New perspectives: Changes at WDW

[DVC-Landbaron]

Sometimes it's refreshing to look at what others (outside the R&N Board) have to say on a given subject. Over on the good-old debate board they are answering the question: Are There Changes at WDW that you really miss?

I think many of us would like to do a little lurking over there. Very insightful.

Have a look Here.

Well, what do you think?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Sounds to me about like it does here...A bunch of old folks remembering "the way it used to be".

To lament the loss of chocolates, turn down service or mickey butter while turning a blind eye to all that has been given in that same time span just doesn't make sense to me...Lets see, no more turn down service; Open The Studios...No more pillow candy; Open Blizzard Beach...No more Mickey butter; Open Animal Kingdom...yeah, I guess I can see the justification after all

 

[Another Voice]

Funny Mr. Pirate, I was under the impression that I paid to get into Blizzard Beach and the Animal Kingdom. I had no idea they were funded by the elimination of service at the deluxe resorts or all those little “magical” benefits us seniors enjoyed back then.

Of course I am very happy to go without the Mickey shaped butter so that I can enter the Disney/MGM Studios for free. I’m glad that The Company had so, so many areas that they can reduce my experience to fund their projects; projects which they so graciously give us without a thought to profit for themselves.

By the way – so that you can enjoy ‘Mission: Space’, Disney is requesting that you bring your own towels next time you stay in the Animal Kingdom Lodge.

 

[airlarry!]

Great points, AV, but I hope your rapier wasn't too sharp for the big meeting this weekend. I would hate to see some external bleeding on the boards.

 

[airlarry!]

Great points, AV, but I hope your rapier wasn't too sharp for the big meeting this weekend. I would hate to see some external bleeding on the boards.

 

[Peter Pirate]

You gotta love it... You know Voice, I think you put more thought into my little analogy than I did, but of course you still got it wrong... That's that's ok though, Mr. Scoop is there to the rescue with the correct POV, once again.

Cry about whats gone & forget whats going on...Oh Scoop, you do tell it right!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

they sound like nice touches, but I'm not sure if some of the "touches" haven't been merely replaced by new "touches" rather than eliminated.

SCOOP!!! Haven't you been listening at all. That is exactly the point!! They eliminate and DO NOT replace!!

I hardly think Eisner & Co. said "Let's screw'em out the Mickey butter so we can open Blizzard Beach" but I also don't think they said "Let's screw'em outta Mickey butter just because we wanta seem'em suffer"

No. Of course not! They got rid of them because they don't get it! It doesn't matter to them. They don't understand the significance. To them they save a quarter of a penny on a pad of butter. They do not comprehend that the elimination of that butter moves them one step closer to the competition, to the mundane and less magical experiences.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

… But another thought on your post, Mr. Scoop!!

I love the Bellevue Room at BW. Just love it. And even without the old radio programs I'd still love it...but with them...ahhh....what a wonderful extra "touch". Sure, it cost a little extra, but it sure is nice.

Now suppose for a moment that on your next trip you go visit the Bellevue Room at BW, but there is no old radio. Hmmm. You think to yourself. Something is missing. A little Disney 'touch' is gone. OK. Well, 'stuff' happens. You casually mention the absence of the radio to a CM, who tells you that the audio device broke down three months ago. And due to recent budget constraints they've decided NOT to repair it. She also looks a little shocked and points out that you are only the second person that noticed, and that there hasn't been one single cancellation because of it!!

You, of course, agree with her and commend Disney on the smart fiscal move. While personally annoying to you, you have to admit it was the smart business move!! I mean, where's the payback! Have I got that right?

 

[Bob O]

I would agree with DVC. Its all about the money. They arent into adding to the guest experience(unless of course a sponsor can be found to pay for it). They used 9/11 as a excuse to get rid of EE. And if you have seen the statements by eisner and his cronies all the talk is of increasing revenue once attendance picks up and nothing of bringing back what was taken away. Their mindset is use the parks as a cashcow to fund their numerous bad business decisions because they realize that alot of fans will blindly follow disney no matter what they do and not look back at all to how things once were and what they have no become. Apparently some people think bigger is always better but i would perfer they had no animal kingdom and used that money to fill out the other parks that badly need a infusion of new rides/attractions.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Flame the person making the point without actually addressing the point. Very effective for those who merely scan the posts...but for us obsessive types...No Good.

I certainly didn't mean to flame, Mr. Scoop. And I did address the point!! I told you, in no uncertain terms, that they do cut those little touches and they DO NOT replace them!! Period!! How more direct can I be?

You've told us that you are not in a position to judge the quality or quantity of those little touches from years past. Fine! Then take my word for it. And the word of all the posters on that other thread! They were there and now they are not!! Again - Period!! And again - How more direct can I be?

But you, on the other hand, did exactly what you accuse me of. What about the radio scenario? Nothing? Silence? Misdirection perhaps?

Rather, I wonder weather even though we don't have "Mickey Margarine" anymore (or do we?) that we might have something as equally subtle yet magical.

Why does it have to come down to an either/or thing for you? I don't get it.

So, take the radio example one step further. Instead of the equipment breaking down, the CM tells you that they've replaced the radio "touch" with a cold towel "touch) at the mini golf! I guess according to the Scoop perspective - all is right with the world. So what if there is no radio. We've got cold towels!!!! Hurray!! The magic isn't dead. Just transformed!!

 

[Another Voice]

The correct quote from Eisner is “Let's screw'em outta Mickey butter because my options are worth **** these days!!!!!!!!!"

Funny, I always thought that the “little touches” were what made Disney special and unique. I guess not. All that’s required is the DISNEY® sticker.

We old folks used to think that Disney was doing a good job when they exceeded our expectations. I guess the new standard is that when we’re not too disappointed by the latest round of budget cuts.

I’d be interested in hearing about all the “extra touches” they’ve added to the guest experience in the last five years. Let’s get a list about all those non-revenue generating bits the Company has added just to be better than the competition.

Any one?

And yes, they’ve been giving away flowers on Mother’s Day and towels on the golf course for decades.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

If the radios died... ...yes, it would be sad.

THAT'S AN ANSWER!?!?! What kind of an answer is that? Come on Scoop, you can do better than that. (Or is it more misdirection?? )

but Baron, you mock the "cold towel" but embrace the "Mickey margarine".

NO!!!! I do not 'mock' at all!!! I embrace all of it!! I don't know how to write this without sounding sarcastic, but believe me, I am VERY sincere when I say: I'm thrilled to pieces that they gave you a cold towel!! I really am!! That is truly a Disney "touch". But what in the world does that have to do with chocolates or Mickey head butter!?!? Why do I have to give up one to have the other?

I've been to Prime Time. My kids LOVE it!! And those stickers are indeed wonderful! Now, I don't want to sound like a Disney snob, but I expect no less from them. And I definitely don't expect to trade in the butter, chocolate, radio experience or cold towels for that 'touch'! We're not talking about ride replacement. We're talking those little extras that sets Disney apart! It is an intricate (if not the most important) part of the 'MAGIC".

Sure, some don't care about cold towels on a hot sunny day but that sure meant a whole lot more to me that slopping "Mickey Margarine" on my baguette.

I'm not the one who says you can't have both, Mr. Scoop!! You keep excusing the elimination of one touch, with the introduction of another. Why are you so willing to trade those TOUCHES? Why are you so willing to settle?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Add to the list, the new headstone Leota, at HM. It's cool. She opens her eyes, glances around and then back to "sleep". Disney didn't need to imagineer this. It probably wasn't too expensive but the point is, they did it...The AP lounge and illuminations area in Epcot. We saw illuminations from the AP area two weeks ago and wow! I guess I never really paid attention to it, but with a nice touch like an AP area, I finally slowed down to watch the show. How about Kidcot? You know the little booths at each Country where the tykes get to make masks with the Countries CM's? Any revenue there? Free fun for tykes sounds good to me...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Add to the list, the new headstone Leota, at HM. It's cool. She opens her eyes, glances around and then back to "sleep". Disney didn't need to imagineer this. It probably wasn't too expensive but the point is, they did it...

I agree Peter!! I haven't seen it, but it sounds cool! So do all the other things on your and Scoop's lists (although some of them can be argued that they do increase revenue). And I hope they keep it up! I see it less and less frequently lately.

I readily and happily admit that I agree with almost every word that comes from AV's keyboard. The operant word being 'almost'. As you know, I don't do lists (sorry AV). Just for the very reason stated in paragraph one. While I agree that some are 'touches' in the true sense of the word, other are clearly not, IMO. And then we start picking apart lists instead of discussing the root of the problem. And the root of this problem, Mr. Pirate and Mr. Scoop, is why does that headstone cost us the chocolate or butter for example (or any other 'cut' in the past twenty years)? I don't understand the rational. Please explain the concept to me.

 

[raidermatt]

Baron, maybe I'm being presumptuous in speaking for Scoop, but I don't think he is implying that touches have to taken away in order for others to be added.

What he is saying, or at least what I am saying, is that its hard to believe that nothing that would have been described as a touch in 1955 ever disappeared until current management took over. Are you really saying that no touches of any kind were ever eliminated or went away?

The point some of us are trying to get across is not that we think current touches were traded for old ones, but that things do change, and they always have. It sounds like you expect every touch ever added to never go away, and new ones to be added all the time. That's your right, but even Walt had to make choices, and its unrealistic to expect any management to be immune from those choices. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but at one point, wasn't DL closed on Mondays? Not a very magical touch for those who couldn't make it any other day...)

It truly sounds as though you are expecting current Disney management to live up to a philosophy that never was...


Here are my contributions to "the list". My last two Disney trips were in 9/00 to WDW, and 8/01 to DLResort. Here's a few touches that come to mind (besides all of the pre-requisite smiling and helpful CMs):


Free taxi (including tip) to Golf courses at WDW

Course personnel offer to clean clubs after rounds.

"Towel" animals left by Mousekeeping on several occasions at CBR.

Photographer at DL entrance took pictures of our group with every camera we had (with a smile).

CM approached me while I was walking in DL with map open and offered his services in helping me find anything in the park.

Upon returning to our room at CBR on my son's 2nd birthday, we found an autographed photo of Disney characters, and a plush Simba.

 

[All Aboard]

Back to the original question. There doesn't really seem to be much substance to that thread. Most people have responded with menu items that they wish were still there. For me, the loss of EE is about the only thing I really fume over. The 10 am opening of FW kinda stinks. The addition of Dinorama when AK needs something more to pull it up by the bootstraps baffles me. They seem to be correcting the JIYI mistake (hopefully). Outside of that, I'm not too terribly upset over changes/losses. It's those things that put me in car #2. It's just at the margin where I see the trouble. And, it's been pretty recent. 90+% of what I've always loved about WDW is still there. And that includes the extras that I don't get anywhere else.

I guess I would need to see a more comprehensive list of losses (more than those whose time had just "come".) One poster mentioned the Magic Shop and the Penny Arcade. The Magic shop was always a "skip past" to me, never had any appeal, nor did it really seem to fit well with the "turn of the century" theme of Main Street. At least the Athletic Shop is themed properly, and it makes a solid transition to Casey's.

 

[hopemax]

First, system busy message...ARGH!

I'm glad to see this "list" stuff. I was going to suggest that the Car 1's with short Disney park histories make a list of the special touches that are important to them. Write it down, tuck it in a file somewhere and 3 years down the road, 5 years re-examine the list and see if those things are still there, are they no longer important to you, what new "touches" are out there, etc.

My fear for the newbie WDW vacationers is that 5 years from now, you'll go to the park with expectations like "it's a hot day, thank goodness they have those towels on the mini-golf" and when you get there, they won't offer you one and when you ask for one the CM will look at you as if you've made an unreasonable request. Or if your wife will want to go on the free garden tour at the YC/BC she'll find out that the free tour is only for people staying in the suites or it has been discontinued. Of course I imagine, you'll come back to the board and comment on your disappointment and a newbie vacationer will jump on you for your inappropriate response to such a minor thing. Disney is a for-profit company you can't expect something like that for free, never mind that you remember the days when those things were for free. Waxing nostalgia, get over it already.

In the carpool thread 65% of respondees believe the magic has faded. People disagree to the degree and whether it's fixable. But 65% are feeling some type of "back of the neck tingling" that something is different. I don't know what that means, but if I were in Car 1, I think I would at least question that maybe there is something to this decline theory even if I can't see it. After all, how many times have Car 3ers have had their hands slapped with the "Just because *YOU* feel differently, doesn't mean that's the way it is." How come Car 1 people never have to think that, perhaps, they are the ones in the minority?

 

[raidermatt]

But 65% are feeling some type of "back of the neck tingling" that something is different. I don't know what that means, but if I were in Car 1, I think I would at least question that maybe there is something to this decline theory even if I can't see it.

Sure, I appreciate the opinions of Cars 2, 3 and 4. Their thoughts help me view things with a more critical eye. But I draw my own conclusions, and they are just as valid as anyone else's.

I also know the old theory that if you have one happy customer, they tell one other person. An unhappy customer tells 10. I don't know if that ratio is really true, but experience tells me the concept is a valid one.

I also know that the "good ole days" concept is a valid one as well. In other words, when we are harking back to the days of our youth and lamenting the good ole days, its frequently us that have changed and not whatever we are examining.

So while I'm interested in seeing the results of these poles, and the comments of those who are less than happy, I hardy view them as anything resembling proof that things are as bad as some claim.

 

[Peter Pirate]

hopemax, what an unfair representation of Car #1'ers. To my knowledge Scoop is the only "newbie" and I believe you can concur that he's "smarter than the average bear". As for me, I've been visitng since WDW opened, so when is it that you expect I'll start feeling your pain (as LB likes to say)?

Sure, I will acquiesce to Landbaron and acknowledge that there are things missing from previous experiences that I miss, but I'm a big boy, I can look at the big picture and accept that sometimes things don't go my way - even if they were magic, plus I'm always elated by new surpises that would make any whining about missing the old touches seem, well whiney...

Sometimes things have to go away. Brother Curling misses EE and while I've NEVER availed myself the use of it, I DO feel his pain and while he gets really "hot" discussing it, I am totally sure he understands the rationale (i.e. Disney's official explanation - although I'm not sure he believes it)...

 

[Eeyore2U]

In the carpool thread 65% of respondees believe the magic has faded. People disagree to the degree and whether it's fixable. But 65% are feeling some type of "back of the neck tingling" that something is different. I don't know what that means, but if I were in Car 1, I think I would at least question that maybe there is something to this decline theory even if I can't see it. After all, how many times have Car 3ers have had their hands slapped with the "Just because *YOU* feel differently, doesn't mean that's the way it is." How come Car 1 people never have to think that, perhaps, they are the ones in the minority?

I am a diehard Car #1'er. I was just at WDW and looked hard for the fading of the magic or things that weren't right. I had my contacts in so my "Disney Colored "glasses weren't on. I'm still looking for the lost magic. Is this discussion more of, I wanted WDW to stay as it was in 1971? Times change. I think Disney has stayed the course and stayed to their values while trying to stay current.

I said this another reply to the good Baron and I'll say it here. I believe if Walt were here today you would see pretty much the same things being done to keep his business viable. I'm pretty sure the big picture was more important then the individual thought to Walt. He wanted to build Disneyland so he sold himself and his product to a television network. Life today isn't what it was in Walt's heyday. I can only imagine what he would have done with CoP as a virtual ride.

I guess my point is, if I expected WDW to be the same as my other trips I wouldn't spend the money and just look at my photo albums.