New perspectives: Changes at WDW

[DisDuck]

This thread reminds me of the late 2000 and 2001 thread on the same topic. Where is JeffH and his many lists when you need him. Since by June it will be a 2year gap in my visits (I don't know how I survived it - oh yes I went to DL last year for my fix - It helped). My not so tweener 17 yo daughter wants to go every year. I want to go every year. Gee, something must be drawing us back. Maybe to visit my 'money'

I have been to Universal 3 or 4 times and IOA twice over the last years. Give me WDW anytime. I finished IOA in 6 hours and Universal in 8. And that was with a line at Spiderman. The lands in IOA just don't flow like MK and unless you like to be turned inside-out you are pretty much left with Suess only. Also, those 'great' rides known as Pterodon Flyer and Tricerotops Encounter.

Three months to my next visit and I have already begun my countdown.

Long Live Car#1.

 

[Bob O]

I think alot of people are taking Universal not as serious as they should at disney's peril! When the younger generations grow up who always watched nick/rugrats etc and not the disney channel will they always switch back to disney, which is considered their parents park?? I dont think mine will as they already prefer Universal with its more exciting rides/attractions and using their movie lineup to add more updated attractions/rides that are more compelling to their generation.
DIsney hasnt done a good job at all of updating their outdated rides/shows, most of epcot-future world is dated with old shows as is alot of mgm unless star tours/Indiana jones is still considered cutting egde. And disney shows no willingness to improve their product but content to rest on their laurels and people who will blindly follow them just encourage them to contuine this behavior to maximze park profits at the expense of guest experience. Which explains disney opening a half day park like Animal Kingdom yet still charge full price and now to try to boost attedance by adding up souped up carny rides rather then actually completing the park like it was orginally supposed to be. Then they dont learn from their mistake and do the same thing, but worse at DCA. But in a foreign country where disney doesnt pay the bills they apparently open a complete park from day one and have to turn people away because attendance is high if press reports are accurate.
This is a circular debate that wont be solved but the amen chorus of disney apparently is unwilling to push disney to improve itself but is content with whatever small bone disney will throw their way. And with that attitude we we contuine to see Universal improve its product and disney stagnate.

 

[Eeyore2U]

Bob,

Are you going to put a 6 y/o on "The Hulk"? Maybe the niche is tweeners for US/IOA but neither are a kids park. Disney bridges generations and IMO US/IOA caters to tweeners and thrill seekers.

 

[Bob O]

Eyeore2U If my 6 yr olds met the height limit, yes he would be on the ride. Disney IMHO appeals way too much to kids and not to the overall population. Universal has a more adult appeal which i truely enjoy and feel disney could learn from. Their is no reason a park cant appeal to all age groups, but the more thrills the better!!!

 

[Eeyore2U]

And what happens if your 6 or 8 or 10 y/o isn't a daredevil. Then IOA is lost on him. I think you overestimate US/IOA. We did both in one day with a 15 and 16 y/o a couple weeks ago. It reminds of a Canobie Lake Park (amusement park a mile from my front door) on steriods.

 

[OnWithTheShow]

Wow, I am gone for a few days and look at the insanity that erupts. After spending the better part of an hour wading through this 6 page headache of a thread. I still have no idea what was said, and DEFINITELY dont try explaining it to me. So here is my 2 cents (or several dollars depending on your point of view). The gas torches at Polynesian are coming back. I always found it unerving to cut into mickey even if he was in butter form. There is a definite decrease in ammenities at the resorts. The attitude now (as shown with valet parking) is "everyone else is doing it so why not us?". Your average cast member is still willing to go the extra step (the champagne and gifts on anniversaries and birthdays) but the higher up you go the more you lose touch with that feeling.

 

[raidermatt]

Forget the 6 year-old, what am I supposed to do with my 3 year-old at Universal? What about my wife, who doesn't like coasters or big thrill rides either?

Disney has never aggressively gone after the tweeners and daredevils because to do so would be detrimental to their overall target, families. Putting in a couple of major coasters in the exisiting parks would still leave them inferior to Universal in the thrill area, and would hurt them with families. Does Disney need to develop new and innovative rides? Yes. Should they be trying to out-thrill Universal or Six Flags? No. (At least not in the current parks.)

I also wouldn't worry too much about kids watching Nickolodeon cartoons. My cartoon watching years (70's), had little to no Disney in them either. They just weren't available to me. It was Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Popeye, Woody Woodpecker, etc. Sure, I enjoyed them, but do I have a craving to watch them now? No way. They have no heart. I'd like to see Disney getting Mickey and the gang out there more, and they are through the House of Mouse. But 25 years from now, new parents aren't going to be getting teary-eyed at watching a Jimmy Neutron cartoon with their kids.

Disney IMHO appeals way too much to kids...

...the more thrills the better!!!

Diseny appeals to families, and that's how they got to where they are. Thrills are a dime a dozen and can be had by the fistfull at Six Flags, Paramount, Busch Gardens, etc. If Disney were to take the thrill route, why would I go to Orlando when there is a Six Flags and a Paramount park both within an hour from my house?

 

[Bob O]

Putting in a couple of coasters in the park would be what Universal has now. They only have 2 Coasters in their parks, 3 if you count the kiddie coaster (and maybe 4 if you count DD as two separate rides). So disney isnt far behind in quantity but they are far behind in quality of the coasters, Magic Kingdom has 2 coasters itself. I think the younger generation as they grow up will not be impressed with alot of the rides disney has, they will seem to them outdated. But with the new technology of rides such as spiderman/flying/mib coasters etc their is alot out there for disney to work with and do a better job at than other parks but apparently they dont care to do so at their own peril!
I think disney has to work at getting the teenage crowd interested in their parks because when they become adults you cant assume that they will all of a sudden fall in love with disney when there is little connection now. I believe in the family concept but thats no reason disney cant have world class thrill rides or more adult type shows for a younger/thrill orientated crowd.

 

[raidermatt]

I think disney has to work at getting the teenage crowd interested in their parks because when they become adults you cant assume that they will all of a sudden fall in love with disney when there is little connection now.

I really do understand the point, I'm just saying that this is an old issue for Disney. And unfortunately, its very difficult to go after the big thrill-seekers without alienating the families that are the heart of Disney's guests. Take Rock n Roller Coaster for example. Some would argue that it is TOO thrill-oriented for Disney, but I think its still tame enough that many families will still enjoy it. If they replace it with a monster coaster though, many more families would not want anything to do with it. They would rather the money be spent on a ride they can all enjoy.

I do hear you, Bob, I love coasters too. But not at the expense of spending time with my family in the parks. I'd rather have a new dark ride, parades/fireworks, etc. These things can still be technologically advanced.

Again, I'd be more receptive to a 5th gate that housed most of the big thrill stuff.

 

[larworth]

I have a feeling this thread is not in Reedy Creek anymore

Universal definitely has a different target audience. “Not that there is anything wrong with that”, it is just different. Most of their rides are geared towards an older audience. Seems pretty logical for them to try to serve a different niche/genre, rather than taking Disney head on.

Is Disney really short on thrill rides? I guess it all depends on ones definition.

Disney US/IOA

Splash - Jurassic
RnR --- Hulk *
Space - Dueling *
ToT ---- Dr Doom
Kali ---- Popeye *
StarWars - BTTF *
BodyWars
TestTrack - Dudley
Dinosaur
BTMRR
Mission Space

For this list the average is about the same (4 per park). Now, several of the US offerings are kicked up a notch (*) over their Disney counterparts and maybe this is the biggest difference.

 

[Planogirl]

Universal appeals to an older crowd? My son is just 9 so if he is representative then Universal appeals to anyone 9 and up?

Don't get me wrong because I don't like most roller coasters. The RnR Coaster is about as wild as I get. But I've done research on Universal and there seems to be very few coasters in those parks. So we can go to Universal for a few days, Sea World for one day, the Space Center for another day, maybe revisit Gatorland and Cypress Gardens for old times sakes, visit the beach (oh yes, the beach ) and maybe Disney too. And Disney doesn't have competition? I haven't even mentioned the very wonderful Busch Gardens.

None of them match up to Disney right now primarily because of this Disney "magic" we seem to have so much trouble describing. If the magic fades then the others come closer particularly for the less devoted. That's what worries me.

 

[Captain Crook]

Planogirl, look at the numbers. I recently looked over some recent trip reports and it seems US/IOA isn't too full (and still offering that bogus FOTL promo - that should tell you something). SeaWorld & Bush Gardens are still offering year round return entrance for 49.95 (a one day admission - What does that tell you about their crowds?). SeaWorld is a GREAT park, but hard to enjoy more than once every couple of years, IMO. Busch is a hodgepodge & their last attempt at 'stardom', 'Rhinorally' has been nothing but a headache and an unkept promise.

US/IOA...I can't for the life of me see how you could "spend a few days" there. As for your 9 year old liking IOA better, well, of course there are exceptions to the rule...I have told you about my "tweener" who MUCH prefers WDW to IOA...The opposite exception, perhaps...

As you mentioned, none of these Parks comes close to the Disney ambiance and the gap isn't thinning, IMO. To be sure, Disney (even the Parks) do have problems but the return of some of the things taken away is a great step forward (another thread). But the fact that the other guys are still forced to offer huge discounts and absurd offers shows how desperate they are to try and tap any percentage of the Disney market.

Note: I call FOTL "absurd" because it's a stop-gap measure only. Any true, sustained success of the Hotels and Parks will result in the elimination of this perq.

 

[All Aboard]

The thrill-factor comparison can be viewed another way. How many attractions have height limitations and how tall are those restrictions?

People under 54" can ride everything at WDW but are restricted from 2 attractions at UO

Under 52" still can ride everything at WDW but are out of 3 at UO.

Under 48" - WDW 1, UO 3

Under 44" - WDW 3 - UO 4

Under 42" - WDW 3 - UO 7

The thrill attractions at UO are generally more restricitive than at WDW. The majority of attractions at WDW that have height restrictions are capped at 40" (Dinosaur, Splash, Big Thunder, Tower, Star Tours, Body Wars). This seems to be an indication that the thrill attractions at UO are more "thrilling" than those at WDW and are designed to restrict more younger guests from experiencing them. That's the tradeoff.

Of course, the list of attractions that CAN be experienced by the younger guests is much larger for WDW than UO. Simply because 1) there are 4 parks v. 3 and 2) Magic Kingdom has SO many attractions.

Capturing that age 9-18 market segment has been difficult for WDW for quite some time. From my perspective, capturing the "family" market is a far smarter strategy. The breadth and depth of WDW offerings make it the destination in Central Florida. WDW is going to lose a day or two to other parks for a PORTION of its guests, not nearly all of them.

The guests at USF/IOA are distinctly different than those at WDW. Far more locals and far more American teens without adults. But these are not the big ticket guests. These are not the guests paying $200 - $300 a night for accomdations. True, UO has added on-site resorts. But the the total number of rooms in all three of their resorts is fewer than Port Orleans (RS & FQ).

UO is certainly competition, but not a major threat to WDW. One tell-tale sign comes when the rain starts to fall. Suddenly, 100's of bright yellow ponchos adorned with Mickey are strolling around IOA. Seems the Mouse is still the king of Central Florida.

 

[raidermatt]

scoop- Thanks.... I knew I should have went the consulting route...

gcurling's comparison is exactly what I am talking about. I was just too lazy to actually count the rides. This comparison shows my family has to split up on far more rides in two parks at Universal than we do in 4 parks at WDW. Also, gcurling's point about the more restrictive rides being at Universal impacts my wife, as she will do tamer thrill rides, but not the harsher ones.

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but its clear Disney has a strategy in mind and it has served them well. Especially when one considers gcurlings point about spending on accomodations, and I'm sure it applies to merchandise, food, etc.

 

[Bob O]

I think people understimate Universal and have to realize that they havent been around as long as disney has, they have room to grow and also have a good amount of movies to use to create rides/attractions in the future and their live action segment has outshone disney who apparently think so little of their live action movies that i cant think of a new/recentactionmovie they have converted into a attraction. Their was talk of doing something based on Amraggadeon but that apparently has fallen thru.
These kids who are 9 thru 18 yrs old will grow up and i dont think you can assume they are always going to go to disney as much as we have. They will have their own childhood memories and if they have better memories/more recent ones at Universal that can cut into the amount of days they stay at either site, escpecially when Universal does decide to build a 3rd park.
I can easily spend several days at Universal, as easily sometimes as at wdw. Disney's great attractions are top notch but so many have gone stagnat and are in need of replacement but there is little indication its going to happen.

 

[Conure]

Well, after reading some posts, I think the general problem is that Disney has spent so many years of exceding expectations, that now when they simply try to meet them, many Disney fans don't think it is enough. So, actually, years of topping expectations has lead more people to have more lofty standards, so I believe Disney should strive to excede those, because that is what has made so many people enjoy Disney.

 

[All Aboard]

BobO says:

These kids who are 9 thru 18 yrs old will grow up and i dont think you can assume they are always going to go to disney as much as we have. They will have their own childhood memories and if they have better memories/more recent ones at Universal

I grew up in Virginia. I spent far more time during my teens at Busch Gardens and Kings Dominion than I did at WDW. I loved those parks because I wanted maximum thrills and had general disregard for the qualities of "magic". Even as a young adult living in North Florida when USF opened, I tended to go there quite a bit (even compared to WDW) because of the more adult orientation.

Now, as a father with a family of his own, most of our vacation dollars are spent at WDW. It's the place that gives us the most family fun. Not only because of past memories, but it's ability to deliver today.

Disney's great attractions are top notch but so many have gone stagnat and are in need of replacement

OK, I'd really like to see a list. Just which stagnant attractions do think need to be replaced?

 

[Conure]

Bob O,
You can't possibly think kids think Disney World is boring in contrast to Universal. For your proof, I am twelve years old! I love Disney and would rather spend a vacation there than at Universal. If I wanted "exciting" stuff, I would go to the thrill ride dominated small-scale theme park about 1 hour away from my house. It's a well-known falsehood to me, because right off the top of my head two of my friends who are both going to Orlando in April and are going to spend time in Disney World. I also have many friends who prefer Disney World over any other park, and love going there. Enough with the stereotypes and think about what you're saying.

 

[Bob O]

Gcurling i love the magic but also love the thrills so i go to the type of parks you mentioned where i love the thrill rides. But theirs no reason disney cant make thrill lovers and magic lovers happy. People talk of Universal as being thrill parks but they dont have that many more thrill attractions than disney, they are just superior. Disney in Magic Kingdom makes a buzz ride which is ok, but done on the cheap using the same bldg etc. While Universal makes a great attrzction like MIB, not on the cheap and using the latest in technology which is something disney was known for at one time.
Thinking off the top of my head of outdated rides(wont count attractions that have been removed and not replace)
MK -Tiki Room/Country Bears/COP
Epcot-Universe of Energy/Living Seas/Most of the films in the countries(most are orginal)/Body Wars/JIYI(not old/just bad!)
MGM-Star Tours/Indiana Jones/Back Stage Tour/Canyon ride/Animation film W/Walter Cronkite
AK nothing is old but only a half day park.
Their may be more but those come to mind off the topf of my head.
Conure I think you are right!!!! Disney has exceeded expectations in the past, i think Universal has been the park to come up with innovative rides/attractions that disney used to do but is content to rest on their laurels. My fear is disney doesnt want to push the envelope due to cheapness and believes we will come back so they are content to take us for granted.t

 

[All Aboard]

Disney in Magic Kingdom makes a buzz ride which is ok, but done on the cheap using the same bldg etc. While Universal makes a great attrzction like MIB,

Bob, you've selected a perfect example here. MIB has a minimum height requirement greater than that of Tower of Terror and Test Track, plus it scares the willies out of alot of kids. Buzz on the other hand is an attraction that virtually every single member of the family can enjoy together, and is every bit as popular as MIB. In fact, had longer queues than MIB the last couple of times I was at both parks.