Even Disney Is Worried About the High Cost of a Disney Vacation

[Cfabar1]

Here are the two survey questions as they were displayed to guests:

View attachment 937490

I have the entire survey if needed.

Of course it is needed... or at least other questions equally interesting to this one are

 

[SCDVC2000]

Wall Street journal article….

The Happiest Place on Earth has long felt like one of the most expensive spots on the planet for many Americans—but the allure of a magical family vacation kept visitors streaming in. Then, as postpandemic demand soared, Disney put price hikes into overdrive, putting vacations at its theme parks out of reach for many American families. Attendance growth has slowed over the past few years, and even some families that were once regulars are canceling their pilgrimages.

One-day adult passes to Disneyland broke the $200 mark for the first time in October. It now costs $206 on the most popular days at the theme park, more than $100 more than the price of admission on the lowest-cost day.

Five years ago, the skip-the-line feature FastPass was free. Now visitors choose from three different tiers of Lightning Lane passes for the privilege—the most expensive reaching $449 a person a day. Doing without Lightning Lane can mean spending an hour or more waiting in line for the most popular rides, eating up visitors’ vacation time.

Some inside Disney worry that the company has become addicted to price hikes and has reached the limits of what middle-class Americans can afford, according to people who have worked on park pricing. Internal discussions over whether Disney parks may be losing their grip on the hearts and wallets of families with young kids have become more frequent, some of those people said.

https://www.wsj.com/business/disney-parks-price-hikes-consumers-0bf4dbd6

Unpopular onion here but honestly I would like everything to double in price overnight- decreases crowds and it could lead to less frequent but more special trips for everyone

 

[Mirabell Rose]

P pop pop


No, those are subsets of households. It clearly defines a household as everyone sharing a living space.

No, each of the non related people are a householder and as such a household.

 

[LAS2AMS]

No, each of the non related people are a householder and as such a household.

From the link above, the Census (which BLS data is based on) defines household as:

“A household includes the related family members and all the unrelated people, if any, such as lodgers, foster children, wards, or employees who share the housing unit. A person living alone in a housing unit, or a group of unrelated people sharing a housing unit such as partners or roomers, is also counted as a household. The count of households excludes group quarters. There are two major categories of households, "family" and "nonfamily". (See definitions of Family household and Nonfamily household).”

Family household is a subset that is included in household.

 

[reddog21]

My “intent to recommend” has taken a nosedive the last few years. We still love it, mostly, but we don’t recommend it, and in fact we’re staying at our DVC resorts and commuting to UO this summer. A lot of customer lifetime value that Disney should be gobbling up with my family of 6 is leaking out. A shame!

That's is the circle of business, where there's a family that leaves there's a family that takes it's place.

 

[Minnie1222]

That's is the circle of business, where there's a family that leaves there's a family that takes it's place.

Exactly! Especially with the current population growth rate. I don't know why some people still believe that their genetic lineage can make or break Disney.

 

[tjkraz]

That's is the circle of business, where there's a family that leaves there's a family that takes it's place.

Ideally, yes. I guess the question is whether Disney is losing more than it is gaining. (Though in truth, I suspect it's always a sliding scale.)

I've spent a fair amount of time reading comments on this WSJ story over the past couple of days. One of the recurring themes seems to be frequent visitors who reached their tipping point. I don't want to sweep that under the rug, but I wonder how much of it is natural fatigue. People who fell in love with the Disney Parks in the last 10-15 years and proceeded to take 1 or 2 or 3 trips, year after year. That's a LOTTA Disney. They have never added attractions at a rate that would satisfy this group. The last 3-4 years actually haven't been bad (Remy, GOTG, TRON, Tiana, Country Bears, Moana), rather it's the next couple years that are looking pretty lean. And maybe that's part of people's decision making--seeing fewer reasons to turn out in 2025 and 2026.

Nevertheless, for this group, if Disney announced tomorrow that they were bringing back DME, does that really move the needle? If the Citizens of Hollywood were brought back, how many customers would immediately do a 180? Do these small steps move a large number of people from "I'm done with this" to "yeah, Grand Floridian, here I come!"?

Tom Bricker pointed out how Disney responded to past criticism, reversing the parking fees and adding free waterpark entry. That was damage control, for sure. They also brought back the advance scheduling of FP (LLMP). Some people choose to air such a massive laundry list of complaints that it feels like nothing short of a Time Machine would actually satisfy them.

But those are the super fans. Where does average Joe fall in all of this? Every time I enter a Disney park, I'm surrounded by thousands of people who don't SEEM massively disgruntled. (Plus a few who seem angry at everything, yet still choose to be there.)

As a pretty avid fan of the Disney Parks for at least 25 years, the pending loss of Muppets and the Rivers of America both sadden me a bit. And even the original RNR (though that's more as a 1990s-era fan of Aerosmith...the attraction is obviously pretty long in the tooth.) I truly hope they find a suitable venue for Muppetvision. I can't really picture MK without the river. But I also can't bring myself to "old man screams at clouds" level of anger and discontentment. In life, change is inevitable. (Personally, the greatest fatigue I experience comes from the bloggers and influencers and commenters who want to pick nits with every single thing Disney does. I don't have the energy to get upset over the number of characters / IP in EPCOT. Or whether a beige resort room wall is somehow less "themed" than a green wall. And I'm inclined to believe that 99% of the people visiting WDW feel similarly.)

I recently returned from a 5 night visit in which we only bought 2-day park tickets. On some levels, that was surely a response to Disney's pricing changes over the years. We also bought LLMP for one of the two days. I'm not going to do a spreadsheet comparison to 2015-era pricing and policies, and determine if Disney "won" or "lost" on my family. I'm not angry at Disney for "forcing" us to have 3 non-park days in our trip. We had a favorable experience on the two park days, so I'll leave it at that.

Surely Disney doesn't want to lose the super fans. But in my experiences, even that group has trouble agreeing on what they actually want.

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

Exactly! Especially with the current population growth rate. I don't know why some people still believe that their genetic lineage can make or break Disney.

?
This isn’t about my family; it’s about the several dozen families I’ve influenced to deprioritize Disney World in their queue of family vacations. Those are generally the “rite of passage” one trip in a lifetime folks too.

 

[Minnie1222]

?
This isn’t about my family; it’s about the several dozen families I’ve influenced to deprioritize Disney World in their queue of family vacations. Those are generally the “rite of passage” one trip in a lifetime folks too.

I know!

 

[DizFanFamily]

Ideally, yes. I guess the question is whether Disney is losing more than it is gaining. (Though in truth, I suspect it's always a sliding scale.)

I've spent a fair amount of time reading comments on this WSJ story over the past couple of days. One of the recurring themes seems to be frequent visitors who reached their tipping point. I don't want to sweep that under the rug, but I wonder how much of it is natural fatigue. People who fell in love with the Disney Parks in the last 10-15 years and proceeded to take 1 or 2 or 3 trips, year after year. That's a LOTTA Disney. They have never added attractions at a rate that would satisfy this group. The last 3-4 years actually haven't been bad (Remy, GOTG, TRON, Tiana, Country Bears, Moana), rather it's the next couple years that are looking pretty lean. And maybe that's part of people's decision making--seeing fewer reasons to turn out in 2025 and 2026.

Nevertheless, for this group, if Disney announced tomorrow that they were bringing back DME, does that really move the needle? If the Citizens of Hollywood were brought back, how many customers would immediately do a 180? Do these small steps move a large number of people from "I'm done with this" to "yeah, Grand Floridian, here I come!"?

Tom Bricker pointed out how Disney responded to past criticism, reversing the parking fees and adding free waterpark entry. That was damage control, for sure. They also brought back the advance scheduling of FP (LLMP). Some people choose to air such a massive laundry list of complaints that it feels like nothing short of a Time Machine would actually satisfy them.

But those are the super fans. Where does average Joe fall in all of this? Every time I enter a Disney park, I'm surrounded by thousands of people who don't SEEM massively disgruntled. (Plus a few who seem angry at everything, yet still choose to be there.)

As a pretty avid fan of the Disney Parks for at least 25 years, the pending loss of Muppets and the Rivers of America both sadden me a bit. And even the original RNR (though that's more as a 1990s-era fan of Aerosmith...the attraction is obviously pretty long in the tooth.) I truly hope they find a suitable venue for Muppetvision. I can't really picture MK without the river. But I also can't bring myself to "old man screams at clouds" level of anger and discontentment. In life, change is inevitable. (Personally, the greatest fatigue I experience comes from the bloggers and influencers and commenters who want to pick nits with every single thing Disney does. I don't have the energy to get upset over the number of characters / IP in EPCOT. Or whether a green resort room wall is superior to a beige wall. But maybe that's just me.)

I recently returned from a 5 night visit in which we only bought 2-day park tickets. On some levels, that was surely a response to Disney's pricing changes over the years. We also bought LLMP for one of the two days. I'm not going to do a spreadsheet comparison to 2015-era pricing and policies, and determine if Disney "won" or "lost" on my family. I'm not angry at Disney for "forcing" us to have 3 non-park days in our trip. We had a favorable experience on the two park days, so I'll leave it at that.

Surely Disney doesn't want to lose the super fans. But in my experiences, even that group has trouble agreeing on what they actually want.

Spot on!
The other thing I keep thinking is all of us here are super fans. We know Disney inside and out. Most of us have been there multiple times over the last 20+ years so we have experienced every little change that has happened. However, when I go into a park (which doesn't happen as often anymore) I enjoy looking at all the people around me. The vast majority of them have that "first-time expression" (my favorite). I expect 95% of the people in the parks are not "regulars" (DL may be a bit different). They may have been there more than once - but years apart. They are not going to see every little change. Maybe they realize MDE is gone, but uber/lyft are so much more accessible now that it's an easy change. FP is not free anymore, but they probably were not FP Ninjas, and being able to get them from their phone (yes at a cost) is a nice trade from hiking all over the park...Streetmosphere - they probably forgot about them or just figured they didn't run into them...None of us are complaining that we have to buy a ticket for full admission to the park, and can't just buy tickets for each ride we want to ride. Time is on Disney's side with all the changes.
I too want it to be cheaper and less crowded, but that just isn't going to happen.

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

I know!

And Tom is so right that families are taking the advice of friends from their kid’s school, church, little league baseball team, orange theory class etc. 1000x over the word of a YouTube vlogger (many of whom are seemingly in a very different stage of life!).

 

[Brian Noble]

I wonder how much of it is natural fatigue.

I suspect it is not just fatigue, but also a change in the way people perceive their experience---a change that is more or less inevitable.

Disney is in the business of selling happiness. That's not the same as "Disney wants me, personally, to be happy," but it is easy to confuse the two. And because Disney is a world-class emotional manipulator, they work hard to give me the impression that I, personally, am important to them. They are usually quite successful at this, particularly at the beginning.

But I 'm not important to Disney. I'm just another customer.

And, eventually, that becomes clear to everyone. When it does, a pretty significant period of disillusionment sets in. Some people call it a day there. Others come out the other side understanding that this is just a business relationship, but one that can still be a lot of fun.

 

[clarker99]

I suspect it is not just fatigue, but also a change in the way people perceive their experience---a change that is more or less inevitable.

Disney is in the business of selling happiness. That's not the same as "Disney wants me, personally, to be happy," but it is easy to confuse the two. And because Disney is a world-class emotional manipulator, they work hard to give me the impression that I, personally, am important to them. They are usually quite successful at this, particularly at the beginning.

But I 'm not important to Disney. I'm just another customer.

And, eventually, that becomes clear to everyone. When it does, a pretty significant period of disillusionment sets in. Some people call it a day there. Others come out the other side understanding that this is just a business relationship, but one that can still be a lot of fun.

Far to rational of a take, Brian. Lol.

 

[RivShore]

From the National Household Travel Survey Summer Travel:

HOW FAR WE TRAVEL​

• The average summer long-distance trip is 284 miles one-way.
• More than three out of four (78 percent) summer trips are 50-249 miles in length. We also travel:
  • one out of 10 (11 percent) trips — 250-400 miles
  • one out of 20 (5 percent) trips — 500-999 miles
  • one out of 20 (5 percent) trips — 1,000+ miles
• (Totals do not add to 100 percent due to rounding.)

I don't have any reason to believe spring/fall/winter travel distances is going to be that much different.

ETA: In an attempt to answer a potential follow-up question, the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Average Domestic Airline Itinerary Fare tracker says flights to Orlando average $270 per person at the moment.

For a 3-person household that's $810, which prices out 40% of US households right off the top.

I look at that travel data and conclude that well over the majority of Americans would not even consider a trip to WDW. Every major population center (outside of ones in Florida) is around that 1,000 mile + mark. Maybe they are correctly targeting the upper income group that makes those longer trips regularly or maybe this broad data is just too broad for any solid conclusions.

 

[Minnie1222]

This isn’t about my family; it’s about the several dozen families I’ve influenced to deprioritize Disney World in their queue of family vacations. Those are generally the “rite of passage” one trip in a lifetime folks too.

Enjoy your quest.

 

[lentesta]

I look at that travel data and conclude that well over the majority of Americans would not even consider a trip to WDW. Every major population center (outside of ones in Florida) is around that 1,000 mile + mark. Maybe they are correctly targeting the upper income group that makes those longer trips regularly or maybe this broad data is just too broad for any solid conclusions.

I agree that the drive is far too long for most people.

I think Disney's strategy is encapsulated by what then-CEO Bob Chapek said on an earnings call. To paraphrase: They make more money from a family from Denver than from an annual passholder.

I took that to mean that they were focusing first on the well-off families who could afford their prices. The annual passholders (and IMHO, Floridians and those within a short drive) who stay less and spend less are used to fill in the gaps.

 

[tjkraz]

I took that to mean that they were focusing first on the well-off families who could afford their prices. The annual passholders (and IMHO, Floridians and those within a short drive) who stay less and spend less are used to fill in the gaps.

Wasn't that always the case, though? Even 40 years ago when you could get a night at the Poly for $39, were staycations even a thing?

In a sense, I see the logic in carving out some of these add-ons so they aren't built into the cost for everyone. If only 30% of people are using DME and 20% actually need a new MagicBand for their trip, why build the cost of "free" transportation and wristbands into the cost of every guest? DME had to be massively expensive between the actual operating costs and the passenger fees they paid to MCO.

(Disney probably should have reached some deal with Mears to be the official airport transportation vendor, let them keep playing videos on the buses, and occasionally bundle "free transportation" into their promotions like they do "free dining.")

That said, there are areas where Disney could/should "take one for the team" and add some value. I've never really understood why resort package delivery hasn't returned. Everyone has that moment where they decide not to buy something because they don't want to carry it around. And then either forget to buy it later or change mind. I'm sure it's a logistical headache to manage, but at worst, it has to come pretty close to paying for itself.

Same with room service. Between the high menu prices and service fees, you can't have a couple CMs on standby at Deluxe resorts to handle orders & deliveries during peak meal periods?

 

[HokieRaven5]

A family of 4 in that 3rd quintile just isn’t going to be a target for Disney (or really probably most travel based entities). I think just Cost of living for the lowest cost state (WV) starts around $82K for a family of 4 which is above the average household salary for the group.

Couples or individuals in the 3rd quintile would probably be more likely to be visitors to Disney. Could why there’s also been a subsequent increase in alcohol offerings across the parks, or the increase in special ticketed events.

For younger families they’re more likely to market to the upper 40% that have potentially more at their disposal, that’s still not a small population group.

 

[lentesta]

A family of 4 in that 3rd quintile just isn’t going to be a target for Disney (or really probably travel based corporations). I think just Cost of living for the lowest cost state (WV) starts around $82K for a family of 4 which is above the average household salary for the group.

Couples or individuals in the 3rd quintile would probably be more likely to be visitors to Disney. Could why there’s also been a subsequent increase in alcohol offerings across the parks, or the increase in special ticketed events.

For younger families they’re more likely to market to the upper 40% that have potentially more at their disposal, that’s still not a small population group.

That's an interesting point.

I have some data - I haven't looked at it in depth - saying two-adult, no kid groups (and one-adult, no-kid) are a significant demographic for WDW. If I ever get free time, I'll see if I can figure that out.

For what it's worth, the data we see inputted into our ticket calculator has "2 adults, 0 kids" as the most common group.

 

[HokieRaven5]

That's an interesting point.

I have some data - I haven't looked at it in depth - saying two-adult, no kid groups (and one-adult, no-kid) are a significant demographic for WDW. If I ever get free time, I'll see if I can figure that out.

For what it's worth, the data we see inputted into our ticket calculator has "2 adults, 0 kids" as the most common group.

Wouldn’t someone over 10 being classified as an “adult” have a little to do with that as well? There’s only a 7 year window where a guest could qualify for a “kids” ticket.