Why I Hate the DDP

[Nancyg56]

Nancy I hope you know that you now will have a bunch of dissers wanting to crash dinner the next time your Dad cooks for the family

I'm sorry to say that my Dad has passed on. You would have loved him, he looked like Jackie Gleason in a Chef Jacket, herringbone pants (I was so embarrassed about those) and his toque. I remember one evening when he commandeered my Mom and me into serving at a banquet. I had never really seen him in action, but this evening he was flambeing Cherries Jubilee, and he was magnificent!

A few years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture at the CIA with the Chefs Association of CT. The speaker was the host of cooking secrets of the CIA, I cannot remember his name. He was from my Dad's era and he was discussing how his style of cooking had had to change, back then butter and cream were staples in everything. He actually addressed the concerns I see expressed time and again on the DDP threads, the issues regarding food prep are a reality in every restaurant. For instance, my Dad never used prepared stocks, he made his own. That is rare today, according to this master chef. He also butchered his own beef because he aged it himself, That is also rare. Profit and loss are often very close in restaurants and chefs make decisions that keep their operations afloat. That means compromise.

I miss his perspective on many things, but I think I will always be thankful that he instilled in me a respect for cooking styles that are not my own, and for foods that I am not familiar with. He knew that the best cooks were always willing to try something new.

 

[drakethib]

I'm sorry to say that my Dad has passed on. You would have loved him, he looked like Jackie Gleason in a Chef Jacket, herringbone pants (I was so embarrassed about those) and his toque. I remember one evening when he commandeered my Mom and me into serving at a banquet. I had never really seen him in action, but this evening he was flambeing Cherries Jubilee, and he was magnificent!

A few years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture at the CIA with the Chefs Association of CT. The speaker was the host of cooking secrets of the CIA, I cannot remember his name. He was from my Dad's era and he was discussing how his style of cooking had had to change, back then butter and cream were staples in everything. He actually addressed the concerns I see expressed time and again on the DDP threads, the issues regarding food prep are a reality in every restaurant. For instance, my Dad never used prepared stocks, he made his own. That is rare today, according to this master chef. He also butchered his own beef because he aged it himself, That is also rare. Profit and loss are often very close in restaurants and chefs make decisions that keep their operations afloat. That means compromise.

I miss his perspective on many things, but I think I will always be thankful that he instilled in me a respect for cooking styles that are not my own, and for foods that I am not familiar with. He knew that the best cooks were always willing to try something new.

Nancy, I am sorry.

It sounds like he left one heck of a legacy though.

 

[Hixski]

I'm sorry to say that my Dad has passed on. You would have loved him, he looked like Jackie Gleason in a Chef Jacket, herringbone pants (I was so embarrassed about those) and his toque. I remember one evening when he commandeered my Mom and me into serving at a banquet. I had never really seen him in action, but this evening he was flambeing Cherries Jubilee, and he was magnificent!

A few years ago, I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture at the CIA with the Chefs Association of CT. The speaker was the host of cooking secrets of the CIA, I cannot remember his name. He was from my Dad's era and he was discussing how his style of cooking had had to change, back then butter and cream were staples in everything. He actually addressed the concerns I see expressed time and again on the DDP threads, the issues regarding food prep are a reality in every restaurant. For instance, my Dad never used prepared stocks, he made his own. That is rare today, according to this master chef. He also butchered his own beef because he aged it himself, That is also rare. Profit and loss are often very close in restaurants and chefs make decisions that keep their operations afloat. That means compromise.

I miss his perspective on many things, but I think I will always be thankful that he instilled in me a respect for cooking styles that are not my own, and for foods that I am not familiar with. He knew that the best cooks were always willing to try something new.

I had said earlier in this thread that I live in St. Louis which has wonderful Italian food. My cousins own an Italian restaurant and a good friend has a fine dining Italian restaurant. The friend was named Restauranteur of the Year for 2004. Our friend sort of has that Jackie Gleason look going on too. I love Italian food and know what "good" Italian food is. That being said I would never think I was the be all, end all authority on Italian food. I just know what I like. We just had friends move back home to St. Louis after living in Detroit for 15 yrs. They were dying to have good Italian food again. They said they couldn't even find a good pizza.

 

[Dreamfinder2]

Nancyg56, hon, you have just absolutely made my day. Blessings on you and yours.

I have little patience for food snobs. Even the humblest of foods can be elevated to an art form in the kitchen of someone who loves what they're doing ... and loves who they are cooking for.

To me, it's something of a miracle that Disney can feed as many folks as they do in a day and have anything even approaching quality. I know when you have a limited menu, and perhaps a station dedicated to each item, it's a little easier. Still, it boggles my mind ... and watching the activity in an open kitchen is even that much more astonishing.

 

[Nancyg56]

I had said earlier in this thread that I live in St. Louis which has wonderful Italian food. My cousins own an Italian restaurant and a good friend has a fine dining Italian restaurant. The friend was named Restauranteur of the Year for 2004. Our friend sort of has that Jackie Gleason look going on too. I love Italian food and know what "good" Italian food is. That being said I would never think I was the be all, end all authority on Italian food. I just know what I like. We just had friends move back home to St. Louis after living in Detroit for 15 yrs. They were dying to have good Italian food again. They said they couldn't even find a good pizza.

I know how you feel. I know what I like and what my family enjoys. Your friend must be a talented chef as he had a lot of competition! The best Italian food I have ever had was at my neighbors home. I was alone with the kids at night and would drop in on her. OMG, she fed me and I was on happy gal! To this day I have no idea what I was eating was called, but it was good We are not going to talk about the wines her husband made......so good.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Reagarding Zatarain's - love their stuff. We use a lot of their creole seasoning. And sometimes, in a pinch, I'll take their frozen entrees to work for lunch.

But at the risk of total heresy ... I prefer the Old Bay to Zatarain's Crab Boil. You don't have to like my choice there, but you do have to love me.

With Jiko, CG, and Artist Point, you've got the trifecta of Disney Dining, for me. For anyone who is trying to manage their DDP credits, and you have an even number in your party, it's a good strategy to split the difference, with half of you using credits and the other half paying OOP. Based on sheer number crunching, it seems that you really have to work hard to make any 2 credit TS restaurant cost effective.

Or don't use the stupid plan at all, if that suits you. Poor ol' Disney folks ... here they are, trying to give us choices and please everyone, and look what happens.

My annoying editorial thought: Those three restaurants I mentioned represent the best of Disney dining, and more than hold their own against those perceived "good old days" of service and quality. I guess we could debate that, but I'm going to ignore you.

MSG & thinking you have the trifecta...poor thing!!!

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Now taking courses at the CIA may make you are of cooking techniques, but it is does not make you or anyone else for that matter an expert on all types of fine dining. My father was the Executive Chef at the University Club of Hartford. He was a member of the CT Chefs Association and hosted their meetings many times. Executive Chefs from all over the state praised my father's cooking, his technique and his passion for food and fine dining. My Dad was a well respected member and one of the finest chefs in CT. He was invited to teach when the CIA opened, he was that good.

Now those are his credentials. He NEVER disparaged regional cuisine, he embraced it. He was always strengthening his base of knowledge because he knew that every culture has a core of cooking technique that enriches those who experience it. He used as much as he could to enhance the dishes that he created. I'm sorry that you look down upon regional cooking because you are afraid that it will not make your palate dance. You are missing out on a wealth of knowledge by confining yourself to what you perceive to be fine dining. That type of insular behavior does not distinguish you are a connoisseur of fine food, it diminishes your credibility.

I wonder if you would have looked down on him and the food that he served to family and friends if you were fortunate enough to meat him today. You see, he was not classically trained, his art was a gift and an intrinsic ability to take a humble piece of protein, such as catfish, and turn it into a culinary masterpiece. He used everything and it flew out of his kitchen. His clientèle were people who had their own personal chefs at home, but they knew that when Chef Joe was cooking. it was going to be a treat. He was a wizard in his kitchen because he knew the value of studying regional cuisine and then serving it.

I don't think that he would be whining that the quality of food had declined because of the DDP and the ignorant people who use it and did not know good food from a can of tuna fish, he would be enjoying the chefs ability to work within the parameter that was set. He would have no problem shaking the hand of the chef at CG , or Boma or V&A or 50's PTC. He would know what to expect prior to entering and would appreciate that venue for what it was.

Bottom line (IMHO) is that the "chefs" are no LONGER allowed to show their ability due to dining plan restrictions. If I was able to meet not "meat" your father (as you stated) I'm sure we would have had a very delicious conversation. It is just lovely that you have such fine thoughts of your Dad...where that fits with the DDP discussion I'm not sure.
We could agree and/or disagee on any dining.....you have your point and I have mine and to be frank this entire thread has gone in a complete circle.

 

[Tinkerbell24]

Bottom line (IMHO) is that the "chefs" are no LONGER allowed to show their ability due to dining plan restrictions. If I was able to meet not "meat" your father (as you stated) I'm sure we would have had a very delicious conversation. It is just lovely that you have such fine thoughts of your Dad...where that fits with the DDP discussion I'm not sure.
We could agree and/or disagee on any dining.....you have your point and I have mine and to be frank this entire thread has gone in a complete circle.

I believe that her post may have stemmed from your comment about "fine dining" You say something, but when people ask what you mean, it seems you argue instead of telling us all what you mean. Nancy was sharing her experience and that of her father and some were touched and appreciated her input (as I did).

Also, I did not know that you would criticise for spelling when you corrected her meat for meet. I think we all know what she means...not being graded.

 

[Camping Cat]

I have a semi-solution for you.....I too feel the same way about having to have it your whole trip why can't you just pick the amount of days you want after all it is "Magic YOUR my". Anyway we dont eat that much food and it is way more money than we would spend on food so I split my reservation. I am staying for 14 nights but am on the dining plan for 6 nights, still staying in the same resort (with the unlikely chance of being moved from my room). I know you have to do it 6 nights in a row but I REALLY wanted to try it!!!

I'm not willing to split our stay on the off chance that we might have to move. We are camping in Fort Wilderness and not only would breaking camp be a hassle, but we put up lots of Christmas decorations. And we line out entire campsite in rope lights. There is no way I would want to take down and put up everything all over again if we had to move. If it wasn't for that, I would jump at this idea. If we were staying in one of the resorts, moving wouldn't be much of a problem at all.

 

[Camping Cat]

Hey CC! If you're an AP holder, the DDE is a great deal! 20% of all food & beverages at almost every table service rest. Swan/Dolphin rests. are excluded.

We are AP holders and we've gone back and forth over the DDE card, but I've always wondered if we would use it enough to break even. We stay at Fort Wilderness in our camper so almost all of our breakfasts and some of our other meals are eaten at the camper. And we do most of our snacking there, so I'm not sure how much use we would get out of the card. We usually only plan 3 or 4 big meals out. Last December was unusual for us. We ate at lots of table service meals with our RADP friends during the Big Meet. THAT would have been the time to have the DDE card! But I don't think that will be the case this coming December.

As I said it's been years since we've used any ddp type plan, back then it was actually coupons that you gave to the server. I think using it now would require a bit more planning than I care to do, keeping track of the credits, etc. Also we would use the TS service credits so quickly & would either force ourselves to use CS credits or just waste them. Food is a big part of our vacations, no matter where we go, WDW included.

We actually had the opposite problem in May. We had split all of our meals early in the week (including 2 signature restaurants) and had extra TS credits we needed to use up at the end of our trip. We were way too full those last two days.

 

[apostolic4life]

Now taking courses at the CIA may make you are of cooking techniques, but it is does not make you or anyone else for that matter an expert on all types of fine dining. My father was the Executive Chef at the University Club of Hartford. He was a member of the CT Chefs Association and hosted their meetings many times. Executive Chefs from all over the state praised my father's cooking, his technique and his passion for food and fine dining. My Dad was a well respected member and one of the finest chefs in CT. He was invited to teach when the CIA opened, he was that good.

Now those are his credentials. He NEVER disparaged regional cuisine, he embraced it. He was always strengthening his base of knowledge because he knew that every culture has a core of cooking technique that enriches those who experience it. He used as much as he could to enhance the dishes that he created. I'm sorry that you look down upon regional cooking because you are afraid that it will not make your palate dance. You are missing out on a wealth of knowledge by confining yourself to what you perceive to be fine dining. That type of insular behavior does not distinguish you are a connoisseur of fine food, it diminishes your credibility.

I wonder if you would have looked down on him and the food that he served to family and friends if you were fortunate enough to meat him today. You see, he was not classically trained, his art was a gift and an intrinsic ability to take a humble piece of protein, such as catfish, and turn it into a culinary masterpiece. He used everything and it flew out of his kitchen. His clientèle were people who had their own personal chefs at home, but they knew that when Chef Joe was cooking. it was going to be a treat. He was a wizard in his kitchen because he knew the value of studying regional cuisine and then serving it.

I don't think that he would be whining that the quality of food had declined because of the DDP and the ignorant people who use it and did not know good food from a can of tuna fish, he would be enjoying the chefs ability to work within the parameter that was set. He would have no problem shaking the hand of the chef at CG , or Boma or V&A or 50's PTC. He would know what to expect prior to entering and would appreciate that venue for what it was.

Your father sounds very much like the chef I apprenticed under for the first three years of my professional career. He was trained in the classic way; twenty years spent under world class chefs in Spain and France. I am proud to have been tutored by a man of such great skill and wisdom. He too taught me to embrace regional, ethnic and fusion cuisine. I am proud of the legacy imparted to me by my mentor and I am sure your father did the same for some young chef along the way. Men like this exemplify the teachings of Auguste Escoffier and Antoine Careme (the fathers of Classic French Cuisine and Technique). Thanks for sharing your father with the rest of us!!!!

 

[Katiebell]

Bottom line (IMHO) is that the "chefs" are no LONGER allowed to show their ability due to dining plan restrictions. If I was able to meet not "meat" your father (as you stated) I'm sure we would have had a very delicious conversation. It is just lovely that you have such fine thoughts of your Dad...where that fits with the DDP discussion I'm not sure.
We could agree and/or disagee on any dining.....you have your point and I have mine and to be frank this entire thread has gone in a complete circle.

Nancy writes an eloquent, beautifully written post about her father's perspective on and great respect for regional cuisine, and his ability as a chef to create delicious dishes from the humblest of ingredients...

...and you correct her spelling of one word, and get in yet another disparaging dig about the food at Disney by putting quotes around "chefs" -- as if they aren't really chefs, they are chefs in name only. Unbelievable.

You have insulted pretty much everyone here of Cajun/Creole descent, anyone who would stoop to purchasing the dining plan, and anyone who thinks that Disney dining is just fine -- pretty darn good for amusement park food, IMHO. And then proceeded to label everyone rude who disagrees with you. If Disney dining no longer meets your standards, why on earth do you continue to vacation at Disney? If the food is so putrid, the service so horrid, and it's so much worse than it used to be, why continue to waste your money and your time? Why not vacation in Paris?

However, I suggest you get advance dinner reservations -- I've heard the best restaurants there are quite busy.

Oh, and it's "disagree", not "disagee", if we are correcting spelling now.

 

[apostolic4life]

MSG & thinking you have the trifecta...poor thing!!!

As long as you are not allergic to MSG there is not an issue when cooking with it; should have learned that in your CIA courses. I have taught that to first semester culinary students in Basic Skills. You should also be aware (since you have taken a course in Asian) of the application of MSG as a staple in authentic Oriental Cuisine. It is used as both a flavor enhancement and preservative in the Asian pantry. If you use MSG you should always be sure to inform patrons just in case they may have the allergy.

Knowledge will always disarm ignorance!!!

 

[apostolic4life]

Oh, and it's "disagree", not "disagee", if we are correcting spelling now.

Sure is funny how things creep up to bite ya' in the hind end, real funny!!!

 

[apostolic4life]

If I was able to meet not "meat" your father (as you stated) I'm sure we would have had a very delicious conversation.

...utterly pathetic. What else can you say???

 

[Hixski]

Nancy writes an eloquent, beautifully written post about her father's perspective on and great respect for regional cuisine, and his ability as a chef to create delicious dishes from the humblest of ingredients...

...and you correct her spelling of one word, and get in yet another disparaging dig about the food at Disney by putting quotes around "chefs" -- as if they aren't really chefs, they are chefs in name only. Unbelievable.

You have insulted pretty much everyone here of Cajun/Creole descent, anyone who would stoop to purchasing the dining plan, and anyone who thinks that Disney dining is just fine -- pretty darn good for amusement park food, IMHO. And then proceeded to label everyone rude who disagrees with you. If Disney dining no longer meets your standards, why on earth do you continue to vacation at Disney? If the food is so putrid, the service so horrid, and it's so much worse than it used to be, why continue to waste your money and your time? Why not vacation in Paris?

However, I suggest you get advance dinner reservations -- I've heard the best restaurants there are quite busy.

Oh, and it's "disagree", not "disagee", if we are correcting spelling now.

It would be nice if your questions would be answered but I doubt it. Others have asked the same questions.

 

[Nancyg56]

Bottom line (IMHO) is that the "chefs" are no LONGER allowed to show their ability due to dining plan restrictions. If I was able to meet not "meat" your father (as you stated) I'm sure we would have had a very delicious conversation. It is just lovely that you have such fine thoughts of your Dad...where that fits with the DDP discussion I'm not sure.
We could agree and/or disagee on any dining.....you have your point and I have mine and to be frank this entire thread has gone in a complete circle.

Thank you for pointing out my typo. I sometimes forget that on an internet board small errors are pointed out in order to degrade the point made.

As to "MSG", it is a staple in most working kitchens. You may not know it is being added but it does get used.

I was responding to the demeaning comments in regards to regional tastes that I read. I think that you know that.

Now to the DDP. It has been blamed for all of the changes that are occurring in Disney restaurants. I'm not at all sure that the plan is the culprit. Changes in menus and ingredients occur all of the time. The changes that have the "foodies" so distressed may not be because the DDP has opened the doors of "their" restaurants to the "others", but may have occurred because the cost of keeping those doors open has skyrocketed into the stratosphere.

Food is expensive. Food prep is expensive. Keeping ingredients on hand is not cost effective if those ingredients are not ordered. In my area we had several nice restaurants take "unusual" items off of their menu because the cost of keeping them there was not reflected in the return that they generated. While it may have been your wish that the days of old in Disney remain the same, the economy may not have allowed it to be so. Lovely restaurants with their house half empty do not remain profitable. The chef must keep his stores stocked and his house staffed and hope that the people who are squawking will patronize his restaurant and spend enough money too justify his menu decisions. If not a responsible chef will adjust in order to maintain the integrity of his restaurant and still encourage a clientèle.

The nasty commentary regarding regional cuisine and those people whose backgrounds celebrate that food was not called for. It was meant to explain why the mass of people who have purchased the DDP would enjoy inferior quality of the food served in Disney today. My commentary was meant to correct that fallacy. My father was a chef whose palate could discover the layers of flavor embedded in items that you would look down upon. This gift is what made him a star in his environment, and why he would be welcomed into any kitchen. You may have taken courses at the CIA, but it is a hobby for you. If it was your profession you would be forced to open your mind in order to survive in this business.

 

[Nancyg56]

Your father sounds very much like the chef I apprenticed under for the first three years of my professional career. He was trained in the classic way; twenty years spent under world class chefs in Spain and France. I am proud to have been tutored by a man of such great skill and wisdom. He too taught me to embrace regional, ethnic and fusion cuisine. I am proud of the legacy imparted to me by my mentor and I am sure your father did the same for some young chef along the way. Men like this exemplify the teachings of Auguste Escoffier and Antoine Careme (the fathers of Classic French Cuisine and Technique). Thanks for sharing your father with the rest of us!!!!

He was a working chef, much like your mentor, I think. One of his second cooks, ( not sous chef back then) his Dad was a Chef and sent his son to work under my father. He knew that my Dad would train him to open his mind to the wide array of ingredients and techniques that would turn a good cook into a master chef.

My Dad would not walk into another kitchen and disparage the chef. He was the first to stand and give kudos to another chef and home cook as well. I'm sure that you gravitated to your mentor because he, like you respected differences in style, preferences and budgetary considerations.

There is a difference between not liking the cuisine served and treating the chef with disrespect because that cuisine does not meet your approval. He would have enjoyed a meal in your kitchen and I know that I would be honored to meet one such as you. I know that you will send some young aspiring cook on to discover the joys of creating wonderful meals using seasonal and regional ingredients and employing the technique that best suits them.

Thank you for sharing your story. My father has been gone a long time. There have been some demonstrations of ignorance in this discussion, but those remarks have given me the opportunity to share my Dad's philosophy with other people and to discover while his training was not at the great culinary schools, his philosophy and regard for food and it preparation was on the same level as the masters. I thank you all for that.

 

[drakethib]

delete

 

[Dreamfinder2]

Neverenoughwdw, I guess I should apologize to you for all my shortcomings, and that I've upset you with my ignorance and lack of taste.

However, you haven't been very nice. I wasn't raised to show ill manners, and I'll bet you weren't, either. I'd personally be very grateful if you would state your position without devaluing others. You'd be pleasantly surprised at the fair hearing you'd receive.