So....trail running

[Herding_Cats]

See? This is why I love this group. So good.

 

[DopeyBadger]

See? This is why I love this group. So good.

Did you mention the race name? For trail races, I like to use past Strava races to look at past competitors and their road PRs to find a group of people like the person I’m writing the plan for. This gives us a general idea how hard the course might be technically. So maybe 17 min/mile is the limit, but is that like a 16 min/mile road equivalent or a 13 min/mile equivalent. I don’t solely use Strava GAP for trail races where I do for road races.

I concur with the opinions shared thus far. When I’ve trained someone that wants to go beyond the 2.5hrs in training then we just go much much slower than the +9% from MTempo and instead more like +20%. Once we figure out the conversion for that particular race, then we could determine an appropriate training pace under similar conditions to the race itself. Depending on location I recommend doing some training on the race trail as much as feasible. Sometimes that means every other weekend, and sometimes that just means once about 4-6 weeks out. That familiarization can remove some of the potential negative thoughts/stress of race day.

Those are just some quick thoughts.

 

[avondale]

een-mileage (3-6 hours) on a Saturday followed by a 90min-ish run on Sunday is......a lot. For the whole summer. Every freaking weekend.

Just noticed this small bit.... this is why I do my long races in the spring, so I am not training through the summer heat and vacation time. But training through winter has its own challenges. Where I am, that is not usually too hard (but this winter may be challenging me!).

Depending on location I recommend doing some training on the race trail as much as feasible. Sometimes that means every other weekend, and sometimes that just means once about 4-6 weeks out. That familiarization can remove some of the potential negative thoughts/stress of race day.

I forgot to say this! Totally, totally agree. I know you live in Michigan, but not sure how far from the race site. Try to do a couple of your longest training runs on the course, if you can. It will give you a much better feel for how you'll be running on it and definitely give you confidence. I do this whenever my race is within about a 3-hour drive of my location. When I have to travel farther for the race, I try to get there early enough the day before so that I can get on the course and hike it for a few miles to get a feel for it.

Maybe make a family day of it? You go run and they do some hiking and a picnic? Or maybe it can be a "me day"?

 

[avondale]

This gives us a general idea how hard the course might be technically. So maybe 17 min/mile is the limit, but is that like a 16 min/mile road equivalent or a 13 min/mile equivalent. I don’t solely use Strava GAP for trail races where I do for road races.

A word of warning on this... most people have "regular" GPS (I have dual-band), and so both the distances and elevation gains can be really off from reality compared to the variation you see in road running races. The courses are often quite curvy, especially if they are following mountain-biking trails, and the GPS frequently doesn't handle that well.

For my first 50k, the RD said the course was long. My dual-band GPS measured 33-point-something miles (I forget exactly), but other runners' GPS were measuring various distances from a little under 50k to up to 38 miles!

The dual-band GPS that I have is fantastic for road running - you can see on a map which side of the sidewalk I was running on (inside vs outside) and there's none of the "drunkard's walk" like you see in regular GPS - the precision is amazing. But it still usually measures long on trails compared to what the RDs say the route has been measured as. (Unlike road running, there isn't a big issue with "running the tangents" - not when a lot of it is singletrack.)

So you'll probably see a ton of variation in a group of runners doing the same course.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Did you mention the race name? For trail races, I like to use past Strava races to look at past competitors and their road PRs to find a group of people like the person I’m writing the plan for. This gives us a general idea how hard the course might be technically. So maybe 17 min/mile is the limit, but is that like a 16 min/mile road equivalent or a 13 min/mile equivalent. I don’t solely use Strava GAP for trail races where I do for road races.

I concur with the opinions shared thus far. When I’ve trained someone that wants to go beyond the 2.5hrs in training then we just go much much slower than the +9% from MTempo and instead more like +20%. Once we figure out the conversion for that particular race, then we could determine an appropriate training pace under similar conditions to the race itself. Depending on location I recommend doing some training on the race trail as much as feasible. Sometimes that means every other weekend, and sometimes that just means once about 4-6 weeks out. That familiarization can remove some of the potential negative thoughts/stress of race day.

Those are just some quick thoughts.

I've definitely strava-stalked some past finishers. That stuff (with links) is in my training journal.

Just noticed this small bit.... this is why I do my long races in the spring, so I am not training through the summer heat and vacation time. But training through winter has its own challenges. Where I am, that is not usually too hard (but this winter may be challenging me!).

I forgot to say this! Totally, totally agree. I know you live in Michigan, but not sure how far from the race site. Try to do a couple of your longest training runs on the course, if you can. It will give you a much better feel for how you'll be running on it and definitely give you confidence. I do this whenever my race is within about a 3-hour drive of my location. When I have to travel farther for the race, I try to get there early enough the day before so that I can get on the course and hike it for a few miles to get a feel for it.

Maybe make a family day of it? You go run and they do some hiking and a picnic? Or maybe it can be a "me day"?

The course is about 60min away, so getting there for some of the longest long runs is definitely part of the plan.

 

[DopeyBadger]

A word of warning on this... most people have "regular" GPS (I have dual-band), and so both the distances and elevation gains can be really off from reality compared to the variation you see in road running races. The courses are often quite curvy, especially if they are following mountain-biking trails, and the GPS frequently doesn't handle that well.

For my first 50k, the RD said the course was long. My dual-band GPS measured 33-point-something miles (I forget exactly), but other runners' GPS were measuring various distances from a little under 50k to up to 38 miles!

The dual-band GPS that I have is fantastic for road running - you can see on a map which side of the sidewalk I was running on (inside vs outside) and there's none of the "drunkard's walk" like you see in regular GPS - the precision is amazing. But it still usually measures long on trails compared to what the RDs say the route has been measured as. (Unlike road running, there isn't a big issue with "running the tangents" - not when a lot of it is singletrack.)

So you'll probably see a ton of variation in a group of runners doing the same course.

All true. But the finish time and their past PRs can still give an idea on difficulty of course. If they’re a group of 2:00hr PR HM runners and they all run 3:00hr HMs on the trail course, it can give you an idea how hard it is relatively speaking.

But I guess it is important for day of racing to realize the GPS pace and such can be potentially unreliable.

 

[lilmc]

there's none of the "drunkard's walk"

In our family we call the GPS crazies “squirrel chasing” as inspired by our dog. Some of the GPS shenanigans can be so funny

 

[PrincessV]

May I join in to mostly live vicariously through you all?! Because I LOVE trail running. Truly, no other running makes me as happy. But also I live in coastal FL: I do have trails nearby, but only a small few and no elevation at all. Most of what I run is various combinations of packed dirt, gravel, crushed shell, sand, and grass that may or may not be trampled flat or be shin-high with half a foot of mud at the roots, depending on the season. Plenty of knotty roots to navigate and the occasional snake: I like to play a game I call Stick or Snake? in which I have to guess from a distance whether something up ahead is a stick or snake. It’s only been a snake once so far. I’m unable to travel these days, but we once used to vacation in the NC Blue Ridge Mountains and I did some legit trail “running” and hiking there - absolute bliss. I’m one of the weirdos who happily takes to the grass during rD races as often as I can, and I really wish rD would put on a trail race in Disney’s Wilderness Preserve one day.

Anyway, I probably don’t know anything useful to contribute for @Herding_Cats, but have enjoyed reading everything here!

The only thing I can comment on from experience is high mileage… for all of my Dopeys, I did b2b2b2b training weekends with the longest ones topping out at 3/6/12/22. Plenty of walking; slow paces. Yes, it was a huge time suck, and doing them in FL was often miserable, but it worked really, really well for me. Whether that kind of mileage is good for anyone else is totally debatable, but I’m throwing it out there as something that yes, some people actually pull off!

 

[avondale]

I like to play a game I call Stick or Snake? in which I have to guess from a distance whether something up ahead is a stick or snake. It’s only been a snake once so far.

This is a trail running "game" almost everywhere. I did once misjudge and jumped without hesitating over a stick that I realized was a snake at the peak of my jump. LOL Most of the time the game is the reverse: I startle at something I think is a snake but it's just a stick.

 

[camaker]

I like to play a game I call Stick or Snake? in which I have to guess from a distance whether something up ahead is a stick or snake. It’s only been a snake once so far.

This is a trail running "game" almost everywhere. I did once misjudge and jumped without hesitating over a stick that I realized was a snake at the peak of my jump. LOL Most of the time the game is the reverse: I startle at something I think is a snake but it's just a stick.

The prevalence of copperheads in NC adds a little extra spice to the game here. Between my walking and running I've come across everything from 6" long green snakes to 6-7' long corn or king snakes.

 

[Herding_Cats]

The prevalence of copperheads in NC adds a little extra spice to the game here. Between my walking and running I've come across everything from 6" long green snakes to 6-7' long corn or king snakes.

that's a whole lotta nope-rope.

 

[camaker]

that's a whole lotta nope-rope.

This wasn’t a stick, by the way:

 

[Herding_Cats]

 

[camaker]

No! This is a helpful one! It only eats rodents and small trail runners!

 

[PrincessV]

The prevalence of copperheads in NC adds a little extra spice to the game here. Between my walking and running I've come across everything from 6" long green snakes to 6-7' long corn or king snakes.

I mostly see coiled water moccasins and harmless watersnakes, which are tough to distinguish so I just give them all a wide berth. But I know there are also rattlesnakes all over, as evidenced by the large quantity flattened on roadways - those are my primary worries on trails full of sticks and leaves! Always happy to come across a sunning black snake though.

Another fun FL game I play when running my local golf course is Log or Gator - I’ve guessed that one wrong a lot more often than Stick or Snake! An associated game that can be played on both golf courses and on wooded trails is Coyote or German Shepard.

 

[The Expert]

This wasn’t a stick, by the way:

View attachment 937811

Rat snake??

 

[nancipants]

Danger noodles!

 

[camaker]

Rat snake??

Not entirely sure. I've had folks identify it variously as a rat, corn or king snake. All I really know is it's the largest snake I've ever seen in the wild.

ETA: "Dammit Jim, I'm a runner, not a herpetologist!"

 

[Professor_Cookie]

I mostly see coiled water moccasins and harmless watersnakes, which are tough to distinguish so I just give them all a wide berth. But I know there are also rattlesnakes all over, as evidenced by the large quantity flattened on roadways - those are my primary worries on trails full of sticks and leaves! Always happy to come across a sunning black snake though.

Another fun FL game I play when running my local golf course is Log or Gator - I’ve guessed that one wrong a lot more often than Stick or Snake! An associated game that can be played on both golf courses and on wooded trails is Coyote or German Shepard.

There aren’t supposed to be rattlesnakes at our elevation/altitude but I was running along a narrow over grown path at the bottom of PC Hill and I swear I heard the rattle going off. I was half way through it so I just decided to continue with my guard up and walking slowly and gingerly.

There are signs in the valley, definitely along the Bonneville Shoreline Trail with rattlesnake warnings too but I never seent or heard one there.

 

[The Expert]

There are signs in the valley, definitely along the Bonneville Shoreline Trail with rattlesnake warnings too but I never seent or heard one there.

I have! One of my long runs during my first marathon training, DH had a meeting that was right near a BST trailhead, so I went with him to do my run while he was doing his thing. I heard it before I saw it, and thankfully it was far enough away from where I was headed to avoid it, but it was definitely a rattler (we had them all over in Missouri as a kid). I almost didn't believe my own senses until colleagues at the Trib confirmed their own sightings.