Keeping Ukraine in our thoughts and prayers here

[JimMIA]

I think the reports are pointing towards troops that haven't seen any "action" yet

Russia has almost 200,000 soldiers deployed to the region. Of those, more than 80% (160,000) are now engaged in operations inside Ukraine.

The Ukrainians claim to have killed something like 6,000-8,000 Russian soldiers. Russia admits at least 498 have been killed, and both of those claims were 4-5 days ago -- very early in the war.

The Russians have found a lot more "action" than they anticipated.

 

[BayouQueen]

The people of Russia know, and I believe the vast majority of them support the war in Ukraine. It's their war; they own it.

I hope you are wrong on this point, as it could make a lot of difference in the outcome here. I think being terrified to voice dissent is not the same as supporting something.

 

[Sinder]

Where did we get the idea that Russian soldiers didn’t know what was happening? From statements from the soldiers doing “maneuvers” in a different country?
They entered Ukraine after having a presence on the border for months. And once you are bombing cities full of civilians and killing children you damn well know what you are doing. As soon as you are ordered to move into civilian areas of another country you know what is happening is far beyond “maneuvers”.
Those soldiers are nothing more than terrorists.

 

[Karin1984]

When thousands of Russian citizens are arrested for large street protests, the people of Russia know. When your next door neighbor is grieving their soldier son who was killed in Ukraine, they know. When the government of Russia announces that one of their top generals was killed during a "special military operation" in Ukraine, they know.

The people of Russia know, and I believe the vast majority of them support the war in Ukraine. It's their war; they own it.

There was a story a few days ago. Russian said there are 500 Russian soldiers killed, Ukraine says 6.000. Truth will be somewhere in the middle, but still Russian might not tell every mother what happened to their son. Ukraine says that the Russian convoy brought mobile cremation units, not to cremate their victims, but their own men to influence the numbers.
As for the protests, they mainly happen in large cities. I think that people not living in large cities do not know about the protests. As there is no Russian media to report about it.

I have a hard time blaming the average Russian for supporting the war, when you see the propaganda Putin puts out. There was a video of a young girl with pigtails explaining their version of the truth on television to teach children. If propaganda is all they see and hear, aren't they then victims as well?
https://www.joe.co.uk/life/russia-u...e-new-attempt-to-lie-to-its-own-people-321046

 

[JimMIA]

I hope you are wrong on this point, as it could make a lot of difference in the outcome here. I think being terrified to voice dissent is not the same as supporting something.

I hope I'm wrong too, but in today's world I just don't believe anyone cannot know anything. We get bombarded by information constantly, whether we are interested or not. You can't avoid it.

I realize the US is not Russia, and I know the government there is threatening (they just passed a law with 15 year prison sentences for people spreading "false news"). But still, they have to know. Hopefully, sanctions will cause them to wake up without ruining their lives at the expense of Putin and the other oligarchs.

 

[JimMIA]

There was a story a few days ago. Russian said there are 500 Russian soldiers killed, Ukraine says 6.000. Truth will be somewhere in the middle, but still Russian might not tell every mother what happened to their son. Ukraine says that the Russian convoy brought mobile cremation units, not to cremate their victims, but their own men to influence the numbers.
As for the protests, they mainly happen in large cities. I think that people not living in large cities do not know about the protests. As there is no Russian media to report about it.

I have a hard time blaming the average Russian for supporting the war, when you see the propaganda Putin puts out. There was a video of a young girl with pigtails explaining their version of the truth on television to teach children. If propaganda is all they see and hear, aren't they then victims as well?
https://www.joe.co.uk/life/russia-u...e-new-attempt-to-lie-to-its-own-people-321046

You have your sayings, and we have ours in the US.

One of my personal favorites is "You can't put lipstick on THIS pig!" It's another way of saying "It is what it is."

The fact is that Russia and Belarus have invaded Ukraine. They have bombed civilian residential areas, hospitals, orphanages, and have killed hundreds (probably thousands) of innocent people.

We can offer any kind of excuses we want, and we've all heard them many times before. There is always an excuse.

But excuses don't change facts. Russia invaded Ukraine. Nobody else.

No amount of Pollyanna or Pixie Dust can make the brutal facts go away...nor does it diminish them in the least.

 

[Karin1984]

You have your sayings, and we have ours in the US.

One of my personal favorites is "You can't put lipstick on THIS pig!" It's another way of saying "It is what it is."

The fact is that Russia and Belarus have invaded Ukraine. They have bombed civilian residential areas, hospitals, orphanages, and have killed hundreds (probably thousands) of innocent people.

We can offer any kind of excuses we want, and we've all heard them many times before. There is always an excuse.

But excuses don't change facts. Russia invaded Ukraine. Nobody else.

No amount of Pollyanna or Pixie Dust can make the brutal facts go away...nor does it diminish them in the least.

We have the same saying, but I want to bring some nuance to the word Russia: Putin and his team have invaded Ukraine. Not the average person on the street picking up a gun and running across the border.

To say that all Russians, except the ones protesting, are guilty is one step too far for me. War isn't that black and white to me. And yes, as a Dutch person my view on war is entirely different from Americans.

Today in the Dutch news, that train of thought is exactly what Putin is hoping for. To show the Russians: See, i was right, the rest of the world hates Russians, therefore we need to defend ourselves.
The article told about a 6 year old who got beaten up on the playground for being Russian, spite being born here in the Netherlands. More and more stories come out from Russians living abroad, receiving threats and hate mail for being Russian. Those stories do get to the average Russian and with that, Putin justifies his actions to the Russian people.

 

[JimMIA]

We have the same saying, but I want to bring some nuance to the word Russia: Putin and his team have invaded Ukraine. Not the average person on the street picking up a gun and running across the border.

To say that all Russians, except the ones protesting, are guilty is one step too far for me. War isn't that black and white to me. And yes, as a Dutch person my view on war is entirely different from Americans.

Today in the Dutch news, that train of thought is exactly what Putin is hoping for. To show the Russians: See, i was right, the rest of the world hates Russians, therefore we need to defend ourselves.
The article told about a 6 year old who got beaten up on the playground for being Russian, spite being born here in the Netherlands. More and more stories come out from Russians living abroad, being receiving threats and hate mail for being Russian. Those stories do get to the average Russian and with that, Putin justifies his actions to the Russian people.

We have different opinions, and that's fine. Different opinions are what discussion boards are about.

 

[JLTraveling]

I hope I'm wrong too, but in today's world I just don't believe anyone cannot know anything. We get bombarded by information constantly, whether we are interested or not. You can't avoid it.

I realize the US is not Russia, and I know the government there is threatening (they just passed a law with 15 year prison sentences for people spreading "false news"). But still, they have to know. Hopefully, sanctions will cause them to wake up without ruining their lives at the expense of Putin and the other oligarchs.

WE get bombarded with information constantly. The average Russian does not, except for the "information" that Putin wants them to have. I've seen a Russian media guy on TV talking about how he broadcasts from Latvia and all the multiple steps that Russians have to go through to safely watch his broadcasts from inside Russia. I'm tech savvy, I work online every day, and I only followed about half of it. The average Russian likely doesn't have either the knowhow or the tech skills. They've shut down Facebook and Twitter and everything else. So how, exactly, do they just "know" (outside of the tech savvy younger people in the big cities)?

 

[Neapolitan Ice Cream]

Russia has almost 200,000 soldiers deployed to the region. Of those, more than 80% (160,000) are now engaged in operations inside Ukraine.

The Ukrainians claim to have killed something like 6,000-8,000 Russian soldiers. Russia admits at least 498 have been killed, and both of those claims were 4-5 days ago -- very early in the war.

The Russians have found a lot more "action" than they anticipated.

I'm more cautious - I just doubt that that convoy of so many vehicles could have "seen action".

If they have, and are dying, no matter how the propaganda machine is going in Russia, people would be starting to wonder, where has my son/father gone?

 

[JimMIA]

WE get bombarded with information constantly. The average Russian does not, except for the "information" that Putin wants them to have. I've seen a Russian media guy on TV talking about how he broadcasts from Latvia and all the multiple steps that Russians have to go through to safely watch his broadcasts from inside Russia. I'm tech savvy, I work online every day, and I only followed about half of it. The average Russian likely doesn't have either the knowhow or the tech skills. They've shut down Facebook and Twitter and everything else. So how, exactly, do they just "know" (outside of the tech savvy younger people in the big cities)?

I just read an article in Politico which sounds like Russian citizens have much, much wider access to the Internet and social media than Americans -- even tech savvy Americans -- realize.

It is certainly restricted in many ways, but still much more robust than I thought. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/04/russia-splinternet-facebook-twitter-00014408

 

[HeatherC]

I fear Ukraine will fall to the Russians despite their hard fought resistance. Heartbreaking all around. I am sure there are many Ukrainians who never thought it would go this far.

 

[JimMIA]

I'm more cautious - I just doubt that that convoy of so many vehicles could have "seen action".

If they have, and are dying, no matter how the propaganda machine is going in Russia, people would be starting to wonder, where has my son/father gone?

Well, the truth is none of us have any idea how much "action" any Russian unit has gotten, or what the Russian people know, don't know, wonder about, don't wonder about.

Ukraine is a large country, there are something like 350,000-400,000 fighters on the two sides -- but all we get are a picture here, an anecdotal story about one dead soldier's texts there, etc.

We literally have no idea what is really going on in Ukraine.

 

[JLTraveling]

I just read an article in Politico which sounds like Russian citizens have much, much wider access to the Internet and social media than Americans -- even tech savvy Americans -- realize. It is certainly restricted in many ways, but still much more robust than I thought. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/04/russia-splinternet-facebook-twitter-00014408

Interesting article, thanks. But it did talk about the censorship demands that Russia has long placed on Western social media companies operating there. I haven't been to Russia, but I have been to Cuba. And one thing that was so striking to me on that trip was how just utterly cut off the average Cuban is from the rest of the world. I believe Russia's internet penetration is a good bit higher, but it's my understanding that there's still that basic disconnect. We live in a world where, as you mentioned, every bit of information imaginable is just there for the taking. But in Cuba, and I'm betting in Russia, you have to be much more proactive about finding it. That's why we're seeing young people in major cities protesting--they're tech savvy, they're interested in the wider world, they have a basic distrust of state media, and they're willing to put in the effort to learn what's beyond their borders.

Grandmothers in the back country? They grew up on state TV, they were part of the communist bloc, and they're busy trying to make sure their families' basic needs are met. My grandmother here in the US never bothered to get cable until she moved into a retirement home that provided it for free. Never did see the point of the internet. She wasn't disinterested in the wider world, she just figured her local over the air broadcaster and her morning newspaper were telling her everything she needed to know about it. Her priorities were different.

Add in the fact that protesting could get them locked up for decades, if not killed, and I can kind of understand the position of the average Russian. Even if they go through the work to proactively find out exactly what's going on, then what? We'd all like to think we would be as brave as Alexi Navalny, going back to lead the opposition after being poisoned, but would we? I have no idea.

 

[Neapolitan Ice Cream]

Well, the truth is none of us have any idea how much "action" any Russian unit has gotten, or what the Russian people know, don't know, wonder about, don't wonder about.

Ukraine is a large country, there are something like 350,000-400,000 fighters on the two sides -- but all we get are a picture here, an anecdotal story about one dead soldier's texts there, etc.

We literally have no idea what is really going on in Ukraine.

Very true.

 

[mom2rtk]

I had a Russian Lit professor back in the early 80's who really made me look at the Russian people in a different way. He had a real love for them and would stand in front of class and sing their folk songs to us. He made me see that they were just people with families trying to scratch out a living like most of us. I have a hunch they're much the same today. I doubt that on the whole they wish the Ukranian people any ill will. Or us for that matter. They're likely as frustrated with the state of things as we are. But ultimately they're going to have to come together and find a way out of this. It's still their husbands and sons pulling the triggers and launching the bombs, even if it's at the direction of Putin and others just like him.

 

[Planogirl]

Well, the truth is none of us have any idea how much "action" any Russian unit has gotten, or what the Russian people know, don't know, wonder about, don't wonder about.

Ukraine is a large country, there are something like 350,000-400,000 fighters on the two sides -- but all we get are a picture here, an anecdotal story about one dead soldier's texts there, etc.

We literally have no idea what is really going on in Ukraine.

There are still YouTube channels that operate and Radio Free Europe and a few others are still reporting from inside Ukraine. We may not get the whole truth but the images they send tell us a lot.

 

[JimMIA]

There are still YouTube channels that operate and Radio Free Europe and a few others are still reporting from inside Ukraine. We may not get the whole truth but the images they send tell us a lot.

Yeah. YouTube also is very widely used in Russia, from that article I linked above, which kinda surprised me.

 

[ronandannette]

Interesting article, thanks. But it did talk about the censorship demands that Russia has long placed on Western social media companies operating there. I haven't been to Russia, but I have been to Cuba. And one thing that was so striking to me on that trip was how just utterly cut off the average Cuban is from the rest of the world. I believe Russia's internet penetration is a good bit higher, but it's my understanding that there's still that basic disconnect. We live in a world where, as you mentioned, every bit of information imaginable is just there for the taking. But in Cuba, and I'm betting in Russia, you have to be much more proactive about finding it. That's why we're seeing young people in major cities protesting--they're tech savvy, they're interested in the wider world, they have a basic distrust of state media, and they're willing to put in the effort to learn what's beyond their borders.

Grandmothers in the back country? They grew up on state TV, they were part of the communist bloc, and they're busy trying to make sure their families' basic needs are met. My grandmother here in the US never bothered to get cable until she moved into a retirement home that provided it for free. Never did see the point of the internet. She wasn't disinterested in the wider world, she just figured her local over the air broadcaster and her morning newspaper were telling her everything she needed to know about it. Her priorities were different.

Add in the fact that protesting could get them locked up for decades, if not killed, and I can kind of understand the position of the average Russian. Even if they go through the work to proactively find out exactly what's going on, then what? We'd all like to think we would be as brave as Alexi Navalny, going back to lead the opposition after being poisoned, but would we? I have no idea.

I was in Cuba myself last week when Russia invaded. At my hotel, the available TV stations included several in Spanish, two in Russian, two in Chinese (they seemed like some form of news networks) AND both CNN and CTVNewsNet (a Canadian news network) in English. All these channels had non-stop coverage of the current events and CNN and CTV were showing exactly what you and I would be seeing at home.

In addition to the locals working at the resort, there were TONS of Russian holiday-makers there; all of whom had access to the information. They KNOW.

 

[JimMIA]

Interesting article, thanks. But it did talk about the censorship demands that Russia has long placed on Western social media companies operating there. I haven't been to Russia, but I have been to Cuba. And one thing that was so striking to me on that trip was how just utterly cut off the average Cuban is from the rest of the world. I believe Russia's internet penetration is a good bit higher, but it's my understanding that there's still that basic disconnect. We live in a world where, as you mentioned, every bit of information imaginable is just there for the taking. But in Cuba, and I'm betting in Russia, you have to be much more proactive about finding it. That's why we're seeing young people in major cities protesting--they're tech savvy, they're interested in the wider world, they have a basic distrust of state media, and they're willing to put in the effort to learn what's beyond their borders.

Grandmothers in the back country? They grew up on state TV, they were part of the communist bloc, and they're busy trying to make sure their families' basic needs are met. My grandmother here in the US never bothered to get cable until she moved into a retirement home that provided it for free. Never did see the point of the internet. She wasn't disinterested in the wider world, she just figured her local over the air broadcaster and her morning newspaper were telling her everything she needed to know about it. Her priorities were different.

Add in the fact that protesting could get them locked up for decades, if not killed, and I can kind of understand the position of the average Russian. Even if they go through the work to proactively find out exactly what's going on, then what? We'd all like to think we would be as brave as Alexi Navalny, going back to lead the opposition after being poisoned, but would we? I have no idea.

That has not been the experience of any of my neighbors, all but one of whom still have relatives in Cuba. It's certainly NOT an open society, but they call them at will and have very frequent contact.

ETA: That said, I realize the situation could be very different for people who LIVE in Cuba, as opposed to visitors or relatives who live here in the US.