2008 DDP - why tip 18% OOP ?

[kelscross]

It really makes me angry when a server automatically assumes they will get 18% no matter what.

when we ate at Sci-Fi for instance, the service was horrible. My food was cold not because of the kitchen, but because the server left it sit there for 10-15 minutes until he brought it to the table.

We were on the dining plan and he got his tip but I would have only left a few dollars if not just because he didn't deserve it.

If you have to pay $25 dollars or so for a lousy cold meal that is primarily the fault of the server, why should anyone feel obligated to pay even more.

What the heck happened to "the customer is always right?"

There have been many instances outside of WDW when my bill was 25.00 and I left the person close to $10.00 because they worked hard. It is not about being cheap.

If my income was tip-reliant, I would bust my butt to earn the tip, not sit back and expect it because "I'm entitled to it."

Let's face it, servers at WDW can make one heck of an income if they hustle. Maybe the service will be better now that they don't have an automatic 18% regardless.

The American system of economics is based on being rewarded for working hard. This standard applies to corporate CEO's as well as servers.

Sorry to people who might be offended but that's the way I see it!

I agree. Having to tip OOP now for the DDP in 2008 will bring the servers back to working for their tips. Whether it's right or wrong, whether they get paid a liveable salary or not..that is what it is and I can't change their base salary, but I'm not going to tip high just because I know they don't get paid well on their base salary.

I'm a nurse and although I do not get tipped in my position, my annual raise is based upon customer service, or relationship based care at my facility. Therefore, if I want to get an annual raise then I have to work for it. If I just want to be a mediocre nurse who gets by with handing out the pills and not being nice to my patients, then my salary will ultimately reflect that. My supervisor's get a salary but also get compensated based on our productivity and goals that are set for our floor. We don't perform, they don't get compensated.

The service we had in December last year at the restaurants we chose was absolutely appalling and I hope this change brings back the Disney service we had been accustomed to.

 

[bicker]

I can only speak specifically about the restaurant that I own and others I have worked at.

Again, I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're saying. Sorry.

 

[Goobergal99]

Well apparently I live in the biggest tipping capital in the United States. (most likely because most of us can't count and overtip to compensate ) But.... I almost always tip at least 15% if the service is great then I normally tip 20%. Mind you my family goes out to dinner ALOT! Mostly because DH is a SAHD now and does most of the cooking and when I am home (since I don't know how to cook) we go out to dinner.

That being said I have been given really lousy service at times, I take it all into considertation. For instance, if it is really busy then I can handle being neglected sometimes, however if we are out to dinner and the resturaunt is empty and noone comes to get our drink orders for 15 minutes, normally we walk out before given a chance to undertip.

In any case, I have been to disney many times and the service has ALWAYS warranted an excellent tip, so they normally get 25%

I might be biased though, since my grandmom was a waitress for years

 

[Goobergal99]

I agree. Having to tip OOP now for the DDP in 2008 will bring the servers back to working for their tips. Whether it's right or wrong, whether they get paid a liveable salary or not..that is what it is and I can't change their base salary, but I'm not going to tip high just because I know they don't get paid well on their base salary.

I'm a nurse and although I do not get tipped in my position, my annual raise is based upon customer service, or relationship based care at my facility. Therefore, if I want to get an annual raise then I have to work for it. If I just want to be a mediocre nurse who gets by with handing out the pills and not being nice to my patients, then my salary will ultimately reflect that. My supervisor's get a salary but also get compensated based on our productivity and goals that are set for our floor. We don't perform, they don't get compensated.

The service we had in December last year at the restaurants we chose was absolutely appalling and I hope this change brings back the Disney service we had been accustomed to.

You need to move to Philly, we nurses get 3% regardless of whether we beat our patients or pamper them Just kidding

 

[SnoopyDancer]

It's sad, but I think I miss the WDW food more than anything. The parks were fun, but I really enjoyed unwinding at a table service meal at the end of the day.

With that said, this has been an interesting discussion. On one hand, I like the old plan better because tips were included. However, some servers were not as good as others. If the tips had not been included, I would have adjusted my tips accordingly.

Now, since tips are not included in the package, I will think twice about ordering. I will definitely be considering the cost of my food more than I did before. I probably will skip an appetizer or two unless they look too good resist or I'm famished. Maybe, I'll just add an extra $20/day to the budget and not worry about it.

 

[gina2000]

Again, I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're saying. Sorry.

Actually, I do believe that in certain areas of the country in upscale restaurants 20% is definitely the norm. I am more than willing to bet that it is here as well as in NYC. We tip 20% on the total amount including the tax. So that's more than 20%. What I also know, though, is that many parts of the country still consider 15% an outstanding tip. Adequate? Sure! Acceptable? Definitely! But it's not an outstanding tip.

 

[mom2my3kids]

Being a server I tip 20 % of the bill, sometimes more. If you get good service then you should tip 15-20 percent of the bill. 15% being the minimum, I have to say I usually average 20% of my sales in a day. The good tippers make up for the bad tippers or stiffers it evens it out in the end. Like today I have this retiree that comes in at least once a week his order is usually around 9.00 and he always leaves a 5.00 tip. Then you have a couple come in today and their bill was 18.00 and they leave a dollar now they had excellent service so that was not the issue. Most people do tip 15-20 percent of the bill but there is a percentage that does not. I don't know about Buffets as I don't work at a buffet, I personally still tip 20% of the bill at a buffet.

 

[Snow_White]

Again, I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're saying. Sorry.

What is so hard to believe?!? I have a friend who is a professional waiter that works in one of the most elite restaurants in the Baltimore area and his average tip is over 20% as well (and the bills aren't cheap either).

 

[bicker]

Actually, I do believe that in certain areas of the country in upscale restaurants 20% is definitely the norm.

Absolutely, but the assertion was about "the vast majority", not just about "upscale restaurants". 20%? Uh-uh. 15% yes.

What is so hard to believe?!?

That 20% represents the gratuities provided by "the vast majority" of restaurant patrons in the United States. Provide links to references, and perhaps you can change my mind. Otherwise, I don't believe it.

 

[dqpowell]

If this is the case, what is the point of the constant debate.

The debate arises because many people make statements that don't make sense if you actually do the math. My response was specific to the comment that Disney buffet wait staff should be paid a higher tipping percentage because they might be "working harder" than the wait staff at a typical non-Disney buffet establishment like Golden Corral.

My point is that they already make a premium tip over the Golden Corral staff by virtue of the buffet costing 2.5X as much, even if the percentage is the same.

The people who explain the whys and hows of good tipping usually do so because they are a friend or relative of someone in the business or were involved in the restaurant business at sometime.

I don't recall seeing you participate on other tipping threads I've contributed to, so I guess it's understandable you don't know the following: I have a relative that works as a server in a (non-Disney) restaurant in Orlando. My sister worked as a server in a restaurant in my hometown to pay her way through her master's program. And my uncle works at a payroll services company, and has direct knowledge of wait staff pay rates, withholding, earnings, etc. I have plenty of knowledge absorbed through conversations with them about tipping. As for the "whys and hows" of good tipping, it is misleading to imply that a 10% tip at a buffet restaurant is somehow inappropriate, when most published guidelines specify exactly that - 10% - at buffets.

What is your motive in trying to convince people otherwise?

I'm not trying to convince people to stiff servers. I'm arguing for fair and reasonable compensation, rather than excessive compensation due to the vague fear that somebody might consider you cheap or a bad tipper.

You would also know if you had followed other threads I've participated on that I tip anywhere between 0% and more than 30% depending on the level of service received. I have tipped more than 10% at buffets, when the service warranted doing so, and regularly tip 25-30% or more to a particular outstanding waitress at a restaurant on Thursday nights. (We have a regular large dinner group that meets every Thursday in the same restaurant.)

The people who work at restaurants have a right to try to influence people into understanding the difficulties of their job and the justification for better tipping.

And everybody has a right to point out when a given "reason" is mathematically unsound.

I said this on another thread, but I'll repeat it here: It's a free country. Everyone may tip as they see fit. But I will respond when somebody says or implies that my fair and reasonable tipping practices are cheap or unfair.

David

 

[gina2000]

Bicker, the poster did clarify his stance to include "majority as it pertains to my clientele" (S)/he has also said "I can only speak specifically about the restaurant that I own and others I have worked at." I believe that clarification more than explains how and why the poster has derived his/her assertation. The poster also brings up an interesting POV which I had not considered and which may be relevant to this situation. (S)/he says, "I doubt Disney was paying their employess 18% of menu prices as a part of the DDP the last three years out of the goodness of their hearts. They are not known as being generous with their pay scale... If Disney hadn't determined this to be close to the median or average tip I can't imagine they would have used it as their standard." I think this idea may have merit.

 

[tloft]

Again, I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're saying. Sorry.

So, I'm either incompetent or a liar. Nice. For the previous seven days we had the following 1) sales of $2854 tips of $633 2) $1255/$325 3) $3360/$575 4)$3694/$788 5) $1106/$321 6) $1873/$411 7)$1962/$532. This is a total of $16,104 and $3585 in tips. This is an average for the week of 22.3% gratuities. This information comes directly from each days closing report. The gratuity amount is computed by the actual gratuities left on credit cards (it is tracked by the computer as each transaction is completed). The cash gratuities are added in based on what each employee reports on check out. That means if anything the numbers are higher than what it is actually been reported. The computer shows each employee their total credit card tips for the day then asks them if they have any additional cash tips to report. I don't know what else to offer. This is how it is.

 

[dqpowell]

What is so hard to believe?!? I have a friend who is a professional waiter that works in one of the most elite restaurants in the Baltimore area and his average tip is over 20% as well (and the bills aren't cheap either).

I absolutely believe you. But it's funny... depending on which thread you read, there are servers out there who would argue vehemently with you that a typical tip is anywhere near 20%. To read some of these stories, you'd think servers are working below the poverty level and that they are taxed on money they never earned.

I'm sorry, this relates back to a thread on a different DIS subforum. But it's funny that only a few days ago somebody was saying this. Now here is somebody else, ostensibly arguing for the same "side" (the servers), but claiming exactly the opposite.

David

 

[mom2my3kids]

So, I'm either incompetent or a liar. Nice. For the previous seven days we had the following 1) sales of $2854 tips of $633 2) $1255/$325 3) $3360/$575 4)$3694/$788 5) $1106/$321 6) $1873/$411 7)$1962/$532. This is a total of $16,104 and $3585 in tips. This is an average for the week of 22.3% gratuities. This information comes directly from each days closing report. The gratuity amount is computed by the actual gratuities left on credit cards (it is tracked by the computer as each transaction is completed). The cash gratuities are added in based on what each employee reports on check out. That means if anything the numbers are higher than what it is actually been reported. The computer shows each employee their total credit card tips for the day then asks them if they have any additional cash tips to report. I don't know what else to offer. This is how it is.

This is how it is at my local IHOP, we get a print out at the end of the day. It shows us all our sales, beverages, voids etc... Then it shows us our credit card tips and when you clock out you have to claim the rest of your tips..

 

[gina2000]

Dqpowell, not to be nosy, but where are you from? I believe tipping percentages may be regional and that may explain why many of us have very different ideas of the appropriate percentage to leave.

 

[dqpowell]

Dqpowell, not to be nosy, but where are you from? I believe tipping percentages may be regional and that may explain why many of us have very different ideas of the appropriate percentage to leave.

Gina, I live in upstate NY but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I am not arguing for a mandatory standard tipping percentage. As I stated previously, I tip anywhere between 0% and more than 30% depending on the situation and the service I receive. (BTW, I have only tipped 0% once that I can recall, but the service in that case was horrendous. And it was in Philidelphia, if you're curious.)

I believe a fair and reasonable tip for reasonable service at buffets is 10%. Likewise, I believe a fair and reasonable tip for reasonable service at regular table service restaurants is 15-20%. Those numbers go up or down depending on the service provided by the wait staff.

David

 

[mom2my3kids]

I absolutely believe you. But it's funny... depending on which thread you read, there are servers out there who would argue vehemently with you that a typical tip is anywhere near 20%. To read some of these stories, you'd think servers are working below the poverty level and that they are taxed on money they never earned.

I'm sorry, this relates back to a thread on a different DIS subforum. But it's funny that only a few days ago somebody was saying this. Now here is somebody else, ostensibly arguing for the same "side" (the servers), but claiming exactly the opposite.

David

Hey David remember me..

I think what people were talking about is, lets say John comes in and eats with his family there bill was 60.00. He does not tip the server, well at the end of the night the server has to claim at least 8% of that sale as earned income. So she would be claiming 6.80 cents that she never received to the IRS. It all goes by your sales, if you work at a busy place I am sure you can make money but I am sure they work very hard for that money. I don't do bad, nothing compared to Disney but it pays the bills and I am content for now.

p.s. I am not familiar with gratuity added to party's, because my IHOP does not do that no matter how big the party. We are only a family of 5 so it does not pertain to us. Now if it was added on and I had horrible service I would talk to the manager.

 

[tloft]

I absolutely believe you. But it's funny... depending on which thread you read, there are servers out there who would argue vehemently with you that a typical tip is anywhere near 20%. To read some of these stories, you'd think servers are working below the poverty level and that they are taxed on money they never earned.

I'm sorry, this relates back to a thread on a different DIS subforum. But it's funny that only a few days ago somebody was saying this. Now here is somebody else, ostensibly arguing for the same "side" (the servers), but claiming exactly the opposite.

David

Just to make sure I am clear I have no problem with customers who tip 15% for good or even excellent service. I have no problem tipping 10% at buffets. I do disagree that the price of the Disney buffet is enough to compensate for the increase in responsibilities and expectation. But hey, to each their own and will gladly conceed that at WDW no one should be shocked or appalled at a 10% tip at the buffet.

However, this thread was started with the premise that 18% is too high and clearly had the intent of swaying opinion to tipping lower amounts. Certainly everyone has the right to say whatever they want. But, one group is seeking validation for their opinion on the practice of tipping while possibly leading others to make a negative impact on how other people make their living.

I made my first trip to WDW in January of 2006. We went back in Dec of 2006 and are on our way this December. Like most people here I absolutely fell in love with it. I have never had a bad server at any restaurant at WDW and some were superb. If Orlando was where my restaurant was I would have done everything in my power to hire the waiter I had at Rose & Crown. I just don't understand so much energy being spent trying to dissuade people from tipping above a certain level. Everyone should understand that if they receive truly bad service (not just slow refills) that they are not obligated to tip anything and if their time and patience permit they should speak to a manager. I know you say you tip well when warranted. That is great and I believe you do. But what does it hurt you if a group of people think 15% is a better standard for buffet tipping. You know that 10% is within accepted norms and are not obligated to do more. No one from here is following you around the parks accusing you of being cheap. 10% is the entry point for reasonable buffet tipping. 15% is the entry point for reasonable table service tipping. People know this is true. This is something that Google can solve a lot faster than the disboards.

As much as I enjoy Disney, tipping is one of the only ways I directly influence the cast members experience. I want good people to continue to work there and want to go work there. If everyone focuses on what the minimum we should be tipping is, over time you get servers who are willing to work for the minimum. I can tell you good servers and bartenders go to where the money is good. As many hoops as you have to jump through to work at Disney the tips better be good. If a cast member who works for tips helps make your experience a positive one loosen the purse strings a little. This is one of the only times "pay it forward" might actually work. If the valet seems a little haggard slip em a $5 bill. It might put a spring back in their step. Go crazy and round that restaurant tip up even if might make it 23%, it might put a big smile on your servers face as she goes to the next table. We are talking specifically about tipping at Disney, not in our daily lives. If you love the place so much, show the people (and it is the people who make it special) some love.

 

[NYDisGuy]

Bicker, the poster did clarify his stance to include "majority as it pertains to my clientele" (S)/he has also said "I can only speak specifically about the restaurant that I own and others I have worked at." I believe that clarification more than explains how and why the poster has derived his/her assertation. The poster also brings up an interesting POV which I had not considered and which may be relevant to this situation. (S)/he says, "I doubt Disney was paying their employess 18% of menu prices as a part of the DDP the last three years out of the goodness of their hearts. They are not known as being generous with their pay scale... If Disney hadn't determined this to be close to the median or average tip I can't imagine they would have used it as their standard." I think this idea may have merit.

It's apples to oranges. Just because a vast majority of people tip better at the posters restaurants , doesn't hold any relevance to what is going to happen with the DDP at Disney. People from all around the country and world dine in Disney. Someone who gets superb service may tip 15% and think its normal, while someone else may tip 30%. On the flip side, if someone receives bad service then may not tip at all, while others may tip 10-20%.

And I believe 18% was the standard median tip that they agreed in their contract with the wait staff. I dont think you will find a waiter or waitress to work for 15% of tips unless Disney wanted their quality of service to decrease dramatically. Employees need to be happy too, i'm not sure how the poster runs their business but compensation is a main key in keeping morale up, and in Disney it's important to do so. And it's a misconception to think that most diners are on the DDP to begin with. Maybe during free dining there may be more than usual, but in off times im sure the number isnt astronomical.

 

[gina2000]

I absolutely believe you. But it's funny... depending on which thread you read, there are servers out there who would argue vehemently with you that a typical tip is anywhere near 20%.

David

And I think that's where regionality comes into play. I worked in NYC in the 80's. At that time, I was regularly tipping 20%. Even my cheapskate boss (whom I loved dearly....and before you roll your eyes let it be known that he wore that mantra like a mink coat!) doubled the 8% tax as a tip. So you can see an entirely different mindset concerning appropriate tipping practices 20 years ago. Today I tip 20% or more. At minimum I tip 20% on the bill including tax. We always leave the extra change on the table in addition to our calculated tip. Does everyone in the area leave that much? Probably not but I come from a long history of dining out and my parents always were good tippers. All of my friends do the same. My guess is that the more you dine out, the more you appreciate your waitstaff. If you can, you tip them above the standard.

I believe 10% is unremarkable but acceptable for a buffet in this part of the world . I very, very rarely get bad service anywhere I go. As a matter of fact, we hit a Ruby Tuesday's (only the second time in my life I'd ever been there) and the service was subpar. We left 15%. I consider that pretty low. Is it low for others? Definitely not. But with the cost of living as high as it is in NJ, 15% doesn't go far. The server may have been happy with that. He may be getting that regularly. But he wasn't getting anywhere near what I normally leave for good service.

I understand your POV that 10% and 15% are the standard in your world. Both are not in mine. I also understand that 10% and 15% may be the standard with more people than not. But I venture to guess that in major metropolitan areas 15-20% and higher are the norm for TS and around 15% for buffets. And the more I think about it, tloft had a very valid point about WDW's 18% tip on the DDP. Why would they pay their servers a higher tip than the standard for WDW restaurants unless it is the standard for WDW restaurants? I'm sure the beancounters had done their homework and knew that WDW servers wouldn't accept less than what the OOP diner gives on average. There's no way to really know the answer to that question but it really is food for thought.