2008 DDP - why tip 18% OOP ?

[PaulaSB12]

I do realize this, and it is sad that these people have this mentality. I was a server all through college and I could spot this type of person as soon as they sat down. I am actually for the added 18% gratuity added to parties of 6 or more.

What is wrong with this, you don't go to the store and buy a dvd only to have the store owner say now its time to pay something to my staffs wages. You don't go to the doctor and see him only to be told this is how much I am charging now there is an extra to pay my wages so why can't it be the same with waiters? Also if the service is terrible why on earth would some one reward them by paying 15%?

 

[tloft]

I'm sorry, but nobody is going to convince me that it's somehow wrong to tip "only" 10% at a Disney buffet.

David

If this is the case, what is the point of the constant debate. The people who explain the whys and hows of good tipping usually do so because they are a friend or relative of someone in the business or were involved in the restaurant business at sometime. They have an obvious motive for explaining why they think higher levels of tipping and greater consideration for the servers should be exercised. What is your motive in trying to convince people otherwise? If you know that "nobody is going to convince me" then you clearly have no interest in considering anyone elses opinion. If you (anybody) is set in their ways about how to tip then keep it to yourself. The people who work at restaurants have a right to try to influence people into understanding the difficulties of their job and the justification for better tipping. I do not see what anyone who knows that no matter what they only tip x% stands to gain by pushing this idea onto others. If you know that you are only go to tip x% and there is no posssibility of that changing then your only goal could be to convince others to do the same. This is no different than anyone else lobbying the managers / owners / supervisors in other fields to reduce pay rates. Not everyone (by a longshot) in the food and beverage business is a college kid trying to score drinking money. I am a married father of 2 that owns a restaurant. My youngest front of house employee is 28 years old. This is how we make our livings. It is extraordinarily offensive that people spend so much time and energy on these boards convincing people that they tip too much or should tip less.

 

[paulh]

My youngest front of house employee is 28 years old. This is how we make our livings. It is extraordinarily offensive that people spend so much time and energy on these boards convincing people that they tip too much or should tip less.

pay a proper wage and then there will be no arguement over haveing to tip.i know that it then will be reflected in food bill
Paulh

 

[tloft]

pay a proper wage and then there will be no arguement over haveing to tip.i know that it then will be reflected in food bill
Paulh

The vast majority of customers are comfortable with tipping in the 18% - 22% range. Good tippers simply balance out the bad tippers. Tips on gross sales average slightly over 20% at my restaurant. If I increase salaries to compensate for this difference I would have to raise menu prices 20% on top of that you will now pay 8.5% tax on food and 13.5% tax on alcoholic drinks on the raised price. Too illustrate, a $100 tab (no booze) would have been $108.50 plus tax; at 18% tip this brings your total $126.50. If I simply raise prices the new total becomes $120 for the food,no gratuity, plus $10.20 tax equals $130.20. A difference of $3.70 or 3.7%. For every $100 spent we are now handing Uncle Sam an extra $3.70 with the employee breaking even at best and the customer footing the bill. For people that quibble about the difference between 15% and 18% this should seem significant. This will additionally raise payroll expenses, workers compensation, liability insurance, licensing fees and a variety of fees associated with the size or payroll or gross sales.

But more than any of these factors, as many others have pointed out customers are very sensitive to menu prices. Chain restaurants literally spend millions annually researching what they can and can't get away with. I guarantee if there was enough demand for restaurants that did all in pricing then it would be an Applebees, Chilis, Longhorns or the like pulling the trigger first. The customer will not take the time to process that their is no gratuity and it is probably the same. They will simply see a cheeseburger they think is worth $6 suddenly priced at $7.20 and go to my nearest competitor.

The reality is people like you make out the best. No one can make you tip anything unless it is explicitly stated up front as a term of service. Reap the benefits and tip as little as you like. There are plenty of others making up for you or there wouldn't be people like mine making a good living in the business.

 

[bicker]

... why can't it be the same with waiters?

"Why can't it be?" Of course, it could be. However, the real point is that it isn't. How the cost-of-service is allocated between menu price and gratuity is a matter of cultural norms. Some day it may change. Probably not anytime soon, though.

 

[bicker]

The vast majority of customers are comfortable with tipping in the 18% - 22% range.

I don't believe you.

If you mentioned a more reasonable range, such as 15% - 20% I could see you using the word "majority" in conjunction with that range. Leaving out 15%, which is perhaps the single most common integral number associated with restaurant gratuities, excludes the word "majority" from consideration IMHO.

 

[bicker]

Duplicate message.

 

[paulh]

.

The reality is people like you make out the best. No one can make you tip anything unless it is explicitly stated up front as a term of service. Reap the benefits and tip as little as you like. There are plenty of others making up for you or there wouldn't be people like mine making a good living in the business.

please dont say that i dont tip,i do .But my point is if its expected to tip 18% and your handed a bill for the tip of 18%,to me thats insulting me in thinking that i have to tip that amount.If handed a bill for the tip to me seams like begging for it JMHO please dont flame me for it.
Paulh

 

[gina2000]

Yes, very true. I think people make the mistake of thinking gratuities are "optional" -- they're not. Gratuities are discretionary. BIG difference. You can choose how much to tip -- you don't choose whether or not to tip.

Totally agree. (Scary, ain't it, Bicker?)

If you mentioned a more reasonable range, such as 15% - 20% I could see you using the word "majority" in conjunction with that range. Leaving out 15%, which is perhaps the single most common integral number associated with restaurant gratuities, excludes the word "majority" from consideration IMHO.

I think different areas of the country have different mindsets concerning tipping percentages. I do think that many people still feel that 15% is more than acceptable for good service. I agree again! Bicker....get up off the floor and applaud!


I do worry that people are already jawboning possible tipping percentages. I suspect that WDW will present patrons with the actual dining bill with a 0 balance due (assuming no extras). And I think people who normally do not eat TS or have only eaten TS on the DDP will be in shock. Hopefully, they won't take it out on the waitstaff. Let's face it, WDW dining OOP is not the same price as your local chain. And to tip based on WDW prices may be a new experience for some. I think we'll have to see how the waitstaff is treated in the coming year.

 

[pooch]

I agree with Tloft, if you have been associated with the food service industry in some form, you probably see the tipping debate from a different perspective (wow it took me a long time to phrase that correctly!)

My Dad died when we were very young. Mom supported us on a waitress income. The minimum wage for servers is VERY low because the gov. factors in tips as a part of hourly wage. How they make distinctions between low end and high end establishments, I don't know. But I know we lived on those tips.

Fast forward to last year and the Free Dining Plan. I knew in my head that the servers were getting an 18% tip included BUT DH and I were pathologically incapable of leaving the restaurant without somehow thanking the servers for their efforts and, except for one particularly disinterested server at LTT, routinely left an additional $10 on the table.

One of my biggest vacation joys is sitting down to a good, sometimes, great meal. (and, if you could see me, it shows!!!) The servers in WDW have to not only be servers but tour guides and entertainers. Cut them some slack and be reasonable with your tipping. I see my Mother, God rest her soul, in every one of them.

 

[JimMIA]

What is wrong with this, you don't go to the store and buy a dvd only to have the store owner say now its time to pay something to my staffs wages. You don't go to the doctor and see him only to be told this is how much I am charging now there is an extra to pay my wages

True...but a bit of a silly argument. This is arguing one person's idea of a perfect world vs. the reality of the world as it is. In Europe, you do pay servers a living wage and include the costs of that in the price of the food. Many Americans go to Europe and come back complaining about the cost of everything...especially the food.

Our experiences in our own culture and our personal view of the world are irrelevent on their best day when we go to another country. It's a different culture, with different norms, and customary behavior in one place is likely to be considered very rude behavior in a different culture.

Here in the colonies, we don't pay our servers a living wage. Bicker says maybe that will change someday, but the trend is going the opposite way. We not only don't pay them a living wage, in many restaurants they are scheduled for parttime only, so we are not required to even provide basic benefits like health insurance.

You may not like tipping waitstaff, but you probably don't like driving on the righthand side of the road here either. But as long as you're here, both are expected -- one is the law, the other is just simple good manners.

 

[tloft]

I don't believe you.

If you mentioned a more reasonable range, such as 15% - 20% I could see you using the word "majority" in conjunction with that range. Leaving out 15%, which is perhaps the single most common integral number associated with restaurant gratuities, excludes the word "majority" from consideration IMHO.

I can only speak specifically about the restaurant that I own and others I have worked at. At the end of the night our tips are always over 20% of the gross sales. If they are not there is usually much consternation and recounting involved. I know these numbers would be high for a chain restaurant but that is why I have a desirable place to work. We have a consistent regular clientele that appreciate good service and tip accordingly. We do not get a lot of business travelers tipping exactly 15% per company rules. We are also located in a particularly affluent part of town. (The restaurant is not in Columbia, SC where I live now - in case you look at the signature). We do a healthy bar business also and a good Friday or Saturday can net closer to 30% in tips if the right crowd comes in. On the other end I nor anyone else at the restaurant takes offense at a 15% tip and I have no problem tipping 10% at a buffet (although I fall on the side of Disney buffets not being the same as Shoneys).

So I guess I meant "majority" as it pertains to my clientele - which is exactly what I would have to base it on if I was to try to raise my employees' pay and have a grauitity included pricing. I have no doubt that 15 - 18% is probably more the norm nationally. However, I doubt Disney was paying their employess 18% of menu prices as a part of the DDP the last three years out of the goodness of their hearts. They are not known as being generous with their pay scale. Every server I asked, on two trips on DDP said they were tip 18% on full menu price of everything ordered. They had no motive to lie, since that only discourages or reduces any extra tip I might give. 18% on four apps, four entrees, four desserts, and drinks is pretty hefty. If Disney hadn't determined this to be close to the median or average tip I can't imagine they would have used it as their standard.

 

[Pooh Bear Hugs]

pay a proper wage and then there will be no arguement over haveing to tip.i know that it then will be reflected in food bill
Paulh

This is what it boils down to why can't the staff be paid a wage they can live on. In the uk we pay our staff enough not to go hungry if they go without tips.

 

[paulh]

You may not like tipping waitstaff, but you probably don't like driving on the righthand side of the road here either. But as long as you're here, both are expected -- one is the law, the other is just simple good manners.

could you please tell me which one is the law and which one is good manners as reading a lot of posts here it seams thet the tip is the law
Paulh
plus its good manners to eat with a knife and fork,but thats anouther debate

 

[Uncleromulus]

Back to the reality of the new gratuity situation as it may pertain to guests at WDW using the 2008 DDP--
I agree with Gina2000 that will be quite a bit of "gratuity shock" when those guests see what the tip can come to, especially after dinner at the Signature restaurants. And if they had the DDP before, having never paid any gratuity at all!!
I really hope that most will take that into account when calculating how much $$ they are going to "save" with the new DDP. But I do fear that many won't, and the servers at WDW will --in a # of cases--end up on the short end of the stick.
WE shall see----

 

[Pooh Bear Hugs]

I can only speak specifically about the restaurant that I own and others I have worked at. work. We have a consistent regular clientele that appreciate good service and tip accordingly. We do not get a lot of business travelers tipping exactly 15% per company rules. We are also located in a particularly affluent part of town. (The restaurant is not in Columbia, SC where I live now - in case you look at the signature). We do a healthy bar business also and a good Friday or Saturday can net closer to 30% in tips if the right crowd comes in.

If you are doing so well why not pay the staff a good wage. It seems in this and many other cases it is the owners greed for profits that is cheating the staff, not the % of tip.

 

[JimMIA]

please dont say that i dont tip,i do .But my point is if its expected to tip 18% and your handed a bill for the tip of 18%,to me thats insulting me in thinking that i have to tip that amount.If handed a bill for the tip to me seams like begging for it JMHO please dont flame me for it.
Paulh

Not flaming you Paul, but I think there is still some confusion about recommended gratuities and bills for included gratuities.

If a server presents you with a check for your dinner, and a little card or printout showing tip calculations for various percentages, that is just a not-very-subtle "courtesy" reminder of our crazy American custom of tipping.

If you want to be offended by that, go ahead. If you want to tip 15-20% anyway, go ahead. If you don't feel the service deserves 15%, go ahead and leave as much or as little as you feel is warranted. As Bicker said above, that's a discretionary matter...so use your discretion.

On the other hand, if you are presented with a check which includes an 18% gratuity (because you used DDE, or the check is for non-DDP items, or because your party has six or more people) that is a completely different story.

Nobody is trying to shake you down for a tip in that case. That gratuity is automatically included per the restaurant's policies and it is part of the price of the dinner. Whether a customer thinks the practice is right, wrong, or indifferent is irrelevent -- it's part of the price of the meal. The menu advises you of that fact before you order, all the DDE literature tells you that, the DDP brochure tells you an 18% tip will be added -- there are no surprises.

The difference between this tip and the one above is you OWE this tip. If you don't think it's justified because of bad service, you need to take that up with a manager, because you OWE an included tip unless the restaurant takes it off the check.

 

[Uncleromulus]

POoh bear Hugs:
I thnk you'll find that the profit margin at most restaurants is relatively low to begin with. And as had already been mentioned, raising server wages to what they should be (or what the market would bear) would raise menu prices VERY high. Good servers would want good wages--probably 5 times or more than the $2.85 an hour most earn now. Don't pay them that AND remove tips--server quality will suffer big time. Not many would even want the job.

 

[tloft]

If you are doing so well why not pay the staff a good wage. It seems in this and many other cases it is the owners greed for profits that is cheating the staff, not the % of tip.

I think I offered a pretty good list of economic reasons that being the only restaurant that functions this way wouldn't be viable. I am also sorry that you resent that I express that my restaurant does well. I never made in any reference to my profitability. I have employees who have been with me over 5 years and probably make more money than I do since I do not have time to serve or bartend any more. I'm glad as a small, single business I am now getting lectured about corporate greed on the Dis.

 

[Lewisc]

The brochure is confusing. It sounds like DDP guests, parties under 6, will be getting billed an 18% gratuity on any items paid out of pocket but will be expected to tip appropriately on the included items.

Technically the automatic 18% gratuity, for parties of 6 or more, isn't a tip or gratuity it's a service charge and as such it isn't discretionary.