What can I do to protect MIL from scams?

[barkley]

Everything you have said that has been happening and accelerating tells me that as you are attempting to lock down her assets ~ please contact an Elder Attorney and fight for conservatorship. She can stay where she is and feel/live fairly independent, conservator just has control of her assets, money etc. They will pay her bills, oversee her banking and assets. You could set her up with a bank account where you deposit minimal in each month for her extras with no connection to her other accounts (aka only account at a bank where there is nothing else). There is reporting to be done but she is losing her money way too fast!

I would also start process of filing police reports against her abuser(s) and the banks should be able to trace where the money went.

Also if she owns her home contact the real estate record & tax department and see about adding an alert to her account. If anyone attempts any kind of business with her home you will be notified immediately. We have that on ours just because of all the paper crooks out there. Or you could move it into a trust with her children as trustees. Also at her passing the house would avoid probate.

I am just going to put this out-if mil does not want a conservator then unless she is determined to be incompetent it can't be done. being deemed incompetent is (esp. in these post 'free britney' times) at best one of the most difficult legal endeavors to take on. a 'simple' guardianship (no control of financials) alone that even has the agreement of the individual entails extensive reviews of substantiating documentation from a variety of sources (medical/psych providers to begin with-if you find ones who will agree to it b/c w/o a clear diagnosis they are hesitant and resistant), investigations, interviews and reporting by the guardian ad litem who will represent the individual.

elder financial abuse is horrific (any kind of financial abuse is) but the courts do not want to err on the side of taking away the basic rights of any adult. the process of even a basic guardianship can take months. an elder law attorney can advise if something meets the criteria for an emergency court order but absent existing substantiating documentation and medicals it is likely a long-shot.

all the sons of the mil (and if they all agree to it-their wives) should do a group consult with an elder law attorney. find out what can and canNOT be done. find out safeguards they can put into place with mom's approval. if conservatorship is warranted it can be decided if someone in the family will do it (not for the weak, not for someone who does not want to be the 'bad guy', not for someone who does not want to be responsible for tremendous reporting to/oversight by the courts and potentially adult protective services-many opt for a paid private conservator).

don't mean to talk this option down, just want you to be aware-this is as i'm in the process of doing my son's almost 30 page yearly annual report and plan of action for 24/25/26 that I have to have the courts approve so I can turn around and get his guardianship paperwork renewal paperwork filed (conservators have to file over 2x the paperwork in my jurisdiction).

 

[rnorwo1]

I found out my 85 year old dad was wiring money to various women around the globe. When we confronted him, he just removed us from his bank accounts. So now we cant see any transactions. Lonely old men, what you gonna do?

That's my worst nightmare. I've already see messages where they were telling her her family was abusive and controlling and walking her through how to avoid us/block us. There has to be a very special place for this type of criminal.

 

[fla4fun]

That's my worst nightmare. I've already see messages where they were telling her her family was abusive and controlling and walking her through how to avoid us/block us. There has to be a very special place for this type of criminal.

People like this are why I trust no one outside of my immediate family. Fortunately I am blessed with a sister and BIL who are extremely trustworthy and would always have my best interests at heart. No one would be able to convince me otherwise. I really don’t understand how these criminals can convince people that the family who loves them is all of a sudden the enemy, but obviously they do. I hope there is a special place for these people and that more of them get caught so they cannot abuse anyone else.

 

[gottalovepluto]

What else can we do? Her sons (one's my husband who will listen to me) want to just lock it all down and even restrict her driving or ability to have any access to anything, but I want her to maintain as much independence and dignity as possible; however, we have to assume that she will never be able to make good judgment calls with anything in this arena.

Dignity and desire for independence has nothing to do with her being fully capable of operating a motor vehicle. As bad as you feel for her or as annoying as it will be for those in her life for her to have limited/no driving, just make sure that decision is based on cold hard facts. The last thing you need is her running into someone or something or driving off to heaven knows where because she forgot where her house was.

Very sorry you're going through this. Scum of the earth those who prey on our most vulnerable.

 

[rnorwo1]

I am just going to put this out-if mil does not want a conservator then unless she is determined to be incompetent it can't be done. being deemed incompetent is (esp. in these post 'free britney' times) at best one of the most difficult legal endeavors to take on. a 'simple' guardianship (no control of financials) alone that even has the agreement of the individual entails extensive reviews of substantiating documentation from a variety of sources (medical/psych providers to begin with-if you find ones who will agree to it b/c w/o a clear diagnosis they are hesitant and resistant), investigations, interviews and reporting by the guardian ad litem who will represent the individual.

elder financial abuse is horrific (any kind of financial abuse is) but the courts do not want to err on the side of taking away the basic rights of any adult. the process of even a basic guardianship can take months. an elder law attorney can advise if something meets the criteria for an emergency court order but absent existing substantiating documentation and medicals it is likely a long-shot.

all the sons of the mil (and if they all agree to it-their wives) should do a group consult with an elder law attorney. find out what can and canNOT be done. find out safeguards they can put into place with mom's approval. if conservatorship is warranted it can be decided if someone in the family will do it (not for the weak, not for someone who does not want to be the 'bad guy', not for someone who does not want to be responsible for tremendous reporting to/oversight by the courts and potentially adult protective services-many opt for a paid private conservator).

don't mean to talk this option down, just want you to be aware-this is as i'm in the process of doing my son's almost 30 page yearly annual report and plan of action for 24/25/26 that I have to have the courts approve so I can turn around and get his guardianship paperwork renewal paperwork filed (conservators have to file over 2x the paperwork in my jurisdiction).

We will know more after the neuropsych testing is done, but I'll be shocked if she has significant impairment other than this awful lack of judgment with these scams. So, I'm definitely not interested in this. I'm going to collect all I can in case it ever gets to that, but hopefully it doesn't! I didn't know elder-law was a thing, so this is very helpful!

 

[rnorwo1]

Dignity and desire for independence has nothing to do with her being fully capable of operating a motor vehicle. As bad as you feel for her or as annoying as it will be for those in her life for her to have limited/no driving, just make sure that decision is based on cold hard facts. The last thing you need is her running into someone or something or driving off to heaven knows where because she forgot where her house was.

Very sorry you're going through this. Scum of the earth those who prey on our most vulnerable.

Sorry for the confusion- the no-driving thing was so that she could not get to the bank to wire money or the store to buy gift cards, not because she cannot drive safely. She's still doing really well with that. I'll 100% support them shutting that down the moment that changes!

 

[afan]

The last thing you need is her running into someone or something or driving off to heaven knows where because she forgot where her house was

And it can also be they just shouldn't drive at night which is what happened with my grandpa. He got confused on the freeway on the way home from his sister's and ended up over 2 hours north off the freeway in some residential area. Thankfully they had their own security who found the contact numbers he had in his wallet and called us early Sat morning. They'd found his sleeping in his truck and confused, talking about kids. He decided not to drive after dark after that. But that did start the discussion of taking his keys away.

I'm amazed every time my mom makes it home safely. She only uses her mirrors and her suv has some blinds spots. I've started driving most of the time when we go somewhere.

 

[rnorwo1]

Everything you have said that has been happening and accelerating tells me that as you are attempting to lock down her assets ~ please contact an Elder Attorney and fight for conservatorship. She can stay where she is and feel/live fairly independent, conservator just has control of her assets, money etc. They will pay her bills, oversee her banking and assets. You could set her up with a bank account where you deposit minimal in each month for her extras with no connection to her other accounts (aka only account at a bank where there is nothing else). There is reporting to be done but she is losing her money way too fast!

I would also start process of filing police reports against her abuser(s) and the banks should be able to trace where the money went.

Also if she owns her home contact the real estate record & tax department and see about adding an alert to her account. If anyone attempts any kind of business with her home you will be notified immediately. We have that on ours just because of all the paper crooks out there. Or you could move it into a trust with her children as trustees. Also at her passing the house would avoid probate.

I never thought about the real estate, this is very helpful. Adding it to my list, thanks!!

 

[HopperFan]

I am just going to put this out-if mil does not want a conservator then unless she is determined to be incompetent it can't be done. being deemed incompetent is (esp. in these post 'free britney' times) at best one of the most difficult legal endeavors to take on. a 'simple' guardianship (no control of financials) alone that even has the agreement of the individual entails extensive reviews of substantiating documentation from a variety of sources (medical/psych providers to begin with-if you find ones who will agree to it b/c w/o a clear diagnosis they are hesitant and resistant), investigations, interviews and reporting by the guardian ad litem who will represent the individual.

elder financial abuse is horrific (any kind of financial abuse is) but the courts do not want to err on the side of taking away the basic rights of any adult. the process of even a basic guardianship can take months. an elder law attorney can advise if something meets the criteria for an emergency court order but absent existing substantiating documentation and medicals it is likely a long-shot.

all the sons of the mil (and if they all agree to it-their wives) should do a group consult with an elder law attorney. find out what can and canNOT be done. find out safeguards they can put into place with mom's approval. if conservatorship is warranted it can be decided if someone in the family will do it (not for the weak, not for someone who does not want to be the 'bad guy', not for someone who does not want to be responsible for tremendous reporting to/oversight by the courts and potentially adult protective services-many opt for a paid private conservator).

don't mean to talk this option down, just want you to be aware-this is as i'm in the process of doing my son's almost 30 page yearly annual report and plan of action for 24/25/26 that I have to have the courts approve so I can turn around and get his guardianship paperwork renewal paperwork filed (conservators have to file over 2x the paperwork in my jurisdiction).

I agree with you, it is not to be taken lightly nor is it an easy task. But giving away tens of thousands of dollars to a stranger in just a few weeks is a good reason to pursue with an attorney.

Personally I am a Legal Guardian and responsible for all finances for someone. Judge said since they have no assets just monthly in/out banking that I didn't need conservator. My DH was a conservator for his mother because she had assets.

I will say that every state/jurisdiction handles Guardianship and Conservatorship very different. I have been a Legal Guardian for 22 years and never had to renew or return to court. It will depend on the rules where they live how much is involved.

We will know more after the neuropsych testing is done, but I'll be shocked if she has significant impairment other than this awful lack of judgment with these scams. So, I'm definitely not interested in this. I'm going to collect all I can in case it ever gets to that, but hopefully it doesn't! I didn't know elder-law was a thing, so this is very helpful!

We just spent a year with our Elder & Disabled Law attorney getting our retirement age selves in perfect order and to get DS protected in many ways. Find an Elder Law attorney with LOTS of good reviews (our last one screwed stuff up).

Know that there is Guardianship, which she probably doesn't need and that is what takes away rights to make decisions about herself. Then there is Conservatorship, which allows one of you or a private company to oversee her money, her stocks, her home ownership etc. For her it could be viewed as her accountant or business manager. You can totally have money she has access to that is replenished (say her SS check every month) while her other assets are being managed, protecting them for her future.

I never thought about the real estate, this is very helpful. Adding it to my list, thanks!!

In this type of situation one thing they are after is her house if she owns it outright. They will get her to sign the deed over to them. It has become such a problem that most tax districts have a thing in place where you get instant notification someone is trying. We just moved our home into a trust and we both got emails with red flags on the property. So I know it works here.

Question, what are these adult children going to do if she just gives away all her assets, becomes homeless and needs a home and care? I think I would attempt to stop this before it happens, no matter how hard, because it sounds like that is the path she is on.

I wish you luck.

 

[rnorwo1]

I agree with you, it is not to be taken lightly nor is it an easy task. But giving away tens of thousands of dollars to a stranger in just a few weeks is a good reason to pursue with an attorney.

Personally I am a Legal Guardian and responsible for all finances for someone. Judge said since they have no assets just monthly in/out banking that I didn't need conservator. My DH was a conservator for his mother because she had assets.

I will say that every state/jurisdiction handles Guardianship and Conservatorship very different. I have been a Legal Guardian for 22 years and never had to renew or return to court. It will depend on the rules where they live how much is involved.


We just spent a year with our Elder & Disabled Law attorney getting our retirement age selves in perfect order and to get DS protected in many ways. Find an Elder Law attorney with LOTS of good reviews (our last one screwed stuff up).

Know that there is Guardianship, which she probably doesn't need and that is what takes away rights to make decisions about herself. Then there is Conservatorship, which allows one of you or a private company to oversee her money, her stocks, her home ownership etc. For her it could be viewed as her accountant or business manager. You can totally have money she has access to that is replenished (say her SS check every month) while her other assets are being managed, protecting them for her future.


In this type of situation one thing they are after is her house if she owns it outright. They will get her to sign the deed over to them. It has become such a problem that most tax districts have a thing in place where you get instant notification someone is trying. We just moved our home into a trust and we both got emails with red flags on the property. So I know it works here.

Question, what are these adult children going to do if she just gives away all her assets, becomes homeless and needs a home and care? I think I would attempt to stop this before it happens, no matter how hard, because it sounds like that is the path she is on.

I wish you luck.

Very helpful, thank you! We are putting everything in place that we can think of to stop it from happening again, as long as she's cooperative. We were able to take credit card, change bank accounts, and I'm working on freezing credit, etc. I'm getting online access to everything and have asked bank and credit union to notify us if she tries to do anything, and I'm monitoring her phone and ipad remotely now. I hope it's enough. I'm actually the one who wants to keep her as independent as possible but with serious guardrails (like with a prepaid debit card or something), but they want her on complete lockdown. If she's savvy enough to find ways around the guardrails, or she becomes uncooperative and refuses, then hopefully we will have enough documentation by then to take legal action.

 

[barkley]

Personally I am a Legal Guardian and responsible for all finances for someone. Judge said since they have no assets just monthly in/out banking that I didn't need conservator. My DH was a conservator for his mother because she had assets.

I will say that every state/jurisdiction handles Guardianship and Conservatorship very different. I have been a Legal Guardian for 22 years and never had to renew or return to court. It will depend on the rules where they live how much is involved.

our state only issues letters of guardianship (or conservatorship) for a period of one year at a time so they have to be renewed every year and to do that the annual plan/reports have to first be approved (so one is due 5 months prior to the expiration of the other each year). we were also required to go through a court overseen in person training program prior to the initial court approval. conservatorship has SO many more reporting requirements and additional training mandates are in place here.

We just spent a year with our Elder & Disabled Law attorney getting our retirement age selves in perfect order and to get DS protected in many ways. Find an Elder Law attorney with LOTS of good reviews (our last one screwed stuff up).

researching an elder law attorney is very important. you want an actual elder law attorney-not one that dabbles in it along with other specialties. it is so important to have one that not only knows the law but also Medicare and Medicaid regulations (and trends in changes) so that they can make reccommendations that take into consideration what is important down the line as well as immediately. I saw a couple of irrevocable trusts that horribly disadvantaged clients when I administered Medicaid programs due to lacking knowledge on an attorney's part.

 

[HopperFan]

our state only issues letters of guardianship (or conservatorship) for a period of one year at a time so they have to be renewed every year and to do that the annual plan/reports have to first be approved (so one is due 5 months prior to the expiration of the other each year). we were also required to go through a court overseen in person training program prior to the initial court approval. conservatorship has SO many more reporting requirements and additional training mandates are in place here.

Why I say it is important to understand the requirements and parameters of where one lives. Our experience has been very different from yours. So before anyone starts the process it is good to find out what is required.

researching an elder law attorney is very important. you want an actual elder law attorney-not one that dabbles in it along with other specialties. it is so important to have one that not only knows the law but also Medicare and Medicaid regulations (and trends in changes) so that they can make reccommendations that take into consideration what is important down the line as well as immediately. I saw a couple of irrevocable trusts that horribly disadvantaged clients when I administered Medicaid programs due to lacking knowledge on an attorney's part.

Absolutely, why I said to check them out first. We used our first one 25 years ago and they were suggested through an advocacy group. Our current one specializes in Elder and Disability and were worth their weight in gold. In one meeting he got a top Medicaid person on the phone to work through some issues. Months of me trying to get things done without success getting anyone to help and it was done in minutes through lawyer.

 

[OrangeBirdGirl]

I'm sorry you are going through this. That is horrible what these scammers are doing to her. You have had alot of great advice.

But one thing I wonder is, is your MIL lonely and that's what she is engaging with online people? I'm not sure if she'd be open to it, but maybe try to get involved with people in the area. Through church, senior groups, etc? She might be seeking interaction she's not getting in real life. Or possibly, she does not want to go and do stuff like this outside the home and is not social, so that is harder then because it might just be "easy" for her to talk to these people online.

Good luck!

 

[MsOnceUponATime]

On topic, but not the same so somewhat off topic:

We have watched our elderly neighbors over the past 5 years both mentally decline. They are in their 70's, have been retired for a long time, and have no children.

Last year the wife drove her car almost to the next town over to have her nails done (same place she'd gone for ages,) and got very lost. The nail tech called the husband, who was at home, and asked if she was coming in. The husband became frantic and called the police. The police went and searched for her. She had gotten lost, didn't know where she was and stepped out of her car to ask a gentlemen to get her help. He called the police and long story short -- the husband's call and the gentlemen's call to the police put the pieces together, and she was able to be picked up by her husband at the police station.
The husband then asked my husband if he would drive along with him and go pick up his wife's card. My husband said -- oh no, we'll go get her car. So my husband and I went a LONG LONG way to get her car. Her car was over 30 minutes away (but still in our city) smack in the middle of a cul-de-sac. Not anywhere close to her nail salon. Sigh. Later that evening the husband came over and told us that his wife told him to put her car up for sale - that she was not driving anywhere alone ever again. And so, it was. ..... That car was sold by the end of that week.

That should have been our first sign to try to keep a closer eye on them, but...

Later last year the husband confessed that "The Geek Squad" scam happened to him. I'm just going to link it here. It's pretty detailed.
https://lifelock.norton.com/learn/f...0i0cm3zn7d6plSxYpDMA-wDek8gPs0ZZBan_0bqROAtSA My neighbors were scammed out of roughly $70-$100k. He fell for the scam and she gave out the money. Sigh. My husband told the neighbor husband after that -- "my wife is very tech savvy, you can always reach out to her if you need technical help."

I think his family is all deceased and her family is just one brother -- or it's his family that is just one brother and her family is deceased.

There is not much of anything that we can do to help them because they're not personally "close" to us. Although they do live right next door we don't have that type of relationship. My husband checks in on them about every other day. We've told them to please check with us when/if they need help, but they really don't. There is not much of anything that we can do to help them because they're just not close to us. Sadly, I'm sure that other things have happened that we just don't know about.

On Easter I made a small Easter goodie box, and my husband took it over to their house. A small gesture of friendship and care on our part which hopefully equates being truly neighborly on their part. I would like them to know that we are there for them in their times of doubt - or if something just doesn't seem quite right. But -- they seem older and set in their ways and I think that, sadly, it falls on deaf ears.

 

[lanejudy]

If she's savvy enough to find ways around the guardrails, or she becomes uncooperative and refuses, then hopefully we will have enough documentation by then to take legal action.

Just know that is unlikely to be a quick process. Getting access as official PoA now rather than later is important. While it does require her agreement, it doesn't mean she "loses" her independence; it allows you (or a son - whomever) to officially act on her behalf -- such as asking the bank to notify. If you are not on the account and don't have PoA, the bank might not follow through with your request.

 

[rnorwo1]

On topic, but not the same so somewhat off topic:

We have watched our elderly neighbors over the past 5 years both mentally decline. They are in their 70's, have been retired for a long time, and have no children.

Last year the wife drove her car almost to the next town over to have her nails done (same place she'd gone for ages,) and got very lost. The nail tech called the husband, who was at home, and asked if she was coming in. The husband became frantic and called the police. The police went and searched for her. She had gotten lost, didn't know where she was and stepped out of her car to ask a gentlemen to get her help. He called the police and long story short -- the husband's call and the gentlemen's call to the police put the pieces together, and she was able to be picked up by her husband at the police station.
The husband then asked my husband if he would drive along with him and go pick up his wife's card. My husband said -- oh no, we'll go get her car. So my husband and I went a LONG LONG way to get her car. Her car was over 30 minutes away (but still in our city) smack in the middle of a cul-de-sac. Not anywhere close to her nail salon. Sigh. Later that evening the husband came over and told us that his wife told him to put her car up for sale - that she was not driving anywhere alone ever again. And so, it was. ..... That car was sold by the end of that week.

That should have been our first sign to try to keep a closer eye on them, but...

Later last year the husband confessed that "The Geek Squad" scam happened to him. I'm just going to link it here. It's pretty detailed.
https://lifelock.norton.com/learn/f...0i0cm3zn7d6plSxYpDMA-wDek8gPs0ZZBan_0bqROAtSA My neighbors were scammed out of roughly $70-$100k. He fell for the scam and she gave out the money. Sigh. My husband told the neighbor husband after that -- "my wife is very tech savvy, you can always reach out to her if you need technical help."

I think his family is all deceased and her family is just one brother -- or it's his family that is just one brother and her family is deceased.

There is not much of anything that we can do to help them because they're not personally "close" to us. Although they do live right next door we don't have that type of relationship. My husband checks in on them about every other day. We've told them to please check with us when/if they need help, but they really don't. There is not much of anything that we can do to help them because they're just not close to us. Sadly, I'm sure that other things have happened that we just don't know about.

On Easter I made a small Easter goodie box, and my husband took it over to their house. A small gesture of friendship and care on our part which hopefully equates being truly neighborly on their part. I would like them to know that we are there for them in their times of doubt - or if something just doesn't seem quite right. But -- they seem older and set in their ways and I think that, sadly, it falls on deaf ears.

That is so sad!

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Her sons (one's my husband who will listen to me) want to just lock it all down and even restrict her driving or ability to have any access to anything, but I want her to maintain as much independence and dignity as possible

While I do think perhaps it's a tad extreme at this point to restrict to the level of removing access for everything all at once, you're coming at it from a place that is mixing up things IMO.

Independence at her age would be more like where does she live in terms of care for her like how much assistance she would realistically require to caretake for her and at her home, is she able to drive competently, etc. Dignity is much the same.

But those aren't what you're dealing with because you're concerned about someone who is vulnerable due to outside harmful influences.

So far my mother-in-law hasn't done what yours has but she is however particularly vulnerable to tech situations. She'll click on links, she's had her paypal account (which then led to other things) hacked several times (which caused new banking accounts to be done) simply by clicking on things she shouldn't be (hacking itself happens to a lot of us but clicking links without second guessing is a different issue). She'll constantly believe things from extreme websites, or spam text messages, etc. It's essentially her common sense has flown out the window. And yes we often say this with society as a whole but there's a certain segment of people who instead of pausing and asking "does this seem right?" "does this seem logical", etc stopped. And there's also a level of concern for people who are not tech-savvy who are led astray like your mother-in-law has been in being taught how to do something they wouldn't have ordinarily thought to do. IIRC CVS (and I'm sure others) have warnings at the checkout if you buy a gift card to make sure you're aware that it can be used frequently for money scams.

I do echo what most have suggested about looking at legal avenues to have control over certain facets of her life because it presents a large risk in her financially speaking. Ultimately though I think because she is your mother-in-law your best bet is to understand the financial implications it may have on you if any but understand that you can only be the voice in the ear so much. That might be something to also speak to a legal representative about what things may be the fall out for you, if any, personally if this continues.