Transgender Gym Mess

[Gumbo4x4]

At our high school, no one cared. Ds16 had no issue changing in front of him, even though he was lacking a *****. None of the guys did. He wore underwear. He also happened to live 4 doors down from us, and when he was she, was friends with dd18 (slept over here a few times). Maybe it depends on where you live, but people are pretty progressive here. The gay/straight alliance club at the HS is pretty popular.

ETA - he identified as male, so he felt more comfortable changing in the boys room, and using the boys bathroom.

Yeah, I guess we're all a little backwards in your eyes. So much for not judging....

Oh, and for the record, we stripped naked both to dress out (athletic supporters) and to shower in my HS gym.

 

[Bec3b1g]

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does indeed include discrimination against citizens who identify as transgender.

I ran a transgender voice feminization group in grad school and really got to know the struggles and discrimination they face on a daily basis. It's unfortunate that we've not moved beyond the point of fear and discrimination and reached a point of acceptance.

I guess I wonder at what point the woman in the locker room would be ok with a trans person? After sex reassignment? After taking female hormones? Never? Sex reassignment surgery is the last step in a very long and expensive transition process. They've identified as a different gender way before they even get to that point. Why the fear?

 

[Gracie09]

The terms "Private Business" and "Public Accommodation" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Planet Fitness is likely both, but the definitions vary both federally and within each state. The definition you posted refers only to the Federal definition as it pertains to the equality oppertunties of persons with handicaps. But I think you mistakenly think that I'm trying to say that PF would NOT a public accommodation, when I've made no such claim. You also keep buttressing my assertions with your continued analogies.

If you are a private business who holds itself out to the general public, you are a public accommodation. Federal laws cover discrimination in public accommodations. They have since the 1960s. The federal law cover protected classes. Often state law has increased the classes in the protected classes category, but a state cannot say a class that is covered by the federal definition of protected classes is not a protected class by the state. So they can broaden the law but not shrink the law.

Just because you do not accept the analogy doesn't make the analogy false.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/chapter-21/subchapter-II

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I'm trying to figure out where the anti-trans people would have my 14 year old child go to change? He identifies (and looks) male. He is also attracted to males. He has girl parts. Where should he go?

In a family changing room because children are not allowed to be in the locker room at my gym, and many others.

 

[jbcheerchick93]

I appreciate the link, but it doesn't answer a whole lot for me other than saying they'll take lots of factors into consideration. I'm more interested in personal experiences.

There was a poster earlier about a school decision against allowing a trans person in their gender identified locker room because the parents of the students were against it.

I was in HS with a boy the year below me who was a transgender male. Born a female. He changed in the girl's locker room and was a straight male, and he used the girl's bathroom. I'm not sure which gender he lived with his freshman year of college, but I know that he now lives with other males at school. There were many people who didn't even know that he was a trans male, but for those of us who changed in the girl's locker room with him were never bothered by it.

 

[Divah]

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does indeed include discrimination against citizens who identify as transgender.

I ran a transgender voice feminization group in grad school and really got to know the struggles and discrimination they face on a daily basis. It's unfortunate that we've not moved beyond the point of fear and discrimination and reached a point of acceptance.

I guess I wonder at what point the woman in the locker room would be ok with a trans person? After gender reassignment? After taking female hormones? Never? Gender reassignment surgery is the last step in a very long and expensive transition process. They've identified as a different gender way before they even get to that point. Why the fear?

people identify with what can be seen and when what is seen outwardly is not the same inward it causes fear.

More knowledge and society evolution will help in my opinion..I fear it may be a generation or 2 till it is more comfortable for the majority.

While it has been decades since the African-American civil rights movement we still today have those who will not agree ( and that's their right) . It may be a long battle but till then it is a hot debate.

I support the movement but not at the cost of making those around me uncomfortable. Safety and educating should be foremost concern. Separate family style changing rooms...more privacy walls for both...

I believe every person should be equal and have the rights as everyone....in reality we are still fighting for those understanding ...

 

[Dawnlight]

I am focusing on the physical aspect because in a locker room, the physical aspect is the issue.

If one wants to say a teen who identifies as male but is completely physically female should use a men's locker room then to me that means that teen should be able to change, shower, clean up, whatever else, just as anyone else who uses that locker room. I cannot agree with that idea.
It puts the safety of the teen at risk and it puts the men at risk.

You can't say it's ok because the teen would take precautions to have privacy. That's making an assumption about how you expect someone would behave. It's also taking away from the whole argument that a transgender person is no different from those physically born that gender.

It seems to me like you are saying it'd be fine for the teen to use the men's locker room because he wouldn't be naked or showering with those adult men who are physically male.
Isn't the whole argument that the teen is no different from the men?

The trans person should be able to use the facility as intended, but it doesn't mean they are required to. Their choice, but I do think that before gender reassignment most would opt to be discreet about revealing the genitalia that doesn't coordinate with their identity.

How does it put the men at risk? I can understand that it may put the teen at risk, in this case (though I feel like it's very demeaning to men to assume that if given the opportunity to see a female part then they'd act in a violent way towards that person), but where is the risk for the men from the teen?

I'm not saying anything of the sort; they may use the bathroom that fits the gender they identify with. It's simple. They may use it clothed or unclothed. What I'm saying is that if given a choice between two bathrooms, male and female, a person who appears and identifies as male would (and in my opinion should) use the male facilities.

I don't think the argument is that the teen is no different; I think the argument is that the teen, and others, should be afforded equal rights and opportunity to use facilities that match the gender they identify with regardless of what their anatomy is.

 

[Kayabee]

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does indeed include discrimination against citizens who identify as transgender.

The reason we as a society have separate bathrooms for opposite sexes has nothing to do with discrimination. Setting up separate restrooms isn't done because one gender is inferior.
Transgender people should have every equal opportunity as anyone else, and it should not be held against them when applying for a job, buying a home, etc etc. Including them as protected class in order to make sure they are treated equally in those cases makes sense.
Using your sex locker room is a widely accepted societal norm, so someone expecting a person with male parts to use the men's room, or expecting someone with female parts to use the woman's is not discrimination at all. Making a law requiring a transgender person to use a specific bathroom would cross that line, but AFAIK there aren't any laws out there like that.
What have transgender people been doing before these news stories hit the 24 hour channels and social media. They used whatever bathroom they were comfortable in and nobody was the wiser. That is how it should be, they should be allowed to use the one that matches who they identify with, mentally or physically. It should be their choice.

 

[sunshinehighway]

The trans person should be able to use the facility as intended, but it doesn't mean they are required to. Their choice, but I do think that before gender reassignment most would opt to be discreet about revealing the genitalia that doesn't coordinate with their identity.

How does it put the men at risk? I can understand that it may put the teen at risk, in this case (though I feel like it's very demeaning to men to assume that if given the opportunity to see a female part then they'd act in a violent way towards that person), but where is the risk for the men from the teen?

I'm not saying anything of the sort; they may use the bathroom that fits the gender they identify with. It's simple. They may use it clothed or unclothed. What I'm saying is that if given a choice between two bathrooms, male and female, a person who appears and identifies as male would (and in my opinion should) use the male facilities.

I don't think the argument is that the teen is no different; I think the argument is that the teen, and others, should be afforded equal rights and opportunity to use facilities that match the gender they identify with regardless of what their anatomy is.

Putting men in a situation where they are alone with a physically female teen, all in various states of undress, absolutely puts them at risks for any number of accusations.
It has nothing to do with assuming the men would act violently or inappropriately.
The truth of the world in which we live is many men would be incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

 

[mjkacmom]

Putting men in a situation where they are alone with a physically female teen, all in various states of undress, absolutely puts them at risks for any number of accusations.
It has nothing to do with assuming the men would act violently or inappropriately.
The truth of the world in which we live is many men would be incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

Putting a person who,identifies with being male in a girls locker room also opens him up to accusations. Personally, as a mom of daughters, I'd prefer an individual who identifies as a male use the male facilities.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

The reason we as a society have separate bathrooms for opposite sexes has nothing to do with discrimination. Setting up separate restrooms isn't done because one gender is inferior.
Transgender people should have every equal opportunity as anyone else, and it should not be held against them when applying for a job, buying a home, etc etc. Including them as protected class in order to make sure they are treated equally in those cases makes sense.
Using your sex locker room is a widely accepted societal norm, so someone expecting a person with male parts to use the men's room, or expecting someone with female parts to use the woman's is not discrimination at all. Making a law requiring a transgender person to use a specific bathroom would cross that line, but AFAIK there aren't any laws out there like that.
What have transgender people been doing before these news stories hit the 24 hour channels and social media. They used whatever bathroom they were comfortable in and nobody was the wiser. That is how it should be, they should be allowed to use the one that matches who they identify with, mentally or physically. It should be their choice.

Actually - at least for the transgender people I know personally, which is admittedly a small number (3) - they found it very, very stressful. They avoided using gyms as much as possible. If you have male genitals but are walking into a men's change room at the gym after work - still dressed in a skirt and blouse and high heels - that isn't very comfortable. Yes, they absolutely should have the choice to use whichever change room they choose, and I hope we can be accepting of those decisions.

I agree that individual change rooms (or more family type change rooms) and probably individual restrooms would be a good direction to move in.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Putting a person who,identifies with being male in a girls locker room also opens him up to accusations. Personally, as a mom of daughters, I'd prefer an individual who identifies as a male use the male facilities.

That doesn't really makes sense to me.

 

[Bec3b1g]

The reason we as a society have separate bathrooms for opposite sexes has nothing to do with discrimination. Setting up separate restrooms isn't done because one gender is inferior.
Transgender people should have every equal opportunity as anyone else, and it should not be held against them when applying for a job, buying a home, etc etc. Including them as protected class in order to make sure they are treated equally in those cases makes sense.
Using your sex locker room is a widely accepted societal norm, so someone expecting a person with male parts to use the men's room, or expecting someone with female parts to use the woman's is not discrimination at all. Making a law requiring a transgender person to use a specific bathroom would cross that line, but AFAIK there aren't any laws out there like that.
What have transgender people been doing before these news stories hit the 24 hour channels and social media. They used whatever bathroom they were comfortable in and nobody was the wiser. That is how it should be, they should be allowed to use the one that matches who they identify with, mentally or physically. It should be their choice.

I think, if I understand you correctly, we agree. As of today, gender identity is a protected class under the Civil Rights Act. However, this has not been expanded to include access to public accommodations, such as bathrooms. It doesn't mean it's right. All it means is that we, as a society, haven't gotten there yet The US legal stance on gender identity and public restrooms is unclear.

We should all be able to live our truth--straight, gay, transgender. If our "societal norm" is such that a transgender woman in a woman's locker room invokes some sort of imagined harm (still unclear what that is), our culture needs to change.

I applaud the young transgender woman in the story. I'm sure she didn't start out to be in the spotlight and that can be uncomfortable, but her story will help encourage change and acceptance in others.

 

[Dawnlight]

Putting men in a situation where they are alone with a physically female teen, all in various states of undress, absolutely puts them at risks for any number of accusations.
It has nothing to do with assuming the men would act violently or inappropriately.
The truth of the world in which we live is many men would be incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

Accusations? Can't accusations against men be made by cis men? Is there a greater likelihood of accusations (curious as to what) because it's a transgendered person?

Men of this world can be uncomfortable because of the situation? Let me cry a river. Suck it up, buttercup!

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Putting a person who,identifies with being male in a girls locker room also opens him up to accusations. Personally, as a mom of daughters, I'd prefer an individual who identifies as a male use the male facilities.

I would think just the opposite.

And let's get to the heart of it. We've decided that it's okay for a person born a female to be so uncomfortable around other females that they get to change elsewhere. But at the same time, we've decided that it's NOT okay for people who are born male to be uncomfortable with sharing a locker room with someone who is physically not a male.

Is that really fair?


And yes, to the previous point, as a former HS male, putting me in a locker room with physical females may or may not have made me uncomfortable. As a grown man, the idea of physical teen girls in my locker room is definitely uncomfortable. I don't even friend them on Facebook, much less shower together.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

That doesn't really makes sense to me.

Let's say I identify as a man, although I have some female body parts. Perhaps I have a beard. I go into the women's change room - where there are teen girls - dressed as a man. What kind of reaction am I likely to get? I may be accused of going into the women's change room for all kinds of inappropriate reasons. Nobody knows what my genitals are if I'm not naked.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Let's say I identify as a man, although I have some female body parts. Perhaps I have a beard. I go into the women's change room - where there are teen girls - dressed as a man. What kind of reaction am I likely to get? I may be accused of going into the women's change room for all kinds of inappropriate reasons. Nobody knows what my genitals are if I'm not naked.

Okay, but plenty of people do get naked in change rooms.

 

[erin1715]

I think maybe some of the confusion, at least in my opinion, is stemming from the claim that gender and sex are different. Just because society tells us so, doesn't mean its fact.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Accusations? Can't accusations against men be made by cis men? Is there a greater likelihood of accusations (curious as to what) because it's a transgendered person?

Men of this world can be uncomfortable because of the situation? Let me cry a river. Suck it up, buttercup!

See there's the problem. You automatically jump to the idea that I'm saying a transgender person would be more likely to make an accusation against someone. That's you looking at an opinion that's different from yours and automatically assuming it's coming from somewhere it isn't.

Being dismissive and saying things like cry me a river and suck it up, buttercup do nothing for the points you are trying to make. All it does it make you seem close minded an incapable of having a rational discussion.

 

[Geoff_M]

If you are a private business who holds itself out to the general public, you are a public accommodation. Federal laws cover discrimination in public accommodations. They have since the 1960s. The federal law cover protected classes. Often state law has increased the classes in the protected classes category, but a state cannot say a class that is covered by the federal definition of protected classes is not a protected class by the state. So they can broaden the law but not shrink the law.

Just because you do not accept the analogy doesn't make the analogy false.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/chapter-21/subchapter-II

Well again, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here. I'm not addressing the "truthfulness" of your analogy, I was referring to its logical implications.