Transgender Gym Mess

[erin1715]

 

[Dawnlight]

People marrying animals shouldn't be wrong though, right? If thats what they feel they are attracted to...

I can't believe I'm even going to entertain this nonsense with an answer, but for one - animals can't give consent. Two human adults, of opposite or same gender, can give consent to whatever sexual acts they wish to take part in.

 

[Gracie09]

People marrying animals shouldn't be wrong though, right? If thats what they feel they are attracted to...

So what if a person feels like they are a different species? They were born a human but everything inside them tells them they aren't the right species. Does that mean that they actually aren't really human? Because they feel like they aren't? And species dysphoria is actually a thing. Some may say that's a ridiculous argument, but if society is all about the way a person feels then that is the road we are headed down. If there is no distinction between something being right and something being wrong, then you can make an argument that everything is right.

As long as they abide by animal protection laws, who cares if they want to act like a dog or cat etc. If they are not harming anyone or anything and it makes them happy, not my place to judge.

 

[Gracie09]

I can't believe I'm even going to entertain this nonsense with an answer, but for one - animals can't give consent. Two human adults, of opposite or same gender, can give consent to whatever sexual acts they wish to take part in.

beat me to it. But an animal also can't consent to a marriage. Since it must be entered into freely by both parties and there is no way to tell if an animal enters into the marriage freely it is not valid. Also an animal can't enter into a contract, which is what a marriage is essentially.

 

[erin1715]

As long as they abide by animal protection laws, who cares if they want to act like a dog or cat etc. If they are not harming anyone or anything and it makes them happy, not my place to judge.

Thank you. That makes sense.

 

[erin1715]

Alright I understand the argument against people marrying animals, but I still haven't really heard the reason species dysmorphia is different than transgenderism.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I think the distinction between what is right and what is wrong comes down to "things that are wrong harm others." If someone identifies as a man but has female genitals, and choose to present himself as a man to the world, nobody is harmed. What is wrong, is for others to cruelly insist that the person must dress and act like a woman no matter how he feels. Because that is causing pain and harm.

I don't know enough about species dysphoria to comment on it, really.

And no, I don't think people should marry animals because animals are not able to consent. And consent from both parties is an essential part of marriage.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

People marrying animals shouldn't be wrong though, right? If thats what they feel they are attracted to...

Oh the slippery slope fallacy presented as argument.

Those arguments are just a way to refute the issue at hand by dismissing it. Is there any reason to believe that allowing gay people to marry will create a movement for people to marry animals? Is there any evidence that is a reasonable slope to head down? Are there currently any movements to allow people to marry animals? Why would allowing gays marry make this any more likely?

Regardless, as far as the government is concerned, a marriage is a legal contract. While some people may be attracted to animals-animals cannot enter into legally binding contracts.

The primary reason why gay people want equal rights to legally marry (beyond recognizing a loving prternership) are to be afforded the legal rights of spouses. To be allowed to make medical/end of life decisions-to even be allowed to see their partner in a hospital emergency and other legal matters.

The "argument" of slippery slope is moot and a red herring

 

[Gracie09]

Alright I understand the argument against people marrying animals, but I still haven't really heard the reason species dysmorphia is different than transgenderism.

If it makes the transgendered person happy and doesn't harm anyone, who cares what gender they wish to live as.

 

[erin1715]

I think the distinction between what is right and what is wrong comes down to "things that are wrong harm others." If someone identifies as a man but has female genitals, and choose to present himself as a man to the world, nobody is harmed. What is wrong, is for others to cruelly insist that the person must dress and act like a woman no matter how he feels. Because that is causing pain and harm.

I don't know enough about species dysphoria to comment on it, really.

And no, I don't think people should marry animals because animals are not able to consent. And consent from both parties is an essential part of marriage.

I can agree with that about drawing the line at harming others, but then we would have to delve into a discussion about what you and I consider harmful, and I can't go there without getting points.

 

[erin1715]

Oh the slippery slope fallacy presented as argument.

Those arguments are just a way to refute the issue at hand by dismissing it. Is there any reason to believe that allowing gay people to marry will create a movement for people to marry animals? Is there any evidence that is a reasonable slope to head down? Are there currently any movements to allow people to marry animals? Why would allowing gays marry make this any more likely?

Regardless, as far as the government is concerned, a marriage is a legal contract. While some people may be attracted to animals-animals cannot enter into legally binding contracts.

The primary reason why gay people want equal rights to legally marry (beyond recognizing a loving prternership) are to be afforded the legal rights of spouses. To be allowed to make medical/end of life decisions-to even be allowed to see their partner in a hospital emergency and other legal matters.

The "argument" of slippery slope is moot and a red herring

For what its worth, I never said that I thought opening the door to gay marriage would lead to people marrying animals. Those words were put in my mouth, as I was labeled "one of those." I think under our government, all people should have equal rights, gay, straight, trans, women, etc. That does not mean that I have to agree that it's right, and just because my beliefs are different does not mean I would treat anyone with disrespect. I don't agree with my spouse all the time but that doesn't mean I don't love him.

 

[Tiggeroo]

Everything doesn't have to be a situation to assert your rights as you believe them to be. This thread has gotten ugly. There are a few people who come across as phobic of trans persons or even mean. However there are many people who just feel uncomfortable changing with somebody who seems to be the opposite sex and have had limited exposure to trans persons. There are some people who are involved personally with trans gendered individuals and are also level headed while others just want to push for every right they can. I was not sure how I felt about this issue but after reading this thread I do believe a separate bathroom is the answer. You can't guarantee safety in this world in any group bathroom. You also are bound to make some people uncomfortable. Use a separate bathroom and begin to befriend people in the gym. Help them to get to know you and be more comfortable. In five years the situation might be different. You can force it or you can work for gradual change that has the support of most people. A bathroom is not the thing to go to the wall for. Save that energy for rights in the workplace or equal access in other areas.

 

[aaarcher86]

There's nastiness on both sides in this thread.

And being nasty because of a difference in opinion no matter which side your on isn't okay, nor does it help your cause.

 

[SirDuff]

Everything doesn't have to be a situation to assert your rights as you believe them to be. This thread has gotten ugly. There are a few people who come across as phobic of trans persons or even mean. However there are many people who just feel uncomfortable changing with somebody who seems to be the opposite sex and have had limited exposure to trans persons. There are some people who are involved personally with trans gendered individuals and are also level headed while others just want to push for every right they can. I was not sure how I felt about this issue but after reading this thread I do believe a separate bathroom is the answer. You can't guarantee safety in this world in any group bathroom. You also are bound to make some people uncomfortable. Use a separate bathroom and begin to befriend people in the gym. Help them to get to know you and be more comfortable. In five years the situation might be different. You can force it or you can work for gradual change that has the support of most people. A bathroom is not the thing to go to the wall for. Save that energy for rights in the workplace or equal access in other areas.

Do you mean separate change rooms/bathrooms for everyone? In other words, everyone gets their own? Or, a "special" change room/bathroom for those that are transgender? Or, a "special" change room/bathroom for those that don't want to risk being in a change room/bathroom with someone who is transgendered?

 

[aaarcher86]

Oh the slippery slope fallacy presented as argument.

Those arguments are just a way to refute the issue at hand by dismissing it. Is there any reason to believe that allowing gay people to marry will create a movement for people to marry animals? Is there any evidence that is a reasonable slope to head down? Are there currently any movements to allow people to marry animals? Why would allowing gays marry make this any more likely?

Regardless, as far as the government is concerned, a marriage is a legal contract. While some people may be attracted to animals-animals cannot enter into legally binding contracts.

The primary reason why gay people want equal rights to legally marry (beyond recognizing a loving prternership) are to be afforded the legal rights of spouses. To be allowed to make medical/end of life decisions-to even be allowed to see their partner in a hospital emergency and other legal matters.

The "argument" of slippery slope is moot and a red herring

I'd like to know where she said anything about gay marriage?

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Everything doesn't have to be a situation to assert your rights as you believe them to be. This thread has gotten ugly. There are a few people who come across as phobic of trans persons or even mean. However there are many people who just feel uncomfortable changing with somebody who seems to be the opposite sex and have had limited exposure to trans persons. There are some people who are involved personally with trans gendered individuals and are also level headed while others just want to push for every right they can. I was not sure how I felt about this issue but after reading this thread I do believe a separate bathroom is the answer. You can't guarantee safety in this world in any group bathroom. You also are bound to make some people uncomfortable. Use a separate bathroom and begin to befriend people in the gym. Help them to get to know you and be more comfortable. In five years the situation might be different. You can force it or you can work for gradual change that has the support of most people. A bathroom is not the thing to go to the wall for. Save that energy for rights in the workplace or equal access in other areas.

Or, use a separate bathroom if you want to. Or perhaps choose to join gyms where the policies support you using the change room you feel is most appropriate. Or talk to the managers at the gym you want to go to about the options you'd prefer. You can use your energy any way you want, in any area that seems important to you.

While most people would prefer "gradual change," my reading of the history of the world is that change rarely happens that way. There was a war over slavery, and even after slaves were freed the struggle for civil rights didn't get far until a lot of people stood up and marched. Waiting doesn't really work.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I apologize if I am coming across as nasty. That's not my intention.

 

[Hrhpd]

That is your opinion. A lot of people believe they are what they are not - be it a bad singer who thinks they are great, a tall person who believes they are short, or someone with "lady bits" who believes she is man.

I am not sure if this has already been covered, but you do realize that more and more scientific studies are showing that there is strong evidence that gender identity is not a choice, but a biological assignment. People are not just choosing their gender. Studies are pointing towards the belief that gender is determined by genes, brain structure and other biological causes.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Society learns new things. What ideas do you object to? Homosexuality? Interracial marriage? Equal rights for women?

Nope, no problems here. Also have no problem with a male who thinks he's a female, or thinks he should have been. I just don't agree that believing it makes it so.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think that comment is incredibly hurtful. Why do you get to be the person who defines someone else's gender? Why can't they define it for themselves?

I think nature defines it for you.