Safely returning to sailing: "Healthy Sail Panel" recommendations

[_auroraborealis_]

You are not exactly what I would call the "average" American citizen when it comes to organization.

Maybe the "average" American citizen is gonna have to learn if they want to be able to move across borders.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Maybe the "average" American citizen is gonna have to learn if they want to be able to move across borders.

hahahahahahahaha... Oh wait... you're serious.

Okay... so.... we have a yellow book. The person's house burns down due to a major fire (like in California). They can order a new license, passport, etc. Insurance can replace most of the stuff in the house. However, you are going to just tell them... what? They can't ever leave the country again because of the accident? Kind of a reverse exile? Too bad. You're stuck. No more vacations for you - ever. Because we as a country are not capable of making a universal healthcare tracking system that is better than the one we used in 1970?

 

[_auroraborealis_]

hahahahahahahaha... Oh wait... you're serious.

Okay... so.... we have a yellow book. The person's house burns down due to a major fire (like in California). They can order a new license, passport, etc. Insurance can replace most of the stuff in the house. However, you are going to just tell them... what? They can't ever leave the country again because of the accident? Kind of a reverse exile? Too bad. You're stuck. No more vacations for you - ever. Because we as a country are not capable of making a universal healthcare tracking system that is better than the one we used in 1970?

Actually, yes. That may be what they're told. Or they can do a vaccination series again easily enough to redocument having them. You don't necessarily need a 30 year history, you need to prove that your shots are current.

Other countries will call the shots here and tell an American that they cannot come in without certain documentation. And in the wake of this pandemic, they are already closing their borders to Americans; putting conditions on opening them up should be expected.

So, the "average American" can choose to either document, or stay in the United States.

 

[TestingH2O]

Because we as a country are not capable of making a universal healthcare tracking system that is better than the one we used in 1970?

Doing that would mean that all those companies would lose their proprietary licensing deals with different hospital systems. Lobbyists will never allow that to happen.

We are one again touching on the fact that Americans need to find ways to work within conventions the rest of the world has adopted (masking, distancing, science...) before they are allowed out again.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Actually, yes. That may be what they're told. Or they can do a vaccination series again easily enough to redocument having them. You don't necessarily need a 30 year history, you need to prove that your shots are current.

Other countries will call the shots here and tell an American that they cannot come in without certain documentation. And in the wake of this pandemic, they are already closing their borders to Americans; putting conditions on opening them up should be expected.

So, the "average American" can choose to either document, or stay in the United States.

But again - even if I agreed with you, there is no system for this. There is not a yellow book. If I brought my own yellow book and asked my Dr to put the information into it, they would not know what to do. If I then took this and handed it to DCL, they would stare at me like I grew a second head. If all of that happened - what is to stop someone from printing a sticker at home and applying it to the book (they are surprisingly easy to make). There MUST be a national database that a cruise line can use to verify the information, or it's still no better than a piece of paper that you sign that has a bunch of check boxes saying you do not have a cough (as you are coughing all over it).

In other words, what you are saying is not actually solving anything until you have a national registry.

And as much as we can sit here and make up paper trail systems and say all Americans must comply - although that may work during the heat of the pandemic, we all know that those restrictions will drop very quickly as countries want American tourism money.

I still hold that the only viable long term solution is a national database which is built into the APIS messaging system. A message that goes out from the cruise line, airline, or other travel carrier to the country they are entering which includes the current APIS information (to confirm they are not a terrorist) and specific health information within the HIPAA guidelines. Without that, this is all just superficial.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Doing that would mean that all those companies would lose their proprietary licensing deals with different hospital systems. Lobbyists will never allow that to happen.

We are one again touching on the fact that Americans need to find ways to work within conventions the rest of the world has adopted (masking, distancing, science...) before they are allowed out again.

You are correct that the lobbyists would not allow that to happen. But I do not think the long term solution is Americans wearing masks. That just answers one issue - the current pandemic. Ultimately the United States of America needs to find ways to work within the conventions of the rest of the world. I.E. the lobbyists are going to have to eventually lose if we are ever going to solve the heart of the problem and not just the latest symptom.

 

[ironz]

Wasn't me. I do not know of a deal breaker that would keep me off the ship. If DCL requires you to wear a banana on your head in order to resume sailing, I'd tell my wife I'm going to the store real quick to buy bananas.

Post #7 of this thread, where you said "deal breakers in red" and the part about wearing masks is red. But maybe you meant in general, and not specific to you. I do know you are ready to get back on a ship!
P.S. Minnie Mouse has a nice banana hat, a la Carmen Miranda.

 

[lanejudy]

Post #7 of this thread, where you said "deal breakers in red" and the part about wearing masks is red.

There are 2 different posters with very similar avatars.

 

[ironz]

Actually, yes. That may be what they're told. Or they can do a vaccination series again easily enough to redocument having them. You don't necessarily need a 30 year history, you need to prove that your shots are current.

Other countries will call the shots here and tell an American that they cannot come in without certain documentation. And in the wake of this pandemic, they are already closing their borders to Americans; putting conditions on opening them up should be expected.

So, the "average American" can choose to either document, or stay in the United States.

Or, for certain vaccines,, you can have antibody titers done, which can show if you have immunity either from having, say measles or mumps, or have gotten the vaccines.
I have a record of *most* of my immunizations, even the card from when I was a kid. I can get records of the more recent vaccinations from my pharmacist, where I have gotten flu and shingles vaccines more recently. My primary care doc knows when my last tetanus booster was.

Though, working in healthcare, I do realize that there are people who do not have *consistent* access to a system (the ER is their primary care); and people who are not interested in keeping up what has happened to them (don't recall if they had their gallbladder out, etc)

 

[ironz]

There are 2 different posters with very similar avatars.

Oh, my goodness, you are right!! @T & R, I am so sorry! I thought you had posted twice early in this thread. My bad!!!

 

[T & R]

Oh, my goodness, you are right!! @T & R, I am so sorry! I thought you had posted twice early in this thread. My bad!!!

No prob, just waiting for DCL to come out with a new CC club level so that I can update my avatar.

 

[lanejudy]

there is no system for this. There is not a yellow book. If I brought my own yellow book and asked my Dr to put the information into it, they would not know what to do

It all depends what is required as documentation to prove vaccination for travel. I can print from my doctor's patient portal pretty much anything including a list of immunizations I've received (in recent history). Same for DD's pediatrician. I'm sure my husband's portal has similar. Whether that will be acceptable proof remains to be seen. To date, I can say it has been accepted for school records and camp registrations for DD. I haven't had to prove my own vaccinations for a long time, though I do still have the paper record my mother passed along to me from my childhood vaccinations. But the records and information is likely there, just someone may need to ask for it or locate it.

The bigger question is what can or might be falsified, and that's not unique to Americans. I wasn't familiar with the yellow book until mentioned on this thread, but it certainly isn't fool-proof. I'm sure there are laws or rules about providing false information... whether those get enforced remains to be seen.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

It all depends what is required as documentation to prove vaccination for travel. I can print from my doctor's patient portal pretty much anything including a list of immunizations I've received (in recent history). Same for DD's pediatrician. I'm sure my husband's portal has similar. Whether that will be acceptable proof remains to be seen. To date, I can say it has been accepted for school records and camp registrations for DD. I haven't had to prove my own vaccinations for a long time, though I do still have the paper record my mother passed along to me from my childhood vaccinations. But the records and information is likely there, just someone may need to ask for it or locate it.

The bigger question is what can or might be falsified, and that's not unique to Americans. I wasn't familiar with the yellow book until mentioned on this thread, but it certainly isn't fool-proof. I'm sure there are laws or rules about providing false information... whether those get enforced remains to be seen.

But that is a good point, too. Your parents were diligent and gave that information to you. I am almost 50. My parents never gave me any records of my vaccinations when I was a child. Further, we moved a lot. I have no idea what city - must less what doctors office - if they even exist anymore - would have any information on what I received when I was a child. I know I got the "standard" package, but I have no idea what that is or was or how to even get that information. Those offices are almost certainly long since gone, anyway.

As for patient portals - my most recent dr can of course tell me anything since she started to see me - about 5 years ago. My Dr before that only transferred some of his records. The one before that kept really bad notes. A lot of my medical history my doctor only knows because I have told her, and she has no way to verify much of it (unless they wanted to do exploratory surgery and try to figure out what's in there and what's not) - much less blood work and other tests.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Though, working in healthcare, I do realize that there are people who do not have *consistent* access to a system (the ER is their primary care); and people who are not interested in keeping up what has happened to them (don't recall if they had their gallbladder out, etc)

The former may not be doing a lot of international travel. The latter... Well, they can either figure it out, or potentially not cross borders.

I think the idea that the rest of the world needs to deal with Americans being unable to get their health act together is shaky. Most of the world is looking pretty askance at the US right now.

 

[ironz]

The former may not be doing a lot of international travel. The latter... Well, they can either figure it out, or potentially not cross borders.

I think the idea that the rest of the world needs to deal with Americans being unable to get their health act together is shaky. Most of the world is looking pretty askance at the US right now.

Yeah, we're doing a terrible job. I'm looking askance at the US from within the borders. We need to collectively get our act together if international travel is to resume to levels anywhere near what it was. (just another edition of "this is why we can't have nice things.")

 

[lanejudy]

Since we are specifically discussing a not-yet-available COVID-19 vaccination, ability to provide medical history from infanthood isn't at question. Documenting vaccinations for cruising in the future shouldn't be based on failures to document the past. There are ways to determine past vaccination or illness if necessary.

Folks who want to claim "Americans can't provide vaccination records" are simply trying to avoid doing so. If vaccination for a specific disease -- in this case COVID-19 -- is necessary to cruise, I'm sure those who wish to board a cruiseship will find a way to provide that proof. There's enough reason for others in the world to think Americans are lazy or weak, this shouldn't be one.

 

[Intr3pid]

The CEOs of the RCL Group and NCL providing their own color on the report:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/09/...ir-plans-to-bring-back-passengers-safely.html
I find it noteworthy that CDC had two observers on this panel's meetings.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Since we are specifically discussing a not-yet-available COVID-19 vaccination, ability to provide medical history from infanthood isn't at question. Documenting vaccinations for cruising in the future shouldn't be based on failures to document the past. There are ways to determine past vaccination or illness if necessary.

Folks who want to claim "Americans can't provide vaccination records" are simply trying to avoid doing so. If vaccination for a specific disease -- in this case COVID-19 -- is necessary to cruise, I'm sure those who wish to board a cruiseship will find a way to provide that proof. There's enough reason for others in the world to think Americans are lazy or weak, this shouldn't be one.

Yeah, so I agree with you largely. The original point though is that there is no current system to securely lookup or verify the validity that someone has been vaccinated against COVID and there is no system being brought online that is up to the task either. The question is what would that proof look like without any national registry or database or even various statewide systems?

How can the operator of the ship going to verify that the person didn't simply lie on their form? OR is there going to be legislature (and if so would it stick) that if one moron lied and the entire ship gets sick as a result, the operator is not at fault? The consequences of a ship-wide outbreak could be very dire.

 

[MomOTwins]

Yeah, so I agree with you largely. The original point though is that there is no current system to securely lookup or verify the validity that someone has been vaccinated against COVID and there is no system being brought online that is up to the task either. The question is what would that proof look like without any national registry or database or even various statewide systems?

How can the operator of the ship going to verify that the person didn't simply lie on their form? OR is there going to be legislature (and if so would it stick) that if one moron lied and the entire ship gets sick as a result, the operator is not at fault? The consequences of a ship-wide outbreak could be very dire.

Welllll if only one moron lies then everyone else on the ship will be fine because they were telling the truth and got vaccinated...
Which is why I think that once a vaccine is available to all, they’ll just require someone to check a box in a form affirming vaccination. Anyone who lies does so at their own risk.

 

[DCLMP]

Since we are specifically discussing a not-yet-available COVID-19 vaccination, ability to provide medical history from infanthood isn't at question. Documenting vaccinations for cruising in the future shouldn't be based on failures to document the past. There are ways to determine past vaccination or illness if necessary.

Folks who want to claim "Americans can't provide vaccination records" are simply trying to avoid doing so. If vaccination for a specific disease -- in this case COVID-19 -- is necessary to cruise, I'm sure those who wish to board a cruiseship will find a way to provide that proof. There's enough reason for others in the world to think Americans are lazy or weak, this shouldn't be one.

What are the other reasons? You do realize some of us might take offense to the lazy and weak comment. I certainly don’t perceive Americans that way.