Safely returning to sailing: "Healthy Sail Panel" recommendations

[TiggerBouncy]

I very much highly doubt that they'll require specific locations for the vaccine, once it becomes widely available (whether its 1 or 2 doses) I am pretty sure they'll have a uniform documentation system set up to either give to the patient or for the gov't records. Once they start dispensing the vaccine I have a feeling that doctors offices might be a central point for vaccinations OR they'll set up community inoculation centers to facilitate the process. I don't see this as something Walgreens or CVS can handle considering the sheer numbers of people that would want to get it done, while still conducting retail business on the same location. I suspect it will be set up in a more organized fashion. But I do wonder about them issuing a "Vaccination Certification" document to each person that gets it. that seems like it might be cumbersome and create a LOT of paperwork.

There are a number of complications with this. Depending on the vaccine that is used. The CDC is absolutely leaving it up to commercial vendors. They have actually listed pharmacies as being a possible source for vaccine distribution.

From the CDC itself:
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/strategy-for-distributing-covid-19-vaccine.pdf"The COVID-19 pandemic has likely accelerated a trend towards different ways of engaging with the healthcare system, and successful delivery of this vaccine will need to incorporate new types of sites and approaches for vaccine delivery. For example, during H1N1, once vaccines became widely available pharmacies played an important role in the vaccine distribution; pharmacies’ role is even more critical to vaccinations today and will be fully integrated into the distribution plan. "

But then there is the other problem, and the reason why Doctors cannot serve as the point of distro (and neither can pharma). For some of the vaccines, storage is required to be maintained below -94f (-20c) . (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/m...estions-about-storage-distribution-2020-08-27) Here is where the fun comes in. That commercial vendor that the CDC is using to plan distribution (McKesson) - Their systems can only cover storage up to -20c, a fair bit short of the required -70c temperatures required (this is in McKesson's contract which is publicly available).

This is also well below what any pharma and doctors offices can accommodate and requires specialized distribution sites (this disproves your first sentence).

Then, at play with all of this is that there simply is not an IT system up to the task of tracking who has received any vaccine. (https://undark.org/2020/09/08/logistics-of-covid-19-vaccine/)
"Still, many public health departments will struggle to adequately track who has been vaccinated and when, because a lack of funding in recent decades has left them in the technological dark ages, said Dr. Marcus Plescia, chief medical officer at the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials. " So just finding out IF you actually had a vaccine and which one will be a challenge - again leaving the cruise lines with no good single point of contact (or any point of contact even) to find out if the paperwork you have is actually valid.

 

[FigmentSpark]

What does a pos or neg result look like after a test? Is it a letter or email? How easily could it be faked? I think there will be some who won't bother to get a test, thinking they don't have it (or don't believe in it or even don't have time, don't want the nasal invasion, etc) and will just download a fake letter off the 'net or even have one printed up on their own. There will also be a few who might test pos, but think they are really neg and they feel fine and don't want to miss/wreck the vacation for the rest of the family or don't want to lose the cruise cost who will also fake the result.

Unless the result is something that is sent directly to the cruise, not via the passenger or even the TA, there is a risk of fake results being reported.

 

[MomOTwins]

What does a pos or neg result look like after a test? Is it a letter or email? How easily could it be faked? I think there will be some who won't bother to get a test, thinking they don't have it (or don't believe in it or even don't have time, don't want the nasal invasion, etc) and will just download a fake letter off the 'net or even have one printed up on their own. There will also be a few who might test pos, but think they are really neg and they feel fine and don't want to miss/wreck the vacation for the rest of the family or don't want to lose the cruise cost who will also fake the result.

Unless the result is something that is sent directly to the cruise, not via the passenger or even the TA, there is a risk of fake results being reported.

For my husband and I, the tests results were on a web portal for the lab that was processing the tests. Come to think of it, even if I took a screenshot of the results, it wouldn't show my name anywhere on the web page, or the date of the test for that matter. Once I was logged in, I clicked test results and it displayed the result but it is just a one word "positive" or "negative." So I anticipate a lot of confusion at port about what can and can't be accepted as proof of a negative tests. Add in international travelers with results in different languages and I can see a lot of blow-up arguments between guests and CMs at the port trying to verify results.

Either that or (more likely) the cruise lines will just be pretty lax about what to accept as proof--maybe they will just do a bogus form you fill out affirming you tested negative, like their previous health questionnaire--and so, like you say, the cheaters will just sneak by.

 

[disneygeek401]

What does a pos or neg result look like after a test? Is it a letter or email? How easily could it be faked? I think there will be some who won't bother to get a test, thinking they don't have it (or don't believe in it or even don't have time, don't want the nasal invasion, etc) and will just download a fake letter off the 'net or even have one printed up on their own. There will also be a few who might test pos, but think they are really neg and they feel fine and don't want to miss/wreck the vacation for the rest of the family or don't want to lose the cruise cost who will also fake the result.

Unless the result is something that is sent directly to the cruise, not via the passenger or even the TA, there is a risk of fake results being reported.

I go to Penn State. They did pre arrival testing for 30k students and staff. From what I understand the results were delivered via e-mail.

 

[Dizneefamily+4]

My son is currently at one of the University of Wisconsin campuses in the dorms. They are requiring students living on campus to be tested once every 2 weeks. He had his 1st test last Thursday at 9:30 am. He had his results (negative) by 9:50 am. Apparently the UW system received some sort of grant for rapid testing.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

What does a pos or neg result look like after a test? Is it a letter or email? How easily could it be faked? I think there will be some who won't bother to get a test, thinking they don't have it (or don't believe in it or even don't have time, don't want the nasal invasion, etc) and will just download a fake letter off the 'net or even have one printed up on their own. There will also be a few who might test pos, but think they are really neg and they feel fine and don't want to miss/wreck the vacation for the rest of the family or don't want to lose the cruise cost who will also fake the result.

Unless the result is something that is sent directly to the cruise, not via the passenger or even the TA, there is a risk of fake results being reported.

This is why I think the Abbot test is particularly important. It could be issued at the terminal and they would have the result before letting you on the ship and it only costs $5.

 

[disneygeek401]

This is why I think the Abbot test is particularly important. It could be issued at the terminal and they would have the result before letting you on the ship and it only costs $5.

Couldn't agree more. This will be one of the main keys IMO to restart cruising (other one being an effective vaccine)

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the Big Ten Conference re-implemented their fall football season, with a shorter, modified schedule. All players are getting tested via rapid test every day starting 9/30. There are 14 teams in the league. I would imagine (and hope) that DCL would be able to effectively test everyone with the rapid tests.

 

[mousefan73]

Scott Gottlieb (one of the co-chairs of the panel that submitted the recommendations) seems to be sparring with CDC in media. Yes, he has a good point (and he writes for CNBC for a living), but he might want to be discrete about it. Unless, of course, his contract with the cruise lines ended yesterday, and now its time to remove the shackles.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/22/thi...fda-chief-says-of-cdc-coronavirus-errors.html

I love watching him.. I watch CNBC almost everyday and he is usually spot on with his Corona updates... especially from a pharma and vaccine view..

 

[mousefan73]

Here is the problem, and it's a lot more complicated than that. In fact, it's a problem with the vaccine as a whole. You do not have to get it from your Doctor. In fact, you may not be able to get it from your doctor as some of the vaccines require specialized conditions to store which most doctor's can not accommodate.

Even worse, there are going to be multiple types, and most of them require 2 doses. So, imagine the general public going to place A to get their first shot, then place B to get their second. Are they going to remember which one they took? Are they going to remember to carry the card that tells them which one they took? How are you going to insure that the person who got type 1 of the vaccine gets the second dose of type 1 without any kind of national database (or at least a state database)?

then, who is the cruise line going to call? I didn't get it from my Doctor. I got my vaccine at Walgreens. Or CVS. Or in the case of specialized storage requirements, I got it at the temporary tractor-trailer outside of Walmart which was operated by some contracting company hired by the CDC.

There is a simple solution that in the US people start using the "yellow book". Here in Germany I learned there is an international immunization passport.. google it.. I have one now and find it great... we all have one and it lists which vacc we get, when and how many more are needed... an overview. They also add sticker label from the dosage put in the book as a record of what serial number you got...

 

[mousefan73]

Oh great. Right in the middle of trying to get a concession from the CDC and you go out and try to publicly humiliate them. They hold all the marbles and hopefully he doesn't put them in a "we'll show you" position. The CDC no cruise order is the largest hurdle for the cruise line's to overcome. Everything else is irrelevant as long as there is a CDC no sail order. You can get deals for ports, bubble excursions, clean the ships, implement safety/Covid protocols, require negative tests but none of it matters if CDC says you can't sail. He's got to play nice unless he knows they've already decided to renew the ban.

Well he does sit on the Board of Pfizer... soo he kinda has the CDC and others in his hands on when the release their trial data... first step to getting an approval.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

There is a simple solution that in the US people start using the "yellow book". Here in Germany I learned there is an international immunization passport.. google it.. I have one now and find it great... we all have one and it lists which vacc we get, when and how many more are needed... an overview. They also add sticker label from the dosage put in the book as a record of what serial number you got...

Sorry.... I am not sure I heard you quite right. Are you suggesting that people here in the US take responsibility for knowing what they had... or even carry around and not lose some piece of identification that might tell them something like that?

Like... you do realize that the US makes a fortune inventing small devices that can track your keys because we can't manage to not lose them for 8 hours at night? And then we have to make an invention to track that device that tracks the keys because we lose THAT. Then we have to tie it all into Alexa so she can make the device that tracks the device that tracks the keys beep because we can't find THAT. OVER AN EIGHT HOUR PERIOD.

And you want us to keep a little booklet for months... no YEARS? hhhhmmmmmmmmm?

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Sorry.... I am not sure I heard you quite right. Are you suggesting that people here in the US take responsibility for knowing what they had... or even carry around and not lose some piece of identification that might tell them something like that?

Like... you do realize that the US makes a fortune inventing small devices that can track your keys because we can't manage to not lose them for 8 hours at night? And then we have to make an invention to track that device that tracks the keys because we lose THAT. Then we have to tie it all into Alexa so she can make the device that tracks the device that tracks the keys beep because we can't find THAT. OVER AN EIGHT HOUR PERIOD.

And you want us to keep a little booklet for months... no YEARS? hhhhmmmmmmmmm?

I still have mine from when I was a kid. As well as one started when I was an adult.

 

[ironz]

Sorry.... I am not sure I heard you quite right. Are you suggesting that people here in the US take responsibility for knowing what they had... or even carry around and not lose some piece of identification that might tell them something like that?
...

And you want us to keep a little booklet for months... no YEARS? hhhhmmmmmmmmm?

You mean, like your travel passport? (I'm guessing your post was a bit sarcastic)

 

[ironz]

I agree and hope people understand that even if they do not agree with the guidelines, without them we will have no cruising for even longer. I would hope there are not people out there that feel we can just go right back to the way things were. If we start back up wrong and get a bunch of people hurt or worse, they will never let cruising get going again and the ban will go on much longer. I rather cruise safe with restrictions than no cruising at all. Baby steps. We have to prove first that cruising can be done safely so that the first few boats don't come back full of sick people and give the "I told you so's" a bunch of ammo for endless ban renewals.

But didn't you say upthread that wearing masks on a cruise would be a deal-breaker?
I think people need to mentally (and physically, if necessary) prepare for masks when cruising returns. As well as other modifications to the cruise experience. Just like going to WDW currently. Having been to WDW recently- it's *not* the same, but I'd rather people comply with restrictions so we can even do any of these things, rather than not having the option at all.

 

[lanejudy]

There is a simple solution that in the US people start using the "yellow book". Here in Germany I learned there is an international immunization passport.. google it.. I have one now and find it great... we all have one and it lists which vacc we get, when and how many more are needed... an overview. They also add sticker label from the dosage put in the book as a record of what serial number you got...

Sorry, nowhere near "simple" considering the US healthcare market. There are lots of various apps or websites that will keep track of immunizations as well as other health information. The problem is that it's dependent on input. Doctors' offices all use different electronic records that often aren't compatible with another. Doctors aren't going to all change to one, nor are they going to manually input details like sticker labels or serial numbers into patients' personal records.

 

[FigmentSpark]

Sorry, nowhere near "simple" considering the US healthcare market. There are lots of various apps or websites that will keep track of immunizations as well as other health information. The problem is that it's dependent on input. Doctors' offices all use different electronic records that often aren't compatible with another. Doctors aren't going to all change to one, nor are they going to manually input details like sticker labels or serial numbers into patients' personal records.

Further to that, I have an old "yellow" book. I have often forgotten to take it with me to the doctor's and then I have to remember to write in what and when the kids got whatever they got. It's probably the worst way to have to keep track of things... at least for me.

 

[T & R]

But didn't you say upthread that wearing masks on a cruise would be a deal-breaker?

Wasn't me. I do not know of a deal breaker that would keep me off the ship. If DCL requires you to wear a banana on your head in order to resume sailing, I'd tell my wife I'm going to the store real quick to buy bananas.

 

[tidefan]

My son is currently at one of the University of Wisconsin campuses in the dorms. They are requiring students living on campus to be tested once every 2 weeks. He had his 1st test last Thursday at 9:30 am. He had his results (negative) by 9:50 am. Apparently the UW system received some sort of grant for rapid testing.

The University of Alabama is doing the same thing, though after the initial testing it's 5% of campus (Students/Faculty/Staff) each week. I've already been swabbed twice (negative, thankfully...).

 

[hrhdhd]

Wasn't me. I do not know of a deal breaker that would keep me off the ship. If DCL requires you to wear a banana on your head in order to resume sailing, I'd tell my wife I'm going to the store real quick to buy bananas.

My fisherman husband would tell you that bananas are bad luck on a boat.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Further to that, I have an old "yellow" book. I have often forgotten to take it with me to the doctor's and then I have to remember to write in what and when the kids got whatever they got. It's probably the worst way to have to keep track of things... at least for me.

My sarcastic reply aside, this is actually more what I was eluding too. For example, when I buy something at Disney, I get a little green "claim" ticket. If you read it, it says you must present it at your resort gift shop to claim your merchandise. Yeah..... Those pretty much get dumped in my hotel room. I never bring them to the gift shop. If they were to ask for them, I would have to trek back to the room and it might take me hours to find. Now make that a Dr's office. Not just me, but I promise you that a goodly number of Americans would leave their "yellow" book at home. Or in the safe. Or in the car. Or the other parent would have it. Or they got divorced, and the ex has it. Or, or, or.....

You mean, like your travel passport? (I'm guessing your post was a bit sarcastic)

As I said, sarcasm aside - passports get lost. You can replace your passport. What happens if you lose your yellow book? can they recreate all the data that is stored in it? No database here in the US can.

I still have mine from when I was a kid. As well as one started when I was an adult.

You know how much I love you Shmoo.... But you can find specific pictures of a dinner you had at Palo on a ship 6 years ago. You are not exactly what I would call the "average" American citizen when it comes to organization.