Latest Arguments in DAS Lawsuit

[arminnie]

First of all let me say that I realize that no two people with autism are the same at all. I've watched 4 such children grow up - all were approximately at the same level at 4-5 years old - but I know that it is not indicative of what their capabilities will eventually be. Three of these children are now in their mid 30s - one is barely 20.

But one child that I have known since she was 4 years old is now in her 30s. Her parents are very wealthy and live in a Caribbean country where they are very powerful. They have NEVER disciplined her and have let her do whatever she wanted forever. It's really sad. She is truly feral. Recently on a flight (first class of course) to the US she started beating on her mother - who made excuses for her.

It is so sad - no she would never have become neurotypical - but I do think she would have had a happier life if she'd learned to deal with limitations earlier in life - even if that caused meltdowns on occasion. I've seen her wander up and totally disrupt a wedding while her parents did nothing.

None of these children are suddenly immune to meltdowns. But having some coping skills even if it just sometimes helps them live better lives. There are people on this board who are autistic and deal with meltdowns - but having coping skills and the ability to recognize what might set them off (NOT their fault) helps them to live a better life.

We all live with limitations - no one is perfect physically or mentally. All we can do it to try to deal with what we have been dealt with in life.

 

[gap2368]

Disclaimer: I hold a DAS pass for WDW, and get the similar pass for Universal Florida. I have never held the previous GAC pass. I do not use a wheelchair or ECV. My pass is for physical and mental restrictions. I live locally so I do not have to pack everything into a limited time vacation.

I *wish* I could travel the parks like a ‘normal’ person. I wish I didn’t need the accommodations. I wish I could use my 3 fp’s spread out over the morning, then start grabbing a 4th, etc., and standby for whatever else I wanted. Or buy the Express pass at Universal. Or the Max Pass (?) at DL/CA and tour like that.
But I can’t. I physically and mentally cannot stand and wait in standby lines. I can’t do the stretching room in the Haunted Mansion.
My times between FP/DAS isn’t spent getting a mickey bar or shopping, it’s avoiding crowds or in a bathroom. I’m waiting the 3+ hours you are for 7DMT, or the standby time for any other ride, I’m just doing it in a way that doesn’t mean I’m restarting over and over and over again.
I would give almost anything to not have to be this way. So please, think a minute before you start claiming people with a DAS are living it up while you are in a standby line. Those who really need it are not.
Thanks.

I so agree with this people that need a DAS are not getting more done but I know for me I get less done, I had a return time for SDD for opening weekend well my time was 3 pm ( or close to that time) and it was well after 8 pm by the time I could go because the FP line was over an hour for most of that time I would do anything not to need the DAS I would do anything to do the standby line for 7DMT and a few other ones but I can not and I will not put other around me thought my meltdowns

 

[Smittolis]

This is a very interesting thread with lots of excellent perspectives given by many different people. I love the fact that this conversation can take place with an element of civility. No one can learn about something they are not 100% aware of without meaningful discourse. Being able to speak to people who experience the things being discussed puts a very real human face to proceedings and goes a long way to add a very meaningful element of context.

I see these issues through many lenses, all based upon my education, my own personal experience, and through the eyes of others. Disney for the most part does a phenomenal job of accommodating guests with special needs. I don't for one second feel it is perfect, but it is probably the single most place that goes so far above and beyond. The problem here is that 'above and beyond' is purely subjective and based upon my own experiences and expectations. So i can see why perhaps there is an element of variability to this across the board. I have 2 Special needs children, I started my career as a special Needs Development Teacher / specialist before migrating into the Academic Cognitive Research area. So my exposure to all things 'different' is perhaps more than most, albeit still only a small portion of what others experience.

As a parent I don't allow my own children to use any of their specific issues or diagnoses as an excuse or crutch, that said, I also don't let them use their gender or any other denomination as an excuse for poor choices or behavior. That doesn't mean I crack the whip at every opportunity and treat my house like a military camp, however, it does mean that there needs to be an element of balance when it comes to the individuals. You cannot treat all people the same and expect it to be universally approved. Different needs 'need' different things, and this is where I feel that Disney does a great job without delving into the nuances of official diagnoses or intimate medical data. Tailoring the experience to the guests needs is possible to some degree, but making it 'perfect' just isn't plausible nor viable. The vast majority of parents, family's and friends would also suggest that they are not wanting it to be 'perfect' they just want a little 'assistance' in making the most of their trip.

I think what happens all too often is there are people on either end of the continuum that taint the view of the vast majority that lay in between. For example, you are going to get people at one end stating that they expect Disney to do everything they can, they are 'owed' that experience because they are 'disabled'.... but then there are people at the opposite end who feel that people with DAS cards get an unfair 'advantage' that they are not afforded and as such feel it is an injustice. Both of these ends are the vast minuscule minorities, yet they end up (as seen sporadically in this thread) polarizing viewpoints and having those projected onto others. That isn't a criticism nor a whine, its merely just attempting to highlight the human element in this rather complex equation.

As above, the OP is obviously on the former end of the continuum and anytime you have an extreme at one end, it brings about a natural reaction from the polar opposite. This only serves to hurt the vast majority of DAS recipients who are in the middle. Interestingly, a lot of the examples being given are obviously well intended, but the variable in most of them has nothing to do with a disability, it is merely bad parenting. The reason lots of the people illustrated in those examples behave poorly could just as easily be typical children as opposed to ASD and the like. The variable in the story isn't a disability at all, although I am sure the use of that as a 'label' is what is being implied through those illustrations.

All in all Disney does a great job accommodating guests with specific and varied needs. I have never once felt out of place or that we were being given punitive treatment for having differing needs to others. While I am certain there are people that will take advantage of such guest accommodations, there are many guests who take liberties via other means and for a plethora of reasons that does not involve the DAS. There is a thread here on the forum somewhere discussing how to circumvent the number of allowed guests in a room. This doesn't mean that every DIS forum member is the same though ;o)

Have a wonderful time, take the accommodations you need to make your experience memorable, don't worry about what others may or may not think, control the contollables and make memories that will last a lifetime. If other people are so focussed on an external level while at the epicenter of family bonding, it speaks more about their own self esteem and happiness that it does your own. Live the dream ;o)

 

[lovewdwfun]

It bewilders me that anyone would sue over this. We use the DAS card for my son with Down syndrome. I don’t recall ever using the GAC to compare it to, but the DAS is a phenomenal benefit. Between FP+, Planning, and DAS, we never waiting in line more than 20 minutes during the 4th of July week. It’s a great thing for Disney to do and honestly, judging by the amount of kids with disabilities we see at Disney, it makes sense for them financially. We are spending $20K this year on Disney because that is the only place we can go and relax with my son.

That being said, it really irks me when people share stories of kids with disabilities and use that to judge other parents and kids. If you aren’t a parent of a kid with a disability, you don’t get it. Even if you are, every child is VERY different. While it’s lovely for you that you observed someone with a kid with autism whose discipline methods worked, they just won’t work on some kids. It’s disturbing to me that a thread of accessibility for disabled kids turns into people judging parents of kids with disabilities. If you aren’t even a parent to a kid with a disability, please don’t start talking about how parents should react to their kids. If you ARE a parent to a kid with a disability, please recognize that every child is very different. Just because you can get your child to understand something or behave it a certain way doesn’t mean it is because of your parenting skills or because other parents don’t know how to raise their kids.

 

[Lilsia]

It bewilders me that anyone would sue over this. We use the DAS card for my son with Down syndrome. I don’t recall ever using the GAC to compare it to, but the DAS is a phenomenal benefit. Between FP+, Planning, and DAS, we never waiting in line more than 20 minutes during the 4th of July week. It’s a great thing for Disney to do and honestly, judging by the amount of kids with disabilities we see at Disney, it makes sense for them financially. We are spending $20K this year on Disney because that is the only place we can go and relax with my son.

That being said, it really irks me when people share stories of kids with disabilities and use that to judge other parents and kids. If you aren’t a parent of a kid with a disability, you don’t get it. Even if you are, every child is VERY different. While it’s lovely for you that you observed someone with a kid with autism whose discipline methods worked, they just won’t work on some kids. It’s disturbing to me that a thread of accessibility for disabled kids turns into people judging parents of kids with disabilities. If you aren’t even a parent to a kid with a disability, please don’t start talking about how parents should react to their kids. If you ARE a parent to a kid with a disability, please recognize that every child is very different. Just because you can get your child to understand something or behave it a certain way doesn’t mean it is because of your parenting skills or because other parents don’t know how to raise their kids.

I agree with what you are saying, however in the case of the woman suing Disney, her son is full grown and gets violent and will hit others including children. This woman has stated this numerous times. This is not something that should be tolerated and if he is unable to learn self control and the parents can not keep him isolated enough so that he is incapable of harming others, then they have business being around little kids.

 

[Mrsjvb]

I agree with what you are saying, however in the case of the woman suing Disney, her son is full grown and gets violent and will hit others including children. This woman has stated this numerous times. This is not something that should be tolerated and if he is unable to learn self control and the parents can not keep him isolated enough so that he is incapable of harming others, then they have business being around little kids.

my SiL and BiL made the decision to put their son into a home before he was 18 precisely because he was non verbal, got violent( he put each of them in the hospital more than once during tantrums) and they were afraid that he would hurt his siblings or his grandparents. Disney was NEVER even a remote option to consider taking him to under any circumstances. this 'mother' is just being selfish and blind to the realities of her circumstances.

 

[Lilsia]

my SiL and BiL made the decision to put their son into a home before he was 18 precisely because he was non verbal, got violent( he put each of them in the hospital more than once during tantrums) and they were afraid that he would hurt his siblings or his grandparents. Disney was NEVER even a remote option to consider taking him to under any circumstances. this 'mother' is just being selfish and blind to the realities of her circumstances.

I am sorry to hear that about your nephew. I can't imagine being in their shoes. We have been fortunate that my niece has improved greatly and does not have violent outbursts. This woman actually used this as her argument in the lawsuit. Stating that her son needed instant front of the line access to rides over and over otherwise he would get violent. I think that is cause enough for Disney to ban them.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

I don't know if it is cause for Disney to ban them, it might be if he actually hurts someone. The legal issue is whether it is a reasonable accommodation to offer shorter or alternate waits to guests with disabilities instead of instant access. That particular plaintiff does not think it is because she claims her son may have violent outbursts that she is unable to control if he is not granted instant access, or is not allowed to experience rides consecutive times without interruption. But Disney's solution doesn't have to be perfect for or apply to everyone, just reasonable. Does her assertion that son can't wait even a few minutes make Disney's accommodations unreasonable as a whole?

Their issue appears to be that Disney offered their children instant access, then removed it because the accomodation was being abused. It's probably tough for them, but the question is whether the new accommodation is still a reasonable one. I am sure the court takes into account Disney's concerns about abuse of the instant access accommodation. On the other hand if the plaintiff's son might hurt someone because he is frustrated about not being able to instantly board It's a Small World, what does she do about instances where the attraction is out of service and no one can board it?

 

[blondietink]

12 years ago when my son was on a Make-A-Wish trip, we didn't even get instant access then. If we were waiting in line for a ride or a character, if a CM saw my son's button, they moved us to the front of the line. At no time do I believe WDW has provided instant access to anybody. If they did, I totally missed it during the GAC period and at that time we went to the parks several times per year for about 5 years.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

According to the lawsuit, immediate entry was granted, at least to the fastpass lines, although one plaintiff did indicate their child wasn't even capable of waiting in the fastpass lines. And at least one plaintiff wanted continuous access to a certain attraction, meaning they claimed their child needed to ride multiple times without waiting in between, and it was something they had been permitted to do before.

not sure how being moved to the front of the line isn't instant access. That's pretty much what it means and it's what these plaintiffs want.

 

[DisneyAuntie12]

I feel for the parents who got stuck in the transition on this one, even if it sounds like the system was untenable in the long run. I've worked with severely impacted autistic students for a long time and I've seen that even ideal environments - all day every day behaviorally based schools with a greater than 1:1 teacher student ratio, almost total consistency of expectations, etc. - can't necessarily change any and every behavior. For parents in that situation, they may have opted never to try Disney in the first place under the current system, but if their child became accustomed to riding It's A Small World or another ride over and over again as part of a ritual, explaining that they could no longer do this might mean that, realistically, they couldn't visit the park again, because once that ritual was set it can't necessarily be un-set, especially for something that is an occasional trip and not part of a daily routine. There wouldn't be a lot of chances to work on it and the few chances you would get would be extremely high pressure - in the middle of a theme park, lots of people around, etc.

 

[Nikciburd]

I feel for the parents who got stuck in the transition on this one, even if it sounds like the system was untenable in the long run. I've worked with severely impacted autistic students for a long time and I've seen that even ideal environments - all day every day behaviorally based schools with a greater than 1:1 teacher student ratio, almost total consistency of expectations, etc. - can't necessarily change any and every behavior. For parents in that situation, they may have opted never to try Disney in the first place under the current system, but if their child became accustomed to riding It's A Small World or another ride over and over again as part of a ritual, explaining that they could no longer do this might mean that, realistically, they couldn't visit the park again, because once that ritual was set it can't necessarily be un-set, especially for something that is an occasional trip and not part of a daily routine. There wouldn't be a lot of chances to work on it and the few chances you would get would be extremely high pressure - in the middle of a theme park, lots of people around, etc.

Thank you! As pp pointed out, this (I.e my neighbor’s kid got mainstreamed after 3 years because his parents worked really hard and didn’t indulge him or give him gluten or some such thing) pet peeve that I see online. It makes it seem that any child who doesn’t fit into that mold has negligent parents. It’s just annoying because it seems to happen all the time.

 

[Grumpy6264]

Our daughter has a heart defect and we have use both the GAC and DAS systems. Her issue is that with her heart condition, standing or sitting in the heat is a huge drain on her. Being able to walk around helps her regulate her temperature better. It is counter-intuitive, but that is how it is.

When she had a GAC, our expectation wasn't that it would be a fastpass for every ride. However, that is how the cast members treated it. If they would have been able to give her an accomodation that would help alleviate the standing/sitting in the heat issue, that would have been terrific. As it was, giving a person (and family by association) an unlimited fastpass wasn't fair to others at the park, but that is how Disney treated it.

I am glad that they went to the DAS system. It fits her issues much better. We can get a return time, walk around, get a drink/food or ride a ride with a shorter line. This helps her with the heat issues, but doesn't allow us to just walk onto all the most popular rides with no wait. Much more fair. Is it perfect? No, but it is better than before.

 

[Mrsjvb]

When she had a GAC, our expectation wasn't that it would be a fastpass for every ride. However, that is how the cast members treated it. If they would have been able to give her an accomodation that would help alleviate the standing/sitting in the heat issue, that would have been terrific. As it was, giving a person (and family by association) an unlimited fastpass wasn't fair to others at the park, but that is how Disney treated it.

I think what happened is that it slowly evolved that way. I don't think it was ever intended to be a de facto Fast pass access. probably due to people like the Plaintiff in the lawsuit who probably bullied the CM into granting immediate access and fully used to her advantage any melt downs. the CM was sort of forced into letting them have their way, rather than pull the Security card and cause even more disruption to the entrance of X ride

 

[Grumpy6264]

That is what I felt also. I personally am happy that they went to the DAS system, it still makes accomodations, but in a much more reasonable fashion.

Hopefully, lawsuits like this don't cause WDW to rethink how they provide accomodations.

 

[DisneyAuntie12]

Thank you! As pp pointed out, this (I.e my neighbor’s kid got mainstreamed after 3 years because his parents worked really hard and didn’t indulge him or give him gluten or some such thing) pet peeve that I see online. It makes it seem that any child who doesn’t fit into that mold has negligent parents. It’s just annoying because it seems to happen all the time.

I don't want to get too off topic here, but I do want to say, I know it can be a rough road, and there's often so much guilt already, even before you get to feeling judged by others. I experience that just via my work (if an incident happens and someone gets hurt, I'm always thinking "What did I do wrong, how could I have reacted faster, better, seen it coming, I wonder if they shouldn't have eaten that one thing at snack, are they sick do they have a fever we didn't catch, why didn't I...") so I can't imagine what it must be like for parents - maybe not all, everyone is different, but some parents anyways. I do meditation now in an attempt to let go of some of that - so, fwiw, just remember that you can only do what you can do and after that, there's nothing wrong with letting go of guilt over things you can't control and moving towards acceptance - it's not only ok, it's actually healthy for you and your kiddo. Every child is different and they will inevitably make progress differently.

 

[pixarmom]

Our youngest son is on the autism spectrum and we so appreciate the current DAS system. I know it's different for each person, but for him, it's a great balance between accommodation (getting the return times) and teaching important skills (still need to wait - just elsewhere.) On a couple occasions each trip, a CM offered us immediate access rather than a return time and that actually upsets him. It has entirely confused the poor CMs who thought they were doing something nice.

 

[Maggie'sMom]

On a couple occasions each trip, a CM offered us immediate access rather than a return time and that actually upsets him. It has entirely confused the poor CMs who thought they were doing something nice.

We ran into this on our last trip. There were a couple times the handheld scanners weren't working properly and the CMs handed us a paper re-entry pass and waved us through. DD had some difficulty grasping what they were doing was a favor and thought we were doing something wrong. Luckily, a couple minutes to the side explaining why it was happening this way and she caught on.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

I have worked with Autistic children. Yes, some, when they want something, they want it now. So this brings me to my question. If the woman's son cannot wait for the attraction, how does he wait to get to the attraction? There are no front of the lines for the parking/bus to the MK, then you wait for the Ferry or Monorail if you came by car, then you wait in a line to enter the park
There are no instant access points. The children I worked with, when they wanted centers, they wanted then not later. They weren't going to sit for breakfast and circle time before having centers. They had their meltdowns because they couldn't have centers. Does this woman's son have meltdowns prior to arriving in front of the attraction? Do you see the point I am making? If so, he can hurt someone before his instant access too. He cannot wait in any capacity for the attraction. If it's the sight of the attraction, they can easily go to Guest Services and have them issue the DAS return time, then keep the son away from the attraction until return time.
Disney's DAS is not violating his rights. It's different for mom and mom cannot accept the change.

 

[DisneyAuntie12]

I have worked with Autistic children. Yes, some, when they want something, they want it now. So this brings me to my question. If the woman's son cannot wait for the attraction, how does he wait to get to the attraction? There are no front of the lines for the parking/bus to the MK, then you wait for the Ferry or Monorail if you came by car, then you wait in a line to enter the park
There are no instant access points. The children I worked with, when they wanted centers, they wanted then not later. They weren't going to sit for breakfast and circle time before having centers. They had their meltdowns because they couldn't have centers. Does this woman's son have meltdowns prior to arriving in front of the attraction? Do you see the point I am making? If so, he can hurt someone before his instant access too. He cannot wait in any capacity for the attraction. If it's the sight of the attraction, they can easily go to Guest Services and have them issue the DAS return time, then keep the son away from the attraction until return time.
Disney's DAS is not violating his rights. It's different for mom and mom cannot accept the change.

Again, hope I'm not getting too off topic here, but since you asked the question and I feel like I might be able to help answer - some kids with autism can have significant issues with rigidity and / or OCD. So as I mentioned upthread, it may be the 'transition' families who are the worst off here, because once the idea that he was going to ride a particular ride over and over with no wait became a ritual then that can be - yikes. For example, I've worked in situations where kids were used to having unrestricted access to swings while on break, and then after an occupational therapy eval, the OT concluded that this was overstimulating, so access should be on a schedule or limited. That can cause huge meltdowns and take weeks to work on, and that's with full support staff. It's not that they couldn't wait for the swings at all - they could - it's just that they expected to have free access to them during breaks. In my personal experience some of the most severe and potentially dangerous behaviors I have come across involve interrupting a ritualistic or rigid behavior, so I think that can be a very big deal.


I do question whether or not it was a good idea to bring a child with that level of difficulty regulating to Disney in the first place, if that is the case. I mean, in those cases, even if he was ok when engaged in the ritual, the family was still likely skating on pretty thin ice in hoping that something else didn't go wrong or set off his OCD or rigid behaviors. But, if they felt they were able to manage and then everything changed, I can see how that could be the difference between them being able to attend the park or not. (That's assuming all the arguments in that case are in good faith. I realize that people do try to 'game the system' or just go after settlement money, and I'm not familiar with this case - but I do think it's at least possible that this child kind of slipped through the cracks in the change between systems.)