Latest Arguments in DAS Lawsuit

[Mrsjvb]

if I recall correctly, aren't the people who initiated this lawsuit really after one thing: the ability to loop/ride attractions continuously? the GAC evolved into Fast Pass accessibility without having to acquire one in the usual way or abide by the built in restrictions. .

which was the entire reason the system was changed as it was patently unfair to be able to cram 2 and 3 times as many rides in the same time frame as people without a GAC or even FP. as it is the new DAS still offers the opportunity for better access as you can have both a DAS and a FP time together. PLUS the ability to accomplish a tangible perk such as eating a meal, hitting the loo or seeing a show or riding a ride that has a very short wait.

three people show up to Ride X.

person 1: no DAS or FP. they get in line, which is a 2 hour wait. for those two hours they get to stand in line doing nothing else.

Person 2: has a FP; which has a stated wait time of oh, say 30 minutes. after 30 minutes they ride and then can go off to the next ride, which has a standby wait of 30 minutes, after which they grab a Mickey Bar.( standing in line for 30 minutes cuz its bloody hot out and everyone wants a Mickey bar)

Person 3: DAS. they get a return time. for the next 1 hour 45 minutes, they grab a Mickey Bar( same 30 minute wait as the other guy) walk on to Ride A with no wait. Ride B is a 10 minute wait so they go ahead and grab that while they are in the area. and oh, look, their Fast pass for Ride C is now valid so they get in that liner and wait 5 minutes. they even have time to visit the potty.

so who has the better 2 hours?

you would think that once you have a DAS return time you STAY IN THE AREA so as to avoid any needless running hither and yon. there is always a ride nearby that doesn't have as long a wait. or shopping, or a quick bite to eat( me personally I am all about the Dole Whips and the caramel apples) or just plain sitting on the curb watching the parade. or the strolling entertainment. even with the new restrictions on who qualifies for a DAS, those people still have a very high potential of having BETTER access than Joe Schmoe and his family .

Trust me I would much rather spend 2 hours doing something else instead of creeping along a rat maze at 12 inches a minute. no matter how entertaining the line is.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Everyone is impacted a little differently and what some are able to do is a real struggle for others.

I'm sure things were a real struggle for Shanti's and WonderlandisReality's respective children. And for themselves.

 

[Lilsia]

My child is autistic and he has learned to cope with frustration without melting down. It has been a long, hard road to help him learn it, but it has happened because we don't indulge him that way. I am completely opposed to people claiming that their child's autism entitles their child to ignore common rules, skip lines, and be completely indulged with repeated ride after ride without any wait. That does not help that child. Period. Behavioral therapists do not approve of that kind of thing.

Children on the spectrum are not a different species from neurotypical children. They can learn to behave and function in the world, just like everyone else. It takes a lot more effort and discipline from everyone involved, including the parents, which is why you often just see indulgence instead of teaching going on. Indulgence is easier, but teaching is better for the child. Temple Grandin would say the same thing.

My niece is autistic and my sister has worked very very hard with her so that she is able to function in society. She has taught her how to deal with her frustrations and what is and what is not appropriate. My niece has been mainstreamed in school since 2nd grade. She is now going into junior high. They have gone to WDW a couple of times and yes there are some things that bothered her, but she told her mom and they went and found a quiet place for a while.

 

[Lilsia]

The equity of not having to wait in a 2 hour long queue is so much more than having to backtrack to a kiosk, don't you think? I think the above is silly, to say the least.

And who says a person has to backtrack anyway. A person without a DAS would be in line for the ride and stuck there. If a person gets a DAS then they can hang out in that general area. They don't have to go across the park to wait for their return time.

 

[ttintagel]

"That being said, I do think there is a place for some of the GAC stamps, such as for those with low vision to alert cast members they need the front or specific areas at certain shows or.may simply need assistance with a flash light in darker queues without needing to explain everything at every attraction where it.kight be an issue, they could show the card and the cast member could respond with the entire queue is well lit already or here is what I suggest."


"Seriously, visually impaired guests can use their voices."


That may sound sensible on paper, but it doesn't fit with my lived experience as a park guest with impaired vision. When you leave a matter up to the discretion of individual cast members, their individual personalities, prejudices, and psychological makeups become a wild card.


When I had the GAC stamp for low vision, no CM ever questioned my need for accommodations such as sitting in a certain section that shows to be able to see the stage.


Before I knew about the GAC or the vision stamp, I would tell the CM my situation and sometimes they would accommodate my need but sometimes they wouldn't.


Some people just have the attitude that if they don't *have* to accommodate you they're not going to. And other people who have no previous experience with a particular disability may have misconceptions about what accommodation you do or don't actually need, no matter how articulately you explain.

No, the old system wasn't perfect and I don't think anyone's saying it was. But it's silly to pretend that the new system doesn't have its own unnecessary flaws and gaps.

 

[Nikciburd]

I’m lucky that I have no experience with the previous disability pass. Therefore, the new accommodation seems great to me. I hope to not have to use it much anyway though I know we will have to use it for Avatar since I was unable to get a FastPass at 60+4. My son is 7 and moderately affected with ASD. His behavior, lately, has been worse than ever. I think he’s developmentally going through his 3 year old button pushing stage at 7. We are doing the best we can to provide structure and consequences but it’s tough because he doesn’t always connect punishment with the antecedent action. His anxiety has also recently kicked in hardcore so that’s a new issue we are dealing with. I think the new system will benefit us greatly when needed, but I too want to treat him like a normal kid as much as possible. HOwever, standing in a 2 hour pandora line would not be feasible any time soon. So, yes, we will take advantage of the DAS pass for situations like this. And I am sincerely grateful to Disney for allowing our family to experience Disney. My older son is 10 and a perfectly behaved child. He deserves the chance to go on trips and do things other kids do that don’t have a younger brother with autism. We also have a 3 year old daughter who is typically developing, but has the typical problems of any 3 year old. So this trip will be an adventure that’s for sure. We are coming back in 5 years or so and hopefully my son will have developed skills necessary to allow us to forego the DAS pass. I just want to live like any other family. I don’t want special privileges. It’d be nice if I could go to the gym without my son getting kicked out of the childcare every day because they don’t have the training to handle his new behaviors. Sigh...thank God summer school starts on Monday.

 

[MinnieMSue]

I’m lucky that I have no experience with the previous disability pass. Therefore, the new accommodation seems great to me. I hope to not have to use it much anyway though I know we will have to use it for Avatar since I was unable to get a FastPass at 60+4. My son is 7 and moderately affected with ASD. His behavior, lately, has been worse than ever. I think he’s developmentally going through his 3 year old button pushing stage at 7. We are doing the best we can to provide structure and consequences but it’s tough because he doesn’t always connect punishment with the antecedent action. His anxiety has also recently kicked in hardcore so that’s a new issue we are dealing with. I think the new system will benefit us greatly when needed, but I too want to treat him like a normal kid as much as possible. HOwever, standing in a 2 hour pandora line would not be feasible any time soon. So, yes, we will take advantage of the DAS pass for situations like this. And I am sincerely grateful to Disney for allowing our family to experience Disney. My older son is 10 and a perfectly behaved child. He deserves the chance to go on trips and do things other kids do that don’t have a younger brother with autism. We also have a 3 year old daughter who is typically developing, but has the typical problems of any 3 year old. So this trip will be an adventure that’s for sure. We are coming back in 5 years or so and hopefully my son will have developed skills necessary to allow us to forego the DAS pass. I just want to live like any other family. I don’t want special privileges. It’d be nice if I could go to the gym without my son getting kicked out of the childcare every day because they don’t have the training to handle his new behaviors. Sigh...thank God summer school starts on Monday.

You aren’t “taking advantage of the DAS”. You are using it how it is supposed to be used. You are using resources necessary for your family to have a great vacation. Enjoy!

 

[MakiraMarlena]

ADA doesn't require an equal experience. it provides reasonable access. It appears the plaintiffs are alleging that the current DAS system is not reasonable access for their children with autism because they are expecting to move from one ride to another without any type of wait due to the dependence on routine - and based on the previous policy they got into the routine of expecting no wait.

I also remember that there was one plaintiff whose child was in the "expectation" that they would be able to ride one attraction (I think it was Small World) over and over and over again without waiting because they'd been allowed to do it previously. So some of them did want to continuously loop rides.

This judge would like to know why it would not be reasonable for the parents to plan what would be the best touring schedule for their children, seeing that the information they would need to plan is available. Of course they wouldn't be able to guarantee things like rides working at the time you want to ride them, but that can't be guaranteed anyway. The court ruled that the new system did have the effect of cutting wait times significantly which apparently is not enough for the plaintiffs, they want no wait at all because they claim their kids are incapable of waiting. Which would probably be the best option for their children, but Disney isn't obligated by law to provide the best option, just a reasonable accommodation.

 

[blondietink]

I am curious as to what these parents do with their children, who apparently cannot wait at all in a line, when they are at the grocery checkout, in a TSA line at the airport (even the handicapped TSA line has a wait), waiting to get on/off an airplane, waiting for the school bus, etc.

I have 2 adult sons with disabilities; one Autism and one Down syndrome. They have learned to wait over the years in all kinds of lines. We didn't take our kids, when they were kid age to Disney World until we had gone to other, smaller theme parks, local festivals, etc. and we were confident that they could handle a place like Disney World. If they had not learned when they were younger, they would have never had the opportunity to go. I would not subject myself or other park goers to their tantrums. But that is just me, trying to be considerate of other people.

 

[Lilsia]

I am curious as to what these parents do with their children, who apparently cannot wait at all in a line, when they are at the grocery checkout, in a TSA line at the airport (even the handicapped TSA line has a wait), waiting to get on/off an airplane, waiting for the school bus, etc.

I have 2 adult sons with disabilities; one Autism and one Down syndrome. They have learned to wait over the years in all kinds of lines. We didn't take our kids, when they were kid age to Disney World until we had gone to other, smaller theme parks, local festivals, etc. and we were confident that they could handle a place like Disney World. If they had not learned when they were younger, they would have never had the opportunity to go. I would not subject myself or other park goers to their tantrums. But that is just me, trying to be considerate of other people.

That is because you are a loving parent that wants what is best for their child. This woman in particular seems to be the type of person that loves the attention and special treatment of having a disabled child more then she loves her child. It is very sad the way she carries on with this. Her poor child is most likely not learning the coping tools that are necessary for any kind of independent living.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

The Disney lawyer has pointed out that the child whose parent said was incapable of waiting, had proved capable of undertaking long distance air and car travel, which involves a lot of waiting. Might not be the same as waiting at Disney World but it is still waiting.

 

[Nikciburd]

I am curious as to what these parents do with their children, who apparently cannot wait at all in a line, when they are at the grocery checkout, in a TSA line at the airport (even the handicapped TSA line has a wait), waiting to get on/off an airplane, waiting for the school bus, etc.

I have 2 adult sons with disabilities; one Autism and one Down syndrome. They have learned to wait over the years in all kinds of lines. We didn't take our kids, when they were kid age to Disney World until we had gone to other, smaller theme parks, local festivals, etc. and we were confident that they could handle a place like Disney World. If they had not learned when they were younger, they would have never had the opportunity to go. I would not subject myself or other park goers to their tantrums. But that is just me, trying to be considerate of other people.

I agree with most of what you say. I think the litigants in the lawsuit are a bunch of whiners and have no sympathy for them as an autistic parent.

However, in terms of your last statement referring to being considerate of others....if I was to keep my home every single time I thought my child may act poorly then I’d never leave the house. Fact is that my child will mature much later than his typical peers and with much more effort. I can’t keep all of us in the house until he’s 100% ready. We waited until this year because we think he’s mostly ready now. The DAS pass will help in a few unique circumstances, but largely his autism will not change our plans much. We already plan on taking a long break at the hotel to recharge and that’s because of the heat. If his behavior goes downhill during the trip then it’s nice to know we have an option to salvage the trip for the other two kids. I really think he will be fine. He did well at the last two amusements parks we visited with no disability accommodations. However, we almost lost him once when he ran off suddenly when he got upset. We are bringing a wrist hand holder this time for that reason. I hope the other people can be considerate of our family and refrain from sending scathing looks at me for using a “leash” on my 7 year old.

That is because you are a loving parent that wants what is best for their child. This woman in particular seems to be the type of person that loves the attention and special treatment of having a disabled child more then she loves her child. It is very sad the way she carries on with this. Her poor child is most likely not learning the coping tools that are necessary for any kind of independent living.

 

[Nikciburd]

That is because you are a loving parent that wants what is best for their child. This woman in particular seems to be the type of person that loves the attention and special treatment of having a disabled child more then she loves her child. It is very sad the way she carries on with this. Her poor child is most likely not learning the coping tools that are necessary for any kind of independent living.

What special treatment do we get as parents of disabled children? I don’t get any that I know of. We aren’t receiving any benefits financially from anyone and no one goes out of their way to extend sympathy to us as a family. Instead, they avoid asking about him at all and pretend he doesn’t exist. We can’t do things other families do all the time without even thinking twice. We get the odd looks as he hops, jumps and makes weird noises.

I’m not saying this to whine though I realize both my posts probably seem like self-indulgent whining. I apologize but I have been feeling rather left out and down this summer. I love my son, but it can be extremely isolating. As a person who hates to stand out, it’s tough to be forced out of your comfort zone daily.

 

[Lilsia]

What special treatment do we get as parents of disabled children? I don’t get any that I know of. We aren’t receiving any benefits financially from anyone and no one goes out of their way to extend sympathy to us as a family. Instead, they avoid asking about him at all and pretend he doesn’t exist. We can’t do things other families do all the time without even thinking twice. We get the odd looks as he hops, jumps and makes weird noises.

I’m not saying this to whine though I realize both my posts probably seem like self-indulgent whining. I apologize but I have been feeling rather left out and down this summer. I love my son, but it can be extremely isolating. As a person who hates to stand out, it’s tough to be forced out of your comfort zone daily.

I was talking about the woman in the law suit. That woman wants to be able to do whatever, whenever she wants to like skip the lines at the rides and the restaurants, that is special treatment. The world must revolve around her and her kid. And has stated numerous times that if her child(who is adult size) does not get what he wants then he will start hitting people around him, including little kids and that she will do nothing to stop him. On a side note, I know there are many states that help families of autistic children financially if needed. The resources are there if you need it, so please do so if you fall into that category.

 

[book_junkie]

Disclaimer: I hold a DAS pass for WDW, and get the similar pass for Universal Florida. I have never held the previous GAC pass. I do not use a wheelchair or ECV. My pass is for physical and mental restrictions. I live locally so I do not have to pack everything into a limited time vacation.

I *wish* I could travel the parks like a ‘normal’ person. I wish I didn’t need the accommodations. I wish I could use my 3 fp’s spread out over the morning, then start grabbing a 4th, etc., and standby for whatever else I wanted. Or buy the Express pass at Universal. Or the Max Pass (?) at DL/CA and tour like that.
But I can’t. I physically and mentally cannot stand and wait in standby lines. I can’t do the stretching room in the Haunted Mansion.
My times between FP/DAS isn’t spent getting a mickey bar or shopping, it’s avoiding crowds or in a bathroom. I’m waiting the 3+ hours you are for 7DMT, or the standby time for any other ride, I’m just doing it in a way that doesn’t mean I’m restarting over and over and over again.
I would give almost anything to not have to be this way. So please, think a minute before you start claiming people with a DAS are living it up while you are in a standby line. Those who really need it are not.
Thanks.

 

[blondietink]

What special treatment do we get as parents of disabled children? I don’t get any that I know of. We aren’t receiving any benefits financially from anyone and no one goes out of their way to extend sympathy to us as a family. Instead, they avoid asking about him at all and pretend he doesn’t exist. We can’t do things other families do all the time without even thinking twice. We get the odd looks as he hops, jumps and makes weird noises.

I’m not saying this to whine though I realize both my posts probably seem like self-indulgent whining. I apologize but I have been feeling rather left out and down this summer. I love my son, but it can be extremely isolating. As a person who hates to stand out, it’s tough to be forced out of your comfort zone daily.

Even though my kids are now adults, I get what you are saying. I still am isolated most of the time and it is vacations that give me the energy to go on. My life consists of getting them out of the house in the mornings and then it is a mad dash for the next 4-5 hours of trying to run errands, do laundry, clean house, do yard work, etc. before they come home. I get tired of planning an outing with the whole family and even look at the calendar to see if it is the week leading up to the full moon (a particularly behavioral time for our house usually) before I can actually plan anything. It would be nice to be spontaneous!

 

[lunasea]

As someone who used both systems at Disneyland (and now luckily has recovered enough to not need them) I never minded the DAS. Yes I have to go to each ride to get my time. But then I found a place to sit away from the crowds and let my body recover from that walk. I was on a cane on my good days and a wheelchair on my bad. So walking was not the easiest thing for me. After so many years needing assistance, Disney was by far the best when it came to such things. Universal is catching up, Knotts and Magic Mountain are *horrible* as are various other amusement parks scattered through the US that we have visited while at various duty stations with my husband.

I *wish* I could travel the parks like a ‘normal’ person. I wish I didn’t need the accommodations.

This was me. People would complain about my "preferential" treatment and I would want to scream and throw things. Being in pain 24/7, unable to do simple physical acts like walk 200 yards on a flat surface, or stand up without assistance were foreign to me. I was the lucky type that years and years of PT got me back to an almost normal standard (still have my bad days and always have a dose of my pain meds with me just in case) but still spent years looking at people walking normally and wishing that was me, remembering that used to be me, and cursing my body for failing me. I cried more than once at the Happiest Place on Earth because I could not do what I used to do and not being able to do some of my favorite rides because I could not get out of them (Matterhorn and Space Mountain being some of the worst). I am sorry you still have to experience it.

 

[Nikciburd]

I was talking about the woman in the law suit. That woman wants to be able to do whatever, whenever she wants to like skip the lines at the rides and the restaurants, that is special treatment. The world must revolve around her and her kid. And has stated numerous times that if her child(who is adult size) does not get what he wants then he will start hitting people around him, including little kids and that she will do nothing to stop him. On a side note, I know there are many states that help families of autistic children financially if needed. The resources are there if you need it, so please do so if you fall into that category.

Wow, that woman sounds like she may need some help herself but that’s just based on what you’ve said and the little I’ve heard about here.

I get that you were talking about her so I’m sorry if I seemed defensive. That’s clearly my own issue (stemming from other’s comments that I’ve read online—-not here—on autistic children posts).

Yeah, my kid is not violent. He’s very happy and good natured most of the time, but he does have an angry streak that comes on very very suddenly. At that point, he has been known to side-arm objects. Only once has it hit anyone (in a restaurant as we were leaving in a rush to get him out of there STAT). We apologized profusely and bought the guy at a bar drink. He laughed it off but we were humiliated. We know know to make sure there are no projectiles in his hand when he starts to rev up even the slightest bit. So I guess my defensiveness stems from my frustration with this newish behavior. We are doing the best we can to raise him right so that he can get along in society while also raising two others. It’s a delicate balance.

Anyway, sorry for the additional rambling. Thanks for the advice, but luckily, finances is not an area of struggle for us. We’re not rich but we are doing fine. So I’m grateful for that.

 

[Nikciburd]

Even though my kids are now adults, I get what you are saying. I still am isolated most of the time and it is vacations that give me the energy to go on. My life consists of getting them out of the house in the mornings and then it is a mad dash for the next 4-5 hours of trying to run errands, do laundry, clean house, do yard work, etc. before they come home. I get tired of planning an outing with the whole family and even look at the calendar to see if it is the week leading up to the full moon (a particularly behavioral time for our house usually) before I can actually plan anything. It would be nice to be spontaneous!

Thank you! And I’m sorry that you’re still struggling This vacation has been so much work to plan, but it’s really given me something else to focus on and to give me hope. I know both my 3 year old and ASD 7 year old are going to have their moments. I am just hoping that I’ve planned enough breaks and managed the trip in such a way that we minimize stress.

We are bringing the in-laws, two strollers, a few leashes and maybe make use of the free dining alcohol (for me of course....I have my own issues with anxiety but only when it comes to looking like a hot mess in front of the world). I’m hoping some Disney magic will keep the kids so entertained and tired that they aren’t going to act out. I’ve heard the exact opposite usually happens with children at Disney but my kids are a bit different in the things that make them act fresh so maybe we’ll be alright. I’m actually most worried about the restaurants.

 

[Nikciburd]

As someone who used both systems at Disneyland (and now luckily has recovered enough to not need them) I never minded the DAS. Yes I have to go to each ride to get my time. But then I either sat and relaxed or checked out the shops/short wait time rides nearby. I'd hit the restroom and get a snack. I would always get on all the rides I wanted to in a day, and planned my day to have the smallest amount of travel I possibly could. I was on a cane on my good days and a wheelchair on my bad. So walking was not the easiest thing for me. But I knew my limits and I also made sure I got plenty of sitting time. After so many years needing assistance, Disney was by far the best when it came to such things. Universal is catching up, Knotts and Magic Mountain are *horrible* as are various other amusement parks scattered through the US that we have visited while at various duty stations with my husband.

Yeah, our local amusement park (small operation) is fairly Ill-equipped to help children with disabilities. Since they don’t have technology (just standby queues) there is no way for them to accommodate disabilities like the larger parks. I’m somewhat glad though because I was still able to take my son last year. He mostly rode the little kid rides that had extremely short lines since he was too short for the bigger rides. So we didn’t get the opportunity to test out longer waits really. We did do the Ferris wheel which he loved and had a mini meltdown when he had to get off but he did better on subsequent rides. He actually meets almost every single height requirement at Disney this year so I’m curious what to expect in terms of his tolerance. I think I’m going to bring him to our local six flags in a few weeks to try him out. They have a disability pass system so I might get that too just because they don’t have free fast passes. Maybe I should splurge for their fast pass system instead to be fair even though I never did in the past.