Electric Cars

[kdonnel]

The average US buyer is not buying luxury SUVs and cars.

The average very profitable to the dealer and manufacturer US buyer is buying luxury SUVs and cars. I think that extreme profit is why the auto makers tend to make the most expensive models first when a factory is ramping up.

Lots of people must be buying expensive cars though.

From the article linked in post #138:
The cost of an EV is, on average, $53,000 — still about 4 percent more expensive than your typical car

I think people want a sub $30,000 car but when presented with a $30,000 car and a $50,000 car they are apparently picking the $50,000 to get the features and comfort they want.

The argument that EVs are too expensive for the average car buyer seems to not be true anymore.

 

[hertamaniac]

As for the argument that EVs are just too expensive for the average buyer....

Average sales price in March 2023 of some popular auto categories:

• Vans: $58,078
• Luxury Full-Size SUVs and Crossovers: $124,250
• Entry-Level Luxury Cars: $110,983

People love their giant luxury cars in the US and are willing to pay for the size.

Everyone keeps saying that auto manufactures need to create a sub $30,000 EV and it will sell but the auto makers resist. They know better what sells and what does not and continue to make $45,000 and up EV.

Maybe the auto makers should instead start making bigger and bigger EV. Stop making the mid size SUV and small sedan.

Make giant Suburban sized beasts.

So an already much heavier EV vs. ICE vehicle gets even more heavy with larger battery packs. I'm confident that the highway and road infrastructure will see the effects. And what about the parking lots where the original design was for X vehicles at an average weight of Y/vehicle.

Add to that the tire degradation due to heavier loads, and the true cost of owning an EV gets muddled further.

“I have more concerns about [Chevrolet] Suburbans that are all-electric than [Chevrolet] Bolts because of the weight,” she said. ” It becomes the composite effect of all that weight over lots of cycles.”

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/07/business/electric-vehicles-weight/index.html

 

[kdonnel]

So an already much heavier EV vs. ICE vehicle gets even more heavy with larger battery packs. I'm confident that the highway and road infrastructure will see the effects. And what about the parking lots where the original design was for X vehicles at an average weight of Y/vehicle.

Add to that the tire degradation due to heavier loads, and the true cost of owning an EV gets muddled further.

“I have more concerns about [Chevrolet] Suburbans that are all-electric than [Chevrolet] Bolts because of the weight,” she said. ” It becomes the composite effect of all that weight over lots of cycles.”

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/07/business/electric-vehicles-weight/index.html

As a people, we don't always do things that make sense, we do things we desire.

My car weights the same as a Ford Explorer but suddenly it is a problem because my car is electric?

How is tire degradation due to heavier loads suddenly a problem with a Mustang Mach e but it was not a consideration with a Ford Explorer?

 

[hertamaniac]

The opinion of the writer reaffirms my believe that we are firmly in the Chasm phase of EV adoption.

The writer clearly indicates the adoption of EVs is directly related to government subsidies.

"Now that subsidies are shrinking or ending altogether, customers are already shunning the vehicles. After Germany abruptly ended its €6,700 subsidy for 2024, EV sales dropped immediately — even after carmakers said they would cover some of those costs. Similar cuts are taking place in France and are likely to happen soon in Norway. In the U.S., the number of cars that qualified for a $7,500 rebate dropped, with Ford’s month-over-month January-sales slide an early warning sign."

I view the article as more objective and not pessimistic by demonstrating potential shortcomings of EV propagation.

 

[hertamaniac]

As a people, we don't always do things that make sense, we do things we desire.

My car weights the same as a Ford Explorer but suddenly it is a problem because my car is electric?

How is tire degradation due to heavier loads suddenly a problem with a Mustang Mach e but it was not a consideration with a Ford Explorer?

I thought you said you wanted more electric Ford Explorers like SUV EV's (Suburban as you stated). Are you saying it will weigh the same as it's ICE equivalent?

There is also the torque variance that can feed into the tire degradation of an EV vs. ICE.

Which tire shoulder will see more horizontal loads for a given corner? An ICE Explorer weighing 4,500 lbs. (guess) or an EV variant at 5,500 lbs. (guess). Sure, the tire spec. will be different, but I think it's fair to say the EV version would be subjected to higher lateral loads.

 

[tony67]

If electric cars are better than why do they have to be mandated and provide incentives from the government?

We already have issues with the electric grid and people want to make almost everything Electric... how is the electricity generated?

What happens when you cant charge you car between certain hours of the day because the gov says so...and you need to.

Also trying to push all heat and stoves to Electric...and again can the grid support it.
How much coal is used to make the electricity?

Yeah some have solar panels and it makes a lot of sense to them get an electric car - but not as your only car - especially if you live in an area with lots of snow.

What about the strip mining to make the batteries?
What about recycling the batteries.

Buying a used one is extremely risky as the batteries are very expensive to replace.

At this point I just don't see it making sense for me - does not mean it wont in the future.

I am open to an electric car - they just don't seem to be ready yet.
I would be much more open to a hybrid since at least you can get gas pretty much anywhere and it takes very little time to fill up.

At one point there was talk of swapping out batteries instead of waiting to recharge, but you would need a standard and it would need to account for bad batteries etc.. maybe why that seemed to have got shelved.
At this point is there even a standard for the chargers?

If you want an electric car great, but making it my only option - no thanks

 

[kdonnel]

I thought you said you wanted more electric Ford Explorers like SUV EV's (Suburban as you stated). Are you saying it will weigh the same as it's ICE equivalent?

There is also the torque variance that can feed into the tire degradation of an EV vs. ICE.

Which tire shoulder will see more horizontal loads for a given corner? An ICE Explorer weighing 4,500 lbs. (guess) or an EV variant at 5,500 lbs. (guess). Sure, the tire spec. will be different, but I think it's fair to say the EV version would be subjected to higher lateral loads.

I am saying that perhaps with America's love of giant cars, the automakers have little incentive to make smaller cheaper EV. They are incentivized by the buying public ot make big giant SUV, ICE or EV.

As for tires, it you drive like a fool your tires were faster, doesn't matter if EV or ICE.

A Ford Explorer weights 4,344 to 4,766 lbs.
A Ford Mustang Mach e weights 4,394 to 4,920 lbs.

There is not a lot of difference there and depending on trim level the EV is lighter than the ICE.

Either tires have been made for decades to support 5,000 lb vehicles or they have been defective for a long time.

America's best selling vehicle has been the Ford F-150 for a long time. 4,275 to 5,757 lbs

 

[kdonnel]

If electric cars are better than why do they have to be mandated and provide incentives from the government?

We already have issues with the electric grid and people want to make almost everything Electric... how is the electricity generated?

What happens when you cant charge you car between certain hours of the day because the gov says so...and you need to.

Also trying to push all heat and stoves to Electric...and again can the grid support it.
How much coal is used to make the electricity?

Yeah some have solar panels and it makes a lot of sense to them get an electric car - but not as your only car - especially if you live in an area with lots of snow.

What about the strip mining to make the batteries?
What about recycling the batteries.

Buying a used one is extremely risky as the batteries are very expensive to replace.

At this point I just don't see it making sense for me - does not mean it wont in the future.

I am open to an electric car - they just don't seem to be ready yet.
I would be much more open to a hybrid since at least you can get gas pretty much anywhere and it takes very little time to fill up.

At one point there was talk of swapping out batteries instead of waiting to recharge, but you would need a standard and it would need to account for bad batteries etc.. maybe why that seemed to have got shelved.
At this point is there even a standard for the chargers?

If you want an electric car great, but making it my only option - no thanks

The electric grid has always adapted to new loads.

At the end of WWII not many American homes had air conditioning. Then there was explosive growth.

The electric grid grew as needed.

The bigger threat to the national electric grid? Crypto and Blockchain computing.

 

[tony67]

The electric grid has always adapted to new loads.

At the end of WWII not many American homes had air conditioning. Then there was explosive growth.

The electric grid grew as needed.

The bigger threat to the national electric grid? Crypto and Blockchain computing.

With far less regulation and rules it grew - its not so easy today to build a new power plant and to expand the grid.

There are still brownouts today due to AC Usage on very warm days.
They still ask us not to do things - like charge a car - during certain hours of the day in the summer.

Alternative Energy sources although promising also are not there.

BTW - Id like to see Electric Cars work out - I've lost a lot of money investing in the companies that build them

 

[hertamaniac]

As for tires, it you drive like a fool your tires were faster, doesn't matter if EV or ICE.

A Ford Explorer weights 4,344 to 4,766 lbs.
A Ford Mustang Mach e weights 4,394 to 4,920 lbs.

There is not a lot of difference there in depending on trim level the EV is lighter than the ICE.

First:

A Ford Explorer has 3rd row seating, 5,600 lbs. towing capacity and much more volume vs. the Ford Mustang Mach E (1,500 lbs. towing). The comparison of weight is not valid to me. Doing a Ford Explorer EV to the ICE is my comparison on weight differentials.

Second:

The point that I made is the torque difference between an EV and ICE relating to tire degradation and the need for a different tire.

"Because of this immediate torque, the tires have to be able to absorb all that torque and harness all that power to accelerate as quickly as the driver intends. This requires tires that can handle the added stresses."

Third:

Tires designed for weight from an ICE vehicle are different than the EV equivalent. The CG and COP are completely different which translates to the traction motors and tires.

"For starters, EVs are heavier because of the added weight of the massive batteries they have on board. This means they need tires that can support the extra weight, and that’s why many EV-specific tires come with an Extra Load (XL) rating. This means they’re designed to carry the extra mass without overheating.

Recently, tire companies have started adding the HL (Heavy Load) designation to some of their tires, and in a recent technical bulletin, Yokohama Tire explained why there’s a need for both XL and HL tires: “The Ford F-150 Lightning (EV) weighs in at around 1,600 lb more than the same size internal combustion (ICE) F-150. A Tesla Model S EV weighs over 1,300 lb more than a similarly sized Toyota Camry (ICE) (4,900 lb vs. 3,600 lb). This trend holds true across the board for EVs.”

https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial...eed-special-tires-or-will-regular-tires-work/

 

[CamillaF]

I still don’t see how older towns with all street parking are going to work for EVs. Where are the people who live there supposed to plug in their cars? They don’t have garages or even driveways. They park on narrow streets in front of their homes.
Are we envisioning car charges along the street like parking meters? Who is going to pay to install them and perform upkeep?

I live in an old neighborhood and many of my neighbors have teslas. They have an extension cord from their house and slow charge over night. They trenched under the sidewalk so the extension cord was not an issue.

 

[kdonnel]

First:

A Ford Explorer has 3rd row seating, 5,600 lbs. towing capacity and much more volume vs. the Ford Mustang Mach E (1,500 lbs. towing). The comparison of weight is not valid to me. Doing a Ford Explorer EV to the ICE is my comparison on weight differentials.

Second:

The point that I made is the torque difference between an EV and ICE relating to tire degradation and the need for a different tire.

"Because of this immediate torque, the tires have to be able to absorb all that torque and harness all that power to accelerate as quickly as the driver intends. This requires tires that can handle the added stresses."

Third:

Tires designed for weight from an ICE vehicle are different than the EV equivalent. The CG and COP are completely different which translates to the traction motors and tires.

"For starters, EVs are heavier because of the added weight of the massive batteries they have on board. This means they need tires that can support the extra weight, and that’s why many EV-specific tires come with an Extra Load (XL) rating. This means they’re designed to carry the extra mass without overheating.

Recently, tire companies have started adding the HL (Heavy Load) designation to some of their tires, and in a recent technical bulletin, Yokohama Tire explained why there’s a need for both XL and HL tires: “The Ford F-150 Lightning (EV) weighs in at around 1,600 lb more than the same size internal combustion (ICE) F-150. A Tesla Model S EV weighs over 1,300 lb more than a similarly sized Toyota Camry (ICE) (4,900 lb vs. 3,600 lb). This trend holds true across the board for EVs.”

https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial...eed-special-tires-or-will-regular-tires-work/

What does the volume of the car have to do with the wear of the tires?

Either a tire is rated to support the weight of the vehicle or it is not.

Tire manufacturers have had no problem making appropriate tires for vehicles that weight 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000, etc.

Any tire with the correct load rating (and size, speed etc) is fine.

As for performance, not everyone is looking to go 0-60 in 3 seconds. I have never understood the fascination with 0-60 times.

 

[tvguy]

https://electrek.co/2024/03/15/rivian-rivn-hyundai-us-ev-registration-growth-january/

https://insideevs.com/news/712685/us-ev-registrations-january2024/



So sales are still healthy and growing, just not growing as fast as years prior.



And it is not just Tesla that continues to grow. Tesla accounts for just over 50% of sales with all the other manufactures making up the rest.



Seems relatively healthy to me with an overall 15% year over year growth in January.

Then why are there so many 2023 Mach E's and few if any 2024s on dealer lots?

 

[hertamaniac]

What does the volume of the car have to do with the wear of the tires?

Either a tire is rated to support the weight of the vehicle or it is not.

Tire manufacturers have had no problem making appropriate tires for vehicles that weight 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000, etc.

Any tire with the correct load rating (and size, speed etc) is fine.

As for performance, not everyone is looking to go 0-60 in 3 seconds. I have never understood the fascination with 0-60 times.

The volume delta is to demonstrate the mis-comparison of the two vehicles hence the weight difference. They are different vehicles, but you opted to provide metrics of how close they are using only weights.

As for the tires, the citations I provided shows the manufacturers recognize a need for EV rated tires.

 

[tvguy]

The volume delta is to demonstrate the mis-comparison of the two vehicles hence the weight difference. They are different vehicles, but you opted to provide metrics of how close they are using only weights.

As for the tires, the citations I provided shows the manufacturers recognize a need for EV rated tires.

My son has a VW ID4 and tires and wonky software are his only complaints. He live in Los Angeles and hit a pothole and blew a tire and it took days for a new one to be shipped directly from the manufacturer of the tire. Nobody, so far, stocks replacements.

 

[tvguy]

Not sure if anyone mentioned Buicks big push to EVs. GM had to buy out HALF the Buick dealers because they did not want to invest the $300-400,000 they would need to sell EVS.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/c...tors said nearly half,to all electric by 2030.

 

[kdonnel]

The volume delta is to demonstrate the mis-comparison of the two vehicles hence the weight difference. They are different vehicles, but you opted to provide metrics of how close they are using only weights.

As for the tires, the citations I provided shows the manufacturers recognize a need for EV rated tires.

The tires have no idea what volume exists in the vehicle above.

Tires should be bought based on load range or load index.

If I go to tirerack.com and try to buy tires for an Explorer or a Mustang Mach e both are going to require a load range of XL solely based on weight of the vehicle. As long as the same size tire exists there is nothing different between the tire put on an Explorer vs a Mach e.

If I shop for a Toyota Corolla I will not need XL nor will I with a Bolt EV because neither is heavy enough to have that requirement.

Tire manufacturers do make special low rolling resistance tires that some manufacturers put on their cars to maximize the EPA efficiency test results.

Otherwise the only thing that makes a tire EV specific is marketing. Not unlike digital tv antennas. There is no such thing but don't tell the marketers.

 

[kdonnel]

Then why are there so many 2023 Mach E's and few if any 2024s on dealer lots?

Because the Mach e lost the tax credit.

Back when I bought mine it qualified for $7500 and was priced as though it was subsidized by $7500.

Then it lost the tax subsidy and until recently was still priced as though it was subsidized.

It has received large price cuts from Ford to actually align the price with the competition that still qualifies for the tax subsidy and as a result sales have improved.

As for if tax subsidy should exist?

I am not an economist so I don't know the ins and outs of tax subsidy but they sure are common and exists in almost every industry.

 

[hertamaniac]

The tires have no idea what volume exists in the vehicle above.

Tires should be bought based on load range or load index.

If I go to tirerack.com and try to buy tires for an Explorer or a Mustang Mach e both are going to require a load range of XL solely based on weight of the vehicle. As long as the same size tire exists there is nothing different between the tire put on an Explorer vs a Mach e.

If I shop for a Toyota Corolla I will not need XL nor will I with a Bolt EV because neither is heavy enough to have that requirement.

Tire manufacturers do make special low rolling resistance tires that some manufacturers put on their cars to maximize the EPA efficiency test results.

Otherwise the only thing that makes a tire EV specific is marketing. Not unlike digital tv antennas. There is no such thing but don't tell the marketers.

Tires should be evaluated on wear and temperature ratings based on tread pattern and compounds, etc.

Using the "it fits" is like saying I'm filling up my vehicle with diesel fuel, when it's designed for unleaded. Both "fit" but the results could be catastrophic.

Sidewall construction and materials may vary greatly between an EV vs a. traditional tire. I wouldn't want to risk a blowout because the non-EV tire just "fits" and is a marketing ploy.

 

[tvguy]

Because the Mach e lost the tax credit.

Back when I bought mine it qualified for $7500 and was priced as though it was subsidized by $7500.

Then it lost the tax subsidy and until recently was still priced as though it was subsidized.

It has received large price cuts from Ford to actually align the price with the competition that still qualifies for the tax subsidy and as a result sales have improved.

As for if tax subsidy should exist?

I am not an economist so I don't know the ins and outs of tax subsidy but they sure are common and exists in almost every industry.

My son narrowed his search to the ID4 and the Mach E. Both still had tax credits at the time. ID4 won because VW dealer was willing to negotiate the price below $40k before tax rebates.