Yuck On The Kid's Menus

[mom2my3kids]

We are also doing lots of buffets so my kids can have a wider range of food. Boma,Liberty Tree, Ohana, Crystal Palace and the other ts I really looked to make sure they had something decent my two youngest will eat. Wolf Gang pucks, 50's prime time, lecellier and mama melrose fantasmic package..

 

[always on vacation]

Katie Bell


I can't imagine anyone who does not agree with this. Just the fact that you have to plan in advance where to take the kids for a burger or a pizza because you probably wont find any at the "burgerland" or "pizzacity" is beyond annoying. You can, however, get pizza for kids at the Moroccan cs; the first place most of us would think of for Pizza

 

[Katiebell]

always on vacation and Family5LovesDisney: I can't believe you read that whole long post. As soon as I hit "submit reply" I looked at it and thought, sheesh, it looks like a long, boring college term paper Glad you both agree, though...

bicker, my friend...I was going to try to answer you point by point, but frankly...my arm won't hold out. I was just released to go back to work half time today after surgery on a nerve in my arm in February. I work on a computer all day, so my arm has about had it -- especially after that last dissertation I typed up there my arm is a bit fatigued.

I certainly get a lot out of our conversations -- if not always "fun", they have usually been enlightening and informative. I respect your opinion and agree with you a great deal of the time. However, it appears there will be some things you and I will just never see eye-to-eye on -- you will take the side of the company, and of business, and feel, as you stated, "customers are fair to suppliers substantially less often than suppliers are fair to customers". Having worked front line customer service and having seen what companies sometimes do to their customers...I will have to respectfully disagree, and I often put my thumb on the customer's side of the scale

I totally agree that a customer should be honest, and have realistic expectations. I am aware that companies also have to answer to shareholders, and must be profitable to stay afloat. However, I also believe that companies seriously benefit in being customer focused -- listening to what the customers want and need, and trying to meet those wants and needs, in the interest of retaining current customers and gaining new customers. And I'm not talking about kowtowing to the customer's every whim (like a kiddie sized filet at a CS ) or letting the customer take advantage of them or cheat them. But it's not an unreasonable expectation that a parent will be able to purchase a child sized burger for their kid at a burger restaurant at an amusement park.

Overall Disney is very customer-focused, and they spend huge sums of money to surprise and delight their guests -- even in little ways that are so subtle that many guests hardly even notice them, like the glow-in-the-dark Tinkerbell wallpaper border at the Disneyland Hotel. Or the trashcans and bathrooms that match each area's "theme". Or the subtle way that New Orleans Jazz segues into old west saloon music as you walk toward Frontierland, or blends into jungle drums if you head toward Adventureland instead. How hard and how expensive would it be to tweak the kids' meals to make the guests happier? And would it ultimately benefit Disney financially? A case could certainly be made for that -- and argued against, I'm sure

Ah, that's it, can't type anymore. But one thing I think we can both agree on -- we both love Disney. Notice my ticker? One month until we leave for WDW!

 

[dawnball]

A couple of choices for a child is fine, at one particular CS. The problem is that if most of the CS are offering the exact same choices, and a family is eating at the parks for a week, or two, those same choices start to get really old. And families are not allowed to bring in food from outside, so unless they leave WDW, they are stuck.

Except that most people don't go to Disney parks for a week or two. They go for 4-5 days. The average length of all Orlando visits is 4.1 nights. For out of state visitors it's 5.1 and for in-state it's around 2.2. Most people visit each park once (or skip some, because they won't have a 4 day trip) and possibly revisit a park a second time on their departure day. And - you can indeed take food into the parks. You can't bring in glass containers or booze - but you can bring in as much food as you would realistically want to.

Carrots and grapes are good -- but not every single day, every single meal.

Yeah, but for lunch - 4 days in a row? It's not bad. Especially since you can sub in fries without any problem. I suspect you could actually sub in most of the "standard" sides actually - so you could get mashed potatoes.

However - I visit Disney for 2 weeks a couple of times a year. I'll tell you - the only sides I can have most places due to dietary restrictions are carrots and grapes. Sometimes for dinner too, if I didn't want to bother with an ADR. Really, they're some of the more appealing things on Disney's menu. I also have the problem of limited entree selection - but it really isn't *that* inconvenient.

In addition, and it doesn't get mentioned often, carrots and grapes are really inappropriate to give to toddlers

Grapes are fine for 3/4 year olds - just quarter or halve them. CS meals typically aren't overall very appropriate for children much younger than 3. I think that it's a relatively small portion of their visitor base who is eating solid food dependably enough to buy them a CS meal, under 3 and not bringing their own food.

As for the register programming and difficulty of choice issues on the desserts, it doesn't have to be that complicated. If they are all the same price, all they need is a button on the register for "kids' dessert". Or just one button for "kids' meal" that includes entree, side, drink, and dessert.

Nope. I have an acquaintance who's husband works on Disney's dining computer systems. It's nowhere near that easy, in part because the system is amazingly antiquated. Since I'm in the process of updating another amazingly antiquated industrial database, you couldn't pay me enough money to work on their systems - not even to work for the Mouse on those systems. And there's no upgrade in sight because it isn't economically viable. Besides which - a single "kid's meal" button doesn't work for theme park setups. The kitchen has to know which kid entree, sides, drink, dessert. Adding a new option can mean painstakingly reshuffling many, many buttons. One painful pixel calculation after another. And then all the cashiers who key things by instinct do it wrong. For weeks. I've been there on both sides of the fence. Switching from grapes to apples is (relatively) easy - you don't have to reprogram the user interface, you just have to reprogram the guts and hope that everything still fits on the printout like it's supposed to. Adding an option (so you have grapes plus apples) is worse.

If they are buying a variety of desserts from the same supplier and they all have the same averaged cost, and they are all the same price for the consumer, then there is no need to inventory exactly what variety is being sold.

Yes there is. Aside from the back needing to know what to put on the tray - there are valid management reasons to track it. How do you know they have the same averaged cost if you don't track them? Averaged cost isn't (x + y + z)/n. It's (x*a +y*b +z*c)/n. And even that is oversimplified. You have to account for individual shrinkage, and how much of that shrinkage is unavoidable vs how much is due to lack of demand, vs how much is bad upselling/crossselling. "Would you like jello with that?" gets a very different reaction than "Would you like jello or vanilla pudding?" for example. And with good inventory tracking you can tell *where* your shrinkage is occurring. You can also forecast how much you need to order in the future, reliably send more product to CS locations when it's needed and generally manage your supply chain much more efficiently.

And I would propose that SF gelatin or pudding should be available at every single CS -- ONE variety, but different at various restaurants -- and it wouldn't be the default, but would have to be requested for a kid's meal, or by an adult who wants a SF dessert.

Gah! NO! NO! It's bad enough now that we chose where we eat based on an amalgam of everyone's dietary needs and entree choices. Tracking halfway across the park because "I want the mac and cheese that comes with CHOCOLATE pudding, not VANILLA pudding, Mommy. Don't you like me??" would drive me to suicide. Or alternatively to refuse to go to WDW with my niece.

I am proposing this because I want to know if Disney could do this for relatively the same cost as only giving one choice that so many families dislike: SF gelatin.

That's easy. No. Pudding costs significantly more than gelatin on the wholesale market. Particularly non-jello gelatin. Gelatin is essentially sugar, food coloring, gelatin itself and water. You pay more for transit and packaging costs than you do for the product itself. Kozy shack pudding uses actual milk, not dry skim milk powder (which is dirt cheap, but still more expensive than water). The rest of the ingredients are about on par with gelatin. Besides which, WDW already has a contract for pudding cups. They buy them from swiss miss. Swiss miss you might note uses skim milk. More expensive than reconstituting milk, but since you can sell off the butterfat portion it's less outrageous than whole milk pudding. Providing pudding at the same rate as jello is roughly analogous to adding milk to the free mug refills program at the resorts in terms of cost. You'll note that a soda in the parks costs roughly the same as an equivalent volume of milk, just like gelatin and pudding are around the same price in the grocery store. It's what the market will bear, not what the ingredients cost.

As for the entree choices -- ask any child if he would prefer a hamburger or a sloppy joe, and 90% (or more) of them will pick a burger. Disney serves kids' hamburgers at several other CS restaurants -- except for Pecos Bill's, which specializes in burgers.

I suspect that's because Pecos Bill's also sells bbq pork. The bbq pork and sloppy joe have essentially identical heating and holding procedures and equipment. And the chilled chicken at Pecos Bill's is doubtless the same chicken (or possibly slightly different chicken, but probably stored on the line in the same container) as the chicken for the adult salads.


Now I'm curious. Hrm - I don't see anywhere in MK that has burgers for kids. I see..

chicken salad
chicken nuggets
corn dogs
chicken noodle soup
tacos
pb&j
mac and cheese (twice)
grilled chicken with cheese
sloppy joe
Chilled chicken

So other than a single repeat of Mac and cheese - there's really a lot of variety.

AK has
chicken drumstick
mac and cheese
hot dog
baked chicken wings
pb&j
cheese quesadilla

Epcot has
mac and cheese (twice in FW)
chicken nuggets (twice, once in FW, once in WS)
turkey and cheese pinwheels
sweet and sour chicken
sub sandwich
chicken leg
chicken and cheese quesadilla
pb&j (twice in WS, although one of them had no adult entrees -that's a credit thing)
chilled chicken over romaine
egg roll and fried rice
burger
pizza
chicken tenders (presumably whole meat, not nugget)
teriyaki chicken

MGM has
chicken nuggets
fried fish
veggie noodle stir-fry
grilled chicken wrap
chicken drumstick
pb&j


Really - if you have a kid who only eats mac and cheese, or only eats PB&J - there aren't many places you can eat. If your child eats chicken - they can eat almost anywhere. There's much more variety than non-variety.

Disney sells kids' pizza at several of their CS venues -- except for Pizzafari, where the specialty of the house is obviously pizza. This makes no sense at all, and is disappointing to families who go to a pizza place, wait in line anticipating pizza, and everyone gets pizza, except their 7 year old who gets...a quesadilla? Or PB&J?

Well, except that they really only sell it as a kid's meal in Morocco of all places. And at the other venue that sells pizza (Pizza Planet) they presumably feed kids pizza because there isn't a children's menu. My understanding is the Pizzafari has logistic reasons for not serving pizza on the children's menu.

I propose pretty much the same thing for kids' entrees -- two or three choices on each menu. One standard favorite (like a hot dog, burger, or chicken strips), one item appropriate to the restaurant's theme (ie: pizza at a pizza place, taco at a Mexican place), and one item appropriate for vegetarian kids.

Yeah, but that's really sort of how it is now.
AK has 2 CS out of 3 that are like that. And the quesadilla at Pizzafari sort of ties in with their hot sandwiches.
All of MGM is like that.
Epcot is almost exclusively like that, they did a really good job with Sunshine Seasons, for example.
At MK it's a little less ideal, but that's really prime kid territory and there's a lot of variety in the kid's meals with very little prep space. The big exceptions are Pecos Bill's (and there are no kid's burgers in the parks), Cosmic Ray's - where they serve the same kid's options at all bays so it has to take up very little space - you'll note it's all fried, or friedged except the soup that fits in a single hot pot. And Tommorrowland Noodle Terrace which is only open seasonally and is still trying to find itself.

I mean really - most theme parks are much, much worse. Disney does amazingly well, IMO.

It's not that hard. They already serve each one of those entrees at a few of their CS restaurants. All they have to do is shuffle the deck a bit. By keeping with the restaurant's theming, the same equipment can be used to prepare kids' meals as adult meals, which will save time and is more efficient.

Yeah, except that using the same equipment isn't always what you're going after. What you're going after is "doesn't interrupt throughput" particularly throughput of adult meals, which are the profit center. Sometimes that means re-using the same equipment as the adult meals do, and sometimes it means not reusing the same equipment because that equipment is at capacity. It *always* means low labor cost and using excess capacity. I don't think that any of us know WDW CS kitchens well enough to know which ones have extra capacity where.

Yes, it costs money to change a menu, but the change menus all the time. Maybe next time they change a menu, they could do something that makes sense. "Scientific" market surveys are all well and good, but the real, unedited voice of the consumer is on these boards -- whether or not Disney chooses to listen to it.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Changing menus on a one for one basis itself doesn't cost a significant amount of money. New signage, swap a few items in the computer, no net additions or deletions. The manner in which you change a menu can be very expensive or it can save money.

Guests would be pleased with the changes. They would meet the needs/desires of many guests (peanut allergies, vegetarian, want healthy choices like milk and fruit, kids want fries and soda, etc). To help cover any costs incurred, Disney could raise the price of some of the CS meals so they are all $4.99 or even $5.50, across the board, which further simplifies and streamlines things.

I wouldn't count on it - I'd be really mad if they raised the prices again for children's menu items. Particularly by that much. A 25% or 38% increase in the cost of a children's meal? I'm already irritated that they got rid of high-fat milk (it used to be whole, and they've gone to cheaper 2% or skim, even at TS) and that chocolate milk appears to no longer be an option for kid's meals on the dining plan. Off the dining plan you're paying for a kid's drink anyway and then having to purchase a separate chocolate milk and find someone to pawn off the child beverage on.

Ultimate benefits to Disney:
Guests will be happier with the choices -- happy, satisfied guests spend a lot of money

Oh my, you must believe in Tinkerbell - most guests have a fixed amount of money to spend on vacation. And they spend it until they're gone. Keeping the money on property is the most you can hope for.

More guests will want the dining plan/will not be hesitant because they dislike the kids' menus (and it seems like Disney is heavily promoting the DDP and they want guests to purchase it)

Most visitors to WDW haven't even read a guidebook - let alone all the menus online. That's a trivial, trivial percentage of park-goers who have a) read the menus online b) found them lacking c) would prefer any reasonably cost effective alternatives

Guests will not be as inclined to cheat and use child credits for adult CS meals because their kids hate the kids' choices

Nah, people who cheat do it because they can, not because their kids hate the options. If their kids hated the dining plan they'd figure out if it was cost effective to use the dining plan and pay OOP for their kids or if the dining plan was a bad fit. Kids hating the dining plan is just a handy excuse. It would just be "My child has an adult appetite and needs more food" or "My child needs something other than pudding and jello! Pudding and jello for 2 weeks gets old!"

Now really - I understand the the choices are not what people on the Disboards seem to want. However, I don't know that more choices would solve it.

 

[dawnball]

Interesting; I wonder if that's why Cosmic Ray's is structured as it is, with three Bays, with food from each Bay only displayed on the menu for that Bay.

Yup, pretty much. It's why you get multiple stations at resort food courts too. It's much easier to say "I feel like a burger" and then pick the one you want than it is to pick a single cheeseburger off a list of 20 items.

I spent some time tonight poking allearsnet's menus. My main gripe with them is that they're alphabetical within parks, but have no other separations. Even knowing what all the CS locations in the parks were it was hard to open all the CS menus to inspect them. Your eyes just glide on past sometimes.

 

[dawnball]

Ah, that's it, can't type anymore. But one thing I think we can both agree on -- we both love Disney. Notice my ticker? One month until we leave for WDW!

Rest your wrists, rest your wrists! Wrists are very important things, without them life is just no fun! I hope I didn't come off too argumentative - I've been dealing with beating business realities into clients this week, so it's kind of a habit at this point.

And Hah, Ha! I'm going to Disney beeeeefffffoooooooorrrrreeeee you. Of course, I'll be leaving about the time you're getting there, and then I'll be all sad. Bah. That's means I'm *leaving* Disney in a month. poo.

 

[Katiebell]

Rest your wrists, rest your wrists! Wrists are very important things, without them life is just no fun!

Actually, it's the radial nerve that runs down the length of my arm -- gotta love repetitive stress injuries But thanks I can't seem to stay off the stupid boards...especially when someone takes the time to address almost every sentence I write It just takes me a lonnnnnnnng time to post, that's all...have to keep walking away from the keyboard.

I hope I didn't come off too argumentative - I've been dealing with beating business realities into clients this week, so it's kind of a habit at this point.

Nope, not at all, I'm fairly used to it You see, I've been having conversations with Bicker since...hmmm...January? I am used to the corporate view, "We can't do it, too costly, too difficult, it'll never work, people will pay for this stuff as it is anyway, systems are too difficult to change...etc..." And I hear it at work, too. I just roll my eyes at management now, and do what I can for the customer. But things change, they always do, and the pendulum swings -- if it gets to the point that the consumers no longer see the value in what they are being offered for what they are being charged, then the company figures out pretty dang quick what kind of changes they need to make to keep their customers (ie ME to keep them from renting cars and going to Universal), and exactly how much money they are willing to spend to do it. Fortunately, Disney has a incredible base of loyal fans, who would probably keep coming back even if they switched to liver tacos with a side of brussel sprouts for ALL of their kids' meals -- those guests uh...just wouldn't order the kids' meals anymore.

Your lists of kids' options amused me because I've made virtually those same lists, and have been emailing them out to people who ask -- "what are the best choices for kids?"
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=17869058&postcount=6
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=17468130&postcount=36
The kids CS meals, overall...kinda...eww And, as I've pointed out, Disney could improve them dramatically -- or maybe not, since the computer system is so antiquated, and Disney can't possibly cut into their profits to feed these poor children anything more interesting or appetizing than SF jello and sloppy joes, so I guess the kids' meals will be like this forever and ever Except, they changed them last October, and they'll probably change them again. Aside from that...things being what they are right now, there are definitely some choices that are better than others, if you know where to look

And yes, Epcot definitely has the best, or at least the most varied choices for CS. Or you can take your kid to Pizza Planet, Casey's, or one of the other restaurants that don't have a kid's menu. And for TS, I recommend buffets if your kids want adult food or are big eaters, but you don't want to pay the adult price, or are on the DDP and they have to order off the kids' menus. Buffets are not my first choice either, but hey gotta feed the kids. Character meals and Boma, whoo hoo! But quite a few of the kids' TS meals look pretty good, too.

And Hah, Ha! I'm going to Disney beeeeefffffoooooooorrrrreeeee you. Of course, I'll be leaving about the time you're getting there, and then I'll be all sad. Bah. That's means I'm *leaving* Disney in a month. poo.

Ah, well, then...I promise not to say, "neener neener" as you leave It's our first trip to WDW -- we go to DL about once a year. I grew up in the Los Angeles area, right near where it all started.

 

[stephensmum]

Hi Katiebell. loved your posts yesterday, agree with your points & just hope Disney will. I go in May with dh & ds9 for 14 nights & have bought ddp & whilst I think it is still good value, it as beenhard work sorting menus. My ds likes jello, but not everyday. Keep up the good work, watch them wrists, you need them for waving at the characters.
Sharon

 

[bicker]

Dawnball's response was brilliant. (Brought tears to my eyes -- someone else DOES understand this! Maybe better than I do!!!! )

Nope. I have an acquaintance who's husband works on Disney's dining computer systems. It's nowhere near that easy, in part because the system is amazingly antiquated. Since I'm in the process of updating another amazingly antiquated industrial database, you couldn't pay me enough money to work on their systems - not even to work for the Mouse on those systems. And there's no upgrade in sight because it isn't economically viable.

Thanks for that insight! I knew it was antiquated years ago, but didn't know that they had not yet updated it yet.

Aside from the back needing to know what to put on the tray - there are valid management reasons to track it. How do you know they have the same averaged cost if you don't track them? Averaged cost isn't (x + y + z)/n. It's (x*a +y*b +z*c)/n. And even that is oversimplified. You have to account for individual shrinkage, and how much of that shrinkage is unavoidable vs how much is due to lack of demand, vs how much is bad upselling/crossselling. "Would you like jello with that?" gets a very different reaction than "Would you like jello or vanilla pudding?" for example. And with good inventory tracking you can tell *where* your shrinkage is occurring. You can also forecast how much you need to order in the future, reliably send more product to CS locations when it's needed and generally manage your supply chain much more efficiently.

As I indicated earlier: It's not a simple as many folks would like it to be.

Tracking halfway across the park because "I want the mac and cheese that comes with CHOCOLATE pudding, not VANILLA pudding, Mommy. Don't you like me??" would drive me to suicide. Or alternatively to refuse to go to WDW with my niece.

Agreed!

Pudding costs significantly more than gelatin on the wholesale market. Particularly non-jello gelatin. Gelatin is essentially sugar, food coloring, gelatin itself and water. You pay more for transit and packaging costs than you do for the product itself. Kozy shack pudding uses actual milk, not dry skim milk powder (which is dirt cheap, but still more expensive than water). The rest of the ingredients are about on par with gelatin.

I did a little research, trying to find the unit price for Kozy Shack's various offerings, but couldn't find anything online. Do you have any idea how much more the Jammin' Gels cost as compared to the GelTreats?

It's what the market will bear, not what the ingredients cost.

Always.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

This is the most brilliant thing I've read in weeks!

most guests have a fixed amount of money to spend on vacation. And they spend it until they're gone. Keeping the money on property is the most you can hope for.

And make things too expensive -- especially for families of young children -- and you'll lose their business entirely. They are clearly accepting of lower quality; they will likely not be accepting of higher prices.

Nah, people who cheat do it because they can, not because their kids hate the options. If their kids hated the dining plan they'd figure out if it was cost effective to use the dining plan and pay OOP for their kids or if the dining plan was a bad fit. Kids hating the dining plan is just a handy excuse.

I agree. People will either be bold enough to admit they're cheating, or rationalize it away. There is no justification for accepting an offer and then knowingly violating its terms.

Now really - I understand the the choices are not what people on the Disboards seem to want. However, I don't know that more choices would solve it.

Ditto, and thank you for saying it all much better than I did.

 

[Tink10]

Actually, it's the radial nerve that runs down the length of my arm -- gotta love repetitive stress injuries But thanks I can't seem to stay off the stupid boards...especially when someone takes the time to address almost every sentence I write It just takes me a lonnnnnnnng time to post, that's all...have to keep walking away from the keyboard.

I don't want to go too far off topic here, but Katiebell, you're the first person I've "met" who also has a radial nerve issue. I have/had radial tunnel syndrome & just had surgery to release it 2 weeks ago.....It's a major pain & I hope things are going well for you....

 

[Katiebell]

Dawnball's response was brilliant. (Brought tears to my eyes -- someone else DOES understand this! Maybe better than I do!!!! )

Aw, bicker...I'm touched...this is the happiest I've ever seen you...I'm so glad to witness this special moment...

Thanks for that insight! I knew it was antiquated years ago, but didn't know that they had not yet updated it yet.

Perhaps they should consider updating their system and bringing it into the 21st century They are definitely having problems with the old system -- I asked a Disney CM if the servers disliked the DDP for any reason, and he said really the only reason it was a hassle was because the cash register system was "ancient" (I believe that was the word he used), and was a pain in the rear to use. It makes good business sense to update -- and they could stop the rampant abuse of the CS credits at the same time. Yes, it would cost a ton of money. Disney brings in a ton of money every day, and spends a ton of money every day.

As I indicated earlier: It's not a simple as many folks would like it to be.

Neither was building Expedition Everest...or figuring out a way for Tink to fly from the Castle during the fireworks. If Disney is motivated to improve their kids' meals (by $$$ if that's the only motivation they have), then they will.

I did a little research, trying to find the unit price for Kozy Shack's various offerings, but couldn't find anything online. Do you have any idea how much more the Jammin' Gels cost as compared to the GelTreats?

I can't either. The only thing I can find is the current average retail price of 4 4oz cups of their pudding is about 2.95-3.69. A six pack of regular pudding is about 3.99, but a 4 pack of sugar free is 3.79 -- so it seems to cost more for the artificially sweetened variety. That's retail, but I have no idea what 50,000 units would cost Can't find a retail price for gelatin anywhere...maybe they only sell it to Disney and hospitals?

And make things too expensive -- especially for families of young children -- and you'll lose their business entirely. They are clearly accepting of lower quality; they will likely not be accepting of higher prices.

I disagree on this point. I believe if most parents had a choice of a frozen PB&J, grapes, and sugar free gelatin for 3.99, or burger, fries, and chocolate pudding for 4.99, they'd pay the extra dollar to ensure their kid was happy with the meal.

I agree. People will either be bold enough to admit they're cheating, or rationalize it away. There is no justification for accepting an offer and then knowingly violating its terms.

I've seen a lot more rationalizing than bold admittance

Have a wonderful day, folks....I'm off to work

 

[Katiebell]

I don't want to go too far off topic here, but Katiebell, you're the first person I've "met" who also has a radial nerve issue. I have/had radial tunnel syndrome & just had surgery to release it 2 weeks ago.....It's a major pain & I hope things are going well for you....

Thanks...I wish you well, too! This is my second surgery...first didn't work...really hope this one does, or I'll be looking for another position -- hopefully at the same employer.

 

[dawnball]

Actually, it's the radial nerve that runs down the length of my arm -- gotta love repetitive stress injuries But thanks I can't seem to stay off the stupid boards...especially when someone takes the time to address almost every sentence I write It just takes me a lonnnnnnnng time to post, that's all...have to keep walking away from the keyboard.

Yeah, the three outer fingers on my right arm are numb this morning, and I should know better since I've had carpal tunnel or the equivalent (I can change which nerves get squished, but I can't seem to stop squishing) for better than 10 years at this point. Fortunately I can just designate this a low-typing day and do lots of nerve glides.

I am used to the corporate view, "We can't do it, too costly, too difficult, it'll never work, people will pay for this stuff as it is anyway, systems are too difficult to change...etc..." And I hear it at work, too. I just roll my eyes at management now, and do what I can for the customer. But things change, they always do, and the pendulum swings -- if it gets to the point that the consumers no longer see the value in what they are being offered for what they are being charged, then the company figures out pretty dang quick what kind of changes they need to make to keep their customers (ie ME to keep them from renting cars and going to Universal), and exactly how much money they are willing to spend to do it.

Well, if that was the impression you got, I didn't do a very good job last night. My point isn't that Disney doesn't have to change anything - it's that Disney is somewhat constrained in what they can do.

Menus change, but they do so on a schedule that is determined by a lot of factors that the consumer and customer support are generally unaware of. Everything from computer tech time to long term contracts for more gelatin than anyone will ever eat. In addition, Disney has to find something to replace it with that meets their needs.

Fortunately, Disney has a incredible base of loyal fans, who would probably keep coming back even if they switched to liver tacos with a side of brussel sprouts for ALL of their kids' meals -- those guests uh...just wouldn't order the kids' meals anymore.

No, Disney needs to keep them eating kid's meals. Generally people will traipse around the parks and let the kids get what they want to eat (or all sort of nibble as they wander around) but once you lose them off property you might not get them back. ME is about making it more inconvenient to get off property more than it is about providing a valuable service. Disney is quite aware of that, but most people won't leave property over a dessert they don't like - they'll just buy a Mickey bar.

The kids CS meals, overall...kinda...eww

Eh, Overall I don't find them bad. There's some wierdness, but taken as a park they're pretty acceptable and there's really quite a bit of variety. Then again, I don't consider chilled chicken to be a bad idea if it's decent. I haven't ever eaten that one, but cold chicken strips and veggies dipped in stuff is a popular lunch item around here. It's a salad with none of that yucky lettuce. I'd believe that the gelatin is vile, although with that much food coloring I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.

Interestingly enough, it looks like Disney is doing something right. Year over year WDW spending is up. About a dollar per room guest in 2005 and $5 per room guest in 2006. So Jello doesn't appear to be a deal-breaker for most people.

 

[bicker]

Perhaps they should consider updating their system and bringing it into the 21st century

Of course they will, once it becomes beneficial enough to do.

They are definitely having problems with the old system

We don't know if the Disney company is having significant-enough problems with it to warrant making a change.

It makes good business sense to update

Or maybe not.

Yes, it would cost a ton of money. Disney brings in a ton of money every day, and spends a ton of money every day.

And it would be irresponsible to spend a ton of money unless there was a real benefit to be had, a benefit in terms of improvement to long-term shareholder value.

If Disney is motivated to improve their kids' meals (by $$$ if that's the only motivation they have), then they will.

Correct. It's going to come down, solely, to whether or not guests provide Disney with enough motivation to make changes, and that's a matter of their purchasing behaviors, not their posting behaviors.

Can't find a retail price for gelatin anywhere...maybe they only sell it to Disney and hospitals?

That actually I did find out... that is indeed the case. What they're serving is a Food Service only product, as far as I can tell.

I disagree on this point. I believe if most parents had a choice of a frozen PB&J, grapes, and sugar free gelatin for 3.99, or burger, fries, and chocolate pudding for 4.99, they'd pay the extra dollar to ensure their kid was happy with the meal.

We can speculate; Disney knows.

 

[bicker]

Interestingly enough, it looks like Disney is doing something right. Year over year WDW spending is up. About a dollar per room guest in 2005 and $5 per room guest in 2006. So Jello doesn't appear to be a deal-breaker for most people.

Yes, great point.

 

[Lewisc]

I think this may one of the few examples where the dining plan might be blamed. The kids plan costs $11, the snack is worth $3-$4 and a character meal is worth around $15.

Assume Disney is looking for kids meals that literally costs Disney next to nothing. Under that context SF jello makes the most sense. Not only can Disney claim SF is healthier but it looks like it's less expensive. Cash guests might be willing to pay an extra dollar for a better kids dessert but dining plan guests would complain if Disney "treated their kids as second class citizens".

Maybe Disney should just put the better pudding (Jammin Jell) on the adult menu. Let parents pay cash or use a snack credit.

edited to say Dawnball makes a great point. The kids menu doesn't seem to be hurting business. Cash guests can just pay few extra dollars for an adult CS meal. Dining plan guests are getting a great deal and either deal with the limitations (including sharing meals with their kids and/or paying cash) or scheme.

 

[Katiebell]

Yeah, the three outer fingers on my right arm are numb this morning, and I should know better since I've had carpal tunnel or the equivalent (I can change which nerves get squished, but I can't seem to stop squishing) for better than 10 years at this point. Fortunately I can just designate this a low-typing day and do lots of nerve glides.

Ouchie Then you can empathize. Sorry to hear you've had issues, too...those of us who are chained to a computer 8 hours a day are prone to these problems, I think. And then we come home and...type some more

Well, if that was the impression you got, I didn't do a very good job last night. My point isn't that Disney doesn't have to change anything - it's that Disney is somewhat constrained in what they can do.

No, you did a fine job But you made several points, including that there is "no upgrade in sight because it isn't economically viable". Your friend's husband has described the Disney dining computer system as "amazingly antiquated" and has indicated that it is extremely difficult to add or change menu items. The CM server I chatted with described the system as ancient and a pain to use. Guests are continuing to abuse CS credits because the computer system allows them to do so -- and report that CM's not only allow them to do so, but encourage it. Why? Is it because the cashiering is such a hassle? An average adult CS meal with a beverage costs $12.50. The average kids' CS meals runs $4.50. That means, face value, Disney is losing $8 in revenue for every kids' credit that is redeemed for an adult meal. I know there are other factors like actual profit margin after calculating production costs, but it does show that Disney is losing a significant amount of revenue each time that happens. Upgrading their dining computer system would have significant benefits despite the cost.

Menus change, but they do so on a schedule that is determined by a lot of factors that the consumer and customer support are generally unaware of. Everything from computer tech time to long term contracts for more gelatin than anyone will ever eat. In addition, Disney has to find something to replace it with that meets their needs.

Yes, absolutely -- menus change all the time. So the next time Disney changes a menu, they can change it to something that makes sense -- which is often an item that they are already serving at another restaurant. They are serving kids' burgers at Tangierine and Hurricane Hannah's, so they could manage to serve them at Pecos Bill's. They are serving CS pizza at Tangierine, so they could use that same supplier to serve it at Pizzafari. I doubt many would mourn the passing of the sloppy joe and the quesadilla from the menus. If they are already changing the menu anyway, there would be no additional costs incurred over and above what they are already doing to change the register programming and introduce a new item.

No, Disney needs to keep them eating kid's meals. Generally people will traipse around the parks and let the kids get what they want to eat (or all sort of nibble as they wander around) but once you lose them off property you might not get them back. ME is about making it more inconvenient to get off property more than it is about providing a valuable service. Disney is quite aware of that, but most people won't leave property over a dessert they don't like - they'll just buy a Mickey bar.

Yep...and if the food is unappealing or a bad enough value, they could make the trip to DTD to McDonald's (they'd probably do better at EOS or WPE). And I agree, ME is a perfect example of Disney spending the money (for that whole fleet of buses) to gain a financial benefit (guests don't leave the property). Sheer marketing genius. But...in order for the guests to buy in to the ME idea and give up the convenience and freedom of having their own car, Disney made the ME pleasant, free, friendly, convenient, inviting... If they had broken down buses with uncomfortable seats, rude baggage handlers, and surly drivers, then would stop using the ME service.

Eh, Overall I don't find them bad. There's some wierdness, but taken as a park they're pretty acceptable and there's really quite a bit of variety. Then again, I don't consider chilled chicken to be a bad idea if it's decent. I haven't ever eaten that one, but cold chicken strips and veggies dipped in stuff is a popular lunch item around here. It's a salad with none of that yucky lettuce. I'd believe that the gelatin is vile, although with that much food coloring I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.

It's odd...at home, we feed our children the same foods we eat, and wouldn't normally cook them something "substandard" unless it's what they really wanted -- like a burger when we grill steak for adults. And we wouldn't feed them poor quality burger simply because it's cheap and they are just kids. A lot of the stuff on those menus? I wouldn't eat it, especially not for a solid week -- wouldn't expect my children to, either. If I had young children (mine are grown) and wanted the DDP for my family, I'd search high and low for the best TS and CS options for kids (hence, my lists), and we'd eat at a lot of buffets, even if that's not ideally where the adults wanted to eat. I'd share a lot with my kids, too, and buy them extras OOP or use snack credits for them.

Interestingly enough, it looks like Disney is doing something right. Year over year WDW spending is up. About a dollar per room guest in 2005 and $5 per room guest in 2006. So Jello doesn't appear to be a deal-breaker for most people.

Disney does a LOT of things right...that's why we all keep going back. But there are things they could definitely do better. Hopefully the next round of changes to the kids' menus will be an improvement.

 

[Katiebell]

And it would be irresponsible to spend a ton of money unless there was a real benefit to be had, a benefit in terms of improvement to long-term shareholder value.

Out of curiosity, how much money did Disney spend on creating the Cinderella Suite in the castle? Hardwood paneling, stained glass windows, some of the furnishings are genuine antiques and the others are costly reproductions, huge elaborate murals surrounding the bathtub made from 30,000 hand-cut Italian smalti glass tiles...it's a lovely idea. Great PR for sure. But the vast, overwhelming number of Disney guests will never stay there, will never set foot in it, will never even see it except for pictures. It's being used as a prize, a night's lodging being given away for free. For a promo that is going on for one year. After that...who will stay there? Disney executives? Will visiting celebrities and dignitaries want to stay in a hotel suite that they can't leave because it is locked down like Fort Knox every night? Will it cost $1000 a night to stay there? If so...then it's the same value as 125 childs' CS credits being redeemed for adult meals, at a loss of $8 per meal. I'd say the benefit of updating an antiquated cashiering system to fix that loophole, and to make inevitable future menu changes easier and less costly, would be more of an improvement to long-term shareholder value.

Correct. It's going to come down, solely, to whether or not guests provide Disney with enough motivation to make changes, and that's a matter of their purchasing behaviors, not their posting behaviors.

And guest surveys and focus groups. A couple of people have posted that they've been surveyed by Disney about kids' meal choices -- don't know how recently. The more people that contact them regarding their displeasure, the more likely Disney may seek opinions before the next menu changes. And there is always PR and publicity. Disney shifted to "healthy" choices not because they wanted to offer healthy choices, but to try to appeal to that segment of their customer base and to make Disney look "concerned" about healthy diets for children. Just ignore those funnel cakes and Mickey bars over there...

That actually I did find out... that is indeed the case. What they're serving is a Food Service only product, as far as I can tell.

bicker...pssst.... it's Soylent Green

 

[bicker]

But you made several points, including that there is "no upgrade in sight because it isn't economically viable". Your friend's husband has described the Disney dining computer system as "amazingly antiquated" and has indicated that it is extremely difficult to add or change menu items. The CM server I chatted with described the system as ancient and a pain to use. Guests are continuing to abuse CS credits because the computer system allows them to do so

And yet, despite all that, the upgrade is not economically viable. IT is incredibly expensive sometimes.

Yes, absolutely -- menus change all the time. So the next time Disney changes a menu, they can change it to something that makes sense

I think it is fair to assume that their changes always make sense, based on their objectives, if not yours.

They are serving kids' burgers at Tangierine

That's not Disney.

and Hurricane Hannah's

That's outside the theme parks. Remember, the reason that there is no hamburger at Pecos Bill's is likely not because of the cost differential, but rather because of guest purchasing behaviors. It seems to me that you'd have an easier time getting what you want by changing guest behaviors.

 

[bicker]

Out of curiosity, how much money did Disney spend on creating the Cinderella Suite in the castle?

Interesting question, but I believe wholly irrelevant. That suite was created almost exclusively as a marketing expense, like painting the castle pink (and it probably didn't cost as much as painting the castle pink! )

I'd say the benefit of updating an antiquated cashiering system to fix that loophole, and to make inevitable future menu changes easier and less costly, would be more of an improvement to long-term shareholder value.

You can say whatever you wish. That doesn't make it true. The truth requires facts, and Disney has the facts, none of us do (although apparently dawnball is "close" to the truth ).

And guest surveys and focus groups. A couple of people have posted that they've been surveyed by Disney about kids' meal choices -- don't know how recently.

We were after our visit last year. (Sorry, but our little ones were satisfied, and so we said so.)

The more people that contact them regarding their displeasure, the more likely Disney may seek opinions before the next menu changes.

No, they're going to ask about satisfaction with meal choices every time, no matter what.

And there is always PR and publicity. Disney shifted to "healthy" choices not because they wanted to offer healthy choices, but to try to appeal to that segment of their customer base and to make Disney look "concerned" about healthy diets for children. Just ignore those funnel cakes and Mickey bars over there...

So? I'm not sure what you're saying here...