Please Don't Bash The DDP!

[jtnsami]

I've been trying to keep up with these posts since they started, and I'd just like to say thank you for all the opinions. These posts (most) are respectful of the other posters.

As for the DDP, I've only been to Disney once so past experiences have no bearing. I liked the DDP and will do it again on future trips. Maybe after 4-5 trips I'll figure out the difference.

 

[gina2000]

I don't hate the DDP. I think the menus have been changed for the worse and I have to think it's because restaurants are getting paid less per head than the traditional OOP patron's tab. I think that's pretty much a no-brainer to compare the price of the DDP and the price of an identical OOP meal. I honestly don't believe menus/portion sizes have changed due to health reasons. That's pretty altruistic and I guess I'm suspicious enough about corporate motives not to believe they have our welfare near and dear to their hearts.

Some people have made good points, things I hadn't thought of, though. Not everyone would order a 3 course meal at a TS restaurant if they were paying OOP. We usually do because of our eating pattern....and we rarely eat CS. So for us, the DDP works monetarily should we choose to eat all of our meals on site. And the comparison in price is pretty huge if you order a 3 course meal at a TS restaurant....even with excluding CS meals.

The question I always have (and will continue to ask) is what % of the restaurant patrons are on the DDP. I wonder if it's 25%.....50%.....or more. How many of us are paying OOP verses the DDP price? No one knows, of course. But it's an interesting question because there must be a breakeven point for WDW. How many DDP patrons should fill a restaurant verses OOP patrons to maximize profits? I think the alleged change in the DDP pricing structure suggests that the DDP patrons might be crowding out OOP patrons....hence the alleged increase. That or the DDP is losing just enough money that the powers that be needed to refine the plan to make it reach the profitability margin they were seeking. IMHO, many people will eat what they have paid for and what they are allowed to order regardless of what their normal eating patterns were prior to the DDP. I wonder if WDW thought that they wouldn't. We'll never know.

I do also feel that the crowding out of locals is a bad business decision in the long term. So many locals have supported the WDW economy during the slow times and have consistantly used the signature restaurants for business purposes as well as family events. Hopping over to a park on a Saturday is akin to me hopping over to NYC. I buy things, I play and I eat. I keep the city's economy going when the tourist trade is weak. So did the locals.

At this point, I'm going to support my local economy with my discretionary income. I used to save it for WDW dining but I just don't think it's worth it anymore. I'm sorry that so many of you think that people like myself have an elitist attitude or despise the great unwashed. When I'm in a restaurant, I don't even think of people around me, what they're ordering or what it costs them. I think of FOOD. And right now, the food OOP is just not worth it to me. If I choose to do the DDP, I won't patronize the 2 TC restaurants...they're not worth that $$ due to reduced portions and simplified presentations/ingredients. But that's me.

Oh, and for the record, I love busy restaurants.

 

[captinhookedondisney]

I think that the DDP is amazing. I think the DDP made the food better.

 

[apostolic4life]

Wow, so many great posts on this thread I think this is the most respectful and positive discussion regarding the DDP I've ever seen on these boards, from both sides -- with very few exceptions

Your words and attitude are respectful and pleasant........thanks!!! You are correct, this is one of the most positive discussions about DDP I have seen. It's nice to voice an opinion and have open discussion without getting flamed.

 

[jodifla]

I actually agree with Bicker. Disney is looking for that sweet spot of high prices and mass acceptance....It was always clear to me that the DDP was a huge loss leader and pyramid scheme, and that's turned out to be true.

There were certain people who got a great deal with the DDP...particularly at the beginning, when they let you share, convert kids credits to adults, and before they dumbed down the menu to help pay for the whole fiasco.

They filled up the restaurants and the resorts....and have now started alienating longtime customers.

Those of us who have been on all the rides over and over and over again looked to the restaurants as part of the experience. And it was FANTASTIC in the 90s. Now that that has been taken away, WDW is going to struggle with keeping repeat customers, particularly the locals, who are VERY important to WDW restaurants during ANY kind of downturn.

It's a heck of a lot easier to keep bringing people back with good restaurants than to keep building zillion dollar rides.

It's been clear for at least a year with all the surveys they have been doing that Disney has been interesting in majorly revamping the DDP. Like anything else at WDW, the cost will eventually go up sensationally, and most people will abandon it.

 

[Cass]

Honestly, I felt the food quality, variety and service was better on my recent trip then in the past few years I have been there. I have no complaints with the DDP.

 

[apostolic4life]

I don't hate the DDP. I think the menus have been changed for the worse and I have to think it's because restaurants are getting paid less per head than the traditional OOP patron's tab. I think that's pretty much a no-brainer to compare the price of the DDP and the price of an identical OOP meal. I honestly don't believe menus/portion sizes have changed due to health reasons. That's pretty altruistic and I guess I'm suspicious enough about corporate motives not to believe they have our welfare near and dear to their hearts.

Some people have made good points, things I hadn't thought of, though. Not everyone would order a 3 course meal at a TS restaurant if they were paying OOP. We usually do because of our eating pattern....and we rarely eat CS. So for us, the DDP works monetarily should we choose to eat all of our meals on site. And the comparison in price is pretty huge if you order a 3 course meal at a TS restaurant....even with excluding CS meals.

I think you make a great point about the portion sizes. No, they do not have our physical health in mind.....it is their financial health which they are most concerned with. Although, industry trends are going to smaller portions because of the publics health concerns. Most quality restaurants have replaced the larger portions with beautiful plate presentations to take focus off of the smaller portion size. This practice is fine with me on the DDP since you do get three courses on the plan (although not all the DDP venues are as concerned with presentation). Again, I have to say I believe the trends we are seeing are not a result of the DDP; I think the changes are due to the basic business model they have chosen for the majority of Disney owned restaurants on the DDP (they are managed as if they are chain restaurants instead of independent venues). To follow this type of highly profitable model they are forced to homogenize restaurants.

I do also feel that the crowding out of locals is a bad business decision in the long term. So many locals have supported the WDW economy during the slow times and have consistantly used the signature restaurants for business purposes as well as family events. Hopping over to a park on a Saturday is akin to me hopping over to NYC. I buy things, I play and I eat. I keep the city's economy going when the tourist trade is weak. So did the locals.

I know that in the beginning locals were coveted patrons for WDW since many people did not make the trek to Florida in the early years, but with current attendance levels from around the globe, local business is not needful for success. I know this does not seem fair, but as the business of WDW becomes more accessible to more people, locals will not be catered to as they have been in the past. Fair or not they are a very small part of the Disney financial picture these days and Disney really won't cater to them because of the changing face of the business. As for off-season or slow time, is there really such a thing at WDW anymore? It seems as though even in the "value" seasons WDW has a special event going to draw the masses. Times are changing and the quaint little park of the not too distant past is growing up.

 

[lustergirl]

I often wonder, when reading threads like this, if there's an unofficial "class system" in place at WDW.

To hear some talk, the advent of the value resorts was like the Apocalypse, in that "anyone" could afford to stay on property. I recall one poster saying that it was bringing "undesirables" to WDW, and was serious in saying so. Another poster said that the proliferation of thrill rides (Mission:Space, Rock and Roller Coaster, Everest) was bringing too many teenagers on property and WDW was becoming just another theme park. The pro vs. con debate on the value of the DDP can have that same flavor. And, I made the mistake of wandering into a thread which talked about the new smoking policy at WDW and DVC resorts. Ho-leee cow!

So there are basically two-broadly defined groups in play here: those who wanted things to stay as they were (more "exclusive" resorts, restaurants, more liberal smoking policies, more sedate park attractions), and those who are OK with changes (more affordable resorts, more affordable dining options, thrill rides in the parks, etc.)

Honestly, though ... it just seems that it's easy enough to find an upscale lodging experience - most any concierge level room should work. Better than decent food is available - I sure don't complain about Jiko, Citrico's, certainly V&A's. If someone doesn't like thrill rides, don't get on them. As for the smoking policy, well, if you aren't pleased with it, write or call or email the Disney Powers that Be and express your concerns.

Change is inevitable, and part of our resistance to change is that all change, even the good kind, involves some sort of loss. You can be happily married, but you did lose a certain type of independence when you got married, for example. And when you start losing favorite menu items, or perceive the parks to be overrun by hoodlums or by people who "just aren't our kind," then the loss is acute.

Fact is, Disney exists to make a profit and enrich shareholders. I'll bet all these decisions were made to increase the bottom line. If Disney doesn't make a profit, we all suffer. Capitalism rocks, and they are going to do whatever is appropriate to keep rooms and restaurants and parks full. And Disney does provide excellence, as witness the increase in the gate at Animal Kingdom primarily because of the extraordinary Expedition Everest, an example of what Disney does best (and watch for the movie based on the ride soon!)

If someone comes to my favorite place (WDW), and is able to experience just a bit of the magic I've enjoyed for decades because of the DDP or Pop Century, then heck, I'll celebrate right along with 'em.

It's all good.

I think there is a class system at disney. But this isn't disney's fault it is the people that classify other guests that stay at disney. Guests who choose to stay at the values are looked down upon in many of the threads on these boards. Disney World has nothing to do with this because everyone gets the same type of treatment whether you are staying dvc, deluxe, moderate, or value. Last december my son and I had left Magic Kingdom and were catching the bus to the Swan/Dolphin to wander across the street. This lady that was line at the bus stop kept glancing our way and when I looked back she would just look away, yes lady we were staying at AS Sports not the expensive resort that you chose to stay at. People have such issues with others that it has become very unfriendly.
With the dining plan I have noticed no difference in any service or meals that are being offered to guest alike. My family will be enjoying the free dining promo once again this september- third year in a row.

 

[gina2000]

I think the business trend toward smaller portions and the DDP go hand in hand. The smaller portions may have occurred because of profitability and the DDP was brought online to also increase profitability....attacking the situation from both ends. From what I understand, though, menus were changed immediately prior to and during free dining so it does seem a mite coincidental. Timing is everything in this world and the advent of free dining brought in a new customer base who may not have been able to compare the old Disney dining with the new. Those of us who were TS patrons from the 90s saw an immediate difference.

For the record, I'm not a quantity hound because I know I can't drag a "doggie bag" back to the room nor would I want to. So we always preferred the signature dining restaurants to provide the visual sensation to go along with some great taste combinations. Alot of that has been excluded despite the 2 table credit tab.

9/11 isn't that far removed from my mind. Who do you think supported WDW in the aftermath? The locals, of course. And while I pray and hope we never experience another tragedy of that magnitude, to suggest that there no longer is (and by inference that there never will be) a slow period at WDW is probably erroneous. Afterall, severe economic downturns do and can occur at any time.

 

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

I think there is a class system at disney. But this isn't disney's fault it is the people that classify other guests that stay at disney. Guests who choose to stay at the values are looked down upon in many of the threads on these boards. Disney World has nothing to do with this because everyone gets the same type of treatment whether you are staying dvc, deluxe, moderate, or value. Last december my son and I had left Magic Kingdom and were catching the bus to the Swan/Dolphin to wander across the street. This lady that was line at the bus stop kept glancing our way and when I looked back she would just look away, yes lady we were staying at AS Sports not the expensive resort that you chose to stay at. People have such issues with others that it has become very unfriendly.
With the dining plan I have noticed no difference in any service or meals that are being offered to guest alike. My family will be enjoying the free dining promo once again this september- third year in a row.

Well when you compare the Value, Moderate, Deluxe and DVC Resorts each of them offer their guests different things that other Resorts don't have. For example Deluxe Resorts offer valet parking, room service where as those things are not offered at the Value and Moderate Resorts. So while everyone should be treated the same at WDW no matter where they stay, if you stay at a Value Resort don't complain that guests at the Deluxe Resorts are getting a lot more. They are paying more per night, plus they are paying for ammenties that Deluxe Resorts offer them.

 

[Katiebell]

I'm sorry that so many of you think that people like myself have an elitist attitude or despise the great unwashed. When I'm in a restaurant, I don't even think of people around me, what they're ordering or what it costs them. I think of FOOD.

Not at all. The very few folks with the elitist attitudes are crystal clear about how they feel, and pull no punches about how they feel about us (the out-of-staters and non-frequent visitors who are cluttering up the restaurants ) I haven't seen that in any of your posts that I've read.

 

[apostolic4life]

I think the business trend toward smaller portions and the DDP go hand in hand. The smaller portions may have occurred because of profitability and the DDP was brought online to also increase profitability....attacking the situation from both ends. From what I understand, though, menus were changed immediately prior to and during free dining so it does seem a mite coincidental. Timing is everything in this world and the advent of free dining brought in a new customer base who may not have been able to compare the old Disney dining with the new. Those of us who were TS patrons from the 90s saw an immediate difference.

For the record, I'm not a quantity hound because I know I can't drag a "doggie bag" back to the room nor would I want to. So we always preferred the signature dining restaurants to provide the visual sensation to go along with some great taste combinations. Alot of that has been excluded despite the 2 table credit tab.

9/11 isn't that far removed from my mind. Who do you think supported WDW in the aftermath? The locals, of course. And while I pray and hope we never experience another tragedy of that magnitude, to suggest that there no longer is (and by inference that there never will be) a slow period at WDW is probably erroneous. Afterall, severe economic downturns do and can occur at any time.

Yes, there will always be worse case scenarios that could affect any business. Yes, economic downturns do happen. Yes in these circumstances the businesses will turn to locals to bolster their bottom line. There is a "but" to all this though, most businesses have plans in place in the chance of such an event or downturn and here is the "but": most businesses do not operate day to day based on extreme or remote possibilities. They run on real numbers and business models structured on past revenue and demographics. Currently, that puts the bulk of WDW revenue coming from out of town guests who buy food, stay on property and shop for everything they need or want on property while they are there. Locals who just come for a meal (even if they came every day of the year) make up a miniscule portion of the revenue comparatively. I am not saying it is right for them to ignore the desires of locals except when bad things happen to the company; this strikes me as the locals being taken for granted. I am just saying it is a simple fact that their contribution to the WDW financial picture is not as huge as some like believe during the good times. They are very important in times of downturn though.

As for normal operations (catastrophes and economic downturns aside) WDW plans so many extras to get people in the parks and resorts they really do not have slow times even during "value" seasons. IMHO.

 

[Katiebell]

Well when you compare the Value, Moderate, Deluxe and DVC Resorts each of them offer their guests different things that other Resorts don't have. For example Deluxe Resorts offer valet parking, room service where as those things are not offered at the Value and Moderate Resorts. So while everyone should be treated the same at WDW no matter where they stay, if you stay at a Value Resort don't complain that guests at the Deluxe Resorts are getting a lot more. They are paying more per night, plus they are paying for ammenties that Deluxe Resorts offer them.

We chose not to spend the extra for a Moderate (realistically couldn't afford a Deluxe, we live in CA and have a hefty mortgage payment that sorta takes priority ), because when we vacation at DL, we pretty much use the room to crash for 5-7 hours a night, and don't really make use of the hotel amenities, except maybe the pool a couple of times. We aren't ones to hang around the hotel, even though we choose to stay at the Disneyland Hotel because it's the closest to the parks.

 

[Dreamfinder2]

What should encourage us all is that nothing concerning the DDP is etched in stone. "And it came to pass..." should be an unofficial motto for WDW. My crystal ball is in the shop, but I'd wager that within three years the DDP will only vaguely resemble what it is today. New dining plans will be instituted, embraced, or abandoned. Things just change. I don't think the new smoking policy will revert back, because it's a different issue altogether, but that's irrelevant to me.

We'll be down there in less than two weeks. DD, the Delta Gamma, is taking one of her sorority sisters with us. Anna Kate has never been to WDW. And she will have the time of her life, and will feast (because the girls have been eating school food for months) and be happy. One of the great, purest pleasures of my life is taking "newbies" to WDW and just watching their astonishment, repeated over and over in the course of a day.

I'm trying to think of a change so cataclysmic that I'd sell my DVC and never set foot on the property again. Other than making the parks "nudists only," I think y'all will be seeing me around, riding Space Mountain and eating turkey legs and Dole Whips, for decades to come.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Well then perhaps it's me katiebell is referring to??? But I support the DDP's in theory and have only little issues with restaurant "clutter" ... I think the elitist feeling comes from the fact that many of us just love and value something that others personally don't. Nothing elitist about it.

gina, your posts have been great! You express what I feel a bit more acceptably than I do, I'm afraid.

listergirl, there is no class system at WDW, at least no more than anywhere else. It may exist on the DIS but it is advanced by all sides, IMO.

 

[apostolic4life]

What should encourage us all is that nothing concerning the DDP is etched in stone. "And it came to pass..." should be an unofficial motto for WDW. My crystal ball is in the shop, but I'd wager that within three years the DDP will only vaguely resemble what it is today. New dining plans will be instituted, embraced, or abandoned. Things just change. I don't think the new smoking policy will revert back, because it's a different issue altogether, but that's irrelevant to me.

We'll be down there in less than two weeks. DD, the Delta Gamma, is taking one of her sorority sisters with us. Anna Kate has never been to WDW. And she will have the time of her life, and will feast (because the girls have been eating school food for months) and be happy. One of the great, purest pleasures of my life is taking "newbies" to WDW and just watching their astonishment, repeated over and over in the course of a day.

I'm trying to think of a change so cataclysmic that I'd sell my DVC and never set foot on the property again. Other than making the parks "nudists only," I think y'all will be seeing me around, riding Space Mountain and eating turkey legs and Dole Whips, for decades to come.

Great attitude Dreamfinder2........I like your spirit!

 

[apostolic4life]

Well then perhaps it's me katiebell is referring to??? But I support the DDP's in theory and have only little issues with restaurant "clutter" ... I think the elitist feeling comes from the fact that many of us just love and value something that others personally don't. Nothing elitist about it.

gina, your posts have been great! You express what I feel a bit more acceptably than I do, I'm afraid.

listergirl, there is no class system at WDW, at least no more than anywhere else. It may exist on the DIS but it is advanced by all sides, IMO.

I think you have voiced your side very well PP2.

As for elitists, I think some people fit the bill. Those people tend to attack rather than discuss rationally with other DIS family members.

As for classes, I do not think just because a person can afford to partake of some higher priced amenities defines a class. Some people go all out with the Platinum package, but save for a long time to do it; it's not because they are a different class, it is because they value certain things differently than you or I. So I agree that classes are non-existent.

 

[Katiebell]

Well then perhaps it's me katiebell is referring to??? But I support the DDP's in theory and have only little issues with restaurant "clutter" ... I think the elitist feeling comes from the fact that many of us just love and value something that others personally don't. Nothing elitist about it.

No, no, no.....before this becomes a "who's the mystery elitist?" guessing game I'm not referring to this thread in particular, I'm talking about posts in general that I've read on this topic on the DIS boards since I started planning my trip in January of this year. Obviously, others have read these types of posts as well, as they have commented on them. And some of those posts have been extremely unkind and unfair.

I agree, Dreamfinder2, I think the DDP will continue to evolve, and may become extinct. The new rumor (that sounds pretty reliable, since CM's are the one telling us) that Disney is going to drop the included gratuity while not decreasing the price of the plan...I think that will have a much greater impact than people realize. Not only will guests have to pay OOP for tips (inconvenience), servers may get shorted by people who don't realize the tip is no longer included, or who come from a place where tipping isn't customary and they don't realize it's a major part of the server's wage. Fair tips on extravagant 3 course meals can run pretty high, and I think guests will start reading menus more carefully, perhaps ordering less expensive items and forgoing the appetizer or the dessert if they really aren't hungry enough to eat the whole thing, maybe just ordering a couple for the whole table instead of one per person -- because why pay a high tip for all that expensive food you don't really need -- even if you can order it? Think of all the people that have said they wanted to skip dessert, but the server insisted they take something because "it's included". So...people will start ordering more as if they were paying OOP, which will further decrease the value and appeal of the dining plan.

 

[fey_spirit]

You know I might be willing to conceed this point except the reality is that this pov is extremly narrow. It fails to take into consideration that cuts are being made in every department and every area across the parks, irregaurdless of whether they are connected to the DDP.

DDP doesn't pay for the adult beverages at resorts, but I have heard tell that those have also become highly homgonized, losing popular drinks from the menus that were once highlights and resort specalities that made them signatures of those resorts. That doesn't have anything to do with the DDP.

They have continued to raise the price of party tickets, but chipped away at the proffered quality of offerings that go with the Christmas Party - also has nothing to do with the DDP.

The money they obviously aren't paying to keep the parks as immaculate as they once did, the cuts in imagineering... and on and on and on... all having nothing to do with the DDP.

The fact is that given all of this, we can't know that these changes wouldn't have taken place regaurdless of the DDP. With or without the DDP the changes that have been made would have made food production cheaper - and more "efficent" - which seems to be the new battle cry of Dis execs.

It's possible that the DDP had an impact upon these changes to the dineing, but it's also possible that these changes would have happened anyway and while it may seem obvious on first glance that the DDP is at the root of it. However, if you pull back and look at the big picture you begin to realize that the DDP may in fact have as much to do with these changes as Ice Cream does with Violent Crimes...

I don't understand the ridiculous notion that people couldn't afford to eat at WDW before, but they CAN shell out tons of money upfront for the DDP all while paying RACK RATE for their rooms.

It's crystal clear to me that the DDP has dragged down WDW dining in the past couple of years. As someone who has eaten there on a regular basis over the past 30 years, I know what I'm talking about.

All the nice touches are disappearing from WDW dining. All the high quality foods are disappearing. The ability to get into a restaurant without planning six months in advance is disappearing.

Why should I refrain from bashing something that is RUINING a formerly terrific experience?

 

[Sammie]

I don't understand the ridiculous notion that people couldn't afford to eat at WDW before, but they CAN shell out tons of money upfront for the DDP all while paying RACK RATE for their rooms

I don't see why it is hard to understand. Many that go to Disney and stay in the Value resorts pay rack rate. These are guests who do not frequent forums such as this one or others and more than likely get no discount on their rooms, expect possibly AAA.

However they do see the mass marketing that Disney does for the DDP and thier other promotions.

Prior to the DDP, many of these guests did not eat any Table Service meals at all their entire stay. They might have even eaten only one CS per day. They brought food with them from home, and ate in thier rooms. They brought toasters and even microwaves to cook on in their rooms.

Now with the DDP, many of these guests can afford to eat out and especially during free dining.