My Rant on tipping

[tloft]

It is only more expensive to eat over there for us...because of the exchange rate. I have been over many times and I know this to be true. You cannot have a true analogy if your numbers are skewed. You would have to assume the dollar and euro where equal before you could argue the price difference.

"According to the new Zagat guide, the average price of a nice dinner out in London will run you far more than one in any other large city around the world. The average three course meal and a glass of wine costs £39.09, or about USD$79.38. Comparatively, it's $71.82 in Paris, $71.28 in Tokyo, $39.19 in New York City, and $31.74 in Los Angeles.

Not surprisingly, Londoners eat out less than those in other more sensibly priced cities. Londoners eat out just 2.5 times per week, compared to 2.9 in Paris, 3.6 in New York, and every other day in Tokyo."

 

[TLSnell1981]

"According to the new Zagat guide, the average price of a nice dinner out in London will run you far more than one in any other large city around the world. The average three course meal and a glass of wine costs £39.09, or about USD$79.38. Comparatively, it's $71.82 in Paris, $71.28 in Tokyo, $39.19 in New York City, and $31.74 in Los Angeles.

Not surprisingly, Londoners eat out less than those in other more sensibly priced cities. Londoners eat out just 2.5 times per week, compared to 2.9 in Paris, 3.6 in New York, and every other day in Tokyo."

As a PP stated, you are quoting books and not reality.

 

[sjaakie]

As a PP stated, you are quoting books and not reality.

Reality is always diffrent than bookwisdom.

 

[tloft]

I would argue that just because it is what you two believe or even have experienced that it doesn't make it "reality" for everyone else.

With the example of the Chili's restaurant, not adjusting for the currency exchange, the price was still 30% higher. But you have to adjust the currency and after making such adjustment it is even much more expensive over there. No matter what the whys and hows, in US dollars in is more expensive over there than here. By your real work logic food in Mexico should cost 90% less than here since that is the exchange rate. Doesn't work that way.

I'm sorry that you believe using objective data is somehow less reliable than what strangers on a message board claim to be the truth. It is also a way to escape the he said / she said factor that makes most of these discussions so pointless.

 

[anabelle]

The math is accurate, it just isn't apples to apples. I certainly understand that there are different overheads in each situation but the general point is that it is far more expensive to eat over there than over here.

Of course the currency exchange inflates the cost but should food diminish price dramatically in cost in places with a favorable exchange rate? In Leon, Mexico, a place I have actually been, the same chain charges 179 Mexican Pesos for a rib platter. That converts to $16.11. The same thing here is $14.99. So, I still stand by the point that comparably speaking it is inexpensive to dine here and the gratuity system suits me fine.

BTW my parents live in Leon....
Anyway, my dad still tips in Leon. He is an American Expatriate, so he earns dollars. People who live in Leon don't make the kind of money we do. They might make $25K dollars if you are an engineer or lawyer.

 

[tloft]

Okay - you are obviously going to make me work very hard at this. I used currency rates from http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html.
Under their historical rates they have 19 years of info. The 19 year average exchange rate for the dollar to the british pund is 1 dollar to .59 pound. The conversion currently sits at 1 dollar to .50 pound. So when you argue that the cause of the price difference is solely the currency conversion due to the weak dollar then it is only fair to look at the difference between today's historically weak dollar - because the markets haven't had time to flush things out. Either inflation will rise in the US or the dollar will rise - there isn't much middle ground. So, using the 19 year average rate of 1 to .59 pound, which is admittedly a fairer comparison, my $7.29 chicken sandwich which costs 9.45 pound would have a cost to me of $16.02 a more modest cost increase to me of 119%. Or if you still don't like the comparison lets use the 19 year high of 1 dollar to .69 pound in 2002. This would yield a real cost to me of $13.69 and a increase to me of 88%. In any of those scenarios I wold just assume keep things the way they are.

One last point about currency exchanges. An Apple 80 GB iPod video classic at Amazon.uk is 148.90 pound. The same iPod at Amazon.com (US) is $249.00. This exchanges to $285.43 in the UK and $249 in the US. This is a cost increase of $36.43 or a percentage difference of 18% the US price. Well, the US dollar is exactly 18% off of its average against the pound of the last 19 years. Weakness in the dollar does not fully explain the dramatic cost difference in dining out.

 

[tloft]

BTW my parents live in Leon....
Anyway, my dad still tips in Leon. He is an American Expatriate, so he earns dollars. People who live in Leon don't make the kind of money we do. They might make $25K dollars if you are an engineer or lawyer.

I attended a wedding there last year - it was a beautiful place and we had a blast.

 

[bicker]

tloft does a have a point. Very often what people claim or even believe is true, based even on their own personal experience, turns out out to not be an accurate depiction of reality.

 

[sjaakie]

tloft does a have a point. Very often what people claim or even believe is true, based even on their own personal experience, turns out out to not be an accurate depiction of reality.

This is what I read over Florida
Is it thru? Ofcourse not, its book and newspaperwisdom and far from reality.

But as you say it could be the thruth because it is written so it must be thru.


It's open season on tourists in Florida.

Until just recently, Florida was called the Sunshine State and was on its way to being the vacation capital of the world. Now it's called the murder capital of America, a place where even visitors from Bosnia should fear to tread.

"Gunned Down Like Animals!" ran one British tabloid headline. "Shot Like a Dog," "Come to Sunny Florida and be Murdered for Absolutely Nothing," "Slaughter in the Sunshine" and "Plan Your Trip Like a Commando Raid" screamed others. Similarly, a Philadelphia Daily News headline blared: "Another foreign tourist is slain. And the Sunshine State becomes a STATE OF TERROR."

 

[KevGuy]

Wow, bicker over 27k post lol!! Hey I work in Burlington at Lahey.

As for tipping, I usually give 15% as a rule, then if the service is great 20%. If it is totally horrible and a series of problems then I have been known to leave 1 red cent, which to my knowledge is basically an insult. I think I have done that twice in my life. On our last trip to Disney we had excellent or better service on probably half our ADR's and we used the DDP which had the 18% built in last year. On those I usually left an extra $5-10. One in particular was astounding service at the AK at Donalds Breakfastosaurus place, the old one in dino land. We had a server there named Neil from NY who was amazing, had us all in hysterics included me and the wife as well as kids in kidding around and made sure to "make" me and the wife get up and have our own pictures he took for us with the characters with our camera. Probably the best service I have ever had. I slipped him a $10 as we left while we were giving each other a ribbing over baseball. (A NY/Boston thing lol) As we entered the park the wife says to me I hope you gave him at least $10 I said yes, she says good so did I lol. I can't remember having that much fun at a meal out. It was well worth the $20 + 18%, because of the memory of that morning and my kids still talk about it a year later as we prepare to head back in a couple of months. And yes, we will be doing that ADR again per my kids. So that just goes to show you that if you provide excellent service it will go rewarded if you run into us. But if need be I will put down
$.01 if warrented as well and service is an abomination. You get what you deserve is how I see it.

Despite the lack of convience I see the paying of tips separately as a good thing with the DDP. I did feel we were treated differently at least once last year because we were on the DDP because the server dissapeared and never once asked how we were doing or refilled drinks etc. That person still got their 18%, and I was not happy about that. I would have lowered to perhaps 10% given the way the plan is this year.

 

[JimMIA]

This is what I read over Florida
Is it thru? Ofcourse not, its book and newspaperwisdom and far from reality.

But as you say it could be the thruth because it is written so it must be thru.


It's open season on tourists in Florida.

Until just recently, Florida was called the Sunshine State and was on its way to being the vacation capital of the world. Now it's called the murder capital of America, a place where even visitors from Bosnia should fear to tread.

"Gunned Down Like Animals!" ran one British tabloid headline. "Shot Like a Dog," "Come to Sunny Florida and be Murdered for Absolutely Nothing," "Slaughter in the Sunshine" and "Plan Your Trip Like a Commando Raid" screamed others. Similarly, a Philadelphia Daily News headline blared: "Another foreign tourist is slain. And the Sunshine State becomes a STATE OF TERROR."

You must be reading some 20 year old newspapers. Miami Vice was a long time ago. And it was fiction.

 

[RllngRckBrw]

I am a big tipper when you do a good job. I once left a $50 tip on top of the DDP tip 2 years ago because the waiter at the Coral Reef was charasmatic, and extremely plesent and helpful. I know that at times (especailly when being dehydrated in the park all day) I can be a pain asking for refills on my water, but this man went above and beoynd he always made sure it was filled and even brought 2 at a time for most of the meal. He did a great job of making us feel comfortable and did everything in his power to satisy what we needed.

On the flip side of this I have left resturants where the wait staff got nothing because of their attitude or terrible service. This may make me sound crazy but I once opened up the door to the kitchen to interupt their "break" because I had waited for 20 min and not seen a waiter even though I could hear them taking in the kitchen about nothing.

Anyway the point I am trying to get to is this. To me a tip is a matter of showing your appreciation/lack there of to the waiter/waitress. It should be a reflection of his/her performance, and so you can not hold the food quality against them (unless it is something extremely noticable visually). I agree that you should say something but that does not need to be reflected in the ammount of your tip.

 

[bicker]

Wow, bicker over 27k post lol!!

Some of us have been here since the beginning.

Hey I work in Burlington at Lahey.

Neat.

 

[tloft]

This is what I read over Florida
Is it thru? Ofcourse not, its book and newspaperwisdom and far from reality.

But as you say it could be the thruth because it is written so it must be thru.


It's open season on tourists in Florida.

Until just recently, Florida was called the Sunshine State and was on its way to being the vacation capital of the world. Now it's called the murder capital of America, a place where even visitors from Bosnia should fear to tread.

"Gunned Down Like Animals!" ran one British tabloid headline. "Shot Like a Dog," "Come to Sunny Florida and be Murdered for Absolutely Nothing," "Slaughter in the Sunshine" and "Plan Your Trip Like a Commando Raid" screamed others. Similarly, a Philadelphia Daily News headline blared: "Another foreign tourist is slain. And the Sunshine State becomes a STATE OF TERROR."

If they are talking about Miami I have no trouble believing those are current headlines.

However, I have gone to great length to provide citations for all my quotes. You didn't provide any. How is what you say on a website supposed to be more credible than what anyone else says - even quotes from books (which apparently you have some distinct distrust of). Maybe the cultural gap is part of the problem but Frommers, Fodors, and Zagats are highly respectable authorities in their field. Just about anything you read or hear anywhere should be taken with a grain of salt. You can only begin to discern a "truth" if you are open to receiving input from all angles and placing them in their proper context over time. We all know Fox News has one bias and that CNN has another bias, but that doesn't not mean nothing they say is true. Anyway, I think the cummulative knowledge of those three publications has to hold some validity.

As to tipping where you are from you obviously hold so dilligently to your position because of your experience. But what is your experience exactly. From what I can tell you don't believe you need to tip anybody anywhere in Europe; therefore you don't tip anyone. Simply because you are able to do so (not tip) apparently reinforces your opinion that it is in fact appropriate not to tip. However, that doesn't mean you haven't left plenty of angry servers in your wake. It just means you have left no tip with a clear conscience.

I could do the same thing here in the U.S. I could decide tomorrow that I will no longer tip anyone. And if I am the average consumer eating out only a couple times a week at a variety of places I will get away with it. I will probably rarely if ever run into the same server twice and no one will ever inform me that I not doing something I should. Managers don't chase people into the parking lot often over not leaving a tip (although I have seen it done). Eventually I start going on websites saying that people who tip are ignorant because I never tip and it never causes a problem and that since that is my experience it is more valid than what all these "books" and websites say on the matter.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Of course, tour books are biased. Many places comp the writers and some actually pay to be in the books. You obviously want to discount life experience, but there are many nice places with excellent fare that are not expensive.

I also thought the original point you were trying to make was how well the service staff should be paid because of the HUGE pricing difference between the states and across the pond. You were also making the point of the IPOD being 36 GBP. Unless it has changed...the tax is included in their prices....kind of like how the grat used to be included in the DDP.

 

[tloft]

Of course, tour books are biased. Many places comp the writers and some actually pay to be in the books. You obviously want to discount life experience, but there are many nice places with excellent fare that are not expensive.

I also thought the original point you were trying to make was how well the service staff should be paid because of the HUGE pricing difference between the states and across the pond. You were also making the point of the IPOD being 36 GBP. Unless it has changed...the tax is included in their prices....kind of like how the grat used to be included in the DDP.

I never disputed that they can be biased but taken as whole you can begin to gain useful information. If all three recommend a restaurant it is very unlikely to be disappointing - but even a five star restaurant can have a bad night. Fromers focuses on budget travel and is a great resource with fact based recommendations about price and very matter of fact reviews about the nature of accomodations. Even when not being directly influenced by free meals every writer has their own personal bias as to what they like or don't like. Read enough, however, and you can begin to discern whoevers opinions mirror your own. And, as to why I brought them up in the first place, they all acknowlege some form of tipping throughout Western Europe. Unlike a free meal biasing a reviewer they have no reason to say this unless it is true in their experiences (unless there is a european waiters union lobbying U.S. publications to trick ignorant American who continue to waste their time reading). Since nothing we are talking about is actually law it is still just opinions but I prefer the cummulative advice of hundreds of travel writers over two people on a disney forum.

I am not discounting life experience and yes I have no doubt that, just as in the U.S., there are hidden gems the world over that are affordable - I have no idea what that comment had to do with any of the previous discussion.

It was asked in this thread why we don't use a European, all inclusive style of pricing in our restaurants. This same sentiment has been echoed in several other threads. People in this and other threads have also been concerned that 18% is too high an auto gratuity and that auto gratuity/fixed pay reduces service quality. The only point I have tried to make is that the European system doesn't alleviate any of the latter problem because throughout most of Europe waiters do make a living wage, whether through service charges distributed much like gratuities here or in regular salaries and that as evidenced by actual prices the cost of dining out in these countries, ON AVERAGE, is substantially (way more the 15-20% we're asked to tip here) costlier than it is here. So, in this system, you are paying through the price of the meal for the service, but cannot diminish your tip when service suffers. AND, for those who seem to get so worked up about what percentages are really appropriate - even in supposedly service compris places - these same debates rage on as people continue to give (albeit smaller than 18%) extra gratuity.

I don't really know what your last point about the ipod is supposed to mean. It is a mail order site and I don't ever pay tax on my purchases in the states either, so it is apples to apples. Even if I did that doesn't do much to make up the difference. You quickly dismissed a price increase in excess of 100%as being mearly a matter of currency exchange. If this was the case it should carry over to other products as well. You also chose to ignore that your notion doesn't work in reverse - as in the example from Mexico.

Basically every example I give you essentially say "doesn't count" but then don't give any examples to actually refute them.

 

[TLSnell1981]

One last point about currency exchanges. An Apple 80 GB iPod video classic at Amazon.uk is 148.90 pound. The same iPod at Amazon.com (US) is $249.00. This exchanges to $285.43 in the UK and $249 in the US. This is a cost increase of $36.43 or a percentage difference of 18% the US price. Well, the US dollar is exactly 18% off of its average against the pound of the last 19 years. Weakness in the dollar does not fully explain the dramatic cost difference in dining out.

I was referring to the price difference of $36.43 is likely the VAT.....value added tax ....that is included in prices in the UK and Europe.

 

[tloft]

I was referring to the price difference of $36.43 is likely the VAT.....value added tax ....that is included in prices in the UK and Europe.

Well its tax included in both for this example. My point with this was that if currency exchange was the primary reason for restaurant dining being in excess of 100% more expensive than in the US then it should carry over to other goods - but it doesn't.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Why do you think the DDP is so loved by us
For what the DDLXP costs you can't have one decent diner in Holland let alone have breakfast and a counterservice to.

I remember the days things were reversed.....oh those were the days! My daughter wants to be married in Italy, but with the exchange rate...don't think that's going to happen. Can't we compromise on this rate thing? Let the euro and the dollar be a "little" more equal? I haven't been over since the euro was $1.30.....I want to go back! Sorry I'm OT.

 

[sjaakie]

I remember the days things were reversed.....oh those were the days! My daughter wants to be married in Italy, but with the exchange rate...don't think that's going to happen. Can't we compromise on this rate thing? Let the euro and the dollar be a "little" more equal? I haven't been over since the euro was $1.30.....I want to go back! Sorry I'm OT.

You don't have to read books to know that the Dollar/ Euro difference is very bad for both our continents.
O sure in the short time view of tourist its great but this will be a huge problem in the future if it lasts.

Hope your daughter will have a wonderful wedding in Venice I suppose?

But now BOT and back to them poor waiters.