WWYD? Update!

[ronandannette]

Do you mean Alternative? Complimentary usually means practices in addition to traditional medicine. Alternative means a different type, oftentimes controversial. Going to Vienna sounds like Alternative. And I don't blame him if he's not being given any hope and that's the road he wishes to pursue. It would be nice to have a crystal ball, but none of us do. He may have a hard time believing this is happening if he doesn't feel sick. Ultimately it's up to every individual how they want to handle it. I continue to pray for him. Thanks for the update.

They're specifically using the term complimentary and from the (very) little I know, it's because those holistic practices are extremely common and used hand-in-glove with conventional medicine in Europe and perhaps many other places. I agree that to our sensibilities it sounds startling but it would seem we North Americans are at the far-other end of the spectrum in our acceptance of such things. For better or worse, I've not personally ever had to try and evaluate the veracity of either complimentary or alternative treatments; where would you even start? Heck, I'm daunted by just trying to buy a bottle of vitamins at the natural foods store.

 

[disykat]

Part of me wants to vote have time to say goodbye and get things in order. It seems so much tidier.

However, my FIL dropped dead unexpectedly at 73 last year. My dad is 87 and 13 years into health decline and Alzheimer's. Having seen both, I'd definitely choose unexpected. My DH has said many times over this last year that, as hard as it was to lose his dad that way, what all of us are going through with my dad is worse.

I suppose learning of terminal illness and dying after a BRIEF time is an ideal way to go, but I don't think many people get that "not too much suffering" option.

 

[ronandannette]

Part of me wants to vote have time to say goodbye and get things in order. It seems so much tidier.

However, my FIL dropped dead unexpectedly at 73 last year. My dad is 87 and 13 years into health decline and Alzheimer's. Having seen both, I'd definitely choose unexpected. My DH has said many times over this last year that, as hard as it was to lose his dad that way, what all of us are going through with my dad is worse.

I suppose learning of terminal illness and dying after a BRIEF time is an ideal way to go, but I don't think many people get that "not too much suffering" option.

I can't imagine anybody who has walked through this with a loved one not agreeing. That "long goodbye" is the ultimate heartbreak and outrage.

 

[fhtpdw20]

Tomorrow being the third anniversary of DH passing from cancer, it is hard to say. We had a good year and half after diagnosis and chemo treatments, then a rotten six months to the end. I think what kept him hanging on was our son getting married. He was gone two weeks later. It was good to have the time to get things in order and he had the time to do a few things he wanted to do before he went into decline. You can prepare your head but not your heart. As for myself, if I find I am in the position to choose, quick would be the way to go as I have done everything I can to tie up finance/passwords ect... But if I am ever diagnosed with cancer, I will not seek any treatment other than pain management. Once cancer is in your body, it is like whack a mole. You never know when and where it will pop up next.

 

[neverlandsky]

Don't care either way, just don't want to suffer and be in pain.

 

[LSUmiss]

We got the shocking and heartbreaking news yesterday that one of our dear friends and beloved pillars of our community has unexpectedly been diagnosed with end-stage pancreatic cancer. It was discovered (as apparently it often is) during a physical when the doctor palpitated his abdomen and felt a mass on the liver. He had seen the doctor for minor, generalized malaise and is otherwise asymptomatic. He has been told this will change rapidly and the prognosis is death in as little as a month. He was basically told to leave the oncologist's office and prepare to go into hospice. Surreal - absolutely surreal.

The question is this: If you were presented with similar circumstances, how would you spend the little time you have left? Would you be grateful to have this chance, or would it be preferable to just drop dead in your tracks? And if your were the family or friends - how would you handle it? He's got a devoted wife and two young adult daughters who are seemingly in shock; not falling apart just yet but it's bound to happen. (ETA: They are devout Christians and do not fear death, but that doesn't minimize grief and the pain of loss.)

There are a multitude of us all standing by trying to figure out what to do to be helpful. Many of us have spent hours together weeping and praying and not a one hasn't thought about what we would be doing if it were us. WWYD?

My dad died a month after suddenly finding out he had pancreatic cancer. It was similar to this story. It was absolutely horrific for him & our family. It wasn’t just the cancer & the pain but watching him face imminent death. I chose other b/c dying suddenly would have been tragic too. I have a friend who also had cancer & knew the prognosis wasn’t good, but he lived 2 years. I know there is never enough time, but it’s certainly more than a month & he got to enjoy life knowing it would be shorter than expected. He didn’t suffer until the very end so it was 2 years of enjoying his life to the fullest.

 

[CF'er]

Having lost two dear sister's-in-law in the span of just over a year apart I can say that I want to know. The first to go was after a protracted battle with stage 4 breast cancer. We knew she was end-stage but wasn't expecting our last visit to be our last. I did however tell her what I wanted her to know and hugged her extra hard and long. I will forever remember that. The second we knew had lung cancer. Attended an out of state wedding the beginning of the month. About 3 weeks later got a call that she had been hospitalized (10 days) and that they were recommending hospice. Saw her that next day. Didn't realize that would be our "last" conversation. By Friday she was pretty out of it in hospice and she passed Monday. For her I am glad that her suffering was short. For those left that had no clue we still feel the sting. I don't want to do that to my friends and family if at all possible.

 

[BLAZEY]

Sorry to hear about you friend. DH's Granddad drove himself to the hospital after going to to have a swallowing issue looked at. That was the end of November, he passed of esophageal cancer on Christmas Eve. It was hard to watch him go from such strong man to one so weak in less than a month. Watching someone you love wither away is horrible.

I want to go quick without suffering. A heart attack in my sleep.

 

[ofcabbagesandkings]

OP, so sorry about your friend. My mom’s grandfather died of a brain aneurysm one day walking home. Her mother was at a restaurant down the street and they ran over to get her. Mom’s always said that would be her preferred way. She’s since lost 2 siblings and her mom to cancer. Her sister in particular was a year long battle where she was on chemo just hoping to buy a little more time, but it was terrible. My FIL just lost his close friend a year after his diagnosis, he travelled across the country trying experimental and painful treatments to no avail. I don’t know. I would love to be able to say goodbye to my children. But I don’t want them to suffer having to watch me waste away either.

 

[Music City Mama]

Thanks for asking - this is such a heavy burden on our hearts and we're all on pins-and-needles. Firstly, he and his family are being held in constant prayer by countless people all over the world and that is sustaining them in amazing ways.

I'm not sure how much you know about the Canadian medical system, but due to the way it works, even the most dire cases face waits for diagnostic procedures and treatments that you might find mind-bending. After his initial diagnosis he needed an MRI to determine the exact progression and from the time of my first post, it's taken until yesterday to get the results of that. His tumor is in the "tail" of the pancreas, which is rarer and produces far fewer symptoms that other kinds. The cancer has metastasized throughout his entire liver (innumerable is the word they used to describe the tumors there) and one lung. There are no viable treatment options other than comfort measures, which blessedly, are abundantly available through our superb network of palliative care facilities. Liver failure is imminent - like hold your breath, any second now - imminent, and once that kicks in his life-expectancy is days, or weeks at most. At this time he is still basically asymptomatic, which is a marvel and a surprise to the doctors.

While waiting for oncological care they have been consulting complementary medicine practitioners, something that's readily available here on a pay-as-you-go basis. I know very little about it (as do most of us in North America) but there are apparently many cancer-care protocols widely practiced in Europe that hold some promise. He has been accepted into a treatment program at (what is apparently) a prestigious clinic in Vienna, if they can make it there and come up with the funds. It's a tough, tough decision for them and honestly, I don't know what I'd do if it were me.

In the meantime, we're all rallied around providing whatever practical help we can, trying to figure out how to "be" with him - how to act, what to say, how to keep focus on the fact that he's not dead yet, even though we all began grieving 2 weeks ago. Again, thanks for asking - this may be more of an update than you were interested in, but processing it like this has been cathartic.

Awww, I can tell how distraught you are. I know you said that he is basically asymptomatic, but based on what happened with my mom (and other stories I've read), the symptoms really start almost overnight... I was talking to my DH about it the other day... how one day she said she felt completely 100% like herself, to a few days later saying she was filling up kind of quickly when she ate, to she only wants to eat soup, to she only wants to drink, etc. Amazing that she was never in any pain during all of it (but sadly, very coherent that she was facing death very soon). Sending your friend, his family and friends positive thoughts during this difficult journey.

 

[leebee]

It's hard to say. When we were in our early 30s, my best friend was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, in November. She was alive until the end of August. Note that I don't say she "lived" until the end of August, because much of what she was doing was simply existing. She had a couple of good months in there, but most of the time was spent having chemo, battling the effects of the chemo, battling the effects of cancer, and somehow trying to survive through the awful, endless pain. This was 30 years ago, and I know that treatments have improved, but she lived in constant pain for the last 6 weeks, to the point where they hospitalized her to basically keep her semi-conscious so she wasn't in as much pain. It was awful, but during the times when she was "well" we had the most amazing conversations. These times were a gift to me, although much of the time was agonizing for her. I still miss her dearly, and there isn't a week that goes by that I don't still think of her.

My father died when I was 13. He'd been sick with a cold, or so we thought. He awoke one day at 2am, gasping and struggling to breathe. My mom took him to the ER around 3am where they admitted him. She came home around 6am to start getting us (4 kids, I was the oldest) ready for the day. The hospital called at 8am to say my dad had died. It turns out he had widespread cancer, and we (and we believe, he) never knew. This was back in 1970, so we never learned what kind of cancer, but it was in his kidney, liver, stomach, and lung. I'm glad he didn't suffer and went quickly, BUT it was hell for my mother. She was left alone with 4 kids (youngest one with cerebral palsy, so special needs), was a homemaker, with no idea what bank held the mortgage or the car loan, no idea of how to manage the finances or anything. My dad handled all that, as was typical back then. If he'd/we'd only known how sick he was, there would have been some time for my mom to learn how to manage our home and take care of everything. As it was, the grief and confusion almost folded her. Thank goodness for my very solid uncle and aunt, who made sure we all made it through those first few years with our home intact, food on the table, and learning how to manage in a new life.

SO... as I said, I'm torn...

 

[ronandannette]

It's hard to say. When we were in our early 30s, my best friend was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, in November. She was alive until the end of August. Note that I don't say she "lived" until the end of August, because much of what she was doing was simply existing. She had a couple of good months in there, but most of the time was spent having chemo, battling the effects of the chemo, battling the effects of cancer, and somehow trying to survive through the awful, endless pain. This was 30 years ago, and I know that treatments have improved, but she lived in constant pain for the last 6 weeks, to the point where they hospitalized her to basically keep her semi-conscious so she wasn't in as much pain. It was awful, but during the times when she was "well" we had the most amazing conversations. These times were a gift to me, although much of the time was agonizing for her. I still miss her dearly, and there isn't a week that goes by that I don't still think of her.

My father died when I was 13. He'd been sick with a cold, or so we thought. He awoke one day at 2am, gasping and struggling to breathe. My mom took him to the ER around 3am where they admitted him. She came home around 6am to start getting us (4 kids, I was the oldest) ready for the day. The hospital called at 8am to say my dad had died. It turns out he had widespread cancer, and we (and we believe, he) never knew. This was back in 1970, so we never learned what kind of cancer, but it was in his kidney, liver, stomach, and lung. I'm glad he didn't suffer and went quickly, BUT it was hell for my mother. She was left alone with 4 kids (youngest one with cerebral palsy, so special needs), was a homemaker, with no idea what bank held the mortgage or the car loan, no idea of how to manage the finances or anything. My dad handled all that, as was typical back then. If he'd/we'd only known how sick he was, there would have been some time for my mom to learn how to manage our home and take care of everything. As it was, the grief and confusion almost folded her. Thank goodness for my very solid uncle and aunt, who made sure we all made it through those first few years with our home intact, food on the table, and learning how to manage in a new life.

SO... as I said, I'm torn...

Both very tough scenarios, to be sure. One thing I have learned is that if I was diagnosed with cancer, unless the prognosis for treatment was very, very positive, I'd have a hard time deciding what to do. I've seldom known of anyone who didn't suffer tremendously through surgery, chemo and radiation and frankly, most of the time they die anyway, without even necessarily having prolonged their lives. My own brother declined treatment for Stage IV lung cancer and ended up having 17 good months and 4 bad weeks. Somehow, that just seems better.

 

[leebee]

Both very tough scenarios, to be sure. One thing I have learned is that if I was diagnosed with cancer, unless the prognosis for treatment was very, very positive, I'd have a hard time deciding what to do. I've seldom known of anyone who didn't suffer tremendously through surgery, chemo and radiation and frankly, most of the time they die anyway, without even necessarily having prolonged their lives. My own brother declined treatment for Stage IV lung cancer and ended up having 17 good months and 4 bad weeks. Somehow, that just seems better.

I "liked" your post, but only to say "I agree" not that I like the situation. My BIL passed away from lung cancer. Broke his femur in Nov, diagnosed in Feb, died the beginning of June. He pretty much refused treatment- he was bedridden as it was, it was metastasized everywhere ("mets to the bone" is never a good phrase), and he decided he just wanted to live out his remaining days with his cat, his music, his family. He wasn't at home, but in a hospice house where they kept him comfortable. Nobody was happy, but he wasn't suffering and miserable for his remaining days. I miss him.

 

[PollyannaMom]

She was left alone with 4 kids (youngest one with cerebral palsy, so special needs), was a homemaker, with no idea what bank held the mortgage or the car loan, no idea of how to manage the finances or anything. My dad handled all that, as was typical back then. If he'd/we'd only known how sick he was, there would have been some time for my mom to learn how to manage our home and take care of everything. As it was, the grief and confusion almost folded her. Thank goodness for my very solid uncle and aunt, who made sure we all made it through those first few years with our home intact, food on the table, and learning how to manage in a new life.

Didn't want to just "like" your post, as you said above, but so glad you had family who stepped in!

 

[fortwildernessishome]

My 54 year old dad, in 2001, was being treated for back pain. He was working full time and had a car accident a few years prior that they thought was the cause of the back pain. On lots of Ibuprofen, he was getting worse. He went back to DR who did a chest Xray but still kept treating for back strain. He got worse and worse and was starting to be unable to work or do anything so he called his DR again. DR said "oh, let me look at your chest Xray from 2 weeks ago"...."uh oh, there's a mass". (Yep, the DR didn't even bother to look at it for 2 weeks). My dad then went for a CT-scan (or MRI or whatever) and was diagnosed, on Dec 19th, with stage 4 cancer in his lungs, spine and liver (they had him go for biopsy, why put him through that...I don't know...but it turned out to be lung cancer). He went into the hospital on Dec 26 and passed away on the 31st. Just 12 days. While that was some of the hardest 12 days of my life, my mom's life, my brother's life and my dad's life...it was much better (if you can say 'better' in a situation like this) than my SIL had with her FIL fighting cancer for 3 years. Though my dad was in a bit of a state of panic those last days in the hospital, knowing the end was near. He fought it and did NOT want to go. So, even better would be the 90-something year old who has had dementia for several years and passes in her sleep (like my DH's grandma). Nope, I don't want to know my time is limited. Nope...nope...nope. For the person dying- themselves- quick is better...but for us left behind, yes, having time to say goodbye is better.

So sorry to read about your Dad. I have a similar story, with a few differences. My 61 year old Dad, who had always led a healthy and active life, was having back pain that kept getting worse. He went to the Dr. multiple times over a six week period and each time was given harmless diagnosis's. Finally he was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. What a shock, as he never smoked! He died 17 days after being diagnosed. He passed 13 years ago, and even now, it is still shocking to me how fast he went. Just two months prior we all did a family trip to Disney. We were together for two weeks and we never saw a hint of any illness, not even a cough! A month before he died, he walked into my house with a TV on his shoulder for my sons Birthday!


Last year our 50 year old brother in law dropped dead of a heart attack at work. its been a tough year, as he and my sister in law have young children.


OP, sorry to read about your friend......life is so unfair sometimes.

 

[lovin'fl]

So sorry to read about your Dad. I have a similar story, with a few differences. My 61 year old Dad, who had always led a healthy and active life, was having back pain that kept getting worse. He went to the Dr. multiple times over a six week period and each time was given harmless diagnosis's. Finally he was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. What a shock, as he never smoked! He died 17 days after being diagnosed. He passed 13 years ago, and even now, it is still shocking to me how fast he went. Just two months prior we all did a family trip to Disney. We were together for two weeks and we never saw a hint of any illness, not even a cough! A month before he died, he walked into my house with a TV on his shoulder for my sons Birthday!


Last year our 50 year old brother in law dropped dead of a heart attack at work. its been a tough year, as he and my sister in law have young children.


OP, sorry to read about your friend......life is so unfair sometimes.

Wow, your dad wasn't even a smoker. My dad had smoked since he was like 16. The Big C is a Big B though. Sorry, also about your BIL. Way way too young and heartbreaking for his kids. You just never know when you'll draw that short straw, do you. Best to live each day as if it may be the last.

 

[ronandannette]

Well, our friend and his wife have rolled the dice and arrived in Vienna this morning. While they have nothing (health-wise) to lose in trying, the hard decision was to risk travelling overseas and not being able to get back if his condition declines as rapidly as has been predicted. What tipped the scales is the fact that about $50,000 was raised in three days and a benefactor provided the flights. I don't know that I'd have made the same decision but we continue to pray...

He has already been admitted to hospital and is in the process of having biopsies and imaging done to evaluate his suitability for treatment. They (and we, based on their reports) are completely gobsmacked at how quickly things can move in a fee-for-service system. He's undergone more procedures and consulted with more doctors in the last 4 hours than he did in the last 4 weeks here at home.

 

[Music City Mama]

Well, our friend and his wife have rolled the dice and arrived in Vienna this morning. While they have nothing (health-wise) to lose in trying, the hard decision was to risk travelling overseas and not being able to get back if his condition declines as rapidly as has been predicted. What tipped the scales is the fact that about $50,000 was raised in three days and a benefactor provided the flights. I don't know that I'd have made the same decision but we continue to pray...

He has already been admitted to hospital and is in the process of having biopsies and imaging done to evaluate his suitability for treatment. They (and we, based on their reports) are completely gobsmacked at how quickly things can move in a fee-for-service system. He's undergone more procedures and consulted with more doctors in the last 4 hours than he did in the last 4 weeks here at home.

Any updates?

 

[ronandannette]

Any updates?

Thanks for asking. His tumors have been determined to be a type that may respond to treatment (pancreatic neuroendocrine cancer) and he's been in hospital receiving intravenous drug therapy for a week now. I'm not sure how fast they are expecting to see a response; his condition doesn't seem to have deteriorated nearly as much as our local doctors predicted by this point and he is not currently in liver failure. He is fully ambulatory and completely lucid but has lost a ton of weight already due to dietary restrictions that were implemented (gluten/sugar/caffeine free) before he left home.

They are astonished at the level of care they're receiving, but I must say, equally astonished at the cost. We just really can't get our heads around it. The drugs alone cost $11,000/week and that doesn't include the price of the hospital stay. There's been close to $100,000 raised which should be enough to cover the complete 8-week treatment protocol. At some point though they will have to realistically evaluate if there's been any progress and if not, try to make it home while he still can. They will be at peace either way and most of us have come around to the point where we're glad they at least took a shot at it - come what may. God is in control.

 

[Kitty 34]

Thanks for asking. His tumors have been determined to be a type that may respond to treatment and he's been in hospital receiving intravenous drug therapy for a week now. I'm not sure how fast they are expecting to see a response; his condition doesn't seem to have deteriorated nearly as much as our local doctors predicted by this point and he is not currently in liver failure. He is fully ambulatory and completely lucid but has lost a ton of weight already due to dietary restrictions that were implemented (gluten/sugar/caffeine free).

They are astonished at the level of care they're receiving, but I must say, equally astonished at the cost. We just really can't get our heads around it. The drugs alone cost $11,000/week and that doesn't include the price of the hospital stay. There's been close to $100,000 raised which should be enough to cover the complete 8-week treatment protocol. At some point though they will have to realistically evaluate if there's been any progress and if not, try to make it home while he still can. They will be at peace either way and most of us have come around to the point where we're glad they at least took a shot at it - come what may. God is in control.

Just want to give you a Ronandannette.