Where to go from here? (Possible debate, gun control)

[Gumbo4x4]

Absolutely! There was an error in DH's background check for starting his new job that caused a delay in getting the results. Did they let him start anyway and sort it out later? Of course not - they pushed his start date back a week to get complete and accurate information. Gun background checks should work the same way, none of this "Time's up" crap. But I'm sure given the current state of things in Washington that would reveal understaffed agencies and result in unacceptable delays, much like the whole IRS/identity theft issue has.

We also need new rules demanding more responsible gun ownership. Not restrictions on ownership, necessarily, but requirements that stolen guns be reported immediately (to crack down on the problem of people who can pass background checks buying guns, selling them on the black market, and claiming they were "stolen" when those guns are later used in the commission of crimes) and stricter safety requirements for concealed carry permits (it takes a 6 week class, 6 months of practice, and a skills test to get a driving permit but you can get a CCW after a one-day 6 hour class). There should also be a mechanism to revoke the right to gun ownership following actions that would disqualify one from legally purchasing a firearm, and less of an "accidents happen" mindset excusing irresponsible handling of firearms.

There's no class required for a driver's license in my state.

 

[Colleen27]

by

New York and Chicago have already implemented all of your ideas, and yet they still have a high number of murders with guns. The criminals just ignore the new laws and continue to commit crimes.

Yeah, because when you only need to drive 30 minutes to go somewhere with completely different laws it isn't difficult to circumvent those laws. It is no different than dry counties and the "beer run", or the early days of local smoking bans that just sent people driving a few miles to a place with more lax laws. It isn't an indictment of the policy itself but rather of the implementation.

The fact is, nations (not cities) with stricter gun control have fewer firearms deaths. That isn't to say we should adopt the same policies but it is disingenuous to try to ignore or deny that reality. Most black market guns in this country aren't smuggled, and smuggling guns poses considerably more difficulty than smuggling drugs or counterfeit purses or whatever other comparison people want to make. They're heavy, they're bulky, and they're readily detectable by even basic screening tools. The flow of illegal guns in our country isn't coming from a foreign nation; it is primarily coming from American citizens who are willing and able to legally purchase firearms to pass along to those who cannot, usually for financial gain.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think the controversy with the Confederate flag was the "perfect diversion" to take media focus off the gun issue. And I agree with luvsJack; it should be harder to get a gun than it is. It's harder to get a driver's license, and in some states it's harder to get a marriage license than it is to get a gun. This makes no sense to me.

The driver's license comparison is apples & oranges. Getting a hunting license or CCW is a lot harder than getting a driver's license where I live. And you neither need to have a license nor pass a background check to purchase a car. You just have to prove you're 18 or over. You could have a dozen DUI's on your record and nobody would refuse to sell you a car.

 

[3Gsandme]

You know, I want to make a further point. I'm pretty liberal. I've been pulling the democrat lever in the voting booth since I could vote. Actually, I'm just about a socialist, but hear me out.

There's more than one issue surrounding the "gun problem" in the United States. It's not a one size fits all solution. As I said in my last post, the gun violence in areas like on the south side of Chicago aren't going to be fixed by more legislation. That's already failed. We need to solve the problem causing the violence and there won't be peace there until that happens, regardless of the weapon used.

In same cases, gun violence comes from a lack of knowledge surrounding gun safety. We need to make sure people who own guns know how to safely handle their guns to stop accidental discharges that kill people. No amount of legislation can fix that problem.

We need to be smart about our legislation. We need to figure out what is causing breaks in mental health care to create people who mastermind and then execute mass killings. It's not super rare. What's going on?

As a country, we need to have a debate, civilly, about what's reasonable to own. Body armor penetrating bullets? No. Semi-automatic weapons? No. Hunting rifles? Yes. Hand guns that hold a few rounds? Yes. Until people can be reasonable in this discussion we won't get any place and it won't be long before there's another tragedy and we're all wringing our hands again.

 

[Colleen27]

There's no class required for a driver's license in my state.

I'll admit to being a little jealous. Getting DS his license is going to cost us upwards of $500 because there is no path to licensing in my state that doesn't involve expensive classes from for-profit operators. Back when I was a kid schools offered the classes but that's no longer allowed; it has to be a dedicated, licensed driving school and those aren't cheap!

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

YOU KNOW FOLKS, what this comes down to, is these type of racist sickos, if he could not get the gun he would have come in with knifes, a axe, baseball bat, bomb, whatever else that he could use to achieve his goal. The failure here is not having this guy checkout and locked up in a mental facility before he could due the harm.


AKK

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Yeah, because when you only need to drive 30 minutes to go somewhere with completely different laws it isn't difficult to circumvent those laws. It is no different than dry counties and the "beer run", or the early days of local smoking bans that just sent people driving a few miles to a place with more lax laws. It isn't an indictment of the policy itself but rather of the implementation.

The fact is, nations (not cities) with stricter gun control have fewer firearms deaths. That isn't to say we should adopt the same policies but it is disingenuous to try to ignore or deny that reality. Most black market guns in this country aren't smuggled, and smuggling guns poses considerably more difficulty than smuggling drugs or counterfeit purses or whatever other comparison people want to make. They're heavy, they're bulky, and they're readily detectable by even basic screening tools. The flow of illegal guns in our country isn't coming from a foreign nation; it is primarily coming from American citizens who are willing and able to legally purchase firearms to pass along to those who cannot, usually for financial gain.

The straw purchase thing has been proven wrong countless times. Does it happen? Yes. Frequently? No. The black market is not full of straw purchases. It's primarily fed by STOLEN guns.

And the notion of driving to some easier place to buy guns doesn't answer the question of why places like Chicago have such violence. If it's the "easy access" to guns, shouldn't those other places that allegedly serve as the source of the guns be facing the same problems?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You know, I want to make a further point. I'm pretty liberal. I've been pulling the democrat lever in the voting booth since I could vote. Actually, I'm just about a socialist, but hear me out.

There's more than one issue surrounding the "gun problem" in the United States. It's not a one size fits all solution. As I said in my last post, the gun violence in areas like on the south side of Chicago aren't going to be fixed by more legislation. That's already failed. We need to solve the problem causing the violence and there won't be peace there until that happens, regardless of the weapon used.

In same cases, gun violence comes from a lack of knowledge surrounding gun safety. We need to make sure people who own guns know how to safely handle their guns to stop accidental discharges that kill people. No amount of legislation can fix that problem.

We need to be smart about our legislation. We need to figure out what is causing breaks in mental health care to create people who mastermind and then execute mass killings. It's not super rare. What's going on?

As a country, we need to have a debate, civilly, about what's reasonable to own. Body armor penetrating bullets? No. Semi-automatic weapons? No. Hunting rifles? Yes. Hand guns that hold a few rounds? Yes. Until people can be reasonable in this discussion we won't get any place and it won't be long before there's another tragedy and we're all wringing our hands again.

Practically any hunting rifle will penetrate body armor. The KTM bullet that was designed to help handgun bullets do the same was pulled from the market in the 1980's.

 

[Colleen27]

The driver's license comparison is apples & oranges. Getting a hunting license or CCW is a lot harder than getting a driver's license where I live. And you neither need to have a license nor pass a background check to purchase a car. You just have to prove you're 18 or over. You could have a dozen DUI's on your record and nobody would refuse to sell you a car.

It is just the opposite here - getting a driver's license is hard, time consuming, and expensive. A CCW is a one day class that costs under $100, and a hunter's license for an adult is just an application fee (kids have to take hunter's safety, which ranges from free to $50 depending on where you take it). And while someone with multiple DUIs isn't prohibited from buying a car he may not be able to register it so owning it wouldn't do a lot of good.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

It is just the opposite here - getting a driver's license is hard, time consuming, and expensive. A CCW is a one day class that costs under $100, and a hunter's license for an adult is just an application fee (kids have to take hunter's safety, which ranges from free to $50 depending on where you take it). And while someone with multiple DUIs isn't prohibited from buying a car he may not be able to register it so owning it wouldn't do a lot of good.

Hunter's safety course here is a day & a half. And as far as I know, there's nothing to stop anyone from registering a car despite no license.

Bottom line, the process of purchasing a gun is not that dissimilar from purchasing a car (save for the background check). And the process of being licensed to use either out in public is similar as well.

 

[lauradis]

This is a simple argument you cant legislate stupidity or craziness out of society.

Bad thing are going to happen. period. and they truly suck.

You cant prevent people from being stupid too. Needless deaths with happen.

You can band guns, put all the warning labels on whatever you want it will still happen.

 

[lauradis]

It is just the opposite here - getting a driver's license is hard, time consuming, and expensive. A CCW is a one day class that costs under $100, and a hunter's license for an adult is just an application fee (kids have to take hunter's safety, which ranges from free to $50 depending on where you take it). And while someone with multiple DUIs isn't prohibited from buying a car he may not be able to register it so owning it wouldn't do a lot of good.

Not if you wait till your 18 to get a drivers licence. plus you can get a learner permit at 15.5 Then all you have to do is show up and take a written and a driving test and pay the driver licence fee in ohio.

Do you really need a drivers licence to drive. Just don't get caught.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I agree with many of the things already said here. I do think things must be done nationwide, and not just on one state or locality to have any real effect, and clearly trying to fix the system to have as little error as possible is important.:

1. outlaw the sale of (and manufacture of) any automatic or semi-automatic firearms. Allow existing ones to remain with their owners, but require registration and a permit and have a buy back program to encourage more of them to go out of circulation.

2. require registration of all fire-arms, and ownership and use only by those with a valid license, which must be updates periodically.

3. get rid of open and concealed carry. Legal uses for guns should be limited to hunting, target practice, etc with a license (hunting) or reserved target practice time scheduled, and you can only be transporting away from home when on the way to one of these things (and since you must have a reservation, it is clear if you are really going there).

Plus, a whole lot of intentional and proactive programs to reduce the "gun culture" and "culture of violence" that we have in our country. Long term studies have found that academic focus in kindergarten and lower grades doesn't really help in the long term in academics and tends to create a "me first, at any cost" attitude that increases violent acts, school issues, etc in later years---so going back to play and social based kindergarten, rating violence as higher in movies and video games instead of things like language, focused attention to teaching civics in younger grades, training police to see themselves as guardians and caretakers not wardens and controllers--same with teachers, etc. Better mental health care. Repeal "make my day" laws, and on and on.

It is a huge, multifaceted problem that we need to approach from a number of directions--but certainly makings guns harder to get your hands on, and less likely to be in various places (both by making it illegal to just carry them around and then hopefully making it socially unacceptable) is an excellent quick start while we work hard on the long term and less tangible things as well.

 

[NHdisneylover]

This is a simple argument you cant legislate stupidity or craziness out of society.

Bad thing are going to happen. period. and they truly suck.

You cant prevent people from being stupid too. Needless deaths with happen.

You can band guns, put all the warning labels on whatever you want it will still happen.

But it happens a LOT less in places where guns are not legal and readily available--even places where they once were.

 

[Colleen27]

The straw purchase thing has been proven wrong countless times. Does it happen? Yes. Frequently? No. The black market is not full of straw purchases. It's primarily fed by STOLEN guns.

And the notion of driving to some easier place to buy guns doesn't answer the question of why places like Chicago have such violence. If it's the "easy access" to guns, shouldn't those other places that allegedly serve as the source of the guns be facing the same problems?

I'll admit to not knowing the prevalence. It is something I've read quite a bit about - straw purchases as well as gun "tourism" to states with lax laws - but not really dug into.

As to the bolded, that only holds if someone is arguing that guns are the ONLY cause of the violence and I've never seen that point made. It is a much more complex issue than that. But firearms access has to be part of the discussion - guns are the most effective tool available for carrying out violence on a large scale, as well as the method that involves the most "collateral damage".

 

[tcufrog]

I think there should be a penalty for you if your gun is used in a crime and you haven't reported it stolen or reported that you sold or gave it to someone that has passed a background check. If this was the case then gun owners would be more likely to report stolen guns, be more likely to keep better track of their guns, and would take the precaution of doing background checks for private party transfers. No it wouldn't eliminate all of the problems but it would help. I also think the gun owner should be always be prosecuted if a minor gets ahold of a gun owner's gun and harms himself or someone else. Too many gun owners don't store their guns in a safe and responsible manner. I'm tired of reading about some 3 year old getting ahold of a gun and accidentally killing himself or a playmate.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I agree with many of the things already said here. I do think things must be done nationwide, and not just on one state or locality to have any real effect, and clearly trying to fix the system to have as little error as possible is important.:

1. outlaw the sale of (and manufacture of) any automatic or semi-automatic firearms. Allow existing ones to remain with their owners, but require registration and a permit and have a buy back program to encourage more of them to go out of circulation.

2. require registration of all fire-arms, and ownership and use only by those with a valid license, which must be updates periodically.

3. get rid of open and concealed carry. Legal uses for guns should be limited to hunting, target practice, etc with a license (hunting) or reserved target practice time scheduled, and you can only be transporting away from home when on the way to one of these things (and since you must have a reservation, it is clear if you are really going there).

Plus, a whole lot of intentional and proactive programs to reduce the "gun culture" and "culture of violence" that we have in our country. Long term studies have found that academic focus in kindergarten and lower grades doesn't really help in the long term in academics and tends to create a "me first, at any cost" attitude that increases violent acts, school issues, etc in later years---so going back to play and social based kindergarten, rating violence as higher in movies and video games instead of things like language, focused attention to teaching civics in younger grades, training police to see themselves as guardians and caretakers not wardens and controllers--same with teachers, etc. Better mental health care. Repeal "make my day" laws, and on and on.

It is a huge, multifaceted problem that we need to approach from a number of directions--but certainly makings guns harder to get your hands on, and less likely to be in various places (both by making it illegal to just carry them around and then hopefully making it socially unacceptable) is an excellent quick start while we work hard on the long term and less tangible things as well.

And you just hit on another reason this will go nowhere. By admitting that 1, 2, and 3 are part of your ultimate goal, you're not going to get anyone on the other side on board with any of your "first steps".

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I'll admit to not knowing the prevalence. It is something I've read quite a bit about - straw purchases as well as gun "tourism" to states with lax laws - but not really dug into.

As to the bolded, that only holds if someone is arguing that guns are the ONLY cause of the violence and I've never seen that point made. It is a much more complex issue than that. But firearms access has to be part of the discussion - guns are the most effective tool available for carrying out violence on a large scale, as well as the method that involves the most "collateral damage".

As for that second paragraph, that is really the difference between us and other countries that don't have these issues. It's a cultural thing and all the gun debate does is distract from a much more complex problem.

After all, guns haven't ALWAYS been highly regulated in Australia or the UK - these countries had no gun problem even when guns were easy to get. Finland still has tons of guns & virtually no crime.

 

[gwynne]

I don't see the upside of the proliferation of guns in the US, but I know mine is not a popular view. That's OK. I'm big on risk mitigation.

 

[Patch'sD]

Stop tying the police's hands went it comes to preventing crime. NYC, prevented crimes by the stop and frisk program. Police in high crime areas would stop anyone they suspected that might have a weapon, Question them and then frisk them. You know what, the criminals stopped carrying guns and if they did, they were promptly arrested. This would have not stopped the Charleston shooting or Sandy Hook. I don't feel that stop and frisk is violating any civil rights, Once the crime is gone, than the police are gone.