Walking “fix” implemented? Problems booking a high value Villa.

[Noodlez]

So… a captcha would actually help bots lol

Unfortunately.

Everyone really needs to stop using that type if they have trained the bots so well on them at this point. Change to a different type, maybe develop new ones, and keep testing them to make sure they stay ahead. Otherwise... why have them?

I only quoted one piece of research as I didn't want to derail the conversation, but here is another looking at various forms, including image recognition and puzzle sliders. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/...humans-than-bots-out-study-shows/70609691007/ I'm fairly sure that whatever kind they come up with next someone will create a bot to try to beat it.

I think the all of the research into them comes to the same conclusion as you did ... why have them?

 

[robinb]

So it is conjecture. Just as I thought. People have been complaining about "bots" for years. If a rental company was providing bots to their owners to grab hard to get reservations it would eventually get out. Someone would slip and say something and the jig would be up. So far, no confirmation that there are really bots grabbing reservations.

While it is conjecture, it comes from people stalking the site, trying to book rooms that are being booked faster than a human could get through the prompts consistently. Not once, not only a dozen times, but day after day.
Then there is the fact that these same difficult to get reservations show up for rent day after day on the same sites.

Here's the thing ... hard to get reservations are always difficult. There are so many other factors to when a person can get to the "Continue" button which sets the villa aside for them to book. Internet speed. Computer speed. How you're determining when 8:00:00 is. Physical reaction time. Just because someone fails at booking in the 11-month window doesn't mean that someone else is using a bot to do it.

Try and get a BWV standard room at 11 months and 8am and see if you think there are bots

Pssst. I am the OP of this thread and started it when I was trying to get a Std View 2BR (which includes a Svd View Studio). It's always been difficult.

 

[mistysue]

So it is conjecture. Just as I thought. People have been complaining about "bots" for years. If a rental company was providing bots to their owners to grab hard to get reservations it would eventually get out. Someone would slip and say something and the jig would be up. So far, no confirmation that there are really bots grabbing reservations.



Here's the thing ... hard to get reservations are always difficult. There are so many other factors to when a person can get to the "Continue" button which sets the villa aside for them to book. Internet speed. Computer speed. How you're determining when 8:00:00 is. Physical reaction time. Just because someone fails at booking in the 11-month window doesn't mean that someone else is using a bot to do it.



Pssst. I am the OP of this thread and started it when I was trying to get a Std View 2BR (which includes a Svd View Studio). It's always been difficult.

Ok, so resale companies have made bots for every other system Disney has, but are ignoring DVC. Sure.

 

[Sandisw]

Ok, so resale companies have made bots for every other system Disney has, but are ignoring DVC. Sure.

Some people are saying bots, and bots alone, is what is causing the issue and if they are eliminated, getting hard to get rooms won’t be hard.

That’s not true because there are lots of different things that cause an owner to lose out and these availability problems existed long before online booking.

Sure, there is a very good chance that a company is using them, but what was asked was is there proof, meaning someone has first hand knowledge of them using them. And the answer to that is no, there is not.

 

[mistysue]

Some people are saying bots, and bots alone, is what is causing the issue and if they are eliminated, getting hard to get rooms won’t be hard.

That’s not true because there are lots of different things that cause an owner to lose out and these availability problems existed long before online booking.

Sure, there is a very good chance that a company is using them, but what was asked was is there proof, meaning someone has first hand knowledge of them using them. And the answer to that is no, there is not.

I haven't noticed anyone saying it is bots and bots alone that make hard to book times difficult, only that bots are compounding an issue and that they are unfair and should not be allowed.

I was responding to a comment saying if there is not complete proof, there are NO bots being used at all. Which is an extremely naive reaction to not having proof that bots alone are the cause of all problems, especially when I do not believe anybody thinks that every room type would be wide open without bots interfering. It's just that bots are making a frustrating situation worse.

 

[Sandisw]

I haven't noticed anyone saying it is bots and bots alone that make hard to book times difficult, only that bots are compounding an issue and that they are unfair and should not be allowed.

I was responding to a comment saying if there is not complete proof, there are NO bots being used at all. Which is an extremely naive reaction to not having proof that bots alone are the cause of all problems, especially when I do not believe anybody thinks that every room type would be wide open without bots interfering. It's just that bots are making a frustrating situation worse.

If bots are being used, I can defintely see that it makes frustration higher, given they are already difficult to begin with. I am not conviced that you have a ton of owners out there using them...and that doesn't mean I am saying DVC should ignore them.

From what was found yesterday, Disney (and DVC) should be the ones that go after anyone as it is a against terms and conditions of using any Disney online system...

 

[mistysue]

If bots are being used, I can defintely see that it makes frustration higher, given they are already difficult to begin with. I am not conviced that you have a ton of owners out there using them...and that doesn't mean I am saying DVC should ignore them.

From what was found yesterday, Disney (and DVC) should be the ones that go after anyone as it is a against terms and conditions of using any Disney online system...

I don't think it's "a ton of owners". This is something someone who has a LOT of money to make would set up. It's probably a small handful of corporations who make a living renting hard to get and mainly "great deal" rooms.

 

[Noodlez]

Ok, so resale companies have made bots for every other system Disney has, but are ignoring DVC. Sure.

I am definitely aware of bots being made for some systems, because they're usually for profit so we usually find out about them! For example, there used to be multiple sites that you could sign up to that would alert you when dining reservations became available. You could have one or two free reservations, but it would cost if you wanted more or quicker alerts. I know that after recent changes at least one of them stopped being able to provide this service.

I am not saying that these haven't been created for DVC bookings, but I'm fairly sure that if they were as popular as we think they would be suggesting them to renters (as @robinb mentioned) or we would be able to find them and pay for them if we did a search!

I mentioned bots that could beat captchas earlier. It took only a minute or two to find browser extensions and apps that would do this. If bots were actually able to get those prime rooms in a way the rest of us can't I'm fairly sure someone would have have managed to monetise this by now!

 

[Tatebeck]

Bots for some tasks are often made for in house use and not sold commercially if there is profit to be made from using the bot themselves, especially if they know that it is against the rules and would get shut down or bring a lawsuit. Or if they are sold it's more of a person to person basis with people working together or on forums after a person seems trustworthy then cuts a deal. They don't often openly advertise them. Any person who made one would only increase their booking or rental competition if they did release it. And run the risk of losing it if it gets detected, exposed, or shut down.

If you had a made a machine that was illegal but somehow pulled small nuggets of gold out of thin air would you try to sell the machine and run the risk of exposing yourself, getting sued or shut down? Or just use it yourself?

No one knows if they are being used now because Disney isn't trying to detect them and anyone using them would be unlikely to tell others about them if it would hurt themselves. So who knows for sure if they are used? I sure don't.

In the dining reservation example it would make sense they tried to sell use to that bot, because the bot itself couldn't make them money. They weren't able to book and sell reservations, they had to be booked through Disney. With DVC there would be money to be made through rentals without selling access to the bot.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Bots for some tasks are often made for in house use and not sold commercially if there is profit to be made from using the bot themselves, especially if they know that it is against the rules and would get shut down or bring a lawsuit. Or if they are sold it's more of a person to person basis on forums after a person seems trustworthy then cuts a deal. They don't often openly advertise them. Any person who made one would only increase their booking or rental competition if they did release it. And run the risk of losing it if it gets detected, exposed, or shut down.

If you had a made a machine that was illegal but somehow pulled small nuggets of gold out of thin air would you try to sell the machine and run the risk of exposing yourself, getting sued or shut down? Or just use it yourself?

No one knows if they are being used now because Disney isn't trying to detect them and anyone using them would be unlikely to tell others about them if it would hurt themselves. So who knows for sure if they are used? I sure don't.

In the dining reservation example it would make sense they tried to sell use to that bot, because the bot itself couldn't make them money. They weren't able to book and sell reservations, they had to be booked through Disney. With DVC there would be money to be made through rentals without selling access to the bot.

Yes, exactly. The commercial renting proposing goes like this:
1. Buy loaded (or distressed) BWV points for under $100/pt
2. Book the very best dates where you can get a standard studio for 11 points or less but still rent it for more than $500/night
3. Make $37/per point ($45-8 in dues)

I haven’t done the math but allegedly there are dates on the point chart where you can rent upwards of $50/pt. Not sure what the best case for AKV and BCV are but it’s definitely over $25/$30, respectively.

Sharing your bot with others just makes it harder for you to get the $50/point reservations and increases the risk that your golden nugget machine gets shut down entirely.

 

[robinb]

Bots for some tasks are often made for in house use and not sold commercially if there is profit to be made from using the bot themselves, especially if they know that it is against the rules and would get shut down or bring a lawsuit. Or if they are sold it's more of a person to person basis with people working together or on forums after a person seems trustworthy then cuts a deal. They don't often openly advertise them. Any person who made one would only increase their booking or rental competition if they did release it. And run the risk of losing it if it gets detected, exposed, or shut down.

If you had a made a machine that was illegal but somehow pulled small nuggets of gold out of thin air would you try to sell the machine and run the risk of exposing yourself, getting sued or shut down? Or just use it yourself?

No one knows if they are being used now because Disney isn't trying to detect them and anyone using them would be unlikely to tell others about them if it would hurt themselves. So who knows for sure if they are used? I sure don't.

In the dining reservation example it would make sense they tried to sell use to that bot, because the bot itself couldn't make them money. They weren't able to book and sell reservations, they had to be booked through Disney. With DVC there would be money to be made through rentals without selling access to the bot.

I've seen a certain commercial renter with many, many reservations used as an example of bot behavior. The problem with your theory is that (1) a bot can only pretend to be a member for one reservation at a time. So, it can snag only one hard to get reservation per day . And (b) the number of points a renter would need would to book that many reservations is more than any one member can have.

So, either a commercial renter has direct access to multiple high point contracts to run the bot on, or they are sharing the bot with their members who then book the reservations. If they are asking members to install a program or run a script it would have gotten out by now. In addition, DVC has cracked down on commercial rentals in the past and someone using a bot to book hard to get reservations is a poster boy for commercial renting. There would be no way that a 8k point owner running a bot on their account for rentals would escape DVC's attention.

 

[Sandisw]

I've seen a certain commercial renter with many, many reservations used as an example of bot behavior. The problem with your theory is that (1) a bot can only pretend to be a member for one reservation at a time. So, it can snag only one hard to get reservation per day . And (b) the number of points a renter would need would to book that many reservations is more than any one member can have.

So, either a commercial renter has direct access to multiple high point contracts to run the bot on, or they are sharing the bot with their members who then book the reservations. If they are asking members to install a program or run a script it would have gotten out by now. In addition, DVC has cracked down on commercial rentals in the past and someone using a bot to book hard to get reservations is a poster boy for commercial renting. There would be no way that a 8k point owner running a bot on their account for rentals would escape DVC's attention.

To add, we have to remember that each membership is legally its own. So, when they review or flag accounts, its going to flag only a membership, on its own, that appears to be doing something to question...which, the only threshold we have is from 2007...flags memberships with 20 or more reservations within a rolling 12 month period.

Now, once those memberships are flagged, there is nothing stopping DVC to dig further to see what is happening on those. But, an owner with 8000 points, even if the owners are LLCs, businesses, trusts, etc. do not have to own them all on the same membership.

Each new UY is a different membership...so, if we use the 20 reservations limit as the trigger, it could be pretty easy to get around DVC flagging you as long as you keep each membership under the threshold. For example, I have three UYs, so if I rent 10 on each one, I am at 30, but DVC is not going to see that because it won't flag them because I didn't hit 20.

And, I am still not yet convinced that DVC has the ability, legally, to enforce rules against multiple memberships owned with some of hte same owners, if, individually, each one is being used within the personal use guidelines...again, question for a lawyer who specializes in contracts and timeshares.

So, we come back to bots being able to grab a hard to get room and I know that the system does not allow more than one room to be booked on the same time on the same membership...I tried it with me trying at the same time my DD tried under her log in. One of us always got shut out when it came time to confirm.

That indicates to me that anyone who may be using them to grab rooms, would have to have multiple people doing it on multiple memberships at the same time, and if we are talking multiple memberships, then, as far as I know, DVC sees them as that...

 

[muppets3d]

I've seen a certain commercial renter with many, many reservations used as an example of bot behavior. The problem with your theory is that (1) a bot can only pretend to be a member for one reservation at a time. So, it can snag only one hard to get reservation per day . And (b) the number of points a renter would need would to book that many reservations is more than any one member can have.

So, either a commercial renter has direct access to multiple high point contracts to run the bot on, or they are sharing the bot with their members who then book the reservations. If they are asking members to install a program or run a script it would have gotten out by now. In addition, DVC has cracked down on commercial rentals in the past and someone using a bot to book hard to get reservations is a poster boy for commercial renting. There would be no way that a 8k point owner running a bot on their account for rentals would escape DVC's attention.

Example brokerage has 5 employees, they've given each employee thousands of points. Thus they have 5 unique memberships.

 

[robinb]

Example brokerage has 5 employees, they've given each employee thousands of points. Thus they have 5 unique memberships.

LOL. Now you're really reaching.

 

[BeachClub2014]

I've seen a certain commercial renter with many, many reservations used as an example of bot behavior. The problem with your theory is that (1) a bot can only pretend to be a member for one reservation at a time. So, it can snag only one hard to get reservation per day . And (b) the number of points a renter would need would to book that many reservations is more than any one member can have.

So, either a commercial renter has direct access to multiple high point contracts to run the bot on, or they are sharing the bot with their members who then book the reservations. If they are asking members to install a program or run a script it would have gotten out by now. In addition, DVC has cracked down on commercial rentals in the past and someone using a bot to book hard to get reservations is a poster boy for commercial renting. There would be no way that a 8k point owner running a bot on their account for rentals would escape DVC's attention.

Who's to say they don't own numerous contracts directly, thus providing the direct access you reference?

I never really understand these all-or-nothing references. It is illogical to assume or believe that some mega rental sites don't directly own DVC contracts to rent points while also brokering rentals on behalf of other owners.

 

[ehh]

Who's to say they don't own numerous contracts directly, thus providing the direct access you reference?

I never really understand these all-or-nothing references. It is illogical to assume or believe that some mega rental sites don't directly own DVC contracts to rent points while also brokering rentals on behalf of other owners.

We previously booked a stay via rented points and as part of the rental paperwork the name of the owner was provided. The points were owned by an LLC that is mentioned in multiple records with the rental site's LLC.

 

[muppets3d]

LOL. Now you're really reaching.

I don't know the rules of linking to youtube videos on here, but I can send you an interview of a DVC resell broker who admits it in a roundabout way.

 

[Tatebeck]

I've seen a certain commercial renter with many, many reservations used as an example of bot behavior. The problem with your theory is that (1) a bot can only pretend to be a member for one reservation at a time. So, it can snag only one hard to get reservation per day . And (b) the number of points a renter would need would to book that many reservations is more than any one member can have.

So, either a commercial renter has direct access to multiple high point contracts to run the bot on, or they are sharing the bot with their members who then book the reservations. If they are asking members to install a program or run a script it would have gotten out by now. In addition, DVC has cracked down on commercial rentals in the past and someone using a bot to book hard to get reservations is a poster boy for commercial renting. There would be no way that a 8k point owner running a bot on their account for rentals would escape DVC's attention.

You also forget that even if they can only get 1 high value reservation per membership per day, they can make that reservation in a less valuable time period and then walk that forward to a more desired date in the future. With multiple memberships, or even just one membership, over time they could get many many valuable rooms during popular times

In 30 days, a single member with a single membership could be able to book 30 weeklong stays and walk them forward. If they do that for a few months leading up to a popular time, they could have 90+ weeks booked, or over 630 nights. And this would increase if there were multiple memberships or multiple people in on it

 

[muppets3d]

Obviously DVC rental brokers own thousands of points themselves. They stand to make much more money if they're renting points they own vs. paying a large commission to a DVC owner to use their points.

 

[muppets3d]

You also forget that even if they can only get 1 high value reservation per membership per day, they can make that reservation in a less valuable time period and then walk that forward to a more desired date in the future. With multiple memberships, or even just one membership, over time they could get many many valuable rooms during popular times

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the rental brokers have the lion's share of Jambo value studios locked up in a walk year-round.