Parents of kids with Down syndrome-please help me understand

I have been to church before and heard people singing in the choir who are off key and we didn't think about asking them to step down.

I am a mom of DD 6 months with DS and if she wants to sing in the choir and the choir will have her she will sing, and sing proudly. In our church any singing is praised, you should here me, now thats bad, and no one has asked me to stop yet. The OP obviously speaks with no real knowledge of a child with a disability or from a parent of a child with a disabilitity. Until she faces the obstacles both socially and medically that families with children with disabilities face maybe she should rethink how harsh she sounds.
 
I think you really need to look inside an see why this bothers you.

I commend your church. They are truly teaching tolerance.
 
I think you really need to look inside an see why this bothers you.

I commend your church. They are truly teaching tolerance.

::yes:: Awesome church. Worship isn't just for those that are perfect. And, boy am I thankful for that!!!!!!

OP, if you all want a show choir, perhaps you ought to start one.

eta: I mean this in a positive sense. Not a sarcastic one!
 
I used to care what people thought of me, but over the years I've had a few life lessons which have taught me a couple of things. Now I think you should be who are are, do what you want and not give a proverbial what other people think, regardless of abilities or disabilities. After all, the only way to learn is to go out there and do.

I think your church is doing a great job, and I do agree that God loves all His children for all their specialness. I hope this helps a bit, and well done for having the desire to learn and the courage to ask such a potentially flammable question :thumbsup2
 
I agree wholeheartedly with those who said whether the praise is off-key or not is not the issue. The important thing is that the child with DS wants to be involved in the choir and is doing the best she can do. It might not be up to some people's 'standards', but she is there with a willing heart and a willing voice.

I'm sure that the child's mother is very aware that her child is singing off-key if she is a professional singer. As the parent of a child with a disability, she is well aware that her child will probably never do anything perfectly, but the child is happy to try and that is important. The parents are probably happy that their child is just able to participate at all, because even talking was something that parents of children with disabilities don't take for granted. When the parent and child get to the point that the choir is not the right thing for them, they will choose to stop.

As for the comments about the child not being able to read music and 'not being able to keep up later', maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. I was in a very good choir in high school and never did learn to read music - We did Handel's Messiah and it didn't keep me from performing. There are many professional musicians who can't read music (even famous performers/song writers, like Paul Mccartney).
 
I don't think that the OP is bothered by this, she just wants to know the thought process of the parents involved.

Honestly, good for Callie for participating, but I really don't think she should be involved in competitions or many public (out of the church) performances. It's great that she's included and it shows the other choir members tolerance and love, however it isn't fair to the kids who want the choir to be competitive and/or professional outside of the church.

It's kind of like when someone with a disability is on a baseball team. Most teams let the kid play but if the game is on the line the kid will sit on the bench in favor of the better athletes. The less talented non-disabled kids will sit on the bench too. It's just reality.
 
This is something I originally posted a little over a year ago on this board.
I think it fits well here, because it is about a performing group. None of the parents or the participants have any illusions about our ability to perform because we know what we have all gone thru to get to this point.
When we perform, we have the audience in tears and get a standing ovation. The parents of the 'perfect kids' who can dance with grace and precision can see how much our kids are working and how difficult it is for them to even be up on the stage.
And they are happy for us and with us for the chance to perform, perfect or not.

Here's the story:
Youngest DD and I were on our way home from the one place in the world where we fit in completely. Everyone in that little "world" understands what we are going thru because they have been there, or somewhere nearby.

The "world" we were in is tiny; one big room about 30 by 40 feet, one small (but wheelchair accessible) restroom and another room that we sometimes use if someone has brought treats for a birthday. When that happens, several of the participants just lick the treats, some are fed in messy mouthfuls shoved into their mouths by mom or helper, some can't eat anything by mouth and devour the treats with their eyes. Some don't look like they notice we have moved from the large room, until one girl cries (more like screaming) until we have finished singing Happy Birthday and several of them get startled and arms and legs jerk. My DD will never eat anything when we are away from home; afraid she'll make a mess and suspicious of plastic cutlery - she has broken one too many plastic fork when she couldn't control how hard she bit down. Her treat has to be wrapped up in a napkin and placed into her bag; where I may be able to remove it later without her noticing (or maybe not and I'll find it in a few days, a sticky mess of frosting crusted napkin.)

In this world, my DD is not one of the most disabled, she is actually one of the least disabled. Welcome to the world of the Uniquely Abled Dance Class. My DD is the one with glasses in the back row on the far right of the picture. The one who is obstinantly looking out of the picture. This picture was taken a few years ago; the one they used before was better (at least of my DD). The photographer's helper that year was a cute teen guy. The helper when this picture was taken was a middle aged woman; not the same effect at all.

And Uniquely Abled we are. Some participants can walk a few steps, some can talk, some can understand everything that is said to them, some can drive their own wheelchairs, but no one in the room can do all those things (except us helpers, parents or other family members who are watching). Some participants are wheeled around the room, as insubstantial and apparently as unfeeling as ghosts. Sometimes a piece of music or movement breaks thru to one of those participants and they smile or make a sound. In our world that is a cause for group rejoycing because we know how precious that connection with the world is for the parent of that child.

Some of us envy other parents because of things their kids can do that our child can't:
I envy J and N because they can talk. (J and N are in the first row, the 2nd and 3rd from the left).
Mothers of typical children wouldn't understand that because, by typical child standards, J and N can hardly talk at all. They speak in quiet, breathy voices with pauses between words as they struggle to find a word or force it out. My DD is one who can understand, but not talk. She's sometimes very noisy, but doesn't have the ability to say any words that people in the "normal" world can understand. She talks in signs, gestures and what Ursula in the Little Mermaid calls "body language".
J and N's moms have told me that they envy me because my DD is fully grown, but is tiny (5 feet tall and 86 pounds), a perfect size for transfers. J and N live in a world of using Hoyer lifts to move from place to place because they are too heavy to be lifted and can't support their own weight. I'm lucky because, not only is DD tiny and light, but she is also able to stand and walk if I hold her up (clumsy and lurching, but walking and easier than using a lift).
I envy LR because she does a good job of controlling her computerized talking device (even though she has to do it with scanning and controlling a switch with her head). (LR is in the front row, right over the word "the").
LR's mom envies me because my DD can drive her wheelchair with her hands, instead of a head array like LR has to use because she can't use her hands.

I feel lucky and don't know how some of the parents survive their life; I don't know how I would.
Some of the kids hardly react to anything and there is seldom a connection between them and the outside world. That would be hard for me, but they seem to cope. Maybe they are watching me and wondering how I cope with DD, who connects with me a bit too much sometimes. My DD sometimes bosses me around - everyone in the class knows the drill. She is obsessed with my purse. Sometimes, I have to wear it. Sometimes it is supposed to be on the floor in a specific place. If I leave it by my coat, she's OK for a while, then gets an absolutely paniced look on her face until I put it where she wants it to be (it's my purse, if anyone is paniced about where it is, it should be me). The back of her wheelchair would be the logical place for the purse to be, but heaven forbid I put it there, that is not part of my DD's "rules of conduct" to have it there.

I also feel lucky that my family doesn't have a "before and after" like some of the parents do. Some of them put a "normal" child to bed one night and then something catastrophic moved them from the world of "parent of 'normal' child" to the world of "parent of special needs child". We didn't have any sudden uprooting like that; just a slow realization that our child was not following on the path we thought she was. I don't know that I could handle the fast uprooting.

We feel lucky and thankful - today 2 kids are missing from class, but not for any bad reasons. One is on vacation and one is in respite care because her parents went on a trip and she had no way to get to class.
In a "typical" dance class, kids might miss class because they forgot the date or had car trouble. In our world, missing the class is more likely something more ominous; one boy had pneumonia earlier this year, my DD missed classes a few times because she had seizures the night before and was too tired, a year ago one of the girls got bacteremia from an infected baclophen pump and nearly died. Today, our world is lucky because no one is sick.

We feel lucky and thankful because in a world where parents without special needs children often don't stay together, most of the parents in our class are. And some kids have entended family members who come somtimes to observe the class. I feel lucky because I have a DH who loves me and adores our DDs (and they him). I have an older DD who is a real blessing. I feel blessed because she has found a young man who she loves and he loves her back. And both of them love my younger DD.

We feel lucky and thankful that a wonderful woman named Nancy started this class - and provides it for us all free of charge. All because she had a friend who went blind and was sad that he would not be able to take dance classes any more. Nancy couldn't see a reason why not and started dance classes for people with visual disabilities and hearing disabilities and Developmental Disabilites and our class, where all the participants use wheelchairs.

We feel lucky and thankful that we have others we can talk to who understand what we are saying. After class, we talk about things that wouldn't make ANY sense to most people; talking in a sort of verbal shorthand about power wheelchair settings and computers that talk for our kids and more usual things like glasses and bras for our teen girls (but from a different viewpoint) - how many parents are trying to deal with the problem of keeping glasses in place when the child moves their head on the headrest, or how many times you can bend wire rim glasses back into shape after they have been run over by a power wheelchair. I'm pretty confident that most mothers of teens have not discussed how to keep a bra on their teenage DD because her athetoid movements make her "slither" out of it.

I am lucky and thankful that I happened upon the DIS boards in 1999, which led to the disABILITIES board starting and being able to share joys and sorrows and WDW hints with other people on this board. The people in the dance class world are mostly unaware of the DIS world that I am part of, although one of the moms gave me one of the most poignant suggestions I had for this board - her DS can't sit up without his wheelchair which has trunk pieces that "hug" him into his wheelchair and a head rest that cradles his head. He is one who hardly ever reacts to anything - a newborn in a tiny 23 year's body. When they went to WDW, one of the CMs at one of the photo shops that superimpose your picture against a different backround in the computer devised a way to digitally remove the wheelchair from the picture. With that piece of magic, the woman got to see her son for the first time without his wheelchair.
True magic to her.
And we all understood and were happy for her.

So, I wish you all feel as happy and blessed today as I do, as we discuss little things that just might be huge for the person who we are discussing with.
______________
 


I don't think that the OP is bothered by this, she just wants to know the thought process of the parents involved.
I have to wonder why the OP is asking this, if she wants to know the Mothers thought process it seems best to speak to the Mother as she knows her and obviously has issues. From some of the comments in the following posts I am getting a feel of another Mother who is wanting nothing to get in the way of her daughters participation.
Honestly, good for Callie for participating, but I really don't think she should be involved in competitions or many public (out of the church) performances. It's great that she's included and it shows the other choir members tolerance and love, however it isn't fair to the kids who want the choir to be competitive and/or professional outside of the church.
I am I the only one who feels it is not the job of a Church to be that competative.
 
How eloquently put SueM in MN.

That reminded me of when my youngest was very young. Before she was diagnosed with High Functioning Autism. We where having a particularly rough week. I was really feeling sorry for myself.

I turned on the TV to a St Jude's commercial. Such a horrible feeling of shame spread over me that to this day, seven years later I can still feel it when I think about that day.

Yep, My Gracie will never be like the average kids, but I will also never have to know the pain of sitting month after month in a hospital uncertain of my childs future.

My shame was taking for granted the blessings the lord gave me. I haven't made that mistake since.
 
Sue, I can't find the appropriate words, so I'm just going to say thank you, thank you so much.
 
I am I the only one who feels it is not the job of a Church to be that competative.

Nope. You are not alone. The OP stated it was a volunteer choir. Combine a VOLUNTEER choir within a CHURCH and I fail to see the issue with this child singing.

SueM in MN...beautiful! Thank you for sharing that!
 
The OP obviously speaks with no real knowledge of a child with a disability or from a parent of a child with a disabilitity. Until she faces the obstacles both socially and medically that families with children with disabilities face maybe she should rethink how harsh she sounds.

Actually, DS16 has Asperger's syndrome, is very ADD and has a speech impediment.
 
I don't think that the OP is bothered by this, she just wants to know the thought process of the parents involved.

Yes. I really wanted to know the thought process. Of course I can't ask my friend directly-she would react the way y'all have.

Here's another story to illustrate how those of us not in the situation can't always understand the other side, no matter how we try: My dad spent a few years as a social worker in a public high school for severely mentally disabled teens. Many could not sit up unassisted. Their IEPs contained goals like "feed self with spoon." Over the years, half the parents took their kids out of this school because they wanted their child to "have a normal high school experience" and "be able to go to prom."

I always thought that if I was the parent, I would want my child to be in an enviroment where the staff was focussed on MY child's needs 100% of the time during the time a public education was available, rather than being "accomodated" in a regular school. However, obviously, scores of parents disagreed, although I could never understand their thinking.
 
Yes. I really wanted to know the thought process. Of course I can't ask my friend directly-she would react the way y'all have.
Friend or acquaintance? If you have real reason to discuss with her she may not 'blow up' or perhaps the reaction you have engendered has given you thoughts as to what you have raised.
Here's another story to illustrate how those of us not in the situation can't always understand the other side, no matter how we try: My dad spent a few years as a social worker in a public high school for severely mentally disabled teens. Many could not sit up unassisted. Their IEPs contained goals like "feed self with spoon." Over the years, half the parents took their kids out of this school because they wanted their child to "have a normal high school experience" and "be able to go to prom."

I always thought that if I was the parent, I would want my child to be in an enviroment where the staff was focussed on MY child's needs 100% of the time during the time a public education was available, rather than being "accomodated" in a regular school. However, obviously, scores of parents disagreed, although I could never understand their thinking.

Many parents have this choice and it is difficult for them, by shielding or segregating children you may seem to give them the best care in isolation but when they have to form part of society perhaps at the end of education they may have a bigger adjustment. Also by segregating from the mainstream you prevent the mainstream leaning by first hand experience and may lead to more intollerant attitudes.
 
Friend or acquaintance? If you have real reason to discuss with her she may not 'blow up' or perhaps the reaction you have engendered has given you thoughts as to what you have raised.

Many parents have this choice and it is difficult for them, by shielding or segregating children you may seem to give them the best care in isolation but when they have to form part of society perhaps at the end of education they may have a bigger adjustment. Also by segregating from the mainstream you prevent the mainstream leaning by first hand experience and may lead to more intollerant attitudes.

Right. I guess I would be inclined to be more selfish. The "free and appropriate public eduation" lasts from ages 3-21...if my child couldn't feed herself and the educators thought she could learn, I'd want every single opportunity for her to learn. But I'm not them...have never been in their shoes. (Although I realize that any of us could be - over half of the kids in the school were not born that way but rather, had experienced traumatic brain injuries.)
 
Never mind. I had a long post trying to kindly explain to try to help you understand, but I honestly don't feel as though you truly do want to understand. For every answer posted, you seem to come up with another argument or way to skew the answers in your favor.

In my opinion, I believe that Callie is not the issue, but rather intolerance of acceptance in a place where tolerance, love, kindness, compassion, and complete acceptance not only SHOULD be tolerated, but is expected.
 
Here's another story to illustrate how those of us not in the situation can't always understand the other side, no matter how we try: My dad spent a few years as a social worker in a public high school for severely mentally disabled teens. Many could not sit up unassisted. Their IEPs contained goals like "feed self with spoon." Over the years, half the parents took their kids out of this school because they wanted their child to "have a normal high school experience" and "be able to go to prom."

Comparing apples to oranges since this example only works if the choir is an audition choir. You stated it was not an audition choir, but a volunteer choir, which makes it open to all.
 
I have been reading and thinking about this post since yesterday. Yes the girl has the right to sing in the church choir but I also can see where it would really be a kindness to her if her Mom simply said you know maybe you shouldn't sing so loud and try to blend in with the choir- which is what would be told to anyone in a choir who was not together with the group. Singing in a choir is an assembly production it is not 20 people singing solos.They work on harmonizing etc, I think she should at least try. How is that being mean, I think it is nicer than letting her stand out till the day someone else says something to her who may not be so kind. And it will happen. Then she is hurt and feels betrayed because no one she trusted told her. Everyone in this world has limitations and we all have to learn to deal with them. The other thing is the other choir members are kids too. I don't think it is wrong for them to want to sound the best they can for an audition, were you always gracious as a teen? IMO instead of insisting she has the right to stand up and do whatever she wants I think she has the right to learn and work Together with the choir cooperatively. Everyone has to give a bit.

My DD's dance instructor has a brother with Downs who loves to dance. However she doesn't just let him go and do his own thing, instead she works with him and his limitations, tells him when it isn't correct and he learns the routine and practices. She takes him to competitions and last yr he won a silver. He still loves dance so I think a compromise could be worked out between her taking over the songs and singing in the choir.
 
I have been reading and thinking about this post since yesterday. Yes the girl has the right to sing in the church choir but I also can see where it would really be a kindness to her if her Mom simply said you know maybe you shouldn't sing so loud and try to blend in with the choir- which is what would be told to anyone in a choir who was not together with the group. Singing in a choir is an assembly production it is not 20 people singing solos.They work on harmonizing etc, I think she should at least try. How is that being mean, I think it is nicer than letting her stand out till the day someone else says something to her who may not be so kind. And it will happen. Then she is hurt and feels betrayed because no one she trusted told her. Everyone in this world has limitations and we all have to learn to deal with them. The other thing is the other choir members are kids too. I don't think it is wrong for them to want to sound the best they can for an audition, were you always gracious as a teen? IMO instead of insisting she has the right to stand up and do whatever she wants I think she has the right to learn and work Together with the choir cooperatively. Everyone has to give a bit.

My DD's dance instructor has a brother with Downs who loves to dance. However she doesn't just let him go and do his own thing, instead she works with him and his limitations, tells him when it isn't correct and he learns the routine and practices. She takes him to competitions and last yr he won a silver. He still loves dance so I think a compromise could be worked out between her taking over the songs and singing in the choir.

I think your thinking is close to mine (if you don't mind the comparison.) One kind person PM'd me and said that she never wanted to put her son with Down syndrome in an "unflattering" position. I guess that's what really bothers me - not about Callie, but her mom. Teen girls are so self conscious...I'd never want to put my daughter with Down syndrome in a postion that other teen girls would be uncomfortable in.
 
I think your thinking is close to mine (if you don't mind the comparison.) One kind person PM'd me and said that she never wanted to put her son with Down syndrome in an "unflattering" position. I guess that's what really bothers me - not about Callie, but her mom. Teen girls are so self conscious...I'd never want to put my daughter with Down syndrome in a postion that other teen girls would be uncomfortable in.

Who says she's in an "uncomfortable position"? You? You don't have a daughter with Downs. I personally think you are too involved with something that's none of your beeswax. It's a church choir, for pete's sake. Let the girl sing!:sad2:
 

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