Helene Aftermath…Are You Ok?

[NotUrsula]

The response has been slower than Katrina. Where’s the outrage this time?

I wouldn't say that at all. The terrain is very different in this instance.

In the case of Katrina, the storm itself was not the real disaster; the collapse of the levee was, and that happened nearly a full day after the storm had passed. Some responders who had been posted nearby actually were getting ready to turn for home because they thought they would not be needed. The thing is, the post-Katrina flood happened in a bowl; a large, open, low-lying area where boats and army trucks could roll in easily, where there was no downhill rush of water sweeping buildings off foundations and piling trees up on top of other buildings, and where huge numbers of functional boats were already available nearby, so once the order was given, they came in fast. With the exception of the twin-span, roads into New Orleans were simply underwater, not destroyed, so they were passable as soon as the water receded.

In the Carolinas you are dealing with mountain terrain, millions of downed trees, and washed-out roads. There is no body of water comparable to the Missississipi River or Lake Ponchartrain via which boats can launch. There are small rivers so covered with debris that they look like dry land, but they just are not; so the route is impossible via boat and equally impossible via land vehicle. Air is all there is until temporary roads can be cleared and built, and air is slow unless you're parachuting truck-sized pallets out of the back of a moving cargo plane. Aid was sent immediately, but much of it is stuck in staging areas waiting for scarce specialized vehicles that can move it into the affected areas.

 

[sam_gordon]

I wouldn't say that at all. The terrain is very different in this instance.

In the case of Katrina, the storm itself was not the real disaster; the collapse of the levee was, and that happened nearly a full day after the storm had passed. Some responders who had been posted nearby actually were getting ready to turn for home because they thought they would not be needed. The thing is, the post-Katrina flood happened in a bowl; a large, open, low-lying area where boats and army trucks could roll in easily, where there was no downhill rush of water sweeping buildings off foundations and piling trees up on top of other buildings, and where huge numbers of functional boats were already available nearby, so once the order was given, they came in fast. With the exception of the twin-span, roads into New Orleans were simply underwater, not destroyed, so they were passable as soon as the water receded.

In the Carolinas you are dealing with mountain terrain, millions of downed trees, and washed-out roads. There is no body of water comparable to the Missississipi River or Lake Ponchartrain via which boats can launch. There are small rivers so covered with debris that they look like dry land, but they just are not; so the route is impossible via boat and equally impossible via land vehicle. Air is all there is until temporary roads can be cleared and built, and air is slow unless you're parachuting truck-sized pallets out of the back of a moving cargo plane. Aid was sent immediately, but much of it is stuck in staging areas waiting for scarce specialized vehicles that can move it into the affected areas.

So wait, we're saying each disaster is different and basing what happens in one vs another isn't realistic? Who knew? /s

 

[TiggerTrigger]

I am such a mix of feelings on this. I grew up on the east coast, lived in Florida for 7 years, have tons of friends and family still in FL, and I've lived in the Houston area for nearly 30 years.

On one hand, it always feels like storm efforts never...and I mean NEVER...go as quickly as we'd like. The reasons why are greatly varied, but some of it is worsened by 1. People on the outside looking in that feel helpless in the face of disaster and wish everyone could receive help immediately without understanding the scope of the obstacles. 2. People living in the middle of it (or have loved ones in it) who feel like they're being forgotten when it's usually just a matter of a. there's too much damage to get to your needs just yet b. there are people with greater issues in line ahead of you.

That being said, I feel like there was enough meteorological warning data to have teams ready to go/in position for these areas before it got bad. The expected flash flood risk map below went out from NOAA on 9/25/2024. It was one of several that went out before landfall (earliest I recall on 9/23) in addition to others with the extremely high projected rainfall totals. I follow a number of weather sources and enthusiasts and most were extremely concerned about the region in pink (and those nearby). The maps and tone among the experts reminded me of the gravity in reporting before Harvey. My Harvey experience (as well as a few random storms) is what makes me think it's possible more could have been done. Helene and the impact areas certainly have their differences from Harvey and the Houston area, which makes the rescue and recovery efforts a bit different in terms of approach/challenges. Still, I know for certain that the National Guard and Army led efforts in my Houston metro town were in full swing 2 days after landfall and while Harvey was still a stalled out TS dumping water on our area.

I don't know anyone that resides in this region, but I also have to wonder if local weather resources had shared the dire predictions for this region. This was most definitely done before Harvey and residents were either prepared or left...which isn't common for this kind of inland flooding impact outside of rising river warnings. Still, there were definitely weather sources out there expecting Helene to be really bad for this region. If it was conveyed to the area, how many discounted it as hype? It's not meant to be insensitive, but a lot storm related casualties come from people not heeding warnings. I've seen posts on social media who are from this region saying that they weren't warned. I can't speak to the truth of that and I know for certain NOAA was showing extreme risk in the area, but at the very least, I wonder if people saw the warnings and just didn't have the perspective on how bad they were thinking it could be.

 

[MGMmjl]

I am such a mix of feelings on this. I grew up on the east coast, lived in Florida for 7 years, have tons of friends and family still in FL, and I've lived in the Houston area for nearly 30 years.

On one hand, it always feels like storm efforts never...and I mean NEVER...go as quickly as we'd like. The reasons why are greatly varied, but some of it is worsened by 1. People on the outside looking in that feel helpless in the face of disaster and wish everyone could receive help immediately without understanding the scope of the obstacles. 2. People living in the middle of it (or have loved ones in it) who feel like they're being forgotten when it's usually just a matter of a. there's too much damage to get to your needs just yet b. there are people with greater issues in line ahead of you.

That being said, I feel like there was enough meteorological warning data to have teams ready to go/in position for these areas before it got bad. The expected flash flood risk map below went out from NOAA on 9/25/2024. It was one of several that went out before landfall (earliest I recall on 9/23) in addition to others with the extremely high projected rainfall totals. I follow a number of weather sources and enthusiasts and most were extremely concerned about the region in pink (and those nearby). The maps and tone among the experts reminded me of the gravity in reporting before Harvey. My Harvey experience (as well as a few random storms) is what makes me think it's possible more could have been done. Helene and the impact areas certainly have their differences from Harvey and the Houston area, which makes the rescue and recovery efforts a bit different in terms of approach/challenges. Still, I know for certain that the National Guard and Army led efforts in my Houston metro town were in full swing 2 days after landfall and while Harvey was still a stalled out TS dumping water on our area.

I don't know anyone that resides in this region, but I also have to wonder if local weather resources had shared the dire predictions for this region. This was most definitely done before Harvey and residents were either prepared or left...which isn't common for this kind of inland flooding impact outside of rising river warnings. Still, there were definitely weather sources out there expecting Helene to be really bad for this region. If it was conveyed to the area, how many discounted it as hype? It's not meant to be insensitive, but a lot storm related casualties come from people not heeding warnings. I've seen posts on social media who are from this region saying that they weren't warned. I can't speak to the truth of that and I know for certain NOAA was showing extreme risk in the area, but at the very least, I wonder if people saw that warnings and just didn't have the perspective on how bad they were thinking it could be.


View attachment 900355

I follow some weather forums online, and it appears that the local TV meteorologists were hitting the flooding risk hard. Granted, the TV markets in the areas hardest hit by the flooding aren't that large, but I saw a lot of dire predictions from an Asheville TV meteorologist. I think it was probably the magnitude of flooding that surprised residents the most. I've read how parts of Asheville flood pretty easily, most of the time nuisance flooding, and just how they were surprised with how bad it was. I saw a video from a webcam in Boone, NC last Friday morning showing one of their downtown streets being flooded. Residents were commenting on how they had never seen that particular road flooded before.

And with a hurricane, I think a lot of the initial coverage goes (understandably) to the landfall and associated impacts with it. Some people may not have considered just how widespread the inland destruction would be.

 

[DCLMP]

So wait, we're saying each disaster is different and basing what happens in one vs another isn't realistic? Who knew? /s

What’s consistent in every disaster is that volunteers are there right away and FEMA takes days. Now they are out of money gee I wonder why.

 

[MGMmjl]

Another stat to show just how rare this event was:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1841895926241059204

 

[jeneric997]

FEMA has to stage far enough away so that they don't get caught in the storm and taken out.

 

[Dan Murphy]

Why are you trying so hard to defend the federal government now?

All I stated there, DC, was that current reactive emergency procedures are influenced and possibly revised by previous failures, as well as successes, involving various past disasters and reactive involvement. Not only here relative to this discussion, a current as well as past hurricane,, but also tornadoes, forest and brush fires, non-hurricane caused floods, etc., etc., etc.

No defense intended, regardless your perception.

 

[Dan Murphy]

What’s consistent in every disaster is that volunteers are there right away and FEMA takes days.

That's generally true, that's the way it works.

Now they are out of money gee I wonder why.

If you contact your congress person on the earlier suggestion, this would be another topic to address with her/him, Congress sets the budgets for FEMA.

 

[DCLMP]

FEMA has to stage far enough away so that they don't get caught in the storm and taken out.

LOL

 

[DCLMP]

That's generally true, that's the way it works.

If you contact your congress person on the earlier suggestion, this would be another topic to address with her/him, Congress sets the budgets for FEMA.

How often do you contact congress Dan? How’s that working out for you.

I get why you think the response has been good which is far from objective. I’ll leave it at that.

 

[NotUrsula]

What’s consistent in every disaster is that volunteers are there right away and FEMA takes days. Now they are out of money gee I wonder why.

FEMA really isn't a rescue operation; their focus is supplying goods and housing to displaced persons and rebuilding infrastructure. Most of the agency is comprised of people who handle endless paperwork. It makes sense that they come in a few days later, though they open their supply warehouses to state responders immediately.

For rescue, the standard is to depend upon state and local fire & police response with help from the State National Guard, the Coast Guard and (later) volunteers. Governor Cooper activated the NC Guard on September 25th, but his initial call-out was only 175 Guardsmen. He has upped the number at least twice since, with 500 on duty as of September 29th, along with all of their available relevant aircraft. (Unfortunately, many National Guard aircraft are actually jet fighters for some strange reason; those are obviously not very helpful for a recovery operation, but NC does have one C5, and it has been transporting FEMA supplies to Asheville for several days now.) Also by the 29th, 5500 Guardsmen from other states had been activated by their respective Governors and were either already in NC or en route.

The troops that Biden has just authorized are not Reservists or Guardsmen, but 1000 members of the Regular Army; this is from yesterday's release from Governor Cooper's office:

The active-duty soldiers are part of an Infantry Battalion Task Force, formed from the XVII Airborne Corps to include members of the 82nd Airborne and other units stationed at Fort Liberty, NC. The task force includes a Forward Support Company with the necessary support structures (fuel, water, mechanics, etc.) to support stabilizing critical lifelines and essential services for communities in North Carolina. Soldiers are assembling and moving to the affected areas within the next 24 hours.

IMO, the biggest problem is down to the fact that there is so much dependence on the cell phone network, so communication channels are crippled. Those towers are fragile, and when they are damaged, service goes out. That wasn't the case with the old landline systems if the cables were buried; a dial handset can generate enough power for a connection even if the power is out in the area. I don't know if FEMA distributes satellite phones, but they should; thousands of them should go out with the supply cargo loads. Sat phones are horribly expensive, but it seems to me that FEMA could loan them out for crises, then get them back and made ready to be used at the next disaster. Some would be lost, of course, but it makes sense to have a centralized emergency phone operation that is not dependent on cell towers.

 

[JLTraveling]

LOL

Why is this funny? During Katrina, they fully expected to have to evacuate a large number of people immediately after the storm. I'm not sure if it was the state or the feds, but someone got the bright idea to bring in a whole fleet of school buses and park them in a lot that "never floods," so they would be ready to start driving people out the minute the storm was over. That lot that "never floods"? It took 20 feet of water. Oops, can't drive flooded buses. So yeah, that's what happens when you stage rescue operations in the MIDDLE of the storm.

 

[North of Mouse]

I am such a mix of feelings on this. I grew up on the east coast, lived in Florida for 7 years, have tons of friends and family still in FL, and I've lived in the Houston area for nearly 30 years.

On one hand, it always feels like storm efforts never...and I mean NEVER...go as quickly as we'd like. The reasons why are greatly varied, but some of it is worsened by 1. People on the outside looking in that feel helpless in the face of disaster and wish everyone could receive help immediately without understanding the scope of the obstacles. 2. People living in the middle of it (or have loved ones in it) who feel like they're being forgotten when it's usually just a matter of a. there's too much damage to get to your needs just yet b. there are people with greater issues in line ahead of you.

That being said, I feel like there was enough meteorological warning data to have teams ready to go/in position for these areas before it got bad. The expected flash flood risk map below went out from NOAA on 9/25/2024. It was one of several that went out before landfall (earliest I recall on 9/23) in addition to others with the extremely high projected rainfall totals. I follow a number of weather sources and enthusiasts and most were extremely concerned about the region in pink (and those nearby). The maps and tone among the experts reminded me of the gravity in reporting before Harvey. My Harvey experience (as well as a few random storms) is what makes me think it's possible more could have been done. Helene and the impact areas certainly have their differences from Harvey and the Houston area, which makes the rescue and recovery efforts a bit different in terms of approach/challenges. Still, I know for certain that the National Guard and Army led efforts in my Houston metro town were in full swing 2 days after landfall and while Harvey was still a stalled out TS dumping water on our area.

I don't know anyone that resides in this region, but I also have to wonder if local weather resources had shared the dire predictions for this region. This was most definitely done before Harvey and residents were either prepared or left...which isn't common for this kind of inland flooding impact outside of rising river warnings. Still, there were definitely weather sources out there expecting Helene to be really bad for this region. If it was conveyed to the area, how many discounted it as hype? It's not meant to be insensitive, but a lot storm related casualties come from people not heeding warnings. I've seen posts on social media who are from this region saying that they weren't warned. I can't speak to the truth of that and I know for certain NOAA was showing extreme risk in the area, but at the very least, I wonder if people saw the warnings and just didn't have the perspective on how bad they were thinking it could be.


View attachment 900355

@TiggerTrigger, reading posts like these upset me very much. I am originally from south LA and saw my share of hurricanes. I now reside in NC and know the disaster region very well. Yes, they were warned, but NO, they had no idea of the monster that was being unleashed on this area - nobody, but nobody could have foreseen even half of the destruction that was unleashed here. I'm, thankfully not in it, but near, and my heart is so breaking. Some towns/villages cannot be reached yet by any way - they have used mules, horses, by foot, ATV's, etc. - any way imaginable, still it's such a slow go.

So, please, don't accuse anyone of not doing what they should have seen beforehand.
A lot of the responders have also lost property or loved ones and still are trying to help. You do not know the terrain at all evidently. Like a poster above said, this cannot be compared to Katrina (except in total destruction) in any way because of WHAT caused it and the terrain of the mountains.

We are hurting and our hearts are heavy. I have friends that have lost so much.

 

[DCLMP]

Why is this funny? During Katrina, they fully expected to have to evacuate a large number of people immediately after the storm. I'm not sure if it was the state or the feds, but someone got the bright idea to bring in a whole fleet of school buses and park them in a lot that "never floods," so they would be ready to start driving people out the minute the storm was over. That lot that "never floods"? It took 20 feet of water. Oops, can't drive flooded buses. So yeah, that's what happens when you stage rescue operations in the MIDDLE of the storm.

It’s been 6 days. No one stated that they go in during the storm. People are trapped and are going to die. The responses to Maui and East Palestine were no better.
Other than the obvious reason. I can’t figure out why people on this forum are OK with this.

 

[Pink Partridge]

I still haven't forgiven George W Bush for his press appearance in the wake of Katrina. Rolled into town, totally disrupting recovery efforts, and set up in Jackson Square with a generator to run the lights. Gave some stupid speech that accomplished nothing, then had his team pack up the freaking generator and they hauled butt out of there. Really? You couldn't even leave the generator???

Not a fan of the man, but how did he totally disrupt rescue efforts?

VP Kamala Harris just set up a news conference in front of a home with a tree through it. In a neighborhood with no electricity. I am sure generators were used, and then taken back by the staff. At no point did I think anything she did was wrong. Or that she disrupted rescue efforts. She did her job.

This is what politicians do. They show up in disaster zones, give their speeches, offer their pledges and promises, and then leave (taking their supplies with them).

 

[dizneegirl]

Hey, at least no one has been throwing rolls of paper towels at the people affected, right?

 

[kdonnel]

That wasn't the case with the old landline systems if the cables were buried; a dial handset can generate enough power for a connection even if the power is out in the area.

That’s not how POTS works. The central office provides the power. If it has no power, no dial tone. Central offices generally have backup generators but if the office or generator are underwater, no dial tone.

 

[jeneric997]

It’s been 6 days. No one stated that they go in during the storm. People are trapped and are going to die. The responses to Maui and East Palestine were no better.
Other than the obvious reason. I can’t figure out why people on this forum are OK with this.

You don't seem to understand the purpose of different government operations. I am in NC, but I am not in the mountains, but I have lived in them. This is not a simple task compacted by a lack of being able to communicate. It isn't like everyone is in a neighborhood with a house every 50 feet. People have been there, first responders, military, volunteers. No one is just sitting on their hands.

When people are in distress, no response is fast enough. I feel helpless because I can't help my daughter's friend get home from the mountains (she's safe and has all she needs, but I'm sure would rather be home). I see post after post of people I know who are trying to find and get supplies to loved ones. I also see the posts when they got help and supplies. Volunteers can make all the posts they want about what they do and they should. That is not the military's job- they just do what they need to.

You say there is an obvious reason- it's not obvious to me.

 

[Dan Murphy]

How often do you contact congress Dan? How’s that working out for you.

No set time frame but I do email my representative and senators regarding issues that concern me, or sometimes to thank or compliment them for various things they have done that I feel are worthy of that thank you or compliment. Sometimes the issues I am concerned about are resolved in my favor, sometimes not. It's like voting. You vote your choice, sometimes your candidate or issue is a winner, sometimes not. If not, you accept it, move on, and try again in the future. It's the American way.

I get why you think the response has been good which is far from objective. I’ll leave it at that.

Not sure of your cryptic message there, DC.