DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Chuck S]

We just passed 1000 this year. Spend a lot of 1-2 days trips to local VGC since we're MK holders. book 3-4 a month every month so each use year has some 10+ reservations any given moment but end up really going 1/month. Will cancel or rent out the days we're not going depending on interest from F+F and FB sites on them.

I miss being close to Disneyland. I was born in Compton and raised in the greater LA area. I even remember riding the original Flying Saucers in Tomorrowland. Now I'm 1/2 way between DL and WDW, near San Antonio.

 

[Disfamwa]

We just passed 1000 this year. Spend a lot of 1-2 days trips to local VGC since we're MK holders. book 3-4 a month every month so each use year has some 10+ reservations any given moment but end up really going 1/month. Will cancel or rent out the days we're not going depending on interest from F+F and FB sites on them.

This is especially true for Oct and nov for us since OBB ticket dates are the great unknown on getting we have some 8 reservations that month alone. If OBB were given real MK+DVC priorities, we'd book a heck lot less dates (HINT DISNEY IF YOU"RE READING!).

Defining commercial would help us determine our own priorities and adjust accordingly.

This is true for a lot of west coasters in Socal and I presume locals in Orlando area with APs that have fun getaways.

It sounds like you are one of the ones at VGC in that Facebook group who book low point studios and rent them out for $30 per point. If you are scooping up low point studio reservations, staying in your reservations 1/4 of the time and renting out the rest as confirmed reservations based on the ability to find a customer, I view you as a commercial renter.

 

[RuntheMouse]

I wonder what percentage of owners actually book more than 1-3 trips per year? And then just work from the list that book more than that, and figure out who is renting commercially.

We do. I currently have 4 trips booked consisting of 8 reservations and we’re not through our points yet.

 

[nalababybear]

It sounds like you are one of the ones at VGC in that Facebook group who book low point studios and rent them out for $30 per point. If you are scooping up low point studio reservations, staying in your reservations 1/4 of the time and renting out the rest as confirmed reservations based on the ability to find a customer, I view you as a commercial renter.

Lol. 30 per point is funny.

Less than half of our points go to local vgc. Rest is aul and wdw. You do you.

Clear example where the need for Disney to define what they believe is commercial so that folk can be clear and not feel the need to go vigilante Karen trolling.

 

[xdan0920]

Defining commercial would help us determine our own priorities and adjust accordingly.

I’d define what you are doing as commercial.

 

[Disfamwa]

Lol. 30 per point is funny.

Less than half of our points go to local vgc. Rest is aul and wdw. You do you.

Clear example where the need for Disney to define what they believe is commercial so that folk can be clear and not feel the need to go vigilante Karen trolling.

I am not a vigilante trolling you lol I have no idea who you are and am not trying to get you in trouble with anyone.

You’ve repeatedly expressed your opinion that you’re skeptical of any changes to stop commercial renting. To have a genuine discussion it’s nice to be clear the stakes that each party has in the decisions.

You just gave an example of rental behavior that you think isn’t commercial use, but I think would be. I’m not sure what other people would think.

When you rent out confirmed reservations do you base your price on what the Grand is charging? Do you advertise your price vs the Grands price? These are genuine questions.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I'm just guessing but...

I don't think Disney cares about those with 20 or so reservations per year.

...........

I'm guessing these are the folks Disney might go after first.

Personal experience says you are incorrect.

They've checked me out. The only time I've done a number of rentals in a year was during Covid when my husband was going thru chemo for lung cancer and it was not possible for us to travel. Since then there's a couple of people I had continued to rent to once or twice a year. And how did this scrutiny come about? When I wanted to purchase points direct during the VGF sellout. They stopped the sale to me and took 2-3 weeks to comb thru everything. Not that I went over 20 rentals in those years we couldn't travel anyway. Normally I go 2-4 times in a year to WDW and the odd visit to DL. Sometimes more than one room as I'll travel with a number of family members and we used to do studios but have mostly switched to larger villas so more often now it's just one room and I'm in it too.

It's nice to think this won't cause members who aren't commercial renters an inconvenience but it will. At least in my case it was the inconvenience of not giving them money as soon as I thought I would.

 

[zavandor]

If they go with something similar to what Wyndam does and Brian reporter, it's easy to defined high demand periods: allow unlimited (or very high, like the current 20) rentals booked under 7 months and only 2 at 11 months.

Also, they could have a whitelist for guests where members could add children or friends they travel often with. There would be limits how often one chan change that list.

 

[VGCgroupie]

We just passed 1000 this year. Spend a lot of 1-2 days trips to local VGC since we're MK holders. book 3-4 a month every month so each use year has some 10+ reservations any given moment but end up really going 1/month. Will cancel or rent out the days we're not going depending on interest from F+F and FB sites on them.

This is especially true for Oct and nov for us since OBB ticket dates are the great unknown on getting we have some 8 reservations that month alone. If OBB were given real MK+DVC priorities, we'd book a heck lot less dates (HINT DISNEY IF YOU"RE READING!).

Defining commercial would help us determine our own priorities and adjust accordingly.

This is true for a lot of west coasters in Socal and I presume locals in Orlando area with APs that have fun getaways.

I feel the pain of not knowing when special events are. OBB is actually pretty easy to predict, but after dark events aren't as much. You can however book like you have been and then cancel what you dont use rather than rent them out.

 

[nalababybear]

I am not vigilante trolling you lol I have no idea who you are and am not trying to get you in trouble with anyone.

You’ve repeatedly expressed your opinion that you’re skeptical of any changes to stop commercial renting. To have a genuine discussion it’s nice to be clear the stakes that each party has in the decisions.

You just gave an example of rental behavior that you think isn’t commercial use, but I think would be. I’m not sure what other people would think.

When you rent out confirmed reservations do you base your price on what the Grand is charging? Do you advertise your price vs the Grands price? These are genuine questions.

Yet you suggest and advocate infiltrating FB groups to do just that. You do you.

I do believe that Disney has the legal right to define and enforce what commercial renting is. I also believe that it tactics allows folk to buy/rent/sell multiples of things Disney to help satisfy the insatiable consumerism of what Disney is.

I have said before if you get rid of large volume rentals, the high desirable rooms will still be extremely to get. We own at AKL. I've never gotten club level. I don't expect to either unless I commit to multi times a day trolling DVC site which I have much better things to do and be happy with our Savannah view and eat at Sanaa.

Disney has a great product with DVC that's desirable and beyond the reach of long term owners. There's a market for rentals. Disney knows that and does quite well with its cash side of DVC properties. I truly believe if that occupancy rate being impacted, Disney WILL go after high volume level rentors first before defining commercial rules in clear public manners -- enforcing in the grey allows them such flexibility but is frustrating to those who care about sweating the little things.

I define commercial as whatever Disney defines it and will stay below that line below they choose.

I happen to rent because it's easy and we have the rooms already. It pays for the fees and our addiction. We price between 20 and 25 per point and that's 50%+ off room rates and great deal for those who want those.

Doing this has fueled our Disney addiction even more, so is the Disney intent. If they keep high occupancies that's their goal, whatever we do otherwise really I bet they really don't care to manage

 

[dvcsince93]

lWe just passed 1000 this year. Spend a lot of 1-2 days trips to local VGC since we're MK holders. book 3-4 a month every month so each use year has some 10+ reservations any given moment but end up really going 1/month. Will cancel or rent out the days we're not going depending on interest from F+F and FB sites on them.

This is especially true for Oct and nov for us since OBB ticket dates are the great unknown on getting we have some 8 reservations that month alone. If OBB were given real MK+DVC priorities, we'd book a heck lot less dates (HINT DISNEY IF YOU"RE READING!).

Defining commercial would help us determine our own priorities and adjust accordingly.

This is true for a lot of west coasters in Socal and I presume locals in Orlando area with APs that have fun getaways

I agree that DVC needs to define commercial renter if it is serious about addressing the issue. I'm not sure that counting reservations would be my method of choice, but its not gonna be my choice and I don't rent so I am not sure I fully understand the issue.

Do you make/rent extra reservations at AUL or your WDW resorts, or just VGC because you live near DL?

AKV CL and Studios at VGC both seem to have similar reserving challenges (and I don't own and haven't reserved either), do you feel the need to troll the DVC website or walk your reservations for VGC?

 

[nalababybear]

I feel the pain of not knowing when special events are. OBB is actually pretty easy to predict, but after dark events aren't as much. You can however book like you have been and then cancel what you dont use rather than rent them out.

Yep easy to cancel. Easy to rent too so why not?

I don't besmirch those standing in line and buy four popcorn buckets to sell three on ebay. Disney lets them, so they are happy to spread the Disney empire to others.

I agree that DVC needs to define commercial renter if it is serious about addressing the issue. I'm not sure that counting reservations would be my method of choice, but its not gonna be my choice and I don't rent so I am not sure I fully understand the issue.

Do you make/rent extra reservations at AUL or your WDW resorts, or just VGC because you live near DL?

AKV CL and Studios at VGC both seem to have similar reserving challenges (and I don't own and haven't reserved either), do you feel the need to troll the DVC website or walk your reservations for VGC?

Too lazy for that. 11months is rather easy except specific days like race weekends, Disney bday, candlelight. 1br are fine but point hogs for what we need with short stays.

Yeah only rent out vgc since I've already made them. Our aul points and akl are our regular stays. Blowing through 250+ in jan aul .

 

[Disfamwa]

Yet you suggest and advocate infiltrating FB groups to do just that. You do you.

I do believe that Disney has the legal right to define and enforce what commercial renting is. I also believe that it tactics allows folk to buy/rent/sell multiples of things Disney to help satisfy the insatiable consumerism of what Disney is.

I have said before if you get rid of large volume rentals, the high desirable rooms will still be extremely to get. We own at AKL. I've never gotten club level. I don't expect to either unless I commit to multi times a day trolling DVC site which I have much better things to do and be happy with our Savannah view and eat at Sanaa.

Disney has a great product with DVC that's desirable and beyond the reach of long term owners. There's a market for rentals. Disney knows that and does quite well with its cash side of DVC properties. I truly believe if that occupancy rate being impacted, Disney WILL go after high volume level rentors first before defining commercial rules in clear public manners -- enforcing in the grey allows them such flexibility but is frustrating to those who care about sweating the little things.

I define commercial as whatever Disney defines it and will stay below that line below they choose.

I happen to rent because it's easy and we have the rooms already. It pays for the fees and our addiction. We price between 20 and 25 per point and that's 50%+ off room rates and great deal for those who want those.

Doing this has fueled our Disney addiction even more, so is the Disney intent. If they keep high occupancies that's their goal, whatever we do otherwise really I bet they really don't care to manage

The fact you are so bothered by me saying people who are upset by the egregious speculative confirmed rentals by a select group of owners should let Disney know with examples is interesting. I’m guessing it’s because I used the word infiltrate, but you and I both know the mods all read disboards and wouldn’t let people in because the mods know their behavior is commercial. There are lots of owners in the groups who I would not categorize as commercial renters, but the mods are some of the savviest commercial renters in the game.

I enjoy being able to rent from other owners when I don’t have enough points. However, because of attitudes that some people seem to have that they can engage in clearly commercial activity until Disney says otherwise, we might end up with stricter rules than most people (including me) want. You know what I’ll do if I’m not able to rent points? I’ll either buy more points or stay on cash. I wouldn’t be so sure that Disney sees commercial renters as doing DVC a service by filling rooms.

I didn’t buy expensive direct points (and won’t buy anymore) to compete with commercial renters for the best value in the system—so I let DVC know as much. I bought a contract under the assumption I would not be competing with small and large businesses because of the contract I signed. I expect DVC to enforce the contract terms.

We clearly aren’t going to see eye to eye, but I genuinely do appreciate you being honest about how you use and think of your points as an owner.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I enjoy being able to rent from other owners when I don’t have enough points. However, because of attitudes that some people seem to have that they can engage in clearly commercial activity until Disney says otherwise, we might end up with stricter rules than most people (including me) want. You know what I’ll do if I’m not able to rent points? I’ll either buy more points or stay on cash. I wouldn’t be so sure that Disney sees commercial renters as doing DVC a service by filling rooms.

Disney absolutely does NOT see commercial DVC renters as “doing them a service” ESPECIALLY when they are booking studios that will fill with owners no matter what (VGC, BWV, BCV, AUL hotel, AKV value and club, RIV standard) *and* simultaneously undercut their hotel bookings and rates.

I didn’t buy expensive direct points (and won’t buy anymore) to compete with commercial renters for the best value in the system—so I let DVC know as much. I bought a contract under the assumption I would not be competing with small and large businesses because of the contract I signed. I expect DVC to enforce the contract terms.

Preach! It’s not just that their huge number of points (and sophistication) give them an advantage, but the for profit renters have developed software that can beat actual human owners at 8:00:00AM 99.9% of the time at 11mo, which exacerbates walking and can even make it hard to start a walk.

We clearly aren’t going to see eye to eye, but I genuinely do appreciate you being honest about how you use and think of your points as an owner.

Just wanted to add that I have always liked @nalababybear, appreciate their honesty, and don’t necessarily think what they are doing is commercial. But I do loathe the people who buy 3-4 of an item just to sell it for 2-3x the price on eBay, but I think commercial renters going for $30/pt are even worse.

I wonder if Disney could just cap rental fees at $15-20/pt (varying based on dues)…enough to recoup your dues and $3-5 beyond, but not so much that it’s worth it to start a biz screwing other DVC owners.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I miss being close to Disneyland. I was born in Compton and raised in the greater LA area. I even remember riding the original Flying Saucers in Tomorrowland. Now I'm 1/2 way between DL and WDW, near San Antonio.

Sounds hot….

 

[zavandor]

Disney absolutely does NOT see commercial DVC renters as “doing them a service” ESPECIALLY when they are booking studios that will fill with owners no matter what (VGC, BWV, BCV, AUL hotel, AKV value and club, RIV standard) *and* simultaneously undercut their hotel bookings and rates.

I agree. I bet DVC would be delighted to ban renting completely. But they cannot, because of Floriday law.
I do appreciate the possibility of renting out the leftover points I don't use, but I also think commercial renters should be banned (possibly with little to no impact to the common owner).

 

[nalababybear]

The fact you are so bothered by me saying people who are upset by the egregious speculative confirmed rentals by a select group of owners should let Disney know with examples is interesting. I’m guessing it’s because I used the word infiltrate, but you and I both know the mods all read disboards and wouldn’t let people in because the mods know their behavior is commercial. There are lots of owners in the groups who I would not categorize as commercial renters, but the mods are some of the savviest commercial renters in the game.

I enjoy being able to rent from other owners when I don’t have enough points. However, because of attitudes that some people seem to have that they can engage in clearly commercial activity until Disney says otherwise, we might end up with stricter rules than most people (including me) want. You know what I’ll do if I’m not able to rent points? I’ll either buy more points or stay on cash. I wouldn’t be so sure that Disney sees commercial renters as doing DVC a service by filling rooms.

I didn’t buy expensive direct points (and won’t buy anymore) to compete with commercial renters for the best value in the system—so I let DVC know as much. I bought a contract under the assumption I would not be competing with small and large businesses because of the contract I signed. I expect DVC to enforce the contract terms.

We clearly aren’t going to see eye to eye, but I genuinely do appreciate you being honest about how you use and think of your points as an owner.

Just really don't care for folk trying to police things thinking it makes any significant difference aside of being a thorn. Again, you do you.

I can tell confidently say that FB Admin folk are more interested in keeping out scammers than worry about things out of their control like DVC board decisions and certainly not anonymous disboard members trying to stir things up -- they just ban those folk after it's clear they aren't there to be productive members to that board.

DVC will make the rules. If anything, much of the rules being floated here are way more than what I've seen even remotely mentioned; but then again Disney came down HARD on the DAS community, so there's that.

Disney clearly have mentioned publicly about their desirable theme park visitors. The once-in-lifetime spend thousands totally in the bubble types. As a DVC/MK owner that really doesn't do much aside from eating food and hanging out, soaking in the Disney vibe and not buying any merch at all -- we're no that.

IMHO, if Disney wants to significantly constrain rentals, they will more likely than not constrain those type of visitors staying within the Disney bubble. They have the data. They are business folk. They will act if DVC rentals are impacting their bottom line, and that's totally fair and up to Disney. Their company. May help break our addiction.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Disney absolutely does NOT see commercial DVC renters as “doing them a service” ESPECIALLY when they are booking studios that will fill with owners no matter what (VGC, BWV, BCV, AUL hotel, AKV value and club, RIV standard) *and* simultaneously undercut their hotel bookings and rates.

Preach! It’s not just that their huge number of points (and sophistication) give them an advantage, but the for profit renters have developed software that can beat actual human owners at 8:00:00AM 99.9% of the time at 11mo, which exacerbates walking and can even make it hard to start a walk.

Just wanted to add that I have always liked @nalababybear, appreciate their honesty, and don’t necessarily think what they are doing is commercial. But I do loathe the people who buy 3-4 of an item just to sell it for 2-3x the price on eBay, but I think commercial renters going for $30/pt are even worse.

I wonder if Disney could just cap rental fees at $15-20/pt (varying based on dues)…enough to recoup your dues and $3-5 beyond, but not so much that it’s worth it to start a biz screwing other DVC owners.

If you own points exclusively to rent for a profit and do so regularly (even if you use the proceeds to pay dues) then in my opinion that is a commercial activity. Does it bother me? Not unless it is spec renting.

When you can’t find a park exclusive Crislu marquee necklace that launched while you are at the park because you learn that scalpers line up outside the store at 7am to buy them up and put them on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/326224733666 ) for a 200% to 300% mark up…. pisses….me….off….

Someone who lines up at 7am to buy 4 of those same necklaces because they want to give them as gifts for family members or friends….. no issues….

 

[nalababybear]

Disney absolutely does NOT see commercial DVC renters as “doing them a service” ESPECIALLY when they are booking studios that will fill with owners no matter what (VGC, BWV, BCV, AUL hotel, AKV value and club, RIV standard) *and* simultaneously undercut their hotel bookings and rates.

Preach! It’s not just that their huge number of points (and sophistication) give them an advantage, but the for profit renters have developed software that can beat actual human owners at 8:00:00AM 99.9% of the time at 11mo, which exacerbates walking and can even make it hard to start a walk.

Just wanted to add that I have always liked @nalababybear, appreciate their honesty, and don’t necessarily think what they are doing is commercial. But I do loathe the people who buy 3-4 of an item just to sell it for 2-3x the price on eBay, but I think commercial renters going for $30/pt are even worse.

I wonder if Disney could just cap rental fees at $15-20/pt (varying based on dues)…enough to recoup your dues and $3-5 beyond, but not so much that it’s worth it to start a biz screwing other DVC owners.

Yeah, America sometimes likes to make a buck. Better than the person looking for a handout IMHO. I just vote with my hard earned dollars -- don't like them, don't buy from them. If enough people do it, the practice will stop because the profits will stop.

There's been lots of discussion on the value of renting. For the casual not 24/7 time dedicated folk, taking the capital and putting in an index fund will outperform DVC ownership without even doing any work beyond the initial investment buy. Only if you scale this to big time management will it make economic sense.

The thing is DVC ownership -- it's a LONG term commit --decades long -- AND it's a product that's largely family oriented. Many owners have gap years. We're waiting our time between adult kids and grandkids were we anticipate heavy 2BR usage and want to hang onto our points. If DVC goes to narrowly define commercial renting. That's fine. We'll probably sell a portion in the meantime to match points up more appropriately and with MMB that's a way forward to do just that; and rebuy if appropriate when the time comes for higher consistent usage. Not a big deal for us. It'll probably make more financial sense too along with addonitis addiction. --- it's very real if you stop making it easy to love Disney....and we do (just back from Mufasa today).

 

[nalababybear]

If you own points exclusively to rent for a profit and do so regularly (even if you use the proceeds to pay dues) then in my opinion that is a commercial activity. Does it bother me? Not unless it is spec renting.

When you can’t find a park exclusive Crislu marquee necklace that launched while you are at the park because you learn that scalpers line up outside the store at 7am to buy them up and put them on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/326224733666 ) for a 200% to 300% mark up…. pisses….me….off….

Someone who lines up at 7am to buy 4 of those same necklaces because they want to give them as gifts for family members or friends….. no issues….

Crazy stuff people do---and buy. Then again, we're DVC and MK holders so there's our own special crazy.

We'd be happy to get an invite to Club 33.

Meh, let them do whatever. Life too short to get mad at what are beyond our sphere of influence. Guess I'm too much a Pumbaa