DVC plans to target commercial renters

[VGCgroupie]

If you have an opinion which is not in favor of DVC making a change because “be careful what you wish for” then automatically you become a commercial renter

Wow just wow.


So there are tons of people whining, you state that as facts? Assuming you are correct, tons would be like 1-4.000 members, what about the remaining 246.000 members who are not whining and are satisfied? Should 4.000 whining members try and convince DVC to make a change which might not be in favor of all members but only the whining ones?

Stating that just because someone isn't in the disboards doesn't mean that they aren't out there and also dont like commercial renting. When I say "tons" I guess I should a say a majority of those who expressed their feelings about it did not like it and it wasn't just 15 people talking. Id be willing to bet the majority of people not whining don't know that commercial renting exists, if they did, they likely would also whine about it.

Commercial renting is a problem weather you think it is or not is irrelevant. If it were not a problem DVC would not have ever brought it up at a meeting. Disney has more important things to do than create a fake taskforce and create drama within its members for something that is no big deal.

 

[Sandisw]

We’ve talked across each other a few times but I want to try to explain it one more time because I think it’s key— if Disney is looking for a way to define commercial activity that is reasonable and objective, renting the highest profitability and most in demand rooms and times they are most desired (for owners and renters) is definitionally commercial. Sure once in a few years one of the reservations you can’t use might happen to be a BW studio during food and wine. But if you’re regularly spec renting then, it’s because you’re doing it as a commercial activity. We all know there are a handful of room types specifically targeted by renters and maximizing profit is the reason.

Lowlight, if you cannot make 9 minutes to watch a video on 2x speed, how are you possible going to make the 5 minutes twice a week for several weeks necessary to walk?

I agree option 2 is legally commercial renting but in less confident about how Disney sees it yet. I would be surprised if they think it’s worth the effort to target owners who are under 1000 points and actually use more than half of their points in the first wave— but I also don’t think they needed to hire a team of people (or anybody!) to look at solving the problem if they were going to shut down the ~10 obvious worst offenders and call it a day. My guess is that “Type 2” enforcement starts with people renting several hundred points (or more) of the most in demand studios…but I’m not sure if that means 700 or 7000, I’d guess somewhere in between.

Boy are you going to be happy with the new restricted resale product.

The thing is a lot of people sitting on 1000-2000 points don’t self-identify as as top 1% of members, but my guess is that the entire category of people who own more than 500 points total is “not widespread” — so I wouldn’t find that language reassuring if I owned more than 1000 points and rented half of them. I think they could stop all renters renting more than a few hundred points a year and it would be a tiny fraction of the membership.

Let me just be sure I am understanding your one point…please correct me if I did!

Those who own at resorts with high demand rooms would have a different set of rules for spec renting than those that don’t?

So, if a BWV SV room is popular, then owners at that resort would be considered using their as a commercial purpose because they list that room? Yet a BLT owner who decided to spec rent a LV room would not?

Shouldn’t it be about the frequency of rentals vs the type of room?

I simply do not see why certain owners at certain resorts should have a different set of rules on what renting is considered okay and what is not.

And, until an owner puts a reservation in the name of someone else, it can’t be flagged as a rental can it?

That’s why it’s hard for me to see how spec renting vs not spec renting matters.

Again, where we differ is in using the word commercial to make it fit the situations that people feel should be stopped.

Every single rental can fall under a very narrow scope of the word commercial if one wants to define it that way.

But that isn’t really what the contract was written to limit…it was written to prevent people from turning DVC into a business and as an owner, that’s what I expect DVC to identify and stop.

I simply will be shocked to see DVC set different rules for what constitutes using a membership commercially based on room type or when a renter was secured.

I have also said that large point owners are the ones that the board specifically mentioned in their statements and to me, those are your owners with 1500/2000 or more points.

If they are renting a lot of those points out regularly, DVC could indeed decide that is above the threshold…simply don’t think it will matter what resort they own or how they secure renters because DVC doesn’t need to make it that complicated.

I understand that others have a different view on how the word commercial should be applied to DVC…

I simply believe it’s about volume of reservations that shifts it because all these definitions of commercial can apply to any rental…even one…

If the primary goal of a membership is to use it for vacations, then any renting that might be happening IMO is within bounds.

We shall see what and how DVC decides to apply it.

ETA: One place DVC can and should start are with LLCs…those fit under the umbrella of a commercial enterprise and the contract already states rules around that.

If there is an owner out there who decided to put their membership into one for a different reason, then they may be out of luck in terms of their ability to rent.

 

[Sandisw]

There are people in forums elsewhere that may not be here on disboards that have discussed this. Tons of people want them to crack down on commercial renting, the only ones I saw that think there isn’t a problem with commercial renting were people who actively rent out for profit.

Everyone here has said DVC should be enforcing the commercial renting aspect of the contract.

The difference is that some want that definition to be very narrow and limit renting in ways some of us don’t feel should be considered commercial in terms of the contract.

Some, like me, want and hope DVC continues to set rules regarding commercial that distinguish between those renting because they running it as a business and those renting for personal reasons.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

I simply do not see why certain owners at certain resorts should have a different set of rules on what renting is considered okay and what is not.

I don’t think they would do this. The simplest way to stop those who choose to spec rent the hardest to book and most profitable rooms/resorts is to not allow spec renting at all. How they do that is up to the people who get paid hundred of thousands of dollars at DVD to literally fix these types of problems. Now do I think they’ll do this? Doubt it. But if they did, it wouldn’t have to be a policy that singles out certain resorts and rooms. Rent with your points within the identified amount allowed but no one is allowed to spec rent, simple enough.

 

[RickNJane]

Wow lively thread. I agree that if commercial renting was not an issue, DVC would not have brought it up at the meetings. I believe they did this to prepare us for changes that may be coming in the (hopefully) near future. They could also be fishing for ideas, but I kinda doubt it.

What ever they do, I hope it is simple. I do agree that 25% of the folks will be pissed off, 25% will be pleased and the rest really won't notice.

I found it interesting that people brought up BWV as an issue. We almost never have problems with getting a reservation. We usually go for 10-14 days and rent a 1 bedroom pool view. So I was unaware of the issue.

I also agree with doing something about Spec or commercial renting first and then see what happens to walking.

Always count on these boards for great (and civil) conversations.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Everyone here has said DVC should be enforcing the commercial renting aspect of the contract.

The difference is that some want that definition to be very narrow and limit renting in ways some of us don’t feel should be considered commercial in terms of the contract.

Some, like me, want and hope DVC continues to set rules regarding commercial that distinguish between those renting because they running it as a business and those renting for personal reasons.

I dont disagree with you. My comment was based off what I took the previous poster of saying DVC shouldn't change anything because of a couple people whining about it.

 

[AstroBlasters]

You don't want to be labeled as a commercial renter for being opposed to it, but everyone who supports it is a whiner? Hmm.

Let's examine the reasons someone would defend renting:

1) Be careful what you wish for, aka the cure is worse than the disease
2) You're a renter

Let's examine the reasons someone would be against renting:

1) Renting harms all owners in tangible and intangible ways, whether they realize it or not

Nobody has really defended the "be careful what you wish for" argument, though. Using what other timeshares have done to curb commercial renting, courtesy of Brian Noble, none of it appears "worse than the disease" UNLESS you are renting for profit. So make your argument, what reasonable regulation on renting is a "careful what you wish for" scenario, and why are we whiners?

“Renting harms all owners in tangible and intangible ways, whether they realize it or not”

Nope. The points are going to be used anyways.

 

[Sandisw]

I don’t think they would do this. The simplest way to stop those who choose to spec rent the hardest to book and most profitable rooms/resorts is to not allow spec renting at all. How they do that is up to the people who get paid hundred of thousands of dollars at DVD to literally fix these types of problems. Now do I think they’ll do this? Doubt it. But if they did, it wouldn’t have to be a policy that singles out certain resorts and rooms. Rent with your points within the identified amount allowed but no one is allowed to spec rent, simple enough.

I can't see them doing it either, especially since I think it would be much easier for them to put in place other things that already exist in the system to help prevent both those owners who have captialized on renting those hard to get rooms for maximum profit and walking of them as well

 

[Cyberc1978]

Commercial renting is a problem weather you think it is or not is irrelevant. If it were not a problem DVC would not have ever brought it up at a meeting. Disney has more important things to do than create a fake taskforce and create drama within its members for something that is no big deal.

I’m not saying that Disney don’t think commercial renting is a problem. However there is a huge difference between commercial renting being s problem for the membership in general or for Disney.

I think the truth is somewhere in between, but mainly Disneys bottom line at the moderate hotels are impacted. Now they have decided to do something about it. If Disney was able to easily fill their hotels then I don’t think they care.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I actually bought 2 resale RIV contracts specifically because I want to stay at RIV so it doesn't bother me that the points can't be used elsewhere. I've got other points that I can use to book else if I want to, but it has been 6 years since I've booked a non-home resort.

Personally, while I am not impacted the resale restrictions, I don't like them. These days you need a chart to keep track of what you can do based on when, where and how you bought your points and that stinks and makes the product harder to use.

I also think that DVC should not be allowed to trade into RIV the number of points that can trade out.

Oh, I was jokingly replying to what I thought was a joking comment from you, but I agree with everything you said there. Owning where you want to stay is the way to go and I would be more comfortable buying restricted resorts (as resale but also as direct) if there were only as many inbound transfers permitted as outbound transfers. I am worried that restricted resale owners who can’t book more than 7 months in advance could really suffer if they don’t, and by extension, more people will be aggressively trying to walk/hold rooms at the 11mo mark.

“Renting harms all owners in tangible and intangible ways, whether they realize it or not”

Nope. The points are going to be used anyways.

So I guess I agree with what you literally wrote, but I think the quoted poster meant to suggest that large scale for-profit rentals (and spec rentals in particular) harm all owners, in which case I have to agree with them, because if there weren’t 1,000,0000 points for rent by the usual suspect entities, individual owners could get a higher price per point on the periodic occasions where we need to rent.

I guess commercial owners stripping and flipping contracts arguably helps existing owners but it definitely hurts new buyers as well. Even though I think I am done buying points and plan to sell more than I purchase (at least until a new EPCOT or DLR resort goes on sale, restricted reflections holds zero appeal for me), I still think Disney should be putting existing owners and folks buying in ahead of folks trying to leave.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Lets assume I put all my reservations into names of other people. For argument let’s say it’s 18 just under the last known threshold.

Is that commercial renting or am I just letting friends and family use my membership? Or is it a combination of both?

How can YOU tell and how should DVC tell them apart?

If 10 of those 18 reservations was listed on a rental website, would that be considered commercial renting or within the rules? I mean should I rent I would definitely try and rent the most desirable rooms during the most desirable time to increase whatever money I can make.

Next, just because something is listed for rent does not mean it will actually rent - I could end up gifting it to friends and family.

In honesty DVC needs to take all of that into account, the world is not necessarily black and white.

I agree if I listed them all for rent at a website, and DVC monitored that site then they could at least flag my reservations. But in honesty would DVC really spend resources doing that? Even with data mining someone needs to go through the flagged data.

All resources comes out of DVCs own pocket. In theory they could move resources between departments - in that case DVC would start to make decisions which is bad for the membership, meaning if they remove CMs from the call center and have them go through flagged data then the phone/chat wait time would increase.

What I could see them easily do is going after the LLC’s. There is no way they can claim it’s for friends and family. At checkin guests should show proof of employment - don’t think renters would be participate in fraud where you need to show fake documents.

 

[lowlight]

“Renting harms all owners in tangible and intangible ways, whether they realize it or not”

Nope. The points are going to be used anyways.

The context was commercial renting.

 

[lowlight]

Lets assume I put all my reservations into names of other people. For argument let’s say it’s 18 just under the last known threshold.

You’re making this too difficult. Nobody uses their DVC membership this way. I’m not sure why we always default to these insane what if scenarios. If you’re the .001% of people that have thousands of points and play DVC Santa gifting them to people far and wide, yup, you’d be affected negatively I guess.

 

[Judique]

I haven't read the last 10 pages and I'm going back to read them shortly.

This morning I decided to check out Dec 1 availability across all resorts. I've been a member for 24+ years and the last 4-5 I have had some problems getting what I wanted in November and December. With the exception of the past year, I've eventually pieced together a reservation at Boardwalk. This past year I didn't get all the days I wanted, but was able to last minute get a couple of nights at the new cabins, so that was good.

Checked ALL resorts this morning and without exception, every studio in 'resort' category was gone for that date at the moment I was checking about 7:55 am. With the exception of maybe 6 resorts (Riviera preferred view, Poly preferred studios -(ALL duo studios were gone) GF Resort View and Theme park view, Kidani, OKW, Saratoga) still had some availability in preferred views OKW and SS seemed to more available. Wish I'd taken notes.

My point is that the decease is spreading so that not 'just' myself at BW and others at AKV are affected. I went to book BCV and it was gone. First time for me not to get that with my 11 month opportunity. It's been my fall back along with garden view or even BW view at Boardwalk.

I actually feel a bit better now, strange as that may seem. Now I'm going back to see whether Dec 1 has popped back up since it's now past 8am.

 

[Sandisw]

You’re making this too difficult. Nobody uses their DVC membership this way. I’m not sure why we always default to these insane what if scenarios. If you’re the .001% of people that have thousands of points and play DVC Santa gifting them to people far and wide, yup, you’d be affected negatively I guess.

Some of us do use our memberships for others. I gifted 10 nights to family and friends this year.

The point is that no matter what people think, DVC can be used for both guests and renters, as well as owners.

Take that same scenario and reduce the number to 10…is that a reasonable threshold to say that you can be presumed to be using it commercially?

DVC could very easily decide yes,,,but they could also decide no given that there are over 75k memberships…if I am remembering my data correctly…and that is too low to flag them all to review.

So, where does the true context of commercial lie in the world of DVC?

DVC will have to at least consider all of this when choosing to go after owners who they accuse of violating the contract

While you seem to want DVC to curb renting in general, even if impacts the average owner, some of us want the rules and intent of the contract to be when it comes to defining commercial adhered to in a reasonable way.

If they take the large players out, especially those who are LLCs, who have capitalized on renting high demand rooms, then there is no need to do more.

As you said, lets not complicate it.

The rental market is going to be huge even if the average owner’s rents occasionally.

ETA: If DVC wants to sell this as something to make memories with your family, they certainly don’t want to make rules that appear to go against that.

 

[lowlight]

I haven't read the last 10 pages and I'm going back to read them shortly.

This morning I decided to check out Dec 1 availability across all resorts. I've been a member for 24+ years and the last 4-5 I have had some problems getting what I wanted in November and December. With the exception of the past year, I've eventually pieced together a reservation at Boardwalk. This past year I didn't get all the days I wanted, but was able to last minute get a couple of nights at the new cabins, so that was good.

Checked ALL resorts this morning and without exception, every studio in 'resort' category was gone for that date at the moment I was checking about 7:55 am. With the exception of maybe 6 resorts (Riviera preferred view, Poly preferred studios -(ALL duo studios were gone) GF Resort View and Theme park view, Kidani, OKW, Saratoga) still had some availability in preferred views OKW and SS seemed to more available. Wish I'd taken notes.

My point is that the decease is spreading so that not 'just' myself at BW and others at AKV are affected. I went to book BCV and it was gone. First time for me not to get that with my 11 month opportunity. It's been my fall back along with garden view or even BW view at Boardwalk.

I actually feel a bit better now, strange as that may seem. Now I'm going back to see whether Dec 1 has popped back up since it's now past 8am.

Yes, the first week of December was brutal last year. This year, the rooms have been walked since November first at least, when I started checking. You can bet next year is going to be even worse. It’s not a widespread problem though, so don’t worry.

 

[Sandisw]

I haven't read the last 10 pages and I'm going back to read them shortly.

This morning I decided to check out Dec 1 availability across all resorts. I've been a member for 24+ years and the last 4-5 I have had some problems getting what I wanted in November and December. With the exception of the past year, I've eventually pieced together a reservation at Boardwalk. This past year I didn't get all the days I wanted, but was able to last minute get a couple of nights at the new cabins, so that was good.

Checked ALL resorts this morning and without exception, every studio in 'resort' category was gone for that date at the moment I was checking about 7:55 am. With the exception of maybe 6 resorts (Riviera preferred view, Poly preferred studios -(ALL duo studios were gone) GF Resort View and Theme park view, Kidani, OKW, Saratoga) still had some availability in preferred views OKW and SS seemed to more available. Wish I'd taken notes.

My point is that the decease is spreading so that not 'just' myself at BW and others at AKV are affected. I went to book BCV and it was gone. First time for me not to get that with my 11 month opportunity. It's been my fall back along with garden view or even BW view at Boardwalk.

I actually feel a bit better now, strange as that may seem. Now I'm going back to see whether Dec 1 has popped back up since it's now past 8am.

Of course things are going fast…it’s December booking. I am leaving this but please don’t share any more specifics of what is available.

Now, while you struck out, I got my RIV RV studio for three nights. No walking and on the first try this year. Last year, I had to follow behind.

While I am sure some could be planning to rent, I see this as more of a demand issue then a commercial renting one

 

[lowlight]

Now, while you struck out, I got my RIV RV studio for three nights. No walking and on the first try this year. Last year, I had to follow behind.

Sandi…I have been checking Riv RV since Nov 1. It hasn’t been available since then, and didn’t open up at 8 am today. As in, no opening to start walking if you weren’t already walking. I checked 5 times a day for the past 30 days. I know, because I wanted to book it. How can you have such a different experience to me? How did you find an opening when it’s been walked for over a month? I am taking you at face value, but it just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Sandisw]

Sandi…I have been checking Riv RV since Nov 1. It hasn’t been available since then, and didn’t open up at 8 am today. As in, no opening to start walking if you weren’t already walking. I checked 5 times a day for the past 30 days. I know, because I wanted to book it. How can you have such a different experience to me? How did you find an opening when it’s been walked for over a month? I am taking you at face value, but it just doesn’t make sense to me.

No clue…I too have watched it and figured it would be like last year and I’d be booking PV. I hit book when the world clock hit 8 am and it was there!

Wasn’t expecting to but there it was and boy did I pray that my internet didn’t go down!!

That is the thing, even with owners walking, people do get them who have not walked because every day at least a few rooms open due to check out.

December is really high demand and it’s luck. That’s why I have said that even if walking was eliminated, and it was day by day booking, I could still end up with it and you don’t.

We shall see if I have the same luck when I book one starting Dec 8th…or when I try to get my VGF room in 3 days!

 

[Nabas]

I haven't read the last 10 pages and I'm going back to read them shortly.

This morning I decided to check out Dec 1 availability across all resorts. I've been a member for 24+ years and the last 4-5 I have had some problems getting what I wanted in November and December. With the exception of the past year, I've eventually pieced together a reservation at Boardwalk. This past year I didn't get all the days I wanted, but was able to last minute get a couple of nights at the new cabins, so that was good.

Checked ALL resorts this morning and without exception, every studio in 'resort' category was gone for that date at the moment I was checking about 7:55 am. With the exception of maybe 6 resorts (Riviera preferred view, Poly preferred studios -(ALL duo studios were gone) GF Resort View and Theme park view, Kidani, OKW, Saratoga) still had some availability in preferred views OKW and SS seemed to more available. Wish I'd taken notes.

My point is that the decease is spreading so that not 'just' myself at BW and others at AKV are affected. I went to book BCV and it was gone. First time for me not to get that with my 11 month opportunity. It's been my fall back along with garden view or even BW view at Boardwalk.

I actually feel a bit better now, strange as that may seem. Now I'm going back to see whether Dec 1 has popped back up since it's now past 8am.

I theorize that’s what’s going on in the first two weeks of December is (mainly) the result of recent Point Chart changes.

October and November used to be inexpensive (i.e. relatively few points). Now, those two months are more expensive than the summer months.

As a result, some DVC members who used to go in October or November have now shifted to the first few weeks in December.

It used to be that Food and Wine Festival was among the most difficult time periods to book. As a result of Point Chart changes, this has now shifted to early December.

We have booked DVC in December nearly every year. We love going when the weather is cooler and Christmas decorations are up. We will continue to do so.

However, even though it’s going to negatively impact me, I think Disney needs to increase the points required for early December. (Probably shift them from late August, where it’s easy to book despite points needed per night for August having already decreased in recent years.)