13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[LilyWDW]

They don't have a choice, I'm sure. Everywhere I've ever worked, we take turns with problem cases, families, patients. It's not fair a a couple of team players to get stuck every shift since everyone else is refusing.

As for suspecting parents of feeding her inappropriately, it's because we see it all the time. I've caught patients directly after surgery being fed, patients with ileuses, patients on insulin drips with blood sugars in the 1000's, patients with open guts (nothing like having soda ooze out an abdominal dressing.) It happens very, very frequently, and is life threatening to our patients. I've banned all visitors for certain patients because it was *critical* to their health that they not be fed, and every time family showed up, we had to take food and drinks away.

I am not a nurse, but I have seen the same thing while sitting with my mom when she was hospitalized many times during her fight with cancer. Some families will NOT listen to the nursing staff or the doctors. They go against orders. I admit, it is hard as heck to hear someone you love beg for food and drink and not be allowed to give it to them... but it is for a reason! They are not doing it to make them suffer.

I have also seen families that blow things up and flat out lie about what happened with the nursing staff. Heard one family complain that a nurse yelled at them and the patient. Funny thing as I never heard that happen and they were right across the hall... though I did hear the family scream at the nurse (and yes, I made sure I told them what really happened). Or the family that insisted the nurse had taken 30 minutes to bring pain meds... when it had only been about 5.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

To touch on a few points that were made since I was last on - My husband & I were both there in recovery with my daughter. They wanted us there when she woke up so she didn't panic. During her time in the PICU it was 1-1 care. I just can't believe a call would have gone unanswered, especially since there is always a nurse around. The popsicle IS a big deal if there was a NPO order.

ETA: On the timing thing. When we called 911, it felt like it took them forever to get there because we were in a panicked state. In reality they were there in under 7 minutes. When it is an emergency situation or the family is panicking I can see where it felt like the nurse took forever when in reality that may not have been the case.

 

[barkley]

mediation between the family and the hospital occurs today with a federal magistrate. it will be interesting to see what occurs..............

 

[Disney Doll]

I have read about the popsicle and I don't see it as that big of a deal. First the family didn't sneak in a popsicle. It would have melted. It's only liquid so I could see her being allowed to suck on it.

I did read the nurses site. I found some things there very informative and some things very insensitive and mean.

I think it's really hypocritical of them to be accusing the mother of killing her daughter with a hamburger while they are saying nobody should assume the hospital did anything wrong. There were posts over there stating outright that the mother probably killed her. Since when are anonymous comments a source for legitimate information?

It seems to me the thread over there illustrates how you can have both wonderful caring nurses and mean, insensitive ones. We have no idea what the family had been dealing with at this hospital. Why assume everyone there is just lovely and wonderful and everything the family says is just a big ol' lie?

Why are you assuming that everyone at the hospital is terrible and uncaring?

We all make assumptions based on our own perspectives and personal experiences.

 

[Disney Doll]

You don't know that for a fact either. It's simply what the family is saying happened. The hospital staff is unable to say what happened due to privacy laws.

So then we can believe the family when they say something that makes them look good and the hospital look bad but we can't believe the family when they say something that makes them look bad.

Just making sure I understand the rules.

 

[LisaR]

Where did the hamburger story come from? Did the mom or uncle say they gave her a hamburger?

I don't think a Popsicle right after a T&A is at all unusual. Both of my kids had them as soon as they woke up while they were still in recovery.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

Where did the hamburger story come from? Did the mom or uncle say they gave her a hamburger?

I don't think a Popsicle right after a T&A is at all unusual. Both of my kids had them as soon as they woke up while they were still in recovery.

The hamburger story comes from someone who commented on a news article, and claimed they were in the PICU and saw what happened. If they really were there, and if they really saw this happen, it will come out eventually.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Where did the hamburger story come from? Did the mom or uncle say they gave her a hamburger? I don't think a Popsicle right after a T&A is at all unusual. Both of my kids had them as soon as they woke up while they were still in recovery.

Maybe for a routine tonsillectomy, but as has been said over & over, this was far from routine. There was a lot more done, enough for pre-plan of a PICU stay. And a NPO means NPO - if there really was that order, there was a reason for it.

 

[Procrastinate]

I saw on one website that the surgery included a UPPP which may mean that they took far more of the throat tissue than just the tonsils and uvula. This could be why they apparently planned to put her in PICU and food and fluid were more restricted than many of our children experienced. I don't know how difficult it is to get insurance to pay for a UPPP, but I don't believe my insurance covers it.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Why are you assuming that everyone at the hospital is terrible and uncaring?

We all make assumptions based on our own perspectives and personal experiences.

I never said everyone at the hospital was terrible and uncaring. I'm not assuming that at all. I'm also not assuming everyone at the hospital is wonderful and lovely.

My comments in the post you quoted were about that site linked upthread. There are some really mean things written on that site. It doesn't mean every nurse is mean and uncaring but some of the ones on that site are.

 

[mefordis]

I read that hamburger thing as one of the nurses on that Website saying the family "probably" gave her a hamburger right before the popsicle. I didn't read it like it was fact.

The most interesting thing on that Website (and here from some of the nurses) was the account of what will happen to the girl's body if left on support with the brain being dead. It will become pretty obvious to the family that the girl will not be waking up, right?

 

[mnrose]

I never said everyone at the hospital was terrible and uncaring. I'm not assuming that at all. I'm also not assuming everyone at the hospital is wonderful and lovely.

My comments in the post you quoted were about that site linked upthread. There are some really mean things written on that site. It doesn't mean every nurse is mean and uncaring but some of the ones on that site are.

Really? I read nearly all of the posts and I didn't see any that seemed mean or uncaring. I guess it's a matter of perspective. There were some that seemed quite frustrated about the media's portrayal (being willing to uncritically accept what the family says, for example, even when it seems ludicrous) and frustrated by the general public's willingness to comment on what happened (blaming the hospital and assuming that SOMETHING had to be done wrong), but I don't see mean or uncaring.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Really? I read nearly all of the posts and I didn't see any that seemed mean or uncaring. I guess it's a matter of perspective. There were some that seemed quite frustrated about the media's portrayal (being willing to uncritically accept what the family says, for example, even when it seems ludicrous) and frustrated by the general public's willingness to comment on what happened (blaming the hospital and assuming that SOMETHING had to be done wrong), but I don't see mean or uncaring.

I think the posts that outright accuse the mother of killing her with a hamburger are pretty mean, especially since that is a total rumor. They actually use those words. The ones fighting about why she should be called "the corpse" aren't too nice either. Oh, and maybe you missed the one hoping her ghost comes back to haunt her family.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

I never said everyone at the hospital was terrible and uncaring. I'm not assuming that at all. I'm also not assuming everyone at the hospital is wonderful and lovely. My comments in the post you quoted were about that site linked upthread. There are some really mean things written on that site. It doesn't mean every nurse is mean and uncaring but some of the ones on that site are.

I agree with PP that as far as I had read (about half way through) I didn't see anything mean & uncaring. But also remember it is a board for nurses, so they are talking to their peers in their profession. They are not talking to the public or to the family. So it may not come off warm & fuzzy (few "behind the scenes" things do) but that doesn't make it mean & uncaring. A lot of it is technical and therefore may come across cold, but I don't think they'd ever approach a patient, family, public in that manner. I hope I'm getting across what I'm trying to say!

 

[mnrose]

I think the posts that outright accuse the mother of killing her with a hamburger are pretty mean, especially since that is a total rumor. They actually use those words. The ones fighting about why she should be called "the corpse" aren't too nice either. Oh, and maybe you missed the one hoping her ghost comes back to haunt her family.

I actually agree with them on the corpse issue. It is what it is. This family is CLEARLY not seeing the world as it really is, and I think the hospital and the staff are doing what they can to help them see reality. It's been more than three weeks now. And, many of them are estimating the cost at being in the millions. That boggles the mind, doesn't it? What an absolute waste of resources. While that may seem cruel or mean, it is wasteful. There's no other way to describe it. We cannot afford to spend that kind of money just to help someone's grieving process along. Now, if they are paying out of pocket, by all means....knock yourself out and waste your money any way you want. However, I doubt that is happening. And, even if it was, a PICU doesn't have unlimited bed space and unlimited staff. Other children with a chance to live may be displaced for a dead child. Unconscionable. Imagine the precedent it sets for the future. Ugh.

ETA: I don't believe much of anything the family has to say, frankly. They keep repeating the tired line that it was a simple tonsillectomy and we all know the FACT is that it was something much more. As long as they keep repeating this lie, I'm not going to trust much of anything else they say either.

 

[JanaDee]

I saw on one website that the surgery included a UPPP which may mean that they took far more of the throat tissue than just the tonsils and uvula. This could be why they apparently planned to put her in PICU and food and fluid were more restricted than many of our children experienced. I don't know how difficult it is to get insurance to pay for a UPPP, but I don't believe my insurance covers it.

Mine did.

 

[Halloweenqueen]

My son's surgery (palate extension, removal of tonsils, etc) was one of the toughest post surgery experiences. He was only allowed a Popsicle the next morning after surgery. As soon as he woke up he begged for food. He was still heavily medicated then. It wasn't until the next morning when he felt pain enough to not even want the popsicle. Then he was on liquids for three weeks after! I think the family did not understand the extent of the surgery.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I agree with PP that as far as I had read (about half way through) I didn't see anything mean & uncaring. But also remember it is a board for nurses, so they are talking to their peers in their profession. They are not talking to the public or to the family. So it may not come off warm & fuzzy (few "behind the scenes" things do) but that doesn't make it mean & uncaring. A lot of it is technical and therefore may come across cold, but I don't think they'd ever approach a patient, family, public in that manner. I hope I'm getting across what I'm trying to say!

I do understand what you are trying to say. I'm not talking about the clinical stuff though.

My above post includes some of the things I am talking about as mean. As I posted earlier there is a difference between the tone of many posters in that thread and the one about the pregnant woman in Texas. In fact in the Texas thread she was referred to as alive and nobody called her "the corpse". There's just a level of respect food this little girl missing.

I don't in any way think the family is making the right decision in Jahi's case. I don't like the way they are being vilified though. It seems like it's ok to call them liars, out for money, to say her death was their fault, to blame her weight yet if anyone mentions the hospital could in any way be acting or acted badly they are hospital haters.

Example.

Oh no its impossible that the family's story about the care leading up to her death could possible be true. They are liars. There's no way she would receive such poor care in that hospital. Yet, Rebecca Jimenez is a girl who went to the same hosptial for a similar procedure, received poor aftercare and ended up with severe brain damage. I posted a link to her story up thread.

 

[Coonhound]

I think the posts that outright accuse the mother of killing her with a hamburger are pretty mean, especially since that is a total rumor. They actually use those words. The ones fighting about why she should be called "the corpse" aren't too nice either. Oh, and maybe you missed the one hoping her ghost comes back to haunt her family.

The one who posted they hope the girls comes back to haunt her family?
You have changed the meaning of what that poster said.
The person who posted that they hope the little girls spirit appears to her mother to tell her mother that she is okay where she is and it's ok to let go of her now.
That is not "haunting" the family
And I'm sure the poster said this be a they think that is the ONLY way this mother is ever going to accept that her daughter is gone!
frankly I don't think the poster was being cruel.

 

[Ginger Renae]

Update from my local newspaper...

More than three weeks after Jahi McMath was declared brain-dead by doctors at Children's Hospital Oakland, her mother will be allowed to take her 13-year-old daughter home from the facility as long as she assumes full responsibility for her health, according to an agreement between both sides announced Friday morning in Alameda County Superior Court.

The hospital will allow a transfer team to enter the facility and take Jahi out and her entire health responsibility would then be transferred to Latasha Winkfield, according to the agreement. The judge denied forcing the hospital to insert a breathing and feeding tube into Jahi, which is required by all facilities willing to accept Jahi.

The family is expected to take the matter to federal court in Oakland after they leave the lower court this morning, and a federal magistrate is expected to also weigh in.

The girl has been on a ventilator since she was declared brain-dead after serious complications resulting from tonsil surgery and two other procedures to remove throat and nasal tissue to treat sleep apnea on Dec. 9.

Jahi's family has been fighting for a court to order the hospital to insert feeding and breathing tubes so Jahi could be transferred to a care facility, possibly in New York. The family has been trying to find an outside doctor willing to perform the procedures, as Children's Hospital Oakland says it will not operate on a "dead body."