13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[sunshinehighway]

Two things. The hamburger thing *could* be made up.

However, the popsicle thing is NOT. And, the grandma (an LVN...NOT an RN) did, in fact, "suction" the girl. She was NOT qualified to do so.


According to the nurses, BOTH of these things were WRONG. And, another thing, she was in the ICU when this happened....it was planned BEFORE surgery that she would go to the ICU. That alone makes this an unusual case. And who would feed a child a popsicle in the ICU? Who would take it on themselves to perform medical procedures in the ICU? This family is a piece of work.

Did you read the nurses site? Nurses who actually work with these sorts of cases. And, what would be happening to this poor child's body. Egads. It is macabre. And, yet the family is carrying on as if she's alive.

I cannot imagine being the nurses assigned to care for this child's body. I'm sure they are professional, but it must be stressful beyond belief to have to carry on with the family carrying on the way they are, and KNOWING that you are going to be dragged into a lawsuit.

I have read about the popsicle and I don't see it as that big of a deal. First the family didn't sneak in a popsicle. It would have melted. It's only liquid so I could see her being allowed to suck on it.

I did read the nurses site. I found some things there very informative and some things very insensitive and mean.

I think it's really hypocritical of them to be accusing the mother of killing her daughter with a hamburger while they are saying nobody should assume the hospital did anything wrong. There were posts over there stating outright that the mother probably killed her. Since when are anonymous comments a source for legitimate information?

It seems to me the thread over there illustrates how you can have both wonderful caring nurses and mean, insensitive ones. We have no idea what the family had been dealing with at this hospital. Why assume everyone there is just lovely and wonderful and everything the family says is just a big ol' lie?

 

[kacaju]

That being said, patients and families can contribute to their own complications by not listening to instructions. I can't tell you the number of times that I walked into a room of a patient with abdominal pain who was told to eat or drink nothing only to find them eating food that a family member brought in from home because "they called and said they were hungry and you were refusing to feed them". Yes, me, the mean nurse, was refusing to feed them because I wanted them to suffer. And yes I had explained to the patient WHY they couldn't eat and yes they said they understood and yes they also truly seemed to understand based on my observations.

I just witnessed this yesterday.

I was at Physical Therapy and I guy comes in with a knee immobilizing brace and heck...it looked like he still had stiches in (he had the small pieces of tape across his surgery site) 3 times I heard him ask his therapist if he could start to bend his leg...could he adjust the brace...3 times the therapist told him no. finally this last time the therapist had to remind him the Dr. said 2 weeks and it has only been a week!!

 

[mnrose]

I have read about the popsicle and I don't see it as that big of a deal. First the family didn't sneak in a popsicle. It would have melted. It's only liquid so I could see her being allowed to suck on it.

I did read the nurses site. I found some things there very informative and some things very insensitive and mean.

I think it's really hypocritical of them to be accusing the mother of killing her daughter with a hamburger while they are saying nobody should assume the hospital did anything wrong. There were posts over there stating outright that the mother probably killed her. Since when are anonymous comments a source for legitimate information?

It seems to me the thread over there illustrates how you can have both wonderful caring nurses and mean, insensitive ones. We have no idea what the family had been dealing with at this hospital. Why assume everyone there is just lovely and wonderful and everything the family says is just a big ol' lie?

I think the popsicle is a BIG deal when it was 30 minutes after surgery. That's what the nurses were saying. That is not right. And, they were probably told NO, and they did it anyway....just like you the parents say "what's the big deal." I'm not a medical person, but there is no doubt a reason they say NOTHING per oral (NPO)....that literally means what it says "NOTHING."

 

[rickybobby]

I believe this hamburger thing is made up. The child probably had such a tender throat that it would have been impossible to chew and swallow.
The popsicle is possible. Popsicle may have had a soothing effect on a sore throat, and if she had a functional gag reflex, it should have been okay.

Read on MSNBC this am that a "meeting" has been ordered for today between the two parties. Don't think this will resolve anything, as the parents have dug in pretty hard, but maybe.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I believe this hamburger thing is made up. The child probably had such a tender throat that it would have been impossible to chew and swallow. The popsicle is possible. Popsicle may have had a soothing effect on a sore throat, and if she had a functional gag reflex, it should have been okay. Read on MSNBC this am that a "meeting" has been ordered for today between the two parties. Don't think this will resolve anything, as the parents have dug in pretty hard, but maybe.

Not necessarily. My brother went home and got into potato chips after his tonsillectomy. His drive to eat overrode the desire not to cause pain in his throat.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

The rumor about the cheeseburger was apparently started by someone who claims to have been there, the parent of another child in the PICU. I am sure that the hospital will have investigated it if there was any substance to it.

I have never had throat surgery, but I have had other kinds of surgery. One time I was so drugged up after surgery that I didn't feel any pain and wondered why they cancelled the procedure.

So I can well imagine this child not feeling anything more than discomfort and asking for food. And I can well imagine this mither giving her daughter food.

 

[JanaDee]

I think the popsicle is a BIG deal when it was 30 minutes after surgery. That's what the nurses were saying. That is not right. And, they were probably told NO, and they did it anyway....just like you the parents say "what's the big deal." I'm not a medical person, but there is no doubt a reason they say NOTHING per oral (NPO)....that literally means what it says "NOTHING."

I had a similar surgery and I was still in regular recovery (not ICU) 30 mins after the procedure, barely conscious.

 

[skylizard]

I did read the nurses site. I found some things there very informative and some things very insensitive and mean.

I think it's really hypocritical of them to be accusing the mother of killing her daughter with a hamburger while they are saying nobody should assume the hospital did anything wrong. There were posts over there stating outright that the mother probably killed her. Since when are anonymous comments a source for legitimate information?

It seems to me the thread over there illustrates how you can have both wonderful caring nurses and mean, insensitive ones. We have no idea what the family had been dealing with at this hospital. Why assume everyone there is just lovely and wonderful and everything the family says is just a big ol' lie?

Who said it was legitimate information? All I said is they explain the medical side of what is going on with the child's body. And that's the part I find interesting, the scientific side of things, from the surgery to the brain death.

Though I have read from various news sources that the child did have a posicle and was talking. The nurses orders were no eating and no talking. It may not have seemed like a big deal to the family, but it could have been what caused the bleeding. (I am not saying that the family killed the girl!)

 

[mnrose]

According to court filings, Jahi was moved immediately to the PICU after surgery...as per the plan for her surgery. In other words, this was far from the routine surgery that her family describes. It was quite extensive, with a planned stay of several days in the PICU...that is hardly normal or routine for a tonsillectomy, which is generally done on an out patient basis these days.

Also, the nurses say that within 30 minutes of the surgery, she would still have been under the effects of the pain meds and could have felt hungry without feeling any pain. Apparently, it is common for surgery patients to want to eat since they have been forbidden to eat anything for quite some time before surgery. They are, indeed, hungry but it is unwise in the extreme to actually eat.

 

[JanaDee]

Who said it was legitimate information? All I said is they explain the medical side of what is going on with the child's body. And that's the part I find interesting, the scientific side of things, from the surgery to the brain death.

Though I have read from various news sources that the child did have a posicle and was talking. The nurses orders were no eating and no talking. It may not have seemed like a big deal to the family, but it could have been what caused the bleeding. (I am not saying that the family killed the girl!)

I forgot about the "no talking". When my DS had his tonsils/adenoids out, they told us keep him quiet for the rest of the day. How do you keep an almost 3 year old from talking? Answer, you can't.

But a 13 year old is definitely old enough to understand and follow a doctors directions. But if her family was encouraging her to talk, she (and her family) may have gone ahead and disregarded the doctors instructions.

 

[rickybobby]

Again, I believe there is some misinformation. Family members are not allowed into a Recovery Room, which is where every post operative patient is taken until they are deemed stable and alert enough to be taken to a room, be it an ICU or regular room.
Therefore, it had to be more than 30 minutes when the child supposedly ate the popsicle. Generally, patients spend 45-60 minutes in Recovery, and they keep no food or beverages in there.

 

[15isto2]

Two things. The hamburger thing *could* be made up.

However, the popsicle thing is NOT. And, the grandma (an LVN...NOT an RN) did, in fact, "suction" the girl. She was NOT qualified to do so.


According to the nurses, BOTH of these things were WRONG. And, another thing, she was in the ICU when this happened....it was planned BEFORE surgery that she would go to the ICU. That alone makes this an unusual case. And who would feed a child a popsicle in the ICU? Who would take it on themselves to perform medical procedures in the ICU? This family is a piece of work.

Did you read the nurses site? Nurses who actually work with these sorts of cases. And, what would be happening to this poor child's body. Egads. It is macabre. And, yet the family is carrying on as if she's alive.

I cannot imagine being the nurses assigned to care for this child's body. I'm sure they are professional, but it must be stressful beyond belief to have to carry on with the family carrying on the way they are, and KNOWING that you are going to be dragged into a lawsuit.

Its even worse, the stepfather was suctioning initially!
http://thaddeuspope.com/images/Mcmath-12302013_writ_petition.pdf

 

[sunshinehighway]

I just don't understand why it's ok to make assumptions that the family did something wrong but god forbid anyone even mention the hospital might have.

The family admits to giving her a Popsicle. We don't know that they snuck it to her. Maybe it was ok 'd . It makes more sense that they were given the ok to give her a popsicle because they are the ones that mentioned it to the media. Why would they make up some big lie about what happened after the surgery to make it seem like the hospital's fault (it has been said that they are lying) and at the same time admit their own wrong doing? Why assume the worst about the family at every turn?

 

[rickybobby]

I am fairly certain that a sensical ending will come to this case, but what if by some chance this child is allowed to remain on indefinite life support? What precedent does this set? Before long, we will have tons of people making the same decision, and nursing homes full of ventilated bodies.
Disturbing.

 

[skylizard]

Its even worse, the stepfather was suctioning initially!
http://thaddeuspope.com/images/Mcmath-12302013_writ_petition.pdf

You don't know that for a fact either. It's simply what the family is saying happened. The hospital staff is unable to say what happened due to privacy laws.

 

[DisneyTeacher]

Again, I believe there is some misinformation. Family members are not allowed into a Recovery Room, which is where every post operative patient is taken until they are deemed stable and alert enough to be taken to a room, be it an ICU or regular room.
Therefore, it had to be more than 30 minutes when the child supposedly ate the popsicle. Generally, patients spend 45-60 minutes in Recovery, and they keep no food or beverages in there.

I think that depends on the hopsital I've been allowed in the recovery room after every one of my son's surgeries. The rule at our children's hospital is usually one parent per child but after my son's tonsillectomy both my husband and I were brought back because he was so upset and there were so few other patients because he was the last surgery of the day. He was also given something to drink in the recovery room after his tonsillectomy but I can't remember how long post surgery the sips of sprite or water were.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Who said it was legitimate information? All I said is they explain the medical side of what is going on with the child's body. And that's the part I find interesting, the scientific side of things, from the surgery to the brain death.

Though I have read from various news sources that the child did have a posicle and was talking. The nurses orders were no eating and no talking. It may not have seemed like a big deal to the family, but it could have been what caused the bleeding. (I am not saying that the family killed the girl!)

It's actually really interesting to go read both that thread and the one about the brain dead pregnant woman in Texas. There is little graphic talk about what is happening to her body. There are also comments about her being kept "alive". It's just interesting to see the differences in thoughts, attitudes and what the conversation is focusing on between the two situations.

 

[rickybobby]

I think that depends on the hopsital I've been allowed in the recovery room after every one of my son's surgeries. The rule at our children's hospital is usually one parent per child but after my son's tonsillectomy both my husband and I were brought back because he was so upset and there were so few other patients because he was the last surgery of the day. He was also given something to drink in the recovery room after his tonsillectomy but I can't remember how long post surgery the sips of sprite or water were.

My hospital will not allow anyone in the RR due to HIPAA, but then again it is not a children's hospital. I can see where with a small child in emotional distress, a family member might provide a calming effect.

 

[#1hoosierfan]

I read the above link..... I simply cannot fathom that the child would be allowed to bleed that profusely in the ICU with so many nurses around..... And letting multiple people suction the child????????

My ds basically had the exact same surgery when he was two and a half. It was done in an outpatient surgery center. He did stay the night, but the "house doctor" was not even there that night...... Only a few RN's.

Ds was allowed to have a Popsicle several HOURS after the procedure. He did have a small amount of bleeding from the nose..... Even several days after the surgery..... Which we were told was normal.

IMO.... Either the family is not telling the truth about what happened in that ICU or the hospital is so grossly negligent that everyone in her direct care should lose their license.

 

[laughinplace199]

Again, I believe there is some misinformation. Family members are not allowed into a Recovery Room, which is where every post operative patient is taken until they are deemed stable and alert enough to be taken to a room, be it an ICU or regular room.
Therefore, it had to be more than 30 minutes when the child supposedly ate the popsicle. Generally, patients spend 45-60 minutes in Recovery, and they keep no food or beverages in there.

Maybe that's the case in some hospitals, but certainly not all. My DS had his tonsils and adenoids out when he was 3. After the surgery, DH & I were brought to the recovery room as DS was coming out of the anesthesia. There were about 8 beds in this room, and parents were brought in to be with their children.

It was interesting to note how difficult it was for some kids coming out of anesthesia. It seemed that the little ones (babies, toddlers, preschoolers) just cried and wanted to be held. The older kids were a bit more agitated and one was even trying to pull out his IV repeatedly.

We were in the recovery room with DS for a couple of hours, then we were brought to the room where he spent the night. He was not offered anything to eat or drink until we were in that room. There was definitely nothing to eat or drink in the recovery area.