Was I wrong to cancel my niece and nephews

[macs4us]

I just returned from spending the past 8 hours with my 11 year old niece (won't see her for a week as she is going to MT), and see so many posts!! Thanks for the overwhelming support - it helps to put things into perspective. Some of the comments, my not liking my other niece and nephews, and maybe I was just trying to test them - WOW!!! I apologize if I didn't make the original circumstances of this trip clear in my OP.

Let's get this straight right now - this started as my 11 year old niece wanting to go to WDW. Her mom was going to Canada for a week on a vacation, and my eldest sister always asks if I will take her daughter somewhere while she is gone, because my niece feels closer to me than anyone else in the family, and gets homesick for her mom. That is how the trip was planned - my sister asked me to take her daughter on a trip I would not have taken, which is why they were paying for her portion of the trip. My niece was estatic that her cousins may get to go - she is not selfish, and feels sorry for them. She knows that she is lucky to take all the trips she does, and feels blessed because she has a mom who cares.

When the FTP came along, I thought my husband and I could afford to give my mom this gift of being with all of her grandkids on our already planned trip. My other sister (the mother of the three) has never been willing to pay for anything, and uses her children as pawns to get whatever she wants from the rest of the family. We pay for them to come live with us for the summers - how many people in their 20s without kids offer to take care of 3 kids for a summer? More than offer - beg to be able to spend time with them. I have an 800 number so these kids can call me, anytime, day or night. I was the one there when my eldest niece got her period for the first time. We took them all on their first camping trip, and their first trip to DL. When my nephew started driving, we got him a cell phone that we pay for so he would be safe on the icy roads. And we NEVER bring it up to them or anyone else (until I have posted this now). That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't like or care for these kids.

I am guilty of being naive, and hoping it would work. Sometimes the kids run "hot and cold" so to speak - they really seem to want to do things, then they just don't care (probably from being disappointed so often). Because of this behavior, I was worried the two of the kids would "flake" - my eldest niece, and my youngest nephew. I also didn't want their mom to have any excuse to change her mind and not let them go (she did this when we were going to take the boys to Yellowstone). That's when I made the conditions - not as a test, more like "let's not give your mom any excuse to change her mind." I worked every summer, as did my husband, when we were kids. If you are up front with people about why you are going to need time off (a family reunion for my grandma's 60th birthday), they are generally understanding. I even offered to have my middle nephew come out here and stay with us so he could look at colleges and we could get him an internship. I thought these kids deserve to have a real vacation, but when they just didn't seem to care about anyone's feelings, and were lying to me, and their grandma, I had to put my foot down. The youngest boy won't do anything but watch tv, or take off without telling anyone where he is going. He calls his mom names (and now me as well), and I have learned that he has been hitting people, including his mom. When I made the "conditions" my eldest niece said her friend's boyfriend was a hiring manager at a new restaurant so she would have the job, no problem with the vacation either - she flaked on the guy, never returned his calls. She has been staying out all night, and left home to live with her boyfriend (while still in high school), until she found out her mom wasn't going to give her any more money. My middle nephew was not following through on anything (which is very unusual) and I found out that he had been staying out all night, and was lying about several things to me, his mom, my husband and his grandma, which is behavior I could not tolerate.

I think the excuse that they are teens is PATHETIC - all teens are having sex, so go at it??? All teens are disrespectful, so treat me like sh**??? That is why we have so many problems with these kids - parents don't want to take responsibility, and in turn defend these kids actions. Let's face it, the parents are at the root of the problem. And I am a Gen X'er, so it's not like I am completely out of touch. If we don't expect anything of these kids, where are we all going to end up? Maybe it does "take a village" - I just don't want to be the village idiot. I would be if I enable this destructive behavior.

They will not get far in life if they don't have any self respect, and they will not develop that unless they know there are repercussions. It has been horrible - I cried for days, and have tears in my eyes as I write this. But can I be an enabler?? No, that is as bad as their parents just not caring. It shouldn't be my job - but, it shouldn't be my job to pay for my nephew's books, or his SATs, or his field trips, or to take him on college visits, and help him fill out scholarship forms - yet I am the one who does these things. I am the one they call when they need someone to help them - their parents don't have time for them. I wish it was another way, but is it fair to have them go, have them be abusive and disrespectful, and ruin the trip for everyone?

 

[Disney1fan2002]

Macs4us, no need to explian. You ARE doing the right thing. You have to ut your foot down somewhere along the line, and I think a trip to WDW that is costing you THOUSANDS of dollars is the time to do it. It is sad that these children have the life that they do. It still does not mean they have to be rewarded for bad behavior.

I am right there with you, I have a trip next April. I invited my sister, her husband and 5 kids to stay in a 2 bedroom at Old Key West on my Disney vacation points. Myself, dh and 3 dc will be on the Disney Wonder for 4 days. When we get off the ship, we will ALL move into a Grand Villa for 2 nights. My sister is already talking about not letting her 14 yo twins go on the trip. They have gotten involved in smoking and marajuana, and they got expelled from school a week before marks closed. SHe is going through HE!! with these two, and I can't agree with her more. The only thing I can say, is she should of done this YEARS ago. The only other solution I had for her was to allow them to come, but the only thing she is paying for is for them to eat 3 meals. Anything else they want, admission to the parks, souveniers ( they are 14 but still act like a 5 yo when it come to wanting silly stuff, and she usually buys it for them)ice cream, soda, ect...they will have to have their OWN money. Could work, because they won't have their own money, it will give them something to think about when they want something and can't get it. The problem is, these two don't think about anything. It will be interesting to see what happens next April. But, you stand your ground! Have a wonderful trip with your mom and neice.

 

[C.Ann]

You are a GAZILLION percent right in how you are handling this.. And when and if you and your DH decide to have children, you will make WONDERFUL parents!!

I am SOOOOOOO tired of teens today not having to work for anything (be it actual jobs or school grades) and still being handed everything they want "just because".. I have a nephew who has the MOST HORRIBLE temper and attitude of ANY teenager I have EVER encountered.. (I couldn't even post here the things he calls his Mom..) He refuses to cooperate in school and has already failed one grade.. He turned 16 recently - is still doing lousy in school - has no job - and guess what his parents just got for him? A Pathfinder!!!! Why? Well - they thought it was only "fair" because their oldest child (straight A's since kindegarten; always working one or two jobs - even while going to college full-time; extremely kind and respectful; etc.) received a car from them when she turned 16..

Call me stupid here, but who is going to know that hard work will get you what you want in life - and who is going to think that all of life is a free ride???

I couldn't agree with your stand more!!!!!!!

 

[4greatboys]

MickeyandMinnie--we do that with our 2 oldest also. They have to bring their won spending money. I think it works out great. Our 2 little ones are 3 and 1 but thwy are old enough they will too.

I think you are doing the right thing macs4us. I know you want to be able to give them something nice but these kids need a big reality check. While is not your "job" to raise them. I think is the responsiblity of a family as a whole to guide kids in the right direction. Honestly if they are this old and they act this way I dont really see how they are going to change much. I have 2 teens and believe me raising them right and trying to teach them values and respect for others is a very, very hard job. But you have to stick to your guns. Otherwise they see others a weak and with pushing think they will always be able to get their way no matter what their actions are.
I hope you guys have a great trip!

 

[TEK224]

It is hard when you want the kids to have a good time and new experiences and then have to tell them no.

But if they don't listen at home and are disrepectful, there's no guarantee they won't be that way on the trip. This is your vacation too. Why should you be aggravated?

I don't have kids, but usually take my nieces and nephews on trips with me. I always tell them I'll pay for the trip, but they have to keep their grades up, have their own spending money and behave themselves. If they act up, they don't go again.

The only problem I've ever had was with one niece (12 yo) and nephew (9 yo). The problem is I can't take them anywhere together. They're brother and sister and they fight with each other all the time. Nothing bad, but just annoying stuff- things I don't want to deal with on vacation. Separately, they're fine, but together I can't stand it.

In Sept. I'm taking my older niece and her family to WDW. They could never afford to go on their own. This was their Christmas present from last year. They are paying for their airfare and park tickets. I'm paying for the 2 hotel rooms, rental van and most meals.
Her 8 y/o son already has over $150 saved for his spending money. The younger two have been collecting Disney Dollars since Jan.

You did the right thing.
Terri

 

[MrsPete]

On the one hand, I don't think I would have made this deal with the kids. But you know your family, and I can only assume that the conditions were appropriate for their ages, developmental levels, and attitudes.

Here's what I know for 100% sure: If I had made the deal, I would stick to it. If they didn't meet the conditions, no trip.

In retrospect, it might have been wise to give them smaller goals to meet along the way. Kids who are not used to meeting big goals might not realize that this is necessary.

For example: you could have told the 17 and 18 year olds that they needed to have an interview outfit ready by ____ date, they need to have applied for three jobs by ___ date. I know, they SHOULD know these things, but many kids just don't "get" the idea of working toward a goal. They just think they'll wake up one morning and the job will have materialized.

 

[Boo Mc]

I think you did the right thing. Our kids are 4 and 6 and had to save $100 for our last two trips to WDW. We didn't force them to put their money in the "Disney Bank" but they usually did. Every once in a while they wanted to spend their money on gum or candy and we told them that was their choice. When they finally saved a $100 you should have seen the happy dance they did! It's never to young to start teaching them. Although your niece and nephews are getting a later start at learning this it's still something they must learn. No one's going to be bailing them out and giving rewards for no work when they're older. In regards to your younger niece, if she were my child I wouldn't want her with the other three even if they are cousins. Kids mature too fast nowadays and she doesn't need to be tainted by their laziness and bad language. This, to me, is especially true at WDW which can be such an innocent place. Who wants to hear "I'm bored, this is so stupid" etc. when a younger child is still experiencing the "magic". By the way, I also feel like material things don't necessarily spoil a child. Letting kids get away with everything is what spoils them. Your younger niece may have more things but she sounds a lot less spoiled than the other three. Stick to your guns and if it helps why don't you offer the older three a trip next summer with the same conditions? This will give them plenty of time to get jobs and improve their grades. Good luck!

 

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

Some of you obviously didn't read veraletta's post very well, some are disagreeing with thier own comments.Making same points as Veraletta.

Well, I know I'm not part of that "some". I read very well, thank you, and I certainly didn't make the same points as hers- the opposite!

I'm actually kinda shocked that some would take the children's and/or their mother's side on this issue. But then I guess that's part of the reason there are children (and parents) like this in the world. Always wanting a free ride, always blaming the one that was giving the "gift" instead of those that didn't earn it, etc. The audacity to say she was wrong to even offer a free trip with conditions!
*sigh*

 

[christinanapier]

Obviously these boards aren't for advice they are for support,if you don't support someones decision then don't give your opinion is kinda what I'm getting from this message board .
You asked for peoples opinion and you got it ,those who didn't agree with your choice it seems as though your downing them! If you can't take critacism then don't ask for someone elses opinion go with the attituted that you did what was best.Don't ask complete strangers thier opinion then make a debate to make yourself feel better.
You asked for people to make a decision based on limited info and when the responded in a way that you didn't like you all attacked them.Everyones view is different some will applaude you for your efforts while others are going to tell you its not your job!!!!!
You knew again going into asking these kids it was a bad ideal why didn't you stick to that.Why did you waste your time in even asking?These kids you can't change with one trip ,you can't undo what your sister has already done.Why even try? Yes they are your family but it seems to me that if you knew these kids wouldn't hold up thier end ; and if they did and went with you would make the trip miserable why bother even asking them to go seems like a waste of time to me.Already knew the outcome!
Now you want reassurance on your decision.You should feel comfortable in what ever decision you have made and leave it at that not ask a billion strangers they're opinion and when one doesn't agree bash them for they're thought on the whole subject.Did you what thier opinion or did you want yours?

 

[macs4us]

I guess my stance is if others have a differing opinion, that's fine as long as they can logically support that view. I felt it was inappropriate for someone to state that I don't like my nieces and nephews, and I (hopefully) clarified my OP with my follow up to clearly illustrate that I in fact do care. The statement that boiled down to just because of someone's age we should allow them to get away with bad behavior has no logic to it - it's the same as "boys will be boys" and allowing females to be subjected to inappropriate behavior. I would be glad to hear some logic behind those points of view, not just an attack - that's not why I asked the question. If someone feels attacked by my responses, I am sorry. I am speaking the truth as I see it, and hopefully illustrating the logic behind my point of view.

This was the first time I had really asked much of the kids, and "the conditions" really had more to do with their mom. I am sorry that I made the assumption that people on this board would think "the conditions" were made with good intentions, rather than someone trying to be controlling. I am not into controlling other people, so it didn't even occur to me that someone could misunderstand my intentions in such a way. Mea culpa. I wanted the youngest to just turn in the homework he had done with his grandma. He is not learning impaired, and will be 13 - all he had to do was hand the work in. My 17 year old nephew and 18 year old niece should have at least looked for a job - their mom told them they had to get jobs. I was giving them ideas for jobs, sending them information on opportunities I had found, trying to be encouraging. They didn't even try - they rather stay out all night with their friends. Again, I asked them to not fight with their mom - that didn't last either. I agree that I may have been wrong to ask them in the first place, and while I am sad, I am also kicking myself for setting it up when chances are that it was going to fail - but I had to try. I really thought they would pull it together for grandma...

It is very sad that we live in a society that thinks it is just not worth it to try. I am sure that if everyone took that stance things would be much worse, which is why I try not to take that approach. Women couldn't vote, whites had their own drinking fountains - I am sure that people thought that couldn't change either, or that it "wasn't their job" to try, good thing people tried anyway.

Oh - and to those who are interested, I booked a MK fireworks cruise today. I hope I can keep it a secret from my mom and 11 year old niece until we go... I am not very good at keeping these things under wraps...

 

[disneyluvers]

I always feel sorry for the good hearted people of the world. Whenever a person makes a generous offer of their time and effort toward another person it always seems to end up as an argument about money. I don't think the money issue here is as strong as the issue about trust and promise keeping. I would have done whatever I could have so long as my nieces and nephews were honest, forthright, and sincere. As I have read the OP and others, I come to the conclusion that these young people really didn't want to go on the trip. People that feel entitled to something usually whine and apologize profusely when they accomplich nothing that will get them what they want. I just feel that the offer was made, and the conditions were honesty and sincerity. Since neither held up the moral standards that one would expect from someone who has been offered a wonderful gift, I think this trip is just not as important to them as it is to their mother. Just my opinion. (I used to be the selfish, use type person I write about here) Thank God I met my husband.

Michele

 

[dg39]

I read & read all these post over & over again. I even replied to the op as many did. Now I see that she felt the need to explain herself to all of us who agreed/disagreed with her decision to make a contract with her niece & nephews. To the op: there is no need to explain your actions, you only asked for opinions if you did the right thing. I myself, agree with you. Unfortunately you tried to help these kids and their mom, but it didn't work. I have a friend who is a social worker who deals with problem children every day. Yes, they are kids who are old enough to know the diff. between right and wrong. From what I understand your sisters kids get away with alot a nd they suffer no consequences. When you have kids like that & love them you try whatever you can to make them change. You even bribe & beg sometimes. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Because their not your kids doesn't mean its not your place to help. There your sisters kids, your blood. If family doesn't try to help family who else will. Yes, people can change. Hopefully, one day, there'll wake up and realize that they had enough of being disrespectful, lazy and just tired of always being in trouble. Maybe during the summer, when they have nothing to do, no money to go anywhere, and hear about the great time you had on your trip they'll want to do something for next summer. Disney will always be there waiting for them when their ready for it. Right now they probable have no interest to go with you because they are to oppositional. They want to do what they want to do when they want to do it. Some kids have defiant oppositiional disorder, when they defy all those in authority,(there mom, you and anyone else who is the "boss". They feel that they need to be in control & "no-ones going to tell me what to do". Not only was is great that you wanted to take these kids with you, but also a hugh resposability, knowing that they would have given you some trouble on the trip. So keep trying to help with the contracts or whatever else you feel might do the trick........

 

[belleandthebeast]

I'm sorry but I have to respond to this.

I think you were right on target by not allowing the children to go.
I think that if more people were like the world would be a better place.

I had similiar situation with my younger siblings. I have a trip planned with my 15 year old sister in December but I am leaving my 13 year old brother at home. I explained to my parents that I was not taking my brother because he was not doing well in school (he also failed the 7th grade). I myself refuse to reward a child for doing poorly (in school, w/ siblings, etc.) and stuck to my guns. My parents stood by decision because they too realized that he should not be rewarded for bad decisions.

If your sister doesn't agree with your decision, let her take her kids to Disney.

 

[crusin'minnie]

1. I'm curious...what is your DH's take on this?

2. How did the 3 children respond to you when you originally told them what their end of this deal would entail?

3. Just for the record- I do not feel that your requests were unreasonable in the least. One of the worst mistakes an adult can make with a child is to give in when the child does not do what is expected of them. It does so much more damage than people realize.

It's hard to stick to your guns! I have 3 little girls and it hurts to say no to them. You want to just give them the world. But DH and I realize that when we set conditions we have to be able to follow through even when its painful. To continually give in is much more detrimental in the long run than the disappointment they feel in the moment. I think this is even more important when you are dealing with teenagers. Taking those kids now would do more harm to them than good and it would probably ruin the vacation for the rest of you.

I hope you guys are able to go and have a wonderful time.

 

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

I think the only person here bashing others is the new person with 3 posts -christinanapier.

That's my opinion. Hey, you stated we were bashing others when I don't feel we were. So I have a right to say I feel you are the one bashing.

Oh and btw- SHE did not say that if she'd taken them they would ruin her trip- OTHERS said that from the sounds of it if they had gone anyway it would have been miserable from how they sound (irresponsible, parent raising them to expect things even when they don't meet the conditions, cursing at her when they found out they couldn't go, staying out late, lying, etc.) SHE never ever said- maybe it's good they aren't going since they'd probably ruin my trip anyway. So don't accuse her of saying things she didn't say.

 

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

To continually give in is much more detrimental in the long run than the disappointment they feel in the moment. I think this is even more important when you are dealing with teenagers. Taking those kids now would do more harm to them than good

I totally and emphatically agree! It is NO different than having a child and giving them rules- if they break the rules they are told they will lose a privilege or treat. It does them no good if they then break the rule and you give in anyway and let them have the privilege, treat, prize, etc. NONE. Anyone who thinks it is the way to go with children is the reason we have so many young adults that think the world owes them everything on a silver platter regardless of their behavior, how responsible they AREN'T, whether they've earned it or not, etc.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. LOL

 

[boston-yachter]

As a teen browsing the family boards....just wanted to say....

GOOD FOR YOU!!

I'm sick of adults going around saying "well there just teens..."
Ya your right we are teens....but we're also young adults....and the people who will be running...leading and living in this country...
I will say its a hard lesson to learn....and they paid the consequences....(sry I can't spell)...but you should not feel bad....

You have done so much for these kids already....I mean lets think about this...you and your husband are a young couple in their 20s...I'm sure you would love to take that 2 week vacation in the Bahamas but instead consider taking the kids camping or on a vacation....THATS AMAZING!! You are so Un-selfish!!
Here you are wanting to start your own family while raising your sisters....seems a little on the unfair side for you and your husband yet you guys don't complain!

I have taken fellow teen friends to disney....and in fact...my best friend has just gotten a job to pay for her airfare and spending money for the trip in August....and my mom agreed to pay for passes and most of her food...

"If you don't want it you don't get it"....and just because there your relatives...doesn't mean they can slip by....because there not going to slip by in life....
your husband and you are not going to be there for every slip up they make or decision they blow off....

I could be way off on this...but I just wanted to let you guys see what a teens view was on this....

Well anyways....enjoy your trip with mom and your neice...I'm sure you will have a fantasic time....I guess you could call it a bitter-sweet vacation!

 

[macs4us]

If I can just answer a couple of questions and make a few comments...

Originally posted by crusin'minnie
1. I'm curious...what is your DH's take on this?

2. How did the 3 children respond to you when you originally told them what their end of this deal would entail?

On your first question, my husband is 100% behind my decision. I actually talked with him and my mom to see what they thought - I wouldn't have done this without talking with both of them. My husband, obviously, has been very generous with these kids the 9 years we have been a couple. He is very hurt as well, but has been wanting to put his foot down - he was beginning to think the kids were taking advantage of us. We are very worried about the kids not being able to make it on their own, and feel that this is necessary in the long run.

In response to you second question, let me tell you "how it went down" so to speak. I told them what I wanted to do (I want to give grandma a trip with all of you to WDW), and that they needed to get summer jobs (older two) and do "well" the rest of the school year (younger one) so their mom wouldn't have an excuse to cancel them going (which she is known to do). I clarified to the younger one that meant turning in his homework that he had done with grandma so he would pass. I also asked them to not fight with their mom, and try to pick up after themselves. I told them that I would be paying for airfare, passes, the room and there normal meals - they would need to provide spending money. Since the youngest one has his birthday in July, my eldest sister and myself were going to give him DD as his birthday gift so he would have spending money. They all said no problem - it was not a big deal, except for the fighting with their mom. I tried to talk to them about that, and told them I know it is hard, but they really need to try to not fight with her. I also told them what behavior would be expected - watch the language, no fighting, and don't be so loud we get booted from the hotel - just be respectful. No problem they all said - there was no whining, no problems. The day I was buying their plane tickets I talked to all of them, and with the older two I actually said, "I am about to buy your plane tickets. I want to make sure you are going to follow through, and if you can't tell me now, and if you "flake" for some reason, you are going to have to pay any penalties on the tickets." They were "we would never flake, we are so excited" with both of them telling me what they were going to do about jobs. My niece even asked if her boyfriend could join us, and I said yes if he paid his own way, and I sent her an email with a breakdown of the costs.

I guess it does come down to they really don't want to go. My mom is fine with it - disappointed, but she is happy to be going with her youngest grandbaby. I told my mom I was so sorry that this happened, I really thought we could pull this off for her, and I feel guilty now for setting it up. What's kind of funny is that my mom sees it the way a lot of you do - if my sister doesn't like, she should pay and take her kids to WDW herself.

We are going to have a good time!!! As I said, I have planned a MK fireworks cruise (still haven't told, hope I can hold out), and I am trying to plan some special things to reward my youngest niece for her hard work. She hasn't had it all that easy lately (her parents are splitting up) and she still keeps it together - amazing. I want her to be able to have fun and be a kid - no worries, just fun with us and grandma.

 

[Texian@WDW]

Macs4us:

Noticed your going to Sequoia. I've been once and love it! Have fun.

You did the right thing.

 

[christinanapier]

Boo, Not a basher but don't care what you think about me anyway.I don't know you ,you don't know me so don't make "assumptions." I'm not the one bashing my family in this board. I'm not the one questioning my actions either.I never said she should take these kids.Who cares how many times I have posted on this board like it really matters anyway!
Second I think the comment about the white's only water fountain and etc. is kinda apples and oranges.You can change your sisters kids with one trip.You can't undo whats already been done .If you think you could I think you have big dreams.When these kids got home it would be back to the same because of the way they have been raised; even if they had kept up with the bargain.Many teens don't listen to anyone they have to learn for themselves that everything is not handed to them and that life is ruff.One little trip isn't going to make a difference.They have had 18 yrs. of everthing being handed to them so now they are used to it one trip isn't going to change it.