The star wars spoiler thread

[lockedoutlogic]

Other then the new Imperial Shuttle, and Rey's speeder, yeah.....nothing new. I kept waiting to see a new A, B or Y wing. Maybe the Resistance doesn't bomb. LOL.

I'd agree with you on the ending. I was very, we've already done this twice (three times if you want to count Episode I's ending too), really J.J.????

I will say that after Episode I, I did want to see the next Episode ASAP, and the same after Episode II. Then again, I felt the same way after Jurassic Park - give me more!!!

Listen...six months from now we'll all be in agreement:

It was a straight reboot where they whacked an old guy and brought in a new yoda...I think that's clear.

But...it was done well for what it is and has way more of an optimistic feel than any prequels...

I mean...I remember thinking "just an intro...lots more coming" after phantom menace...but I also remember thinking how awful it was. Like a kindergartener had produced it without telling anyone.

Ep II made me not care...which by and large I haven't until Disney bought Lucas. They had to throw that baby out with the bath water.

The reality is this: the business analysts all said how important this movie was...I did too...they couldn't pooch it.

He didn't pooch it...but Abrams just kicked the can down the road. If we're honest.

Now they NEED an empire with a spectacular story to keep the Star Wars juggernaut going. This movie was not thick enough without a better next chapter.

Just my opinion.

 

[Eoghann]

The other thing missing was new cool
Toys...as in it was stormtroopers, tie fighters and xwings...

No fleets, vehicles, new wrinkles to like really...
All old hat.

I'm actually wondering if this is part of the larger story of what the First Order is. I could be reaching here, but the fact that the "new Empire" is just like the "old Empire" only slightly polished and with a bigger Death Star may actually say something about the First Order and Snoke. It could be that the obsession with order etc. creates this stagnant lack of vision.

If we're talking from a business perspective I get it, this was essentially a reboot without being a reboot. They needed to rope in new generations here and entirely new audiences in some overseas countries. So you please the fans and you give the newcomers a crash course in Star Wars.

From my perspective though the franchise had lost its way starting with Return of the Jedi. This took us back to basics.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If we're talking from a business perspective I get it, this was essentially a reboot without being a reboot. They needed to rope in new generations here and entirely new audiences in some overseas countries. So you please the fans and you give the newcomers a crash course in Star Wars.

From my perspective though the franchise had lost its way starting with Return of the Jedi. This took us back to basics.

You basically just covered the story of
Gary Kurtz...who had been pretty "diplomatic" in saying George turned the story over to Kenner. Without saying it.

I think Jedi gets a bad wrap though. Other than the ewoks...the story largely works.

And it would have worked much more if they had made the Death Star and attack on the emperor...not the space station. They say it but could have been made that the focal point. Eliminating the real problem.

Emperor lays trap...rebels jump into it...they win anyway...

That works overall.

As far as the themeparks...there was enough eye candy in empire and Jedi to make the greatest themepark draw ever...in the 80's 90's 00's or today...

They just never got around to doing it.

Part of my frustration with what is star tours - a cop out - and some phoney set pieces slapped outside.

 

[twebber55]

You basically just covered the story of
Gary Kurtz...who had been pretty "diplomatic" in saying George turned the story over to Kenner. Without saying it.

I think Jedi gets a bad wrap though. Other than the ewoks...the story largely works.

And it would have worked much more if they had made the Death Star and attack on the emperor...not the space station. They say it but could have been made that the focal point. Eliminating the real problem.

Emperor lays trap...rebels jump into it...they win anyway...

That works overall.

As far as the themeparks...there was enough eye candy in empire and Jedi to make the greatest themepark draw ever...in the 80's 90's 00's or today...

They just never got around to doing it.

Part of my frustration with what is star tours - a cop out - and some phoney set pieces slapped outside.

what eye candy are you thinking of? Endor?

 

[Eoghann]

And it would have worked much more if they had made the Death Star and attack on the emperor...not the space station. They say it but could have been made that the focal point. Eliminating the real problem.

Emperor lays trap...rebels jump into it...they win anyway...

That works overall.

It's not really the story of Jedi that I have problems with, it's the execution. The core elements to tell the "end" of the Luke Skywalker trilogy are there, but the focus is put in all the wrong places. Far too much of the Ewoks, the confrontation with the Emperor becomes very repetitive and Vader's conversion back to the light side at the end didn't convince me (oh the irony considering what was to come). It's like they had all the elements in play but couldn't figure out how to put them together correctly. To me the things that are wrong the in the prequels start going wrong in Jedi.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

what eye candy are you thinking of? Endor?

Well...

The snow battle
The asteroid field
The swamp planet
The cloud city
The jabba sequence
The speeder bikes
The forest battle
The space battle
The second (much cooler) Death Star sequence...

I mean...can't throw something together outta that?

 

[Budshark]

Ok just saw the movie again.

I have to say - I liked it more. If you are looking for plot holes and repeats, you'll find them. So have at it. If you are looking for the best character building, the most entertaining, and the most fun Star Wars - this is it.

I'm less convinced Rey is a Skywalker. I'm more interested in the Knights of Ren (I didn't catch Snoke call Kylo the Master of the Knights of Ren until the 2nd time).

I think the movie will hold up. I'd like to go back a 3rd time...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Ok just saw the movie again.

I have to say - I liked it more. If you are looking for plot holes and repeats, you'll find them. So have at it. If you are looking for the best character building, the most entertaining, and the most fun Star Wars - this is it.

I'm less convinced Rey is a Skywalker. I'm more interested in the Knights of Ren (I didn't catch Snoke call Kylo the Master of the Knights of Ren until the 2nd time).

I think the movie will hold up. I'd like to go back a 3rd time...

I think the "strength" of this movie will be largely determined by what follows.

 

[Aurora0427]

My biggest issues with the prequels were the casting & character development. Hayden Christiansen as Anakin Skywalker- Anakin was a whiny little beotch, Natalie Portman was wooden as Padme, and cool characters like Mace Windu were never really developed. Obviously there were other issues, but for me, I seriously wanted to beat my head against the wall every time Anakin was onscreen. Even the little kid cast as Anakin in Episode I was just meh and then they went and killed Darth Maul, who was actually interesting.

TFA was, IMO, expertly cast. I have zero complaints with the cast, and it's too soon to complain about character development. The original trilogy developed characters over the span of three movies, so I'm expecting the same with the new trilogy.

Just my two cents.

 

[TwoMisfits]

My opinion (having just seen it today) It was...meh...It was safe...it was a total reboot of #4 with hardly any new notes. It lacked explanation where it needed explanation and it provided explanation where it should have shown explanation...the best parts of the movie were the new characters with Han. Even the tech was meh (I mean, really, it's all the same junk after 30 years? It's all the same set-up - still a "rebel alliance" fighting an "empire" using a Death Star with a leader and a dark jedi and a lesser guy fighting to be the #2). And it borrowed shamelessly from the follow-on books which are now non-cannon (we have a bad Jedi Solo, who was Han and Leia's kid and a good female jedi who will likely have to turn him or take him down)...

I think my original "O" take was right - this is no Oscar movie, it's un"o"riginal and "o"verrated for anyone who got to see the originl trilogy as a kid. I gave it a C - however those with me who had never seen the original trilogy gave it a B, so it's probably best to be less acquainted with the original films and the follow-on book material. The less you know, the better it seems.

 

[Aurora0427]

My opinion (having just seen it today) It was...meh...It was safe...it was a total reboot of #4 with hardly any new notes. It lacked explanation where it needed explanation and it provided explanation where it should have shown explanation...the best parts of the movie were the new characters with Han. Even the tech was meh (I mean, really, it's all the same junk after 30 years? It's all the same set-up - still a "rebel alliance" fighting an "empire" using a Death Star with a leader and a dark jedi and a lesser guy fighting to be the #2). And it borrowed shamelessly from the follow-on books which are now non-cannon (we have a bad Jedi Solo, who was Han and Leia's kid and a good female jedi who will likely have to turn him or take him down)...

I think my original "O" take was right - this is no Oscar movie, it's un"o"riginal and "o"verrated for anyone who got to see the originl trilogy as a kid. I gave it a C - however those with me who had never seen the original trilogy gave it a B, so it's probably best to be less acquainted with the original films and the follow-on book material. The less you know, the better it seems.

As someone who has read every single book in the Expanded Universe, and knows quite a bit about Star Wars, I respectfully disagree. I loved it. Was it perfect? No. Was it Empire? No. But it was a fun movie, and I for one am thrilled to see SW back on the big screen with new characters. Time will tell what happens depending on what they do in the next two movies.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The reason it was "safe" and "unoriginal" was that Disney determined it needed to do a clean slate approach. Honestly...if they hadn't brought ford and fisher back it wouldn't have changed the movie all that much.

What am I saying? The damage caused by attack of the clones continues to haunt the logo to this day.

It's like they thought they had to "undo" the last 20 years.

It Dumbed down this movie in many ways. Almost collateral damage from one perspective.

 

[Josh Hendy]

He didn't pooch it...but Abrams just kicked the can down the road. If we're honest.

Now they NEED an empire with a spectacular story to keep the Star Wars juggernaut going. This movie was not thick enough without a better next chapter.

I think he teed up the can and said, right. No more huge story arc. I'm not making a centuries-long saga about galactic politics. This is no Foundation Trilogy or the Ring Cycle. More like a merry-go-round where different riders jump on and off, the but the scenery is basically the same. The can is tethered and I'm kicking it in a circle.

It's not defensible as "art" by a long shot. But it's defensible as comic-book style entertainment for the purposes of movie ticket and toy sales ... up to a point ... I suppose.

That's assuming that Abrams (or whoever had final say over the script) is even intelligent enough to have deliberately made that decision. But from what I've heard about Hollywood, the answer is almost certainly "yes". The Canadian artsy director Atom Egoyan said when you get to Hollywood and you talk about books and philosophy and stuff, the studio people have read everything and they understand all the ideas. But they're allergic to making anything that resembles intelligent movies because they think it won't sell ... so they jump at any chance to dumb it down.

After watching Lucas more or less botch his attempt to make a complicated story with echoes of the Roman Empire and 9/11, I think I have to defer to the studio bosses' wisdom. People don't relate to a subtle portrayal of tyranny in the form of Senator Palpatine ... but they can really get into a bad son who rebelled against his mother and uncle. And a supreme leader who is basically Gollum if he had kept the ring and moved into outer space. That's box office gold.

I don't like it ... I think that an intelligent and original plot could have easily been slipped into the film without distracting from the eye candy or interrupting the flow of cheers and tears. I think that they underestimated the degree to which the long-term success and fan dedication of Star Wars derives from the huge story arc that flows through episodes I to VI. But I understand it.

 

[Budshark]

So we are complaining about a movie that is almost 40 years old being remade?

Personally I thought there were enough new plot points to make it interesting (Stormtrooper defection, Hux-Kylo rivalry, Rey's background, Knights of Ren)

But ultimately it's by design. The Empires mode of operation is to control through fear and intimidation and that includes weaponry).

And honestly if you read the background stories and know enough about the Galaxy the lack of Rebellion advancement in military makes complete sense.

I think if you want to find plot holes you will. It's been 30 years. Not 1,000. How different does a war on Earth in 2015 look than 1985? Not very...

If you want to find plot holes it's how far the Galaxy fell apart between the end of Episode 3 and beginning of Episode 4. The timeline between 6 and 7 is much more logical.

 

[WebmasterMike]

I'm just going to put this right here...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I knew about 2/3 of the way through that some were gonna say it was great and some where gonna call it an amateur remix of the original...

And here we are. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Josh Hendy]

If you want to find plot holes it's how far the Galaxy fell apart between the end of Episode 3 and beginning of Episode 4. The timeline between 6 and 7 is much more logical.

Yeah ... the change from 3 to 4 is so blatant that to call it a "plot hole" is being far too generous.

Lucas locked himself up in Skywalker Ranch for 20 years and lost his mind, basically from not ever speaking to any adult who was not his employee. He made robots, spaceships and Jedi swordplay 100 times more spectacular ... because he could. And because nobody over the age of 8 was on hand to tell him, George, that's completely dumb. You don't give d'Artagnan a Glock with laser sights just because you made the Three Musketeers in 1975, but only got around to filming the story of his youth in 2008.

That's how ridiculous the prequels were. As art ...

It's completely divorced from the business of movie making of course, but if you wanted to bet on a body of fiction surviving for 100 plus years of popularity and basically ringing down through the ages as a classic ... bet on the one whose plot and story arc are the most thorough, uncompromising, and devoid of ret-con, contrived backstories, plot recycling and reboots. That is why you have the Ring Cycle and the Foundation Trilogy, compared to say, the Francis the Talking Mule Cycle ... or Batman.

 

[Eoghann]

My biggest issues with the prequels were the casting & character development. Hayden Christiansen as Anakin Skywalker- Anakin was a whiny little beotch, Natalie Portman was wooden as Padme, and cool characters like Mace Windu were never really developed. Obviously there were other issues, but for me, I seriously wanted to beat my head against the wall every time Anakin was onscreen. Even the little kid cast as Anakin in Episode I was just meh and then they went and killed Darth Maul, who was actually interesting.

TFA was, IMO, expertly cast. I have zero complaints with the cast, and it's too soon to complain about character development. The original trilogy developed characters over the span of three movies, so I'm expecting the same with the new trilogy.

Just my two cents.

I don't think the problem in the prequels was the actors, I think it was the director. There were some very good actors in those movies and somehow they still turned out like robots on screen.

Basically everything wrong with those movies, poor pacing, lack of tension, illogical plot developments, wooden acting can all be placed at Lucas' feet.

People can say what they like about Abrams, but he knows how to direct actors. The performance of the cast in this "The Force Awakens" is light years better than anything seen in any Star Wars movie previously.

 

[Eoghann]

I think he teed up the can and said, right. No more huge story arc. I'm not making a centuries-long saga about galactic politics. This is no Foundation Trilogy or the Ring Cycle. More like a merry-go-round where different riders jump on and off, the but the scenery is basically the same. The can is tethered and I'm kicking it in a circle.

It's not defensible as "art" by a long shot. But it's defensible as comic-book style entertainment for the purposes of movie ticket and toy sales ... up to a point ... I suppose.

It's not art. Star Wars has never been art. I love the series, but it's a pop-culture mashup and that's all it has ever been. The original blended samurai, westerns, sci-fi, fantasy and cliffhanger serials. There's not an original note in the entire thing. And the new one, well it's essentially the Star Wars supercut mega-mashup. I don't say that as a criticism. It's what Star Wars should be.

The world is full of tedious art-house movies that no one watches, I'll take fun any day.

 

[Aurora0427]

I don't think the problem in the prequels was the actors, I think it was the director. There were some very good actors in those movies and somehow they still turned out like robots on screen.

Basically everything wrong with those movies, poor pacing, lack of tension, illogical plot developments, wooden acting can all be placed at Lucas' feet.

People can say what they like about Abrams, but he knows how to direct actors. The performance of the cast in this "The Force Awakens" is light years better than anything seen in any Star Wars movie previously.

Well, yes. The biggest problem with the prequels was George Lucas. That kind of goes without saying. He was such the obvious problem I didn't think I needed to mention it, although I'm not sure Hayden C. would've been the perfect Anakin with a different director. Lack of character development falls on Lucas.

Totally agree that the cast performance in TFA is better than any prior 6 movies.