Rumored Changes to G+

[Disneychick13]

Funny enough, one of the places we saw other DAS users on our trip last week was at the Christmas party at Space Mountain. I know for us, the rides we use DAS on at the parties are those with overlays since those standby lines are usually too long for us (other rides standby is short enough we can just wait), so maybe others do the same so more DAS users are concentrated on those rides with overlays at the parties? I will say there was a shocking number of people in the LL for Space during the party.

I did notice one of the times on Space there was a huge group ahead of us that used the LL during the party and they were definitely not DAS (party was too big and none scanned in blue), so there are definitely other groups using LL during the party without DAS, whether it be Golden Oak, Club 33, Ride Recovery, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if these other users make up a small but noticeable chunk of LL users.

To be clear, I really don’t know who was in the LL. I know that golden oak and clubs 33 users (and I don’t even know for sure if they can use LL during a party) can’t be that many people. I also don’t know if the give out ride recovery passes during the parties (maybe they do but I don’t know that for certain). I do know that (at the end of the night) I saw a party approach the LL at haunted mansion and the cast member loudly asked if they were a DAS holder. That kind of tells me that for cast members that’s who they assume is going to be using that line. Disney does not publish information regarding use of the LL by DAS holders. So we have no idea really. It’s all going to be anecdotal evidence.

 

[Disneylover99]

You would think a live video chat with a cast member would be as much of a deterrent as getting a doctors note.

It’s just too easy now. You can pre book two bonus rides per day when you do the video chat from the comfort of your home. They want you to call, so that guest services doesn’t get bunged up with people trying to get DAS in the parks when people arrive. Disney did this to themselves.

Plus you can still go into the parks and get it in person. It’s no wonder there are so many DAS users.

 

[mamaofsix]

It’s just too easy now. You can pre book two bonus rides per day when you do the video chat from the comfort of your home. They want you to call, so that guest services doesn’t get bunged up with people trying to get DAS in the parks when people arrive. Disney did this to themselves.

Plus you can still go into the parks and get it in person. It’s no wonder there are so many DAS users.

DAS abuse has already been extensively discussed on this thread about 14 pages ago. I'll copy and paste my answer here for you.

I have adopted children with disabilities, so hope I can help:

1) DAS is VERY hard to get, and extremely difficult to "cheat." Disney rebuilt all of their lines so that anyone with a wheelchair or EVC can go in the regular line. DAS is mostly for those with invisible disabilities (Autism, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder, Bladder control issues) who cannot wait in a regular line, either sitting or standing. If you check the DISabilities board, you'll see how many people are denied DAS on a regular basis. More are denied than accepted. It is an arduous process to get DAS in advance of your trip. It took me 10 hours of waiting online and going through multiple chats to get it for my children last trip. My children had to be present for video chats and interviews.

2)DAS is NOT the same as skipping the line with paid G+. With G+, you simply select the ride and can often ride almost right away. You can also stack attractions. With DAS, you get a return time that is equal in length to the current standby. Say the standby wait for Flight of Passage is 120 minutes. You get a return time that is 120 minutes after your selection. You cannot select any other rides to use DAS on until after you have checked into Flight of Passage 120 minutes later. The point of DAS is that you can wait to ride in a space that is not claustrophobic or hard to escape for the person with disabilities. For example, I can wait with my child with disabilities on a park bench, etc. until our time is called. If they freak out on the park bench or I need to rush them to the bathroom, I am able to move them (unlike a line that is locked in). Once our 2 hours of waiting for FoP is up, we will ride.

3)Many people with DAS choose to also buy G+ and use a combination of the two systems (due to the clunky nature of the process described above). I'll repeat it again - Many people with DAS also pay for G+

4)If I had to guess, I'd say that exponentially more people in the lightning lane are there due to G+, not DAS

As has been noted upthread, it's easy to tell who is using DAS by the color at scan in. The cast member also has to match a picture of the guest that pops up on their screen with who is scanning in, to make sure they match - this takes time and it's a very noticeable process. Maybe @lentesta can clear this up. Were those assessing the Haunted Mansion LL looking to see what color came up on scan in? Were they counting how many parties were paused while they got their pictures verified by cast members when they scanned in? As DAS users, we VERY RARELY see other DAS users scan in - they are extremely few and far between, as noted by the poster up thread.

 

[Disneychick13]

DAS abuse has already been extensively discussed on this thread about 14 pages ago. I'll copy and paste my answer here for you.

I have adopted children with disabilities, so hope I can help:

1) DAS is VERY hard to get, and extremely difficult to "cheat." Disney rebuilt all of their lines so that anyone with a wheelchair or EVC can go in the regular line. DAS is mostly for those with invisible disabilities (Autism, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder, Bladder control issues) who cannot wait in a regular line, either sitting or standing. If you check the DISabilities board, you'll see how many people are denied DAS on a regular basis. More are denied than accepted. It is an arduous process to get DAS in advance of your trip. It took me 10 hours of waiting online and going through multiple chats to get it for my children last trip. My children had to be present for video chats and interviews.

2)DAS is NOT the same as skipping the line with paid G+. With G+, you simply select the ride and can often ride almost right away. You can also stack attractions. With DAS, you get a return time that is equal in length to the current standby. Say the standby wait for Flight of Passage is 120 minutes. You get a return time that is 120 minutes after your selection. You cannot select any other rides to use DAS on until after you have checked into Flight of Passage 120 minutes later. The point of DAS is that you can wait to ride in a space that is not claustrophobic or hard to escape for the person with disabilities. For example, I can wait with my child with disabilities on a park bench, etc. until our time is called. If they freak out on the park bench or I need to rush them to the bathroom, I am able to move them (unlike a line that is locked in). Once our 2 hours of waiting for FoP is up, we will ride.

3)Many people with DAS choose to also buy G+ and use a combination of the two systems (due to the clunky nature of the process described above). I'll repeat it again - Many people with DAS also pay for G+

4)If I had to guess, I'd say that exponentially more people in the lightning lane are there due to G+, not DAS

As has been noted above, it's easy to tell who is using DAS by the color at scan in. The cast member also has to match a picture of the guest that pops up on their screen with who is scanning in, to make sure they match - this takes time and it's a very noticeable process. Maybe @lentesta can clear this up. Were those assessing the Haunted Mansion LL looking to see what color came up on scan in? Were they counting how many parties were paused while that got their pictures verified by cast members when they scanned in? As DAS users, we VERY RARELY see other DAS users scan in - they are extremely few and far between, as noted by the poster up thread.

Your experience is your experience. I’m just not sure where

DAS is VERY hard to get, and extremely difficult to "cheat."

comes from. That would also be anecdotal evidence. I have no idea (only Disney knows) what percentage of people who apply are denied. I can’t really fathom how it’s difficult when it requires no proof at all and is mostly used by those with invisible disabilities (so not like it would be obvious who is and is not telling the truth). If you can lie with a straight face and you can approximate the correct verbiage I’m not really sure how you would be denied. I kind of assume that most people that are denied are legitimately applying because that think they meet the qualifications but then they actually don’t and so are denied. I don‘t think many people who are trying to cheat the system and are denied are going to actually post about it.

4)If I had to guess, I'd say that exponentially more people in the lightning lane are there due to G+, not DAS

If I had to guess I’d say that it’s probably closer to 25% DAS/70% G+, 5% other. But just like you I would be guessing. I really have no clue.

 

[mamaofsix]

Your experience is your experience. I’m just not sure where

comes from. That would also be anecdotal evidence. I have no idea (only Disney knows) what percentage of people who apply are denied. I can’t really fathom how it’s difficult when it requires no proof at all and is mostly used by those with invisible disabilities (so not like it would be obvious who is and is not telling the truth). If you can lie with a straight face and you can approximate the correct verbiage I’m not really sure how you would be denied. I kind of assume that most people that are denied are legitimately applying because that think they meet the qualifications but then they actually don’t and so are denied. I don‘t think many people who are trying to cheat the system and are denied are going to actually post about it.

If I had to guess I’d say that it’s probably closer to 25% DAS/70% G+, 5% other. But just like you I would be guessing. I really have no clue.

It's pretty easy to get factual info on the percentages. Not really a case of "no way of knowing." Simply stand by the LL line and count the percentage of people's tap-ins that are blue instead of green - and how many have a cast member verifying their picture on screen with the person scanning in. It should be very easy to calculate percentages based on this observation.

 

[Disneychick13]

It's pretty easy to get factual info on the percentages. Not really a case of "no way of knowing." Simply stand by the LL line and count the percentage of people's tap-ins that are blue instead of green - and how many have a cast member verifying their picture on screen with the person scanning in. It should be very easy to calculate percentages based on this observation.

Well you are probably right but no one has done that that I know of. And you would have to do it every day(all day) at every ride and get I would say at least a full week of data before you could get enough information to publish statistics that are accurate. I hope someone does it because that would be really interesting.

 

[lentesta]

While I have a lot of respect for Len Testa and what he’s doing, I clearly have some doubts about his source on the number of G+ users allowed per hour. I suspect it’s more than just 300/hr (which is only 5 people/minute which seems super low).

Thank you!

Yeah, my initial thought was that that reservations-per-hour number was very low too. I'm pretty confident in the source. They determined that by looking at how many G+ reservations had to be made in any given 5-minute period, for the return-time window to shift ahead by 5 minutes. That number appears to be 24. So 24 * 12 (the number of 5-minute periods in an hour) = 288. Let's say 300/hour because round numbers are easier to work with.

But I could be wrong, so if anyone has a better way of figuring out G+ allocation per attraction, I'd love to hear it.

For now, it might be helpful to invert the way we're asking the question: What if DAS usage is limiting the number of Genie+ reservations Disney can sell?

Here are some starting assumptions:

• Disney wants to keep the same ratio of standby guests to Lightning Lane as it did with FP+
  • That means admitting to a ride 3 or 4 LL guests for every 1 standby guest
• Disney has a decent idea of how much DAS use happens in the Lightning Lanes
  • The 2020 DAS lawsuit is helpful here:
    • Disney says 3% of guests in the park used the old Guest Assistance Card
    • For at least one attraction, those 3% of guests (and their families) used 30% of ride capacity
• When Genie+ costs $37 per person per day and ILLs are $20 pppd, a family of four is going to be more likely to seek out a DAS accommodation than pay $250 for Genie+ and ILL.

So if Disney *knows* that Haunted Mansion will have 1,200 DAS users per hour, that ratio limits the number of Genie+ reservations it can sell, because otherwise the ratio would have to change.

Like I said - I could be wrong on all of this. Discussions like this are great for figuring things out.

 

[Disneylover99]

DAS abuse has already been extensively discussed on this thread about 14 pages ago.

I’m not necessarily talking about abuse.

The current DAS pre-booking system came out around the same time that paid Genie plus was introduced. As mentioned somewhere upthread, there are people who have always qualified for DAS but never bothered to stand in line at Guest Services to get it in the past because they made do with fp.

Now, they’re getting DAS because Disney has made it easier to access, there are ride incentives to do it ahead of time, and they can avoid purchasing Genie+ if they wish.

 

[lentesta]

Well you are probably right but no one has done that that I know of. And you would have to do it every day(all day) at every ride and get I would say at least a full week of data before you could get enough information to publish statistics that are accurate. I hope someone does it because that would be really interesting.

I'm pretty sure that you can find a laminated card near the merge point of most attractions, that tells CMs what ratio to use based on the LL line length. The one at Peter Pan's Flight is usually on the column directly after the CM stand.

 

[lentesta]

I’m not necessarily talking about abuse.

The current DAS pre-booking system came out around the same time that paid Genie plus was introduced. As mentioned somewhere upthread, there are people who have always qualified for DAS but never bothered to stand in line at Guest Services to get it in the past because they made do with fp.

Now, they’re getting DAS because Disney has made it easier to access, there are ride incentives to do it ahead of time, and they can avoid purchasing Genie+ if they wish.

Good point. There's a very strong economic incentive now to use DAS if you think you qualify. And that incentive wasn't there when FastPass+ was free.

 

[lentesta]

Maybe @lentesta can clear this up. Were those assessing the Haunted Mansion LL looking to see what color came up on scan in?

This is a good point. I'll see if we can count this.

 

[mamaofsix]

This is a good point. I'll see if we can count this.

Thanks so much! Appreciate all you do for the Disney community, Len. After reading your analysis, the solution to decreasing DAS usage seems obvious to me: make fp free again!

 

[Disneychick13]

For now, it might be helpful to invert the way we're asking the question: What if DAS usage is limiting the number of Genie+ reservations Disney can sell?

That actually a really great question. I never thought of it that way. I have been under the assumption that DAS does not limit the number of Genie+ reservations doled out but what if it does? Interesting. Is that a knowable thing?

 

[Brian Noble]

They determined that by looking at how many G+ reservations had to be made in any given 5-minute period, for the return-time window to shift ahead by 5 minutes.

I'm trying to figure out how I would be able to know this. I would be surprised if this is calculated on the client-side, but I suppose it is possible, I haven't looked at the artifact/app. If it's not, the only way I can do it is by observation, But it's not as though I can make reservations while no one else is doing so, and I can't know how many other people are making reservations at the same time. If they are doing this by observation, whatever they come up with is a lower bound---it might be a reasonably good lower bound, or it might not be.

i also think 300/hr for G+ entries at e.g. Mansion is pretty low given the hourly capacity is north of 2,500, and close to 3,000. I would not be surprised to know that Disney planned to have half of the ride be LL returns, which would mean the total of 1,500 observed is just about on the money. The only question left is ratio of G+ to "other".

 

[starlite_]

I wonder how much it would help to reduce the amount of ppl that can go in with the DAS user. Say 4 ppl per DAS instead of 6 (with exceptions for extra kids). With the risk of sounding very mean, 6 ppl per DAS has always seemed very generous and then we see ppl asking if they can bring their sister and fam as well trying for 8 or more instead of those 6.

I've seen lots of posts here that seem to want to use DAS for the convenience of the adults with a DAS kid instead of to help the actual DAS user have a better experience.

 

[dreamer17555]

Speaking as a parent with an autistic kiddo who used DAS both before and after the Genie + roll out I think its complicated.

One thing that might be causing more usage of the DAS is simply that autism spectrum disorder is on the rise and now is at 1 in every 36 children in the US. Now ASD does not necessarily mean one needs\will qualify for DAS but it is something to consider.

Another item is that the revamp made DAS MUCH more user friendly. My son had DAS during FP+ but our family had difficulty in using it because at that time you had to physically go to the ride to obtain a return time... which often meant I had to walk with him to something he really wanted to do, make him stand there while they set up a return time, and then drag him away from said attraction. And no amount of "We are coming back to ride it later, I promise" would calm him down. It often just simply wasn't worth it unless we had someone else with us who could retrieve a return time for him.

Now I set DAS return times up on the app and we often start off the days by doing things like saying hello to the Magicband + statues (we never rope drop as the crowds are too much for him) and then I take him towards the DAS attraction when his window has opened. After said attraction it is time for a snack, or a low wait show (Mickey's Shorts, Philharmagic, Country Bears, etc) until another window has opened. I avoid putting him in areas where he is too close to a coveted attraction until his window is available.

When the FP+ system was in use we did it the same way except for then I could preplan out exactly our travel routes and locations for downtime some 60 days out and while we got him a DAS we rarely used it because as I explained above it often caused him more distress.

We have purchased Genie+ before to use with DAS but honestly the structure of needing to be on at 7 am to book made it too much of a hassle unless it is a very busy time of year or very hot (and because of his needs we avoid both).

Now are there people abusing the system? Sadly, yes. There was before and even more now with the financial aspect. Especially since the cost fluctuates by day so it's not even a set price that a family could budget. A five day trip, multipark genie+ for a family of five is over $600 (assuming an estimated cost of $25 and its been higher recently)... For some people that saving is enough to lie but also for some they already had a qualifying need and were making due with FP+ and skipped the DAS as not worth the hassle... Well it's less of a hassle now and if not adding on Genie+ with it can save a qualified family a good chunk of money.

 

[dreamer17555]

I wonder how much it would help to reduce the amount of ppl that can go in with the DAS user. Say 4 ppl per DAS instead of 6 (with exceptions for extra kids). With the risk of sounding very mean, 6 ppl per DAS has always seemed very generous and then we see ppl asking if they can bring their sister and fam as well trying for 8 or more instead of those 6.

I've seen lots of posts here that seem to want to use DAS for the convenience of the adults with a DAS kid instead of to help the actual DAS user have a better experience.

A family of 6 isn't that uncommon, and Disney has tons of rooms that sleep 5 so I cannot picture 4 being a limit.

As for adults wanting to use DAS for their convenience VS their qualifying child- I have seen ppl ask if they can use the DAS for an attraction their qualifying child won't\can't ride and yes that is upsetting but luckily Disney doesn't allow it. I will also try to extend some grace to those parents- daily life with a child with disabilities can be hard; a vacation can be downright brutal. And juggling a special needs kiddo with neurotypical siblings with their own needs\wants is a real challenge. Often I would have to make my daughter leave the park before she was ready to go because her brother hit his stimulation limit. She would have much preferred to rope drop and hit as many attractions as possible but her little brother struggled so much with those crowds the few times we tried it that it was no longer an option.

I guess what I am saying is none of this is perfect- not genie+ or DAS and yes some people are trying to game the system but most of us are just doing our best.

 

[starlite_]

A family of 6 isn't that uncommon, and Disney has tons of rooms that sleep 5 so I cannot picture 4 being a limit.

As for adults wanting to use DAS for their convenience VS their qualifying child- I have seen ppl ask if they can use the DAS for an attraction their qualifying child won't\can't ride and yes that is upsetting but luckily Disney doesn't allow it. I will also try to extend some grace to those parents- daily life with a child with disabilities can be hard; a vacation can be downright brutal. And juggling a special needs kiddo with neurotypical siblings with their own needs\wants is a real challenge. Often I would have to make my daughter leave the park before she was ready to go because her brother hit his stimulation limit. She would have much preferred to rope drop and hit as many attractions as possible but her little brother struggled so much with those crowds the few times we tried it that it was no longer an option.

I guess what I am saying is none of this is perfect- not genie+ or DAS and yes some people are trying to game the system but most of us are just doing our best.

I agree with you. In fact, I specifically mentioned exceptions for kids because I understand that a lot of families can have 3+.

What I can't understand is 5 neurotypical adults getting in with a DAS user, no matter the age of the DAS user. And I say this as someone who has gone exclusively with adults since there are no kids in the fam past my generation.

If something needs to give to reduce DAS abuse, cutting 1-2 adults (actual adults, not Disney's 13yo "adults") per DAS user seems to me like it might help. But I can't say that for sure, only Disney can.

It's just a thought too, I'm sure there would be other exceptions just like with current DAS.

 

[SL6827]

DAS abuse has already been extensively discussed on this thread about 14 pages ago. I'll copy and paste my answer here for you.

I have adopted children with disabilities, so hope I can help:

1) DAS is VERY hard to get, and extremely difficult to "cheat." Disney rebuilt all of their lines so that anyone with a wheelchair or EVC can go in the regular line. DAS is mostly for those with invisible disabilities (Autism, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder, Bladder control issues) who cannot wait in a regular line, either sitting or standing. If you check the DISabilities board, you'll see how many people are denied DAS on a regular basis. More are denied than accepted. It is an arduous process to get DAS in advance of your trip. It took me 10 hours of waiting online and going through multiple chats to get it for my children last trip. My children had to be present for video chats and interviews.

2)DAS is NOT the same as skipping the line with paid G+. With G+, you simply select the ride and can often ride almost right away. You can also stack attractions. With DAS, you get a return time that is equal in length to the current standby. Say the standby wait for Flight of Passage is 120 minutes. You get a return time that is 120 minutes after your selection. You cannot select any other rides to use DAS on until after you have checked into Flight of Passage 120 minutes later. The point of DAS is that you can wait to ride in a space that is not claustrophobic or hard to escape for the person with disabilities. For example, I can wait with my child with disabilities on a park bench, etc. until our time is called. If they freak out on the park bench or I need to rush them to the bathroom, I am able to move them (unlike a line that is locked in). Once our 2 hours of waiting for FoP is up, we will ride.

3)Many people with DAS choose to also buy G+ and use a combination of the two systems (due to the clunky nature of the process described above). I'll repeat it again - Many people with DAS also pay for G+

4)If I had to guess, I'd say that exponentially more people in the lightning lane are there due to G+, not DAS

As has been noted upthread, it's easy to tell who is using DAS by the color at scan in. The cast member also has to match a picture of the guest that pops up on their screen with who is scanning in, to make sure they match - this takes time and it's a very noticeable process. Maybe @lentesta can clear this up. Were those assessing the Haunted Mansion LL looking to see what color came up on scan in? Were they counting how many parties were paused while they got their pictures verified by cast members when they scanned in? As DAS users, we VERY RARELY see other DAS users scan in - they are extremely few and far between, as noted by the poster up thread.

Bladder control issues? Wouldn't that apply to most women over the age of 40?

 

[Philsfan77]

Good point about the addition of the paid system now. Even more incentive to try. I just can't imagine. What in the world do they come up with that would qualify them for DAS?

Based on some of the TikToks out there about people giving tips to get DAS, bathroom issues seem to be a top one. There was a thread in the DISabilities group as well addressing this, and that Disneyland has recently started denying some people with bathroom issues, and are instead giving them a bathroom pass. Havent seen the follow up yet on what that truly looks like or if that was just a one off situation, but this would be a pretty easy one to just say...I get the runs and can't control it or when I have to go, so I can't stand in a line.