New Knott's Berry Farm (Possibly All Cedar Fair Parks) Assistance Policy

[Evita_W]

That's exactly the opposite of how the National Parks access is done. Are you sure you are correct, because to me it sounds like you have it backwards.

No, the national parks have equal access already, anyone can pay and enter, regardless of if they have a disability or not. What the National Parks offer is free access with proof of disability because there are many trails and such that simply cannot be made accessible. Because there is a monetary value here they can require proof since there is already a system in place that provides the same access at the same cost. The National Parks are simply being nice because they understand that those with disabilities won't be able to fully enjoy the parks, they technically would not have to do this, as even the ADA does state that if something absolutely cannot be made accessible it can be exempt, especially naturally occurring barriers.

I'm thinking you misunderstood what I was saying though:

• There must always be equal accommodations made whenever possible and without the need for proof.
• Proof can be required if there is an accommodation made available that is above and beyond what others can get at the same cost, especially if there is a monetary value involved.
  • For example, if you go to ride a bus and are using a mobility device, they are required to let you on, but can charge you the full fare. But many municipalities will offer free or reduced fare if you provide proof of disability.

So for say a theme park, they would have to provide a free option that doesn't require proof, say like how the DAS works.

Let's look at Universal as an example, they have a Return Time Pass that is available with no documentation.

But if they decided to do so, they could also offer a free or discounted Express Pass to those with disabilities if they provide proof of disability. Please note Universal doesn't currently do this, I am just using this as an example of what would be allowed to require proof of disability and what wouldn't. But they would be required to offer an option that doesn't require a doctors note and at no cost above and beyond what everyone else can pay to get access to a location.

 

[DisneyOma]

It depends on if others can access the attraction for free or not. If they can, then there would have to be access that is equal to that which doesn't cost money, but they could require proof to obtain the paid level of access.

If everyone has to pay, they don't have to make access free, but if the system needs accomodations made.to.make access equal, then proof cannot be required.

In short there always has to be a system to provide equal access in which a doctor's note is not required. Now in some cases regular access may be sufficient, in which case no special system is required.

No, the national parks have equal access already, anyone can pay and enter, regardless of if they have a disability or not. What the National Parks offer is free access with proof of disability because there are many trails and such that simply cannot be made accessible. Because there is a monetary value here they can require proof since there is already a system in place that provides the same access at the same cost. The National Parks are simply being nice because they understand that those with disabilities won't be able to fully enjoy the parks, they technically would not have to do this, as even the ADA does state that if something absolutely cannot be made accessible it can be exempt, especially naturally occurring barriers.

I'm thinking you misunderstood what I was saying though:

• There must always be equal accommodations made whenever possible and without the need for proof.
• Proof can be required if there is an accommodation made available that is above and beyond what others can get at the same cost, especially if there is a monetary value involved.
  • For example, if you go to ride a bus and are using a mobility device, they are required to let you on, but can charge you the full fare. But many municipalities will offer free or reduced fare if you provide proof of disability.

So for say a theme park, they would have to provide a free option that doesn't require proof, say like how the DAS works.

Let's look at Universal as an example, they have a Return Time Pass that is available with no documentation.

But if they decided to do so, they could also offer a free or discounted Express Pass to those with disabilities if they provide proof of disability. Please note Universal doesn't currently do this, I am just using this as an example of what would be allowed to require proof of disability and what wouldn't. But they would be required to offer an option that doesn't require a doctors note and at no cost above and beyond what everyone else can pay to get access to a location.

This is what is confusing me - you've stated so many contradictions in each that it makes no sense. If you get a service for free that someone else has to pay for, you can be asked for proof of your disability, yes?

 

[camper06]

This is what is confusing me - you've stated so many contradictions in each that it makes no sense. If you get a service for free that someone else has to pay for, you can be asked for proof of your disability, yes?

It depends on if others can access the attraction for free or not. If they can, then there would have to be access that is equal to that which doesn't cost money, but they could require proof to obtain the paid level of access.

If everyone has to pay, they don't have to make access free, but if the system needs accomodations made.to.make access equal, then proof cannot be required.

In short there always has to be a system to provide equal access in which a doctor's note is not required. Now in some cases regular access may be sufficient, in which case no special system is required.

i believe your answer is in her first paragraph?

"but they could require proof to obtain the paid level of access."

 

[Evita_W]

This is what is confusing me - you've stated so many contradictions in each that it makes no sense. If you get a service for free that someone else has to pay for, you can be asked for proof of your disability, yes?

There is nothing contradictory at all.

There MUST be a free level of access that is equal to what everyone else can get that reasonably accommodates disabilities without proof. Some examples would include (and are not limited to) a ramp or elevator to bypass stairs. If there are what are considered exceptionally long waits somewhere and there is a disability that would prevent a person from waiting in the line, there would need to be an alternative place to wait, in Disney's case they use the DAS to accomplish this, I'm sure there are other systems that could be put in place and comply with the law, but this is what Disney uses to provide equal access to what those without such disabilities can get, so no proof can be required.

Now, for arguments sale, let's say instead of FP coming back, Disney implements a line bypass system and charged say $150 a day for it. Now, let's say they offered it for free (or at a reduced rate even) to those with disabilities, for this they could retire proof; however, they would still be required to provide the DAS (or similar system that complies with the law) without proof of disability.

National Parks are a bit unique because a good chunk of the parks simply can't be made accessible under any circumstances. So, because they know that those with disabilities cannot access the full park, they offer free access with proof of disability. But they are still required to offer ramps, elevators, ada stalls in the bathrooms and such without proof of disability, as anyone can pay to enter the park with or without disability and have access.

 

[Evita_W]

But this has gotten way off topic, let's please try to get back to the original point of how Cedar Fair has changed their system and if it is all Cedar Fair Parks, or just some of them.

 

[JLTraveling]

Let's look at Universal as an example, they have a Return Time Pass that is available with no documentation.

But if they decided to do so, they could also offer a free or discounted Express Pass to those with disabilities if they provide proof of disability. Please note Universal doesn't currently do this, I am just using this as an example of what would be allowed to require proof of disability and what wouldn't. But they would be required to offer an option that doesn't require a doctors note and at no cost above and beyond what everyone else can pay to get access to a location.

Actually, Universal does have two levels of access (that I have personally experienced) above the no documentation level. My dad has one that functions very much like a free Express Pass for up to six people (two during HHN). He had to submit significant medical documentation, far beyond just a doctor's note, and have it approved by the parks' disability manager, but now it's in their system (annual passholder). And an acquaintance has the next level up, which is immediate back door access to any attraction, escorted by a team lead. I don't know her that well, so I don't know exactly what the process was to get it, but I imagine it was even more heavily scrutinized than what my dad experienced.

I have no idea if Disney has similar levels of higher access, but it seems likely that they would. At the very least, there's the Make a Wish system, but I would imagine there's also very restricted higher access for others as well.

 

[Evita_W]

I wouldn't be at all surprised, but honestly reverb if I knew such levels existed, I probably wouldn't mention them as I wouldn't want anyone to try to find a way to have that system. Those levels are there for a reason and should be reserved solely for those that truly need that and I wouldn't want to do anything that would jeopardize that level for those that need it.

 

[JLTraveling]

I wouldn't be at all surprised, but honestly reverb if I knew such levels existed, I probably wouldn't mention them as I wouldn't want anyone to try to find a way to have that system. Those levels are there for a reason and should be reserved solely for those that truly need that and I wouldn't want to do anything that would jeopardize that level for those that need it.

But that makes no sense. How is anyone who needs it going to know that it's even an option, versus maybe deciding they're too disabled to go at all, if no one admits it exists? And the sheer amount of documentation involved, which is all verified over a multi-week process, means that while it may not be 100% foolproof it's pretty darn close.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I doubt Disney has anything like that, outside of MAW type orgs. Any system that allows that kind of accelerated access on a consistent basis would most likely have been exposed during the DAS lawsuit, since no wait, back door access all the time was what the plaintiff was suing for.

 

[Evita_W]

But that makes no sense. How is anyone who needs it going to know that it's even an option, versus maybe deciding they're too disabled to go at all, if no one admits it exists? And the sheer amount of documentation involved, which is all verified over a multi-week process, means that while it may not be 100% foolproof it's pretty darn close.

If enough people learn about it, any system that provides back door access will be open to fraud no matter how much verification is being done.

 

[Evita_W]

Back to the original topic, we have found another advantage to this "reverse wait system."

With the DAS, There are often times when you return to an attraction based on your return time only to find a line of other people with return times, particularly if you also need a mobility device causing a long wait when you return and you have to go on that ride or get a new return time before using the pass.

With the Knott's system you can simply choose to ride a different ride if this happens and by the time your next ride is available the number of people in front of you has decreased from what it would have been. This also benefits them as they end up with fewer people waiting in their alternative queue, which often has limited space.

 

[NotTheBatesMotel]

I can confirm this system is in place at my home park Kings Dominion in VA (another Cedar Fair park). We've already been to KD 3 times this year using the new system. Honestly, this was a welcome change at KD because changing the system meant the employees are actually trained on it now. We had nothing but issues trying to use the old system because the employees had no idea what they were doing. In years past we resorted to only going during the weekdays to avoid waits so we wouldn't need their form of the DAS system. This year we've only encountered 1 employee that didn't grasp the new system.

We also used this system at Dollywood last month. It worked well there! I can see it being annoying at a park with longer waits like WDW. I'm imagining exiting Splash with a 90 minute line and having to wait 90 minutes for a ride like Under the Sea. It probably all balances out in the end though and I did enjoy not having to run around getting return times.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I can confirm this system is in place at my home park Kings Dominion in VA (another Cedar Fair park). We've already been to KD 3 times this year using the new system. Honestly, this was a welcome change at KD because changing the system meant the employees are actually trained on it now. We had nothing but issues trying to use the old system because the employees had no idea what they were doing. In years past we resorted to only going during the weekdays to avoid waits so we wouldn't need their form of the DAS system. This year we've only encountered 1 employee that didn't grasp the new system.

We also used this system at Dollywood last month. It worked well there! I can see it being annoying at a park with longer waits like WDW. I'm imagining exiting Splash with a 90 minute line and having to wait 90 minutes for a ride like Under the Sea. It probably all balances out in the end though and I did enjoy not having to run around getting return times.

You wouldn’t have to wait 90 minutes for Under the Sea, as you could go straight into the line without using the return time you were issued at Splash

 

[Evita_W]

You wouldn’t have to wait 90 minutes for Under the Sea, as you could go straight into the line without using the return time you were issued at Splash

I think they meant having to wait for 80 minutes after, but really what does it matter if you wait the 90 minutes before or after? Either way you can still do other things that you don't need the pass for.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I think they meant having to wait for 80 minutes after, but really what does it matter if you wait the 90 minutes before or after? Either way you can still do other things that you don't need the pass for.

that’s what I’m saying though,unless they wanted to use the pass to go right onto Under the Sea, they would just have to get in line and wait that way.

 

[Evita_W]

Although I have never seen a 90 minute wait for little mermaid.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Although I have never seen a 90 minute wait for little mermaid.

Yes, I know - that’s my point