Here's An Idea!!

[havoc315]

.

Which is why they use the qualifier "can". Maybe you will, maybe you won't. I like the dining plan because I can order food I'm too cheap to order in restaurants at home . Despite living in New England, I never had lobster until one night at Narcoossee's!

That's you. I don't worry about money I already spent (see the Serenity Poem).

Actually, they promote it as a pure savings plan. Try booking a reservation, they simply say "do you want to save on dining"

But let me understand this.. You're too cheap to pay $25 for a steak, but you have no problem Pre-paying $50 for the exact same steak?

That's the situation people are in, if the plan is solely Pre-payment as opposed to savings.
The dollar loss isn't yet as big as the above hypothetical. It's more like... Is someoe too cheap to spend $45 per day on food, but they don't mind Pre-paying $53.

 

[havoc315]

It will actually likely 'work' for the majority of Guests - not the one's who close those two restaurants and those exact menu items every single day, but then who wouldn't get sick of the same thing day after day after day...? The CS dessert you don't need could be fruit for later or breakfast the next day, but it's up to the Guest to get value from the convenience of any WDW Dining Plan.

Mathematically, I believe with 2012 pricing, the ddp works for the minority of guests. I am not talking about the DxDP which is a totally different formula.
I demonstrated that even picking fairly expensive items, the plan is a loss.

 

[havoc315]

Respectfully, I've been participating in the DDP since its inception in 2005, and reading the material online and in person. I've always been able to understand the conditions.

I don't see anywhere that WDW is intentionally confusing anyone; customers really have to take some responsibility for knowing what they're buying - or else don't buy it! At least not until you do some research.

Refusing to tell people the price isn't intentionally confusing??

If you specifically explicitly ask a cm for the price, they won't tell you.

 

[kaytieeldr]

But let me understand this.. You're too cheap to pay $25 for a steak, but you have no problem Pre-paying $50 for the exact same steak?

Nope. I'm too cheap to pay for surf & turf, but I'll use two DDP credits because it's a good value to me.

 

[havoc315]

May I ask how you think keeping track of a remaining dollar total is easier than keeping track of snack, counter service, or table service credits when those remaining credits are printed out on the appropriate receipt after you use that type of credit?
?

Because the receipt would list dollars remaining. Not 3 different types of credits. Not adult credits versus kids credits.

Which is simpler;
Example a: your party of 4 has $200 remaining

Or example b: your party of 4 has 5 TS credits, 4 CS credits, and 7 snacks remaining"

 

[kaytieeldr]

Refusing to tell people the price isn't intentionally confusing??

If you specifically explicitly ask a cm for the price, they won't tell you.

I've never known any travel agent anywhere, any time, to break down the individual component prices of a travel package. That's the whole point of a package. The CMs at WDTC may not even have that information, or the time to calculate it. a Guest purchasing a package really can take some responsibility - while you're asking the cost of the DDP, whip out your cell phone and calculate the difference between a package with it and one without it (since you had the forethought to request both) or simply shop online and figure it out yourself.

 

[havoc315]

Nope. I'm too cheap to pay for surf & turf, but I'll use two DDP credits because it's a good value to me.

Subjectively, it may be a good value to you. Maybe the surf and turf is subjectively worth a million dollars to you.
But mathematically, it is a bad value. Especially under 2012 pricing. If you use 2 standard ddp credits to get it, you are paying more, than if you just skipped the plan.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Because the receipt would list dollars remaining. Not 3 different types of credits. Not adult credits versus kids credits.

Which is simpler;
Example a: your party of 4 has $200 remaining

Or example b: your party of 4 has 5 TS credits, 4 CS credits, and 7 snacks remaining"

Your gift card suggestion circumvents pretty much every (entirely reasonable) restriction Wal Disney World has in place with its current Dining Plans.

Let me ask - when you go on a cruise or an all-inclusive vacation or even to a county fair, do you question the price/cost of each individual component? What do you do to ensure you're getting every possible penny of value and more for your money? Heck, even when you go to Walt Disney World, how can you be sure you're getting the best possible value? Do you make sure you visit every single attraction in every park? Did you know The Unofficial Guide has a challenge for following their MK tour (at least they did a couple of years ago )?

 

[rachel09985]

This thread is getting ridiculous! People have their own opinions on everything and nothing is right nor wrong so I don't get why the two proponents of this thread are trying to force their idea down everyone's throat and claiming that it is the best idea ever?? Maybe for you not no way for me! I would never get the gift card to replace the dining plan but would get the gift card if the dining plan wasn't available. The gift card would be a horrible replacement for the DP at least for me.

Why would you possible want to figure out the dollars on the gift card as opposed to figuring out the 1 a day for table service, snack, and counter service? You get one of each per day...that is NOT hard at all to follow!! If you don't like dessert and would rather get an appetizer and don't like steak yeah the gift card would work for you, but not for me!

 

[kaytieeldr]

And many people create their own Dining Plan BY putting a certain dollar value on a gift card and designating that for only dining.

 

[havoc315]

Your gift card suggestion circumvents pretty much every (entirely reasonable) restriction Wal Disney World has in place with its current Dining Plans.

Let me ask - when you go on a cruise or an all-inclusive vacation or even to a county fair, do you question the price/cost of each individual component? What do you do to ensure you're getting every possible penny of value and more for your money? : )?

Lol. What a totally irrelevant comparison. A cruise is all inclusive. You can't opt out of the dining.
On the other hand, if I go to a restaurant, and I ask, "how much is the brownie dessert?"
I expect an honest answer. Not, "we can't tell you the price, but after you eat it, you can see the whole price of your combined meal."

On a cruise, I routinely book excursions. And yes, I am told the price of these add ons.

In terms of squeezing pennies.. It's not squeezing pennies. Its about not being ripped off. Any honest consumer exchange starts with an honest price. A customer should know what he is being charged, and what he is getting.

How would you feel if you were quoted a price, for example. You were quoted an all inclusive vacation price of $999 including room, board, and all taxes and fees. You show up on your vacation, and they insist you need to pay an extra $500. They then point to ultra microscopic fine print that says, "a check in fee may apply."
Turns out the check in fee is $500, and you would have known if you read the message board online.

You would feel ripped off -- by the price dishonesty.

Disney does everything possible to conceal the prices of the different plans. That is not an ethical business practice.

 

[havoc315]

This thread is getting ridiculous! People have their own opinions on everything and nothing is right nor wrong so I don't get why the two proponents of this thread are trying to force their idea down everyone's throat and claiming that it is the best idea ever?? Maybe for you not no way for me! I would never get the gift card to replace the dining plan but would get the gift card if the dining plan wasn't available. The gift card would be a horrible replacement for the DP at least for me.

Why would you possible want to figure out the dollars on the gift card as opposed to figuring out the 1 a day for table service, snack, and counter service? You get one of each per day...that is NOT hard at all to follow!! If you don't like dessert and would rather get an appetizer and don't like steak yeah the gift card would work for you, but not for me!

Nobody is trying to force anything on anybody. Nobody is denying that the ddp can work for some people.
All that is being done, is a discussion of alternative plan designs that would actually work for virtually all consumers. (a plan where ALL consumers can save money, as opposed to a small subset that eat in a very specific way. )

Why would I rather track $$$ as opposed to credits??

Lets use a movie theater example Which would you rather have:
Choice 1-- $20, to spend on any movie, any showing, and any snacks you want.
Or, choice 2-- a credit, that can be exchanged for a matinee showing of only g-rated movies, and a tub of popcorn.

Let's say both choices cost $18. Which would you pick? The "credit" with all the restrictions? Or the cash, to spend however you like?

 

[kaytieeldr]

Lol. What a totally irrelevant comparison. A cruise is all inclusive. You can't opt out of the dining.

Not irrelevant. Your alcohol isn't included. Your soda other than at meals isn't included. Do you regularly choose the most expensive items on the menu on a cruise, or if you feel like having a hamburger at the buffet instead do you think you're not getting your money's worth out of the dining portion of the cruise fare even though they didn't break down the costs for you? Why is 'not knowing' on a cruise acceptable - because it's a one-price package? - but not when it comes to a Walt Disney World vacation even when you're perfectly capable of deter ing or researching the price yourself? Is it the marketing? WDW is all about personalizing the experience. Not everybody wants a dining plan, or the same one. That's why they don't do all-inclusive pricing, why they give you options.

On a cruise, I routinely book excursions. And yes, I am told the price of these add ons.

On a WDW visit, package or not, I routinely book tours and special activities. And yes, I am told the price of these add-ons. I don't get your point.

In terms of squeezing pennies.. It's not squeezing pennies. Its about not being ripped off. Any honest consumer exchange starts with an honest price. A customer should know what he is being charged, and what he is getting.

The customer is getting the honest price - the price of the package. I'm not sure why you're refusing to believe this, or what issue you have with it. Again, I have never known any Travel Agent anywhere to break down and provide the living of the individual components of a package. That's what a package IS. If you find a TA willing to give you the DP price per person per night, it's because she or he did the calculations on their own. But the provider or packager? Nope.

You can do that, too.
Or buy an AP and book an AP MYW package.
Or make a DVC reservation using points.

Or just wait until there's a 2012 Dining Plan sticky here on the DIS, and one of the Moderators will have done the math for you.

 

[havoc315]

Not irrelevant. Your alcohol isn't included. Your soda other than at meals isn't included. Do you regularly choose the most expensive items on the menu on a cruise, or if you feel like having a hamburger at the buffet instead do you think you're not getting your money's worth out of the dining portion of the cruise fare even though they didn't break down the costs for you? Why is 'not knowing' on a cruise acceptable - because it's a one-price package? - but not when it comes to a Walt Disney World vacation even when you're perfectly capable of deter ing or researching the price yourself? Is it the marketing? WDW is all about personalizing the experience. Not everybody wants a dining plan, or the same one. That's why they don't do all-inclusive pricing, why they give you options.

On a WDW visit, package or not, I routinely book tours and special activities. And yes, I am told the price of these add-ons. I don't get your point.

The customer is getting the honest price - the price of the package. I'm not sure why you're refusing to believe this, or what issue you have with it. Again, I have never known any Travel Agent anywhere to break down and provide the living of the individual components of a package. That's what a package IS. If you find a TA willing to give you the DP price per person per night, it's because she or he did the calculations on their own. But the provider or packager? Nope.

You can do that, too.
Or buy an AP and book an AP MYW package.
Or make a DVC reservation using points.

Or just wait until there's a 2012 Dining Plan sticky here on the DIS, and one of the Moderators will have done the math for you.

Apparently, you are indeed missing the point. Though they claim the price can't be broken down due to it being a package, that is a lie. The math has been done. We know the price, having figured it out for ourselves. Except for "free dining," the price is the same. Doesn't matter which hotel you book, or which tickets you buy. They publish their ticket prices. They publish the hotel prices. The refuse to publish the ddp price. You either need to do the math yourself, or go to a 3rd party site like this.
In fact, I can't think of another example of any product, where the seller refuses to disclose the price.

Why is Disney willing to tell you the price of the hotel, the tickets, the Mickey Mouse souvenir ears, the golf green fees, dinner at the Royal Table, but they won't tell you the price of the dining plans. You can defend this as normal business. But it's not like any other normal ethical business practice I have ever seen.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Why is Disney willing to tell you the price of the hotel, the tickets, the Mickey Mouse souvenir ears, the golf green fees, dinner at the Royal Table, but they won't tell you the price of the dining plans. You can defend this as normal business. But it's not like any other normal ethical business practice I have ever seen.

Because the typical visitor can't book a Dining Plan except as part of a package.
. As for it not being 'like any other normal ethical business practice', well, go into any Travel Agency - Liberty Travel, Vacation Outlet, local agency - and ask for a breakdown of the costs on any package.
That same guest can, however, book just a hotel room; or just tickets; or just a tee time; or, if you have the right phone number, order something you saw in a store onsite via telephone. The few guests who can get a dining plan without a (typical) package actually can - must, in fact - be given the DDP stand-alone pricing.

Walt Disney Travel Company is by no means unique in their refusal to break down package pricing. Whatever company puts a package together doesn't break it down for the resellers. It's a package for a reason. Everything is in one container. In this case, you the consumer can do the math. It's not the responsibility of the travel provider to do it for you.

 

[Cafeen]

Or just wait until there's a 2012 Dining Plan sticky here on the DIS, and one of the Moderators will have done the math for you.

I already did. The day the package prices for 2012 came out . You can search for the 2012 prices thread somewhere around these parts for the details.

---

The $500 check-in fee is dissimilar from the DDP and not a valid comparison at all. Every extra "fee" associated with DDP (mostly tips and non-included items) is well documented. Check out and count how many times the DDP brochures make mention of these facts (it's at least once per page).

Now, I'm going to start this off by saying that many of you know me in some sense, this may change your opinion of me, but so be it.

The truth of the matter is that I don't want someone who just willy-nilly picks up the plan with no thought to what they're buying to save as much as I do if I plan it out ahead of time. If they're too stupid to research what they just spent several hundred or thousands of dollars on, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. In today's world, there are no businesses out there for the good of the customer, and that certainly includes Disney. By being a stupid consumer, you deserve to not reap the benefits that those who research and put time and effort into sorting out do.

Of course, that only covers part of the GC target, and I do feel for the other part (those without TiW available who the plan simply doesn't work), but it is what it is. We've all agreed that the dining plan can work, with forethought and research and maybe some math help (no, you don't have to do the math by yourself, I certainly know it can get complicated ).

In the end, it's a benefit if the company were to offer both solutions. Keep the marketing as is for DDP (so long as it's moderately feasible, as it stands today, even for 2012) and offer a lower "guaranteed" percent savings for the GC. This would solve (at least for now...) both problems that I care about (DDP offering savings to those who do their homework and that it works for, and the "bonus" GC offering guaranteed savings to those who it doesn't).

Opening up TiW sounds like it would also work, but due to the lack of CS that's available for TiW, it may not. It'd certainly be a good idea (and charging $150-$200 per card would be more likely for those without FL or AP discounts (and add DVC to that list while I'm pretending to run Disney )).

In the end, I'm a selfish jerk*. I don't care about those who are not bothered to do any research on a multi-thousand dollar expense. If they end up without any savings (or even spending more than they would otherwise), it's their fault, not Disney's (nor mine, nor Havoc's, nor anyone else's). It's all about the personal responsibility that's preached everywhere else on these boards.

*Note: I know that no one has done any name calling, and especially towards me. Not saying it sarcastically. Then again, it's not always bad to be selfish at times!

...
They publish their ticket prices. They publish the hotel prices. The refuse to publish the ddp price. You either need to do the math yourself, or go to a 3rd party site like this.
In fact, I can't think of another example of any product, where the seller refuses to disclose the price.

Why is Disney willing to tell you the price of the hotel, the tickets, the Mickey Mouse souvenir ears, the golf green fees, dinner at the Royal Table, but they won't tell you the price of the dining plans. You can defend this as normal business. But it's not like any other normal ethical business practice I have ever seen.

Well, the answer may be a bit more simpler than you think. Every other example you listed can be purchased by anyone stand-alone. Whereas the DDP is only available to a small portion without purchasing anything else. I can rent just a room. I can buy just the tickets. I can buy just a pair of Mickey Ears (they are available via other sources, so don't even need a park ticket to get them). I can't buy just a dining plan.

As far as naming one other company? How much do you pay for texting on your phone? Not voice, not data, not fees/taxes, not even the "per text" charge, just the texting part that's part of the package? How much do you pay for just HLN on TV? Not the whole package or any of the bits, just that one channel? When you buy a computer (not counting people who build their own), how much do you pay for the Motherboard? How about the hard drive? CPU? They don't disclose any of this information either. You can compare the differences between different (very limited) selections, but they do not give you a "This hard drive cost $45".

Are these all unethical too?

 

[clintswifeymomof4]

I can't buy just a dining plan.

Hi Cafeen- I'm in Mobile too...

... while you cannot buy a stand alone dining plan, you can purchase oop and from a strictly monetary standpoint, as Jimmy & Havoc have numerously pointed out, buying the plan vs buying oop doesn't make sense for the average consumer.

I just don't get what is so hard to understand about math?

I have a bs in Finance and also a Masters... but I would think anyone could realize that prepaying $53 for a meal you could purchase oop the day of for $25 (or $10 or whatever) is ridiculous from a monetary standpoint. We aren't dummies so we all realize that Disney, albeit promoting this plan as a savings plan, is just trying to make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside while they try and rob us blind.

Sure, the plan makes sense for those who shall remain nameless spend hours planning an itinerary around restaurants and researching menus to ensure they don't dare order what they really want so they can come out ahead... or those who like to eat like gluttons... or those who have $ to burn... or those that simply don't care and want convenience.

All of the argument over breaking down package pricing is ridiculous... but lets go there. I can rent this tuxedo package which includes the tux and shoes for $53 or I can rent the tux and just buy the shoes from their shelf when I pick it up for $25. Why would I overpay & why do some think the additional cost of the 'shoes' is insignificant information to know up front?

Financially- the dining plan does not make sense for the average consumer, i.e. you will overpay by prepaying for this plan. It will either change your consumption behaviors allowing you to 'beat the system' or you will lose money.

Either way, havoc and Jimmy are 100% correct in this information. The math doesn't lie.

At least with a gift card, there is no guesswork in trying to figure out the monetary value. It is what it is. While your consumption behaviors may change because of other factors, you will no longer be prompted to get the most expensive menu item and drink soda when all you wanted was a salad and water.

I personally think it is brilliant but why won't Disney do it? Because they make more money with the dining plans... hence we have come full circle on the dining plan value debacle... more $ in Disney's pocket, less $ in yours.

Business is business. If you think that Disney is trying to save you money by offering a dining plan, be my guest and use it and have fun toting home a suitcase full of Mickey Mouse head rice krispie treats for your kid's teacher. I'll save my $53 and buy food I actually want to eat instead of conforming to a gluttonous plan.

 

[havoc315]

As far as naming one other company? How much do you pay for texting on your phone? Not voice, not data, not fees/taxes, not even the "per text" charge, just the texting part that's part of the package? How much do you pay for just HLN on TV? Not the whole package or any of the bits, just that one channel? When you buy a computer (not counting people who build their own), how much do you pay for the Motherboard? How about the hard drive? CPU? They don't disclose any of this information either. You can compare the differences between different (very limited) selections, but they do not give you a "This hard drive cost $45".

Are these all unethical too?

All those examples are incorrect.
Texting --- if I wanted texting, it would have been an extra $5 per month, or .29 per text. Very clearly laid out in all my cell provider literature.
Cable tv-- price of the basic package is clearly laid out. The price of all add-ons is clearly laid out. If I want to add HBO, it is $16.99 per month. (remember, ddp is not "included" in a basic ddp package. It is an add-on, like adding HBO)
When buying my computer-- I go to the store, and each computer has a clearly marked price. If I want to add a printer, the printer prices are clearly marked. If I want to add a monitor, the prices are clearly marked. Again, the ddp is a printer -- it's an add-on. It's not a motherboard. I can't say, "I want that computer, but without the motherboard.". Yet I can get a Disney package without a dining plan.

It's not just unethical, Disney's hidden pricing would be blatantly illegal in some states. (I will assume Florida's consumer protection laws are less strict.)

It seems as if people are saying it is entirely natural and expected that Disney would hide the ddp price, but this is very very new. They only stopped listing the price on their website about a year ago.
Last year, at this time, when they were still selling the 2010 ddp, the website clearly stated, "add the ddp for under $42 per adult, per night."

So a very simple question. As they had never had any trouble listing the price before, Why starting with the 2011 pricing, did they refuse to list the price? What changed?

The answer is obvious and it has nothing to do with "package" pricing. When the ddp was a good deal for most people, they happily listed the price. As they raised the price to the point where it became a bad deal for most people, they started to hide the price, in the hope that people would book it out of habit or ignorance.

 

[kaytieeldr]

It seems as if people are saying it is entirely natural and expected that Disney would hide the ddp price, but this is very very new. They only stopped listing the price on their website about a year ago.

One more time - it is entirely natural and expected that any travel provider would be unable to break down the price of the components of any travel package. Try it yourself. Enter any local Travel Agency (one with an ad in today's paper would be perfect) and ask about a package you saw. Then ask about the individual prices. They can't, or won't, break it down for you. WDTC could, but they won't - because the bulk of dining plan users couldn't possibly purchase it as an individual component, so what would be the point?

The relatively few guests who can add a Dining Plan without a typical (or any) package and so do need to know the nightly price, are given it. MYW package guests have to do a little work/math. That's just the way it is. Nobody is forcing anyone to purchase a Dining Plan. If you think it's not a good value, don't get it. Keep in mind, though - you're using next year's DP cost with this year's menu pricing.

Texting --- if I wanted texting, it would have been an extra $5 per month, or .29 per text. Very clearly laid out in all my cell provider literature.

That's your plan. Mine is different - all services for one price, no breakdown. If I were to call, I'd be told, "that's included in your service, we can't give you an individual price".

Cable tv-- price of the basic package is clearly laid out. The price of all add-ons is clearly laid out. If I want to add HBO, it is $16.99 per month. (remember, ddp is not "included" in a basic ddp package. It is an add-on, like adding HBO)

That's, again, not what she asked. HLN is part of your cable package. Your cable company can't tell you how much HLN (or ESPN, or USA...) costs you each month.

It's not just unethical, Disney's hidden pricing would be blatantly illegal in some states. (I will assume Florida's consumer protection laws are less strict.)

Hidden? How? Where??? "This package with room and tickets will cost you $1,000. If you add the Dining Plan it will cost you $1,600. No, I'm sorry, I can't break down the prices for you."

That's hidden to you?

 

[Cafeen]

Hi Cafeen- I'm in Mobile too...

... while you cannot buy a stand alone dining plan, you can purchase oop and from a strictly monetary standpoint, as Jimmy & Havoc have numerously pointed out, buying the plan vs buying oop doesn't make sense for the average consumer.

I just don't get what is so hard to understand about math?

I have a bs in Finance and also a Masters... but I would think anyone could realize that prepaying $53 for a meal you could purchase oop the day of for $25 (or $10 or whatever) is ridiculous from a monetary standpoint. We aren't dummies so we all realize that Disney, albeit promoting this plan as a savings plan, is just trying to make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside while they try and rob us blind.

Sure, the plan makes sense for those who shall remain nameless spend hours planning an itinerary around restaurants and researching menus to ensure they don't dare order what they really want so they can come out ahead... or those who like to eat like gluttons... or those who have $ to burn... or those that simply don't care and want convenience.

All of the argument over breaking down package pricing is ridiculous... but lets go there. I can rent this tuxedo package which includes the tux and shoes for $53 or I can rent the tux and just buy the shoes from their shelf when I pick it up for $25. Why would I overpay & why do some think the additional cost of the 'shoes' is insignificant information to know up front?

Financially- the dining plan does not make sense for the average consumer, i.e. you will overpay by prepaying for this plan. It will either change your consumption behaviors allowing you to 'beat the system' or you will lose money.

Either way, havoc and Jimmy are 100% correct in this information. The math doesn't lie.

At least with a gift card, there is no guesswork in trying to figure out the monetary value. It is what it is. While your consumption behaviors may change because of other factors, you will no longer be prompted to get the most expensive menu item and drink soda when all you wanted was a salad and water.

I personally think it is brilliant but why won't Disney do it? Because they make more money with the dining plans... hence we have come full circle on the dining plan value debacle... more $ in Disney's pocket, less $ in yours.

Business is business. If you think that Disney is trying to save you money by offering a dining plan, be my guest and use it and have fun toting home a suitcase full of Mickey Mouse head rice krispie treats for your kid's teacher. I'll save my $53 and buy food I actually want to eat instead of conforming to a gluttonous plan.

You're going to the extreme.

I wouldn't pay $53 for a $10 meal. That would be stupid. I would pay $53 for a $17 CS meal, a $35 TS meal, and a $3 snack. (This totals $55 before tax, which would be ~$58 after (rounded down)).

The plan makes sense for the union of two groups of people...
1 - Those who already plan to eat that way
2 - Those who are willing to do their homework

If you're not planning to eat that way, then no, it's not going to make sense. If you're not willing to do the homework, then again no, it's not going to work out for you. I don't know about you, but if I'm pouring $3000 into a vacation, I'm certainly going to research what I'm spending my money on. If you're not willing to do that, then that's fine, but don't expect to get the most of it.

I totally agree that the plans aren't charity. They make Disney money. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist. I've never said otherwise. The point is that they are not ripping everyone off and to say so is ignorant and hyperbole.

Havoc and I have gone back and forth on this, in a respectful manner. He understands where I'm coming from as I him. We both agree that it's entirely possible to a) save some money, and b) certain people can save the marketed value. We've proven this with numbers, numbers that are likely to skew in the direction of saving more money come 2012 (we used 2011 menu prices). As you said, the math doesn't lie.

I'll say it again, if you don't care enough to look into what you just spent thousands of dollars on, then why should I care that you didn't get to take advantage of it? It's all about being a responsible consumer, and that includes recognizing when something doesn't work for you as well as taking the most advantage you can out of something that does.

Now, I'm not against the GC idea. I haven't outright said that. It's a solid idea that makes sense financially for Disney to look into. It shouldn't replace the dining plan at all, but it's certainly a viable alternative.

All those examples are incorrect.
Texting --- if I wanted texting, it would have been an extra $5 per month, or .29 per text. Very clearly laid out in all my cell provider literature.
Cable tv-- price of the basic package is clearly laid out. The price of all add-ons is clearly laid out. If I want to add HBO, it is $16.99 per month. (remember, ddp is not "included" in a basic ddp package. It is an add-on, like adding HBO)
When buying my computer-- I go to the store, and each computer has a clearly marked price. If I want to add a printer, the printer prices are clearly marked. If I want to add a monitor, the prices are clearly marked. Again, the ddp is a printer -- it's an add-on. It's not a motherboard. I can't say, "I want that computer, but without the motherboard.". Yet I can get a Disney package without a dining plan.

It's not just unethical, Disney's hidden pricing would be blatantly illegal in some states. (I will assume Florida's consumer protection laws are less strict.)

It seems as if people are saying it is entirely natural and expected that Disney would hide the ddp price, but this is very very new. They only stopped listing the price on their website about a year ago.
Last year, at this time, when they were still selling the 2010 ddp, the website clearly stated, "add the ddp for under $42 per adult, per night."

So a very simple question. As they had never had any trouble listing the price before, Why starting with the 2011 pricing, did they refuse to list the price? What changed?

The answer is obvious and it has nothing to do with "package" pricing. When the ddp was a good deal for most people, they happily listed the price. As they raised the price to the point where it became a bad deal for most people, they started to hide the price, in the hope that people would book it out of habit or ignorance.

The thing is, you didn't say "name me a company that hides the price of an optional addon to a package". You said...

In fact, I can't think of another example of any product, where the seller refuses to disclose the price.

Why is Disney willing to tell you the price of the hotel, the tickets, the Mickey Mouse souvenir ears, the golf green fees, dinner at the Royal Table, but they won't tell you the price of the dining plans. You can defend this as normal business. But it's not like any other normal ethical business practice I have ever seen.

And that is what I responded on. All examples listed (barring differences in both Wireless and Cable providers) do just that.

The Disney packages are clearly priced. In big blue numbers on the screen (or whatever color the CMs and TAs get). You know going in that this package will cost you x amount of money. If you add the dining plan, it will then cost y amount of money. While they may not be outwardly advertising the cost of the dining plan, it's there to figure out. The price has never been truly, fully disclosed, at least since I've been around in mid-2009. I know, I've looked for it. That's how I found the DIS.

They did have some advertising last year, I'll grant you that. I don't remember the exact wording, but I agree it was there. It wasn't itemized with the package pricing though, it was just thrown out there as a marketing piece.

Again, they don't "hide" the pricing. They don't not tell you the final price and then just charge it anyway. When buying a package, they tell you the price (several times) before you decide to book or not. They they offer you ample time to change the booking free from any fees before the trip occurs. Of course, most likely the fee-less alterations are due to them hoping you'll upgrade, but that doesn't mean they don't let you downgrade without charging a fee (outside of their 45 day mark of course, which is also very visible). All they do is not tell you the individual itemized cost of the addon to the package, which can be easily deduced by math and is widely available elsewhere. (And, via a simple search on the Disney Mom's panel, which is actively endorsed by Disney, you can usually find out the current prices pretty quick.)

Maybe this is where I differ from a lot of people. I'm very cynical and generally don't like people as a whole. I'm also very much against the extremes that we see so prevalent everywhere today. I'd be just as staunch against someone who couldn't understand why everyone doesn't use a dining plan as I am against those that think it never works (just those that think it never works tend to be a bit more vocal ).

The legality, I don't know. I'd venture to guess that since the post-DDP prices are clearly visible that it absolves them. But, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just a Quality Assurance person for a software company. I personally don't see anything wrong with it, but I'm also not a stupid consumer.

The simple fact is. The dining plan can work, if you do your homework. If you don't want to do your homework, then fine, don't expect to save anything. It's not automatic, nor should it be. You don't even have to go to the extremes of dining choices (albeit, it is getting more difficult) to save money (or even the marketing numbers). It just requires some forethought and planning ahead of time, which is not a bad lesson to learn.

Then again, as an attorney, you do make a living off of people's lack of forethought and personal responsibility *.

*Note: This was intended as a joke. Do not take this seriously. It was a little sarcastic jab at the bulk of the "Personal Injury" lawyers that we all see on TV all the time and how they've come across as the typical attorney. I'm sure in Havoc's case, this is absolutely false, however, this disclaimer must be written as it's nearly impossible to discern tone from text. Even with the little winky face. It's also here so that he doesn't sue me for libel (or is it slander when it's written? I always get those two confused). And adding on to this disclaimer, that "sue me" part was also a joke, once again aimed at the atypical "Personal Injury" lawyers who are a scourge in the over litigious society we are living in. In truth, I understand they all have their place, and the good ones do more good than I could ever hope to do. It's always the bad apple that spoils the bunch.