.

[CampbellzSoup]

.

 

[KingLlama]

This should go well.

 

[HubbDave]

Ho topics!!!

Seriously, Ryno really shined in today's episode. I am a bit puzzled by Julie's view on a couple of these. Tough topics indeed.

My view on these are as follows:
Remove Cosby. He is vile
Keep the flag. The one removed is historically significant and in the correct context
Glad the man with the beard and turban came out on top
I don't care that DCL won a useless award again

I'm outa here!

 

[limabeanmom2003]

Off to listen right now!

 

[Kaigler]

The flag that was up there was one of the confederate flags designed to show white supremacy. I think it was a good move. They should hang the original though. The one people typically think about.

 

[HubbDave]

The "original" was never used as a national flag though. It was a battle flag

The one referenced in the show was the third national flag of the Confederacy. I don't know the display enough to know if there is information explaining it

The "Stars and Bars" was not the flag Julie referenced

 

[MikeTaylor]

The flags inside the American Adventure are there for historical purposes, they're above the escalator, and it's not a big deal whether they're there or not.

That being said, there aren't any Nazi flags in the Germany Pavilion.

 

[choirboy501]

The "original" was never used as a national flag though. It was a battle flag

The one referenced in the show was the third national flag of the Confederacy. I don't know the display enough to know if there is information explaining it

The "Stars and Bars" was not the flag Julie referenced

Correct. The flag that is center of controversy is the Battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (which is square. The Second Confederate Navy Jack is the same pattern, but is rectangular). It was used as the canton on the second and third Confederate national flags - the one removed at Epcot was the third. And "Stars and Bars" refers to the first Confederate national flag, which has three stripes, two red and one white, with a blue canton containing stars representing the Confederate states.

And I think Craig was trying to quote George Santayana: "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[Hunterr]

lolz, ho topics.

I find it weird that it took a horrific tragedy for America to notice the confederate flag again. Where was all this outrage and disgust over the flag before?
Julie's right. This is exactly what that terrorist wants.

While it's a part of history, it's a little off putting seeing it adorned on all the trucks down here in the south.
Not every white boy here is racist that throws that flag around, but they are too attached to a dumb flag. Ugh. It's a weird area.
I dont care if there is a piece of it represented in the American Pavillon. I just wish the American pavilion wasn't so basic and vanilla...

As for Cosby, I find his show timeless and still funny, but his reputation is tarnished forever now. Disney is in the right for removing the statue.

 

[wdwscout]

I had no problem with the Confederate flag hanging in the American Adventure as part of the "history of the flags of our country."

I definitely DID/DO have an issue with the Confederate Battle Flag being flown on any government property. The flag that was recently removed in South Carolina has NOT flown there since the Civil War out of history/pride of their past. That flag was raised on the SC Capitol building in 1961 as a PROTEST to desegregation. For that reason, I am very happy that the flag is no longer on government property.

 

[Tonyz]

How can anyone possibly believe that a symbol of racism and a rapist are controversial topics?

Leave the "real world" conversations for Pete.

 

[superme80]

The topics were handled very well today. Great show!

 

[Princess Jes]

The flags inside the American Adventure are there for historical purposes, they're above the escalator, and it's not a big deal whether they're there or not.

That being said, there aren't any Nazi flags in the Germany Pavilion.

The Nazi "flag" wasn't a national or state flag though was it?

I'm australian so therefore have no opinion of the flag debate, only that I agree that the racist pig who murdered those poor innocent people is getting what he wanted: publicity.

You cannot erase the past. We must learn from it. Together, we must push against the negative ties that people are giving this flag rather than removing it, effectively sweeping it under the rug/ignoring it.

And I tend to agree slightly with Craig and Kathy on the Bill Cosby thing.
He's vile and a pig if he has done all the things he's being accused of. However, does everything we ever achieve get wiped because of another action?
I agree, this is up there with murder, however, people are quick to get out the torches and pitchforks these days.

Again, I dont think what Bill Cosby did should be excused, but that doesn't mean what he achieved in the past should be forgotten.
Again, we should learn from the past.

 

[tjevans]

TL;DR: Cosby: I don't really care. Flag: Don't like the flag, but I think it was an appropriate historical/educational context in which it to be displayed. It shouldn't have been removed.

Hoo boy . . .

First, Crosby. I think it's possible to honor someone for achievements in one area even though they may be a totally disgusting person in all other respects. I mean, we have Columbus Day even though Columbus was a pretty disgusting individual.

Second, the flag. First, a disclaimer: I live in Mississippi, which has "the Confederate flag" (for convenience sake, that's what I'll call it as opposed to the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia) as the jack in the flag's design.

Flags are symbols. The thing about symbols--and all forms of communications really-- is that the meaning is assigned by the recipient of the communication; the meaning of the originator is irrelevant. How many of you have gotten in an argument with your s/o because you assigned a meaning to a statement that was different than what they meant? It's the same thing.

What I mean by saying that is we can have an argument over what the designers of that flag wanted it to stand for (although the evidence supports it being a symbol of racism and oppression), but their intent doesn't matter. It has been adopted--rightfully or wrongfully--as a symbol of hate. You're driving down some country road and you see a house with a rebel flag in the front yard. Do you think, "There's someone who is proud of his heritage?" No, you think the person there is a racist. And for that reason, I'm not in favor of the flag being displayed in a non-historical/non-educational context.

That said, to a good many people, especially teenage males (I know, because I used to be one) that flag also stands for rebellion against authority. And there's where we come to the problem with this particular symbol. When those people hear others telling them how the flag shouldn't be displayed, it feeds right into their belief of what the flag stands for. Resisting change, especially a popular change, is what they think the flag's about, it just reinforces their "affection" toward that symbol.

All of that said, I think removing that flag from that display is another case of Disney whitewashing (no pun intended) history; It's glossing over the bad rather than taking a critical look at it.

 

[Teleclashter]

How can anyone possibly believe that a symbol of racism and a rapist are controversial topics?

Leave the "real world" conversations for Pete.

You right. We two dumb too talk bad stuff.

 

[Tonyz]

You right. We two dumb too talk bad stuff.

...because he can control the conversation a little more. It went on too long and got a little repetitive. I can't remember the specifics, but there was something slightly "controversial" last year when Dustin was hosting, and he kept the conversation very short and moved on to other topics.

That is what I meant. Not knockin' your intelligence, dude.

 

[*NikkiBell*]

I'm going to take my moderator hat off here to chime in on the discussion.

He's vile and a pig if he has done all the things he's being accused of. However, does everything we ever achieve get wiped because of another action?

When it comes to Cosby's crime, absolutely 100% YES! Dozens of women, most of whom were young actresses during Cosby's prime, have bravely come forward to speak out against what happened to them. They were drugged, and they were raped. That is a violent crime and has caused them damage that they have had to endure to this very day and will until they die. It can never be erased. It will never go away. For that, he is owed no pardon of behavior.

Cosby had contact with his victims due to his career and its subsequent "power" in the industry. Most of the women, if not all, have stated that they were actresses and fans of his work; they went to meet with him under the guise of receiving coaching and lessons. The assaults then took place. Abuse of power? Just a bit. Excuse it because he was an actor? Absolutely not. In fact, I don't believe any career can excuse the fact that he destroyed these women's lives.

Because of the statutes of limitation in this country, something that seriously needs to be examined in terms of sexual assault, Cosby will never be charged and sentenced. This is even despite his admitting to police in 2005 that he purchased Quaaludes with the intent of drugging women and having sex with them. As a result, a serial rapist of over 40 years continues to walk the streets. I find this deplorable and a further insult to victims everywhere.

 

[Teleclashter]

...because he can control the conversation a little more. It went on too long and got a little repetitive. I can't remember the specifics, but there was something slightly "controversial" last year when Dustin was hosting, and he kept the conversation very short and moved on to other topics.

That is what I meant. Not knockin' your intelligence, dude.

JL was controlling the conversation and she did step in when she felt it was enough and moved on to the next topic. No matter what show is happening and who is the host, the person at the main chair is always controlling it. You're allowed to have the opinion that it went on too long and was repetitive, but Pete trusts JL to host when he's away and she did her job and did it well.

 

[Noel_Belle]

In regards to the flag, I have a lot to say, sorry in advance for the length:

I do understand the "we shouldn't censure history" argument. I understand Craig's position that the flag still belongs in museums. I think the issue, then, is whether you see the American pavilion at EPCOT as a museum or not. For me, I happen to agree with Marty Sklar and Walt Disney Imagineering: Disney is not a museum. It's a vacation destination that has built its empire on providing all families with a personalized, magical experience catered to them. It has made its brand a legacy in this way: just re-visit the recent "inclusiveness of Disney" episode of the podcast to see what I mean.

I'll say right away that I do love that EPCOT provides theme park attractions that have educational value (and actually, I think they need to re-focus their efforts in this regard). It's why it's my favorite Disney park. However, at the end of the day, the attractions at EPCOT are theme park attractions. I actually think that the American pavilion falls a little short precisely because of its attempt to be something it's not. I could go on about my issues with the pavilion, but basically I think it's too challenging to distill America's history into a thirty-ish minute theme park attraction, and it leads to some clunky, missed notes. (I'm thinking particularly of when Chief Joseph is given about two minutes to talk and then Mark Twain is basically like "yeah it's a real shame about that BUT ANYWAY SUFFRAGETTES THOMAS EDISON").

Museums are wonderful, and are important places to take children, precisely because they are equipped to put historical events and artifacts into a proper context. It's what they do best. The same can't, I don't believe, be said for Disney. It is a different animal entirely, and I don't know that it's fair to hold visitors to the same "you have to take the bad with the good" standards that you would for a museum. I think that if a black family could enter the American pavilion, a theme park attraction that they are visiting during their Disney family vacation, and see this flag as a source of trauma, or as something that makes them feel unwelcome or uncomfortable in the Happiest Place on Earth, then I think it's no question that it doesn't belong there.

Thanks for reading my two cents.

EDIT: I also want to add that I don't think it's appropriate to make personal attacks towards the contributors. I still love everyone on the show and wish them well.

 

[Tonyz]

JL was controlling the conversation and she did step in when she felt it was enough and moved on to the next topic. No matter what show is happening and who is the host, the person at the main chair is always controlling it. You're allowed to have the opinion that it went on too long and was repetitive, but Pete trusts JL to host when he's away and she did her job and did it well.

Yeah I don't want to knock JL, but she even mentioned in the beginning how nervous she was hosting a show with controversial topics. Pete's just a little more seasoned and experienced and (IMO) would have handled it a tad better. That's all I meant by it.

The rest of the show was fine. I think JL is a great host (hostess?).