Would a crackdown on point renting help availability?

keishashadow said:

jmho but I really don't think the availability issue is the professional renters...moreso the majority of people have wised up after getting burnt a few times and make it a priority to book ASAP, decreasing availability outside the start of the 7 month mark for popular bookings.

Click to expand...

I think that this is true. We own at OKW, BCV and VWL. If I even *think* that we may want to stay during peak times, I book before 7 months - usually fairly close to 11. The only place we want to stay during F&W is BCV, and we have other times we prefer other resorts.

keishashadow said:

ok, here's my personal experience & what I've taken away from it, others' mileage may vary:

Over the years I experienced minor issues securing BWV standard category @ after 11 months out (especially for F&W over Columbus day weekend), still often was able to still book after the 7 month window started there outright or via waitlist.

The situation became substantially worse once SSR & AKV (of which I am an owner also via a resale contract) brought a large # of members into the fold.

Note that this is not to be construed as a flame towards people who added on via resale nor whatever strategy a member elects to work their DVC membership with the permissible rules.

However, many members have stated here they didn't buy where they intended to stay nor have they actually visited @ their home resort, switching out routinely at 7 months window.

jmho but I really don't think the availability issue is the professional renters...moreso the majority of people have wised up after getting burnt a few times and make it a priority to book ASAP, decreasing availability outside the start of the 7 month mark for popular bookings.

Click to expand...

I agree. People have posted here that they were sold SSR with the line "buy here, you can stay anywhere you want". Then when they could not get BCV for October at 7 months and the waitlist did not come through, they were irate.

I guess I don't see how renting impacts availability. If a reservation has been made using points, it takes up a room....period. It doesn't really matter if those are my points that I've rented out or they are your points that you are using for yourself. The only difference is that all reservations are based on availability and it is first come, first served. I can use my points however I see fit, as long as I follow the rules. If I want to allow another family to experience DVC accommodations at a lower price than Disney charges (also via RENTING points, just brokered through CRO), then that's my prerogative. I could even book an extra night on my reservation just so that I can have the room until noon. I could book a room, check in, and stay with local friends if I wanted to, leaving my room vacant. These things would remove a room from available inventory but they are completely allowable...not the best use of points...but totally legitimate.
The bottom line is book early or be happy to take whatever is available when you are able to make your reservations and don't try to blame lack of availability on someone else's choices.

kristenrice said:

I guess I don't see how renting impacts availability. If a reservation has been made using points, it takes up a room....period. It doesn't really matter if those are my points that I've rented out or they are your points that you are using for yourself. The only difference is that all reservations are based on availability and it is first come, first served. I can use my points however I see fit, as long as I follow the rules. If I want to allow another family to experience DVC accommodations at a lower price than Disney charges (also via RENTING points, just brokered through CRO), then that's my prerogative. I could even book an extra night on my reservation just so that I can have the room until noon. I could book a room, check in, and stay with local friends if I wanted to, leaving my room vacant. These things would remove a room from available inventory but they are completely allowable...not the best use of points...but totally legitimate.
The bottom line is book early or be happy to take whatever is available when you are able to make your reservations and don't try to blame lack of availability on someone else's choices.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that renting points has a significant impact. I think that it could because it seems to me that more folks would be looking to rent those weekends. the actual member may or may not go that weekend. Totally agree that you are welcome to use your points as you see fit within the rules.

freediverdude said:

Is renting specifically stated somewhere as allowed, or is it something that isn't really mentioned, so people do it? In my paperwork I seem to remember some sort of language that mentioned family and friends usage, but nothing specifically about renting to strangers for profit. So I'm guessing Disney thinks it would be difficult to prohibit.

But regardless, my opinion is still that SSR is the problem, and puts a lot of pressure on the other resorts for reservations right at 7 months. I think it was a mistake to put a resort much larger than any of the others in a non-adjacent-to-a-theme-park location, and then sell that resort as being able to stay at any of the others instead.

Click to expand...

From Disney's side its made them a lot of money, reused a property that was not working for them. Would they have liked it to sell quicker, sure. I see VGF as a mistake, too small of a property, limited studios, and for those that own there, availability can be difficult.

freediverdude said:

Ok I see where DVCMike has quoted above that it apparently is expressly allowed. I really think they should have put some kind of limit on it though, like 2 or 3 per year. There's a lot of people out there who rent every year just to help pay for the points, and basically have a business, even though Disney won't stop that.

Click to expand...

I have not seen any correlation which would show that a large number of owners are running a business that is impacting my ability to book. FYI. In 16 years I have never rented my points out, so I am not trying to defend for my own gain

freediverdude said:

Yes, they're YOUR points, not someone else's. You purchased them for you to use, not for someone else to use. Renting should just be an incidental thing that happens once in a while, not a "we have to rent out x number of points every year to pay this much" type of thing.

Click to expand...

I can reasonably see how people with larger contracts who used the points all the time could have a need to rent vs. stay, if kids have grown or other things have changed in their life's. They invested their money, they can choose to use their contract as they see fit.

freediverdude said:

Please re-read my post. I never said that renting is prohibited. I'm saying the general purpose of purchasing DVC should not be to rent every year.

Click to expand...

Why would you think that there is a large percentage of people doing this that is impacting your ability to make reservations? If it is a small percentage it would be a blip on the radar

freediverdude said:

Could you please point out where in Disney's marketing it advertises DVC as a rental income property and not a personal timeshare?

Click to expand...

freediverdude said:

Marketing shows how the company wants the product to be used, and the general use of the product. I feel like I shouldn't even have to post this, but apparently I do.

Click to expand...

freediverdude said:

Yes, yes they do.

Click to expand...

freediverdude said:

They may want us to book those other options as it's profitable if we do, but regardless it's part of the marketing because it's part of the general use of the product as a personal vacation ownership.

Click to expand...

freediverdude said:

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Marketing is used to present what the product is, as well as instruction and subtle guidance. If you see a commercial of a family of owners entering their villa and enjoying personal use, and not understanding then that DVC is a personal timeshare product, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Click to expand...

I don't see why this matters since IMO the percentage would be very low and would have minimal impact. I am not advocating running a business with your personal points. The fact that you can't get a DVC reservation 4 months out should not surprise you. As the economy has rebounded, DVC ownership grows, usage changes. Disney World has done a good job of "Marketing" (there's that word again) of making Disney World a year round busy season. From the races, to Halloween, to Star War Weekends, to LGBT promotions, to Foreign visitors and large groups, to Disney Wide World of Sports creating a whole youth sports Marketing program, to every school band and chorus "having the honor" of preforming somewhere in the Kingdom.

freediverdude said:

Again, if you think Disney is presenting the people in the ads as renters, and doesn't use their own units for cash as marketing for ownership, then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't tell the difference between the main usage as presented in the ads and some fine print in the contract that is meant as an occasional alternative, again, I can't force common sense. I think I'm starting to deal with trolls here, so I will depart.

Click to expand...

EXCUSE ME Most of the people that have responded are longtime contributors, much more knowledgeable than me, and certainly more knowledgeable than you. I get it you don't like people renting their points. It is allowed, and you just don't like the answer. If you want to be able to stay at a timeshare anytime you want, buy an off-site property that is worth a 1/10th of what you purchased it for. Even those can be hard to get reservations for at times, and if they aren't hard to get go for it

MountainMouse said:

The point really is that this is an exploitable characteristic of how DVC is currently run. It's not technically allowable, but it's overlooked. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. What I don't know is does this impact availability. How many of those marathon weekends, or thanksgiving week, or December are booked with rented points? It's not a question I think anyone will be able to answer definitively but I would be interested in the opinions.

Click to expand...

Not quite correct rentiNg is allowed

I rent out a fair number of points, very few if any of the reservations have been because the renters wanted to go for a marathon. I also rent most of my points under the 7 month mark.

Renting works nice for me, helps pay for the MF.

Minniesgal said:

Not quite correct rentiNg is allowed

Click to expand...

Yea, we've already covered this. The debate mostly is to what extent Nd does it significantly impact availability.

Marathon weekend has always been a high DVC demand time. Just as high or even higher is the Wine & Dine half marathon weekend in November. Between mid-Jan and late Sep, which is otherwise DVC's low to moderate demand season, one of the highest demand times is the Princess half marathon weekend in February.

Particularly for those January and November races, nights can disappear at 8 a.m. 11 months out and even before for VGF studios, BLT standard view, BWV standard view, and AKV value (and club level).

Does that mean there are an inordinate amount of owner rentals at that time? Or put another way, does that mean there are a lot of individual DVC owners who rent by getting up in the morning to make reservations at 8 a.m. eastern even before 11 months out and then walking a reservation to assure getting the weekend nights? I seriously doubt renting owners are doing that. The rental brokers are also unlikely to be doing that including because they even acknowledge that they have trouble getting reservations for popular times or high demand resort categories because they lack owners of the resorts willing to rent at exactly 11 months out. It would seem the real conclusion is that the races are extremely popular times with a lot of DVC owners. Telling is that for that November race, even SSR studios can disappear before 7 months out for the Friday, one of the only two nights of the year (the other is NYE) where that has occurred. I never been under the impression that renters are flocking to stay at SSR.

This rental debate comes and goes periodically. Disney actually took steps to curb professional renters a number of years ago by (a) eliminating a rule that allowed multiple transfers per year, (b) creating a rule that an owner who makes more than 20 reservations per year is presumed to be in violation of the rule that prohibits engaging in renting for "commercial purposes"; and (c) prohibiting anyone from being an associate member on more than 4 member accounts. Those relieved issues where professional renters were booking large amounts of time during peak DVC demand times and then renting out the actual reservations already made (they were not creating the peak demand times but simply engaging in predatory renting practices during already established peak demand times like marathon weekend). Throughout all the prior debates (and this one) there has never been a real focus on the one party that actually has the best oppurtunity to engage in predatory renting if such renting actually occurs, which party has a huge number of points, both because it owns them and legally gets them via a huge number of transfers from other owners, and the rule that applies to that party is that it can reserve any room at any time as long as it follows the same 11 and 7 month rule applicable to all owners. That party is Disney and there is nothing in the official documents that prevents it from using all the points it owns, and gets from owners who trade out, to make rentals during peak demand times or for high demand room categories.

Whether the buyer or renter uses the points the points are used, I don't see renting as causing any more stress on the system than any other scenario. The points are in the market place to use and the system is built to support that. Unless the alternative is a bunch of points go unused (a significant number of points go unused), I can't imagine renting has much of an impact at all.

When I've rented points from someone (never rented my own out), it's always been less than 7 months out and we've always stayed at AKV or OKW. In January we are staying at the Poly on rented points, but still booked less than 7 months out.

If no renting was allowed and I could not use my points...Instead of letting them expire, I would give them to another family member or friend. Who would turn down free lodging in Disney?

At what point does Disney say...'These rooms appear to be going vacant. We should rent them for cash.'

Whether renting is allowed or not, it will not change the availability. It will change the value of the contract, however. How many people are willing buyers because they know they can rent unused points? People would think twice about purchasing if they thought they may not be able to use all their points.

drusba said:

Those relieved issues where professional renters were booking large amounts of time during peak DVC demand times and then renting out the actual reservations already made (they were not creating the peak demand times but simply engaging in predatory renting practices during already established peak demand times like marathon weekend).

Click to expand...

This is along the lines of the type of activity I thought could be impacting DVC availability. I think there is still opportunity to exploit the system, but I'm not sure if it's making a significant impact.

drusba said:

Throughout all the prior debates (and this one) there has never been a real focus on the one party that actually has the best oppurtunity to engage in predatory renting if such renting actually occurs, which party has a huge number of points, both because it owns them and legally gets them via a huge number of transfers from other owners, and the rule that applies to that party is that it can reserve any room at any time as long as it follows the same 11 and 7 month rule applicable to all owners. That party is Disney and there is nothing in the official documents that prevents it from using all the points it owns, and gets from owners who trade out, to make rentals during peak demand times or for high demand room categories.

Click to expand...

This is very likely a larger contributor to room availability than commercial (not Disney) renting of points.

Rental rates vs Disney direct rates have a secondary advantage even for members who choose never to rent out their points, they provide a floor for resale point costs.

MountainMouse said:

The typical DVC buyer wouldn't seem to me to also be a typical marathon runner.

Click to expand...

MountainMouse said:

Mainly because the typical person is not a marathon runner, why would the typical DVC owner be one.

Click to expand...

I am just so intensely bothered by this assumption I can't really think of much else.

What is a "marathon runner" to you? Meb and Mo? Heck, they might own DVC and they certainly would have an entourage with them. But that's not reality. 20 elites in a race are 20 people. The other 20K participants are all sorts of people.

And as Deb said later on, there are kid's races of all kinds on all the days of the weekend, there's the 5K (open to kids 5, I think, and up), there's the 10K, there's a Half, and then the Full. You have to get into town early enough to hit the expo to get your packet and shirt, so it's not just a one-day thing.

MountainMouse said:

It's not technically allowable, but it's overlooked.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you now know that this isn't true at all.

(Being paid for *transfers* is not allowed (transfers are allowed, but not receiving payment), but there's no way for them to police that.)

freediverdude said:

Could you please point out where in Disney's marketing it advertises DVC as a rental income property and not a personal timeshare?

Click to expand...

Have you seen their ads? Have you been on a cruise and seen the ads with all the stories of the extended family and friend groups who come in, etc etc. Do you think that ALL family units just give those away? We don't ask for payment when we invite family to stay with us, but many people do. That's renting, even if it's family. You're seeing what you want to see.

keishashadow said:

I was able to book a studio @ SSR over the wine & dine race approx a month ago btw, at less than 3 months out.

Click to expand...

Ooh lucky! I couldn't even change to OKW for W&D. Luckily our 1 bedroom at SSR sufficed, LOL. Booked 7 months out and was never able to find availability at any other place I wanted from that point on...

freediverdude said:

If you can't tell the difference between the main usage as presented in the ads and some fine print in the contract that is meant as an occasional alternative, again, I can't force common sense. I think I'm starting to deal with trolls here, so I will depart.

Click to expand...

Trolls, LOL.

Marketing doesn't tell us how they "expect" us to use it. Marketing makes us want to BUY it. Period. I see the videos of families crying about their wonderful trips, I see these warm moments...I want to buy. They don't show the extended family getting all passive aggressive as one group wants to go on Space Mtn and the other wants to do something else and no one is willing to split up (even though they agreed to split up as needed)...marketing doesn't show the differences in disciplining children and how that causes stress as you watch something that's not done in your family etc etc...marketing doesn't show those things because that doesn't make you want to have an extended family trip! Doesn't mean we're going to say "oh the video doesn't show this, Disney doesn't want us arguing, so let's stop now".

MountainMouse said:

my point in this post was to start discussion on would a point renting crackdown help availability, seems to be a very polarizing subject.

Click to expand...

Your thread started with thinking that DVC owners aren't participating in running events (and you've forgotten that one doesn't even have to RUN to participate in an event like that...a 16 minute mile isn't sprinting) and therefore owners MUST be renting to those runners. It's just flawed.

Rundisney events are ridiculously expensive (199 pre-added-fees for a HALF marathon...a normal half marathon is about $50), and are marketed to Disney fans. Disney fans tend to buy DVC. Non Disney fans aren't going to rundisney events unless dragged there by family/friends. They can run 4 Half marathons or 2 or 3 full marathons at home for the cost, without having to get to Disney to do it.

MountainMouse said:

The debate mostly is to what extent Nd does it significantly impact availability.

Click to expand...

There is utterly, absolutely, and totally NO way for us to know.


I know that January 2014 we stayed at two DVC properties for marathon weekend, as we participated in the 5K and I participated in the Half. I would have stayed DVC for this year's January race weekend except that we were out of points and didn't want to stay at WDW that trip. We were up at Universal except the night before my Half, when we rented a Little Mermaid room at AOA so I could take the bus to the start.

For Wine&Dine last year my best friend and I used my points at SSR. Finally booked at 11 months out (first time since our 2009 purchase!) at our home resort (first time!) to participate in Princess Half Marathon weekend and I am by NO means alonE on the Princess thread.

etc.

If you were to look at the various rundisney event threads in the Events/Competitions forum here you would see that MANY of us are using our owned points to stay at DVC at a variety of Disney races.

DVC Mike said:

If, in any 12-month period in which a DVC Member attempts to make more than 20 reservations but is unable to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all such reservations are for Personal Use and not for commercial purposes, all reservations in excess of the first 20 reservations shall be presumed to be the use of Vacation Accommodations for commercial purposes in violation of the Declaration and the Membership Agreement (the “Multiple Reservation Rule”).

Click to expand...

This policy looks a bit silly to me. I can rent 20 reservations and I'm fine. If I book 20 reservations for me and the 21st is a rental I breach the POS?

Regarding renting and availability, I think instead it helps availability at 11 and 7 months. I've rented just a few reservations, so probably I shouldn't make it a rule, but I always found people willing to book a room 3 or 4 months in advance. Since renting often comes with a no cancellation policy, committing your money 11 months in advance is a big risk.
If people are forced to sell because they cannot rent excess points anymore, the contracts would go to buyers who will use their points at 11 and 7 months.

BTW looking for a DVC room for a popular event 4 months in advance would never give good results, renting or not renting.

MountainMouse said:

This is along the lines of the type of activity I thought could be impacting DVC availability. I think there is still opportunity to exploit the system, but I'm not sure if it's making a significant impact.

Click to expand...

I would submit both that it isn't and that it's irrelevant to those that currently own at least from an ethical standpoint. It's only relevant in that this reality of how the system works may affect whether one wants to participate by buying in or continueing to own. By exploit I assume you mean to use it as designed to one's own advantage, something we all should be doing. To a degree we are all in competition with each other for high demand reservations. This is the benefit and curse of such points systems. Basically every point is sold as it it's the highest demand time and to a degree, highest demand resort, but not all points can be used in such a manner. Even OKW or SSR or VB buyers and thinking they will or may use them at times at higher demand resorts, even the most educated of resale buyers.

Every single buyer did so having either known or should have known that renting was expressly allowed. That knowledge, along with other info, should have generated a thought process that several potential issues could arrise. Those would include that some times and options would likely be difficult to obtain even at 11 months out and that it was likely they'd see something for rent from another member and/or Disney that they wanted. There are almost no situations where one can use the question of ethical and timeshares in the same sentence unless one is discounting it as in my earlier sentence. Basically if the system allows it it's ethical.

zavandor said:

This policy looks a bit silly to me. I can rent 20 reservations and I'm fine. If I book 20 reservations for me and the 21st is a rental I breach the POS?

Click to expand...

To a degree but if they have to have a definition, it's a reasonable one given the legal issues, state laws and POS. I doubt they'd even look closely at it if you booked 20 in your name and one rental. There are patterns where it's easy to get any idea of rental vs personal use.

bumbershoot said:

I am just so intensely bothered by this assumption I can't really think of much else.

What is a "marathon runner" to you? Meb and Mo? Heck, they might own DVC and they certainly would have an entourage with them. But that's not reality. 20 elites in a race are 20 people. The other 20K participants are all sorts of people.

And as Deb said later on, there are kid's races of all kinds on all the days of the weekend, there's the 5K (open to kids 5, I think, and up), there's the 10K, there's a Half, and then the Full. You have to get into town early enough to hit the expo to get your packet and shirt, so it's not just a one-day thing.

Click to expand...

A marathon runner to me is someone who runs 26.2 miles, simple as that, I think this is a tremendous achievement and I don't think it's a typical trait of DVC owners or the general population. I don't care if you run it in 3 hours or 8 hours, if you make it 26.2 then to me you're a marathon runner. I would also go further and add that I don't believe that the typical person is a competitive runner, meaning that the typical person (or DVC owner) does not run in organized events where registration, payment, and tracking are required.

MountainMouse said:

A marathon runner to me is someone who runs 26.2 miles, simple as that, I think this is a tremendous achievement and I don't think it's a typical trait of DVC owners or the general population. I don't care if you run it in 3 hours or 8 hours, if you make it 26.2 then to me you're a marathon runner. I would also go further and add that I don't believe that the typical person is a competitive runner, meaning that the typical person (or DVC owner) does not run in organized events where registration, payment, and tracking are required.

Click to expand...

You are missing the fact that some people who run don't run the marathon. They run the half (13.1) or a 10K (6.2) or a 5K (3.1). Or their kids do this. But there are lots of DVC runners of all types. Or they take the full 7+ hours to walk the marathon.

They want to run through the parks. They want their picture taken coming out of the castle or with a character along the way. And they want that Mickey or Donald or Goofy or Dopey medal. Meb and Mo don't look at running this way.

Deb & Bill said:

You are missing the fact that some people who run don't run the marathon. They run the half (13.1) or a 10K (6.2) or a 5K (3.1). Or their kids do this. But there are lots of DVC runners of all types. Or they take the full 7+ hours to walk the marathon.

They want to run through the parks. They want their picture taken coming out of the castle or with a character along the way. And they want that Mickey or Donald or Goofy or Dopey medal. Meb and Mo don't look at running this way.

Click to expand...

I don't think I missed the fact that all runners aren't marathon runners at all. Please reread the post that you quoted.