Would a crackdown on point renting help availability?

[tjkraz]

I would disagree, marketing is used to sell the product. I would submit that how DVD wants the product to be used is irrelevant and really mostly unknown.

Agree with that. Marketing is all about appealing to tastes of the target audience. When you market exclusively to Disney theme park fans, the audience is pretty narrow. But when you use RCI as a vehicle for marketing to fans of Aspen, Lake Tahoe, Myrtle Beach, NYC and more, suddenly the audience grows.

In the deep, dark recesses of DVC, they may have some ranking of how they would "prefer" points to be used. But the primary purpose of DVC's marketing is to sell points, not to direct the actions of point-owners.

 

[freediverdude]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Marketing is used to present what the product is, as well as instruction and subtle guidance. If you see a commercial of a family of owners entering their villa and enjoying personal use, and not understanding then that DVC is a personal timeshare product, then I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[HookdonWDW]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Marketing is used to present what the product is, as well as instruction and subtle guidance. If you see a commercial of a family of owners entering their villa and enjoying personal use, and not understanding then that DVC is a personal timeshare product, then I don't know what else to tell you.

That's flawed logic. Disney also rents DVC units to non-members. Under your logic, all of the people staying in DVC rooms should be DVC members. But they are not. Disney is the largest renter of DVC rooms.

Marketing puts a sexy spin on a product and makes us feel like we want and need it. It guides us towards what the seller wants us to see, and hides the flaws from the public eye. That is why DVC literature is required, by law to state that:

THIS PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL IS BEING USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF SOLICITING SALES OF TIMESHARE INTERESTS.

Not an offer where registration or other legal requirements for timeshare solicitation have not been met. Real estate interests must be purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. in order to have access to the full portfolio of destinations. Vacation Destinations offered through exchange opportunities require a fee and may be modified or withdrawn at any time without notice. All accommodations are subject to availability.

It's just a sales tool. Bells and whistles if you will. But all of the LEGAL details are in the contract and the POS and that is why they both state that they are not responsible for what is stated elsewhere. Just because a Marketer tells you something is a certain way, doesn't make it true...

 

[disneynutz]

Cracking down on point renting or reservation renting will not help availability.

Buying at your favorite resorts and booking at 11 months will!

Bill

 

[HookdonWDW]

Cracking down on point renting or reservation renting will not help availability.

Buying at your favorite resorts and booking at 11 months will!

Bill

Now THAT is good marketing!

 

[DebbieB]

Marketing puts a sexy spin on a product and makes us feel like we want and need it. It guides us towards what the seller wants us to see, and hides the flaws from the public eye. That is why DVC literature is required, by law to state that:
THIS PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL IS BEING USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF SOLICITING SALES OF TIMESHARE INTERESTS.

It's funny, I belong to a WDW facebook group and a couple of times people asked what DVC is. I posted it's a timeshare. People come back "it's not a timeshare, it's a vacation club". Then I point to the above. Timeshares can have a sleazy reputation so DVC calls it a club, but it's still a timeshare. Initial purchase + annual maintenance fees.

 

[Dean]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Marketing is used to present what the product is, as well as instruction and subtle guidance. If you see a commercial of a family of owners entering their villa and enjoying personal use, and not understanding then that DVC is a personal timeshare product, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I'd liken it to the false idea that DVD cares about resale prices. DVD could care less about resale prices per se, what they care about is that they sell retail as much as possible. In their perfect world they'd have buyers think they have good exit options when there really isn't any. Have you ever been to a non DVC timeshare sales presentation? While DVC's team is better than most, timeshare sales is the epitome of "you can tell their lying if their lips are moving". That's one of the reasons you sign that only the specific written information is applicable and not the commercial or any verbal representation. The marketing is to sell, plain and simple, they include a disclaimer to that effect with every instance, just as quoted above.

 

[Dean]

It's funny, I belong to a WDW facebook group and a couple of times people asked what DVC is. I posted it's a timeshare. People come back "it's not a timeshare, it's a vacation club". Then I point to the above. Timeshares can have a sleazy reputation so DVC calls it a club, but it's still a timeshare. Initial purchase + annual maintenance fees.

While it's been a while, we've seen the same thing here on DIS in the past. For some reason many seem to think DVC is different, it's not, it's just a nice timeshare no more and no less. It was very interesting to see many people turn from supporters to dissenters a few years ago with some of the changes and reallocations.

 

[freediverdude]

That's flawed logic. Disney also rents DVC units to non-members. Under your logic, all of the people staying in DVC rooms should be DVC members. But they are not. Disney is the largest renter of DVC rooms.

Marketing puts a sexy spin on a product and makes us feel like we want and need it. It guides us towards what the seller wants us to see, and hides the flaws from the public eye. That is why DVC literature is required, by law to state that:



It's just a sales tool. Bells and whistles if you will. But all of the LEGAL details are in the contract and the POS and that is why they both state that they are not responsible for what is stated elsewhere. Just because a Marketer tells you something is a certain way, doesn't make it true...

Again, if you think Disney is presenting the people in the ads as renters, and doesn't use their own units for cash as marketing for ownership, then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't tell the difference between the main usage as presented in the ads and some fine print in the contract that is meant as an occasional alternative, again, I can't force common sense. I think I'm starting to deal with trolls here, so I will depart.

 

[HookdonWDW]

Again, if you think Disney is presenting the people in the ads as renters, and doesn't use their own units for cash as marketing for ownership, then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't tell the difference between the main usage as presented in the ads and some fine print in the contract that is meant as an occasional alternative, again, I can't force common sense. I think I'm starting to deal with trolls here, so I will depart.

ROFL. Since my opinion seems to align with the overwhelming majority on this thread, I'm not worried that I don't get it or lack common sense. I'm not the one who implied that Marketers give you the real story. As for trolls most of the rest of us have been on the DIS since close to the beginning (although I confess to taking a break, and not being as active). I remember before the Boards existed as boards... I'm pretty sure that people (including Dean) can vouch that I am NOT a troll.

 

[MountainMouse]

not by choice have we been in WDW on race weekends. Often the races are scheduled around school holidays = less days to take kiddies out of school & at times have the 'holiday' off work.

curious, did you try to book your home resort @ 11 months out and still get shut out or are you just now looking at the 4 month mark?

I was able to book a studio @ SSR over the wine & dine race approx a month ago btw, at less than 3 months out.​

No, I didn't use the 11 month window and I didn't really expect to find anything. I'm also ok with the fact that there isn't availability that weekend, my point in this post was to start discussion on would a point renting crackdown help availability, seems to be a very polarizing subject.

 

[MountainMouse]

I think it can and has been answered definitively, that's not to say it won't change over time somewhat.

I don't think we can definitively say how many points used for heavy traffic weekends are rented points, we just don't have access to that data. I don't think anyone does, some could make better guesses than others...Disney could look at the names on reservations, rental companies could look at their numbers, but noone would have the complete definitive picture. That said, it appears that the prevailing opinion is that it would not impact availability. Could very well be correct.

 

[MountainMouse]

Why would you think that? I personally know quite a few DVC owners who have participated in Disney marathon events. What makes you think the demographic is so much different?

Mainly because the typical person is not a marathon runner, why would the typical DVC owner be one. People seem to know a lot of people who are runners and DVC owners but I doubt that it's typical within DVC. Also, I'm defining typical as "usual". So I'm confident a statement like "the typical DVC owner likes Mickey Mouse" but I'm not as confident in saying that the typical owner is a marathon runner.

 

[MountainMouse]

Purely hypothetically, if renting were limited or eliminated, heavy renters would sell their points.

Just on the side, I think that this would also adversely (for the seller) impact resale costs. The initial flood of contracts would bring prices down and the increased difficulty in renting (assuming still allowed just not commercially...ie, no more David's) would deter some potential buyers.

 

[Dean]

I don't think we can definitively say how many points used for heavy traffic weekends are rented points, we just don't have access to that data. I don't think anyone does, some could make better guesses than others...Disney could look at the names on reservations, rental companies could look at their numbers, but noone would have the complete definitive picture. That said, it appears that the prevailing opinion is that it would not impact availability. Could very well be correct.

My reference to a definitive answer was that renting is allowed. I'd suggest that it's irrelevant what the impact is because it's not something that can be eliminated. I believe any attempt at real control both puts them at risk legally since renting is expressly allowed and would affect members as a whole also. I doubt DVC knows the % that are members using, guests using, or private renters. The only definite % they'll have is what they are renting both to members internally and through CRO.

 

[davper]

The typical DVC buyer wouldn't seem to me to also be a typical marathon runner.

heavy renters

What are you trying to say? That we are all fat lazy slobs who only run for the buffets?

J/K

 

[davper]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Marketing is used to present what the product is, as well as instruction and subtle guidance. If you see a commercial of a family of owners entering their villa and enjoying personal use, and not understanding then that DVC is a personal timeshare product, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Marketing has a tendency to leave out certain details. Yes it is possible to use your points for a christmas reservation at Wilderness lodge at 30 days out but they don't tell you and will never tell you it is unlikely to happen.

At every company, Marketing must put lipstick on a pig so it can be sold to an ever shrinking market. I don't know about you, but I never buy a product based on it's packaging or advertisment. If I did, I would own every weight loss, wealth building, time saving product ever created.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Mainly because the typical person is not a marathon runner, why would the typical DVC owner be one. People seem to know a lot of people who are runners and DVC owners but I doubt that it's typical within DVC. Also, I'm defining typical as "usual". So I'm confident a statement like "the typical DVC owner likes Mickey Mouse" but I'm not as confident in saying that the typical owner is a marathon runner.

You don't have to run marathons to run at Disney. They offer 5Ks, 10Ks, Half marathons, Kids' races. Not everyone will run the full marathon or a combination of races. And like I said in post #2 on this thread, only 6% of members could very likely have a runner in the family. 6% isn't much.

 

[tjkraz]

Mainly because the typical person is not a marathon runner, why would the typical DVC owner be one. People seem to know a lot of people who are runners and DVC owners but I doubt that it's typical within DVC. Also, I'm defining typical as "usual". So I'm confident a statement like "the typical DVC owner likes Mickey Mouse" but I'm not as confident in saying that the typical owner is a marathon runner.

It isn't necessary for marathon participation to be "typical" or "usual" among DVC owners in order for occupancy to spike during that period.

Even without the marathon there would be SOME natural demand from owners wishing to visit those dates. The marathon only boosts demand. Also it's a very small window of time in the grand scheme of things. A 2-night visit over marathon weekend represents only 1/2% of all annual DVC availability. Mathematically, it only requires 1/2% of all DVC members wishing to book those nights in order to max out occupancy. Forget "typical" and "usual"...with around 200,000 member families and only 3500-4000 villas at WDW, marathon running can be a very niche interest and still fill all of the DVC rooms.

Just on the side, I think that this would also adversely (for the seller) impact resale costs. The initial flood of contracts would bring prices down and the increased difficulty in renting (assuming still allowed just not commercially...ie, no more David's) would deter some potential buyers.

Agree that resale prices would fall and that inability to rent would deter buyers.

But the price adjustments would eventually lead to transfers of the contracts. The owners wouldn't simply maintain high asking prices and eat the annual dues on points they cannot use or rent.

In the end, the contracts would change hands and new owners would be using the points. But the overall economics of DVC would suffer.

 

[keishashadow]

No, I didn't use the 11 month window and I didn't really expect to find anything. I'm also ok with the fact that there isn't availability that weekend, my point in this post was to start discussion on would a point renting crackdown help availability, seems to be a very polarizing subject.

ok, here's my personal experience & what I've taken away from it, others' mileage may vary:

Over the years I experienced minor issues securing BWV standard category @ after 11 months out (especially for F&W over Columbus day weekend), still often was able to still book after the 7 month window started there outright or via waitlist.

The situation became substantially worse once SSR & AKV (of which I am an owner also via a resale contract) brought a large # of members into the fold.

Note that this is not to be construed as a flame towards people who added on via resale nor whatever strategy a member elects to work their DVC membership with the permissible rules.

However, many members have stated here they didn't buy where they intended to stay nor have they actually visited @ their home resort, switching out routinely at 7 months window.

jmho but I really don't think the availability issue is the professional renters...moreso the majority of people have wised up after getting burnt a few times and make it a priority to book ASAP, decreasing availability outside the start of the 7 month mark for popular bookings.