Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[Madonna3]

I think they're going to have to make CBR have some kind of direct access in order to sell it. I know I'm not buying vacation points at a moderate regardless of the new amenities without it. I mean, I wasn't buying more points anyway, but I'm not even tempted to look at the price point without direct access.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think they're going to have to make CBR have some kind of direct access in order to sell it. I know I'm not buying vacation points at a moderate regardless of the new amenities without it. I mean, I wasn't buying more points anyway, but I'm not even tempted to look at the price point without direct access.

Agree...and I think you - we - are in the DVC majority here.

They would have to make concessions they don't want to make.

If there's no access (which would cost a fortune)...they cant price this like the DVC model.

So do they sell the points at half price?

Not happening

Or make the rooms 5 points a night? Again...not happening. Remember that the number of points in the point chart directly correlates to how many points they can sell. That's lost money again.

So where does this model work?

They're gonna try to sell this at full price and make rooms 15 points a night...they'll just say that it's a "deal" compared to the poly and whatever ridiculous rates they charge at wilderness lodge

I know...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I'm really fascinated by this...I don't see the angle unless it's just "market stupidity" by DVC or the consumer...maybe a little of both. They may already know that people will by this without question. I've seen dumber

But there's a lot of ideas here that don't work.

I saw "stormalong bay" suggested...no way in hell. That ship has sailed. Why put that kind of overhead in the budget when they can get away with the more "modest" Pools built since? No reason.

Rooftop lounge? That one is packed at contemporary for roughly 11 minutes per night...then more or less a ghost town the other 8 hours a night.

Not to mention food...Caribbean has nothing of note or anything comparable to any dvc except OKW and Saratoga...and that's still much better.

 

[Madonna3]

Agree...and I think you - we - are in the DVC majority here.

They would have to make concessions they don't want to make.

If there's no access (which would cost a fortune)...they cant price this like the DVC model.

So do they sell the points at half price?

Not happening

Or make the rooms 5 points a night? Again...not happening. Remember that the number of points in the point chart directly correlates to how many points they can sell. That's lost money again.

So where does this model work?

They're gonna try to sell this at full price and make rooms 15 points a night...they'll just say that it's a "deal" compared to the poly and whatever ridiculous rates they charge at wilderness lodge

I know...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I'm really fascinated by this...I don't see the angle unless it's just "market stupidity" by DVC or the consumer...maybe a little of both. They may already know that people will by this without question. I've seen dumber

But there's a lot of ideas here that don't work.

I saw "stormalong bay" suggested...no way in hell. That ship has sailed. Why put that kind of overhead in the budget when they can get away with the more "modest" Pools built since? No reason.

Rooftop lounge? That one is packed at contemporary for roughly 11 minutes per night...then more or less a ghost town the other 8 hours a night.

Not to mention food...Caribbean has nothing of note or anything comparable to any dvc except OKW and Saratoga...and that's still much better.

All of these points is really why I am scratching my head at the point of this. First of all, I don't even like CBR as it currently is, so unless there's something mind blowing in the pipeline I doubt I am going to like it after renovation. Perhaps this really has NOTHING to do with DVC and all of our speculation is for nothing and they're just trying to increase the moderate room pool.

 

[sachilles]

To take it a step further, why build there as opposed to some place else? There has to be other places for a DVC add-on property that make more sense than this one.
Why bother if you can't/won't do the direct access?

 

[Madonna3]

To take it a step further, why build there as opposed to some place else? There has to be other places for a DVC add-on property that make more sense than this one.
Why bother if you can't/won't do the direct access?

Exactly. This makes little sense to me right now, but we all agree (I think) Disney needs more on property rooms. This may just be the first effort toward expanding their moderates to add to their moderate pool of rooms.

 

[wilkeliza]

I'm just confused Saratoga and Old Key West have no direct access to a theme park but people still bought and continue to book there. Also Saratoga and Old Key West are often priced for cash bookings closer to moderates then deluxes. Why are those working perfectly fine but putting a DVC at CBR requires something as ridiculous as direct park access? Again AKL has no direct park access and it sold fine. They could just make this part of the land stand on its own 2 feet and not be apart of CBR any more or it could be like Port Orleans where there are 2 parts that feel very different so the CBR DVC can have deluxe amenities, food, and a great pool but still have access to the other things at CBR while the day guests wouldn't have reverse access like at BLT.

 

[sachilles]

So if it doesn't make sense as a DVC property, then does it make sense as a traditional lodging option? I know LOL, will say that the DVC model is the easy button for them.

Think this way, traditional properties have the high overhead, and DVC helps to eliminate that.
What also helps to eliminate that, is traditional hotel structures as opposed to sprawling resorts. A compact building, saves cost on many fronts especially labor.

 

[skier_pete]

If we're talking a theoretically walkway...it would have to be enclosed with climate and moving belts...but that makes its costly forever.

I know I suggested it, but if it's really < 1000 feet you probably could get away without a moving walkway. Moving walkway also makes issues with ADA. A simple walk-way would still allow.

And yes, it DOES mean maintenance forever, but as PP statet, they build a air conditioned walkway from BLT to the rest of the contemporary - and that didn't even HAVE to do that, could've easily just made people walk between buildings on the 1st floor. I'm not guaranteeing they do something like this, just saying the logic behind doing it is there. (Too make the resort more in line with the majority of DVC resorts.)

To take it a step further, why build there as opposed to some place else? There has to be other places for a DVC add-on property that make more sense than this one.
Why bother if you can't/won't do the direct access?

The benefit of putting it at an existing property is infrastructure of that property. But agree, why choose THIS over say Yacht Club or Beach Club expansion, or another Contemporary Tower, or a Poly Tower. It can't be "Oh, we are fine with making less money on DVC". There's got to be a plan in place to make it appealing. A pathway of some sort also has the added benefit of making CBR more appealing.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

All of these points is really why I am scratching my head at the point of this. First of all, I don't even like CBR as it currently is, so unless there's something mind blowing in the pipeline I doubt I am going to like it after renovation. Perhaps this really has NOTHING to do with DVC and all of our speculation is for nothing and they're just trying to increase the moderate room pool.

Honestly...that would make a lot more sense.

Maybe this is a "moderate suite" tower to get money based on the ridiculous rates they pull from AoA?

That doesn't follow the cheap operating model they've fallen in love with at dvc...but it makes more sense still.

Caribbean used to have the highest occupancy rates on property and a very loyal following...but it always had warts that don't really translate to dvc. My strong suspicion was that people convinced themselves that going there was a vacation both to the Caribbean and wdw. Subconsciously.

But that was along time ago and the pricing has really gone haywire. Caribbean doesn't hold up as well. It's the worst of the 4 moderate properties...Coronado is nicer, port and Dixie have the boat access and corrected the mistakes of the Caribbean design...I don't get this as a dvc.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I know I suggested it, but if it's really < 1000 feet you probably could get away without a moving walkway. Moving walkway also makes issues with ADA. A simple walk-way would still allow.

And yes, it DOES mean maintenance forever, but as PP statet, they build a air conditioned walkway from BLT to the rest of the contemporary - and that didn't even HAVE to do that, could've easily just made people walk between buildings on the 1st floor. I'm not guaranteeing they do something like this, just saying the logic behind doing it is there. (Too make the resort more in line with the majority of DVC resorts.)



The benefit of putting it at an existing property is infrastructure of that property. But agree, why choose THIS over say Yacht Club or Beach Club expansion, or another Contemporary Tower, or a Poly Tower. It can't be "Oh, we are fine with making less money on DVC". There's got to be a plan in place to make it appealing. A pathway of some sort also has the added benefit of making CBR more appealing.

Is that walkway to the contemporary air conditioned now? It was wide open the last time I was on it...admittedly a few years ago

 

[skier_pete]

I'm just confused Saratoga and Old Key West have no direct access to a theme park but people still bought and continue to book there. Also Saratoga and Old Key West are often priced for cash bookings closer to moderates then deluxes. Why are those working perfectly fine but putting a DVC at CBR requires something as ridiculous as direct park access? Again AKL has no direct park access and it sold fine. They could just make this part of the land stand on its own 2 feet and not be apart of CBR any more or it could be like Port Orleans where there are 2 parts that feel very different so the CBR DVC can have deluxe amenities, food, and a great pool but still have access to the other things at CBR while the day guests wouldn't have reverse access like at BLT.

Because it's a different era of pricing. OKW sold for $50 a point in the nineties, SSR was under $100 per point 10 years ago. DVC pricing has gone up extensively to the point that it isn't quite marketed the same way that it was back then. They can try and sell an OKW style resort at $180 per point, and maybe they will (this was Scenario 1 of the 3 Scenarios I listed). However, it's unlikely to sell well. They get away with raising the prices the way they did the last 8 years because they were selling BLT, the GF, and the Poly. I don't believe they will want to roll back prices - which they would almost have to do to sell a non-access resort.

 

[skier_pete]

Is that walkway to the contemporary air conditioned now? It was wide open the last time I was on it...admittedly a few years ago

I thought it was enclosed when we used it in October, but I couldn't be 100% sure now that you mentioned it.

 

[Madonna3]

I'm just confused Saratoga and Old Key West have no direct access to a theme park but people still bought and continue to book there. Also Saratoga and Old Key West are often priced for cash bookings closer to moderates then deluxes. Why are those working perfectly fine but putting a DVC at CBR requires something as ridiculous as direct park access? Again AKL has no direct park access and it sold fine. They could just make this part of the land stand on its own 2 feet and not be apart of CBR any more or it could be like Port Orleans where there are 2 parts that feel very different so the CBR DVC can have deluxe amenities, food, and a great pool but still have access to the other things at CBR while the day guests wouldn't have reverse access like at BLT.

Saratoga and OKW have direct access to Disney Springs via water transportation and walking routes.

AKL created a unique environment not at any other resort.

Even POR has direct access to Disney Springs via water

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm just confused Saratoga and Old Key West have no direct access to a theme park but people still bought and continue to book there. Also Saratoga and Old Key West are often priced for cash bookings closer to moderates then deluxes. Why are those working perfectly fine but putting a DVC at CBR requires something as ridiculous as direct park access? Again AKL has no direct park access and it sold fine. They could just make this part of the land stand on its own 2 feet and not be apart of CBR any more or it could be like Port Orleans where there are 2 parts that feel very different so the CBR DVC can have deluxe amenities, food, and a great pool but still have access to the other things at CBR while the day guests wouldn't have reverse access like at BLT.

They both have boat access to Downtown...and Saratoga is walking distance.

Not a park...but a large, useful guest area.

Things are diffeeent Now than when they built old key west and even Saratoga...

Mainly...dvc costs a HELL and a lot more and the investment is not as good of a deal. That's what disney always misses...because prices rise, doesn't mean the average person wants to throw a larger chunk for what is the same stuff at wdw. It doesn't change much...but they want more and more.

Old key west wouldn't sell at $172 a point...

Sold at $48 a point with free park hoppers though. No problems.

Caribbean doesn't hold water to Boardwalk or beach club...frankly not Saratoga. The lack of access is huge...the fact it was built for $44 a night isn't gonna change.

 

[Madonna3]

Is that walkway to the contemporary air conditioned now? It was wide open the last time I was on it...admittedly a few years ago

I thought it was still wide open and I was there in December. They added some plexiglass to cut back on the wind, but it was still open as far as I knew.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I thought it was enclosed when we used it in October, but I couldn't be 100% sure now that you mentioned it.

It's open because of the cross wind...I think it was engineered that way

 

[Madonna3]

It's open because of the cross wind...I think it was engineered that way

Yeah I thought so too, but you asked if it was AC cooled and I am stating that as far as I know, it is not and the only change is they have closed off some of the "windows" because of the intense wind.

Personally, I find that bridge really scary

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yeah I thought so too, but you asked if it was AC cooled and I am stating that as far as I know, it is not and the only change is they have closed off some of the "windows" because of the intense wind.

Personally, I find that bridge really scary

It's actually a terrible idea. They thought connecting the concourse would be cute...but would have been better built closer to the ground to cut the wind effect.

 

[Madonna3]

Honestly...that would make a lot more sense.

Maybe this is a "moderate suite" tower to get money based on the ridiculous rates they pull from AoA?

I'd buy that theory for a dollar.

 

[skier_pete]

Well, again, I'm just proposing the walkway - there's lots of options they would have. Without some sort of rapid/direct access they could definitely have sales issues. They may be arrogant enough to say it will sell regardless though. As I said earlier, I just don't see them selling an OKW/SSR/AKV at today's price points. Even AKV at least has super-close proximinity to DAK, and a beautiful resort with all the animals. What will a CBR DVC have to appeal to those people that have $20,000 - $50,000 to plop down for a vacation investment.