Norwegian Cruise Lines CEO: "Enough is Enough"

There are so many questions that need to be answered before allowing cruising to start again. This is not on the CDC, it's on the cruse lines and ports. The top two that come to mind:

1) If there is an outbreak on a ship, how do the passengers get back home? Who pays for it? What assurance is there that any port would take them? The federal government (i.e. our tax money) bore a large part of cost back in the spring and had to deal with all the coordination/diplomacy of getting people back to where they started. The cruise lines have to offer a solution for that and guarantee that it won't be a giant disaster. I have not seen anything suggesting they have this resolved.

2) Ports/Countries are not taking ships. You can want to cruise but if you can't get into ports, it's just not going to happen unless they relax regulations and cruises to nowhere are allowed. Castaway Cay is the Bahamas, so they would have to allow ships before DCL could even go there.

I don't see anything starting back up until those two major hurdles are cleared and neither of those are the fault of the CDC.
 
There are so many questions that need to be answered before allowing cruising to start again. This is not on the CDC, it's on the cruse lines and ports. The top two that come to mind:

1) If there is an outbreak on a ship, how do the passengers get back home? Who pays for it? What assurance is there that any port would take them? The federal government (i.e. our tax money) bore a large part of cost back in the spring and had to deal with all the coordination/diplomacy of getting people back to where they started. The cruise lines have to offer a solution for that and guarantee that it won't be a giant disaster. I have not seen anything suggesting they have this resolved.

2) Ports/Countries are not taking ships. You can want to cruise but if you can't get into ports, it's just not going to happen unless they relax regulations and cruises to nowhere are allowed. Castaway Cay is the Bahamas, so they would have to allow ships before DCL could even go there.

I don't see anything starting back up until those two major hurdles are cleared and neither of those are the fault of the CDC.

1) No difference in how they treat it on land. Isolate those that may be ill. When you port in the U.S., those that need to, go self quarantine, those that need to go to the doc, go to the doc. Same way millions of people who catch Covid on land handle it in the U.S.. Nowhere on earth are you immune to catching Covid, so cruise ships should be treated no differently as far as over reacting to every positive case.

2) Cruise line's private Islands or Cozumel for starters. More ports can be negotiated as we go along. I think the CLIA actually has a port and destination summit starting today, so maybe some things will come out of that.
 
Apologies for once again missing what a mess this thread has become since Sunday. My state is currently on fire (Oregon) and we've been dealing with various things but from what I can now see it got out of hand. I was a little relieved to see a thread where discussion of the CDC was on topic thinking we'd finally found an outlet for that but tempers are clearly more heated than I thought!

A very belated play nice and keep on track or I'll have to lock this thread.

Stay safe! The pictures we see of the entire west coast are terrifying. According to our local weather guys, the haze we've experienced the last couple of days (in the Pittsburgh area if you can believe that) is from the fires. If we can see the effects here on the other side of the country almost, I can't even imagine what you guys are experiencing. My niece lives in CA with her husband and twin babies. I worry about them every day.

Sometimes there are things in world more important than people sounding off and vying for attention on anonymous message boards. Take care and thank you for all that you (and all of the volunteer mods) do!!
 
2) Cruise line's private Islands or Cozumel for starters.

The private islands I'm aware of are in the Bahamas, which currently requires a negative result on a specific test and a 14 day quarantine for US Citizens. While they are, in theory, isolated from the larger cities like Freeport or Nassau; many have local employees that work the island. For that reason, the Bahamian government is not likely to make any exceptions for cruise ships.
 


1) No difference in how they treat it on land. Isolate those that may be ill. When you port in the U.S., those that need to, go self quarantine, those that need to go to the doc, go to the doc. Same way millions of people who catch Covid on land handle it in the U.S.. Nowhere on earth are you immune to catching Covid, so cruise ships should be treated no differently as far as over reacting to every positive case.

2) Cruise line's private Islands or Cozumel for starters. More ports can be negotiated as we go along. I think the CLIA actually has a port and destination summit starting today, so maybe some things will come out of that.
Except they don't isolate people on land or force people to self quarantine. I'm certainly not saying they should.
 
1) No difference in how they treat it on land. Isolate those that may be ill. When you port in the U.S., those that need to, go self quarantine, those that need to go to the doc, go to the doc. Same way millions of people who catch Covid on land handle it in the U.S.. Nowhere on earth are you immune to catching Covid, so cruise ships should be treated no differently as far as over reacting to every positive case.

2) Cruise line's private Islands or Cozumel for starters. More ports can be negotiated as we go along. I think the CLIA actually has a port and destination summit starting today, so maybe some things will come out of that.
1. While theoretically possible, there are serious issues to counter. On land, you don't have 3,000 people crammed into a space that they can't flee from. So, you have to wait till you port somewhere - by when the virus may have gone rampant. This was the reason why those Princess ships were kept at bay - no pun - until a 14-day quarantine was complete.

One solution might be to use rapid testing kits on the ship and isolate rightaway. You will still have asymptotic individuals slipping through the cracks and infecting others. Unlike airlines where contact just for a few hours helps them escape taking the blame, cruise lines will be front row and center to all that incineration.

Alternatively, work with the ports to secure a quarantine hotel nearby. I think MSC might have done something similar with Italian government help. Italy doesn't mind helping out because (A) its citizens find a vacation they want in their own country and (B) the ports and the struggling business nearby - all Italian - start to receive the much-needed tourism money from the wealthier parts of the population.

That's a tougher sell when the money is flowing to five different countries in the Caribbeans.

2. What's in it for the Bahamian government to allow porting at the private islands? Sure, you have a handful of workers employed at the islands, but that's just a drop in the bucket. Bahamas has allowed private cruise islands to exist primarily because the ships port simultaneously in Nassau or Freeport as well.

That said, we have seen how quickly the minds can change. Once cruising is set to resume, you will see a quick change in the rules too. Nassau and Freeport will tear into their government if they are made to sit out a cruising restart.
 
What's in it for the Bahamian government to allow porting at the private islands?

Millions of dollars a year per ship in just port fees, even when porting at just Castaway Cay. For a tourist dependent country with no tourism, that would be welcome income with minimal risk. Once ships get guidance from CDC and they can start planning operations, deals for ports will get done. Right now there’s no need to negotiate port deals until cruise lines know what the CDC is going to do. Even DCL’s announcement today mentioned the “uncertainty” of the CDC as one of the causes they are cancelling operations. The port of Galveston meeting on 09/01 also mentioned that DCL stated to them they couldn’t do anything until the CDC made their move. So I’m not worried about DCL finding ports, once given the go, port deals will get done.
 


Except they don't isolate people on land or force people to self quarantine. I'm certainly not saying they should.

Yes, very strange and misguided how Covid positive people on land are treated vs Covid positive people who caught it at sea. Millions in the U.S. test positive on land and nobody at their work is quarantined and they’re free to leave the doc’s office and go anywhere they want and infect whoever they want. One person tests positive at sea (Alaska UnCruise) and you’re treated like the bringer of death and you get front page news while being locked down like you’re carrying a terrorist bio weapon. Crazy difference. Makes no sense.
 
Yes, very strange and misguided how Covid positive people on land are treated vs Covid positive people who caught it at sea. Millions in the U.S. test positive on land and nobody at their work is quarantined and they’re free to leave the doc’s office and go anywhere they want and infect whoever they want. One person tests positive at sea (Alaska UnCruise) and you’re treated like the bringer of death and you get front page news while being locked down like you’re carrying a terrorist bio weapon. Crazy difference. Makes no sense.
It's not just Covid positive people. If you have a temp you can't get into WDW, but it doesn't mean you have Covid and they certainly aren't going to quarantine you. You could get into WDW with cold like symptoms, but what happens if you get the sniffles on a cruise? These are questions that need to be answered before I get on ship.
 
Millions of dollars a year per ship in just port fees, even when porting at just Castaway Cay. For a tourist dependent country with no tourism, that would be welcome income with minimal risk. Once ships get guidance from CDC and they can start planning operations, deals for ports will get done. Right now there’s no need to negotiate port deals until cruise lines know what the CDC is going to do. Even DCL’s announcement today mentioned the “uncertainty” of the CDC as one of the causes they are cancelling operations. The port of Galveston meeting on 09/01 also mentioned that DCL stated to them they couldn’t do anything until the CDC made their move. So I’m not worried about DCL finding ports, once given the go, port deals will get done.
Yes, typically Bahamas will negotiate a package deal where you will pay fees for docking anywhere in Bahamas, plus additional fees if docking in Nassau or Freeport. There is also a clause asking you to guarantee a minimum number of port calls annually in one of the two cities.

The numbers are interesting. Incremental port fees in Bahamas are just about $10-20pp, but the guest spend in Nassau or Freeport is ~$132pp. If you add in the crew spend per guest, the number goes up to ~$145pp. (Details here.) What's more, those port fees go towards taking care of the actual port operations with very few new dollars flowing into other industries.

So, while you can settle initially for such limited cruises, recognize that every guest coming over on a low-spend, CC-only cruise is the guest who isn't spending any new dollars and isn't visiting on a land vacation. You are still missing 90% of your tourism dollars.

I agree that DCL will be the last to make a move here. They always follow the leads of the others. And we know CDC isn't going to move an inch before the elections.
 
Yes, very strange and misguided how Covid positive people on land are treated vs Covid positive people who caught it at sea. Millions in the U.S. test positive on land and nobody at their work is quarantined and they’re free to leave the doc’s office and go anywhere they want and infect whoever they want. One person tests positive at sea (Alaska UnCruise) and you’re treated like the bringer of death and you get front page news while being locked down like you’re carrying a terrorist bio weapon. Crazy difference. Makes no sense.

Apparently it depends on the specific US jurisdiction ?

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...o-quarantine-after-covid-test-police/2270072/
Also, other non-US jurisdictions do have strict contact tracing and quarantine/self isolation requirements. This is an article about what happened to one man in Ontario, Canada who was a close contact of someone who tested positive. As a close contact, the man was required to self isolate for 14 days. He refused. A legal quarantine order was issued. It ultimately ended up before a tribunal. He lost.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...r-shows-challenges-of-crucial-contact-tracing
Here in Ottawa, currently, the contact tracers are reaching 88% of contacts of positive cases within 24 hours.

Depending on the province, people who test positive are required to self isolate for a minimum of 10-14 days [there are rules for when you can come out of self isolation, dependent on symptoms and/or testing, but the minimum length of time is 10-14 d]. Likewise, self isolation for close contacts of someone who is positive, which would include household members and workplace contacts and others who meet the definition of "close contact".


Taken into a cruising context, what would they define as "close contact" ? Obviously everyone in the stateroom of an infected person, but what about other confined, though larger, indoor spaces ?

e.g. a person tests positive who the day before attended an hour-long trivia contest in LoungeA. Is everyone who attended the trivia contest considered a "close contact" ? Yes, the tables were distanced, but it is a confined indoor space so aerosol will sit/move in the air... Similarly, the dining rooms... There are already some case studies showing spread in restaurants, and not just to your own table but to nearby ones [the restaurants were small enough that you then hit walls, so in the direction of spread not possible to know how far it "could" have gone].

Or do they just do as they did before and say "the whole ship" ? [and if that is the decision, *how* do you do it?]

These are the kinds of things I think where it gets complicated and messy and there are a lot of unknowns and "how much do you err on the side of caution".

SW
 
Apparently it depends on the specific US jurisdiction ?

Yes it does. Smaller jurisdictions are easier to contact trace and keep tabs on positive cases. The Florida keys are a smaller community and not really representative of Florida as a whole. There will always be "example" articles liked the one you provided that shows the couple being jailed but in reality that is far from the norm. My proof would be the millions of positive cases even without cruising. That article did address some of my point in that those who test positive are allowed to go home and then we usually know what happens. They are not locked down in quarantine and are treated different than those who test positive at sea. Just in my state alone, we have about the same population as your entire country, so we just do not have the manpower to do contact tracing and follow up's on positives, that would take hiring an additional workforce in the hundreds of thousands.

Or do they just do as they did before and say "the whole ship" ? [and if that is the decision, *how* do you do it?]

These are the kinds of things I think where it gets complicated and messy

It's not complicated, just treat those onboard as we've treated the multi-millions of positive cases on land who catch Covid from non-essential land based businesses. If you have 2k go on a 3 night DCL cruise, there is no need to quarantine the whole ship if a positive case pops up, especially with rapid tests that we have now that we didn't have during the beginning. In our country we have sent tens of millions of students into our public schools to be housed in the same buildings where they will eat, work and play together for the next 8 months. When we have multiple positive cases in our schools, we do not lockdown everyone inside the school and quarantine everyone like they do with cruise ships. You isolate the ill, treat those that need to be treated and test those that need to be tested. Not rocket science. Let's move on.
 
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Yes it does. Smaller jurisdictions are easier to contact trace and keep tabs on positive cases. The Florida keys are a smaller community and not really representative of Florida as a whole. There will always be "example" articles liked the one you provided that shows the couple being jailed but in reality that is far from the norm. My proof would be the millions of positive cases even without cruising. That article did address some of my point in that those who test positive are allowed to go home and then we usually know what happens. They are not locked down in quarantine and are treated different than those who test positive at sea. Just in my state alone, we have about the same population as your entire country, so we just do not have the manpower to do contact tracing and follow up's on positives, that would take hiring an additional workforce in the hundreds of thousands.

It's not complicated, just treat those onboard as we've treated the multi-millions of positive cases on land who catch Covid from non-essential land based businesses. If you have 2k go on a 3 night DCL cruise, there is no need to quarantine the whole ship if a positive case pops up, especially with rapid tests that we have now that we didn't have during the beginning. In our country we have sent tens of millions of students into our public schools to be housed in the same buildings where they will eat, work and play together for the next 8 months. When we have multiple positive cases in our schools, we do not lockdown everyone inside the school and quarantine everyone like they do with cruise ships. You isolate the ill, treat those that need to be treated and test those that need to be tested. Not rocket science. Let's move on.

Rules at sea have always been different than those on land. Regardless two wrongs still don't make a right. We've shown time and again that left to our own devices we can't be trusted to 'do the right thing' (in quotes because that means different things to different people) and self quarantine so the idea is, to me and many others, a joke. We would have been able to do contract tracing if we'd started early on, before cases got into the millions. Our millions are why we still have idle ships. It's not really a 'well we let it get terrible anyway so it doesn't matter anymore' choice. When you're floating in a tin can in tight quarters visiting other countries that trust us to be safe onboard... we better do 'the right thing'.

From what I have read in the news when positive cases appear in schools they may choose to lock down and isolate? School is certainly can be cancelled in person for X number of days (under the section titled "Some schools were forced to suddenly change plans")
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/14/us/schools-reopening-pandemic-lessons/index.html
Many schools haven't gone back - again, I'm in Oregon and none of my friend's kids have in person school. Even the kindergartners are on Zoom. It will be at least November before they go back. I feel like your argument about cherry picking cases to prove a point is universal. That is at the crux of this whole argument, ask ten different people, get ten different answers. That is why we have millions of cases, not everyone is doing the same thing. My state's numbers are much better than others but people are very angry at our governor for enforcing policies such as our schools not opening to maintain that, just as many here are angry at the CDC - NCL included.
 
The private islands I'm aware of are in the Bahamas, which currently requires a negative result on a specific test and a 14 day quarantine for US Citizens. While they are, in theory, isolated from the larger cities like Freeport or Nassau; many have local employees that work the island. For that reason, the Bahamian government is not likely to make any exceptions for cruise ships.

This is the easiest of the problems to solve. Employees and vendors who work the cruise line islands stay separated from the general public for a few months of a time (say 2-3 months). They get circulated back into the public with a 10 day quarantine (when you are done, you isolate for 10 days, then you can return to the general public while new people come in). This is essentially the same way that cruise ships themselves operate, so it's not like we (or the cruise lines) don't know how to do this. It's not even very complicated. It's a purely logistical problem and a surprisingly easy one at that.

The incentive for the government is port fees which I feel the ships would pay.

As for what to do with sick passengers, since the ship is only going to CC, and there is no way home from there, I think the solution is dead easy there too. A percentage of the ship is set aside for isolation. If they are sick, they are isolated and when the ship returns hope, they disembark. This is no different then if you catch COVID while at WDW.
 
This is the easiest of the problems to solve. Employees and vendors who work the cruise line islands stay separated from the general public for a few months of a time (say 2-3 months). They get circulated back into the public with a 10 day quarantine (when you are done, you isolate for 10 days, then you can return to the general public while new people come in). This is essentially the same way that cruise ships themselves operate, so it's not like we (or the cruise lines) don't know how to do this. It's not even very complicated. It's a purely logistical problem and a surprisingly easy one at that.

The incentive for the government is port fees which I feel the ships would pay.

As for what to do with sick passengers, since the ship is only going to CC, and there is no way home from there, I think the solution is dead easy there too. A percentage of the ship is set aside for isolation. If they are sick, they are isolated and when the ship returns hope, they disembark. This is no different then if you catch COVID while at WDW.

Or just no local vendors until it's safe again. There really isn't that many anyway. If DCL wants to pay them something anyway until this is over, I would be fine with them adding a few bucks to my tab to cover that cost if it helps get us cruising again. Someone mentioned a few posts back that the average cruisers spends approx. $132 in spending while in port at Nassau and they wouldn't get that money if we just ported at CC. So tack on $132 to my tab, DCL can donate that to the Bahamian Gov so that they can distribute to their people and let's get on with cruising. Done, another "problem" solved. Keep in mind this would all just be temporary until we are back to normal.

As far as where to put passengers who are suspected of being ill, you are correct that is also one of the reasons for reduced capacity. It creates extra non-used rooms so that there is somewhere for them to go. The Port of Galveston meeting on 09/01 mentioned that DCL told them they were aiming for a 70% capacity sailing. So that would leave 30% open which would be more than enough. Who knows though, the CDC may come back and say 50% capacity, we just don't know because they won't get off the fence and give any leadership, guidance, communication or even feedback to the cruise industry.
 
Rules at sea have always been different than those on land. Regardless two wrongs still don't make a right. We've shown time and again that left to our own devices we can't be trusted to 'do the right thing' (in quotes because that means different things to different people) and self quarantine so the idea is, to me and many others, a joke. We would have been able to do contract tracing if we'd started early on, before cases got into the millions. Our millions are why we still have idle ships. It's not really a 'well we let it get terrible anyway so it doesn't matter anymore' choice. When you're floating in a tin can in tight quarters visiting other countries that trust us to be safe onboard... we better do 'the right thing'.
This paragraph needs its own post. That's all. (Bold text is mine.)
 
Or just no local vendors until it's safe again. There really isn't that many anyway. If DCL wants to pay them something anyway until this is over, I would be fine with them adding a few bucks to my tab to cover that cost if it helps get us cruising again. Someone mentioned a few posts back that the average cruisers spends approx. $132 in spending while in port at Nassau and they wouldn't get that money if we just ported at CC. So tack on $132 to my tab, DCL can donate that to the Bahamian Gov so that they can distribute to their people and let's get on with cruising. Done, another "problem" solved. Keep in mind this would all just be temporary until we are back to normal.

As far as where to put passengers who are suspected of being ill, you are correct that is also one of the reasons for reduced capacity. It creates extra non-used rooms so that there is somewhere for them to go. The Port of Galveston meeting on 09/01 mentioned that DCL told them they were aiming for a 70% capacity sailing. So that would leave 30% open which would be more than enough. Who knows though, the CDC may come back and say 50% capacity, we just don't know because they won't get off the fence and give any leadership, guidance, communication or even feedback to the cruise industry.

I feel like there are more local people then you think that are involved in Castaway Cay. I could be incorrect I was once under the impression that the ship manned most of the island, but I was later told that there are actually a significant number of locals that do as well. However, do not take that as fact.

That said, I agree with you. I have NO problem with DCL charging me a premium docking fee for the Bahamas / Castaway Cay and giving that back to the local economy. Not only do I have no problem with it, I fully support and endorse it. $150 won't mean much to my cruising budget, but it goes a long way down there and with no tourism, the local business and people are hit HARD.

I would be SHOCKED if the Bahamian Government didn't leap at that opportunity, given they typically sell their own grandmothers for cash inflow over any objection of the local people.
 
The problem I have with the “how dare you contemplate putting CMs lives in danger” argument is that Covid risk is prettt much everywhere now. It is silly to say that you are saving the lives of CMs by keeping cruises shuttered. They still have to live in a world with a pandemic, and may well be getting sick and dying on land from Covid too—especially if they are being forced to turn to other jobs that have lower safety standards than Disney. It is not as though they make enough money to just sit at home, not working, in total isolation, ordering grocery delivery and takeout until cruising resumes.

SO.MUCH.THIS!
THANK YOU!

It's nice people want to speak out on behalf of crew, but they're not living our lives right now!

Right now, just to survive the costs of living back on land, I'm working two jobs (one that I absolutely hate that means my mental health has taken a nose dive for a start). I'm not one of the lucky few who have family that can put me up free of charge for months on end.

By day I work in a busy supermarket-extra, where thousands pass through our doors every day.
By night I work in one of the biggest warehouses in Europe, with hundreds of others, no masks, very little social distancing, and I have to catch a busy bus and a packed train to get there and back.
I probably pass more people in a day then I would in a month on a ship...

So right now, I would be safer on a ship even with precautions they had pre-covid.

I basically got told earlier in this thread I'm selfish to want to be back at work on a ship because of the possible impact to health workers right now, but I'm more likely to be a burden on them now (myself and via the others I have the potential to infect) than on a ship, especially with how the MSC and Costa cruises are doing!

It's my choice if I want to go back.
Many crew are vocal about not wanting to go back, that's their choice.
Crew wont be forced back if they chose not to go.
Guests wont be forced to cruise, just like no one is forcing people to go to WDW or bars, or restaurants or non-essential shops or resorts or gyms or salons....
If you dont want to cruise, cool, but dont pretend like you're a saviour for the crew!
 
SO.MUCH.THIS!
THANK YOU!

It's nice people want to speak out on behalf of crew, but they're not living our lives right now!

Right now, just to survive the costs of living back on land, I'm working two jobs (one that I absolutely hate that means my mental health has taken a nose dive for a start). I'm not one of the lucky few who have family that can put me up free of charge for months on end.

By day I work in a busy supermarket-extra, where thousands pass through our doors every day.
By night I work in one of the biggest warehouses in Europe, with hundreds of others, no masks, very little social distancing, and I have to catch a busy bus and a packed train to get there and back.
I probably pass more people in a day then I would in a month on a ship...

So right now, I would be safer on a ship even with precautions they had pre-covid.

I basically got told earlier in this thread I'm selfish to want to be back at work on a ship because of the possible impact to health workers right now, but I'm more likely to be a burden on them now (myself and via the others I have the potential to infect) than on a ship, especially with how the MSC and Costa cruises are doing!

It's my choice if I want to go back.
Many crew are vocal about not wanting to go back, that's their choice.
Crew wont be forced back if they chose not to go.
Guests wont be forced to cruise, just like no one is forcing people to go to WDW or bars, or restaurants or non-essential shops or resorts or gyms or salons....
If you dont want to cruise, cool, but dont pretend like you're a saviour for the crew!
I’m so sorry you were told that inappropriate response to you feelings and needs. Every one should be able to “let you, do you” So many people are in different places in life, what works for one, doesn’t work for another.
I hope you can find work soon on a ship and get the job you most enjoy. I hope you will always be safe on the ship.

I can’t cruise until I get a vaccine and my father can’t go until nearly everyone’s had a vaccine and it’s proven safe for transplant people. But that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be that limited subset of people who are not risking other individuals that should sail. My whole life I’ve always had two or more people 60 or older that I’m very close with. I’m 56 now but was close with my great grandparents and we live into our 90’s usually.

I hope I can meet you sometime on a ship, you sound like a person I would be talking about for years later “ Dana(my daughter) do you remember bbel? I always enjoyed talking to bbel such a nice person, hope we see bbel on our next cruise” I hope you will tell us when and on what ship you are finally reemployed. I know that you have worked Royal and Disney and I sail both now(soon I hope anyway)
 

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