HOA Boards Strike Again...

[SteveH]

@Mackenzie Click-Mickelson - I think our rule is moving every 72 hours, basically enough time for a weekend stay. Sadly we have one woman who got into it with her neighbor as they would park in front of her house, so she parks her broken down POS and moves it about once a week.

I agree on the break-in's too. We had a rash about a year ago, and those that were rifled though tried pushing the HOA to install these Flock Camera systems all over at an expense of something like $17,000!. That also brought out the privacy people big time. They did their song and dance at an HOA meeting but quickly learned the majority of us don't have an issue, as we park in the garage in the first place.

 

[Skywalker3]

When we moved here, we looked at SO many houses. Most were in neighborhoods with what we considered very restrictive HOAs. They varied a lot though. We purposely did not choose a house/neighborhood with an HOA. We didn't want restrictions on cars, what tree we could plant, what kind of fence to put up, color of house paint, etc. and especially the one about leaving the garage up.
But , I do regret that decision sometimes. Our neighborhood is very nice, but spread out, without a lot of kids, no sidewalk, etc. so the kids missed out growing up in one of those planned, densely populated neighborhoods, where all of their friends live, and they just walk to each other's houses. etc. The one where most friends live, seems to be very lax about cars on the street. Most of his friends have cars, and a sibling with a car, so that's 4 cars per household, not sure where they'd all park if some not out front, or on the street.
I have an inoperable car in my driveway right now, so I"m ok with that.

 

[sam_gordon]

Both. You have the freedom unless the person you are upsetting has money and resources to eliminate your freedoms.

Huh? If HOAs don't have power (your second statement), then they can't eliminate "freedoms". If they can eliminate freedoms, then they have power.

 

[hertamaniac]

I bought into a residential community with an HOA fee of about $150/year. It then dissolved to it not being legally formed which meant our HOA fees went to $0. We have no HOA fees or associated benefits (which is basically maintaining/cutting the grass for the retention areas).

But, in Florida, generally speaking, the HOA fees are now drastically affecting the list prices of homes (specifically condos). I just watched a review last night of the 10 most overvalued markets in Florida with the HOA fees being a driver towards creating lower demand. So, the owners/investors are now starting to dump their properties at 10, 20 and even up to 40% off list from a year ago according to this report. I'm not convinced there aren't other ancillary factors contributing to the recent price drops.

My town/city was listed #4 as the worst culprit of oversupply and overvalued properties. I can attest to that our county has allowed massive developers to come in and take huge tracts of farmland and horse farms and turned them into 2-3 story condos while not adding a robust infrastructure to our roads. It's maddening.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

turned them into 2-3 story condos while not adding a robust infrastructure to our roads. It's maddening.

That's something that at least in our county the cities are fairly strict on. They've turned down developers or told them they had to scale down due to infrastructure. That doesn't mean every citizen is happy with what has allowed passed if they feel it's too great of a density and they do show up to meetings to protest or vocalize but the cities generally keep the surrounding areas in terms of can the roads support it at a high priority. Sometimes they'll allow a developer to do their housing but then suggest a stop light instead of stop sign be added, or a round about be added.

 

[cabanafrau]

Both. You have the freedom unless the person you are upsetting has money and resources to eliminate your freedoms.

HOAs aren't mandatory. If you don't want to abide by HOA authority, don't buy a property governed by an HOA. It's very simple to keep all the freedoms your heart desires. For those who chose to enter into an HOA, they should have the freedom to do so as well, no matter if others disapprove.

 

[Genie+]

I guess he mistakenly thought he lived in America where we have freedom instead of having to kowtow to the local political commissar.

Being part of an HOA is a choice and comes with compromise. You lose certain liberties in exchange for the benefit of certain standards. A rule may sound silly but doesn’t make it ok to ignore. Either work it out with the others or abide.

 

[cabanafrau]

I bought into a residential community with an HOA fee of about $150/year. It then dissolved to it not being legally formed which meant our HOA fees went to $0. We have no HOA fees or associated benefits (which is basically maintaining/cutting the grass for the retention areas).

But, in Florida, generally speaking, the HOA fees are now drastically affecting the list prices of homes (specifically condos). I just watched a review last night of the 10 most overvalued markets in Florida with the HOA fees being a driver towards creating lower demand. So, the owners/investors are now starting to dump their properties at 10, 20 and even up to 40% off list from a year ago according to this report. I'm not convinced there aren't other ancillary factors contributing to the recent price drops.

My town/city was listed #4 as the worst culprit of oversupply and overvalued properties. I can attest to that our county has allowed massive developers to come in and take huge tracts of farmland and horse farms and turned them into 2-3 story condos while not adding a robust infrastructure to our roads. It's maddening.

Recently was talking to someone heavily involved in the wholesale mortgage business. Apparently within the last month or so there was another major change in the FL home insurance market, which has been widely known to be turbulent for many years now. I don't remember the particulars, but it scotched an enormous # of FL mortgages in the pipeline. At the very same timeframe a large lender for investment property loans pulled out of a large segment of the market, torching thousands of loans in that pipeline. Since FL is a major investment property market I'm sure that hit particularly hard as well. No doubt both prongs are contributing to the price drops you're seeing.

 

[HopperFan]

But, in Florida, generally speaking, the HOA fees are now drastically affecting the list prices of homes (specifically condos). I just watched a review last night of the 10 most overvalued markets in Florida with the HOA fees being a driver towards creating lower demand. So, the owners/investors are now starting to dump their properties at 10, 20 and even up to 40% off list from a year ago according to this report. I'm not convinced there aren't other ancillary factors contributing to the recent price drops.

I own a primary single family home (not in FL) and I own a condo in Florida.

There are other factors impacting Florida "home" sales and it is a even harder for some condos.

1) The State of Florida has failed their residents by not addressing the insurance problem. MANY folks, especially in houses, can not afford their insurance policies anymore. Insurance companies are leaving or gouging. If you have a mortgage you are required to have insurance. Some wealthier folks who can pay cash for their homes will risk "going bare" and just save money each year in case damage occurs. The folks who can no longer afford have to fire sale their homes to entice someone to buy them.

With our condo, power in numbers. The HOA is able to negotiate a reasonable policy for the overall property. We are responsible for the walls in. This year after 8 years with zero claims our insurance company dropped our policy. Fortunately we were able to use our overall property agent to negotiate a reasonable policy for us. BUT it wasn't easy as now they calculate in age of plumbing, AC etc. Some require upgrades of those things. Fortunately again we had upgraded. For others that is a major expense at once.

Many Florida properties who never were required to have FEMA insurance are now required to buy it. This will vary with property value. We are not required but we do buy it at $700 per year. It is important because many homeowners policies are not going to cover some damages of a storm.

2) The condos folks that are fleeing are mostly the high rises. The 40 year inspections have been proven to not be enough. After that building collapsed every building is being inspected and owners are being assessed huge fees to pay for repairs and get to code. So many of these were allowed to just get by for way too long. Many folks in these buildings can not afford these assessments. And to sell them they have to drop the price because the new owner will have to pay them. Some folks will even just walk and give them up rather than try to pay for these repairs. The state is now requiring much more from Board members including taking classes etc to be "certified" to be on a Board. Not a bad idea but it will also discourage some from getting involved. We are a townhome, no one above or under us. While our property will get an overall inspection we do not have the infrastructure issues and have seen no decline in sales for our community.

3) The negative of zero State Income Tax is they have to make it up elsewhere. Property taxes are out of control in Florida!!! Many folks simply can not afford the quickly rising property tax in addition to the insurance rates. It is one state you are likely better off renting. I have a condo with NO LAND and a home 3x the size of the condo with 2/3 of an acre. My Florida CONDO taxes are 46% more than my HOUSE & LAND taxes are! That is insane given what we get for it. In the 8 years we have owned our condo the taxes have gone up 68%!! And that doesn't even include the taxes on the land that our COA pays ... which WE pay through our monthly fee.

4) Florida tourism is down for many reasons and that impacts the "AirBNB" business. Sounds like many are trying to sell and get out of the FL business. They can't afford to carry these condos/homes if not rented the majority of the time. They are flooding the market.

In the end the only impact HOA/COA are having on growing listings is likely due to assessments for repairs. Then add real estate taxes and insurance rates. I think most HOA/COA are reasonable people and the complainers are the ones we see.

Being part of an HOA is a choice and comes with compromise. You lose certain liberties in exchange for the benefit of certain standards. A rule may sound silly but doesn’t make it ok to ignore. Either work it out with the others or abide.

ALL OF THIS ^ When you buy into a covenant community you agree to abide by the rules. If it is a concern you get a copy of those rules before you make an offer. When we bought our condo ~ which actually has TWO COAs (one for our village and one for the overall community) we asked for the covenants (rules) and financial documents.

If you don't want to be part of a community with rules, don't buy there. In our home either DH or I have been on the board for at least 16+ years. I'm still asked to approve some architectural things. It is a small community with no amenities but a front entrance to maintain. We have rules but we are not walking around with a notebook writing citations. BUT it is important to us that some be upheld. Sometimes you upset someone but we don't do anything unless it is an obvious disregard for the covenants. The goal is to maintain property values and keep a safe community.

 

[tvguy]

When in California the HOA we lived in had a simple rule, garages are for cars. Before you could park, overnight in the driveway or street, two vehicles had to be in the garage, then cars parked in the drive way and finally in the street. While it was a bit much, I can see the rational now. I have neighbors with tons of boxes in their garage and they get upset when their cars get broken into and expect the HOA to do something. Zero sympathy. Thankfully the City requires the vehicles to be operable, moved every 2 weeks and fully licensed, so we got the junkers out finally.

My rule, when we bought our house 41 years ago with a 2 car garage was that there would ALWAYS be two cars in the garage. And there always have been two cars in the garage, but for 38 of those years we had at least three cars. Sometimes five. Your city is very liberal allow cars to be in one place for 2 weeks. Here a car on the street has to be moved every 72 hours. So if we went away on vacation for a week, he had to make sure we did not leave a car on the street, or arrange for someone to move it every 72 hours. Fortunately, there are three on street parking spots on the street in front of my house so it used to be just a matter of moving the vehicle on the street from one spot to another.

 

[hertamaniac]

That's something that at least in our county the cities are fairly strict on. They've turned down developers or told them they had to scale down due to infrastructure. That doesn't mean every citizen is happy with what has allowed passed if they feel it's too great of a density and they do show up to meetings to protest or vocalize but the cities generally keep the surrounding areas in terms of can the roads support it at a high priority. Sometimes they'll allow a developer to do their housing but then suggest a stop light instead of stop sign be added, or a round about be added.

From my observations of nearly 20 years in central Florida, legacy farm/horse landowners that have inherited the property from their parents/grandparents are now not passing it down to their heirs. Mr. Developer comes knocking at the door with check-in-hand to make the families instant multi-millionaires and without the hassle(s) of trying to manage a farm/horse land. Some don't live in Florida and hired stable managers, etc. to do the daily operations. It's an investment vehicle in recurring revenue.

But, as that check stares them in the face, I'm confident it has them on edge of selling regardless of local impacts that they aren't subjected to. To be fair, there are some farm/horse owners that are steadfast on holding off the developers (Yellowstone anyone?). Their families are so deep rooted in the community that they often are armed with political clout. However, a check that keeps adding zeros to the end is luring for sure.

Apologies to OP for deviating from HOA discussion.

 

[Christine]

My rule, when we bought our house 41 years ago with a 2 car garage was that there would ALWAYS be two cars in the garage. And there always have been two cars in the garage, but for 38 of those years we had at least three cars. Sometimes five. Your city is very liberal allow cars to be in one place for 2 weeks. Here a car on the street has to be moved every 72 hours. So if we went away on vacation for a week, he had to make sure we did not leave a car on the street, or arrange for someone to move it every 72 hours. Fortunately, there are three on street parking spots on the street in front of my house so it used to be just a matter of moving the vehicle on the street from one spot to another.

TVGuy, is that because your streets are actually "streets" that get people outside your neighborhood to other areas? We don't have that rule in my neighborhood because the only ones using the streets are the residents. But I could see in more urban/developed areas where neighborhood streets also serve as main traveling areas for everyone.

 

[sam_gordon]

Interesting... the streets in our current neighborhood (no overnight street parking allowed) are 20' in width. The street at the house I grew up in (over night street parking allowed) are 25'. DW & my first home (overnight street parking allowed) has 25'. NOTE: measurements not exact, just using google maps.

That extra 5' can make a big difference.

 

[hertamaniac]

Recently was talking to someone heavily involved in the wholesale mortgage business. Apparently within the last month or so there was another major change in the FL home insurance market, which has been widely known to be turbulent for many years now. I don't remember the particulars, but it scotched an enormous # of FL mortgages in the pipeline. At the very same timeframe a large lender for investment property loans pulled out of a large segment of the market, torching thousands of loans in that pipeline. Since FL is a major investment property market I'm sure that hit particularly hard as well. No doubt both prongs are contributing to the price drops you're seeing.

A lot of that stems from fraudulent claims from roofers citing to the homeowner and insurance companies the property needs a new roof when it really didn't. The homeowner shells out the deductible while the roofers walk away with a hefty profit, rinse and repeat. Roofing companies were going up to the door of homeowners with the promise of a new roof almost, if not entirely, free. If the insurance company refused the claim, the roofer would sue the insurance company. Is it any wonder why the homeowner's insurance in Florida is nuts!

An insurance carrier often will drop a homeowner's policy if the roof isn't "newer". What is newer? I hear from friends/neighbors any roof >12 years old is considered high-risk and won't be covered. And water heaters that are over X years old and will need to be replaced or.....yep.....denial of a policy.

 

[tvguy]

TVGuy, is that because your streets are actually "streets" that get people outside your neighborhood to other areas? We don't have that rule in my neighborhood because the only ones using the streets are the residents. But I could see in more urban/developed areas where neighborhood streets also serve as main traveling areas for everyone.

The 72 hour law applies on all streets in the county. But my street specifically is a dead end cul de sac. And parking enforcement in the past has cited residents on my street for not moving a vehicle parked in front of their own house if it has not moved in 72 hours.

 

[cabanafrau]

A lot of that stems from fraudulent claims from roofers citing to the homeowner and insurance companies the property needs a new roof when it really didn't. The homeowner shells out the deductible while the roofers walk away with a hefty profit, rinse and repeat. Roofing companies were going up to the door of homeowners with the promise of a new roof almost, if not entirely, free. If the insurance company refused the claim, the roofer would sue the insurance company. Is it any wonder why the homeowner's insurance in Florida is nuts!

An insurance carrier often will drop a homeowner's policy if the roof isn't "newer". What is newer? I hear from friends/neighbors any roof >12 years old is considered high-risk and won't be covered. And water heaters that are over X years old and will need to be replaced or.....yep.....denial of a policy.

Your response finally triggered my memory of the details regarding the insurance issue. Apparently insurance companies have started to refuse new coverage on home purchases unless a property is 100-percent up to the latest building codes, 100-percent. Even homes that are a couple years old that were entirely up to code when built are being refused if any codes have been tweaked since they were built. Obviously homes built five, ten years ago struggle to pass muster, and forget it if the dwelling is older than that. Even heavily renovated properties won't meet absolutely every new standard. I guess thousands of loans collapsed over this, even those that had been approved and had closings scheduled. If I remember correctly the mortgage person I was talking with said that FL has four insurers left, including the state program.

 

[tvguy]

Your response finally triggered my memory of the details regarding the insurance issue. Apparently insurance companies have started to refuse new coverage on home purchases unless a property is 100-percent up to the latest building codes, 100-percent. Even homes that are a couple years old that were entirely up to code when built are being refused if any codes have been tweaked since they were built. Obviously homes built five, ten years ago struggle to pass muster, and forget it if the dwelling is older than that. Even heavily renovated properties won't meet absolutely every new standard. I guess thousands of loans collapsed over this, even those that had been approved and had closings scheduled. If I remember correctly the mortgage person I was talking with said that FL has four insurers left, including the state program.

OT but building codes can be down right crazy. The City Fire Department here refused to issue an Occupancy Permit due to tenant modifications on a building that did not meet city fire code. The tenant was......the State Fire Marshall....and the modifications were made to meet state fire code. Not sure how they resolved is.
I would be in trouble for sure with my house, built in 1979. We bought it in 1983 and the home inspector then noted then that it should have never passed final inspection because the crawl space under the house was 12 inches, not 18. And when I added it, one county permit inspector noted my addition had wood siding that was too close to dirt. I think there has to be 9 inches between wood siding and dirt. Of course making the addition legal would mean it didn't match the existing house siding which also did not have 9 inches between wood siding and dirt.

 

[cabanafrau]

OT but building codes can be down right crazy. The City Fire Department here refused to issue an Occupancy Permit due to tenant modifications on a building that did not meet city fire code. The tenant was......the State Fire Marshall....and the modifications were made to meet state fire code. Not sure how they resolved is.
I would be in trouble for sure with my house, built in 1979. We bought it in 1983 and the home inspector then noted then that it should have never passed final inspection because the crawl space under the house was 12 inches, not 18. And when I added it, one county permit inspector noted my addition had wood siding that was too close to dirt. I think there has to be 9 inches between wood siding and dirt. Of course making the addition legal would mean it didn't match the existing house siding which also did not have 9 inches between wood siding and dirt.

You are very lucky because renovations and additions are precisely when many people find themselves forced to bring formerly grandfathered in violations into compliance, which quite often isn't economically feasible.

 

[tvguy]

You are very lucky because renovations and additions are precisely when many people find themselves forced to bring formerly grandfathered in violations into compliance, which quite often isn't economically feasible.

Sometimes the building department and insurance companies isn't prepared for people who ARE willing to make properties up to current code. A friend works for a guy who owns several hundred apartment units. One of his buildings burned. He had the original plans, had them updated to current code and was ready to rebuild within 4 weeks. It took a couple of months for the building department to sign off on the plans, and another YEAR for his insurance to agree on the amount they would pay to rebuild. He had coverage that included paying for the changed made necessary by code changes. AND, he had business interruption coverage with the same insurance company, so while the insurance dragged it's feet on paying the claim, THEY were also paying the rent on the four damaged units until they were rebuilt.

 

[kymom99]

Wow, that is an amazingly low HOA fee. My daughter was looking at condos with HOAs, the the HOA fees put all the places she was looking at out of her price range. I think the lowest was $300 A MONTH, not a year, and one was $500. That was to pay for common area upkeep, lighting and the pool. There was one condo she looked at where the HOA diverted for 30 years the portion of the dues that was supposed to go into an escrow account to replace the roofs. Owners were being hit with a one time $15,000 immediate assessment. And over course of 30 years, how many individual people were on the HOA board and allowed that mistake to happen.

Condos are different.