Gambling Problem Solution?

[sk!mom]

Thank you all for the thinking material and links.

I don't want to enable her problem yet realize there are immediate long term consequences if certain aspects aren't dealt with ASAP. She emailed me a partial debt list that made my hair stand on end and caused me to cry (I don't do this much) when I got off the phone w/ her.

Her husband can't help but already knows some of the money issues. Last time out I didn't realise that gambling was the root of the problem and didn't discuss it with her husband. Won't make that mistake again. Also going to draw up a formal loan agreement w/ them. It'll be my decision as to whether it actually needs to be repaid. And yes she has to acknowledge how all this came to be by entering an addiction clinic/ program. I think her telling me what the underlying problem was is a good start in her development.

It seems clear to me that she’s unburdening on you because she knows that you have the money to bail her out. She isn’t seeking help from a source that can actually help with her problems- addiction counseling.

You say that her DH “can’t help” but that shouldn’t be your decision. She’s emailing you a list and hiding it from him. You’re really getting in the middle and should step back instead. Her DH needs to know exactly who and what she owes as it impacts his future.

It’s clear to most here, giving money is enabling and a short term fix not true help.

 

[morgan98]

OP, I don't mean to sound critical, but what do you mean that the husband can't help? You say that he knows a bit about the financial implications, but it is weird to say he can't help. Do you mean he cannot help financially or he cannot help her emotionally to fight the addiction? It sounds like there could also be relationships issues as is often the case when there is any sort of addiction, cheating, etc. where something is going on in a marriage that both parties are not aware of.

I understand you wanting to be supportive, but I agree giving her any more money is absolutely not the way to go. It is also nice of you to give up your trip, but that does sound a bit extreme. Unfortunately she needs to want to help herself before anything you can do will help.

***We have been dealing with a family member with an alcohol addiction and have been burned by the giving of money and even paying for rehab. Let me just say the best intentions of helping someone are wasted if that person does not want help and have not hit rock bottom. After considerable time and thousands of dollars, we have had to basically walk away.

 

[sk!mom]

I know that my responses will feel harsh to you so I want to assure you that I have been where you are. Not a gambling addiction but severely mishandled finances and then seeking “help” from us.

The first time many years ago, we actually cancelled a planned vacation because we felt “too guilty” to go off and have fun while someone we cared about was in crises. We bailed them out only to watch them stay on a continuous roller coaster for many years. Our relationship suffered when we wised up and refused the help they wanted (always more cash) and offered the help that we could give- advice and help with lifestyle changes that would bring permanent change. We just had to step back and we have been the bad guys for years.

Anyway, I feel great compassion for you. I know what it is to want to help so so much and also know how painful it is when you realize that you’re just enabling.

 

[smiths02]

My mom is friends with someone with a gambling problem. Anyhow, the woman had a large winning once and then blew it gambling more and then didn't pay taxes on the win. IRS after her. She got a reverse mortgage on her house and did not use that to pay the IRS. She then sold her house and did not use those proceeds to pay the IRS (she sold it before the IRS put a lien on it, I guess).

Anyhow, the point is that she has tapped into money sources several times and yet she still owes the IRS. I would not loan her money.

She needs treatment immediately and then her and her husband need to sit down with a good financial planner. I am guessing that you giving money will either prolong the gambling or prolong the lifestyle changes they need to make.

 

[Malyficent]

Last time out I didn't realise that gambling was the root of the problem and didn't discuss it with her husband. Won't make that mistake again. Also going to draw up a formal loan agreement w/ them. It'll be my decision as to whether it actually needs to be repaid. And yes she has to acknowledge how all this came to be by entering an addiction clinic/ program. I think her telling me what the underlying problem was is a good start in her development.

If material possessions can help her to find the answer to her mental/spiritual/psychic problem and make her whole AND if the giving causes me no harm ( Not altruistic; me and mine always come first) I'm OK with it. I want to be a friend in good and bad times. Which is not to say that tough love isn't a useful tool. Just don't think it's needed quite this moment.

Please do not do any of this! Before you get an inch more involved contact the Gamblers Anonymous group. If you can't find one - seek out AA - or better than that try Al-Anon or Gam-Anon. Al-Anon helped me understand my role in my mother's alcoholism. Saved me 15+ years of being sucked into someone else's drama and helped to put us in a place where we could have a limited relationship (a relationship I never thought was possible).

There are people in this thread with years of experience with various addictions. We are telling you from probably painful experience to pause, get some more information and reevaluate. I hope you can accept this advice in the genuine spirit of heartfelt advice we are offering it.

 

[wenrob]

I know that my responses will feel harsh to you so I want to assure you that I have been where you are. Not a gambling addiction but severely mishandled finances and then seeking “help” from us.

The first time many years ago, we actually cancelled a planned vacation because we felt “too guilty” to go off and have fun while someone we cared about was in crises. We bailed them out only to watch them stay on a continuous roller coaster for many years. Our relationship suffered when we wised up and refused the help they wanted (always more cash) and offered the help that we could give- advice and help with lifestyle changes that would bring permanent change. We just had to step back and we have been the bad guys for years.

Anyway, I feel great compassion for you. I know what it is to want to help so so much and also know how painful it is when you realize that you’re just enabling.

Essentially the same situation I’m dealing with. The person I mentioned in my original post is someone I would step in front of a bus for but I cannot, WILL NOT, give them money. Been there, done that and damn near went broke myself trying to “help.” Right now my name is being dragged through the mud in epic style because I’m so “heartless.” It cuts me to the quick but I know they have to hit that final bottom. Crazy thing has happened; no one has stepped in and they found a solution or at least a temporary one. I can only hope they’ll be on their way back up.

 

[Miffy]

OP, as many others have stated, please do not loan or give money to this person. And do not pay their bills for them. Yes, this sounds very harsh, but having lived with a gambler, I am all too familiar with how this goes. No matter how sincere the gambler sounds--or even is--about wanting to give up their addiction, the person actually has to completely fail, possibly several times, in order for them to do something about it. Even then, they may not be successful. But it's their addiction, their problem. Not yours.

I'm not being negative--I'm being forthright--and I understand that you care deeply about this person, but I'm just going to be blunt: she's using you. Maybe not in other areas of your friendship, but in the area of money, she's using and manipulating you.

This is something that gamblers are experts at. In fact, I think most all addicts--for addictions that require money--are experts at this game. Showing remorse--and they may even feel it and mean it--begging for help, showing physical proof of their difficulties (like their bills, their bank statements, etc.) so you can see just how bad things are. Then you help them out--just this once or just this one last time and never again or whatever--and a month, 6 months, or 2 years later they're back where they were when they asked for your help or, more likely, way worse off.

If you want to be a real friend, do not provide money. Money is actually the opposite of what your friend needs. She needs help to help her conquer this addiction. Whether or not she will accept that help and benefit from it is up to her.

BTW, the person I lived with who had a gambling addiction, afaik, never got over it. Gambling, unlike an addiction like smoking, for example, has a sick twist to it--that next great win could be just around the corner and that would solve all their problems. If they get, say, $10,000 to help them get out of debt, they'll use the money for a sure thing, since then they'll have $100,000 and no problems at all. (Although the gambler, if they did indeed win, would then go on to promptly lose that $100,000.) No smoker, no matter how hard it is for them to quit, thinks that the next cigarette is going to benefit their health and thereby fix their problem.

Please don't help out your friend with money. Help her out with your love and emotional support--if you can handle that (and, believe me, it can be draining) but never with money.

 

[TeresaBelle]

Thank you all for the thinking material and links.

I don't want to enable her problem yet realize there are immediate long term consequences if certain aspects aren't dealt with ASAP. She emailed me a partial debt list that made my hair stand on end and caused me to cry (I don't do this much) when I got off the phone w/ her.

Her husband can't help but already knows some of the money issues. Last time out I didn't realise that gambling was the root of the problem and didn't discuss it with her husband. Won't make that mistake again. Also going to draw up a formal loan agreement w/ them. It'll be my decision as to whether it actually needs to be repaid. And yes she has to acknowledge how all this came to be by entering an addiction clinic/ program. I think her telling me what the underlying problem was is a good start in her development.

Don't worry about me missing the trip as being retired has it's pluses. I'm only out one part of my plane ride and all the other components are still being used by the man and DGD.

If material possessions can help her to find the answer to her mental/spiritual/psychic problem and make her whole AND if the giving causes me no harm ( Not altruistic; me and mine always come first) I'm OK with it. I want to be a friend in good and bad times. Which is not to say that tough love isn't a useful tool. Just don't think it's needed quite this moment.

Again, thank you for helping me to decide what to do.

To the bolded. This is her rock bottom and she needs to hit it. You helping her, is not helping her. I'm sorry.

 

[cinnaminny]

No advice, as its all been said...but I am sorry you're going through this. It is really distressing to watch someone go through something like this. Especially that feeling that if they just listened to you, that you could easily bail them out and they could happily move to recovery. I wish it was that easy.

 

[Lynne M]

You're a generous friend, and I know you mean well, but I think there's some overstepping going on here.

There's a reason she went to you with this, and not to her husband. She thinks you'll bail her out (again) and help her hide the truth from him. But it's his financial stability and his marriage and his wife's mental health that's at stake, and it's his place to be making these choices and decisions with her. It seems to me that you're driving all the decision-making.

If it were me, I would first insist that she tell her husband everything that she told you. He has to know the full truth of the financial situation, especially. I would then say that if they wanted to discuss a loan, I would meet with them together.

 

[barkley]

Also going to draw up a formal loan agreement w/ them. It'll be my decision as to whether it actually needs to be repaid.

in reality-it is entirely THEIR decision if it's repaid or not, and from the sounds of it they (or at least she) doesn't have a good history of repayment since she's looking to you a second time to repay the 'loans' (be it a mortgage, rent, credit cards or utilities-all are forms of being given something with the obligation of repayment) she's already chosen not to pay in favor of gambling.

even if they sign a promissory note-a bankruptcy (not at all unusual in these situations) could entirely wipe it out.

also-just as a head's up, if her gambling involves casinos and she offers to do the paperwork for a self imposed ban at the casino it may mean nothing. in some states all it takes to remove a ban is to request it, and at the casino my family member works for they have staff 24/7 that process the removals immediately upon request. family member says it's like clockwork-person brings in family/friends and makes a big remorseful show of doing the voluntary ban, stays out of the casino for a period of time then there's a call asking how to remove it and they show up within the hour. sometime later there's a frantic call from someone wanting the person paged (or trying to get the casino to freeze their credit or debit card which they won't-they refer them to the issuer) and then within another day or so they are back requesting a new ban. over and over and over............

 

[Cindy's Mom]

OP - I've be very careful of this friend. She wants money - she doesn't want help. If she wanted help, she'd tell her husband. Even if you can afford to lose, I wouldn't give her a penny. If shes in danger of losing the house and your inclined to help, tell the DH and make a payment or two to the bank. I

 

[lovemygoofy]

Thank you all for the thinking material and links.

I don't want to enable her problem yet realize there are immediate long term consequences if certain aspects aren't dealt with ASAP. She emailed me a partial debt list that made my hair stand on end and caused me to cry (I don't do this much) when I got off the phone w/ her.

Her husband can't help but already knows some of the money issues. Last time out I didn't realise that gambling was the root of the problem and didn't discuss it with her husband. Won't make that mistake again. Also going to draw up a formal loan agreement w/ them. It'll be my decision as to whether it actually needs to be repaid. And yes she has to acknowledge how all this came to be by entering an addiction clinic/ program. I think her telling me what the underlying problem was is a good start in her development.

Don't worry about me missing the trip as being retired has it's pluses. I'm only out one part of my plane ride and all the other components are still being used by the man and DGD.

If material possessions can help her to find the answer to her mental/spiritual/psychic problem and make her whole AND if the giving causes me no harm ( Not altruistic; me and mine always come first) I'm OK with it. I want to be a friend in good and bad times. Which is not to say that tough love isn't a useful tool. Just don't think it's needed quite this moment.

Again, thank you for helping me to decide what to do.

I get that you are going to do what you want to do but you are not helping in the long game with your friend. I promise you 1000% you do not know how bad this gambling problem is and you don't know the full damage that has been done. You have to let the damage and fall out happen. Get out of her marriage first and foremost. She HAS to be 100% honest with her husband. This is his life too and he deserves to know the **** show he is in right now.

You know you are enabling her and know material possessions is not the answer. This is not a child with a skin knee and getting ice cream cone to make it better. This is a mental health issue with major fall out. You can love someone while they are going through it but you have to back away and let the better go through it.

 

[barkley]

If shes in danger of losing the house and your inclined to help, tell the DH and make a payment or two to the bank

that can be a waste of money depending on the situation. if they are behind in paying then the lender could take any monies sent and just apply them to the late fees already accumulated which won't avert foreclosure/being put out. if they live in a rental and owe back rent the landlord may take the money but only as payment for the amounts in arrerage/late fees b/c they may be in the eviction process and don't want to continue with the non payers as tenants (we encountered this w/a substance addicted family member who several of us wanted to keep from moving in w/another elderly family member when he claimed he had a job loss and couldn't afford rent anymore. landlord was honest with us when we contacted him to pay the on-going rent and said the person hadn't paid in months and it wouldn't keep them in b/c he would just apply it to back rent and late charges).

 

[DLgal]

OP, if your friend was addicted to drugs, would you give her more drugs or buy them for her? By giving her ANY money, you are essentially doing just that. You are feeding the addiction.

You say there will be very real financial consequences if you don't help. Well, let her feel those consequences. If she doesn't, she won't think her situation is as bad as it is.

Support her emotionally, but absolutely STOP GIVING HER MONEY!

By enabling this addiction, you are part of the problem too.

 

[Floridaman999]

Be careful here. You could very well end up enabling her more and more without even realizing you are doing it.

 

[fly girl]

OP, you sound like a very genuine person. You abandoned your vacation to help a friend. That’s above and beyond.

But...

You’re getting played. She knows you’re a good soul and she’s using you. Please don’t loan her money. Not one person on this thread agrees with you loaning her money, step back and try to see what we see. Her immediate need for funds makes you think with your heart, not your head. She manipulated that.

Let her fall on her own! You have distance yourself, or she’s going to suck the life out of you.

Go get on a flight and go on vacation. This isn’t your problem to solve. At this point, you’re wasting your time which is so unfair to you. I hope I’m not coming off harsh, I just feel bad that you’ve been put in this spot that I think you should have never been placed in.

 

[Cindy's Mom]

OP, you sound like a very genuine person. You abandoned your vacation to help a friend. That’s above and beyond.

But...

You’re getting played. She knows you’re a good soul and she’s using you. Please don’t loan her money. Not one person on this thread agrees with you loaning her money, step back and try to see what we see. Her immediate need for funds makes you think with your heart, not your head. She manipulated that.

Let her fall on her own! You have distance yourself, or she’s going to suck the life out of you.

Go get on a flight and go on vacation. This isn’t your problem to solve. At this point, you’re wasting your time which is so unfair to you. I hope I’m not coming off harsh, I just feel bad that you’ve been put in this spot that I think you should have never been placed in.

THIS IS EVERYTHING! I didn't have the nerve to say all this, I'm glad you did and I HOPE the OP really lets it sink in.

 

[smiths02]

Thank you all for the thinking material and links.

I don't want to enable her problem yet realize there are immediate long term consequences if certain aspects aren't dealt with ASAP. She emailed me a partial debt list that made my hair stand on end and caused me to cry (I don't do this much) when I got off the phone w/ her.

Her husband can't help but already knows some of the money issues. Last time out I didn't realise that gambling was the root of the problem and didn't discuss it with her husband. Won't make that mistake again. Also going to draw up a formal loan agreement w/ them. It'll be my decision as to whether it actually needs to be repaid. And yes she has to acknowledge how all this came to be by entering an addiction clinic/ program. I think her telling me what the underlying problem was is a good start in her development.

Don't worry about me missing the trip as being retired has it's pluses. I'm only out one part of my plane ride and all the other components are still being used by the man and DGD.

If material possessions can help her to find the answer to her mental/spiritual/psychic problem and make her whole AND if the giving causes me no harm ( Not altruistic; me and mine always come first) I'm OK with it. I want to be a friend in good and bad times. Which is not to say that tough love isn't a useful tool. Just don't think it's needed quite this moment.

Again, thank you for helping me to decide what to do.

As someone else stated, it isn't your decision really if it is paid back. You won't really be able to compel her to pay you back. You can't get blood from a stone.

As we've all pointed out, giving money is enabling and hurting.

Something else that struck me is that even if addiction were not the culprit, if it was bad luck or job loss or bad investments, (and it is, which totally changes things), the couple cannot borrow themselves to financial security. That just doesn't work from a financial planning angle either. If the debts are that bad, their lifestyle needs to change. They may very well need to lose their home in favor of something more modest, file bankruptcy, sell belongings, etc.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

How does YOUR husband feel about loaning them money?