DVC plans to target commercial renters

[lowlight]

There are only 43 instances of the word ‘rent’, and they all happen before 721.14

The first mention happens in 721.05, the last mention is in 721.13, and the all occur within Part 1

721.14 through 721.98 do not ever mention the word rent

There is no mention of the word rent in Part II, Part III or Part IV

Yeah, maybe there is somewhere else Florida Law covers the right to rent your timeshare? This is not it.

The only time profit is mentioned is as part of ‘non-profit’

‘Personal property timeshare plan’ is mentioned 39 times

I did not read the entire 60,000+ words though

View attachment 925209

Is it possible it's covered under the statutes governing "vacation rentals" because it's a deeded property interest? 509.032(7) restricts laws from prohibiting vacation rentals.

 

[nalababybear]

I tend to agree. For several weeks the original post and my quoting post have sat unanswered. As have numerous prior requests for a citation in prior threads. It's one of the first lines of defense raised by advocates of renting, yet literally none of them respond when the general question is raised regarding WHERE in the Florida Statutes the explicit (or even implicit) right to rent out your timeshare is granted. You'd think it would be bookmarked by now.

I too have only ever found references in the Statutes that provide deference to the bylaws of the subject timeshare.

Legal law vs practical enforcement are two vary different things.

The large scale DVC rental market exists not because it's legal. It exists because Disney allows it to.

As talked about upthread, Disney can choose to constrain this like other timeshare companies have done and the members probably will have no recourse but to adjust their business to whatever Disney dictates....and in some cases exit completely.

It's Disney's playground.

 

[Genie+]

This section is interesting… (there are some minor differences between https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter721 and http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0721/0721.html , the following is from the latter)

“721.205 Resale service providers; disclosure obligations.—

…

3. A statement printed in at least 12-point boldfaced type immediately preceding the space in the contract provided for the consumer timeshare reseller’s signature in substantially the following form:
TIMESHARE OWNER’S
RIGHT OF CANCELLATION

(Name of resale advertiser) will provide resale advertising services pursuant to this contract. If (name of resale advertiser) represents that (name of resale advertiser) has identified a person who is interested in purchasing or renting your timeshare interest, then (name of resale advertiser) must provide you with the name, address, and telephone number of such represented interested resale purchaser.

You have an unwaivable right to cancel this contract for any reason within 10 days after the date you sign this contract. If you decide to cancel this contract, you must notify (name of resale advertiser) in writing of your intent to cancel. Your notice of cancellation shall be effective upon the date sent and shall be sent to (resale advertiser’s physical address) or to (resale advertiser’s e-mail address) . Your refund will be made within 20 days after receipt of notice of cancellation or within 5 days after receipt of funds from your cleared check, whichever is later.

You are not obligated to pay (name of resale advertiser) any money unless you sign this contract and return it to (name of resale advertiser) .

IMPORTANT: Before signing this contract, you should carefully review your original timeshare purchase contract and other project documents to determine whether the developer has reserved a right of first refusal or other option to purchase your timeshare interest or to determine whether there are any restrictions or special conditions applicable to the resale or rental of your timeshare interest.”


Sooo… does that mean rental brokers also need to allow 10 day rescission period on rentals?

A developer may have restrictions or special conditions applicable to rental of your timeshare interest? I just can’t find anything stating the limits of those restrictions or special conditions, in a way that protects a timeshares owner’s right to rent.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Legal law vs practical enforcement are two vary different things.

The large scale DVC rental market exists not because it's legal. It exists because Disney allows it to.

As talked about upthread, Disney can choose to constrain this like other timeshare companies have done and the members probably will have no recourse but to adjust their business to whatever Disney dictates....and in some cases exit completely.

It's Disney's playground.

Again, not arguing or disputing that. For the last time, I'm asking, in direct response to those who continuously state that rentals are explicitly guaranteed under Florida law, for direction as to exactly where in the Statutes one can find it.

I don't care what Disney can or can't do. That's a different discussion. People keep saying rentals are guaranteed under the law, and I want to know where that can be found. It's not my job to go hunting, because I didn't make the representation. I simply keep asking for what I assumed would be a readily available link (since so many people seem familiar with the Statute). It just seems like it would be a simple ask. Apparently not.

 

[Sandisw]

One thing I want to kind of address....

I keep seeing the phrase.... "It doesn't matter what we think, it is about what Disney thinks" or some such....

This is totally wrong IMO. This is all about what we, the rank and file DVC members think. If Dis is hearing constantly from members that renting, especially spec renting, is a problem, they will address it. So it's important, if you feel as I do, that you keep stating so. More importantly, keep telling your guide about the issue. I know I do.

And I have had many conversations with them that I don’t want very strict definitions because they don’t support the way I think the contract is written in balancing right to rent and commercial purposes as a business.

But, the point is that ulimatelt, DVC will decided to implement rules that would be seen as reasonable…the language that is in the POS…actions that an owner is engaging in commercial activity.

IMO, I’d bet the vast majority of owners do not want to see severe limits that have been expressed here. I take the info that @drusba has posted as a good legal analysis of things and expect that some of that will be used by DVC as well.

 

[DonMacGregor]

This section is interesting… (there are some minor differences between https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter721 and http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0721/0721.html , the following is from the latter)

“721.205 Resale service providers; disclosure obligations.—

…

3. A statement printed in at least 12-point boldfaced type immediately preceding the space in the contract provided for the consumer timeshare reseller’s signature in substantially the following form:
TIMESHARE OWNER’S
RIGHT OF CANCELLATION

(Name of resale advertiser) will provide resale advertising services pursuant to this contract. If (name of resale advertiser) represents that (name of resale advertiser) has identified a person who is interested in purchasing or renting your timeshare interest, then (name of resale advertiser) must provide you with the name, address, and telephone number of such represented interested resale purchaser.

You have an unwaivable right to cancel this contract for any reason within 10 days after the date you sign this contract. If you decide to cancel this contract, you must notify (name of resale advertiser) in writing of your intent to cancel. Your notice of cancellation shall be effective upon the date sent and shall be sent to (resale advertiser’s physical address) or to (resale advertiser’s e-mail address) . Your refund will be made within 20 days after receipt of notice of cancellation or within 5 days after receipt of funds from your cleared check, whichever is later.

You are not obligated to pay (name of resale advertiser) any money unless you sign this contract and return it to (name of resale advertiser) .

IMPORTANT: Before signing this contract, you should carefully review your original timeshare purchase contract and other project documents to determine whether the developer has reserved a right of first refusal or other option to purchase your timeshare interest or to determine whether there are any restrictions or special conditions applicable to the resale or rental of your timeshare interest.”


Sooo… does that mean rental brokers also need to allow 10 day rescission period on rentals?

A developer may have restrictions or special conditions applicable to rental of your timeshare interest? I just can’t find anything stating the limits of those restrictions or special conditions, in a way that protects a timeshares owner’s right to rent.

Yes, I've read all that, and it addresses the requirements for a rental agreement, but it doesn't make any mention of any right to renting guarantee under the law. That seems to be the primary (only?) reference to renting in the Statute.

 

[Sandisw]

It was somewhat rhetorical. I've read 721 several times and have never seen any language that implicitly guarantees the right to rent out your timeshare. Plenty of language guaranteeing USE of the timeshare, but nothing about any legal right to RENT it out.

People just keep posting that it's "in there"...

You have to check the other sections of the law that are cited in the POS that relate to condos as those also apply to the timeshares. IIRC, try 718 and 719.

Or it is in a different one covering vacation rentals as mentioned above…I am sure for those really interested it can be found.

I have quoted that it is in the law, but honestly don’t care if owners rent so I too could have been repeating it…though I do remembers seeing a notation to where it was.

 

[dededuce]

I will bet a pile of Mickey Bars that the motivation is people on the sales floor who are considering a purchase but say one of (a) they believe/have heard that rentals are making it harder to book and they are afraid to buy or (b) they can get rentals cheaply enough so they don't need to buy.

They have 100% heard both from me, multiple times

 

[lowlight]

Sooo… does that mean rental brokers also need to allow 10 day rescission period on rentals?

I feel like a cave man marveling at fire when I look at legalese. The lawyers on here must get a kick out of this stuff.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Is it possible it's covered under the statutes governing "vacation rentals" because it's a deeded property interest? 509.032(7) restricts laws from prohibiting vacation rentals.

That section simply prohibits a local authority from enacting their own ordinances and vests (pre-empts to the state) all authority for governing vacation rentals with the state.

(b) A local law, ordinance, or regulation may not prohibit vacation rentals or regulate the duration or frequency of rental of vacation rentals. This paragraph does not apply to any local law, ordinance, or regulation adopted on or before June 1, 2011.

 

[DonMacGregor]

You hafe to check the other sections of the law that are cited in the POS that relate to condos as those also apply to the timeshares. IIRC, try 718 and 719.

Not to be that guy, but why do I need to try digging for it? You would think all the shiny brains on here would know where to find it, since it forms the foundation for so many opinions (legal and otherwise). Don't get me wrong, if it's there, it's there. I'm just honestly surprised that literally no one seems to know where a seminal piece of legislation that they reference over and over can be found. This is far from the first thread where a citation has been asked for and never received.

ETA: It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as I've said many times before that I have no problem with renting within confines that exclude commercial and spec renters, but that don't negatively affect the rank and file.

 

[Chuck S]

Is it possible it's covered under the statutes governing "vacation rentals" because it's a deeded property interest? 509.032(7) restricts laws from prohibiting vacation rentals.

Which would explain why DVC is trying out the "Trust" scenario at the Cabins.

 

[Sandisw]

Not to be that guy, but why do I need to try digging for it? You would think all the shiny brains on here would know where to find it, since it forms the foundation for so many opinions (legal and otherwise). Don't get me wrong, if it's there, it's there. I'm just honestly surprised that literally no one seems to know where a seminal piece of legislation that they reference over and over can be found. This is far from the first thread where a citation has been asked for and never received.

ETA: It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as I've said many times before that I have no problem with renting within confines that exclude commercial and spec renters, but that don't negatively affect the rank and file.

Same reason I’m not digging for it…I don’t care if people rent and want to be allowed to do it when or if needed within a reasonable expectation that is grounded in the POS,

More important to me is that it doesn’t impact my ability to use it for family and friends who I gift trips regularly.

ETA: I am vaguely remembering now that it was quoted around the law guiding vacation rentals and that applies to timeshare rentals as welll…so it’s that section 509 or thereabouts that is being referenced.

 

[Brian Noble]

I think Don's point is that it if someone claims "the law states X" it is not anyone else's job to prove that it doesn't say that---it is the responsibility of the one making the claim to back it up.

Don's just asking those making the claim to back it up.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Same reason I’m not digging for it…I don’t care if people rent and want to be allowed to do it when or if needed within a reasonable expectation that is grounded in the POS,

Right, but I didn't ask you or anyone else for that matter to go digging for it. I assumed (incorrectly obviously) that with so many people falling back on the "it's guaranteed under the law" argument with almost metaphysical certitude, that it would be readily available to SOMEONE, without any digging.

I just find argumentum ad verecundiam, without any support, to be very lazy. if you're sure about the authority referenced, then provide it.

 

[Chuck S]

And remember they have 5 full resorts (BWV, Vero, Hilton Head, Boulder Ridge, BCV) and much of OKW expiring in 18 years, I doubt they even care about doing anything to limit rentals at those resorts, since once 2042 rolls around, they'll close them, possibly send them through an extended refurbishment, and then resell them as part of the trust, assuming the trust thing doesn't shy potential owners away from the program. And I wouldn't be shocked of they sold HH and Vero completely to a different company, like Marriott to avoid the cost of a refurb.

 

[Sandisw]

Right, but I didn't ask you or anyone else for that matter to go digging for it. I assumed (incorrectly obviously) that with so many people falling back on the "it's guaranteed under the law" argument with almost metaphysical certitude, that it would be readily available to SOMEONE, without any digging.

I just find argumentum ad verecundiam, without any support, to be very lazy. if you're sure about the authority referenced, then provide it.

I added above but I am vaguely remembering now it’s the laws of the state regarding vacation rentals…and that applies to timeshares as well.

If I am reading it correctly It appears to be part of the licensing of a timeshare project that renting is a piece of it.

https://www2.myfloridalicense.com/hotels-restaurants/licensing/vrtsp-guide/

 

[Brian Noble]

That only is defining whether or not you need to be licensed by the State of Florida to offer rentals---the agent offering it for rent, not whether or not it is licensed as a timeshare plan.

I was able to find exactly one other mention to Section 509 in any of the Purchasing, Member Services, or Mouscellaneous boards, in the context of maximum stay limits.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/how-many-dvc-points-to-live-at-wdw.3036055/post-47527154

 

[wdw_explorer]

I am not a lawyer, but to me the language in 721 that states (which someone noted before)

IMPORTANT: Before signing this contract, you should carefully review your original timeshare purchase contract and other project documents to determine whether the developer has reserved a right of first refusal or other option to purchase your timeshare interest or to determine whether there are any restrictions or special conditions applicable to the resale or rental of your timeshare interest.

appears to be the operative section. While not explicitly stating it, it warns buyers to be careful signing something that limits their ability to rent - implying they have one. Clearly there are no statute disallowing it in whole. Additionally, if the developer could add a limitation later there would be no reason to warn consumers to be careful not give away that ability as it could be limited anyway at the developer's discretion (and hence it being in the contract would be moot).

In that same section it talks about a right of first refusal. I do not believe a developer could add that after the contract was executed either as it impinges on my right of selling my contract. If I have signed a contract without a right of first refusal clause there may be nowhere explicitly in FL law that says that I may sell my contract to whomever I want at whatever price I want but unless the law explicitly bars certain types of sales (or allows the developer to) I certainly have that right.

I am positing that someone can rent what they own UNLESS they are explicitly barred by statute, ordinance, contractual agreement or allowed power of the developer. I would say it is incumbent on someone finding the statue that allows the developer to limit that right (post contract), not on finding a statute that guarantees it.

My two cents.

Again, not a lawyer, so I would love for one to chime in!

 

[DonMacGregor]

And again, I'm not arguing that rentals aren't allowed under the law, as they very clearly are. I'm simply asking where it says that if Don owns a timeshare, he has a guaranteed right under Florida law to use it as a rental property, and that that right can't be abrogated by the condominium association or any other entity.