DVC plans to target commercial renters

[DonMacGregor]

From the other thread:

However, the last rental I did (summer last year), the points owner was an LLC affiliated with the broker.

Since it's a slow morning, what does the hive mind think about this, in light of the language on flipping that I quoted the other day:

As to flippers (not the subject of this thread, but something else worthy of discussion possibly elsewhere) keep in mind that the first bolded section actually reads in its entirety:

Such commercial purpose could include a pattern of rental activity of reserved Vacation Homes or frequent occupancy by others of reserved Vacation Homes other than a Club Member or the Club Member's family; use of regular rental or resale advertising; creating,
maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website; repeated or frequent purchase and resale of Ownership Interests whether in
the name of a Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts; or the
acquisition of a number of Ownership Interests in excess of the amount of the maximum permitted ownership whether in the name of a
Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts.

So DVC also sees the very real potential for flippers to be engaged in commercial renting (or more specifically purchasing loaded contracts with the primary intent of stripping them, then commercially renting out the points prior to reselling). It's clearly an association/connection DVC has made, based on whatever data they possess. That phrase is a specific reference to purchasing and reselling contracts (flipping) in a paragraph otherwise solely dedicated to renting. The phrase afterwards addresses buying multiple contracts to circumvent points maximums, but that "frequent purchase and resale" phrase specifically relates to flipping.

When you look at "creating, maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website" in conjunction with "repeated or frequent purchase and resale of Ownership Interests whether in the name of a Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts", that certainly seems to be geared towards brokers flipping and renting points.

 

[JackosinDIS]

From the other thread:

Since it's a slow morning, what does the hive mind think about this, in light of the language on flipping that I quoted the other day:

When you look at "creating, maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website" in conjunction with "repeated or frequent purchase and resale of Ownership Interests whether in the name of a Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts", that certainly seems to be geared towards brokers flipping and renting points.

Totally agree. This situation is exactly what the language in the contracts is aimed at.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Totally agree. This situation is exactly what the language in the contracts is aimed at.

Interestingly, as an example, the board sponsor doesn't have any confirmed reservations listed at CFW, but they do have reservation requests available to claim there, and they are paying out the same per-point price as VGF (second highest tier).

I'm NOT suggesting that the board sponsor is doing anything wrong, and I have no idea who @ehh rented through, or at what resort, but I do find it interesting that there is rental activity involving the one resort that the quoted language is specific to...

 

[Tatebeck]

Interestingly, as an example, the board sponsor doesn't have any confirmed reservations listed at CFW, but they do have reservation requests available to claim there, and they are paying out the same per-point price as VGF (second highest tier).

I'm NOT suggesting that the board sponsor is doing anything wrong, and I have no idea who @ehh rented through, or at what resort, but I do find it interesting that there is rental activity involving the one resort that the quoted language is specific to...

I think it is more that spec renters aren't buying CFW points because they are full price direct (with no resale showing up yet) and they have high dues. Buying at a resort with lower buy in and lower dues is much more lucrative. For now they may rent and post some at 7 month availability, but most of the prime dates will be taken by actual owning members at from 7 to 11 months for now, not by spec renters in my opinion.

 

[kilik64]

I was simply responding to how someone could come to that conclusion in reference to impact on availability for other owners.

The mindset is just different. While some care who is using the room, others just don’t.

Nothing related to more than that.

Where I have always been, points are points.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I think it is more that spec renters aren't buying CFW points because they are full price direct (with no resale showing up yet) and they have high dues. Buying at a resort with lower buy in and lower dues is much more lucrative. For now they may rent and post some at 7 month availability, but most of the prime dates will be taken by actual owning members at from 7 to 11 months for now, not by spec renters in my opinion.

My point was more that it doesn’t seem that they are particularly concerned with that language I quoted.

 

[xdan0920]

Where I have always been, points are points.

This is so silly.

Yeah, points are points. But the booking patterns are the issue.

In a normal, non renting universe rooms book up as MEMBERS book their trips. Some book at 11, some at 9, 7, 5 etc….

In this new world where 1000s of confirmed reservations are available for purchase, the pattern is completely screwed up. Rooms mostly studios are completely booked at 11 months, with a few preferred views holding on till 10 months.

This makes it much harder for regular owners to book vacations in a normal manner.

 

[Genie+]

This is so silly.

Yeah, points are points. But the booking patterns are the issue.

In a normal, non renting universe rooms book up as MEMBERS book their trips. Some book at 11, some at 9, 7, 5 etc….

In this new world where 1000s of confirmed reservations are available for purchase, the pattern is completely screwed up. Rooms mostly studios are completely booked at 11 months, with a few preferred views holding on till 10 months.

This makes it much harder for regular owners to book vacations in a normal manner.

^This is the question for DVC. I know they mentioned impact not widespread but that could mean many things honestly. Because if commercial booking patterns had major impact to 20+% of rooms, that could be called not widespread.

I’d like to know how severe is it to the areas impacted, if impact goes beyond 11 month availability, and if they do see a good deal of difference of between suspected commercial rental patterns of usage vs regular personal use owners. I’d be happy to get even one of those answers.

When we did a rental ourselves, it was super easy to find something to sell at highest prices because I didn’t have to match our dates of travel. I could pull whatever popped up then look for someone willing to buy it. It’s just different. Every stage of the way. Many advantages where commercial rental can bleed the system. If you are an owner that booked a harder room for yourself then later needed to add a day or two, goodluck! While 20 other personal use owners might see it and walk past because they already have other trip date plans, the very first commercial renters and their system scraper will pull it if they have the points available.

 

[Sandisw]

This is so silly.

Yeah, points are points. But the booking patterns are the issue.

In a normal, non renting universe rooms book up as MEMBERS book their trips. Some book at 11, some at 9, 7, 5 etc….

In this new world where 1000s of confirmed reservations are available for purchase, the pattern is completely screwed up. Rooms mostly studios are completely booked at 11 months, with a few preferred views holding on till 10 months.

This makes it much harder for regular owners to book vacations in a normal manner.

That was why I said it’s a mindset difference and mindsets are the way people think and view things.

If one looks at DVC through the lense that who is using the room is not material to things, when it comes to availability, then they aren’t going to see it the same as someone whose mindset is that DVC should be about the owners first.

So, it was more to explain why owners can come to different conclusions based on the same facts.

 

[Sandisw]

My point was more that it doesn’t seem that they are particularly concerned with that language I quoted.

Probably for the same reason so many owners transfer points for money?

They won’t get concerned until they know something will be done.

 

[Genie+]

I can only look at my own usage and the rest is just clues, like when 14 AKV value studio confirmed reservations remained listed together for March 17, 2024. If the other 6 already sold to spec res, 100% of them went to rental that day. Though we know at least 70% were.

But going back to my own usage. When my niece decided to join us I grabbed a week at SSR with my VGF points because that was the only studio available. If I was looking to profit, I would not use the points there. Definitely would’ve booked either my home resort at 11 months or stalked the high roller rooms. When we booked for ourselves around 11 months out and saw no availability in Dec, we took Nov. I would not have done that if looking to sell points, I would’ve waitlisted and stalked something higher demand and lower points. Right now we have 2 years of BWV points building up. Darn skippy you know where we’d use them if renting. But for ourselves? I’m not so concerned about that low point high price return.

It’s not a point is a point. There’s commercial use patterns and personal use patterns and I think they are very far apart. What I don’t know is how much is that difference actually playing out in the system. Because if it does get out whack then DVC needs to curtail by enforcing.

 

[Matty B13]

This is so silly.

Yeah, points are points. But the booking patterns are the issue.

In a normal, non renting universe rooms book up as MEMBERS book their trips. Some book at 11, some at 9, 7, 5 etc….

In this new world where 1000s of confirmed reservations are available for purchase, the pattern is completely screwed up. Rooms mostly studios are completely booked at 11 months, with a few preferred views holding on till 10 months.

This makes it much harder for regular owners to book vacations in a normal manner.

Also, if the weekends are getting booked up by spec rentals, then trying to grab a 7+ day reservation gets harder and harder, especially around school vacation times.

 

[lowlight]

This is so silly.

Yeah, points are points. But the booking patterns are the issue.

In a normal, non renting universe rooms book up as MEMBERS book their trips. Some book at 11, some at 9, 7, 5 etc….

In this new world where 1000s of confirmed reservations are available for purchase, the pattern is completely screwed up. Rooms mostly studios are completely booked at 11 months, with a few preferred views holding on till 10 months.

This makes it much harder for regular owners to book vacations in a normal manner.

I still haven’t booked my whole week, waiting on waitlists, but it’s available at several FB groups so there’s that. I’m not sure why someone would read a 100 page thread on renting and at the end say “oh I don’t care about renting anyhow I’ve never been affected by it”. That’s a lot spare time spent reading something that doesn’t bother you.

 

[Nabas]

And the total is actually much higher since many have already sold and were removed.

That’s how many are Left for the next 11 months and surely more will get added as well.

It’s nuts.

It looks like this aggregator collects data from only some of the better-known DVC rental websites. I suspect there are many more confirmed reservations from other sources.

https://www.dvcrentalpros.com/copy-of-confirmed-reservation-aggregator

 

[DonMacGregor]

They won’t get concerned until they know something will be done.

But unlike so many anonymous mom and pop rental owners, they are running around with an air horn blowing and banners waving, arguably thumbing their nose at a set of rules literally and specifically aimed at them, and letting DVC and the world know exactly who’s doing it.

I'm guessing if this were a thread solely about online rental brokers and resale agents, and I had posted this back on Page 1:

Such commercial purpose could include a pattern of rental activity of reserved Vacation Homes or frequent occupancy by others of reserved Vacation Homes other than a Club Member or the Club Member's family; use of regular rental or resale advertising; creating,
maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website; repeated or frequent purchase and resale of Ownership Interests whether in
the name of a Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts; or the
acquisition of a number of Ownership Interests in excess of the amount of the maximum permitted ownership whether in the name of a
Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts.

This thread would have struggled to make it to 10 pages before a consensus was reached.

 

[xdan0920]

That was why I said it’s a mindset difference and mindsets are the way people think and view things.

If one looks at DVC through the lense that who is using the room is not material to things, when it comes to availability, then they aren’t going to see it the same as someone whose mindset is that DVC should be about the owners first.

So, it was more to explain why owners can come to different conclusions based on the same facts.

How can you look at that aggregator and not see a problem?

 

[ehh]

Interestingly, as an example, the board sponsor doesn't have any confirmed reservations listed at CFW, but they do have reservation requests available to claim there, and they are paying out the same per-point price as VGF (second highest tier).

I'm NOT suggesting that the board sponsor is doing anything wrong, and I have no idea who @ehh rented through, or at what resort, but I do find it interesting that there is rental activity involving the one resort that the quoted language is specific to...

I'd prefer not to share who I rented from, but it was at BLT on short notice (booked less than 30 days from date of stay), not a spec reservation.

When I saw the LLC as the listed owner of the points, I definitely did think 'well I guess it makes sense that was the fastest owner to respond...'

As for whether or not they knew they were doing something against the rules? All I know is the information they provided me, and one of the emails they sent said "If asked during check-in, please refer to yourselves as a guest of [redacted LLC], not a renter."


...and recently I've been watching this thread with amusement whenever certain 'hypotheticals' come up lol

 

[JOLT]

I still haven’t booked my whole week, waiting on waitlists, but it’s available at several FB groups so there’s that. I’m not sure why someone would read a 100 page thread on renting and at the end say “oh I don’t care about renting anyhow I’ve never been affected by it”. That’s a lot spare time spent reading something that doesn’t bother you.

Sorry if you've already posted but what are you trying to book that you aren't able to?

 

[Hubalorian]

Could Disney just get access to rental agreement and know that the person renting “made” X vs how much their dues cost for the points rented. Disney could then set a threshold of anything above X dollars is for commercial purposes. So, it’s not about the rooms per se but how much money you are making on the rooms.

 

[kilik64]

How can you look at that aggregator and not see a problem?

Because those rooms were booked with points same as any other?