Disney Debt!

[redrosesix]

It's been interesting reading the responses here.

Yes, Disney is VERY overpriced. People often forget that they are targeting people with higher income levels, and that's the majority of people on the boards. I'm not sure why I stick around, I'm certainly not in that demographic. I grew up poor. A vacation was a pipe dream, let alone a Disney vacation. I've been to the parks twice. The first time my parents put themselves in debt to give us a once in a lifetime family vacation (on the cheap, stayed offsite, etc). Our first vacation ever. I see people condemning people for going into debt for a trip, but my father was working himself to death. It was the first time he'd ever taken a day off work that wasn't absolutely necessary. It's the only time in my life I remember him being around for any length of time and enjoying himself. The second time my boyfriend-at-the-time and I were travelling through on our way somewhere else and we managed to stop for a couple days. Hardly a blip, but I couldn't pass up going back when I had the chance. We also did that trip on the cheap.

Financially, I'm better off now, but with inflation I'm not sure it's much different. I'm technically glassed as middle class, but I just barely make that cutoff. This year I might not. I'll never be able to afford to go back, and I know it. Right now it's a struggle to survive, and I'm not getting any younger so I need to start thinking long term. Even taking that out of the equation, Disney prices just aren't worth it. I read the boards. Crowds are too big, entry prices are way too high, you're nickel and dimed to death once inside, and overall quality is down. They've turned into another huge corporation who cares about nothing other than profits. If I had the money and did go then I'm sure I'd have fun, but I'm also sure I'd have buyers remorse. But the "if"s don't matter, since myself and my whole family have been priced out.

Disney has always been expensive. but now it's unreasonable. It really shocks me how many people are still willing to pay for it. But I get wanting to experience the magic.

I agree with you about mostly everything...but I think you're wrong about who the Dis members are. Yes there are a lot of people who go on and on about being able to afford anything and how they would be willing to pay extra in a deluxe for better pillows but they are the minority. Most people will not be talking about how little they can afford...but they will be on the Budget Board, or the threads talking about how to save $5 off a $50 gift card as if it's make or break for their vacation, or buying flights on points they got from buying other things (I'm in Canada...we're buying our flights on Airmiles, mostly from grocery shopping).

For more people it's about having a trip every 2 years or more, and unfortunately when the trips are few and far between there is more pressure to make them perfect...and that's why we're here. A lot of us will pay for the Fireworks Dessert Party unwillingly because it's the only way to see the fireworks without sitting and waiting for 3 hours of an expensive park day...because now there is only one fireworks show. they need to close earlier rather than extending park hours based on crowd levels, because they have to kick out the average guest so that Deluxe guests can have their exclusive time. But they don't get the second fireworks either...they got something extra, but they also lost everything that the rest of us lost.

I'm doing my PhD in economics and this is kind of sort of related to what I study. Yes the ticket prices from 1971 are comparable to today but I was there when there was only MK and I had to buy books of tickets...which were relatively cheap, so I also got a ton of souvenirs, mostly from PotC. I went on a school trip from Canada because growing up my parents couldn't afford to take us on trips outside the country. This is because they paid cash for every vacation, and every vacation was paid for out of disposable income...which we don't even talk about anymore because there is none for most people. When my parents got married they put a 30 percent downpayment on a house, they went out to watch a 15 piece band every weekend and my dad owned his own tux. People actually owned evening clothes, and even though my father was just a trumpet player in the army he went to see Louis Armstrong twice. There was no concert he couldn't afford to go to.

But air travel was a pure luxury and our trips were drive til you drop in a car that was paid for with cash, we ate homemade sandwiches in picnic parks along the way, and stayed in whatever hotel we found and paid with cash....all extra money. And my mother wasn't working. My elderly neighbours across the street paid off their first and only house in 10 years, then paid cash for everything after that...when they bought their house the guideline was a house should cost one year's salary.

Our economy has changed and Disney better figure out that the number of people who are willing to pay exorbitant amounts for once in a lifetime trips to Disneyworld is quickly dwindling. All trips are financed by debt except by the rich, even where people are paying in full and not paying off things like their house or their car. It has to feel like good value if you're going to be paying for it like forever. I'm seeing more and more articles about how they have priced themselves out of the budget of most families, and certainly the quality of the vacation has gone downhill extremely fast. Not only are they not the only resort in Florida, cheaper airfare means we can travel almost anywhere for less than a Disney trip...and in most cases the perks and services are beyond anything that Disney is now offering. Like it would cost them zero to allow resort guests to make an ADR for a busy counter service, it would make them more money to allow guests to ship purchases back to their resort, and Magical Express made certain that more guests stayed and paid in the bubble. Disney doesn't do these things anymore because they don't care about their guests. They don't care who comes to the parks or if they come back. They are just as happy having all retired people as guests, and could care less whether families with little kids can afford their hotels. I agree with every critical piece I've seen in the past month...they don't care about Walt's vision, just the money. Too bad they haven't figured out that Walt's idea of catering to ALL guests regardless of income level also made them lots and lots of money.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

I feel like back when parks were mobbed before covid, people would talk about WDW needing a 5th gate or some way to ease the crowds to bring them back to levels that most of us can recall from the good ole days.
Disney’s easiest solution was to just jack up the prices to outrageous levels, enough to make a lot of people stay away. Problem solved.
Less staff needed. Rides don’t need to be operated at max capacity for most of the year and still rake in more money.

 

[kathy884]

and that is the sentiment many of us found our older teens/young adults expressing when we proposed return trips to disney. the rides are not attractive to their desires and they feel none of the emotional connections to any repetative experiences/observations at the parks that many of us who visited as children have.

the last trip we took with our adult children they were much more keen on going to universal. the felt the rides were better and made a better connection with them (they identified with harry potter while they viewed the competing disney star wars offerings as being dated b/c they equate it with 'an old overdone movie franchise that came out when YOU were in high school and disney has been doing and redoing since the 80's').

There are exceptions (my son, my niece, one of my son's best friends who just no matter what age they were adore / adored the Magic Kingdom), but I agree with you that that is the case for so many of the older teen / young adult population.

From age 10 to 18, although I enjoyed the whole Florida experience on the regular trip my parents took us to WDW (There was only one park then that we would go to for two days and we were in Florida for a week or two weeks.), I thought Disney was a little lame. My very favorite place to go back then was Cedar Point in Sandusky, OH and we went there annually too. Only at age 40-50 when I started to not enjoy the thrill rides as much did I really start appreciating Disney more (took my son to both places though). My equilibrium had already changed by the time we really started going to Universal, so although I thought the theming of the Harry Potter areas was amazing, simulator rides are not for me and on our last trip for example our 20 / 30 somethings went to Universal and at the same time I went to Epcot Flower and Garden again instead with the 80 somethings in the family. lol

 

[simonsayz]

Interesting read! I've done similar hours, but if I'm being honest I'm getting too old for that now. Pre covid I was working more than full time hours at one job and another 30+ hours at my second job. Didn't leave me much time for anything else. I was let go from my second job during covid when they shut everything down, because they were only allowed to be open limited hours and because of labor laws (which we were already skirting) they couldn't find a way to give me the minimum 3 hour shift. I've been in tech for decades, but the market is saturated here and most places appear to be cutting staff. People here are also... cheap? Poor? They want everything for nothing, or you bill and they don't want to pay, so consulting is difficult. I'm always trying to improve my skills, but it's hard when I'm on my own. There's no help with household chores, etc, all of which suck up time. And as much as I'd love to only work for myself, I know it's a ton of work, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the risk. If I don't make enough to pay my bills, I have no backup plan and no help with that either. You look to be nice and diversified, so you should be pretty safe. Getting to that point is extremely difficult, and it's commendable. It's a lot of work, and (no offense) some luck.

No offense taken, but I think a lot of people confused persistence with luck. You ask a lot of the successful people and they 99% of the time tell you it isn't luck. It is persistence.

When I put in 4 years of time and sweat into it and the first 3 years I didn't have any clients. 4th year I get 1 client that paid me $105/month and then I raised it to $120/mo eventually. Most people would've just called it quits and just go back to regularing 9-5 job.
It was word of mouth, I did a great job for just $120/mo. He then referred me to his connection. I lost the current client and then the new client I was able to charge more. I did a great job, he introduced me to another client and eventually this client went off doing something else so I lost him as a client. This new client introduced me to his partners and so on. You can call that luck but that's because I persisted on giving 200% for even a small amount of money and it got noticed.

"Luck" is seen as the result of hard work and persistence. If we are using the word luck, I would say that my first 5 years were just pure bad luck and if someone is running on bad luck for that many years straight, no one would do it.

I am not young but I am still willing to sacrifice my time and literally headaches/migraines I get from doing the work. I can't call off sick even when I was really feeling like crap lol

Yes there are a lot of risk involved doing your own thing, but don't go cold and just quit your job to do your own thing.

"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right." - Henry Ford

Also, don't compare yourself to ANYONE. Everyone has their own journey and paths they have to go through. You just need to find yours. Don't lose sight of your goals, you might just have to take a detour.

You have to stay positive.

“I know it seems hard sometimes but remember one thing. Through every dark night, there's a bright day after that. So no matter how hard it get, stick your chest out, keep ya head up.... and handle it.” - Tupac Shakur

 

[simonsayz]

I feel like back when parks were mobbed before covid, people would talk about WDW needing a 5th gate or some way to ease the crowds to bring them back to levels that most of us can recall from the good ole days.
Disney’s easiest solution was to just jack up the prices to outrageous levels, enough to make a lot of people stay away. Problem solved.
Less staff needed. Rides don’t need to be operated at max capacity for most of the year and still rake in more money.

I think the idea isn't to make it so expensive you can't go. It is to make it expensive enough that the average family won't be going annually to control the crowd

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

I think the idea isn't to make it so expensive you can't go. It is to make it expensive enough that the average family won't be going annually to control the crowd

Well perhaps that was their intention but with all of this inflation, people are having a harder time making ends meet let alone save extra for vacation.
Dh and I just happen to be at a stage of life where our most expensive times are past us.

 

[goofytinkerbell]

View attachment 898590

It's a fun meme, and more true than most people realize! There's also one floating around that shows a house from design to final product that runs along the same theme.

This is true but do people who didn't put in any of the work become successful at their craft? Usually not. Those are the ones who tend to look at successful people with jealousy instead of admiration.

Sometimes, yes. Usually it's not a craft, but people who land themselves into good paying management positions. I like to call it "failing upward", where they can't really do their jobs, but somehow manage to get promoted. When they start failing at that one, they get promoted again. Sadly more common than you'd believe.

I agree with you about mostly everything...but I think you're wrong about who the Dis members are. Yes there are a lot of people who go on and on about being able to afford anything and how they would be willing to pay extra in a deluxe for better pillows but they are the minority. Most people will not be talking about how little they can afford...but they will be on the Budget Board, or the threads talking about how to save $5 off a $50 gift card as if it's make or break for their vacation, or buying flights on points they got from buying other things (I'm in Canada...we're buying our flights on Airmiles, mostly from grocery shopping).

For more people it's about having a trip every 2 years or more, and unfortunately when the trips are few and far between there is more pressure to make them perfect...and that's why we're here. A lot of us will pay for the Fireworks Dessert Party unwillingly because it's the only way to see the fireworks without sitting and waiting for 3 hours of an expensive park day...because now there is only one fireworks show. they need to close earlier rather than extending park hours based on crowd levels, because they have to kick out the average guest so that Deluxe guests can have their exclusive time. But they don't get the second fireworks either...they got something extra, but they also lost everything that the rest of us lost.

I'm doing my PhD in economics and this is kind of sort of related to what I study. Yes the ticket prices from 1971 are comparable to today but I was there when there was only MK and I had to buy books of tickets...which were relatively cheap, so I also got a ton of souvenirs, mostly from PotC. I went on a school trip from Canada because growing up my parents couldn't afford to take us on trips outside the country. This is because they paid cash for every vacation, and every vacation was paid for out of disposable income...which we don't even talk about anymore because there is none for most people. When my parents got married they put a 30 percent downpayment on a house, they went out to watch a 15 piece band every weekend and my dad owned his own tux. People actually owned evening clothes, and even though my father was just a trumpet player in the army he went to see Louis Armstrong twice. There was no concert he couldn't afford to go to.

But air travel was a pure luxury and our trips were drive til you drop in a car that was paid for with cash, we ate homemade sandwiches in picnic parks along the way, and stayed in whatever hotel we found and paid with cash....all extra money. And my mother wasn't working. My elderly neighbours across the street paid off their first and only house in 10 years, then paid cash for everything after that...when they bought their house the guideline was a house should cost one year's salary.

Our economy has changed and Disney better figure out that the number of people who are willing to pay exorbitant amounts for once in a lifetime trips to Disneyworld is quickly dwindling. All trips are financed by debt except by the rich, even where people are paying in full and not paying off things like their house or their car. It has to feel like good value if you're going to be paying for it like forever. I'm seeing more and more articles about how they have priced themselves out of the budget of most families, and certainly the quality of the vacation has gone downhill extremely fast. Not only are they not the only resort in Florida, cheaper airfare means we can travel almost anywhere for less than a Disney trip...and in most cases the perks and services are beyond anything that Disney is now offering. Like it would cost them zero to allow resort guests to make an ADR for a busy counter service, it would make them more money to allow guests to ship purchases back to their resort, and Magical Express made certain that more guests stayed and paid in the bubble. Disney doesn't do these things anymore because they don't care about their guests. They don't care who comes to the parks or if they come back. They are just as happy having all retired people as guests, and could care less whether families with little kids can afford their hotels. I agree with every critical piece I've seen in the past month...they don't care about Walt's vision, just the money. Too bad they haven't figured out that Walt's idea of catering to ALL guests regardless of income level also made them lots and lots of money.

Fair! I'm sure there's loads of people who work hard to pay for their vacation, but I DO see a lot of people on here whose privilege shows. Maybe they're just the vocal minority, but it does give off an "I'm better than you" vibe. Maybe those particular people don't know what it's like to struggle, but you're right, there are certainly people on the boards who are scrimping to go. At the same time, I don't get a vacation every year, or even every 5. So just to be able to go somewhere looks like privilege to me.
When we managed to go on our one Disney family vacation we also drove, also in a paid for vehicle, with homemade food. We did a 3 day drive in 2 days, stopping to sleep at hotels where my job got me a deep discount. We didn't have extra money, but it was a once in a lifetime trip. Now we wouldn't even have enough credit to do it.

No offense taken, but I think a lot of people confused persistence with luck. You ask a lot of the successful people and they 99% of the time tell you it isn't luck. It is persistence.

When I put in 4 years of time and sweat into it and the first 3 years I didn't have any clients. 4th year I get 1 client that paid me $105/month and then I raised it to $120/mo eventually. Most people would've just called it quits and just go back to regularing 9-5 job.
It was word of mouth, I did a great job for just $120/mo. He then referred me to his connection. I lost the current client and then the new client I was able to charge more. I did a great job, he introduced me to another client and eventually this client went off doing something else so I lost him as a client. This new client introduced me to his partners and so on. You can call that luck but that's because I persisted on giving 200% for even a small amount of money and it got noticed.

"Luck" is seen as the result of hard work and persistence. If we are using the word luck, I would say that my first 5 years were just pure bad luck and if someone is running on bad luck for that many years straight, no one would do it.

I am not young but I am still willing to sacrifice my time and literally headaches/migraines I get from doing the work. I can't call off sick even when I was really feeling like crap lol

Yes there are a lot of risk involved doing your own thing, but don't go cold and just quit your job to do your own thing.

"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right." - Henry Ford

Also, don't compare yourself to ANYONE. Everyone has their own journey and paths they have to go through. You just need to find yours. Don't lose sight of your goals, you might just have to take a detour.

You have to stay positive.

“I know it seems hard sometimes but remember one thing. Through every dark night, there's a bright day after that. So no matter how hard it get, stick your chest out, keep ya head up.... and handle it.” - Tupac Shakur

Nope, not confusing it at all. Yes, a lot of people see others doing well and assume it's luck, but in a lot of cases it really is just hard work. However, there IS an element of luck. People who are born into family money or connections have a huge leg up over people who aren't. Being in the right place at the right time is also an element of luck. I know tons of people who work ridiculously hard, do everything right, but just can't catch a break. This doesn't always refer to starting your own business, but also just getting a decent job. You're not going to make it without putting in the work, I absolutely agree with that, but sometimes that's just not enough.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

It's a fun meme, and more true than most people realize! There's also one floating around that shows a house from design to final product that runs along the same theme.

Sometimes, yes. Usually it's not a craft, but people who land themselves into good paying management positions. I like to call it "failing upward", where they can't really do their jobs, but somehow manage to get promoted. When they start failing at that one, they get promoted again. Sadly more common than you'd believe.

Fair! I'm sure there's loads of people who work hard to pay for their vacation, but I DO see a lot of people on here whose privilege shows. Maybe they're just the vocal minority, but it does give off an "I'm better than you" vibe. Maybe those particular people don't know what it's like to struggle, but you're right, there are certainly people on the boards who are scrimping to go. At the same time, I don't get a vacation every year, or even every 5. So just to be able to go somewhere looks like privilege to me.
When we managed to go on our one Disney family vacation we also drove, also in a paid for vehicle, with homemade food. We did a 3 day drive in 2 days, stopping to sleep at hotels where my job got me a deep discount. We didn't have extra money, but it was a once in a lifetime trip. Now we wouldn't even have enough credit to do it.

Nope, not confusing it at all. Yes, a lot of people see others doing well and assume it's luck, but in a lot of cases it really is just hard work. However, there IS an element of luck. People who are born into family money or connections have a huge leg up over people who aren't. Being in the right place at the right time is also an element of luck. I know tons of people who work ridiculously hard, do everything right, but just can't catch a break. This doesn't always refer to starting your own business, but also just getting a decent job. You're not going to make it without putting in the work, I absolutely agree with that, but sometimes that's just not enough.

We have this at my work too but I don't consider middle management as being a "huge success." Sometimes those people get promoted because no one else wants the position and that person has the most seniority.
When I mean real success, I mean doing something big like starting up a business and growing it to something amazingly huge. Or when young children say they want to be a doctor, and actually continue saying it all the way through school.

Maybe because I work in a teaching hospital and see how insanely long they train. At our breast imaging center, when our fellows finish and become an attending, they are usually around 32 years old if they start immediately out of HS and don't take time off to have babies. Being smart is only half the battle. The amount of motivation and stamina they have to keep going is a rare quality.
No, it's not an Olympic sport, but still impressive. Our middle management are putzes.
Their power they flex over others only results in fear, not an earned respect. You cannot force others to respect you; it must be earned to be genuine.
This is jmho after 34 years there.

We also have a good friend who started an oil delivery business in the early 80s, delivering oil to homes that use oil for their heat in winter. For at least 20 years, he worked 16 hour days from October to November and we never saw him during that time except their big party every Christmas Eve. What started with one guy and a truck, barely scraping by, eventually turned into a multi-million dollar company with a huge fleet, and now going way beyond servicing furnaces but also full HVAC and we see his trucks sometimes when we're an hour from home. Business don't just grow themselves and people who didn't know him way back then didn't see his humble begining, all the work he put into making it happen. By the way, his father abandoned him and his mom when he was 2 so no privilege there.

People I know who "work hard" may not be millionaires but they are living comfortably. They are also very selective on how they spend their money, even though they could afford a higher standard of living. I don't know anyone working ridiculously hard and not getting anywhere or making progress. Maybe it's a regional thing. I know one person who has made a lifetime of stupid decisions and calls it bad luck or blames everyone else for her problems. I don't argue with her because there's no point.

 

[DCLMP]

e

I agree with you about mostly everything...but I think you're wrong about who the Dis members are. Yes there are a lot of people who go on and on about being able to afford anything and how they would be willing to pay extra in a deluxe for better pillows but they are the minority. Most people will not be talking about how little they can afford...but they will be on the Budget Board, or the threads talking about how to save $5 off a $50 gift card as if it's make or break for their vacation, or buying flights on points they got from buying other things (I'm in Canada...we're buying our flights on Airmiles, mostly from grocery shopping).

For more people it's about having a trip every 2 years or more, and unfortunately when the trips are few and far between there is more pressure to make them perfect...and that's why we're here. A lot of us will pay for the Fireworks Dessert Party unwillingly because it's the only way to see the fireworks without sitting and waiting for 3 hours of an expensive park day...because now there is only one fireworks show. they need to close earlier rather than extending park hours based on crowd levels, because they have to kick out the average guest so that Deluxe guests can have their exclusive time. But they don't get the second fireworks either...they got something extra, but they also lost everything that the rest of us lost.

I'm doing my PhD in economics and this is kind of sort of related to what I study. Yes the ticket prices from 1971 are comparable to today but I was there when there was only MK and I had to buy books of tickets...which were relatively cheap, so I also got a ton of souvenirs, mostly from PotC. I went on a school trip from Canada because growing up my parents couldn't afford to take us on trips outside the country. This is because they paid cash for every vacation, and every vacation was paid for out of disposable income...which we don't even talk about anymore because there is none for most people. When my parents got married they put a 30 percent downpayment on a house, they went out to watch a 15 piece band every weekend and my dad owned his own tux. People actually owned evening clothes, and even though my father was just a trumpet player in the army he went to see Louis Armstrong twice. There was no concert he couldn't afford to go to.

But air travel was a pure luxury and our trips were drive til you drop in a car that was paid for with cash, we ate homemade sandwiches in picnic parks along the way, and stayed in whatever hotel we found and paid with cash....all extra money. And my mother wasn't working. My elderly neighbours across the street paid off their first and only house in 10 years, then paid cash for everything after that...when they bought their house the guideline was a house should cost one year's salary.

Our economy has changed and Disney better figure out that the number of people who are willing to pay exorbitant amounts for once in a lifetime trips to Disneyworld is quickly dwindling. All trips are financed by debt except by the rich, even where people are paying in full and not paying off things like their house or their car. It has to feel like good value if you're going to be paying for it like forever. I'm seeing more and more articles about how they have priced themselves out of the budget of most families, and certainly the quality of the vacation has gone downhill extremely fast. Not only are they not the only resort in Florida, cheaper airfare means we can travel almost anywhere for less than a Disney trip...and in most cases the perks and services are beyond anything that Disney is now offering. Like it would cost them zero to allow resort guests to make an ADR for a busy counter service, it would make them more money to allow guests to ship purchases back to their resort, and Magical Express made certain that more guests stayed and paid in the bubble. Disney doesn't do these things anymore because they don't care about their guests. They don't care who comes to the parks or if they come back. They are just as happy having all retired people as guests, and could care less whether families with little kids can afford their hotels. I agree with every critical piece I've seen in the past month...they don't care about Walt's vision, just the money. Too bad they haven't figured out that Walt's idea of catering to ALL guests regardless of income level also made them lots and lots of money.

I think most people on here are upper class or older people that are set financially as far as no mortgage, kids etc. . It didn't used to be that way, but I feel like it is now. I wouldn't use this forum as a parameter for anything especially the economy. This forum is like a different reality in more ways than one.