DAS Outrage vs Genie Plus Outrage?

[raidermatt]

A partial solution that minimizes a problem is still an improvement even if it does not completely eradicate the problem. Prohibition led to an increase in organized crime and repealing prohibition led to a decrease in organized crime. In this case, the government brought organized crime to a more manageable level by repealing the law that led to more organized crime rather than spending more on enforcement alone. When there are legitimate routes for doing things, fewer people choose the illegitimate route.

If the statistics people are reporting are true, there are now 3 to 5 times more people using DAS than before free fastpass was removed. Some are of course legitimate users of DAS who may not have used it before but at least some of this is an increase in cheaters. If Disney goes back to free fastpass, a portion of cheaters will no longer cheat.

Disney chose to change enforcement. This does not mean there aren't other ways of addressing the cheating problem and it also doesn't mean that the cheating problem will be eliminated.

In terms of ADA compliance, it is required to have accomodations that make places accessible to people with disabilities. It is not required to exclude people without disabilities from using these. Volcano Bay in Orlando has everybody use a virtual queue system so there is no additional program for people with disabilities to bypass standby lines. This is ADA compliant.

Prohibition, lol.

We have no idea if the statistics are true. If true, you are merely citing correlation, not causation. For example, the impact of social media has also grown in that time, especially as more turned to those outlets during the pandemic. There are literally tutorials on how to cheat the system now widely available. If you really wanted to prove anything, or least show a stronger connection, you would need numbers going back further. You would need to analyze why things were so bad 10+ years ago when Disney developed DAS as a replacement for GAC, and why abuse was rampant then, when FP was free.

Look, G+ sucks. But it is not the cause of all evil in the world, and it certainly is not the cause of DAS/GAC cheating.

 

[nalababybear]

Time waiting is not time waiting and you know it. Given the choice to spend 60 minutes standing in a line or 60 minutes doing almost anything else we all know what 100% would choose. If "time waiting was time waiting", DAS would have no value.

The changes are about ensuring those qualified under the ADA can utilize a program compliant with the ADA, while limiting usage by those not qualified. No baby is being thrown out.

DAS absolutely has value in not waiting in a queue. It's not a choice for some, hence the accommodation.

You can talk about abuse and the need to match up needs more appropriately and that's what Disney is returning to like GAC was before with tiered accommodations to match the needs instead of a one size fits all DAS solution.

That's vastly different from your assertions of how DAS addresses the actual need of appropriate holders -- those holders in appropriate cases have no choice in the matter of queue or not to queue.

At the end the wait remains and people forget in their hurry to point out ability to optimize -- that it's actually longer waiting for the same ride experience.

 

[gelatoni fan]

Prohibition, lol.

We have no idea if the statistics are true. If true, you are merely citing correlation, not causation. For example, the impact of social media has also grown in that time, especially as more turned to those outlets during the pandemic. There are literally tutorials on how to cheat the system now widely available. If you really wanted to prove anything, or least show a stronger connection, you would need numbers going back further. You would need to analyze why things were so bad 10+ years ago when Disney developed DAS as a replacement for GAC, and why abuse was rampant then, when FP was free.

Look, G+ sucks. But it is not the cause of all evil in the world, and it certainly is not the cause of DAS/GAC cheating.

A cause of DAS cheating is that there is a benefit to using DAS and Disney wants to exclude people from using DAS. This type of cheating happens when you try to separate people into two different groups and there are desirable benefits for one group that the other group doesn't have. Another example of this phenomenon is that people will lie about the age of their children because it costs less to buy tickets when children are younger. Semantically, a difference in experience between two groups is a cause of cheating behavior.

Switching from free fastpass is to Genie+ is not a direct cause of cheating, but a cause of an increase in cheating behavior. The difference in experience between DAS users and non-users of DAS causes cheating but the amount of cheating will be affected by how much difference there is between these two experiences. Switching from GAC to DAS decreased the amount of difference between the experiences. Switching from free fastpass to Genie+ increased the amount of difference.

Saying that one thing is a cause of another thing also does not exclude multiple causes from being present. If I insert a key into a locked door and then turn the doorknob to open a door, both unlocking the door and turning the doorknob are causes of the door opening. You wouldn't say that turning the doorknob is not a cause of the door opening just because there was another factor involved.

There can also be multiple events leading up to an outcome, all of which are causes. So if two children got into a fight which caused one to fall down and get hurt, you can say that fighting led to the injury. It would be wrong to say that fighting didn't cause the injury because fighting caused the child to fall down which caused the injury. Now we can ask why are there more tutorials online now to cheat the system? I believe that at least some people made tutorials due to increased interest in DAS from Disney switching taking away free fastpass. You don't have to believe this but simply saying that more tutorials led to more cheating doesn't mean that switching from free fastpass to Genie+ didn't lead to more cheating.

So I agree that Genie+ is not the sole cause of DAS/GAC cheating. But I want to highlight that Disney switching from free fastpass to Genie+ is one factor of potentially many that increased DAS cheating behavior.

 

[raidermatt]

So I agree that Genie+ is not the sole cause of DAS/GAC cheating. But I want to highlight that Disney switching from free fastpass to Genie+ is one factor of potentially many that increased DAS cheating behavior.

Fair enough.

The distinction is important when talking about solutions.

 

[raidermatt]

DAS absolutely has value in not waiting in a queue. It's not a choice for some, hence the accommodation.

You can talk about abuse and the need to match up needs more appropriately and that's what Disney is returning to like GAC was before with tiered accommodations to match the needs instead of a one size fits all DAS solution.

That's vastly different from your assertions of how DAS addresses the actual need of appropriate holders -- those holders in appropriate cases have no choice in the matter of queue or not to queue.

At the end the wait remains and people forget in their hurry to point out ability to optimize -- that it's actually longer waiting for the same ride experience.

Never said it was a choice for those who legitimately need it.

An "appropriate user" is defined by Disney's policy. Since Disney determines this definition, that's where it ends. If they change the definition, the definition changes. They have a right and one could argue even a responsibility to do whatever they deem necessary to make the program run efficiently. As long as they are in compliance with the ADA, again, that's it, full stop.

Nobody is forgetting the time spent "waiting" is longer. Nobody CARES. It is irrelevant. Why? Because the vast majority of the time is not actually spent waiting. It is spent doing whatever else the person/group wants. Hence the value to both "appropriate users" and to cheaters. Feel free to again point out the time period is longer. It is of no value in arguing any relevant point.

 

[raidermatt]

I think the conclusion is fair: DAS cheaters want to maximize their time in the park without having to pay for it. They are the true recipients of what fast pass used to be.
Able bodied people, getting a return time allows for free time to watch a parade, ride a shorter lined ride, eat, meet a character etc.
When a valid recipient of DAS uses the program, they are waiting to ride and have limitations to multi-tasking their time like an able bodied person. So yes they do take breaks, have a snack etc. IMO, they absolutely have the right to go into a shorter line, meet a character or watch a parade as well, because their time most likely is limited in the first place based on their disability and the complexities that come along with it while traveling.

No reasonable person disputes this conclusion.

But if you ask 10 different people how exactly to fairly and efficiently make this happen, you will get 10 different answers. Plus, we are dealing with the legalities of the ADA.

Disney has been balancing the ADA with their efficiency for decades now. Circumstances change. Some due to Disney's own actions, some completely out of their control.

They are re-balancing again. There will still be a DAS program, and those legitimately covered by the ADA will still have access to use it. At the same time, cheating should be reduced. End of story.

Should Disney be shown to be out of compliance with the ADA, they will make changes. I'm just not betting against their lawyers at this point. But certainly anything is possible.

 

[nalababybear]

Never said it was a choice for those who legitimately need it.

An "appropriate user" is defined by Disney's policy. Since Disney determines this definition, that's where it ends. If they change the definition, the definition changes. They have a right and one could argue even a responsibility to do whatever they deem necessary to make the program run efficiently. As long as they are in compliance with the ADA, again, that's it, full stop.

Nobody is forgetting the time spent "waiting" is longer. Nobody CARES. It is irrelevant. Why? Because the vast majority of the time is not actually spent waiting. It is spent doing whatever else the person/group wants. Hence the value to both "appropriate users" and to cheaters. Feel free to again point out the time period is longer. It is of no value in arguing any relevant point.

Trying to understand what vexes you.

You say Disney determines DAS and those who qualifies, end of story. Yet you say otherwise.

 

[raidermatt]

Trying to understand what vexes you.

You say Disney determines DAS and those who qualifies, end of story. Yet you say otherwise.

Not vexed at all. That is the end of the story. Except of course for any legal issues, which is a caveat in every issue known to man.

But yes, I know, the wait time is longer.

 

[nalababybear]

Not vexed at all. That is the end of the story. Except of course for any legal issues, which is a caveat in every issue known to man.

But yes, I know, the wait time is longer.

Glad you acknowledge it.

 

[GatorChris]

I'm late to the party. But my hate for Genie+ is matched only by my hate for the elimination of Splash Mt. It seems Disney has Cov*d brains to be making all of these dumb decisions.

One thing I loved about Disney for decades was that once you walked in the gates, everyone rich and poor were on equal footing inside the parks. But slowly, they started adding things like extra hard ticket parties, and then the only way you could see F! in any good place was to buy an already overpriced dinner for even more $$$, and finally G+ was the big kahuna. For $30/day, $150/day for a family of 5, you can skip all those other poor slobs who can't afford to do that (or just won't spend the money).

It's THE reason we haven't been back since 2022. And as much as I miss a lot about Disneyland, it'll be a while before we return. As for the DAS, a handful of people might break the rules and sneak by. But it's absolutely nothing compared to the travesty Disney unleashed on us with Diaper Genie+.

 

[Kit Jackson]

@GatorChris I think I agree with you.

The problem with Genie+ is basically its existence. It's a more expensive, more complicated, and inferior version of MaxPass.

The problem with DAS isn't that system exists but that people are cheating, or taking unfair advantage of it (using it when they shouldn't), or lying and using it when they are not eligible.

 

[nalababybear]

@GatorChris I think I agree with you.

The problem with Genie+ is basically its existence. It's a more expensive, more complicated, and inferior version of MaxPass.

The problem with DAS isn't that system exists but that people are cheating, or taking unfair advantage of it (using it when they shouldn't), or lying and using it when they are not eligible.

Agrees Disney broke dlr when max pass was working well already....just increase the cost if they wanted to monetize more.

Das enforcement hopefully coming with the revamp and offering suitable accommodations to those in need.

 

[dcfromva]

Last time Mom was at Disneyland she did not ask for a DAS pass in advance, but I think they gave her one after she couldn't get on the Jungle Cruise. She is 91 years old and needs to use an electric scooter to get around due to limited mobility. There are several attractions that she could not access (Finding Nemo submarine voyage, Sleeping Beauty Castle walk through) and some attractions that she had to remain in the scooter-(Jungle Cruise and the train). She could access Its a small world by transferring to a wheel chair. There are many attractions which she would not go on due to motion sickness and/or G-forces. I've always been impressed with Disney making most attractions available to everyone. But, even with accommodations it is just difficult. For example, on the aforementioned boat rides-there was only one boat (as far as I could tell) that was outfitted with the accomodations she needed. So, in addition to a come back time, then waiting in a line she then had to be moved to the side until the specially outfitted boat came along. On the train, there was one car at the back. On one evening we waited for 4 trains (and could not get on) until we just gave up because Mom was not the only one who needed accomodations and they just had the one train car. (She can not climb up the step to get onto the train. )

Obviously, Mom did not get to go on many attractions. I don't know if Mom will have many more trips to Disneyland, but I don't think Genie+ would solve Mom's accessibility issues no matter how much it costs.

 

[nalababybear]

Last time Mom was at Disneyland she did not ask for a DAS pass in advance, but I think they gave her one after she couldn't get on the Jungle Cruise. She is 91 years old and needs to use an electric scooter to get around due to limited mobility. There are several attractions that she could not access (Finding Nemo submarine voyage, Sleeping Beauty Castle walk through) and some attractions that she had to remain in the scooter-(Jungle Cruise and the train). She could access Its a small world by transferring to a wheel chair. There are many attractions which she would not go on due to motion sickness and/or G-forces. I've always been impressed with Disney making most attractions available to everyone. But, even with accommodations it is just difficult. For example, on the aforementioned boat rides-there was only one boat (as far as I could tell) that was outfitted with the accomodations she needed. So, in addition to a come back time, then waiting in a line she then had to be moved to the side until the specially outfitted boat came along. On the train, there was one car at the back. On one evening we waited for 4 trains (and could not get on) until we just gave up because Mom was not the only one who needed accomodations and they just had the one train car. (She can not climb up the step to get onto the train. )

Obviously, Mom did not get to go on many attractions. I don't know if Mom will have many more trips to Disneyland, but I don't think Genie+ would solve Mom's accessibility issues no matter how much it costs.

Our father in law age 92 yo travel with us to WDW last year with DS with DAS. That was a lot of fun. He was able to transfer from ECV to many rides -- even Frozen's two steps down. CMs were amazing on the assist and patient. His highlight was ratatouille for sure.

 

[greeneyedchick]

“The second problem is the ability to do other things while waiting on the return time. Disney surely could incorporate a rule into its DAS technology/MDE app that cancels return times if anyone in the group picks up a mobile order, checks into a dining reservation, uses an ILL, exits the park, purchases something, etc. - things you can't do in line. That would remove virtually all of the inequities.” I don’t understand this reasoning at all. And I don’t see Disney going for it. They want you spending money elsewhere, whether that’s ILL, food, etc.

Keep in mind that some of the people that have DAS are diabetic. Perhaps they needed food. Being able to eat food while waiting is something Disney is accomodating. Or maybe the person has issues with heat and is hanging out in a store with AC to keep cool.

 

[BriannaRuth]

I just have to say that I'm impressed with the 90+ year-olds at DL and hope to be in good enough shape to do that when I'm that age!

 

[Lumpy1106]

Paid line-cutting at airports? Maybe not much longer;
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/22/california-bill-to-ban-clear-00153447
FWIW - the only airport I've ever considered using this at is SEA - that TSA line is AWFUL and is every time we go through there! JFK was bad too but once we got to the front we saw that was just incompetence on the part of the TSA agents. One agent kept pulling bags off for secondary screening and there wasn't an agent to actually do the screening (they'd gone on break?). Everywhere else I've always found the TSA agents to be about as courteous and efficient as you could ever expect.

 

[irlandaise]

Paid line-cutting at airports? Maybe not much longer;
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/22/california-bill-to-ban-clear-00153447
FWIW - the only airport I've ever considered using this at is SEA - that TSA line is AWFUL and is every time we go through there! JFK was bad too but once we got to the front we saw that was just incompetence on the part of the TSA agents. One agent kept pulling bags off for secondary screening and there wasn't an agent to actually do the screening (they'd gone on break?). Everywhere else I've always found the TSA agents to be about as courteous and efficient as you could ever expect.

Sorry, I know we're drifting off-topic here, but since this thread hasn't had much activity lately, hopefully topic drift isn't too annoying.

I didn't realize that airlines got some revenue from CLEAR. I thought this was just an arrangement between the TSA and CLEAR.

This part doesn't make sense:

The Chamber of Commerce, TechNet and a coalition of other powerful industry groups also came out against the bill, citing government overreach and the potential harm to California’s image as a tourism hub if it is the only state in the nation to ban CLEAR.

It ain't tourists who are using CLEAR. Although, people who can't use CLEAR when travelling home from California may get miffed and not want to take their families to California for vacations. Seems like an edge case, though. How many parents are going to say, "No, Sally and Johnny, we can't go to Disneyland because Daddy is mad at the airports in California"?

 

[MonocularVision]

It ain't tourists who are using CLEAR. Although, people who can't use CLEAR when travelling home from California may get miffed and not want to take their families to California for vacations. Seems like an edge case, though. How many parents are going to say, "No, Sally and Johnny, we can't go to Disneyland because Daddy is mad at the airports in California"?

The problem with these sorts of bills is not that they become singularly responsible for ending tourism in CA. But collectively, there are actions that California has taken and could take that generally put a damper on personal tourism and other business travel.

Imagine you are organizing a conference for generic “business people” and need to choose a location. Based on all other factors, you have come down to choosing between a location in CA and one outside. You know that least some of those folks who could or will attend are going to get upset at not getting to use the benefit either they or their business paid for. Does it end up causing the loss of that conference? Who knows. But compounded with other factors it could play a role.

People often underestimate the downsides of government action and only focus on what the supporters of the law intend for the law to do.

 

[NorCalFanatic]

The bill would only make Clear use their own security line instead of TSA. Sounds good to me.

“It would require third-party vendors like CLEAR to get their own dedicated security lane or lose the ability to operate in California airports”