BWV Standard view

[Sandisw]

His plan still allows unlimited modifications. The modification to move the initial check-in date more than 14 days into the future would simply require a brand new booking.

It's still being modified, just changing the way you are allowed to achieve that modification.

Basically, it’s a requirement to cancel and rebook if you want to move a check in date more than 14 days in the future.

That can only work if that becomes the rule for all reservations and not just the ones at 11 months.

And I just don’t see many owners who would want to lose that flexibility when there are times when dropping the dates of a reservation need to happen

I think there are more owners than some realize who have a need to and adjust trip dates outside of walking.

Plus ,it might lead to owners who have the points to keeping dates they don’t need, preventing other owners from having them, because they can’t shorten a trip.

I can’t see DVC wanting to implement that penalty.

 

[tx911]

Basically, it’s a requirement to cancel and rebook if you want to move a check in date more than 14 days in the future.

That can only work if that becomes the rule for all reservations and not just the ones at 11 months.

And I just don’t see many owners who would want to lose that flexibility when there are times when dropping the dates of a reservation need to happen

I think there are more owners than some realize who have a need to and adjust trip dates outside of walking.

How about if your check-in day moved more than 14 days into the future AND you had made 4 or more modifications? Both criteria needing to be satisfied before you are forced into a new reservation?

I can't fathom that realistically affecting anyone but walkers, and if there were some bizarre circumstance where it did, it would be worth the minor inconvenience to the general membership 0.00001% of the time to curtail walking.

 

[Tatebeck]

The rules say you can book any room 11 months plus 7, yes, but the rules do not prohibit owners for modifying reservations they have already made to new dates as long as they are following the 11 plus 7.

So, the system is working as designed. In terms of holding, that works because the system is seeing your currently booked trip as new and lets you swap…even if those rooms are no longer available.

These have been great discussions and probably the biggest piece it highlights is that making booking rules with the sole purpose of preventing walking is not easy.

The simplist and best solution if owners really want things changed is cancel and rebook all, or day by day booking.

But the key is that there is no guarantee in the rules and regulations that the pre-booked room you have reserved will be available for any modifications past the original dates that you select in the 11+7 window. Only that you will have the same availability at 11+7 as the rest of the members trying to book new reservations. That is why they can take rooms out of inventory for maintenance etc ahead of time and interrupt walks. This would be similar.

Just making that single room temporarily unavailable in your modification past a certain date would go a long way towards fixing walking with minimal side effects (except for those walking a lot of reservations)

 

[Tatebeck]

That can only work if that becomes the rule for all reservations and not just the ones at 11 months.

It can also work if it's affecting rooms ahead of the 11+7 window, which is what it would be doing. Setting a temporary notice to not show that date as available for check-in not just everyone else, but also the original booker, for a certain date.

 

[Sandisw]

How about if your check-in day moved more than 14 days into the future AND you had made 4 or more modifications? Both criteria needing to be satisfied before you are forced into a new reservation?

I can't fathom that realistically affecting anyone but walkers, and if there were some bizarre circumstance where it did, it would be worth the minor inconvenience to the general membership 0.00001% of the time to curtail walking.

For me, rules need to be consistent and easy to understand and apply. And they should be based in the membership as whole and for not for a specific activity that may not be an issue 95% of the times. rooms, etc.

The rules need to make sense for the membership as a whole and not have some very complicated situations for DVC to monitor to stop the small % of owners who might be doing something that is allowed, even if the spirit of it is off base.

Like I said, I am looking at the actions outside of walking. Switching dates is switching dates.

It should not matter why…we are allowed or we are not.

So, I get trying to have a situation that won’t catch an owner other than a walker, it might. And, if there are owners not walking who could be caught up in the rule, then it’s not worth it.

DVC has the ability to curb walking, if they believe it’s impact on the membership as a whole is great, by doing the things I already mentioned.

But I would be surprised to see owners get behind them. So, I will always be on the side of keeping the program flexible with no type of penalty outside of 31 days…even if it means we deal with walking.

For BWV SV, the best solution is really a change to the point charts or setting up the seasons list. Then you don’t even need to have to worry about how many changes one can make, etc.

One thing I know for sure is that DVC will take the path of least resistance and keep changes simple and clean, that apply to all situations for they can enforce those new rules with ease.

 

[Sandisw]

But the key is that there is no guarantee in the rules and regulations that the pre-booked room you have reserved will be available for any modifications past the original dates that you select in the 11+7 window. Only that you will have the same availability at 11+7 as the rest of the members trying to book new reservations. That is why they can take rooms out of inventory for maintenance etc ahead of time and interrupt walks. This would be similar.

Just making that single room temporarily unavailable in your modification past a certain date would go a long way towards fixing walking with minimal side effects (except for those walking a lot of reservations)

Correct… we are not guaranteed anything and it needs to be there when booking opens for us to get it.

However, DVC can’t take a room out of inventory except under certain situations.

Those reasons are service, rehab, and anticipation of breakage based on trends.

Outside of that, they can’t block a room that is otherwise available to another owner.

Tha is why I think the allowing of modifications up to a certain point and then not allowing them wouldn’t mesh with that rule.

If I can grab the room through modification to extend as long as I don’t change my initial date but can’t book it, even if it is there, because I want to change my start date, then I am being blocked from booking something that I am entitled to book since it’s there.

ETA:: Let me put it into your example.

I booked Oct 1st to 8th and move it forward to October 15th to 22nd.

I decide I want to book the 23rd…it’s there…as long as I keep my start date of Oct 15th, I get the room…since I am extending.

But, if I change my start date to the 16th, it blocks me from the room, even though it’s still available.
So, I am being kept from that room for a reason other than actual availability.

I admit…it’s hard to try to come up with something that balances the rules and preventing walking at the same time, and still ensure that the contract terms are being met.

 

[Tatebeck]

Correct… we are not guaranteed anything and it needs to be there when booking opens for us to get it.

However, DVC can’t take a room out of inventory except under certain situations.

Those reasons are service, rehab, and anticipation of breakage based on trends.

Outside of that, they can’t block a room that is otherwise available to another owner.

Tha is why I think the allowing of modifications up to a certain point and then not allowing them wouldn’t mesh with that rule.

If I can grab the room through modification to extend as long as I don’t change my initial date but can’t book it, even if it is there, because I want to change my start date, then I am being blocked from booking something that I am entitled to book since it’s there.

I admit…it’s hard to try to come up with something that balances the rules and preventing walking at the same time, and still ensure that the contract terms are being met.

It wouldn't really be taking the room out of inventory, it would just kind of look like it to the person modifying it. After a certain date, the system would just be showing them the true DVC inventory that everyone else sees, like a new reservation. Then once they are done deciding and modifying their reservation or the room is available again as the 11+7 moves forward it shows up for everyone. (Also does breakage of the letter and spirit of the rules and regulations count as a reason? lol. I'm only kidding of course, I know it's not that kind of breakage)

I guess one of the things I dislike is that modifying ahead into the 11+7 aka walking is just so different than a normal modification. For a normal modification, say from 11 months out to 10 months out, there was no room saved for part of the new dates, you saw the exact same room availability as everyone else, without an extra room able to be booked for additional days. That modification would truly be like a cancel and rebook. You get to hold an extra room hostage while modifying forward constantly into the 11+7 and walking it. If you want all modifications to be treated the same, you should also want them to fix walking.

I guess the only foolproof way may be to not allow modifying at all in the 11+7, only new bookings. and then allow modifying anything 11 months and under

 

[Sandisw]

It wouldn't really be taking the room out of inventory, it would just kind of look like it to the person modifying it. After a certain date, the system would just be showing them the true DVC inventory that everyone else sees, like a new reservation. Then once they are done deciding and modifying their reservation or the room is available again as the 11+7 moves forward it shows up for everyone. (Also does breakage of the letter and spirit of the rules and regulations count as a reason? lol. I'm only kidding of course, I know it's not that kind of breakage)

I guess one of the things I dislike is that modifying ahead into the 11+7 aka walking is just so different than a normal modification. For a normal modification, say from 11 months out to 10 months out, there was no room saved, you saw the exact same room availability as everyone else, without an extra room able to be booked for additional days. You get to hold an extra room hostage while modifying forward constantly into the 11+7 and walking it. If you want all modifications to be treated the same, you should also want them to fix walking.

If it’s available for other owners to book, then they can’t pretend it’s not there for a different owner. That is in direct conflict of the FCFS rule.

Blocking it out for me because I already modified my reservation too many times, when it is there for someone else to book it is simply not allowed

Every owner has to be allowed to book any room that is still open in inventory. The only reasons we can be prevented from booking a room is if it is booked by another owner first or if DVC removed it from booking for everyone.

They can’t make it look likes it is gone when in fact it is actuall available. Basically, those modifying reservations can’t have a different availability calendar than those that are booking a new reservation.

While I agree that modifications for walking are done for a different reason than other situations, one can’t add context to rules that would now treat owners of a home resort differently because of the intent of what they are doing.

So, whether an owner is walking or changing because they had a change in flights a few weeks after booking, both have to be given the same rules

So, right now, all modifications rules are the same. You can change dates at will.

The difference in my thinking is I am taking reason a out of it.

Walking works bexaise we enjoy flexible booking rules. I prefer that over stricter ones

The problem with having one rule for 11 plus 7 bookings and not for others is that it’s easy to find ways around it, not to mention, creating tiers of booking that get complicated.

Which is why I keep coming back to not allowing modifications at all and make all changes of dates a cancel/rebook.

ETA: Here is why I am indifferent to walking. If demand is not exceeding supply, then even if rooms are walked, they show back up and those owners that want them get them.

Yes, it means using a waitlist and going on and maybe grabbing as walkers drop, but I’d rather deal with that than stricter rules for changing dates.

 

[Tatebeck]

If it’s available for other owners to book, then they can’t pretend it’s not there for a different owner. That is in direct conflict of the FCFS rule.

Blocking it out for me because I already modified my reservation too many times, when it is there for someone else to book it is simply not allowed

Every owner has to be allowed to book any room that is still open in inventory. The only reasons we can be prevented from booking a room is if it is booked by another owner first or if DVC removed it from booking for everyone.

They can’t make it look likes it is gone when in fact it is actuall available. Basically, those modifying reservations can’t have a different availability calendar than those that are booking a new reservation.

While I agree that modifications for walking are done for a different reason than other situations, one can’t add context to rules that would now treat owners of a home resort differently because of the intent of what they are doing.

So, whether an owner is walking or changing because they had a change in flights a few weeks after booking, both have to be given the same rules

The problem with having one rule for 11 plus 7 bookings and not for others is that it’s easy to find ways around it, not to mention, creating tiers of booking that get complicated.

Which is why I keep coming back to not allowing modifications at all and make all changes of dates a cancel/rebook.

It wouldn't be there for any other owners either. It would just show you the true availability everyone else sees and it would be greyed out for everyone until it was eligible for everyone under normal 11+7 rules as a check-in date, then it would show as available for everyone. True FCFS 11+7

And again any reason for the walking wouldn't matter. It would apply to all reservations the same. It's not judging intent. It's not going to ask you why you are trying to modify it so far into the future, it's simply just not going to let you do it.

 

[Sandisw]

It wouldn't be there for any other owners either. It would just show you the true availability everyone else sees and it would be greyed out for everyone until it was eligible under normal 11+7 rules as a check-in date

And again any reason for the walking wouldn't matter. It would apply to all reservations the same. It's not going to ask you why you are trying to modify it so far into the future, it's simply just not going to let you do it.

If it is greyed out for everyone, then it’s not within the 11 plus 7 window.

But, every day a new day opens up…so, using my example, if I have moved a from from starting October 1st to 15rh and now have 15th to 22nd, and now wanted to move it to the 16th to the 23rd. On the 16th, the 23rd is in the 11 plus 7 window now, isn’t it?

Maybe I misunderstood but you said that once the start date is a trip was moved forward 14 days, you could now longer modify that trip and change that start date without canceling it?

 

[Tatebeck]

If it is greyed out for everyone, then it’s not within the 11 plus 7 window.

But, every day a new day opens up…so, using my example, if I have moved a from from starting October 1st to 15rh and now have 15th to 22nd, and now wanted to move it to the 16th to the 23rd. On the 16th, the 23rd is in the 11 plus 7 window now, isn’t it?

Maybe I misunderstood but you said that once the start date is a trip was moved forward 14 days, you could now longer modify that trip and change that start date without canceling it?

So, if I have done my 14 day move, to 15th to the 22nd, that trip can only be extended…but I can’t move it again to the 16th to 23rd, even though on the 16th, the 23rd is now in the window.

That desired check-in date (Oct 16th) would be within 11months+7 days of people booking new reservations, but not within 11months+7 days of your original desired check-in date when you made the original reservation, so that specific room was never guaranteed as available for that check-in date for you according to Rules and Regs. (It would start greyed out completely as it was over 7 days into the window when you made the original reservation, and it would stay greyed out only as a starting date the entire time, but would show up as available for a middle or ending date)

You would only be able to book the 16th as a check in day if you modified to a different available room type (or the same room type had availability as a new booking for anyone) from the 16th to the 23rd. You would still be able to continue extending the stay starting on the 15th up to the max of 30 days. So with your captive room, you could do 15th-23rd, but not 16th-23rd. The 23rd isn't an issue, its the check-in date that matters, just like in Rules and Regs.

When modifying it would show only the true availability to change to and your already secured single room stay, but not allow you to move the start date of that secured single room further into the 11+7 anymore. Only allowing you to add or remove days from the tail end. Trying to select the 16th as a starting day would just say not available for your single captive room, depending on other rooms to be available to modify to this new check-in date.

The specific room that you had previously secured would show up as unavailable for everyone else as well until the day of your check-out is within 11+7 for all booking members, then it would show up according to normal rules for all members. Or until you cancel the reservation, then all the days would show up for everyone

 

[Sandisw]

That desired check-in date (Oct 16th) would be within 11months+7 days of people booking new reservations, but not within 11months+7 days of your original desired check-in date when you made the original reservation, so it was never guaranteed as an available check-in date for you according to Rules and Regs.

You would only be able to book the 16th as a check in day if you modified to a different available room type (or the same room type had availability as a new booking for anyone) from the 16th to the 23rd. You would still be able to continue extending the stay up to the max of 30 days.

When modifying it would show only the true availability to change to and your already secured single room stay, but not allow you to move the start date of that secured single room further into the 11+7 anymore.

The specific room that you had previously secured would show up as unavailable for everyone else as well until the day of your check-out is within 11+7 for all booking members, then it would show up for all members. Or until you cancel the reservation, then all the days would show up for everyone

Okay, I think i see where I believe it goes off track. When the rules state that you are not guaranteed anything unless it still there, that is based on when the actual booking for that open, not based on what you may have already booked.

When an original booking started and how many times it has been modified does not take away an owner’s right to book any other night when that night falls within the 11 plus 7 rule.

As long as we have the plus 7 ability…which DVC can absolutely change..then we have to have the opportunity to snag any open room within the 7 days when it first becomes available.

Don’t forget, the booking window for any night actually opens 7 days earlier because of the plus 7 rule.

If I want to snag October 16th. I can snag that as part of a reservation that starts as early as the 9th.

So, if I open my reservation to modify and shift, I am allowed to do that as long as the nights I want to shift to beyond what I have booked are there

Now, they can stop all shifting by not allowing modifications to trips. That I agree with. But, once you allow any level of shifting, you have to allow all of them.

DVC could implement a rule that you can only add days but not drop without a cancel and rebook…but they can’t make that rule for only the 11 month window.

So, if modification is allowed, then the calendar availability has to reflect what the owner currently has booked as well as any availability for rooms, no matter room type that are open for booking within the 11 plus 7 window from the day of modification.

Basically, modifications have no bearing on what rooms an owner would be allowed to see as open and bookable as long as the new dates they modify to are within the 11 plus 7 window for the day the modification is made.

While I know that having a no modification rule is not what you really would want to see happen and trying to come up with other ideas but realistically. it is probably one of the very few ways DVC can do to prevent walking.

 

[Tatebeck]

Okay, I think i see where I believe it goes off track. When the rules state that you are not guaranteed anything unless it still there, that is based on when the actual booking for that open, not based on what you may have already booked.

When an original booking started and how many times it has been modified has no bearing that an owner’s right to book any night when that night falls within the 11 plus 7 rule.

As long as we have the plus 7 ability…which DVC can absolutely change..then we have to have the opportunity to snag any open room within the 7 days when it first becomes available.

So, if I open my reservation to modify and shift, I am allowed to do that as long as the nights I want to shift to beyond what I have booked are there

Now, they can stop all shifting by not allowing modifications to trips. That I agree with. But, once you allow any level of shifting, you have to allow all of them.

DVC could implement a rule that you can only add days but not drop without a cancel and rebook…but they can’t make that rule for only the 11 month window.

So, if modification is allowed, then the calendar availability has to reflect what the owner currently has booked as well as any availability for rooms, no matter room type that are open for booking within the 11 plus 7 window from the day of modification.

Basically, what modifications have no bearing on what rooms an owner would be allowed to see as open and bookable.

It actually does matter when it is made. Making is not the same as modifying or changing. They specifically mention making a reservation, and then later mention changing or cancelling a reservation. They are different things according to the Rules and Regs.

"make a reservation online via the DVC Website no earlier than eleven (11) months prior to the desired check in day for a reservation of up to seven (7) consecutive days after the desired check in day"

then later it talks about changing and cancelling in section 12

"12. Cancellations and Changes to Confirmed Reservations."

Where it does NOT guarantee anything regarding 11+7 when CHANGING a reservation, it only does when MAKING a reservation

It says you are only guaranteed the ability to MAKE a reservation for a desired check-in date at 11 months + 7 days. It does NOT guarantee a CHANGE on the reservation for the same room for a different check-in date, even if you had the exact same room previously

The point would be that the system marks that specific room you are holding captive as temporarily unavailable for a check-in date 11+8 or 11+15 days away as soon as you make the original 11+7 reservation. It never shows up as available for a check-in date. Until it shows up for everyone.

It doesn't matter that it is within the 11+7 window now as it is (and always was) unavailable for a check-in date.

The way they handle modifications/changes right now is basically an instantaneous cancel and rebook without allowing the room back into the true inventory. But it is still fundamentally different than a new booking, and the rules and regulations do not require them to hold the room like they currently do during a modification. If that start date is not available to book, then it's not available to book. You can cancel and try to rebook when it those dates are added back into the true inventory, or book something else.

Them making rooms available for new bookings only and not changes/modifications is 100% okay according to the Rules and Regs that I can see.