# Idea to improve DAS



## cmwade77

I had made a passing comment on the official thread. SueMN suggested that if we wanted further discussion on it, that it should posted on a new thread. I wasn't planning on doing so, but I have had some people contact me and ask me to do so. 

Here is my thought:
Eliminate return times
Instead what would happen is you would present your DAS to the first CM you see at each attraction. They would write the date,  atttraction name, arrival time, current wait time and the next valid time. The next valid time would be the current time plus the current wait time. You would then proceed to go on that ride. After that ride, you would need to wait for the next valid time to go on another ride with the pass. 

For example, at noon I go to Space Mountain, it is the first ride I am doing that day. There is a 60 minute wait. They would write that I arrived at noon and the next valid time will be at 1.

By the time I am off it is 12:30, so I need to chill for 30 minutes, then ride say Buzz with a wait of 30 minutes. The next ride would be available at 1:30. this would continue on throughout the day. You still wait your fair turn, but this system accounts for the waiting you do at each attraction, eliminates the need for backtracking, by the nature of how the queues work would space out those who need assistance and at Disneyland eliminate the need for kiosks, providing for substantial labor cost savings. I would think it would also help with the issues we are hearing about with those with Autism and the like. 

Now one thing that would be needed with this system is for everyone, including mobility only issues that are addressed with a wheelchair or ECV to have a DAS in order to keep the system fair for all. 

This is the basic system that has been in user at Universal Studios Hollywood for a while now and last time I wad there sea world San Diego had switched to it as well. USH actually scans passes instead of writing on them, but the principle ins the same.

Yes, one could creatively use FP to reduce wait times, but one can do the same with the return times now. 

The point of this is if you think this system would work better to please write Disney and let them know. Based on my experiences with the other parks and the return times, I think the system I describe here works better. You still are waiting, you just ate waiting after the ride. Yes, that means you may wait less for the first attraction, but you most likely spent a decent amount of time getting the DAS, which means it most likely evens out. At least that's the theory the other parks use.


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## CaraMiaBelle

cmwade77 said:


> I had made a passing comment on the official thread. SueMN suggested that if we wanted further discussion on it, that it should posted on a new thread. I wasn't planning on doing so, but I have had some people contact me and ask me to do so.
> 
> Here is my thought:
> Eliminate return times
> Instead what would happen is you would present your DAS to the first CM you see at each attraction. They would write the date,  atttraction name, arrival time, current wait time and the next valid time. The next valid time would be the current time plus the current wait time. You would then proceed to go on that ride. After that ride, you would need to wait for the next valid time to go on another ride with the pass.
> 
> For example, at noon I go to Space Mountain, it is the first ride I am doing that day. There is a 60 minute wait. They would write that I arrived at noon and the next valid time will be at 1.
> 
> By the time I am off it is 12:30, so I need to chill for 30 minutes, then ride say Buzz with a wait of 30 minutes. The next ride would be available at 1:30. this would continue on throughout the day. You still wait your fair turn, but this system accounts for the waiting you do at each attraction, eliminates the need for backtracking, by the nature of how the queues work would space out those who need assistance and at Disneyland eliminate the need for kiosks, providing for substantial labor cost savings. I would think it would also help with the issues we are hearing about with those with Autism and the like.
> 
> Now one thing that would be needed with this system is for everyone, including mobility only issues that are addressed with a wheelchair or ECV to have a DAS in order to keep the system fair for all.
> 
> This is the basic system that has been in user at Universal Studios Hollywood for a while now and last time I wad there sea world San Diego had switched to it as well. USH actually scans passes instead of writing on them, but the principle ins the same.
> 
> Yes, one could creatively use FP to reduce wait times, but one can do the same with the return times now.
> 
> The point of this is if you think this system would work better to please write Disney and let them know. Based on my experiences with the other parks and the return times, I think the system I describe here works better. You still are waiting, you just ate waiting after the ride. Yes, that means you may wait less for the first attraction, but you most likely spent a decent amount of time getting the DAS, which means it most likely evens out. At least that's the theory the other parks use.



Interesting idea! Sounds like it would work for me!


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## disney david

cmwade77 said:


> I had made a passing comment on the official thread. SueMN suggested that if we wanted further discussion on it, that it should posted on a new thread. I wasn't planning on doing so, but I have had some people contact me and ask me to do so.
> 
> Here is my thought:
> Eliminate return times
> Instead what would happen is you would present your DAS to the first CM you see at each attraction. They would write the date,  atttraction name, arrival time, current wait time and the next valid time. The next valid time would be the current time plus the current wait time. You would then proceed to go on that ride. After that ride, you would need to wait for the next valid time to go on another ride with the pass.
> 
> For example, at noon I go to Space Mountain, it is the first ride I am doing that day. There is a 60 minute wait. They would write that I arrived at noon and the next valid time will be at 1.
> 
> By the time I am off it is 12:30, so I need to chill for 30 minutes, then ride say Buzz with a wait of 30 minutes. The next ride would be available at 1:30. this would continue on throughout the day. You still wait your fair turn, but this system accounts for the waiting you do at each attraction, eliminates the need for backtracking, by the nature of how the queues work would space out those who need assistance and at Disneyland eliminate the need for kiosks, providing for substantial labor cost savings. I would think it would also help with the issues we are hearing about with those with Autism and the like.
> 
> Now one thing that would be needed with this system is for everyone, including mobility only issues that are addressed with a wheelchair or ECV to have a DAS in order to keep the system fair for all.
> 
> This is the basic system that has been in user at Universal Studios Hollywood for a while now and last time I wad there sea world San Diego had switched to it as well. USH actually scans passes instead of writing on them, but the principle ins the same.
> 
> Yes, one could creatively use FP to reduce wait times, but one can do the same with the return times now.
> 
> The point of this is if you think this system would work better to please write Disney and let them know. Based on my experiences with the other parks and the return times, I think the system I describe here works better. You still are waiting, you just ate waiting after the ride. Yes, that means you may wait less for the first attraction, but you most likely spent a decent amount of time getting the DAS, which means it most likely evens out. At least that's the theory the other parks use.



Good idea to start another thread but if universal Orlando and sea world in Orlando dose the same thing who should Disney try to compete with. Ones in Orlando get more visitor per year so I have to say to with them. 

I like your plan but what happens if you change your mind would you start over again. Or would it be just to Jamie to that attraction even if that one has a longer stand by time. 

Or if you pick the ride you now will have the shortest wait to on bag then be able to go on the other quicker. Would you have let's say pick the one with the longer stand by time. 

I also think they should Taylor it to each  coast stuff that might work in wdw might not work in dl. 

I think in wdw once they roll out fast pass plus and then focus on putting RFID in the das. And start using computer kiosk it save money and might help. Because know they could put them more places without needing that many cms and have some central locations for more help. 

Then they can have a handled devices so just in case the ride breaks they can switch you to another ride instead making you wait again.


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## curemyreed

cmwade77 said:


> I had made a passing comment on the official thread. SueMN suggested that if we wanted further discussion on it, that it should posted on a new thread. I wasn't planning on doing so, but I have had some people contact me and ask me to do so.
> 
> Here is my thought:
> Eliminate return times
> Instead what would happen is you would present your DAS to the first CM you see at each attraction. They would write the date,  atttraction name, arrival time, current wait time and the next valid time. The next valid time would be the current time plus the current wait time. You would then proceed to go on that ride. After that ride, you would need to wait for the next valid time to go on another ride with the pass.
> 
> For example, at noon I go to Space Mountain, it is the first ride I am doing that day. There is a 60 minute wait. They would write that I arrived at noon and the next valid time will be at 1.
> 
> By the time I am off it is 12:30, so I need to chill for 30 minutes, then ride say Buzz with a wait of 30 minutes. The next ride would be available at 1:30. this would continue on throughout the day. You still wait your fair turn, but this system accounts for the waiting you do at each attraction, eliminates the need for backtracking, by the nature of how the queues work would space out those who need assistance and at Disneyland eliminate the need for kiosks, providing for substantial labor cost savings. I would think it would also help with the issues we are hearing about with those with Autism and the like.
> 
> Now one thing that would be needed with this system is for everyone, including mobility only issues that are addressed with a wheelchair or ECV to have a DAS in order to keep the system fair for all.
> 
> This is the basic system that has been in user at Universal Studios Hollywood for a while now and last time I wad there sea world San Diego had switched to it as well. USH actually scans passes instead of writing on them, but the principle ins the same.
> 
> Yes, one could creatively use FP to reduce wait times, but one can do the same with the return times now.
> 
> The point of this is if you think this system would work better to please write Disney and let them know. Based on my experiences with the other parks and the return times, I think the system I describe here works better. You still are waiting, you just ate waiting after the ride. Yes, that means you may wait less for the first attraction, but you most likely spent a decent amount of time getting the DAS, which means it most likely evens out. At least that's the theory the other parks use.



I'm confused. I don't know how to pull out individual quotes...sorry. You say in the Space Mountain example that you arrive at noon, there is a 60 minute wait, and the valid return time would be 1:00. Then you say you are done riding at 12:30. How is that possible? You would not be allowed into the non-standby line before 1:00 in the example. Maybe I am missing something?


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## Chickenlady

I guess I'm confused as to how this works.  Guests using this would have a great advantage versus regular guests.  Nobody can be riding a ride and standing in line at the same time.  First, you get on Splash with no wait, then you only have a 30 min,. wait until your next ride (which would be Pooh). By the time you get over to Pooh, your 30 min. are up and you haven't waited at all.  Might sound nice for people who have a DAS and can't wait in line, but is very much like the unlimited fastpass that was the old GAC.  At least with the way things work now with the DAS, everyone waits, just not in the same place.


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## Mel*Pie

I just want to say that I think this is a great idea. How can we suggest this to the people that are involved in creating the DAS policy?


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## cmwade77

curemyreed said:
			
		

> I'm confused. I don't know how to pull out individual quotes...sorry. You say in the Space Mountain example that you arrive at noon, there is a 60 minute wait, and the valid return time would be 1:00. Then you say you are done riding at 12:30. How is that possible? You would not be allowed into the non-standby line before 1:00 in the example. Maybe I am missing something?



No, there is no return time with my system. You go straight on the first ride, then wait the length of that line before going on the second. Then you wait the length of the second line before going on the third. This continues on until the end of the day.


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## livndisney

Chickenlady said:


> I guess I'm confused as to how this works.  Guests using this would have a great advantage versus regular guests.  *Nobody can be riding a ride and standing in line at the same time.*  First, you get on Splash with no wait, then you only have a 30 min,. wait until your next ride (which would be Pooh). By the time you get over to Pooh, your 30 min. are up and you haven't waited at all.  Might sound nice for people who have a DAS and can't wait in line, but is very much like the unlimited fastpass that was the old GAC.  At least with the way things work now with the DAS, everyone waits, just not in the same place.



 People do it all the time. If I have a fastpass for Space Mountain to ride at 2pm and I am on the Peoplemover at 1:30 I am "waiting in line" just not in the same place.


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## DisneyNutMary

OP I'm not sure how this is fair to all. 
You and I arrive at Space Mountain at 12noon with a 60 min standby. You get right on, I get in line. Your next available time to ride is, what? 1pm by your example? So at 1 pm you are getting on Pooh, which has a 60 min wait, I am getting on Space Mountain. You had a leisurely walk to Pooh and an ice cream cone, I stood in line. At 115, you exit Pooh, I exit Space Mountain. You head to lunch, I head to Pooh for another 60 min wait, arriving at Pooh at 125, I will ride at 225. By 240, you will be off your third attraction as your new wait time would have blocked you out until 215. Follow what I am trying to say? 
DAS was meant to even the wait times, not just be a GAC of a different name.


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## cmwade77

Chickenlady said:
			
		

> I guess I'm confused as to how this works.  Guests using this would have a great advantage versus regular guests.  Nobody can be riding a ride and standing in line at the same time.  First, you get on Splash with no wait, then you only have a 30 min,. wait until your next ride (which would be Pooh). By the time you get over to Pooh, your 30 min. are up and you haven't waited at all.  Might sound nice for people who have a DAS and can't wait in line, but is very much like the unlimited fastpass that was the old GAC.  At least with the way things work now with the DAS, everyone waits, just not in the same place.



No, you misunderstood the example. The wait time is still an hour, it is just broken up into two. Remember space is about a 3 minute ride. In this example you will have waited 27 minutes (yes, Disney could add in the length of the ride to make it as absolutely close to equal as possible, but no real need fir this short of a ride) and then 30 minutes after getting off. 

Under the current system, you have to wait an hour before returning, then wait another 27 minutes in my example, meaning you waited about 1.5 hours for what everyone else waits 1 hour for.


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## cmwade77

DisneyNutMary said:
			
		

> OP I'm not sure how this is fair to all.
> You and I arrive at Space Mountain at 12noon with a 60 min standby. You get right on, I get in line. Your next available time to ride is, what? 1pm by your example? So at 1 pm you are getting on Pooh, which has a 60 min wait, I am getting on Space Mountain. You had a leisurely walk to Pooh and an ice cream cone, I stood in line. At 115, you exit Pooh, I exit Space Mountain. You head to lunch, I head to Pooh for another 60 min wait, arriving at Pooh at 125, I will ride at 225. By 240, you will be off your third attraction as your new wait time would have blocked you out until 215. Follow what I am trying to say?
> DAS was meant to even the wait times, not just be a GAC of a different name.



See my example above, how is it equal that I currently wait 1.5 hours for what you wait 1 hour for? 

In addition how is it equal that I have to walk an average of 1.5 times more than a guest who doesn't need assistance? 

Additionally, the current system allows the same leisurely strolls that you refer to, the difference is I am walking further and waiting longer than others under the current system and the wait is currently before the ride instead of split between before and after. I think maybe that would have been the better way to explain it than saying the wait was entirely after, as that was not quite accurate. It would be a split wait.


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## Tozzie

cmwade77 said:


> See my example above, how is it equal that I currently wait 1.5 hours for what you wait 1 hour for?
> 
> In addition how is it equal that I have to walk an average of 1.5 times more than a guest who doesn't need assistance?
> 
> Additionally, the current system allows the same leisurely strolls that you refer to, the difference is I am walking further and waiting longer than others under the current system and the wait is currently before the ride instead of split between before and after. I think maybe that would have been the better way to explain it than saying the wait was entirely after, as that was not quite accurate. It would be a split wait.



If they were to switch to your system,  your wait time should start when you exit the first ride not when you enter it.  Then you would be waiting the same amount of time.


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## DisneyNutMary

cmwade77 said:


> See my example above, how is it equal that I currently wait 1.5 hours for what you wait 1 hour for?  In addition how is it equal that I have to walk an average of 1.5 times more than a guest who doesn't need assistance?  Additionally, the current system allows the same leisurely strolls that you refer to, the difference is I am walking further and waiting longer than others under the current system and the wait is currently before the ride instead of split between before and after.



Are we talking about WDW or DL?  I really have only followed the DAS for WDW, as that is where my family travels to. I haven't experienced DAS yet, but isn't it the case that the CM at the attraction assigns the return time? If so, we both walked the same distance to the attraction?  If my wait in standby is 60 mins, I ride at 1pm, aren't you getting a return time of 1250? Or have I miss read? I don't think I have ever waited 30 mins on any FP return line, so how do you come up with and hour and a half wait for you?  
Other posters have also expressed disbelief of your estimation of a 30 min wait if you are let right in, so I know it's not just me who has never waited 30 min in a FP return line. 
I'm sorry OP, I'm just not seeing your logic on the fairness if your method.


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## tinkerpea

I also commented on the other thread about this system,
This is the system that has been used with great success in the UK!!
Ill use Legoland UK as an example, the system was brought out so that people with disabilities could not get on all the headliners with NO wait as its of course unfair!
In the UK we have to provide proof to get the accommodation yet we still wait,

It works perfectly for disabilities like autism as the person with no understanding is able to ride while still waiting there turn but without realising it, this greatly helps out the careers!!

I know some will think its unfair as while your waiting in line where able to walk to the next ride using up our Q waiting time, but is that really so different to being able to go ride something with a lower wait time or getting an ice-cream then walking back to the original ride? No it's not.

Universal use it too and it works.
I for one will be in disney for 15 nights next wk and I'm dreading the new system as I know what's going to happen, unfortunately it will take a while for disney to realise this new system Wont work for all, 
I will give but a good crack, but I will also be yew to let them know if it does not work, as going back and forth to the same ride is sure to cause major melt down, yes I could get a runner but sometimes its just my son and I doing the rides he likes while dh takes the twins to do their stuff! So its not going to work then.


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## tinkerpea

DisneyNutMary said:


> Are we talking about WDW or DL?  I really have only followed the DAS for WDW, as that is where my family travels to. I haven't experienced DAS yet, but isn't it the case that the CM at the attraction assigns the return time? If so, we both walked the same distance to the attraction?  If my wait in standby is 60 mins, I ride at 1pm, aren't you getting a return time of 1250? Or have I miss read? I don't think I have ever waited 30 mins on any FP return line, so how do you come up with and hour and a half wait for you?
> Other posters have also expressed disbelief of your estimation of a 30 min wait if you are let right in, so I know it's not just me who has never waited 30 min in a FP return line.
> I'm sorry OP, I'm just not seeing your logic on the fairness if your method.



People with the DAS have to go to the ride get a time, then walk away do something else then walk back to the same ride!
That's a lot of back and fourth that people without a DAS need don't do,

Also the wait time in the summer can easily be 20 mins in FP line.
And right now waits have been longer then normal as they have DAS return times plus MB FP+ and normal FP.

This system does work because loads of parks use it.


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## tinkerpea

Tozzie said:


> If they were to switch to your system,  your wait time should start when you exit the first ride not when you enter it.  Then you would be waiting the same amount of time.



In the UK the time is written on the card as you go to get on the ride, so you only gain the ride time over others. Not as you enter the actual line to wait for the ride.


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## disney david

tinkerpea said:


> People with the DAS have to go to the ride get a time, then walk away do something else then walk back to the same ride!
> That's a lot of back and fourth that people without a DAS need don't do,
> 
> Also the wait time in the summer can easily be 20 mins in FP line.
> And right now waits have been longer then normal as they have DAS return times plus MB FP+ and normal FP.
> 
> This system does work because loads of parks use it.




That how it works to get a fast pass 

You walk to a attraction to get fast pass then have to do something else then walk back to the attraction. So how that different with fast pass you have to wait before your next one the das you get more return times. Now with fast pass plus at wdw you only get three choices and that it.


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## alizesmom

Make FPP available to all guests and phase out FP. Choose your first attraction as FPP prior to entering park. Use GAC obtained prior to first ride for second attraction and so on for six attractions. You get twice the number that the average guest gets. You can explain to the person who doesn't understand waiting that "we ride ToT first then can ride RnRC in 50 minutes. Still isn't fair to the typical guest but not an unlimited fast pass either.


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## brown1442

At Cedar Point, a large amusement park in Sandusky, Ohio they gave us a pass that worked like a GAC for "front of the line" on each attraction in the park once. If we wanted to ride an attraction more than once we had to wait the standard wait. It was fair and worked well for our family (10yo w Aspergers and 8 yo w Mitochondrial Disease, multiple medical issues, in a wheel chair and w autism). 

Playing under the rules of the new system I think it would be helpful if you could get 2 return times at once.


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## alizesmom

Disney needs to make the DAS LOS for all guests and possibly monthly for residents. All disabilities need to be addressed but we need to be very clear what will help such as "I need to be no further back than the third row or I can't see" or "I need to be included in the show that has the ASL interpreter so I can follow the story". We also need to get over our shyness about stating our needs. You can't be helped if GS doesn't understand your need.


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## mistysue

tinkerpea said:
			
		

> People with the DAS have to go to the ride get a time, then walk away do something else then walk back to the same ride!
> That's a lot of back and fourth that people without a DAS need don't do,
> 
> Also the wait time in the summer can easily be 20 mins in FP line.
> And right now waits have been longer then normal as they have DAS return times plus MB FP+ and normal FP.
> 
> This system does work because loads of parks use it.



You don't have to walk away. You could browse a shop nearby, ride something across the walkway, grab a snack, take your potty break or just people watch in the shade. You have options. Those without a DAS have only one option, to stare at the person ahead of them for an hour. Even though its not as generous as the GAC was, it still lets you get more done in the same time as others in the same park without one. The main idea of this thread, while nice for those who would have the card, is similar to the GAC in that the benefit is so generous it is not anything like fair.


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## Disfanx4

I will be in DW 12 days from know, I will be the first to admit I did freak out when I first heard about the changes, the I was invited to do FP+.  As it goes right now it looks like booking your first FP ride before hand would be similar to approaching first ride and getting right on, now I know and expect this to have snags because of meltdowns or bad starts, but on a perfect day lol I would hit the park with a ride time already, grab a return time with DAS before riding FP ride and then go to second FP ride but grab next DAS, rinse and repeat.   Could also be picking up regular FP times as well.  Should be an almost continuous ride to ride experience.  I have 2 daughter on the spectrum so basically can double the amount of return times if I wanted except one doesn't ride rides.  I am going with very little expectations of my plans working and hoping to be pleasantly surprised.  Sounds like a pretty full day with very little waits


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## cmwade77

DisneyNutMary said:
			
		

> Are we talking about WDW or DL?  I really have only followed the DAS for WDW, as that is where my family travels to. I haven't experienced DAS yet, but isn't it the case that the CM at the attraction assigns the return time? If so, we both walked the same distance to the attraction?  If my wait in standby is 60 mins, I ride at 1pm, aren't you getting a return time of 1250? Or have I miss read? I don't think I have ever waited 30 mins on any FP return line, so how do you come up with and hour and a half wait for you?
> Other posters have also expressed disbelief of your estimation of a 30 min wait if you are let right in, so I know it's not just me who has never waited 30 min in a FP return line.
> I'm sorry OP, I'm just not seeing your logic on the fairness if your method.



This example is at Disneyland, the wait for the accessible queue is often 30+ minutes. 

If the wait is less, obviously you would be off the ride sooner. I think people are getting too bogged down with the exact times. 30 minutes in the accessible queue would be short. I have seen the wheelchair queue there have a two hour wait with the standby line only having a 30 minute wait. I can't do stairs, which you have to do when exciting from anywhere but the accessible queue. So the standby queue is not an option for me.  I  specifically cougar space Mountain to demonstrate the issue with the current system. I did unfortunately forget to mention it was at Disneyland. 

 Under my system between the time you wait in line before the attraction and the time you wait before your next ride is available would work out to the exact same total as the standby line. It's just that the wait is broken into two. 

Waiting until you get off the ride to determine the next time wouldn't be fair, I you already waited a certain amount of time for that attraction and you shouldn't have to wait that amount of time again. 

If you want to make sure it is perfectly equal, factor in the length of the ride. Disney knows how long each ride lasts, so this wouldn't be hard to do.


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## cmwade77

mistysue said:
			
		

> You don't have to walk away. You could browse a shop nearby, ride something across the walkway, grab a snack, take your potty break or just people watch in the shade. You have options. Those without a DAS have only one option, to stare at the person ahead of them for an hour. Even though its not as generous as the GAC was, it still lets you get more done in the same time as others in the same park without one. The main idea of this thread, while nice for those who would have the card, is similar to the GAC in that the benefit is so generous it is not anything like fair.


Huh? No, the point of my suggestion is to make wait times 100% equal. Right now, they are unequal at almost every attraction. Additionally, let's say I want to ride Splash Mountain and Winnie the Pooh, which are right next to each other.  Under the current system I have to get a Return Time for Splash Mountain, then walkfrom thekiosk to Splash, ride it, then go back up the extremely steep Hill to get a Return Time for Winnie the pooh, assuming it's got a line at the time, then go back down the hill to ride it, then go back up the hill. how can I simply avoid walking away when I have to go to kiosks to get return times? Any other guest can go ride Splash Mountain, with a FP (not an option for me since I can't do stairs, I can only do a Return Time according to the CMs there) and the go on Winnie the pooh and then walk up that steep Hill once. 

How is that fair?

At DW, things are so spread out that there are many attractions that don't have anything else near them, so the suggestion isn't really viable there. Perhaps, if there was the option to use kiosks or go to the attraction AND they accounted for the time you wait when returning, return times can work. But ultimately, the wait times need to be exactly the same to prevent abuse, whenever there is inequality, there is potential for abuse.


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## Tozzie

cmwade77 said:


> This example is at Disneyland, the wait for the accessible queue is often 30+ minutes.
> 
> If the wait is less, obviously you would be off the ride sooner. I think people are getting too bogged down with the exact times. 30 minutes in the accessible queue would be short. I have seen the wheelchair queue there have a two hour wait with the standby line only having a 30 minute wait. I can't do stairs, which you have to do when exciting from anywhere but the accessible queue. So the standby queue is not an option for me.  I  specifically cougar space Mountain to demonstrate the issue with the current system. I did unfortunately forget to mention it was at Disneyland.
> 
> Under my system between the time you wait in line before the attraction and the time you wait before your next ride is available would work out to the exact same total as the standby line. It's just that the wait is broken into two.
> 
> Waiting until you get off the ride to determine the next time wouldn't be fair, I you already waited a certain amount of time for that attraction and you shouldn't have to wait that amount of time again.
> 
> If you want to make sure it is perfectly equal, factor in the length of the ride. Disney knows how long each ride lasts, so this wouldn't be hard to do.



Now I understand what you are saying,  but I have a question,  now that they are giving return times to all people who need the alternate entrance is the wait time still 2 hours.


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## cmwade77

Tozzie said:
			
		

> Now I understand what you are saying,  but I have a question,  now that they are giving return times to all people who need the alternate entrance is the wait time still 2 hours.



By all accounts it had dropped to about double the length of the standby line, but this is still not equal. Because this essentially means waiting 3x what  everyone else does.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:
			
		

> Huh? No, the point of my suggestion is to make wait times 100% equal. Right now, they are unequal at almost every attraction. Additionally, let's say I want to ride Splash Mountain and Winnie the Pooh, which are right next to each other.  Under the current system I have to get a Return Time for Splash Mountain, then walkfrom thekiosk to Splash, ride it, then go back up the extremely steep Hill to get a Return Time for Winnie the pooh, assuming it's got a line at the time, then go back down the hill to ride it, then go back up the hill. how can I simply avoid walking away when I have to go to kiosks to get return times? Any other guest can go ride Splash Mountain, with a FP (not an option for me since I can't do stairs, I can only do a Return Time according to the CMs there) and the go on Winnie the pooh and then walk up that steep Hill once.
> 
> How is that fair?
> 
> At DW, things are so spread out that there are many attractions that don't have anything else near them, so the suggestion isn't really viable there. Perhaps, if there was the option to use kiosks or go to the attraction AND they accounted for the time you wait when returning, return times can work. But ultimately, the wait times need to be exactly the same to prevent abuse, whenever there is inequality, there is potential for abuse.



Sorry, it really does completely change the issue if you are talking about DL, not world. I dont know enough about Disneyland.  At Disney world I can not imagine any way the proposed idea is not a huge advantage. The only way for it to not be an advantage at WDW would be if they literally marked you and you were not allowed to use a restroom, buy food, shop, or ride anything else until after your wait time. That time that other people are spending in line you now have free to do as you please. The people stuck in line have to come up with more time later to do all you could accomplish while they were in line. They have to wait until after they ride to even walk to their next ride. You get to use your "line time" to accomplish extra and walk to your next ride. 
Maybe distance yourself for a minute and think of it this way- they are going to initiate this policy you propose, but you don't get to use it. No matter how difficult your regular life is, pretend the criteria excludes you... Is it fair? Is the person with the pass now on equal ground, or at an advantage?


----------



## OurBigTrip

One of the biggest complaints I've heard regarding the DAS is that it only allows a guest to have one "active" attraction at a time. This interferes with the ability of families whose children have cognitive difficulties to even attempt to explain to the child what the sequence of events will be.

Disney could fix this fairly easily while still retaining the wait requirement by simply starting the next wait time at return time of the previous attraction on the list.

Say you want to ride Haunted Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean, Splash Mountain, and Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Current time is 10:00 AM, and the current wait for the rides are 45, 35, 60 and 75 minutes, respectively.  Your DAS would have return times of 10:45(HM), 11:20 (POTC), 12:20 (SM) and 1:35 (BTMRR) (Assuming my math is right).  The DAS guest would still have to wait for each ride, which is as it should be, but it would cut down on the running around between rides to get return times.


----------



## LisaBi

I like the basic concept...basically, you ride now, then wait the standby time for what you just rode before you can ride something else.  It's ride then wait, instead of wait then ride.  Sounds like it would solve the criss-crossing issue and more importantly, the issues for the kids that will totally melt down not understanding why they are at the attraction but can't go on it RIGHT NOW. Thankfully DS has matured to the point where he understands "we will get a ticket to ride in a little bit."  But we spent some long hours in the past sitting near an attraction throwing a fit.  NOTHING else was going to happen until we got on whatever the ride of the moment was. No snack, no going to a different attraction, nothing.


----------



## DisneyNutMary

OurBigTrip said:


> One of the biggest complaints I've heard regarding the DAS is that it only allows a guest to have one "active" attraction at a time. This interferes with the ability of families whose children have cognitive difficulties to even attempt to explain to the child what the sequence of events will be.  Disney could fix this fairly easily while still retaining the wait requirement by simply starting the next wait time at return time of the previous attraction on the list.  Say you want to ride Haunted Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean, Splash Mountain, and Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Current time is 10:00 AM, and the current wait for the rides are 45, 35, 60 and 75 minutes, respectively.  Your DAS would have return times of 10:45(HM), 11:20 (POTC), 12:20 (SM) and 1:35 (BTMRR) (Assuming my math is right).  The DAS guest would still have to wait for each ride, which is as it should be, but it would cut down on the running around between rides to get return times.



Again, fair to the DAS holder, but not fair to the non DAS holder. Fair would be if my wait times worked like that too. My child may not need a DAS, but that doesn't make it any easier to explain wait times and why we can't go on the ride right now to him. But, my child waits the wait time listed when we arrive at the attraction, not the wait time as of the moment we exited the prior attraction. 
Just playing devils advocate here, as my child is far beyond the age of not understanding wait times. I have been in a group using a GAC for a niece with ASD, have been in a group with a wheelchair. So I've experienced it all.   I'm just trying to step back and look at the picture as a whole. How everyone can be affected fairly. 

I think the idea of a PP had merit. One time instant access to each attraction (like universals express pass) then any additional attractions at regular standby. Fair to everyone? No. Open to abuse? Absolutely! But it would cut down on the looping that slows down lines.... If the access is greater to the disabled, the rules could be set to reflect the greater access with tighter controls.


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:
			
		

> Sorry, it really does completely change the issue if you are talking about DL, not world. I dont know enough about Disneyland.  At Disney world I can not imagine any way the proposed idea is not a huge advantage. The only way for it to not be an advantage at WDW would be if they literally marked you and you were not allowed to use a restroom, buy food, shop, or ride anything else until after your wait time. That time that other people are spending in line you now have free to do as you please. The people stuck in line have to come up with more time later to do all you could accomplish while they were in line. They have to wait until after they ride to even walk to their next ride. You get to use your "line time" to accomplish extra and walk to your next ride.
> Maybe distance yourself for a minute and think of it this way- they are going to initiate this policy you propose, but you don't get to use it. No matter how difficult your regular life is, pretend the criteria excludes you... Is it fair? Is the person with the pass now on equal ground, or at an advantage?


I don't get how you don't see this as an issue with the current system. Under the current system, you can do all of these things while waiting, how is the advantage any different when waiting before vs. After riding.


----------



## OurBigTrip

DisneyNutMary said:


> Again, fair to the DAS holder, but not fair to the non DAS holder. Fair would be if my wait times worked like that too. My child may not need a DAS, but that doesn't make it any easier to explain wait times and why we can't go on the ride right now to him. But, my child waits the wait time listed when we arrive at the attraction, not the wait time as of the moment we exited the prior attraction.
> Just playing devils advocate here, as my child is far beyond the age of not understanding wait times. I have been in a group using a GAC for a niece with ASD, have been in a group with a wheelchair. So I've experienced it all.   I'm just trying to step back and look at the picture as a whole. How everyone can be affected fairly.
> 
> I think the idea of a PP had merit. One time instant access to each attraction (like universals express pass) then any additional attractions at regular standby. Fair to everyone? No. Open to abuse? Absolutely! But it would cut down on the looping that slows down lines.... If the access is greater to the disabled, the rules could be set to reflect the greater access with tighter controls.



In my example, DAS holders might wait a short amount of time less than non-DAS, but it's not nearly the perk they had under GAC, which I agree was not really fair to others.  My kids don't like to wait either, so I feel you there, but the difference in wait times this example would be nominal, or possibly non-existent, if you consider the wait once the DAS holder actually enters the Fast Pass line.

It also addresses the issue of helping parents plan out their child's day in a way that will help the child cope better.


----------



## Tozzie

cmwade77 said:


> By all accounts it had dropped to about double the length of the standby line, but this is still not equal. Because this essentially means waiting 3x what  everyone else does.



I didn't mean to  imply that it was fair, I just had the question.  I also don't think you should have to wait  3x the standby line.  If the wait time is 60 minutes then it should be 60 minutes for all.


----------



## Talking Hands

The biggest problem I see with all the cards is getting the castmembers to actually listen to your needs when you are using a wheelchair.  They just automatically decide that the only accommodation needed is wheelchair seating.  I have had that happen too many times to count.  Power wheelchair.  Ok, right over there.  No I need the interpreter area.  No wheelchairs go here.  Even got ripped a new one at Tough to be a Bug when I requested captioning in addition to being in my wheelchair.  ANd was mocked for using sign language


----------



## cmwade77

Tozzie said:
			
		

> I didn't mean to  imply that it was fair, I just had the question.  I also don't think you should have to wait  3x the standby line.  If the wait time is 60 minutes then it should be 60 minutes for all.



Which is exactly what my system accomplishes. It allows for a 60 minute wait and provides for the needs of people who need assistance in some form or another. 

It makes all wait times equal in 99% of all cases, there will always be the odd something that will cause one to be different, but that can happen for anyone.


----------



## cmwade77

Talking Hands said:
			
		

> The biggest problem I see with all the cards is getting the castmembers to actually listen to your needs when you are using a wheelchair.  They just automatically decide that the only accommodation needed is wheelchair seating.  I have had that happen too many times to count.  Power wheelchair.  Ok, right over there.  No I need the interpreter area.  No wheelchairs go here.  Even got ripped a new one at Tough to be a Bug when I requested captioning in addition to being in my wheelchair.  ANd was mocked for using sign language



That is so not cool. I would ask for areas managers at that.


----------



## tinkerpea

mistysue said:


> You don't have to walk away. You could browse a shop nearby, ride something across the walkway, grab a snack, take your potty break or just people watch in the shade. You have options. Those without a DAS have only one option, to stare at the person ahead of them for an hour. Even though its not as generous as the GAC was, it still lets you get more done in the same time as others in the same park without one. The main idea of this thread, while nice for those who would have the card, is similar to the GAC in that the benefit is so generous it is not anything like fair.



I don't see what's not fair about it? 
You would still be waiting the length of the standard Q?
And even if I do what you said I'm still doing more walking around just in a shop nr by.


----------



## Talking Hands

cmwade77 said:


> That is so not cool. I would ask for areas managers at that.


Not only did I ask for an area manager but was refused so I went to guest services to complain and wrote Disney as well.  I was not taking that kind of treatment.  You don't mock a person for using a different language.  I was told to stop flapping my hands by this castmember.  
I find that many of the general CM have no idea about working with guests with disabilities who have multiple needs.  You are fine if you have 1 need that needs to be addressed but you add a second or third and they are at a loss.


----------



## tinkerpea

Talking Hands said:


> Not only did I ask for an area manager but was refused so I went to guest services to complain and wrote Disney as well.  I was not taking that kind of treatment.  You don't mock a person for using a different language.  I was told to stop flapping my hands by this castmember.
> I find that many of the general CM have no idea about working with guests with disabilities who have multiple needs.  You are fine if you have 1 need that needs to be addressed but you add a second or third and they are at a loss.



That is utterly disgusting to be told to "stop flapping your hands" I'd have been livid, 
I hope that CM gets some valuable teaching time.
This is why the stamps was so handy with the GAC they addressed the persons individual needs not just one size fits all need!!


----------



## Tink575

Talking Hands said:
			
		

> The biggest problem I see with all the cards is getting the castmembers to actually listen to your needs when you are using a wheelchair.  They just automatically decide that the only accommodation needed is wheelchair seating.  I have had that happen too many times to count.  Power wheelchair.  Ok, right over there.  No I need the interpreter area.  No wheelchairs go here.  Even got ripped a new one at Tough to be a Bug when I requested captioning in addition to being in my wheelchair.  ANd was mocked for using sign language



Wow that is awful, I certainly hope Disney gets back.to you! At the very least you are owed an apology and some attempt.to.remediate these difficulties. 

I always thought Disney Guest Relations was so supportive and helpful, the past 1-2 weeks make me believe some CMs seriously need to take sensitivity training.


----------



## Sunnywho

> My child may not need a DAS, but that doesn't make it any easier to explain wait times and why we can't go on the ride right now to him.


Um, assuming your child is verbal and nonautistic, I am quite sure it is easier.


----------



## tinkerpea

DisneyNutMary said:


> Again, fair to the DAS holder, but not fair to the non DAS holder. Fair would be if my wait times worked like that too. My child may not need a DAS, but that doesn't make it any easier to explain wait times and why we can't go on the ride right now to him. But, my child waits the wait time listed when we arrive at the attraction, not the wait time as of the moment we exited the prior attraction.
> Just playing devils advocate here, as my child is far beyond the age of not understanding wait times. I have been in a group using a GAC for a niece with ASD, have been in a group with a wheelchair. So I've experienced it all.   I'm just trying to step back and look at the picture as a whole. How everyone can be affected fairly.
> 
> I think the idea of a PP had merit. One time instant access to each attraction (like universals express pass) then any additional attractions at regular standby. Fair to everyone? No. Open to abuse? Absolutely! But it would cut down on the looping that slows down lines.... If the access is greater to the disabled, the rules could be set to reflect the greater access with tighter controls.



Just curious 
Does that mean your not happy with the way the current DAS works too then? 
Since the DAS holders are still at an advantage of not having to wait in a line?


----------



## tinkerpea

mistysue said:


> Sorry, it really does completely change the issue if you are talking about DL, not world. I dont know enough about Disneyland.  At Disney world I can not imagine any way the proposed idea is not a huge advantage. The only way for it to not be an advantage at WDW would be if they literally marked you and you were not allowed to use a restroom, buy food, shop, or ride anything else until after your wait time. That time that other people are spending in line you now have free to do as you please. The people stuck in line have to come up with more time later to do all you could accomplish while they were in line. They have to wait until after they ride to even walk to their next ride. You get to use your "line time" to accomplish extra and walk to your next ride.
> Maybe distance yourself for a minute and think of it this way- they are going to initiate this policy you propose, but you don't get to use it. No matter how difficult your regular life is, pretend the criteria excludes you... Is it fair? Is the person with the pass now on equal ground, or at an advantage?



Well then no matter if they keep the current DAS or changed to Universals one " it's what the OP is suggesting he has not made this system up it used at other parks"
You won't be happy with it, since its not the exact same experience to what you yourself have to have in the park.


----------



## cmwade77

tinkerpea said:
			
		

> Well then no matter if they keep the current DAS or changed to Universals one " it's what the OP is suggesting he has not made this system up it used at other parks"
> You won't be happy with it, since its not the exact same experience to what you yourself have to have in the park.



Exactly, I am also told that many parks in Europe use the system I suggest.


----------



## cmwade77

tinkerpea said:
			
		

> That is utterly disgusting to be told to "stop flapping your hands" I'd have been livid,
> I hope that CM gets some valuable teaching time.
> This is why the stamps was so handy with the GAC they addressed the persons individual needs not just one size fits all need!!



Now that is not cool at all.


----------



## Sunnywho

cmwade77 said:


> Here is my thought:
> Eliminate return times
> Instead what would happen is you would present your DAS to the first CM you see at each attraction. They would write the date,  atttraction name, arrival time, current wait time and the next valid time. The next valid time would be the current time plus the current wait time. You would then proceed to go on that ride. After that ride, you would need to wait for the next valid time to go on another ride with the pass.


I wonder if they considered this prior to rolling out the DAS. A drawback might be if a guest could just change the time (let's say the next valid time was 4:00 but the guest writes in 3:00 over it). With the current system, there was talk of a different code word being used each day at each ride so that abuse was less likely.

As for fairness, the point of DAS is to allow access for guests who might not otherwise be able to access the attractions. There are plenty of people who find the long lines uncomfortable, but they can deal with it and still have access. DAS is for guests who legitimately cannot deal with it. The current system might not be perfectly fair but that's not the goal; the goal is access for everyone. Allowing the guest to go straight into the ride and serve the wait time afterwards would improve access for any guest who cannot understand why they'd have to approach a ride to get the DAS time and then leave the ride without riding.


----------



## richflour

Deaf people are more than capable of waiting in line as hearing folks but how does some one with knees that are shot maneuver in and out of such an awkward ride by the way I do know all about handicap people my son is hearing visually impaired bound to a wheelchair needs a machine to help him breath mental and physically impaired its people like your family that make it difficult for people like my son to have a good time at a wonderful place like Disney


----------



## Chickenlady

To play devil's advocate, using your system would allow one definite advantage....Since you only wait the designated time after you ride...at the end of the evening you ride a ride and then instead of waiting, you go home.  No way for you to actually wait for every ride you take.  I'd much rather spend my wait time crawling into bed, than watching stranger's behinds from my ECV.


----------



## cmwade77

Chickenlady said:
			
		

> To play devil's advocate, using your system would allow one definite advantage....Since you only wait the designated time after you ride...at the end of the evening you ride a ride and then instead of waiting, you go home.  No way for you to actually wait for every ride you take.  I'd much rather spend my wait time crawling into bed, than watching stranger's behinds from my ECV.



I did mention this drawback, but I also explained how getting the pass in the morning accounts for it to some extent. I am sure there are other ways to account for it as well.


----------



## Hopediamant

cmwade77 said:


> Let's please keep this civil, there are plenty of people who are disabled who are able to ride Space.
> 
> I think most in here have been keeping it civil and many have valid points, I may not agree with them all, but they are valid points and I don't want us giving the moderators a reason to have to close this thread. Comments such as this one does nothing to further the conversation and is just trying to bait people.



I am very civil and polite but if this whole stamp and unlimited access whit no restrictions starts again we will get a DAS.
I never could explain to my children and now grandchildren why we had to wait patiently while others got access to BMR three times in a row.And yes we could see that. 
Dealing with many problems after fighting cancer I never saw myself as needing a GAC but if this whole preferred access abuse starts again I will fully use it. 
We just left when the man with the chemo aftermath hammer arrived. Some times I just could stay two hours in the parks.
That was what life gave me but now we will fully profit from the special treatment when the situation again gets out of hands.


----------



## BroganMc

Ok so if I understand this proposed system you'd be flipping it around to put the wait time at the end of the ride instead of the beginning. The benefit is that you're not starting your day with a wait and you'll be able to ride something at the end of the day when CMs are proving reluctant to give Return Times (i.e. in the last hour a park is open).

No I don't find that unfair to non-DAS people. You're still taking the same amount of time to do an attraction. The extra time for waiting is taken at the end and prohibits you from getting on something until you have completed that wait.

One thing I found potentially unfair at DAS is that it does not account for the additional wait one encounters when using a wheelchair-accessible vehicle. Since there are so few of those it is common to encounter a line that can take another 20 mins or so above and beyond what a non-wheelchair car user encounters. This system will include that wait in it's post-ride Return Time.

Example: I go to TSM at 2pm when there is a 90 min wait. I'm admitted into the FP line and then wait for the wheelchair vehicle another 30 mins to board (6 mins allotted for each party in front of me, and 5 parties waiting before me). I finish my ride at 2:40pm, but now I have until 3:30pm before I can go on my next attraction with DAS. I can go into One Man's Dream or maybe join the queue for Lights, Motor, Action!

Under current DAS rules, I'd get my Return Time at 2pm. Then return at 3:30pm, wait the extra 30 mins in the Wheelie Line to ride, and get out at 4:10pm. I've now spent longer than any guest to do the same thing.

(People really need to understand that if one has a disability that affects boarding, there is always extra time allotted to for every attraction. The mythical FOTL pass abuse was for folks who have no boarding issues.)

Also this system would allow me to get on TSM in the last hour DHS is open. Currently, CMs have been refusing to give Return Times because they'd be after the park closes. That's decidedly unfair to disabled DAS guests because everyone in Standby is allowed to ride as long as they're in the line before the park closes.


----------



## Hopediamant

BroganMc said:


> Ok so if I understand this proposed system you'd be flipping it around to put the wait time at the end of the ride instead of the beginning. The benefit is that you're not starting your day with a wait and you'll be able to ride something at the end of the day when CMs are proving reluctant to give Return Times (i.e. in the last hour a park is open).
> 
> No I don't find that unfair to non-DAS people. You're still taking the same amount of time to do an attraction. The extra time for waiting is taken at the end and prohibits you from getting on something until you have completed that wait.
> 
> One thing I found potentially unfair at DAS is that it does not account for the additional wait one encounters when using a wheelchair-accessible vehicle. Since there are so few of those it is common to encounter a line that can take another 20 mins or so above and beyond what a non-wheelchair car user encounters. This system will include that wait in it's post-ride Return Time.
> 
> Example: I go to TSM at 2pm when there is a 90 min wait. I'm admitted into the FP line and then wait for the wheelchair vehicle another 30 mins to board (6 mins allotted for each party in front of me, and 5 parties waiting before me). I finish my ride at 2:40pm, but now I have until 3:30pm before I can go on my next attraction with DAS. I can go into One Man's Dream or maybe join the queue for Lights, Motor, Action!
> 
> Under current DAS rules, I'd get my Return Time at 2pm. Then return at 3:30pm, wait the extra 30 mins in the Wheelie Line to ride, and get out at 4:10pm. I've now spent longer than any guest to do the same thing.
> 
> (People really need to understand that if one has a disability that affects boarding, there is always extra time allotted to for every attraction. The mythical FOTL pass abuse was for folks who have no boarding issues.)
> 
> Also this system would allow me to get on TSM in the last hour DHS is open. Currently, CMs have been refusing to give Return Times because they'd be after the park closes. That's decidedly unfair to disabled DAS guests because everyone in Standby is allowed to ride as long as they're in the line before the park closes.



And those without a GAC waited over twenty minutes extra at every attraction because on 50.000 guests there were 20.000 GAC users.
No matter how this is put in a velvet jacket this whole GAC/DAS use has to be reduced drastically or the whole system will collapse.


----------



## KPeveler

Talking Hands said:


> The biggest problem I see with all the cards is getting the castmembers to actually listen to your needs when you are using a wheelchair.  They just automatically decide that the only accommodation needed is wheelchair seating.  I have had that happen too many times to count.  Power wheelchair.  Ok, right over there.  No I need the interpreter area.  No wheelchairs go here.  Even got ripped a new one at Tough to be a Bug when I requested captioning in addition to being in my wheelchair.  ANd was mocked for using sign language



I think I would have actually just parked my chair in the middle of the way until a supervisor came to apologize for the other CMs idiocy.

I have had to make friends with CMs at all the shows in DL just so I can be in the interpreter area with my wheelchair - I am learning sign, and have family members who are losing their hearing (and it turns out I may as well, we don't know), and I often travel with people who need the interpreter.  There is actually a spot for Magical Map that I don't even think was planned until someone asked how a person in a wheelchair will see the interpreters.

I have discovered the best way in my case is simply not to acknowledge the wheelchair.  If they do say something about it, I say that the wheelchair can do nothing for my dysautonomia (I put it in simpler words than that).  

I also explain what will happen IN THEIR LINE.  I had a friend ask for a DAS right after me (same problems and even worse in terms of dealing with SoCal heat), and I got mine no problem and she had issues (with the same CM).  Listening to her and others, I have discovered that when people say that "such and such" will cause fainting/seizures/meltdowns/etc and then "we have to leave the park" or "I have to go to the hospital" - that has nothing to do with how you wait IN THE LINE.    

My best suggestion, if you have issues in addition to or that cannot be met only by wheelchair use, don't bring it up, and explain what will happen in their line.  "This things that happens in your line causes me to do this undesirable thing in your line."  

When it comes to changes to the DAS, I am not sure what to suggest.  I do know that having more CMs need to keep track of how long wait times were when I entered the ride (I have seen times go from 5 to 45 mins in the blink of an eye after fireworks) is going to end up with people getting annoyed.  Guests will argue that they waited longer than the standby time (which can happen), or other such problems.  The reason the CMs at the kiosks use the app (that guests can use) is to avoid such problems.

Right now I am thinking of the exit of most rides in Fantasyland or continuous loading rides (Mansion, Pirates, Buzz) in DISNEYLAND.  What I am about to say is usually true for WDW rides too, but I wanted to be specific.  There is ONE person at the ride exit (which is where guests with wheelchairs board and all guests exit).  And even at the "bigger" attractions, each CM present has a very specific task.  The person at Fantasyland, in order to load me (wheelchair guest) is only allowed to take her hands off the ride control console once a vehicle stop is in place (nothing moves in the boarding area while she gets me in).

Even when guests disembark, the CM is not allowed to take her hand off the control panel.  It is actually part of the rules - she may wave a guest off with one hand, but the other remains on the panel at all times.  When CMs change position, the new CM will come up to the old CM and put his hands onto the control panel before the old CM is allowed to move to her new position in the attraction.

I know that CMs sometimes do other things - but this is what the rule is supposed to be.  And also, the guest who is working the secondary control panel at the guest exit of Splash Mountain (the one by the logs, not the one outside where the single rider/wheelchair entrance was) has no clue what the stand-by time is.  Some rides are just too big and there are too many positions (many of which guests do not even see) for the person who rotates around to know the stand-by time when you boarded the ride.

There would need to be extra people there for the purpose of writing the times at the ride exits, and I am just not sure how that is supposed to work.  I can say, after years of going to Disneyland and being married into a CM family (my wife worked Splash in DL), I cannot see the CMs at ride exit being able to stop and write down times.  I am not even sure how they are going to be doing it in WDW.


----------



## KPeveler

This thread has some good ideas, and I encourage people to write to Disney with ideas and experiences. 

*However, there will be NO judging of who needs a DAS, wheelchair, ECV, or other aide, especially based on sweeping generalizations.  None of us know the whole story of others here, and saying entire categories of people are faking or undeserving because of a personal prejudice will not be tolerated.  Not on this thread, nor on any other on the disABILITIES forum.  *

If people cannot comply by these rules, this thread will have to be closed.


----------



## WantToGoNow

richflour said:
			
		

> My thoughts . If you can go on space mtn. You are not handicapped.



Seriously?


----------



## disney david

KPeveler said:


> I think I would have actually just parked my chair in the middle of the way until a supervisor came to apologize for the other CMs idiocy.
> 
> I have had to make friends with CMs at all the shows in DL just so I can be in the interpreter area with my wheelchair - I am learning sign, and have family members who are losing their hearing (and it turns out I may as well, we don't know), and I often travel with people who need the interpreter.  There is actually a spot for Magical Map that I don't even think was planned until someone asked how a person in a wheelchair will see the interpreters.
> 
> I have discovered the best way in my case is simply not to acknowledge the wheelchair.  If they do say something about it, I say that the wheelchair can do nothing for my dysautonomia (I put it in simpler words than that).
> 
> I also explain what will happen IN THEIR LINE.  I had a friend ask for a DAS right after me (same problems and even worse in terms of dealing with SoCal heat), and I got mine no problem and she had issues (with the same CM).  Listening to her and others, I have discovered that when people say that "such and such" will cause fainting/seizures/meltdowns/etc and then "we have to leave the park" or "I have to go to the hospital" - that has nothing to do with how you wait IN THE LINE.
> 
> My best suggestion, if you have issues in addition to or that cannot be met only by wheelchair use, don't bring it up, and explain what will happen in their line.  "This things that happens in your line causes me to do this undesirable thing in your line."
> 
> When it comes to changes to the DAS, I am not sure what to suggest.  I do know that having more CMs need to keep track of how long wait times were when I entered the ride (I have seen times go from 5 to 45 mins in the blink of an eye after fireworks) is going to end up with people getting annoyed.  Guests will argue that they waited longer than the standby time (which can happen), or other such problems.  The reason the CMs at the kiosks use the app (that guests can use) is to avoid such problems.
> 
> Right now I am thinking of the exit of most rides in Fantasyland or continuous loading rides (Mansion, Pirates, Buzz) in DISNEYLAND.  What I am about to say is usually true for WDW rides too, but I wanted to be specific.  There is ONE person at the ride exit (which is where guests with wheelchairs board and all guests exit).  And even at the "bigger" attractions, each CM present has a very specific task.  The person at Fantasyland, in order to load me (wheelchair guest) is only allowed to take her hands off the ride control console once a vehicle stop is in place (nothing moves in the boarding area while she gets me in).
> 
> Even when guests disembark, the CM is not allowed to take her hand off the control panel.  It is actually part of the rules - she may wave a guest off with one hand, but the other remains on the panel at all times.  When CMs change position, the new CM will come up to the old CM and put his hands onto the control panel before the old CM is allowed to move to her new position in the attraction.
> 
> I know that CMs sometimes do other things - but this is what the rule is supposed to be.  And also, the guest who is working the secondary control panel at the guest exit of Splash Mountain (the one by the logs, not the one outside where the single rider/wheelchair entrance was) has no clue what the stand-by time is.  Some rides are just too big and there are too many positions (many of which guests do not even see) for the person who rotates around to know the stand-by time when you boarded the ride.
> 
> There would need to be extra people there for the purpose of writing the times at the ride exits, and I am just not sure how that is supposed to work.  I can say, after years of going to Disneyland and being married into a CM family (my wife worked Splash in DL), I cannot see the CMs at ride exit being able to stop and write down times.  I am not even sure how they are going to be doing it in WDW.



That a good idea in theory and the cm should be fired for more then one reason but doing that their no swing hey will call a supervisor or manager. They may call security and turn it around and say your being difficult and refusing to comply and making it unsafe for them to perform their job. Which will get you in trouble more Then cm because now they show you  are the one being difficult. I would go to another cm and ask to speak to a manager or if I see one go to them even if it a another cm in a different department they can get you a a manager.


I no way say the cm was right I think the cm that made the comment in both times unless it happened at the same ride. And the cms standing near them the leads and managers should all be fired. That would send a huge message to the rest of the cms that you make rude comments to guest with disabilities you be fired and make he managers make sure hey do their job in making sure they keep a eye on the cms.


----------



## mistysue

I guess my issue is that (at least at WDW) this does not split your wait, it eliminates it. You enter immediately, wait 5 mins in fp line, ride for 5 mins, then proceed to next activity. If you alternate long wait/short wait lines, you dont even have downtime unless you go during a crazy busy week. When discussing non-physical disabilities It provides immediate gratification to items that cost the non-disabled hours.

I think its clear the issue is that there need to be a different system for physical vs. Non-physical disabilities. Skip every line is not fair, completely separate line for different vehicle is at least better.


----------



## DisneyNutMary

Sunnywho said:


> Um, assuming your child is verbal and nonautistic, I am quite sure it is easier.



Autistic or nonautistic, have you ever stood outside Dumbo with a stubborn three year old who did not understand why he can't go on right now?
I haven't walked in your shoes, you haven't walked in mine, don't assume easier if you haven't lived it, because I certainly don't assume anything about your situation.


----------



## DisneyNutMary

tinkerpea said:


> Just curious Does that mean your not happy with the way the current DAS works too then? Since the DAS holders are still at an advantage of not having to wait in a line?



Actually, I am quite happy with the explanations of how the DAS works. I haven't seen it first hand yet, but from what I read, if you and I approach an attraction at the same time, you standby, me with DAS, the system is designed to have us board at more or less that same time. Now, I say "designed to" because we all know that things work so much better in theory than in fact. While I wait nearby with my DAS, I can take care of my child's very difficult bathroom needs, feeding, or shopping. I doubt the playing field will ever be even- there will always be those whose needs are so complex, that even the GAC way, their day was often difficult and short.


----------



## infopurposesonly

DisneyNutMary said:


> Autistic or nonautistic, have you ever stood outside Dumbo with a stubborn three year old who did not understand why he can't go on right now?
> I haven't walked in your shoes, you haven't walked in mine, don't assume easier if you haven't lived it, because I certainly don't assume anything about your situation.



Actually, I've lived it.  One child with no significant medical issues, the other with very serious medical issues as well as autism.  Trust me, it's easier with the child who has no medical issues.


----------



## SueM in MN

I wanted to point out the Universal has been mentioned as using the system the OP suggests. If it is used at Universal, it is Universal in California.

Universal Studios/IOA in Florida uses basically the save system as Disney's DAS.


----------



## babydoll65

Ok, maybe I'm just not getting it but please explain. The way I'm reading it you would approach your first ride, get to ride it immediately. That ride had a 30min wait time so the cm stamps your DAS that you would need to wait 30min  to ride your next attraction. I'm not seeing where that is fair to anyone. What if you saw a wait time of 15 min for stitch and the cm stamps your DAS that you can ride your next attraction in 15 min and then go to space mountain which has a wait time of 60min. I essence you can ride that attraction with little to no wait. Does this make  sence to anyone here because I think I just confused myself.


----------



## Bean786

babydoll65 said:


> Ok, maybe I'm just not getting it but please explain. The way I'm reading it you would approach your first ride, get to ride it immediately. That ride had a 30min wait time so the cm stamps your DAS that you would need to wait 30min  to ride your next attraction. I'm not seeing where that is fair to anyone. What if you saw a wait time of 15 min for stitch and the cm stamps your DAS that you can ride your next attraction in 15 min and then go to space mountain which has a wait time of 60min. I essence you can ride that attraction with little to no wait. Does this make  sence to anyone here because I think I just confused myself.



But then you can't ride your next ride for 60 minutes. It's all the same


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## Bean786

SueM in MN said:


> I wanted to point out the Universal has been mentioned as using the system the OP suggests. If it is used at Universal, it is Universal in California.  Universal Studios/IOA in Florida uses basically the save system as Disney's DAS.



Universal Florida has a clear cut time limit..30 minutes and under.. You go to fastpass. Any more then that you get a return time. Disney has no clue. Some lady told me it has to be under 10. What is ever a 5 minute wait?  Come on. 10 minutes is crazy. Get a time frame and stick too it.  20 mins and under fastpass line or something. How can you plan when you don't know?


----------



## lovethattink

BroganMc said:


> Ok so if I understand this proposed system you'd be flipping it around to put the wait time at the end of the ride instead of the beginning. The benefit is that you're not starting your day with a wait and you'll be able to ride something at the end of the day when CMs are proving reluctant to give Return Times (i.e. in the last hour a park is open).
> 
> No I don't find that unfair to non-DAS people. You're still taking the same amount of time to do an attraction. The extra time for waiting is taken at the end and prohibits you from getting on something until you have completed that wait.
> 
> *One thing I found potentially unfair at DAS is that it does not account for the additional wait one encounters when using a wheelchair-accessible vehicle. Since there are so few of those it is common to encounter a line that can take another 20 mins or so above and beyond what a non-wheelchair car user encounters. This system will include that wait in it's post-ride Return Time.*
> 
> Example: I go to TSM at 2pm when there is a 90 min wait. I'm admitted into the FP line and then wait for the wheelchair vehicle another 30 mins to board (6 mins allotted for each party in front of me, and 5 parties waiting before me). I finish my ride at 2:40pm, but now I have until 3:30pm before I can go on my next attraction with DAS. I can go into One Man's Dream or maybe join the queue for Lights, Motor, Action!
> 
> Under current DAS rules, I'd get my Return Time at 2pm. Then return at 3:30pm, wait the extra 30 mins in the Wheelie Line to ride, and get out at 4:10pm. I've now spent longer than any guest to do the same thing.
> 
> (People really need to understand that if one has a disability that affects boarding, there is always extra time allotted to for every attraction. The mythical FOTL pass abuse was for folks who have no boarding issues.)
> 
> Also this system would allow me to get on TSM in the last hour DHS is open. Currently, CMs have been refusing to give Return Times because they'd be after the park closes. That's decidedly unfair to disabled DAS guests because everyone in Standby is allowed to ride as long as they're in the line before the park closes.






mistysue said:


> I guess my issue is that (at least at WDW) this does not split your wait, it eliminates it. You enter immediately, wait 5 mins in fp line, ride for 5 mins, then proceed to next activity. If you alternate long wait/short wait lines, you dont even have downtime unless you go during a crazy busy week. When discussing non-physical disabilities It provides immediate gratification to items that cost the non-disabled hours.
> 
> I think its clear the issue is that there need to be a different system for physical vs. Non-physical disabilities. Skip every line is not fair, completely separate line for different vehicle is at least better.



Jungle Cruise at WDW is another example. This was one of the attractions we got a return time for my son (he has several needs other than using the w/c). Waited the amount of time written on the card. Kept an eye on the family who entered the FP line while we were sent to the accessible boarding. That family got on the 2nd boat. We were told we just missed the boat, so it would be another 10 minute wait. Had there been more w/c ahead of us, it would have added another 10 minutes per chair. So we were lucky.

That was the first day of DAS. The FP lines were very empty that day.


----------



## Nixie

I get what you are saying, but I am not seeing how the new DAS is "unfair". I suppose for some it will not work, but for my family, it will work wonderfully esp. because it doesn't have a set return window. What I mean is, once the FP windows started being enforced, it was a little harder for our family to stick to the window. Many FPs went unused and were given away because something would happen and we just couldn't make it back to that ride in time. Yes, we can only hold one at a time, but if my 3 year old decides to have a complete meltdown and needs a snack RIGHT NOW, we will still be able to use the DAS as long as it past the initial wait time; even if it was supposed to be a 30 min wait and we are showing up 2 hours later. Or if my son decides he is just not up to the ride he previously was all excited about, I can just have the ride scratched out and get another one. With the reg. FP, I would have to wait until the next FP could be pulled; usually 2 hour window. Getting 3 to 4 rides done in the morning, to us, is an awesome morning.

My response is to the OP.


----------



## CoffeeCup

Bean786 said:


> But then you can't ride your next ride for 60 minutes. It's all the same



I don't think I understand either.  Even though you can't use your pass for 60 minutes, can't you go on other rides that have no wait or only a very short wait or see a show?    It seems to me that with  planning, you could go non stop and do much more than people having to wait in the regular line.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like a front of the line pass that easily could be abused.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just can't figure out how this system would be fair to people who have to wait in line.  If you add looping to this system, couldn't you ride two or three times while someone else is still in line waiting for their first ride?


----------



## Southerndisney

My understanding is the total wait time would be the same as the standby time for either the current DAS or the OP's suggested system. In the suggested change the wait outside of the line moves to after the ride.

Current DAS: wait outside of line/ wait in fast pass line/ ride
Suggest DAS: wait in fast pass line/ ride/ wait outside of line

In either system the DAS holder has the freedom to go a ride not using their DAS during their wait outside the ride. The person waiting in standby will not have this choice.


----------



## cmwade77

Hopediamant said:
			
		

> Delete post,remove comments and ban people.
> Business as usual. This forum is KING in this and all because people just are telling the truth.
> Over a decade people were told here on this forum that the GAC had no special privileges. In the mean while you all used it to get FOTL.
> Nothing changed ,nothing new here so move on people.


No, we didn't. Did some find a way to do that? Yes, but you must realize the vast majority of us were still waiting the length of the lines between rides. Some due to the way things worked and others due to our needs. In my opinion, I don't really care if it's my body telling me I must wait of if it's Disney. What I DO mind is Disney telling me that I MUST wait LONGER than everyone else, that I MUST walk more than everyone else and that I cannot get a Return Time at the end of the night, even though others can get in a standby line. 

These are the main issues that my suggestion aims to fix.


----------



## SKRUD

The WDW Cognitive Disabilities Guide (CDG) recommends using FP and FP+ to "plan my day". The assertion is that these, with the DASC, will allow me to be in the right place, at the right time, for my kids (2 w/ASD) to ride those must-do rides.

One problem I foresee (going to WDW in 2 weeks for the first time since the change) is the hard stop times on the FP and FP+. The DASC is open-ended, we just can't get another until they use or void the first. But if I have reserved a FP+ for Small World, one hour for a solo mom with 2 on the spectrum is very hard to plan. One child or the other may have a meltdown requiring cool down (that can take from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending how bad the situation), I may need to allow my kids vestibular (spinning) time or other visual stimming, and I dread the possibility of a toileting emergency for my 11 yo DS (which occasionally requires a trip to the locker, wherein fresh clothing is kept, not like a quick onesie change after a diaper blowout-trust me!). With my child's GAC, they rode when they got to an attraction, and nothing was on a timetable. (Needless to say, we almost NEVER planned a TS meal, as these were waaaay too easy to overshoot).

Is there an accommodation which will allow me, with my FP/FP+ planning, to show entrance CMs the kids' FP return time, explain the reason we were late (due to a disability) to override the hard return time? They still wait, like non DAS-users, for return times (or reserved times FP+) to begin, so it's not a FOTL accommodation, but if I'm 30 minutes past the hard stop for their return (which means they've really waited 90 minutes MORE than standby guests who arrived at the attraction at the same time as us) due to my child's disability, I won't be penalized and have to start their wait time all over again, or worse-leave the attraction altogether without letting them experience it, because we have another reserved attraction, thereby causing another meltdown, requiring more cooldown, which slips us past that reservation, too, which causes another meltdown...oh, you get my point!).


----------



## cmwade77

Southerndisney said:
			
		

> My understanding is the total wait time would be the same as the standby time for either the current DAS or the OP's suggested system. In the suggested change the wait outside of the line moves to after the ride.
> 
> Current DAS: wait outside of line/ wait in fast pass line/ ride
> Suggest DAS: wait in fast pass line/ ride/ wait outside of line
> 
> In either system the DAS holder has the freedom to ride a non fast pass ride during their wait outside the ride. The person waiting in standby will not have this choice.



Exactly, both systems have a person waiting, my suggestion simply changes when you wait to eliminate the problems that are present with the current system.


----------



## lovethattink

SKRUD said:


> The WDW Cognitive Disabilities Guide (CDG) recommends using FP and FP+ to "plan my day". The assertion is that these, with the DASC, will allow me to be in the right place, at the right time, for my kids (2 w/ASD) to ride those must-do rides.
> 
> One problem I foresee (going to WDW in 2 weeks for the first time since the change) is the hard stop times on the FP and FP+. The DASC is open-ended, we just can't get another until they use or void the first. But if I have reserved a FP+ for Small World, one hour for a solo mom with 2 on the spectrum is very hard to plan. One child or the other may have a meltdown requiring cool down (that can take from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending how bad the situation), I may need to allow my kids vestibular (spinning) time or other visual stimming, and I dread the possibility of a toileting emergency for my 11 yo DS (which occasionally requires a trip to the locker, wherein fresh clothing is kept, not like a quick onesie change after a diaper blowout-trust me!). With my child's GAC, they rode when they got to an attraction, and nothing was on a timetable. (Needless to say, we almost NEVER planned a TS meal, as these were waaaay too easy to overshoot).
> 
> Is there an accommodation which will allow me, with my FP/FP+ planning, to show entrance CMs the kids' FP return time, explain the reason we were late (due to a disability) to override the hard return time? They still wait, like non DAS-users, for return times (or reserved times FP+) to begin, so it's not a FOTL accommodation, but if I'm 30 minutes past the hard stop for their return (which means they've really waited 90 minutes MORE than standby guests who arrived at the attraction at the same time as us) due to my child's disability, I won't be penalized and have to start their wait time all over again, or worse-leave the attraction altogether without letting them experience it, because we have another reserved attraction, thereby causing another meltdown, requiring more cooldown, which slips us past that reservation, too, which causes another meltdown...oh, you get my point!).



At this point, no. There is no leniency on FP or FP+ return times.


----------



## afnaechiquita

Southerndisney said:


> My understanding is the total wait time would be the same as the standby time for either the current DAS or the OP's suggested system. In the suggested change the wait outside of the line moves to after the ride.
> 
> Current DAS: wait outside of line/ wait in fast pass line/ ride
> Suggest DAS: wait in fast pass line/ ride/ wait outside of line
> 
> In either system the DAS holder has the freedom to ride a non fast pass ride during their wait outside the ride. The person waiting in standby will not have this choice.



makes sense to me as well. i don't see why people are saying it is unfair to what the DAS currently is, other than they apparently do not understand the DAS-holder is always going to be waiting outside the line and thus free to do whatever is necessary during that time. for my family, that's going to be consoling a very strong 20-year-old into understanding why even though we were just at the entrance for X-attraction, we have to go do something else until it's time to go back and actually ride it. a growing experience for all involved, including bypassers.

it's the "my child without disabilities has to wait in line and it's unfair to us that we have to wait and your child with disabilities does not have to wait" mentality that is the crux of the complaints. i don't think that will ever go away, even with the current DAS system, because it's human nature for people to see the service being provided and not process "why do they get it and not i?" (and this isn't just with ADA-compliant services, even look at the "why did that person get a free cupcake and i didn't?" complaints. most often, people will always complain.) i do agree the GAC had to change, and i think the current DAS is at least a step in the right direction of controlling abuse, but there's nothing between what the OP is proposing and the current DAS that would make the abuse that does sneak through any more prevalent.


----------



## cmwade77

SKRUD said:
			
		

> The WDW Cognitive Disabilities Guide (CDG) recommends using FP and FP+ to "plan my day". The assertion is that these, with the DASC, will allow me to be in the right place, at the right time, for my kids (2 w/ASD) to ride those must-do rides.
> 
> One problem I foresee (going to WDW in 2 weeks for the first time since the change) is the hard stop times on the FP and FP+. The DASC is open-ended, we just can't get another until they use or void the first. But if I have reserved a FP+ for Small World, one hour for a solo mom with 2 on the spectrum is very hard to plan. One child or the other may have a meltdown requiring cool down (that can take from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending how bad the situation), I may need to allow my kids vestibular (spinning) time or other visual stimming, and I dread the possibility of a toileting emergency for my 11 yo DS (which occasionally requires a trip to the locker, wherein fresh clothing is kept, not like a quick onesie change after a diaper blowout-trust me!). With my child's GAC, they rode when they got to an attraction, and nothing was on a timetable. (Needless to say, we almost NEVER planned a TS meal, as these were waaaay too easy to overshoot).
> 
> Is there an accommodation which will allow me, with my FP/FP+ planning, to show entrance CMs the kids' FP return time, explain the reason we were late (due to a disability) to override the hard return time? They still wait, like non DAS-users, for return times (or reserved times FP+) to begin, so it's not a FOTL accommodation, but if I'm 30 minutes past the hard stop for their return (which means they've really waited 90 minutes MORE than standby guests who arrived at the attraction at the same time as us) due to my child's disability, I won't be penalized and have to start their wait time all over again, or worse-leave the attraction altogether without letting them experience it, because we have another reserved attraction, thereby causing another meltdown, requiring more cooldown, which slips us past that reservation, too, which causes another meltdown...oh, you get my point!).


I definitely do an I don't know if there is, but this would be a great question to ask on the official thread. 

I could see my suggested system workingbetter with such things, but I don't know what the official resoonse is right now.


----------



## richflour

WantToGoNow said:
			
		

> Seriously?



Well let me rephrase / you could be handicapped and go on space mountain , but not to the extent you would need a das .


----------



## Wishes Count

SKRUD said:


> The WDW Cognitive Disabilities Guide (CDG) recommends using FP and FP+ to "plan my day". The assertion is that these, with the DASC, will allow me to be in the right place, at the right time, for my kids (2 w/ASD) to ride those must-do rides.
> 
> One problem I foresee (going to WDW in 2 weeks for the first time since the change) is the hard stop times on the FP and FP+. The DASC is open-ended, we just can't get another until they use or void the first. But if I have reserved a FP+ for Small World, one hour for a solo mom with 2 on the spectrum is very hard to plan. One child or the other may have a meltdown requiring cool down (that can take from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending how bad the situation), I may need to allow my kids vestibular (spinning) time or other visual stimming, and I dread the possibility of a toileting emergency for my 11 yo DS (which occasionally requires a trip to the locker, wherein fresh clothing is kept, not like a quick onesie change after a diaper blowout-trust me!). With my child's GAC, they rode when they got to an attraction, and nothing was on a timetable. (Needless to say, we almost NEVER planned a TS meal, as these were waaaay too easy to overshoot).
> 
> Is there an accommodation which will allow me, with my FP/FP+ planning, to show entrance CMs the kids' FP return time, explain the reason we were late (due to a disability) to override the hard return time? They still wait, like non DAS-users, for return times (or reserved times FP+) to begin, so it's not a FOTL accommodation, but if I'm 30 minutes past the hard stop for their return (which means they've really waited 90 minutes MORE than standby guests who arrived at the attraction at the same time as us) due to my child's disability, I won't be penalized and have to start their wait time all over again, or worse-leave the attraction altogether without letting them experience it, because we have another reserved attraction, thereby causing another meltdown, requiring more cooldown, which slips us past that reservation, too, which causes another meltdown...oh, you get my point!).



You could always ask at the attraction if this were to happen. You could explain that your child has a disability and you had trouble getting to the attraction in the return window. The CM may let you in, it depends on the operational considerations at the attraction. It also might depend on the amount of time you are late. 30 minutes? probably okay. 3 hours? You are probably out of luck.

Additionally I would advise you to visit Guest Relations at one of their regional locations throughout the park and explain your situation. They are able to offer assistance as well, and can change your FP time or offer other assistance in these situations.


----------



## Sunnywho

Flipping the wait to after the ride might be easier on the CMs. Right now they have to sign the card, then approve the time when the guest comes back. Flipping the wait would mean they just interact one time, and the guest goes right in. It would also simplify things for the guest with disabilities. If the drawback is that it's vulnerable to abuse, then there's a situation where the abusers have made it harder for people with disabilities. Maybe the flipped-wait will be how it will work once DAS is incorporated into the Fastpass+ technology.


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## babydoll65

CoffeeCup said:


> I don't think I understand either.  Even though you can't use your pass for 60 minutes, can't you go on other rides that have no wait or only a very short wait or see a show?    It seems to me that with  planning, you could go non stop and do much more than people having to wait in the regular line.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like a front of the line pass that easily could be abused.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just can't figure out how this system would be fair to people who have to wait in line.  If you add looping to this system, couldn't you ride two or three times while someone else is still in line waiting for their first ride?



Accutally this is the way I was looking too. My mother could get a DAS for our next upcoming trip. If she could use it based on the way you have it set up then I would go to say tomorrowland, get a fp for space mountain, go to stitches great escape ( with a wait time of 15/20 minutes ) get her DAS stamped with her next wait time for ANY ride of 15/20 minutes, go over to space mountain, ride this ride with very little waiting then use my fp to ride it again in a short time. Seems like your getting a bit of a advantage over guest without a DAS. I thought with the current DAS, you are given a wait time equal to the standby wait time minus 15 minutes for THAT ride only.

I do believe though that if a family approachd a ride with a 15/20 minute standby wait that it is ridiculous to send that family away and tell them they can come back in five min. to ride. At that point they should be allowed on the ride.


----------



## Bean786

CoffeeCup said:


> I don't think I understand either.  Even though you can't use your pass for 60 minutes, can't you go on other rides that have no wait or only a very short wait or see a show?    It seems to me that with  planning, you could go non stop and do much more than people having to wait in the regular line.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like a front of the line pass that easily could be abused.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just can't figure out how this system would be fair to people who have to wait in line.  If you add looping to this system, couldn't you ride two or three times while someone else is still in line waiting for their first ride?



But isn't this what a fast pass does? You get 1 fastpass ( or with a DAS 1 return time) then can go ride other rides that have a shorter wait? Then return. The only advantage the DAS has is you can return any time after but you can only have 1 return time. Unlike a fastpass where you can get another 2 hours later right?


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## Rowanonfire

The people who are getting confused about this idea are confusing ME haha.

Right. I've used this system at UK parks. It's great. This is how it works. Say you go on a ride first thing that has a 70min queue. You are allowed straight on that first ride. Or if Disney's case you likely go through the FP line. Your card is marked as you board the ride with a time. If I went to board a ride with a 70 mins queue at 1pm, then on my card they would write 2.10pm. *I then cannot ride another ride using the handicapped queue until 2.10.* No ride at all unless I go via the standby queue. Regardless of waitime. So yes, someone using this system can go and do another ride via the standby queue, or go eat, or ride a FP ride, during this wait time. But that is true of the current DAS too. But you can only get one time on your DAS card at a time, and that wouldn't change.

It's basically, exactly the same system, apart from it's much easier for actual disabled guests. If you have a physical disability, it means you don't have to backtrack on yourself. For someone with a cognitive disability who finds walking away from a ride without riding difficult, this makes it much easier to avoid meltdowns as the parent or carer can just avoid any ride they need to until the time on the DAS has passed.

It really works very well in almost all UK parks. Now, bear in mind that here, you do have to provide proof of disability, so really, there is less room for abuse. That said, AT MOST, a disabled guest has the advantage of that one ride at the start of the day they can walk straight on too. But also bear in mind that they have already waited at guest services to get the pass. And then there will still be somewhat of a wait in the FP or handicapped line, and the current wait time is written as you board the ride. So that "advantage" evens itself out very quickly.

It really is a fantastic system. I wish Disney would consider implementing it, but I really don't see them changing the system again, which is a shame. I do hope they change it haha!


----------



## aaarcher86

The thing I see most people complaining about who don't like the new DAS is the wait. They can't wait before they can't wait after. They're at a loss with what they're supposed to do with their children during the 40 between rides or can't explain to them why they can't immediately go on the next ride. 

I don't think either system, suggested or current, is going to be acceptable for a great deal of people that are unhappy with the changes.


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## Rowanonfire

aaarcher86 said:


> The thing I see most people complaining about who don't like the new DAS is the wait. They can't wait before they can't wait after. They're at a loss with what they're supposed to do with their children during the 40 between rides or can't explain to them why they can't immediately go on the next ride.
> 
> I don't think either system, suggested or current, is going to be acceptable for a great deal of people that are unhappy with the changes.



This is perhaps true. Some people will never feel the system will work for them - which I find hard to understand, considering FP etc can still be used with a DAS. But just a little tweaking as has been mentioned can make the system easier for a lot of people are ARE very much willing to wait but can't perhaps do it in the traditional way, and struggle to get around the parks.


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## richflour

aaarcher86 said:
			
		

> The thing I see most people complaining about who don't like the new DAS is the wait. They can't wait before they can't wait after. They're at a loss with what they're supposed to do with their children during the 40 between rides or can't explain to them why they can't immediately go on the next ride.
> 
> I don't think either system, suggested or current, is going to be acceptable for a great deal of people that are unhappy with the changes.



How do these people explain the long wait for a plane or ride in the car .
 Everyone complaining feels they are entitled because they have a disability .
My child is wheelchair and vent dependent and Disney owes me nothing!


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## aaarcher86

Rowanonfire said:


> This is perhaps true. Some people will never feel the system will work for them - which I find hard to understand, considering FP etc can still be used with a DAS. But just a little tweaking as has been mentioned can make the system easier for a lot of people are ARE very much willing to wait but can't perhaps do it in the traditional way, and struggle to get around the parks.



I believe me, the 'I can't wait 30 minutes in between rides,' and 'what am I supposed to do and how am I supposed to explain waiting to my child' complaints are totally boggling for me. It's not so much here on the DIS, but other groups against the change. Lots of people who want to so 6 hours worth of things in only 3 hours worth if time because it's all they have. 

I think it's fantastic that Disney is letting people basically do anything they want instead of waiting in a traditional line. The ability to schedule FP+ and use the DAS return times is great and if done well, waiting will be minimal. I think it'll be tough to transition, and it's never fun getting something that is less than what it used to be but that's the way it goes. 

There's a comparison chart somewhere online if the different DAS cards at WDW, Universal, and Seaworld. Naturally since it's on a site against the Disney changes it lists Disney last, but they all seem pretty in line to me.


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## aaarcher86

richflour said:


> How do these people explain the long wait for a plane or ride in the car . Everyone complaining feels they are entitled because they have a disability .



You'd have to ask them. I wouldn't say everyone with a disability feels entitled but there of course will always be people who do.


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## disney david

Bean786 said:


> Universal Florida has a clear cut time limit..30 minutes and under.. You go to fastpass. Any more then that you get a return time. Disney has no clue. Some lady told me it has to be under 10. What is ever a 5 minute wait?  Come on. 10 minutes is crazy. Get a time frame and stick too it.  20 mins and under fastpass line or something. How can you plan when you don't know?



Disney could do that and people will still complain because it Disney. Universal can go out tonmorrow and change it to 10 just like Disney and no one will say a word and they will do it. But since it Disney everyone thinks Disney owes them something. The quicker people get gac and unlimited fast pass out of their mind they can the this system a try an see if it work. Disney is treated differently mostly their fault for going above and beyond all the time but they keep getting slapped in the face for doing it. Is this system perfect no should they raise it to 20 min or less go right on yes it be easier for them but when universal deals with how many guest Disney dose and  do half the things Disney dose then their be surge meant for Disney to follow universal.


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## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:


> The thing I see most people complaining about who don't like the new DAS is the wait. They can't wait before they can't wait after. They're at a loss with what they're supposed to do with their children during the 40 between rides or can't explain to them why they can't immediately go on the next ride.
> 
> I don't think either system, suggested or current, is going to be acceptable for a great deal of people that are unhappy with the changes.


No, what I, and most people on here are complaining about is having to wait *LONGER* than everyone else, which is what the current system has us doing. I also take issue with having to walk more than everyone else to get the assistance that I need.

Yes, there will be those that complain about waiting, but that is not what the vast majority of people are indeed complaining about. We simply want the wait times to be *EQUAL*.


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## alizesmom

I too think the big complaint is waiting. Why shouldn't people with disabilities wait as well? Even those with behavioral issues can be taught to accept change. After all, a vacation is a change from the norm unless you go every week. Your child has been taught to accept that change so they can learn. I'm not some parent who doesn't understand. My kids have both major physical disabilities and my daughter has autism as well. She wants to ride now and can't so major meltdown. She wants to stay on and can't, she needs to be physically dragged off. It's frustrating and embarrassing but it's the proper thing to do. Like it or not the "normal" guest has as much right as we do.


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## infopurposesonly

richflour said:


> How do these people explain the long wait for a plane or ride in the car .
> Everyone complaining feels they are entitled because they have a disability .
> My child is wheelchair and vent dependent and Disney owes me nothing!



That's easy.  For many, the plane trip is an enjoyable part of going to Disney.  Some kids are just as excited about flying as they are about the Disney attractions.  Not to mention, while flying they're not there in front of the rides wondering why they can't ride now.


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## lovethattink

aaarcher86 said:


> I believe me, the 'I can't wait 30 minutes in between rides,' and 'what am I supposed to do and how am I supposed to explain waiting to my child' complaints are totally boggling for me. It's not so much here on the DIS, but other groups against the change. Lots of people who want to so 6 hours worth of things in only 3 hours worth if time because it's all they have.
> 
> I think it's fantastic that Disney is letting people basically do anything they want instead of waiting in a traditional line. The ability to schedule FP+ and use the DAS return times is great and if done well, waiting will be minimal. I think it'll be tough to transition, and it's never fun getting something that is less than what it used to be but that's the way it goes.
> 
> There's a comparison chart somewhere online if the different DAS cards at WDW, Universal, and Seaworld. Naturally since it's on a site against the Disney changes it lists Disney last, but they all seem pretty in line to me.



I realize every child is different. This is just a suggestion of what worked for us. I found out what attraction ds wanted to ride. And one of us got his DAS return time without him even knowing about it, so he didn't know he was waiting. 

We have been to the parks 3 times since DAS started. The first time, the park was MK and he rode a total of 2 attractions once. The second day, was Epcot and he only rode Spaceship Earth, once. The third day was, Epcot again. This time riding Journey Into Imagination and Nemo, each only once. Changing the policy to the way cmwade77 suggests would have added one initial attraction if I'm understanding the suggestion?

Our challenge was finding things to do in air conditioned places to keep him entertained while we wait. Epcot's Future World isn't a problem. He loves spending time pattern walking the 2nd floor carpet at the Land, playing games at Innoventions, and those games after Spaceship Earth. MK was a bit trickier but we passed the time in Tortuga Tavern and Pecos Bills. He hates shopping, especially the lighting and noise, so stores are a last resort. At DHS it's One Man's Dream and the Animation building. Not sure where or what we'll do in between at the AK? But once it gets much cooler out, he'll be able to spend more time doing the Wilderness Explorer thing at AK, Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom and the new pirate interactive game, and Agent P at Epcot.


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## Sunnywho

The majority of the complaining about the DAS that I read is from people without disabilities!

The problem that I see is that disabilities are not a one-size-fits-all. So when designing a system like DAS, it's either going to err on the side of being too generous or not generous enough.


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## aaarcher86

cmwade77 said:


> No, what I, and most people on here are complaining about is having to wait LONGER than everyone else, which is what the current system has us doing. I also take issue with having to walk more than everyone else to get the assistance that I need.  Yes, there will be those that complain about waiting, but that is not what the vast majority of people are indeed complaining about. We simply want the wait times to be EQUAL.



I disagree with that. Just my opinion. I think the non wheelchair DAS users have a relatively equal wait time. Wheelchairs are a whole different ball game because of the fewer accessible cars. But someone getting a return time of standby minus 10 minutes is going to wait nearly the same time as someone in the standby. 

  I've seen very few people worried about waiting longer over waiting in general. I think the current system with the offering of a single immediate FP for the first ride to help with that first initial wait would be fine.


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## disney david

infopurposesonly said:


> That's easy.  For many, the plane trip is an enjoyable part of going to Disney.  Some kids are just as excited about flying as they are about the Disney attractions.  Not to mention, while flying they're not there in front of the rides wondering why they can't ride now.



But why not make waiting for the ride a enjoyable  thing like waiting or the flight. if they see the plane and have to wait don't they wonder why they can't get on the plane and go to Disney right now.


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## infopurposesonly

Sunnywho said:


> The majority of the complaining about the DAS that I read is from people without disabilities!
> 
> The problem that I see is that disabilities are not a one-size-fits-all. So when designing a system like DAS, it's either going to err on the side of being too generous or not generous enough.



This!


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## sharadoc

Generalization never works. There have been threads in the past about "you can teach your kid..." But cognitive disability is very individual and difficult to understand.

As I have said, it's not the waiting that's the problem, it's the change. A person who doesn't understand the word "why" is not going to understand "why" it's different from the last time they went. I just wish that Disney had some sort of a transitional period from the GAC to the DAS. The solution proposed here could be perfect for that and I would fully support it and welcome it!

I am concerned about our trip, I worry about the stress it could create, but I am optimistic that we can plan it in such a way as to make it less obvious for our DS. I wish Disney would consider the idea put forth here.


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## disney david

sharadoc said:


> Generalization never works. There have been threads in the past about "you can teach your kid..." But cognitive disability is very individual and difficult to understand.
> 
> As I have said, it's not the waiting that's the problem, it's the change. A person who doesn't understand the word "why" is not going to understand "why" it's different from the last time they went. I just wish that Disney had some sort of a transitional period from the GAC to the DAS. The solution proposed here could be perfect for that and I would fully support it and welcome it!
> 
> I am concerned about our trip, I worry about the stress it could create, but I am optimistic that we can plan it in such a way as to make it less obvious for our DS. I wish Disney would consider the idea put forth here.



I wouldn't worry Disney has been and alway will be their for the guest. IF they put this system in place it is still change so what the difference one you wait like everyone else and one you wait less but still wait.  Disney needed to get people of the gac as soon as they could if they did transitioned them they never get them on the  new system. 

On average guest using the das will get on more rides then guest not using the das.


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## Talking Hands

richflour said:


> Deaf people are more than capable of waiting in line as hearing folks but how does some one with knees that are shot maneuver in and out of such an awkward ride by the way I do know all about handicap people my son is hearing visually impaired bound to a wheelchair needs a machine to help him breath mental and physically impaired its people like your family that make it difficult for people like my son to have a good time at a wonderful place like Disney


Just to be clear, hearing loss is only one of the challenges I face.  If it were just deafness no DAS would be needed.


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## KPeveler

Hopediamant said:


> Delete post,remove comments and ban people.
> Business as usual. This forum is KING in this and all because people just are telling the truth.
> Over a decade people were told here on this forum that the GAC had no special privileges. In the mean while you all used it to get FOTL.
> Nothing changed ,nothing new here so move on people.



Actually this is not true at all.  The only comment I removed was offensive - all other posts remained.  This is a moderated board, and on this particular forum we are especially careful to promote a supportive, positive environment.  If this displeases you, you are certainly welcome to post in one of the many DAS complaint threads going elsewhere on the boards.

And we were telling the exact truth - the GAC is NOT a front of the line pass.  My friend's pass said she needed to sit in the front row of shows, because she had a vision impairment.  Another friend had one that said she could not climb stairs, which occur in only a few queues.

No matter what stamp one had, there was NO immediate access.  There were some CMs who started just sending people with some stamps directly into the FP line, and that became almost standard practice, but it was not a guarantee.  

I can tell you that from personal experience, as I have waited for an hour or more (much long than the standby time) in a queue that was just in the middle of a walkway for Pirates - and that WAS the "alternate entry."

Yes, some people got faster access at some rides at some times of year, but it was NOT a guarantee!  It did NOT mean immediate access.  We did not allow posts declaring it was partly to curb any potential abuse (DISboard posts are available on Google) AND to prevent confusion by families when they reached the park.

Despite what you may think, Sue and I do not edit threads on a whim - we are very careful.  And I actually cannot think of someone who was banned.  We are two people who have many other things going on in our lives who volunteer to help keep the information in this forum accurate and to keep the dialogue civil.  We want to keep this a supportive environment for anyone who has a question.


----------



## richflour

Talking Hands said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, hearing loss is only one of the challenges I face.  If it were just deafness no DAS would be needed.



I was responding to someone else that deleted their post


----------



## KPeveler

richflour said:


> Well let me rephrase / you could be handicapped and go on space mountain , but not to the extent you would need a das .



I tried to be clear before, but I guess I need to explain further.

You do not get to decide who is "disabled enough" to get a DAS.

You do not get to decide who is "sick enough"or "bad enough" or any "enough" to qualify as a person with a disability.

You do not get to decide who is "worse" than someone else.

That is not a game we *ever* play on this forum.  Not only can you not tell everything about another person based on a few posts online, but you do not live in their bodies and lives.  

You are not the only parent with a child with a disability on this forum.  You are not the only person who has dealt with a disability on this forum.  

There are many different forms and experiences of disability, and trying to create a scale, apparently based on the needs of your child, will not help anyone.  I have a disability, I require a DAS card, and I ride Space Mountain every chance I get.  I love Space Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Splash... and I love Winnie the Pooh and Monster's Inc.  

My disability means I use a wheelchair, but that does not meet all my needs.  I also have, for example, severe problems with heat, which makes living in SoCal all the more fun.  This is one reason I use the DAS - many of the queues in DL/DCA would result in my passing out and spiking a fever.  That does not mean I do not enjoy the ride - it means the way the queue is designed is dangerous for my disability.

My disability is different than your son's.  I am largely independent and can go on some thrill rides sometimes.  That does not mean I am "less" disabled than your son, or anyone else.

I do not discount your experiences at all, and you are right that Disney owes you nothing.  But Disney is required to provide appropriate accommodations for disabilities as stated in the ADA - that is a right, not being owed.  

In the future, please keep this in mind when posting on this forum.  This is supposed to be a supportive environment, not a place where people feel judged.  Please ask questions and provide any answers you may have from your own experiences, but please refrain from judging others, their needs, and their abilities.  

This goes for anyone wishing to post in the disABILITIES forum.


----------



## KPeveler

Once again, this thread is for ideas to improve the DAS system, not to judge one another.

Please keep the discussion civil and supportive - I really do not want to have to close this thread.


----------



## curemyreed

cmwade77 said:


> No, there is no return time with my system. You go straight on the first ride, then wait the length of that line before going on the second. Then you wait the length of the second line before going on the third. This continues on until the end of the day.



Thanks for the explanation! Now I get what you are saying.


----------



## kritter47

I don't think the "go on a ride immediately, then wait the amount of time afterward" would work in the long run because it's much more inviting for abuse when it comes to the headliner-type rides with long waits.

Let's take Hollywood Studios as an example. A family with a DAS arrives from another park in the early afternoon with high wait times. They can easily save two hours of park time by hitting the ride with the longest wait last, then leaving. So they hit ToT (50 minute wait) first, then see a show while waiting for the pass is up. Then they hit RnR (75 minute wait), ride something with a short standby, watch a street scene and eat while waiting for the pass to come up. Then they ride TSMM (120 minute wait) and leave the park. They have "saved" two hours of wait time over a normal guest, and that's a tremendous advantage that's not present with the way the system is set up now. Those types of advantages invite abuse and over-use, which leads to overcrowding of the system like happened with the GAC.

What might be a happy medium is to somehow track the time waiting in accessable lines on the stamp (so you get a stamp for your return time, then a written time of when you arrive and the DAS is scanned and a written time when you get on the ride). If that is longer than 15 minutes, you get a "credit" of time toward the next wait (so if you waited 25 minutes after entering line, you get a 10 minute credit toward the next DAS time you pick up, making what would have been a 45 minute wait a 35 minute one).

That is a lot more work for CMs and may not mesh well if the system ever goes fully automated with the RFID technology (though it could also possibly be easy with check in points at the start of the accessible/alternate entrance line and at the end of it before boarding), but it would be much less open for abuse than the proposed system we're talking about here.


----------



## Nixie

What I keep hearing over and over again is the inconstancy of Disney to implement their own policies. I feel like the GAC abuse was because the CMs at the rides were taking the easy way out and just ushering all through the FP lines. Disney wanted to put a stop to that by making the DAS, but the DAS now only works for a very select few needs. Everyone else has been told to take it up with the CMs standing outside the rides, which by the reports, are being inconsistent as ever on how different needs are being handled. To me, it sounds more of a Disney training issue than anything else. Why can't the new system for helping people who can't wait in the traditional lines be used for those that need it, but the GAC stamps for things like front row seating, moving walkways stopped, etc. The people with those needs don't necessarily need the alternative waiting areas, but wouldn't have to reexplain everything to every CM they see. They might need to tell the CM a little bit to help get the right accommodations, but at least their card with it's stamp would be a good starting place (if that makes sense). I think Disney needs to do some more training on what their exact policy is to handle each sort of disability that can be present to them. Of course, it won't be the exact same every single time, but it sounds almost like most CMs are just making it up as they go.


----------



## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:


> I disagree with that. Just my opinion. I think the non wheelchair DAS users have a relatively equal wait time. Wheelchairs are a whole different ball game because of the fewer accessible cars. But someone getting a return time of standby minus 10 minutes is going to wait nearly the same time as someone in the standby.
> 
> I've seen very few people worried about waiting longer over waiting in general. I think the current system with the offering of a single immediate FP for the first ride to help with that first initial wait would be fine.


Actually, many of us have been complaining about waiting longer at the following attractions:
Pirates of the Caribbean
Splash Mountain (if you can't do stairs)
Space Mountain (DLR)
Peter Pan
it's a small world
Alice in Wonderland (DLR)
Storybook Land Canal Boats (DLR)
California Screamin' (if you can't do stairs)
Indiana Jones (the FP line is long no matter what and if you can't do stairs, it is even longer when returning)
Star Tours (if you can't walk up the very steep ramp)

I am sure that I have missed many of them, but on average these will take a minimum of 20-30 additional minutes when you return (in addition to any FP waits, when applicable), with some up to an hour+ when returning.

All attractions with FP, as there will generally be a 10-15 minute wait for FP return lines, which means there is a 10-15 minute additional wait upon returning.


----------



## richflour

KPeveler said:
			
		

> I tried to be clear before, but I guess I need to explain further.
> 
> You do not get to decide who is "disabled enough" to get a DAS.
> 
> You do not get to decide who is "sick enough"or "bad enough" or any "enough" to qualify as a person with a disability.
> 
> You do not get to decide who is "worse" than someone else.
> 
> That is not a game we ever play on this forum.  Not only can you not tell everything about another person based on a few posts online, but you do not live in their bodies and lives.
> 
> You are not the only parent with a child with a disability on this forum.  You are not the only person who has dealt with a disability on this forum.
> 
> There are many different forms and experiences of disability, and trying to create a scale, apparently based on the needs of your child, will not help anyone.  I have a disability, I require a DAS card, and I ride Space Mountain every chance I get.  I love Space Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Splash... and I love Winnie the Pooh and Monster's Inc.
> 
> My disability means I use a wheelchair, but that does not meet all my needs.  I also have, for example, severe problems with heat, which makes living in SoCal all the more fun.  This is one reason I use the DAS - many of the queues in DL/DCA would result in my passing out and spiking a fever.  That does not mean I do not enjoy the ride - it means the way the queue is designed is dangerous for my disability.
> 
> My disability is different than your son's.  I am largely independent and can go on some thrill rides sometimes.  That does not mean I am "less" disabled than your son, or anyone else.
> 
> I do not discount your experiences at all, and you are right that Disney owes you nothing.  But Disney is required to provide appropriate accommodations for disabilities as stated in the ADA - that is a right, not being owed.
> 
> In the future, please keep this in mind when posting on this forum.  This is supposed to be a supportive environment, not a place where people feel judged.  Please ask questions and provide any answers you may have from your own experiences, but please refrain from judging others, their needs, and their abilities.
> 
> This goes for anyone wishing to post in the disABILITIES forum.




Tha ada does not require disney or any other company to provide quicker line service .
I am in know way judging someones disabilities or to saying one is greater than the other .but to keep harping on how some cant enjoy themself if they have to wait is absurd. 
Disney made this change because of massive abuse of the gac.
It is impossible for disney to accommodate every disability. 
Should I complain because disney has not made a ride like space mountain acessable to my child, no I will simply enjoy the ones that they have made acessable to him.
Disney still goes over and beyond what the ada requires.  For that we will contiune to vacation at disney. 
I posted the previous post without thinking I know that you can have disability and still ride space mountain. 
It is the sense of entitlement that some of the posters have that makes me upset


----------



## WantToGoNow

richflour said:
			
		

> Well let me rephrase / you could be handicapped and go on space mountain , but not to the extent you would need a das .



My dd has 4 different heart conditions as well as other problems.  She probably shouldn't ride Space Mountain but she does.  She is disabled and did have a DAS that we barely used.


----------



## richflour

WantToGoNow said:
			
		

> My dd has 4 different heart conditions as well as other problems.  She probably shouldn't ride Space Mountain but she does.  She is disabled and did have a DAS that we barely used.



I am glad your dd can ride . If it makes her happy this is all that matters.
I didnt mean to offend .


----------



## afnaechiquita

lovethattink said:


> I realize every child is different. This is just a suggestion of what worked for us. I found out what attraction ds wanted to ride. And one of us got his DAS return time without him even knowing about it, so he didn't know he was waiting.



i thought that the DAS-holder had to be present when getting the return time? if not, that will eliminate the "oh here we are at TOT but we have to come back in an hour and let me try to explain that" issue for people traveling in a 2:1 group (because if it's just you and the DAS-holder, you can't avoid that). 



Nixie said:


> What I keep hearing over and over again is the inconstancy of Disney to implement their own policies. I feel like the GAC abuse was because the CMs at the rides were taking the easy way out and just ushering all through the FP lines. Disney wanted to put a stop to that by making the DAS, but the DAS now only works for a very select few needs. Everyone else has been told to take it up with the CMs standing outside the rides, which by the reports, are being inconsistent as ever on how different needs are being handled. To me, it sounds more of a Disney training issue than anything else. *Why can't the new system for helping people who can't wait in the traditional lines be used for those that need it, but the GAC stamps for things like front row seating, moving walkways stopped, etc. The people with those needs don't necessarily need the alternative waiting areas, but wouldn't have to reexplain everything to every CM they see. *They might need to tell the CM a little bit to help get the right accommodations, but at least their card with it's stamp would be a good starting place (if that makes sense). I think Disney needs to do some more training on what their exact policy is to handle each sort of disability that can be present to them. Of course, it won't be the exact same every single time, but it sounds almost like most CMs are just making it up as they go.



this is what sounds to be like a big problem reading through this thread. i don't understand why they got rid of the stamps entirely when the stamps were a universal communication tool to tell the CMs what to do. now, if you are not able to adequately communicate to the CM (whether it be an issue with your explanation or the CM's inability to comprehend that there are other problems than "i can't wait in line") the needs that were previously stamped on the card, you're out of luck like the PP at it's tough to be a bug. i definitely think the stamps should be brought back, but as an aid to the current system.


----------



## disney david

afnaechiquita said:


> i thought that the DAS-holder had to be present when getting the return time? if not, that will eliminate the "oh here we are at TOT but we have to come back in an hour and let me try to explain that" issue for people traveling in a 2:1 group (because if it's just you and the DAS-holder, you can't avoid that).
> 
> this is what sounds to be like a big problem reading through this thread. i don't understand why they got rid of the stamps entirely when the stamps were a universal communication tool to tell the CMs what to do. now, if you are not able to adequately communicate to the CM (whether it be an issue with your explanation or the CM's inability to comprehend that there are other problems than "i can't wait in line") the needs that were previously stamped on the card, you're out of luck like the PP at it's tough to be a bug. i definitely think the stamps should be brought back, but as an aid to the current system.



No the das holder dose not need to be present to get the return time  they do to ride it. So you could take the das get the return time then when ready you all go on the ride.


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## lovethattink

afnaechiquita said:


> i thought that the DAS-holder had to be present when getting the return time? if not, that will eliminate the "oh here we are at TOT but we have to come back in an hour and let me try to explain that" issue for people traveling in a 2:1 group (because if it's just you and the DAS-holder, you can't avoid that).




Doing it stealth as we did, totally eliminated the tease of here's the ride but you can't go on it. And your right, 2:1 it works fine. The DAS holder only has to be there to ride. Not to get a time. 

1:1 it could be tough or impossible.


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## aaarcher86

cmwade77 said:


> Actually, many of us have been complaining about waiting longer at the following attractions: Pirates of the Caribbean Splash Mountain (if you can't do stairs) Space Mountain (DLR) Peter Pan it's a small world Alice in Wonderland (DLR) Storybook Land Canal Boats (DLR) California Screamin' (if you can't do stairs) Indiana Jones (the FP line is long no matter what and if you can't do stairs, it is even longer when returning) Star Tours (if you can't walk up the very steep ramp)  I am sure that I have missed many of them, but on average these will take a minimum of 20-30 additional minutes when you return (in addition to any FP waits, when applicable), with some up to an hour+ when returning.  All attractions with FP, as there will generally be a 10-15 minute wait for FP return lines, which means there is a 10-15 minute additional wait upon returning.



Aren't you referring to wheelchair waits though? I've never encountered a regular FP line  that long.   

While you're system may offer a solution for wheelchairs that's easier, the non wheelchair users don't encounter this with the DAS. If the FP line is 30 minutes long then all the FP returners are experiencing the same wait.

I'm not missing posts here, but I'm going off a great many posts I've seen on other venues which far outnumber the posts here saying the waits are longer.


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## KPeveler

aaarcher86 said:


> Aren't you referring to wheelchair waits though? I've never encountered a regular FP line  that long.
> 
> While you're system may offer a solution for wheelchairs that's easier, the non wheelchair users don't encounter this with the DAS. If the FP line is 30 minutes long then all the FP returners are experiencing the same wait.
> 
> I'm not missing posts here, but I'm going off a great many posts I've seen on other venues which far outnumber the posts here saying the waits are longer.



Even if we consider DCA, where all queues are mainstreamed - yes, all people returning with a FP encounter a 30 minute wait, even those of us with a wheelchair. 

The inequality that the PP means is that when we get a DAS return time, it is for the entire stand-by wait.  And the DAS is NOT a FP.  Yes, people are sent in the FP lines, but that is because that is the easiest way to get the person to the ride (gets too confusing going in most exits if that can even be done).

The DAS is supposed to ensure that all guests wait approximately (and by this Disney means within 10 minutes margin of error) the same time.  But if I get a DAS return time for Racers (120 minutes) - that 120 minutes is measured from when a guest enters the queue to when they board the ride.  So when I get a DAS return time (for 110 minutes - they give me a little travel time),  I have already waited as long as any other guest who entered the ride at the time I did (getting my time = entering the line).

When I return 120 minutes later, I should be getting on the ride within minutes.  Instead, I am often faced with a 30+ minute FP queue.  Now I am waiting at least 150 minutes, and sometimes even longer because I have a wheelchair and a DAS.

This is where the inequality is happening.  And it is happening everywhere.  I know the system is only two weeks old, but this happens to me every time I return to a ride, whether I have a DAS card or a wheelchair return time.

With the wheelchair return times, I am given a time that is equal (or sometimes less, this varies by CM) to the stand-by time.  Again, I have no problem waiting my turn.  I usually sit near the place where I go in with my wheelchair, as I am a manual wheelchair user and I cannot push myself in circles all day.  Let's say I want to go on Peter Pan.  I am given a wait time of 40 minutes.  I may ride an attraction with a shorter queue, like Snow White, but I generally will not leave the area (again, pushing myself).

I then return to Peter Pan 40 minutes later, and there is always a line.  The last time I went, there was a line with 5 wheelchairs in it.  There were other parties but I counted 5 wheelchairs or ECVs.  In Fantasyland, there is generally only 1 wheelchair user allowed on a ride at a time, as is the case with Peter Pan.  It is a 4 minute ride, and allowing for time to get on and off, it takes about 6 minutes for each wheelchair party to enter, ride, and leave.  That means I come back after 40 minutes and I am in a 30 minute line.  Everyone in front of me has a return ticket as well, so we are all waiting.  Now instead of me waiting 40 minutes as I should, I am waiting 70.

There is this idea that people who get these return times are doing all kinds of other things during our "wait time" - but this really is not true, especially for wheelchair users.  Yes, I may sit in the entrance of a store or someplace like that, but almost no ride is accessible.  Transferring takes energy.  And I am pushing myself all day.  

Even if someone was with me, and I was being pushed by them (I prefer pushing myself - I am an adult, not a child in a stroller), THAT person gets tired too.  

I understand the wait times, and I have no problems with the DAS so far.

I DO have problems with the wheelchair return times - there is no end time, and no indication for the CMs how many people will be needing the transfer vehicle or wheelchair vehicle and when they will be returning.  

Perhaps there needs to be an end time to the wheelchair return tickets - make them a little more like FPs.  This would space out the wheelchair returns, like they did with Racers, and eliminate the hoards of people showing up at key times (after parades, after fireworks, etc). Also CMs would know about how many people needing the wheelchair vehicle will be showing up and when, and they can be spaced out (for instance, if two people in a row need the wheelchair boat at Jungle Cruise, give a return time of 3:00 to one, and 3:05 to the next).  

I am not sure that would solve a lot of problems, but something needs to be done, because the queues are crazy right now.  

Also, something needs to be done so that those of us in manual chairs are not punished for touring solo.

I am not saying I have the answers, I am just saying that the system became less fair for folks in wheelchairs.


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## aaarcher86

I'd agree that wheelchair lines need to be treated differently because of the extended waits and extra time in waiting for an accessible vehicle. I'm not familiar with Disneyland so my experiences are based off of WDW FP lines.


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## BroganMc

lovethattink said:


> Jungle Cruise at WDW is another example. This was one of the attractions we got a return time for my son (he has several needs other than using the w/c). Waited the amount of time written on the card. Kept an eye on the family who entered the FP line while we were sent to the accessible boarding. That family got on the 2nd boat. We were told we just missed the boat, so it would be another 10 minute wait. Had there been more w/c ahead of us, it would have added another 10 minutes per chair. So we were lucky.
> 
> That was the first day of DAS. The FP lines were very empty that day.



There are many similar stories. Pretty much every attraction where there is a special ride vehicle involved will incur longer waits than what one finds using FP or Standby.

One of the reasons CMs instructed me to ask for a GAC years ago was because they recognized I'd be waiting much longer than everyone else without one.

I've been hoping Disney would take the opportunity with DAS to recognize and address this issue so wheelies would not be so disadvantaged. Giving them access to the FP line under GAC was at best a band-aid solution. It meant wheelies waited less than Standby (when waits were over 30 mins) but more than FP. DAS takes that solution away and leaves wheelies without any compensation.

This idea would at least allow a wheelie a chance to catch up via the first ride of the day. They'll probably see diminishing returns with subsequent rides but it'll average out to something equal to non-wheelie guests. One reason I never felt guilty using a GAC is because I knew what time I saved there would be spent on the wheelie line.


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## AOSIG

SKRUD said:


> The WDW Cognitive Disabilities Guide (CDG) recommends using FP and FP+ to "plan my day". The assertion is that these, with the DASC, will allow me to be in the right place, at the right time, for my kids (2 w/ASD) to ride those must-do rides.
> 
> One problem I foresee (going to WDW in 2 weeks for the first time since the change) is the hard stop times on the FP and FP+. The DASC is open-ended, we just can't get another until they use or void the first. But if I have reserved a FP+ for Small World, one hour for a solo mom with 2 on the spectrum is very hard to plan. One child or the other may have a meltdown requiring cool down (that can take from 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending how bad the situation), I may need to allow my kids vestibular (spinning) time or other visual stimming, and I dread the possibility of a toileting emergency for my 11 yo DS (which occasionally requires a trip to the locker, wherein fresh clothing is kept, not like a quick onesie change after a diaper blowout-trust me!). With my child's GAC, they rode when they got to an attraction, and nothing was on a timetable. (Needless to say, we almost NEVER planned a TS meal, as these were waaaay too easy to overshoot).
> 
> Is there an accommodation which will allow me, with my FP/FP+ planning, to show entrance CMs the kids' FP return time, explain the reason we were late (due to a disability) to override the hard return time? They still wait, like non DAS-users, for return times (or reserved times FP+) to begin, so it's not a FOTL accommodation, but if I'm 30 minutes past the hard stop for their return (which means they've really waited 90 minutes MORE than standby guests who arrived at the attraction at the same time as us) due to my child's disability, I won't be penalized and have to start their wait time all over again, or worse-leave the attraction altogether without letting them experience it, because we have another reserved attraction, thereby causing another meltdown, requiring more cooldown, which slips us past that reservation, too, which causes another meltdown...oh, you get my point!).



I have had all the same except only one child is autistic. I would try to use FP instead of GAC/old system... Problem was that the computer knew you had missed your ride time so my guess is it would take a supervisor to go in manually and override the system. Happened once to me on Soarin we had a situation...she said just this time. That happened a few months ago. So my guess is they might let you ride but no more FP for 2 hours.


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## KPeveler

BroganMc said:


> There are many similar stories. Pretty much every attraction where there is a special ride vehicle involved will incur longer waits than what one finds using FP or Standby.
> 
> One of the reasons CMs instructed me to ask for a GAC years ago was because they recognized I'd be waiting much longer than everyone else without one.
> 
> I've been hoping Disney would take the opportunity with DAS to recognize and address this issue so wheelies would not be so disadvantaged. Giving them access to the FP line under GAC was at best a band-aid solution. It meant wheelies waited less than Standby (when waits were over 30 mins) but more than FP. DAS takes that solution away and leaves wheelies without any compensation.
> 
> This idea would at least allow a wheelie a chance to catch up via the first ride of the day. They'll probably see diminishing returns with subsequent rides but it'll average out to something equal to non-wheelie guests. One reason I never felt guilty using a GAC is because I knew what time I saved there would be spent on the wheelie line.



Pretty much....  and it is even worse in DL where the wheelchair lines are already separate.  

The DAS is trying to be one-size-fits-all and that is not really how people work.  Most of it is fine, except I have a wheelchair too, and there is no accommodation made for that.

For example, when I returned to Haunted Mansion with a DAS return time, it was just after dark, but not after any of the fireworks or Fantasmic shows.  If I had shown my DAS and been able to walk, I would have gone right in.  As it was, there were already 3 people with wheelchairs in the building (the limit), and 4 waiting by the ghost-horse hearse, which is used as a wheelchair holding area.  My party and I had to wait (with others) outside the entrance to the attraction, but there was nowhere to wait.  What used to be the wheelchair overflow queue was now the wheelchair return time station and stroller parking.

I had a DAS, so technically anyone of the 4 in front of me with a wheelchair return ticket should have had to wait for me, but there is no real way of doing this in a packed queue in the dark!  (And I had already been part of a CM being yelled at by guests when DAS card holders went in front of others).  Even if they wanted to, there was no way of getting the DAS people separated from the others.  

It took me 30 minutes just to get into the building.  And this with after a 90 minute DAS wait.

Something similar happened at Jungle Cruise and Small World - I happened to return at a time when someone else who needed the wheelchair boat did, so I had to wait longer (and this was after making it through the wheelchair returnee line).

I also have no idea how they plan on making the DAS system work in WDW long term without kiosks or the ability to get ride times without going all the way to the ride.  Again, the system actively discriminates again wheelies, especially solo manual wheelchair users, or people who do not have the battery power to go in circles all day.


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## cmwade77

This is exactly what the system that I have suggested would fix. Yes at HM, you would have still had the 30 minute wait at the attraction. But since the standby line was 60 minutes, you would only have another 30 minutes to wait after going on the ride, since you already waited 30 minutes before going on the ride. 

This your wait time would be exactly equal to everyone else, give or take 10 minutes or so, depending on how accurate the posted wait time is.

This system would also eliminate the need to go in circles. 

If anyone thinks this system makes sense, I would strongly recommend writting Disney and letting them know via the email on the official link, which is posted on either of the official threads. I am on my phone right now, so I can't find the link and paste it in here very readily.


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## ttintagel

> Why can't the new system for helping people who can't wait in the traditional lines be used for those that need it, but the GAC stamps for things like front row seating, moving walkways stopped, etc. The people with those needs don't necessarily need the alternative waiting areas, but wouldn't have to reexplain everything to every CM they see. They might need to tell the CM a little bit to help get the right accommodations, but at least their card with it's stamp would be a good starting place





> this is what sounds to be like a big problem reading through this thread. i don't understand why they got rid of the stamps entirely when the stamps were a universal communication tool to tell the CMs what to do. now, if you are not able to adequately communicate to the CM (whether it be an issue with your explanation or the CM's inability to comprehend that there are other problems than "i can't wait in line") the needs that were previously stamped on the card, you're out of luck like the PP at it's tough to be a bug. i definitely think the stamps should be brought back, but as an aid to the current system



Yeah, the more I read, the more it seems like the new system is set up to address one issue and one issue alone, and anybody with any other need is just on their own to fend for themselves, maybe with whatever help any CM they happen to be able to flag down feels the whim to give them.


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## cmwade77

richflour said:


> Tha ada does not require disney or any other company to provide quicker line service .
> I am in know way judging someones disabilities or to saying one is greater than the other .but to keep harping on how some cant enjoy themself if they have to wait is absurd.
> Disney made this change because of massive abuse of the gac.
> It is impossible for disney to accommodate every disability.
> Should I complain because disney has not made a ride like space mountain acessable to my child, no I will simply enjoy the ones that they have made acessable to him.
> Disney still goes over and beyond what the ada requires.  For that we will contiune to vacation at disney.
> I posted the previous post without thinking I know that you can have disability and still ride space mountain.
> It is the sense of entitlement that some of the posters have that makes me upset


Actually, even according to Disney, current ADA guidelines state that the waits must be as close to equal as possible.

My comment comes not from having to wait, but from having to wait longer and the other inequalities in the system.


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## cmwade77

ttintagel said:


> Yeah, the more I read, the more it seems like the new system is set up to address one issue and one issue alone, and anybody with any other need is just on their own to fend for themselves, maybe with whatever help any CM they happen to be able to flag down feels the whim to give them.


I agree, those that need alternate waits should get something similar to what there is now or what I suggest in my original post and all others get the old GAC with a stamp that tells the CMs what the needs are, such as low vision, etc.

Right now things are not being applied equally.


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## CPT Tripss

I'm a little late to the discussion and the thread is a bit confusing. I read the first and last pages.  As I understand the OP's proposal.  I:
1- Go to a ride, show my DAS and then get admitted immediately.  
2- Then at the exit, they note on my DAS the next time I am allowed to ride anything in order to make up for the wait I skipped.
3- At that time I go to my next ride and the process repeats.

If that is correct, I have some concerns/problems.
1- How does the CM at the exit know I have a DAS?
2- How does the CM at the next ride, which may have a short wait, know I have a DAS and therefor need to wait? 
3- How does any CM determine that my DW, DD, SIL and my cousin skipped a wait on the first ride and have to wait before going on anything else?
And those don't even consider the fact that we all could spend our line time eating counter service or shopping. 

I just don't see Disney going for this process.


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## cmwade77

CPT Tripss said:


> I'm a little late to the discussion and the thread is a bit confusing. I read the first and last pages.  As I understand the OP's proposal.  I:
> 1- Go to a ride, show my DAS and then get admitted immediately.
> 2- Then at the exit, they note on my DAS the next time I am allowed to ride anything in order to make up for the wait I skipped.
> 3- At that time I go to my next ride and the process repeats.
> 
> If that is correct, I have some concerns/problems.
> 1- How does the CM at the exit know I have a DAS?
> 2- How does the CM at the next ride, which may have a short wait, know I have a DAS and therefor need to wait?
> 3- How does any CM determine that my DW, DD, SIL and my cousin skipped a wait on the first ride and have to wait before going on anything else?
> And those don't even consider the fact that we all could spend our line time eating counter service or shopping.
> 
> I just don't see Disney going for this process.


This has been explained throughout the thread, but it is probably good to reiterate the system.

You go to on a ride
You show your DAS
The CM writes the Time you arrived, the standby wait time and the time your pass will next be valid at (based on adding the length of the ride and the length of the standby line together and add it to your arrival time) and admits you to the queue
You ride the attraction
You wait until the next valid time before going on the next ride. The next valid time would be exactly the length of the standby line.

You would not show the pass to anyone after exiting the ride, as the wait time was already written when getting in line. This means that the time you already waited, plus the time you are waiting after getting off the ride would be exactly equal to the standby line, assuming the posted standby line time is correct.

The current system would allow you do other things while waiting, you are simply waiting before the ride right now, which poses all sorts of logistical problems that we are seeing happen right now. My system shifts that wait to after the ride.

Yes, the first ride has little to no wait; however, you generally have somewhat of a wait to get the DAS and don't forget to factor in that those who need the assistance move slower, etc.

I have had the occasion to speak with those in charge at the other parks that use the system that I have suggested feel that these factors accounts for the lack of wait on the first attraction. Two U.S. parks that I know of that use the system I suggest are Universal Studios Hollywood and Sea World San Diego.

I do not know how other parks in Florida outside Disney handles things, but I do know these two parks very well.


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## curemyreed

To the OP: I have been mulling over your suggested DAS system and I really like how it eliminates the back-tracking required with the current DAS system.

To those using wheelchairs: Thank you for going into detailed explanations as to how the current DAS system is causing you to wait longer than stand-by line riders. I was not aware of this potential situation and having descriptions allowed me to absolutely understand. I find this really troubling and I am sorry it is happening. I hope Disney becomes of aware of it soon and fixes the problem.


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## SueM in MN

cmwade77 said:


> This has been explained throughout the thread, but it is probably good to reiterate the system.
> 
> You go to on a ride
> You show your DAS
> The CM writes the Time you arrived, the standby wait time and the time your pass will next be valid at (based on adding the length of the ride and the length of the standby line together and add it to your arrival time) and admits you to the queue
> You ride the attraction
> You wait until the next valid time before going on the next ride. The next valid time would be exactly the length of the standby line.
> 
> You would not show the pass to anyone after exiting the ride, as the wait time was already written when getting in line. This means that the time you already waited, plus the time you are waiting after getting off the ride would be exactly equal to the standby line, assuming the posted standby line time is correct.
> 
> The current system would allow you do other things while waiting, you are simply waiting before the ride right now, which poses all sorts of logistical problems that we are seeing happen right now. My system shifts that wait to after the ride.
> 
> Yes, the first ride has little to no wait; however, you generally have somewhat of a wait to get the DAS and don't forget to factor in that those who need the assistance move slower, etc.
> 
> I have had the occasion to speak with those in charge at the other parks that use the system that I have suggested feel that these factors accounts for the lack of wait on the first attraction. Two U.S. parks that I know of that use the system I suggest are Universal Studios Hollywood and Sea World San Diego.
> 
> *I do not know how other parks in Florida outside Disney handles things, but I do know these two parks very well.*



Universal and Islands of Adventure in Orlando use essentially the same system as the DAS that Disney just began using.
They do allow the guest to enter the attraction immediately if the wait is20 minutes or less from what I have heard.
Sea World in Orlando just started issuing return times similar to Disney's DAS system?


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## Bean786

SueM in MN said:


> Universal and Islands of Adventure in Orlando use essentially the same system as the DAS that Disney just began using. They do allow the guest to enter the attraction immediately if the wait is20 minutes or less from what I have heard. Sea World in Orlando just started issuing return times similar to Disney's DAS system?



Seaworld is 20 or less.. Quick queue. Also you can stack your return times. But you have to back within an hour of your return time.


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## CPT Tripss

OK, I was piggy backing on the exit suggestion.  So how about concerns 2 & 3?  What stops me or my traveling companions from just hopping on another ride?

ETA: I guess my question is, if I don't offer my DAS, how does anyone know I have one?  In the existing system, it really doesn't matter.  In the proposed system, it does matter as I can game the system by only selectively using my DAS.


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## cmwade77

CPT Tripss said:


> OK, I was piggy backing on the exit suggestion.  So how about concerns 2 & 3?  What stops me or my traveling companions from just hopping on another ride?
> 
> ETA: I guess my question is, if I don't offer my DAS, how does anyone know I have one?  In the existing system, it really doesn't matter.  In the proposed system, it does matter as I can game the system by only selectively using my DAS.



Actually, the current system already allows you to do this already. For example, with the current system, if you have a return time of 2:00 for Indiana Jones and Jungle Cruise only has a 5 minute wait at 1:40, there is nothing stopping you from going on Jungle Cruise while waiting for the 2:00 return time of Indiana Jones. Under the system I propose, nothing would change as far as this goes, except that you would go on Indiana Jones first, then ride Jungle Cruise while waiting for the 2:00 time that you could next use your pass. What would change is that you would not need to go to a kiosk to get a return time and instead of waiting the standby line + 15 to 30 minute (depending on if you can do stairs or not), you will have waited exactly the length of the standby line. Again, assuming the posted wait time is correct.

That being said, I don't think it is gaming the system, if Disney intentionally designed it to work this way, so that you can go on other rides while waiting your turn. Based on the phone calls I have had, it was indeed intentionally designed this way and they have encouraged me to go on other attractions or to shows while waiting for my return time and have told others that I know the same thing. As a result, I wouldn't mind if the wait is even slightly longer (up to about 10 minutes) than other guests, but I do mind if it is 15+ minutes more than other guests. And in some cases, it is double to triple the length of the standby line. So, that is why I suggest what I have to equalize the wait times, not to mention the other factors, such as distance walked (by any member of the party), return times close to park closing, etc.


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## KPeveler

CPT Tripss said:


> OK, I was piggy backing on the exit suggestion.  So how about concerns 2 & 3?  What stops me or my traveling companions from just hopping on another ride?
> 
> ETA: I guess my question is, if I don't offer my DAS, how does anyone know I have one?  In the existing system, it really doesn't matter.  In the proposed system, it does matter as I can game the system by only selectively using my DAS.




I still do not know how people at the exit would be able to write anything on the GAC, and in most locations in Disneyland, that is where a guest would be entering.  The guest at the exit of any Fantasyland attraction dark ride, and indeed most CMs at the exits are not allowed to take their hand off the Emergency Stop (e-stop) button.  They certainly would not be allowed to stop and write times down.  

I understand CMWade when you said that the person at the line entrance would write down the wait time, but again, there is no one at the line entrance on most Fantasyland rides, and I cannot access the entrance anyway.  Only if they were in a place all wheelchairs could access would it work, and there would need to be someone at end of line at all times.  

There is no one at end of line for many attractions once there is overflow, or I cannot find the end of line, or it involves stairs.  

So it would not save on labor costs - it would require more Cast Members.  I also checked, and my wife confirmed when she was working any part of Splash Mountain except maybe FP return, she had no idea what the current wait time was.

Also, here is my way to beat the system, under your switched around system.  I am using an average Saturday in the off season as a guide (the times I have seen posted for the last two weekends or so):

Let's say I want to ride Space Mountain - I ride Snow White, which has a wait time of 15 minutes.  It is noon.  There is no line of people waiting when I get there (pretty much ever).  I am allowed to enter the next ride at 12:15.  I ride Space Mountain, which has a stand-by time of 75 minutes.  I am given a time for the next ride at 1:30.  I then go eat lunch and rest.  

I decide next I want to ride Star Tours, so I go on Pinocchio's Daring Adventures at 1:30, which has a wait time of 10 minutes.  I am given a time of 1:40 to ride.  I then to go to Star Tours, which has a wait time of 60 minutes.  I can enter the next ride at 2:40

I ride that, then I go wait in the standby line for Buzz Lightyear, which has a wait time of 20 minutes.  This queue is accessible, so I do not show my DAS.  To the CMs, I am just like any other wheelchair user.  They do not know I am supposed to be "in line" for something else.  By the time Buzz Lightyear is done, my next ride time has arrived.  

I go ride Jungle Cruise at 2:40, with a wait time of 30 minutes.  I can enter the next ride at 3:10.  I need the wheelchair boat, so by the time the boat gets there, loads me, cycles, and unloads me, 20 minutes have gone by.  It is now 3:00.  I now have 10 minutes to go to the bathroom, then present myself to Indiana Jones at 3:10, with a wait time of 70 minutes.  This means my next entrance time is 4:20.  I go right in, knowing this is a slow loader.  It is usually about 20 minutes before I reach the ride, 30 by the time I exit.  It is now nearly 5 o'clock.

In what I just described, I went on Snow White, Space Mountain, Pinocchio, Star Tours, Buzz Lightyear, Jungle Cruise, and Indiana Jones between the hours of 12 noon and 5 o'clock.  I have also had time to eat and go to the bathroom.  Technically if you add up the wait times for all the attractions for the stand-by queue that able bodied people use, the total wait time would be 280 minutes (I am including the waiting for Buzz Lightyear).  This is 4.667 hours, or 4 hours and 40 minutes.  

That means I have ridden 7 attractions between the hours of 12 and 5, which should have made me wait for all but 20 minutes of that time.  And we all know that the combined ride times of the above rides is more than 20 minutes.

I will spend the rest of my day "leap-frogging" around the park, using my DAS for something with a very short wait in order to gain immediate or nearly immediate access to a ride with a longer wait.  

This is my concern for what happens if they switched the system around.  I already have to wheel in circles with the new system, so I would just keep doing it.  

The DAS system as it is does not currently work right - yet.  But it took me about 5 minutes of thinking to come up with a system on how to beat the "wait after" system.  I know it should sound the same as the "wait before" but it does not work the same way.  Right now the attraction I choose has no bearing on what comes next.  If the system flip-flopped, all I have to do is put a short wait before a long one, and plan the "everything else" (shows where the DAS does not apply, food, resting in First Aid, parades, Fantasmic, etc) for the remainder of the "long wait" rides.  

The current system needs to be tweaked, and there really really needs to be a system in place for people who have concerns beyond waiting in line - like those with vision impairments.  Right now I am suggesting to people who need to be in a certain place due to a disability (front row, on an end, reflective captioning, etc) that they check in with a show while the *previous *show is going on.  Some theatres open very early (Magical Map in DLR up to 30 minutes before the show even starts) and there is no hope of getting seats near the front unless the guest is either literally first in line (families run to get up front) or they check in the show before, and ask that the front row be saved for them.

I am not certain how to fix the system - I do know that in DLR they need to make major changes to the system for wheelchairs at the top 9 rides.  

I also know that I am not specialer than anyone else, and I should wait my turn, but I will not wait longer every single time - and it really is because of the wheelchair.

Perhaps they should have put off changing the wheelchair return system until the DAS was well tested.


----------



## KPeveler

richflour said:


> Tha ada does not require disney or any other company to provide quicker line service .
> I am in know way judging someones disabilities or to saying one is greater than the other .but to keep harping on how some cant enjoy themself if they have to wait is absurd.
> Disney made this change because of massive abuse of the gac.
> It is impossible for disney to accommodate every disability.
> Should I complain because disney has not made a ride like space mountain acessable to my child, no I will simply enjoy the ones that they have made acessable to him.
> Disney still goes over and beyond what the ada requires.  For that we will contiune to vacation at disney.
> I posted the previous post without thinking I know that you can have disability and still ride space mountain.
> It is the sense of entitlement that some of the posters have that makes me upset



I never did say that the ADA required Disney to allow quicker ride times.  What the ADA does require is that I am allowed equal access, which means safe access.  Yes, DCA has ramps, but it also has more queues in the sun.  And my body, among many other issues, cannot handle heat/sun.  So I do not mind waiting my turn, but if I tried to do it in most of the standard queues, I would spike a fever and pass out (again, one example).  Being told a time to come back, and then waiting somewhere safe for me - that is equal.

What we are saying is NOT equal is going to Racers, seeing a 120 minute standby time, then being sent into a 30 minute FP/wheelchair queue, meaning I wait 150 minutes.

Most attractions have waits in and after the FP queue, and apparently those are not being taken into account under the new system - we are being given times equal to the entire line, not the entire line minus what we are going to have to wait in upon return.

I know there would not be an exact science, but subtracting more than 10 minutes, which is at least how long it takes me to push myself from place to place, would seem appropriate.


----------



## barrysprot36

SueM in MN said:


> Universal and Islands of Adventure in Orlando use essentially the same system as the DAS that Disney just began using. They do allow the guest to enter the attraction immediately if the wait is20 minutes or less from what I have heard. Sea World in Orlando just started issuing return times similar to Disney's DAS system?



Universal allow the guest immediate entrance to the attraction if the wait is 30 minutes or less. Otherwise the return time given is the regular line less 30 minutes. Our experience with this a few years ago was that the CMs needed more mathematical training as some had difficulty subtracting 30 minutes to give the return time.


----------



## SueM in MN

barrysprot36 said:


> Universal allow the guest immediate entrance to the attraction if the wait is 30 minutes or less. Otherwise the return time given is the regular line less 30 minutes. Our experience with this a few years ago was that the CMs needed more mathematical training as some had difficulty subtracting 30 minutes to give the return time.


Different people (including people who work at Universal recently) have given times of everything from 15-30 minutes. I averaged it to 20.


----------



## babydoll65

KPeveler said:


> I still do not know how people at the exit would be able to write anything on the GAC, and in most locations in Disneyland, that is where a guest would be entering.  The guest at the exit of any Fantasyland attraction dark ride, and indeed most CMs at the exits are not allowed to take their hand off the Emergency Stop (e-stop) button.  They certainly would not be allowed to stop and write times down.
> 
> I understand CMWade when you said that the person at the line entrance would write down the wait time, but again, there is no one at the line entrance on most Fantasyland rides, and I cannot access the entrance anyway.  Only if they were in a place all wheelchairs could access would it work, and there would need to be someone at end of line at all times.
> 
> There is no one at end of line for many attractions once there is overflow, or I cannot find the end of line, or it involves stairs.
> 
> So it would not save on labor costs - it would require more Cast Members.  I also checked, and my wife confirmed when she was working any part of Splash Mountain except maybe FP return, she had no idea what the current wait time was.
> 
> Also, here is my way to beat the system, under your switched around system.  I am using an average Saturday in the off season as a guide (the times I have seen posted for the last two weekends or so):
> 
> Let's say I want to ride Space Mountain - I ride Snow White, which has a wait time of 15 minutes.  It is noon.  There is no line of people waiting when I get there (pretty much ever).  I am allowed to enter the next ride at 12:15.  I ride Space Mountain, which has a stand-by time of 75 minutes.  I am given a time for the next ride at 1:30.  I then go eat lunch and rest.
> 
> I decide next I want to ride Star Tours, so I go on Pinocchio's Daring Adventures at 1:30, which has a wait time of 10 minutes.  I am given a time of 1:40 to ride.  I then to go to Star Tours, which has a wait time of 60 minutes.  I can enter the next ride at 2:40
> 
> I ride that, then I go wait in the standby line for Buzz Lightyear, which has a wait time of 20 minutes.  This queue is accessible, so I do not show my DAS.  To the CMs, I am just like any other wheelchair user.  They do not know I am supposed to be "in line" for something else.  By the time Buzz Lightyear is done, my next ride time has arrived.
> 
> I go ride Jungle Cruise at 2:40, with a wait time of 30 minutes.  I can enter the next ride at 3:10.  I need the wheelchair boat, so by the time the boat gets there, loads me, cycles, and unloads me, 20 minutes have gone by.  It is now 3:00.  I now have 10 minutes to go to the bathroom, then present myself to Indiana Jones at 3:10, with a wait time of 70 minutes.  This means my next entrance time is 4:20.  I go right in, knowing this is a slow loader.  It is usually about 20 minutes before I reach the ride, 30 by the time I exit.  It is now nearly 5 o'clock.
> 
> In what I just described, I went on Snow White, Space Mountain, Pinocchio, Star Tours, Buzz Lightyear, Jungle Cruise, and Indiana Jones between the hours of 12 noon and 5 o'clock.  I have also had time to eat and go to the bathroom.  Technically if you add up the wait times for all the attractions for the stand-by queue that able bodied people use, the total wait time would be 280 minutes (I am including the waiting for Buzz Lightyear).  This is 4.667 hours, or 4 hours and 40 minutes.
> 
> That means I have ridden 7 attractions between the hours of 12 and 5, which should have made me wait for all but 20 minutes of that time.  And we all know that the combined ride times of the above rides is more than 20 minutes.
> 
> I will spend the rest of my day "leap-frogging" around the park, using my DAS for something with a very short wait in order to gain immediate or nearly immediate access to a ride with a longer wait.
> 
> This is my concern for what happens if they switched the system around.  I already have to wheel in circles with the new system, so I would just keep doing it.
> 
> The DAS system as it is does not currently work right - yet.  But it took me about 5 minutes of thinking to come up with a system on how to beat the "wait after" system.  I know it should sound the same as the "wait before" but it does not work the same way.  Right now the attraction I choose has no bearing on what comes next.  If the system flip-flopped, all I have to do is put a short wait before a long one, and plan the "everything else" (shows where the DAS does not apply, food, resting in First Aid, parades, Fantasmic, etc) for the remainder of the "long wait" rides.
> 
> The current system needs to be tweaked, and there really really needs to be a system in place for people who have concerns beyond waiting in line - like those with vision impairments.  Right now I am suggesting to people who need to be in a certain place due to a disability (front row, on an end, reflective captioning, etc) that they check in with a show while the *previous *show is going on.  Some theatres open very early (Magical Map in DLR up to 30 minutes before the show even starts) and there is no hope of getting seats near the front unless the guest is either literally first in line (families run to get up front) or they check in the show before, and ask that the front row be saved for them.
> 
> I am not certain how to fix the system - I do know that in DLR they need to make major changes to the system for wheelchairs at the top 9 rides.
> 
> I also know that I am not specialer than anyone else, and I should wait my turn, but I will not wait longer every single time - and it really is because of the wheelchair.
> 
> Perhaps they should have put off changing the wheelchair return system until the DAS was well tested.



I was saying this same scenario on pg 6. With the ability to still have fast passes it seems you could just use rides with smaller wait times to gain entrance to ride with much larger wait times. I believe disney will adjust issues with the DAS as more and more complaints come in but right now with the magic bands and fp+ problems they have been having I guess one issue at a time. Maybe the DAS card should look similar to a kttw card, then take the fp machines there about to remove and turn them into DAS return time machines. You could put your card in and the mach would take the standby wait time,minus 15 minutes and print out a ticket to be used for that ride then just get into the fp line. Would eliminate cms holding up lines trying to write times on cards.


----------



## SueM in MN

KPeveler said:


> I still do not know how people at the exit would be able to write anything on the GAC, and in most locations in Disneyland, that is where a guest would be entering.  The guest at the exit of any Fantasyland attraction dark ride, and indeed most CMs at the exits are not allowed to take their hand off the Emergency Stop (e-stop) button.  They certainly would not be allowed to stop and write times down.
> 
> I understand CMWade when you said that the person at the line entrance would write down the wait time, but again, there is no one at the line entrance on most Fantasyland rides, and I cannot access the entrance anyway.  Only if they were in a place all wheelchairs could access would it work, and there would need to be someone at end of line at all times.
> 
> There is no one at end of line for many attractions once there is overflow, or I cannot find the end of line, or it involves stairs.
> 
> So it would not save on labor costs - it would require more Cast Members.  I also checked, and my wife confirmed when she was working any part of Splash Mountain except maybe FP return, she had no idea what the current wait time was.
> 
> Also, here is my way to beat the system, under your switched around system.  I am using an average Saturday in the off season as a guide (the times I have seen posted for the last two weekends or so):
> 
> Let's say I want to ride Space Mountain - I ride Snow White, which has a wait time of 15 minutes.  It is noon.  There is no line of people waiting when I get there (pretty much ever).  I am allowed to enter the next ride at 12:15.  I ride Space Mountain, which has a stand-by time of 75 minutes.  I am given a time for the next ride at 1:30.  I then go eat lunch and rest.
> 
> I decide next I want to ride Star Tours, so I go on Pinocchio's Daring Adventures at 1:30, which has a wait time of 10 minutes.  I am given a time of 1:40 to ride.  I then to go to Star Tours, which has a wait time of 60 minutes.  I can enter the next ride at 2:40
> 
> I ride that, then I go wait in the standby line for Buzz Lightyear, which has a wait time of 20 minutes.  This queue is accessible, so I do not show my DAS.  To the CMs, I am just like any other wheelchair user.  They do not know I am supposed to be "in line" for something else.  By the time Buzz Lightyear is done, my next ride time has arrived.
> 
> I go ride Jungle Cruise at 2:40, with a wait time of 30 minutes.  I can enter the next ride at 3:10.  I need the wheelchair boat, so by the time the boat gets there, loads me, cycles, and unloads me, 20 minutes have gone by.  It is now 3:00.  I now have 10 minutes to go to the bathroom, then present myself to Indiana Jones at 3:10, with a wait time of 70 minutes.  This means my next entrance time is 4:20.  I go right in, knowing this is a slow loader.  It is usually about 20 minutes before I reach the ride, 30 by the time I exit.  It is now nearly 5 o'clock.
> 
> In what I just described, I went on Snow White, Space Mountain, Pinocchio, Star Tours, Buzz Lightyear, Jungle Cruise, and Indiana Jones between the hours of 12 noon and 5 o'clock.  I have also had time to eat and go to the bathroom.  Technically if you add up the wait times for all the attractions for the stand-by queue that able bodied people use, the total wait time would be 280 minutes (I am including the waiting for Buzz Lightyear).  This is 4.667 hours, or 4 hours and 40 minutes.
> 
> *That means I have ridden 7 attractions between the hours of 12 and 5, which should have made me wait for all but 20 minutes of that time.  And we all know that the combined ride times of the above rides is more than 20 minutes.
> 
> I will spend the rest of my day "leap-frogging" around the park, using my DAS for something with a very short wait in order to gain immediate or nearly immediate access to a ride with a longer wait.
> 
> This is my concern for what happens if they switched the system around.  I already have to wheel in circles with the new system, so I would just keep doing it.
> 
> The DAS system as it is does not currently work right - yet.  But it took me about 5 minutes of thinking to come up with a system on how to beat the "wait after" system.  I know it should sound the same as the "wait before" but it does not work the same way.  Right now the attraction I choose has no bearing on what comes next.  If the system flip-flopped, all I have to do is put a short wait before a long one, and plan the "everything else" (shows where the DAS does not apply, food, resting in First Aid, parades, Fantasmic, etc) for the remainder of the "long wait" rides.  *
> 
> The current system needs to be tweaked, and there really really needs to be a system in place for people who have concerns beyond waiting in line - like those with vision impairments.  Right now I am suggesting to people who need to be in a certain place due to a disability (front row, on an end, reflective captioning, etc) that they check in with a show while the *previous *show is going on.  Some theatres open very early (Magical Map in DLR up to 30 minutes before the show even starts) and there is no hope of getting seats near the front unless the guest is either literally first in line (families run to get up front) or they check in the show before, and ask that the front row be saved for them.
> 
> I am not certain how to fix the system - I do know that in DLR they need to make major changes to the system for wheelchairs at the top 9 rides.
> 
> I also know that I am not specialer than anyone else, and I should wait my turn, but I will not wait longer every single time - and it really is because of the wheelchair.
> 
> Perhaps they should have put off changing the wheelchair return system until the DAS was well tested.


The bolded was what I also thought of and wrote about when this idea was first proposed on the other thread. 
With the way the DAS is currently set up, the order of attractions doesn't matter, with 'wait after' it does.
Disney is encouraging people to do other things, including attractions with short waits, while waiting for the next DAS Return Time to arrive. So, that part is expected,but the order of attraction doesn't matter with the current DAS and would with this.

Also, one of the issues DLR had was with people with GACs at headliner attractions. I don't think the 'wait after' would solve their issues at those attractions.  And may make it worse - people showing up at Radiator Springs Racers  at DLR expecting immediate access because with a 'wait after' system, they will not be waiting before.
I know Disney was aware of different systems in use for guests with disabilities, so I'm sure they considered the 'wait after' option. It may work well in places that are less busy or have less headline attractions.

WDW and DLR are very different, especially in terms of Mainstream Lines and number of attractions with Fastpass. So things may work a little differently, even with the same system. Disney also has a lot more data available than is just in the wait times in the apps (especially at WDW).

I think with some tweaks, the current DAS system will work. 
After a process change is made, there is going to be a time period where it is getting stabilized. After that period, the data is analyzed again and changes made based on the data. DAS hasn't even been in effect yet for a month, so I would not expect any changes yet unless something is so obviously not working.

The stamps for GACs had issues before - one was that there were competing stamps on some people's GAC. Another was that the stamps were very general. 
I'm sure the idea to get rid of those stamps and handle those needs at the attraction works in theory, but one of the issues in practice is how is a guest to know what is available? 
There is also a lot of room for issues - do CMs all know what is available and what fits different needs? Do people feel comfortable asking for the assistance they need and are CMs making them feel welcome with asking?
Is the CM being told about the needs the appropriate person who can make sure those needs are met? (From issues people have mentioned, there are too many CMs needing to be involved in being told the needs).

I think (just my thought) that once WDW completely rolls out RFID and My Disney Magic, they will probably handle those invisible needs that had specific stamps by adding the information to the file that Magicbands and RFID cards access at attractions. That way, information about what the guest said they needed at Guest Relations could be matched at the attraction with what is available there.


----------



## mistysue

I definitely agree that the proposed system opens the door to "gaming" the system by alternating short and long waits to essentially never wait- creating the same issue that the GAC did.

I also completely agree that disabilities that create a physical barrier and necessitate alternate loading (and increased wait) issues do need to be treated differently from disabilities that do not effect boarding. If you got a written wait time, immediately ride and you are already past that wait time it is very different from those who are given a wait time, enter through the FP line and then have an hour to spare. That is horribly unfair to have to wait you turn, then get into a huge additional wait.  I wonder if Disney were to just allow immediate access to a separate boarding line, if it would give them a more accurate ability to judge how long the alternate line was. This may result in more accessible vehicles in the long run.


----------



## cmwade77

That's why I had suggested that Disney may need to add in the length of the ride when calculating the next time an attraction is available. 

If there is a 10 minute or shorter wait (some CMs allow this for up to a 20 minute wait) for an attraction, they don't look too see if you have an active return time on your DAS. So you are currently able to do what KPEVELER suggests, just by changing the order. It does add a ton of extra traveling though and we all know how much longer it can take those of us who need assistance to get through the parks, so that may limit the practicality of doing this under either scenario. 

As a result, I really don't see how it's opening the door to more abuse or making the system any more like the old GAC. It is just solving the issues that exist with this system. 

Also, as I stated under my system, everyone, including those with only mobility issues would need a card. They could have two versions, one for mobility entrances only and one for akternate entrances, but that opens the door to abuse. The card would need to be scanned at all attractions that don't have a mainstreamed queue. 

As for how they would know how long the line is, they would simply look up at the posted standby time. You would basically always speak to a CM near the entrance of the attraction first and they would be the one to write the time down, yes they would write the attraction name down to and you would be given a reasonable amount of time to get to the accessible entrance after that.

Yes, something would need to be done for Fantasyland. Perhaps there they would need a kiosk that writes the times down and they give you a certain amount of time to get to the attraction, but this would really only affect Peter Pan, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, Alice in Wonderland and Pinocchio. The other attractions would not have this operational concern. 

But perhaps there are other ways to solve the issues as well.

Here are the main issues with the current system, as I see it:
Traveling further than guests that don't need assistance to get the assistance needed.

CMs not wanting to give return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open. 

Guests who need assistance are constantly waiting longer than guests that don't need assistance and by a substantial amount in many cases.

There are guests with certain disabilities that don't understand why they can't just go on an attraction when they see it.


----------



## disney david

This is for wdw only for now until Disney land get RFID if they ever do



Hey just came out with a pamphlet/guide for fast pass plus kiosk locations where you can go and see your reservations and make same day ones. I saw a pic of mk and their was a good amount now if they made das RFID and be able to make return times via computer screen I think bag would help. I stead of having to go to the ride you go to one of those locations it know by the scan wheatear it a fast pass plus or das and give you the screen to need. And let's say each land had I e the. You could make let say three for that land then once you use the three you could go to the next kiosk or be able to make one in each land. So now you still will have to wait like das is meant to be used but you could plan your day he fast pass plus or change them to fit around the das. Do other stuff and not have to go to the ride and deal with why can't we ride now problems people complaining about.


----------



## CPT Tripss

cmwade77 said:


> Here are the main issues with the current system, as I see it:
> Traveling further than guests that don't need assistance to get the assistance needed.
> 
> CMs not wanting to give return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open.
> 
> Guests who need assistance are constantly waiting longer than guests that don't need assistance and by a substantial amount in many cases.
> 
> There are guests with certain disabilities that don't understand why they can't just go on an attraction when they see it.



With the exception of CMs not wanting to give return times, the suggested change won't fix any of the other problems listed.  Two are physical design issues and the last one doesn't seem solvable short of a front of line pass for every attraction.


----------



## BroganMc

CPT Tripss said:


> With the exception of CMs not wanting to give return times, the suggested change won't fix any of the other problems listed.  Two are physical design issues and the last one doesn't seem solvable short of a front of line pass for every attraction.



I disagree. Let me illustrate:



> Traveling further than guests that don't need assistance to get the assistance needed.



cmwade77 refers to under DAS you will go to an attraction twice to ride it. Once to get a Return Time and again to redeem that Return Time. For people with mobility issues this can become a significant hardship because they're traveling twice for something a non-disabled guest travels once to achieve. For cognitive-impaired guests, this forces families to split up to get Return Times and have to find each other to resume touring.

The proposed system allows the disabled person to only visit an attraction once to experience it, then tacks on the necessary wait time after so they won't go to another attraction until their blackout period is over.



> CMs not wanting to give return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open.



You agreed cmwade's system addresses this.



> Guests who need assistance are constantly waiting longer than guests that don't need assistance and by a substantial amount in many cases.



Let's take a guest who needs the wheelchair car. They go to TSM and get a Return Time of 90 minutes. They return 90 minutes later, then encounter a wheelchair line of 30 minutes. They have now spent 2 hrs to experience TSM whereas guests without the need of the wheelchair car can do it in 1.5 hrs.

This system builds that wheelchair line wait into the Blackout Ride time. So now the wheelchair guest is admitted to TSM, waits 30 minutes to experience the attraction, and has an additional hour to wait before they can use a DAS to go on another attraction. Time spend doing TSM for wheelchair guest now equals the time for all other non-wheelchair guests: 90 minutes.



> There are guests with certain disabilities that don't understand why they can't just go on an attraction when they see it.



Agreed, this proposed system only assists that guest on the first attraction UNLESS you consider the guest is unaware why they are waiting to go on something else. All that autistic child will see is that they go on Ride A, then parents lead them somewhere else for an hour or so, then go on Ride B. It's a perceptual change that better manages the conditions of that disability.


----------



## lovethattink

BroganMc said:


> I disagree. Let me illustrate:
> 
> 
> 
> cmwade77 refers to under DAS you will go to an attraction twice to ride it. Once to get a Return Time and again to redeem that Return Time. For people with mobility issues this can become a significant hardship because they're traveling twice for something a non-disabled guest travels once to achieve. For cognitive-impaired guests, this forces families to split up to get Return Times and have to find each other to resume touring.
> 
> The proposed system allows the disabled person to only visit an attraction once to experience it, then tacks on the necessary wait time after so they won't go to another attraction until their blackout period is over.
> 
> 
> 
> You agreed cmwade's system addresses this.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's take a guest who needs the wheelchair car. They go to TSM and get a Return Time of 90 minutes. They return 90 minutes later, then encounter a wheelchair line of 30 minutes. They have now spent 2 hrs to experience TSM whereas guests without the need of the wheelchair car can do it in 1.5 hrs.
> 
> This system builds that wheelchair line wait into the Blackout Ride time. So now the wheelchair guest is admitted to TSM, waits 30 minutes to experience the attraction, and has an additional hour to wait before they can use a DAS to go on another attraction. Time spend doing TSM for wheelchair guest now equals the time for all other non-wheelchair guests: 90 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, this proposed system only assists that guest on the first attraction UNLESS you consider the guest is unaware why they are waiting to go on something else. All that autistic child will see is that they go on Ride A, then parents lead them somewhere else for an hour or so, then go on Ride B. It's a perceptual change that better manages the conditions of that disability.



After all the explanations, I FINALLY understand the proposed changes.


While it's extremely rare for me to take my son to a park alone, this would work when it's just the 2 of us and no runner to get the return time. Plus only going to an attraction once instead of twice makes a lot more sense.


----------



## cmwade77

disney david said:


> This is for wdw only for now until Disney land get RFID if they ever do
> 
> 
> 
> Hey just came out with a pamphlet/guide for fast pass plus kiosk locations where you can go and see your reservations and make same day ones. I saw a pic of mk and their was a good amount now if they made das RFID and be able to make return times via computer screen I think bag would help. I stead of having to go to the ride you go to one of those locations it know by the scan wheatear it a fast pass plus or das and give you the screen to need. And let's say each land had I e the. You could make let say three for that land then once you use the three you could go to the next kiosk or be able to make one in each land. So now you still will have to wait like das is meant to be used but you could plan your day he fast pass plus or change them to fit around the das. Do other stuff and not have to go to the ride and deal with why can't we ride now problems people complaining about.



If they did this, I would also expect to be able to link the DAS to My Disney Experience and be able to reserve a time right from my phone.

This may also help to solve a lot of the issues. But if they did this, they would still need to allow for people to use any of  the methods, kiosk, phone or go to the attraction, whichever is more convenient for the guest at the time.


----------



## mistysue

BroganMc said:


> I disagree. Let me illustrate:
> 
> The proposed system allows the disabled person to only visit an attraction once to experience it, then tacks on the necessary wait time after so they won't go to another attraction until their blackout period is over.
> 
> Agreed, this proposed system only assists that guest on the first attraction UNLESS you consider the guest is unaware why they are waiting to go on something else. All that autistic child will see is that they go on Ride A, then parents lead them somewhere else for an hour or so, then go on Ride B. It's a perceptual change that better manages the conditions of that disability.



The issue is that there is no actual blackout time.  You are not banned from riding rides until your return time.  (unlike the individual without the DAS)  You just can't go on something with a long wait. For a majority of the year, this just means you can't ride headliners back to back,  but has very little effect on the park touring most people do. With very very little effort it becomes the same advantage the GAC gave for entering in the FP line. The only way this would be anything like equal would be if you could literally be stopped from entering all rides until your wait time was up, but that is not realistic.

The proposed plan solves some huge problems for those with alternate boarding needs, and I would suggest that people suggest it to Disney for that purpose, but gives out a huge advantage for an individual who boards regularly. If this were applied across the board I would expect it to last at the most a season before they revamped it due to overuse. I have three kids with different disabilities, we have never used any assistance for them but I can only imagine how much more enjoyable our trips would be if we had an on-demand fastpass for every other ride. I have good reason for getting one, it's tempting and the system is already overloaded, the last thing needed is a system with such clear benefits that even more people (both needing and abusing) get a card.


----------



## Southerndisney

I think Disney wants to get ready for fast pass + and needed to get the GAC usage under control to decrease waits on fast pass rides. Their apparent goal is to see that a DAS user cannot ride more fast pass rides, using a DAS during the day, than a standby rider with both going on the same fast pass rides. The current DAS and the OP's suggestion both do this. However both DAS systems allow a person to ride rides during their wait outside of the line. Which means a DAS rider can in theory ride more rides during the  day than a person without a DAS. I think that Disney allows this because they realize that many people using DAS move slower between lines, take more breaks, and spend less time in the park than the average park attendee.


----------



## Schmeck

lovethattink said:


> After all the explanations, I FINALLY understand the proposed changes.
> 
> 
> While it's extremely rare for me to take my son to a park alone, this would work when it's just the 2 of us and no runner to get the return time. Plus only going to an attraction once instead of twice makes a lot more sense.



But regular guests have to go to the attraction to get a FP, then go back to use it, don't they? So why would someone with a DAS be given the advantage/privilege of not having to do the go/return trip as well? Disney is basically giving guests with a DAS a FP privilege, even when FPs run out for the day.


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:


> The issue is that there is no actual blackout time.  You are not banned from riding rides until your return time.  (unlike the individual without the DAS)  You just can't go on something with a long wait. For a majority of the year, this just means you can't ride headliners back to back,  but has very little effect on the park touring most people do. With very very little effort it becomes the same advantage the GAC gave for entering in the FP line. The only way this would be anything like equal would be if you could literally be stopped from entering all rides until your wait time was up, but that is not realistic.


Can you explain how the existing system doesn't do the same thing?

Currently, there is nothing stopping me from getting a return time on Indiana Jones, then riding Pirates when it has only a 5 minute wait and then going on Indiana Jones.

Under the proposed system, you would go on Indiana Jones first, then on Pirates.

The only difference in the existing system is you can go on the shorter wait attractions before going on the ride and in my suggested system, you would go on them after going on the ride.

So, in I don't really see the difference, other than the timing of the attractions.


----------



## cmwade77

Schmeck said:


> But regular guests have to go to the attraction to get a FP, then go back to use it, don't they? So why would someone with a DAS be given the advantage/privilege of not having to do the go/return trip as well? Disney is basically giving guests with a DAS a FP privilege, even when FPs run out for the day.


For FP, yes, but a guest who doesn't need assistance has the ability to choose to stand in a 45 minute Standby Line, which means they would only have to travel to an attraction once.

Those that have DAS cards do not have that ability, so they must always travel to an attraction at WDW twice. At DL, they have to travel to a kiosk, then back to the attraction, so this could actually result in substantially more walking, depending on the attractions chosen.

For example, I want to do Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin, Gadget's Go Coaster and it's a small world and all three have a 45 minute wait. I get a FP for Roger Rabbit's cartoon spin, so no problem there. I get a return time for Gadget's Go Coaster. Now I have to go all the way back to Mad Hatter to get a return time for it's a small world, then go back to small world. Since small world has stairs at the exit and I must use the DAS to avoid them, I have no choice but to get a return time anyway and Gadget's Go Coaster has a physical turnstile that is an obstacle for me, which means I must have a return time there as well, no matter how short the line is. As you can see this would result in a lot of backtracking that any other guest would not need to do.


----------



## kritter47

cmwade77 said:


> Can you explain how the existing system doesn't do the same thing?
> 
> Currently, there is nothing stopping me from getting a return time on Indiana Jones, then riding Pirates when it has only a 5 minute wait and then going on Indiana Jones.
> 
> Under the proposed system, you would go on Indiana Jones first, then on Pirates.
> 
> The only difference in the existing system is you can go on the shorter wait attractions before going on the ride and in my suggested system, you would go on them after going on the ride.
> 
> So, in I don't really see the difference, other than the timing of the attractions.



Here's a few big things.

The first is that you can eliminate up to two hours (or more on the busiest of busy days) of waiting by putting your longest line at the end of the day, then leave the park. So instead of having to wait two hours like a normal guest, you get to leave immediately because... why wait until your return time is back up to leave. That's a huge advantage.

The second is that it gives a travel time advantage that the average guest does not have access to. My understanding of the 15 minute subtraction is because that's the average amount of time one should wait in an FP line (accessible car wait notwithstanding, which is a huge separate issue). So under your system, DAS guests would get "bonus" time of any travel time between rides, if that makes sense. 

An example probably makes it clearer. This has an average guest (average 15 minute FP/alternate entrance wait, 10 minute walk between attractions, no extra use of FPs on anyone's part for simplicity):

Average guest

10 - enter park, walk to attraction
10:30 - enter line A with 45 minute standby wait
11:15 - ride ride A
11:25 - exit attraction, walk to next one
11:35 - enter line B with 60 minute wait
12:35 - ride ride B
12:45 - exit ride B, walk to next one
12:55 - enter line C with 75 minute wait
2:10 - ride ride C

DAS as is - 
10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction
10:30 - get DAS time at attraction A with 45 minute wait, return time 11
11 - enter DAS attraction A
11:15 - ride DAS attraction A
11:25 - exit DAS attraction, walk to next DAS attraction
11:35 - arrive at DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait, get return time for 12:20
12:20 - enter DAS attraction B
12:35 - ride DAS attraction B
12:45 - exit DAS attraction B, walk to next one
12:55 - arrive at DAS attraction C with 75 minute wait, get return time for 1:55
1:55 - enter DAS attraction C
2:10 - ride DAS attraction C

Your system
10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction A
10:30 - enter DAS attraction A line with 45 minute wait
10:45 - ride DAS attraction A
10:55 - leave DAS attraction A, get 30 minute blackout window for ride, walk to next ride
11:25 - enter  next DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait
11:40 - ride DAS attraction B
11:50 - exit DAS attraction, get "45 minute blackout window", walk to next ride
12:35 - enter DAS attraction C line with 75 minute wait
12:50 - ride DAS attraction C
1 - exit DAS attraction C, get "60 minute blackout window" stamp (can enter ride D at 2, likely ride at 2:15, just after both previous systems are on ride C - the first two groups won't even get to ride D until 2:30).

In your proposed system, get to account for your travel time between attractions in this DAS window, something the average guest cannot do. Given the average distance between attractions, that's a huge advantage and a time savings of easily more than an hour over people accessing standby lines. This advantage gets bigger the more the person with the DAS is willing to walk more than 10 minutes to each attraction as well.

Combine that with the ability to "save" a huge amount of time by riding a long-wait ride at the end of the day, and you save the hour or more of travel time at the end of the day plus the length of the final ride. That's a hugely advantageous system that's right back to being very appealing to abuse or over-use.


----------



## kritter47

FWIW, I would make one minor tweak to the existing system as well as try and brainstorm how to fix the larger issue of the accessable car backup.

The minor tweak would be to allow GS to issue an initial return time when giving a new pass in the morning. This would be in an attempt to make up for the time spent actually getting the pass (which can be good for length of stay in my understanding, so it would only be one day's worth of hassle).

The brainstorming would involve a way to track the extra length of time people sometimes have to wait for accessible vehicles on the rides where that does back up. This might best involve the RFID bands (tap as you enter the line then when right before you load and somehow a computer crunches how much "extra" time you waited compared to the average person). That, to me, is a much bigger hurdle to try and cross for equal access than backtracking issues.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:


> Can you explain how the existing system doesn't do the same thing?
> 
> Currently, there is nothing stopping me from getting a return time on Indiana Jones, then riding Pirates when it has only a 5 minute wait and then going on Indiana Jones.
> 
> Under the proposed system, you would go on Indiana Jones first, then on Pirates.
> 
> The only difference in the existing system is you can go on the shorter wait attractions before going on the ride and in my suggested system, you would go on them after going on the ride.
> 
> So, in I don't really see the difference, other than the timing of the attractions.



Exactly, the timing of the attractions is the difference. As applies to non-boarding related disabilities, the proposed system is an unlimited instant fastpass with occasional 10-30 minute delays.  You can use it as many times as you want and it works "right now".  Your travel time to the next attraction comes out of your wait time and you have instant access. For most users with the exception of riding the same thing over and over, they are going to approach, ride a ride that has a long wait, travel to the next location and now maybe wait 5 minutes because they used their wait in the FP, riding, and traveling. As you enter your next line, the person without a DAS is just entering the ride, so 5 minutes after you board ride #2 they get to walk to the next ride for 10 minutes and get into the line. It's more of a "lets make a note on a card as if it makes you wait for something" than an actual blackout.

The difference is the DAS system has people wait their turn to ride. A huge complaint is that people can wait, but just not in the queue, so it directly addresses this issue and says "ok, wait outside the queue." It isn't immediate gratification and it doesn't feel like a slap in the face to people who are trying not to use it. I have to say, if I were to enter a 30 minute line, I just feel like an idiot if I could use an extra unlimited fastpass instead. Giving instant access makes it too tempting of a pass. That is what happened with GAC. 

They released FP+ and it limits how many people get. Then if the park can handle it they are giving people bonus FP+.  The use of the FP line effects standby lines. It follows that use of GAC and DAS effect standby lines. Disney knows this, so if they can cut down on use of the FP+ line by making people wait to use it, they can more easily regulate line times which in turn cuts down on NEED for the DAS.
GAC got to the point where some people only needed the GAC because of people using the GAC.  If that happens with the DAS, it again is creating the problem it was made to solve. This proposed system creates it's own problem by allowing that instant gratification.


----------



## lovethattink

Schmeck said:


> But regular guests have to go to the attraction to get a FP, then go back to use it, don't they? So why would someone with a DAS be given the advantage/privilege of not having to do the go/return trip as well? Disney is basically giving guests with a DAS a FP privilege, even when FPs run out for the day.



That's a yes and no thing.

Yes, to get a FP you have to go twice.

No, standby only goes to the attraction once.


----------



## mistysue

lovethattink said:
			
		

> That's a yes and no thing.
> 
> Yes, to get a FP you have to go twice.
> 
> No, standby only goes to the attraction once.



Standby also has to wait in the line. It has advantages and disadvantages.


----------



## Rowanonfire

It strikes me as odd that people would have a problem with disabled guests getting on a long wait ride last under the proposed system, but currently don't seem to have a problem with the fact that disabled guests are essentially "locked out" of rides at the end of a park day as CM's are refusing to give return times when the line exceeds the time the park will be open - even though normal guests can get into a line right until park closing. 

I guess that problem doesn't matter!!


----------



## AndreaA

kritter47 said:


> In your proposed system, get to account for your travel time between attractions in this DAS window, something the average guest cannot do. Given the average distance between attractions, that's a huge advantage and a time savings of easily more than an hour over people accessing standby lines. This advantage gets bigger the more the person with the DAS is willing to walk more than 10 minutes to each attraction as well.
> 
> Combine that with the ability to "save" a huge amount of time by riding a long-wait ride at the end of the day, and you save the hour or more of travel time at the end of the day plus the length of the final ride. That's a hugely advantageous system that's right back to being very appealing to abuse or over-use.



How long do you think it takes people to travel between rides??  Most of Fantasyland is within 5-10 minutes, so that if someone had a "45 blackout" time after riding Peter Pan, they would STILL be waiting around for at least 35minutes, just like the current system and THEN they will be waiting in the FP line which could easily BE 10 minutes long.  Unless you're suggesting that people are going to use that time to criss-cross the entire park, which is simply ludicrous, particularly for people who are disabled and often need to conserve their energy.

It is extremely sad to me that anyone is seriously begrudging people an easier system just because of the possibility they might "get away with something" because the wait for their last ride won't be accounted for.  What about the waiting it takes to get the DAS card in the first place?

And since many other parks are already using the proposed system, clearly it DOES work.



mistysue said:


> Standby also has to wait in the line. It has advantages and disadvantages.



Yes, but going to the attraction ONCE is the "standard" experience, and isn't the new DAS all about trying to replicate a standard experience?  Why should someone with a DAS have to do more walking or more backtracking than someone without one?



Rowanonfire said:


> It strikes me as odd that people would have a problem with disabled guests getting on a long wait ride last under the proposed system, but currently don't seem to have a problem with the fact that disabled guests are essentially "locked out" of rides at the end of a park day as CM's are refusing to give return times when the line exceeds the time the park will be open - even though normal guests can get into a line right until park closing.
> 
> I guess that problem doesn't matter!!




Well obviously that's because everyone is being treated equal but some people are more equal than others.  And as long as those "more equal" people aren't the entitled disabled people, it's all good.


----------



## kritter47

AndreaA said:


> How long do you think it takes people to travel between rides??  Most of Fantasyland is within 5-10 minutes, so that if someone had a "45 blackout" time after riding Peter Pan, they would STILL be waiting around for at least 35minutes, just like the current system and THEN they will be waiting in the FP line which could easily BE 10 minutes long.  Unless you're suggesting that people are going to use that time to criss-cross the entire park, which is simply ludicrous, particularly for people who are disabled and often need to conserve their energy.
> 
> It is extremely sad to me that anyone is seriously begrudging people an easier system just because of the possibility they might "get away with something" because the wait for their last ride won't be accounted for.  What about the waiting it takes to get the DAS card in the first place?


If you'll notice, I drew out three examples with equivalent wait times and travel times (10 minutes travel, 15 waiting in the FP/alternate entrance line) to show how the time difference can stack up over even with short walks and not-insane wait times. In those times when you're changing lands or otherwise have a longer than 10-minute walk to the next attraction, the impact is an even greater "advantage" for the proposed system guests while the existing DAS guest and standby guests have almost equivalent times. 

I don't begrudge an easier system. But I do believe the system as proposed is very vulnerable to the type of abuse and over-use that Disney was clearly concerned about with the GAC. A system that gives a distinct advantage to the people that use it, combined with the inability to limit that system to a select group of people (since Disney legally cannot ask for proof of disability to acquire a DAS) is exactly what led to problems last time.

I did add the post below the one you quoted (mostly because I felt the first one was getting too long) that did address the time spent getting the DAS as a minor issue I would try and tweak, along with acknowledging the need to do some serious brainstorming about how to address the backup that occurs with the fire code/number of accessible vehicles issue. You might not have noticed that was me, but I do believe there could be some minor tweaks made to make this more equal for everyone involved.

ETA: I also believe that DAS guests should be allowed to get re-entry times for as long as standby guests are allowed to enter the regular line, FWIW.


----------



## cmwade77

kritter47 said:


> Here's a few big things.
> 
> The first is that you can eliminate up to two hours (or more on the busiest of busy days) of waiting by putting your longest line at the end of the day, then leave the park. So instead of having to wait two hours like a normal guest, you get to leave immediately because... why wait until your return time is back up to leave. That's a huge advantage.
> 
> The second is that it gives a travel time advantage that the average guest does not have access to. My understanding of the 15 minute subtraction is because that's the average amount of time one should wait in an FP line (accessible car wait notwithstanding, which is a huge separate issue). So under your system, DAS guests would get "bonus" time of any travel time between rides, if that makes sense.
> 
> An example probably makes it clearer. This has an average guest (average 15 minute FP/alternate entrance wait, 10 minute walk between attractions, no extra use of FPs on anyone's part for simplicity):
> 
> Average guest
> 
> 10 - enter park, walk to attraction
> 10:30 - enter line A with 45 minute standby wait
> 11:15 - ride ride A
> 11:25 - exit attraction, walk to next one
> 11:35 - enter line B with 60 minute wait
> 12:35 - ride ride B
> 12:45 - exit ride B, walk to next one
> 12:55 - enter line C with 75 minute wait
> 2:10 - ride ride C
> 
> DAS as is -
> 10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction
> 10:30 - get DAS time at attraction A with 45 minute wait, return time 11
> 11 - enter DAS attraction A
> 11:15 - ride DAS attraction A
> 11:25 - exit DAS attraction, walk to next DAS attraction
> 11:35 - arrive at DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait, get return time for 12:20
> 12:20 - enter DAS attraction B
> 12:35 - ride DAS attraction B
> 12:45 - exit DAS attraction B, walk to next one
> 12:55 - arrive at DAS attraction C with 75 minute wait, get return time for 1:55
> 1:55 - enter DAS attraction C
> 2:10 - ride DAS attraction C
> 
> Your system
> 10 - enter park with DAS, walk to attraction A
> 10:30 - enter DAS attraction A line with 45 minute wait
> 10:45 - ride DAS attraction A
> 10:55 - leave DAS attraction A, get 30 minute blackout window for ride, walk to next ride
> 11:25 - enter  next DAS attraction B with 60 minute wait
> 11:40 - ride DAS attraction B
> 11:50 - exit DAS attraction, get "45 minute blackout window", walk to next ride
> 12:35 - enter DAS attraction C line with 75 minute wait
> 12:50 - ride DAS attraction C
> 1 - exit DAS attraction C, get "60 minute blackout window" stamp (can enter ride D at 2, likely ride at 2:15, just after both previous systems are on ride C - the first two groups won't even get to ride D until 2:30).
> 
> In your proposed system, get to account for your travel time between attractions in this DAS window, something the average guest cannot do. Given the average distance between attractions, that's a huge advantage and a time savings of easily more than an hour over people accessing standby lines. This advantage gets bigger the more the person with the DAS is willing to walk more than 10 minutes to each attraction as well.
> 
> Combine that with the ability to "save" a huge amount of time by riding a long-wait ride at the end of the day, and you save the hour or more of travel time at the end of the day plus the length of the final ride. That's a hugely advantageous system that's right back to being very appealing to abuse or over-use.





mistysue said:


> Exactly, the timing of the attractions is the difference. As applies to non-boarding related disabilities, the proposed system is an unlimited instant fastpass with occasional 10-30 minute delays.  You can use it as many times as you want and it works "right now".  Your travel time to the next attraction comes out of your wait time and you have instant access. For most users with the exception of riding the same thing over and over, they are going to approach, ride a ride that has a long wait, travel to the next location and now maybe wait 5 minutes because they used their wait in the FP, riding, and traveling. As you enter your next line, the person without a DAS is just entering the ride, so 5 minutes after you board ride #2 they get to walk to the next ride for 10 minutes and get into the line. It's more of a "lets make a note on a card as if it makes you wait for something" than an actual blackout.
> 
> The difference is the DAS system has people wait their turn to ride. A huge complaint is that people can wait, but just not in the queue, so it directly addresses this issue and says "ok, wait outside the queue." It isn't immediate gratification and it doesn't feel like a slap in the face to people who are trying not to use it. I have to say, if I were to enter a 30 minute line, I just feel like an idiot if I could use an extra unlimited fastpass instead. Giving instant access makes it too tempting of a pass. That is what happened with GAC.
> 
> They released FP+ and it limits how many people get. Then if the park can handle it they are giving people bonus FP+.  The use of the FP line effects standby lines. It follows that use of GAC and DAS effect standby lines. Disney knows this, so if they can cut down on use of the FP+ line by making people wait to use it, they can more easily regulate line times which in turn cuts down on NEED for the DAS.
> GAC got to the point where some people only needed the GAC because of people using the GAC.  If that happens with the DAS, it again is creating the problem it was made to solve. This proposed system creates it's own problem by allowing that instant gratification.



Umm, actually, the travel time is already accounted for in the return times (at least at DLR) by the CMs subtracting 10-15 minutes from the wait time to account for the travel time.



kritter47 said:


> The minor tweak would be to allow GS to issue an initial return time when giving a new pass in the morning. This would be in an attempt to make up for the time spent actually getting the pass (which can be good for length of stay in my understanding, so it would only be one day's worth of hassle).


DLR already does this and it does it help, they also adjust the wait time based on how long you were waiting to get the DAS.

But this doesn't solve the larger issues of waiting LONGER than everyone else at EVERY attraction, not getting return times closer to closing, traveling more, etc.

If they did address these issues, then it wouldn't matter if the wait is before or after the ride. But the problem is that these issues are difficult, if not impossible to address.

While my original suggestion solves many, if not most of the problems, here are a few tweaks to the existing system that I could see that could help with this:

Be able to reserve return times from phone and FP+ kiosks and at the attractions at all parks.
Make it a hard rule that if the standby line is open, return times will be issued until the line is closed. Same rule would apply as at attractions, that if you are in line to get a return time when the park closes, you will still get a return time.
Allow for a system that if you miss your FP return window due to your issues, you can go to a kiosk or guest relations location and show it and your DAS to have it reissued. They could write down on the card how often this is done and if it's once or twice a day, no problem. But if it's more, perhaps they need to investigate if more assistance is needed or what is going on and can help determine if the policy is being abused.
Track how long someone waits at each attraction by scanning the QR code when they FIRST get in whatever the return line is and when they board the attraction. Use this information to subtract from subsequent wait times.


----------



## lovethattink

mistysue said:


> Standby also has to wait in the line. It has advantages and disadvantages.



DAS was designed for people who cannot wait in the standby queue for reasons other than mobility. Therefore traveling there once would be equal.


----------



## cmwade77

lovethattink said:


> DAS was designed for people who cannot wait in the standby queue for reasons other than mobility. Therefore traveling there once would be equal.



Regardless of if there are mobility issues or not, traveling there once is what would be equal, as that is what any other guest does.


----------



## lovethattink

cmwade77 said:


> Regardless of if there are mobility issues or not, traveling there once is what would be equal, as that is what any other guest does.



Equal to standby was my point. 

I guess I didn't have to add the rest.


----------



## mistysue

lovethattink said:
			
		

> DAS was designed for people who cannot wait in the standby queue for reasons other than mobility. Therefore traveling there once would be equal.



Traveling once and getting in line is equal. Traveling once and skipping the line is not.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:
			
		

> Umm, actually, the travel time is already accounted for in the return times (at least at DLR) by the CMs subtracting 10-15 minutes from the wait time to account for the travel time.
> 
> 
> But this doesn't solve the larger issues of waiting LONGER than everyone else at EVERY attraction, not getting return times closer to closing, traveling more, etc.



I think you read those backwards, in the proposed system in order to be fair they would need to add for travel time, not subtract. I think they are now subtracting to account for the fp line wait.

I dont think anybody is arguing that the current system is not broken for physical disabilities. I think your proposal makes sense when you bring in limited cars, loading, etc.  The proposed system would create a whole huge problem for non-physical disabilities abuse and overuse. Clearly an across the board system makes little sense.


----------



## Nixie

If CMs are already subtracting 10 - 15 mins to account for the FP lines, why can't they kinda keep track of the accessible line and just subtract the time for that off the initial wait time?


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:


> I think you read those backwards, in the proposed system in order to be fair they would need to add for travel time, not subtract. I think they are now subtracting to account for the fp line wait.
> 
> I dont think anybody is arguing that the current system is not broken for physical disabilities. I think your proposal makes sense when you bring in limited cars, loading, etc.  The proposed system would create a whole huge problem for non-physical disabilities abuse and overuse. Clearly an across the board system makes little sense.


To be fair in the proposed system they would not need to add or subtract travel time at all. Under the current system, they already subtract for travel time, they do not subtract for FP return times. At least that is the official line from the CMs at the DLR, I don't know what the official line from WDW is.


----------



## cmwade77

Nixie said:


> If CMs are already subtracting 10 - 15 mins to account for the FP lines, why can't they kinda keep track of the accessible line and just subtract the time for that off the initial wait time?


I would agree, if wait times were the only issue.

But this doesn't address the issue of additional traveling under the current system, return times not being issued near park closing, etc.


----------



## keishashadow

Nixie said:


> If CMs are already subtracting 10 - 15 mins to account for the FP lines, why can't they kinda keep track of the accessible line and just subtract the time for that off the initial wait time?


 
when we utilized it the first day offered it was explained that the 10 minute subtraction reflected the FP wait time.  It was more on only one attraction in AK but it was mid week and rather slow.

It would be nice if they would utilize those red cards on the lanyards in the FP line (perhaps hourly?) to determine an accurate wait time, especially on E ticket attractions.

Surprised to read post re refusal for return times near the end of the day when Disney has long-standing policy otherwise for those in line to be accommodated.

System was described to us as in testing phase, hopefully they will fine tune it to best accommodate their guests.


----------



## Schmeck

cmwade77 said:


> I would agree, if wait times were the only issue.
> 
> But this doesn't address the issue of additional traveling under the current system, return times not being issued near park closing, etc.



What additional traveling? You go to the podium, get a time, and don't have to wait in the queue. The 'traveling' is all up to the individual guest. You could just go sit on a bench or wall for the allotted wait time. It would be nice if WDW added more benches though.

I do think it is unfair for guests with a DAS to not be allowed to be added to the queue if a queue is still open. If other guests are getting in the queue, then a time should be given. How late are FP return times? Do they go all the way up to closing, or do they stop some time before?


----------



## Rowanonfire

keishashadow said:


> when we utilized it the first day offered it was explained that the 10 minute subtraction reflected the FP wait time.  It was more on only one attraction in AK but it was mid week and rather slow.
> 
> It would be nice if they would utilize those red cards on the lanyards in the FP line (perhaps hourly?) to determine an accurate wait time, especially on E ticket attractions.
> 
> *Surprised to read post re refusal for return times near the end of the day when Disney has long-standing policy otherwise for those in line to be accommodated.*
> 
> System was described to us as in testing phase, hopefully they will fine tune it to best accommodate their guests.



This is where the problem comes in - if there's only 20 mins to park close, but a 60 minute queue, how COULD that be handled for DAS users? You can't give them a return time of 60 minutes...the line will be long closed then...Yet a normal guest can get in line with a minute to park close regardless of wait.

There seems to be no set way of handling this with the DAS currently. It's very unfair to disabled guests, but the only real solution, is to give a shorter return time then the standby queue. Say, 5 minutes to line close . And all the people who are so obsessed about the system being totally "fair" wouldn't be happy about that.


----------



## aaarcher86

Rowanonfire said:


> This is where the problem comes in - if there's only 20 mins to park close, but a 60 minute queue, how COULD that be handled for DAS users? You can't give them a return time of 60 minutes...the line will be long closed then...Yet a normal guest can get in line with a minute to park close regardless of wait.  There seems to be no set way of handling this with the DAS currently. It's very unfair to disabled guests, but the only real solution, is to give a shorter return time then the standby queue. Say, 5 minutes to line close . And all the people who are so obsessed about the system being totally "fair" wouldn't be happy about that.



I don't see the big deal in writing the return for 5 before park closing in this case. It's a unique circumstance. 

I'd also be fine with wheelchair users needing HA vehicles going straight into the WC line without a return time since they have to wait for a specific few cars to make it through the rotation.


----------



## Jrob369

Schmeck said:


> What additional traveling? You go to the podium, get a time, and don't have to wait in the queue. The 'traveling' is all up to the individual guest. You could just go sit on a bench or wall for the allotted wait time. It would be nice if WDW added more benches though.  I do think it is unfair for guests with a DAS to not be allowed to be added to the queue if a queue is still open. If other guests are getting in the queue, then a time should be given. How late are FP return times? Do they go all the way up to closing, or do they stop some time before?



Depending on the disability the extra traveling may be a requirement for the caregiver, if not the individual. For those that can't get near the attraction for whatever reason, the caregiver may have to go get a time and then go gather in an another area. 

Extra traveling may also be required by the individual with the disability for various reasons if they are on their own or with a group of disabled people. They may not be able to be exposed too long in the weather, can't handle overstimulation, etc., depending on the disability. 

These are things that require the accommodation. They aren't just so someone can skip out and go shopping or hit up a short wait ride.  If the disability can be accommodated by sitting on a bench, they probably wouldn't get a card and would probably be referred to wheelchair rentals.


----------



## cmwade77

Schmeck said:
			
		

> What additional traveling? You go to the podium, get a time, and don't have to wait in the queue. The 'traveling' is all up to the individual guest. You could just go sit on a bench or wall for the allotted wait time. It would be nice if WDW added more benches though.
> 
> I do think it is unfair for guests with a DAS to not be allowed to be added to the queue if a queue is still open. If other guests are getting in the queue, then a time should be given. How late are FP return times? Do they go all the way up to closing, or do they stop some time before?



At Disneyland this is not true, you must go to a kiosk, then to the attraction. As I described earlier in this thread that can amount to a lot 9f extra traveling for two attractions that are essentially right next to each other.


----------



## tinkerpea

SueM in MN said:


> I wanted to point out the Universal has been mentioned as using the system the OP suggests. If it is used at Universal, it is Universal in California.
> 
> Universal Studios/IOA in Florida uses basically the save system as Disney's DAS.



Universal Orlando uses the system we have been talking about, I was only there a few months ago and its works very much  like this but better,
If the line is under 20 mins you go on if not then you get a return time


----------



## tinkerpea

CoffeeCup said:


> I don't think I understand either.  Even though you can't use your pass for 60 minutes, can't you go on other rides that have no wait or only a very short wait or see a show?    It seems to me that with  planning, you could go non stop and do much more than people having to wait in the regular line.  Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like a front of the line pass that easily could be abused.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just can't figure out how this system would be fair to people who have to wait in line.  If you add looping to this system, couldn't you ride two or three times while someone else is still in line waiting for their first ride?



The poster understands just fine,
Since we can that with the DAS too!


----------



## cmwade77

tinkerpea said:
			
		

> Universal Orlando uses the system we have been talking about, I was only there a few months ago and its works very much  like this but better,
> If the line is under 20 mins you go on if not then you get a return time



As I have said before, I can't speak about other parks in Florida. The ones I know are California and universal and sea world out here use exactly what I suggested in my original post.


----------



## cmwade77

tinkerpea said:
			
		

> The poster understands just fine,
> Since we can that with the DAS too!



Exactly why I can't understand the difference as far as potential abuse goes. There are other differences, but the differences make the system more equal than it is now.


----------



## Schmeck

Jrob369 said:


> Depending on the disability the extra traveling may be a requirement for the caregiver, if not the individual. For those that can't get near the attraction for whatever reason, the caregiver may have to go get a time and then go gather in an another area.
> 
> Extra traveling may also be required by the individual with the disability for various reasons if they are on their own or with a group of disabled people. They may not be able to be exposed too long in the weather, can't handle overstimulation, etc., depending on the disability.
> 
> These are things that require the accommodation. They aren't just so someone can skip out and go shopping or hit up a short wait ride.  If the disability can be accommodated by sitting on a bench, they probably wouldn't get a card and would probably be referred to wheelchair rentals.



But these are everyday issues that one would have to deal with anyways - not an accommodation because one is at a theme park. The guest would be expected to do whatever it is the family would do in a non-Disney situation. Remember, ADA requires opportunity for equal access, and that is all.


----------



## SueM in MN

cmwade77 said:


> As I have said before, I can't speak about other parks in Florida. The ones I know are California and universal and sea world out here use exactly what I suggested in my original post.



The ones in Orlando give a return time the same as the Disney DAS. 
The difference is they allow immediate access if the line is shorter than a certain amount of minutes (about 20 - I've heard everything from 15 to 30).

Disney may change the amount of 'immediate access' time after DAS has been in use for a while.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:


> Exactly why I can't understand the difference as far as potential abuse goes. There are other differences, but the differences make the system more equal than it is now.



That's the catch, for disabilities that do not involve waiting for extra cars, the proposed change makes it preferential treatment. It is NOT equal. There is nothing _equal _about "I walk up to a ride with a 60 minute wait and enter through fastpass lane, everybody else goes standby."   Unless there were an actual blackout where you had to sit in a room full of people until the standby people got off the ride, it wouldn't be equal. I know that is ridiculous, but trying to argue that something is equal because it benefits you and especially at the expense of others is not reasonable. 

It is just plain unfair that you have to wait because there is a line for accessible vehicles and Disney should address that. Reacting by giving preferential treatment to _any_ other group of people who do NOT have to wait for special vehicles is at the expense of every non-DAS bearing individual in the park. 

The abuse comes in at the proposal gives instant gratification. The DAS does not. Regardless of what you can do with the extra time, it completely changes the abuse potential. If you didn't see a huge benefit, you wouldn't care so much. So think about it for a minute- if it gives you such a huge extra benefit, doesn't it also give other people a huge extra benefit? From what I'm reading it looks like you are saying they are the same as long as they do it my way, but if they don't do it my way it's completely different. So if they are the same, let people wait instead of going on instantly.


----------



## lovethattink

mistysue said:


> That's the catch, for disabilities that do not involve waiting for extra cars, the proposed change makes it preferential treatment. It is NOT equal. There is nothing _equal _about "I walk up to a ride with a 60 minute wait and enter through fastpass lane, everybody else goes standby."   Unless there were an actual blackout where you had to sit in a room full of people until the standby people got off the ride, it wouldn't be equal. I know that is ridiculous, but trying to argue that something is equal because it benefits you and especially at the expense of others is not reasonable.
> 
> It is just plain unfair that you have to wait because there is a line for accessible vehicles and Disney should address that. Reacting by giving preferential treatment to _any_ other group of people who do NOT have to wait for special vehicles is at the expense of every non-DAS bearing individual in the park.
> 
> The abuse comes in at the proposal gives instant gratification. The DAS does not. Regardless of what you can do with the extra time, it completely changes the abuse potential. If you didn't see a huge benefit, you wouldn't care so much. So think about it for a minute- if it gives you such a huge extra benefit, doesn't it also give other people a huge extra benefit? From what I'm reading it looks like you are saying they are the same as long as they do it my way, but if they don't do it my way it's completely different. So if they are the same, let people wait instead of going on instantly.



That makes sense. I see where you are coming from now.

The potential for abuse is still there with the current system, unfortunately.


----------



## Rowanonfire

Universal allow you straight on the ride if the queue is 30 minutes or less, and, interestingly, they just changed their system so that now, if you have a time on you card for a wait of more then 30 minutes, you can still use your pass to go on attractions of 30mins or less wait as you're waiting for your other ride time. It seems to me this is convenient timing when so many people are claiming they will not go to Disney now. 

At Seaworld you can get several return times at once. I personally, have no problem with Disney's system, however, they now seem to offer the "least" of the parks at a glance, which will only fuel the complainers.


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:
			
		

> That's the catch, for disabilities that do not involve waiting for extra cars, the proposed change makes it preferential treatment. It is NOT equal. There is nothing equal about "I walk up to a ride with a 60 minute wait and enter through fastpass lane, everybody else goes standby."   Unless there were an actual blackout where you had to sit in a room full of people until the standby people got off the ride, it wouldn't be equal. I know that is ridiculous, but trying to argue that something is equal because it benefits you and especially at the expense of others is not reasonable.
> 
> It is just plain unfair that you have to wait because there is a line for accessible vehicles and Disney should address that. Reacting by giving preferential treatment to any other group of people who do NOT have to wait for special vehicles is at the expense of every non-DAS bearing individual in the park.
> 
> The abuse comes in at the proposal gives instant gratification. The DAS does not. Regardless of what you can do with the extra time, it completely changes the abuse potential. If you didn't see a huge benefit, you wouldn't care so much. So think about it for a minute- if it gives you such a huge extra benefit, doesn't it also give other people a huge extra benefit? From what I'm reading it looks like you are saying they are the same as long as they do it my way, but if they don't do it my way it's completely different. So if they are the same, let people wait instead of going on instantly.


I disagree that my system would lead to more abuse, mostly because the record proves otherwise at other parks that use what I suggest. 

That being said, I have also suggested in recent posts other ways that might help solve the issues.

Again, the main issues that i have are:
Guests who need assistance must travel further than the ones who don't.  (Particularly at Disneyland, but also at WDW to some extent, depending on the needs)

Guests who need assistance are always waiting longer than those that don't. 

Not being able to get return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open. 

Another possible solution would be for every attraction to have an ipad and have your first return time issued at GR, then have the next time assigned at the ride you just got off of. They could even assign it when getting in line, but account for about how long you would wait there and the length of that ride in the return time. So, this could solve two of the issues, but this still doesn't solve return times close to closing.

I am not saying my way is the only way, but I am saying my way solves these issues and I still maintain without an increase in abuse, as the parks who changed from return time passes to what I suggested have reported that they saw a decrease in abuse once they started doing what I suggested in the first post.


----------



## aaarcher86

cmwade77 said:


> I disagree that my system would lead to more abuse, mostly because the record proves otherwise at other parks that use what I suggest.  That being said, I have also suggested in recent posts other ways that might help solve the issues.  Again, the main issues that i have are: Guests who need assistance must travel further than the ones who don't.  (Particularly at Disneyland, but also at WDW to some extent, depending on the needs)  Guests who need assistance are always waiting longer than those that don't.  Not being able to get return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open.  Another possible solution would be for every attraction to have an ipad and have your first return time issued at GR, then have the next time assigned at the ride you just got off of. They could even assign it when getting in line, but account for about how long you would wait there and the length of that ride in the return time. So, this could solve two of the issues, but this still doesn't solve return times close to closing.  I am not saying my way is the only way, but I am saying my way solves these issues and I still maintain without an increase in abuse, as the parks who changed from return time passes to what I suggested have reported that they saw a decrease in abuse once they started doing what I suggested in the first post.



Yes, but parks also use the current DAS system just fine as well. 

I think keeping it the way it is, allowing immediate access into the WC line versus a return time, and allowing return times being given as 5 minutes before the park closes would be an easy fix. 

Adding a few more kiosks would be nice, but I think it's hard to gauge how much the average guest walks around the park as well. I've hoofed it across the parks on multiple occasions.


----------



## lmb80129

We used the new DAS system on Oct 19th and believe the only way it will work for us is if Disney goes to Universal's system and lets DAS holders use fast pass lines or alternate entrances for rides with a 30 minute or less wait.  I would also like to see Disney give DAS holders some leeway on return times for normal fast pass returns.  

After a day at Magic Kingdom using the DAS, our family agreed that we may need to find other ways to spend our vacations.  The extra melt downs and wear and tear running around the park to get return times to wait even more in wheel chair lines made the day not worth the money spent.  There was little Disney magic, mainly hard work and dread and avoidance of the next melt down. The DAS as it exists now may work for some but not for my cognitively and physically impaired 13 year old.


----------



## disney david

cmwade77 said:


> I disagree that my system would lead to more abuse, mostly because the record proves otherwise at other parks that use what I suggest.
> 
> That being said, I have also suggested in recent posts other ways that might help solve the issues.
> 
> Again, the main issues that i have are:
> Guests who need assistance must travel further than the ones who don't.  (Particularly at Disneyland, but also at WDW to some extent, depending on the needs)
> 
> Guests who need assistance are always waiting longer than those that don't.
> 
> Not being able to get return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open.
> 
> Another possible solution would be for every attraction to have an ipad and have your first return time issued at GR, then have the next time assigned at the ride you just got off of. They could even assign it when getting in line, but account for about how long you would wait there and the length of that ride in the return time. So, this could solve two of the issues, but this still doesn't solve return times close to closing.
> 
> I am not saying my way is the only way, but I am saying my way solves these issues and I still maintain without an increase in abuse, as the parks who changed from return time passes to what I suggested have reported that they saw a decrease in abuse once they started doing what I suggested in the first post.



I am sorry not trying to aurgue but their really no system that isn't abuse proof even he das could be if someone who has nothing better to do.

I do think your system could be abuse more do to the fact people will see that you wait less and get on the ride quicker.

Now you have to wait which is a deterrent to abuse yes they should and will most likely fix the issue of having to walk a little more. But jest using fast pass has to do the same thing but they only have the hour time window to use it.

Under the current das and using fast pass plus/fast pass in dl you will be on average getting on more rides then able bodied people. Just using their three fast pass reservations and using  stand by  so you have to give and take. Yes you may have to walk a little longer but you have the chance to get on more rides. Where guest using stand by yes don't have to go back twice but might not be able to get on as many rides or be able to do as much. Also with fast pass plus you can't park hop you have to choose the park you want and pick your three with the das you can park hop.

Is das perfect no can their be changes made to it yes will their be yes will they change he whole system no not now.


----------



## Southerndisney

lmb80129, I was very sorry that your day at Disney was just not worth the money. I have not been to Disney yet since the change, but we felt that same way after visiting another park that had a very similar system to the new DAS. Hopefully Disney will make changes to the DAS that will allow you to enjoy going to Disney again. I  would contact Disney and let them know the problems that you encountered.


----------



## TheRustyScupper

lmb80129 said:


> We used the new DAS system on Oct 19th and believe the only way it will work for us is if Disney goes to Universal's system and lets DAS holders use fast pass lines or alternate entrances for rides with a 30 minute or less wait.  I would also like to see Disney give DAS holders some leeway on return times for normal fast pass returns . . .




1) Handicap folks do need access assistance, morally and legally.
2) But, why do they get to ride more often than non-handicapped?
3) But, why should they get Fast Pass liberties that others cannot.
4) Non-handicap and handicap pay the same for admission.
5) Other than ease of access, shouldn't everyone get equal treatment for rides and Fast Passes?
6) This is why the new (DAS) system should work so well.
7) People are now put on equal footing, just as they should be.

_NOTE: Some say they need help because a party member can't wait in
the lines. With the new system, they can easily wait elsewhere until it
is time for get into the FP line for entry into the ride/attraction._


----------



## Nixie

I am sorry, but I just don't agree with the " it causes more travel because you have to go up to the ride, get your time, and come back to ride". That is the exact same thing that happens when you get a fastpass. I have to go up to the fastpass machine which is usually located right next to the ride, get my ticket, and come back later when my time is up.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:
			
		

> I disagree that my system would lead to more abuse, mostly because the record proves otherwise at other parks that use what I suggest.
> 
> That being said, I have also suggested in recent posts other ways that might help solve the issues.
> 
> Again, the main issues that i have are:
> Guests who need assistance must travel further than the ones who don't.  (Particularly at Disneyland, but also at WDW to some extent, depending on the needs)
> 
> Guests who need assistance are always waiting longer than those that don't.
> 
> Not being able to get return times close to closing, even though the standby line is open.
> 
> Another possible solution would be for every attraction to have an ipad and have your first return time issued at GR, then have the next time assigned at the ride you just got off of. They could even assign it when getting in line, but account for about how long you would wait there and the length of that ride in the return time. So, this could solve two of the issues, but this still doesn't solve return times close to closing.
> 
> I am not saying my way is the only way, but I am saying my way solves these issues and I still maintain without an increase in abuse, as the parks who changed from return time passes to what I suggested have reported that they saw a decrease in abuse once they started doing what I suggested in the first post.


Thats great if places find it cuts down on abuse/overuse. I know I was dreading the day my daughter noticed the GAC as she would not understand why this was an option and she did not have it. I had to stop a woman near us in the fp+ line on our last trip bragging about it before my daughter figured out what she was saying. (Only person on many trips I've ever heard say anything out loud) I would have had the 10 year old laying on the ground screaming until we dragged her away. We do a lot of redirecting to get her to see only the magic we need her to see. 

If it doesnt up abuse I dont care too much what they have to do, I just dont want the use rate to force us to need it. Luckily we all can walk long distances so we end up running across the park to get to a 5 minute wait because lines just don't go well.

If you havent already you should be suggesting initiating a policy as suggested at least for those with boarding assistance or alternate vehicles needed.


----------



## infopurposesonly

mistysue said:


> Thats great if places find it cuts down on abuse/overuse. I know I was dreading the day my daughter noticed the GAC as she would not understand why this was an option and she did not have it. I had to stop a woman near us in the fp+ line on our last trip bragging about it before my daughter figured out what she was saying. (Only person on many trips I've ever heard say anything out loud) I would have had the 10 year old laying on the ground screaming until we dragged her away. We do a lot of redirecting to get her to see only the magic we need her to see.
> 
> If it doesnt up abuse I dont care too much what they have to do, I just dont want the use rate to force us to need it. Luckily we all can walk long distances so we end up running across the park to get to a 5 minute wait because lines just don't go well.
> 
> If you havent already you should be suggesting initiating a policy as suggested at least for those with boarding assistance or alternate vehicles needed.



Really?!?  People with disabilities should not be accommodated because your ten-year-old might be jealous of disabled people?  So instead of adjusting your parenting to work on your child's attitude, we should just make sure these accommodations are not allowed.  OK, I get it now.


----------



## aaarcher86

infopurposesonly said:


> Really?!?  People with disabilities should not be accommodated because your ten-year-old might be jealous of disabled people?  So instead of adjusting your parenting to work on your child's attitude, we should just make sure these accommodations are not allowed.  OK, I get it now.



I assumed she has a child with some form of disability but doesn't use the DAS for herself.


----------



## mistysue

infopurposesonly said:
			
		

> Really?!?  People with disabilities should not be accommodated because your ten-year-old might be jealous of disabled people?  So instead of adjusting your parenting to work on your child's attitude, we should just make sure these accommodations are not allowed.  OK, I get it now.



That is not what I said. Please read before jumping at people. This has nothing to do with adjusting an attitude, thanks for the insult though. Exactly what we need is to just be rude to everybody.  

I dont want a system that provides a huge enough advantage that it invites abuse, forcing people who boarder on needing it to badly need it.


----------



## infopurposesonly

aaarcher86 said:


> I assumed she has a child with some form of disability but doesn't use the DAS for herself.



If so, that is her own choice.  It should not mean someone else should not be accommodated.  The only solution to her child's issue is for nobody to have a DAS becasue it will appear to her child just as a GAC would.  The people with a DAS will still be in the alternate entrance line.  They won't be wearing big signs that say "I already waited 120 minutes outside the line."  If she can't or won't explain to her child that some people need additional accommodations, that's her issue.


----------



## cmwade77

Just a reminder let's all play nice.


----------



## mistysue

infopurposesonly said:
			
		

> If so, that is her own choice.  It should not mean someone else should not be accommodated.  The only solution to her child's issue is for nobody to have a DAS becasue it will appear to her child just as a GAC would.  The people with a DAS will still be in the alternate entrance line.  They won't be wearing big signs that say "I already waited 120 minutes outside the line."  If she can't or won't explain to her child that some people need additional accommodations, that's her issue.



I NEVER said people should not be accomodated. No, I don't want there to be no system.


----------



## cmwade77

TheRustyScupper said:


> 1) Handicap folks do need access assistance, morally and legally.
> 2) But, why do they get to ride more often than non-handicapped?
> 3) But, why should they get Fast Pass liberties that others cannot.
> 4) Non-handicap and handicap pay the same for admission.
> 5) Other than ease of access, shouldn't everyone get equal treatment for rides and Fast Passes?
> 6) This is why the new (DAS) system should work so well.
> 7) People are now put on equal footing, just as they should be.
> 
> _NOTE: Some say they need help because a party member can't wait in
> the lines. With the new system, they can easily wait elsewhere until it
> is time for get into the FP line for entry into the ride/attraction._


Here are my responses to the above:

You are completely correct, they do need assistance.
They should not get to ride more than other guests, but they also should not get to ride less than other guests. Equality means that both should be able to do the EXACT same number of attractions in the EXACT same amount of wait time.
They should have the ability to come back after a FP time, if they missed it due to the issues that they need assistance for. The reasoning is simple: Someone without these issues can always return within the window or wait in the standby line. Those with these issues cannot always do so. For example, I may get a FP for Space Mountain, but if my issue hits during my return window, I may miss it. This is why the GAC system and it's flexibility worked well. So, now something needs to be done to allow some flexibility. As I said before, I would add in checks and balances to make sure that the flexibility is not being abused, but it should be there.
This is exactly WHY they should be able to do the EXACT same number of attractions in the EXACT same amount of time.
Yes, everyone should be treated the same, but the problem is that many people don't see it that way. By the same, I mean the same amount of waiting for both those that need assistance and those that don't. But that also means the same amount of walking, the same ability to enter a que right before park closing, etc.
I disagree, the new DAS has flaws that anyone could have seen coming, such as waiting longer than other guests, walking more, etc.
See comment on #6 for how they are not on equal footing.


----------



## going/again

Schmeck said:


> Remember, ADA requires opportunity for equal access, and that is all.



Wouldn't that mean on every ride there should be an equal number of wheelchair accessible vehicles  as none accessible. How many rides have more than 1?


----------



## going/again

aaarcher86 said:


> Adding a few more kiosks would be nice, but I think it's hard to gauge how much the average guest walks around the park as well. I've hoofed it across the parks on multiple occasions.



Ever tried to get around on four wheels, as the parks get more and more crowded its getting worse.


----------



## cmwade77

Nixie said:


> I am sorry, but I just don't agree with the " it causes more travel because you have to go up to the ride, get your time, and come back to ride". That is the exact same thing that happens when you get a fastpass. I have to go up to the fastpass machine which is usually located right next to the ride, get my ticket, and come back later when my time is up.



But the issue is that you don't get a FP for EVERY attraction, which is essentially what this system requires a person to do. This is why it DOES cause extra traveling, again, especially at Disneyland, where you MUST go to a kiosk to get a return time.

There is a great example on the official DLR thread of someone who was in ToonTown and wanted to get a return time for Gadget's Go Coaster. This would mean going down a non-ADA compliant hill to a kiosk in Fantasyland, getting the return time, then going back up the hill to go on the ride. No, I don't know all of the details as to why they didn't get a return time before going into ToonTown, my guess is that they already had one for Roger Rabbit's Cartoon spin. You might say that they could have gotten a FP for that, but that may or may not be true, as some days FP is available for it and some days it isn't. So, when it isn't available, you would need a return time for Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin and Gadget's Go Coaster. Both are in the same land and the nearest kiosk is a good distance away. How does this NOT cause more traveling than someone who is physically able to get in both standby queues?


----------



## cmwade77

going/again said:


> Ever tried to get around on four wheels, as the parks get more and more crowded its getting worse.



I haven't, but I have been with those that have and it's not fun.

Also, I don't think it's about how much the average guest "hooves it". I think it is about the opportunity that they have to not do the extra traveling.

Guests who do not need assistance ALWAYS have the choice of the standby line, which means they ALWAYS have the choice to not go to the attraction, leave and come back.

Guests who do need assistance don't get that choice at most attractions, meaning, they always have to go to the attraction (or kiosk), then leave and come back. Even if leaving means going to the nearest bench, that is still leaving the attraction. And that doesn't even factor in the kiosks, such as in the example I posted above.


----------



## going/again

TheRustyScupper said:


> 4) Non-handicap and handicap pay the same for admission.



True they do and how many cars, boats, whatever have equal numbers of disabled cars, boats, whatever to none disabled, you could ride 2 rides while someone who needs accessible vehicle is still waiting in line where's that fair or equal.

Also think about the number of rides that you can't go on if you can't transfer. if you want fairness they should be charge less. this is not a choice like oh I don't like that ride so I won't go on it, your not allowed.


----------



## going/again

infopurposesonly said:


> Really?!?  People with disabilities should not be accommodated because your ten-year-old might be jealous of disabled people?  So instead of adjusting your parenting to work on your child's attitude, we should just make sure these accommodations are not allowed.  OK, I get it now.



You might want to re read her post.


----------



## lmb80129

TheRustyScupper said:


> 1) Handicap folks do need access assistance, morally and legally.
> 2) But, why do they get to ride more often than non-handicapped?
> 3) But, why should they get Fast Pass liberties that others cannot.
> 4) Non-handicap and handicap pay the same for admission.
> 5) Other than ease of access, shouldn't everyone get equal treatment for rides and Fast Passes?
> 6) This is why the new (DAS) system should work so well.
> 7) People are now put on equal footing, just as they should be.
> 
> _NOTE: Some say they need help because a party member can't wait in
> the lines. With the new system, they can easily wait elsewhere until it
> is time for get into the FP line for entry into the ride/attraction._



I hesitated for a long time to post anything about our experience to these threads because of posts like this.  I was simply stating what it would take to make it worthwhile for us to take our disabled teenage son to Disney.  Disney and a lot of folks agree with your assessment.  I would try to point out that until you try waiting elsewhere with a child with significant cognitive and physical disabilities, you may not think it is all that easy.  However, having read lots of threads comparing disabled children to toddlers and other kids that have trouble waiting, there are a lot of people that agree with you.  But the point is moot as DAS is here.  Whether the DAS is fair and equal and does what Disney and general public expect it to do, time will tell.  Everyone that enters Disney gets to judge if it is a good value and experience and if they will come back.  We have decided that the DAS did not work for my family in its current form and other vacations may work better for us.


----------



## cmwade77

lmb80129 said:


> I hesitated for a long time to post anything about our experience to these threads because of posts like this.  I was simply stating what it would take to make it worthwhile for us to take our disabled teenage son to Disney.  Disney and a lot of folks agree with your assessment.  I would try to point out that until you try waiting elsewhere with a child with significant cognitive and physical disabilities, you may not think it is all that easy.  However, having read lots of threads comparing disabled children to toddlers and other kids that have trouble waiting, there are a lot of people that agree with you.  But the point is moot as DAS is here.  Whether the DAS is fair and equal and does what Disney and general public expect it to do, time will tell.  Everyone that enters Disney gets to judge if it is a good value and experience and if they will come back.  We have decided that the DAS did not work for my family in its current form and other vacations may work better for us.


I have two suggestions for you:
First is write Disney, not only via the website and the link for guests with disabilities, but also write a physical letter. Let them know your experience with the system, be as detailed as possible about what the problems were and how it impacted your vacation. I can tell you that there are listening to everyone right now and if you make sure that they know how upset this made you, chances are they will try to make it right by at least trying to fix the system in the future based on feedback.

Second is to keep your eye on this, one thing that I am certain will happen is that the DAS system WILL be tweaked based on all of the feedback that they are getting.


----------



## aaarcher86

going/again said:


> Ever tried to get around on four wheels, as the parks get more and more crowded its getting worse.



Not personally, but I've experienced it. At some point it comes a bit with the territory. I'm all for more kiosks if it would help, or having the option of getting a return time at the particular ride in conjunction with kiosks.


----------



## curemyreed

@cmwade----Could you post a list of the theme parks using the system you propose or one very similar? Somewhere back in the thread I saw that you and a poster from the U.K. had mentioned some.

I ask because between the DAS and FP changes we may not be able to go to Disney anymore. My DD has numerous disabilities. Additionally, she fixates on riding just a few rides repeatedly.  She has been going to WDW 1-2 times per year for 7 years....always at the very least crowded times of the year and touring at rope drop and using FP. She has required the use of the GAC each time despite strategic touring. (And, no, not to ride a ride over and over while you stood in line, flamers.) Cognitively she will not be able to understand the changes required of her. I'm thinking if we go to a different park she may be able to adapt to the DAS system there since she isn't accustomed to another way. The "problem" for us would be that Disney characters & theming are a large part of the appeal for her; i.e SeaWorld was a waste of money as she wasn't interested and doesn't like big coasters.

Thanks. And thanks for responding to everyone's questions/concerns regarding your proposed DAS system. I completely get it now & believe it would be more successful for my DD's various differences than the new DAS system...especially with the inability to have access to FP's as we had in the past.


----------



## Jrob369

cmwade77 said:


> But the issue is that you don't get a FP for EVERY attraction, which is essentially what this system requires a person to do. This is why it DOES cause extra traveling, again, especially at Disneyland, where you MUST go to a kiosk to get a return time.  There is a great example on the official DLR thread of someone who was in ToonTown and wanted to get a return time for Gadget's Go Coaster. This would mean going down a non-ADA compliant hill to a kiosk in Fantasyland, getting the return time, then going back up the hill to go on the ride. No, I don't know all of the details as to why they didn't get a return time before going into ToonTown, my guess is that they already had one for Roger Rabbit's Cartoon spin. You might say that they could have gotten a FP for that, but that may or may not be true, as some days FP is available for it and some days it isn't. So, when it isn't available, you would need a return time for Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin and Gadget's Go Coaster. Both are in the same land and the nearest kiosk is a good distance away. How does this NOT cause more traveling than someone who is physically able to get in both standby queues?



This will become more inequitable when they get rid of regular fastpass in Disney World. They will reduce the walking for all but the disabled if the disability doesn't allow scheduling around fastpass plus.


----------



## cmwade77

curemyreed said:


> @cmwade----Could you post a list of the theme parks using the system you propose or one very similar? Somewhere back in the thread I saw that you and a poster from the U.K. had mentioned some.
> 
> I ask because between the DAS and FP changes we may not be able to go to Disney anymore. My DD has numerous disabilities. Additionally, she fixates on riding just a few rides repeatedly.  She has been going to WDW 1-2 times per year for 7 years....always at the very least crowded times of the year and touring at rope drop and using FP. She has required the use of the GAC each time despite strategic touring. (And, no, not to ride a ride over and over while you stood in line, flamers.) Cognitively she will not be able to understand the changes required of her. I'm thinking if we go to a different park she may be able to adapt to the DAS system there since she isn't accustomed to another way. The "problem" for us would be that Disney characters & theming are a large part of the appeal for her; i.e SeaWorld was a waste of money as she wasn't interested and doesn't like big coasters.
> 
> Thanks. And thanks for responding to everyone's questions/concerns regarding your proposed DAS system. I completely get it now & believe it would be more successful for my DD's various differences than the new DAS system...especially with the inability to have access to FP's as we had in the past.


Universal Studios Hollywood (California)
Sea World - San Diego (California)

These are the two that I know for sure use the system that I have suggested, others have mentioned that there are other parks that use the system I have suggested.

That being said, I recommend keeping an eye on the DAS, it will inevitably be tweaked and may end up at a point where it is doable for you.


----------



## lovethattink

lmb80129 said:


> *We used the new DAS system on Oct 19th and believe the only way it will work for us is if Disney goes to Universal's system and lets DAS holders use fast pass lines or alternate entrances for rides with a 30 minute or less wait.  I would also like to see Disney give DAS holders some leeway on return times for normal fast pass returns*.
> 
> After a day at Magic Kingdom using the DAS, our family agreed that we may need to find other ways to spend our vacations.  The extra melt downs and wear and tear running around the park to get return times to wait even more in wheel chair lines made the day not worth the money spent.  There was little Disney magic, mainly hard work and dread and avoidance of the next melt down. The DAS as it exists now may work for some but not for my cognitively and physically impaired 13 year old.



Those are changes that would accommodate my son better too. And I did write in and make those suggestions as well. 

One advantage I think that my family had on yours was I was forewarned about DAS being more work for us. I had written Guest services before DAS started and was given a number to call with additional questions. I did call and all my questions were answered. The cm informed me that it was going to take planning and partnering with Disney to make this change successful. So I went that first day knowing there was going to be more expected of me as the caregiver.

Time is an accommodation that is made related to school work and tests. Leniency of return time for FP or FP+ would be similar. 

I do think a 10 minute window is not enough. But I'm on the fence about a change to it. A larger window may open the door to more abuse making it look more attractive. On the other hand, it would be helpful taking into account the extra wait we had at JC where the wait for an accessible car is longer.

Last time we went to a park it was hot and humid. Finding air conditioned waiting areas and entertaining for that time was work. It's cooler this weekend, so I'm interested in seeing how cooler weather affects our park time. It should make things much better since we won't have to find indoor areas for entertainment between attractions.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> But the issue is that you don't get a FP for EVERY attraction, which is essentially what this system requires a person to do. This is why it DOES cause extra traveling, again, especially at Disneyland, where you MUST go to a kiosk to get a return time.



No one is required to get a FP or return time for every ride.   You may choose to, but you're not required to.


----------



## OurBigTrip

curemyreed said:


> @cmwade----Could you post a list of the theme parks using the system you propose or one very similar? Somewhere back in the thread I saw that you and a poster from the U.K. had mentioned some.
> 
> I ask because between the DAS and FP changes we may not be able to go to Disney anymore. My DD has numerous disabilities. Additionally, she fixates on riding just a few rides repeatedly.  She has been going to WDW 1-2 times per year for 7 years....always at the very least crowded times of the year and touring at rope drop and using FP. She has required the use of the GAC each time despite strategic touring. (And, no, not to ride a ride over and over while you stood in line, flamers.) Cognitively she will not be able to understand the changes required of her. I'm thinking if we go to a different park she may be able to adapt to the DAS system there since she isn't accustomed to another way. The "problem" for us would be that Disney characters & theming are a large part of the appeal for her; i.e SeaWorld was a waste of money as she wasn't interested and doesn't like big coasters.
> 
> Thanks. And thanks for responding to everyone's questions/concerns regarding your proposed DAS system. I completely get it now & believe it would be more successful for my DD's various differences than the new DAS system...especially with the inability to have access to FP's as we had in the past.



No one is taking away the use of FP's...you can still use the with the DAS.


----------



## KPeveler

OurBigTrip said:


> No one is required to get a FP or return time for every ride.   You may choose to, but you're not required to.



No, we do not HAVE to get a FP, but we do HAVE to use the DAS.  Or get a wheelchair return card (for those rides that are not mainstreamed). And that means going to the actual ride...  wheeling all the way to the ride, then go somewhere, then go back.  And while many others have this fantasy of me going on a million rides while "waiting in line" with the first FP, I am not actually allowed on most other rides due to my wc, and I cannot wait in those lines anyway!  Hence the DAS.

If I was allowed to get the return time for the next attraction as I am leaving the first, it would be fine, but I have to go all the way to the next attraction to get a time!  Too much wheeling for me travelling solo!


----------



## cmwade77

OurBigTrip said:
			
		

> No one is required to get a FP or return time for every ride.   You may choose to, but you're not required to.



But there are attractions where you are required to get a Return Time, such as in my case where there are physical turnstiles. Now someone else doesn't have to get a FP for that attraction. But I have no choice but to get a Return Time and since I don't have a wheelchair, I must go to the kiosk to get it.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> But there are attractions where you are required to get a Return Time, such as in my case where there are physical turnstiles. Now someone else doesn't have to get a FP for that attraction. But I have no choice but to get a Return Time and since I don't have a wheelchair, I must go to the kiosk to get it.



If you have a DAS, you have to get a return time from the kiosk.  If you don't have a DAS, my understanding is that you get the return time at the attraction.


----------



## IndianaPrincess

I had to stop reading this on the second or third page due to people's obsession with "fair".  But still, I wanted to add that I love the idea of waiting the amount of wait time after you ride. LOVE IT.  I also would have liked to be able to get another RT once our current time had come without striking it out. We waited... but just couldn't get over to that ride at the time. It would have been great for that to be reflected somehow.

*JUST FOR DISNEYLAND AND DCA* - For the love of everything good in the world, please let the attraction CM give out return times or triple the amount of kiosks. 

*JUST FOR DISNEYLAND* - There needs to be a wheelchair DAS system. The return card system has many defects (open times, holding many at once, return locations mixed in with DAS holders, confusion on what attractions get them and where, etc).


----------



## tinkerpea

aaarcher86 said:


> Yes, but parks also use the current DAS system just fine as well.
> 
> I think keeping it the way it is, allowing immediate access into the WC line versus a return time, and allowing return times being given as 5 minutes before the park closes would be an easy fix.
> 
> Adding a few more kiosks would be nice, but I think it's hard to gauge how much the average guest walks around the park as well. I've hoofed it across the parks on multiple occasions.



But there are many people who are not finding the current DAS just fine, 
That's the point!


----------



## cmwade77

IndianaPrincess said:


> I had to stop reading this on the second or third page due to people's obsession with "fair".  But still, I wanted to add that I love the idea of waiting the amount of wait time after you ride. LOVE IT.  I also would have liked to be able to get another RT once our current time had come without striking it out. We waited... but just couldn't get over to that ride at the time. It would have been great for that to be reflected somehow.
> 
> *JUST FOR DISNEYLAND AND DCA* - For the love of everything good in the world, please let the attraction CM give out return times or triple the amount of kiosks.
> 
> *JUST FOR DISNEYLAND* - There needs to be a wheelchair DAS system. The return card system has many defects (open times, holding many at once, return locations mixed in with DAS holders, confusion on what attractions get them and where, etc).



Yes, I agree with this obsession about it always being fair. I don't ask for fair, I ask for EQUAL, which to me means equal waits, etc.

The problem with only giving out return times at the attractions is that it causes people to have to go all the way to an attraction, just to be told that you will need to leave and come back however much later. At most attractions this wouldn't be much of an issue, but there are a few that are not near services that those who need the assistance might also need. Ultimately, I think they should be able to give out return times at the kiosks OR at the attraction it's self.

There definitely does need to be a wheelchair DAS system, but it should also not necessarily follow the same rules. The return times should be given out based on attraction load for wheelchairs. For example, there are 10 people ahead of you needing the ADA vehicle, we will issue a return time accordingly. This may or may not coincide with the length of the line, so it may be that they need to be allowed more than one return time.

Again, my proposed solution eliminates all of this complexity.


----------



## tinkerpea

lmb80129 said:


> We used the new DAS system on Oct 19th and believe the only way it will work for us is if Disney goes to Universal's system and lets DAS holders use fast pass lines or alternate entrances for rides with a 30 minute or less wait.  I would also like to see Disney give DAS holders some leeway on return times for normal fast pass returns.
> 
> After a day at Magic Kingdom using the DAS, our family agreed that we may need to find other ways to spend our vacations.  The extra melt downs and wear and tear running around the park to get return times to wait even more in wheel chair lines made the day not worth the money spent.  There was little Disney magic, mainly hard work and dread and avoidance of the next melt down. The DAS as it exists now may work for some but not for my cognitively and physically impaired 13 year old.



I'm so sorry you had a hard time at the parks with the current DAS and I really hope they turn to universals system on the system that's being talked about on here.


----------



## cmwade77

OurBigTrip said:


> If you have a DAS, you have to get a return time from the kiosk.  If you don't have a DAS, my understanding is that you get the return time at the attraction.



Exactly my point, since I have a DAS, if I want to go on Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin (when FP is not available) and Gadget's Go Coaster. I have to go to a kiosk (nearest one is near the Teacups in Fantasyland) to get a return time for one. Then I have to leave ToonTown, walk down a non-ADA compliant hill, go back to over by the teacups to get a return time for the other. Then walk back up the non-ADA compliant hill and go on the other attraction.

Imagine doing things like that ALL day long. Can you see why we are saying the system is not EQUAL?


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> Exactly my point, since I have a DAS, if I want to go on Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin (when FP is not available) and Gadget's Go Coaster. I have to go to a kiosk (nearest one is near the Teacups in Fantasyland) to get a return time for one. Then I have to leave ToonTown, walk down a non-ADA compliant hill, go back to over by the teacups to get a return time for the other. Then walk back up the non-ADA compliant hill and go on the other attraction.
> 
> Imagine doing things like that ALL day long. Can you see why we are saying the system is not EQUAL?



Yes, I can see where it isn't equal.  Of course, it also isn't equal that you can ride an attraction while waiting for two other attractions, whereas non-DAS holders can't. 

There is no way to make it exactly equal, but it can't, or at least shouldn't, go back to the way the GAC was.  

I still think the best way is what I proposed earlier, i.e., allow DAS holders to get wait times for many rides at the beginning of the day, with the wait time for each one added to the end of the previous one.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> Exactly my point, since I have a DAS, if I want to go on Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin (when FP is not available) and Gadget's Go Coaster. I have to go to a kiosk (nearest one is near the Teacups in Fantasyland) to get a return time for one. Then I have to leave ToonTown, walk down a non-ADA compliant hill, go back to over by the teacups to get a return time for the other. Then walk back up the non-ADA compliant hill and go on the other attraction.
> 
> Imagine doing things like that ALL day long. Can you see why we are saying the system is not EQUAL?



And I have to admit, I cracked up at the "non-ADA compliant hill" comment. I can only assume that you're joking, and that you don't really expect Disney to flatten out the hill.


----------



## Robbi

Rowanonfire said:


> It strikes me as odd that people would have a problem with disabled guests getting on a long wait ride last under the proposed system, but currently don't seem to have a problem with the fact that disabled guests are essentially "locked out" of rides at the end of a park day as CM's are refusing to give return times when the line exceeds the time the park will be open - even though normal guests can get into a line right until park closing.
> 
> I guess that problem doesn't matter!!



My eyes have been opened with all the DAS threads. There are some people who have been very ugly about those with diabilities getting any consideration at all. Some have even posted that those with kids who can't deal with wait times should stay home.


----------



## cmwade77

OurBigTrip said:


> And I have to admit, I cracked up at the "non-ADA compliant hill" comment. I can only assume that you're joking, and that you don't really expect Disney to flatten out the hill.



No, of course I don't. The description is for the benefit of the people on here that only know WDW, so they can understand how hard this travel can indeed be.

That being said, there are ways that they could fix the issue, for example bring back the Jolly Trolley and extend the tracks to the bottom of the hill. Of course, I would expect that those with DAS and wheel chairs would get priority boarding, as the primary use is to provide for better accessibility. They could even redesign the trolleys to accommodate ECVs. But we could start a whole other thread on fixing accessibility issues in the park. And yes, with some creative use of modern technology, they can ALL be fixed, including the Main Street Train Station without violating anything to do with it being a Historical Landmark.


----------



## cmwade77

OurBigTrip said:


> Yes, I can see where it isn't equal.  Of course, it also isn't equal that you can ride an attraction while waiting for two other attractions, whereas non-DAS holders can't.
> 
> There is no way to make it exactly equal, but it can't, or at least shouldn't, go back to the way the GAC was.
> 
> I still think the best way is what I proposed earlier, i.e., allow DAS holders to get wait times for many rides at the beginning of the day, with the wait time for each one added to the end of the previous one.



While I would absolutely love the one stop idea, there are a few issues presented with this:
What would they base the wait times off of? If they base it off the current wait time, I will simply show up at rope drop and have tons of attractions with no waits. If they base it off the historically average wait times throughout the day, what happens when attendance doesn't go with the historical average and is either a lot slower or a lot busier than expected? How do you ensure that people wait equal times (not shorter or longer) as everyone else?

Many of us are unable to plan more than one to two rides ahead, due to our needs. Planning the entire day in the morning would definitely not work for probably about 50% of the people who need assistance.

I am not saying the idea is not good, it just presents it's own set of challenges.

The system I proposed would not go back to the GAC system either, everyone still waits their fair turn. The wait is simply broken up, some of it is before riding while some of it is after riding a particular attraction.

As I have said, another system might be allowing you to get the return time for the next attraction at the one you are getting on. So, say you go on Jungle Cruise and next want to ride Indiana Jones, when getting in line, you would tell them so and they would write the return time for the next attraction. The only thing that would need to be worked out is how to handle the first attraction of the day. Perhaps you could go to any attraction that deals with return times to get that.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> Yes, I agree with this obsession about it always being fair. I don't ask for fair, I ask for EQUAL, which to me means equal waits, etc.



Your system doesn't provide equal waits.  It can very easily be gamed to provide shorter wait times overall.




			
				tinkerpea said:
			
		

> But there are many people who are not finding the current DAS just fine,
> That's the point!



It seems that the reason it doesn't work is because people are used to doing it the GAC way, which was obviously much easier.  Had Disney started out with this system instead of the GAC, I highly doubt that anyone would have complained about it.  But people seem to want the DAS to work just like the GAC, and that system just wasn't sustainable. 

There has to be a balance that is as fair as possible to all guests, DAS holder and non-DAS holders alike.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Robbi said:


> My eyes have been opened with all the DAS threads. There are some people who have been very ugly about those with diabilities getting any consideration at all. Some have even posted that those with kids who can't deal with wait times should stay home.



Speaking only for myself, I'm 10000% in favor of accommodations.  However, I'm not in favor of preferential access/treatment, which is what the GAC provided.  There has to be a balance that provides, as much as possible, fair treatment for ALL guests, not just DAS holders or non-DAS holders. 

The DAS, while not perfect, does bring the GAC-induced access inequalities somewhat back into balance.


----------



## Robbi

OurBigTrip said:


> Your system doesn't provide equal waits.  It can very easily be gamed to provide shorter wait times overall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that the reason it doesn't work is because people are used to doing it the GAC way, which was obviously much easier.  Had Disney started out with this system instead of the GAC, I highly doubt that anyone would have complained about it.  But people seem to want the DAS to work just like the GAC, and that system just wasn't sustainable.
> 
> There has to be a balance that is as fair as possible to all guests, DAS holder and non-DAS holders alike.



I saw a picture the other day that dealt with Disney and DAS.

Two people are allowed to watch a game behind a fence. The first sees the game fine. The second however, is not tall enough to see over the fence. Both have equal access to watch the game. Their experience though is not equal.

In the second set of pictures, the child not tall enough to see over the fence was given a crate on which to stand so watching the game was now possible for him.

That is the point that many here have tried to make. The GAC or revised DSA allow(ed) children and adults the opportunity to come as close as possible to having an equal experience.


----------



## aaarcher86

I wonder if it would be beneficial to put Disneyland in the title since the 2 are wildly different ball games.   



tinkerpea said:


> But there are many people who are not finding the current DAS just fine, That's the point!



And there are many that are and didn't like the old system... You'll have that with anything.

The inequality biggest issue I see is the WC accessible lines and how they are handled, along with the lack of kiosks.


----------



## WDWJonasGirl

cmwade77 said:


> Eliminate return times
> Instead what would happen is you would present your DAS to the first CM you see at each attraction. They would write the date,  atttraction name, arrival time, current wait time and the next valid time. The next valid time would be the current time plus the current wait time. You would then proceed to go on that ride. After that ride, you would need to wait for the next valid time to go on another ride with the pass.



Exactly!! I'm an 18 year old with autism and we already do this for Radiator Springs Racers.


----------



## mrsksomeday

lmb80129 said:


> I hesitated for a long time to post anything about our experience to these threads because of posts like this. I was simply stating what it would take to make it worthwhile for us to take our disabled teenage son to Disney. Disney and a lot of folks agree with your assessment. I would try to point out that until you try waiting elsewhere with a child with significant cognitive and physical disabilities, you may not think it is all that easy. However, having read lots of threads comparing disabled children to toddlers and other kids that have trouble waiting, there are a lot of people that agree with you. But the point is moot as DAS is here. Whether the DAS is fair and equal and does what Disney and general public expect it to do, time will tell. Everyone that enters Disney gets to judge if it is a good value and experience and if they will come back. We have decided that the DAS did not work for my family in its current form and other vacations may work better for us.


 

Please, Please write to Disney and explain your experiences. They need this feedback, they need to know how it affected your family. The only way they are going to change the system, rework things, is to hear from guests that have actually tried the DAS. 




Robbi said:


> I saw a picture the other day that dealt with Disney and DAS.
> 
> Two people are allowed to watch a game behind a fence. The first sees the game fine. The second however, is not tall enough to see over the fence. Both have equal access to watch the game. Their experience though is not equal.
> 
> In the second set of pictures, the child not tall enough to see over the fence was given a crate on which to stand so watching the game was now possible for him.
> 
> That is the point that many here have tried to make. The GAC or revised DSA allow(ed) children and adults the opportunity to come as close as possible to having an equal experience.


----------



## tinkerpea

OurBigTrip said:


> And I have to admit, I cracked up at the "non-ADA compliant hill" comment. I can only assume that you're joking, and that you don't really expect Disney to flatten out the hill.



Of course they don't expect disney to come along and now change the hill!!
Having said that though disney could make it easier on people that have to wheel themselves about the park and not expect them to come back and fourth to keep getting return times!

There are rides where you have to go quite far off track to get to the ride, there is nothing else around that ride, so you have to leave the ride area to be able to do something else while waiting " the whole point to the DAS fair or not to non DAS users" then when time is close to up you have to get yourself all the way back to the ride!

At least with the way some other parks work, you would only go to the ride when actually needing to ride, perfect for those with children/ relatives with cognitive conditions, then we wait at the end the length of the standard Q before being able to ride again!


----------



## Mom2six

mrsksomeday said:


>



I love this picture.  It is perfect and exactly what so many people do not understand.


----------



## KJohnsonDisneyFan

DisneyNutMary said:
			
		

> OP I'm not sure how this is fair to all.
> You and I arrive at Space Mountain at 12noon with a 60 min standby. You get right on, I get in line. Your next available time to ride is, what? 1pm by your example? So at 1 pm you are getting on Pooh, which has a 60 min wait, I am getting on Space Mountain. You had a leisurely walk to Pooh and an ice cream cone, I stood in line. At 115, you exit Pooh, I exit Space Mountain. You head to lunch, I head to Pooh for another 60 min wait, arriving at Pooh at 125, I will ride at 225. By 240, you will be off your third attraction as your new wait time would have blocked you out until 215. Follow what I am trying to say?
> DAS was meant to even the wait times, not just be a GAC of a different name.



I'm getting really tired of hearing the words" fair to all".  What's not fair is my daughter with multiple disabilities being treated like a second class citizen everywhere we go, in school, in our neighborhood and in public and having to fight daily battles on her behalf everyday from now on.  Hearing her tell me she wants to get married and have babies and having to choke back the tears because I know that's probably not going to ever happen for her and now having the one annual escape we had from those daily battles being taken away from us by Disney because of people like you who only care about yourself. The new system doesn't work for the truly disabled but only someone with a disability or who loves someone with a disability would get that.  I can't get over the lack of compassion I keep seeing since this has happened.  If you're not disabled or love someone who is, why are you here commenting anyway?  Don't you have anything better to do?  It was the selfish able bodied people that ruined and abused this system.  Not the disabled.


----------



## SteveMouse

I still see real inequality for folks requiring accessible vehicles. It seems like additional time credit should be issued, based perhaps on the number/ride time of riders needing the vehicle currently in the queue, as well as guidance at the ride entrance about how long the wait for an accessible ride truly is- not just the posted time for the FastPass or standby line, but maybe a third wheelchair love so that the return time would be standby line minus wheelchair wait time. Or something.


----------



## mistysue

KJohnsonDisneyFan said:
			
		

> It was the selfish able bodied people that ruined and abused this system.  Not the disabled.



It is the sheer volume of disabled people that ruin the system. Disney has become a magnet for disabled travelers. Somebody posted an article that suggested that I think it was near 1% of people in the park were GAC eligible... Most of those people are not alone. It is not sustainable to have a full percent, let alone 2 or 3 percent of the people accessing anything they want on demand. That is true whether or not you deem them disabled enough to count.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Mom2six said:


> I love this picture.  It is perfect and exactly what so many people do not understand.



Problem is,this isn't what the GAC did.  A more accurate representation would be the smallest child being lifted over the fence, and given first row baseline seats. 

Expecting to be provided the opportunity to wait outside of the lines in a place that is more comfortable and less stressful is entirely reasonable.

Expecting to not have to wait the same amount of time as other guests is not reasonable, IMO.


----------



## OurBigTrip

tinkerpea said:


> Of course they don't expect disney to come along and now change the hill!!
> Having said that though disney could make it easier on people that have to wheel themselves about the park and not expect them to come back and fourth to keep getting return times!
> 
> There are rides where you have to go quite far off track to get to the ride, there is nothing else around that ride, so you have to leave the ride area to be able to do something else while waiting " the whole point to the DAS fair or not to non DAS users" then when time is close to up you have to get yourself all the way back to the ride!
> 
> At least with the way some other parks work, you would only go to the ride when actually needing to ride, perfect for those with children/ relatives with cognitive conditions, then we wait at the end the length of the standard Q before being able to ride again!



For a place like Disney, equipping all attraction CMs with iPads would take nothing at all...perhaps the answer is to provide the iPads, and then allow guests with a DAS to get a return time FOR any ride AT any ride. 

Thinking WDW...if walking by Buzz and you want a return time for BTMRR, the CM at Buzz could give it to you.


----------



## mistysue

Duplicate, sorry


----------



## DisneyNutMary

KJohnsonDisneyFan said:


> I'm getting really tired of hearing the words" fair to all".  What's not fair is my daughter with multiple disabilities being treated like a second class citizen everywhere we go, in school, in our neighborhood and in public and having to fight daily battles on her behalf everyday from now on.  Hearing her tell me she wants to get married and have babies and having to choke back the tears because I know that's probably not going to ever happen for her and now having the one annual escape we had from those daily battles being taken away from us by Disney because of people like you who only care about yourself. The new system doesn't work for the truly disabled but only someone with a disability or who loves someone with a disability would get that.  I can't get over the lack of compassion I keep seeing since this has happened.  If you're not disabled or love someone who is, why are you here commenting anyway?  Don't you have anything better to do?  It was the selfish able bodied people that ruined and abused this system.  Not the disabled.



As you quoted my post, I must address this. 
Your "people like you comment" is rude and ignorant. I was just pointing out something from an opposite point of view. Opposite is not necessarily wrong. 
As to your accusations. We'll here goes, I grew up with a brother with severe cerebral palsy, multiple handicaps, and never achieved a mental age above five, although he is now 48. The world was a different place when I was a kid- people stared at him and commented loudly and rudely. We were often turned away from restaurants because of his complicated wheelchair. Ramps were not everywhere as they are now. We made trips to local amusement parks, as he could not fly....in fact, his body is so palsied, he doesn't really sit in his chair, he's propped there. Rides were nearly impossible for him, and we often waited hours for mom to get him ready, and set to head to the park. He would be able to enjoy one or two experiences, then out we go. Because if he was in his chair too long it became painful. I was five when I knew what words like phenobarbital and Valium meant. 
My mom lobbied to get schools to provide physical therapy for him, and even then- after suing the board of education, he still had to be bussed over an hour to school. This in a big city like New York City. He lives in a group home now, because my moms body have out from caring for home for so many years. Yes, loving and taking care of her son, with only the help of her other three kids, killed my mother. 

Yeah, I only care about myself, I know nothing about disabilities. You proved the theory about assuming. Thanks.
Maybe get to know someone's full story before you make ignorant comments. 
Life was SO FAIR to my brother, so fair that he never has and never will see WDW.


----------



## OurBigTrip

mistysue said:


> It is the sheer volume of disabled people that ruin the system. Disney has become a magnet for disabled travelers. Somebody posted an article that suggested that I think it was near 1% of people in the park were GAC eligible... Most of those people are not alone. It is not sustainable to have a full percent, let alone 2 or 3 percent of the people accessing anything they want on demand. That is true whether or not you deem them disabled enough to count.



Exactly.

And the reason that the non-disabled are interested in this is because it DOES affect us.


----------



## DisneyNutMary

Just want to add, Mods, I apologize that my prior post went off topic. I just needed to get that out. One can know both sides of an issues first hand and effectively choose to speak on one side of it. I never expected an attack due to my stand. The OP did not seem offended and debated every opposing point very well. 
Delete if you must, but please understand where I am coming from.


----------



## Vidia2

DisneyNutMary said:


> As you quoted my post, I must address this.
> Your "people like you comment" is rude and ignorant. I was just pointing out something from an opposite point of view. Opposite is not necessarily wrong.
> As to your accusations. We'll here goes, I grew up with a brother with severe cerebral palsy, multiple handicaps, and never achieved a mental age above five, although he is now 48. The world was a different place when I was a kid- people stared at him and commented loudly and rudely. We were often turned away from restaurants because of his complicated wheelchair. Ramps were not everywhere as they are now. We made trips to local amusement parks, as he could not fly....in fact, his body is so palsied, he doesn't really sit in his chair, he's propped there. Rides were nearly impossible for him, and we often waited hours for mom to get him ready, and set to head to the park. He would be able to enjoy one or two experiences, then out we go. Because if he was in his chair too long it became painful. I was five when I knew what words like phenobarbital and Valium meant.
> My mom lobbied to get schools to provide physical therapy for him, and even then- after suing the board of education, he still had to be bussed over an hour to school. This in a big city like New York City. He lives in a group home now, because my moms body have out from caring for home for so many years. Yes, loving and taking care of her son, with only the help of her other three kids, killed my mother.
> 
> Yeah, I only care about myself, I know nothing about disabilities. You proved the theory about assuming. Thanks.
> Maybe get to know someone's full story before you make ignorant comments.
> Life was SO FAIR to my brother, so fair that he never has and never will see WDW.



Have you taken your brother to Disney World?  Just wondering what your actual experience with the GAC or the DAS is.


----------



## OurBigTrip

SteveMouse said:


> I still see real inequality for folks requiring accessible vehicles. It seems like additional time credit should be issued, based perhaps on the number/ride time of riders needing the vehicle currently in the queue, as well as guidance at the ride entrance about how long the wait for an accessible ride truly is- not just the posted time for the FastPass or standby line, but maybe a third wheelchair love so that the return time would be standby line minus wheelchair wait time. Or something.



I agree, on rides where there are few WC accessible vehicles, something needs to be done to make it more equitable for those in wheelchairs/ECV.


----------



## disney david

OurBigTrip said:


> For a place like Disney, equipping all attraction CMs with iPads would take nothing at all...perhaps the answer is to provide the iPads, and then allow guests with a DAS to get a return time FOR any ride AT any ride.  Thinking WDW...if walking by Buzz and you want a return time for BTMRR, the CM at Buzz could give it to you.




Most rides at wdw now have computers for fast pass plus I am sure when they put RFID in das they could do what your saying very easily I just think they are taking their time to get fast pass plus up and running. Then will add more RFID components to other areas. Because they also have handheld scanners that could be used at the exit of the ride for you next ride. So if your at buzz when you exit you could get a return time for let say Peter Pan. Disney  has spent more money on knowing where guest are then anywhere else so now they can see how many people on in any stand by and have more accurate counts  and see how many people have fast pass plus and use that to give a more accurate return time. I just think we will see. A better system in the near  future I know people said they should of waited but they spending to much on fast pass plus and my magic and magic bands to even try to delay it to factor in das into RFID for now.  They have everything in place they have kiosk that you can make same day fast pass plus that they can use for das each attraction has a computer that they can use for both.  What they should do for now is give you one of those cards they give you when you enter a ride to see the wait time so you get a return time for a ride they give a guest one scan it then when they get to the ride they scan it once you get on as a measure to see wheatear your waiting longer then your supposed to. It be their to give them data so they can go back and see wheatear the ones given the red card spent more time then the time they was given so they could look at why.


----------



## DisneyNutMary

Vidia2 said:


> Have you taken your brother to Disney World?  Just wondering what your actual experience with the GAC or the DAS is.



Not my brother, he can't sit on a plane. And not DAS. The child of someone I travel with often has ASD and has used a GAC. Also, I've travelled with a wheelchair- knee injury, and I can truly say, the waits for accessible vehicles, or in the case of Spaceship Earth the wait even to transfer, are pretty long.


----------



## AndreaA

OurBigTrip said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And the reason that the non-disabled are interested in this is because it DOES affect us.



Affects you, meaning that you may (MAY, not WILL) have to wait a few more minutes than a disabled person.

Affects many disabled people, meaning that they WILL NOT be able to visit the  parks any longer.

Which do you think is the bigger inequity?

Life is not fair and neither are some theme park rules.  I'm not sure why some people seem to think that it's preferable to have those rules be "more fair" to them at the absolute exlusion of other people.

I think that the proposed solution would be an excellent one.  In the overall picture, it will eliminate many of the current problems while giving perhaps a minimal advantage.  Frankly I would lean in favor of giving a slight advantage over causing extra work for disabled guests or flat out disinfranchising them.  Obviously some people would rather give the advantage to the majority.  And that is what is currently happening.  People with a DAS are at a distinct DISadvantage compared to the average guest.


----------



## OurBigTrip

AndreaA said:


> Affects you, meaning that you may (MAY, not WILL) have to wait a few more minutes than a disabled person.
> 
> Affects many disabled people, meaning that they WILL NOT be able to visit the  parks any longer.
> 
> Which do you think is the bigger inequity?
> 
> Life is not fair and neither are some theme park rules.  I'm not sure why some people seem to think that it's preferable to have those rules be "more fair" to them at the absolute exlusion of other people.
> 
> I think that the proposed solution would be an excellent one.  In the overall picture, it will eliminate many of the current problems while giving perhaps a minimal advantage.  Frankly I would lean in favor of giving a slight advantage over causing extra work for disabled guests or flat out disinfranchising them.  Obviously some people would rather give the advantage to the majority.  And that is what is currently happening.  People with a DAS are at a distinct DISadvantage compared to the average guest.




This is just one of those "agree to disagree" situations.  Under the GAC, it wasn't an issue of waiting a "few minutes" more than a disabled person.  It was an issue of standing in line for an hour or more while disabled people went in with little to no wait at all, and then sometimes continued to ride, over and over again, with no wait at all.  So, not only were GAC guests not waiting for the rides like everyone else, they were causing standby lines to be even longer. 

I can see where DAS guests at DL are at a disadvantage, due to having to obtain return times at kiosks rather than at rides.  But at WDW, I really don't see it.  Guests with DAS can ride other, shorter wait rides while they wait for their return times, which is great.  Get a 60 minute return time, and go enjoy a couple of short or no wait attractions - that's much better than standing in the line for 60 minutes. 

I've not seen anyone say that disabled guests should receive no accommodations, just that all guests have to be considered, and that a system that is as equitable as possible needs to be implemented.


----------



## mistysue

AndreaA said:
			
		

> Affects you, meaning that you may (MAY, not WILL) have to wait a few more minutes than a disabled person.
> 
> Affects many disabled people, meaning that they WILL NOT be able to visit the  parks any longer.
> 
> Which do you think is the bigger inequity?
> 
> Life is not fair and neither are some theme park rules.  I'm not sure why some people seem to think that it's preferable to have those rules be "more fair" to them at the absolute exlusion of other people.
> 
> I think that the proposed solution would be an excellent one.  In the overall picture, it will eliminate many of the current problems while giving perhaps a minimal advantage.  Frankly I would lean in favor of giving a slight advantage over causing extra work for disabled guests or flat out disinfranchising them.  Obviously some people would rather give the advantage to the majority.  And that is what is currently happening.  People with a DAS are at a distinct DISadvantage compared to the average guest.


Exactly what part of being able to visit other attractions is a disadvantage over those people standing in line? Did you read that before you typed it? I know it sounds good, but can we please have a serious conversation without sweeping senseless statements? You have no idea what the story is about the people in the standby line. You dont know what their struggles are.

Of course there are people the DAS does not work for, but there are also a large number of users who just needed an alternate wait- now their needs are met and the outrage is over giving up privledge, not over unmet needs. That is not universal, we all know that, please do not twist my words.


----------



## aaarcher86

KJohnsonDisneyFan said:


> I'm getting really tired of hearing the words" fair to all".  What's not fair is my daughter with multiple disabilities being treated like a second class citizen everywhere we go, in school, in our neighborhood and in public and having to fight daily battles on her behalf everyday from now on.  Hearing her tell me she wants to get married and have babies and having to choke back the tears because I know that's probably not going to ever happen for her and now having the one annual escape we had from those daily battles being taken away from us by Disney because of people like you who only care about yourself. The new system doesn't work for the truly disabled but only someone with a disability or who loves someone with a disability would get that.  I can't get over the lack of compassion I keep seeing since this has happened.  If you're not disabled or love someone who is, why are you here commenting anyway?  Don't you have anything better to do?  It was the selfish able bodied people that ruined and abused this system.  Not the disabled.



This is not an attack thread nor a thread to argue about who has it worse in life/which disability is the hardest.   People agreeing with the new system aren't heartless or without compassion. Let's not get this thread closed. No one debates that life with a disability is incredibly difficult, but this is strictly about accommodations at a theme park not life in general.


----------



## cmwade77

AndreaA said:
			
		

> Affects you, meaning that you may (MAY, not WILL) have to wait a few more minutes than a disabled person.
> 
> Affects many disabled people, meaning that they WILL NOT be able to visit the  parks any longer.
> 
> Which do you think is the bigger inequity?
> 
> Life is not fair and neither are some theme park rules.  I'm not sure why some people seem to think that it's preferable to have those rules be "more fair" to them at the absolute exlusion of other people.
> 
> I think that the proposed solution would be an excellent one.  In the overall picture, it will eliminate many of the current problems while giving perhaps a minimal advantage.  Frankly I would lean in favor of giving a slight advantage over causing extra work for disabled guests or flat out disinfranchising them.  Obviously some people would rather give the advantage to the majority.  And that is what is currently happening.  People with a DAS are at a distinct DISadvantage compared to the average guest.


Exactly right. As I have said, there are ways to address these issues. My original suggestion is one that ensures EQUAL waits. Not shorter and not longer, I am not sure why some are having a hard time grasping that. It is dependent on accurate wait times, but so is the current system. And yes, people can do other things while waiting, but this is true with BOTH systems. And both system allow for travel time. So both the current system and what I suggested have everyone waiting their turn. 

My system simply eliminates the extra work that the current system requires. by definition extra work would mean that it's not equal to guests who don't need assistance. 

Making them wait longer than everyone else is not equal. 

Not providing return times close to closing when the standby line is still open its not equal. 

Now I have said, there are other ways to solve most of the problems, possibly all of them. So, I am not saying it's my idea or nothing, but I am saying that changes must be made in order to make the system equal.


----------



## aaarcher86

AndreaA said:


> Affects you, meaning that you may (MAY, not WILL) have to wait a few more minutes than a disabled person.  Affects many disabled people, meaning that they WILL NOT be able to visit the  parks any longer.  Which do you think is the bigger inequity?  Life is not fair and neither are some theme park rules.  I'm not sure why some people seem to think that it's preferable to have those rules be "more fair" to them at the absolute exlusion of other people.  I think that the proposed solution would be an excellent one.  In the overall picture, it will eliminate many of the current problems while giving perhaps a minimal advantage.  Frankly I would lean in favor of giving a slight advantage over causing extra work for disabled guests or flat out disinfranchising them.  Obviously some people would rather give the advantage to the majority.  And that is what is currently happening.  People with a DAS are at a distinct DISadvantage compared to the average guest.



Wheelchair users are at a distinct disadvantage and that should be remedied, no question. Guests with the ability to get into a regular seat are not. They're required to wait the same amount of time as everyone else which should be expected when going some place where everything has a que.

The waits were not a few minutes. The entire system was being bogged down by the sheer volume of users.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> Exactly right. As I have said, there are ways to address these issues. My original suggestion is one that ensures EQUAL waits. Not shorter and not longer, I am not sure why some are having a hard time grasping that. It is dependent on accurate wait times, but so is the current system. And yes, people can do other things while waiting, but this is true with BOTH systems. And both system allow for travel time. So both the current system and what I suggested have everyone waiting their turn.
> 
> My system simply eliminates the extra work that the current system requires. by definition extra work would mean that it's not equal to guests who don't need assistance.
> 
> Making them wait longer than everyone else is not equal.
> 
> Not providing return times close to closing when the standby line is still open its not equal.
> 
> Now I have said, there are other ways to solve most of the problems, possibly all of them. So, I am not saying it's my idea or nothing, but I am saying that changes must be made in order to make the system equal.



I agree that the disabled shouldn't be waiting longer, and there is no excuse for not issuing return times at the end of the night.  I'm all for making it more equal.

But the majority of complaints I've seen about the DAS (not yours, but many others) isn't because they're having to wait longer, it's because they're having to wait the same as non-disabled guests.

And the accusations that anyone that doesn't agree with their opinion is selfish and wants all of the disabled to stay out of the parks.

That attitude is every bit as offensive as saying that the disabled should just stay home.


----------



## Vidia2

aaarcher86 said:


> Wheelchair users are at a distinct disadvantage and that should be remedied, no question. Guests with the ability to get into a regular seat are not. They're required to wait the same amount of time as everyone else which should be expected when going some place where everything has a que.



I thought we weren't supposed to debate which disabilities had a bigger disadvantage or needed more accommodations.


----------



## mistysue

Vidia2 said:
			
		

> I thought we weren't supposed to debate which disabilities had a bigger disadvantage or needed more accommodations.



That post didnt do this.  Unfortunately this conversation has two parts, and giving the identical accomodation for completely different needs is not an appropriate response. Saying that does not compare needs or give priority.


----------



## OurBigTrip

mistysue said:


> That post didnt do this.  Unfortunately this conversation has two parts, and giving the identical accomodation for completely different needs is not an appropriate response. Saying that does not compare needs or give priority.



Exactly!


----------



## emeraldmom

aaarcher86 said:


> Wheelchair users are at a distinct disadvantage and that should be remedied, no question. Guests with the ability to get into a regular seat are not. They're required to wait the same amount of time as everyone else which should be expected when going some place where everything has a que.
> 
> The waits were not a few minutes. The entire system was being bogged down by the sheer volume of users.



Just to clarify here, at some attractions you have the extra wait regardless of whether or not you need a specially equipped ride vehicle.  Everyone in my party is able to ride in a standard vehicle, but sometimes we still have the extra wait.  This applies to WDW, I haven't been to DL in decades.

Some examples:
At Toy Story, if you cannot do stairs, you are sent to the accessible que.
At Jungle Cruise, you wait for the accessible boat.
At the Safari, you wait for the accessible vehicle.
At BTMR you are sent to the accessible que.  

These are just a few examples.  As of my last trip, all GAC users with the alternate entrance stamp were handled this way, regardless of if they needed a special vehicle.  The Toy Story accessible line is usually so long that sometimes we suffer through the stairs to avoid it, depends on if it's a good day for us or not.  

So, it isn't just wheelchair users that are having to deal with the extra wait.


----------



## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:
			
		

> Wheelchair users are at a distinct disadvantage and that should be remedied, no question. Guests with the ability to get into a regular seat are not. They're required to wait the same amount of time as everyone else which should be expected when going some place where everything has a que.
> 
> The waits were not a few minutes. The entire system was being bogged down by the sheer volume of users.



No guests who are able to get into a regular seat are also waiting longer. They wait the length of the standby line, plus the length of the return line, which in some cases is 30+ minutes.


----------



## cmwade77

OurBigTrip said:
			
		

> I agree that the disabled shouldn't be waiting longer, and there is no excuse for not issuing return times at the end of the night.  I'm all for making it more equal.
> 
> But the majority of complaints I've seen about the DAS (not yours, but many others) isn't because they're having to wait longer, it's because they're having to wait the same as non-disabled guests.
> 
> And the accusations that anyone that doesn't agree with their opinion is selfish and wants all of the disabled to stay out of the parks.
> 
> That attitude is every bit as offensive as saying that the disabled should just stay home.


I definitely agree there. I honestly just want a system where everything is as equal as is possible and yes, that includes wait times. I have suggested many times that something needed to be done to make things equal back under the old system. I also had suggested pictures many times.

I once saw about 5 families in front of me handing a GAC to someone else in the party and saying, I don't want to ride this, but use my GAC. This caused a backup of about 45 minutes at the attraction. Luckily there was somewhere that I was able to sit while waiting, but that's when I started mentioning about pictures every time I renewed my GAC.

So, yes the old system was broken, but the new system is also broken, just in a different way.


----------



## cmwade77

emeraldmom said:
			
		

> Just to clarify here, at some attractions you have the extra wait regardless of whether or not you need a specially equipped ride vehicle.  Everyone in my party is able to ride in a standard vehicle, but sometimes we still have the extra wait.  This applies to WDW, I haven't been to DL in decades.
> 
> Some examples:
> At Toy Story, if you cannot do stairs, you are sent to the accessible que.
> At Jungle Cruise, you wait for the accessible boat.
> At the Safari, you wait for the accessible vehicle.
> At BTMR you are sent to the accessible que.
> 
> These are just a few examples.  As of my last trip, all GAC users with the alternate entrance stamp were handled this way, regardless of if they needed a special vehicle.  The Toy Story accessible line is usually so long that sometimes we suffer through the stairs to avoid it, depends on if it's a good day for us or not.
> 
> So, it isn't just wheelchair users that are having to deal with the extra wait.



Last time we were at WDW, we were sent through the FP queue at all of these, except TSMM, but didn't do that one, because we have it out here at DL and it's identical, except the queue. 

But there were other attractions we had to wait for.

Finding Nemo
small world
Haunted Mansion (I can't do that queue after the stretching room), too many people pushing and shoving in too small of a space. 
Splash Mountain (stairs)
Great movie ride

There may have been others, but these are the ones that jump to mind.


----------



## aaarcher86

Vidia2 said:


> I thought we weren't supposed to debate which disabilities had a bigger disadvantage or needed more accommodations.



    In life...  There's a big difference in discussing daily struggles and who has it worse and DAS usage and what needs what or why.

   Wheelchair users/non users and wait times relate to the DAS, and I'm sure you have the ability to differentiate between the two.


----------



## aaarcher86

cmwade77 said:


> No guests who are able to get into a regular seat are also waiting longer. They wait the length of the standby line, plus the length of the return line, which in some cases is 30+ minutes.



I'm assuming that's a DL thing since I've never experienced a FP line that long?


----------



## Robbi

mistysue said:


> It is the sheer volume of disabled people that ruin the system. Disney has become a magnet for disabled travelers. Somebody posted an article that suggested that I think it was near 1% of people in the park were GAC eligible... Most of those people are not alone. It is not sustainable to have a full percent, let alone 2 or 3 percent of the people accessing anything they want on demand. That is true whether or not you deem them disabled enough to count.



There was 1 article written by a guy who spoke to a few CMs so now it's gospel? I can tell you from our experience and probably others can too that some CMs clearly did not like the GACs. Their attitudes were evident. I'm happy to say they were in the minority. Most cast members were very sweet. My friend went straight to Guest Services to report one CM who responded with an eyeroll after her autistic son told her hello and that he was enjoying his trip.


----------



## curemyreed

cmwade77 said:


> Universal Studios Hollywood (California)
> Sea World - San Diego (California)
> 
> These are the two that I know for sure use the system that I have suggested, others have mentioned that there are other parks that use the system I have suggested.
> 
> That being said, I recommend keeping an eye on the DAS, it will inevitably be tweaked and may end up at a point where it is doable for you.



Thanks. I wrote them down so I don't have to go searching back here someday!


----------



## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:
			
		

> I'm assuming that's a DL thing since I've never experienced a FP line that long?



No, I have had that with a GAC at WDW. I don't know about the new system there, perhaps they have fixed it. 

But at it is worse at DLR, as there are only 13 attractions that have FP. One is down for refurbishment. About 6 of them have you using another entrance besides FP or have significant delays if you can't do stairs. 

Leaving 6 rides that you return through FP at DLR. And this is assuming that FP is running on all 6 of the attractions. Most of the time, FP is only running on about 3-4 of these attractions. Which means for the vast majority of the attractions, you will not be entering through the FP queue or if you do, there will be significant delays.

By significant delays, I mean 20+ minutes. In most cases it's 45+ minutes.

Now not every attraction will have that massive of delays, but many will, which means the system is not equal at DLR and since they want it to work the same on both coasts, there needs to be a solution that does makes everything as equal as possible and works on both coasts.


----------



## cmwade77

curemyreed said:
			
		

> Thanks. I wrote them down so I don't have to go searching back here someday!



No problem, that is current as of the last time I went to each about a month ago. But just remember, as with all theme parks it's subject to change without notice, so call and ask before going if it is that much of a concern, as I would hate to get there and have something changed without knowing about it ahead of time. 

One of the positive things about this new system is Disney is being more open to how their system works and that is spilling over to other parks as well. It used to be super difficult to get any information in advance, now it's a lot easier.


----------



## curemyreed

OurBigTrip said:


> No one is taking away the use of FP's...you can still use the with the DAS.



The FP system is being replaced by FP+. This is a significantly different system as it now stands. We tested it on our last trip. The restriction to 3 FP's, all in one park, and having to use the 3 FP's on 3 different rides made for much less successful touring. We had to use DD's GAC card a lot more often than previous trips. With the original FP system we would arrive at rope drop and grab FP's as we go in order to lessen the need for GAC use. My daughter doesn't have the cognitive ability to understand most of what is said to her or about her. But I do. When we were fortunate enough to take a mother-daughter trip one year we were subjected to a woman making loud, rude comments about us as we waited in the FP line using DD's GAC. It was upsetting and brought me to tears. I didn't (don't) want to chance that again on vacation, so I worked hard to work out strategies to minimize the need for accommodations. This involves getting up to be at rope drop, no matter if it is still dark out! And using FP's so as not to add unplanned for numbers of guests to the FP line by entering it with GAC. The combination of the GAC-to-DAS system changes along with FP system changes makes for a much different vacation for us---not in a good way.


----------



## curemyreed

cmwade77 said:


> No problem, that is current as of the last time I went to each about a month ago. But just remember, as with all theme parks it's subject to change without notice, so call and ask before going if it is that much of a concern, as I would hate to get there and have something changed without knowing about it ahead of time.
> 
> One of the positive things about this new system is Disney is being more open to how their system works and that is spilling over to other parks as well. It used to be super difficult to get any information in advance, now it's a lot easier.



Yes, good reminder to confirm before we go.

I have a question for you. Or rather I wonder what your thoughts are. Surely Disney studied the various systems used at other theme parks to accommodate disabled guests. If so, they would have become aware of the Universal Studios Hollywood system that is similar to what you are proposing. I wonder why they thought the system they implemented is better? Now that I understand your/Universal's system I am convinced it would eliminate some of the problems the new DAS system has. I wish Disney could have foreseen this better.


----------



## mjh2901

I watched the new system in disneyland.  First of all the old system was so abused it was getting insane.  Because of ADA requirements Disney can not require proof.  What I see as the goal is as little cast member interaction as possible.  Disney does not want cast members saying no.  Any system where they are required to write down non ride times etc.. is setting up another cast member to tell someone no.  While we here are reasonable people who all want someone with a handicap to have a magical day, there are people heck people with no handicaps who are abusing the system now who will walk up and have a hissy fit on the poor cast member stuck telling them no.  Good customer service would say just let them in but that is how we got to this problem in the first place, unreasonable people scamming a system designed to help people.  
Disney has been striving for years to get lines that are wheelchair accessible make everyone equal.  I think the future plan is seriously to get fast pass distributed and running in a way where it will handle the wait and line issues for all guests including the handicapped and leave cast members with the job of sorting them out at the start of the line and at load/unload.  While Disneyland fast pass is far from it, those new wrist bands and cell phone apps at Disneyworld are getting pretty close.  I think we are a few years away from handicap simply being a computer notation for a guest, and lets say and yellow or orange light at fast pass check in that sends them to the proper load area.  There is a technological solution for this and we are getting there.


----------



## CPT Tripss

cmwade77 said:


> No, I have had that with a GAC at WDW. I don't know about the new system there, perhaps they have fixed it.
> 
> But at it is worse at DLR, as there are only 13 attractions that have FP. One is down for refurbishment. About 6 of them have you using another entrance besides FP or have significant delays if you can't do stairs.
> 
> Leaving 6 rides that you return through FP at DLR. And this is assuming that FP is running on all 6 of the attractions. Most of the time, FP is only running on about 3-4 of these attractions. Which means for the vast majority of the attractions, you will not be entering through the FP queue or if you do, there will be significant delays.
> 
> By significant delays, I mean 20+ minutes. In most cases it's 45+ minutes.
> 
> Now not every attraction will have that massive of delays, but many will, which means the system is not equal at DLR and since they want it to work the same on both coasts, there needs to be a solution that does makes everything as equal as possible and works on both coasts.



I'm confused by this post.  Is the cause for the delay the wait for an accessible vehicle?  If not, what is it?


----------



## cjbcam

I'm not sure as to how it can be exactly equal to everyone. People that don't have a disability should not have to wait while people with disabilities get to just go through fp all the time adding wait time to there ride. Yet people with disabilities shouldn't have to wait longer than non disabled people either. With this new system it seems like they are trying to even out the times. Each person having to wait equal amounts of time for each ride, seems fair. I think it may take a little time to tweak the system. I also think people aren't happy because they are getting something taken from them ( fp access all the time). They are trying to make it equal access and I think that's what the new system does. I know equal access does not equal equal quality. I'm not sure they could ever do equal quality. For example I have four kids one has to nap therefor we leave the park for naps and come back missing rides that other people that didnt have to leave got to ride, how and why would disney have to make that up to me?


----------



## Vidia2

aaarcher86 said:


> In life...  There's a big difference in discussing daily struggles and who has it worse and DAS usage and what needs what or why.  Wheelchair users/non users and wait times relate to the DAS, and I'm sure you have the ability to differentiate between the two.



Your statement was clearly referring to the DAS and who you believe needs more accommodations.  This is your opinion, not difficult to differentiate from fact.

This thread has taken the usual course.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cjbcam said:


> I'm not sure as to how it can be exactly equal to everyone. People that don't have a disability should not have to wait while people with disabilities get to just go through fp all the time adding wait time to there ride. Yet people with disabilities shouldn't have to wait longer than non disabled people either. With this new system it seems like they are trying to even out the times. Each person having to wait equal amounts of time for each ride, seems fair. I think it may take a little time to tweak the system. I also think people aren't happy because they are getting something taken from them ( fp access all the time). They are trying to make it equal access and I think that's what the new system does. I know equal access does not equal equal quality. I'm not sure they could ever do equal quality. For example I have four kids one has to nap therefor we leave the park for naps and come back missing rides that other people that didnt have to leave got to ride, how and why would disney have to make that up to me?



Exactly!  It will never be exactly equal, but there needs to be a balance, and I believe that Disney is trying to do with the DAS.  There was no balance before, and Disney was right to try to remedy that.


----------



## Gracie09

cmwade77 said:


> Exactly my point, since I have a DAS, if I want to go on Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin (when FP is not available) and Gadget's Go Coaster. I have to go to a kiosk (nearest one is near the Teacups in Fantasyland) to get a return time for one. Then I have to leave ToonTown, walk down a non-ADA compliant hill, go back to over by the teacups to get a return time for the other. Then walk back up the non-ADA compliant hill and go on the other attraction.  Imagine doing things like that ALL day long. Can you see why we are saying the system is not EQUAL?


Or you can get a return time for one. Walk to the ride and wait near it. Ride. Go to the second ride get a return time. Wait near the ride and ride again. Like if a person without a das wanted to ride two rides. They go to one, wait on the line, go to the next and wait on the line.


----------



## Schmeck

going/again said:


> Wouldn't that mean on every ride there should be an equal number of wheelchair accessible vehicles  as none accessible. How many rides have more than 1?



That would assume that 50% of the population is in wheelchairs?


----------



## Schmeck

curemyreed said:


> The FP system is being replaced by FP+. This is a significantly different system as it now stands. We tested it on our last trip. The restriction to 3 FP's, all in one park, and having to use the 3 FP's on 3 different rides made for much less successful touring. We had to use DD's GAC card a lot more often than previous trips. With the original FP system we would arrive at rope drop and grab FP's as we go in order to lessen the need for GAC use. My daughter doesn't have the cognitive ability to understand most of what is said to her or about her. But I do. When we were fortunate enough to take a mother-daughter trip one year we were subjected to a woman making loud, rude comments about us as we waited in the FP line using DD's GAC. It was upsetting and brought me to tears. I didn't (don't) want to chance that again on vacation, so I worked hard to work out strategies to minimize the need for accommodations. This involves getting up to be at rope drop, no matter if it is still dark out! And using FP's so as not to add unplanned for numbers of guests to the FP line by entering it with GAC. The combination of the GAC-to-DAS system changes along with FP system changes makes for a much different vacation for us---not in a good way.



If you use FP+, you will have 3 attractions already lined up, and the DAS will get you a 4th one. I think that would be much easier than your description of your past trip? If you choose not to use a DAS, that is your decision, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say about how it will be harder for you? Wouldn't it be your choice that makes it harder?

About getting up for rope drop - we all have to get up early for that to grab that all important first FP, so I'm not sure what the issue here is either?


----------



## AndreaA

Gracie09 said:


> Or you can get a return time for one. Walk to the ride and wait near it. Ride. Go to the second ride get a return time. Wait near the ride and ride again. Like if a person without a das wanted to ride two rides. They go to one, wait on the line, go to the next and wait on the line.



Try doing that with someone who is cognitively disabled (and no, I don't just mean autistic) and see how well it works to hang around outside the ride they are insisting on going on.

And let's not bother going down the "they should learn how to wait" road.  Some people will never "learn to wait".  Some people will never live outside their parents' home or a qualified institution/home.  So saying they need to learn to make it in the real world is pointless.



mistysue said:


> Exactly what part of being able to visit other attractions is a disadvantage over those people standing in line? Did you read that before you typed it? I know it sounds good, but can we please have a serious conversation without sweeping senseless statements?



How is it not a disadvantage to have to go to a ride and then walk away and then go back later and still have to wait in a line?  What attraction is there to do at BTMRR that doesn't require an exhausting walk up and down a rather steep hill?

It just seems to me that the argument with the solution proposed in this thread is that the disabled people don't have to wait at the same time as average guest.  They DO have to wait, just at a different time, and apparently some people think that is somehow giving them something "extra".  With the current DAS they would be able to visit other attractions/eat/bathroom, so that's not an advantage of the proposed system, it's just that they can ride when the urge/need strikes and then do their waiting by perhaps dawdling on the way to their next ride or otherwise distracting their loved one before they even get near the next ride. To me it sounds like some perverse envy.  You don't get "instant gratification" so neither should anyone else, even if their mental state is such that they could be in physical or mental distress otherwise.  I just don't get it.

People trying to make timelines showing that disabled people will end up waiting x number of minutes fewer or get one extra ride in are grasping at straws, in my opinion.  Aside from the fact that I have yet to see one that I think is accurate, again, you're saying that you would rather have those disabled people waiting longer, having significantly more distressful days and missing out on a ride (as currently happens at the end of the day) in order to keep things "fair" in your mind.  And if people are really complaining that hr+ waits were caused by GAC users, do you think that's going to change now?  Those people will still be coming through the FP line.  They will still be holding up the standby line.  Frankly, if you're in an hr+ line and it's not Enchanted Tales or TSMM, then you're touring wrong, because even in July you can visit the parks and not have waits like that as long as you do it right.

As for the line of thinking that they should use FP/FP+, well, FP will be going away and there have been numerous posts about how making such advance plans will not work with people whose moods/desires can change on a dime.  And try reading a few FP+ threads to see how difficult it is to get a same day FP+ for anything.


----------



## lovethattink

aaarcher86 said:


> I'm assuming that's a DL thing since I've never experienced a FP line that long?



No, at WDW we experienced a 30+ minute wait for Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh of all places recently. It was in August, there were very few people with FP in the line, the majority of parties had GACs in their hand. My son's air conditioners buy him about 15 minutes out doors, before humidity kicks in and it blows out warm air. By the time we got to the air conditioned part of the line he had already started overheating. The only other time we had a wait like this was near Christmas. So I don't believe it's typical, but can happen.

Also there's been many times waiting for Buzz that was over 30 minutes, but had we not had to wait additional time in the w/c queue it would have been less. (And this wasn't wait for an accessible car, this was to transfer from w/c and walk to a car.)

Spaceship Earth's alternate entrance is another place that's hit or miss. They send two w/c parties in at a time. If you are "lucky" enough not to have any other w/c parties waiting you could go right in, but if there are some ahead of you it could be a long wait. Many times waited more than 30 minutes.

Peter Pan is another one. There is a 2 w/c rule due to limitations of space for parking them. The wait all depended on how many w/c parties were ahead of us at to how long we waited.

The Little mermaid Voyage Under the Sea is another one that send a w/c party to an additional waiting area at the exit. All depends on how many w/c parties are ahead of you as to how much longer your wait will be. The longest we've waited there was an additional 20 minutes. Again this was to leave the w/c there at the exit area and walk to a car, not wait for an accessible car. The party waiting for an accessible one would probably have an even longer wait.


----------



## mistysue

AndreaA said:
			
		

> Try doing that with someone who is cognitively disabled (and no, I don't just mean autistic) and see how well it works to hang around outside the ride they are insisting on going on.
> 
> And let's not bother going down the "they should learn how to wait" road.  Some people will never "learn to wait".  Some people will never live outside their parents' home or a qualified institution/home.  So saying they need to learn to make it in the real world is pointless.
> 
> How is it not a disadvantage to have to go to a ride and then walk away and then go back later and still have to wait in a line?  What attraction is there to do at BTMRR that doesn't require an exhausting walk up and down a rather steep hill?
> 
> It just seems to me that the argument with the solution proposed in this thread is that the disabled people don't have to wait at the same time as average guest.  They DO have to wait, just at a different time, and apparently some people think that is somehow giving them something "extra".  With the current DAS they would be able to visit other attractions/eat/bathroom, so that's not an advantage of the proposed system, it's just that they can ride when the urge/need strikes and then do their waiting by perhaps dawdling on the way to their next ride or otherwise distracting their loved one before they even get near the next ride. To me it sounds like some perverse envy.  You don't get "instant gratification" so neither should anyone else, even if their mental state is such that they could be in physical or mental distress otherwise.  I just don't get it.
> 
> People trying to make timelines showing that disabled people will end up waiting x number of minutes fewer or get one extra ride in are grasping at straws, in my opinion.  Aside from the fact that I have yet to see one that I think is accurate, again, you're saying that you would rather have those disabled people waiting longer, having significantly more distressful days and missing out on a ride (as currently happens at the end of the day) in order to keep things "fair" in your mind.  And if people are really complaining that hr+ waits were caused by GAC users, do you think that's going to change now?



People who were abusing the system are significantly less likely to do so without immediate gratification. The same is also true about cases where a cognitive disability has somebody more on the boarder of needing assistance. If it is not so bright and shiney, some of those families will choose to spend their energy planning more intelligently, rather than walking into HS at noon and expecting to immediately ride TSM, RNR and TOT within a couple hours.

Then there are situations, as you are saying, where a person can not be planned out, can not "just learn to wait"- this is the exception to the norm, even among those who need assistance. Just as it is not reasonable for you to not get an extra hand, it is not fair that anybody can walk in to GS, say they cant wait (simplifying here) and get all of the accomodations needed by an individual with a much more complex situation.
By arguing that everybody should have immediate access, it really does downplay your scenario and create complications for yourself, as it is so easily open to abuse. The time scenarios are not grasping at straws, they are pointing out a clear and obvious advantage not available to all. In some cases it is a needed advantage for other reasons, but that is not universally true.


----------



## cmwade77

CPT Tripss said:
			
		

> I'm confused by this post.  Is the cause for the delay the wait for an accessible vehicle?  If not, what is it?



Yes and no, the cause of the delay at many attractions is that they are only allowed to have x number of people who can't handle stairs at a time. So, if you can't handle stairs, you are put in the same line as those waiting for the accessible vehicles at many attractions. What this really means is you also have to wait for the accessible vehicle to come around how many times it takes to clear out the line in front of you. Even if you don't need the accessible vehicle yourself.


----------



## cmwade77

Schmeck said:
			
		

> About getting up for rope drop - we all have to get up early for that to grab that all important first FP, so I'm not sure what the issue here is either?



Some have needs that make this impossible, I think that may be what the issue there is.


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:
			
		

> People who were abusing the system are significantly less likely to do so without immediate gratification. The same is also true about cases where a cognitive disability has somebody more on the boarder of needing assistance. If it is not so bright and shiney, some of those families will choose to spend their energy planning more intelligently, rather than walking into HS at noon and expecting to immediately ride TSM, RNR and TOT within a couple hours.
> 
> Then there are situations, as you are saying, where a person can not be planned out, can not "just learn to wait"- this is the exception to the norm, even among those who need assistance. Just as it is not reasonable for you to not get an extra hand, it is not fair that anybody can walk in to GS, say they cant wait (simplifying here) and get all of the accomodations needed by an individual with a much more complex situation.
> By arguing that everybody should have immediate access, it really does downplay your scenario and create complications for yourself, as it is so easily open to abuse. The time scenarios are not grasping at straws, they are pointing out a clear and obvious advantage not available to all. In some cases it is a needed advantage for other reasons, but that is not universally true.


The system I suggested in my OP does limit the instant gratification to the first attraction of the day only. I did state that this could be an issue that may need to be sorted. But also pointed out that the chances are that at least on the day you go to get the DAS, the process of getting one is likely to take about the same amount of time as the first rides standby line would. 

Since you would still be waiting after each ride, there is no true immediate access.


----------



## cmwade77

Gracie09 said:
			
		

> Or you can get a return time for one. Walk to the ride and wait near it. Ride. Go to the second ride get a return time. Wait near the ride and ride again. Like if a person without a das wanted to ride two rides. They go to one, wait on the line, go to the next and wait on the line.



No, because they both have physical barriers that require me to use the alternate entrances, which means I cannot wait in the standby lines on either, no matter how short the wait is.


----------



## aaarcher86

Vidia2 said:


> Your statement was clearly referring to the DAS and who you believe needs more accommodations.  This is your opinion, not difficult to differentiate from fact.  This thread has taken the usual course.



What are you talking about? 

The discussion was about WC users have an incredibly long wait for an accessible vehicle, which yes, is not equitable.  The post I quoted that you're being smart about was going through the daily struggles of their child in a regular life setting and why it's "not fair." Threads have been closed for the debate of who has a worse disability and why... That's not at all what I was referring to. I'm not comparing disabilities, but access via the DAS. The post I quoted was also riddled with personal insults, again, I didn't do that either. 

You really don't see the difference in the two? That's your problem. It's not rocket science.


----------



## lovethattink

Schmeck said:


> About getting up for rope drop - we all have to get up early for that to grab that all important first FP, so I'm not sure what the issue here is either?





cmwade77 said:


> Some have needs that make this impossible, I think that may be what the issue there is.



My son has seizures in his sleep nightly. His mornings are slow starting and at his pace. He's homeschooled because of this. 

Presently, he can't ride many of the attractions. But if he could, DAS would be his only shot of getting on one where FP are gone early.


----------



## Southerndisney

cmwade77, thank you for posting this thread and taking the time to respond to so many posts. It is funny that the people that have doubts about your proposal are mostly responsible for keeping your thread towards the top of this forum, which encourages more people to read your proposal. I do not know if your proposal is something that Disney would consider, but I do appreciate people that look for solutions to problems. I believe Disney will change the DAS and it is important that people that have experienced problems with the current DAS write or speak to Guest Relations so that issues may be resolved.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:
			
		

> The system I suggested in my OP does limit the instant gratification to the first attraction of the day only...
> 
> Since you would still be waiting after each ride, there is no true immediate access.



I dont agree that you still wait. The reality is that (lets pretend you dont need to wait for a vehicle, that changes the whole thing) you arrive at the ride-they write down a 30 minute wait. You ride, walk to your next ride and either walk slowly or maybe wait 5 mins when you get there. At this point, you enter the line for ride #2. As you are entering the line, the person who went through standby on the first ride is just BOARDING  ride #1. By the time they ride and travel to ride #2, they are about 15 minutes behind you. You are boarding ride #2 when they are just getting in line. You "wait" 5 minutes, they waited 30 that is not equal. That is not fair, it is nothing but advantage.
By starting your time when you enter the fp line the fp time counts toward your wait, which it should, but you also get to include the time you are on the ride, the time you unboard and the time you travel to the next ride. That is neither equal nor fair. I cant get to TSM and say "no, but it took me 20 minutes to walk here, so I get to skip the first 20 minutes of line". They would laugh at me.

Its not that I dont get that people have complications. We have been cut off from shows because we had to park a stroller and get a child out (and suddenly you might care if you know he has a genetic abnormality and severe hypotonia), we have missed fastpasses because of waiting for a chef due to allergies, we have sat outside the park for an hour because DD didnt believe it was Disney- everybody, whether from a disability or not is going to have hurdles to overcome on a trip. So give some pixie dust but it doesnt mean a large group should skip EVERY line. The proposed wait after would only be fair if they added to the line wait, something like "60 minute wait +7 minute ride + 10 minute walk = 77 minute return. But then it gets too complex and people would bicker about walking speeds.


----------



## aaarcher86

Someone posted in the WDW thread that TSM had a 120 minute wait with 10 min to park closing and they we're let right into the FP line.


----------



## AndreaA

mistysue said:


> I dont agree that you still wait. The reality is that (lets pretend you dont need to wait for a vehicle, that changes the whole thing) you arrive at the ride-they write down a 30 minute wait. You ride, walk to your next ride and either walk slowly or maybe wait 5 mins when you get there. At this point, you enter the line for ride #2. As you are entering the line, the person who went through standby on the first ride is just BOARDING  ride #1. By the time they ride and travel to ride #2, they are about 15 minutes behind you. You are boarding ride #2 when they are just getting in line. You "wait" 5 minutes, they waited 30 that is not equal. That is not fair, it is nothing but advantage.



But people with a DAS are ALREADY being allowed to enter immediately if the wait is less than 10-15min (and that might easily be changed to 30 to match Universal) and are already having 10min subtracted from the wait time.  So chances are that the perceived time advantage of DAS vs the proposed system would be pretty much equal.  I say perceived because let's face it, the average DAS user is probably going to be stuck in a longer than 10min FP line at least a few times a day (heck, we just went in September - the SLOW time - and between having to talk to multiple CMs in the line, and waiting for those in front of us, including wheelchair users, we rarely waited less than 10min), and, particularly at DL, they will be forced to do a lot more walking which could easily put them at their DAS attraction after their return time.  The main difference would be that it would keep disabled people from having to go in circles or having the party separate while picking up DAS times (particularly in DL) and dramatically help those who are cognitively disabled and can't understand why they can't ride right then.

And I've said this in other threads on the matter, but I will say it again for the record.  The current DAS system would not impact me or my family.  Our biggest thing is that our son currently cannot handle the interactive queues at many rides.  It's too much for him, so we have to use an alternate entrance even if the wait time is only 10 minutes long.  I said in another thread that he completely freaked out at the TSMM queue, and that is when I acquired a GAC for him.  We go at slow times when waits are often 15 or less, so with the current system we would be ushered right in and for those rides that did have longer waits, my son would be easily distracted and we could wait elsewhere.  Not everyone is so lucky.


----------



## mistysue

AndreaA said:


> But people with a DAS are ALREADY being allowed to enter immediately if the wait is less than 10-15min (and that might easily be changed to 30 to match Universal) and are already having 10min subtracted from the wait time.  So chances are that the perceived time advantage of DAS vs the proposed system would be pretty much equal.  I say perceived because let's face it, the average DAS user is probably going to be stuck in a longer than 10min FP line at least a few times a day (heck, we just went in September - the SLOW time - and between having to talk to multiple CMs in the line, and waiting for those in front of us, including wheelchair users, we rarely waited less than 10min), and, particularly at DL, they will be forced to do a lot more walking which could easily put them at their DAS attraction after their return time.  The main difference would be that it would keep disabled people from having to go in circles or having the party separate while picking up DAS times (particularly in DL) and dramatically help those who are cognitively disabled and can't understand why they can't ride right then.



People who abuse (or just overuse) the system do so for the headliners. There isn't a huge rush on DAS cards to get into Haunted mansion or living with the land in Sept.  That "perceived advantage" is where abuse comes from- abuse both by people who don't need any assistance and people who need some assistance taking everything they can argue for. Seeing that people randomly walk into the Soarin' FP line and then can immediately go on with the short wait rides,  meanwhile the person looking for a way to get out of the 120 minute line completely wastes 2 hours of their day before boarding and moving on... it would be infuriating to anybody. Either way, it's not fair to the person who has to stand in line, but they at least have this perception of "ok, I don't get on the ride immediately, but neither do they." It cuts back on the unfair advantage to those who don't NEED immediate access. It is not for anybody here to decide, but there are certainly people who qualify for a DAS and could get by without it, and then there are people who can not. In time, I'm sure Disney will figure out a way to meet everybody's needs. I think unfortunately a stage in that is getting people who CAN take more responsibility for their own touring to do so.  GAC became a crutch for some people, endangering the effectiveness of the program for those who could not function without it. The proposed system is so close to the GAC that for those who are not completely dependent on it, it is essentially the same.


----------



## Paula Sedley-Burke

I am from the UK and I don't have an issue showing medical evidence to get my DAS and also to raise the credibility of the system. Is it the American law that makes this difficult? We can do this in the UK at our theme parks. That way no matter what system is implemented there is less resentment because other folks know those with a DAS card are genuine. You really can't judge by sight somebodies disability. Even when you have one yourself I know not of other folks plight like I have no idea of how hard it must be with a child with autism.


----------



## aaarcher86

Paula Sedley-Burke said:


> I am from the UK and I don't have an issue showing medical evidence to get my DAS and also to raise the credibility of the system. Is it the American law that makes this difficult? We can do this in the UK at our theme parks. That way no matter what system is implemented there is less resentment because other folks know those with a DAS card are genuine. You really can't judge by sight somebodies disability. Even when you have one yourself I know not of other folks plight like I have no idea of how hard it must be with a child with autism.



Yes, it's the American system. Disney can not ask for or require medical proof. I think lots of people would happily supply it if that were an option. I think Disney refuses proof when offered to avoid word spreading that a doctors note helped them receive accommodations and getting into a situation that looks like, or can be interpreted that they require that. 

I could easily see someone not providing documentation (because they don't have to) and being denied a DAS while overhearing the next person showing proof and receiving the DAS and then making a giant stink about it.


----------



## Paula Sedley-Burke

aaarcher86 said:


> Yes, it's the American system. Disney can not ask for or require medical proof. I think lots of people would happily supply it if that were an option. I think Disney refuses proof when offered to avoid word spreading that a doctors note helped them receive accommodations and getting into a situation that looks like, or can be interpreted that they require that.  I could easily see someone not providing documentation (because they don't have to) and being denied a DAS while overhearing the next person showing proof and receiving the DAS and then making a giant stink about it.


i see thank you. Yes I think if it's the American system then Disney is right to just not look at anyone's for the exact reasons you state. It's a shame though because if you could provide proof it would also open a door to apply for a DAS card ahead of time. That would be real nice. Or apply one to the MagicBand if you have one.


----------



## Robbi

Paula Sedley-Burke said:


> i see thank you. Yes I think if it's the American system then Disney is right to just not look at anyone's for the exact reasons you state. It's a shame though because if you could provide proof it would also open a door to apply for a DAS card ahead of time. That would be real nice. Or apply one to the MagicBand if you have one.



You're right, it would make it easier. It seems silly to me that people will walk around the parks with cards that have their pictures that identify them as people with a disability yet we cannot show medical proof even if we want to do that.


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:


> People who abuse (or just overuse) the system do so for the headliners. There isn't a huge rush on DAS cards to get into Haunted mansion or living with the land in Sept.  That "perceived advantage" is where abuse comes from- abuse both by people who don't need any assistance and people who need some assistance taking everything they can argue for. Seeing that people randomly walk into the Soarin' FP line and then can immediately go on with the short wait rides,  meanwhile the person looking for a way to get out of the 120 minute line completely wastes 2 hours of their day before boarding and moving on... it would be infuriating to anybody. Either way, it's not fair to the person who has to stand in line, but they at least have this perception of "ok, I don't get on the ride immediately, but neither do they." It cuts back on the unfair advantage to those who don't NEED immediate access. It is not for anybody here to decide, but there are certainly people who qualify for a DAS and could get by without it, and then there are people who can not. In time, I'm sure Disney will figure out a way to meet everybody's needs. I think unfortunately a stage in that is getting people who CAN take more responsibility for their own touring to do so.  GAC became a crutch for some people, endangering the effectiveness of the program for those who could not function without it. The proposed system is so close to the GAC that for those who are not completely dependent on it, it is essentially the same.



No, it definitely is not anywhere close to the same as the GAC was, you still wait your turn. Remember right now at DLR, you can get a return time and take your time getting to the attraction, same as you are describing.


But perhaps here is another approach, that would solve most of the issues (still will have an issue with return times close to closing though) and may close the perceived potential for abuse (we can agree to disagree that the originally proposed system would lead to more abuse):
I would first get a return time by going to any attraction and letting them know what ride I want to wait for.

Then when I show up at that ride, they would ask me what ride I would like to go on next. I tell them, they look up the wait time, add in the length of the actual ride time, as that is time that I am not waiting and put the return time for the next attraction.

Yes, there are some attractions where they wouldn't be able to do this, but those attractions are usually grouped together, such as Fantasyland attractions at DL and they could leave a kiosk for returning to these attractions.

This would still factor in the time that I waited for the attraction, reduce the amount of extra traveling and eliminate the need to go to the attraction and come back later at WDW. Like I said it does still leave the issue of return times close to closing and that does need to be worked out, but perhaps this system would seem to reduce the potential for abuse.


----------



## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:


> Someone posted in the WDW thread that TSM had a 120 minute wait with 10 min to park closing and they we're let right into the FP line.


I see, that would work to solve the near closing time issues, if they let us know what the official policy is when we get the DAS and if that happened at DLR as well.


----------



## cmwade77

mistysue said:


> I dont agree that you still wait. The reality is that (lets pretend you dont need to wait for a vehicle, that changes the whole thing) you arrive at the ride-they write down a 30 minute wait. You ride, walk to your next ride and either walk slowly or maybe wait 5 mins when you get there. At this point, you enter the line for ride #2. As you are entering the line, the person who went through standby on the first ride is just BOARDING  ride #1. By the time they ride and travel to ride #2, they are about 15 minutes behind you. You are boarding ride #2 when they are just getting in line. You "wait" 5 minutes, they waited 30 that is not equal. That is not fair, it is nothing but advantage.
> By starting your time when you enter the fp line the fp time counts toward your wait, which it should, but you also get to include the time you are on the ride, the time you unboard and the time you travel to the next ride. That is neither equal nor fair. I cant get to TSM and say "no, but it took me 20 minutes to walk here, so I get to skip the first 20 minutes of line". They would laugh at me.
> 
> Its not that I dont get that people have complications. We have been cut off from shows because we had to park a stroller and get a child out (and suddenly you might care if you know he has a genetic abnormality and severe hypotonia), we have missed fastpasses because of waiting for a chef due to allergies, we have sat outside the park for an hour because DD didnt believe it was Disney- everybody, whether from a disability or not is going to have hurdles to overcome on a trip. So give some pixie dust but it doesnt mean a large group should skip EVERY line. The proposed wait after would only be fair if they added to the line wait, something like "60 minute wait +7 minute ride + 10 minute walk = 77 minute return. But then it gets too complex and people would bicker about walking speeds.



But HOW is allowing for traveling time any different than the current system?

The difference between the current system and what I suggested is with the current system we wait before the ride, with the new system, we wait after. 

With the current system we can still take our time and go on other attractions with shorter waits, go to shows, use FP, etc. between going to a kiosk and returning to the attraction. So, I don't see any difference from this standpoint, in fact Disney even goes a step further and subtracts 10 minutes for travel time.

The difference is, with the present system, I have to wait for my return time, then when I get to the attraction, wait again in line. And yes, sometimes that second wait can be as long or longer than the first wait. With my originally proposed system, the waits are equalized, so that the total spent "waiting" is exactly the same as anyone else. It's just a different type of waiting.

The other difference is I may have to do backtracking, depending on the attractions that I wish to do.

Another issue is if I am physically unable to do an attraction when my return time comes around, under the present system I loose the time that I waited. Under my system, you simply wouldn't get in line for that attraction.


----------



## mistysue

cmwade77 said:
			
		

> No, it definitely is not anywhere close to the same as the GAC was, you still wait your turn. Remember right now at DLR, you can get a return time and take your time getting to the attraction, same as you are describing.
> 
> But perhaps here is another approach, that would solve most of the issues (still will have an issue with return times close to closing though) and may close the perceived potential for abuse (we can agree to disagree that the originally proposed system would lead to more abuse):
> I would first get a return time by going to any attraction and letting them know what ride I want to wait for.
> 
> Then when I show up at that ride, they would ask me what ride I would like to go on next. I tell them, they look up the wait time, add in the length of the actual ride time, as that is time that I am not waiting and put the return time for the next attraction.
> 
> Yes, there are some attractions where they wouldn't be able to do this, but those attractions are usually grouped together, such as Fantasyland attractions at DL and they could leave a kiosk for returning to these attractions.
> 
> This would still factor in the time that I waited for the attraction, reduce the amount of extra traveling and eliminate the need to go to the attraction and come back later at WDW. Like I said it does still leave the issue of return times close to closing and that does need to be worked out, but perhaps this system would seem to reduce the potential for abuse.



I think that would work well.

Just so you know, my resistance is not about some strange urge to make it more difficult for anybody. I just want the system to deter people who take advantage that dont need so that it can truly work when it needs to.  My daughter cant wait well, but one day doesnt ruin everything, we will return and we are able to distract her with things effectively- showing her the fp+ schedule, giving her the wait time app, etc. Not a choice for everybody but I prefer to leave the need based assistance for those without choices. Other people take every option even if it is want more than need, and that is their decision.  "Gaming the system" isnt so fun when the payout doesnt happen upfront.


----------



## going/again

SteveMouse said:


> I still see real inequality for folks requiring accessible vehicles. It seems like additional time credit should be issued, based perhaps on the number/ride time of riders needing the vehicle currently in the queue, as well as guidance at the ride entrance about how long the wait for an accessible ride truly is- not just the posted time for the FastPass or standby line, but maybe a third wheelchair love so that the return time would be standby line minus wheelchair wait time. Or something.



Its easier than that make every car, boat, log flume, or whatever they use on any given ride accessible, now that's fair, After all that's what 95% on these forums claim to want.


----------



## going/again

mistysue said:


> It is the sheer volume of disabled people that ruin the system. Disney has become a magnet for disabled travelers. Somebody posted an article that suggested that I think it was near 1% of people in the park were GAC eligible... Most of those people are not alone. It is not sustainable to have a full percent, let alone 2 or 3 percent of the people accessing anything they want on demand. That is true whether or not you deem them disabled enough to count.



Sorry would you like them to stay at home,  I'd stand in line all day if it meant disabled kids get to ride, people should  look at some of these kids faces when they come of the rides the smiles would light up a dark room.


----------



## going/again

OurBigTrip said:


> This is just one of those "agree to disagree" situations.  Under the GAC, it wasn't an issue of waiting a "few minutes" more than a disabled person.  It was an issue of standing in line for an hour or more while disabled people went in with little to no wait at all,



Clearly you have not been in the wheelchair line at AK safari.


----------



## aaarcher86

going/again said:


> Sorry would you like them to stay at home,  I'd stand in line all day if it meant disabled kids get to ride, people should  look at some of these kids faces when they come of the rides the smiles would light up a dark room.



This is something that bothers me. Every child that walk through those gates deserves a magical experience. Every child. I'm absolutely all for accommodations that work but an able child doesn't deserve to 'wait in line all day' because they haven't been dealt the same hand of cards as a disabled child. They are just as deserving of a magical time.

Lots of parents feel that those that don't have a disabled child feel that their kids are inferior, but parents of disabled children do the same thing just like this line of thinking. I can not imagine a normal human being being unwilling to wait a few extra minutes for a disabled child... But it's not one. It's not two. It is thousands along with their families. 

And while it's a nice thought, I think you'd actually be pretty agitated to pay $1000 per day only to wait in line. A line has to be drawn somewhere and something has to be done that gives everyone the vacation they deserve and pay for.


----------



## going/again

Schmeck said:


> That would assume that 50% of the population is in wheelchairs?



Not confusing really everyone wants fair or so they say, so why does a disabled person have to wait for one car when an able person can pick from all the rest.
the lack of compassion on this subject is astounding.


----------



## aaarcher86

going/again said:


> Not confusing really everyone wants fair or so they say, so why does a disabled person have to wait for one car when an able person can pick from all the rest. the lack of compassion on this subject is astounding.



There are only a certain amount of disabled people allowed on a ride at a time for safety reasons which is why they have fewer WC accessible vehicles. 

Not every handicap person has to wait for an accessible vehicle.


----------



## Sunnywho

cmwade77 said:


> The system I suggested in my OP does limit the instant gratification to the first attraction of the day only. I did state that this could be an issue that may need to be sorted.


There have been times when just getting to the parks has worn me out. Especially Magic Kingdom with the parking, the tram, the monorail before you even get in. For some disabilities, that could be considered the wait prior to the first ride.


----------



## Talking Hands

mistysue said:


> I think that would work well.
> 
> Just so you know, my resistance is not about some strange urge to make it more difficult for anybody. I just want the system to deter people who take advantage that dont need so that it can truly work when it needs to. My daughter cant wait well, but one day doesnt ruin everything, we will return and we are able to distract her with things effectively- showing her the fp+ schedule, giving her the wait time app, etc. Not a choice for everybody but I prefer to leave the need based assistance for those without choices. Other people take every option even if it is want more than need, and that is their decision. "Gaming the system" isnt so fun when the payout doesnt happen upfront.


Unfortunately there will always be people who try to take advantage of the system.  That is human nature.


----------



## Talking Hands

going/again said:


> Not confusing really everyone wants fair or so they say, so why does a disabled person have to wait for one car when an able person can pick from all the rest.
> the lack of compassion on this subject is astounding.


The same reason deaf people only have interpreted shows on certain days in certain parks.  and only one time on that specific day.


----------



## Sunnywho

cmwade77 said:


> Another issue is if I am physically unable to do an attraction when my return time comes around, under the present system I loose the time that I waited. Under my system, you simply wouldn't get in line for that attraction.


This is a big point. I read a trip report of a mom leaving the park with a DAS return time, a wheelchair return time, and a fastpass in hand, and a single ride ridden. Your plan would have greatly improved guest experience.


----------



## mjh2901

It's not just the number of truly disabled its the sheer number of abusers, because disney cannot ask for proof to many scumbags are simply lying and getting the pass.  Wasn't there some socal travel agency online setting people up with everything required to use GAC and they where not catering to the disabled.  There are not to many disabled people in the park.  A lot of disabilities prevent that person from even going on some of the e-ticket rides.

It would be nice if they had an area where the did the GAC stuff that had a couple dummy ride vehicles so the parties can practice getting their person in and out of ride vehicles.  Because cast members cannot touch or assist people with disabilities are being loaded by their party and a little practice would speed everything up.  Whats nice are some of the newer rides (RSR and TSM) have a separate load track so normal loading can keep on running while a vehicles sits in an offshoot getting loaded.


----------



## mistysue

going/again said:


> Sorry would you like them to stay at home,  I'd stand in line all day if it meant disabled kids get to ride, people should  look at some of these kids faces when they come of the rides the smiles would light up a dark room.



Nobody said people should stay home. That is horrible to even suggest. 
 ALL kids should get to ride, not ONLY disabled kids. Disabled children are not more deserving of fun than non-disabled kids. One of the most horrifying experiences I have had was a group of women at an early intervention outing explaining how nice it must be to have a "neurotypical" child - referring to my 2 year old who could barely sit up to watch their children peacefully playing in a group.  So can we stop acting like we can judge which person is "worthy" to ride rides over others? Having or not having a DAS or GAC does not equate to the joy and value of a ride.

I'm sure it would get old pretty fast if your only trip to Disney was spent in line waiting for kids deemed more deserving than you to get to ride.


----------



## ny3boys

I've been reading all of these posts and I don't have much to say about most if it. I don't think there is a good solution that will make even a majority of people happy. But when the discussion came to "immediate gratification" and the incentive for abuse. I got lost. Here is how I see it:
Rope drop at HS. 1000 people heading for Toy Story Mania. If 1% of them have a DAS, that is 10 DAS groups. Say 4 in a group for a total of 40 DAS riders. It may take them a little longer to get to the ride, so say the wait time is 20-30 minutes at that point- then they ALL get to get on immediately and have a "wait time" of 20 minutes after the ride is over- (which will probably be used just in the FP lane anyway if they all get in there almost at the same time- even longer if they have to wait for accessible vehicles). Meanwhile the wait time is going to jump up to 60+ minutes very quickly for most everyone else in the standby line- with fastpasses very late into the day or even gone- so no other option than standby for most. The DAS groups could possibly be on their 3rd ride (or maybe even more if it is a DAS abuser and not truly disabled and can run from ride to ride and take advantage of early morning lower wait times) by the time many of those initial 1000 get through TSM. *THAT* could be an "incentive" for abuse with this system. 

** I am NOT debating if it would benefit anyone that needed it or not- just saying how it would look very attractive for those looking to "beat" the system.


----------



## cmwade77

ny3boys said:
			
		

> I've been reading all of these posts and I don't have much to say about most if it. I don't think there is a good solution that will make even a majority of people happy. But when the discussion came to "immediate gratification" and the incentive for abuse. I got lost. Here is how I see it:
> Rope drop at HS. 1000 people heading for Toy Story Mania. If 1% of them have a DAS, that is 10 DAS groups. Say 4 in a group for a total of 40 DAS riders. It may take them a little longer to get to the ride, so say the wait time is 20-30 minutes at that point- then they ALL get to get on immediately and have a "wait time" of 20 minutes after the ride is over- (which will probably be used just in the FP lane anyway if they all get in there almost at the same time- even longer if they have to wait for accessible vehicles). Meanwhile the wait time is going to jump up to 60+ minutes very quickly for most everyone else in the standby line- with fastpasses very late into the day or even gone- so no other option than standby for most. The DAS groups could possibly be on their 3rd ride (or maybe even more if it is a DAS abuser and not truly disabled and can run from ride to ride and take advantage of early morning lower wait times) by the time many of those initial 1000 get through TSM. THAT could be an "incentive" for abuse with this system.
> 
> ** I am NOT debating if it would benefit anyone that needed it or not- just saying how it would look very attractive for those looking to "beat" the system.



But one could make the argument that anyone without a DAS could get a FP for TSMM and go on 4 attractions in that same amount of time by simply changing the order in which you do the rides. 

The problem that I see with the current system is that abuse still exists, it just changes who is committing the abuse.  Having to wait longer than those that don't need assistance would mean that those that don't need assistance are abusing the system. 

Now, it's not their fault, it is how Disney designed it, but it is still abusing the system to make others wait longer than you do. This is why the wait times need to be equal to prevent all abuse.


----------



## OurBigTrip

aaarcher86 said:


> This is something that bothers me. Every child that walk through those gates deserves a magical experience. Every child. I'm absolutely all for accommodations that work but an able child doesn't deserve to 'wait in line all day' because they haven't been dealt the same hand of cards as a disabled child. They are just as deserving of a magical time.
> 
> Lots of parents feel that those that don't have a disabled child feel that their kids are inferior, but parents of disabled children do the same thing just like this line of thinking. I can not imagine a normal human being being unwilling to wait a few extra minutes for a disabled child... But it's not one. It's not two. It is thousands along with their families.
> 
> And while it's a nice thought, I think you'd actually be pretty agitated to pay $1000 per day only to wait in line. A line has to be drawn somewhere and something has to be done that gives everyone the vacation they deserve and pay for.




So, so well said!


----------



## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:
			
		

> This is something that bothers me. Every child that walk through those gates deserves a magical experience. Every child. I'm absolutely all for accommodations that work but an able child doesn't deserve to 'wait in line all day' because they haven't been dealt the same hand of cards as a disabled child. They are just as deserving of a magical time.
> 
> Lots of parents feel that those that don't have a disabled child feel that their kids are inferior, but parents of disabled children do the same thing just like this line of thinking. I can not imagine a normal human being being unwilling to wait a few extra minutes for a disabled child... But it's not one. It's not two. It is thousands along with their families.
> 
> And while it's a nice thought, I think you'd actually be pretty agitated to pay $1000 per day only to wait in line. A line has to be drawn somewhere and something has to be done that gives everyone the vacation they deserve and pay for.



But the point is the current system isn't equal, it gives an advantage to those who don't need assistance in several ways vs those that do need assistance.


----------



## OurBigTrip

cmwade77 said:


> But the point is the current system isn't equal, it gives an advantage to those who don't need assistance in several ways vs those that do need assistance.



Sorry, I don't see several ways.  Not getting a return time near park closing, I agree, that's a disadvantage.  Having to wait so long for an accessible vehicle, I agree, that's a disadvantage, but that has nothing to do with the DAS. Other than that, I don't see the disadvantages.


----------



## Vidia2

aaarcher86 said:


> There are only a certain amount of disabled people allowed on a ride at a time for safety reasons which is why they have fewer WC accessible vehicles.
> 
> Not every handicap person has to wait for an accessible vehicle.



This isn't actually true.  I've been on many rides (at WDW) in which every passenger of our car was disabled.  Maybe you're referring to some situation at Disneyland, which by the way is the actual source of the problem, not WDW.


----------



## aaarcher86

cmwade77 said:


> But the point is the current system isn't equal, it gives an advantage to those who don't need assistance in several ways vs those that do need assistance.



From the sound if it, those in wheelchairs or those needing the accessible cars are absolutely at a disadvantage. Those obtaining a wait time and going through the normal FP lines are not, IMO. My feelings are based in WDW though and I know it's very different in DL. 

I think sending those needing accessible vehicles straight on since they wait already for a vehicle would be helpful and even issuing a FP along with the DAS to help that first initial wait. I haven't seen many complaints about the kiosks in WDW but it sounds like DL would benefit from more, or more CMs with the ability to give return times.


----------



## cmwade77

Vidia2 said:
			
		

> This isn't actually true.  I've been on many rides (at WDW) in which every passenger of our car was disabled.


It does depend on the attraction and the needs of the person. 

Some that are limited:
Pirates
Big Thunder
Small world
Haunted Mansion
Jungle cruise
dumbo
Rockin roller coaster
Dinosaur
Safari
Expedition Everest
Star Tours
California Screamin
Space Mountain
Matterhorn
Roger rabbit

There are others I am sure, but these are a few that have limits.


----------



## cmwade77

aaarcher86 said:
			
		

> From the sound if it, those in wheelchairs or those needing the accessible cars are absolutely at a disadvantage. Those obtaining a wait time and going through the normal FP lines are not, IMO. My feelings are based in WDW though and I know it's very different in DL.
> 
> I think sending those needing accessible vehicles straight on since they wait already for a vehicle would be helpful and even issuing a FP along with the DAS to help that first initial wait. I haven't seen many complaints about the kiosks in WDW but it sounds like DL would benefit from more, or more CMs with the ability to give return times.



But that's the point, on many attractions the rest of us have to wait in the same queue as those that need the accessible vehicles. Meaning we have to wait just as long as they do.


----------



## Vidia2

cmwade77 said:


> It does depend on the attraction and the needs of the person.
> 
> Some that are limited:
> Pirates
> Big Thunder
> Small world
> Haunted Mansion
> Jungle cruise
> dumbo
> Rockin roller coaster
> Dinosaur
> Safari
> Expedition Everest
> Star Tours
> California Screamin
> Space Mountain
> Matterhorn
> Roger rabbit
> 
> There are others I am sure, but these are a few that have limits.



I've been on some of these rides (at WDW) in which every person on our car came from the alternate entrance.  Maybe you're referring to Disneyland.  That place is a mess apparently.  I feel horribly for anyone with a disability trying to navigate that park.


----------



## aaarcher86

Vidia2 said:


> This isn't actually true.  I've been on many rides (at WDW) in which every passenger of our car was disabled.



Which ones and how could you possibly know that? The DAS podcast is where I'm getting my information. And this would be physically disabled due to safety of getting guests off the ride if it broke down.


----------



## aaarcher86

cmwade77 said:


> But that's the point, on many attractions the rest of us have to wait in the same queue as those that need the accessible vehicles. Meaning we have to wait just as long as they do.



If you don't need an accessible vehicle aren't you brought to the front and put in a regular vehicle?


----------



## ny3boys

cmwade77 said:


> But one could make the argument that anyone without a DAS could get a FP for TSMM and go on 4 attractions in that same amount of time by simply changing the order in which you do the rides
> 
> You could make that argument, but the fastpasses run out for TSM *very* quickly and not everyone even has a chance at one- it isn't a given. And if you do get one the return time may be HOURS away forcing you to stay in the park longer than you would have otherwise (if you want to use it). In your scenario, with a DAS, a person would be *almost* guaranteed a quick ride on TSM and finishing up most of the other big rides at HS in a fairly short period of time. It would be a big incentive to "abuse" the system. Just that ONE walk on ride, gives a big advantage-- and that is the carrot on the stick, which is enough for some incorrigible people.


----------



## lanejudy

aaarcher86 said:


> If you don't need an accessible vehicle aren't you brought to the front and put in a regular vehicle?



No, depending on the ride, you stay within the "accessible" queue right in line with everyone else.  If you are close to the front and the party ahead needs the accessible car, they may allow a couple of parties to pass ahead.  But generally, if you are in the "alternate" queue which is also used for those with mobility aids, whether or not you are transferring or need the accessible vehicle, all will wait.

This is from our experience at WDW.  I can't speak for DLR, but with fewer accessible queues and (what sounds like) even more with mobility aids, I think it's similar.  That is one of the major problems debated here, though not always clearly.  OP is making a suggestion to improve DAS because those in wheelchairs are waiting an exhoribant amount of time already.


----------



## aaarcher86

lanejudy said:


> No, depending on the ride, you stay within the "accessible" queue right in line with everyone else.  If you are close to the front and the party ahead needs the accessible car, they may allow a couple of parties to pass ahead.  But generally, if you are in the "alternate" queue which is also used for those with mobility aids, whether or not you are transferring or need the accessible vehicle, all will wait.  This is from our experience at WDW.  I can't speak for DLR, but with fewer accessible queues and (what sounds like) even more with mobility aids, I think it's similar.  That is one of the major problems debated here, though not always clearly.  OP is making a suggestion to improve DAS because those in wheelchairs are waiting an exhoribant amount of time already.



I agree they're already waiting an incredible amount of time. I've seen a lot of people saying they just get brought to the front to just grab the next car which is where I was getting my viewpoint from. 

The entire que system for alternate entry sounds like it needs a bit of revamping. I still think the DAS does it's job for those who do not need the alternate entrances.


----------



## Mom2six

aaarcher86 said:


> If you don't need an accessible vehicle aren't you brought to the front and put in a regular vehicle?



No, we never were when we went into those lines with the stroller as wheelchair tag.  We always waited in order.


----------



## Sunnywho

aaarcher86 said:


> From the sound if it, those in wheelchairs or those needing the accessible cars are absolutely at a disadvantage. Those obtaining a wait time and going through the normal FP lines are not, IMO.


Whether they're at an advantage or a disadvantage would depend on their disability, which is very individual.


----------



## OurBigTrip

aaarcher86 said:


> I agree they're already waiting an incredible amount of time. I've seen a lot of people saying they just get brought to the front to just grab the next car which is where I was getting my viewpoint from.
> 
> The entire que system for alternate entry sounds like it needs a bit of revamping. I still think the DAS does it's job for those who do not need the alternate entrances.



Agree 100%.  It really sounds like the biggest problem regarding inequitable wait times is for the alternate entry attractions.


----------



## Mom2six

mistysue said:


> Nobody said people should stay home. That is horrible to even suggest.
> ALL kids should get to ride, not ONLY disabled kids. Disabled children are not more deserving of fun than non-disabled kids. One of the most horrifying experiences I have had was a group of women at an early intervention outing explaining how nice it must be to have a "neurotypical" child - referring to my 2 year old who could barely sit up to watch their children peacefully playing in a group.  So can we stop acting like we can judge which person is "worthy" to ride rides over others? Having or not having a DAS or GAC does not equate to the joy and value of a ride.
> 
> I'm sure it would get old pretty fast if your only trip to Disney was spent in line waiting for kids deemed more deserving than you to get to ride.



I actually go on far more rides when touring with only my neurotypical children.  We wait in the normal line, and the whole experience is 100 percent easier than when my son with autism tours the park.  No, not ONLY disabled kids should ride...what you don't understand is that without assistance the disabled children won't be able to ride at all.  Sure, I want my 7 year old daughter to ride just as much as my 5 year old - the fact is she does so much  more at WDW than my  year old because she does not have his disability.  

She enjoys many rides.  She is not afraid when waiting in line, even though she has severe ADHD and is quite fidgety.  She enjoys the restaurants and characters and stopping for a snack.  He is terrified of new things.  He has horrible panic attacks in long lines.  He doesn't like to be crowded in. He can't process the sensory input very well.  He loves Disney World and loves some of the rides and thinks the characters are his close friends.  But even the rides he adores, he can't just get up and go on (or line up for). They scare him (even though he likes it), and he has to build up to it.  And by the time he works up the nerve to go on a ride, if we have to wait a long time, he loses it.  He then has all that emotional build-up, and not riding it will mean a full blown melt down and leaving the park.  

I don't think any kids are more deserving than any other kids.  I think all kids should be able to have the chance to go on rides and to see characters.  This past trip in September, we mostly did not spend time together as a family.  My son spent the majority of the time in the room.  And this was with a GAC not the DAS, so I don't know how he will manage it then.


----------



## Mom2six

ny3boys said:


> I've been reading all of these posts and I don't have much to say about most if it. I don't think there is a good solution that will make even a majority of people happy. But when the discussion came to "immediate gratification" and the incentive for abuse. I got lost. Here is how I see it:
> Rope drop at HS. 1000 people heading for Toy Story Mania. If 1% of them have a DAS, that is 10 DAS groups. Say 4 in a group for a total of 40 DAS riders. It may take them a little longer to get to the ride, so say the wait time is 20-30 minutes at that point- then they ALL get to get on immediately and have a "wait time" of 20 minutes after the ride is over- (which will probably be used just in the FP lane anyway if they all get in there almost at the same time- even longer if they have to wait for accessible vehicles). Meanwhile the wait time is going to jump up to 60+ minutes very quickly for most everyone else in the standby line- with fastpasses very late into the day or even gone- so no other option than standby for most. The DAS groups could possibly be on their 3rd ride (or maybe even more if it is a DAS abuser and not truly disabled and can run from ride to ride and take advantage of early morning lower wait times) by the time many of those initial 1000 get through TSM. *THAT* could be an "incentive" for abuse with this system.
> 
> ** I am NOT debating if it would benefit anyone that needed it or not- just saying how it would look very attractive for those looking to "beat" the system.



So, my son should have to suffer to make up for cheaters and abusers?  You are saying that abuse would make others wait longer, so better that the disabled have to give up touring the parks or wait longer and maybe go on no rides because they should pay for con artists and frauds?  Why is my 5 year old son responsible for bad behavior of others?


----------



## AndreaA

OurBigTrip said:


> Agree 100%.  It really sounds like the biggest problem regarding inequitable wait times is for the alternate entry attractions.



But it's not just those rides.  There are plenty of people who have a DAS in addition to needing a wheelchair.  That means they are going through the regular FP line and everyone behind them is waiting for them to get their one accessible ride car.  We were in a FP line with our GAC and waited for the people a few parties ahead of us.  We we're not pulled ahead of them.



Mom2six said:


> So, my son should have to suffer to make up for cheaters and abusers?  You are saying that abuse would make others wait longer, so better that the disabled have to give up touring the parks or wait longer and maybe go on no rides because they should pay for con artists and frauds?  Why is my 5 year old son responsible for bad behavior of others?



Well said.  No system is ever going to be completely "fair", (meaning identical wait times) or immune from abuse.  It seems like the are two camps.  Those who want the system to be "more fair" for the disabled, and those who want the system to be "more fair" for the average guest.  The thing is, that the inequity has far different results for each group.  If the disabled people get a better system then the average guest might have to wait a little longer.  And yes, it is a LITTLE LONGER, unless someone is going to come forward and say that standby times have suddenly halved since the inception of the DAS.  Meanwhile, if the average guest gets the better system then the disabled guests will have very difficult trips, in some cases resulting in an absolute inability to tour the parks.  How is that okay?

I would really really like to know if the standby lines have suddenly plummeted now that the GAC is gone.  From what I am reading about people there now or recently returned, the answer is an emphatic no.  So yeah. The new system isn't cutting down on those hour long waits, it's just making trips difficult or impossible for those who can't make the adjustment.  Where's the benefit again?


----------



## aaarcher86

Mom2six said:


> I actually go on far more rides when touring with only my neurotypical children.  We wait in the normal line, and the whole experience is 100 percent easier than when my son with autism tours the park.  No, not ONLY disabled kids should ride...what you don't understand is that without assistance the disabled children won't be able to ride at all.  Sure, I want my 7 year old daughter to ride just as much as my 5 year old - the fact is she does so much  more at WDW than my  year old because she does not have his disability.  She enjoys many rides.  She is not afraid when waiting in line, even though she has severe ADHD and is quite fidgety.  She enjoys the restaurants and characters and stopping for a snack.  He is terrified of new things.  He has horrible panic attacks in long lines.  He doesn't like to be crowded in. He can't process the sensory input very well.  He loves Disney World and loves some of the rides and thinks the characters are his close friends.  But even the rides he adores, he can't just get up and go on (or line up for). They scare him (even though he likes it), and he has to build up to it.  And by the time he works up the nerve to go on a ride, if we have to wait a long time, he loses it.  He then has all that emotional build-up, and not riding it will mean a full blown melt down and leaving the park.  I don't think any kids are more deserving than any other kids.  I think all kids should be able to have the chance to go on rides and to see characters.  This past trip in September, we mostly did not spend time together as a family.  My son spent the majority of the time in the room.  And this was with a GAC not the DAS, so I don't know how he will manage it then.



Would it be possible to spread out the FP+ times in conjunction with the DAS and build him up for the rides that has the return time coming up?


----------



## OurBigTrip

Mom2six said:


> So, my son should have to suffer to make up for cheaters and abusers?  You are saying that abuse would make others wait longer, so better that the disabled have to give up touring the parks or wait longer and maybe go on no rides because they should pay for con artists and frauds?  Why is my 5 year old son responsible for bad behavior of others?



Regardless of what the cheaters and scammers did, IMO everyone should have to wait, except for Wish kids.


----------



## Mom2six

mistysue said:


> ...If it is not so bright and shiney, some of those families will choose to spend their energy planning more intelligently, rather than walking into HS at noon and expecting to immediately ride TSM, RNR and TOT within a couple hours.
> 
> Then there are situations, as you are saying, where a person can not be planned out, can not "just learn to wait"- this is the exception to the norm, even among those who need assistance. Just as it is not reasonable for you to not get an extra hand, it is not fair that anybody can walk in to GS, say they cant wait (simplifying here) and get all of the accomodations needed by an individual with a much more complex situation.



We do smart planning.  We go on recommended days, get there as early as we can, and have a touring plan.  It is not enough to allow my son to go on rides.  I agree everyone shouldn't be able to get the same accommodations- it should be based on true need.  I do wish that proof could be used because I sure would bring it and support having to prove the disability.


----------



## aaarcher86

Sunnywho said:


> Whether they're at an advantage or a disadvantage would depend on their disability, which is very individual.



Well, everyone waits. It's just a question as to where. People have the ability this way of taking care of their needs and accessing a ride or attraction. And I really don't find that unreasonable.


----------



## OurBigTrip

AndreaA said:


> But it's not just those rides.  There are plenty of people who have a DAS in addition to needing a wheelchair.  That means they are going through the regular FP line and everyone behind them is waiting for them to get their one accessible ride car.  We were in a FP line with our GAC and waited for the people a few parties ahead of us.  We we're not pulled ahead of them.



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that if someone in a wheelchair is in the Fast Pass line, and they need an accessible vehicle, everyone behind them has to wait until one comes along?  If so, I agree, that's ridiculous.



> I would really really like to know if the standby lines have suddenly plummeted now that the GAC is gone.  From what I am reading about people there now or recently returned, the answer is an emphatic no.  So yeah. The new system isn't cutting down on those hour long waits, it's just making trips difficult or impossible for those who can't make the adjustment.  Where's the benefit again?



The benefit is that everyone is waiting their turn, which is as it should be, IMO.


----------



## aaarcher86

AndreaA said:


> But it's not just those rides.  There are plenty of people who have a DAS in addition to needing a wheelchair.  That means they are going through the regular FP line and everyone behind them is waiting for them to get their one accessible ride car.  We were in a FP line with our GAC and waited for the people a few parties ahead of us.  We we're not pulled ahead of them.  I would really really like to know if the standby lines have suddenly plummeted now that the GAC is gone.  From what I am reading about people there now or recently returned, the answer is an emphatic no.  So yeah. The new system isn't cutting down on those hour long waits, it's just making trips difficult or impossible for those who can't make the adjustment.  Where's the benefit again?



I've seen (it escapes me where) a post from a CM saying the ques are flowing much more reasonably. There was some percentage given. Both parks have had a HUGE increase in park attendance that normally isn't happening this time of year so I think it's really hard to gauge it very well just yet. I was also under the impression that if you need an accessible vehicle you go that particular line, not throughout he regular FP line even with a DAS. The podcast also have an example of people in the handicap line with DAS cards being pulled to the front. 

Disney really can't be responsible or held accountable for difficulty in adjusting. They have to change things as a business as needed. Things change all the time with life and adjusting has to happen. They can't keep a broken system around because guests have a difficult time with a new routine.


----------



## curemyreed

For those of you willing to acknowledge WC users who are DAS card holders are sometimes having to wait an unequal & longer amount of time to ride an attraction AND you are also concerned about people "gaming the system".....I am seeing different suggestions by you about how to equalize the situation. Two examples I have seen are for these guests to be admitted directly into the FP line  (or WC accessible entry, if different) or to have a different DAS system for these guests. Do you not think that the same pukes who abused the system before will not just lie again to get a DAS card and park their butts in a WC to get this access? If you are worried about people "cheating" then this is an easy avenue to do so.

I don't know what the answer to fix this problem of waiting longer than standby riders would be. I think cmwade77's suggested DAS system addresses the issue better than anything else I have read. If the remedy is to allow this segment of DAS users to go directly into FP return lines (or WC accessible entries, if different) I believe the same rotten people who faked disability before will see an opportunity to do so again. Are the vile people willing to fake their way into the situation going make me say, "Well, too bad for you. You will have to wait longer than others so that no cheaters game the system."? Nope. The needs of the many for equal access outweigh the affront of the few who would abuse the system.


----------



## jenineh

aaarcher86 said:


> I've seen (it escapes me where) a post from a CM saying the ques are flowing much more reasonably. There was some percentage given. Both parks have had a HUGE increase in park attendance that normally isn't happening this time of year so I think it's really hard to gauge it very well just yet. I was also under the impression that if you need an accessible vehicle you go that particular line, not throughout he regular FP line even with a DAS. The podcast also have an example of people in the handicap line with DAS cards being pulled to the front.  Disney really can't be responsible or held accountable for difficulty in adjusting. They have to change things as a business as needed. Things change all the time with life and adjusting has to happen. They can't keep a broken system around because guests have a difficult time with a new routine.





Very well said!


----------



## AndreaA

OurBigTrip said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that if someone in a wheelchair is in the Fast Pass line, and they need an accessible vehicle, everyone behind them has to wait until one comes along?  If so, I agree, that's ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> The benefit is that everyone is waiting their turn, which is as it should be, IMO.



Yes, there were wheelchairs in the FP line.

As to our second statement, everyone in the proposed system is also waiting, and if the issue is that their waiting is done while riding or walking, well in the current system, people can ride things while they wait.  If the proposed system means that someone will use up their wait while walking to the next attraction, that is actually one fewer ride they are able to do.  It would also be easy to add a length of ride to the wait time and even a five minute travel allotment if that's what people are dickering over.

And man, your world really is black and white isn't it?  It sounds like you wouldn't even care if the new system actually resulted in longer waits for you and the disabled people you would still endorse it because it's equal.


----------



## curemyreed

[QUOTEThey can't keep a broken system around because guests have a difficult time with a new routine.[/QUOTE]

I agree that they can't keep this broken DAS system around. Although I don't think it is broken due to guests having a hard time with a new routine. But rather because it is forcing some guests to wait longer than those in standby lines. And forcing disabled people to travel around more to ride an attraction. I hope that Disney will work to fix this broken system. Surely, they are noting the flaws and working toward fixing it. I believe them when they say they want all guests to have an equal opportunity to enjoy their parks. I hope they don't continue too long subjecting the disabled to inequality just to appease those who think that different access is better than what they are getting.


----------



## aaarcher86

As far as gaming the system if people are allowed straight into the accessible line, they still have to wait. I can't see it being very attractive for a gamer... They just shouldn't have to wait twice. I'm sure there are times that the stars align and they get right onto an attraction but I'd say that's rare. The biggest draw for the scammers was going right into the FP line and waiting 10 minutes whenever they wanted. 




curemyreed said:


> [QUOTEThey can't keep a broken system around because guests have a difficult time with a new routine.


  I agree that they can't keep this broken DAS system around. Although I don't think it is broken due to guests having a hard time with a new routine. But rather because it is forcing some guests to wait longer than those in standby lines. And forcing disabled people to travel around more to ride an attraction. I hope that Disney will work to fix this broken system. Surely, they are noting the flaws and working toward fixing it. I believe them when they say they want all guests to have an equal opportunity to enjoy their parks. I hope they don't continue too long subjecting the disabled to inequality just to appease those who think that different access is better than what they are getting.[/QUOTE]

It's not so much in this thread, but I've seen a slew of complaints from people who are unhappy about having to wait before they can go into the FP line. There's also a lot of criticism saying their children don't have the cognitive ability to understand why they can't do something immediately like they have before, but this thread has really kind of turned into more of a discussion on added waits for the accessible/alternate entrance lines.


----------



## Schmeck

Robbi said:


> You're right, it would make it easier. It seems silly to me that people will walk around the parks with cards that have their pictures that identify them as people with a disability yet we cannot show medical proof even if we want to do that.



Medical proof shows a disability, but it does not show what accommodations would help someone. As it has been stated many times before, two people with the same disability do not necessarily have the same needs for accommodation.

And don't forget the notorious doctor's notes that state "this child cannot wait in line and needs immediate access."


----------



## Sunnywho

aaarcher86 said:


> Well, everyone waits. It's just a question as to where. People have the ability this way of taking care of their needs and accessing a ride or attraction. And I really don't find that unreasonable.


If the wait for the autistic child is 10 times harder than the wait for the neurotypical child, than the autistic child is at a disadvantage, even if the wait is of equal length and even if the autistic child is allowed to wander the park while waiting. It's not possible to achieve equality. We are all too different. If the focus instead is on access, there should be no insurmountable obstacles between a disabled guest and a ride. A single parent at Disney World with an autistic child is expected to approach a ride and then leave with a time and then go back when the time is up: for some this is doable, for some it is not. The flipped-wait plan proposed by cmwade solves this. It's kinda brilliant and it will probably invite more abuse but I'd rather see the margin of error be on more abusers getting in than on more disabled guests getting shut out.


----------



## OurBigTrip

> I agree that they can't keep this broken DAS system around. Although I don't think it is broken due to guests having a hard time with a new routine. But rather because it is forcing some guests to wait longer than those in standby lines. And forcing disabled people to travel around more to ride an attraction. I hope that Disney will work to fix this broken system. Surely, they are noting the flaws and working toward fixing it. I believe them when they say they want all guests to have an equal opportunity to enjoy their parks. I hope they don't continue too long subjecting the disabled to inequality just to appease those who think that different access is better than what they are getting.



The DAS isn't nearly as broken as the GAC was. 

And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, being able to ride attractions with little to no wait, as many times as they want to, again, with no wait IS better access than non-GAC guests were getting.


----------



## OurBigTrip

AndreaA said:


> And man, your world really is black and white isn't it?  It sounds like you wouldn't even care if the new system actually resulted in longer waits for you and the disabled people you would still endorse it because it's equal.



I have no reason to believe that the new system will result in longer waits for the non-disabled, I believe quite the contrary.  

I believe that everyone (with rare exceptions) should have to wait, period.


----------



## aaarcher86

Sunnywho said:


> If the wait for the autistic child is 10 times harder than the wait for the neurotypical child, than the autistic child is at a disadvantage, even if the wait is of equal length and even if the autistic child is allowed to wander the park while waiting. It's not possible to achieve equality. We are all too different. If the focus instead is on access, there should be no insurmountable obstacles between a disabled guest and a ride. A single parent at Disney World with an autistic child is expected to approach a ride and then leave with a time and then go back when the time is up: for some this is doable, for some it is not. The flipped-wait plan proposed by cmwade solves this. It's kinda brilliant and it will probably invite more abuse but I'd rather see the margin of error be on more abusers getting in than on more disabled guests getting shut out.



   There are kiosks to give a return time in conjunction with FP+. You don't have to go to the ride and leave it. I can understand waiting is more difficult but I also think that it kind of goes with the territory when going to a theme park.   

My girlfriend's autistic child can't handle ground that changes... I can only explain it like mud or sand or gravel. Something that changes in feeling while walking on it. As such, she doesn't take him to the beach. If she did, she'd understand that she'd need to work with and around his issues. Obviously WDW is setting up accommodations to help whereas the beach doesn't, but my point was that disabilities do limit what we can do and how we can do it.   

I know someone else pointed this out but I would assume Disney looked into that type of system since some of the other CA parks use it.


----------



## Sunnywho

aaarcher86 said:


> There are kiosks to give a return time. You don't have to go to the ride and leave it.


At Disney World there are no kiosks.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Sunnywho said:


> If the wait for the autistic child is 10 times harder than the wait for the neurotypical child, than the autistic child is at a disadvantage, even if the wait is of equal length and even if the autistic child is allowed to wander the park while waiting. It's not possible to achieve equality. We are all too different. If the focus instead is on access, there should be no insurmountable obstacles between a disabled guest and a ride. A single parent at Disney World with an autistic child is expected to approach a ride and then leave with a time and then go back when the time is up: for some this is doable, for some it is not. The flipped-wait plan proposed by cmwade solves this. It's kinda brilliant and it will probably invite more abuse but I'd rather see the margin of error be on more abusers getting in than on more disabled guests getting shut out.



Disney is providing equal access, which is all they are required to do.  There is no doubt that many people don't like the new system, precisely because it is equal access.  For way too long, too many people were accustomed to privileged access, and Disney is, and rightly so IMO, doing their best to take that away.


----------



## aaarcher86

Sunnywho said:


> At Disney World there are no kiosks.



Sorry. I edited. But it's also incredibly difficult to figure out which park people Re talking about at any given time. Also according to the FAQ you can get a return time at any FP+ kiosk throughout the park.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Sunnywho said:


> At Disney World there are no kiosks.



An easy fix would be to allow a CM at any attraction provide a wait time for any other attraction using the Disney app.


----------



## Sunnywho

OurBigTrip said:


> An easy fix would be to allow a CM at any attraction provide a wait time for any other attraction using the Disney app.


That would work, I think. 

The focus on equality in terms of minutes seems not correct from the disabled perspective. I can only speak for myself but where other people might say, "I have time for this," or "I don't have time for this," I say, "I have energy for this" or "I don't have energy for this." I run out of energy really fast, and there are things I can do to slightly improve the situation, but overall it's the disability and it is what it is. So for me, to wait in line, I'm not concerned about the units of time that are passing, I'm concerned about the units of energy that are being used up. The same wait might cost me many times the energy it costs someone else. This is mental energy; my brain wears out. I think for autistic children, it's sometimes emotional energy; their emotions wear out.

For me, the current DAS system is perfect. The quiet waiting areas are exactly what I need and will use, but I am worried that the CM might not give me a DAS. Hidden disabilities are difficult to explain.


----------



## Talking Hands

OurBigTrip said:


> Disney is providing equal access, which is all they are required to do. There is no doubt that many people don't like the new system, precisely because it is equal access. For way too long, too many people were accustomed to privileged access, and Disney is, and rightly so IMO, doing their best to take that away.


You claim Disney is providing equal access.  That is purely your opinion.  Whether the wait is before or after we still will wait.  Some disabilities just plain don't and will not get equal access.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Talking Hands said:


> You claim Disney is providing equal access.  That is purely your opinion.  Whether the wait is before or after we still will wait.  Some disabilities just plain don't and will not get equal access.



Yes, I understand that not all of the shows are interpreted, which complicates your touring plans considerably.


----------



## Talking Hands

Sunnywho said:


> That would work, I think.
> 
> The focus on equality in terms of minutes seems not correct from the disabled perspective. I can only speak for myself but where other people might say, "I have time for this," or "I don't have time for this," I say, "I have energy for this" or "I don't have energy for this." I run out of energy really fast, and there are things I can do to slightly improve the situation, but overall it's the disability and it is what it is. So for me, to wait in line, I'm not concerned about the units of time that are passing, I'm concerned about the units of energy that are being used up. The same wait might cost me many times the energy it costs someone else. This is mental energy; my brain wears out. I think for autistic children, it's sometimes emotional energy; their emotions wear out.


 This is so true.  It isn't always physical energy that runs out but mental.  Add a physical disability that is taken care of by a power wheelchair to several hidden disabilities including mental meltdowns life becomes a lot more difficult and less equal.


----------



## curemyreed

aaarcher86 said:


> As far as gaming the system if people are allowed straight into the accessible line, they still have to wait. I can't see it being very attractive for a gamer... They just shouldn't have to wait twice. I'm sure there are times that the stars align and they get right onto an attraction but I'd say that's rare. The biggest draw for the scammers was going right into the FP line and waiting 10 minutes whenever they wanted.
> 
> 
> I agree that they can't keep this broken DAS system around. Although I don't think it is broken due to guests having a hard time with a new routine. But rather because it is forcing some guests to wait longer than those in standby lines. And forcing disabled people to travel around more to ride an attraction. I hope that Disney will work to fix this broken system. Surely, they are noting the flaws and working toward fixing it. I believe them when they say they want all guests to have an equal opportunity to enjoy their parks. I hope they don't continue too long subjecting the disabled to inequality just to appease those who think that different access is better than what they are getting.



It's not so much in this thread, but I've seen a slew of complaints from people who are unhappy about having to wait before they can go into the FP line. There's also a lot of criticism saying their children don't have the cognitive ability to understand why they can't do something immediately like they have before, but this thread has really kind of turned into more of a discussion on added waits for the accessible/alternate entrance lines.[/QUOTE]

A concern of so many bothering to post here seems to be that all guests wait an equal amount of time. I don't remember from your previous posts if this includes you? This would not happen if SOME guests were admitted straight into the accessible line or possibly given an alternative DAS system. At times this solution could result in equal waits to standby lines. At other times it will result in shorter than standby wait times. This flies in the face of the "you shouldn't get to wait in line less than me because you are disabled" attitude.

I don't care if disabled guests wait less than me. Some here apparently do. How do we know what is attractive to a gamer? How can we know what the biggest draw was for them? I've never seen one of them post about  his/her deeds. I've only seen people post their perceptions of how people were cheating using the GAC. And one MSM article about an insignificant number of Manhattanites abusing the system; I believe the author referred to them as the 1%. If you are referencing the NY Post regarding "rich Manhattan moms hiring handicapped tour guides so kids can cut lines at Disneyworld"...why wouldn't these moms adapt & hire handicapped guests to bring them into instantly accessible ride queues? It would be a stretch to think that these queues won't have less wait times varying by ride, time of day, etc. while at other times the wait time will be equal to standby times. There would be less than waiting than just doing standby lines.

I also have read threads regarding waits to return to the ride and how guests with cognitive differences are struggling. I chose not to include it because another trend on this thread I have seen is that when a flaw to the DAS system is noted some folks (not saying you, I have no idea) throw those subjects out as red herrings. I'm not addressing whether autistic kids should be made to wait the same amount of time as neurotypical kids. That is a whole other topic to discuss.


----------



## curemyreed

OurBigTrip said:


> The DAS isn't nearly as broken as the GAC was.
> 
> And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, being able to ride attractions with little to no wait, as many times as they want to, again, with no wait IS better access than non-GAC guests were getting.



Did I compare the GAC to the DAS system? Where did I reference a guest riding attractions repeatedly with no wait? This is a red herring which serves to not address the flaws I spoke about in the DAS system.


----------



## OurBigTrip

curemyreed said:


> Did I compare the GAC to the DAS system? Where did I reference a guest riding attractions repeatedly with no wait? This is a red herring which serves to not address the flaws I spoke about in the DAS system.




The post you quoted and responded to, the one talking about a broken system, was referring to the GAC, not the DAS.  Your comments then twisted that around to say the DAS was broken.


----------



## cmwade77

curemyreed said:


> A concern of so many bothering to post here seems to be that all guests wait an equal amount of time. I don't remember from your previous posts if this includes you? This would not happen if SOME guests were admitted straight into the accessible line or possibly given an alternative DAS system. At times this solution could result in equal waits to standby lines. At other times it will result in shorter than standby wait times. This flies in the face of the "you shouldn't get to wait in line less than me because you are disabled" attitude.


I don't think that those that need assistance should have any shorter wait than those that don't, but I also don't think the wait should be any longer either.

The system I suggested equalizes the waits, really both systems I have suggested (either from the original post or getting your next return time when you enter a queue for an attraction) does this.


----------



## aaarcher86

curemyreed said:


> It's not so much in this thread, but I've seen a slew of complaints from people who are unhappy about having to wait before they can go into the FP line. There's also a lot of criticism saying their children don't have the cognitive ability to understand why they can't do something immediately like they have before, but this thread has really kind of turned into more of a discussion on added waits for the accessible/alternate entrance lines.


  A concern of so many bothering to post here seems to be that all guests wait an equal amount of time. I don't remember from your previous posts if this includes you? This would not happen if SOME guests were admitted straight into the accessible line or possibly given an alternative DAS system. At times this solution could result in equal waits to standby lines. At other times it will result in shorter than standby wait times. This flies in the face of the "you shouldn't get to wait in line less than me because you are disabled" attitude.  I don't care if disabled guests wait less than me. Some here apparently do. How do we know what is attractive to a gamer? How can we know what the biggest draw was for them? I've never seen one of them post about  his/her deeds. I've only seen people post their perceptions of how people were cheating using the GAC. And one MSM article about an insignificant number of Manhattanites abusing the system; I believe the author referred to them as the 1%. If you are referencing the NY Post regarding "rich Manhattan moms hiring handicapped tour guides so kids can cut lines at Disneyworld"...why wouldn't these moms adapt & hire handicapped guests to bring them into instantly accessible ride queues? It would be a stretch to think that these queues won't have less wait times varying by ride, time of day, etc. while at other times the wait time will be equal to standby times. There would be less than waiting than just doing standby lines.  I also have read threads regarding waits to return to the ride and how guests with cognitive differences are struggling. I chose not to include it because another trend on this thread I have seen is that when a flaw to the DAS system is noted some folks (not saying you, I have no idea) throw those subjects out as red herrings. I'm not addressing whether autistic kids should be made to wait the same amount of time as neurotypical kids. That is a whole other topic to discuss.[/QUOTE]

IMO, knowing that mobility challenged guests need to wait for a certain few vehicles I wouldn't really care if they wait less than I do. If it works out that way than its of no doing of their own. I imagine it'd all end balancing out. 

I think what's attractive to a gamer in this instance is pretty easy to decipher... Little wait. Could someone do the same hiring of a wheelchair bound individual? Sure. But I'm willing to bet 9/10 the wait would be longer if anything else. 

And no, I haven't mentioned what effects the new DAS system and/or alternate entrances will have on my family because I'm a personal believer of keeping emotions out of discussions like these. I try not to make this type of stuff too personal. I also think that no matter if it effects someone directly or not that we are all entitled to an opinion


----------



## curemyreed

OurBigTrip said:


> The post you quoted and responded to, the one talking about a broken system, was referring to the GAC, not the DAS.  Your comments then twisted that around to say the DAS was broken.



No, no twisting. I was responding to post #334 where the author uses the DAS acronym repeatedly, but never the GAC. Sounds like you read her interpretation of a broken system differently than me.


----------



## OurBigTrip

curemyreed said:


> No, no twisting. I was responding to post #334 where the author uses the DAS acronym repeatedly, but never the GAC. Sounds like you read her interpretation of a broken system differently than me.



Nope.



> Disney really can't be responsible or held accountable for difficulty in adjusting. They have to change things as a business as needed. Things change all the time with life and adjusting has to happen. They can't keep a broken system around because guests have a difficult time with a new routine.



The poster is referring to the change from the GAC to the DAS, with the GAC being the broken system.


----------



## cmwade77

OurBigTrip said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that if someone in a wheelchair is in the Fast Pass line, and they need an accessible vehicle, everyone behind them has to wait until one comes along?  If so, I agree, that's ridiculous.


At certain attractions, guests who need assistance (particularly if they can't do stairs) indeed have to wait behind the people who need an accessible vehicle. Small World at DLR is one example, California Screamin' is another example of this.


----------



## curemyreed

aaarcher86 said:


> A concern of so many bothering to post here seems to be that all guests wait an equal amount of time. I don't remember from your previous posts if this includes you? This would not happen if SOME guests were admitted straight into the accessible line or possibly given an alternative DAS system. At times this solution could result in equal waits to standby lines. At other times it will result in shorter than standby wait times. This flies in the face of the "you shouldn't get to wait in line less than me because you are disabled" attitude.  I don't care if disabled guests wait less than me. Some here apparently do. How do we know what is attractive to a gamer? How can we know what the biggest draw was for them? I've never seen one of them post about  his/her deeds. I've only seen people post their perceptions of how people were cheating using the GAC. And one MSM article about an insignificant number of Manhattanites abusing the system; I believe the author referred to them as the 1%. If you are referencing the NY Post regarding "rich Manhattan moms hiring handicapped tour guides so kids can cut lines at Disneyworld"...why wouldn't these moms adapt & hire handicapped guests to bring them into instantly accessible ride queues? It would be a stretch to think that these queues won't have less wait times varying by ride, time of day, etc. while at other times the wait time will be equal to standby times. There would be less than waiting than just doing standby lines.  I also have read threads regarding waits to return to the ride and how guests with cognitive differences are struggling. I chose not to include it because another trend on this thread I have seen is that when a flaw to the DAS system is noted some folks (not saying you, I have no idea) throw those subjects out as red herrings. I'm not addressing whether autistic kids should be made to wait the same amount of time as neurotypical kids. That is a whole other topic to discuss.



IMO, knowing that mobility challenged guests need to wait for a certain few vehicles I wouldn't really care if they wait less than I do. If it works out that way than its of no doing of their own. I imagine it'd all end balancing out. 

I think what's attractive to a gamer in this instance is pretty easy to decipher... Little wait. Could someone do the same hiring of a wheelchair bound individual? Sure. But I'm willing to bet 9/10 the wait would be longer if anything else. 

And no, I haven't mentioned what effects the new DAS system and/or alternate entrances will have on my family because I'm a personal believer of keeping emotions out of discussions like these. I try not to make this type of stuff too personal. I also think that no matter if it effects someone directly or not that we are all entitled to an opinion [/QUOTE]

I'm seeing plenty of people able to discuss the effects of these changes without becoming emotional or too personal. And I bet a lot of people, like you, choose to engage in the discussion without discussing how it impacts them or their family individually. Still others seem to be posting who are not disabled or connected to someone who is. With so many concerned folks there are a lot of minds exploring whether cmwade77's system may improve upon the DAS system and why it may or may not do so. I see that as a positive.


----------



## curemyreed

OurBigTrip said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> The poster is referring to the change from the GAC to the DAS, with the GAC being the broken system.



Agree to disagree. You read it one way. I read it another.


----------



## Vidia2

cmwade77 said:


> At certain attractions, guests who need assistance (particularly if they can't do stairs) indeed have to wait behind the people who need an accessible vehicle. Small World at DLR is one example, California Screamin' is another example of this.



I'm just going to reply to this post instead of going back to your original post that states your proposed solution to the broken DAS.

Just want to say that it sounds like a good idea (your plan) but what's your plan to get this info to Disney and is the point of this thread to get ideas from others?

Personally, I plan to write my own letters after I've had a chance to use the broken DAS but for my family the new FP+ plan might work as a fix since we'll plan to use one for the first ride of the day, after we get our return time, and then alternate.  That's six rides that will get done in the same amount of time that we've always done them. Then we'll do more rides that aren't headliners after that.  Not everyone will be able to do this so there should be a better system.

Point being that there are two sides on this thread and neither side is going to convince the other side and we'll all be contacting Disney with our own issues.

Are you gathering info for a group letter?  Do you plan on starting a petition?  Is this just another place for the people who think that the ADA is to protect non-disabled from disabled people having something that they don't?

What's the plan?

Other than tweaking the system, do you think that Disney is going to make any major changes to the system?

These people who are complaining about people with disabilities will always complain about something, especially when they figure out that FP and FP+ numbers are being reduced in number while they're focusing their attention elsewhere.  It's not as if Disney is going to detrimentally change the lines for the disabled and not stick it to the non-disabled as well.  It's equality after all.


----------



## AndreaA

OurBigTrip said:


> I have no reason to believe that the new system will result in longer waits for the non-disabled, I believe quite the contrary.
> 
> I believe that everyone (with rare exceptions) should have to wait, period.



I believe you misunderstood my point.  I believe that you would hypothetically rather have everything worse for everyone as long as it's equal than have things hypothetically improve for everyone with the side effect that things are slightly unequal, favoring the disabled.  Let's face it; nothing is ever going to be equal.  It's either going to favor the majority or the minority.  Clearly you prefer that favor to go towards the majority, while at the same time professing that it's "equal".

And once again, in the proposed system, the disabled people ARE WAITING.  They're just waiting after the ride instead of before it.  They are waiting before their next ride.  They are not just merrily skipping from one FP queue to the next.  If line time equalty is your goal - which it should be - then you should have no problem with the proposed system, especially not if it also included adding ride time and even an "average travel time" to the blackout time.  Did you even read my post about how the proposed system will likely cut down on people riding "extra" rides during their wait, which is currently possible with the DAS system?  So technically the proposed system would have disabled people riding fewer rides than the DAS system.  But really, I feel like your issue isn't one of equality, it's one of stubbornness.  You don't just want people to have to wait their turn.  You want them to be waiting right along side you - in spirit if not in the flesh - and that just strikes me as petty.  So they're waiting 50min to ride Buzz Lightyear instead of 50 minutes to ride Space Mountain.  Is that really such a big deal to you?  You'll still both be entering the Buzz line at about the same time.


----------



## DisneyNutMary

After 24 pages of debate, I am actually seeing a how the OPs idea could actually work for a more equal experience than currently exists. 
Though I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, as the door is open somewhere in there for abusers. But allow me to give a scenario. 

OP and I arrive at Space Mtn simultaneously, I enter standby line 45 min posted wait, with a 5 min total ride time. OP shows DAS, is stamped for a blackout period of 50 min (my wait + ride duration). OP may ride within the next few. minutes, or may hit a log jam in line and wait 30 min to ride; let's assume the log jam affects the FP line but not the standby line, although OP will exit SM before me, we will both be free to ride again at about the same time.  So,essentially, the OP and I had the same wait, but the attraction determined where and how OP would wait. 
To counter my own argument of walk time between attractions, and to make abuse less appealing to abusers, the CMs can add 10 minutes to the blackout time- as opposed to deducting it as is the current procedure. 
The more I chew on it, the more the idea has merit in my mind....I'm sure there are ways to control DAS overload from the "instant access" from slowing down the standby queue. Maybe CMs at the loading platforms could use a different ratio of FP to standby access, to allow the standby line to move a bit quicker.
OP thanks for giving me a different perspective....though it's far from the perfect solution, I do finally see the merit of your suggestion.


----------



## curemyreed

@cmwade77---I think this got lost back in the thread. I imagine that when Disney decided they needed to change their GAC system they must have studied the various systems in use at other parks. And for whatever reason, they did not go with yours which is similar to Universal Studios Hollywood. I started to ask your thoughts as to why, but who can know, I guess.  Maybe a better question is do you think they will be receptive to a system they must have evaluated and not implemented?


----------



## aaarcher86

curemyreed said:


> IMO, knowing that mobility challenged guests need to wait for a certain few vehicles I wouldn't really care if they wait less than I do. If it works out that way than its of no doing of their own. I imagine it'd all end balancing out.  I think what's attractive to a gamer in this instance is pretty easy to decipher... Little wait. Could someone do the same hiring of a wheelchair bound individual? Sure. But I'm willing to bet 9/10 the wait would be longer if anything else.  And no, I haven't mentioned what effects the new DAS system and/or alternate entrances will have on my family because I'm a personal believer of keeping emotions out of discussions like these. I try not to make this type of stuff too personal. I also think that no matter if it effects someone directly or not that we are all entitled to an opinion


  I'm seeing plenty of people able to discuss the effects of these changes without becoming emotional or too personal. And I bet a lot of people, like you, choose to engage in the discussion without discussing how it impacts them or their family individually. Still others seem to be posting who are not disabled or connected to someone who is. With so many concerned folks there are a lot of minds exploring whether cmwade77's system may improve upon the DAS system and why it may or may not do so. I see that as a positive.[/QUOTE]

Oh, absolutely. I'm glad it's been very clean and mature for the most part.


----------



## aaarcher86

curemyreed said:


> @cmwade77---I think this got lost back in the thread. I imagine that when Disney decided they needed to change their GAC system they must have studied the various systems in use at other parks. And for whatever reason, they did not go with yours which is similar to Universal Studios Hollywood. I started to ask your thoughts as to why, but who can know, I guess.  Maybe a better question is do you think they will be receptive to a system they must have evaluated and not implemented?



I kind of wonder he same thing. I imagine Disney did their homework on this. I wonder if they based it off of WDW and how the theme parks in Florida operate over California. And perhaps,they wanted to keep the same system at both places to lessen confusion.


----------



## mistysue

aaarcher86 said:


> I kind of wonder he same thing. I imagine Disney did their homework on this. I wonder if they based it off of WDW and how the theme parks in Florida operate over California. And perhaps,they wanted to keep the same system at both places to lessen confusion.



I know pre-release of the new system there was a lot of discussion about them trying to keep both parks the same. 
On the boards we know how different they are, but a lot of people think they are essentially the same park. I suspect they want to cut down on angry people when they cross coasts and have to adapt on arrival.


----------



## AndreaA

curemyreed said:


> @cmwade77---I think this got lost back in the thread. I imagine that when Disney decided they needed to change their GAC system they must have studied the various systems in use at other parks. And for whatever reason, they did not go with yours which is similar to Universal Studios Hollywood. I started to ask your thoughts as to why, but who can know, I guess.  Maybe a better question is do you think they will be receptive to a system they must have evaluated and not implemented?



I think a lot will depend on the feedback they are getting from guests, as well as how many "extras" they are currently giving to people with more serious needs.  It seems as though special passes are currently being given out to people who do not understand the concept of waiting and likely never will.  It also seems like with the proposed system, that would not be so necessary.  Dawdling from one ride to the next in order to eat up the wait time is a heck of a lot easier than having to either split up and send a DAS runner over to a completely different area or, worse yet, risk getting closer to the ride which could trigger that "need to ride" mental state.  Surely being able to keep more people sticking to the "standard plan" would be much easier than having to decide who really needs the extra passes and having people argue because they've seen x number of people using those special passes and they want one too.


----------



## CaliforniaGirl09

AndreaA said:


> Try doing that with someone who is cognitively disabled (and no, I don't just mean autistic) and see how well it works to hang around outside the ride they are insisting on going on.
> 
> And let's not bother going down the "they should learn how to wait" road.  Some people will never "learn to wait".  Some people will never live outside their parents' home or a qualified institution/home.  So saying they need to learn to make it in the real world is pointless.
> 
> 
> 
> How is it not a disadvantage to have to go to a ride and then walk away and then go back later and still have to wait in a line?  What attraction is there to do at BTMRR that doesn't require an exhausting walk up and down a rather steep hill?
> 
> It just seems to me that the argument with the solution proposed in this thread is that the disabled people don't have to wait at the same time as average guest.  They DO have to wait, just at a different time, and apparently some people think that is somehow giving them something "extra".  With the current DAS they would be able to visit other attractions/eat/bathroom, so that's not an advantage of the proposed system, it's just that they can ride when the urge/need strikes and then do their waiting by perhaps dawdling on the way to their next ride or otherwise distracting their loved one before they even get near the next ride. To me it sounds like some perverse envy.  You don't get "instant gratification" so neither should anyone else, even if their mental state is such that they could be in physical or mental distress otherwise.  I just don't get it.



Neither do I. Very well said. 



AndreaA said:


> But really, I feel like your issue isn't one of equality, it's one of stubbornness.  You don't just want people to have to wait their turn.  You want them to be waiting right along side you - in spirit if not in the flesh - and that just strikes me as petty.



Again, very well said. In reading through all the posts, yours really resonated  with me, and I think you've struck on the problem in creating a DAS/GAC/whatever you want to call it kind of system. Some people aren't going to be happy unless everyone is doing exactly the same thing, regardless of abilities or how it is set up. If it's different than the general population, some people are going to complain.  

OP, I really like your proposed change to the DAS system. We tried out Disney's version with our son the third day it was operational at Disneyland for the long four-day weekend. One of the biggest issues I had, even with *lots* of planning (we know DL and DCA very well), was that there was a ton of extra walking. I was fortunate to have a "runner" for the kiosks, but everyone noticed it. I also felt that some adjustment should be given for the extremely long fast pass lines we waited in AFTER waiting our standby time on the DAS. It was a very busy weekend, and many were over 25 minutes. DS can't handle those, and we were forced to leave a couple and wait to the side while the rest of the party went through the line. We also ran into a couple of problems with him not wanting to do the ride when the time finally came. OPs solution would help with this.


----------



## mistysue

I like how this thread has generally stayed positive, but I want to add something.
I think it is short sighted that as soon as somebody says "this has abuse potential" some are just tossing us aside as complaining about the disabled, stubborn, self-centered or inconsiderate. The only negative comments I have seen have been the defensive ones about people who don't agree with the proposed system.

We can disagree about something without either of us being heartless. Having a different view does not equate to the other person having no clue what they are talking about. 

I think the abuse potential as well as the reasons that the DAS does not cover all of every single person's needs have both been pointed out and it behooves us to make an attempt to sympathize with varying views, regardless of whether they benefit us personally. It seems that both sides of this argument owe it to ourselves to at least spend a moment in all of this imagining somebody else's shoes before taking subtle jabs at anyone.


----------



## Sunnywho

mistysue said:


> It seems that both sides of this argument owe it to ourselves to at least spend a moment in all of this imagining somebody else's shoes before taking subtle jabs at anyone.


Here is the "spoon theory" explanation of how hidden disabilities like lupus or MS affect a person. It would be nice if any tweaks to the DAS takes the needs of "spoonies" into account. Back before the GAC was a DAS, it was a SAP. These diagnoses were on the automatic SAP list. 

http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/wpress/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/

The rigmarole of getting the DAS signed, going away, and coming back would over the course of the day take away a few more "spoons" than the proposed flipped wait.


----------



## curemyreed

aaarcher86 said:


> I kind of wonder he same thing. I imagine Disney did their homework on this. I wonder if they based it off of WDW and how the theme parks in Florida operate over California. And perhaps,they wanted to keep the same system at both places to lessen confusion.



I agree that as a corporation it would make sense to have the system be the same throughout. Not sure if the changes implemented were at Disney parks worldwide.


----------



## OurBigTrip

AndreaA said:


> I believe you misunderstood my point.  I believe that you would hypothetically rather have everything worse for everyone as long as it's equal than have things hypothetically improve for everyone with the side effect that things are slightly unequal, favoring the disabled.  Let's face it; nothing is ever going to be equal.  It's either going to favor the majority or the minority.  Clearly you prefer that favor to go towards the majority, while at the same time professing that it's "equal".
> 
> And once again, in the proposed system, the disabled people ARE WAITING.  They're just waiting after the ride instead of before it.  They are waiting before their next ride.  They are not just merrily skipping from one FP queue to the next.  If line time equalty is your goal - which it should be - then you should have no problem with the proposed system, especially not if it also included adding ride time and even an "average travel time" to the blackout time.  Did you even read my post about how the proposed system will likely cut down on people riding "extra" rides during their wait, which is currently possible with the DAS system?  So technically the proposed system would have disabled people riding fewer rides than the DAS system.  But really, I feel like your issue isn't one of equality, it's one of stubbornness.  You don't just want people to have to wait their turn.  You want them to be waiting right along side you - in spirit if not in the flesh - and that just strikes me as petty.  So they're waiting 50min to ride Buzz Lightyear instead of 50 minutes to ride Space Mountain.  Is that really such a big deal to you?  You'll still both be entering the Buzz line at about the same time.



I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm dead set against the proposal in the OP.  I would prefer that Disney stay with the DAS as designed, with tweaks made for people that have to wait for accessible rides and are essentially waiting longer, sometimes much longer, than anyone else.  The proposal to wait after and not before does open up increased possibilities of abuse, but it's still head and shoulders above the GAC.

So long as Disney doesn't go back to a GAC style system, and keeps a system that enforces wait times for ALL guests, I'll be happy with it.


----------



## curemyreed

mistysue said:


> I know pre-release of the new system there was a lot of discussion about them trying to keep both parks the same.
> On the boards we know how different they are, but a lot of people think they are essentially the same park. I suspect they want to cut down on angry people when they cross coasts and have to adapt on arrival.



I agree. Plenty of people don't research prior to going to a Disney park. (Hard for us DISboard planners to wrap our heads around!) If I knew the system to be one way and then went to another Disney park and it was significantly different that might be hard.


----------



## mistysue

Sunnywho said:
			
		

> Here is the "spoon theory" explanation of how hidden disabilities like lupus or MS affect a person. It would be nice if any tweaks to the DAS takes the needs of "spoonies" into account. Back before the GAC was a DAS, it was a SAP. These diagnoses were on the automatic SAP list.
> 
> http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/wpress/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
> 
> The rigmarole of getting the DAS signed, going away, and coming back would over the course of the day take away a few more "spoons" than the proposed flipped wait.


That's cute, thanks for sharing. I agree that going away cant work for all. My concern is with those who would take the immediate access because they can rather than because they need it.


----------



## curemyreed

AndreaA said:


> I think a lot will depend on the feedback they are getting from guests, as well as how many "extras" they are currently giving to people with more serious needs.  It seems as though special passes are currently being given out to people who do not understand the concept of waiting and likely never will.  It also seems like with the proposed system, that would not be so necessary.  Dawdling from one ride to the next in order to eat up the wait time is a heck of a lot easier than having to either split up and send a DAS runner over to a completely different area or, worse yet, risk getting closer to the ride which could trigger that "need to ride" mental state.  Surely being able to keep more people sticking to the "standard plan" would be much easier than having to decide who really needs the extra passes and having people argue because they've seen x number of people using those special passes and they want one too.



I so hope they will give credence to guest feedback and make changes as needed. My experience is that Disney does a ton of customer surveys. I have easily done 10 in the last 5 years. That leads me to believe they do care to provide the best they can.

I do have a concern that establishing two new systems simultaneously at WDW---the DAS implementation and the current testing of the FP+ system---may have Disney spread too thin. I worry that there are less people paying attention to problems, glitches, etc. Does this concern you?


----------



## AndreaA

curemyreed said:


> I do have a concern that establishing two new systems simultaneously at WDW---the DAS implementation and the current testing of the FP+ system---may have Disney spread too thin. I worry that there are less people paying attention to problems, glitches, etc. Does this concern you?



It absolutely concerns me.  For one thing, people - including Disney CMs keep encouraging those with DAS to take full advantage of FP and FP+ as if that will solve any extra issues.  Except many people who need a DAS cannot plan far enough in advance to use FP+, and regular FP is going away.  Add into that, the fact that people are reporting extreme difficulty getting same day FP+ and now the disabled guests are at a distinct disadvantage.  Now one would hope that same day FP+ would be easier to get once the legacy system is gone, but we really have no idea.  For all we know, 80% of FPs will be dedicated to pre-booking, with only 20% held for same day access.  Can you imagine how fast they would go??


----------



## SueM in MN

mistysue said:


> I like how this thread has generally stayed positive, but I want to add something.
> I think it is short sighted that as soon as somebody says "this has abuse potential" some are just tossing us aside as complaining about the disabled, stubborn, self-centered or inconsiderate. The only negative comments I have seen have been the defensive ones about people who don't agree with the proposed system.
> 
> We can disagree about something without either of us being heartless. Having a different view does not equate to the other person having no clue what they are talking about.
> 
> I think the abuse potential as well as the reasons that the DAS does not cover all of every single person's needs have both been pointed out and it behooves us to make an attempt to sympathize with varying views, regardless of whether they benefit us personally. It seems that both sides of this argument owe it to ourselves to at least spend a moment in all of this imagining somebody else's shoes before taking subtle jabs at anyone.


I think this may be good point to end this thread - while it is still mostly positive.
I will leave it open for a while, but it probably will close soon.

There is very little new occurring over 25 pages. There are people who agree with the OP and people who don't. 
Many of the people who agree with the OP think it would cut down on walking and like the idea of being able to go to an attraction and ride right away.

Many of the people who don't agree are not saying they want to keep people with disabilities exactly equal, but see a possible big issue with abuse if the wait is after rather than before - people who are wanting to 'scam the system' could go on an attraction with a short wait time so they have a short 'black out period' before going on an attraction with a long standby line. 
I think this is a real possibility; apparently some dont.

One of the issues that made Disney look at changing the GAC in the first place was the huge number if guests with GACS showing up at Radiator Springs Racers at DL and expecting to ride right away. As a result of that situation, Disney  started giving out Return Time tickets at that attraction. 
I don't see that the OP's suggestion does anything to address that and (I think) would make matters worse because the propose change would tell people that they are expected to come and ride right away, then wait after. 
So, what happens when the ride gets overloaded and not everyone can get in with no wait?

This says nothing about whether or how disabled the people are, just that there are too many to be all taken care of at the same time.

The OP hasn't answered this and I don't really think 25 more pages is going yo change anyone's mind from one side to the other.


----------



## curemyreed

AndreaA said:


> It absolutely concerns me.  For one thing, people - including Disney CMs keep encouraging those with DAS to take full advantage of FP and FP+ as if that will solve any extra issues.  Except many people who need a DAS cannot plan far enough in advance to use FP+, and regular FP is going away.  Add into that, the fact that people are reporting extreme difficulty getting same day FP+ and now the disabled guests are at a distinct disadvantage.  Now one would hope that same day FP+ would be easier to get once the legacy system is gone, but we really have no idea.  For all we know, 80% of FPs will be dedicated to pre-booking, with only 20% held for same day access.  Can you imagine how fast they would go??



Yes, those are all things I have thought about, too. I wish that we could have adapted to one change and then the other instead of both at the same time. In the case of our family, we use more than 3 FP's a day as there were always plenty to be had early in the day and park hop more days than not. The mental gymnastics involved in figuring out how to make a vacation work taking DD's needs/differences into account is exhausting and now it's harder. I stopped making ADR's because that just added too much into the mix. The times when I have been able to take a Disney vacation just me & DH or alone with one of my non-disabled children have been so different. I get a glimpse at how relaxing it is for the average Disney vacationer. And I am grateful for the chance to experience that from time-to-time.


----------



## SueM in MN

aaarcher86 said:


> I kind of wonder he same thing. I imagine Disney did their homework on this. I wonder if they based it off of WDW and how the theme parks in Florida operate over California. And perhaps,they wanted to keep the same system at both places to lessen confusion.


I think they did want go keep the system the same on both coasts.

I also think they did their homework. Although many people think Disney just pulled this all out since The story of the rich people hiring disabled tour guides earlier in 2013, Disney has been working on this for a long time (from what I know, about 2 years, maybe more). 

There are differences in park attendance at different parks that may impact how they can handle guests with disabilities. Here's a list of estimated park attendance for 2012 for the  25 most attended theme parks in the world. Disney has the top 8 spots and 3 others in the top 20. 

*1. Magic Kingdom: 17,536,000 *(+2.3% change)
*2. Disneyland Park: 15,963,000* (-1.1% )
3. Tokyo Disneyland: 14,847,000 (+8.5%)
4. Tokyo Disney Sea: 12,656,000 (+8.5%)
5. Disneyland Park, Disneyland Paris: 11,200,000 (+1.9%)
*6. Epcot: 11,063,000* (+2.2%)
*7. Disneys Animal Kingdom: 9,998,000* (+2.2%)
*8. Disneys Hollywood Studios: 9,912,000* (+2.2%)
9. Universal Studios Japan: 9,700,000 (+14.1%)
10. Islands of Adventure: 7,981,000 (+4%)
*11. Disney California Adventure: 7,775,000* (+22.6%)
12. Ocean Park (Hong Kong): 7, 436,000 (+6.9%)
13. Everland (South Korea): 6,853,000 (+4.3%)
14. Hong Kong Disneyland: 6,700,000 (+13.6%)
15. Lotte World (South Korea): 6,383,000 (10.4%)
16. Universal Studios Orlando: 6,195,000 (+2.5%)
17. Universal Studios Hollywood: 5,912,000 (+15%)
18. Nagashima Spa Land (Japan): 5,850,000 (+.5%)
19. Sea World Orlando: 5,358,000 (+3.0%)
20. Walt Disney Studios Park, Disneyland Paris: 4,800,000 (1.9%)
21. Europa Park (Germany): 4,600,000 (+2.2%)
22. Sea World California: 4,4000,000 (+3.5%)
23. Busch Gardens Tampa Bay: 4,348,000 (+1.5%)
24. De Efteling (Netherlands): 4,200,000 (+1.8%)
25. Oct East (China): 4,196,000 (+7.9%)

http://thedisneyblog.com/2013/06/06/global-themepark-attendance-for-2012-via-tea-report/

And, then, there are the attractions themselves. Each Disney park has a couple of 'headliner' attractions that normally attract large crowds and have long waits.
I don't know that dome of the parks that people are saying use the system the OP suggests have that same situation. 
In a case where most attractions have similar demand and similar waits, it doesn't matter much whether guests wait before or after riding - because the wait will be the same before or after, there is little incentive for anyone to try to scam the system.
In a case where some attractions have large demand (like Toy Story Midway Mania) and others usually have little wait (like Imagination, which is usually as fast as guests can walk in) there is potential for abuse, at the expense of guests who really need assistance. A system that offered immediate entry would soon end up like the GAC or similar),


----------



## KPeveler

curemyreed said:


> I so hope they will give credence to guest feedback and make changes as needed. My experience is that Disney does a ton of customer surveys. I have easily done 10 in the last 5 years. That leads me to believe they do care to provide the best they can.
> 
> I do have a concern that establishing two new systems simultaneously at WDW---the DAS implementation and the current testing of the FP+ system---may have Disney spread too thin. I worry that there are less people paying attention to problems, glitches, etc. Does this concern you?



I can tell you that though DL does not have FP+ yet (nor will for between 2 and 5 years depending on who you ask), they are trying to implement two new systems - the DAS and the wheelchair return times.  This is not an issue in DCA, but in DL, there are somewhere between 9 and 13 attractions that have or can have a WC Return Ticket.  They started with 9, and may add or subtract attractions based on wait times, time of year, etc.  This may not sound like much, but they are the top 9 attractions, and 5 are all on one side of the park (with all you can do while waiting for your return time with a stand-by queue I am allowed in with my wc be Winnie the Pooh).  It is really stretching the CMs thin, and not every attraction that has it is equipped to handle both WC RT and DAS RT.  Some really do manage to make sure DAS gets priority when a returnee line forms, some simply do not have the ability - it was hard enough for some attractions to figure out how to make an accessible queue!

I still hold that the instant access with the wait afterwards will end up causing more abuse, for exactly the reasons I explained earlier in the thread.  I even laid out a 5 hour trip in the park where I would get on 8 attractions, 4 of them E-ticket rides, with a total stand-by time of 4 hours and 40 minutes....  But I would not actually wait that long if I had instant access.  All I need to do is pair a short wait before a long one, and I am good - I even had time for lunch and bathroom breaks in my schedule.

Also, if it becomes known that you can go right in with a DAS, and "wait after," then you have a MUCH higher percentage of people wanting to abuse the system.  People either lying or exaggerating their needs will get the card, and use it only on E-ticket rides, then wait the in the regular stand-by for shorter waits until they are "allowed" in again.  The only way to stop it would be for it to be used in conjunction with the RFID system where each person in the party entering the ride "immediately" with the DAS was scanned, and each and every person going on every single ride had to scan their Magic Band (which does not exist in DL) going into every single other ride, so as to weed out the people who are still "waiting."

While they need to alter the system, to allow for the fact that we wait once we arrive at the attraction, especially in a standard FP line, having people wait before going on is what is keeping a lot of the abusers away. 

Of course some people still will lie and cheat - that will always happen.  But anything that sends a person right into a FP line with the assumption they will be good people and not get in another line until their wait is up will be abused much more readily, in my opinion.


----------



## KPeveler

Mom2six said:


> We do smart planning.  We go on recommended days, get there as early as we can, and have a touring plan.  It is not enough to allow my son to go on rides.  I agree everyone shouldn't be able to get the same accommodations- it should be based on true need.  I do wish that proof could be used because I sure would bring it and support having to prove the disability.



The problem with proof being needed is two-fold.  One is that the law was not written by or for Disney, it was written for everywhere.  And I certainly do not want to have to carry papers with me proving I really do need my wheelchair.  

The second problem is bigger, and I am NOT inviting debate on this topic, as it will entirely derail the thread.  There problem is this:

What is "true need?"  And who decides?  

The government?  The person with no medical knowledge working at Disney?   Whatever doctor wrote the note?  

That would require a "ranking" of disability, judging "who is worse" and "who is bad enough."  Well what if I, as the decider of "true need" (and who knows, I may be hired in just such a capacity one day) decide that my need as a person with a rare genetic disorder, who requires extremely strong pain medication even to get up every day, who will always use a wheelchair, "outranks" your child.  I certainly do not want some stranger getting to say "Her disease is worse than your child's disease."  

That is the idea behind the one system - because no one wants to play the "who is worse" game.  There is NO WAY to compare my daily experience to a child with profound autism.  It is like comparing apples and moon rocks.  They are not even from the same planet.  

Does that mean the DAS is perfect, and works for everyone?  No, of course not.  I have used it many times on many days with many different crowd levels and I will be the first to admit, it had problems.  I am not convinced it should be the system the OP is proposing, but it *does *need to be tweaked.  Perhaps with more time reduced, 20 minutes instead of 10, or even 30 for some attractions.  I believe that it should be 20 minutes removed for travel and wait time.  And I know some lines are longer than the 20 minutes, but some are shorter, so that will help.

I also believe that any ride with a wait of *less than* 30 minutes, a person with a DAS should not need a return time, but be allowed to get in any stand-by alternate entry/FP line that is there.  A person with a return time would get priority over any returnee line.  Once a wait time hits 30 minutes, then a return time is needed.

The reason the system is so constricted now, with such short allowances being made is because it is easier to give than to take back.  Can you imagine what would happen if they had originally allowed for 30 minutes removed from the stand-by time and then reduced that to 20???  

It is easier for them to say "You can get a second return time, so long as the first return time has arrived" than to try that in the beginning and have to take it away.

Yes, the system WILL be tweaked.  And Disney did a lot of research on this before putting it out there (though I think roll-out was rushed due to the news coverage).  But it is MUCH easier to give ground than to need to scale back what was being given out.

In fact, legally speaking, it may be tricky to remove accommodation once it is out there.


----------



## cmwade77

I just want to say that I just got back from the parks.

Since I had to renew my DAS, I spent a moment and asked about my concerns with the system. 
somehow they managed to fix the waiting when returning. She did tell me that they ate definitely looking for feedback right now and are trying to make changes, most of which are on the backend at the moment, to where you might not know what they are doing, only seeing the results. 

 Everywhere we went only had about 5-10 minute waits when you returned, even racers. This is a huge improvement over what it was. 

They also clearly stated that if you have a DAS and go back to a ride like Pirates, you  essentially have a FP for the accessible queue. This is apparently the new official policy. This is true no matter if you also have a wheelchair or not, as you have already waited your turn. 

As for attractions near closing at DLR, they would like you to leave enough time tobe able to get from the kiosk to the attraction 5 minutes before closing and they will simply make the return time for 5 minutes before closing. Is it a perfect solution? No, but it is better and this is now the official policy. 

They are aware of the extra traveling issue and are working to add more kiosks, but don't have the manpower right now. Apparently most of the guest Relations CMs at DLR are working 13+ hour shifts, six days a week just to try to provide enough manpower. So, if you live in Southern California and are looking for a job, I would think applying to work in GR at DLR would be an easy job to get right now. 

The takeaway is that they ARE listening and trying to make improvements. But they are also overworked right now at DLR, so please remember to be patient with them and they are only doing their job as instructed. That being said, if something is clearly not right, ask for a lead or manager. 

Bottom line to me is if they can fix the issues, I don't care if they use my idea in the original post or not. All I ask is that the system be as equal as possible to those that don't need assistance. I think they are trying to get there and I do give them credit for that.


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## aubriee

OurBigTrip said:


> Disney is providing equal access, which is all they are required to do.  There is no doubt that many people don't like the new system, precisely because it is equal access.  For way too long, too many people were accustomed to privileged access, and Disney is, and rightly so IMO, doing their best to take that away.



[/QUOTE]It's not so much in this thread, but I've seen a slew of complaints from people who are unhappy about having to wait before they can go into the FP line. There's also a lot of criticism saying their children don't have the cognitive ability to understand why they can't do something immediately like they have before, but this thread has really kind of turned into more of a discussion on added waits for the accessible/alternate entrance lines.[/QUOTE]



OurBigTrip said:


> The DAS isn't nearly as broken as the GAC was.
> 
> And whether you want to acknowledge it or not, being able to ride attractions with little to no wait, as many times as they want to, again, with no wait IS better access than non-GAC guests were getting.



I didn't really have alot of feelings about this one way or the other, other than feeling like everyone should have to wait the approximate same times.  If the handicapped got on just a little faster than the nonhandicapped, no big deal.  However, shortly after the DAS was announced I read a post on here from an irate mother who said there was absolutely no way the DAS would work for her son.  She went on to say that he had a horrible life 51 weeks out of the year and he dang sure should get better access at WDW because of it.  She said they always used a GAC to go straight through the fast pass lines and that they looped rides over and over because that's what he liked to do. She went on to say that anyone that said the GAC was not an almost unlimited front of the line pass was lying because they had been using it that way for years.  Quite a few people were shocked at her entitlement attitude and called her on it, asking if she honestly thought it was fair that their "unlimited fast pass" that allowed them to ride the same ride over and over and over while other kids were waiting to ride it once was fair.  She said she thought it was, he deserved it, they had absolutely no guilt for doing it and just couldn't seem to understand why others would have a problem with it.  She just kept using the excuse that her poor son had a rough life the 51 weeks out of the year they weren't at WDW, so he deserved the preferred treatment at WDW and if anyone waiting while they did their looping had a problem with it, they were the ones in the wrong for not having compassion for what her son went through the other 51 weeks of the year.  The moderators round up closing that thread, but she immediately opened another one, ranting that she just couldn't understand why other people would have a problem waiting while her son basically got to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, even if it meant other children had to wait two hours to ride the same ride he was riding over and over with no waits.  Her posts and entitlement attitude made me see what alot of the problems were WDW was wanting to fix.  Having a disabled kid shouldn't make having other nondisabled kids wait longer and that is what was happening with the old GAC.  People were abusing it (some scum bag nondisabled guests, but also some who were honestly disabled too).  It had to be changed.  The disabled shouldn't have to wait longer, but they also don't deserve much better access either.  Even if WDW could require a doctor's note, there are too many doctors who would write one anytime someone requested one.  Heck, I work at a hospital and have access to those doctor release forms.  I would never do it, but could write one for myself if I wanted.  I don't know what the answer is, but think WDW is doing their best to make things more equal for all their guests (and yes that means the disabled have to wait, just like the able guests).  I had never thought about the fact that interpreters were not available for every show.  That's wrong.  The poster who reads sign language should not have to wait for only certain shows on a given day.  She should have access to the same shows that the rest of us do.  The handicapped should not have to do a bunch of extra walking to get and use a DAS either.  That's not fair or equal, but at the same time jumping right on a ride and looping it repeatedly, while others are having to wait 60 minutes for that same ride wasn't right either, and in other threads that is what some people have said they *must* have.  Everyone should have to wait approximately the same time and that means that yes sometimes the handicapped may get on faster but at other times they may have to wait a little longer.


----------



## Paula Sedley-Burke

The more I think about it the more I think with a few amendments DAS current system is ok for folks like me that cannot wait in line but can reason this. As a hopeful DAS user I will be just grateful that Disney doesn't make me wait in line as I can't so would miss the ride. I suffer from exhaustion so can only do half days but that's my cross to carry. I am sure every family has some hurdle. The only thing I would change is I think the travel party should be named on the DAS to stop abuse ( so you name the people you are with ) and I don't know if this DAS return time works for Autism. I understand my physical limitations and can reason. 

So I am happy with the system for me. I will get less rides than with GAC but least it puts me in the same boat as everyone else! I will plan more and am fortunate to stay on world and hopefully use FP + I appreciate not all are.

It must be so hard to devise a system that suits a lot of needs!


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## Schmeck

Sunnywho said:


> Here is the "spoon theory" explanation of how hidden disabilities like lupus or MS affect a person. It would be nice if any tweaks to the DAS takes the needs of "spoonies" into account. Back before the GAC was a DAS, it was a SAP. These diagnoses were on the automatic SAP list.
> 
> http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/wpress/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
> 
> The rigmarole of getting the DAS signed, going away, and coming back would over the course of the day take away a few more "spoons" than the proposed flipped wait.



At WDW, there is no need to 'go away', as the podium to get the DAS time is at the ride attraction. You can wait right there if you want to. 

Also, for endurance issues (like using up your spoons) Disney suggests using a wheelchair or ECV.


----------



## AndreaA

KPeveler said:


> Also, if it becomes known that you can go right in with a DAS, and "wait after," then you have a MUCH higher percentage of people wanting to abuse the system.  People either lying or exaggerating their needs will get the card, and use it only on E-ticket rides, then wait the in the regular stand-by for shorter waits until they are "allowed" in again.  The only way to stop it would be for it to be used in conjunction with the RFID system where each person in the party entering the ride "immediately" with the DAS was scanned, and each and every person going on every single ride had to scan their Magic Band (which does not exist in DL) going into every single other ride, so as to weed out the people who are still "waiting."



But isn't this exactly what the DAS does as well?  
Under DAS:
1pm, go to Dumbo get a fifteen minute wait (for a 25min standby line)
1:15, ride Dumbo and walk to SpaceMtn (15min total)
1:30, get to SpaceMtn 80min return time (for a 90min wait)
1:30 -  2:50, I go ride Buzz, Carousel of Progress and People Mover.  
2:50, I go ride SpaceMtn wait in a 15min FP line, get out at 3:10
And that is what Disney TELLS YOU to do.  You are supposed to use the wait time anyway you please, including other attractions.

Under the proposed system, 
1pm, ride and have a 25min blackout time (no time subtracted since they don't have to account for travel or FP line time) and walk to SpaceMtn (20min total because there was  5min FP line)
1:20 get to SpaceMtn. hang around for 5min
1:25 ride SpaceMtn with 15min FP line and receive a 90min blackout.  
1:45 - 3:15 I go ride Buzz, and Carousel of Progress and PeopleMover
Now I'm free to go ride something else using my DAS card since my blackout ended while riding PeopleMover.

Unless my timing is off, I'm honestly not seeing an advantage for the proposed system.  Obviously I'm sure that some sneaky people could figure out how to work the times just right, but they could do that just as easily with the current system.


----------



## disney david

KPeveler said:


> I can tell you that though DL does not have FP+ yet (nor will for between 2 and 5 years depending on who you ask), they are trying to implement two new systems - the DAS and the wheelchair return times.  This is not an issue in DCA, but in DL, there are somewhere between 9 and 13 attractions that have or can have a WC Return Ticket.  They started with 9, and may add or subtract attractions based on wait times, time of year, etc.  This may not sound like much, but they are the top 9 attractions, and 5 are all on one side of the park (with all you can do while waiting for your return time with a stand-by queue I am allowed in with my wc be Winnie the Pooh).  It is really stretching the CMs thin, and not every attraction that has it is equipped to handle both WC RT and DAS RT.  Some really do manage to make sure DAS gets priority when a returnee line forms, some simply do not have the ability - it was hard enough for some attractions to figure out how to make an accessible queue!
> 
> I still hold that the instant access with the wait afterwards will end up causing more abuse, for exactly the reasons I explained earlier in the thread.  I even laid out a 5 hour trip in the park where I would get on 8 attractions, 4 of them E-ticket rides, with a total stand-by time of 4 hours and 40 minutes....  But I would not actually wait that long if I had instant access.  All I need to do is pair a short wait before a long one, and I am good - I even had time for lunch and bathroom breaks in my schedule.
> 
> Also, if it becomes known that you can go right in with a DAS, and "wait after," then you have a MUCH higher percentage of people wanting to abuse the system.  People either lying or exaggerating their needs will get the card, and use it only on E-ticket rides, then wait the in the regular stand-by for shorter waits until they are "allowed" in again.  The only way to stop it would be for it to be used in conjunction with the RFID system where each person in the party entering the ride "immediately" with the DAS was scanned, and each and every person going on every single ride had to scan their Magic Band (which does not exist in DL) going into every single other ride, so as to weed out the people who are still "waiting."
> 
> While they need to alter the system, to allow for the fact that we wait once we arrive at the attraction, especially in a standard FP line, having people wait before going on is what is keeping a lot of the abusers away.
> 
> Of course some people still will lie and cheat - that will always happen.  But anything that sends a person right into a FP line with the assumption they will be good people and not get in another line until their wait is up will be abused much more readily, in my opinion.



The reason it take them awhile to get fast pass plus is the ques in Disney land will all have to be redone. And made to be main streamed and add a que for fast pass. Plus it going to take them a very long time to train the front gate cms on how to actually so their job and then how to use RFID. I found them to be the rudest and worst cms in any Disney parks. So it could take 2-5 just to get a proper front gate cm like wdw has.


----------



## Vidia2

KPeveler said:


> In fact, legally speaking, it may be tricky to remove accommodation once it is out there.



It would be interesting to know how this applies to the removal of the GAC as an accommodation.  Of course it's been replaced with another system but one that does not give the same level of accommodation.  This is being explored by people who know more about ADA laws than I do so I look forward to seeing what path they take. 

There is some legal precedent for having accommodations reinstated because of the "taking away" issue.


----------



## aaarcher86

Vidia2 said:


> It would be interesting to know how this applies to the removal of the GAC as an accommodation.  Of course it's been replaced with another system but one that does not give the same level of accommodation.  This is being explored by people who know more about ADA laws than I do so I look forward to seeing what path they take.  There is some legal precedent for having accommodations reinstated because of the "taking away" issue.



Immediate entrance into a que isn't an accommodation. Not having to physically wait in a lengthy line is. They didn't take away the accommodation, simply how it's implemented. There are many factors looked at when changes like this are made; cost, overall flow of the park, etc. The ADA not force a company to bring something back if it's to the detriment of running that company, but again, the accommodation itself is still in place. 

I have no doubt in my mind Disney's legal team has gone through any and all changed with a fine tooth comb. They wouldn't put for a park wide change without being positive that they are within their legal rights to do so.


----------



## Vidia2

aaarcher86 said:


> Immediate entrance into a que isn't an accommodation. Not having to physically wait in a lengthy line is. They didn't take away the accommodation, simply how it's implemented. There are many factors looked at when changes like this are made; cost, overall flow of the park, etc. The ADA not force a company to bring something back if it's to the detriment of running that company, but again, the accommodation itself is still in place.  I have no doubt in my mind Disney's legal team has gone through any and all changed with a fine tooth comb. They wouldn't put for a park wide change without being positive that they are within their legal rights to do so.


  Looking forward to what the experts find out.  As I mentioned before there is legal precedent for this same type of issue.  At any rate, NONE of these issues will be decided on this forum.  Our opinions of how and why the ADA works is completely for info/entertainment value in this forum.  Disney is not going to change (or not) anything based on what opinion someone voices on a discussion board. It's all just venting here.

There have been cases in which Disney has been forced to change their accommodations for certain disabilities.  Was their legal team inept? No. They were just trying to do the least accommodation that they could get away with.  They are a business and not infallible.


----------



## aaarcher86

Vidia2 said:


> Looking forward to what the experts find out.  As I mentioned before there is legal precedent for this same type of issue.  At any rate, NONE of these issues will be decided on this forum.  Our opinions of how and why the ADA works is completely for info/entertainment value in this forum.  Disney is not going to change (or not) anything based on what opinion someone voices on a discussion board. It's all just venting here.



Who are these 'experts?'


----------



## Vidia2

aaarcher86 said:


> Who are these 'experts?'



Judges in a court of law. Disney doesn't care for your opinion or mine regarding our interpretation of the ADA.


----------



## aaarcher86

Vidia2 said:


> Judges in a court of law. Disney doesn't care for your opinion or mine regarding our interpretation of the ADA.



I highly doubt judges in a court of law are randomly looking into this whatsoever. I was assuming you meant someone was actually checking into this legally. Before a judge even sees it someone has to gather information to present a case.


----------



## richflour

KPeveler said:
			
		

> The problem with proof being needed is two-fold.  One is that the law was not written by or for Disney, it was written for everywhere.  And I certainly do not want to have to carry papers with me proving I really do need my wheelchair.
> 
> The second problem is bigger, and I am NOT inviting debate on this topic, as it will entirely derail the thread.  There problem is this:
> 
> What is "true need?"  And who decides?
> 
> The government?  The person with no medical knowledge working at Disney?   Whatever doctor wrote the note?
> 
> That would require a "ranking" of disability, judging "who is worse" and "who is bad enough."  Well what if I, as the decider of "true need" (and who knows, I may be hired in just such a capacity one day) decide that my need as a person with a rare genetic disorder, who requires extremely strong pain medication even to get up every day, who will always use a wheelchair, "outranks" your child.  I certainly do not want some stranger getting to say "Her disease is worse than your child's disease."
> 
> That is the idea behind the one system - because no one wants to play the "who is worse" game.  There is NO WAY to compare my daily experience to a child with profound autism.  It is like comparing apples and moon rocks.  They are not even from the same planet.
> 
> Does that mean the DAS is perfect, and works for everyone?  No, of course not.  I have used it many times on many days with many different crowd levels and I will be the first to admit, it had problems.  I am not convinced it should be the system the OP is proposing, but it does need to be tweaked.  Perhaps with more time reduced, 20 minutes instead of 10, or even 30 for some attractions.  I believe that it should be 20 minutes removed for travel and wait time.  And I know some lines are longer than the 20 minutes, but some are shorter, so that will help.
> 
> I also believe that any ride with a wait of less than 30 minutes, a person with a DAS should not need a return time, but be allowed to get in any stand-by alternate entry/FP line that is there.  A person with a return time would get priority over any returnee line.  Once a wait time hits 30 minutes, then a return time is needed.
> 
> The reason the system is so constricted now, with such short allowances being made is because it is easier to give than to take back.  Can you imagine what would happen if they had originally allowed for 30 minutes removed from the stand-by time and then reduced that to 20???
> 
> It is easier for them to say "You can get a second return time, so long as the first return time has arrived" than to try that in the beginning and have to take it away.
> 
> Yes, the system WILL be tweaked.  And Disney did a lot of research on this before putting it out there (though I think roll-out was rushed due to the news coverage).  But it is MUCH easier to give ground than to need to scale back what was being given out.
> 
> In fact, legally speaking, it may be tricky to remove accommodation once it is out there.



You have to carry proof to park in a handicap parking space?


----------



## Schmeck

Vidia2 said:


> It would be interesting to know how this applies to the removal of the GAC as an accommodation.  Of course it's been replaced with another system but one that does not give the same level of accommodation.  This is being explored by people who know more about ADA laws than I do so I look forward to seeing what path they take.
> 
> There is some legal precedent for having accommodations reinstated because of the "taking away" issue.



The GAC was not an accommodation. It was a tool used by CMs at the attractions so that a guest would not have to explain an issue over and over again, and the CM would not have to make a judgement call.  There were accommodations listed on the GAC, but the GAC itself has no legal standing as an accommodation. It was a communication tool. Disney still makes accommodations, just not by way of the GAC. 

Please show me the link to the legal precedent? If anything, the 'unlimited FP'-like access was in violation of the ADA, because it offered a group, based on a disability, to benefit from a privilege not afforded to the general public. That's illegal, according to the ADA.


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## aaarcher86

richflour said:


> You have to carry proof to park in a handicap parking space?



You have to have a handicap placard but it doesn't go into what the disability itself is.


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## richflour

aaarcher86 said:
			
		

> You have to have a handicap placard but it doesn't go into what the disability itself is.



To get the card you have to take to the dmv a letter from your physisian on what your disabilty is.


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## richflour

This discussion is pointless . The people with disabilties that feel a sense of entiltement are only looking for support to "feel good " about using their disabilty to gain an unfair advantage! 
The GAS is here to stay .
 Sorry to disappoint.


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## Vidia2

aaarcher86 said:


> I highly doubt judges in a court of law are randomly looking into this whatsoever. I was assuming you meant someone was actually checking into this legally. Before a judge even sees it someone has to gather information to present a case.



There are attorneys looking into it but judges will ultimately decide.

The law isn't based on opinion, but precedent weighs very heavily, fortunately.

These legal issues aren't really my concern but it's interesting to watch, in contrast to all of the internet "experts".

I'm happy with the new system or the old system. There will be complaints from the same people here (the anti-gac crowd) once they figure out that the new system isn't actually doing anything to shorten the standby line, unless you're listening to the accounts of some disgruntled castmembers.

It's all just talk here and has nothing to do with why there were changes made or why there will be more. It makes no difference whatsoever how many times these points get argued.


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## Schmeck

One precedent set by the courts in California is the Segway issue - a very strong judgement for Disney and the access they have to provide.


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## cmwade77

Schmeck said:
			
		

> The GAC was not an accommodation. It was a tool used by CMs at the attractions so that a guest would not have to explain an issue over and over again, and the CM would not have to make a judgement call.
> 
> Please show me the link to the legal precedent? If anything, the 'unlimited FP'-like access was in violation of the ADA, because it offered a group, based on a disability, to benefit from a privilege not afforded to the general public. That's illegal, according to the ADA.



No, actually that's not illegal, but when it's a benefit not afforded to the general public, they can ask for proof, as long as there is another system in place that provides the same level of access as other guests could get. 

Technically, Disney could keep the DAS in place and bring back the GAC with unlimited FPs and require proof for it. The problem is many people on all sides of the issue would find this unfair and as stated before, there will be many doctors who would simply write a note, even if the person didn't need it. Please note I am NOT in favor of doing this, nor do I think that Disney would ever consider it. I am simply pointing out that this would most likely be legal to do.


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## Vidia2

richflour said:


> This discussion is pointless . The people with disabilties that feel a sense of entiltement are only looking for support to "feel good " about using their disabilty to gain an unfair advantage! The GAS is here to stay . Sorry to disappoint.



No one with a handicapped family member is expecting to find support on this forum.  Many of us are happy to work within whatever system Disney presents.


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## mistysue

richflour said:


> You have to carry proof to park in a handicap parking space?



It is a GIANT step to go from getting a sign to hang on your car mirror to every person with any disability carrying around papers to prove their condition all the time. Nazi Germany anyone?

Unless everybody carried around medical papers all the time then in this particular case we are also looking at people not bringing something because they don't know.  How does that work when somebody paralyzed in a wheelchair can't use the accessible vehicle because they don't have a sheet of paper? Meanwhile random pediatrician writes Mrs. X a note that all of her kids can't wait in line so they get a special pass?

Disabilities (non-physical especially) are not as cut and dry as people want them to be. There are not huge lines we can draw to say something like autistic= needs assistance, not autistic = no assistance. There are many people who even get contradicting diagnoses from doctors. I had a 9 year old who couldn't say the alphabet, use a phone or have a conversation more than 2 lines long... but my pediatrician said she was fine (pediatrician shortage in the area, I'm not just a moron). It took years of trying to get her into specialists and getting brain scans to get somebody to step back and say "hey, something is going on here" I think it's fabulous that as a society we have arranged that people can work on face value of "tell me your needs, not what you have been titled."
It makes little sense to assume that every person issued a DAS needs every full accommodation, just like it makes little sense to assume every person without one is in top notch health with a perfect life and no obstacles. (sign me up for that plan!) A papers/no papers system relies on the idea that assistance would be a yes/no- rather than meeting specific needs issue.


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## Schmeck

cmwade77 said:


> No, actually that's not illegal, but when it's a benefit not afforded to the general public, they can ask for proof, as long as there is another system in place that provides the same level of access as other guests could get.
> 
> Technically, Disney could keep the DAS in place and bring back the GAC with unlimited FPs and require proof for it. The problem is many people on all sides of the issue would find this unfair and as stated before, there will be many doctors who would simply write a note, even if the person didn't need it. Please note I am NOT in favor of doing this, nor do I think that Disney would ever consider it. I am simply pointing out that this would most likely be legal to do.



I agree that one would need proof - but as it stands at Disney now, they will not ask for proof so it was illegal to offer superior access. I also think there is some requirement that the experience presents as diminished because of the disability (like a large percent of the attraction is inaccessible?) in order to require the proof. I'll try to find that part and will post a link if I find it.


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## AndreaA

richflour said:


> This discussion is pointless . The people with disabilties that feel a sense of entiltement are only looking for support to "feel good " about using their disabilty to gain an unfair advantage!
> The GAS is here to stay .
> Sorry to disappoint.



Why are you coming into this thread late and outing this insulting nonsense?  Have you even read the rest of the thread?  It has been a quite pleasant discussion/debate on ways to improve the current DAS system, because it is currently not working very well.  

There has been no argument made for reverting to the GAC.  The GAC has only been mentioned because someone said that legally it would have been tough for Disney to start off giving, say, immediate access if the line is less than 30min. (As opposed to the current 10) and then switch to ten minutes, while going from ten to thirty would be easy.  Someone then just happened to wonder why the same legal problem didn't apply to the old GAC and whether that is the basis for the current class action lawsuit.  No one has said that there should be a return to that system.




mistysue said:


> It is a GIANT step to go from getting a sign to hang on your car mirror to every person with any disability carrying around papers to prove their condition all the time. Nazi Germany anyone?



Ah, Godwin's Law rears it's head!

Other countries already follow that system as has been mentioned on this board before.  I don't think we will ever go to that system here in the US, but it's hardly a throwback to Nazi Germany.


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## richflour

mistysue said:
			
		

> It is a GIANT step to go from getting a sign to hang on your car mirror to every person with any disability carrying around papers to prove their condition all the time. Nazi Germany anyone?
> 
> Unless everybody carried around medical papers all the time then in this particular case we are also looking at people not bringing something because they don't know.  How does that work when somebody paralyzed in a wheelchair can't use the accessible vehicle because they don't have a sheet of paper? Meanwhile random pediatrician writes Mrs. X a note that all of her kids can't wait in line so they get a special pass?
> 
> Disabilities (non-physical especially) are not as cut and dry as people want them to be. There are not huge lines we can draw to say something like autistic= needs assistance, not autistic = no assistance. There are many people who even get contradicting diagnoses from doctors. I had a 9 year old who couldn't say the alphabet, use a phone or have a conversation more than 2 lines long... but my pediatrician said she was fine (pediatrician shortage in the area, I'm not just a moron). It took years of trying to get her into specialists and getting brain scans to get somebody to step back and say "hey, something is going on here" I think it's fabulous that as a society we have arranged that people can work on face value of "tell me your needs, not what you have been titled."
> It makes little sense to assume that every person issued a DAS needs every full accommodation, just like it makes little sense to assume every person without one is in top notch health with a perfect life and no obstacles. (sign me up for that plan!) A papers/no papers system relies on the idea that assistance would be a yes/no- rather than meeting specific needs issue.



Im sorry but being a responsible caregiver for my son that has/is : wheelchair bound / vent and oxogen dependent / seizure disorder , hypothyroidism , gerd / spinal rod placement , club feet , cleft palet and moibius syndrome.    
I Always carry around a summery of his health conditions/medication records in case of emergency. 
No not nazi germany its called being responsible.


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## Schmeck

AndreaA said:


> Why are you coming into this thread late and outing this insulting nonsense?  Have you even read the rest of the thread?  It has been a quite pleasant discussion/debate on ways to improve the current DAS system, because it is currently not working very well.
> 
> There has been no argument made for reverting to the GAC.  The GAC has only been mentioned because someone said that legally it would have been tough for Disney to start off giving, say, immediate access if the line is less than 30min. (As opposed to the current 10) and then switch to ten minutes, while going from ten to thirty would be easy.  Someone then just happened to wonder why the same legal problem didn't apply to the old GAC and whether that is the basis for the current class action lawsuit.  No one has said that there should be a return to that system.



Is there a lawsuit already filed, or are you talking about the facebook mom trying to stir up support?


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## cmwade77

This thread has gotten way off topic. It was never about eliminating the DAS or if the change was legal or not (it is by the way). 

The DAS in all reality definitely is more equal than the GAC was, but has it's own issues. This thread was about an idea on how to correct these issues. 

Disney has found ways to handle most of the issues and is working on the others, between this fact and how off topic this thread has gotten, I think SueMN is right that it's about time to close this thread.


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## AndreaA

Schmeck said:


> Is there a lawsuit already filed, or are you talking about the facebook mom trying to stir up support?



I don't think we should keep pulling this thread off topic, but I will answer.  Apparently it has been filed.  I really have no other information since I couldn't care less about it.  I do think that whackaloon FB mom mentioned it on her page.


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## Gracie09

richflour said:


> Im sorry but being a responsible caregiver for my son that has/is : wheelchair bound / vent and oxogen dependent / seizure disorder , hypothyroidism , gerd / spinal rod placement , club feet , cleft palet and moibius syndrome. I Always carry around a summery of his health conditions/medication records in case of emergency. No not nazi germany its called being responsible.


For your child's disability that is fine but there are many people with disabilities that don't need to carry medical records.


I would really love the legal cite for the case discussed above.


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## SueM in MN

richflour said:


> To get the card you have to take to the dmv a letter from your physisian on what your disabilty is.


First - not everyone who gets a handicapped parking card would need a DAS.
For handicapped parking permit, the doctor has to certify to certain requirements, many of which have nothing to do with whether or not a person could wait in line at WDW.

Second - it is time to close this thread. It has gone on for several more pages, that still boils down to the same things over and over.

Closing now

Typos and autocorrect!!!


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