# AP sales…



## Madame

Is anyone else (who uses their DVC for park visits) seriously struggling to find a way forward without an AP..?

We’ve reduced length of ticket (incorporating 50% non park days), reduced to base instead of hoppers…. The cost is just prohibitive.  I’m not even thinking of the discounted pass (which is useless to us as Xmas travellers)… just any AP!

I don’t understand how they market DVC anymore, but given the proclivity of most new - & many veteran - owners to choose studios (assuming to save points) and prefer multiple visits to larger accommodations….  Just why are they not allowing AP sales to DVC members?


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## zavandor

Things are not yet 100% in the parks. Many shows are still dark or in reduced form, no real character meet, mostly no street entertainment, restaurants are not 100%. For many days park passes are sold out which means they meet their reduced cap.
Once all those thing are back, AP will be back.
If they planned to discontinue or alter dramatically the AP programme, they would have done like in DL. They are still allowing AP renewals, which means new sales will restart. We don't know when and it is certainly a huge issue for people with vacations booked in the next few weeks.


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## Madame

zavandor said:


> Things are not yet 100% in the parks. Many shows are still dark or in reduced form, no real character meet, mostly no street entertainment, restaurants are not 100%. For many days park passes are sold out which means they meet their reduced cap.
> Once all those thing are back, AP will be back.
> If they planned to discontinue or alter dramatically the AP programme, they would have done like in DL. They are still allowing AP renewals, which means new sales will restart. We don't know when and it is certainly a huge issue for people with vacations booked in the next few weeks.


True.  I just booked for Easter (4 weeks out) and all parks are available, however, & that’s not even using the AP park reservation pool.  Surely DVC members are a drop in the bucket.  

I don’t even think it’s a deliberate choice, they either don’t care or simply don’t think about it.  I just lament the lack of service/care with which the Disney brand used to be synonymous


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## Sandisw

Madame said:


> True.  I just booked for Easter (4 weeks out) and all parks are available, however, & that’s not even using the AP park reservation pool.  Surely DVC members are a drop in the bucket.
> 
> I don’t even think it’s a deliberate choice, they either don’t care or simply don’t think about it.  I just lament the lack of service/care with which the Disney brand used to be synonymous



The AP sales are determined by DPEP and when they make the decisions they make they take into account all guests.  DVC, unfortunately are no more or less important to that division than the regular cash guests who also go multiple times a year, or FL/CA residents that go multiple times a year.

Now, what would be great is for them to have allowed DVC owners a chance to buy the pixie dust pass, like FL residents still can, during the suspension as I would snap up one of those without question and adjust my trips so I don't visit on weekends (which I don't normally anyway).

But, I think we just have to wait but the renewing gives me hope they will be back.  I also think the lawsuit may be playing a larger role in this now since they did not return after the holiday crowds.


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## Madame

Sandisw said:


> The AP sales are determined by DPEP and when they make the decisions they make they take into account all guests.  DVC, unfortunately are no more or less important to that division than the regular cash guests who also go multiple times a year, or FL/CA residents that go multiple times a year.
> 
> Now, what would be great is for them to have allowed DVC owners a chance to buy the pixie dust pass, like FL residents still can, during the suspension as I would snap up one of those without question and adjust my trips so I don't visit on weekends (which I don't normally anyway).
> 
> But, I think we just have to wait but the renewing gives me hope they will be back.  I also think the lawsuit may be playing a larger role in this now since they did not return after the holiday crowds.


Definitely.  I just wish DVC recognized what was important to a lot of their base and either communicated *something* with us regarding APs or attempted (assuming they’ve not) to negotiate with the ticketing division on our behalf.


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## Ms.Minnie

I know that if there isn’t an annual pass for DVC available by the time we go on our next trip which will take place in Jan 2023 we will definitely change how we do Disney.  We may buy a few day passes through Shades of Green but that isn’t a definite plan at this time.  

 A lot of times we go into a park just to enjoy a meal at one of the restaurants housed within the park.  I guess going forward that will change, no pass means no entry into park which means we can’t eat at favorite restaurants within park.  This could equate to a loss of revenue for the restaurants within the parks if enough people do the same thing.  

I’m hoping they do bring back the DVC annual pass program along with Tables In Wonderland program.  We have enjoyed both for many years now but I guess the old saying that “all good things must come to and end” may be applicable here.  I sure hope not!


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## Madame

Ms.Minnie said:


> I know that if there isn’t an annual pass for DVC available by the time we go on our next trip which will take place in Jan 2023 we will definitely change how we do Disney.  We may buy a few day passes through Shades of Green but that isn’t a definite plan at this time.
> 
> A lot of times we go into a park just to enjoy a meal at one of the restaurants housed within the park.  I guess going forward that will change, no pass means no entry into park which means we can’t eat at favorite restaurants within park.  This could equate to a loss of revenue for the restaurants within the parks if enough people do the same thing.
> 
> I’m hoping they do bring back the DVC annual pass program along with Tables In Wonderland program.  We have enjoyed both for many years now but I guess the old saying that “all good things must come to and end” may be applicable here.  I sure hope not!


Same here.  BCV is one of our homes, but a big part of why we love it is eating & shopping in the PM in Epcot or DHS & If we’re forced to keep skimping on base tix… well


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms.Minnie said:


> This could equate to a loss of revenue for the restaurants within the parks if enough people do the same thing.


The problem is, right now, Disney is experiencing such demand that basically every restaurant reservation is sold out for every restaurant at all times.  So I think Disney isn’t really losing much revenue by pausing AP sales and I also don’t think they care much about long term good will anymore unfortunately.


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## DeeBee3

I believe higher ups (forget her name) said they would not be changing park capacity since they are so full right now. I don't think capacity will affect AP sales. I do hope they return because the tickets are really expensive. We are new to DVC and I did not have an AP. Now that we have an idea of how often we can travel, those APs would be great. We definitely limited our upcoming trip park days. It's just so expensive. However, now we will do resort things and just check out all the non-park adventures.


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## kdm31091

Completely understand wanting to just pop in for a meal, but unfortunately, the parks are super crowded, and Disney is trying to mitigate that. Outside of park reservations, limiting APs is another way to do that.

Since they're allowing renewals, I would imagine sales will be back - I doubt the program gets killed entirely. We just don't know when sales will resume. In the meantime, resort days & exploring non-park options are alternatives because yes, day tickets are absurdly priced.


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## Madame

kdm31091 said:


> Completely understand wanting to just pop in for a meal, but unfortunately, the parks are super crowded, and Disney is trying to mitigate that. Outside of park reservations, limiting APs is another way to do that.


Yes but selling DVC, a product that encourages longer or more shorter trips and denying AP sales to those clients seems sketchy to me.  I understand modern corporations have a silo mentality - I just don’t like it.


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## RoseGold

I swapped out the point bookings so that a couple of my contracts are ready to sell after my May trip. If there are no APs, even really expensive or Blue Card only ones, my DVC plans don’t work.  I can’t be the only one thinking that.

I’m not going to be the last one out, when the writing is on the wall.  Disney has made a lot of decisions that don’t benefit DVC, but this would be the one that ends it for me.


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## aka Charles

Sandisw said:


> Now, what would be great is for them to have allowed DVC owners a chance to buy the pixie dust pass, like FL residents still can, during the suspension as I would snap up one of those without question and adjust my trips so I don't visit on weekends (which I don't normally anyway).


I agree, allowing DVC members access to get a pixie dust AP would be a great gesture on Disney's part.  After all, we do own "property" in Florida, which kinda makes us Florida residents.


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## Madame

RoseGold said:


> I swapped out the point bookings so that a couple of my contracts are ready to sell after my May trip. If there are no APs, even really expensive or Blue Card only ones, my DVC plans don’t work.  I can’t be the only one thinking that.
> 
> I’m not going to be the last one out, when the writing is on the wall.  Disney has made a lot of decisions that don’t benefit DVC, but this would be the one that ends it for me.


I’m hoping it doesn’t get to that point, but this is just brutal (even having the extra funds after basically being locked down in Canada for 2 years).  I like resort time but I can spend time much more cheaply in Florida if I can’t go to the parks, but using air b&b or renting a townhome or condo.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

The longer this pause takes the more I also think it’s tied to that lawsuit in California.  I continue to believe that lawsuit has teeth and will ultimately be settled by Disney with changes to the AP program, including probably getting rid of the different “classes” of park availability.


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## RoseGold

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> The longer this pause takes the more I also think it’s tied to that lawsuit in California.  I continue to believe that lawsuit has teeth and will ultimately be settled by Disney with changes to the AP program, including probably getting rid of the different “classes” of park availability.



If that’s true, then AP is truly doomed.  They want to be able to throttle the cheapskates.

Or, if they can make a class for it, maybe the solution is something like an on-site only AP, which would be a big boost for DVC and an awesome Blue Card perk.


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## Madame

RoseGold said:


> If that’s true, then AP is truly doomed.  They want to be able to throttle the cheapskates.
> 
> Or, if they can make a class for it, maybe the solution is something like an on-site only AP, which would be a big boost for DVC and an awesome Blue Card perk.


Yes, the lawsuit could take years, right?  Kind of glad my kids are older and losing interest a bit so I can leave some of them home…. $1000 usd for 3 days of tickets for 2 people when we only ride a few rides per day…. Not sustainable.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

RoseGold said:


> If that’s true, then AP is truly doomed.  They want to be able to throttle the cheapskates.
> 
> Or, if they can make a class for it, maybe the solution is something like an on-site only AP, which would be a big boost for DVC and an awesome Blue Card perk.


The problem with the current AP and park pass bucket structure is that it is really deceptive, especially in the case of California.  In California, they literally sold an premium priced AP that cost more so you could use it on weekends, and then had NO weekend availability for months for AP holders while simultaneously still selling day passes for walk-ups.  There are other ways to throttle  AP’s without being so deceptive.  For example, you could, up front, state “this annual pass entitles you to ‘X’ visits per year, no more.”  Then at least you’re being honest about the product you’re delivering.  Plenty of other variations on that.


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## lowlight

RoseGold said:


> I swapped out the point bookings so that a couple of my contracts are ready to sell after my May trip. If there are no APs, even really expensive or Blue Card only ones, my DVC plans don’t work.  I can’t be the only one thinking that.
> 
> I’m not going to be the last one out, when the writing is on the wall.  Disney has made a lot of decisions that don’t benefit DVC, but this would be the one that ends it for me.



APs are 100% my line in the sand.  Not just out of principal, but financially.  If for some reason we can’t renew the ones we have now and it becomes permanently removed, I will list my contracts the next day in a fire sale to get ahead of the pack that will surely follow.  With that said, I don’t think it’s permanent.


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## lowlight

RoseGold said:


> If that’s true, then AP is truly doomed.  They want to be able to throttle the cheapskates.
> 
> Or, if they can make a class for it, maybe the solution is something like an on-site only AP, which would be a big boost for DVC and an awesome Blue Card perk.



The issue with this is, I don't want to concede one more got dang thing to Disney.  I've conceded dozens of things in the past few years in the name of "pandemic" or "short staffing" or "shortages" or "high demand" or "inflation" or just plain "Disney wanting a higher spending park visitor", the list goes on.  I don't want to offer Disney a way to realize more profit on something that is already very profitable.  Sure, they can make it for on-site stays only, or make it limited to a certain number of days a year, or a bunch of things, but the AP is the last "value" item left in the ENTIRE universe of Disney, and even then, it had 40% of it's value chewed out when it changed from Gold to Sorcerer.  I have no way of stopping Disney from doing anything, and even if a hundred people agreed and left with me it wouldn't even be a blip on the balance sheet, but I won't pay more for it, or accept it when it's rebirthed as a more limited product at a higher cost.  Disney has poked and prodded me for the past few years with price increases and I smile through clenched teeth each time, but this would be the proverbial straw, and I say that as a blue card member.  Raise the price on Mickey Bars to $9 for all I care, but when you start artificially gating how many times I can come to a park that's, I guess coincidentally, on the same property as the property you leased to me as a "second home", it's over.  "Welcome home, but not for that long of a stay!" It's almost like that movie where the guy has to maintain a certain adrenaline level or his heart stops, except it's Chapek and if he doesn't maintain a certain profit level, he self combusts.


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## Rochester Disney Fan

If the annual passes are not going to be offered I would hope that DVC would let members purchase their tickets with a % discount that was similar to the annual passes .


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## Pinnochio

Madame said:


> Same here.  BCV is one of our homes, but a big part of why we love it is eating & shopping in the PM in Epcot or DHS & If we’re forced to keep skimping on base tix… well


BCV & BWV are our home resorts and we love the eating & shopping in Epcot & DHS too....we took a 12 night trip in Feb, normally have an AP, but this time bought a 4 day pass (could not justify an 11 day ticket that now cost more than an AP)....that said, i calculated Disney lost: $200 at Le Cellier, $150 at Tutto, $150 Mexico, $150 Norway, $200 Brown Derby and $150 Mama Melrose....Will they feel that?....I dunno....but we did find some very good offsite restaurants in the process....just my 2cents


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## Pinnochio

Ms.Minnie said:


> A lot of times we go into a park just to enjoy a meal at one of the restaurants housed within the park.  I guess going forward that will change, no pass means no entry into park which means we can’t eat at favorite restaurants within park.  This could equate to a loss of revenue for the restaurants within the parks if enough people do the same thing.


we do the same, go in sometimes just for dinner....its our favorite time in the parks (eat/drink/walk stroll slowly/people watch)... my wife and i calculated that they lost over $1,500 from us on our 12 night trip in Feb.....hopefully a lot of us do this and they start to feel that pinch....fingers crossed....


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Pinnochio said:


> that said, i calculated Disney lost: $200 at Le Cellier, $150 at Tutto, $150 Mexico, $150 Norway, $200 Brown Derby and $150 Mama Melrose...


Were there day of reservations available for any of those restaurants?  Because if not, Disney didn’t lose any money.  Again, I think this stinks from a customer satisfaction perspective, but Disney is not losing money right now because of unfilled restaurant reservations.  This is part of why they do not care.


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## Sandisw

Rochester Disney Fan said:


> If the annual passes are not going to be offered I would hope that DVC would let members purchase their tickets with a % discount that was similar to the annual passes .



DVC doesn’t have a say in offering tickets at a discount. It still has to be something negotiated with DPEP.

That is why it is clear in the POS and the membership extra documents that these are incidental and none of it is guaranteed to us.

Of course, it would be great and last year, they did include DVC in the same ticket deal they offered cash guests. However, right now, they are not having an issue filling the parks so no real need,

And, while DVC sales are down, not so much so that it can’t be attributed to other factors.


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## Pinnochio

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Were there day of reservations available for any of those restaurants?
> i sure hope so!


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## RoseGold

Rochester Disney Fan said:


> If the annual passes are not going to be offered I would hope that DVC would let members purchase their tickets with a % discount that was similar to the annual passes .



They couldn’t even be bothered to cough up $50 when the incredipass was for sale.  Blue Card hasn’t stepped up at all when it comes to tickets.

On site only tickets make sense to me though, as a clear delineation that they should be able to fill (known number of people).  There’s always at least room at Epcot.


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## gregskellington

Annual passes exist for a reason and they will be back for that reason. Who knows if that time comes next week or next year.


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## CarolMN

RoseGold said:


> Or, if they can make a class for it, maybe the solution is something like an on-site only AP, which would be a big boost for DVC and an awesome Blue Card perk.


I would really love an annual pass like this  -  good for any day one is staying in an on-site resort.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

CarolMN said:


> I would really love an annual pass like this - good for any day one is staying in an on-site resort.


At some point after the current travel boom ends I almost think they *have* to do something like this, and not for just DVC.  On-site benefits are nearly completely gone now.  The benefit to staying onsite for LL is minimal, and it is non-existent for genie+.  The loss of so many other onsite perks are eventually going to make people realize that staying on site isn’t really worth it unless you’re at a hotel in walking or monorail/gondola distance from one of the parks.  Too many nicer and cheaper resorts in Orlando.

This could also be why we see new DVC additions popping up along the monorail (GFV, PVB), and not stand-alones like Reflections.


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## CarolMN

CarolMN said:


> I would really love an annual pass like this  -  good for any day one is staying in an on-site resort.


Forgot to say that such a pass would  "reward" some of DVD's best customers and encourage more purchases.   The more you stay on site, more value the pass would have.

I also like it because it's not much of a benefit to those who own to mostly rent  points.


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## DisneyRegulars

For a long time I was angry about the lack of annual passes. But in the end, I’m glad this annual pass hiatus happened. It got me to take off my rose colored Disney glasses and realize there is more to my vacation time than just Disney. I have two more trips planned-ish because I already have purchased tickets, but after that I don’t think I will be going to Disney nearly as often. Maybe every 3-5 years. While annual passes make the trip affordable and making going 3-4 times in a year super enticing, there are other things I would rather do now.
So thank you Disney for forcing me from my annual pass routine. I’m enjoying exploring our world and going on truly new and exciting adventures. Very glad the rental market for my points is so strong! Our latest adventure outside the bubble:


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## Pinnochio

DisneyRegulars said:


> For a long time I was angry about the lack of annual passes. But in the end, I’m glad this annual pass hiatus happened. It got me to take off my rose colored Disney glasses and realize there is more to my vacation time than just Disney. While annual passes make the trip affordable and making going 3-4 times in a year super enticing, there are other things I would rather do now.
> So thank you Disney for forcing me from my annual pass routine. I’m enjoying exploring our world and going on truly new and exciting adventures. Very glad the rental market for my points is so strong!
> View attachment 655936


100% agree.....In the time without AP's we have gone to Yosemite, Carmel, Monterey & San Fran (one trip) and Saratoga NY & Burlington VT (also one trip)....You said it best, "thank you Disney for forcing me from my annual pass routine".


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## sheilafri

I feel about the opposite. We prefer visiting the familiar in these uncertain times and as we have FL Resident APs we’ve been able to go when we have felt comfortable about it. I am SO looking forward to being able to travel elsewhere, though, and will actually get on an airplane next week for the first time in over two years.


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## cm8

I don’t understand why anyone would purchase a product that tells you upfront they don’t tie ownership interest into the park access.

Yes, having accommodations close to the parks are nice but they are not mutually exclusive of each other. Buy the tickets to visit or just use your accommodations else where.

I don’t really see lots of people selling DVC just because they can’t access the parks due to lack of AP’s. Tickets are available for purchase and yes they are very expensive if we use them like we would an AP.


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## Madame

cm8 said:


> I don’t understand why anyone would purchase a product that tells you upfront they don’t not tie ownership interest into the park access.
> 
> Yes, having accommodations close to the parks are nice but they are not mutually exclusive of each other. Buy the tickets to visit or just use your accommodations else where.
> 
> I don’t really see lots of people selling DVC just because they can’t access the parks due to lack of AP’s. Tickets are available for purchase and yes they are very expensive if we use them like we would an AP.


Because they tout APs as how to do WDW in the sales pitch.  If the DL and WDW resorts were geographically located anywhere else, they wouldn’t sell nearly as well.  Why can Universal get its act together and yet WDW can’t?  No skin off our nose.  We have 3 days booked ahead of a cruise in Aug and we’ve already purchased USO APs


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## Sandisw

Madame said:


> Because they tout APs as how to do WDW in the sales pitch.  If the DL and WDW resorts were geographically located anywhere else, they wouldn’t sell nearly as well.  Why can Universal get its act together and yet WDW can’t?  No skin off our nose.  We have 3 days booked ahead of a cruise in Aug and we’ve already purchased USO APs



Sure, they bring up the potential for perks.  However, you are given the membership perks document and have to sign off on it when you are buying as part of the closing documents,

Those do clearly say these are incidental and not guaranteed.  So, no one buys without being given the information in plain sight and not buried deep in terms and conditions.

I get disappointment and frustration and  all that, but I certainly don’t think people should be angry because they were given time to read it all and know what they were getting,

It is why there is the 10 day cancellation given via FL law.  To make sure buyers have time to read everything and back out if they don’t feel they are getting what they think.


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## Madame

Sandisw said:


> Sure, they bring up the potential for perks.  However, you are given the membership perks document and have to sign off on it when you are buying as part of the closing documents,
> 
> Those do clearly say these are incidental and not guaranteed.  So, no one buys without being given the information in plain sight and not buried deep in terms and conditions.
> 
> I get disappointment and frustration and  all that, but I certainly don’t think people should be angry because they were given time to read it all and know what they were getting,
> 
> It is why there is the 10 day cancellation given via FL law.  To make sure buyers have time to read everything and back out if they don’t feel they are getting what they think.


I don’t think myself or anyone in this thread has said we’re (currently) angry.  Disillusioned & a bit disgusted maybe.

There is the sale and then the reality of the product for sure, but then they’ll be just another timeshare whose sales pitch rests heavily on geographic location to the parent company’s theme parks…. Which again brings us to the product they’re marketing and access to those theme parks.

Perhaps the VGF resort  studios reflect the new mindset (short visit, drop as much cash as you can and get out) as much as their higher ups’ public disdain for passholders.  If that’s the new direction, then it is what it is.  There’s a reason they’re highlighting the 1 & 2 bds at VGF 1 to sell VGF2 though….

ETA I think WDW in general is having a bit of an identity crisis.


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## DisBuckMan

Madame said:


> Why can Universal get its act together and yet WDW can’t?



Universal is definitely more customer friendly than WDW is these days.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

DisneyRegulars said:


> For a long time I was angry about the lack of annual passes. But in the end, I’m glad this annual pass hiatus happened. It got me to take off my rose colored Disney glasses and realize there is more to my vacation time than just Disney. I have two more trips planned-ish because I already have purchased tickets, but after that I don’t think I will be going to Disney nearly as often. Maybe every 3-5 years. While annual passes make the trip affordable and making going 3-4 times in a year super enticing, there are other things I would rather do now.
> So thank you Disney for forcing me from my annual pass routine. I’m enjoying exploring our world and going on truly new and exciting adventures. Very glad the rental market for my points is so strong! Our latest adventure outside the bubble:
> View attachment 655936


I feel the same way about Genie+ and the complete destruction of almost all on-site perks.  Since there’s no longer any onsite fastpass benefit I tried an offsite timeshare resort for the first time last Christmas (the Vistana) and I was blown away by how nice it was, and how cheap!  I will now be spending far less at Disney World by staying offsite for many of my trips, so thanks Bob Chapek for helping me save money!


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## lowlight

cm8 said:


> I don’t understand why anyone would purchase a product that tells you upfront they don’t not tie ownership interest into the park access.
> 
> Yes, having accommodations close to the parks are nice but they are not mutually exclusive of each other. Buy the tickets to visit or just use your accommodations else where.
> 
> I don’t really see lots of people selling DVC just because they can’t access the parks due to lack of AP’s. Tickets are available for purchase and yes they are very expensive if we use them like we would an AP.


 
Life is all about perspective.


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## Skywalker3

We'd be very interested in at least a weekday pass. Just ANY AP would be good. Still holding off buying tickets for our June trip, but will need to make park reservations soon. We have 2 trips planned this year, but not having APs, will affect our decisions. June trip is DD's graduation trip, and bringing a friend. DH and DS will not go if there are no APs. For Oct trip,will shorten if we have to buy regular tickets. Already have APs for Universal, so will shift there if need be some of the time. We've only traveled to Disney w APs since buying DVC in 2011, We dont' want to do Disney with regular, limited number of days. That's just our preference. We'll just go elsewhere. we only have 1 large DVC contract, so not looking to sell...yet. We've never rented out points, but will be looking into that option if APs don't come back. Currently not interested in WDW resort only trips. Have used points at Vero, and hope to at HH, but we'll have way too many points if not frequenting WDW as much. Hopefully they'll offer some sort of AP very soon!


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## Sandisw

Madame said:


> I don’t think myself or anyone in this thread has said we’re (currently) angry.  Disillusioned & a bit disgusted maybe.
> 
> There is the sale and then the reality of the product for sure, but then they’ll be just another timeshare whose sales pitch rests heavily on geographic location to the parent company’s theme parks…. Which again brings us to the product they’re marketing and access to those theme parks.
> 
> Perhaps the VGF resort  studios reflect the new mindset (short visit, drop as much cash as you can and get out) as much as their higher ups’ public disdain for passholders.  If that’s the new direction, then it is what it is.  There’s a reason they’re highlighting the 1 & 2 bds at VGF 1 to sell VGF2 though….
> 
> ETA I think WDW in general is having a bit of an identity crisis.



I wasn’t referring to anyone or any specific post here, but there are plenty of posts here and elsewhere where owners are angry about it and decisions that have been made…some, like this, which has nothing to do with DVC specifically.

That was more my point.  We all like getting the extras but we also know that it could change down the road, and to an extent, that we may have to make hard decisions about our trips to WDW.

I admit that I am unique in that I enjoy the area and the resorts as much as I enjoy the parks so if I didn’t have an AP,  I would adjust..no more popping in to MK just to take a picture with the castle and shop at Emporium.


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## lowlight

Sandisw said:


> I wasn’t referring to anyone or any specific post here, but there are plenty of posts here and elsewhere where owners are angry about it and decisions that have been made…some, like this, which has nothing to do with DVC specifically.
> 
> That was more my point.  We all like getting the extras but we also know that it could change down the road, and to an extent, that we may have to make hard decisions about our trips to WDW.
> 
> I admit that I am unique in that I enjoy the area and the resorts as much as I enjoy the parks so if I didn’t have an AP,  I would adjust..no more popping in to MK just to take a picture with the castle and shop at Emporium.



Do you think the existence of the Gold Pass led to an increase of, if not contracts- at the very least, DVC points sold?  Disney is like the person in the club selling the champagne rooms apparently.


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## Madame

Skywalker3 said:


> We'd be very interested in at least a weekday pass. Just ANY AP would be good. Still holding off buying tickets for our June trip, but will need to make park reservations soon. We have 2 trips planned this year, but not having APs, will affect our decisions. June trip is DD's graduation trip, and bringing a friend. DH and DS will not go if there are no APs. For Oct trip,will shorten if we have to buy regular tickets. Already have APs for Universal, so will shift there if need be some of the time. We've only traveled to Disney w APs since buying DVC in 2011, We dont' want to do Disney with regular, limited number of days. That's just our preference. We'll just go elsewhere. we only have 1 large DVC contract, so not looking to sell...yet. We've never rented out points, but will be looking into that option if APs don't come back. Currently not interested in WDW resort only trips. Have used points at Vero, and hope to at HH, but we'll have way too many points if not frequenting WDW as much. Hopefully they'll offer some sort of AP very soon!


This sounds similar to us.  My plan is to do more couples trips bc DH hates the parks and loves the golf courses… I see this as a win (less money on tix = more trips)

I’m in several non-DVC FB pages and just in the last few weeks there is post after post concerning crazy ticket prices - many of the posters are once in a lifers, some off siters.  I don’t know that we’d have ever visited multiple times let alone purchased DVC had ticket prices been so outrageous in 2014.

I don’t really know what the solution is since the parks are so packed, but I miss being able to just spend an hour or two in the parks and the rest of the day lounging at the pool or visiting DS. Now I feel like I need my money’s worth & genie (if you choose to purchase to try to limit park time), ties you to the park all day with the randomly assigned return times.

Maybe an after 4 pass for DVC, or onsite stay only pass - either one of those would appeal to many of us.  It just seems they’re disinterested in providing us options after selling many of us on the Disney experience.  If I’d bought direct, I would be very regretful…


----------



## Sandisw

lowlight said:


> Do you think the existence of the Gold Pass led to an increase of, if not contracts- at the very least, DVC points sold?  Disney is like the person in the club selling the champagne rooms apparently.



Of course there are some people who bought knowing that the gold AP was offered,

I added my adult kids in 2019 when I bought RIV so they would be blue card owners and have access to that AP.

But I also knew it could go away anytime and so far, only 3 of 9 of us have gotten them.  I am certainly not angry about it because I was aware of it and I knew that DVC has no control over any ticket offerings.

So, if they never return, then we gambled and won’t end up with the long term savings we had hoped we would get.  They will still get whatever perks there are and that 20% discount on merchandise and 10% off meals most places will be something that they wouldn’t have had we not added them.

Again, I completely get frustration and disappointment but I am just not one who blames Disney for having given me a benefit that I knew was not guaranteed and now find it gone.


----------



## wnielsen1

Sandisw said:


> I admit that I am unique in that I enjoy the area and the resorts as much as I enjoy the parks so if I didn’t have an AP,  I would adjust..no more popping in to MK just to take a picture with the castle and shop at Emporium.


You are not unique on this point.


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> Sure, they bring up the potential for perks.  However, you are given the membership perks document and have to sign off on it when you are buying as part of the closing documents,
> 
> Those do clearly say these are incidental and not guaranteed.  So, no one buys without being given the information in plain sight and not buried deep in terms and conditions.
> 
> I get disappointment and frustration and  all that, but I certainly don’t think people should be angry because they were given time to read it all and know what they were getting,
> 
> It is why there is the 10 day cancellation given via FL law.  To make sure buyers have time to read everything and back out if they don’t feel they are getting what they think.



There is also an expectation in law that what you are advertising is not materially different than what's being provided.   I wouldn't be surprised to see Disney lose in court due to sales practices if that ever came about.

Just because something is in a contract doesn't mean it is legal.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> There is also an expectation in law that what you are advertising is not materially different than what's being provided.   I wouldn't be surprised to see Disney lose in court due to sales practices if that ever came about.
> 
> Just because something is in a contract doesn't mean it is legal.



But I have never had a DVC person tell me anything more than Just that you are eligible for perks and one of them…at that time…was the AP.

I would agree if it was buried in fine print but every time I have talked to sales people about things, it’s always been with words right now, currently.  etc. 

Sorry, but no one  buys DVC without being clearly given the terms of perks and while I agree that something in that is illegal and it would not stand up, and nothing regarding perks is hidden or kept secret from any buyer.  I have never seen any advertisement that is deceptive and promises them to buyers. 

Simply don’t agree that someone gets to buy, knows the rules, clearly signs, and then wants them changed later.  I do not see Disney ever losing this one if it came down to it in court.

IIRC, there is even language in FL Timeshare law that discusses incidental benefits and the rules regarding them.


----------



## ILoveMyDVC

Sandisw said:


> But I have never had a DVC person tell me anything more than Just that you are eligible for perks and one of them…at that time…was the AP.
> 
> I would agree if it was buried in fine print but every time I have talked to sales people about things, it’s always been with words right now, currently.  etc.
> 
> Sorry, but no one  buys DVC without being clearly given the terms of perks and while I agree that something in that is illegal and it would not stand up, and nothing regarding perks is hidden or kept secret from any buyer.  I have never seen any advertisement that is deceptive and promises them to buyers.
> 
> Simply don’t agree that someone gets to buy, knows the rules, clearly signs, and then wants them changed later.  I do not see Disney ever losing this one if it came down to it in court.
> 
> IIRC, there is even language in FL Timeshare law that discusses incidental benefits and the rules regarding them.


I think that would address the discount on the passes not the complete non existence of the APs.


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> But I have never had a DVC person tell me anything more than Just that you are eligible for perks and one of them…at that time…was the AP.
> 
> I would agree if it was buried in fine print but every time I have talked to sales people about things, it’s always been with words right now, currently.  etc.
> 
> Sorry, but no one  buys DVC without being clearly given the terms of perks and while I agree that something in that is illegal and it would not stand up, and nothing regarding perks is hidden or kept secret from any buyer.  I have never seen any advertisement that is deceptive and promises them to buyers.
> 
> Simply don’t agree that someone gets to buy, knows the rules, clearly signs, and then wants them changed later.  I do not see Disney ever losing this one if it came down to it in court.
> 
> IIRC, there is even language in FL Timeshare law that discusses incidental benefits and the rules regarding them.




I've heard plenty of deceptive practices from DVC staff when trying to close a sale or lure in a prospective buyer as have many on these boards.

Look at the point chart reallocation fiasco.


----------



## Sandisw

ILoveMyDVC said:


> I think that would address the discount on the passes not the complete non existence of the APs.



If you  read the documents carefully, it says no incidental benefit is guaranteed and can cease to exist at any time.

They don’t even have to have a membership perks program.   It specifically mentions these can go away because they are agreements with a third party.  I realize others disagree.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> I've heard plenty of deceptive practices from DVC staff when trying to close a sale or lure in a prospective buyer as have many on these boards.
> 
> Look at the point chart reallocation fiasco.



Agree to disagree on sales tactics And what is deceptive and what is given to buyers in black and white.


----------



## Skywalker3

DH and I are both pretty pessimistic and very cynical.  I tend to expect the worst case scenario most of the time. So we bought DVC knowing no perks were guaranteed, and I understand that. We didn't buy in for perks. We also didn't buy direct, and didn't really listen to any sales pitch.
But, even in my pessimistic mind, I truly never thought all AP sales would totally go away for everyone  (DVC or not. I know Florida residents still have options). We are willing to pay the higher, regular price for APs, no DVC discount, if they'd just sell them.
WE've been going to Disney fairly regularly since 2000, and have seen lots of ups and downs for perks, discounts, prices, all of it, so I get this will most likely be temporary. Just hope APs will come back as soon as possible!


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> They don’t even have to have a membership perks program.   It specifically mentions these can go away because they are agreements with a third party.  I realize others disagree.



They do based off of how they use it as a sales tactic.  

I can't sell you a Maserati and then put a Ford engine inside it and tell you it was In the contact so too bad.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> They do based off of how they use it as a sales tactic.
> 
> I can't sell you a Maserati and then put a Ford engine inside it and tell you it was In the contact so too bad.



Correct, but if you sell me that car, and when I go to sign to buy it, it says you can swap out the engine before I pick it up and I know that, and agree to buy it from you, I can’t complain later when I have issues.

Sorry, we just don’t agree on this and never will.

Now, the lawsuit in CA regarding the AP there has merit in my book because while it did say it was subject to park availability, it did not say that was based on Disney deciding to offer those spots to others,  IMO, that was and is deceptive.


ETA:  Here is what is published on WDW website when you go to order the DVD…so they don’t appear to be hiding anything when advertising them exactly for what they are.


----------



## BeachClub2014

I'm not ecstatic about AP sales having been suspended. Luckily I still have a valid pass that can be renewed. Having said that, I've never had the understanding that DVC membership comes with the right to purchase reduced-cost tickets, APs, or any other perks for that matter. The DVC literature has always contained disclaimers indicating member perks and add-ons are not guaranteed. Disney changes offerings all of the time. 

I do hope that Disney begins selling annual passes again and that there is a program for DVC members to get it at a reduced rate.


----------



## Madame

BeachClub2014 said:


> I'm not ecstatic about AP sales having been suspended. Luckily I still have a valid pass that can be renewed. Having said that, I've never had the understanding that DVC membership comes with the right to purchase reduced-cost tickets, APs, or any other perks for that matter. The DVC literature has always contained disclaimers indicating member perks and add-ons are not guaranteed. Disney changes offerings all of the time.
> 
> I do hope that Disney begins selling annual passes again and that there is a program for DVC members to get it at a reduced rate.


We’re not talking exclusively about discounted APs.  We’re consumers of a product which encourages spending significant amounts of our vacation time at WDW - locks us in.  

We bought into the Disney lifestyle, so it’s not unreasonable to lament a ticket offering which allows some of us to effectively enjoy that product.  I don’t think anyone in this thread has mentioned perks (i.e. discounted - can we really call it that anymore anyway? - APs).


----------



## tim494

Legal language is what it is.  I think the language is more useful for them to discontinue perks and add perks as things change over the life of the resorts.

I do think it is unrealistic for DVC to expect to continue selling well without perks.  So if AP discounts are gone I would expect some different perks to show up.

Yes the reps always tell you the perks are discretionary and to buy on the lifestyle argument, but they always tell you about the current perks.  If the perks weren’t needed for sales and customer satisfaction, they would have never started them.


----------



## sheilafri

Sandisw said:


> Correct, but if you sell me that car, and when I go to sign to buy it, it says you can swap out the engine before I pick it up and I know that, and agree to buy it from you, I can’t complain later when I have issues.
> 
> Sorry, we just don’t agree on this and never will.
> 
> Now, the lawsuit in CA regarding the AP there has merit in my book because while it did say it was subject to park availability, it did not say that was based on Disney deciding to offer those spots to others,  IMO, that was and is deceptive.
> 
> 
> ETA:  Here is what is published on WDW website when you go to order the DVD…so they don’t appear to be hiding anything when advertising them exactly for what they are.
> 
> View attachment 656119


I haven’t followed the CA case closely, but I do wonder if it was a factor in suspending AP sales in Florida. They are different states, but still seems like they may want to avoid a copycat suit or at least minimize damages if one is filed anyway.


----------



## CarolynFH

sheilafri said:


> I haven’t followed the CA case closely, but I do wonder if it was a factor in suspending AP sales in Florida. They are different states, but still seems like they may want to avoid a copycat suit or at least minimize damages if one is filed anyway.


I think it’s also possible that the outcome of that suit might provide some guidance as far as how much park capacity Disney has to set aside or reserve for AP holders.


----------



## BeachClub2014

Madame said:


> We’re not talking exclusively about discounted APs.  We’re consumers of a product which encourages spending significant amounts of our vacation time at WDW - locks us in.
> 
> We bought into the Disney lifestyle, so it’s not unreasonable to lament a ticket offering which allows some of us to effectively enjoy that product.  I don’t think anyone in this thread has mentioned perks (i.e. discounted - can we really call it that anymore anyway? - APs).



Not to further an argument, but if you go back and read my post carefully I never said anything about discounted annual passes other than *my hope* for Disney to begin selling annual passes again, and if they do, that there be a discount program for DVC members.


----------



## Isamar

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> The problem with the current AP and park pass bucket structure is that it is really deceptive, especially in the case of California.  In California, they literally sold an premium priced AP that cost more so you could use it on weekends, and then had NO weekend availability for months for AP holders while simultaneously still selling day passes for walk-ups.  There are other ways to throttle  AP’s without being so deceptive.  For example, you could, up front, state “this annual pass entitles you to ‘X’ visits per year, no more.”  Then at least you’re being honest about the product you’re delivering.  Plenty of other variations on that.



I’ve thought about this too. They could offer tiers of AP’s that entitle you to different numbers of visits within a 12-month period. For example, I think a pass for 30 or 45 park days in a 12-month period would probably satisfy the needs of most DVC members who need an AP to make multiple yearly Disney trips cost-effective. 
Plus, instead of a total blackout during a a peak period (like Christmas) on DVC-discounted passes, just charge a reasonable premium to access that period.


----------



## Madame

BeachClub2014 said:


> Having said that, I've never had the understanding that DVC membership comes with the right to purchase reduced-cost tickets, APs, or any other perks for that matter.





BeachClub2014 said:


> Not to further an argument, but if you go back and read my post carefully I never said anything about discounted annual passes other than *my hope* for Disney to begin selling annual passes again, and if they do, that there be a discount program for DVC members.



I was referring to the sentence above which indicated « reduced-cost » specifically.


----------



## Sandisw

sheilafri said:


> I haven’t followed the CA case closely, but I do wonder if it was a factor in suspending AP sales in Florida. They are different states, but still seems like they may want to avoid a copycat suit or at least minimize damages if one is filed anyway.



At this point, since they have not returned, I am definitely thinking it’s this over capacity alone.

Park reservations system is here to stay so this will shape things IMO in the terms and conditions moving forward in how they sell APs and their use. So it makes sense to me to  why they have not returned them to sale until this outcome is decided.


----------



## lowlight

Isamar said:


> I’ve thought about this too. They could offer tiers of AP’s that entitle you to different numbers of visits within a 12-month period. For example, I think a pass for 30 or 45 park days in a 12-month period would probably satisfy the needs of most DVC members who need an AP to make multiple yearly Disney trips cost-effective.
> Plus, instead of a total blackout during a a peak period (like Christmas) on DVC-discounted passes, just charge a reasonable premium to access that period.


Why is everyone so willing to give things back to Disney which we already pay a premium for? “Oh if only Disney would bring back APs, I’d be ok with them only being good for 13 days of which half have to fall on full moons, and requires Chapek to spank my behind when entering the parks for being a naughty low value guest”. No.  I don’t want neutered APs.  Disney isn’t some struggling business that I have to feel sorry for and make concessions so they can be profitable.  I want the exact same APs we had, nothing more, nothing less.

It’s one of the reasons we are in this situation, because people don’t have the fortitude.  I’m to blame also.  When APs came back and were 40 percent more expensive with no discounts, I should have walked.  But I rationalized that since I go almost 20 days a year it was still worth it.  Companies will keep pushing until we push back.  I’m in no place to demand anything from Disney, but I have self respect and have drawn my line in the sand.  Change the APs again to be way more expensive or less useful, or don’t bring them back and I’m gone.  I hope I’m not alone.


----------



## Sandisw

lowlight said:


> Why is everyone so willing to give things back to Disney which we already pay a premium for? “Oh if only Disney would bring back APs, I’d be ok with them only being good for 13 days of which half have to fall on full moons, and requires Chapek to spank my behind when entering the parks for being a naughty low value guest”. No.  I don’t want neutered APs.  Disney isn’t some struggling business that I have to feel sorry for and make concessions so they can be profitable.  I want the exact same APs we had, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> It’s one of the reasons we are in this situation, because people don’t have the fortitude.  I’m to blame also.  When APs came back and were 40 percent more expensive with no discounts, I should have walked.  But I rationalized that since I go almost 20 days a year it was still worth it.  Companies will keep pushing until we push back.  I’m in no place to demand anything from Disney, but I have self respect and have drawn my line in the sand.  Change the APs again to be way more expensive or less useful, or don’t bring them back and I’m gone.  I hope I’m not alone.



I completely agree that everyone has to make their own judgements on how to accept or not accept the changes Disney or any company makes

But it is still a personal choice and has nothing to do with self respect but just different levels of what one needs to still make Disney enjoyable.

If DPEP decided to discontinue the AP altogether...they will lose guests from all sectors because it is a big money maker between DVC, FL residents and regular repeat cash guests.

That is why I believe they will be back because this impacts way more than just owners of DVC.


----------



## sheilafri

Isamar said:


> I’ve thought about this too. They could offer tiers of AP’s that entitle you to different numbers of visits within a 12-month period. For example, I think a pass for 30 or 45 park days in a 12-month period would probably satisfy the needs of most DVC members who need an AP to make multiple yearly Disney trips cost-effective.
> Plus, instead of a total blackout during a a peak period (like Christmas) on DVC-discounted passes, just charge a reasonable premium to access that period.


This is an intriguing idea.  Thirty days is certainly enough for me and I don’t even own DVC.   I’m not sure how it would tie in with using reservations to control park capacity.


----------



## TiggerBouncy

Sandisw said:


> That is why I believe they will be back because this impacts way more than just owners of DVC.



Change is the only constant in the universe. The only question in my mind is how long for that change to come about and if I can weather the storm until we come out on the other end.

So far, my safety line is well secured on the ship; I am not in danger of being knocked off by a rogue wave.  Whether I cut the line and jump off the ship is always a possibility, but I am not there yet. 

TBH my issues with Disney right now are more in other areas (such as woke) which would start a whole different fight on the boards, so lets just steer clear of that.    But if I chose to abandon ship, that would be more the reason.

AP's... It's hard to draw my line in the sand there only because in all the years I have been a DVC member, I only had AP's for maybe a third of them. I would be all for a ticket that would work my way.  That's not me giving up my self respect, or compromising, or anything.  If Disney offers a product more geared to the way I vacation, why would I have a problem with that?


----------



## lowlight

TiggerBouncy said:


> AP's... It's hard to draw my line in the sand there only because in all the years I have been a DVC member, I only had AP's for maybe a third of them. I would be all for a ticket that would work my way.  That's not me giving up my self respect, or compromising, or anything.  If Disney offers a product more geared to the way I vacation, why would I have a problem with that?



 Saying if it doesn’t affect you then you don’t care what they do is just counter to the way I choose to live my life, but I understand not everyone feels that way and didn’t mean to sound so judgmental, it is more frustration than judgment.  Apes together strong.


----------



## Greyhound22

Question .... My wife and I just moved to FL and aren't happy (like most) about the AP suspension. Waited my entire Disney-life and now can't even purchase a decent AP. 

I plan to purchase the "Pixie Dust" AP or just a 4-day pass for our trip in June. If I did one over the other, would I be able to put the amount of the regular tickets or PD-AP towards a Sorcerer AP, if they begin selling again. Or even possibly if they change and offer another type of AP? IOW, am I better off if AP do come back to do the regular 4-day tickets or buy the PD-AP??? TIA!


----------



## Madame

Greyhound22 said:


> Question .... My wife and I just moved to FL and aren't happy (like most) about the AP suspension. Waited my entire Disney-life and now can't even purchase a decent AP.
> 
> I plan to purchase the "Pixie Dust" AP or just a 4-day pass for our trip in June. If I did one over the other, would I be able to put the amount of the regular tickets or PD-AP towards a Sorcerer AP, if they begin selling again. Or even possibly if they change and offer another type of AP? IOW, am I better off if AP do come back to do the regular 4-day tickets or buy the PD-AP??? TIA!


I don’t know the answer, but would leave the purchase as late as possible in hopes there is movement on APs…


----------



## TiggerBouncy

lowlight said:


> Saying if it doesn’t affect you then you don’t care what they do is just counter to the way I choose to live my life, but I understand not everyone feels that way and didn’t mean to sound so judgmental, it is more frustration than judgment.  Apes together strong.



That's a tough call, my friend.  There are a lot of causes that people get upset about and I would love to show my support for.  But I am not going to abandon my 50K+ investment in Disney because they made a temporary business decision that someone else is upset about.

It's one thing if your asking me to stop drinking as much of some particular soda because they are supporting terrorists (not saying anyone is).  It's another to ask me to sell my piece of property because they made a business decision that although it has an effect on me, I have decided I can live with, but others may not.

That's a personal choice - and although I defend your right to make your choice, I also defend my right to make mine. It's not fair to ask me to sell my investment because of your choice. But I entirely understand your frustration and if you decide to leave, I get the reason why.  I will even express my frustration on your behalf to Disney if ever asked or given the choice of presenting my opinion. So, yeah - I feel ya.


----------



## pianomanzano

Sandisw said:


> At this point, since they have not returned, I am definitely thinking it’s this over capacity alone.
> 
> Park reservations system is here to stay so this will shape things IMO in the terms and conditions moving forward in how they sell APs and their use. So it makes sense to me to  why they have not returned them to sale until this outcome is decided.


Is there even a basis for a similar lawsuit at WDW? I haven't looked at AP reservations availability since our last trip in February, but I don't ever recall there ever being a completely "sold out" day for AP reservations, maybe a couple days where it was just select parks but not for all 4 parks. But we do see days where parks are sold out from the ticketing side.


----------



## CaptainAmerica

New Mouse said:


> I can't sell you a Maserati and then put a Ford engine inside it and tell you it was In the contact so too bad.


???

Yes you can.


----------



## lowlight

TiggerBouncy said:


> That's a tough call, my friend.  There are a lot of causes that people get upset about and I would love to show my support for.  But I am not going to abandon my 50K+ investment in Disney because they made a temporary business decision that someone else is upset about.
> 
> It's one thing if your asking me to stop drinking as much of some particular soda because they are supporting terrorists (not saying anyone is).  It's another to ask me to sell my piece of property because they made a business decision that although it has an effect on me, I have decided I can live with, but others may not.
> 
> That's a personal choice - and although I defend your right to make your choice, I also defend my right to make mine. It's not fair to ask me to sell my investment because of your choice. But I entirely understand your frustration and if you decide to leave, I get the reason why.  I will even express my frustration on your behalf to Disney if ever asked or given the choice of presenting my opinion. So, yeah - I feel ya.



The original statement I made was in response to someone saying they’d be ok if Disney changed APs to just a set number of days per year.  I don’t expect anyone to sell their timeshare to prove a point. I only meant that even if it doesn’t affect them personally, ie they only go 14 days a year and would be ok with Disney changing APs to that, that they should still voice their displeasure at Disney even if it doesn’t affect their usage pattern. Less for more should be something all Disney fans unify against whether they can afford it or not.  For me personally, I said I would sell my APs if they are discontinued. I never expected anyone else to, but I hope more would.   I don’t expect APs to be discontinued, so this is all a moot point.


----------



## TiggerBouncy

lowlight said:


> The original statement I made was in response to someone saying they’d be ok if Disney changed APs to just a set number of days per year.  I don’t expect anyone to sell their timeshare to prove a point. I only meant that even if it doesn’t affect them personally, ie they only go 14 days a year and would be ok with Disney changing APs to that, that they should still voice their displeasure at Disney even if it doesn’t affect their usage pattern. Less for more should be something all Disney fans unify against whether they can afford it or not.  For me personally, I said I would sell my APs if they are discontinued. I never expected anyone else to, but I hope more would.   I don’t expect APs to be discontinued, so this is all a moot point.



Ok, yeah - I follow you. As mentioned, I am unhappy they have discontinued AP's, but I suspect that's only temporary (as I said, Change is the only constant). But if they come back and they offer a lot less for the same price, I completely get that a lot of people will be very upset, and hopefully everyone will give their feedback in appropriate ways.  

It would not shock me if - when AP's come back - they come back at a price increase.  Hopefully Disney will also offer different options which - for a reduced price - will meet the way others vacation and I think the # of days is a solid option (basically it's not an AP, but a 14 day ticket with a year long expiration which I think makes total sense and I would hop right on board that train). 

Personally, I think Disney as a whole is facing an existential question of quality vs quantity of guests and I feel that they are leaning toward quality (which I am personally ok with). But that's just my personal opinion. Only time will tell.


----------



## RoseGold

Greyhound22 said:


> I plan to purchase the "Pixie Dust" AP or just a 4-day pass for our trip in June. If I did one over the other, would I be able to put the amount of the regular tickets or PD-AP towards a Sorcerer AP, if they begin selling again. Or even possibly if they change and offer another type of AP? IOW, am I better off if AP do come back to do the regular 4-day tickets or buy the PD-AP??? TIA!



You used to be able to pay the difference to upgrade.  Who knows what system will come back

As a Florida resident, I'd be sure to buy the Pixie Dust pass.  The fact that they held on to that pass shows me they plan to keep a very restricted Florida pass of some kind.  As a FL resident, I'd want to be in the renewal bucket if this all shuts down.  I actually would buy sooner than later, in case they yank that one too.  It's a no brainer over 4 day tickets IMO, if nothing else you get the hopper and the AP discounts.


----------



## Miffy

Sandisw said:


> Of course there are some people who bought knowing that the gold AP was offered,
> 
> I added my adult kids in 2019 when I bought RIV so they would be blue card owners and have access to that AP.
> 
> But I also knew it could go away anytime and so far, only 3 of 9 of us have gotten them.  I am certainly not angry about it because I was aware of it and I knew that DVC has no control over any ticket offerings.
> 
> So, if they never return, then we gambled and won’t end up with the long term savings we had hoped we would get.  They will still get whatever perks there are and that 20% discount on merchandise and 10% off meals most places will be something that they wouldn’t have had we not added them.
> 
> Again, I completely get frustration and disappointment but I am just not one who blames Disney for having given me a benefit that I knew was not guaranteed and now find it gone.


But, @Sandisw, there's currently no AP available for purchase. So, forgetting the DVC discount, a DVC owner can't even purchase a regular out-of-state AP. I could see this making a big difference for out-of-state DVC owners who like going to the parks. I don't own DVC since it was never in my budget, but I do have an out-of-state AP that I've kept renewing, and I'm glad I did since the ticket prices are so crazy-expensive now that the also-expensive AP seems like a bargain (of sorts).


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

lowlight said:


> The issue with this is, I don't want to concede one more got dang thing to Disney.  I've conceded dozens of things in the past few years in the name of "pandemic" or "short staffing" or "shortages" or "high demand" or "inflation" or just plain "Disney wanting a higher spending park visitor", the list goes on.  I don't want to offer Disney a way to realize more profit on something that is already very profitable.  Sure, they can make it for on-site stays only, or make it limited to a certain number of days a year, or a bunch of things, but the AP is the last "value" item left in the ENTIRE universe of Disney, and even then, it had 40% of it's value chewed out when it changed from Gold to Sorcerer.  I have no way of stopping Disney from doing anything, and even if a hundred people agreed and left with me it wouldn't even be a blip on the balance sheet, but I won't pay more for it, or accept it when it's rebirthed as a more limited product at a higher cost.  Disney has poked and prodded me for the past few years with price increases and I smile through clenched teeth each time, but this would be the proverbial straw, and I say that as a blue card member.  Raise the price on Mickey Bars to $9 for all I care, but when you start artificially gating how many times I can come to a park that's, I guess coincidentally, on the same property as the property you leased to me as a "second home", it's over.  "Welcome home, but not for that long of a stay!" It's almost like that movie where the guy has to maintain a certain adrenaline level or his heart stops, except it's Chapek and if he doesn't maintain a certain profit level, he self combusts.



Just read a blip on another site that Iger & Chapek are no longer in touch about ANYTHING. I had hoped Iger could at least be his Jiminy Cricket for awhile longer to remind Chapek, described as having ZERO "emotional intelligence", that his company was BUILT on emotion AND intelligence. I'm afraid we really are alone in this fight vs RobotMan. 

As to the lawsuit, I'd guess Chapek's legal team is happy to gamble- Hoping for a win rather than settle to give in on even a penny.

And if we all dump our DVC, THEY benefit....ROFR & resell whenever depending on their future needs & plans. 

None of this 'feels' good.
PS. I'm a shareholder as well. I DO NOT WANT ONE DISNEY DOLLAR if my profit means this company will become unrecognizable in a few years.


----------



## RoseGold

Mai Ku Tiki said:


> And if we all dump our DVC, THEY benefit....ROFR & resell whenever depending on their future needs & plans.



I'm not sure this is true.  Their goal is direct sales.  If there are no APs, who is buying this at all?  I know I wouldn't have touched it if I weren't able to buy an AP.  Unless you think they are planning to ROFR and use the rooms for cash, which completely defeats the whole business model.

I even think the APs could be Blue Card only, or really expensive, or on site only, or really limited, and that would be enough. But plenty of buyers need an AP, direct or resale.


----------



## Matt'sMom

Many, many years ago WDW had an offer that was basically a package where tickets were included for length of stay at a Disney resort.  Your admissions began date of check in and were good thru midnight of the date you checked out.  And the length of stay park pass pricing was slightly less than the gate prices, in order to encourage on site guests to stay and play at WDW (rather than splitting their money between Disney and other local parks/attractions).

I could definitely see the possibility of something similar being offered for out-of-state DVC members, as an alternative to APs.   Most out-of-state DVC members simply want/need park access while vacationing on site at WDW as opposed to spur of the moment access on any given day of the year (such as local Florida APs tend to use).  I believe a length of stay pass, connected to DVC on site stays, would be an ideal solution to the issue. 

My guess is the actuaries are already looking at what will be most profitable.


----------



## tjkraz

Mai Ku Tiki said:


> And if we all dump our DVC, THEY benefit....ROFR & resell whenever depending on their future needs & plans.



Well, there's no point in Disney using ROFR unless there are buyers. They cannot afford to alienate everyone. 

The problem is that YOUR idea of Walt Disney World is different from MY idea of Walt Disney World. And both of our WDW is different from millions of others. It's conceivable that the parks are in the early stages of some consumer revolt which will not become clear for several years. Paul Pressler did a lot of damage in the '90s which took years to dig out of. 

But right now, crowds are high (in spite of Genie+ and no APs), restaurants are full (despite no dining plans) and people are tripping over themselves to buy Grand Floridian DVC points. Until WDW feels pain which extends beyond message boards, they  have no reason to change. This could be the "new norm" that people are willing to accept.


----------



## Sandisw

Miffy said:


> But, @Sandisw, there's currently no AP available for purchase. So, forgetting the DVC discount, a DVC owner can't even purchase a regular out-of-state AP. I could see this making a big difference for out-of-state DVC owners who like going to the parks. I don't own DVC since it was never in my budget, but I do have an out-of-state AP that I've kept renewing, and I'm glad I did since the ticket prices are so crazy-expensive now that the also-expensive AP seems like a bargain (of sorts).



That is very true and my response was more that having the ability to purchase an AP..whether at a discount or not,..is not something that is DVC related.

It is parks related and anyone who relies on them is in the same boat, whether you own DVC or. It.

It is frustrating and disappointing they have suspended the program. No question and I didn’t mean ti sound like I am minimizing the frustration. 

But I have seen posts (not this thread) that people felt because they bought DVC they should be entitled to the AP now even if others are not.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

RoseGold said:


> I'm not sure this is true.  Their goal is direct sales.  If there are no APs, who is buying this at all?  I know I wouldn't have touched it if I weren't able to buy an AP.  Unless you think they are planning to ROFR and use the rooms for cash, which completely defeats the whole business model.
> 
> I even think the APs could be Blue Card only, or really expensive, or on site only, or really limited, and that would be enough. But plenty of buyers need an AP, direct or resale.


I see your point...I'm just speculating above bc WHO really KNOWS? 

But since you mention the business model, I can imagine (Walt taught me how to do that  ) Chapek using funds to build out/refurb DVC properties now w/plans to eventually increase Cash Sales or even selling some (OKW/VBR/HHI/maybe even SSR?) to dump carrying costs & then evaluating that. Maybe years off, but I firmly believe Chapek's goal is to revamp the entire business model, not just DVC.
Remember when OKW was 1st built...THE perk was the AP. We were all led to believe (NOT PROMISED) that APs were THE best perk (aside from location) to buying DVC. I don't think Chapek is married to ANY of that.


----------



## Sandisw

RoseGold said:


> I'm not sure this is true.  Their goal is direct sales.  If there are no APs, who is buying this at all?  I know I wouldn't have touched it if I weren't able to buy an AP.  Unless you think they are planning to ROFR and use the rooms for cash, which completely defeats the whole business model.
> 
> I even think the APs could be Blue Card only, or really expensive, or on site only, or really limited, and that would be enough. But plenty of buyers need an AP, direct or resale.



I would venture to guess that average buyer starts out traveling and not buying the APs.

I personally know about 15 other DVC owners and not one of them goes more than once a year so no need for AP.

However, I agree that DPEP offering an AP option does enhance things and does allow people to travel more often, whether DVC or not.

As I have said, if DVD had the power to offer this to DVC owners as a way to support their sales, we would have access to something.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

tjkraz said:


> Well, there's no point in Disney using ROFR unless there are buyers. They cannot afford to alienate everyone.
> 
> The problem is that YOUR idea of Walt Disney World is different from MY idea of Walt Disney World. And both of our WDW is different from millions of others. It's conceivable that the parks are in the early stages of some consumer revolt which will not become clear for several years. Paul Pressler did a lot of damage in the '90s which took years to dig out of.
> 
> But right now, crowds are high (in spite of Genie+ and no APs), restaurants are full (despite no dining plans) and people are tripping over themselves to buy Grand Floridian DVC points. Until WDW feels pain which extends beyond message boards, they  have no reason to change. This could be the "new norm" that people are willing to accept.


I was responding to the those above me saying they would dump their DVC.
There is no certain future about any of this. There never was. When I bought 1st contract (since sold) renting points was prohibited & done on the sly. Resale market has also been permitted to evolve A LOT.
As to future sales, DVC could announce tomorrow an amazing discounted AP available ONLY to direct buyers ONLY for a certain Resort ONLY for a limited time while reducing perks to current Direct Buy owners. Anything goes.... And YES, Chapek is using short-term tactics but I'm increasingly convinced he has a long-term strategy. He DID finally respond to his recent political fiasco, so maybe certain pressures will impact his decisions so who knows??? 
I'm speculating, based on being a 40 yr shareholder, constant on-site guest since '72, frequent AP holder, DVC owner on/off since 2000, even retired to FLA to be near WDW (but since moved away); well aware my opinion is only mine.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

Sandisw said:


> I would venture to guess that average buyer starts out traveling and not buying the APs.
> 
> I personally know about 15 other DVC owners and not one of them goes more than once a year so no need for AP.
> 
> However, I agree that DPEP offering an AP option does enhance things and does allow people to travel more often, whether DVC or not.
> 
> As I have said, if DVD had the power to offer this to DVC owners as a way to support their sales, we would have access to something.


Agree. 
It's always concerned me that DVD seems so powerless or even in competition with other sectors to obtain cooperation from DPEP.

I guess I fear Chapek is increasing that divide. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Momtomouselover

DVC contracts may say that perks are subject to change but it is and has been explicitly marketed as a benefit. Just the presence of a blue card vs white card speaks to the promise of a difference. I do know that I was told during tours and a sales pitch that perks include Moonlight Madness/Exclusive nights, APs, pool hopping and discounts among others (and by more than one guide). The discounts are not exclusive to DVC (and for that matter it’s variable whether they are exclusive to blue card holders and Moonlight Madness just returned). I don’t see how DVC sales can continue to market perks in the same way. No mention of benefits that aren’t available should be made or for that matter of historical benefits. Even the release of GF2 leaves Riviera on an island when it comes to booking limitations. 

The lack of discounted APs and the current environment has greatly effected my willingness to buy more points. I’m also not sad my points are resale. I’m not ready to sell, for that matter I have an AP, but If they want to sell more direct points vs resale I think some benefits will need to return. My two cents.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think you are getting close to the reason for suspending the AP sales in Disney World when you said, "Now, the lawsuit in CA regarding the AP there has merit in my book because while it did say it was subject to park availability, it did not say that was based on Disney deciding to offer those spots to others, IMO, that was and is deceptive."  I've been looking at the lawsuit and despite the unavailability language, I too think it might have traction.
> 
> If we can discover why Disney suspended sales, it might shed some light on when sales will return, if at all, and if there might be changes.
> 
> California has a fairly unique business practices law and that is one of the basis of this lawsuit that was filed as a putative class action lawsuit.  In this fairly unique business practices law, it allows for multiples in damages and the recovery of attorneys' fees and costs should the Plaintiff prevail.  Disney gave notice of removal and it was removed to federal court.  I am thinking the judge they drew is probably not considered favorable for Disney by court watchers.
> 
> I know when sales of new passes was halted, the media was full of articles saying they did it to control crowds during the busy holiday season.  The media made up the reason.  No person from Disney, who had authority to speak, ever said that.  So, strike that from the analysis.
> 
> The first significant event in the applicable timeline was Disney gave about 6 weeks notice that they would restart annual pass sales.  They gave notice on about August 4th for sales starting on September 8, 2021.  It is not like them to take action without notice.  But, when they stopped new sales it was without notice.  Something significant happened.
> 
> The second significant circumstance was when they started selling new annual passes again on September 8, 2021, it came with some different terms and conditions.  The park availability language was not new.  Maybe they strengthened the language, but it was not entirely new.  But, in the past, when admission was denied to a passholder it was due to reaching park capacity -- as defined by the Fire Marshall, serious storms, like Hurricane Irma. or other significant closure mandated by someone other than Disney's management preferences.  Past practices is an important legal concept when interpreting contracts.
> 
> Also, this time, there was something significant; passholders needed to have a park reservation to access the parks.  (That may have started earlier upon re-opening after the first big covid surge, but it was really significant when coupled with new annual passes going on sale.)  So, to recap, notice of new annual pass sales, and the park reservation system.  (The separate pricing of the water parks and photos was just so they didn't bundle and raise the prices even higher.  I'm okay with allowing annual passholders to customize their passes by breaking them out in line item pricing.  That is not reducing benefits.  That is allowing individual choice in line item pricing.)
> 
> The impact of park reservations is how they got into trouble.  Disney apparently did make statements about managing park experience with reference to crowds.  They talked about quality of experience.  Remember, they were just coming off of historically low park attendance due to covid restrictions and park attendance caps apparently set by governmental authorities.  But, this is Florida and the Governor DeSantis administration removed restrictions of that kind from businesses.
> 
> If any of you have ever been to a Disney park when it was closed to further admissions due orders of the Fire Marshall (wall to wall people), I can tell you, it is not just an inconvenience and long lines, it is downright scary.  This is when people pick up their children out of the strollers and carry them above their heads.  You can't see anywhere.  The crowd presses in on you and you cannot move forwards or in any direction.  You try to get to the side up against a wall or building.  Panic is a real possibility and trampling is a very high risk.  Every Disney employee was there trying to move the massive crowd and I could see the fear on their faces.  I have been in that more than once in Disneyland and a crowd too big, but not that scary at Disney World.  For high risk of litigation purposes, this would be a situation that the highest level of management at any of the Disney parks would do just about anything to prevent.  One of the things they have done -- and rightfully so -- is to lower the cap.  We should all be very grateful for that.  So, interpreting the Disney-speak, when they say they are trying to manage a quality experience, that's why the park capacities have been lowered.  Also factor in 2 years of covid lock-downs and the biggest travel surge in history that shows no signs of letting up yet -- and they are so very right to control the capacity in their parks.
> 
> When Disney started selling new passes last September, they were using the "bucket" system of allocated spaces.  One bucket for tickets, one bucket for resorts and one bucket for all of the types of passholders.  Now, Disney has always seen annual passholders as sort of a "space available" guest to fill in the gaps.  But, lately, they had new data that indicated the ticket holders or resort guests spent more per individual per park day.  Whether we like that characterization or not, it is a fact that motivates Disney top management, who are accountable to shareholders.  So, for the first time, Disney tried to keep annual passholders in the space available slots by controlling the allocations in the passholder bucket.  What Ms. Neilsen discovered, in California is that her no-blockout annual pass could not get a park reservation when the ticketed and resort guests (the higher spenders) could!  Disney had prioritized the highest profit guest over their (space - available) passholder guests.  Lower caps on park maximum attendance meant thousands and tens of thousands of few spaces for passholders.
> 
> Ms. Nielsen filed a he lawsuit was filed on November 9, 2021.  Less than a week later, Disney filed a Notice of Removal to federal court.  So, we know Disney's attorneys were into this immediately and considered it serious.  Disney then, on November 21, 2021, just five days after removal, gave notice that their Incredi-pass, Sorcerer and Pirate were "unavailable" to new sales, but kept the right of renewal for existing passholders and still allowed the Pixie Dust pass.
> 
> By allowing the right of renewal for existing passholders, it limited the pool of possible plaintiffs in the class action suit.  They were already there.  The lawsuit focuses on the AP blockout dates vs the park reservation system.  So, since the new passes were only on sale from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, it shut off adding additional people to the group of people that might have been damaged by their sale of annual passes with various levels of blockout dates.  What Disney did was sell passes with defined blockout dates and then due solely to their own authority -- added additional blockout dates by having too few spaces in the passholder bucket.  What their lawyers told them is, Mr. Chapek, when you sell an annual pass with blockout dates, you are telling that person they can come on the days not blocked out.  Not every passholder will come on every date that is not blocked out, but maybe 20% of them will.  So, you have already sold those dates to 20% of your eligible passholders.  You cannot therefore sell those spaces again to new ticket buyers or prioritize resort guests.  That was what was deceptive; the blockout date availability was being given to ticket holders or resort guests simply because Disney preferred them.  It was solely within the control and discretion of Disney and against the express terms of the passholder contract that listed specific blockout dates.  In law, the specific governs the general.  The unavailability language is a general clause and the calendar of blockout dates per pass type is the specific language.  So the blockout dates governs the unavailability language.  Otherwise Disney could sell passes and tell us there is no availability until 2025.
> 
> One of the things Disney is doing right now with the reservation system is gathering data on how many passholders attend their parks on which days.  They will find out if it is 20% or as in California 50% of the crowd consists of passholders.
> 
> The reason Disney decided to keep the Pixie Pass is because it blocks out the high attendance days -- every major and minor holiday, spring break and every weekend.  It forces those passholders into the "space available" days; as Disney intended passholders to use.  (It also may have been a condition of their development permits that they had to provide some kind of park access privilege to Florida residents.  That is not an uncommon conditions on high entertainment land use decisions by local government to offset impacts of quality of life for locals.  So, that may be why Disney keeps the lower prices passes to locals in both Florida and California.)
> 
> Now, litigation like this can generally take years.  The person who said park passes may come back next year may or may not have had official Disney information.  I suspect not.  They did have the reservation system and the annual passes in existence together only from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, so that is a short time.  They reduced their risk that way.
> 
> So, why the renewals of current passholders?  Because since they had to cap the park capacity numbers (due to the post covid travel surge) and cannot control through their bucket system (the litigation), then the only other way to control is to control the actual number of annual passes sold!  Yes.  I have seen other bloggers pick up on this.  The indicators are out there that the actual number of annual passes are limited.  They use the word "unavailable" for Disney World and "sold out" for Disneyland.  Disneyland has over a million outstanding APs!  They will be sold out for years to reduce that number through attrition.  Disney World has fewer, but I suspect that with every angry person who will not renew - another annual pass goes back on the shelf.  When they have enough, they will re-open sales again -- for a short time -- until those are gone -- and then they will stop again.  Disney does not want to be oversold on annual passes so the best time to cut it off was now.  They tried to use the reservation system to close the gates, but it failed.  So, now they will close the doors another way.
> 
> Another thing that supports my observations and theories is that after the Christmas holiday crowds, there have been some crowded times.  During all of those, there was park pass unavailability for ticket holders and resort guests, but not for the annual passholders.  That tells me their lawyers have advised Disney in the strongest possible terms that they cannot use the park reservation system to reduce the number of passholders in the parks.  Passholders have already bought and paid for that availability.  So, that's the good news for passholders.  But, trust me, you do not want those parks so crowded they are at Fire Marshall capacity caps ever again!
> 
> What about DVC members?  You are important to them or they would not have started selling new properties as DVC.  They will come up with something for you.  I do think, however that they will continue to have some Florida resident access as well.  I would have to wade through their original local government permitting docs to be certain and I am not going to get that deep into it.
> 
> So, those are my thoughts.  When will they do it?  Probably when they figure out what percentage of passholders attend the parks and when.  Pass sales may become seasonal or annual.  For my planning, I am going to budget for tickets during the holiday seasons no matter what pass tier I have.  Focus on this and you will see where they are going:  (1) Limits on the number of annual passes outstanding at any time, (2) Reduced park capacities for safety reasons and (3) Passholders were always meant to be space available guests.


----------



## Madame

WDW has *made* parks crowded (in part due to wanting to maximize profits).  Reduced hours, Genie and ticket prices making visitors feel they need to stay in park to justify the ridiculous cost.  

There are other contributors such as meet & greets cancellation due to covid, restaurants not running at capacity sending people to QS and clogging those etc.

This is partially of their own making.  If they do away with APs or limit when they are available, we will have to sell.  The price was already ridiculous and only increasing… I think I finally found my line in the sand.  Good to know there is a cure for Disneyitis


----------



## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> What about DVC members? You are important to them or they would not have started selling new properties as DVC. They will come up with something for you.



There has been zero indication they will come up with anything for DVC.  DVC is actively selling a new property and has announced nothing about DVC APs or any kind of Blue Card tickets.  There wasn't even a DVC discount on the Incredipass for the short period of time it was sold.   They've had months to come up with some kind of solution, and silence.


----------



## corpcomp

Mai Ku Tiki said:


> Agree.
> It's always concerned me that DVD seems so powerless or even in competition with other sectors to obtain cooperation from DPEP.
> 
> I guess I fear Chapek is increasing that divide. Hope I'm wrong.


From what I've read in CNBC, you are not wrong. Consolidating P&L responsibility across multiple divisions from those division leaders into one direct report reminds me of the GE disaster when Jack Welch passed leadership to Jeff Immelt. Stock dropped drastically for years.


----------



## cheryl.UK

We are UK based DVCers and we are really struggling.  The cost of flights over to WDW are our biggest expense so we only visit once a year but we do come fro 3 weeks.  Not only did they stop selling APs but also the 3 week UK pass so this year we are stuck. We weren't planning on doing Universal this year and can't afford accommodation other than DVC.  We won't have a car so we are faced with 7 resort days with the odd trip off site via Uber.  The 14 day UK pass is about $750 each.  If I hadn't already booked flights, I'd cancel this year.  If they don't bring back APs for next year, we won't be going.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

corpcomp said:


> From what I've read in CNBC, you are not wrong. Consolidating P&L responsibility across multiple divisions from those division leaders into one direct report reminds me of the GE disaster when Jack Welch passed leadership to Jeff Immelt. Stock dropped drastically for years.



Yep. Amazes me how much the CNBC hosts are into Disney...but here is the latest for those who missed it. (Hope linking is ok?) Iger is DONE with Chapek. His tweet opposing Chapek's $$ support of DeSantis Gay bill was the icing, I think. 
We're all alone in this battle now. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/20/disney-ceo-chapek-iger-falling-out.html


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

cheryl.UK said:


> We are UK based DVCers and we are really struggling.  The cost of flights over to WDW are our biggest expense so we only visit once a year but we do come fro 3 weeks.  Not only did they stop selling APs but also the 3 week UK pass so this year we are stuck. We weren't planning on doing Universal this year and can't afford accommodation other than DVC.  We won't have a car so we are faced with 7 resort days with the odd trip off site via Uber.  The 14 day UK pass is about $750 each.  If I hadn't already booked flights, I'd cancel this year.  If they don't bring back APs for next year, we won't be going.


I'm running into similar trying to return again to visit more of UK....Big change in flat-rental costs...$$$   
It's really a shame for those who bought DVC incorporating cost of APs as part of the "Pre-Paid Vacations" DVC often uses as a selling tool. It's true they NEVER promised FOREVER on anything, but it's also true that thousands bought DVC based upon what had existed for a decade or two.

So sorry. At least if pool-hopping was back, a few days spent at different resorts is fun.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

Mai Ku Tiki said:


> Just read a blip on another site that Iger & Chapek are no longer in touch about ANYTHING. I had hoped Iger could at least be his Jiminy Cricket for awhile longer to remind Chapek, described as having ZERO "emotional intelligence", that his company was BUILT on emotion AND intelligence. I'm afraid we really are alone in this fight vs RobotMan.
> 
> As to the lawsuit, I'd guess Chapek's legal team is happy to gamble- Hoping for a win rather than settle to give in on even a penny.
> 
> And if we all dump our DVC, THEY benefit....ROFR & resell whenever depending on their future needs & plans.
> 
> None of this 'feels' good.
> PS. I'm a shareholder as well. I DO NOT WANT ONE DISNEY DOLLAR if my profit means this company will become unrecognizable in a few years.



I had that pop up too.  The other snippet I gleaned is that Chapeks contract is up in Feb 2023.  One can hope......


----------



## SL6827

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think you are getting close to the reason for suspending the AP sales in Disney World when you said, "Now, the lawsuit in CA regarding the AP there has merit in my book because while it did say it was subject to park availability, it did not say that was based on Disney deciding to offer those spots to others, IMO, that was and is deceptive."  I've been looking at the lawsuit and despite the unavailability language, I too think it might have traction.
> 
> If we can discover why Disney suspended sales, it might shed some light on when sales will return, if at all, and if there might be changes.
> 
> California has a fairly unique business practices law and that is one of the basis of this lawsuit that was filed as a putative class action lawsuit.  In this fairly unique business practices law, it allows for multiples in damages and the recovery of attorneys' fees and costs should the Plaintiff prevail.  Disney gave notice of removal and it was removed to federal court.  I am thinking the judge they drew is probably not considered favorable for Disney by court watchers.
> 
> I know when sales of new passes was halted, the media was full of articles saying they did it to control crowds during the busy holiday season.  The media made up the reason.  No person from Disney, who had authority to speak, ever said that.  So, strike that from the analysis.
> 
> The first significant event in the applicable timeline was Disney gave about 6 weeks notice that they would restart annual pass sales.  They gave notice on about August 4th for sales starting on September 8, 2021.  It is not like them to take action without notice.  But, when they stopped new sales it was without notice.  Something significant happened.
> 
> The second significant circumstance was when they started selling new annual passes again on September 8, 2021, it came with some different terms and conditions.  The park availability language was not new.  Maybe they strengthened the language, but it was not entirely new.  But, in the past, when admission was denied to a passholder it was due to reaching park capacity -- as defined by the Fire Marshall, serious storms, like Hurricane Irma. or other significant closure mandated by someone other than Disney's management preferences.  Past practices is an important legal concept when interpreting contracts.
> 
> Also, this time, there was something significant; passholders needed to have a park reservation to access the parks.  (That may have started earlier upon re-opening after the first big covid surge, but it was really significant when coupled with new annual passes going on sale.)  So, to recap, notice of new annual pass sales, and the park reservation system.  (The separate pricing of the water parks and photos was just so they didn't bundle and raise the prices even higher.  I'm okay with allowing annual passholders to customize their passes by breaking them out in line item pricing.  That is not reducing benefits.  That is allowing individual choice in line item pricing.)
> 
> The impact of park reservations is how they got into trouble.  Disney apparently did make statements about managing park experience with reference to crowds.  They talked about quality of experience.  Remember, they were just coming off of historically low park attendance due to covid restrictions and park attendance caps apparently set by governmental authorities.  But, this is Florida and the Governor DeSantis administration removed restrictions of that kind from businesses.
> 
> If any of you have ever been to a Disney park when it was closed to further admissions due orders of the Fire Marshall (wall to wall people), I can tell you, it is not just an inconvenience and long lines, it is downright scary.  This is when people pick up their children out of the strollers and carry them above their heads.  You can't see anywhere.  The crowd presses in on you and you cannot move forwards or in any direction.  You try to get to the side up against a wall or building.  Panic is a real possibility and trampling is a very high risk.  Every Disney employee was there trying to move the massive crowd and I could see the fear on their faces.  I have been in that more than once in Disneyland and a crowd too big, but not that scary at Disney World.  For high risk of litigation purposes, this would be a situation that the highest level of management at any of the Disney parks would do just about anything to prevent.  One of the things they have done -- and rightfully so -- is to lower the cap.  We should all be very grateful for that.  So, interpreting the Disney-speak, when they say they are trying to manage a quality experience, that's why the park capacities have been lowered.  Also factor in 2 years of covid lock-downs and the biggest travel surge in history that shows no signs of letting up yet -- and they are so very right to control the capacity in their parks.
> 
> When Disney started selling new passes last September, they were using the "bucket" system of allocated spaces.  One bucket for tickets, one bucket for resorts and one bucket for all of the types of passholders.  Now, Disney has always seen annual passholders as sort of a "space available" guest to fill in the gaps.  But, lately, they had new data that indicated the ticket holders or resort guests spent more per individual per park day.  Whether we like that characterization or not, it is a fact that motivates Disney top management, who are accountable to shareholders.  So, for the first time, Disney tried to keep annual passholders in the space available slots by controlling the allocations in the passholder bucket.  What Ms. Neilsen discovered, in California is that her no-blockout annual pass could not get a park reservation when the ticketed and resort guests (the higher spenders) could!  Disney had prioritized the highest profit guest over their (space - available) passholder guests.  Lower caps on park maximum attendance meant thousands and tens of thousands of few spaces for passholders.
> 
> Ms. Nielsen filed a he lawsuit was filed on November 9, 2021.  Less than a week later, Disney filed a Notice of Removal to federal court.  So, we know Disney's attorneys were into this immediately and considered it serious.  Disney then, on November 21, 2021, just five days after removal, gave notice that their Incredi-pass, Sorcerer and Pirate were "unavailable" to new sales, but kept the right of renewal for existing passholders and still allowed the Pixie Dust pass.
> 
> By allowing the right of renewal for existing passholders, it limited the pool of possible plaintiffs in the class action suit.  They were already there.  The lawsuit focuses on the AP blockout dates vs the park reservation system.  So, since the new passes were only on sale from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, it shut off adding additional people to the group of people that might have been damaged by their sale of annual passes with various levels of blockout dates.  What Disney did was sell passes with defined blockout dates and then due solely to their own authority -- added additional blockout dates by having too few spaces in the passholder bucket.  What their lawyers told them is, Mr. Chapek, when you sell an annual pass with blockout dates, you are telling that person they can come on the days not blocked out.  Not every passholder will come on every date that is not blocked out, but maybe 20% of them will.  So, you have already sold those dates to 20% of your eligible passholders.  You cannot therefore sell those spaces again to new ticket buyers or prioritize resort guests.  That was what was deceptive; the blockout date availability was being given to ticket holders or resort guests simply because Disney preferred them.  It was solely within the control and discretion of Disney and against the express terms of the passholder contract that listed specific blockout dates.  In law, the specific governs the general.  The unavailability language is a general clause and the calendar of blockout dates per pass type is the specific language.  So the blockout dates governs the unavailability language.  Otherwise Disney could sell passes and tell us there is no availability until 2025.
> 
> One of the things Disney is doing right now with the reservation system is gathering data on how many passholders attend their parks on which days.  They will find out if it is 20% or as in California 50% of the crowd consists of passholders.
> 
> The reason Disney decided to keep the Pixie Pass is because it blocks out the high attendance days -- every major and minor holiday, spring break and every weekend.  It forces those passholders into the "space available" days; as Disney intended passholders to use.  (It also may have been a condition of their development permits that they had to provide some kind of park access privilege to Florida residents.  That is not an uncommon conditions on high entertainment land use decisions by local government to offset impacts of quality of life for locals.  So, that may be why Disney keeps the lower prices passes to locals in both Florida and California.)
> 
> Now, litigation like this can generally take years.  The person who said park passes may come back next year may or may not have had official Disney information.  I suspect not.  They did have the reservation system and the annual passes in existence together only from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, so that is a short time.  They reduced their risk that way.
> 
> So, why the renewals of current passholders?  Because since they had to cap the park capacity numbers (due to the post covid travel surge) and cannot control through their bucket system (the litigation), then the only other way to control is to control the actual number of annual passes sold!  Yes.  I have seen other bloggers pick up on this.  The indicators are out there that the actual number of annual passes are limited.  They use the word "unavailable" for Disney World and "sold out" for Disneyland.  Disneyland has over a million outstanding APs!  They will be sold out for years to reduce that number through attrition.  Disney World has fewer, but I suspect that with every angry person who will not renew - another annual pass goes back on the shelf.  When they have enough, they will re-open sales again -- for a short time -- until those are gone -- and then they will stop again.  Disney does not want to be oversold on annual passes so the best time to cut it off was now.  They tried to use the reservation system to close the gates, but it failed.  So, now they will close the doors another way.
> 
> Another thing that supports my observations and theories is that after the Christmas holiday crowds, there have been some crowded times.  During all of those, there was park pass unavailability for ticket holders and resort guests, but not for the annual passholders.  That tells me their lawyers have advised Disney in the strongest possible terms that they cannot use the park reservation system to reduce the number of passholders in the parks.  Passholders have already bought and paid for that availability.  So, that's the good news for passholders.  But, trust me, you do not want those parks so crowded they are at Fire Marshall capacity caps ever again!
> 
> What about DVC members?  You are important to them or they would not have started selling new properties as DVC.  They will come up with something for you.  I do think, however that they will continue to have some Florida resident access as well.  I would have to wade through their original local government permitting docs to be certain and I am not going to get that deep into it.
> 
> So, those are my thoughts.  When will they do it?  Probably when they figure out what percentage of passholders attend the parks and when.  Pass sales may become seasonal or annual.  For my planning, I am going to budget for tickets during the holiday seasons no matter what pass tier I have.  Focus on this and you will see where they are going:  (1) Limits on the number of annual passes outstanding at any time, (2) Reduced park capacities for safety reasons and (3) Passholders were always meant to be space available guests.


I never read post that are this length, but I couldn't stop with this one.  Good job.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

KAT4DISNEY said:


> I had that pop up too.  The other snippet I gleaned is that Chapeks contract is up in Feb 2023.  One can hope......



We can all can keep up the pressure. Many CM groups seem equally, if not more unhappy.


----------



## corpcomp

Ms Bibbidi said:


> So, those are my thoughts. When will they do it? Probably when they figure out what percentage of passholders attend the parks and when. Pass sales may become seasonal or annual. For my planning, I am going to budget for tickets during the holiday seasons no matter what pass tier I have. Focus on this and you will see where they are going: (1) Limits on the number of annual passes outstanding at any time, (2) Reduced park capacities for safety reasons and (3) Passholders were always meant to be space available guests.




Did not even think they might make APs seasonal. OMG help us all in that case.


----------



## Sandisw

corpcomp said:


> So, those are my thoughts.  When will they do it?  Probably when they figure out what percentage of passholders attend the parks and when.  Pass sales may become seasonal or annual.  For my planning, I am going to budget for tickets during the holiday seasons no matter what pass tier I have.  Focus on this and you will see where they are going:  (1) Limits on the number of annual passes outstanding at any time, (2) Reduced park capacities for safety reasons and (3) Passholders were always meant to be space available guests.





corpcomp said:


> Did not even think they might make APs seasonal. OMG help us all in that case.



Maybe not seasonal but the idea that others have mentioned of having a resort guest AP might work well for DVC owners.

I’d be more than fine with this as an option and it would seem fit a lot of DVC owners needs.


----------



## Blondie58

Parks are still crowded.  DVC rooms are booked.  We all keep going and paying the price.  The WDW organization is making money for shareholders.  No urgency to change much of anything.


----------



## ILoveMyDVC

Miffy said:


> But, @Sandisw, there's currently no AP available for purchase. So, forgetting the DVC discount, a DVC owner can't even purchase a regular out-of-state AP. I could see this making a big difference for out-of-state DVC owners who like going to the parks. I don't own DVC since it was never in my budget, but I do have an out-of-state AP that I've kept renewing, and I'm glad I did since the ticket prices are so crazy-expensive now that the also-expensive AP seems like a bargain (of sorts).


THIS!!!!!  I am quite tired of the oft quoted, "you signed a contract about perks".  DISCOUNTED APs was a perk.  APs were available for everyone.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> What their lawyers told them is, Mr. Chapek, when you sell an annual pass with blockout dates, you are telling that person they can come on the days not blocked out. Not every passholder will come on every date that is not blocked out, but maybe 20% of them will. So, you have already sold those dates to 20% of your eligible passholders.


Your post is a really great analysis and I believe hits the issue on its head.  This point above is exactly the issue.  Too many people (mostly nonlawyers) believe that a company can put anything they want in a contract and that’s that.  The law just doesn’t work that way.  I really do think the lawsuit has teeth and i think the suspension has something to do with it.  The longer the suspension goes on the more I think that.

If AP sales don’t come back after Easter then I do not think they are coming back for a long time…. At least not in their current form anyway.


----------



## ILoveMyDVC

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think you are getting close to the reason for suspending the AP sales in Disney World when you said, "Now, the lawsuit in CA regarding the AP there has merit in my book because while it did say it was subject to park availability, it did not say that was based on Disney deciding to offer those spots to others, IMO, that was and is deceptive."  I've been looking at the lawsuit and despite the unavailability language, I too think it might have traction.
> 
> If we can discover why Disney suspended sales, it might shed some light on when sales will return, if at all, and if there might be changes.
> 
> California has a fairly unique business practices law and that is one of the basis of this lawsuit that was filed as a putative class action lawsuit.  In this fairly unique business practices law, it allows for multiples in damages and the recovery of attorneys' fees and costs should the Plaintiff prevail.  Disney gave notice of removal and it was removed to federal court.  I am thinking the judge they drew is probably not considered favorable for Disney by court watchers.
> 
> I know when sales of new passes was halted, the media was full of articles saying they did it to control crowds during the busy holiday season.  The media made up the reason.  No person from Disney, who had authority to speak, ever said that.  So, strike that from the analysis.
> 
> The first significant event in the applicable timeline was Disney gave about 6 weeks notice that they would restart annual pass sales.  They gave notice on about August 4th for sales starting on September 8, 2021.  It is not like them to take action without notice.  But, when they stopped new sales it was without notice.  Something significant happened.
> 
> The second significant circumstance was when they started selling new annual passes again on September 8, 2021, it came with some different terms and conditions.  The park availability language was not new.  Maybe they strengthened the language, but it was not entirely new.  But, in the past, when admission was denied to a passholder it was due to reaching park capacity -- as defined by the Fire Marshall, serious storms, like Hurricane Irma. or other significant closure mandated by someone other than Disney's management preferences.  Past practices is an important legal concept when interpreting contracts.
> 
> Also, this time, there was something significant; passholders needed to have a park reservation to access the parks.  (That may have started earlier upon re-opening after the first big covid surge, but it was really significant when coupled with new annual passes going on sale.)  So, to recap, notice of new annual pass sales, and the park reservation system.  (The separate pricing of the water parks and photos was just so they didn't bundle and raise the prices even higher.  I'm okay with allowing annual passholders to customize their passes by breaking them out in line item pricing.  That is not reducing benefits.  That is allowing individual choice in line item pricing.)
> 
> The impact of park reservations is how they got into trouble.  Disney apparently did make statements about managing park experience with reference to crowds.  They talked about quality of experience.  Remember, they were just coming off of historically low park attendance due to covid restrictions and park attendance caps apparently set by governmental authorities.  But, this is Florida and the Governor DeSantis administration removed restrictions of that kind from businesses.
> 
> If any of you have ever been to a Disney park when it was closed to further admissions due orders of the Fire Marshall (wall to wall people), I can tell you, it is not just an inconvenience and long lines, it is downright scary.  This is when people pick up their children out of the strollers and carry them above their heads.  You can't see anywhere.  The crowd presses in on you and you cannot move forwards or in any direction.  You try to get to the side up against a wall or building.  Panic is a real possibility and trampling is a very high risk.  Every Disney employee was there trying to move the massive crowd and I could see the fear on their faces.  I have been in that more than once in Disneyland and a crowd too big, but not that scary at Disney World.  For high risk of litigation purposes, this would be a situation that the highest level of management at any of the Disney parks would do just about anything to prevent.  One of the things they have done -- and rightfully so -- is to lower the cap.  We should all be very grateful for that.  So, interpreting the Disney-speak, when they say they are trying to manage a quality experience, that's why the park capacities have been lowered.  Also factor in 2 years of covid lock-downs and the biggest travel surge in history that shows no signs of letting up yet -- and they are so very right to control the capacity in their parks.
> 
> When Disney started selling new passes last September, they were using the "bucket" system of allocated spaces.  One bucket for tickets, one bucket for resorts and one bucket for all of the types of passholders.  Now, Disney has always seen annual passholders as sort of a "space available" guest to fill in the gaps.  But, lately, they had new data that indicated the ticket holders or resort guests spent more per individual per park day.  Whether we like that characterization or not, it is a fact that motivates Disney top management, who are accountable to shareholders.  So, for the first time, Disney tried to keep annual passholders in the space available slots by controlling the allocations in the passholder bucket.  What Ms. Neilsen discovered, in California is that her no-blockout annual pass could not get a park reservation when the ticketed and resort guests (the higher spenders) could!  Disney had prioritized the highest profit guest over their (space - available) passholder guests.  Lower caps on park maximum attendance meant thousands and tens of thousands of few spaces for passholders.
> 
> Ms. Nielsen filed a he lawsuit was filed on November 9, 2021.  Less than a week later, Disney filed a Notice of Removal to federal court.  So, we know Disney's attorneys were into this immediately and considered it serious.  Disney then, on November 21, 2021, just five days after removal, gave notice that their Incredi-pass, Sorcerer and Pirate were "unavailable" to new sales, but kept the right of renewal for existing passholders and still allowed the Pixie Dust pass.
> 
> By allowing the right of renewal for existing passholders, it limited the pool of possible plaintiffs in the class action suit.  They were already there.  The lawsuit focuses on the AP blockout dates vs the park reservation system.  So, since the new passes were only on sale from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, it shut off adding additional people to the group of people that might have been damaged by their sale of annual passes with various levels of blockout dates.  What Disney did was sell passes with defined blockout dates and then due solely to their own authority -- added additional blockout dates by having too few spaces in the passholder bucket.  What their lawyers told them is, Mr. Chapek, when you sell an annual pass with blockout dates, you are telling that person they can come on the days not blocked out.  Not every passholder will come on every date that is not blocked out, but maybe 20% of them will.  So, you have already sold those dates to 20% of your eligible passholders.  You cannot therefore sell those spaces again to new ticket buyers or prioritize resort guests.  That was what was deceptive; the blockout date availability was being given to ticket holders or resort guests simply because Disney preferred them.  It was solely within the control and discretion of Disney and against the express terms of the passholder contract that listed specific blockout dates.  In law, the specific governs the general.  The unavailability language is a general clause and the calendar of blockout dates per pass type is the specific language.  So the blockout dates governs the unavailability language.  Otherwise Disney could sell passes and tell us there is no availability until 2025.
> 
> One of the things Disney is doing right now with the reservation system is gathering data on how many passholders attend their parks on which days.  They will find out if it is 20% or as in California 50% of the crowd consists of passholders.
> 
> The reason Disney decided to keep the Pixie Pass is because it blocks out the high attendance days -- every major and minor holiday, spring break and every weekend.  It forces those passholders into the "space available" days; as Disney intended passholders to use.  (It also may have been a condition of their development permits that they had to provide some kind of park access privilege to Florida residents.  That is not an uncommon conditions on high entertainment land use decisions by local government to offset impacts of quality of life for locals.  So, that may be why Disney keeps the lower prices passes to locals in both Florida and California.)
> 
> Now, litigation like this can generally take years.  The person who said park passes may come back next year may or may not have had official Disney information.  I suspect not.  They did have the reservation system and the annual passes in existence together only from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, so that is a short time.  They reduced their risk that way.
> 
> So, why the renewals of current passholders?  Because since they had to cap the park capacity numbers (due to the post covid travel surge) and cannot control through their bucket system (the litigation), then the only other way to control is to control the actual number of annual passes sold!  Yes.  I have seen other bloggers pick up on this.  The indicators are out there that the actual number of annual passes are limited.  They use the word "unavailable" for Disney World and "sold out" for Disneyland.  Disneyland has over a million outstanding APs!  They will be sold out for years to reduce that number through attrition.  Disney World has fewer, but I suspect that with every angry person who will not renew - another annual pass goes back on the shelf.  When they have enough, they will re-open sales again -- for a short time -- until those are gone -- and then they will stop again.  Disney does not want to be oversold on annual passes so the best time to cut it off was now.  They tried to use the reservation system to close the gates, but it failed.  So, now they will close the doors another way.
> 
> Another thing that supports my observations and theories is that after the Christmas holiday crowds, there have been some crowded times.  During all of those, there was park pass unavailability for ticket holders and resort guests, but not for the annual passholders.  That tells me their lawyers have advised Disney in the strongest possible terms that they cannot use the park reservation system to reduce the number of passholders in the parks.  Passholders have already bought and paid for that availability.  So, that's the good news for passholders.  But, trust me, you do not want those parks so crowded they are at Fire Marshall capacity caps ever again!
> 
> What about DVC members?  You are important to them or they would not have started selling new properties as DVC.  They will come up with something for you.  I do think, however that they will continue to have some Florida resident access as well.  I would have to wade through their original local government permitting docs to be certain and I am not going to get that deep into it.
> 
> So, those are my thoughts.  When will they do it?  Probably when they figure out what percentage of passholders attend the parks and when.  Pass sales may become seasonal or annual.  For my planning, I am going to budget for tickets during the holiday seasons no matter what pass tier I have.  Focus on this and you will see where they are going:  (1) Limits on the number of annual passes outstanding at any time, (2) Reduced park capacities for safety reasons and (3) Passholders were always meant to be space available guests.


Excellent critical thinking


----------



## Sandisw

ILoveMyDVC said:


> THIS!!!!!  I am quite tired of the oft quoted, "you signed a contract about perks".  DISCOUNTED APs was a perk.  APs were available for everyone.



Of course this is true but most of the comments that geared to perks.. at least mine.. we’re in response to posts about DVC…not DPEP…failing to provide them or that they should be doing more for members or we should be eligible regardless because they used them as part of the sales pitch.  

Having said that there is a DVC pass that is no longer available that was a perk so the topic does fall into both areas.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## RoseGold

Universal guaranteed access to on-site guests in early Covid, when they were really limited.  Disney never actually did that, which I always thought was the lawyers.  But seems like Universal was also prioritizing on site at the expense of APs.  And they didn't get sued?  They are trucking on with APs.


----------



## RoseGold

cheryl.UK said:


> The 14 day UK pass is about $750 each. If I hadn't already booked flights, I'd cancel this year. If they don't bring back APs for next year, we won't be going.



MCO is a major airport.  Just because you fly into there doesn't mean you have to stay there.  There are lots of North American destinations an easy flight from Orlando that aren't Disney.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Spaceguy55

Ms Bibbidi said:


> As to the lawsuit, it is not good news for Disney.  There is no way they walk out unscathed.  *It was just very bad management. * Even if it does become a jury trial, this federal judge they drew will be a no nonsense judge on this kind of consumer issue.


The bold line sums up what we all know...


----------



## CarolynFH

@Ms Bibbidi, many thanks for laying this out so clearly. When APs didn’t come back in January, I began thinking that the California lawsuit had something to do with it. I agree that APs won’t come back until there’s some sort of resolution and that APs will look very different when they do come back.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> No, the law does not always work that way, especially in what might be an adhesion contract, written entirely by one side who had all the power to dictate terms.  This is not a two sided bargained for exchange, is it?
> 
> Any ambiguity in those terms will be construed against the drafter.  I think there is a great deal of ambiguity in the term unavailable with respect to capacity and who decides.
> 
> The suspension of WDW new pass sales was about 11 days after the lawsuit was filed.  DLC followed the next day.  Coincidence?  Not hardly!
> 
> Disney executives clearly wanted to keep annual pass sales revenue, yet restrict pass holders from actually accessing the parks by means of limiting the number of admission spots in the passholders’ bucket. Think about the numbers from AP sales — over million outstanding passholders just in California times the average cost of an annual pass. Close to a billion a year or more? Then add in Florida. That is way too tempting for the current Disney admin that is all about maximizing profit following pandemic forced park closure and those losses. I understand how it happened and the idea of reservations as a tool for managing what type of guests and the mix they had was way too tempting. Especially during the unprecedented travel surge. They should have run it by legal first before implementing such drastic changes.
> 
> They wound up offering park admission spots/reservations to ticketed guests that they had already sold to passholders. They did not have room for all the gate admissions they were selling. That started to become glaringly clear as the holiday buckets for passholders emptied too soon. They seriously underestimated passholder usage. So they started blocking passholders on busy days in addition to the contracted blockout dates. When the lawsuit was filed and this came to light, their attorneys shut them down. Their website says DLC passes are sold out. It says WDW passes are currently unavailable. There is a difference.
> 
> There is no official word from Disney executives that this is temporary, will change soon or will even that new pass sales resume in 2022.  Nobody with authority has said any of that.  If they are waiting for the conclusion of the litigation it will most probably not be in 2022 or probably even in 2023.  But they might acquire new data that tells them how many annual passes they can have outstanding and have a good balance of guests between higher profit ticketed guests and lower profit per day passholders.  Right now, from the DVC and passholder perspective this is our only hope that this study will bring good news.
> 
> As to the lawsuit, it is not good news for Disney.  There is no way they walk out unscathed.  It was just very bad management.  Even if it does become a jury trial, this federal judge they drew will be a no nonsense judge on this kind of consumer issue.
> 
> It does not matter that this was filed in California regarding Magic Key passes. The class action broadens the case and the allegations are rooted in fraud and deception, which are also torts in Florida and the federal system.


It really is a case of them getting burned by greed too.  If they hadn’t created different classes of park buckets, this wouldn’t be an issue. Once they realized that the APs were forcing out day guest availability they could still have just stopped selling them to handle the problem, but they wouldn’t be stuck with this lawsuit.  But Disney didnt’ want that, they didn’t want to give up the upfront AP sale revenue stream and they got burned as a result.  It was just mismanagement all around.

I also agree that the fact that AP’s in Disney World now have significantly **more** availability then day tickets is evidence that they have temporarily overcorrected for this problem with existing AP’s to try to stem the damage.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You make a good point though, RoseGold.  Universal and Disney were both apparently prioritizing on-site guests when capacity was even more limited.



Maybe, but Disney took it to an entirely different level.  It was more egregious.  I didn’t hear stories of there being just entire months of no availability to Universal passholders the way there was for Disneyland AP’s.  Universal in California may eventually have gotten dinged too though, but if memory serves me correctly they abandoned the park reservation system fairly quickly.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## sethschroeder

Sandisw said:


> Those do clearly say these are incidental and not guaranteed. So, no one buys without being given the information in plain sight and not buried deep in terms and conditions.



Again and we have went over this if they remove something they are to replace it.

They haven't removed it because it's temporarily not available but if that changes you would expect a replacement.

Disney doesn't reserve the right to cancel items of its choosing, it states they reserve the right to replace a benefit if it becomes unavailable.

So they have leeway because of it being temporary but if APs are gone forever they need to replace them and remove it from the Membership Extra paperwork. It then takes 3 years for the requirement to renew the benefits to be removed since you are for sure granted access for 3 years before they can stop renewing the benefits program (not specific items but membership extras in general)

I am not sure why you keep saying they can just remove things when that is not in the paperwork and not how someone would read it either.


----------



## Sandisw

sethschroeder said:


> Again and we have went over this if they remove something they are to replace it.
> 
> They haven't removed it because it's temporarily not available but if that changes you would expect a replacement.
> 
> Disney doesn't reserve the right to cancel items of its choosing, it states they reserve the right to replace a benefit if it becomes unavailable.
> 
> So they have leeway because of it being temporary but if APs are gone forever they need to replace them and remove it from the Membership Extra paperwork. It then takes 3 years for the requirement to renew the benefits to be removed since you are for sure granted access for 3 years before they can stop renewing the benefits program (not specific items but membership extras in general)
> 
> I am not sure why you keep saying they can just remove things when that is not in the paperwork and not how someone would read it either.



Things have been removed and an alternative not given. Case in point…valet parking.

But there is no language you can point to that they guarantee any specific benefit of any kind as part of the program and unless it fails a legal challenge, IMO, what is included as part of the program is subject to change or elimination.

I posted the language from the website that explains it as well. Not sure why you think that we must be given some level of ticket option as part of DVC if DPEP no longer sells APs when no such language exists.   The words may replace does not mean the same thing as must replace.

I do think that DVD willalways try to have something of value in there as it does aid in sales and I think that if APs never come back  they very well may add a ticket discount..not because they have to but because it’s purpose is to enhance the product they are trying to sell. 

Let’s not detail the thread again regarding perks because this is about AP sales in general and how owners will be adjusting if they can’t get them.


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## jo-jo

I still don't understand the Fla passes .   Not so much me, but people who have a thousand or more points, every year probably put more into disney's pockets than the person who lives 10 miles away and pops into disney once a week.


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## RoseGold

jo-jo said:


> I still don't understand the Fla passes .   Not so much me, but people who have a thousand or more points, every year probably put more into disney's pockets than the person who lives 10 miles away and pops into disney once a week.



This kind of thing can be a condition of building large facilities and permits.  It’s possible Disney has a legal obligation to keep a special pass for local residents.  I feel like we would already know about it in California from the lawsuit.

Lots of touristy things give discounts to the locals as part of the arrangement with local government.  WDW has a lot of these, hotel discounts too.


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## Miffy

@Ms Bibbidi: Thank you for that thoughtful analysis. I was unaware of the details of the CA lawsuit and your explanation is extremely helpful. This has convinced me to never let my AP lapse. I fortunately renewed it right before the pandemic and have kept it up since.

WDW is still offering AP discounts for certain dates, and I've taken advantage of them, including an early-March trip that I never would've taken if the discount hadn't been available. This makes me wonder about their "loyalty" to AP holders. Why bother offering APs discounts if they want us to discontinue renewing?


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## lowlight

RoseGold said:


> This kind of thing can be a condition of building large facilities and permits.  It’s possible Disney has a legal obligation to keep a special pass for local residents.  I feel like we would already know about it in California from the lawsuit.
> 
> Lots of touristy things give discounts to the locals as part of the arrangement with local government.  WDW has a lot of these, hotel discounts too.


Even if it isn’t a legal requirement, it’s smart business. You are developing an area around a major city, causing traffic, crime, and general mayhem.  You need to keep local residents happy, because otherwise, when they’re waiting in heavy traffic caused by your parks on their way to work, they may talk to their local elected official who may fear losing office and put a wrench in some expansion plans.  It’s just greasing the wheels like the lobbyists do.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## lowlight

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well, that is a darker way of looking at it.  Such conditions are not quite like that.  They are environmental mitigations that are negotiated and above board.  That is why they are part of the public hearing process and the public record.  I think it is at least a very interesting coincidence that the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) was passed in 1970.  It really gained traction in the late 70s and early 80s.  Disneyland California started annual passes in circa 1982.


Ok.


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## tjkraz

Madame said:


> WDW has *made* parks crowded (in part due to wanting to maximize profits).  Reduced hours, Genie and ticket prices making visitors feel they need to stay in park to justify the ridiculous cost.



Agree with that. Additionally, the pre-booking aspect of FastPass+ did a lot to stagger arrivals at the theme parks. If I could line-up my 3 rides at 2pm, 3pm and 4pm, I had no reason to get to the park earlier. I could show up at the MK after lunch, ride BTMR, Space and Splash, while peppering with a few other short-wait attractions, and consider it a very worthwhile visit. 

Now, whether you're buying Genie+ or not, the uncertainty over wait times forces everyone into the park early. If you're buying G+, you're probably up at 7am in the interest of getting your money's worth. If you aren't buying, you probably still arrive at the park early rather than risk waltzing in mid-day and finding hour-long lines for everything.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## redboat45

Ms Bibbidi said:


> There was a dust up in the early days during very low park capacity when on-site guests who were passholders were being limited by the 5 reservations at a time and it did not cover length of stay.  So Disney responded with length of stay in addition to the 5 passholder reservations even though they were using annual passes for admission.  That was the only on-site guest problem I am aware of.


it was only 3 reservation days allowed!  And we got caught up in that.  It was AWFUL!


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Matty B13

Saw the CNBC news about Disney yesterday, and it was not good for Chapek, reminds me a lot of what happened at GE and mismanagement there.  GE's stock tanked after several new stories about the issues there, hope this isn't the same thing that happens to Disney's stock.  Seems that Chapek put most of his eggs in the Disney+ basket, and didn't want to put any money into the parks.  I just hope as a shareholder that there is a claw-back on his compensation package.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I am thinking the park reservation system and behind-the-scenes bucket allocation system was created in very large part to give Disney control over when the "space available" passholders could actually attend the parks.  If they cannot use that system, the next edition of passes or frequent visitor admissions will try to reflect another method of shoe-horning frequent visitor guests into the parks and days with the lowest expected attendance.  They have many methods to do that like pricing incentives, limits on reservations or even maximum caps on number of visits.  The question is whether or not they will tweak the current system or sunset it and start something completely new like a variation of tickets.  They were using language like membership or frequent visitor before they issued the current rendition of annual passes.  So, they decided on a park reservation plus a behind the scenes bucket allocation solely within their control.  If that is off the table then "Katie bar the door."  This may kill the reservation system (now projected through early 2024) but *the replacement may be something else you like even less.*


Oh no! Not that! (But I totally get what you're saying.)
I just wonder how all this will shake out once the make-up-for-the-pandemic vacationing tapers off, and that will happen.


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## Nappy1380

I asked numerous CMs last week about this and every single time the answer was the same; "We were told they would be back in 2022, but not when in 2022".


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## CraigInPA

I'm a former AP holder, and bought tickets for my recent trip because AP's stopped being offered. I expected, sometime in the last few months, they'd open AP's back up and I could use the $809 per ticket I paid as a credit toward a new AP. Alas, my trip came up and there were no AP's offered. My wife and I were planning a 2023 trip, but are now determined not to go unless:
1. We can buy an AP
2. They re-vamp Genie+ into something usable for people who don't want to wake up at 6:55am to book those iLL's promptly at 7am and make that first hard-to-get reservation and then show up at rope drop to effectively use Genie+ to ride more than two E-ticket rides in a day. We went during "Spring Break", so the crowds were high. Standby times for most MK rides (7DMT 150 minutes) were over 60 minutes, HS rides over 80 minutes (ROTR 240 minutes), and AK rides over 60 minutes (Avatar 200 minutes), and my wife and I aren't physically able to stand in line that long. We would use fastpass+ to book 3 rides a day in the morning or afternoon, leave the park, and then return for the evening fireworks or parades.


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## chicagodisneyguy

CraigInPA said:


> I'm a former AP holder, and bought tickets for my recent trip because AP's stopped being offered. I expected, sometime in the last few months, they'd open AP's back up and I could use the $809 per ticket I paid as a credit toward a new AP. Alas, my trip came up and there were no AP's offered. My wife and I were planning a 2023 trip, but are now determined not to go unless:
> 1. We can buy an AP
> 2. They re-vamp Genie+ into something usable for people who don't want to wake up at 6:55am to book those iLL's promptly at 7am and make that first hard-to-get reservation and then show up at rope drop to effectively use Genie+ to ride more than two E-ticket rides in a day. We went during "Spring Break", so the crowds were high. Standby times for most MK rides (7DMT 150 minutes) were over 60 minutes, HS rides over 80 minutes (ROTR 240 minutes), and AK rides over 60 minutes (Avatar 200 minutes), and my wife and I aren't physically able to stand in line that long. We would use fastpass+ to book 3 rides a day in the morning or afternoon, leave the park, and then return for the evening fireworks or parades.


I think #1 will happen.    I think #2 will not


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## AnnaKristoff2013

chicagodisneyguy said:


> I think #1 will happen.    I think #2 will not


See, I think #2 might happen, and I’m starting to have doubts about #1, at least in it’s current form. But as for #2, people really really HATE Genie.  I get that everyone is buying it because they have to, but take a wander on down to the tripadvisor reviews for Walt Disney World lately and you’ll get a taste of it.  I don’t think they’re ever eliminating Genie, but could they tweak it to remove some of the most unpopular elements (like requiring you to wake up at 6:45 am every single day of your trip to play fastest fingers?).  Yeah, I think they could do that.   Hell, I got a survey after my last trip with questions about Genie that made me think they were considering changes like that.


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## chicagodisneyguy

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> See, I think #2 might happen, and I’m starting to have doubts about #1, at least in it’s current form. But as for #2, people really really HATE Genie.  I get that everyone is buying it because they have to, but take a wander on down to the tripadvisor reviews for Walt Disney World lately and you’ll get a taste of it.  I don’t think they’re ever eliminating Genie, but could they tweak it to remove some of the most unpopular elements (like requiring you to wake up at 6:45 am every single day of your trip to play fastest fingers?).  Yeah, I think they could do that.   Hell, I got a survey after my last trip with questions about Genie that made me think they were considering changes like that.


I think the only way to really increase Genie+ satisfaction is to raise the price....as nuts as that sounds.  Too many people are buying it during busy times it seems.  I think they need to make it more like US Express Pass that varies in price depending on the date.  We had a lot of success using it during our October 2021 and Jan 2022 trips.  I don't think we'd have the same success recently. 

I think as far as the 6:55am and fast finger issues, I don't know how to address that other than maybe allowing people to book things starting at 7pm the day before.  But then instead of waking up early you are eating into your nighttime activities the night before.

Honestly though, until there is some decline in demand I'm not sure what is really going to make things better as far as wait times.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## KAT4DISNEY

Logically I'm a little confused as to the thought that the CA lawsuit is keeping AP's from being sold.  Initial stoppage I could understand but not the continuation because of the fact that they continue to renew AP's which could encounter the same reservation issues.   I can't quite believe they'd ignore the lawsuit for part of the AP population simply because they want the income and are willing to take the risk on some but not all.  



sethschroeder said:


> Again and we have went over this* if they remove something they are to replace it.*
> 
> They haven't removed it because it's temporarily not available but if that changes you would expect a replacement.
> 
> Disney doesn't reserve the right to cancel items of its choosing, it states they reserve the right to replace a benefit if it becomes unavailable.



This is the 1st time I believe I've ever seen this argument.  I have never noticed that language in any legal or even promotional DVC document.   Where have you seen that?

Also, I do not believe this has been brought up but a DVC AP has not always been available for owners.   Nor even has a discount off of AP's.  Discounts started just before we purchased in the mid-2000's.  Prior to that there had been no park admission discounts since the original sales perk for OKW buyers other than a few special ticket offers here and there which has continued periodically.   The more discounted DVC Gold AP which matched the FL resident Gold AP only started in 2015.   And of course DL AP's received a whole $20.  So it's not like special AP's or even discounted AP's have been part of the equation the entire life of DVC.   If you also considered that the documents also state that the parks themselves even existing are not a guaranteed part of DVC then expecting that park admission discounts are somehow a required perk is contradictory.  

But that's just the legal.   I tend to side with pushback on the removal of many things over the years because once it starts it rarely stops.  Required though?  I don't believe so.  

Without something like the AP benefit the perks have little financial aspect to draw people to purchase directly.  Emotionally though they will still do that.


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## Sandisw

KAT4DISNEY said:


> Logically I'm a little confused as to the thought that the CA lawsuit is keeping AP's from being sold.  Initial stoppage I could understand but not the continuation because of the fact that they continue to renew AP's which could encounter the same reservation issues.   I can't quite believe they'd ignore the lawsuit for part of the AP population simply because they want the income and are willing to take the risk on some but not all.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the 1st time I believe I've ever seen this argument.  I have never noticed that language in any legal or even promotional DVC document.   Where have you seen that?
> 
> Also, I do not believe this has been brought up but a DVC AP has not always been available for owners.   Nor even has a discount off of AP's.  Discounts started just before we purchased in the mid-2000's.  Prior to that there had been no park admission discounts since the original sales perk for OKW buyers other than a few special ticket offers here and there which has continued periodically.   The more discounted DVC Gold AP which matched the FL resident Gold AP only started in 2015.   And of course DL AP's received a whole $20.  So it's not like special AP's or even discounted AP's have been part of the equation the entire life of DVC.   If you also considered that the documents also state that the parks themselves even existing are not a guaranteed part of DVC then expecting that park admission discounts are somehow a required perk is contradictory.
> 
> But that's just the legal.   I tend to side with pushback on the removal of many things over the years because once it starts it rarely stops.  Required though?  I don't believe so.
> 
> Without something like the AP benefit the perks have little financial aspect to draw people to purchase directly.  Emotionally though they will still do that.



One reason could be they renew but not sell is because they know how to control the buckets as the current number of AP holders is at its max without new sales other than pixie pass.  

That bucket system is at the heart of the lawsuit and whether the way it is use is an indirect way to add blockout dates to passes when there are not supposed to be any…or not many…when they were still allowing day or resort guests to buy tickets.   It now makes sense to me that for every AP that is sold, they have in essence given those pass holders a spot on a first come first serve bases.

I do think the idea that we may see a different AP product seems more likely now and maybe we will see something unique!

Here is the actual language from the Membership extra documents being referenced, just in case you wanted it.


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## KAT4DISNEY

tjkraz said:


> Agree with that. Additionally, the pre-booking aspect of FastPass+ did a lot to stagger arrivals at the theme parks. If I could line-up my 3 rides at 2pm, 3pm and 4pm, I had no reason to get to the park earlier. I could show up at the MK after lunch, ride BTMR, Space and Splash, while peppering with a few other short-wait attractions, and consider it a very worthwhile visit.
> 
> Now, whether you're buying Genie+ or not, the uncertainty over wait times forces everyone into the park early. If you're buying G+, you're probably up at 7am in the interest of getting your money's worth. If you aren't buying, you probably still arrive at the park early rather than risk waltzing in mid-day and finding hour-long lines for everything.



I am wondering if the park reservation system could be contributing to the issues too.  After all it's not like Orlando suddenly doubled their room capacity during the pandemic so that there are that many more people visiting.  And I doubt that people suddenly are driving in for the day from miles and miles away.  Previously another segment of park visitor could decide on the park to go to and show up when they got there.  Now you have to get to that original park you have a reservation for before you can go to another for the evening if your second park was "sold out" for the day.  Psychologically having a reservation can change actions too.   And then there's the shortened time to use a ticket from 14 days down to a couple days past the length of the ticket.  Neither would be a main factor but perhaps contributing to the perfect storm being seen.


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## lowlight

Sandisw said:


> Here is the actual language from the Membership extra documents being referenced, just in case you wanted it.



I'm more inclined to side with your understanding of that language Sandi, but I see where Seth is coming from.  Why wouldn't they just say, "We reserve the right to remove or change any incidental benefit at any time without notice and without offering a replacement"?  We have a few people who play lawyer on TV here, maybe they will chime in.


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## Sandisw

lowlight said:


> I'm more inclined to side with your understanding of that language Sandi, but I see where Seth is coming from.  Why wouldn't they just say, "We reserve the right to remove or change any incidental benefit at any time without notice and without offering a replacement"?  We have a few people who play lawyer on TV here, maybe they will chime in.



It does say something like that in the POS that they can be removed or ended at any time. I don’t want to derail the thread again but plenty of language out there which supports it.

Here is another clause that does just that:



Of course, I still believe it benefits them to have membership extras…even though we are not entitled to them as part of what we bought…because it is what is used to differentiate the resale vs direct contracts.

It is why I am confident DPEP will continue offering guests some level of ticket option that allows multiple visits in a year that is less expensive then having to pay for multi day passes every time,


----------



## cheryl.UK

RoseGold said:


> MCO is a major airport.  Just because you fly into there doesn't mean you have to stay there.  There are lots of North American destinations an easy flight from Orlando that aren't Disney.


We don't only stay in WDW.  In 2019 we also visited New York, Washington, Charleston, Richmond and Gettysberg but as DVC owners, our accommodation is 'paid for'.  We would not be able to pay for alternative accommodation or a car this year.  We booked our flights just before they suspended APs and I was only waiting for my next pay check to buy our passes.  I've wracked my brain for different affordable alternatives but everything I think of seems to add at least $1500 to our overall cost. With home fuel costs in the UK now going up by 60% and diesel costing more than $10 per gallon, finances are stretched.


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## KAT4DISNEY

Sandisw said:


> It does say something like that in the POS that they can be removed or ended at any time. I don’t want to derail the thread again but plenty of language out there which supports it.
> 
> Here is another clause that does just that:
> 
> View attachment 656576
> 
> Of course, I still believe it benefits them to have membership extras…even though we are not entitled to them as part of what we bought…because it is what is used to differentiate the resale vs direct contracts.
> 
> It is why I am confident DPEP will continue offering guests some level of ticket option that allows multiple visits in a year that is less expensive then having to pay for multi day passes every time,



I don't recall the "period of three (3) years or less" being included a decade or so ago but would have to pull out paperwork.  But that "or less" would seem to be saying "or gone next week" doesn't it?


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Sandisw

KAT4DISNEY said:


> I don't recall the "period of three (3) years or less" being included a decade or so ago but would have to pull out paperwork.  But that "or less" would seem to be saying "or gone next week" doesn't it?



It does to me and IIRC, that “and less” was added after the pandemic as the entire document was updated to account for changes that could occur.

They even added the words “from time to time, a discounted pass could be offered, which seems to go even further to define this as a come and go benefit now.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Madame

They are selling new passes to families whose children age up from 2-3


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## KAT4DISNEY

Ms Bibbidi said:


> September 4, 2021 to November 20/21, 2021      Disney is selling and renewing annual passes.  In the background, they are shorting park positions to the passholder buckets for park reservations.  The effect is annual passholders cannot make reservations for dates their passes do allow.   Because park reservations are made in advance, basically from about October 2021 to at least the end of December 2021, passholders (with pre-paid gate admission) are being denied entry while at the same time there is available space for people still purchasing tickets.  This unilateral addition of blockout dates creates a class of injured passholders among the group of people who were already active passholders at that time.
> 
> November 20/21.  New pass sales are halted in both Florida and (the next day) California.  This act prevents the class of possibly injured passholders from growing larger.
> 
> November 22, 2021.  Renewals are still allowed.  Why?  Because if they were an active passholder they are already in the possibly damaged class that probably will be covered in the class action suit.  So, why not let them renew.  Again, they do not want to sell NEW annual passes because that would add to the class action plaintiff class.
> 
> Shortly after November 22, 2021.  Disney suddenly adds a lot of park reservation availability to the passholder bucket.  The reason or effect are not clear yet.
> 
> January/February/March 2022.  It becomes clear that now guests buying new tickets are running into park reservation unavailability on the same dates that passholders - not in a blockout date - are all green lighted for park availability.  This is a reversal from the September to December period.  Disney gave up the tool of using park reservations and buckets to whittle down passholder attendance and prioritize ticket holders.    At present, only when a park appears to be completely sold out because it is really at capacity does it appear there is unavailability for a passholder.  In short, Disney is currently honoring the blockout calendars for passholders.  But they still cannot restart new annual pass sales because they do not yet have the data on what the mix is between ticketed guests and passholder usage.  They want to get that mix right because they have  new information that ticketed guests are more profitable per individual per park day.  We know that in Disneyland and Disney California Adventure that there are approximately a million passholders and park attendance averages 50% passholders.
> 
> One reason they want to offer renewals to existing passholders is because of that three year incidental benefit rule just posted above.  Another is that the language posted by SandiSW "beyond the control of the developer."   A unilateral change by Disney (if Disney was the developer) to control existing passholders and deny park reservation availability via shorted buckets for passholders did not comply with that language.  Now DVC owners who would buy one year on and one year off might have found themselves with expired and non-renewable passes when new sales were halted.  They were not damaged.  That was their choice.
> 
> The risk has been very well corralled here by their tactics, but it also left a footprint that they were indeed reacting to the lawsuit upon the advice of their lawyers.  It does make sense for the present.



Got it - thanks!


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Sandisw said:


> because it is what is used to differentiate the resale vs direct contracts.


For the first 25 years of it’s existence there was no difference between resale and direct contracts, and direct contracts sold just fine.  They don’t seem to need to offer exclusive member benefits to sell DVC, and they seem to be realizing that.


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## Sandisw

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> For the first 25 years of it’s existence there was no difference between resale and direct contracts, and direct contracts sold just fine.  They don’t seem to need to offer exclusive member benefits to sell DVC, and they seem to be realizing that.



Correct but they decided they wanted to make it a tiered system and until they eliminate it..which they can…they do use it as a difference and why I think they will always offer something.

  Again, people don’t buy nor should they buy for the benefits, but as long as they can offer buyers something resale can’t, they will include it. 

It is the same thing for DPEP. APs make them a lot of money from all the different guests and they will find a way to bring something like it back.


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## mlayton14

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think you are getting close to the reason for suspending the AP sales in Disney World when you said, "Now, the lawsuit in CA regarding the AP there has merit in my book because while it did say it was subject to park availability, it did not say that was based on Disney deciding to offer those spots to others, IMO, that was and is deceptive."  I've been looking at the lawsuit and despite the unavailability language, I too think it might have traction.
> 
> If we can discover why Disney suspended sales, it might shed some light on when sales will return, if at all, and if there might be changes.
> 
> California has a fairly unique business practices law and that is one of the basis of this lawsuit that was filed as a putative class action lawsuit.  In this fairly unique business practices law, it allows for multiples in damages and the recovery of attorneys' fees and costs should the Plaintiff prevail.  Disney gave notice of removal and it was removed to federal court.  I am thinking the judge they drew is probably not considered favorable for Disney by court watchers.
> 
> I know when sales of new passes was halted, the media was full of articles saying they did it to control crowds during the busy holiday season.  The media made up the reason.  No person from Disney, who had authority to speak, ever said that.  So, strike that from the analysis.
> 
> The first significant event in the applicable timeline was Disney gave about 6 weeks notice that they would restart annual pass sales.  They gave notice on about August 4th for sales starting on September 8, 2021.  It is not like them to take action without notice.  But, when they stopped new sales it was without notice.  Something significant happened.
> 
> The second significant circumstance was when they started selling new annual passes again on September 8, 2021, it came with some different terms and conditions.  The park availability language was not new.  Maybe they strengthened the language, but it was not entirely new.  But, in the past, when admission was denied to a passholder it was due to reaching park capacity -- as defined by the Fire Marshall, serious storms, like Hurricane Irma. or other significant closure mandated by someone other than Disney's management preferences.  Past practices is an important legal concept when interpreting contracts.
> 
> Also, this time, there was something significant; passholders needed to have a park reservation to access the parks.  (That may have started earlier upon re-opening after the first big covid surge, but it was really significant when coupled with new annual passes going on sale.)  So, to recap, notice of new annual pass sales, and the park reservation system.  (The separate pricing of the water parks and photos was just so they didn't bundle and raise the prices even higher.  I'm okay with allowing annual passholders to customize their passes by breaking them out in line item pricing.  That is not reducing benefits.  That is allowing individual choice in line item pricing.)
> 
> The impact of park reservations is how they got into trouble.  Disney apparently did make statements about managing park experience with reference to crowds.  They talked about quality of experience.  Remember, they were just coming off of historically low park attendance due to covid restrictions and park attendance caps apparently set by governmental authorities.  But, this is Florida and the Governor DeSantis administration removed restrictions of that kind from businesses.
> 
> If any of you have ever been to a Disney park when it was closed to further admissions due orders of the Fire Marshall (wall to wall people), I can tell you, it is not just an inconvenience and long lines, it is downright scary.  This is when people pick up their children out of the strollers and carry them above their heads.  You can't see anywhere.  The crowd presses in on you and you cannot move forwards or in any direction.  You try to get to the side up against a wall or building.  Panic is a real possibility and trampling is a very high risk.  Every Disney employee was there trying to move the massive crowd and I could see the fear on their faces.  I have been in that more than once in Disneyland and a crowd too big, but not that scary at Disney World.  For high risk of litigation purposes, this would be a situation that the highest level of management at any of the Disney parks would do just about anything to prevent.  One of the things they have done -- and rightfully so -- is to lower the cap.  We should all be very grateful for that.  So, interpreting the Disney-speak, when they say they are trying to manage a quality experience, that's why the park capacities have been lowered.  Also factor in 2 years of covid lock-downs and the biggest travel surge in history that shows no signs of letting up yet -- and they are so very right to control the capacity in their parks.
> 
> When Disney started selling new passes last September, they were using the "bucket" system of allocated spaces.  One bucket for tickets, one bucket for resorts and one bucket for all of the types of passholders.  Now, Disney has always seen annual passholders as sort of a "space available" guest to fill in the gaps.  But, lately, they had new data that indicated the ticket holders or resort guests spent more per individual per park day.  Whether we like that characterization or not, it is a fact that motivates Disney top management, who are accountable to shareholders.  So, for the first time, Disney tried to keep annual passholders in the space available slots by controlling the allocations in the passholder bucket.  What Ms. Neilsen discovered, in California is that her no-blockout annual pass could not get a park reservation when the ticketed and resort guests (the higher spenders) could!  Disney had prioritized the highest profit guest over their (space - available) passholder guests.  Lower caps on park maximum attendance meant thousands and tens of thousands of few spaces for passholders.
> 
> Ms. Nielsen filed a he lawsuit was filed on November 9, 2021.  Less than a week later, Disney filed a Notice of Removal to federal court.  So, we know Disney's attorneys were into this immediately and considered it serious.  Disney then, on November 21, 2021, just five days after removal, gave notice that their Incredi-pass, Sorcerer and Pirate were "unavailable" to new sales, but kept the right of renewal for existing passholders and still allowed the Pixie Dust pass.
> 
> By allowing the right of renewal for existing passholders, it limited the pool of possible plaintiffs in the class action suit.  They were already there.  The lawsuit focuses on the AP blockout dates vs the park reservation system.  So, since the new passes were only on sale from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, it shut off adding additional people to the group of people that might have been damaged by their sale of annual passes with various levels of blockout dates.  What Disney did was sell passes with defined blockout dates and then due solely to their own authority -- added additional blockout dates by having too few spaces in the passholder bucket.  What their lawyers told them is, Mr. Chapek, when you sell an annual pass with blockout dates, you are telling that person they can come on the days not blocked out.  Not every passholder will come on every date that is not blocked out, but maybe 20% of them will.  So, you have already sold those dates to 20% of your eligible passholders.  You cannot therefore sell those spaces again to new ticket buyers or prioritize resort guests.  That was what was deceptive; the blockout date availability was being given to ticket holders or resort guests simply because Disney preferred them.  It was solely within the control and discretion of Disney and against the express terms of the passholder contract that listed specific blockout dates.  In law, the specific governs the general.  The unavailability language is a general clause and the calendar of blockout dates per pass type is the specific language.  So the blockout dates governs the unavailability language.  Otherwise Disney could sell passes and tell us there is no availability until 2025.
> 
> One of the things Disney is doing right now with the reservation system is gathering data on how many passholders attend their parks on which days.  They will find out if it is 20% or as in California 50% of the crowd consists of passholders.
> 
> The reason Disney decided to keep the Pixie Pass is because it blocks out the high attendance days -- every major and minor holiday, spring break and every weekend.  It forces those passholders into the "space available" days; as Disney intended passholders to use.  (It also may have been a condition of their development permits that they had to provide some kind of park access privilege to Florida residents.  That is not an uncommon conditions on high entertainment land use decisions by local government to offset impacts of quality of life for locals.  So, that may be why Disney keeps the lower prices passes to locals in both Florida and California.)
> 
> Now, litigation like this can generally take years.  The person who said park passes may come back next year may or may not have had official Disney information.  I suspect not.  They did have the reservation system and the annual passes in existence together only from September 8, 2021 to November 20, 2021, so that is a short time.  They reduced their risk that way.
> 
> So, why the renewals of current passholders?  Because since they had to cap the park capacity numbers (due to the post covid travel surge) and cannot control through their bucket system (the litigation), then the only other way to control is to control the actual number of annual passes sold!  Yes.  I have seen other bloggers pick up on this.  The indicators are out there that the actual number of annual passes are limited.  They use the word "unavailable" for Disney World and "sold out" for Disneyland.  Disneyland has over a million outstanding APs!  They will be sold out for years to reduce that number through attrition.  Disney World has fewer, but I suspect that with every angry person who will not renew - another annual pass goes back on the shelf.  When they have enough, they will re-open sales again -- for a short time -- until those are gone -- and then they will stop again.  Disney does not want to be oversold on annual passes so the best time to cut it off was now.  They tried to use the reservation system to close the gates, but it failed.  So, now they will close the doors another way.
> 
> Another thing that supports my observations and theories is that after the Christmas holiday crowds, there have been some crowded times.  During all of those, there was park pass unavailability for ticket holders and resort guests, but not for the annual passholders.  That tells me their lawyers have advised Disney in the strongest possible terms that they cannot use the park reservation system to reduce the number of passholders in the parks.  Passholders have already bought and paid for that availability.  So, that's the good news for passholders.  But, trust me, you do not want those parks so crowded they are at Fire Marshall capacity caps ever again!
> 
> What about DVC members?  You are important to them or they would not have started selling new properties as DVC.  They will come up with something for you.  I do think, however that they will continue to have some Florida resident access as well.  I would have to wade through their original local government permitting docs to be certain and I am not going to get that deep into it.
> 
> So, those are my thoughts.  When will they do it?  Probably when they figure out what percentage of passholders attend the parks and when.  Pass sales may become seasonal or annual.  For my planning, I am going to budget for tickets during the holiday seasons no matter what pass tier I have.  Focus on this and you will see where they are going:  (1) Limits on the number of annual passes outstanding at any time, (2) Reduced park capacities for safety reasons and (3) Passholders were always meant to be space available guests.



question for those lawyers out there .. will these civil proceeding be public information? Most notably , Disney’s data on the percentage of APs vs day tickets and packages. THAT would be fascinating info to find out


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

Sandisw said:


> Correct but they decided they wanted to make it a tiered system and until they eliminate it..which they can…they do use it as a difference and why I think they will always offer something.
> 
> Again, people don’t buy nor should they buy for the benefits, but as long as they can offer buyers something resale can’t, they will include it.
> 
> It is the same thing for DPEP. APs make them a lot of money from all the different guests and they will find a way to bring something like it back.



The_ only_ reason to make a tiered system was to encourage direct sales.

I too think it makes little difference in the grand scheme.  Just adjusting their sales tactics would probably do as much or maybe more.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

We just bought UOR AP's and everything was great at Universal.  We still prefer WDW but at least we have somewhere to go in August and January now.  Also, Universal had character meets and shows when we were there.  The Mardi Gras parade was great and staffing didn't seem to be an issue.

I don't like that Florida residents currently have an AP available at WDW and had the ticket offer. DVC members are spending large amounts of money for their timeshares and should at least have access to some ticketing promotion.


----------



## RoseGold

cheryl.UK said:


> I've wracked my brain for different affordable alternatives but everything I think of seems to add at least $1500 to our overall cost. With home fuel costs in the UK now going up by 60% and diesel costing more than $10 per gallon, finances are stretched.



You are talking about thousands of dollars in park tickets, plus the income you could get from renting out your points (or selling your contract).  That easily covers going anywhere in the Caribbean or Mexico.  Keep the MCO flights and book flights somewhere else.


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## redboat45

Madame said:


> They are selling new passes to families whose children age up from 2-3


I've seen reports where they actually aren't.


----------



## lowlight

d


redboat45 said:


> I've seen reports where they actually aren't.



I can confirm they are as of a few days ago. It may be dependent on cast member, but mine didn’t even hesitate.


----------



## redboat45

lowlight said:


> d
> 
> 
> I can confirm they are as of a few days ago. It may be dependent on cast member, but mine didn’t even hesitate.


that's great.  The report I saw was from a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## Madame

redboat45 said:


> I've seen reports where they actually aren't.


The reports I’m referencing are on these boards & from FB groups - several that I’ve seen since they stopping offering APs.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## js

I currently have a Sorcerer Pass with DVC and my mom has IncrediPass, both will expire in November.
Will we be able to renew APs that we currently have or has renewal also been suspended?

Thank you.


----------



## redboat45

js said:


> I currently have a Sorcerer Pass with DVC and my mom has IncrediPass, both will expire in November.
> Will we be able to renew APs that we currently have or has renewal also been suspended?
> 
> Thank you.


as of now you can still renew.  Who knows what they'll do by November.


----------



## js

redboat45 said:


> as of now you can still renew.  Who knows what they'll do by November.


Thank you.


----------



## Duckbug.Ducktales

redboat45 said:


> as of now you can still renew.  Who knows what they'll do by November.


When do APs come up for renewal? A month before expiration?


----------



## CarolMN

Duckbug.Ducktales said:


> When do APs come up for renewal? A month before expiration?


60 days before expiration and up to 30 days after expiration.


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## CraigInPA

mlayton14 said:


> question for those lawyers out there .. will these civil proceeding be public information? Most notably , Disney’s data on the percentage of APs vs day tickets and packages. THAT would be fascinating info to find out



Disney will likely try to tag that as a "trade secret", which would prevent it from becoming public. But, as it is the central argument in the lawsuit, I suspect a judge would demand that it be public. IMO, if Disney wants to keep it private, they'll need to settle this before it goes to trial. In doing so, they can require the plaintiffs to sign a non-disclosure regarding the information, and those of us outside the lawsuit won't be able to see the actual figures.

IMO, while Disney has strong incentives to require a park reservation system (mainly due to staffing, and no longer due to social distancing), the impact on guests is fairly extreme. You can see the failure of park reservations when you look at what happens at 2pm, when park hopping begins. I was there at AK last week and saw the park empty, and at Epcot and saw the park become so crowded you could barely walk. I don't know whether Disney has an accurate model of how park hopping affects the various parks, but based upon what I saw, it seems like they do not. They seem to be basing staffing on park reservations (opening to 2pm) and are guessing as to what park attendance will be when park hopping starts at 2pm. I spoke to several other guests who, during the Spring Break period, couldn't get their top choice of park. So, they tapped into the park they were able to get, then park hopped to where they wanted to actually be after 2pm.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

redboat45 said:


> I've seen reports where they actually aren't.


I had no problem at all purchasing one of these from guest services in Epcot in late February.


----------



## js

CraigInPA said:


> Disney will likely try to tag that as a "trade secret", which would prevent it from becoming public. But, as it is the central argument in the lawsuit, I suspect a judge would demand that it be public. IMO, if Disney wants to keep it private, they'll need to settle this before it goes to trial. In doing so, they can require the plaintiffs to sign a non-disclosure regarding the information, and those of us outside the lawsuit won't be able to see the actual figures.
> 
> IMO, while Disney has strong incentives to require a park reservation system (mainly due to staffing, and no longer due to social distancing), the impact on guests is fairly extreme. You can see the failure of park reservations when you look at what happens at 2pm, when park hopping begins. I was there at AK last week and saw the park empty, and at Epcot and saw the park become so crowded you could barely walk. I don't know whether Disney has an accurate model of how park hopping affects the various parks, but based upon what I saw, it seems like they do not. They seem to be basing staffing on park reservations (opening to 2pm) and are guessing as to what park attendance will be when park hopping starts at 2pm. I spoke to several other guests who, during the Spring Break period, couldn't get their top choice of park. So, they tapped into the park they were able to get, then park hopped to where they wanted to actually be after 2pm.



So, even if a park is "sold out" you can still go after 2 pm with an AP or hopper? I thought only if "available".
Thank you.


----------



## CraigInPA

js said:


> So, even if a park is "sold out" you can still go after 2 pm with an AP or hopper? I thought only if "available".
> Thank you.



Disney has never stated what "available" means. From my experience last week (when every park was sold out every day), "available" apparently means to "park capacity", which is a lot more than the number of "park reservations" initially offered. Epcot was so crowded at times that you literally had to hold onto your party members to avoid losing them in the crowds.


----------



## ML_LovesDisney

Disney has done a lot to frustrate me over the past few years, but when I go and analyze other vacations (and I OVER analyze: cost, things to do, etc), Disney just has the superior product for our family. This is why some people are willing to deal with it (including me). I sold our points in 2018-19 because my husband was disillusioned with Disney and didn't want to go as much. We then went on other trips, national parks, California, Med Cruise, etc. While I enjoyed my other trips, none were things I want to go back and do again and again, except for Mediterranean Cruise which is a once every 5-10 years vacation. I bought points again in 2020 and 2021 and plan to do at least one Disney vacation a year. I used to do 2-3 when my kids were younger, but now that's not as viable with their ages.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## CarolynFH

js said:


> So, even if a park is "sold out" you can still go after 2 pm with an AP or hopper? I thought only if "available".
> Thank you.


Yes.  The only time a park has been closed to hopping was MK for a few hours on the afternoon of October 1, the 50th anniversary.  No parks have been closed to hopping other than that, not even during the Thanksgiving - Christmas - New Year's holidays and not during the recent Spring Break crush.  BTW WDW has a phone number you can call before you hop (407-560-5000) to make sure the park you want is "available," but it doesn't seem that anyone is using it currently.


----------



## SL6827

So this had nothing to do with guest safety, but rather Disney's greed.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Sandisw

SL6827 said:


> So this had nothing to do with guest safety, but rather Disney's greed.



From what I remember, the park reservation system had been an idea long before the pandemic, but was finalized to limit capacity once they reopened, based on state and federal guidelines as well as other factors.  They never published what capacity was, but in the month or two after re-opening, there were definitely days that sold out for all ticket types.

However, how many spots they allowed into the buckets for certain ticket types was definitely something geared toward profit.  What got them in trouble was selling AP's that had no block out dates, but then limiting the number of reservations in their bucket, while allowing the other buckets to continue to fill, leaving AP holders out in the cold, even though the park had not yet reached the overall capacity total that was in effect...which we now know is going to stay much lower than it had in the past before the pandemic.


----------



## kdm31091

I doubt they discontinue the program entirely. Why spend marketing budget on making new magnets that people stand in line for, etc, if you want them to stop being APs?


----------



## CraigInPA

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I do not believe the park reservation system was due to either of those.  Upon re-opening with low attendance caps, the reservation system was helpful.  But, it appears a main reason for developing it was because Disney collected data showed them that ticketed guests spent more per individual per park day than passholders.  Disney developed reservations and the admission allocation bucket system among ticketed guests, resort guests and passholders in an effort to prioritize space for their most profitable guests.  (Note:  If Disney had done park reservations with a "first come - first serve" it would have been much the same as prior to the pandemic.  However, the addition of buckets, solely controlled by the wants of Disney, was the tell tale footprint that shows this was done to reduce passholder attendance in favor of more profitable guest types.) This is discussed in detail earlier in this thread.  Now, the reservation system may provide Disney with more data that they need to determine how many annual passes they will have outstanding at any time.  The reservation system and the park turnstiles may also give them more data about the effect of park hopping.  It is a new age of huge data crunching and Disney is learning a lot about their guests with the new digital information.  So, even if Disney gained full staffing, we would continue to see the reservation up through early 2024, and perhaps beyond.  Disney seems to treat it as permanent.



Disney stated that their original purpose of the park reservation system was because they were reducing the number of attendees to each park due to social distancing in 2020 after reopening following the 4 month closure (look it up, it's been well reported, the attendance cap was reported as 25%, and the "employee call back" figures were published). This was reinforced at the 2022 Morgan Stanley Tech Conference, as reported by disneydining, "McCarthy (CFO Christine McCarthy) said that the system was necessary as Disney dealt with capacity limitations as the parks reopened. But she says the company realized quickly that the system could continue to be used after those limitations were gone as a tool to “manage attendance.” 

And this, precisely, is why Disney will lose the California AP case. Disney can't sell an AP with specific black out dates and then "prioritize" higher revenue guests, thereby creating more black out dates for AP holders, unless they clearly specify that this is the case when the AP is sold. Doing that violates consumer protection laws.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

Having lived in FL for 5 yrs & being AMAZED at the difference in rules, regs, statutes, & laws (or lack thereof) regarding everything + consumer protection compared to my home state, I do wonder if WDW will differ from DL in what the company is allowed to do or forced to do. FL seems very "local" administratively. So many things differ among counties, towns & then communities.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

CraigInPA said:


> Disney stated that their original purpose of the park reservation system was because they were reducing the number of attendees to each park due to social distancing in 2020 after reopening following the 4 month closure (look it up, it's been well reported, the attendance cap was reported as 25%, and the "employee call back" figures were published). This was reinforced at the 2022 Morgan Stanley Tech Conference, as reported by disneydining, "McCarthy (CFO Christine McCarthy) said that the system was necessary as Disney dealt with capacity limitations as the parks reopened. But she says the company realized quickly that the system could continue to be used after those limitations were gone as a tool to* “manage attendance.”*
> 
> And this, precisely, is why Disney will lose the California AP case. Disney can't sell an AP with specific black out dates and then "prioritize" higher revenue guests, thereby creating more black out dates for AP holders, unless they clearly specify that this is the case when the AP is sold. Doing that violates consumer protection laws.



_*Manage cost*_ is likely more correct now but that doesn't sound as good.  _*Managing attendance*_ sounds like it might be beneficial for the guests and likely was part of the idea that backfired with the AP issue.  From crowded pictures it's difficult to feel like they actually are doing much in actual attendance now.  I'll be seeing it in person next week but my overall sense is there's little in the way of a cap.  Having an approximate of how many will buy daily tickets upon arrival plus the pre-reservation system in theory allows for better staffing minimums and even purchasing.


----------



## nuhusky123

wdw is bringing back the Minnie van, perhaps we are seeing a return to pre covid offerings. Dare I say ap is soon to follow?


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

nuhusky123 said:


> wdw is bringing back the Minnie van, perhaps we are seeing a return to pre covid offerings. Dare I say ap is soon to follow?



Extended hours.  Minnie vans.  

Perhaps they've decided they've squeezed as much out of the turnips as they dare without giving a bit back.


----------



## RoseGold

kdm31091 said:


> I doubt they discontinue the program entirely. Why spend marketing budget on making new magnets that people stand in line for, etc, if you want them to stop being APs?



I don't think a few hundred bucks in magnets is going to decide anything.


----------



## mistysue

RoseGold said:


> I don't think a few hundred bucks in magnets is going to decide anything.


Agreed,  I can't imagine a board meeting when ending APs comes up and the counterpoint is "but who would we give these free magnets to?!?"


----------



## lowlight

mistysue said:


> Agreed,  I can't imagine a board meeting when ending APs comes up and the counterpoint is "but who would we give these free magnets to?!?"


Rumor has it magical express was almost saved because they had just minted some new trading pins.


----------



## ScubaCat

CraigInPA said:


> You can see the failure of park reservations when you look at what happens at 2pm, when park hopping begins. I was there at AK last week and saw the park empty, and at Epcot and saw the park become so crowded you could barely walk. I don't know whether Disney has an accurate model of how park hopping affects the various parks, but based upon what I saw, it seems like they do not. They seem to be basing staffing on park reservations (opening to 2pm) and are guessing as to what park attendance will be when park hopping starts at 2pm. I spoke to several other guests who, during the Spring Break period, couldn't get their top choice of park. So, they tapped into the park they were able to get, then park hopped to where they wanted to actually be after 2pm.


On October 1st, they cut off park hopping for a few hours.  It can certainly be done, and they obviously have a cap.

Most likely Epcot wasn't anywhere near the allocated capacity, despite it seeming crowded.  In fact, I don't recall Epcot ever reaching capacity...... It may have, I'm just not sure other than if it did, it's extremely rare.  On a typical NYE, MK hits offsite capacity (meaning the limit to guests not staying on-property) around 10-11am but eventually reopens around 5-6pm after a certain volume leaves.  Epcot's just not been a problem due to it's size.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

nuhusky123 said:


> wdw is bringing back the Minnie van, perhaps we are seeing a return to pre covid offerings. Dare I say ap is soon to follow?


No. The mini van is revenue enhancing. According to Cheapick AP’s are revenue killers.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

Maistre Gracey said:


> No. The mini van is revenue enhancing. According to Cheapick AP’s are revenue killers.



He should drop the Florida resident pass and replace it with a dvc/onsite pass.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Prince John Robin Hood said:


> He should drop the Florida resident pass and replace it with a dvc/onsite pass.


Well, I guess they already did that to some extent for residents. Not sure why they would do that for on site guests as long as they fill rooms, but anything is possible.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## sheilafri

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You are welcome.  My views are theories.  I do not claim insider information.  It is more like an educated guess.
> 
> Disney does not want you to discontinue renewing.  Disney is not emotionally invested in what individual owns their APs.  If they crunch the new data being collected via the park reservation and determine the ideal mix of ticket guests and passholders, and if they have more passholder capacity, they will again offer some kind of passholder product.  They invited you to use a discount in early March because that is one of the space available lower attendance periods they wanted passholders to fill.  An additional discount is A better management tool than unilaterally making up artificial, additional blockout days!  Simple as that.  You may see more of those.
> 
> Do not let your annual pass expire!  I agree!


Can you explain further why you don’t think a person should let their pass expire?  Do you think it applies even if eligible for the currently offered pass—Pixie Dust in FL?


----------



## mistysue

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Your suggestion contrasts only DVC and onsite hotel room vs Florida residents.  Florida residents can also stay in hotel rooms or are DVC members.  Likewise, guests who are not local (travel from a distance) may stay in their own 2nd home property, be guests of local family or friends, stay in off-site hotels, Air B&B, RV travelers campsites, military Space-A accommodations at nearby military facilities or other accommodations.  For your purposes, let's compare locals (Florida residents) vs travelers, because it is probable that Disney has some legal obligation as a result of real estate planning and development permits under environmental impact requirements.  Also, although we do not know the exact numbers, because Disney treats park attendance numbers as proprietary information, let's assume that overall, the daily mix consists of 35% local and 65% travelers.  It was 50% travelers immediately after re-opening, but that is when foreign travel was **** down and the mix was skewed by covid impacts domestically.  Let's also assume for purposes of this hypothesis that Disney does want to maintain some base of annual passholders because their annual payments are a solid base floor of revenue for Disney and it protects a fan base from which future fan base grows.  Now, I really would like to hear some suggestions on going forward with prepaid admissions.  Remember, there must be some kind of locals, Florida resident deal.  Otherwise, it is wide open for future gate admission; assuming they sunset the current AP program and start from a blank sheet of paper.  Also, try not to anger the fan base too much.



The catch is Florida resident pass is the only one it seems likely truly kills revenue. 
Locals aren't buying the same level of merchandise (no urgent need to get it today, they can hit resale or come back another day) 
Locals are more likely to eat at home or on their way for $5 instead of $70 at a buffet. 

If they opened types of passes that required you to be onsite, now they have you locked in. They are making money off of you before you even enter the gates, even though they didn't sell a new pass every trip. They have control over providing needs like food and misc products you pick up on site. Hotel guests buy overpriced batteries, $12 aloe lotion, $5 lemonaid rather than stopping at an off site shop or waiting until they get home. 
Locals could buy on-site passes and stay onsite,  or they could offer both. But at the root of it the reason APs are a revenue killer is because of locals.


----------



## dcfromva

CraigInPA said:


> IMO, while Disney has strong incentives to require a park reservation system (mainly due to staffing, and no longer due to social distancing), the impact on guests is fairly extreme. You can see the failure of park reservations when you look at what happens at 2pm, when park hopping begins. I was there at AK last week and saw the park empty, and at Epcot and saw the park become so crowded you could barely walk....





Ms Bibbidi said:


> I do not believe the park reservation system was due to either of those.  Upon re-opening with low attendance caps, the reservation system was helpful.  But, it appears a main reason for developing it was because Disney collected data showed them that ticketed guests spent more per individual per park day than passholders.  Disney developed reservations and the admission allocation bucket system among ticketed guests, resort guests and passholders in an effort to prioritize space for their most profitable guests.  (Note:  If Disney had done park reservations with a "first come - first serve" it would have been much the same as prior to the pandemic.  However, the addition of buckets, solely controlled by the wants of Disney, was the tell tale footprint that shows this was done to reduce passholder attendance in favor of more profitable guest types.) This is discussed in detail earlier in this thread.  Now, the reservation system may provide Disney with more data that they need to determine how many annual passes they will have outstanding at any time.  The reservation system and the park turnstiles may also give them more data about the effect of park hopping.  It is a new age of huge data crunching and Disney is learning a lot about their guests with the new digital information.  So, even if Disney gained full staffing, we would continue to see the reservation up through early 2024, and perhaps beyond.  Disney seems to treat it as permanent.



  I tend to agree.  With the exception of one advantage, I don't think the reservation system does much to enhance the guest experience.  I'm not even convinced that it necessarily helps Disney determine staffing levels because of the reports of uneven guest experiences (especially on the Disneyland/CA adventure side of things). 

  The one advantage to the reservation system for guests is you know you will be admitted to the park for which you have a reservation.  Disney has always had maximum capacities for their parks.  On peak days, you _always _ran the risk that you would not be admitted and would be turned away.   (Although, at Disney World my  pre-pandemic experience was there was usually one park that had not reached capacity during peak times--maybe someone could chime in as to whether there have been many times where _all _the parks reached capacity pre-pandemic?)   

Honestly, in all my (pre-pandemic) visits I have never not been able to go into _a_ park at WDW (And, we have gone many times during Christmas/New Years and Spring Break). Maybe the capacity issue has changed substantially. Maybe it hasn't. It's all speculation because we don't have that proprietary information. Maybe there is a lot of pent up demand and that is what is disrupting this?

  Anyway, besides_ (allegedly)_ targeting the folks that statistically spend the most money, the reservation system also provides a huge cash infusion due to FOMO.  You buy non-refundable tickets as soon as you possibly can so that you can make reservations as soon as you possibly can.  

  In regards to collecting data on annual pass holders, I would be surprised if they didn't already have this data between magic band tracking, annual pass discounts and guest folios, etc.    Right now I think the data may be skewed because Disney stopped selling annual passes and some of the folks buying regular passes might have purchased annual passes if given the opportunity and also Disney imposed a limit on how many folks holding annual passes that can go into the parks.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## kilik64

Ms Bibbidi said:


> There is a saying, "Don't bet the farm."



Got a better one for ya.

Pigs get fed. Hogs get slaughtered.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## nuhusky123

kilik64 said:


> Got a better one for ya.
> 
> Pigs get fed. Hogs get slaughtered.


Is Disney the pig and guests the hog?

personally I’m hoping Disney become the hog


----------



## kilik64

nuhusky123 said:


> Is Disney the pig and guests the hog?
> 
> personally I’m hoping Disney become the hog


Yea disney is the pig and the hog. Speaks to them pushing a little too far, getting a little too greedy, going from a pig to a hog and getting slaughtered as a result.

Ms Bibbidi insight in the CA lawsuit is fantastic, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on it. I think they are going to lose badly on it, either at trial or through a fairly large settlement. CA does not mess around when it comes to consumer protection issues.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## CarolMN

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You are welcome to my thoughts about it.  I have revised my thinking as a result of comments here too.  So we both benefited.  The case is serious.  We shall see.


We've all benefited.  Thank you for your perspectives and thank you to everyone who has contributed.  This subject is both fascinating and infuriating!


----------



## DduzDis

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I do not believe the park reservation system was due to either of those.  Upon re-opening with low attendance caps, the reservation system was helpful.  But, it appears a main reason for developing it was because Disney collected data showed them that ticketed guests spent more per individual per park day than passholders.  Disney developed reservations and the admission allocation bucket system among ticketed guests, resort guests and passholders in an effort to prioritize space for their most profitable guests.  (Note:  If Disney had done park reservations with a "first come - first serve" it would have been much the same as prior to the pandemic.  However, the addition of buckets, solely controlled by the wants of Disney, was the tell tale footprint that shows this was done to reduce passholder attendance in favor of more profitable guest types.) This is discussed in detail earlier in this thread.  Now, the reservation system may provide Disney with more data that they need to determine how many annual passes they will have outstanding at any time.  The reservation system and the park turnstiles may also give them more data about the effect of park hopping.  It is a new age of huge data crunching and Disney is learning a lot about their guests with the new digital information.  So, even if Disney gained full staffing, we would continue to see the reservation up through early 2024, and perhaps beyond.  Disney seems to treat it as permanent.



Would Disney not be able to compile this data from actual taps at the admissions gate with magicbands or some entry media? Same for data collection re: park hopping for that matter.  Tickets and APs have to be linked to MDE anyway.  While I am not a fan of this kind of data collection, it is far less intrusive on the customer experience IMO.


----------



## mistysue

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think one of the things you must consider in my hypothesis is Disney is probably legally required to offer an advantaged gate admission price to local residents.  Revenue killing or not, If they are required to have certain sewer requirements or build something to fire code, they are probably also required to do this.  So, in our hypothesis, we cannot shut out Florida residents.  It is part of their cost of doing business and it has to be meaningful and widely available.


Yes,  but to me that plays into why it's short sighted for them to NOT do that sort of alternate type of pass. They may not really want the locals to buy the APs, but unfortunately they do, and it's a losing scenario when we don't consider it's likey the result of some sort of tax or other advantage they get from the state, which I bet Chapek doesn't use to help calculate the value of those passes. (assuming they are required to have a FL discount, they are getting something in exchange for it)
Anyway, if they offered a pass you needed to be in their hotels to use, they could have a segment of AP's that were back to being revenue generators, balancing out that portion of their revenue stream and making all AP sales look a little better in their reports.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## dcfromva

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The spontaneity guests had without park reservations was fun and consistent with a vacationing mood.



  One of my friends used to get on the next bus (whichever park it was going).   She didn't do the advance FP+--if the wait for a particular attraction was too long, she would do something else.   She always had a lovely time.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## SL6827

CarolMN said:


> We've all benefited.  Thank you for your perspectives and thank you to everyone who has contributed.  This subject is both fascinating and infuriating!


Yes, fascinating and infuriating!!!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## AvidDisReader

I just looked up the status of this legal action.  It has been elevated to US district court.  I would expect the plantiffs to win, after a long drawn out legal fight.  However, not so sure they will win on appeal.  The out is that Disney was clear that there may not be availability on any given day.  I wonder if this whole thing would go away if Disney just ended the bucket system.  I lot depends on Disney's appetite to drag this out for years.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

dcfromva said:


> I tend to agree.  With the exception of one advantage, I don't think the reservation system does much to enhance the guest experience.  I'm not even convinced that it necessarily helps Disney determine staffing levels because of the reports of uneven guest experiences (especially on the Disneyland/CA adventure side of things).
> 
> The one advantage to the reservation system for guests is you know you will be admitted to the park for which you have a reservation.  Disney has always had maximum capacities for their parks.  On peak days, you _always _ran the risk that you would not be admitted and would be turned away.   (Although, at Disney World my  pre-pandemic experience was there was usually one park that had not reached capacity during peak times--maybe someone could chime in as to whether there have been many times where _all _the parks reached capacity pre-pandemic?)
> 
> Honestly, in all my (pre-pandemic) visits I have never not been able to go into _a_ park at WDW (And, we have gone many times during Christmas/New Years and Spring Break). Maybe the capacity issue has changed substantially. Maybe it hasn't. It's all speculation because we don't have that proprietary information. Maybe there is a lot of pent up demand and that is what is disrupting this?
> 
> Anyway, besides_ (allegedly)_ targeting the folks that statistically spend the most money, the reservation system also provides a huge cash infusion due to FOMO.  You buy non-refundable tickets as soon as you possibly can so that you can make reservations as soon as you possibly can.
> 
> In regards to collecting data on annual pass holders, I would be surprised if they didn't already have this data between magic band tracking, annual pass discounts and guest folios, etc.    Right now I think the data may be skewed because Disney stopped selling annual passes and some of the folks buying regular passes might have purchased annual passes if given the opportunity and also Disney imposed a limit on how many folks holding annual passes that can go into the parks.





AvidDisReader said:


> I wonder if this whole thing would go away if Disney just ended the bucket system.


Even if Disney ends the bucket system there are other problems with the park pass system.  Disney sells date-based tickets now, charging more money for premium dates that are more likely to sell out.  If you sell date-based tickets and then every park hits capacity and someone with a date-based ticket can’t go to any park, I think that’s eventually going to be problematic and potentially the source of a lawsuit as well.  There’s a reason that every other theme park int he country gave up reservation systems after covid crowd control fell out of favor.


----------



## SL6827

The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct.  I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?


----------



## nuhusky123

SL6827 said:


> The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct.  I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?


Given gfv does not open to non dvc members until March 31 I doubt it. Let’s see what April and may sales are

i do think it makes selling gfv harder to new members, not impossible but it certainly won’t help


----------



## Sandisw

SL6827 said:


> The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct.  I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?



Honestly I don’t think so.  I bet less DVC owners buy APs than you think. As I shared, I know about 15 other DVC families personally, and not one of them buy APs because they don’t go more than once a year. 

I really think we overestimate the new buyers who go in and buy because perks like an AP over buying for the benefits of owning it for what it is.


----------



## SL6827

This will be very interesting to see how all this pans out. I think Disney really is up the creek with this stunt.


----------



## New Mouse

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Even if Disney ends the bucket system there are other problems with the park pass system.  Disney sells date-based tickets now, charging more money for premium dates that are more likely to sell out.  If you sell date-based tickets and then every park hits capacity and someone with a date-based ticket can’t go to any park, I think that’s eventually going to be problematic and potentially the source of a lawsuit as well.  There’s a reason that every other theme park int he country gave up reservation systems after covid crowd control fell out of favor.



The number of times Disney has sold out any park in the past 10 years can be counted on 10 fingers.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

New Mouse said:


> The number of times Disney has sold out any park in the past 10 years can be counted on 10 fingers.


Disney’s park ticket bucket has been filled to capacity on many dates over the last several times.


----------



## Mai Ku Tiki

Ms Bibbidi said:


> FYI.  Right now, there are a lot of 10-12 "bedroom" "houses" being cheaply built and sold immediately southwest of the Disney World property.  The bedrooms are the size of a large closet!  I would bet my "believe it." that those were not ever intended as permanent homes for "large families."  They sound like Air B&Bs to me.  The damage that is going to do to nearby properties is huge.  Disney has experience with that kind of thing from the Anaheim area in California.  IIRC Walt Disney himself was so very disappointed in that nearby development.  It was one of the reasons Disney World came to be.  Disney recently announced they were going to build some Storybook housing.  So far this is in other areas of the country.  However, they did just buy 36 acres immediately west of Disney World.



Possibly OT but for those interested & not familiar with Central FLA, those types of "investment" communities are extremely common. I'm sure there are stats somewhere. They are sold as Vacation Homes & zoned for short-term rental. They've been around for decades. They are not marketed as permanent homes. Their HOAs sometimes regulate even interior upkeep (refurbs/soft-goods) & can offer rental/management services. Not sure too many then were built as 10-12 BRs but 6-8 wasn't uncommon. There are probably thousands of those homes now.
Additionally, there are condo & smaller homes communities zoned short-term rental. It's a complete antithesis to Walt's original dream of unlimited 'space' for WDW to grow. In the decades since '71, developers, not Disney, have scooped up the land & built right up to Disney property lines. Urban sprawl, FLA-style.


----------



## keishashadow

SL6827 said:


> The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct.  I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?


I wonder if it is enough of a nudge to compel many ’disgruntled’ long-time DVC owners to pull the plug entirely.


----------



## sheilafri

kilik64 said:


> Got a better one for ya.
> 
> Pigs get fed. Hogs get slaughtered.


Another one:  if you’re not paying, you’re the product.


----------



## bakerworld

The only reason to join DVC is to save on the resort room. We joined DVC in '08 when a discounted room was $275/n. We just gifted a relative a night at BC to the tune of $687/n.


----------



## sheilafri

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Upon reconsideration, I think you are right about this.  Excellent point.  Thank you!  Current data would be skewed.  One caveat.  It appears Disney stopped artificially blocking passholders beyond the contracted pass block-out dates on November 24, 2021. Look at the current Disney World park reservation availability and you can see Tickets are limited, "Hotel" resorts are limited, but not Annual Passes (beyond the contractual block-out dates.)


Interesting that the original action regarding Disneyland Magic Key date limits was filed in early November.  . I don’t think that is coincidence.


----------



## CraigInPA

I'm not usually one to prognosticate (although my prediction of VGF2 as the next DVC was dead on), but let's look at the issues regarding APs:

1. AP's sold to Florida and California residents for use in FL and CA respectively yield lower revenue to Disney, both in terms of average admission price and average amount spent in the parks. Disney reports "gate figures" including these lower revenue residents. If Disney eliminates FL and CA passes, the gate figures will drop. No matter how much Chapek explains the "fundamental change" in eliminating these lower revenue guests, the stock price will take a hit. Investors will see the drop in gate figures as a sign that people are going elsewhere, and that Disney theme parks are in decline. If the stock drops in price, so does Chapek's income. If the stock drops too far, Chapek is replaced. This is further reinforced by the "return" of AP's for FL and CA following the pandemic closure, when Disney NEEDED those locals to come to the park to show that Disney parks were still a destination post-pandemic. So, FL and CA discounted passes aren't likely to disappear.

2. AP's sold to non-FL and CA residents are relatively small in number. They exist for the die hard Disney fans, which is a tiny number, and DVC members, which is a larger number. 

The non-DVC die hard fans are coming and staying, likely on site, for multiple trips or for very long trips (as we've seen with non-US users of this board). I don't think we can even guess as to what the behavior of the die hard fans are regarding revenue in park, since one can make the argument that die hard fans already probably own every souvenir, but the counter argument that new souvenirs come out monthly can quash that. I think it's safe to say that the die hard fan probably isn't staying or dining off site. So, their incremental revenue is probably close to, if not greater than, the "average" person who comes for a week and buys individual passes. The difference is their theme park admission price. Realistically, the theme park admission price is a smallish fraction of the entire trip considering the price of Disney lodging, food, and souvenirs. The numbers of passes sold in this category, and the iffiness of the revenue model, probably mean this will remain available, but only as an Incredipass.

The DVC members get a discount. DVC leverages that discount to sell direct contracts. DVC members aren't paying for Disney lodging. DVC members may or may not be paying for Disney food and souvenirs. DVC members are the "lower revenue customers" that Chapek would like to curtail in the park. But, the trade-off between the cash coming in from DVD/DVC and the lower revenue in the park isn't clearly defined. If DVC eliminates AP discounts, would that push people toward resale? Would it de-value DVC's direct sale pricing? If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney). I believe that DVC AP's will continue, if only because DVC, who has a seat at the table, will rightfully claim that eliminating one of the biggest direct sales incentives may cripple their future growth.

3. Theme parks in the northern part of the country aren't open all year. They sell annual passes before they open, typically for a period of a few months. I've had passes to three different parks near me. All were priced based upon a 3 day regular admission. I suspect this metric is based upon the average number of times a person actually uses their pass (using a multiplier, of course). If a typical pass is used 6 times, they're offering a 50% discount over regular admission pricing. Unless you are hyper-local, you're not likely attending a northern theme park more than 12 times a year.

Disney's AP is different. Disney is open all year around. They're pricing the Sorcerer pass based upon a 12 day average priced admission. By doing that, they're eliminating the AP from consideration for guests who are coming for a one time trip lasting a week. They're also eliminating the locals who won't use it for at least 12 days during the year. In effect, they're creating a perfect storm of locals who will use it like crazy, thereby increasing the gate figures, and people who plan on returning multiple times inside a one year period, or whose total stays are going to be longer than 12 days (which are your DVC members and non-US guests).

I think that AP's will return, if only to keep the gate figures up. Disney could have eliminated them during the pandemic, as it was the perfect time due to the park closure. "The parks are closed; gate figures are zero." But, when they re-opened, they needed to stop the stock price slide by showing that people still wanted to go to the parks. So, AP's were re-offered. 

4. The lawsuit in California is a good reason to halt AP sales. While Disney has changed the buckets, the fundamental problem of "low revenue customers" using AP's still exist. They'd still like to claim that their average revenue per customer is increasing, while maintaining or increasing their gate figures. But, greater AP use lowers that average revenue per customer figure. Their only way to increase that is to figure out ways to charge users more. 

Genie+ is a good example of getting more money out of a certain percentage of customers. If your daily admission is $100 and you get 33% of the people to buy Genie+, you're now averaging $105 per guest, a very respectable 5% revenue increase per customer.

individual lightning lanes are another way of getting more money out of park goers. I willingly forked over $25 per person to ride ROTR and Avatar this trip instead of waiting 2+ hours in line at each ride. 

Implement price increases on food, right up to the point where Disney executives are saying that they're going to reduce portion sizes (meaning they've hit the top of what people are willing to spend).

$24.99 for a T shirt. Really? Even with the 20% DVC discount, it was hard to justify buying one.

In Chapek's quest to show increasing key performance indicators (gate figures, revenue per guest, bottom line) to investors, he's boxed himself in. If he eliminates AP's, he's likely out. If he increases AP's, his KPI's suffer, so he needs more revenue opportunities. If he continues the recent trends on pricing and "nickel and diming" his customers, gate figures for higher revenue customers may fall as frustration builds in those customers. In addition, his goal of making Disney a more premium experience (i.e., more costly) competes with other premium experiences that can be afforded by those higher revenue customers. Would you prefer to take you children to WDW for a third time, or would you like to take them to Europe, Asia, or the Caribbean for less money and brand new experiences?


----------



## sheilafri

CraigInPA said:


> I'm not usually one to prognosticate (although my prediction of VGF2 as the next DVC was dead on), but let's look at the issues regarding APs:
> 
> 1. AP's sold to Florida and California residents for use in FL and CA respectively yield lower revenue to Disney, both in terms of average admission price and average amount spent in the parks. Disney reports "gate figures" including these lower revenue residents. If Disney eliminates FL and CA passes, the gate figures will drop. No matter how much Chapek explains the "fundamental change" in eliminating these lower revenue guests, the stock price will take a hit. Investors will see the drop in gate figures as a sign that people are going elsewhere, and that Disney theme parks are in decline. If the stock drops in price, so does Chapek's income. If the stock drops too far, Chapek is replaced. This is further reinforced by the "return" of AP's for FL and CA following the pandemic closure, when Disney NEEDED those locals to come to the park to show that Disney parks were still a destination post-pandemic. So, FL and CA discounted passes aren't likely to disappear.
> 
> 2. AP's sold to non-FL and CA residents are relatively small in number. They exist for the die hard Disney fans, which is a tiny number, and DVC members, which is a larger number.
> 
> The non-DVC die hard fans are coming and staying, likely on site, for multiple trips or for very long trips (as we've seen with non-US users of this board). I don't think we can even guess as to what the behavior of the die hard fans are regarding revenue in park, since one can make the argument that die hard fans already probably own every souvenir, but the counter argument that new souvenirs come out monthly can quash that. I think it's safe to say that the die hard fan probably isn't staying or dining off site. So, their incremental revenue is probably close to, if not greater than, the "average" person who comes for a week and buys individual passes. The difference is their theme park admission price. Realistically, the theme park admission price is a smallish fraction of the entire trip considering the price of Disney lodging, food, and souvenirs. The numbers of passes sold in this category, and the iffiness of the revenue model, probably mean this will remain available, but only as an Incredipass.
> 
> The DVC members get a discount. DVC leverages that discount to sell direct contracts. DVC members aren't paying for Disney lodging. DVC members may or may not be paying for Disney food and souvenirs. DVC members are the "lower revenue customers" that Chapek would like to curtail in the park. But, the trade-off between the cash coming in from DVD/DVC and the lower revenue in the park isn't clearly defined. If DVC eliminates AP discounts, would that push people toward resale? Would it de-value DVC's direct sale pricing? If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney). I believe that DVC AP's will continue, if only because DVC, who has a seat at the table, will rightfully claim that eliminating one of the biggest direct sales incentives may cripple their future growth.
> 
> 3. Theme parks in the northern part of the country aren't open all year. They sell annual passes before they open, typically for a period of a few months. I've had passes to three different parks near me. All were priced based upon a 3 day regular admission. I suspect this metric is based upon the average number of times a person actually uses their pass (using a multiplier, of course). If a typical pass is used 6 times, they're offering a 50% discount over regular admission pricing. Unless you are hyper-local, you're not likely attending a northern theme park more than 12 times a year.
> 
> Disney's AP is different. Disney is open all year around. They're pricing the Sorcerer pass based upon a 12 day average priced admission. By doing that, they're eliminating the AP from consideration for guests who are coming for a one time trip lasting a week. They're also eliminating the locals who won't use it for at least 12 days during the year. In effect, they're creating a perfect storm of locals who will use it like crazy, thereby increasing the gate figures, and people who plan on returning multiple times inside a one year period, or whose total stays are going to be longer than 12 days (which are your DVC members and non-US guests).
> 
> I think that AP's will return, if only to keep the gate figures up. Disney could have eliminated them during the pandemic, as it was the perfect time due to the park closure. "The parks are closed; gate figures are zero." But, when they re-opened, they needed to stop the stock price slide by showing that people still wanted to go to the parks. So, AP's were re-offered.
> 
> 4. The lawsuit in California is a good reason to halt AP sales. While Disney has changed the buckets, the fundamental problem of "low revenue customers" using AP's still exist. They'd still like to claim that their average revenue per customer is increasing, while maintaining or increasing their gate figures. But, greater AP use lowers that average revenue per customer figure. Their only way to increase that is to figure out ways to charge users more.
> 
> Genie+ is a good example of getting more money out of a certain percentage of customers. If your daily admission is $100 and you get 33% of the people to buy Genie+, you're now averaging $105 per guest, a very respectable 5% revenue increase per customer.
> 
> individual lightning lanes are another way of getting more money out of park goers. I willingly forked over $25 per person to ride ROTR and Avatar this trip instead of waiting 2+ hours in line at each ride.
> 
> Implement price increases on food, right up to the point where Disney executives are saying that they're going to reduce portion sizes (meaning they've hit the top of what people are willing to spend).
> 
> $24.99 for a T shirt. Really? Even with the 20% DVC discount, it was hard to justify buying one.
> 
> In Chapek's quest to show increasing key performance indicators (gate figures, revenue per guest, bottom line) to investors, he's boxed himself in. If he eliminates AP's, he's likely out. If he increases AP's, his KPI's suffer, so he needs more revenue opportunities. If he continues the recent trends on pricing and "nickel and diming" his customers, gate figures for higher revenue customers may fall as frustration builds in those customers. In addition, his goal of making Disney a more premium experience (i.e., more costly) competes with other premium experiences that can be afforded by those higher revenue customers. Would you prefer to take you children to WDW for a third time, or would you like to take them to Europe, Asia, or the Caribbean for less money and brand new experiences?


This may be one of the best analyses of an issue I’ve ever seen on a forum. It’s going to take me awhile to process everything but thank you for your well-reasoned musings.

Also, as much as I love Disney please consider other travel experiences. We took our children to Europe several times during their school years using relatively inexpensive packages. It fostered a love of travel and adventure in them.


----------



## aka Charles

CraigInPA said:


> If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney).



I recently bought into DVC for the resorts as much as for the parks, if not more.  
I really enjoy resort only days.
My plan has always been to have one long stay and a number of short stays each year.  
Getting an AP would be very beneficial, as buying tickets for 1-3 day stays, multiple times a year, would add up quickly.  

Until WDW APs for DVC members come back, I am looking at getting a UOAP.  
The UOAP Premier Pass for non-FL residents is less expensive than the Disney Sorcerer Pass and includes free Valet & Prime Self-Parking, Universal Express After 4 pm, and Early Park Admission.
This might be my go-to plan until WDW APs come back.


----------



## keishashadow

aka Charles said:


> I am looking at getting a UOAP.


have held AP at U for decades, prices slowly rising.  tend to get a top tier for myself, seasonal for family who don’t visit as often as easy enough to upgrade at the gate if we run into blackout dates.

be aware there have been surveys sent out to PH with Qs as to possibility of going to park reservation system also.


----------



## Blondie58

zavandor said:


> Things are not yet 100% in the parks. Many shows are still dark or in reduced form, no real character meet, mostly no street entertainment, restaurants are not 100%. For many days park passes are sold out which means they meet their reduced cap.
> Once all those thing are back, AP will be back.
> If they planned to discontinue or alter dramatically the AP programme, they would have done like in DL. They are still allowing AP renewals, which means new sales will restart. We don't know when and it is certainly a huge issue for people with vacations booked in the next few weeks.


Prices are at 100% PLUS.  lol


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

aka Charles said:


> I recently bought into DVC for the resorts as much as for the parks, if not more.
> I really enjoy resort only days.
> My plan has always been to have one long stay and a number of short stays each year.
> Getting an AP would be very beneficial, as buying tickets for 1-3 day stays, multiple times a year, would add up quickly.
> 
> Until WDW APs for DVC members come back, I am looking at getting a UOAP.
> The UOAP Premier Pass for non-FL residents is less expensive than the Disney Sorcerer Pass and includes free Valet & Prime Self-Parking, Universal Express After 4 pm, and Early Park Admission.
> This might be my go-to plan until WDW APs come back.



We went top level for UOAP and I don't regret it.  The express pass after 4 worked well and the only negative was that prime parking was typically gone by early afternoon when we'd arrive.  Knowing that we can do almost any ride with a 20 minutes or less wait during spring break was way less stressful than doing Disney.

I'd like WDW to expand evening hours to include MK, HS and Epcot every week.  It's a good perk and it should be MK and HS if they're only doing 2 parks.  Wait times at HS are way worse than Epcot.


----------



## Brian Noble

CraigInPA said:


> Theme parks in the northern part of the country aren't open all year. They sell annual passes before they open, typically for a period of a few months. I've had passes to three different parks near me. All were priced based upon a 3 day regular admission.


For my market (Cedar Point, Kings Island, etc.) the break-even point for a season pass is somewhere between two and three days---and over time it has drifted closer to two.

For the WDW and DLR markets, the break-even point seems to have been between two and three "visits" of several days each. If you come twice in a year for 4-5 days each trip, an AP is very close to break-even for most people, maybe a few dollars more. This ratio has been pretty consistent for most of the time I've been paying attention (about 15 years now). For example, a mid-May visit with a five day hopper is about $600 pre-tax. The relevant AP for most people would be $1300 pre-tax. That's pretty close to two visits, and you can justify the extra $100 in theme park parking, merch/dining/resort discounts, etc. etc. etc. if you wanted to.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

Received a survey from our just completed trip and lack of AP's was an option for why we were going to Universal instead.  The park pass system was also an option.


----------



## nuhusky123

Prince John Robin Hood said:


> Received a survey from our just completed trip and lack of AP's was an option for why we were going to Universal instead.  The park pass system was also an option.


Wouldn’t it be awesome if They looked at the surveys

i can say where I work customer satisfaction surveys matter but only if trends appear. id expect Disney is the same so hopefully lacking ap becomes a trend concern for Disney


----------



## DisneyMountainWoman

CraigInPA said:


> I'm not usually one to prognosticate (although my prediction of VGF2 as the next DVC was dead on), but let's look at the issues regarding APs:
> 
> 2. AP's sold to non-FL and CA residents are relatively small in number. They exist for the die hard Disney fans, which is a tiny number, and DVC members, which is a larger number.
> 
> The non-DVC die hard fans are coming and staying, likely on site, for multiple trips or for very long trips (as we've seen with non-US users of this board). I don't think we can even guess as to what the behavior of the die hard fans are regarding revenue in park, since one can make the argument that die hard fans already probably own every souvenir, but the counter argument that new souvenirs come out monthly can quash that. I think it's safe to say that the die hard fan probably isn't staying or dining off site. So, their incremental revenue is probably close to, if not greater than, the "average" person who comes for a week and buys individual passes. The difference is their theme park admission price. Realistically, the theme park admission price is a smallish fraction of the entire trip considering the price of Disney lodging, food, and souvenirs. The numbers of passes sold in this category, and the iffiness of the revenue model, probably mean this will remain available, but only as an Incredipass.
> 
> The DVC members get a discount. DVC leverages that discount to sell direct contracts. DVC members aren't paying for Disney lodging. DVC members may or may not be paying for Disney food and souvenirs. DVC members are the "lower revenue customers" that Chapek would like to curtail in the park. But, the trade-off between the cash coming in from DVD/DVC and the lower revenue in the park isn't clearly defined. If DVC eliminates AP discounts, would that push people toward resale? Would it de-value DVC's direct sale pricing? If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney). I believe that DVC AP's will continue, if only because DVC, who has a seat at the table, will rightfully claim that eliminating one of the biggest direct sales incentives may cripple their future growth.
> ?


 I know we are doing more resort days since we could not buy the AP pass. Resort days means less money from us since we have a kitchen we are making more of our meals instead of eating out. Also pool days means less chance to pass a gift shop so we are not buying as many things either. They are getting less money from us not allowing AP pass. 

If the trend continues we already talked about as a family that we will buy a AP from universal, and just do MK one day. They are loosing money from people like us.


----------



## kilik64

DisneyMountainWoman said:


> If the trend continues we already talked about as a family that we will buy a AP from universal, and just do MK one day. They are loosing money from people like us.



Nah being replaced by someone else spending even more. Hard truth on it.


----------



## jimim

To answer the OP question:

Just simply don't go. . . If AP come back I will go back as usual.  If they don't I continue to rent my points out and bank my money.  My DVC was paid in cash up front. I got a ton of trips out of it. I'll rent to pay off my dues and hold steady. . . I truly don't need Disney right now. And I don't even care about the DVC discount. I'll pay full price I don't really care.  The biggest benefit of the season pass was being able to go 2-4 trips regardless of what I paid cause once I hit that second trip it was all profit at that point.  Paying for park tickets per trip now if we were still going as often would hurt pretty bad.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

kilik64 said:


> Nah being replaced by someone else spending even more. Hard truth on it.



Not necessarily.  Lots of the people are staying offsite and not spending a lot in the parks.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

kilik64 said:


> Nah being replaced by someone else spending even more. Hard truth on it.


Yup.  Chapek has calculated that right now, he isn’t losing any money by offering DVC members very little.  The parks are near capacity every day.  The restaurants (even the quick service ones) are near capacity every day.  Merchandise is flying off the shelves and Disney can’t keep them stocked.  This is short-sighted because when the inevitable downturn comes, Disney having alienated it’s most dedicated supporters will not have been great.  But right now?  DIsney isn’t losing anything when a DVC member stays home, or stays in his or her room.

Chapek already got your money when you bought into DVC.  He’d love nothing more than for your points to go to breakage inventory so he can sell them to cash guests paying $1,000 a night.


----------



## Sandisw

Prince John Robin Hood said:


> Not necessarily.  Lots of the people are staying offsite and not spending a lot in the parks.



Not sure this is true. Things are doing very well in terms of profits for Disney.

So, while people have adjusted, I think they have  to be pretty happy with the crowds right now.


----------



## ILoveMyDVC

Sandisw said:


> Honestly I don’t think so.  I bet less DVC owners buy APs than you think. As I shared, I know about 15 other DVC families personally, and not one of them buy APs because they don’t go more than once a year.
> 
> I really think we overestimate the new buyers who go in and buy because perks like an AP over buying for the benefits of owning it for what it is.


I could get deleted for this comment but I agree with Sandisw - it's a whole can of worms on the DVC boards.   Too many people buying too few points that barely allow then to stay once every other year IF THERE IS AVAILABILITY for too few studios.  

For people like me with 1000+ points, losing the APs would be devastating.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

Sandisw said:


> Not sure this is true. Things are doing very well in terms of profits for Disney.
> 
> So, while people have adjusted, I think they have  to be pretty happy with the crowds right now.



The large crowds aren't due to resort only guests though.  Offsite guests have the same access to the parks as onsite currently.  

Park revenues are back to pre-pandemic levels but costs are higher.  This is part of the reason that Disney's stock is performing so poorly.  Inflation hits their businesses especially hard.  

To your point though they've increased ticket prices significantly and are still seeing large crowds.  Ideally they'll open up everything that's currently closed and allow for increased capacity.  I'd love to see AP's return prior to the summer.


----------



## Sandisw

ILoveMyDVC said:


> I could get deleted for this comment but I agree with Sandisw - it's a whole can of worms on the DVC boards.   Too many people buying too few points that barely allow then to stay once every other year IF THERE IS AVAILABILITY for too few studios.
> 
> For people like me with 1000+ points, losing the APs would be devastating.



Nothing wrong with your comment and this is true. I think this is why we have seen DVD go back to enforcing the 150 point minimum. Selling small contracts created the imbalance for studios.

I truly believe an AP of some sort will be back and now really believe the lawsuit is what is holding things up because I would have placed a lot of money on them starting sales again.

I know as soon as they do, I will be buying another new pass, just to keep to adjust my current date as it’s not ideal..and so others have them.

It’s frustrating for sure for those that need them to enjoy the parks each and every trip.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

kilik64 said:


> Nah being replaced by someone else spending even more. Hard truth on it.



Replacement can only happen when a place is sold out and allowing nobody else in and there are people waiting in line to get in.   That isn't the case with Disney theme parks and never has been.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

KAT4DISNEY said:


> Replacement can only happen when a place is sold out and allowing nobody else in and there are people waiting in line to get in. That isn't the case with Disney theme parks and never has been


I mean that’s pretty close to the situation right now.  People keep posting “I’m not in the parks so I’m not eating at restaurants and I’m not buying merchandise.”  However, the restaurants are all fully booked and the merchandise is flying off the shelves so fast that Disney can’t keep them stocked.


----------



## Madame

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> I mean that’s pretty close to the situation right now.  People keep posting “I’m not in the parks so I’m not eating at restaurants and I’m not buying merchandise.”  However, the restaurants are all fully booked and the merchandise is flying off the shelves so fast that Disney can’t keep them stocked.


But the restaurants aren’t all open nor at full capacity.  The merchandise is limited quantities because of supply chain issues.  Not sure that what we see is an accurate reflection.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

The merchandise situation is way better now than what it was.  We noticed way more selection in March compared to December.  I didn't notice empty shelves like in December.

Some restaurants are still closed but I was seeing lots of good reservations pop up and snagged a few.  Definitely looking forward to everything being open and operating normally  though.


----------



## Brian Noble

kilik64 said:


> Nah being replaced by someone else spending even more. Hard truth on it.


Sure seems like it to me, based on both listening to the most recent quarterly call and just watching what is going on in the parks.



KAT4DISNEY said:


> Replacement can only happen when a place is sold out and allowing nobody else in and there are people waiting in line to get in.


That's _exactly_ what's happening. I just got back from a two-week stay, during which I had a 10-day PHP, plus a Sea World AP. For both weeks, most days were completely sold out at the Disney theme parks, even Epcot. It isn't getting much better---good chunks of April are already sold out at MK and DS, and a third of the month is already sold out at AK. Anecdotally, I heard a couple different people at Typhoon Lagoon talking about how they were trying to get an Epcot park pass that day, had kept checking over and over again, but couldn't.



AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> However, the restaurants are all fully booked and the merchandise is flying off the shelves so fast that Disney can’t keep them stocked.


I used to habitually book restaurants the night before, and sometimes even the morning of, and would see plenty of good availability thanks to the $10 no-show penalty. That was still possible, but it was harder, and there weren't nearly as many choices of places to eat. We also were _shocked_ at how many people were shopping on Main Street in the early afternoon on our way out of the breaks. We never remember seeing it that busy at that time of day.



Madame said:


> But the restaurants aren’t all open nor at full capacity. The merchandise is limited quantities because of supply chain issues. Not sure that what we see is an accurate reflection.


Could be, but doesn't matter. What matters is that _right now_ Disney is not wanting for more guests and it doesn't appear to be the case in April either.

Later on, when there is more capacity and/or the demand softens, APs will be back. Probably. Until then? Probably not.

It is changing my visit patterns. If we'd been able to get APs, I would have planned to come back for Food & Wine in October and again for a week in late February or early March. Now we're planning to do something else in October (maybe NOLA, or maybe visit one of the kids in grad school). Next February might be Disney on day tickets, or it might be Universal--it remains to be seen.


----------



## mistysue

Madame said:


> But the restaurants aren’t all open nor at full capacity.  The merchandise is limited quantities because of supply chain issues.  Not sure that what we see is an accurate reflection.


So true,  while planning our upcoming trip I keep wondering how different the "in the parks" experience is going to be vs the mad rush to get dining - at 60 + I was having trouble with SLOW places - and it's clearly an issue of holding back, as LTT isn't going to be packed to the gills at 11:30 on a Tuesday mid-May.


----------



## TiggerBouncy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> They can use other data to help place employees and supplies other than the park reservation system and buckets to allocate spots among types of guests.  *They did for over 60 years and did just fine.*



This argument is easily refuted; every business knows that just because you have done something for 60 years is not a good reason to keep doing it - in fact, if you have been doing it for 60 years, it's often a reason in and of itself to examine whether it makes sense. As Walt has said, "It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world". Sure, they did just fine - but that doesn't mean they can't do better. 



Sandisw said:


> Honestly I don’t think so.  I bet less DVC owners buy APs than you think.



We definably do overestimate the DVC holders who are AP. Obviously these boards are only reflective of a microcosim of the DVC family, but poll after poll done here and on other social medias show that MOST DVC members are not AP holders and that's not just because we can't get them right now.  

My favorite zebra who everyone here knows I get along with splendidly posted a poll a few weeks back asking if you would keep your DVC is AP's were gone and it had an overwhelming Yes response (54.2 Yes + 13.3 Maybe with only 32.5% voting no). Most of the responders indicated they do not hold AP's now or the cost change would not be significant enough of a deterrent. I myself have only held an AP in the the last third of my time as a DVC member and after I got my second contract. Obviously to some DVC owners, AP's are essential - but I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of DVC.


----------



## CarolMN

TiggerBouncy said:


> Obviously to some DVC owners, AP's are essential - but I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of DVC.


We have APs (and have had for the past several years), but I can't say for sure that it's been the most economical ticket choice.  It *is* the best choice for peace of mind, though, LOL.  I know me  - without the AP, I'd be all about getting the most out of each ticket day.  That's not much of a relaxing attitude or a relaxing vacation.

Currently struggling with the renewal decision.  If APs were available I would be buying new 60 days prior to our next trip with a plan to activate then.  If we renew, our renewal date is two months prior to our usual trip.  Hoping Disney decides to open AP sales soon.  But I agree with those who think it will depend on the lawsuit, so not especially optimistic that it will happen anytime soon.


----------



## zavandor

TiggerBouncy said:


> This argument is easily refuted; every business knows that just because you have done something for 60 years is not a good reason to keep doing it - in fact, if you have been doing it for 60 years, it's often a reason in and of itself to examine whether it makes sense. As Walt has said, "It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world". Sure, they did just fine - but that doesn't mean they can't do better.
> 
> 
> 
> We definably do overestimate the DVC holders who are AP. Obviously these boards are only reflective of a microcosim of the DVC family, but poll after poll done here and on other social medias show that MOST DVC members are not AP holders and that's not just because we can't get them right now.
> 
> My favorite zebra who everyone here knows I get along with splendidly posted a poll a few weeks back asking if you would keep your DVC is AP's were gone and it had an overwhelming Yes response (54.2 Yes + 13.3 Maybe with only 32.5% voting no). Most of the responders indicated they do not hold AP's now or the cost change would not be significant enough of a deterrent. I myself have only held an AP in the the last third of my time as a DVC member and after I got my second contract. Obviously to some DVC owners, AP's are essential - but I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of DVC.


32% is an insanely high amount of people. If 32% of members sell, the resale market will crash, hard.
But I don't think it'll happen, it's only a matter of when the AP will be back, not IF.


----------



## BeachClub2014

CarolMN said:


> We have APs (and have had for the past several years), but I can't say for sure that it's been the most economical ticket choice.  It *is* the best choice for peace of mind, though, LOL.  I know me  - without the AP, I'd be all about getting the most out of each ticket day.  That's not much of a relaxing attitude or a relaxing vacation.
> 
> Currently struggling with the renewal decision.  If APs were available I would be buying new 60 days prior to our next trip with a plan to activate then.  If we renew, our renewal date is two months prior to our usual trip.  Hoping Disney decides to open AP sales soon.  But I agree with those who think it will depend on the lawsuit, so not especially optimistic that it will happen anytime soon.



We've usually had AP's and they are important to us. We will likely renew them again this cycle. If for whatever reason we lose the ability to renew, I don't think their loss becomes a deal-breaker.


----------



## BeachClub2014

zavandor said:


> If 32% of members sell, the resale market will crash, hard.



I can totally understand the frustration and respect anyone's decision to sell their DVC contracts. Having said that, I'm not sure that it really matters to DVC at all as for every sold contract, there is a buyer. Someone will own and use those points.


----------



## kilik64

zavandor said:


> 32% is an insanely high amount of people. If 32% of members sell, the resale market will crash, hard.
> But I don't think it'll happen, it's only a matter of when the AP will be back, not IF.


Thats a poll on here, Id bet some money that the percent of people who would sell because of no ap is way lower in the total dvc population.

We fall into the never buying an AP so this doesnt really effect us camp. We plan to go once a year give or take for the foreseeable future and at most go to the parks 5 days, if not less like 3-4. Vast majority of dvc is like that, not the small echo chamber we have here on it. Just a small sliver of DVC.


----------



## zavandor

kilik64 said:


> Thats a poll on here, Id bet some money that the percent of people who would sell because of no ap is way lower in the total dvc population.
> 
> We fall into the never buying an AP so this doesnt really effect us camp. We plan to go once a year give or take for the foreseeable future and at most go to the parks 5 days, if not less like 3-4. Vast majority of dvc is like that, not the small echo chamber we have here on it. Just a small sliver of DVC.


We do not really know if the DIS members match the wider DVC membership community, however I'd say both include long term Disney fans who go to Disney often.
It is estimated that for a sold out resort, around 1% of contracts are sold every year (less when it's newer, then the percentage increases a bit). Even if not 32%, even just 5% would be a huge increase of contracts on the market, likely to severely affect price.
My point is: it's true the majority of DVC members may not be affected by the AP loss (me included), but still the poll showing 32% even thinking about selling because of it is huge.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## The Jackal

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Right now, they are stuck with current annual passholders and the spots they take.  Ending current passholders (sunsetting) would be a hugely expensive proposition.  If they do not allow new sales and cancel renewals it will still take more than a year -- because of the voucher and start at first visit situation.  So, how they end the current situation and start something new is also a consideration.
> Right now, "current passholder spots" are already taking more of the park spots than they want.  So, they have to deal with that first.


On most sold out dates there is available for pass holders.


----------



## RoseGold

Just months ago, these boards were doing math with a decade worth of "discounts" on APs to justify buying direct and "break even."  It was the most important perk. Now, everyone is acting like nobody wanted an AP anyway, and you don't care if it's completely gone.

If there's no AP, I'm out.  I'm completely out on Disney.  And I'm not the only one thinking like this.  I'm planning multiple trips for the summer, because it might be our last at Disney.  If they want full price ticket payers only, fine.  Maybe I'll see you again in a few years at the Halloween party and I'll rent some points for a night at Poly tower.

Cool thing about buying resale is this is easy to reverse.


----------



## Sandisw

RoseGold said:


> Just months ago, these boards were doing math with a decade worth of "discounts" on APs to justify buying direct and "break even."  It was the most important perk. Now, everyone is acting like nobody wanted an AP anyway, and you don't care if it's completely gone.
> 
> If there's no AP, I'm out.  I'm completely out on Disney.  And I'm not the only one thinking like this.  I'm planning multiple trips for the summer, because it might be our last at Disney.  If they want full price ticket payers only, fine.  Maybe I'll see you again in a few years at the Halloween party and I'll rent some points for a night at Poly tower.



I think these are two different things.  People here are relating not having an AP to depressing sales and/or selling.

Its not the same thing as deciding if one exists if it can offset the additional price of direct for those who see it as something they would use.

So, I think you can have both be true.  It’s just right now, since DPEP has suspended sales, it’s less of topic, not that it still cant Br part of the equation.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## SL6827

Ms Bibbidi said:


> That is currently an artificial situation.  They are showing green lights for passholders in accordance with normal block-out dates as per the pass type purchased -- unless - and only unless - they have reached that park's capacity (not a Disney chosen bucket capacity).  In fact, the current calendars show ticketed guests and resort guests have less availability than passholders (which is exactly opposite the guest type prioritization last October through November 23, 2021.)  They are doing this because of the lawsuit; in order not to increase the number of people as plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit.  Depending on Judicial rulings on various motions and the outcome of the lawsuit, this order of priority could change at any time.  The availability for passholders is litigation driven.  There is a rule in law that if a defendant has done something that allegedly caused an injury,. any correction they make to remedy the situation cannot be used as evidence.  So, Disney is free to make the correction without fear that their correction will be used against them in the lawsuit.


Exactly.  Disney is trying to back track now.


----------



## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> They are showing green lights for passholders in accordance with normal block-out dates as per the pass type purchased -- unless - and only unless - they have reached that park's capacity (not a Disney chosen bucket capacity). In fact, the current calendars show ticketed guests and resort guests have less availability than passholders (which is exactly opposite the guest type prioritization last October through November 23, 2021.) They are doing this because of the lawsuit; in order not to increase the number of people as plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit.



This is a very interesting wrinkle.  Definitely not how the mouse wanted to use this system.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> That is currently an artificial situation.  They are showing green lights for passholders in accordance with normal block-out dates as per the pass type purchased -- unless - and only unless - they have reached that park's capacity (not a Disney chosen bucket capacity).  In fact, the current calendars show ticketed guests and resort guests have less availability than passholders (which is exactly opposite the guest type prioritization last October through November 23, 2021.)  They are doing this because of the lawsuit; in order not to increase the number of people as plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit.  Depending on Judicial rulings on various motions and the outcome of the lawsuit, this order of priority could change at any time.  The availability for passholders is litigation driven.  There is a rule in law that if a defendant has done something that allegedly caused an injury,. any correction they make to remedy the situation cannot be used as evidence.  So, Disney is free to make the correction without fear that their correction will be used against them in the lawsuit.



And, the correction is a good thing and the way it should be from the start…which, had it been, no lawsuit would have been needed.

I don’t mind the reservation system at all so it staying in existence is fine…honestly, if a park is sold out, I don’t want to be there, and at least now I have an idea ahead of time.

I do like the possibility though that this could cause Disney to come up with a different type of pass that has unlimited features within certain parameters, like the suggestion of an AP that functions like no expiration multi-day ticket when one is an onsite guest


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## mistysue

Ms Bibbidi said:


> While I don't have a crystal ball (no one does), my educated guess tells me even if they do sunset annual passes in their current form they will do something else for bulk price gate admissions.  You might like it even more!  Who knows?  They will consider infrequent travelers, frequent locals, DVC owners, offsite avid Disney fans, the seniors or disabled who cannot tolerate a whole day in a park, special mobility needs, and many more groups.  It is a complicated thing driven some by profit of the guest types, but also by more than that.  Today's fans that buy DVC (often families) also raise tomorrow's fans.  No better way to pass on family values and traditions.  Not time to worry yet.  They will tweak and adjust.  It is an endless process.


There was a time I would have given anything for the tickets they sell international travelers- with 2-3 week ticket options as my first pick over APs. We used to be "once a year 14 day" travelers, and the 10 day tickets annoyed the crap out of me.


----------



## AvidDisReader

So APs go away permanently.  How many people who own DVC for at least 8 years are going to want to sell their points, and pay rack rates or rent DVC points at today's prices?  When I look at the current going rates it makes me ill.  I guess if the decision is that it is no longer a desire to go to WDW at all, I could see selling off DVC points.  Most of those that post on this forum are such big Disney fans, I just do not see it.


----------



## sethschroeder

Sandisw said:


> Things have been removed and an alternative not given. Case in point…valet parking.



Except was that listed in the Membership Extras? From my understanding it sounded like Valet Parking was actually covered by MFs. Wasn't around back then though so not sure I would be interested in the language pre-2009 though.


----------



## sethschroeder

AvidDisReader said:


> So APs go away permanently.  How many people who own DVC for at least 8 years are going to want to sell their points, and pay rack rates or rent DVC points at today's prices?  When I look at the current going rates it makes me ill.  I guess if the decision is that it is no longer a desire to go to WDW at all, I could see selling off DVC points.  Most of those that post on this forum are such big Disney fans, I just do not see it.



I don't think people are saying they will sell DVC and then go on cash. People are saying they will sell because the cost of Disney in general is too much at that point for what it is.

I would possibly just cut back to going every 4 or 5 years for a week and rent DVC Points from someone else at a discount. Might even just opt for Swan/Dolphin when the kids are older as well.

The exception is if WDW because much less busy and lightning lane was just included in the cost of the ticket and more in line with Universal. Otherwise tons of other options for vacations and I would likely use the money/time elsewhere.


----------



## Sandisw

sethschroeder said:


> Except was that listed in the Membership Extras? From my understanding it sounded like Valet Parking was actually covered by MFs. Wasn't around back then though so not sure I would be interested in the language pre-2009 though.



It was indeed a perk for DVC Owners and you showed your card when you took advantage of it.   There one day and gone the next because some change with the vendor and costs DVD was paying.


----------



## sethschroeder

Sandisw said:


> It was indeed a perk for DVC Owners and you showed your card when you took advantage of it.   There one day and gone the next because the vendor changed.



I would want to see the contract language though. As an example Top of the World Lounge is a DVC benefit but not in the disclosure so removing access to it does not result in any of the membership extra language being impacted.


----------



## Sandisw

sethschroeder said:


> I would want to see the contract language though. As an example Top of the World Lounge is a DVC benefit but not in the disclosure so removing access to it does not result in any of the membership extra language being impacted.



TOTWL was never a membership extra. It’s commercial space so it’s not something paid for by DVD. 

  Let’s not go done the road again in this thread.  Feel free to start a new one if you want to discuss whether or not any membership perk must exist for admission.

ETA.  FL law prohibits the cost of any incidental benefit to be passed on to owners which is why valet parking cost was part of the extras.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

AvidDisReader said:


> So APs go away permanently.  How many people who own DVC for at least 8 years are going to want to sell their points, and pay rack rates or rent DVC points at today's prices?  When I look at the current going rates it makes me ill.  I guess if the decision is that it is no longer a desire to go to WDW at all, I could see selling off DVC points.  Most of those that post on this forum are such big Disney fans, I just do not see it.



I had a great 20 year run. If it's over, it's over. I'll get over it. And make a good profit to spend doing something else.


----------



## WB1971

WilsonFlyer said:


> I had a great 20 year run. If it's over, it's over. I'll get over it. And make a good profit to spend doing something else.


Just sad here because we started with DVC in late 2017 after years of cash stays, and then moved to FL late 2019 to be able to visit whenever we wanted. That dream died real quick.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

WB1971 said:


> Just sad here because we started with DVC in late 2017 after years of cash stays, and then moved to FL late 2019 to be able to visit whenever we wanted. That dream died real quick.



And to think how close we were to doing just that only a year or so ago.

We were classic 'die hards.' We've had 25+ years of vacations at WDW, of which 15+ have been with DVC. Much of the last 15 years averaging 3-5 week-long trips per year, where an AP is a necessity. I've been through some of the best years WDW ever had to offer. I've seen some great change, but not in the last 5-7 years. Oh there's been change, but aside from a ride here and there; most of it has not been good. When I say that WDW is not what it used to be, it usually receives a response along the lines of, "Well, of course it's not." That's not what I mean. It's not what it used to be and for all the wrong reasons. They've screwed it up. About 10 years ago, it had hit about borderline perfect. FP+ was right. Prices were high, but what we had come to expect in a theme park. Crowds were there, but you could find a 'slacker' time if you really wanted to. People were more 'casual,' and I'm not just talking bout CMs. People went to enjoy their vacations and be more relaxed about it. Nowadays, it seems that people are hell-bent on getting every ounce they can out of every minute and every dollar because of the excessive dollars they have spent and are spending, others be damned in the process. This whole vacationer attitude "It's all about me." is getting a little long of tooth also, and it's especially bad on top of everything else.

It is what it is. But it ain't what it was. Eventually you have to know when it's time to fold. As I said above, we had a great run. It may not be over, but if it is, we had it mostly on somebody else's quarter when I cash out and all is said and done, and while I will be sad if and when that day comes; it sure didn't end up being a bad run while it lasted.


----------



## Sandisw

WB1971 said:


> Just sad here because we started with DVC in late 2017 after years of cash stays, and then moved to FL late 2019 to be able to visit whenever we wanted. That dream died real quick.



And, I think you still will be able to do that!  It may just require some different planning and adjustments.  As I said, I definitely think some level of AP will be back.

If it is not, we have decided to adjust...no more popping into a park just for dinner or shopping.  We may no longer do a park hopper option and choose a park for each trip.  

I have been an a few trips that included no parks, and I enjoyed them just as much as park ones so I think there will be a way for us to still enjoy things!


----------



## lowlight

Ms Bibbidi said:


> While I don't have a crystal ball (no one does), my educated guess tells me even if they do sunset annual passes in their current form they will do something else for bulk price gate admissions.  You might like it even more!  Who knows?  They will consider infrequent travelers, frequent locals, DVC owners, offsite avid Disney fans, the seniors or disabled who cannot tolerate a whole day in a park, special mobility needs, and many more groups.  It is a complicated thing driven some by profit of the guest types, but also by more than that.  Today's fans that buy DVC (often families) also raise tomorrow's fans.  No better way to pass on family values and traditions.  Not time to worry yet.  They will tweak and adjust.  It is an endless process.


I disagree, now is the time to worry and also the time to be vocal.  It’s also the time to gnash your teeth and tell them you intend to leave (for those of us who truly do) if they change it negatively.  Waiting to complain until the change has happened is strategically a poor choice.


----------



## BamaGuy44

RoseGold said:


> Just months ago, these boards were doing math with a decade worth of "discounts" on APs to justify buying direct and "break even."  It was the most important perk. Now, everyone is acting like nobody wanted an AP anyway, and you don't care if it's completely gone.
> 
> If there's no AP, I'm out.  I'm completely out on Disney.  And I'm not the only one thinking like this.  I'm planning multiple trips for the summer, because it might be our last at Disney.  If they want full price ticket payers only, fine.  Maybe I'll see you again in a few years at the Halloween party and I'll rent some points for a night at Poly tower.
> 
> Cool thing about buying resale is this is easy to reverse.



But for every person like you, there are plenty like me, who have been going once or twice a year for 20+ years and never had an AP. How many of each are there? I have no idea but Disney does and they'll make their calculations accordingly. It's no different than every other aspect of DVC. Super important to some, while others couldn't care less about it. I do hope they come back because it's ridiculous that Disney would be the only theme parks in the world not offering and annual pass for non residents. And I think they'll come back some time this year.


----------



## Miffy

Think about this: For every one of you who owns DVC there are probably a lot of other Disney fans like me, who never bought DVC, live out of state, stay onsite and live in the Disney bubble, and usually purchase an AP. I think I've had only a few months in the last 15+ years when I didn't have an AP.

For years I used bounceback to book my next trip--or 2 trips. Since WDW reopened, there's no bounceback. However, there are still AP discounts, and I've been using them. I never would have taken the last trip I took (1st week of March) without it.

Disney is clearly making money off me and my sister, who's my usual traveling companion.

If they eliminated APs altogether, our 2 or sometimes 3 trips a year wouldn't happen. We'd probably come once.

Does Disney want to lose guests like us? Maybe in the grand scheme, we don't account for big revenue for them, but we are the diehards who can always be depended on . . . assuming the experience doesn't become untenable or unaffordable.


----------



## Sandisw

Miffy said:


> Think about this: For every one of you who owns DVC there are probably a lot of other Disney fans like me, who never bought DVC, live out of state, stay onsite and live in the Disney bubble, and usually purchase an AP. I think I've had only a few months in the last 15+ years when I didn't have an AP.
> 
> For years I used bounceback to book my next trip--or 2 trips. Since WDW reopened, there's no bounceback. However, there are still AP discounts, and I've been using them. I never would have taken the last trip I took (1st week of March) without it.
> 
> Disney is clearly making money off me and my sister, who's my usual traveling companion.
> 
> If they eliminated APs altogether, our 2 or sometimes 3 trips a year wouldn't happen. We'd probably come once.
> 
> Does Disney want to lose guests like us? Maybe in the grand scheme, we don't account for big revenue for them, but we are the diehards who can always be depended on . . . assuming the experience doesn't become untenable or unaffordable.



I don’t think there are any specific guests they want to lose.

But, this is an example that there are lots of different groups who use and want APs

So, it’s a balancing act for DPEP in trying to figure it all out.

That’s why I have always said DVC owners are no more or less important than guests like you or FL residents who benefit from having them.


----------



## TiggerBouncy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> <Laughs>  Okay.  Properly refuted.  But, perhaps their "new" system shouldn't be one that angers their passholders so much.



Oh, I am in complete agreement that the change they made is not an ideal change (That's being PC about it).  Not the change I would have done, certainly.  In hindsight, maybe not even the change that Disney would have done.  I am just saying that the argument of "we have been doing it for 60 years, so we don't need to change it" is invalid. But yeah - what you change it TO matters. LOL.



RoseGold said:


> If there's no AP, I'm out.  I'm completely out on Disney.  And I'm not the only one thinking like this.



I do not think that you are the only one who thinks this way.  I think if APs do not come back, a lot of people will be out.  Not a MAJORITY - but as others have pointed out, a turnover of even 5% is significant. I am not sure I would be out on that alone.  I have other concerns right now with Disney - mostly with the corporate's political attitudes - but let's not get into that right now.  Just suffice it to say, IF I leave, it won't be over AP's alone. I think eventually they will come back - but I do not know if it will be in time to save some of those thinking of leaving.



Ms Bibbidi said:


> Not time to worry yet.  They will tweak and adjust.  It is an endless process.



This is my mantra.  You have to remember (and many on here chose not to) that Disney is an ever-fluid environment.  They tweak, fiddle and fuss.  As a corporation, they are almost never stagnant.  You may not always see the tweaks - many of them are in background algorithms - which is why I think it's funny how messed up people are over G+. You are seeing one stage in a many stage process and it will look different a year from now, 2 years from now and 5 years from now.  DVC is a long term prospect.  Making drastic decisions during a single stage is generally not making the best decision. That said if the TRAJECTORY is wrong for you, then it's wrong.  Time to sell and move on.

I have some trepidation myself as mentioned above, but also as mentioned, Disney CHANGES.... So I am content to give it a little more time and see what trajectory they follow.



WilsonFlyer said:


> People were more 'casual,' and I'm not just talking bout CMs. People went to enjoy their vacations and be more relaxed about it. Nowadays, it seems that people are hell-bent on getting every ounce they can out of every minute and every dollar because of the excessive dollars they have spent and are spending, others be damned in the process. This whole vacationer attitude "It's all about me." is getting a little long of tooth also, and it's especially bad on top of everything else.
> 
> It is what it is. But it ain't what it was. Eventually you have to know when it's time to fold. As I said above, we had a great run. It may not be over, but if it is, we had it mostly on somebody else's quarter when I cash out and all is said and done, and while I will be sad if and when that day comes; it sure didn't end up being a bad run while it lasted.



You know the entire board knows you and I do not always see eye to eye.  I have a hard time staring down a zebra in the best of circumstances. They kick... hard. But I COMPLETELY identify with you on the these 2 paragraphs.

It's not JUST Disney that has changed.  It's PEOPLE. I know you were talking more about the attitude of trying to get in front of everyone, but it's more than that.  It's just general..... attitude of being on vacation.

People were polite.  They were low key.  It doesn't seem that long ago... Maybe I have aged, I don't know. I mean I have, but I guess maybe I am more ornery. Years ago, I would let someone in front of me.  If I held open a door, they would usually walk in and then let me in front of them in line since I was there first.  Or maybe I would politely decline and tell them to go first.  I used to TALK to people.  STRANGERS.  IN LINE.  HEAVEN FORBID. When waiting for a parade, we would chat to while away the hour or so that we were sitting.  I have great pictures of my 5 yr old son cuddled up with a really cute snow white asleep on the bench waiting for fireworks. I could have a great day at Disney - ironically - while doing very little but sitting around and talking with other vacationers while we waiting for things. 

This last trip, DW and I were waiting for Smugglers Run.  Since it takes 6 people to properly fly the ship, we tried making friends with the people in front of us - also just 2. No go.  They wanted nothing to do with talking to anyone else.  We tried the group behind us - a group of 3.  No go - WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO US? WE DON'T KNOW YOU. These days, if I had a 5 yr old son and he fell asleep next to a little girl on a bench, I am pretty sure there would be screams associated with it and maybe security stepping in.

It's not just Disney, it's PEOPLE. People have changed. People on vacation have changed.  Or maybe I have. I don't know.

As you say, it's been a good run.  I don't know if it's over for me. I have not folded my hand yet.  But for the first time, I am wondering if I am okay with the trajectory Disney is taking as a company.  That's got nothing to do with people.  But I will admit that the most recent vacations have not been the vacations of times past.  I can't say it's all Disney's fault. Certainly some of it is. Selling DVC though... right now, that's an emotional decision.  I need to wait till it's not an emotional one because emotions change. But if it's the right decision for you, I understand where you are coming from.


----------



## redboat45

Disney needs to remember who kept them afloat after 9/11 and 2008.  It was the passholders.  We are heading into another MAJOR recession and day guests etc. won't be visiting much after this initial "we are out of quarantine" visits happen.  If there are no AP's, there will be no one to keep them afloat.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

redboat45 said:


> Disney needs to remember who kept them afloat after 9/11 and 2008.  It was the passholders.  We are heading into another MAJOR recession and day guests etc. won't be visiting much after this initial "we are out of quarantine" visits happen.  If there are no AP's, there will be no one to keep them afloat.



Janet Jackson said it best. THAT is today's disney.


----------



## CraigInPA

Ms Bibbidi said:


> While I don't have a crystal ball (no one does), my educated guess tells me even if they do sunset annual passes in their current form they will do something else for bulk price gate admissions.  You might like it even more!  Who knows?  They will consider infrequent travelers, frequent locals, DVC owners, offsite avid Disney fans, the seniors or disabled who cannot tolerate a whole day in a park, special mobility needs, and many more groups.  It is a complicated thing driven some by profit of the guest types, but also by more than that.  Today's fans that buy DVC (often families) also raise tomorrow's fans.  No better way to pass on family values and traditions.  Not time to worry yet.  They will tweak and adjust.  It is an endless process.



To the point where they can look at your past purchase history (provided by magic band use, and the use of discounts) to determine whether you are an "A" guest who goes to the front of the line because you spend a lot of money on Genie+, souvenirs, and food, or a "Z" guest who is allowed in only on low volume days because you have an AP and don't spend a dime in the parks.


----------



## bwvBound

TiggerBouncy said:


> This last trip, DW and I were waiting for Smugglers Run.  Since it takes 6 people to properly fly the ship, we tried making friends with the people in front of us - also just 2. No go.  They wanted nothing to do with talking to anyone else.  We tried the group behind us - a group of 3.  No go - WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO US? WE DON'T KNOW YOU.


That is so sad!  I talk with everyone around us at DL/DCA.  Yes, we've made "new friends" in line for Smuggler's Run talking strategy and building a team.  Isn't that why we go to the parks?  To smile at strangers, to chat in long lines, to share in our common love of all-things-Disney-parks??  Really ... isn't that why we are there??

Edited to add:  In a recent visit to DL, hubby and I split up when picking up our mobile order lunch.  He went to secure a table, I stood in line for pickup.  The fellow ahead of me started a conversation with me ... and my husband just watched and marveled.  When I reached the table with our lunch, hubby asked, "So did you learn his wife's name?"  No, but I did learn where she was born, how many were in their family, where his parents currently live, and a whole lot more.  It was a lovely, spontaneous conversation!   Again -- to _enjoy_ everyone around us -- isn't that why we are there??

Edited again to add to my last line above: And, by extension, isn't that why we are all here on this board ... ??


----------



## RoseGold

BamaGuy44 said:


> But for every person like you, there are plenty like me, who have been going once or twice a year for 20+ years and never had an AP. How many of each are there? I have no idea but Disney does and they'll make their calculations accordingly. It's no different than every other aspect of DVC. Super important to some, while others couldn't care less about it.



It's so weird to me that everyone was all over that OMG AP discount, and now I'm the only cheapskate who seems to care if they get rid of APs completely.  I'd guess there are plenty of DVC members who use APs to go on multiple trips a year.  Maybe they're die hards who will pay full price?   That's what Chapek wants!


----------



## CarolMN

RoseGold said:


> It's so weird to me that everyone was all over that OMG AP discount, and now I'm the only cheapskate who seems to care if they get rid of APs completely.  I'd guess there are plenty of DVC members who use APs to go on multiple trips a year.  Maybe they're die hards who will pay full price?   That's what Chapek wants!


You're definitely not the only "cheapskate".  I think it's just that many of us believe some form of APs will eventually come back.  I'm counting on that!


----------



## DduzDis

CarolMN said:


> You're definitely not the only "cheapskate".  I think it's just that many of us believe some form of APs will eventually come back.  I'm counting on that!



This is where I am.  I was also able to renew ours so we still have them.  But, if they were to go away altogether it could be the end for us unless we rented and used the $$ somewhere else.  However,  I do believe they will be continued in some fashion (but it may not be pretty).


----------



## TiggerBouncy

bwvBound said:


> That is so sad!  I talk with everyone around us at DL/DCA.  Yes, we've made "new friends" in line for Smuggler's Run talking strategy and building a team.  Isn't that why we go to the parks?  To smile at strangers, to chat in long lines, to share in our common love of all-things-Disney-parks??  Really ... isn't that why we are there??
> 
> Edited to add:  In a recent visit to DL, hubby and I split up when picking up our mobile order lunch.  He went to secure a table, I stood in line for pickup.  The fellow ahead of me started a conversation with me ... and my husband just watched and marveled.  When I reached the table with our lunch, hubby asked, "So did you learn his wife's name?"  No, but I did learn where she was born, how many were in their family, where his parents currently live, and a whole lot more.  It was a lovely, spontaneous conversation!   Again -- to _enjoy_ everyone around us -- isn't that why we are there??
> 
> Edited again to add to my last line above: And, by extension, isn't that why we are all here on this board ... ??



See, and that's how I am.  It's NOT EVERYONE.  In Oct '20, we had lunch at Woody's.  There were no tables.  DW grabbed one.  I noticed a person with a cane who was trying to find a place to sit and we invited him and his DW to join us. We all shared a table and a nice conversation. IT HAPPENS. 

Matter of fact, our last trip there we met a 3 generation family in the airport here at Dallas going to WDW.  We talked most of the way down to Orlando. We ran into the same family on the same flight on the way back.  Had a terrific time talking to the kids about what they did. 

But it more and more happens now that people will just as soon push past you, shove past you, step over you, and in all other ways ignore you or view you as an obstacle. Same Feb trip, I was stuck in an ECV - first time in my life.  I was shocked at the number of kids and young adults who LITERALLY vaulted over the front of the ECV while it was in motion to cut in front. 

Like I said, it could be me... but it seems more common now (or maybe it's just my addled memory).  It seems like even as much as 5 or 10 years ago, people were much different when on vacation. More likely to help each other, talk to each other, be friendly. 

Am I wrong?


----------



## philbrody

Feels like I should be doing this in Vegas but.......  Family of 4 right now with Platinum passes expiring mid May.  Looks like we can renew but only at the incredi-pass level.  We are year on/year off with AP's historically (Late summer for 8 days, F&W for 5 days, MLK 4 days, then early summer 8 days).  The passes got off schedule due to the pandemic but next trip in Jan of 2023 and we'll move to Jan-Jan year on-off cycles.   We only really need a sorcerer pass.  Opinions on:
1.  Bite the bullet and renew now even though not needed for 6 months because when passes come back prices are going up
2.  Hold off and wait for vouchers at the sorcerer pass level that can start in Jan and risk no pass
3. Attempt to call an see if a renewal can happen at a sorcerer pass level


----------



## wnielsen1

philbrody said:


> Feels like I should be doing this in Vegas but.......  Family of 4 right now with Platinum passes expiring mid May.  Looks like we can renew but only at the incredi-pass level.  We are year on/year off with AP's historically (Late summer for 8 days, F&W for 5 days, MLK 4 days, then early summer 8 days).  The passes got off schedule due to the pandemic but next trip in Jan of 2023 and we'll move to Jan-Jan year on-off cycles.   We only really need a sorcerer pass.  Opinions on:
> 1.  Bite the bullet and renew now even though not needed for 6 months because when passes come back prices are going up
> 2.  Hold off and wait for vouchers at the sorcerer pass level that can start in Jan and risk no pass
> 3. Attempt to call an see if a renewal can happen at a sorcerer pass level


You should be able to downgrade to a sorcerer pass if you are eligible (blue card).  You have to call MS.


----------



## CarolynFH

philbrody said:


> 3. Attempt to call an see if a renewal can happen at a sorcerer pass level





wnielsen1 said:


> You should be able to downgrade to a sorcerer pass if you are eligible (blue card).  You have to call MS.


I agree - you can call MS and renew at the Sorcerer level, if you're eligible for Membership Extras.  There's no requirement to renew at the level you currently have.


----------



## BamaGuy44

RoseGold said:


> It's so weird to me that everyone was all over that OMG AP discount, and now I'm the only cheapskate who seems to care if they get rid of APs completely.  I'd guess there are plenty of DVC members who use APs to go on multiple trips a year.  Maybe they're die hards who will pay full price?   That's what Chapek wants!



The same amount of people care as before, same number of cheapskates.  It's just that when Disney dropped this bomb about suspending AP sales, naturally the people who want/need the ability to buy APs were the ones upset and posting about it more, so it skewed the discussion that way. And I don't think there are too many of us who believe they won't be coming back. I certainly think they will, but they've surprised me before.


----------



## tiana1989

Phew! Finally caught up with this long and interesting thread. But I’m in the camp that they’ll be back. Especially in WDW, where APs don’t overload the parks in the same way they do at DLR. I know there’s been a lot of talk about the “local FL resident”, but the central FL population just doesn’t look the same as southern CA (probably why they even have zip code specific passes in CA). I live in the panhandle, and there are plenty of AP magnets on people’s bumpers up here! But we’re a 4 hour drive away from Disney where I’m at, and it’s even further for other panhandle cities like Pensacola and Panama City. Miami and other major hubs in South FL are also 4 hours away. So while there are a ton of local APs who can drop by for dinner after work, a lot of us operate more like tourists because heading to WDW means booking a hotel and staying for a while. We started off spontaneously deciding to do a weeklong Christmas trip somewhat last minute in 2019. That turned into “this was amazing, we have to do Christmas here every year”, and then very quickly became smaller trips every month or two, in addition to our bigger Christmas trip. Good luck to Disney analyzing our data because our trips range from staying deluxe and booking a bunch of ADRs to weekend quick trips off site where we maybe buy a dole whip and some spring rolls lol. We somehow never make it out without merch, though. We started talking DVC last year, but then we got engaged and have to save up for our wedding first (which, of course, we’re also doing at Disney, so there they go getting another giant bucket of money from us), so our DVC purchase is going to be delayed a little longer.

Anyway, my long point is that just looking at others’ comments and my experience,  I think it would be difficult for Disney to completely do away with APs because broad generalizations of any group, whether it’s DVC members, FL residents, non-residents, whatever is going to cut a chunk of people out, and there will be people within that group who give Disney lots of money. And as much as I love Disney, if they get rid of APs, it would change my Disney-bounding significantly and that planned DVC purchase would be off the table.


----------



## jimim

ILoveMyDVC said:


> I could get deleted for this comment but I agree with Sandisw - it's a whole can of worms on the DVC boards.   Too many people buying too few points that barely allow then to stay once every other year IF THERE IS AVAILABILITY for too few studios.
> 
> For people like me with 1000+ points, losing the APs would be devastating.


I only have 300 PTs and it is wrecking me. You know the points scale with 300 PTs I can get 21 days in a studio easy. I need those passes too. Buying 3 weeks of tickets would suck. Lol


----------



## ILoveMyDVC

jimim said:


> I only have 300 PTs and it is wrecking me. You know the points scale with 300 PTs I can get 21 days in a studio easy. I need those passes too. Buying 3 weeks of tickets would suck. Lol


300 points is a real number.  I had 350 for 28 years.   I'm talking about the under 100 folks that bank and borrow and go once every 2-3 years.  You definitely need those APs.


----------



## mistysue

jimim said:


> I only have 300 PTs and it is wrecking me. You know the points scale with 300 PTs I can get 21 days in a studio easy. I need those passes too. Buying 3 weeks of tickets would suck. Lol


We're similar, separate tickets for 2 trips last year HURT. We canceled our third trip and rented the points out. I didn't want to repeat this year so we booked a family member a room and have one trip rather than the 2-3 we want.
We're already seriously discussing next year using DVC as only a hotel to go to other parks, as we're feeling ripped off by the time we get to an 8 or 9 day park hopper. And we are guests who do two to three table service meals per day while we're onsite/in parks plus buy merch every time we step into a park.

And Disney didn't get an even exchange when we booked for family, they were going either way. They simply lost the second or third time we would also be there.


----------



## CraigInPA

The uncertainty of whether AP's will return is currently preventing me from booking my 2023 trip. Both my wife and I don't want to go unless AP's are offered, since we have a 2024 trip planned with family members and wanted to get both trips in with one AP purchase each.


----------



## Pooh12863

mistysue said:


> We're similar, separate tickets for 2 trips last year HURT. We canceled our third trip and rented the points out. I didn't want to repeat this year so we booked a family member a room and have one trip rather than the 2-3 we want.
> We're already seriously discussing next year using DVC as only a hotel to go to other parks, as we're feeling ripped off by the time we get to an 8 or 9 day park hopper. And we are guests who do two to three table service meals per day while we're onsite/in parks plus buy merch every time we step into a park.
> 
> And Disney didn't get an even exchange when we booked for family, they were going either way. They simply lost the second or third time we would also be there.


My wife and I have kept our AP's current through renewal so the current system really hasn't affected us yet. Just for grins I figured the cost of the vacations I have booked at regular ticket prices for each trip and for my wife and I the next 9 months would cost us $8000 plus tax. Yea Disney, that ain't gonna happen. I can get us Universal/Busch Gardens/Sea World AP's for half of that. I won't be selling my DVC as I enjoys our trips to Florida too much but without AP's I have no need for Disney theme parks. That said I'm sure AP's will return at some point.


----------



## mistysue

Pooh12863 said:


> My wife and I have kept our AP's current through renewal so the current system really hasn't affected us yet. Just for grins I figured the cost of the vacations I have booked at regular ticket prices for each trip and for my wife and I the next 9 months would cost us $8000 plus tax. Yea Disney, that ain't gonna happen. I can get us Universal/Busch Gardens/Sea World AP's for half of that. I won't be selling my DVC as I enjoys our trips to Florida too much but without AP's I have no need for Disney theme parks. That said I'm sure AP's will return at some point.


We had a short planned lapse for late 2019/early 2020. *Worst. Timing. Ever.*  We then planned three trips- Feb 2021, May 2021, Oct 2021.  In the summer I still didn't know if APs would become a thing,  we cancelled trip #3 and rented out the rooms,  then found out we could have finally gotten APs, but didn't have another trip plan until this May...   it's been a giant mess for us,  and of course I didn't buy vouchers right away thinking it wouldn't be a huge issue,  so here we are. The last bit, totally my fault,  but I shouldn't have to invest in ticket vouchers to take a family vacation... any other vacation place floating that idea would get laughed out of business, but with Disney it's like "oh, your fault for not throwing down $4K just in case"


----------



## EilonwyWanderer

APs not being around is really difficult. We're one of those low point families that banks and then tries to go every other year. We just went in March to burn some points we would've otherwise lost and tickets cost 3k. We were planning on going again in December and that will cost us another 3k in tickets alone. Honestly? I'm not sure we can swing it and we might end up renting the points instead


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## New Mouse

Well at this point and for a while now the park pass system and capacity caps are in place because of Disney and have nothing to do with the government.

I'd have to imagine blocking an annual passholder from any park aside from a true blackout date is legally considered fraud at this point.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think we probably saw the effect of the California passholder lawsuit at work today.  The blogs are reporting that overnight the passholder bucket of park reservations was severely reduced.  It was.  Then, just hours later almost all of it was put back and passholders were green lighted again.  I suspect some enterprising mid level Vice President of something or other thought he or she would balance out the available reservations and move a bunch of availability from the AP bucket to tickets and resort buckets.  What a great idea and to maximize profits too!  Wrong!  Legal said we could not do that because we have already sold those spots to passholders who might still want to make reservations.  So, a few hours later the passholder buckets were refilled again.  That is further proof that somebody very high up has been told they cannot prioritize ticket sales and ticketed resort guests over passholders.  Doing that effectively adds blockout dates to passholders of all tiers.



Or it was simply another example of Disney IT glitches at work.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


----------



## RoseGold

New Mouse said:


> I'd have to imagine blocking an annual passholder from any park aside from a true blackout date is legally considered fraud at this point.



I mean not unless they hit capacity, which did happen on some of the Spring Break dates, I thought.  This just means the cheapskate APs aren't cut off before the other guests, which I'm sure isn't what the mouse intended.


----------



## jimim

ILoveMyDVC said:


> 300 points is a real number.  I had 350 for 28 years.   I'm talking about the under 100 folks that bank and borrow and go once every 2-3 years.  You definitely need those APs.


I know! I'm going nuts in this holding pattern.  1 day I can care less next day I'm ticked off then someone at work mentions Disney to me and I'm sad.  all my friends are still going. . . well one still has passes so he is good the other has no problem paying for ticket after ticket after ticket.  it sucks.


----------



## Pinnochio

mistysue said:


> We're already seriously discussing next year using DVC as only a hotel to go to other parks, as we're feeling ripped off by the time we get to an 8 or 9 day park hopper. And we are guests who do two to three table service meals per day while we're onsite/in parks plus buy merch every time we step into a park.
> They simply lost the second or third time we would also be there.


This exactly....our three trips per year will now become one (it would be zero but for the grandkids who come once per year on winter break)....


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## bakerworld

A new wrinkle for us is we're upgrading our villa selection to 1Br without purchasing more points. This means we'll be enjoying WDW less. 2021 proved to us that we can enjoy the parks with MYW tickets for about the same cost of the 2019 AP. The Park Reservation system reduces the convenience of the AP, actually - IMO - the Park Reservation system is a reduction of all conveniences. If I have to reserve the park we're visiting and cannot hop until 2p, considering we barely leave the room before 10a, then I might as well purchase 4D MYW tickets and use it over our 6D stay. Not having the AP actually increases our use, and enjoyment, of Disney Springs without causing me to feel I'm wasting $$$ - ditto PH tickets. 

While we miss the AP, it's not like we can enjoy the parks on a whim. We can't enter a park 20 minutes before closing, as we previously did, unless we can obtain a Park Reservation.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

bakerworld said:


> We can't enter a park 20 minutes before closing, as we previously did, unless we can obtain a Park Reservation.


At least the way they are currently doing AP buckets, unless you are going at Christmas or Thanksgiving, you absolutely still can get a last minute Park reservation for the AP bucket, including late during the day of.  I think this is the fear of the lawsuit at work, but AP’s in Disneyworld definitely have priority over day guests right now.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well, there are some research numbers out now from the US Travel org.  Hang onto your socks!  They say polls show eighty-five percent of Americans polled plan to travel this summer. About half expect to take two weeks off.  I did not understand their fly or drive numbers.  Other sources say Disney is the number one destination.  Still other articles say international arrivals doubled.  So, I am guessing this travel surge is not going anywhere soon.  Disney World resorts are now all open.  Looks like Disney had this intel. The effects of a recession or another pandemic wave are not discussed yet.  But with current forecasts and the California litigation moving at a snail’s pace, I am not hopeful that new annual pass sales will come online anytime soon.  I went back and double checked the exact language from Disney when they paused sales.  They said they “expected” sales of APs sometime in 2022.  No certainty or promises there.  They would monitor.  Once summer is over, there is usually a lull starting in mid-September.  But as we saw, the January/February lull never happened in 2022.  After the early fall slower season it heats up again for the end of year holidays.  Unlikely Disney would make it easier for bunches of lower profit, space-available guests then.  Forecasting is always uncertain.  But, I could realistically see the “pause” in new annual pass sales extend into 2023.  I could be wrong.


Yeah, I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that they aren’t bringing AP’s back until they announce a settlement of the class action (and I’d say it’s a near lock it’ll be settled).  They don’t need to sell the top tier AP’s right now to fill their parks.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

bakerworld said:


> A new wrinkle for us is we're upgrading our villa selection to 1Br without purchasing more points. This means we'll be enjoying WDW less. 2021 proved to us that we can enjoy the parks with MYW tickets for about the same cost of the 2019 AP. The Park Reservation system reduces the convenience of the AP, actually - IMO - the Park Reservation system is a reduction of all conveniences. If I have to reserve the park we're visiting and cannot hop until 2p, considering we barely leave the room before 10a, then I might as well purchase 4D MYW tickets and use it over our 6D stay. Not having the AP actually increases our use, and enjoyment, of Disney Springs without causing me to feel I'm wasting $$$ - ditto PH tickets.
> 
> While we miss the AP, it's not like we can enjoy the parks on a whim. We can't enter a park 20 minutes before closing, as we previously did, unless we can obtain a Park Reservation.


We had no issues making last minute switches at Christmas (we were there for 20 days Dec 2021) or last month over March break (10 days). The AP buckets are very easy to work with. Is it a hassle having to remember to log in and modify my park pass? Yes. Have I run into any availability issues? No.


----------



## bakerworld

Happy to read about successful last minute park reservations. While on the airport transfer on the day of arrival will be a good time to see what I can reserve. Our AP's expire in September so our next visit will be a good time to test the last minute entry and whether we'll renew (although I think we'll renew because DH just likes having AP's - LOL).


----------



## Madame

Just coming back in to round off this thread.  We arrived at a bit after 2am this morning so sleeping in was a necessity.  I set an alarm and booked BTM for 1:05 after almost an hr of trying to push back the time.  Back to sleep til 10.

Hit MK.  Around 11:20.  CP reservation at 11:45.  Nothing else we wanted before 5-6pm - HM, PP specifically.  Did Buzz standby then BTR.  I was frustrated trying to get something else bc we have B&C supper at 5:25 (right now in fact lol).  I was locked into the no PH mindset.  Then it clicked that I don’t have to stick with MK.

Picked up MMRR for 8:20.  Soarin for 2:44 and RnR for 8.  ST for 7:05.  None of that is possible without PHs and is how we normally tour when staying at BCV.  I feel we are getting our money’s worth regarding G+.  

The expense of the hopper with no AP will not, however, be sustainable.  It’s good, mentally for me personally, to validate my thinking with real world evidence.  I hope they bring back APs soon


----------



## disfanforlife

What about renewing APs? Can we renew earlier than 60 days before expiration in order to make park reservations? Our APs expire early November right before our next trip.


----------



## Marionnette

disfanforlife said:


> What about renewing APs? Can we renew earlier than 60 days before expiration in order to make park reservations? Our APs expire early November right before our next trip.


No. They're pretty rigid about not renewing more than 60 days ahead. It's another flaw with the park reservation system that impacts AP holders negatively.


----------



## CarolMN

disfanforlife said:


> What about renewing APs? Can we renew earlier than 60 days before expiration in order to make park reservations? Our APs expire early November right before our next trip.





Marionnette said:


> No. They're pretty rigid about not renewing more than 60 days ahead. It's another flaw with the park reservation system that impacts AP holders negatively.


The "good news" about this is I do not recall reading an reports of park reservations disappearing before then  (except possibly for the MK last October 1).


----------



## disfanforlife

Marionnette said:


> No. They're pretty rigid about not renewing more than 60 days ahead. It's another flaw with the park reservation system that impacts AP holders negatively.


Ok. Thanks, I was just wondering. I had another thought. If we were to buy tickets through Disney just to be able to make the park reservations before the 60 day renewal time, would we then be able to upgrade those tickets to renew our APs?


----------



## disfanforlife

CarolMN said:


> The "good news" about this is I do not recall reading an reports of park reservations disappearing before then  (except possibly for the MK last October 1).


That is good news. I do have some older MYW tickets linked to my account I can use to be able to make park reservations but not enough days for our whole trip,


----------



## tjkraz

Ms Bibbidi said:


> That is currently an artificial situation.  They are showing green lights for passholders in accordance with normal block-out dates as per the pass type purchased -- unless - and only unless - they have reached that park's capacity (not a Disney chosen bucket capacity).  In fact, the current calendars show ticketed guests and resort guests have less availability than passholders (which is exactly opposite the guest type prioritization last October through November 23, 2021.)  They are doing this because of the lawsuit; in order not to increase the number of people as plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit.


I'd say it's very questionable whether the DL lawsuit has any bearing on current WDW Park Pass inventory. 

Our family visited WDW multiple times in 2020 and 2021. Some of us had APs and others were forced to buy MYW tickets. I can say with 100% certainty that WDW pass holders having more availability than MYW is a situation that existed before any lawsuits were filed. Attached are availability screen shots for May 2021 taken in early April. Disneyland didn't even reopen until April 30. 

I didn't follow the DL situation closely enough to even comment. But the idea that WDW Park Pass has been altered in recent months in response to the lawsuit does not ring true to me. 

Frankly I was surprised by this, figuring Disney wouldn't deliberately block people from buying tickets while pass holders were unwilling to fill the capacity. One of my theories was that they may have believed Passholders acted differently than hotel / day guests, perhaps arriving later in the day (after 5pm) in greater numbers or having shorter visits. Regardless, this has been going on for more than a year.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## tjkraz

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The May 2021 calandars are interesting, but they might have been screen shot right after a "refill" of passholder slots.  IDK.


This was not immediately after some "refill." I was at WDW during the first week of May, and actively following park availability for several weeks due to our ticketing situation. These were screen shots taken on April 11 which were forwarded to a friend. Results were similar weeks before this snapshot and after.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The comparison I noted was what was showing in October 2021 for October, November and December 2021 and compared to availability calendars after November 24, 2021.  There was a rather dramatic difference then.  IIRC there was some tweaking that went on in the late spring of 2021 when annual passholders found themselves unable to obtain a length of stay access due to the limited reservations they could make with their annual pass allocation alone.  In recent January through March months there have been multiple times when annual passholders have had availability comparable to their block-out calendars except when park capacity currently set by Disney was reached.  The May 2021 calandars are interesting, but they might have been screen shot right after a "refill" of passholder slots.  IDK.  Observing from October 2021, only in the last couple of weeks have I seen ticket holder availability shown up when passholders were blocked and that might be due to the Guardians of the Galaxy previews reserved for passholders.  IDK.  But thanks for the information.  Every bit helps.


This was my experience as well - there were days I could not book certain parks as a pass holder but the availability calendar showed it was availability for non-AP guests.


----------



## suebeelin

Marionnette said:


> No. They're pretty rigid about not renewing more than 60 days ahead. It's another flaw with the park reservation system that impacts AP holders negatively.


So we got stupid lucky in September and bought AP’s bc we were there 14 days. We are going again 14 days in June. 

Our AP’s expire in September. We were going to buy every other year but now wonder if it’s worth renewing…. Just in case. Any advice?


----------



## CarolMN

Wait to decide until at least 60 days before your APs expire.  AP sales might start again before that, so you could have an easier decision.  That's my plan.  Ours expire in October.  Good luck to all of us caught in the suspension.


----------



## karen4546

suebeelin said:


> So we got stupid lucky in September and bought AP’s bc we were there 14 days. We are going again 14 days in June.
> 
> Our AP’s expire in September. We were going to buy every other year but now wonder if it’s worth renewing…. Just in case. Any advice?


imo, renew.  If you don’t renew and decide on going back then you may be out of luck on buying a new pass.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## DVCsloth

Our passes expire 5/13/2022 Already renewed them but, when Guardians passholder preview came out I ended up needing to make park reservations. I had to check the box for my new pass to get the reservation, "makes sense". So, I made my park reservations and now my annual pass says expires 4/3/2023. This is probably written somewhere in the passholder purchase agreement, not a big deal and I hope it isn't Disney nickel and diming. I will put in a call to member services and ask why my annual pass is now less than an 11-month pass.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

DVCsloth said:


> Our passes expire 5/13/2022 Already renewed them but, when Guardians passholder preview came out I ended up needing to make park reservations. I had to check the box for my new pass to get the reservation, "makes sense". So, I made my park reservations and now my annual pass says expires 4/3/2023. This is probably written somewhere in the passholder purchase agreement, not a big deal and I hope it isn't Disney nickel and diming. I will put in a call to member services and ask why my annual pass is now less than an 11-month pass.


This sounds like a bug.  AP’s are for one calendar year.  If you renew it should just push it out to the next calendar year, same expiration date.


----------



## Sandisw

DVCsloth said:


> Our passes expire 5/13/2022 Already renewed them but, when Guardians passholder preview came out I ended up needing to make park reservations. I had to check the box for my new pass to get the reservation, "makes sense". So, I made my park reservations and now my annual pass says expires 4/3/2023. This is probably written somewhere in the passholder purchase agreement, not a big deal and I hope it isn't Disney nickel and diming. I will put in a call to member services and ask why my annual pass is now less than an 11-month pass.



Unless you renew in person, the voucher you get over the phone will show a renewal date of one year from when you purchase it. Vouchers can now be held only one year and then simply become a credit. 

So, if you bought it on 4/3/2022, that is why you see what you see,  when you go and activate it, it will give you a real pass with the 5/13/2923 date.


----------



## mistysue

suebeelin said:


> So we got stupid lucky in September and bought AP’s bc we were there 14 days. We are going again 14 days in June.
> 
> Our AP’s expire in September. We were going to buy every other year but now wonder if it’s worth renewing…. Just in case. Any advice?


Only let it lapse if it's not going to be a massive problem if you don't have it.
We allowed a short lapse which has cost my family thousands of dollars and we had to cancel a trip to stop it from being a few thousand more. 
If the trips you were planning to use the following annual pass for, you would be willing to pay for regular magic your way tickets instead, then go ahead and let it lapse but know that you might get locked out.


----------



## Maximus68

Madame said:


> Is anyone else (who uses their DVC for park visits) seriously struggling to find a way forward without an AP..?
> 
> We’ve reduced length of ticket (incorporating 50% non park days), reduced to base instead of hoppers…. The cost is just prohibitive.  I’m not even thinking of the discounted pass (which is useless to us as Xmas travellers)… just any AP!
> 
> I don’t understand how they market DVC anymore, but given the proclivity of most new - & many veteran - owners to choose studios (assuming to save points) and prefer multiple visits to larger accommodations….  Just why are they not allowing AP sales to DVC members?


I agree.  ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.  I have 900 points. WHERE AM I GOING ON VACATION??/


----------



## Maximus68

Sandisw said:


> The AP sales are determined by DPEP and when they make the decisions they make they take into account all guests.  DVC, unfortunately are no more or less important to that division than the regular cash guests who also go multiple times a year, or FL/CA residents that go multiple times a year.
> 
> Now, what would be great is for them to have allowed DVC owners a chance to buy the pixie dust pass, like FL residents still can, during the suspension as I would snap up one of those without question and adjust my trips so I don't visit on weekends (which I don't normally anyway).
> 
> But, I think we just have to wait but the renewing gives me hope they will be back.  I also think the lawsuit may be playing a larger role in this now since they did not return after the holiday crowds.


They have some nerve not seeing DVC owners as somewhat equals to Florida residents. Where are we going on vacation?  Haaa. I probably paid more for my 900 points and 1/2 the Florida residents paid for their homes.


----------



## Maximus68

Madame said:


> Yes but selling DVC, a product that encourages longer or more shorter trips and denying AP sales to those clients seems sketchy to me.  I understand modern corporations have a silo mentality - I just don’t like it.


They should not be denying AP sales to DVC members.


----------



## Maximus68

lowlight said:


> The issue with this is, I don't want to concede one more got dang thing to Disney.  I've conceded dozens of things in the past few years in the name of "pandemic" or "short staffing" or "shortages" or "high demand" or "inflation" or just plain "Disney wanting a higher spending park visitor", the list goes on.  I don't want to offer Disney a way to realize more profit on something that is already very profitable.  Sure, they can make it for on-site stays only, or make it limited to a certain number of days a year, or a bunch of things, but the AP is the last "value" item left in the ENTIRE universe of Disney, and even then, it had 40% of it's value chewed out when it changed from Gold to Sorcerer.  I have no way of stopping Disney from doing anything, and even if a hundred people agreed and left with me it wouldn't even be a blip on the balance sheet, but I won't pay more for it, or accept it when it's rebirthed as a more limited product at a higher cost.  Disney has poked and prodded me for the past few years with price increases and I smile through clenched teeth each time, but this would be the proverbial straw, and I say that as a blue card member.  Raise the price on Mickey Bars to $9 for all I care, but when you start artificially gating how many times I can come to a park that's, I guess coincidentally, on the same property as the property you leased to me as a "second home", it's over.  "Welcome home, but not for that long of a stay!" It's almost like that movie where the guy has to maintain a certain adrenaline level or his heart stops, except it's Chapek and if he doesn't maintain a certain profit level, he self combusts.


It’s sickening.


----------



## Maximus68

Pinnochio said:


> BCV & BWV are our home resorts and we love the eating & shopping in Epcot & DHS too....we took a 12 night trip in Feb, normally have an AP, but this time bought a 4 day pass (could not justify an 11 day ticket that now cost more than an AP)....that said, i calculated Disney lost: $200 at Le Cellier, $150 at Tutto, $150 Mexico, $150 Norway, $200 Brown Derby and $150 Mama Melrose....Will they feel that?....I dunno....but we did find some very good offsite restaurants in the process....just my 2cents


Nice going!!


----------



## MamaBelle4

Sandisw said:


> Of course, it would be great and last year, they did include DVC in the same ticket deal they offered cash guests.


Can you be more specific on what that was? I missed it last year. We need to buy tickets for our December trip but can wait if there's a chance for a discount for DVC members (we need to buy 5 adult and 3 kids tickets, so any savings adds up fast for us!)


----------



## nuhusky123

Disney’s stock dropped by 7 points in after hour trading on Netflix news they Lost 200,000 vs gaining the expected 2.5M

fingers crossed Disney+ is in the same boat. The worse Disney+ performs the more Disney will need to rely on traditional business lines and ap may look more appealing to the bottom line

cross those fingers


----------



## Sandisw

Maximus68 said:


> They have some nerve not seeing DVC owners as somewhat equals to Florida residents. Where are we going on vacation?  Haaa. I probably paid more for my 900 points and 1/2 the Florida residents paid for their homes.



it would certainly be nice if DPEP saw DVC owners in the same light.. and offered us the ability to purchase the pixie pass during the suspension of the others.  

While it would not work for all, it would have helped many.

I do believe that if there was something that DVD could do in terms of getting that division to include us in those or any other option, it would be in place.


----------



## Sandisw

MamaBelle4 said:


> Can you be more specific on what that was? I missed it last year. We need to buy tickets for our December trip but can wait if there's a chance for a discount for DVC members (we need to buy 5 adult and 3 kids tickets, so any savings adds up fast for us!)



Last year, they had a buy 4 get 2 day free ticket offer for cash guests and they allowed DVC owners the ability to purchase the same thing when staying on points. 

So far, no ticket offers this year..


----------



## DVCsloth

Maximus68 said:


> They have some nerve not seeing DVC owners as somewhat equals to Florida residents. Where are we going on vacation?  Haaa. I probably paid more for my 900 points and 1/2 the Florida residents paid for their homes.


I remember reading somewhere that Disney had to offer Florida residents some specific pas or access when they were first incorporating Reedy Creek. It may have something to do with it.


----------



## aka Charles

Sandisw said:


> it would certainly be nice if DPEP saw DVC owners in the same light.. and offered us the ability to purchase the pixie pass during the suspension of the others.


It amazes me that as DVC Members, we are not offered access to all the Florida resident perks, discounts, etc.

When I log into the DVC member website, the first thing I see, BIG and BOLD, is "Welcome Back Home".
Everything from the cast members, to the signs, to the magicband readers at the parks, says "Welcome Home".
So according to Disney, we have a "Home" at WDW.

On the same Disney website it states that to become a member we "Purchase a real estate interest directly from Disney Vacation Club".
This is Disney confirming that we legally "Own" a Real Estate interest in Florida. (at least for WDW home resorts as well as Vero Beach)

So...... If Disney affirms that we own real estate in Florida, and says.... no, INSISTS, that WDW is our "Home", then how can they not say that we are Florida residents, as least when we are at WDW?  

Disney should offer ALL the Florida resident perks, such as every Florida resident AP option, to DVC Members, even if only to be consistent with their branding.


----------



## nuhusky123

Do new club 33 members still get an annual pass?

would really diminish the value of club 33 if they also are blocked from passes

not going to lie, I’m tempted to buy a club 33 membership (waitlist of course) to get the annual pass and associated perks


----------



## suebeelin

Wait, club 33 members get access to AP's?!?


----------



## Sandisw

aka Charles said:


> It amazes me that as DVC Members, we are not offered access to all the Florida resident perks, discounts, etc.
> 
> When I log into the DVC member website, the first thing I see, BIG and BOLD, is "Welcome Back Home".
> Everything from the cast members, to the signs, to the magicband readers at the parks, says "Welcome Home".
> So according to Disney, we have a "Home" at WDW.
> 
> On the same Disney website it states that to become a member we "Purchase a real estate interest directly from Disney Vacation Club".
> This is Disney confirming that we legally "Own" a Real Estate interest in Florida. (at least for WDW home resorts as well as Vero Beach)
> 
> So...... If Disney affirms that we own real estate in Florida, and says.... no, INSISTS, that WDW is our "Home", then how can they not say that we are Florida residents, as least when we are at WDW?
> 
> Disney should offer ALL the Florida resident perks, such as every Florida resident AP option, to DVC Members, even if only to be consistent with their branding.



Because the POS clearly states that owning a timeshare does not qualify us as being considered a FL resident..which may based on FL law.  

Now, DPEP can decide what proof one needs to provide in order to purchase the  FL resident products it sells and over the years, it has relaxed those rules to allow things like a utility bill, etc. 

But, the whole welcome home is based on a timeshare being a home away from home and nothing more than that. 

Again, if they want to allow DVC owners the ability to purchase the same passes as FL residents, they don’t need ti qualify us as such. Just say these passes for for both FL residents and DVC..like the Sorcerr pass,,but they obviously don’t want us to be eligible for the same programs and thus, don’t allow proof of owning DVC as valid.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

nuhusky123 said:


> Do new club 33 members still get an annual pass?
> 
> would really diminish the value of club 33 if they also are blocked from passes
> 
> not going to lie, I’m tempted to buy a club 33 membership (waitlist of course) to get the annual pass and associated perks



Yes.  Not sure what wait list looks like these days.  I believe they also receive 50 single day tickets a year.


----------



## Sandisw

Prince John Robin Hood said:


> Yes.  Not sure what wait list looks like these days.  I believe they also receive 50 single day tickets a year.



Correct. They pay $33k to join and then $15K a year which includes those benefits. 

It is one very expensive program.


----------



## nuhusky123

Sandisw said:


> Correct. They pay $33k to join and then $15K a year which includes those benefits.
> 
> It is one very expensive program.


i Think I might try and go for club 33 vs buy another dvc contract. At least I’ll have tickets and the five tour guide days. So envious when I see families doing the tour jumping all the lines

probably sit on the waitlist for ten years though


----------



## nuhusky123

suebeelin said:


> Wait, club 33 members get access to AP's?!?


yes, I was wondering if new members are still getting issued the pass during this freeze period


----------



## Sandisw

nuhusky123 said:


> i Think I might try and go for club 33 vs buy another dvc contract. At least I’ll have tickets and the five tour guide days. So envious when I see families doing the tour jumping all the lines
> 
> probably sit on the waitlist for ten years though



Hey..it doesn’t hurt to get on thte waitlist! Plenty of time to save up the funds!!!


----------



## suebeelin

nuhusky123 said:


> yes, I was wondering if new members are still getting issued the pass during this freeze period


For $33,000 and $10k/yr, I would think yes….


----------



## Disney mac

Maximus68 said:


> I agree.  ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.  I have 900 points. WHERE AM I GOING ON VACATION??/


I just canceled Disney+ to maybe start responding with a pocketbook.   It's maddening knowing I had to sit on 3 years of points because of a medical emergency I had to deal with at Disney with my son and had to let our AP expire due to his condition.  Then when we finally were ready to buy AP, Covid and he had to lockdown for a year.  I had to quit my job to take care of him and home school him for a year...so now we have to use the points as we are all Banked out and I can't get a decent ticket offer for the weeks of points we are using.  I know considering what is going on in the world, my problem is nothing.  However, being forced to by multiple sets of tickets for the same stay is not what I want to do either....It sucks that a 10 day ticket expires after 14 days....


----------



## sethschroeder

suebeelin said:


> For $33,000 and $10k/yr, I would think yes….



Unless its included in the cost of their dues (which I dont think it is) not sure they can just offer it.


----------



## aka Charles

Sandisw said:


> Because the POS clearly states that owning a timeshare does not qualify us as being considered a FL resident..which may based on FL law.
> 
> Now, DPEP can decide what proof one needs to provide in order to purchase the  FL resident products it sells and over the years, it has relaxed those rules to allow things like a utility bill, etc.
> 
> But, the whole welcome home is based on a timeshare being a home away from home and nothing more than that.
> 
> Again, if they want to allow DVC owners the ability to purchase the same passes as FL residents, they don’t need ti qualify us as such. Just say these passes for for both FL residents and DVC..like the Sorcerr pass,,but they obviously don’t want us to be eligible for the same programs and thus, don’t allow proof of owning DVC as valid.


Haha, yeah, I know that… just venting a bit, and maybe hoping, just a little, that someone high up enough at DVC might decide to give the members a little love and open up all the available APs.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

I renewed mine today….

i could not buy a new one for my son…. His expired just before the pandemic and we forgot..

i explained that i paid 2000 dollars in park passes last year alone for him.  
she felt my pain, told me i was not alone and referred me to a complaint email disney has set up..

doesnt sound like they plan on changing anything anytime soon


----------



## Mexacajun

Robbie Cottam said:


> I renewed mine today….
> 
> i could not buy a new one for my son…. His expired just before the pandemic and we forgot..
> 
> i explained that i paid 2000 dollars in park passes last year alone for him.
> she felt my pain, told me i was not alone and referred me to a complaint email disney has set up..
> 
> doesnt sound like they plan on changing anything anytime soon


What’s the complaint email? I’ll send one too.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Guest.service@disneyworld.com


----------



## Sandisw

aka Charles said:


> Haha, yeah, I know that… just venting a bit, and maybe hoping, just a little, that someone high up enough at DVC might decide to give the members a little love and open up all the available APs.



This will sound like a broken record but DVC or DVD isn’t the one who gets to sell them. 

It is DPEP and that division makes the rules on what they do or do not sell.  

Obviously that division suspended the AP program and other than the pixie pass, they don’t want any other guests to have them. 

Hopefully whatever reason is preventing them will end soon!


----------



## Sandisw

sethschroeder said:


> Unless its included in the cost of their dues (which I dont think it is) not sure they can just offer it.



The $15k is a yearly fee and it comes with the pass, tickets, and other benefits. 

So, yes, they are giving passes to people who are a member of Club 33


----------



## nuhusky123

Sandisw said:


> The $15k is a yearly fee and it comes with the pass, tickets, and other benefits.
> 
> So, yes, they are giving passes to people who are a member of Club 33


I’m convinced I want to join now


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Maximus68 said:


> I agree.  ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.  I have 900 points. WHERE AM I GOING ON VACATION??/


At around $20 per point on the rental market, probably anywhere you want, for a lot less than Disney would have cost you.  Or you could sell them for what is probably a nice profit on the resale market.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

nuhusky123 said:


> Disney’s stock dropped by 7 points in after hour trading on Netflix news they Lost 200,000 vs gaining the expected 2.5M
> 
> fingers crossed Disney+ is in the same boat. The worse Disney+ performs the more Disney will need to rely on traditional business lines and ap may look more appealing to the bottom line
> 
> cross those fingers


I fear that Disney losing money on D+ will just lead to more cuts in the parks budgets.


----------



## ChipNdale8887

Sandisw said:


> Last year, they had a buy 4 get 2 day free ticket offer for cash guests and they allowed DVC owners the ability to purchase the same thing when staying on points.
> 
> So far, no ticket offers this year..


I think a place that sells tickets from a Frog has this deal still. I know Universal Studios has similar Ticket Offers. Please delete if this is not allowed. Just another disgruntled DVC member that is stuck with a 10 day ticket when I need 15 days and refused to pay full price for another 5 day ticket.


----------



## Sandisw

Www.undercovertourist.com


ChipNdale8887 said:


> I think a place that sells tickets from a Frog has this deal still. I know Universal Studios has similar Ticket Offers. Please delete if this is not allowed. Just another disgruntled DVC member that is stuck with a 10 day ticket when I need 15 days and refused to pay full price for another 5 day ticket.



Always  just post a link and don’t hint..hinting is not allowed if the site is blocked.

But this site is allowed again so posting www.undercovertourist.com.

Yeah, those are good options when DPEP isn’t offering any deals. But I agree, it is not ideal right now for many without the AP option.


----------



## ChipNdale8887

Sandisw said:


> Www.undercovertourist.com
> 
> 
> Always  just post a link and don’t hint..hinting is not allowed if the site is blocked.
> 
> But this site is allowed again so posting www.undercovertourist.com.


Oh I did not know that! Thanks Sandi


----------



## artesian

I'm in the same category as all the others here but I am responding by spending less on my parks vacation. Going in a few weeks for a 6 day stay and will do only 3 days all without G+. We plan on conquering what we can on rope drop and treat the rest of the day as whatever. Did also get super lucky as the job I just started does net me a few Uni pass once a year. My bet is the kids will probably be ok with doing both options from now on. Without AP's I can no longer justify ever year trips and will be back to an every other and getting creative with banking points.


----------



## nuhusky123

Jimmy Geppetto said:


> Florida’s governor may have had something to do with that drop too.


Stock drop yesterday Was after hours due to Netflix. But sure desantis won’t help


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## thanxfornoticin

Before some of you get a little crazy on the Club 33 idea, you need to do some research.  I thought the waitlist on membership, if they accept your application to join, is 3-5 years........  It's possible some members have cancelled or they've opened up new memberships around the various parks, but it's expensive, exclusive, and you likely need to wait!


----------



## nuhusky123

thanxfornoticin said:


> Before some of you get a little crazy on the Club 33 idea, you need to do some research.  I thought the waitlist on membership, if they accept your application to join, is 3-5 years........  It's possible some members have cancelled or they've opened up new memberships around the various parks, but it's expensive, exclusive, and you likely need to wait!


I think that’s a given. i view 33 as a long term investment in my park enjoyment to support my dvc investments


----------



## Brian Noble

Sandisw said:


> he POS clearly states that owning a timeshare does not qualify us as being considered a FL resident..which may based on FL law.


I think it has more to do with the fact that Disney very much does not want anyone "residing" within the boundaries of RCID unless they are Disney employees (and thus, vote the way Disney wants them to vote).

There's a reason that Celebration and Golden Oak were both de-annexed from the District before being developed.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

/


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


----------



## Sandisw

Brian Noble said:


> I think it has more to do with the fact that Disney very much does not want anyone "residing" within the boundaries of RCID unless they are Disney employees (and thus, vote the way Disney wants them to vote).
> 
> There's a reason that Celebration and Golden Oak were both de-annexed from the District before being developed.



That part is true but from what I have researched, timeshares in general do not allow people to establish residency in any state, including FL.  Disney still controls the requirements of what qualifies people from buying there products, and they could very well simply allow DVC owners to qualify for all AP passes, without even calling them residents.

They simply do the same as they do with the Sorcerer pass...make all AP options available to FL residents and DVC owners.


----------



## Brian Noble

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I do not think you are correct on when Disney left Celebration.  IIRC it was much later than prior to development.


Certainly possible. But it was definitely before anyone resided there. Democracy is messy when you have a privately-owned governmental entity.



Sandisw said:


> timeshares in general do not allow people to establish residency in any state


Agreed. But, I am not sure any of the others are so particular about including the disclaimer in their sales documents. Heck, there even is a clause like that for WDTC's hotel rentals---or at least there was the last time I rented a room from Disney directly.


----------



## mistysue

The whole club 33 thing is a fun and interesting day dream- but if the motivation is 100% to get an annual pass that fee money could buy MYW tickets as well... just to put that out there... It's fun/stress relieving to grumble about it a bit but anyone who can afford club 33 can afford a second or third set of tickets for sure.  I know sometimes it's about some moral stance, we *could* have paid for a third trip last year, but disgust at the situation said otherwise.  If we are that upset, pouring tens of thousands extra isn't gonna show 'em. 

Not that I didn't also take that idea seriously for a few minutes. My response to becoming a Florida resident is intense frustration with various other bonehead newsworthy events the past few days. I'm sure the people of Florida would be wonderful neighbors, but I'm good where I am, really.


----------



## nuhusky123

mistysue said:


> The whole club 33 thing is a fun and interesting day dream- but if the motivation is 100% to get an annual pass that fee money could buy MYW tickets as well... just to put that out there... It's fun/stress relieving to grumble about it a bit but anyone who can afford club 33 can afford a second or third set of tickets for sure.  I know sometimes it's about some moral stance, we *could* have paid for a third trip last year, but disgust at the situation said otherwise.  If we are that upset, pouring tens of thousands extra isn't gonna show 'em.
> 
> Not that I didn't also take that idea seriously for a few minutes. My response to becoming a Florida resident is intense frustration with various other bonehead newsworthy events the past few days. I'm sure the people of Florida would be wonderful neighbors, but I'm good where I am, really.


The passes seal the deal for me but what I like about club 33, in concept at least

1- place to relax in each park and eat away from the crowds
2- annual pass
3- five vip tour guide sessions
4- the fastpass perk, not sure what they do now for lightening lane but bet they have something 

number 1, place to go in each park is the real benefit. I’ve invested a crazy amount of $ in dvc to go back to Disney year over year. But when I’m in the park I’ve got no where to chill out and refresh. Perhaps 33 is the answer.

ive got years probably to sit on a waitlist so sure my mind will change 100 times


----------



## mistysue

nuhusky123 said:


> The passes seal the deal for me but what I like about club 33, in concept at least
> 
> 1- place to relax in each park and eat away from the crowds
> 2- annual pass
> 3- five vip tour guide sessions
> 4- the fastpass perk, not sure what they do now for lightening lane but bet they have something
> 
> number 1, place to go in each park is the real benefit. I’ve invested a crazy amount of $ in dvc to go back to Disney year over year. But when I’m in the park I’ve got no where to chill out and refresh. Perhaps 33 is the answer.
> 
> ive got years probably to sit on a waitlist so sure my mind will change 100 times


Agreed, those are good perks. 
Every time we go I'm crossing my fingers about the lounge above Figment still being there; I would LOVE more spaces to be able to just stop for a minute amongst all the chaos. I remember running numbers and figuring not too much of that cost was going to the prestige so much as the actual benefits. For the APs, in the past, it's the immediate family? Is there a quantity or an age cutoff for kids? It's overkill if all we wanted is APs though.


----------



## nuhusky123

mistysue said:


> Agreed, those are good perks.
> Every time we go I'm crossing my fingers about the lounge above Figment still being there; I would LOVE more spaces to be able to just stop for a minute amongst all the chaos. I remember running numbers and figuring not too much of that cost was going to the prestige so much as the actual benefits. For the APs, in the past, it's the immediate family? Is there a quantity or an age cutoff for kids? It's overkill if all we wanted is APs though.


You do also get 50 free tickets per year and can take two guests into the lounges

if the kids age out you have the tickets and two guest passes. Guess this just becomes harder if one becomes grandparents 

im a long way from that point at least


----------



## mistysue

nuhusky123 said:


> You do also get 50 free tickets per year and can take two guests into the lounges
> 
> if the kids age out you have the tickets and two guest passes. Guess this just becomes harder if one becomes grandparents
> 
> im a long way from that point at least


I became a mom at 22 and she just turned 19  I don't think I'd be able to stop laughing at myself if I became a grandma as soon as I could.


----------



## redboat45

nuhusky123 said:


> The passes seal the deal for me but what I like about club 33, in concept at least
> 
> 1- place to relax in each park and eat away from the crowds
> 2- annual pass
> 3- five vip tour guide sessions
> 4- the fastpass perk, not sure what they do now for lightening lane but bet they have something
> 
> number 1, place to go in each park is the real benefit. I’ve invested a crazy amount of $ in dvc to go back to Disney year over year. But when I’m in the park I’ve got no where to chill out and refresh. Perhaps 33 is the answer.
> 
> ive got years probably to sit on a waitlist so sure my mind will change 100 times


Can you go to the lounge in each park?  I thought it was just the park you bought in to?


----------



## nuhusky123

redboat45 said:


> Can you go to the lounge in each park?  I thought it was just the park you bought in to?


At wdw I believe you get all four lounges. One in each gate

but you do not by buying wdw club 33 get to go to Disneyland and to Shanghai

I just need the four wdw lounges, but those four wdw lounges would be amazing place to chill on a hot Florida day


----------



## Maistre Gracey

nuhusky123 said:


> I’m convinced I want to join now


Money and waitlist aside, it’s not an easy process. You cannot “join” Club 33. There is at least one interview, plus a fairly rigid selection process. 
I could be wrong, but I believe most are not invited into the Club.


----------



## nuhusky123

Maistre Gracey said:


> Money and waitlist aside, it’s not an easy process. You cannot “join” Club 33. There is at least one interview, plus a fairly rigid selection process.
> I could be wrong, but I believe most are not invited into the Club.


All one can do is try


----------



## Maistre Gracey

nuhusky123 said:


> All one can do is try


Good luck !!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## SL6827

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Hold onto your socks!  Florida senate just passed a bill to end the Reedy Creek Improvement District.   It is expected to pass the house and become law.  Disney will end up losing self governing powers regarding bonds, planning, development inspections and will incur a lot of tax burden going forward.  Less profitable revenue streams like our annual pass deals could be impacted.


Wow!


----------



## HarvardAce

Tried searching on the boards and this is the best thread I could come up with, but couldn't find an answer.  Our "Gold" APs expire in June and we are trying to renew them right now, but the only renewal option is for the "Incredi-Pass" which is more than we need.  My understanding is that there is still a lower option called "Sorcerer" but I am not getting the option to renew to that level.  Is that not available?  Is that temporary, or is it permanent?

Also, if I want the photopass option, can I get away with only having one of us have the option?  Would I still be able to download the pictures from others in my group?


----------



## Sandisw

HarvardAce said:


> Tried searching on the boards and this is the best thread I could come up with, but couldn't find an answer.  Our "Gold" APs expire in June and we are trying to renew them right now, but the only renewal option is for the "Incredi-Pass" which is more than we need, although it appears to be discounted ($1,175.76 with tax vs almost $1,400 with tax for a normal one).  My understanding is that there is still a lower option called "Sorcerer" but I am not getting the option to renew to that level.  Is that not available?  Is that temporary, or is it permanent?
> 
> Also, if I want the photopass option, can I get away with only having one of us have the option?  Would I still be able to download the pictures from others in my group?



To renew, you have to call as online only gives the option for Incredi Pass.  

And, yes, you can get away with just one getting Photopass as long as everyone is connected to you via MDE..


----------



## HarvardAce

Sandisw said:


> To renew, you have to call as online only gives the option for Incredi Pass.
> 
> And, yes, you can get away with just one getting Photopass as long as everyone is connected to you via MDE..


Perfect, thanks! Glad I asked, I think it's something like $400 cheaper per person, and we don't ever intend to come during Thanksgiving or Christmas/NYE time.  Looks like the new sorcerer pass doesn't block out spring break time either, which I think our gold passes did.


----------



## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Hold onto your socks!  Florida senate just passed a bill to end the Reedy Creek Improvement District.   It is expected to pass the house and become law.  Disney will end up losing self governing powers regarding bonds, planning, development inspections and will incur a lot of tax burden going forward.  Less profitable revenue streams like our annual pass deals could be impacted.


This whole thing is pretty hilarious

desantos will cancel reedy creek placing $1B of debt on the home owners of orange and Osceola counties equally upwards of $2000 per house hold in extra annual taxes

were i an Orange County home owner I’d be marching to Tallahassee with a pitchfork

that said even if this passes the house voters in both counties have to agree to the termination of reedy creek.

If voters agree then they deserve the $1B debt bill coming their way. That’s just the start of the butchers bill

this of course doesn’t even begin to take into account the annual cost to maintain facilities previously paid for by reedy creek. Florida voters better hold on to their britches and get out their check books


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## wolfawk

nuhusky123 said:


> This whole thing is pretty hilarious
> 
> desantos will cancel reedy creek placing $1B of debt on the home owners of orange and Osceola counties equally upwards of $2000 per house hold in extra annual taxes
> 
> were i an Orange County home owner I’d be marching to Tallahassee with a pitchfork
> 
> that said even if this passes the house voters in both counties have to agree to the termination of reedy creek.
> 
> If voters agree then they deserve the $1B debt bill coming their way. That’s just the start of the butchers bill
> 
> this of course doesn’t even begin to take into account the annual cost to maintain facilities previously paid for by reedy creek. Florida voters better hold on to their britches and get out their check books


I think one thing to remember.  Maintaining facilities to Disney standards and minimum legal standards are different.  So the counties could seek to reduce maintenance requirements, reduce staffing at fire departments, etc.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## wendy welcher

Anyone else seeing this around?


----------



## MamaBelle4

Relatively unrelated to annual passes, but do the prices fluctuate from UT and other resellers? I know they go UP, but do they ever go down?


----------



## TiggerBouncy

AP renewals are suspended in Disneyland.  Is this the beginning of the end of AP's? AFAIK up to now, they have been allowing all renewals, just not new purchases. 

https://wdwnt.com/2022/04/breaking-...enewal-of-dream-and-believe-magic-key-passes/


----------



## Sandisw

TiggerBouncy said:


> AP renewals are suspended in Disneyland.  Is this the beginning of the end of AP's? AFAIK up to now, they have been allowing all renewals, just not new purchases.
> 
> https://wdwnt.com/2022/04/breaking-...enewal-of-dream-and-believe-magic-key-passes/



From my understanding, this was just one guest who had used a certain ticket to upgrade and played a role in why it couldn't be renewed.  No one will be up for a real renewal until the fall and I wouldn't take one incident as a policy change...


----------



## erionm

MamaBelle4 said:


> Relatively unrelated to annual passes, but do the prices fluctuate from UT and other resellers? I know they go UP, but do they ever go down?


Third party ticket sellers purchase tickets at a wholesale rate which is about 10% less than gate pricing.  They then set their own pricing.  UT and other 3rd party ticket sellers do offer sales or discounts periodically.


----------



## CraigInPA

nuhusky123 said:


> Disney’s stock dropped by 7 points in after hour trading on Netflix news they Lost 200,000 vs gaining the expected 2.5M
> 
> fingers crossed Disney+ is in the same boat. The worse Disney+ performs the more Disney will need to rely on traditional business lines and ap may look more appealing to the bottom line
> 
> cross those fingers



Don't expect Disney+ to have any effect on annual pass sales. Annual pass sales are in the theme park's revenue stream. That stream is such a gigantic number that the revenue from annual pass sales is not even measurable to the bottom line.  They'll make more money by raising the price of a Mickey Ice Cream Bar by 25 cents.


----------



## MamaBelle4

erionm said:


> Third party ticket sellers purchase tickets at a wholesale rate which is about 10% less than gate pricing.  They then set their own pricing.  UT and other 3rd party ticket sellers do offer sales or discounts periodically.


Really? I have a little while to wait (we go in December), so I can wait to order to see what happens.


----------



## mistysue

MamaBelle4 said:


> Really? I have a little while to wait (we go in December), so I can wait to order to see what happens.


If it helps you with decision making, the sales I have noticed have been either save a few dollars if you buy Disney + another location,  OR "2 days only, get $5 off" type things. So if you aren't going to parks outside Disney, maybe wait until you get anxiety over needing to reserve parks but not any longer.

ETA- join their mailing list and they will tell you when they have a sale


----------



## MamaBelle4

mistysue said:


> If it helps you with decision making, the sales I have noticed have been either save a few dollars if you buy Disney + another location,  OR "2 days only, get $5 off" type things. So if you aren't going to parks outside Disney, maybe wait until you get anxiety over needing to reserve parks but not any longer.
> 
> ETA- join their mailing list and they will tell you when they have a sale


I joined UT mailing list. 

I'm talking about 5 adult & 3 kid 5 day passes, so any little bit helps!! Thanks!


----------



## mistysue

MamaBelle4 said:


> I joined UT mailing list.
> 
> I'm talking about 5 adult & 3 kid 5 day passes, so any little bit helps!! Thanks!


That may make $5 worth waiting for.   The one thing I will say is don't make the mistake I did- be sure you know how many days and whether you want Genie+ on there. We ended up adding a day to one ticket and Genie+ and wiped out the savings. While it used to be useful that you could modify after first use, now that means the risk of no park reservation so plan ahead.


----------



## VanDammage

Our annual passes are up for renewal and our youngest is turning 3 soon. Am I to assume he is out of luck with an annual pass if we choose to renew? Really puts into question whether we should renew.


----------



## Sandisw

VanDammage said:


> Our annual passes are up for renewal and our youngest is turning 3 soon. Am I to assume he is out of luck with an annual pass if we choose to renew? Really puts into question whether we should renew.



No.  Children who turn 3 for a family that already has AP's is the exception to the rule.  They are selling passes in this case so you should be able to get them one.


----------



## VanDammage

Sandisw said:


> No.  Children who turn 3 for a family that already has AP's is the exception to the rule.  They are selling passes in this case so you should be able to get them one.


Thank you! Glad I asked.


----------



## CarolMN

VanDammage said:


> Thank you! Glad I asked.


Get MS to help you with 3 year old's new pass when you call to renew.  (You have to call to renew Sorceror's pass).


----------



## TiggerBouncy

Sandisw said:


> From my understanding, this was just one guest who had used a certain ticket to upgrade and played a role in why it couldn't be renewed.  No one will be up for a real renewal until the fall and I wouldn't take one incident as a policy change...



Thank you for the clarification! The misleading story did not read that way.


----------



## keishashadow

Surprised this is still dragging on TBH.  Had thot purchase ability would be reinstated by now.

not that I expect any sympathy here, want to interject tho that one of the nice benefits in the past as an AP holder was ability to use the passes when booking bonus trips offsite, not necessarily in the DS bubble. 

like many others, several times since mid-point last year, we’ve found no DVC availability where we would want to stay for ’last minute’ trips i.e. a few months out.  Found ourselves booking highly inflated rates at the values, $200 range per night.

We haven’t been back to one of our favorite offsite properties, WBC, since they instituted the 3 days at a time park reservations rule.  Just too nervous we’d be locked out of even Ep or AK for day 4 of trip

In that vein of changes, do wonder when they do re-instate the ability to purchase at a discount; what other restrictive baggage might possibly be attached to the APs and gladly embraced after a long, dry spell For the members.


----------



## mistysue

keishashadow said:


> Surprised this is still dragging on TBH.  Had thot purchase ability would be reinstated by now.


As did we all. 
I think you're right about people being willing to give up more now that they've had to live in AP-less world. Concessions I would have been quite angry about 4 years ago would now still feel like relief.


----------



## SL6827

There's no telling how much Disney could take away from new APs, when they reinstate them, while charging a nice price hike on them.


----------



## hcortesis

SL6827 said:


> There's no telling how much Disney could take away from new APs, when they reinstate them, while charging a nice price hike on them.


I think Disney sees it differently than you or I.


----------



## cm8

Some people are reporting that they are NOT being allowed to renew their AP is they are out of state. Does anyone have any information in regards to this? This is as of yesterday.


----------



## Miffy

cm8 said:


> Some people are reporting that they are NOT being allowed to renew their AP is they are out of state. Does anyone have any information in regards to this? This is as of yesterday.


Oh no. Please let this not be true. My AP expires in July and I fully intend to renew it. Out of state here. And not DVC.


----------



## cm8

Miffy said:


> Oh no. Please let this not be true. My AP expires in July and I fully intend to renew it. Out of state here. And not DVC.


They just called again and got someone else who did the renewal for them. I would say the other CMs were just not trained properly? We are out of state as well and our passes are not up for renewal until October so this would have been an issue for us as well.


----------



## Marionnette

I just got an email this morning stating that "There's still time to renew!" My AP expired yesterday. I'm not a FL resident but Disney IT being what it is, they may just send that email out automatically.


----------



## Miffy

cm8 said:


> They just called again and got someone else who did the renewal for them. I would say the other CMs were just not trained properly? We are out of state as well and our passes are not up for renewal until October so this would have been an issue for us as well.


Whew! You had me worried there for a moment. As pricey as the AP is, there's no way I'm letting it expire now. The last 2 trips we took we benefited from AP room discounts--and the upcoming trip as well. I almost let mine lapse during the shutdown in 2020 but kept hoping I could go, so I retained it. I definitely didn't get the full value out of it that year, but I kept telling myself that the animals at DAK and AKL and AKV still needed to be taken care of so I imagined my AP money going toward that. Made me feel better about it.


----------



## cm8

Miffy said:


> Whew! You had me worried there for a moment. As pricey as the AP is, there's no way I'm letting it expire now. The last 2 trips we took we benefited from AP room discounts--and the upcoming trip as well. I almost let mine lapse during the shutdown in 2020 but kept hoping I could go, so I retained it. I definitely didn't get the full value out of it that year, but I kept telling myself that the animals at DAK and AKL and AKV still needed to be taken care of so I imagined my AP money going toward that. Made me feel better about it.


They had me worried as well! I’m keeping my AP as long as they let me!


----------



## Lisa75

Has anyone been able to upgrade a sorcerer pass to an incredipass recently?  Maybe on the phone?   Guest services would not let me in person last week.   Will have to buy ds tickets for Christmas it seems.  I still have incredipass.


----------



## hcortesis

Lisa75 said:


> Has anyone been able to upgrade a sorcerer pass to an incredipass recently?  Maybe on the phone?   Guest services would not let me in person last week.   Will have to buy ds tickets for Christmas it seems.  I still have incredipass.


Guest services told me the same thing last week.  When talking with DVC two days ago about a room reservation, I asked if I could upgrade my pass and was told yes, just call the Annual pass "hotline" as she called it.  I haven't called yet.


----------



## Lisa75

hcortesis said:


> Guest services told me the same thing last week.  When talking with DVC two days ago about a room reservation, I asked if I could upgrade my pass and was told yes, just call the Annual pass "hotline" as she called it.  I haven't called yet.


Great thanks!  Fingers crossed for both of us she is correct.


----------



## Hoppy-tn

Not sure when Disney will bring back annual pass but universal is taking advantage of the opportunity by just announcing a new entrance line coming  for annual pass holders  to use Along with hotel discounts and new dining locations for annual passholders and other things to come.might Be time to buy an annual pass and start visiting universal a little more.


----------



## cm8

Lisa75 said:


> Has anyone been able to upgrade a sorcerer pass to an incredipass recently?  Maybe on the phone?   Guest services would not let me in person last week.   Will have to buy ds tickets for Christmas it seems.  I still have incredipass.


It was my understanding that you could only upgrade to a higher pass once they started reselling passes or it was time for your renewal.


----------



## Lisa75

Ok thanks.   I will call and see.  We were given bad info on the phone that I could renew as sorcerer and use the value of an expired ticket towards the upgrade when in person.  This was recently and during the current period of them not selling AP’s.   If not we will get regular tickets to get him through Christmas and upgrade when we can.  It’s important to me to keep his pass current regardless. 

Very minor question.   If I have my incredipass at Christmas and he has a sorcerers but valid day tickets with park reservations will he be able to use the pass holder entrance at the parks during the blackout or no?  We rarely use it anyway but at Easter week it was empty at each park when we were tapping in so was nice.  

When I do call VIP AP I will report back.  Thanks all.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

ChipNdale8887 said:


> I think a place that sells tickets from a Frog has this deal still. I know Universal Studios has similar Ticket Offers. Please delete if this is not allowed. Just another disgruntled DVC member that is stuck with a 10 day ticket when I need 15 days and refused to pay full price for another 5 day ticket.


email Guest.services@disneyworld.com 

Let them know you'll be there for 15 days would have bought and annual pass but since you couldn't you'll now spend you money with someone else..


----------



## Lisa75

Hoppy-tn said:


> Not sure when Disney will bring back annual pass but universal is taking advantage of the opportunity by just announcing a new entrance line coming  for annual pass holders  to use Along with hotel discounts and new dining locations for annual passholders and other things to come.might Be time to buy an annual pass and start visiting universal a little more.


This!  We have universal preferred.    One day last week we drove to early entry at universal that’s included in the annual pass.  Night and day towards passholders versus Disney.  Team members so welcoming and excited to see passholders there at the checkpoints and very friendly when I asked guest services if we could use either park as we hadn’t gone from offsite before.  Enjoyed an empty diagon alley.     At Disney I am beginning to feel like a nuisance as a passholder


----------



## nuhusky123

Motley fool is predicting Disney gets rid of park reservations and annual passes by end of year

i sure hope they dead wrong


----------



## ars13

nuhusky123 said:


> Motley fool is predicting Disney gets rid of park reservations and annual passes by end of year
> 
> i sure hope they dead wrong


I doubt park reservations ever go away.  Park hopping rules maybe go away this year.

It would be extremely short sighted to completely end the annual pass program.  Sure the parks are packed now, but that will subside. People will go back to normal vacation trends.  Also, I hope they aren’t assuming everyone with annual passes will still go to the park just as much but pay daily tickets, because that won’t happen.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

https://insidethemagic.net/2021/12/disney-remove-lawsuit-annual-passholders-ab1/

i bet is has more to do with this…
someone didn’t read the fine print, got there feelings hurt, and is now suing…. until this is resolved I bet you won’t see AP come back


----------



## Disney mac

nuhusky123 said:


> Motley fool is predicting Disney gets rid of park reservations and annual passes by end of year
> 
> i sure hope they dead wrong


And I predict a huge surge in DVC listings.  Imagine if  even 10% of people decided to sell. DVC direct sales would be screwed.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Disney mac said:


> And I predict a huge surge in DVC listings.  Imagine if  even 10% of people decided to sell. DVC direct sales would be screwed.


I think you over estimate the number of DVC members that do more than one 10 day trip a year…


----------



## Disney mac

Robbie Cottam said:


> I think you over estimate the number of DVC members that do more than one 10 day trip a year…


I think a lot have always tried to do 2 trips in a 365 day period to enter parks.  I agree a lot won’t do anything, but everyone I know is starting to get fed up and thinking about selling.
We will either sell off our contract or use it to stay there and just get universal AP…I know it has become difficult to justify the 450 points we have.  So may sell of 2 of the contracts (if I can) and just keep the main one.  Sorry Disney…


----------



## ars13

Robbie Cottam said:


> I think you over estimate the number of DVC members that do more than one 10 day trip a year…


I get where that number comes from but it’s not accurate for everyone - you could also go by how many trips you make.

 I like to go for quick 3-5 day trips where I only go into the park 2 or so days.  I figure going to Disney on my points 3 times (2 park days) a year just about covers the sorcerers pass.  Add in the fact that I get free parking and park hopping ability and it’s definitely worth it.


----------



## jo-jo

Disney mac said:


> I think a lot have always tried to do 2 trips in a 365 day period to enter parks.  I agree a lot won’t do anything, but everyone I know is starting to get fed up and thinking about selling.
> We will either sell off our contract or use it to stay there and just get universal AP…



That was our game plan.   Last year we did 9 days in April, had planned a two week trip in Dec but needed to cancel , and just did a 8 day trip two days before AP was up.    We aren't renewing because of health concerns (aside from anything covid) but also we wouldn't take a trip for 7 months.   Doesn't make sense to start the clock ticking and still not sure we were would even take the trip in Dec..


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## New Mouse

Robbie Cottam said:


> https://insidethemagic.net/2021/12/disney-remove-lawsuit-annual-passholders-ab1/
> 
> i bet is has more to do with this…
> someone didn’t read the fine print, got there feelings hurt, and is now suing…. until this is resolved I bet you won’t see AP come back



If you are certain it's just because they didn't read the fine print then why are ap sales suspended?   Disney fears they might lose and until they know for sure they don't want to risk it.... aka....the fine print was false advertising.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Yes I do multiple trips a year and when all my DVC points are gone I stay on Hilton points at the LBV palace, and then at the swan .... So yes, I get it.... I sent an extra 1800 dollars on day passes for my son last year when I could not renew his ap just mine... Long story

However with the average 75 to 150 point contract you going for one 5 day trip or maybe two 4 days trips....
Two four day passes is less money than a sorcerer unless it is a renewal.....

At any rate.

Disney is kinda a weird position right now. 
The have lots of unused over seas DVC points that were extended by a double banking thing.... Those point will not expire until the end of 2022.... DVC resort are full in the slow times.... Normally a good problem to have. But not in this case.

They have record numbers of people that have been hiding in their basement for the last two years that need to get out.  They could not stand their families before Covid, Have spent 2 years in a small box with them, and now need to do something... so why not go to the angriest place on earth. 

I lot of US DVC member were able to bank there points into 2021 or mid way into 22 so there is that demand too.

Annual passes are a loss leader. Lets face it I spent an extra 1800 to get day passes.... 
So when there is high demand I can understand why they want to capture all that they can.... and not sell AP. They need to do something about the stock being down over almost 80 dollars.  

The parks are Covid Packed but still not at pre covid capacity (as least as recent as march 7th)  Let be honest, Just because I have had 3 shorts doesn't mean everyone else has.... I don't want to be packed in like sardines with an anti-vaxer and there 4 coughing and sneezing kids without some wiggle room.... Sorry, actually not sorry. I believe in modern medicine if you don't Let me introduce you to my friend Darwin.

At any rate, Capacity is limited, and you have a lot of EU travels finally able to return.  Can you see the mess if they couldn't get reservation because all the annual pass people showed up.... it would be another 90 plus page thread...

Until all or most of the surplus DVC points are consumed, normal demand isn't artificially high, and the park are back to full pool. It is not in Disney best interest to sell AP. It also isn't in anyone else's.  I know some people go to DVC and never enter the parks... I get it. But if you are planning a trip, planning spending days in the park but can't because the AP have taken all the spots you're going to be pretty upset. 

So since speculation is the magic of the DIS board.... When do I think AP will resume...... hopefully before Nov 12.... ask me when my next trip is..... Realistically, 1/1/2023....

Oh and as pointed out in a prior post..... Someone in CA sued Disney when she could not get a park reservation for her Magic Keys... Instead of suing for her $1000 dollars back, she is suing for $5 million...  On behalf of all Magic Key holders.. most of whom I'm sure are still using there park passes happily.  


New Mouse said:


> If you are certain it's just because they didn't read the fine print then why are ap sales suspended?   Disney fears they might lose and until they know for sure they don't want to risk it.... aka....the fine print was false advertising.


To be clear AP sales aren't suspended New Sale are, I renewed mine last week.  But to answer you question.  CA is in the 9th Circuit no one ever knows what they are going to do. Why would a company open themselves up to potentially more liability.  

If you remember Disney was selling annual passes post covid and stopped with out warning. They stopped 11 days after this lady filed her suit.  Coincidence? Maybe? You decide. 

Normally I call it SWAG but there is no science to this one.... my WAG is that before annual passes return 
        (Scientific Wild A Guess)
1.      demand needs to drop mid-week and off season,
2.      the banked covid DVD points need to be used up,
3.      park capacity need to return to almost pre covid normal
4.      that law suit need to get dismissed or settled favorably 

IMHO, I await you thoughts


----------



## DebbieB

https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/04/27/3-disney-world-predictions-you-wont-see-coming/

Many DVC members would be screwed, including myself. I typically get 3 trips out of an AP.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

DebbieB said:


> https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/04/27/3-disney-world-predictions-you-wont-see-coming/
> 
> Many DVC members would be screwed, including myself. I typically get 3 trips out of an AP.


YES, ME TOO
to the tune of 1800 dollars last year luckily the timing worked out that I was able to renew mine or it would have been double


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Robbie Cottam

I 


Ms Bibbidi said:


> Motley Fool made some predictions.  Their analysis didn't include a bunch of factors.
> 
> I have made a "WAG".  The 2nd Quarter numbers, expected on May 11th could be good - it covers the period from January 1 to March 31, 2022 and we know the parks were jam packed for most of that time.  I don't personally know about streaming and the vast other factors.  But, the parks performance is most predictive of restoring annual pass sales.
> 
> We "_might"_ see an announcement about a week or so before the Q3 2022 results come out (about August 11th).  I will be watching the dates around August 3rd.  Sales _"might" _begin September 7th; after the Labor Day crowds go home.
> 
> If it doesn't happen about that timeframe, then further delays might be impacted by:
> (1) The "revenge" travel surge -- due to banked DVC points, relaxing international travel standards, post-pandemic domestic travel demand etc.  (In other words the parks and hotels are still operating very full.)​(2) Slow recovery for hiring local employees (housing and rent prices are exploding in the Orlando market).  They also need to deal with better engineering, maintenance and the issue of frequent ride breakdowns.​(3) Some main crowd eater venues are still not back online (Including the trams.)​(4) Tron previews and opening gets moved to 2023 .​(5) The key issues surrounding the improvement district are not close to resolution.​(6) A recession has not yet impacted park demands.​(7) The California passholder litigation is not close to being resolved.  Both parties have demanded a jury trial.​​So, this is a very light "might" forecast.  There are a lot of potholes.  The Motley Fool predicted significant price increases.  I think we can all foresee that coming.  I think it could be quite a price hike!  Motley Fool predicted Disney might get rid of the "buffet" of types of passes and only offer two types of passes; the lowest Pixie Dust type that is limited to weekdays and excludes holidays, and something like the Incredi-Pass.  I don't have that much feel for the types of pass, but I think it might be on Disney's mind to block out spring break, Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays from all passholders.  Motley Fool talked about the current price of $399 for the Pixie (and predicted a large price increase for all passes) but said the top pass might be 4(+) times that amount.  I think it will go more than that.  I am thinking that top pass could be hanging around $2,000.   That is just about 2 1/4 days a month at the rate they sell Florida MYW tickets on specials for the Florida die hard fan who is not satisfied with the weekday and no holidays pass -- and they get weekends and minor holidays.   In other words, it would take about 15 days a year at regular prices (without a special) to make it break even.  That's where the huge inflation is going to bite; in the number of days it takes to make that pass break even. However, they might do something like sell their DVC guests a certain daily rate for length of stay passes.
> 
> Motley Fool also indicated they might get rid of the park reservation system.  Apparently Disney has made statements that they developed that in part to accommodate guest complaints.  If that is true, they might also get rid of it based on guest complaints.  If they did only have two types of passes, they might regulate the flow of visitors by selling tickets that have specific park specials.  There are many options for them.  Park reservations was only one.  If other parks in the industry are relaxing reservation standards, Disney could as well.  They do still have DVC units on the books and many to sell.  Annual Passes are a big, selling draw for the DVC units.


would have gladly bought my son the incredi-pass and still save 1400 dollars


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> https://insidethemagic.net/2021/12/disney-remove-lawsuit-annual-passholders-ab1/
> 
> i bet is has more to do with this…
> someone didn’t read the fine print, got there feelings hurt, and is now suing…. until this is resolved I bet you won’t see AP come back


That lawsuit absolutely isn’t about “not reading the fine print.”  People bought the highest level Disneyland AP passes, advertised as having “no blockout dates,” and then found that every reservation was unavailable for months at a time because the parks were “sold out” at the same time that Disney kept selling day tickets to people who walked up to the gate.  The passes were functionally useless.  As others have pointed out in this thread, that lawsuit has teeth, and what Disney did was incredibly deceptive.


----------



## Sandisw

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> That lawsuit absolutely isn’t about “not reading the fine print.”  People bought the highest level Disneyland AP passes, advertised as having “no blockout dates,” and then found that every reservation was unavailable for months at a time because the parks were “sold out” at the same time that Disney kept selling day tickets to people who walked up to the gate.  The passes were functionally useless.  As others have pointed out in this thread, that lawsuit has teeth, and what Disney did was incredibly deceptive.



And the key to what you point out..IMO..is that they were still selling tickets to day guests. 

Had they not done that and it had just been that the reservations were full, it would have matched the terms and conditions.  It’s the blocking of an AP on a date not officially blocked out when there was obviously still park spots left.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

L


AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> That lawsuit absolutely isn’t about “not reading the fine print.”  People bought the highest level Disneyland AP passes, advertised as having “no blockout dates,” and then found that every reservation was unavailable for months at a time because the parks were “sold out” at the same time that Disney kept selling day tickets to people who walked up to the gate.  The passes were functionally useless.  As others have pointed out in this thread, that lawsuit has teeth, and what Disney did was incredibly deceptive.


If that is the case, then the trial will not last very long!


----------



## nuhusky123

Robbie Cottam said:


> L
> 
> If that is the case, then the trial will not last very long!


 by Not long you mean years vs decades?

let’s not forget the appeal process. This won’t be over quickly unless settled


----------



## Robbie Cottam

nuhusky123 said:


> by Not long you mean years vs decades?
> 
> let’s not forget the appeal process. This won’t be over quickly unless settled


No I was thinking that if that claim can be proven Disney would settle quickly with a non disclosure agreement… 

But conversely, Disney has the records of all the Magic Key holder that were in the park on the days in question too…


----------



## sndral

This morning I received a survey link via email from Disney Destinations research about APs (I currently have one) but apparently they weren’t interested in my responses since after telling them I didn’t work in any of the industries listed & my zip code (west coast) they said - basically - never mind you aren’t the demographic we want to survey.


----------



## Disney mac

sndral said:


> This morning I received a survey link via email from Disney Destinations research about APs (I currently have one) but apparently they weren’t interested in my responses since after telling them I didn’t work in any of the industries listed & my zip code (west coast) they said - basically - never mind you aren’t the demographic we want to survey.


But then they couldn’t give their “the people want to be charged more for less services” garbage they like to say.


----------



## heynowirv

sndral said:


> This morning I received a survey link via email from Disney Destinations research about APs (I currently have one) but apparently they weren’t interested in my responses since after telling them I didn’t work in any of the industries listed & my zip code (west coast) they said - basically - never mind you aren’t the demographic we want to survey.


I got one of those to and when I responded that I work in health care was told the same thing.


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## AnnaKristoff2013

Sandisw said:


> And the key to what you point out..IMO..is that they were still selling tickets to day guests.
> 
> Had they not done that and it had just been that the reservations were full, it would have matched the terms and conditions.  It’s the blocking of an AP on a date not officially blocked out when there was obviously still park spots left.


Yes, I agree 100 percent.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> It is a class action suit.  They cannot settle quickly with a non disclosure agreement.  They will have to notify the members of the class.  Basically, everybody who was a passholder between when they started selling passes again in August and September 2021 and started the park reservation system and November 21st when they stopped selling new passes is a plaintiff.  They do not want to expand that group of people so they stopped new pass sales; except the low level in-state Florida and California passes which they might have to continue as a mitigation condition of development permits.
> 
> Also, all they had to do is tell one passholder there was no availability while they had availability for tickets.  It does not matter how many passholders are in the park.  They could not reserve availability for tickets when they had already sold that spot previously to a passholder.  They took from the passholder to make more money on a ticket buying guest.


Has the “class” actually been certified? 
if it is a class action suit, the legal fees are going to more then the 5 million dollars they were seeking.


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## Robbie Cottam

*THEME PARK ADMISSION:*


To enter a Disneyland® Resort theme park, each Passholder is required to have a theme park reservation and valid admission for the same park on the same date. Park reservations are limited and subject to availability and applicable Pass blockout dates. Passholders should ensure their Pass type is valid for park entry prior to making a park reservation. It may be difficult for Passholders to get park reservations to visit on certain dates or a select park, and park reservations are not guaranteed for any specific dates or park, no matter the Pass type. Additionally, park reservations may not be available on select holidays for certain parks. A Pass will not guarantee park entry. Other restrictions, such as Park Hopper® rules, may apply.
I would be very interested to know when Disney published this.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Robbie Cottam

That


Ms Bibbidi said:


> https://www.pacermonitor.com/public...v_Walt_Disney_Parks_and_Resorts_US,_Inc_et_al
> 
> Also, the $5 million is not the amount of the claim, it is the jurisdictional level in order to be eligible for removal to the Federal court based on diversity of citizenship.



That link requires a rather expensive subscription, has the class been certified?
Also” . *A minimum monetary value of a claim that must be met in order for a court to have jurisdiction over that claim*. For example, in federal court diversity jurisdiction cases, the jurisdictional amount is $75,000.” According to WEXLAW


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## WilsonFlyer

{Oh man! I could get fired up but I'd also probably get kicked off.}

My AP is good for *any* day I *want* to go in the parks. 10 minutes' notice. *Any* park. Any *TIME*. THAT'S what I paid for. NOTHING less.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Robbie Cottam

Yes’m until May, 6th.
But from what I could see the parties have both filed motion on the “class” question but that was be tabled


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## Robbie Cottam

WilsonFlyer said:


> {Oh man! I could get fired up but I'd also probably get kicked off.}
> 
> My AP is good for *any* day I *want* to go in the parks. 10 minutes' notice. *Any* park. Any *TIME*. THAT'S what I paid for. NOTHING less.


Yes, you are 100 percent correct! I totally agree.

However, park admission also requires a park reservation.
I have keep my annual pass current since 2017. When the parks reopened I believe i got an email, or it was included with the renewal receipts that entrance into the park required both a paid admission and a reservation.

I have seen it on ever single disney ad since the parks reopened.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> "Class defendants prefer federal court.  In any putative class action filed in state court, the first issue to analyze is whether the case can be removed to federal court, and any such analysis typically involves whether the case satisfies the $5 million jurisdictional threshold of the Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA).  While CAFA largely has eliminated the judicial anti-removal bias that prevailed prior to its enactment, district courts are still tempted – sometimes as a docket-clearing mechanism – to kick cases back to state court.  In two recent Ninth Circuit cases, the appellate court overturned decisions remanding putative class actions to state court, on the ground that the district courts applied overly strict standards relative to the establishment of CAFA’s jurisdictional threshold.  These decisions serve as a reminder a class defendant need only make a plausible case that $5 million or more is at stake to remove under CAFA." [This is a quote from a law firm's website, but I'm too lazy to cite it.  Kirkpatrick Townsend, I think -- just so I don't get into trouble for not giving credit.]


Great, Thank you

But has the class been certified.  

Nothing I can find says it has been. however I don’t actually have access to anything really useful.  There is reference to some motions, the have been continued to a case management conference in late June.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> It doesn't matter when.  There are principles of law that will apply.  So, just having availability in the footnote does not mean the claim is automatically defeated.  They have always had availability boilerplate.  However, in the past that was because of severe weather, parks reaching Fire Marshal restrictions on capacity or other things beyond Disney's control.  Just think of this.  If Disney wanted to under your interpretation of the availability language they could sell a billion dollars worth of annual passes and then just say, we don't have any availability for passholders for the foreseeable future because of a high post-pandemic travel demand.  Try again after January 2024.  We like people to have a good experience with space in the park and we are filling it up with resort guests and ticket holders.  So, their bucket gets all of the reservations.  If we have any left over, we will post them to passholders 24 hours prior, but still hold a few thousand back for same day gate tickets.  Do you think you agreed to that?


True, but doesn’t the purchase of the ticket create a contract between Disney and the purchaser.  Disney has the right to set limits on there parks. 

I can‘t show up at 2 am and stay I want to go space mountain because the park is closed. 

is the claim that Disney should reserve 3600 park slots everyday I case a Magic Pass holder shows up?

If that theory succeeds you are going to see the cost of annual passes with a few more zeros on the end of them.

Who wants to pay $13,999 dollars per year for there annual pass?

Also what you refer to as a footnote, someone else may term a contract stipulation.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You are correct.  However, the key point here is blocking passholders (on a day when their block-out calendar does not block them) just to give the reservation to a ticketed guest.  They are still allowing reservations to go to ticket sales while blocking passholders who cannot get a reservation.  Nobody is arguing that a reservation is not needed because we are passholders. That is what happened to Nielsen.  She had an annual pass (hers happened to be without any blockout dates).  She had family who needed tickets.  She went online and found her ticket buying family could get park reservations, but she could not.  This was early October and there were only about 17 days open for her through the end of December.  (Disneyland Resort).  She had to buy tickets to make the trip with her family.


Has that claim been proven?  If so I would say Disney has a problem, if not sour grapes


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> Has the “class” actually been certified?
> if it is a class action suit, the legal fees are going to more then the 5 million dollars they were seeking.


The class has not been certified yet, early days still.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

_the way I see it _this law suit cost me 1800 last year and is going to cost me close to 6000 grand this year ….. I wonder if I can sue the class


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> _the way I see it _this law suit cost me 1800 last year and is going to cost me close to 6000 grand this year ….. I wonder if I can sue the class


Well, Disney’s terms and conditions when they started selling the passes indicated that they were limited availability.  You didn’t buy them immediately and were blocked out when they stopped selling them.  If the plaintiff suing has “sour grapes,” is not what you have also “sour grapes?”  In any event, your beef shouldn’t be with the plaintiff, it should be with Disney.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


----------



## Sandisw

Robbie Cottam said:


> True, but doesn’t the purchase of the ticket create a contract between Disney and the purchaser.  Disney has the right to set limits on there parks.
> 
> I can‘t show up at 2 am and stay I want to go space mountain because the park is closed.
> 
> is the claim that Disney should reserve 3600 park slots everyday I case a Magic Pass holder shows up?
> 
> If that theory succeeds you are going to see the cost of annual passes with a few more zeros on the end of them.
> 
> Who wants to pay $13,999 dollars per year for there annual pass?
> 
> Also what you refer to as a footnote, someone else may term a contract stipulation.



I think the claim is that they can use the system and allocate between buckets, but if the AP bucket is full and the ticket bucket is not, then they have to adjust if it is not a block out date for passes since they have, in essence already sold a spot for that day when they sold the AP.

Now, the terms and conditions do state that an AP requires a park reservation and is subject to availability so I don’t think  that is an issue.

But if more AP holders decide to go on a certain day, and spots are still open, they should be given them, regardless if they were initially slated for ticket holders.

If not, they need to change the structure of an AP...which could end up making it quite expensive.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

This is largely going to be moot in a year or two when demand crashes.  Demand can’t stay sky-high forever.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> This is largely going to be moot in a year or two when demand crashes.  Demand can’t stay sky-high forever.


I agree in part and dis agree in part…… sorry couldn’t help myself….

yes demand will go down…. My guess first of the year 23  Maybe disney can keep it up through the end on the 50th celerbration…. But that’s kinda a lot.

however, how low will it go,  crash…. 
No

pre covid demand  +/-… yes…
Unless we are in a full on Great Depression number 2 then Disney is a ghost town


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Not sure if I’m reading the responses correctly, but it sounds like some are saying no AP’s due to the California suit. 
If that’s the case, than why are the still selling renewals?


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## Maistre Gracey

Why did that come out bolded?

Okay… fixed


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## CarolMN

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Because all of the people who already had APs when they stopped selling them would already be in the plaintiff class since the case was filed as a class action suit. They stopped so they would not grow the class of plaintiffs.


So anyone who has an Incredipass or Sorcerers pass now is potentially part of the class?  That's interesting.  

Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts.   Much appreciated.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Maistre Gracey said:


> Not sure if I’m reading the responses correctly, but it sounds like some are saying no AP’s due to the California suit.
> If that’s the case, than why are the still selling renewals?


Service to the customer.
comply with the contract terms.

Renewals never really stoped.  Once the parks reopened anyone with a current AP was given back the lost time with the right to renew.


----------



## dcfromva

CarolMN said:


> So anyone who has an Incredipass or Sorcerers pass now is potentially part of the class?  That's interesting.
> 
> Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts.   Much appreciated.



  I'm not sure about that.  First of all, the lawsuit was filed for Disneyland so as far as I know it only includes passes sold there.  Also, I "think" the suit pertained the the passes with no block out dates.   I believe the system at WDW might be slightly different.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Interesting question:
in you have an annual pass and show up at the gate when the park is in phase 4 full capacity …. You would get turned away, would you not?

How is this any different?


----------



## Marionnette

Robbie Cottam said:


> Interesting question:
> in you have an annual pass and show up at the gate when the park is in phase 4 full capacity …. You would get turned away, would you not?
> 
> How is this any different?


The difference is that the park was not at full capacity. DL was selling "day of" tickets but AP holders could not book a park reservation because the AP "bucket" was empty.


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Robbie Cottam

Marionnette said:


> The difference is that the park was not at full capacity. DL was selling "day of" tickets but AP holders could not book a park reservation because the AP "bucket" was empty.


I know that is what she claims in her suit but has that been proven?


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Other than economic recession or something, demand could stay very high.  I have seen a number of posts from people who bought annual passes saying they take more trips per year to make use of their APs.  Demand might also drop.  Having room in the parks is definitely the key factor regarding the unavailability and whether Disney has a right to prioritize ticket holders or resort guests over passholders trying to get a reservation.
> 
> I wonder how it would affect passholder sales if Disney made a bold 14 point type disclosure something like this.  “Warning.  All guests must have a valid park reservation to enter the first park on the day of a visit.  Disney reserves the right to deny passholders a park reservation in favor of ticketed or any other type of guest regardless of whether or not the day is blocked out on the calendar for the passholder.  Risk of non availability is extremely high during weekends, most holiday periods and when Disney is hosting special events.  Risk of nonavailabilty also causes periods when obtaining reservations for consecutive days is not possible for passholders.  Annual pass reservation availability is based on a space available basis and ticket reservations may still be sold when passholder availability is locked out.”


You mean like the one I posted a couple of days ago

or this:

Annual Passes​Annual Passes allow you to enjoy the magic all year long. Now is the time to answer the call and discover all the possibilities a Walt Disney World Annual Pass can bring.

To enter a theme park, each passholder must have a theme park reservation in addition to a valid pass. Park reservations are limited and are subject to availability and applicable pass blockout dates.

New sales of select Annual Passes are currently paused. Please check disneyworld.com/pass for the latest updates.

to the best of my memory that disclosure was added with the theme park reservation system before the park reopened…..


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> No.  The disclosure and warning I drafted as a hypothetical is much different than just the idea is a possible park closure or reaching safety caps.  The burden is on the one having a duty to disclose to make it clear.  Many cases regarding contracts have supported this.


I know your not going to believe this, however, your verbose disclosure and Disney’s are the same.


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Robbie Cottam

*yes, but this day we’re not blacked out.   *Others who planned accordingly were able to use their magic keys to enter the park….. Proper planning prevent piss poor performance.

this is different than not book DVC point until a month before they expire to find out there are no rooms left!


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Blockout and unavailability are the same: the passholder is denied entry for a day they already purchased.  The language in the footnote was not enough to support a case dismissal.  The Judge decided that; not me.  The case is going forward because she has stated a claim upon which relief could be granted.
> 
> Sorry, but the law is read into the contract.  That makes the reservation language and the availability language ambiguous and subject to legal contract interpretation by the courts.  It is not about planning.  It is about contact interpretation.


They are not the same in Black out non of the class would have entered the park on the day in question.  According to you some did.

Unavailability mean her buck was full.

The court looked at this case “in a light most favorable to the non moving party” (the plaintiff) and dismissed most of her case.   That means the judge said there is no set of facts, that you could claim, that would result in a favorable outcome for you if this went to trail.

Someone else on this thread said that the lawsuit had teeth…. I think the judge knocked those teeth out.



Ms Bibbidi said:


> If “proper planning” was the pivotal issue then availability and reservations would be cut off from all park guests at a fixed point prior to park day.  In your example that would be … what … 60 days prior to park day — no more reservations for anybody?  That would have to be a highlighted and detailed disclosure too.


No not at all. A number of Magic pass holder planned accordingly and were able to enter the park on the day in question .

Planning is part of life.
Showing up and walking in is not always possible. Calling an hour ahead is not always possible .


----------



## DeeBee3

Blackout is completely different than unavailability.

Blackout - preset days passholders of whatever category cannot enter park with pass.

Unavailability - park is full (aka Christmas or New Year's) and no one of any ticket is allowed in.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## RoseGold

Disney's treatment of the Magic Keys was terrible.  It has really made me second guess APs and my WDW plans in general.

I would not be surprised to see similar shenanigans in Florida once the lawyers clear it up or make the right contract or whatever.  They have been very clear in their words and actions what their objective is for APs.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

RoseGold said:


> Disney's treatment of the Magic Keys was terrible.  It has really made me second guess APs and my WDW plans in general.
> 
> I would not be surprised to see similar shenanigans in Florida once the lawyers clear it up or make the right contract or whatever.  They have been very clear in their words and actions what their objective is for APs.


Because of this law suit Disney is not able to properly treat their DVC members, by providing them annual passes


----------



## Sandisw

Robbie Cottam said:


> I know that is what she claims in her suit but has that been proven?


Yes.  She was allowed to buy tickets for her family and was forced to buy a ticket for herself and was able to go in.


----------



## Sandisw

Robbie Cottam said:


> Because of this law suit Disney is not able to properly treat their DVC members, by providing them annual passes


Except they have no contract with DVC owners to provide such a product.  So lawsuit aside, they don't have to sell new passes to any of us.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Sandisw said:


> Yes.  She was allowed to buy tickets for her family and was forced to buy a ticket for herself and was able to go in.


Well that could be problematic for Disney!


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Sandisw said:


> Except they have no contract with DVC owners to provide such a product.  So lawsuit aside, they don't have to sell new passes to any of us.


True but it is implied… with the annual pass holder discount….

No I would not make that arguement in court.


----------



## Sandisw

Robbie Cottam said:


> True but it is implied… with the annual pass holder discount….
> 
> No I would not make that arguement in court.



I can not even say it is implied because membership extras are just that...incidental benefits that are not guaranteed in anyway.  There have been times throughout DVC where they were not a part of the extras we got.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Maistre Gracey said:


> Not sure if I’m reading the responses correctly, but it sounds like some are saying no AP’s due to the California suit.
> If that’s the case, than why are the still selling renewals?


Seling renewals doesn’t potentially expand the class in the same way that selling new passes does.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

CarolMN said:


> So anyone who has an Incredipass or Sorcerers pass now is potentially part of the class?  That's interesting.
> 
> Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts.   Much appreciated.


If it gets certified everyone with the DL passes will likely be part of the class.  Everyone with the DW passes could potentially be part of the class as well, but that is not certain.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> Interesting question:
> in you have an annual pass and show up at the gate when the park is in phase 4 full capacity …. You would get turned away, would you not?
> 
> How is this any different?


Because they wouldn’t sell day tickets to walk-ups during a phase IV closure.  The issue isn’t that they blocked out passholders becuase they hit capacity.  The issue is that they blocked out passholders while hitting an artificial capacity they made up while simultaneously continuing to sell tickets to day guests.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> *yes, but this day we’re not blacked out.   *Others who planned accordingly were able to use their magic keys to enter the park….. Proper planning prevent piss poor performance.
> 
> this is different than not book DVC point until a month before they expire to find out there are no rooms left!


Your dvc analogy is actually unwittingly a really good example of why the AP buckets were a problem.  DVC has a set number of points in the system and they cannot sell more points then what is declared, such that theoretically everyone will be able to use all the points they have bought.  (Obviously in practice you can’t always get the dates you want, etc.).  However, what they did with AP’s was different.  They sold them without a care about whether everyone would actually be able to use them, and artificially limited their use by “blocking out” spots for more profitable day ticket guests.  The DVC analogy would be if they started just taking rooms out of inventory (beyond those that disney owns the points for and beyond breakage), to rent those rooms to cash guests.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> Because of this law suit Disney is not able to properly treat their DVC members, by providing them annual passes


False.  Because of this lawsuit Disney is **choosing** not to provide annual passes to sale for DVC members.  They could absolutely start selling them anytime they wanted to, if they stopped discriminating against AP holders in favor of day guests.  They obviously dont’ want to do that because day guests are more profitable.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Because they wouldn’t sell day tickets to walk-ups during a phase IV closure.  The issue isn’t that they blocked out passholders becuase they hit capacity.  The issue is that they blocked out passholders while hitting an artificial capacity they made up while simultaneously continuing to sell tickets to day guests.


I’m going to wait and see what parks of the complaint the judge dismissed.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Your dvc analogy is actually unwittingly a really good example of why the AP buckets were a problem.  DVC has a set number of points in the system and they cannot sell more points then what is declared, such that theoretically everyone will be able to use all the points they have bought.  (Obviously in practice you can’t always get the dates you want, etc.).  However, what they did with AP’s was different.  They sold them without a care about whether everyone would actually be able to use them, and artificially limited their use by “blocking out” spots for more profitable day ticket guests.  The DVC analogy would be if they started just taking rooms out of inventory (beyond those that disney owns the points for and beyond breakage), to rent those rooms to cash guests.


I disagree they “blocked out”, if you’re are also claiming that the AP bucket was full.
Either the dates were blacked out and NO AP member were able to enter the park that day using their AP. Or Other annual pass holder filled the bucket for the day and there were no more relations available.

Having the AP alone does not Guarantee admission.

I still what to see what parts of this case were dismissed.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> False.  Because of this lawsuit Disney is **choosing** not to provide annual passes to sale for DVC members.  They could absolutely start selling them anytime they wanted to, if they stopped discriminating against AP holders in favor of day guests.  They obviously dont’ want to do that because day guests are more profitable.


If that were true they would be renew annual passes at all.

I renewed my annual pass last week, so you are in fact wrong.


----------



## Sandisw

Robbie Cottam said:


> If that were true they would be renew annual passes at all.
> 
> I renewed my annual pass last week, so you are in fact wrong.



Except renewals doesn’t increase AP holders..except those with pixie passes. 

And, if someone doesn’t renew, it goes down with no new ones sold.  So, by stopping the sales, they have chosen to prioritize those who use day tickets instead.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Yes, but the extend the time that I could potentially be part of a class.

I find it more that slightly amusing that in 8 trips I have gone on and two the my SO has gone on with her kids I was not there we have had ZERO ISSUES booking park reservation.

Guess I part of Disney’s chosen class….
Or I book early and often.

Again, with knowing what the judge dismissed we are all speculating here….


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> Yes, but the extend the time that I could potentially be part of a class.


That is not how class action lawsuits work.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Actually, it is exactly how a class action law suits works.  It you bought a product during a specific time.

if you purchased this product between a and b, you may be part of a class…..


AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> That is not how class action lawsuits work.


this one is a wells fargo class action:
“Consumers who used a bank ATM to withdraw cash from another bank ATM and paid an unreimbursed surcharge between October 1, 2007 and November 12, 2021 may be eligible for payment.”

you realize just because you bought a product once does not make you part of the class right.

you also realize that without knowing what parts of the lawsuit were dismissed, if the the plaintiff will amend her complain, how Disney will answer, and if that amended complaint will survive….we are actually arguing over fiction!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> As you said, these are early days.  My Pacer subscription is not active, so I cannot read Judge Carter’s April 6, 2022 order.  I do not want to pay for it just to answer someone who is … well anyway.  That is futile.  So let’s refocus to see if we can observe some palpable recent change in Disney’s handling of park reservations for passholders since April 6th.  I know I did see a change towards prioritizing passholder access starting November 24th.  I know conduct of a defendant correcting tortious acts cannot be admitted in evidence to prove the tort, but we are not in court.  It may help us see which way they are going now.
> 
> I am kind of conflicted by this case and the manipulation of reservations to throttle passholders.  I want Disney to be ok because I love Disney World etc like everybody else.  But using reservations to surreptitiously define availability and throttle passholders is quite another thing.  I would vote to drop the reservation system and move on, but I guess I do not get a vote.  Is there any place where we can be noisy enough that Disney might hear us and consider doing that?


You both realize this is not a class action case at this point, correct?


----------



## New Mouse

Robbie Cottam said:


> I disagree they “blocked out”, if you’re are also claiming that the AP bucket was full.
> Either the dates were blacked out and NO AP member were able to enter the park that day using their AP. Or Other annual pass holder filled the bucket for the day and there were no more relations available.
> 
> Having the AP alone does not Guarantee admission.
> 
> I still what to see what parts of this case were dismissed.



Actually it does....that's what by standard definition an AP is.


----------



## New Mouse

Ms Bibbidi said:


> As you said, these are early days.  My Pacer subscription is not active, so I cannot read Judge Carter’s April 6, 2022 order.  I do not want to pay for it just to answer someone who is … well anyway.  That is futile.  So let’s refocus to see if we can observe some palpable recent change in Disney’s handling of park reservations for passholders since April 6th.  I know I did see a change towards prioritizing passholder access starting November 24th.  I know conduct of a defendant correcting tortious acts cannot be admitted in evidence to prove the tort, but we are not in court.  It may help us see which way they are going now.
> 
> I am kind of conflicted by this case and the manipulation of reservations to throttle passholders.  I want Disney to be ok because I love Disney World etc like everybody else.  But using reservations to surreptitiously define availability and throttle passholders is quite another thing.  I would vote to drop the reservation system and move on, but I guess I do not get a vote.  Is there any place where we can be noisy enough that Disney might hear us and consider doing that?



Why they don't just drop the reservation system at this point is actually very odd.

They don't have the staff and they are providing a garbage experience either way, so what's it matter?


----------



## Robbie Cottam

New Mouse said:


> Actually it does....that's what by standard definition an AP is.


then you also have not read the rules.
Ap passes do not included special events, or private events, 
They also require, since the parks reopen post covid, that you have a reservation.


----------



## New Mouse

Robbie Cottam said:


> then you also have not read the rules.
> Ap passes do not included special events, or private events,
> They also require, since the parks reopen post covid, that you have a reservation.



Disney requires it.  No one else requires it.

Again, by standard accepted definition, an annual pass allows unlimited admission minus stated black out dates.

I can't sell you a Ferrari and then tell you in the fine print that we will replace the engine with a Volkswagen when we feel like it.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

New Mouse said:


> Disney requires it.  No one else requires it.
> 
> Again, by standard accepted definition, an annual pass allows unlimited admission minus stated black out dates.
> 
> I can't sell you a Ferrari and then tell you in the fine print that we will replace the engine with a Volkswagen when we feel like it.


That is true, but when you buy the sign the contract to buy a used F40 you don’t get to ***** that is is not an Enzo… You sign know what that contract says before you buy it.

oh and btw :

2022 Calendar-Year Discounts​Universal Orlando Resort Passholder benefits and discounts are valid Jan. 1 – Dec. 31, 2022, unless otherwise noted. Benefits and discounts listed below are subject to availability and to change without notice.

universal has the same restriction but please go live in your woke world


----------



## New Mouse

Universal doesn't have a park reservation system?   Park admission isn't considered an ancillary benefit.   It's considered the product.    Come on back to the world of common sense.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

New Mouse said:


> Universal doesn't have a park reservation system?   Park admission isn't considered an ancillary benefit.   It's considered the product.    Come on back to the world of common sense.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Funny I was going to say the same thing about you,  but how about we wait to see what happen with this case, first.


----------



## New Mouse

Robbie Cottam said:


> Funny I was going to say the same thing about you,  but how about we wait to see what happen with this case, first.





Robbie Cottam said:


> Funny I was going to say the same thing about you,  but how about we wait to see what happen with this case, first.




We can but the fact Disney is not selling APs at the moment because of this says all you really need to know about what their legal team thinks.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

New Mouse said:


> We can but the fact Disney is not selling APs at the moment because of this says all you really need to know about what their legal team thinks.


ASSUME


----------



## New Mouse

Robbie Cottam said:


> ASSUME



On Disneys current quest for more money in spite of literally every single guest experience failure, they aren't gonna back off sales unless someone told them they have to.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Ok, like I have said a few times, I will wait to see what happens…


----------



## Mexacajun

What is an email that I can send my request in to add back APs? I know it won’t matter but I want to send it anyway. I would even be for an AP that is only tied to resort stays. Just need something!


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Guest.services@disneyworld.com


----------



## CarolMN

I don't want to shut this thread down.    

Some of you please take a deep breath and move on.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> As you said, these are early days.  My Pacer subscription is not active, so I cannot read Judge Carter’s April 6, 2022 order.  I do not want to pay for it just to answer someone who is … well anyway.  That is futile.  So let’s refocus to see if we can observe some palpable recent change in Disney’s handling of park reservations for passholders since April 6th.  I know I did see a change towards prioritizing passholder access starting November 24th.  I know conduct of a defendant correcting tortious acts cannot be admitted in evidence to prove the tort, but we are not in court.  It may help us see which way they are going now.
> 
> I am kind of conflicted by this case and the manipulation of reservations to throttle passholders.  I want Disney to be ok because I love Disney World etc like everybody else.  But using reservations to surreptitiously define availability and throttle passholders is quite another thing.  I would vote to drop the reservation system and move on, but I guess I do not get a vote.  Is there any place where we can be noisy enough that Disney might hear us and consider doing that?



Or, if they want to keep the reservation system intact, be sure to simply add more spots when both buckets fill up?  The only thing I know is that it would be nice to see things back soon for those that need and want them!!!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Isamar

You can see the filings in the lawsuit at this link:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docke...d_before=&entry_gte=&entry_lte=&order_by=desc

All filings are listed but only some can be opened (you’d have to pay to get the others). 

The judge’s reasons & decision on Disney’s motion to dismiss the claims is at document #35. As some have already noted here, he denied the motion on some claims (ie. did not dismiss the plaintiff’s claims) and allowed the motion on others (ie. he dismissed some claims).


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Oh.  The website for new passes is back online and nothing changed.  . Oh well.


I’m 4 days away from being able to renew at current prices….


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Ok.  I will just say this, but I am not going into it further or go back and forth explaining to anyone.  The Judge denied the motion to dismiss the breach of contract claim and some others.  (Some claims were dismissed because Plaintiff agreed to dismiss them, but nothing significant to this post.  Some were dismissed with the right to redraft the claim and file it again — subject to a future motion for dismissal.  Also not discussed in this post.). The claims that were the heart of the lawsuit, as I see it, survived the motion to dismiss.
> 
> One of the o surviving claims was the breach of contract.  The issue is whether the term “unavailable” is ambiguous (basically same as or different from park capacity).  The issue of whether an ambiguity exists for the purpose of a dismissal motion is a question of law; which means the Judge decides it at that point.  Judge Carter decided there is an ambiguity.
> 
> Then, in the trial, the issue of whether there is an ambiguity that results in breach of contract or misleading advertising or whatever becomes a question of fact for a jury to decide.  So, if a later jury also decides there is an ambiguity, then the rule of law is the ambiguity is construed against the drafter; Disney.
> 
> In this case, Disney wrote the contract so an ambiguity would be against Disney when interpreting contract language:  1. Unavailability is NOT like capacity — cannot use reservations to block passholders if capacity is not met and there is availability for ticket holders, or 2.  Unavailability just means unavailable whether for park capacity or for any reason, even one Disney solely controls.  Disney is arguing the second position and the Judge wrote Disney had not provided a positive definition on that point so there was ambiguity for purposes of the dismissal motion.
> 
> Whether Disney can make a positive definition distinction can later would go to the issue whether there are facts upon which a jury could decide in favor of Disney.  ( A jury has to find facts first to support their decision.).
> 
> Plaintiff has until close of business on May 6th to rewrite and refile the claims that were dismissed without prejudice.
> 
> That is the nutshell version as I see it. I think Judge Carter did a really good job of winnowing the filed claims to the viable claims and relevant issues at this stage.  Early days still.



I just read it and I agree that two of the main issues were allowed to continue.  It is pretty simple. Sell APs and tickets...set a number to start and adjust as you go along, but in all cases, tickets and AP holders are either all blocked, or all eligible to try for the ones left.

The problem I see at this point is whether Disney can change things up in the language of the ticket (if they want control) without it being seen as an admission that wording was indeed not clear.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Great!  Another magical year for you.  I assume you will renew?
> 
> I am watching daily because  I want to upgrade.  Cannot yet. I used to have Platinum plus.  Then we moved far away and I dropped it.  Then we moved back and I got Pixie, but I want Incredi-Pass.  If they start sales I will go in person to Disney Springs and upgrade or just buy Incredi-Pass (or top tier) and abandon Pixie.   Disney might change prices and terms and conditions.  I really enjoyed holidays in the parks and now I would have to buy tickets.
> 
> That raises a question.  I know if I have not activated Pixie I can upgrade online.  If I have activated I have to call or do it in person and my upgraded pass will have the same start date as the activation date on my Pixie.  I can add photos or water parks with the same retro to activation date.  That much I learned from the CM on the Passholder line.  But I forgot to ask; if my MDE shows I have a pass, will it allow me to buy two more new annual (Incredi-Passes) for DH (linked) when they go on sale as new annual passes ti the public?  In other words, I would just abandon the remainder of the Pixie passes.  But if I am blocked from buying two new passes before my renewal window because I already have passes assigned to a specific person, then that is a problem for me.



In the past, you could buy new vouchers no matter what else you had.  So, assuming rules don't change, you can buy you and DH an Incredi-pass voucher regardless of what you have for the Pixie Pass.

Now, those vouchers must be activated in a year's time...that was a change in 2021 from year's prior...

What they won't allow you to do is keep both as top pass...so they will simply rearrange the Incredi pass to be used first and let the other one just expire....well, that is how it should work....


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Sandisw said:


> The problem I see at this point is whether Disney can change things up in the language of the ticket (if they want control) without it being seen as an admission that wording was indeed not clear.


I think they're really in a bind here.  I think the only real options they have are:
1.  Get rid of the reservation system for everyone;
2.  Get rid of different buckets for different classes (ap holders versus day ticket holders), and put everyone on an equal footing; or
3.  Vastly change the Annual Passes so that they're not really annual passes as we know them anymore, and it's clear that they are not annual passes.  

Any middle ground where they try to sell what they purport to be "annual passes," and then loophole their way into blocking AP holders on days when they want to sell more day passes are going to land them exactly where they are now.  As was indicated earlier in this thread, you can't sell a ferrari and then hide in the fine print that It's actually a dodge that you're just calling a ferrari.


Ms Bibbidi said:


> Great! Another magical year for you. I assume you will renew?



Yes, definitely.  I wouldn't want to risk being shut out.  I'm worried about losing the opportunity to renew into the current pass structure sometime in the next four days, it's nail-biting


----------



## Sandisw

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> I think they're really in a bind here.  I think the only real options they have are:
> 1.  Get rid of the reservation system for everyone;
> 2.  Get rid of different buckets for different classes (ap holders versus day ticket holders), and put everyone on an equal footing; or
> 3.  Vastly change the Annual Passes so that they're not really annual passes as we know them anymore, and it's clear that they are not annual passes.
> 
> Any middle ground where they try to sell what they purport to be "annual passes," and then loophole their way into blocking AP holders on days when they want to sell more day passes are going to land them exactly where they are now.  As was indicated earlier in this thread, you can't sell a ferrari and then hide in the fine print that It's actually a dodge that you're just calling a ferrari.
> 
> 
> Yes, definitely.  I wouldn't want to risk being shut out.  I'm worried about losing the opportunity to renew into the current pass structure sometime in the next four days, it's nail-biting



As I mentioned, they could keep it all the same except adjusting the buckets behind the scenes so that if the AP bucket is close to full but tickets bucket is not, adjust. 

I get the different buckets and I think it’s okay to keep them so each type of ticket holder has spots without the other taking majority.  

But, since Disney controls those, they have the power yo adjust and combine when things get down to a level suggesting capacity limits will be reached. 

For all we know, they are doing it now and it’s been posted it very well may be. 

I do agree we may be in for some different type of ticket that is not called an AP but allows X admissions within the year.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Sandisw said:


> As I mentioned, they could keep it all the same except adjusting the buckets behind the scenes so that if the AP bucket is close to full but tickets bucket is not, adjust.
> 
> I get the different buckets and I think it’s okay to keep them so each type of ticket holder has spots without the other taking majority.
> 
> But, since Disney controls those, they have the power yo adjust and combine when things get down to a level suggesting capacity limits will be reached.
> 
> For all we know, they are doing it now and it’s been posted it very well may be.
> 
> I do agree we may be in for some different type of ticket that is not called an AP but allows X admissions within the year.


I don’t understand… if they are going to adjust the buckets when needed, why have the buckets in the first place?

I HATE the reservation system.


----------



## Sandisw

Maistre Gracey said:


> I don’t understand… if they are going to adjust the buckets when needed, why have the buckets in the first place?
> 
> I HATE the reservation system.



Adjust between the two. For example, you have 30k spots that day. 15k to each bucket so that neither ticket holder gets shut out too quickly.

If you notice that the ticket bucket is going down faster, then you move spots from AP bucket but maintain that initial 30k. And do the same if AP is going faster.

If you get down to say 5k spots left, then it’s first come first serve.

Reservations don’t bother me so if they go away, fine..if they stay, fine.


----------



## keishashadow

CarolMN said:


> So anyone who has an Incredipass or Sorcerers pass now is potentially part of the class?  That's interesting.
> 
> Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts.   Much appreciated.


Believe you always have option to opt out of any class action lawsuit

Renewed one of family’s APs yesterday.  Wanted to downgrade from incredipass to sorcerer DVC disc, so had to call DVC MS

Did so around 3:30 pm…only a 5 min wait!!!

Then the fun started

Told too early, 61 days prior to expiry

Since a trip on books including those dates explained I thot I could renew

Told no Again

Asked for supervisor to be consulted

After 20 min hold, all good.  

CM very apologetic. Stated most working from home & wait times up the chain are increasing


----------



## Brian Noble

I'm not as convinced that this bus is being driven by the CA lawsuit, because _some_ APs are being sold on both coasts, but inventory buckets are still separate (and in Anaheim, still biased to day guests AFAICT).


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


----------



## WilsonFlyer

It wouldn't surprise me to see APs at the FL parks limited to FL residents and DVC owners when they bring them back. I hadn't really thought about it until now, but that addresses a lot of problems in one neat fix. Popular? Probably not, but also probably not as negatively impactful overall as some other answers might be if you stop and think about it.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Disney mac

Honestly, as long as we flock like loyal little lemmings to use our DVC points, they don’t have to care.  Lawsuits or not, until the next recession, Disney doesn’t care about anything we say or do as long as we donate money to Bonus for the executives…


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> As I mentioned, they could keep it all the same except adjusting the buckets behind the scenes so that if the AP bucket is close to full but tickets bucket is not, adjust.
> 
> I get the different buckets and I think it’s okay to keep them so each type of ticket holder has spots without the other taking majority.
> 
> But, since Disney controls those, they have the power yo adjust and combine when things get down to a level suggesting capacity limits will be reached.
> 
> For all we know, they are doing it now and it’s been posted it very well may be.
> 
> I do agree we may be in for some different type of ticket that is not called an AP but allows X admissions within the year.


I think we should call them.  Non expiring multi day tickets.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> I think we should call them.  Non expiring multi day tickets.



I didn’t use that phrase because those never expired.

I am suggesting something that can be used over multi trips within an expiration of one year like an AP

But yes, similar to what they had!


----------



## eandt

Robbie Cottam said:


> L
> 
> If that is the case, then the trial will not last very long!


If that is the case there will be no trial, it will just be a matter of what the terms of the settlement will be.


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## keishashadow

WilsonFlyer said:


> It wouldn't surprise me to see APs at the FL parks limited to FL residents and DVC owners when they bring them back. I hadn't really thought about it until now, but that addresses a lot of problems in one neat fix. Popular? Probably not, but also probably not as negatively impactful overall as some other answers might be if you stop and think about it.


hmm…being ‘guaranteed’ the ability to buy APs might be a way to churn sales for DVC going forward…naturally, buy in at a higher rate that we are now seeing.  As long as they grandfather the rest of us in, I could live with it.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## greeneyedchick

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes, me too.  Every time I hear a rumor that the reservation system might be ended, I get obsessive about tracking down the facts behind the rumor.  So far, no credible facts or sources.
> 
> Those who stay in qualifying hotels can use the reservation system and schedule way ahead for their hotels, dining and park reservations.  It is a whole trip package.  If scheduling weeks or months in advance, they can be pretty sure they will get access to any park they want.  Those reservations are not even counted against their allocated passholder reservations.
> 
> But, for a local who lives very close by and goes home after a day at the parks, it means we are always limited to the number of reservations in our pass and cannot refresh them until we have attended the park.  So, if I have 3 days, I cannot pick out 3 days several months in the future.  Like one each in summer, late fall and next January.  When events or concerts come up, I cannot do that.  If I reserve way in advance, I cannot go until the first day comes and I attend the park.  All the in-between time is dead.  So, I have to keep my reservations for the immediate future -- because anything else shuts me out of the parks for a huge percentage of the year.  I have to hope other ticketed guests and passholders staying on property have left some reservations for very short term scheduling -- like same day or in a few days.  Disney allows every other type of guest to effectively block out the local passholder seeking to make use of their annual pass.
> 
> I have heard Chapek is a huge bean counter.  He loves data and numbers.  So, he loves reservations because the reservations produces a data rich environment for him.  He is tone deaf to what reservations and Genie Plus or ILL do to the park experience.  He does not care.  Supposedly the data helps with staffing the parks, evening out the crowds and telling them when the passholders attend.  But, the social effect is not equally important to them.  So, he gets his data by having the reservation system.
> 
> People are aware of Chapek's comment about the long distance guest being more profitable than passholders.  But they are not aware of the immense hurdles the reservation system has imposed on the local passholders who are blocked out so often and cannot plan far in advance because it eats the paltry few days they can hold as a reservation.  It is apparent Disney very much dislikes local guests with annual passes.  If they could think of another roadblock, he would implement it.  There is a reason the Pixie is $399.  With just 3 days, limited to weekdays, no holidays and short terms park availability, it is nearly worthless compared to how I was able to use annual passes prior to the reservation system.
> 
> Also, if you think we have it bad, park access is supposed to be part of the compensation package for Disney employees.  They have been almost completely locked out.  Their "bucket" is so restricted there is a rumor it only has 10 spots per day!  But, with Disney stock tanking, $114.29 as I write this, Chapek is not going to change his behavior in favor of what he perceives as less profitable guests.


I keep hearing that reservations give Disney the data. As someone who works in IT, I don't understand why Disney doesn't already have this data. They know when each person swipes into a park. They know how many people are staying on property. They should have historical data as to the percentage of people staying on and off property. They could have easily been capturing this data for years and using it to predict their busiest times. Even other tourist websites have some of this data that they use to compile their crow calendars. How does Disney not already know how many people are coming to the parks and which parks they are going to? 

Now requiring people to tap into their reserved park before park hopping to any other park (which is an unknown for Disney), they are actually screwing the up their data because a lot of  people are swiping into one park without any intention of spending time in that park, just so that they can park hop to the place they really wanted to go later in the day. Disney should have the data of where everyone park hops to, too. The argument that they need reservations in order to staff the parks is nonsense. From what I've seen, all parks are crowded every day and should be staffed to the max to give people the best chance at a positive park experience. They don't need park reservations to tell them that.


----------



## eandt

greeneyedchick said:


> I keep hearing that reservations give Disney the data. As someone who works in IT, I don't understand why Disney doesn't already have this data. They know when each person swipes into a park. They know how many people are staying on property. They should have historical data as to the percentage of people staying on and off property. They could have easily been capturing this data for years and using it to predict their busiest times. Even other tourist websites have some of this data that they use to compile their crow calendars. How does Disney not already know how many people are coming to the parks and which parks they are going to?
> 
> Now requiring people to tap into their reserved park before park hopping to any other park (which is an unknown for Disney), they are actually screwing the up their data because a lot of  people are swiping into one park without any intention of spending time in that park, just so that they can park hop to the place they really wanted to go later in the day. Disney should have the data of where everyone park hops to, too. The argument that they need reservations in order to staff the parks is nonsense. From what I've seen, all parks are crowded every day and should be staffed to the max to give people the best chance at a positive park experience. They don't need park reservations to tell them that.


Agree it's not like Disney hasn't been doing this for like 50 years ........... the reservation system is bs, might it save them a few employees here or there maybe but all of this historical data should already exist and if it doesn't then head's should have rolled long ago.


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## AnnaKristoff2013

eandt said:


> If that is the case there will be no trial, it will just be a matter of what the terms of the settlement will be.


The class representative will get some money, the lawyers will get a lot of money, the rest of us will get a $15 coupon for two free blue milks at Galaxy’s Edge.  On the plus side, it will force Disney not to do this again.


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## Robbie Cottam

eandt said:


> If that is the case there will be no trial, it will just be a matter of what the terms of the settlement will be.


yet, I have heard no talk of settlement, and the judge dismissed 4 or 5 parts of the compliant….


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> yet, I have heard no talk of settlement, and the judge dismissed 4 or 5 parts of the compliant….


You would not hear talk of settlement, until the case is settled.  And the lack of importance of the specific dismissed counts has already been explained.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Robbie Cottam

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> You would not hear talk of settlement, until the case is settled.  And the lack of importance of the specific dismissed counts has already been explained.


Explained by who…


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Robbie Cottam said:


> Explained by who…


By @Ms Bibbidi


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## Sandisw

Please lets not argue about the lawsuit.  All we know at this point is that it could be related to the lack of AP sales right now.


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## Robbie Cottam

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> By @Ms Bibbidi


and her cv


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## nuhusky123

A recession may be the best thing to happen to pass holders as paradoxical as that may sound

as Disney stock plummets, and the mouse looks for revenue they may have to reinstate annual passes to prop up Q3. Q2 won’t be great and investors will pay more attention to Disney+ than park revenue but if Disney+ starts to falter Disney will look at their parks to prop up the stock price

however if the recession hits hard and discretionary spending goes down, ie day ticket sales decrease annual passes are a great way to shore up the books

heres to a bear market

*edit for what it’s worth I think q2 will be a good one for Disney. All eyes on q3 now


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## Maistre Gracey

Probably means nothing, but I just got an email for a chance to win two incredi-passes. 
The email was actually from my electric company, not Disney. Not sure if they have some sort of corporate relationship, but it does show that Disney is not completely done with AP’s.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## nuhusky123

Until Disney+ starts to miss expectations Disney stock will continue to do well and propping up the stock with ap sales won’t be necessary 

q3 will be key IMO


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## Robbie Cottam

nuhusky123 said:


> Until Disney+ starts to miss expectations Disney stock will continue to do well and propping up the stock with ap sales won’t be necessary
> 
> q3 will be key IMO


DIS stock was down 2.29 percent today down almost 90 dollars in the last year.
is that your definition of “doing well”.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## CarolMN

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Having an annual pass in your possession is one thing. Being able to actually use it is a whole 'nother story.


That will make things for DVC Members very difficult unless they are allowed to book park reservations from the resort bucket when they stay on site.  (Believe that is currently the case in Florida, at least).  If not, it will make the DVC annual passes perk virtually worthless as a sales tool for DVD.   

Those with the most to lose here are the locals.    I hope Disney finds a way to solve this without alienating a large portion of its customer base.


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## Robbie Cottam

CarolMN said:


> That will make things for DVC Members very difficult unless they are allowed to book park reservations from the resort bucket when they stay on site.  (Believe that is currently the case in Florida, at least).  If not, it will make the DVC annual passes perk virtually worthless as a sales tool for DVD.
> 
> Those with the most to lose here are the locals.    I hope Disney finds a way to solve this without alienating a large portion of its customer base.


I was able to book my Parties AP without any issue for an upcoming 10 day stay.
only issue was one of the annual passes expires during the stay.. and can’t be renewed yet…. They offered to let me buy cash ticket and upgrade them to the AP when we are in the renal window….. waiting to see if that works


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## DeeBee3

Normally I never would think about an AP, but now that travel has opened back up and we are looking to "make up for lost time," this would have been the year to get one. Took a trip already - only 2 days to avoid more costs. Going again around Christmas and plan to do all the parks. The price is astronomical. Also was thinking about a future summer trip in 2023. It's just nuts. All that makes no sense if I pay out of pocket for tickets.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## nuhusky123

Robbie Cottam said:


> DIS stock was down 2.29 percent today down almost 90 dollars in the last year.
> is that your definition of “do well”.


The market as a whole is down and will continue to slide but dis exceeded expectations so yeah dis had a good q2 especially given Disney+ crushed subscriber numbers


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## Robbie Cottam

They may have had a good quarter, but the stock is not doing well.

Over the last year it is way down….


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## nuhusky123

Robbie Cottam said:


> They may have had a good quarter, but the stock is not doing well.
> 
> Over the last year it is way down….


if you find anyone up on the year let my 401k know so they can buy in


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## Robbie Cottam

nuhusky123 said:


> if you find anyone up on the year let my 401k know so they can buy in


So what you are saying is not only is Disney stock not doing well but no stock is doing well…. 

That’s kinda like saying, “ everyone else was doing so I though it was ok”


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## nuhusky123

Robbie Cottam said:


> So what you are saying is not only is Disney stock not doing well but no stock is doing well….
> 
> That’s kinda like saying, “ everyone else was doing so I though it was ok”


Huh?

disney q2 was a good quarter

the entire market is down

most companies regardless of q1 q2 results are down for the year. Oil is one of the few exceptions

what part of these facts is false?


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## Robbie Cottam

nuhusky123 said:


> Huh?
> 
> disney q2 was a good quarter
> 
> the entire market is down
> 
> most companies regardless of q1 q2 results are down for the year. Oil is one of the few exceptions
> 
> what part of these facts is false?


None of the facts are false, the comment I questioned was that the Disney “stock is doing well”…..

regardless, of what metric you use the stock is not doing well.
just because all stocks are not doing well, doesn't mean you can claim there stock is doing well.   You can’t.

i don’t care how good the quarter was, the stock is down.  Down as much as Disney’s stock is,  in my book. Is not doing well….

that’s all


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## New Mouse

nuhusky123 said:


> if you find anyone up on the year let my 401k know so they can buy in



They are down almost 50%   the stock market isn't just about quarterly performance.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I assumed in our discussions when AP sales would return that one factor was high crowd levels that were impacting park capacity.  I was under the impression that capacity was being set by Disney at some level marginally below the maximum crowd level for safety requirements, like maybe 80% or 90%.  I believed that park reservation unavailability was being posted when those spaces had been reserved.  I also thought that once capacity was raised (by adding new venues etc) that there would be more reservations and more room for passholders.  It appears I was wrong on just about everything.
> 
> There is a very interesting article based on a statistician's findings comparing crowd levels and park sell-out status.  There is NOT a direct correlation.  Surprised me! https://touringplans.com/blog/what-crowd-levels-are-park-pass-sell-outs-at-disney-world/


Yeah, they are definitely dynamically scaling the park reservations.  If you look at touringplans historical data there are days that are as low as crowd level 5 that have been sell-outs.   I’d guess they’re saving a lot of money by not having to do last minute staffing changes.  They just set the cap for any given day at what they think they will have, and if they sell out,  they don’t bother to staff up further for that day thus avoiding potential overtime issues, etc.  It has the side benefit of forcing people to do their park reservations months in advance instead of waiting until the last minute, even for seasons that are not crowded.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

CarolMN said:


> That will make things for DVC Members very difficult unless they are allowed to book park reservations from the resort bucket when they stay on site.  (Believe that is currently the case in Florida, at least).  If not, it will make the DVC annual passes perk virtually worthless as a sales tool for DVD.
> 
> Those with the most to lose here are the locals.    I hope Disney finds a way to solve this without alienating a large portion of its customer base.


I don’t think there really is a separate “resort” bucket anymore.  It’s a category you can pick, but it always mirrors your ticket type.  (If you are a ticket holder your resort availability mirrors the day ticket availability.  If you are an AP holder your resort availability mirrors the AP availability.)

I also don’t think current Disney cares about DVC owners any more then they care about AP holders.  Similar to the AP, once they’ve sold you the DVC ownership they don’t really care if you use it or not.  They’ve already made their money, and I’d bet they consider DVC owners as a way less profitable category of resort guests in the same way they consider AP holders to be a way less profitable category of ticket holders.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

nuhusky123 said:


> The market as a whole is down and will continue to slide but dis exceeded expectations so yeah dis had a good q2 especially given Disney+ crushed subscriber numbers


DIS has lost stock price at a far greater rate than the market in general.  DIS is currently the worst or second-worst performing stock in the DOW index.


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## DeeBee3

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes.  They are calling it "revenge travel" and it is a surge in post-covid travel.  It is one of the reasons the attendance at Disney World is so high.  It is one of the reasons Disney stopped selling annual passes; because people doing the travel surge are willing to do the trip anyway and pay the ticket prices without an annual pass.



Yes, I have heard about the phenomenon. Unfortunately, now that we have actual time to look at our DVC situation, we realize that instead of every other year, we will probably go once a year. Normally a pass would not be worth it (unless it was the old gold pass), but a year like this one, a pass would have been nice. 

Just makes us do less park days which upsets me but there is plenty to do outside of the parks. Just a "loss" for Disney in terms of people like me. However, they still make tons of money from the day tickets and all of us shopping and dining outside of the parks.

Looks like there is no loss for Disney in financial terms, just in customer satisfaction.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I was reading about DVC availability yesterday and something I read supports what Anna just said.  I do not know these underlying facts personally, but if your experience matches, this could be concerning for DVC owners.
> 
> There is still a backlog of unused points from the period when the pandemic suppressed travel.  DVC reservations are hard to find, particularly for studios.  More owners are renting excess points and sometimes because of a lack of AP sales.  Disney is the number one renter of DVC points.  They rent the points and then sell them as a hotel room for a profit?
> 
> Disney does not care who occupies the room; an owner or a casual ticketed guest.  In fact, the ticketed guest spends more in the parks.
> 
> If my facts are correct, then as to DVC owners it is more profitable for Disney to withhold annual pass sales.  Another reason to suppress sales of APs in addition to throttling the local Passholder’s access to park reservations.
> 
> Disney has made it very clear that they love park reservations, Genie+ and ILLs.  They made no mention of passholders but repeatedly said these things gave them the right mix of guests.  They said parks performance is outstanding.  They said per capital (per guest) spending is up 40% over 2019 (before park reservations).  Statistically, it takes a lot of ticketed guests paying higher rates to counter a lower spending annual passholder.    Do the math.  If 40% is the increase, out of 58 million guests per year, how many are passholders and how many have to be ticketed.  It is a whopping imbalance!  So, the number of annual passholders has to be much lower than in 2019 when the daily mix was about 1/3rd.  Park reservations and controlling the buckets is how they do it; not blockout calendars.  Just sayin’.



Just to clarify for the rooms from DVC that Disney gets to sell for cash.  Some come from points that Disney owners...they follow the same booing rules as the rest of us when using their points.

Any DVC owner who decided to trade out of the system for things like cruises, ABD, etc., take a room with them for Disney to sell for cash to pay those other divisions for the trade.

Rooms not booked 60 days from check in are sent to Disney to sell for cash to create breakage income.  Owners receive some of that income and every resort reaches their cap every year.  DVC can also anticipate rooms that might be there and offer them ahead of the 60 days.

There is really no way to know exactly where those rooms that you see for cash come from.  But, they can't just take DVC rooms from owners and sell


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## CraigInPA

Disney management feels they don't need to sell AP's at this time because the number of people coming to the parks and buying day tickets is keeping the gate count up. If attendance starts to wane, you'll see a return to AP's, whether or not the CA lawsuit is filed. It's all about key performance metrics, and you can be sure that the number of people who pass through the gates is a key performance indicator.

I was somewhat disheartened to heard that they're enamored of Genie+ and iLL. They see it as a way to prop up the admission revenue, which means it's likely going to stick around.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## AnnaKristoff2013

CraigInPA said:


> I was somewhat disheartened to heard that they're enamored of Genie+ and iLL. They see it as a way to prop up the admission revenue, which means it's likely going to stick around.


It's definitely going to stick around.  The best we can hope for is that they fix some of the issues that severely diminish guest satisfaction without actually making Disney any more money, those issues being, in no particular order:

1.  That you can purchase an ILL for a certain time and the system changes the time on you by the time you check out, often by multiple hours;
2.  That you have to wake up at 6:45 am every morning of your vacation to get the best ILL$ and Genie+ selections;
3.  That you can't modify a selection once picked.


Changing those three things wouldn't cost DIsney anything in terms of profitability and the first two at least would probably vastly improve guest satisfaction, so I hold out hope that they at least tinker with that.  But they are never abandoning the system as a whole given how much money they are making off it.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## MalorieA

I’ll be watching closely. Had 5 trips planned starting November 2022  assuming that APs would be resuming. We bought a DVC add on contract assuming that APs would be resuming…in order to include family and take additional short trips. If APs don’t come back we’ll be renting points and doing Aulani instead. Wanted to take advantage of the time when I have one kid under 3. But no way will we pay for park tickets for every single trip


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## dvc lover 1970

We have the AP but it's blocked out for Christmas and Thanksgiving. Will visit universal then but stay in our dvc resort


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## DL1WDW2

Make sure you check the Capacity Hotline for Universal before you drive all that way…
last year it was 407-8178317


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## AnnaKristoff2013

https://insidethemagic.net/2022/05/magic-key-lawsuit-disneyland-moves-forward-rwb1/


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## nuhusky123

Walmart and target have posted horrible q2 results, leading indicators consumer spending on high ticket items are slowing down. if consumers are not buying TVs I can’t see the wave of spending on Disney vacations at crazy prices continuing

perhaps I’m wrong And people are willing to throw money at Disney but I think Disney is in for a bad q3

we are going to be in a full recession if not already. Disney is way overpriced in terms of hotel and ticket costs

we might start seeing a change in practices if we have more days where stocks drop 4%, especially since I don’t think we are anywhere near bottom


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Flynn's Gal

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Disney started AP sales in 1982.  Those were tough economic times too.


Could that possibly be a reason why they started selling APs then?


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## luckyman_apd

I'm with some of the others. We have pooled our points to go multiple trips with an AP because the park tickets have been ridiculously expensive for multiple trips in a year. It's kinda my line in the sand too. For what I'm about to pay for 7 days in regular tickets...an AP is a no brainer. This is going to be our last hurrah for parks. Banking and borrowing the next 3 years of points for a Hawaii trip and we have a few days of old Non expiration tickets to use. But in 3-4 years when I have a loaded contract.. anything could happen...but I could sell for far more  more than I paid..and I got 10+ years of use out of it. It always amazes me how corporations forget their core customers until times are rough for them then they lean on them...and totally ignore them when times are good. I know "we only paid for a room" in the contract...but from 2007-2011 when things were rough for Disney...who kept the parks afloat? The loads of DVC members that kept visiting and spending money when the rest of the travelers stopped coming.


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## DeeBee3

nuhusky123 said:


> Walmart and target have posted horrible q2 results, leading indicators consumer spending on high ticket items are slowing down. if consumers are not buying TVs I can’t see the wave of spending on Disney vacations at crazy prices continuing
> 
> perhaps I’m wrong And people are willing to throw money at Disney but I think Disney is in for a bad q3
> 
> we are going to be in a full recession if not already. Disney is way overpriced in terms of hotel and ticket costs
> 
> we might start seeing a change in practices if we have more days where stocks drop 4%, especially since I don’t think we are anywhere near bottom


I liked your post begrudgingly because I sadly think we are nowhere near bottom. Fun times are not in store.


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## keishashadow

luckyman_apd said:


> but from 2007-2011 when things were rough for Disney...who kept the parks afloat? The loads of DVC members that kept visiting and spending money when the rest of the travelers stopped coming.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## CarolMN

@Ms Bibbidi , thanks for your posts.  I find them thought-provoking, especially because I am not a lawyer and do not think like one.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Another blogger has predicted AP sales will not return until early 2023.  However, his rationale is basically park crowding, management of crowds and employees and the 40% increase in spending per visitor.  Not much consideration of the litigation.  He also predicted the park reservation system, which is clearly the driver for controlling the mix of daily ticket guests would be retired sometime in the future — maybe 2024 or 2025.
> 
> So I was considering his rationale and the new “day-of-visit” policy for Genie+. iit occurred to me that even though it appears Disney wants to keep the park reservation system, they might very well be in the position that they have to keep it while the litigation in California is pending.  While their “wanting” to keep it might currently be explained as “making hay while the sun shines” as we approach a recession, they may be stuck with it during the litigation.
> 
> Getting rid of the park reservation system could have a huge impact on that litigation.  What Disney is fighting for is the right to control park access to passholders in favor of more profitable day ticket guests and so they can steer passholders into less profitable times and less crowded parks.  In other words, space-available.  In sort, Disney wants to decide the where and when a passholder accesses the parks.  They apparently do not care about the social and emotional negativity this creates for the individual passholder.  They are fighting for the creation of a management tool — who decides when a passholder guest will come and to which park — Disney management or the individual passholder guest?  That is the issue.
> 
> They must keep the park reservation system while the litigation persists.  They cannot settle on that issue if there is any court order entering the settlement as a judgment because then they would forever lose the right to deploy that management tool.  They would be limited to the advertised blackout calendar sold.  Disney does not want to lose the right to make the choice.  So, again, I came to the tentative conclusion that we remain in status quo while that litigation goes on.  Interestingly, they are still limiting it to the California parks and have not yet overtly swept the Florida passholders into the litigation.  But clearly, the driving issue applies both places.  Binding result?  Maybe, maybe not.  That is another post.


I prefer your posts on this topic to any blogger’s. I have no idea what will happen but reading your thoughts is always enjoyable. Thanks for sharing your insights with us.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Thank you.  Sometimes I get too wordy or there is too much legal jargon.  I am also aware I am not always right.  Nobody can be when predicting the future.



I love the thought process and how each can impact the other.  They just make sense to give us much to think about as to why they may make decisions they make.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK Mouseketeers.  Buckle your seatbelts!  This NEW AP Sales ride may be about to launch.
> 
> Backstory first:
> In the lawsuit:
> Plaintiff filed a Second Amended Complaint on May 10th.
> Defendant, Disney, filed an Answer to it on May 20th.  (Note they did not file a motion to dismiss it.)
> So, I am thinking Plaintiff may have strengthened their case and potentially the earlier claims that were dismissed without prejudice are back in litigation (meaning they could re-draft those causes of action and file them again.)  IF the Plaintiff's case appears stronger, Disney may be changing tactics with regard to annual passes.
> 
> Guess what!  Today, Disney stopped selling ALL new Magic Keys (annual passes) for DLR.  The top two tiers showed sold out.  Now, they are not selling any new Magic Keys.
> 
> Instead, for Southern California residents only, Disney has launched two new options:
> 1.  A 3 day - 1 park pass for $83 per day - Monday through Thursday.   *Can be used on nonconsecutive days and valid any time between June 13th and September 15th.*
> 2.  A 3 day - 1 park pass for $100 per day - Any day of the week.  *Can be used on nonconsecutive days and valid any time between June 13th and September 15th.*
> Both tickets have a park hopper add on option for an additional $60 per day.
> 
> Here's the caveat language:  "Theme park reservations are limited, subject to availability and not guaranteed. Certain parks, attractions, restaurants, experiences, services and offerings may be modified or unavailable, limited in capacity and subject to limited availability or even closure. Park admission and offerings are not guaranteed."
> 
> Several items noteworthy on this.
> 
> If this is a forerunner for Disney World, then we can expect all new sales of annual passes in their current form to be terminated.
> There is no word that renewals have changed.  So, if anybody is eligible for and wants a Pixie Pass -- GET IT NOW!  LIKE TODAY!
> Disney appears to realize that they can set a floor on the dollar amount for a gate admission.  For DLR, that is $83 per day plus tax.
> Standard tickets are still 1-5 day tickets that must be used within 13 days of first use.  Basically, still a "per trip" based ticket.
> By classifying the new Southern California tickets with a "seasonal" type of expiration, it the seasonal ticket holder on an equal footing with other ticketed guests.  It helps gut the second class citizen status of the passholder.
> *We may be looking at the start of a one-bucket system, that still requires park reservations.*  I think this is a trial period.
> The trial period might last until about September 15th.
> The language for Disney World annual passes still references being able to renew.  Not guaranteed, but it has not changed.
> Remember, Disney re-started DLR  Magic Keys in August 2021, so this was done right before the vast majority of those will come up for renewal 60 days before -- in June.
> 
> For Disney World, the Incredi-pass, Sorcerer, Pirate and Pixie started selling September 8, 2021.  So the earliest passes would expire September 7, 2022 and 60 days before renewal would be July 9, 2022.  WDW Timing:  IF Disney acts consistently with today's announcement ahead of renewals of Magic Keys, then our announcement would come the first week of July -- probably few days after the 4th of July.
> 
> The Disney Q3 2022 Earnings Report quarter will end about July 2nd with a report about August 11th.  Because of when Disney announced and restarted sales last year around August 4th, this is when I thought we might see some new pass announced this year, if they were not going to wait for litigation.  I had forgotten to factor in the 60 days in advance for renewals.
> 
> What Disney did in DLR was stop all new Magic Keys in favor of seasonal multi-day tickets.   That could be a way for Disney to have a floor for park admissions.  It may be tempting for them to go long term with this -- not undated tickets but seasonal multi-day tickets.  IF that is the case, it would be a very, very extreme price hike for former passholders if implemented for all passholders/frequent visitors.  Maybe they just do not want frequent visitors any longer?
> It could also be a way to ride out longer term litigation.  It completely abolishes the concept of annual passes for Southern California visitors in favor of a floor price for a gate admission. It may never apply to Disney World as there are differences.  But, if it is to buy time during the litigation, then after the Second Amended Complaint and Answer, Disney may be considering settlement and a road to recovery that does not include annual passes as we know them.



Thanks for the insight.  I guess I am very happy that they messed up my 10 day ticket by using a day in March (when they should not have) and let me buy a Sorcerer Renewal pass early as a way to get me the credit (since they could not give me back a 10 day pass like I had).

So, at least at this point, I am set with an AP through March of 2024!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

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## wnielsen1

This is the end game I envisioned when the lawsuit was filed.  Sure, they'll win the lawsuit (or get 80% of the way there in a settlement) so here's your refund and no more annual passes until park attendance craters, if ever.


----------



## artesian

wnielsen1 said:


> This is the end game I envisioned when the lawsuit was filed.  Sure, they'll win the lawsuit (or get 80% of the way there in a settlement) so here's your refund and no more annual passes until park attendance craters, *if ever.*


I am in the camp if ever will be 2023. They will ride the 50th out until March and that's when I personally see attendance starting to change if not sooner. I think the biggest reason they aren't selling now is pent up demand.(aka they can get away with it) With pricing being what it is it will turn on them soon. (I hope) Even though I could technically afford to go with just getting individual tix multiday I don't see the value anymore. My past trip had me down to only 3 park days on a 6 day stay. Not all might share my sentiment but without AP I did spend less and did go less.  I'd normally bounce back later this year or early next but will not go until late 2023-24.


----------



## Miffy

Whew! I realized that maybe I could renew my AP today (even though I had it on my calendar for tomorrow), so I just checked and in fact, I could renew it today, so I did. I have an Incredi-Pass since I'm an out-of-state WDW AP holder. Usually I look at what this costs--the renewal is $1,175 now--and remember ye olden days when an AP cost $400, but today I was just relieved I could get it at all.

@Ms Bibbidi: Thanks so much for your interesting and informative posts.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Just came here to post this.  There is an “insider” on another forum indicating that this is the end of annual passes as we know them.  They’re going to replace them with *something*, but that something is going to be really crummy.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## TinkB278

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Just came here to post this.  There is an “insider” on another forum indicating that this is the end of annual passes as we know them.  They’re going to replace them with *something*, but that something is going to be really crummy.


Was planning on adding on more points by the end of the summer but 100% will not be doing that if this is true. The end of APs equals the end of adding on dvc and multiple trips per year for me.


----------



## kes601

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Just came here to post this.  There is an “insider” on another forum indicating that this is the end of annual passes as we know them.  They’re going to replace them with *something*, but that something is going to be really crummy.


Care to post a link to it?


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## john7994

Was really hopeful some movement on this today, meant good news for AP purchases soon (tomorrow ) -


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## smmora

Just my luck, was planning on upgrading my ticket in 2 weeks to an Enchant Key - wish there was advance notice I would have just bought yesterday


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

kes601 said:


> Care to post a link to it?


I don’t think I’m allowed to.  Let’s see:  https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads...rk-reservations.965672/page-156#post-10272666

Edit:  I guess it’s not blocked.


----------



## Disney mac

TinkB278 said:


> Was planning on adding on more points by the end of the summer but 100% will not be doing that if this is true. The end of APs equals the end of adding on dvc and multiple trips per year for me.


It means the end of a few of my contracts too.  No AP means bye bye to many of my contracts, as it is just not worth it.  I can't wait until Chupek is gone.  I'm done with him....


----------



## wishicouldgomoreofte

RoseGold said:


> I swapped out the point bookings so that *a couple of my contracts are ready to* *sell after my May trip*. If there are no APs, even really expensive or Blue Card only ones, my DVC plans don’t work.  I can’t be the only one thinking that.
> 
> I’m not going to be the last one out, when the writing is on the wall.  Disney has made a lot of decisions that don’t benefit DVC, but this would be the one that ends it for me.


So did you sell your contracts?


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## ParkHoppers

With all the recent investment in DVC how does getting rid of annual passes jive with that? That would kill a large amount of the DVC business. Nah.


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## RoseGold

wishicouldgomoreofte said:


> So did you sell your contracts?


My plans got shuffled around a bit, I won’t be able to do anything until the end of the summer.  But yes, I shuffled points around so I will be ready to sell.

The solution I’m really looking for is an on-site only AP.


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## ParkHoppers

Imagine an AP style product ONLY being available to DVC blue card members and no one else. Including Florida residents.


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## RoseGold

ParkHoppers said:


> Imagine an AP style product ONLY being available to DVC blue card members and no one else. Including Florida residents.


Just make it an on-site AP.  Then anyone can stay on any Disney property.  The campground, DVC, All stars, whatever.  The Disney resorts have known capacity caps nowhere near the numbers of total APs.

I get it.  Nobody likes the unwashed bonnet creek masses packing their sandwiches.  So make the pass for on site stays.  Heck, get crazy and include the waldorf.


----------



## Mexacajun

RoseGold said:


> I swapped out the point bookings so that a couple of my contracts are ready to sell after my May trip. If there are no APs, even really expensive or Blue Card only ones, my DVC plans don’t work.  I can’t be the only one thinking that.
> 
> I’m not going to be the last one out, when the writing is on the wall.  Disney has made a lot of decisions that don’t benefit DVC, but this would be the one that ends it for me.





RoseGold said:


> Just make it an on-site AP.  Then anyone can stay on any Disney property.  The campground, DVC, All stars, whatever.  The Disney resorts have known capacity caps nowhere near the numbers of total APs,


This is what I want. I recently bought DVC and then went crazy on multiple resale contracts. But I did it al on the basis of getting APs back. Without APs, I have no idea how I can make the huge amount of points I have acquired work and I will have to sell some.


----------



## Duckbug.Ducktales

Disney mac said:


> I can't wait until Chupek is gone.  I'm done with him....


I've _been _done with him but he insists on lingering like a dead fart. So annoying.


----------



## CarolMN

RoseGold said:


> The solution I’m really looking for is an on-site only AP.





RoseGold said:


> Just make it an on-site AP.  Then anyone can stay on any Disney property.  The campground, DVC, All stars, whatever.  The Disney resorts have known capacity caps nowhere near the numbers of total APs.
> 
> I get it.  Nobody likes the unwashed bonnet creek masses packing their sandwiches.  So make the pass for on site stays.  Heck, get crazy and include the waldorf.


This would work for us, too, but I don't think it will happen at a price I could accept.


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## AnnaKristoff2013

Imagine an AP style product ONLY being available to DVC blue card members and no one else. Including Florida residents.


ParkHoppers said:


> View attachment 673266


DVC is selling just fine right now with now AP’s available unfortunately.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## DeeBee3

I know it was mentioned yesterday, but no one has really "discussed" it - does the change at DL mean anything for WDW? What I gathered from the pause of DL passes was that they are waiting until summer is over and offering people a ticket deal now. I figure it means nothing for WDW


----------



## Disney mac

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Maybe if Disney built a Fifth Gate instead if another massive hotel they would solve the crowding problems.


That’s like telling oil companies to build a new refinery this millennium so it can bring down the price of gas…no business is going to make a new product that will lose them money.  A fifth gate wouldn’t break even for years.  And all Chupunk cares about is his executive bonus.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## AnnaKristoff2013

DeeBee3 said:


> I know it was mentioned yesterday, but no one has really "discussed" it - does the change at DL mean anything for WDW? What I gathered from the pause of DL passes was that they are waiting until summer is over and offering people a ticket deal now. I figure it means nothing for WDW


The timing on the DL announcement strongly hints that we will see something similar for WDW in the next month.  This is right before the 60 day renewal period would have started for all the magic key holders.  June.  For WDW that date is around July 9th.  I expect to see them make the same move as DL by then and stop all renewals of current AP’s and all new sales of Pixie Passes to be replaced by whatever they’re cooking up.  If you have a WDW AP that is eligible for renewal in the next 30 days, renew NOW or there’s a good chance you’re losing it.  Of course, renewing only gets you another year anyway before you have only the choice of no AP or whatever crap sandwich they’re cooking up as a replacement for the current program.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

'


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think I will advise not only to renew now, but also make every effort to activate any dormant voucher you want to use in the next year.


I just want to thank you again for your posts. Because of them I was very aware about renewing my AP--and was quite relieved when I was able to do it yesterday.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Disney has had three levels of passes just for them and we get a whole lot of mail adverts about Disney happenings.


This hasn’t been true for months.  The only non-renewal pass left is for Florida residents, the weekday, heavily blacked-out passes.  Even the most recent generation got rid of the locals Epcot only night pass.

Chapek was very clear that Disney wants money.  They don’t care how much locals spent on houses, because they didn’t get the money.  They’re still not spending money as offsite guests with APs.  An on-site AP would be a direct target to the rich people staying at the MANY quite fancy hotels offsite or their fancy nearby houses.  It would be a great tie in to the huge DVC project coming 2024 and the millions of unsold Aulani and RIV points.

And importantly, on site AP is limited in size, as opposed to the whole central Florida region.  Hotel capacity is nowhere near park capacity, so at least they can actually accommodate this pass, as opposed to that Magic Key mess.


----------



## tjkraz

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> DVC is selling just fine right now with now AP’s available unfortunately.


For two months things have been selling well, aided greatly by an appealing product (VGF) at lower-than-anticipated pricing. AP sales have only been paused for 6 months; 3.5 months when VGF went on sale. Many members currently have valid passes and others are assuming they will return at some point in time. If it becomes clear that the only theme park admission option going forward is MYW tickets at $600-700 per person for a single week-long stay, I think it will inevitably hurt DVC sales.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## CarolMN

Agree, let's not argue anymore or label groups of Disney guests.

This thread is about AP sales - and when/how they might return.  That topic is very interesting to DVC  Members, as well as to lots of other Disney guests.


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## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Why do you care so much if the guest standing next to you in line goes home at night, swims in their own pool and sleeps in their own bed?


Chapek said Disney wants revenue, that's pretty clear.  This isn't about what guest I want, it's about what guest he wants.

On-site as an AP category has two advantages.  Money.  And it's limited in size.  It's a clear solution.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## CraigInPA

While Disney Parks may break down the revenue in some obscure footnotes to the financial reports into smaller bites, the real key performance indicators looked at by analysts are the number of people going through the gate and the average revenue per guest. With the pent-up demand for a "vacation" after 2 years of covid, the number of guests going through the tapstiles has gone through the roof. With the introduction of higher day prices, Genie+, ILL's, and the elimination of AP's, gate revenue is up. In the hunt for more revenue and less cost, food prices are up (and some food quantity is down), souvenir prices are up, staffing is down (although, to be fair, some staff shortages are due to people not wanting those jobs), and things like shows and parades were curtailed for a LONG time after re-opening. So, right now, Disney Parks is clawing its way back after a couple of devastating years caused by a pandemic, and doing great with their key performance indicators (number of guests, revenue per guest).

As we seem to be headed into a recession, with high inflation, we should expect to see the demand for "vacations" drop. This will put pressure on Disney Parks. They need to keep the revenue numbers up, but if the number of people through the gate falls, they will have two choices;
1. Raise the gate prices and things like Genie+ and ILL's, which all go hand-in-hand. This could further cut attendance, as any price increase does. It's a risky move in a tight economy.
2. Go back to pushing AP's as a way to get more bodies through the tapstiles, which will trigger more sales of Genie+ and ILL's and Food and Souvenirs. The AP's give a big chunk of money up front, which pushes back the loss of day pass revenue for 6 or more months on average, long enough for Chapek to get his bonus.


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## tjkraz

RoseGold said:


> Chapek said Disney wants revenue, that's pretty clear.  This isn't about what guest I want, it's about what guest he wants.
> 
> On-site as an AP category has two advantages.  Money.  And it's limited in size.  It's a clear solution.


Disney has known about the differences in guest spending for many years. Statistically DVC members aren't big spenders either, given the kitchen in most villas, lower demand for souvenirs among repeat guests, some owners don't even have park passes for trip.

There's a quote from Chapek making the rounds this week which dates back to August 2020 when the heaviest attendance limits (6' social distancing, etc.) were still in place. Disney absolutely wants as many big spenders in the parks as possible. That's nothing new.

What is new is the need / desire to dole-out capacity in a...ahem...revenue friendly manner. Prior to March 2020, the parks hardly ever reached capacity. Disney was able to sell as many MYW tickets as possible and still pack in a nearly unlimited number of pass holders without sacrificing revenue.

Today things are different. Seemingly due to ongoing staffing issues and other factors which impact park capacity. On some level, Disney must continue planning for the *possibility* that future covid variants will force them to pull back on attendance again.

It's unlikely they will be able to fill the parks entirely with guests willing to buy MYW tickets.  Passholders DO still have a place in the Disney Parks. But until there's a clear path to full staffing and 2019 levels of "business as usual", concessions have to be made somewhere. From a business perspective (yes, Disney is a business), it doesn't make sense to sell a ticket that gives locals literally 300+ days of access to the parks while you're turning away MYW sales.


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## Brian Noble

tjkraz said:


> Seemingly due to ongoing staffing issues and other factors which impact park capacity.


After watching what's been going on for the past month or two, I think there is at least one additional factor at play: the desire to spread a particular day's guest load---whatever that load might be---across the four theme parks, rather than have drastically different attendance levels in the four parks.

May's wait times have dropped considerably, but most of the parks not named Epcot were "at capacity" for pretty much the whole month. That's not driven by Cast availability, food service, or attraction capacity, because the crowds (as measured by resort-wide average wait times) were apparently much higher in February and March.

That tells me that capacity is not set on what a park _can_ do on at least some days, but at some lower point. The fact that MK and DS are "selling out" even at what by all appearances is a lower attendance level leads me to guess that balancing across parks is part of the plan.

And, this makes a certain amount of sense. One of the goals of FP+ was to spread out guests _within_ a park through all the attractions, so that formerly quiet morning/evening periods at the "secondary" attractions were busier. G+ doesn't really do that in the same way---at least, not in the morning---but the Park Pass system might be revisiting the same playbook on a Park basis rather than an attraction basis.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Miffy

I guess it's possible (and I have zero insider knowledge--this is just a guess) that they could put APs on sale occasionally and there'd be only a limited number available. It'd be like getting an ILL$ for RotR: the first however many people to successfully log in and complete payment would get APs and those whose apps crashed would be left out.

They have never stopped letting people renew. This gives me hope.

I realize all that "Disney is a business and they want profit" stuff, but the execs at Disney can't possibly be forgetting why people love coming so much. And it's not because they're happy to fund the Disney C-suite's bonuses.


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## Mai Ku Tiki

Brian Noble said:


> After watching what's been going on for the past month or two, I think there is at least one additional factor at play: the desire to spread a particular day's guest load---whatever that load might be---across the four theme parks, rather than have drastically different attendance levels in the four parks.
> 
> May's wait times have dropped considerably, but most of the parks not named Epcot were "at capacity" for pretty much the whole month. That's not driven by Cast availability, food service, or attraction capacity, because the crowds (as measured by resort-wide average wait times) were apparently much higher in February and March.
> 
> That tells me that capacity is not set on what a park _can_ do on at least some days, but at some lower point. The fact that MK and DS are "selling out" even at what by all appearances is a lower attendance level leads me to guess that balancing across parks is part of the plan.
> 
> And, this makes a certain amount of sense. One of the goals of FP+ was to spread out guests _within_ a park through all the attractions, so that formerly quiet morning/evening periods at the "secondary" attractions were busier. G+ doesn't really do that in the same way---at least, not in the morning---but the Park Pass system might be revisiting the same playbook on a Park basis rather than an attraction basis.


I'm Cheapunk's worst nitemare.
50 years worth of WDW on-site stays incl May... DVC member years ago & again recently + former AP holder here...

IMO, no matter how all of this shakes out for me & mine, selling any on-site room in a hotel built to entice visitors to WDW & then denying them guaranteed access to all 4 parks EVERY DAY while raising ticket prices, is a level of cynical corporate greed only Scrooge McDuck or Cheapunk could imagine.

***I meant to refer here to ANY guest at ANY WDW hotel, not only DVC.


----------



## tjkraz

Ms Bibbidi said:


> From that genesis, Walt Disney built his first park, intended to be a family park - a local park where families could have fun together.  The roots of Disney parks are in being a family park for locals.  That has  not changed.


In fairness, Walt never conceived of a theme park complex that would mirror the Disneyland and Walt Disney World we see today. He wasn't setting policies which would accommodate 50-100 million guests per year, arriving from all corners of the globe.

To be selfish for a moment, I'm not sure there's a group more adversely impacted by this AP situation than DVC Members. We're talking about a group who has committed to visiting DL or WDW annually for up to 5 decades to come. The average owner has about 275 points, figure maybe 8-12 nights worth depending upon season and room type. Maneuvering 2 years worth of trips under a single set of APs means the DVC owner is getting maybe 16-24 visits to the parks for their passes. This is far less than the amount of access granted to locals, who could potentially visit 100...200...300 days in a year for the same or LESS than what a DVC member is paying for admission.

I'm not rooting for locals to be harmed in any modifications to the Annual Passholder program. But it would be a good opportunity to separate the locals--who are buying APs to visit literally dozens of times per year--vs DVC owners, most of whom would probably be content with +/- 3 weeks of theme park access scattered over a 365-day span.

DVC owners deserve more layers than a max 10-day pass that expires in 2 weeks vs a 340-365 day pass that costs $1000+.


----------



## Pooh12863

tjkraz said:


> In fairness, Walt never conceived of a theme park complex that would mirror the Disneyland and Walt Disney World we see today. He wasn't setting policies which would accommodate 50-100 million guests per year, arriving from all corners of the globe.
> 
> To be selfish for a moment, I'm not sure there's a group more adversely impacted by this AP situation than DVC Members. We're talking about a group who has committed to visiting DL or WDW annually for up to 5 decades to come. The average owner has about 275 points, figure maybe 8-12 nights worth depending upon season and room type. Maneuvering 2 years worth of trips under a single set of APs means the DVC owner is getting maybe 16-24 visits to the parks for their passes. This is far less than the amount of access granted to locals, who could potentially visit 100...200...300 days in a year for the same or LESS than what a DVC member is paying for admission.
> 
> I'm not rooting for locals to be harmed in any modifications to the Annual Passholder program. But it would be a good opportunity to separate the locals--who are buying APs to visit literally dozens of times per year--vs DVC owners, most of whom would probably be content with +/- 3 weeks of theme park access scattered over a 365-day span.
> 
> DVC owners deserve more layers than a max 10-day pass that expires in 2 weeks vs a 340-365 day pass that costs $1000+.


To be fair DVC never promised any of us theme park access, so I find the debate of who should get AP's and who shouldn't a bit silly. Sell AP's or don't and let the chips fall where they may.

Not directed at you in particular.


----------



## Matty B13

Pooh12863 said:


> To be fair DVC never promised any of us theme park access, so I find the debate of who should get AP's and who shouldn't a bit silly. Sell AP's or don't and let the chips fall where they may.


I would love it if a DVC Guide said this to a perspective buyer.....


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## Pooh12863

Matty B13 said:


> I would love it if a DVC Guide said this to a perspective buyer.....


Perhaps prospective buyers should read the contract they're signing, and stop putting their faith in salespersons.


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## tjkraz

Pooh12863 said:


> To be fair DVC never promised any of us theme park access, so I find the debate of who should get AP's and who shouldn't a bit silly. Sell AP's or don't and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> Not directed at you in particular.


Is the debate silly or is it necessary? In terms of attendance patterns, out-of-town DVC owners are far different than locals. A DVC member using an AP for 3 specific trips in a year--staying on-site--should not be weighted the same as a local who wishes to visit every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. The audiences are different enough that Disney could use this opportunity to create different admission media which better caters to the needs of each group.

Where is the harm in creating some middle ground between a 10 day (expiring) MYW pass and a 345 day Sorcerer Pass?


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## Mai Ku Tiki

tjkraz said:


> In fairness, Walt never conceived of a theme park complex that would mirror the Disneyland and Walt Disney World we see today. He wasn't setting policies which would accommodate 50-100 million guests per year, arriving from all corners of the globe.
> 
> To be selfish for a moment, I'm not sure there's a group more adversely impacted by this AP situation than DVC Members. We're talking about a group who has committed to visiting DL or WDW annually for up to 5 decades to come. The average owner has about 275 points, figure maybe 8-12 nights worth depending upon season and room type. Maneuvering 2 years worth of trips under a single set of APs means the DVC owner is getting maybe 16-24 visits to the parks for their passes. This is far less than the amount of access granted to locals, who could potentially visit 100...200...300 days in a year for the same or LESS than what a DVC member is paying for admission.
> 
> I'm not rooting for locals to be harmed in any modifications to the Annual Passholder program. But it would be a good opportunity to separate the locals--who are buying APs to visit literally dozens of times per year--vs DVC owners, most of whom would probably be content with +/- 3 weeks of theme park access scattered over a 365-day span.
> 
> DVC owners deserve more layers than a max 10-day pass that expires in 2 weeks vs a 340-365 day pass that costs $1000+.


You make a great point.
As a long-distance DVC owner who spent thousands on the APs we needed over the yrs, I appreciated that opportunity.

When we moved to Central Fla for awhile, our MUCH cheaper APs with FL discounts bought us so much more WDW access...
And on top of that, there were always FL residents discounts popping up (BOGO or Buy 2 days/Get 3...) for those w/o APs.

Somehow, I think we're all more concerned about fairness for everyone than those at TWDC, as long as Cheapunk is at the helm.


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## TiggerBouncy

tjkraz said:


> DVC owners deserve more layers than a max 10-day pass that expires in 2 weeks vs a 340-365 day pass that costs $1000+.


That's a good point.  From a different perspective, I don't really need an AP.  I just need a ticket that includes 14-21 days and expires in a year. Although having said that, I like some of the AP perks. Although as DVC, I do not need the AP discount, I like having it.  I also like getting to purchase special AP merch.


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## Brian Noble

tjkraz said:


> Where is the harm in creating some middle ground between a 10 day (expiring) MYW pass and a 345 day Sorcerer Pass?


The Sorcerer pass costs (past-tense cost if you prefer) less than two 4-day park hoppers. I'm not sure there needs to be something between them, unless you think the former is under-priced.


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## Pooh12863

tjkraz said:


> Is the debate silly or is it necessary? In terms of attendance patterns, out-of-town DVC owners are far different than locals. A DVC member using an AP for 3 specific trips in a year--staying on-site--should not be weighted the same as a local who wishes to visit every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. The audiences are different enough that Disney could use this opportunity to create different admission media which better caters to the needs of each group.
> 
> Where is the harm in creating some middle ground between a 10 day (expiring) MYW pass and a 345 day Sorcerer Pass?


I don't believe attendance patterns have anything to do with local AP's, they've always been there, the parks were getting crowded before all these changes, they'll probably get less crowded as the economy worsens.


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## Prince John Robin Hood

TiggerBouncy said:


> That's a good point.  From a different perspective, I don't really need an AP.  I just need a ticket that includes 14-21 days and expires in a year. Although having said that, I like some of the AP perks. Although as DVC, I do not need the AP discount, I like having it.  I also like getting to purchase special AP merch.



They have the 14 day UK tickets so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they could offer a longer ticket good for 365 days to DVC that requires an onsite stay.  I'd be okay with that instead of AP.


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## ParkHoppers

Maybe I missed it but who ever said locals didn’t deserve to get an AP. More like is Disney callous enough to cut them out.


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## BillPA

Just to stir the pot, what does a 14 day pass cost? Is it a hopper?


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## Madame

BillPA said:


> Just to stir the pot, what does a 14 day pass cost? Is it a hopper?


Yes and until recently included g+…. They run adult for kid price sales too… not too sure of recent pricing.


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## TiggerBouncy

Madame said:


> Yes and until recently included g+…. They run adult for kid price sales too… not too sure of recent pricing.



But the expiration is the problem. In 2014 and before, you could purchase no expiration tickets. They changed it to number of days + 2 (or so) sliding days. If they moved it to within a year, it might make it a more viable option for us.


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## tjkraz

Brian Noble said:


> The Sorcerer pass costs (past-tense cost if you prefer) less than two 4-day park hoppers. I'm not sure there needs to be something between them, unless you think the former is under-priced.



The Sorcerer pass is a reasonable value and if it were to return as-is, I would be content with that. But what we're hearing suggests that Disney is no longer comfortable providing 345 days of access for $900 or 365 days of access for $1200. That they wish to impose some limits on pass holders--beyond blockout dates--such that Disney is no longer turning away $120/day MYW ticket buyers in favor of a pass holder paying as little as $3 per day.

If true, I hope the new ticketing structure reflects the idea that most DVC owners don't need 300+ days of park access per year. I hope there's some middle ground between 10 day expiring MYW and 345 day AP. Say, 30 visits per year for around the $900 price of the Sorcerer pass.


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## Prince John Robin Hood

BillPA said:


> Just to stir the pot, what does a 14 day pass cost? Is it a hopper?


It's about $600 for an adult right now and good for an 18 day window.


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## BillPA

That's a good deal, a 5 day hopper ave is in the $625 range depending on date. Thanks


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## Brian Noble

tjkraz said:


> what we're hearing suggests that Disney is no longer comfortable


Those rumblings strike me as extraordinarily speculative. Here's the post that I think most people are referring to when they talk about the "insider":

https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads...-theme-park-reservations.965672/post-10272666

I don't know about you, but that sounds like someone reporting on a brain-storming process that is going to explore a lot of options but settle on something that is relatively incremental. WDW has offered an annual pass priced somewhere between two and three "trips" per year (depending on the number of days, did you get hoppers, etc.) for as long as I've been going, modulo COVID-era "pauses". While the details will probably be different, and they may try to push the upper end of that envelope with some perk-loaded pass, I don't expect them to do something particularly radical.

If I had to bet money, I would bet they'll land on something pretty similar to what the other major operators (Universal, Six Flags, and SW/Busch) have been doing for a few years with a larger menu of passes to pick from, where the upper end is more expensive but that includes some moderately meaningful perks that most people won't take full advantage of. (Ask me how many bring-a-friend-free tickets I've used on my SWO pass...). For example, a "discount ladder" (5%-10%-15% on food/merch), maybe a deeper discount on one off-season Party/After Hours event at the higher tiers, various (made-up) levels of parking, etc.

I don't think any of those options will will be priced below "two trips" for the non-FL/DVC crowd; there's no reason to do that. I do think the FL residents will have at least one option at a lower price point with more restrictions, because they are the shock-absorbers for attendance fluctuations. I'm a little less certain about DVC, but I bet they'll have access to something just shy of "two trips" as well.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Miffy said:


> They have never stopped letting people renew


This is not true for Disneyland.


----------



## Blondie58

Madame said:


> Is anyone else (who uses their DVC for park visits) seriously struggling to find a way forward without an AP..?
> 
> We’ve reduced length of ticket (incorporating 50% non park days), reduced to base instead of hoppers…. The cost is just prohibitive.  I’m not even thinking of the discounted pass (which is useless to us as Xmas travellers)… just any AP!
> 
> I don’t understand how they market DVC anymore, but given the proclivity of most new - & many veteran - owners to choose studios (assuming to save points) and prefer multiple visits to larger accommodations….  Just why are they not allowing AP sales to DVC members?


Not having an AP makes the decision to go more often to WDW prohibitive for us.  (Could be the intent of the organization.)  We are looking to use points at Hilton Head this fall.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

'


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## DeeBee3

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Earlier somebody asked about the 14 day Disney World tickets being offered in the United Kingdom.
> Current advertisement in the United Kingdom.
> Today, 499 GBP is worth $622.62  That's $44.47 a day.
> Note the dates are over the holiday season from Halloween through New Year's Eve
> It includes Genie+. parkhopper, waterparks and photopass.  Loaded tickets
> 
> A US standard 10 day ticket is $55 per day or $550 plus tax. , but that time period is more expensive.
> Also, that is a single park without a parkhopper option, without waterparks, no photopass and no Genie+.
> 
> Disney's 14-Day Magic Ticket 2022​*For visits from 26th Oct - 31st Dec 2022*
> Unlimited Visits for 14 days (in a 18-day period)
> Entry to all six Disney World Parks
> Memory Maker included worth $199^
> Ticket only valid from a selected start date during 2022
> Prices from
> Adults£499
> Child (3 - 9 yrs)£479
> Book
> Full Ticket Details


Can I move to the UK just for this deal?


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## WilsonFlyer

DeeBee3 said:


> Can I move to the UK just for this deal?



So many tangents to this. So many forum rules.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## DeeBee3

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You know, I was wondering what would happen if like a US Florida resident Pixie passholder contacted the vendor and bought these tickets.  Internationals can buy our Incredi-passes.  I did not see any resident or citizen restrictions in the ad.  I am thinking Disney World would have to honor it.


So you're telling me there's a chance???


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> By July the Incredi, Sorcerer, Pirate  and Pixie will become legacy passes.  There will be something new.  It may not have blockout date calendars or park reservations.  Passholders in a renewal window will receive info direct from Disney.



Well, that’s an interesting tidbit.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> That is what appears to be info out there now.  The least trustworthy tidbit is no park reservations.  Chapek recently said that would continue.  So I do not know.  Maybe the attempt to control with two buckets will end?  We wait for details.



Yes, details! I wonder what it means for the voucher I do have..which is a Sorcerer renewal one allowed to be done early?

We also have my daughters renewal Gold which wasn’t yet activated since she hasn’t made it yet.  

The only plus seems some level of an AP..now price? That could be the kicker.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The metals passes renewed into the character passes quite easily because they only modified the calendars slightly and added the options for free.  I guess the new product will not be translatable like that.  It will be too different so Disney will offer options for passholders with expiring passes.  We know there will be more than one option.  But we do not even know if they will be annual in length.



We do a lot of short trips vs. long ones, so I just want a reasonable option that allows me to continue to do that...if not, then I will just have to adjust the budget to figure it out!!!  Even a pass that has multiple days but good for months at a time would work so it can be used over multiple trips....


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## kes601

Sandisw said:


> We do a lot of short trips vs. long ones, so I just want a reasonable option that allows me to continue to do that...if not, then I will just have to adjust the budget to figure it out!!!  Even a pass that has multiple days but good for months at a time would work so it can be used over multiple trips....


We typically go 2 weeks in the summer, a week or more at Christmas, sometimes Thanksgiving, and sometimes a long weekend in the spring.  I suspect whatever they come out with will not work in our favor and our budget will get adjusted accordingly.  What I can't tell from the really long thread is if Ms Bibbidi is an "insider" or just collects info from other discussions (and I'm not reading 36 pages to figure it out).  Until I see an official release from Disney I'm not going to take anything I read as the absolute truth.


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## cheryl.UK

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Earlier somebody asked about the 14 day Disney World tickets being offered in the United Kingdom.
> Current advertisement in the United Kingdom.
> Today, 499 GBP is worth $622.62  That's $44.47 a day.
> Note the dates are over the holiday season from Halloween through New Year's Eve
> It includes Genie+. parkhopper, waterparks and photopass.  Loaded tickets
> 
> A US standard 10 day ticket is $55 per day or $550 plus tax. , but that time period is more expensive.
> Also, that is a single park without a parkhopper option, without waterparks, no photopass and no Genie+.
> 
> Disney's 14-Day Magic Ticket 2022​*For visits from 26th Oct - 31st Dec 2022*
> Unlimited Visits for 14 days (in a 18-day period)
> Entry to all six Disney World Parks
> Memory Maker included worth $199^
> Ticket only valid from a selected start date during 2022
> Prices from
> Adults£499
> Child (3 - 9 yrs)£479
> Book
> Full Ticket Details


The £499 ticket doesn't include Genie +.  There was an option to buy Genie+ at £6.99 per day but that offer seems to have ended, as I can't find it on any of the ticket sites in the UK.  The  total would have been £597 or $746.   It was a good deal at $53 per day.  I didn't buy mine when the offer was on as I'm still holding out for an annual pass.  We leave in 78 days.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## kes601

Ms Bibbidi said:


> There was no need to attack me.  That was nasty.


It was not an attack whatsoever, I apologize if it came off as such.  I really was wondering if you are in insider or merely collecting info.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## SLThomas318

Ms Bibbidi said:


> By July the Incredi, Sorcerer, Pirate  and Pixie will become legacy passes.  There will be something new.  It may not have blockout date calendars or park reservations.  Passholders in a renewal window will receive info direct from Disney.


I tried to read the last few pages to get caught up.... was new info released this morning or is this just a summary of the insider-info from the other forum?


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## Mexacajun

SLThomas318 said:


> I tried to read the last few pages to get caught up.... was new info released this morning or is this just a summary of the insider-info from the other forum?


IMHO, I have read the entire thread here and the “insider” info on the other site and unless something else has been released, this is either 1. Complete speculation or 2. Additional “insider” info.


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## Prince John Robin Hood

We need some bus driver updates people!


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Disney stopped all Magic Key sales yesterday, plus an "insider" post yesterday, plus a blogger that talked directly with a Disney spokesperson later yesterday and plus two statements by cast members to passholders after that.  "That's all we are allowed to say right now" when telling them a Pixie pass could not be upgraded at renewal.  (That is a change from earlier cast member statements that they could.)  But, we all wait for official info direct from Disney and I have said that several times.


Did the blogger post anywhere and is the link allowed. Would very much appreciate links to your online sources


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## MakiraMarlena

I have an AP that I could renew, but I think offering DVC the pixie dust weekday passes is a great idea....


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## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Nuhusky123, the blogger was a post on the internet that I found doing Google searches.  Anna was able to post a link so it appears it is allowed.  However, I have spent some time trying to re-Google and am not finding it today.  I am sorry.  I didn't know the link would be important.


Thanks for looking. I’m super curious what people in the know say or at the very least speculate

Question why are we thinking July is when we find out?


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The Incredi-pass, Sorcerer, Pirate and Pixie (“character passes”) first went on sale September 8, 2021.   The first ones sold expire 9/7/22.  Renewal window opens 60 days before expiration — July 9, 2022.  If Disney does not want the Character Passes to renew as character passes, they have to have end them.  A Disney Rep said the Magic Key holders would be offered a renewal option with details to be sent to the current passholders by Disney. There was more than one option.  Then two different cast members told Pixie passholders that their Pixies could not be upgraded if new passes came out (that is a change from the past) but something else would be offered at renewal time.  So, logically, the new passes will be too different to translate like the metals passes to the character passes.  The Magic Key renewal window starts July 15, 2022.  So we are up first to get the new info before July 9th. Disney reps and cast members were the ones saying that was all they were allowed to say but there would be more information later this summer.


Thanks for the run down. I’m a dvc owner without an ap and desperate for something better than day by day tickets. 

I’m hoping I can buy something before sept and my next trip that net is cheaper than the day park tickets even if it isn’t an ap as they exist today. But I’ll be broke if I have to pay for these day tickets much longer


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## BeachClub2014

I really appreciate this thread. Our platinum AP's went into their renewal window in mid-May and thanks to this thread, we knew to immediately renew them and were able to do so for the DVC Sorcerer pass. Let's hope they come out with a new AP in the not too distant future.


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## Like2Detail

nuhusky123 said:


> Thanks for the run down. I’m a dvc owner without an ap and desperate for something better than day by day tickets.
> 
> I’m hoping I can buy something before sept and my next trip that net is cheaper than the day park tickets even if it isn’t an ap as they exist today. But I’ll be broke if I have to pay for these day tickets much longer


Us as well.  We just bought Riviera in March without researching the AP pause.  My wife and I were back for a short trip to Poly last week and only did one day at Epcot.  We are staying at GF in July with my son and he will not be as happy to hang out at the resort as we were.  Just priced day tickets for 6 days and it's almost as much as a Sorcerer pass.  We also have December 22 & March 23 booked and are planning June 23.  I don't want to basically buy 4 AP's per person to cover those trips, that's crazy.  AP's were a big reason why we decided to do DVC, shame on me for not researching.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## john7994

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Old article, but still relevant about Mr. Chapek's deliberate abuse of the annual passholder.
> 
> https://liveandletsfly.com/disneys-campaign-against-annual-passholders-backfiring/


Good article - terrible font


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Disney mac

I don’t think Chapunk cares one little bit about long term.  I think he’s all about his own personal bonus and his stock options.

If he had any foresight at all, he would be selling AP passes like crazy with the looming economy to ensure loyalty through the downturn.


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## john7994

Disney mac said:


> I don’t think Chapunk cares one little bit about long term.  I think he’s all about his own personal bonus and his stock options.
> 
> *If he had any foresight at all, he would be selling AP passes like crazy with the looming economy to ensure loyalty through the downturn.*


Except for all the other complaints about the crowds and existing crappy experience which people seem to think is also a loyalty-buster


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## kmorlock

There is value in every guest no matter how they got through the gate.  AP’s spend a good amount on merchandise and dining too.  Annnd…they keep coming back.   It’s a sad day when the most brand loyal guests are treated as an inconvenience.  Chapek’s regime needs to go.


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## Disney mac

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  More tea leaves this morning.  So, I was researching info about … well how Disney might consult experts in the theme park industry and those expert’s public statements regarding passholders.  Of course we all know names like Bob Igor, Bob Chapek, Josh D’Amaro etc.  I found a new one.  New to me.  Dennis Spiegel, an industry expert with international theme park services.  I Googled that and went back some years.  It appears he may well be engaged in advising Disney.  He certainly predicted the demand surges after reopening post Covid closure.  There are many articles talking about his knowledge of passholders.  He describes them as a fast growing vine that chokes out the more profitable guests.  He currently tells the media that guests will pay more for line cutting services.  Much more.   Mr Chapek just changed the purchase of Genie + from advanced reservations to morning of reservations starting June 8th.  So the tea leaves indicate much higher prices for line jumping services.  Maybe they cap Genie+ and ILL reservations and couple that with much higher costs.
> 
> He also flat out discusses annual passes as discounted gate admissions, not his words. I do not remember the words.  But in crowded times discounting admission is not recommended.  Preserving some fan loyalty is the only reason.  They tried severe blockout calendars and reservations.  The results were not satisfactory to either Disney or the Passholder contingent.  The widespread use of paid line jumping services surprised them.
> 
> Apparently, there are a lot of surveys out now to current passholders.   Renewals are a tool too and keeps some base of loyal fans intact.  But it does not cover those who were would-be passholders who were also historic passholders caught out when they suddenly stopped sales.  However remember when annual pass sales restarted 40% were to “new” buyers.  Maybe some new buyers were really caught-out buyers.  The passholder numbers grew too fast.  That does not bode well for new AP sales.  Maybe string tickets with a short seasonal expiration dates.  But it appears clear the experts think substantial future revenue will come from line jumping services.  They call it line cutting services.
> 
> So try some Google searches for Dennis Spiegel and other key words.  Very interesting reading.
> 
> Disneyland lost their renewal language on their passholder pages.  Their old passes are not coming back.  Disney World still has renewal language as of this morning and is still selling Pixie.  That may not hold.


I think the tea leaves you point out are interesting.  I think it also signals the end of Disney and DVC as we use it.   It’s time to sell everyone.


----------



## DL1WDW2

I already Sold my VWL/BRV DVC (200 points) 

Universal announcing AP increases yesterday makes me very nervous!


----------



## DVCsloth

Just added 100 Riviera, hope we get some type of pass!


----------



## cheryl.UK

Please do not shoot me down for this one people.  It's an observation and a question that's all.  It's not meant to stir up blue card vs white card arguments...

Does anyone remember back in September last year when they introduced the Sorcerers's pass how white card members were posting that they had been able to buy it?  Did this partly cause the upsurge in pass sales?  And, perhaps more importantly, will these passes be eligible for renewal?


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## DL1WDW2

Well they have announced the Pixie Pass is not renewable & can not be upgraded .
but it is stressful keeping up with rumors/ alerts / changes .
Now I am wondering if I go ahead and purchase 2 pixie passes for my grandchildren but wait to a time to activate them when they visit… I guess Disney will honor their value to spend more money if not activated.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## MICKIMINI

cheryl.UK said:


> Please do not shoot me down for this one people.  It's an observation and a question that's all.  It's not meant to stir up blue card vs white card arguments...
> 
> Does anyone remember back in September last year when they introduced the Sorcerers's pass how white card members were posting that they had been able to buy it?  Did this partly cause the upsurge in pass sales?  And, perhaps more importantly, will these passes be eligible for renewal?


Good point.  Scrub the white card AP buyers out of the system.  Disney should have been able to shut that down pretty quickly at the time but didn't.  Disclosure:  DVC AP owner blue card (and white card)


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## DVCsloth

Seems to me that they would encourage the Pixie Dust Pass to help ease some of the crowding on the weekends.


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## john7994

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Tea Leaves:  Dennis Spiegel thinks long lines are going to continue to be a problem for another year or two from now.  That was in an interview he gave to our local WESH station.  He said long lines plague other theme parks everywhere in the industry too.
> 
> So, that may be a predictor that they are going to bake higher Genie+ and ILL prices into line cutting services.  They want more revenue from that.  I think I heard generally, locals do not buy those services as much as the guests who travel.


Mr Spiegel is also a huge advocate of dynamic daily pricing as well - as far back as 2016. I have to also wonder that the volume of APs undermined dynamic pricing as implemented currently. Perhaps, someone in corporate economics finally raised the flag.


----------



## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You know, I was wondering what would happen if like a US Florida resident Pixie passholder contacted the vendor and bought these tickets.  Internationals can buy our Incredi-passes.  I did not see any resident or citizen restrictions in the ad.  I am thinking Disney World would have to honor it.


I talked to someone who tried to do this from mainland Europe before Covid, I want to say 2018?  They tried to buy the UK passes, and you had to have a UK bank card to buy them.

This is also how the Florida passes work, you have to have a card with a FL billing address.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## john7994

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well, I can see I have some reading to do to wrap my head around understanding dynamic daily pricing.  I thought I understood on and off season, but dynamic daily?  Wow.  Genie+ reservations on "day of"?  Could be you uncovered something, John.  Annual discount sales could be the antithesis of that.  Did you mean more by "raised the flag"?  It is a whole new administration.
> 
> Taking the long view though, life does have a way of smoothing things out in the long run.


Raise the flag in terms of the detrimental economics of the APs on a dynamic pricing model. Its not uber/lyft dynamic pricing (yet). Its almost like DVC in that I bought in to the program which keeps my "cost" per night stable (based on points) and serves to somewhat insulate me from surges up of rack rate room pricing which also can have variability.

And to your other comments, I think the AP is on review for a variety of complimentary factors as you note with Genie+ line skipping economics (look for a price hike for sure).


----------



## Sandisw

cheryl.UK said:


> Please do not shoot me down for this one people.  It's an observation and a question that's all.  It's not meant to stir up blue card vs white card arguments...
> 
> Does anyone remember back in September last year when they introduced the Sorcerers's pass how white card members were posting that they had been able to buy it?  Did this partly cause the upsurge in pass sales?  And, perhaps more importantly, will these passes be eligible for renewal?



I don’t think that was a big upsurge but I would be surprised to see them renewed as now the system flags you and the new Digital card with the ND is pretty obvious. IMO More so than colors.


----------



## john7994

Actually the more I think on it, if I am purely looking at the daily revenue contribution per guest (as also guided by the park reservation system in taking up a spot at the park for that day), the impact of AP holders could be pretty steep in the bottom line to the expected return of shifting to dynamic pricing - especially for more popular dates (I think this is key). 

In saying this, there are many cohorts of AP holders from local to out of state to actual park attendance days per year. Only Disney knows the percent mix, but if I start to play with some extremes:

- An AP holder ($1,300 unlimited) that attends 20+ park days, and likely not to book Genie+ (and Park Hopper Included!) is effectively representing a $65 (or lower) revenue contribution on a per guest / day for just their "Ticket".  
- This is opposed to non-AP -$64 (with the cheapest 10 day, multi-day discount and Park Hopper applied) - this is the lowest possible cost option and gets steeper based on more popular dates / less days of ticket - best case example for Disney.
- Start tweaking the cohorts, factoring the lower level AP types, more daily attendance and the differences only steepen outside of Disney's favor - as it would for more popular times of the year (except for the blackout specific dates - but seasonality still applies)
- And, this is before Genie+ purchases, food, beverage, merch, and lodging options - all of which can vary


----------



## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well, I can see I have some reading to do to wrap my head around understanding dynamic daily pricing. I thought I understood on and off season, but dynamic daily? Wow.


This isn't that complicated of a concept.  It just means tickets (and maybe G+) will be priced like airline tickets, so changing all the time.

It's easy to see that APs don't fit well into that model, especially if they have to hold space for AP holders, like the lawsuit claimed.

There are a lot of middle ground solutions I would be happy with, like an on-site only AP.  Or a heavily blacked out AP, like the Pirate or Pixie.


----------



## Disney mac

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well, I can see I have some reading to do to wrap my head around understanding dynamic daily pricing.  I thought I understood on and off season, but dynamic daily?  Wow.  Genie+ reservations on "day of"?  Could be you uncovered something, John.  Annual discount sales could be the antithesis of that.  Did you mean more by "raised the flag"?  It is a whole new administration.
> 
> Taking the long view though, life does have a way of smoothing things out in the long run.


This guys seems to love everything I hate.  Dynamic pricing is where I draw the line.  I stopped flying, going to baseball games, etc.  
charge me a price and let me decide if I’m going to pay it.  
Genie+ and all is stands for is what will end so much of any perceived “magic”.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## BillPA

I would love to see the A-E tickets come back. Now you pay about $125 a day to get on at best 5-6 rides. so $20-$25 for a 3 minute ride.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Anecdotally, I have seen in the Canadian Disney groups that some have bought the UK 14-day passes. No proof of UK residency required. I've never tried this myself but it seems if you can buy it, its yours. There's no check at the gate / Guest Services the way there was for the Canadian discounted tickets.


----------



## cheryl.UK

Well there are plenty Americans living over here in the UK who do buy 14 day passes. My guess is that as long as they are sent to a UK address then our US cousins may well get away with this one.  Years ago I bought a 'Fun in the Sun' 28 day pass which was only meant for a few mainland European countries.  I had it mailed to a friend in France who just mailed it over to me.


----------



## Royal Consort

SleeplessInTO said:


> Anecdotally, I have seen in the Canadian Disney groups that some have bought the UK 14-day passes. No proof of UK residency required. I've never tried this myself but it seems if you can buy it, its yours. There's no check at the gate / Guest Services the way there was for the Canadian discounted tickets.


I'm Australian and I've been buying the UK tickets for over 6 years. They will not sell them to guests in the US though due to legal arrangements. Used the 14 day ticket last month during our stay


----------



## Mexacajun

cheryl.UK said:


> Well there are plenty Americans living over here in the UK who do buy 14 day passes. My guess is that as long as they are sent to a UK address then our US cousins may well get away with this one.  Years ago I bought a 'Fun in the Sun' 28 day pass which was only meant for a few mainland European countries.  I had it mailed to a friend in France who just mailed it over to me.


How many days do you to use the 14 days in?


----------



## Madame

Mexacajun said:


> How many days do you to use the 14 days in?


18 I believe.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Mexacajun

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Eighteen.  Link.  https://www.disneyholidays.co.uk/walt-disney-world/tickets/
> They are also selling the 10/25/22 to 12/31/22 for 499£.
> 
> I wouldn't do it though.  It would be just my luck to do something like this and then be kicked out of Disney parks forever on a behavior violation.


Wait, so all I have to do is either know someone in the UK that can buy it for me or buy it while I am in the UK on business travel and I can get these tickets?


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Mexacajun

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Don't ask me!  I just saw the ad on the internet.  Anyway, I personally would not do it.


I didn’t say I would do it, I asked what is possible.


----------



## Madame

Mexacajun said:


> I didn’t say I would do it, I asked what is possible.


I imagine you could get a Canadian to do it for you too.  I’ve never personally used these tickets (we usually do 4-5 park days max), but if APs go away permanently a longer trip once every 2 years could work if we decide to keep our points…


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## Memorymakerfor4

Holy cow. I just spent more of my day reading this entire thread than I care to admit. The kids have trashed the house and I need a drink.

Please Disney, give us a resort stay pass.


----------



## redboat45

I'll never understand why people outside of the USA get a better deal on tickets than those that live here.


----------



## EilonwyWanderer

They're paying a LOT more to get here.


----------



## redboat45

EilonwyWanderer said:


> They're paying a LOT more to get here.


so


----------



## bwvBound

john7994 said:


> Actually the more I think on it, if I am purely looking at the daily revenue contribution per guest (as also guided by the park reservation system in taking up a spot at the park for that day), the impact of AP holders could be pretty steep in the bottom line to the expected return of shifting to dynamic pricing - especially for more popular dates (I think this is key).
> 
> In saying this, there are many cohorts of AP holders from local to out of state to actual park attendance days per year. Only Disney knows the percent mix, but if I start to play with some extremes:
> 
> - An AP holder ($1,300 unlimited) that attends 20+ park days, and likely not to book Genie+ (and Park Hopper Included!) is effectively representing a $65 (or lower) revenue contribution on a per guest / day for just their "Ticket".
> - This is opposed to non-AP -$64 (with the cheapest 10 day, multi-day discount and Park Hopper applied) - this is the lowest possible cost option and gets steeper based on more popular dates / less days of ticket - best case example for Disney.
> - Start tweaking the cohorts, factoring the lower level AP types, more daily attendance and the differences only steepen outside of Disney's favor - as it would for more popular times of the year (except for the blackout specific dates - but seasonality still applies)
> - And, this is before Genie+ purchases, food, beverage, merch, and lodging options - all of which can vary


Ok, I'm the AP holder mentioned above:  $1400 (DLR Magic Key, Dream) and I'll use it 20+ park days.   FWIW, this level of AP also covers my parking ($30/day) ... but I only use Disney parking on half of our visits and had never used parking before  this pass.

Our Disney park patterns, on both coasts, demonstrate increased spending.  Because we visit so often, we can spend more time (and $$$) on dining.  Rather than grabbing a Quick Service meal while running between attractions, we slow down to enjoy at least one Table Service meal each day.  We book at least one "high end" meal per trip.  And we often book a special event -- like dining with the Animal Keepers or a behind-the-scenes tour.  

Lately we've been laughing at our Disney spending, "But look how much we _saved_!"  (Referring to the savings from our AP discount, right??)  Of course, that growing bucket of "savings" simply means we are spending more and more and more ...


----------



## Sandisw

redboat45 said:


> so


Disney chooses to offer them better deals to entice them to come. Many come for two to three weeks at a time which means once here, they spend a lot 

Disney must feel it’s worth it in the end.


----------



## john7994

bwvBound said:


> Ok, I'm the AP holder mentioned above:  $1400 (DLR Magic Key, Dream) and I'll use it 20+ park days.   FWIW, this level of AP also covers my parking ($30/day) ... but I only use Disney parking on half of our visits and had never used parking before  this pass.
> 
> Our Disney park patterns, on both coasts, demonstrate increased spending.  Because we visit so often, we can spend more time (and $$$) on dining.  Rather than grabbing a Quick Service meal while running between attractions, we slow down to enjoy at least one Table Service meal each day.  We book at least one "high end" meal per trip.  And we often book a special event -- like dining with the Animal Keepers or a behind-the-scenes tour.
> 
> Lately we've been laughing at our Disney spending, "But look how much we _saved_!"  (Referring to the savings from our AP discount, right??)  Of course, that growing bucket of "savings" simply means we are spending more and more and more ...


We would be in the same group as you - if an AP was available for us to purchase as we are out of state. The "value" discussion of the AP holder is complicated because there are so many types. I would imagine, if you what you describe is anything like us, we would be "desirable" despite the "loss" on the ticket savings.


----------



## Sandisw

john7994 said:


> We would be in the same group as you - if an AP was available for us to purchase as we are out of state. The "value" discussion of the AP holder is complicated because there are so many types. I would imagine, if you what you describe is anything like us, we would be "desirable" despite the "loss" on the ticket savings.



I Think this highlights that there are just a lot of different types of guests that can benefit from some level of AP or yearly multi day ticket and why it’s not as simple as giving this group or that group access 

Hopefully what we see is maybe some different options under a yearly program that meets more peoples needs. I love having the AP but probably would never use more than 40 days and most years probably more like 30.


----------



## bwvBound

john7994 said:


> We would be in the same group as you - if an AP was available for us to purchase as we are out of state. The "value" discussion of the AP holder is complicated because there are so many types. I would imagine, if you what you describe is anything like us, *we would be "desirable" despite the "loss" on the ticket savings.*


On the bolded section:  During DLR's long closure, they spoke of a completely new AP program.  From the fluffy marketing terms, it sounded like tiered benefits based on the consumer's loyalty to Disney.  I figured we'd be in a _great_ position as "desirable":  Legacy passholder at closing; D23 Charter Member; DCL Gold; Disney+; and let's not forget -- DVC Direct with a healthy bucket of points. 

By now they should be practically _giving_ me a pass with the invite: Spend!  Spend!  Spend!  (Yes, I'm being sarcastic ... )


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Sandisw said:


> Disney chooses to offer them better deals to entice them to come. Many come for two to three weeks at a time which means once here, they spend a lot
> 
> Disney must feel it’s worth it in the end.


I agree with “so”.
By your theory, someone traveling from Anchorage should pay less than someone driving 10 miles from Orlando… but they don’t.

I don’t get it either.


----------



## john7994

bwvBound said:


> On the bolded section:  During DLR's long closure, they spoke of a completely new AP program.  From the fluffy marketing terms, it sounded like tiered benefits based on the consumer's loyalty to Disney.  I figured we'd be in a _great_ position as "desirable":  Legacy passholder at closing; D23 Charter Member; DCL Gold; Disney+; and let's not forget -- DVC Direct with a healthy bucket of points.
> 
> At this point they should be practically _giving_ me a pass with the invite: Spend!  Spend!  Spend!  (Yes, I'm being sarcastic ... )


So glad you said that ... I feel EXACTLY the same way about it. We are D23 Gold, Disney +, DVC Direct, Disney Card Holders, and RunDisney Club Members!


----------



## john7994

Sandisw said:


> I Think this highlights that there are just a lot of different types of guests that can benefit from some level of AP or yearly multi day ticket and why it’s not as simple as giving this group or that group access
> 
> Hopefully what we see is maybe some different options under a yearly program that meets more peoples needs. I love having the AP but probably would never use more than 40 days and most years probably more like 30.


A little parity (being out of state but frequent visitors), spend recognition, and loyalty back would be nice


----------



## Sandisw

Maistre Gracey said:


> I agree with “so”.
> By your theory, someone traveling from Anchorage should pay less than someone driving 10 miles from Orlando… but they don’t.
> 
> I don’t get it either.



Not sure what there is not to get. Disney has decided those people get different deals because they feel it makes good business sense to do so.

Not my theory..just saying that is what Disney is doing.  They do it all the time,, different groups get different things..way most business work these day. Fact of life…

Oh, and if Disney decided to give Alaska residents a different deal then they do me as New Yorker, then that’s up to them


----------



## Sandisw

john7994 said:


> A little parity (being out of state but frequent visitors), spend recognition, and loyalty back would be nice



Sure, it would be great to see them take a different approach but I just don’t  let those bother things  me..whether it’s Disney or any other business I am involved with…because in the end, I don’t control them. I only control how I respond to what they have done.

I recognize that in the scheme of things I am no more or less important than any other Disney guest.


----------



## john7994

Sandisw said:


> Sure, it would be great to see them take a different approach but I just don’t get let those things  me..whether it’s Disney or any other business I am involved with…because in the end, I don’t control them. I only control how I respond to what they have done.


Agreed, we are locked and loaded for three more trips over the next 7 months ... so gonna roll with it for now


----------



## mistysue

Sandisw said:


> Not sure what there is not to get. Disney has decided those people get different deals because they feel it makes good business sense to do so.
> 
> Not my theory..just saying that is what Disney is doing.  They do it all the time,, different groups get different things..way most business work these day. Fact of life…
> 
> Oh, and if Disney decided to give Alaska residents a different deal then they do me as New Yorker, then that’s up to them


I think everyone comprehends that they decided to give UK guests better ticket options. It's just many of us believe it's stupid and makes no sense. I mean they're getting discounted tickets, along with discounted room and many years free dining to top it in off. 

Meanwhile a few years ago my family was going for 2 week trips in higher cost rooms, paying for all of our TS meals with more expensive tickets and fewer park days. But those UK people are more valuable in spite of our spending more to get less.


----------



## BillPA

I miss Mr. Eisner


----------



## Royal Consort

Mexacajun said:


> Wait, so all I have to do is either know someone in the UK that can buy it for me or buy it while I am in the UK on business travel and I can get these tickets?


My understanding is you cannot be a US resident and purchase the tickets.


----------



## Royal Consort

mistysue said:


> I think everyone comprehends that they decided to give UK guests better ticket options. It's just many of us believe it's stupid and makes no sense. I mean they're getting discounted tickets, along with discounted room and many years free dining to top it in off.
> 
> Meanwhile a few years ago my family was going for 2 week trips in higher cost rooms, paying for all of our TS meals with more expensive tickets and fewer park days. But those UK people are more valuable in spite of our spending more to get less.


Yeh the deal was great. We travelled on free dining and discounted accommodation for years prior to buying DVC as it didn't really make much financial sense to do so at the time. Now the situation has changed a bit. 

But it isnt stupid and it does make sense. Most Americans get a week of annual leave. Disney wants to get the most out of you guys in the short time you have. The UK get longer vacations and Disney wants them to stay longer, on site, and spend. It is not unusual to find UK guests staying 2-3 weeks at a time. The average American doesn't do that. To ensure the guest remains at Disney these deals are offered to UK guests. Captive audience.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Royal Consort said:


> Yeh the deal was great. We travelled on free dining and discounted accommodation for years prior to buying DVC as it didn't really make much financial sense to do so at the time. Now the situation has changed a bit.
> 
> But it isnt stupid and it does make sense. *Most Americans get a week of annual leave.* Disney wants to get the most out of you guys in the short time you have. The UK get longer vacations and Disney wants them to stay longer, on site, and spend. It is not unusual to find UK guests staying 2-3 weeks at a time. The average American doesn't do that. To ensure the guest remains at Disney these deals are offered to UK guests. Captive audience.



Wow…. What are they teaching you folks over there??


----------



## Madame

In general most UK families traveled in August when attendance was lower (southern states had gone back to school & face of the sun heat).  I’m not sure about their patterns since Covid, but Disney was using that ticket & free dining to fill rooms & parks during a traditionally slow period.


----------



## kmorlock

Everyone has a threshold that they will accept Disney’s “changes” until said threshold is reached and they feel the impact on their own vacation experience.  What happens when that threshold or line in the sand is crossed?  No longer can Disney tout being so family friendly when they strip Magical Express, take away dining plans, charge top dollar for a 3 year old, take fast pass away and institute a system you have to leave to chance until 7AM every day in vacation and the last straw is the possibility of AP’s becoming obsolete?!!!  Clearly the
Cheapek,/D’Amaro regime is out to gut everything that made Disney a top vacation choice especially for families and attach a hefty price tag to anything and everything they can.  I’m no expert but, while that might bring in short term revenue especially since ppl are excited to travel, long term, guests will burn out and choose other vacation options.  The post Covid closure surge in attendance and spending will wane eventually. 

The parks have been encouraging us for years to get out and explore the world.  Maybe it’s time we listen?


----------



## cheryl.UK

Most Brits tend to stick to school holidays because of the fines for taking your kids out of school.  These aren't being imposed as rigorously at the moment but no doubt that will end in September. Our school holidays are 2 weeks at Christmas, 2 weeks at Easter and 6 in the summer + 3 half term holidays of 1 week.  Summer is usually the cheapest option for us with our children going back around the 1st September, although this year a lot of children are going back on the 5th.  In 2019 when our friends last went, they had 2 weeks in August in the CBR with free dining and a 4 x 2 week passes and flying coach.  It cost them £10,000 which in dollars at the time was $13.650. I'm not sure how that stacks up against what you guys could have got during a free dining offer.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Madame

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well, the UK 14 day sale for 499 gbp I posted was for the period of October 25th through December 31, 2022.  So those guests are busy booking the holiday season right now.  Prime time!


Yes, but it’s a sale for a reason.  Covid has skewed everything and I’m sure that if travel patterns don’t return to normal, that Disney will react accordingly wrt ultimate tickets.  

We haven’t seen a Canadian offer in ages (not that they were ever fabulous since free dining went away) & our dollar is almost always 20-30 cents less.  The offers were always for periods Canadians typically traveled and were quieter times at Disney, like mid to late Aug.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Madame

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes, but it has become very, very clear to us that Disney hates locals at the same time.  They are so focused on filling those 40,000 hotel rooms and making revenue deals for extended park hours with nearby non-Disney owned resort hotels.  Chapek clearly makes management decisions to block locals from attending.  Disney World has become a hotel chain with theme parks attached.  We cannot even get a decent AP!
> 
> The topic of discussion this morning over coffee on the lanai is moving away from the tourist traffic, noise, resort area prices for food, housing, gas, the Florida heat and all things Disney brings with it that we put up with.  Cash it out and find someplace better for retirement.  Not paying for any more trips for kids, grands and others either.  Early discussions, but occurring nonetheless.


They’re definitely being short-sighted.  They think treating the locals who would potentially see them through the next economic downturn like disposable trash will never come back to haunt them….  I think they’re mistaken, but being forward-thinking is not a valued trait in present-day late-stage terminal capitalism….


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## redboat45

mistysue said:


> I think everyone comprehends that they decided to give UK guests better ticket options. It's just many of us believe it's stupid and makes no sense. I mean they're getting discounted tickets, along with discounted room and many years free dining to top it in off.
> 
> Meanwhile a few years ago my family was going for 2 week trips in higher cost rooms, paying for all of our TS meals with more expensive tickets and fewer park days. But those UK people are more valuable in spite of our spending more to get less.


exactly.  I know why Disney does it and don't agree with it.  I think it's very stupid and short sighted for Disney to do it.  But that's like all their decisions lately.


----------



## redboat45

cheryl.UK said:


> Most Brits tend to stick to school holidays because of the fines for taking your kids out of school.  These aren't being imposed as rigorously at the moment but no doubt that will end in September. Our school holidays are 2 weeks at Christmas, 2 weeks at Easter and 6 in the summer + 3 half term holidays of 1 week.  Summer is usually the cheapest option for us with our children going back around the 1st September, although this year a lot of children are going back on the 5th.  In 2019 when our friends last went, they had 2 weeks in August in the CBR with free dining and a 4 x 2 week passes and flying coach.  It cost them £10,000 which in dollars at the time was $13.650. I'm not sure how that stacks up against what you guys could have got during a free dining offer.


they fine your for taking your kids out of school?!  CRAZY!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## babydoll65

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Does anybody recall Disney ever offering US based guests a free dining offer?  I do not think I have ever seen that.


Actually Disney offered free dining for US guests for many years. I think I got free dining every September for 10 years in a row.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


----------



## cheryl.UK

redboat45 said:


> they fine your for taking your kids out of school?!  CRAZY!


Yep.  If I remember rightly it's £60 per child per parent per week. Two parents taking 2 kids out of school for 2 weeks costs £480 or $600 but this doubles if you don't pay within 21 days.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Hmmm.  Learn something new everyday.  I guess I was not watching the on-site packages.  Thank you.



I got it in 2006 for the first time and did it every year until we become DVC owners.

The last year it was offered was 2019..so it was a good long run for US residents and only stopped with Covid.

Prior to that we did some great deals..pay 4 nights and tickets and get everything for 7 nights.  It was great

So, over the years, they have definitely offered  things.  

Offering overseas residents something different makes sense to me I guess.  As I said, no different than all the other specialty groups that get something.

Even the Sorderer pass is for a select group and plenty of cash guests who spend as much if not more for trips over time.

Of course I would never turn down an opportunity to save money but I can’t be upset that they offer specials to target audiences either, especially those overseas.


----------



## RoseGold

I never go to WDW on weekends, it’s too crowded for me.  I think it would be nice if the Tuesday ticket were cheaper than the Saturday ticket.  That totally makes sense to me — and maybe someone who travels like me could see a decrease in ticket prices?

If Disney gets rid of the APs, they’re going to have to fill the low volume days somehow, and that’s a way to do it.  Plenty of people would plan around the cheap Tuesday tickets.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## john7994

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Maybe it is.  After 70+ years of Disney being my first choice, I think they are right.  But if we make this mega expensive decision to liquidate our Florida home with those transaction costs, my new choices will not be branded Disney. * Being on the receiving end of hatred* from a commercial company for just being a local who bought an annual pass they created is a very significant emotional experience.  After my close look at the  annual passes with such restricted number of park reservation holds and the sneaky Pete management tool of park reservations with their unilaterally controlled buckets to add unavailability days, *it is as clear as a bell that Disney despises local guests. * From a corporation!


Treating your viewpoint with the respect it deserves, and I believe loyalty is important as well, I wonder if the locals in FLA from the AP experience weren't just "collateral damage" (please forgive the expression) due to changing business circumstances in implementing (static) dynamic daily pricing, holding over the park reservation system and unanticipated surged demand. I think there is agreement across the board that current Disney Leadership over amplified an opportunistic strategy in revenue recovery  - in context of earnings calls - there is an expectation from analysts on understanding their recovery plan post pandemic that can't go unanswered either. Nonetheless, lots of unforced errors - on that score.

Given that Disney re-introduced all APs in September 2021 and quickly rescinded all but the FLA Pixie Pass months later presumably due to unexpected levels of demand, might suggest less of a targeting of locals and perhaps an "oh-***" moment about the future demand on the park itself. Had Disney done the reverse and kept only the out of state option (which I suppose locals could still buy), it might have been a clearer message as described. Subsequently and separately, I think the litigation (December?) in Disneyland played a behind the scenes role at WDW no doubt in a similar timeframe.

Forced with finite park reservations available (of their own decision/design) and guest type economics, I think Disney went with the natural position of targeting more lucrative customers (supported in public commentary by Leadership as we discussed). Again, I don't think this was to express hatred of locals in the mix, but an expedient approach to maximize recovery. As a destination, WDW draws more non-locals (than perhaps Disneyland) with the infrastructure to support longer on-property stays. Yes, it's opportunistic and seems disloyal, but if I were a business owner, I would have to weigh heavily the opportunity presented.

In any case and to reiterate - not saying the current situation is what it should be or minimizing the loyalty of local park supporters through the years. The park reservation is a primary culprit as we talked about, and it's created a significantly larger problem for Disney than I think they anticipated on a going forward basis by deciding to keep it. Park demand (at least for now), is a significant culprit as well and only exacerbates the issue. Thus, spurring the top to bottom revamp of whatever APs may or may not be in the future. I still anticipate a local component - simply because it's in their best interest to do so.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Thank you, John.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> They can obviously target whom they want.  Their park.  The flip side is they deter whom they want too.
> 
> I never bought So-Cal or Florida Resident passes until forced to this year.    Never liked their restrictions that were always hostile to even professionals who had office hours to keep.  So, their in-state specials were pretty illusory as far as favoritism or real value.  I was off-site so no packages or specials.  Now, having looked into the bucket system and seeing specials offered to other groups and recalling the past is information valuable to me.  A magnet is not going to compensate.  Watch their next APs remove free parking.  How do you think that will impact locals?


I am sure that will be a huge hit…the question will then be how long will it take for them to realize that it was a mistake and adjust.

Like adding parking fee to the resorts for cash guests…did it do want they wanted it to do…meaning bring in the revenue they had hoped? Or did less people drive? Or worse, stop staying onsite?

Right now, they are obviously not seeing the impacts of loss of guests…at some point, we have to assume it will happen…and then they wlll have to decide how to get more back, especially locals an other AP holders that help during down times.

If this new program is modified enough to make locals and other think twice, then Disney will either have to deal with the loss…or make it more attractive again.  At that point, the big question will be whether it is too late.


----------



## RoseGold

It’s likely the local component is part of the agreements for all the building and special tax structures.   I agree it’s a pretty sad offering right now, even for Florida locals.

I thought eliminating the after-5 Epcot pass was a bummer for locals, but I can see why they did it, now that Epcot is the shiny new park again.


----------



## Sandisw

RoseGold said:


> It’s likely the local component is part of the agreements for all the building and special tax structures.   I agree it’s a pretty sad offering right now, even for Florida locals.
> 
> I thought eliminating the after-5 Epcot pass was a bummer for locals, but I can see why they did it, now that Epcot is the shiny new park again.



Or was it due thr the park reservation system and the caps on capacity? Cant offer someone a pass for after 4 or 5 pm when you can’t guarantee how it’s going to work with that system.


----------



## john7994

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Thank you, John.


I remain a fan and appreciate your contributions!


----------



## pianomanzano

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Does anybody recall Disney ever offering US based guests a free dining offer?  I do not think I have ever seen that.


They used to offer free dining plans in September. First time we stayed on property back in 2013 was because they offered a free dining plan. We stayed at pop century, which I think at the time offered the quick service plan for free and we paid a little bit more to upgrade to the standard.

Edit: here's a link to a blogpost describing the free dining offer https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2013/05/06/news-2013-disney-world-free-dining-offer/


----------



## Brian Noble

Sandisw said:


> Oh, and if Disney decided to give Alaska residents a different deal then they do me as New Yorker, then that’s up to them


They have from time to time offered resort discounts to e.g. Georgia residents. It's not unprecedented.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Best way to control mobs of people:  "Bread and circuses.”


----------



## npatellye

Ms Bibbidi said:


> That used to be the case in the US.  There were truancy laws.  Parents could be held responsible.  It was considered child abuse to deprive the child of education.


It’s still the case with truancy laws and excessive absences in the many states and districts. After absence 9, even if they’re all illness related, our district sends out truancy letters informing parents they may be referred to the state truancy board if there are additional absences. When my oldest was in kindergarten (2018-2019 academic year), she caught the flu and missed 8 days of school for the flu, that was after having had to stay home for 1 day due to a fever (district policy is they need to be fever free for 24 hours without medication to return to school). I received that letter for her absences. My husband was livid but it’s the policy.


----------



## john7994

RoseGold said:


> I never go to WDW on weekends, it’s too crowded for me.  I think it would be nice if the Tuesday ticket were cheaper than the Saturday ticket.  That totally makes sense to me — and maybe someone who travels like me could see a decrease in ticket prices?
> 
> If Disney gets rid of the APs, they’re going to have to fill the low volume days somehow, and that’s a way to do it.  Plenty of people would plan around the cheap Tuesday tickets.


*Update - I had the park hopper option on the original post*

Looking at advanced (1 day) ticket cost per day (below), starting in August and more pronounced in September through the end of the year, Tuesday's are "cheaper" than Saturdays (as are Wednesday and Thursday). Not blow your socks off to be sure - but @$30.




But, when you go to a 7 day (below) and all the way down to a 3 day ticket discounts, the difference evaporates - So of course, at 1-day and 2-day, the corresponding individual day rate is more costly.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

If I recall correctly, free dining was far from free. 
You needed to pay full rack rate for your room to get it, or you could generally get a sizable discount if you did not opt for free dining. 

Correct me if I’m wrong….


----------



## john7994

In Georgia, If your child is charged with truancy (more than 5 unexcused absences), you could face penalties. These include *community service, a fine between $25 and $100 and/or up to 30 days in jail*. Your child could* lose his or her driver's license or be unable to get a work permit*. Obviously, what is considered unexcused / truant is a different story ...


----------



## Mexacajun

Maistre Gracey said:


> If I recall correctly, free dining was far from free.
> You needed to pay full rack rate for your room to get it, or you could generally get a sizable discount if you did not opt for free dining.
> 
> Correct me if I’m wrong….


You are correct. No discount on room or ticket. Used it a couple times but I have a large family so it still paid out.


----------



## Sandisw

Maistre Gracey said:


> If I recall correctly, free dining was far from free.
> You needed to pay full rack rate for your room to get it, or you could generally get a sizable discount if you did not opt for free dining.
> 
> Correct me if I’m wrong….



Yes, you paid rack rate for the room, but the dining plan was free and for many families…ours a family of five..made it a much better deal than room only discounts offered for the same time.

The initial plans even included gratuity so we that first trip we spend nothing for food and Non alcoholic drinks.


Like all other discounts, it depended on which saved more money…but for us, the free dining promotion always worked better given the size of our family.


----------



## mlayton14

Why do folks feel entitled to discounts ? The AP is a discount plain and simple. Please don’t throw around the term loyalty - people don’t goto Disney because they are supporting a cause, they go because they see the value in their dollar spent. No one is shutting anyone out of the parks - you just have to pay for it. If Disney experiences issues filling their parks in the future (inevitable) there will be discounts galore.


----------



## Ms.Minnie

BillPA said:


> I miss Mr. Eisner



Don't know what you had till it's gone?


----------



## DVCsloth

mlayton14 said:


> Why do folks feel entitled to discounts ? The AP is a discount plain and simple. Please don’t throw around the term loyalty - people don’t goto Disney because they are supporting a cause, they go because they see the value in their dollar spent. No one is shutting anyone out of the parks - you just have to pay for it. If Disney experiences issues filling their parks in the future (inevitable) there will be discounts galore.


Not 100% sure, but if I remember correctly, that part of the agreement of starting Reedy Creek was that Florida residents would get some sort of discounted ticket offered to them.


----------



## Sandisw

DVCsloth said:


> Not 100% sure, but if I remember correctly, that part of the agreement of starting Reedy Creek was that Florida residents would get some sort of discounted ticket offered to them.



I’m not sure about that since back then it was a whole different structures.  

But definitely possible that since it was created and over the years those came into play as more was actually developed?


----------



## tjkraz

mlayton14 said:


> Why do folks feel entitled to discounts ? The AP is a discount plain and simple. Please don’t throw around the term loyalty - people don’t goto Disney because they are supporting a cause, they go because they see the value in their dollar spent. No one is shutting anyone out of the parks - you just have to pay for it. If Disney experiences issues filling their parks in the future (inevitable) there will be discounts galore.


Entitled? No, of course not. 

But as a business-minded individual, I think there's a real risk in alienating your most rabid customers if it's done in an attempt to maximize revenue. I'm skeptical that the Disney Parks can flourish by chasing the infrequent guest while making the frequent visitor pay identical rates. 

There's probably a statement to be made about how APs tend to experience the parks in a given day vs MYW guests. I suspect those using MYW tickets are much more likely to be dawn-to-dusk visitor, experiencing every attraction they are able to maximize the value of their $140+ ticket. Passholders may ride 2-3 things and be content. Although both are counted as a visit, the two groups aren't utilizing park resources identically. 

I agree there would be "discounts galore" if Disney tries to go down that road. Personally I'd rather not see it reach that point. Some business--some consumers--will be incredibly difficult to win back.


----------



## BeachClub2014

mlayton14 said:


> Why do folks feel entitled to discounts ? The AP is a discount plain and simple. Please don’t throw around the term loyalty - people don’t goto Disney because they are supporting a cause, they go because they see the value in their dollar spent. No one is shutting anyone out of the parks - you just have to pay for it. If Disney experiences issues filling their parks in the future (inevitable) there will be discounts galore.


Some folks may feel a sense of entitlement, certainly. I am willing to bet that many AP consumers, if not most, folks have become accustomed to their AP's as part of the overall "value" evaluation of giving Disney our vacation dollars. The entire premise of DVC is to lock in current pricing for access to deluxe resorts into the future, which also factors into the value proposition. Other programs such as free/reduced dining, magical express, etc. have also factored into the value proposition. It all matters. So, it's not a question of entitlement but another piece to the erosion of value.

At least for us.


----------



## Sandisw

BeachClub2014 said:


> Some folks may feel a sense of entitlement, certainly. I am willing to bet that many AP consumers, if not most, folks have become accustomed to their AP's as part of the overall "value" evaluation of giving Disney our vacation dollars. The entire premise of DVC is to lock in current pricing for access to deluxe resorts into the future, which also factors into the value proposition. Other programs such as free/reduced dining, magical express, etc. have also factored into the value proposition. It all matters. So, it's not a question of entitlement but another piece to the erosion of value.
> 
> At least for us.



 I agree that I think its more disappointment and frustration (then entitlement).  Most just believe that decisions being made changes to how one will travel to WDW as an owner of DVC.

As mentioned by many, one will have to figure out which aspects are still workable for your own situation and which are not.  We did not look at all those other features like Magical express, resale value, etc. as part of it when we decided.  We simply said for X dollars a year, we go 5 to 6 nights to the CR.  With a typical discount, we spend Y on the hotel room.  If I buy 180 DVC points, with MFs', how many nights do I get?  At the time, I got more in a studio and about the same in a 1 bedroom.

But, what has happened is we are no longer the same type of guest we once were and what AP's have done is allowed us, especially me, to pop in and out of a park for an hour or two without worrying about it....or hop a on plane and go for one night just to a preview.

It will see how things play out and as I mentioned earlier, depending on what DPEP does with any sort of AP/multiday over a year ticket program, they may or may not get back lost guests if it fails miserably for them...


----------



## BeachClub2014

T


Sandisw said:


> I agree that I think its more disappointment and frustration (then entitlement).  Most just believe that decisions being made changes to how one will travel to WDW as an owner of DVC.
> 
> As mentioned by many, one will have to figure out which aspects are still workable for your own situation and which are not.  We did not look at all those other features like Magical express, resale value, etc. as part of it when we decided.  We simply said for X dollars a year, we go 5 to 6 nights to the CR.  With a typical discount, we spend Y on the hotel room.  If I buy 180 DVC points, with MFs', how many nights do I get?  At the time, I got more in a studio and about the same in a 1 bedroom.
> 
> But, what has happened is we are no longer the same type of guest we once were and what AP's have done is allowed us, especially me, to pop in and out of a park for an hour or two without worrying about it....or hop a on plane and go for one night just to a preview.
> 
> It will see how things play out and as I mentioned earlier, depending on what DPEP does with any sort of AP/multiday over a year ticket program, they may or may not get back lost guests if it fails miserably for them...


Totally agree. 

Many of the changes have forced us to change how we do Disney, and not for the better. I don't want to derail this thread but it all matters. Having to make park reservations, not being able to park hop until after 2:00, Genie+, etc. have all been incremental changes that have forced us to change our approach to enjoying WDW and degraded the overall value. At least to us. We haven't reached the breaking point, but we are inching ever closer.

It isn't an entitlement, it's a disappointment.


----------



## MICKIMINI

BeachClub2014 said:


> T
> 
> Totally agree.
> 
> Many of the changes have forced us to change how we do Disney, and not for the better. I don't want to derail this thread but it all matters. Having to make park reservations, not being able to park hop until after 2:00, Genie+, etc. have all been incremental changes that have forced us to change our approach to enjoying WDW and degraded the overall value. At least to us. We haven't reached the breaking point, but we are inching ever closer.
> 
> It isn't an entitlement, it's a disappointment.


Just returning this past week, we were really annoyed with not being able to park hop until 2 pm.  We are AP owners.  It wasn't so much for DH and I as it was for our son and DIL who might be at another park first thing and were "stuck" and unable to meet us for lunch at our park.  They can get around much easier than we can.

There were days we had reservations and never went which made me feel a bit guilty, which is ridiculous, and also wonder if there are/will be repercussions for not going.  I never know how I will feel on any given day and not making park reservations likely means we won't be able to get a slot if I do feel well.  I just wonder about this situation and potential AP changes.  We can't be the only ones...


----------



## ParkHoppers

I would be shocked if Disney eliminated AP for Florida residents. With what is going on with Reedy Creek and Universal opening a new park this would not be the time to turn on the locals. Won’t happen IMO.


----------



## DVCsloth

The only reason we are passholders is because we bought into DVC "2014". We have kept our Florida resident passes current ever since. We sometimes alternate between passes though, depending on block out dates. We usually go between 10-14 days total and buying the pass comes out a little less $ but not usually a large amount. Hoping Disney gets back to normal soon and they are doing all this because they are trying to balance attendance and not about maximum profit. I realize it is an incredible amount of money and effort to keep this all going. We do spend quite an amount of money every year at Disney.


----------



## SL6827

Brian Noble said:


> They have from time to time offered resort discounts to e.g. Georgia residents. It's not unprecedented.


When?


----------



## lowlight

There is a part of me that wants Disney to not bring back AP's in the face of a looming economic disaster.  The story of Icarus resonated with me as a child.  My groceries are 40% more expensive than they were 2 years ago, heck some necessities are 2x as much (fuel, heating gas, etc).  Disney+, AP's, DVC, all types of discretionary spending, these are all the first things to go when I have to make financial cuts.  I know a lot of people here on the boards are extravagantly wealthy, but Disney keeps pushing the middle class away and I hope their wings melt.


----------



## john7994

SL6827 said:


> When?


On mousesavers.com 
I found a page with the historical discounts (rooms and dining packages). End of 2020 - pretty much the entire SE (including Georgia had discount promotions (15-30%) on rooms. The link and tables also showed a pretty consistent frequency of discounts for Florida Residents and AP holders:
https://www.mousesavers.com/historical-information-on-walt-disney-world-resort-discounts/


----------



## mlayton14

Totally understand and I think disappointment is certainly the right word for this situation


----------



## Hoppy-tn

This may have already been asked and answered but are club 33 members still allowed to get annual passes?
nevermind found my answer in previous comments in this thread.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

Hoppy-tn said:


> This may have already been asked and answered but are club 33 members still allowed to get annual passes?
> nevermind found my answer in previous comments in this thread.



The annual dues sure look a lot cheaper for club 33 with no AP's being offered currently and VIP tours difficult to book.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

cheryl.UK said:


> Does anyone remember back in September last year when they introduced the Sorcerers's pass how white card members were posting that they had been able to buy it? Did this partly cause the upsurge in pass sales? And, perhaps more importantly, will these passes be eligible for renewal?


No way.  There just aren’t that many white card holders to make this kind of impact.  Don’t forget that white card holders are only people who have purchased resale since, what, 2016ish?


----------



## corpcomp

DVCsloth said:


> The only reason we are passholders is because we bought into DVC "2014". We have kept our Florida resident passes current ever since. We sometimes alternate between passes though, depending on block out dates. We usually go between 10-14 days total and buying the pass comes out a little less $ but not usually a large amount. Hoping Disney gets back to normal soon and they are doing all this because they are trying to balance attendance and not about maximum profit. I realize it is an incredible amount of money and effort to keep this all going. We do spend quite an amount of money every year at Disney.


It is all about the money.


----------



## Disney mac

corpcomp said:


> It is all about the money.


It's all about Bob Chupack's money...his bonus....


----------



## Pooh12863

mlayton14 said:


> Why do folks feel entitled to discounts ? The AP is a discount plain and simple. Please don’t throw around the term loyalty - people don’t goto Disney because they are supporting a cause, they go because they see the value in their dollar spent. No one is shutting anyone out of the parks - you just have to pay for it. If Disney experiences issues filling their parks in the future (inevitable) there will be discounts galore.


You're right an AP is technically a discount, as is the Universal and
 Sea World/Busch Gardens AP's. I'm going to patronize the business that gives me the best value for my dollar. Your move Disney.


----------



## Brian Noble

I think that's a pretty rational approach. But, I suspect the response is: "We understand. It's been good having you. Let us know if you'd like to come back."

Maybe at some point in the future, there will be a new "invitation" in the form of some sort of bulk-admission discount. All things considered, I think that is likely to happen within the short-to-medium term.


----------



## BillPA

Disney stock is 70 points, 107.95, below this date last year 177.38, and no signs of improving. Something needs to be done, maybe get rid of paycheck!


----------



## Disney mac

BillPA said:


> Disney stock is 70 points, 107.95, below this date last year 177.38, and no signs of improving. Something needs to be done, maybe get rid of paycheck!


Hey don’t you worry, genie+, ILL, and park ticket dynamic pricing is on the way to save us all!!!
And when that is tapped out, watch out for the bathroom fees, the resort fees, the water fees, the wifi fees, the oxygen breathing fee, and the Chupack retirement fee.


----------



## SL6827

Disney mac said:


> Hey don’t you worry, genie+, ILL, and park ticket dynamic pricing is on the way to save us all!!!
> And when that is tapped out, watch out for the bathroom fees, the resort fees, the water fees, the wifi fees, the oxygen breathing fee, and the Chupack retirement fee.


Very true.


----------



## New Mouse

Disney mac said:


> Hey don’t you worry, genie+, ILL, and park ticket dynamic pricing is on the way to save us all!!!
> And when that is tapped out, watch out for the bathroom fees, the resort fees, the water fees, the wifi fees, the oxygen breathing fee, and the Chupack retirement fee.



Wifi already has a fee.  They just don't tell you about it.  But I could see them charging a fee on top of a fee Ala parking.


----------



## nuhusky123

BillPA said:


> Disney stock is 70 points, 107.95, below this date last year 177.38, and no signs of improving. Something needs to be done, maybe get rid of paycheck!


disney stock down 39% yoy
American Airlines stock down 32% yoy
 Netflix stock down 60% yoy
six flags entertainment stock down 38% yoy
AMC stock down 78%

and so the list goes on. Some stock performed worse than Disney, some better.

to say disney stocks position is unique to Disney though is 100% wrong. the market right now is overall bad, we are in a bear market and although not official yet, a recession

changing chapek won’t alter Disney stock price and I say this by being in the camp of really hating the guy. But your statement blaming chapek for the stock is not accurate and he can’t take all the blame for the losses.

 Although I do hope stock price alters ivory tower decision making and they realize they need dis loyalists and give us ap back


----------



## New Mouse

nuhusky123 said:


> disney stock down 39% yoy
> American Airlines stock down 32% yoy
> Netflix stock down 60% yoy
> six flags entertainment stock down 38% yoy
> AMC stock down 78%
> 
> and so the list goes on. Some stock performed worse than Disney, some better.
> 
> to say disney stocks position is unique to Disney though is 100% wrong. the market right now is overall bad, we are in a bear market and although not official yet, a recession
> 
> changing chapek won’t alter Disney stock price and I say this by being in the camp of really hating the guy. But your statement blaming chapek for the stock is not accurate and he can’t take all the blame for the losses.
> 
> Although I do hope stock price alters ivory tower decision making and they realize they need dis loyalists and give us ap back



The stock would still be down without chapek.  It wouldn't be far down without him.


----------



## nuhusky123

New Mouse said:


> The stock would still be down without chapek.  It wouldn't be far down without him.


Based on what data? Look I’m not defending the guy but look at Disney competitors 

disney is doing better than the competition so if I’m chapek I’m using that to defend my decisions. 

”dis board, the market sucks but we are only down 39% vs Netflix down 60%“


----------



## CraigInPA

Disney mac said:


> It's all about Bob Chupack's money...his bonus....



We figured out that Cheapunk's bonus worked out to about $1 for every mickey ice cream bar and pretzel sold at DL and WDW.


----------



## mistysue

CraigInPA said:


> We figured out that Cheapunk's bonus worked out to about $1 for every mickey ice cream bar and pretzel sold at DL and WDW.


Explains why they cost so much.


----------



## Ms.Minnie

Just checked Disney stock and at the moment it's down to $103.30.  Do you think it will go to $90?  Thinking of maybe buying more stock.  It is hard for me to believe that Disney won't rebound again.  It would be a real shame if Disney were to fail.  I think we would all miss Disney.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms.Minnie said:


> Just checked Disney stock and at the moment it's down to $103.30.  Do you think it will go to $90?  Thinking of maybe buying more stock.  It is hard for me to believe that Disney won't rebound again.  It would be a real shame if Disney were to fail.  I think we would all miss Disney.



If disney fails, there are going to be a lot bigger problems in this country than disney failing.


----------



## Ms.Minnie

WilsonFlyer said:


> If disney fails, there are going to be a lot bigger problems in this country than disney failing.



True, let's hope it doesn't happen.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Ms.Minnie said:


> Just checked Disney stock and at the moment it's down to $103.30.  Do you think it will go to $90?  Thinking of maybe buying more stock.  It is hard for me to believe that Disney won't rebound again.  It would be a real shame if Disney were to fail.  I think we would all miss Disney.


At 90 I would buy a lot of Disney stock.


----------



## Ms.Minnie

Robbie Cottam said:


> At 90 I would buy a lot of Disney stock.



During the pandemic it was in the $80s and I bought.


----------



## kilik64

If you have faith in Chapek, sure buy it up. They just ousted a former 20th century guy, and one of his lackeys is taking over tv content. More control and backing from the board. They like the revenue he's generating. Its a good bet short run,  and long run it doesnt matter as we're all dead in the long run anyways per Keynes


----------



## Robbie Cottam

kilik64 said:


> If you have faith in Chapek, sure buy it up. They just ousted a former 20th century guy, and one of his lackeys is taking over tv content. More control and backing from the board. They like the revenue he's generating. Its a good bet short run,  and long run it doesnt matter as we're all dead in the long run anyways per Keynes


I don’t have faith in him at all, for what I feel is the moves he has already made amount destroying relationships with his base customers….

However, Warren Buffet pointed out you buy into a falling market,  at the bargain price of 90, assuming the price hits 90, you really can’t go wrong….

No company is to big to fail, but you would have to try really hard to destroy Disney…. Drive the price down, cause a lot of bad PR…. But Disney will rebound


----------



## DeeBee3

Stock ended at $99 today. Market in general is falling fast. However, "never catch a falling knife", so be prepared for the price to go much further down. Whole economy is down the tubes and not going to get better this year, IMO. If you put that into your purchase decision, then you won't be surprised!

It was in the upper $70s during covid lockdowns.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Just a head's up.  The news is reporting Chapek fired Peter Rice.  But, towards the end of the CNBC video, the analyst said the board came out in support of Chapek.  AND THEN she said Chapek's contract is up next February.  Normally, if the board was going to extend a Disney CEO's contract they tell him that a year ahead of time.  She said this Board has NOT informed Chapek that they are going to extend his contract beyond February 2023.  

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/09/disney-fires-tv-content-chief-peter-rice-source-says.html


----------



## Disney mac

There’s an easy way to get rid of Chupek and this feeling everyone has…
If at every nighttime show at every park, imagine if the entire crowd started chanting “Fire Chupek” or “Chupek sucks”…


----------



## john7994

Disney mac said:


> There’s an easy way to get rid of Chupek and this feeling everyone has…
> If at every nighttime show at every park, imagine if the entire crowd started chanting “Fire Chupek” or “Chupek sucks”…


Cuz that would make for a better experience for everyone - how about people that don't like Chapek, just don't go or spend the money?


----------



## Disney mac

Nah, they’d just raise the price on everyone else to make more money.   A loud in their face chant for 1 week….changes would happen.


----------



## john7994

Disney mac said:


> Nah, they’d just raise the price on everyone else to make more money.   A loud in their face chant for 1 week….changes would happen.


Yeah, definitely a problem. So your answer is to give them more money to enter the park and ruin other people's experiences to express your displeasure at Disney ruining your experience ...


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Disney mac said:


> There’s an easy way to get rid of Chupek and this feeling everyone has…
> If at every nighttime show at every park, imagine if the entire crowd started chanting “Fire Chupek” or “Chupek sucks”…


Sorry, but I too veto this idea.  The parks are not and should not be somebody’s stage for any cause.  Not even for 150,000 people. Not even if the issue involves Disney itself. 

John is right.  The others guests are there to enjoy Disney.  It is not the right of other guests to deliberately trash their experience for any cause.

The news says the morale in some of the Disney workplaces is just rock bottom right now.  Bullying and non-support. Queuing for the next higher job.  These are serious workplace problems.  It will take a massive effort for any CEO to right that ship.


----------



## BamaGuy44

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Sorry, but I too veto this idea.  The parks are not and should not be somebody’s stage for any cause.  Not even for 150,000 people. Not even if the issue involves Disney itself.
> 
> John is right.  The others guests are there to enjoy Disney.  It is not the right of other guests to deliberately trash their experience for any cause.
> 
> The news says the morale in some of the Disney workplaces is just rock bottom right now.  Bullying and non-support. Queuing for the next higher job.  These are serious workplace problems.  It will take a massive effort for any CEO to right that ship.


Agree 100%. I don’t like Chapek or the current direction either. But an organized ruining of the shows or anything similar would be gross. There’s a time and place to make your voice heard as a customer, and that ain’t it.

In fact the whole idea of customers trying to bully a company into firing someone is gross. Especially for frivolous luxury items like theme parks. I mean come on.


----------



## Disney mac

Hey I just said if you want him gone and problems brought to a head how to do it.  The problems are only going to increase the next year…as was said morale is bad and going to get worse before it improves.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

Robbie Cottam said:


> At 90 I would buy a lot of Disney stock.


Get ready, might get there soon


----------



## DL1WDW2

I think the pricing of DVC is the only “stock” price Disney “values” and controls.


----------



## nuhusky123

So the big questions is now that we are officially in a bear market with a recession likely to follow. Will Disney react

raising prices will be daft as consumers will already be hesitant to spend on expensive vacations.

I am predicting a pause on any plans Disney may have had to eliminate ap and will return shortly with a new program. Might not be the same thing but I’m now very confident economic conditions will require Disney to shore up revenue and ap are low hanging fruit.

this I believe will be a painful recession given inflation and everyone is feeling the pain on their wallets. The avg family if picking to pay for monthly expenses or go on a $5k Disney vacation, I just don’t see Disney coming out on top of this one. I think this is going to be 2009 bad for Disney If not worse


----------



## MakiraMarlena

When the attendance drops, they'll do something about it. Not before then. Could happen soon.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Madame

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The international guests will be coming next.  CDC dropped Covid requirements this week.


The cynic in me says the looming economic downturn is *why* they decided to drop them now since nothing has changed otherwise.


----------



## nuhusky123

I’m not so confident international travel will rebound. Yes there is demand but flights are expensive, fuel prices internationally are way higher than even the US. Roughly $9 a gallon for fuel in the UK

inflation is getting worse

i just don’t see people spending 10% of their income or more on a vacation right now

i think a tectonic shift is about to hit


----------



## DeeBee3

I'm almost scared to check stocks this entire week. It's not going to be good. I don't think there is a good solution either as so many "options" have been taken off the table, so to speak.

Get ready for a wild thread of discussion!


----------



## artesian

Madame said:


> The cynic in me says the looming economic downturn is *why* they decided to drop them now since nothing has changed otherwise.


Depends from where. My friends from UK see the dollar as being a bit strong on the exchange rate and are holding off coming over anytime soon. I def think there maybe a bump in international visitors but think it'll be short lived.


----------



## Madame

artesian said:


> Depends from where. My friends from UK see the dollar as being a bit strong on the exchange rate and are holding off coming over anytime soon. I def think there maybe a bump in international visitors but think it'll be short lived.


Definitely.  I was implying that the US knows it will need to do whatever it needs to to entice international travellers to come given the economic forecast.  The testing on top of the downturn wouldn’t help, so away it went.


----------



## Brian Noble

DeeBee3 said:


> I'm almost scared to check stocks this entire week.


I never check. I don’t even open the quarterly statements. Nothing is going to change; I’ll keep putting aside my monthly amount in the low-fee index funds we have, come bull or bear.

In some ways, a bear is good news, because I’m still a buyer.


----------



## Azndjdude

Brian Noble said:


> I never check. I don’t even open the quarterly statements. Nothing is going to change; I’ll keep putting aside my monthly amount in the low-fee index funds we have, come bull or bear.
> 
> In some ways, a bear is good news, because I’m still a buyer.


I do the same thing. Low-fee index fund, keep putting money aside, and keep moving forward. I'm trying to find ways to contribute more to take advantage of the bear market. Although I'm like in a weird situation of buy more points, buy more index funds...


----------



## Ms.Minnie

My DFIL once to my DH that you don't lose anything unless you cash in your investment.  Of course, there are exceptions to that like if a stock totally tanks but I think there is wisdom in what he was saying.  Stocks go up and down and hopefully up again.


----------



## AvidDisReader

MakiraMarlena said:


> When the attendance drops, they'll do something about it. Not before then. Could happen soon.


I agree, hope this will spur the return of the Dining Plans.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

With all the out side factors, That attendance drop we are all waiting for might be sooner than anyone thinks.


----------



## nuhusky123

Robbie Cottam said:


> With all the out side factors, That attendance drop we are all waiting for might be sooner than anyone thinks.


I think q3 and q4 are going to get real and attendance levels to drop significantly

wed the fed will announce significant rate hikes. Companies are already laying off 10%+ of their workforce in prep for a prolonged downturn

my crystal ball

international travel will fall off a cliff

domestic travel will decline dramatically 

wdw park attendance will decline dramatically as its just too damn expensive for normal people

dvc sales will slow dramatically. Who buys a time share during a recession and such uncertainty. Anyone who might have financed dvc will now be priced out with rates going up

as families tighten their belts, Disney+ will be first to go along with other streaming services

q3 Disney  will take a small hit

q4 Disney will take a bath


----------



## Disney mac

nuhusky123 said:


> I think q3 and q4 are going to get real and attendance levels to drop significantly
> 
> wed the fed will announce significant rate hikes. Companies are already laying off 10%+ of their workforce in prep for a prolonged downturn


And yet everywhere I turn people are still hiring. It’s a weird situation for sure.  And as I walk through Disney springs, it’s insanely packed and people are spending like crazy.


----------



## nuhusky123

Disney mac said:


> And yet everywhere I turn people are still hiring. It’s a weird situation for sure.  And as I walk through Disney springs, it’s insanely packed and people are spending like crazy.


100% very unusual situation. I think q3 and q4 will be very different unfortunately


----------



## MamaBelle4

nuhusky123 said:


> as families tighten their belts, Disney+ will be first to go along with other streaming services


I would cancel every other one of my streaming services before I cancelled Disney+ to be perfectly honest. I've got 5 kids and we all find plenty to watch on Disney+. Only other streaming service I use is Discovery+ and that's to watch my garbage tv


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## bwvBound

nuhusky123 said:


> as families tighten their belts, Disney+ will be first to go along with other streaming services


Our "first to go" was AT&T's DirecTV Stream (aka DirecTV NOW) as of this month.  Our account was a "day 1" grandfathered account ... but the price increases were really bugging me.  (We started at $35/m and are now at $80/m -- no, thank you.)

Of our streaming subscriptions, I suspect Amazon Prime Video will be the _very last_ to go as it Prime Video is a "free add-in" to the general purpose Prime subscription ... and has some really great content.  I'd easily give up Apple TV -- but it lumped into the useful Apple One package ... so we have neither option nor need to cut it.  

D+?  Not sure.  We purchased the 3yr pre-paid subscription through D23 before the service launched ... and are watching to see what options are offered to re-up this fall.  It isn't my favorite ... but it far more enjoyable than Apple TV!


----------



## nuhusky123

The reason why I said streaming services are at risk is because they are a luxury not necessity. If families struggle to pay bills luxuries are just that, a luxury


problem For Disney is Disney+ is propping up the stock in a big way. If Disney+ sheds subscribers like Netflix, Disney stock will be in free fall


----------



## Leight19

For me if money gets tight I’m more likely to cut out going out and other things then cutting streaming. Relatively speaking, streaming services are a very cheap entertainment cost compared to other things my family does. That said, I find myself rarely watching Disney plus these days and may cancel anyway once our prepaid time expires.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> It appears the Disney board is likely to renew Chapek’s contract within the next month.  Several articles on the internet.


Yes, if this isn’t a full-throated endorsement of how he manages the parks, and his general disdain towards his most loyal customers, I don’t know what is.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Marionnette

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> Yes, if this isn’t a full-throated endorsement of how he manages the parks, and his general disdain towards his most loyal customers, I don’t know what is.


Pete had a different take on it during yesterday's DIS Unplugged podcast. He felt that if the board was truly happy with Chapek, there would be no need for a public endorsement. They would have renewed his contract by now instead.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Marionnette

Ms Bibbidi said:


> But we know;
> 1. Pete just got fired so the potential for his making a biased statement right now is off the charts high.  (He needs to check his own bias before making such a statement.  His poor judgment in knowing the circumstances contributed to getting him fired in the first place.  He cannot read the room.)
> 2.  Disney stock was falling and stock is sensitive to news of executive level ******* so Chapek would have been wise to inform the board first and ask for their endorsement to help stabilize the stock in the wake of the firing. and
> 3.  Peter Rice was known to be gunning for Chapek’s job; and maybe still is!
> 
> So there is plenty of background here to be skeptical of a self-serving statement from Rice.
> 
> But statements on both sides now.  The contract extension is about 6 months overdue.  Usually happens a year before.  So, we have to wait and see.


The Pete I was referring to is Pete Werner, not Peter Rice.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Nabas

artesian said:


> Depends from where. My friends from UK see the dollar as being a bit strong on the exchange rate and are holding off coming over anytime soon. I def think there maybe a bump in international visitors but think it'll be short lived.


Yes, the dollar is strong compared to the pound.

At the current exchange rate, Brits (WDW’s #1 overseas visitors) are seeing an extra 20% in cost.

Add in Disney’s recent price hikes and across the board inflation, and U.K. Guests are going to experience a massive price hike for their WDW vacations.

During our last stay at Universal, we met a large contingent from Scotland who skipped WDW entirely because WDW was so much more expensive.  Since Universal multi-day tickets and hotels cost so much less, they switched to a Universal only trip.


----------



## jimim

Ok now that I got my armchair stock advice is there any move on what this thread is actually about?


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## DeeBee3

bwvBound said:


> Our "first to go" was AT&T's DirecTV Stream (aka DirecTV NOW) as of this month.  Our account was a "day 1" grandfathered account ... but the price increases were really bugging me.  (We started at $35/m and are now at $80/m -- no, thank you.)
> 
> Of our streaming subscriptions, I suspect Amazon Prime Video will be the _very last_ to go as it Prime Video is a "free add-in" to the general purpose Prime subscription ... and has some really great content.  I'd easily give up Apple TV -- but it lumped into the useful Apple One package ... so we have neither option nor need to cut it.
> 
> D+?  Not sure.  We purchased the 3yr pre-paid subscription through D23 before the service launched ... and are watching to see what options are offered to re-up this fall.  It isn't my favorite ... but it far more enjoyable than Apple TV!



Same with us for DirecTV - it is insanely expensive and we never really watch "live TV" so the perks of that were nonexistent.

We are trying to narrow down which services are the most important for all of us. Right now we have Disney +, Amazon Prime, and Netflix. One of those will go or we will get rid of 2 and add a new one.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Disney mac

nuhusky123 said:


> 100% very unusual situation. I think q3 and q4 will be very different unfortunately


It’s interesting in talking to people here that everyone says how expensive it is, yet the packs and springs are crowded as busy as I’ve ever seen for this time of year.  As much as I hate it, demand is insanely high, and supply is low…why would Disney ever sell AP in this climate?  People are just making it harder to justify Selling APs.
I truly was stunned at the lines to get into the polite pig (about 100 people long) and World of Disney was a sea of humanity.  Earl of Sandwich had over 50 people in line.  I get inflation prices are high and gas is Ridiculous….
But people have not changed any habits yet here.


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## Ms Bibbidi

,


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## nuhusky123

I wouldn’t expect to see a slow down until q3 and things to really bite q4. 

this assumes the recession kicks in and inflation hangs around but i unfortunately dont see a scenario where we avoid a recession and fix inflation This year


----------



## Matty B13

I think most families have planned summer vacations, that they have saved up for the past 2 years.  The slow down in vacation travel won't hit till the fall.

We have a October wedding in Orlando to attend, and are staying at WDW for a long weekend.  The price of the rental car has already dropped $100 since I reserved it about a month ago.  I'm hoping flights will drop as well, so I can rebook at a cheaper price.


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## Disney mac

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Many of the people in today’s crowds booked their trips 6 months or more ago.  With such far out advance planning, we have not yet seen the effects of the current economy on park attendance.  But please keep the info coming.  This is good info.


That is true.  But the spending is now at Disney springs and I would think that would be the first thing to be hit.  And bags and people everywhere.


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## Madame

Disney mac said:


> That is true.  But the spending is now at Disney springs and I would think that would be the first thing to be hit.  And bags and people everywhere.


Yes but these vacationers had $ set aside to spend.  Workforce reductions are just beginning (the service industry might not be impacted for a while due to already being understaffed). 

So many people, on some of the FB groups I am in live on the edge, paycheque to paycheque but still are going to Disney.  Posts about extension on payment until payday, car broke down on the way there & have no credit card - seriously.

I understand academically that people do this.  We lived cheque to cheque until my early teens, but never would have gone to Disney (never went anywhere really).  Many of these visitors won’t cancel what they have already booked.   Fall will eventually show the first impact.


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## DeeBee3

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Many of the people in today’s crowds booked their trips 6 months or more ago.  With such far out advance planning, we have not yet seen the effects of the current economy on park attendance.  But please keep the info coming.  This is good info.


Strongly agree with this. There will be a period of time before the financial effects of inflation/ cost of living items really sink in.


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## Robbie Cottam

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Many of the people in today’s crowds booked their trips 6 months or more ago.  With such far out advance planning, we have not yet seen the effects of the current economy on park attendance.  But please keep the info coming.  This is good info.


I bet a lot of people that are driving are rethinking their vacations, and are trying to cancel…..  6 month ago gas prices were half of what they are today…


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## Disney mac

Robbie Cottam said:


> I bet a lot of people that are driving are rethinking their vacations, and are trying to cancel…..  6 month ago gas prices were half of what they are today…


I 100% agree there is a dip coming if it's not already here.   But I see more people starting to drive here than fly.  For example, a DVC family from Chicago drives the 1300 miles.  If they have that car that gets 25 mpg, they spend $250 to get here and $250 to get home.  A car that gets better mpg is even cheaper.  Is $500 a lot of money?  Sure it is, but that's still way cheaper than flying that same family here at $500 round trip and then having to spend more to get from the airport (Magic Express is going to cost Disney a lot of people IMO).
I get that things cost more and inflation is crazy.  My point is I still don't see people driving less, spending less, or planning less.  It's a crazy economy where people are getting laid off and yet there is still a massive work hiring shortage.  If an economy crash is what it takes for Disney to offer APs again, that concerns me for what they value all of us at.   Makes me wonder how people all afford it here at all.....just a strange breed we all are in what we are willing to spend, sacrifice, and do to be a part of the "magic".


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## Marionnette

I think revenge travel is still in effect. People may be staring at skyrocketing fuel prices and food scarcity. But they just spent two years postponing that vacation and come hell or high water, they're going to go now and worry about the rest of the world's problems later.


----------



## npatellye

Leight19 said:


> For me if money gets tight I’m more likely to cut out going out and other things then cutting streaming.


Agreed. For us, we would likely cut out other things. Streaming is not a huge expense for us (Prime included with Amazon Prime, Disney+ is a huge hit with my kids so we would definitely keep it). We may cut out DirecTV.


Robbie Cottam said:


> I bet a lot of people that are driving are rethinking their vacations, and are trying to cancel…..  6 month ago gas prices were half of what they are today…


I think more people are likely driving than flying if they live within 24 hours or so. For us, flying (family of 4) and renting a car at MCO for our trip is over $2700 currently. We can drive our minivan down there and back for under $600 in gas. Even if we rent a vehicle here and drive down, it’s still under $1600 round trip. That’s less than the cost of our airfare and checked luggage right now.


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## nuhusky123

I share as a data point on why Disney attendance will decline. A study conducted by breeze. 

Where are they cutting their budgets? Breeze has data on that issue, as well. This is from its study:


73% of US households have cut back on restaurants/takeout, 63% on consumer spending, 62% on social spending, 57% on groceries, 54% on vacation, 44% on gas, and 35% on debt payments


75% are worried about providing food for themselves and their families, while 93% are intentionally driving less to save gas money, and 87% have cancelled vacation plans


63% are struggling to pay their mortgage or rent, with 31% saying their ability to make payments is "already a very serious problem," and 30% saying it will be a problem in just 1-3 months


54% are struggling to pay supplemental insurance premiums, with 77% considering cancelling some of their coverage


47% have increased their credit card usage, while 39% have increased their BNPL usage


67% said the current state of the economy has negatively impacted their mental health, while 81% said inflation has made them more stressed then usual


52% are worried about their job security


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> We are just finishing Q3 right now.  Disney starts their financial year October 1st.
> Q1 Oct - Dec
> Q2 Jan - Mar
> Q3 Apr - Jun. (Actually, it ends about July 6th. Their quarters do not match monthly calendars exactly.)
> Q4 Jul - Sep
> 
> But I understood you meant the late fall 2022 time frame.  By definition, a recession lasts at least two quarters before it is declared.  So, it appears we are already in the (pre-declaration stage) of the recession right now.


Yeah I was going by calendar not their fiscal. So I’d say by Sept id wager attendance is going to start really dipping

agreed, not declared recession yet. Soon


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## New Mouse

Disney mac said:


> It’s interesting in talking to people here that everyone says how expensive it is, yet the packs and springs are crowded as busy as I’ve ever seen for this time of year.  As much as I hate it, demand is insanely high, and supply is low…why would Disney ever sell AP in this climate?  People are just making it harder to justify Selling APs.
> I truly was stunned at the lines to get into the polite pig (about 100 people long) and World of Disney was a sea of humanity.  Earl of Sandwich had over 50 people in line.  I get inflation prices are high and gas is Ridiculous….
> But people have not changed any habits yet here.



Why sell aps? Because it's a hedge against the time when people stop coming.  Simply turning it on 2 to 3 years from now doesn't work.  It's the ongoing brand loyalty which brings in more money than those one off visitors.   It also helps buffer your cash cow in dvc.


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## Prince John Robin Hood

New Mouse said:


> Why sell aps? Because it's a hedge against the time when people stop coming.  Simply turning it on 2 to 3 years from now doesn't work.  It's the ongoing brand loyalty which brings in more money than those one off visitors.   It also helps buffer your cash cow in dvc.


Absolutely.  If we know a hurricane is coming tomorrow, I don't say "No way, it's sunny today!".  Everyone can see that a recession is coming and the smart thing would be to sell AP's while there is still strong demand.  I'm not convinced Chapek will do the smart thing though.


----------



## New Mouse

Prince John Robin Hood said:


> Absolutely.  If we know a hurricane is coming tomorrow, I don't say "No way, it's sunny today!".  Everyone can see that a recession is coming and the smart thing would be to sell AP's while there is still strong demand.  I'm not convinced Chapek will do the smart thing though.



The irony of any major corporate CEOs role is that whether they fail or whether they do the right thing and succeed, they will still make more than all of us in a single year of work.   There's little actual incentive or punishment when salaries start getting that big.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## artesian

Nabas said:


> Yes, the dollar is strong compared to the pound.
> 
> At the current exchange rate, Brits (WDW’s #1 overseas visitors) are seeing an extra 20% in cost.
> 
> Add in Disney’s recent price hikes and across the board inflation, and U.K. Guests are going to experience a massive price hike for their WDW vacations.
> 
> During our last stay at Universal, we met a large contingent from Scotland who skipped WDW entirely because WDW was so much more expensive.  Since Universal multi-day tickets and hotels cost so much less, they switched to a Universal only trip.



It's not just international visitors doing this either. Last 6 day trip I did the unthinkable and only did 3 days in WDW and spent the rest of the time in Uni. Fam discussed that going forward we may now entertain getting season passes there and possible Sea worlrd/Busch. I keep saying Disney is pushing the envelope on pricing. I'm under the scholl of thought after the 50th celebration Dis will need to start to bring back APs and discounting to get people back.


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## Robbie Cottam

Disney mac said:


> I 100% agree there is a dip coming if it's not already here.   But I see more people starting to drive here than fly.  For example, a DVC family from Chicago drives the 1300 miles.  If they have that car that gets 25 mpg, they spend $250 to get here and $250 to get home.  A car that gets better mpg is even cheaper.  Is $500 a lot of money?  Sure it is, but that's still way cheaper than flying that same family here at $500 round trip and then having to spend more to get from the airport (Magic Express is going to cost Disney a lot of people IMO).
> I get that things cost more and inflation is crazy.  My point is I still don't see people driving less, spending less, or planning less.  It's a crazy economy where people are getting laid off and yet there is still a massive work hiring shortage.  If an economy crash is what it takes for Disney to offer APs again, that concerns me for what they value all of us at.   Makes me wonder how people all afford it here at all.....just a strange breed we all are in what we are willing to spend, sacrifice, and do to be a part of the "magic".


Or like most of the well to do families that have and Escalade or suburban …..
And it gets 18 miles per gallon…..and I was in chicago recently and there was closer to 6 bucks a gallon….

Also I don’t know if you have ever driven 1300 miles but that pretty much ruins any vacation for me, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that…..

Then to have to do it again…. You would spend 4 days of driving getting to and from Florida.


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## tjkraz

artesian said:


> It's not just international visitors doing this either. Last 6 day trip I did the unthinkable and only did 3 days in WDW and spent the rest of the time in Uni.


That sort of behavior is nothing new. New to you, perhaps. But there are always some guests who choose to split a trip between WDW and other Orlando-area entertainment. (My family spent some time in Universal in 2020 but not in '21, '22, 23...) The question is whether Disney begins losing overall market share, and that's data we'll never be able to fully access.

Disney will never undergo any massive price shift, suggesting that mistakes were made. They'll nibble at the edges with hotel discounts, bring back dining plans / free dining, ticket discounts for locals. They've done special ticket offers for DVC in the past, special dining and shopping discounts, etc. They may be forced to delay scheduled price increases. But over time, the economy will improve and business will catch up to the prices. 

Specific to APs, I don't believe that Disney will abandon yearly passes but the format may change. Whatever they decide in the near term, I don't expect it to be a knee jerk response to the current state of the economy. The economy may help spur them into action, but the terms of any new AP program will be something Disney feels it can live with today and into the distant future.


----------



## Ms.Minnie

Robbie Cottam said:


> Or like most of the well to do families that have and Escalade or suburban …..
> And it gets 18 miles per gallon…..and I was in chicago recently and there was closer to 6 bucks a gallon….
> 
> *Also I don’t know if you have ever driven 1300 miles* but that pretty much ruins any vacation for me, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that…..
> 
> Then to have to do it again…. You would spend 4 days of driving getting to and from Florida.



We drive from central NJ and yes it's a long ride, we do it in two days so not as bad as straight through.  Two years ago we did the return trip straight through due to a predicted snow storm and when we got home I was so stiff I could hardly walk.  LOL   Also this is the reason my DH wants to park the car when we get to WDW and not move it again until it's time to go home.  

Driving is still cheaper than flying even with one night's lodging in both directions.  With some of the behavior I have seen on the news of how people behave on flights these days I don't want to fly anywhere.  JMHO


----------



## Madame

Robbie Cottam said:


> Or like most of the well to do families that have and Escalade or suburban …..
> And it gets 18 miles per gallon…..and I was in chicago recently and there was closer to 6 bucks a gallon….
> 
> Also I don’t know if you have ever driven 1300 miles but that pretty much ruins any vacation for me, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that…..
> 
> Then to have to do it again…. You would spend 4 days of driving getting to and from Florida.


We drive from Canada (just across the river from Detroit Michigan) on a fairly consistent basis and so do *many* other Canadians.  Once you add up a family of 4/5/6, it's really a no-brainer to drive if you have the time and inclination.  It's not our favourite thing to do, but it also gives us a certain freedom (of schedule and of movement) once we arrive in Florida, that you just don't get when you fly.


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## mlayton14

I think a certain percentage of folks will move to universal vacations to stretch their dollar - but if we are being honest universal is a different product than Disney. When I’m above 60 - I will have to wonder what there really is to do at universal for a whole week - certainly not ride velocicoaster or the mummy lol. Heck , I don’t even want to do that now.


----------



## Sandisw

mlayton14 said:


> I think a certain percentage of folks will move to universal vacations to stretch their dollar - but if we are being honest universal is a different product than Disney. When I’m above 60 - I will have to wonder what there really is to do at universal for a whole week - certainly not ride velocicoaster or the mummy lol. Heck , I don’t even want to do that now.



We went once to Universal and to be honest, I have no desire to go back.

But, I know my adult children might and will use DVC for part of a stay for visiting there in conjunction with WDW.

I just can’t see there not being any level of a yearly pass. But I do think it will be a different program and maybe one that is tiered better for those who are local, those who are DVC and those who are simply cash guests.

That is what I would love!  As mentioned, I don’t need what a local needs, but I do need/want something more cost effective than a multi day ticket


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## nuhusky123

Madame said:


> We drive from Canada (just across the river from Detroit Michigan) on a fairly consistent basis and so do *many* other Canadians.  Once you add up a family of 4/5/6, it's really a no-brainer to drive if you have the time and inclination.  It's not our favourite thing to do, but it also gives us a certain freedom (of schedule and of movement) once we arrive in Florida, that you just don't get when you fly.


I’d be lying if a corp relocation to Atlanta wasn’t factored by its proximity to Disney world

For me driving is more or less faster than flying once you factor in airport waits.

Cost driving is a no brainer and the freedom of a car is unbeatable

No more Disney busses


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## dreamer17555

mlayton14 said:


> I think a certain percentage of folks will move to universal vacations to stretch their dollar - but if we are being honest universal is a different product than Disney. When I’m above 60 - I will have to wonder what there really is to do at universal for a whole week - certainly not ride velocicoaster or the mummy lol. Heck , I don’t even want to do that now.


Our family is a perfect age for universal so yes we are doing this. If we could get an AP to WDW (not renewal) in July when we go to visit my DCP daughter would do it in a heartbeat but since that is out APs to Universal are happening. My DCP DD already has hers in fact!

I’m 38 with a 15 & 20 year old thrill kiddos so Universal while not our first love is going to win out since Disney took the AP option off the table.


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Madame said:


> We drive from Canada (just across the river from Detroit Michigan) on a fairly consistent basis and so do *many* other Canadians.  Once you add up a family of 4/5/6, it's really a no-brainer to drive if you have the time and inclination.  It's not our favourite thing to do, but it also gives us a certain freedom (of schedule and of movement) once we arrive in Florida, that you just don't get when you fly.


American have neither the time or inclination….
but time will tell ….
I bet more people are worried about buy groceries this summer than driving to Florida


----------



## DeeBee3

Robbie Cottam said:


> American have neither the time or inclination….
> but time will tell ….
> I bet more people are worried about buy groceries this summer than driving to Florida


Agree. Most people (I would say on average) do not get enough time off to "waste" 2-4 of them driving to the location.  And yes, by end of summer people will be horrified by pricing and actually realize how its affecting the bottom line in the family budget.


----------



## Madame

Robbie Cottam said:


> American have neither the time or inclination….
> but time will tell ….
> I bet more people are worried about buy groceries this summer than driving to Florida


I don’t know about that.  Quite a few do the drive from MI and TX on the groups I’m in and over on the Transportation board here.  I don’t dispute your second point, but as I indicated there are many living hand to mouth right now stretching money they don’t have on a luxury vacation.


----------



## Leight19

DeeBee3 said:


> Agree. Most people (I would say on average) do not get enough time off to "waste" 2-4 of them driving to the location.  And yes, by end of summer people will be horrified by pricing and actually realize how its affecting the bottom line in the family budget.


I feel like my vacation time is precious but for me I have lifelong training of doing crazy stretches of all night “work”. My preferred trip is to leave Friday night after work (from PA) and drive straight through to arrival mid morning Saturday. I admit as I get older my stamina may wain but I am banking on self driving cars by then haha.


----------



## DeeBee3

Leight19 said:


> I feel like my vacation time is precious but for me I have lifelong training of doing crazy stretches of all night “work”. My preferred trip is to leave Friday night after work (from PA) and drive straight through to arrival mid morning Saturday. I admit as I get older my stamina may wain but I am banking on self driving cars by then haha.


Well, I certainly thought we would be living The Jetsons lifestyle by now so who knows!


----------



## Transferteck

My gold annual pass expires 7-16-2022. On MDE it was allowing me to renew my pass for the year. We were at the park on Saturday and I was able to renew our passes to Sorcerer. The cast member was unsure of how to complete the purchase and it ended up taking about 20 minutes.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Robbie Cottam

Madame said:


> I don’t know about that.  Quite a few do the drive from MI and TX on the groups I’m in and over on the Transportation board here.  I don’t dispute your second point, but as I indicated there are many living hand to mouth right now stretching money they don’t have on a luxury vacation.


MCO is the 4th busiest airport in the country. 
it is not a hub,
it as very few international fights.
it is not in the middle of the county….

80,000 people went into or out of MCO on SUNDAY….. to see a mouse


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## Maistre Gracey

Back when we used to live in CT, we drove to WDW (even though I fly for the airlines and can fly free). 

My wife is not a good flier, but more importantly we made the drive fun and part of the vacation. 
That’s easy on the way to WDW, but a tall order on the way home. 

Hope that did not derail the topic.


----------



## Madame

Robbie Cottam said:


> MCO is the 4th busiest airport in the country.
> it is not a hub,
> it as very few international fights.
> it is not in the middle of the county….
> 
> 80,000 people went into or out of MCO on SUNDAY….. to see a mouse


Sure.  Doesn’t mean people don’t drive or won’t drive to save money.  I live in North America and am perfectly aware where Florida is.  I originally started this thread to talk about AP sales.  Perhaps it has run its course and should be closed.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Madame said:


> Sure.  Doesn’t mean people don’t drive or won’t drive to save money.  I live in North America and am perfectly aware where Florida is.  I originally started this thread to talk about AP sales.  Perhaps it has run its course and should be closed.


See my post above yours. We drove even though it cost us money.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes.  I know.  Anybody who had the precious metals passes can renew them into the character passes.  But, the word on the street is the CMs are telling those with the character passes that they will not be able to renew.  Disney will offer something else at renewal time and we do not know what that will look like.  The new character passes will not begin expiring until September 7th, 2022.  Enjoy another year with your new Sorcerer pass.



Except I was given an early renewal of a Sorcerer Pass already when they had to find a solution for my ticket issue.  

 So, at least in mid May there was nothing preventing them from issuing it.

My actual Sorcerer pass goes until March 2nd, 2023 and my renewal certificate is through 2024.


----------



## Madame

Maistre Gracey said:


> See my post above yours. We drove even though it cost us money.


We find flying seriously stressful and very expensive.  If we fly we can take 1-2 vacations per year.  If we drive it’s 2-3.  

We are tied to the school calendar for my entire career, so I can see how someone who can travel shoulder seasons can’t understand the appeal of driving 1/3 of the way down the continent.  

My father was a long-haul trucker.  Toronto- Miami mostly so driving doesn’t seem that abnormal for me.  It probably colours my views.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## keishashadow

mlayton14 said:


> I think a certain percentage of folks will move to universal vacations to stretch their dollar - but if we are being honest universal is a different product than Disney. When I’m above 60 - I will have to wonder what there really is to do at universal for a whole week - certainly not ride velocicoaster or the mummy lol. Heck , I don’t even want to do that now.


Going to guess you are talking being a day guest.  The hotel prices there took A major bump due to increased occupancy & AP rates are few & far between, if you can find them

We’ve kept both parks passes running since DVC switched the weekends over to pricier #, a long time ago

Made adjustments to overall vacation spending to make it fit our allocated travel budget and happily enjoyed the best of both worlds. You cannot underestimate the beauty of the FOTL perc

Don’t be too quick to take 60+ guests out of the U equation, more than a few of us are still hanging tuff lol

Also, have managed to tighten the belt, living thru 2-3 recessions. Have felt the need,at times, to take a hard look at discretionary spending; of which we have travel as a priority.  Sounds as though it’s decidedly new ground for many.

 Admittedly, don’t want to look at our 401k right now lol, things will moderate as they always do with time


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I know.  I was told by a CM on the passholder line at the end of Feb that we could renew.  But that info changed the last week of May about two days before they shut down sales of all Magic Kay’s.  The changed info pertained to the Florida passes.



Got it! Then maybe I will be one of the only ones out there who got one!!!


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Very interesting. 

I have three incredi-pass vouchers that expire May 25, 2023. I wonder what will happen to them.


----------



## TCRAIG

DeeBee3 said:


> Well, I certainly thought we would be living The Jetsons lifestyle by now so who knows!


Yes - I’m very disappointed that I still do not have a flying car…


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Brian Noble

Maistre Gracey said:


> That’s easy on the way to WDW, but a tall order on the way home.


Getting there might be half the fun, but getting home is not the other half!


----------



## Brian Noble

mlayton14 said:


> When I’m above 60 - I will have to wonder what there really is to do at universal for a whole week - certainly not ride velocicoaster or the mummy lol. Heck , I don’t even want to do that now.


I’m not quite 60…”only” 53…but I did power-ride Mako a few months back. I probably got about nine or ten laps in the space of an hour with at most a station-wait each time.

Will I still be up for it in seven years? Maybe not, but I was sure surprised that I still have it in me!


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## KPeterso

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes.  I know.  Anybody who had the precious metals passes can renew them into the character passes.  But, the word on the street is the CMs are telling those with the character passes that they will not be able to renew.  Disney will offer something else at renewal time and we do not know what that will look like.  The new character passes will not begin expiring until September 7th, 2022.  Enjoy another year with your new Sorcerer pass.



I am kind of confused. In March of 2021, I renewed to a Gold Pass, but I did not activate until September. So my pass was a Sorcerer pass. I renewed in March 2022 for another year of the Sorcerer pass with photopass added on. So they definitely renewed some of the character passes in the last few months.


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## KPeterso

Brian Noble said:


> I’m not quite 60…”only” 53…but I did power-ride Mako a few months back. I probably got about nine or ten laps in the space of an hour with at most a station-wait each time.
> 
> Will I still be up for it in seven years? Maybe not, but I was sure surprised that I still have it in me!



My Mom is 83 and while she would never do some of the wildest rides, she rides a lot of the thrill rides including Flight of Passage, Space Mountain (at DL only), Test Track, radiator Springs Racers, Big Thunder, Rise of the Resistance, Smugglers Run, Star Tours, Soaring. She does not think twice about going on any of them.


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## kilik64

KPeterso said:


> I am kind of confused. In March of 2021, I renewed to a Gold Pass, but I did not activate until September. So my pass was a Sorcerer pass. I renewed in March 2022 for another year of the Sorcerer pass with photopass added on. So they definitely renewed some of the character passes in the last few months.


This is an as of last few weeks thing. Tied to the announced keys no longer for sale in dl


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Avery&Todd

Sandisw said:


> Got it! Then maybe I will be one of the only ones out there who got one!!!


our Sorcerer passes expire Oct 13th but we arrive on the 16th.  I called last week about an early-early renewal since they let me renew our Gold passes the year before in April (that expired in Oct) but I was told that they're not doing early-early renewal and I'd have to wait until Aug 16th to renew at the regular 60 day window...

Im guessing/expecting that they'll renew our Sorcerer passes??  

And I expect that I'll also have to head to the ticket booth and activate my renewal before we can head into the park, right?


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Sandisw

Avery&Todd said:


> our Sorcerer passes expire Oct 13th but we arrive on the 16th.  I called last week about an early-early renewal since they let me renew our Gold passes the year before in April (that expired in Oct) but I was told that they're not doing early-early renewal and I'd have to wait until Aug 16th to renew at the regular 60 day window...
> 
> Im guessing/expecting that they'll renew our Sorcerer passes??
> 
> And I expect that I'll also have to head to the ticket booth and activate my renewal before we can head into the park, right?



There are apparent rumors that they will be changing up the program again and any renewals will be to whatever is new. 

My situation only happened because they took a day of a 10 day ticket I had from years ago that was not date based when I visited in March and had an active AP.  

Of course, once they did that, it then expired 14 days later. When I went in May and asked what happened, they explained it was used by mistake. 

But, since they don’t sell those anymore they only thing they could do was allow me to use its value..$500.:.toward an AP renewal certificate even though I was way outside my renewal window..which is January.  

So, because of their mess up, I now have an actual Sorcerer renewal voucher, along with an active Sorcerer Pass.  

I assume next March, if something new is in place, this voucher will become whatever the new one is, like gold did to Sorcerer.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The new rule is no early renewals.  Pretty ironclad.
> 
> But more important than that, there may be no renewals at all of any of the 4 tiers of the character passes.
> 
> I suspect you just asked about an early renewal and did not ask the follow-up question of whether Sorcerer passes would be allowed to renew in the normal 60-day window.  That is a different question.  The next question after that is will the Sorcerer pass still be available then.  In other words can you renew into a Sorcerer.  Yet another different question.
> 
> Most people following this thread are waiting until July 9th to see if Disney comes out with a new annual pass program.  If I were in your shoes with a trip planned for October 16th, three days after your current Sorcerer expires, I would get back on the phone, call the passholder line and ask all of the questions.  Otherwise you will get there thinking you have 30 days after the current Sorcerer expires to just renew into another Sorcerer, but what if you cannot?



Char told me today renewals will be allowed for Sorcerer.  What that tells me is that the info has not yet been communicated to everyone that the program is changing.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Typical Disney.  That is why CM “answers may vary.”



Or it’s because this is still a rumor only and they can’t tell people differently until it’s been officially announced?


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## WilsonFlyer

Sandisw said:


> Or it’s because this is still a rumor only and they can’t tell people differently until it’s been officially announced?



Or it's all rumor and nobody knows, which is what I suspect. Lots of assumptions in this thread drawn from glistening branches of which nobody here has access to the entire tree. For all we know, nothing's going to change, and while it's fun to speculate and guess based on what's been written around the internet, I'm going to assume nothing is going to change at WDW until I see something written by Disney saying something new is taking over.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Song of the South

I have made peace with the lack of APs but it has changed what/how we are doing DVC.  Instead of going to the parks we are swimming and playing board games.  We are going to the community centers for those activities.  

We did Universal APs last year but my kids are not thrill ride enthusiasts.  We'll go back again once the littles are old enough to ride everything and be in love with Potter.  I did one day at Discovery Cove and would do that again in a heartbeat.  I don't think they do APs or that might be trouble for me.  My kids might kill to go back to Legoland.  We did that the first half of our March trip.  I enjoyed the lack of lines and the ease of it but I don't see it being on my kids' radar after they get a little older.


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## Mumof4mice

We have 9 Gold AP vouchers stockpiled.  I can't decide if I want to use them for a 2.5 week trip next April before their value is further eroded (by being forced to exchange them for whatever program is on offer) or hold on to them until we have time for a longer trip.  What would you do?


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## sheilafri

Ms.Minnie said:


> My DFIL once to my DH that you don't lose anything unless you cash in your investment.  Of course, there are exceptions to that like if a stock totally tanks but I think there is wisdom in what he was saying.  Stocks go up and down and hopefully up again.


Sounds like a corollary to the adage that your home is worth only what you actually sell it for.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes indeed.  I am sure that is part of it.  Although I think it is a bit more substantiated than just rumor or pure unfounded speculation.  Disney did completely shut off Magic Keys and their renewal language was pulled.  We do have two reports re character passes that renewal is up in the air at least.  But I understand how you meant it.
> 
> One of our earlier reporters said the CM told her she would not be able to renew a Pixie a year from now, but that was all she, the CM, was allowed to say right now.  (I know, I had to go back and find the post to refresh my memory on exactly how she said it.  It is getting hard to remember all the bits of data and exactly what was said.)
> 
> Another factor is people do not always ask all the questions in the right way to pinpoint the issue.  Or they paraphrase what the CM said.  I have thought of trying to call and ask myself, but first they verify me and what pass I have so I cannot really get to all the questions because my pass is not there yet.


 I guess I do see CMs who state something as still a rumor. 

In my case with Chat, I asked specially for my DDs boyfriend who has the Sorcerer pass and did mention I am hearing of a new program and those won’t renew.  Chat just said yes, inside 60 days, he would. So again, any change is not yet being shared widely inside the company.


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## Sandisw

Mumof4mice said:


> We have 9 Gold AP vouchers stockpiled.  I can't decide if I want to use them for a 2.5 week trip next April before their value is further eroded (by being forced to exchange them for whatever program is on offer) or hold on to them until we have time for a longer trip.  What would you do?



If it were me, I’d be using them. Any changes to current program should be known by then.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## keishashadow

Song of the South said:


> I did one day at Discovery Cove and would do that again in a heartbeat. I don't think they do APs or that might be trouble for me.


haven’t seen a DC AP offered.  They do have the non dolphin swim passes

However, plenty of sales, including “blue friday” that pops up before traditional Black Friday.  The deals have been declined in scope recently.  We switched over to ‘fun cards’ last year during the sale, very reasonably priced.  

Only thing there that really needs improvement is entering their parking lot, at times in the AM we’ve waited over 30 minutes In line Due to staffing issues.

if you do buy a SW AP, there are discounts On DC.  also, very generous ones for active military on single day tix.

at times, for those of us not retired or active, they offer  complimentary tix (SW, BG) that can even be used even during the upcoming 4th of July blackout dates

i do enjoy visiting SW to escape, if only for a half day lol


Sandisw said:


> In my case with Chat, I asked specially for my DDs boyfriend who has the Sorcerer pass and did mention I am hearing of a new program and those won’t renew. Chat just said yes, inside 60 days, he would. So again, any change is not yet being shared widely inside the company


that is encouraging to hear some sort of program should be in place, thanks for sharing!

our next AP would be up for renewal mid April.  Curious to see what will be offered.  

nice to know that community members here, going before us, will share what they experience.


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## SleeplessInTO

Mumof4mice said:


> We have 9 Gold AP vouchers stockpiled.  I can't decide if I want to use them for a 2.5 week trip next April before their value is further eroded (by being forced to exchange them for whatever program is on offer) or hold on to them until we have time for a longer trip.  What would you do?


In December 2021, I was told by a CM at Guest Services that she wasn’t sure how long they would be allowed to convert the metals to characters. 

We were going in to activate our platinum passes which turned into incredi-pass plus MM. She noticed we had more platinum vouchers linked and said that while they can convert them now, she did not know how long they would be able to do so. After that, the value you paid for the voucher would be applied to a new purchase, instead of a straight up one to one conversion. 

Oddly she entered our unused platinum (now incredi-pass) vouchers into the system with a 2099 expiry date. But a few minutes after, the system showed an expiry date of Dec 13, 2022. Basically as if we had just bought it and had a year to use it. I was verbally assured by a separate CM that even after expiry I’d be able to use it no problem and wouldn’t have to pay extra for a new incredi-pass, or whatever it is known as at that time. 

I called the AP line in May and they were able to “update” our vouchers in the system and now they expire May 25, 2023. Again, just as if I bought it and had one year to use it. 

I do not know what any of this means. But to answer your question - I would see what happens closer to the April date. Maybe you book another trip. Or Disney announces what the program looks like and how previous vouchers would be treated as part of the program.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Doesn’t an unactivated annual pass lose the option to just activate it a year from purchase?  After that you can only use them for credit towards a new pass or ticket?



Prior to the AP sales starting last September, the vouchers had very long expiration dates.  My DD has a Gold renewal voucher we got just before the change that she has still not yet activated...was supposed to go a few times and work got in the way...and it expires in 2099.  The goal is to get down there in Aug/early September, with her BF to get it done.  Of course, it will then expire in October (her old AP expired Oct 2021), but at least she will have one and will renew at the same time...unless she gets some pixie dust and they give her a start date of the trip (they noted in her file she has been delayed and that if she didn't get there in time, they would honor it as a new AP, even if sales were suspended...as I tried to activate in May for her and they could not...don't expect the note to hold water...but it is there).

However, the new certificates...like my Sorcerer Renewal...does indeed expire 1 year after it was purchased...if I don't activate it by then...it will only be worth its value.  But, those who have gold renewal or new Gold vouchers, have years to use them up.


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## Miffy

I renewed my Incredi-Pass on May 31st, the first day it was up for renewal. Did I just make it in time? Or does this not count in what the discussion here is. I'm out of state.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Miffy, did you have a metals pass and at your normal renewal time, you renewed to to an Incredi-pass?
> There might be rare Incredi-passes out there that were purchased based on converted tickets, in which case they would be backdated to the ticket date.  In such a case, they will use the old metals pass renewal rules.


@Ms Bibbidi: I had to dig into my emails to find out the answer to this, which is:

On May 31, 2021, I renewed my Platinum Pass. The confirmation email for the payment calls it "Platinum Pass Renewal."

On May 31, 2022, I renewed my previous AP, which I'm assuming was still being called a Platinum Pass. My renewal email says "Disney Incredi-Pass" (the word "renewal" is not in the headline) so I guess that's what it turned into. I still got some kind of a discount. The renewal price was $1,175.76, which, btw, was what a CM had told me it would be when I was at WDW in March and was taking care of something else. I'm pretty sure this is 15% off what the regular selling price would be if they were selling them.


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## christophles

When I activated my Gold renewal certificate in September last year, it became the Sorcerer Pass as expected and my annual pass still expires on 7/31. On May 31st (60 days from expiration) I was able to purchase a renewal for that same Sorcerer Pass. If they have stopped allowing renewals of that pass, then it wasn't affecting my purchase on that date.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Avery&Todd

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The new rule is no early renewals.  Pretty ironclad.
> 
> But more important than that, there may be no renewals at all of any of the 4 tiers of the character passes.
> 
> I suspect you just asked about an early renewal and did not ask the follow-up question of whether Sorcerer passes would be allowed to renew in the normal 60-day window.  That is a different question.  The next question after that is will the Sorcerer pass still be available then.  In other words can you renew into a Sorcerer.  Yet another different question.
> 
> Most people following this thread are waiting until July 9th to see if Disney comes out with a new annual pass program.  If I were in your shoes with a trip planned for October 16th, three days after your current Sorcerer expires, I would get back on the phone, call the passholder line and ask all of then I questions.  Otherwise you will get there thinking you have 30 days after the current Sorcerer expires to just renew into another Sorcerer, but what if you cannot?
> 
> Come back and tell us what they say please.


When I called the other day and spoke to a CM at the AP line I was told that I would be able to renew on Aug 13th at my 60 ay window..so I'm assuming they aren't giving out false information???

But perhaps I should call back and get a 2nd opinion??!!


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## CarolynFH

Avery&Todd said:


> When I called the other day and spoke to a CM at the AP line I was told that I would be able to renew on Aug 13th at my 60 ay window..so I'm assuming they aren't giving out false information???
> 
> But perhaps I should call back and get a 2nd opinion??!!


I'd just wait.  If they change the program before your 60 day window opens, then you'll be able to find out what your options are.  Until Disney announces something, it's all speculation.


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## Canadian Tom

Hello:  We had Annual Passes but because of Covid, we let them expire back in 2020.  My question is, can I call Disney about getting new ones. or am I snookered?  Thanks Canadian Tom


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## Miffy

Canadian Tom said:


> Hello:  We had Annual Passes but because of Covid, we let them expire back in 2020.  My question is, can I call Disney about getting new ones. or am I snookered?  Thanks Canadian Tom


Sadly, you are indeed snookered...until they start issuing APs again, whenever that will be.


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## TCRAIG

No NEW APs except for 1 very limited Florida residents only…they’re still allowing renewals but are strictly sticking to the 60 day prior to expiration date.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Nope.  That appears to be normal too.  Still not impacting the newly purchased character passes.



I think it was. This person traded the Gold to Sorcerer in September but it was back dated to July…so when they renewed end of May, it was already a Sorcerer pass that was renewed 60 days out.

While new Sorcerer passes didn’t happen until September 9th, those with Gold renewal certificates who didn’t convert to an actual gold pass by September 8th, were given the new pass, but many had late July or August dates because there were renewal s.

So, there are definitely character passes, like Sorcerer out there already up for renewal.  .

Both My pass and this one would indeed be actual sorcerer passes that were renewed for another year already.


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## npatellye

Sandisw said:


> I think it was. A person was able to renew a Sorcerer pass to a new Sorcerer pass at the end of May.
> 
> So, mine and this one would indeed be actual sorcerer passes that were renewed for another year, expiring in 2023.


Agree. It sounds to me like a Sorcerer was renewed on 5/31/22.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> But they are character passes with metal pass roots.  But, I hope you are right.


I’m confused by this.  Once they became a Sorcerer pass, why would it be any different than one that started that way?

I think it is more the point that it was indeed a Sorcerer Pass when it was renewed again end of May 

This doesn’t mean that a new program isn’t in the works, but they have not stopped all people who have a current Sorcerer, and are within 60 days, to renew it as Sorcerer.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## Mumof4mice

Sandisw said:


> If it were me, I’d be using them. Any changes to current program should be known by then.


Thanks!


SleeplessInTO said:


> In December 2021, I was told by a CM at Guest Services that she wasn’t sure how long they would be allowed to convert the metals to characters.
> 
> We were going in to activate our platinum passes which turned into incredi-pass plus MM. She noticed we had more platinum vouchers linked and said that while they can convert them now, she did not know how long they would be able to do so. After that, the value you paid for the voucher would be applied to a new purchase, instead of a straight up one to one conversion.
> 
> Oddly she entered our unused platinum (now incredi-pass) vouchers into the system with a 2099 expiry date. But a few minutes after, the system showed an expiry date of Dec 13, 2022. Basically as if we had just bought it and had a year to use it. I was verbally assured by a separate CM that even after expiry I’d be able to use it no problem and wouldn’t have to pay extra for a new incredi-pass, or whatever it is known as at that time.
> 
> I called the AP line in May and they were able to “update” our vouchers in the system and now they expire May 25, 2023. Again, just as if I bought it and had one year to use it.
> 
> I do not know what any of this means. But to answer your question - I would see what happens closer to the April date. Maybe you book another trip. Or Disney announces what the program looks like and how previous vouchers would be treated as part of the program.


Thanks!  You're right, all we can do is wait and see what the program is like, closer to the dates. 

The reason we are planning early is DVC requires it.  7 month window for April opens in September.  So we need to decide between braving a WDW trip (25 hours each way flying) and continue burning points at Aulani (10 hour flights).

Interestingly, I noticed 3 of the vouchers that I reassigned to a phantom account to avoid accidental use had expiry dates of Dec 31, 2099.  The vouchers all had the expiry date of Dec 31, 2030 at the time of purchase.  So I reassigned all the tickets between our group.  After the exercise, they now all show 2099 expiry.  I'll bet Disney I.T. can't wait for all the legacy tickets and APs to become extinct.


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Bulk numbers.  Bulk numbers.  It is not a buy-out like during the pandemic shutdown.  I figured there would be a sprinkling of very early character passes up for renewal because of backdating.  But the early ones would mostly have metals roots.  The bulk number of outstanding character passes will renew in the 60 day window before expiration.  So, as I said, that wave of renewals starts July 9th.  They will honor the few outstanding ones.  If they do a new product that is too different to just renew, then they only have to wait a year until the last of the old product disappears.



Okay.  I understand that July 9th is the first date for the new passes.  

But, if they are allowing the backdated ones then it does discount to a degree the CM who said none would be allowed. 

 Obviously that is not true because they have issued them. 

I do find it odd that we are only a few weeks out from that date, and nothing official has been updated that the program for WDW is changing.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## hcortesis

Canadian Tom said:


> Hello:  We had Annual Passes but because of Covid, we let them expire back in 2020.  My question is, can I call Disney about getting new ones. or am I snookered?  Thanks Canadian Tom


Our family of 12 have all had exceptions made for us because of us not visiting due to Covid.  Call Member services.  We all made out very well with our AP's


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## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You and I are on the same page, Sandi.  In fact, the closer we get to July 9th without hearing anything the more probable it is that there is not a change coming.  Disney did announce on August 4th the news of new passes to be sold September 8th.  So there was a little over a month of notice.  We are now inside that window.
> 
> The info I came across was the stopped sales of all passes and non renewal of Magic Keys at Disneyland.  That came from Disney.  At the same time we had two posts from members here who were told by two different CMs that WDW character passes would not be renewed.  The professional bloggers also posted some info about redesigned passes and we did not know what would be offered at renewal.  The paired timing is what caused the alert and watchfulness.  I am not an insider.  The only thing I can do is take direct and circumstantial evidence and watch the story as it cobbles itself together. Like the bulk numbers concept is a brainstorming thing about what someone trying to manage this thing might think of — like putting myself in their shoes.  It is a predictive technique.  It was not a report or even necessarily my opinion.  It was just brainstorming.  Human conduct seldom works with neat pieces like a jigsaw puzzle. We always work in the real environment around us and always without an omniscient command of all facts.  This is the way it is in law, in intelligence work and many other professions.   But we can do some predictive effort by putting ourselves in their situation.  If the variable factors are too significant it probably is an unlikely theory or projection.  But watching for the direct and circumstantial details is kind of fun.  If it is not appropriate for DISBoards, just tell me and I will not do it.  I am good with that too.



Everything you share is great! Always good to have info and other share of experience or info is similar and different. 

One thing I did think about was last year, when the new program was announced for character passes, they gave those with Gold certificates..new or renewal..a chance to still activate under those terms by September 8th. 

So, if we are up for a new program at some point, you wonder if they will decide to do the same thing?


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## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> You and I are on the same page, Sandi.  In fact, the closer we get to July 9th without hearing anything the more probable it is that there is not a change coming.  Disney did announce on August 4th the news of new passes to be sold September 8th.  So there was a little over a month of notice.  We are now inside that window.
> 
> The info I came across was the stopped sales of all passes and non renewal of Magic Keys at Disneyland.  That came from Disney.  At the same time we had two posts from members here who were told by two different CMs that WDW character passes would not be renewed.  The professional bloggers also posted some info about redesigned passes and we did not know what would be offered at renewal.  The paired timing is what caused the alert and watchfulness.  I am not an insider.  The only thing I can do is take direct and circumstantial evidence and watch the story as it cobbles itself together. Like the bulk numbers concept is a brainstorming thing about what someone trying to manage this thing might think of — like putting myself in their shoes.  It is a predictive technique.  It was not a report or even necessarily my opinion.  It was just brainstorming.  Human conduct seldom works with neat pieces like a jigsaw puzzle. We always work in the real environment around us and always without an omniscient command of all facts.  This is the way it is in law, in intelligence work and many other professions.   But we can do some predictive effort by putting ourselves in their situation.  If the variable factors are too significant it probably is an unlikely theory or projection.  But watching for the direct and circumstantial details is kind of fun.  If it is not appropriate for DISBoards, just tell me and I will not do it.  I am good with that too.


I love your posts, @Ms Bibbidi. Please continue! Your thoughts and insights are terrific and so well presented.


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## Ms Bibbidi

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## cm8

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I understand they have had annual passes since 1982 — 40 years.  So it would be a humongous change to have no annual passes at all.
> 
> Everyone knows we cannot buy new passes (except the Pixie at WDW).  A Disney spokesperson and two CMs have said we can no longer upgrade or renew any of the newer passes.  That is all they are allowed to say.
> 
> Here’s a rundown for new people just starting to watch this thread.
> 
> The legacy “precious metal” annual passes are still apparently able to renew into the “character” annual passes at WDW.  But those who already have Incredi-pass, Sorcerer, Pirate or Pixie, which I am calling character passes, (that were first sold 9/8/2021), will come into their first renewal window 7/9/2022.  We have two people reporting that —specifically as to these character passes at WDW — *we will not be allowed to upgrade or renew.  However, a spokesperson said at renewal time Disney would contact the passholder and offer some renewal options.*




Is this true? I was able to renew my pass that expires in October on Thursday. I’d say that this is either false or the CM who renewed them gave us some serious Pixie Dust.


Ms Bibbidi said:


> 1.  We know the current Magic Key and character passes, using blockout calendars, park reservations and availability buckets, will be phased out by letting them expire.
> 2.  We know Disney has not decided what is coming next.
> 3.  We know some kind of program will be coming next for passholders because Disney will be offering options to current passholders with expiring annual passes.
> 4.  It appears likely that the new options will not be just bare tickets.  We know this because a poster who knows coding was able to see a change that showed merch and dining discounts were being added to a new section of code regarding passes.  He did not mention theme park parking.  That does not mean anything significant right now.
> 5.  There is a current promotion going on for California or Florida residents for multi-day tickets that expire 9/15/2022.  So, the date is farther out.  But this appears to just be a seasonal promotion.  There are no discounts like with annual passes.  So, this does not appear to be part of the next reiteration of annual passes.
> 6.  We know Disney is currently conducting deep dive surveys of random annual passholders.
> 7.  We know that last time Disney considered revamping annual passes, right before release of Magic Keys and character passes, there were at least two camps within Disney recommending two very different products.  What emerged was very much like the legacy precious metals passes, but with the addition of park reservations and availability buckets.  They got sued over that one.  So, they now have to “kick the buckets” but they will still want to encourage the higher spending guests.


 Also,  I don’t need anyone coming in saying that this isn’t allowed and what not , we have a DVC stay booked in December and wanted to make sure we got a reservation (Christmas) so they allowed us to do so. I am not the only one who they have previously allowed to renew before the date either.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

I’m less optimistic than Ms. Bibbidi.  They tend to announce new programs in advance, but they do not tend to announce suspensions.  Those you find out the morning of.  So it’s still possible we all wake up July 9th to find out Disney has suspended annual pass renewals (until they figure out whatever their new program is).


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## keishashadow

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> …  They tend to announce new programs in advance, but they do not tend to announce suspensions.  Those you find out the morning of.  So it’s still possible we all wake up July 9th to find out Disney has suspended annual pass renewal…


Can’t think of a worse WDW thing to come back from our 4th of July trip to find out

They are cracking down on leaks (well, except for the errant GoG one lol.  You used to be able to rely upon the various Disney related newsletters/blogs to leak the info as to tix price increases...seems to be a thing of the past.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Sandisw

cm8 said:


> Is this true? I was able to renew my pass that expires in October on Thursday. I’d say that this is either false or the CM who renewed them gave us some serious Pixie Dust.
> 
> Also,  I don’t need anyone coming in saying that this isn’t allowed and what not , we have a DVC stay booked in December and wanted to make sure we got a reservation (Christmas) so they allowed us to do so. I am not the only one who they have previously allowed to renew before the date either.



The early renewal you got was indeed an exception because we too have a December trip booked and why I asked about the early renewal for my DD's boyfriend...his expires in October...and was told they were no longer allowing it outside of 60 days, even with trips.  

They did it a lot in 2021, but stopped right before the new passes.  But, I do think that if they are going to have the park reservation system, and someone has a trip that is booked, they should allow them regardless.

But, it certainly does show that there is nothing actually stopping WDW AP's from being renewed at this time...whether they are within 60 days or not!!!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> It proves that as of last Thursday, 6/16/22, that Disney had not issued a rule to cast members that there could be no renewals of character passes or that they could not be renewed early.  I think that is what this says.



I think that is what I mean. New program coming or not, renewals are being allowed and I’d go on to say they will be until a new program is officially announced.


----------



## Avery&Todd

cm8 said:


> Is this true? I was able to renew my pass that expires in October on Thursday. I’d say that this is either false or the CM who renewed them gave us some serious Pixie Dust.
> 
> Also,  I don’t need anyone coming in saying that this isn’t allowed and what not , we have a DVC stay booked in December and wanted to make sure we got a reservation (Christmas) so they allowed us to do so. I am not the only one who they have previously allowed to renew before the date either.


Which line did you call to get your AP renewed for October?  Ours expire Oct 13th and we arrive Oct 16th and I called last week to see if they'd let me early-early renew and they said NO, I'd have to wait until my regular 60-day renewal window in August.

I called the AP ticket line but I feel I was transferred - we also have DVC so should  I have started with DVC MS and then get xferred to a ticket person??

I feel like I've started with DVC MS before but that might have been when we were trying to get tickets for a 2020 trip moved after Disney re-opened...


----------



## Boardwalk III

Deleted


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## cm8

Avery&Todd said:


> Which line did you call to get your AP renewed for October?  Ours expire Oct 13th and we arrive Oct 16th and I called last week to see if they'd let me early-early renew and they said NO, I'd have to wait until my regular 60-day renewal window in August.
> 
> I called the AP ticket line but I feel I was transferred - we also have DVC so should  I have started with DVC MS and then get xferred to a ticket person??
> 
> I feel like I've started with DVC MS before but that might have been when we were trying to get tickets for a 2020 trip moved after Disney re-opened...


I called the VIP Passholder line. It didn’t take long at all. Maybe try again?


----------



## cm8

Sandisw said:


> The early renewal you got was indeed an exception because we too have a December trip booked and why I asked about the early renewal for my DD's boyfriend...his expires in October...and was told they were no longer allowing it outside of 60 days, even with trips.
> 
> They did it a lot in 2021, but stopped right before the new passes.  But, I do think that if they are going to have the park reservation system, and someone has a trip that is booked, they should allow them regardless.
> 
> But, it certainly does show that there is nothing actually stopping WDW AP's from being renewed at this time...whether they are within 60 days or not!!!


I’m never surprised how we all end up calling for the same thing and walk away with very different outcomes! I’m just thankful we were allowed to. It seems to be hit or miss at this point.


----------



## Sandisw

cm8 said:


> I’m never surprised how we all end up calling for the same thing and walk away with very different outcomes! I’m just thankful we were allowed to. It seems to be hit or miss at this point.



Me neither! IIRC, the entire 60 day window came in to play when FP+ was a thing so people could book those.

Now that they have the park reservation system, it should be farther out than that! I am happy for you that you got it!


----------



## Miffy

Sandisw said:


> Me neither! IIRC, the entire 60 day window came in to play when FP+ was a thing so people could book those.
> 
> Now that they have the park reservation system, it should be farther out than that! I am happy for you that you got it!


That is such a good point, @Sandisw, and something I hadn't considered until you just mentioned it.

Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm wondering if the renewal is limited to 60 days previous to expiration for yet another reason: If the price of the AP goes up, they want you to renew at 15% off the current price, not one from, say, 4 months ago. Even though APs currently aren't for sale, they could still raise the price.

I was surprised when I renewed mine at the end of May that the price was the same price that a CM quoted to me in March. I was sure it was going to go up. I mean, everything at WDW goes up in price seemingly once a week!


----------



## Sandisw

Miffy said:


> That is such a good point, @Sandisw, and something I hadn't considered until you just mentioned it.
> 
> Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm wondering if the renewal is limited to 60 days previous to expiration for yet another reason: If the price of the AP goes up, they want you to renew at 15% off the current price, not one from, say, 4 months ago. Even though APs currently aren't for sale, they could still raise the price.
> 
> I was surprised when I renewed mine at the end of May that the price was the same price that a CM quoted to me in March. I was sure it was going to go up. I mean, everything at WDW goes up in price seemingly once a week!



I definitely think the change to vouchers expiring one year from purchase was indeed to prevent people from locking in current prices for years to come.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Sandisw said:


> I definitely think the change to vouchers expiring one year from purchase was indeed to prevent people from locking in current prices for years to come.


From a business perspective, that makes sense. My AP vouchers have "appreciated" more than any of my stock purchases. 

From an accounting perspective, selling vouchers that expire in 2099 (or tickets that never expire at all) is carrying a liability on your books that is difficult to get rid of, and hard to value.


----------



## Brian Noble

I was under the impression that the revenue is not recognized until tickets/passes were used/activated, but I could be wrong about that.


----------



## jimim

just checking in. . . nothing changed. . . check. . . see you all in a week or so. . .


----------



## Robbie Cottam

Miffy said:


> That is such a good point, @Sandisw, and something I hadn't considered until you just mentioned it.
> 
> Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm wondering if the renewal is limited to 60 days previous to expiration for yet another reason: If the price of the AP goes up, they want you to renew at 15% off the current price, not one from, say, 4 months ago. Even though APs currently aren't for sale, they could still raise the price.
> 
> I was surprised when I renewed mine at the end of May that the price was the same price that a CM quoted to me in March. I was sure it was going to go up. I mean, everything at WDW goes up in price seemingly once a week!


For as long as I can remember AP renewals have been 60 days prior and 14 days after expiration.


----------



## Sandisw

Robbie Cottam said:


> For as long as I can remember AP renewals have been 60 days prior and 14 days after expiration.



You can buy a renewal voucher up to 30 days after.


----------



## Boardwalk III

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Well.  This sounds like some official taking down to some fraudulent carnival fortune teller or tarot reader who has been caught trying to scam the public.  The official has to set the rules as to the boundaries of how the information will be received and dealt with.  That's a fairly offensive statement.  Sounds like a monitor putting a warning label on "misinformation."
> 
> I don't agree that everyone has to understand that my posts are just predictions.  I don't agree that my posts have been just flimsy predictions -- "well-informed" or not.  Actually, I don't think I have made any predictions -- like going out on a limb saying something will happen in the future.  Nobody knows the future.  Not as to what will happen or when.  I only said July 9th was a logical date to watch for some kind of change from Disney.  An alternative is to wait until the lawsuit is completed.  But, I have repeatedly stated I am just a forum poster and not an insider.  I have no leaked information.
> 
> This was just meant to be a discussion on AP sales for a group of public peers.  But, some of us bring decades of skills to the table that were developed in various professions to deal with the weight and credibility to be given "evidence."  Some have skills on putting pieces together.  I am not the only one on this forum contributing in this manner.  Also, there are times to have a theory and then to have the flexibility to update it when new information becomes available or even when an older theory is just wrong.  This isn't a court.  It is a social media forum.  The discussion as to what will happen and when is just a work in progress.
> 
> Also, there is no need to pet my ego.  I don't need kudos for "participation."
> 
> I would prefer to see people sharing their own thoughts on the topic of the thread, rather than trying to censor or put warning labels on my posts.


I absolutely did not intend for this to be a “talking down” or negative response in any way. Sorry if it came across that way to you. No ill intent meant I can assure you, it was intended to show genuine appreciation for the information you’ve been providing.

Though I think my full post showed that, I’ve deleted it to eliminate any concerns.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Brian Noble said:


> I was under the impression that the revenue is not recognized until tickets/passes were used/activated, but I could be wrong about that.


I haven't read any of Disney's actual filings, so my comments are just based on what I would expect to see. But I would agree with you, the revenue shouldn't be recognized until the tickets/passes are used/activated. Until that time, they should sit as a liability called Unearned Revenue or something similar on the books.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Disney mac

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Total radio silence from Disney and the bloggers about the status of annual passes after the survey went out.  Are they waiting for survey results?  Crunching data?  Curiouser and curiouser!


What was on the survey?  They didn’t send it to all.


----------



## Yankee626

I visit DW 4 times a year .  I would not be able to do that without an AP .  Many DVC members bought points to do this.  Im not sure what these people running the show are thinking.  As soon as Epic Universe comes on line at Universal all bets are off for Disney.  I can see a deluge of customers abandoning ship .  Instead of turning customers away they Disney should look at how they can increase their base .  Open another gate possible expand .


----------



## nuhusky123

Yankee626 said:


> I visit DW 4 times a year .  I would not be able to do that without an AP .  Many DVC members bought points to do this.  Im not sure what these people running the show are thinking.  As soon as Epic Universe comes on line at Universal all bets are off for Disney.  I can see a deluge of customers abandoning ship .  Instead of turning customers away they Disney should look at how they can increase their base .  Open another gate possible expand .


Epic universe looks amazing. If it’s half as good as it looks it will be part of every dvc vacation I take. Thats at least one day Disney won’t get my money and it also assumes I don’t go to the other two universal parks

Disney will still get the lions share of my trip but I won’t be alone in skipping Disney more often


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## rick1zoo2

So did I miss something?  I am DVC member, AP holder, logged into Disney (Not DVC site) and see that the Sorcerer Pass is available for sale.  I thought sales were suspended:


----------



## crazywig

rick1zoo2 said:


> So did I miss something?  I am DVC member, AP holder, logged into Disney (Not DVC site) and see that the Sorcerer Pass is available for sale.  I thought sales were suspended:
> 
> View attachment 679904


Just saw reported on twitter DVC and FL res back on sale.


----------



## CarolMN

rick1zoo2 said:


> So did I miss something?  I am DVC member, AP holder, logged into Disney (Not DVC site) and see that the Sorcerer Pass is available for sale.  I thought sales were suspended:
> 
> View attachment 679904


We are not there yet.   I just tried to actually purchase.  Got all the way through and then at the very end, got this message -


*Sorry, but we are unable to complete your purchase online at this time. Please call (407) W-DISNEY or (407) 934-7639 for assistance, or try again later.*


So maybe we are getting closer to the return of annual pass sales.   Hope so.


----------



## Madame

Should I call & try to upgrade my 4 day hopper   Also, would it be the dvc number or regular ticketing?


----------



## CarolMN

Madame said:


> Should I call & try to upgrade my 4 day hopper   Also, would it be the dvc number or regular ticketing?


If you have the time to waste, LOL.


----------



## Madame

CarolMN said:


> If you have the time to waste, LOL.


Today I do!  I’m moving schools & have already removed everything from the building but am not allowed to go to my new assignment yet . I’ll report back


----------



## clarker99

I am an out of state white card DVC Member and the site does not give me the option of the sorcerers pass. Only shows me the incri-pass and says unavailable.


----------



## rick1zoo2

So would I be able to purchase the Sorcerer Pass and assign it to my 21 year old son?  He is not on our DVC contract, doesn't live with us, but has our address on his drivers license (for now).


----------



## nuhusky123

Can anyone buy, sorcerer showing as unavailable for me


----------



## CarolMN

rick1zoo2 said:


> So would I be able to purchase the Sorcerer Pass and assign it to my 21 year old son?  He is not on our DVC contract, doesn't live with us, but has our address on his drivers license (for now).


Yes, since he has an ID that shows he lives with you,     - when they actually become available.  They are not, yet.


----------



## shoegal9

clarker99 said:


> I am an out of state white card DVC Member and the site does not give me the option of the sorcerers pass. Only shows me the incri-pass and says unavailable.


DVC APs are a blue card membership extra. I know some white card members were able to secure them in the past- but seems that was a cast member error.


----------



## CarolMN

nuhusky123 said:


> Can anyone buy, sorcerer showing as unavailable for me


I did have the purchase button a few minutes ago, but now it is showing unavailable.   As posted above, it didn't allow me to actually complete a purchase, but it let me get all the way to the end of the process.    Someone "jumped the gun", I think.   But maybe this means they are getting close to an announcement.


----------



## rick1zoo2

CarolMN said:


> Yes, since he has an ID that shows he lives with you,     - when they actually become available.  They are not, yet.




thanks. and yep, now not available, but have one in the cart.


----------



## nuhusky123

This would make my month if they resume sales, please Disney gods release the kraken


----------



## Pens Fan

I tried online and got the error message.  I called - hardly any wait, BTW - and no - they are not on sale.  It's a technical glitch.  They said an official statement from Disney would be coming out soon.


----------



## Madame

Now the option to purchase is gone.  Please come back


----------



## nuhusky123

Pens Fan said:


> I tried online and got the error message.  I called - hardly any wait, BTW - and no - they are not on sale.  It's a technical glitch.  They said an official statement from Disney would be coming out soon.


That means they are coming back


----------



## ars13

Pens Fan said:


> I tried online and got the error message.  I called - hardly any wait, BTW - and no - they are not on sale.  It's a technical glitch.  They said an official statement from Disney would be coming out soon.


Official statement saying they will be selling them again or an official statement that it was a technical glitch?


----------



## Pens Fan

ars13 said:


> Official statement saying they will be selling them again or an official statement that it was a technical glitch?


That it was a technical glitch.


----------



## nuhusky123

ars13 said:


> Official statement saying they will be selling them again or an official statement that it was a technical glitch?


Disney would not acknowledge a tech glitch


----------



## DeeBee3

C'mon man, you guys are killing me!


----------



## HHISand

I used the chat function when I was unable to see it for sale on Disney's site.  Here was the response:

There were reports as there was a display issue on our website this morning. It since should have been fixed. I do apologize for the inconvenience. The only pass currently available for purchase for Florida residents remains the Pixie Pass.


----------



## ThisIsTheWay

Ugghh come on Disney, I need APs to come back before August 5 so I can save money on our next 2 trips!!


----------



## clarker99

shoegal9 said:


> DVC APs are a blue card membership extra. I know some white card members were able to secure them in the past- but seems that was a cast member error.


Yep, that makes sense. Thank you.


----------



## karrit2000

I still need to buy a ticket for my trip next month.  Probably going to bite the bullet & hope to be able to upgrade while I'm there since I have another trip planned for September.


----------



## Like2Detail

karrit2000 said:


> I still need to buy a ticket for my trip next month.  Probably going to bite the bullet & hope to be able to upgrade while I'm there since I have another trip planned for September.


That's what I did too.  Was just there in March and May and paid for tickets.  Bought more tickets for our upcoming July trip in hopes of upgrading to AP's.  Trips planned already in December 2022, March 2023 and have enough points for June  2023 as well.  Fingers crossed I can upgrade these before July and cover the next four trips.  I had AP's in the cart and it wouldn't let me finish the purchase!!!


----------



## Sandisw

Well, let's hope the "glitch" was that someone turned the switch to sell them on just a little bit early!!!   It will be fantastic news for DVC owners who need the AP...let's hope it includes the Sorcerer Pass...or something like it!!!


----------



## SleeplessInTO

This is actually an amazing differentiator between DVC Y and DVC ND... imagine only being able to purchase an annual pass if you're a Florida resident or DVC Y.


----------



## nuhusky123

SleeplessInTO said:


> This is actually an amazing differentiator between DVC Y and DVC ND... imagine only being able to purchase an annual pass if you're a Florida resident or DVC Y.


I’d be cool with that so long as direct members can buy a pass


----------



## Mexacajun

SleeplessInTO said:


> This is actually an amazing differentiator between DVC Y and DVC ND... imagine only being able to purchase an annual pass if you're a Florida resident or DVC Y.


I could see this happening. They could push it to membership extras to get more direct sales.


----------



## Sandisw

Mexacajun said:


> I could see this happening. They could push it to membership extras to get more direct sales.



It would be an interesting move by DPEP to limit it to just DVC and FL residents,  There are a lot of AP holders out there.

But, who knows what will happen when sales resume, or if some new type of program comes back.


----------



## SL6827

I will never have an AP so no skin in that game, but wow only Fl residents or DVC- Y!   Thats a game changing possibility right there.


----------



## CJK

We are Canadian, but have had an AP for almost 10yrs. This would change EVERYTHING............for the worst.


----------



## Mexacajun

Sandisw said:


> It would be an interesting move by DPEP to limit it to just DVC and FL residents,  There are a lot of AP holders out there.
> 
> But, who knows what will happen when sales resume, or if some new type of program comes back.


Oh,not sure how it was before but  I just meant that if they said DVC and FL residents for the sorcerer’s pass. And offered others to everyone else. Just meaning a discount only to dvc-y. But maybe it was that way before.


----------



## Sandisw

Mexacajun said:


> Oh,not sure how it was before but  I just meant that if they said DVC and FL residents for the sorcerer’s pass. And offered others to everyone else. Just meaning a discount only to dvc-y. But maybe it was that way before.


. Sorcerer Pass is only for DVC Y and FL residents, so those DVC without it only had the option to get the more expensive Incredi Pass. 

Now, some have been able to sneak in and get one even when not eligible. 

But that appears to have tightened up and some who got the voucher were denied the actual pass when they tried ti activate it.  

They were refunded money.


----------



## Mexacajun

Sandisw said:


> . Sorcerer Pass is only for DVC Y and FL residents, so those DVC without it only had the option to get the more expensive Incredi Pass.
> 
> Now, some have been able to sneak in and get one even when not eligible.
> 
> But that appears to have tightened up and some who got the voucher were denied the actual pass when they tried ti activate it.
> 
> They were refunded money.


So the interesting and controversial issue would be if only dvc-y and Fl residents were offered an no one else. Got it. Thanks for the clarity.


----------



## Sandisw

Mexacajun said:


> So the interesting and controversial issue would be if only dvc-y and Fl residents were offered an no one else. Got it. Thanks for the clarity.



Correct. If they didn’t offer general public APs. That would be a huge move and since that program is more than just DVC, I can not see it.

i think they’d be more likely to eliminate all but the FL pixie pass.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> The Sorcerer and Pirate passes that briefly went live were word for word what was sold earlier and suspended.  I think when AP sales restart, there will be an announcement first by Disney and there will be changes.



You definitely know its a glitch when things didn't come out from DPEP first...stopping them on a dime happens with no notice...starting sales again doesn't!  I too am expecting some new product changes...


----------



## nuhusky123

Sandisw said:


> You definitely know its a glitch when things didn't come out from DPEP first...stopping them on a dime happens with no notice...starting sales again doesn't!  I too am expecting some new product changes...


But I do feel way more confident a pass is coming back soon given the issue yesterday


----------



## Sandisw

nuhusky123 said:


> But I do feel way more confident a pass is coming back soon given the issue yesterday



I hope its a good sign...even if it isn't an AP, in the sense of unlimited admissions other than a few weeks blocked out.  I just need a pass that can get me in 30 to 40 days in a year...that works for me...though I am lucky as I don't need to worry about anything until March 2024.  I have my current one and my renewal voucher already!


----------



## nuhusky123

4th of July holiday will be over leaving the next holiday weekend as Labor Day in sept. After Labor Day you have the holiday season of Halloween (Oct), thanksgiving (Nov) and then of course Christmas. Zero chance passes come out between Oct and January 

if ap come back in 2022 at all I think realistically it’s going to be before sept and the holiday season, with the period post Labor Day until Oct as another potential time slot to do limited timing on sales

so as I see it two opportunities 
1) post 4th up until labor day
2) post Labor Day until Oct 1

my bet is on option 1 especially given I view the mess up on passes as an IT test gone wrong


----------



## ScubaCat

Last year they came back the day after labor day (just after everyone in town for the holiday left... Gosh darn it, so close. I'm sure that was just a coincidence )  At this point I wouldn't be surprised to see the same time frame play out.


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

Just another data point 

Yesterday, I renewed (1) FL silver pass & (2) FL weekday passes to pirate & pixie dusts passes, respectively. No issues, except that I couldn’t process it online & had to call in (which also means we got vouchers which will need to be activated, instead of automagical renewals that let you just tap in with no visit to guest relations). Either way, I’m just glad they’re still allowing renewals


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Tomorrow is July 9th.  Now for the big question:  Will Disney renew the character passes (Incredi-pass, Sorcerer pass, Pirate pass and Pixie Dust pass) that were first sold on or after September 8, 2001?  For a while after they stopped sales and renewals of APs at Disneyland on May 30, 2022, we were concerned they might stop the annual pass program entirely.  But with some late breaking rumors about afternoon reservations and the like, it appears some version of the annual pass program will continue.   As of July 9th, the first of those character passes start to be eligible for renewal.
> 
> If ANYBODY
> 
> bought a _NEW annual _pass purchased on or after September 8, 2021, called an Incredi-pass, Sorcerer pass, Pirate pass or Pixie Dust pass, or
> renewed a platinum, gold, silver, weekday or Epcot after 4 into a character pass,
> did not upgrade a ticket and backdate the pass to the first date of the ticket that was upgraded,
> this is not an ageing in 3 year old,
> this is not a premier passport conversion,
> this is not a Club 33 or Golden Oaks deal,
> this is not a cast member deal,
> there is no cast member pixie dust involved or other adjustment by Disney,
> DVC Sorcerer or DVC Incredi-Pass is included AND
> is renewing on or after July 9, 2022
> Then please let us know if there are *ANY* new procedures or new or different terms and conditions of the renewed pass that you can spot.
> 
> Thank you.


I saw a Facebook post where the person renewed their incredipass as a dvc blue card holder


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

The day is finally here! & According to the WDW website, things are the same today as they were yesterday… the FL res pixie dust pass is still for sale & renewals are still being promoted:

Renew Your Annual Passes​We are pausing new sales of select Annual Passes. All current Passholders can continue to renew into any of our four pass types – at their renewal rate – and continue to visit using their pass. We will continue to evaluate the return of new sales for these passes. Please check back here for the latest updates.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## js

Ms Bibbidi said:


> It had to be a renewal of back-dated pass upgrading tickets or possibly a 30 day after expiration renewal of a metals pass.  The NEW character passes renewal window for those sole on or after September 8, 2021, does not open until tomorrow, July 10th.


Our Sorcerer (purchased with DVC) and Incredi Pass expire on November. Going back October 8 and will renew. Im guessing the first people we will start to hear from will be about next month.


----------



## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> It had to be a renewal of back-dated pass upgrading tickets or possibly a 30 day after expiration renewal of a metals pass.  The NEW character passes renewal window for those sole on or after September 8, 2021, does not open until tomorrow, July 10th.


Not posting the posters name, but this was their response to their status. But sounds like a legit renewal 

Was DVC platinum AP for many years until renewing into the "equivalent" IncrediPass last summer.  We did not cancel our passes during the pandemic, which does allow us to continue to renew APs...


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Oh I am not questioning that it was a legit renewal.  But, people are sometimes loose with their language.  Incredi-pass etc started selling for the first time on September 8, 2021.  It was not possible to buy or renew into an incredi-pass before that date.
> 
> Some people might have upgraded tickets to an incredi-pass and then the expiration would be back-dated.  But, what I am really looking for is what is Disney going to do with respect to the true character passes renewals?  That date first opens -- tomorrow.



Can you explain why it matters? I don’t see it as any different.  Regardless of how it started, once converted it was the new pass.

Any changes to the programs could be coming but I am sure they announce it with at least a few days notice.


----------



## DL1WDW2

The renewal dates were extended to compensate for Covid park closing . Perhaps this guest did not realize they had been granted an automatic extension and their dates were updated without notification.  I find it hard to believe they purchased a new new pass today if they were not already included in this extension . Otherwise the purchase would not have been completed!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sandisw said:


> Can you explain why it matters?


.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes.  Putting myself in Disney’s shoes for a moment, it is a good predictive tool to see if there are any subtle changes as of opening of the 60 day renewal window for passes first sold on 9-8-21.  I agree that any significant changes would almost always be preceded by an announcement — probably with a couple of months of lead time.  But, I have a theory and I am watching for facts.



I still don’t understand the difference or why Disney would even treat one Sorcerer pass different from another Sorcerer pass based on start date.

We know character passes are being renewed.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## nuhusky123

I’m starting to think there will be no changes to passes and the on,y question is how long Disney let’s new passes go on sale each year

disney might have a bucket of ap they want to be out there and will open sales for a limited time based on natural attrition


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

HappyDisneyWife said:


> The day is finally here! & According to the WDW website, things are the same today as they were yesterday… the FL res pixie dust pass is still for sale & renewals are still being promoted:
> 
> Renew Your Annual Passes​We are pausing new sales of select Annual Passes. All current Passholders can continue to renew into any of our four pass types – at their renewal rate – and continue to visit using their pass. We will continue to evaluate the return of new sales for these passes. Please check back here for the latest updates.





Ms Bibbidi said:


> My mistake.  It is Sunday, July 10th when the renewal window opens.  I continue to watch for new information.


All info remains the same on the WDW website


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## DisBud

We are eligible for renewal today and able to renew at all four character pass levels!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## nuhusky123

My expectation is all the white card holders who “accidentally“ purchased a socerer pass come renewal will be given the boot and we will see a relatively large surplus of socerer inventory present in the coming months


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## nuhusky123

As long as people who don’t qualify for socerer are blocked from buying the pass I’m happy

if you legit own direct, Disney should sell that pass without limitations on number of issued passes

under no circumstances is it ok for a non direct dvc owner buying socerer


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## nuhusky123

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Maybe the cap on annual passes (if there is a cap) are weighted; like a penny, nickel, dime and quarter.  They take a bunch of coins (passes) and throw them in the change counter.  When it equals $100 they have reached the cap on annual passes?  A software program could easily manage something like that.


Feels a bit too complicated for Disney IT

i think it’s Bob working an abacus


----------



## Sandisw

nuhusky123 said:


> As long as people who don’t qualify for socerer are blocked from buying the pass I’m happy
> 
> if you legit own direct, Disney should sell that pass without limitations on number of issued passes
> 
> under no circumstances is it ok for a non direct dvc owner buying socerer



The passes that got through last year eventually got stopped. People who got the vouchers and not entitled were refunded because they wouldn’t activate them when they got there because they were ineligible.

I was told by a CM supervisor at ticketing in MK in January, that the system now flagged those not eligible and should be stopped from  renewing.

So we will see what reports we get. But remember, if DPEP, who is in charge, doesn’t care which DVC owners get them, and allows CMs to sell/activate than they can.

But, based on what happened after they stopped the sales to non qualified, I hope that it will indeed be stopped.


----------



## Paul Stupin

nuhusky123 said:


> As long as people who don’t qualify for socerer are blocked from buying the pass I’m happy
> 
> if you legit own direct, Disney should sell that pass without limitations on number of issued passes
> 
> under no circumstances is it ok for a non direct dvc owner buying socerer


I think you’re right. It’s one of the few direct perks that really means something, and we’ve paid handsomely for it.


----------



## Beachmom0317

Just sitting here still waiting for new APs to go on sale. I'm hopeful with DVC lifting their borrowing restriction maybe full normalcy will be back soon!


----------



## DeeBee3

Beachmom0317 said:


> Just sitting here still waiting for new APs to go on sale. I'm hopeful with DVC lifting their borrowing restriction maybe full normalcy will be back soon!


I agree. I think something's bound to be announced since they lifted the borrowing restriction.


----------



## Like2Detail

DeeBee3 said:


> I agree. I think something's bound to be announced since they lifted the borrowing restriction.


I REALLY hope so.  I leave for my trip in 11 days and already bought single day tickets for 3 people that I would love to convert to AP's before I use them!  This one trip is almost as much as the AP's and I have 3 more trips already booked in the next year.  Fingers crossed!!!


----------



## CarolMN

DeeBee3 said:


> I agree. I think something's bound to be announced since they lifted the borrowing restriction.


I hope so, too, but I strongly doubt the two are related. 

DVCMC can make the borrowing decision.  The AP decision is WAY, WAY above anyone in the  DVCMC or DVD organization.  If any of them could make the decision, I'm 100% positive that AP sales would never have been paused for DVC Members qualified for Membership Extras.


----------



## RoseGold

I honestly thought the Incredipass was dead.  Surprised to see renewals allowed into it.

I thought they would make Sorcerer the new top tier and let DVC buy Pirate (if anyone ever gets to buy anything).


----------



## RoseGold

Beachmom0317 said:


> Just sitting here still waiting for new APs to go on sale. I'm hopeful with DVC lifting their borrowing restriction maybe full normalcy will be back soon!


You can renew 30 days after your pass expires.  The passes were sold in early Sep, so they won't know how many people aren't renewing until October.  I would guess they need that number before they offer new passes for sale.


Ms Bibbidi said:


> look for approximately *September 8, 2022*, the same day they started selling last year.


I don't see that.  They just don't have the data for who is renewing.  I would guess November at the earliest.

I know if I wanted an Incredipass, I would renew at the first possible moment.  I can totally see yanking that one, even at renewal level.

My pass was activated in mid October, and I am sweating over here.


----------



## RoseGold

nuhusky123 said:


> under no circumstances is it ok for a non direct dvc owner buying socerer


Uh, except the whole state of Florida.  It's not like a few hundred DVC members matter in the overall numbers for a FL resident pass that already blacked out the peak dates.

It's Incredipass I'm way more interested in, and I'd never travel on those days anyway.  It just seems like the top target if they are going after revenue offset, and DVC couldn't be bothered to throw a $50 discount on that one.  That one I think is not going to last long.


----------



## CarolMN

RoseGold said:


> My pass was activated in mid October, and I am sweating over here.


Me, too.  We have Sorcerers passes.  Bugs me that I can't renew early so I can make park reservations now.  Some of the ADRs we want could be a problem since I have to renew the aps first.


----------



## RoseGold

CarolMN said:


> Some of the ADRs we want could be a problem since I have to renew the aps first.


You can get ADRs without park reservations or even tickets.  It doesn't check.  I did it for my trip a couple weeks ago.

Now, the new fangled park reservation system...


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think I said September 8th if it was just a recurring annual event -- putting APs on sale to new buyers.  But, it they want to know exactly how many renewed -- then they have to wait until 30 days after November 21st -- when they stopped selling them.  In other words they won't know that until December 21st.


It's more complicated than that.  They were sold in September and October, but plenty weren't activated until Spring, or whatever.  Or maybe still haven't been activated.

But they do know how many of the legacy pass renewals are happening over time, which aren't on the same timeframe.  And after a few months, they will know how many of the early 2021 buyers renew.

With all the changes to the parks, I wonder what is going on with all that.  Lots of changes people aren't thrilled with, but also huge price jumps, which make the AP make more sense for many.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## CarolMN

RoseGold said:


> You can get ADRs without park reservations or even tickets.  It doesn't check.  I did it for my trip a couple weeks ago.
> 
> Now, the new fangled park reservation system...


Thank you for pointing that out.  I forgot ADR's are tied to resort reservation, not tickets.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

RoseGold said:


> I honestly thought the Incredipass was dead.  Surprised to see renewals allowed into it.
> 
> I thought they would make Sorcerer the new top tier and let DVC buy Pirate (if anyone ever gets to buy anything).


I don’t think you will see DVC be offered the Pirate or Pixie. Overly restrictive passes will skew DVC room demand too much. 

Of course I have nothing to back that up other than my own logic.


----------



## CarolMN

Maistre Gracey said:


> Of course I have nothing to back that up other than my own logic.


That and wishful thinking are all any of us have, LOL.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

CarolMN said:


> Me, too.  We have Sorcerers passes.  Bugs me that I can't renew early so I can make park reservations now.  Some of the ADRs we want could be a problem since I have to renew the aps first.


You don’t need park reservations to make an ADR. (Unless something has changed recently anyway).


----------



## Leight19

My personal prediction at this point is we will get announcement for this rumored update to park passes for ap with the later entry reservations. Once these are released I could see a brief monitoring period but I feel like it would definitely trigger the countdown for release of new ap sales. Given timelines for where this could role out and predicted drop in attendance post summer I also think an early September announcement for annual passes makes sense.


----------



## Bibbidi_Boo

RoseGold said:


> You can renew 30 days after your pass expires.  The passes were sold in early Sep, so they won't know how many people aren't renewing until October.  I would guess they need that number before they offer new passes for sale.
> 
> I don't see that.  They just don't have the data for who is renewing.  I would guess November at the earliest.
> 
> I know if I wanted an Incredipass, I would renew at the first possible moment.  I can totally see yanking that one, even at renewal level.
> 
> My pass was activated in mid October, and I am sweating over here.



But Just because people bought passes during that window, many weren't activated right away or for months....so they are all spread out on when they expire. There are likely people that bought that haven't even activated yet since trip isn't here yet.


----------



## Paul Stupin

Bibbidi_Boo said:


> But Just because people bought passes during that window, many weren't activated right away or for months....so they are all spread out on when they expire. There are likely people that bought that haven't even activated yet since trip isn't here yet.


I’m one of those people. I bought sorcerer passes for my wife and I last fall, but won’t activate them until we’re there in mid September. Needless to say, I’m glad I did.


----------



## DeeBee3

I think this news from overseas may mean something for US in the future regarding the talk of different times to enter.

https://insidethemagic.net/2022/07/disney-evening-entry-tokyo-af1/


----------



## Bibbidi_Boo

DeeBee3 said:


> I think this news from overseas may mean something for US in the future regarding the talk of different times to enter.
> 
> https://insidethemagic.net/2022/07/disney-evening-entry-tokyo-af1/



Tokoyo Disney isn't run by Disney though.


----------



## SL6827

Bibbidi_Boo said:


> Tokoyo Disney isn't run by Disney though.


It will most likely still come too pass.


----------



## Royal Consort

DeeBee3 said:


> I think this news from overseas may mean something for US in the future regarding the talk of different times to enter.
> 
> https://insidethemagic.net/2022/07/disney-evening-entry-tokyo-af1/


They had this for ages. It was just suspended during covid.


----------



## Flynn's Gal

I'm one week away from renewing our APs (Incredipass). I don't expect any issues (except my bank account groaning) since it seems new passes sold when they opened it again last year are in fact getting renewed. It was our first time ever buying an AP last year so the conversion from metal to character didn't apply. Anyone who has been following this thread had any issues renewing what were brand new APs last year? 

To all those still waiting. I know your pain. I first bought DVC in Aug. 2020 and couldn't purchase a pass until Sept 2021. Having a wonderful place to stay at Disney was (is!) a dream come true. Not being able to go in the parks without buying day tickets was painful.


----------



## Chuck S

I am hoping they allow new passes to be purchased, as mine currently expires in Novermber.  I never travel in November, it was a one off trip because everyone wanted to go for Thanksgiving last year (I tried to wwarn them, but now they know) and I'd like to have it start/stop in January or June.  If they don't, I'll renew what I have, but grumble about it.


----------



## CarolMN

Chuck S said:


> I am hoping they allow new passes to be purchased, as mine currently expires in Novermber.  I never tavel in November, it was a one off trip because everyone wanted to go for Thanksgiving last year (I tried to wwarn them, but now they know) and I'd like to have it start/stop in January or June.  If they don't, I'll renew what I have, but grumble about it.


Same situation for me.  My pass expires in mid-October, but I'd rather purchase new for December, our usual travel time.  I will need to decide soon - renewal window opens next week.  Since I want to make park reservations asap, I will probably be joining the  "grumblers".   (Really don't want to complain too much as I know there are many who don't even have a pass to renew).

Hope Disney starts selling annual passes again soon.


----------



## shoegal9

Flynn's Gal said:


> I'm one week away from renewing our APs (Incredipass). I don't expect any issues (except my bank account groaning) since it seems new passes sold when they opened it again last year are in fact getting renewed. It was our first time ever buying an AP last year so the conversion from metal to character didn't apply. Anyone who has been following this thread had any issues renewing what were brand new APs last year?
> 
> To all those still waiting. I know your pain. I first bought DVC in Aug. 2020 and couldn't purchase a pass until Sept 2021. Having a wonderful place to stay at Disney was (is!) a dream come true. Not being able to go in the parks without buying day tickets was painful.


My husband renewed his DVC Sorcerer pass last week.  No issues at all.


----------



## Brian Noble

CarolMN said:


> will need to decide soon - renewal window opens next week. Since I want to make park reservations asap


I would be willing to roll the dice a little on this. There are no "non-green" days past August for day tickets, and the AP availability has been even better--currently "all green" for all days. So, I'd probably push into my renewal window a bit rather than do it ASAP, in hopes that new passes go on sale.


----------



## CarolMN

Brian Noble said:


> I would be willing to roll the dice a little on this. There are no "non-green" days past August for day tickets, and the AP availability has been even better--currently "all green" for all days. So, I'd probably push into my renewal window a bit rather than do it ASAP, in hopes that new passes go on sale.


I probably will roll the dice on this (for other reasons), but my concern is for early December park reservations.  Don't care about August.  Head says I shouldn't worry as it's unlikely to be a problem.. Heart says get it done and top worrying about it.


----------



## Brian Noble

CarolMN said:


> my concern is for early December park reservations. Don't care about August.


Maybe a better way to say what I was trying to say: Early December almost certainly won't have any park-days that fill before e.g. Thanksgiving week, so you have plenty of time to make your first choice park reservations.


----------



## Boardwalk III

CarolMN said:


> I probably will roll the dice on this (for other reasons), but my concern is for early December park reservations.  Don't care about August.  Head says I shouldn't worry as it's unlikely to be a problem.. Heart says get it done and top worrying about it.


 
I have a November expiration. After canceling this past April due to Covid concerns, I’m able to do a 4-day weekend in October, but then not again until early March. Would love if they would make an announcement soon, but not counting on it


----------



## Flynn's Gal

CarolMN said:


> I probably will roll the dice on this (for other reasons), but my concern is for early December park reservations.  Don't care about August.  Head says I shouldn't worry as it's unlikely to be a problem.. Heart says get it done and top worrying about it.


I'm with you. I need Thanksgiving week park reservations so I'm buying asap.


----------



## ilikedvc

Madame said:


> Is anyone else (who uses their DVC for park visits) seriously struggling to find a way forward without an AP..?
> 
> We’ve reduced length of ticket (incorporating 50% non park days), reduced to base instead of hoppers…. The cost is just prohibitive.  I’m not even thinking of the discounted pass (which is useless to us as Xmas travellers)… just any AP!
> 
> I don’t understand how they market DVC anymore, but given the proclivity of most new - & many veteran - owners to choose studios (assuming to save points) and prefer multiple visits to larger accommodations….  Just why are they not allowing AP sales to DVC members?


I still have Exchange Certificates for annual passes from 2004 when I bought SSR and was hoping to use next year.  I hope they will allow it.


----------



## Chuck S

Flynn's Gal said:


> I'm with you. I need Thanksgiving week park reservations so I'm buying asap.


Good luck, I had a group of 11 for Thanksgiving Week last year.  The parks were horrendous.  Never again.


----------



## zavandor

Chuck S said:


> Good luck, I had a group of 11 for Thanksgiving Week last year.  The parks were horrendous.  Never again.


If it can be of any consolation, parks were horrendous in early December too. Less horrendous I bet, but still.


----------



## RoseGold

zavandor said:


> If it can be of any consolation, parks were horrendous in early December too. Less horrendous I bet, but still.


Yes, I will never go back in December.


----------



## bobbiwoz

Decembers are a must do for us.!  We tried a NYE on a DCL cruise and while nice, it wasn’t the same.  

We will be buying a single days tix for December 30, since our AP has blackout days now.  I have theme park view at BLT for the 31, so no park that day.


----------



## kes601

RoseGold said:


> Yes, I will never go back in December.


We have gone every December since 2018 and while the parks are packed we’ve always had a great time. We knew how to maximize FP+ when that was a thing and last year we did great with G+. We just adjust our typical patterns and enjoy. 

We’ve also never found thanksgiving to be hugely busy, but haven’t been the last couple of years. 

We also both work at schools so it is summer and December break for us.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

At one point in history we always did a few nights in December…. Generally cash at GF RPC.
By far the best club level on property….,,, but you certainly pay for it.


----------



## zgirls

Renewed this morning, expires 10/3 and have am early Nov. trip, didn't want to wait to book parks. Manager had to process the purchase, CM questioned if it was due to 'something' in system that they are not allowed to see yet...one can only hope as we let my wife's pass expire during covid, renewed mine due to rundis races.


----------



## DeeBee3

I just want to know what prices will be if they start selling again. I don't want to plan on buying and then they double the price.


----------



## CarolynFH

DeeBee3 said:


> I just want to know what prices will be if they start selling again. I don't want to plan on buying and then they double the price.


Yes, I hope they don't increase the prices tremendously.  OTOH, we always look at the price of regular tickets for the trips we have planned.  If the AP costs around the same or just a little more, we'll get the AP, because we have a tendency to add trips more often than cancel them!


----------



## Flynn's Gal

Chuck S said:


> Good luck, I had a group of 11 for Thanksgiving Week last year.  The parks were horrendous.  Never again.


Oh, I'm under no illusions about park crowds. One of the reasons I love owning DVC and having APs is frequent enough trips to space out what we do in the parks and not feeling like we have to do everything to get the value out of the cost of the tickets. 

Thanksgiving at Disney for 11 must have been quite the undertaking. Hats off to you @Chuck S!


----------



## peabody58

ilikedvc said:


> I still have Exchange Certificates for annual passes from 2004 when I bought SSR and was hoping to use next year.  I hope they will allow it.


I'd recommend you get them loaded into your MDE accounts.  My 2011 DVC Vouchers took some help Disney to get properly loaded since the numbering system had changed a bit..  I moved them to a dummy MDE account.  Now it;s easy to track them and once they were moved to my MDE account, I was able to make park reservations even though the vouchers haven't been activated yet.
This will save you a lot of time at GS.


----------



## MistyMoon

ilikedvc said:


> I still have Exchange Certificates for annual passes from 2004 when I bought SSR and was hoping to use next year.  I hope they will allow it.


Us too.  I have been wondering how that will work.  I also want to wait until they are back to full normal before I try to exchange them.  We have two exchange tickets and were thinking of using only one while saving the other for a different year.  Then paying cash for the other family members.  Spread the cost out in a small way.  I can't believe it has been that long ago.  With school, work and volunteering, they just sat in my files unused all this time, waiting for a better time to activate them.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

ilikedvc said:


> I still have Exchange Certificates for annual passes from 2004 when I bought SSR and was hoping to use next year.  I hope they will allow it.



They do.  Be certain they give you the no black out date pass.  I used an exchange certificate this spring and they wanted to give me the DVC pass with blackout dates until I pointed out the certificate was for pass with no blackout dates.  The ticket CM checked with a supervisor and then changed the pass.


----------



## SL6827

So how many APs hsve extra blackout days that they didnt have before?


----------



## bobbiwoz

SL6827 said:


> So how many APs hsve extra blackout days that they didnt have before?


Sorcerer pass has Thanksgiving dates blacked out, November 24-27, and December 18-31, this year.

I had had the Platinum pass before and it had no blackout dates, but was more expensive that Sorcerers is.  I will be buying a pass for December 30 for MK, since that’s been a tradition for is.  Even with that price added, the Sorcerer’s pass was a better buy than the pass without blackout dates, Incredipass I think it’s called.


----------



## Sandisw

The Sorcerer pass…replacement for the Gold…blocks Thanksgiving now when Gold blocked around Easter.

The dates around December seem to be the same as before.


----------



## Pens Fan

If I recall, with the Gold pass you had two weeks of blockout dates around Easter.  With Sorcerer's they are only blocking out 4 days around Thanksgiving in addition to the unchanging weeks around Christmas.  So actually there are less blockout days vs the Gold pass.  It was unfortunate for anyone who travels at Thanksgiving, though.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

SL6827 said:


> So how many APs hsve extra blackout days that they didnt have before?



Related to DVC - owners received discounts off 2 regular WDW AP's for a number of years before they introduced the Gold AP in 2015 that had Christmas/New Years and Easter blackout dates and was only available to qualified DVC owners and FL residents.   The Gold equivalent morphed into the Sorcerer's pass - still with blackouts and only for qualified DVC owners and FL residents.  So not a lot for DVC.

Thru out the years FL residents have had a few other pass options come and go with various restrictions including dates, parks and entry times.


----------



## keishashadow

Sandisw said:


> The Sorcerer pass…replacement for the Gold…blocks Thanksgiving now when Gold blocked around Easter.
> 
> The dates around December seem to be the same as before.


Will be our first year in ages being blocked out the day after Thanksgiving With the Sorcerer pass.  

decided to push things forward and end our “christmas trip“ by squeezing in the last day open for PH in December - 16th.   

Only lemon was no discount for MVMCP tix our dates, still on fence, waiting to see how the MNSSHP is this year Before committing.


----------



## MalorieA

I’ll be sitting on pins and needles for the next 2 months refreshing the Disney news sites every chance I get. Will be cancelling 2 of our 4 trips (the first one being the week after thanksgiving) in the next year if we can’t get APs.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## SL6827

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Warning.  Rumor.  Speculation.  Conjecture.
> Plaintiff in Nielsen vs. Disney filed a motion to certify as a class action in May 2022.
> Judge Carter is expected to rule on that motion about January 2023.
> If approved, trial in the case might commence as early as July 2023.
> Disclaimer.  I am not a Disney insider.  I have no connection to plaintiff or defendant or their law firms.  I have no personal knowledge of the above information.  The information may or may not be trustworthy.  Anyone and everyone may have a different opinion on this information.  It may or may not impact when AP sales may resume.


I have heard this as well.  Exact dates.


----------



## MalorieA

I guess if the resumption of APs is depending on the outcome of this trial, the best that someone like me can hope for is the offering of some different type of multi-day ticket that would allow for 25+days per year. Great. Holding my breath


----------



## keishashadow

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Judge Carter is expected to rule on that motion about January 2023.
> If approved, trial in the case might commence as early as July 2023.


Ugh, that’s a long time for people to wait, especially captive audience of so many DVC members who have been waiting.

PS you may not be a lawyer but, you disclaimer is pretty impressive lol


----------



## OtherFigment

Does anyone else get their hopes up every time they see an update on this thread? No? Just me? Sigh...


----------



## CarolMN

OtherFigment said:


> Does anyone else get their hopes up every time they see an update on this thread? No? Just me? Sigh...


Not just you.  It's one of the very few threads I watch.


----------



## Avery&Todd

OtherFigment said:


> Does anyone else get their hopes up every time they see an update on this thread? No? Just me? Sigh...





CarolMN said:


> Not just you.  It's one of the very few threads I watch.


Ummm....and I just came running over here to see who updated what!!


----------



## DebbieB

I renewed my Sorcerer AP last week.  I was chatting with the CM, he said there is no word on when new AP’s will be available for sale.   I normally do not renew.  I would buy new on my next trip and figured dates so that I would only buy an AP every 18 months.  I would go twice a year and schedule my trip one week earlier the following year so I’d have 3 uses.


----------



## OtherFigment

Tag, you're it!


Avery&Todd said:


> Ummm....and I just came running over here to see who updated what!!


----------



## Avery&Todd

OtherFigment said:


> Tag, you're it!


The only thing I have is that I'll be renewing our Sorcerer passes on Aug 14th!

I'm expecting it to go fine - but I'll let you guys know how the process goes!


----------



## DeeBee3

Almost every day I go to Disney's site to see if anything changed. I know it will be the same, but it's the thrill of it all that I'm after...


----------



## Sandisw

DebbieB said:


> I renewed my Sorcerer AP last week.  I was chatting with the CM, he said there is no word on when new AP’s will be available for sale.   I normally do not renew.  I would buy new on my next trip and figured dates so that I would only buy an AP every 18 months.  I would go twice a year and schedule my trip one week earlier the following year so I’d have 3 uses.



Did you do over the phone? If so, did they mention anything about it not being a voucher but an actual ticket already activated.

Can you check the date at the bottom? Is it a year expiration from date you called? Or does it have the year it is valid?

Thanks.


----------



## CJK

Hi all! I haven't been keeping up with this thread like I should. Has anyone been able to renew the Incredi pass online? Our renewal date is coming up in a few weeks, and I wondered if we'd have to call? We've always been able to do it online. TIA!


----------



## MissLiss279

Sandisw said:


> Did you do over the phone? If so, did they mention anything about it not being a voucher but an actual ticket already activated.
> 
> Can you check the date at the bottom? Is it a year expiration from date you called? Or does it have the year it is valid?
> 
> Thanks.


I renewed mine about a month ago. They told me that it would be already activated, and that I would not need to go to guest relations before entering my first park. 

My original one does not expire until the end of this month. The new one in MDE has dates from 8/31/22 - 8/30/23.


----------



## Sandisw

MissLiss279 said:


> I renewed mine about a month ago. They told me that it would be already activated, and that I would not need to go to guest relations before entering my first park.
> 
> My original one does not expire until the end of this month. The new one in MDE has dates from 8/31/22 - 8/30/23.



Then these are indeed different than the one I got in May.  Thanks for confirming.


----------



## BillFromCT

CJK said:


> Hi all! I haven't been keeping up with this thread like I should. Has anyone been able to renew the Incredi pass online? Our renewal date is coming up in a few weeks, and I wondered if we'd have to call? We've always been able to do it online. TIA!


You can still renew online with the renewal discount.


----------



## Sandisw

BillFromCT said:


> You can still renew online with the renewal discount.



Only the Incredi Pass. You must call to renew the Sorcerer.


----------



## Bibbidi_Boo

Sandisw said:


> Only the Incredi Pass. You must call to renew the Sorcerer.



I renewed my gold/silver into sorcerer online recently.


----------



## Sandisw

Bibbidi_Boo said:


> I renewed my gold/silver into sorcerer online recently.



As a DVC member? Or as a FL resident?


----------



## DeeBee3

Let's take bets whether Disney mentions Magic Key or APs on tomorrow's call!


----------



## WilsonFlyer

DeeBee3 said:


> Let's take bets whether Disney mentions Magic Key or APs on tomorrow's call!



I'll take the under. Name your pain threshold. I'm good for it. LOL


----------



## TsWade2

I have a feeling Disney will now announce bad news tomorrow. But I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Bibbidi_Boo

TsWade2 said:


> I have a feeling Disney will now announce bad news tomorrow. But I hope I'm wrong.



Why do you say that?


----------



## Disney mac

Bibbidi_Boo said:


> Why do you say that?


I'll bite...when was the last time Disney had "good news" for DVC members?


----------



## TsWade2

Bibbidi_Boo said:


> Why do you say that?


Disney going to have a Q3 Financial Results Meeting tomorrow and I have a feeling it might receive bad news. But like I said, I hope I’m wrong.


----------



## christophles

When you activate your renewal pass, please make sure you closely monitor the expiration date on it. Even though mine said it was a renewal for Scorcerer, when I activated it, it originally showed the expiration date as one year out from the purchase date and not one year out from when my current AP expires. I had to go to guest services to get the expiration date changed to the correct date. Also when I tried going to extended evening hours, my magic band was already linked to the renewal AP after I activated it. When my magic band was scanned for access to the rides, it was saying I didn't have a valid hotel reservation. Luckily I had my old AP card from the still valid AP (not renewal) and that scanned in just fine for rides. It was almost like the magic band was looking at the renewal AP to determine hotel eligibility after I activated it and completely ignored the still valid one. The magic band still worked fine to access the parks though so who knows what was going on that night.


----------



## Llama mama

MissLiss279 said:


> I renewed mine about a month ago. They told me that it would be already activated, and that I would not need to go to guest relations before entering my first park.
> 
> My original one does not expire until the end of this month. The new one in MDE has dates from 8/31/22 - 8/30/23.


What is the renewal price for the incredi-pass? I thought we got a 10% discount on renewal of the incredi-pass .


----------



## MissLiss279

Llama mama said:


> What is the renewal price for the incredi-pass? I thought we got a 10% discount on renewal of the incredi-pass .


I renewed my Sorcerer’s pass, but I believe when they switched to Sorcerer’s/Incredi-Pass, they got rid of the discount for the no-blackout AP. DVC only adds access to the Sorcerer’s Pass now.


----------



## Llama mama

MissLiss279 said:


> I renewed my Sorcerer’s pass, but I believe when they switched to Sorcerer’s/Incredi-Pass, they got rid of the discount for the no-blackout AP. DVC only adds access to the Sorcerer’s Pass now.


I thought just in general the gave a small discount on renewal of the incredi-pass year to year . We are out of state and always purchase no block out date annual passes.


----------



## MissLiss279

Llama mama said:


> I thought just in general the gave a small discount on renewal of the incredi-pass year to year . We are out of state and always purchase no block out date annual passes.


Oh, right. There is a general renewal discount. You should be able to Google what that is.
I am also an out-of-stater, but was able to purchase the Gold pass a couple years ago and generally do not go when there are blackout days, so it works for me.


----------



## Sandisw

Llama mama said:


> I thought just in general the gave a small discount on renewal of the incredi-pass year to year . We are out of state and always purchase no block out date annual passes.



I believe it is 15% less for renewals vs. new passes.


----------



## Sandisw

christophles said:


> When you activate your renewal pass, please make sure you closely monitor the expiration date on it. Even though mine said it was a renewal for Scorcerer, when I activated it, it originally showed the expiration date as one year out from the purchase date and not one year out from when my current AP expires. I had to go to guest services to get the expiration date changed to the correct date. Also when I tried going to extended evening hours, my magic band was already linked to the renewal AP after I activated it. When my magic band was scanned for access to the rides, it was saying I didn't have a valid hotel reservation. Luckily I had my old AP card from the still valid AP (not renewal) and that scanned in just fine for rides. It was almost like the magic band was looking at the renewal AP to determine hotel eligibility after I activated it and completely ignored the still valid one. The magic band still worked fine to access the parks though so who knows what was going on that night.



I got the renewal voucher in May for my AP that ends in March 2023...the expiration is one year from the date they gave it to me, but it is not yet active.  It sounds like things are done differently now but I will be sure when I activate that pass when I am there for my Feb trip, I will be sure to pay attention that it does indeed go to March 2024 (which would be one year from when my current AP expires)


----------



## Brian Noble

I think you got pixie-dusted; as far as I know, renewals always were contiguous with the prior pass. Probably because you were also renewing your pass very early?


----------



## Sandisw

Brian Noble said:


> I think you got pixie-dusted; as far as I know, renewals always were contiguous with the prior pass. Probably because you were also renewing your pass very early?


I was given such an early renewal because they messed up when I was there in March and took a day from my 10 day ticket instead of from my valid AP.

Since that type of ticket no longer exists, they could not give it back to me and the nagreed to let me renew early instead as it was clearly an error to have pulled the one day..the rest of the trip was done correctly and they had no idea why it did that.

So I have my current pass that goes until March 3 2023 and this new voucher that will go until March 2024 when I actually activate it  during my Feb trip.


----------



## Flynn's Gal

Llama mama said:


> What is the renewal price for the incredi-pass? I thought we got a 10% discount on renewal of the incredi-pass .


Just renewed today. $1104. before tax for the incredi-pass.


----------



## riamac

I was able to renew today. I don’t believe it’s a voucher. On MDE it’s listed as a separate pass from my original one. It’s labeled as a sorcerer pass renewal with valid dates from 10/9/22-10/8/23 (original pass expires 10/8/22).


----------



## Sandisw

riamac said:


> I was able to renew today. I don’t believe it’s a voucher. On MDE it’s listed as a separate pass from my original one. It’s labeled as a sorcerer pass renewal with valid dates from 10/9/22-10/8/23 (original pass expires 10/8/22).



Definitely things have changed in what is being done. I now wonder if those who are not eligible to get the Sorcerer  pass, but who did last year, will have difficulty if DVC is verifying and activating in one call.


----------



## Sandisw

Just to add I read  the earnings call today didn’t sound to positive for AP sales starting anytime soon because demand for them is too high?


----------



## DeeBee3

Sandisw said:


> Just to add I read  the earnings call today didn’t sound to positive for AP sales starting anytime soon because demand for them is too high?


Yes, I interpreted that those that do have some sort of AP (DL or WDW) did not give them favorable numbers compared to day guests. Unless attendance drops significantly I don't get the sense they are selling any time soon.


----------



## MalorieA

During the questions and answers session, one of the questions was asking about what actions they would take to mitigate a decrease in attendance at the parks during a recession, and the CFO’s first and only example was talking about APs and how they could change the offerings. But then she followed that up with stating that they’re  seeing NO signs of demand slowing.


----------



## MalorieA

And just to be more clear, it seems like she was referring to changing blackout dates on current APs to allow them in if things slowed down. So as far as new APs


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## BcIcemen

If I renew my AP online it says it is continuous with the old one and I do not have to go to guest services. Do I continue to use my AP card that I have now to show for discounts or do I need to get a new one?


----------



## Sandisw

BcIcemen said:


> If I renew my AP online it says it is continuous with the old one and I do not have to go to guest services. Do I continue to use my AP card that I have now to show for discounts or do I need to get a new one?



There are reports that the card is being discontinued and that for AP discounts, you need to pull your pass up in your MDE account now for those.

As a DVC member, are they allowing you to renew a Sorcerer pass online? If so, it is a change.


----------



## Sparky984

Eventually they need to let the APs lapse or put them on sale again. The program exists or it doesn’t. Perhaps the new, (direct only) DVC benefit will be that one day you can buy an AP at all…forget a ”discount.”


----------



## BcIcemen

Sandisw said:


> There are reports that the card is being discontinued and that for AP discounts, you need to pull your pass up in your MDE account now for those.
> 
> As a DVC member, are they allowing you to renew a Sorcerer pass online? If so, it is a change.


I am resale only so I am renewing the IncrediPass. My son who is a direct memeber had to call and renewed his over the phone


----------



## MinnieSueB

Perhaps when the 50th is over that demand will decrease plus with economy continuing to slide will lead back to APs.  One can hope or I may be selling some of my points.  Doesn't make sense to continue to buy tixs.


----------



## ParkHoppers

Imagine being one of the many people who recently moved to be close to Disney and you STILL can not get an AP. I feel for these people.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## christophles

Sandisw said:


> There are reports that the card is being discontinued and that for AP discounts, you need to pull your pass up in your MDE account now for those.
> 
> As a DVC member, are they allowing you to renew a Sorcerer pass online? If so, it is a change.


I did get an AP card in July that says 2022-2023 on it so at least a month ago they were still issuing cards when you activated your renewal.


----------



## wishicouldgomoreofte

I activated a DVC Platinum Pass 9/7/2021.  The next day the system changed to the new passes.  My current pass shows 9/6/2022, should have been 9/7/2022, but that is not important.  It shows a renew now tab.  When I click on it, it is renewing as an Incredi-Pass for $1,175.76.
I have another new pass voucher that I want to use.  Are they activating any new vouchers, or only renewing existing APs?  I cancelled my Sept trip, and am thinking of cancelling my Dec trip.  I want to activate my voucher, not pay money to renew.
Has anyone been allowed to activate new vouchers?


----------



## CarolynFH

wishicouldgomoreofte said:


> I activated a DVC Platinum Pass 9/7/2021.  The next day the system changed to the new passes.  My current pass shows 9/6/2022, should have been 9/7/2022, but that is not important.  It shows a renew now tab.  When I click on it, it is renewing as an Incredi-Pass for $1,175.76.
> I have another new pass voucher that I want to use.  Are they activating any new vouchers, or only renewing existing APs?  I cancelled my Sept trip, and am thinking of cancelling my Dec trip.  I want to activate my voucher, not pay money to renew.
> Has anyone been allowed to activate new vouchers?


Since you have a voucher, meaning you've already paid for a new AP, they will activate it.  If the voucher you have is for an AP that did not have any blockout dates and did have PhotoPass downloads, you will be given the current equivalent, which is an Incredi-Pass with PhotoPass downloads.

Others on the TPAS board have reported activating vouchers that they've had for some time.  Disney is not selling new vouchers, but they are activating existing vouchers.


----------



## wishicouldgomoreofte

CarolynFH said:


> Since you have a voucher, meaning you've already paid for a new AP, they will activate it.  If the voucher you have is for an AP that did not have any blockout dates and did have PhotoPass downloads, you will be given the current equivalent, which is an Incredi-Pass with PhotoPass downloads.
> 
> Others on the TPAS board have reported activating vouchers that they've had for some time.  Disney is not selling new vouchers, but they are activating existing vouchers.


Thank you, Carolyn.  That is great news.  I think the new voucher is a DVC Gold from 2012, which had PhotoPass, but I have read they are not giving PhotoPass when activating these vouchers.  They did for 2021, the first year of chance over, only, no more for future.  Have I misunderstood that?


----------



## CarolynFH

wishicouldgomoreofte said:


> Thank you, Carolyn.  That is great news.  I think the new voucher is a DVC Gold from 2012, which had PhotoPass, but I have read they are not giving PhotoPass when activating these vouchers.  They did for 2021, the first year of chance over, only, no more for future.  Have I misunderstood that?


For a DVC Gold voucher you will get the DVC Sorcerer Pass with PhotoPass Downloads. You paid for an AP with Memory Maker, so Disney should activate the equivalent for you. If they don’t, politely remind them. 

The difference will be the blockout dates - Gold had Easter & Christmas blockout dates, Sorcerer has Thanksgiving & Christmas.


----------



## Avery&Todd

Coming back with my renewal update!!

Just got off the phone from renewing our Sorcerer passes! I called the DVC line and then she stayed on the line with me while she connected us to the ticket lady (Mindy) who took payment and answered my ticket questions.

Here are the details:

* Renewed 2 passes, 1 with picture download $903 and 1 w/o pictures $813 = $1,716.78 total with taxes...

*I specifically asked Mindy if I needed to go to GS @ a park before going in and she said "NO, these are active passes and unless you want a new physical card b/c we are not using a magic band or MDE, you can skip that line and go right into the park"!

Here  wishat 1 of the tickets looks like in my MDE:


We arrive on Oct 16th so our original tickets will definitely be expired so we will test the information on being able to walk right into the park!

The whole process took less than 15 min including waiting for DVC to pick up initially!!  Super duper easy process!

Let me know if you have any questions!


----------



## CarolMN

@Avery&Todd - Thank you!  I will be doing the same in a couple of days, and your post answers all of my questions.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

wishicouldgomoreofte said:


> Thank you, Carolyn.  That is great news.  I think the new voucher is a DVC Gold from 2012, which had PhotoPass, but I have read they are not giving PhotoPass when activating these vouchers.  They did for 2021, the first year of chance over, only, no more for future.  Have I misunderstood that.



2012 is pre-Gold pass and pre-Photopass with AP's.  A voucher from then should be given an Incredi-pass with no blackout dates.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

I used an old DVC voucher to activate as a new pass in April.  Was given the equivalent of that - the Incredi-pass with no blackout dates.  Now I'm curious if it could be upgraded in some way to add Photopass downloads?


----------



## DenLo

KAT4DISNEY said:


> I used an old DVC voucher to activate as a new pass in April.  Was given the equivalent of that - the Incredi-pass with no blackout dates.  Now I'm curious if it could be upgraded in some way to add Photopass downloads?


I would think so since it is an add on to the pass.  When we renewed to a Sorcerer Pass they asked if we wanted to add on Photo Pass.  https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/p...ing-a-passholder/#drawer-card-drawerPhotoPass



> Disney PhotoPass Downloads⁵​
> Capture every magical moment with unlimited Disney PhotoPass downloads for just $99 plus tax for the year.
> With Disney PhotoPass Service, you can get everyone in the picture, with photo opportunities at select attractions and iconic park locations across Walt Disney World Resort.
> What’s Included?
> 
> Iconic, professional photos taken by Disney PhotoPass photographers
> Select attraction photos and videos
> Digital downloads of Disney PhotoPass photos and videos captured in your account from the first valid date of your pass until your pass expires
> Discounts on prints and physical product purchases
> Learn more about Disney PhotoPass service.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

DenLo said:


> I would think so since it is an add on to the pass.  When we renewed to a Sorcerer Pass they asked if we wanted to add on Photo Pass.  https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/p...ing-a-passholder/#drawer-card-drawerPhotoPass


Thanks!  My nephew wants photopass on our trip and I hadn't realized it might be possible to add it to my AP.


----------



## dcfromva

KAT4DISNEY said:


> I used an old DVC voucher to activate as a new pass in April.  Was given the equivalent of that - the Incredi-pass with no blackout dates.  Now I'm curious if it could be upgraded in some way to add Photopass downloads?


 
  Was your old voucher already on your MDE account or did you have to scan it in?


----------



## PRmamiDEdos

Ms.Minnie said:


> I know that if there isn’t an annual pass for DVC available by the time we go on our next trip which will take place in Jan 2023 we will definitely change how we do Disney.  We may buy a few day passes through Shades of Green but that isn’t a definite plan at this time.
> 
> A lot of times we go into a park just to enjoy a meal at one of the restaurants housed within the park.  I guess going forward that will change, no pass means no entry into park which means we can’t eat at favorite restaurants within park.  This could equate to a loss of revenue for the restaurants within the parks if enough people do the same thing.
> 
> I’m hoping they do bring back the DVC annual pass program along with Tables In Wonderland program.  We have enjoyed both for many years now but I guess the old saying that “all good things must come to and end” may be applicable here.  I sure hope not!


Same here. We had a big trip for the summer plus the Wine & Dine Half Marathon trip planned and out last will be January for Marathon Weekend. If AP isn’t back by then I’ll be banking/selling points going forward.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

dcfromva said:


> Was your old voucher already on your MDE account or did you have to scan it in?


I was able to enter it in a couple of years ago.


----------



## Sandisw

Well, now that they have updated the DL pass program and started renewals again, maybe we will see some new sales for WDW passes???


----------



## KPeterso

Sandisw said:


> Well, now that they have updated the DL pass program and started renewals again, maybe we will see some new sales for WDW passes???



Disneyland passes were updated. But only renewals are being allowed. No new passes yet for DL either.


----------



## DianaMB333

KPeterso said:


> Disneyland passes were updated. But only renewals are being allowed. No new passes yet for DL either.


It seems that all of them has blockout dates… right?
So… it would be AP plus holidays tickets in the budget?


----------



## RoseGold

I activated in early October 2021.  It was a lifelong dream to me to get an AP.

My renewal window is coming soon, and I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. My next trip is planned entirely within the existing pass.


----------



## pianomanzano

Would be great to hear some news on WDW APs. Ours are expiring in November and our next trip isn't until July 2023. We'd still get value out of those APs if we renewed (two 5 day trips and couple 2-3 day stays), but I'd rather just buy new starting July.


----------



## Miffy

In case anyone's interested, here's the info re the DLR passes:


----------



## KPeterso

DianaMB333 said:


> It seems that all of them has blockout dates… right?
> So… it would be AP plus holidays tickets in the budget?



Yes, all the Disneyland passes have blackout days. For the new Inspire pass (the highest), there are only 10 blackout days from 12/21 - 1/1. I have been during Christmas week many times ---- I do not feel a strong need to return during those dates. So no extra tickets for the holidays for me. All other holidays are available as are all Saturdays which is typically when I go since I work M-F.

The difference in the price from the Inspire to the Believe is $500 --- I will pretty easily make that up in shopping discounts and with the parking (20% versus 10% discount on merchandise, free versus $15 each time). While I don't love the price, I expected it to go up so this is not surprising and I planned for it. I should end my Dream Pass with about 30 visits or so for the year, so I came out ahead on it. I expect the same on the Inspire one.


----------



## Sandisw

KPeterso said:


> Disneyland passes were updated. But only renewals are being allowed. No new passes yet for DL either.



Yes, I know its just renewals, but saw it as a good sign that maybe we will also see some updating at WDW, which never did pause renewals.  Given WDW is so much larger, I am hoping it helps sales start sooner than they might at DL.


----------



## cm8

Miffy said:


> In case anyone's interested, here's the info re the DLR passes:
> View attachment 694523


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## john7994

Sandisw said:


> Yes, I know its just renewals, but saw it as a good sign that maybe we will also see some updating at WDW, which never did pause renewals.  Given WDW is so much larger, I am hoping it helps sales start sooner than they might at DL.


My take on the last earnings call from the CFO is that APs are a lever they will use - if and when park demand abates - which Disney is not currently expecting to happen even later into the year. Which means for me (sadly), I would not expect new AP sales to be starting up any time soon. All of this of course is subject to change if things don't go as Disney expects ...


----------



## Maistre Gracey

I still don’t understand why they will sell renewals. If they don’t want AP’s, stop selling renewals. If they do want AP’s, sell new AP’s. 
Makes zero sense to me.


----------



## Sandisw

Maistre Gracey said:


> I still don’t understand why they will sell renewals. If they don’t want AP’s, stop selling renewals. If they do want AP’s, sell new AP’s.
> Makes zero sense to me.



They like control? But it’s a way to keep the program without keeping the program.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

The limitation on number of reservations is a huge restriction on the AP. 

Let’s say a local has a few days booked for Christmas, and a couple for Thanksgiving. 
They cannot attend F&W because, not due to park availability, but rather because of a limit on number of reservations…???

No thanks.


----------



## Sandisw

Maistre Gracey said:


> The limitation on number of reservations is a huge restriction on the AP.
> 
> Let’s say a local has a few days booked for Christmas, and a couple for Thanksgiving.
> They cannot attend F&W because, not due to park availability, but rather because of a limit on number of reservations…???
> 
> No thanks.



The limits definitely change things up for locals who aren’t resort guests. 

I bet we see changes to the WDW passes that block the holidays out for everyone.


----------



## Duckbug.Ducktales

Do the DLR renewals qualify for a discount like WDW AP renewals?


----------



## Sandisw

Duckbug.Ducktales said:


> Do the DLR renewals qualify for a discount like WDW AP renewals?



The prices appear to be the renewal prices...at least that is what is being speculated.


----------



## SL6827

Sandisw said:


> The limits definitely change things up for locals who aren’t resort guests.
> 
> I bet we see changes to the WDW passes that block the holidays out for everyone.


Right now its just Christmas that is blocked out, right?   How long before other holidays are included?


----------



## SL6827

Sandisw said:


> The limits definitely change things up for locals who aren’t resort guests.
> 
> I bet we see changes to the WDW passes that block the holidays out for everyone.


I haven't even paid attention to the limits.  Wow.


----------



## Sandisw

SL6827 said:


> Right now its just Christmas that is blocked out, right?   How long before other holidays are included?



Sorcerer Pass for DVC owners blocks both Xmas and Thanksgiving.  Incredi Pass blocks nothing.....I think Xmas time being blocked for all WDW passes is coming to match DL.

I think this move definitely shows that Disney wants an yearly program to exist but not in anyway like it has in the past.  For a lot of DVC owners, other than those that do visit on holidays, I bet the changes won't matter much because in the end, it is still cheaper than multi day tickets.

I have mentioned before, I need an AP that gets me into the parks 30 to 40 days in a year...I don't need one to the degree a local/FL resident does so it is going to be hard to offer one that won't save me money over not having one at all.


----------



## SL6827

Sandisw said:


> Sorcerer Pass for DVC owners blocks both Xmas and Thanksgiving.  Incredi Pass blocks nothing.....I think Xmas time being blocked is coming to match DL


Oh ya.  DW will match that no doubt.


----------



## Duckbug.Ducktales

SL6827 said:


> Oh ya.  DW will match that no doubt.


Your wife has Xmas block outs?


----------



## SL6827

Duckbug.Ducktales said:


> Your wife has Xmas block outs?


Yep!!!


----------



## disfanforlife

Our ( my DH and myself) have current APs that expire 11/7. We have trip coming up beginning 11/8. I wasn’t sure how hard it would be to get Park reservations back when I booked our trip so I linked Magic Your Way tickets that I had from years ago to my MDE. But I do not plan to use them. I want to save them for a time when I may no longer use an AP or simply transfer them to one of my kids. I am going to call and renew our APs as soon as I can 60 days out. I know i read you don’t need to activate APs anymore but I am thinking I will need to stop at Guest Services to prioritize our tickets so we don’t End up using the regular tickets and not the APs. I am also unsure if I will need to make new Park Reservations as an AP holder and not just as hotel guest with tickets Or can I still use the same park reservations I already made? Anyone have any experience with that?


----------



## WilsonFlyer

I'll say it here. I have passes that expire the end of the month. I have the 30 day 'window of opportunity' until the end of September. I have held hard to 3 APs for the better part of 20 years now. I have a trip booked for Thanksgiving for a long weekend for a trip we have done for 10 years running. I am pretty sure I am going to refuse to pay a $3600 ransom just so we can go at Thanksgiving. We have an Easter trip booked also. That one's always our longest at 8 nights for F&G. I don't know what I'll do about that one yet, since it's our DD's senior year trip, but I'm probably going to let mine expire and buy a 1 or two day PH for 3 for the Thanksgiving trip and say to heck with it. Let the chips fall where they may. Disney can decide for me between now and Easter what I'll do for that week. If I can't buy a reasonably priced AP (new) by then, I'm probably done. I will wish them riddance. But the end is near at this rate. And not just for us.


----------



## CarolynFH

disfanforlife said:


> Our ( my DH and myself) have current APs that expire 11/7. We have trip coming up beginning 11/8. I wasn’t sure how hard it would be to get Park reservations back when I booked our trip so I linked Magic Your Way tickets that I had from years ago to my MDE. But I do not plan to use them. I want to save them for a time when I may no longer use an AP or simply transfer them to one of my kids. I am going to call and renew our APs as soon as I can 60 days out. I know i read you don’t need to activate APs anymore but I am thinking I will need to stop at Guest Services to prioritize our tickets so we don’t End up using the regular tickets and not the APs. I am also unsure if I will need to make new Park Reservations as an AP holder and not just as hotel guest with tickets Or can I still use the same park reservations I already made? Anyone have any experience with that?


Yes, definitely go to GR before you enter your first park and make sure the APs are prioritized to be used.  As long as you keep the MYW tickets linked to you, you won't have to make new park reservations.  

But if the park reservations you want are still available to Passholders when you renew your APs, you could transfer the MYW tickets to a "Placeholder You" at that time and avoid having to prioritize - I've read of mistakes being made and the wrong tickets being used despite having GR prioritize them - and then make new park reservations via the AP holder bucket.


----------



## Sandisw

disfanforlife said:


> Our ( my DH and myself) have current APs that expire 11/7. We have trip coming up beginning 11/8. I wasn’t sure how hard it would be to get Park reservations back when I booked our trip so I linked Magic Your Way tickets that I had from years ago to my MDE. But I do not plan to use them. I want to save them for a time when I may no longer use an AP or simply transfer them to one of my kids. I am going to call and renew our APs as soon as I can 60 days out. I know i read you don’t need to activate APs anymore but I am thinking I will need to stop at Guest Services to prioritize our tickets so we don’t End up using the regular tickets and not the APs. I am also unsure if I will need to make new Park Reservations as an AP holder and not just as hotel guest with tickets Or can I still use the same park reservations I already made? Anyone have any experience with that?



Be sure to stop at GR. That’s how they messed up my ticket.


----------



## disfanforlife

CarolynFH said:


> Yes, definitely go to GR before you enter your first park and make sure the APs are prioritized to be used.  As long as you keep the MYW tickets linked to you, you won't have to make new park reservations.
> 
> But if the park reservations you want are still available to Passholders when you renew your APs, you could transfer the MYW tickets to a "Placeholder You" at that time and avoid having to prioritize - I've read of mistakes being made and the wrong tickets being used despite having GR prioritize them - and then make new park reservations via the AP holder bucket.


Thanks, I will check on that. That sounds like a good idea if the park reservations are still available.


----------



## disfanforlife

Sandisw said:


> Be sure to stop at GR. That’s how they messed up my ticket.


Did it take a lot to get yours fixed?


----------



## Sandisw

disfanforlife said:


> Did it take a lot to get yours fixed?



I didn’t notice they had used the day until I was almost getting ready for my next trip almost two months later.  Because it has expired..it was the kind that once used, expired after 14 days…and they don’t sell that type of ticket, they allowed me to buy a renewal for my AP even  though I had 10 months left on my current one. Gave me the current value of the ticket as well..not what I paid…so I was satisfied.


----------



## Madame

Finally found an AP


----------



## Pinnochio

Sandisw said:


> Sorcerer Pass for DVC owners blocks both Xmas and Thanksgiving.  Incredi Pass blocks nothing.....I think Xmas time being blocked for all WDW passes is coming to match DL.
> 
> I think this move definitely shows that Disney wants an yearly program to exist but not in anyway like it has in the past.  For a lot of DVC owners, other than those that do visit on holidays, I bet the changes won't matter much because in the end, it is still cheaper than multi day tickets.
> 
> I have mentioned before, I need an AP that gets me into the parks 30 to 40 days in a year...I don't need one to the degree a local/FL resident does so it is going to be hard to offer one that won't save me money over not having one at all.


My AP would be just fine at 25 to 30 days


----------



## disfanforlife

Sandisw said:


> I didn’t notice they had used the day until I was almost getting ready for my next trip almost two months later.  Because it has expired..it was the kind that once used, expired after 14 days…and they don’t sell that type of ticket, they allowed me to buy a renewal for my AP even  though I had 10 months left on my current one. Gave me the current value of the ticket as well..not what I paid…so I was satisfied.


Glad that they gave you a resolution that you were satisfied with.


----------



## 4StringerBass

I’m not sure if this means anything but the Sorcerer’s Pass option is off the site.  Like a lot of you I have been watching the Annual Pas page and I noticed yesterday the only one on the page, at least when I look via mobile, is the Incredipass.


----------



## Marionnette

4StringerBass said:


> I’m not sure if this means anything but the Sorcerer’s Pass option is off the site.  Like a lot of you I have been watching the Annual Pas page and I noticed yesterday the only one on the page, at least when I look via mobile, is the Incredipass.


It's still there if you're signed in as a FL resident or qualified DVC. member. It disappears if I log out.


----------



## DVCsloth

Marionnette said:


> It's still there if you're signed in as a FL resident or qualified DVC. member. It disappears if I log out.


I'm not seeing it. Only pass I see available is Pixie Dust.


----------



## Marionnette

DVCsloth said:


> I'm not seeing it. Only pass I see available is Pixie Dust.


It's not available for purchase but I still see a Sorcerer pass listed when I'm signed in.


----------



## CarolMN

Just renewed my Sorcerers pass a few days ago.  DVC members have to call MS to do that.

When I log in to MDE or the official site and choose the link for Annual Passes, the info shows for both the Incredipass and the Socerer's pass.


----------



## we"reofftoneverland

Madame said:


> Finally found an AP


So did we and it is awesome!  Never been happier.


----------



## Madame

wereofftoneverland said:


> So did we and it is awesome!  Never been happier.


Same!  DH just picked us up - he dropped us at 9 for opening (we’re at SSR now) and we rode Gringott’s, HP Express and Hagrid’s (got some merchandise with a discount).  The parks are so clean and the TMs soooo much more upbeat.  Very happy


----------



## npatellye

I am sad to say that we’ve been having some serious discussions about the AP and our plans have changed. We plan to renew one last time in September (when our renewal window opens) to get the last few days of our November trip this year and our summer trip next year in. After that, we anticipate no longer needing them as our travel schedule will be mostly summers or the Christmas/New Year’s break. 

Originally we had planned to keep renewing as we had planned November trips with our oldest now entering fourth grade. But a new cheer gym opened much closer to home than our previous one so my girls have returned to all star cheer and our travel will now have to conform to that schedule. It’s just significantly cheaper for us to buy day tickets in the summer than it is to have APs at one trip in a 12 month AP period. Plus my oldest is now really into Harry Potter, as well, so this is probably our last renewal. And we’d like to also go to Aulani, DisneyLand, and Hilton Head in between WDW trips. Hopefully, we will start checking some of those off the list in 2024.


----------



## SL6827

How many days does it take now to justify the cost of an AP?  How many verses say 3-5 years ago?  I wonder if APs will ever get so exspensive that they will only be a good value for locals? (vloggers)


----------



## aka Charles

SL6827 said:


> How many days does it take now to justify the cost of an AP?  How many verses say 3-5 years ago?  I wonder if APs will ever get so exspensive that they will only be a good value for locals? (vloggers)


That depends on who you are and which AP you get. 
Locals can get the Pixie Dust AP for $400, so break even would be 4 days. 
If available, DVC members can get the Sorcerer’s AP for $900.
Ticket prices vary throughout the year, but a 4-day park hopper runs between $500 and $650 right now, so break even could be two 4-day trips in a year.


----------



## aka Charles

SL6827 said:


> How many days does it take now to justify the cost of an AP?  How many verses say 3-5 years ago?  I wonder if APs will ever get so exspensive that they will only be a good value for locals? (vloggers)


The one constant at WDW is prices go up. lol  
AP prices go up as regular ticket prices go up. 
I had an AP about 10 years ago and calculated that it was the better deal if we were going to do two trips in 12 months, but not one trip.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

So many ways to calculate whether it is worth it.  Single park or park hopper, standard theme park parking, discounts on resorts, merch and dining discounts, what time of year, PhotoPass and Water parks?  There are more I'm sure.


----------



## DVCsloth

We have been getting around12-14 days out of our passes. We get the Florida Resident Pirate Pass. I think renewal from Silver Pass was $594 plus tax, so maybe $50 to $60 a day for us. It has some block out dates , but for our schedule it works pretty well. I hope WDW brings back all the passes soon and I also think it does benefit Disney and I think they know it. They offer quite a few perks with the passes like dining and merchandise discounts. We have also attended some of the previews with our Passholder and DVC status.


----------



## Miffy

Out-of-state, non-DVC here. I renewed my Platinum pass-it's now an Incredi-pass--in May. $1,175. Roughly speaking, I think that's about 12 park days and since we usually take two 7- or 8-day trips a year, it's worth it. Plus the discounts on food, and we even had AP rates at resorts this year . . . altho nothing for the fall yet.


----------



## aka Charles

Ms Bibbidi said:


> How many days in a trip?  My trips are one day.


Our trips are normally 4-7 days. 

Funny thing about WDW ticket prices is that a 10-day ticket costs less than two 3-day tickets. 

A one day ticket starts at $109, add park hopper and it jumps to $174+. 

AP’s not only add park hopper, but include free parking and discounts on food, merchandise, and cash resort stays. 

Everything depends on how you “Do” WDW. 
If you do a number of short trips, AP’s are great. 
If you do one long trip in a year, maybe not.


----------



## Sandisw

SL6827 said:


> How many days does it take now to justify the cost of an AP?  How many verses say 3-5 years ago?  I wonder if APs will ever get so exspensive that they will only be a good value for locals? (vloggers)



I do 3 night trips so it doesn’t take long with the prices of the Sorcerer Two trips and I am pretty much break even as we always do park hopper.

 But, going longer can change your the figures since days get cheaper as you buy. 


Since I now do about 6 trips a year, it works out very well. But it also was why I could fly down just one night to so the GOTG preview because I had the AP for the day I arrived without worrying.


----------



## Madame

Entering the SSR DS bus queue just now and a very friendly CM jokingly noted my Hogwarts t-shirt.  I jokingly responded with “Hey, they sold me an annual pass.  Any time you guys want to sell a DVC member an annual pass, let me know.”


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Madame said:


> Entering the SSR DS bus queue just now and a very friendly CM jokingly noted my Hogwarts t-shirt.  I jokingly responded with “Hey, they sold me an annual pass.  Any time you guys want to sell a DVC member an annual pass, let me know.”


Most supremely excellent reply!


----------



## npatellye

Sandisw said:


> I do 3 night trips so it doesn’t take long with the prices of the Sorcerer Two trips and I am pretty much break even as we always do park hopper.
> 
> But, going longer can change your the figures since days get cheaper as you buy.
> 
> 
> Since I now do about 6 trips a year, it works out very well. But it also was why I could fly down just one night to so the GOTG preview because I had the AP for the day I arrived without worrying.


Exactly this. We got 18 days out of our first Gold pass (2020/2021) so that was worth it. We will get 13 days out of our Sorcerer pass in 2022, also worth it.  We should get 12 days out of our renewal between 2022/2023, also worth it. After that, though, we will only do one 7-10 night trip a year and the AP won’t be worth it, even compared to park hoppers.


----------



## DeeBee3

So there was just an article on KennythePirate about park reservations across all ticket types - no longer a distinction between AP, day ticket, or resort.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

DeeBee3 said:


> So there was just an article on KennythePirate about park reservations across all ticket types - no longer a distinction between AP, day ticket, or resort.


We will have to watch to see if this changes the buckets.


----------



## Sandisw

https://www.kennythepirate.com/2022...es-are-coming-to-park-passes-at-disney-world/

I am not sure this is about buckets but rather that those booking with a group can book everyone at the same time…

I still think APs without resort reservations have their own bucket.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sandisw said:


> https://www.kennythepirate.com/2022...es-are-coming-to-park-passes-at-disney-world/
> 
> I am not sure this is about buckets but rather that those booking with a group can book everyone at the same time…
> 
> I still think APs without resort reservations have their own bucket.


Starts tomorrow.  As of today, the first step is to choose the bucket: tickets, resort or passholder.  If tomorrow that first step is gone, it appears the buckets are gone.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Starts tomorrow.  As of today, the first step is to choose the bucket: tickets, resort or passholder.  If tomorrow that first step is gone, it appears the buckets are gone.



Interesting as my first step is to choose the guests and then it lets me just book them without choosing any bucket,

I only have to choose for me as it won’t let me book along with them as I am a pass holder. 

I guess we will see how it works tomorrow as I have reservations with my name but will try to also book for dates that don’t line up.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Interested.  Let me know how it goes, Sandi.


----------



## gharter

We have had APs for several years and loved the Gold Pass.  We had done 2 trips a year,so the APs were a great deal.  We sold one contract and now we only go once a year.  To renew our Sorcerers pass is about $100 more than our week long park hopper.  We do use the AP discount, but also have DVC and the Disney Visa card.  Not sure the AP will be worth the price any more.


----------



## Marionnette

6:54 AM EDT - there still appear to be 2 buckets but we can now modify park reservations without canceling first.


----------



## Sandisw

Things have been updated but it still appears to be buckets.  However, as an AP holder, I can now book my reservations with my friends who have multi day tickets because the choices are ticket/AP holders or resort guests, regardless of ticket type.

When I click the first option, i get a list of everyone who as an AP since my guests with tickets are tied to reservations.

What was interesting is that I have both a pass and a renewal and it now asked me to choose which one I was using for the reservation. Before, it just let me book because I had a valid AP without asking anything.  

 When I choose the second option, I got to choose which onsite stay I am booking things for and the Next screen allowed me to choose all of us on that reservation even though our ticket types are different. 

 I do not think this change means there is no behind the scenes manipulation of passes in buckets.  

  I think they simply made it easier for those of us with APs who stay onsite to book when we go with others and do it all at once.

Previously, I had to book them, and then book me.  This move does seem to confirm that those staying onsite with an AP pull from the same bucket as other resort guests, since we always could hold as many park reservations as needed as long as they meshed with a reservation


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Yes.  What I saw this morning was the Tickets availability had some yellow/orange showing some parks unavailable while the Resorts and Annual Passholder availability matched.  Used to be Tickets and Resorts matched.  So, that is different.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Yes.  What I saw this morning was the Tickets availability had some yellow/orange showing some parks unavailable while the Resorts and Annual Passholder availability matched.  Used to be Tickets and Resorts matched.  So, that is different.



I am still showing Tickets and Resort matching, with AP different.  Weird.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sandisw said:


> I am still showing Tickets and Resort matching, with AP different.  Weird.


That is odd.


----------



## Marionnette

Sandisw said:


> I am still showing Tickets and Resort matching, with AP different.  Weird.


I also see APs different from tickets. The next 3 days are fully open to APs but ticketed guests cannot book MK.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Now I am seeing Tickets and Resorts matching with the next 3 days having partial availability.  The AP bucket is all green.  That is a switch from earlier this morning.


----------



## 4StringerBass

Marionnette said:


> It's still there if you're signed in as a FL resident or qualified DVC. member. It disappears if I log out.


Yep that is what happened.  Wifey logged me out.  Thank you!


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Madame said:


> Same!  DH just picked us up - he dropped us at 9 for opening (we’re at SSR now) and we rode Gringott’s, HP Express and Hagrid’s (got some merchandise with a discount).  The parks are so clean and the TMs soooo much more upbeat.  Very happy


I’m not surprised the TM’s are more upbeat, by all accounts Universal pays better, has better benefits, and overall treats their employees better.


----------



## Miffy

Re APs in general: Despite the fears that they're going away at WDW, I don't think they are. They're still allowing renewals, they still have AP benefits that they advertise to AP holders, there's an increase in the AP discounts for part of the fall, and they just released AP discount rates for resorts--albeit not what they used to be but still better than nothing--for the fall.

And they just sent me another magnet.

Even though we're not using the fall AP discount since it didn't work for our dates at POFQ in December, we could've switched to GDT water view for about the same price as POFQ rack. We just decided to stay put--and I'm checking the discounts daily to make see if POFQ turns up for our dates. It may, and then we'll apply the discount.

I'm feeling optimistic.


----------



## Llama mama

So we are out of state Incredible pass annual pass holders. Going during a very busy holiday week but cannot renew till Sept 20 th . 
1.If AP were released for purchase, could I purchase 4 and add to my existing MDE account to book reservations. 
I know I would lose the renewal discount but securing park reservations is more important to me .
2. Also , is the only way to upgrade from park hoppers to an AP to call? 
3. Or can I upgrade just online if I want to apply the ticket cost or can I unassign those tickets and they just hang on my MDE till reassigned?


----------



## Sandisw

Llama mama said:


> So we are out of state Incredible pass annual pass holders. Going during a very busy holiday week but cannot renew till Sept 20 th .
> 1.If AP were released for purchase, could I purchase 4 and add to my existing MDE account to book reservations.
> I know I would lose the renewal discount but securing park reservations is more important to me .
> 2. Also , is the only way to upgrade from park hoppers to an AP to call?
> 3. Or can I upgrade just online if I want to apply the ticket cost or can I unassign those tickets and they just hang on my MDE till reassigned?



Yes, if sales start again, you can buy a new ticket to get your park reservations. 

I have only be able to upgrade tickets to my renewal AP in person. I don’t know if it can be done  by phone but definitely not by MS. 

If you decide not to use tickets you buy to go toward a renewal cost, then yes, reassign them and the value will stay until you put them toward something else. 

Since they would be date based, they will disappear after those dates pass, but will be there behind the scenes for ticketing to see


----------



## WilsonFlyer

In the category, 'You just can't make this stuff up" today...

WDW announced a 30% discount at Disney owned merchandise locations throughout WDW resort (resort-wide) from Sept 14-Oct 14.

New AP sales? Mute.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

The AP pause I’m sure did start because of the lawsuit.  However, now?  They’re hitting their own artificial attendance caps nearly every day even in low times.  They make a lot more money selling day tickets than AP’s.  I don’t think we should expect to see AP’s any time soon


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> The AP pause I’m sure did start because of the lawsuit.  However, now?  They’re hitting their own artificial attendance caps nearly every day even in low times.  They make a lot more money selling day tickets than AP’s.  I don’t think we should expect to see AP’s any time soon


Warning:  This post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinion.  

I think you are right about the lawsuit starting the AP pause.  The way they were using buckets to manipulate availability among types of guests was a concern to their lawyers.  That is not entirely concluded.  But, I also agree with your view that they have been hitting their own reduced attendance caps.  It is all green right now for both buckets, but they still are not restarting new sales of annual passes.  So, that says something.  New sales of annual passes are a longer term commitment.  Offering magnets, discounts on merch, ticket deals to foreign markets and discounts on rooms are all short term manipulation.  So are the "bonus days" for APs.  (Although the last two were on Saturday and Sunday and Pixie was blocked from using those bonus days.)  

I saw this information and it is new.  I haven't seen it discussed on the DisBoards or in any other forum.  

"Recent price hikes at Disney's theme parks have seen the company's profits surge despite a slump in visitors - leading many to accuse the parks of ripping off loyal customers in order to bolster their bottom line.​
Since reopening in April of last year, the company has made a host of changes to its preeminent parks in Florida and California, nixing free perks and ramping up prices, causing the cost of a visit to a Disney resort to rise dramatically.​
*Visitor numbers at the park have plunged by 17 per cent* - but the profit Disney makes on each guest has increased by 17 per cent in a year, helping turbocharge the firm's profits."​[Emphasis added.]  (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-park-profits-jump-five-fold-2-2-billion.html, Daily Mail, pub. 28 August 2022, accessed 29 August 2022.)​​Remember, Ms. McCarthy, CFO, said in the Q3 22 earnings call that attendance numbers were a little below 2019.  We didn't know how much.  Now it appears 17% lower -- possibly.  

IIRC in 2019 WDW had 58,000,000 guests.  So, 17% of 58,000,000 is 9,860,000 fewer visits.  Assume for a moment for purposes of calculation that they are all passholders.  If you average 20 visits per AP holder per year, that's 493,000 fewer outstanding APs to sell.  I did a previous calculation based on previously published information of about 33% to 35% of the WDW crowd were annual passholders.  It looks like it is possible that Disney capped AP sales to about half of what they usually sold as of about 2019.  There are your missing AP slots!  

Now combine that with the additional fact that when they opened up new sales again on September 8, 2021, that 40% of the new sales were new AP holders.  If they wanted a goal of reducing outstanding APs in the crowd by reducing new AP sales, they probably have a long way to go to have enough AP inventory from people not renewing to open new AP sales again.  

Earlier, in about late November 2021 when Disney first paused sales of new annual passes, a Disney representative said the pause would be until sometime in 2022.  Of course, that was right after the lawsuit was filed and Disney probably thought they would get it dismissed based on their language in the terms and conditions.  As we know, the Judge ruled on that in May 2022 and that did not happen.  The bloggers thought the pause was due to the holiday crowds or difficulty in hiring employees.  That didn't account for the long pause either.  But, a combination of the lawsuit removing the two buckets as a manipulation, capping the attendance capacity at 17% lower and capping annual pass sales does account for the lack of new sales of APs.  Based on all of this, I agree with you.  I don't expect new annual pass sales to re-open any time soon.  The tea leaves indicate otherwise.


----------



## MalorieA

I actually got a flash of hope last night when I randomly checked my cart and saw 3 sorcerer passes that I had added back when there was that glitch a couple of months ago. They had disappeared after that glitch. I tried to purchase like 3 times last night and it kept giving an error message. At about 4 this morning I tried again (haha), and it actually went through (it made me do something different like enter each of our birthdays). I immediately got an email with the subject “Walt Disney World Confirmation!” but the actual email said it was still processing. Then 2 hours later another email saying the order couldn’t be processed. So I’m guessing IT was at it again. It was a wild ride though


----------



## Mexacajun

MalorieA said:


> I actually got a flash of hope last night when I randomly checked my cart and saw 3 sorcerer passes that I had added back when there was that glitch a couple of months ago. They had disappeared after that glitch. I tried to purchase like 3 times last night and it kept giving an error message. At about 4 this morning I tried again (haha), and it actually went through (it made me do something different like enter each of our birthdays). I immediately got an email with the subject “Walt Disney World Confirmation!” but the actual email said it was still processing. Then 2 hours later another email saying the order couldn’t be processed. So I’m guessing IT was at it again. It was a wild ride though


Whoa! You should definitely call and plead your case!


----------



## MalorieA

Mexacajun said:


> Whoa! You should definitely call and plead your case!


Well I definitely would call if I had gotten an actual confirmation number or if the credit card had been charged. I’d probably just get the canned response from them about new APs not being offered at this time. 
I’m just going to stay hopeful. I read a post on another forum from a supposed “insider” that said they’re still planning on restarting new sales “as far as he knows” at the end of the year. So


----------



## MalorieA

Mexacajun said:


> Whoa! You should definitely call and plead your case!


Ok so I ended up emailing Josh d’amaro, Jeff vahle, and bob with my situation, screenshots of the emails, and how I purchased another contract thinking that APs would be returning etc. Just throwing darts…. I’ll let y’all know if I get a response. 
Oh and I spoke with chat and they did give me the canned response. “Sorry for the false hope. No communication on when APs would be returning”


----------



## CarolynFH

I think some of us were wondering what would happen when the white-card members who bought and activated APs last year went to renew them.  This afternoon, DH reported a FB post from someone in that situation - who was not allowed to renew.


----------



## Sandisw

CarolynFH said:


> I think some of us were wondering what would happen when the white-card members who bought and activated APs last year went to renew them.  This afternoon, DH reported a FB post from someone in that situation - who was not allowed to renew.



Thanks for sharing.  I had a feeling.


----------



## SL6827

CarolynFH said:


> I think some of us were wondering what would happen when the white-card members who bought and activated APs last year went to renew them.  This afternoon, DH reported a FB post from someone in that situation - who was not allowed to renew.


Why weren't they?  I must be missing something.


----------



## PolyRob

SL6827 said:


> Why weren't they?  I must be missing something.


White card DVC members purchased resale contracts after 4/4/16 that are no longer eligible for membership extras or fall below the new direct minimum purchase threshold of 150 and aren't grandfathered.

Only blue card DVC members with direct purchases of varying amounts (it's changed a few times) or grandfathered resale contracts (purchased prior to 4/4/16) are eligible for membership extras including the discounted DVC Sorcerer's Pass.


----------



## SL6827

PolyRob said:


> White card DVC members purchased resale contracts after 4/4/16 that are no longer eligible for membership extras. Only blue card DVC members with direct purchases of varying amounts (it's changed a few times) or grandfathered DVC resale contracts (purchased prior to 4/4/16) are eligible for membership extras including the discounted DVC Sorcerer's Pass.


Oh, I think I remember now.


----------



## corpcomp

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Warning:  This post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinion.
> 
> I think you are right about the lawsuit starting the AP pause.  The way they were using buckets to manipulate availability among types of guests was a concern to their lawyers.  That is not entirely concluded.  But, I also agree with your view that they have been hitting their own reduced attendance caps.  It is all green right now for both buckets, but they still are not restarting new sales of annual passes.  So, that says something.  New sales of annual passes are a longer term commitment.  Offering magnets, discounts on merch, ticket deals to foreign markets and discounts on rooms are all short term manipulation.  So are the "bonus days" for APs.  (Although the last two were on Saturday and Sunday and Pixie was blocked from using those bonus days.)
> 
> I saw this information and it is new.  I haven't seen it discussed on the DisBoards or in any other forum.
> 
> "Recent price hikes at Disney's theme parks have seen the company's profits surge despite a slump in visitors - leading many to accuse the parks of ripping off loyal customers in order to bolster their bottom line.​
> Since reopening in April of last year, the company has made a host of changes to its preeminent parks in Florida and California, nixing free perks and ramping up prices, causing the cost of a visit to a Disney resort to rise dramatically.​
> *Visitor numbers at the park have plunged by 17 per cent* - but the profit Disney makes on each guest has increased by 17 per cent in a year, helping turbocharge the firm's profits."​[Emphasis added.]  (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-park-profits-jump-five-fold-2-2-billion.html, Daily Mail, pub. 28 August 2022, accessed 29 August 2022.)​​Remember, Ms. McCarthy, CFO, said in the Q3 22 earnings call that attendance numbers were a little below 2019.  We didn't know how much.  Now it appears 17% lower -- possibly.
> 
> IIRC in 2019 WDW had 58,000,000 guests.  So, 17% of 58,000,000 is 9,860,000 fewer visits.  Assume for a moment for purposes of calculation that they are all passholders.  If you average 20 visits per AP holder per year, that's 493,000 fewer outstanding APs to sell.  I did a previous calculation based on previously published information of about 33% to 35% of the WDW crowd were annual passholders.  It looks like it is possible that Disney capped AP sales to about half of what they usually sold as of about 2019.  There are your missing AP slots!
> 
> Now combine that with the additional fact that when they opened up new sales again on September 8, 2021, that 40% of the new sales were new AP holders.  If they wanted a goal of reducing outstanding APs in the crowd by reducing new AP sales, they probably have a long way to go to have enough AP inventory from people not renewing to open new AP sales again.
> 
> Earlier, in about late November 2021 when Disney first paused sales of new annual passes, a Disney representative said the pause would be until sometime in 2022.  Of course, that was right after the lawsuit was filed and Disney probably thought they would get it dismissed based on their language in the terms and conditions.  As we know, the Judge ruled on that in May 2022 and that did not happen.  The bloggers thought the pause was due to the holiday crowds or difficulty in hiring employees.  That didn't account for the long pause either.  But, a combination of the lawsuit removing the two buckets as a manipulation, capping the attendance capacity at 17% lower and capping annual pass sales does account for the lack of new sales of APs.  Based on all of this, I agree with you.  I don't expect new annual pass sales to re-open any time soon.  The tea leaves indicate otherwise.


It still is packed to the gills every time I go


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

corpcomp said:


> It still is packed to the gills every time I go


I do not know if you have ever been in a Disney park, prior to 2020, when they refused further entry.  (“Fire Marshall capacity.”)  Generally, the 2019 crowds were less than that even on very busy days.  I understand MK was like that on Christmas and NYE.  But the current cap is 83% of a 2019 generally very busy day.  Just taking 17% crowd reduction has changed the emotional stress component enough so even though there are fewer people, they are more relaxed and spending 17% more.  “Packed to the gills” could have a lot of variance.


----------



## corpcomp

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I do not know if you have ever been in a Disney park, prior to 2020, when they refused further entry.  (“Fire Marshall capacity.”)  Generally, the 2019 crowds were less than that even on very busy days.  I understand MK was like that on Christmas and NYE.  But the current cap is 83% of a 2019 generally very busy day.  Just taking 17% crowd reduction has changed the emotional stress component enough so even though there are fewer people, they are more relaxed and spending 17% more.  “Packed to the gills” could have a lot of variance.


My definition of packed to the gills during F&W last time I was there. If the pic violates some rule, please remove.


----------



## SL6827

The more I put off what could be our very last trip, the worse its going to get.


----------



## IceSkatingPrincess

I renewed our sorcerer passes (direct points) last week and it was a massive pain. Had to call and wait for DVC to answer, validate all information and eligibility with DVC. Then DVC had to transfer me elsewhere to do the actual purchase (which was a 45min hold time), and I had to give most of the information again once over there.

I'm glad that we were able to renew (especially before any announcement comes because I'm sure a price hike will come too), but the whole thing took like an hour and a half, which seems kind of insane. They'd happily let me upgrade to an incredipass using self-service online, though.


----------



## corpcomp

IceSkatingPrincess said:


> I renewed our sorcerer passes (direct points) last week and it was a massive pain. Had to call and wait for DVC to answer, validate all information and eligibility with DVC. Then DVC had to transfer me elsewhere to do the actual purchase (which was a 45min hold time), and I had to give most of the information again once over there.
> 
> I'm glad that we were able to renew (especially before any announcement comes because I'm sure a price hike will come too), but the whole thing took like an hour and a half, which seems kind of insane. They'd happily let me upgrade to an incredipass using self-service online, though.


Sorry the process is so painful but you got to renew. I dread the day they announce that APs are being eliminated.


----------



## CJK

We were able to renew earlier this week. We are out of state, non-DVC. We had hoped that we could renew online, but there was an error message (that I’ve seen for several weeks). We called the AP phone line, and got through in 10 minutes. We have to buy the Incred pass since we are out of state. No trouble, and it immediately showed up in my account right away.


----------



## js

I am just making sure I have this correct for next month.

Our APs expire in November. One IncrediPass (that is my mom who does not live with me) and one is Sorcerer Pass (I have for DVC).
If I renew right away, the renewal of my pass begins on the day I renew.

However, if I wait until the end of our trip (which is 12 days later), I can renew then and start the clock, almost two weeks later.
Is above correct?

The last week of our trip is at BWVs so we can just walk to Epcot International Gateway CS and get it done there, is this also correct?

Where do I find the prices to renew so we are prepared.

Thank you all so much!


----------



## DonMacGregor

This is not intended to offend or get anyone riled up (), but the announcement of the new DVC lounge in Disneyland makes for a very satisfying "substitution" for those of us on the West Coast, or anyone who doesn't really get the full benefit from a WDW AP. We just don't have that many park days (and we DO spend on average 10 to 15 night per year at WDW) to make spending the $$ on an AP worthwhile. Having a lounge to visit, especially when simply visiting the parks, is a welcome addition to our Membership Extras.


----------



## CarolMN

js said:


> Our APs expire in November. One IncrediPass (that is my mom who does not live with me) and one is Sorcerer Pass (I have for DVC).
> If I renew right away, the renewal of my pass begins on the day I renew.


Your renewal pass year begins on the day your current pass expires.  ( It just won't require you to visit Guest Services before you begin using it).  Your mother's renewal pass year would also begin on the day her current pass expires.  It doesn't matter when you renew.


----------



## Sandisw

js said:


> I am just making sure I have this correct for next month.
> 
> Our APs expire in November. One IncrediPass (that is my mom who does not live with me) and one is Sorcerer Pass (I have for DVC).
> If I renew right away, the renewal of my pass begins on the day I renew.
> 
> However, if I wait until the end of our trip (which is 12 days later), I can renew then and start the clock, almost two weeks later.
> Is above correct?
> 
> The last week of our trip is at BWVs so we can just walk to Epcot International Gateway CS and get it done there, is this also correct?
> 
> Where do I find the prices to renew so we are prepared.
> 
> Thank you all so much!



No.  Renewals begin as soon as the old one ends. For example, if youe current pass ended September 15th, 2022, no matter when you renew, the clock starts on September 15th, and goes until September 15th, 2023.


----------



## js

CarolMN said:


> Your renewal pass year begins on the day your current pass expires.  ( It just won't require you to visit Guest Services before you begin using it).  Your mother's renewal pass year would also begin on the day her current pass expires.  It doesn't matter when you renew.





Sandisw said:


> No.  Renewals begin as soon as the old one ends. For example, if youe current pass ended September 15th, 2022, no matter when you renew, the clock starts on September 15th, and goes until September 15th, 2023.


Wow! Great news! Thank you so much!
So even if I renew in October, November is when my new pass would renew since that is when old pass expires.
I did not think that was the case.
Thank you m


----------



## wishicouldgomoreofte

aka Charles said:


> Our trips are normally 4-7 days.
> 
> Funny thing about WDW ticket prices is that a 10-day ticket costs less than two 3-day tickets.
> 
> A one day ticket starts at $109, add park hopper and it jumps to $174+.
> 
> AP’s not only add park hopper, but include free parking and discounts on food, merchandise, and cash resort stays.
> 
> Everything depends on how you “Do” WDW.
> If you do a number of short trips, AP’s are great.
> If you do one long trip in a year, maybe not.


I have had APs since 1995 and live 2600 miles away round trip.  I take 2 trips with the pass, about 50-51 weeks apart.  I also get park hopper, parking, dining discounts, and hotel discounts, though I have been DVC since 2007 and don't use hotel discounts anymore.  So 14-20 park days per AP was worth it, until APs got so crazy high!  I bought several AP certificates before retiring, as a hedge against inflation.  I don't even compare  to multi-day prices.  I just hope they will continue to activate my AP certificates until gone.  After that, or if they won't honor them, I will look at ticket prices.  My point is, you can take more than one trip a year with an AP, timed almost a year apart, so in effect getting 2 years under one AP.  I have been doing it since 1995.


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## jimim

IceSkatingPrincess said:


> I renewed our sorcerer passes (direct points) last week and it was a massive pain. Had to call and wait for DVC to answer, validate all information and eligibility with DVC. Then DVC had to transfer me elsewhere to do the actual purchase (which was a 45min hold time), and I had to give most of the information again once over there.
> 
> I'm glad that we were able to renew (especially before any announcement comes because I'm sure a price hike will come too), but the whole thing took like an hour and a half, which seems kind of insane. They'd happily let me upgrade to an incredipass using self-service online, though.


i wish i lost a whole day to renew mine.  one of the dumbest thing  i ever did was giving them up during covid. i guess i learned.

wait i got to edit this.  90 mins to go it. . . used to take me 3 hours to see when my refund money was coming back to me when i gave them up. . .


----------



## musical2

IceSkatingPrincess said:


> I renewed our sorcerer passes (direct points) last week and it was a massive pain. Had to call and wait for DVC to answer, validate all information and eligibility with DVC. Then DVC had to transfer me elsewhere to do the actual purchase (which was a 45min hold time), and I had to give most of the information again once over there.
> 
> I'm glad that we were able to renew (especially before any announcement comes because I'm sure a price hike will come too), but the whole thing took like an hour and a half, which seems kind of insane. They'd happily let me upgrade to an incredipass using self-service online, though.


I'm on hold now with Member Services.  First I was on hold for about 25 minutes waiting for the first person.  Now I am on hold for about another 30 minutes so far waiting for DVC to transfer me to the person who can actually sell me my Sorcerer's renewal.  So it really is a pain.


----------



## Mexacajun

musical2 said:


> I'm on hold now with Member Services.  First I was on hold for about 25 minutes waiting for the first person.  Now I am on hold for about another 30 minutes so far waiting for DVC to transfer me to the person who can actually sell me my Sorcerer's renewal.  So it really is a pain.


I will say that I would take that pain over the pain of that having one.


----------



## Debbie Jean

Mexacajun said:


> I will say that I would take that pain over the pain of that having one.


I totally understand.

My sorcerer’s AP will come due for renewal in a couple of weeks and while I’m not looking forward to jumping through hoops, I am so glad I renewed it when I did originally. Hopefully this is something that all members can access soon. Really, it’s the last best member perk there is.


----------



## CarolynFH

musical2 said:


> I'm on hold now with Member Services.  First I was on hold for about 25 minutes waiting for the first person.  Now I am on hold for about another 30 minutes so far waiting for DVC to transfer me to the person who can actually sell me my Sorcerer's renewal.  So it really is a pain.


Wow, when we renewed in February and March, we didn't have any such hoops to jump through.  Called MS, told the CM what we wanted, gave our CC number, and it was done. I'm sad to hear this is now the process!


----------



## Sandisw

CarolynFH said:


> Wow, when we renewed in February and March, we didn't have any such hoops to jump through.  Called MS, told the CM what we wanted, gave our CC number, and it was done. I'm sad to hear this is now the process!



It sounds like the process changed when they changed it to giving you an actual pass that has the dates of your actual pass.

It sounds like this way, to buy the pass, DVC has to verify you first. Last year, people Who were not eligible for the Sorcerer pass we’re able to get it buy calling the AP line and those CMs not having a way to see the difference in those eligible.

I got my voucher  in May so the process changed sometime after that this summer.


----------



## CarolynFH

Sandisw said:


> It sounds like the process changed when they changed it to giving you an actual pass that has the dates of your actual pass.
> 
> It sounds like this way, to buy the pass, DVC has to verify you first. Last year, people Who were not eligible for the Sorcerer pass we’re able to get it buy calling the AP line and those CMs not having a way to see the difference in those eligible.
> 
> I got my voucher  in May so the process changed sometime after that this summer.


Yes, that's what it sounds like.  So either spend extra time on the phone buying it or extra time going to GR to prove eligibility before using the renewed AP!


----------



## corpcomp

js said:


> Wow! Great news! Thank you so much!
> So even if I renew in October, November is when my new pass would renew since that is when old pass expires.
> I did not think that was the case.
> Thank you m


My  passes expire in November. Member Services told me last week I can renew in a window of 60 days before and 30 days after the expiration date to get the discount or renewal price and as Sandisw said, they are effective the date your old pass expires.


----------



## MinnieSueB

I was told that we no longer need to go to Guest Services to activate so that's a time saver at least.


----------



## MICKIMINI

MinnieSueB said:


> I was told that we no longer need to go to Guest Services to activate so that's a time saver at least.


We renewed last week.  We will go to GS to get *hard cards* for all four of us.  Last October and again in May, we had to whip them out a few times for discounts when our MDE was glitchy.  DH and I are not tech saavy.

I renewed on the day we were eligible 60 days ahead as now that we are AP holders we don't want to let them lapse or face some announcement that renewals won't happen in the future.  Price increases are inevitable, however I was able to renew at current prices.


----------



## AnnaS

MinnieSueB said:


> I was told that we no longer need to go to Guest Services to activate so that's a time saver at least.





MICKIMINI said:


> We renewed last week.  We will go to GS to get *hard cards* for all four of us.  Last October and again in May, we had to whip them out a few times for discounts when our MDE was glitchy.  DH and I are not tech saavy.
> 
> I renewed on the day we were eligible 60 days ahead as now that we are AP holders we don't want to let them lapse or face some announcement that renewals won't happen in the future.  Price increases are inevitable, however I was able to renew at current prices.



Yes, same here.  It's nice not to have to stop by Guest Services but we will most likely stop by and get hard cards ourselves.  Even though I just bought a new phone, I don't like to rely on m phone 100% of the time, add service, low battery, etc.


----------



## js

corpcomp said:


> My  passes expire in November. Member Services told me last week I can renew in a window of 60 days before and 30 days after the expiration date to get the discount or renewal price and as Sandisw said, they are effective the date your old pass expires.


Thank you very much.
I will renew in October for my November passes.



MinnieSueB said:


> I was told that we no longer need to go to Guest Services to activate so that's a time saver at least.


Hi. We will be in Disney next month. Where can I go to get this done other than GS?
Thank you.


----------



## MinnieSueB

js said:


> Thank you very much.
> I will renew in October for my November passes.
> 
> 
> Hi. We will be in Disney next month. Where can I go to get this done other than GS?
> Thank you.


If you are referring to activating your AP, there is no need.  Should be activated and ready to go.  I'll be testing this out with our October trip.


----------



## Miffy

I read a couple months ago that now when you have to prove you've got an active AP--for dining discounts, e.g.--you have to show the info on your phone from MDE, which does show one's pass and expiration date. In fact, my MDE shows my AP and my sister's.

I don't know if this is different for DVC members, but for those of you who don't want to rely on your phones, please check into this.


----------



## pianomanzano

Miffy said:


> I read a couple months ago that now when you have to prove you've got an active AP--for dining discounts, e.g.--you have to show the info on your phone from MDE, which does show one's pass and expiration date. In fact, my MDE shows my AP and my sister's.
> 
> I don't know if this is different for DVC members, but for those of you who don't want to rely on your phones, please check into this.


It's the same for DVC discounts. I've only had it checked for dining though, not yet for merch.


----------



## kboo

Just returned from a week - On a few occasions was asked to show the physical AP card (phone wasn't enough!) and on one occasion was asked for a photo ID in addition to the plastic card AND my phone.


----------



## Sandisw

MinnieSueB said:


> If you are referring to activating your AP, there is no need.  Should be activated and ready to go.  I'll be testing this out with our October trip.



Those renewing now do not but if someone purchased before they changed the process, one does have activate at GR. 

My renewal that I got in May is still a voucher an need to be activated.


----------



## Prince John Robin Hood

kboo said:


> Just returned from a week - On a few occasions was asked to show the physical AP card (phone wasn't enough!) and on one occasion was asked for a photo ID in addition to the plastic card AND my phone.


I was asked for ID multiple times on my trip.  Found it a bit much for 10% off on dining.  I never had to show the physical card though, just phone.


----------



## RivShore

kboo said:


> Just returned from a week - On a few occasions was asked to show the physical AP card (phone wasn't enough!) and on one occasion was asked for a photo ID in addition to the plastic card AND my phone.


We were there last week too and half the time, the phone was enough and the rest of the time they asked for phone and ID.  Never had anyone ask for all 3, you are the winner apparently. LOL


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Dining didn’t ask me for proof - just accepted my word. Stores wanted to see proof. One was happy with wallet, other wanted to see wallet & my tickets section in MDE showing expiration date of AP.


----------



## DeeBee3

I think it depends on the CM. Just for DVC discounts I've been asked for card, phone and/or ID.


----------



## Sandisw

DeeBee3 said:


> I think it depends on the CM. Just for DVC discounts I've been asked for card, phone and/or ID.



I agree.  I have always had to show proof of my DVC for food and dining discounts.  Most of the time, ID was only for shopping...but they have asked it at a few places for dining.  However, since they went digital, I have not had to show my ID as much as before.


----------



## Shikedants

Just renewed our Sorcerer's pass today.  Minimum hassle.  $813 is a good deal.  Any Disney market researcher, disregard my comment though.


----------



## AnnaS

kboo said:


> Just returned from a week - On a few occasions was asked to show the physical AP card (phone wasn't enough!) and on one occasion was asked for a photo ID in addition to the plastic card AND my phone.



I guess the QR code on the phone is not enough.  Why do they even bother.  

But then again, we can hand over our phone to another person in our party who does not qualify for a discount?  And if that was the case, we could just purchase the item for that person.  They will eventually get it together - I hope.


----------



## Sandisw

AnnaS said:


> I guess the QR code on the phone is not enough.  Why do they even bother.



The QR code doesn't get used.  It is the notation of DVC Y they are looking for.  I think the reason that the ID isn't done as much is that most people wont be giving their phone/watch to a stranger to use for discounts.

But, the rules are that you show DVC Y/ or AP, and ID to prove as discounts are for the person, not everyone in the person's group.


----------



## AnnaS

Sandisw said:


> The QR code doesn't get used.  It is the notation of DVC Y they are looking for.  I think the reason that the ID isn't done as much is that most people wont be giving their phone/watch to a stranger to use for discounts.
> 
> But, the rules are that you show DVC Y/ or AP, and ID to prove as discounts are for the person, not everyone in the person's group.



I think I got it - I thought the QR Code was "new" and that might have been enough.  

We are always asked for ID for shopping with discount/we have no problem with it (learned to carry everything regardless of what they come up with).

Some waiters take our word for it and don't even ask for our membership card/id.


----------



## jo-jo

In April, we ate at Boma and wasn't sure how to find DVC on our phone, server said that's ok, I put it in as AP.  He said DVC needs manager ok, so AP is easier.


----------



## SL6827

I can't imagine with what Disney pays, that many CMs would really care. What a joke.  I wouldn't want to start a argument over such if I were a CM.


----------



## Sandisw

SL6827 said:


> I can't imagine with what Disney pays, that many CMs would really care. What a joke.  I wouldn't want to start a argument over such if I were a CM.



There should be no argument because if someone is not eligible, they are not eligible.  

But, as I said, they have changed the process and even renewing by phone take longer because of it.  The renewals are now active passes so DVC verifies and then sends you to ticketing to over the phone.  

From what I have heard, if you call ticketing directly, they refer you to DVC first,…they weren’t doing that last year so obviously Disney does care that only those eligible get passes


----------



## TomorrowlandOfYesterday

SL6827 said:


> I can't imagine with what Disney pays, that many CMs would really care. What a joke.  I wouldn't want to start a argument over such if I were a CM.



Can you imagine starting an argument with someone who is just following policy and has no say in the matter?

So bizarre.


----------



## kboo

jo-jo said:


> In April, we ate at Boma and wasn't sure how to find DVC on our phone, server said that's ok, I put it in as AP.  He said DVC needs manager ok, so AP is easier.


At one of the restaurants, I was paying by Magic Band (How quaint!) and started to pull out my AP card, and the server pretty much waved it away since when you scan the MB it indeed says DVC and AP ...


----------



## cm8

kboo said:


> At one of the restaurants, I was paying by Magic Band (How quaint!) and started to pull out my AP card, and the server pretty much waved it away since when you scan the MB it indeed says DVC and AP ...


So why all the hassle? It’s not like you can use someone else’s MB to charge unless they have you the PIN?


----------



## WilsonFlyer

cm8 said:


> So why all the hassle? It’s not like you can use someone else’s MB to charge unless they have you the PIN?



Because if they hassle you about it, they know some people don't like it and just not 'bother.' They get to keep that 10%. Now some people won't like that answer, but it's the only one that's ever made sense to me.


----------



## Sandisw

cm8 said:


> So why all the hassle? It’s not like you can use someone else’s MB to charge unless they have you the PIN?



Actually not all the restaurants have you enter the pin.   We have had it happen a few times. 

Personally, don’t see it as a hassle to have to show my pass.  I actually love having the digital card as I can just show on my watch.


----------



## kboo

Sandisw said:


> Actually not all the restaurants have you enter the pin.   We have had it happen a few times.
> 
> Personally, don’t see it as a hassle to have to show my pass.  I actually love having the digital card as I can just show on my watch.


My point about the “hassle” was even with charging to a MB (which I had to use to enter the park, with a fingerprint), they asked to see a photo ID. I’m paying with a MB that has all the info on it and is verified by a fingerprint to enter the park, and I was buying something IN a park.. And in the stores, I also have to enter the pin.


----------



## Sandisw

kboo said:


> My point about the “hassle” was even with charging to a MB (which I had to use to enter the park, with a fingerprint), they asked to see a photo ID. I’m paying with a MB that has all the info on it and is verified by a fingerprint to enter the park, and I was buying something IN a park.. And in the stores, I also have to enter the pin.



But you can easily give your MB to someone to use..not a stranger but a family member is wouldn’t entitled to the discount.

And, if you enter first thing, they don’t always have you use the fingerprint.

Plus, I have a ton of magic bands so it be pretty easy for me to give one to all my group to use without me.  

I guess I still don’t see why it’s a hassle at all. I keep my ID on my phone now and flash that and my DVC Y, especially when that is what the rules say you need to do to get the discounts.


----------



## Debbie Jean

Sandisw said:


> But you can easily give your MB to someone to use..not a stranger but a family member is wouldn’t entitled to the discount.
> 
> And, if you enter first thing, they don’t always have you use the fingerprint.
> 
> Plus, I have a ton of magic bands so it be pretty easy for me to give one to all my group to use without me.
> 
> I guess I still don’t see why it’s a hassle at all. I keep my ID on my phone now and flash that and my DVC Y, especially when that is what the rules say you need to do to get the discounts.


I can’t see the hassle either. I keep my license and AP card along with my phone in a zippered front pocket of my purse.  At a restaurant I just take them out and set them on the table ready to give my server. Same if I buy something, at the cash register.  Never considered that verifying my information was a hassle. I must be too compliant! LOL


----------



## RoseGold

Your MB showed you were DVC before Covid too.  In the late hours, you could see on their scanner that you were staying in X Hotel and that you were DVC.  Of course, it was just a MB, and I had a dozen I could have loaned out to whoever.

The problem is they made a million DVC rules, which made a bunch of categories of member, and the IT can't handle all the little categories.


----------



## Sandisw

RoseGold said:


> Your MB showed you were DVC before Covid too.  In the late hours, you could see on their scanner that you were staying in X Hotel and that you were DVC.  Of course, it was just a MB, and I had a dozen I could have loaned out to whoever.
> 
> The problem is they made a million DVC rules, which made a bunch of categories of member, and the IT can't handle all the little categories.



Has nothing to do with IT, though.  Showing ID along with proof of eligibility is part of the rules.  

Take DVC out of it…it’s the requirement of an AP as well.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

And honestly, there are what, 5-6 'rules?' And they are 'handled' by IT through algorithms already in place all day every day.


----------



## ScubaCat

DeeBee3 said:


> I think it depends on the CM. Just for DVC discounts I've been asked for card, phone and/or ID.





SL6827 said:


> I can't imagine with what Disney pays, that many CMs would really care. What a joke.  I wouldn't want to start a argument over such if I were a CM.





TomorrowlandOfYesterday said:


> Can you imagine starting an argument with someone who is just following policy and has no say in the matter?
> 
> So bizarre.



It's always the manager (or the manager's manager) that determines how strict the policy is at a particular location. I've been given the discount for meals costing over $700 without them even wanting to see the card, and been carded strictly for a bottle of water. You just never know.

Gentle reminder to please make an effort to NEVER give front line CM's any hassle or attitude over this. They're often under tremendous pressure for not the greatest wages. I realize it can be frustrating, but there are better channels to vent this and not direct it at a cashier who's just doing his or her job.


----------



## RivShore

From our Stock News thread comes this bit from Bob 2.0, they do have quite a dilemma with AP's.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/disney-bob-chapek-d23-interview-1235216556/


*You’re known as a guy who cuts costs and raises prices. You’ve raised the prices pretty stiffly [for some streaming plans] and the parks. And you’ve gotten some blowback from superfans. How much can you keep raising prices and does ill will from them create a problem for the brand?*

We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. But at the same time, we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park for the family from Denver that comes once every five years. We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in. That doesn’t seem like a real balanced proposition. I guess it’s possible that the superfans look at that as a disadvantaging of the way they consume the park, but we’ve got to make sure that not only are we heeding the needs of our superfans, but we’re heeding the needs of everyone who travels from across the country one time every five years. We have a real high-class problem: We have much more demand than there is supply. What we will not bend on is giving somebody a less than stellar experience in the parks because we jammed too many people in there. If we’re going to have that foundational rule, you have to start balancing who you let in. … Our ticket prices and constraints we put on how often people can come and when they come is a direct reflection of demand. When is it too much? Demand will tell us when it’s too much.


----------



## Sandisw

RivShore said:


> From our Stock News thread comes this bit from Bob 2.0, they do have quite a dilemma with AP's.
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/disney-bob-chapek-d23-interview-1235216556/
> 
> 
> *You’re known as a guy who cuts costs and raises prices. You’ve raised the prices pretty stiffly [for some streaming plans] and the parks. And you’ve gotten some blowback from superfans. How much can you keep raising prices and does ill will from them create a problem for the brand?*
> 
> We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. But at the same time, we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park for the family from Denver that comes once every five years. We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in. That doesn’t seem like a real balanced proposition. I guess it’s possible that the superfans look at that as a disadvantaging of the way they consume the park, but we’ve got to make sure that not only are we heeding the needs of our superfans, but we’re heeding the needs of everyone who travels from across the country one time every five years. We have a real high-class problem: We have much more demand than there is supply. What we will not bend on is giving somebody a less than stellar experience in the parks because we jammed too many people in there. If we’re going to have that foundational rule, you have to start balancing who you let in. … Our ticket prices and constraints we put on how often people can come and when they come is a direct reflection of demand. When is it too much? Demand will tell us when it’s too much.



I know people aren’t happy with these kinds of statements but it does make sense.

Its why I hope they have someone who can find a way to come up with a product that works well for people who come a lot, like DVC, but don’t need a pass that is , for the most part, unlimited,

But, as long as people are going, they are going to hold off on any level of AP being for sale again.


----------



## RivShore

Sandisw said:


> Its why I hope they have someone who can find a way to come up with a product that works well for people who come a lot, like DVC, but don’t need a pass that is , for the most part, unlimited,


I was just thinking the same thing, they really need something inbetween for those few time a year visitors (or long once a year stays).


----------



## aka Charles

Sandisw said:


> I know people aren’t happy with these kinds of statements but it does make sense.
> 
> Its why I hope they have someone who can find a way to come up with a product that works well for people who come a lot, like DVC, but don’t need a pass that is , for the most part, unlimited,
> 
> But, as long as people are going, they are going to hold off on any level of AP being for sale again.



If we accept his narrative, it makes sense. 

But I have a hard time understanding how that family from Denver would have any problem getting into the parks when Disney’s own data shows actual park attendance is down 17%. 

It just seems to me that if too much demand was the actual reason, then a 17% drop in attendance would have them going all in on AP sales. 

Also, if they had any desire to provide a balanced AP product for DVC members and other guests that visit more than once a year, it would be simple for them to create an AP that is tied to resort stays, like so many have suggested. It would provide excellent flexibility for the guests, and guaranteed multiple level revenue stream for Disney. 

Just wishful thinking.


----------



## Sandisw

aka Charles said:


> If we accept his narrative, it makes sense.
> 
> But I have a hard time understanding how that family from Denver would have any problem getting into the parks when Disney’s own data shows actual park attendance is down 17%.
> 
> It just seems to me that if too much demand was the actual reason, then a 17% drop in attendance would have them going all in on AP sales.
> 
> Also, if they had any desire to provide a balanced AP product for DVC members and other guests that visit more than once a year, it would be simple for them to create an AP that is tied to resort stays, like so many have suggested. It would provide excellent flexibility for the guests, and guaranteed multiple level revenue stream for Disney.
> 
> Just wishful thinking.



I think they like that the park reservations system is allowing them to control attendance differently than before they had it,

So, it sounds like to me, the goal is to keep crowds at a lower level than before so the guest experience is not compromised in their eyes.

And, I believe that revenue is still up as prices are now higher than before, so they have what they see as system that allows them to do things they couldn’t before and that is to limit AP holders.

The statement at the end says it all.  When demand goes down, then they will know they need to change things.

Obviously, they will lose some guests along the way who won’t go back out of principle, but I doubt it would be enough to make a huge difference.

All it would take for many is to offer a very attractively priced AP to Earn back some of those who they lost with this strategy.


----------



## aka Charles

Sandisw said:


> I think they like that the park reservations system is allowing them to control attendance differently than before they had it,
> 
> So, it sounds like to me, the goal is to keep crowds at a lower level than before so the guest experience is not compromised in their eyes.
> 
> And, I believe that revenue is still up as prices are now higher than before, so they have what they see as system that allows them to do things they couldn’t before and that is to limit AP holders.
> 
> The statement at the end says it all.  When demand goes down, then they will know they need to change things.
> 
> Obviously, they will lose some guests along the way who won’t go back out of principle, but I doubt it would be enough to make a huge difference.
> 
> All it would take for many is to offer a very attractively priced AP to Earn back some of those who they lost with this strategy.



Yes, what you say is correct.

In his statement he says "But at the same time, *we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park* for the family from Denver that comes once every five years. We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and* that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in*."

He is saying that the reason that the family cannot get into the park is because there is not enough room in the park... in other words the park is at FULL capacity based solely on attendance. 
But that is not the case at all, by their own data.  

When you say "they like that the park reservations system is allowing them to control attendance differently than before they had it", you are correct, it is about control.
Now, we all love it when the lines are shorter.
For the guest, it means they get on the ride quicker.
For Disney, it means the guests get off the rides quicker, allowing more time for in park shopping and eating.

When you say "the goal is to keep crowds at a lower level than before", you are correct.
So when that family cannot get in, it is because Disney has lowered the level of access, not that demand maxed out the park capacity.

You are correct when you say "that revenue is still up as prices are now higher than before, so they have what they see as system that allows them to do things they couldn’t before..."
What they have done is lower the supply, which artificially increases the demand, thus allowing them to increase the prices.
So even if the family can get in, they have to pay a higher price.  They may have to change from once every 5 years to once every 7 or 8 years.

When you say "The statement at the end says it all.  When demand goes down, then they will know they need to change things." you are correct.
But in the context of his statement, the "demand" is purposely implied to be about attendance.
The actual "demand" is about the guests who are willing to pay more for less.
When the guests stop paying, "then they will know they need to change things."

So, just a long way of saying that everything he said was correct, *except *the narrative that the problem is that there is no room in the park.
Under the current system, if anyone cannot get into the park, that is solely because Disney is controlling the access and lowering the supply.

I fully understand it from a business perspective, but not from a customer service perspective.

.


----------



## aka Charles

Sorry Sandi, I went on a bit there.
None of that was directed at you.
Just a bit of a rant on his statement.


----------



## MinnieSueB

Boo!  Doesn't sound like APs are coming back any time soon.  I still need an AP for my DH - so frustrating.  They really need to make an exception for DVC.


----------



## ironz

"We *didn’t have a reservation system* and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and that *family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in."*

Um, so before the stupid reservation system, when did families not get let in, other than the occasional Christmas/NYE?   The reservation system is what is causing people to not get let in.  

Just my take as an out of state DVC AP holder who only renewed because I didn't want to lose the AP altogether, although we pretty much hate the idea of Genie+ and all the $$$ going into bob's pockets.


----------



## RivShore

aka Charles said:


> Disney’s own data shows actual park attendance is down 17%.


When did they say that?  I know they have said its down for all time highs just before the pandemic but don't remember seeing a number put to it.


----------



## tim494

ironz said:


> "We *didn’t have a reservation system* and we didn’t control the number of annual passes ... *the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them"*



sounds like the real target are the FL resident APs.  The APs are too cheap and make it easy for spontaneous drop-ins.  I don’t see that has a “traveling AP” problem because those traveling AP holders can’t just drop-in so the park is not “unlimited” to them.

His statement also supports the idea locals on average don’t spend as much as infrequent visitors.  If they did, he wouldn’t care about them coming all the time.

If he allows DeSantis to go through with changing the relationship with the State, does he gets to rewrite resident AP rules?


----------



## RivShore

aka Charles said:


> Also, if they had any desire to provide a balanced AP product for DVC members and other guests that visit more than once a year, it would be simple for them to create an AP that is tied to resort stays, like so many have suggested. It would provide excellent flexibility for the guests, and guaranteed multiple level revenue stream for Disney.


It is a great idea, hopefully someday...


----------



## Sandisw

aka Charles said:


> Yes, what you say is correct.
> 
> In his statement he says "But at the same time, *we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park* for the family from Denver that comes once every five years. We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them and* that family from Denver would get to the park and not be let in*."
> 
> He is saying that the reason that the family cannot get into the park is because there is not enough room in the park... in other words the park is at FULL capacity based solely on attendance.
> But that is not the case at all, by their own data.
> 
> When you say "they like that the park reservations system is allowing them to control attendance differently than before they had it", you are correct, it is about control.
> Now, we all love it when the lines are shorter.
> For the guest, it means they get on the ride quicker.
> For Disney, it means the guests get off the rides quicker, allowing more time for in park shopping and eating.
> 
> When you say "the goal is to keep crowds at a lower level than before", you are correct.
> So when that family cannot get in, it is because Disney has lowered the level of access, not that demand maxed out the park capacity.
> 
> You are correct when you say "that revenue is still up as prices are now higher than before, so they have what they see as system that allows them to do things they couldn’t before..."
> What they have done is lower the supply, which artificially increases the demand, thus allowing them to increase the prices.
> So even if the family can get in, they have to pay a higher price.  They may have to change from once every 5 years to once every 7 or 8 years.
> 
> When you say "The statement at the end says it all.  When demand goes down, then they will know they need to change things." you are correct.
> But in the context of his statement, the "demand" is purposely implied to be about attendance.
> The actual "demand" is about the guests who are willing to pay more for less.
> When the guests stop paying, "then they will know they need to change things."
> 
> So, just a long way of saying that everything he said was correct, *except *the narrative that the problem is that there is no room in the park.
> Under the current system, if anyone cannot get into the park, that is solely because Disney is controlling the access and lowering the supply.
> 
> I fully understand it from a business perspective, but not from a customer service perspective.
> 
> .



No worries! But remember they have redefined capacity based on new measures they want in place. 

What they allowed before isn’t what they appear to want now that the reservation system is in place. 

So, from their standpoint, the only way to ensure that family can get in is to limit the number of AP tickets out there at one time. 

As you said, they are controlling the capacity because they feel that having a lower number of spots in the park is in the best interest of customer satisfaction.


----------



## RivShore

aka Charles said:


> He is saying that the reason that the family cannot get into the park is because there is not enough room in the park... in other words the park is at FULL capacity based solely on attendance.
> But that is not the case at all, by their own data.


I would think he was referring to pre-reservation times when parks around the holidays would shut down.  I thought that only happened a few times a year though.


----------



## ironz

tim494 said:


> sounds like the real target are the FL resident APs.  The APs are too cheap and make it easy for spontaneous drop-ins.  I don’t see that has a “traveling AP” problem because those traveling AP holders can’t just drop-in so the park is not “unlimited” to them.
> 
> His statement also supports the idea locals on average don’t spend as much as infrequent visitors.  If they did, he wouldn’t care about them coming all the time.
> 
> If he allows DeSantis to go through with changing the relationship with the State, does he gets to rewrite resident AP rules?


Then they need to make a distinction between DVC/hotel using AP holders and the locals who drive in all the time, so I think we're in agreement on that. 
I feel like the reservation system, the limited hopping, and the relatively (in our experience) limited availability of Genie+ have really reduced what we can do in the parks, which means we don't want to go as often, which means we're not spending as much money there.   

I did some back of a napkin math on ILL revenue when it first came out, based on my own (albeit) limited observations, and there is $$$$$ rolling into Disney's coffers.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

RivShore said:


> When did they say that?  I know they have said its down for all time highs just before the pandemic but don't remember seeing a number put to it.



"Recent price hikes at Disney's theme parks have seen the company's profits surge despite a slump in visitors - leading many to accuse the parks of ripping off loyal customers in order to bolster their bottom line.

Since reopening in April of last year, the company has made a host of changes to its preeminent parks in Florida and California, nixing free perks and ramping up prices, causing the cost of a visit to a Disney resort to rise dramatically.

*Visitor numbers at the park have plunged by 17 per cent* - but the profit Disney makes on each guest has increased by 17 per cent in a year, helping turbocharge the firm's profits."
[Emphasis added.] (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-park-profits-jump-five-fold-2-2-billion.html, Daily Mail, pub. 28 August 2022, accessed 29 August 2022.)


----------



## lowlight

It's the lying and the greed together that bother me so much.  I can take a liar who isn't trying to fleece me, or a greedy person who is fleecing me and tells me exactly why, but I can't take the combination of someone who fleeces me and paints a story about why it's necessary that is offensively and patently untrue.  AP's have never, ever been a problem until Disney decided they weren't valuable enough.  The family from Denver story is basically a euphemistic middle finger to the "legacy" fans.  Disney was making a ton of money, regular visitors were having a great time, and then Disney decided "we want more money" and made up a laughably insulting reason to justify it.  This isn't a story of a down and out company that needed to up revenue to keep the lights on, this is pure greed and absolute disdain for their most loyal customers.  Disney is up there right now with companies that absolutely deserve to be in the trashbin of history like Nestle and Comcast.


----------



## RivShore

Ms Bibbidi said:


> "Recent price hikes at Disney's theme parks have seen the company's profits surge despite a slump in visitors - leading many to accuse the parks of ripping off loyal customers in order to bolster their bottom line.
> 
> Since reopening in April of last year, the company has made a host of changes to its preeminent parks in Florida and California, nixing free perks and ramping up prices, causing the cost of a visit to a Disney resort to rise dramatically.
> 
> *Visitor numbers at the park have plunged by 17 per cent* - but the profit Disney makes on each guest has increased by 17 per cent in a year, helping turbocharge the firm's profits."
> [Emphasis added.] (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-park-profits-jump-five-fold-2-2-billion.html, Daily Mail, pub. 28 August 2022, accessed 29 August 2022.)


Thanks.

I can't tell from that article what year they are comparing to though.  Can you?  A 17% drop from when is my question.


----------



## RivShore

ironz said:


> Then they need to make a distinction between DVC/hotel using AP holders and the locals who drive in all the time, so I think we're in agreement on that.
> I feel like the reservation system, the limited hopping, and the relatively (in our experience) limited availability of Genie+ have really reduced what we can do in the parks, which means we don't want to go as often, which means we're not spending as much money there.
> 
> I did some back of a napkin math on ILL revenue when it first came out, based on my own (albeit) limited observations, and there is $$$$$ rolling into Disney's coffers.


You can have a good time without the extras especially for us DVC'ers where it's not the end of the world if you don't get on a ride this trip.  We survived fine last week of Aug. without paying a penny extra for G+ or ILL.  The crowds were a bit less than the summer and it made for a much much better overall trip.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

RivShore said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I can't tell from that article what year they are comparing to though.  Can you?  A 17% drop from when is my question.


Just prior the “normal” attendance figures were 2019.


----------



## RoseGold

Sandisw said:


> Has nothing to do with IT, though. Showing ID along with proof of eligibility is part of the rules.
> 
> Take DVC out of it…it’s the requirement of an AP as well.


Right. Sure, you show your ID.

But my point is your MB just says DVC.  There are like six categories of DVC points, but only two current categories of member (blue or white).  And yet the MB, and their system in general, can't tell if you are white or blue.  It's how non-blue people got sorcerer passes last year.


----------



## Pinnochio

ironz said:


> Then they need to make a distinction between DVC/hotel AP holders and the locals who drive in all the time


exactly.....link the purchase of an AP to an actual resort stay.....level the playing field.....


----------



## Miffy

Pinnochio said:


> exactly.....link the purchase of an AP to an actual resort stay.....level the playing field.....


As an out-of-state non-DVC AP holder, I like this idea, since I always stay onsite at WDW, however, there are certainly a lot of local FL residents for whom being near WDW was a major motivation in their moving to FL.

Maybe these people don't spend as much as the mythical family from Denver, however, they do spend money in the parks. I'm sure lots of local residents eat at WDW restaurants, which I would certainly do if I lived nearby.

Also, companies do live and die from their reputations. To think otherwise is shortsighted.


----------



## Sandisw

RoseGold said:


> But my point is your MB just says DVC.  There are like six categories of DVC points, but only two current categories of member (blue or white).  And yet the MB, and their system in general, can't tell if you are white or blue.  It's how non-blue people got sorcerer passes last year.



Which is why we now have a digital card that shows status.  

Those that got the pass had to show the card..and the CMs took the white card as proof when they should not have.

So, one doesn’t need to have the MB show anything because you have a way to prove you are eligible.

Just don’t see what the issue is or why it’s a big deal to simply show your digital card and ID when asked.


----------



## Debbie Jean

Just renewed my Sorcerer's Pass... first day eligible to renew because who the heck knows what Disney has planned for AP's including renewals 

Took two CM's a total of 8 minutes...midday call, I was very pleased with the service!


----------



## RoseGold

What on earth is Dear Leader talking about???  He's saying the family from Denver couldn't get in because Disney didn't have reservations to protect them and all of those APs were stinking up the joint, so pre-Covid.  That would have to be something like Christmas, right?  I think that's the only time MK actually didn't let ticketed guests in pre-Covid.

And now, after Covid, hope that Denver family booked their reservations ahead of time because stuff fills up all the time, clearly those gross APs causing the issue.


----------



## Debbie Jean

But what I don’t understand with all this ridiculous talk about the “family from Denver” is that with the reservation system you select which group you belong to… AP are counted separately. If this is such a “problem” then limit AP reservations… not the sale of AP’s. 

I must be missing something.


----------



## lowlight

Debbie Jean said:


> But what I don’t understand with all this ridiculous talk about the “family from Denver” is that with the reservation system you select which group you belong to… AP are counted separately. If this is such a “problem” then limit AP reservations… not the sale of AP’s.
> 
> I must be missing something.


I believe that’s what got them sued. This is basically Disney creating a problem (reservations and limited spots) and selling the fix (higher ticket cost and limited AP to drive down attendance but increase profits).


----------



## ars13

If I create and wear a “Family from Denver” shirt will they sell me an AP? lol


----------



## RoseGold

ars13 said:


> If I create and wear a “Family from Denver” shirt will they sell me an AP? lol


Just wear what you are with pride: "Favorable Attendance Mix"


----------



## lowlight

RoseGold said:


> Just wear what you are with pride: "Favorable Attendance Mix"


Ok, that’s awesome.  Can we please make this a Dis thing?  Thousands of people wearing “Legacy fan” or “Unfavorable attendee” t shirts To Disney would be awesome.  We could have bearded Chapek on the back with dollar bill sign eyeballs.


----------



## Sandisw

Debbie Jean said:


> But what I don’t understand with all this ridiculous talk about the “family from Denver” is that with the reservation system you select which group you belong to… AP are counted separately. If this is such a “problem” then limit AP reservations… not the sale of AP’s.
> 
> I must be missing something.



First, I don’t think the story was meant to be taken as there was an actual family it happened to but the concept that before they has the reservations it was a possible because they didn’t do anything to track which guests were taking up the spots.

Second, when you sell an AP, you are in essence, selling a spot in the park. and you can’t sell more passes than what you are willing to accommodate each day.

So, right now, they don’t want any more AP holders than they have because they have enough guests paying for multi day tickets and they are reaching the capacity they want…and it’s obvious that reaching the pre pandemic attendance levels is not something they currently care about because they are making more money.

And, who knows…maybe the extra money is coming in because the guests visiting are the ones spending more and not the AP holders whom they say don’t spend enough.

So, to me, it sounds like they believe they have found a way to keep the parks a little less crowded which makes for a better experience but at the same time, continue to increase profits


----------



## Miffy

Sandisw said:


> First, I don’t think the story was meant to be taken as there was an actual family it happened to but the concept that before they has the reservations it was a possible because they didn’t do anything to track which guests were taking up the spots.
> 
> Second, when you sell an AP, you are in essence, selling a spot in the park. and you can’t sell more passes than what you are willing to accommodate each day.
> 
> So, right now, they don’t want any more AP holders than they have because they have enough guests paying for multi day tickets and they are reaching the capacity they want…and it’s obvious that reaching the pre pandemic attendance levels is not something they currently care about because they are making more money.
> 
> And, who knows…maybe the extra money is coming in because the guests visiting are the ones spending more and not the AP holders whom they say don’t spend enough.
> 
> So, to me, it sounds like they believe they have found a way to keep the parks a little less crowded which makes for a better experience but at the same time, continue to increase profits!


@Sandisw: I agree with your analysis except for one thing: I've been to WDW three times now since the reservation system was put in place and I've experienced impossible-to-navigate crowds in MK, Epcot, and DHS on more than one occasion. I've left out DAK because there are fewer attractions there and it's more understandable that even on an ordinary-attendance day there'd be a line for KS, for example.

So are the WDW parks less crowded? It doesn't feel that way to me, but that's just my own opinion and experience. I realize that's not everyone's experience. For reference, I've been in December 2021, March 2022, and May 2022.

And--btw, this is not at all related to your post--I'd like to point out that the "level the playing field" line that I keep hearing as a reason for G+ and the park reservation system seems like a fantasy to me. As usual, the people who know how to work these systems well are the ones with the most WDW knowledge--like people on the DIS--and, just like FP+, people get to WDW and have no idea how to use G+ and, worse, many don't realize they need a park reservation.

And, yes, the people who don't realize they need a park reservation should've done their research. After all, it's a very expensive enterprise to go to WDW, however, I'm merely pointing out that the playing field is still as unlevel as it's ever been. Those in the know (and those with the bucks) have a huge advantage over that family from Denver. And because of the financial factor, one might even think that the playing field has been made even more unlevel, since it favors those with more money to spend.

Rant over!

I'm just glad that I kept renewing my AP even though I didn't go to WDW for 15 months.

And thank you for all your informative posts, @Sandisw. I always enjoy your take on things.


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> First, I don’t think the story was meant to be taken as there was an actual family it happened to but the concept that before they has the reservations it was a possible because they didn’t do anything to track which guests were taking up the spots.
> 
> Second, when you sell an AP, you are in essence, selling a spot in the park. and you can’t sell more passes than what you are willing to accommodate each day.
> 
> So, right now, they don’t want any more AP holders than they have because they have enough guests paying for multi day tickets and they are reaching the capacity they want…and it’s obvious that reaching the pre pandemic attendance levels is not something they currently care about because they are making more money.
> 
> And, who knows…maybe the extra money is coming in because the guests visiting are the ones spending more and not the AP holders whom they say don’t spend enough.
> 
> So, to me, it sounds like they believe they have found a way to keep the parks a little less crowded which makes for a better experience but at the same time, continue to increase profits



What makes you think they feel the parks are less crowded? If anything I'd say they have found a way to cut services and pay less for staffing while still hitting their profit level.  If anything the parks "feel" more crowded than ever even though attendance is down.


----------



## DeeBee3

Miffy said:


> So are the WDW parks less crowded? It doesn't feel that way to me, but that's just my own opinion and experience. I realize that's not everyone's experience. For reference, I've been in December 2021, March 2022, and May 2022.



Agree with this 100%. The least crowded I saw was August 2021. Things were still building up and less people traveling. It was great. Can't say I've experienced that since.


----------



## Sandisw

Miffy said:


> @Sandisw: I agree with your analysis except for one thing: I've been to WDW three times now since the reservation system was put in place and I've experienced impossible-to-navigate crowds in MK, Epcot, and DHS on more than one occasion. I've left out DAK because there are fewer attractions there and it's more understandable that even on an ordinary-attendance day there'd be a line for KS, for example.
> 
> So are the WDW parks less crowded? It doesn't feel that way to me, but that's just my own opinion and experience. I realize that's not everyone's experience. For reference, I've been in December 2021, March 2022, and May 2022.
> 
> And--btw, this is not at all related to your post--I'd like to point out that the "level the playing field" line that I keep hearing as a reason for G+ and the park reservation system seems like a fantasy to me. As usual, the people who know how to work these systems well are the ones with the most WDW knowledge--like people on the DIS--and, just like FP+, people get to WDW and have no idea how to use G+ and, worse, many don't realize they need a park reservation.
> 
> And, yes, the people who don't realize they need a park reservation should've done their research. After all, it's a very expensive enterprise to go to WDW, however, I'm merely pointing out that the playing field is still as unlevel as it's ever been. Those in the know (and those with the bucks) have a huge advantage over that family from Denver. And because of the financial factor, one might even think that the playing field has been made even more unlevel, since it favors those with more money to spend.
> 
> Rant over!
> 
> I'm just glad that I kept renewing my AP even though I didn't go to WDW for 15 months.
> 
> And thank you for all your informative posts, @Sandisw. I always enjoy your take on things.



We do know, based on what was shared is that they are saying attendance is down, so somehow there are less people 

I haven’t run into higher crowds in all the times I have visited…been 8 times this last year..but we also don’t do a ton of rides either so have been strategic in not waiting too long.  

Walking around though, it has not seemed crazy when we were there.  DHS has always been crazy and it was when we visited but can’t say it was worse than before.  

It certainly is a unique approach in what they are doing and for those of us who have been through changes, we can see it.  But, for those new families?  They simply have no frame of reference and that is what they count on.

It does stink for those who are DVC who are really more than multi ticket guests but not the same as your FL resident, especially those local.

But, unfortunately, they have not yet come out with a product for us that works into their plan. And we all know here they could….make it a pass that works when you use your membership staying on site.  

My guess is they have not because they simply dont want to deal with the backlash that would create amongst other groups.


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> We do know, based on what was shared is that they are saying attendance is down, so somehow there are less people
> 
> I haven’t run into higher crowds in all the times I have visited…been 8 times this last year..but we also don’t do a ton of rides either so have been strategic in not waiting too long.
> 
> Walking around though, it has not seemed crazy when we were there.  DHS has always been crazy and it was when we visited but can’t say it was worse than before.
> 
> It certainly is a unique approach in what they are doing and for those of us who have been through changes, we can see it.  But, for those new families?  They simply have no frame of reference and that is what they count on.
> 
> It does stink for those who are DVC who are really more than multi ticket guests but not the same as your FL resident, especially those local.
> 
> But, unfortunately, they have not yet come out with a product for us that works into their plan. And we all know here they could….make it a pass that works when you use your membership staying on site.
> 
> My guess is they have not because they simply dont want to deal with the backlash that would create amongst other groups.



They already have a product for golden oaks and club 33 so its not going to anger anyone.  The real answer is chapek knows dvc is locked in and by eliminating ap he increases profits every time they visit by about 75 per person per park on a dvc stay without an ap.  It really is that simple.   Thanks for your $30k investment in us.  There's the door if you don't like it.


----------



## Debbie Jean

Sandisw said:


> First, I don’t think the story was meant to be taken as there was an actual family it happened to but the concept that before they has the reservations it was a possible because they didn’t do anything to track which guests were taking up the spots.
> 
> Second, when you sell an AP, you are in essence, selling a spot in the park. and you can’t sell more passes than what you are willing to accommodate each day.
> 
> So, right now, they don’t want any more AP holders than they have because they have enough guests paying for multi day tickets and they are reaching the capacity they want…and it’s obvious that reaching the pre pandemic attendance levels is not something they currently care about because they are making more money.
> 
> And, who knows…maybe the extra money is coming in because the guests visiting are the ones spending more and not the AP holders whom they say don’t spend enough.
> 
> So, to me, it sounds like they believe they have found a way to keep the parks a little less crowded which makes for a better experience but at the same time, continue to increase profits


Nope never thought the family was real but a rather clumsy disingenuous method to justify policy… which would have been more honestly expressed as “these people are a more lucrative market than AP holders… or for that matter DVC”, both of whom tend to be more knowledgeable and savvy about their visits… which I think they believe, rightly or not, translates to less money spent. 

When that policy ceases to drive profit, I think they figure us folks will still be there so they can always come back to that well to draw from.


----------



## Pinnochio

Debbie Jean said:


> When that policy ceases to drive profit, I think they'll figure us folks will still be there so they can always come back to that well to draw from.


But will we still be there?.....Time will tell....


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> They already have a product for golden oaks and club 33 so its not going to anger anyone.  The real answer is chapek knows dvc is locked in and by eliminating ap he increases profits every time they visit by about 75 per person per park on a dvc stay without an ap.  It really is that simple.   Thanks for your $30k investment in us.  There's the door if you don't like it.



You don’t think if they brought back the Sorcerer Pass for DVC and not FL residents, there would be no backlash?


----------



## aka Charles

I would like to take a moment to try to define a couple terms...

1. *Capacity      *- "The *Total Amount* or number of things or people *that something can hold*". (from the Cambridge Dictionary web site)
2. *Attendance *- "The *number of people who go* to an event, meeting, etc". (from the Cambridge Dictionary web site)

A park's *capacity *is the total amount of guests that the park can hold. That total is limited only by law or physical space, as in the fire marshal can close the entrance down, by law, when capacity is reached.  As far as I know, that has been the only situation that has stopped guests from entering in the past.  If the "family from Denver" could not get in, it was only because they showed up too late in the day, when the park was already full.  And it didn't matter what kind of ticket or AP that someone had, show up too late, they cannot get in.

What Disney is doing now is controlling the *attendance*, not the capacity.
If a park can hold 500,000 but Disney only lets in 400,000... they have limited the attendance, but the capacity did not change.

 (us, waiting to get in, lol)


----------



## Sandisw

Pinnochio said:


> But will we still be there?.....Time will tell....



Plenty will but all it will take is to offer a special deal to entice some on the fence.


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> You don’t think if they brought back the Sorcerer Pass for DVC and not FL residents, there would be no backlash?


No the products exist now for new in certain cases(uber rich) and renewal for any that have kept it up.  Use it as a dvc sales tool.  Want an ap? Buy DVC direct.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> No the products exist now for new in certain cases(uber rich) and renewal for any that have kept it up.  Use it as a dvc sales tool.  Want an ap? Buy DVC direct.



I still think it would cause an uproar with FL residents to offer something to DVC that used to be for FL residents and leave them with the restricted pixie pass. 

Can’t compare to the gold oaks and club 33 crowd getting them.


----------



## CarolMN

Sandisw said:


> You don’t think if they brought back the Sorcerer Pass for DVC and not FL residents, there would be no backlash?


Almost all DVC Members who want an AP would be satisfied with an AP valid only on the days they have an on-site reservation.  That product doesn't need to be exclusive to DVC.  My guess is that there would be quite a few non-Florida, non-DVC  Members who would be happy with that product, too.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Sandisw said:


> You don’t think if they brought back the Sorcerer Pass for DVC and not FL residents, there would be no backlash?



They distinctively categorize us differently anyway.


----------



## Sandisw

WilsonFlyer said:


> They distinctively categorize us differently anyway.



I know they do and we are not any more important to them than anyone else.  But, my point was more that even though they could offer DVC something if they wanted to, one of the reasons they probably would not is so that they don't need to worry or deal with potential backlash they would get.


----------



## lowlight

CarolMN said:


> Almost all DVC Members who want an AP would be satisfied with an AP valid only on the days they have an on-site reservation.  That product doesn't need to be exclusive to DVC.  My guess is that there would be quite a few non-Florida, non-DVC  Members who would be happy with that product, too.


Likely, but it’s a principle issue.  I don’t absolve Disney of being a terrible company because they gave me something that works for me while screwing over everyone else.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

IMHO there should be ONE annual pass:
     A full park hopper
          It includes water parks, photo pass
          It includes theme park parking and resort parking
          Same discounts we have now
          Tables in Wonderland
           No blockout dates,
           Park hopping is allowed after 11 a.m.
                 Park entry at any park after 11 a.m. without clicking into first park
           No tiers — just one level,
           No residency categories, or DVC membership blue card restrictions
           No monthly payment plan
           First come first serve — no separate buckets
           Up to 14 reservation holds
           Guaranteed renewable annually at new rates for 10 years
           $3,000 per year for everyone — not free up to age 3


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> IMHO there should be ONE annual pass:
> A full park hopper
> It includes water parks, photo pass
> It includes theme park parking and resort parking
> Same discounts we have now
> Tables in Wonderland
> No blockout dates,
> Park hopping is allowed after 11 a.m.
> Park entry at any park after 11 a.m. without clicking into first park
> No tiers — just one level,
> No residency categories, or DVC membership blue card restrictions
> No monthly payment plan
> First come first serve — no separate buckets
> Guaranteed renewable annually at new rates for 10 years
> $3,000 per year for everyone — not free up to age 3



Let’s I hope we can find a better compromise if going to one type with no qualifications.


----------



## RoseGold

Pretty sure that's the Golden Oaks/Club 33 pass, and it costs a lot more than 3K.


----------



## Nursemanit

CarolMN said:


> Almost all DVC Members who want an AP would be satisfied with an AP valid only on the days they have an on-site reservation.  That product doesn't need to be exclusive to DVC.  My guess is that there would be quite a few non-Florida, non-DVC  Members who would be happy with that product, too.


I have to agree - I could even go further and say that a blanket 20% discount to DVC members on tickets for the length of your DVC stay would be an awesome benefit that would benefit both the 100 point " go every 2 years" right up to the 1000 point go 3 x a year members. Most of us working members who have 1 week of vacation to spend in the parks did not benefit from an annual pass in the old system but would benefit from a discount.

I see from the business side that there is no real reason to offer annual passes that can be used 200 days a year for $800.


----------



## RivShore

Miffy said:


> So are the WDW parks less crowded? It doesn't feel that way to me, but that's just my own opinion and experience. I realize that's not everyone's experience. For reference, I've been in December 2021, March 2022, and May 2022.


Yes, thru most of the summer it has felt like spring break every day but I think that slowly began to change as some crowd eaters have come back on-line.  And the crowds in general were noticeably less the last few weeks.


----------



## Nursemanit

RivShore said:


> crowd eaters have come back on-line.


This is a great point - I am one of the ones who go to Muppets 3d, Tiki Room, Hall of Presidents, It's tough to be a bug every visit - It really does help crowds and provides some much-needed AC for me in Aug/Sept. 

I would love to see some broadway quality shows come to WDW - Lion King or Newsies would take hundreds out of the park for hours - Disney Springs needs more than just Cirque


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Nursemanit said:


> I see from the business side that there is no real reason to offer annual passes that can be used 200 days a year for $800.


I think the image of the Florida resident who is a local going 200 or 300 days a year is a myth.  I do not know anybody who does that.  Quite frankly, I think SandiSW spends more days in the park per year than I do.  The truth of it is the first year attendance is pretty high.  By the second year it is maybe half of that.  By the third year the local is more drawn to the parks by seasonal changes and events.  I got my annual pass at the beginning of March and I have not entered a park yet this year.  It has been a hot summer.


----------



## Nursemanit

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think the image of the Florida resident who is a local going 200 or 300 days a year is a myth.  I do not know anybody who does that.  Quite frankly, I think SandiSW spends more days in the park per year than I do.  The truth of it is the first year attendance is pretty high.  By the second year it is maybe half of that.  By the third year the local is more drawn to the parks by seasonal changes and events.  I got my annual pass at the beginning of March and I have not entered a park yet this year.  It has been a hot summer.


Every blogger on Youtube - LOL 

I have family in the area since before 1971 and they don't get annual passes or have any interest - they also want a Florida resident single day discount on light days as they won't go near the parks when they are crowded.


----------



## npatellye

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think the image of the Florida resident who is a local going 200 or 300 days a year is a myth.  I do not know anybody who does that.


I have friends who live in Winter Garden, ChampionsGate, Clermont, Celebration, and Kissimmee who go at least 1-2 times a week during the school year. When their kids have half days or days off, they go to the parks. If there’s a week with no half days or days off, they often go after school one day and one day on the weekend. They go at least 2-3 times a week during school breaks and the summer. And some of them grew up going as often when they were children themselves and now they take their own kids that often, even with park reservations. Heck, most of them also make it a point to go to the parks for anniversaries, birthdays, and any other reason. Two of them even had birthday parties for their kids there this year: they invited parents to bring their kids to join them for lunch and rides. They covered the cost of food but not park admission since everyone they invited had an AP of some sort. Maybe my perspective is skewed because the families I know in the area have at least 1 elementary school aged child, and they all have at least 1 other child between elementary school and middle school.


----------



## Sandisw

npatellye said:


> I have friends who live in Winter Garden, ChampionsGate, Clermont, Celebration, and Kissimmee who go at least 1-2 times a week during the school year. When their kids have half days or days off, they go to the parks. If there’s a week with no half days or days off, they often go after school one day and one day on the weekend. They go at least 2-3 times a week during school breaks and the summer. And some of them grew up going as often when they were children themselves and now they take their own kids that often, even with park reservations. Heck, most of them also make it a point to go to the parks for anniversaries, birthdays, and any other reason. Two of them even had birthday parties for their kids there this year: they invited parents to bring their kids to join them for lunch and rides. They covered the cost of food but not park admission since everyone they invited had an AP of some sort. Maybe my perspective is skewed because the families I know in the area have at least 1 elementary school aged child, and they all have at least 1 other child between elementary school and middle school.



I know people who also visit regularly who live within the area, or close to it.  So, just like DVC owners have a wide range of days per year we visit...I am typically there for 25 to 30 days a year, and most days do hit the park at least for a few hours...but sometimes, we have done resort only trips...I know plenty of DVC owners who don't need or use an AP.

I imagine it is the same for FL residents...some use it a lot and some don't use it that much at all, but the price compared to day tickets makes it a no brainer to keep an AP so that if you do get the urge to go, you can.

I think what we are learning is that the notion of multi day tickets and APs as the only two choices doesn't really work to meet everyone's needs.  If they don't want to do the AP's any longer then I agree, give us discounted tickets or come up with the onsite pass that really does fit DVC owners much better.


----------



## MalorieA

Sandisw said:


> I know people who also visit regularly who live within the area, or close to it.  So, just like DVC owners have a wide range of days per year we visit...I am typically there for 25 to 30 days a year, and most days do hit the park at least for a few hours...but sometimes, we have done resort only trips...I know plenty of DVC owners who don't need or use an AP.
> 
> I imagine it is the same for FL residents...some use it a lot and some don't use it that much at all, but the price compared to day tickets makes it a no brainer to keep an AP so that if you do get the urge to go, you can.
> 
> I think what we are learning is that the notion of multi day tickets and APs as the only two choices doesn't really work to meet everyone's needs.  If they don't want to do the AP's any longer then I agree, give us discounted tickets or come up with the onsite pass that really does fit DVC owners much better.


So is it Bill that should be trying to stand up for us? Or who do you think I should be writing to? Any input on that would be greatly appreciated. I can make a good case


----------



## Sandisw

MalorieA said:


> So is it Bill that should be trying to stand up for us? Or who do you think I should be writing to? Any input on that would be greatly appreciated. I can make a good case



DPEP is in charge of APs and not DVC.

So, that is who I would write to..Josh D’Amaro, as they make the decisions regarding sales of the AP.

That means no other division, including DVC has enough power to change things unless DPEP wants them changed. And it’s clear they, and the higher ups don’t want to sell APs.

Obviously it doesn’t hurt to email Bill but in the end, it’s not up to him and since DVC can’t sell them on their own, we are stuck.

Even though I have my AP, I have written a few times to DVC saying that I think they should be working harder to get us a discount in tickets as a temporary solution until APs are on sale again.

IMO, that has a better chance of happening since tickets are available!


----------



## MalorieA

Sandisw said:


> DPEP is in charge of APs and not DVC.
> 
> So, that is who I would write to..Josh D’Amaro, as they make the decisions regarding sales of the AP.
> 
> That means no other division, including DVC has enough power to change things unless DPEP wants them changed. And it’s clear they, and the higher ups don’t want to sell APs.
> 
> Obviously it doesn’t hurt to email Bill but in the end, it’s not up to him and since DVC can’t sell them on their own, we are stuck.
> 
> Even though I have my AP, I have written a few times to DVC saying that I think they should be working harder to get us a discount in tickets as a temporary solution until APs are on sale again.
> 
> IMO, that has a better chance of happening since tickets are available!


Thanks, you’re the best!


----------



## Miffy

Sandisw said:


> We do know, based on what was shared is that they are saying attendance is down, so somehow there are less people
> 
> I haven’t run into higher crowds in all the times I have visited…been 8 times this last year..but we also don’t do a ton of rides either so have been strategic in not waiting too long.
> 
> Walking around though, it has not seemed crazy when we were there.  DHS has always been crazy and it was when we visited but can’t say it was worse than before.
> 
> It certainly is a unique approach in what they are doing and for those of us who have been through changes, we can see it.  But, for those new families?  They simply have no frame of reference and that is what they count on.
> 
> It does stink for those who are DVC who are really more than multi ticket guests but not the same as your FL resident, especially those local.
> 
> But, unfortunately, they have not yet come out with a product for us that works into their plan. And we all know here they could….make it a pass that works when you use your membership staying on site.
> 
> My guess is they have not because they simply dont want to deal with the backlash that would create amongst other groups.


I guess we've been there at different times, @Sandisw, since it _has _seemed crazy to us while walking around--on more than one occasion. We actually fled Epcot after having lunch the last two times we were there since it was impossibly crowded.

BTW, I am not a DVC owner. Just to make that clear. I'm an out-of-state AP holder who always stays onsite.

And, to be clear, there are times of the year--like our upcoming December trip--where I expect it to be at least somewhat crowded-seeming, but I have yet to experience it feeling like there are a lower number of park guests since the park reservation system was put in place. In fact, it's felt like quite the opposite to me, that there are now more people at WDW than ever. I guess one of the reasons for this is that the parks haven't been fully staffed since reopening, and I wonder if they ever will be again since this new system seems to be to Disney's financial advantage.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think the image of the Florida resident who is a local going 200 or 300 days a year is a myth.  I do not know anybody who does that.  Quite frankly, I think SandiSW spends more days in the park per year than I do.  The truth of it is the first year attendance is pretty high.  By the second year it is maybe half of that.  By the third year the local is more drawn to the parks by seasonal changes and events.  I got my annual pass at the beginning of March and I have not entered a park yet this year.  It has been a hot summer.


I don’t think there is any set pattern for locals. 
My last AP was an Epcot after 4 pass, and it was primarily for F&W Festival. We did sprinkle in a few generic Epcot trips throughout the year. 
Regardless, we always spent lots of money. Sometimes on the booths, and often at one of the restaurants for dinner.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

MinnieSueB said:


> They really need to make an exception for DVC.


People keep saying this, but they really don’t, unfortunately.  Riviera and GFV are apparently selling like hotcakes despite AP’s being unavailable for 2.5 years.  Granted, I believe some are still buying on the false promise of being able to buy a Sorceror’s Pass eventually, but as long as they are selling DVC at a brisk clip they have no incentive to offer current blue card holders anything.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

CarolMN said:


> Almost all DVC Members who want an AP would be satisfied with an AP valid only on the days they have an on-site reservation.  That product doesn't need to be exclusive to DVC.  My guess is that there would be quite a few non-Florida, non-DVC  Members who would be happy with that product, too.


For the same reason that there are now very few to no resort perks currently, I don’t see them offering this.  As long as they are selling out their resorts they aren’t going to add resort perks.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Ms Bibbidi said:


> $3,000 per year for everyone — not free up to age 3


Careful, Chapek might hear you.


----------



## Sandisw

Miffy said:


> I guess we've been there at different times, @Sandisw, since it _has _seemed crazy to us while walking around--on more than one occasion. We actually fled Epcot after having lunch the last two times we were there since it was impossibly crowded.
> 
> BTW, I am not a DVC owner. Just to make that clear. I'm an out-of-state AP holder who always stays onsite.
> 
> And, to be clear, there are times of the year--like our upcoming December trip--where I expect it to be at least somewhat crowded-seeming, but I have yet to experience it feeling like there are a lower number of park guests since the park reservation system was put in place. In fact, it's felt like quite the opposite to me, that there are now more people at WDW than ever. I guess one of the reasons for this is that the parks haven't been fully staffed since reopening, and I wonder if they ever will be again since this new system seems to be to Disney's financial advantage.



With the college program back in gear and other things, hopefully staffing will return as well!


----------



## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> IMHO there should be ONE annual pass:
> A full park hopper
> It includes water parks, photo pass
> It includes theme park parking and resort parking
> Same discounts we have now
> Tables in Wonderland
> No blockout dates,
> Park hopping is allowed after 11 a.m.
> Park entry at any park after 11 a.m. without clicking into first park
> No tiers — just one level,
> No residency categories, or DVC membership blue card restrictions
> No monthly payment plan
> First come first serve — no separate buckets
> Up to 14 reservation holds
> Guaranteed renewable annually at new rates for 10 years
> $3,000 per year for everyone — not free up to age 3


@Ms Bibbidi, do you mean this? I can't tell, but it seems like you might. This would certainly limit the number of AP holders. They'd definitely lose me.

If you're being sarcastic, then you've low-balled the price. $5,000 is more like it. In fact, if they were really serious about limiting attendance, they could raise the price of a one-day pass to a flat $1,000 per person, regardless of age. That would definitely uncrowd the parks.


----------



## jo-jo

Miffy said:


> @Ms Bibbidi, do you mean this? I can't tell, but it seems like you might. This would certainly limit the number of AP holders. They'd definitely lose me.
> 
> If you're being sarcastic, then you've low-balled the price. $5,000 is more like it. In fact, if they were really serious about limiting attendance, they could raise the price of a one-day pass to a flat $1,000 per person, regardless of age. That would definitely uncrowd the parks.


What would happen to crowds if Disney went back to having hours to midnight and EMH until 2 am as normal, not a day here or there?

I remember 30 odd years ago, during the summer open until midnight with the two parades and the fireworks in between.


----------



## HHISand

I would be happy with a Pixie pass for DVC.  We never go on Saturday or holidays and rarely on Sundays because of the crowds.  We find something else to do on those days if we are there.


----------



## RivShore

Sandisw said:


> With the college program back in gear and other things, hopefully staffing will return as well!


As I mentioned earlier, I think staffing has really ramped up the last few weeks.  In addition to CP, I think more international workers are coming back.  Cases in point, no less than 7 employees in the MK baby center the first week of Sept.  Also multiple "can I help you's" while someone was already helping me at the WL desk.  Also, no delays in QS food orders and same with TS.


----------



## Brian Noble

This isn't that complicated, and BC told us why at the end of his answer (emphasis added):


> Our ticket prices and constraints we put on how often people can come [to the parks] and when they come is a direct reflection of demand. When is it too much? *Demand will tell us when it’s too much. *


Right now, they don't need to sell new APs--which are, effectively, a discount program for frequent guests. They have all the turnstile clicks they want with guests paying full freight, while still allowing current passholders to renew if they want and selling the odd weekday-only FL resident pass here and there. They don't need to discount admission any more than they have.

_If and when they need to_, they can let off the gas and resume some sort of bulk-attendance discount. People's memories for this sort of thing are short, especially when they need a little hit of that pixie dust.


----------



## CraigInPA

Sandisw said:


> DPEP is in charge of APs and not DVC.
> 
> So, that is who I would write to..Josh D’Amaro, as they make the decisions regarding sales of the AP.
> 
> That means no other division, including DVC has enough power to change things unless DPEP wants them changed. And it’s clear they, and the higher ups don’t want to sell APs.
> 
> Obviously it doesn’t hurt to email Bill but in the end, it’s not up to him and since DVC can’t sell them on their own, we are stuck.
> 
> Even though I have my AP, I have written a few times to DVC saying that I think they should be working harder to get us a discount in tickets as a temporary solution until APs are on sale again.
> 
> IMO, that has a better chance of happening since tickets are available!



Although, if Bill receives a lot of the same suggestion, he could advocate for that with Josh. 

If Josh receives a lot of the same suggestion, and Bill contacts him saying he's getting inundated with the idea, that may trigger it to be implemented.


----------



## Sandisw

CraigInPA said:


> Although, if Bill receives a lot of the same suggestion, he could advocate for that with Josh.
> 
> If Josh receives a lot of the same suggestion, and Bill contacts him saying he's getting inundated with the idea, that may trigger it to be implemented.



Thats why I said it doesn’t hurt to send to Bill as well.  I simply believe that if DVD could have gotten it done, it would be happening as its the biggest perk for DVC and selling points.

But, it still remains that APs are not within DVCs control to offer so if one wants to share a complaint it should go to the person who is in charge of the division who offers them.

Based on the statements from the CEO and CFO, they are certainly aware of all the current complaints for many guests, including DVC owners, about no sales but have stated they just don’t see the need to open sales for those types of passes right now.


----------



## RivShore

Brian Noble said:


> This isn't that complicated, and BC told us why at the end of his answer (emphasis added):
> 
> Right now, they don't need to sell new APs--which are, effectively, a discount program for frequent guests. They have all the turnstile clicks they want with guests paying full freight, while still allowing current passholders to renew if they want and selling the odd weekday-only FL resident pass here and there. They don't need to discount admission any more than they have.
> 
> _If and when they need to_, they can let off the gas and resume some sort of bulk-attendance discount. People's memories for this sort of thing are short, especially when they need a little hit of that pixie dust.


I have said the same many times, demand will dictate next steps.  As soon as they feel they have priced things to the point where demand is less than they want, adjustments and discounts will soon follow.  Amazing how the laws of economics apply even to pixie dust.


----------



## CalOilerGurl

HHISand said:


> I would be happy with a Pixie pass for DVC.  We never go on Saturday or holidays and rarely on Sundays because of the crowds.  We find something else to do on those days if we are there.



Us too! I am totally happy making Saturday and Sunday our resort days or DS - I would LOVE if they offered a Pixie pass for DVC. Free up the weekends for that big spending family from Colorado Bob!


----------



## kboo

ScubaCat said:


> Gentle reminder to please make an effort to NEVER give front line CM's any hassle or attitude over this. They're often under tremendous pressure for not the greatest wages. I realize it can be frustrating, but there are better channels to vent this and not direct it at a cashier who's just doing his or her job.


I was (one of) the people who complained/vented here about being asked to show ID at an in-park gift store. Yes, I am aware of the rules and did not take it out on the front line CM. At that same time, for years that rule had not been enforced, so I prefer not to bring difficult-to-replace items to the parks (i.e. driver's license, cash/credit cards). Just ended up not purchasing the small item (candy? something very small) that I was on the fence about anyway. Ultimately, it will probably just deter me from making impulse purchases when in the parks; that's probably not so bad for my budget anyway.


RivShore said:


> eeding the needs of our superfans, but we’re heeding the needs of everyone who travels from across the country one time every five years. We have a real high-class problem: We have much more demand than there is supply. What we will not bend on is giving somebody a less than stellar experience in the parks because we jammed too many people in there.





RivShore said:


> When did they say that?  I know they have said its down for all time highs just before the pandemic but don't remember seeing a number put to it.


Our last pre-shutdown trip was Xmas/NYE 2019 and if that had been our first or once-in-many years trip, I probably would not have come back for a long time... There *maybe* had been a level 1 closure in MK on 12/30, we were certainly jammed in there for the early-early NYE celebration, and when we left EPCOT around 8pm on 12/31 it was getting very very hard to walk out of WS. It was hard to go anywhere, it was impossible to get on any rides, and we were just there for the special fireworks, dance party in the hub, and dinner (ADR). While it was a TON of fun, and one of the most memorable experiences at WDW, we also knew what we were getting into and if it had been a "once in a lifetime" trip I probably wouldn't have wanted to come back.

(This was also the trip where we were up at 5am or earlier to get into HS early (in the rain) (with small kids) in order to try to get a BG for Rise of the Resistance. Remember those days?)


RivShore said:


> You can have a good time without the extras especially for us DVC'ers where it's not the end of the world if you don't get on a ride this trip.  We survived fine last week of Aug. without paying a penny extra for G+ or ILL.  The crowds were a bit less than the summer and it made for a much much better overall trip.





DeeBee3 said:


> Agree with this 100%. The least crowded I saw was August 2021. Things were still building up and less people traveling. It was great. Can't say I've experienced that since.


We have now had a trip with G+ (Xmas 2021) and without (late August 2022). Aug 2021 was Delta surge and pre-G+, right?

I don't mind the park pass reservations one bit, it actually makes it easier for our family because there's less complaining and everyone trying to advocate for last minute changes!  And G+ gives us the opportunity to start a little later than rope drop. Even over Christmas, if we went at opening or early opening, we could usually walk on to most rides, and be mostly "done" with MK by 11am. We used G+ on this last trip only for HS, and bought one ILL for Guardians because we wanted to ride 2x in a day. Also bought one ILL for RotR, but kids and aunties went standby around 10am and waited about 45 min. to ride so they rode 2x that day. Otherwise, all the other rides we did standby. I don't feel compelled to buy G+ every day, but feel like it does give us some flexibility.


HHISand said:


> I would be happy with a Pixie pass for DVC.  We never go on Saturday or holidays and rarely on Sundays because of the crowds.  We find something else to do on those days if we are there.


Our last trip ended with Labor Day weekend - and our last Epcot Day was Sunday - we took our time going in, rode the Nemo ride and Guardians 2x (BG + ILL) and noshed. It was really, really hot. I'm glad we had APs so we didn't feel like we were wasting our $ to pop in, ride 3 rides and eat. Both weekends it was somewhat crowded, but my overall comparisons to pre-COVID (we used to go at the same times of year):

Thanksgiving/Xmas pre covid felt like 5-10x the crowds over the holidays since Covid. Thanksgiving 2018 I remember days where it was wall to wall people in MK, where all we could do was shuffle. It was awful. 10-20% of those crowds still feels "crowded" in MK and HS but not like that. There were 6hr waits for FOP, 30-45 min waits for Small World... no thank you.

Late summer this year - we missed the Europeans who used to outnumber the Americans at that time of year. Both 2021 and 2022 we had incredible walk on experiences at FOP, Space, 25 min for 7DMT, Everest all around late morning on a weekday. This past trip, we didn't even come close to rope drop, and still had an easy time without G+. We went to MNSSHP and those were the biggest crowds we experienced. My kids would have preferred to do more rides (!!) but the lines were longer than our days at MK, and I'm glad we made the parade and fireworks a priority. I could totally get behind a pixie pass for WDW after this last trip.


----------



## Nursemanit

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> People keep saying this, but they really don’t, unfortunately.  Riviera and GFV are apparently selling like hotcakes despite AP’s being unavailable for 2.5 years.  Granted, I believe some are still buying on the false promise of being able to buy a Sorceror’s Pass eventually, but as long as they are selling DVC at a brisk clip they have no incentive to offer current blue card holders anything.


DVC is not "selling like hotcakes" the numbers are down 25% compared to pre pandemic sales.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Miffy said:


> @Ms Bibbidi, do you mean this? I can't tell, but it seems like you might. This would certainly limit the number of AP holders. They'd definitely lose me.
> 
> If you're being sarcastic, then you've low-balled the price. $5,000 is more like it. In fact, if they were really serious about limiting attendance, they could raise the price of a one-day pass to a flat $1,000 per person, regardless of age. That would definitely uncrowd the parks.


Actually, yes.  I meant it.  I think Chapek is still hard focused on "his truth" that passholders are less profitable than ticketed guests.  So, obviously, there is some number out there that would balance that per guest value in his eyes.  What I don't like is being "managed."  I am an adult and I should be the one to decide how often I go (or not) and when I go (or not).  Chapek spoke with some obvious falsity when he said:  

“_We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. But at the same time, we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park for the family from Denver that comes once every five years._ ”   (Bob Chapek, CEO The Walt Disney Company, Interview with The Hollywood Reporter 9-10-2-22.)​
Love equally?!?  "Come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground"?  How insulting!!!  Remember, he was calling APs "undesirable mix" and "Legacy" fans.  Now he is trying "Superfans" but it isn't the label.  It is the placement of passholders as below equal guests with other guests.  I intensely dislike being managed in this way and in being presumed to be less valuable just because I accepted an offer of a package of discounted gate admission price.  They made the offer.  Then, to top that, behind the scenes, they tried to short-shrift the park reservation availability without full legal disclosures (so says the CA lawsuit.)  Disney is a for-profit business.  They are indeed driven by demand and price.  Price will impact demand.  Price will impact their DVC market.  Price will be the point at which Mr. Chapek decides he can value all guests the same.  He doesn't need to cater to me.  He doesn't need to disadvantage me from the contract he appeared to sell me.  He needs to decide the fair price and I, along with about 500,000 other passholders at WDW, will decide if it is worth it to me.  Above board.  Arms length transaction.  But, ditch the shifty business practices and get it all above board.  If Chapek decides that price is $2,500 or $5,000 then so be it.  The next decision is mine.


----------



## heynowirv

Sandisw said:


> I agree.  I have always had to show proof of my DVC for food and dining discounts.  Most of the time, ID was only for shopping...but they have asked it at a few places for dining.  However, since they went digital, I have not had to show my ID as much as before.


We were there for a quick 3 night stay end of August and only once was ask to show our digital wallet to show our credentials.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Well, dare I say that at $3k/adult, you're going to run a lot of DVC'ers away. And with nobody to replace them with. That number for a family of 4 is way above the line for the average DVC member and their families. I can't prove it because I don't have the data to support it, but I'd be willing to bet a stupid amount of money on it.


----------



## heynowirv

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Actually, yes.  I meant it.  I think Chapek is still hard focused on "his truth" that passholders are less profitable than ticketed guests.  So, obviously, there is some number out there that would balance that per guest value in his eyes.  What I don't like is being "managed."  I am an adult and I should be the one to decide how often I go (or not) and when I go (or not).  Chapek spoke with some obvious falsity when he said:
> 
> “_We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. But at the same time, we’ve got to make sure that there’s room in the park for the family from Denver that comes once every five years._ ”   (Bob Chapek, CEO The Walt Disney Company, Interview with The Hollywood Reporter 9-10-2-22.)​
> Love equally?!?  "Come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground"?  How insulting!!!  Remember, he was calling APs "undesirable mix" and "Legacy" fans.  Now he is trying "Superfans" but it isn't the label.  It is the placement of passholders as below equal guests with other guests.  I intensely dislike being managed in this way and in being presumed to be less valuable just because I accepted an offer of a package of discounted gate admission price.  They made the offer.  Then, to top that, behind the scenes, they tried to short-shrift the park reservation availability without full legal disclosures (so says the CA lawsuit.)  Disney is a for-profit business.  They are indeed driven by demand and price.  Price will impact demand.  Price will impact their DVC market.  Price will be the point at which Mr. Chapek decides he can value all guests the same.  He doesn't need to cater to me.  He doesn't need to disadvantage me from the contract he appeared to sell me.  He needs to decide the fair price and I, along with about 500,000 other passholders at WDW, will decide if it is worth it to me.  Above board.  Arms length transaction.  But, ditch the shifty business practices and get it all above board.  If Chapek decides that price is $2,500 or $5,000 then so be it.  The next decision is mine.


I agree and think it will take a snow blizzard in Orlando before they open AP's to people who don't have them yet.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

heynowirv said:


> I agree and think it will take a snow blizzard in Orlando before they open AP's to people who don't have them yet.



Irony is how is that fair to people that don't have them and need them? Point being that those of us that do have them, are holding on even tighter knowing they aren't available. If they are even remotely implying that they are waiting for the pool to open up from those who don't renew, we all know where that's headed. And they do too, furthering your point..


----------



## heynowirv

WilsonFlyer said:


> Irony is how is that fair to people that don't have them and need them? Point being that those of us that do have them, are holding on even tighter knowing they aren't available. If they are even remotely implying that they are waiting for the pool to open up from those who don't renew, we all know where that's headed. And they do too, furthering your point..


I believe everything I said. We still have about 15 days left on our NE tickets that we bought in Feb 2011 when they announced they will no longer selling them. 3 years or so from now if AP's are still unavailable then so are our park days.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> Well, dare I say that at $3k/adult, you're going to run a lot of DVC'ers away. And with nobody to replace them with. That number for a family of 4 is way above the line for the average DVC member and their families. I can't prove it because I don't have the data to support it, but I'd be willing to bet a stupid amount of money on it.


$3k per annual pass -- adult or child.  Yes.  I agree.  It would drive a lot of people away from buying annual passes.  That is where, if Disney offers something, we, as consumers, have to make a decision.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

heynowirv said:


> I agree and think it will take a snow blizzard in Orlando before they open AP's to people who don't have them yet.


Looks that way.


----------



## RivShore

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Looks that way.


Or perhaps a decently deep recession?


----------



## heynowirv

RivShore said:


> Or perhaps a decently deep recession?


I prefer the blizzard


----------



## cm8

I secretly think that some of you would rather they raise the prices to price out all the ones who currently have them because they are out of your reach. I am blessed to have a very large disposable income so these prices don’t hurt yet and it’s 4 of us, but I will most certainly not renew if they raise them to where we are paying between $3k and $5k for AP’s. 

We currently have Incredipass with all the options($16xx.. x’s 4 with taxes)! Even then, that was nothing to sneeze at! I’d be dang gone if I were to pay $5k x 4 for AP’s. I’d still use my DVC as accommodations how it’s intended and visit other places. WDW would become my Legacy place to visit!


----------



## cm8

heynowirv said:


> I prefer the blizzard


Me two? Just not when I’m down there this winter!


----------



## Sparky984

WilsonFlyer said:


> Well, dare I say that at $3k/adult, you're going to run a lot of DVC'ers away. And with nobody to replace them with. That number for a family of 4 is way above the line for the average DVC member and their families. I can't prove it because I don't have the data to support it, but I'd be willing to bet a stupid amount of money on it.


3k for an AP makes no sense if single day passes stay where they are. 

APs have to make sense for Disney (guaranteed income and the likelihood of more trips for lodging, food/beverage, etc) AND the consumer (discounted rates). We can complain all we want about the current rates, they are clearly market accepting. I think $3,000 per AP is well beyond that.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Sparky984 said:


> 3k for an AP makes no sense if single day passes stay where they are.
> 
> APs have to make sense for Disney (guaranteed income and the likelihood of more trips for lodging, food/beverage, etc) AND the consumer (discounted rates). We can complain all we want about the current rates, they are clearly market accepting. I think $3,000 per AP is well beyond that.



WAY beyond that. Apparently, lawyers think in numbers relative to them and forget about the rest of us. 

Personally, I think they're already in forbidden territory with incredi-expensive.


----------



## RivShore

heynowirv said:


> I prefer the blizzard


LOL - Agreed!


----------



## greeneyedchick

RivShore said:


> It is a great idea, hopefully someday...


It's a nice thought for the customer but why would they when they know that you will pay full price for tickets if forced to? If you're DVC, then you have already committed to coming to FL or renting your points to someone who will attend the parks. There's no reason to give you a discount (except to make you feel like Disney cares about your business).


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> Irony is how is that fair to people that don't have them and need them? Point being that those of us that do have them, are holding on even tighter knowing they aren't available. If they are even remotely implying that they are waiting for the pool to open up from those who don't renew, we all know where that's headed. And they do too, furthering your point..


That's the catch 22.  Disney hoped we would not notice and the non-renewal rate would remain consistent with past history.  But, people caught on and now there is a huge FOMO preventing non-renewals.  It has nothing to do with fairness.  Disney is a business.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

greeneyedchick said:


> It's a nice thought for the customer but why would they when they know that you will pay full price for tickets if forced to? If you're DVC, then you have already committed to coming to FL or renting your points to someone who will attend the parks. There's no reason to give you a discount (except to make you feel like Disney cares about your business).



See? Here's the thing. I think that line of thinking is invalid. But I think it happens at a certain point level. What I mean is that it probably doesn't matter to the family that bought one contract at 160 points and comes once a year. But somewhere up the food chain with number of points owned v. number of days visited per year lies a pain threshold. Now that pain threshold certainly isn't the same for everyone, but it exists somewhere for _most_ people. 

I won't pay for day tickets to use up the number of points I have per year. Had I known that losing APs was even remotely a possibility (NOT talking about the DVC perk of discounts here necessarily), I would have NEVER purchased the number of points we own. I suspect there are a lot of people that feel exactly the same way, and will do something about it besides buying day tickets if something doesn't give. And pretty darn quickly I suspect as well.


----------



## lowlight

WilsonFlyer said:


> WAY beyond that. Apparently, lawyers think in numbers relative to them and forget about the rest of us.
> 
> Personally, I think they're already in forbidden territory with incredi-expensive.


While I don’t agree with her price, as that would result in me not getting them, I agree with her principle.  Disney needs to stop it with using fine print to take value away from AP’s (blackouts, reservation limits, etc), figure out a price that makes sense, and let the free market decide. His attitude towards me as a customer is making me hate Disney as a company, and that’s not a tenable relationship.


----------



## greeneyedchick

jo-jo said:


> What would happen to crowds if Disney went back to having hours to midnight and EMH until 2 am as normal, not a day here or there?
> 
> I remember 30 odd years ago, during the summer open until midnight with the two parades and the fireworks in between.


It would make a huge difference and I would probably go again. I hate the heat and the son. My family is a bunch of night people. We'd love to get to the park late and stay until 2am.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sparky984 said:


> 3k for an AP makes no sense if single day passes stay where they are.
> 
> APs have to make sense for Disney (guaranteed income and the likelihood of more trips for lodging, food/beverage, etc) AND the consumer (discounted rates). We can complain all we want about the current rates, they are clearly market accepting. I think $3,000 per AP is well beyond that.


Single day passes at $150/day.  So 20 days is a break even for gate alone.  Added value for parking, discounts etc.  Chapek’s is already focused on APs being too good a value and reduces the parks to being a personal playground.  His language was significant!  He needs to be aggressive in asserting that WDW is a world class destination; not a personal playground.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Single day passes at $150/day.  So 20 days is a break even for gate alone.  Added value for parking, discounts etc.  Chapek’s is already focused on APs being too good a value and reduces the parks to being a personal playground.  His language was significant!  He needs to be aggressive in asserting that WDW is a world class destination; not a personal playground.



Your analogy doesn't take multi-day discounts into account and most anyone traveling that number of days per year would certainly be doing multi-day trips.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

cm8 said:


> I secretly think that some of you would rather they raise the prices to price out all the ones who currently have them because they are out of your reach.


Not really a secret thought if you posted it.  But I get it. 

 Anyway, I do have annual passes.  (So they are not out of my reach at current prices or at $3k or $5k.)  But it is a different transaction, so there would be a decision to make.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> Your analogy doesn't take multi-day discounts into account and most anyone traveling that number of days per year would certainly be doing multi-day trips.


True.  But a post including many factors gets unreadable.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms Bibbidi said:


> True.  But a post including many factors gets unreadable.


As long as we can agree that 20 days to break even on a $3k AP is *way* off the mark. I've seen you make plenty of _long unreadable_ posts before.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> As long as we can agree that 20 days to break even on a $3k AP is *way* off the mark. I've seen you make plenty of _long unreadable_ posts before.


We do not have to agree.  Twenty days to break even is definitely not unreasonable in my book.  Locals often do a day at a time; not multi-day trips.

Yes.  I have posted long posts.  Usually they were packed with significant new research.  Nobody is required to read any post here.


----------



## RoseGold

I renewed my AP!  Say hi if you see me in my Unfavorable Mix shirt.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

RoseGold said:


> I renewed my AP!  Say hi if you see me in my Unfavorable Mix shirt.


You got an unfavorable mix shirt!  I am so jealous!


----------



## Sandisw

cm8 said:


> I secretly think that some of you would rather they raise the prices to price out all the ones who currently have them because they are out of your reach. I am blessed to have a very large disposable income so these prices don’t hurt yet and it’s 4 of us, but I will most certainly not renew if they raise them to where we are paying between $3k and $5k for AP’s.
> 
> We currently have Incredipass with all the options($16xx.. x’s 4 with taxes)! Even then, that was nothing to sneeze at! I’d be dang gone if I were to pay $5k x 4 for AP’s. I’d still use my DVC as accommodations how it’s intended and visit other places. WDW would become my Legacy place to visit!



I think that something like a pass as described above would be more attractive to the FL resident than anyone other type of guest because things like parking at theme parks and resorts do not apply to DVC at all and cash guests only have resort parking fees if they have a car.

What would ideal..as so many of us have said is to have just three types of products..a yearly ticket that is only valid with onsite stays…a typical AP as exists now for FL residents and then your multi day tickets.

The bigger piece is that depending on who you are and your needs, you are going to see it differently.

So, for someone who is local and knows they will get at least double the break even days, even at $3k it would be doable,

For those who are DVC, a pass to break even at 20 days isn’t going to be popular because plans can change..

If the goal is to have a product that is exclusive and limited, then sky’s the limit.

I think that no matter what course of action they take moving forward, some will be happy and some will not.


----------



## TeamRiley

If they totally eliminated APs and Local Passes I would be OK with it.


----------



## Sandisw

TeamRiley said:


> If they totally eliminated APs and Local Passes I would be OK with it.



I honestly think what we will see  is multi day passes only with special discounts and deals along the way when they are needed.

While I love my AP and would hate to lose it, if they offered a 20% discount for DVC owners in place of Sorcerer Pass I could work with that. 

Give FL residents are larger discount or make it seasonal in nature.


----------



## TeamRiley

I don't think they need to cater to locals any more.  They should get rid of any local benefits, then let prices stabilize, and perhaps not go up as much. With so much demand, there is no reason to cater to locals except for political gains.


----------



## IceSkatingPrincess

I wouldn't be upset with a pass that only was valid during onsite stays. We have sorcerer APs right now (and intend to keep renewing), but we only stay onsite anyway, so that would totally work for us. I know for a lot of folks though, it would be very disappointing. Either way, I think it will be quite a while before we see APs come back on sale, and I think when they do they will see a significant price hike (along with increased restrictions).


----------



## TraderStitch

IceSkatingPrincess said:


> I wouldn't be upset with a pass that only was valid during onsite stays. We have sorcerer APs right now (and intend to keep renewing), but we only stay onsite anyway, so that would totally work for us. I know for a lot of folks though, it would be very disappointing. Either way, I think it will be quite a while before we see APs come back on sale, and I think when they do they will see a significant price hike (along with increased restrictions).


Hopefully this is something they are working on.  Could care less about going to the parks outside of when I'm not staying there onsite.  If they sold a pass for DVC owners at $500 to cover whenever you are there (up to 12 days a year), w/ holiday black outs (July 4, Thanksgiving and Christmas) ... I'd be completely down for that.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sandisw said:


> I honestly think what we will see  is multi day passes only with special discounts and deals along the way when they are needed.
> 
> While I love my AP and would hate to lose it, if they offered a 20% discount for DVC owners in place of Sorcerer Pass I could work with that.
> 
> Give FL residents are larger discount or make it seasonal in nature.


I do not see Disney just relying on multi-day tickets.  Nor do I see them doing DVC or on-site only gate entry deals as a main source of bulk gate entry.  They have already sold DVC timeshares and they are already in contracts with 15 other on-site hotels.  They still cannot fill the parks with solely resort guests.  APs work for them.  But they did a hard cap on the number distributed.  So new sales are not going to happen until they replenish the inventory.  That is what is working for them to get their desirable mix.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

TraderStitch said:


> Hopefully this is something they are working on.  Could care less about going to the parks outside of when I'm not staying there onsite.  If they sold a pass for DVC owners at $500 to cover whenever you are there (up to 12 days a year), w/ holiday black outs (July 4, Thanksgiving and Christmas) ... I'd be completely down for that.



You just described three major holidays when families with kids go when they are out of school. You can't put blackouts on an already heavy restriction like staying on-property IMO. I also don't think you can cap a number of days, though you could certainly sell varying levels of it based on number of days.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

TeamRiley said:


> I don't think they need to cater to locals any more.  They should get rid of any local benefits, then let prices stabilize, and perhaps not go up as much. With so much demand, there is no reason to cater to locals except for political gains.


They do not cater to locals.  If there is a requirement to offset social density impacts and social interruptions from their land use planning permit approvals such a requirement would not be catering to locals or for political gain.  It would be mitigating environmental impacts of their own land use development.


----------



## Sandisw

WilsonFlyer said:


> You just described three major holidays when families with kids go when they are out of school. You can't put blackouts on an already heavy restriction like staying on-property IMO. I also don't think you can cap a number of days, though you could certainly sell varying levels of it based on number of days.



They couldn’t call it an AP because people have a notion of what they are but could sell, as you say a yearly pass that has X days. 

For example, a 30 day pass good for one year. I would even still pay the same thing I pay for a Sorcerer Pass for that!


----------



## TraderStitch

WilsonFlyer said:


> You just described three major holidays when families with kids go when they are out of school. You can't put blackouts on an already heavy restriction like staying on-property IMO. I also don't think you can cap a number of days, though you could certainly sell varying levels of it based on number of days.



Something is better than nothing.  Doesn't need to called an AP, besides just because specific holidays are blacked out doesn't mean you couldn't go on the days around it.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Sandisw said:


> They couldn’t call it an AP because people have a notion of what they are but could sell, as you say a yearly pass that has X days.
> 
> For example, a 30 day pass good for one year. I would even still pay the same thing I pay for a Sorcerer Pass for that!



We discussed this in my thread about this very thing a few months ago. But we're back to that points v. days thing I brought up a few posts back. 30 sounds fine to you. I suspect your points hold some bounds that keep you, for all practical purposes; under 30 days per year. But what about the family that has enough points to go 40 days per year? Drawing the line with staying on property should be constraint enough. That ties a lot of money up in the stay. It needs to be essentially an incredi-theft pass tied stringently to on-site stays. In my opinion.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sandisw said:


> They couldn’t call it an AP because people have a notion of what they are but could sell, as you say a yearly pass that has X days.
> 
> For example, a 30 day pass good for one year. I would even still pay the same thing I pay for a Sorcerer Pass for that!


Would you pay $2,550 for that?  That is only $85 per day and holidays that are now $224 per day ticketed -park hopper are not blocked out.  So about 50% to 65% discount?  I am just talking compare how often you go use the parks as your personal playground and how much discount off regular park hopper prices.  You said 20% but see, that is not enough to get to the pricing you really want to use.  

There needs to be a significantly higher number of days to get to the break even point comparing to one day park hoppers.  Do not just compare to 5 to 10 day multi tickets because those are already bulk ticket discounts.  If you want to talk discounts, do it from standard park hoppers.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

TraderStitch said:


> Something is better than nothing.  Doesn't need to called an AP, besides just because specific holidays are blacked out doesn't mean you couldn't go on the days around it.


The hard blackouts are generally more than a few days.  Look at Disneyland where they block the whole summer or all of the Christmas/New Year’s holiday.  Does the fact that I buy an AP make me not want to have occasional holidays celebrated at the park.?  No.  It means right now I buy tickets for those blocked dates.  The price of the AP is not necessarily my whole gate admissions budget.  For some it is perhaps.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> We discussed this in my thread about this very thing a few months ago. But we're back to that points v. days thing I brought up a few posts back. 30 sounds fine to you. I suspect your points hold some bounds that keep you, for all practical purposes; under 30 days per year. But what about the family that has enough points to go 40 days per year? Drawing the line with staying on property should be constraint enough. That ties a lot of money up in the stay. It needs to be essentially an incredi-theft pass tied stringently to on-site stays. In my opinion.


Incredi-theft!  Brilliant!  Very funny!  Prizes to Wilson Flyer.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Even if every DVC room was occupied, every Disney resort room and the 15 good neighbor hotels, it does not bring them to their current attendance capacity.  They do also need off-site guests and regular annual passes.


----------



## jo-jo

Ms Bibbidi said:


> They do not cater to locals.  If there is a requirement to offset social density impacts and social interruptions from their land use planning permit approvals such a requirement would not be catering to locals or for political gain.  It would be mitigating environmental impacts of their own land use development.


I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying.   But if its locals get a discount due to traffic and issues like that,  why do people that live  hours away still get that discount?


Ms Bibbidi said:


> Even if every DVC room was occupied, every Disney resort room and the 15 good neighbor hotels, it does not bring them to their current attendance capacity.  They do also need off-site guests and regular annual passes.


I was just wondering that .    I have no idea at all if you did DVC, resort rooms, etc by 3 what that number would be.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Even if every DVC room was occupied, every Disney resort room and the 15 good neighbor hotels, it does not bring them to their current attendance capacity.  They do also need off-site guests and regular annual passes.



My proposal was always only a remedy by design to be exclusive to on-site guest stays. That doesn't preclude nor deny making other offerings available.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Even if every DVC room was occupied, every Disney resort room and the 15 good neighbor hotels, it does not bring them to their current attendance capacity.  They do also need off-site guests and regular annual passes.



You may want to take a look at that thread if you haven't already, though I suspect you have. I'll get the link for you if you need it. It brought up some interesting discussions.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> You may want to take a look at that thread if you haven't already, though I suspect you have. I'll get the link for you if you need it. It brought up some interesting discussions.


Thank you.  I will look for it.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Jo-jo, 
Last I read was about 39,000 rooms for Disney.  I did look at the other hotels but it is difficult to get accurate room info and who knows how many guests are Disney guests.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Here ya go. I Actually thought you had posted in that thread but maybe not.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/resort-only-major-gates-ap-would-you-buy.3872932/


----------



## BillPA

Disney on site hotels have 23,052 rooms
DVC on site has 4,985
This does not count Swan and Dolphin

https://www.couponingtodisney.com/how-many-resort-rooms-are-at-disney-world/


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

jo-jo said:


> I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying.   But if its locals get a discount due to traffic and issues like that,  why do people that live  hours away still get that discount?
> 
> I was just wondering that .    I have no idea at all if you did DVC, resort rooms, etc by 3 what that number would be.


Attendance at WDW was about 58 million in 2019.  So, use that number.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> Here ya go. I Actually thought you had posted in that thread but maybe not.
> 
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/resort-only-major-gates-ap-would-you-buy.3872932/


Yes.  4th page.


----------



## Miffy

I'm still thinking about that $3K price tag, @Ms Bibbidi. Perhaps it seems reasonable to you because you could afford it, but for me that would be the end of getting an AP and definitely the end of frequent WDW trips.

I recently paid $1,175 (and change) to renew my Platinum, which is now an Incredi. If that had been $3K instead of $1,175, it would have been 2.5x as much.

I take 2 (sometimes, rarely 3) trips a year and have maybe 16 park days total. Right now that comes out to ~$73 per day. 

I just checked UT. A 9-day hopper is approx $673. Double that-say I spend 18 park days a year, not 16--and it's $1,346 in park tickets. That's $171 more than I spent on my AP renewal. So I've theoretically saved $171, assuming I do spend 18 park days a year.

And maybe I'm saving another $50 in merch--that's probably an exaggeration--and $125 (also probably overstated) in food. Now I'm ahead a whopping $296.

It's not like I'm saving a fortune.

But at $3,000 for an AP, I would be losing $1,654 right off the top, assuming park admission stays the same. I cannot believe they're going to start charging $200/day for a multi-day trip, although of course they can do anything they want. So if they did start charging that, buying a $3K AP would save me $600 in park admission.

But I would never buy that, so I would be saving the entire cost of a WDW vacation. And a very very bad taste about WDW greed would be left in my former Disney-loving mouth.

I'm already unamused by how much the prices at the resorts have gone up while there's all but no maid service. Last December my sister and I had a the-pandemic's-over (yet it wasn't) splurge and spent approx $700/night at AKL and had to BEG for someone to bring us towels. We took out our own trash and had to avoid tripping over all the trash that was piled up by guests in the hallways. Our room was serviced exactly once during our stay. For $700/night. This was not a DVC stay. This was a resort hotel room. Cash. I do not own DVC.

OK, that's enough. I just get concerned when I see posts like the $3K per AP post, because I vividly remember seeing all those "they have to start charging for FP+" posts and then it happened. Those upcharges aren't killing my WDW vacation, because I'm not coming with a family and also we've downgraded where we stay to make up for the G+ and ILL$ money we spend.

But is someone from Disney reading these boards? Taking our suggestions? Seeing what the climate's like? Hey, gee, I read this thread where someone said how about just charging $3K for an AP! What a great idea. Let's do that.

--the end--


----------



## ScubaCat

BillPA said:


> Disney on site hotels have 23,052 rooms
> DVC on site has 4,985
> This does not count Swan and Dolphin
> 
> https://www.couponingtodisney.com/how-many-resort-rooms-are-at-disney-world/



It's dropped quite a bit since they've converted many hotel rooms to DVC.  Also All Star Music has converted a bunch of rooms to family suites, each one of which used to be two regular rooms.


----------



## RivShore

TeamRiley said:


> I don't think they need to cater to locals any more.  They should get rid of any local benefits, then let prices stabilize, and perhaps not go up as much. With so much demand, there is no reason to cater to locals except for political gains.


You are assuming demand will remain this high forever?  Once revenge travel slows and the recession hits, demand will slow and they will be happy to have those locals back.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Miffy, first I want to say, it is not my intention to hurt you or your feelings -- or anybody here.  I am not a Disney insider and I never speak to anybody that is -- that I know of -- although I have wondered about a couple of posters on Disboards. 

But, when comparing, to get a true comparison of prices and how much discount the annual passes give, you just look at standard, one-day park hopper tickets. 
Annual passes are nothing more than bundled discounts for gate admission with hopper, parking, discounts on merch and food etc. 
Multi-day tickets are also nothing more than bundle gate admission with hopper -- without parking, discounts on merch and food etc.   
To get a true comparison, skip the already bundled discounts and skip the Florida resident or military tickets.  Just use standard, normal, one-day park hopper tickets. 
Comparing bundled discount to bundled discount is important when comparing discounts, but not when determining the original discount.

Now, the price for that ticket -- a standard, one-day parkhopper (no water parks or photo pass add-ons) is currently $174 per ticket for September 14, 2022.

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/admission/tickets/theme-parks/

For the high holiday period at the end of December it is $224 per day. 
So, Miffy has an Incredi-pass and she can go to the parks during the high holiday end of year period.  Miffy paid $1,104 renewal price for the Incredi-pass plus 6.5% sales tax for a total of $1,175.76.  She usually spends 16 days in the parks so that averages out to be $69 per day plus tax (don't include tax in the rate of discount).  But, this year, Miffy has only spent 11 days in the parks so far and wants to go another five days between Christmas and New Years.  The daily ticket price is $224 per day.  So, $69/$224 is 0.3080.  1.00 minus 0.3080 is a 69.2% discount.  Wow!  A 69.2% discount!  Right smack dab in the middle of a high demand period!  But, as long as Miffy reserved her DVC or qualifying resort hotel rooms well in advance and made her park reservations in that package, she can get those dates and use her annual pass to enter the parks. 

Now, it really does not benefit you to compare a 9 day multi-ticket discount unless that is exactly how you "do" Disney -- in 9 day trips.  Did you see the amount of multi-day cost per day gets more dramatic the longer you stay in one trip?  That's because not many people do that.  Most people do the three to 5 or 6 day trips.  Locals who live nearby do one day at a time.  The most common guest who does the big 10 to 14 day trips are the Europeans because of how their vacation time is structured. 

Anyway, that is what Disney sees about the annual passholder and the amount of discount.  They compare it to the standard ticket prices.  They also do the calculations for multi-day ticket entries.  Bottom line, there are many prices being paid at those gates on any given day.  It is not hard for the family from Denver who pays standard ticket rates and comes every 5 years to out-spend passholder on a per day comparison.  (40% higher) But, in a year, the passholder will spend more; not Buffalo Bill and his family from Colorado.

A $3k annual pass might mean you only get multi-day tickets and come once a year.  It might mean you gather more money and just pay the freight.  That will be your choice.


----------



## AnnaKristoff2013

Sandisw said:


> They couldn’t call it an AP because people have a notion of what they are but could sell, as you say a yearly pass that has X days.
> 
> For example, a 30 day pass good for one year. I would even still pay the same thing I pay for a Sorcerer Pass for that!


A 30 day pass for Sorceror pass prices sounds way too cheap right now.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> A 30 day pass for Sorceror pass prices sounds way too cheap right now.


At Sorcerer renewal prices of $764 plus tax averaged over 30 days, it comes to $25.47 per gate admission.  Compare that to today’s single day park hopper ticket of $174 plus tax.  I agree, Anna.  Too cheap.    

However, SandiSW did suggest a 20% discount.  So take 20% off $174 is $139.2 per day for a park hopper gate entry.  Now take that times 30 days and we get $4,176.  So, I guess my estimate of $3,000 would be an excellent bargain for SandiSW!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

There is a way for people who do not have an annual pass to get one — now.  Move to Florida.  Get a Florida driver’s license and Florida bank accounts with a Florida residence address on your banking debit/credit cards.  Then buy a Pixie and activate it.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

You forgot to factor in an intangible in your hypothetical $3k AP. The bad press it's going to get from literally thousands upon thousands of disney and DVC loyalists who no longer will be. Not only that, they're going to be bad-mouthing the company to anybody that will listen. Factor a dollar amount into your equations for that and we'll talk.

I'm not sure why we're all getting so worked up. $3k for an AP, ANY AP; is ridiculous, and will never happen in my lifetime. I think you just threw that number out there to get a rise out of people. Congratulations on that. They'll scratch the program all together before they ever let it get that high because the executives and the marketing team are smarter than that. It's an exercise in fun to talk about it, but in reality, again; ain't gonna happen. No way. No how.


----------



## New Mouse

greeneyedchick said:


> It's a nice thought for the customer but why would they when they know that you will pay full price for tickets if forced to? If you're DVC, then you have already committed to coming to FL or renting your points to someone who will attend the parks. There's no reason to give you a discount (except to make you feel like Disney cares about your business).



The discount was actually intended to market dvc, not reward those who already purchased it.   We were just an unavoidable side effect of that marketing strategy.   Not joking.


----------



## Sandisw

WilsonFlyer said:


> We discussed this in my thread about this very thing a few months ago. But we're back to that points v. days thing I brought up a few posts back. 30 sounds fine to you. I suspect your points hold some bounds that keep you, for all practical purposes; under 30 days per year. But what about the family that has enough points to go 40 days per year? Drawing the line with staying on property should be constraint enough. That ties a lot of money up in the stay. It needs to be essentially an incredi-theft pass tied stringently to on-site stays. In my opinion.



My points could get me more way more than 30 if I did studios on solo trips more  That was an example anyway.

My point was more for pricing and the idea of onsite with yearly X days.  

I am willing to entertain a product that is not a traditional AP if in the end is cheaper than multi day tickets.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Would you pay $2,550 for that?  That is only $85 per day and holidays that are now $224 per day ticketed -park hopper are not blocked out.  So about 50% to 65% discount?  I am just talking compare how often you go use the parks as your personal playground and how much discount off regular park hopper prices.  You said 20% but see, that is not enough to get to the pricing you really want to use.
> 
> There needs to be a significantly higher number of days to get to the break even point comparing to one day park hoppers.  Do not just compare to 5 to 10 day multi tickets because those are already bulk ticket discounts.  If you want to talk discounts, do it from standard park hoppers.



This is where we may differ.  I don’t think you go with one day pricing because that is not what happens with an onsite guest.

For me, we do lots of short trips and my guests normally buy a 3 day park hoppers. Runs an average of $480 per person in todays pricing depending…don’t travel on holidays so not counting those days.

Now I am retired, I will be going on about 6 trips a year.  So, $2880.  Give me 20% off and I am at $2304.  

So, would I pay $2500 for a pass instead for the year that give more days than i mention above? No because if any of those trips don’t happen, then I wasted money.

Would I pay $1500? Most likely. because then I would add back in the trips I do now on check out day for an hour or two that I wouldn’t with a 3 day hopper.

Obviously, current pricing of the Sorcerer has me paying about $30 a day…based on my current use.  So $1500 would raise it to $50/ day based on actual use. 

That would be worth the risk for me to save $1300 a year against non discounted park hoppers.

That is why there won’t be any one solution sans what they have now and start selling again.


----------



## Sandisw

AnnaKristoff2013 said:


> A 30 day pass for Sorceror pass prices sounds way too cheap right now.



Well it’s currently giving me 300 plus days so I’d be paying the same price and  losing 90% of my access.  

So, I don’t think it’s cheap at all in relation to current AP pricing.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> At Sorcerer renewal prices of $764 plus tax averaged over 30 days, it comes to $25.47 per gate admission.  Compare that to today’s single day park hopper ticket of $174 plus tax.  I agree, Anna.  Too cheap.
> 
> However, SandiSW did suggest a 20% discount.  So take 20% off $174 is $139.2 per day for a park hopper gate entry.  Now take that times 30 days and we get $4,176.  So, I guess my estimate of $3,000 would be an excellent bargain for SandiSW!



So, right now Id pay $3/day on my pass If I went 300 days. Making it a 30 day pass raises my daily price $22/day.

Of course, one day ticket comparisons make sense when you go only one day at a time…but that is not how onsite and DVC guests do it…so savings on something you wouldn’t be spending isn’t savings.

Since Disney sells multi-day tickets which cost less per day, then that is what one should compare to because that one day price isn’t paid by most people.

And,yes, I realize this is why they don’t want to sell APs…but I’d be shocked to see Disney offer them again and raise the price 300%.

It would make more sense to keep the price more reasonably and cut number of days.  No PR nightmare.

Look at it another way.  If they decided to sell a $900 pass that gets you up to 50 admissions a year vs the current Sorcerer pass that was sold..and is being renewed. which has over 330 admission, they could actually sell 6 of those new passes instead just the one and keep the  number of spots in that AP bucket…the same. 

So, you went from collecting $900 from one person, to collecting $5400 from 6…and still have the total admissions sold at 300….seems like a win win to me…


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> There is a way for people who do not have an annual pass to get one — now.  Move to Florida.  Get a Florida driver’s license and Florida bank accounts with a Florida residence address on your banking debit/credit cards.  Then buy a Pixie and activate it.



As long as one has proof of utilities or recent mortgage, etc, no license is needed.

They allow those who own property or rent long term to qualify.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Something else we haven't taken into account that the reservation system has done is guaranteed disney MYW ticket money months in advance. This used to only be guaranteed from AP sales, as day guests could simply purchase their admissions when they got to a main gate. That gave a value to the AP guest to disney that was very different from a day guest. Not only was the AP money guaranteed, it was already in the bank. That has significant value on the books that simply isn't there anymore. I have always believed this piece has way more to do with AP sales and the reservations system still being in place that we give it credit for.

Never underestimate the time value of money in the bank.


----------



## New Mouse

Thinking the current pricing is too cheap misses the point of even having a pass product from Disney's side.  An annual pass is meant to bring in merch and food and beverage revenue In exchange for discounted admission.   With that you absolutely need to have outliers like people who done 364 with a bag lunch and then also people who come once or twice a year and never get the value from their pass.   It's how a company like AMC Is able to still offer unlimited movies.  

If Disney didn't have an annual pass, they would be getting $0.00 from me at not just Disney but also out in the real world.   Why? Because I invested in their product with DVC.  

Sure, there is someone in line who will buy DVC from me, but eventually enough people selling leads to a drop in resale prices and devalues DVC.

Trying to milk every customer for every dollar they have all at once is a recipe on how to destroy a company.   Great way to pump your stock numbers short term though!


----------



## DeeBee3

I don't think anyone needs to worry about prices right now. After yesterday's economic news and the fact that we are in a deep recession, Disney has a lot more to worry about than withholding APs. Average citizens can barely get their gas and groceries so the numbers of people flocking to WDW will sharply decline very soon. 

Yes, some people will be able to afford and that's good for them, but the hordes of people enjoying over the summer and other holiday times will sharply decline.

Mark this on the calendar, folks!


----------



## WilsonFlyer

DeeBee3 said:


> I don't think anyone needs to worry about prices right now. After yesterday's economic news and the fact that we are in a deep recession, Disney has a lot more to worry about than withholding APs. Average citizens can barely get their gas and groceries so the numbers of people flocking to WDW will sharply decline very soon.
> 
> Yes, some people will be able to afford and that's good for them, but the hordes of people enjoying over the summer and other holiday times will sharply decline.
> 
> Mark this on the calendar, folks!



You ain't wrong.


----------



## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Miffy, first I want to say, it is not my intention to hurt you or your feelings -- or anybody here.  I am not a Disney insider and I never speak to anybody that is -- that I know of -- although I have wondered about a couple of posters on Disboards.
> 
> But, when comparing, to get a true comparison of prices and how much discount the annual passes give, you just look at standard, one-day park hopper tickets.
> Annual passes are nothing more than bundled discounts for gate admission with hopper, parking, discounts on merch and food etc.
> Multi-day tickets are also nothing more than bundle gate admission with hopper -- without parking, discounts on merch and food etc.
> To get a true comparison, skip the already bundled discounts and skip the Florida resident or military tickets.  Just use standard, normal, one-day park hopper tickets.
> Comparing bundled discount to bundled discount is important when comparing discounts, but not when determining the original discount.
> 
> Now, the price for that ticket -- a standard, one-day parkhopper (no water parks or photo pass add-ons) is currently $174 per ticket for September 14, 2022.
> 
> https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/admission/tickets/theme-parks/
> 
> For the high holiday period at the end of December it is $224 per day.
> So, Miffy has an Incredi-pass and she can go to the parks during the high holiday end of year period.  Miffy paid $1,104 renewal price for the Incredi-pass plus 6.5% sales tax for a total of $1,175.76.  She usually spends 16 days in the parks so that averages out to be $69 per day plus tax (don't include tax in the rate of discount).  But, this year, Miffy has only spent 11 days in the parks so far and wants to go another five days between Christmas and New Years.  The daily ticket price is $224 per day.  So, $69/$224 is 0.3080.  1.00 minus 0.3080 is a 69.2% discount.  Wow!  A 69.2% discount!  Right smack dab in the middle of a high demand period!  But, as long as Miffy reserved her DVC or qualifying resort hotel rooms well in advance and made her park reservations in that package, she can get those dates and use her annual pass to enter the parks.
> 
> Now, it really does not benefit you to compare a 9 day multi-ticket discount unless that is exactly how you "do" Disney -- in 9 day trips.  Did you see the amount of multi-day cost per day gets more dramatic the longer you stay in one trip?  That's because not many people do that.  Most people do the three to 5 or 6 day trips.  Locals who live nearby do one day at a time.  The most common guest who does the big 10 to 14 day trips are the Europeans because of how their vacation time is structured.
> 
> Anyway, that is what Disney sees about the annual passholder and the amount of discount.  They compare it to the standard ticket prices.  They also do the calculations for multi-day ticket entries.  Bottom line, there are many prices being paid at those gates on any given day.  It is not hard for the family from Denver who pays standard ticket rates and comes every 5 years to out-spend passholder on a per day comparison.  (40% higher) But, in a year, the passholder will spend more; not Buffalo Bill and his family from Colorado.
> 
> A $3k annual pass might mean you only get multi-day tickets and come once a year.  It might mean you gather more money and just pay the freight.  That will be your choice.


Well, I actually do do 8- or 9-day trips, so that's how I value my own AP. And, besides that, I would never even think of taking an extra trip here or there to WDW if I didn't have my AP. The park admission would keep me from doing that. My idea of a WDW vacation isn't hanging out at the resort and having dinner at DS. I like to go to the parks. And I like the flexibility, such as it is right now, that an AP gives me.

I'm not speaking for anyone else, although I think that DVC owners and FL residents should definitely get some kind of a break on park admission. And--speaking as someone who does not own DVC--I think it's actually outrageous that there isn't at least some kind of discounted park admission for DVC owners. After all, I'm guessing that a huge percentage of DVC owners bought in because they love not just the atmosphere at WDW and the DVC properties, but the parks.

To say that my ability and/or willingness to spend the theoretical $3K on an AP is "my choice" is the equivalent of saying that purchasing a pet tarantula is my choice. No, it isn't. I wouldn't buy one. Period. No choice is involved.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Miffy said:


> Well, I actually do do 8- or 9-day trips, so that's how I value my own AP. And, besides that, I would never even think of taking an extra trip here or there to WDW if I didn't have my AP. The park admission would keep me from doing that. My idea of a WDW vacation isn't hanging out at the resort and having dinner at DS. I like to go to the parks. And I like the flexibility, such as it is right now, that an AP gives me.
> 
> I'm not speaking for anyone else, although I think that DVC owners and FL residents should definitely get some kind of a break on park admission. And--speaking as someone who does not own DVC--I think it's actually outrageous that there isn't at least some kind of discounted park admission for DVC owners. After all, I'm guessing that a huge percentage of DVC owners bought in because they love not just the atmosphere at WDW and the DVC properties, but the parks.
> 
> To say that my ability and/or willingness to spend the theoretical $3K on an AP is "my choice" is the equivalent of saying that purchasing a pet tarantula is my choice. No, it isn't. I wouldn't buy one. Period. No choice is involved.


Respectfully understood.  No attacks intended from me.  I am just a participant on these forums and my posts are no more or less valuable than yours.  I do wish for you to enjoy Disney parks and resorts.  Miffy does Miffy just fine!  Whether or not Chapek values annual passholders, CEOs have for 40 years so we must have some welcome place in their gate entry matrix.


----------



## lowlight

DeeBee3 said:


> I don't think anyone needs to worry about prices right now. After yesterday's economic news and the fact that we are in a deep recession, Disney has a lot more to worry about than withholding APs. Average citizens can barely get their gas and groceries so the numbers of people flocking to WDW will sharply decline very soon.
> 
> Yes, some people will be able to afford and that's good for them, but the hordes of people enjoying over the summer and other holiday times will sharply decline.
> 
> Mark this on the calendar, folks!



When winter heating bills arrive, I imagine travel from Europe is going to be greatly affected.  I’m not sure what percentage of attendance that is, but it’s a chunk I’m sure.


----------



## Miffy

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Respectfully understood.  No attacks intended from me.  I am just a participant on these forums and my posts are no more or less valuable than yours.  I do wish for you to enjoy Disney parks and resorts.  Miffy does Miffy just fine!  Whether or not Chapek values annual passholders, CEOs have for 40 years so we must have some welcome place in their gate entry matrix.


Yes, and thanks for saying this. I always read your posts and enjoy your take on things.


----------



## sheilafri

Ms Bibbidi said:


> IMHO there should be ONE annual pass:
> A full park hopper
> It includes water parks, photo pass
> It includes theme park parking and resort parking
> Same discounts we have now
> Tables in Wonderland
> No blockout dates,
> Park hopping is allowed after 11 a.m.
> Park entry at any park after 11 a.m. without clicking into first park
> No tiers — just one level,
> No residency categories, or DVC membership blue card restrictions
> No monthly payment plan
> First come first serve — no separate buckets
> Up to 14 reservation holds
> Guaranteed renewable annually at new rates for 10 years
> $3,000 per year for everyone — not free up to age 3


Well, that would be one way to limit the number of APs sold. I’m out at $3k per person.


----------



## RivShore

Sandisw said:


> They allow those who own property or rent long term to qualify.


That brings up the age old question of whether our DVC ownership counts - we own (for 50 yrs anyway) a tiny piece of property in FL, do we not?


----------



## CarolMN

RivShore said:


> That brings up the age old question of whether our DVC ownership counts - we own (for 50 yrs anyway) a tiny piece of property in FL, do we not?


Doesn't matter.  The documents we signed at purchase say that DVC ownership does not qualify us to receive Florida resident discounts.


----------



## RivShore

Ms Bibbidi said:


> we must have some welcome place in their gate entry matrix


I would like to see that matrix


----------



## RivShore

CarolMN said:


> Doesn't matter.  The documents we signed at purchase say that DVC ownership does not qualify us to receive Florida resident discounts.


Ahh yes, I forgot about that little statement.  But that would be an easy change for them, _if they cared_, strike that clause and let DVC buy Pixie passes at least.


----------



## RivShore

Sandisw said:


> So, right now Id pay $3/day on my pass If I went 300 days. Making it a 30 day pass raises my daily price $22/day.
> 
> Of course, one day ticket comparisons make sense when you go only one day at a time…but that is not how onsite and DVC guests do it…so savings on something you wouldn’t be spending isn’t savings.
> 
> Since Disney sells multi-day tickets which cost less per day, then that is what one should compare to because that one day price isn’t paid by most people.
> 
> And,yes, I realize this is why they don’t want to sell APs…but I’d be shocked to see Disney offer them again and raise the price 300%.
> 
> It would make more sense to keep the price more reasonably and cut number of days.  No PR nightmare.
> 
> Look at it another way.  If they decided to sell a $900 pass that gets you up to 50 admissions a year vs the current Sorcerer pass that was sold..and is being renewed. which has over 330 admission, they could actually sell 6 of those new passes instead just the one and keep the  number of spots in that AP bucket…the same.
> 
> So, you went from collecting $900 from one person, to collecting $5400 from 6…and still have the total admissions sold at 300….seems like a win win to me…


I think the easiest short term answer to throwing DVC a bone, (again, if the company cares at all), would be to extend the expiration dates of the current multi day tickets from must be used in 14 days to 1 year, either at the same price as current or with a small fee.  That way for someone who does two week long trips over the year, one 10 day ticket, netting out to $60-70 a day would work.  Or you could string together a 10 day and a 3 day.  Gives flexibility and savings.


----------



## BillPA

I would like to see the use by date be the end of your current trip, not the current 6-7 days from 1st use depending on length purchased. We go for typically 9-10 nights per trip, and get 4 or 5 day passes. But they need to be used in 6-7 days. Why can't they be good for any 5 days during the trip? And we really do miss the flexibility, and cost, of the AP.


----------



## Sandisw

RivShore said:


> That brings up the age old question of whether our DVC ownership counts - we own (for 50 yrs anyway) a tiny piece of property in FL, do we not?



The POS specially rules us out but even if didn’t, what is required in lieu of an ID with a FL address are certain types of bills which we don’t have have in our names like utilities, etc.


----------



## Sandisw

RivShore said:


> I think the easiest short term answer to throwing DVC a bone, (again, if the company cares at all), would be to extend the expiration dates of the current multi day tickets from must be used in 14 days to 1 year, either at the same price as current or with a small fee.  That way for someone who does two week long trips over the year, one 10 day ticket, netting out to $60-70 a day would work.  Or you could string together a 10 day and a 3 day.  Gives flexibility and savings.



Of course that would be a nice and easy way to do things in the interim which is why my emails in the past 6 months to DVC and DPEP have been about working harder to negotiate some alternative to APs via ticket discounts until APs come back. 

DVC isn’t going to get DPEP or the company to sell us APs when they won’t to anyone else,  but they could potentially convince them to make ticket adjustments to help us out.  

Last year, we did get the pay 4 get 2 free days like cash guests. It may not have been much but it was something.


----------



## DeeBee3

Sandisw said:


> Last year, we did get the pay 4 get 2 free days like cash guests. It may not have been much but it was something.



I agree - we made use of that deal and it really helped. Something like that would be much appreciated. Hey Disney - are you reading this!!!?


----------



## js

Hi. 

We are renewing an IncrediPass and Sorcerer Pass next month. 

Is this picture the current renewal prices. I googled but want to make sure so we can be prepared. 

Thank you.


----------



## Miffy

js said:


> Hi.
> 
> We are renewing an IncrediPass and Sorcerer Pass next month.
> 
> Is this picture the current renewal prices. I googled but want to make sure so we can be prepared.
> 
> Thank you.


As of right now these are the prices--excluding tax, as it notes on your screenshot. Let's hope they stay there for your renewal!


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

js said:


> Hi.
> 
> We are renewing an IncrediPass and Sorcerer Pass next month.
> 
> Is this picture the current renewal prices. I googled but want to make sure so we can be prepared.
> 
> Thank you.


The only tax is the local sales tax at 6.5%.


----------



## js

Miffy said:


> As of right now these are the prices--excluding tax, as it notes on your screenshot. Let's hope they stay there for your renewal!





Ms Bibbidi said:


> The only tax is the local sales tax at 6.5%.


Thank you both.


----------



## js

Does anyone know why my Sorcerer Pass is trying to renew as an IncrediPass? I am a Blue card DVC member.
Can DVC only get IncrediPass. This is what the site says:


----------



## WilsonFlyer

js said:


> Does anyone know why my Sorcerer Pass is trying to renew as an IncrediPass? I am a Blue card DVC member.



I think that's the only online renewal available. You have to call MS.


----------



## Debbie Jean

js said:


> Does anyone know why my Sorcerer Pass is trying to renew as an IncrediPass? I am a Blue card DVC member.


To renew the Sorcerer’s Pass call DVC. They authenticate you then pass you over to ticketing to make the actual purchase. Some have had long waits but when I renewed last week total time was 8 minutes. Total with tax was $813.66.  

You can’t renew Sorcerer’s online. You must call to be verified. I assume this is because last year there were some people who were allowed to buy discounted AP but did not qualify. That loop has been closed.


----------



## js

Debbie Jean said:


> To renew the Sorcerer’s Pass call DVC. They authenticate you then pass you over to ticketing to make the actual purchase. Some have had long waits but when I renewed last week total time was 8 minutes. Total with tax was $813.66.
> 
> You can’t renew Sorcerer’s online. You must call to be verified. I assume this is because last year there were some people who were allowed to buy discounted AP but did not qualify. That loop has been closed.


Perfect. 

Thank you. We have a trip planned next month and I planned on renewing then when at the parks and was just going through the motions to get the prices set. 

I will walk over to MK or Epcot during our trip and renew.

Thanks so much and thank you for giving me the full amount to be charged. I appreciate it.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

js said:


> Does anyone know why my Sorcerer Pass is trying to renew as an IncrediPass? I am a Blue card DVC member.
> Can DVC only get IncrediPass. This is what the site says:


Blue card DVC must call member services to get Sorcerer.


----------



## js

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Blue card DVC must call member services to get Sorcerer.


Thank you. I can also do in parks, is this correct?
Thanks.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

js said:


> Thank you. I can also do in parks, is this correct?
> Thanks.


I do not know.  Member services has to confirm your DVC status and then forward you to the passholder line.


----------



## js

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I do not know.  Member services has to confirm your DVC status and then forward you to the passholder line.


Thanks. Well I will try when there. Thanks.


----------



## Sandisw

js said:


> Thanks. Well I will try when there. Thanks.



I would recommend downloading the new temporary card from the website that shows your DVC membership number and the DVC Y that is on the digital pass. 

To get the renewal pass in person, you will be asked for membership number and the digital version in MM doesn’t show it.


----------



## Debbie Jean

Anyone else get the loooooong annual pass survey Disney just sent out? Looks like they are doing some research!


----------



## BeachClub2014

Debbie Jean said:


> Anyone else get the loooooong annual pass survey Disney just sent out? Looks like they are doing some research!


Nope, but sure would like to respond to one.


----------



## aka Charles

Debbie Jean said:


> Anyone else get the loooooong annual pass survey Disney just sent out? Looks like they are doing some research!


No, what kind of questions are they asking?


----------



## Debbie Jean

aka Charles said:


> No, what kind of questions are they asking?



Everything! It was actually very long. What kind of pass I have… how many visits… was I on property, etc. Then loads of questions on passholder benefits and discounts… what did I use, how often, etc.

It was long and I thought pretty exhaustive… much more thorough than other surveys I’ve done for Disney. Makes me think they may be looking at the program and either a redesign or relaunch.


----------



## aka Charles

Debbie Jean said:


> Everything! It was actually very long. What kind of pass I have… how many visits… was I on property, etc. Then loads of questions on passholder benefits and discounts… what did I use, how often, etc.
> 
> It was long and I thought pretty exhaustive… much more thorough than other surveys I’ve done for Disney. Makes me think they may be looking at the program and either a redesign or relaunch.



That sounds promising, fingers crossed!


----------



## DonMacGregor

Debbie Jean said:


> Everything! It was actually very long. What kind of pass I have… how many visits… was I on property, etc. Then loads of questions on passholder benefits and discounts… what did I use, how often, etc.
> 
> It was long and I thought pretty exhaustive… much more thorough than other surveys I’ve done for Disney. Makes me think they may be looking at the program and either a redesign or relaunch.


Sounds like what they did at DL when they switched from AP's to MK's. We got about a 15-page long survey filled with multiple choice questions, 1-10 rankings, strongly like to strongly dislike, comment sections, you name it.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

DonMacGregor said:


> Sounds like what they did at DL when they switched from AP's to MK's. We got about a 15-page long survey filled with multiple choice questions, 1-10 rankings, strongly like to strongly dislike, comment sections, you name it.



Might make for interesting talking points if you could go back to your email and see when you originally got the survey and see how long it actually was between that and the new MK program appearing. I bet it wasn't very quick.


----------



## DonMacGregor

WilsonFlyer said:


> Might make for interesting talking points if you could go back to your email and see when you originally got the survey and see how long it actually was between that and the new MK program appearing. I bet it wasn't very quick.


Survey went out January 23, 2021. The Magic Key program was announced August 3rd, and Keys went on sale August 25th. Keep in mind. DL was still shut down until April 30.


----------



## Brian Noble

RivShore said:


> But that would be an easy change for them, _if they cared_, strike that clause


There is zero chance that the Walt Disney Company would consider DVC owners "residents," because residents are entitled to vote. And, at least for now, the company still controls its very own public government in which those residents would reside.

But they don't need to consider DVC Members FL Residents to allow them to buy the Pixie Dust pass. They can just decide to do it. And they haven't.


----------



## RivShore

Brian Noble said:


> There is zero chance that the Walt Disney Company would consider DVC owners "residents," because residents are entitled to vote. And, at least for now, the company still controls its very own public government in which those residents would reside.
> 
> But they don't need to consider DVC Members FL Residents to allow them to buy the Pixie Dust pass. They can just decide to do it. And they haven't.


Agreed, they could just do it, no need to dive into the residency black hole.  

But I would think that DVC would just be considered part time residents-so no voting rights.


----------



## js

Sandisw said:


> I would recommend downloading the new temporary card from the website that shows your DVC membership number and the DVC Y that is on the digital pass.
> 
> To get the renewal pass in person, you will be asked for membership number and the digital version in MM doesn’t show it.



Thank you.
I have:
My Name

Affiliatoin
DVC Y, Annual

ID
XXXX


----------



## Debbie Jean

js said:


> Thank you.
> I have:
> My Name
> 
> Affiliatoin
> DVC Y, Annual
> 
> ID
> XXXX


Remember the ID is not your membership number. They may not need it since you show DVC Y but you could also copy the temporary card still available on the DVC website which does have your member number on it.

My understanding is they still can’t read the QR code.


----------



## Sandisw

Debbie Jean said:


> Remember the ID is not your membership number. They may not need it since you show DVC Y but you could also copy the temporary card still available on the DVC website which does have your member number on it.
> 
> My understanding is they still can’t read the QR code.



They do need you membership number to renew.


----------



## cm8

CarolMN said:


> Doesn't matter.  The documents we signed at purchase say that DVC ownership does not qualify us to receive Florida resident discounts.


And yet some of these DVC owners hang their hats on their purchases as if They ARE indeed owed the opportunity and rights to purchase an AP!


----------



## lowlight

cm8 said:


> And yet some of these DVC owners hang their hats on their purchases as if They ARE indeed owed the opportunity and rights to purchase an AP!


I’m sure some feel that way, but I’d reckon the majority of us didn’t buy DVC, at least initially, because of the AP, we bought the AP because of DVC.  Once you hit a certain amount of points, not having an AP means adding on more points is a tough proposition.  Nobody is buying 1000 DVC points without an AP unless they really love Disney and are supremely bad at finances.  So it’s not that I feel owed an AP, it’s that my usage of DVC requires it and I won’t keep my contracts without it.


----------



## Mexacajun

lowlight said:


> I’m sure some feel that way, but I’d reckon the majority of us didn’t buy DVC, at least initially, because of the AP, we bought the AP because of DVC.  Once you hit a certain amount of points, not having an AP means adding on more points is a tough proposition.  Nobody is buying 1000 DVC points without an AP unless they really love Disney and are supremely bad at finances.  So it’s not that I feel owed an AP, it’s that my usage of DVC requires it and I won’t keep my contracts without it.


I bought 950 points this year. I assumed we would get them back. I am bad at math. . I will stick it out another year or two and then I am gonna sell if I can’t get an AP. I am not blaming anyone or saying Disney owes me one, I am just saying that the value proposition for me with that many points and No AP is just not there.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Mexacajun said:


> I bought 950 points this year. I assumed we would get them back. I am bad at math. . I will stick it out another year or two and then I am gonna sell if I can’t get an AP. I am not blaming anyone or saying Disney owes me one, I am just saying that the value proposition for me with that many points and No AP is just not there.


I think you will be ok.


----------



## MalorieA

Mexacajun said:


> I bought 950 points this year. I assumed we would get them back. I am bad at math. . I will stick it out another year or two and then I am gonna sell if I can’t get an AP. I am not blaming anyone or saying Disney owes me one, I am just saying that the value proposition for me with that many points and No AP is just not there.


We’re in the same boat as you except not nearly as many points purchased. But I never would’ve bought a second contract if I knew APs weren’t coming back. Just made the assumption. We have a kid who spent his first 2 years of life in and out of the hospital, mostly in. Now that life is getting better for him we’re in that “Life is too short” mode. And we have several members on both sides of our family that want to join us for trips in the next year and celebrate some normalcy…hence the second contract. 
But honestly I wouldn't have wanted to play the wait and see game any longer anyway because of my kids’ ages ….1 and 3….everything is amazing to them right now. And I know it’ll evolve as they get older.  I’m staying optimistic. But I do have a plan for every scenerio it’s annoying


----------



## New Mouse

cm8 said:


> And yet some of these DVC owners hang their hats on their purchases as if They ARE indeed owed the opportunity and rights to purchase an AP!



Do you think as many people would have purchased DVC if the sales guides told them hey by the way there's a good chance you will have to pay full price for tickets every time you visit and tickets will go up exponentially over the years?


----------



## Mexacajun

Ms Bibbidi said:


> I think you will be ok.


I think so too. Just waiting not so patiently.


----------



## cm8

New Mouse said:


> Do you think as many people would have purchased DVC if the sales guides told them hey by the way there's a good chance you will have to pay full price for tickets every time you visit and tickets will go up exponentially over the years?


Yes, we did. Not once was having access to AP and or discounted tickets on our radar? But maybe it was because we were already paying full price for them before other ticket offers came about? Everything will go up in prices as the years progress.

Our Maintenance  fees have risen sharply and that was also factored in. People still purchased even after being told their purchase was separate from park access and availability of certain perks. That fault lies with them, not DVC or Disney. Does it make sense to locate DVC next to parks and not expect to go? Maybe not, but most people use their ownership to visit around town and or do resort stays only.  End of the day it’s still just a Timeshare that’s just so happens to be located next to a well known Theme Park.


----------



## Nabas

cm8 said:


> Yes, we did. Not once was having access to AP and or discounted tickets on our radar? But maybe it was because we were already paying full price for them before other ticket offers came about?


How many times a year do you visit WDW?

We visit 4-6 times per year, usually only staying at a park 3 hours or less on days we visit them.  (We spend a lot of time at the DVC resort and elsewhere.)

For us, spending full price for tickets would be insane.

Btw, we would love a cheaper “after 4 pm” or “weekdays only” annual pass ticket.  We could make either of those work.


----------



## cm8

Nabas said:


> How many times a year do you visit WDW?
> 
> We visit 4-6 times per year, usually only staying at a park 3 hours or less on days we visit them.  (We spend a lot of time at the DVC resort and elsewhere.)
> 
> For us, spending full price for tickets would be insane.
> 
> Btw, we would love a cheaper “after 4 pm” or “weekdays only” annual pass ticket.  We could make either of those work.


April (Spring Break ) (7 days)  June /July (10 days) 

October (4 days) Long weekend usually same weekend every year for MNSSHP. 

Christmas Break (15 days) 

and maybe a quick 2 day weekend if we’re doing a Preview of some sort.


----------



## lowlight

cm8 said:


> Actually we have a good bit of points and travel there a lot. How I spend my money is none of your business and you’re not in the position to tell me I’m wasting MY money.


You attacked an entire segment of DVC owners because they are upset about AP’s.  What was the purpose of your post?  It’s not my fault I am good with money, it’s probably because I work hard for it.


----------



## cm8

lowlight said:


> You attacked an entire segment of DVC owners because they are upset about AP’s.  What was the purpose of your post?  It’s not my fault I am good with money, it’s probably because I work hard for it.


Audacity must be on sale this morning. I didn’t attack any one and this will be my last response to you. 

What was the PURPOSE of your post? 
 I  work just as hard as you do for what I have and how I choose to spend my money is still none of your business. 

What I won’t spend my time doing is going back and forth with someone  so  bent on attacking others and then turning around and accusing them of said attack and mismanagement of THEIR own money.


----------



## TraderStitch

Seems like a good place to jump in. LoL

I leave you with this: when it comes to Disney, absolutely no one is entitled to anything.  Everything they allow us to buy is because someone crunched the numbers and they make money.  If it doesn't add to the bottom line we ain't getting it.


----------



## jo-jo

cm8 said:


> Does it make sense to locate DVC next to parks and not expect to go? Maybe not, but most people use their ownership to visit around town and or do resort stays only.  End of the day it’s still just a Timeshare that’s just so happens to be located next to a well known Theme Park.


I'll like to see a poll of how many use their points for resort stays only.   Or just a room to go elsewhere.   I'm sure there are some,and I'm sure there are many that may go off site to eat a meal or visit another attraction for a day or two.    But I can't believe most visit without going into disney parks.


----------



## lowlight

jo-jo said:


> I'll like to see a poll of how many use their points for resort stays only.   Or just a room to go elsewhere.   I'm sure there are some,and I'm sure there are many that may go off site to eat a meal or visit another attraction for a day or two.    But I can't believe most visit without going into disney parks.


It’s the age old argument “you just bought a room”. Everyone knows it’s disingenuous, but people still make the claim.  It’s especially common for people who have owned DVC for a long time and whose children are grown past the park going age, and aren’t affected by loss of AP’s or other such changes.


----------



## TraderStitch

Ask an ye shall receive. Just put a poll up on the DVC Misc board.


----------



## DeeBee3

This thread is getting much too snarky. Life is short. We are on a Disney message site. Let's act "magically" with one another.

That's my Mr. Rogers for the day.

Now, go, FIGHT on the Internet.


----------



## Duckbug.Ducktales

lowlight said:


> It’s the age old argument “you just bought a room”. Everyone knows it’s disingenuous, but people still make the claim.  It’s especially common for people who have owned DVC for a long time and whose children are grown past the park going age, and aren’t affected by loss of AP’s or other such changes.


I certainly think most DVC owners go to the parks. And  it is true that you only bought a room. DVC, however, should also know that many would be unsatisfied with that answer and I hope they're working hard to get some form of ticket discount back for the membership.


----------



## jo-jo

TraderStitch said:


> Ask an ye shall receive. Just put a poll up on the DVC Misc board.


Thank you.  I had no idea how to do one.    

Now can I ask for a million dollars????


----------



## TraderStitch

jo-jo said:


> Thank you.  I had no idea how to do one.
> 
> Now can I ask for a million dollars????


I'm looking for an answer to that question myself. Lol


----------



## RoseGold

I find these "all you bought was a room" responses hilarious.  Even after Covid, these boards were full of people squeezing out a few hundred dollars on APs as the reason to buy direct.

Of course the behavior of the parks impact us.  Plenty of us, including me, wouldn't have even considered DVC if APs weren't an option.  I view DVC as much riskier than when I bought in because of this behavior, and I have an AP.

If APs come back, I think they will be more expensive and more blacked out than people are used to.  That's fine with me, heck, I'd be OK on a Pixie Dust pass.  But I think they will actually become filler for undesirable days.  And IMO, there's no way this mess with the APs isn't impacting the value of my DVC contracts.


----------



## RivShore

cm8 said:


> most people use their ownership to visit around town and or do resort stays only.


This can't be true.  Is there any data to support that 51%+ of DVC stays do not utilize the parks?


----------



## WilsonFlyer

RivShore said:


> This can't be true.  Is there any data to support that 51%+ of DVC stays do not utilize the parks?



Yeah. Somebody pulled that one out of thin air. That number isn't even close to being right unless there's empirical data somewhere, and there's not. Disney would be the only one that could authenticate it, and they wouldn't, especially if it was true.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.  

That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.



I am certain that has already happened to a lot of people. It would have happened to us, had they not closed AP sales just before we were supposed to renew. We speculated the then invisible writing on the wall and didn't take the risk, so we are safe. The writing's not so invisible anymore.


----------



## RoseGold

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK. Here's an elephant in this room. How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?" Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it


They were only for sale for a couple months.  There was no need to buy it right this minute unless you were going soon, based on all historical precedent.  And they're EXPENSIVE.

I'm actually not sure why I bought mine as early as I did, months before, except that I didn't trust Disney anymore.

Sure, maybe they were bridging.  Or maybe they weren't going until November or January.


----------



## lowlight

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.
> 
> That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.


 
I didn’t get caught out because I saw what was happening, but how is bridging a “technique”?  It’s no different than a local buying an AP and going fifty times that year and then not buying the next year because they are Disneyed out.  An AP should stand on its own, no matter how it’s used.  There’s no need to make the way people use them sound underhanded or as if they are taking advantage of something.


----------



## CarolMN

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.
> 
> That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.


Would have been caught, but fortunately for us, we bought APs again during the short period they went back on sale.   Recently renewed, even though I would have preferred to wait a few months and buy new again.


----------



## Miffy

CarolMN said:


> Would have been caught, but fortunately for us, we bought APs again during the short period they went back on sale.   Recently renewed, even though I would have preferred to wait a few months and buy new again.


I learned my lesson on stopping and starting again a few years ago. I thought I was so clever, saving a few bucks, but then I ended up with an unexpected (yay!) trip to WDW and had to buy a new AP at the non-renewal rate and it was a bit of sticker shock, since I'd been used to renewing. After that, I decided I'd never let it lapse again. I briefly contemplated canceling it during 2020, but decided to keep it anyway. I probably lost a few bucks, because there was a long period when we didn't go, but right now I'm very very glad I kept renewing.

I told myself that my non-canceled AP during 2020 was helping to pay for taking care of the animals at DAK and AKL, which made me feel like the money went to a good cause.

Edited for clarity and new info.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

lowlight said:


> I didn’t get caught out because I saw what was happening, but how is bridging a “technique”?  It’s no different than a local buying an AP and going fifty times that year and then not buying the next year because they are Disneyed out.  An AP should stand on its own, no matter how it’s used.  There’s no need to make the way people use them sound underhanded or as if they are taking advantage of something.


IMHO, they were "taking advantage" using a method, technique etc to cut costs.  Taking advantage of something does not equate with "under-handed.  There is no negative connotation.    
I did not imply it was under-handed by any means.  IMHO, saving money is smart, not under-handed.  I understand some TAs and CMs even recommended it.  

But, I do think that is how a whole lot of DVC people got caught out without an AP.  It was a technique that involved some risk since Disney's fine print did state that sales could stop at any time.  They took a risk.  That's my point.  They took a risk.  More than one Disney World blog warned of selling out and limited numbers -- before they even went on sale last September 8th. So, somebody told them that. 

Here's an example.  

"But NOTE!! To help with attendance numbers,* Disney will be limiting the number of Annual Passes on sale.* This means the new Annual Passes CAN sell out. So, if you’re planning to purchase a pass on September 8th, be sure to set your alarms so you have a better chance of snagging one! We’ll remind you when Annual Passes go on sale, so stay tuned for the latest Disney news."  (https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2021...for-disney-world-and-there-have-been-changes/,  Accessed 2022-09-16.)​​Disney's terms and conditions also say the same thing.

Those who bought new annual passes last fall cannot all be new AP customers without a history of previously owning an AP.  There is a figure floating around that 40% of the sales of APs, when new sales were open, were to "new" passholders.  But, "new passholders" by Disney's definition could mean former passholders who had let their previous AP lapse and then bought again -- like the bridging technique.  So, I was thinking some DVC owners got caught out and there were fewer actual brand new passholders added.  

BTW, my Platinum Plus that I had been renewing annually expired in April 2019 -- because we moved 3,000 miles away, not because I ""Disneyed out."   Life events and all that.  Back now and I have a Pixie -- for now.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Here's another one that warned of selling out.

"Disney announced a new Annual Pass system with four new tiers of passes and changes to the program in general. The blockout days for select passes have changed, prices are a little different, and non-Florida resident options for Annual Passes are very limited. That’s a lot of new changes to keep track of! And *here’s one more change that you should be aware of before buying your new Disney World Annual Pass.*​​Disney announced that *the new Annual Passes CAN sell out*! *The number of passes is limited*, so at any time Annual Passes *may be unavailable for purchase*."  (https://allears.net/2021/08/30/disney-world-confirms-annual-pass-sales-will-be-limited/, Accessed 2022/09/16.)​
My point is this is now the nature of the new character passes.  When they have enough inventory to sustain sales for a reasonable period they will re-open new AP sales.  But, when they do, the demand will be enormous.  They are likely to use a virtual queue and the sale period may be very short.  

Also, when someone doesn't renew because they are upset with Disney, not only does that put their APs back in inventory, it also has an added positive effect for Disney of letting go of a dissatisfied customer -- for them, a "loose cannon."


----------



## quandrea

I was one of those people who would use an AP heavily for its duration and then let it lapse. They got too expensive to hold every year, and really, how often do I actually need to be in the parks.  On our off years, we’d do resort only stays. I buy five APs so it’s a huge outlay of cash. I will continue in this manner should APs ever return. I just can’t justify renewing every single year. If I get caught without being able to buy an AP, perhaps I’ll buy tickets for a day or two. Disney will definitely see less revenue from me.


----------



## RoseGold

quandrea said:


> On our off years, we’d do resort only stays. I buy five APs so it’s a huge outlay of cash. I will continue in this manner should APs ever return. I just can’t justify renewing every single year. If I get caught without being able to buy an AP, perhaps I’ll buy tickets for a day or two. Disney will definitely see less revenue from me.


Assuming they continue to be offered sporadically (big assumption)....  You could still plan around this if they offer them, say, in February.  You just activate it in August and use like you did before and plan not to be able to renew until some random future date.

I'm assuming my AP is it for my family and there won't be more.  So we are going to go big on this pass.  And then maybe that's the end.


----------



## jo-jo

quandrea said:


> I was one of those people who would use an AP heavily for its duration and then let it lapse. They got too expensive to hold every year, and really, how often do I actually need to be in the parks.


We have 300 points,  one year make a few trips with banking and current year.   Use 500 -600 points and then wait for points to build again.   Usually take trip just for us, then trip with kids, then trip just for us.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

We have now passed September 8th, so if it was going to be an annual event, it appears to me it would have been offered close to the beginning of September.  I don't think it is an annual event.  I don't think it will have an annual or seasonal rhythm.  If they re-open new sales it is likely to be "sporadic" like Rose Gold said.   It is not driven by a "low season."   In fact, I could well see Disney going two or three years or more between opening new sales -- especially if people are vowing to renew solely because of fear of being left behind.  

I kind of think the bridging technique, which only worked for sure when sales were open and reliable, is now a failed technique for the future.  For those DVC or other Disney fans who thought they were going to renew in March at Spring Break (for example) but now it is just 6 months later than they wanted, those people are going to have to back up and re-evaluate.  I repeat, *it is now the nature of these new passes that the sales will not be continuous*.  They have a cap limit on the number distributed and they did and will sell out.  Disney executives acknowledge this and affirmatively state they have other tools/levers to bring up attendance if need be.  Admittedly it is fluid, a deep recession could trigger something else by Disney.  But, it is not just crowded parks, shortage of staff, closed attractions, a crowded holiday season or the other things that people have guessed were the reason sales were paused.  It is the new nature of these character annual passes.  This was a big, big sea change that was posted by the blogs, but a lot of people ignored.  

When the nature of a product changes this drastically, it is time for the consumer to step back, take a look at it and either fund it or change course.  Live life, but don't do it "on hold" for future annual passes that might be very different than those you owned pre-pandemic.  Read the terms and conditions.  Understand it and make a decision for you and your loved ones.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

jo-jo said:


> We have 300 points,  one year make a few trips with banking and current year.   Use 500 -600 points and then wait for points to build again.   Usually take trip just for us, then trip with kids, then trip just for us.


That's another technique that worked well with continuous sales of annual passes.  Would you do this kind of planning if you knew you either had to renew your annual passes every single year and never skip a year?  The only other reliable alternative is to let the annual passes expire and plan to buy tickets when you do go.  Maybe you can get a sale.


----------



## jo-jo

Ms Bibbidi said:


> That's another technique that worked well with continuous sales of annual passes.  Would you do this kind of planning if you knew you either had to renew your annual passes every single year and never skip a year?  The only other reliable alternative is to let the annual passes expire and plan to buy tickets when you do go.  Maybe you can get a sale.



We aren't a good subject.    We are coming to the end of our trips.    But if this was 7-8 years ago, and AP cost 800-1200.    I'd  take one long trip.  Take the kids for part of the trip.   Use 10 days tickets and rent out rest of points.  Yes, Disney is still getting money from someone, but not me.   I'm not spending a grand just to sit in a drawer for a year.   Part of our planning back then (and this has changed too) was having credits with SW.   Use them up within one year.


----------



## CarolynFH

jo-jo said:


> Use 10 days tickets


If the AP cost less than the 10-day ticket, which would you buy?


----------



## Madame

What’s burning my bacon now is the allowance of those newly 3/4 year olds grandfathered in & allowed a new purchase.  If they’re capping the number and not releasing any until enough choose not to renew, then this is slowing that release down.  And if it’s lawsuit related, they’re adding more potential complainants.  Make it make sense.


----------



## jo-jo

CarolynFH said:


> If the AP cost less than the 10-day ticket, which would you buy?


yes.   That would be goofy not to.   I've said this about 50 times, I'd love the pixie pass.


----------



## RivShore

Madame said:


> What’s burning my bacon now is the allowance of those newly 3/4 year olds grandfathered in & allowed a new purchase.  If they’re capping the number and not releasing any until enough choose not to renew, then this is slowing that release down.  And if it’s lawsuit related, they’re adding more potential complainants.  Make it make sense.


Have to imagine it is a tiny tiny tiny percentage.


----------



## quandrea

jo-jo said:


> yes.   That would be goofy not to.   I've said this about 50 times, I'd love the pixie pass.


I’ve been asking for the pixie pass for years. It would be perfect for us. 

We are booked for forty nights in Jan/Feb. If I can’t get an ap, I’ll buy the U.K. 14 d ticket. After that, it will be time off from the parks.


----------



## cm8

RivShore said:


> This can't be true.  Is there any data to support that 51%+ of DVC stays do not utilize the parks?


Can you show me where I said anything about 51% of DVC stays not utilizing the parks? I simply stated MOST people who use DVC (that number can be whatever you would like it to be)  Maybe you can ask DVC or anyone on this board that tracks DVC usage with and without Park use? I’m not sure of how one would gain access to that information. It’s all speculation at this point. I’m sure if DVC sales were  dependent upon Annual Passes being available, they would be cranking out the Passes left and right.


----------



## lowlight

Ms Bibbidi said:


> IMHO, they were "taking advantage" using a method, technique etc to cut costs.  Taking advantage of something does not equate with "under-handed.  There is no negative connotation.
> I did not imply it was under-handed by any means.  IMHO, saving money is smart, not under-handed.  I understand some TAs and CMs even recommended it.



I understand what you are saying, but to "take advantage" of something means to use it in a manner which is not consistent with the intent, and unequal to one party over the other.  You say you weren't implying anything negative, but your last line clearly says people doing this were "playing with Disney's profits".  I don't believe that to be the case.  My point is that bridging two trips into one AP year and then alternating years of AP purchases isn't taking advantage of a system, it's using it exactly the way it's meant and laid out by Disney when they offer it.  It's the same as someone using it 300 days a year, they aren't "using the parks as their playground", they are using their AP within the confines of the contract.  Bob Chapek is wrong, and at some point he's going to bite off a piece bigger than he can chew.  I'm betting AP's are that bite.


Madame said:


> What’s burning my bacon now is the allowance of those newly 3/4 year olds grandfathered in & allowed a new purchase. If they’re capping the number and not releasing any until enough choose not to renew, then this is slowing that release down. And if it’s lawsuit related, they’re adding more potential complainants. Make it make sense.



I'm someone who benefited from this.  To be honest, I didn't think I'd be able to and was pleasantly surprised when they let me.  I do understand how it would tick you off.  I'm not sure there's a good way for Disney to have handled that situation without upsetting one side or the other.


----------



## coronationday

After 5 days of reading this thread a couple hours a day I have finally read the last post. What a wild ride, reading your predictions from months ago and knowing what happened was fun. I will add my two cents, I don't think they are going to sell APs again this year. I would imagine they don't want to pack the parks even more during the Christmas season and then we have marathon weekend that is already packing the hotels and parks. So maybe they would see how is the attendance late January to decide if they open the AP sales again. But if they sell new APs they are going to be pricier and with more blackout dates than before, I would imagine.


----------



## CraigInPA

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.
> 
> That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.



I was one of them. I bridged February 2019/January 2020. With Covid's onset (starting in February 2020), we decided not to renew. The resorts closed. When they offered the recovery pass, we didn't qualify because our AP renewal window closed 2 days before DVC shut down due to Covid. When they opened them up for anyone to buy, we didn't have a trip scheduled, so we didn't buy. Then, they shut off new AP purchases entirely. So, no AP for us. 

We're going to Universal in 2023 as a protest against Disney's AP (and Genie+ and ILL's) policy.


----------



## RivShore

cm8 said:


> Can you show me where I said anything about 51% of DVC stays not utilizing the parks? I simply stated MOST people who use DVC (that number can be whatever you would like it to be)  Maybe you can ask DVC or anyone on this board that tracks DVC usage with and without Park use? I’m not sure of how one would gain access to that information. It’s all speculation at this point. I’m sure if DVC sales were  dependent upon Annual Passes being available, they would be cranking out the Passes left and right.


OK, I'll bite...

I have always taken "most" to mean the largest portion of something.

So with this issue, we have two choices - DVC stays that include Parks and DVC stays that do not.  Based on your statement that "most DVC stays do not include parks" it would mean that more than half of the stays do not include parks.  So the 51% comes directly from you.  Not sure how there is any other way to interpret it?  How can "most" mean something less than 51%, when there are only two choices?


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Madame said:


> What’s burning my bacon now is the allowance of those newly 3/4 year olds grandfathered in & allowed a new purchase.  If they’re capping the number and not releasing any until enough choose not to renew, then this is slowing that release down.  And if it’s lawsuit related, they’re adding more potential complainants.  Make it make sense.


Yes.  I totally understand.  When you find the truth, the details -- even the smallest details -- will fit.

Allowance of the new passes for the newly turned 3 year old is Disney's choice of policy.  They don't want to block the whole family because a 3 year old has aged in.  I personally don't agree with their policy of "free under three" but it is their policy. 

Yes, giving a new pass to a newly minted 3 year old would slow down the replenishment of the renewal inventory from a new sales release.  Collateral damage.

Lawsuit related.  I am thinking that the strongest effect of the lawsuit is centered on Disneyland.  The Court won't issue an opinion on whether or not to certify the class action until about January.  That's the latest info I saw.  

So, Disney decides that the two bucket system or shorting the passholder bucket isn't the tool they will use because of the litigation.  But, they decide to continue the limitation of the number of annual passes instead.

One of the tools McCarthy mentioned was lifting block-out days (for existing passholders.)  Chapek talks about turning on a dime with dynamic pricing (sales) and higher discounts.  They talk about afternoon entries (freeing up all day morning slots.  Another idea floated is a membership like Amazon for discounts.  They have a detailed survey pending.  Chapek may abandon the single lever of control through shorting a passholder bucket.  All he needed to do was hold back some reservations for the family from Denver from all of the online buckets.  They keep park reservations in their hip pockets. 

With maybe 500,000 outstanding passholders at WDW, they have big numbers to play with.  One that appears to be a favorite now is limiting the number of distributed passes.


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

lowlight said:


> I understand what you are saying, but to "take advantage" of something means to use it in a manner which is not consistent with the intent, and unequal to one party over the other.


We disagree on the definition of "take advantage."  I just meant "to use."  My use of the term -- my definition -- Merriam Webster 1st definition.

Definition of _take advantage of_​​*1: to make good use of (something)* *: *to profit by (something)take advantage of an opportunity.  We took advantage of the warm weather and did some yard work.​2a*: *to impose on (someone) *: *to ask for or expect more than is fair or reasonable from (someone)After a while, I began to think she was taking advantage of me. He felt like he'd been taken advantage of.​b*: *to use (something or someone) unfairly for personal gain.  He took advantage of [=exploited] my lack of experience. It adds that young people in care homes, with learning disabilities, those excluded from school or using drugs or alcohol are particularly vulnerable to being targeted by people who take advantage of them for money, food or drugs.— Stephen Naysmith​c*: *to exploit (someone) sexually  The star shared her experiences of Hollywood bosses who tried to take advantage of her in the early days of her career.— _The Belfast Telegraph Online  (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dic...: to make good use,was taking advantage of me.)_​


----------



## Sandisw

TraderStitch said:


> Seems like a good place to jump in. LoL
> 
> I leave you with this: when it comes to Disney, absolutely no one is entitled to anything.  Everything they allow us to buy is because someone crunched the numbers and they make money.  If it doesn't add to the bottom line we ain't getting it.



Exactly.  I do agree with others that no one ever imagined a time when there would be no AP option for tickets, but I also agree that no one should ever assume things can’t change.  

The current lack of APs isn’t something DVC is in control of and when we bought in 2009, even though we were doing the ever other year trip on one AP as cash guests, it didn’t enter into our decision to buy.

Now, having it has definitely given me  ability to “justify” buying more points but I can’t be angry Id Disney discontinues them. I can be disappointed and frustrated, but not angry in the sense that I was entitled to them.

It just means I have to make some other decisions in how I use my points and how I visit the parks or the rest of my life bucget.


----------



## Sandisw

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.
> 
> That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.



I think many got caught off guard in 2020 for sure and had always waited until the last minutes,

Then, when they came back in 2021, some jumped on them right away and others waited, even though they did announce they could suspend sales at any times in the future.

My initial plan was to buy a few new vouches  as back up for DH and one of my DDs as well as myself.l.even though I have one…but had held off because of the one year expiration that was put into place in 2021…and, of course,  sale stopped before I could get it.

So, I snoozed and I lost.  They don’t have them.  I do think it tells anyone that if the go on sale again, you better jump on it…I know I will.


----------



## Sandisw

RoseGold said:


> Assuming they continue to be offered sporadically (big assumption)....  You could still plan around this if they offer them, say, in February.  You just activate it in August and use like you did before and plan not to be able to renew until some random future date.
> 
> I'm assuming my AP is it for my family and there won't be more.  So we are going to go big on this pass.  And then maybe that's the end.



This can work but the bigger change in 2021 was that new vouchers expire  in one year from purchase so it’s not like it used to be where you could get ahead of things 

Now, if you don’t activate in that one year, the voucher is only good for its value and not the actual pass.


----------



## robinb

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.
> 
> That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.


We got caught by that in 2020.  We let our APs lapse in November 2019 and made plans for October 2020.  Disney stopped selling APs the day I put 2 in my cart in June 2020.  I went to pay for them and there was an error because they pulled them in the hour it took me to decide how to pay for them.  We ended up canceling 10/20 and not going until 5/21 when we bit the bullet and bought a 10-day PH. We bought APs last October 2021 while they were on sale again and are on our 3rd trip right now (sitting out the rain at our resort).  We are going to let the APs expire (!) and hope we can pick them up again next year.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Madame said:


> What’s burning my bacon now is the allowance of those newly 3/4 year olds grandfathered in & allowed a new purchase.  If they’re capping the number and not releasing any until enough choose not to renew, then this is slowing that release down.  And if it’s lawsuit related, they’re adding more potential complainants.  Make it make sense.



Would you want to be the one telling those parents, "No."?


----------



## WilsonFlyer

cm8 said:


> Can you show me where I said anything about 51% of DVC stays not utilizing the parks? I simply stated MOST people who use DVC (that number can be whatever you would like it to be)  Maybe you can ask DVC or anyone on this board that tracks DVC usage with and without Park use? I’m not sure of how one would gain access to that information. It’s all speculation at this point. *I’m sure if DVC sales were  dependent upon Annual Passes being available, they would be cranking out the Passes left and right.*



As to your last sentence, I fear you have a grave misconception of which tail wags which dog. DVC is but a tick on a St Bernard when it comes to what parks do. Ironically, that's _our_ problem.


----------



## Madame

WilsonFlyer said:


> Would you want to be the one telling those parents, "No."?


They tell other family members no all the time.  There are a couple examples floating around here of all but one family member with an AP and that family member is unable to purchase.  I see no difference just bc it was free for your child and now it isn’t.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Ms Bibbidi said:


> With *maybe 500,000 outstanding passholders at WDW*, they have big numbers to play with.  One that appears to be a favorite now is limiting the number of distributed passes.



Source, please?


----------



## Maistre Gracey

If Disney wants to make more money, why offer a renewal rate? There are folks lined up ready to pay the price of a “new” pass. 
Seems like that would be a win for both Disney, and folks currently locked out… yet still giving the option for current APers to renew (at new price).


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Madame said:


> They tell other family members no all the time.  There are a couple examples floating around here of all but one family member with an AP and that family member is unable to purchase.  I see no difference just bc it was free for your child and now it isn’t.



They are likely telling families where everybody else doesn't own an AP 'No' to the 3 YOs also. You're trying to twist my point to suit your agenda, yet my point stands on its own.


----------



## BeachClub2014

Madame said:


> They tell other family members no all the time.  There are a couple examples floating around here of all but one family member with an AP and that family member is unable to purchase.  I see no difference just bc it was free for your child and now it isn’t.


You really don't see a difference in those scenarios? I do. In one example, the outlier family member is of the age where a ticket was needed and either had no ticket or chose a different type. In the example of the child "aging" into the need for a ticket, never needed a ticket before so that child should be able to get the same type of ticket as their parents. IMHO, anyways.


----------



## Madame

WilsonFlyer said:


> They are likely telling families where everybody else doesn't own an AP 'No' to the 3 YOs also. You're trying to twist my point to suit your agenda, yet my point stands on its own.


I don’t have an agenda.  I agree with you more often than not    They are doing just that.  Family all have APs.  Newly turned 3 year old gets approved for first time AP.  This site has gotten unreal in the last year or so.  I’ll refrain from pushing my agenda on you going forward


----------



## Madame

BeachClub2014 said:


> You really don't see a difference in those scenarios? I do. In one example, the outlier family member is of the age where a ticket was needed and either had no ticket or chose a different type. In the example of the child "aging" into the need for a ticket, never needed a ticket before so that child should be able to get the same type of ticket as their parents. IMHO, anyways.


Not really.   A new AP is a new AP.


----------



## BeachClub2014

Madame said:


> Not really.   A new AP is a new AP.


Interesting. No wiggle room for common sense in that worldview. Zero tolerance to accommodation on any policy rarely makes sense or works. And I would hate to be in a world where that was true. Just sayin' that a little common sense, understanding, and grace go a long way.


----------



## RoseGold

Maistre Gracey said:


> If Disney wants to make more money, why offer a renewal rate? There are folks lined up ready to pay the price of a “new” pass.


I think this is coming soon.  The price lever seems like the most obvious one, and it hasn't been pulled yet.


----------



## Madame

BeachClub2014 said:


> Interesting. No wiggle room for common sense in that worldview. Zero tolerance to accommodation on any policy rarely makes sense or works. And I would hate to be in a world where that was true. Just sayin' that a little common sense, understanding, and grace go a long way.


I like clear cut rules and fairness myself.  I have quite a bit of no nonsense common sense.  Understanding and grace would allow for ALL other family members to get an AP if the rest of the family has one IMHO.


----------



## BeachClub2014

Madame said:


> I like clear cut rules and fairness myself.  I have quite a bit of no nonsense common sense.  Understanding and grace would allow for ALL other family members to get an AP if the rest of the family has one IMHO.


I'm a big fan of clear rules and fairness, as well. Most people probably are. But "fairness" does not always equate to "sameness" but that's a different debate. 

It doesn't burn my bacon at all if Disney sells an AP to a 4-year old when the rest of the family already has one. Good for Disney. I applaud their common sense in that scenario.


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> They tell other family members no all the time.  There are a couple examples floating around here of all but one family member with an AP and that family member is unable to purchase.  I see no difference just bc it was free for your child and now it isn’t.



The difference is that a child under 3 wasn’t required to have any ticket so there would have been no reason to buy any ticket for them when the other passes were bought.

A family member who didn’t have one because either did could have bought it,,and saved it for a trip.

It’s like my DH...doesn’t  have it  We didn’t buy for him because he hasn’t been going with us. Was going to buy on for him first of year but the stopped sales. 

So, I do see it’s fair that someone with a 3 years gets it and my DH doesn’t because if my DH had been going he would have had it.


----------



## DonMacGregor

Sandisw said:


> The difference is that a child under 3 wasn’t required to have any ticket so there would have been no reason to buy any ticket for them when the other passes were bought.


I'm really struggling to understand why this even requires explanation...


----------



## Madame

BeachClub2014 said:


> I'm a big fan of clear rules and fairness, as well. Most people probably are. But "fairness" does not always equate to "sameness" but that's a different debate.
> 
> It doesn't burn my bacon at all if Disney sells an AP to a 4-year old when the rest of the family already has one. Good for Disney. I applaud their common sense in that scenario.


You do understand that *you* quoted *me* and implied I lack common sense, understanding and grace right?  I appreciate your point of view. 


Sandisw said:


> The difference is that a child under 3 wasn’t required to have any ticket so there would have been no reason to buy any ticket for them when the other passes were bought.


Understood.  I don’t agree with the free under 3 policy either.


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> You do understand that *you* quoted *me* and implied I lack common sense, understanding and grace right?  I appreciate your point of view.
> 
> Understood.  I don’t agree with the free under 3 policy either.



Yes, I get not everyone is happy with it but I guess I  understand why it’s done and why Disney kept sales open for that small subset of guests. 

For me, I see it the same as Disney keeping Pixie Passes in place for FL residents.


----------



## Madame

DonMacGregor said:


> I'm really struggling to understand why this even requires explanation...





Sandisw said:


> Yes, I get not everyone is happy with it but I guess I  understand why it’s done and why Disney kept sales open for that small subset of guests.
> 
> For me, I see it the same as Disney keeping Pixie Passes in place for FL residents.


I thought that had to do with some tax deal with the state?  It’s the position they’ve taken but it doesn’t seem equitable.   It would make sense if they hadn’t strongly suggested that the number of APs is capped which leads one to believe no new APs will be forthcoming until some APs lapse.  It’s creating IMO an advantage / disadvantage situation.  That’s what Disney does currently though, artificially cap to create FOMO.


----------



## BeachClub2014

Madame said:


> You do understand that *you* quoted *me* and implied I lack common sense, understanding and grace right?  I appreciate your point of view.
> 
> Understood.  I don’t agree with the free under 3 policy either.


Yes, I do understand that I quoted your post. I wasn't implying anything about you personally. 

My exact reference to common sense, understanding, and grace were more general, and I still believe that to be true. If you truly cannot see a difference between the two scenarios we were addressing, then there's not much else to say. The two scenarios are completely different.

I appreciate your point of view.


----------



## DonMacGregor

Madame said:


> I thought that had to do with some tax deal with the state?  It’s the position they’ve taken but it doesn’t seem equitable.   It would make sense if they hadn’t strongly suggested that the number of APs is capped which leads one to believe no new APs will be forthcoming until some APs lapse.  It’s creating IMO an advantage / disadvantage situation.  That’s what Disney does currently though, artificially cap to create FOMO.


I meant I’m struggling to understand why anyone would even question allowing a parent to purchase an AP for a child who has aged into requiring one.  I mean, it takes pedantry to a mind-numbingly new level.


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> I thought that had to do with some tax deal with the state?  It’s the position they’ve taken but it doesn’t seem equitable.   It would make sense if they hadn’t strongly suggested that the number of APs is capped which leads one to believe no new APs will be forthcoming until some APs lapse.  It’s creating IMO an advantage / disadvantage situation.  That’s what Disney does currently though, artificially cap to create FOMO.



Regardless of the reason, anyone who meets the requirement in gets one p 

For me, as long as they are consistent in applying what ever the rule is, it’s consistent and equitable. 

Inconsistent for me would be some people getting them and others not getting them with no rhyme or reason behind the decisions.


----------



## CarolMN

Back and forth is getting very personal.  If it continues, this thread will be closed.

From the posting guidelines:

"While we'd like to think that a Disney fan site is always lighthearted, there are times when there are disagreements. Let's face it, there are certain topics that can transform any of us into a raging "Donald Duck." When you sense this is happening, we ask that you step away from the discussion before it escalates into a fight. Just like Mom always said about fighting, we don't care who started the argument and we don't want it on the DIS. (Okay, she didn't say the part about the DIS, but you know what we mean.) No attacking others and no sarcasm please. Either will result in an infraction"


----------



## Skywalker3

Ms Bibbidi said:


> OK.  Here's an elephant in this room.  How many DVC owners got caught out without an annual pass because they were using the "bridging" technique and it was an "off-year?"  Bridging, as I understand it was buying an AP and then squeezing two annual trips into it; one close to the beginning of the current pass year and the other close to the end of the pass year (maybe with some in between.  Then, letting the AP lapse and waiting almost a year to buy a new one on their next trip -- in the next calendar year.  So when they were in the off year without an annual pass is when the sales of new annual passes shut down.
> 
> That bridging technique was obviously playing with Disney's profits on annual passes.  I have no idea how many DVC owners were doing that.


that's exactly what we've been doing since 2011, when we bought DVC, We've only renewed once. We'd get the AP, scheduled trips to cover 2 Star Wars weekends (RIP,) and then take a year off. Worked great. Then we started planning around Food/wine, and summers. Then blam! no more AP sales. Never in my wildest pessimistic dreams did we think we'd not get the chance to buy APs. We kick ourselves for not jumping on them during that brief time, Have already completely altered our travel this year. Due to ticket costs, DH and DS didn't even go on our May graduation trip w DD and me, and or our trip next month, DH got 7 days, and DS and I are only doing 2 days, all due to ticket cost. We 100% know we only bought a room, etc. but we also have no intention of doing frequent Disney trips w/o AP. We don't want to spend the money, or be limited by day tickets.  We'll re-evaluate everything in the coming year. will be renting out points, maybe going to HHI or Vero, or II. Have thoroughly enjoyed our 'year off' of Disney going to other theme parks, especially Universal, but we've enjoyed Universal since 2000. This was our first year doing APs for them, and have done 3 trips, and 1 more there next month. We are still hopeful APs might get offered in the next 3 wks, so we can upgrade tho.....


----------



## SL6827

So a tax deal is still why there are Pixie passes available??


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

SL6827 said:


> So a tax deal is still why there are Pixie passes available??


No.


----------



## RivShore

Madame said:


> Not really.   A new AP is a new AP.


How  about thinking of it this way - Since everyone in the family has an AP, think of the child as having one too, it just cost zero dollars. That family would have paid for the 2 year olds AP if required, no?  

For the family in your example, there was a reason one person did not have an AP and it was not because of their age, which is a completly uncontrollable reason. 

Really having a hard time seeing how the two are anywhere near similar situations.


----------



## Madame

DonMacGregor said:


> I meant I’m struggling to understand why anyone would even question allowing a parent to purchase an AP for a child who has aged into requiring one.  I mean, it takes pedantry to a mind-numbingly new level.


Because WDW has made *everything* into a competition.  ADRs, park reservations, tickets, APs.  And yes, I am your friendly neighbourhood pédant, lacking common sense, understanding and grace… and let us not forget my agenda.  Jesus wept.  You’d think I’d personally kicked someone’s puppy.


----------



## Madame

BeachClub2014 said:


> Yes, I do understand that I quoted your post. I wasn't implying anything about you personally.
> 
> My exact reference to common sense, understanding, and grace were more general, and I still believe that to be true. If you truly cannot see a difference between the two scenarios we were addressing, then there's not much else to say. The two scenarios are completely different.
> 
> I appreciate your point of view.


I’m ESL - the manner in which you are copying my (what probably seems bizarre to you) turns of phrase seems mocking.  If my English seems jarring and stilted it’s not sarcasm


----------



## SL6827

Ms Bibbidi said:


> No.


Then why is there?


----------



## Madame

RivShore said:


> How  about thinking of it this way - Since everyone in the family has an AP, think of the child as having one too, it just cost zero dollars. That family would have paid for the 2 year olds AP if required, no?
> 
> For the family in your example, there was a reason one person did not have an AP and it was not because of their age, which is a completly uncontrollable reason.
> 
> Really having a hard time seeing how the two are anywhere near similar situations.


But they can buy day tickets like the rest of us have to.  If they are just turning 3 those families had the exact same opportunity to purchase last fall in anticipation of the child needing an AP.  They didn’t.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

Madame said:


> I don’t have an agenda.  I agree with you more often than not    They are doing just that.  Family all have APs.  Newly turned 3 year old gets approved for first time AP.  This site has gotten unreal in the last year or so.  I’ll refrain from pushing my agenda on you going forward



'Agenda' was a poor choice of words and I apologize for that.


----------



## DonMacGregor

So let me understand this.

The Smith Family all have AP’s. Their eldest son, Big Jimmy, is 22, is an adult, and has been away at college and hasn’t had an AP in four years. He suddenly gets his Disney MOJO back, but Disney won’t sell him a pass. If he doesn’t get a pass, he has options. He could get daily tickets, or he just goes back to not going to Disney like he has been, stays at home, whatever. He hasn’t been attending the parks, so selling him an AP (or any other ticket media) increases the park attendance (however microscopically).

The Jones Family also all have AP’s. Their youngest, Little Jimmy, just turned 4, is still riding in a stroller, may or may not be fully potty trained, and has never needed an AP because he wasn’t old enough, and Disney wouldn’t have sold him one anyway. Four years ago he was a zygote. If he doesn’t get a pass, his parents now have to buy him a daily ticket every time they go, or cancel all their other AP’s. Little Jimmy has to go where mom and dad go. Since it’s likely they’d buy a ticket every time they go anyway, and he isn’t adding to the overall park attendance (because he’s already been going every time the family goes) selling him an AP is just lines on a balance sheet. 

Or they could just leave him in the car with a fan and some bottled water.

This is the inequality we’re debating?


----------



## Madame

DonMacGregor said:


> So let me understand this.
> 
> The Smith Family all have AP’s. Their eldest son, Big Jimmy, is 22, is an adult, and has been away at college and hasn’t had an AP in four years. He suddenly gets his Disney MOJO back, but Disney won’t sell him a pass. If he doesn’t get a pass, he has options. He could get daily tickets, or he just goes back to not going to Disney like he has been, stays at home, whatever. He hasn’t been attending the parks, so selling him an AP (or any other ticket media) increases the park attendance (however microscopically).
> 
> The Jones Family also all have AP’s. Their youngest, Little Jimmy, just turned 4, is still riding in a stroller, May or may not be fully potty trained, and has never needed an AP because he wasn’t old enough, and Disney wouldn’t have sold him one anyway. Four years ago he was a zygote. If he doesn’t get a pass, his parents now have to buy him a daily ticket every time they go, or cancel all their other AP’s. Little Jimmy has to go where mom and dad go. Since it’s likely they’d buy a ticket every time they go anyway, and he isn’t adding to the overall park attendance (because he’s already been going every time the family goes) selling him an AP is just lines on a balance sheet. Or they could just leave him in the car with a fan and some bottled water.
> 
> This is the inequality we’re debating?


He is contributing to APs not going on sale for the rest of us if its true no more will be released until a number have been allowed to lapse.  His parents could have bought him an AP last fall in anticipation of his birthday.  They didn’t.  Some of us didn’t buy thinking too that we could purchase at a later date.  We should both be out of luck and have an equal opportunity to buy if sales reopen.


----------



## DonMacGregor

Madame said:


> He is contributing to APs not going on sale for the rest of us if its true no more will be released until a number have been allowed to lapse.  His parents could have bought him an AP last fall in anticipation of his birthday.  They didn’t.  Some of us didn’t buy thinking too that we could purchase at a later date.  We should both be out of luck and have an equal opportunity to buy if sales reopen.


So I do understand it.


----------



## Madame

DonMacGregor said:


> So I do understand it.


I guess so.  I also guess you missed Carol’s post on sarcasm.  I don’t need you to agree with me but if you could refrain from mocking me I’d be appreciative.


----------



## Sandisw

Let’s move the conversation on from the discussion  regarding Disneys current policy that those who turn 3 can still buy a pass as long as their parents have them.

This way, we can keep this thread open!

I still think we are going to see changes at some point and that the AP of yesteryear will be no more and that whatever does come back will much more restricted with X days and the ones that are more unlimited will be so much money thst demand will be small.

My prediction..because I want it..and  is an onsite only yearly pass up to X days that meets the needs of 99% of DVC and cash guests. 

And that FL passes are what makes sense for those guests and the two don’t need to be the same!!

This assumes that they won’t sell new passes as they exist.


----------



## WilsonFlyer

We all know the ceiling is arbitrary anyway. Let's not lose focus here. For 30+ years, there was never a time when you couldn't buy one if you had the dead presidents to purchase it. 

This is all about control, and before somebody says it, I would remind them that disney themselves have said exactly this. What is not so clear is the entirety of what exactly they are trying to control. As is usually the case, there's what we know, and everything we don't know. I suspect there's a lot more of the latter going on here than any of us know. ;-)


----------



## Sandisw

WilsonFlyer said:


> We all know the ceiling is arbitrary anyway. Let's not lose focus here. For 30+ years, there was never a time when you couldn't buy one if you had the dead presidents to purchase it.
> 
> This is all about control, and before somebody says it, I would remind them that disney themselves have said exactly this. What is not so clear is the entirety of what exactly they are trying to control. As is usually the case, there's what we know, and everything we don't know. I suspect there's a lot more of the latter going on here than any of us know. ;-)



They certainly have made it clear why they want things the way they want them, and I get it when you view it through their eyes.  Now, I think they could get what they want and still give people what they need in terms of some level of AP....but, as you say, they obviously have lots going on behind the scenes that we don't know..


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

WilsonFlyer said:


> We all know the ceiling is arbitrary anyway. Let's not lose focus here. …
> 
> This is all about control, and before somebody says it, I would remind them that disney themselves have said exactly this.


I am not so sure the cap on APs distributed is all that arbitrary.  I know, this limiting the number is new.  But I have my suspicions that it is a calculated number.

Passholders used to be about 34% of the crowd.  Disney cut attendance caps by about 17%.  

There is a thread running through this that shows a paradigm shift.  Passholders are now being treated as “space available” (“Space-A”) guests.  Since passholders are Space-A guests, the place they made the 17% attendance cut was to sell only half the usual number of annual passes.


----------



## keishashadow

Sandisw said:


> For me, as long as they are consistent in applying what ever the rule is, it’s consistent and equitable.
> 
> Inconsistent for me would be some people getting them and others not getting them with no rhyme or reason behind the decisions.


Disney fans in the know have a long standing tradition of if you don’t hear the answer you want the first time, hang up  & rinse/repeat   

IMO pixie dust needs not to apply in this situation. The perk needs to be distributed in accordance with whatever rules they set forth


Sandisw said:


> My prediction..because I want it..and is an onsite only yearly pass up to X days that meets the needs of 99% of DVC and cash guests.


I’ve a real problem with the concept of on-site only guests being able to utilize their APs & an arbitrary number of days allotted for all members no matter how many points they own or what accommodation they book 

Currently, availability is still tight for on-site rooms.  Many DVC members still report being unable to find room at the inn (cash or on points). 

I’ve had it happen at popular type/resort/times of year (when talking studio units) & even when we are talking 11 mo window

We visit our happy place often, working that AP.  I stretch our points to make it happen via booking studios. When our points are exhausted, look to WBC or DTD hiltons.  Not above revisiting the values for shorter stays, if price is reasonable. 

For a trip booked ‘spur-of-the moment’ a month out earlier this year, we wound up paying $250+ APH a night for standard room.  Ouch.  It was the only on-site resort with availability for our dates.  

My own version of blue-skying any version of upcoming passes re “X” Number of nights per year, factors in a few variables, including:

*how many points an owner has in hand, then prorating the X factor to cover booking studios in the lowest seasons

& 

*Allowing for at least the addition of another few weeks booked on-site thru CRO 

Do I expect it to eventually roll out that way, of course not


----------



## BeachClub2014

Madame said:


> I’m ESL - the manner in which you are copying my (what probably seems bizarre to you) turns of phrase seems mocking.  If my English seems jarring and stilted it’s not sarcasm


Not mocking you or anyone here on the DIS. I don't agree with your perspective, as you don't mine. And that's okay for both of us.


----------



## Sandisw

keishashadow said:


> Disney fans in the know have a long standing tradition of if you don’t hear the answer you want the first time, hang up  & rinse/repeat
> 
> IMO pixie dust needs not to apply in this situation. The perk needs to be distributed in accordance with whatever rules they set forth
> 
> I’ve a real problem with the concept of on-site only guests being able to utilize their APs & an arbitrary number of days allotted for all members no matter how many points they own or what accommodation they book
> 
> Currently, availability is still tight for on-site rooms.  Many DVC members still report being unable to find room at the inn (cash or on points).
> 
> I’ve had it happen at popular type/resort/times of year (when talking studio units) & even when we are talking 11 mo window
> 
> We visit our happy place often, working that AP.  I stretch our points to make it happen via booking studios. When our points are exhausted, look to WBC or DTD hiltons.  Not above revisiting the values for shorter stays, if price is reasonable.
> 
> For a trip booked ‘spur-of-the moment’ a month out earlier this year, we wound up paying $250+ APH a night for standard room.  Ouch.  It was the only on-site resort with availability for our dates.
> 
> My own version of blue-skying any version of upcoming passes re “X” Number of nights per year, factors in a few variables, including:
> 
> *how many points an owner has in hand, then prorating the X factor to cover booking studios in the lowest seasons
> 
> &
> 
> *Allowing for at least the addition of another few weeks booked on-site thru CRO
> 
> Do I expect it to eventually roll out that way, of course not



An AP is simply a type ticket and it’s not tied to DVC.  So number of points someone owns has no bearing

There really are two types of guests that go into the parks…those staying onsite…cash and DVC…and those not…locals and others staying at hotels in the area.

The current structure of the AP is a one size fits all approach…and because of that..Disney has to consider that every pass holder has the ability to visit 300 plus days.

So, part of the limit on passes is because of that structure.  Coming up with a yearly pass that is tied to onsite opens up more opportunity, whether your DVC or a cash guest..to have some level of savings over multiday tickets but not as many days as a traditional AP has…which Disney doesn’t currently want any additional ones  floating around.

Right now, those that don’t have one, have nothing.  But, wouldn’t be nice to have something in between?

I posted early in the thread but say they came up with a yearly pass that allows 50 days in the park…forget about onsite or offsite then…for the same price as the Sorcerer, and blocked out dates for the holi days.

Instead of one person getting a pass that allows them access those 300 plus days, you can now sell six people that yearly pass, and still know it will gain only 300 admissions for that AP bucket. 

Or 100 days on a pass..which gets 3 people passes instead of one.

If I am only using my Sorcerer pass, on average 25 to 30 days per year, someone else is not getting one right now because I have one that can be used so much more.

Benefit is to Disney is that they make more money.  Now, I get that to charge the same for these types of passes as they do now for a regular AP will cause complaints.  But it’s still less expensive than tickets which is the only option.

So, it seems like it would be great to find a product that works for FL residents and those who stay onsite better suited to each groups needs.

I certainly would rather see some type of compromise pass than have them suspended longer or indefinitely and be left with only the multi day tickets as an option for each trip.


----------



## MalorieA

CarolMN said:


> Back and forth is getting very personal.  If it continues, this thread will be closed.
> 
> From the posting guidelines:
> 
> "While we'd like to think that a Disney fan site is always lighthearted, there are times when there are disagreements. Let's face it, there are certain topics that can transform any of us into a raging "Donald Duck." When you sense this is happening, we ask that you step away from the discussion before it escalates into a fight. Just like Mom always said about fighting, we don't care who started the argument and we don't want it on the DIS. (Okay, she didn't say the part about the DIS, but you know what we mean.) No attacking others and no sarcasm please. Either will result in an infraction"


Yes please let’s kumbaya, people. Because this thread may be the first place you hear about APs returning. It was the first notice I got during “the glitch”


----------



## Ms Bibbidi

Sandisw said:


> An AP is simply a type ticket and it’s not tied to DVC.  So number of points someone owns has no bearing
> 
> There really are two types of guests that go into the parks…those staying onsite…cash and DVC…and those not…locals and others staying at hotels in the area.
> 
> The current structure of the AP is a one size fits all approach…and because of that..Disney has to consider that every pass holder has the ability to visit 300 plus days.
> 
> So, part of the limit on passes is because of that structure.  Coming up with a yearly pass that is tied to onsite opens up more opportunity, whether your DVC or a cash guest..to have some level of savings over multiday tickets but not as many days as a traditional AP has…which Disney doesn’t currently want any additional ones  floating around.
> 
> Right now, those that don’t have one, have nothing.  But, wouldn’t be nice to have something in between?
> 
> I posted early in the thread but say they came up with a yearly pass that allows 50 days in the park…forget about onsite or offsite then…for the same price as the Sorcerer, and blocked out dates for the holi days.
> 
> Instead of one person getting a pass that allows them access those 300 plus days, you can now sell six people that yearly pass, and still know it will gain only 300 admissions for that AP bucket.
> 
> Or 100 days on a pass..which gets 3 people passes instead of one.
> 
> If I am only using my Sorcerer pass, on average 25 to 30 days per year, someone else is not getting one right now because I have one that can be used so much more.
> 
> Benefit is to Disney is that they make more money.  Now, I get that to charge the same for these types of passes as they do now for a regular AP will cause complaints.  But it’s still less expensive than tickets which is the only option.
> 
> So, it seems like it would be great to find a product that works for FL residents and those who stay onsite better suited to each groups needs.
> 
> I certainly would rather see some type of compromise pass than have them suspended longer or indefinitely and be left with only the multi day tickets as an option for each trip.


Nope.  Nope.  Nope.  I do not think that will work, Sandi.  Not because one size fits all,or DVC people do not deserve a pass that accommodates and pairs nicely with DVC ownership. 

The reason is because if Disney said an $899 Sorcerer gets you 50 days of parkhopper entry, then ticketed customers would look at it and say a day in the park is only worth $17.98.  Right now, a single day park hopper is $174.00 IIRC.  Disney cannot advertise a per day price like that that is only about 10% of the per day ticket price.  It would crash their ticket sales.  Mega bad public relations!  The beauty of annual passes is everybody knows people who buy them use very few days per year overall.  Advertising 50 days might also have a strange effect of people buying them and actually trying to come 50 days “to get their money’s worth” when normally they might come 20 days.  The vast majority anyway who buy annual passes maybe use around 20 days or so.   The idea of 365 days is the customer chooses which unblocked-out days — not all or nearly all of the 365 days.  It is a scheduling offer, not a specific quantity of days for attendance.  They may have a handful of outliers who come most days, but that is pretty weird.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Sandisw said:


> An AP is simply a type ticket and it’s not tied to DVC.  So number of points someone owns has no bearing
> 
> There really are two types of guests that go into the parks…those staying onsite…cash and DVC…and those not…locals and others staying at hotels in the area.
> 
> The current structure of the AP is a one size fits all approach…and because of that..Disney has to consider that every pass holder has the ability to visit 300 plus days.
> 
> So, part of the limit on passes is because of that structure.  Coming up with a yearly pass that is tied to onsite opens up more opportunity, whether your DVC or a cash guest..to have some level of savings over multiday tickets but not as many days as a traditional AP has…which Disney doesn’t currently want any additional ones  floating around.
> 
> Right now, those that don’t have one, have nothing.  But, wouldn’t be nice to have something in between?
> 
> I posted early in the thread but say they came up with a yearly pass that allows 50 days in the park…forget about onsite or offsite then…for the same price as the Sorcerer, and blocked out dates for the holi days.
> 
> Instead of one person getting a pass that allows them access those 300 plus days, you can now sell six people that yearly pass, and still know it will gain only 300 admissions for that AP bucket.
> 
> Or 100 days on a pass..which gets 3 people passes instead of one.
> 
> If I am only using my Sorcerer pass, on average 25 to 30 days per year, someone else is not getting one right now because I have one that can be used so much more.
> 
> Benefit is to Disney is that they make more money.  Now, I get that to charge the same for these types of passes as they do now for a regular AP will cause complaints.  But it’s still less expensive than tickets which is the only option.
> 
> So, it seems like it would be great to find a product that works for FL residents and those who stay onsite better suited to each groups needs.
> 
> I certainly would rather see some type of compromise pass than have them suspended longer or indefinitely and be left with only the multi day tickets as an option for each trip.


No. Disney has the data and can run the algorithms. 
They do not plan on an AP holder visiting 300 days. 
Same logic hotels and airlines can oversell.


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## lowlight

Maistre Gracey said:


> No. Disney has the data and can run the algorithms.
> They do not plan on an AP holder visiting 300 days.
> Same logic hotels and airlines can oversell.



People always underestimate how much data companies actually have on their customers, and how they use it in predictive analytics models.  Disney isn't guessing on anything.  I imagine they are staying mum on AP's because the world economy is a toe hair away from imploding and they want to keep their options open for when travel inevitably slows again, and they aren't losing anything by doing so.  With that said, I think they are wrong on AP's and their models can't see the collateral damage, but they get paid millions and I'm some chump on the web so we'll see who is right.


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## Maistre Gracey

Brian Noble said:


> There is zero chance that the Walt Disney Company would consider DVC owners "residents," because residents are entitled to vote. And, at least for now, the company still controls its very own public government in which those residents would reside.
> 
> But they don't need to consider DVC Members FL Residents to allow them to buy the Pixie Dust pass. They can just decide to do it. And they haven't.


Yup, they could do that regardless of residency. 
But I don’t think they will. A pass with extensive blackout dates, including weekends, could drastically skew DVC booking patterns.


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## Mexacajun

Madame said:


> He is contributing to APs not going on sale for the rest of us if its true no more will be released until a number have been allowed to lapse.  His parents could have bought him an AP last fall in anticipation of his birthday.  They didn’t.  Some of us didn’t buy thinking too that we could purchase at a later date.  We should both be out of luck and have an equal opportunity to buy if sales reopen.


This is the most ludicrous thing I have see on these boards and I have seen some ludicrous things. The idea of denying a family of this is mind bending to me. The lack of empathy on this topic is even more confusing to me. Society is in a very sad place at the moment. 

I don’t have an AP. I desperately want one. I don’t feel entitled to one. I have zero issue with the 3 year old even if that means me not getting one sooner (because guess what, I am not that self absorbed). And all my kids are over 3 so this will never benefit me.


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## Maistre Gracey

Mexacajun said:


> This is the most ludicrous thing I have see on these boards and I have seen some ludicrous things. The idea of denying a family of this is mind bending to me. The lack of empathy on this topic is even more confusing to me. Society is in a very sad place at the moment.
> 
> I don’t have an AP. I desperately want one. I don’t feel entitled to one. I have zero issue with the 3 year old even if that means me not getting one sooner (because guess what, I am not that self absorbed). And all my kids are over 3 so this will never benefit me.


Not so sure here. A family of five wants five AP’s, but has only four and can’t get a fifth. 

Yet another family of five with the youngest turning three cannot get any.

I think THAT’s what is ludicrous. 
Obviously folks here have different opinions.


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## ziravan

We went through a period where DW wasn’t going as much as the rest of us so the kids and I had our 3 APs but she didn’t have one. I got a funny feeling and used credit to buy her an AP out of cycle to our upcoming trips, “just in case”. 

Turns out to have been a great move.

It would be driving me nuts to be on the outside looking in at APs right now and I feel for all of you in that situation.

I was in the parks in 2003 and I think Disney has forgotten how AP and DVC holders held attendance together enough to keep things afloat during that time. I distinctly remember visiting Typhoon Lagoon one year where the CMs outnumbered the guests. 

I believe that deserves some show of appreciation - if not from legacy then because some slowdown will happen again. It’s the nature of business and why many companies hedge expectations in some way or another.

For all their prognostications, Disney has been short-sighted before.


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## Madame

Mexacajun said:


> This is the most ludicrous thing I have see on these boards and I have seen some ludicrous things. The idea of denying a family of this is mind bending to me. The lack of empathy on this topic is even more confusing to me. Society is in a very sad place at the moment.
> 
> I don’t have an AP. I desperately want one. I don’t feel entitled to one. I have zero issue with the 3 year old even if that means me not getting one sooner (because guess what, I am not that self absorbed). And all my kids are over 3 so this will never benefit me.


Could you stop making it personal please?  Since when are personal attacks (even when implied) allowed on the Dis? I have a tonne of empathy. 

It’s clear some of you were not around these boards during the lockoff debacle.  I was a player here and irl pushing back against lockoff inflation, even though it personally cost my family many points as we stood to have a cheaper 2 bd had the inflation proceeded. 

We preserved, DVC backed down, the entire membership benefits (well smaller room bookers).  I have a nuanced view on this particular topic.  I respect you have a different view.

Your hyperbole, however, is not warranted.  I’m not suggesting we deny a child a basic need.   I’m not even suggesting we deny them entry into the park - there are tickets available.

I suggest we take @Sandisw ’s advice and move on from the topic.  It was a throw away comment on my part, but apparently it was a monstrous one akin to denying a child sustenance


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## Ms Bibbidi

This  is going to be .

Being attacked, even on a forum, just for having an opinion difference hurts. 

Madame, I appreciate your posts.  Please do not go away. 

These days there are plenty of people trying to impose their social choices, cultural preferences or rationality on others.  Even about matters involving children.  Just read the news.  I am so glad my life is way beyond children right now.  The more I read the news the more my DH and I withdraw into ourselves.  Disney World is still our Happy Place. 

Disney has policies.  Whatever they are we cannot change.  Yes, that is the effect of this one.  Do not think about it.  If it truly bothers you, thinking about It will only make you sad.  Just be glad that what they did and the character of the new passes is starting to dawn on us.  If we are informed we can better make our decisions.  We find that information and share it here.  So try especially hard to not say things that will lock this thread. Ok?


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## DeeBee3

I've been reading this thread from the beginning. Here's my takeaway - some of you have a LOT of vacation time or are retired! And I am so happy for you. 

So, if Disney corporate is reading this, I would love to have a pass or ticket discount that helps out those of us who may just go 10-14 days per year. The problem in my case is the limit on needing to use the tickets within a certain time period. I desire a ticket where I have X days and can use them within 12 months. Or something akin to that.

I am not knowledgeable enough to add anything more to the detailed discussion.


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## Ms Bibbidi

Ok.  New issue in AP sales.   

Disney says they limited the number is annual passes distributed.  As many as 400,000 to 500,000 former annual passholders are waiting to buy passes.  That is probably without considering any new growth.  Imagine what it is going to be like when they open new sales again.


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## sheilafri

Sandisw said:


> I think many got caught off guard in 2020 for sure and had always waited until the last minutes,
> 
> Then, when they came back in 2021, some jumped on them right away and others waited, even though they did announce they could suspend sales at any times in the future.
> 
> My initial plan was to buy a few new vouches  as back up for DH and one of my DDs as well as myself.l.even though I have one…but had held off because of the one year expiration that was put into place in 2021…and, of course,  sale stopped before I could get it.
> 
> So, I snoozed and I lost.  They don’t have them.  I do think it tells anyone that if the go on sale again, you better jump on it…I know I will.


I appreciate your attitude. It seems like most actions will result in some winners and some losers.  All one can do is to use their best judgment and hope it works out.


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## BeachClub2014

Ms Bibbidi said:


> Ok.  New issue in AP sales.
> 
> Disney says they limited the number is annual passes distributed.  As many as 400,000 to 500,000 former annual passholders are waiting to buy passes.  That is probably without considering any new growth.  Imagine what it is going to be like when they open new sales again.


I would imagine if Disney re-opens AP sales based on current configuration and price points, then the competition for those passes will be intense. Would there likely be some virtual queue or lottery for the ability to purchase? I dunno.

If Disney dramatically increases the pricing, I wonder how many of those 400,000 - 500,000 (and renewal people) drop off due to the new price or configuration.


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