# Sad Story from One Who Trusted without Checking!



## DMKEDM

First, I must concede that I acted monumentally stupidly in this sad (expensive) story...arguably it's entirely my fault for being so unqualifiedly trusting. Since trust is a huge element in rent/transfer transactions, I thought it might help others to hear my painful experience...

Just yesterday, I impulsively jumped on an R/T board offer to rent 160 BCW points (I've talked to our mods, who are WONDERFUL...very sympathetic!--and they remind me I must not "name names")...I PM'ed the poster who offered the points, providing my phone number and email address.

The poster (a "she") called me almost immediately (within 10 minutes); I explained what I wanted and we agreed a rental of points would be hard to work out (I wanted them for 13 months from now, and ressies can't be made til the 11-month-out mark)...so we discussed doing a points transfer instead.

We agreed to that, and we agreed to a price. We discussed "trust" and how best to protect both of us. The poster wanted me to wire half the money ($800) via Western Union...I suggested alternatives, mostly because I've never used Western Union before and didn't know how to do it (turns out it's remarkably easy, but I didn't know that then.) First (of many) mistakes...someone insisting on the use of Western Union is a red flag, I now know...

I spent the next hour running around...first I found the closest Western Union spot, went there to learn how to use the system...they require cash, so I had to run to the bank to get the money...at each step I called (by prearrangement) the seller/poster, to let her know my progress...due to my work schedule, we had to finish up within 90 minutes, or defer further activity til after 3 yesterday afternoon...we both wanted (I thought) to complete the transaction (first half the money from me to her, then a joint call to MS to transfer the points, then a transfer of the other half of the money from me to her).

(Pause for one small brief moment of sanity: I almost wired the whole amount--to save myself a trip later on to wire the rest...fortunately, I stopped myself from that "convenient" course of action!)...

I called after I had successfully wired the $800 to tell her the money was on its way...she told me she'd just discovered she'd lost her wallet, which contained her ID, and needed more info from me to claim the money w/out an ID...Second mistake. I should have stopped things right then (if I had, I'd have been out only the cost of the wire transfer--which was significant--almost $70, and a "refund fee"--much less than the $870 I actually lost)...anyway, I didn't give her any of my transaction or personal info (which is another small consolation), but I did agree to call Western Union to do a "test question" so she could claim the money w/out an ID...

I did this via my cell phone, while I was on the phone w/her (and she was at the Western Union station on her end, in NY)...Western Union told me she'd gotten the money before we got off the phone.

She told me she'd call me back w/in 5 minutes to do the Disney call (at this point, I had about 20 minutes left before I had to leave)...

She didn't call back. I worried a bit, but not all that much...we'd agreed that we'd do the Disney call at 3 yesterday afternoon if the Western Union/bank business took longer than the amount of time I had yesterday morning. I specifically asked if she'd be available then and she said yes. I called her as I was leaving to tell her I'd call her around 3 to complete our transaction...the first of many "no answers" from her from that point forward...

I called her again at 2:45, no answer. And again at 3. No answer. And then again at 15-30 minute intervals til MS closed at 5. And then one more time yesterday evening. No response. I sent her a PM. No answer. 

I've checked her post...several people have responded to her offer, saying they've PM'ed her. Several did so after my dealings with her. As far as I can tell (no confirmation of having received my PM), she hasn't checked back on the R/T board since yesterday morning.

In all fairness, I guess it's possible something happened to her within 5 minutes of picking up the money I wired and that she will call me ... but somehow it doesn't seem likely at this point.

Another mistake: I want these points for November, 2007...now that I'm taking time to think this through, I can see a problem with this, too...I guess I could bank current year points to use in November 2007, but she told me, when I questioned her about timing, that she'd transfer next-year-points. I accepted that. But now that I think about it, how can someone transfer "next year" points? More evidence of my own stupidity in this. And another red flag.

And yet another mistake: I never looked at her post count til later...it's very, very low (I'm afraid to say how low for fear I will inadvertently break Disboards rules about not naming names...I don't want to post so much that I ID the person, contrary to the rules, by mistake)...

So, the lesson (which cost me $870 to learn!): Yes, we must trust each other...but pay attention to "warning signs" and take more than a couple of minutes of friendly conversation before handing over cash. 

I'm certainly not holding this against anyone (other than myself and the person who took my money!)...the Disboards folks have been very sympathetic (and "authorized"/encouraged me to post this story in the hopes it might help someone else who might be teetering on an impulse buy as I did)...

Fortunately, the loss won't break my personal bank...it hurts and it'll mean some extra tuna fish over steak for a while...but at least I didn't "bet the mortgage!"

Sure hope this doesn't happen to anyone else!


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## TravelingJen24

I am so sorry that this happened to you. I hope that she contacts you, but if she doesn't is there any recourse that you can take. I don't know much about these type of situations, but it would seem that the board would be able to kick her off so that it doesn't happen to anyone else. Good luck and I wish you luck on this situation.


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## DMKEDM

Whether Disboards will take action is up to them...they make it very clear that they provide the R/T board as a service to us, and are not at all able to/interested in refereeing disputes among users...and I don't blame them a mite for that!

This case seems clear-cut to me...but I'm sure most people who feel wronged feel that way.

I'm content to let Disboards do (or not do) as they find appropriate. I do understand how stupid I was with this...there were SO many red flags/warning signs! 

Thanks for the sympathy...I really appreciate it...somehow the "sting" of having behaved so stupidly is lessened by how nice first the Disboards mods and now you were/are upon hearing my sad story!

Pixie dust to all "good" renters...I'm quite certain there are many in whom my trust would have been well placed...and I know a renter can trust me! So I'll try not to let this experience sour me on the process; instead I hope I'll learn from it!


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## zurgswife

Thanks for posting.  I'm glad it didn't break you but sad that it happened.

Great warning for others...


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## ZipaDeeDooDah

Wow, you are a good person, I would be so angry! I admire your restraint and humbleness. I hope nothing major has happened with the OP and that it was all a big mistake and she will get back to you soon to straighten this out.


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## DMKEDM

Thanks...I'm sure I'll be angry when I get over feeling just plain dumb! Right now I'm angrier at myself than at at anyone else...

I, too, hope the renter/poster gets back to me w/some kind of explanation of why she "disappeared" yesterday...things DO go wrong (computers crash, phone systems go down--both of those things have happened to me in the last 6 months)...if that happens you can be sure I'll post to "confess" my too-quick assumption that I've been scammed...

But for now, it just looks to me like I'm better off accepting the fact that I'm highly likely a "mark" who's been scammed ... now, on to getting over it and going back to enjoying the thought that we're going to Disney for T-giving (on my own points!)...

Happy day and pixie dust to all of us!


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## Olaf

I am so sorry for you, and thanks for posting your story as a warning to others.  

I hope you're contacting the authorities about this.  Probably isn't a thing they can do, but it's worth trying.  I really don't know how people like that live with themselves.


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## ZipaDeeDooDah

DMKEDM - Wishing you a great Thanksgiving trip!!!


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## bobbiwoz

I am sorry this happened.  

Thank you for the warnings.  I don't know if I would have recognized "red flags" if I was living through the experience.  

Bobbi


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## DisneyFreaks

I just read your post and I feel absolutely heartbroken for you. I know how sick I would be if this happened to me. I guess it could happen to any of us who trust just a little too much. I will pray that she may possibly contact you soon. And I hope your 2007 trip is the best trip you have ever had. Thank you so much for taking the time to warn the rest of us.


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## DMKEDM

You folks are wonderful. Thanks so much for the sympathy. It's really making me feel better...


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## DVCJones

OMG!!! I was getting sick to my stomach reading your post. How awful!!!! Don't be too hard on yourself. There are a lot of dishonest people in the world and you are a victim of one of them. I am so sorry this has happened to you. I really hope there is something that can be done to fix this!! 

It is a shame that this person has tarnished the R/T experience.

 I hope things work out for you! Good luck!


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## jade1

Do you have the email address?


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## DMKEDM

The email address? For the poster? No...I used PM to contact her, and then what turned out to be a cell phone number thereafter. I have a name, her cell phone number (which shows her name on my caller ID and it's the same name she gave me), the city where she picked up the money I wired to her, her screen name here on Disboards, and that's it...


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## Dina

Wow!!!! That's terrible!!  I am so sorry to hear that you have gone through this!!!  I also felt sick for you reading your story.  I truly hope that some how you're able to recover your money.  That's horrible.

This may be a really stupid question-- but could you contact the police in the city where the poster used the Western Union???  Won't they handle fraudulence??


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## lizziepooh

Thanks for posting.  I don't think I would have recognized the red flags either.  It all would have sounded logical to me.


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## Tine731

I am just sick. Its a shame you can't out her on this board. Does she even own a DVC?  Thank you for sharing your story. I would have not noticed the red flags and just like you I would have thought about sending all the money. I have learned a lesson here also.


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## simzac

I too feel really bad for the OP, what a terrible ordeal to go thru. I feel you should contact the police in the town where the money was picked up and give them the info you have, maybe they will be able to do something for you. Good luck.


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## jkevinmcg

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> The email address? For the poster? No...I used PM to contact her, and then what turned out to be a cell phone number thereafter. I have a name, her cell phone number (which shows her name on my caller ID and it's the same name she gave me), the city where she picked up the money I wired to her, her screen name here on Disboards, and that's it...



You should report this immediately to Western Union, if you haven't already. You might be able to find someone there who can help.  It seems a lot of on line fraud that occurs uses WU as the middle man.  I'm sure someone there would want to tout a success story.  Also, having a cell phone and a name might be enough for the authorities to actually find this person.  DO NOT GIVE UP ON THIS!   I wish you luck and perservearance in pursuing this and like everyone else on this board, I applaud your restraint.   Try this site, reverserecords org, and do a reverse cell phone lookup. Since I have so few posts, it would not let me put a link in here.  There is a dot between them.  We will be watching and hoping that you get some satisfaction.

Kevin


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## jade1

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> The email address? For the poster? No...I used PM to contact her, and then what turned out to be a cell phone number thereafter. I have a name, her cell phone number (which shows her name on my caller ID and it's the same name she gave me), the city where she picked up the money I wired to her, her screen name here on Disboards, and that's it...



I think they will contact you and come through. If you have this much information and just maybe you could read the other posts and see if they ever sent thier email address to another member or maybe that other member actually dealt with them in the past and can provide more information-*I doubt they would risk a felony over this.*


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## Olaf

It's very possible that the name he has is phony.  Especially since she didn't want to show her ID to pick up the money.


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## DMKEDM

Another big thank you to all who've posted their sympathy and ideas since my last thank you!

A couple of comments: first, about going to the police: the thought has crossed my mind! But I think it's too soon (even if it does lessen the chances of successful resolution). It's still very possible the renter/poster isn't intending to scam me, but rather something happened to her that prevented her from contacting me...I'm going to give it til at least Monday, and maybe longer, depending on what develops between now & then...I think accusing someone of theft/fraud/scamming is serious and while it sure feels like that is what has happened (and the odds are it is), there's still enough of a chance that there's an explanation that to bring the police in at this stage doesn't feel right...

Also, contacting Western Union doesn't seem right to me, either...they tried to verify the identity of the person picking up the money...they made us jump thru a number of hoops...I believe they acted honorably and reasonably...I guess it would be worth checking to see if they maintain a list of people who use their services who do provable scams...but they certainly did nothing even remotely wrong in this transaction...

Bottom line: it's possible (altho not probable) that the renter/poster will get in touch w/me and there will be an acceptable explanation...right now, I would just like to get my money back (and I'm SO thankful I lost only half of it and not all of it!)...and unfortunately, I don't see any real way for that to happen...for her to refund my money I'd have to give her more information about me than I'm willing to give her at this point...either that or she'd have to use Western Union to wire the money back to me. It doesn't seem real hopeful.

Anyway, again and again, thanks for the sympathy and support...I too wish we had some system whereby we could post successful renting transaction results...sort of like ebay's feedback system...but we don't and I for one don't have enough "nerve" to ask the terrific mods of this board to start up something like that! I don't blame them for not wanting (not be able) to mediate disputes...and I don't want to lose the R/T board, either...I'd rather just "take my lumps" and get past it...pausing to note how wonderful this cyber-community is...you-all really have made me feel loads better...


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## Olaf

The sooner, the better.  If there's a video camera on the register at Western Union, it's possible that it recorded her.  However, those are typically on a loop.  The Disboard people might be able to help you with an IP address.


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## Patricia721

I feel so bad for you! I think the earlier poster's advice to contact Western Union is excellent. They may have a fraud division that can help you. I think it's certainly worth a try & might prevent this or a similar experience from happening to someone else. The "red flags" do make this look like a scam.

I hope you hear from her & this turns out OK for you. Please keep us posted!


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## castleri

Have you contacted the opther peole you said responded to her offer?  They may have some info or at least appreciate a heads up from you if they are considering dealing with her.  Do hope this all works out and that it is just some unfortunate set of circumstances that kept her from getting back to you and not really a fraudulent action.


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## DMKEDM

Not sure if it's within the rules to contact others who posted on her R/T offer thread...I'll check w/the mods...if it is, I'll be sure to PM them...thanks for thinking of that!


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## jade1

castleri said:
			
		

> Have you contacted the opther peole you said responded to her offer?  They may have some info or at least appreciate a heads up from you if they are considering dealing with her.  Do hope this all works out and that it is just some unfortunate set of circumstances that kept her from getting back to you and not really a fraudulent action.



I agree, plus the past posts hold some possible valuable information-I mean there may be some past posts that may hold some valuable information.


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## MinnieGirl33

Olaf said:
			
		

> The sooner, the better.  If there's a video camera on the register at Western Union, it's possible that it recorded her.  However, those are typically on a loop.  The Disboard people might be able to help you with an IP address.



I was thinking the exact same thing.

If I were you I wouldn't give her any more time to disappear.  If she is legit then she should have returned your calls.  If something wacky happened to her then I am sure she would understand why you filed a police report after her apparent dissappearance with your $870.

I would file a police report ASAP (for fraud), file a report w/WU & find out what your legal rights are.  

Even if she used a fake name with you she might have used the same fake name with somebody else (I'm sure you are not the first scam) & you might actually end up helping the police & others by making a report.

Good luck & keep us posted.


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## TheRustyScupper

1) I felt sorry for the OP and her sad story.
2) Unfortunately, people get scammed every day.
3) However, I no longer feel sorry for her.
4) Her post said she wouldn't call police, Western Union, or anyone else.
5) That says she is in denial or just wanting to not pursue the problem.
6) Such in-action allows crooks to survive and even prosper.


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## eileenkeeney

We are not allowed to state the user id (or name) of someone, even if you are only stating absolute facts?
It has been a long time since I read the rules.

So there is someone, who had points for rent, where exactly half the value of the points is $800, who has a low post count, and the message has several replies indicating someone has pm'd them.

The risk of not stating the user id is that someone (such as myself) may look at the board, find a posting which meets this criteria (which I was able to quickly do) and I may then assume the culprit is that person.

Of course, if the person does this again, they likely will not use the same id anyway, so I guess it may be pointless to mention the user id.
The most valuable information may actually be the details which a person can use to avoid making the same mistake.

Good Luck, I hope you get the reservation you need.


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## disney-super-mom

I'm so sorry this happened to you - HOW AWFUL!  

Now I'm extremely nervous!  I am in the process of renting some points from a member of the Disboards, and although this person is a long-time member with tons of posts, and most likely a very honest individual, I don't know her at all and have yet to actually speak to her on the phone.  We've only communicated by email so far.

I was already feeling nervous, but now I'm downright jittery!  Actually, when I posted that I wanted to rent points, I made it clear that I wanted to rent from a Disboard vet - someone with a long history here who is an active member.  It just makes me feel better to deal in a transaction with someone I've never met who has an established presence here.

Thanks for posting your story!  It can make a difference.  It already has for me.  

BTW, what is the best way to make a payment to a person you're renting from?  Anyone have any suggestions?


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## Chuck S

I am confused as to why the OP is reluctant to contact the police in the city where she sent the Western Union.  The Western Union office should have a surveillance video of the person who claimed the money. I would be on the phone immediately.


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## DMKEDM

Chuck S: The reason I'm waiting on contacting the police is twofold:

1.  I've lived thru unexpected things like computer crashes and phone outages and emergencies that prevented me from doing what I promised to do at the time I promised to do it. Calling in the police and claiming fraud before I've given the renter/poster at least a bit of time to get back to me to explain what happened seems wrong to me--just in case this isn't fraud, but a problem that can be explained.

2.  I've gotten a PM or two from people who think this renter/poster may get back in touch with me after all...she has a "history" (albeit a little one) of difficult-but-successful transactions before. Seems to me that calling in the police at this stage would make a bad situation worse. 

Now I know that the longer I wait the less of a chance there is that the police will be able to do anything about this...but I'd feel worse if I called the police with my suspicion of fraud/scam and it turned out she'd been hit by a car, or something else awful happened and that explained why she "disappeared"...

A judgement call, for sure. But not worth $800 to me to risk accusing someone falsely of something as awful as fraud/scamming...


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## Disneyaholic

Chuck S said:
			
		

> I am confused as to why the OP is reluctant to contact the police in the city where she sent the Western Union.  The Western Union office should have a surveillance video of the person who claimed the money. I would be on the phone immediately.



I'm with you, Chuck.  As has already been pointed out, using Western Union instead of Paypal or some other means of payment is the first red flag.  "Losing" the ID and having the money picked up before you even got off the phone are two more.  

To the OP, you've trusted too many times on this to trust any more.  If, by some extremely small chance, this WAS a legit transaction, the person will just have to accept your apologies.  However, I truly doubt that you will ever hear from her again.  I am sorry that this happened to you; I hate to say this, the sympathy is greatly reduced if you don't take measures to help yourself out of this immediately.  

I also wouldn't doubt that the cell phone is a pre-paid "disposable" one, which cannot be traced.  But I wouldn't wait another minute to start tracking her down, hopefully she slipped up somewhere.


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## Shoshana

And IF you report the loss of your $$ to the police, and they find she did not scam you, there will be no negative consequences to her -- you cannot cause her to be hurt if she is "innocent."

On the other hand, if you do not report it immediately, then you risk not only your money, but _your_  credibility, and you implicitly allow her to continue scamming others.

As far as Western Union -- yes, you called and encouraged them to allow her to accept the money without an ID.  Thus, they participated in the scam and they were conned as well.  Their safety mechanisms should not be so easily violated.

I understand wanting to be a reasonable person, and not wanting to cause undue harm to another.  But I think that you have already waited more than another reasonable person might think is appropriate.


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## Chuck S

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Chuck S: The reason I'm waiting on contacting the police is twofold:
> 
> 1. I've lived thru unexpected things like computer crashes and phone outages and emergencies that prevented me from doing what I promised to do at the time I promised to do it. Calling in the police and claiming fraud before I've given the renter/poster at least a bit of time to get back to me to explain what happened seems wrong to me--just in case this isn't fraud, but a problem that can be explained.
> 
> 2. I've gotten a PM or two from people who think this renter/poster may get back in touch with me after all...she has a "history" (albeit a little one) of difficult-but-successful transactions before. Seems to me that calling in the police at this stage would make a bad situation worse.
> 
> Now I know that the longer I wait the less of a chance there is that the police will be able to do anything about this...but I'd feel worse if I called the police with my suspicion of fraud/scam and it turned out she'd been hit by a car, or something else awful happened and that explained why she "disappeared"...
> 
> A judgement call, for sure. But not worth $800 to me to risk accusing someone falsely of something as awful as fraud/scamming...


 
But _IF_ there is a reasonable explaination, the police could surmise that.  No charges have to be filed at the moment, but it sure wouldn't hurt for them to start an investigation.  If she _had_ been "hit by a car" or had some otherreasonable explaination, then it is unlikely the police would recommend pressing charges.


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## Patty3

You are really a very nice considerate person who, from your posts, only wants to see the good in every one.  I wish there were more people like you in the world.  I really feel bad that this has happened to you.  I also wish that you could out this person so others do not fall victim to them, if this turns out badly for you.  I myself, are not as kind as you.  I would definitely be fuming mad at the sheer thought of being duped by someone who knows how we all trust each other probably more than we should.  I would contact the police and Western Union today.  Best of luck to you and I hope you get your money back.  If you don't just remember, what goes around, comes around.


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## DMKEDM

Oh, dear...I guess I posted too much identifying (or not enough) info after all...I'm so sorry...

I cannot say who the renter/poster is...the Disboards mods made it clear I could not...but I can and will be glad to respond to PMs asking about any particular poster...

I will feel absolutely awful if I've unintentially "tarred" another potential renter with this post...

And to the people who think I should call the police or Western Union without waiting...I'm sorry you don't understand my thinking--or perhaps you do, but you simply disagree. I did call Western Union to find out if they keep any kind of records or have any kind of office for situations such as this...I'm waiting for a call back ... 

I appreciate the sympathy from those who sympathize, and recognize the right of those who do not sympathize to say so. And I so very much do not want to cast a shadow on any other poster...I hope I haven't inadvertently done that.


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## brandip22

As a manager at a bank, I see ID theft and fraud way too much. This sounds like total fraud to me. The no ID to pick up $800? I don't care what code word you tell me, not gonna happen. That also just verifies that this is probably a scam as the phone is stolen or a "friends'" and makes a good reason why she couldn't use her ID. Also, were the other posters who PMd you on her difficulties "older" members or new posters as well? Maybe they are someone who has another screen name and created a new one to scam folks. I guess I'm a bit jaded when it comes to theft and money. 

I hate to say it, but I, too, will not feel sorry for someone who refuses to help themselves. I hate it happened, but the OP's post count is pretty low, too and it seems a bit odd to trust so much when only being on the boards since July. Now, to do nothing? I don't get it, but I guess that's just me.

As far as wanting to just "make sure"- if that is the case, why even bring it up here yet? And if she agreed to one thing and is not holding up her end of the bargain or agreement, it's fraud- even if her phone died- she can get to a library to email or PM you. Or, heaven-forbid she got into a wreck- would the other posters have had trouble with her before, too? I can't believe one person has that many issues.


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## JimMIA

TheRustyScupper said:
			
		

> 1) I felt sorry for the OP and her sad story.
> 2) Unfortunately, people get scammed every day.
> 3) However, I no longer feel sorry for her.
> 4) Her post said she wouldn't call police, Western Union, or anyone else.
> 5) That says she is in denial or just wanting to not pursue the problem.
> 6) Such in-action allows crooks to survive and even prosper.


 I think we'd all do well to take a deep breath and not jump to too many rash conclusions here.

First of all, just because the OP does not post _every thought _ she has or _every step _ she takes here, that does not mean she is not following up calmly, logically, and through appropriate channels.  She is.

Second -- all that has happened here so far is that OP is having difficulty with a rather tricky transaction.  It should surprise no one that transferring for a reservation 13 months from now is more complicated than a regular rental.  It is entirely possible that the person renting the points has encountered some glitch in making that happen.  In a perfect world, she'd get right on the phone to OP and explain the difficulty, but that hasn't happened.

Third -- no crime has occurred.  In order for this to be fraud or theft, OP would have to be able to prove that the person renting the points never intended to transfer the points in the first place.  At this juncture, she can't prove that -- and has rightfully decided to wait rather than make an erroneous allegation.

Fourth -- Western Union has nothing to do with this.  They transmitted the money to exactly the person they were supposed to, and they have neither the responsibility nor ability to investigate what happened after they completed their transaction.  Of course they will assist any law enforcement investigation, but they would be on thin legal ice getting involved on their own.

Fifth -- there is no mystery about who the person renting the points is.  OP knows who she is, and it will be no big challenge to find her if that becomes necessary.

Finally, I think this is a difficult and stressful transaction...but not a rip-off.  I think the real problem here is the person renting the points is really not very knowlegeable about their DVC account and they are not very well organized/businesslike.  That may cause a lot of heartache (and heartburn), but that's the way some people live their lives.

I think OP is doing exactly what she should be doing at this point in time.  She is venting, and working to resolve the issue.  Nothing is going to be done on the weekend anyway, so we'll see what next week brings.  I hope, and expect, that it will work out fine for everyone involved.


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## Chuck S

JimMIA said:
			
		

> I think OP is doing exactly what she should be doing at this point in time. She is venting, and working to resolve the issue. Nothing is going to be done on the weekend anyway, so we'll see what next week brings. I hope, and expect, that it will work out fine for everyone involved.


 
Actually, a LOT can be done today. Member Services is open this afternoon, the transfer can take place. Police could contact the Western Union office and begin a preliminary investigation with the name of the person and surveillance footage (before it is erased), the OP could check the Orange County deed site to see if the name on the caller ID actually owns points.


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## DMKEDM

Whether I've done right or not remains to be seen...but...the renter/poster just called me. This time she did not use a traceable phone...the call came in as "blocked" on my caller ID.

She apologized for not responding to me yesterday; said she'd had an emergency and asked what time Monday we should complete the transaction.

I told her I was quite upset by this and that I'd prefer to cancel the transaction and asked her if she would return my money.

She then told me her mother died yesterday. And then asked again if I would go forward with the transaction on Monday.

I told her I was sorry to hear about her mother but preferred to cancel the transaction. She said she would wire the money back to me on Monday.

Whether she will or not remains to be seen.

I will feel terrible if my skepticism is misplaced and she is in fact dealing with the death of her mother. But I'm just too skeptical to continue this. Or to give her my address so she can mail me the money. I'll take my chances that she'll actually wire the money back to me on Monday.

Now I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to just forget this ever happened!

Again, thanks for the support to those who offered it. Sorry if I "offended" those who think I should have brought in the police. 

Happy day to all.


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## zurgswife

Hope you get your money back.


----------



## Chuck S

Well, if there was a death in the family, the delay is of course, understandable. She would have been in shock and making travel or funeral arrangements and spending time with family. But, even so, she really _should_ have contacted you earlier to explain the situation. With the "trust factor" being such a large part of any rental/transfer transaction this serves as a good reminder to others to not engage in this sort of a transaction without verified contact info and a written contract.


----------



## DMKEDM

"With the "trust factor" being such a large part of any rental/transfer transaction this serves as a good reminder to others to not engage in this sort of a transaction without verified contact info and a written contract."

AMEN, Chuck S!!!!

I don't know if her mother really died or not. I don't know if she'll really return my money or not. I do know Chuck S is absolutely correct that a transaction built on trust requires either a great deal of luck or verified contact info and likely a written contract, too! I sure hope I've learned my lesson!!!


----------



## JimMIA

Chuck S said:
			
		

> Police could contact the Western Union office and begin a preliminary investication with the name of the person and surveillance footage (before it is erased)


I'm not sure what the law is there, but the police would probably have to subpoena that information...if in fact they would even start an investigation based on what OP has now.  I doubt they would, because as I said above, no crime has been committed.   

Any tapes WU might have (and I don't know if they have any) would not be critical anyway.  There are cases where surveillance videos might be helpful -- even critical -- but this is not one of those cases.  If the police conducted an investigation, they'd use a photo lineup to identify the subject.





> the OP could check the Orange County deed site to see if the name on the caller ID actually owns points.


As I said above, there are no mysteries about the person renting the points.

I'm glad to see that the person renting points contacted OP, and hopefully this will work out.  She has been doing other things beside posting here, and I suspect the call was the result of those efforts.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Okay, so her mother died (I'm sorry if that is truly the case).  She found time to get to the Western Union counter to pick up the money, but didn't have time to call you?  I honestly hope you get your money back on Monday, but I think the person may just be stalling for more time before you change your mind about contacting the authorities.  Have you check the Orange County Comptroller's website yet to even see if she is a contract holder?


----------



## jkevinmcg

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> She apologized for not responding to me yesterday; said she'd had an emergency and asked what time Monday we should complete the transaction.




I hate to be so cynical but I'll only believe it when you post here on Monday that you have gotten your money back.  I'll also speculate that she has been following this thread.


----------



## disneyjunkie

jkevinmcg said:
			
		

> I hate to be so cynical but I'll only believe it when you post here on Monday that you have gotten your money back.  I'll also speculate that she has been following this thread.




ITA

Western Union operates 24 hours a day.  Why does she have to wait until Monday to wire you the money back?


----------



## WebmasterDoc

I have been in contact with both parties today. DMKEDM contacted me this morning asking about posting her experience someplace on the DVC Boards. As our policies allow, I suggested posting here as a reminder of the trust issue but asked that no names be mentioned (also per board policies). She has handled her side of this issue very delicately and that has been appreciated. I know she has appreciated the concern, comments and suggestions made by others in this thread.

I have also heard from the other person, who assures me that the matter will be resolved by agreement of both parties and that is acceptable for the time being.

Since the DIS receives nothing from any Rent/Trade transaction, it is clearly the responsibility of all parties to conduct their transaction without intervention of the board. In the 7+ years I've been involved with the R/T Board I can count on one hand the number of transaction irregularities reported and each time have contacted both parties to urge resolution - this was one of those times and hopefully all will be satisfied in the near future.

Thanks to all for the positive comments and suggestions offered in this thread - all were appropriate for the situation and in the spirit of the helpful nature of the forum.


----------



## msmayor

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Chuck S: The reason I'm waiting on contacting the police is twofold:
> 
> 1.  I've lived thru unexpected things like computer crashes and phone outages and emergencies that prevented me from doing what I promised to do at the time I promised to do it. Calling in the police and claiming fraud before I've given the renter/poster at least a bit of time to get back to me to explain what happened seems wrong to me--just in case this isn't fraud, but a problem that can be explained.
> 
> 2.  I've gotten a PM or two from people who think this renter/poster may get back in touch with me after all...she has a "history" (albeit a little one) of difficult-but-successful transactions before. Seems to me that calling in the police at this stage would make a bad situation worse.
> 
> Now I know that the longer I wait the less of a chance there is that the police will be able to do anything about this...but I'd feel worse if I called the police with my suspicion of fraud/scam and it turned out she'd been hit by a car, or something else awful happened and that explained why she "disappeared"...
> 
> A judgement call, for sure.* But not worth $800 to me to risk accusing someone falsely of something as awful as fraud/scamming...*



I think its a little too late for this...your very first post implies fraud/scamming against this person.


----------



## Sammie

I must say Doc, that your participation is a testament to your fine character, as you are on vacation.   

That said, for those that would run to the police, they will not do anything except take a report and might not do that until more time has passed in case there truly is an emergency.

Also for those quick to say use PayPal, there was a special article in USAToday about fraud and they are huge part of it and highly recommended by fraud experts to avoid like the plague. 

I hope for the sake of the OP, this works out. I for one would not be able to put this type of trust in any transaction with any stranger. Regardless of how many safeguards one takes this transaction is truly not fool proof in that the member has complete control of the reservation until you check in.  

I have been the victim of idenity theft and I guess I will always be leary.


----------



## DMKEDM

As you might have guessed, this has been a very stressful situation for me...between beating myself up for being stupid, "mourning" having thrown away $870, and then "going thru channels" about whether to post or not, and how to post if so; and then dealing with the outpouring of support (and criticism), I'm afraid I'm not thinking as clearly as I might otherwise...

I didn't even think about the fact that Western Union isn't closed today & tomorrow...and I didn't know MS is open today til 5 (I thought they were open til noon on Saturdays, and didn't check)...

I've had a great deal of input (see JimMIA's posts) about the renter/poster and it seems she is not a scammer...whether or not she's "the right person" for me to do a transaction with is another story, but the evidence now suggests that she's not engaging in fraud...

I recognize I'm taking my chances by waiting til Monday, and I also know that it may take some hoops-jumping on my part to get the money even if she really sends it...how does one go about getting money from Western Union when one lives in a city that has multiple Western Union agents? The only information on me that the renter/poster has is my name, and the city and state in which I live (that was all that was needed when I wired her money yesterday; hopefully it'll come back to the same machine I sent it from...but I won't know til I check...and I don't know how Western Union will be able to contact me, since the person sending the money does not have my address...she does have my phone number, tho...maybe she'll give that to Western Union; I just don't know)...I do know I really really really REALLY do not want to talk to her again...

Given that another person on Disboards (JimMIA) knows of her, I'm hoping this will all work out...I don't want to hurt the poster's/renter's reputation and while her story has made me extremely skeptical, it IS possible it's all true...it's also possible that the transaction could have worked, and/or that she will return  my money, even if the details of the story aren't true. 

In the meantime, I promise to post Monday (or perhaps Tuesday, depending on what happens and when) to let you all know whether the money came back to me or not. 

Again, my thanks for the many people who offered moral support (and "real help," too)...and most particularly to the Disboards folks ... everything from starting this thread to the PMs I've sent was done after I checked with them...

Argh!!! It's worth saying again: most of us are honest, well-meaning people who would not intentionally hurt another...I'm sure the vast majority of rental agreements go thru quite smoothly...but had I followed Chuck S's advice and gotten verifiable info and used a written contract none of this would have happened. My bad. I sure do hope I've learned my lesson!!!


----------



## DMKEDM

Now that WebmasterDoc has "revealed himself" I can say how very, very much I've appreciated his advice and support throughout this situation...most especially given that he has taken time from his vacation at OKW to do so...

He's THE BEST!!!!

Others have also been wonderful to me (and, it seems, to the original poster/renter, too)...I really appreciate all of you.

It stings a little to read the criticism, but those who posted it had the right and hopefully I will learn from some of it, too.

I'll let you know as soon as this is resolved...and again I thank you and wish pixie dust to you all...


----------



## JimMIA

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> I've had a great deal of input (see JimMIA's posts) about the renter/poster and it seems she is not a scammer...whether or not she's "the right person" for me to do a transaction with is another story, but the evidence now suggests that she's not engaging in fraud...





> Given that another person on Disboards (JimMIA) knows of her, I'm hoping this will all work out...


Just so we're clear here...I "know of" this person in _precisely_ the way I "know of" her in DMKEDM's case -- from another problematic rental situation.  

She's definitely *not* "the right person" for *me* to do a transaction with, but I'm hopeful this works out for DMKEDM.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go




----------



## funhouse8

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Now that WebmasterDoc has "revealed himself" I can say how very, very much I've appreciated his advice and support throughout this situation...most especially given that he has taken time from his vacation at OKW to do so...
> 
> He's THE BEST!!!!
> 
> Others have also been wonderful to me (and, it seems, to the original poster/renter, too)...I really appreciate all of you.
> 
> It stings a little to read the criticism, but those who posted it had the right and hopefully I will learn from some of it, too.
> 
> I'll let you know as soon as this is resolved...and again I thank you and wish pixie dust to you all...



I'm so sorry you had to go though all this. I hope you get your money back and when you finally get to go on your vaction it is truly magical. Good luck on Monday!


----------



## greenban

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Just so we're clear here...I "know of" this person in _precisely_ the way I "know of" her in DMKEDM's case -- from another problematic rental situation.
> 
> She's definitely *not* "the right person" for *me* to do a transaction with, but I'm hopeful this works out for DMKEDM.



Jim you bring up another point/concern.

If this is not the first time this DISer has had problem rental transactions here, then perhaps she needs a banning (permanent or temporary) from the R/T board).  I know others who have been banned from the R/T board for less.

I would think that TPTB could prevent further heartaches and hardships by intervening now.

I agree the rules of the R/T board are clear, and the DIS has no responsibilities for this service that they provide, but I would not like to see the R/T board removed because of abuse.

-Tony

P.S.  Unlike Jim, I do not know the identity of this Owner, other than to say, its not me!


----------



## WebmasterDoc

greenban said:
			
		

> Jim you bring up another point/concern.
> 
> If this is not the first time this DISer has had problem rental transactions here, then perhaps she needs a banning (permanent or temporary) from the R/T board).  I know others who have been banned from the R/T board for less.
> 
> I would think that TPTB could prevent further heartaches and hardships by intervening now.



This is the ONLY time any irregularity has been reported regarding this person and they responded quickly when contacted. No board guidelines were violated and no other action is appropriate based on the information presently available.

As for others being banned for less, no one has EVER been banned from the R/T Board unless they violated site guidelines or R/T Board policies- in most cases several times after being warned. In all of those cases, the individual left the DIS no option except to remove posting privileges since they repeatedly violated board rules and policies - even after several warnings in some cases. There was a HUGE difference in this situation. My contact was merely an attempt to encourage resolution of the issue.

It's good to know of your strong feelings and support regarding banning posters for R/T Board activity.


----------



## SAGE

So sorry to hear this story.  I sent you a PM.

Take care
S


----------



## skibum

It sounds like things will work out for you.
Thank you for the education.
I look forward to hearing this was resolved.
Good luck.


----------



## rie'smom

I checked the R/T board just now and there are a couple of people renting pts with very low post numbers. The peculiar thing,to me,is that some of the people PMing also have very low post numbers. It would be very easy for someone to set up multiple accounts on the DIS.All they need is different email addresses -you can have many at one time on yahoo,etc. It could be that scammers have "discovered" the DIS. I'm sorry that this OP had problems but she sure showed me the light.No way will I rent or transfer pts unless I personally know the other person.


----------



## Sammie

rie'smom said:
			
		

> I checked the R/T board just now and there are a couple of people renting pts with very low post numbers. The peculiar thing,to me,is that some of the people PMing also have very low post numbers. It would be very easy for someone to set up multiple accounts on the DIS.All they need is different email addresses -you can have many at one time on yahoo,etc. It could be that scammers have "discovered" the DIS. I'm sorry that this OP had problems but she sure showed me the light.No way will I rent or transfer pts unless I personally know the other person.



I agree and I think something some are missing regardless of how many safeguards you take, unless you personally know the person you are renting from there is an element of risk to all the transactions. 

Which is why the price is such a good deal. One has to determine if the savings is worth the risk. Many have had very good experiences renting from unknowns but they took a chance and were lucky. 

I appreciate the OP being brave enough to share her experience and hopefully others will learn from it.


----------



## JimMIA

greenban said:
			
		

> If this is not the first time this DISer has had problem rental transactions here, then perhaps she needs a banning (permanent or temporary) from the R/T board).


As Doc said, the DIS was not aware of the first situation because it was resolved satisfactorily by the parties, as far as I know.

I think we need to recognize that there is a huge difference between a problematic transaction and fraud.  There is also a huge difference between having a problem and violating DIS rules.

Most of the problematic situations we see in rentals are either sloppy business practices or misunderstandings between the parties (or the ever-popular Combo of both!).  Many times neither party fully understands what they are doing.  We really can't expect the DIS to protect all parties from those kinds of situations, nor should they take sides in disputes between members.

The DIS can and should enforce their rules, but I don't see how we can reasonably expect them to be the rental police.  They've said pretty emphatically that they are not going to play that role.

My hat is off to Doc for helping, especially while on vacation!


----------



## Mtnman44

There are a lot of red flags that came together in this situation. Taken all together, I'd be shocked if you money shows up ever. If it is fraud, the only suprising thing is the fact that the person has made any contact at all since getting the cash. I guess there is a small chance but still.....

-New forum member, little history
-required Western Union
-Forgets ID
-Mother died

that's quite a combination of coincidence.


I didn't see anyone mention this, but what about using an ESCROW service for renting points? Seems worth it.


----------



## fabshelly

How about not renting from someone unless they provide at least three genuine references?


----------



## TCPluto

Chuck S said:
			
		

> Actually, a LOT can be done today. Member Services is open this afternoon, the transfer can take place. Police could contact the Western Union office and begin a preliminary investigation with the name of the person and surveillance footage (before it is erased), the OP could check the Orange County deed site to see if the name on the caller ID actually owns points.



Actually, probably not so much.  Like Jim said, we're not sure what we have here as yet, and that's how the police would look at it.  

Here's a little known fact for you about Western Union.  You can send the money to someone in Orlando FL.  As soon as the transaction is in the computer, that person can go to the WU office of their choice, any where in te world, and collect the money.  Many, if not most, WU centers are in other stores , (party stores, convenience stores, etc) which have a remote possibility of having a camera. 

Any records check of WU, cell phone company, or DVC (or DISboards for that matter) would have to be with a court order.  That's not going to happen on the weekend, neither the court order nor the records search.

There are more problems than this, but that's just the start.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Wow, I missed a LOT today!  So sorry for the OPs experience, but it sounds like it was a learning experience, and that's always a good thing too.  Hope you get your money back on Monday, and hope the owner is being honest about everything.


----------



## SUSIEQ

Hope everything turns out ok!


----------



## Patty3

I really hope you get your money back on Monday.


----------



## Lasrnw

I have had such great experiences renting and tranfserring points - I'm so sorry this has caused a problem. While no transaction is 100% guaranteed I'm wondering if their is a way that when you have a pleasant transaction with someone you can give them a star somewhere - maybe on their profile? Their signature?


----------



## Cruelladeville

I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles!  I, too,  was unaware that someone who asks for $$ from Western Union was a red flag.  I recently had a similar issue with the purchase of a timeshare.  And, like you, I was trusting--I sent $5000.00(hope that makes you feel just a tiny bit better!).  I  contacted the authorities, but I found out you can't claim fraud until you have given the seller a chance to do the right thing (which you did). In my case, I have to wait 10 days to see if the seller mails the paperwork to me.  In the mean time, reading your post has made me feel slightly better that I am not alone in this, I hope that my story makes you feel a little better, too. I always thought using Western Union was a good thing.  Most of the time the money is sent/picked up at places like Walgreen's or Walmart, where they don't usually make a video of the transactions.


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

I guess I'm just stupid but in the case of this transaction I don't see the use of Western Union as being such a bad thing. The OP was purchasing points from the problematic person (PP for short). PP requested 50% in cash via wire transfer before completing the point transfer with the OP. This seems reasonable to me. Wouldn't most of you renting points via transfer want to have SOMETHING in hand before performing a transaction that is irreversible?

So on Monday they'd get on the phone, MS would transfer the points and OP sends the rest of the cash via whatever method. At this point PP is on tenterhooks waiting for the cash to arrive (and to avoid ripoff).  I only see a couple major mistakes here. 

1) It doesn't look like the OP had the PP's contract number in hand before wiring the money. At least with that you could cross reference some information about the person through the Orange County records. And the contract number shows up in the transaction records of the two parties on the member website anyway so its not like its a big secret (at least I think that's the case, I've only been on the sending end).

2) Why the rush? 50% via snail mail using a regular check, certified check or money order would still allow plenty of time to make the reservation (the checks being made on a bank available to both parties locally). The lack of ID wouldn't have been your problem either. By the time it shows up she should have taken care of business.

Beyond that it would have been extraordinarily considerate if the PP had called but I guarentee you this transaction would not have been the first thing on my mind if I'd been walking in her shoes. I think the OP has done the right thing to wait and hope that things worked out. Any rental arrangement has the potential to go awry just like many other contracts between two people. 

Note: Paypal lets you get your money semi immediately but it puts some interesting complications on that money. For bigger amounts like DVC amounts I think traditional methods would work better.


----------



## FayeW

I'm very sorry you've had this experience. This is exactly the scenario that kept me from renting points a few months ago. I was checking the R/T board frequently, and it seemed to me that there were an inordinate number of brand new Disboard members with points for rent! Even though everyone on here are complete strangers, there is some (perhaps false) security in dealing with people who are well known and well respected (here on the boards, at least). There are several posters who I would happily pay in full immediately, but not people with low post counts!


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

Post your outcome in your original post in nice big bright letters. That way people don't read and say omigosh! and rush to post their tidbit, outrage or whatever.


----------



## OceanAnnie

I know zilch when it comes to renting points. I'm glad you posted your experience. I do hope you get your money back on Monday.  
    

If you get the, "I can get it to you on Thursday" routine,  pushing deadlines again-- you know the deal has gone further south. Please pursue the matter legally if you don't get your money. ::cop: People shouldn't get away with scamming others. When they are successful, it gives them incentive to keep doing it.   

Good luck!!


----------



## Monte Cristo

I'm also hoping your situation gets resolved and you get your money back.


----------



## KingOMiami

Sorry to hear of your bad experience! As others have mentioned, I think it would have been hard for most not to notice the red flags either, especially all caught up in the moment.

Now, to play devil's advocate, I hope that something did not happen to this person.  If this was a scam though, I hope that the DIS admins will ban this person's IP address.  It is an extremely small consolation, but at least it will stop this person from doing this again.  I don't know how it works, but if you kept the transcripts of your PM's, perhaps you could seek some sort of legal action?

I understand the DIS board folks have the R/T board for members but at the same time they should help to ensure that these things do not happen.

Your experience is enough for me to not want to rent points now


----------



## DMKEDM

I don't know how to do bright letters, quotes, emoticons, et al (I could learn, but have no particular "urge" to do so)...I do, however, sympathize, w/folks who will want to know the outcome w/out having to sort through pages of thread comments...

Shall I start a new thread (especially if it's a positive resolution)? Or would it be better to just post at the end (at the time) of this thread? Or I guess I could do both...opinions?

One more comment from me: I, too, am a low post count person (altho this thread has upp'ed the totals by a lot!!!!)...I'm relatively new to Disboards, and to DVC ownership...I think a low post count is a red flag--a sign that further checking is needed ... but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing...we all have to start somewhere and it will (in the normal course of events) take a while to build up a post count! It will also be very hard to get 3 satisfied recommendations (or whatever) without first being able to rent 3 times...there has to be a beginning for all of us...

And, I did suggest a check or money order...I even suggested a bank-to-bank transfer of money...she insisted on Western Union...I believe that is what made it the red flag...not Western Union itself, but unwillingness to consider other more conventional methods of money delivery...

I like the escrow idea, and the idea of a place where renters (both providers and users of points; I guess both are renters!) can post about good experience with each other...don't know how to do it, but would gladly participate in such a "program."

Once again, I thank everyone for their ideas and support--and even for the criticism...only one or two comments felt like unjustified "attacks"...there was enough truth in pretty much all of them that even the critical ones, altho they stung, added to my learning experience with this.

I'll post next week--as close as possible to as soon as the money arrives (if it arrives), or by Tuesday if it doesn't...no idea how to do a poll, either, so I'll just "count" if people express a preference for a new thread, or continuation of this thread, or both as their preferred way of finding out about the outcome...


----------



## OceanAnnie

doubletrouble_vb said:
			
		

> Post your outcome in your original post in nice big bright letters. That way people don't read and say omigosh! and rush to post their tidbit, outrage or whatever.



I think this is a good idea! Once you have the new information, you could edit your title of the thread to read UPDATE: Pg. 1 (or something) Renting Points w/o checking.  And just put your update on your first post at the end.

Just my .02.


----------



## disney gadabout

I hope all this gets resolved for you on Monday and your money is returned.  My husband says I'm very naive (sp) about "money matters", and I trust too easily also!  Your attitude throughout this has been exceptional.  I wish you all the best...Andrea


----------



## DVCJones

Geez!!! I really hope you get your money. I was holding my breath reading through all the posts.

My first R/T experience went well. I rented 12 points once to a person who only needed a nights stay. Talk about taking it slow   Then I got a little nerve and bought 118 points and had them transferred to my account. I remember at the time, I thought it was a complete leap of faith for the seller, as he just transfered them in my account. Once I confirmed they were indeed there I of course made payment through Paypal. I just couldn't get over the fact that this seller just did the transfer. I would have been a wreck. I don't think I could be that trusting. I appreciate the seller who transferred the points I needed. I just don't know if I could have done the same if the roles were reversed. Maybe it is because DH is a police officer an I have heard too many stories.  

Oh yeah, my point. I think the R/T board is a great thing. It couldn't exsist if there wasn't a "trust factor" I believe that 99% of the people there are honest. (I just can't get the other 1% out of my mind.) I don't think it is fair to come down on the OP. Any one of us could run into the 1%. I think it was very brave for the OP to even post her situation. She did us all a favor in educating all of us to the "red flags". Even if it meant getting flamed (a little)
She only did what ANYONE who R/T's would have to do. TRUST!!!

I really hope you get your $$$. I really don't want to believe that there are peolpe who want to steal our pixie dust.


----------



## Beca

I'm sorry this happened to you!!  I don't mean to be a cynic, but really....what are the chances that someone would lose their wallet and their mother on the same day??  I mean, if she had known her mother had passed, she might be in shock enough to THEN lose her wallet...but the chances of that happening the other way around are pretty slim.

It sounds to me like a scammer was caught, and is now fearful.  I think posting your story on the dis was probably the best thing you could've done.  I do think you will get your money back on Monday...I think she is running scared.

Since you have her name, have you tried whitepages.com to try and find her home address and phone number?  It's amazing how many people you can find thru them.

Good luck, and don't beat yourself up too much....hindsight is 20/20.

 

Beca


----------



## LisaS

To the OP: I hope everything works out for you and that you get your money back very quickly!



			
				JimMIA said:
			
		

> As Doc said, the DIS was not aware of the first situation because it was resolved satisfactorily by the parties, as far as I know.


If you are referring to the situation I'm thinking of, the renter in that case posted just yesterday that she "stayed at BCV this week" so it does sound like things worked out OK in the end. But I do remember reading her posts about her rental experience and she went through 11 months of stress and uncertainty. She paid 50% up front but didn't receive the confirmation in the mail and couldn't reach the owner for over a month (full voicemail inbox and full email inbox, and some time later the owner's phone was disconnected). The confirmation letter finally turned up after 2 months and it indicated that someone else was actually the owner of the points (a relative, it turns out). The "owner" wanted the renter to make the final payment through Western Union but I think the renter refused and they settled on another payment method.  This ordeal played out over an 11-month time period during which the renter really wasn't sure she would have a reservation when she arrived at BCV but it appears now that everything worked out OK for the renter.

So assuming I'm right about this being the same "owner", the transaction was completed successfully, but was an extremely stressful experience for the person renting the points.



> My hat is off to Doc for helping, especially while on vacation!


Three cheers for Doc!


----------



## LoveToDisney

So sorry to hear about the stressful situation you are in and thank you very much for posting so the rest of us could learn and perhaps not have it happen to us. I hope things work out well for you on Monday and you get your money back. Be sure to give us an update.


----------



## Glorydaz

wishing you lots of luck. I'm alot like you in the sense that I'd want to give the other person every reasonable explanation under the sun. they say you learn from your mistakes. and it sounds like even if this person really had all these mishaps, you've picked up some very valuable pointers.

looking forward to your positive outcome. and I commend you on your sensitive and delicate handling of this most awkward situation...


----------



## T.E. Yeary

It's really distressing to see this kind of thing happening on "our" boards!

Please   "Ms. Renter", do the right thing!!!

Tom


----------



## Y-ASK

Well now that you've had time to sit back and think for a while why not just go through with the transaction.  It won't cost you any more pain and suffering.  When you talk to the person on Monday just have them call MS and make the transfer.  You can call MS after the transfer has been made to verify and then send the rest of the money and you're done.  I would think that would be much easier than waiting and worrying about getting the money sent back. Ten minutes tops and your mind would be put as ease.  Just a thought...

Also, it is dishearting to read some of the post in this thread about how they would never make any kind of rental transaction from the R/T board.  How many threads have ever been started saying that someone got scammed?  I've only seen this one so far.  There might have been others that I've missed but this is the 1st for me.  There are probably any where from 10-100 transactions that take place every day on that board and it's been available for years.  I think it was the Reagan Admin. that said "Trust but Verify".  Why scare everybody with talk like that?

Y-ASK


----------



## chip1

I can't wait to read about how this ends. Hoping it ends well.


----------



## WOW

Thanks soooo much for your posting!!!  I am the trusting type also, and sometimes I need to realize that there are many people out there that are not!!!!  

Your situation is a reminder that we all need to be careful.

So sorry that this happened to you, but as others have posted, DO NOT BE TOO HARD ON YOURSELF.  You are not stupid....just trusting.... and sometimes that bites you.


----------



## Lasrnw

Something struck me from another post - every transaction I've done took some time. We had written contracts which were signed and returned with a check. Then I waited for the reservation confirmation prior to sending out the balance. I think if research was done on scams we would find that each one has some kind of limited time or urgency attached...like "you will lose this opportunity unless you act now". I have a boat for sale, listed on the internet and just the other day got an e-mail that a broker had someone who wanted to buy the boat -sight unseen -  but wanted to send me a check but prior I would have to sent this broker his commission -RIGHT! These scams are out there everywhere in almost every industry. I would be happy to give references for the people I have done business with - I would even supply a copy of the contract and a copy of the reservation confirmation.


----------



## castleri

LisaS said:
			
		

> To the OP: I hope everything works out for you and that you get your money back very quickly!
> 
> If you are referring to the situation I'm thinking of, the renter in that case posted just yesterday that she "stayed at BCV this week" so it does sound like things worked out OK in the end. But I do remember reading her posts about her rental experience and she went through 11 months of stress and uncertainty. She paid 50% up front but didn't receive the confirmation in the mail and couldn't reach the owner for over a month (full voicemail inbox and full email inbox, and some time later the owner's phone was disconnected). The confirmation letter finally turned up after 2 months and it indicated that someone else was actually the owner of the points (a relative, it turns out). The "owner" wanted the renter to make the final payment through Western Union but I think the renter refused and they settled on another payment method.  This ordeal played out over an 11-month time period during which the renter really wasn't sure she would have a reservation when she arrived at BCV but it appears now that everything worked out OK for the renter.
> 
> So assuming I'm right about this being the same "owner", the transaction was completed successfully, but was an extremely stressful experience for the person renting the points.
> 
> Three cheers for Doc!



I agree it does seem to be the same person and hopefully this will get settled in whatever is the best way for the OP.  

On the subject of number of posts - that is not always a good indicator as some people seem to feel the need to post on a cetain number of threads a day to up their count but really don't say much except - I agree or congratulations, or Welcome Home and while these are nice sentiments they don't really give you much to go on.  If a person can give you a reference or you can talk to them on the phone you may get a better feel for how the rental/transfer will go. The person I am renting to this year was originally referred to me by a friend at work based on posts from another board.  It just felt right and this is the second transaction we have had.   We all started with 1 as a post count and some people just build up those numbers slowly so while they may be inexperienced it does not mean they are trying to get away with something.  I will add that I  had a death in the family on a  Monday when I was supposed to  check availability for someone and it completely slipped my mind for about a week before I got back to him and asked if he was still interested.  Fortunately he went ahead and found someone else to rent from and was able to get the days in Jan he wanted, when he didn't hear back from me.  It all worked out as now I think I will be able to use the points myself  which is always a good thing.  No money had changed hands so at least there was no issue there.


----------



## DMKEDM

In response to Y-Ask, I thought about going ahead w/the transaction...but just don't feel the necessary comfort level w/this particular renter/poster...I'm not sure how the transfer transaction works; some have said you give MS both member numbers; others have said the transferring member needs to give a number and the name of the person who's getting the transfer, but that MS will look up that person's number...I don't want to risk giving out my member number...not sure why, but I really don't...

I'm feeling very gun-shy right now...not only because of this set of occurrences, but also because I moved too fast...I need to slow myself down and take a careful look at HOW to rent (either as one getting or as one giving points)...I think much of the reason I'm in the pickle I'm in is because I moved way too quickly, w/way too little thought ... all I thought was important was that I knew I wanted the points and I knew I was willing and able to pay for them...that's just not enough for a smooth transaction...

So...I'll "start over" and think through a process by which I'm willing to rent (either giving or receiving) and then I'll "toe-tip" back in...but not before...

Happy Sunday to everyone...


----------



## Y-ASK

It's totally your choice and please don't take this like I'm trying to talk you into anything.  I'm just going to convey some information having done a little of both renting and point transfers.

Point Transfers:
The person who is transfering the points will need to know your Full Name and your member number and nothing else.  Do not give out your SS# because that, your address, and your telephone number is what is asked for to prove ID when you call MS.  Now as part of the deal the person transferring the points may want a little more info from you such as address or phone number.  All of that information can be gotten off the internet so what does it matter if you give it.  And if you really don't want to give out your MS number you might be able to use just your address and phone number is MS will allow this. 

Some times MS asked the person transferring the points for a faxed signed document basically telling them to transfer said amount of points from thier account to yours.  The process does not take that long to do but they may wait for the fax.  I would not send the 2nd half of the money until you've verified that your account has been credited with the points.

Renting points:
Renting points requires a little more trust than a transfer.  The owner can always cancel the reservation and get thier points back but I've never heard of that happening except for lack of payment.  Most of the time it's the people who are renting that cause most of the problems.  What you experienced is not the norm.
As you've already learned if the person renting the points will only take one form of payment such as Western Union that should be a very big Red Flag and you should consider going to someone else. There's also ways of checking up on the person renting the points.  Post count is one but a low post count does not mean an untrustworthy person.  As someone alluded to earlier in this thread you can actually go to a Govt. website and put in the name of the person renting the points.  You should be able to verify that they indeed own DVC points.  Personally that would be enough for me because I don't think anyone risking jail time would actually be purchasing into DVC in order to conduct a scam.  I can give you the link to Govt. site if you so desire.  A contract is nice but the chances are that it probably would never stand up in court, although it is a great way to put to paper a detailed understanding of what is being offered and what is being agreed to.  And don't be surprised if the person renting the points asked for the full name of all the adults, the 1st name of the kids, and their ages.  That's what MS ask during the reservation process.  The person renting should also know that written verification will be mailed in about a week or two and they should have no problem forwarding that written confirmation to you.  It will have your name on it.  Hope this helps a little and I'd be happy to answer any other questions you may have.

Y-ASK


----------



## alldiz

I agree that low post count is not a good way to judge.  I have been lurking here for a year and today has been my 1st post.  I want to rent points which was my motivater to finally post.  I am very nervous to try this, but i will. I see now western union., not a good idea,  any other red flags i should look out for? What is best way of payment?  any tips would be great!
Thanks


----------



## Deb & Bill

Not only would I look for the number of posts, but I would look for the types of posts.  100 posts on the R/T Board would be as unsettling as 1 post.  But if the person posts all over the place, the DVC boards, Resorts board, etc., I might have a little more faith in their offer.


----------



## JimMIA

LisaS said:
			
		

> If you are referring to the situation I'm thinking of, the renter in that case posted just yesterday that she "stayed at BCV this week" so it does sound like things worked out OK in the end.


*Yes, Lisa...that was the first incident with the DVC owner in question.*  I sent that renter an email yesterday to re-check, but haven't heard back from her, but it is definitely the first situation.

I'm also glad it worked out, and that should make Dani feel a lot more confident about her transaction working out eventually.


----------



## FisherFamily

I feel your pain. Though we have had 3 very successful R/T transactions they always made me have anxieties that all would work out ok. One did have a few bumps but the other party was very understanding. I think the key is frequent communication so the party on the receiving end is not just sitting and wondering what is going on. Best of Luck to you in your situation I will try to send out positive vibes your direction.


----------



## lizziepooh

I would be concerned that this person may have already spent the money and may not have it to wire on Monday.  If she does in fact have points, you might be better off having her transfer the half that you paid for and forget the rest of the transaction.  I hope it all works out for you. 

   Since Western Union is a red flag, pay pal has scams, money orders can be faked, and a personal check can bounce, what is the best method of payment?


----------



## Deb & Bill

lizziepooh said:
			
		

> ...   Since Western Union is a red flag, pay pal has scams, money orders can be faked, and a personal check can bounce, what is the best method of payment?



Stick your first borne on a plane to the person requesting the funds????


----------



## LisaS

JimMIA said:
			
		

> *Yes, Lisa...that was the first incident with the DVC owner in question.*  I sent that renter an email yesterday to re-check, but haven't heard back from her, but it is definitely the first situation.


Based on her recent post, she's on a Disney cruise now. I hope she gives us an update when she gets back. It would be good to hear that her 11-month ordeal had a happy ending!


----------



## castleri

lizziepooh said:
			
		

> I would be concerned that this person may have already spent the money and may not have it to wire on Monday.  If she does in fact have points, you might be better off having her transfer the half that you paid for and forget the rest of the transaction.  I hope it all works out for you.
> 
> Since Western Union is a red flag, pay pal has scams, money orders can be faked, and a personal check can bounce, what is the best method of payment?



I have taken personal checks if there is time for them to clear before I reach a deadline on cancelling a ressie without penalty  but my favorite is a cashier's check.  I suppose that could be faked also.  I have never transferred points so dodn't know what I would do in that case.  Once the transfer is done you have no control over those points any longer unlike with a reservation so if you don't get the money up front you're out of luck.   Am very glad that so far I have enough points that I don't need to look for more and only rent out the ones I am unable to use or that will pay for passes or a cruise, etc.


----------



## wdwstar

I believe the OP is doing the right thing, by making things right. Asking for her money back instead of the points is probably her best option. The OP cant trust this person (PP- problematic) now, Who could? who knows if the points were distress points and cant be transfered, or the  pp  transfer the points into the OPs wrong use year or the wrong amount of points (less of course, what was agreed upon). I understand fully if the pps mother passed away, but somewhere, somehow, from the time pp received the money there should have been a phone call to the OP in honoring her promise to the OP.

Its not about money its about TRUST, HONOR and PROMISE    

PP if you are reading this thread    Do the right thing and HONOR your PROMISE to the OP, so she can regain your TRUST   

OP


----------



## diznyfanatic

lizziepooh said:
			
		

> ...
> Since Western Union is a red flag, pay pal has scams, money orders can be faked, and a personal check can bounce, what is the best method of payment?



In my opinion only, the best way to receive funds given today's current environment is via a Postal Money Order.  

Yes, they can still be faked, BUT you can take them directly to the Post Office to cash and they will verify whether it is a genuine Postal Money Order in order to cash it, and you will know it BEFORE you let go of your property, make a reservation or deposit counterfeit funds that will wreak havoc with your bank account.

Just my .02, YMMV.   

I also just wanted to add my sincere hopes that everything works out okay with this transaction.  I'm really sorry the OP had to deal with this.


----------



## dumbo71

Beca said:
			
		

> I'm sorry this happened to you!!  I don't mean to be a cynic, but really....what are the chances that someone would lose their wallet and their mother on the same day??  I mean, if she had known her mother had passed, she might be in shock enough to THEN lose her wallet...but the chances of that happening the other way around are pretty slim.
> 
> It sounds to me like a scammer was caught, and is now fearful.  I think posting your story on the dis was probably the best thing you could've done.  I do think you will get your money back on Monday...I think she is running scared.
> 
> Since you have her name, have you tried whitepages.com to try and find her home address and phone number?  It's amazing how many people you can find thru them.
> 
> Good luck, and don't beat yourself up too much....hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> 
> 
> Beca




I'm in complete agreement with this.  Lets really think this through.  Coincidences seldom happen and certainly not like this.  You MAY get your money back but it will only be because of your posts here and the efforts of WebmasterDoc.  For Doc to do that on vacation makes the guy a gem in my book.

While I agree with Jimmia for the most part I do agree somewhat with Greenban.  We don't need the rent/trade police but we do need posters banned IF it can be PROVEN they scammed someone.  So far there isn't proof of that yet.

STAY TUNED.


----------



## SAGE

_Since Western Union is a red flag, pay pal has scams, money orders can be faked, and a personal check can bounce, what is the best method of payment?_

 I would prefer to send a US Money Order - (by express post and request a signature with delivery).
The money orders from my bank are partially computarized and *must be made * out by the bank with the recipients name.  It safe for the DVC member and for the renter of the points.


----------



## DMKEDM

Hi, everyone:

My typing fingers are wearing down! I've gotten a zillion PMs from folks wondering who the person is with whom I had my problems...these people are, quite understandably, nervous about rental plans they are making.

I need everyone to understand that the Disboards rules require that I NOT "name names." I can tell someone if a particular person they're dealing (or planning to deal) with is the person with whom I had some trouble--kind of a "reference check"...but I can't just "name a name."

So far, everyone I've explained that to has been very understanding and has PM'ed back with the name of the potential renter they're considering dealing with...but if you-all who are reading this know up front that I can't just "tell you a name," but can only respond to a specific inquiry about a specific name, it'll save both you & me some extra typing and some extra PMs!!

Thanks!


----------



## Santa

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Hi, everyone:
> 
> My typing fingers are wearing down! I've gotten a zillion PMs from folks wondering who the person is with whom I had my problems...these people are, quite understandably, nervous about rental plans they are making.
> 
> I need everyone to understand that the Disboards rules require that I NOT "name names." I can tell someone if a particular person they're dealing (or planning to deal) with is the person with whom I had some trouble--kind of a "reference check"...but I can't just "name a name."
> 
> So far, everyone I've explained that to has been very understanding and has PM'ed back with the name of the potential renter they're considering dealing with...but if you-all who are reading this know up front that I can't just "tell you a name," but can only respond to a specific inquiry about a specific name, it'll save both you & me some extra typing and some extra PMs!!
> 
> Thanks!




  for a quick resolve.


----------



## JimMIA

Well, we've wandered pretty far off topic with the discussion of what form of payment is best...but worse than that, we're talking about the wrong thing.

What form of payment is best?  *ANY form of payment from an honest remitter is fine.*  I know a lot of DVC owners who routinely take personal checks (which would be at the bottom of the list for most posters on this thread, I suspect), and they've never had a problem.

And conversely, any imaginable method of payment is subject to counterfeiting, bouncing, fraud, etc.

The method of payment is only an important issue if you think the other party may rip you off.  And if you think that...why are you renting to them in the first place???  

The question of some sort of feedback mechanism is the same conversation.  That's a method of firmly slamming the barn door after all the horses have been stolen.  Why not just avoid that problem altogether?

*I think a much more useful discussion would be ways by which both owners renting points, and those renting from them, can assure themselves that they are dealing with a reputable person.* 

The only real protection anyone will ever have in a rental transaction is trust -- and trust is earned, not given.  There is no substitute for due diligence -- and there is also no excuse for not doing your homework.

Another critical element of a successful rental transaction, IMHO, is that both parties clearly *understand* all of the implications and ramifications of the rental transaction.  In fact, most of the problems we see with rental transactions are caused by *misunderstandings*, not by evil fraudsters lurking behind every computer keyboard.

I really think that would be an interesting discussion, but I think it would be better on another thread.


----------



## robinb

I'm so sorry to hear about your problem!  I have my fingers crossed that you will receive your $$ back tomorrow.  I vote for an update in this thread along with a change to the Subject to reflect on which page the update appears.

I always encourage people to rent from established members of the DIS.  It's not that a Newbie isn't trust worthy ... many are.  Howeber, I think a  bigger, genuine post count means that poster is less likely to be a scammer.  I also think it's best to rent from someone who has a contract.  A contract will spell out exactly what the rental agreement is: when payment is due, the dates of the rental, when the points will be transferred, cancellation policies, etc.  The confusion that JimMIA mentions is minimized with a easy to read contract/rental agreement.


----------



## lovinthemouse

I am so very sorry you had to go through this.  But, thank you for sharing your experience.  This may really save someone.  I hope you get to take your vacation.  Good Luck to You.


----------



## bsusanmb

I feel very sad for your situation.  I know that feeling myself.  

I had a very positive experience renting points from the DIS boards, but I did a really dumb thing on ebay and bought a vacation at AKL for $800 and lost that money.  When you finally realize that you have been scammed, the blood just drains out of you...I hope that you get your money back, but the likelihood of that isn't favorable.


----------



## LIFERBABE

LisaS said:
			
		

> To the OP: I hope everything works out for you and that you get your money back very quickly!
> 
> If you are referring to the situation I'm thinking of, the renter in that case posted just yesterday that she "stayed at BCV this week" so it does sound like things worked out OK in the end. But I do remember reading her posts about her rental experience and she went through 11 months of stress and uncertainty. She paid 50% up front but didn't receive the confirmation in the mail and couldn't reach the owner for over a month (full voicemail inbox and full email inbox, and some time later the owner's phone was disconnected). The confirmation letter finally turned up after 2 months and it indicated that someone else was actually the owner of the points (a relative, it turns out). The "owner" wanted the renter to make the final payment through Western Union but I think the renter refused and they settled on another payment method.  This ordeal played out over an 11-month time period during which the renter really wasn't sure she would have a reservation when she arrived at BCV but it appears now that everything worked out OK for the renter.
> 
> So assuming I'm right about this being the same "owner", the transaction was completed successfully, but was an extremely stressful experience for the person renting the points.
> 
> Three cheers for Doc!



I remember this situation vividly.  That renter posted at least twice concerned about her rental status.  Her last post, when the lady wanted her to send Western Union, was so disturbing to me, I PM'd her to offer help.  I am so glad to hear that all went well, but I do not wish that on anyone and the fact that the PP is still here and still acting shady is even more disturbing.
OP I wish you a swift resolution to this and you are right to take extra caution. 
If this is the same PP, It is sad that one person is bringing the R/T board down.


----------



## drakethib

I hope this works out for you.

I have always been leary of rentng points from people with low post count. Of course, someone with high post counts could steal as well.

I have had points transfered before but will only do so if the renter allows paypal payment by credit card. Still not fool proof but I can contest the charges   if the transaction does not happen pretty quick.


----------



## Minniespal

Very sad that this happened to you


----------



## robinb

LisaS said:
			
		

> So assuming I'm right about this being the same "owner", the transaction was completed successfully, but was an extremely stressful experience for the person renting the points.



Oh my!  I just dug up those threads using Google.


----------



## castleri

The thread is now back I believe and since it was brought back by the person with the points to rent hopefully does not violate the rules of the board.  Don't know if she has read this thread however.


----------



## robinb

castleri said:
			
		

> The thread is now back I believe and since it was brought back by the person with the points to rent hopefully does not violate the rules of the board.  Don't know if she has read this thread however.



I always do things the hard way !


----------



## Parkhopper13

Thanks for the informative post.  I will certainly be more aware and avoid Western Union transactions.


----------



## JimMIA

I have been involved in both of these situations behind the scenes, and I have not seen any behavior by the person renting/transferring points that has appeared fraudulent or unethical.  I have extensive experience investigating real fraud cases, and neither of these situations have ever looked fraudulent.  

What I have seen is a series of occurrances which have made two very level-headed customers seriously concerned about losing their money -- leading to their threads here.  Don't get me wrong -- I wouldn't rent from this person on a bet.  But my gut feeling in both situations has always been that this person has been dealing with some personal issues, rather than being out to rip someone off.

In the first case, all of the issues were eventually worked out, and the customer enjoyed their vacation last week.

In DMKEDM's case, when I confirmed that the same person was involved in both situations (at that point, I was *not* aware the first situation had been successfully completed), I notified Doc, who immediately attempted to contact the person by both email and PM.  

In less than three hours, Doc posted here that he had been in touch with the party and that a resolution had been agreed to.  Doc also subsequently posted that no DIS policies had been violated and that no action was warranted by the DIS.

I am hopeful that the person in question will follow through with her promise to refund DMKEDM's money, and that this situation will also be resolved favorably to all parties.

As I've said previously, however, I think we all need to realize that there is a huge difference between problematic and unethical/criminal.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Any news yet today?


----------



## JandD Mom

I've been following this thread and want to know too if this has been resolved!

Thanks to the OP for posting this.  For those who are worried about renting, you should take comfort in the fact that there are very few posts on DIS about people with problems renting. If you rent from someone with references, you should be fine.  I would say the vast majority of people here, while you may not agree with their opinions, are honest folks!


----------



## StaceySaulino

Just to make everyone a bit more nervous, I have a renter that I believe DMKEDM is using that rented me points as well.  I paid in full via Western Union yesterday (similar to DMKEDM running all around because I have no experience with Western Union), and have not yet seen a confirmation.  The rese is for Oct. 27th (next Friday).  It was a last minute trip.  I've called the renter several times, and e-mailed, begging her to get on a three way with me to talk to Disney to no avail.  I'm not saying she will not call, but I haven't heard yet and my husband is going nuts.  If this trip is cancelled due to this and my kids Halloween is ruined my life is going to be painful for a bit.  I'm sick over this and any help or nice posts would be great.  I'm afraid the renter may have rented DMKEDM and I the same bacth of points.  I only needed 82, so perhaps I'm wrong.  I know - I acted stupidly.  I've rented from individuals here before and all were so nice and easy to deal with.  I guess this is my fault.  Just can't believe someone would be dishonest in a situation like this.


----------



## mikesmom

Ohhh, man! I have no idea if this is the same person, but there is almost no way anyone could have rented you points and gotten you a ressie for the upcoming weekend. The place is pretty much sold out with a waitlist. If they rented you a confirmed reservation that's another story. 

If they did rent you something legit there is no way for them to send you a confirmation letter - DVC simply doesn't have time to get the paperwork done and sent. They would have a Confirmation number immediately they can give you.

Hope things turn out for you and the OP.


----------



## dianeschlicht

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Just to make everyone a bit more nervous, I have a renter that I believe DMKEDM is using that rented me points as well.  I paid in full via Western Union yesterday (similar to DMKEDM running all around because I have no experience with Western Union), and have not yet seen a confirmation.  The rese is for Oct. 27th (next Friday).  It was a last minute trip.  I've called the renter several times, and e-mailed, begging her to get on a three way with me to talk to Disney to no avail.  I'm not saying she will not call, but I haven't heard yet and my husband is going nuts.  If this trip is cancelled due to this and my kids Halloween is ruined my life is going to be painful for a bit.  I'm sick over this and any help or nice posts would be great.  I'm afraid the renter may have rented DMKEDM and I the same bacth of points.  I only needed 82, so perhaps I'm wrong.  I know - I acted stupidly.  I've rented from individuals here before and all were so nice and easy to deal with.  I guess this is my fault.  Just can't believe someone would be dishonest in a situation like this.


First of all, I don't think the money wire thing would be so unusual in a situation like yours where everything has to be done quickly.  There would be no printed confirmation available yet, but there WOULD be a confirmation number if she was able to get a ressie at all.  Keep trying to contact her and see if you can get that confirmation number.


----------



## JimMIA

mikesmom said:
			
		

> Ohhh, man! I have no idea if this is the same person


I do.  It is the same person.


----------



## diznyfanatic

Oh dear.  I really hope this all turns out okay for those involved, but this  doesn't bode very well at all I'm afraid.

Unless this second case was already an existing confirmed reservation where all that needed done was to switch names on the ressie, I agree with mikesmom that it would have been next to impossible to get a new reservation this late. 

I am keeping my fingers crossed for everyone involved that this all turns out okay.


----------



## kerieric

I just wanted to say that I believe that low post count is not necessarily a good indicator of untrustworthiness.  I have read posts on these boards for many years, although I rarely post.  I am too busy to post to every message to "improve" my post count.  I only post when I feel VERY strongly about a subject.  I have been a DVC member for almost 7 years.  I have also rented my points, but do so VERY rarely.  Actually until this past month, I last rented points 4 or 5 years ago.  I have not had problems with renters, but would be unable to provide "references" as I can't remember who rented my points 5 years ago.  I do believe that everyone on both sides of the rental issue should be cautious, but I also believe that the vast majority of people are honest.  I only rent my points when I absolutely cannot use them and,so, feel as if I am providing a service to offset my maintenace fees, etc. I urge everyone to be cautious before writing off any potential "rentee/renter" based on some ridiculous and arbitrary point such as the number of, sometimes meaningless, posts.
Good luck to all.
Keri


----------



## StaceySaulino

I do have a confirmation number.  It starts with a 3 and seems to be the right amount of characters long.  My main issue is I haven't seen the written confirmation from Disney (which wouldn't be here yet - too soon), but that coupled with the fact that I can't get a hold of her scares me.  Now I'm reading all of this on the board and just getting more and more upset.  Thanks all - I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## dumbo71

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> I do have a confirmation number.  It starts with a 3 and seems to be the right amount of characters long.  My main issue is I haven't seen the written confirmation from Disney (which wouldn't be here yet - too soon), but that coupled with the fact that I can't get a hold of her scares me.  Now I'm reading all of this on the board and just getting more and more upset.  Thanks all - I'll keep you all posted.




I hope it all works out for you.  At least you have a confirmation number (though that could be a phony).  JimMIA seems to be defending this person so I wouldn't sweat it.  Forgive me if I'm wrong but the renter seems a little on the flaky side rather than the fraudulent side.

Good luck to you.


----------



## DisneyMommyMichelle

i hope everything gets resolved for everyone involved!


----------



## Lewisc

It isn't clear in this thread if the person renting the points is actually the DVC owner.  I can see a potential problem if the actual owner didn't know their points were being rented, thought the reservation was actually being used by the niece.  Also an issue if the actual owner decides to sell their DVC interest.

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=14070993&postcount=1

I suggest DIS consider a policy prohibiting people renting points that they don't own.  Much more likely to present problems.  









			
				WebmasterDoc said:
			
		

> This is the ONLY time any irregularity has been reported regarding this person and they responded quickly when contacted. No board guidelines were violated and no other action is appropriate based on the information presently available.
> 
> As for others being banned for less, no one has EVER been banned from the R/T Board unless they violated site guidelines or R/T Board policies- in most cases several times after being warned. In all of those cases, the individual left the DIS no option except to remove posting privileges since they repeatedly violated board rules and policies - even after several warnings in some cases. There was a HUGE difference in this situation. My contact was merely an attempt to encourage resolution of the issue.
> 
> It's good to know of your strong feelings and support regarding banning posters for R/T Board activity.


----------



## wdwstar

I am sorry this happened to you too ! This problematic person has been very busy before, during and after her mother passing away.  If this problematic person had time to pick up your money from the WU during her mother passing then this person has plenty of time to call her renters back with the conf. #s / wiring money back. This is very sad


----------



## JimMIA

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> JimMIA seems to be defending this person so I wouldn't sweat it.


I wasn't defending her.  As a matter of fact, I said I wouldn't rent from her on a bet!

I was just saying that I have not seen any signs that she is intentionally trying to rip anyone off.  We're pretty quick to judge around here sometimes, and I was just trying to point out there are more likely explanations for her lousy customer relations.


----------



## wdwstar

> Just so we're clear here...I "know of" this person in precisely the way I "know of" her in DMKEDM's case -- from another problematic rental situation.





> She's definitely not "the right person" for me to do a transaction with, but I'm hopeful this works out for DMKEDM.



 I have to agree with JimMIA, it didnt look like he was defending problematic

after this thread is all done we will all "know of" problematic & she will definitely not " the right person" for all of us to do a transaction with  
unless we need alittle harrassment that day


----------



## DMKEDM

I've called Western Union twice today; both times they told me there was no wire transfer for me in their system. But, the renter/poster said she'd wire me the money "Monday" and "Monday" isn't over for another 6 hours. (It's 6 p.m. where I am, now)...

I'm hoping her trip to Western Union to return my money will in fact happen today, although maybe not until she finishes everything else she's doing (I see from other posts she has found someone else to deal with--I hope it all works out for her, too)...

WIll post in the morning (or later tonight if the money comes through by then)...


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

There is still hope for a positive outcome....  Thank you for keeping us posted.


----------



## wdwstar

Sending lots of pixie dust your way.....


----------



## JandD Mom

Unbelievable.  I am so angry at this lady, she has made many renters nervous when the vast majority of people on this board are honest.

I hope you get your money back from her.  If you don't there are many ways to go after this person for wire fraud.


----------



## byoung

Sorry you had this happen to you. We rented on EBAY from the same person before buying and never had a problem (4 times).


----------



## TiggerTails57

Good Luck!


----------



## Disney Hot Mama

It should be about 9 PM on your end now.
As someone who has rented points out 4 times (all in the last few months) I cannot believe you have had such difficulity.  I have read this entire thread and do hope everything turns out positively for you and your family.  I used a contract for all of my transactions, signed by both parties and when they felt comfortable after I gave them the reservation number and letter showing the reservation was in their name they paid me 1/2 upfront and then the remaining 1/2 60 days out.  I have done both personal checks and PayPal with no problems.  I think issues like this are in the minority for those considering renting points from us DVC'rs.  Don't write us all of just yet - 99% of the transactions go smoothly and it is just like life - most things go smoothly and a then there are a few bumps in the road.  I bet you have been offered points from someone on this thread and you will still have an enjoyable trip.

Karma comes back to haunt those of us who deserve......

Keep us posted please... 
Pixie dust being sent your way....


----------



## disneyfan2kids

Why were you renting 160 pts in the first place? You posted that (this past June) you just bought 150pt contract and they doubled your pts. when you purchased.

I'm just curious why you would turn around and rent 160 pts after acquiring 300 pts 

I truly don't mean to sound snippy...I just wonder why you would be renting so soon after purchasing DVC...couldn't you have just borrowed your pts from next year??


----------



## DMKEDM

First: I am fully ready to believe that most (even 99%) of the people on this board are honest and most of them are also considerate...I think I've posted before that I don't hold this bad experience against renting in general. I think  I pointed out (or at least I tried to) that I was describing the things I did wrong...in hopes of helping someone else who might be tempted to act as impulsively and rashly as I did...

Next, I'm not entirely sure it's anyone's business why I wanted the 160 points--but I don't mind telling: first, I didn't get "double points" when I bought, not two weeks ago, but in June...I did get 2006 points, which I used for a trip over T-giving 2006 (haven't taken the trip yet, but it's planned and our villa is reserved), and then for another one in January...then I reserved us a villa in May (yes, we love Disney--as just about everyone on this Board does, but no doubt I'm reacting with "new owner enthusiasm" or some such)...in any event, I have only a few points left until 2008. My son and I agreed when I bought the DVC membership that we would use it principally to continue the tradition we started 4 years ago of going to WDW for Thanksgiving...I don't have enough points left (w/out borrowing) for our 2007 T-giving trip...and we love the Beach Club ... we have two SSR trips and a BWV trip planned...when I saw BCV points, I thought I'd plan a "bang-up" BCV trip for my S & I (and possibly a friend or two) over T-giving...it was enough points to give us a whole week, in at least a one-bedroom (and possibly a two-bedroom)...

As noted, it was an impulsive (not to mention rash) decision. I still wish I could have gotten the points. I'd make the decision to rent the points again...it wasn't a change of heart about wanting the points (or, more accurately, the trip the points would have made possible); it was complete loss of trust/comfort in dealing with the person who is renting the points...

It's 9:20 p.m. here and there is no money for me at Western Union. I did get kind of a funky text message (I really don't know how to use text messaging, so it may be funky only because I don't know how to use it)...it is from a phone number w/the same area code & exchange, but it's a different phone number. It says only "I have to rerent points that you no longer" and then lists a phone number that is different from the one I was given last week.

I am guessing this means the renter/poster has decided not to return my money until/unless she gets money from someone else. BUt I really don't know. I've PM'ed her to tell her I don't understand why she can't return the money she said she would return...but haven't heard back.

I don't know how this will play out. There are options to pursue. But I'm not sure it does anyone any good for me to post about the steps I'm thinking about taking. And I'm still hoping she'll return the money (which I sent her Friday) either later tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## DisneyMommyMichelle

With the sounds of that text message, it only sounds as though this person is just coming up with excuses to not return the money  i'm sorry you are having such a bad exp.


----------



## JimMIA

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> There are options to pursue. But I'm not sure it does anyone any good for me to post about the steps I'm thinking about taking.


Most definitely *NOT*.


----------



## robinb

It sounds like she doesn't want to hold up her end of the bargain she made with Doc.  That's not a smart move if she wants to continue to rent here on the DIS.


----------



## drakethib

Sounds like she went out and blew your money.    

Man I hope this works out for you.


----------



## LisaS

On another thread she mentions she has financial problems. It's possible she no longer has the money she received from the OP so she has to re-rent the points to get the money to refund to the OP.


----------



## BlakeNJ

Let's all stay positive for DMKEDM! 

I have been following this thread for a few days now and it seems that this person is just a FLAKE!!!!!  It appears that they have rented their points in the past with some/not some success.  Let's hope this "person" is just a complete ding-bat and will "get around" to returning the money.  If they are sending text messages, at least they are still in contact--on the flip side, they could just never be heard from again but in this case, there seems to be some--even if little--contact being made.  People's priorities are different and some have little respect for others--seems like this is the case here.  Hopefully this will turn out for the best.

Although I am not a DVC owner (we are hoping to buy in November) this situation has not soured the idea of renting points for me--only made me wiser.  

Again, I am sorry this has happend to you DMKEDM and I hope for the best.

Blakely


----------



## robinb

LisaS said:
			
		

> On another thread she mentions she has financial problems. It's possible she no longer has the money she received from the OP so she has to re-rent the points to get the money to refund to the OP.


That's what I think too.  I just wonder why the PP can't be honest about it.  I think that DMKEDM, more than many of us, would be understanding while the PP re-rented the points.


----------



## JimMIA

robinb said:
			
		

> That's what I think too.  I just wonder why the PP can't be honest about it.  I think that DMKEDM, more than many of us, would be understanding while the PP re-rented the points.


 From her postings on the other thread, I don't think ***** even knows this thread exists!  

Hopefully these two situations will get cleared up soon.


----------



## Anjelica

but she loses her wallet, her mother dies and now she is having financial problems all within a few days.  Sorry - but either she is the most unluckiest person I have ever come upon or something just doesn't seem right....

Gosh I hope it works out for you soon...this just sucks so bad and I feel awful.


----------



## JandD Mom

Anjelica said:
			
		

> but she loses her wallet, her mother dies and now she is having financial problems all within a few days.  Sorry - but either she is the most unluckiest person I have ever come upon or something just doesn't seem right....
> 
> Gosh I hope it works out for you soon...this just sucks so bad and I feel awful.



I feel awful too.  But something's not right.  With so many problems on her plate, why even bother trying to rent out points?  I've done a little renting, and I am so worried my renters might not be able to reach me that I give them my cel number and tell them when I will be out of town!  And when I can't be reached, I don't make a promise to reserve a room for someone. 

So why would someone, with such awful luck, and no money, and no place to live, and apparently no bank account, but having points in her Aunt's name that she apparently paid for (I can't figure that one out???   ) undertake a rental she didn't have the ability to take care of?

I hope the OP gets her money back, but something is foul here...


----------



## 3DisneyKids

Just subbing...

Count me among the many who are wishing you well and a positive resolution to this!

And if that fails...heck, there are about 400 of us subscribed to this thread...we can all send you $2 to re-coup your cost!

I HATE hearing stories like this, but I think posting your experience has helped others...I will continue to wait for an update.


----------



## noname70

Said a prayer for you tonight


----------



## Olaf

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> I don't know how this will play out. There are options to pursue. But I'm not sure it does anyone any good for me to post about the steps I'm thinking about taking. And I'm still hoping she'll return the money (which I sent her Friday) either later tonight or tomorrow.



I hope you get your money back, too.  Nobody deserves to be treated like you've been treated.  You've been way more accomodating than I would have ever been.  I'm not buying the "My momma died" story, nor would I be interested in her financial problems.  You need to let her know you aren't messing around and that you're serious about getting your money back.  The time for being nice and understanding has passed.  Good luck.


----------



## Deesknee

Thank you so much for sharing in such a considerate manner. I haven't rented or traded at all yet, but have been considering it lately. Thanks so so much.


----------



## manning

WU has a policy. SHOW ID. I don't care how persuasive the OP was to the WU person, s/he (WU) did something wrong, violated POLICY.

PROCEED WITH A CLAIM WITH WESTERN UNION!!!

You may lose or win, but you will difinitely lose if you do not try.

If they deny your claim, which is their right, chalk it up to bad experience and move on. If you get your money back consider yourself lucky.

Good luck.


----------



## DMKEDM

It's 6 a.m. Tuesday; just called Western Union...there's no money there.

Some responses:  first, thanks for the continuing sympathy. It does help make me feel better. Second, to the poster who offered $2 from each DIS'er subscribed to "the thread"--thank you for the thought! I appreciate it...as is most likely true for all of us, money spent to do a vacation is not money needed for the mortgage or food or to pay bills...it's a loss that hurts and I won't be able to plan another trip until I recover from the loss--but as noted in an earlier post, it's not our "once in a lifetime" trip or anything like that. It could be worse. (And is for one other poster whose Halloween trip is at risk)...finally, truly, Western Union has done absolutely nothing wrong...they didn't just give the money to the renter/poster who didn't have an ID--they required a "test question" from me, and other identifying information...I had to authorize giving out the money w/out an ID...it's my doing, not Western Union's, that she got the money I sent w/out an ID...

Thanks again for the moral support, the ideas & suggestions, and the interest you-all are showing. I will follow up (but think I shouldn't say what I'm planning to do), and will let you know how this all plays out. And to anyone reading this who is thinking about renting (either to give or to get points): I truly honestly believe this could have been avoided had I taken reasonable precautions and acted with reasonable care. I didn't. I don't think the rental process, via the R/T Board, is "the problem." Truly, you do need to take some care and proceed with some caution. But as many, many posters have pointed out--vast numbers of rental agreements go through, to the benefit of both parties to the transaction, with little or no hassle or difficulty. Renting can be a really good thing for both sides of the transaction, and most of the time it is. So while there are lessons to be learned from this icky experience, it won't stop me from trying again (more wisely!) in the future...altho I probably (hopefully certainly) won't act as impulsively or rashly as I did this time!


----------



## NARM Forever

I was rather hoping, when I saw your name that there would be a good story to report, I'm still really hopeful for you!  Thank you so much for sharing this with us all and hope that the warm wishes that everyone is sending you helps a little during this trying time.


----------



## castleri

JimMIA said:
			
		

> From her postings on the other thread, I don't think ***** even knows this thread exists!
> 
> Hopefully these two situations will get cleared up soon.



I think you are correct - she was busy poting to that thread defending herself about that rental at 6 pm yesterday when she could have been contacting OP.  That rental apparently ended okay so let's hope this situation does also.


----------



## wdwstar

reading about the text message you received, makes me believe PP will only return your money if PP finds another family to catch in her web of lies or laziness. I would think about giving PP a call and find out what is going on, 
if PP gives you excuses, i would tell PP, she needs to either WU your money back today or transfer 80 points into your account by doing a three way call.
i would not give PP anymore info about you or your dvc account. MS will block PP out when you give ms your account info,  PP wont even hear you, just make sure MS does block PP , i hate to have you get a new MS and she doesnt block PP from hearing. Tell PP she needs to do this today no excuses or you will be forced to contact authorities.  Then at least if PP agrees to the 80 points transfer you will be soooooo done with PP. 

I   cant believe this woman (PP) has the nerve to tell you, you have to wait until she gets another renter. bull**** !   Did i just say that.... sorry !


----------



## chris1gill

LisaS said:
			
		

> On another thread she mentions she has financial problems. It's possible she no longer has the money she received from the OP so she has to re-rent the points to get the money to refund to the OP.



I'm just curious where the other thread is?

I'm still hoping the OP has a positive outcome here....  Sending lots of pixie dust here


----------



## StaceySaulino

Hi All, 

I'm the other person this particular renter has been dealing with and I have bad news.  I called the resort yesterday and tried to verify the reservation nubmer she provided.  The number is bad and they have no reservation in my name or the renters.  I called her last night to discuss, still hoping the rese number was one digit off or something.  She avoided all my calls and sent me a test message at 1 am telling me my rese was cancelled because I called her to many times.  

My husband was great - he's wonderful.  I used his bonus to book and blew it.  I feel terrible.  The money won't break the bank, but the feeling of letting my husband, 7 and 2 year old down is really bothering me.  We decided not to go now because it's to late to pull off an Oct. 27th trip, plus it would just be spoiled after all this.  She put a damper on our "happy place", but we'll get over it in time.  Now I just need to figure out how to cancel (If I can) Not So Scary Halloween tickets, as well as postpone or cancel airline tickets.  What a mess.  It's going to cost me much more than the 820 she stole.


----------



## tomandrobin

Really saddens us to read this thread. 

I certainly hope there is a better ending then where it stands now. 

I do hope something can be done to get your money back. I would think that the police can investigate and form a case against them.

We hoping for the best for you and your family!


----------



## JandD Mom

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> I'm the other person this particular renter has been dealing with and I have bad news.  I called the resort yesterday and tried to verify the reservation nubmer she provided.  The number is bad and they have no reservation in my name or the renters.  I called her last night to discuss, still hoping the rese number was one digit off or something.  She avoided all my calls and sent me a test message at 1 am telling me my rese was cancelled because I called her to many times.
> 
> My husband was great - he's wonderful.  I used his bonus to book and blew it.  I feel terrible.  The money won't break the bank, but the feeling of letting my husband, 7 and 2 year old down is really bothering me.  We decided not to go now because it's to late to pull off an Oct. 27th trip, plus it would just be spoiled after all this.  She put a damper on our "happy place", but we'll get over it in time.  Now I just need to figure out how to cancel (If I can) Not So Scary Halloween tickets, as well as postpone or cancel airline tickets.  What a mess.  It's going to cost me much more than the 820 she stole.



 

I am so upset at this whole thread, though given all of the "my dog ate my homework" excuses we have seen on both threads, I am not suprised. 

If indeed she "cancelled" your reservation (assuming it ever existed), then she owes you your money back.    

I have to say the obvious:  I doubt there was a reservation to cancel.  If she cancelled in under 30 days, the points would be in a holding account, and there is no way this person would be able to deal with that scenario.


----------



## chris1gill

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> ur "happy place", but we'll get over it in time.  Now I just need to figure out how to cancel (If I can) Not So Scary Halloween tickets, as well as postpone or cancel airline tickets.  What a mess.  It's going to cost me much more than the 820 she stole.



Stacey, I'm so sorry   Don't cancel anything yet, maybe you can make this trip happen regardless... Can you get on Priceline & try to get a room for even 30.00 a night & stay off site?  What about a value resort? Someone here might be able to come up with something even though it's last minute...

People like this renter should be sucked from this planet    I am so sorry...


----------



## DMKEDM

Stacey: We all feel so bad for you...personally, I think the "hit" to you is worse than the "hit" was to me...I so hope she figures out how to get your money back to you, and my money back to me...an earlier poster said there have been good and positive ebay dealings w/this person...maybe that will be a route she can use to solve her problems and reimburse us?? We can only hope...

I'm so glad your husband wasn't mad at you (or at least didn't take it out on you!)...and while you need to make your own choices based on what's best for you, I would hope you can find a way to take your trip after all...maybe one of the family suites at a All Star Music (they look really cool to me)? Yes, it's more money (and it's easy for me to suggest spending your money! Grin)...but it is possible she'll get us our money back, after some delays and lots of stress...since you already have plane tix and park passes and NSSHP tix, maybe it would be worth taking the chance on spending the extra money?

I know how much better it makes me feel to read the sympathetic responses here on this board, so hopefully these responses will make you feel better, too...

Sending vast gobs of pixie dust your way, and SO hoping you get your money back (and that I get mine back, too)!


----------



## wdwstar

StaceySaulino   Its to early for the resort to have your conf. number/ ressies.
DVC ressies are only conf. by MS until a few days (3 or 4 ) then the resort will have your ressies in the system.   

If the PP text message you and told you she canceled the ressies because you called her to many times, that is strange.    

PP maybe taking your funds and giving it to the OP   
Good for the OP, bad for you. what will this solve   
that just tells you both what you are dealing with.......  

I would contact the OP in this thread, you both should contact the OP in the other thread that PP did this too and get her aunts info to contact the aunt
and i would contact the police, and who ever else you have to contact.

I wonder if there is anyone else out there that PP did this too


----------



## DMKEDM

Despite it all (both to me and to StaceySaulito), I'm not yet ready to call this person a thief/embezzler/fraud artist. There's still some possibility (possibly remote) that she will return our money...

BUt I wanted to let everyone know she has NOT returned my money, so I'm not the unwitting recipient of StaceySaulito's money!)

I will be taking "next steps" later today. I will not post what they will be. But I do not intend to simply "fade quietly into the night"...

Thanks again for the sympathy, support, prayers & pixie dust...


----------



## sajetto

OP, I've just gone through EVERY page on this thread and I'm sending tons of pixie dust to you and Stacy in hopes that you both get the outcomes you deserve


----------



## JandD Mom

Everyone, be careful.

If you look at the other thread carefully, in the middle, it looks like the "Problematic renter" logged on with a different screen name, posted, logged out, and logged in again and left a similar, longer message.  The person with the "potentially mistaken" screen name (someone with only 3 posts to their name), also posted yesterday on the rent/trade board that they have 200 BCV points to rent.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Thanks for all the kinds words from everyone.  I'm not sure what to do at this point about the trip.  I'll try to convince my hubby to go and we'll see.  I think my Not So Scary tickets are non-refundable.  I just got off with Disney and they said they don't refund tickets, but did give me another number to try further.  I'm sick to my stomach, but you are all making me feel much better.  I have tears in my eyes from the generous and kind people on this board.  Thanks so much and I'll keep you all posted.  Maybe both of us in this boat will get a resolution.  I'll keep praying.


----------



## Tamar

This thread makes me so sad...I feel for you guys, and I am fervently hoping that karma strikes this woman (or if not karma, then some well placed bird droppings).


----------



## intheworks

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Despite it all (both to me and to StaceySaulito), I'm not yet ready to call this person a thief/embezzler/fraud artist. There's still some possibility (possibly remote) that she will return our money...
> 
> BUt I wanted to let everyone know she has NOT returned my money, so I'm not the unwitting recipient of StaceySaulito's money!)
> 
> I will be taking "next steps" later today. I will not post what they will be. But I do not intend to simply "fade quietly into the night"...
> 
> Thanks again for the sympathy, support, prayers & pixie dust...




I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but you can also report this individual for internet fraud since this transaction started thru the internet. There is a place on the FBI's website to do this, and a couple of other agencies as well. Used to have the links but deleted them. Go to ebay, click on communities,message boards, then safeharbor. All the links to report this is easily found there. Good luck.


----------



## Ms. WDW

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Despite it all (both to me and to StaceySaulito), I'm not yet ready to call this person a thief/embezzler/fraud artist. There's still some possibility (possibly remote) that she will return our money...



You're too kind.  I definately would call what this person did to you and to StaceySaulito fraud. Not to hear back is totally *unacceptable.*  I occasionally rent and I'm in constant contact with my renters until the deal is closed and they are on their way to WDW.  Maybe that's why year after year I get messages asking if I have any leftover points!  They trust me.  And I feel really bad when I have to tell them "not this year".

I truely hope this works out for both of you.  It saddens me to think that on this board which brings sooooo much happiness to "most" hidden away somewhere are people who's only thought is to "steal from others"; and that's just what this is.

Pixi Dust to you both.


----------



## RadioFanatic

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> I'm the other person this particular renter has been dealing with and I have bad news.  I called the resort yesterday and tried to verify the reservation nubmer she provided.  The number is bad and they have no reservation in my name or the renters.  I called her last night to discuss, still hoping the rese number was one digit off or something.  She avoided all my calls and sent me a test message at 1 am telling me my rese was cancelled because I called her to many times.
> 
> My husband was great - he's wonderful.  I used his bonus to book and blew it.  I feel terrible.  The money won't break the bank, but the feeling of letting my husband, 7 and 2 year old down is really bothering me.  We decided not to go now because it's to late to pull off an Oct. 27th trip, plus it would just be spoiled after all this.  She put a damper on our "happy place", but we'll get over it in time.  Now I just need to figure out how to cancel (If I can) Not So Scary Halloween tickets, as well as postpone or cancel airline tickets.  What a mess.  It's going to cost me much more than the 820 she stole.




Oh, stacy, I'm so sorry - that's horrendous!  What an awful renter.  I have had a wonderful experience too, but with a contract and references.  Good luck to you.

I'm interested in the location of the other thread as well and wish the OP luck.


----------



## twinklebug

JandD Mom said:
			
		

> Everyone, be careful.
> 
> If you look at the other thread carefully, in the middle, it looks like the "Problematic renter" logged on with a different screen name, posted, logged out, and logged in again and left a similar, longer message.  The person with the "potentially mistaken" screen name (someone with only 3 posts to their name), also posted yesterday on the rent/trade board that they have 200 BCV points to rent.



I'm going to second this. 
I know this makes it very hard for 1st time renters, but if you're thinking of renting, PLEASE ask for references before dealing with these folk!


----------



## dianeschlicht

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to decieve!!!  This thread is just getting worse and worse.  I do think both folks burned on this thread by the PP should pool their efforts and get resolution for BOTH of them.  Legal and criminal are two ways, but I do agree that contacting the "real" owner of the points (the aunt???) is another step that could be taken.  I just don't know how you would go about finding that information.


----------



## JandD Mom

The real owner of the points may not even have any idea that their name is being used by this person.  The deeds are public records that can be found on the internet.  There is a lot of information on those deeds.

Do we really think that someone without a home, car, job or bank account plunked down thousands of dollars to buy a DVC contract in her Aunt's name?


----------



## robinb

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Despite it all (both to me and to StaceySaulito), I'm not yet ready to call this person a thief/embezzler/fraud artist. There's still some possibility (possibly remote) that she will return our money...



I agree.  I think that we should try to chill out and let the PP work it out with her renters.  If we continue to call the PP names and accuse her of things it may negatively effect both renters.  I sincerely hope that the PP will reach out to them today and make things right.


----------



## Lewisc

We don't have the slightest idea what's going on.  It's certainly possible the DVC Owner transferred her points to her aunt just prior to getting into financial difficulty (losing her job).





			
				JandD Mom said:
			
		

> The real owner of the points may not even have any idea that their name is being used by this person.  The deeds are public records that can be found on the internet.  There is a lot of information on those deeds.
> 
> Do we really think that someone without a home, car, job or bank account plunked down thousands of dollars to buy a DVC contract in her Aunt's name?


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> I will be taking "next steps" later today. I will not post what they will be. But I do not intend to simply "fade quietly into the night"...


I am so glad that you are not going to let this go unanswered and unresolved. I will be thinking about you and Stacey today.


----------



## DisneyMommyMichelle

i'm sorry to see nothing got resolved  i was hoping this morning would bring good news.  hug to the OP and all others caught in this nasty net.


----------



## DMKEDM

My personal opinion (for what it's worth, which may be nothing!) is that a low post count is NOT a  reason to avoid a renter...we all have to start somewhere...and as someone pointed out, I've got a low post count, too (or at least I did before all this started--grin!)...

It's a sign that some further caution may be required...to be sure the person knows how to do a rental agreement/transfer, for example. But just because someone is new to posting doesn't necessarily mean they're new to renting. And even if they're new to renting, that doesn't mean they haven't done their research and know how to do what they're offering to do...and even if they're new and learning as they go, good communication between the person offering the points and the person wanting to rent the points will solve most problems...

So, to me, a low post count is just one factor to consider when deciding whether to go forward.

I also feel compelled to point out that this "PP" has a history of difficult, but ultimately successful, rentals...The VogelFamily DID get their vacation on the PP's rented points. A previous poster noted he'd rented from her four times (via ebay), successfully. It may well be that she's learning a hard lesson here, too...that a successful rental agreement requires more communication than she thought necessary. Maybe she's feeling defensive now. There's certainly evidence to support hope that she will in fact return both my money and StaceySaulito's...just not as quickly as we think is warranted. 

The whole point of this thread, originally, was NOT to "trash" a problem poster, but to point out the kinds of steps that can be taken that can avoid this type of problem. I do see the danger here of so "attacking" the PP that she throws up her hands and "runs away." She still has a chance to make good on her promises and to do the right thing. She may still do so. There's no way, even if Disboards would allow me to, that I'd post the kind of linked post that has been suggested. To me, until and unless she actually welsches on her promise to return my money (and StaceySaulito has to make her own decision on this), that would be unfair and unwarranted. 

Anyway...we'll see what happens. I used to tell my son when he was little that we need to learn how to practice "the P word" (patience)...this has yet to play out to its end. There's still more hope than not that the "PP" will return my money (and Stacey's)...I'm not going to start accusing her of crimes until I'm certain a crime has been/will be committed. Right now, she appears to me to be more likely to be guilty of being inconsiderate and "difficult" than criminal...


----------



## my4kids

I have not read this whole thread, but did anyone else notice that the person with the current poster that I referred to on a previous post accidently linked herself to the Vogel thread ?  It ws like she logged in under the wrong user name, then realized and logged in under a different user name and post the same comment?  I found this by looking at her 3 whole posts.


----------



## StaceySaulino

I am so teary eyed at the generosity of the people on this board.  I truely appreicate all the nice notes.  Can't thank you all enough.  I'm am still hoping for a resolution, and without getting the mods mad, I'm hoping something will break today.  I will keep you all posted!


----------



## robinb

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> I am so teary eyed at the generosity of the people on this board.  I truely appreicate all the nice notes.  Can't thank you all enough.  I'm am still hoping for a resolution, and without getting the mods mad, I'm hoping something will break today.  I will keep you all posted!


Hey Stacey!  Check your PMs (Private Messages).  There should be a link in the upper right corner of this page.


----------



## chris1gill

my4kids said:
			
		

> I have not read this whole thread, but did anyone else notice that the person with the current poster that I referred to on a previous post accidently linked herself to the Vogel thread ?  It ws like she logged in under the wrong user name, then realized and logged in under a different user name and post the same comment?  I found this by looking at her 3 whole posts.



I noticed that inconsistency, but I thought the most recent poster was an additional "client" of the PP? Not the same person who started the other thread... the person that started the other thread seems to have completed their vacation successfully...

You know, I've rented out my points on occasion, and I was always so concerned for my renters, I made sure they knew how to contact me & I even gave them the dates I myself would be away & where I would be during those times so that they could contact me if they should need to...  I think DVC owners run the gamut in this regard, but I think communication is just the absolute key to having a successful rental history....


----------



## my4kids

Nevermind - I am erasing this post due to the fact that I have no facts and received a lot of PM"S - Good luck to all.


----------



## dumbo71

my4kids said:
			
		

> I'm unsubscribing from this whole conversation.  The more I look at the posts and previous posts (and post counts) of people involved here...somethings stinks and its not just the original situation.  And any generous people who were looking at group resolution to the problem should do a little reading first.




Would you mind dropping me a pm if you dont want to disclose here?  Not sure what you have found but I'd love to know.

OP it is just as I thought.  Surprise, surprise no money.  This should make everyone very cautious who they rent through.  I've rented in the past (not on the Dis) and I went out of my way to be accomodating and make the rentee feel at ease.  I, of course, used a clear cut contract that protects both parties.  Renting really is a leap of faith on both ends.  Best to go with someone who has a proven track record of satisfied customers.  

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.  Maybe a little more prodding from Doc is in order?

I wonder if JimMIA would recommend taking additional steps at this point?

Disclaimer:  I know longer rent anywhere.  Ity simply wasn't worth it to me any longer.  I downsized my points FOR NOW.  Darn that AKV!!!!!!!!  With the recent rule changes people should really focus on what they will PERSONALLY use, point wise, IMO. I aklso see a real conflict of interests when someone posts and rents on the same board.


----------



## chris1gill

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> Disclaimer:  I know longer rent anywhere.  Ity simply wasn't worth it to me any longer.  I downsized my points FOR NOW.  Darn that AKV!!!!!!!!  With the recent rule changes people should really focus on what they will PERSONALLY use, point wise, IMO.



Dumbo, our story is just as yours, we recently sold some of our points off as our vacationing habits have changed.... but darn that AKV... I will not buy points, I will not buy points.....

Back to the topic, sorry OP....


----------



## Glorydaz

to the OP's - hoping everything turns out in your favor , maybe the renter will see the error of her ways and make good asap...


Michelle


----------



## twinklebug

I think what's confusing is there seem to be 2 people who've rented who are having problems with 2 different renters, which may be the same person. In addition, this "owner" may have created multiple aliases and be attempting to rent to yet another person... or not.    New people join the DIS every day and we can't be suspect of them all... it's not the Disney way   

What I'm confused about is one situation is a straight foward rental gone bad while the other seems to be... correct me where I'm wrong... a rental from a non-owner (perhaps II? or ?) changing the name to the new renter.

All I can say is "Oh Flubber!" Must be time for coffee.
Editing... had my coffee... Stacy's situation is starting to make more sense, it's not II, but the transfer of name had confused me.

I really have nothing more to contribute to this thread (like I ever did? LOL) so I'm just going to wish both parties the best and cross my fingers for them.


----------



## disneyokw

I'm very, very sorry to hear about your misfortune.  I have not read everyones response back to you, but for me personally I would go to a website like www.intellius.com to see who the phone number belongs too.  I think it costs $14.95.  Or something like US Search.  There are so many search engines out there to track people.  I have links at my home computer that have helped me in the past.  You would not believe the information you can buy on someone.  Their Even if it is a cell phone number they provide a name and possibly a town.  Then you can search for this person.  I personally would file a police report with the town she lives in.  Find out from Western Union what they do with fraud.  Maybe on their end they can investigate.  Keep us posted.  I am now going to read what everyone wrote to you.  I truly hope you get your money back.  And hopefully more money for pain and suffering.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

I've read both threads in their entirety and don't see anything strange other than it appears we have someone that rents out their aunt's points (who knows why!) that has developed a history of not being very reliable or forthcoming with information and is very difficult to contact.  She has admitted to being financial unstable (probably why the points were rented in the first place) and seems to have backed herself into a corner by already spending the proceeds from DMKEDM's rental and now does not have the money to return.  To get the funds, it looks like she rented the points to StaceySaulino (who has been extremely concerned given the facts revealed through the two threads going), and has made her situation even worse.  I honestly don't feel the person involved is trying to cheat anyone.  I think her life is just totally screwed up and she keeps digging her hole deeper, and deeper.  In our efforts to help, we may have actually created even more problems for DMKEDM and StaceySaulino, by making the third party feel she has no where to turn.  It is my hope that she will just contact all the parties involved and resolve the matter.  There's still a chance Stacey's family could use the ressie, all they need is a confirmation with their name on it.  If not, it might take a few months to refund all the money...but it needs to happen!


----------



## dianeschlicht

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> I've read both threads in their entirety and don't see anything strange other than it appears we have someone that rents out their aunt's points (who knows why!) that has developed a history of not being very reliable or forthcoming with information and is very difficult to contact.  She has admitted to being financial unstable (probably why the points were rented in the first place) and seems to have backed herself into a corner by already spending the proceeds from DMKEDM's rental and now does not have the money to return.  To get the funds, it looks like she rented the points to StaceySaulino (who has been extremely concerned given the facts revealed through the two threads going), and has made her situation even worse.  I honestly don't feel the person involved is trying to cheat anyone.  I think her life is just totally screwed up and she keeps digging her hole deeper, and deeper.  In our efforts to help, we may have actually created even more problems for DMKEDM and StaceySaulino, by making the third party feel she has no where to turn.  It is my hope that she will just contact all the parties involved and resolve the matter.  There's still a chance Stacey's family could use the ressie, all they need is a confirmation with their name on it.  If not, it might take a few months to refund all the money...but it needs to happen!


Very good post and one that should be heeded.


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

I've read through this whole thread and I don't see anything "stinky" about it except for the situation in general. I do think DMKEDM is right that coming down on the PP may end up being a more adverse situation than if she hadn't posted her story in the first place. DMKEDM is in a tough situation because the transaction involved was a transfer. All she can really do there is try to work through the situation...she can't work with disney on that one at all. 

StaceySaulito's situation is also difficult because there wasn't any way to confirm her reservation even with the best of "landlords". Knowing that she was working with a difficult one had to make it even harder. 

Ultimately though this is a "Buyer Beware" situation (or BB!  ). I think at times the Disboards forgets that because of all the pixie dust floating around. There isn't anything the board monitors should do beyond banning the PP if she can't resolve her issues. Not enough time has elapsed in either instance to say anything more has gone wrong beyond really bad customer service.  I think people are riled up to the degree they are because this is the internet. In dealing with renting from an individual one needs factor in the chance that stuff happens and maybe the transaction can't turn around with the speed a corporation delivers. You also need to realize you are gambling that the transaction wont happen at all.


----------



## DisneyFunfor3

Wow...just read all 14 pages....here's hoping for the best, but I do have one question.  If the person who is causing some/all    (how ever you want to view it) the problems is continuing to post and advertise her (or someone elses   ) 200 points for rent, why isn't the moderator stopping her?  Can she be banned?

I get that the Rent/Trade board is a convience, and it is always buyer beware, but, can't you call a spade a spade and say enough?

JMHO!


----------



## wdwstar

> BUt I wanted to let everyone know she has NOT returned my money, so I'm not the unwitting recipient of StaceySaulito's money!)




DMKEDM

I didnt say you got the funds from PP, I was just saying as Flakey as PP is 
who knows what she is going to do or not do........

I really feel bad for both of you & i think you both need to be very careful with dealing with this person.

and with both of your stories has warned alot of people "not" to deal with this individual.


----------



## steve and julie

twinklebug said:
			
		

> Steve, that's very generous, but I thought the rules only allow owners to do one transfer in/out per UY. She'd never be able to compile them into one use group. Hugs for trying!



Yes the new rule change, was just try to help both of them.
I really enjoy being part of the I call it the disney clan. Well good luck to both of you guys.
Take care steve


----------



## JandD Mom

DisneyFunfor3 said:
			
		

> Wow...just read all 14 pages....here's hoping for the best, but I do have one question.  If the person who is causing some/all    (how ever you want to view it) the problems is continuing to post and advertise her (or someone elses   ) 200 points for rent, why isn't the moderator stopping her?  Can she be banned?
> 
> I get that the Rent/Trade board is a convience, and it is always buyer beware, but, can't you call a spade a spade and say enough?
> 
> JMHO!



In defense of the Rent/Trade Mods, they are usually really on top of things.  Doc is currently at OKW now, hopefully enjoying DVC as much as we do.  Caskbill is likely working or busy or overwhelmed in Docs absence.  so I would not put any blame on them


----------



## Beca

Stacey...I am SOOO sorry!!!

...and MAD!!!

Where in your "contract" did it say you had a limit on how many times you could call??!!!  And, she seems to have made and "cancelled" the ressie pretty darn fast!!

I too, would not have been concerned with the resort not having my info, it is still too early for that.  But...for her to actually "SAY" she cancelled it???!!!

I have ONE word for you....fraud....I would certainly take this woman to small claims court for ALL the expenses you are out.  Unless, you can find an offsite hotel via priceline or hotwire....I'm sure there are no DVC resorts available at this time.


----------



## skibum

Stacey -

I hope you still go.  Don't let these actions stop the magic.  Hopefully you will get your money back, but if you don't go you will lose even more money in change fees and non-refundable tickets, and the magic!

Pixie dust to you and OP.


----------



## wdwstar

Stacey  I just checked AAA and all-star sport, music, pop $84.15 plus tax
caribbean beach $148.75 plus tax
coronado springs, french quarters, riverside $131.75 plus tax


----------



## StaceySaulino

Thanks for the hotel info.  I'm going to try and convince my hubby to actually still go.  Thanks all for being so nice.  I'll keep everyone updated.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Beca said:
			
		

> And, she seems to have made and "cancelled" the ressie pretty darn fast!!



Do you supposed she realized after-the-fact that there wasn't availability for the dates Stacey needed?  It would create an "easy out" to turn things around and try to blame the renter instead.

Come on "She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" -- What's really going on?  If you'd just come clean about the status of these ressies, I feel certain there could be some type of amicable solution.  Please, please, please...just call the parties affected and work something out instead of hiding out and sending sporadic text messages.


----------



## Zoemakes5

I just searched the Disney website and for 10/27-11/1 (which are just the dates I plugged in, remembering that Stacey said 10/27) I do find a number of openings on site.   Allstars is running $112 per night w/out any discounts.  Hotels.com has Hilton in DtD for $109.  The BW in DtD is going for $86.  The Royal Plaza for 98.99.   Mousesavers might have some deals.  If at all possible, Stacey, don't give up your dream.  Frankly, at this point, you'd probably pretty close to the difference by not going, when you have to mess with flights and stuff.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Someone else already posted that a DVC reservation would not be at the resort until about 3-4 days before the start of the reservation.  So if Stacy called the resort, they would not have any reservation at this point.  That doesn't mean that it no longer exists.  It may still be there, but she won't be able to check on it until about 10/22 or 10/23.


----------



## manning

Thought I posted this hear but don't see it. I apologize if it is double post.

This may be the solution for future transactions

https://www.escrow.com/index.asp


----------



## JandD Mom

manning said:
			
		

> Thought I posted this hear but don't see it. I apologize if it is double post.
> 
> This may be the solution for future transactions
> 
> https://www.escrow.com/index.asp



I am sorry, but I don't agree that this is necessarily the solution for future transactions.  I don't want to knock the OP, but there are many other red flags here.  Some that have been named:

1.  Don't rent from someone with only a couple of posts and no history on the DIS boards, or someone who can't provide you with satisfactory references.

2.  Don't rent from someone who will only take payment via Western Union wire transfer.

3.  Don't rent from someone with no ID to pick up said transfer thereby allowing them to get the money without being traced.

4.  Don't rent from someone who isn't the DVC owner themselves.

5.  Don't rent from someone who you can't reach easily, or who threatens you with cancellation (or cancels) because you call too much.

I don't think the escrow idea is a bad idea, I just think the majority of the time, it would not be needed.


----------



## DisneyMommyMichelle

Stacey i hope you guys still go and have fun :


----------



## DisneyFunfor3

Sorry...didn't mean to blame anyone (other than the person who has all the money and is not following through on reservations).  I'm just asking what the policies are?  Since there was apparently some "agreement" with the moderator that was not honored, can she be banned?  

Also wanted to add my condolences to the OP and the other lady that was hoodwinked by the person with the points.  If what I'm reading is correct, she is still trying to rent on the Boards...this is what leads me to that ...can't she be banned...statement?


----------



## tacomaranch

I did go and read the entire Vogel thread to find out who this person is so I could know and be warned!

I feel so bad for everyone. Yes, life is hard, bad things happen to good people, but it how this R person handles it that makes her who she is.  I pray all have a good outcome and R perosn realizes that she is just digging deeper and deeper.  

IMO, she should contact Steve and Julie and this poor man and be truthful about herself, the money, etc.  She should beg forgiveness and make arrangements to make this right.  Karma, it does all come back!

Or as my DH says, no good deed goes unpunished.

I pray this all works out and I will on the look out for R person and pray I don't get banned. 

Just read the Vogel, hold my hand post and then you will know "she who must not be named" is.


----------



## kidsister

Hi ...I've rented (before my purchase of resale DVC points closed) and I've been a renter of points also.

In any event , I'm so sorry that you've had this problem. It seems that it wouldn't be in violation of board policy for you to post on the renter's thread that you were less than satisfied with the transaction. Yes, this poster could try to post with an alias, but hopefully there might be something the DIS could do if she is posting on the same IP under a different name.

Here's my best thought re the OP issue: 
Instead of waiting around for this person to maybe rent out the points to someone else and then maybe refund your $800...I think you should do a 3 way call to MS and complete the transfer and THEN send her the balance due. If she is sincere, then she shouldn't have any problem with this.  In a 3 way call with Disney, you will be able to hear HER story and if the points are there, then they can be immediately transferred to your account and then you are done with it. AFTER the transfer, she can't get her points back...so it would be safe to send her the balance due and her financial problems (if this is real) are solved.

So THAT is my best suggestion and it could be accomplished yet today.
IF she isn't willing to do this, then you KNOW it is a fraud and you should act accordingly.

For the other person who might have been defrauded.....when you paid for your ressie, did you call MS and check to make sure there was a ressie in your name before paying?  If you don't own, then it seems that someone who does own could call and check on that ressie with MS for you. My renters always get a copy of the ressie in their name and tho they can't call anymore, they certainly have something on paper and can call MS to check to make sure that the ressie is still in their name (or again, they can have a member call for them.). I'd certainly be willing to try to track down this ressie for you if you have the info sent from Disney re your ressie.

While I hate to hae someone be called a fraud BEFORE there is enough evidence to call them one....the 3 way call to DIsney re the transfer of points is certainly feasible and a quick way to find out if there actually ARE points in this person's account.  If NOT, then selling points that aren't there is certainly a good case for fraud.

And while I hope it doesn't come to this...if the renter doesnt' make good, I'm sure there is an active DISmember that lives in the vicinity of that area code that might take an interest in helping OP


----------



## LIFERBABE

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> Someone else already posted that a DVC reservation would not be at the resort until about 3-4 days before the start of the reservation.  So if Stacy called the resort, they would not have any reservation at this point.  That doesn't mean that it no longer exists.  It may still be there, but she won't be able to check on it until about 10/22 or 10/23.



And wouldnt they have told her this when she called?  

I know I have been told this by the resort when I called too early, not understanding why she was told otherwise.

I am sorry for the stress these transactions with this particular renter has caused.  No one should have to go thru this.  

That said, the system is not broke, the PP is.  As an honest renter of points, I would just caution, that many of these "solutions" are not going to be worthwhile of honest DVC Members time.  I for one will not do Escrow.  I am not waiting until someone completes their vacation to receive my money.  I just had a renter return from WDW and we had a great experience, one of many.  It's all about communication and your gut.  If it doesnt feel right, don't do it.
I will find other uses for my excess points, before I jump thru hoops because of what someone else did.  It really is sad


----------



## robinb

kidsister said:
			
		

> For the other person who might have been defrauded.....when you paid for your ressie, did you call MS and check to make sure there was a ressie in your name before paying? If you don't own, then it seems that someone who does own could call and check on that ressie with MS for you.


 Member services will now only speak to the owner of the points about a reservation.  They will not talk to the renter and they will not talk to another owner.


----------



## Beca

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> Someone else already posted that a DVC reservation would not be at the resort until about 3-4 days before the start of the reservation.  So if Stacy called the resort, they would not have any reservation at this point.  That doesn't mean that it no longer exists.  It may still be there, but she won't be able to check on it until about 10/22 or 10/23.



Yes, but the PP (why are we all calling her that?  What does PP mean?) admitted that she HAD cancelled the ressie (or, more likely never had one to begin with).


----------



## diznyfanatic

Beca said:
			
		

> Yes, but the PP (why are we all calling her that?  What does PP mean?) admitted that she HAD cancelled the ressie (or, more likely never had one to begin with).



Thank you for asking that question Beca.  I don't know what that means either.


----------



## Disneyhappy

I have not read through the whole post but if there is still any suspicion that this person is a scammer (and based on my experience in dealing with fraud), you need to contact the police as the longer you wait, the colder the trail becomes.  Also, I am pretty sure that most ,if not all, Western Unions have surveillance cameras but they may recycle every day, other day, weekly, monthly, etc. Sounds like you are able to pinpoint the exact time of the transaction so the woman would be easy to pick out on the surveillance video footage. That is more evidence for the police but it could be gone if you do not act quickly. The police should have a separate unit or referral for internet related fraud. In fact, it might be regulated by the Federal Government. I'll have to ask my next door neighbor who is an FBI agent.  My niece was taken in by a similar, but more sophisticated, scam and did not have as many leads that the victims on this thread may have.  My stomach literally feels ill when I read about this stuff happening to trusting people like the great DIS posters we have here. I wish you the best of luck that everything works out but, please take action to protect other unsuspecting victims.


----------



## JimMIA

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> I wonder if JimMIA would recommend taking additional steps at this point?


Yes, but this is not the forum for discussing them.


----------



## Slakk

I have nothing really to add but to tell both parties how incredibly sorry I am and  how I really hope that things work out.  I wish I had extra points for you both - this is so sad.


----------



## jade1

tacomaranch said:
			
		

> Just read the Vogel, hold my hand post and then you will know "she who must not be named" is.



I just checked the *"Lets see what you fellow DVCers look like" * thread, but no luck.


----------



## jekjones1558

PP = Problematic Person (suggested in a earlier post in this thread).

Like many of you I have followed this thread very carefully.  I have sent prayers for both of the 2 (at least) innocent DISers who are are suffering because they do not know how/when/if their transactions will be resolved satisfactorily in the end.  I have also sent prayers for "PP" because I choose to believe that her life is in a huge mess.  Some or all or none of her medical, housing, employment and personal issues may be of her own making.  But I have not walked in her shoes and hope that I never will.  I know that some of the worst messes I have dealt with in my life were my own fault and I am eternally grateful to friends and family who stood by me.  My prayers for "PP" are that someone in her life will recognize her predicament and care enough about her to step forward and help her get her life back in control.  If that happens then hopefully the 2 DISers who are currently paying a financial and emotional price will also get some relief.  I will keep praying for everyone in this mess.


----------



## wdwstar

PP = problematic person


----------



## dumbo71

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Yes, but this is not the forum for discussing them.




I agree and I'm not suggesting we go there.  Just curious if your advice had changed after Monday came and went.

Thanks


----------



## CinderellaIam

Wow, been wartching this thread on and off for the past two days hoping to see some resolution.   So sorry that this has not been resolved both for the op and for Stacey.   Hopefully tomorrow will bring some news and $$ for them both.


----------



## kidsister

robinb said:
			
		

> Member services will now only speak to the owner of the points about a reservation.  They will not talk to the renter and they will not talk to another owner.



Actually, as a member I can call and ask about any ressie whose ressie number I have.  I always send my renters a confirm of their ressie which has a lot of info on it, often including the owners name and address. First I would call and ask about one of my own upcoming ressies and then I'd just ask for a double check of my friend's ressie.  I usually get very chatty with the CMs and I don't think there would be any problem with finding out if the ressie exists.

As for the 3 party call...ressies doesn't even have to know that there is another person on the line, but in the past they have been completely ok with having another person on the line IF the owner chooses to let them know that there is one there. For a transfer, it is even more likely that Disney WANTS the other owner on the line...and that is the reason that the 3 party call for the transfer lets OP know right away if the PP is a fraud or not.


----------



## robinb

kidsister said:
			
		

> Actually, as a member I can call and ask about any ressie whose ressie number I have.


 Not true.  I tried for Stacey earlier today and they would not tell me anything.  Of course, I was 100% up-front with what I was asking.


----------



## dianeschlicht

I hope Dani and Stacy are getting their ducks in a row and getting this taken care of.  Hopefully  they will both come back in a week and tell us it's all fixed!


----------



## OceanAnnie

The whole situation is just terrible!    I do hope both the OP and Stacey get their money back. I bet Pete would provide the police with the PP's IP address. That would help to get all the information that is needed to take it to the next level.

Good luck OP & Stacey!


----------



## JimMIA

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> I agree and I'm not suggesting we go there.  Just curious if your advice had changed after Monday came and went.


Not on Monday, but certainly yesterday, yes.

I don't know what the _original_ intent was, but when I saw that she had canceled Stacy's *paid-in-full*  ressie because Stacy "called her too many times" trying to verify *her two young children's WDW vacation*, it became pretty apparent what this person's intent is _NOW_.

And that changes the whole ballgame.

*****
On another note, I can tell you that the tremendous outpouring of concern and support for Stacy and Dani on this board has been very heartwarming for both of them and they really appreciate it.


----------



## sajetto

I'm still holding out hope for both of you. I don't know what threads other posters are referring to, but just from the tone of what's being posted I don't have a good feeling about this renter. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and I'm wishing you the best of luck that this all gets settled


----------



## JandD Mom

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Not on Monday, but certainly yesterday, yes.
> 
> I don't know what the _original_ intent was, but when I saw that she had canceled Stacy's *paid-in-full*  ressie because Stacy "called her too many times" trying to verify *her two young children's WDW vacation*, it became pretty apparent what this person's intent is _NOW_.
> 
> And that changes the whole ballgame.
> 
> *****
> On another note, I can tell you that the tremendous outpouring of concern and support for Stacy and Dani on this board has been very heartwarming for both of them and they really appreciate it.



Go get her Jim!!!!!


----------



## JimMIA

JandD Mom said:
			
		

> Go get her Jim!!!!!


 I'm not getting anyone.

And this isn't really about that.  It's about making things right, and I hope she and her aunt make things right for these two unfortunate victims.


----------



## JandD Mom

JimMIA said:
			
		

> I'm not getting anyone.
> 
> And this isn't really about that.  It's about making things right, and I hope she and her aunt make things right for these two unfortunate victims.



Yes, it is about making things right.  Sometimes there needs to be intervention to make things right.  And in this case, I think it is certainly about that.


----------



## wdwstar

I think what   JandD Mom  meant,  we are standing behind you both & JimMia 100% with all the support and comfort we can offer   

Hang in there, we are here for you


----------



## wirki

I have been watching this tread since the begining.  I have to say that my heart is breaking for the OP and Stacy.  I can not believe that this is happening.  We are getting ready to purchase our DVC tomorrow and this has really gotten too me.  Not to change my mind, but to be moe careful.  Are hard lesson for anyone, but unfortunatly at your expense.  I hope you get everything fixed!!    

Debbie


----------



## cncDisney4

Not much on this I can say except the OP and Stacy are in my prayers and, of course,   that all turns out well for everyone involved!


----------



## mom2dzb

I, too, have been keeping up with this thread.  I log on each morning to see if there's any news.  I hope it all works out for those who have had problems with this renter.


----------



## DMKEDM

Not much "reportable news"...as of Wednesday mid-morning, neither Stacey nor I had received our refund...so this post is really to send out another heartfelt thank you to all you wonderful people who are pulling/praying for Stacey & me...Stacey & I are in communication w/one another (and, obviously, w/JimMIA, and also w/others in the Disboards hierarchy), and we agree that this cyber-community is just the best...if you have to be a victim--and I recommend against it (grin)--this is the place to come to be made heart-whole again!

There's probably a connection between the fact that there has been such an amazing outpouring of support and offers of help for and to us, and that we are all Disney lovers...maybe the Disney magic really derives from the fact that it is all about people who are themselves in possession of an extraordinary amount of magic (compassion)...

In any event...we really can't say much (actually, nothing) about what's going on now...but we are following up...both Stacey and I feel strongly that we must do what we can to make sure this can't happen again.  

Thank you so much for caring about us. I can't begin to tell you how much it helps...

Dani


----------



## beachwarmer

I just wanted to add my thanks to you for sharing your story.  My heart goes out to both of you.  You Dani have shown a great deal of class in the way you have handled this situation.  Thank you for keeping us updated....I know I log in to see what is happening because I know it very easily could have been me in the situation.  The passion for Disney and the trust we have in other on the DIS is really something I have taken for granted.  Your attitude not to condemn all but just to remind us to be vigilant is a great message to be shared.  Thanks again.


----------



## CinderellaIam

beachwarmer said:
			
		

> I just wanted to add my thanks to you for sharing your story.  My heart goes out to both of you.  You Dani have shown a great deal of class in the way you have handled this situation.  Thank you for keeping us updated....I know I log in to see what is happening because I know it very easily could have been me in the situation.  The passion for Disney and the trust we have in other on the DIS is really something I have taken for granted.  Your attitude not to condemn all but just to remind us to be vigilant is a great message to be shared.  Thanks again.



What a great post.  I totally agree with you.  It took a lot of courage to come forward with a mea culpa on this just to warn others.  I so hope it works out for Dani and Stacy.   They're both class acts and deserve nothing but goodness in return.


----------



## chris1gill

I too log in to see if there's been any success here   I'm sorry to hear the news so far has not been positive     Hugs to both Dani & Stacey here... I hope Stacey is able to salvage her time next week somehow...


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Dani -- Happy to hear you are hanging in there and trying to move forward.  

I'm curious, does anyone know if our DVC contracts have any kind of clause that would allow DVC to somehow "take back" the points of any member involved with fraudulent activity regarding the use of the points?  Some kind of a forced buy-back?  Or perhaps they would only allow ressies in the contract owners name.  I can't help but wonder how long it would be before the same individual starts the whole process again with the next unsuspecting victim.  Especially since it appeared they had already created a new user name and posted the same points available on the Rent/Trade board a couple of days ago.

Jim -- I know it was never your intention to step in to be the hero and a lot of people are making assumptions as to what your involvement is, but I just wanted to let you know I think it's very admirable.  Are you secretly Mr. Incredible?


----------



## Deb & Bill

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> Dani -- Happy to hear you are hanging in there and trying to move forward.
> 
> I'm curious, does anyone know if our DVC contracts have any kind of clause that would allow DVC to somehow "take back" the points of any member involved with fraudulent activity regarding the use of the points?  Some kind of a forced buy-back?  Or perhaps they would only allow ressies in the contract owners name.  I can't help but wonder how long it would be before the same individual starts the whole process again with the next unsuspecting victim.  Especially since it appeared they had already created a new user name and posted the same points available on the Rent/Trade board a couple of days ago.
> 
> Jim -- I know it was never your intention to step in to be the hero and a lot of people are making assumptions as to what your involvement is, but I just wanted to let you know I think it's very admirable.  Are you secretly Mr. Incredible?




Technically, it's against the rules to take payment for a reservation that you make for another person.  If they start enforcing that one, all bets are off.


----------



## Tabetha

I've been following this thread for the last few days now, and as someone who has fought back in the wake of fraud, I applaud your patience and I truly hope both of you have a positive resolution.  It can happen!

I wish I could do something....


----------



## wdwstar

I do know if they default on their dues, any ressies will be canceled, no points can be transfer in or out. I am not sure how long you have to be in default before DVC takes the points away. I remember this when we had another problematic person renter a few years ago. 

At this point if the renter is broke and didnt pay her dues( or the aunt) this too could be caused of the problem.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Good point about defaulting on the dues.  Hopefully DVC can see a pattern of activity that technically isn't allowed and move forward rather quickly if there is a window of opportunity involving missed payments.


----------



## Y-ASK

I wonder if the Aunt is aware of what is going on in her name?

Y-ASK


----------



## DisneyMommyMichelle

just checking in for today, and once again i'm sorry and yes i have to agree with the others sending out a big thank you for posting about your experiences.


----------



## JandD Mom

Y-ASK said:
			
		

> I wonder if the Aunt is aware of what is going on in her name?
> 
> Y-ASK



If, indeed, the person whose name is actually on the contract really is her aunt.  

Just to throw this out there for those more familiar with what's going on, but could this be a case of identity theft of a DVC member?


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

Dani and Stacey


----------



## twinklebug

Back to check-in - I see no news is NOT good news in this case. Sigh.

More HUGS to both Dani & Stacey... If there's anything a web developer can do to help either of you, give me a shout!   

{start my2cents}
As to the situation, I've been thinking a lot about this,
We can make all the speculation in the world as to what is the motivation behind the Renter's actions or delays are, but only she knows what's going in her world and is apparently unwilling to share (which is just driving the guesses.)

Mis-communication is often the source of many problems & I have a gut feeling that that is 50% of the problem here. For her sake and to ease the stress on the victims here, I wish she would get in contact with both rentees and lay it out for them to know what's up AND provide a reliable contact method to her.

If she's a scam artist, I agree, the proper steps need to be taken ASAP to get her to stop hurting folk. Stacey I feel so much for you - I could have easilly been in your or Dani's shoes as I am just too trusting. Keep planning and don't let one bad seed ruin the magic for you!

{end my2cents}


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Now twinklebug...don't sell yourself short, that post was worth at least 5 cents!


----------



## twinklebug

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> Now twinklebug...don't sell yourself short, that post was worth at least 5 cents!



I always underprice myself... I'll meet you 1/2 way, how about 3.5 cents   


Oh, just adding (for another cent) that my first experience renting was with a (_wonderful_) 1st time poster who was behind on their dues. I paid DVC directly the money they owed on her dues via secure FAX and credit card and within minutes of DVC verifying the funds they were able to make our reservations. (probably the best and worst thing I've done in my life because that trip hooked me on DVC!)

I think that would knock non-dues payment off the list of speculations as the money paid could have easilly been passed to DVC.


----------



## T.E. Yeary

OK, I can't stand anymore of this.  This board has been really good to me and our organization so I am going to make this offer:

I currently have 224 pts available for use. I will be happy to make them available to the 2 people who were left out in the cold. You can have these points for $5 per point. Since you've already put up half of the money, then you can use your remainder for these and go on that "MAGICAL" vacation.  If these are not enough points for the 2 victims, I should have some more coming in the next week or so.

Please PM me and I will give you my home phone # so we can do the deal.  You will NOT have to go to Western Union! You can send me a personal check after I make your reservations. 

Happy "magical" vacationing,
Tom


----------



## ttepsich

Tom, you're going to make me cry.   You're the best


----------



## kathmzh

Wow, that is one of the most generous things I've seen done in a long time! I hope it works out for everyone.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Sorry Jim, you just lost your high-standing: Tom is now Mr. Incredible.  Okay, okay...I guess you can both be Mr. Co-Incredible!


----------



## Zoemakes5

T.E. Yeary said:
			
		

> OK, I can't stand anymore of this.  This board has been really good to me and our organization so I am going to make this offer:
> 
> I currently have 224 pts available for use. I will be happy to make them available to the 2 people who were left out in the cold. You can have these points for $5 per point. Since you've already put up half of the money, then you can use your remainder for these and go on that "MAGICAL" vacation.  If these are not enough points for the 2 victims, I should have some more coming in the next week or so.
> 
> Please PM me and I will give you my home phone # so we can do the deal.  You will NOT have to go to Western Union! You can send me a personal check after I make your reservations.
> 
> Happy "magical" vacationing,
> Tom



Wow, Tom, how generous you are!  As others have said, it's the magic within the people who love the mouse who make the magic happen!


----------



## Johnnie Fedora

Tom...That's a very kind offer for the two victims of this very unkind PP.  I hope things work out the them.


----------



## diznyfanatic

Oh my goodness Tom!  What a genuinely kind offer to make.  

It makes me really glad that we were able to realize our Disney dream to become DVC members via Tom's company.    

I too was hoping for some good news today.  I'm actually still really hoping for a positive outcome for Dani & Stacey and will keep sending positive thoughts their way.


----------



## sajetto

Tom, that is one amazingly generous offer! These two are so blessed to have found someone as giving as yourself


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

We all know now, but what about Dani and Stacey?


----------



## kaitlin-n-mom

WOW Tom, this is exactly why I am hooked on this board.  The wonderful people I have met here and the kindness that it shown to fellow Diser's.  

"Random Acts of Kindness"


----------



## StaceySaulino

It took me so long to post because I can't see thru the tears in my eyes.  The offer is soooo generous and I really appreicate it.  I PM'd Tom and told him that maybe in the future we'll rent from him (at 10 or 11 per point), but for now I don't think we'll get anything on site at this late date.  I truly appreciate it.  My family is now considering Christmas or shortly after.  That will give this all time to settle.  Thanks soooooooo much!!!!!!!   I just couldn't take points from someone so nice like this.  I want Tom to enjoy them with his family.  That will make me so very happy.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Get me the tissues...STAT!!!


----------



## tacomaranch

Tom, you have restored my faith in mankind!  You are above and beyond hero of the year!  I also have tears in my eyes and pray that we can all learn from you.

I  have gotten a few PM's asking me who the girl is who did this.  I also will not name names but I found out from reading the entire thread.  Somewhere in the early teens a person posted to read the Vogelfamily  "please hold my hand....again" post.  In there everyone can see who this person is.  If I can figure it out with a brain injury so can anyone who wants to know also.

I wish the OP and Staci all the best!

God bless you Tom!

April


----------



## kd5k

I am pretty new here also. Just purchased and waiting to close next month and starting to plan!!! YIPEE!!

I followed this story from the beginning and it made me so sad! It just kept getting deeper and deeper.....

I have prayed that things work out for Stacy and Dani both!! And then when Tom popped in with his offer of points, I couldn't keep quiet any longer!! I have pretty much been lurking in the background since I found this board, but no more!! (I gotta get those post #'s up there!!     

I have logged in several times a day to follow this story! And now can't wait until Dani and Stacy both see this!!

I gotta figure out how to get all the cute pics and stuff on....give me time!

hugs to all, Deb


----------



## zurgswife

Tom what a very generous offer...That is great.  I'm sure the OP will appreaciate your offer just like Staci....Yes, you quailfy for Mr. Incredible...LOL


----------



## DMKEDM

Tom, your offer is beyond wonderful...I know I don't "deserve" it (I'm going to PM you, but I want to very publicly state how moved and grateful I am to have received it)...

In case people don't know it, Tom "is" the Timeshare Store (sponsor of this site)...it has great reviews elsewhere on the DVC boards; I've not added on (yet???), and made my first purchase thru Disney, so have no preexisting personal experience w/Tom and his folks...but now I'm a loyal supporter, forever and always...if ever I do add on, or sell (how unlikely is that!!!), or if anyone asks me, all my business and referrals now belong to Tom!

Being the "victim" (why did I put that in quotes...I AM a victim!!!!) is no fun...but being the recipient of the kind of sympathy and support and generosity as I've found here almost (not quite, but almost) makes it worth it...

Thank you, Tom; and thank you to my fellow Dis'ers and Disney lovers...I've never questioned the magic, but if I had, this experience on these boards would have eliminated any doubt!!!

Dani


----------



## robinb

Tom, that was very nice!  Then again, I've known you to be a nice guy for almost 10 years!  Yikes!  I've owned my resale from you that long .


----------



## disney-super-mom

Well, as Crush would say....

...Tom, like DUDE, you totally ROCK!


----------



## RachelTori

tacomaranch said:
			
		

> Tom, you have restored my faith in mankind!  You are above and beyond hero of the year!  I also have tears in my eyes and pray that we can all learn from you.
> 
> I wish the OP and Staci all the best!
> 
> God bless you Tom!




Exactly my thoughts.


----------



## diznyfanatic

disney-super-mom said:
			
		

> Well, as Crush would say....
> 
> ...Tom, like DUDE, you totally ROCK!



LOVE it!!!


----------



## DVC Daisy

Way to go Tom!  That was such a wonderful offer that you made.  I, too have been logging in hoping to see a positive resolution to this.  Although not from the PP, this in a way IS a positive resolution.  You are the best!  You made it happen.

Also wanted to add, that my very first post ever on the DIS was in response to a rent/trade post, so low post count does not always mean someone is "bad".  Sometimes a great deal is just what a lurker needs to actually get out there and post!


----------



## bobbiwoz

Thank you for being so generous, Tom.

Bobbi


----------



## fireplug

I read enough to know someone got scammed and Tom stepped up to the plate to help out! A very generous offer Tom!

I hope that all works out for the best and BOTH families involved have great vacations!

Squid


----------



## CinderellaIam

Tom you are one of the wonderful people who make up the Disney Magic!    How wonderful of you to make this offer!    

Stacy, I am so sorry that your family will not be making the trip next week, BUT you guys are going to love being there in December...if at all possible it is even more magical.  I will be there celebrating my niece's Sweet 16 12/7-12/14...if you're going to be around I would love to meet up with you and treat you and your family to a Mickey Bar!


----------



## T.E. Yeary

You folks are making me blush!   

Do you remember the movie "Pay it Forward"?  Whenever I've done something really good for someone, it ALWAYS comes back to me. 

I told Dani in my PM to him that we've got an exceptional group of caring giving people on this board and I'm truly honored to be the sponsor.  

I also hope both victims will pursue whatever action is necessary to stop this type of thing from ever happening again! Jim can probably put them in touch with the right folks to do that.  He has helped me in the past when I needed it! ::cop: 

Sincerely,
Tom


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

No words.....just


----------



## Tine731

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> Get me the tissues...STAT!!!



Please pass them to me when you are done.


----------



## NARM Forever

I hear that Disney actually watches these boards.  

Wouldn't it be lovely if they did something for Stacey and Dani a part of their year of a million dreams.  Think what magic that would create for all of us who are watching this thread as well.   We'd  Disney even more.


----------



## DMKEDM

NARM Forever: thank you for the thought; it's dear of you...and maybe (I'd vote for it!) it would be appropriate for Stacey & her little ones...but for me, it would be "too much"...so, dear Disney, if you're reading this, please, you don't have to "treat" me to the ultra-luxurious upgrade I thought I'd use those extra points for! Arguably, I was being outrageously self-indulgent to start with! We WILL be at WDW, as planned, despite this monetary loss...we'll just be in more reasonable (and still wonderful) space!

But...if you could work something out for Stacey's little ones during the holiday period (the thought of her young ones seeing WDW all dressed up for the holidays makes me feel all warm and wonderful...WDW at the holidays is the very definition of "magic!")...

Dani


----------



## KingOMiami

T.E. Yeary said:
			
		

> OK, I can't stand anymore of this.  This board has been really good to me and our organization so I am going to make this offer:
> 
> I currently have 224 pts available for use. I will be happy to make them available to the 2 people who were left out in the cold. You can have these points for $5 per point. Since you've already put up half of the money, then you can use your remainder for these and go on that "MAGICAL" vacation.  If these are not enough points for the 2 victims, I should have some more coming in the next week or so.
> 
> Please PM me and I will give you my home phone # so we can do the deal.  You will NOT have to go to Western Union! You can send me a personal check after I make your reservations.
> 
> Happy "magical" vacationing,
> Tom




Way to go Tom!

If the DW and I decide to go the purchase resale route instead of directly through Disney, you will definitely be the person we contact.

Very generous of you to offer your points to these 2 members!


----------



## Lewisc

NARM Forever said:
			
		

> I hear that Disney actually watches these boards.
> 
> Wouldn't it be lovely if they did something for Stacey and Dani a part of their year of a million dreams.  Think what magic that would create for all of us who are watching this thread as well.   We'd  Disney even more.



I don't think Disney approves of members transferring points in exchange for cash and I doubt Disney approves of a member renting points that are owned by their aunt. 

I wouldn't count on Disney doing much.  I'm cynical enough to think Disney may actually like it when a few problems like these get publicized.  It may deter some people form renting points, both owners and renters.

I want to join others in thanking Tom, for *a very generous gesture.*  The only negative is it sure sounds like the person with the cash isn't going to be making good any time soon.  Until Tom's post I was hoping the OP would make good.


----------



## NARM Forever

Lewisc said:
			
		

> I wouldn't count on Disney doing much.  I'm cynical enough to think Disney may actually like it when a few problems like these get publicized.  It may deter some people form renting points, both owners and renters.



OK, Lewisc, you live in the real world    Me, on the other hand, I like to dream, often in technicolour


----------



## chris1gill

ZipaDeeDooDah said:
			
		

> No words.....just


I agree with ZipaDeeDooDah here.. Of course I would like to add a special thanks to Tom, I think everyone here on the Boards is just in awe


----------



## Lewisc

Tom's generous offer is the kind of action you can only dream about. 





			
				NARM Forever said:
			
		

> OK, Lewisc, you live in the real world    Me, on the other hand, I like to dream, often in technicolour


----------



## Copper3

That was very nice of you Tom.  Thanks for being the very generous guy you are.


----------



## chris1gill

Lewisc said:
			
		

> Tom's generous offer is the kind of action you can only dream about.



I agree Lewisc, just amazing...


----------



## 3DisneyKids

I think this is what Disney Magic REALLY is. 

My support and referrals will always go to Tom and TSS.


----------



## Dina

KingOMiami said:
			
		

> Way to go Tom!
> 
> If the DW and I decide to go the purchase resale route instead of directly through Disney, you will definitely be the person we contact.
> 
> Very generous of you to offer your points to these 2 members!



Second that!  When we add on, I hope you don't mind, but I'll be contacting you!!  I was going to buy direct through Disney wherever they were offering, but really wanted to get more at SSR-- now I'm definitely buying resale.  How generous of you to offer those points to them!


----------



## dianeschlicht

WOW!  I'm gone for a day, and look what happens!  SO glad you are being so generous, Tom.    Hats off to both Tom AND Jim for going above and beyond!  Dani, and Stacy, I hope you both keep us posted here once the final outcome of the "situation" with the OP is realized.


----------



## jekjones1558

My prayers are answered.  Tom did it!  Here's hoping that Stacey's and Dani's next trips are the MOST magical ever!


----------



## Sammie

I have hoped all along that both Dani and Stacey would have happy endings to this. 

But I think it is unfair to expect Disney to make any of this right. They are not the bad ones in this. 

Rental agreements are private transactions and the good deal that one gets involves risk. Most times the risk is very minimal but in others such as this it is not.

Legally Disney can not get involved and they certainly can't fix the Dreams contest to award it to anyone, regardless of who is deserving.

Tom and Jim's help have been gracious and I am sure Disney does not get any satisfication in the misery that Dani and Stacey have gone through.

Most that work for Disney, especially in management are just as caring as Jim and Tom but legally there is little they can do.


----------



## jade1

What a great thing to read after a sucky day at work!   Thanks for the lift Tom!


----------



## T.E. Yeary

I'm sure that most everyone would jump on the $5 offer. The reason the offer was made is because these people had been "victimized" by an individual on our R/T Board. Since my company sponsors the board, I felt it would be a good thing to try and help them recoup their money. They would still have been paying a total of $10 per point because they had given half up-front to make the reservation.

The personal points that I made available to them are our own personal points that my wife uses to take our Grandson to the parks and stay a few days. I told her the story and asked how she would feel if we made these available, being the soft-hearted person that she is, she said of course. I guess what I'm trying to explain to you is we personally were willing to make the sacrifice to help these people who had a sour taste in their mouth from the R/T Boards.

If you want to do something special for your brother and his family, I would suggest that you keep your eyes on the R/T Board and whenever you see the right number of points come up, send a PM and offer them a reduced amount that is something that will fit into the budget. The only other suggestion I have would be to let your brother use your points for a vacation. Believe me, it makes you feel wonderful when you can give others the gift of "MAGIC". 

Best wishes,
Tom


----------



## Chuck S

A reminder...asking for reduced rate/donated points is not allowed on the DVC boards. Tom & his wife made the very generous offer of their own free will without being asked to do so by anyone on the DIS.


----------



## Kellyscrapbooks

Has there been any update on this? I am asking in resposne to this because in the initial post the OP stated that the person was in NY. I looked at the date on this post and realized it was the day that the HUGE HUGE HUGE storm hit my area of NY. I only regained power yesteday, we had no phones, no electricity etc. I did not read through this whole thread yet, but I'm hoping this turns out to be the situation!


----------



## Kellyscrapbooks

Well in reading more it appears that the storm that hit me wasn't the cause. I hope it's been resolved anyways!


----------



## drakethib

T.E. Yeary said:
			
		

> OK, I can't stand anymore of this.  This board has been really good to me and our organization so I am going to make this offer:
> 
> I currently have 224 pts available for use. I will be happy to make them available to the 2 people who were left out in the cold. You can have these points for $5 per point. Since you've already put up half of the money, then you can use your remainder for these and go on that "MAGICAL" vacation.  If these are not enough points for the 2 victims, I should have some more coming in the next week or so.
> 
> Please PM me and I will give you my home phone # so we can do the deal.  You will NOT have to go to Western Union! You can send me a personal check after I make your reservations.
> 
> Happy "magical" vacationing,
> Tom




Holy cow Tom !!!!!!!!!

That is one of the coolest things I have seen.   

Ok guys, this thread should be linked to anyone who has any questions about buying from TTS !!!!


----------



## Disney Hot Mama

I have only used TSS once but this would make me use them again in a heartbeat........ Thank you Tom for helping restore some magic in this situation.....


----------



## DMKEDM

Just so everyone knows: both Stacey and I have both publicly and privately thanked Tom, and we are both moved and touched by his generosity--as we are moved and touched by the incredible support and sympathy we're both getting here. But neither of us is looking to be compensated by anyone other than the person who took our money. 

I "love" Tom for his generosity, but will not (and have so told him) take him up on it. My undestanding is that Stacey feels the same way.

I think you-all wanting (and some actually offering) to make this all go away by making up for what was taken from us is wondrous. As magical in and of itself as a Disney vacation. But honestly, I don't need anything more than what you're so generously giving me: moral support, sympathy, and reinforcement that I'm behaving "the right way"...

To the poster who asked if there's an update: the answer is "not yet." I still haven't gotten my money back. I'm still (somewhat) hopeful that maybe I will. I'll let Stacey add her own update--but last I heard, she felt the same way.

Again, thank you to everyone on this "monstrously long" thread! I simply can't believe all the goodness and wonderfulness in the people on this board. It's amazing, and heart-warming, and makes me even gladder than I was (and I was pretty darn glad!) to be a DVC owner and a member of this cyber-community!

Dani


----------



## Kellyscrapbooks

Wow... I'm so sorry to the OP and to Stacey for the horrible nightmare that they are dealing with.  My heart broke to read this thread (and it took a while!) I hope it resolves favorably and quickly 
My faith in humankind was seriously restored at the same time, what wonderful people reside here on the DIS! Tom that was an incredible offer! I'm all teary!


----------



## SleepyatDVC

Just finished reading this post from #1.

All I can think is that when something really bad happens it can bring up the best in people.  The reactions of Dani and Stacy and Tom and others here really show the good in humanity and shows their real character.

I am especially impressed with Dani's reaction with the whole situation in that while "venting" about all the frustrations she has gone through, she has always tried to give the rentee some benefit of the doubt by hoping that the she will ultimately overcome whatever is hampering her and make good on her promises.

Dani's attitude about the whole matter is refreshing.  It has never been about "bashing" anyone but always about warning others to be more careful and hoping that someone can be a better person than others think they will be.

Here's hoping that things get resolved to everyone's satisfaction.  That that the lesson learned from this whole fiasco is that we all need to be aware of our personal responsibility in any rental transaction, to proceed with caution, and that while there are people out there who may be very inconsiderate, there are MANY caring ones out there also.

I totally agree with a previous poster that said she would pray for the rentee also - that her financial and other situations will improve so that she could fulfill her obligations to both Dani and Stacy.

OT - It reminded in of a situation with my Mom and a tenant she had from H*LL.  The tenant was an older lady who stayed home all day and liked nothing better than to call us 3 to 6 times EACH and EVERY day to complain about this and that.  We had to take each call because otherwise she would call the dept. of housing to file a formal complaint with the city which would result in inspections and if nothing else paperwork and additional headaches.  She was a real pain.  

I would see my Mom disappear into a room for a long while whenever it got too much for her. I thought she was taking a nap or something 'cause she had headache.  I took a peek in the room one time and found her on her knees praying!  I asked her later what she was praying for.  I never would have imagined her response.  She told me that she would pray for this problem tenant each and every day that something wonderful happens to her, that she would become so happy that she wouldn't be so miserable and try to take it out on us, and that she would win the lottery that she could finally move to a luxury building on Fifth Ave so that everything would to her satisfaction!!!   

A few months later we get a call from the tenant telling her that a close friend of hers had died and left her a sizable inheritance so she was buying a condo in upstate NY and would be moving out. I couldn't stop looking at my Mom with awe.  The tenant knew that we would be happy to hear she was moving. My Mom was so overjoyed at the news that she took the tenant out to a really nice dinner celebration. 

While she lived here, our relationship with her was very rocky - she could get extremely verbally abusive - but after she moved our relationship with her was very reconcilatory. For many years afterwards, we would get Christmas cards every year from this tenant.  


Again I hope things work out for everyone, even the pp.


----------



## JandD Mom

Dani and Stacey, you are both wonderful.  As bad as this "event" is for you, you are not looking for something from anyone.  Too often you read of someone who saw an ant in their room or something, and they are offended they didn't get a free night from disney.  You have been given a very good offer from Tom, but you are truly not looking for anything from anyone.  I admire both of you!  

Jim, you are terrific for the time and effort you are putting into helping these folks who were wronged.  Bravo!  

Tom, as I have told you many times, you are a true gentleman and a terrific person.  You will certainly get my business any time I try to add on (and any referrals).

Just goes to show you, sometimes a lot of good comes out of a bad situation.


----------



## 2Princes2Princesses

I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet either, but I was hopeful that the storm here was the problem.  We just got our power and internet back today and my exes cell died and he was unreachable until today, also.  But I see Kelly thought that too, and that was not the case.   

I am so sorry to hear this happened to anyone.  What a rotten thing to do to someone.  

Tom, you are a very generous and good hearted guy.  We are lucky to have you around on these boards.   

We NYers aren't all bad.  I swear!!!


----------



## offtheice

NARM Forever said:
			
		

> I hear that Disney actually watches these boards.
> 
> Wouldn't it be lovely if they did something for Stacey and Dani a part of their year of a million dreams.  Think what magic that would create for all of us who are watching this thread as well.   We'd  Disney even more.




i hope people in need get that spot..


----------



## wdwfan1

Tom, you are the best.   I am glad I bought from The Timeshare Store!


----------



## kidsister

Tom, your generousity made me tear up!  You are a wonderful example of Disney spirit!

I do hope that these ladies get reimbursed by the person who stiffed them, and that they have a wonderful vacation at the World.


----------



## Phil Harris

Have been reading this thread for a while, and have a different suggestion to make which would allow everyone to 'do their bit'. What if we all gave $2 or so to Stacey to allow her to book her holiday without any addition worry. 

Then, (hopefully) when her money is refunded, she gives the money that everyone has donated to charity (someone like Make a Wish would seem appropriate) so it is more of a loan than a gift, and a charity will benefit in the end?

I would be happy to co-ordinate, but being in the UK the exchange charges would probably make a mockery of it - what does everyone think, and would someone in the US like to co-ordinate?


----------



## DMKEDM

Just checked Western Union...still no money sent back to me. 

An important request: Please please please PLEASE don't think you-all "need to" or even "should" make up this monetary loss for me. It is the responsibility of the person who took my money, not yours...I love you all for offering and for caring and I'm more grateful than I can adequately express for the tremendous support you're offering to me...but I cannot and will not take money or points (I'll take all the "love and affection"--and pixie dust--you want to send, tho--smile a happy smile)...

Phil Harris...looks like there are wonderful people in the UK just like in the US...your offer is so generous...and of course since it's to Stacey and her little ones I can't and won't answer "for her"...but I thank you for your thought...

My bottom line: I do want my money back, but I want it back from the person who took it from me. There's no reason why anyone else should incur any level of loss from this. 

Thank you again and again and again...you-all are the Disney magic in one of its most wonderful forms. Thank you.


----------



## DMKEDM

Can't figure out how to edit (it's early in the  morning--grin)...

But I reread (after I posted, unfortunately) and see that I said "I cannot and will not take money or points"...that should be edited to read "I cannot and will not take money or points from anyone but the person(s) responsible--"

Thanks...


----------



## RachelTori

Dani, any of your posts should have an icon in the bottom right that says "Edit".  Click on that and you can edit any of your posts as you see fit.




We're still hoping this has a happy ending for you, Stacy, and the PP.


----------



## OceanAnnie

Dani, you and Stacey have shown a lot of grace during this ordeal. While it's been wonderful to see all of the generous, big hearted people on the DIS --- the original problem is still the same.

I've stated a few times I hope it gets resolved. I sincerely do. Unfortunately, it boils down to more than hoping. It requires a deliberate act on the PP's part. Just as it was a deliberate act to take the money from both of you. She should communicate with you both and have a plan to make things right. She should turn this thing around. No matter how bad things are/were for her, doing something like this will only make it worse.

Good luck to you both. I'm hoping the PP will have a conscious and put herself in yours and Stacey's shoes. 
I'm hoping for positive action on her part.


----------



## InstImpres

So sorry to DMKEDM, I can join you in the too trusting group of DISboarders bit in the opposite way.  I rented to a disboard member who experienced hard times.  After paying my 50% deposit, she asked for an extension to pay off over 8 months.  This would have her paying AFTER she returned.  Foolish me, didn't want to take this away from her children so I allowed it.  Needless to say I was burned...now I have to file small claims court forms since the payments from July & August still isn't recieved.  To the OP, don't think because your PM isn't read she isn't active.  My renter won't open my PM but is posting on the boards still 

Good luck


----------



## wdwstar

InstImpres   That is so awful, i am sorry that a renter took an advantage of your kindness for the goodness of her children .

pixie dust to you


----------



## robinb

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Just checked Western Union...still no money sent back to me.


Have you been in contact with her?  Maybe it would be easier to go ahead with the transfer than getting blood out of a stone.


----------



## Granny

I too have been reading this thread daily, and didn't want to post in fear that I might end up throwing gasoline on the fire as Dani and Stacey work to resolve the issue.

Dani and Stacey....instead, I've edited my signature as a sign of the support of myself and all the people here on the DIS.  God bless you and your families, and best wishes.


----------



## dianeschlicht

InstImpres said:
			
		

> So sorry to DMKEDM, I can join you in the too trusting group of DISboarders bit in the opposite way.  I rented to a disboard member who experienced hard times.  After paying my 50% deposit, she asked for an extension to pay off over 8 months.  This would have her paying AFTER she returned.  Foolish me, didn't want to take this away from her children so I allowed it.  Needless to say I was burned...now I have to file small claims court forms since the payments from July & August still isn't recieved.  To the OP, don't think because your PM isn't read she isn't active.  My renter won't open my PM but is posting on the boards still
> 
> Good luck


Wow! Not THAT takes guts or maybe something mored shperical in nature.  Will the boards give you any help in contacting this person, or do you already have her personal information like address etc?


----------



## InstImpres

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> Wow! Not THAT takes guts or maybe something mored shperical in nature.  Will the boards give you any help in contacting this person, or do you already have her personal information like address etc?



I have her address from her checks that she had sent.  Honestly, I never contacted the boards or posted about it as I felt like a total idiot.  It was my own fault for allowing it to happen...while I have extended my terms in the past, I have never allowed a renter to checkin without being paid in full.  My mistake, lesson learned...back to my montra - every good dead goes punished.


----------



## JandD Mom

InstImpres said:
			
		

> So sorry to DMKEDM, I can join you in the too trusting group of DISboarders bit in the opposite way.  I rented to a disboard member who experienced hard times.  After paying my 50% deposit, she asked for an extension to pay off over 8 months.  This would have her paying AFTER she returned.  Foolish me, didn't want to take this away from her children so I allowed it.  Needless to say I was burned...now I have to file small claims court forms since the payments from July & August still isn't recieved.  To the OP, don't think because your PM isn't read she isn't active.  My renter won't open my PM but is posting on the boards still
> 
> Good luck



I hope you had a rental contract with the person, that will help you collect.  It will also be easier if the person is in NJ and you don't have to try to collect the "small claim" out of state.

Please don't take my comment to be critical of you, I am not.  Any of us could have been the victims of a deal gone bad like this.  But after reading this thread, everyone should remember that renting points, for both tenants and owners, is a business transaction and it's best if you treat it as such.  You should have some sort of agreement memorializing the deal and any deviation from the deal should throw up red flags.

I hope we ALL learn from this thread.  I know I have.  
Good luck!


----------



## TammyAlphabet

Best wishes to both of you and I hope this incident won't affect your opinion of the people on these boards.


----------



## InstImpres

JandD Mom said:
			
		

> I hope you had a rental contract with the person, that will help you collect.  It will also be easier if the person is in NJ and you don't have to try to collect the "small claim" out of state.
> 
> Please don't take my comment to be critical of you, I am not.  Any of us could have been the victims of a deal gone bad like this.  But after reading this thread, everyone should remember that renting points, for both tenants and owners, is a business transaction and it's best if you treat it as such.  You should have some sort of agreement memorializing the deal and any deviation from the deal should throw up red flags.
> 
> I hope we ALL learn from this thread.  I know I have.
> Good luck!



Unfortunately, I am dealing with an out of state Small Claims Court but yes I had a contract and her previous payments as well as emails of promise of payment for clarification.

I don't take your post as critical of me or the OP.  I think we both admit, we were taken.  Yes, a red flag went up, in my situation unlike the OP, I had a 6 month relationship with my renter and had spoken with her about 4 times.  I let the human and compassion eliminate over take the business side and red flag.

Lesson learned


----------



## JandD Mom

InstImpres said:
			
		

> Lesson learned



It's really unfortunate that a few bad apples spoil the compassion that is exhibited by so many here.

I hope you collect from your renter.


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

InstImpres said:
			
		

> I don't take your post as critical of me or the OP.  I think we both admit, we were taken.  Yes, a red flag went up, in my situation unlike the OP, I had a 6 month relationship with my renter and had spoken with her about 4 times.  I let the human and compassion eliminate over take the business side and red flag.


Aw man, I am sorry you got burned trying to do a nice thing.  Is there a chance that it is the same person that the OP is dealing with? 

Dani and Stacey, I am still thinking of you both today!


----------



## JimMIA

OceanAnnie said:
			
		

> I've stated a few times I hope it gets resolved. I sincerely do. Unfortunately, it boils down to more than hoping. It requires a deliberate act on the PP's part. Just as it was a deliberate act to take the money from both of you. She should communicate with you both and have a plan to make things right. She should turn this thing around. No matter how bad things are/were for her, doing something like this will only make it worse.


I agree with this, and not just because it's the right thing to do...or it's the legal thing to do...or because it would make Dani and Stacy whole.  

Most importantly, she should start working to resolve this because *it is in her own best interests to do so. * 

If she looks honestly at her situation and options, she knows it is in her best interest to get this fixed ASAP and move on with her life.   If she wants to work this out, I'm sure others will work with her to ensure that it gets resolved without anyone getting hurt.  

I don't think this will be difficult or painful to fix if she wants to, but it's her choice.


----------



## InstImpres

ZipaDeeDooDah said:
			
		

> Is there a chance that it is the same person that the OP is dealing with?



Different bad apple, I believe the OP was dealing with someone in NY and my person was in RI.

2 bad apples didn't spoil the bunch...still love the rest of you and spending my days on the Dis


----------



## DMKEDM

Sympathy to you, Instimpres! 

And to Tammy Alphabet, this experience has absolutely affected my opinion of the people on these boards...I think the great big majority are WONDERFUL people who personify the "magic"...and I'd never have known that w/out this painful experience...

Thank you, all, and Instimpres, you have my best wishes and tons of pixie dust as you wend your way thru your process towards a resolution!


----------



## JimMIA

InstImpres said:
			
		

> Different bad apple, I believe the OP was dealing with someone in NY


That's correct.  The person involved in this thread lives in NY.


----------



## Lewisc

InstImpres said:
			
		

> I have her address from her checks that she had sent.  Honestly, I never contacted the boards or posted about it as I felt like a total idiot.  It was my own fault for allowing it to happen...while I have extended my terms in the past, I have never allowed a renter to checkin without being paid in full.  My mistake, lesson learned...back to my montra - every good dead goes punished.



Letting her cancel and giving her a full refund would have been *very generous.* Trying to reduce the reservation to make it affordable, reduce the size of the unit or reduce the number of nights, would have been *very generous.*  Both options may have left you with extra points.

Letting them pay after they got back was over the line but, given a good story, some of us may have done the same thing. 

That's one of the advantages of accepting credit cards, even through pay pal.  It makes no sense to extend terms if the customer doesn't have enough available credit to pay you.


----------



## InstImpres

Lewisc said:
			
		

> That's one of the advantages of accepting credit cards, even through pay pal.  It makes no sense to extend terms if the customer doesn't have enough available credit to pay you.



Be careful, with a paypal credit card transaction, a person could fight the charge with the CC company and have it overturned.  There are many stories of this on the budget board (not DVC related).  To me the risk is high on that. JMHO


----------



## Patty3

I am so sorry that you have yet to received your money back.


----------



## Anjelica

as to what, if anything can be done to prevent this "bad apple" of a renter from renting on these boards?  I mean what recourses in terms of making sure this particular person is never allowed on these boards again can be used?

I am not that familiar with what it takes to get banned from these boards so I am not sure if this person has crossed any of those lines.  But I would highly recommend that even with her horrible communication skills that should be enough to ban this person?

I guess I look at this is no different than any other business transaction - why would I continue to go back or allow this person to do business when they aren't sufficient?


----------



## JimMIA

Anjelica said:
			
		

> as to what, if anything can be done to prevent this "bad apple" of a renter from renting on these boards?  I mean what recourses in terms of making sure this particular person is never allowed on these boards again can be used?
> 
> I am not that familiar with what it takes to get banned from these boards so I am not sure if this person has crossed any of those lines.  But I would highly recommend that even with her horrible communication skills that should be enough to ban this person?
> 
> I guess I look at this is no different than any other business transaction - why would I continue to go back or allow this person to do business when they aren't sufficient?


 If you read the DIS R/T guidelines, you'll see that the R/T board is a free service the DIS provides to its members.  They make it quite clear that all transactions are strictly between the parties involved and the DIS will not be involved in any disputes.

In the particular cases of Dani and Stacey, I believe Doc posted earlier that he had reviewed the threads and found no violation of DIS posting policies, and therefore no action was warranted at that time.  

Doc also took the unusual step of contacting the person who rented to Dani and Stacey and she promised to contact them and resolve the issue.  She has not done so.  

(As I said on the previous page -- before we wandered off topic -- I am hopeful she will realize it is in her best interests to resolve this, but that remains to be seen.)

Doc has really done everything we could expect, and a lot more.

I don't think it is realistic to expect the DIS to ban someone because there was a dispute with a rental.  Nor is it possible for the DIS to become an investigative body or arbitration board.  

WE are responsible for protecting ourselves in rental transactions, not the DIS.


----------



## JandD Mom

InstImpres said:
			
		

> Be careful, with a paypal credit card transaction, a person could fight the charge with the CC company and have it overturned.  There are many stories of this on the budget board (not DVC related).  To me the risk is high on that. JMHO



They could fight it, but if you have signed agreement that they are agreeing to pay X for a rental of Y# points, and you specify when the rental will be, and then they actually show up, I can't imagine the credit transaction will be cancelled.

I have had fights with my own credit card companies over legitimate problems and I have had a hard time getting them to refund me anything.  Sometimes they do, but other times they don't.


----------



## JandD Mom

Lewisc said:
			
		

> That's one of the advantages of accepting credit cards, even through pay pal.  It makes no sense to extend terms if the customer doesn't have enough available credit to pay you.



Lewis, that's an excellent point!


----------



## InstImpres

JimMIA said:
			
		

> ...
> (As I said on the previous page -- before we wandered off topic ....)



I have already responded to you and apologized off line to you in your PM about my adding my story into this thread,  I will take this opportunity to publicly apologize to the original poster for sharing my story and ask that anyone who wants to discuss it further with me do so via PM in order to keep this thread on topic.

Thanks


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

InstImpres -- I don't see your contribution to this thread as being o/t in anyway given the title.  It's pretty much the same circumstances, just reversed.  I think it is important to see that the renter/rentee relationship needs to be entered into with caution (as well as any business transaction).  Let's face it, there are a lot of people in the world that have no guilt/remorse about taking advantage of others.  It doesn't hurt to be reminded of this from time to time (just sorry it was you, Dani, and Stacey that had to be the messengers!).


----------



## JimMIA

Actually, I guess the discussion of the other issue is on topic, so I apologize for thinking it wasn't.

I was just trying to follow up on a post by OceanAnnie about how it was the person who rented to Dani and Stacey who had the responsibility to clear things up...and that discussion got kinda swallowed up in the new tangent.

*********
I do think the person responsible for Dani and Stacey's predicament has a good opening here.  She has an opportunity to fix things if she chooses to, and I'm sure she now understands it is her best interest to do so promptly, get this mess behind her, and move on with her life.


----------



## twinklebug

Back for any (positive) updates... of which I see... none. _~Sigh~_
Hang in there Dani & Stacey! You two have to be nominated for most patient but pro-active DISsers I've met.

Jim & Tom... I nominate the both of you as Honorary DIS Angels   
(I probably spelled that wrong lol)

What I find VERY interesting about this thread, as InstImpres has mentioned is that it is VERY embarrasing to be taken in and used. It's not that problems in renting have never happened here before, but rather than the "I'm such a sucker" mentality kicks in so that those of us who become victims just don't want to open up, share our stories and show our stupidity... which BTW - is a false impression of ourselves, as many have said, these cases could very well could have been any of us.  Victims of many different types of crime will often tell you it was their own fault. It was not. It's good to know that if anywhere on the web has a feel of family support and concern, it has to be here, the DISboards.

Even though we're anonomous here for the most part (OK, except to those who know how to look us up  ), the COURAGE it takes just to tell the world about your experience is tremendous. I APPLAUD both Dani & Stacey as well as InstImpres for coming foward to remind us that we must always stand on guard. 
 Thank you for letting us share in your stories & I wish the best outcomes for you all!


----------



## Glorydaz

JimMIA said:
			
		

> That's correct.  The person involved in this thread lives in NY.


  first off, a good morning to Dani and Stacey. I , like many other people here, have been following your story in the hopes of a positive outcome. I must say, even though at this time it doesn't look overly hopeful, it is absolutely heartwarming to see the outpouring of generosity from all the folks on this board - whether it be the offer of points, money, prayers or just good wishes. to me, it says that 99.9% of people have good in their hearts. I am also a firm believer of "what goes around, comes around", you get what you give" and especially, "pay it forward".

now, while I understand that neither of you will accept points or dollars, I would like to propose the following:

my fiance and I will be in WDW from Sunday 10/29 through Friday, Nov 3 and I would like to extend an offer to meet and have a drink, a cup of coffee , or whatever if time allows and if you will be there the same time. I understand , if I read correctly, that Stacey was hoping to be there for Halloween. I really hope you don't change your plans...this trip will be magical for you and yours even with this mishap.  maybe there are even other folks here who will be visiting the same time who would like to join in.

whatever you decide, here's wishing you both the best - I'm still hoping for a positive end to this ordeal....  

Michelle


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

InstImpres said:
			
		

> I have already responded to you and apologized off line to you in your PM about my adding my story into this thread,  I will take this opportunity to publicly apologize to the original poster for sharing my story and ask that anyone who wants to discuss it further with me do so via PM in order to keep this thread on topic. Thanks


I appreciate you sharing your story too! Your story is very relevant to the topic at hand, which is protecting yourself and being cautious during these transactions.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Excellent post twinklebug (worth at least a dime!  ).


----------



## StaceySaulino

Hi All, 

I just wanted to say thank you to all that have offered such generous gifts over the last couple of days, both gifts and offers to help in different ways are very much appreicated.  I hope I didn't miss anyone via PM, but if I did I'm extremely sorry.  My box has been kind of busy  .  No new news yet today.  I'll check back in and let you know when I have something to report.  I really do appreciate everything.  I still can't get over how nice and generous everyone is.  I wish we could all meet for real


----------



## DMKEDM

Hi, folks...it's me again, w/no new news! But I wanted to chime in with a note that Instimpres owes me no apology of any kind! This is a free-flowing conversation, and while at some point it's likely a good idea to "just let it go" (I'm trying!), I wouldn't want to deny Instimpres her/his share of the wonderful support and good wishes that come from the posters on this thread. And I add my support and good wishes to those flowing to him/her

Having said that, I know it's possible that the person who took my money is reading this thread...if so, that person should know very clearly that the fact that others have been victimized, or that generous people have offered to lessen the loss that person imposed on me, it in no way lessens that person's responsibility to me (and to Stacey) to make good...

Both Stacey and I are still more than willing to accept the money this person owes us, and to declare publicly that it has been repaid (if it's repaid)....this person definitely still has a chance to minimize the troubles she is experiencing as a result of this situation. The negative consequences this person is experiencing (and will experience) can be stopped by repaying Stacey and me...

In any event, one more time, my very big thank-you's and appreciation to the wonderfully supportive people on this board...and I for one would just love to share a Mickey bar (or whatever) w/any and all of you if we find ourselves at WDW at the same time...our next trip is for T-giving...do feel free to zap me a PM if you're going to be there then and want to try to find a time to get together...

Dani


----------



## Anjelica

JimMIA said:
			
		

> If you read the DIS R/T guidelines, you'll see that the R/T board is a free service the DIS provides to its members.  They make it quite clear that all transactions are strictly between the parties involved and the DIS will not be involved in any disputes.
> 
> In the particular cases of Dani and Stacey, I believe Doc posted earlier that he had reviewed the threads and found no violation of DIS posting policies, and therefore no action was warranted at that time.
> 
> Doc also took the unusual step of contacting the person who rented to Dani and Stacey and she promised to contact them and resolve the issue.  She has not done so.
> 
> (As I said on the previous page -- before we wandered off topic -- I am hopeful she will realize it is in her best interests to resolve this, but that remains to be seen.)
> 
> Doc has really done everything we could expect, and a lot more.
> 
> I don't think it is realistic to expect the DIS to ban someone because there was a dispute with a rental.  Nor is it possible for the DIS to become an investigative body or arbitration board.
> 
> WE are responsible for protecting ourselves in rental transactions, not the DIS.



That personal responsiblity/accountability should play a role.  However, I guess if this person has been found to be fradulent I would "think" that would be something the DIS boards would want to deter.  

Now I am not saying this person is guilty of any crime (yet) but if there are fradulent posts why would DIS not ban those folks? (Again, if DIS finds that this person created a fradulent rental agreement, etc.)


----------



## JimMIA

Anjelica said:
			
		

> That personal responsiblity/accountability should play a role.  However, I guess if this person has been found to be fradulent I would "think" that would be something the DIS boards would want to deter.
> 
> Now I am not saying this person is guilty of any crime (yet) but if there are fradulent posts why would DIS not ban those folks? (Again, if DIS finds that this person created a fradulent rental agreement, etc.)


The DIS has already done what they need to do with regard to this particular situation.  I guarantee you that no one who has been involved in this situation has anything but the greatest praise for the DIS and the way they have responded.

ETA:  I should add that the DIS has taken additional steps to deter this kind of activity, and I'm sure they will continue to be watchful...as they always have been.  It's a credit to the DIS (not just the site administration, but the members as well) that there have been so few bad scenarios over the years.

Also, I have no doubt that the DIS would ban anyone they felt violated DIS policies or engaged in illegal activities.  I don't know exactly how they do that, but I'm sure they evaluate each situation on its own merits and do what is right in that particular situation.


----------



## cobbler

HUGE HUGS to both of you. I have been watching for a few days now and keep hoping to find some good news.

Pixie dust that you will soon!


----------



## Tiger926

I've been following this thread from the beginning and it's very heartening to see such compassion and altruism from everyone to Dani and Stacey. This will not bring their money back, but as they both have mentioned, it surely helps in dealing with the issue and moving forward from it, but it in no way excuses the PP for her actions whatsoever!

As a special education teacher of at-risk students, I see this kind of thing happen each and everyday with my students - their mantra is: "Trouble finds me, Miss." And I always fire back, "No, you find trouble." The PP is obviously someone who finds trouble, and unfortunately, Dani and Stacey got caught up in it 

I am the biggest optimist you'll meet (ok, maybe Dani & Stacey are bigger than I ), but I do feel that the PP has already made the choice not to do what is right here.  This person sounds so much like my students - in fact, I have one student who has lost about 30 grandmas in the last year alone! The PP posted in another thread about her personal and social issues (lost job, mother passed away, homeless, etc. - if indeed any of this is true to begin with), but the bottom line is that none of that is anyone's issue except her own. I constantly get into discussions with my students about how the world owes them because they have crappy lives and so this gives them the justification that they need to steal, be ignorant to others and be dishonest. In this case we all know that stealing money from two honest people planning family vacations is not a great way in dealing with your problems, but if the PP is like my students (and she seems to be wearing those shoes!), then it's probably going to take a monumental act to make her give back the money, as she more than likely has already spent if, and if she has, she has probably already justified doing so in her mind as a way of dealing with her problamatic lifestyle. It really is too bad that Dani and Stacey or anyone else for that matter were her victims, but I hardly believe that this is her first and last time at this type of behaviour.

This has been a good discussion about trying to see the good in people, which I do each and everyday with my at-risk students, but every once in awhile, I come upon a situation that upsets and disappoints me to no end, and I realize that my expectations of that person were too high and so perhaps that's where Dani and Stacey may be now.  

Thanks for posting your stories as a way to remind people just how precarious and sensitive a DVC rental transaction can be, as well as reminding us of how most people are good and decent.

Sending pixie dust your way that everything is resolved quickly and in a positive manner. 

Tiger


----------



## dianeschlicht

I agree with Jim that there is nothing DIS boards can do about this problem, because no posting guidlines were violated.  The DIS can't control people acting with faulty morals.  

Dani, and Stacey, I hope you guys are doing ALL you can behind the scenes to get your money and/or trips back.  I have seen it mentioned on this thread several times about "no good deed goes unpunished".  I happen to believe that we all reap what we sow, and I think the self contron and restraint shown by Dani and Stacey is going to win out in the end, and they will reap the rewards in one way or another.  I also think the "PP"(as we seem to be calling her) will "get what is coming to her" too.  You can't steal someones money and/or dreams and not have to answer for it somewhere.  She is probably very scared right now, and rightfully so.  I just hope Jim is right, and that she owns up to her mistakes and does the right thing where these folks are concerned.  

Here's another bit of pixie dust for a resolution, Dani, and Stacey!


----------



## Viki

Tiger926 said:
			
		

> I've been following this thread from the beginning and it's very heartening to see such compassion and altruism from everyone to Dani and Stacey. This will not bring their money back, but as they both have mentioned, it surely helps in dealing with the issue and moving forward from it.
> 
> As a special education teacher of at-risk students, I see this kind of thing happen each and everyday with my students - their mantra is: "Trouble finds me, Miss." And I always fire back, "No, you find trouble." The PP is obviously someone who finds trouble, and unfortunately, Dani and Stacey got caught up in it
> 
> I am the biggest optimist you'll meet (ok, maybe Dani & Stacey are bigger than I , but I do feel that the PP has already made the choice not to do what is right here.  This person sounds so much like my students - in fact, I have one student who has lost about 30 grandmas in the last year alone! The PP posted in another thread about her personal and social issues (lost job, mother passed away, homeless, etc.), but the bottom line is that none of that is anyone's issue except her own. I constantly get into discussions with my students about  how the world owes them because they have crappy lives - we all know that the stealing money from two honest people planning family vacations is not a great way in dealing with your problems, but if the PP is like my students (and she seems to be wearing those shoes!), then it's probably going to take a monumental act to make her give back the money, as she more than likely has already spent it.
> 
> This has been a good discussion about trying to see the good in people, which I do each and everyday with my at-risk students, but every once in awhile, I come upon a situation that upsets and disappoints me to no end, and I realize that my expectations of that person were too high and so perhaps that's where Dani and Stacey may be now.
> 
> Thanks for posting your stories as a way to remind people just how precarious and sensitive a DVC rental transaction can be.
> 
> Sending pixie dust your way that everything is resolved quickly and in a positive manner.
> 
> Tiger



WOW, my experiences are so very different from yours - the exact opposite, in fact.

I have two adopted children, both of whom are at risk. My daughter just turned 18 and, as such, because her IQ is only 65, she is legally entitled to SS benefits, but she has to apply for them. Well, you should have seen the two family "discussions" we had to have this week just to bring her to the point of letting us make the phone call. Why? Because she doesn't want any "special" considerations, ever! She intends to make her own way, and so far she's proved it by holding down a part time job at Burger King for two years now, while also finishing high school. I'm so proud. 

I'm also proud of the Dis Team for how they have attended to this situation.


----------



## KandiB47

Awful, awful story!  I feel bad for you


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Yes, the individual that is the subject of this thread needs to understand that she is not off the hook just because so many people have been willing to help Dani and Stacey.  In our attempts to help the "victims," we may have created a false sense of security for the "victimizer"...she may feel we're all going to make D&S feel so warm and fuzzy that everything will just be forgotten.  That shouldn't (and isn't) going to happen.  I have faith that the right people are involved to follow-up on this and let our judicial system take over if need be.


----------



## dianeschlicht

> let our judicial system take over if need be.


I think that is EXACTLY where this needs to go, and I hope both of the victims here are pursuing that avenue.  While it might be left only to small claims court, it NEEDS to be done and carried through to get the message across loud and clear to the "PP".


----------



## Anjelica

JimMIA said:
			
		

> The DIS has already done what they need to do with regard to this particular situation.  I guarantee you that no one who has been involved in this situation has anything but the greatest praise for the DIS and the way they have responded.
> 
> ETA:  I should add that the DIS has taken additional steps to deter this kind of activity, and I'm sure they will continue to be watchful...as they always have been.  It's a credit to the DIS (not just the site administration, but the members as well) that there have been so few bad scenarios over the years.
> 
> Also, I have no doubt that the DIS would ban anyone they felt violated DIS policies or engaged in illegal activities.  I don't know exactly how they do that, but I'm sure they evaluate each situation on its own merits and do what is right in that particular situation.



As I am in no way or shape blaming the DIS boards for anything that has taken place.  I am not in the loop on what takes place behind the boards in terms of how things are taken care of (nor should I be) but was merely expressing my hope/desire that folks like this person who has severly damaged two peoples vacations wouldn't be allowed to do it again on these boards to anyone one else.

IMHO this person has certainly damaged the "credibility" of those on the R/T boards who are either renting or seeking to rent (when we all know most of those people are good honest folks).  I guarantee you folks are thinking twice about renting from folks on the R/T board and I think thats just not right.  

Again - I'm not going to play like I know how things work in the background, etc. but I guess it would be nice to know for the many users of these boards that when dishonest folks take advantage of others that the situation is addressed so that it doesn't happen to others again.


----------



## Anjelica

I do see how the R/T board is merely providing a service and is not liable for fradulent activities.  Just wishful thinking on my part as I don't really want to hear about this ruining good peoples vacations again.

There is just no telling or real legitimate way for us to know who are the good ones and who are the bad ones (unlike ebay you can get a better feeling via their comments, etc.).  I truly have no idea who this person is and due to that I very well may never rent from the R/T board unless I know the person has been on these boards for years and I have "interacted" with them.


----------



## minniemomof3

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I just wanted to say how sorry i am for Stacey, Dani and InstImpres.  I truly hope that everything works out in the end.     

I also have a reservation I rented from another member for an upcoming trip, reading this thread has made me very nervous about my own reservation.  Fortunately, I was able to check on the reservation and everything is ok.  I guess we have to remember that most renters are honest people and we shouldn't allow these few bad apples to ruin it for everyone.


----------



## JimMIA

Anjelica said:
			
		

> As I am in no way or shape blaming the DIS boards for anything that has taken place.  I am not in the loop on what takes place behind the boards in terms of how things are taken care of (nor should I be) but was merely expressing my hope/desire that folks like this person who has severly damaged two peoples vacations wouldn't be allowed to do it again on these boards to anyone one else.


If you are referring to this person specifically, I think that has already been accomplished.  

In the broader picture, I think you have to realize that there are probably thousands of DIS R/T transactions each year, and until this week, I'd only heard one or two stories where someone actually lost money.  We occasionally hear of problems, but those are usually just misunderstandings which get worked out and everybody goes away happy.  I can still count the bad rentals on one hand...although I am running out of fingers.



> IMHO this person has certainly damaged the "credibility" of those on the R/T boards who are either renting or seeking to rent (when we all know most of those people are good honest folks).  I guarantee you folks are thinking twice about renting from folks on the R/T board and I think thats just not right.


You are absolutely right -- this situation HAS definitely damaged the credibility of people on both sides of the transactions on the R/T board.  We've already seen posts from both DVC owners trying to rent points, and from potential renters, expressing legitimate reservations about renting. The answers to that are a) there is a very low level of problem rentals, and b) WE have to protect ourselves by doing a sensible amount of research and using a sensible amount of caution.



> Again - I'm not going to play like I know how things work in the background, etc. but I guess it would be nice to know for the many users of these boards that when dishonest folks take advantage of others that the situation is addressed so that it doesn't happen to others again.


Again, you are exactly right.  That piece is a work in progress.  Despite all of our wishes for an immediate resolution, these things sometimes take time.  It's too early to tell how this will turn out, because that's really up to the other party.





> There is just no telling or real legitimate way for us to know who are the good ones and who are the bad ones (unlike ebay you can get a better feeling via their comments, etc.). I truly have no idea who this person is and due to that I very well may never rent from the R/T board unless I know the person has been on these boards for years and I have "interacted" with them.


I would agree that it is difficult to develop trust in a renting transactions, but there have also been some horror stories with eBay as well, both with transactions and with their feedback system.  No system is perfect.  I believe I've seen posted that the DIS did investigate setting up a feedback system and decided it was not a good idea.  

If someone doesn't like a non-feedback system, or doesn't feel comfortable doing the background research necessary to do a DVC rental here, they always have the options of eBay and several other sites.  They'll probably pay a few dollars more for their DVC accommodations, but that may not be a bad tradeoff for some folks.  And, of course, there is always Disney CRO.


----------



## dumbo71

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Doc has really done everything we could expect, and a lot more.
> 
> I don't think it is realistic to expect the DIS to ban someone because there was a dispute with a rental.  Nor is it possible for the DIS to become an investigative body or arbitration board.




Jim, this is the first statement you've made that I've read that I disagree with.  

Even though we can't expect the Disboard police we all should expect that if someone is scamming honest Disboard members then there posting privledges should be revoked.  I'm sure this could be done quite easily using an IP adress of the offender.

What is next, cursing at each other? How about name calling? Violations of posting guidelines should lead to being banned.  It keeps this a nice forum for everyone. Now, is there a bigger violation than ripping someone off?  

I do agree more time may be necessary here, but to allow the said offender to continue posting and renting is just wrong IMO. She could have made it right by now and has not to our knowledge.


----------



## Lynne M

If this thread isn't proof that the good people in the world more than balance out the bad ones, I don't know what is.

I've been so impressed with the kindness and generosity of the folks on these boards, the professionalism of the moderators, and the decent, honorable way that Dani and Stacey have handled this situation.  

I would have happily donated to 'replacement' vacation funds for Dani and Stacey, but I completely understand why they wouldn't accept a donation. So, instead, I'm going to take that money and give it back to this community of wonderful folks by becoming a DISboards sponsor.  I hope some of you will join me.


----------



## Frankiesmom

I just read this whole thread beginning to end;this whole affair is sickening! I myself have rented out some points twice and I am in no way an expert-but it makes me leary to think of doing this a 3rd time as in what happened to Imtipres. This is all so sad-I hope this gets resolved for everyone involved and I wish you both the best of luck-and magical disney vacations! Angel


----------



## JimMIA

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> Jim, this is the first statement you've made that I've read that I disagree with.


Heck dumbo71, you're doing a lot better than I am!  I've said a half-dozen things today alone that I disagree with! 


> Even though we can't expect the Disboard police we all should expect that if someone is scamming honest Disboard members then there posting privledges should be revoked.  I'm sure this could be done quite easily using an IP adress of the offender.


You're not saying anything different than what I'm saying.  But there is a difference between a dispute and a scam.  There is also a huge difference between an allegation and proof.  And that, I think, is the crux of the DIS problem with becoming the rental police.  They are dependent on volunteer mods, who don't have the time to investigate complaints and make judgements about who is right and who is wrong in a dispute or allegation.



> What is next, cursing at each other? How about name calling? Violations of posting guidelines should lead to being banned.  It keeps this a nice forum for everyone. Now, is there a bigger violation than ripping someone off?


 Surely ripping someone off is worse, but regardless of the offense, I think you would want to be very sure before you ban someone.  When people flagrantly violate posting guidelines -- despite being repeatedly warned -- there isn't much doubt about what they've done.  Fraud cases are much more complex than that, and it's much more difficult to assess.



> I do agree more time may be necessary here, but to allow the said offender to continue posting and renting is just wrong IMO. She could have made it right by now and has not to our knowledge.


I honestly don't know whether the offending party has been banned or not. I actually think there is benefit in her being able to read this thread, and post to it if she chooses.  

I do care if she rents, but I do not believe that is occurring.  I'm often wrong, and I'm open to being corrected on this, but I don't think she's renting.


----------



## Frankiesmom

I just found that other thread very interesting reading...she is nuts! I hope this works out for everyone involved.


----------



## Sammie

I think before anyone critizes the DIS board R/T staff one needs to remember they get nothing out of offering the service and probably a great deal of headaches.

Also as in other situation when people are quick to critize Disney, there is always two sides and other than Dani, Stacey and possibly Jim, no one knows for sure what the DIS team has done to assist in this situation or prevent future ones. You have to take that on trust.

If you don't have trust in the team on the forum you have the option to not use them.


----------



## JimMIA

Sammie said:
			
		

> no one knows for sure what the DIS team has done to assist in this situation or prevent future ones. You have to take that on trust.


1.  That's absolutely true, and

2.  They're also not going to advertise what they've done.  That would not be helpful.

So, as Sammie rightly said...you have to take that on trust.  I can tell you that your trust is well-placed and there are NO worries about the DIS response.  None.


----------



## 3DisneyKids

I have been up with both this thread and the other one from the beginning.  I am both heartened and sickened by the behaviors that have been exhibited.  Fortunately, there are far more of us who are honest and supportive of those who have been wronged, and just the few who are tarnishing things here and truly creating havoc for the victims.

Watching Tom and Jim and Doc (while on vacation, to boot!) go above and beyond has been amazing.  I only have one question here...and this is just out of curiosity...no judgement intended...

Jim--what is your role in this?  While you have clearly been helpful in the situation, I am not sure under what capacity you are operating?  Are you a lawyer or in law enforcement?  Or just a great and helpful guy?  (Well, we already know that you are that!      )

Certainly, if this is an inappropriate question, just say so and I apologize in advance.  I am just one of the many who is hopeful for a positive and SPEEDY resolution to these matters.


----------



## Jim from Jersey

Dani & Stacey..........I've been on these boards for 6 years now and yet I am only just coming up on 300 posts.  I read a lot and only really post when I have something, that I feel is helpful, to post.  I am new to the DVC forums as I only bought into DVC last year.  However, over my time on the DIS, this rates up as one of the worst things I have read about.  My heart hurts for both of you and I pray that this ends on a positive note for everyone involved.  However,  I am a Port Authority of NY & NJ Police Officer and although I would not be able to help you directly with the situation, if you need assistance with any NY agencies contact info, etc. regarding the law enforcement end, I would be more than happy to see if I could assist.  Please feel free to PM me if you need any assistance. 

On a lighter note, gotta go watch my METS!  Best of luck...........Jim
12:00 AM........Well, there'll be no more watching my METS! Ugh!


----------



## Muushka

I too have followed this thread from the beginning, not commenting.  But I have to say, as sad as it began and as sad as it became, there are sure some very bright spots.  From the well wishes to Tom's very generous offer, Granny's 'Manly Pixie Dust' and several others generous offers and now an offer of 'official help' Jim from Jersey.

Is this a great community or what??

PS I hope this is resolved.  Hugs to all 3 victims in this mess.


----------



## goofynme

I am just now for the first time reading this post...last year in November I contacted a Dis user on the Rent/Trade board regarding a transfer of 172 DVC points...I paid over $1500 for the points blindly.  I learned a very valuable lesson as almost a year later I am out the money.

What is strange is the user, a woman from NY originally transferred 41 of the points, then called back and stated there was a use year problem and was having difficulty transferring the rest.  After a day of waiting for confirmation that she transferred the rest of the points she called to tell me her grandma died.  

Long story short she ripped me off and I have filed charges but the police don't help alot.  I have a  strange feeling the OP is dealing with the same person re-regegistered.  

As for the moderators they are clear that it is not Dis boards responsiblity to be involved which I respect but they can not really help us in any way.  Would love to talk privately with the original poster  if you read this!!


----------



## 3DisneyKids

OMG...don't tell me she did it to someone else, too!!!  The PP is from NY and your person was from NY....death in the family...this sounds way too familiar...


----------



## mmmcq

OMG.  I have been following this thread from the beginning.  I'm incredulous and sick to my stomach again.

Goofynme - did you not post on the boards after this happened?  That's not a criticism.  I'm just wondering if anyone picked up on your problem at the time.

Unbelievable.  Even if it's not the same PP - it's a similar situation that we seem not to have heard much about before this.  It's frightening really.


----------



## Scotch

goofynme said:
			
		

> I am just now for the first time reading this post...last year in November I contacted a Dis user on the Rent/Trade board regarding a transfer of 172 DVC points...I paid over $1500 for the points blindly.  I learned a very valuable lesson as almost a year later I am out the money.
> 
> What is strange is the user, a woman from NY originally transferred 41 of the points, then called back and stated there was a use year problem and was having difficulty transferring the rest.  After a day of waiting for confirmation that she transferred the rest of the points she called to tell me her grandma died.
> 
> Long story short she ripped me off and I have filed charges but the police don't help alot.  I have a  strange feeling the OP is dealing with the same person re-regegistered.
> 
> As for the moderators they are clear that it is not Dis boards responsiblity to be involved which I respect but they can not really help us in any way.  Would love to talk privately with the original poster  if you read this!!




UGH!!!  It sure sounds like you dealt with the same person!!!


----------



## Jets fan

I have followed this thread and feel sickened what some people will do, but also heartened that there are people out there who really do care. 

It's looking more and more possible that this could be large scale fraud as we do not know how many people have been scammed who have never posted on this board.

Best thing you can do is go to the police with as much info as possible. I would also try to get your story in the press as they really do have an enormous amount of power. Even though I do not think you will ever get your money back at least you can hopefully stop it happening to somebody else.

All national newspapers have news desks and you can just email your story and they will pick it up.

It's not an ideal solution and would take a huge amount of guts as it will invade your privacy, but it may help somebody else and you never know where the money he/she/they scam from people goes.

These are just my thoughts but I work in PR so know that journlists are not all the big bad people they are made out to be.

Good luck


----------



## greenban

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> Jim, this is the first statement you've made that I've read that I disagree with.
> 
> Even though we can't expect the Disboard police we all should expect that if someone is scamming honest Disboard members then there posting privledges should be revoked.  I'm sure this could be done quite easily using an IP adress of the offender.
> 
> What is next, cursing at each other? How about name calling? Violations of posting guidelines should lead to being banned.  It keeps this a nice forum for everyone. Now, is there a bigger violation than ripping someone off?
> 
> I do agree more time may be necessary here, but to allow the said offender to continue posting and renting is just wrong IMO. She could have made it right by now and has not to our knowledge.



As noted by WMD (during a prior post on his Vacation no less!!!  )

I too feel strongly.  So far the PP has not violated DISboard guidelines, and can't be banned.  Perhaps it is time to modify the guidelines to include fraud, theft, deceit, etc. as a guideline eligible for banning.  I don't think that means immediate banning, or even permanent banning (especially for a first offense), but warnings and temporary bannings have proven effect as well.

Otherwise, this PP will return to easy pickings, namely the R/T board, and then perhaps others will join in on the feeding freenzy.  Then this valuable service between Owners and Renters will cease to be....

Just my thoughts as an 'outsider' to this case.  I'm not criticizing anyone or any action.  I'm just offering my opinion from the facts so far shared with me.

Even if Icouldn't rent, or the R/T boards left, I will always be a participating member of the best Disney community (on-line or otherwise), the DISboards!

Long may they live!

-Tony


----------



## Olaf

goofynme said:
			
		

> Long story short she ripped me off and I have filed charges but the police don't help alot.  I have a  strange feeling the OP is dealing with the same person re-regegistered.



Geez Louise, how many people has this happened to?  Is the rental board this woman's gravy train?  I know DVC can't do anything about it, but they might want to know that one of their members, or someone acting on behalf of a member is involved in these kinds of activities.


----------



## chris1gill

goofynme said:
			
		

> Long story short she ripped me off and I have filed charges but the police don't help alot.  I have a  strange feeling the OP is dealing with the same person re-regegistered.



Did you file a small claims case or anything like that?  

I think the long and short of this story at the moment is don't rent from any woman in NY since we don't exactly know who this person is    How sad is this?  I've been very naive through the last few years, that's all I can say... For the grace of god go I (and my money & points)...

This has really opened my eyes.....


----------



## dianeschlicht

Okay, so maybe there is a 4th one?  Incredible.  Obviously, she has gotten away with it all along the way.  I hope the buck STOPS here!  GO Get her, guys!!


----------



## mama03

Just a side note.  I as a concerned member would like to say that I would warn anyone who is renting for the first time to see how long someone has been a member.  Second, see if you can get a referral.  The longer someone has been a member the better your chances that this person is legit.  Also, I noticed this person might have reregistered and the moderators locked them from the rent/trade board.  People are concerned and are reacting so this does not happen again.


----------



## twinklebug

Jets fan said:
			
		

> Best thing you can do is go to the police with as much info as possible. I would also _try to get your story in the press as they really do have an enormous amount of power. _ Even though I do not think you will ever get your money back at least you can hopefully stop it happening to somebody else.
> 
> All national newspapers have news desks and you can just email your story and they will pick it up.




I think in this(these) case(s) going to the media could cause more harm than good to all parties, including the DIS community. It could shed a bad light on DVC, DVC renters, owners and open up a world of scamming options to folk who ordinarilly would have stayed with their "you mail me $20, I'll send you a list" enterprises. Best that this stays private & with legal consult. 

Now, alerting the general public about financial and personal safety on the web in general is a good thing   I applaud anyone who writes a well thought out column on safety practices on the web. It can only help those who are less informed.​


----------



## DMKEDM

In defense of "all people in NY": this is ONE bad actor...anyone contemplating a rental agreement w/someone in NY, feel free to PM me for a reference...totally not fair to the good people in NY to tar them w/this bad person's brush! 

No update yet, unfortunately...but still some hope (remind me: it was one week ago today that this happened. Seems like a "lifetime" by now! But there is still hope.)

Happy day; happy weekend; and don't forget there IS magic in this world: at WDW, among this cybercommunity, and elsewhere too...life is good; people are good except for some bad things. This is one of those bad things. It's being dealt with and most of the dealings can't be shared here (yet, anyway)...

So for those who worry about their plans to rent: check in w/one of us victims (lucky us! grin) or their helpers and we'll let you know if you've stumbled on this person...as for the rest, don't forget the original point of this thread: there WERE warning signs and they were big and they were obvious...if you're in a rental agreement negotiation, you'll be able to avoid what happened to me simply by looking for these warning signs; if you see them, either run away right then, or explore further to see if they're real signs of problems or something that can be explained to your satisfaction...don't forget, it took my "cooperation" for this scam to work! (and yes, I feel very very VERY stupid!)

Bottom line for those who worry about the ability of this person to "do this deed" again...it's simply not possible if the person she's dealing with has read this thread ... the similarities will be incredibly obvious...

I hope we all have a pixie-dust day!


----------



## deedeetoo

I also have been following this thread daily and feel just terrible for the people involved.  We briefly considered renting points back when we first became interested in DVC and just couldn't bring ourselves to do it because we feared a situation like this.  I am praying for all involved.

After reading here, I went over to the R/T board and noticed that there are a lot of postings by individuals with very low post counts.  Much more than I've seen on other boards.  I think it is possible that there is much more fraud going on than people are aware of.  Its too easy to create a new account, use it a few times, then abandon it after problems arise and start another account.

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent.  Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts.  This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud.  And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first.  Just a thought.


----------



## robinb

chris1gill said:
			
		

> I think the long and short of this story at the moment is don't rent from any woman in NY since we don't exactly know who this person is    How sad is this?


Please don't penalize people from NY!  

The long and the short of it is for to rent from people who are trustworthy.  In my opinion, that means they are people who are established here on the DIS, who will explain the process to you in ways you understand, who will not pressure you to pay in ways you are not comfortable with, who answer all your calls, PMs and emails and who provide a contract so everything is understood.  You can rent from a newbie, or someone who is flaky or who wants you to pay by Western Union, or who doesn't "bother" with a contract and you would probably be fine.  However, I think as you chip away at each of the attributes you run a greater risk of being had.


----------



## 3DisneyKids

deedeetoo said:
			
		

> After reading here, I went over to the R/T board and noticed that there are a lot of postings by individuals with very low post counts.  Much more than I've seen on other boards.  I think it is possible that there is much more fraud going on than people are aware of.  Its too easy to create a new account, use it a few times, then abandon it after problems arise and start another account.



There is a reason that there are so many on R/T with low post numbers....there are at least 2 (that I personally know of) "e-Books" out there that are "How to Save BIG on a Disney Vacation" type of things.  BOTH of the 2 that I know of have a chapter about how to rent on the DIS boards...it walks the reader through the entire process...getting a screen name, going to the R/T board , how to word your post, and so on.

I am not sure if the "authors" of these "books" (and I use these terms liberally, as I do not consider there real books) are being ethical in selling this information or not, but one is sold for $19.99 and the other is around $15 or so, I think (both you just download once you have put your money through).  A friend of mine ordered these hoping to save and then realized that there was nothing in there that you couldn't get from Mousesavers and Allearsnet (and, of course, the DIS).

So again, do not assume that low posts = lack of ethics.  Yes, the cases here are very upsetting and awful...but we all had low post counts at some point.

I think if there was tons of fraud going on, we would here more of these stories.  Fortunately, these seem to be few and far between...and if several are from just one person, then the number of fraudulent renters is really low.


----------



## rkdahl

deedeetoo said:
			
		

> I also have been following this thread daily and feel just terrible for the people involved.  We briefly considered renting points back when we first became interested in DVC and just couldn't bring ourselves to do it because we feared a situation like this.



Just remember this is only a very high profile example of, hopefully, one bad renter. As with everything else in life there are always a few bad apples in anything. There are thousands of rental transactions that have gone just fine with happy people on both sides of the transaction. 

If you take reasonable precautions when renting (time on boards, signed contracts, meeting agreed to commitments, no 'rushed' transactions, etc) you can have a wonderful vacation in a DVC rental. So don't be dismayed from renting because of just this thread.

We're all hoping for a positive outcome for this particular situation and we all feel terrible for what has happened here.


----------



## JandD Mom

I agree, a low number of posts does not necessarily mean the person is not trustworthy.  

Before I joined DVC and I rented points, I "interviewed" owners until I found the ones I felt comfortable renting from.  Those I rented from tended to be professionals or business owners who I could verify.  If someone has a long-standing business, or a professional license, I feel they are much less likely to be less than honest in one of these transactions.  Why?  THey have assets AND you can FIND them.

If you are renting, you should not be afraid to ask for references, and you should VERIFY them.  

However, I was willing to pay a bit more per point to make sure I had this security.

Also, keep in mind, often the "fly by night" people may advertize their points for a very very cheap price.  Just like when you are purchasing over the internet, ebay, or wherever remember, if the deal is too good to be true, it probably isn't true!


----------



## minniemomof3

Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent.  Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts.  This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud.  And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first.  Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a great idea!


----------



## robinb

deedeetoo said:
			
		

> Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent.  Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts.  This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud.  And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first.  Just a thought.



I think this is a _*great*_ idea!

ETA: Since the R/T board is moderated the mods can also verify that the person didn't just say "bump" for 50 posts.


----------



## dumbo71

minniemomof3 said:
			
		

> Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent.  Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts.  This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud.  And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first.  Just a thought.



I think this is a great idea![/QUOTE]


I disagree.  Number of posts is NOT the only factor here.  Quality of the posts should be a factor as well.  The biggest factor should be a written contract, willingness of the renter to comunicate openly an honestly about the entire process and perhaps a referral list of satisfied rentees. Also the red flags that have been discussed here in this thread should scare someone away.

Under this suggestion that you like all a scammer would have to do is post 50 posts in 6 months to be considered reliable.  Not hard to do for sure.

There is no perfect system but at least the scammers are few and far between.


----------



## dumbo71

Sammie said:
			
		

> I think before anyone critizes the DIS board R/T staff one needs to remember they get nothing out of offering the service and probably a great deal of headaches.
> 
> Also as in other situation when people are quick to critize Disney, there is always two sides and other than Dani, Stacey and possibly Jim, no one knows for sure what the DIS team has done to assist in this situation or prevent future ones. You have to take that on trust.
> 
> If you don't have trust in the team on the forum you have the option to not use them.




Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be critical of the Dis or the mods.  I feel Doc went above and beyong to help bring a resolution.  I also love this forum and trust the Dis and the mods. 

What I'm hoping for is to have a series of steps in place to prevent this from happening again, if possible. 

These nice people are living a nightmare and one nobody else should have to endure.  It isn't a good feeling to be burned.

I hope this all works out.


----------



## robinb

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> Under this suggestion that you like all a scammer would have to do is post 50 posts in 6 months to be considered reliable.  Not hard to do for sure.



You missed my edit about the mods checking the posts ...

Of course it isn't fool (or scam) proof.  But it will slow down the casual scammers.  Too many hoops fto jump through makes a scammer go find easier pickin's elsewhere.

This is going to sound harsh and I have been flamed for this opinion before, but here goes ... As for the honest newbies who wish to post posts for rent: too bad.  I think the R/T board is a great idea but I think that it should be for members of the DIS Community.  Not for someone who wants to dump his/her points.  There are other places for that.  I would like to see a restriction on those who want to rent out their points, but not those who want to rent for a vacation.


----------



## Frankiesmom

I just have to say it again-this thing is soooo sad!


----------



## Lewisc

It's not possible.  The six month rule won't help much.  Some owners and renters come here specifically to rent.  The person's join date is available and people can use that as one criteria in deciding who to do business with.

I don't want to beat up posters who made a mistake but an owner that demands payment via Western Union puts up a red flag.  

I'm not sure what the board can do or should do.  Although I wouldn't expect DIS could enforce such a rule, I'd like to have a rule that states posters can only offer for rent DVC properties they (or their spouse) own.  Violating that rule would have given DIS an objective way to ban the person in question after the Vogel situation.  I certainly wouldn't be comfortable paying someone other than the owner.





			
				dumbo71 said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be critical of the Dis or the mods.  I feel Doc went above and beyong to help bring a resolution.  I also love this forum and trust the Dis and the mods.
> 
> What I'm hoping for is to have a series of steps in place to prevent this from happening again, if possible.
> 
> These nice people are living a nightmare and one nobody else should have to endure.  It isn't a good feeling to be burned.
> 
> I hope this all works out.


----------



## jamackin

Well, I've been reading this thread since last Saturday and wanted to share my story (completely related).

Last Friday, I got a pm from this same person at 2:45pm saying that they could help with my rental and gave me a phone number.  At 10am on Saturday I called them, but the number didn't work.  So, I pm'd them back and said the number didn't work and they could call me...I gave them my number.  Around 2pm on Saturday, she called me and said she knew she gave someone the wrong number by mistake and was glad I contacted her.  She then gave me her correct number (although I never tried it to see) and her email address.  We set up the rental.  She said she'd call me at 2pm on Monday so we could make a 3way call to Member Services.  Once I had the verbal reservation number, she wanted me to send 50% by money order.  She gave me her name and address.  Then, she wanted me to send the other 50% at 60 days before arrival (the ressie was for next August).  It all sounded fine.  I told her I would send her an email with all the details as I understood them and if should could send me an email back to confirm, that would be great.  She also said that she rented last year (I didn't ask her, she offered the information) and I could look them up on the disboards....the Vogel Family!  

So, I went and found the Vogels and found the "other" thread.  After reading that thread, it sounded like everything worked out fine (this was before the more recent posts on it), so I thought we'd go ahead with it.  I did, although, send the Vogels a pm and an email to see if they had any advice.  I've since realized that they're still on their vacation, so I obviously haven't heard back(I'll bet her mailbox will be full when she returns!).  So, I spent a lot of time on Saturday night and Sunday writing this email to the renter, trying to decide how "legal" to make it sound or should I make it more casual, etc.  I'm so glad I took my time doing that!  After I had written the email (not sent it yet), I decided to poke around the DIS some more.  I went to the renter's original R/T Board post and looked at the other posts by some of the people who replied there and lo and behold, I found this thread. (It was almost as if God was watching out for me!)  After reading through this thread on Sunday, my husband and I decided that we needed to just get out of this transaction.  So, I sent her a pm and an email saying it's just too risky for us and our situation.

Also on Sunday, I saw another post by someone with points that matched our wants, so I pm'd them and went back and forth with them late Sunday night.  They also had a low post count, but did have one other post except for the R/T Board so I checked it out and.....you guessed it, it was on the Vogel's "other" thread!  So, once I saw that, I send them a pm as well saying it was just too risky for us and our situation.  I'm so glad I backed out in time!

We were wanting to rent for next August (a long time from now) and it was for a lot of money (for us at least), so this risk just wasn't worth it.

So, thank you thank you thank you OP for posting this!!!  It saved me a lot of money and heartache!

We rented this summer within 5 months of our trip and for just 3 weeknights so the cost was much less and thus the risk much less.  The transaction went smoothly and I really wanted to do it again for our "big" trip next summer.....my girls are dying to see Stormalong Bay and stay at the BCV.  The cost of it through CRO is amost prohibitive, so I was soooo hoping I could do it by renting.  I may just have to wait a little while and see if one of the reliable and trustworthy and longtimers posts rental points!!

Anyways, just thought I'd add my story to continue to paint the picture.  

Here's hoping all wrongs get righted!

Amita


----------



## JimMIA

robinb said:
			
		

> This is going to sound harsh and I have been flamed for this opinion before, but here goes ... As for the honest newbies who wish to post posts for rent: too bad.  I think the R/T board is a great idea but I think that it should be for members of the DIS Community.  Not for someone who wants to dump his/her points.  There are other places for that.  I would like to see a restriction on those who want to rent out their points, but not those who want to rent for a vacation.


No flames here.  If the DIS were going to consider any changes in policies, THIS is the one I would agree with.  

We always see a lot of totally unrealistic suggestions for improving the DIS, but this is one that is doable.  Whether they would want to is a policy decision only the mods can make -- and there are valid arguments on both sides -- but this is at least doable.

There are, of course, established members who create new user names to rent with, but that concept has always mystified me.  Why would you not want people to know who you are?


----------



## cobbler

jamackin-
Glad you did some research and avoided being a potential victim.

Still hoping for pixie dust for Dani and Stacy.


----------



## Hillbeans

Correct me if i'm wrong because i've been kind of poking in and out of this thread,  however isn't offering points for rent that are not owned by you a violation of the DIS guidelines for DVC rentals? 

Isn't the PP in this thread renting out points that belong to her Aunt/Grandmother and can't this be easily proven?


----------



## JimMIA

Hillbeans said:
			
		

> Isn't the PP in this thread renting out points that belong to her Aunt/Grandmother and can't this be easily proven?


Yes, she was renting out of an account which she says belongs to her aunt.  Whether that relationship is actually true or not is anybody's guess, but she definitely did have the ability to make reservations through the account.

Could ownership and account activity be proven?  Sure.  You'd just subpoena the DVC records and the proof would be right there.

Does *the DIS* have access to info about whether or not someone actually owns points or has legal authority over an account?  Or can they get access to that info? 

No.  How could they?


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Maybe a temporary solution would be to post a sticky at the top of the Rent/Trade Board advising potential renters to avoid any transactions that include payment through Western Union.  

I think many of us have discovered at least two usernames with points for rent by "PP", one of which had a very recent post that included five public responses from people wanting to rent (who knows how many contacted her through PMs).  That thread has now been locked and I sincerely hope that none of the individuals went racing to the local W.U. counter, or we may hear even more stories similar to those on this thread.


----------



## Lewisc

DIS could still have the rule.  Doesn't the DVC confirmation list the name of the owner? If DIS has such a rule the person in question could have be banned after the Vogel situation.






			
				JimMIA said:
			
		

> Could ownership and account activity be proven?  Sure.  You'd just subpoena the DVC records and the proof would be right there.
> 
> Does *the DIS* have access to info about whether or not someone actually owns points or has legal authority over an account?  Or can they get access to that info?
> 
> No.  How could they?


----------



## diznyfanatic

I just want to say again how sorry I am to everyone that has been a victim of this type.

However, there has been some very good things that have come out of this whole mess.

Because of Dani & Stacey posting their stories, what has developed from this thread has become an important _Renting Primer_.  For anyone who might have been too afraid to offend before during a rental transaction, this thread should provide all the courage and excuse needed to do as much as possible to protect yourself on both sides of the transaction.

1.  Do your homework *FIRST*
2.  Know who you are dealing with.  Confirm ownership and check the county website if necessary
3.  Require a *written* rental agreement
4.  Require references and *check them * - Personally, if I am renting from someone on the DIS, I would want DIS references since they can be easily verified.
5.  *Enforce* your rental agreement
6.  Never use Western Union in a rental transaction.  There are too many other options.
7.  Verify all contact information *prior* to remitting any funds
8.  Know beforehand the busy DVC seasons so that you know whether or not it is even likely a reservation would be available
9.  Understand the basic dynamics of how DVC works so that you aren't misled into straying from the rental agreement due to supposed Use Year, Banking, Holding, or other type "problems"
10.  Post or PM an established owner with your questions if unsure about something
11. Listen to your gut
12. Be prepared to pursue whatever legal avenues are available if something does go wrong.

I'm sure there is more, but ultimately, the only way to stop this from ever happening here again is to be vigilant and take the steps to protect yourself *first*.  

We've all learned a very valuable lesson thanks to Dani and Stacey and others.  Hopefully, out of this mess there will far less chance of it happening again.


----------



## JimMIA

Lewisc said:
			
		

> DIS could still have the rule.  Doesn't the DVC confirmation list the name of the owner? If DIS has such a rule the person in question could have be banned after the Vogel situation.


Sure, but think about what you're saying.  She had the authority to make the Vogel reservation, and although a little problematic, the Vogel ressie was completed successfully.  You would ban someone for conducting a successful transaction?

It's been said many times before.  Any system of rules and regulations you set up can be easily defeated by someone who is determined to commit a crime.   We would all be much more productive if we stopped trying to second-guess the DIS management.  We're just beating a dead horse when we should be focused on what prospective renters can do to protect themselves. 

The BEST protection we have is meeting our own individual responsibilities -- not expecting the Fairy Godmother to protect us.  There is no Fairy Godmother.


----------



## JimMIA

diznyfanatic said:
			
		

> 1.  Do your homework *FIRST*
> 2.  Know who you are dealing with.  Confirm ownership and check the county website if necessary
> 3.  Require a *written* rental agreement
> 4.  Require references and *check them * - Personally, if I am renting from someone on the DIS, I would want DIS references since they can be easily verified.
> 5.  *Enforce* your rental agreement
> 6.  Never use Western Union in a rental transaction.  There are too many other options.
> 7.  Verify all contact information *prior* to remitting any funds
> 8.  Know beforehand the busy DVC seasons so that you know whether or not it is even likely a reservation would be available
> 9.  Understand the basic dynamics of how DVC works so that you aren't misled into straying from the rental agreement due to supposed Use Year, Banking, Holding, or other type "problems"
> 10.  Post or PM an established owner with your questions if unsure about something
> 11. Listen to your gut
> 12. Be prepared to pursue whatever legal avenues are available if something does go wrong.
> 
> I'm sure there is more, but ultimately, the only way to stop this from ever happening here again is to be vigilant and take the steps to protect yourself *first*.


Now, *THAT's what I'm talking about!*  Thank you!


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

diznyfanatic said:
			
		

> I just want to say again how sorry I am to everyone that has been a victim of this type.
> 
> However, there has been some very good things that have come out of this whole mess.
> 
> Because of Dani & Stacey posting their stories, what has developed from this thread has become an important _Renting Primer_.  For anyone who might have been too afraid to offend before during a rental transaction, this thread should provide all the courage and excuse needed to do as much as possible to protect yourself on both sides of the transaction.
> 
> 1.  Do your homework *FIRST*
> 2.  Know who you are dealing with.  Confirm ownership and check the county website if necessary
> 3.  Require a *written* rental agreement
> 4.  Require references and *check them * - Personally, if I am renting from someone on the DIS, I would want DIS references since they can be easily verified.
> 5.  *Enforce* your rental agreement
> 6.  Never use Western Union in a rental transaction.  There are too many other options.
> 7.  Verify all contact information *prior* to remitting any funds
> 8.  Know beforehand the busy DVC seasons so that you know whether or not it is even likely a reservation would be available
> 9.  Understand the basic dynamics of how DVC works so that you aren't misled into straying from the rental agreement due to supposed Use Year, Banking, Holding, or other type "problems"
> 10.  Post or PM an established owner with your questions if unsure about something
> 11. Listen to your gut
> 12. Be prepared to pursue whatever legal avenues are available if something does go wrong.
> 
> I'm sure there is more, but ultimately, the only way to stop this from ever happening here again is to be vigilant and take the steps to protect yourself *first*.
> 
> We've all learned a very valuable lesson thanks to Dani and Stacey and others.  Hopefully, out of this mess there will far less chance of it happening again.


Excellent, excellent advice!!!  Thank you!


----------



## LisaS

Lewisc said:
			
		

> DIS could still have the rule.  Doesn't the DVC confirmation list the name of the owner? If DIS has such a rule the person in question could have be banned after the Vogel situation.


I'm not sure if the confirmation still has the name of the owner. But even if it does, this would put the burden of policing the R/T boards on the renters since they would be the ones who would discover the problem when they got a copy of the confirmation in the mail. How many of them would know to report it to a moderator? How many would be comfortable doing that if they know it's going to get someone banned from the DIS?

You also have the problem that when DVC is owned jointly, only one name is put on much of the paperwork from DVC. I handle everything to do with DVC and am listed first on the deed. And yet, a large amount of the paperwork we receive has only DH's name on it. He and I have different last names so if I ever rent out points, there is a good chance that the owner listed on the confirmation would seem to be completely unrelated to me.

I think the 6-month/50-posts rule would be much better. The mods have direct access to the info required to enforce it. They can verify that the person appears to be a member of the community, not just someone posting "Yup" 50 times over 6 months. And if a scammer really did a good job faking it and then commits fraud, they would be banned and have to start all over again. As we've seen with our current situation, once word got out about her she immediately created a new DIS board account and was right back in business. A 6-month/50-posts waiting period would prevent that.


----------



## twinklebug

JimMIA said:
			
		

> There is no Fairy Godmother.




 

   

Jim, do you really think this was the proper thread to destroy my dreams? I suppose next you'll tell me I'm not really Cinderella and the mice I've been talking to while sitting in my fireplace are just common everyday rats.



Broken Dreams aside, people, Jim is 100% right. Vigilance is the ultimate solution here. The DIS is merely a convenient place where we've come together to share our love of Disney. It is not the DIS's place to play big brother here, nor is it economically feasible.


----------



## LisaS

JimMIA said:
			
		

> There are, of course, established members who create new user names to rent with, but that concept has always mystified me.  Why would you not want people to know who you are?


I've wondered about this as well.


----------



## Lewisc

I would ban, assuming there was a rule.

What would have happened if the aunt sold the DVC unit or was in default of maintenance?  I'm not sure how a contract between the Vogel's and the person in question would be binding on the aunt.  Suppose the aunt canceled the reservation because the person in question didn't forward funds to the aunt?  Suppose the aunt doesn't even exist?  There is the potential for outright fraud.  Even an honest renter could be faced with having to offer a last minute refund.

Also their is the potential for someone to rent at $12 a point, have the money wired and then tries to troll for another owner willing to rent for less than $10 point.  

The rent board is for members renting their points, not for people trying to serve as a broker.

Very few DIS use their legal name as their screen name.  It really isn't any issue if the person renting has you make the check payable to the actual owner and the actual owner signs the agreement. Jim, if I rent from you and the confirmation shows the owner as Jane Doe and my check is payable to Jane Doe I don't care (or know) if that's your wife, mother or aunt. I'd be concerned if you had me make the check payable to Jim Smith and the owner on the reservation was Jane Doe.


Lisa the person renting would only complain if there was a problem.  My point is this gives DIS an objective way to ban someone.  









			
				JimMIA said:
			
		

> Sure, but think about what you're saying.  She had the authority to make the Vogel reservation, and although a little problematic, the Vogel ressie was completed successfully.  You would ban someone for conducting a successful transaction?


----------



## Scotch

deedeetoo said:
			
		

> Here's my suggstion for a possible deterrent.  Don't allow anyone to post on that board until they have been a disboard member for at least six months and have accumulated at least 50 posts.  This will inconvenience some people, but it should help weed out the fraud.  And you could argue that it makes sense for other reasons since people should take the time to educate themselves first.  Just a thought.



I know some other community boards have a similiar "min-post number" requirement before being allowed the privilege of using that forums' classified ad-type boards for buying/selling/renting.


----------



## JimMIA

twinklebug said:
			
		

> Jim, do you really think this was the proper thread to destroy my dreams?


Yep!  I don't know about destroying dreams, but this thread is certainly a bubble-burster for a lot of folks.  And that's a good thing.





> I suppose next you'll tell me I'm not really Cinderella and the mice I've been talking to while sitting in my fireplace are just common everyday rats.


Absolutely not!  What kind of a monster do you take me for?  You ARE Cinderella, and you're absolutely gorgeous.  The rats are cute too.


----------



## keishashadow

Just discovered the thread (have skimmed thru), so disturbing, hope it all works out ok for the victims.  Kuddos to TSS for their wonderful gesture.

So glad my prior transactions dealt with honest, upfront sellers so far; haven't had any problem to speak of...one question, slightly OT:

I've used PayPal to fund my purchases, thought once the money went into the account it was valid unless the wrong "payee" received funds?  Am I missing something?


----------



## Hillbeans

Lewisc said:
			
		

> The rent board is for members renting their points, not for people trying to serve as a broker.
> 
> .



Thank you Lewisc - this is really the point I was trying to make - if someone repeatedly was trying to broker the rental of points on behalf of another party, that seems to be against Dis R/T posts, and we have numerous threads stating the fact that the PP is not the owner of the unit.


----------



## mamatojon

LisaS said:
			
		

> I've wondered about this as well.



I don't know, it makes sense to me.  If you are a big time poster and like to post things that are somewhat "controversial" or get into heated arguments with other posters, you are likely to offend either exisiting or potential customers.  Having a separate rental screen name fixes that, no one links the two as one.  Keep in mind I am completely "out of the loop" here, so I could be way off base, LOL.

Back on topic, sorry!


----------



## InstImpres

Scotch said:
			
		

> I know some other community boards have a similiar "min-post number" requirement before being allowed the privilege of using that forums' classified ad-type boards for buying/selling/renting.



I think this would be very easily accomplished.  This board has a min. post requirement in effect for posting URLs, so I am guessing there are functions that could be "turned on"


----------



## JimMIA

Lewisc said:
			
		

> The rent board is for members renting their points, not for people trying to serve as a broker.


Sure, but one of the points you guys are missing here is that there is no way to tell whether someone is an owner or not.  Look at LisaS's post above.  She's an owner, but her husband's name (different from hers) appears on many DVC records.  

I have a similar situation.  My two adult daughters are equal co-owners of the account, but my name alone appears on the confirmations.  They have the same ownership rights I have, they have every legal right to do rentals, but the DVC computer spits everything out in my name.  

Without going through the legal process of subpoening records, nobody would have any way to know whether my daughters were okay or bogus.


----------



## lizziepooh

So now the PP is getting "smarter" and asking for money orders instead of Western Union (jamackin's post) to eliminate one red flag.  I also wonder how many other people have been scammed but are hesitant to post because of feeling like a fool.  I'm sure it is a very small amount, but still the number of deals gone bad may be a few more than we all originally thought. 

There also could be legitimate situations where an elderly relative would ask someone else to handle the rental of their points.   Many older folks  don't have computers and are not computer literate, although In this case, PP says she actually owns the points but they are in the aunt's name. Not sure why that would be.  

I too hope that this all gets resolved, but I'm not real hopeful that folkks will get their money back anytime soon.   I expect the money was spent quite soon after it was picked up if the PP has financial problems,  is homeless, etc.   

I'm curious, how do you recognize that two different user names are the same person?


----------



## Lewisc

Maybe my idea won't work but as a renter I'd prefer to be dealing with whatever name shows up on the reservation as being the owner.  I have no easy way of confirming if your daughter have the legal right to rent to me. If your name appears as owner on my confirmation I'd feel a lot more comfortable having your signature on a rental agreement and possibly even making payment to you.  

DIS could have a rule, or at least a suggestion, that renters deal with whoever is listed as the owner on the reservation.  The very fact that there isn't an easy way to determine if the other person is an owner is a reason to do business with the listed owner.  This is one red flag, if everything else was good and I was dealing with someone like yourself, I might accept the explanation that the contract was jointly owned by your daughter.

We'll have to agree to disagree.





			
				JimMIA said:
			
		

> Sure, but one of the points you guys are missing here is that there is no way to tell whether someone is an owner or not.  Look at LisaS's post above.  She's an owner, but her husband's name (different from hers) appears on many DVC records.
> 
> I have a similar situation.  My two adult daughters are equal co-owners of the account, but my name alone appears on the confirmations.  They have the same ownership rights I have, they have every legal right to do rentals, but the DVC computer spits everything out in my name.
> 
> Without going through the legal process of subpoening records, nobody would have any way to know whether my daughters were okay or bogus.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

*I'm curious, how do you recognize that two different user names are the same person?*

Because she slipped up and posted to a thread under one username, and then immediately followed it almost word-for-word with a second post logging in under her original username (or whatever the "identity du jour" was).


----------



## disneykidatheart

This whole thread is pretty disheartening.  What seemed to be a good thing (renting points to complete vacations) is becoming fraught with mistrust and, in some cases, it should be.

And it will continue to happen.  Many people find the DIS boards, get excited reading posts and learning about all things Disney and the R/T board as an option to make their dreams come true. But I think some get caught up too quickly in the excitement of the moment and don't take proper vigilance when renting those points.

There is a rental option on the R/T board right now.  The renter has been a member for several years and has a respectable number of posts.  I have no reason to believe there is a problem with the renter.  It is the potential rentee whose actions I wonder about.  She first contacts the renter and says she is desperate for only 50 points and wonders if the renter will rent fewer than advertised.  Two days later she contacts the renter again and now says that she thinks she has been scammed for $250 and it is being looked into and now she is really desperate for 50 points.  Hello!

The potential rentee has 9 posts.  Maybe she has lurked for a period of time or maybe she is brand new to the boards.  But wouldn't you think if you suspect you have been scammed you wouldn't jump back into the fire before the problem is resolved?  I love staying onsite at Disney but there are plenty of nearby hotels available to complete those vacation plans.  I can live without staying onsite if necessary, and do on occasion (though I admit it is hard).  

We cannot let ourselves get caught up in the magic to a point where our common sense goes out the window.

I am so sorry for Dani and Stacy.  Rentals seem to have been going so smoothly for a long time that you didn't have a reason to worry about renting.  But your unfortunate experiences have to be a wake up call for the rest of us to be very careful in the future!  My opinion, for what it's worth.


----------



## DVC Daisy

robinb said:
			
		

> You missed my edit about the mods checking the posts ...
> 
> Of course it isn't fool (or scam) proof.  But it will slow down the casual scammers.  Too many hoops fto jump through makes a scammer go find easier pickin's elsewhere.
> 
> This is going to sound harsh and I have been flamed for this opinion before, but here goes ... As for the honest newbies who wish to post posts for rent: too bad.  I think the R/T board is a great idea but I think that it should be for members of the DIS Community.  Not for someone who wants to dump his/her points.  There are other places for that.  I would like to see a restriction on those who want to rent out their points, but not those who want to rent for a vacation.



But, but, but.........what about "lurkers"?  There are people out there who do not post much but read the DIS boards every day!  Are they not part of the community?  What about someone who is a "shy" poster and has read here for years but only post occasionally, vs. someone who joined 6 months ago and chats up a storm?  Who is "really" more a part of the community?


----------



## InstImpres

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Sure, but one of the points you guys are missing here is that there is no way to tell whether someone is an owner or not.  Look at LisaS's post above.  She's an owner, but her husband's name (different from hers) appears on many DVC records.
> 
> I have a similar situation.  My two adult daughters are equal co-owners of the account, but my name alone appears on the confirmations.  They have the same ownership rights I have, they have every legal right to do rentals, but the DVC computer spits everything out in my name.
> 
> Without going through the legal process of subpoening records, nobody would have any way to know whether my daughters were okay or bogus.



Unless things have changed (and I am not on the computer right now with the bookmarked site), DVC Deeds are searchable on line with the Orange County office of something. (sorry, can't remember the official name).  Therefore, if Lisa was to rent or your daughters, a search of that site would prove that at least you own.  Maybe that website could be added to the FAQ thread.

Just a thought


----------



## JimMIA

lizziepooh said:
			
		

> So now the PP is getting "smarter" and asking for money orders instead of Western Union (jamackin's post) to eliminate one red flag.


Yep.  Any system you set up will be defeated by someone determined to commit a crime.  That's not to say protections shouldn't be built in where they make sense, but controls are not the _*answer*_.

And the *other real lesson * there is that it was jamackin's due diligence that protected her -- not her faith in "red flags" or control systems.  She researched things sensibly, didn't feel comfortable, and walked away.  

Walking away is a much better protection than just about any control systems the DIS, or eBay, or anyone else can build.


> PP says she actually owns the points but they are in the aunt's name. Not sure why that would be.


That would be because she's lying.


----------



## Chuck S

Here is the deed search link Orange County Deed Search


----------



## Santa

I have been a member since 1999. In 7 years I have only posted a little over 300. I must be up to no good.    



			
				DVC Daisy said:
			
		

> But, but, but.........what about "lurkers"?  There are people out there who do not post much but read the DIS boards every day!  Are they not part of the community?  What about someone who is a "shy" poster and has read here for years but only post occasionally, vs. someone who joined 6 months ago and chats up a storm?  Who is "really" more a part of the community?


----------



## InstImpres

Chuck S said:
			
		

> Here is the deed search link Orange County Deed Search



Thanks for the link Chuck.  Doesn't it figure, I make the recommendation only to find out the search doesn't work for hypenated names!!   Glad I tried it first, so I would know what to tell people.

FYI for anyone else who is hyphenated, the search works only on the second last name


----------



## DVC Daisy

Santa said:
			
		

> I have been a member since 1999. In 7 years I have only posted a little over 300. I must be up to no good.




Santa -

That was exactly my point!      As there are many, many others out there just like you & I   Are we troublemakers?   

BTW- my very first post (another user name - it was dorky - in 1999!) was in response to a rent/trade add with a WOMAN WHO LIVES IN NY!  She also posts quite a bit - but mostly on political threads!  So, she and I would both seem like risky ones to do business with with all of the qualifications posted above.  We "traded" reservations and both went off with out a hitch!  Painless!


----------



## robinb

lizziepooh said:
			
		

> So now the PP is getting "smarter" and asking for money orders instead of Western Union (jamackin's post) to eliminate one red flag.  I also wonder how many other people have been scammed but are hesitant to post because of feeling like a fool.  I'm sure it is a very small amount, but still the number of deals gone bad may be a few more than we all originally thought.



Well ... I'm still not 100% sure that the PP is trying to scam jamackin.  She said that she had to re-rent the points before she could return the OP's money.  I'm sure that was her attempt.  So jamackin's "due diligence" may have denied the OP her refund.  The problem is that without the PP contacting the first two buyers or coming here to state her case, all we can do is make up scenarios in our minds.


----------



## robinb

DVC Daisy said:
			
		

> But, but, but.........what about "lurkers"?  There are people out there who do not post much but read the DIS boards every day!  Are they not part of the community?  What about someone who is a "shy" poster and has read here for years but only post occasionally, vs. someone who joined 6 months ago and chats up a storm?  Who is "really" more a part of the community?


IMO, a lurker is not part of an online community.  They are an outsider looking in. Especially in a community where information is shared.  They read and take and do not give back.  Like I said before: "Too bad".


----------



## DVC_Couple_PA

InstImpres said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link Chuck.  Doesn't it figure, I make the recommendation only to find out the search doesn't work for hypenated names!!   Glad I tried it first, so I would know what to tell people.
> 
> FYI for anyone else who is hyphenated, the search works only on the second last name



Also it would not work for anyone that owns at VB or HH as they are not in Orange County.


----------



## jodifla

To me, these very sad stories answer the age-old question of why Disney points rent for $10 instead of the $12 or $15 a few members are constantly agitating for.

 The risk factor is HUGE, so people need to feel there is a great deal involved in order to take that risk.

 What happend to Dani and Sandi is unconscionable. It's despicable. And the risk of it happening to any renter is what keeps rental prices lower than what they might be otherwise.


----------



## JimMIA

DVC_Couple_PA said:
			
		

> Also it would not work for anyone that owns at VB or HH as they are not in Orange County.


 Vero is in Indian River County.  In Florida, property records are usually found in the county Tax Assessors or Tax Collectors (or both) section of the county website.  

Orange County must be organized a little different, because I think Orange County is in the Comptroller's office.

There is also a real property search through state government, but I've found it pretty unreliable so I won't post the link.  Property records are maintained at the county level in Florida, so the county sites will always be the most current and accurate.


----------



## brasey

The link to the actual records is a deffinite plus to put a sticky on. I checked my self out just now and it would be a nice extra tool for a renter to verify info. It has the deeded legal names, resort, amount of points and use year.


----------



## Sammie

This is not a response to anyone in particular and Dani and Stacey were brave to come forward and bare their souls to everyone. I wish them both luck in sucessful resolution. 

What has amazed me most about this situation is how trusting many of you are and how surprised you act this happened.

Obviously most of you have been very lucky and never gotten scammed. It happens all the time, hourly. If you want a quick lesson go to Phatcampus.com and buy a book from them. Very impressive website, accepts Credit Cards, Verisign locked for security and they will charge your credit card immediately and send your email confirmation with order number and you will never see your book or your money again and they have done it to many others. My only recourse was my credit card company reversed the charges for me. Only because I deal with a good company. Do a search for reviews on this company and you will how many college students trying to buy textbooks have been ripped off.   

As to using PayPal, thanks to them all my personal information, credit card info, home address, phone number, email address were stolen. Then that person stole other credit card numbers after I closed my account, but used my name and address and phone number and email. Because this happened I can not use PayPal, not that I would in a million years, because my account was linked with fraud, which I did not do, but that does not matter to them. Unless I am willing to get a court order to clear my name. Considering USAToday's recent article stated scammers can buy PayPal passwords to personal accounts for $7.00, I will pass on that court order. At least I know no scammer can open a PayPal account using my info. 

Due to the theft of my info, someone in some 3rd world country was buying merchandise all over the Net using my name. It took me 2 years to straighten it out and only due to having friends in the FBI and Secret Service did I get any resolution. They even opened an Ebay account using my personal info.  

My point is Renting DVC is a risk, as are many things. That is why it is such a bargain. You can take many steps to make it less risky, but it is not fool proof. You can only safeguard so much and the other is just pure trust and lots of luck. The biggest risk in all of this and why I don't rent is Disney will not recognize these transactions and participate in any settlement. Other timeshare communities will.  

The DIS offers a service and to expect them to do more than they do is not reasonable and will not help. The burden is on those participating.

I suggest everyone considering renting, take all the info from this thread and learn from it. Also vrbo.com is a great site with info on how to avoid problems such as this.    

Good luck to all involved and hopefully much has been learned here.


----------



## DVC Daisy

robinb said:
			
		

> IMO, a lurker is not part of an online community.  They are an outsider looking in. Especially in a community where information is shared.  They read and take and do not give back.  Like I said before: "Too bad".



REALLY?  What about the OP in this post?  What if the "lurker" only posts with very useful info?  What if they use the sponsors (I DO!)?  Does that compare to some of the posters who run their post count up just commenting on every little thing?  What if they are on the "clique" threads and run their post count up?  What about very, very active, long time posters who "morph" back with new identities?

If I can get the link to work - this one is good for looking up deeds in Vero:
http://www.clerk.indian-river.org/Records/ByName.aspx


----------



## LisaS

DVC Daisy said:
			
		

> But, but, but.........what about "lurkers"?  There are people out there who do not post much but read the DIS boards every day!  Are they not part of the community?  What about someone who is a "shy" poster and has read here for years but only post occasionally, vs. someone who joined 6 months ago and chats up a storm?  Who is "really" more a part of the community?


I lurked for a while before starting to post. The main reason was that I was new to Disney so I felt I didn't have much to contribute compared to all the experts here on the DIS! And it would not have upset me one bit if I had wanted to post a "for rent" ad on the R/T board and discovered that I needed more of a history here on the DIS before I could do that. I don't see a 6-month/50-posts rule as any more restrictive than the restrictions on posting URLs (Sorry -- I can't remember the number of posts needed before you can do that.) After all, unlike eBay the R/T board is free -- no charge to post an ad here. You're not even required to be a DISboard supporter. I think a "6m50p" requirement is a small price to pay in exchange for being able to place a free "for rent" ad that will reach a huge community of Disney enthusiasts.

Just my $.02.


----------



## Y-ASK

Sammie said:
			
		

> My point is Renting DVC is a risk, as are many things. That is why it is such a bargain. You can take many steps to make it less risky, but it is not fool proof. You can only safeguard so much and the other is just pure trust and lots of luck. The biggest risk in all of this and why I don't rent is Disney will not recognize these transactions and participate in any settlement. Other timeshare communities will.


There is always going to be risk in any adventure that one might take by stepping out thier door.  As Sammie stated, you just need to make it less risky.  This event should not deter anyone from considering the possibility of renting.  Stories like this are few and far between.  In fact I can't remember ever seeing a thread like this stating that a renter got ripped off by a DVC owner.  Most of the time it's the owner that has to deal with un-realistic or un-ethical renters.  There are R/T transactions that take place every day on this forum so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape because of a couple of incidents closely related to one indiviual.  Let's not yell shark or tiger or wolf too quickly now.  Renting is still a very good deal for both renter and owner (Disclosure:  I do rent my points from time to time and I have rented from other owners in the past).  Go, rent, enjoy the trip, just spend a little extra time researching who you are dealing with.

That's all ,
Y-ASK


----------



## JimMIA

*diznyfanatic* has started a new thread entitled *"DVC Point Rental Primer," * based largely on her earlier post here giving a list of "red flags" to watch out for in a rental.

The thread is directed toward non-members who are considering renting a DVC ressie from an owner.  

It is NOT intended for owners who want to discuss their issues in renting, although that might be a good thread for some owners who rent frequently to start.


----------



## disney-super-mom

LisaS said:
			
		

> And it would not have upset me one bit if I had wanted to post a "for rent" ad on the R/T board and discovered that I needed more of a history here on the DIS before I could do that. I don't see a 6-month/50-posts rule as any more restrictive than the restrictions on posting URLs (Sorry -- I can't remember the number of posts needed before you can do that.) After all, unlike eBay the R/T board is free -- no charge to post an ad here. You're not even required to be a DISboard supporter. I think a "6m50p" requirement is a small price to pay in exchange for being able to place a free "for rent" ad that will reach a huge community of Disney enthusiasts.
> 
> Just my $.02.


I agree with this.


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

I was really hoping this lady would turn out to just be flakey and get her issues resolved. The 41 transfer points story was a bit scarey. 

I do think there is a limit to what the Disboards can and should do. Most solutions posted aren't really feasible but I do think the waiting period idea is. 

A six month waiting period for posting rentals is perfectly reasonable. I'm not sure about the minimum post count aspect although without it the PP would have still qualified. If someone wants to post under a psuedonym great but they'd have to wait six months to use it for rentals. 

One other reason I wouldn't worry about post count too much is that circumstances change. A person with a borderline personality may be fine while life is good but when things go south may not be adverse to taking what they need.  The six month waiting period, however, puts an element of premeditation into the behaviour and could serve as a mighty fine deterrent to the casual unethical person.


----------



## LisaS

doubletrouble_vb said:
			
		

> A six month waiting period for posting rentals is perfectly reasonable. I'm not sure about the minimum post count aspect although without it the PP would have still qualified. If someone wants to post under a psuedonym great but they'd have to wait six months to use it for rentals.


The reason I like the minimum posts idea is that otherwise someone considering scamming other people could just create a dozen DIS board names, wait six months and use those multiple identities to rip off a dozen (or more) different people. The minimum post count (with posts that have some actual content, not just posting a smilie or something) requires that they put some effort into it as well as wait it out for 6 months and I think it is the combination of the two that makes it a deterrent to scammers. It also doesn't really penalize the honest people here since it's not too difficult to get to 50 posts when you're enthusiastic about sharing your Disney knowledge with other DIS board members! Just offering your opinion on each "where should I buy" thread or each "Buy from Disney or buy resale" thread that gets posted will get you to 50 posts in no time.


----------



## Lewisc

A fradulent person could create dozen of DIS identities and satisfy any minimum post requirements.  The date a DIS joined and their total post counts are visible.  That's one factor that a person should consider in deciding who to do business with. Let the owner/renter decide how much value to put in this information.

Internet sites such as mousesavers suggest people consider renting points and suggest DIS as a good place to post.  A six month rule might cut out some good people.

I guess DIS could considering charging a nominal annual fee for members that want to post in the rental board.  That would help pay for bandwidth.  It would reduce the number of multiple identities and having to provide a valid credit card might deter some scammers.  The owner is getting money and the renter is getting a good deal on a vacation.  Maybe DIS should get something, even if it's just $10 for the annual right to post in the rental forum.





			
				LisaS said:
			
		

> The reason I like the minimum posts idea is that otherwise someone considering scamming other people could just create a dozen DIS board names, wait six months and use those multiple identities to rip off a dozen (or more) different people. The minimum post count (with posts that have some actual content, not just posting a smilie or something) requires that they put some effort into it as well as wait it out for 6 months and I think it is the combination of the two that makes it a deterrent to scammers. It also doesn't really penalize the honest people here since it's not too difficult to get to 50 posts when you're enthusiastic about sharing your Disney knowledge with other DIS board members! Just offering your opinion on each "where should I buy" thread or each "Buy from Disney or buy resale" thread that gets posted will get you to 50 posts in no time.


----------



## Tiger926

Lewisc said:
			
		

> A fradulent person could create dozen of DIS identities and satisfy any minimum post requirements.  The date a DIS joined and their total post counts are visible.  That's one factor that a person should consider in deciding who to do business with. Let the owner/renter decide how much value to put in this information.
> 
> Internet sites such as mousesavers suggest people consider renting points and suggest DIS as a good place to post.  A six month rule might cut out some good people.
> 
> I guess DIS could considering charging a nominal annual fee for members that want to post in the rental board.  That would help pay for bandwidth.  It would reduce the number of multiple identities and having to provide a valid credit card might deter some scammers.  The owner is getting money and the renter is getting a good deal on a vacation.  Maybe DIS should get something, even if it's just $10 for the annual right to post in the rental forum.



Not sure if this is a good idea as once people pay for a service, they expect a certain amount of maintenance and customer service to go along with that fee - the DIS boards would be in for a whole lot of issues if they started charging a user fee on the r/t board, IMHO. As it stands now, it's just a convenience factor as it's part of the user forum, and so 'renter beware' is definitely in order here as I don't think the DIS boards should shoulder any responsibility for renting or trading points - Disney discourages doing so for a reason as even they don't get involved in renting/trading, and we all need to remember that. As has been mentioned a million times, life is about risk, for some, renting is worth the risk, but for many of us, it is not, nor will it ever be.

Tiger


----------



## BCV23

Without reading 30 pages can someone tell me if it all worked out? TIA!


----------



## LisaS

Lewisc said:
			
		

> A fradulent person could create dozen of DIS identities and satisfy any minimum post requirements.  The date a DIS joined and their total post counts are visible.  That's one factor that a person should consider in deciding who to do business with. Let the owner/renter decide how much value to put in this information.
> 
> Internet sites such as mousesavers suggest people consider renting points and suggest DIS as a good place to post.  A six month rule might cut out some good people.


I think the bigger problem is that much of the business done on the R/T board takes place via PMs. So even if someone met the 6 month/50 post minimum and could post on the R/T board, they could be contacted via PM by someone who just joined the DIS boards. So I do agree with you that both owners and renters should always do their homework.


----------



## alldiz

I hope everything works out...   I recently finally posted after lurking for a 
while to possibly snag a reservation in jan....  Funny only a few very low posters responded.   I was already watching this thread... so I was nervous,
only ssr was available so I definately didn't want to  book. 
I hope this wasn't the same person?
kerri

p.s   took so long to post cause I'm not to computer savvy


----------



## DVCJones

I was hoping to come here and read that everything had worked out for the the parties involved.  

<sigh>


----------



## Granny

BCV23 said:
			
		

> Without reading 30 pages can someone tell me if it all worked out? TIA!


Not yet.


----------



## Disney MAINEiac

T.E. Yeary said:
			
		

> OK, I can't stand anymore of this.  This board has been really good to me and our organization so I am going to make this offer:
> 
> I currently have 224 pts available for use. I will be happy to make them available to the 2 people who were left out in the cold. You can have these points for $5 per point. Since you've already put up half of the money, then you can use your remainder for these and go on that "MAGICAL" vacation.  If these are not enough points for the 2 victims, I should have some more coming in the next week or so.
> 
> Please PM me and I will give you my home phone # so we can do the deal.  You will NOT have to go to Western Union! You can send me a personal check after I make your reservations.
> 
> Happy "magical" vacationing,
> Tom




Anyone thinking of a DVC purchase who doesn't give Tom's company a serious chance after reading this has no soul


----------



## minniemomof3

Do we know for sure the Vogels reservation was completed successfully?  I realize she had a post about her bcv stay, however, is it possible that she had to pay for that reservation when she arrived?


----------



## Alicnwondrln

i just spent the last several hours reading this whole thread 
its just so sad 
i think Toms offer is amazing and I hope it can help one of your families 
I hope you are able to get your $ back and still go away


----------



## JimMIA

BCV23 said:
			
		

> Without reading 30 pages can someone tell me if it all worked out? TIA!


 *NOT fair! *  Don't anybody tell her anything!  Shhhh....


----------



## JimMIA

BCV23 said:
			
		

> Without reading 30 pages can someone tell me if it all worked out? TIA!


 Actually, nothing has changed.  Nor is anything likely to change anytime soon.  

I know we all want instant gratification and are used to the 24-hour news cycle, but these things take time.


----------



## JimMIA

minniemomof3 said:
			
		

> Do we know for sure the Vogels reservation was completed successfully?  I realize she had a post about her bcv stay, however, is it possible that she had to pay for that reservation when she arrived?


I'm pretty sure Heather's ressie went okay.  I know she confirmed it shortly before leaving and it was still good.  If it was not intact, there would not have been any room at the inn for her family.  

If memory serves me, I think they are returning shortly from their cruise, spending a day or two back at WDW offsite, and then going home.  My guess is we'll hear something from them next week.


----------



## robinb

alldiz said:
			
		

> p.s   took so long to post cause I'm not to computer savvy



* to the DIS!!!*

You're doing great .

​


----------



## Deb & Bill

One thing I thought of, what's to keep an unscrupulous renter from using the identity of another DVC member off the Orange County Comptroller's site and telling the potential rentee that they are that person with those points?  Since this information is public information, it would very easy for them to do. 
Then the potential rentee looks them up on the OCC website, see that they are a real person with real points and makes the deal.  Only to be cheated.


----------



## JandD Mom

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> One thing I thought of, what's to keep an unscrupulous renter from using the identity of another DVC member off the Orange County Comptroller's site and telling the potential rentee that they are that person with those points?  Since this information is public information, it would very easy for them to do.
> Then the potential rentee looks them up on the OCC website, see that they are a real person with real points and makes the deal.  Only to be cheated.



Nothing.  I asked that question at least once earlier on this thread.  It is so easy to plug in random names until you get a "hit" on that site, that I am sure you could use someone's name and "check out."

Question, did the PP's "aunt" have a common last name, ie, Miller, Smith, Jones, Roberts etc?


----------



## diznyfanatic

Well...my first reaction after reading Deb's post was to literally gasp at the horror of that thought but after thinking about it for a few minutes, I'm going to "ASSume" that anyone who would do something like that, would also probably use an alias posting ID with a low count, would probably exhibit more than one of the other warning signs, would not be able to provide valid contact information, would not be able to provide verifiable references (particularly if this were a DIS transaction) and wouldn't want to submit a written rental contact.

I'm hoping everyone by now, would RUN from renting from someone like that.

Also, I think you can do a reverse lookup on whitepages.com to verify or match names with phone numbers and addresses.

Another good reason to test the contact information provided.


----------



## disneykidatheart

JandD Mom said:
			
		

> Nothing.  I asked that question at least once earlier on this thread.  It is so easy to plug in random names until you get a "hit" on that site, that I am sure you could use someone's name and "check out."
> 
> Question, did the PP's "aunt" have a common last name, ie, Miller, Smith, Jones, Roberts etc?



I surely hope I don't have to worry that my name is too common!


----------



## InstImpres

diznyfanatic said:
			
		

> Well...my first reaction after reading Deb's post was to literally gasp at the horror of that thought but after thinking about it for a few minutes, I'm going to "ASSume" that anyone who would do something like that, would also probably use an alias posting ID with a low count, would probably exhibit more than one of the other warning signs, would not be able to provide valid contact information, would not be able to provide verifiable references (particularly if this were a DIS transaction) and wouldn't want to submit a written rental contact.



I agree, I was concerned too after reading this.  DIS transactions could possibly be verified by looking at old rent posts.  One thing that I now realize is great is 2 of the renters I give as references now send me an email whenever they give a reference for me.  It would be a giant red flag for me to follow up quickly if I were not the person truly trying to rent.


----------



## JandD Mom

disneykidatheart said:
			
		

> I surely hope I don't have to worry that my name is too common!



Well, our last name has so many letters in it that if someone would ever randomly guess it, then I wish them luck renting out our points! 

So we are thinking we would be safe from this sort of identity theft.


----------



## castleri

minniemomof3 said:
			
		

> Do we know for sure the Vogels reservation was completed successfully?  I realize she had a post about her bcv stay, however, is it possible that she had to pay for that reservation when she arrived?


  Quote by JimMIA 
If memory serves me, I think they are returning shortly from their cruise, spending a day or two back at WDW offsite, and then going home. My guess is we'll hear something from them next week.

There was a post by  VogelFamily on 10/13/06 concerning express checkout and the DDP so apparently the stay went as planned.  Her ticker says 12 days since BCV followed by Disney Magic.  

Since she posted then I am surprised that no one has heard from her yet about the current situations unless of course the trip was 14 days or more. 
__________________


----------



## mom2dzb

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> One thing I thought of, what's to keep an unscrupulous renter from using the identity of another DVC member off the Orange County Comptroller's site and telling the potential rentee that they are that person with those points?  Since this information is public information, it would very easy for them to do.
> Then the potential rentee looks them up on the OCC website, see that they are a real person with real points and makes the deal.  Only to be cheated.



There is actually a thread in the DVC forum here on DIS where DVC owners offer to give their name and hometown to people they don't even know.


----------



## Y-ASK

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> One thing I thought of, what's to keep an unscrupulous renter from using the identity of another DVC member off the Orange County Comptroller's site and telling the potential rentee that they are that person with those points?


Well if you insist on using a personal or credit card check to pay for the points the scammer might have a hard time cashing your check.  Also, as someone else alluded to, you can check out names, addresses, phones numbers, etc. and if you don't asked for that type of information from the owner you're wrong...  Never wire money.  Be wary of a P.O. Box address.  Make sure names, addresses, and numbers match and look closely at the Orange County Comp. info.

Y-ASK

On other thought.  Make sure the owner gives you a legit E-Mail address.  I'd even ask for a work address if possible but be wary of a gmail, hotmail, or yahoo e-mail account.  I probably wouldn't give someone with that type of address my money but if you've got something like @ibm.com I'd probably feel comfortable.


----------



## DVCJones

disneykidatheart said:
			
		

> I surely hope I don't have to worry that my name is too common!




me too!


----------



## JimMIA

castleri said:
			
		

> There was a post by  VogelFamily on 10/13/06 concerning express checkout and the DDP so apparently the stay went as planned.  Her ticker says 12 days since BCV followed by Disney Magic.
> 
> Since she posted then I am surprised that no one has heard from her yet about the current situations unless of course the trip was 14 days or more.


They would have been checking out of BCV on the 13th, then going on a cruise (don't know the duration), and then I think back to WDW.  The total trip was 14 days or a little more I think.  I don't have the exact itinerary, but I think they are still on vacation.


----------



## Kellyscrapbooks

Y-ASK said:
			
		

> Well if you insist on using a personal or credit card check to pay for the points the scammer might have a hard time cashing your check.  Also, as someone else alluded to, you can check out names, addresses, phones numbers, etc. and if you don't asked for that type of information from the owner you're wrong...  Never wire money.  Be wary of a P.O. Box address.  Make sure names, addresses, and numbers match and look closely at the Orange County Comp. info.
> 
> Y-ASK
> 
> On other thought.  Make sure the owner gives you a legit E-Mail address.  I'd even ask for a work address if possible but be wary of a gmail, hotmail, or yahoo e-mail account.  I probably wouldn't give someone with that type of address my money but if you've got something like @ibm.com I'd probably feel comfortable.


Wow....the problems with that is that the only time I've ever been ripped off it turned out the person had been a cashier at a store I shopped in. They took the numbers off the bottom of my check and began making debits to that account electronically. I had to close the account. So no method is totally safe if someone is dishonest. As far as the email is concerned, lots of people use gmail, hotmail, yahoo as their email, that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person or dishonest. My mom uses yahoo because her internet mail is notoriously bad for being able to get into.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Kellyscrapbooks said:
			
		

> (snip) As far as the email is concerned, lots of people use gmail, hotmail, yahoo as their email, that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person or dishonest. My mom uses yahoo because her internet mail is notoriously bad for being able to get into.


I agree.  We have used a Mail.com address for years to avoid having to change it everytime our server changes.  I always have it forwarded from mail.com to my server.  Lots of folks do that so they can see personal email at work too.


----------



## Frankiesmom

any updates on this sad saga?


----------



## diznyfanatic

The only thing I can continue to say is that if someone who is going to turn over a signficant amount of cash, for ANY reason, to someone they don't know and chooses and is determined to take shortcuts, not take the time to perform checks to verify who they are dealing with, then somewhere, sometime, they WILL get ripped off.

Conversely, if you are someone who intends to rent your points, be prepared for some hard questions and expect to have to possibly make some changes to your current procedures or risk not being able to find someone to rent them to.

Thanks to Dani, Stacey and others, this thread has hopefully changed everything about how the rental process on both sides is viewed.  It's been extremely eye opening for me and I'm sure many others.  There has been a lot of very good advice shared on ways to help protect yourself.  

If the information provided doesn't check out from now on, I will walk away.  It's as simple as that.


----------



## DMKEDM

It's frustrating for me (and those who are helping me...and it's true for Stacey, too) to have nothing to report...but the sad fact is that there is as yet nothing we can report...

The waiting continues...

Happy day to alll...Dani


----------



## skibum

We are waiting and hoping with you guys!


----------



## drakethib

Y-ASK said:
			
		

> On other thought.  Make sure the owner gives you a legit E-Mail address.  I'd even ask for a work address if possible but be wary of a gmail, hotmail, or yahoo e-mail account.  I probably wouldn't give someone with that type of address my money but if you've got something like @ibm.com I'd probably feel comfortable.




I understand what you are saying but I think I disagree here. I have a yahoo address that I have been having since Yahoo begin giving Yahoo accounts. In fact, I pay an additional $25 per year to have a Yahoo premium address.

I get tired of the bigger companies such as Road Runner claiming to have all of these spam filters only to get bombarded with Spam. Yahoo has a great web mail feature and other stuff. Plus when I want to chance ISP I don't have to worry about sending a notice out to my friends with a new contact email. Gmail has free pop3 access which is a big plus for many.

I don't not give my work address out because it is in fact for work and some companies are cracking down on personal email.


But don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, I just think a lot more people are starting to use these types of accounts for the convenience.


----------



## diznyfanatic

I'm sorry Dani.  I'm truly sorry for both of you.  

Regretably, if a 32 page and 437 response thread which includes the notion of possible criminal action, hasn't inspired the PP to not make things worse for herself and to make arrangements for repayment, I don't hold out much hope of a resolution any time soon.

I will continue to hope however, that I still might be proven wrong.  

Have you even been able to determine if the PP is even an owner, or at least, manages the account of an owner?

If not, could this be a case as Deb suggested, where the PP simply posted a For Rent notice on the R/T and isn't actually affiliated in any way with DVC?


----------



## twinklebug

diznyfanatic said:
			
		

> Regretably, if a 32 page and 437 response thread which includes the notion of possible criminal action, hasn't inspired the PP to not make things worse for herself and to make arrangements for repayment, I don't hold out much hope of a resolution any time soon.
> 
> I will continue to hope however, that I still might be proven wrong.
> 
> Have you even been able to determine if the PP is even an owner, or at least, manages the account of an owner?



I'm willing to bet the renter is affiliated with DVC in some small manner (someone noted that they had received points transferred, but not all)  and has stopped her rental activities for the time being since the hunt is on, but chances are she'll be back at it within 12 months. THAT is my fear. It may not be here, it may be on a similar site, or through eBay - give her time and she'll be stealing again abusing the good name of DVC member.


----------



## diznyfanatic

twinklebug said:
			
		

> I'm willing to bet the renter is affiliated with DVC in some small manner (someone noted that they had received points transferred, but not all)  and has stopped her rental activities for the time being since the hunt is on, but chances are she'll be back at it within 12 months. THAT is my fear. It may not be here, it may be on a similar site, or through eBay - give her time and she'll be stealing again abusing the good name of DVC member.



Thanks twinklebug, I had forgotten that someone did receive a portion of their transferred points.  Are we sure it was the same PP involved in that transaction?

Has anyone been able to determine the name of the "Aunt"/co-owner to see if it would be possible to contact her to help resolve this situation with the PP?  Inevitably, if Law Enforcement becomes involved and is able to obtain that information, at some point that is probably what will happen anyway.

And I agree with the rest of your post as well.  Unfortunately, we can't save the world from this person.  We can all only do what we can to help protect the members of the DIS to help protect themselves from people such as this.


----------



## Tikitoi

Just read through this saga and hope that ALL (it sounds like more than 2) the victims here get their $$$.


----------



## Patty3

This is just so sad.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Me again, and I just wanted to keep you all up to date.  Nothing new going on.  I know you're all dying to hear good news, but unfortunately I don't have any.  I'll check back in Monday and keep you all posted.  Have a great weekend - Stacey     I love these icons!!!


----------



## dianeschlicht

Sorry to hear that, Stacy and Dani, but I can't say I'm surprised. Hopefully a new week will mean a new reserve to get things done.  I suspect the PP is so far deep in now, that she might feel it's best to "disappear".  Too bad, because SOMEONE is going to know how to find her....maybe her "aunt".


----------



## hygienejean

This is all so sad!  

I have rented points sucessfully 3 times but I did worry all three times that somehow the reservation would be cancelled after I paid for it.  Never happened in fact the folks I rented from were honest and wonderful.  I am sending pixie dust to all of you!


----------



## donaldbuzz&minnie

"In the broader picture, I think you have to realize that there are probably thousands of DIS R/T transactions each year, and until this week, I'd only heard one or two stories where someone actually lost money. We occasionally hear of problems, but those are usually just misunderstandings which get worked out and everybody goes away happy. I can still count the bad rentals on one hand...although I am running out of fingers." (Quoted from JimMIA's post)

I love the DIS Board because of the sense of safety and trust I feel here.  So far I've been lucky - every time I have trusted someone on the DIS Board I have been rewarded in nothing but heart-warming pixie dust (including renting points).  I will keep following this thread because I feel so badly for D & S and hope with my whole heart that there will be some fair resolution.  I'm glad they let us all know about their experiences - taking that time will remind me to be careful.  But I hope none of us have even the tiniest desire to give up on trusting one another - way more than money will be lost by all of us if that happens.  She's one bad apple in an orchard of healthy trees!


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

donaldbuzz&minnie said:
			
		

> She's one bad apple in an orchard of healthy trees!



Amen to that!


----------



## Bird-Mom

This makes me sick to my stomach.  

I posted a week ago looking to rent points and got a PM from the PP.  Offered $9/pt and had already made the reservation. The point cost made my dh a little suspicious because everyone else for the most part is asking $10/pt.  My dh said to tell him no (and dh's friend decided to rent us his points), but before I had a chance to email back, I was away from the computer for a little over 24 hours.  In the time that I did not have computer access, I got several rude emails from PP.  Obviously, he/she wanted the money yesterday.  PP did change how they would take payment, insisting on money orders.  I said no, I wanted to use paypal, so he/she opened up a paypal account and got really irritated with me that paypal had an initial limit of $500/month.  That raised a huge red flag for me...hello, not my fault!  I also felt uncomfortable because it was a hotmail account with a different name (a woman's name) showing in my inbox, and it was signed with a name that I am guessing is male (due to the spelling.  that could easily be a wrong guess on my part).  However, the names didn't match and that bothered me.

Two people have emailed me asking if he is legit.  I explained what happened to me and that I didn't rent from him.  They both had a different name than he presented to me.

Dani and Stacey, you are in my thoughts and I truly wish the best for you.


----------



## castleri

It seems most people feel the PP is a woman-


----------



## InstImpres

JimMIA said:
			
		

> They would have been checking out of BCV on the 13th, then going on a cruise (don't know the duration), and then I think back to WDW.  The total trip was 14 days or a little more I think.  I don't have the exact itinerary, but I think they are still on vacation.



The Vogelfamily is back....here's a post from them and I am sure we'll hear more shortly.  Not sure how to take some of the comments.

From:http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1255828

"Hello Everyone. Returned from the trip of a lifetime only 4 hours ago. Just checking my personal email, hadn't even been on the DIS yet and discovered by accident that a lot has been going on while I was away. I am just beginning to read some of the information and I will post on appropriate topics as I come across the questions but I wanted to say this thread is a great idea and contains so much useful information in an organized format. My end result was positive but not without extreme stress and difficulty. I would definitely do many things differently but want to emphasize that I thought I had asked all of the right questions and followed appropriate precautions, but being a non-owner, it really is impossible to know what questions and precautions to take in the first place. This will help.

Jim, your post provided much insite. I see clearly now why your efforts to assist me were so beneficial. You had never enlightened me to your background but I see that you were the ideal individual to help me with my issues. Thank you again..............Heather"


----------



## Beca

Bird-Mom said:
			
		

> This makes me sick to my stomach.
> 
> I posted a week ago looking to rent points and got a PM from the PP.  Offered $9/pt and had already made the reservation. The point cost made my dh a little suspicious because everyone else for the most part is asking $10/pt.  My dh said to tell him no (and dh's friend decided to rent us his points), but before I had a chance to email back, I was away from the computer for a little over 24 hours.  In the time that I did not have computer access, I got several rude emails from PP.  Obviously, he/she wanted the money yesterday.  PP did change how they would take payment, insisting on money orders.  I said no, I wanted to use paypal, so he/she opened up a paypal account and got really irritated with me that paypal had an initial limit of $500/month.  That raised a huge red flag for me...hello, not my fault!  I also felt uncomfortable because it was a hotmail account with a different name (a woman's name) showing in my inbox, and it was signed with a name that I am guessing is male (due to the spelling.  that could easily be a wrong guess on my part).  However, the names didn't match and that bothered me.
> 
> Two people have emailed me asking if he is legit.  I explained what happened to me and that I didn't rent from him.  They both had a different name than he presented to me.
> 
> Dani and Stacey, you are in my thoughts and I truly wish the best for you.



Yikes!!  That's pretty scary!!  I do think I remember Heather saying that the pp was a woman...at least to her.  I wonder if it is a couple?


----------



## momof2inPA

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> Because she slipped up and posted to a thread under one username, and then immediately followed it almost word-for-word with a second post logging in under her original username (or whatever the "identity du jour" was).



I noticed that immediately, but didn't know how to warn anyone.


----------



## VogelFamily

Oh my goodness. In the name of all that is good, I have no idea what allowed me to receive extra helpings of pixie dust but I am thankful beyond words. What a mess we have on here. Please forgive me for any scattered thoughts, I returned back home about 6:00 pm and  had every intention of checking my email and going to bed but here we are many hours and 33 pages later. Plus, they had the nerve to drag me off of my ship this morning. 
I have no idea how much I am allowed to post so please delete anything questionable. 
I did have 5 glorious days at the BCV. We checked in on the 8th and out on the 13th. We moved to PC where we spent Friday evening before boarding the ship. Our reservation at BCV was completely void of any negative events, if you don't count the 11 stressful months prior to getting there. I have had much support and hand-holding along the way from members of the DIS community. It was overwhelmingly positive, even when I was questioning my own judgement. I have no idea what allowed me to come out of this without having lost my money or my mind. 
As many have mentioned, I had a very difficult time establishing any type of communication with the PP. That has been documented here. Always a reason and I always accepted them. Who was I to say that her life was not as she said. Just because I lead a typically boring, charmed life, not everyone does. I believed each line she gave me. In the beginning, I had doubts. I saw the red flags. I did not trust my gut but told myself that I was expecting too much. I never spoke to her without leaving a request for a call back on a generic voicemail. She initially identified herself by her middle name and when MS called her by her legal name, I was taken by surprise. Easily explainable. The aunts name on the confirmation, easily explainable. The new number, explainable. The new address, explainable. No longer email, explainable. Wanting to change the final payment agreement to Western Union transfer. WOAH! I don't think so.
Spoke with her approx 2 weeks before final payment was due and she asked that I send WU. After researching, I decide that I am not comfortable with that. At this point, her name on nothing because confirmation in aunts name. (Spoke with aunt long ago, just after receiving confirmation letter. No explanation or information came with this letter explaining. I had no idea who the aunt was. I researched online and was able to get a phone number. The aunt assured me that PP did have permission to access account and gave me a different phone number. It didn't work but by then the original number was good again.)I sent a certified letter, priority mail to aunt and PP explaining that I would not make final payment via WU but was still hopeful we could work out arrangement.  At this point, I knew I would get no acceptable accommodations onsite and was positive we could find solution. The letters sat at the post office for nearly agonizing 2 weeks. PP called on day 33 wanting to know where her money was, explained would not send WU and that I had sent certified letter but never picked up. We agreed on final payment arrangement with the stipulation that we would have a 3 way call with MS before I sent out. The phone call, although late did happen and  I mailed USPS money order via certified mail with restricted delivery. The post office assured me that she would have to show picture ID to pick up and she would have to sign for. It was picked up and signed for within a few hours. Once again, I crossed my fingers and prayed for pixie dust. I called BCV 4 days prior to arrival and they confirmed my reservation was valid. In the end, I don't know if I was lucky or if she is just a disorganized person on a real string of bad luck. 
When I returned home this evening, there was a message from her on my voice mail from last week. New phone number. I called and recognized the destinctive voice immediately. When I ask to speak with her, she states that "she" is not there, will I leave a message? I say I was returning HER call and that I was a bit confused from other messages that I had received and could she just tell me what was going on.  Also a message from an investigator that I can't get ahold of on the weekend. Just a little unsettling. What is that about? She explains that away and tells me I don't have to get involved and that it is all taken care of. Sounds good. 
I visit the DIS, doesn't sound so good. In the end, she did follow thru with my reservation and I will share that, along with the bumps along the way. 
I sit here, sick to my stomach, with tears down my face. I so feel your anxiety, I truly do. I know firsthand the disruption it causes to your life. It is not about the money. It is about being violated. Wishing all involved a speedy resolution. Now going on 3:00 am. Will check in tomorrow.Thanks...........Heather
By the way, somewhere along the line tonight I remember reading the PP imply that I expected regular or monthly calls. That is not the case, I think in 11 months, I spoke to her on 4 different occasions. Granted some of these situations were more than 1 phone call because she always returned my call but I did not, by any means, make numerous interruptions or requests of her.


----------



## jekjones1558

Hi, Heather,
Not exactly a warm welcome back to the real world for you!
Thank you for taking the time to read and respond.  There are SO many DISers (as you can see from the count on this thread) who have been following this and praying that all went well for you.  Many are also following your "Hold my hand" post.  It is a relief to know that your trip was great after so many stress-filled months beforehand.  We are all hoping that Dani and Stacey (and maybe others?) will have a successful resolution eventually, although some things are not "fixable" at this point.  I hope there is a way that the identity of the investigator can be made public so that others who have posted to this thread, who may also have been involved with this messed up person, can contact the investigator.
I am leaving for WDW in less than 2 hours so I am just thrilled to know that  your vacation was wonderful.  I'll be thinking of all the good folks who have been caught up in this thread while I am gone.  Maybe when I get home there will be some more good news!
P.S.  Be prepared for LOTS of action on the DIS on this thread today!  I know that so many others will also be delighted to hear that you had a super trip.


----------



## momof2inPA

VogelFamily said:
			
		

> I sit here, sick to my stomach, with tears down my face. I so feel your anxiety, I truly do. I know firsthand the disruption it causes to your life. It is not about the money. It is about being violated.



Oh, that's so sad. I'll think of your story any time in the future I decide to rent points.


----------



## DMKEDM

Welcome back, Heather...like all of us, I'm SO happy to hear you had a wonderful trip and that everything worked out magically despite the difficulties and stress of the lead-up to your vacation! 

Now...when you've had some sleep and a chance to adjust to returning to the "real world," I'm sure we all would LOVE a trip report!!!!!

Happy day--

Dani

PS: No updates, folks...but one wasn't expected over the weekend...


----------



## Y-ASK

VogelFamily said:
			
		

> I sit here, sick to my stomach, with tears down my face. I so feel your anxiety, I truly do. I know firsthand the disruption it causes to your life. It is not about the money. It is about being violated. Wishing all involved a speedy resolution. Now going on 3:00 am. Will check in tomorrow.Thanks...........Heather


I think most of us felt sick when we 1st started reading this thread and of course for you at 3 AM after a long trip will also add to your feelings.  I hope you feel better after you get some rest and I hope you had a wonderful trip.  I don't want to speak for any one else but my feelings have gone from sick to sad to mad.  These two transactions and your transaction is no way to conduct business.  It is good to hear that an investigator (whether private or police) had called.  The best way for this PP to handle the situation is to call the people involved and remitt the full refund very soon or else I'm afraid it's going to cost both her and her aunt a lot more than she bargained for.  And yes at this point in time, if she had ripped me off, I'd be calling the Aunt or one of New York's finest.

Y-ASK


----------



## mikron

It makes me mad when I hear things like this, but it happens on all on line selling nets. I understand why the disboard can't let you post the persons name. On ebay if you report fraud they remove the site. Hope you get this straightened out, this hurts all of us.


----------



## InstImpres

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Welcome back, Heather...like all of us, I'm SO happy to hear you had a wonderful trip and that everything worked out magically despite the difficulties and stress of the lead-up to your vacation!
> 
> Now...when you've had some sleep and a chance to adjust to returning to the "real world," I'm sure we all would LOVE a trip report!!!!!
> 
> Happy day--
> 
> Dani
> 
> PS: No updates, folks...but one wasn't expected over the weekend...



Dani -

I have to say you must be an amazing person.  I keep reading your posts and you appear so calm and pleasant.   I give you lots of credit for "making lemonade" out of your situation.

Sounds like a DIS meet is definetly in our when you are in the World and a big round of drinks for you!!!


----------



## twinklebug

Heather... WELCOME Back!!! I'm happy to hear you had a good vacation minus some issues - I'm looking foward to your report (I read 'em all!) Keep the Disney magic from your trip in your heart   


			
				InstImpres said:
			
		

> Dani -
> 
> I have to say you must be an amazing person.  I keep reading your posts and you appear so calm and pleasant.   I give you lots of credit for "making lemonade" out of your situation.
> 
> Sounds like a DIS meet is definetly in our when you are in the World and a big round of drinks for you!!!


If I may, I'm going to second this. Dani - for someone who ran in the risky rental group whe you started (referring to your low post count) I'm appalled that you waited this long to join the DIS... we could have used your calm approach and positive attitude on the DIS a _long_ time ago! But we've got you now - THAT's what matters   

I think we can all use a drink - OK, as I'll probably never make it to a DIS meet I'll send around a big round of cyber-drinks now to everyone (for those of us on the west coast, please wait until afternoon to consume) ... does it matter to anyone if it's grape or cherry kool-aid?


----------



## aclov

Gosh I read this thread last weekend and it's sad to see that it's still going with no resolution and now another victim (Stacy) has emerged.    As a DVC owner who has only done a handful of transactions I have to advise to always be cautious and ask for references, valid phone numbers and  email addresses, have a conversation with the person, rental agreement or whatever it takes.  Someone earlier had a good post on things to follow.  I had a gentleman who I rented to ask for all of the above (except for the agreement) and frankly told me "he just doesn't send money to anyone" I wasn't offended at all  

I really hope this works out for both of you


----------



## CptnJack

I just wanted to say that I have nothing but great dealings, generosity and an overall feeling of pride in being a member of this community.  It is amazing how many people have expressed their good will to the op and the others.

Proud I tell ya!


----------



## Bird-Mom

I forgot to mention in my other post that when I asked for references, PP gave me Heather's name.  I had to push to get a phone number or email, and then PP told me that Heather is on vacation right now and I should call the BCV.  I said no, I would wait until she got home (and therefore wouldn't give PP any money as quickly as he/she wanted).  PP didn't like that...I can see why now.  Good grief!

Heather, I am so glad everything worked out in the end, but what a horrible 11 months with unsatisfactory answers.


----------



## DMKEDM

Instimpres & Twinklebug: You make me blush! But whether I deserve it or not (my college-age son might dispute your characterization of me as calm and rational!--grin), I would LOVE to meet up at WDW and share a mickey bar or a drink or a ride on Space Mountain (or Expedition Everest or Soarin or Dinosaur or Tower of Terror or Rock 'n Roller Coaster or Peter Pan or...well, you get the idea!)...

As for my "newbie status," well, we all have to start somewhere! I only bought into DVC in June, and my son only found Disboards for me during our three-day "look-it-over" period...I think I've "babbled forth" quite a lot considering how new to Disboards I really am!

It's not like I have much wisdom or even experience to share...I still haven't had my first DVC trip! (although it's only a month away now...and despite the "ickies" of this attempt to rent some extra points, I REFUSE to let the magic be tarnished in any way...DS and I are confirmed Disney fans...we've been 12-15 times over the course of his childhood (altho always thru CRO (and once off-site) or work)...it's waaaay too special a place to let one bad experience (even tho it really is bad!) mess w/my love for WDW!

I'm glad to have found Disboards...you-all are great; I'm looking forward to chances over the years to meet as many of you as possible!

Dani


----------



## DVC Daisy

twinklebug said:
			
		

> for those of us on the west coast, please wait until afternoon to consume



twinkelbug is a party pooper!   

Heather - so glad your trip went well!      Dani & Stacy - still hoping for a positive resolution for you both (and any others).


----------



## TiggerTails57

Heather welcome back! 
I have been following this thread and the other thread. Glad you had a wonderful time dispite, the PP and all his/her mess that was flung your way.  Look forward to your trip report!


----------



## JimMIA

twinklebug said:
			
		

> I think we can all use a drink - OK, as I'll probably never make it to a DIS meet I'll send around a big round of cyber-drinks now to everyone (for those of us on the west coast, please wait until afternoon to consume) ... does it matter to anyone if it's grape or cherry kool-aid?


This offer is frighteningly reminiscent of Maistre Gracey's (sp?) annual "Let me buy you a drink" offer.  Every year he makes it... every year he's going at a time different from us... every year I invite him to *just send the cash * -- and I ain't seen one red cent yet!  

MG -- SHOW ME THE MONEY!


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

I don't think I like the sound of this.  The last time a large group of people drank some Kool-Aid together...it didn't turn out so good.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Heather - I'm glad you had a wonderful vacation, and I also would love a trip report.  I love to hear of the fun things others did on their vacations.  

As for the huge meet and greet (and of course special drinks) - don't exclude me.  I'd love to meet as many as I can too.  I'll give it some time and hopefully will catch up with some of you.  I'm not an official member yet, but I want to be and will let you all know when I am.  I hope this means I can still be an honoray member of "the club".


----------



## DMKEDM

Stacey: You are definitely "one of us"!!! Hope you get your own DVC m'ship soon, but in the meantime, you can piggy-back on mine!  Hugs--Dani


----------



## Frankiesmom

I hope a new week brings some form of resolution to you both! Pixie dust to you both.


----------



## dianeschlicht

So glad Heather came back to report!!!  Now let's all hope for a good outcome for Dani and Stacy this week!


----------



## lisaviolet

So sorry to everyone who has had to go through all this....the gamut of emotions you all must have felt.  I'm so sorry.

Best wishes for some kind of "positive" result.

All the best,

Lisa


----------



## CinderellaIam

So glad that Heather has checked in and confirmed that her stay at BCV went well.  Was holding my breath for her.  Now hopefully a new week will bring resolution to Staci and Dani.


----------



## monkeyjuce

FayeW said:
			
		

> I'm very sorry you've had this experience. This is exactly the scenario that kept me from renting points a few months ago. I was checking the R/T board frequently, and it seemed to me that there were an inordinate number of brand new Disboard members with points for rent! Even though everyone on here are complete strangers, there is some (perhaps false) security in dealing with people who are well known and well respected (here on the boards, at least). There are several posters who I would happily pay in full immediately, but not people with low post counts!



I come and read the Dis boards all the time but am not a strong typer and really don't have that much to say....What I want to know is how does the number of my posts make someone reliable? It isn't like this is ebay and posts are actually  sucessfully completed transactions! Someone could take a day or two post till their hearts content and then scam someone if they wished to. And how would someone really go about checking out 'sucessfully completed transaction' anyway? Its like this....your honest or you aren't and if you have your heart set on being the latter there really isn't much to do to protect yourself against being taken. These transactions are all about trust and I have been looking to rent points but it is scary...I honestly don't know what to do after reading this today. I am sceptical and I think rightfully so. Anyone have any advice on *how not to be scammed*? There seems to be a debate over Western Union vs. Papal. 
I know if the ressies are made (with the owners points) what is the cancellation penalty?


----------



## Deb & Bill

monkeyjuce said:
			
		

> ....What I want to know is how does the number of my posts make someone reliable? It isn't like this is ebay and posts are actually  sucessfully completed transactions! Someone could take a day or two post till their hearts content and then scam someone if they wished to. ...I know if the ressies are made (with the owners points) what is the cancellation penalty?



If a non-member wants to check on a member by the number of posts, all they have to do is "Find More Posts by XX" (Drop down box when you click on a person's name).  Look at the content of the post.  Again, if all 50 posts were in the last few days and they were of little or no content, don't rent from them.  But if they have been on the DIS a while, post things with a bit of thought behind them, not just bump, bump, bump, they may have a little more seasoning and less likely to scam.  A scammer doesn't have the time to post thoughtful responses to other threads.  Takes too much time. 

I'm not sure what you mean by cancellation penalty.  When a member cancels a reservation 30 days or less before the start of the stay, those points go into holding.  Meaning you can only make a reservation 60 days or fewer ahead of time.  And they must be used before the start of the next use year (when a member gets the next set of points).  If it is 31 days or more from the start of the reservation, the points just go back into the member's account.  They might still be able to bank them or they may need to use them before the end of the year. 

The non-member may have a cancellation penalty of no refund based on what the agreement with the member states.


----------



## Lynne M

monkeyjuce said:
			
		

> I...What I want to know is how does the number of my posts make someone reliable? It isn't like this is ebay and posts are actually  sucessfully completed transactions!



It's not that a low number of posts makes you untrustworthy, or that a high number makes someone trustworthy.  

 It's just that when you read someone's posts on a wide variety of topics, over a long period of time, you start to get a sense of what sort of person they are. I read these boards daily for a long time before I started posting, and I really do feel like I 'know' many of the regulars. You do get a good feeling for their personalities.  There are some regular posters on the DISboards that I wouldn't hesitate to rent points from, and there are others that I wouldn't be at all comfortable conducting that kind of a financial transaction with.

So it's not the post count. It's the comfort level you gain by getting to know the person you're renting from.


----------



## robinb

monkeyjuce said:
			
		

> I come and read the Dis boards all the time but am not a strong typer and really don't have that much to say....What I want to know is how does the number of my posts make someone reliable?


It doesn't, but by checking the posts that someone has made you can determine if they are a member of the DIS community or someone who is just using the Rent/Trade board for their own benefit.  I would trust a DIS community member over a Rent/Trade newbie any day.



> I know if the ressies are made (with the owners points) what is the cancellation penalty?


The cancellation policy depends on the DVC owner.  Many (if not most!) DVC owners have a "no refunds" policy.  Some will work with the renter to re-rent the points and some will say "it's yours, call me when you have a new renter.".  My cancellation/refund policy is pretty liberal: I allow cancellations and I will do at least a partial refund all the way up to the final week as long as I can re-rent the points myself.


----------



## Beca

Heather, I am SOO glad everything went well for you....and, I anxiously await your trip report (you know how much I love BCV!!!    ).  But seriously, you should get your "referral fingers" ready....I guess you are PP's greatest success story...I think she will be referring a LOT of people to you!!    

Stacey and Dani.....still crossing my fingers for you!!


----------



## wirki

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> I don't think I like the sound of this.  The last time a large group of people drank some Kool-Aid together...it didn't turn out so good.



I was just thinking the same thing.  And then I thought I really like Orange.  

Sorry a little OT.  
I am so sorry that this has not been fixed yet.  I am hoping that a new week will bring better news for Dani and Stacy.  I am glad that your trip went well Heather.  Can't wait to hear more about it.


Debbie


----------



## tedhowe

robinb said:
			
		

> It doesn't, but by checking the posts that someone has made you can determine if they are a member of the DIS community or someone who is just using the Rent/Trade board for their own benefit.  I would trust a DIS community member over a Rent/Trade newbie any day.



I have been thinking about the 50 posts/6 month guidelines a lot since it was first posted in this thread. I think it is important to be sure you have BOTH elements to get a more comfortable feel.

Someone who is looking to get away with some scam transactions could very well join the boards for a couple of weeks and post a bunch of messages - even relevant ones - to several different forums at DISBoards and easily get to a 50 post count. 

But a scammer is less likely to put in the time and effort to have a presence on the board for 6 months with postings at semi-regular intervals. It's too much effort.


----------



## greenban

mamatojon said:
			
		

> I don't know, it makes sense to me.  If you are a big time poster and like to post things that are somewhat "controversial" or get into heated arguments with other posters, you are likely to offend either exisiting or potential customers.  Having a separate rental screen name fixes that, no one links the two as one.  Keep in mind I am completely "out of the loop" here, so I could be way off base, LOL.
> 
> Back on topic, sorry!



I pretty squarely fit into the controversial category.  In fact I think Doc has designated a 'special category' for me and my self-perceived sense of humor.  However, I have one and only one DISboard id (as per the rules) and it has never interfered with my rental activities.

The problem is that PP may not have violated any DISboard rules that would allow her banning, even though most of us would agree her actions are far 'worse' than posting, "...sorry your dates are all sold out..."  on the R/T board.

I'm hoping an exception has been made and PP is banned, because her rental activities seem to have morphed into a pyramid scheme.

Let me close with again wishing the best of luck to PP's growing number of victims, and hoping this all finally ends as well it can!

-Tony


----------



## greenban

Lewisc said:
			
		

> A fradulent person could create dozen of DIS identities and satisfy any minimum post requirements.  The date a DIS joined and their total post counts are visible.  That's one factor that a person should consider in deciding who to do business with. Let the owner/renter decide how much value to put in this information.
> 
> Internet sites such as mousesavers suggest people consider renting points and suggest DIS as a good place to post.  A six month rule might cut out some good people.
> 
> I guess DIS could considering charging a nominal annual fee for members that want to post in the rental board.  That would help pay for bandwidth.  It would reduce the number of multiple identities and having to provide a valid credit card might deter some scammers.  The owner is getting money and the renter is getting a good deal on a vacation.  Maybe DIS should get something, even if it's just $10 for the annual right to post in the rental forum.



GREAT IDEA!

-Tony


----------



## JimMIA

greenban said:
			
		

> The problem is that PP may not have violated any DISboard rules that would allow her banning, even though most of us would agree her actions are far 'worse' than posting, "...sorry your dates are all sold out..."  on the R/T board.


I'm sure there is no big controversy over what any of us think of this person's behavior, and I think there are two important things to keep in mind regarding her:

1 - Doc's post saying she had not violated any DIS policies was very early in the process, was absolutely correct at that time, and also came after she had assured Doc that she would contact Dani and straighten things out.  Doc said no action was warranted at that time, and he was absolutely right.

2 - Thing have changed now.  I do not know whether she has been banned, but I don't think she is still posting rental offerings on the DIS.  If anyone sees such postings, that would be good info to share.


----------



## greenban

JimMIA said:
			
		

> I'm sure there is no big controversy over what any of us think of this person's behavior, and I think there are two important things to keep in mind regarding her:
> 
> 1 - Doc's post saying she had not violated any DIS policies was very early in the process, was absolutely correct at that time, and also came after she had assured Doc that she would contact Dani and straighten things out.  Doc said no action was warranted at that time, and he was absolutely right.
> 
> 2 - Thing have changed now.  I do not know whether she has been banned, but I don't think she is still posting rental offerings on the DIS.  If anyone sees such postings, that would be good info to share.



Jim:

I am in no way questioning DOC's or anyone else's behavior.

Doc was incredable in his actions and responsiveness, especially when you consider he was at WDW!!!

Also, I meant to point out that no matter how angry we (the DIS community) felt at PP's actions, she had done nothing specifically bannable.

The DISboards have no resposnibility here, they do what they do wonderfully, run the best Disney site!

But, I do think we agree that morally, what this PP did is 'worse' than posting "...sorry, just checked with MS, your dates are not available...." which is a bannable offense.  And yes, I believe the DIS would issue many warnings before it ever came to a banning.

So let me be clear, the DIS and DOC (and Jim too) are all wonderful, I wish Pixie Dust and a speedy and happy resolution to our victims, and I hope PP's life improves as well.

Peace!

-Tony


----------



## robinb

JimMIA said:
			
		

> 2 - Thing have changed now.  I do not know whether she has been banned, but I don't think she is still posting rental offerings on the DIS.  If anyone sees such postings, that would be good info to share.


For good or bad, I think this thread has poisoned the well for her.  More than one poster has said that they have been contacted by her in an attempt to rent points but they declined because of this thread.  The downside is that the PP told Dani that she could only refund her money once she re-rented the points.


----------



## JimMIA

greenban said:
			
		

> Jim:
> 
> I am in no way questioning DOC's or anyone else's behavior.


Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear.  *I was referring to the person many refer to as PP's* behavior.  I try to stay away from using any kind of personal identifier for her because I've typed her real name more than once and had to change it. Once I didn't notice until after I'd already posted!  

I know you weren't questioning Doc or the DIS.

As far as her posting activity meeting DIS posting guidelines, I think it's always been against DIS guidelines to use the DIS for criminal activity.  Criminality was not clear at the time of Doc's first posting, but it's quite clear now.  

I don't know what they've done to her (nor do I expect them to announce it), but I do not believe she is renting on the DIS any longer.


----------



## JimMIA

robinb said:
			
		

> For good or bad, I think this thread has poisoned the well for her.  More than one poster has said that they have been contacted by her in an attempt to rent points but they declined because of this thread.


That can only be GOOD.  Congratulations to those who outsmarted her.  


> The downside is that the PP told Dani that she could only refund her money once she re-rented the points.


Right...which is a totally bogus idea if you stop and think about it.  She provided absolutely NOTHING to Dani -- she wasn't out any points, and had no need to re-rent _anything_.  She just needed to refund Dani's money which she had taken for NOTHING. 

And second, she did re-rent the points -- to Stacey!


----------



## kd5k

I would love nothing more than to see a happy ending to this saga! There are too many victims here, and how many that we are not aware of??? This scares me!!

I have mixed emotions about the 6 month membership and low post count... Being new myself ( I am a good, honest person!!    ) and having just joined and not been on any of the trips yet, I don't feel I have allot to offer as far as advice goes on most of these posts. I can post a "hi", "Hope ya have fun", and "good lucks", but what am I saying that is worth-while? I have had questions that I have posted and a few people that I am PM'd for certain things.

I think the biggest thing, that has been said here several times, is to pay attention to your "GUT FEELINGS!!" Pay attention to those red flags!! Make sure you have good communication! I think it would be easy to get caught up in the excitement of getting those rental points to be able to take your dream vacation, but STOP and pay attention!! 

Hope to see some good news in this coming week! I am sure if Dani and Stacy are taking steps to resolve this, that they might not be able to talk of it, due to not divulging too much information.

Thinking of you ladies and hope you do get this resolved soon!

hugs, Deb


----------



## mamatojon

greenban said:
			
		

> I pretty squarely fit into the controversial category.  In fact I think Doc has designated a 'special category' for me and my self-perceived sense of humor.  However, I have one and only one DISboard id (as per the rules) and it has never interfered with my rental activities.
> 
> The problem is that PP may not have violated any DISboard rules that would allow her banning, even though most of us would agree her actions are far 'worse' than posting, "...sorry your dates are all sold out..."  on the R/T board.
> 
> I'm hoping an exception has been made and PP is banned, because her rental activities seem to have morphed into a pyramid scheme.
> 
> Let me close with again wishing the best of luck to PP's growing number of victims, and hoping this all finally ends as well it can!
> 
> -Tony



Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that one *had* to have multiple IDs if they were going to post controversially elsewhere, just that I could understand the desire to keep your business interests and your personal convictions separate.  Many stores, companies, organizations don't want to alienate people with dissimilar views and as such stay pretty politically correct, so I could see where a high volume renter would as well, if they view their renting as a business.  

OT, but FWIW, I usually *get* your sense of humor Tony, and my son *loves* the frog pic.  He is patiently waiting his turn so he can go on gametap so this is from him  - he loves the smilies, LOL.


----------



## twinklebug

JimMIA said:
			
		

> As far as her posting activity meeting DIS posting guidelines, I think it's always been against DIS guidelines to use the DIS for criminal activity.



I'm sorry... just interjecting a smile and a rambling here...   

I've always assumed it was against US law to use the Web for criminal activity, as such, it is implied the DIS would never allow it. 

I recall a nasty situation involving a major broadcasting company I moderated for in which I had to call and work with the authorities on several persons selling illegal materials and making personal threats to Olympic Athletes. As the network was not responsible for the postings all we had to provide to the law were the IPs, posting times and what they posted. Rest assured the guilty parties were taken care of.

I believe the DIS moderators do a fantastic job of keeping these forums clean and family friendly.   I KNOW what sort of junk can and does get posted to open forums and IF you ever come across it here, it's gone within seconds.    I have no issues with my 13yo DD using this site.


----------



## DMKEDM

For what it's worth: I am EXTREMELY (and yes, I mean to shout that!) grateful...deeply, profoundly grateful!!!!...that no one else sent the PP money that she could then use to send back to me! I can't tell you how horrible I'd have felt if someone else got scammed and I got repaid on their money!!! 

So, I'm unqualifiedly happy to know that at least one person (and possibly more) were spared this experience because of the existence of this thread ... it helps take some of the sting out of being scammed myself...

And no, no updates today...

Happy day, everyone...

Dani


----------



## robinb

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Right...which is a totally bogus idea if you stop and think about it.  She provided absolutely NOTHING to Dani -- she wasn't out any points, and had no need to re-rent _anything_.  She just needed to refund Dani's money which she had taken for NOTHING.


Yes, but if she spent the money she doesn't have it to return.


> And second, she did re-rent the points -- to Stacey!


I'm not so sure about that.  Stacey put her request for points out on 10/12.  She was contacted by the PP and she sent her money on Sunday 10/15.  Dani received a text message on Monday night 10/16 that said that the PP needed to re-rent the points before she could send back the money.  I do not think the two transactions are for the same points ... unless they are all vapor-points.


----------



## JimMIA

robinb said:
			
		

> Yes, but if she spent the money she doesn't have it to return.
> 
> I'm not so sure about that.  Stacey put her request for points out on 10/12.  She was contacted by the PP and she sent her money on Sunday 10/15.  Dani received a text message on Monday night 10/16 that said that the PP needed to re-rent the points before she could send back the money.  I do not think the two transactions are for the same points ... unless they are all vapor-points.


 I'm not going to get into a discussion on the chronology, for several reasons.  

But I will say that PP's statement that she *"had"* to re-rent Dani's points is obviously bogus on its face.  She was implying she had to re-rent the points because Dani wasn't taking the points, and that of course is just not true. 

I'm sure you don't mean to say this, but it almost sounds like you think if she'd only been able to put together _one more transaction _ (either legitimate or fraudulent), she would have repaid Dani.  I don't think that's the case.


----------



## JimMIA

One fly in the ointment for those proposing some sort of time/post count threshhold for posting on the R/T board: That only covers half of the problem on its best day.  

There are two ways to rent and posting an ad is only one of them.  The other way is to just lurk and PM/email people who post requests for reservations.  

Unless you're willing to withhold PMing and emailing through the DIS until a new member meets those threshholds, you'd only be addressing part of the problem.

For the same reason, requiring payment of a fee would have the same defect unless you wanted to completely restrict the R/T board to paying members only...which doesn't seem like a great marketing strategy either.

I don't think there are any shortcuts.  I think the best advice is still _caveat emptor_ -- the prospective renters (and owners renting points) need to be cautious, and they need to protect themselves.


----------



## robinb

JimMIA said:
			
		

> I'm sure you don't mean to say this, but it almost sounds like you think if she'd only been able to put together _one more transaction _ (either legitimate or fraudulent), she would have repaid Dani.  I don't think that's the case.


That's exactly what I mean to say.  I think it looks pretty bad for the PP, but I am not 100% sure that she is a criminal.  We _know_ that she is flakey and we _know _that she doesn't follow up with her renters and we _know _that  she has very poor communication skills.  That comes from the Vogels' rental experience.  By her own admission, she has had a rocky few months both emotionally and financially.  My guess is the money was spent as soon as it was picked up from Western Union and the PP had no money to return to Dani.  

I view her additional rental attempts as a way to make good.  If she had been able to follow though one or more of the transactions she attempted I think there is a chance that she would have paid Dani and Stacey back.  Maybe not a really big chance, but a chance nonetheless.  That chance dwindles with every post about how the PP is a criminial and with every renter who turns her down.  It would be quite easy for the PP to feel victimized herself.  Eventually even the most level headed person will say "The heck with them!" A less level headed person would say "Make me give the money back!".  

Don't get me wrong!  If I were Dani or Stacey I would be working with as many people possible to track the PP down and make her give the money back.  I would work with the police, with Western Union, with the investigator and I would work with my fellow victims.

Maybe the PP is a criminal.  Maybe she's just messed up.  None of really knows for sure except the PP herself.


----------



## JimMIA

I hope you're right Robin, but I have not seen any indication of her intent to do anything positive.  I'd love to be proven wrong, and I'd like to see her start taking some steps to put her life back on track.  But I have not seen any signs of that yet.


----------



## elijahpep

robinb said:
			
		

> I view her additional rental attempts as a way to make good.



I suppose I am a more cynical person than you. I believe she would have just taken someone elses money and left them wondering just as she has Dani and Stacey.

I don't post too often and have been following this thread from the beginning. I feel very sorry for the individuals (sounds like it might be many) involved in this web of deceit created by the PP. My prayers go out to them and hopefully it will be resolved in the near future.

~DH


----------



## CarolMN

Just a bit of history -

Early on (when the DIS and the DVC Board was fairly new), there was a proposal / plan to charge for the Rent/Trade Board.  There was such an "uproar" from so many of the Board regulars that the owner backed off.  Thus there is no fee of any kind to use the R/T Forum.


----------



## nicky mouse

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> The email address? For the poster? No...I used PM to contact her, and then what turned out to be a cell phone number thereafter. I have a name, her cell phone number (which shows her name on my caller ID and it's the same name she gave me), the city where she picked up the money I wired to her, her screen name here on Disboards, and that's it...



It's bummer that this happened to you.  But I would contact the athorities in the city where she picked up the money.  Western Union must have cameras and she probably had to sign for the money.  You didn't have a contract, so there is probably nothing they can do, but it's worth a try.


----------



## manning

I wonder if the Vogels got their vacation because they made payment by a USPS money order. The PP may have went thru with the rental to avoid mail fraud.

Those who choose (and should) to file police reports may help the police in an investigation. PP had to show ID and sign for the money order. Might I suggest you do it around the same time with one detective, if possible, to make the PP stand out.

There appears to be a possible federal crime here.

WIRE FRAUD - 18 USC 1343, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to use interstate wire communications facilities in carrying out a scheme to defraud.

A person can be found guilty of that offense only if all of the following facts are proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

First: That the person knowingly and willfully devised a scheme to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false pretenses, representations or promises; and

Second: That the person knowingly transmitted or caused to be transmitted by wire in interstate commerce some sound for the purpose of executing the scheme to defraud.

It is not necessary that the Government prove all of the details concerning the precise nature and purpose of the scheme; or that the material transmitted by wire was itself false or fraudulent; or that the alleged scheme actually succeeded in defrauding anyone; or that the use of interstate wire communications facilities was intended as the specific or exclusive means of accomplishing the alleged fraud.

What must be proved is that the person knowingly and willfully devised or intended to devise a scheme to defraud; and that the use of the interstate wire communications facilities was closely related to the scheme because the person either wired something or caused it to be wired in interstate commerce in an attempt to execute or carry out the scheme.

To "cause" interstate wire facilities to be used is to do an act with knowledge that the use of the wires will follow in the ordinary course of business or where such use can reasonably be foreseen.

Each separate use of the interstate wire facilities in furtherance of a scheme to defraud constitutes a separate offense. 




Just a thought. Good luck.


----------



## OceanAnnie

robinb said:
			
		

> That's exactly what I mean to say.  I think it looks pretty bad for the PP, but I am not 100% sure that she is a criminal.  We _know_ that she is flakey and we _know _that she doesn't follow up with her renters and we _know _that  she has very poor communication skills.  That comes from the Vogels' rental experience.  By her own admission, she has had a rocky few months both emotionally and financially.  My guess is the money was spent as soon as it was picked up from Western Union and the PP had no money to return to Dani.
> 
> I view her additional rental attempts as a way to make good.  If she had been able to follow though one or more of the transactions she attempted I think there is a chance that she would have paid Dani and Stacey back.  Maybe not a really big chance, but a chance nonetheless.  That chance dwindles with every post about how the PP is a criminial and with every renter who turns her down.  It would be quite easy for the PP to feel victimized herself.  Eventually even the most level headed person will say "The heck with them!" A less level headed person would say "Make me give the money back!".
> 
> Don't get me wrong!  If I were Dani or Stacey I would be working with as many people possible to track the PP down and make her give the money back.  I would work with the police, with Western Union, with the investigator and I would work with my fellow victims.
> 
> Maybe the PP is a criminal.  Maybe she's just messed up.  None of really knows for sure except the PP herself.



I don't know.  

IMO, the PP's actions ARE criminal. Yes, she did mess up. Not "just messed up" to me. It wasn't a little "oops". It was a deliberate act. The way it was set up indicates as much to me.  What ever actions take place after the fact does not change the act of taking someone's money under false pretenses is a criminal act. Yes, she could (should) turn this around. Whatever anyone has to say about it IMO won't have an impact on what the PP's next step will be. She initiated the criminal act without any commentary. She's continuing to initiaite renting with no consequence (other than being turned down by those informed). Who knows why she's trying to continue to rent? IMO, past actions indicate it's to line her pockets. 

If the PP is feeling victimized then she's lost all touch with reality, not just "less level headed". I don't blame people for not renting from her. She certainly hasn't proven herself trustworthy. There has been no communication with the people she has "let down" (to put it lightly). Nothing for their money. I certainly wouldn't line up to give her mine!

Sad that Dani & Staci haven't gotten their money back. The more time that passes makes it less likely it will occur.


----------



## JimMIA

manning said:
			
		

> There appears to be a possible federal crime here.


18 USC 1343 is one of a number of federal and state statutes which could be applied here.  Obviously, you explore all options in situations like these.

The best option remains for the person who took the money to refund the money.


----------



## sweet48

Has anyone ever thought of maybe this board verifying  or creating a membership of good quality renters or maybe even rentees. You could give them a color changing star like on EBAY. maybe even a feedback section.  Could be a way to make some extra revenue!  But more importantly making alot of people more comfortable. Just my opinion, take it for what you paid for it

This board is one of the best though

John


----------



## JimMIA

sweet48 said:
			
		

> Has anyone ever thought of maybe this board verifying  or creating a membership of good quality renters or maybe even rentees. You could give them a color changing star like on EBAY. maybe even a feedback section.  Could be a way to make some extra revenue!  But more importantly making alot of people more comfortable. Just my opinion, take it for what you paid for it
> 
> This board is one of the best though
> 
> John


 Yes, there have been numerous suggestions along those lines, as well as discussions of the suggestions throughout this thread...as recently as the previous page.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Wow, some very good information on what can, should and may be done in this case.  I hope all is being taken care of with expediance and discression so Dani and Stacey get some results.  Jim, you are so right that the BEST way is for the PP to just come foward with the money ASAP.  I' not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, however.


----------



## manning

JimMIA said:
			
		

> 18 USC 1343 is one of a number of federal and state statutes which could be applied here.  Obviously, you explore all options in situations like these.
> 
> The best option remains for the person who took the money to refund the money.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Agreed, but I wouldn't explore too much longer. In a way you are in a form of negotiation with that person and some kind of incentive will have to be given for her to perform.


----------



## OceanAnnie

manning said:
			
		

> Agreed, but I wouldn't explore too much longer. In a way you are in a form of negotiation with that person and some kind of incentive will have to be given for her to perform.



I think the BEST incentive to offer the PP is if she returns the money, the incidences will not be turned over to the police. Win-Win.


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

How about the People's Court? Or even better Judge Judy! That way she could get a life lesson (browbeating) while having a judgement entered against her.


----------



## dianeschlicht

OceanAnnie said:
			
		

> I think the BEST incentive to offer the PP is if she returns the money, the incidences will not be turned over to the police. Win-Win.


----------



## bbump

So sorry this has happened to you!
Wishing pixie dust and good vibes your way.
Even though this icky thing happened to you, I believe that later down the line you will be blessed with something to offset the loss.

As for the PP, it comes down to Karma.
There will be a time when the action is deeply regreted & I am sure there will be alot of guilt about this later.


----------



## Glorydaz

well, I like many others here, are reading daily to find out the outcome. and I absolutely agree that the PP just needs to make good on the funds taken.

to the PP:    

     all that any of us want here is for Dani and Stacey to receive their funds back in as timely a fashion as you can adhere to. I'm thinking that you're following this thread daily as are we. we all can understand falling on hard times. all we implore is that you contact the above named people and work out a plan to make restitution. whatever steps they themselves are taking, you can be sure that this matter will not just go away. so in the best interest of yourself and your family, just contact them and try to work something out. the longer this drags on, the harder it will be for you to come forward.

to Dani and Stacey:

     your grace under these extreme circumstances is admired by many, me included. if there is anything I could do to make this better, I would. because like everyone else here, my trips to WDW are a little bit of heaven, a "happy place" so to speak. and I would be deeply crushed if that dream was broken by anyone in any fashion....

wishing the best to all involved. oh yes, and I just want to add, I am EXTREMELY proud to be a member of this community. alot of fine , upstanding folks here.

Michelle


----------



## FinallyBoughtDVC

doubletrouble_vb said:
			
		

> How about the People's Court? Or even better Judge Judy! That way she could get a life lesson (browbeating) while having a judgement entered against her.



Great idea! If I understand these shows correctly, the litigants are paid for their appearance and any awards are deducted and given to the plaintiff if they win. So, it could be a win-win all around...I'm not 100% sure about it - I just remember reading a blurb at the end of the People's Court one day (the credits at the end).

I also have been checking daily hoping for a happy resolution...still hoping.


----------



## Mich Mouse

sweet48 said:
			
		

> Has anyone ever thought of maybe this board verifying  or creating a membership of good quality renters or maybe even rentees. You could give them a color changing star like on EBAY. maybe even a feedback section.  Could be a way to make some extra revenue!  But more importantly making alot of people more comfortable. Just my opinion, take it for what you paid for it
> 
> This board is one of the best though
> 
> John




This is a great idea!  I am sure this thread has made many people decide never to rent points on the DIS.  It is unfortunate, but it really does only take a few rotten apples .....If there was a rating system, it may restore the faith in renting here on the DIS.   I know I am extremely leery of the whole process now.


----------



## Sammie

doubletrouble_vb said:
			
		

> How about the People's Court? Or even better Judge Judy! That way she could get a life lesson (browbeating) while having a judgement entered against her.




Both parties have to show up, don't see that happening.


----------



## BurkeTribe

monkeyjuce said:
			
		

> These transactions are all about trust and I have been looking to rent points but it is scary...I honestly don't know what to do after reading this today. I am sceptical and I think rightfully so. Anyone have any advice on *how not to be scammed*? There seems to be a debate over Western Union vs. Papal.
> I know if the ressies are made (with the owners points) what is the cancellation penalty?



Never use Western Union to send money to someone you do not personally know. Ever.

Never rent from someone you don't know who "has to have all the money before making the reservation" when you are asking for a reservation well in advance (4-11months or so). Personally I have never even paid a deposit to a pointowner,  I always have paid-in-full upon receipt of the original DVC reservation confirmation letter. Nothing before that, however, because the pointowner is generally risking nothing but a little time if a rentee flakes out so far in advance. 

Cancellation/refund-or-not agreement should be spelled out. In my deals  we have just agreed on these points by email for my small rental amounts, but for high$ rentals I would say printed and signed/notarized is best.

I think the best methods to pay for rented points to protect buyer and seller are :
Certified cashier's check from a phone-able major US bank with multiple locations...
Personal check from phone-able major US bank with multiple locations...
Possibly US Postal Money order (I have not researched how well the Post Office checks IDs when someone cashes these, however, and there is a dollar limit on each one)....

When I have rented some points, I paid by personal check once and business check once. My business is easily verifiable online as real, and the pointowner had no real risk, since if the check didn't clear he could cancel the reservation. After the DVC confirmation is in hand and after the payment clears, there is very little risk left (usually none for the seller), and a great stay is probably going to happen   

Both times I have rented have been from folks with less than 100 posts at the time (the last had less than 10), so # of posts isn't a deal-killer, it's just a small part of the trust picture. The person with less than 10 posts had been a DIS member for almost 3 years, and none of the threads they posted in (all DVC) had people asking them "hey, what happened to my reservation," and the name/address/phone info they sent to me was verifiable both by searching online and through other methods (UPS database, etc.), and payment was to be made only to that person at that address. Plus it didn't hurt that I was renting less than $600 worth of points both times (gotta love the low weekday pointcost at OKW   ).  So # of posts is not as important as the information the pointowner gives you after first contact. Of course, if someone has as many posts over as long a period as someone like robinb, it's a pretty good bet that they are probably safe to rent from     

Here is a recent thread with more tips (but they and the above are just tips--your mileage may vary).
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1255828



As for this thread... being the natural born cynic that I am, I personally was hearing alarm bells from the getgo from the details in the original post. But maybe I'm just jaded. Fingers crossed for those who've been seemingly  defrauded.


----------



## kimberh

BurkeTribe said:
			
		

> Never use Western Union to send money to someone you do not personally know. Ever.
> 
> Never rent from someone you don't know who "has to have all the money before making the reservation" when you are asking for a reservation well in advance (4-11months or so). Personally I have never even paid a deposit to a pointowner,  I always have paid-in-full upon receipt of the original DVC reservation confirmation letter. Nothing before that, however, because the pointowner is generally risking nothing but a little time if a rentee flakes out so far in advance.
> 
> Cancellation/refund-or-not agreement should be spelled out. In my deals  we have just agreed on these points by email for my small rental amounts, but for high$ rentals I would say printed and signed/notarized is best.
> 
> I think the best methods to pay for rented points to protect buyer and seller are :
> Certified cashier's check from a phone-able major US bank with multiple locations...
> Personal check from phone-able major US bank with multiple locations...
> Possibly US Postal Money order (I have not researched how well the Post Office checks IDs when someone cashes these, however, and there is a dollar limit on each one)....
> 
> When I have rented some points, I paid by personal check once and business check once. My business is easily verifiable online as real, and the pointowner had no real risk, since if the check didn't clear he could cancel the reservation. After the DVC confirmation is in hand and after the payment clears, there is very little risk left (usually none for the seller), and a great stay is probably going to happen
> 
> Both times I have rented have been from folks with less than 100 posts at the time (the last had less than 10), so # of posts isn't a deal-killer, it's just a small part of the trust picture. The person with less than 10 posts had been a DIS member for almost 3 years, and none of the threads they posted in (all DVC) had people asking them "hey, what happened to my reservation," and the name/address/phone info they sent to me was verifiable both by searching online and through other methods (UPS database, etc.), and payment was to be made only to that person at that address. Plus it didn't hurt that I was renting less than $600 worth of points both times (gotta love the low weekday pointcost at OKW   ).  So # of posts is not as important as the information the pointowner gives you after first contact. Of course, if someone has as many posts over as long a period as someone like robinb, it's a pretty good bet that they are probably safe to rent from
> 
> Here is a recent thread with more tips (but they and the above are just tips--your mileage may vary).
> http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1255828
> 
> 
> 
> As for this thread... being the natural born cynic that I am, I personally was hearing alarm bells from the getgo from the details in the original post. But maybe I'm just jaded. Fingers crossed for those who've been seemingly  defrauded.



One question I have for you.... When you rent, How much time does your rentee give you to pay? They have paid for your vacation until you do. Whether they have anything to loose or not they have money on the line, out of pocket.


----------



## robinb

kimberh said:
			
		

> One question I have for you.... When you rent, How much time does your rentee give you to pay? They have paid for your vacation until you do. Whether they have anything to loose or not they have money on the line, out of pocket.



Every DVC Owner/Renter is different.  I can only speak for myself.  I usually set a date about 5 weeks after I make the reservation for my first payment.  That gives me enough time to receive the written confirmation from DVC and send it to my renter.  The only time I would be "out money" in a rental deal would be if the renter cancels and I cannot re-rent the points before they expire.  That's why I require full payment by 3 months in advance of the reservation date.


----------



## JimMIA

robinb said:
			
		

> The only time I would be "out money" in a rental deal would be if the renter cancels and I cannot re-rent the points before they expire.


That might be the only time you'd be "out money," but it's not the only time you could have difficulty.  If banking deadlines pass between booking and cancellation, that will greatly limit your flexibility with the points.  If you have borrowed points for the ressie (first of all, SHAME ON YOU!), that's going to be a problem.  If you are coming up on a particularly busy time for DVC, you may not be able to find any availability at resorts.  There can be a host of other issues.

One of the most sound strategies I've ever read on renting came from Dean (I think) and it is to only rent early in your use year.  If you do that, you have much more flexibility in the event of a cancellation.  It's pretty difficult to feel sorry for some of the owners when you read posts that they've borrowed points for a ressie a month before the end of their UY, and the renter has canceled on them two weeks out without paying a penny.  


> That's why I require full payment by 3 months in advance of the reservation date.


This is eminently sensible advice, and I can't believe more owners don't insist on this.  For some reason, many DVC owners seem to fiercely resist handling these business transactions like they are business transactions.  

If you book a ski vacation at Vail, or a Caribbean cruise, or a lot of other destination-type trips...you're going to pay in full WAY in advance, and probably on a completely non-cancelable basis.  Those situations are the reason trip insurance was created.  DVC is no different, and more owners should approach things like Robin does.

In our concern for Dani and Stacey, let's not forget that it is the OWNERS who usually have more problems with rentals than the people renting the ressies.


----------



## BurkeTribe

kimberh said:
			
		

> One question I have for you.... When you rent, How much time does your rentee give you to pay? They have paid for your vacation until you do. Whether they have anything to loose or not they have money on the line, out of pocket.



 Have always paid-in-full when I receive the official DVC reservation confirmation letter. The first time it was pretty much necessary for the situation (reservation made late August for mid-October) to protect the pointowner/renter*. The second time it wasn't necessary  (5 months before trip), but I suggested it to let the pointowner/renter know I was serious, and that I trusted him/her, and that he/she would have no worries with the deal. However, both deals were for less than $1000. On more than that, I would  request a notarized contract, and I would probably pay 1/3 or 1/2 on receipt of DVC conf., and the rest at 3 months before the trip reservation date, to be totally paid up by then as robinb states above. If that wasn't good enough for the pointowner/renter and it was a large amount, I would perhaps suggest an escrow deal for 50% of the amount.




*I use "renter" to mean "person who owns the points" and "rentee" to mean "person who wants to use someone else's points"... but perhaps "rentor" would be clearer for the former, since the dictionary confusingly defines "renter" as referencing both sides of a rental deal


----------



## Lexxiefern

Wow, 38 pages and no resolution? Dani and Stacey I hope it works out for you!!


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

BurkeTribe said:
			
		

> On more than that, I would  request a notarized contract, and I would probably pay 1/3 or 1/2 on receipt of DVC conf., and the rest at 3 months before the trip reservation date, to be totally paid up by then as robinb states above. If that wasn't good enough for the pointowner/renter and it was a large amount, I would perhaps suggest an escrow deal for 50% of the amount.



This is a good idea!!! Not so much how the money is exchanged but if I took my DVC material to a notary so they could verify that they had seen the signed DVC contract on the rental contract that would at least put a renters mind at ease. Conversely if the renter gets the contract notarized on their end before mailing it back to verify the home address given to the owner that could help ease fears on the otherside. This would be good for rentals of 40 to sixty days notice.


----------



## Deemarch

Unless you personally know someone, how can I let my friends & family take a risk?  This makes me too nervous to consider.


----------



## JimMIA

diznyfanatic started a "DVC Points Rental Primer" thread, and here's a link:  http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1255828

A lot of the suggestions that have been mentioned here would be welcome additions to that thread, and I'd suggest that anyone who has ideas go there and add to the body of knowledge.

This comment by Denise is in line with one of the ideas I posted to that thread -- If you're not completely comfortable, just walk away.  It's the best protection you could possibly have.


----------



## Deb & Bill

BurkeTribe said:
			
		

> ...Cancellation/refund-or-not agreement should be spelled out. In my deals  we have just agreed on these points by email for my small rental amounts, but for high$ rentals I would say printed and signed/notarized is best.
> 
> I think the best methods to pay for rented points to protect buyer and seller are :
> Certified cashier's check from a phone-able major US bank with multiple locations...
> Personal check from phone-able major US bank with multiple locations...
> Possibly US Postal Money order (I have not researched how well the Post Office checks IDs when someone cashes these, however, and there is a dollar limit on each one)....
> 
> When I have rented some points, I paid by personal check once and business check once. My business is easily verifiable online as real, and the pointowner had no real risk, since if the check didn't clear he could cancel the reservation. After the DVC confirmation is in hand and after the payment clears, there is very little risk left (usually none for the seller), and a great stay is probably going to happen
> 
> ...




But until you own the points, you don't get to set the rental requirements.  As a non-owner, you can ask the owner to do something, but they can turn you down if they don't like your method of payment, your terms of payment, the color of your check.


----------



## Frankiesmom

I am sooo sad that there has been no resolution to this!


----------



## Disney Hot Mama

kimberh said:
			
		

> One question I have for you.... When you rent, How much time does your rentee give you to pay? They have paid for your vacation until you do. Whether they have anything to loose or not they have money on the line, out of pocket.




I think this is up to both parties and what agreement they come to.  For us as renters and my 'tenants's ' we required 50% upfront and then the remaining 50% 60 days out.  I used a written contract, something I found on these boards for the protection of everyone......  Again every rental is different.  Some people don't use a contract - other do.  Some ask for 100% up front others ask for a deposit to hold the reservation.....
You gut feeling will also help.

I am still hoping for a resolution to the original poster but it is not looking to good.  Taking the next legal steps might be necessary as others have posted.  Do what is best for you and your family.  If to much time goes on it will only worsen your case in my opinion....


----------



## FarmerJohn

I hate the fact that member services doesn't allow non members to call anymore
It was nice when a renter could call & check on their reservation with the confirmation #


----------



## donaldbuzz&minnie

Although I understand the concern that many people have expressed that there might be a better way to ensure that a scammer can't hurt us, I'm more concerned that one rotten apple is having the effect of scaring us so badly.  We don't have a trend here, unless you want to call it a trend that 1000's of good transactions have occurred without incident.

If a real trend develops the only real solution may be to call a halt to the rent/trade board entirely.  But I think that the strongest defense we have at this point is to do what has been done - shine a big, bright, collective light on the occasional scammer.  If we don't lose confidence in each other we will stay strong enough to do that.  The worst thing that could happen is if we all begin to drift away from the boards in fear.


----------



## dumbo71

FarmerJohn said:
			
		

> I hate the fact that member services doesn't allow non members to call anymore
> It was nice when a renter could call & check on their reservation with the confirmation #




If you want to have access to an account all you have to do is buy a contract.  I, for one, do not want renters having access to MY account.  We are talking about privacy laws here.  A written confirmation copy from DVC should suffice for a renter.  

If a renter is unwilling to accept this there is always CRO.  Reduced price rentals come with some risk and a loss of control over the reservation.


----------



## robinb

FarmerJohn said:
			
		

> I hate the fact that member services doesn't allow non members to call anymore
> It was nice when a renter could call & check on their reservation with the confirmation #


FWIW, it was a false sense of security since the renter could still cancel your reservation at any time.  You could always request a 3-way call with the member and member services but the same caveat applies.


----------



## dumbo71

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> But until you own the points, you don't get to set the rental requirements.  As a non-owner, you can ask the owner to do something, but they can turn you down if they don't like your method of payment, your terms of payment, the color of your check.




Great post.  As a member that rented over 20 times I agree 100%.  Renters simply do not have the same rights and privledges that an OWNER/MEMBER has, nor should they.


----------



## JimMIA

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> If you want to have access to an account all you have to do is buy a contract.  I, for one, do not want renters having access to MY account.  We are talking about privacy laws here.  A written confirmation copy from DVC should suffice for a renter.
> 
> If a renter is unwilling to accept this there is always CRO.  Reduced price rentals come with some risk and a loss of control over the reservation.


Clever.  

But if you check this link http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=15189935&postcount=38  I think you will find that FarmerJohn is, in fact, a worthy DVC owner...so no need to flame out over his simple statement.


----------



## Deb & Bill

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> If you want to have access to an account all you have to do is buy a contract. I, for one, do not want renters having access to MY account. We are talking about privacy laws here. A written confirmation copy from DVC should suffice for a renter.





			
				JimMIA said:
			
		

> Clever.
> 
> But if you check this link http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=15189935&postcount=38  I think you will find that FarmerJohn is, in fact, a worthy DVC owner...so no need to flame out over his simple statement.




I didn't see it as a flame for Farmer John, but as a note for non-members who are still bemoaning the fact that they cannot call MS to confirm the reservation.


----------



## kimberh

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> But until you own the points, you don't get to set the rental requirements.  As a non-owner, you can ask the owner to do something, but they can turn you down if they don't like your method of payment, your terms of payment, the color of your check.



This is my point! I have had non-owners approach me with how a previous owner had rented to them. It did not meet my standards. That is why I asked the question and wanted to point out that we do have money on the line, until the reservation is paid in full. If we have paid to have the points transferred in, then we have even more money in the non-owners vacation. I do use a contract, I do not get it notarized. I require 50% down and the balance 60 days prior to travel. I do like the 90 days that I have just read. Some points cannot be returned back into an account. It does depend on the Uy. If a person rents every year, maybe they should consider buying. I have had two people say that to me recently. 

Happy vacationing and I am so sorry for the Op.


----------



## DMKEDM

I'm sorry to report there's still no news on our situation...

Steps have been taken, and now we have to wait for those steps to play out...it will likely take some time...but I'll pop back in here from time to time to let you know that we remain active in our pursuit of a resolution...and of course both Stacey & I will post when a final resolution occurs...but it will take some time...

I'll also repeat, for the readers here who are very nervous about renting: There were several spots in this "transaction" where my radar twanged...had I walked away when this evidence of something not quite right presented itself, I would not be out $870 ... the point is that a very clever scammer could probably get by everyone's "internal warning system"--but a very clever scammer is not likely to be "working these boards"...not enough money to be made for long enough to make it worth it. For the rest, had I applied even a little bit of common sense, I would have saved myself from my own stupidity! That doesn't mean I "blame myself"...I'm not the one who was dishonest. But I do see where my "blind" desire to acquire those points, regardless of warning signs, is what allowed the dishonest person who took my money to get away with it (so far, anyway). So, I don't feel particularly "scared" about the possibility of renting again...if I use reasonable caution, I feel the odds are good that I'll be fine and that both the person I would rent from and I would come out of the transaction happy...

Dani


----------



## Chuck S

Wishing you both the best of luck in recovering your losses.


----------



## JimMIA

Deb & Bill said:
			
		

> I didn't see it as a flame for Farmer John, but as a note for non-members who are still bemoaning the fact that they cannot call MS to confirm the reservation.


 But FarmerJohn is NOT a non-member.  He is a DVC owner just like the rest of us, who happens to sometimes rent his points and is open-minded enough to realize that the MS change has adversely impacted his potential customers, will reduce his market, cause him a lot more work, lower his profit margin, and make renting much less attractive for both owners and renters alike.

Personally, I agree with the rule change, but I think FarmerJohn should be allowed to express his opinion without being criticized in such a condescending manner.


----------



## Granny

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> For the rest, had I applied even a little bit of common sense, I would have saved myself from my own stupidity! That doesn't mean I "blame myself"...I'm not the one who was dishonest. But I do see where my "blind" desire to acquire those points, regardless of warning signs, is what allowed the dishonest person who took my money to get away with it (so far, anyway). So, I don't feel particularly "scared" about the possibility of renting again...if I use reasonable caution, I feel the odds are good that I'll be fine and that both the person I would rent from and I would come out of the transaction happy...
> 
> Dani


Dani...thank you for posting the update.  I think we are becoming aware that this will not be a particularly easy or quick solution, and again we offer our best wishes to you and Stacey in dealing with this person.  

I feel you are being a bit hard on yourself with the above comments.  Not because there weren't some opportunities to have done things a little differently, but because I think that many people have gone through rental transactions taking no more precautions than you did.  It is only because the person you are dealing with has no natural feelings of obligation to you that you ended up in this situation.  

I guess what I'm saying, is that many people could read your story and think "there but for the grace of God go I".  So don't be hard on yourself...frankly, it could have happened to a number of us and you just happened to pull the short straw. 

God bless you and best wishes.


----------



## JimMIA

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Steps have been taken, and now we have to wait for those steps to play out...it will likely take some time...


I know a lot of well-wishers have been concerned that things were moving slowly...or maybe not at all.  You have to realize that just because Dani and Stacey do not post their actions, that does not mean they are doing nothing.  They actually began taking appropriate actions on October 14...the date this thread started.  Although we would all like to see a quick resolution, these things do take some time.  

The passage of time does not hurt Dani and Stacey's "cases."  Time is on their side, not on the other side.  In fact, every day that passes without a resolution adds to the now-overwhelming body of evidence indicating clear criminal intent on the part of the person many of you call PP.  That strengthens -- not weakens -- their cases. 

In the end, there will be a resolution of these situations -- either positive or negative.  A positive resolution is available, but not up to Dani and Stacey.  A positive resolution depends on the other side doing the right thing.  If they choose a negative resolution, that is yet another poor decision, but it's their decision to make.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Thanks for the update!  I realize the wheels of justice turn slowly, but I was hoping for a change of heart on the part of the PP in hopes that they were going to make your path and theirs a little easier, but it appears the PP isn't quite bright enough for that.  Just chiming in with additional pixie dust and prayers for a resolution very soon.


----------



## robinb

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> Thanks for the update!  I realize the wheels of justice turn slowly, but I was hoping for a change of heart on the part of the PP in hopes that they were going to make your path and theirs a little easier, but it appears the PP isn't quite bright enough for that.  Just chiming in with additional pixie dust and prayers for a resolution very soon.


I too also hoping that the PP would buy half a clue and try to make things right without the law stepping in.  I still don't think she entered these transactions with the intent to defraud, but her actions (and _inaction_) two weeks later all point to fraud now.  Good luck with the legal route.


----------



## CRSNDSNY

I don't have time to read through all of the posts, but read the first few pages...I am so sorry this happened to you. How absolutely horrible.


----------



## DVC Daisy

Thanks for the update Dani.  Still hoping for an eventual positive resolution for both you and Staci!


----------



## cncDisney4

Dani, we appreciate the update and I agree with Granny that you shouldn't be so hard on yourself.  I mean, how many of us have looked back at a situation and slapped our heads in frustration!  That is life and we learn from our experiences - some experiences are just more costly than others.  You and Stacy will remain in my prayers.  You both seem to have a wonderful spirit and I know you and your families will get thru this.

Pixie Dust to you!


----------



## DisneyMommyMichelle

Thanks for the update and i hope all issues get resolved at some point in time.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Great post JimMIA and extremely accurate.  I wish I had concrete news to share, but nothing yet.  Hope all are doing well, and I agree with Dani - the red flags were there, but I overlooked them due to the excitment of a possible trip.  I won't do that again!!


----------



## Zoemakes5

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Great post JimMIA and extremely accurate.  I wish I had concrete news to share, but nothing yet.  Hope all are doing well, and I agree with Dani - the red flags were there, but I overlooked them due to the excitment of a possible trip.  I won't do that again!!



Stacey,
I know you're scheduled for this weekend...what's your status with that??  Are you guys going?


----------



## StaceySaulino

Hi, no unfortunatley we will not be going this weekend.  With everything that happened we couldn't swing it at this time.  Thanks for asking though.  I do appreicate it.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Sorry Stacey...Hope you've got some fun stuff planned for the weekend to keep you mind off what could (should!) have been.


----------



## Sammie

JimMIA said:
			
		

> But FarmerJohn is NOT a non-member.  He is a DVC owner just like the rest of us, who happens to sometimes rent his points and is open-minded enough to realize that the MS change has adversely impacted his potential customers, will reduce his market, cause him a lot more work, lower his profit margin, and make renting much less attractive for both owners and renters alike.
> 
> Personally, I agree with the rule change, but I think FarmerJohn should be allowed to express his opinion without being criticized in such a condescending manner.



If in fact Farmer John is doing what you described above does that not sound alot like a commercial business. I don't believe that was what DVC was meant to be. 

And just maybe DVC decided the changes would affect that.   

Calling MS by renters was tying up phone lines that truly had no purpose. The confirmation is more than enough proof the reservation has been made. Actually speaking to MS did not guarantee anything more.


----------



## JimMIA

Sammie said:
			
		

> If in fact Farmer John is doing what you described above does that not sound alot like a commercial business.


Not to me.  In his post, he says he rented some points FROM another DVC member to get an 11-month window somewhere, and then rented some of his points (first and only time he's ever rented) to recoup his expenditure.

That sounds to me like the kind of rental opportunity we all are glad to have for unexpected situations, not a commercial business.  I think all he's saying is that he knows if he ever gets in that situation again, he's going to have a much more difficult time renting.

As I said earlier, I happen to agree with the rule -- my objection was the *tone of the comments * made toward him without bothering to check any facts.


----------



## svalencia1

I just got done reading this whole ordeal. How horrible that this happened to you. I want to hank you for posting this though because I am wanting to rent points for our next vacation and now have some things to think about. I pray that the PP will look inside of herself and realize what she did was wrong and find a way to fix it for you. Lots of pixie dust   being sent to you.


----------



## Sammie

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Not to me.  In his post, he says he rented some points FROM another DVC member to get an 11-month window somewhere, and then rented some of his points (first and only time he's ever rented) to recoup his expenditure.
> 
> That sounds to me like the kind of rental opportunity we all are glad to have for unexpected situations, not a commercial business.  I think all he's saying is that he knows if he ever gets in that situation again, he's going to have a much more difficult time renting.
> 
> As I said earlier, I happen to agree with the rule -- my objection was the *tone of the comments * made toward him without bothering to check any facts.



My comment was based on "your" description, not what he actually did. Was not aware of his situation, just your description of it.

I don't think contacting MS by the person renting is any safeguard. Probably the best safeguard of all was the willingness of Dani and Stacey to share their experiences.


----------



## FarmerJohn

[/QUOTE]
originaly posted by Sammie
If in fact Farmer John is doing what you described above does that not sound alot like a commercial business. I don't believe that was what DVC was meant to be. 

And just maybe DVC decided the changes would affect that. 

Calling MS by renters was tying up phone lines that truly had no purpose. The confirmation is more than enough proof the reservation has been made. Actually speaking to MS did not guarantee anything more.

Thanks JimMIA for sticking up for me
I am not running a comercial business if anyone looks back they will see that I rented points from an OKW member so I could get a Grand Villa at 11 months out for a family reunion trip; rented 255 OKW points so I figured I'd rent out my 250 BWV points to reimburse myself
This was My second time renting; first was when sister & brother inlaw could not come down with us at Easter so I rented the studio reservation I had made for them 
With todays copying & printing technology it would be very easy for someone to make a very official looking fake confirmation
It would realy stink for a renter to go to the checkin desk with a bogus confirmation
being able to call and verify that the confirmation is in fact real and in your name can be somewhat comforting
As far as renters tying up the phone lines   I doubt that I think it's that DVC has added so many rooms & not kept up with adding staff
just my $.02


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

Stacey and Dani - thank you so much for your continued updates. I just wanted to let you both know that I am still thinking of you and hoping for some kind of a satisfactory resolution for you and your families.


----------



## FarmerJohn

The reason I posted on this thread was to maybe help someone else from getting in the same terrible situation Dani & Staci are in
   Just wanted to point out that MS phone policy is making it more dificult  for a renter to confirm they actualy have a res. in their name before they send that payment to the person they are renting from
  As far as checking on someones credability by the # of posts under their name doesn't necessarily mean much; can be a dis newcomer with thousands of posts , I mean saying "welcome home" a couple of hundred times could bring your post count up but how much has that poster realy said?
   I consider myself a DISNEY veteran having 30 some odd trips to the "world" since my first time in Easter of "73 with my parents
   I like to come here and read how people  experience the same magic that I feel each time We go to Disney World though some call it LURKING
   Being a construction worker I don't get much computer time & when I get home these beat up fingers are not very nimble at typing (one handed hunt & peck) so even though I've been coming here regularly for a long time I don't have a lot of posts to my name & I'm still considered (earning my ears)
just another $.02


----------



## Sammie

> Thanks JimMIA for sticking up for me
> I am not running a comercial business if anyone looks back they will see that I rented points from an OKW member so I could get a Grand Villa at 11 months out for a family reunion trip; rented 255 OKW points so I figured I'd rent out my 250 BWV points to reimburse myself
> This was My second time renting; first was when sister & brother inlaw could not come down with us at Easter so I rented the studio reservation I had made for them
> With todays copying & printing technology it would be very easy for someone to make a very official looking fake confirmation
> It would realy stink for a renter to go to the checkin desk with a bogus confirmation
> being able to call and verify that the confirmation is in fact real and in your name can be somewhat comforting
> As far as renters tying up the phone lines   I doubt that I think it's that DVC has added so many rooms & not kept up with adding staff
> just my $.02



John, no one said you were, Jim's description is what I would call a  Commercial business and probably does not describe what you do at all. 

I just don't think calling verifies anything and was tying up phone lines. It only confirms at that particular moment everything is fine, but that could change within minutes of calling. It is false security. 

Another reason I was told that MS wanted to discontinue the phone calls as they don't want to give those renting the impression that Disney is anyway involved in the transaction. They had people upset with the Renting process and they had called to verify the reservation and in turn felt Disney should help them resolve it. This way they take a hands off approach. I don't have any problems with renting for personal use. 

And you make a good point about posting counts, many do lurk for years and don't run up a high count and are very reliable members.


----------



## Sarah

Holy crow! My hugest sympathies, and my worst nightmare! I look foward to hearing good stories of your resolutions!

Fingers double crossed here!


----------



## KandiB47

FarmerJohn said:
			
		

> The reason I posted on this thread was to maybe help someone else from getting in the same terrible situation Dani & Staci are in
> Just wanted to point out that MS phone policy is making it more dificult  for a renter to confirm they actualy have a res. in their name before they send that payment to the person they are renting from
> As far as checking on someones credability by the # of posts under their name doesn't necessarily mean much; can be a dis newcomer with thousands of posts , I mean saying "welcome home" a couple of hundred times could bring your post count up but how much has that poster realy said?
> I consider myself a DISNEY veteran having 30 some odd trips to the "world" since my first time in Easter of "73 with my parents
> I like to come here and read how people  experience the same magic that I feel each time We go to Disney World though some call it LURKING
> Being a construction worker I don't get much computer time & when I get home these beat up fingers are not very nimble at typing (one handed hunt & peck) so even though I've been coming here regularly for a long time I don't have a lot of posts to my name & I'm still considered (earning my ears)
> just another $.02



I agree.  I too am a "lurker" which I think makes it harder to rent my points.  I think join date along with post numbers should be considered.


----------



## Beachangel

I've transfered points twice via paypal with no problem.  Sorry to hear your story.  Personally, I understand why the mods won't allow you to name names, but do not agree with the policy.  It may save someone else the agony.


----------



## JimMIA

Beachangel said:
			
		

> Personally, I understand why the mods won't allow you to name names, but do not agree with the policy.  It may save someone else the agony.


In keeping with DIS policies, it's already been posted that no one is going to identify anyone here.  

However, if someone is a _*prospective renter*_, and wants to run a name by me, you're welcome to do that.  

I won't play 20 Questions, nor will I answer idle curiousity inquiries, but if you are involved in rental discussions with an owner, I'll be happy to tell you if you're dealing with this person...via PM or email only, of course.


----------



## tor

I don't agree with the policy of protecting the perpetrator's name. In the beginning one might say it is just a misunderstanding but at this late date without the money being returned or points transferred why protect the person? It only gives the person the oppurtunity to strike again.

As far as non members calling ms  why? They can call the hotel to verify the reservation. It is not like they can tell ms to lock the reservation so it can't be canceled.


----------



## jimh13432

tor said:
			
		

> I don't agree with the policy of protecting the perpetrator's name. In the beginning one might say it is just a misunderstanding but at this late date without the money being returned or points transferred why protect the person? It only gives the person the oppurtunity to strike again.
> 
> As far as non members calling ms  why? They can call the hotel to verify the reservation. It is not like they can tell ms to lock the reservation so it can't be canceled.




What good would it do to release the person's name?  They would only re-register with a new name if it ever became a problem.  "Renter" beware.  If you're renting points you need to know who you're dealing with and be comfortable that the person is not going to screw you.  

As far as non memebers calling MS, MS is paid for by DVC members for DVC members use.


----------



## JimMIA

tor said:
			
		

> I don't agree with the policy of protecting the perpetrator's name. In the beginning one might say it is just a misunderstanding but at this late date without the money being returned or points transferred why protect the person? It only gives the person the oppurtunity to strike again.


Well, you have to remember that 99% of the problematic rentals are actually only misunderstandings...not fraud.  If anyone could post anyone else's ID, you'd have a lot of baseless accusations, and there would be no way to tell legit claims from silly ones.





			
				jimh13432 said:
			
		

> What good would it do to release the person's name? They would only re-register with a new name if it ever became a problem.


I wasn't talking about a screen name.  I was talking about the actual name.  This person, in fact, has used several screen names.


----------



## DMKEDM

It occurs to me that our opinions on whether we should/can post "PP's" name are kind of irrelevant...it's not our decision! It's entirely up to Disboards...and they say "no." I'm sure they have their reasons (I can think of several possibilities right off the top of my head), but bottom line is that this is their website and they get to make the rules! I shall abide by them, and be grateful they let me say as much as I've said, and that they make not only this discussion site, but also the R/T board, available to us!

And as a previous poster mentioned, the "wheels of justice" move slowly...no update to provide, and we don't expect to have one for a while yet...

Happy weekend to everyone...

Dani


----------



## BeccaG

I have been lurking on this thread (along with many others by looking at the view count) and I just wanted to add my prayers and sympathy to Dani and Stacy! Thanks to all of you who offered advice and have been working behind the scene on this issue.  To be frank, this has been one of the more civil "real" discussions I have read on the DIS.  (As opposed to the threads that discuss the validity of SSR as a DVC resort   )  Yes, people have been tense and opinionanted, but for the most part, personal attacks have been kept at a minimum.  I think that is largely do to the fact that Stacy and Dani have been so positive themselves.   Perhaps, if nothing else, this will help make us all, renters and rentees, a little wiser, fairer, more courteous, and more honest in our own transactions.


----------



## BurkeTribe

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> It occurs to me that our opinions on whether we should/can post "PP's" name are kind of irrelevant...it's not our decision! It's entirely up to Disboards...and they say "no." I'm sure they have their reasons (I can think of several possibilities right off the top of my head), but bottom line is that this is their website and they get to make the rules! I shall abide by them, and be grateful they let me say as much as I've said, and that they make not only this discussion site, but also the R/T board, available to us!
> 
> And as a previous poster mentioned, the "wheels of justice" move slowly...no update to provide, and we don't expect to have one for a while yet...
> 
> Happy weekend to everyone...
> 
> Dani




I think a lot of people have an idea of the first names and state, if the usernames/etc. from the PP's posts in the other thread are close to the real names... if they are, the PP outed herself/himself   

If not... well, that's another red flag.

Of course, someone unlucky enough to have that first name in that state and trying to rent points owned by a relative may find the going tough for a while ....


----------



## manning

tor said:
			
		

> I don't agree with the policy of protecting the perpetrator's name. In the beginning one might say it is just a misunderstanding but at this late date without the money being returned or points transferred why protect the person? It only gives the person the oppurtunity to strike again.




I don't think I would like to get into the legal mess that revealing would bring on.

The policy should be left as is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## robinb

FarmerJohn said:
			
		

> Just wanted to point out that MS phone policy is making it more dificult  for a renter to confirm they actualy have a res. in their name before they send that payment to the person they are renting from


No one should send money until they have a written confirmation in their name.  Like I said before, calling MS to verify a reservation is really a false sense of security.  The member can cancel the reservation at any time.



> I consider myself a DISNEY veteran having 30 some odd trips to the "world" since my first time in Easter of "73 with my parents
> I like to come here and read how people  experience the same magic that I feel each time We go to Disney World though some call it LURKING


As long as you share your own experiences I don't consider you a lurker .


----------



## RichAyers

FarmerJohn said:
			
		

> I hate the fact that member services doesn't allow non members to call anymore
> It was nice when a renter could call & check on their reservation with the confirmation #




Again, not a flame, but I wanted to reference this quote in my response since it was relevant:

The don't call it *MEMBER SERVICES* for nothing 

RichAyers


----------



## Sammie

tor said:
			
		

> I don't agree with the policy of protecting the perpetrator's name. In the beginning one might say it is just a misunderstanding but at this late date without the money being returned or points transferred why protect the person? It only gives the person the oppurtunity to strike again.
> 
> As far as non members calling ms  why? They can call the hotel to verify the reservation. It is not like they can tell ms to lock the reservation so it can't be canceled.



Putting the person's name on public display will accomplish nothing. JimMIA has offered to share enough detail to protect anyone thinking they might be dealing with the same person. 

However the public display could possibly affect resolution of the situation.


----------



## JimMIA

BeccaG said:
			
		

> To be frank, this has been one of the more civil "real" discussions I have read on the DIS.  (As opposed to the threads that discuss the validity of SSR as a DVC resort   )  Yes, people have been tense and opinionanted, but for the most part, personal attacks have been kept at a minimum.  I think that is largely do to the fact that Stacy and Dani have been so positive themselves.


*I'm glad you mentioned this, because I've been thinking the same thing since about page 10! * 

With the exception of the ROFR thread and one or two others, I rarely look at threads that have more than 5 pages, because by that time two or three people have usually paired off in a juvenile pissing contest, and I'm not interested in those.  This thread has been very different -- it really does show the good side of the DIS -- and I think you are precisely right about the reason.


----------



## JimMIA

Sammie said:
			
		

> Putting the person's name on public display will accomplish nothing.


Actually, I think it would be big-time fun to do that, and then send them a text message to come look!   

But as Dani rightly says, it would be against the rules.


----------



## Tinkerbellcrafter

This is horrible thing to happen.  I am new to posting to the boards but have been reading them for awhile.  I would not have seen the warning signs, either.  Since we are currently looking for points, it is a clear now what to avoid.


----------



## RDCAnthony

I hope this has a happy ending


----------



## JimMIA

Tinkerbellcrafter said:
			
		

> This is horrible thing to happen.  I am new to posting to the boards but have been reading them for awhile.  I would not have seen the warning signs, either.  Since we are currently looking for points, it is a clear now what to avoid.


 You might find this thread useful, because it's intended to put much of the helpful info from this thread in one place for prospective renters. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1255828


----------



## tor

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> It occurs to me that our opinions on whether we should/can post "PP's" name are kind of irrelevant...it's not our decision! It's entirely up to Disboards...and they say "no." I'm sure they have their reasons (I can think of several possibilities right off the top of my head), but bottom line is that this is their website and they get to make the rules! I shall abide by them, and be grateful they let me say as much as I've said, and that they make not only this discussion site, but also the R/T board, available to us!
> 
> And as a previous poster mentioned, the "wheels of justice" move slowly...no update to provide, and we don't expect to have one for a while yet...
> 
> Happy weekend to everyone...
> 
> Dani



I do realize it is not my decision to make but like all other customer service businesses it is not always the best idea to not give consideration to what the customer wants.


----------



## JimMIA

tor said:
			
		

> I do realize it is not my decision to make but like all other customer service businesses it is not always the best idea to not give consideration to what the customer wants.


Well, there are a lot of ways to look at that. 

For one obvious point, what _one_ customer wants may not be what the _vast majority _ of customers want.  

Secondly, what we want as customers _may not be compatible with running the business_. Customer desires are only one factor a business has to consider.  They also have to consider legal issues, whether the idea meshes well with the strategic objectives of the business, and many other things.  You've obviously been around the DIS long enough to know that they HAVE considered allowing what you suggest and have rejected the idea. 

Third, the situation we have here with Dani and Stacey is one case where _maybe_ there would be some small benefit to "naming names."  But that benefit would be very transient, and this is a very rare situation.  The truth is, this thread will fade into oblivion someday soon, and any temporary benefit of naming someone would be lost.  You don't change established policies just because one bizarre exception occurs in which there might be some marginal and temporary benefit to deviating from the policy.

And finally,_ it's not necessary_.  There are no mysteries about identity in this particular situation, and we can confirm identity to anyone *with a need to know * without changing or violating DIS policies that make good sense in the first place.

If you feel strongly about this, I'd recommend that you PM WebmasterDoc and express your opinion.


----------



## Lasrnw

There are plenty of negatives about these transactions at this point. I would like to suggest that a thread be started stressing the positives in a transactions.  Basically what to look for in a positive transaction - from both sides of the transaction. People renting points to others have had situations where they were concered about whether someone was going to pay them because of how they handled themselves the same as the people laying out the money do....this would help everyone. My opening comments would be that I will only send money with a written contract and that I try to do business close to home -


----------



## JimMIA

Lasrnw said:
			
		

> There are plenty of negatives about these transactions at this point. I would like to suggest that a thread be started stressing the positives in a transactions.  Basically what to look for in a positive transaction - from both sides of the transaction. People renting points to others have had situations where they were concered about whether someone was going to pay them because of how they handled themselves the same as the people laying out the money do....this would help everyone. My opening comments would be that I will only send money with a written contract and that I try to do business close to home -


 That's a very valid point, especially since this situation is an extremely rare occurrance.  The overwhelming majority of rental transactions go off without a hitch, and we should remember that.

Disnyfanatic has started a thread called DVC Point Rental Primer which offers tips to prospective renters.  Positive comments on that thread would be very welcome, and would be easier for a prospective renter to find later than suggestions on this thread.


----------



## Cindi0511

Lasrnw said:
			
		

> There are plenty of negatives about these transactions at this point. I would like to suggest that a thread be started stressing the positives in a transactions.  Basically what to look for in a positive transaction - from both sides of the transaction. People renting points to others have had situations where they were concered about whether someone was going to pay them because of how they handled themselves the same as the people laying out the money do....this would help everyone. My opening comments would be that I will only send money with a written contract and that I try to do business close to home -



I have rented points only once, and that was last December. We had plenty of our own points, but there were no reservations to be had for a studio anywhere period. This situation could have easily happened to me, except that we used PayPal, which does give a small measure of protection. BUT, we needed a reservation and it went off without a hitch. I am not a trusting person by nature, so it was a huge leap of faith for me. The guy we rented from was great. We didn't have time to get even a confirmation letter, so it was all faith, even though we talked with a CM, I knew that didn't mean much. But, like I said, the DVC owner we rented from was true to his word and even sent a follow-up e-mail asking how our trip was. Yes, I paid more for the points than they were worth, but we were new to DVC and didn't realize how hard it would be to get a reservation in December.

All of that to say, Dani and Stacey, I love that you don't blame everyone else in the world for ignoring your own warning bells.   I think that speaks VOLUMES for your characters, and I would love to know you in person. I also like that you are doing something about it, and that you were willing to swallow your pride to try to keep others from the same tragedy.   I think there are probably thousands of rentals that go off wonderfully, but we can all always stop for a minute, take a deep breath and a step back and make sure it sounds and feels right. Still may not stop every scammer, but let's make it as hard for them as possible!  

And thanks to everyone for keeping this civil.


----------



## paults

Cindi0511


> Yes, I paid more for the points than they were worth, but we were new to DVC and didn't realize how hard it would be to get a reservation in December.



what did you pay for the pts that they were not worth the cost?
a cash ressie for a DVC studio  cost over $300 nt to $400 nt in DEC at OKW or SSR and a lot more at VWL/BCV/BWV.  
Just curious why you think you paid to much.


----------



## Sammie

> That's a very valid point, especially since this situation is an extremely rare occurrance. The overwhelming majority of rental transactions go off without a hitch, and we should remember that



Jim, I would be interested in knowing the source for this statement. I would be willing to agree that the odds are in favor of no problems, but not sure I would agree that this is an extremely rare occurrance or that it is an over whelming majority go off without a hitch. Even if we base it on DIS transaction that is still only a part of the total picture. I don't think we have facts to state either way actually.


----------



## JimMIA

Sammie said:
			
		

> Jim, I would be interested in knowing the source for this statement. I would be willing to agree that the odds are in favor of no problems, but not sure I would agree that this is an extremely rare occurrance or that it is an over whelming majority go off without a hitch.


The source is comments by Doc that there have been very few bad situations since the inception of the DIS R/T Board.  In fact, out of the hundreds (probably thousands) of transactions each year, I have only heard of two situations where anyone got hurt prior to the situations which are the subject of this thread.  To me, that's quite a remarkable record.


> Even if we base it on DIS transaction that is still only a part of the total picture.


The DIS transactions are all I was talking about.  I'm really not concerned about the experiences at places like eBay.


----------



## Sammie

JimMIA said:
			
		

> The source is comments by Doc that there have been very few bad situations since the inception of the DIS R/T Board.  In fact, out of the hundreds (probably thousands) of transactions each year, I have only heard of two situations where anyone got hurt prior to the situations which are the subject of this thread.  To me, that's quite a remarkable record.
> The DIS transactions are all I was talking about.  I'm really not concerned about the experiences at places like eBay.



I agree that the DIS probably does have this type of record and Doc would certainly know. I just don't think we can exclude other rentals outside the DIS was my point. For I know for sure some of them have not gone well and they weren't on Ebay. There are many rental listings available from other sources.


----------



## Jim from Jersey

"That's a very valid point, especially since this situation is an extremely rare occurrance. The overwhelming majority of rental transactions go off without a hitch, and we should remember that" - JimMIA

I'm not sure about others, but it was pretty clear to me that Jim was referring to transactions on the DIS.  Being that this thread is based on a DIS transaction, mentions throughout by other posters, including a webmaster, that this kind of issue is very rare, and is taking place on a DIS discussion forum, why would anyone think that his statement would include outside transactions. 

Sorry, but again, the intent of the statement seems to be pretty obvious and without putting words in JimMIA's mouth, I understood it to be noting the outstanding track record of transactions that have taken place on the DIS rent/trade forum.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Sammie said:
			
		

> I agree that the DIS probably does have this type of record and Doc would certainly know. I just don't think we can exclude other rentals outside the DIS was my point. For I know for sure some of them have not gone well and they weren't on Ebay. There are many rental listings available from other sources.


But here on the DIS, we have no knowledge of or control of any kind over those.  I think the point is to make sure renting on the DIS is a safer bet than elsewhere, and I certainly agree that we have heard very little about problems with transactions here other than the ones mentioned in this thread.


----------



## JimMIA

Sammie said:
			
		

> I just don't think we can exclude other rentals outside the DIS was my point. For I know for sure some of them have not gone well and they weren't on Ebay. There are many rental listings available from other sources.


I also know Sammie well enough to know that if they posted this, there *indeed have been significant problems * in other venues.  Sammie has much better contacts with DVC than I do, and I know a comment like this wouldn't just pop up if it weren't true. 

[ETA: As a matter of fact, I pointed out during "The Great MS Call/Transfer Debate" that one rationale for the changes might have been rental problems that we didn't see here on the DIS.  I'm sure someone showing up at a resort, thinking they have a ressie only to learn that they don't, is a Front Desk Manager's worst nightmare. (or at least one of their nightmares)  Disney normally would not have any liability in that situation, but it would certainly present a difficult challenge for them.] 

To me, that is yet another argument for those folks to discover the DIS.   There's really nothing we can do to help them until they find their way here.


----------



## Cindi0511

paults said:
			
		

> Cindi0511
> 
> 
> what did you pay for the pts that they were not worth the cost?
> a cash ressie for a DVC studio  cost over $300 nt to $400 nt in DEC at OKW or SSR and a lot more at VWL/BCV/BWV.
> Just curious why you think you paid to much.



I paid $104 each for two nights, I think. My saying it was not worth the cost was based on my already HAVING enough points to cover my stay but being unable to get a reservation and also on the basis that most points rent out for $10 each. Again, I am not trying to reraise the cost-per-point is too high/too low debate. Just stating my reasonings as an owner with points to use. Also, we stayed at OKW, and the room was very run down, multiple lights weren't working, fans not working, etc., and my kids were really sick so I didn't have the energy to deal with maintenance at the same time, as there were allegedly no other studios open. Not bashing DVC at all. I own and I love it.


----------



## tor

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Well, there are a lot of ways to look at that.
> 
> For one obvious point, what _one_ customer wants may not be what the _vast majority _ of customers want.
> 
> Secondly, what we want as customers _may not be compatible with running the business_. Customer desires are only one factor a business has to consider.  They also have to consider legal issues, whether the idea meshes well with the strategic objectives of the business, and many other things.  You've obviously been around the DIS long enough to know that they HAVE considered allowing what you suggest and have rejected the idea.
> 
> Third, the situation we have here with Dani and Stacey is one case where _maybe_ there would be some small benefit to "naming names."  But that benefit would be very transient, and this is a very rare situation.  The truth is, this thread will fade into oblivion someday soon, and any temporary benefit of naming someone would be lost.  You don't change established policies just because one bizarre exception occurs in which there might be some marginal and temporary benefit to deviating from the policy.
> 
> And finally,_ it's not necessary_.  There are no mysteries about identity in this particular situation, and we can confirm identity to anyone *with a need to know * without changing or violating DIS policies that make good sense in the first place.
> 
> If you feel strongly about this, I'd recommend that you PM WebmasterDoc and express your opinion.




You are right I just assumed the vast majority did not want to get ripped off by the same person but I could be wrong.

I am not a lawyer and I do not understand the legal issue in stating that this particular screen name had not held up their end of the rent/trade agreement as it appears from earlier posts that all parties agree she did not deliver.

Maybe there could be some method of feedback similiar to that of EBAY or Amazon to make it easier to figure who is an honest broker?? I am not sure as to the work and cost something like this would create.

As far as confirming for the people with a need to know.  What if the person that needs to know doesn't know they need to know because they haven't stumbled on this thread? This is truly an amazingly large information portal and something could be missed? 

Also I do not have the solution to prevent this or I would pm the webmaster with it I was merely expressing concern to be debated in hopes of finding a way to avoid this in the future


----------



## dianeschlicht

More prayers and hugs, Dani, and Stacey!  Hope something happens soon for you guys.  Any news on the PP coming forward and doing the right thing yet?  On second thought, I doubt that person has the integrity to do that, so strike that last question.


----------



## Frankiesmom

Has there been any update or some form of resolution to this sad tale? This just sickens me...


----------



## StaceySaulino

Hi All, 

Just reading the posts and wanted to check in and let everyone know that I don't have any news yet.  Sorry, I keep wishing for an update so I can put your minds at ease, but I just don't have any news.  

On a brighter note, my two year old is all set to be a puppy tonight and my seven year old will be a zombie.  They are so excited they can't stand it.  I live in PA and the weather is supposed to be nice (70 degrees).  Everything working out to be a wonderful Halloween, despite our little mishap a few weeks ago.


----------



## bobbiwoz

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> ..
> Everything working out to be a wonderful Halloween, despite our little mishap a few weeks ago.



That's nice to hear.

Bobbi


----------



## chris1gill

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> Just reading the posts and wanted to check in and let everyone know that I don't have any news yet.  Sorry, I keep wishing for an update so I can put your minds at ease, but I just don't have any news.
> 
> On a brighter note, my two year old is all set to be a puppy tonight and my seven year old will be a zombie.  They are so excited they can't stand it.  I live in PA and the weather is supposed to be nice (70 degrees).  Everything working out to be a wonderful Halloween, despite our little mishap a few weeks ago.



That's wonderful! Have a great time tonight   Kids just love Halloween don't they???


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

70 degrees?  That's awesome!  It's only supposed to get up to 50 here in WA.  Sorry Stacey...don't live close enough, so here's a virtual treat for the kids:


----------



## Lewisc

I would hope DIS would make an exception to their policy regarding banning and naming names if a problem case like this results in some type of legal resolution such as a verdict in small claims court.


----------



## mikesmom

So all they have to do then is come on here with a new name - they've used 2 names obviously already. And as for posting the real name, it wouldn't do much good. The perpetrator already got around that one by telling Dani they "didn't have any ID" and convinced her to send a code word over to Western Union so the money could be picked up without ID.

There is no real barrier against a determined scammer except to take personal precautions and if something doesn't "feel" right to step away. Kudos go to Dani for putting herself out there to tell this story - it will help others (I hope) to be more cautious.


----------



## BurkeTribe

mikesmom said:
			
		

> So all they have to do then is come on here with a new name - they've used 2 names obviously already. And as for posting the real name, it wouldn't do much good. The perpetrator already got around that one by telling Dani they "didn't have any ID" and convinced her to send a code word over to Western Union so the money could be picked up without ID.
> 
> There is no real barrier against a determined scammer except to take personal precautions and if something doesn't "feel" right to step away. Kudos go to Dani for putting herself out there to tell this story - it will help others (I hope) to be more cautious.




Plus, at this point anyone following this thread and looking at renting could spot this probable renter-turned-scammer a mile away even if the names she posts with are fake.

 If someone (maybe in NY) with either of those first names from the screen-names tries to rent you a relative's points, run  

This thread has been helpful to me because I didn't realize one could look up the ownership at 
http://www.comptroller.co.orange.fl.us/

That is a pretty good FIRST step for a rentee to feel good about a rental 

PS- Does anyone have a link to a listing of the total number of points sold by Disney for each DVC resort? I could probably calculate it by searching deeds and old rentals but don't have the hours to spend   
(EDIT) Aha, found it-- http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1187161


----------



## StaceySaulino

It's unusually warm here in PA today.  It's usually at least 50 degrees.  Thanks for the virtual treats.  I'll be sure to show the kids when school is over


----------



## NARM Forever

Stacey, hope you guys had a great Halloween.  My guys were Darth Vader and Power Rangers - had to keep that Disney theme    Don't know about you but we got a ridiculous amount of candy, guess they want to fatten us up to cope with the Canadian cold.   I'm still lurking hoping to hear some good news for you and Dani, still keeping 'em toes crossed.

Bev


----------



## mufasa0505

Stacey, I haven't posted in this thread yet, but I just wanted to say I hope your family had a great Halloween.


----------



## Joni

This may sound really stupid but what is the red flag about Western Union?
I have never wired money anywhere and never recieved money from anyone. I'm not sure where a Western Union pick-up  is around here. What is the correct way to transfer money?  Don't think I would ever rent my points because we would probably just let family use them if we couldn't. Hopefully don't have to rent points because I think we finally have enough.


----------



## mikesmom

It's a red flag because it's pretty much like sending someone cash. You can't stop the "check" because there isn't one, you can't reverse the transaction like with a credit card. You just sent someone cash and there is no way to call it back.


----------



## DMKEDM

Hi to all our good Disboard friends...your good wishes and happy thoughts (and pixie dust) have made such a difference over the past couple of weeks...thank you so much.

Like Stacey, there's no news on my front...and it will take a good deal of time (if things go as predicted) before there's anything to report...but I'm happy to share with you that we're just shy of three weeks from leaving for a "taste of the magic"...we go to SSR for T-giving...AND a so totally awesome development: my college son is bringing his new girlfriend w/him--and it will be her first trip to WDW (but she's a lifelong fan of all things Disney; she's just never been to WDW)...how magical will that be?!!?!! We're SO excited!

So, life is good and I hope I get to meet all of you at our favorite spot in the near future!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Dani


----------



## dianeschlicht

Dani, our favorite thing is showing newbies around the World!  You will have a BLAST  doing that.  Be sure to let us know how the crowds are at Thanksgiving, because we will be there at that time next year celebrating our son's marriage in Disney.


----------



## Uberweasle

Wow, what a thread. It's unfortunate that events like these occur, and each of you have my sympathy and best wishes. I hope you find satisfactory resolution to your issues, and that the culprit is dealt with appropriately.

Tom, your offer of points speak volumes about your character. I hope you are in the office next time we are in Orlando so that I have the opportunity to meet you and shake your hand.

This thread seems to have brough out the best in many Dis members. Kudos to you all.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> I'm happy to share with you that we're just shy of three weeks from leaving for a "taste of the magic".



It is my greatest wish that you experience more than just a taste, as you deserve a veritable feast after what you've been through!  Have a good one!


----------



## StaceySaulino

Hi All,

Just wanted to say hello and test out my cool little picture on my signature.  I finally added some fun to my account


----------



## castleri

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> It is my greatest wish that you experience more than just a taste, as you deserve a veritable feast after what you've been through!  Have a good one!



Maybe one of the really great "million dreams"  will come their way -  let's hope so


----------



## dianeschlicht

castleri said:
			
		

> Maybe one of the really great "millionb dreams"  will come their way -  let's hope so


Wouldn't THAT be cool?!?!?!?!!!!!


----------



## Gary K. D.

Funny but this is the second reference to requesting money through Western Union that I have heard of.  In both cases, they were scams involving timeshares. The other one that I am familiar with occurred through Tug to a friend and, fortunately, the deal became so complicated that my friend backed out. Further investigation revealed a bogus phone number and a "drop" mail address.  It must be because of the lax rules on money transfers by Western Union and their lack of safe guards.  I guess the rule here is that is if it through Western Union, walk away.


----------



## BurkeTribe

Gary K. D. said:
			
		

> .  I guess the rule here is that is if it through Western Union, walk away.




Western Union money transfer is great for the original purpose-- wiring  money to someone one knows who needs money fast. If it's a case of something like "brother who's travelling in Armenia out of cash," sure, Western Union him some moolah. But I would never use it for any type of purchase transaction (and I see "Russian" cameras all the time that I would love to buy online, but not by sending money by WU to Siberia    ).


----------



## canwegosoon

Thanks for posting...and I am so sorry this has happened to you.


----------



## tinks#1fan

I've read this whole thread now but wish I had 3 weeks ago. I was also scammed by the same person "R". I too, am new to this site but it was recommended to me as a way to stay on Disney for a reasonable price. If it works out, it is very reasonable. 

I answered a "points for rent" thread and starting dealings with this unscrupulous "owner". She didn't want money from Western Union though, she requested a Postal money order. She wanted it overnighted. The day she was to receive it I got a PM from someone who saw I was dealing with this person and directed me to the Vogel Family thread. I instantly went on the USPS web site and found out that they had tried to deliver it but no one was home. They left a notice that they would try to deliver it the next day. I quickly called my local post office and told them I needed to stop the overnight delivery. They told me to come right in and they would call the NY post office it went to to stop it. When I got to the post office (15 minutes later) they called NY and were told that she had just picked it up 5 minutes earlier. 

She apparently tried to cash it there but had no ID. The post office people knew she was a scam artist and were told if she acted suspicious picking up another letter/package they were to call the police, which they did but she was already gone. They thought she had probably gone to some Mom and Pop shop that wouldn't care about ID and cashed it there. 

Anyway, I put a hold on the money order in case she didn't get to cash it. I haven't heard yet if she did. I also filled out some paperwork to start a postal investigation, this would fall under mail fraud (federal offense). Anyway, apparently, the NY post master got in touch with her and stated if she didn't return the money she would be charged with mail fraud.

Long story short, she has moved (disappeared) and, of course, left no forwarding address. So, there I am. 

I had already told my 8 year old about the trip so after talking to some obviously reputable owners, found someone to rent me the points I needed for our February trip. I just got the confirmation and a contract today.    

Anyway, just wanted you all to know she has struck again, is still using the same name as the Vogel thread, and has disappeared for now. I think you all have been wonderfully supportive to her "victims", thank you for that. I too genuinely believe that most people are honest and trustworthy, it didn't necessarily serve me well this time, but I still believe in mankind. 

I would love to know if Stacey or Dani have any better outcomes. I'll be following this thread, I just couldn't add my two cents till I got over the trauma, and knew for sure that we'd still be able to go. 

Peace to you all, Sally


----------



## Muushka

I am so sorry Sally.  I hope that with your circumstances they are able to prosecute her even more effectively with the mail fraud.  Fingers crossed for all who are involved with this....um...don't know what to call the perp.


----------



## Scotch

Sally, I, too, am so sorry to hear of your loss!  Can we change the title of this thread so it catches the eyes of newbies casually browsing the board??  Can we put a link to this thread as a sticky on the rental board?


----------



## DMKEDM

Sally: It stinks, doesn't it? Am so glad you got your alternative reservation arrangements made and that you did not have to disappoint your young one...that would be the worst! Losing the money is painful; disappointing the little ones is insupportable!

I have nothing as yet to report except some renewed peace of mind...the necessary steps have been taken to hold this person accountable. Whether they work or not in terms of getting my money back remains to be seen. They will make it immeasurably more difficult, if not impossible, for this person to "strike again" and that is worth something.

The people here on Disboards, with their unstinting moral support and generosity of both spirit and "goods" (both Stacey and I have (and will continue to) decline those very generous monetary and points offers), have gone a long way towards my success in achieving some emotional equilibrium over this situation.

I'm sure you will be the beneficiary of all the good will on these boards, too, and that will also help you take what you can learn from the situation and also benefit from the clouds of pixie dust and warm good feelings that come with such unstintingly generous expressions of good will...

You have all my sympathy on the damage done to you, and hope you find the same "wonder" from the "magic" of the wonderful folks here on Disboards!

Dani


----------



## OneMoreTry

I rented a condo from someone at Xmas last year -- Orlando Vistana.  I made him sign up for PayPal so I could pay him that way.  In the end he was very happy because within minutes he had the money available!!

I feel like Paypal is pretty secure.  What ARE the safest ways to pay/receive payment?


----------



## dianeschlicht

Sally, here's some hugs and prayers for you too!    I think if the "feds" are onto this woman now, she will have a difficult time striking anyone again.  I just wish DVC could do something to stop her like take away a fruadulent membership etc.  

Sally, Dani, or Stacey, have any of you thought about contacting DVC about this?


----------



## Mich Mouse

I am just perplexed at the deviant behavior of some people!  Basic morals and character development were likely not instilled in these people. 

Can someone please PM me the name of these offenders?  I am planning on trying to rent some points and want to be absolutely sure that I am not delaing with the alleged perp.

Thanks


----------



## lizziepooh

I am so sorry this happened to you.  Thanks for sharing.  I just wonder how many other people have been taken by her.  I hope something can be done soon to stop her.   She has obviously discovered a good way to scam people and apparently has no plans to stop.


----------



## kimberh

I would like the names of the offenders PMed to me also. I don't understand why they are not blocked off of the disboard. I get a transfer from time to time and I think we all need to take care of each other.


----------



## alldiz

i too would also love someone to pm me with who this is....
i tried to rent points....around the same time.....
my 1st post....didn't go through with it.....glad i didnt
always wondered if my responses were this person..
thanks 
kerri


----------



## wdwfan1

I really liked the idea of fellow Disers sending you guys a few $$ to make up for your loss.   It would not hurt any of us, in fact it would make us feel like we could help--and you wouldn't be out the $$$.


----------



## tor

I suggested exposing the perpetrator several pages back but I was told it is against DIS policy and if you need to know if your dealing with this person you could pm JIMMIA and he would let you know if it was this individual or not


----------



## sillyguys

What a story.  I'm very sorry for the "victims" and I hope that it all works out for you.  I rented for the first time last May and had a very pleasant experience and easy transaction.  Much of my comfort level was due to the fact that I could call MS and ask that they confirm that the reservation was in my name (which I did many times).  However, from reading most of this thread, am I to understand that a renter can no longer make that type of call to MS?  If that's the case, that would be unfortunate because, as a renter, it really gave me peace of mind.  I'm taking the family back in May 07 and was hoping to rent points again.  However, reading this thread has made me very wary.  Thanks for sharing your stories.  Again, I hope that it all works out for you both.


----------



## InstImpres

tinks#1fan said:
			
		

> I've read this whole thread now but wish I had 3 weeks ago. I was also scammed by the same person "R".



I can't believe this.    

I hope things resolve (I know not quickly but at least positively) for all of you.  I also hope that everyone else continues to have successful transactions and doesn't get sucked in by this scammer!!


----------



## Squidrific

Can someone post a link to this Vogel thread that is being referred to?  I have looked for it, but haven't found it.


----------



## goofynme

Sally,

I was away on vacation and got back to have a message from a US postal Service inspector asking if my transaction with this woman went the way I desired it to and that if it did not I should call him (which I did).  

I got ripped off by her nearly a year ago and this is the first law enforcement officer that seems willing to help (I approached several and filed reports).

I may have been her first victim as it was last November and was $1,548.  I payed via paypal and once I got the sick feeling that something was not right I filed a Paypal complaint and the transaction was frozen.  Paypal investigated (a little bit) and made the decision that the transaction was for a non-tangible item and their guidelines state any complaint must be for tangible items which they define as physical.  In spite of my cutting and pasting the definition of tangible from websters online (_capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value_ ) Paypal wanted nothing to do with it and released the funds to the criminal.  (Iwill refrain from venting any further about Paypal's handling of this situation)

I still send her a PAypal invoice every 2 weeks for $1,548 hoping that somehow she will miraculously consider her actions and do the right thing (wishful thinking perhaps).  Ayway I would really like to make sure it is the same woman so please PM me...thanks!


----------



## StaceySaulino

Sally, 

I am so sorry this happened to you.  It really feels bad when someone does this to you, especially when you are a nice trust worthy person.  I also have two kids that I disappointed, as a result of the PP's actions (and my stupidity).  A 7 and 2 year old.  We are trying to work out when we'll be able to re-schedule, but no plans yet.  I hope you get some resolution.  I have no news on my end of anything positive, and I'm reallying hoping something breaks for someone soon!!  This woman should be ashamed of herself doing this to people with small kids, and to others for that matter.  My fear has always been she'll get someone with all their money saved up for the vacation of their dreams (and they wouldn't be able to re-schedule).  Anyway, Sally's post disturbed me.  Sorry for the ranting and raving.  Hope everyone has a good day, and hang in there Sally.  Things will get better.  You reap what you sow!!


----------



## Muushka

> Paypal investigated (a little bit) and made the decision that the transaction was for a non-tangible item and their guidelines state any complaint must be for tangible items which they define as physical



Oh yeah.  PayPal is really a Pal, huh?  I put PayPal in the same category as TicketMaster.


----------



## Olaf

I've been avoiding this thread, because it's so depressing.      Sally and Goofynme, I'm so sorry that you are also a victims of this pathetic woman.  How many does that make now?  I wonder how many others are out there?


----------



## InstImpres

goofynme said:
			
		

> I may have been her first victim as it was last November and was $1,548.




So is the count really now at 4 victims???


----------



## chris1gill

InstImpres said:
			
		

> So is the count really now at 4 victims???



I think it makes four just for this one woman right?  And she's still operating here on the boards? The whole thing is despicable...


----------



## robinb

Squidrific said:
			
		

> Can someone post a link to this Vogel thread that is being referred to?  I have looked for it, but haven't found it.


Here you go!
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=15032988#post15032988

Since at least one of the transactions went through ... albeit with problems ... I had been giving PP the benefit of the doubt. She just seemed more stupid than malicious. No more and boy, do I feel foolish. Jim ... you were right and I was wrong.

BTW, *goofynme*, did you contact the DIS moderation team when your deal went south?


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

I still wonder, what exactly, the contract-owner aunts involvement was.  Was she aware her niece was committing fraud and using her membership as the driving force?  If she was involved in any way, it would be nice if somehow the points could be seized and the proceeds from it used to pay the victims back.  I have felt all along there were many more people taken with this scam than the few that have come forward on the DIS.  It's hard to say how many places advertisements were placed. It's all very shocking...and sad.


----------



## OKWMom

Im so very sorry for all of you who have been victimized by this person.  I have been watching this thread carefully, hoping for good news for Dani and Stacey and was horrified this morning when two additional victims reported in.  I am saddened and sickened by the entire mess and hope the PP is found and her fraudulent activities are brought to a stop.


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

I was giving the benefit of the doubt to PP also but after the third person surfaced she's just a thief.  And if she's the same person back in 2005! Maybe its time to go after the owner of the contract. 

FWIW I think the person is blocked from renting at least under her two names. However I wonder what other names she posted under.


----------



## Olaf

doubletrouble_vb said:
			
		

> I was giving the benefit of the doubt to PP also but after the third person surfaced she's just a thief.  And if she's the same person back in 2005! Maybe its time to go after the owner of the contract.



I agree.  I keep wondering if anyone has contacted DVC?  I know they can't do anything about it, but I'd think they'd want to know that one of their members points were being used to defraud people.


----------



## BurkeTribe

sillyguys said:
			
		

> I rented for the first time last May and had a very pleasant experience and easy transaction.  Much of my comfort level was due to the fact that I could call MS and ask that they confirm that the reservation was in my name (which I did many times).  However, from reading most of this thread, am I to understand that a renter can no longer make that type of call to MS?  If that's the case, that would be unfortunate because, as a renter, it really gave me peace of mind.



Next time you rent, you can get rentee "comfort" by checking for deeds, etc., in the name/address of the person whose points you are renting at

http://www.comptroller.co.orange.fl.us/disclaimer.html

I have rented twice to great success, and I didn't know about the Orange County site until recently, so I thought calling MS a week before the trip was a comfort also (mainly from fear of computer screw-ups rather than rental scammers), but from now on I plan on checking the deeds before renting and calling the resort the day before our trips to be sure the machines/humanerror haven't glitched our trip . Which is what I do with regular reservations anyway ... paranoia, but better than arriving to "no room at the inn" 

And I personally won't pay anyone except the person/family who/which owns the points... so, sorry, second-cousin's uncle-in-law of the owner, if your name ain't on the deed, no deal


----------



## Scotch

BurkeTribe said:
			
		

> Next time you rent, you can get rentee "comfort" by checking for deeds, etc., in the name/address of the person whose points you are renting at
> 
> http://www.comptroller.co.orange.fl.us/disclaimer.html
> 
> I have rented twice to great success, and I didn't know about the Orange County site until recently, so I thought calling MS a week before the trip was a comfort also (mainly from fear of computer screw-ups rather than rental scammers), but from now on I plan on checking the deeds before renting and calling the resort the day before our trips to be sure the machines/humanerror haven't glitched our trip . Which is what I do with regular reservations anyway ... paranoia, but better than arriving to "no room at the inn"
> 
> And I personally won't pay anyone except the person/family who/which owns the points... so, sorry, second-cousin's uncle-in-law of the owner, if your name ain't on the deed, no deal



Unfortunately, the fact that someone actually owns the points -- in and of itself -- doesn't mean you are assured that you will arrive with "room at the inn."  The risk associated with renting from an unknown stranger is always there -- even if you received a copy of the reservation confirmation, the owner can cancel the reservation at any time prior to your checking in.  The inherent risk in these transaction is why you can save so much money renting from an owner vs. renting direct from Disney.  I just don't want people to be lulled under a false sense of security thinking that verifying ownership of the points is suffient guarantee.


----------



## greenban

Just hanging in there with our DIS family victims.

Hopefully you'll get some restitution, and 'PP' will get free room and board and 3 square meals a day in one of our correctional facilities.

You (the victims) have such class and dignity, I am so sorry you and your families were victimized.

 

-Tony


----------



## Scotch

Seriously, is there no interest (in my suggestion posted earlier) in making this thread a sticky on the Rent/Trade board as a warning for folks to be careful?  I just feel terrible when I keep seeing new and old victims popping up on this thread.  And I don't mean to use this thread as a warning only to folks who may encounter PP (under a new name), but just as a general precaution to take care when renting from strangers.  Nothing beats real life stories about the things that can and did go wrong.


----------



## BurkeTribe

Scotch said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the fact that someone actually owns the points -- in and of itself -- doesn't mean you are assured that you will arrive with "room at the inn."  The risk associated with renting from an unknown stranger is always there -- even if you received a copy of the reservation confirmation, the owner can cancel the reservation at any time prior to your checking in.  The inherent risk in these transaction is why you can save so much money renting from an owner vs. renting direct from Disney.  I just don't want people to be lulled under a false sense of security thinking that verifying ownership of the points is suffient guarantee.



 The chance of an owner being crazy enough to do that is probably about the same chance as an error in a regular over-the-phone reservation, or less even because of the inherent paper/proof/responsibility trail. We personally will always call the resort a day or two before our trips no matter how the reservation is made. The worry associated with owner/renters cancelling on rentees is minuscule compared to the worry about scammers who don't even own any points. And any owner/renter crazy enough to cancel points at the last minute that a rentee has paid for (and gotten a decent contract or even a letter of agreement on) is probably going to get zotted in court for much more than the original rental price.

Supply and demand drives the prices of point rental market in general more than scam fears, at least on the lower end rentals of say $1200 or less... although those fears may be effecting the amount of demand, of course 
But supply never seems to be lacking, at least not for the last couple of years for those renting well in advance(3-8 months).


----------



## Inkmahm

Muushka said:
			
		

> Oh yeah.  PayPal is really a Pal, huh?  I put PayPal in the same category as TicketMaster.


Paypal on its own won't save you necessarily but I pay my Paypal amounts due with a credit card.  If you go directly to the credit card and let them know you didn't get what you paid for, they will revers the charge.  At least they have in the past for me.


----------



## Muushka

Inkmahm said:
			
		

> Paypal on its own won't save you necessarily but I pay my Paypal amounts due with a credit card.  If you go directly to the credit card and let them know you didn't get what you paid for, they will revers the charge.  At least they have in the past for me.



Interesting. I wonder if the victim that used PayPal knew about this. There must be a time limit on this (dispute CC charge that month to reverse the charges).  Do you have to dispute this when the PayPal bill comes?  What if you don't know that you have been scammed by the time the CC bill comes?


----------



## diznyfanatic

Muushka said:
			
		

> Interesting. I wonder if the victim that used PayPal knew about this. There must be a time limit on this (dispute CC charge that month to reverse the charges).  Do you have to dispute this when the PayPal bill comes?  What if you don't know that you have been scammed by the time the CC bill comes?



First let me say that I'm truly sorry to see new victims in this story.  I will continue to hope for a positive outcome for all.

Generally, if you have used a CC to fund your PayPal payment, you have 60 days to dispute a charge directly with your CC company.  However, if you are using PayPal for the transaction, their internal policies require you to start the dispute with PayPal first.  

However, be forewarned that PayPal's "investigation" often times may exceed the 60 day requirement of your CC company and often times even if they rule in your favor, the scammer has emptied their account and PayPal is unable to recover your funds.  

You should therefore, keep a close eye on this 60 day dispute clock with your CC company while PayPal is performing their investigation and be prepared to initiate the dispute with your CC company just prior to this 60 day limit if you have not heard anything favorable from PayPal.

Also be aware that IF you do open a separate dispute with your CC company and circumvent PayPal, your PayPal account may be terminated but you are much more likely to recover your funds as PayPal generally loses when up against a credit card company.

If you have NOT used a CC card and simply used your PayPal account balance funds to pay for a transaction, you are stuck with following PayPal procedures only as this is basically like sending someone cash with slightly better protection.  

This is again, why it is so important for buyers purchasing *anything* involving a significant amount of money to do their homework first and know who or what they are dealing with *before* any money changes hands.

This is of course why PayPal and some sellers (not all as there is a limit on the amount of credit card transactions a specific type of PayPal account may accept) prefer that you only use the funds in your balance to pay for transactions as there is no way to do a chargeback like when funding the payment with a credit card.

Hope that helps.


----------



## doubletrouble_vb

Well that's kind of a plus and a minus for Paypal. Renting points for a near future trip using a credit card through Paypal would be a plus.  It's a minus for the owner because the client would have an option of disputing after the points have been used..and that would be a bit of a pain. What are the negatives to tying a credit card to your paypal account?


----------



## diznyfanatic

doubletrouble_vb said:
			
		

> Well that's kind of a plus and a minus for Paypal. Renting points for a near future trip using a credit card through Paypal would be a plus.  It's a minus for the owner because the client would have an option of disputing after the points have been used..and that would be a bit of a pain. What are the negatives to tying a credit card to your paypal account?



The most obvious is standard internet precaution and that is that if someone is successul in hacking into your PayPal account they then also have access to your credit card information.

The other negative is the potential for PayPal to rule against you in a dispute and if there are insufficient funds in your PayPal account, they would be able to pull the funds from your credit card or checking account if added.

The best advice I can offer when using PayPal is to open a separate bank account or charge account that is kept to a low balance or minimum and ONLY used for PayPal transactions and not tied to any of your primary checking or charge accounts.

When used this way and when users are fully knowledgeable about its use and risks, take the steps necessary to minimize loss by doing their homework *first*, PayPal is an easy and convenient way to send and receive funds.


----------



## dianeschlicht

I asked this a couple pages ago, and I'll ask it again...

Have ANY of the people scammed by this person contacted DVC?  I would think at the very least, DVC would be able to put a hold on the membership during the time of an investigation.  Perhaps even a legal representative or law enforcement official could be the ones who contact DVC.  This is a membership being used in a fruadulent way, and DVC should be able to do something about it.


----------



## CinderellaIam

Wow, I stayed away from this thread for a week because it was just too upsetting.  I came back to it today and just cannot believe that there are two more victims.  Has this person now finally been banned completely from the boards??  

To Sandy and Goofy4me, I am so, so sorry for your losses.  Stacy and Dani have been in my thoughts and prayers that resolution finds them, and I will now add you to that list.


----------



## Lasrnw

Our industry is one that is notoriously hit by scams and our trade associations have always told us to report them to the Federal Trade Commission. This is a different product than ours but the end result is the same - money changed hands and no benefit was received. Has anyone tried there?


----------



## Tinkerbellcrafter

BurkeTribe said:
			
		

> The chance of an owner being crazy enough to do that is probably about the same chance as an error in a regular over-the-phone reservation, or less even because of the inherent paper/proof/responsibility trail. We personally will always call the resort a day or two before our trips no matter how the reservation is made. The worry associated with owner/renters cancelling on rentees is minuscule compared to the worry about scammers who don't even own any points. And any owner/renter crazy enough to cancel points at the last minute that a rentee has paid for (and gotten a decent contract or even a letter of agreement on) is probably going to get zotted in court for much more than the original rental price.
> 
> Supply and demand drives the prices of point rental market in general more than scam fears, at least on the lower end rentals of say $1200 or less... although those fears may be effecting the amount of demand, of course
> But supply never seems to be lacking, at least not for the last couple of years for those renting well in advance(3-8 months).


 As new DVC members but Disney freaks, this thread has been very awful to read.  I think it is a horrible thing that this person has done and when I found out she disappointed two little ones, I felt like I had been kicked.  If this person is reading this, You should be completely ashamed of yourself, no matter how many problems are in your life.  

Question regarding transfer of points vs. haveing the person make the reservation for you...will this deed research work and how about a signed contract as was suggested to me in another thread.  We are planning a grand gathering for my Mother's 75th birthday and I intended to post on the R/T board for a large number of points....I would not want anyone to think that because I am new that I will be fraudulent.  

My thoughts and prayers go to those that were cheated!


----------



## Beca

CinderellaIam said:
			
		

> Wow, I stayed away from this thread for a week because it was just too upsetting.  I came back to it today and just cannot believe that there are two more victims.  Has this person now finally been banned completely from the boards??
> 
> To Sandy and Goofy4me, I am so, so sorry for your losses.  Stacy and Dani have been in my thoughts and prayers that resolution finds them, and I will now add you to that list.




Yikes!!  I stayed away too for the same reasons!!  I am SOOO sorry this has happened to you.  I noticed she has not posted under any of the two names I know for her.  If anyone knows any other names, please pm me...I like keeping up on this stuff!!!

  to all of you!!!


----------



## jmatias

This thread just seems to get worse.  I'm so sorry for those "hurt" by this loser.  

I truly believe in karma and someday/someway this person will have to pay her dues.

Sending prayers  

If someone could pm me too known alias I would appreciate it.

Jen


----------



## dvc at last !

I also find the thread upsetting.

I believe what goes around - comes around.


----------



## Sammie

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> I asked this a couple pages ago, and I'll ask it again...
> 
> Have ANY of the people scammed by this person contacted DVC?  I would think at the very least, DVC would be able to put a hold on the membership during the time of an investigation.  Perhaps even a legal representative or law enforcement official could be the ones who contact DVC.  This is a membership being used in a fruadulent way, and DVC should be able to do something about it.



DVC is not going to get involved at that level without a suponea. This is one of the reasons DVC stopped renters from calling MS to verify reservations. They are not going to get involved in private transactions. 

I am as sorry as everyone that this has happened, but the only time DVC is going to put a hold on a membership is when the member owes Disney money or a criminal charge has been made. 

The postal service is one of the best at following up on fraud, so hopefully they will catch her.


----------



## goudaman40

I know this may be a little off topic, but I am able to trade into DVC by going through our Interval International trades.  The reason why I bring this up, is I have rented / traded for our friends.  

I have considered doing trades through our timeshare boards we belong to, but I have been really skeptical on doing this.  We have been able to trade into Disney without a problem, but we are really flexible on our times, we always look for January - May then August - December.  We just booked our May trip and were able to book VWL for some friends of ours during the last part of May.

The reason why I bring this up, is this is an option for potential renters.  After having my own "scares" through e-bay (from both buyers and sellers) I am skeptical of dealing with strangers without being able to have a feedback reading as I do in e-bay.  My heart goes out to the victims and all I can say is this person will be caught and eventually receive the punishment they deserve.

I dealt with a seller on e-bay, bought a laptop and I was one of the "lucky" ones that received their laptop.  I feel sorry for the people that were messed over, but I can tell you this person is serving federal time and was brought to court for postal mail fraud and the people that were scammed did receive a portion of their funds back.  It was a Paypal, e-bay, square trade repayment arrangement.  It did take over 8 months for the person to get a court date, but this person and the people that were scammed did get justice.  

Here is wishing you pixie dust to a speedy and justified ending.

Goudaman40


----------



## dianeschlicht

> I know this may be a little off topic, but I am able to trade into DVC by going through our Interval International trades. The reason why I bring this up, is I have rented / traded for our friends.
> 
> I have considered doing trades through our timeshare boards we belong to, but I have been really skeptical on doing this. We have been able to trade into Disney without a problem, but we are really flexible on our times, we always look for January - May then August - December. We just booked our May trip and were able to book VWL for some friends of ours during the last part of May.


You need to be aware, that renting out II trades is against II rules.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Sammie said:
			
		

> DVC is not going to get involved at that level without a suponea. This is one of the reasons DVC stopped renters from calling MS to verify reservations. They are not going to get involved in private transactions.
> 
> I am as sorry as everyone that this has happened, but the only time DVC is going to put a hold on a membership is when the member owes Disney money or a criminal charge has been made.
> 
> The postal service is one of the best at following up on fraud, so hopefully they will catch her.


I'm sorry to hear that, but also not surprised.  Mail fraud is hard to catch too.  We once got "robbed" of about $500 when we purchased something on Ebay where the person listing the item absconded with the money, disappeared and never surfaced again.  His address and personal information listed with Ebay was all bogus.  We filed a mail fraud case, but they were never able to locate him.


----------



## mom2my3kids

I am so sorry. You have her name and info maybe small claims?


----------



## mom2my3kids

Also, I think there should be a link of the good sellers of points when someone has a good experience and a bad thread for the losers who scam. Like a feedback link. I rented my points from a honest seller last month and had absolutely no problems and paid everything up front via paypal.


----------



## OceanAnnie

I'm really sorry this person is continuing to steal.   I bet if the 2 other people that were ripped off joined in the investigation it would help with nabbing her. It would also provide more information and in the end a much stiffer legal penalty. The stiffer penalty is sorely needed, IMO.

Don't know how feasible it is, but it would be worthwhile!

Good luck to all that were dupped! I hope you get your money back and that justice will be served.


----------



## goudaman40

I know about renting out II trades is against II rules - what I am speaking of, we do guest certificates for friends & family and only rent out our points through the Fairfield boards that we belong to.

What I was saying, was that maybe this pp did something like this and became really greedy and you can probably trace this person back to e-bay scams also.


----------



## dianeschlicht

goudaman40 said:
			
		

> I know about renting out II trades is against II rules - what I am speaking of, we do guest certificates for friends & family and only rent out our points through the Fairfield boards that we belong to.
> 
> What I was saying, was that maybe this pp did something like this and became really greedy and you can probably trace this person back to e-bay scams also.


Okay, I see now.  I kind of doubt this person would be into an Ebay scam, since the points they own are not even really their own, but belong officially to an Aunt. (or at least that is the 'story').


----------



## mic_KY_mouses

I don't post much but I have been following this thread from day one.  Since that time I did a successful transfer to another DVC member using references both ways and payment by cashiers check.  Everything went without a hitch.  You can bet we were both more cautious because of these recent events.......   We just got back from WDW last night and I was so saddened to read these new developments.  My heart breaks for all the victims who have had what should be magical family fun turned into such a nightmare.  I just want you to know that mic_KY_mouses from Kentucky are sending you a


----------



## Alicnwondrln

this is getting crazy 2 more victims 
i hope you all get resolution


----------



## twinklebug

Not that it helps, but has it been verified that all 4 victims were scammed by the same person? It would be nice to know if there's only one person who's been working these boards.


----------



## JimMIA

twinklebug said:
			
		

> Not that it helps, but has it been verified that all 4 victims were scammed by the same person? It would be nice to know if there's only one person who's been working these boards.


Yes.  The same person is involved in these four cases, plus two more unsuccessful attempts that we know of.  Your question is important, because it's important to remember that this is one bad apple in a huge barrel of good people.    

Sally's case is the most recent one we are aware of, happening on October 19 or thereabouts.  We were aware of the _situation_, because it happened right in the middle of something we were doing, but we didn't know the _identity of the victim _ until Sally posted.  Hopefully, she'll be able to prevent the cashing of the money order and things will work out.

I believe the person is no longer attempting to rent DVC reservations.  *If anyone is aware of any rental attempts after October 19*, we would sure love to hear about them.  I won't go into why, but that would be important information for us to have.

***
On another note, I've offered to confirm the identity of the person doing these rentals to anyone considering renting points.  If someone is involved in a rental transaction, and they want to PM me the real name of the person they're dealing with, I will confirm if that's the bad person.  Screen names are of no value, because anyone can create as many as they want and this person has used several screen names.

However, I am not going to post any names or screen names -- that would be against DIS rules, and would also possibly be libelous --nor am I going to PM or email anyone's name, for the same reasons.


----------



## JimMIA

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> I asked this a couple pages ago, and I'll ask it again...
> 
> Have ANY of the people scammed by this person contacted DVC?  I would think at the very least, DVC would be able to put a hold on the membership during the time of an investigation.  Perhaps even a legal representative or law enforcement official could be the ones who contact DVC.  This is a membership being used in a fruadulent way, and DVC should be able to do something about it.


DVC has been contacted.  I was not a party to those conversations, so I can't tell you any more than that.  But suffice to say DVC is aware of the problem.  I don't know what, if any, action DVC has taken...or even could take.  

As Sammie correctly noted, to _compel_ DVC to do anything would require some kind of legal process.  

Keep in mind, however, that freezing a DVC account would offer zero protection to potential renters.  In most of these cases, there never was any call to MS or any ressie made, so shutting off the DVC account wouldn't really help.


----------



## Inkmahm

Muushka said:
			
		

> Interesting. I wonder if the victim that used PayPal knew about this. There must be a time limit on this (dispute CC charge that month to reverse the charges).  Do you have to dispute this when the PayPal bill comes?  What if you don't know that you have been scammed by the time the CC bill comes?


There is no paypal bill, the money is transferred immediately and charged to your credit card immediately.  As long as it's a service that you didn't get, I think the cc will still help you get your money back.

The one time I considered disputing the credit card charge, I talked to someone at paypal.  She reminded me that I agreed to not reverse charges through the credit card directly when I opened the paypal account,  but that it was still  my choice whether I wanted to take that route or not  *wink* *wink*

As for getting money back for services not provided, I've been successful at that with my VISA card, too.  I put a $500 deposit down in early February 2004  for a wedding photographer who went out of business in June of that year.  I found out and filed a request for my $500 back in July, so that was 5 months later.  The $500 was credited to my account almost immediately.


----------



## Parkhopper13

I have also followed this thread from the beginning and wish you all luck on a potential resolutions. Just FYI, I have rented points and do my best to be very forward and open with the renter, even giving them my telephone number.  I want them to feel comfortable and handle all issues/concerns quickly and efficiently.  If you are renting and you get a bad feeling from the person you are renting from...don't rent from that person.  There are too many honest, helpful DVC members out there...and you might get scammed.


----------



## Olaf

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Keep in mind, however, that freezing a DVC account would offer zero protection to potential renters.  In most of these cases, there never was any call to MS or any ressie made, so shutting off the DVC account wouldn't really help.



True.  But, it might put some pressure on Auntie to give her DN a swift kick in the you know what.  I wonder if Auntie is even aware of what her DN is up to?  I also wonder about her legal liability in this whole mess.


----------



## dianeschlicht

Olaf said:
			
		

> True.  But, it might put some pressure on Auntie to give her DN a swift kick in the you know what.  I wonder if Auntie is even aware of what her DN is up to?  I also wonder about her legal liability in this whole mess.


I have thought the same thing.  Heck, I've wondered if there really is an "auntie".


----------



## Sammie

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to hear that, but also not surprised.  Mail fraud is hard to catch too.  We once got "robbed" of about $500 when we purchased something on Ebay where the person listing the item absconded with the money, disappeared and never surfaced again.  His address and personal information listed with Ebay was all bogus.  We filed a mail fraud case, but they were never able to locate him.



I understand completely and no one is more distressed about this than me. I have been a victim of idenity fraud and as bad as losing money to someone is, nothing is worse than someone pretending to be you and then scamming others. It was horrible and I am not even sure at this point if they are not still doing it.

My info was stolen from a business website personal records, and they took my info, stole others credit cards, after I canceled mine and they were using my name and personal info to scam others. 

The name known in this case might not be real, her Aunt might be bogus, there truly is any number of scenarios.

I had to involve the FBI, postal authorities and the Secret Service, as these scammer had an international scam going on. 

After they sold my personal info and hundreds of others from this business, they then shared it to others scammers on a Scammers blog. Only because some good person shared that info did we even know such a place exisited. And PayPal was a active participant in the scam, in my opinion, as they would do nothing to stop it. They could care less who was getting ripped off, as long as they were making money from it. 

So I wish the best to all involved.


----------



## UKDEB

There is so much I could say about this whole ordeal, but little that would add anything of benefit.  I am struggling to understand, though, why an attempt can not be made to prevent this person from perpertrating these frauds on the DIS.  People have been banned from these boards for far less.  If the posting guidelines need to be changed to include fraud, then why would that not happen?  I've been a member here for many years and I think I know enough about Pete's integrity to be certain he would not wish to condone this.


----------



## JimMIA

UKDEB said:
			
		

> I am struggling to understand, though, why an attempt can not be made to prevent this person from perpertrating these frauds on the DIS.


What specific steps would you have the DIS take?  And how do you know they haven't _already_ taken them?

There are real issues here.  The DIS response is not one of them.


----------



## Sammie

I agree with Jim, I don't think the DIS can do much more than they do.

Even if the user named is banned, the person scamming can change it and come back again with another user name. Even banning an ISP is not necessarily going to stop someone that is determined. 

I think the best that one can expect of the DIS, is what they have done. They have made it very obvious this is a personal agreement between two parties and they have listed all the info that could possibly be listed to assist in a safe transaction.

But what everyone that has never been scammed is not realizing , there is still only so much one can do to protect themselves. I am sure those affected have learned alot about the red flags in this situation and will recognize them if they should arise again. Hopefully others have learned from it also.

But many times one can not avoid all the risks even then and must try to make sure that they are covering thier participation by making it is safe as possible and even then there is still an element of trust involved and on the other side an element of risk.

While there are surely more honest transactions being completed than fradulent ones, the only truly fail safe method is to avoid the situation completely.


----------



## UKDEB

I do agree with Sammie that there isn't any sure way to prevent this sort of thing happening, hence my use of the word 'attempt'.  



			
				JimMIA said:
			
		

> And how do you know they haven't _already_ taken them?


I don't know, but I would like to.  I apologise if my tone comes across as judgemental, Jim - it certainly wasn't written that way.  My question wasn't intended at a criticism, I'm just puzzled.  From some posts earlier in the thread, I got the impression that no action was being taken because the perpertrator wasn't breaking any board guidelines.  Perhaps I misunderstood.  

Maybe steps are being taken behind the scenes, but with new victims popping up and in the absence of any statements confirming that to be the case (I haven't read the thread beyond page 27 so I could well have missed some dialogue), it seems to the casual observer (me   ) that nothing is being done.  As I said, having gained a little insight into the characters of those running these boards, I'm struggling to understand why that would be.


----------



## rantnnravin

i've been watching this thread since day one and it has taken me about that long to scoop my jaw off the floor and compose myself enough to post.

First and foremost-- to all who have been HURT by this unscrupulous person. I am so sorry this happened to you and your families. I don't what i would do if the vacation money i had scrimped together had been stolen. I have to commend and applaud you for your integrity and attitudes throughout this ordeal. God will certainly step in where you have stepped back.

UKDEB-i suppose what we view as "inaction" on the part of the DIS and others can be likened to what intelligence agencies do each day that we don't know about - and I, for one, don't want to know about it - for example, who wants to tell the terrorists what we're doing to stop them? That's how they got control of those planes in the first place; they knew exactly how everyone was going to react and planned accordingly.

I check this thread each day in hopes of some sort of resolution for those hurt. And, I agree with Sammie in that I think we all need to be cautious in all aspects of our transactions and such. A pinch of prevention...


----------



## dianeschlicht

UKDEB, we cannont asume NOTHING is being done.  As others have stated, baning IPs and usenames is a bandaid fix at best.  Unscrupulous people will get around ANY lock you put on a door.  I think just the fact that this thread is allowed, and that it stays at the top of the page is action enough for the boards.   The behind the scenes things being done by the victims and helpers should remain secret until and unless a resolution happens.  No need to jeopardize the outcome for us nosey Nellies.


----------



## Just Giddy

I have been reading all of these posts and it makes me just sick. I have never cought anything from E-Bay becuase of these type of things. Pay pall protects the seller and only the seller. 
I'm wondering though why no has set up a "escrow" type of business that accepts the $ from the seller and the proof of "item" delivered, be it a reservation or UPS deliver receipt for a physical item item. This would protect both parties and I would pay a transaction fee for the secutiry.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Just Giddy said:
			
		

> I have been reading all of these posts and it makes me just sick. I have never cought anything from E-Bay becuase of these type of things. Pay pall protects the seller and only the seller.
> I'm wondering though why no has set up a "escrow" type of business that accepts the $ from the seller and the proof of "item" delivered, be it a reservation or UPS deliver receipt for a physical item item. This would protect both parties and I would pay a transaction fee for the secutiry.



There are escrow services for these types of purchases.  It's just that the good sellers don't see why they can't have their money in their hand when they sell the reservation.  I could see where an honest owner wouldn't want to have the extra cost of an escrow service, plus have to wait until the person completed the vacation until they got their money.  Travel agents don't have to wait for their funds.


----------



## JimMIA

UKDEB said:
			
		

> I apologise if my tone comes across as judgemental, Jim - it certainly wasn't written that way.  My question wasn't intended at a criticism, I'm just puzzled.  From some posts earlier in the thread, I got the impression that no action was being taken because the perpertrator wasn't breaking any board guidelines.  Perhaps I misunderstood.


First of all, I didn't take your comments as being even slightly judgemental.  A lot of people are rightfully concerned about this situation and have legitimate questions. 

No, you didn't misunderstand, but this thread has been going on for almost a month and in that time a lot has changed.  At the time of the post you reference, it was not clear whether the person everyone was dealing with was just messed up...or a crook.  No posting guidelines had been violated, and nothing should have been done _at that point_.  Later, when it became clear that the person was not to be trusted, the DIS took appropriate steps to deal with the new reality. 

One question we hear a lot is "Why was this person not banned?"  First of all, I don't know (nor do I care) whether the person has been banned or not.  Banning is a tool of questionable value in this situation anyway.  It is always possible for someone to just assume a new identity and this person has used several screen names.  In addition, if banning the person works you have lost a valuable channel of communications with that person.  So, to me, banning was always a concept that had more downside than upside in this particular situation.



> Maybe steps are being taken behind the scenes, but with new victims popping up and in the absence of any statements confirming that to be the case (I haven't read the thread beyond page 27 so I could well have missed some dialogue), it seems to the casual observer (me   ) that nothing is being done.


That's an easy mistake to make, but sometimes you just have to have faith that good people will do the right thing.  Just to give you an idea of the quality of the DIS response, I'll give you one example.  

Dani's first post was at 9:38 AM, October 14.  Prior to that post, she had contacted Doc to get some guidance to be sure she was not violating any posting guidelines, but Doc had no inkling of anything other than Dani's individual situation ...which initially looked like a communications problem.  At 11:30 AM, I notified Doc that this person was the same person I was aware of being involved in an ongoing issue in another rental.  At 11:54 AM, Doc replied to Dani and I with a list of steps he had _*already taken * _ to help try to resolve the problem.  

Doc was on vacation at OKW at the time.  I think 24 minutes is pretty good response time for a guy on vacation, and that has been typical of the DIS's response throughout.  As I said above, there are some real issues here, but the DIS's response is not one of them.





> Maybe steps are being taken behind the scenes, but with new victims popping up...


Well, as much as I commend those who came to this late and have waded through every word here, I think you have to realize there are a lot of things behind the scenes that have not been -- and probably will not be -- posted on the DIS.  The devil IS in the details, and the details are not here.

As far as victims...  This saga started on October 13 and popped up on the DIS on October 14.

Early afternoon on October 16, I received a PM from Stacey, gave her some suggestions, and by late afternoon we had clear evidence that her supposed reservation was bogus from the start.  At that point, Dani was waiting for a promised refund of her money (which never came), so it was not until we established the truth in Stacey's rental that we had a legitimate _*criminal* _ case for the police.  Police departments are not collection agencies, and if we had approached the police without a real case, they would have correctly referred the victims to a private attorney.

Local law enforcement in PA and NY were brought into the picture on October 17.  As a result of their involvement, the post office refused to cash Sally's money order on October 19. Hopefully, the intervention of local law enforcement will result in Sally not losing her money. 

We were aware of the post office confrontation when it happened on 10/19, but we didn't know the identity of the victim until she posted here.  Also on October 19, another victim (goofynme) posted the story of a fraud he'd suffered a year ago, by the same person.  So that's four, and there have been two other attempts that I'm aware of.

Since the incident on October 19, however, I am not aware of any further attempts at fraudulent rentals.  I can't get into the details, but that date is important for a number of reasons, and *if anyone has any knowledge of attempts after October 19*, any information about those attempts would be very helpful.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Jim - your post was very well said and very accurate.  Unfortunalety, we still have no new news.  Much has been done, and many within the DIS community have been extremely helpful to facilitate a possible resolution.  I can't thank everyone enough, and of course I'll let everyone know when something happens - good or bad.


----------



## dumbo71

I'm sure I'm not the first to sugest this but here goes anyway:  We NEED JimMia as part of the Dis mod. team.  If he hasn't been approached by the Dis already, now is the time.  His advice is excellent and he goes above and beyond to help.

Here's to JimMia  

To the victims, I can only hope for a swift resolution and for no further victims.


----------



## Mich Mouse

Can anyone sum this up in a nutshell?


----------



## UKDEB

Jim, thank you - that's precisely the kind of detail I had been hoping for and which helps to put things into context and to set my mind at rest that this isn't being ignored.


----------



## cobbler

Wow, I am just shocked to see 2 more victims in this scam.

I really hope this person is sent to prison.


----------



## skibum

Kudos to Jim and Doc!!!
Glad you are on our team!  
Looking forward to some sort of resolution.


----------



## DisneyFunfor3

I've been following this for quite some time but was out of town for a while so now I'm back and am peeling my chin off the floor...4 times this awful person has done this (or attempted).  I'm so very sorry for all who were duped by this awful person.  I honestly hope that the authorities deal with her very harshly and I do wish the best to all who found themselves tangled in this mess.

Fortunately, I'm a believer in what goes around comes around (or however that saying goes)...anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I think the awful person will get hers (since the posts indicate she is a woman)...and I do believe that her victims will have wonderful things showered on them in the future.

Good luck to all who have been wronged!


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Mich Mouse said:
			
		

> Can anyone sum this up in a nutshell?



Basically there was someone on the Rent/Trade Board that was offering points for rent that scammed several people.  She would have the money wired through Western Union, or any other method where there wasn't very much accountability, and then was very difficult to get a hold of again.  After several stall tactics (moved, death in the family, etc), it didn't take the victims too long to realize that she had no intention of making any reservations.  As a matter of fact, she personally doesn't even own any points (however, she did follow through on at least one rental transaction that we know of using her aunt's points).  Jim's latest post is one of the best summaries to date.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

dumbo71 said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'm not the first to sugest this but here goes anyway:  We NEED JimMia as part of the Dis mod. team.



Be careful...Jim might have to take a minute and decide whether he wants to thank you -- or slap you!  Just kidding of course.   

I think Jim has certainly earned our respect throughout this process and I for one would be happy to see him as part of the DIS Team if the offer is ever extended!


----------



## tinks#1fan

As one of the scammed, I also just want to thank Jim for all he's done. It's a great benefit to have someone like him on our side. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!


----------



## gottagodisney

Here's a question for all of you seasoned folks...

If you look on the Orange Cty register should the owners of every DVC timeshare be on there?  The reason I ask is that we had a successfully rented this past year (just 1 nt.), received a reservation in our name, although when I looked up the owners by name...Orange Ct. doesn't have anyone listed by that name.  There were quite a few properties listed with the same surname but no matches on first names.  

The reason I inquired about this in the first place is because of this thread.  Just curious who this perpatrators is.  I thought I was being careful as could be with rental but still it makes you wonder.  I never would have done a western union, but now if I rent in the future,  I wonder if I need to match names up on the Orange Ct. site?


----------



## InstImpres

gottagodisney said:
			
		

> Here's a question for all of you seasoned folks...
> 
> If you look on the Orange Cty register should the owners of every DVC timeshare be on there?  The reason I ask is that we had a successfully rented this past year (just 1 nt.), received a reservation in our name, although when I looked up the owners by name...Orange Ct. doesn't have anyone listed by that name.  There were quite a few properties listed with the same surname but no matches on first names.



If they are a Hilton Head or Vero owner they would not show up there (but could still make WDW ressie at the 7 month booking window) or if they are strange like me with a hypenated name, it throws off the system


----------



## pirateparrot

gottagodisney said:
			
		

> Here's a question for all of you seasoned folks...
> 
> If you look on the Orange Cty register should the owners of every DVC timeshare be on there? The reason I ask is that we had a successfully rented this past year (just 1 nt.), received a reservation in our name, although when I looked up the owners by name...Orange Ct. doesn't have anyone listed by that name. There were quite a few properties listed with the same surname but no matches on first names.


 
Are all DVC resorts in Orange County? I thought parts fo Disney property were in two different counties.


----------



## WebmasterDoc

Yes, all of the current WDW DVC resorts are in Orange County. Portions of WDW itself are in Osceola County, but no DVC resorts are located there.


----------



## Plutofan

You can look up Vero contracts if you go to the Indian River County Comptroller's website.  I am not sure if you can find anything on Hilton Head if you go to a site for SC.


----------



## WebmasterDoc

Here is a link the Beaufort County online records. HH owners will be listed here.


----------



## Sammie

WebmasterDoc said:
			
		

> Here is a link the Beaufort County online records. HH owners will be listed here.



Ours is not listed.


----------



## gottagodisney

Thanks for the responses.  Maybe these folks own at Vero or HH?  Disney would list the official legal owner name  only on the reservation-right?


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

The owners name and address should be on the confirmation that gets mailed.  A little further down it should have your name as the person the ressie is confirmed for.


----------



## Plutofan

Sammie said:
			
		

> Ours is not listed.



Ours is not listed either


----------



## BCVOwner2002

T.E. Yeary said:
			
		

> OK, I can't stand anymore of this.  This board has been really good to me and our organization so I am going to make this offer:
> 
> I currently have 224 pts available for use. I will be happy to make them available to the 2 people who were left out in the cold. You can have these points for $5 per point. Since you've already put up half of the money, then you can use your remainder for these and go on that "MAGICAL" vacation.  If these are not enough points for the 2 victims, I should have some more coming in the next week or so.
> 
> Please PM me and I will give you my home phone # so we can do the deal.  You will NOT have to go to Western Union! You can send me a personal check after I make your reservations.
> 
> Happy "magical" vacationing,
> Tom



Tom - This is so nice of you!  I don't know how this person can sleep at night knowing that they have tried to destroy people's trust.  It just amazes me that someone would act this way.  I have only transferred once and it was through a friend of a friend who needed points and I happened to have extra that year.  The person sent me the full amount via check and I transferred the points into their account.  Everything went smooth but I don't plan to make a habit of this.  I know someone who rented points and the people they rented to gave the trip to high school grads and caused damage to the room!  Guess who got the bill for the damage?  It's just not worth it to me.


----------



## chris1gill

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> Be careful...Jim might have to take a minute and decide whether he wants to thank you -- or slap you!  Just kidding of course.
> 
> I think Jim has certainly earned our respect throughout this process and I for one would be happy to see him as part of the DIS Team if the offer is ever extended!




I agree, Jim should be part of the DIS Team, it's his helpful spirit that makes him a logical choice


----------



## tor

Orange county has my BWV but does not have my SSR and I have owned it for more than a year


----------



## InstImpres

Sorry to go OT but I thought this was interesting...
I went to post on craigslist for the first time in probably six months, I got this pop up warning:


AVOID SCAMS BY DEALING LOCALLY -- IGNORE DISTANT BUYERS (SCAMMERS):
  1) Most cashier's check or money orders offered to craigslist sellers are COUNTERFEIT -- cashing them can lead to financial ruin
  2) Requests that you wire money abroad via Western Union or moneygram for any reason are invariably SCAMS
  3) Learn more on our current scams page -- and avoid scammers by dealing locally with buyers you can meet in person! 

Sounds like word is getting around in general


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Good to see some of these websites giving a little more guidance to people regarding scams.  I always think what a shame it is that so many people use their brains to think of something dishonest when they could be using all that grey matter to do some good instead!!!


----------



## tinks#1fan

We just spoke with the postal investigator who is checking out this pp. We found out she was successful in cashing our money order. He told us it was essentially done. This person is homeless, she lives out of garbage bags, and has no roots to any one place. I don't know if she, at one point, had a DVC and ran into hard times and sold it since she has had one successful transaction with the Vogels. But now she has nothing. The investigator said he is still working on it, but won't be able to get anyone to take her to trial since the victims are spread out all over the country and because she has nothing, so it's not like she'll ever be able to repay us all. There is also the issue that to their knowledge the total of the scams is only around $3000 so do we really, as a nation, want to foot the bill for a trial and jail time for that small amount?

I know to those of us who she victimized the amount she stole is enormous, but to the government it's not enough to pursue. 

I just want you all to know that while this happened to me, I still generally trust my fellow man, although I tread a little more cautiously now. I did turn around and rent from another owner immediatly after this happened, and have actually recommended renting points to a few of my Disney lover pals. 

Thank you all for your support. I hope Stacey, Dani, and the other victim can move on both financially and emotionally after all this. 

God Bless America and God Bless You All!!!
Sally


----------



## twinklebug

tinks#1fan said:
			
		

> We just spoke with the postal investigator who is checking out this pp. We found out she was successful in cashing our money order. He told us it was essentially done. .... to their knowledge the total of the scams is only around $3000 so do we really, as a nation, want to foot the bill for a trial and jail time for that small amount?
> 
> I know to those of us who she victimized the amount she stole is enormous, but to the government it's not enough to pursue.



Oh no   

This just ticks me off. I am so sorry to hear the system seems to be working in her favor. I guarentee you that this person is NOT living out of garbage bags. She has internet access that she has regular access to to conduct these scams ... she's living somewhere.

I don't understand why catching a $3000 crook be any less important than catching a liquor store thief who gets away with less money? How is this different? To her, this is a source of income, it's just a matter of time before she strikes again.


----------



## Sammie

twinklebug said:
			
		

> Oh no
> 
> This just ticks me off. I am so sorry to hear the system seems to be working in her favor. I guarentee you that this person is NOT living out of garbage bags. She has internet access that she has regular access to to conduct these scams ... she's living somewhere.
> 
> I don't understand why catching a $3000 crook be any less important than catching a liquor store thief who gets away with less money? How is this different? To her, this is a source of income, it's just a matter of time before she strikes again.



You know it is one thing to be upset about this; everyone else is too. But your first paragraph is not based on any evidence. She had access when she started this scam, not sure that means she has an address now. Unless you are personally involved as are Sally and the others not sure you know for sure the facts. They do. 

As to being homeless and having net access, libraries everywhere provide it. As to your comparing the robbery there is a huge difference. Even though Sally, Dani, and Stacey were scammed, they were not "robbed" at gun point, they willingly entered into this agreement with the PP, a huge difference over a liquor store robbery.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Sally, 

I know how hard this can be, as I was also scammed by the same person.  I was really hoping that your money order was not cashed and the authorities were some how able to stop her.  Try to hang in there.  Things will get better, and I believe you will receive a good gift for all your troubles - somehow.  Focus on your upcoming trip.  I'm sure the eight year old will be extremely excited an you will all have a wonderful time.  How can you not in that fabulous place?  

Have a good day and I'm very sorry.  

Stacey


----------



## dianeschlicht

tinks#1fan said:
			
		

> We just spoke with the postal investigator who is checking out this pp. We found out she was successful in cashing our money order. He told us it was essentially done. This person is homeless, she lives out of garbage bags, and has no roots to any one place. I don't know if she, at one point, had a DVC and ran into hard times and sold it since she has had one successful transaction with the Vogels. But now she has nothing. The investigator said he is still working on it, but won't be able to get anyone to take her to trial since the victims are spread out all over the country and because she has nothing, so it's not like she'll ever be able to repay us all. There is also the issue that to their knowledge the total of the scams is only around $3000 so do we really, as a nation, want to foot the bill for a trial and jail time for that small amount?
> 
> I know to those of us who she victimized the amount she stole is enormous, but to the government it's not enough to pursue.
> 
> I just want you all to know that while this happened to me, I still generally trust my fellow man, although I tread a little more cautiously now. I did turn around and rent from another owner immediatly after this happened, and have actually recommended renting points to a few of my Disney lover pals.
> 
> Thank you all for your support. I hope Stacey, Dani, and the other victim can move on both financially and emotionally after all this.
> 
> God Bless America and God Bless You All!!!
> Sally


Oh no!!  Okay, so are you saying the Post office doesn't want to pursue this or you don't?  The postal fraud division processes far smaller claims than this, so why not these?


----------



## uwate

Hi all,
Read about 15 or 20 pages of this thread. Damn crooks   

I didnt get to read the end but I am guessing that this thief never made good on the money?

Has there ever been a thread that compiles a list of transactions that went smooth? I know on this other board I frequent, there is a buy/sell part of the board and they run a sticky that you can look at the transactions that people have done. Everything is voluntary and you have to also watch out for shill posting and do your homework still, but at least it gives you a chance to see if your seller has done any other reported transactions.


----------



## BurkeTribe

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> Oh no!!  Okay, so are you saying the Post office doesn't want to pursue this or you don't?  The postal fraud division processes far smaller claims than this, so why not these?



I think most (not all, but most) of the small dollar cases which the USPS pursues are items stolen directly from someone's mailbox (they will pursue these because they need to uphold the sanctity of the mailbox), and not cases of someone sending a PMO and not getting what they ordered. This case is not really easy for the USPS to pursue because the victim willingly sent the PMO to the accused scammer, and it becomes a case of she said/she said atthis time to the USPS... more for civil court at this point. The USPS probably has or should have her name on a watch list, though, according to previous posts, at least for her area, so if she starts trying to cash any more PMOs....

If it can be shown that the alleged scammer never has had  intention of making good on the deal(s), then criminal charges will be more likely (if not already). The best that can probably be done for most of the cases against her at this time is to get/keep the pressure on her through the local PD, letting her know that if she doesn't make good, eventually she'll end up in court/jail, with future wages garnished.


----------



## manning

I may be wrong but my take is intent has been established.


----------



## PoohBear88

I'm so sorry to hear about all this!  Dani, Stacy, goofynme and Sally--I'm so sorry for your losses.  I hardly ever get the chance anymore to join these forums and when I do, I see this.  A little sprinkle of pixie dust to you all!

I know this was mentioned somewhere in this thread but not sure what was said in the end about this but is it possible to set up a type of referral report like how there are room reports for the Disney Cruise Line?  I'm sure that would help those looking to rent points.


----------



## WDWguru

uwate said:
			
		

> Has there ever been a thread that compiles a list of transactions that went smooth?



No, because outside of those mentioned on this thread, pretty much every transaction has gone smoothly. That's what makes this all the more shocking! Many renters do have references if you ask them privately, but there is no feedback thread that I know of on the DIS.


----------



## crisi

twinklebug said:
			
		

> Oh no
> 
> This just ticks me off. I am so sorry to hear the system seems to be working in her favor. I guarentee you that this person is NOT living out of garbage bags. She has internet access that she has regular access to to conduct these scams ... she's living somewhere.
> 
> I don't understand why catching a $3000 crook be any less important than catching a liquor store thief who gets away with less money? How is this different? To her, this is a source of income, it's just a matter of time before she strikes again.



In my experience, they don't bother with liquor store theives, car theives or check theives either (uncle's liquor store robbed, they even know who did it, my car stolen, my house broken into and stuff stolen, and my checkbook stolen - they didn't bother for any of these).


----------



## rogerram

Sammie said:
			
		

> As to your comparing the robbery there is a huge difference. Even though Sally, Dani, and Stacey were scammed, they were not "robbed" at gun point, they willingly entered into this agreement with the PP, a huge difference over a liquor store robbery.


your right about there being a huge difference. It is worse than a store robbery from a personal standpoint. If you are a clerk and are robbed, unless you own the store, the only thing you loose is the immediate threat of the robbery and answering questions later. If you are stolen from, this person has taken from you what you worked hard for, in this senario, you own the store. This is the same as someone coming in your house and taking it from you. It is much more personal and much worse because it happened to what you own. Everything in your life is yours and unless you agree to give it away, then this is worse, whether it is your life, family, money, car...everything that is yours. These people willing sent money in a deal to obtain something back and they were robbed from their personal assets. A different form of gunpoint, much more personal.


----------



## Geezer

I just saw this, and I want to express my support to the people who have been harmed in this thread, and say that I have never rented out points, and never intend to, but I sure hope this person gets caught and gets the legal book thrown at her.


----------



## noname70

Geezer said:
			
		

> I just saw this, and I want to express my support to the people who have been harmed in this thread, and say that I have never rented out points, and never intend to, but I sure hope this person gets caught and gets the legal book thrown at her.



Ditto-it hurts those of us who do rent legitimately.


----------



## Sammie

rogerram said:
			
		

> your right about there being a huge difference. It is worse than a store robbery from a personal standpoint. If you are a clerk and are robbed, unless you own the store, the only thing you loose is the immediate threat of the robbery and answering questions later. If you are stolen from, this person has taken from you what you worked hard for, in this senario, you own the store. This is the same as someone coming in your house and taking it from you. It is much more personal and much worse because it happened to what you own. Everything in your life is yours and unless you agree to give it away, then this is worse, whether it is your life, family, money, car...everything that is yours. These people willing sent money in a deal to obtain something back and they were robbed from their personal assets. A different form of gunpoint, much more personal.



Believe me I will take a scam any day to armed robbery regardless of who owns what. Staring down the barrel of a gun pointed at you is very personal. Nothing is more precious than life.


----------



## simzac

Sammie said:
			
		

> Believe me I will take a scam any day to armed robbery regardless of who owns what. Staring down the barrel of a gun pointed at you is very personal. Nothing is more precious than life.


Agreed.


----------



## JimMIA

Just for a quick update...there is no _new_ news, nor was any expected during this holiday week.  

I was up in Albany, NY earlier in the week -- but no...I did NOT steal the wheels off anyone's grocery cart!  I actually meant to, but just ran out of time.


----------



## Cindi0511

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Just for a quick update...there is no _new_ news, nor was any expected during this holiday week.
> 
> I was up in Albany, NY earlier in the week -- but no...I did NOT steal the wheels off anyone's grocery cart!  I actually meant to, but just ran out of time.




You're too much!  Thanks for the update ... non-update, etc! There are so many of us following this you must be inundated with requests for updates. We appreciate it!


----------



## JimMIA

Cindi0511 said:
			
		

> You're too much!  Thanks for the update ... non-update, etc! There are so many of us following this you must be inundated with requests for updates. We appreciate it!


 No, actually I think we all understand that any resolution of this is going to take time.  I have not been inundated, and as far as I know, neither have Stacey or Dani.  

I've had a few requests for info on the person, but so far none of the names that people are renting from have been the bad person...which is good.


----------



## the who #3

i feel so badly for you, as your initial effort was an honest attempt to make someone else happy and use your dvc in a productive manner.

my daughter and i were once scammed out of $18,000.00 by a family friend, who was also a federal officer.  we could not do anything about it because another family member was involved, and that person ended up making money on the scam.  as it is the scammer is still a friend of the other family member and has never even apologized.  the money was from my husbands life insurance. this was about 15 yrs ago.  not a very nice thing to do to a widow and her daughter.  sorry that was  

from now on i will give of what i have to someone i feel is deserving but i will not get involved in any deals unless i have total face to face control.   this makes it hard to do business with people from afar.  if that person is still lurking around the dvcs if hope they get caught. ::cop:


----------



## Tikitoi

DMKEDM (or anyone else), was this ever resolved?  I have read with great empathy a lot of pages of this thread but have not lately, so if I missed it can anyone point it out to me.  Thanks


----------



## Chuck S

Not yet.  I think the OP is at WDW at the moment.


----------



## Tikitoi

Chuck S said:
			
		

> Not yet.  I think the OP is at WDW at the moment.


Thanks for the response.


----------



## booger73

Actually, DMKEDM is at Disney, I believe - her trip story is at the DVC-Mousecellaneous section


----------



## JimMIA

Tikitoi said:
			
		

> DMKEDM (or anyone else), was this ever resolved?  I have read with great empathy a lot of pages of this thread but have not lately, so if I missed it can anyone point it out to me.  Thanks


 No.  It has not been resolved.


----------



## drakethib

I keep checking this thread and hoping to see that the PP has come forward and done the right thing.

I am afraid we may never see this day


----------



## UConnJack

drakethib said:
			
		

> I keep checking this thread and hoping to see that the PP has come forward and done the right thing.



You are too nice.  I keep checking to see when the [rhymes with witch] has been grabbed by the feds and thrown in jail for fraud and the person's assests (including the DVC) taken and liquidated to pay back the victims.


----------



## Y-ASK

UConnJack said:
			
		

> You are too nice.  I keep checking to see when the [rhymes with witch] has been grabbed by the feds and thrown in jail for fraud and the person's assests (including the DVC) taken and liquidated to pay back the victims.


  Too funny!  And yes I kind of agree with this point of view...


Y-ASK


----------



## Lewisc

UConnJack said:
			
		

> You are too nice.  I keep checking to see when the [rhymes with witch] has been grabbed by the feds and thrown in jail for fraud and the person's assests (including the DVC) taken and liquidated to pay back the victims.



It's not clear if the person in question even owns DVC.  I check this thread every so often but I'd be surprised if the problem poster has any money to return.


----------



## rinkwide

Lewisc said:
			
		

> ...I'd be surprised if the problem poster has any money to return.


You could probably get a judgement to have the old washing machine that's rusting away out in front of her trailer seized and sold for scrap.


----------



## DMKEDM

Hi, everyone...as JimMIA noted, we as yet do not have a "final answer" on this situation, altho truth be told, I'm past it...I'm content to let the "wheels of justice turn," slow tho it may be. 

And other posters are correct that I'm freshly back from a week at WDW (which was wonderful and fabulous and fantastic!)...

I do believe in "what goes around comes around"--the "bad person" will be punished (arguably, is being punished even as I type...she's a "sad sack" and a study in misery if ever I heard of one!)...in the meantime, I'm fine and my family is fine (and last I heard, which was last week, the same is true for Stacey)...

I know I speak for both Stacey and myself when I say thank you yet again for all your moral support and sympathy...and we can all be glad that the widespread interest in this sad tale has probably saved some others from a similarly expensive fate...I've had a number of inquiries about the "who"...I tell everyone I'm not allowed to offer a name, but can provide a reference on any name any person wants to fly by me...and not since within the first few days of this saga has anyone inquired about a person who was "the" person...I believe she has been stopped, and that is a very good thing...

Joyful holidays to all of you...thank you again for your support and caring...and rest assured that what can be done is being done...

Dani


----------



## StaceySaulino

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday.  I just wanted to check in and say that I agree with Dani's post.  No news yet, but we are doing what we can.  We'll be sure to let everyone know when we have news, but in the mean time - thanks for the continued support!!  It mean so much!!

Stacey


----------



## Granny

Dani & Stacey...thanks for taking the time to post.  I think we all know that it might be a long time, or never, until your situations are resolved.  While the thread was started as a warning to renters of potential issues, it has clearly evolved to a large number of people empathizing with you and wishing you all the best for a positive resolution to the problems.  Continued best wishes to you and your families.


----------



## InstImpres

Lewisc said:
			
		

> It's not clear if the person in question even owns DVC.  I check this thread every so often but I'd be surprised if the problem poster has any money to return.



Either she or her "aunt" does own DVC, as she did rent once and the person succesfully went and returned about 4-6 weeks ago.


----------



## Lewisc

InstImpres said:
			
		

> Either she or her "aunt" does own DVC, as she did rent once and the person succesfully went and returned about 4-6 weeks ago.



I understand people think her aunt owns DVC but that doesn't mean that asset is available to pay the posters who got scammed.


----------



## disneyfanfamily

I have been reading this.  Not all, about half.  I actually fell upon it because I just decided to look into renting points, possibly, for the summer.  This scares me, even though most go rentings go smoothly.

To those who have been scammed.  I am so sorry!  I would feel angry, and for lack of better words, just "yucky".  We had someone ask for our account information at our bank one time - and the teller actually printed her a copy of our statement.  Nothing happened to our money, but it sure made me feel disgusted.  So I cannot even imagine.....

Again, I am so sorry.


----------



## InstImpres

Lewisc said:
			
		

> I understand people think her aunt owns DVC but that doesn't mean that asset is available to pay the posters who got scammed.



I guess my point was either she owns or someone in her family does (unless of course she rented and than rerented the ressie).  Hopefully when everything comes out either she or the family member will do the right thing,


----------



## Sammie

rinkwide said:
			
		

> You could probably get a judgement to have the old washing machine that's rusting away out in front of her trailer seized and sold for scrap.



What does this have to do with anything that has happened concerning this situation, do you know she lives in a trailer.   

If you don't then basically you made a very negative assumption that people who live in trailers are scammers. 

I think we could have done without this comment.


----------



## JudyS

Wow, I just looked at this thread for the first time, and I am really sorry that this happened!  

Also, it really bothers me that Western Union is used for so many scams, and doesn't seem to take any action to stop them.  I hope word gets around of how dangerous Western Union transfer sare, but I also think Western Union should warn anyone who uses their money transfer service.  My own opinion is that personal checks are best for transactions with strangers. I generally won't buy unless the seller takes either my check, or Paypal. And as a seller, in hundreds of sales that I have made on eBay, I have never gotten a bad check.  It's a crime to intentionally write a bad check -- and since the person's name is right on the check, it is easy to track the offender down.  

When a scam like this takes places on the DVC board, it hurts everyone here.  I haven't read this whole thread, but is anyone taking up a collection to help out the people who were victimized by this scam?  If we all donate a little (either money or points), perhaps we can provide the victims with the vacation that they lost.


----------



## JimMIA

JudyS said:
			
		

> Also, it really bothers me that Western Union is used for so many scams, and doesn't seem to take any action to stop them.  I hope word gets around of how dangerous Western Union transfer sare, but I also think Western Union should warn anyone who uses their money transfer service.  My own opinion is that personal checks are best for transactions with strangers.


The truth is, *any* form of payment is fine between honest buyers and sellers.  And *any* form of payment can be used fraudulently by unscrupulous people.  If people think Western Union and other money transmitters are bad...they sure don't want to hear some of the horror stories with cashier's checks and wire transfers! 





> It's a crime to intentionally write a bad check -- and since the person's name is right on the check, it is easy to track the offender down.


That's not the case everywhere, and the rub is proving _intent_.  In Florida and many other states, bad checks are originally assumed to be non-criminal and only become criminal after the victim jumps through a number of hoops.





> When a scam like this takes places on the DVC board, it hurts everyone here.


Yep, and that's why this thread has progressed for so many pages without very much dissension.  The DIS community has been overwhelmingly supportive. 





> I haven't read this whole thread, but is anyone taking up a collection to help out the people who were victimized by this scam?  If we all donate a little (either money or points), perhaps we can provide the victims with the vacation that they lost.


Yes, there have been a number of generous offers, all of which have been declined by the victims.  If you read the whole thread you'll see several offers, and there have also been private offers.  Dani's original intent in starting the thread was only to alert folks to the potential risks involved in these types of transactions, but the response has been much greater than I'm sure she expected because of the quality of the community we have here.


----------



## the who #3

i am the who#3, but i am not the person who scammed another.  i certainly hope they catch him/her.  it was a dirty deal, i think that is what the comment about the washing machine was all about.

if that person tries it again surely they will be caught.  if you listen carefully to the messages in this thread you may find that the guilty person is also listening.


----------



## tor

JudyS said:
			
		

> My own opinion is that personal checks are best for transactions with strangers. I generally won't buy unless the seller takes either my check, or Paypal.




I don't really like using checks with strangers because not only do you give them your name and address but your account number too. What it really comes down to is that locks are to keep honest people honest because they seldom stop thieves.


----------



## Granny

tor said:
			
		

> I don't really like using checks with strangers because not only do you give them your name and address but your account number too.


I understand about the account number, but when I rented points I obtained the renters name, home address (no PO Box) and telephone number.  I would never rent to someone who was not willing to provide that information.

As for the account number, I don't know that provides many people with much as I've written literally thousands of checks over the course of my life and have no idea how many people have seen my account number.  I do, though, prefer cashiers' check or money order.


----------



## MinnieGirl33

Sammie said:
			
		

> What does this have to do with anything that has happened concerning this situation, do you know she lives in a trailer.
> 
> If you don't then basically you made a very negative assumption that people who live in trailers are scammers.
> 
> I think we could have done without this comment.



I took the comment as people who are willing to steal/scam are trash.

JM2C's


----------



## Lady V

Just Giddy said:
			
		

> I have been reading all of these posts and it makes me just sick. I have never cought anything from E-Bay becuase of these type of things. Pay pall protects the seller and only the seller.
> I'm wondering though why no has set up a "escrow" type of business that accepts the $ from the seller and the proof of "item" delivered, be it a reservation or UPS deliver receipt for a physical item item. This would protect both parties and I would pay a transaction fee for the secutiry.



that is so true.  I know a girl where I work and last Christmas she sold about 8 Xboxes on ebay or something like that and made over $1000 on each.  She never had the items.  She still has not gotten in trouble.  She has a court date this Jan though.  Let's hope justice prevails.


----------



## diznyfanatic

> Originally Posted by *Just Giddy*
> I have been reading all of these posts and it makes me just sick. I have never cought anything from E-Bay becuase of these type of things. Pay pall protects the seller and only the seller.



Not true.  

Sellers are also very much at risk when dealing with unscrupulous buyers in all sorts of situations.  Everything from buyers who falsely claim non-receipt of goods to scamming the seller with the old bait and switch routine where they purchase a mint condition item and then claim damage to the item upon arrival and send back an old, damaged duplicate item to the seller for a refund.

In fact, in the majority of cases, the *buyer* will win any dispute with PayPal, however, that doesn't mean PayPal can recover their funds if the account has been emptied by an unscrupulous seller.

If paying via a credit card through PayPal, *buyers* also at least have additional recourse through their credit card company.  Sellers have no other recourse when scammed other than law enforcement if enough money is involved.

As has repeatedly been noted in this thread, buying or transacting with ANYONE (online OR in real life) where a significant amount of money is involved is probably not for people who aren't willing to do their homework first in order to minimize the risk.

Edited to add that my comments are in no way meant to sound unsympathetic to anyone, especially Dani and Staci, who have been scammed and I continue to offer my support and hope that this will be resolved somehow.

It is actually thanks to Dani's and Staci's stories and efforts that people in the DIS community have been trying to work together as a community to offer support and guidance to hopefully avoid any more of these situations from happening in the future.

This thread has provided many of us some valuable information on ways to protect ourselves from this type of fraud and that can be applied in all types of scenarios online or in real life.


----------



## Sammie

MinnieGirl33 said:
			
		

> I took the comment as people who are willing to steal/scam are trash.
> 
> JM2C's



Which was my point, people who live in trailers are not all trash and to imply that is very rude.


----------



## DMKEDM

Stacey & I just talked talked...she will be posting very soon to tell you that she has gotten all of her money back...I'm SO happy she got her money back, and I'm equally happy that the dishonest person who ripped us both off has been stopped cold. Justice has been served. 

I, however, have chosen to stop at this point. While I also might have been able to get my money back, it would require more high-stress commitment on my part, and I just don't want to revisit this sad situation. I started this thread way back when in order to highlight some "red flags" and "warning signs" in hopes that it might help someone else who might otherwise have been as impulsive as I was...it seems to me the thread has achieved that result...people are now aware. 

Stacey &  I just marvel at how we've both so benefitted from the caring and support from the people on these boards. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you all. I must also add special thanks to JimMIA, who's THE BEST...what a kind, helpful, caring person he is...and what a privilege to "know him" thru this mess. And Webmaster Doc took "helpfulness from the mods" to new heights. I thank him so much. And I'm thrilled-thrilled-thrilled that one unexpected byproduct of this sad situation is my new friendship w/Stacey...we both agree we're "friends forever" and that is the brightest of glittery silver linings. She even tried to share her repayment with me--I told her "no possible way"...but I'm heart-warmed by her offer. We truly do feel like we were in this together, and are each so glad the other is feeling good about the end of the story.

In short, for both Stacey and me, it's a happy ending to a sad story. Thank you all, so very much, for all your warm thoughts and caring messages. I hope each and every one of you has the very best holidays ever!

Dani


----------



## Tinkerbellcrafter

I wish both of you could get your money back but it is great that a friendship has evolved from this!!  I also want to thank you for starting this thread because we are DVC members and rented extra points and we put a contract in place, etc.  Thank you for the heads up!!


----------



## InstImpres

Dani -

While there is no money back for you it sounds like you are emotionally in a good place which is something no money can buy.  Glad things worked out for Stacey.  Thank you again for sharing your story and saving so many others.

Happy holidays


----------



## lisaviolet

Merry Christmas and and oh so Happy New Year to you Dani!!!!!  To you too Stacey.  And to both of your families.  Happy to hear of  progress made (ie. only "progress" b/c I wish you could get your money back as well)

All the best to you both,

Lisa


----------



## RachelTori

DMKEDM said:
			
		

> Stacey & I just talked talked...she will be posting very soon to tell you that she has gotten all of her money back...I'm SO happy she got her money back, and I'm equally happy that the dishonest person who ripped us both off has been stopped cold. Justice has been served.




YAY!!!!       So happy for you both.  I just LOVE a Happy Ending!!


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

That is the best news ever!!!!


----------



## 4Pluto

Wow.  You are both such a class act.  Here's hoping all that good karma finds its way back to you both.


----------



## StaceySaulino

Hi All, 

I'm so very happy to report that I got all of my money back from the owner of the DVC contract. She is the dishonest person's aunt...the aunt that actually owns the DVC contract, and she was willing to make good on her niece's behalf. Unfortunatley, she was contacted by the police about the situation first, but she did make good in the end. I'm so grateful to my local police, as well as so many others, for their help in making this happen. 

I don't blame Dani for not wanting to interrupt her holidays with the ugliness of this situation. It's a very stressful process and not wanting to pursue it, or be tangled up in this mess any longer is completely understandable. She seems to be in a really good frame of mind, so it truely is a happy ending for both of us. 

Dani & I agree that it's just unbelieveable how wonderful everyone within this community has been to us. I am overwhelmed at the support I had from so many on the DIS boards, and I am especially grateful to JimMIA, and to Webmaster Doc for their help and support. They are just amazing people. I definitley learned a good hard lesson from this situation, but even better I was reminded at how good, nice, and honest most of us really are!! I wish I could meet so many of you, but one thing is definite - I'll be keeping up with the posts to make sure all is well!! 

Thanks again - and I hope you all have a wonderful holiday!!!!!!!! 
__________________


----------



## bjakmom

What great news !!  And many thanks to you both (and all of the DISers who helped you) for warning us all and stopping this person from defrauding others - well done !!


----------



## ZipaDeeDooDah

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> I'm so very happy to report that I got all of my money back from the owner of the DVC contract. She is the dishonest person's aunt...the aunt that actually owns the DVC contract, and she was willing to make good on her niece's behalf. Unfortunatley, she was contacted by the police about the situation first, but she did make good in the end. I'm so grateful to my local police, as well as so many others, for their help in making this happen.


A very happy ending indeed (which you so deserved!) I imagine this has been a very stressful ordeal for you, but good for you for pursuing her!!!  You have all saved countless others from having to go through the same heartache.


----------



## T.E. Yeary

I am delighted! I must say that I doubted this day would come, but I am so glad that it has turned out well for you! 

Best wishes,
Tom


----------



## 3DisneyKids

Doing the Happy Dance for you!    

So glad that you got your money back, Stacey!  And Dani, glad to hear that you are at peace with this, as that is truly priceless!

Thank you both for sharing your stories with us...you have definitely helped others here.


----------



## tacomaranch

Wow, I am so happy this has turned out with a happy ending.  I also have had the pleasure to deal with wonderful members of this forum who have be more than gracious to me and my son when things went very bad for us.

There are so many great people out here and we are all so blessed to have each other for support.

I am so happy it turned out well and you have made friends.

April


----------



## Granny

I just wanted to add my expressions of gladness that there has been at least some repayment and an ending to the ordeal that will allow you to return to your lives with peace in your heart.

Dani and Stacey....as others have said you both handled this with extreme graciousness.  While I'm sure the hurt is still there, it sounds like both of you have a lot of balance in your life that allows you to keep things in perspective.

Very best wishes for a wonderful Christmas season, and thank you for sharing your saga with us.


----------



## irishbosoxfan

I come on and check this thread every so often and I am glad that there has been some resolution! I feel bad for the aunt who has to pay for her nieces deception but I am glad it worked out in the end!


----------



## aclov

Finally the saga is over    And what a great way to end the year with a happy ending    And good things to come in 2007 to all of you who had to go through this drama


----------



## mmmcq

Great news Stacey and Dani it's absolutely understandable why you would choose not to pursue the claim more aggressively at this point.  You're just back from a terrific trip with your son, his girlfriend and a visit there from your dad.  You have warm & fuzzy memories that you don't want to tarnish.

You both have been amazing in your reserve throughout this whole ordeal.  It's been truly an inspiration for many of us.

From my family to both your families.....we hope you enjoy a truly joyous holiday season.


----------



## jakenjess

I'm so glad there's been a resolution for you.  Happy Holidays to you both!!


----------



## OneMoreTry

StaceySaulino said:
			
		

> ...I'm so very happy to report that I got all of my money back from the owner of the DVC contract. She is the dishonest person's aunt...the aunt that actually owns the DVC contract, and she was willing to make good on her niece's behalf. .....
> Thanks again - and I hope you all have a wonderful holiday!!!!!!!!
> __________________




A little light in the darkness.  'Tis the season.

Thank you for sharing your heart through this.  Merry Christmas.


----------



## bluslag

Happy Happy Day!!! You've taught us so much, not only what to look for but how to be so patient and kind at the same time.


----------



## robinb

I was hoping that the PP would step up to the plate, and then I was convinced she would not.  It seems that the aunt has more integrity than the PP and I hope that she does not allow her niece to take advantage of her again.  

I am so happy that Stacey got her money back.  I am also happy that Dani is at peace with her decision to not follow up on her claim.


----------



## cobbler

Congrats to both of you for having this very ugly issue resolved.


----------



## RDCAnthony

Thats great news


----------



## LIFERBABE

Im sorry you both had to go thru this and happy to see how supportive everyone has been.  That's great that you both see the good in this situation.

We should also keep this thread bumped for every question that asks about making family members or children Associate Members that have access to our memberships.  It's ashame that she drug her own Aunt thru this.  Im sure the other victims will be lined up to recover their funds also.


----------



## alldiz

been following this thread...

so happy with the ending.....

sounds like peace of mind has been had all around  

a happy and healthy holidays to everyone
peace
kerri


----------



## JimMIA

Before we all go too overboard with rejoicing over Aunt E making Stacey whole, we should recognize that she did nothing she was not *compelled* to do.  

I'm glad she finally fulfilled her promise to the police, but it wasn't like she just shot off a check.  It took more than a month, and it was only after repeated follow-up phone calls from the detective Stacey was working with.  When she became convinced he and Stacey were not going away, she did the _minimum_ she had to do to keep her niece out of jail.  I am convinced that she would not have paid a penny to anyone without the determined persistence of the detective.  In fact, she dragged her feet so much she came perilously close to becoming a criminal subject herself.

She is also very well aware of Dani's situation (Dani and Stacey have both talked to her), and she has not made any effort to resolve that situation.  She has not made any offer to make Dani whole...despite the fact that it would not cost her one additional penny to do so.  

She's just an Aunt -- not an angel.


----------



## rinkwide

JimMIA said:
			
		

> ...She's just an Aunt -- not an angel.


Funny, that's also the catch-phrase for a new Fran Drescher sitcom rolling out this spring.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

Jim:  Thanks for the reality check.   

Do we have any updates on the other individuals that came forward once they realized this thread was about the same person they were dealing with?  Also, was it ever determined as to whether or not there was criminal intent from the beginning, or if things just kind of spiraled out of control?


----------



## monami7

Dani please igmnore my PM I had not finished reading.  So happy it was all resolved.
Heidi


----------



## 3DisneyKids

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Before we all go too overboard with rejoicing over Aunt E making Stacey whole, we should recognize that she did nothing she was not *compelled* to do.
> 
> I'm glad she finally fulfilled her promise to the police, but it wasn't like she just shot off a check.  It took more than a month, and it was only after repeated follow-up phone calls from the detective Stacey was working with.  When she became convinced he and Stacey were not going away, she did the _minimum_ she had to do to keep her niece out of jail.  I am convinced that she would not have paid a penny to anyone without the determined persistence of the detective.  In fact, she dragged her feet so much she came perilously close to becoming a criminal subject herself.
> 
> She is also very well aware of Dani's situation (Dani and Stacey have both talked to her), and she has not made any effort to resolve that situation.  She has not made any offer to make Dani whole...despite the fact that it would not cost her one additional penny to do so.
> 
> She's just an Aunt -- not an angel.



Thanks for the update, Jim.  Though I am thrilled that Stacey got her money back, I am still just FRIED about this!      Why on Earth would the aunt, who is the owner, drag her feet over something like this once the police were involved?!?!  Unbelievable!

Since the aunt has to had to pay-up for the dishonest neice, I hope she washes her hands of DVC altogether and sells her contract to an honest family.


----------



## Alicnwondrln

so glad something good came out of this and I hope you guys have a good holidays 
i wish dani got her $ back to and the others but understand her reasons for letting it go at this point


----------



## manning

I'm finding it hard to believe the aunt didn't know!!


----------



## tor

manning said:
			
		

> I'm finding it hard to believe the aunt didn't know!!



I agree.


----------



## JimMIA

calypso*a*go-go said:
			
		

> Do we have any updates on the other individuals that came forward once they realized this thread was about the same person they were dealing with?


I have only heard a little bit from Joe and Sally very early on in the saga, and nothing in quite a while.  I'm not aware of any actions they have taken, except that I know Joe initially went to his local police and got no response.  I understand why he got no help -- because there were 41 points actually transferred to his account and that makes it a civil matter, not criminal.





> Also, was it ever determined as to whether or not there was criminal intent from the beginning, or if things just kind of spiraled out of control?


That, I think, depends on which specific case you are talking about, and it is also difficult to tell for sure without subpoening the account and exploring the account history.

In Heather Vogel's case, clearly there was no criminal intent, because Heather's ressie went through and was completed satisfactorily.

In Dani's case, it's hard to say that criminal intent was there from the start, but it's quite clear that it was there as soon as Dani paid her the $800 deposit.  She was supposed to transfer points and she didn't.  When Dani requested a refund, she came up with a silly story about needing to rent 160 points to be able to pay Dani back -- which was obviously a blatant lie.  From that point forward, Dani's case was a clear-cut criminal slam dunk.

Stacey's case was fraud from the very beginning.  She took Stacey's deposit, and claimed to have made a ressie.  When questioned, she gave Stacey a confirmation number.  The confirmation number was indeed a good number, but it was for another family and had nothing to do with Stacey.  She finally sent Stacey a text message saying she'd cancelled the ressie because Stacey called her too many times. There never was a ressie in Stacey's name -- another slam dunk.

I don't have enough facts on Sally's case to tell for sure, but my gut feeling is that Sally's case was identical to Stacey's.  Fraud from the start.

I also think -- but can't prove -- that the other two attempts (the people who did not send her any money) were totally fraudulent from the start.


----------



## icydog

JimMIA 
*"She is also very well aware of Dani's situation (Dani and Stacey have both talked to her), and she has not made any effort to resolve that situation. She has not made any offer to make Dani whole...despite the fact that it would not cost her one additional penny to do so. "*

*I have been following this tread for a long time now. I thought I understood it all but may have missed something. Why exactly would it not cost the Aunt one additional penney?*




*JimMIA "In Dani's case, it's hard to say that criminal intent was there from the start, but it's quite clear that it was there as soon as Dani paid her the $800 deposit. She was supposed to transfer points and she didn't. When Dani requested a refund, she came up with a silly story about needing to rent 160 points to be able to pay Dani back -- which was obviously a blatant lie. From that point forward, Dani's case was a clear-cut criminal slam dunk.*

*Stacey's case was fraud from the very beginning. She took Stacey's deposit, and claimed to have made a ressie. When questioned, she gave Stacey a confirmation number. The confirmation number was indeed a good number, but it was for another family and had nothing to do with Stacey. She finally sent Stacey a text message saying she'd cancelled the ressie because Stacey called her too many times. There never was a ressie in Stacey's name -- another slam dunk."*


*I know that we are not suppose to be naming names but how is anyone to know who this person is if we don't inform everyone. What's to stop her from continuing to rob from our fellow members? I see lots of the folks on this tread know of whom we are speaking but I for one am in the dark.*

*I want to add my sincere good wishes to both of the folks who got robbed by this woman. I know the ordeal was not easy but your tenacity paid off. I am glad you found a friendship out of this ordeal. That will be worth more in her lifetime than the cash Dani lost. Congratulations to you both for a battle well fought and won!!!*


----------



## disneykidatheart

icydog said:
			
		

> JimMIA
> *"She is also very well aware of Dani's situation (Dani and Stacey have both talked to her), and she has not made any effort to resolve that situation. She has not made any offer to make Dani whole...despite the fact that it would not cost her one additional penny to do so. "*
> 
> *I have been following this tread for a long time now. I thought I understood it all but may have missed something. Why exactly would it not cost the Aunt one additional penney?*
> 
> 
> She could give Dani restitution by transferring her points into Dani's account--now or as soon as she has points available.  Dani paid her $800.  I wonder if she could enjoy a trip to WDW knowing that the points being used rightfully belong to another member.


----------



## dianeschlicht

WOW!  Go to WDW for a few days, and look what happens!  So glad "auntie" came through for you, Stacey, but I agree, she should also come through for Dani as well.  I really have my doubts that the aunt is completely faultless in any of this.  She certainly knew about the point usage by her niece.  Now I hope Disney does their part and puts a watch on her contract!


----------



## JimMIA

disneykidatheart said:
			
		

> icydog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JimMIA
> *"She is also very well aware of Dani's situation (Dani and Stacey have both talked to her), and she has not made any effort to resolve that situation. She has not made any offer to make Dani whole...despite the fact that it would not cost her one additional penny to do so. "*
> 
> *I have been following this tread for a long time now. I thought I understood it all but may have missed something. Why exactly would it not cost the Aunt one additional penney?*
> 
> 
> She could give Dani restitution by transferring her points into Dani's account--now or as soon as she has points available.  Dani paid her $800.  I wonder if she could enjoy a trip to WDW knowing that the points being used rightfully belong to another member.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly right.  In fact, she offered to transfer points for Stacey, but Stacey declined that option specifically so that it would still be available to Dani later.  (We would have to designate an account for the points to go into since Stacey is not a DVC owner, but that could have been done.)
Click to expand...


----------



## JimMIA

icydog said:
			
		

> *I know that we are not suppose to be naming names but how is anyone to know who this person is if we don't inform everyone. What's to stop her from continuing to rob from our fellow members? I see lots of the folks on this tread know of whom we are speaking but I for one am in the dark.*


I understand your concern, but the rules are the rules.  The most we can do under the DIS rules is to let people run names by us to see if they might be dealing with this person.  I've had a number of inquiries, and so far none of them have been this person.

The fact is, it is not the DIS's responsibility to police rentals and to ensure the integrity of people using the R/T boards.  The principle of "Caveat Emptor" is very much in effect, and it is the *responsibility of both parties * to protect themselves.  

All of us who were directly involved in this situation have repeatedly said that the DIS response was more than any of us expected, but we have to take care of ourselves -- not depend on someone else.

In truth, nobody else can protect the parties in a rental if they don't do it themselves.


----------



## tor

JimMIA said:
			
		

> I understand your concern, but the rules are the rules.  The most we can do under the DIS rules is to let people run names by us to see if they might be dealing with this person.  I've had a number of inquiries, and so far none of them have been this person.
> 
> The fact is, it is not the DIS's responsibility to police rentals and to ensure the integrity of people using the R/T boards.  The principle of "Caveat Emptor" is very much in effect, and it is the *responsibility of both parties * to protect themselves.
> 
> All of us who were directly involved in this situation have repeatedly said that the DIS response was more than any of us expected, but we have to take care of ourselves -- not depend on someone else.
> 
> In truth, nobody else can protect the parties in a rental if they don't do it themselves.



I agree it is not the DIS's responsibility but is it prudent for them to continue to knowingly allow that person to use this forum to perpitrate additional crimes? At some point it would seem to be aiding the criminal by protecting that persons identity.


----------



## JimMIA

tor said:
			
		

> I agree it is not the DIS's responsibility but is it prudent for them to continue to knowingly allow that person to use this forum to perpitrate additional crimes? At some point it would seem to be aiding the criminal by protecting that persons identity.


This has been kind of a recurring theme throughout this thread.  However, as far as I know, this feared activity has not occurred.  

I am very confident the DIS would never knowingly allow the crook to continue to use the R/T board.  I think the DIS has done everything the technology permits them to do, and I do not think the person has participated in the R/T Board for quite some time.

I understand the concerns -- and the concerns are legitimate -- but I do not think the reality matches the "What if's."


----------



## mikesmom

tor said:
			
		

> I agree it is not the DIS's responsibility but is it prudent for them to continue to knowingly allow that person to use this forum to perpitrate additional crimes? At some point it would seem to be aiding the criminal by protecting that persons identity.


 I don't think it would do any good to block this person or even post their name. All they would have to do is come back on the site with a new user name. Yes, the name of the owner of the points would be the same, but in at least one case the victim never saw that name as the perpetrator took the money in advance and never made the ressie. This could be done repeatedly. There is no real defense against someone who intends to be dishonest, EXCEPT for caution and care.


----------



## tor

JimMIA said:
			
		

> This has been kind of a recurring theme throughout this thread.  However, as far as I know, this feared activity has not occurred.
> 
> I am very confident the DIS would never knowingly allow the crook to continue to use the R/T board.  I think the DIS has done everything the technology permits them to do, and I do not think the person has participated in the R/T Board for quite some time.
> 
> I understand the concerns -- and the concerns are legitimate -- but I do not think the reality matches the "What if's."



I am glad to here that they are doing everything possible to prevent reoccurrance, but we wouldn't know that without the what ifs.


----------



## chris1gill

I went away for ten days & come back to some pretty good news    Stacey, I'm so glad you got your money back, that is wonderful...

Dani, I'm hoping that after the Hoiday's you will reconsider & step up your efforts to get money or points back....  Don't let them get away with what they (the PP & Aunt) have done... the Aunt is not faultless here....

If I were the Aunt & I had the police calling me for criminal fraud, I think I would go out of my way to make things right in all regards, it's unbelievable the Aunt did not do this & stalled off as long as she could....

I'd still like to see the PP charged with criminal fraud... make her think twice before ever doing this again....


----------



## CRSNDSNY

I'm so glad to see some resolve happening.


----------



## drakethib

JimMIA said:
			
		

> Before we all go too overboard with rejoicing over Aunt E making Stacey whole, we should recognize that she did nothing she was not *compelled* to do.
> 
> I'm glad she finally fulfilled her promise to the police, but it wasn't like she just shot off a check.  It took more than a month, and it was only after repeated follow-up phone calls from the detective Stacey was working with.  When she became convinced he and Stacey were not going away, she did the _minimum_ she had to do to keep her niece out of jail.  I am convinced that she would not have paid a penny to anyone without the determined persistence of the detective.  In fact, she dragged her feet so much she came perilously close to becoming a criminal subject herself.
> 
> She is also very well aware of Dani's situation (Dani and Stacey have both talked to her), and she has not made any effort to resolve that situation.  She has not made any offer to make Dani whole...despite the fact that it would not cost her one additional penny to do so.
> 
> She's just an Aunt -- not an angel.




I somewhat agree with this statement but two things that suck is that:

1. The aunt had to pay the money back, not the PP. I would have let the PP go to jail over it. I also would have turned my niece over to the police over it.

2. Maybe the delay is because the aunt didn't have the money to pay back or the points in her account her transfer them to Dani. But I guess she could have made some kind of payment agreement with both Dani and Stacey.

I still think it sucks that the Aunt had to pay the money back and not the PP.

But hey I don't know what happened behind the scenes, maybe the aunt knew what was going on during the scheme, heck I don't know and there can be a bunch of what ifs.

With that being said I am happy to hear Stacey getting her money back and Dani at being at peace with this (but Dani I hope Santa brings you a check for the amount you were swindled)


----------



## CRSNDSNY

Well stated, drakethib.


----------



## hauntedcity

3DisneyKids said:
			
		

> Since the aunt has to had to pay-up for the dishonest neice, I hope she washes her hands of DVC altogether and sells her contract to an honest family.



...but who would feel comfortable buying from her?  Not I!


----------



## dianeschlicht

hauntedcity said:
			
		

> ...but who would feel comfortable buying from her?  Not I!


Why????  Either you would get the contract or Disney would.  Buying a resale from her would likely go through a broker of some sort, so I can't figure where it would be uncomfortable.  Fraud is fraud, no matter if it's a rental or a sale, and both are punishable by law.


----------



## MyGoofy26

I just came across this thread tonight and got totally sucked in!  It's like a soap opera!  I'm only halfway through the posts and can't walk away. .. so glad I don't work tomorrow! LOL!

OP (and other victims) so sorry this all happened to you.  In the half that I've read, although it's terrible to think of people in the world willing to scam money from others it's nice to read all the positive posts and see how those people are outnumbered.

One thing I did want to comment on - I hadn't seen it mentioned yet, and if it was mentioned later then I apologize and just ignore me, LOL.  Many were questioning why the PP would own points in her aunt's name and my first thought is she was trying to hide assets.  Judging by her many excuses, she's may not all that financially stable and may have bought or transferred the contract using her aunt's name to protect the "value" of the DVC contract from coming into play if facing bankruptcy, judgements from creditors, etc.  At least that was my first thought, rather than the existence of the contract or validity of her statement that she bought the contract being suspect.  They could still be suspect. . . but wanted to throw this other reason out there as well.


----------



## VogelFamily

I have been in such a "funk" since I returned from my dream vacation in October. As many of you are aware, I rented points from the person who has scammed others. From the very beginning, I had my concerns. I rented 11 months in advance and had nothing but trouble from the very beginning in communicating with this individual. This was documented on these boards on a couple of occasions when I really felt uncomfortable. She always had an excuse and I so thought that I was over reacting that I let my gut feeling fall to the side. In the end, I have no idea how I came out of this with a successful rental. 
I believe it was about 2 weeks before my final payment was due when she contacted me and asked that I pay by Western Union. We had never discussed this and after brief research, I sent certified/confirm receipt mail to her and the aunt that I was not willing to do this. Those letters continued to sit at the post office. The day before the balance was due, she finally contacted me by phone. I explained to her that I would be happy to make other arrangements but I would not send money WU. Since we had not even discussed that option I wanted full refund immediately if she needed to change the plans. I also insisted on 3-way phone call with MS to confirm reservation prior to sending the balance. This took place and I sent balance on postal money order with restricted delivery. If she wanted this money, she had to show picture ID and sign for it. Of course, she did this within minutes of it arriving even though the other letters still sat there. Curiously, the aunt let hers sit until days after the money order was cashed. Maybe the aunt really wasn't involved, I will never know, but I truly believe there is much more to the big picture.
I am so grateful that this worked out for me. I did truly have that "once in a lifetime" vacation. My memories are still carrying me and I am STILL not ready to go back to the real world. I can't explain the "funk" that I have been in but I don't need to. I know each of you following this thread can fully understand. No one around here "gets it". They thought I should be commited just for knowing where I was going to eat 9 months in advance. 
Somewhere, sometime, someone smiled down on me and gave me my happy ending but I don't know if I would have the courage to do it again. Before this came to a conclusion, I just wanted to know if I had been scammed or not. I think I could have dealt with that as long as I knew before I showed up and was told I had no reservation. But that is really the whole point isn't it? As a renter, I had no control. For a control freak, an obsessive planner, that is an issue. I knew that going in but I wasn't prepared. I thought I was. I did learn a lot along the way. That is all that matters. 
Enough rambling on. Best wishes to Dani and Stacey. I really feel your frustrations, you have taught others so much. Thank you for sharing. 

By the way, you all were right. I have worked part time since my daughter was born 11 years ago. While sitting at the BCV, I told my husband, " maybe I should work full time. I'd gladly put in a few more hours a week to buy into this." It was magnificent. All I imagined and then some. I am currently trying to make plans for next October. I hope to rent again, but don't know if it's for me or not. Happy Holidays All. Thank you for your support and well wishes. It has been said before but as the recipient of all of the advice, I must stress what a great community you have here. Some of the best..................Heather


----------



## dumbo71

VogelFamily said:
			
		

> I have been in such a "funk" since I returned from my dream vacation in October. As many of you are aware, I rented points from the person who has scammed others. From the very beginning, I had my concerns. I rented 11 months in advance and had nothing but trouble from the very beginning in communicating with this individual. This was documented on these boards on a couple of occasions when I really felt uncomfortable. She always had an excuse and I so thought that I was over reacting that I let my gut feeling fall to the side. In the end, I have no idea how I came out of this with a successful rental.
> I believe it was about 2 weeks before my final payment was due when she contacted me and asked that I pay by Western Union. We had never discussed this and after brief research, I sent certified/confirm receipt mail to her and the aunt that I was not willing to do this. Those letters continued to sit at the post office. The day before the balance was due, she finally contacted me by phone. I explained to her that I would be happy to make other arrangements but I would not send money WU. Since we had not even discussed that option I wanted full refund immediately if she needed to change the plans. I also insisted on 3-way phone call with MS to confirm reservation prior to sending the balance. This took place and I sent balance on postal money order with restricted delivery. If she wanted this money, she had to show picture ID and sign for it. Of course, she did this within minutes of it arriving even though the other letters still sat there. Curiously, the aunt let hers sit until days after the money order was cashed. Maybe the aunt really wasn't involved, I will never know, but I truly believe there is much more to the big picture.
> I am so grateful that this worked out for me. I did truly have that "once in a lifetime" vacation. My memories are still carrying me and I am STILL not ready to go back to the real world. I can't explain the "funk" that I have been in but I don't need to. I know each of you following this thread can fully understand. No one around here "gets it". They thought I should be commited just for knowing where I was going to eat 9 months in advance.
> Somewhere, sometime, someone smiled down on me and gave me my happy ending but I don't know if I would have the courage to do it again. Before this came to a conclusion, I just wanted to know if I had been scammed or not. I think I could have dealt with that as long as I knew before I showed up and was told I had no reservation. But that is really the whole point isn't it? As a renter, I had no control. For a control freak, an obsessive planner, that is an issue. I knew that going in but I wasn't prepared. I thought I was. I did learn a lot along the way. That is all that matters.
> Enough rambling on. Best wishes to Dani and Stacey. I really feel your frustrations, you have taught others so much. Thank you for sharing.
> 
> By the way, you all were right. I have worked part time since my daughter was born 11 years ago. While sitting at the BCV, I told my husband, " maybe I should work full time. I'd gladly put in a few more hours a week to buy into this." It was magnificent. All I imagined and then some. I am currently trying to make plans for next October. I hope to rent again, but don't know if it's for me or not. Happy Holidays All. Thank you for your support and well wishes. It has been said before but as the recipient of all of the advice, I must stress what a great community you have here. Some of the best..................Heather





Now THAT is a post.  May DVC come your way and SOON.  We could use a few more like you.


----------



## MyGoofy26

VogelFamily said:
			
		

> I can't explain the "funk" that I have been in but I don't need to. I know each of you following this thread can fully understand. No one around here "gets it".



I can imagine how confusing it must be for you right now!  Almost a year of stress, wondering if/when things would fall apart completely just to find out that you were the "lucky" one.  That whole "what could have been" has to be bothering you!    

What's sad is that this person has caused so much pain to so many people, and while she may be one of those people who wallows in her own misery (don't know one way or the other if she does - although her few posts and excuses seem to point in that direction) I don't think she'll ever truly understand what she's done to all of you.

I finally finished reading this whole thing today, and it seems like she was almost easing herself into the scam.  Perhaps her intentions starting out were good and mistakes happened, but she realized she could make a quick buck when nothing truly "bad" happened to her (such as in the case from last year where the poster said part of the points transferred and she never followed through with the rest)  She may have been working up the nerve to try it again with you and chickened out when you called her on the Western Union thing and unfortunately found someone willing to wire the money.  

I hope all that were victimized see some sort of resolution, but most importantly I hope that the feelings created by what she has done to you all don't hang over you all during the holidays.  I hope you can all "forget" long enough to enjoy time with your families.


----------



## DMKEDM

Heather: Bad as I felt over losing my $800, and over realizing I'd been scammed (there's nothing quite like the feeling one gets when one realizes one's been stupid and has been "had" as a result of that stupidity!), I wouldn't trade what happened to me for what happened to you for 3 times $800!!! Even what happened to Stacey was worse...I didn't (don't) have small children who were going to be disappointed; I didn't have actual plans in place that were at risk...I just saw a chance to grab some extra points so I could plan a bigger, more luxurious trip...I think of all of us, I'm perhaps the one least hurt...

Not that that excuses in any way what the "PP" (problem person) did (and no I cannot tell anyone, via PM or any other method, the person's name!)...The fact that I'm over it; that Heather got her vacation after much stress and agony; that Stacey got her money back doesn't make it "ok" that PP did what she did. But I am over it. In my view, all I lost was money. Yes, it was a lot of money. Yes, there were things I couldn't do/didn't buy because I lost that money. But I didn't risk a child's excitement. I didn't have to worry that my dream vacation might fall apart, w/essentially no notice and in a time & place where I would have limited ways to cope. It was, after all's said and done, "only money" for me...

I am profoundly grateful to know that "PP" has been stopped. (And I'm certain she has been stopped. Completely and totally.) I'm SO glad Stacey got her money back, and can take her little ones to Disney, albeit "later." And I'm really glad Heather got her trip, altho the stress leading up to it had to have been horrific.

Heather, do consider renting again, especially if you aren't yet ready to buy into DVC. So many people here on the DisBoards would be pure delight to rent from...if I had any extra points (maybe in five years or so I'll be over my "I want to go to Disney every six weeks" phase???), I'd gladly rent them to you! I suspect there are a number of folks who have posted regularly on this thread who would be happy to rent to you...don't let one bad apple wreck a renewal of a dream...you're actually a really, really good example of the lesson I learned the hard way...you were careful; you did pay attention to warning signs. And you did get a positive result ... I'm quite sure my "blind trust" and over-anxiety to get those extra points contributed greatly to my loss!

To those who wondered: my family is in the midst of a wonderful holiday season; I am over the "damage" done to me by this scam. I've learned from it; I've gained a real friend in Stacey, and have had my heart warmed by the help of JimMIA and the support of so many on these boards...all is right in my world -- even if I don't have enough points to go to Disney every six weeks! (I wouldn't keep my clients very long if I actually did leave for a week every six weeks anyway, and then I'd have to sell my DVC membership and then all would NOT be right in my world--grin!!!)... 

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to everyone...

Dani


----------



## castleri

and a Merry Christmas and wonderful holiday season to you and your family,  You do truly have the spirit of the season and have helped many people during this whole thing -  Thank you.


----------



## dianeschlicht

So glad everything appears to have been worked out to the satisfaction of EVERYONE involved. I also hope Dani is right and that the PP HAS been stopped completely and totally!  Happy Holidays to all!


----------



## jekjones1558

This thread has been so disheartening and so uplifting.  I love your priorities, Dani.  Heather's and Stacey's persistence are admirable.  And the helpfulness of people like Jim and Doc and Tom is a wonderful example of what "community" is all about.  God bless you, one and all.


----------



## Tamar

Great news! I'm so sorry Dani and Stacey had to go through anything like this, and we're all grateful that they pursued this and stopped the PP from doing any further harm. Happy Holidays and much pixie dust to all!!


----------



## svalencia1

I am so happy to see this outcome. I didn't think that there would be any resolution, although I was hopeful that there would be. I'm am so glad to belong to the DIS community. The care and compassion shown to all of the victims from Jim, Doc and all of the posters has been amazing. MAy everyone have a wonderful holiday season.


----------



## joepoe

dianeschlicht said:
			
		

> Why????  Either you would get the contract or Disney would.  Buying a resale from her would likely go through a broker of some sort, so I can't figure where it would be uncomfortable.  Fraud is fraud, no matter if it's a rental or a sale, and both are punishable by law.



In fact, since it is interstate commerce, it is a federal crime. I would prosecute.


----------



## AndyLand

Just a couple of weeks ago I decided to rent or transfer my points for this year. We've done WDW a few times a year for about 10 years, been on 5 Disney cruises, Disneyland Paris and California. We have also traded to stay at Shutters in Santa Monica (wonderful place). It's time to give it a break and decide whether to sell or points or not.

I joined the site and put up my 300 pts for rent post, thinking this would be a simple process and that I would learn as I went and I also assumed that some kind of escrow account or other protection was used to protect both parties.

After getting many PM's, emails and multiple requests for part of my points, (I wanted to rent/transfer them all at once as I thought the new rule was only (1) rental /transfer per year) I started to return messages. Many of them went unanswered and constantly calling member services to check dates etc for people who don't even seem to really want them or have made multiple requests to many different members, it all seem overwhelming and time consuming.

Then I come across this long thread about fraud and deception (shouldn't there be an escrow account or something?) and here I am (brand new to the boards) with one or 2 posts to my name wondering if I'll just trade for a non Disney resort and not bother trying any transaction at all. I mean given the current situation I think it's going to be tough for someone to rent for the first time.


----------



## dianeschlicht

joepoe said:
			
		

> In fact, since it is interstate commerce, it is a federal crime. I would prosecute.


I'm not sure how this statement goes with the one of mine you quoted.  I was referring to a SALE of points, not the rental process.  The discussion I responded to with my post was about someone not wanting to buy the aunts contract from her because of the fraud with renting.  If a contract is sold, it will either be sold to the buyer or to Disney in ROFR, so no need to be afraid of losing anything in that situation.


----------



## 3DisneyKids

AndyLand said:
			
		

> Just a couple of weeks ago I decided to rent or transfer my points for this year. We've done WDW a few times a year for about 10 years, been on 5 Disney cruises, Disneyland Paris and California. We have also traded to stay at Shutters in Santa Monica (wonderful place). It's time to give it a break and decide whether to sell or points or not.
> 
> I joined the site and put up my 300 pts for rent post, thinking this would be a simple process and that I would learn as I went and I also assumed that some kind of escrow account or other protection was used to protect both parties.
> 
> After getting many PM's, emails and multiple requests for part of my points, (I wanted to rent/transfer them all at once as I thought the new rule was only (1) rental /transfer per year) I started to return messages. Many of them went unanswered and constantly calling member services to check dates etc for people who don't even seem to really want them or have made multiple requests to many different members, it all seem overwhelming and time consuming.
> 
> Then I come across this long thread about fraud and deception (shouldn't there be an escrow account or something?) and here I am (brand new to the boards) with one or 2 posts to my name wondering if I'll just trade for a non Disney resort and not bother trying any transaction at all. I mean given the current situation I think it's going to be tough for someone to rent for the first time.



First, WELCOME to the DIS boards!  It is always nice to have new "faces" here.  Secondly, yes, you happend to be popping it at a very diificult time renting-wise.  This thread, however, is all about the actions of one and only one dishonest person.  The vast majority of rentals go off without a hitch.

As for people not returning messages...   Many folks just go to the R/T board and are not really DISers, so they aren't on very often, thus are not checking their PMs, etc.    Good luck and I hope you and around for a while!


----------



## CinderellaIam

Wow, I stepped away from this thread for a few weeks as it was making me a little anxious about my up-coming (now over) vacation on rented points.  I am soooo glad to see that that Stacy has resolution and Dani is at peace with where things are. 

For those prospective renters who are letting this scenario scare them from ever renting points (Heather are you listening?)  I want to say that you need to trust people, however not blindly.  Follow your gut instincts and do your due dilligence.  As any with other business transaction, do not jump in blindly.  

I have just returned from my third WDW vacation in two years on rented points and I must say that my experiences with the three different owners have been so much more than pleasant.  Each of them went out of their way to make my accomodations, add ME and the DP and even made changes when members of my party changed their minds about going.  

This very last rental my final payment was lost in the mail.  I had noticed the check hadn't cleared and contacted the owner, who called me at home two days before my trip and we made arrangements to get him paid ASAP.  Everything worked out beautifully and my family had a wonderful vacation.  

Happy Holidays to all!!


----------



## knees2theearth

This is so sad.  I feel terrible for you.  I am in a similar situation;  however, I haven't sent money yet.  I have supposedly "reservations" for la little over a week away.  I haven't heard back from the DV owner.  She had reservations that she could not use an dthey were for the exact same time I was looking.  I thought GREAT!  I have been since october 30 trying to finalize this.  This is my first time doing this and I was a little concerned for the reasons that happened to you.  Time is getting close and my husband and I have talked that we can not get on a plane (more like 2 or3 because of where we live) and show up at the Disney counter and they have nothing for us.  The reservations were switched to our name ( I have confirmation of that) , but she could have changed that again!  We are thinking that we will have to canceal our flights .  We have to check in to this.  We are thinking we will lose this as they were seat sale tickets.  Our children will be so disapointed as this was a part of thier christmas gifts.


----------



## knees2theearth

DMKEDM said:


> First, I must concede that I acted monumentally stupidly in this sad (expensive) story...arguably it's entirely my fault for being so unqualifiedly trusting. Since trust is a huge element in rent/transfer transactions, I thought it might help others to hear my painful experience...
> 
> Just yesterday, I impulsively jumped on an R/T board offer to rent 160 BCW points (I've talked to our mods, who are WONDERFUL...very sympathetic!--and they remind me I must not "name names")...I PM'ed the poster who offered the points, providing my phone number and email address.
> 
> 
> 
> This is so sad.  I feel terrible for you.  I am in a similar situation;  however, I haven't sent money yet.  I have supposedly "reservations" for la little over a week away.  I haven't heard back from the DV owner.  She had reservations that she could not use an dthey were for the exact same time I was looking.  I thought GREAT!  I have been since october 30 trying to finalize this.  This is my first time doing this and I was a little concerned for the reasons that happened to you.  Time is getting close and my husband and I have talked that we can not get on a plane (more like 2 or3 because of where we live) and show up at the Disney counter and they have nothing for us.  The reservations were switched to our name ( I have confirmation of that) , but she could have changed that again!  We are thinking that we will have to canceal our flights .  We have to check in to this.  We are thinking we will lose this as they were seat sale tickets.  Our children will be so disapointed as this was a part of thier christmas gifts.


----------



## dianeschlicht

knees2theearth said:


> This is so sad.  I feel terrible for you.  I am in a similar situation;  however, I haven't sent money yet.  I have supposedly "reservations" for la little over a week away.  I haven't heard back from the DV owner.  She had reservations that she could not use an dthey were for the exact same time I was looking.  I thought GREAT!  I have been since october 30 trying to finalize this.  This is my first time doing this and I was a little concerned for the reasons that happened to you.  Time is getting close and my husband and I have talked that we can not get on a plane (more like 2 or3 because of where we live) and show up at the Disney counter and they have nothing for us.  The reservations were switched to our name ( I have confirmation of that) , but she could have changed that again!  We are thinking that we will have to canceal our flights .  We have to check in to this.  We are thinking we will lose this as they were seat sale tickets.  Our children will be so disapointed as this was a part of thier christmas gifts.


Explain what it is you have done to pay for the reservation.  Has ANY money exchanged hands?  If not, I would be surprised if you actually have that reservation.

If you are within a week of your trip, try calling the resort directly to see if they have your name on the ressie.  I guess I would try to do a backup plan at this point as well, but I would NOT cancel the trip.  Be sure you have your confirmation slip and number and take that with you as well.  Not that it would necessarily help, but if you can't contact the owner within a week of travel, I'd make other arrangements.


----------



## Lewisc

When you rent points you pay the DVC owner, you don't pay Disney.  Some owners want to paid in full after they make the reservation.  Some want half at the time of the reservation and the other half 30-60 days before your trip.  I don't know of any owner that normally accepts payment a week in advance or even after the trip.

I don't know if the problem is with you or the owner but I expect that since you didn't pay the reservation was either cancelled or transfered to a renter that paid. You can try to call the owner but at this point the owner would be justified in asking you to FEDX a bank check.  Even then the owner might be afraid of being scammed.  The trip is two weeks away and you still haven't paid.

There isn't any reason to cancel the trip, call Disney and see if you can book a value resort like POP.






knees2theearth said:


> This is so sad.  I feel terrible for you.  I am in a similar situation;  however, I haven't sent money yet.  I have supposedly "reservations" for la little over a week away.  I haven't heard back from the DV owner.  She had reservations that she could not use an dthey were for the exact same time I was looking.  I thought GREAT!  I have been since october 30 trying to finalize this.  This is my first time doing this and I was a little concerned for the reasons that happened to you.  Time is getting close and my husband and I have talked that we can not get on a plane (more like 2 or3 because of where we live) and show up at the Disney counter and they have nothing for us.  The reservations were switched to our name ( I have confirmation of that) , but she could have changed that again!  We are thinking that we will have to canceal our flights .  We have to check in to this.  We are thinking we will lose this as they were seat sale tickets.  Our children will be so disapointed as this was a part of thier christmas gifts.


----------



## calypso*a*go-go

I don't understand...you have a reservation in your name for a stay that you haven't paid for yet.  Do you have some indication that the owner is dishonest or has mislead you in some way?  Why are you so worried this isn't going to work out?


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## dianeschlicht

Okay, so something is REALLY fishy here!  Click on Knees2theearth to see all posts.  Only 1 shows up, yet there is a 13 listed under the name as number of posts.


----------



## Tamar

dianeschlicht said:


> Okay, so something is REALLY fishy here!  Click on Knees2theearth to see all posts.  Only 1 shows up, yet there is a 13 listed under the name as number of posts.



And, in addition to the one that shows up, there are 2 in this thread that don't. I suspect there's some kind of a technical glitch.


----------



## aprince&princess

Aren't the number of posts the ones that you have started?  I think knees2theearth lists 1 for the post that was a new thread, but the 13 represents the number of posts made by that person.

Also I took the post to mean that they only requested to rent the points yesterday and that is why it hasn't been paid for yet.  The other person had a reservation that they aren't going to use and switched to the new name.  So it could  be verified with MS and then paid for since the date is so close?


----------



## Lewisc

aprince&princess said:


> Aren't the number of posts the ones that you have started?  I think knees2theearth lists 1 for the post that was a new thread, but the 13 represents the number of posts made by that person.
> 
> Also I took the post to mean that they only requested to rent the points yesterday and that is why it hasn't been paid for yet.  The other person had a reservation that they aren't going to use and switched to the new name.  So it could  be verified with MS and then paid for since the date is so close?



A google search, current site, shows the rest of her posts.  I mis-read her post.  If the reservation was only transferred in the last few days she'll have to have a degree of trust.  I'd think the owner would want funds wired, FEDXed  bank check or some kind of credit card.


----------



## LisaS

dianeschlicht said:


> Okay, so something is REALLY fishy here!  Click on Knees2theearth to see all posts.  Only 1 shows up, yet there is a 13 listed under the name as number of posts.


Within the past couple of days, a change was made to the "Find all posts by [user]" functionality. It now hands off the request to Board Tracker which only knows how to do "Find threads started by [user]". So we no longer have the ability to find all posts.  A few of us have posted about this on the Technical Support forum but I haven't seen any official response yet as to whether this is a short-term technical glitch or a permanent change.

So it would appear that 12 of "knees" 13 posts were replies on existing threads. You would have to use an outside search engine such as Google to try to track them down.


----------



## LisaS

Lewisc said:


> A google search, current site, shows the rest of her posts.  I mis-read her post.  If the reservation was only transferred in the last few days she'll have to have a degree of trust.  I'd think the owner would want funds wired, FEDXed  bank check or some kind of credit card.


But in her post she states: 





> I have been since october 30 trying to finalize this.


----------



## Disney1fan2002

aprince&princess said:


> Also I took the post to mean that they only requested to rent the points yesterday and that is why it hasn't been paid for yet.  The other person had a reservation that they aren't going to use and switched to the new name.  So it could  be verified with MS and then paid for since the date is so close?



No, "knees" stated this in the OP: 

She had reservations that she could not use an dthey were for the exact same time I was looking. I thought GREAT! *I have been since october 30 trying to finalize this.  The reservations were switched to our name ( I have confirmation of that) *

Looks like "knees" has been involoved with this since October, and has not sent payment. It really would not surprise me if the owner cancelled the reservations. 

Why knees would assume she still had a reservation that has not had a payment applied to it.....


----------



## gblast123

DMKEDM - I may have some extra points I could give you for a short vacation.  They will have to be used by the end of January.  I was going to give them to an undeserving relative, but I think that your plight is worthy of a charitable undertaking.  Contact ASAP if you can go by the end of January.


----------



## alldiz

gblast123 said:


> DMKEDM - I may have some extra points I could give you for a short vacation.  They will have to be used by the end of January.  I was going to give them to an undeserving relative, but I think that your plight is worthy of a charitable undertaking.  Contact ASAP if you can go by the end of January.



wow.....these boards are awesome 
kerri


----------



## DMKEDM

Gblast123: Thank you so much for your offer...it warms my heart...but I can't accept...as a general matter, it just wouldn't be right--undeserving tho your relatives may be (grin), they should get priority over me! Especially since I am just fine w/my Disney'ing...in fact, I'm here at WDW (BWV) as I type this (and loving it, of course)...and even talked to our guide a couple of days ago about the possibility of adding on...

But I can't thank you enough for thinking of me...

Dani


----------



## 4formickey

wow!


----------



## MaryKatesMom

DMKEDM - I wanted to let you know I appreciate what it must have taken to warn everyone.  You didn't have to put yourself out there but you did and HAVE taken your advice to heart.

Thank you for being so graceful.


----------



## kend58

I have yet to rent and might easily have followed a similar path under similar circumstances as these are by the nature of the rules private matters between the owner and the renter no 3rd party oversight is involved.

I am not certain how I would have reacted but shame would likely have been my largest reaction and I am uncertain I could have lived my problem out in such an open and forthright manner.

Dani thanks and pixie dust to you forever
Stacey I am glad your outcome was good and financial resolution was reached.

The entire "cast" of supporting characters in this real life drama amaze me and I am humbled by the restraint and reserve shown by one and all during the entirety of the events.

I only recently started focusing on retirement vacation planning and considering my options re DVC as a component in that mix.  Renting at 1st blush looked fast, easy and simple but I am certain fast & easy is not how it will work for me now.  I after reading the thread am still willing to be a renter but will now definitely be using renting the same way I would owning i.e. only where a long lead time exists and the owner and I have the chance to mutually resolve the method of the transaction and answer questions and concerns ... renting is not a method I would consider for short term or relatively impulsive trips any longer as the easy and fast paths required for short notice rentals are where the scammers if they are here can hide i.e no time to get a ressie confimed before payment is sent etc because there is insufficient lead time before the ressie dates.

There is no reason in my circumstances to play in that arena IMHO the possible savings are far outwieghed by the potential problems and the doubts I would have about the whole thing would steal the majic from my trip. (By this I mean sometimes it appears renting can save 50% over a deluxe hotel stay but I could just stay at a mod or value or offsite or the Swan on points or something and avoid the quick turn around payment required immediately no time to think / verify before making payment or before asking the owner to take an irrevesible action scenarios)

All that said I can still forsee an owner needing to rent at times because of a shortage of points after banking and borrowing for all of a trip or to get in a second trip after using points and having had the 1 transfer for the year occurr to book the 1st trip. 

Obviously any non-owner (my current status) looking for the DVC experience and trying to save money has only the rental option unless they can get themselves designated by some owner as the lucky unworthy relatives of the year .  I just won't ever think of it as something easy and fast (unless maybe it was a repeat rental situation with someone). 

References and contract signings even with overnight US mail, faxes and emails as the delivery methods take more time than the easy and fast route it all looked like to me a few weeks ago (i.e. days and weeks of time elapsing not minutes and hours).

Again thanks to all involved for posting to this thread and thanks to DOC for making it very hard for a new R/T thread browser to ignore it.


----------



## dpuck1998

I can't believe I read the whole thing...

And Tom Roxs!  I bought my DVC contract from him and 
HIGHLY recommend it!!


----------



## Tinkerbellcrafter

To kend58 and all...I joined this board as the one situation was in progress and it made us nervous since we were DVC owners needing extra points for a grand gathering in May 07.  Happily we rented additional points and had a great trip for my DM's 75th bday at BWV.  Do your homework and don't be impulsive.  Most people are good.  Thank you for all who have shown a generous spirit in this thread!


----------



## ShesAPirate

I registered for this board so I would be able to comment on this story.  I think I may have belonged to this board once before, but can't remember what my user name was or any of the info, so I just started over  

All I can say is Wow!  I spent the last several hours, on and off, reading this thread.  It's unfortunate that there are people out there who are so heartless and cruel, and think only of themselves and what they can get for nothing.  On the other hand, it's incredibly reassuring that nearly everyone on this board was so sympathetic, helpful, and generous to the victims!  That restores my faith in human nature!


----------



## vzjsp5

Wow. I'm so sorry to read this. I cannot believe that people do this. My husband and I are DVC members since 2006 and we LOVE Disney. Thank you for the reminder as we were considering renting some of our points. It's always good to use your intuition.


----------



## Bell30012

My thanks to the mods and OP for this thread.  As an annual traveler, we've looked at renting points rather than staying at a Value resort but now I have been forewarned to check a bit further before I send funds that would ruin my vacation plans, if stolen.


----------



## Merilyn

I am also sorry to hear about your trouble. I have rented out points several times when I couldn't use them, and all has gone well. I hate it when we have people who are dishonest and makes us all afraid to help each other out. I guess I have been lucky with all my point rentals and I hope all those who rented points from me are happy too! Don't let this person prevent you from using the rent/trade boards again. There really are honest people out there who want to help you and themselves when there is a need to rent or rent out points. It seems in todays world no one wants to go after the crooks. I had someone use my credit card number to buy something online. I knew their name and address but nothing ever was done about it. I wasn't out the money but I could have been. Again, so sorry!
Merilyn


----------



## 3guysandagal

The Rent/Trade boards arent the only ones with these problems.
TUG has had a bad renter lately as well, just a slightly different approach though.

Check it out here...

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1982636


----------



## Dodie

I just want to point out that this post is from *2006 *and hadn't been posted on since *2007 *until it was bumped up (for some reason) yesterday afternoon.  I just didn't want anyone to think it was current.


----------



## thepops

Maybe it's time to close it?


----------



## rlduvall

Dodie said:


> I just want to point out that this post is from *2006 *and hadn't been posted on since *2007 *until it was bumped up (for some reason) yesterday afternoon.  I just didn't want anyone to think it was current.



I've noticed this has been happening alot lately.


----------



## Bell30012

While it is an old thread, I am glad that I accidentally encountered it.  I plan to rent points for a trip during late 2009 as soon as my daughter's school calendar gets finalized at the school.  This thread, while old, may have saved me from foolish mistakes.


----------



## spiceycat

Bell30012 said:


> While it is an old thread, I am glad that I accidentally encountered it.  I plan to rent points for a trip during late 2009 as soon as my daughter's school calendar gets finalized at the school.  This thread, while old, may have saved me from foolish mistakes.



if you read the FAQ on the renting/trading board and go with someone who has several posts - you should be okay.

now don't go with a couple I have noticed that has a several posts - but have been on the dis for years - these people have less than 100 posts after being here since 2000.

the reason for this is you want to rent from someone who would be hurt by the dis - banding them. Which is one of the few things this website can do.

a 100 or less posts in 8 years is not a great committment. (my opinion)


----------



## Blahnde

spiceycat said:


> now don't go with a couple I have noticed that has a several posts - but have been on the dis for years - these people have less than 100 posts after being here since 2000.
> 
> the reason for this is you want to rent from someone who would be hurt by the dis - banding them. Which is one of the few things this website can do.
> 
> a 100 or less posts in 8 years is not a great committment. (my opinion)



I think this is really, really BAD advice!

Whether someone has several thousand posts (or fewer than 100!) is completely irrelevant in determining whether to rent or not rent from them.  Use the advice in the "stickies" at the top of the Rent/Trade board: things like using a contract, asking for referrences, getting the owner's full name, address, e-mail, and phone number, and, yes, READING their past posts.  If for whatever reason you are uncomfortable, do not go forward with this owner.  But do not simply look at the number of posts and discard someone as an incapable or dishonest owner because of a low point count.

Some folks do not feel they need to chime in on every topic, but that does not mean they are dishonest.  I, personally, would rather rent from someone who writes well thought-out posts which offer alternative points of view but who may have a low post count over someone whose count is in the thousands but cannot capitalize, spell, punctuate, and simply says, "I agree" or regularly repeats what has already been said.  Of course, that is just my opinion.

Blahnde


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## JimMIA

I think it is a HUGE mistake to rely on any *one* indicator in a transaction like this.   Just because someone doesn't post much does not mean they are untrustworthy.  The fact that someone has thousands of posts doesn't mean they know what they are doing.

To me, the main value in a number of posts is that it gives you a body of material to look at with the search feature to get an idea of what kind of person is behind the posts.  Equating posts with either expertise or honesty is a mistake, IMHO.

I think any potential renters should also understand that fraud situations like Dani and Stacey faced in this thread are very, very unusual.  The main problem we see occasionally in renting is not dishonesty, but one or both parties not knowing what they are doing.  Historically, that has been a *much* more serious risk to both sides in a rental arrangement than fraud.


----------



## mcgregml

> Originally Posted by Blahnde
> Whether someone has several thousand posts (or fewer than 100!) is completely irrelevant in determining whether to rent or not rent from them. Use the advice in the "stickies" at the top of the Rent/Trade board: things like using a contract, asking for referrences, getting the owner's full name, address, e-mail, and phone number, and, yes, READING their past posts. If for whatever reason you are uncomfortable, do not go forward with this owner. But do not simply look at the number of posts and discard someone as an incapable or dishonest owner because of a low point count.



Thank you, *Blahnde and JimMIA*!

I was very worried the second time I attempted to rent points out; the first time was a disaster, but we ended up using the points personally which was more fun for me anyway!  As you can see, even now my post count is extremely low.  Even in cyberspace, I prefer to "lurk" in anonimity 99% of the time.  If I really have something to say, or want to be included in an event like a cruise thread, then I'll break out and post.  Otherwise, I stay on the sidelines.  It really upsets me that for some people post count alone is the determining factor.

That being said, I understand that post count is one factor to look at when renting.  I try to compensate for the fact that I'm not very chatty on the boards by providing address and telephone information, and looking to my ebay account as a reference as well.

Thankfully, the second time around renting points went smoothly for both sides of the transaction.  I credit that largely to reading the DVC rent/trade stickies and seeking help in the best way to go about renting (use a contract, etc.).

Anyway, buyer beware and do your research before renting points!  Good luck to everyone!


----------



## disney aviator

Blahnde said:


> I think this is really, really BAD advice!
> 
> Whether someone has several thousand posts (or fewer than 100!) is completely irrelevant in determining whether to rent or not rent from them.  Use the advice in the "stickies" at the top of the Rent/Trade board: things like using a contract, asking for referrences, getting the owner's full name, address, e-mail, and phone number, and, yes, READING their past posts.  If for whatever reason you are uncomfortable, do not go forward with this owner.  But do not simply look at the number of posts and discard someone as an incapable or dishonest owner because of a low point count.
> 
> Some folks do not feel they need to chime in on every topic, but that does not mean they are dishonest.  I, personally, would rather rent from someone who writes well thought-out posts which offer alternative points of view but who may have a low post count over someone whose count is in the thousands but cannot capitalize, spell, punctuate, and simply says, "I agree" or regularly repeats what has already been said.  Of course, that is just my opinion.
> 
> Blahnde



I agree with Blahnde.  I am new to the DIS boards as I bought a DVC resale in August.  I bought a contract with a large amount of points that are banked from last year and will expire in Jan 09.  I am trying to rent what I can't use on the r/t board, but I'm sure with my low post count, many if not all will be very hesitant to even contact me.  There's nothing I can do about that really, but it's unfortunate because I have a fair price and will use a sample contract for rental that I have found on the board as well.  But because I am new and with few posts, my points which are just like any others (except that they are only good for a reservation through January 09) will probably end up unused.

Also, I am glad this one got bumped no matter how old it is.  This is a very good case study for a newbie like me!


----------



## kimberh

disney aviator said:


> I agree with Blahnde.  I am new to the DIS boards as I bought a DVC resale in August.  I bought a contract with a large amount of points that are banked from last year and will expire in Jan 09.  I am trying to rent what I can't use on the r/t board, but I'm sure with my low post count, many if not all will be very hesitant to even contact me.  There's nothing I can do about that really, but it's unfortunate because I have a fair price and will use a sample contract for rental that I have found on the board as well.  But because I am new and with few posts, my points which are just like any others (except that they are only good for a reservation through January 09) will probably end up unused.
> 
> Also, I am glad this one got bumped no matter how old it is.  This is a very good case study for a newbie like me!



I know excatly what you are saying. When I bought my first contract, it came with 600 points, about half were banked. I didn't have a clue what I was doing at first. I read and read then read some more. Then I  started posting. When I read that people felt more secured renting from those that had a higher post count, I found Threads that interested me and I could post a decent reply on. Not a no nonsense reply. When I reached 500, I really felt like maybe a renter would give me a second look. I hate that you are in this situation, but from someone that has rented before they bought, it does help to have some background on the person. I am even leary of excepting a transfer from someone that has a low post count. I really need to talk to them on the phone, see if they know what is going on. The biggest problem with a low post count to me, is that they don't know how things work with a transfer or rental. This can pose a huge problem.


----------



## chromi

I think the person from NY is at it again.  She uses a nick name and replies really quick to any offer!  So many red flags.  Her cell number is registered in a different state than her DVC location, she didn't answer her phone, never signed her e-mails.  She wanted half of the money before she maked the reservation.  However, all conversation with her ended when I asked her for her full legal name to search for her ownership record on the Florida comptroller site (occompt.com/disclaimer.html)[/url].  Of course, she did not reply to that e-mail!  If she was legitimate, she would have had no problem responding to that request.  Suddenly, her DVC posting was closed too.  I guess she got nervous!  I would never rent from someone that hid their true identity.  And with the internet, it is easy to check on someone.  Amazing what people post on Myspace.


----------



## Deb & Bill

chromi said:


> ... However, all conversation with her ended when I asked her for her full legal name to search for her ownership record on the Florida comptroller site (occompt.com/disclaimer.html)[/url].  ...



Just a reminder:  you won't find all DVC members at that website because some don't own in Orange County.  Some have all their points at VB or HHI.

There are a lot of members who will want half or full payment just to make the reservation.  

It may have been a legitimate owner who thought you were a bit needy and decided they didn't need the headache, too.  Just an idea.


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## Laurabearz

Lots of good info in this thread. It should be bumped everyone once in a while


----------



## chromi

Being smart about a large purchase is not being needy.  When someone has something to hide, there is always a reason.  If someone did not own in Orange county, I'm sure they would provide the appropriate info.  Unless of course, they have reason to hide that info.

Please note, I have worked with legitimate renters at this site that have been wonderful.  Most provided more info then I even knew to ask.


----------



## chromi

Laurabearz

I'm almost at my required posting count so I can not send you a PM yet or I would have sent this directly to you.

I read your posting.  I love the Quit smoking tracker that you have.  Where did you get that from?  I could not lift it from the posting.  

I am interested since I am a cancer researcher working with lung cancer patients and their families that have multiple members with tobacco related cancers.  I would love to pass this on to those struggling with their nicotine addiction.  It may give them more incentive to quit.  I love how it tracks the money you they are saving!    BTW, I was a too cool smoker at one time too in the '70's so I know how hard it is to quit.


----------



## DjdBrit

I am only half way through reading this but want to subscribe as I am really bummed for you.  I am only on page 19....


----------



## DznyDreamz

As old this post is, its a good reminder to the potential newbies to DVC such as myself of what to look out for as a dishonest transaction.

I would equate a low post count to a starter set of checks (which may not be how they do it any longer but I have had the same bank account for 14 years so I'm not sure).  When I opened a new checking account, I was given a pack of starter checks that had no name or address printed on them and the printed checks were sent within a few days/weeks.  There were not many, if any, places that would accept those checks. It didn't mean that I didn't have plenty of money in the account, I just hadn't "proven" myself yet.

To this day, the liquor store near me has a sign posted stating that checks under #1000 would not be accepted.  If you don't write a check very often, you might not ever reach that check #. That doesn't mean you don't have the money.

Those with a low post count are more then likely very nice decent people who either choose not to chime in on the boards very often, have just discovered the wonders of the DIS or don't spend hours each day on the boards, that in itself does not make them untrustworthy.  However in today's society, it is reason to think twice.

Now, there are also people with extremely high post counts (or check #'s), and they could very well be untrustworthy or might bounce checks one after the other.

All that rambling to say everyone should think twice about everything and everyone. You can not draw conclusions about someone by one factor alone. It has to be all encompassing.


----------



## Muushka

What a great analogy!

And pun!





> Sad Story from One Who Trusted without *Checking*!


----------



## lranen

Thanks for sharing!  It seems to me that the "red flags" are easier to see in retrospect, and not so obvious at the time.   You can bet I'll be on the lookout though!


----------



## MyteJoe

Reading your story brought back memories.  I was buying NFL season tickets and something very similar happened.  When you look back its easy to see where you went wrong, but in the heat things its a different story.  I think this is a great way to show/remind people how things like that happen.


----------



## PrincessNewsie

I've read most of this, but I never saw any kind of resolution.

Was there ever any satisfactory resolution for any of the four parties involved?


----------



## jgdebelak

New here and reading this....which I am glad I did!!! I am SOOOO sorry this happened to you. I hope there was some sort of resolution. It is a good reminder of what to look out for. Again, I am sorry this happened to you.

All the best-


----------



## Cardiac

does anyone know a great third party that handals rentals?


----------



## WebmasterDoc

Cardiac said:


> does anyone know a great third party that handals rentals?



DVC Rentals ... and they are also a sponsor of the DIS!


----------



## Cardiac

maybe me but i do not see the DVC point rentals on that site


----------



## jgdebelak

Well, since I am VERY NEW, and after reading this crazy long and ....wow... horrible thread for so many people...I am glad atleast Stacy was able to have her situation resolved, and Dani was able to be happy in the outcome and in a happy place to not go further. 

So...here is another set of questions....I am NEW to this board....but my family and I have been DVC members since 2006. I have randomly read these boards over several months....and after reading this long post....I can see it is probably going to be very difficult to rent our extra points. 

Is there any way to rent out our points through someone else so that the renter is comfortable in the transaction...and the buyer is comfortable with the transaction? We received so many points when we originally purchased...double the purchase points...that we have yet to use them all up! We have gone the last 3 years in a row...but will be going on a vacation elsewhere this coming summer. Will have to get rid of these somehow....and I could not stand to watch them expire.

Anyone with any suggestions?? Webmaster?


----------



## WebmasterDoc

Cardiac said:


> maybe me but i do not see the DVC point rentals on that site



Your original question simply asked about a place that handles rentals - and Dreams is a great place for that. 

No one can "rent" DVC points. Only a reservation made using DVC points may be rented from a member. If you want to rent a reservation from a source other than the Rent/Trade Board, then Dreams Unlimited Travel would be a good resource to accomplish such a transaction. 

If you wish to rent directly from a DVC member, the DVC Rent/Trade Board here on the DIS is a great option.

I have been associated with the Rent/Trade Board for almost 10 years now and can count on a few fingers the number of problem rentals we have had in total. In most all cases, theose problems could likely have been avoided with a little extra due diligence. The VAST majority of the tens of thousands of rentals made thru this site have had no problems in any way. The purpose of this thread was to point out some of the issues and offer a discussion about the means to possibly avoid those potential problems. Members have lots of ways to protect themselves in a transaction and renters also have the means to protect themselves with a little advance due diligence.

If someone wants to rent a reservation with lots of safeguards, perhaps a rental direct from Disney or thru a Travel Agent like Dreams is the best way to go. If you are willing to work thru the potential problems and educate yourself about both the pitfalls and the benefits, then renting from a DVC Member can be a very rewarding and economical transaction. Members wanting to rent their points also need to realize that there is some work involved to do so over the internet. Many members have made strong relationships with past renters who contact them annually. Perhaps letting neighbors and co-workers that you can rent a reservation to them would be another way to begin if renting over the internet is a concern. Make no mistake, renting reservations can be a challenge especially in the current economic climate. IMO, everyone needs to be vigilant.

Please read the posts stuck at the top of the Rent/Trade Board and if there are any questions, ask before entering into a rental transaction.


----------



## Family-of-4

jgdebelak said:


> Well, since I am VERY NEW, and after reading this crazy long and ....wow... horrible thread for so many people...I am glad atleast Stacy was able to have her situation resolved, and Dani was able to be happy in the outcome and in a happy place to not go further.
> 
> So...here is another set of questions....I am NEW to this board....but my family and I have been DVC members since 2006. I have randomly read these boards over several months....and after reading this long post....I can see it is probably going to be very difficult to rent our extra points.
> 
> Is there any way to rent out our points through someone else so that the renter is comfortable in the transaction...and the buyer is comfortable with the transaction? We received so many points when we originally purchased...double the purchase points...that we have yet to use them all up! We have gone the last 3 years in a row...but will be going on a vacation elsewhere this coming summer. Will have to get rid of these somehow....and I could not stand to watch them expire.
> 
> Anyone with any suggestions?? Webmaster?




How about using the extra points for a Disney cruise.


----------



## jgdebelak

Family of 4, I would LOVE to use those for a cruise...but I won't have the money this year to fly down there with my family. My husband and I can only take so much time off of work, and we are committed to going on a vaca with some friends for a week at their beach house. So, no cruise for us!

Hopefully some solution will come up!

Thanks for the option, though!!!


----------



## 8mma

jgdebelak said:


> Family of 4, I would LOVE to use those for a cruise...but I won't have the money this year to fly down there with my family. My husband and I can only take so much time off of work, and we are committed to going on a vaca with some friends for a week at their beach house. So, no cruise for us!
> 
> Hopefully some solution will come up!
> 
> Thanks for the option, though!!![/_*
> 
> 
> Have you done anything yet with your points?  I really don't think you'd have any trouble if you decided to put them on dis trade/rent board.  I would rent from you!*_[/COLOR]


----------



## DVCGeek

Deb & Bill said:


> Just a reminder:  you won't find all DVC members at that website because some don't own in Orange County.  Some have all their points at VB or HHI.



Are there a public website you can check for Vero, HHI, or VGC ownership documents?

I have to add that this is a really interesting thread!  I haven't read it all yet (I jumped onto pg. 56 from 7 out of curiosity for what has been happening recently, if anything).

I plan to finish reading the meat in the middle soon...

I know it's old, but thanks to the OP and everyone who came afterward for sharing all this!


----------



## reed

I read the first and last pages of this post so I don't know if this has been suggested but is the original post and any applicable one that followed still here?  If so print them out.  They should show the offer to make a sale for financial compensation.  Also see if you can get a transaction number for the money transfer. That proves the money was paid. You already have the name and phone number of the person who offered the points and the city in which the money was picked up.   If you call the district attorney's number in the city where the money was received they may have enough information to follow up with a fraud charge.


----------



## dianeschlicht

jgdebelak said:


> Family of 4, I would LOVE to use those for a cruise...but I won't have the money this year to fly down there with my family. My husband and I can only take so much time off of work, and we are committed to going on a vaca with some friends for a week at their beach house. So, no cruise for us!
> 
> Hopefully some solution will come up!
> 
> Thanks for the option, though!!!



Can they be deposited into RCI?  Then you might be able to take a vacation in the future with them.


----------



## WALTSAGOD

Never rented points, but I would want a copy of the home phone that I would confirm with information and a copy of a recent drivers license.

I would have no problem dropping by to collect my money out of their *** if this happened to me. No, I'm not Clint Eastwood, but I consider myself very honest, and hot tempered.


----------



## JimMIA

PrincessNewsie said:


> I've read most of this, but I never saw any kind of resolution.
> 
> Was there ever any satisfactory resolution for any of the four parties involved?


Yes.  Stacy got all of her money back.  Dani elected not to go forward with law enforcement intervention.  As far as I know, there were at least two others who lost money and got nothing back.  There may have been more than two.

I also think Dani's thread was instrumental in 3-4 people *NOT* losing money, which was the point of the whole exercise.  Plus, as far as we know, there have not been any further rentals here on the DIS by that person.


----------



## JimMIA

reed said:


> I read the first and last pages of this post so I don't know if this has been suggested but is the original post and any applicable one that followed still here?  If so print them out.  They should show the offer to make a sale for financial compensation.  Also see if you can get a transaction number for the money transfer. That proves the money was paid. You already have the name and phone number of the person who offered the points and the city in which the money was picked up.   If you call the district attorney's number in the city where the money was received they may have enough information to follow up with a fraud charge.


You might want to read the entire thread.  I know it's work, but the answer is there for the reading.


----------



## KingdomJack

That really stinks. I'll feel for you.


----------



## 8mma

Thanks everyone for sharing - it took me two long days to read the whole thread but I've learned quite a bit from it all.  I think everyone who read this has come away wiser for it.


----------



## fireflymedic

wow I read the whole post from page one to hear,

I dont think I will rent from any one in NY in fact I want to rent from someone close enough to drive there and get my money back face to face.

I realy do want to rent points and think I will try it next yr.

I want the 2 bedroom and I just cant afford to do that though Disney but buying points make it more in my range.  I even like the idea of not having a made come in the room every day.

It just sounded like a good deal all around a true win/win.


----------



## jade1

fireflymedic said:


> wow I read the whole post from page one to hear,
> 
> I dont think I will rent from any one in NY in fact I want to rent from someone close enough to drive there and get my money back face to face.
> 
> I realy do want to rent points and think I will try it next yr.
> 
> I want the 2 bedroom and I just cant afford to do that though Disney but buying points make it more in my range.  I even like the idea of not having a made come in the room every day.
> 
> It just sounded like a good deal all around a true win/win.



Cripes, thats quite impressive. Have you read this thread on thier current trip at BCV on DVC Misc?

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2119929


----------



## Muushka

fireflymedic said:


> wow I read the whole post from page one to hear,
> 
> I dont think I will rent from any one in NY in fact I want to rent from someone close enough to drive there and get my money back face to face.
> 
> I realy do want to rent points and think I will try it next yr.
> 
> I want the 2 bedroom and I just cant afford to do that though Disney but buying points make it more in my range.  I even like the idea of not having a made come in the room every day.
> 
> It just sounded like a good deal all around a true win/win.



CRO sounds like a great place to rent from.  No worries there.  Good luck!

PS It can be a win/win, but there must be trust on both sides.


----------



## parlay

spiceycat said:


> if you read the FAQ on the renting/trading board and go with someone who has several posts - you should be okay.
> 
> now don't go with a couple I have noticed that has a several posts - but have been on the dis for years - these people have less than 100 posts after being here since 2000.
> 
> the reason for this is you want to rent from someone who would be hurt by the dis - banding them. Which is one of the few things this website can do.
> 
> a 100 or less posts in 8 years is not a great committment. (my opinion)



I have to disagree.  I just spent the last 3 1/2 hours reading this entire thread, and will post just once during that time.  I don't think that shows a lack of committment - its just different than yours.

And information is a powerful tool.  Thank you to the person who bumped this up.  

Experience is learning from your mistakes, but Wisdom is the ability to learn from other's mistakes.  Thanks to Dani, and Stacey for the wisdom and their willingness to share.


----------



## JimMIA

During the period when these situations were evolving, Diznyfanatic started a thread designed to help renters sort through the many suggestions and find ways to protect themselves.  The thread was actually started to _seperate_ those discussions from this thread about the ongoing situation with Dani and Stacey.

The thread drew a lot of good input from many posters and is well worth reading if you are considering renting a ressie from a DVC owner.

Here's a link to that thread: DVC Point Rental Primer


----------



## Modeltrf

As I am new to DVC and DIS this was an enlightning read.  It has certainly motivated me to read the DVC Point Rental Primer carefully


----------



## dmk909

I am also new. Maybe it is to my chagrin that I am from New York. Not New York City but the Western side along Lake Erie. (As a matter of fact, Lake Erie is looking back at me from my front windows   But really, I do not think it is fair to lump all  NYers into one sterotypical example of a schemer.  

I have been wanting to (needing to) rent out my points fro the past couple years but have been anxious about this entire process. I have a friend who buys, sell, rents, transfers points almost as a business. He's a pro & the nicest man anyone could ever meet - unless they wrong him! He's been telling me how easy it is but I am anxious nonetheless. I guess reading these posts will make everyone better prepared and alert to possible scams. 

In the meantime, how does a newbie get her points rented out? I don't have time to post continually to build up my forum presence - is there an alternative?

~Diana~ from WNY


----------



## robinb

dmk909 said:


> In the meantime, how does a newbie get her points rented out? I don't have time to post continually to build up my forum presence - is there an alternative?


Diana ... I just want to be clear on something.  You don't want to take the time or make the effort to become a member of the community.  You just want to use the DIS rent/trade board for your own personal profit and you want to know the best way to do that.  Am I missing something?

I would add your friend to your account as an associate and pay him to rent out your points.


----------



## S. C.

.


----------



## CarolAnnC

dmk909 said:


> In the meantime, how does a newbie get her points rented out? I don't have time to post continually to build up my forum presence - is there an alternative?
> 
> ~Diana~ from WNY



You might want to try Ebay, but it sounds like you have already rented your points out in the past so you may find connections via that route too.  Good luck...

Now back to the topic of A Sad Story.....


----------



## robinb

Just go over to the rent/trade board and list them .  By the way, you are giving your points away at $9 per point in my opinion.   You should be able to find someone soon enough.  Lots of people don't care if you're new and inexperienced as long as they are getting a good deal ... and $9 per point is a killer deal.  I don't rent my points for less than $12 per point ... but then again I am a well known poster and an experienced renter.


----------



## shonnons

Over the past 2 nights I  read the whole thing, wow.  

At this time trying to buy AKV and am waiting on ROFR. I had planed on renting one years points out. I dont thing after reading this it will be so easy.  My sister had been an owner and rented for some time. She has offered to help me rent the points. I thing now I may take her up on this.

This was a very sad story. I am glad that thing worked out for some of the victims involved but I do not think justice has been served.


----------



## JimMIA

shonnons said:


> Over the past 2 nights I  read the whole thing, wow.
> 
> At this time trying to buy AKV and am waiting on ROFR. I had planed on renting one years points out. I dont thing after reading this it will be so easy.  My sister had been an owner and rented for some time. She has offered to help me rent the points. I thing now I may take her up on this.
> 
> This was a very sad story. I am glad that thing worked out for some of the victims involved but I do not think justice has been served.


Keep in mind that this entire thread was about the criminal actions of ONE person.  

There are thousands of DVC rentals each year and almost all of them turn out fine for both parties.  When there are difficulties, they are usually caused by misunderstandings; fraud like we saw with this person is extremely rare.

I'm sure your sister will be a big help to you, and there is also a sizeable group of owners here on the DIS who will be glad to give you pointers on renting.  

I don't rent points, so the best advice I can give is to pay close attention to what experienced owners tell you because they know things about renting you don't.  They've seen the pitfalls, they've made mistakes or seen others make mistakes, and they know what they are doing.  That is especially true when they are telling you something you don't want to hear -- experienced renters KNOW what they are talking about.


----------



## dmk909

It is really terrible how such a small ratio of abuses can affect so many others and perhaps change the way honest & trusting people do business.

So, I'd like to add a thank you to the "shafted" members for sharing their experiences. Reading about what they have done "wrong" will certainly help me & others who may not be so experienced & a bit apprehensive.


----------



## Tinkerbellcrafter

fireflymedic said:


> wow I read the whole post from page one to hear,
> 
> I dont think I will rent from any one in NY in fact I want to rent from someone close enough to drive there and get my money back face to face.
> 
> I realy do want to rent points and think I will try it next yr.
> 
> I want the 2 bedroom and I just cant afford to do that though Disney but buying points make it more in my range.  I even like the idea of not having a made come in the room every day.
> 
> It just sounded like a good deal all around a true win/win.



WOW...ALL NYS people are not bad..in fact this thread had just gotten started and the situation was happening when we were planning to rent some points for the first time..we have now rented points from 2 different people to supplement our own points for additional family members to accompany us. Both times have been fine and our vacations were GREAT!

I received some great advice from people in this thread in the early years...please do not let a few bad eggs spoil the whole batch!


----------



## fireflymedic

Tinkerbellcrafter said:


> WOW...ALL NYS people are not bad..in fact this thread had just gotten started and the situation was happening when we were planning to rent some points for the first time..we have now rented points from 2 different people to supplement our own points for additional family members to accompany us. Both times have been fine and our vacations were GREAT!
> 
> I received some great advice from people in this thread in the early years...please do not let a few bad eggs spoil the whole batch!



I didnt let the post keep me from renting.

 In fact I now have a reservation for Jan. using DVC points.


----------



## tbjam01

I am really sorry that this happpened to you. I rented out points this year for the first time. We had to cancel a trip and I was going to lose those points.
Luckey for me that the person I was renting to knew alot about this  because it was my first time. We exchanged copies of our drivers license's before any money changed hands and also at the same time we both signed a contract.
It worked out great for both of us.
Everyone wants to be able to trust each other but it is hard. Going to Disney is such a fun thing you don't want to think you could get screwed.
I hope things work out.


----------



## Deb & Bill

tbjam01 said:


> I am really sorry that this happpened to you. I rented out points this year for the first time. We had to cancel a trip and I was going to lose those points.
> Luckey for me that the person I was renting to knew alot about this  because it was my first time. We exchanged copies of our drivers license's before any money changed hands and also at the same time we both signed a contract.
> It worked out great for both of us.
> Everyone wants to be able to trust each other but it is hard. Going to Disney is such a fun thing you don't want to think you could get screwed.
> I hope things work out.



I hope your DL doesn't have a copy of your SSN on it.  Some states include that.  That's kind of a lot of information to give to a stranger.


----------



## BeccaG

Deb & Bill said:


> I hope your DL doesn't have a copy of your SSN on it.  Some states include that.  That's kind of a lot of information to give to a stranger.



Really?  I am surprised on that but don't doubt you, so much for protecting your security by not carrying for SS card. . anyone know which states?


----------



## Paging Tom Morrow

fireflymedic said:


> wow I read the whole post from page one to hear,
> 
> I dont think I will rent from any one in NY in fact I want to rent from someone close enough to drive there and get my money back face to face.
> 
> I realy do want to rent points and think I will try it next yr.
> 
> I want the 2 bedroom and I just cant afford to do that though Disney but buying points make it more in my range.  I even like the idea of not having a made come in the room every day.
> 
> It just sounded like a good deal all around a true win/win.



This New Yorker prefers to rent to people who understand which homonym to use when writing....

(Just kidding)


----------



## robinb

Deb & Bill said:


> I hope your DL doesn't have a copy of your SSN on it.  Some states include that.  That's kind of a lot of information to give to a stranger.


I don't know if they still do that, I know that Illinois did it about 15 years ago but I think they stopped.  However, there is probably enough info on your DL between you DL number and your birthdate for a person to do a little identity hijacking without your SSN.  I would never photocopy my DL to rent out my points.  If someone insisted on it, I would politely decline and send them on their way to rent from someone else .


----------



## DVCGeek

Ohio had SSNs on our licenses for a while, then we had an option to have them removed but then the license may not be accepted in some situations as identification, and now we are back to NOT having it listed on them.

Crazy world; I don't think I'd want to give a copy of license to private person.  A business or financial institution sometimes seems scary enough.

Anyway, glad you rental went smoothly!


----------



## Etoile

Virginia used to have SSNs on their licenses.  I think I finally had mine changed to a regular number in 2004 or so.


----------



## Ericandjenng

I know this is several years old, but it has alot of good information for all of us who either have points to rent or want to rent them.

I hope Stacie and Dani have had many magical trips since this unfortunate incidence occurred.

Jenn


----------



## disneyfreak1972

I know this is very old but I am new to this.  I have heard about it before but just read it again in the new Unofficial Guide to WDW 2010.  This has definately made me aware of the possible trepidation.  I will move ahead with eyes and ears open.  

Thanks for Sharing and have a magical day!


----------



## bumbershoot

Ericandjenng said:


> I know this is several years old, but it has alot of good information for all of us who either have points to rent or want to rent them.
> 
> I hope Stacie and Dani have had many magical trips since this unfortunate incidence occurred.
> 
> Jenn





disneyfreak1972 said:


> I know this is very old but I am new to this.  I have heard about it before but just read it again in the new Unofficial Guide to WDW 2010.  This has definately made me aware of the possible trepidation.  I will move ahead with eyes and ears open.
> 
> Thanks for Sharing and have a magical day!




The OP recently posted a big, extremely positive, review of a recent trip taken after renting points.


----------



## zebsterama

For those sitting on the fence and thinking of renting:

I recently went through the process of renting points for the first time.

This thread helped me a lot to make sure I took the right steps to make sure I took as many precautions as possible so that I "the purchaser" did not get - burned.

It really was very valuable, and I followed the steps.

So far so good; we're scheduled to leave in July and I'm confident that there will be no glitches, because we followed the precautions.

At the end of the day, it's really a matter of trust because ultimately the DVC member can cancel the reservation (pretty much) anytime before you check in, and theres little that you can do about it then.

It's definitely not for the faint of heart - but if you do your homework, I believe it certainly takes much of the drama out of it.

I believe things will go well, and I'm confident - that as a result - I will rent again in the future.

Cheers,
Zebsterama


----------



## lorim

Thank you for sharing so that we may all remember to be so cautious


----------



## rcstef16

Pretty good advice here, don't seem to have easy ways around it


----------



## Disneybuckeye

I found this thread last night and it, along with the thread about owners being responsible for renters whose credit cards are declined, have given me great pause about renting or transferring points.  I am new to Dis and have a low post count and I am also bothered that I would be considered unreliable by many people.  We ...(snip)..... that I was considering renting or transferring if we cannot talk our college age children into a trip ........  Now I think I may just let them expire if we or a family member do not use them.  Renting and transferring sound like an awful lot of hassle, headache, and heartache.  Thank for bumping this thread to where I could find it.


----------



## robinb

Disneybuckeye said:


> We ....(snip)....... that I was considering renting or transferring if we cannot talk our college age children........  Now I think I may just let them expire if we or a family memberdo not use them.  Renting and transferring sound like an awful lot of hassle, headache, and heartache.  Thank for bumping this thread to where I could find it.


Yes, it can be a big hassle.  If you want less hassle you can contact one of the DIS board sponsors, DVC By Request, at the top of the Rent/Trade board: http://www.disboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29.


----------



## parlay

Disneybuckeye said:


> Renting and transferring sound like an awful lot of hassle, headache, and heartache.



I agree with Robin that it can be, and she gave you a really good suggestion for an easy alternative.


----------



## Disneybuckeye

Thanks for that info.  I will keep that in mind if we can't use those points.


----------



## Coach81

Kinda dated, post, eh?


----------



## letitsnow

Disneybuckeye said:


> I found this thread last night and it, along with the thread about owners being responsible for renters whose credit cards are declined, have given me great pause about renting or transferring points.  I am new to Dis and have a low post count and I am also bothered that I would be considered unreliable by many people.  We ...(snip)..... that I was considering renting or transferring if we cannot talk our college age children into a trip ........  Now I think I may just let them expire if we or a family member do not use them.  Renting and transferring sound like an awful lot of hassle, headache, and heartache.  Thank for bumping this thread to where I could find it.



would you like to adopt me?


----------



## Drudge

Just read this post after clicking the link from the topic on potential renters.  A big thanks to all who posted, in fact a big thanks to all who post on all the topics.  I am a new poster having just joined the boards.  Still thinking about joining DVC and the boards have been a wealth of information.  Just got back from a Disneyland vacation with family and these boards have been a huge help in understanding the whole DVC process.  GL to all involved and thanks again for everyones input.


----------



## ToddyLu

Welcome to the DIS, Drudge!!!


----------



## SassyLassy

Lots of great info here!  I am a first time renter and you really do rely a lot on trust and its blind trust but there are warning signs.  I am positive that the person renting from me checked my post count and posts that I actually wrote to help validate that i just didnt arrive and started posting to seem like an actual dismember.  I did the same.....if something looks fishy at that beginning step run dont walk away from the deal!

Also- I am so glad to hear that he ended up with a positive experience!


----------



## dandave

I have rented points from Dis members a few times over the years, and I've been very happy. Of course, I would never rent from anyone who had not been actively around the boards for a while - no matter what the price! In fact, I look at the post count before even reading through the rental details.


----------



## wendyinoc

I work for a bank and I can tell everyone never send money Western Union Money to a stranger. This is a great story, but a sad lesson. It is a loss a bank can not recover for you. However, on a postive note I caught a frauder sending real money to the people he was about to scam. I felt the next transaction would be the scam. The customer profited over $2K from me catching it.  She scammed the scammer LOL


----------



## dianeschlicht

wendyinoc said:


> I work for a bank and I can tell everyone never send money Western Union Money to a stranger. This is a great story, but a sad lesson. It is a loss a bank can not recover for you. However, on a postive note I caught a frauder sending real money to the people he was about to scam. I felt the next transaction would be the scam. The customer profited over $2K from me catching it.  She scammed the scammer LOL



Okay, I have GOT to know how that worked!  So a scammer was sending someone money?


----------



## JimMIA

dianeschlicht said:


> Okay, I have GOT to know how that worked!  So a scammer was sending someone money?


Long story, but very common in bank fraud schemes.  Wendy Bell did good!


----------



## JimMIA

Just bumping in response to a request


----------



## Cee

This is a great lesson for all of us. Thanks for bumping.


----------



## dianeschlicht

I almost feel like this thread needs to be a sticky somewhere here.


----------



## Alexander

whooo whooo--cough--cough--just blowing the dust off this thread

We have rented in both directions (as owners and renters) so many times I've lost count.  We also have begun to rent from Bonnet Creek owners.  I think the success we've had is due to communication.  I have found that honest renters are always willing to share names, addresses, phone numbers (home, cell, work), etc.  Frequently extra emails or phone calls are made just to make sure everything is in place or offer advice for the vacation.  All of our transactions are completed through PayPal to ensure extra protection and identity.


----------



## JimMIA

dianeschlicht said:


> I almost feel like this thread needs to be a sticky somewhere here.


It is referenced in the stickies on the Rent/Trade Board, obviously because of the fraud aspect of the thread.

I also kinda think this thread, the *annual Christmas Tree Sharing thread*, and *"Hanname*" are worth remembering because they demonstrate the kind of community we have here on the DIS DVC boards.  You don't find that everywhere...not even everywhere on the DIS.


----------



## Muushka

JimMIA said:


> It is referenced in the stickies on the Rent/Trade Board, obviously because of the fraud aspect of the thread.
> 
> I also kinda think this thread, the *annual Christmas Tree Sharing thread*, and *"Hanname*" are worth remembering because they demonstrate the kind of community we have here on the DIS DVC boards.  You don't find that everywhere...not even everywhere on the DIS.



Ah.  Hanname.  I wish they hadn't retired that thread.  I can't tell you how many times I read those first few pages.


----------



## Muushka

Oh!  I just found it!!!



> hanname
> do we have the pleasure of buying a mig at sasatoga speings thanks
> 
> I think the OP wants to know if SSR is selling Russian fighter jets. (MG's reply)



It all started with a mig.

Sorry mods, I couldn't help it!
Shutting up........


----------



## jcf

I would hope anyone renting would demand:
1. a written agreement 
2. references
3. And be cautious of someone offering to rent with few if any post history for $9/pp.  It amazes me how quickly renters jump for lowest price.


----------



## maciec

I was wondering who blew the dust off of this thread!  This is a wonderful DVC/Disboard community story.  I didn't know that it was a sticky, but I do now and I am very glad.  I agree that this thread has so much really helpful and useful information.

On a seperate note ....



Muushka said:


> Ah. Hanname. I wish they hadn't retired that thread. I can't tell you how many times I read those first few pages.


 

Hanname  - just the name wants me to !


----------



## Atotty

I didn't look at the date on the first post. I read it and thought "Oh, no she's done it again to someone else. "


----------



## MoonPet

This is a really informative thread. Thanks to all who have posted.

Sadly, I am from NYC. But I promise you that we aren't all scammers here. Really.


----------



## iluvwdw5

I just sat and read about 35 pages of this thread... so sad!  Too bad these things have to happen


----------



## Googelibear

DMKEDM said:


> The email address? For the poster? No...I used PM to contact her, and then what turned out to be a cell phone number thereafter. I have a name, her cell phone number (which shows her name on my caller ID and it's the same name she gave me), the city where she picked up the money I wired to her, her screen name here on Disboards, and that's it...



I realize that I am very late to this particular post.  I wonder if this ever worked out somehow or was this member never seen again here?   

So sorry this happened to you.  I am one of the people who will greatly benefit from your sad tale.  thank you for posting it.


----------



## JimMIA

Googelibear said:


> I realize that I am very late to this particular post.  I wonder if this ever worked out somehow or was this member never seen again here?
> 
> So sorry this happened to you.  I am one of the people who will greatly benefit from your sad tale.  thank you for posting it.


You'll benefit a lot more if you read the thread past the first page and find the answers to your questions.  The thread is 66 pages, and there is a reason why it ran that long.


----------



## DisneyNic

I am in the EARLY stages of THINKING about renting DVC points and ran across this thread in one of the "Read this first" threads.  I know it is an old thread but I am very grateful for all those who contributed to it and I'm glad that it is still here for people to continue to see it. If I do end up renting, it has helped me with what I should be checking on before I send any money to anyone.

I don't know if Dani or Stacey are still around here, but I just wanted to say that I'm really glad that Stacey got her money back and I am glad that Dani found peace with it all.

Thanks again for everyone involved with this thread!!


----------



## DMKEDM

Hi, DisneyNic...

Yup, I'm still here, and Stacey & I still swap holiday cards each year (she & her family bought DVC shortly after this experience)...since this "sad story," I've had four very positive renting experiences--two on each side of the transaction (had insufficient points of my own twice, so once I rented points for a reservation, and another time did a points transfer, both with the same really wonderful owner who I found here on the Dis; and twice when someone I "knew" (in the cyber sense!) here on the Dis needed points and I had a few extras...of course, the days of having extra points are long gone--I've added on four times, and am currently half way through 2013 points (borrowing)...Disney and DVC are addictive!

I've long since gotten over this "sad tale" and have enjoyed going on 7 years now of DVC ownership and WDW trips...

Good luck to you as you explore your options...Dani


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## JimMIA

DisneyNic said:


> ... but I just wanted to say that I'm really glad that Stacey got her money back and I am glad that Dani found peace with it all.


There were at least three others -- that I know of -- who also lost money to this thief.

The aunt subsequently transferred the DVC membership to the thief, but I haven't checked in Orange County records in several years, so I don't know if she is still a DVC owner.


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## BUDDYBEAR

sorry hope things will work out somehow


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## bumbershoot

DznyDreamz said:


> I would equate a low post count to a starter set of checks (which may not be how they do it any longer but I have had the same bank account for 14 years so I'm not sure).  When I opened a new checking account, I was given a pack of starter checks that had no name or address printed on them and the printed checks were sent within a few days/weeks.  There were not many, if any, places that would accept those checks. It didn't mean that I didn't have plenty of money in the account, I just hadn't "proven" myself yet.
> 
> To this day, the liquor store near me has a sign posted stating that checks under #1000 would not be accepted.  If you don't write a check very often, you might not ever reach that check #. That doesn't mean you don't have the money.



I know this particular post is from a while back, but...the last two times I've opened checking accounts...no, three times...(1 in the late 90s, the other 2 in the 00s) they asked what number I wanted to start my checks at.  So there goes THAT method!



JimMIA said:


> The aunt subsequently transferred the DVC membership to the thief...



That's the strangest part of the tale yet!  Glad I reread the whole thing tonight.



JimMIA said:


> You'll benefit a lot more if you read the thread past the first page and find the answers to your questions.  The thread is 66 pages, and there is a reason why it ran that long.



Aw, can't you give them a hint?


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## Kate and Family

Question to anyone familiar with vacation insurance.  Would this sort of situation be covered (payment made and reservation not made)?


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## JimMIA

Kate and Family said:


> Question to anyone familiar with vacation insurance.  Would this sort of situation be covered (payment made and reservation not made)?


I wouldn't think so.  

Trip insurance policies clearly state the causes they will cover.  Generally, they are medical issues of the traveler or immediate family, but there are variances from company to company.

As with any insurance, it is critical to understand what IS covered and what is NOT covered.


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## cm8

DMKEDM said:


> Hi, DisneyNic...
> 
> Yup, I'm still here, and Stacey & I still swap holiday cards each year (she & her family bought DVC shortly after this experience)...since this "sad story," I've had four very positive renting experiences--two on each side of the transaction (had insufficient points of my own twice, so once I rented points for a reservation, and another time did a points transfer, both with the same really wonderful owner who I found here on the Dis; and twice when someone I "knew" (in the cyber sense!) here on the Dis needed points and I had a few extras...of course, the days of having extra points are long gone--I've added on four times, and am currently half way through 2013 points (borrowing)...Disney and DVC are addictive!
> 
> I've long since gotten over this "sad tale" and have enjoyed going on 7 years now of DVC ownership and WDW trips...
> 
> Good luck to you as you explore your options...Dani



I am so sorry that you were taken advantage of. I am glad that things worked out for Stacey and that you were able to rebuild from that experience. Thanks for posting this


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## DenLo

Kate and Family said:


> Question to anyone familiar with vacation insurance.  Would this sort of situation be covered (payment made and reservation not made)?



I wouldn't think the insurance the DVC offers would cover it because no reservation was made.  And even if it did it only reimburses the DVC member for the value of the annual dues for those points.   As to private companies you would just have to check with them.


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## pegrad1

I am new to DIS and although this was some time ago feel the need to thank you for sharing this as I will be a "first-timer." I wish things like this didn't happen to good people like you. You actually made lemonade out of lemons by sharing your story to prevent anyone else from falling into this. 
Thanks again!  (peace as it should be)


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## SHELL

Thanks for all the positives for us renters/transfers on both sides as i have done it both ways.  in today's world we all have to be cautious and approach things with our eyes open  and i think it will be ok, i have never had a problem either way on this board.  lets hope the negative stories are far and few between.  if we hear about them, lets post to keep everyone on their toes!!


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## CarolMN

SHELL said:


> Thanks for all the positives for us renters/transfers on both sides as i have done it both ways.  in today's world we all have to be cautious and approach things with our eyes open  and i think it will be ok, i have never had a problem either way on this board.  lets hope the negative stories are far and few between.  if we hear about them, lets post to keep everyone on their toes!!


LOL, Shell.  Always good to proceed with caution, but did you notice that this thread began about 12 years ago and that the post just prior to yours is nearly 6 years old?  

Fortunately, the problems here are rare, but they do pop up every now and then. Both sides of a transaction need to do their "due diligence".


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## kniquy

CarolMN said:


> Fortunately, the problems here are rare, but they do pop up every now and then. Both sides of a transaction need to do their "due diligence".


could there be a sticky thread where people can post feed back on renters/transferers? It would be nice to give props to those who are responsible honest renters and possibly give a little piece of mind to those on the other end. 

I recall my first transaction for a transfer was a little nerve racking, but the member who transferred the points was excellent and very timely with communication and making the transfer


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## Deb & Bill

kniquy said:


> could there be a sticky thread where people can post feed back on renters/transferers? It would be nice to give props to those who are responsible honest renters and possibly give a little piece of mind to those on the other end.
> 
> I recall my first transaction for a transfer was a little nerve racking, but the member who transferred the points was excellent and very timely with communication and making the transfer


I don't think the DIS will do that for fear that some people will just tell the world how great an owner they had and they are just using another log in.  And vice versa.

And then a non-owner will get scammed and blame the DIS.


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## tbay

I just happened to find this thread and realize  it is older but I have transferred points a few times and have had great experiences with the transfer process .The transfer went great both ways .


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