# Do cast members still use the constant "princess" label?



## kuhltiffany

Hi there, I hope this is an ok spot to put this.  I'm just a mom looking for some wisdom/experience/advice. 

We are heading to WDW next week (haven't been for about 5 years).  My 14 year old is gender neutral / gender non-conforming.  Last time we were there the cast members were always addressing children using the label "princess" (can't remember what the other option was), which was annoying and caused some angst.  I'm hoping to find out what's typically happening now so we can prepare, I'm worried about how much a bother this can be.

The complicating factor is that we are also coming with a cast/broken foot, so it's likely extra attention will be given, not always a positive thing.

I've gotten pretty good navigating and advocating here at home, but Disney always seems to have such stringent gender expectations which make it more challenging!


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## OKW Lover

Disney is actually very gender friendly.  If the CM's can tell (which isn't always obvious) they will use the preferred form of address.  If they can't its easy enough to just ask them to use the preferred name/gender.


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## WrongLeverrrr

You know how some people have those buttons that say "First Visit!" and things like that? I know people sometimes make those with their own personalized design, but I'm not sure where/how they go about that. Maybe a design/slogan that expresses your child's gender identity could work. Though that would mean you're literally wearing it and I know not everyone prefers to do that.


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## kuhltiffany

Neat idea!  Even one that says "please don't call me princess" would do 



WrongLeverrrr said:


> You know how some people have those buttons that say "First Visit!" and things like that? I know people sometimes make those with their own personalized design, but I'm not sure where/how they go about that. Maybe a design/slogan that expresses your child's gender identity could work. Though that would mean you're literally wearing it and I know not everyone prefers to do that.


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## happymommy

That's a great idea!  My youngest is trans, and was at a conference last year where the name tag also said "he/him".  Maybe one that says something to the effect that confirms they person's gender identity is good, like "gender nonconforming/fluid/nonbinary" is a good idea.  You can write what you want!  I wish I had known before he was 18, but in retrospect it wasn't a surprise to us all!


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## DisLiss

kuhltiffany said:


> Neat idea!  Even one that says "please don't call me princess" would do



Or if perhaps even just "NOT a Princess!" depending on what you're able to fit on a button.  

However, I will say that in my own experience, the cast members seem more likely to say those kinds of things to younger kids than older ones.  Simply because regardless of their preferred gender, teens in general can be very resistant to labels  they feel they are "too old" for.   Cast members don't want to accidentally treat a teen like a "kid", especially (I believe) because Disney already fights the idea that Universal is for the teens and WDW is for the little kids.  I think they try to be "cool" when dealing with the older kids.  

Best of luck!!


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## puertorican00676

You can actually have fun with it. Maybe a not a princess pin with a picture of their preferred character. I can imagine darth vader for example.


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## Lilsia

I think this will be a good life lesson on how the world is not perfect. Sometimes people will call you Mam or Sir, especially when it is not obvious. No one ever does that to be mean. Learning to brush it off is a better way to handle this. The button idea is fine, but a cast member might not look at it, since many guests wear buttons. It is important to learn how to deal with this and 14 is old enough. I know that as a parent, we want an our children's life to be easy and happy. The world is neither. I would talk to your child about what they think and how they want to handle it. It is not worth ruining a vacation over being called a princess.


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## cj.scribbles

In general; yes we do say Princess and Prince when addressing people, not just kids. It's more common in the parks like MK rather than the waterparks where I'm at. 

Ive definitely made this mistake before with children but I'm always open to correcting myself and addressing them properly. It's a little sad to say but it helps to visually appear how you'd like to be addressed. We see hundreds to thousands of adults and children a day and its easy to make a mistake especially if you're an attractions cast member moving people through quickly. 

Wearing buttons and clothing of a certain style can help but if someone does get it wrong just politely correct them I'm sure they'll apologize and change their words. 

You can also choose a term that's more specific than Prince or Princess. Write on their button "Hero". This is also a term some cast members use because it's how we address characters in certain movies sometimes. Mulan isn't just considered a Princess, shes a Hero, etc.

Hope this helps!


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## Archaeren

Lilsia said:


> I think this will be a good life lesson on how the world is not perfect. Sometimes people will call you Mam or Sir, especially when it is not obvious. No one ever does that to be mean. Learning to brush it off is a better way to handle this. The button idea is fine, but a cast member might not look at it, since many guests wear buttons. It is important to learn how to deal with this and 14 is old enough. I know that as a parent, we want an our children's life to be easy and happy. The world is neither. I would talk to your child about what they think and how they want to handle it. It is not worth ruining a vacation over being called a princess.



Nobody is going to Disney World for a bitter dose of reality. This 14-year-old is probably going to spend a lot of their life correcting people on their proper form of address as is, there's no harm in trying to do whatever can be done to head that off in order to have a magical family vacation.


I see the original post was from last year so the trip is surely over by now, but I hope it was a great time! Also @cj.scribbles, I love the idea of using "Hero", that's great!


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## Lilsia

Archaeren said:


> Nobody is going to Disney World for a bitter dose of reality. This 14-year-old is probably going to spend a lot of their life correcting people on their proper form of address as is, there's no harm in trying to do whatever can be done to head that off in order to have a magical family vacation.
> 
> 
> I see the original post was from last year so the trip is surely over by now, but I hope it was a great time! Also @cj.scribbles, I love the idea of using "Hero", that's great!



That's right, they are going to spend their lives trying to correct people. Because Rome wasn't built in a day and people are not going to instantly start using neutral terms for everyone just in case. Plus you can't expect the whole world to change for a small few. It is no different then any other issue or circumstance. And the harm is making your kids believe that the world is going to revolve around you and how you expect it to be, not how it actually is. That does more harm then teaching them how to deal with it. As others have stated, there is no way to get every single cast member to remember that this one person does not want to be called princess. Reality.


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## Archaeren

Lilsia said:


> That's right, they are going to spend their lives trying to correct people. Because Rome wasn't built in a day and people are not going to instantly start using neutral terms for everyone just in case. Plus you can't expect the whole world to change for a small few. It is no different then any other issue or circumstance. And the harm is making your kids believe that the world is going to revolve around you and how you expect it to be, not how it actually is. That does more harm then teaching them how to deal with it. As others have stated, there is no way to get every single cast member to remember that this one person does not want to be called princess. Reality.



In my personal opinion, I don't think a Disney vacation is really the appropriate time and place to make sure your kid knows that they will definitely be misgendered most days of their life. For one thing, they already know. For another, this is their vacation too! And getting misgendered constantly without anyone doing anything about it seems like a bit of a vacation-killer. In general, it takes very little effort to communicate and respect proper forms of address! 

I certainly don't see the harm in letting them believe the world revolves around them a little bit at _Disney World_-- that's kind of the point of Disney World!  Why do you think they call you 'Prince' or 'Princess' to begin with? It's certainly not for the comfort of the Cast Members!

There are surely many wonderful teaching moments to be had at The Most Magical Place on Earth! But I personally can't get behind the idea that, 'the world, in general, kind of sucks' should be one of them.


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## Lilsia

Archaeren said:


> In my personal opinion, I don't think a Disney vacation is really the appropriate time and place to make sure your kid knows that they will definitely be misgendered most days of their life. For one thing, they already know. For another, this is their vacation too! And getting misgendered constantly without anyone doing anything about it seems like a bit of a vacation-killer. In general, it takes very little effort to communicate and respect proper forms of address!
> 
> I certainly don't see the harm in letting them believe the world revolves around them a little bit at _Disney World_-- that's kind of the point of Disney World!  Why do you think they call you 'Prince' or 'Princess' to begin with? It's certainly not for the comfort of the Cast Members!
> 
> There are surely many wonderful teaching moments to be had at The Most Magical Place on Earth! But I personally can't get behind the idea that, 'the world, in general, kind of sucks' should be one of them.



I didn't say to talk to them ON the vacation. That conversation should have been held long before that. It is unreasonable to expect the THOUSANDS of cast members to remember that this person, who looks like a female, does not want to be called princess. This is definitely not about WDW. Unless, of course, you think that they should just stop saying it all together? Do you think that all of the other girls that are called princess and the boys prince/pirate should not have that now because a very, very small minority might not like it? What is your solution to this then? Unless you go up to every single cast member you will encounter before the girl does and talk to them, I don't see any way of it not happening. It is far better to go in with an attitude that it is not going to bother you, just like all of the other people who get misidentified by accident. I think that you are living in lala land if you think that just because you are on vacation that the world is not the same.


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## Chuck S

For trans, maybe you should custom make a button that says, something like "I'm a Princess" or "I'm a Prince."   Non-conforming/neutral could be trickier, maybe make one that says something like . "You may address me as "Your Highness"  Which actually wouldn't be a bad idea for DIsney to start using for everyone.


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## Archaeren

Lilsia said:


> I didn't say to talk to them ON the vacation. That conversation should have been held long before that. It is unreasonable to expect the THOUSANDS of cast members to remember that this person, who looks like a female, does not want to be called princess. This is definitely not about WDW. Unless, of course, you think that they should just stop saying it all together? Do you think that all of the other girls that are called princess and the boys prince/pirate should not have that now because a very, very small minority might not like it? What is your solution to this then? Unless you go up to every single cast member you will encounter before the girl does and talk to them, I don't see any way of it not happening. It is far better to go in with an attitude that it is not going to bother you, just like all of the other people who get misidentified by accident. I think that you are living in lala land if you think that just because you are on vacation that the world is not the same.



I'm sorry, I feel that you may be willfully misinterpreting me in order to take this scenario to an extreme so it can be easily dismissed. Nobody involved in this scenario is asking for sudden, radical change in all people's behavior. I feel that my point was clear enough so I am not going to reiterate it, and as I feel like your intentions in this discussion are not in good faith, I am going to politely bow out of this conversation.

I hope you have a great time on your next Disney vacation! Have a lovely day!




Chuck S said:


> For trans, maybe you should custom make a button that says, something like "I'm a Princess" or "I'm a Prince."   Non-conforming/neutral could be trickier, maybe make one that says something like . "You may address me as "Your Highness"  Which actually wouldn't be a bad idea for DIsney to start using for everyone.



I love the idea of using "Your Highness", my SO actually doodled a quick button idea the other day for indicating a preference for using this! It sounds so classy ahaha


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## SaraJR

Lisa, I promise you that anyone who is gender fluid or trans has learned that "life lesson" already, like every second of every day. Trying to minimize the discomfort during a vacation is not having a bad attitude or mindset. Your comments come off as dismissive and even a lil rude.


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## SaraJR

I would make a peekly reference as they're genderfluid too!


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## Lilsia

SaraJR said:


> Lisa, I promise you that anyone who is gender fluid or trans has learned that "life lesson" already, like every second of every day. Trying to minimize the discomfort during a vacation is not having a bad attitude or mindset. Your comments come off as dismissive and even a lil rude.



I stand behind my statement that trying to change everyone else is futile and will only cause more harm then good. There is no possible scenario that anyone can guarantee that someone will not call this person princess. Making buttons and trying to add a comment on their account will only lead to false hope, which leads to disappointment and anger. People will think, "well can't you see my button?" and it becomes more and more frustrating. Going in with the attitude to not let things like this bother you is a much better attitude and better mentally for those involved. We all want the world to be a utopia for our kids. We all love our kids. But preparing them for the world is the best thing that you can do for your kids. Sorry that you feel that I am dismissive or rude in any way. I am a realist and believe that it is much better for a child's mental well being to learn how to handle these situations instead of giving them false hope that everyone will be what they want them to be.


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## Chuck S

Lilsia said:


> I stand behind my statement that trying to change everyone else is futile and will only cause more harm then good. There is no possible scenario that anyone can guarantee that someone will not call this person princess. Making buttons and trying to add a comment on their account will only lead to false hope, which leads to disappointment and anger. People will think, "well can't you see my button?" and it becomes more and more frustrating. Going in with the attitude to not let things like this bother you is a much better attitude and better mentally for those involved. We all want the world to be a utopia for our kids. We all love our kids. But preparing them for the world is the best thing that you can do for your kids. Sorry that you feel that I am dismissive or rude in any way. I am a realist and believe that it is much better for a child's mental well being to learn how to handle these situations instead of giving them false hope that everyone will be what they want them to be.


Are Cast Members going to slip up sometimes? Of course they will, they are human like all of us.  But they are supposed to notice the large "celebration" type buttons. I don't think they are a false hope at all, they need to be seen as a good attempt, not foolproof, but a tool.  I worked customer service for a while in a store that catered mostly to the gay community, and I still made an occasional mistake on someone's gender based upon their appearance.  If it happens, realize it was a mistake, and not meant to be hurtful, correct them gently, and move on...but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do ANYTHING (within reason) to try to prevent it from happening in the first place.


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## OuterStace

[


Lilsia said:


> That's right, they are going to spend their lives trying to correct people. Because Rome wasn't built in a day and people are not going to instantly start using neutral terms for everyone just in case. Plus you can't expect the whole world to change for a small few. It is no different then any other issue or circumstance. And the harm is making your kids believe that the world is going to revolve around you and how you expect it to be, not how it actually is. That does more harm then teaching them how to deal with it. As others have stated, there is no way to get every single cast member to remember that this one person does not want to be called princess. Reality.





I really don't understand why wanting to be treated with respect is dismissed as acting like the world revolves around them.


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## Lilsia

OuterStace said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't understand why wanting to be treated with respect is dismissed as acting like the world revolves around them.



It has zero to do with respect and I think that you are making this out to be bigger then it is. This is about cast members not call someone princess.  They are not disrespecting anyone by doing that. It is almost like an automatic greeting like sir and mam. Making that out to be that they are being disrespected because they are called princess is blowing it way out of proportion. And frankly, attitudes like that is why there is so much strife in the world. People are too quick to get offended over nothing now. I am a woman and have been called sir on accident, as I am sure others have and vice versa. People make mistakes. And as others have stated, they can't possibly know how everyone wants to be greeted.


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## Chuck S

Lilsia, I can not possibly fully understand what it must be like to be gender fluid/non-specific or non-conforming, much less to be transgender. But I do know that constantly being greeted with the wrong gender specific title must be extremely frustrating, and to a degree embarrassing.  It certainly IS a matter of respect to _TRY_ to address them as they wish to be addressed, no humans aren't perfect, mistakes will happen, but anything they can do within reason to help minimize the occurrences is good, and should be respected. I can't imagine someone thinking otherwise, or that it isn't about simple, common respect.


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## Lilsia

Chuck S said:


> Lilsia, I can not possibly fully understand what it must be like to be gender fluid/non-specific or non-conforming, much less to be transgender. But I do know that constantly being greeted with the wrong gender specific title must be extremely frustrating, and to a degree embarrassing.  It certainly IS a matter of respect to _TRY_ to address them as they wish to be addressed, no humans aren't perfect, mistakes will happen, but anything they can do within reason to help minimize the occurrences is good, and should be respected. I can't imagine someone thinking otherwise, or that it isn't about simple, common respect.



So you think it is better to constantly bring to everyone's attention that this child is transgender? You don't think that that is embarrassing and frustrating to have Mom constantly bring it up? Every single transaction with someone you are going to say, "by the way, address my child as a male". We are not talking about your day to day life with people you see all the time. This is WDW where you probably won't see the same person twice. And again, you are all missing the point. I never said that people should not address people how they want them to. I said that in a place like WDW, it is futile, and more then likely more of a emotional burden to try to correct every single person instead of choosing to ignore it. I would imagine it is more embarrassing to a 14 yo for Mom to keep correcting people then to just let it go.


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## Chuck S

There is a big difference between wearing a pin or button and a helicopter mom running interference.  A button is passive.  I've re-read this thread, and I don't see anyone mentioning that Mom should run up and pre-inform every character or CM. That isn't reasonable.  A passive button on the other hand is certainly something that can be done, and something the characters and CM are trained to look for, and it isn't invasive or offensive.


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## DISNEY1975

Yes they still use "princess", but only until around age 8.  None of my teens have gotten "princess" after they were 10, though I do hear it around me when there are little ones.  I think your 14 yo will be fine.


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## kuhltiffany

Wow, such an innocent question turned into issues for some. As a social worker I wonder why some have chosen to push themselves to extreme reactions about this...

No, I'm not a helicopter mom, just one who likes to be prepared. We're also Canadian and don't have the same prejudices to deal with up here, acceptance is mostly mainstream now, thank goodness.

My child is now 15 and finds it quite interesting to see how they're perceived, and does not take offence to be assumed one gender or another. 

We're off to Disneyland Paris next week, guess we'll see how things are over there!


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## Lilsia

kuhltiffany said:


> Wow, such an innocent question turned into issues for some. As a social worker I wonder why some have chosen to push themselves to extreme reactions about this...
> 
> No, I'm not a helicopter mom, just one who likes to be prepared. We're also Canadian and don't have the same prejudices to deal with up here, acceptance is mostly mainstream now, thank goodness.
> 
> My child is now 15 and finds it quite interesting to see how they're perceived, and does not take offence to be assumed one gender or another.
> 
> We're off to Disneyland Paris next week, guess we'll see how things are over there!



Nobody said that they were in any way offended or have any kind of prejudice against transgender people. YOU are saying that. The issue being discussed is what to say to cast members, and even whether or not to say anything at all. That's it. My stance is that is not practical or even possible to be correcting any cast member who might happen to call someone princess. The cast members are not doing it to be mean and why embarrass and correct them when they can only go by what is obvious visually to them. That would only lead to cast members not saying it at all to anyone for fear of being "wrong". The best course is to just ignore it.


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## MickyLynn

What's embarrassing is consistently using the wrong pronouns/honorifics because nobody has clarified it for you.  

And for whom is ignoring it the best course?  Not the OP, clearly.  What's the harm to everyone else if they decide to reserve it only for those in princess merch or costuming, or find a gender neutral alternative?  

Generally speaking, if option 1 makes a few people uncomfortable, but option 2 doesn't, why wouldn't you switch to option 2?  Isn't that just common sense in addition to good manners?


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## Lilsia

MickyLynn said:


> What's embarrassing is consistently using the wrong pronouns/honorifics because nobody has clarified it for you.
> 
> And for whom is ignoring it the best course?  Not the OP, clearly.  What's the harm to everyone else if they decide to reserve it only for those in princess merch or costuming, or find a gender neutral alternative?
> 
> Generally speaking, if option 1 makes a few people uncomfortable, but option 2 doesn't, why wouldn't you switch to option 2?  Isn't that just common sense in addition to good manners?



Because the world does not revolve around a small minority of people. I rather teach my kids how to cope in the world we live in so they can find a balance, then expect everyone else to change for them. That is unreasonable.


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## marchingstar

Lilsia said:


> Because the world does not revolve around a small minority of people. I rather teach my kids how to cope in the world we live in so they can find a balance, then expect everyone else to change for them. That is unreasonable.



one of the ways we minorities cope is finding and building supportive spaces. Like this community on the boards. You don’t need to come into a “minority” space and explain why our needs are unreasonable. This is especially so on this thread. We’re talking about making Disney an enjoyable experience for a kid.

You’ve heard many times from us and our allies why your comments are unhelpful and rude. Our needs are not unreasonable. What’s unreasonable is your behavior. I think you need to consider not trying to have the last word, and see yourself out of this space.


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## Lilsia

marchingstar said:


> one of the ways we minorities cope is finding and building supportive spaces. Like this community on the boards. You don’t need to come into a “minority” space and explain why our needs are unreasonable. This is especially so on this thread. We’re talking about making Disney an enjoyable experience for a kid.
> 
> You’ve heard many times from us and our allies why your comments are unhelpful and rude. Our needs are not unreasonable. What’s unreasonable is your behavior. I think you need to consider not trying to have the last word, and see yourself out of this space.



I am not "trying to have the last word", and I stand by my statements. You have no idea who or what I am. And this mentality that everyone has to conform to every single person's idea of how they think life should be is not realistic and even borders on narcissistic. Everyone needs to do the best they can and learn to live in society.


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## kuhltiffany

Lilsia said:


> I am not "trying to have the last word", and I stand by my statements. You have no idea who or what I am. And this mentality that everyone has to conform to every single person's idea of how they think life should be is not realistic and even borders on narcissistic. Everyone needs to do the best they can and learn to live in society.



Hmmm, I see you're struggling with this concept, as you keep stressing that we need to get on board with your idea of what's typical.  I'm guessing where I live (my "society") and you live, have totally different levels of conservative ideology . Here we embrace differences and accept people the way they are. We don't assume that everyone leads a cookie cutter life. How sad that you do. Makes life interesting!


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## Lilsia

kuhltiffany said:


> Hmmm, I see you're struggling with this concept, as you keep stressing that we need to get on board with your idea of what's typical.  I'm guessing where I live (my "society") and you live, have totally different levels of conservative ideology . Here we embrace differences and accept people the way they are. We don't assume that everyone leads a cookie cutter life. How sad that you do. Makes life interesting!



That is not at all what I am saying. You are completely fabricating that. But that is what people do now, isn't it? Constantly accusing others of either being racist, sexist, xenophobic, intolerant, etc when they have a difference of opinion. I in now way, gave the indication that I or anyone else, should not embrace differences. Again, YOU just said that, not me. Take away the OP's situation and make into anything else. If someone addresses you in a general way(like society has been doing since the beginning of it) because that is how you appear, and you will never see that person again, then what is the point of trying to always correct people. It serves no purpose other then to make yourself feel better by "setting them straight". I am saying that it is much better for your mental health to learn to not let it bother you and move on. You can only control how you let things affect you. And you made the comment about a cookie cutter life. That is exactly what you are trying to do. I am talking about the complete opposite. Others were posting about how cast members should drop the Princess comment so as not to offend anyone. THAT is exactly what making life cookie cutter is. Turning society into this homogeneous existence by calling everyone by some neutral term so that no one is "offended" is what you all are advocating. How sad that YOU don't see that.


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## DisLiss

Lilsia said:


> I think this will be a good life lesson on how the world is not perfect. Sometimes people will call you Mam or Sir, especially when it is not obvious. No one ever does that to be mean. Learning to brush it off is a better way to handle this. The button idea is fine, but a cast member might not look at it, since many guests wear buttons. It is important to learn how to deal with this and 14 is old enough. I know that as a parent, we want an our children's life to be easy and happy. The world is neither. I would talk to your child about what they think and how they want to handle it. It is not worth ruining a vacation over being called a princess.



Any time we take our kids anywhere, we always go over Plan A and Plan B, sometimes Plan C, too.  In other words, we let them know what we'll do to try to have our day or trip or visit go in all the ways we'd most like, but we also point out that things rarely all go exactly as you wish, and here are some of the ways we can deal with that.   And that's exactly how I took the original post.

I don't see the OP saying the vacation would be ruined.  They just want to try to make something more easily apparent to the CMs they come across.   Last time they didn't do anything to make things more easily understood by the CMS, and this time they'd like to up their odds a bit.  Just like everyone else who wears a button of any kind to a Disney park.     I'm sure they are well aware that not every CM will notice their button, or that they may give a greeting before they can see the button..a cast is noticeable from further away than a button, I  imagine.    But if last time 10 CMs gave the non-preferred greeting, and a button brings that number down to 2 or 3, then I'd say that's a positive change, and we all like to find ways to make each new experience a more positive one.


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## MickyLynn

Lilsia said:


> If someone addresses you in a general way(like society has been doing since the beginning of it) because that is how you appear, and you will never see that person again, then what is the point of trying to always correct people. It serves no purpose other then to make yourself feel better by "setting them straight". I am saying that it is much better for your mental health to learn to not let it bother you and move on.



The whole point is that it makes said person feel better to be acknowledged as they are.  That is a valid goal.  Even if you strip away all of the societal baggage at play here, making everyone comfortable is in fact the point of the hospitality industry, and customer service, and basic etiquette.  

Everyone involved in this hypothetical interaction (which happens entirely outside of your presence) has this shared goal, and is looking for the best way to achieve it.  You don't get to tell either person what would or should be better for them in your opinion, based on convenience for everyone else.  How someone else feels isn't up to anyone else, that much is true.  This is how she and her family feel.  They are allowed to feel like they should speak up about something that bothers them, and seek a reasonable proactive course of action.  You are allowed to feel like you should stay quiet if it doesn't bother you.


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## MooseBucks

We were at WDW a few weeks ago and happily my daughters were called “your  highness” on 2 ocassions both were with characters and I definitely noticed a decrease in them being called “Princess” in general  (they are 6 & 3). Felt like steps in the right direction and hopefully “your highness” catches on.

Our 3mo son was called a little Olaf by Princess Anna And she self corrected herself and said excuse me a mean little snow flake. That was refreshing that while she made an assumption she then adjusted.

I do love the button ideas above! Hopefully they find more and more nutral titles to use so everyone feels comfortable


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## Lilsia

MickyLynn said:


> The whole point is that it makes said person feel better to be acknowledged as they are.  That is a valid goal.  Even if you strip away all of the societal baggage at play here, making everyone comfortable is in fact the point of the hospitality industry, and customer service, and basic etiquette.
> 
> Everyone involved in this hypothetical interaction (which happens entirely outside of your presence) has this shared goal, and is looking for the best way to achieve it.  You don't get to tell either person what would or should be better for them in your opinion, based on convenience for everyone else.  How someone else feels isn't up to anyone else, that much is true.  This is how she and her family feel.  They are allowed to feel like they should speak up about something that bothers them, and seek a reasonable proactive course of action.  You are allowed to feel like you should stay quiet if it doesn't bother you.



Yes because now people are more concerned with themselves and what is best for them , aren't they. People used to be more concerned with making sure others were happy and comfortable. Look at how these changes have turned society into a bunch of entitled, self-centered, rude jerks. It's me, me, me, me, me, and if you don't think and act like I want you to, then you are the worst person on the planet and I'm going to make sure that everyone knows what kind of horrible person you are. That is how people are acting now. In their efforts to make everyone conform to being "a good person", they themselves are being the rude, intolerant ones. It's OK if someone disagrees with you. You don't have to attack them for it. Just move on. And I believe this is a discussion forum where people ask for other's opinion. Why would you feel that it is OK to tell someone that their opinion is not valid just because it opposes yours? You do see what you are doing right?


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## SaraJR

Just Block Lilsia she clearly doesn't get or care that she is being problematic and only doubles down. No one is going to make her rethink and she just keeps going and going. If no one gives her attention she will move on.


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## kuhltiffany

Funny you should say that, I took a look at other posts they have commented on...seems that being a troll and calling people out are their specialty 

Anyway, I asked an innocent question, thanks to all for your support of our youngsters. They will be the ones who make the world a better place where everyone can be accepted and appreciated...



SaraJR said:


> Just Block Lilsia she clearly doesn't get or care that she is being problematic and only doubles down. No one is going to make her rethink and she just keeps going and going. If no one gives her attention she will move on.


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## sweetpeama

I think no matter what handling things with grace is important. 
When my older daughter was 3 she got a hold of scissors and those of you who are parents can guess what happened. Yes she gave herself a haircut in fact it was cut so short that by the time a hairdresser evened it out nothing was more than 1/2 an inch. Even dressing her in pink, dresses, and frilly outfits I got what an adorable little boy you have. I would just smile and say thank you I think my little girl is just adorable too. 
Contrast that with a girl who was in a music and arts set of classes with her for a number of years. For the first 2-3 years this girl went by one name which was feminine and the last year she went by another feminine name and would not only get mad when classmates in a very small group who had known her by one name would forget and use that name rather than the other. Even though the names were no where near each other and the one was not a shortened form of the other. Not only that this girl would go and tattle to the teacher and the rest of them especially my daughter would get in trouble. My daughter was the one getting in trouble because I have taught her to stand up for herself in a respectful way and the instructor for these classes had the attitude of that is wrong.


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## Welsh_Dragon

kuhltiffany said:


> I asked an innocent question,


May I ask...how would your child wish to be addressed on any given day?


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## kuhltiffany

That's the odd part. Such a simple question has morphed into so many assumptions. 

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me or to them. They choose how to react to whatever happens in a positive manner, it doesn't change who they are. My child is a strong and independent part of society, busy with volunteering and helping others. They are becoming an advocate, an ally, a safe ear for those who do not come from a supportive culture. 



Welsh_Dragon said:


> May I ask...how would your child wish to be addressed on any given day?


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## DreamsElaine

I find that they are consistently referring to children as prince/princess/pirate.


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## Kimpossible1

As a CM, I sometimes don't see buttons or can't read what's on them quick enough, so I think the button idea is not that great.   I only use the term princess if a girl is dressed up in a princess dress but other than that, do not use any gender labels.  We had a child come to pin trade with hair down to the middle of their back and dressed in more feminine clothes.  The other CM said "there you go princess" and he replied, "I'm a boy" That's why I don't use any gender specific terms...better to be safe than sorry!  Goes along with asking a women when they are due?  LOL!  Never ask that!!  I think CM's are just trying to be friendly and mean no harm if they incorrectly identify a person.


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## Sara Conkle

SaraJR said:


> Lisa, I promise you that anyone who is gender fluid or trans has learned that "life lesson" already, like every second of every day. Trying to minimize the discomfort during a vacation is not having a bad attitude or mindset. Your comments come off as dismissive and even a lil rude.


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## Disnerd23

Chuck S said:


> For trans, maybe you should custom make a button that says, something like "I'm a Princess" or "I'm a Prince."   Non-conforming/neutral could be trickier, maybe make one that says something like . "You may address me as "Your Highness"  Which actually wouldn't be a bad idea for DIsney to start using for everyone.


That's a good idea!! Lol- recently one of my friends was trying to think of a gender neutral version of king or queen, and ended up calling me "monarch," which was very funny because my first thought was the butterfly!!!


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## DrunkJam

Disnerd23 said:


> That's a good idea!! Lol- recently one of my friends was trying to think of a gender neutral version of king or queen, and ended up calling me "monarch," which was very funny because my first thought was the butterfly!!!


I guess "your majesty" would work for that and not be a butterfly, you know, unless you want to be a butterfly...


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## Buttcracker

DreamsElaine said:


> I find that they are consistently referring to children as prince/princess/pirate.



I ask CMs to refer to me as El Conquistador...they don't like that very much.


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## bopper

Cast members are trying to be more personal but without knowing your name when they say Prince or Princess.

Make a button:

I am a Princeoid
Princess with a red line through it
or perhaps their name (that is up to you for safety)


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## Buttcracker

In all seriousness I don't think they would ever intentionally offend...unless you or your kiddo is the 20th person that day that left something on Soarin......


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## Llexica

DrunkJam said:


> I guess "your majesty" would work for that and not be a butterfly, you know, unless you want to be a butterfly...


In all honesty as much as i really love the neutrality of your highness and your majesty and think that would be awesome, if someone called me that i'd look at them like wait...wha- what did i do? lol it just feels like something you'd call someone sarcastically  before rolling your eyes.


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## Buttcracker

People just want to be pissed off and offended these days-


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## Tiberella626

WrongLeverrrr said:


> You know how some people have those buttons that say "First Visit!" and things like that? I know people sometimes make those with their own personalized design, but I'm not sure where/how they go about that. Maybe a design/slogan that expresses your child's gender identity could work. Though that would mean you're literally wearing it and I know not everyone prefers to do that.



I have a child that is sensory sensitive, at Halloween some people put out teal pumpkins to alert you that an alternative treat is available. I wonder if the gender neutral community could come up with something like this that alerts people to your preference. As a professional that meets with clients, I run into all kinds of situations and I welcome clues. I hate it when I start off on the wrong foot with someone.


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## ChanaC

I just saw this post. I was a CM from 2012-2014, so I'm a little out of date with what's current. However, I never really liked calling people "princess" unless they were a child actually wearing a princess costume. I always thought it was kind of weird, even how some CMs applied to every female guest. Like, when I was in the parks on my own time I would get called it occasionally, and come on, I'm a grown adult. I usually just used the term "buddy" when talking to kids, which I believe is pretty gender neutral. For example, I would say "Hey, buddy, can you look over here for a picture?" or "Happy birthday, buddy!" or "Buddy, can you please get down from standing on that chair (because you are about to fall and crack your head open)?". I don't remember if there was any Disney policy about what terms to use (other than of course totally inappropriate words), or if this was just something that CMs would pick up from other CMs.

As a note, I would be especially careful about using any gendered language when I saw a kit with GKTW button or Make-A-Wish shirt. I know a lot of kids loose their hair to chemo and there were girls with short hair who felt very self conscious about it.


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## Buttcracker

ChanaC said:


> I just saw this post. I was a CM from 2012-2014, so I'm a little out of date with what's current. However, I never really liked calling people "princess" unless they were a child actually wearing a princess costume. I always thought it was kind of weird, even how some CMs applied to every female guest. Like, when I was in the parks on my own time I would get called it occasionally, and come on, I'm a grown adult. I usually just used the term "buddy" when talking to kids, which I believe is pretty gender neutral. For example, I would say "Hey, buddy, can you look over here for a picture?" or "Happy birthday, buddy!" or "Buddy, can you please get down from standing on that chair (because you are about to fall and crack your head open)?". I don't remember if there was any Disney policy about what terms to use (other than of course totally inappropriate words), or if this was just something that CMs would pick up from other CMs.
> 
> As a note, I would be especially careful about using any gendered language when I saw a kit with GKTW button or Make-A-Wish shirt. I know a lot of kids loose their hair to chemo and there were girls with short hair who felt very self conscious about it.



For me it's Kiddo-can't go wrong there with little ones.


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## OneMoreTry

I've been to Disney over 50 times through the years and never once heard a cast member refer to my daughters as "princess."  However, I have a disabled daughter, and with things like meet and greet I just go up to the CM before she does and explain the situation and what her needs are.


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## TheRustyScupper

WDW cannot be politically correct on all fronts.

1. WDW had approx 21-million visitors in 2019.
. . . Let's assume 1/3 were children.
. . . Further, let's assume 1/2 were girls
2. We could presume there were about 3+ million girls.
3. Parents and kids come to WDW for the Fantasy.
4. In the WDW fantasy world, there are lots of princesses.
. . . animated characters in movies
. . . real life characters in movies
. . . costume characters at the parks
. . . guests
5. Thus, addressing girls as "princess" is right in line.
6. If this is a problem, there are MANY other amusement parks.


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## Karin1984

TheRustyScupper said:


> WDW cannot be politically correct on all fronts.
> 
> 1. WDW had approx 21-million visitors in 2019.
> . . . Let's assume 1/3 were children.
> . . . Further, let's assume 1/2 were girls
> 2. We could presume there were about 3+ million girls.
> 3. Parents and kids come to WDW for the Fantasy.
> 4. In the WDW fantasy world, there are lots of princesses.
> . . . animated characters in movies
> . . . real life characters in movies
> . . . costume characters at the parks
> . . . guests
> 5. Thus, addressing girls as "princess" is right in line.
> 6. If this is a problem, there are MANY other amusement parks.


But assuming that people want to be called princess (little girls in princess dresses excepted), is not the way. Assuming things is the worst thing a company can do. Like asking someone if they are pregnant, just don't do it, unless you are absolutely sure.


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## bsmcneil

TheRustyScupper said:


> WDW cannot be politically correct on all fronts.
> 
> 1. WDW had approx 21-million visitors in 2019.
> . . . Let's assume 1/3 were children.
> . . . Further, let's assume 1/2 were girls
> 2. We could presume there were about 3+ million girls.
> 3. Parents and kids come to WDW for the Fantasy.
> 4. In the WDW fantasy world, there are lots of princesses.
> . . . animated characters in movies
> . . . real life characters in movies
> . . . costume characters at the parks
> . . . guests
> 5. Thus, addressing girls as "princess" is right in line.
> 6. If this is a problem, there are MANY other amusement parks.


This line of thinking is insidious and I don't understand it. "Have a thought about how something could feel better while spending 1-10K? GO AWAY! How dare you bring up something that would help you feel seen!" Like ... really, my dude? You can say, "Meh, I don't think it's worth it" and still be far better than the person who says, "If you don't like it, don't let the door hit you."

That said:

1. It's not an issue of being "politically correct" but about not placing YOUR expectations and assumptions on another (further, one could consider kowtowing to a certain demographic that can't be bothered with people living their lives openly "being politically correct".
2. People assigned female at birth and people who are girls/women are and can be different groups.
3. By a vast margin, the people who say they go to WDW simply to live in fantasy/escape seem to be people with the privilege to be able to do that at home, too. People go to Disney World/Parks, *in particular*, for lots of reasons including Disney's long-standing practice of being (not just seeming) welcoming to lots of people (which is also beyond "tolerating" diversity). Part of the desire to escape can and does come from wanting to escape harmful words and deeds and judgments from others. Why should others not be treated with respect because you want to live in a fantasy world where your way is the only way.

And I just can't quite care enough to deal with 4-6. Some people ...


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## Figment of Speech

TheRustyScupper said:


> 5. Thus, addressing girls as "princess" is right in line.


It's even more in line with Disney's values for them not to want to cause their guests, especially kids, to feel uncomfortable, unsupported, and perhaps even alienated.

Or to put it differently, I'd say that it's on-brand for "princess" to be in the Disney CM vocabulary, but it's not on-brand for CMs to use it without forethought.

Many commenters in this conversation have already said that calling kids "princess" isn't particularly common these days unless the child is dressed as a princess. Notably, a few have had different experiences. But most of this thread is two years old, and since then, Disney has added an Inclusion Key to their theme park philosophy. I'd imagine that at this point taking simple steps not to misgender people, including kids, is probably part of CM training.

Cast members are human, so it's always possible to slip, but I would suspect that the _intention_, for most cast members, is to try not to.


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## sharadoc

This discussion is very similar to one I had when talking about taking my son with ASD to WDW, and the changes when they went to the DAS system. I got a lot of "the world doesn't revolve around you and your kid", etc. Now I have a non-binary kid who likes they/them pronouns and usually wears a pin they bought on Amazon when they go into certain new situations where they feel it's necessary. But they don't focus on strangers interactions if it's a one-off, so being called a "girl or boy" isn't as upsetting as it is when someone they know does it. Society genders so many things and having a kid that opened my eyes to that has been very enlightening. 

I hope the trip went well.


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## Pickles516

Lilsia said:


> *** are you talking about? Nothing that I said conveys any antipathy toward trans kids. I have no issues/problems/antipathy, etc toward trans people. What I am is a realist. The world has not got to the point where this has become anywhere close to mainstream. The best thing that a parent can do, for any child, especially those who don't fit the "standard", is to teach them how to cope with the realities of the world. Like it or not, this is the world that we live in. It is unreasonable to expect every single cast member to try to scan every single person for some kind of identifying pin to let them know how a person wants to be identified as. I think that you are the one being obtuse. I swear, some of you live in some kind of lala land. Please, let the rest of us know where it is exactly that everything is so wonderful. Because from what I have seen, nobody gives a fig about your feelings.


Nobody said any of that though. Nobody said they expected every cast member to do anything. It’s literally something you made up so that you had something to rail against.


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## Lilsia

Pickles516 said:


> Nobody said any of that though. Nobody said they expected every cast member to do anything. It’s literally something you made up so that you had something to rail against.


Honestly, this conversation is years old so I don't know why you are bringing it up now. I am not going back and rereading the whole thread. You can believe what you want, I don't care, you are just looking for a fight. Go somewhere else for that.


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## Pickles516

Lilsia said:


> Honestly, this conversation is years old so I don't know why you are bringing it up now. I am not going back and rereading the whole thread. You can believe what you want, I don't care, you are just looking for a fight. Go somewhere else for that.


Weird, you seemed to remember your position with perfect clarity, but go ahead and do you.


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