# Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal



## Hoodie

It looks like the appeals court upheld that Disney is not in violation of ADA, but that the plaintiffs still have standing to sue. Now it's on the plaintiffs to prove that what they want is "reasonable," "necessary" and "does not fundamentally alter the nature" of Disney parks.  I think the last one will be the one that will  fail.

http://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories...ul-autism-lawsuits-against-disney-to-proceed/


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## lanejudy

There's a thread on the DIS Unplugged Podcast forum with some good explanations of both the current ruling and what needs to be proven for the next decision:  
https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...wsuit-over-disability-access-service.3701176/


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## DOREEN1779

I have a question.  If Six Flags can ask for a Dr.s note to validate a disability and the state can ask for a detailed Dr.'s statement for approval to obtain a placard or handicapped plates, why doesn't Disney?  I'm just looking for clarification.


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## lpereira

Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.


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## DOREEN1779

lpereira said:


> Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
> Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.


Thanks for clarifying.


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## SueM in MN

lpereira said:


> Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
> Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.


Yes.
The ADA says that proof can’t be required as a condition of providing access.
There are allowances to require proof for things of value, like discounts or free things, and for things that are not available to other people - like handicapped parking or enhanced access.

This article mentions the small number of guests utilizing a large proportion of ride capacity:
http://www.disunplugged.com/2013/01/16/guest-assistance-cards-vs-fastpass-let-the-battle-begin/

I’ve read other articles showed an even higher impact. The first attraction that was mentioned in articles was in Radiator Springs in Disneyland.
Interestingly, if you read the actual lawsuit, many of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit say they need to be able to have immediate access because their child needs to ride the same attraction over and over again in a row - sometimes for hours at a time. Many of the attractions that were mentioned are things with long waits - Peter Pan, Test Track, Winnie the Pooh, etc. Someone going on those attractions repeatedly does impact the waits of other riders.


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## DisneyOma

Wow, where are these families getting all the money to pay for these lawsuits?


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## Hoodie

What I think is interesting is the plaintiffs seem to be arguing for a right to have equal _enjoyment_ not equal access.  I don't know if that is measurable.  As both courts noted, DAS provides equal access and is not in violation of the ADA.

I can't imagine the mess that will result if equal enjoyment of anything becomes the legal standard.


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## paisleys

DisneyOma said:


> Wow, where are these families getting all the money to pay for these lawsuits?



Guessing Attorney Dogali is/was expecting a huge payoff from Disney so it's a pay if you win situation.  I'm glad Disney is fighting this instead of just paying like usual.  Living in FL, I saw the rampant abuse.  I just chaperoned a field trip there where one of the kids told me their parents would have the kids  fake being disabled (I won't use the word she used and really had to bite my tongue that day!) to get the GAC.  That's just one of many stories I have.  A group of adults  looping Toy Story with a GAC because one  'had a bad back', yet they could golf all day.  I feel like the profoundly disabled have fallen through the cracks due to abuse but I don't know how they could gage being profoundly disabled or not.


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## stitchloversith

As a future law student and someone who the ADA covers I have been following this case with interest. The families are not asking for the same access to attractions as the average park goer, they want their child to be able to ride whatever ride they want with no wait and as many times as they want. Disney does not offer a service for this but Universal does called Express Pass. What I would love to see answered and may never be, are these same families willing to pay for Express Pass? If they would be then maybe Disney could bring the GAC back for those that need it and people who want this 'enhanced' experience can buy it. Having done Universal many times both with and without Express Pass I can say that it does not effect the wait times that much. Sure I get more done on an EP day than without but I also like to take my time in the parks due to some of the issues that the ADA covers. At Disney I get fastpasses and if the line is reasonable I will wait otherwise I walk around mostly. When we could still get the GAC I would do more but the system as it is right now doesn't work well for my needs. I do what I can, I go back to my hotel and repeat. Though the number of Disney trips I take has been reduced from about 5 per year to 3 at the top end. This coming year I have two trips planned only one of them includes going into any Disney Park.


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## Lilsia

stitchloversith said:


> As a future law student and someone who the ADA covers I have been following this case with interest. The families are not asking for the same access to attractions as the average park goer, they want their child to be able to ride whatever ride they want with no wait and as many times as they want. Disney does not offer a service for this but Universal does called Express Pass. What I would love to see answered and may never be, are these same families willing to pay for Express Pass? If they would be then maybe Disney could bring the GAC back for those that need it and people who want this 'enhanced' experience can buy it. Having done Universal many times both with and without Express Pass I can say that it does not effect the wait times that much. Sure I get more done on an EP day than without but I also like to take my time in the parks due to some of the issues that the ADA covers. At Disney I get fastpasses and if the line is reasonable I will wait otherwise I walk around mostly. When we could still get the GAC I would do more but the system as it is right now doesn't work well for my needs. I do what I can, I go back to my hotel and repeat. Though the number of Disney trips I take has been reduced from about 5 per year to 3 at the top end. This coming year I have two trips planned only one of them includes going into any Disney Park.



I don't think you understand the mentality of these people suing. They want what they want, instant, repeated access to any ride they want. And there is no way that they would pay for it since it is their "right" to have it for free. We are not dealing with reasonable people here. Nothing short of them ruling the parks is going to make them happy.


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## stitchloversith

Lilsia said:


> I don't think you understand the mentality of these people suing. They want what they want, instant, repeated access to any ride they want. And there is no way that they would pay for it since it is their "right" to have it for free. We are not dealing with reasonable people here. Nothing short of them ruling the parks is going to make them happy.



I think you are right, I do not understand the mentality of these parents. I know that when I go to Disney there are things I cannot do even though I would love to. If I could I would ride TTA for hours at a time, but nothing gives me the 'right' to do this. Not my disabilities, not my park entry, not having a frend who works for Disney. If it is a low crowd day and there is no one in line I may ask to ride a few times in a row but always allow a 'no' answer. Parents and people like the ones suing Disney ruin the fun for people who need the passes. If this is how they are acting with their lawyers as a buffer I can't even imagine what they were saying to the CMs they encountered in the parks. When I cannot stand in a line, I walk around or go back to me hotel, sure it would be nice to when I get to that point be able to use an old school GAC to do one more ride. I have gone into a park and riden one ride then went back to the hotel for the rest of the day because of crowding and lines. But I would never expect Disney to make an exception for me to bypass the system that every other person uses. But this going in for one ride is why I don't buy park tickets much anymore because I start to feel like I am wasting money to be in the park for less than two hours. If I have an active AP completely different story. I have riden the monorail for two hours one day as a park alternative and enjoyed it. Maybe these parents should do that.


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## mamabunny

Lilsia said:


> I don't think you understand the mentality of these people suing. They want what they want, instant, repeated access to any ride they want. And there is no way that they would pay for it since it is their "right" to have it for free. We are not dealing with reasonable people here. Nothing short of them ruling the parks is going to make them happy.



Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.

It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.


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## Happyinwonerland

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.
> 
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



 But pretty much all children want to ride over and over again, and many will have a tantrum if/when they can't. While I have strong compassion for children/parents of children wih these needs, it doesn't mean they get to set the rules of a private business. Sometimes, life is frustrating and unpleaseant  Sometimes we don't get what we want. Sometimes the good of the many overrides the good of the few.

Nowhere else would a child be able to ride over and over when there are 45 minutes to hours long lines behind them. It just isn't practical in terms of crowd flow. 

Consider this: What if Disney offered sensory friendly days, where guests could have all of their needs met. Say, maybe the first hour or 2 of the day enough kids who wanted stay on all day boarded Aladdin and refused to get off, so that no new riders could get a seat. Would you feel it was fair to be in line behind them then?  Or would you ask Disney to set limits so that everyone got a fair day?


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## DisneyOma

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.
> 
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



While I get the idea you are trying to reach, the contradictions in this post don't make sense to me. So, is there a "norm" or not? You state that there is and there isn't, so I'm confused.  

My take on all of the fuss these parents are creating is that they want the GAC back. And that's not fair, as it blocked out the ability of many other people being able to ride some attractions, mainly at Disneyland, in my understanding. These parents have heard the explanations as to why the answer is "NO". They don't care. So they are being selfish, in the way that their kids deserve _*more*_ than other people, only because they are disabled.


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## Mrsjvb

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> [...]
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



see  the thing is that one of these kids( actually I think biologically an adult now)  gets super violent according to Mom if he doesn't get his way 24/7.  and she cannot control him any more.   she is demanding that Disney alter everything about the park experience to cater to her kid's needs.  and that IS selfish, not to mention dangerous for other park goers.  

no one  regardless of  circumstances is entitled to loop a ride.   ever.  the people in this lawsuit are demanding an enhanced experience.  they are basically saying they want to cram 12 hours worth of rides, shows and character interactions into half that time or less..  same with instant access.   its not fair to the people who stalk the  website at the 90 day mark to snag those 3 covered FP+ times on the popular rides only to be bumped by someone else who plays the disabled card.  

and yes I am disabled although it is physical only and a DAS is of zero advantage to me.  I can wait in lines just fine even though like most other people I would rather not.


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## gap2368

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (*I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family)* and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.
> 
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



@mamabunny thank you for this but mostly the bold I have had a second mom who treated me ( still does ) as her own she helped me though so much and I sometimes put her though a lot.  I would not be the person I am today without her.   So think younfor being there for your own child but also the others.


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## Happyinwonerland

Mrsjvb said:


> *see  the thing is that one of these kids( actually I think biologically an adult now)  gets super violent according to Mom if he doesn't get his way 24/7.  and she cannot control him any more*.   she is demanding that Disney alter everything about the park experience to cater to her kid's needs.  and that IS selfish, not to mention dangerous for other park goers.
> 
> no one  regardless of  circumstances is entitled to loop a ride.   ever.  the people in this lawsuit are demanding an enhanced experience.  they are basically saying they want to cram 12 hours worth of rides, shows and character interactions into half that time or less..  same with instant access.   its not fair to the people who stalk the  website at the 90 day mark to snag those 3 covered FP+ times on the popular rides only to be bumped by someone else who plays the disabled card.
> 
> and yes I am disabled although it is physical only and a DAS is of zero advantage to me.  I can wait in lines just fine even though like most other people I would rather not.



I don't understand the thought process of putting the child and others in harm's way in this situation. If the child becomes out of control and violent in a crowded area or on a movimg ride, it could quickly turn into a very dangerous thing. What if they fall out of a coaster or knock someone down stairs or into the water during this situation. I'm all for equality, but your rights end where another's begin.


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## Disneylvr

Happyinwonerland said:


> I don't understand the thought process of putting the child and others in harm's way in this situation. If the child becomes out of control and violent in a crowded area or on a movimg ride, it could quickly turn into a very dangerous thing. What if they fall out of a coaster or knock someone down stairs or into the water during this situation. I'm all for equality, but your rights end where another's begin.



Are all the families claiming their loved one could become violent if they don't get to repeat rides or is it just this one mom?


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## Mrsjvb

Disneylvr said:


> Are all the families claiming their loved one could become violent if they don't get to repeat rides or is it just this one mom?



I believe it is only this one parent who is going on the record that if Junior doesn't get to loop a ride( I think its Toy story?  not sure)  multiple times  he gets violent.   the rest of the parents are essentially  wanting  FOTL access to  all attractions they wish to do without having to  get FP+ or wait  outside the line  a reasonable time frame as compared to everyone else's wait.  the lawsuit is claiming that none of the plaintiffs can 'wait' at all.  

in other words, they are wanting special access that is not otherwise available to the rank and file.  this is why Disney keeps  winning the legal arguments.


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## redberyl

Happyinwonerland said:


> I don't understand the thought process of putting the child and others in harm's way in this situation. If the child becomes out of control and violent in a crowded area or on a movimg ride, it could quickly turn into a very dangerous thing. What if they fall out of a coaster or knock someone down stairs or into the water during this situation. I'm all for equality, but your rights end where another's begin.




This actually happened at a non Disney water park, it was in the news over the summer. A man with a "cognitive didability" got mad the line for the water slide was taking too long, so he picked up the 8 year old child in front of him and threw the child over the railing. Child survived the 30 foot drop but was seriously injured. The man in the lawsuit is a big guy and could really hurt someone. Lets pretend mom wins her lawsuit and he gets to skip the line and loop the ride, but what if the ride breaks down, what's to keep him from becoming violent? If he's that much of a danger to others when he doesn't get his own way, mom is being very irresponsible and selfish by bringing him into the park. By all means advocate for your child, but not when it means putting others in danger


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## Disneylvr

Mrsjvb said:


> I believe it is only this one parent who is going on the record that if Junior doesn't get to loop a ride( I think its Toy story?  not sure)  multiple times  he gets violent.   the rest of the parents are essentially  wanting  FOTL access to  all attractions they wish to do without having to  get FP+ or wait  outside the line  a reasonable time frame as compared to everyone else's wait.  the lawsuit is claiming that none of the plaintiffs can 'wait' at all.
> 
> in other words, they are wanting special access that is not otherwise available to the rank and file.  this is why Disney keeps  winning the legal arguments.



Our family (daughter, now age 15 and on the severe end of the autism spectrum and additional challenges) are former users of the GAC but the DAS with/FP+ works almost as well for us. She would like (not need) to repeat certain rides (Everest is one) so we do so by getting a FP+ and DAS return time within the same time frame. I am very thankful that Disney continues to provide accommodations.

What does make me sad, and I am not directing this towards you at all or this particular discussion (yet), is that sometimes in threads like this where GAC vs DAS is being discussed some posters aren't understanding or supportive *at all* about providing *ANY* accommodations to those with cognitive disabilities like autism. Sometimes threads like this just add fire to the negative opinions about accommodation or autism/cognitive disabilities in general and that doesn’t help anyone.


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## stitchloversith

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.
> 
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



When advocating for your children would you have paid for an 'enhanced' experiance? If that would have fit their needs better than the standard experince that all park ticket holders are entitled to. This is not to say I am asking if you would pay for the DAS or GAC but if those did not fit your families needs would you have paid for a 'higher' experince level. Like the Express Pass at Universal? I ask because I have used the EP at Universal and see where it would work great for people to ride a ride to their hearts content. I got some major use on ET Adventure and The Mummy with the EP.


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## stitchloversith

Disneylvr said:


> Our family (daughter, now age 15 and on the severe end of the autism spectrum and additional challenges) are former users of the GAC but the DAS with/FP+ works almost as well for us. She would like (not need) to repeat certain rides (Everest is one) so we do so by getting a FP+ and DAS return time within the same time frame. I am very thankful that Disney continues to provide accommodations.
> 
> What does make me sad, and I am not directing this towards you at all or this particular discussion (yet), is that sometimes in threads like this where GAC vs DAS is being discussed some posters aren't understanding or supportive *at all* about providing *ANY* accommodations to those with cognitive disabilities like autism. Sometimes threads like this just add fire to the negative opinions about accommodation or autism/cognitive disabilities in general and that doesn’t help anyone.



I think people in general are not good about any hidden disablilty. I have multiple processing and learning disbalilites that I was diagnosed with late in life, at 28 to be exact. I also have some physical issues that make stading in one place for an extended period of time torture. I can run marathons and stay very active but standing is my issue. Back when the GAC was still around I just took my Dr note into GR and was able to get the pass. I would never have abused this pass though. There were a couple of times I was there with my freind who is on the spectrum and some of our fellow line people gave use a hard time for being 'able bodied' and using the GAC. This actually caused us to start renting a wheelchair that we would trade off who was sitting in to prevent these comments. To be clear these were fellow park goers and never CMs. Fast forward to today me and this freind still travel to Orlando and we use the FP+ and DAS but tend to only get three rides or so in beofre I am to the point where I cannot stand the pain. We go back to the hotel to rest and sometimes try to hit a park latter in the day but depnding on how much pain I am in this doesn't happen. Looking at me one would never know the issues I deal with everyday, nerve damage, neck joint and bone damage, and the processing and learning disablilties. I honestly have never tried to get the pass at Universal because the lines are always much shorter and keep moving. The exception is Jurassic Park River Adventure, I do this once every fourth or fifith trip.


----------



## Lilsia

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.
> 
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



I am not assuming anything. This is in her lawsuit. She has been very public and loud on facebook about expecting nothing less then being able to go on the ride instantly and repeatedly and has said, in her own words, that her grown child will become violent if he does not get his way and that she can do nothing to stop him. There is wanting reasonable accommodations for your child and then there is greedy. If you have ever been to her facebook page and have read the stuff she puts on there then you would see that this woman is someone who loves the attention that she gets from her son's disability.


----------



## DisneyOma

Disneylvr said:


> What does make me sad, and I am not directing this towards you at all or this particular discussion (yet), is that sometimes in threads like this where GAC vs DAS is being discussed some posters aren't understanding or supportive *at all* about providing *ANY* accommodations to those with cognitive disabilities like autism. Sometimes threads like this just add fire to the negative opinions about accommodation or autism/cognitive disabilities in general and that doesn’t help anyone.



I feel like your bolded words are a bit extreme, as the DAS does exactly what you are claiming people aren't supportive about. The DAS addresses the inability to handle a crowded queue. It acts like a 4th (and more) FP+, and when combined with FP+ can get you on 4 attractions with minimum waits, and the ability to get in the FP+ queue of any attraction with FP+. So those of us without DAS access have to decide between tiers of attractions at the parks, and know that some attractions are not going to be easy to get FP+ for. Those with a DAS can get a return time even if no FP+ are available. People here are very supportive of the DAS, IMO. We may not be supportive of giving a group unlimited access so others are getting no access at all, KWIM?  



stitchloversith said:


> I think people in general are not good about any hidden disablilty. I have multiple processing and learning disbalilites that I was diagnosed with late in life, at 28 to be exact. I also have some physical issues that make stading in one place for an extended period of time torture. I can run marathons and stay very active but standing is my issue. Back when the GAC was still around I just took my Dr note into GR and was able to get the pass. I would never have abused this pass though. There were a couple of times I was there with my freind who is on the spectrum and some of our fellow line people gave use a hard time for being 'able bodied' and using the GAC. This actually caused us to start renting a wheelchair that we would trade off who was sitting in to prevent these comments. To be clear these were fellow park goers and never CMs. Fast forward to today me and this freind still travel to Orlando and we use the FP+ and DAS but tend to only get three rides or so in beofre I am to the point where I cannot stand the pain. We go back to the hotel to rest and sometimes try to hit a park latter in the day but depnding on how much pain I am in this doesn't happen. Looking at me one would never know the issues I deal with everyday, nerve damage, neck joint and bone damage, and the processing and learning disablilties. I honestly have never tried to get the pass at Universal because the lines are always much shorter and keep moving. The exception is Jurassic Park River Adventure, I do this once every fourth or fifith trip.



If you used the wheelchair before, wouldn't it help to use it now? Then you wouldn't have so much standing.


----------



## Shanti

mamabunny said:


> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently...It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme...You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted...Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know...


This is a discussion board in which people share opinions, and that is going to include opinions about strangers' actions. That's just the nature of the beast. Parents of disabled kids aren't some special class of people who can never be criticized- that's patronizing. They're (we're) as intelligent as anyone else, live in the same world as everyone else, and should be held to the same standards of good sense as everyone else.

My son has autism, so I'm very familiar with this topic and it's very personal to me. I know what kind of therapies and interventions are recommended and effective for kids on the spectrum, and extreme indulgence (riding their favorite Disney World ride 10 times nonstop with no wait, while everyone else has to wait just to ride once) isn't one of them. They need to practice taking a turn, and then yielding to let others have a turn. They need to learn to follow social norms and cues. Parents who insist otherwise for their disabled kids are doing their own children a disservice.


----------



## Aladora

Shanti said:


> They need to practice taking a turn, and then yielding to let others have a turn. They need to learn to follow social norms and cues. Parents who insist otherwise for their disabled kids are doing their own children a disservice.



Can you say that again for the people in the back?


----------



## mamabunny

Shanti said:


> This is a discussion board in which people share opinions, and that is going to include opinions about strangers' actions. That's just the nature of the beast. Parents of disabled kids aren't some special class of people who can never be criticized- that's patronizing. They're (we're) as intelligent as anyone else, live in the same world as everyone else, and should be held to the same standards of good sense as everyone else.



I am *not* advocating that the parents of disabled children should never be criticized - and if my post reads that way, that was certainly not my intent.


----------



## LadyD

Shanti said:


> This is a discussion board in which people share opinions, and that is going to include opinions about strangers' actions. That's just the nature of the beast. Parents of disabled kids aren't some special class of people who can never be criticized- that's patronizing. They're (we're) as intelligent as anyone else, live in the same world as everyone else, and should be held to the same standards of good sense as everyone else.
> 
> My son has autism, so I'm very familiar with this topic and it's very personal to me. I know what kind of therapies and interventions are recommended and effective for kids on the spectrum, and extreme indulgence (riding their favorite Disney World ride 10 times nonstop with no wait, while everyone else has to wait just to ride once) isn't one of them. They need to practice taking a turn, and then yielding to let others have a turn. They need to learn to follow social norms and cues. Parents who insist otherwise for their disabled kids are doing their own children a disservice.





Aladora said:


> Can you say that again for the people in the back?



I’d just like to point out, every person on the spectrum is different. You can practice social norms all you want, but the ability for an individual on the spectrum to understand and respect social norms and cues is going to be highly variable. Some individuals may never make much progress on this front with all the practice in the world. It’s what happens when your brain is developed differently. 

One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all. People should have a little more empathy that individuals with very little access to interacting and engaging with the world had one way they could spend time with their family outside of the house revoked from them. Bigger picture though, it’s not sustainable for Disney to provide accommodations to that extent, and it just sucks. It sucks living in a world where your needs that you cannot change are too much for the vast majority of businesses and institutions to accommodate effectively.


----------



## Donna3271

Shanti said:


> This is a discussion board in which people share opinions, and that is going to include opinions about strangers' actions. That's just the nature of the beast. Parents of disabled kids aren't some special class of people who can never be criticized- that's patronizing. They're (we're) as intelligent as anyone else, live in the same world as everyone else, and should be held to the same standards of good sense as everyone else.
> 
> My son has autism, so I'm very familiar with this topic and it's very personal to me. I know what kind of therapies and interventions are recommended and effective for kids on the spectrum, and extreme indulgence (riding their favorite Disney World ride 10 times nonstop with no wait, while everyone else has to wait just to ride once) isn't one of them. They need to practice taking a turn, and then yielding to let others have a turn. They need to learn to follow social norms and cues. Parents who insist otherwise for their disabled kids are doing their own children a disservice.


Shanti,
GENIUS POST! You are VERY WISE and always give great advice!


----------



## smiths02

LadyD said:


> I’d just like to point out, every person on the spectrum is different. You can practice social norms all you want, but the ability for an individual on the spectrum to understand and respect social norms and cues is going to be highly variable. Some individuals may never make much progress on this front with all the practice in the world. It’s what happens when your brain is developed differently.
> 
> One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all. People should have a little more empathy that individuals with very little access to interacting and engaging with the world had one way they could spend time with their family outside of the house revoked from them. Bigger picture though, it’s not sustainable for Disney to provide accommodations to that extent, and it just sucks. It sucks living in a world where your needs that you cannot change are too much for the vast majority of businesses and institutions to accommodate effectively.


I will point out that those parties could still, theoretically, pay for minimal waits at Disney in a variety of ways (VIP tours, dessert parties, extra FP+ for club level guests, etc.).  [Yes, I understand the burden of paying for this access.  I am simply pointing out that they can still possibly enjoy the parks in that way.]


----------



## Aladora

LadyD said:


> I’d just like to point out, every person on the spectrum is different. You can practice social norms all you want, but the ability for an individual on the spectrum to understand and respect social norms and cues is going to be highly variable. Some individuals may never make much progress on this front with all the practice in the world. It’s what happens when your brain is developed differently.
> 
> One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all. People should have a little more empathy that individuals with very little access to interacting and engaging with the world had one way they could spend time with their family outside of the house revoked from them. Bigger picture though, it’s not sustainable for Disney to provide accommodations to that extent, and it just sucks. It sucks living in a world where your needs that you cannot change are too much for the vast majority of businesses and institutions to accommodate effectively.



I have a child with autism and I know full well that every one is different. However, indulging my son's every desire does him no good and in fact hinders his chances of interacting with the world in a positive way later in life. No matter how hard it might be for him to try and learn social norms, it is my responsibility as his parent to try and give him the best chance at integrating into society. Not working with him on these issues would be a disservice to him and would be setting him up for more problems later in life. 

Regardless of the successes or failures, it is part of my job as a parent to help my child learn. Some things were easy for him to learn, he walked and read at a fairly early age. Some things were more difficult, he was over 4 (maybe closer to 5ish) before he finally got out of diapers. Some things come naturally to him such as math and some things are hard like making friends. I have to keep working with him and will always have to keep working with him but I can't give up and expect the world to adapt for him.

My son is on the higher end of the spectrum but I have a very close friend who also has a 13 year old son but he is on the very low end. He was a danger to himself, his parents and his two younger sisters so last year she made the terribly hard choice to have him live in a house with 24/7 care. Even someone as low functioning as he is has to practice working within typical social norms.


----------



## lanejudy

LadyD said:


> One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all.



I don't believe the GAC ever _specifically_ accommodated for those unable to wait.  GAC had (if I recall) 6 specific stamps and I don't recall them all off the top of my head, but I don't believe there was ever a stamp for immediate access - in fact, I recall it specifically stated something like "not intended for immediate access."  Now very short waits may have been a by-product in that the "alternate entrance" rarely had a queue or maybe just a couple people waiting.  Especially in the earlier years.  Then FP started, and the "alternate entrance" morphed into an automatic FP at some attractions; and over time more attractions got FP.  As more and more people obtained GAC, and more and more people go to WDW each year, and FP (then FP+) became more popular -- the alternate entrance/FP queue couldn't continue to handle the numbers of guests using it "with no wait."  It's a simple matter of supply and demand; once upon a time, crowds were lower and fewer guests used GAC, now crowds are much greater and lots of people want a DAS.  Disney is known for handling disabilities well, which drives more guests with various disabilities to vacation there.  But again -- supply and demand -- twice as many guests wanting "no wait" results in some having to wait.


----------



## Aladora

lanejudy said:


> I don't believe the GAC ever _specifically_ accommodated for those unable to wait.  GAC had (if I recall) 6 specific stamps and I don't recall them all off the top of my head, but I don't believe there was ever a stamp for immediate access - in fact, I recall it specifically stated something like "not intended for immediate access."  Now very short waits may have been a by-product in that the "alternate entrance" rarely had a queue or maybe just a couple people waiting.  Especially in the earlier years.  Then FP started, and the "alternate entrance" morphed into an automatic FP at some attractions; and over time more attractions got FP.  As more and more people obtained GAC, and more and more people go to WDW each year, and FP (then FP+) became more popular -- the alternate entrance/FP queue couldn't continue to handle the numbers of guests using it "with no wait."  It's a simple matter of supply and demand; once upon a time, crowds were lower and fewer guests used GAC, now crowds are much greater and lots of people want a DAS.  Disney is known for handling disabilities well, which drives more guests with various disabilities to vacation there.  But again -- supply and demand -- twice as many guests wanting "no wait" results in some having to wait.



You are 100% correct. The GAC was never intended for immediate access and stated so in clear language.


----------



## DisneyOma

LadyD said:


> One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all. People should have a little more empathy that individuals with very little access to interacting and engaging with the world had one way they could spend time with their family outside of the house revoked from them. Bigger picture though, it’s not sustainable for Disney to provide accommodations to that extent, and it just sucks. It sucks living in a world where your needs that you cannot change are too much for the vast majority of businesses and institutions to accommodate effectively.



The judge had a very good response to this very point:

The district courts summary judgement this appeal addresses found in favor of Disney because “(1) Disney provided plaintiffs an opportunity to gain a like benefit from its parks that is enjoyed by nondisabled individuals; (2) plaintiffs can all wait in a car or a plane to get to Disney’s parks, and therefore plaintiffs can wait virtually with a DAS Card to access rides at scheduled times; and (3) DAS is an existing means to equal access.”


----------



## piccolopat

LadyD said:


> I’d just like to point out, every person on the spectrum is different. You can practice social norms all you want, but the ability for an individual on the spectrum to understand and respect social norms and cues is going to be highly variable. Some individuals may never make much progress on this front with all the practice in the world. It’s what happens when your brain is developed differently.
> 
> One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all. People should have a little more empathy that individuals with very little access to interacting and engaging with the world had one way they could spend time with their family outside of the house revoked from them. Bigger picture though, it’s not sustainable for Disney to provide accommodations to that extent, and it just sucks. It sucks living in a world where your needs that you cannot change are too much for the vast majority of businesses and institutions to accommodate effectively.



Excuse me for asking for clarification here but I really want to understand when you say some people cannot wait at all.  Leaving Disney rides out of it, don't these same people have to wait for many other things in life - wait for the plane to leave, wait for the car to be filled with gas, wait for the red light to change, wait for the cashier to take their order, wait for their food to be cooked, wait for their favorite shirt to be washed, wait for a public bathroom stall to become available, wait for a parade to start, wait for Christmas to come, wait for (fill in the blank)?  How do these people deal with having to wait for things like these?


----------



## LadyD

piccolopat said:


> Excuse me for asking for clarification here but I really want to understand when you say some people cannot wait at all.  Leaving Disney rides out of it, don't these same people have to wait for many other things in life - wait for the plane to leave, wait for the car to be filled with gas, wait for the red light to change, wait for the cashier to take their order, wait for their food to be cooked, wait for their favorite shirt to be washed, wait for a public bathroom stall to become available, wait for a parade to start, wait for Christmas to come, wait for (fill in the blank)?  How do these people deal with having to wait for things like these?



I never said not being able to wait at all. There is a huge difference between asking someone to wait 5-10 minutes and asking someone to wait 45-60 minutes. You might be able to make some progress for daily tasks that they can at least get done in some kind of context with some kind of routine, but for some individuals on the spectrum, waits beyond that might be more than they’re ever capable of. 



Aladora said:


> I have a child with autism and I know full well that every one is different. However, indulging my son's every desire does him no good and in fact hinders his chances of interacting with the world in a positive way later in life. No matter how hard it might be for him to try and learn social norms, it is my responsibility as his parent to try and give him the best chance at integrating into society. Not working with him on these issues would be a disservice to him and would be setting him up for more problems later in life.
> 
> Regardless of the successes or failures, it is part of my job as a parent to help my child learn. Some things were easy for him to learn, he walked and read at a fairly early age. Some things were more difficult, he was over 4 (maybe closer to 5ish) before he finally got out of diapers. Some things come naturally to him such as math and some things are hard like making friends. I have to keep working with him and will always have to keep working with him but I can't give up and expect the world to adapt for him.
> 
> My son is on the higher end of the spectrum but I have a very close friend who also has a 13 year old son but he is on the very low end. He was a danger to himself, his parents and his two younger sisters so last year she made the terribly hard choice to have him live in a house with 24/7 care. Even someone as low functioning as he is has to practice working within typical social norms.



You can’t expect the world to adapt for him, but you sure can advocate for a world that is more accepting of who he is as he is. I’m not saying you’re not doing that. As an adult on the spectrum, no amount of teaching social norms and expectations can make up for acceptance for who you are. It never gets easier. All the practice and learning in the world doesn’t make it any easier, less painful, less stressful living on the spectrum. Acceptance is the only thing that makes the difference between making it from one day to the next sometimes. I’m 100% sure you accept your son for who he is and you’re doing everything you can to help him. My comments are more for people reading who are less familiar with life on the spectrum. 

Having to make that choice to put your child in a residential facility must be absolutely gut wrenching. I cannot imagine having to make a choice like that. I hope he is doing okay and the family feels he is less of a danger to himself now that they at least don’t have to worry about his safety as much. 



smiths02 said:


> I will point out that those parties could still, theoretically, pay for minimal waits at Disney in a variety of ways (VIP tours, dessert parties, extra FP+ for club level guests, etc.).  [Yes, I understand the burden of paying for this access.  I am simply pointing out that they can still possibly enjoy the parks in that way.]



Yes I understand that, but it is also understandable someone would be upset with something that was essentially once free costing money now. I’m not saying suing is the right avenue, but I understand the frustration behind the change that essentially makes something that was once accessible no longer accessible for you. 



DisneyOma said:


> The judge had a very good response to this very point:
> 
> The district courts summary judgement this appeal addresses found in favor of Disney because “(1) Disney provided plaintiffs an opportunity to gain a like benefit from its parks that is enjoyed by nondisabled individuals; (2) plaintiffs can all wait in a car or a plane to get to Disney’s parks, and therefore plaintiffs can wait virtually with a DAS Card to access rides at scheduled times; and (3) DAS is an existing means to equal access.”



On paper, yes that makes sense. In practical application, it fails to account for how routine bound some individuals on the spectrum can be when it comes to the parks AND that they’re completely different environments for waiting on a plane/car vs the parks. I completely agree that it is an above and beyond benefit that provides increased access, which is well beyond the legal threshold Disney needs to abide by. I wouldn’t say that the DAS provides equal access consistently (some rides it might provide less and more for others depending on the ride and how well Disney is keeping up with ride times) but its intent is to provide more equal access in a sustainable manner and it does do a better job than the GAC.



lanejudy said:


> I don't believe the GAC ever _specifically_ accommodated for those unable to wait.  GAC had (if I recall) 6 specific stamps and I don't recall them all off the top of my head, but I don't believe there was ever a stamp for immediate access - in fact, I recall it specifically stated something like "not intended for immediate access."  Now very short waits may have been a by-product in that the "alternate entrance" rarely had a queue or maybe just a couple people waiting.  Especially in the earlier years.  Then FP started, and the "alternate entrance" morphed into an automatic FP at some attractions; and over time more attractions got FP.  As more and more people obtained GAC, and more and more people go to WDW each year, and FP (then FP+) became more popular -- the alternate entrance/FP queue couldn't continue to handle the numbers of guests using it "with no wait."  It's a simple matter of supply and demand; once upon a time, crowds were lower and fewer guests used GAC, now crowds are much greater and lots of people want a DAS.  Disney is known for handling disabilities well, which drives more guests with various disabilities to vacation there.  But again -- supply and demand -- twice as many guests wanting "no wait" results in some having to wait.



Whether Disney ever intended the GAC to act like that or not, it did. People were ultimately accommodated in that capacity, and it is impossible to say that a CM never told them that it could help them in the waiting capacity. CMs do a lot of things they’re not supposed to unfortunately. Last week I heard a CM asking about a diagnosis of a guest for the DAS at guest relations, which they’re not supposed to do. I’m sure with lower crowds, CMs would let the DAS function with more instantaneous access at times and we’d end up in a situation like the GAC all over again. I know I’ve been waived on through when I’ve gone to get a return time for a ride with a wait over 45 minutes and there was almost no one in the FP line because the CM apparently didn’t feel like dealing with their device.


----------



## piccolopat

LadyD said:


> I never said not being able to wait at all. There is a huge difference between asking someone to wait 5-10 minutes and asking someone to wait 45-60 minutes. You might be able to make some progress for daily tasks that they can at least get done in some kind of context with some kind of routine, but for some individuals on the spectrum, waits beyond that might be more than they’re ever capable of.



In your earlier post you said "...for those whose disability impacts their ability to *wait at all* in a temporal sense."  That is what I was asking about.  Now regarding this post of yours, how does a person handle the many hours needed to fly or drive to Disney, the hours they have to wait for a park to open, even the weeks or months that they have to wait just to go on a trip?  Using Fastpass+ and prioritizing rides and shows with low wait times may be a good strategy for any family with kids or adults that are unable or unwilling to wait more than a minimal amount of time.  For those who qualify, DAS provides them with another means of minimizing waiting on an actual line since they can wait elsewhere.  It just doesn't provide a way to have a lesser wait than anyone else, meaning they are being provided with equal access.


----------



## kaytieeldr

LadyD said:


> As an adult on the spectrum, no amount of teaching social norms and expectations can make up for acceptance for who you are.


Theme park attraction access with no wait cannot, and should not reasonably be expected to, make up for acceptance in real life.


LadyD said:


> Yes I understand that, but it is also understandable someone would be upset with something that was essentially once free costing money now.


Sure. See the many threads about WDW charging for overnight resort parking. Or airlines charging separately for luggsge. Or seat selection.


LadyD said:


> On paper, yes that makes sense. In practical application, it fails to account for how routine bound some individuals on the spectrum can be when it comes to the parks AND that they’re completely different environments for waiting on a plane/car vs the parks.


Genuinely curious how, on a once a year trip, visitors with Autism/cognitive conditions should be considered routine. I mean, the plane ride is fine, but the attraction line isn't? 


LadyD said:


> Whether Disney ever intended the GAC to act like that or not, it did. People were ultimately accommodated in that capacity,


Still, with the GAC printing that disclaimer on the card, ultimately accommodated should never have been an expectation.


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## tcufrog

I have a son who has mild sensory issues, ADHD and is on the higher functioning end of the spectrum.  While I would like for him to be able to learn to be successful in all situations, I have learned that certain events, situations, and activities are not suitable for him. For example, the school he used to attend had a big fundraiser called Bingo Night that was attended by almost every school family.  We tried many times and in many ways to attend it but it always ended badly.  The combination of a loud, chaotic room and the high possibility of losing was just too much for him no matter what accommodations we made.  As a result, we stopped going.  Yes, it can be sad and frustrating but I learned the hard way that putting him in situations that set him up for failure wasn't fair to him and it wasn't fair for everyone else to change everything to make it suit him.


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## DisneyOma

LadyD said:


> 1.You can’t expect the world to adapt for him, but you sure can advocate for a world that is more accepting of who he is as he is.
> 
> 2.Yes I understand that, but it is also understandable someone would be upset with something that was essentially once free costing money now. I’m not saying suing is the right avenue, but I understand the frustration behind the change that essentially makes something that was once accessible no longer accessible for you.
> 
> 3.On paper, yes that makes sense. In practical application, it fails to account for how routine bound some individuals on the spectrum can be when it comes to the parks AND that they’re completely different environments for waiting on a plane/car vs the parks. I completely agree that it is an above and beyond benefit that provides increased access, which is well beyond the legal threshold Disney needs to abide by. I wouldn’t say that the DAS provides equal access consistently (some rides it might provide less and more for others depending on the ride and how well Disney is keeping up with ride times) but its intent is to provide more equal access in a sustainable manner and it does do a better job than the GAC.
> 
> 4.Whether Disney ever intended the GAC to act like that or not, it did. People were ultimately accommodated in that capacity, and it is impossible to say that a CM never told them that it could help them in the waiting capacity. CMs do a lot of things they’re not supposed to unfortunately. Last week I heard a CM asking about a diagnosis of a guest for the DAS at guest relations, which they’re not supposed to do. I’m sure with lower crowds, CMs would let the DAS function with more instantaneous access at times and we’d end up in a situation like the GAC all over again. I know I’ve been waived on through when I’ve gone to get a return time for a ride with a wait over 45 minutes and there was almost no one in the FP line because the CM apparently didn’t feel like dealing with their device.



1. The world can accept and still not give into demands for special treatment that makes it so others get no access at all. People can advocate for the opposite as well - right? Someone could bring a case to court that Disney gives too much free stuff to those a disability. Free valet parking for people with HC tags, etc. With resort parking a new cost at WDW, do people with hang tags pay for that parking? 

2. As stated before, parking at resorts now costs money. Buying an express pass is a choice. Are you heading towards stating that if it was once free for a person with a disability, it should always be free, even if the general population has to pay? 

3. So, if someone has a certain routine, it's stuck that way for life, or ??? That doesn't fly in the real world, or at WDW. Attractions break down, attractions get closed, attractions get updated. Life is not static. Learning to cope with a change in routine is a very important lesson. People come and go, products may go out of stock, characters in TV shows leave, the power goes out, favorite shirts rip, people grow old and die. To allow someone to get stuck in routine in order to keep them behaving a certain way does them a great disservice. I believe we need to give them tools to use to handle the changes, not feed into the routine.

4. I hope you reported those CMs who were not doing their jobs correctly. They need better training, IMO.


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## fabfemmeboy

tcufrog said:


> I have a son who has mild sensory issues, ADHD and is on the higher functioning end of the spectrum.  While I would like for him to be able to learn to be successful in all situations, I have learned that certain events, situations, and activities are not suitable for him. For example, the school he used to attend had a big fundraiser called Bingo Night that was attended by almost every school family.  We tried many times and in many ways to attend it but it always ended badly.  The combination of a loud, chaotic room and the high possibility of losing was just too much for him no matter what accommodations we made.  As a result, we stopped going.  Yes, it can be sad and frustrating but I learned the hard way that putting him in situations that set him up for failure wasn't fair to him and it wasn't fair for everyone else to change everything to make it suit him.



That's essentially what my family has done as well.  I'm on the spectrum but was taught to "manage" my disability in a lot of ways - some healthy, some less-so, always from a place of love and trying to do what was best.  I get overwhelmed by crowds and noise super easily.  My partner has sensory issues and ADHD, so put the two of us together and there are a LOT of places or events that are a recipe for disaster.  The response is that we don't go.  Or we go in a different capacity/way than other people.  There are many times I wish I could go - or, more specifically, that I wish I could be able to go and enjoy it the way a "typical" person would.  But ultimately we make choices to try to balance our priorities and being fair to ourselves and the people around us.  It's not my fault that I have a meltdown if I have to wait in a crowded, noisy line for more than about 10 minutes...but it's not the fault of the people around me, either, and they shouldn't suffer because of it.  

In a way I can relate to the plaintiffs' families, because planning and routine is really important to me: I plan ahead of time to do these things in this order in this timeframe.  When that doesn't work, it stresses me out to an unreasonable degree.  But I have to deal with that every single day.  That's not just a Disney problem; that happens when the line is too long at the grocery store or I have to circle back to pick up a prescription that isn't ready yet or my rehearsal is being held at a different place so my route/commute time is different or a meeting I had planned gets moved to a different time.  To say nothing of all of the wait/hurry-up that goes into traveling to any location, including and perhaps in particular Disney!  Either you are capable of confronting these daily frustrations or you aren't, and if you aren't I'm not sure how you could go to (let alone enjoy) Disney at all.  Personally, while there are some things I would go back and ask my parents to change if I could regarding how they managed my condition, I am so incredibly grateful to them for insisting that I learn how to handle disruption, frustration, and the unexpected.  Otherwise I honestly don't know how I would be able to do much of anything as an adult.  I understand that many of these plaintiffs' children have more severe manifestations than mine, but I still have to wonder how they handle life outside of Disney.  Surely that's not the only place they have to wait, share, change plans, or handle disappointments - no matter how hard their parents try to limit exposure.


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## DisneyOma

fabfemmeboy said:


> I understand that many of these plaintiffs' children have more severe manifestations than mine, but I still have to wonder how they handle life outside of Disney.  Surely that's not the only place they have to wait, share, change plans, or handle disappointments - no matter how hard their parents try to limit exposure.



And while the parents are around now to run interference, "advocate" (and I have it in quotes because what they are doing now is not advocating what's best for their child at all, IMO), and limit exposure, who is going to deal with these issues when the parents are dead? If they end up with a loving sibling, is that person going to be able to balance their own family plus the demands of the highly involved sibling? Group homes are not going to run interference for the multitude of clients they have. The parents need to realize that they are setting their loved child up for a disaster once they are gone. And I'm not saying it's easy, or that everyone can have the same level of success learning to cope with the world - I've been part of the process for over 15 years now, and I've seen success and failure. Most of the failure has come from parents who do not want to follow through at home with what we do at school though, or have the mentality that their kid couldn't possibly be a little bit independent. Luckily, there have been very few of those. And I know they loved their kids, but just didn't have the ability to think about the future.


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## LadyD

DisneyOma said:


> 1. The world can accept and still not give into demands for special treatment that makes it so others get no access at all. People can advocate for the opposite as well - right? Someone could bring a case to court that Disney gives too much free stuff to those a disability. Free valet parking for people with HC tags, etc. With resort parking a new cost at WDW, do people with hang tags pay for that parking?
> 
> 2. As stated before, parking at resorts now costs money. Buying an express pass is a choice. Are you heading towards stating that if it was once free for a person with a disability, it should always be free, even if the general population has to pay?
> 
> 3. So, if someone has a certain routine, it's stuck that way for life, or ??? That doesn't fly in the real world, or at WDW. Attractions break down, attractions get closed, attractions get updated. Life is not static. Learning to cope with a change in routine is a very important lesson. People come and go, products may go out of stock, characters in TV shows leave, the power goes out, favorite shirts rip, people grow old and die. To allow someone to get stuck in routine in order to keep them behaving a certain way does them a great disservice. I believe we need to give them tools to use to handle the changes, not feed into the routine.
> 
> 4. I hope you reported those CMs who were not doing their jobs correctly. They need better training, IMO.



I have never, ever stated that one group should get special treatment over another. In fact, I have repeatedly stated the needs of all should be balanced, and in the case of Disney, I think they have done a better (though not perfect) job of achieving that to provide maximum access with the DAS over the GAC. I have only ever tried to express empathy toward individuals who are frustrated with a system and world that you're constantly battling with for access. It sucks, and it is okay to acknowledge that. Expressing frustration and empathizing with that frustration does not equate to refusing to acknowledge and accept change that happens though. It is the way of the world, but it doesn't mean that if something happens you just have to plaster a smile on your face and act like it is no big deal. I have also stated that while people may choose litigation as their means for addressing their malcontent with changes, I do not necessarily condone that choice even if I empathize with the situation that drove them to make the choice to go to court. Let me make it clear, I do not agree that the current court case under discussion is a wise choice and I do believe that the plaintiff's energy would be better spent on other avenues to address their problems with the system, like working to accept that it is a better overall system in place even if it means they no longer get the access they were accustomed to.

Routine is a continual challenge for those on the spectrum because it is our touchstone with making sense of the world. It has nothing to do with behavior. At all. To say it is connected to behavior is doing us a HUGE disservice. Not abiding by certain routines can cause unbelievable stress in the life of the person on the spectrum because it brings our processing to a sudden stop among other issues, and this is totally at odds with how the world functions because there is continual change so it is an unfortunate reality we're confronted with daily. I have previously said routines can and do change, but it is not an easy process, and for some individuals it is more rough than others depending on the routine in question. Allowing what routines you can to stay relatively static in the life of someone with autism is doing them a kindness. You're giving them peace and the ability to actually live in the moment instead of being massively stressed out. Quality of life matters. Trying to change us is not necessarily improving our quality of life. It can actually make things worse. There is a reason why suicide rates are so high in individuals on the spectrum, particularly those labeled as "high functioning." We are continually taught to suppress our needs because they're "inappropriate," and it eventually catches up in addition to all of the other struggles we encounter and deal with on a day to day basis. You can give someone all the tools you want, but if the tools don't ultimately work for them to make a positive difference in their life, they're not going to help. There is a balance, and what that balance looks like is going to depend on the individual. It's why I appreciate that the DAS is supposed to be needs based vs diagnosis based because needs vary so much from one person to the next even when they have the same diagnosis. What works for one person on the spectrum may be a disaster for another person. What I'm ultimately trying to say I guess is it is great if you're able to give someone on the spectrum resources and tools they need to make their life in this world a little easier, but if you try your best to give them tools and resources to help them and it isn't working, that is okay too since we're all different and it isn't a failure in parenting. It just means you have to get more creative in how you live your life and where you set your expectations for what you and your family can reasonably do.

I didn't bother reporting the CM since I had just spent 2 hours addressing on-going AP and magic band issues and I was at my limit. I was on the verge of a total and complete meltdown, so I had to let it go and leave to go somewhere else to address my needs.


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## DisneyOma

LadyD said:


> One argument I have heard with regard to this lawsuit that has some level of validity is the GAC addressed and provided an accommodation for those whose disability impacts their ability to wait at all in a temporal sense. The DAS does not address this at all. So yeah. There was some loss of accommodation for people whose primary needs were related to their ability to wait at all.





LadyD said:


> You can’t expect the world to adapt for him, but you sure can advocate for a world that is more accepting of who he is as he is. Acceptance is the only thing that makes the difference between making it from one day to the next sometimes.
> 
> Yes I understand that, but it is also understandable someone would be upset with something that was essentially once free costing money now. I’m not saying suing is the right avenue, but I understand the frustration behind the change that essentially makes something that was once accessible no longer accessible for you.
> 
> In practical application, it fails to account for how routine bound some individuals on the spectrum can be when it comes to the parks AND that they’re completely different environments for waiting on a plane/car vs the parks.





LadyD said:


> I have never, ever stated that one group should get special treatment over another.



I disagree, as the above quotes from your PP state that this one group, people with autism, are not getting accommodated like they used to at WDW, and what they need is more accessibility beyond the DAS. What would you agree to for "acceptance" if not more immediate access at WDW?


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## Aladora

Posted on WDWInfo from Orlando Sentinel

Disney fights to keep autism lawsuits from going to trial

Disney files petition


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## SueM in MN

Thank you.
I’m going to this to the other thread about the lawsuit from a few months back. That way, the background and the update will stay together.


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## Smittolis

I think one of the issues (and I understand why it is the way it is) is due to the fact Disney doesn't have a process that validates diagnoses. I understand the DAS system is a 'needs based' program and the new DAS system works for the vast majority of people that would be using it, but for the small percentage that doesn't there perhaps could be an additional level of concierge that is processed on a more official medical level (HIPAA compliant). Not even sure this is possible, but it would be a potential solution as this appears to be restricted to people with 'severe' autism.

In the article and documents filed with the court, Disney themselves highlight their own issue with the program by making the statement that 7 of the 30 law suits are not valid based upon the premise they are not officially diagnosed as 'severely autistic'. A much more complicated diagnosis medical process would perhaps be an option? But i'm sure there are reasons why they don't do this...

Interestingly, as it is a needs based assessment, there is nothing stopping 'rich families' as depicted in the article, from lying about their kids needs and getting a DAS anyway, so not sure what it solves or what purpose that statement serves?


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## kaytieeldr

There's nothing stopping anyone at any economic or income level from lying. Except ethics, morals, guilt, compassion, sensibility... never mind that the DAS doesn't do what the GAC evolved into.


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## Smittolis

kaytieeldr said:


> There's nothing stopping anyone at any economic or income level from lying. Except ethics, morals, guilt, compassion, sensibility... never mind that the DAS doesn't do what the GAC evolved into.



Of course you are correct, the reference to economic status was simply in response to Disney's lawyers explaining that the motivation for changing the rules was due to 'affluent families hiring children / people with disabilities to get to the front of the line'....


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## OurBigTrip

Smittolis said:


> I think one of the issues (and I understand why it is the way it is) is due to the fact Disney doesn't have a process that validates diagnoses. I understand the DAS system is a 'needs based' program and the new DAS system works for the vast majority of people that would be using it, but for the small percentage that doesn't there perhaps could be an additional level of concierge that is processed on a more official medical level (HIPAA compliant). Not even sure this is possible, but it would be a potential solution as this appears to be restricted to people with 'severe' autism



I couldn’t disagree more.  If anyone simply can’t wait and needs immediate access in order for the attraction to be accessible, then Disney probably isn’t for them. 

And Disney didn’t discontinue the GAC only because of the rich people - it was being abused by too many people...the people in the lawsuit, for example.


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## Smittolis

OurBigTrip said:


> I couldn’t disagree more.  If anyone simply can’t wait and needs immediate access in order for the attraction to be accessible, then Disney probably isn’t for them.
> 
> And Disney didn’t discontinue the GAC only because of the rich people - it was being abused by too many people...the people in the lawsuit, for example.



While perhaps there is an element of truth to this, it isn't necessarily everyone's truth. As such you cannot always judge a situation based upon your own specific needs and perspective, sometimes there is the need to walk in someone elses shoes. Not saying I agree with the lawsuit, I was merely putting forward some potential solutions that would cater for the 'exceptions' rather than the general rule.


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## OurBigTrip

Smittolis said:


> While perhaps there is an element of truth to this, it isn't necessarily everyone's truth. As such you cannot always judge a situation based upon your own specific needs and perspective, sometimes there is the need to walk in someone elses shoes. Not saying I agree with the lawsuit, I was merely putting forward some potential solutions that would cater for the 'exceptions' rather than the general rule.



It doesn’t matter if that is their need - if they can’t wait at all, then there is no _reasonable_ accommodation that can meet that need.


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## Smittolis

OurBigTrip said:


> It doesn’t matter if that is their need - if they can’t wait at all, then there is no _reasonable_ accommodation that can meet that need.



Well technically this isn't true, the GAC was a workable solution in theory and thus 'reasonable'. If it weren't then it wouldn't have been implemented in the first place. It became 'unreasonable' due to the nature of the process and abuse of its privileges by those that were willing to do it.... which is cited in the Disney Court documents and the article itself. 

The reason there is so much ambiguity around the process is the adjudication of the word 'reasonable'...... highlighted perfectly by the discourse in this thread and the subjective opinion of what it means to different people.


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## kaytieeldr

Smittolis said:


> A much more complicated diagnosis medical process would perhaps be an option?


Disney adapts to the need of the otherly-abled by making as much as possible physically accessible, and by having a very equitable means for people who cannot wait in line to still enjoy the attractions. A much more complicated process to serve a comparatively  miniscule number of visitors is unreasonable. PLus, with every person with Autism being different, you would need individualized plans for each DAY person.


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## Smittolis

kaytieeldr said:


> Disney adapts to the need of the otherly-abled by making as much as possible physically accessible, and by having a very equitable means for people who cannot wait in line to still enjoy the attractions. A much more complicated process to serve a comparatively  miniscule number of visitors is unreasonable. PLus, with every person with Autism being different, you would need individualized plans for each DAY person.



That's a fair assessment, and it is akin to Pandora's box.


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## SueM in MN

Smittolis said:


> Of course you are correct, the reference to economic status was simply in response to Disney's lawyers explaining that the motivation for changing the rules was due to 'affluent families hiring children / people with disabilities to get to the front of the line'....


The mentions about ‘affluent people hiring people with disabilities’ as motivation for changing the rules was mostly cited by reporters and has been used by the people who started the lawsuit as proof that Disney did not need to change the system.


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## Smittolis

You are correct, I read the article as attributing it to the court documents.


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## DisneyOma

Smittolis said:


> While perhaps there is an element of truth to this, it isn't necessarily everyone's truth. As such you cannot always judge a situation based upon your own specific needs and perspective, sometimes there is the need to walk in someone elses shoes. Not saying I agree with the lawsuit, I was merely putting forward some potential solutions that would cater for the 'exceptions' rather than the general rule.





Smittolis said:


> Well technically this isn't true, the GAC was a workable solution in theory and thus 'reasonable'. If it weren't then it wouldn't have been implemented in the first place. It became 'unreasonable' due to the nature of the process and abuse of its privileges by those that were willing to do it.... which is cited in the Disney Court documents and the article itself.
> 
> The reason there is so much ambiguity around the process is the adjudication of the word 'reasonable'...... highlighted perfectly by the discourse in this thread and the subjective opinion of what it means to different people.



If there are people with issues that make it impossible for them to wait, or accept a change in plans, how can anyone accommodate that? What happens if the ride closes down due to a malfunction? Or it stops while they are on it? A hurricane comes through and closes the park for a day? If a person cannot truly handle a change in scheduling, there is nothing anyone can do. So, to demand preferred, almost immediate access because someone can't wait in line is preposterous, IMO. What happens if they are just boarding and the ride stops?


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## smiths02

Smittolis said:


> Well technically this isn't true, the GAC was a workable solution in theory and thus 'reasonable'. If it weren't then it wouldn't have been implemented in the first place. It became 'unreasonable' due to the nature of the process and abuse of its privileges by those that were willing to do it.... which is cited in the Disney Court documents and the article itself.
> 
> The reason there is so much ambiguity around the process is the adjudication of the word 'reasonable'...... highlighted perfectly by the discourse in this thread and the subjective opinion of what it means to different people.


It also became more unreasonable as crowds have increased and as more people with disabilities began going to the park and accessing GAC.  Somewhere, there is a quote from court that GAC users were a small percentage of park goers but were a huge percentage of people riding a popular ride.  The rides only have a certain capacity everyday. 

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201309/3695/
"This isn't going to be easy for some Disney visitors to hear. But let's consider this a little tough love. The reason why Disney is ending the GAC program isn't because it was abused too much by people without disabilities. Disney killed the GAC because it was used too much by people _with_ disabilities.

As we've written before, Disney did not intend to create a system that gave visitors with disabilities no-wait, front-of-the-line access to its attractions. That's simply the way the system evolved, for maximum operational efficiency. It simply was easier for Disney attractions personnel to move parties with a disabled visitor immediately onto a ride via the exit, than to make them wait and block the exit area, or to come back later.

Getting to ride without waiting invited abuse, which is why Disney adopted the GAC program, to make visitors with disabilities get a card from Disney so that individual attraction cast members wouldn't have to bear the responsibility of deciding who deserved special access. That helped put a stop to groups of kids renting a wheelchair to skip lines, but the system eventually grew unsustainable."


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## cmwade77

Smiths02, the reason the GAC was discontinued is indeed that there was a lot of abuse going on, both in the form of people that didn't need it using it and in the form of guests with disabilities selling their "services" to get people to the front of the line. It definitely wasn't because too many people with disabilities were using it legitimately. But the sheer nature of having those with disabilities wait before returning does indeed end up spreading them out making it easier to work them into the queues with minimal waits on their part and minimal impact to the wait times for others.

By the way, Disney had a card system long before the GAC existed, which had its own issues. The bottom line is no system is going to be perfect, but Disney and others can see the shortcomings and should find viable solutions for them with any system that is in place.


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## Lilsia

cmwade77 said:


> Smiths02, the reason the GAC was discontinued is indeed that there was a lot of abuse going on, both in the form of people that didn't need it using it and in the form of guests with disabilities selling their "services" to get people to the front of the line. It definitely wasn't because too many people with disabilities were using it legitimately. But the sheer nature of having those with disabilities wait before returning does indeed end up spreading them out making it easier to work them into the queues with minimal waits on their part and minimal impact to the wait times for others.
> 
> By the way, Disney had a card system long before the GAC existed, which had its own issues. The bottom line is no system is going to be perfect, but Disney and others can see the shortcomings and should find viable solutions for them with any system that is in place.



I think it is actually both. We have been going for over 2 decades and have seen the evolution of the parks and they dynamics of the guests. There are many many more people with mobility issues going with the advent of the ECV. It opened WDW up to so many more people. Before you only had the wheelchair that someone had to push and so it was more of a hassle to the group and unless your family dynamic was able to push the person with mobility issues, then they just would not go. Yes GAC was not supposed to be a front of the line benefit but as others have pointed out, it became that way because it was just easier for the cast member to put that person right through. Then when word got out you had families start to rent a wheelchair that they did not need to take advantage. Then came the ECVs and with it more and more people making the alternate ride entrances busier. That article did not help with the publicity side of things, but I think that by that point Disney was already well aware that the current system was not sustainable. I actually think that for the first couple of years after they changed to GAC that the amount of ECVs had dropped because there was no more benefit to it and they are actually a pita. Disney had been going above and beyond in accommodating those with special needs, which were a small minority back then. Now the numbers of special need people going to WDW has really increased. Couple that with how crowded the parks are now, I can see why people get frustrated and lie to get DAS. It is no fun for anyone to wait in line for over an hour for every single ride. I don't think anyone should ever have FOTL access(except make a wish), no matter what your disability is.


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## cmwade77

Lilsia said:


> I think it is actually both. We have been going for over 2 decades and have seen the evolution of the parks and they dynamics of the guests. There are many many more people with mobility issues going with the advent of the ECV. It opened WDW up to so many more people. Before you only had the wheelchair that someone had to push and so it was more of a hassle to the group and unless your family dynamic was able to push the person with mobility issues, then they just would not go. Yes GAC was not supposed to be a front of the line benefit but as others have pointed out, it became that way because it was just easier for the cast member to put that person right through. Then when word got out you had families start to rent a wheelchair that they did not need to take advantage. Then came the ECVs and with it more and more people making the alternate ride entrances busier. That article did not help with the publicity side of things, but I think that by that point Disney was already well aware that the current system was not sustainable. I actually think that for the first couple of years after they changed to GAC that the amount of ECVs had dropped because there was no more benefit to it and they are actually a pita. Disney had been going above and beyond in accommodating those with special needs, which were a small minority back then. Now the numbers of special need people going to WDW has really increased. Couple that with how crowded the parks are now, I can see why people get frustrated and lie to get DAS. It is no fun for anyone to wait in line for over an hour for every single ride. I don't think anyone should ever have FOTL access(except make a wish), no matter what your disability is.


To a certain degree, you are right about there being more that are disabled going to Disney World, but it isn't because of ECVs, they have been around since the 60's, it is more because there are more disabled people (percentage wise) in the world today, there are many reasons for this, both good and bad. For example, we are more accommodating now, so people that in the past would be shut-ins or perhaps have even died because of a disability can live a happy and healthy life with some relatively minor inconveniences compared to the past. There are bad reasons as well, but I would prefer not to dive too far down that road.

I do agree that no one should have FOTL (except those who are terminally ill and can prove it, proof could be required here because it is above and beyond providing equal access). I think the DAS is a good middle ground, I do think some improvements can be made that really won't have an impact on it being abused, for example allow those with a DAS to request a return time from within the app and if there are circumstances where exceptions need to be made, for example a 2 hour line at 30 minutes before park closing, then they need to go to the attraction and/or a guest service kiosk as applicable.


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## Lilsia

cmwade77 said:


> To a certain degree, you are right about there being more that are disabled going to Disney World, but it isn't because of ECVs, they have been around since the 60's, it is more because there are more disabled people (percentage wise) in the world today, there are many reasons for this, both good and bad. For example, we are more accommodating now, so people that in the past would be shut-ins or perhaps have even died because of a disability can live a happy and healthy life with some relatively minor inconveniences compared to the past. There are bad reasons as well, but I would prefer not to dive too far down that road.
> 
> I do agree that no one should have FOTL (except those who are terminally ill and can prove it, proof could be required here because it is above and beyond providing equal access). I think the DAS is a good middle ground, I do think some improvements can be made that really won't have an impact on it being abused, for example allow those with a DAS to request a return time from within the app and if there are circumstances where exceptions need to be made, for example a 2 hour line at 30 minutes before park closing, then they need to go to the attraction and/or a guest service kiosk as applicable.



While ECVs have been around a long time, they were not readily available as they are now. We all saw the hoveround commercials and they were very expensive. The rental companies that are around now that rent at a reasonable rate have not been around that long, relatively speaking. Most of these businesses have only been around for a decade or so. You are right that more people are getting the care they need now and are living longer with disabilities as well as there are just more people in the world. The US population grows by over 3 million a year. So many more are born then are dying. All of this contributes to the numbers of disabled people going to the parks. DAS is a fair system. Nothing is ever going to be perfect.


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## DisneyOma

cmwade77 said:


> Smiths02, the reason the GAC was discontinued is indeed that there was a lot of abuse going on, both in the form of people that didn't need it using it and in the form of guests with disabilities selling their "services" to get people to the front of the line. It definitely wasn't because too many people with disabilities were using it legitimately. But the sheer nature of having those with disabilities wait before returning does indeed end up spreading them out making it easier to work them into the queues with minimal waits on their part and minimal impact to the wait times for others.
> 
> By the way, Disney had a card system long before the GAC existed, which had its own issues. The bottom line is no system is going to be perfect, but Disney and others can see the shortcomings and should find viable solutions for them with any system that is in place.



Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.

ETA - Okay, now I see my mistake - it's at Disneyland, not WDW! Sorry to the person who pointed that out and I didn't understand why!


----------



## serenitynow

Also, as the large baby boomer population ages, the percent of disabled guests has risen. There are a number of conditions that can arise as one ages, unfortunately.


----------



## paisleys

I believe DAS was also long in the works to accompany the launch of MDE app and booking FP+ out months ahead, which was years in the making. Launching that with the existing GAC would not have worked with how long the FP lines were becoming due to GAC. You cannot ask people to book a FP months out only to have them wait in an hour long FP line. It's not the story about the rich hiring the disabled, which was just a few months before DAS.  It take years to plan, program, test and launch such massive IT rollouts as MDE. 



serenitynow said:


> Also, as the large baby boomer population ages, the percent of disabled guests has risen. There are a number of conditions that can arise as one ages, unfortunately.



^And this is so true. Also, next time you're at WDW take a look around.  People are not as healthy as they were years ago. It only will get worse as people get older.


----------



## StitchesGr8Fan

The rise of the internet has also led to a rise in people aware of disability accommodations. It has opened up opportunities for those that need the accommodations, but it has also made it easy for people who don’t need the accommodations to figure out how to obtain them.


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## Ciao Mickey

kaytieeldr said:


> There's nothing stopping anyone at any economic or income level from lying. Except ethics, morals, guilt, compassion, sensibility... never mind that the DAS doesn't do what the GAC evolved into.



I think compassion and guilt will go out the window if Disney will allow certain groups of people to get front of the line access and be allowed to stay on a ride however long they wanted. Then the ‘sensible’ thing for everyone to do is declare they need a GAC card.  

Just like when people rented wheelchairs years ago to get front of the line access, people will claim they need a GAC card too.  

Lines at wdw are long enough, can you imagine what it would be like if they allowed you to stay on a ride as long as you wanted?  

I wonder if all of these lawsuits will eventually lead Disney to do away with the GAC.


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## Disneylvr

Ciao Mickey said:


> I think compassion and guilt will go out the window if Disney will allow certain groups of people to get front of the line access and be allowed to stay on a ride however long they wanted. Then the ‘sensible’ thing for everyone to do is declare they need a GAC card.
> 
> Just like when people rented wheelchairs years ago to get front of the line access, people will claim they need a GAC card too.
> 
> Lines at wdw are long enough, can you imagine what it would be like if they allowed you to stay on a ride as long as you wanted?
> 
> I wonder if all of these lawsuits will eventually lead Disney to do away with the GAC.



I cringe every time I read "front of the line access."  With the GAC (or the current DAS) it was/is never front of the line access.  It is end of the FP line access, and with the DAS it is end of the FP line after waiting outside the line for the length of the standby line minus 10 minutes.  Disney already did away with the GAC, I assume you meant the DAS?  If Disney did away with the DAS then there could be a legitimate reason for a lawsuit, in my opinion.  As a parent of a teen with severe, non-verbal autism we are not a party to the current lawsuit, the DAS works perfectly for our situation in combination with FP+.  Having everything on an app has REALLY helped although I do wish you could schedule a DAS return time from the app. With the GAC, parents didn't necessarily have to do any planning really (making Fast Passes, an itinerary etc.). You could just enter any FP line when and wherever you wanted.  With the DAS in combination with FP+ you have to make careful planning very much like any other guest. And you know what, in my situation it actually makes us feel good to be almost like every one else for once.


----------



## Ciao Mickey

smiths02 said:


> It also became more unreasonable as crowds have increased and as more people with disabilities began going to the park and accessing GAC.  Somewhere, there is a quote from court that GAC users were a small percentage of park goers but were a huge percentage of people riding a popular ride.  The rides only have a certain capacity everyday.
> 
> https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201309/3695/
> "This isn't going to be easy for some Disney visitors to hear. But let's consider this a little tough love. The reason why Disney is ending the GAC program isn't because it was abused too much by people without disabilities. Disney killed the GAC because it was used too much by people _with_ disabilities.
> 
> As we've written before, Disney did not intend to create a system that gave visitors with disabilities no-wait, front-of-the-line access to its attractions. That's simply the way the system evolved, for maximum operational efficiency. It simply was easier for Disney attractions personnel to move parties with a disabled visitor immediately onto a ride via the exit, than to make them wait and block the exit area, or to come back later.
> 
> Getting to ride without waiting invited abuse, which is why Disney adopted the GAC program, to make visitors with disabilities get a card from Disney so that individual attraction cast members wouldn't have to bear the responsibility of deciding who deserved special access. That helped put a stop to groups of kids renting a wheelchair to skip lines, but the system eventually grew unsustainable."







Disneylvr said:


> I cringe every time I read "front of the line access."  With the GAC (or the current DAS) it was/is never front of the line access.  It is end of the FP line access, and with the DAS it is end of the FP line after waiting outside the line for the length of the standby line minus 10 minutes.  Disney already did away with the GAC, I assume you meant the DAS?  If Disney did away with the DAS then there could be a legitimate reason for a lawsuit, in my opinion.  As a parent of a teen with severe, non-verbal autism we are not a party to the current lawsuit, the DAS works perfectly for our situation in combination with FP+.  Having everything on an app has REALLY helped although I do wish you could schedule a DAS return time from the app. With the GAC, parents didn't necessarily have to do any planning really (making Fast Passes, an itinerary etc.). You could just enter any FP line when and wherever you wanted.  With the DAS in combination with FP+ you have to make careful planning very much like any other guest. And you know what, in my situation it actually makes us feel good to be almost like every one else for once.



I apologize for confusing the two different cards-we never had to use them.

Both of my parents were in wheelchairs and years ago there were not as many people in wheelchairs as there are now.  Back then, on most of the rides they were able to go on, cast members would direct us to a different entrance right from the start. We did get on most rides sooner than the people waiting in the regular line, so it was front of the line access in a way.

Word got out you could get front of the line access if you were in a wheelchair. You started seeing people renting wheelchairs to bypass lines.  Disney finally got wise to the situation and changed their queues to allow wheelchairs to stay with their group in lines.

My family has been going to wdw since 1974 and much has changed over the years. There was a time when we could reserve wheelchairs at the deluxe resorts and have use of them for free instead of bringing our own. I don’t know if they do that anymore because of the sheer number of people who are in wheelchairs today. 

Like someone upthread said, the population is aging and more people with disabilities go to wdw.  It’s impossible to please everyone and make exceptions for some. 

If the lawsuits continue Disney might feel that it is not worth keeping the DAS/GAC. As long as they provide equal access to all isn’t that all they are required to do under the ADA law?


----------



## siren0119

Ciao Mickey said:


> If the lawsuits continue Disney might feel that it is not worth keeping the DAS/GAC. As long as they provide equal access to all isn’t that all they are required to do under the ADA law?



When it comes to mobility access, they've made changes to many ride lines to allow wheelchair/scooter access without needing a "special" entrance, so that seems to be better in hand (though some who were enjoying FOTL access due to being in a wheelchair might have an issue with the fact that they can use the lines now). But with things like autism, ADHD and other cognitive disabilities, the sheer length of the lines IS the problem and the DAS is the best way to accommodate them - providing an alternative to standing in lines which could fully prevent those kids from accessing the rides at all, which still requires a wait just not in the queue. I can't think of anything that would eliminate that barrier to entry and still be in compliance with ADA, but I'm sure Disney has the legal team to find it if it can be found.


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## Aladora

DisneyOma said:


> Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.



RSR was the first ride at DCA to implement return times. In fact, it was limited to one return time per day. The kiosk to get the RT was a little hidden and I remember having trouble finding it the first tine


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## Lilsia

Aladora said:


> RSR was the first ride at DCA to implement return times. In fact, it was limited to one return time per day. The kiosk to get the RT was a little hidden and I remember having trouble finding it the first tine



That was after they started having so many issues with repeat GAC at that ride.


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## cmwade77

DisneyOma said:


> Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.


There is no RSR at WDW, at DCA and it was one that did have issues to the point they had to start doing return times there, but that was as much about spacing out wheelchairs as it was keeping things fair.


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## SueM in MN

Ciao Mickey said:


> I apologize for confusing the two different cards-we never had to use them.
> 
> Both of my parents were in wheelchairs and years ago there were not as many people in wheelchairs as there are now.  Back then, on most of the rides they were able to go on, cast members would direct us to a different entrance right from the start. We did get on most rides sooner than the people waiting in the regular line, so it was front of the line access in a way.
> 
> Word got out you could get front of the line access if you were in a wheelchair. You started seeing people renting wheelchairs to bypass lines.  Disney finally got wise to the situation and changed their ques to allow wheelchairs to stay with their group in lines.
> 
> My family has been going to wdw since 1974 and much has changed over the years. There was a time when we could reserve wheelchairs at the deluxe resorts and have use of them for free instead of bringing our own. I don’t know if they do that anymore because of the sheer number of people who are in wheelchairs today.
> 
> Like someone upthread said, the population is aging and more people with disabilities go to wdw.  It’s impossible to please everyone and make exceptions for some.
> 
> If the lawsuits continue Disney might feel that it is not worth keeping the DAS/GAC. As long as they provide equal access to all isn’t that all they are required to do under the ADA law?


Before 1990, attractions were not required by law to be accessible. Most attractions were designed with lines that delivered a steady stream of walking guests into the attraction. In many cases, the exit was somewhere else entirely.
Most parks tried to accommodate guests with disabilities- which sometimes meant having them enter thru the exit since it was the only place a disabled guest could get in (alternate entrances). 
Even though many people’s perception was that guests with wheelchairs/mobility devices got on right away (front of the line access), in most cases, it was not much sooner than they would have gotten on if waiting in line. Our experience was that we did often split our group, with part going in the ‘regular’ line and part thru the ‘alternate entrance’, so we actually had a measure that showed there was not that much difference.

Alternate entrances were not much of an issue when there were only a few people with disabilities in the park.
We started coming to WDW with a person using a wheelchair in 1982. We sometimes went an entire day without seeing another person using a wheelchair and could often go a whole week without seeing someone using an ECV.
Both wheelchairs and ECVs were that uncommon.

Starting in about 1988 or so, attractions started to be built or renovated with lines that were wheelchair accessible. Many of those that could not be totally wheelchair accessible were accessible until they reached a point that was not accessible and at that point there was/is a wheelchair bypass. An example of that is Splash Mountain, which is accessible until it gets to the stairway.


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## SueM in MN

The text after this paragraph was actually written just before the Guest Assistance Card was discontinued and DAS began. One of the news stories that got a lot of articles and TV play at the time was about rich people from New York City hiring disabled guests in an attempt to get thru lines quicker. Small World was an attraction specifically mentioned as one where the ‘tour guides’ got faster access because of the ‘handicapped entrance’. I laughed when I read that because our experience at Small World was usually pretty much what these pictures showed - a longer wait. And, most of the other attractions mentioned had Mainstream lines, not handicapped entrances. So, I don’t know if the guests who hired the ‘disabled tour guides’ were just really gullible or were lied/exaggerated to about what the wait in the regular line was. Also, rich people could have hired a REAL Disney tour guide, which would be a lot easier than connecting up with and paying a stranger. There was some abuse of that kind, but I don’t think (from our experience at WDW) that it was as prevalent as the news media made it sound.

The population is aging and there are more people going to Disney parks with disabilities all the time. They simply could not continue to accommodate them all under the way the Guest Assistance Card was working.
This article explains it very well.
http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201309/3695/
And this picture shows what can happen when a line gets overloaded with guests with special needs.





This is the handicapped line for Small World. Most lines handle guests with mobility devices thru the regular line, but some, like Small World, have a handicapped entrance because the regular line is not accessible.
All the people you can see in the photo are in the handicapped line and their wait will probably is about one hour (based on our experience with multiple times waiting in that line). The actual entrance of the handicapped line is in in front of the man and woman wearing orange shirts. To their right, you can see someone trying to get out - just behind her is the main ride exit.
The 'regular' entrance is the the left of the picture, where you can see some signs.
This is a picture from the front of the ride at the same time.




You can see the 25 minute wait posted and see how widely spaced people are in the regular line.
This is one of the things that Disney is trying to correct with the new program.


----------



## SueM in MN

DisneyOma said:


> Wasn't it the Radiator Springs ride at WDW that was getting monopolized by guests with GACs that started the DAS program rolling? Guests wanted to ride over and over again, and it was keeping others from riding at all, I believe. I'll try to find the info online about it when I have more time - my initial search didn't work.


Yes, it was Radiator Springs Racers.
The ride can accommodate 20,000 riders a day. According to this article, upwards of 5,000 people a day were using Guest Assistance Cards to enter thru the FastPass line each day.
In this article, scroll down to the story titled “Line Kings”.
http://micechat.com/miceage/allutz/al091812a.htm

A lot of the abuse was guests using GAC riding over and over again.
In one part of the lawsuit, Disney’s testimony was that in 2013, approximately 3% of guests were issued GAC, but guests using GACs accounted for 30% of riders on one popular ride. Many of them rode it 3 or 4 times.
I was reading a lot of social media when GAC changed to DAS; it was not unusual to to read that someone’s routine was to ride a popular attraction 6-8 times in a row, exiting the ride and going right back into the Fastpass line to ride again with their GAC. These were usually popular attractions with long waits in the Standby line. The writers didn’t see this as abuse because it was what their child expected. 
In one I remember reading right after DAS started, the mother was complaining that they would not be able to do their usual Christmas trip to Disneyland. Their Christmas  tradition included watching the Christmas parade, having something to eat and riding 4 or 5 high demand tides before leaving the park about 4-5 hours later. They lived near Disneyland and posted they did it multiple times during Christmas break. Again, she didn’t see it as abuse.


----------



## DisneyOma

cmwade77 said:


> There is no RSR at WDW, at DCA and it was one that did have issues to the point they had to start doing return times there, but that was as much about spacing out wheelchairs as it was keeping things fair.



I think SueM has provided an excellent link in her excellent post that clarifies what I was stating. And yes, I know it was at Disneyland. It doesn't matter where it is. I was pointing out that it was the catalyst. The GAC was taking over the FP queues, so the policy needed to be revamped. It had nothing to do with guests in wheelchairs, from all that I have read about it. Do you have more articles and info we could read that talks about wheelchairs? I'd be interested.

cmwade77 - my apologies - I see now that I stated WDW instead of Disneyland, and you were just correcting my mistake! Now I get it! (whacks self on forehead)


----------



## marcyleecorgan

This is probably not-so-classy ...... but this appeal process is taking so long!  However will the complainants be able to WAIT that long?!?!


----------



## ttintagel

The case of Radiator Springs always annoys me a little, because the ride was built so recently that they had the opportunity to make the queue a lot more accessible and  mainstreamed than it is, and for whatever reason they chose not to. And then they acted all surprised when people seeking alternate access became an untenable problem right out of the gate. I know that's not the only issue at play here; it's just a particular pet peeve of mine.


And if there really was as much use of the GAC by people who didn't really need it, on the scale they claim, I think Disney has to accept *some* of the blame for that instead of painting themselves as the innocent, irreproachable victims of greedy, unscrupulous, scheming guests. The guests weren't going behind the counter and getting the GAC's for themselves - it was Disney employees handing them out without first asking the right questions about the guests’ needs. Or reacting appropriately to the answers.


As it stands now, Disney's position is that if your stamina- or mobility-related need can be met with an assistive device then you don't need the DAS. They could have been training their CM's and leads at Guest Services to stick by this policy many years earlier than they did. If they had, they wouldn't have ended up with the overuse problem because CM's wouldn't have been handing them out like candy at Halloween.


On another point - my mind keeps going back to the boy I read about who had been completely non-verbal until he rode a certain Disney attraction. (May have been Snow White's Adventures? I can't remember exactly, and Uncle Google is failing me.) Riding it repeatedly did for him what years of therapy hadn't been able to do. I don't know. I don't begrudge Make-a-Wish kids their Genie Passes, and I wouldn't begrudge it if there were some kind of program that kids with extreme but non-fatal conditions could get into if it would have that profound an effect on their well-being. It would have to be as carefully managed as Make-a-Wish is, and since I can see where it could be considered superior access it would require medical documentation. I don't know; maybe that would still be enough kids to disrupt regular operations; I don't have the numbers and might not understand them if I did. I'm just not convinced it's a completely black-and-white question.


----------



## EastYorkDisneyFan

T


ttintagel said:


> The case of Radiator Springs always annoys me a little, because the ride was built so recently that they had the opportunity to make the queue a lot more accessible and mainstreamed than it is, and for whatever reason they chose not to.


The queue for Indiana Jones in Disneyland was built so that everyone could access it but people that were used to being able to go through the exit to get on rides for the disabled access complained about it plus they added FastPass which made the front part of the line much smaller than it was originally built


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## DisneyOma

ttintagel said:


> The case of Radiator Springs always annoys me a little, because the ride was built so recently that they had the opportunity to make the queue a lot more accessible and  mainstreamed than it is, and for whatever reason they chose not to. And then they acted all surprised when people seeking alternate access became an untenable problem right out of the gate. I know that's not the only issue at play here; it's just a particular pet peeve of mine.
> 
> 
> And if there really was as much use of the GAC by people who didn't really need it, on the scale they claim, I think Disney has to accept *some* of the blame for that instead of painting themselves as the innocent, irreproachable victims of greedy, unscrupulous, scheming guests. The guests weren't going behind the counter and getting the GAC's for themselves - it was Disney employees handing them out without first asking the right questions about the guests’ needs. Or reacting appropriately to the answers.
> 
> 
> As it stands now, Disney's position is that if your stamina- or mobility-related need can be met with an assistive device then you don't need the DAS. They could have been training their CM's and leads at Guest Services to stick by this policy many years earlier than they did. If they had, they wouldn't have ended up with the overuse problem because CM's wouldn't have been handing them out like candy at Halloween.
> 
> 
> On another point - my mind keeps going back to the boy I read about who had been completely non-verbal until he rode a certain Disney attraction. (May have been Snow White's Adventures? I can't remember exactly, and Uncle Google is failing me.) Riding it repeatedly did for him what years of therapy hadn't been able to do. I don't know. I don't begrudge Make-a-Wish kids their Genie Passes, and I wouldn't begrudge it if there were some kind of program that kids with extreme but non-fatal conditions could get into if it would have that profound an effect on their well-being. It would have to be as carefully managed as Make-a-Wish is, and since I can see where it could be considered superior access it would require medical documentation. I don't know; maybe that would still be enough kids to disrupt regular operations; I don't have the numbers and might not understand them if I did. I'm just not convinced it's a completely black-and-white question.



I believe that while the queue was accessible to mobility devices, it was not accessible to those who had issues with the time it took to wait. How do you make an accessible queue for those who just can't handle 2-3 hours in a queue?

The request for DAS is the same as the request for a certain GAC stamp. It had to do with the waiting, not the actual queue access. 

And now that Snow White's Scary Adventure no longer exists, then what? We can't keep all attractions because it was the time one person talked for the first time. Anecdotal evidence has to be used carefully, KWIM? What does the kid saying his first word have to do with the DAS/GAC issue?


----------



## MaryLovesPoohBear

DisneyOma said:


> And now that Snow White's Scary Adventure no longer exists, then what? We can't keep all attractions because it was the time one person talked for the first time. Anecdotal evidence has to be used carefully, KWIM? What does the kid saying his first word have to do with the DAS/GAC issue?


I believe it was less the actual ride and more the fact that they child could ride over and over without a wait.  

And, at least what I got from the post, was that if it helps just one child to finally speak, we should allow children that want to, to ride over and over.  In case one of them has a breakthrough.


----------



## DisneyOma

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> I believe it was less the actual ride and more the fact that they child could ride over and over without a wait.
> 
> And, at least what I got from the post, was that if it helps just one child to finally speak, we should allow children that want to, to ride over and over.  In case one of them has a breakthrough.



That would be impossible to do though.


----------



## MaryLovesPoohBear

DisneyOma said:


> That would be impossible to do though.


What I should have said, was those that have a doctor's note. 

And if Disney is giving special access they can say that the only way to get it is with a note.

I don't agree with what the poster said.  Just explaining what I got from it.

I rarely agree with anything that starts with "if it helps just one" or if it saves just one.'  If we lived our lives that way, we would never get into a car or ride in an airplane.


----------



## DisneyOma

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> What I should have said, was those that have a doctor's note.
> 
> And if Disney is giving special access they can say that they only way to get it is with a note.
> 
> I don't agree with what the poster said.  Just explaining what I got from it.
> 
> I rarely agree with anything that starts with "if it helps just one" or if it saves just one.'  If we lived our lives that way, we would never get into a car or ride in an airplane.



Thanks for the clarification! 

I believe these parents pursuing this lawsuit love their kids. I believe they want their kids to be happy. But I really believe they are so tied up in the immediate, in the instant, in the moment, that they are not looking down the road. And having worked 15+ years with families just like these, I know how hard it is, how hard it is to move beyond the now, when the now is so overwhelming. I get the advocacy push too. But sometimes that can be all-consuming, and the "my child needs" doesn't get a fresh examination, at least as not as often as it should. Then, when a layer of pity gets put over it by the general public, it blinds as well. It's a very hard balance, and one that will be interesting to see develop as these lawsuits continue.


----------



## kaytieeldr

ttintagel said:


> I think Disney has to accept *some* of the blame for that


Which they have remedied as much as possible by eliminating the GAC, creating the DAS, and adhering to specific guidelines for issuance.



MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> What I should have said, was those that have a doctor's note.
> 
> And if Disney is giving special access they can say that the only way to get it is with a note.


requiring a doctor's note would violate the ADA. Plus, you would need medically trained CMsto evaluate the validity of the note/needs.


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## MaryLovesPoohBear

kaytieeldr said:


> requiring a doctor's note would violate the ADA. Plus, you would need medically trained CMsto evaluate the validity of the note/needs.


A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.)  Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.


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## kaytieeldr

I didn't see anything on the request form specifying a doctor's note, but it does require doctor contact information. But i would expect MAW has personnel on staff to evaluate the need and validity, plus they are providin g greater-than-equal access.


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## Jake

Sorry, somebody repeatedly riding a ride, keep other people off of that ride.  Everyone buys the same admission ticket and paid the same price.  Everyone should have the same value for there money.  We go from, understanding that disabled people should get a break, to them taking over our enjoyment.  So 100 disable kids can take over a ride for the hold day ?


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## DisneyOma

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.)  Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.



MAW is a process - from doctors, to a board that evaluates, etc. People who apply for MAW sign a waiver, etc.

So, you want people to be able to have unlimited, special access because a doctor says so? What does a doctor have to do with going to a theme park on vacation? Are you stating that we need to have policies (and then laws) where a person with a disability gets preferred access to a privately owned entity?


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## SueM in MN

kaytieeldr said:


> I didn't see anything on the request form specifying a doctor's note, but it does require doctor contact information. But i would expect MAW has personnel on staff to evaluate the need and validity, plus they are providin g greater-than-equal access.


MAW is verified very carefully before a wish is granted.
It does require contact with the child’s physician(s) who verify that the child has a life threatening condition.

Just requiring a letter from a doctor to get a ‘higer level’ of access than is given by DAS would not end up solving much because it would still be subject to abuse.
There would be nothing to stop people who wanted to cheat from writing up their own official looking letter. 30 years ago, most people didn’t have access to computers and printers that could create and print a professional looking letter. But, now, anyone with a computer ans internet access can create and print out a very official looking letter on official looking letterhead. 

As Cheshire Figment used to write, if someone brings in a letter from ‘Dr. Smith’, how do you verify that Dr. Smith exists? And that xxxx xxxxxx is a patient of his? And that Dr. Smith actually wrote the letter?

A long time ago, when this Board first started, many people did bring letter, which Guest Relations CMs did not want to look at, but some people read the letters to the CMs. I’ve read posts from people whose doctor or a relatives offered to write a ‘disability letter’ when the doctor knew full well that none of the children were disabled. One memorable reason was ‘anyone with 3 small kids deserves not to wait.’

Most of the letters were basically form letters, “My patient has xxxxxx. Please expedite his access as much as possible.” I heard many people reading them to CMs. Some of the people I heard and read about got really mad when CMs tried to ask about their needs. And, I know there was a lot of discussion on line about what to say to get the ‘best stamps’ on the old GAC (Guest Assistance Cards). We did not allow that kind of discussion on this board, but many did and it was very easy to find scripts to use. And, there were people with nondisabled people who used those scripts to get GACs. People were also selling them eBay or getting one for a family member who was legitimately disabled, but that person rode nothing and it was used by the nondisabled members of their family to ride.


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## tcufrog

I think one of the reasons DL and WDW are so popular with people who have disabilities is because it's much more accommodating of different disabilities than most places you'd want to go on vacation.  I think that's a good thing.  The problem I see is this: How does Disney continue with this admirable mission without being so accommodating that the services are being abused and/or making it difficult for everyone else to enjoy the parks too?


----------



## SueM in MN

The person whose autistic son (Ben) had breakthroughs after visiting Disney World and riding Snow White actually wrote a series of blog posts and eventually a book about their experiences.
You can find the book on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/3500-Autistic-Ten-Year-Romance-White/dp/1482093308

And, there was quite a bit of news coverage when Snow White’s Scary Adventures closed and he was honored with being last to ride it:
https://attractionsmagazine.com/fan...n-autistic-teen-given-the-honor-of-last-ride/

This is a link to the blogpost that Ben’s father wrote about their experience the last night before Snow White’s Scary Adventure closed:
http://www.shmoolok.com/Blog/Post/340/SWSA-Final-Night-Part-1-The-Beginning-of-the-End

It was amazing to read and the family acknowledged that he would not have been able to ride it 3500 times in 10 years without being able to use GAC over and over again to ride without stopping.
But, they also had worked with him over the years to ‘wean’ him from using GAC. That was also interesting reading about - in many of ways, he was very similar to the people in the lawsuit. He started out riding a small number of attractions in a certain order and certain number of times each, having certain snacks at particular times in the order.

While it was certainly heartwarming to read, it was also easy to see one of the issues with GAC - when there are too many people getting immediate and unlimited access, things come to a crawl.
My daughter has multiple needs besides mobility that we used GAC and now DAS for. We always got Fastpasses if possible (the back of the GAC Card said guests using GAC were expected to). Many times when we were in the Fastpass Line using our Fastpasses, ALL the other people around us were using GACs. Many of them had the GAC Card on a lanyard around their neck, so it was pretty obvious and, we saw people ahead of us show their GAC Card. 
That accounted for a pretty big chunk of the line.


----------



## Lauren in NC

I've been thinking about this thread for a while.  We went to a harvest festival at my son's school a few weeks ago, and while there, a certain older student (that we know is on the spectrum) cut in front of us several times when we were the next in line.  I tried to gently redirect him to the back of the line, but he didn't understand, and his dad (who usually accompanies him) was nowhere in sight.  My son (who's also on the spectrum and very concerned with following rules) was confused and worried that his friend was "breaking the rules."  It was frustrating for us because we've spent so much time and effort on helping him develop strategies for waiting in line, and this was a great place to practice the "waiting for something really exciting" that he'd need for our next trip to DL, as opposed to, you know, waiting in line at the grocery store 

I don't want to pretend that I have some magical knowledge of what any person on the spectrum is capable of - or what exhausted parents are capable of - but I wonder what we're teaching when we don't even help a kid attempt to wait in even the relatively short line for a school bouncy house.


----------



## ttintagel

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.)  Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.



Right - if such a program ever were to exist, it would probably need to be run by an outside nonprofit company the same way MAW is. And their scrutiny would have to be rigorous. It would obviously need to be a very carefully-designed program with extremely high criteria.


----------



## Betty Rohrer

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> A doctor's note or whatever they require for Wish kids. (Which of course isn't just a doctor's note.)  Obviously it works for Wish kids and doesn't violate ADA.


the Doctor info is required to be granted the Wish Trip and is not used at the theme parks. doesn't violate ADA because it is not something that anyone can get. an example parent decides he wants his child to this special MAW trip for his normal kid. he needs a doctor to tell MAW why this child should have this special trip. which is why I understand this doesn't violate ADA


----------



## MaryLovesPoohBear

DisneyOma said:


> MAW is a process - from doctors, to a board that evaluates, etc. People who apply for MAW sign a waiver, etc.
> 
> So, you want people to be able to have unlimited, special access because a doctor says so? What does a doctor have to do with going to a theme park on vacation? Are you stating that we need to have policies (and then laws) where a person with a disability gets preferred access to a privately owned entity?


Oh my gosh, really?????

As I have said, I was simply explaining what someone *else* wrote. 

What I believe?  I believe that way too many people receive the DAS and it is close to becoming what the GAC was. 

It doesn't take but a google search to find a "script" of what to say and presto, you get one. 

it will take a while, look at how long the GAC was a problem, and Disney will be changing their system again.


----------



## Lilsia

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> Oh my gosh, really?????
> 
> As I have said, I was simply explaining what someone *else* wrote.
> 
> What I believe?  I believe that way too many people receive the DAS and it is close to becoming what the GAC was.
> 
> It doesn't take but a google search to find a "script" of what to say and presto, you get one.
> 
> it will take a while, look at how long the GAC was a problem, and Disney will be changing their system again.



I don't think DAS will be as bad at GAC was just because of how it is set up. The people returning for that ride is so much more spread out since they are given a time to come back. Not like when everyone with GAC  just went to the most popular rides and went on them over and over.


----------



## lanejudy

GAC had other problems besides just people riding back-to-back-to-back.  In fact, I would say the majority of GAC-holders did not use it in that manner.  That’s not to say looping wasn’t one problem that was resolved with the change from GAC to DAS.  The GAC program was unsustainable due to the sheer number of guests using a GAC.  As I recall, CMs rarely checked the stamp, just saw the card.


----------



## DisneyOma

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> Oh my gosh, really?????
> 
> As I have said, I was simply explaining what someone *else* wrote.
> 
> What I believe?  I believe that way too many people receive the DAS and it is close to becoming what the GAC was.
> 
> It doesn't take but a google search to find a "script" of what to say and presto, you get one.
> 
> it will take a while, look at how long the GAC was a problem, and Disney will be changing their system again.



I get that part, but it was your multiple re-explanations that made it seem like you were realigning with the idea.


----------



## MaryLovesPoohBear

DisneyOma said:


> I get that part, but it was your multiple re-explanations that made it seem like you were realigning with the idea.


Just because I can explain what someone means, doesn't mean that I agree with them.  Regardless of how well I might be able to do it.


----------



## DisneyOma

MaryLovesPoohBear said:


> Just because I can explain what someone means, doesn't mean that I agree with them.  Regardless of how well I might be able to do it.



I guess it was the way you explained that was confusing - it just didn't sound like you were explaining what someone else meant.

Back to topic - so many news sites are reporting it has to do with non-disabled abuse, when we've pretty much shown here on this thread that's not true. But I guess it makes for a better story? this Foxnews site (taken with two grains of salt) states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/30-l...y-resorts-from-autistic-visitors-move-forward


----------



## Lilsia

DisneyOma said:


> states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.



I, too would love to go back to September 1995 where nothing was more then a 15 minute wait.


----------



## Hoodie

DisneyOma said:


> I guess it was the way you explained that was confusing - it just didn't sound like you were explaining what someone else meant.
> 
> Back to topic - so many news sites are reporting it has to do with non-disabled abuse, when we've pretty much shown here on this thread that's not true. But I guess it makes for a better story? this Foxnews site (taken with two grains of salt) states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/travel/30-l...y-resorts-from-autistic-visitors-move-forward



I think that's based on approximate fastpass times.  The plaintiffs want immediate access to the fast pass line, not given a return time.


----------



## SueM in MN

DisneyOma said:


> I guess it was the way you explained that was confusing - it just didn't sound like you were explaining what someone else meant.
> 
> Back to topic - so many news sites are reporting it has to do with non-disabled abuse, when we've pretty much shown here on this thread that's not true. But I guess it makes for a better story? this Foxnews site (taken with two grains of salt) states that the plaintiffs want a 15 minute or less wait all the time.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/travel/30-l...y-resorts-from-autistic-visitors-move-forward


The guaranteed 15 minutes or less wait time is what they have asked for in their lawsuit. 



Hoodie said:


> I think that's based on approximate fastpass times.  The plaintiffs want immediate access to the fast pass line, not given a return time.


That is correct, they are asking for immediate, unlimited access to the Fastpass line and different, more immediate access if there is no Fastpass line or if it is backed up.


----------



## ladyjubilee

So, I'm the parent of a child on the severe end of the spectrum....and I agree with the appeal's court reasoning in overturn the lower court on "necessary modification". To me, it seems Disney's response is kind of like the responses on the thread. Several folks have mentioned that DAS works for their family...and a lot of those folks have also mentioned their kids are on the high end of the spectrum. Disney's answer is pretty much "it works for people with ASD" and if people would just plan, or take head phones, it'd work for them too, especially since kids ride in cars and planes.

However, just like on this thread, it seems that Disney is suggesting a standard in which all ASD people are the same---and should all be accommodated to level of high functioning ASD folks. But there is a wide gulf of need and response from ASD people---to the point, my aggressive, severe kid handles amusement parks FAR better than some very high functioning ASD peers we know. It is wonderful that some people with ASD can learn the manners of waiting in the line for a bouncy castle. However, some ASD folks become so fixated on being "in" the castle, they will walk over whatever is in their way or whoever, because nothing else exists. My kid isn't one of them. He is on he more impacted side, but he can wait---as long people don't crowd him, and he's not having to go backward to go forward (switchbacks) and its only a little time (less than 30 minutes). I know families that must literally have a 24/7 eyes on rotation of caregivers...for ASD people. No two ASD people are the same, any more than everyone with MD is same or MS is the same.

I agree with the court; so far, Disney has not shown DAS satisfies the "necessary modification" as their answer boils down to DAS works for [an admittedly large] subset of people with ASD.....but I don't feel they've yet shown it is accommodation that works for the plaintiffs. Incidentally, I would also take issue with Disney's expert who compared waiting in line for a ride with riding in a car. 1)The Disney and the expert have assumed riding in a car with a severely impacted ASD child is the same as with other children. My strong suspicion is that Disney's lawyers and expert have never had their hair pulled, been clawed or bitten while driving. And I did notice that none of the accommodations parents of severe ASD kids have to use were discussed. I didn't see any discussion of barriers or locked harnesses or seating arrangements. 2) The sensory impact of riding in a car (is it vestibular input? I know is one of the motion inputs) is calming, as is the restrain pressure of the harness/seat belt, which air conditioned. Totally not like being squished into a chaotic, hot line. I would have thought a good Behaviorist or Occupational Therapist would have been more qualified to speak to the question instead of neuropsychiatrist. 

Finally, it seemed the appeals court left the door open to question the real work impact of the accommodation request on park operations. Disney said 3% of attendees were given GAC, and with that 30% of the riders on one ride were using GAC. But that argument seems flawed. GAC was for just all needs--mobility to needing shade to wait times. DAS is not used for all those needs. There is no reason that the accommodation that these folks are requesting would be needed by that same 3%. In fact, as has been shown on this thread MOST people are well accommodated with either mobility access, DAS or stroller as wheelchair. Sooo, of that 3%, we're talking, what 2%? I suck at math, how many people is 2% of 3%? I know in my county the 2% is served in 3 schools that have less that 60 students each. The most severe of severe.....and more specifically, the portion of the 2% of 3% who have been to Disney enough to have developed a pattern.


----------



## kaytieeldr

ladyjubilee said:


> Sooo, of that 3%, we're talking, what 2%? I suck at math, how many people is 2% of 3%?


0.06%. Doesn't sound like much, but in 2016, Magic Kingdom alone had about 20,400,000 visitors (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disney-attendance-down-20170601-story.html). That's over 3,000  autism spectrum visitors per day. Each attraction has an hourly and daily capacity. I don't have The Unofficial Guide handy, but the information is in it. If you have a low capacity, slow loading ride that a number of DAS holders and their parties need to loop, that unreasonably and negatively affects hundreds or 1 thousands of other visitors.

Nobody is entitled to a WDW trip, or any vacation. Nobody is entitled to, or owed, a customized visit to a theme park.


ladyjubilee said:


> I know in my county the 2% is served in 3  that have less that 60 students each. The most severe of severe.....and more specifically, the portion of the 2% of 3% who have been to Disney enough to have developed a pattern


one county out of over 3,000 is in no way representative of the population.


----------



## DisneyOma

ladyjubilee, thank you for your thoughtful post. Disney, not any other private company, does not have to accommodate everyone to the fullest though. That's what the second ruling got wrong, IMO.


----------



## Hoodie

DisneyOma said:


> ladyjubilee, thank you for your thoughtful post. Disney, not any other private company, does not have to accommodate everyone to the fullest though. That's what the second ruling got wrong, IMO.


They need to make "reasonable accommodations" which they have done and the burden is now on the plaintiffs to prove that the additional accommodations they want will not be a burden on regular park visitors.  It may not seem like a lot of people are impacted, but when you start talking about one person and their party granted something like repeat rides, you could theoretically be looking at displacing upwards of 80-100 people per hour on any given ride (party of 4, ride of 2-3 minutes, repeating) per accommodation. Unfortunately the world can't accommodate individuals, all it can do is help ease the burden.  It can't erase it entirely.


----------



## Mika02

mamabunny said:


> Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.
> 
> As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently.  No matter what anyone says.  The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs.  In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood.  I don't know what that looks like, or how it works.  BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class.  Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips.  Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair.  My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.
> 
> It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable.  They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything.  And so that is what they do.  Is it "right"? Is it "fair"?  That's not for us to judge.  Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can.  For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over.  The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again.  You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.
> 
> Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know.  None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story.  And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.



As a parent of a child with sensory issues and an aunt to a nephew with Down syndrome. There are definitely times advocating for your child is an absolute necessity. That said there is also over indulgence that can happen with any disability my nephew likes to watch the same shows over and over and eat lots and lots. My son likes to say the words to shows and movies over and over and twirl markers while making swishing sounds in his classrooms. Unfortunately they can't do these things all day everyday because it can be unhealthy even though it calms them and makes them comfortable and happy because they love it and it's what they want. Sometimes as a parent you have to say no even with a disabled child.


----------



## OurBigTrip

ladyjubilee said:


> So, I'm the parent of a child on the severe end of the spectrum....and I agree with the appeal's court reasoning in overturn the lower court on "necessary modification". To me, it seems Disney's response is kind of like the responses on the thread. Several folks have mentioned that DAS works for their family...and a lot of those folks have also mentioned their kids are on the high end of the spectrum. Disney's answer is pretty much "it works for people with ASD" and if people would just plan, or take head phones, it'd work for them too, especially since kids ride in cars and planes.
> 
> However, just like on this thread, it seems that Disney is suggesting a standard in which all ASD people are the same---and should all be accommodated to level of high functioning ASD folks. But there is a wide gulf of need and response from ASD people---to the point, my aggressive, severe kid handles amusement parks FAR better than some very high functioning ASD peers we know. It is wonderful that some people with ASD can learn the manners of waiting in the line for a bouncy castle. However, some ASD folks become so fixated on being "in" the castle, they will walk over whatever is in their way or whoever, because nothing else exists. My kid isn't one of them. He is on he more impacted side, but he can wait---as long people don't crowd him, and he's not having to go backward to go forward (switchbacks) and its only a little time (less than 30 minutes). I know families that must literally have a 24/7 eyes on rotation of caregivers...for ASD people. No two ASD people are the same, any more than everyone with MD is same or MS is the same.
> 
> I agree with the court; so far, Disney has not shown DAS satisfies the "necessary modification" as their answer boils down to DAS works for [an admittedly large] subset of people with ASD.....but I don't feel they've yet shown it is accommodation that works for the plaintiffs. Incidentally, I would also take issue with Disney's expert who compared waiting in line for a ride with riding in a car. 1)The Disney and the expert have assumed riding in a car with a severely impacted ASD child is the same as with other children. My strong suspicion is that Disney's lawyers and expert have never had their hair pulled, been clawed or bitten while driving. And I did notice that none of the accommodations parents of severe ASD kids have to use were discussed. I didn't see any discussion of barriers or locked harnesses or seating arrangements. 2) The sensory impact of riding in a car (is it vestibular input? I know is one of the motion inputs) is calming, as is the restrain pressure of the harness/seat belt, which air conditioned. Totally not like being squished into a chaotic, hot line. I would have thought a good Behaviorist or Occupational Therapist would have been more qualified to speak to the question instead of neuropsychiatrist.
> 
> Finally, it seemed the appeals court left the door open to question the real work impact of the accommodation request on park operations. Disney said 3% of attendees were given GAC, and with that 30% of the riders on one ride were using GAC. But that argument seems flawed. GAC was for just all needs--mobility to needing shade to wait times. DAS is not used for all those needs. There is no reason that the accommodation that these folks are requesting would be needed by that same 3%. In fact, as has been shown on this thread MOST people are well accommodated with either mobility access, DAS or stroller as wheelchair. Sooo, of that 3%, we're talking, what 2%? I suck at math, how many people is 2% of 3%? I know in my county the 2% is served in 3 schools that have less that 60 students each. The most severe of severe.....and more specifically, the portion of the 2% of 3% who have been to Disney enough to have developed a pattern.



I call baloney on all of this.

It's really quite simple...no one - disabled, not disabled, or somewhere in between - NEEDS to get on a ride in 15 minutes or less.  They may WANT to, but they don't NEED to.
No one - disabled, not disabled, or somewhere in between - NEEDS to ride the same ride over and over.  They may WANT to, but they don't NEED to.

This is, IMO, much less about the autistic children than it is about the entitled, woe-is-me, martyrdom seeking parents..."Look at me, look how hard my life is".  They need to climb down off the cross and stop acting like the world owes them something because they have a disabled child. 

"It's not as easy as it used to be"...yeah, well welcome to the world that the rest of us have always lived in at Disney - waiting our turn.
"It's exhausting"...yeah, well welcome to the world that the rest of us have always lived in at Disney - being tired from the walking and the waiting our turn. 
"We can only stay in the park for a few hours"...yeah, well welcome to the world of that the rest of us who have ever taken a toddler or an exhausted child to the park has lived in. 


The ADA isn't there to satisfy wants, it's not there to make access easier, it's not there to keep people from getting tired, and it's not there to ensure that a family with an autistic child can do in three hours what it takes everyone else 8-10 hours to do.  Anyone that can't access Disney unless they have a  guaranteed 15 minute or less wait or unless they can ride the same ride over and over while others wait hours, then Disney isn't for them. The ADA doesn't require preferred accommodations, it requires accommodations that make the park accessible.  And if an unlimited FP isn't accessible enough, then Disney isn't for them.


----------



## sweetpeama

Looking at a park that was designed from the ground up for people with disabilities called Morgan's Wonderland located in San Antonio, TX this is what their disabled pass allows 




The Joy Fast Pass wristband allows a special-needs guest and up to three (3) additional guests to utilize specially designated entrance at the Wonderland Express train ride, Off-Road Adventure ride, carousel and Whirling Wonder Ferris wheel to avoid a lengthy wait in line. 
The Joy Fast Pass provides one ride per attraction and cannot be used for multiple rides on the same attraction.  After the special-needs guest accesses each of the park’s rides at least once, then he or she is invited to ride again as many times as they desire, however entry will be gained through the regular queue of park guests.
The Joy Fast Pass is available in the Welcome Center.
If a theme park that was designed from the ground up with people with disabilities in mind https://www.morganswonderland.com/visit-us/frequently-asked-questions  does not allow unlimited front of line repeated access than why should Disney, Universal, Six Flags, Cedar City, Silver Dollar City, Sea World, Busch Gardens, and any of the rest of them to include any small county fair in rural Eastern Montana that has a single ride or for that matter even the local 4-H club or FFA chapter running a petting zoo or selling individual packages of frozen treats for a donation have to provide unlimited front of line access. 

Before anyone starts in on all the rest of the list starting with Universal are not part of the lawsuit. What happens down the road if Disney has to provide front of the line unlimited access to anyone who says their kid needs it. This is just my opinion but it is going to set a standard that could reach all the way to a local county fair even in places like rural MT (Rosebud pop 9,248, Dawson pop 8,950, Fallon pop 3,009, Treasure pop 679, Musselshell  pop 4,639, Garfield  pop 1,293 or Phillips pop 4,119 are examples of small counties in MT that this could effect). 

Why are these families not going after places like Morgan's Wonderland other than they might not have heard of the place I am thinking it is because Disney is such a big name that if they get automatic repeated front of line access at Disney than when they state they want it at any other park or a small rural MT county fair people are going to roll over and say here go right on a head and would you like for me to have food and drink for you so while we are loading other passengers you can have something (too bad they can't do anything about that bathroom need though). 

While getting to go to Disney is nice it is not a need for anyone. Would I like for my kids to get to go on another trip to Disney after all they are almost 14 and just turned 11 and haven't been since the oldest just turned 5 (we flew down the day before her 5th birthday) so they have little to no memories of the trip other than pictures. Of course I would but it is not a need. What they need is a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, food in their bellies, parents who love them tons, skills to make them decent people for others to be around and that includes a willingness to help even if it's in a little way. It might be my almost 14 year old watching the small children of a couple who are both out fighting a fire as volunteers so that they can be there for someone else and my 11 year old who has multiple special needs taking an extra turn feeding the cats and helping with setting and clearing the table so that can be done). But since there are those who seem to think that kids need a trip to Disney please feel free to have them message me through here and I will gladly send them my paypal address so that they can help fund a trip for my kids. Yes folks I am being sarcastic just thought I would point that out since there is not an official sarcasm font or even appropriate style to use such as you underline book titles but poems, newspaper and magazine articles are in italics as in _Montana ranchers continue to rebuild after devastating Lodgepole Complex fire _article in the Fence post  Aug 18, 2017


----------



## Disneylvr

Reminding again, it was never “front of the line” access. GAC and DAS were/are both end of the Fast Pass line access. GAC without the wait outside the line and DAS with the standby line time minus 10 minutes wait outside the line queue.


----------



## Lilsia

Disneylvr said:


> Reminding again, it was never “front of the line” access. GAC and DAS were/are both end of the Fast Pass line access. GAC without the wait outside the line and DAS with the standby line time minus 10 minutes wait outside the line queue.



GAC was around long before fastpass. Disney did not institute the FP system until late 1999. And even though it was not intended to be FOTL access, we all know that that is what it ended up being when people got to the ride. Many people have posted this with either personal experience or with seeing it happen. That is the whole reason why those people are suing, because they want that back.


----------



## Disneylvr

Lilsia said:


> GAC was around long before fastpass. Disney did not institute the FP system until late 1999. And even though it was not intended to be FOTL access, we all know that that is what it ended up being when people got to the ride. Many people have posted this with either personal experience or with seeing it happen. That is the whole reason why those people are suing, because they want that back.



We used the GAC from 2006-2013 (with alternate entrance stamp) and never received “front of the line” access. End of the FP line and occasionally the line for guests with mobility devices. Neither were immediate boarding, but generally were shorter or less crowded. Not always. I remember 30-40 minutes waits at Splash Mountain at the wheelchair (alternate) entrance.
Our daughter is presently almost 16 years old. All of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit are 20 + years old and pre-FP park guests? Why did they wait until 2014 to file if they want pre-1999 FOTL access?
I am not a supporter of the lawsuit but trying to figure out why “front of the line” access keeps getting mentioned in this thread and in news stories about this lawsuit. Is that truly the access the plaintiffs are trying to get OR do they want the 2012 version of the GAC back?


----------



## kaytieeldr

"The lawsuit claims that the autistic visitors bringing the suit endured virtual and physical waits, some leading to "meltdowns", despite Disney's current system of allowing visitors with disabilities to make "appointment times" to get on rides and go to the front of the line if the wait is less than 15 minutes. " and "The lawsuit has a suggested resolution similar to the 2013 program with a pass allowing them to automatically skip lines entirely." 

https://comicbook.com/2018/08/21/disney-sued-autism-lawsuits-can-go-forward/


----------



## Lauren in NC

There was some speculation about wanting FP line access and waiting no more than 15 minutes, but part of my fascination with the case is that the plaintiffs haven't been very specific on what exactly they want Disney to do.  

Disneylvr - completely anecdotal, but I was on a trip to WDW back in 2008-ish and sprained my ankle toward the end, so I had about 2 days in a wheelchair.  It equated to basically "walking on" a lot of the rides in MK when wait times were generally 15-20 minutes.  I somehow doubt that would be possible any longer even without the DAS changes!


----------



## Disneylvr

Lauren in NC said:


> There was some speculation about wanting FP line access and waiting no more than 15 minutes, but part of my fascination with the case is that the plaintiffs haven't been very specific on what exactly they want Disney to do.
> 
> Disneylvr - completely anecdotal, but I was on a trip to WDW back in 2008-ish and sprained my ankle toward the end, so I had about 2 days in a wheelchair.  It equated to basically "walking on" a lot of the rides in MK when wait times were generally 15-20 minutes.  I somehow doubt that would be possible any longer even without the DAS changes!



 We waited 30-40 minutes at the Splash Mountain wheelchair entrance, which is the exit of the ride, because there were at least 10 families ahead of us in line.  A CM explained that only so many with mobility issues could be on the ride at the same time. Toy Story Mania and It’s a Small World are also attractions where we seemed to have longer waits with the GAC and “may use alternate entrance” stamp. Back in those days we did tend to visit WDW during more crowded weeks like spring break and Memorial Day which I am sure was a factor as well.

katieeldr, I know the news stories keep using the phrasing “front of the line” but are they quoting the actual lawsuit? “Front of the line” = FP line without the virtual wait outside the line?  Or are these lawsuit families actually wanting MAW type access!?!


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## kaytieeldr

Disneylvr said:


> katieeldr, I know the news stories keep using the phrasing “front of the line” but are they quoting the actual lawsuit?


I don't know.Stupid Amazon Fire. Anyway, this http://www.dogalilaw.com/disney-autism-ada-lawsuit.html is the law firm website. All documents are available as .pdf; scroll all the way to the bottom and select document D1 - the actual complaint.


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## Disneylvr

kaytieeldr said:


> I don't know.Stupid Amazon Fire. Anyway, this http://www.dogalilaw.com/disney-autism-ada-lawsuit.html is the law firm website. All documents are available as .pdf; scroll all the way to the bottom and select document D1 - the actual complaint.



I have read a lot of the document and have not seen any mention of "front of the line" access.  I have seen the phrases "minimal, manageable waits" and "plaintiffs have never sought either immediate access or priority access." The later was in response to the DAS usage statement that says "This service does not provide immediate or priority access."


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## MaryLovesPoohBear

Lauren in NC said:


> There was some speculation about wanting FP line access and waiting no more than 15 minutes, but part of my fascination with the case is that the plaintiffs haven't been very specific on what exactly they want Disney to do.
> 
> Disneylvr - completely anecdotal, but I was on a trip to WDW back in 2008-ish and sprained my ankle toward the end, so I had about 2 days in a wheelchair.  It equated to basically "walking on" a lot of the rides in MK when wait times were generally 15-20 minutes.  I somehow doubt that would be possible any longer even without the DAS changes!


We had a similar experience.

I was simply using a cane and wanted to make sure that I didn't have to get into a line with stairs.

I tried to stop Cast Members from ushering me to the front of the line.  Rarely did it work. 

This was in Sept of 2006.  Average wait times were 15-20 minutes.


----------



## Lauren in NC

Disneylvr said:


> I have read a lot of the document and have not seen any mention of "front of the line" access.  I have seen the phrases "minimal, manageable waits" and "plaintiffs have never sought either immediate access or priority access." The later was in response to the DAS usage statement that says "This service does not provide immediate or priority access."



I don't think I've ever seen the plaintiffs say they want FOTL access.  It seems like a lot of (not particularly Disney knowledgeable) journalists have used that term without understanding what it means in Disney terms.

In terms of "minimal, manageable" waits, I'm honestly not sure how Disney could be expected to provide that.  How could they guarantee a 20 minute wait when even FP lines sometimes require a wait of much longer than that depending on the number of guests and ride breakdowns?  I'm really curious as to what exactly the plaintiffs think Disney can do.  I think a lot of this has to do with the increased attendance at the parks, honestly, and perhaps not as much the DAS changes.  But, again, I never actually used anything prior to DAS.


----------



## Lilsia

Disneylvr said:


> We waited 30-40 minutes at the Splash Mountain wheelchair entrance, which is the exit of the ride, because there were at least 10 families ahead of us in line.  A CM explained that only so many with mobility issues could be on the ride at the same time. Toy Story Mania and It’s a Small World are also attractions where we seemed to have longer waits with the GAC and “may use alternate entrance” stamp. Back in those days we did tend to visit WDW during more crowded weeks like spring break and Memorial Day which I am sure was a factor as well.
> 
> katieeldr, I know the news stories keep using the phrasing “front of the line” but are they quoting the actual lawsuit? “Front of the line” = FP line without the virtual wait outside the line?  Or are these lawsuit families actually wanting MAW type access!?!



So you actually DID get FOTL access but there were others there before you. You did not go through a regular line or get a return time, you went immediately to the loading area. If there were not others in front of you then you would have immediately boarded. You reference only a couple of rides that you had to wait because there were other there. What about all of the other rides? I bet you got right on to them. Besides, you are talking about a mobility issue that needs a special vehicle. You have to expect that there will be others in your situation that want to ride too. That is completely different then what the lawsuit is about. These people have no mobility issues and can get right on, this is what they want, to go up to any and all rides and just walk through and get on.


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## Lilsia

I call BS on some of the things the lawsuit claims. It contradicts itself over and over. For example it says that they used to go to guest services and get their GAC, but then complain now that they have to go to guests services to get their DAS. One even says that they have to go daily to get the DAS, which we all know is not true. And then they go on to complain how the lines are longer at guest services then they want them to be. Well no crap. The lines are longer for everyone because WDW has become so much busier then it used to be. That has nothing to do with whether or not you have need of a DAS. Some of them are even saying that Disney caused them emotional distress and want monetary compensations for it. This is really a no win situation. I understand that these people feel that the only way that they can experience WDW is the way it used to be when the parks were slower and they could, in essence, go to the front of the line. But I don't think that is sustainable anymore. New survey shows that 1 in 45 kids has autism, so more and more are going to WDW. There will be waits, rides will go down or close. If this lawsuit goes against Disney then it will just open it back up to the abuse.


----------



## OurBigTrip

IMO, it doesn’t matter whether GAC gave immediate access or not.  The bottom line is that these people are suing for the ability to enter an attraction without waiting their turn, even if that wait is outside of the line.

If that’s the only way their children can access Disney, then Disney isn’t for them and they should vacation elsewhere .


----------



## Disneylvr

Lilsia said:


> So you actually DID get FOTL access but there were others there before you. You did not go through a regular line or get a return time, you went immediately to the loading area. If there were not others in front of you then you would have immediately boarded. You reference only a couple of rides that you had to wait because there were other there. What about all of the other rides? I bet you got right on to them. Besides, you are talking about a mobility issue that needs a special vehicle. You have to expect that there will be others in your situation that want to ride too. That is completely different then what the lawsuit is about. These people have no mobility issues and can get right on, this is what they want, to go up to any and all rides and just walk through and get on.



MOST of the time with GAC the alternate entrance stamp got us into the FP line, at Splash, It’s a Small World, Spaceship Earth, and Haunted Mansion it was at the exit for the first few years when daughter also had the stroller as wheelchair stamp on her GAC. I cannot remember a time when we just walked on a ride but I do remember minimal waits of less than 5 minutes. Typically our wait in FP line during the later GAC years without the stroller as wheelchair stamp and with the current DAS is about 5-20 minutes. Ocassionlly, but not often, it has been longer as mentioned above, or less than 5 minutes.


----------



## Lilsia

Disneylvr said:


> MOST of the time with GAC the alternate entrance stamp got us into the FP line, at Splash, It’s a Small World, Spaceship Earth, and Haunted Mansion it was at the exit for the first few years when daughter also had the stroller as wheelchair stamp on her GAC. I cannot remember a time when we just walked on a ride but I do remember minimal waits of less than 5 minutes. Typically our wait in FP line during the later GAC years without the stroller as wheelchair stamp and with the current DAS is about 5-20 minutes. Ocassionlly, but not often, it has been longer as mentioned above, or less than 5 minutes.



That is pretty much instant access. Which is what we have been saying that GAC turned into. That is why there was so much abuse. Who wouldn't want to be able to get right on or only wait a few minutes for every ride for your whole trip. And those who could transfer from a wheelchair/ECV and did not need a special ride vehicle, got right on.


----------



## 3Gsandme

I think the over reaching issue is that there isn't just one or even two or three ways to accommodate every single disability in a manner that causes the disabled person the least amount of waiting/trauma/unhappiness/effort.  It's just impossible.  Disney has two methods for dealing with disabilities.  First, they've made nearly all of their rides and queues accessible.  If you have a physical disability you can take your mobility device along with you for your comfort and, with a few exceptions, they've cut the special entrances which can sometimes equal a substantially longer wait for a disabled person.    They then implemented the GAC/DAS to try to help other special needs individuals who don't have mobility issues and may not be able to wait in traditional lines.  With careful planning, you can see that your loved one gets to ride twice in a row or has their wait times significantly limited, but there just isn't a way to see to the nuances of every single person's specific disability and, according to the law, Disney is already dong exactly what they need to.

My kiddo is on the spectrum as well, and we're super lucky that she can wait (even though she doesn't like it, but who does), so I'm definitely sympathetic to the juggling, wrangling, exhaustion and worry, but it's just impossible to dynamically and fairly accommodate disabilities that are so different.  What my kiddo needs isn't the same as what another needs.  What they need is different from a third and I don't just mean regarding ASD, but disabilities in general.  What a person with ASD needs might not be what a person with PTSD needs.  It's just too vast and it's kind of disappointing that people are taking a good faith effort like the DAS and suing over it because, really, I'm sure Disney doesn't have to do anything and they're trying to be disability friendly.


----------



## SueM in MN

This is from page 36 of the appeal to the lawsuit:
“In all 44 lawsuits, the complaint contained one count under the ADA for each plaintiff, asserting that (1) they suffered from autism and/or cognitive disabilities, and (2) Disney’s DAS Card l*violated the ADA because it did not allow plaintiffs to go on rides without waiting and in the order they wanted. *Plaintiffs sought injunctions requiring Disney to modify the DAS Card to provide additional accommodations.”

From page 44:
“That an across-the-board modification, where proven necessary, does not violate the ADA is illustrated by the fact that *plaintiffs actually request a pass system with a uniform ingredient: a guaranteed maximum wait time of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides *for all cognitively disabled plaintiffs at all times at all parks. Plaintiffs request this standardized pass to create a “predictable experience” for autistic children.12”

From page 60:
“The parties contest the effect of plaintiffs’ requested relief, which has evolved to this “single fix”: an injunction requiring that Disney guarantee plaintiffs a maximum wait of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides. *More specifically, plaintiffs ask this Court to implement this fix by ordering Disney to provide either: (1) a card offering automatic access to the FastPass lines for all rides at all times; or
(2) between 6 and 10 guaranteed Re-ad Passes for the disabled guest and each person in the group. At oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel expressed a preference for unlimited access to the FastPass lines “for everyone’s administrative burden” and because any number of Re-ad Passes would necessarily be limited.”*


----------



## Mrsjvb

Since there is no way to guarantee such things for all  park attendees ADA is not being violated as the plaintiffs are not being denied something that others experience as a matter of course.


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## DisneyWishes14

SueM in MN said:


> This is from page 36 of the appeal to the lawsuit:
> “In all 44 lawsuits, the complaint contained one count under the ADA for each plaintiff, asserting that (1) they suffered from autism and/or cognitive disabilities, and (2) Disney’s DAS Card l*violated the ADA because it did not allow plaintiffs to go on rides without waiting and in the order they wanted. *Plaintiffs sought injunctions requiring Disney to modify the DAS Card to provide additional accommodations.”
> 
> From page 44:
> “That an across-the-board modification, where proven necessary, does not violate the ADA is illustrated by the fact that *plaintiffs actually request a pass system with a uniform ingredient: a guaranteed maximum wait time of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides *for all cognitively disabled plaintiffs at all times at all parks. Plaintiffs request this standardized pass to create a “predictable experience” for autistic children.12”
> 
> From page 60:
> “The parties contest the effect of plaintiffs’ requested relief, which has evolved to this “single fix”: an injunction requiring that Disney guarantee plaintiffs a maximum wait of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides. *More specifically, plaintiffs ask this Court to implement this fix by ordering Disney to provide either: (1) a card offering automatic access to the FastPass lines for all rides at all times; or
> (2) between 6 and 10 guaranteed Re-ad Passes for the disabled guest and each person in the group. At oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel expressed a preference for unlimited access to the FastPass lines “for everyone’s administrative burden” and because any number of Re-ad Passes would necessarily be limited.”*



Wow.  Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted the ADA, but I don’t think its intent was to create “predictable experiences” and no waiting.  Isn’t it simply “reasonable” accommodations and equal access?  I just can’t imagine a judge would rule in the plaintiffs’ favor on this?  If they did, how would it impact other public spaces?  

I’m just a bit flabbergasted by this.  I have a DS with an anxiety disorder and other developmental disabilities and do everything in my power to try to take stressors out of the equation when we travel, but unpredictable things happen that are out of my control and, when we are in the parks, out of Disney’s control.  Weather, ride malfunctions, etc.  Disney can’t guarantee a “predictable experience”.


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## cmwade77

DisneyWishes14 said:


> Wow.  Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted the ADA, but I don’t think its intent was to create “predictable experiences” and no waiting.  Isn’t it simply “reasonable” accommodations and equal access?  I just can’t imagine a judge would rule in the plaintiffs’ favor on this?  If they did, how would it impact other public spaces?
> 
> I’m just a bit flabbergasted by this.  I have a DS with an anxiety disorder and other developmental disabilities and do everything in my power to try to take stressors out of the equation when we travel, but unpredictable things happen that are out of my control and, when we are in the parks, out of Disney’s control.  Weather, ride malfunctions, etc.  Disney can’t guarantee a “predictable experience”.


Exactly, ADA requires equal access be provided with no additional cost or proof. Proof can be required if there are additional options that allow for more than equal access, such as always being provided a discounted admission ticket for being disabled, but even if such an item is offered, equal access must still be provided at no additional cost and with no proof required.

It would not be reasonable to expect being able to go straight to the front of every line of every attraction you want to get onto with no wait what so ever. That just can't and shouldn't be done.


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## arminnie

This lawsuit really has nothing to do with access - it is totally about $$$$$MONEY$$$$$$. 

The original plaintiffs may have started out asking for enhanced access, but once the attorneys took over it became totally about how to extort money out of Disney.


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## DisneyOma

SueM in MN said:


> This is from page 36 of the appeal to the lawsuit:
> “In all 44 lawsuits, the complaint contained one count under the ADA for each plaintiff, asserting that (1) they suffered from autism and/or cognitive disabilities, and (2) Disney’s DAS Card l*violated the ADA because it did not allow plaintiffs to go on rides without waiting and in the order they wanted. *Plaintiffs sought injunctions requiring Disney to modify the DAS Card to provide additional accommodations.”
> 
> From page 44:
> “That an across-the-board modification, where proven necessary, does not violate the ADA is illustrated by the fact that *plaintiffs actually request a pass system with a uniform ingredient: a guaranteed maximum wait time of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides *for all cognitively disabled plaintiffs at all times at all parks. Plaintiffs request this standardized pass to create a “predictable experience” for autistic children.12”
> 
> From page 60:
> “The parties contest the effect of plaintiffs’ requested relief, which has evolved to this “single fix”: an injunction requiring that Disney guarantee plaintiffs a maximum wait of 10 to 15 minutes for all rides. *More specifically, plaintiffs ask this Court to implement this fix by ordering Disney to provide either: (1) a card offering automatic access to the FastPass lines for all rides at all times; or
> (2) between 6 and 10 guaranteed Re-ad Passes for the disabled guest and each person in the group. At oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel expressed a preference for unlimited access to the FastPass lines “for everyone’s administrative burden” and because any number of Re-ad Passes would necessarily be limited.”*



Wow - I think the plaintiffs have lost touch with reality here.


----------



## Disneylvr

OurBigTrip said:


> IMO, it doesn’t matter whether GAC gave immediate access or not.  The bottom line is that these people are suing for the ability to enter an attraction without waiting their turn, even if that wait is outside of the line.
> 
> If that’s the only way their children can access Disney, then Disney isn’t for them and they should vacation elsewhere .



The point I was trying to make is that it seems these people are suing for access that seems to go above and beyond the 2013 version of GAC, at least the version we got. Our daughter also has severe, non-verbal autism. I wonder if we can be a witness for Disney as to how we have made the DAS/FP + work with a child at a similar functioning level.


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## 2tinkerbell

My opinion maybe unpopular.  The plaintiffs seem to be asking for more that what ADA requires.  That is a given, no matter how it is worded.  I read their complaints and I read responses that say things like, "with planning," or "utilizing FP+ and DAS one can go on the same ride a couple of times," etc.  I come to where is personal responsibility? 

I read the responses of the Moderators here and read how they are making the DAS work for them and their situations.  Another example is my DD who is neurologically compromised.  One of the problems with her challenge is that she has severe visual perceptual problems and visual integration issues.  She can "see" but, she can't "see" if that makes sense.  Therefore, we have to make sure we sit as close to front and center as possible and try to limit the amount of visual stuff between her and the main attraction.  For example, at the movie theater, ballet, ball games, etc. we have to make sure our seats are such that she is no more than a certain number rows back.  My DD has never seen Fantasmic! before.  We are going to Disneyland at Christmastime.  I am having to purchase a dining package at Disneyland just so my DD can "see" Fantasmic!  It is taking personal responsibility.  We will probably not eat most of what is on the menu, but, for her to enjoy something, that is what I have to do.  We have to be willing to sit on the curb and play card games waiting for a parade just so my DD can "see" the parade.  That is what we have to do, that is what it takes.  The GAC/DAS doesn't help in this kind of situation.  It helps her for the wait times.  However, we are willing to pay for MaxPass so that we can accommodate her ourselves.  She does a great job advocating for herself and along with that advocating for her needs, she has learned what she needs and how to best accommodate her needs.  She has also learned, and I previously learned, what situations bothered her and to avoid them - especially when we couldn't accommodate her needs. 

I think this goes along with life.  For example, a co-worker was talking about Trick-or-Treating last night.  His 5 year old son had issues with a particular "scary house."  They learned to avoid houses with scary, "fake" zombie like people in front.  They didn't expect the houses to take down their decorations because it upset their son. 

Therefore, I don't understand asking/suing for excess accommodations.  If your child requires more than the usual accommodations or can't reasonably be accommodated then maybe that isn't the right activity for them.  Disney isn't a right.


----------



## Lilsia

2tinkerbell said:


> My opinion maybe unpopular.  The plaintiffs seem to be asking for more that what ADA requires.  That is a given, no matter how it is worded.  I read their complaints and I read responses that say things like, "with planning," or "utilizing FP+ and DAS one can go on the same ride a couple of times," etc.  I come to where is personal responsibility?
> 
> I read the responses of the Moderators here and read how they are making the DAS work for them and their situations.  Another example is my DD who is neurologically compromised.  One of the problems with her challenge is that she has severe visual perceptual problems and visual integration issues.  She can "see" but, she can't "see" if that makes sense.  Therefore, we have to make sure we sit as close to front and center as possible and try to limit the amount of visual stuff between her and the main attraction.  For example, at the movie theater, ballet, ball games, etc. we have to make sure our seats are such that she is no more than a certain number rows back.  My DD has never seen Fantasmic! before.  We are going to Disneyland at Christmastime.  I am having to purchase a dining package at Disneyland just so my DD can "see" Fantasmic!  It is taking personal responsibility.  We will probably not eat most of what is on the menu, but, for her to enjoy something, that is what I have to do.  We have to be willing to sit on the curb and play card games waiting for a parade just so my DD can "see" the parade.  That is what we have to do, that is what it takes.  The GAC/DAS doesn't help in this kind of situation.  It helps her for the wait times.  However, we are willing to pay for MaxPass so that we can accommodate her ourselves.  She does a great job advocating for herself and along with that advocating for her needs, she has learned what she needs and how to best accommodate her needs.  She has also learned, and I previously learned, what situations bothered her and to avoid them - especially when we couldn't accommodate her needs.
> 
> I think this goes along with life.  For example, a co-worker was talking about Trick-or-Treating last night.  His 5 year old son had issues with a particular "scary house."  They learned to avoid houses with scary, "fake" zombie like people in front.  They didn't expect the houses to take down their decorations because it upset their son.
> 
> Therefore, I don't understand asking/suing for excess accommodations.  If your child requires more than the usual accommodations or can't reasonably be accommodated then maybe that isn't the right activity for them.  Disney isn't a right.



Thank you for your perspective. Personal responsibility has seemed to have taken a back seat to entitlement now it seems. There are those of us who still realize that life is not fair and that no one owes you anything. We all just need to do what we can and what is best for our family. It is horrible when a family is affected by illness, injury, disease. But I don't think there is a family out there that is not affected by something. I hate the argument that some people say that someone has a hard enough life that they deserve something extra. We don't know what the person next to us has gone through. My niece is autistic and my sister has taken her to WDW 2 times. Although she really enjoyed it, there were too many times that it was way to much for her so my sister decided not to go anymore. She said there are plenty of other things that they can do that is not too overwhelming. I think some parents want something "normal" so much that they make bad choices at times.


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## Dis703

2tinkerbell said:


> My opinion maybe unpopular.  The plaintiffs seem to be asking for more that what ADA requires.  That is a given, no matter how it is worded.  I read their complaints and I read responses that say things like, "with planning," or "utilizing FP+ and DAS one can go on the same ride a couple of times," etc.  I come to where is personal responsibility?
> 
> I read the responses of the Moderators here and read how they are making the DAS work for them and their situations.  Another example is my DD who is neurologically compromised.  One of the problems with her challenge is that she has severe visual perceptual problems and visual integration issues.  She can "see" but, she can't "see" if that makes sense.  Therefore, we have to make sure we sit as close to front and center as possible and try to limit the amount of visual stuff between her and the main attraction.  For example, at the movie theater, ballet, ball games, etc. we have to make sure our seats are such that she is no more than a certain number rows back.  My DD has never seen Fantasmic! before.  We are going to Disneyland at Christmastime.  I am having to purchase a dining package at Disneyland just so my DD can "see" Fantasmic!  It is taking personal responsibility.  We will probably not eat most of what is on the menu, but, for her to enjoy something, that is what I have to do.  We have to be willing to sit on the curb and play card games waiting for a parade just so my DD can "see" the parade.  That is what we have to do, that is what it takes.  The GAC/DAS doesn't help in this kind of situation.  It helps her for the wait times.  However, we are willing to pay for MaxPass so that we can accommodate her ourselves.  She does a great job advocating for herself and along with that advocating for her needs, she has learned what she needs and how to best accommodate her needs.  *She has also learned, and I previously learned, what situations bothered her and to avoid them - especially when we couldn't accommodate her needs. *
> 
> I think this goes along with life.  For example, a co-worker was talking about Trick-or-Treating last night.  His 5 year old son had issues with a particular "scary house."  They learned to avoid houses with scary, "fake" zombie like people in front.  They didn't expect the houses to take down their decorations because it upset their son.
> 
> Therefore, I don't understand asking/suing for excess accommodations.  If your child requires more than the usual accommodations or can't reasonably be accommodated then maybe that isn't the right activity for them.  Disney isn't a right.



I agree completely.  I have a child on the spectrum and kids with ADHD, anxiety and all with severe food allergies. There have always been things that we just don't do because we know that we can't or at least shouldn't.  In regards to food allergies we will never be having a birthday party at Chucky Cheese because it's simply not safe for my kids. Not only can they not provide my boys with safe food, the entire environment is unsafe because of the likelihood of cross contamination everywhere.  Should I expect for them to go over the top and provide completely off menu food and clean the place top to bottom to remove food proteins from their restaurant to make it safe for my boys?   When we go to Disney I research and plan extensively. We bring food, we order groceries and I have backups at the parks every day even when I'm planning on ordering food just in case.  Disney is great with allergies in general but it's on me as a parent to make sure we go where they can best accommodate their needs rather than to go somewhere that they don't have what they need and demand they provide it anyhow.

Where does it end?  I have horrible motion sickness. Even with pills I can't ride everything. Should I be able to? Should they have ride versions that are tamer so I get to ride everything?  I never go to parks like Six Flags because the majority of rides I couldn't handle.  There are plenty of activities we've avoided with my boys because of anxiety issues and risky behavior/difficulty with impulse control.  Not every place or activity is going to be able to fit everyone's needs. I get the desire to want to do Disney, but it's a huge park with tens of thousands of daily guests to accommodate and what they are asking for is just unreasonable.  There wouldn't be a way for them to provide what they are asking without it significantly effecting the way they operate their rides or hindering the experience of other guests. Even then as pointed out with ride break downs, weather closures, etc. it's still impossible to every guarantee a max 10-15 minute wait.  And if they allowed that for rides and attractions would they need to start providing the same for buses, restaurant service, etc?

I feel for them and understand wanting to provide this experience for their children, but I think they are being more emotional than realistic about it.


----------



## Bianca and Bernard

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/bus...aVVNO4gB0rRJaa7XBsBKGllT47RSHk3dn6moQUE4rUXK0

After a five-year court battle, a federal lawsuit demanding that people with autism go the front of the line at Disney World rides is going to trial in February, a judge has ruled.

U.S. District Judge Anne Conway set a four-day, non-jury trial in Orlando to start Feb. 18, according to court documents filed last month.
The lawsuit involving a plaintiff identified only as “A.L.” was filed in 2014 after Disney changed its policy to ban people with disabilities from going to the front of the line. Reports had gone viral that some wealthy visitors abused the system by hiring guests with disabilities to accompany them to the front.

Now, Disney allows people with disabilities to reserve a ride in advance, like a FastPass, by using what’s called a Disability Access Service Card.
But advocates argue that under DAS Card, getting a return time is equivalent to a wait, and it becomes a struggle for those with severe autism who don’t understand the concept of time and are prone to meltdowns.

Disney says the new policy is fair. “Disney Parks have an unwavering commitment to providing an inclusive and accessible environment for all our guests,” the company said in a statement last year.

Autism is a developmental disability that affects people in different ways. The disease, which hits one out every 59 children, can affect people’s social skills or their ability or communicate. For A.L., he “was incapable of deviating from consistency, order and routine,” the lawsuit said.

A.L., an Orange County man who was 22 when the lawsuit was first filed, followed a strict routine at Magic Kingdom, traveling “in only one direction, stopping at only the same places, in the same order, every time.”

Last year, Tampa attorney Andy Dogali won a victory when a federal appeals court ruled the Disney lawsuits should be heard at trial.
Dogali said he does not expect to reach a settlement before the February trial after more than five years of legal fighting with Disney.
He currently represents 29 similar plaintiffs in Florida but only the case with A.L. has been set for trial.

Dogali also plans to go to trial March 31 in California in a similar legal fight over accommodations at Disney’s Anaheim parks, he said.


----------



## seashoreCM

Lilsia said:


> So you actually DID get FOTL access but there were others there before you. You did not go through a regular line or get a return time, you went immediately to the loading area.


This is an example of a CM cutting corners, either willfully, or because he was unable to manage numerous persons with disabilities each with a different arrival time like a short order cook would manage the different scrambled eggs and sausages and ham on his grill. (CM's are not expected to have the timing skills of short order cooks which is why they have iPads that give out Disability Access System times.)

But ...



> We waited 30-40 minutes at the Splash Mountain wheelchair entrance, which is the exit of the ride, because there were at least 10 families ahead of us in line.  A CM explained that only so many with mobility issues could be on the ride at the same time.


A disabled guest should not have to wait out the standby wait time (or DAS wait time) plus wait additional minutes due to the peculiarities and idosyncrasies of loading disabled guests. There should be some formulas in the DAS return time computation to compensate for this..


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## siren0119

seashoreCM said:


> A disabled guest should not have to wait out the standby wait time (or DAS wait time) plus wait additional minutes due to the peculiarities and idosyncrasies of loading disabled guests. There should be some formulas in the DAS return time computation to compensate for this..



The guest in a wheelchair doesn't get DAS access though as a matter of course (this is obviously not including folks in mobility devices that have other, DAS Eligible disabilities). They proceed to the wheelchair entrance on rides that still need a separate mobility loading procedure, or wait in the regular standby line if the line is wheelchair compatible.  The poster you quoted did not mention what the actual wait time of the ride was when they had their experience of extra wait time due to the number of wheelchair families - they also seemed to have been describing an experience PRE-DAS. DAS would not need to calculate any additional compensation of time for wheelchair guests due to the way the system works now.


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## Boopuff

I'm fascinated by this.  I'm also wondering (if) Disney looses this lawsuit, what will happen as far as DAS goes.  And will fraud run rampant once again. (having people ride the rides continually etc).  What a nightmare!  I don't think there's an easy answer.


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## katherine52478

I don’t think they’ll lose. In my opinion, Disney just has to provide a “reasonable accommodation” (language used for employees who have a disability). The DAS serves this purpose. To allow one type of “disability” (their words, I’m not saying Autism is a disability), would open this up to any type of disability and then you have issues with HIPAA because how would you prove your disability?

And most children and many adults also have meltdowns when waiting in line. My husband had one the other day when I was waiting at Guest Relations to ask about a lost hat.


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## lanejudy

katherine52478 said:


> then you have issues with HIPAA



Just to clarify...HIPAA has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” a disability at a theme park.  A theme park is not a “covered entity” under Title II of HIPAA, and any given individual may share his/her private health information with anyone.

I do agree that “proving” a disability would be a challenge ripe for abuse.


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## katherine52478

lanejudy said:


> Just to clarify...HIPAA has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” a disability at a theme park.  A theme park is not a “covered entity” under Title II of HIPAA, and any given individual may share his/her private health information with anyone.
> 
> I do agree that “proving” a disability would be a challenge ripe for abuse.


Thanks for correcting me! 

I more meant that if they made every person “prove” they were disabled, then what would be considered “proof”? I know with service animals, there are issues with asking why they are needed and if they are “certified”. I figured Disney might have the same issue with asking people.


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## mamabunny

katherine52478 said:


> Thanks for correcting me!
> 
> I more meant that if they made every person “prove” they were disabled, then what would be considered “proof”? I know with service animals, there are issues with asking why they are needed and if they are “certified”. I figured Disney might have the same issue with asking people.



Given that Disney does NOT currently accept doctor's notes (or any other form of "proof"), but instead focuses on *how* the DAS helps the Guest, I would presume that they will not voluntarily return to any system that requires an (easily spoofed) doctor's note or similar paperwork.

Disney has a solid history of trying to provide equal and accessible accommodations for all.  I too will be quite surprised if they do not prevail here.  The accommodation being requested - while understandable - may be considered a "want" and not a "need".  (as in, mamabunny NEEDS a mobility device because she can't walk, but Jane Doe WANTS front of the line access at every ride because it's hard for her to wait.)  

At WDW, *everyone* has to wait - and often under (relatively) the same circumstances; lines, heat, and time, all fairly consistent.  I truly have sympathy for people who find waiting in line (without need of a mobility device) to be uncomfortable, but no one *likes* it.  I have yet to hear anyone say "Oh goody!  We get to *line up* for 45 minutes to ride for 5 minutes!  Yay!"  

And as has been discussed here in this forum before, we all have to wait in real life too.  While you can - to some extent, given enough money, resources and/or sheer determination (or some combo of the three) reduce the amount of time you or your loved one(s) have to spend in lines out in the real world, you can't eliminate waiting entirely.  In fact, if you went to the doctor's office to get the note that says you can't wait at WDW... I bet you would have to *wait* to see the doctor to get the note...


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## DisneyOma

lanejudy said:


> Just to clarify...HIPAA has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” a disability at a theme park.  A theme park is not a “covered entity” under Title II of HIPAA, and any given individual may share his/her private health information with anyone.
> 
> I do agree that “proving” a disability would be a challenge ripe for abuse.



I took the PP's post to mean that real proof would need to be shown to get the instant access. It's a service not offered to the general guest, so there's that need for legitimate proof. Of course then you get the egotistical doctor who will be glad to give everyone the note.



mamabunny said:


> Given that Disney does NOT currently accept doctor's notes (or any other form of "proof"), but instead focuses on *how* the DAS helps the Guest, I would presume that they will not voluntarily return to any system that requires an (easily spoofed) doctor's note or similar paperwork.



Voluntarily, no. But if forced, I would hope that it would require more than an easily faked or easily given doctor's note.  Record of a full eval, with the results, would serve, but what CM would be able to decipher that? Hmm, actually, I know a lot of teachers and school staff that would be able to, and they love Disney, as do I.


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## mamabunny

DisneyOma said:


> I took the PP's post to mean that real proof would need to be shown to get the instant access. It's a service not offered to the general guest, so there's that need for legitimate proof. Of course then you get the egotistical doctor who will be glad to give everyone the note.
> 
> 
> 
> Voluntarily, no. But if forced, I would hope that it would require more than an easily faked or easily given doctor's note.  Record of a full eval, with the results, would serve, but what CM would be able to decipher that? Hmm, actually, I know a lot of teachers and school staff that would be able to, and they love Disney, as do I.




I still want to believe that Disney (along with it's Guests) won't be forced back down the path of (potentially) faked notes/records/diagnoses.  The way it is handled now is (in my opinion) the most fair and reasonable way to sort out who needs/gets a DAS.  

Regardless of intent, being required to "prove" that you need a DAS/FOL access opens Disney to the responsibility of being judge, jury and arbiter when deciding who qualifies, and what conditions would be considered eligible.  As soon as word got out that anyone who is diagnosed with X, Y or Z got automatic FOL access, the number of people lined up clutching faintly suspicious medical paperwork would soar, and the DAS would be rendered effectively moot - and we would have the GAC scenario all over again.


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## StitchesGr8Fan

The issue that I think gets lost when people argue the DAS issue is that attractions aren’t an infinite resource. There is a finite amount of people that can experience an attraction in a day. So when a DAS holder and their traveling party experience an attraction, that means the same number of people can’t experience the attraction. 

So when people say that people should be compassionate, letting a DAS holder and their party go to the front of the line because it is only adding a few minutes to their wait, they aren’t looking at the big picture:

It’s not just one DAS holder and their party, it’s hundreds, maybe even a couple thousand in a park every day. Giving that many people front of the line access (if they ever go that route again) means that the same number of non-DAS holding parties won’t get to experience that attraction. There is a real impact to operations that the people suing Disney either refuse to see or don’t care about because they think Disney owes them something.


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## marcyleecorgan

given how long this lawsuit has gone on, the "young man" in question has certainly proved his capacity to wait, given that he hasn't been given Front of the Line access for many years (or returned to DL as I understand)... i cannot possibly agree more with @mamabunny on this one... NONE of us want to wait in line, but Disney Parks continue to be more and more popular, so there's more and more people.  so a visitor needs to take care of their own needs - if they absolutely cannot, then Disney is no longer the place it was for them, and they need to choose a different place.

I want to be able to change a LOT of policies in life that have changed over time - TSA for one!    room security checks!  the numerous policies regarding CC's and purchasing Gift cards!  Being allowed to say, "Wow that was blown out of proportion" or "Let's just hand-bomb our luggage" at the airport without security descending down upon me... the fact that everyone and their dog has a cell phone and is recording everyone else so that we have no freedom of expression without Immediate and Instant Judgement from the entire internet-using world!


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## OurBigTrip

StitchesGr8Fan said:


> The issue that I think gets lost when people argue the DAS issue is that attractions aren’t an infinite resource. There is a finite amount of people that can experience an attraction in a day. So when a DAS holder and their traveling party experience an attraction, that means the same number of people can’t experience the attraction.
> 
> So when people say that people should be compassionate, letting a DAS holder and their party go to the front of the line because it is only adding a few minutes to their wait, they aren’t looking at the big picture:
> 
> It’s not just one DAS holder and their party, it’s hundreds, maybe even a couple thousand in a park every day. Giving that many people front of the line access (if they ever go that route again) means that the same number of non-DAS holding parties won’t get to experience that attraction. There is a real impact to operations that the people suing Disney either refuse to see or don’t care about because they think Disney owes them something.



Couldn't agree more.

Another issue is that the GAC wasn't discontinued only because of abuse, but because of overuse, and if Disney loses this case, the same could happen to the DAS. If Disney is forced to have another tier of accommodation, more along the lines of the GAC, many, if not most guests who now use the DAS with no problem at all will want that extra level of accommodation whether they really _need _it or not.


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## Boopuff

The one sticking point I have with the lawsuit the the people who think they're "entitled" to ride a ride over, and over getting off and right back on.  Now how in hades is that fair to anyone?  Seriously, be reasonable!


----------



## SueM in MN

OurBigTrip said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> Another issue is that the GAC wasn't discontinued only because of abuse, but because of overuse, and if Disney loses this case, the same could happen to the DAS. If Disney is forced to have another tier of accommodation, more along the lines of the GAC, many, if not most guests who now use the DAS with no problem at all will want that extra level of accommodation whether they really _need _it or not.


the biggest ’tipping point’ in Disney changing their system was overuse, which was very apparent when Disneyland’s Radiator Springs Racers opened. They could not give out the number of Fastpasses expected because so many ‘Fastpass slots’ were being used by people using GAC, the old Guest Assistance Card program.
GAC used a selection of stamps that allowed for various accommodations. One stamp was a green arrow, which meant ’expedite this person’s entry into attractions’. It was meant for guests on Wish trips, but since the stamp was available at Guest Relations, it was given out to other people (for the record, we used GAC for our daughter, but did NOT ever have that stamp).
Disney changed the whole system for accommodating children on Wish trips; they now have a special lanyard which is issued thru their authorized Wish granting organization (not all wish granting organizations  are authorized)

I had read websites (many for parents of autistic children) where people were trading hints and suggesting telling Guest Relations you needed ‘the green arrow stamp’. They talked about how they rode over and over or were able to do all the headliners in a very short time without waiting on a busy day. So, that’s the overuse part.

Then, there was the abuse part - one pregnant woman‘s blog about where she talked about GAC as a ‘pregnancy perk’ and posted a picture of her GAC card with that stamp. The rest of her blog talked about her trips around the world and gym routine while she was pregnant.
I also saw blogs where parents gave the hint to get GAC, even though they posted their child was not disabled. One even posted that her doctor wrote her a note each year because ‘going to WDW with 3 children IS a disability. People with that many kids shouldn’t have to wait.’


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## marcyleecorgan

Boopuff said:


> The one sticking point I have with the lawsuit the the people who think they're "entitled" to ride a ride over, and over getting off and right back on.  Now how in hades is that fair to anyone?  Seriously, be reasonable!


Yeah our local theme park has wristbands for their guests with disabilities: they get to board first and they get one repeat ride without unloading but after that, it's the regular line for them. If they wait in line again, they can use the wristband again AFTER their "regular" turn but there's no "front of the line" all the time. Also the park has 1 day a month where they open 2 hours early so these guests can have priority access for those hours. 
Not sure how Disney could implement this type of plan, but considering our local park's goal is to keep wait times under 30 min for EVERYONE, I dont think it could be replicated at that scale.  Also you can't get a wristband unless you register on a special list (these groups are usually participating with a school or group home). So you can't just demand what you from the staff running the lines: they radio Guest Services to come & speak with you. I have seen people be turned down for wristbands and I have seen people turned down for priority boarding when it is clear it's being overused: like a guest riding the same ride 4x.  They are told to enjoy another ride for at least an hour and then come back.


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## paisleys

As a Floridian, I knew many people who abused the GAC--including family.  My mother was laughing one day telling me how she and her friends rode Toy Story many times in a row--I asked how? I had young children and couldn't even get near it once.  Ahh.. GAC. It was great when the switchover happened--she went off on them when they wouldn't give her party a DAS "Yes, my friend plays golf but still has a bad back!" I chaperoned a field trip where one of my (otherwise sweet) charges told me her parents would have the kids pretend they were (the ugly "R" word) to get the pass.  Other people I know will go on and on about how their kids have 'issues' but these issues only seem to appear when it is convenient to get special perks like at WDW. It made me sick to think that profoundly disabled and wish kids were waiting behind these type of scammers.


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## StarGirl11

SueM in MN said:


> the biggest ’tipping point’ in Disney changing their system was overuse, which was very apparent when Disneyland’s Radiator Springs Racers opened. They could not give out the number of Fastpasses expected because so many ‘Fastpass slots’ were being used by people using GAC, the old Guest Assistance Card program.
> GAC used a selection of stamps that allowed for various accommodations. One stamp was a green arrow, which meant ’expedite this person’s entry into attractions’. It was meant for guests on Wish trips, but since the stamp was available at Guest Relations, it was given out to other people (for the record, we used GAC for our daughter, but did NOT ever have that stamp).
> Disney changed the whole system for accommodating children on Wish trips; they now have a special lanyard which is issued thru their authorized Wish granting organization (not all wish granting organizations  are authorized)
> 
> I had read websites (many for parents of autistic children) where people were trading hints and suggesting telling Guest Relations you needed ‘the green arrow stamp’. They talked about how they rode over and over or were able to do all the headliners in a very short time without waiting on a busy day. So, that’s the overuse part.
> 
> Then, there was the abuse part - one pregnant woman‘s blog about where she talked about GAC as a ‘pregnancy perk’ and posted a picture of her GAC card with that stamp. The rest of her blog talked about her trips around the world and gym routine while she was pregnant.
> I also saw blogs where parents gave the hint to get GAC, even though they posted their child was not disabled. One even posted that her doctor wrote her a note each year because ‘going to WDW with 3 children IS a disability. People with that many kids shouldn’t have to wait.’



I actually know a pair who were issued the green arrow. I never quite understood what about their disabilities (and yes they are both disabled) qualified them for the green arrow but I do remember them having it. Part of me wonders if its a matter of 'if your issue was severe enough' you got bumped up to the green arrow. But that's my speculation based on knowing they both had some issues that meant they needed to stay out of the general line. I don't want to go into details for their sake but at least with them it did feel like it was somewhat warranted. Especially after knowing them for as long as I have now (8 years come January). 

At least with them, they weren't out to scam the system. They followed the rules, never brought up going for a second round usually unless there was a no wait for the disabled ride vehicles which did happen a couple of times. But for them, it was an unexpected perk of hitting a ride at the right time (usuall y TSM)and not something they actively sought out. 

I can't say all people who got the green arrow that weren't wish trippers weren't out to gain the system. But there are some out there where the arrow was issued legitametly. 

I do wonder where the line between the arrow and the other stamps was. Since it did exist, though god knows where you crossed from one territory into the other.


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## SueM in MN

StarGirl11 said:


> I actually know a pair who were issued the green arrow. *I never quite understood what about their disabilities (and yes they are both disabled) qualified them for the green arrow but I do remember them having it. Part of me wonders if its a matter of 'if your issue was severe enough' you got bumped up to the green arrow.* But that's my speculation based on knowing they both had some issues that meant they needed to stay out of the general line. I don't want to go into details for their sake but at least with them it did feel like it was somewhat warranted. Especially after knowing them for as long as I have now (8 years come January).
> 
> At least with them, they weren't out to scam the system. They followed the rules, never brought up going for a second round usually unless there was a no wait for the disabled ride vehicles which did happen a couple of times. But for them, it was an unexpected perk of hitting a ride at the right time (usuall y TSM)and not something they actively sought out.
> 
> I can't say all people who got the green arrow that weren't wish trippers weren't out to gain the system. But there are some out there where the arrow was issued legitametly.
> 
> I do wonder where the line between the arrow and the other stamps was. Since it did exist, though god knows where you crossed from one territory into the other.


from what I know from CMs who worked in Guest Relations when the GAC (Guest Assistance Card) system was in place, the green arrow was really meant to only be used for kids on Wish trips. 
But, because the stamp was at Guest Relations, it ended up getting used for more than that.  Some was probably a CM trying to give some pixie dust to an individual family with high needs or on a special trip and some was probably the result of intimidation/demand by guests.
I don’t think the CMs who gave out that stamp realized the impact - instead of a one time pixie dust, returning guests brought their GAC card back and got it reissued with the same stamp. Many of those guests just thought that was what the program was supposed to be and used it responsibly. But, there were others who treated it like a Golden ticket they could use to go on high wait attractions over and over without waiting. 

The internet also made a big difference; GAC went from something people found out about at the parks to many internet entries. Along with responsible websites, there were also places on the internet where people posted ‘scripts’ to get the green arrow stamp and just to intimidate CMs to get it. .  
It went from rare, which had little impact on how attractions functioned, to common,


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## seashoreCM

It will be a sad day in Disney history if there becomes a law or judicial order forcing Disney to grant front of the line or green arrow or golden ticket or other line cutting privilege to persons or families who self identify as having a particular disability.


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## OurBigTrip

seashoreCM said:


> It will be a sad day in Disney history if there becomes a law or judicial order forcing Disney to grant front of the line or green arrow or golden ticket or other line cutting privilege to persons or families who self identify as having a particular disability.



Yep - I seriously doubt we would even go back if that comes to pass.  What would be the point?  Without any kind of verification, the abusers (and even the overusers, who need accommodation, but not front of the line) would be overwhelming, and waits for anyone who didn't have the accommodation would be incredibly long and unpredictable.


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## DisneyOma

I hope the judge looks at these plaintiffs, who state their children will have meltdowns if they have to wait, and say "and then what?" Do parents of children with autism really expect the world to stop and meet their children's wants so that the children never have meltdowns?


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## Lilsia

If there is a ruling against Disney, then all of the other theme parks will have to have the same system. All theme parks will be a free for all for those who want to claim a disability.


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## Boopuff

What I find odd about the plaintiffs argument is the part about "meltdowns" I've worked with some very high/low functioning autistic children.  One thing we ALWAYS teach is waiting your turn!! Don't these parents do this?


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## Lilsia

Boopuff said:


> What I find odd about the plaintiffs argument is the part about "meltdowns" I've worked with some very high/low functioning autistic children.  One thing we ALWAYS teach is waiting your turn!! Don't these parents do this?


There are probably some that don't.


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## jcb

Several posts on the podcast forum address the current status of one of the lawsuits, in case you are interested.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...ugs-in-beds-and-lettuce.3754820/post-61154120https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...ugs-in-beds-and-lettuce.3754820/post-61138644https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...ugs-in-beds-and-lettuce.3754820/post-61154120


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## Bianca and Bernard

Court stuff: 


https://www.orlandosentinel.com/bus...0200218-ngabbcvpsjglrn4vx44luasoaq-story.html

The first time the Disney rules had changed for him, her autistic son stood frozen, blocking the line on the Jungle Cruise ride, and not understanding why he had to wait 40 minutes instead of boarding immediately, said his mother Donna Lorman as she testified Tuesday during a federal civil trial six years in the making against the theme parks.

Her son didn’t know the concept of time. She worried he was going to have a meltdown on that December 2013 night.


I didn’t know what we were going to do,” said Lorman, an Orlando autism advocate who sued in 2014 after Disney changed the special access to rides that it had long allowed for people with autism and other disabilities.

Disney altered the policy not long after a story in the New York Post and other media outlets went viral in 2013 about wealthy tourists abusing the system by hiring people in wheelchairs or with other disabilities to accompany them so they could skip to the front of sometimes hours-long queues for the most popular rides at the parks


The Post quoted one mother who boasted about using that method to get VIP treatment for her family without having to pay for an actual VIP tour who said, "This is how the 1% does Disney.”

Disney began requiring disabled guests to make reservations for rides rather than be allowed to move to the front of the line on demand.


Lorman testified in federal court on Tuesday that the new system is a problem for her son, who thrives on routines and struggles with waiting and must ride his favorite attractions as he follows a specific route through the parks.

“The need for sameness and routine is essential for keeping (him) grounded,” testified Lorman, the president of the Autism Society of Greater Orlando who has trained Universal Orlando employees and law-enforcement agencies how to be more autism-friendly.

Lorman said her son struggles to communicate with the outside world other than to say “bathroom” or “chicken nuggets.” He follows a strict routine, like sleeping with exactly nine pillows at night, eating a certain brand of chips or having a snack every day at 2 p.m.

She said Disney gives her family a limited number of re-admission passes to proceed directly into the FastPass line, but not enough for a park like Magic Kingdom, which has more than 20 rides.

Disney attorneys questioned Lorman’s account and disputed that her son always rode attractions in a specific order.

He didn’t follow that pattern on some of his visits, said attorney Kerry Alan Scanlon, who was able to pinpoint portions of the family’s prior itineraries. He also asked Lorman why she didn’t do more to prepare her son for the family’s trip.

On that December 2013 evening at Mickey’s Very Merry Christmas Party, most of the wait times were under 20 minutes but Lorman hadn’t bothered to check, Scanlon said during the first day of what’s expected to be a four-day trial in front of Judge Anne Conway in U.S. District Court’s Orlando division.

Scanlon also pointed to other instances during which Lorman’s son, now 27, appeared to cope with waiting such as a seven-hour road trip with his family or a ceremony for his sister’s law school graduation.

Disney did not respond to a request for comment for this story but said in an earlier statement, “Disney Parks have an unwavering commitment to providing an inclusive and accessible environment for all our guests.”

Lorman’s son, who was diagnosed with autism around age 4, sat in the courtroom during most of his mother’s nearly four-hour testimony, apparently unaware of the significance of the events taking place around him. He stayed mostly quiet, dressed in a collared pink shirt and slacks. At times, he shook a red cylinder tube, which helps calm him like a security blanket.

In December 2013, they were turned away from the Jungle Cruise and told to come back after 40 minutes. Her son refused to move, blocking the line. Lorman distracted him, taking him to get dinner and see a show elsewhere at the park, his normal Disney route disrupted.

Lorman also testified about her son’s fascination with Disney.

He loves music and naturally gravitated toward Disney because of the songs he adored in “The Lion King” and the barbershop quartet who harmonizes on Magic Kingdom’s Main Street USA.

A trip to Disney World became a way to provide him positive reinforcement when he behaved.

Disney “is the happiest place on Earth,” Lorman said outside the courtroom after her testimony. “Except for kids with autism.”


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## DisneyOma

She is such an enabler!


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## marcyleecorgan

Well her son is clearly able to sit through court proceedings! Even I dont think i would have that kind of patience LOL


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## Mainsail Minnie

Any therapist who works with autistic children would know not to indulge the child's preferences to anywhere near that degree. It's pathetic, as her enabling probably kept him from making progress as he grew up. Autistic children can absolutely learn how to behave, but they need boundaries and tons of practice in learning to take turns, wait for turns, be flexible, and handle disappointment.

This mother really had no idea what to do when they couldn't go straight onto the ride? So she took him there with no contingency plan in case of ride malfunction, bad weather, etc. That's hard to imagine, because as the mother of an autistic teen, I know that daily life with an autistic child is all about learning to deal with the ups and downs and the unexpected. They never had to cope with that before? I don't buy it.

This suit gives a bad name to the hardworking families who are doing everything they can to raise their autistic children to be able to successfully function in the real world. It's pathetic and I'm glad that Disney is standing firm.


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## HarleenQ

marcyleecorgan said:


> Well her son is clearly able to sit through court proceedings! Even I dont think i would have that kind of patience LOL



Seriously. What a great piece of evidence for Disney to use!


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## Tallis

A two or three year old doesn't understand the concept or time either. Should everyone with children that young go to the front of the line? 

I'm the mother of an autistic son, and still think this is ridiculous.


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## kaytieeldr

Bianca and Bernard said:


> Disney “is the happiest place on Earth,” Lorman said outside the courtroom after her testimony. “Except for kids with autism.”


Sigh. No. She lives in Orlando andvisited Walt Disney Orld regularly, and _still_ doesn't know it's "The *Most Magical *Place on Earth"?


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## coastermom

lpereira said:


> Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
> Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.


Six Flags doesn’t give any enhanced access ... I still Have to get a time to go back to the ride and get on it sometimes through their flash pass lines same as Disney . Unless you get a No Wait pass which is not everyone then it’s almost the same thing.


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## lanejudy

coastermom said:


> Six Flags doesn’t give any enhanced access ... I still Have to get a time to go back to the ride and get on it sometimes through their flash pass lines same as Disney . Unless you get a No Wait pass which is not everyone then it’s almost the same thing.


I thought you have to buy The FLASH Pass?  Is it free to everyone?


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## Evita_W

DOREEN1779 said:


> I have a question.  If Six Flags can ask for a Dr.s note to validate a disability and the state can ask for a detailed Dr.'s statement for approval to obtain a placard or handicapped plates, why doesn't Disney?  I'm just looking for clarification.


It should be noted that probably around 80% of those doctors notes are fakes obtained that morning from a guy on the corner selling them for $20, which is a lot cheaper thant their front of the line access, which is essentially what they give for free to those with doctors notes.

The bottom line is requiring doctors notes actually leads to far more rampant abuse than Disney's current approach.


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## Evita_W

coastermom said:


> Six Flags doesn’t give any enhanced access ... I still Have to get a time to go back to the ride and get on it sometimes through their flash pass lines same as Disney . Unless you get a No Wait pass which is not everyone then it’s almost the same thing.


In that case, ADA would say they are not allowed to require a doctor's note and they are only getting away with it because no one challenges it in court because Six Flags doesn't have the money Disney does, so there isn't likely to be the same payout.


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## Evita_W

lanejudy said:


> I thought you have to buy The FLASH Pass?  Is it free to everyone?


What? That would be pathetic, why would they charge for something that provides return times and ultimately means people will be spending more money in the parks while waiting for their return time?


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## ZJ5/9D47

siren0119 said:


> DAS would not need to calculate any additional compensation of time for wheelchair guests due to the way the system works now.



DAS return times are designed to be stand-by wait time minus 10 minutes since the FP line is supposed to be 10 minutes.  The problem is that for certain rides the wheelchair entrance is much longer than a 10 minute wait when the DAS holder returns and enters that line.  Sometimes it is a 30 - 45 minute wait (one time an hour because a MAW kid showed up) and the wait times will only continue to grow as crowds increase.  It really only affects a small group of guests who need limited specific seating...SE when needing to take a wheelchair up to the loading platform since only one can be up there (well, two if one folds but then there is the issue of only one RC evac. guest per each of the two zones), KS when staying in one's wheelchair or bringing a service dog which uses that same spot, TSMM...IASM...JC when not transferring.  

All the extra waiting adds up over the day and trip and it really isn't equal or fair access not to mention the difficulty of an unexpected wait of that length in a noisy and crowded loading area with people shoving and bumping into you as they pass by since the disabled person in their party can transfer into any seat.  Disney doesn't even have designated "safe" areas for these disabled people and their groups to be placed so they can wait in the same relaxed way that every other guest experiences.  It is just being shoved to the side of a narrow path so people in scooters can hopefully not run into you.  

Disney posts wait times for able-bodied guests and the DAS line for those not in the situation I described above but Disney makes zero attempt to inform people with my type of accommodation needs if my wait will be the regular 10 minutes or 45 in a horrible environment.  It really is a simple programming change because attractions already update their stand-by wait times and could easily add a "non-transfer" wait time.  For someone like me I would just come back when the line has shortened but as it is right now, I can't know how long that line will be until I go through the entire queue and am near the loading area where all our groups are lined up to the side.  

As an example I think there were three service dogs in front of me last trip waiting to get on KS and about 10 groups needing the "spot"...while all the other guests waited probably less than 3-5 minutes from that same point in line.  

If it wasn't for the noisy wait getting bumped into constantly I wouldn't be so irked by it all since the DAS allows for double-dipping at times by waiting out a PP return time at Philharmagic or SM at CoP.


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## coastermom

lanejudy said:


> I thought you have to buy The FLASH Pass?  Is it free to everyone?



If you have a doctors note and apply for the new disability card that Six Flags is asking for people to get you can get a disability pass like a DAS. This is NOT A  FLASH PASS it’s for Disability issues !!


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## lanejudy

coastermom said:


> If you have a doctors note and apply for the new disability card that Six Flags is asking for people to get you can get a disability pass like a DAS. This is NOT A  FLASH PASS it’s for Disability issues !!


I understand that.  But the person I quoted claims the Six Flags disability pass is not _enhanced_ access because the disability pass allows them to enter through The FLASH Pass entrance.  If use of that entrance without a disability requires an extra paid-upgrade, then the disability pass is providing an _enhanced_ access.  Thus requiring documentation of the disability.  "Enhanced" does not have to mean front-of-the-line, it simply means something of value.


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## Evita_W

lanejudy said:


> I understand that.  But the person I quoted claims the Six Flags disability pass is not _enhanced_ access because the disability pass allows them to enter through The FLASH Pass entrance.  If use of that entrance without a disability requires an extra paid-upgrade, then the disability pass is providing an _enhanced_ access.  Thus requiring documentation of the disability.  "Enhanced" does not have to mean front-of-the-line, it simply means something of value.


The problem is that they can't provide equal access without the enhanced access. They can only require a doctor's note if the enhanced access goes above is something offered above what provides equal access.

So in Six Flags case, they could provide:

An option that provides a return time that you come back with little to no wait time. Since this mimics the standby queue and there is nothing less than this that would provide equal access to these guests with disabilities, no doctors note can be required, even though it is the equivalent of their FlashPass service that might cost other guests money.
An option that mimics say a front of the line or equivalent pass, this would be something above and beyond what is offered to provide equal access and a doctor's note can be required.
That being said, any system that requires a doctor's note always gets massive abuse, there are litterally people on the street corners around the parks that try to require doctors notes selling fake doctors notes for a little bit of nothing. It happened when Disney tried it way back when, by the way back at that time Disney tried the argument that they could require a doctor's note because their system offered enhanced access and then the inevitable happened and a disabled person got hurt in the Indiana Jones queue at Disneyland because they were forced into using the standby queue rather than given a special assistance card as they were called at the time because she didn't have a doctor's note. They sued Disney, who as I said argued they could because it was enhanced access and the courts ordered that since there was no other option at that time that provided equal access they couldn't require a doctor's note.

Think of going on a bus as another example, in most cities, if you are disabled you can apply for reduced fare and/or get dial a ride service, but they require proof of disability in order to get it. But you can still ride the bus at full fare, even if you have a mobility device. But if say the regular buses were unable to handle mobility devices, then the dial a ride that can handle them would not be able to require a doctor's note for their use, as that is what would be considered equal access.

So technically Six Flags is in violation of ADA by requiring a doctor's note for return times and there is even legal proceedings that set a precedent for this.


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## jcb

Evita_W said:


> It happened when Disney tried it way back when, by the way back at that time Disney tried the argument that they could require a doctor's note because their system offered enhanced access and then the inevitable happened and a disabled person got hurt in the Indiana Jones queue at Disneyland because they were forced into using the standby queue rather than given a special assistance card as they were called at the time because she didn't have a doctor's note. They sued Disney, who as I said argued they could because it was enhanced access and the courts ordered that since there was no other option at that time that provided equal access they couldn't require a doctor's note.



I'm not familiar with this ruling.  ADA Title III does not include a medical inquiry prohibition similar to the one applicable to employers.  There are very few court decisions on this.  DOJ seems to assume there is such a prohibition but its reasoning is so thin, it is doubtful a court would defer to it.  So, do you have a citation or case name for the decision?


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## Evita_W

jcb said:


> I'm not familiar with this ruling.  ADA Title III does not include a medical inquiry prohibition similar to the one applicable to employers.  There are very few court decisions on this.  DOJ seems to assume there is such a prohibition but its reasoning is so thin, it is doubtful a court would defer to it.  So, do you have a citation or case name for the decision?


It is a long story and I don't remember the case number or name, this was back in the mid 90's, I only know what it was, because I saw the aftermath, as I was in the park and had gone on Indiana Jones just before this happened and was on my way out when they shut the queue down. I obviously didn't do a good enough job explaining this.

The person in question had a disability that could cause them to fall down at any point and as a result, and it is my understanding that even if they had a wheelchair they had panic attacks in crowded queues due to some other issues (it was more complicated than that, but I do need to simplify this a little bit and I don't even know all of their issues, just what was public at the time), as a result they requested a disability access pass as they were called then to minimize the amount of time in in the queue. They did not have a doctors note stating all of this, so Disney denied them when they requested such a pass. So, they tried to do what they could and the issue ended up coming up while they were in the Indiana Jones queue and they ended up on the floor. Now that doesn't sound too bad, but guests literally walked over and even stepped on the person to get on the ride. Obviously that is an issue of very rude guests, but none the less, it is what happened and this is what caused her injuries. Literally had I got in line about 10 minutes later, I could very well have stood there behind her and blocked the path until assistance came, so again, I was there and witnessed the aftermath, so I watched the story closely. But if I had been there and stopped it, who knows what would have happened with the access system?

As a result they were able to demonstrate that they were unable to access the attraction and definitely not safely without some accommodations. They rightfully pointed out that this incident would not have happened had Disney not required a doctors note for access. Disney did point out that had the guests not behaved so poorly that this incident would also not have happened and the courts rules that while that was true, they could eliminate the potential for anything like it to reoccur simply by eliminating the need for a doctor's note and ordered Disney to do so or to come up with another way to provide equal access without a doctor's note, as a person with certain disabilities would be unable to access attractions without such a pass and thus a doctors note cannot be required.

And I do recall that Disney tried very hard to settle out of court, but the people involved had money and they really weren't interested in that, they wanted to make things better for those with disabilities.


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## jcb

T


Evita_W said:


> It is a long story and I don't remember the case number or name, this was back in the mid 90's, I only know what it was, because I saw the aftermath, as I was in the park and had gone on Indiana Jones just before this happened and was on my way out when they shut the queue down. I obviously didn't do a good enough job explaining this.
> 
> The person in question had a disability that could cause them to fall down at any point and as a result, and it is my understanding that even if they had a wheelchair they had panic attacks in crowded queues due to some other issues (it was more complicated than that, but I do need to simplify this a little bit and I don't even know all of their issues, just what was public at the time), as a result they requested a disability access pass as they were called then to minimize the amount of time in in the queue. They did not have a doctors note stating all of this, so Disney denied them when they requested such a pass. So, they tried to do what they could and the issue ended up coming up while they were in the Indiana Jones queue and they ended up on the floor. Now that doesn't sound too bad, but guests literally walked over and even stepped on the person to get on the ride. Obviously that is an issue of very rude guests, but none the less, it is what happened and this is what caused her injuries. Literally had I got in line about 10 minutes later, I could very well have stood there behind her and blocked the path until assistance came, so again, I was there and witnessed the aftermath, so I watched the story closely. But if I had been there and stopped it, who knows what would have happened with the access system?
> 
> As a result they were able to demonstrate that they were unable to access the attraction and definitely not safely without some accommodations. They rightfully pointed out that this incident would not have happened had Disney not required a doctors note for access. Disney did point out that had the guests not behaved so poorly that this incident would also not have happened and the courts rules that while that was true, they could eliminate the potential for anything like it to reoccur simply by eliminating the need for a doctor's note and ordered Disney to do so or to come up with another way to provide equal access without a doctor's note, as a person with certain disabilities would be unable to access attractions without such a pass and thus a doctors note cannot be required.
> 
> And I do recall that Disney tried very hard to settle out of court, but the people involved had money and they really weren't interested in that, they wanted to make things better for those with disabilities.


Thank you. Lots of folks have claimed IJ caused them injuries.  It's what led to the common carrier ruling.  I've not been able to find any ruling along the lines that you describe and it isn't mentioned in People v. Disneyland.  I am not doubting you.  From the description, it might not have been an ADA claim - that was still new in the mid-1990's - but a California law tort claim.  Perhaps later I'll be able to search newspapers for articles on the subject.  I've just found news media does a very poor job of accurately reporting litigation.


----------



## SueM in MN

My daughter can be lifted out of her wheelchair (so a not easy transfer), but stays in her chair for any attractions that have a wheelchair accessible vehicle.
We’ve been coming to WDW for many years and used DAS (and the Guest Assistance Card it replaced) because of her other needs.

The issue with the waiting area itself being crowded or small is more of an issue with some of the older attractions. Newer attractions and many of the older ones that could be updated have the handicapped boarding area moved closer to the ‘regular’ boarding area and have a pull off point separated by ropes for guests with special needs to wait.
We’ve found our waits in the dedicated boarding area or line for most attractions has actually decreased a lot since DAS started.
Before DAS, we usually waited for an extra 15-45 minutes in the wheelchair accessible boarding area for Toy Story Midway Mania. Why? Because people with Guest Assistance Cards with a stamp to “use alternate entrance” were also using that area. At times, there were only 2 groups out of maybe 8 with mobility devices and the line waiting there extended all the way to the end of the ramped entrance to the area. Now, we are sometimes the only guests waiting and get on as quickly as the wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV) arrives. For that particular attraction, the extra track without stairs made some difference, but the biggest change was limiting that access area to people who actually need the WAV.

We‘ve seen the same thing on Small World. Before the change, the wait usually went up the ramp all the way to the exit, with the majority not using a mobility device. More recently, we’ve had at the most 2 groups in front of us.

Jungle Cruise made a change in the past year - the waiting for guests with mobility devices has 2 areas, with a rope between them. One is for those who can transfer and the other is for those waiting for the WAV. They may not always have the separation, but in out trips in the past year, they hs d.
The one that still has a long wait is the Safari. It’s really variable though - we’ve been in line with several guests using wheelchairs ahead of us and thought they either would all transfer and they didn’t or thought none would transfer and they all did.


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## rigs32

Does the mom who testified have a plan for her child after she passes?


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## Evita_W

SueM in MN said:


> My daughter can be lifted out of her wheelchair (so a not easy transfer), but stays in her chair for any attractions that have a wheelchair accessible vehicle.
> We’ve been coming to WDW for many years and used DAS (and the Guest Assistance Card it replaced) because of her other needs.
> 
> The issue with the waiting area itself being crowded or small is more of an issue with some of the older attractions. Newer attractions and many of the older ones that could be updated have the handicapped boarding area moved closer to the ‘regular’ boarding area and have a pull off point separated by ropes for guests with special needs to wait.
> We’ve found our waits in the dedicated boarding area or line for most attractions has actually decreased a lot since DAS started.
> Before DAS, we usually waited for an extra 15-45 minutes in the wheelchair accessible boarding area for Toy Story Midway Mania. Why? Because people with Guest Assistance Cards with a stamp to “use alternate entrance” were also using that area. At times, there were only 2 groups out of maybe 8 with mobility devices and the line waiting there extended all the way to the end of the ramped entrance to the area. Now, we are sometimes the only guests waiting and get on as quickly as the wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV) arrives. For that particular attraction, the extra track without stairs made some difference, but the biggest change was limiting that access area to people who actually need the WAV.
> 
> We‘ve seen the same thing on Small World. Before the change, the wait usually went up the ramp all the way to the exit, with the majority not using a mobility device. More recently, we’ve had at the most 2 groups in front of us.
> 
> Jungle Cruise made a change in the past year - the waiting for guests with mobility devices has 2 areas, with a rope between them. One is for those who can transfer and the other is for those waiting for the WAV. They may not always have the separation, but in out trips in the past year, they hs d.
> The one that still has a long wait is the Safari. It’s really variable though - we’ve been in line with several guests using wheelchairs ahead of us and thought they either would all transfer and they didn’t or thought none would transfer and they all did.


What I am describing predated the GAC and yes, eliminating the requirement for doctors notes did have some issues, but for quite some time the abuse decreased dramatically after that. Remember, the internet was still in its infancy, so it took time for everyone to learn the tricks and even then not everyone did. Then it got to the point that the queue were getting way too long for those with DAP (acronym at the time), the biggest problem had become people handing their passes to other people if they didn't want to ride a particular attraction. They eventually required ID when using the DAP for a short amount of time, but the enforcement was inconsistent and caused issues with kids that needed the passes.

So they revamped the system to the GAC and caused a mess of issues that eventually got sorted and it worked fairly well for quite some time, then people were selling their services as a "tour guide without the waits" (something that didn't really happen with the DAP, but again, I think that is more due to it being the early days of the internet than anything else) and as you note the queue were getting quite long again, sometimes substantially longer than the standby queues and unfortunately there were times where depending on your needs you may have to use the alternate entrance, such as at small world in Disneyland if you couldn't do stairs, although that policy changed from time to time at that attraction. So they had to do something to curtail the issues and they once again revamped the system to the DAS, which has reduced abuse dramatically and of course there have been tweaks since then, but overall the system works, albeit not perfectly. There are still additional waits when you return, but Disney has indeed been making tweaks to minimize this wherever possible.

You have posted some examples, we never have had to wait for the Safari other than to get through the FP queue though, there has always been a vehicle waiting when we got to the front, but we were transferring, that being said there was no one that didn't transfer when we have gone. When we went with our friend that has a service dog, we did have to wait for them to get the proper harness thing, but that's a different story.

Another place they have made a major improvement is Peter Pan at Disneyland, If you can handle about 2 minutes of the end of the regular queue, they send you that way, so that those who need the exit can use it without such a long wait.

Also, small world at DL has been modified with a mainstreamed queue, which naturally spaces out those with disabilities instead of an insanely long queue for wheelchairs, you either use the standby or FP queue as applicable.


----------



## Evita_W

jcb said:


> T
> 
> Thank you. Lots of folks have claimed IJ caused them injuries.  It's what led to the common carrier ruling.  I've not been able to find any ruling along the lines that you describe and it isn't mentioned in People v. Disneyland.  I am not doubting you.  From the description, it might not have been an ADA claim - that was still new in the mid-1990's - but a California law tort claim.  Perhaps later I'll be able to search newspapers for articles on the subject.  I've just found news media does a very poor job of accurately reporting litigation.


Yeah, it was one I was only able to follow at the time because of having been there and I don't know what grounds they were using, I was only ever able to find out the result and was able to confirm it with guest relations at the time, as the effect was immediate and I was one of the ones that it improved things for, so I ended up benefiting greatly from this very sad event that should have been avoidable in the first place.


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## OurBigTrip

Evita_W said:


> So they revamped the system to the GAC and caused a mess of issues that eventually got sorted and it worked fairly well for quite some time, then people were selling their services as a "tour guide without the waits" (something that didn't really happen with the DAP, but again, I think that is more due to it being the early days of the internet than anything else) and as you note the queue were getting quite long again, sometimes substantially longer than the standby queues


It wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that necessitated ending the GAC, it was overuse by the disabled.  The alternate entrance stamp became the norm rather than the exception, and people abused it by riding the same rides repeatedly with little to no wait and allowing others in their party to use it even if the disabled guest wasn’t riding.


----------



## Evita_W

OurBigTrip said:


> It wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that necessitated ending the GAC, it was overuse by the disabled.  The alternate entrance stamp became the norm rather than the exception, and people abused it by riding the same rides repeatedly with little to no wait and allowing others in their party to use it even if the disabled guest wasn’t riding.


While there was some of the repeated rides, that was the minority.  But the allowing others to use it was a big problem that drove me nuts, so I am glad they do pictures now. Overall, from what I saw in visiting the parks (DLR) at least once a week at the time, the abuse was about 80% from the selling services (usually done by people who are disabled) and from the no disabled community and 20% the repeated rides, which yes I witnessed as well and yes, I reported clear abuses when I saw them. But technically at the time repeated ride wasn't considered abuse as it was within the rules, although not the spirit of the system, so nothing was ever done about those who did that.


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## OurBigTrip

Insisting on an alternate entrance stamp when it wasn’t really needed is also abuse.


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## Evita_W

OurBigTrip said:


> Insisting on an alternate entrance stamp when it wasn’t really needed is also abuse.


Yes, but not as many people did that as you might think, aside from those that I mentioned that were selling their services and yes, that was abuse and I think Disney should have revoked their annual passes and fired the CMs (which there were quite a few) that did this, but that is just me.


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## lanejudy

I believe the use/abuse issues with GAC varied to extent between WDW and DLR.  The "tour guide" issue was much bigger at DLR than WDW.   WDW had a bigger problem with use/overuse/too many who didn't truly need the alternate entrance stamp.  _Combined_ the various issues were creating operational challenges at both parks, resulting in the program change.


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## Lilsia

lanejudy said:


> I believe the use/abuse issues with GAC varied to extent between WDW and DLR.  The "tour guide" issue was much bigger at DLR than WDW.   WDW had a bigger problem with use/overuse/too many who didn't truly need the alternate entrance stamp.  _Combined_ the various issues were creating operational challenges at both parks, resulting in the program change.



Another issue, at WDW at least, was that before they made the queues wheelchair/ECV friendly, families would rent a wheelchair to get to the FOTL. We saw that many times with family members taking turns who would sit in the chair. I am glad that they fixed that because that is a special kind of horrible person that does that. I still will hear in passing, people in ECVs arguing with cast members about skipping the line like they used to.


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## HarleenQ

OurBigTrip said:


> It wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that necessitated ending the GAC, it was overuse by the disabled.  The alternate entrance stamp became the norm rather than the exception, and people abused it by riding the same rides repeatedly with little to no wait and allowing others in their party to use it even if the disabled guest wasn’t riding.



For sure. I remember an article that came out when Cars Land in DLR opened saying the number of GAC users was an astronomical number. 



Evita_W said:


> While there was some of the repeated rides, that was the minority.  But the allowing others to use it was a big problem that drove me nuts, so I am glad they do pictures now. Overall, from what I saw in visiting the parks (DLR) at least once a week at the time, the abuse was about 80% from the selling services (usually done by people who are disabled) and from the no disabled community and 20% the repeated rides, which yes I witnessed as well and yes, I reported clear abuses when I saw them. But technically at the time repeated ride wasn't considered abuse as it was within the rules, although not the spirit of the system, so nothing was ever done about those who did that.



I don't think anyone can know that without Disney's numbers. I really can't imagine paying attention to other guests enough to come up with any kind of theory like this.


----------



## Evita_W

Lilsia said:


> Another issue, at WDW at least, was that before they made the queues wheelchair/ECV friendly, families would rent a wheelchair to get to the FOTL. We saw that many times with family members taking turns who would sit in the chair. I am glad that they fixed that because that is a special kind of horrible person that does that. I still will hear in passing, people in ECVs arguing with cast members about skipping the line like they used to.


Plus, in all honesty, some queues are really part of the attraction and the fact they had to skip them actually meant they were missing out on some things. Even FP queues, which those with a DAS return to now have that problem to a certain extent, but then it is equal to others who have FPs that anyone can get, unlike before where you completely skipped a lot of it.


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## Evita_W

HarleenQ said:


> For sure. I remember an article that came out when Cars Land in DLR opened saying the number of GAC users was an astronomical number.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone can know that without Disney's numbers. I really can't imagine paying attention to other guests enough to come up with any kind of theory like this.


When you are stuck waiting, you tend to pay closer attention.


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## HarleenQ

Evita_W said:


> When you are stuck waiting, you tend to pay closer attention.



Sure, but it's still entirely anecdotal.


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## SueM in MN

HarleenQ said:


> For sure. I remember an article that came out when Cars Land in DLR opened saying the number of GAC users was an astronomical number....
> I don't think anyone can know that without Disney's numbers. I really can't imagine paying attention to other guests enough to come up with any kind of theory like this.


This is the article I think you were thinking of. It talks about how large numbers  of Fastpass ‘slots’ at Disneyland Racers were being used by guests using GAC. Many were getting off and going right back into the Fastpass line.
(Scroll down to the LINE KING story.
http://micechat.com/miceage/allutz/al091812a.htm
Around the Time GAC (Guest Assistance Card) was changing to DAS (Disability Access Service, the current program), there were a lot of blog posts and things on Facebook pages from people with disabilities about how they regularly used GAC to ride over and - often attractions which were very popular and had long waits.
Many of them were Disneyland Annual Pass holders with disabled children who wrote they went to Disneyland several times a week, rode the headliners several times and then went home.
One that really stuck with me was someone who wrote their ‘usual’ trip to Disneyland during the Christmas holidays - including Christmas Day - was to go to the park in the morning, use GAC to ride all the headliners, watch the parade using the handicapped area, then leave.
Many of those posts were deleted, can no longer be found or the pages were made private.
I also read all of the statements in the lawsuit complaint; they are all pretty similar to the testimony that was posted earlier in the thread. Many talk about ‘needing’ to ride things in a specific order and repeating the same attraction multiple times in a row.
The disabled people in the lawsuit are mostly Autistic, so they were definitely disabled people overusing GAC.


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## tarheelmjfan

I have a question that I honestly don't know the answer to. Reading through this thread I noticed some people mentioning that the use of DAS combined with FP+ provides them with a good park experience. Am I misunderstanding how the system works or doesn't this already give guests with DAS an advantage over most park guests? It sounds like Disney is going above & beyond for those who qualify for DAS, because they are offering more than equal ride access for those guests.  Am I missing something?

FWIW, I have no problem with people using both systems simultaneously. I may have to get a DAS on a future trip myself & had no idea it was possible to use both. In my case, it would make very little to no difference for other park guests.  Due to my health issues, I can't ride a large majority of the most popular rides anyway.


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## HarleenQ

tarheelmjfan said:


> I have a question that I honestly don't know the answer to. Reading through this thread I noticed some people mentioning that the use of DAS combined with FP+ provides them with a good park experience. Am I misunderstanding how the system works or doesn't this already give guests with DAS an advantage over most park guests? It sounds like Disney is going above & beyond for those who qualify for DAS, because they are offering more than equal ride access for those guests.  Am I missing something?
> 
> FWIW, I have no problem with people using both systems simultaneously. I may have to get a DAS on a future trip myself & had no idea it was possible to use both. In my case, it would make very little to no difference for other park guests.  Due to my health issues, I can't ride a large majority of the most popular rides anyway.



I guess it depends on your perspective. 

We both schedule our FP+ and head into the park. You head into line for Space Mountain for standby, and I grab a DAS return time for Space Mountain for standby -10 minutes. We are for the most part waiting the same amount of time for Space, so that part isn't really advantageous. 

Where people seem to find the DAS is a higher benefit is that while you are waiting in standby, I can go and ride Buzz Lightyear or eat at Cosmic Rays. When I'm done, I jump into the FP line and we end up riding at the same time (not really, but you get it). So, I can technically multi-task while you're standing in line. 

Obviously, there are so many other individual factors that go into this scenario and I'm completely oversimplifying it for a lot of people that use the DAS - but it's a quick sum up of why people feel it's an advantage. I personally don't think it makes that much of a difference when we both end our days and look back on what we did and timelines. The only time I could see it being an added benefit is crazy headliner rides that have insane wait times, but at the same time, while the DAS has a return time for something like that it cannot be used elsewhere.


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## tarheelmjfan

HarleenQ said:


> I guess it depends on your perspective.
> 
> We both schedule our FP+ and head into the park. You head into line for Space Mountain for standby, and I grab a DAS return time for Space Mountain for standby -10 minutes. We are for the most part waiting the same amount of time for Space, so that part isn't really advantageous.
> 
> Where people seem to find the DAS is a higher benefit is that while you are waiting in standby, I can go and ride Buzz Lightyear or eat at Cosmic Rays. When I'm done, I jump into the FP line and we end up riding at the same time (not really, but you get it). So, I can technically multi-task while you're standing in line.
> 
> Obviously, there are so many other individual factors that go into this scenario and I'm completely oversimplifying it for a lot of people that use the DAS - but it's a quick sum up of why people feel it's an advantage. I personally don't think it makes that much of a difference when we both end our days and look back on what we did and timelines. The only time I could see it being an added benefit is crazy headliner rides that have insane wait times, but at the same time, while the DAS has a return time for something like that it cannot be used elsewhere.


Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a FP+ for FOP (for example), then getting a DAS to ride again. That would be a major advantage, but maybe that's not possible. 

PS: That wouldn't make a difference for me, because I can't ride FOP anyway. We could possibly benefit from the scenario you mentioned, but there wouldn't be much running around. I'd be using the DAS to rest my back & knees between rides & avoid steps, if that is a disability that qualifies. If not, no Disney for me anymore.


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## HarleenQ

tarheelmjfan said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a FP+ for FOP (for example), then getting a DAS to ride again. That would be a major advantage, but maybe that's not possible.
> 
> PS: That wouldn't make a difference for me, because I can't ride FOP anyway. We could possibly benefit from the scenario you mentioned, but there wouldn't be much running around. I'd be using the DAS to rest my back & knees between rides & avoid steps, if that is a disability that qualifies. If not, no Disney for me anymore.



That is a possibility. I can get a DAS return time in the morning and ride with a FP+ at 12p, then use the DAS return time when the wait is up. The DAS and FP+ aren't necessarily connected in that way. 

It sounds like if resting your back and knees is the main concern Disney would recommend renting a wheelchair or EVC versus offering a DAS. Typically mobility/stamina/etc does not qualify for a DAS.


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## tarheelmjfan

HarleenQ said:


> That is a possibility. I can get a DAS return time in the morning and ride with a FP+ at 12p, then use the DAS return time when the wait is up. The DAS and FP+ aren't necessarily connected in that way.
> 
> It sounds like if resting your back and knees is the main concern Disney would recommend renting a wheelchair or EVC versus offering a DAS. Typically mobility/stamina/etc does not qualify for a DAS.


Yeah, that's an advantage that most people should be happy with & not expect more.

I would definitely need to get an answer on the DAS, before booking a trip. I use a cane, but won't give in to use a wheelchair or ECV until I absolutely have to. Plus, sitting all day kills my back too. Just as autism isn't the same for everyone, physical handicaps aren't either. If it's not possible, to do Disney without a wheelchair or ECV, I'll survive. When we want a theme park fix, we can just go to Universal & stay in one of their deluxe hotels.


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## HarleenQ

tarheelmjfan said:


> Yeah, that's an advantage that most people should be happy with & not expect more.
> 
> I would definitely need to get an answer on the DAS, before booking a trip. I use a cane, but won't give in to use a wheelchair or ECV until I absolutely have to. Plus, sitting all day kills my back too. Just as autism isn't the same for everyone, physical handicaps aren't either. If it's not possible, to do Disney without a wheelchair or ECV, I'll survive. When we want a theme park fix, we can just go to Universal & stay in one of their deluxe hotels.



Unfortunately, you will not get an answer until you are in the park. When people need an answer before going I just refer them to the DAS FAQ. 

Wheelchairs and EVCs do not have to be in use the whole time if it's helpful for you to be mobile off and on. You could also, absolutely, bring your cane.


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## tarheelmjfan

HarleenQ said:


> Unfortunately, you will not get an answer until you are in the park. When people need an answer before going I just refer them to the DAS FAQ.
> 
> Wheelchairs and EVCs do not have to be in use the whole time if it's helpful for you to be mobile off and on. You could also, absolutely, bring your cane.


Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking?  In all seriousness, that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't get one, but it is a consideration.
Thanks again for answering my question & for all the info you've provided.


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## HarleenQ

tarheelmjfan said:


> Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking?  In all seriousness, that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't get one, but it is a consideration.
> Thanks again for answering my question & for all the info you've provided.



I have not. I don't really pay attention to other people on vacation (aside from polite awareness), but I also have pretty gnarly RBF - I'm sure that doesn't help!


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## tarheelmjfan

HarleenQ said:


> It sounds like if resting your back and knees is the main concern Disney would recommend renting a wheelchair or EVC versus offering a DAS. Typically mobility/stamina/etc does not qualify for a DAS.



Sorry to quote the same post twice, but as I was telling my DH this info it struck me as funny. It's so generous of Disney to charge me for a wheelchair or ECV that I don't require, because my disability doesn't fit their definition of someone who needs a DAS.  Honestly, I wouldn't want one, if it was free. The thought that I would have to pay extra to enjoy the parks, when we're posting on a disability thread about people expecting to ride a ride multiple times, with no wait, did make me laugh.


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## tarheelmjfan

HarleenQ said:


> I have not. I don't really pay attention to other people on vacation (aside from polite awareness), but I also have pretty gnarly RBF - I'm sure that doesn't help!


Back in the older days of the DIS threads discussing that topic would get downright nasty. Sadly, I've also seen it in the parks.


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## Betty Rohrer

tarheelmjfan said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a FP+ for FOP (for example), then getting a DAS to ride again. That would be a major advantage, but maybe that's not possible.
> 
> PS: That wouldn't make a difference for me, because I can't ride FOP anyway. We could possibly benefit from the scenario you mentioned, but there wouldn't be much running around. I'd be using the DAS to rest my back & knees between rides & avoid steps, if that is a disability that qualifies. If not, no Disney for me anymore.


you could do what you say but the DAS would be for stand by time -10 minutes not as soon as they get off. some people make the mad rush at rope drop and then have a FP for later in the day to get 2 rides so it is possible for everyone. you can only have one return time at a time. not sure how a DAS is going to help you as there are fewer places to rest as less benches which are usually in use. I would plan on bringing my own resting spot a rollator, wheelchair or ECV as DAS only gets you a return time to the FP line.


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## LongLiveRafiki

tarheelmjfan said:


> Yeah, that's an advantage that most people should be happy with & not expect more.
> 
> I would definitely need to get an answer on the DAS, before booking a trip. I use a cane, but won't give in to use a wheelchair or ECV until I absolutely have to. Plus, sitting all day kills my back too. Just as autism isn't the same for everyone, physical handicaps aren't either. If it's not possible, to do Disney without a wheelchair or ECV, I'll survive. When we want a theme park fix, we can just go to Universal & stay in one of their deluxe hotels.



While Disney is required to accommodate disabilities, they are not required to provide a guest's preferred accommodation. Since the majority of lines are wheelchair/ECV accessible and the very few that aren't give a return time for mobility device users, that's considered the accommodation for mobility and stamina issues. I fully understand your concerns, as I have back, hip, and knee issues myself, and sometimes have to use a cane but am still young and not ready to use an ECV/wheelchair either. I do know that day will eventually come though.

Something to keep in mind (and what I try to tell myself to prepare for my future need for a device) is it's nothing to be embarrassed about. Disney is far more walking than most people do at home and there's nothing wrong with using a tool to help keep you out of pain. You don't have to sit in it all day. You can park it in each land with the ECV/wheelchair parking and walk around when you're able. In regards to people giving dirty looks, well some people are just going to be jerks and there's nothing you can do to change that. The vast majority of people though are likely to be too consumed with staring at their phone or spending time with their own family to think twice about whether someone gets out of a mobility device and walks for a bit.

I also understand why Disney does not offer a DAS for these issues. A DAS can involve more walking since you have to walk to the attraction to get the return time, then walk somewhere else to wait, then walk back again to enter the FP line. There may not be anywhere to sit as oftentimes the few benches are occupied and they sometimes don't allow you to sit at the quick service if you are not buying food. As a regular park goer, I'm sure you're familiar with the limited seating, but many others aren't. I could easily see the frustration some people would have with walking to get a return time to find there's no where to sit and then complaining that while Disney allowed them not to stand in line, they provided nowhere for them to sit outside the line. Since guest's tend to do far more walking around the parks (outside of the lines), and to the buses, standing in line for the buses, etc, none of which the DAS can accommodate, it makes sense that they recommend those who will have difficulty standing/walking in the queues to get a wheelchair/ECV as that really is the only way to guarantee you'll have a place to sit when you need it.

Also, there are unfortunately numerous people who have difficulty walking the parks everyday of a vacation for a multitude of reasons. People with back, knee, hip, or ankle injuries, joint replacements, plantar fasciitis, arthritis, osteoporosis, and so, so many other medical issues that affect mobility and stamina. People who may not require the use of a mobility device at home, but find that Disney requires far more walking than what they are used to or can handle.

If DAS were given out to all of these people, FP lines would undoubtedly end up being packed with people with DAS return times, making the lines even longer, as it was with GAC. Those using the DAS would be upset because the FP line is now 30 or 45 mins instead of the 10 that it is now, which would make it more difficult or impossible for many disabled folks to even wait in that line. The standby waits would also increase since more people are in the FP lines, which in turn would leave more people with requesting DAS accommodation because while they can manage what the lines are now, they may not be able to manage if the lines become significantly longer. It's just not really a sustainable accommodation from a park operations standpoint to provide DAS for mobility and stamina issues.


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## kaytieeldr

tarheelmjfan said:


> Sorry to quote the same post twice, but as I was telling my DH this info it struck me as funny. It's so generous of Disney to charge me for a wheelchair or ECV that I don't require, because my disability doesn't fit their definition of someone who needs a DAS.  Honestly, I wouldn't want one, if it was free. The thought that I would have to pay extra to enjoy the parks, when we're posting on a disability thread about people expecting to ride a ride multiple times, with no wait, did make me laugh.


In that case, most of us recommend a rollator. If provides suppor while walking or standing, and a seat when necessary.


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## 5kidsmommy

tarheelmjfan said:


> I have a question that I honestly don't know the answer to. Reading through this thread I noticed some people mentioning that the use of DAS combined with FP+ provides them with a good park experience. Am I misunderstanding how the system works or doesn't this already give guests with DAS an advantage over most park guests? It sounds like Disney is going above & beyond for those who qualify for DAS, because they are offering more than equal ride access for those guests.  Am I missing something?
> 
> FWIW, I have no problem with people using both systems simultaneously. I may have to get a DAS on a future trip myself & had no idea it was possible to use both. In my case, it would make very little to no difference for other park guests.  Due to my health issues, I can't ride a large majority of the most popular rides anyway.



Techinically yes but many of us that have a child that use DAS don't stay in the parks long so it's not really a huge advantage. I'd gladly give up DAS to have a kid that could be out and about longer than 3-4 hours at a time. We still have to wait so it's not something we use on headliners because we just won't be in the parks long enough  use it. Hope that makes sense.


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## tarheelmjfan

Betty Rohrer said:


> *you could do what you say but the DAS would be for stand by time -10 minutes not as soon as they get off.* some people make the mad rush at rope drop and then have a FP for later in the day to get 2 rides so it is possible for everyone. you can only have one return time at a time. not sure how a DAS is going to help you as there are fewer places to rest as less benches which are usually in use. I would plan on bringing my own resting spot a rollator, wheelchair or ECV as DAS only gets you a return time to the FP line.



If that's the case, I have no problem with that. I don't expect to skip the lines.  I just can't stand for a long period of time or climb stairs. Sadly, our mad rush at rope drop days are long gone. I'd be trampled as I hobble along. We have to hang back to avoid the rush.



LongLiveRafiki said:


> While Disney is required to accommodate disabilities, they are not required to provide a guest's preferred accommodation. Since the majority of lines are wheelchair/ECV accessible and the very few that aren't give a return time for mobility device users, that's considered the accommodation for mobility and stamina issues. I fully understand your concerns, as I have back, hip, and knee issues myself, and sometimes have to use a cane but am still young and not ready to use an ECV/wheelchair either. I do know that day will eventually come though.
> 
> What made you think I thought they are required to accommodate me? I've already said that I don't have to go to Disney & won't, if my situation can't be accommodated in a manner that works for me. There are many vacation options. It's really not a big deal to me. Until this evening, I never thought about this situation. I do think it's wrong that physical disabilities can require you to pay extra, when other disabilities don't.
> 
> I don't know how young you are, but I was diagnosed with my autoimmune diseases at 27.  Naturally, they've gotten worse through the years & caused a lot of damage to my body. I'm sorry you're dealing with it too. If you ever want someone to commiserate with, please feel free to PM me.
> 
> Something to keep in mind (and what I try to tell myself to prepare for my future need for a device) is it's nothing to be embarrassed about. Disney is far more walking than most people do at home and there's nothing wrong with using a tool to help keep you out of pain. You don't have to sit in it all day. You can park it in each land with the ECV/wheelchair parking and walk around when you're able. In regards to people giving dirty looks, well some people are just going to be jerks and there's nothing you can do to change that. The vast majority of people though are likely to be too consumed with staring at their phone or spending time with their own family to think twice about whether someone gets out of a mobility device and walks for a bit.
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but I'm simply not ready for that. I see no reason to use a wheelchair or ECV, when I can walk. Yes, I walk slowly & can't walk or stand for a long period of time, but I can walk. I can't climb stairs, but can walk a ramp or flat surface. I'm grateful for that.
> 
> I also understand why Disney does not offer a DAS for these issues. A DAS can involve more walking since you have to walk to the attraction to get the return time, then walk somewhere else to wait, then walk back again to enter the FP line. There may not be anywhere to sit as oftentimes the few benches are occupied and they sometimes don't allow you to sit at the quick service if you are not buying food. As a regular park goer, I'm sure you're familiar with the limited seating, but many others aren't. I could easily see the frustration some people would have with walking to get a return time to find there's no where to sit and then complaining that while Disney allowed them not to stand in line, they provided nowhere for them to sit outside the line. Since guest's tend to do far more walking around the parks (outside of the lines), and to the buses, standing in line for the buses, etc, none of which the DAS can accommodate, it makes sense that they recommend those who will have difficulty standing/walking in the queues to get a wheelchair/ECV as that really is the only way to guarantee you'll have a place to sit when you need it.
> 
> Couldn't my DH or DS walk to the attraction to get a return time for the 3 of us similar to the old fastpasses? We've never had a problem finding an out of the way place to sit & would have no problem buying drinks & a snack to have a place to sit. I'd rather throw the snacks away than have to leave the park, because the pain makes it impossible to stay any longer.
> 
> Also, there are unfortunately numerous people who have difficulty walking the parks everyday of a vacation for a multitude of reasons. People with back, knee, hip, or ankle injuries, joint replacements, plantar fasciitis, arthritis, osteoporosis, and so, so many other medical issues that affect mobility and stamina. People who may not require the use of a mobility device at home, but find that Disney requires far more walking than what they are used to or can handle.
> 
> 
> If DAS were given out to all of these people, FP lines would undoubtedly end up being packed with people with DAS return times, making the lines even longer, as it was with GAC. Those using the DAS would be upset because the FP line is now 30 or 45 mins instead of the 10 that it is now, which would make it more difficult or impossible for many disabled folks to even wait in that line. The standby waits would also increase since more people are in the FP lines, which in turn would leave more people with requesting DAS accommodation because while they can manage what the lines are now, they may not be able to manage if the lines become significantly longer. It's just not really a sustainable accommodation from a park operations standpoint to provide DAS for mobility and stamina issues.



If that's the case, they need to stop calling it Disability Access Service. That's a misnomer. It doesn't include physically disabilities at all. Some people who are physically disabled don't require a wheelchair or ECV.

*Replies in red.



kaytieeldr said:


> In that case, most of us recommend a rollator. If provides suppor while walking or standing, and a seat when necessary.



Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it.



5kidsmommy said:


> Techinically yes but many of us that have a child that use DAS don't stay in the parks long so it's not really a huge advantage. I'd gladly give up DAS to have a kid that could be out and about longer than 3-4 hours at a time. We still have to wait so it's not something we use on headliners because we just won't be in the parks long enough  use it. Hope that makes sense.



In case I wasn't clear, I wasn't questioning people being able to simultaneously use FP+ & DAS. I think it's great that people have a workable solution.  I just think the plaintiffs in this case are asking for too much. FWIW, I understand not being able to spend more than 3-4 hours in the parks. I'm in the same position & it stinks.


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## LongLiveRafiki

tarheelmjfan said:


> If that's the case, they need to stop calling it Disability Access Service. That's a misnomer. It doesn't include physically disabilities at all. Some people who are physically disabled don't require a wheelchair or ECV.



Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote your responses that were within my reply, but I do want to reply to them all. I wasn't in any way trying to insinuate that you thought they were required to accommodate you in a specific way, so sorry if it read like that. 

I injured my hip at 17 and, despite surgeries, have had issues with my strength, range of motion, and overall mobility since. I'm 30 now, and have osteoarthritis in my hips, knees, and SI joints, along with some other issues all stemming from that initial injury 13 years ago. It really sucks to have a disability and I'm sorry that you're going through it too. My door is open as well if you ever want to talk. It sounds like we are in a similar boat with our physical capabilities. I can sort of do stairs if I have to, but I can only step up (still painfully) with my right leg and then have to pull the left up after. Both of my kids as toddlers tried to "teach me" to walk up stairs by alternating legs and I'll admit it made me cry both times. I too am grateful though that I still have some mobility.

Back to the topic though, yes, with a DAS you can have a "runner" from your party get the return times. I know there are some families who do that and others who can't because they are travelling alone or only with young kids. I think it is possible for someone to use the DAS and not have to walk more, but it can vary. The bench nearby you were planning on waiting at might be occupied, the bathroom or nearest quick service might be a little ways away, etc. On my last trip, I almost never saw an unoccupied bench, and did see CMs trying to keep people from loitering too long at the QS tables. I found ways to sit when needed on planters or by hitting up a show, or a couple times sitting on the curb (and thankfully DH was there to help me back up) etc, but my overall point was simply that Disney can't guarantee a place to sit for people throughout the parks who need it. 

I agree that calling it Disability Access Service is confusing when it really is only meant to accommodate disabilities that are affected by specifically waiting in a queue environment, and even then it only applies to the ride queues. There are lots of disabilities that someone would not need a DAS for (those in a wheelchair, someone who is deaf, someone with an amputated arm, etc), but by having "disability" in the name, it makes it sound like they would. I kind of wish they would change the name as I've encountered lots of posts on here and other places where people are upset when they get to Disney and find that the DAS didn't keep them from waiting in line for the buses or at a QS. Or others who think they have to get a DAS to use their wheelchair since they are disabled and the DAS says Disability in the name. It's not so much about just having a disability in and of itself but rather the issues a disability causes that makes waiting in the ride queue impossible and which can't be accommodated in any other way except spending the majority of the wait outside of the ride queue.


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## SPLzero

@LongLiveRafiki  I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines?  Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?

We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.

@HarleenQ let's say it's 11am space mountain has an hour wait. You have a fast pass for tomorrow land speed say for 11am. You get DAS for SM, use your FP for speedway, and ride people mover since you still have time before you can ride SM.  I just ride stand by on SM with a FP for Speedway at 12pm. You would have rode SM,Speedway, people mover, and have 20 min to spare and I would have just rode SM and speedway.

I get not everyone uses DAS to this extent but to say looking back at even your timeline I don't understand your thinking.  Where there is no advantage.

I'm not against DAS just trying to understand both of your points of view.


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## kaytieeldr

SPLzero said:


> @LongLiveRafiki I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines? Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?


A mobility device is the solution for physical disabilities, whereas a comparable solution for cognitive disabilities doesn't really exist.


SPLzero said:


> We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.


No legal battle when non-disabled persons are also being lrevented from lingering too long.


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## SirDuff

SPLzero said:


> I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines?  Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?
> 
> Essentially, yes.  For someone whose disability is just mobility related, a wheelchair/ECV/rollator gives them equal access.  For those with other (or additional) disabilities, a mobility device doesn't give them equal access, so they need another method (which, in this case, is the DAS).





SPLzero said:


> let's say it's 11am space mountain has an hour wait. You have a fast pass for tomorrow land speed say for 11am. You get DAS for SM, use your FP for speedway, and ride people mover since you still have time before you can ride SM.  I just ride stand by on SM with a FP for Speedway at 12pm. You would have rode SM,Speedway, people mover, and have 20 min to spare and I would have just rode SM and speedway.
> 
> I get not everyone uses DAS to this extent but to say looking back at even your timeline I don't understand your thinking.  Where there is no advantage.
> 
> I'm not against DAS just trying to understand both of your points of view.



Yes, in some cases, some people can use the DAS in such a way that they can fit in more rides than those not using the DAS.  Since everyone tours differently (and the same person may tour differently on different days), hard to really know how much of an advantage a DAS really gives.  Definitely less than the old system which (at least near the end) was essentially a blank fast pass.


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## SueM in MN

Previous version of Disney’s service for guests with disabilities were called:
Special Assistance Pass (SAP) and Guest Assistance Card (GA).

I think they named the current program Disability Access Service to clarify that it was for people with disabilities, not just any guest. I’ve seen posts in various places when it was SAP and GAC where people without disabilities rationalized that it was OK for their family to use it because of reasons like having multiple children, only spending a day in each park, this was the only trip they planned to take, etc. Their reasoning was that it didn’t _say_ it was for people with disabilities.

When a guest gets or renews DAS, there is a page of information (electronic) to read and sign that says what DAS does. It specifically says it allows guests to schedule a Return Time that is comparable to the current queue wait for the given attraction. The only things mentioned are line related and attraction waiting is mentioned multiple times. By signing it, you also acknowledge that the person has a disability requiring the service and that you accept the terms and conditions of the card.
You do have a chance to ask questions, so if someone wonders if it’s used for other lines, they could ask.


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## maxiesmom

tarheelmjfan said:


> Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking?  In all seriousness, that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't get one, but it is a consideration.
> Thanks again for answering my question & for all the info you've provided.



What other people think of you using a mobility device shouldn't be a concern at all.  They are not in your body, they don't know what you need to use to see the parks.  Judging someone for using a scooter is no different than judging someone for using a cane or eye glasses.  Anyone who judges you is a jerk at best, and isn't worth  your consideration.


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## mjr0483

5kidsmommy said:


> Techinically yes but many of us that have a child that use DAS don't stay in the parks long so it's not really a huge advantage. I'd gladly give up DAS to have a kid that could be out and about longer than 3-4 hours at a time. We still have to wait so it's not something we use on headliners because we just won't be in the parks long enough  use it. Hope that makes sense.



This is our situation as well. We can't be in the parks as long as everyone else. We book our FP+ 60 days in advance just like everyone else, but we often miss more than half of our return times for various reasons whether they are spread out too far apart and my son is done and we need to leave or we get to the park late.

Obviously the GAC worked better. We also weren't ones that needed to ride over and over again.
I am also sure Disney massaged the numbers to show a small percentage of the people consumed such a large amount of the ride capacity. They needed to make a case. Just like there is a 90 minute wait for Soarin at 8:59.

Just like Universal, Disney will sell front of the line access for VIP tours. It's ok if you pay for it.


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## gap2368

tarheelmjfan said:


> Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking?  In all seriousness, that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't get one, but it is a consideration.
> Thanks again for answering my question & for all the info you've provided.


I have never seen or heard of anyone saying anything halfway rude to my friend who also has to walk and sit thought out the day and she really looks just fine when she can walk there is no limp no slow walking nothing at all she is very good at knowing how long to sit and walk  There have been times I would start out in the ECV in long lines like the safari and then when the line stops I would get up and she would sit or we would do it the other way no one said a word to us.  The reason why no one care is because for the most part, people using those devices do not get any spleale treatment, for the most part, they wait in whatever line they have wather that is the FP or stand by. Thinking people will say something to you if you do not use  what ever device you have all the time should be the firther from your mind. You more then likly have a better chance of getting a free FP from a CM then a guest saying something about you getting out and walking.

As our @mamabunny would say it is a tool just like eyeglasses are a tool to see you would not go without eyeglasses if you could not see it is a tool to help you enjoy your trip and be pain-free that is it nothing more nothing less.


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## SueM in MN

maxiesmom said:


> What other people think of you using a mobility device shouldn't be a concern at all.  They are not in your body, they don't know what you need to use to see the parks.  Judging someone for using a scooter is no different than judging someone for using a cane or eye glasses.  Anyone who judges you is a jerk at best, and isn't worth of your consideration.


So true. Some people are just jerks and it doesn’t matter how disabled you are, they will still comment. Many assume if you are not sitting in the wheelchair all the time, it means you don’t need it.
One day, my daughter and I were sitting on a bench in Germany overlooking the water when we heard 2 guys behind us making comments. Her wheelchair was parked next to her and one guy said, « Look at that. It’s too bad people like that rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in lines. » The other guy agreed; I shot them both a look.
What they didn’t see was that my daughter can’t get out of her wheelchair herself. I had to lift her out and place her on the bench. She had her legs crossed and was swinging her top leg, but she even needed help with that; she can’t lift her leg to cross it herself. And, her wheelchair has custom seating and doesn’t  look like a rental. All they saw was a few minutes of her day and made jerky comments about something they knew nothing about.


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## Lilsia

tarheelmjfan said:


> Sorry to quote the same post twice, but as I was telling my DH this info it struck me as funny. It's so generous of Disney to charge me for a wheelchair or ECV that I don't require, because my disability doesn't fit their definition of someone who needs a DAS.  Honestly, I wouldn't want one, if it was free. The thought that I would have to pay extra to enjoy the parks, when we're posting on a disability thread about people expecting to ride a ride multiple times, with no wait, did make me laugh.



I guess that I don't see it as that way. I see it as everyone is responsible for themselves and should not expect a company to have to provide what you need for your medical issue. People with diabetes do not expect Disney to provide insulin, they don't give you free incontinence products, etc. It is nice that grocery stores provide the ECV's for shopping. But WDW is just too big to do that, especially with the amount of people that would take them up on that offer. And then if they run out, we all know that there will be people go ape S**t on them. "Disney ruined my vacation because they ran out of free ECVs", etc. There is something about Disney that makes people feel more entitled to get things for free I have noticed. All vacations are expensive, ever been to Hawaii? But nobody expects other locations to cater to them as they do Disney.


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## Lilsia

NVM


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## gap2368

tarheelmjfan said:


> Sorry to quote the same post twice, but as I was telling my DH this info it struck me as funny. It's so generous of Disney to charge me for a wheelchair or ECV that I don't require, because my disability doesn't fit their definition of someone who needs a DAS.  Honestly, I wouldn't want one, if it was free. The thought that I would have to pay extra to enjoy the parks, when we're posting on a disability thread about people expecting to ride a ride multiple times, with no wait, did make me laugh.


Some times having a disability means paying more I use a DAS which is free but for a long time did not help with all my needs if I wanted to see the fireworks I had to pay for a dessert party ( those are pricy and I do not like a lot of desserts ) I live a few hours away and drive to Disney but I still have to stay on-site since I just can not drive home or to the hotel, after a day in the park my disability prevents me from doing this ( without my disability I could stay at a cheaper hotel off-site tried it and it was a disaster)  I stayed for New years eve wanted to be at the MK it was one of the hardest things I have ever done but so worth it, I know with my disability there would be no way I could handle the busses after the midnight fireworks so I stayed at the contemporary yep very pricey new years eve.  Please do not look at using a tool to help you enjoy the park do not look at it as an extra expense but look at it as you get more time in the parks since you will not be in pain do not look at it as you are giving up something but look at it as you are getting something.

The DAS will not help you find somewhere to sit it will not making walking places shorter a wheelchair ECV or roller will give you a place to sit when and where you need it it will help cut down on the walking ( roller will not) it will give you more time in the parks where you can be doing things and having fun in return you will be saving money.  Please do not just put off Disney because you might have to use a mobility device some of the time.  and you can use the FP system to your advantage by getting more FP once you use your first 3 I know people that never wait in line longer than 20-30 minutes you just have to refresh the app for a few minutes


----------



## HarleenQ

SPLzero said:


> @LongLiveRafiki  I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines?  Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?
> 
> We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.
> 
> @HarleenQ let's say it's 11am space mountain has an hour wait. You have a fast pass for tomorrow land speed say for 11am. You get DAS for SM, use your FP for speedway, and ride people mover since you still have time before you can ride SM.  I just ride stand by on SM with a FP for Speedway at 12pm. You would have rode SM,Speedway, people mover, and have 20 min to spare and I would have just rode SM and speedway.
> 
> I get not everyone uses DAS to this extent but to say looking back at even your timeline I don't understand your thinking.  Where there is no advantage.
> 
> I'm not against DAS just trying to understand both of your points of view.



Yes, I may have done that in that chunk of time (your example). And looking at that sliver of my park day it does seem advantageous (and can be at times depending how it is used).

However, since my daughter is unable to wait in the standby line if it's lengthy it eliminates a lot of rides unless I have a DAS return time. Where you might be able to jump into that 30 minute standby line for Buzz, we can't. If all the rides have lengthier waits, we have to find something else to do with our time. Maybe we can meet a character. Maybe we can't. Maybe we can grab a bite to eat. Maybe we can't if it looks too crowded. Our days are very much about playing it by ear outside of our 3 FP+ options.

We schedule a lot of character meals to help avoid lines and attempt to kill 2 birds with one stone - eating and meeting. While I'm in the character meal you might get 2 - 3 rides in. Then we take into consideration your example of you being in standby for SM and all the tings I've gotten done - you're still "ahead" or "equal" to what I've done. It's a very real possibility that I do not get a FP for something and am unwilling to get a return time because of the amount of time it would tie our DAS up.

It's really hard to compare apples to apples with someone that uses the DAS - everyone tours different. I don't know what is most important to you to do/see versus what is most important to us. By the time we both leave the park and look back at our days and what we've done, I'm betting it's fairly equal in what we've done - regardless of how much I squeezed into 1 of your standby waits. I can say with a pretty fair amount of certainty that DAS users are not crushing double the amount of stuff compared to a non DAS user on a given day. I think MK is also more difficult to give examples with because there's so much more compared to the other parks. There's much more to do while your DAS time is tied up.

To be perfectly honest, I've never even ridden the Speedway or People Mover! Our time is typically spent on that stupid card game thing because the standby lines aren't doable. Just depends on the timing.


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## HarleenQ

tarheelmjfan said:


> If that's the case, they need to stop calling it Disability Access Service. That's a misnomer. It doesn't include physically disabilities at all. Some people who are physically disabled don't require a wheelchair or ECV.



I wouldn't call it a misnomer. It IS for disabilities, but having a disability doesn't necessarily mean you need the DAS. 

For someone who needs to sit frequently or can't stand long in general - they want a seat when they need it. The only way to guarantee a seat is a wheelchair or EVC. It solves the problem of needing to sit/stand at will, etc. Could the DAS also offer them a benefit to their issue? Sure. But that's where Disney gets to decide what accommodation they provide. Offering wheelchairs and EVCs allows guests to solve their problem AND go through standby lines versus adding more bodies to the FP+ line with the DAS. 

Again, it may not be preferred, and plenty of people feel offended at the idea... but it's a good solution. Even when it isn't liked. 

What happens if a guest who needs to sit down at will can't find a seat? They sit on the ground? Not an appropriate solution. I used to work for the Resorts phone line and some of the things people would ask for the old GAC for were mind blowing - my favorites were a boy with a broken arm because he'll get fatigued faster throughout the day, and a pregnant woman just because she's pregnant. I have a feeling it's part of the reason Disability is in the new program name.


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## Betty Rohrer

SPLzero said:


> @LongLiveRafiki  I don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines?  Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?
> 
> We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.
> 
> @HarleenQ let's say it's 11am space mountain has an hour wait. You have a fast pass for tomorrow land speed say for 11am. You get DAS for SM, use your FP for speedway, and ride people mover since you still have time before you can ride SM.  I just ride stand by on SM with a FP for Speedway at 12pm. You would have rode SM,Speedway, people mover, and have 20 min to spare and I would have just rode SM and speedway.
> 
> I get not everyone uses DAS to this extent but to say looking back at even your timeline I don't understand your thinking.  Where there is no advantage.
> 
> I'm not against DAS just trying to understand both of your points of view.


I have been when they had a CM stopping anyone without food from sitting at CS tables disabled or otherwise. it is wise to not plan on being able to sit there without food. not told to leave but not allowed to sit without food or drinks


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## SPLzero

So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.


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## HarleenQ

SPLzero said:


> So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.



Well, I guess it can sound that way to you, but that doesn't make it true. To me, it sounds like one of the reasons wheelchairs and EVCs were invented. 

Standing still is part of waiting in line. If you are unable to stand you need to sit. To sit you need a seat. A wheelchair or EVC is a seat. What happens when the FP+ line is longer than normal and the guest is required to stand longer than they're able to comfortably? Or the ride breaks down and there is a delay? Waiting for a parade or show? Without their seat, they're stuck in the same position they were before - standing which is difficult. The only solution to resolve ALL the scenarios a guest could run into is to offer a seat they can take with them wherever they go. 

Whether we like it or not, DAS users put more people in the FP+ line than FP+ have been given out. It has the ability to cause stress on the system. If there is an option for someone to receive an accommodation for their issue while not adding to that stress, Disney is within their legal right to advise that accommodation over something else. That's really all their is to it. 

Disney is not your home, work, area park, even your neighborhood theme park. There is an incredible amount of walking and movement that goes into a day at Disney. We all know that. People need things at Disney that they may not require to get through their normal lives.


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## Renarr

gap2368 said:


> *Some times having a disability means paying more* I use a DAS which is free but for a long time did not help with all my needs if I wanted to see the fireworks I had to pay for a dessert party ( those are pricy and I do not like a lot of desserts ) I live a few hours away and drive to Disney but I still have to stay on-site since I just can not drive home or to the hotel, after a day in the park my disability prevents me from doing this ( without my disability I could stay at a cheaper hotel off-site tried it and it was a disaster)  I stayed for New years eve wanted to be at the MK it was one of the hardest things I have ever done but so worth it, I know with my disability there would be no way I could handle the busses after the midnight fireworks so I stayed at the contemporary yep very pricey new years eve.  Please do not look at using a tool to help you enjoy the park do not look at it as an extra expense but look at it as you get more time in the parks since you will not be in pain do not look at it as you are giving up something but look at it as you are getting something.



This (especially the bolded part) is so true.  When we went on our 2015 trip before the incident that precipitated DW's need for DAS, we were travel for five days, go-from-open-to-close start-the-day-with-dawn-breakfast-end-the-day-with-fireworks non-stop no-crowd-would-bother-us no-weather-would-stop-us types.  Starting with our 2016 trip after the event, we were now people who traveled for ten days, hit-the-parks-for-two-to-three-hours-in-the-morning-before-taking-a-nap-and-trying-three-to-four-hours-in-the-evening how-could-we-have-thought-we-could-stay-up-for-Fantasmic-that-one-night still-sleeping-when-the-parks-open types.

It's a very different trip.  Both ways have had their perks, but we definitely have to stay more nights to get even close to the same park exposure as we got before.


----------



## 5kidsmommy

SPLzero said:


> So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.



DAS doesn't eliminate standing in line. As stated here it actually can require more walking because you have to go to the attraction to get a return time and then come back and then wait through the FP+ line. 

As far as needing a wheelchair my daughter has an automomic disorder. She is usually fine in everyday life. She can sit when she needs to or just lay down. SHe doesn't use a wheelchair at home ever. At WDW it's a must for her. DAS wouldn't help her.  The only thing that helps her at WDW is a wheelchair because she has stamina issues. Honestly even if her disability qualified her for DAS she'd still need a wheelchair since DAS doesn't eliminate standing or walking which are her issues.


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## seashoreCM

> Have you seen the looks & behind the back remarks people get, when they alternate between using a wheelchair or ECV & walking?



(I put this comment in various threads in various forums over the years.)

Suitable words to put on a a T-shirt or on a hat brim or on a sign on the back of a wheelchair: "I can walk -- only to first base."



> Our time is typically spent on that stupid card game thing because the standby lines aren't doable.


You mean those cards  and treasure map you get from Guest Relations and you go to various gift shops and hold up a card in front of the window outside and some lights flash or a puppet comes to life or a little door opens revealing a diorama? Yes I did that; it was quite interesting. I only wish I did not have to set priorities and choose between that and another ride with a long standby line because I was shut out of the Fastpass system because my last fastpass  was for Mine Train late in the evening. Whereas a similarly circumstanced DAS user could multitask and do both.


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## kaytieeldr

SPLzero said:


> So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.


Becaue there are medical/mobility devices that alleviate mobility or stamina issues, Disney has determined that he accommodation for affected guests is a mobility device. You can buy your own, or rent one, or borrow from a friend or relative or local lending cloet (church, service organization, etc.)

There is no comparable device for guests with autism, or anxiety, or claustrophobia _who need to wait somehere other than the queue_.


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## LongLiveRafiki

SPLzero said:


> don't understand how DAS would be ok for someone with a mental disability who can't wait in lines but not ok for someone with a physical disability who can't wait in lines? Is the only reason because they could use a wheelchair/ecv?





SPLzero said:


> So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.



For someone with mobility or stamina issues, the problem isn't the ride queue itself. It's the walking or standing or needing a place to sit. A DAS does not help with walking or standing, nor does it provide a place to sit. Others (and myself) have touched on this, but sure, one could argue that if granted a DAS you can then find a place to sit outside the line, but that's not guaranteed. You may find a spot or you may not. You may have to walk more to find a spot. You will still have to stand and wait in lines for QS and restaurants, bathrooms, and the buses at the end of the night. The only way to guarantee yourself a seat when you need it is to bring your own. Again, for mobility issues, the problem is not that someone can't wait in a ride queue, it's typically that someone needs a place to sit while waiting, which a mobility device accommodates. A person who for instance has a meltdown from the close quarters of the queue after a few mins has a problem with waiting in the queue itself and cannot be accommodated by any other available means as the problem is the the queue environment itself.

For someone whose problem is standing still in a queue, who doesn't need to sit but to walk, that can be helped some by creating a buffet in the line. Have someone in your group stand a couple feet behind you (or if you are by yourself, ask the guest behind you if they'd mind leaving a couple feet of space), that way you can take a couple of steps back and forth. I do this myself in lines as standing still gets my hips out of alignment and causes them to lock up, where as being able to pace a couple of feet back and forth helps to prevent that from happening. 



SPLzero said:


> We go to Disney maybe 3-4 times a month and never had a problem finding a place to sit when child swapping. I've never been told to get up from a QS table. I think that would be a whole nother legal battle if they told a disabled person they have sat to long at a QS table and they have to leave.



Again, others have touched on this, but Disney is fully within their legal rights to only allow guests that are buying something from the QS to use the tables. As long as they aren't discriminating by saying fully abled guests can sit without purchase but disabled guests cannot, then there is no legal issue. And CMs really aren't trying to be mean by enforcing this. It's not really fair to other guests who have a tray full of food and no where to sit to eat because others are lingering at the tables long after they have eaten or haven't purchased food at all and are just looking for a place to rest. It's about use of the tables provided for guests who purchase food to be able to sit at to eat. On my last trip, I even saw CMs not allowing parties to save a table while the rest of their group waited in line to order, as it prevented others who already had their food from being able to sit and eat.


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## DisneyOma

ZJ5/9D47 said:


> All the extra waiting adds up over the day and trip and it really isn't equal or fair access not to mention the difficulty of an unexpected wait of that length in a noisy and crowded loading area with people shoving and bumping into you as they pass by since the disabled person in their party can transfer into any seat.  Disney doesn't even have designated "safe" areas for these disabled people and their groups to be placed so they can wait in the same relaxed way that every other guest experiences.  It is just being shoved to the side of a narrow path so people in scooters can hopefully not run into you.



I have yet to be in a standby queue that had a relaxed way to it. The Fp queues aren't too bad, but that's because they are usually moving. But I can't think of one queue I'd label relaxing?



Evita_W said:


> While there was some of the repeated rides, that was the minority.  But the allowing others to use it was a big problem that drove me nuts, so I am glad they do pictures now. Overall, from what I saw in visiting the parks (DLR) at least once a week at the time, the abuse was about 80% from the selling services (usually done by people who are disabled) and from the no disabled community and 20% the repeated rides, which yes I witnessed as well and yes, I reported clear abuses when I saw them. But technically at the time repeated ride wasn't considered abuse as it was within the rules, although not the spirit of the system, so nothing was ever done about those who did that.



I believe Disney proved that the ride capacity was severely restricted by multiple repeat riders with legitimate GACs  - and put that info in their rebuttal? It wasn't the posers, it was the sheer volume of GAC holders.



Evita_W said:


> When you are stuck waiting, you tend to pay closer attention.



How would you know they were not eligible for GAC?


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## HarleenQ

seashoreCM said:


> You mean those cards  and treasure map you get from Guest Relations and you go to various gift shops and hold up a card in front of the window outside and some lights flash or a puppet comes to life or a little door opens revealing a diorama? Yes I did that; it was quite interesting. I only wish I did not have to set priorities and choose between that and another ride with a long standby line because I was shut out of the Fastpass system because my last fastpass  was for Mine Train late in the evening. Whereas a similarly circumstanced DAS user could multitask and do both.



That's the one. It can be fun and cute, but we've also missed a ton of FP or had to move our entire day around because our autistic kid gets kind of locked into beating the whole thing. 

Or if there's 10 kids waiting for the same portal, or it's not reading the cards properly... I may or may not have melted down myself doing this!


----------



## tarheelmjfan

LongLiveRafiki said:


> Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote your responses that were within my reply, but I do want to reply to them all. I wasn't in any way trying to insinuate that you thought they were required to accommodate you in a specific way, so sorry if it read like that.
> 
> I injured my hip at 17 and, despite surgeries, have had issues with my strength, range of motion, and overall mobility since. I'm 30 now, and have osteoarthritis in my hips, knees, and SI joints, along with some other issues all stemming from that initial injury 13 years ago. It really sucks to have a disability and I'm sorry that you're going through it too. My door is open as well if you ever want to talk. It sounds like we are in a similar boat with our physical capabilities. I can sort of do stairs if I have to, but I can only step up (still painfully) with my right leg and then have to pull the left up after. Both of my kids as toddlers tried to "teach me" to walk up stairs by alternating legs and I'll admit it made me cry both times. I too am grateful though that I still have some mobility.
> 
> Sorry, I'm going to make another difficult quote, but it's the easiest way to do it.  Your story about your toddlers trying to teach you how to walk stairs breaks my heart.  I had a first grader that had to carry me food & drinks, while I was bedfast for 2 months, prior to having back surgery on 5 herniated discs. My DH had to work, so DS did what he could. I know exactly how you feel.  I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis at 27 that developed from sports injuries. I now also have osteoarthritis. These have resulted in a deteriorating spine, arthritis on my pelvic bones, right hip, jaws, hands, ankles, toes & bone on bone knees. My knees in particular balk at steps. I also have to lift my legs for steps. Without DH's help, I don't even attempt a few steps. More than 4 or 5 isn't happening. I can be very limiting. I hope they can save the cartilage & ligaments in your knees. I have none & have to rely on artificial injections to offer cushion. If your legs start sounding like Rice Krispies (snap, crackle, pop), go to the doctor immediately to see what they can do.
> 
> Back to the topic though, yes, with a DAS you can have a "runner" from your party get the return times. I know there are some families who do that and others who can't because they are travelling alone or only with young kids. I think it is possible for someone to use the DAS and not have to walk more, but it can vary. The bench nearby you were planning on waiting at might be occupied, the bathroom or nearest quick service might be a little ways away, etc. On my last trip, I almost never saw an unoccupied bench, and did see CMs trying to keep people from loitering too long at the QS tables. I found ways to sit when needed on planters or by hitting up a show, or a couple times sitting on the curb (and thankfully DH was there to help me back up) etc, but my overall point was simply that Disney can't guarantee a place to sit for people throughout the parks who need it.



It's awesome that you're still able to sit on curbs. I miss those day. There's no way I can do that now, but we've never had a problem finding a place to sit. If we have to buy a drink & snack to share, so be it.


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## tarheelmjfan

SueM in MN said:


> Previous version of Disney’s service for guests with disabilities were called:
> Special Assistance Pass (SAP) and Guest Assistance Card (GA).
> 
> I think they named the current program Disability Access Service to clarify that it was for people with disabilities, not just any guest. I’ve seen posts in various places when it was SAP and GAC where people without disabilities rationalized that it was OK for their family to use it because of reasons like having multiple children, only spending a day in each park, this was the only trip they planned to take, etc. Their reasoning was that it didn’t _say_ it was for people with disabilities.
> 
> When a guest gets or renews DAS, there is a page of information (electronic) to read and sign that says what DAS does. It specifically says it allows guests to schedule a Return Time that is comparable to the current queue wait for the given attraction. The only things mentioned are line related and attraction waiting is mentioned multiple times. By signing it, you also acknowledge that the person has a disability requiring the service and that you accept the terms and conditions of the card.
> You do have a chance to ask questions, so if someone wonders if it’s used for other lines, they could ask.



That's the thing. It doesn't appear to be for people with disabilities. It appears to be for people with selective disabilities. People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.



SueM in MN said:


> So true. Some people are just jerks and it doesn’t matter how disabled you are, they will still comment. Many assume if you are not sitting in the wheelchair all the time, it means you don’t need it.
> One day, my daughter and I were sitting on a bench in Germany overlooking the water when we heard 2 guys behind us making comments. Her wheelchair was parked next to her and one guy said, « Look at that. It’s too bad people like that rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in lines. » The other guy agreed; I shot them both a look.
> What they didn’t see was that my daughter can’t get out of her wheelchair herself. I had to lift her out and place her on the bench. She had her legs crossed and was swinging her top leg, but she even needed help with that; she can’t lift her leg to cross it herself. And, her wheelchair has custom seating and doesn’t  look like a rental. All they saw was a few minutes of her day and made jerky comments about something they knew nothing about.



I'm sad to see your DD has to deal with that.  I've read enough threads on this board to know how much judgement there is out there. It's great that there are people here who couldn't imagine anyone doing that, but it definitely happens.



Lilsia said:


> I guess that I don't see it as that way. I see it as everyone is responsible for themselves and should not expect a company to have to provide what you need for your medical issue. People with diabetes do not expect Disney to provide insulin, they don't give you free incontinence products, etc. It is nice that grocery stores provide the ECV's for shopping. But WDW is just too big to do that, especially with the amount of people that would take them up on that offer. And then if they run out, we all know that there will be people go ape S**t on them. "Disney ruined my vacation because they ran out of free ECVs", etc. There is something about Disney that makes people feel more entitled to get things for free I have noticed. All vacations are expensive, ever been to Hawaii? But nobody expects other locations to cater to them as they do Disney.



People with diabetes need insulin all the time. The same goes for those who are incontinent. That's not equivalent to people who can walk with or without a cane, crutches, etc. on a normal basis, but with need to rent a wheelchair or ECV at Disney, because they won't accommodate them otherwise.

I really don't get your attitude. It's totally uncalled for.  I make it clear that I'm perfectly fine with not going to Disney, if they can't provide a way for me to not stand for a long time or climb stairs. They don't own me anything. There are plenty of other places we can vacations.


----------



## SteveMouse

You are welcome to bring a rollator, wheelchair, or ECV of your own or rent from somewhere other than Disney. No one is forcing you to rent from Disney


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## kaytieeldr

tarheelmjfan said:


> People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV


No. Again, check with friends, neighbors, relatives, local churches, service organizations to see if there is an appropriate device that you can *borrow*. 


tarheelmjfran said:


> that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.


Every. Single. Disability. Is different. Even if the diagnosis is the same ( "_You_ have MS, and *you* have MS, and *you* have...") the solution is different. I hve mobility isdues (which i handle for short ditances with a rollator, and longer ones with an ECV) as well as panic attacks in Haunted Mansion.


tarheelmjfan said:


> People with diabetes need insulin all the time. The same goes for those who are incontinent. That's not equivalent to people who can walk with or without a cane, crutches, etc. on a normal basis


So, again. Disney gets to decide which accommodation(s) for which needs. I don't. You don't. @lanejudy doesn't. @gap2368 doesn't. 

You visit knowing what accommodation Disney will strongly recommend given one's needs.


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## DisneyOma

tarheelmjfan said:


> Wow. You really can be so nasty at times.    I never said I get to decide what Disney does.  I said I don't have to visit Disney, if they can't accommodate my situation in a way that works for me. I'm good with that. I have other options.
> 
> I totally support others who need DAS, but it's clear that's a one way street with many (not all) on this thread. Many people seem to only consider their situation & don't realize some physical disabilities are different from others. Regardless, I'm now done with this thread. My life is difficult enough without having to deal with attitudes like yours.



You can walk 8-10 miles a day with a cane? That's how much walking is done at WDW. Using 3 FP+ a day (which everyone gets) and then getting more as the day goes on wouldn't work? The DAS just gives you a different place to wait out the time. It doesn't get you on the attraction any faster, right?


----------



## Mrsjvb

tarheelmjfan said:


> Wow. You really can be so nasty at times.    I never said I get to decide what Disney does.  I said I don't have to visit Disney, if they can't accommodate my situation in a way that works for me. I'm good with that. I have other options.
> 
> I totally support others who need DAS, but it's clear that's a one way street with many (not all) on this thread. Many people seem to only consider their situation & don't realize some physical disabilities are different from others. Regardless, I'm now done with this thread. My life is difficult enough without having to deal with attitudes like yours.


 actually the obstinate one here is you.   you don't like the fact that you cant get your precise way and have decided that Disney is a big ole meany poopy head and are throwing a tantrum.  very self-pitying overall.  

I assure you we all are well aware that everyone's individual situation is different.   what we are trying to do, and you keep crapping on, is explain to you the way Disney has elected to handle the basic issue of mobility issues in lines.  if you don't think that is good enough for you, then that is NOT Disney's problem.   nor  is it their  issue that YOU seem to be  vehemently against using reasonable accommodations

how do you even KNOW that using an ECV or WC won't help if you refuse to even try?!


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## 5kidsmommy

tarheelmjfan said:


> Wow. You really can be so nasty at times.    I never said I get to decide what Disney does.  I said I don't have to visit Disney, if they can't accommodate my situation in a way that works for me. I'm good with that. I have other options.
> 
> I totally support others who need DAS, but it's clear that's a one way street with many (not all) on this thread. Many people seem to only consider their situation & don't realize some physical disabilities are different from others. Regardless, I'm now done with this thread. My life is difficult enough without having to deal with attitudes like yours.



SO how would DAS help you? It won't eliminate lines, it won't eliminate standing. It doesn't make your wait shorter. I'm just trying to undertand how you think DAS would assist you with your disability? At one point you mentioned stairs. DAS doesn't remove stairs but if you have a mobility issue and can;t do stairs they will direct you to an alternative enterance with or without DAS.


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## kaytieeldr

@DisneyOma, @Mrsjvb, @5kidsmommy - thank you all for such sensible, reasonable responses!


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## gap2368

SPLzero said:


> So because someone can walk and move around but has difficult time standing still for a long period of time they should be forced to use a wheelchair the entire day and not use DAS? It sounds like the reason why there are disability passes in the first place.


Take a moment next time your at Disney and look around at how many people are using mobility device and if half of them did not have a mobility and got a DAS and got a return time then went and found a place to sit all the place to sit would be taken   Every trip I have been on I have seen someone complaining and there not being places to site. ( my dad said something about the lack of sets just over a year after he walked the AT ( Georgia to Maine)  so he has no mobility problems at all). You can do what you want but Disney is thinking about the bigger picture there are just too many people that cN not walk or stand all day at Disney  for them to accommodate them any other way then to rent or use a mobility device.  I would love to do the standby lines ( 7DMT FOP looks amazing to me ) I have spent countless hours at the park hiding in a corner sitting on the ground crying because I would love to do the standby lines because I miss out on them yes it would be nice to chose our disabilities but we can’t  but place do not blame your lack of going back to Disney on anything but you do not want to use a tool to help you becuse it is nothing less and nothing more then that. I have read on here so many people that fought not to use a mobility device and once they did they realized how much it helped them.   No one is saying you must have your device with you all the time. Like I said most will not notice you have a mobility device since they no longer go to the front of the line they wait in lines just like everyone else. 

Anyways I hope you see that it is your attitude that is preventing you from going to Disney not Disney preventing you from going. And I do not mean for this to come across as harsh  I have fought the use of tool that would help me with my disabilities and had much worst out comes then just not going to a theme park. ( failed the first two semesters of college because I did not want the support from the schools disability department ) so I have been there too with not wanting to use a tool that was available to me


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## Betty Rohrer

tarheelmjfan said:


> That's the thing. It doesn't appear to be for people with disabilities. It appears to be for people with selective disabilities. People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sad to see your DD has to deal with that.  I've read enough threads on this board to know how much judgement there is out there. It's great that there are people here who couldn't imagine anyone doing that, but it definitely happens.
> 
> 
> 
> People with diabetes need insulin all the time. The same goes for those who are incontinent. That's not equivalent to people who can walk with or without a cane, crutches, etc. on a normal basis, but with need to rent a wheelchair or ECV at Disney, because they won't accommodate them otherwise.
> 
> I really don't get your attitude. It's totally uncalled for.  I make it clear that I'm perfectly fine with not going to Disney, if they can't provide a way for me to not stand for a long time or climb stairs. They don't own me anything. There are plenty of other places we can vacations.


I also tour with a cane now and you will be routed around any steps. how do I know, the  CM near the steps on Splash Mountain  sent me on the wheelchair route and I did not need DAS or anything to be sent that way. on Toy Story Mania I was sent to the new track which has no steps again no DAS needed the CM just sent me that way. I didn't even need to ask about missing the steps


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## matthewthompson87

HarleenQ said:


> I can say with a pretty fair amount of certainty that DAS users are not crushing double the amount of stuff compared to a non DAS user on a given day.



YES. THIS.

The (relatively short) queueafter being admitted for a DAS return time on some attractions can be challenging enough to need to find someplace quiet to decompress before moving onto another activity or attraction.

I understand that impression DAS might enable the ability for someone to “do more”, but that fundamentally mischaracterizes how visiting a theme park with a DAS qualifying disability really works in practice.


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## theluckyrabbit

HarleenQ said:


> ... I can say with a pretty fair amount of certainty that DAS users are not crushing double the amount of stuff compared to a non DAS user on a given day...





matthewthompson87 said:


> YES. THIS.
> 
> The (relatively short) queueafter being admitted for a DAS return time on some attractions can be challenging enough to need to find someplace quiet to decompress before moving onto another activity or attraction.
> 
> I understand that impression DAS might enable the ability for someone to “do more”, but that fundamentally mischaracterizes how visiting a theme park with a DAS qualifying disability really works in practice.


Totally agree. Before DAS (and MP!) there were many, many days when we didn't ride anything (= 0) at DL or DCA. It just wasn't physically possible for me to handle the queue and the ride together, FP or standby. With DAS, we could do one or two rides in a visit sometimes -- a big improvement! With DAS and MP? I still remember the first time we did 4 whole rides in one day -- DH was so proud of me! We have friends who use their DAS to do one ride each visit -- and that's a lot for them -- and without that help, they would not be able to do any rides at all. DAS doesn't secretly help us do "double the stuff" -- DAS allows many of us to do any of the stuff at all. And for that, we are very grateful.


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## lorenae

tarheelmjfan said:


> That's the thing. It doesn't appear to be for people with disabilities. It appears to be for people with selective disabilities. People like me who could tour the park with a cane, but not stand for a long period of time or climb stairs has to pay for and use a wheelchair/ECV that we wouldn't need, if given the same access as other disabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sad to see your DD has to deal with that.  I've read enough threads on this board to know how much judgement there is out there. It's great that there are people here who couldn't imagine anyone doing that, but it definitely happens.



This post brought tears to my eyes.   I have mobility issues, but that is not why I use DAS.   It’s not “selective disabilities”- it’s those disabilities that don’t allow me to wait in a standard line.   

I still sometimes have to leave the FP line after waiting for my DAS return time (7dmt especially- horribly loud and ‘frantic’ to me, Test track- too much standing with people pressing in, even with the DAS) so I ride less than you’d think.   But DAS gives me the opportunity to at least make the attempt.


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## gap2368

lorenae said:


> This post brought tears to my eyes.   I have mobility issues, but that is not why I use DAS.   It’s not “selective disabilities”- it’s those disabilities that don’t allow me to wait in a standard line.
> 
> I still sometimes have to leave the FP line after waiting for my DAS return time (7dmt especially- horribly loud and ‘frantic’ to me, Test track- too much standing with people pressing in, even with the DAS) so I ride less than you’d think.   But DAS gives me the opportunity to at least make the attempt.


Would using some type of mobility device ( if you are not already) and then when you get to the room where you stand on the number ask to be in the back of the room where you will not have people pushing up on you


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## ToyStoryManiaMouse

paisleys said:


> Guessing Attorney Dogali is/was expecting a huge payoff from Disney so it's a pay if you win situation.  I'm glad Disney is fighting this instead of just paying like usual.  Living in FL, I saw the rampant abuse.  I just chaperoned a field trip there where one of the kids told me their parents would have the kids  fake being disabled (I won't use the word she used and really had to bite my tongue that day!) to get the GAC.  That's just one of many stories I have.  A group of adults  looping Toy Story with a GAC because one  'had a bad back', yet they could golf all day.  I feel like the profoundly disabled have fallen through the cracks due to abuse but I don't know how they could gage being profoundly disabled or not.


It's not only "profoundly disabled" people who benefit from accommodations. I don't look disabled. I do need a DAS pass. But I do not agree with front of the line access for anyone. Just not fair and it invites people to take advantage of the system.


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## Tiggerish

This case went to trial in February. On Monday the court issued its ruling and decided against the Plaintiff and in favor of Disney.  Here is a link to a discussion of the decision. https://www.disboards.com/threads/disney-wins-first-das-ada-discrimination-lawsuit.3805252/


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## OurBigTrip

I just finished reading the decision, and I’ll just say that the mother in this case came off looking pretty bad.

Glad the judge decided as she did .


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## Boopuff

I also read the ruling.  Some interesting facts were presented (I found the percent of "non-DAS" guests getting the shaft on some of the popular rides. No wonder some of the top-tier rides were always a no-go!  Glad this has been resolved.  I'm sure the mom in this case will (hopefully) do her homework before schlepping 10 people to WDW.  (I love that they travel in a pack of 10)


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## fabfemmeboy

I was really interested in the statistics Disney had compiled about the GAC, the DAS, the impact on various tiers of rides, etc., and I agree - especially now with things like ROTR or FOP, people being able to essentially lie to get front of the line privileges would really hurt everyone else.  Obviously not everyone on GAC lied or abused it, but there were apparently a significant number who did and presumably would again if given the chance.  From a legal standpoint, this was a very simple, textual decision, but the court clearly came down factually on the side of Disney - which I agree with.  Mom definitely didn't come off looking good, especially given that a) she chose not to help prepare him at all and assumed he would be given whatever they asked for, and b) her son's own professionals have more faith in him and his abilities


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## DisneyOma

fabfemmeboy said:


> I was really interested in the statistics Disney had compiled about the GAC, the DAS, the impact on various tiers of rides, etc., and I agree - especially now with things like ROTR or FOP, people being able to essentially lie to get front of the line privileges would really hurt everyone else.  Obviously not everyone on GAC lied or abused it, but there were apparently a significant number who did and presumably would again if given the chance.  From a legal standpoint, this was a very simple, textual decision, but the court clearly came down factually on the side of Disney - which I agree with.  Mom definitely didn't come off looking good, especially given that a) she chose not to help prepare him at all and assumed he would be given whatever they asked for, and b) her son's own professionals have more faith in him and his abilities



Could you clarify that part I put in red? I didn't see any of that explained in the brief, and Disney has all along said the change to DAS was because instant repetitive FOTL access was the problem, not people pretending to have a disability.


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## Disney Frenhines

Boopuff said:


> I also read the ruling.  Some interesting facts were presented (I found the percent of "non-DAS" guests getting the shaft on some of the popular rides. No wonder some of the top-tier rides were always a no-go!  Glad this has been resolved.  I'm sure the mom in this case will (hopefully) do her homework before schlepping 10 people to WDW.  (I love that they travel in a pack of 10)


This is something that always bugs me about large groups with one person with disability and the others have none: that they all get to benefit. Take transportation as the best example - large group turns up at the bus stop just as a bus comes in. The rest of us waiting 20 minutes plus. What happens? The entire group trots on the bus despite the sign asking large groups to split up. Why can't they go in two groups? Only one person actually needs to go on with the disabled person. Nothing to stop the first group going into the park and wait for the second group to arrive. I'm sure they all have phones to let each other know where they are. I've never seen a group do that, but, I've seen groups turn up and take up all the seats and then 
sit put while mothers with babies and older guests who have been standing at a hot bus stop forever are left to strap hang. 

And enough of bringing pet dogs under the pretence of being an ESA into the parks too.


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## AnneK

ESA (Emotional Support) animals are not allowed at the parks, only genuine Service animals.


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## Hoodie

I finally read the ruling.  Goodness, the mom comes off poorly.  It sounds like she had a bigger issue with breaking routine than her son did.

Also her lack of planning was just stunning.  I think of all the hours I've taken to plan fastpasses, DAS, dining, breaks, etc. with EVERY trip (not even including the working on waiting, deferred gratification and the like that is constant in therapy and every day life) I just couldn't believe that she just showed up and expected FOL passes for everything.  Especially since she had been told repeatedly about the DAS changes and how it would work.  It's like she decided that all the changes didn't apply to her and her son at all.

FTR - it was 10 FOL passes for her party of 6 she decided she needed. So they could have FOL access 10 times. Honestly I was more surprised that Disney gave her as many as they did given it was a Christmas party and not a regular park day.


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## Boopuff

Disney Frenhines said:


> This is something that always bugs me about large groups with one person with disability and the others have none: that they all get to benefit. Take transportation as the best example - large group turns up at the bus stop just as a bus comes in. The rest of us waiting 20 minutes plus. What happens? The entire group trots on the bus despite the sign asking large groups to split up. Why can't they go in two groups? Only one person actually needs to go on with the disabled person. Nothing to stop the first group going into the park and wait for the second group to arrive. I'm sure they all have phones to let each other know where they are. I've never seen a group do that, but, I've seen groups turn up and take up all the seats and then
> sit put while mothers with babies and older guests who have been standing at a hot bus stop forever are left to strap hang.
> 
> And enough of bringing pet dogs under the pretence of being an ESA into the parks too.



I really don't get the large group thing either.  Do DAS users call everyone on the planet to come get "quick access" and the neighborhood shows up?  My entire family is 10.  That's it. So if (big if) we all attempted to go along (never gonna happen) then we'd have 10.  I get it some families are huge, but for the love of it, please split up!!


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## marcyleecorgan

I have no idea why this woman, who seems to be a pretty avid & loyal Disney customer herself, would not just spend the extra money for the VIP tours, where you DO get pretty-close-to FOTL access? If that's what makes her trip magical, then DO IT.  It's not like the pricetag was beyond her if she's a multiple DCL cruiser.


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## Lilsia

marcyleecorgan said:


> I have no idea why this woman, who seems to be a pretty avid & loyal Disney customer herself, would not just spend the extra money for the VIP tours, where you DO get pretty-close-to FOTL access? If that's what makes her trip magical, then DO IT.  It's not like the pricetag was beyond her if she's a multiple DCL cruiser.



It's the mentality of people like that. They truly feel like they are owed things. She is a prime example of someone who uses their child's disability to get attention and whatever else she can get out of it.


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## mamabunny

I don't want anyone here to take this personally, or that I am being confrontational, and I promise I am not picking on anyone.  I'm not, cross my heart.

I know that this woman has not come across well *at all* in the court records; and yes, I did read the entire 51 pages.

But... What if she is "that Mom" (and all of us with special needs/differently abled kids know one of these moms) who is so wrapped up in advocating for her kid that she can't see the forest for the trees?

Her passion for autistic kids is evident in her volunteer work; what we don't know is how she is (really) perceived in her local community of families.  If you take her reported volunteer experience strictly at face value, she's not afraid to jump in and work on behalf of autistic folks, and I bet we can all agree that we need to see more volunteers and advocates (who can work in a reasonable fashion).

I've done a *lot* of volunteer work over the years, and I know from experience that there is often someone who is just so extremely passionate about their place and participation in the community.  It can appear to others, especially outsiders, that the parent is either seeking some personal validation, or that they are simply trying to get everything they can for their kid and/or family, when often it's literally just misplaced passion and zeal. 

I always try to assume positive intent, and in this case, I think it could be possible that we have a mom who has not actually stepped back and objectively evaluated her (now adult) son in some time.  I believe that she still thinks of him and his abilities as he was when he was younger; my takeaway from reading is that he has progressed more, and is more able to wait and to delay gratification than she may be consciously aware of.  She can't see the forest (his progress) for the trees (her lack of objectivity when it comes to her child).

It's hard as the parent of *any* child to be objective; it's our job to love our children unconditionally, and to get them to adulthood where hopefully they can live independent, fulfilling lives to the fullest extent they are able.  Let's try to grant a *little* grace, and hope and pray for her everyone's sake that her intentions - and her subsequent legal action - were simply misplaced love and passion.


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## gopher101

All I will say is this. I do understand where she is coming from, but it does not seem like she is willing to help herself in this situation. My sister has downs and cannot wait in a regular line or do the park for more than 4/5 hours a day. DAS is a god send. She does have mini meltdowns were she gets angry and shuts downs if she has to wait for too long. She can go to the bathroom, grab a snack, look around a shop while she waits. I plan fast passes for the must do's for her and/or popular rides. I think you can always try your best when you plan ahead to help stop the meltdowns before they begin (my sister only- not speaking for ANYONE else). It just seems to me the mom did not try to plan ahead, which is not Disney's fault. They found a way to make it as equal as possible for everyone with DAS.


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## DisneyOma

mamabunny said:


> I always try to assume positive intent, and in this case, I think it could be possible that we have a mom who has not actually stepped back and objectively evaluated her (now adult) son in some time.  I believe that she still thinks of him and his abilities as he was when he was younger; my takeaway from reading is that he has progressed more, and is more able to wait and to delay gratification than she may be consciously aware of.  She can't see the forest (his progress) for the trees (her lack of objectivity when it comes to her child).
> 
> It's hard as the parent of *any* child to be objective; it's our job to love our children unconditionally, and to get them to adulthood where hopefully they can live independent, fulfilling lives to the fullest extent they are able.  Let's try to grant a *little* grace, and hope and pray for her everyone's sake that her intentions - and her subsequent legal action - were simply misplaced love and passion.



Well, hopefully this is the smack on the side of the head she needs to get her brain in focus and really see her son. My bet is she'll take an even more passionate stand though, and continue to keep him hobbled to her. My bet is she is afraid to let him be independent because then he won't need her. That comes from decades of seeing that happen at the school I work at. It's really sad to see a kid with great potential be denied by a fearful, zealous parent.


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## Boopuff

I have worked with "special" kids in the past.  It's amazing how many parents have mis-guided ideas about their own child.  Many parents are "shocked" that we ask parents to stand back and let the child put his coat/backpack away.  Many are stunned that their kids can independently do it! I think this mom just needs to step back and really look at her son and see him for the "man" he is.  She may be afraid to "let go".  Sometimes the parent needs to be needed and once they realize the child has grown and has achieved so much, they feel mis-placed.  Hopefully she will step back.


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## SueM in MN

Update on this lawsuit posted on the DIS Unplugged Forum
Oral arguments on DAS appeal


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## Tiggerish

SueM in MN said:


> Update on this lawsuit posted on the DIS Unplugged Forum
> Oral arguments on DAS appeal


Thank you for the link.  It has been interesting following this case.


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## OurBigTrip

I just listened to the arguments, and plaintiff's attorney sounds just as bad as his briefs read...very amateurish.


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