# School now banning all "out of term" holiday leave



## fairytale

HIya All.

As some of you may know every October my family and I travel to WDW for three deperately looked forward to, weeks in Florida.

As a rule we travel the two weeks prior to the Half Term, returning in time for the children to commence the first day of the new term. This 10 day period was always authorised without any problem by the schools head teacher.

However, all of us in the area in which I live, so not just my childrens school, have recently received letters from the local authority advising us that not one day leave will now be authorised by the head Teacher unless its for a "unavoidable circumstances" ie funerals etc. 

I am therefore wondering if any of you guys have this policy in place where you live and have regardless taken your children out of school. If so what were the consequencies if any?, did you still write to the school advsing of them of the holiday leave?

I feel I must point out that my children are only young been DS8, DS7, DS4 and DD3. Between ourselves we have already made the decision that once our eldest has started Senior school we will then stick to School Holidays, but was really looking forward to have a little flexibilty before then.

I think I fear been met at immigration upon our return by the Police and led away to face a week in prision as punishment


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## Lizzy Lemon

I feel for you I really do.  Fortunately mine are in the last couple of years at school now, taken them out on a couple of occasions with no problem.  Its not cut and dried that everyone can take term time holidays, both DH and I have real problems getting school holidays off.  I have to put in for mine a year in advance to stand a chance while he has to wait until after Christmas every year to have his authorised.  If he can't match mine we don't have a break.  Luckily its worked out reasonably well up until this year.  We have got a 4 day break at Easter and two weeks in the summer holiday and that's it till next year.


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## Grumpy McScrooge

We are taking our oldest child out of school 2 weeks prior to our half term, after consulting a few teachers I know, they said it is not a problem. They don't advise you to take your child out of school but can't stop you from doing so. The worst that could happen is the child gets an unauthorised absence.......more than worth it!!!


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## Young Pooh

Our local authority started this last September. I had to take DD(5) out for 3 days and had to fill in a form which was returned stating she would be marked down as unauthorised absence - to be honest I am not too bothered about this at her age.

The thing that annoyed me though was that the LEA sent me a letter a couple of months later saying that if I did it again they would charge me £100 (reduced to £50 if I paid within 7 days!). This really annoys me as I now work in a school and we have children who are constantly absent for no reason but the LEA doesn't seem to take any action - only with those who request the time off.


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## tennisfan

Grumpy McScrooge said:


> We are taking our oldest child out of school 2 weeks prior to our half term, after consulting a few teachers I know, they said it is not a problem. They don't advise you to take your child out of school but can't stop you from doing so. *The worst that could happen is the child gets an unauthorised absence.......more than worth* it!!!



Not necessary, in England the LEA can fine the parents & worse case scenario take them to court


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## jtlover

I would argue that it is an educational holiday and a child that is young, it is educating them with fun.

Anyway a child could be sick for several days so that would be no different.  

My daughter is now doing her A levels so that is an important time, not when a child is around 5

What also makes me really cross is when the teachers have teacher training and we cant complain about that taking place during the school term.


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## 2Tiggies

Young Pooh said:


> Our local authority started this last September. I had to take DD(5) out for 3 days and had to fill in a form which was returned stating she would be marked down as unauthorised absence - to be honest I am not too bothered about this at her age.



We have the same.  My daughter has only ever missed 2 days (with a doctors letter) in four years.  Last year I went through similar and the letter I got was more than just snippy.  They said it was unauthorised.  



> The thing that annoyed me though was that the LEA sent me a letter a couple of months later saying that if I did it again they would charge me £100 (reduced to £50 if I paid within 7 days!). This really annoys me as I now work in a school and we have children who are constantly absent for no reason but the LEA doesn't seem to take any action - only with those who request the time off.



My sentiments exactly and on those grounds, after some persistence, they actually authorised it.  

Ask the school for a copy of the full terms of this policy.  They are obligated to have them available.  I say this as last Monday I had to go into the school and waiting outside the office I found a leaflet about absences and started reading.  This is specifically DD's school, but grounds where absence for family holiday in term time will be authorised actually included economy, low income families and a whole list of other things that many people could apply to their situation.  As a single parent I will be cashing in on at least one of those - coupled with the fact that there are times of the year where, although my employer won't stop me, are unsuitable for me to be off.  It is a small firm and one person off has a significant impact on the others there (especially my boss  as I discovered last year when they were so happy to see me on my return from WDW - you would have thought I had reported for duty bearing winning lottery tix to share   What I am saying is that legislation always has loopholes.  If you need to use one, you sometimes need to delve a little deeper to find it.


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## jen_uk

jtlover said:


> IWhat also makes me really cross is when the teachers have teacher training and we cant complain about that taking place during the school term.



Trust me us teachers hate teacher training days just as much as you!!


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## 2Tiggies

jtlover said:


> I would argue that it is an educational holiday and a child that is young, it is educating them with fun.



Quite!



> Anyway a child could be sick for several days so that would be no different.



Exactly!



> What also makes me really cross is when the teachers have teacher training and we cant complain about that taking place during the school term.



Oh yes.  But we have to foot the bill for additional child care since other sectors of employment don't have this - in addition to ludicrous amounts of holidays over the course of the year.


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## 2Tiggies

jen_uk said:


> Trust me us teachers hate teacher training days just as much as you!!



Just to be clear, it's not the teachers who are the problem - it's the system.


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## DISWolves

My daughter is in year 6. I did take her out once, for the last 2 weeks of term in July when she was in year 1. Each year since then, I have bit the bullet and got ripped off   by going to Florida in the main holidays. It does annoy me when I constantly hear the same names of teachers at my daughters school, who are away regularly for 1 or 2 days on sick leave. Because of this ,a classroom assistant takes over, disrupting the learning flow. Where do you draw the line of fairness? 
As said in a previous post, the holiday can also be a good learning experience for the children


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## Cyrano

We took the kids out of school on the week before the start of summer term and got a letter of unauthorised absence from the school on behalf of the Local Authority. To be honest I did not ask for authorised absence, so did not loose any sleep over the letter. It was only an extra sheet to add to the recycle pile 

 I agree with the comment about in-service days that are often announced with little warning and another impact on working parents juggling the balls.

With LEA fining parents for absence I wonder if parents will be able to reciprociate when teacher placements are not filled and other teachers have to provide baby-sitting service, rather than children getting taught properly


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## Andrea26

We have booked to go next May which means DS who will then be in Yr5 will miss the last week of term before the Whitsun break.  This week has always been Art week where the curriculum is dropped.  The headmaster has issued  letters saying he won't be authourising holidays in term time unless it's exceptional circumstances, but we are still going! My husband has set holidays which are 2 weeks Whitsun and  last week July/first week August.  We don't want to go in July due to the heat and more chance of rain.  Taking our DS out in Yr5 is the only year we can do this holiday as in Yr6 he will have SATS and then he will be in secondary school.  We have never taken DS out of school before and are willing to pay the £100 fine for our much longed for holiday of a lifetime! My DS has always had excellent attendance and i will be writing all the above points in the letter to the school.


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## Andrea26

DISWolves said:


> . It does annoy me when I constantly hear the same names of teachers at my daughters school, who are away regularly for 1 or 2 days on sick leave. Because of this ,a classroom assistant takes over, disrupting the learning flow. Where do you draw the line of fairness?
> 
> One of my DS teachers had 2 weeks off to get married!, perhaps i should mention that in my holiday request letter


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## scojos

as a teacher i have 2 heads on this one 
yeah take the last week before a holiday off, litlle work is done in december or july but be there when they come back-sept is v important!
2ndary school has down times too,use them
im stuck taking my kids in school times and would argue that costs shouldnt be the massive increase not far
be sensible, but dont ask teachers to provide work, i refuse, if you choose to take your kids on holiday for the last week , thats fine but dont expect me to do extra prep and marking so you can save money.
i would expect you to put yourself out for me 
tracy


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## luke

I'm with you totally on that Tracey


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## 2Tiggies

Andrea26 said:


> My husband has set holidays which are 2 weeks Whitsun and  last week July/first week August.



Our local authority has that particular issue listed as an "acceptable exceptional circumstance"  You may want to check.  If you can have it authorised, all the better. 



scojos said:


> but dont ask teachers to provide work, i refuse, if you choose to take your kids on holiday for the last week , thats fine but dont expect me to do extra prep and marking so you can save money.
> i would expect you to put yourself out for me
> tracy



I do agree that this is fair.  However as every treacher has his / her own methods and this again varies depending on the level / year they are teaching, I will offer as I did last year to.  The teacher said there was very little being done in the week DD was going to miss and I told her if it was easier for her, I would  be quite happy to copy the homework set out from a classmate's homework diary and ensure this was done on the return.  The teacher was great about it.  When I came back she had simply put the worksheets/books aside for DD and I didn't expect her to mark it as it was up to me to check it. 

But again, the problem is not the staff, but the system.  Teachers have no choice but to follow the guidelines whether they agree or not.  Too many people lash out at the wrong person.  That is like yelling at the waitress because you don't like the flavour on your steak.   So I will work with the staff quite happily, but if I choose to go at a certain time of the year for whatever reason and it is during term time I know that I have done it considering whether it would be detrimental to my child.


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## the ringmaster

Look at this from the other point of view.

You have a class of 20 kids, every week they cover one item of math. week 1 they cover the 2x table. that week  child1 is off on holiday. So 19 children learn the 2x table. 

The following week they cover the 4x table. child2 & child3 are off. So 17 children are learning the 4x table and the teacher is teaching child1 the 2x & 4x tables at the same time. 

week 3 and they are on the 3x table. Child2 is still on holiday and is joined by child4. There are now 16 children who are on track with learning the 3x table, child1 is trying to catch up and is coving the last half of the 4x table and the 3x table. child3 is trying to learn the 4x table despite having had a break from the 2x table and thus is finding it harder. Child2 is learning the 2x, 3x & 4x table at one. The teacher is thus teaching 4 different classes.

every week the situation gets worse with different students missing different parts. And this is in every subject not just math.

The teacher is only human and because he cannot split themselves 15 ways the students who went to school every week are falling behind where they would be if the entire class had remained in school, due to having to keep going over the same areas.



Now do you see why for your childs benefit and the benefit of the teacher and the rest of the class you should take your holiday in one of the many holiday periods in the school year.


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## Shazzie B

Schools around here are all changing their policy too. They use to 'authorise' holiday - with the usual letter advising against it etc. 

Spoken to our Headmaster-he's under no illusion that most people will still take kids out whether authorised or not. He's a common sense sort of guy and as long as you are sensible i.e. not missing start of term, tagging onto school holiday etc. he's always been Ok-we've only ever taken ours out for a maximum of a week, fortunately they miss very little school due to ill health -probably max of 2-3 days a year (some years none).

I get the impression it's more about Ofsted reports etc.


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## sandshal

We had exactly the same thing in 2008 ......... went for just under 3 weeks either side of Oct holiday.  Both my husband and I received seperate official letters from the LEA informing us that if our son took even 1 day off between then and the 6th December we'd be fined x amount of money.  

Would point out that this was the only time he'd taken off in the school year.  Thankfully he wasnt sick between the holiday and the deadline so everything was fine.


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## tinks_1989

we dont have children yet! But I'm sorry I do agree with not taking children out of school! When we do have children we won't be taking them out of school!

At all ages I think it is important I think every year of schooling is important it's not just about education its their friendships and personalities that grow when they are at school!


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## Soprano

tinks_1989 said:


> we dont have children yet! But I'm sorry I do agree with not taking children out of school! When we do have children we won't be taking them out of school!
> 
> At all ages I think it is important I think every year of schooling is important it's not just about education its their friendships and personalities that grow when they are at school!



What do you think would happen to the children should they miss 10 days in a year due to a family holiday? Obviously, not kids who have exams on upcoming. But would their education suffer? Would friendships be damaged? Would their personalities alter in a negative way? I'm not having a go, I'm honestly interested and just remarking on examples you used.


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## mark&sue

a few year's ago we bought a new build property in Spain and had to go over to sign the completion paper work etc but was at the mercy of the builder when it finished.   In the end we had to take Kirsy out of school for a few days as the property completed in the middle of term.  I was too worried to ask for permission in case they said no so had to say she was sick. 

so maybe this is the best way to do it if you want to avoid a fine.  Good luck everyone.  


susan


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## Sweet Pea UK

I hear what everybody is saying and in an ideal world it would be great if we could all take our children away in school holidays and not be ripped off by holiday companies.  However, we run a family business in a seaside town - we could not possibly be away in school holidays.  Is the answer that my daughter doesn't get to have a holiday?

I have managed to swing it with my Dad that I can go the last week in August going into September so it is going to mean my daughter misses the first week of school.  She is age 9 and from experience the first week has been settling into their new classroom etc etc.  It is not a new school for her so I am hoping she will settle into her new class just fine when we return with hopefully some excellent life experiences she will take with her for the rest of her life.  Difficult one!


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## disney_princess_85

I'm sorry guys, I agree that children shouldn't be taken out of school for holidays. They have so many weeks off throughout the year, you don't have to choose to go in the height of summer when it's most expensive.


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## tinks_1989

Soprano said:


> What do you think would happen to the children should they miss 10 days in a year due to a family holiday? Obviously, not kids who have exams on upcoming. But would their education suffer? Would friendships be damaged? Would their personalities alter in a negative way? I'm not having a go, I'm honestly interested and just remarking on examples you used.



I don't exactly know how to word this 

A colleague of mine has a four year old they aren't aloud to be taken out of school in school time our job we aren't aloud take time off during school holidays he went explained he would like to take his daughter out of school only for 4 days and it was unauthorised and was threatened with a fine but they explained to them that may feel that they have missed out on some thing with their friends birthday parties school trips school plays etc and sounds silly but isolated by some friends leading to them feeling left out 

I know it doesn't seem like a big deal but I know of children that are shy and being left out of groups of friend's made them fall back on school work leading to them not wanting them to go in more 

I know this isn't going to happen to every child that misses a few days off and may be doesn't seem like a big deal to you but it made me think twice I always thought years where they don't have exam etc aren't as important

I know what you are all saying it can be an educational holiday they can learn from it 
but they cant say ok so children going to florida can have time off but parents that cant afford or dont enjoy it cant take their kids to spain for example


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## fairytale

Thank you to all who have posted their comments so far, its good to hear all sides which is why I love the Dis-Board so much 

To a certain degree the poster whom expressed concerns on how a child would feel upon their return to school after been absent during school term, I do see your point here. Personally I am lucky to have extermely confident children (sometimes too confident) and therefore have never experienced any of them having difficulties returning, if I'm honest the last time our children returned to school from their "authorised" leave, they didnt return till lunchtime and was greeted by all their friends stood at the gates waiting to jump on them upon their return which was lovely to see

Like I previously stated, when our children are in senior school, then the decision has already been made that we will "have" for educational reasons to stick to School Holidays, however, we have a few family members who live in Austria and Switzerland and their children have only just started school and they are my eldest sons age. The strange thing is, having spoken to a number of parents and teachers in these countries, by the age of 12/13 they are working at the same level to our children, although in their opinion they think they excel us in the UK as they see it as their children are ready and more capable to learn from 7/8. It brings back the age long debate of whether or not our UK children start school too early regardless. Our youngest DS4 has already been in full time education since September. We have no optional intakes like in some countys, its very much then or never. He was 4 and 3 weeks when he started, and in my eyes needed his Mummy more than he needed to learn how to read and write, he loves it now mind 

Out of interest, has anyone ever received a court summons or just fines ?


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## scojos

our lea takes massive steps before issuing fines, i have a girl in my tutor group who has an attendance of 61% since september, which means she attends only 3 days a week, every week.
no fine has been issued, EWO and truancy police, but no fines, no threats etc....)
JFI
tracy


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## wayneg

Every child is different, some are off ill a lot, others never have a day off, some can easily catch up some can't, some would learn more from travel than sat in a classroom, others will just sit on a beach.

We took Matt out for 2 week every Oct all thru Junior school and 1st year at High school, his travels have changed him from a shy 5 year old to a very confident 15 year old, head boy of his school and aiming for 15 GCSE's A-C grade(already passed 6 early, 5 As & 1 C) 
I believe we were 110% right to take him out and see the world but I would never say its right(or wrong) for another child, they are all individuals with different needs. It has to be a decision between the parents and the school, not a blanket ban.

We were never cautioned, infact his headmistress at Junior school saw the benefits he was getting from our trips and told us off the record she would do exactly the same in our position.


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## T16GEM

I'm sorry that you have had this news from the school, 

My DD started nursery in September and up until the Christmas holiday took one morning out sick due to vomitting bug.  We were authorised for 10 days of holiday during January, and the last 5 days were unauthorised. However, the school was actually closed for 4 out of the 5 unauthorised days due to the snow, laughably I still got a letter from the head mistress regarding her attendance during January!  To say I was livid would have been an understatement. 

There are children at my DD's nursery who are regularly off sick, just last week I saw a parent being turned away with her DD because she had bought her to school when she had thrown up on the morning - this is totally against the rules, not to mention cruel for her DD and the other kids at nursery.  As she was walking back up the road I heard her saying to the woman she was walking with that she had to go to work that morning and how would she go now with her DD at home - glorified baby sitting?  

I was worried about how DD would get on when she went back to nursery after being away from her friends for so long, but on her first morning back her 3 little friends were waiting for her and there was a huge group hug! I was so pleased that it was one thing less to worry about! 

We will be taking both of our kids out of school for our annual WDW holiday, they learn so much, especially at Epcot and Sea World.  Until I notice a detrimental effect on their education, I guess we will keep on getting "the letter" once a year!


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## Kath2003

I'm a teacher and the school refused to let me have two weeks off mid-term so that I could save hundreds on my holiday 



As if I would ask - I love my job, but the sacrifice is that we HAVE to vacation in the school holidays and pay the premiums. Not exactly much of a sacrifice for having such an awesome career 

I hope either way it works out for those who are trying to take their children during term time - obviously I only see the 'educational' perspective but you must do what you feel is best.


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## howlongtillsummer?

I teach a very important year and my children will sit exams in autumn to determine their eligibility for their chosen secondary school.

If one of them goes away I am very worried about them!! I don't want parents coming back and blaming me... so I must admit I will supply (and mark) work if requested!! Although I wish I had the guts not to!!

But for younger children I wouldn't worry so much - and I would probably remove my own DD if I could.


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## Pegasus928

We have never had any qualms about taking our children out of school regardless of age. One holiday we had booked - which was based around my shifts at work - was over the time that DS was due to take his sats. The stress he was under leading up to them was immense (DS has aspergers and ADHD) and to be honest I thought that removing him from that environment was the right thing to do at that time. I have still yet to hear a decent argument for the sats tests to the effect that they actually benefit the children. We have friends who are teachers, and have spoken to our childrens teachers about this issue, and all have said how much they dislike them and that they prove nothing.
The way I see the whole issue of taking them out is that it is very easy for a child to miss 10 days a year by just being ill, school shut due to snow (thats a joke - none of the other businesses that are in the same area of the school shut so why the school needed to I don't know), teacher training days and the whole week before they break up when they do next to nothing. So as a result I won't be made to feel guilty, nor held to ransom by the LEA just because I happen to know what is best for my child. (and relax)


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## T16GEM

Pegasus928 said:


> I have still yet to hear a decent argument for the sats tests to the effect that they actually benefit the children. We have friends who are teachers, and have spoken to our childrens teachers about this issue, and all have said how much they dislike them and that they prove nothing.



I heard a teacher at DD's nursery saying just last week that the Sats are more to test the teachers than the children.


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## scoobydooby

I don't think taking children out of school is a great idea. I have sympathy with the poster who explained the impact upon the whole class accounting for a range of missing children over time. However, I have taken both of mine out on the last day of term twice for Disney holidays so they get enough time to recover for the new term. I objected to my DS's teacher suggesting it was inappropriate given that particular day was toy day....!  Actually, I object to toy day.


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## disney13

Kath2003 said:


> I'm a teacher and the school refused to let me have two weeks off mid-term so that I could save hundreds on my holiday
> 
> 
> 
> As if I would ask - I love my job, but the sacrifice is that we HAVE to vacation in the school holidays and pay the premiums. Not exactly much of a sacrifice for having such an awesome career
> 
> I hope either way it works out for those who are trying to take their children during term time - obviously I only see the 'educational' perspective but you must do what you feel is best.



Great thread!

I do agree with Kath on this.   How would parents feel if teachers took time off to save themselves money when taking their holidays.   One rule for all I say!!


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## disney_princess_85

Kath2003 said:


> I'm a teacher and the school refused to let me have two weeks off mid-term so that I could save hundreds on my holiday



Exactly. 

I do have sympathy with parents because I'm aware that the prices are astronomical in the summer. However, if it's too expensive to go in the summer, maybe try another time of year or go somewhere other than WDW. There are plenty of interesting and educational places in the world that would benefit children.


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## Cyrano

disney13 said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I do agree with Kath on this.   How would parents feel if teachers took time off to save themselves money when taking their holidays.   One rule for all I say!!



I know a teacher who does this and I do not think any less of them


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## Kath2003

Cyrano said:


> I know a teacher who does this and I do not think any less of them





Seriously?

Teachers get a LOT of holiday - that is one of the perks of the job (and what keeps us going when we're still marking books at 10pm ) but the _compromise_ is that you don't get to choose your holiday. We work 195 days a year compared to the average 230  - that's *thirteen* weeks holiday (kids get 14! ) so I'm not about to complain if I have to pay a bit extra to go during the school holidays (and my partner - who chose _not_ to work in education - also has to pay extra, despite being able to jet off whenever he feels like it). 

I can't even imagine suggesting to my school that they let us take time off during the term time  If we are not there, who teaches the students? Illness is one thing - it's unavoidable - but supply teachers are _expensive_ (and rightly so - they are professionals just like us). The (hypothetical) bill I'd get from the school to cover my absence would FAR outweigh any benefits I'd get by jetting off to Orlando in term time  Plus, I do genuinely care about my students' progress and continuity of teaching counts a lot toward that - and I'm sure parents would be simply delighted if their child's teacher went off to WDW in early May to save a few quid - just weeks before their child's GCSE/A Level exams...

I'm happy to set and mark work for absentees for two reasons: firstly, I care about them making good progress, being happy and enjoying their learning; secondly, if I _don't_ set work, they've missed content. Since I don't teach anything the students don't _need_ to know to progress forward in their education, they have to cover the content: so either I set and mark the work whilst they're on holiday or I have to spend time one-to-one with that child later on going over the work they missed. It's also much easier to explain what we did in one lesson if a student is unwell (rarely are children absent from school for more than 2-3 days in my experience), as we recap the previous lesson at the beginning of the next, than it is to explain weeks of content - all of which is cumulative skills/understanding/knowledge - if a student goes off on holiday. So whilst I don't get upset, offended etc. if my students are absent for holidays (as it's nothing to do with me - that's for the headteacher or the LEA to decide), I _do_ try to plan, set & mark work whilst they're away because _it is in their interest_. I want them to succeed and as a teacher I believe I should do the best I can to help any child achieve their best.

I am childless so I have simply an educational standpoint - the policy setting is not my jurisdiction so I believe that both schools, LEAs and parents must do what they feel is best for the children in their care. If they believe not allowing holiday is the best thing to do for their children, I don't believe they take that decision lightly.


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## 2Tiggies

Kath2003 said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Teachers get a LOT of holiday - that is one of the perks of the job (and what keeps us going when we're still marking books at 10pm ) but the _compromise_ is that you don't get to choose your holiday. We work 195 days a year compared to the average 230  - that's *thirteen* weeks holiday (kids get 14! ) so I'm not about to complain if I have to pay a bit extra to go during the school holidays (and my partner - who chose _not_ to work in education - also has to pay extra, despite being able to jet off whenever he feels like it).
> 
> I can't even imagine suggesting to my school that they let us take time off during the term time  If we are not there, who teaches the students? Illness is one thing - it's unavoidable - but supply teachers are _expensive_ (and rightly so - they are professionals just like us). The (hypothetical) bill I'd get from the school to cover my absence would FAR outweigh any benefits I'd get by jetting off to Orlando in term time  Plus, I do genuinely care about my students' progress and continuity of teaching counts a lot toward that - and I'm sure parents would be simply delighted if their child's teacher went off to WDW in early May to save a few quid - just weeks before their child's GCSE/A Level exams...
> 
> I'm happy to set and mark work for absentees for two reasons: firstly, I care about them making good progress, being happy and enjoying their learning; secondly, if I _don't_ set work, they've missed content. Since I don't teach anything the students don't _need_ to know to progress forward in their education, they have to cover the content: so either I set and mark the work whilst they're on holiday or I have to spend time one-to-one with that child later on going over the work they missed. It's also much easier to explain what we did in one lesson if a student is unwell (rarely are children absent from school for more than 2-3 days in my experience), as we recap the previous lesson at the beginning of the next, than it is to explain weeks of content - all of which is cumulative skills/understanding/knowledge - if a student goes off on holiday. So whilst I don't get upset, offended etc. if my students are absent for holidays (as it's nothing to do with me - that's for the headteacher or the LEA to decide), I _do_ try to plan, set & mark work whilst they're away because _it is in their interest_. I want them to succeed and as a teacher I believe I should do the best I can to help any child achieve their best.
> 
> I am childless so I have simply an educational standpoint - the policy setting is not my jurisdiction so I believe that both schools, LEAs and parents must do what they feel is best for the children in their care. If they believe not allowing holiday is the best thing to do for their children, I don't believe they take that decision lightly.



WOW! I bet there are a whole lot of parents wishing you were teaching at their kids' school!!


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## Cyrano

2Tiggies said:


> WOW! I bet there are a whole lot of parents wishing you were teaching at their kids' school!!



I was thinking that too. There are lots of lovely teachers who still care for our children who are in their charge


----------



## Kath2003

2Tiggies said:


> WOW! I bet there are a whole lot of parents wishing you were teaching at their kids' school!!



I'm not perfect. If a student tells me the day before that they're going on holiday, I can't pull resources out of thin air so sometimes they have to catch up when they get back. I also can't guarantee that their work will be marked instantly when they get back - they'll get put into my 'random pieces of work' pile which gets sorted through as soon as I have the chance. But more importantly, if your child isn't in my lesson then they don't get the full picture and *critically* they don't get all the fun activities I plan for them.  They may learn from reading a worksheet rather than playing a game, watching a video clip, singing a song, listening to me babble at them etc. 
The teaching ethos is that we allow every child to achieve their best, so staff have to do _the best they can_ to ensure that. None of us are perfect, but I know we all try. We work hard and are well reimbursed with 13 weeks holiday as a result 

In an ideal world, we'd have worksheets already made up for every lesson so that any child who was absent for any reason could grab the missing work and carry it out - but that's a MASSIVE project (plus lessons change: you can't move on if the students haven't grasped what you taught last lesson). Even with that though, there's not the opportunity for discussion, for questions, to 'not understand' and have it explained a different way etc.


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## Scrap_Vamp

I'm also a teacher with no kids, but I am in secondary.  I really believe that there isn't a major issue if parents pull kids out of school when they are younger, as long as they are aware of their own child's ability to catch up, the impact it might have on them, and being careful of avoiding times in the term when it might be important for the child to be there.

As children get older, though, it is more important for them to keep their attendance up.  I teach Drama and in Year 10 we had a student who was taken out for the first three weeks after Christmas, making rehearsals difficult for everyone else in the group.  The HOD spoke with them and there was a verbal agreement that they would not do this again.  Fast forward to Year 11 and they took the child out for two weeks right after Christmas again, even though the group had a performance due in February!

This is when I get frustrated - if your child opts to take a subject such as Drama, where they will regularly be working in groups, then you need to be aware that your decision doesn't only affect your own child.  By the same token, it is impossible to set holiday or catch up work when a child is meant to be rehearsing for a performance!


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## PChef

We took our kids out for 1 week in Feb 2007 when they were 8 and 5, and are planning to take them out for 6 days in October this year. Eldest DS is now 12 and will be in yr 8 in October so I don't think we will be taking him out in term time again in the future. Youngest DS has perfect attendance, eldest has had a few days off for illness, 2 this academic year, so they really don't miss a lot of school.

I really don't think this is a problem, academically or socially to my children. In fact we live in a well-to-do area and there are often kids jetting of to go skiing/Dubia/Tunisia this time of year, but the schools are near the top of the league tables and get excellent Ofsted reports. So I don't think it is a major problem to the schools either.


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## Zeebs

Cullen will start school in the September coming, I already plan to take him out towards the end of September for at least 3 days.

Why because my parents are visiting from New Zealand which will be the 3rd time they have seen each other.  To me at 4.5 there are more important things than school, one of those is to spend time with his Grandparents.

"Most" parents are interested in their child's education and will play an active part in it.  

Plus I do pretty well when I watch "are you smarter than a 10 year old" so I should be good to step in until at least 10 with any extra stuff they need to know 

To the person who suggested that you don't have to go to Disney, this is true, but the prices of EVERY holiday go up during school holiday times.

Kirsten


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## scojos

firstly can i say how interesting this debate is and how it shocks me how many teachers there on the dis- anyone would think we hadnt grown up yet
i agree with scramp vamp, i teach DT in 2ndary school, loads of "practical" lessons, not work that can be caught up on worksheets although with effort from parents- skills could be learnt at home (in the kitchen or diy ing with dad)
i agree about the whole kids have days off sick and kids learn more stuff on hols too argument, depending on when you take your kid out and what they are doing whilst away.
i teach in a very mixed ethnic origin school and about 200 /1500 are off next week for trips to india, pakistan, family wherever.
i think kids learn more about there home culture doing this, and unless they are in year 11 they are not missing massive amounts of work, trips are pre planned, staff informed and some staff provide work (although the majority do not)...
I care greatly about my students, i dont think any teacher could say honestly that they dont, i work hard to ensure my lessons are fun and informative, that all students can achieve (g and t and sen) but i stand by the fact that it is unfair to expect me to prepare work for kids going away.
this is just my honest opinnion and i totally respect staff who provide "home" work.
(we do this if there is a death in the family/broken leg etc, but as a dept we dont for hols...)
tracy


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## tinks_1989

Zeebs said:


> To the person who suggested that you don't have to go to Disney, this is true, but the prices of EVERY holiday go up during school holiday times.
> 
> Kirsten



I didnt suggest it with any thing to do with price!!!

I suggested that schools cant say to one family you can take your child out of school because you are going to Disney which can be educational 

and say no to another family who cant afford Disney ANY time of the year that they cant take the children out of school to sit on a beach some where 

I am obviously the minority of this boards as I don't have children 

I'm not writ writing ting on here to change your opinions just to voice my own


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## grahamgallagher

Well it sounds as though the LEA is a failing LEA and needs all the results it can get, I for one would take (and have) out of school for a holiday.

Only once did the Head "suggest" I didnt and that was during the time they were having SATs, these are only used for setting the standard of the school and do your child no benefit - only the school.

However, I did take them out and nothing was done on our return - I even walked my child into school and asked to see the Head before he began to ensure there were no issues...I think my direct approach worked as it was never mentioned agian to me or my child.


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## Zeebs

tinks_1989 said:


> I didnt suggest it with any thing to do with price!!!
> 
> I suggested that schools cant say to one family you can take your child out of school because you are going to Disney which can be educational
> 
> and say no to another family who cant afford Disney ANY time of the year that they cant take the children out of school to sit on a beach some where
> 
> I am obviously the minority of this boards as I don't have children
> 
> I'm not writ writing ting on here to change your opinions just to voice my own



It wasn't actuallly you I was quoting it was Disney Princess 85 who said that if Disney was too expensive to take the child at another time of the year (I assume still during holidays however) or to go somewhere else as there are plenty of educational things in the world.  The issue is that during school holidays prices are expensive anywhere.  The other issue is that some parents just cannot get time off during school holiday time.  Even if they can afford a holiday if they can't take their children out of school they just can't go.  While I totallly agree education is very very important so is time with your family away from every day life.  Whether that be a trip to Disney or camping somewhere.

We are quite fortunate and will most likely take our holiday during the school holidays however, I have family in New Zealand which requires a longer trip to see family.  We may need to go outside of holiday times for example if we wanted to go to New Zealand for Christmas as you can't just go for one week.

Everyone is allowed their own opinion I have no problems with that at all.

Kirsten


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## wideeyes

I take my DD out of school however I will not take her out at the start of a new school year.  I have done in the past and my DD told me she didn't want to miss the start of the term, she found it difficult to settle in when everyone else was used to the new routine. My DD is quiet and shy and if she doesn't know what she is meant to do she will worry rather than ask the teacher.
She is happy to go later in the school year though however if she said she didn't want to go at all during school time then we wouldn't go.


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## 2Tiggies

Most parents have a good sense as to whether their child is coping.  I am fortunate that my DD does well at school.  I also believe that although they attend school, education starts and ends at home.  I have no problem sitting with her and helping her with catching up and don't expect the teacher to have to do extra work to help her to do so.  There are certain crucial times of every school year when serious consideration needs to be taken as to whether it may be to the child's detriment to take them out.  

If I can go during holiday time, this is my preference.  I don't purposely try and take her out and have only done it once.  However every family has its own circumstances and I will  certainly not judge anyone who does it or is completely opposed to it.  I find parenting my own child enough of a responsibility without worrying about what others should or should not be doing.


----------



## wideeyes

2Tiggies said:


> I find parenting my own child enough of a responsibility without worrying about what others should or should not be doing.



Exactly!


----------



## kristieuk

I really believe there is no right and wrong answer to this, only what is right for the child, and I believe that we are all responsible and caring enough to make the right decision for our own children.

It's disappointing that schools are being pressured to make all such leave unauthorised and send parents on a rollercoaster of guilt. We have our own reasons for travelling during term time, although we do tag on to half term. DD is a better person for her travels and does exceptionally well at school. Were this not the case of course we wouldn't do it, but I believe we do what is best for her and that schools should be allowed to make their own judgements based upon the best interests of the individual child.


----------



## disney_princess_85

Zeebs said:


> It wasn't actuallly you I was quoting it was Disney Princess 85 who said that if Disney was too expensive to take the child at another time of the year (I assume still during holidays however) or to go somewhere else as there are plenty of educational things in the world.  The issue is that during school holidays prices are expensive anywhere.



Yes, all holidays go up in price during the summer holidays, that is a given. However, the cost of holidaying in the UK or in Europe is always going to be cheaper than going to WDW (within reason, of course). My point is, if it's out of your price range in the summer holidays then try somewhere else, or go at another time of year (e.g. the October half term). Is it worth compromising your child's education for the sake of a holiday?

Also, I agree with what others have said about every child being different, i.e. some find it easier to catch up with missed work, etc. However, the point of schools banning out of term holiday leave is to make things fair for everyone: it wouldn't be right if a bright child was constantly allowed time off, while a struggling child had to maintain a 100% attendance record.

From a personal standpoint, I'm trying to go on as many holidays as possible before I have children. When I do have children, I'm aware that I will have to make sacrifices.


----------



## tinks_1989

disney_princess_85 said:


> Also, I agree with what others have said about every child being different, i.e. some find it easier to catch up with missed work, etc. However, the point of schools banning out of term holiday leave is to make things fair for everyone: it wouldn't be right if a bright child was constantly allowed time off, while a struggling child had to maintain a 100% attendance record.
> 
> From a personal standpoint, I'm trying to go on as many holidays as possible before I have children. When I do have children, I'm aware that I will have to make sacrifices.



I couldnt agree more


----------



## tinks_1989

Zeebs said:


> The other issue is that some parents just cannot get time off during school holiday time.  Even if they can afford a holiday if they can't take their children out of school they just can't go.
> 
> Kirsten



My job doesn't agree to having time off with in school holidays we are very busy during these times!

DF isn't aloud holiday in the summer starting may and not finishing till October
then I start getting busy again in November which normally leaves us just October 

Cant afford it in January and February after Christmas

So when we have children we will be very restricted with holiday times 

But i still dont think I will take our kids out of school but who knows my opinion may change when I am desperate for sunshine and can only go by taking them out of school


----------



## 2Tiggies

tinks_1989 said:


> But i still dont think I will take our kids out of school but who knows my opinion may change when I am desperate for sunshine and can only go by taking them out of school



The only problem is that life throws so many curve balls at you and often, once the children come along, all those "I will always" and "I will never" statements go flying out the window because circumstances make it almost impossible to implement them.  I do believe that if you feel strongly about something, you will usually do whatever it takes to ensure that you stick by what you believe, but sometimes the things you feel strongly about shift too over the years.  

I do a lot of things now/dont' do things that I swore otherwise about.  I never expected to be raising DD alone.  I also have to be careful where I go as a single mum alone with a young child - that is also part of my responsibility.  As I mentioned before, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on this topic, but I am enjoying everyone's different points of view.  I think it's great that this thread has remained a discussion and quite civil.  That can only be saying good things about us on the UK board!


----------



## Gonz Of Lancashire

the ringmaster said:


> Now do you see why for your childs benefit and the benefit of the teacher and the rest of the class you should take your holiday in one of the many holiday periods in the school year.



How about my son's year seven French trip which took five days in term time? It was educational because "it will give them experiences in French restaurants and talking to people in French". This trip involved coach travel to an onsite hotel at Disneyland Paris, it didn't go anywhere else. I refused to pay the large amount of money the school wanted for this trip (we have to subsidise the teachers' trip and cover the insurance costs in case one of the school chavs decides to put a claim in for cutting a finger don't forget) but I'm concerned, won't those who took time out to go to Paris be five days behind him in school work or am I allowed to now take him out for five days to allow others to catch up? If it's the latter should I hold him back from the five day "educational" ski trip that means we should, in theory, be able to take two guilt-free weeks in January next year.

By the way, next year's Spanish trip is to sample the food, language and culture of the country.

They're going to going to Fuengirola. 

And I'm not kidding.


----------



## luke

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> By the way, next year's Spanish trip is to sample the food, language and culture of the country.
> 
> They're going to going to Fuengirola.
> 
> And I'm not kidding.



And?
I just recently took some year 13's to Malaga, and am taking some years 7/8/9's to Lloret De Mar in May?  I just don't understand your problem with school trips and how you don't see them as different to simply taking your kid out to go on holiday to WDW.

And as for your comment on 'subsidising the teachers trip' - Do you really think we are getting free holidays out of these trips?


----------



## Zeebs

2Tiggies said:


> The only problem is that life throws so many curve balls at you and often, once the children come along, all those "I will always" and "I will never" statements go flying out the window because circumstances make it almost impossible to implement them.  I do believe that if you feel strongly about something, you will usually do whatever it takes to ensure that you stick by what you believe, but sometimes the things you feel strongly about shift too over the years.
> 
> I do a lot of things now/dont' do things that I swore otherwise about.  I never expected to be raising DD alone.  I also have to be careful where I go as a single mum alone with a young child - that is also part of my responsibility.  As I mentioned before, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on this topic, but I am enjoying everyone's different points of view.  I think it's great that this thread has remained a discussion and quite civil.  That can only be saying good things about us on the UK board!




  I was a much better parent without children 

Kirsten


----------



## Zeebs

luke said:


> And?
> I just recently took some year 13's to Malaga, and am taking some years 7/8/9's to Lloret De Mar in May?  I just don't understand your problem with school trips and how you don't see them as different to simply taking your kid out to go on holiday to WDW.
> 
> And as for your comment on 'subsidising the teachers trip' - Do you really think we are getting free holidays out of these trips?



I think my issue with the school trip he mentioned to France is that really how much about France can you learn at Disneyland Paris????? (I love Disney and had a fab trip there) but come on it isn't really learning all about France is it?

I have no issues with kids taking an educational visit, but while they are working on their Spanish what is happening with their English Maths etc.  It just seems to be a contridiction in terms.  You can take 5 days and go away with the school and miss all your other classes but you can't take 5 days to go away with you family.

Kirsten


----------



## wideeyes

luke said:


> And?
> I just recently took some year 13's to Malaga, and am taking some years 7/8/9's to Lloret De Mar in May?  I just don't understand your problem with school trips and how you don't see them as different to simply taking your kid out to go on holiday to WDW.



aw, I did GCSE Spanish at school and we didn't get any trips to Spain, however those that did French & German got trips, apparently Spain was to expensive.


----------



## 2Tiggies

Zeebs said:


> I was a much better parent without children
> 
> Kirsten



   

That makes two of us then.  I was convinced I was gonna do it better than everyone else.  If you could only see me now ......   I do my utmost to avoid conversations that my raise the terms of any of my pre-child proclamations.


----------



## tttessa

Zeebs said:


> I was a much better parent without children
> 
> Kirsten




oooohhh me too!!  I wasn't EVER going to take them out, or let them go to school with a cold or buy "trendy" school shoes.  This is the  year I break all 3!!!  Hey ho.... do I feel guilty - OH YES....

October half term we are tacking on 6 days. Weather/heat/pollen not cost - have you seen how high flight prices are in October!! 

We are  ultimately responsible for our girls' education.  Schooling is a big part of that and we do not take them out lightly. They are Primary Y3 and 4 and this will be the only year *we *feel comfortable doing it.  (well as comfortable as you can with the guilts...)


----------



## alibeau

Zeebs said:


> I was a much better parent without children
> 
> Kirsten



Love it 

We have taken our girls (6 & 4) out of school twice now and have to admit that I do feel a tad guilty, especially on the occasion when it was for the full (authorised) 10 days but not enough for it to stop me!

The girls' teacher and head were fine about us taking them out of school and did provide extra reading books at my request, so nothing that needed marking as such but just i just wanted them to keep up with things....

We are lucky in that our girls are bright, sociable and rarely off ill and when they returned to school their classmates were hugging them at the school gate as they had been missed   Whilst away on our last trip in Feb we did a number of 'activites' that were out of this world with regard to the girls learning.  Our eldest was amazed at KSC and having recently done a project in school on space, her classmates were thrilled when our DD showed postcards of KSC and answered some of their questions - priceless.  And yes, you could argue that she would gain the same expereince if we went in the school holidays but that was not an option for us as we run our own business.  

If I felt that they were suffering at school from taking them out in term time, I would not even consider it and will also have a re-think as they get older but for now family time trumps everything in my book and whilst the girls continue to do well at school, we will go on holidays whenever we can regardless of whether it is in term time or not 

Each to their own 

Ali


----------



## Gonz Of Lancashire

luke said:


> And?
> I just recently took some year 13's to Malaga, and am taking some years 7/8/9's to Lloret De Mar in May?  I just don't understand your problem with school trips and how you don't see them as different to simply taking your kid out to go on holiday to WDW.
> 
> And as for your comment on 'subsidising the teachers trip' - Do you really think we are getting free holidays out of these trips?



Lloret De Mar/Fuengirola there is no difference, they are more hotbeds of British culture than Spanish and Eurodisney is as French as Officer Crabtree from 'Allo 'Allo. The school feeds these trips as an educational experience when in reality they aren't really, are they? 

If I told the school I was taking my kids to Lloret de Mar for a holiday and it was purely educational they'd laugh me out of the school.


----------



## Gonz Of Lancashire

Zeebs said:


> I think my issue with the school trip he mentioned to France is that really how much about France can you learn at Disneyland Paris????? (I love Disney and had a fab trip there) but come on it isn't really learning all about France is it?
> 
> I have no issues with kids taking an educational visit, but while they are working on their Spanish what is happening with their English Maths etc.  It just seems to be a contridiction in terms.  You can take 5 days and go away with the school and miss all your other classes but you can't take 5 days to go away with you family.
> 
> Kirsten



That's my take on it.


----------



## jen_uk

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> it didn't go anywhere else. I refused to pay the large amount of money the school wanted for this trip (we have to subsidise the teachers' trip and cover the insurance costs in case one of the school chavs decides to put a claim in for cutting a finger don't forget)
> .



Taking kids on trips is not a free holiday for the teachers! You can't relax at all and if something were to go wrong you can guarantee the teachers will get the blame straight away!


----------



## Debwid

I am planning to go next May (fly on 26th) when DD will be in Yr 2. I spoke to the head on Friday to check and she was perfectly happy and understanding. She wasn't concerned at all and said that such holidays are part of learning. I do have to fill in an application form and they are scored. If you are under the threshold it is approved, if not then it is turned down. Schools don't have a choice in this. The reality though is that the fine you get, if one comes your way, is less than what you saved so still worth it - headteachers opinion! I'll just have to hope DD doesn't get ill next year. 

The response would have been different if DD was yr6 as May / June is SATS time under exam conditions. YR2 Sats aren't the same.


----------



## Sweet Pea UK

alibeau said:


> Love it
> 
> We have taken our girls (6 & 4) out of school twice now and have to admit that I do feel a tad guilty, especially on the occasion when it was for the full (authorised) 10 days but not enough for it to stop me!
> 
> The girls' teacher and head were fine about us taking them out of school and did provide extra reading books at my request, so nothing that needed marking as such but just i just wanted them to keep up with things....
> 
> We are lucky in that our girls are bright, sociable and rarely off ill and when they returned to school their classmates were hugging them at the school gate as they had been missed   Whilst away on our last trip in Feb we did a number of 'activites' that were out of this world with regard to the girls learning.  Our eldest was amazed at KSC and having recently done a project in school on space, her classmates were thrilled when our DD showed postcards of KSC and answered some of their questions - priceless.  And yes, you could argue that she would gain the same expereince if we went in the school holidays but that was not an option for us as we run our own business.
> 
> If I felt that they were suffering at school from taking them out in term time, I would not even consider it and will also have a re-think as they get older but for now family time trumps everything in my book and whilst the girls continue to do well at school, we will go on holidays whenever we can regardless of whether it is in term time or not
> 
> Each to their own
> 
> Ali



Well said!  Family time is just as important!


----------



## pandv_2000

Hmmm Ds is currently in Y2 and so far we have taken him out of school twice for 1 day so we could go away for half term.  This year I am pregnant with baby no 2 so the summer is not an option for us (baby is due 22 July).  We are going for 16 nights in October and will be taking DS out of school for 7 days.  I feel really guilty about it but if I don't do it DS won't get a holiday this year.  I normally wouldn't but mainly because the extra I would pay for childcare during the school holidays would offset the cost savings from booking outside if school holidays.


----------



## crazysitch

what about people who have no choice as there holidays and are set and the company wont like you change them  and the school wont let you take your child out of school   :/
i think the best possible solution is to pretend he/she is sick
does anybody have any other solution ​


----------



## 2Tiggies

crazysitch said:


> what about people who have no choice as there holidays and are set and the company wont like you change them  and the school wont let you take your child out of school   :/
> i think the best possible solution is to pretend he/she is sick
> does anybody have any other solution ​



I cant speak for other schools, but ours accept that this is sometimes the case and will actually authorise it if you can provide vouching to back up your reasoning.  I think the schools are a lot more flexible than they get credit for.  Sadly though, there are those who, not necessarily going on holiday, take their kids out/keep them off at will and disrupt learning.  I must admit, I woudl be the first to shout if my child wasn't getting the input she should because the teacher was private tutoring kids whose parents didn't see the importance of being in school every day. 

By the way, I am not a teacher.


----------



## tinks_1989

2Tiggies said:


> The only problem is that life throws so many curve balls at you and often, once the children come along, all those "I will always" and "I will never" statements go flying out the window



I am sure things and my opinions will change I would love to have kids a lot of my friends are older then me (I started work full time when I left school at 15 all of my friends are at least 5 years older and I have matured much quicker then most 20 year old's) they all already have kids makes me very broody  

but I think me and Dave won't be able to afford holiday's after we have kids (that's why we are doing what we want now when we can!)(I'll just have to live the dream through all of your TR's) 

I just don't think taking them out of school will be a problem with us because we just won't be able to afford it!

However I would give up all holidays for a family


----------



## Kath2003

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> I refused to pay the large amount of money the school wanted for this trip (we have to subsidise the teachers' trip and cover the insurance costs in case one of the school chavs decides to put a claim in for cutting a finger don't forget)



I shall remember that I'm get a "subsidised trip" next time I go on a school trip and am responsible for the care and safety of your children. We are paid to work during the hours of the school day (plus planning, marking and assessing outside of this time), not the 24-hours a day school trips demand  with virtual parental responsibility for _your_ child - it is _the_ most stressful thing to do as a teacher and trust me - no one sees it as a subsidised holiday. 

You must do what you feel is best with regard to taking _your_ child out of school for holidays - and the school must do what they think is best for _their_ students - however I do object to it being suggested that teachers are getting a "free ride" on school trips during which we are _constantly_ at work and going above and beyond our job requirements.


----------



## 2Tiggies

tinks_1989 said:


> I am sure things and my opinions will change I would love to have kids a lot of my friends are older then me (I started work full time when I left school at 15 all of my friends are at least 5 years older and I have matured much quicker then most 20 year old's) they all already have kids makes me very broody
> 
> but I think me and Dave won't be able to afford holiday's after we have kids (that's why we are doing what we want now when we can!)(I'll just have to live the dream through all of your TR's)
> 
> I just don't think taking them out of school will be a problem with us because we just won't be able to afford it!



What I should have added is that with the curve balls come good surprises too!  Once you have kids a lot of what you want changes too so things you think you will miss because you like them now, won't necessarily appeal to you in 5 years time.  That is true for the most part for anyone, and not just in relation to having children (or not).  

Kids aren't that expensive initially.  I always said, once I had had the baby and all the initial costs were out of the way, the next few years were not expensive.  So holidays are not out of the question initially.  The biggest expenses were because I wanted to buy nice clothing, etc for her the I liked, not necessarily that she needed.  But they don't eat much and honestly, taking a small child to Disney is not going to make much difference to going as a couple.  Especially in the first three years (when they eat, stay and play free). I think you are right to do what you can now, but all it means is that you will have no regrets; not that you won't have some of the things you do now - it's just constant adjustment and learning to adapt things to suit you!  For now, enjoy it.  For later, new things to look forward to.


----------



## Zeebs

2Tiggies said:


> What I should have added is that with the curve balls come good surprises too!  Once you have kids a lot of what you want changes too so things you think you will miss because you like them now, won't necessarily appeal to you in 5 years time.  That is true for the most part for anyone, and not just in relation to having children (or not).
> 
> Kids aren't that expensive initially.  I always said, once I had had the baby and all the initial costs were out of the way, the next few years were not expensive.  So holidays are not out of the question initially.  The biggest expenses were because I wanted to buy nice clothing, etc for her the I liked, not necessarily that she needed.  But they don't eat much and honestly, taking a small child to Disney is not going to make much difference to going as a couple.  Especially in the first three years (when they eat, stay and play free). I think you are right to do what you can now, but all it means is that you will have no regrets; not that you won't have some of the things you do now - it's just constant adjustment and learning to adapt things to suit you!  For now, enjoy it.  For later, new things to look forward to.



Can I add that what makes kids expensive is the money you fork out to put batteries in EVERY single blasted toy they own.

£180,000 to raise a child apparently from birth to 18.  80% of that is batteries.



Kirsten


----------



## mickeyforpresident

This is such an interesting thread!

I can see both sides of the argument, but I thought it might be worth outlining a few things. Headteacher's can authorise upto 10 days holiday in any school year at their discretion. In my school I authorise this if the child's attendance is satisfactory and the child is making satisfactory progress. This rule only applies to children in Year 1 and above, so the previous posters who have had trouble with Nursery and Reception children shouldn't have - the HT cannot legally enforce this. Unfortuneatly, this is a little but like a postcode lottery depending on how some HT works within their guidelines. As parents, you have a LEGAL responsibility to ensure your child attends school. If a child clocks up 12 unuthorised holidays in a year, the HT can ask the LEA to prosecute you. This starts with a fine (reduced to £50, if paid quickly). No big deal I guess. Failure to pay, or persist the absence can lead you to court. The worst case scenario, although rarely done, is that parents can be prosecuted and could face imprisonment for taking your child out of school without permission. It is technically illegal. 

Parents have to be informed of INSET DAYS at least a year in advance - so they shouldn't just be thrown in; and there should only be 5 in a normal school year. This leaves 175 days for family holidays. 

The PP who's teacher had two weeks off in term time: there is no mechanism for teachers to do this, so the leave would have been without pay. 

Do schools still do toy days? - Not at my school!! Everyday is learning day (there's only 190 in a year, y'know). 

Teaching is hard and it's even more tricky when children are off!

I'm sure that there are advantages to taking children off in term time - but not all children.


----------



## wayneg

Zeebs said:


> £180,000 to raise a child apparently from birth to 18.
> 
> Kirsten



Matt is only 15 and I think I have spent close to that on his 50+ trips abroad before we start with clothes, food...... 
They cost a fortune from being born.


----------



## pandv_2000

2Tiggies said:


> What I should have added is that with the curve balls come good surprises too!  Once you have kids a lot of what you want changes too so things you think you will miss because you like them now, won't necessarily appeal to you in 5 years time.  That is true for the most part for anyone, and not just in relation to having children (or not).
> 
> Kids aren't that expensive initially.  I always said, once I had had the baby and all the initial costs were out of the way, the next few years were not expensive.  So holidays are not out of the question initially.  The biggest expenses were because I wanted to buy nice clothing, etc for her the I liked, not necessarily that she needed.  But they don't eat much and honestly, taking a small child to Disney is not going to make much difference to going as a couple.  Especially in the first three years (when they eat, stay and play free). I think you are right to do what you can now, but all it means is that you will have no regrets; not that you won't have some of the things you do now - it's just constant adjustment and learning to adapt things to suit you!  For now, enjoy it.  For later, new things to look forward to.



It depends if you have family close by.  We don't and if I go back to work full time a nursery place for the baby will be £720 per month.  If I go back part time it's obviously cheaper but then I lose pay.  The real cost of children is childcare.


----------



## Gonz Of Lancashire

Kath2003 said:


> I shall remember that I'm get a "subsidised trip" next time I go on a school trip and am responsible for the care and safety of your children. We are paid to work during the hours of the school day (plus planning, marking and assessing outside of this time), not the 24-hours a day school trips demand  with virtual parental responsibility for _your_ child - it is _the_ most stressful thing to do as a teacher and trust me - no one sees it as a subsidised holiday.



So to clarify, do you or do you not get free/subsidised travel on school trips?


----------



## luke

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> So to clarify, do you or do you not get free/subsidised travel on school trips?



Of course we don't pay for our own travel etc when taking kids on a trip? Do you think we should? As said by myself and someone else earlier, it's not a holiday for us, we're at work! Even more than work in fact, we're 'on' 24/7!!

Sorry to have taken this off topic somewhat anyway 

And as for places like Fuengi and Lloret not being 'proper Spanish culture', obviously not but we're using it as a base to explore Barcelona and Catalonia, as I would imagine Fuengi would be a base to explore Malaga and Andalucia


----------



## wideeyes

mickeyforpresident said:


> Do schools still do toy days? - Not at my school!! Everyday is learning day (there's only 190 in a year, y'know).



My DD school has two toy days a year, before christmas & summer holidays. It is apart of the schools reward system. It is the highlight of my DD school year.


----------



## Cyrano

Zeebs said:


> Can I add that what makes kids expensive is the money you fork out to put batteries in EVERY single blasted toy they own.
> 
> £180,000 to raise a child apparently from birth to 18.  80% of that is batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> Kirsten



X 3 means that I am really worried now


----------



## 2Tiggies

Zeebs said:


> 80% of that is batteries.



Gee, and all this time I though I had to buy good, wholesome food .....


----------



## 2Tiggies

luke said:


> Of course we don't pay for our own travel etc when taking kids on a trip? Do you think we should?



Absolutely not.  Your own family on a holiday is one thing.  But taking care of a whole group of other peoples' children I would expect high level Danger Pay on top of my expenses


----------



## Pegasus928

mickeyforpresident said:


> As parents, you have a LEGAL responsibility to ensure your child attends school.





mickeyforpresident said:


> Failure to pay, or persist the absence can lead you to court. The worst case scenario, although rarely done, is that parents can be prosecuted and could face imprisonment for taking your child out of school without permission. It is technically illegal.


 
I admit that I am no expert but I am pretty sure that this isn't true. 
When we were planning on moving back to the UK after living in the middle east we were struggling to find a school that we were happy to send DS to. 
As a result we looked into home learning and one of the things that I remember reading is that it is not a legal requirement to send your child to school. It is, however, a legal requirement to ensure your child gets an education. How this is carried out is up to you as a parent and you must explain to your LEA how you plan to achieve this, but they are not even allowed to come round to your home and monitor what you have in place.


----------



## luke

I would think he means if your child is enrolled at a school then it's a legal requirement, not that they must by enrolled at a school, if you see what I mean


----------



## the ringmaster

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> So to clarify, do you or do you not get free/subsidised travel on school trips?



No they get paid to do a job which involves travel. The same way that any other tour guide/holiday rep doesn't get free travel whilst they are working they are just working. 

Do you think your kids are so well behaved that the teachers ignore them for 5 days and hang out by themselves?


----------



## scojos

the ringmaster said:


> Do you think your kids are so well behaved that the teachers ignore them for 5 days and hang out by themselves?



actually we rob all their money to pay our bar bill then we ignore them


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

I am just back from four days away with my class. I would not expect to pay for it as I am working round the clock to ensure the health and safety of the children. You cannot even take the time to have a shower without rushing like a mad thing to make sure they are ok. 

The cost of the trip would be substantially less than the cost of my time, which, of course, I would not expect to be paid extra for.

Surprised to read this.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

luke said:


> I would think he means if your child is enrolled at a school then it's a legal requirement, not that they must by enrolled at a school, if you see what I mean



Yeah that's right!

LEA's appoint people to "inspect" parents who electively home educate.


----------



## iluvtot

scojos said:


> actually we rob all their money to pay our bar bill then we ignore them



Lol! Love it!!

Jules x


----------



## Kath2003

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> So to clarify, do you or do you not get free/subsidised travel on school trips?



Of course we do - would you pay for a business trip out of your own pocket? 

We are at work the whole time we are there: it just so happens that our job is caring for and teaching your children who you have entrusted entirely to us! We also take school trips over weekends too - when we are not even paid to be there. We sacrifice evenings with our own family to care for yours. 

If your business said to you: would you like to pay £250 out of your own pocket to spend three nights working 16 hours a day and on-call should anything go wrong in the night (holding someone else's child's hair back as they throw up all night?), would you go?!

Alternatively, would you want to take 10 unrelated 14-year olds for whom you are responsible on a 5-day trip to Spain and pay £400 for the privilege?


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Kath2003 said:


> Of course we do - would you pay for a business trip out of your own pocket?
> 
> We are at work the whole time we are there: it just so happens that our job is caring for and teaching your children who you have entrusted entirely to us! We also take school trips over weekends too - when we are not even paid to be there. We sacrifice evenings with our own family to care for yours.
> 
> If your business said to you: would you like to pay £250 out of your own pocket to spend three nights working 16 hours a day and on-call should anything go wrong in the night (holding someone else's child's hair back as they throw up all night?), would you go?!
> 
> Alternatively, would you want to take 10 unrelated 14-year olds for whom you are responsible on a 5-day trip to Spain and pay £400 for the privilege?



Well said! I feel like it is summer now that I have my residential over. Maybe I should take a fortnight off and take DD out of school!! Just kidding


----------



## luke

The teachers are fighting back


----------



## Pegasus928

mickeyforpresident said:


> Yeah that's right!
> 
> LEA's appoint people to "inspect" parents who electively home educate.


 
Not in our experience they don't   We got left to it and they wouldn't even offer any advice at all on lesson planning etc.  None of the work we did with our DS was checked either 

Mrs Pegasus


----------



## Sazuburns

Pegasus928 said:


> Not in our experience they don't   We got left to it and they wouldn't even offer any advice at all on lesson planning etc.  None of the work we did with our DS was checked either
> 
> Mrs Pegasus



Did you home educate from the beginning or did your son start off in school?  I think if it's the latter the are more likely to check up on you for some reason.


----------



## Cyrano

luke said:


> The teachers are fighting back



It has been a good fight on both sides 

What is great about this thread; even though we are massively off-topic, is that each side has made their points without the need for fighting.

If DIsers made up the total parent and teacher population we would be able to sort out Local Authorities, Unions and Government perfectly 

I recon we could make this the longest should I take my child out of school thread in DIS history


----------



## wayneg

Cyrano said:


> I recon we could make this the longest should I take my child out of school thread in DIS history



My finger is aching, been hovering over the close thread button for almost 4 days. 
Great to have a civil discussion on this subject.


----------



## 2Tiggies

wayneg said:


> My finger is aching, been hovering over the close thread button for almost 4 days.
> Great to have a civil discussion on this subject.



That's what I have been watching for too.  As per one of my previous posts, I think it is great that we can have a civil discussion over a controversial topic.


----------



## Pegasus928

Sazuburns said:


> Did you home educate from the beginning or did your son start off in school? I think if it's the latter the are more likely to check up on you for some reason.


 
He was at secondary school and waiting to find a place at a different one in our area.  Like I said though zero help throughout 

Mrs Pegasus


----------



## scojos

wayneg said:


> My finger is aching, been hovering over the close thread button for almost 4 days.
> Great to have a civil discussion on this subject.


it has been an interesting debate, but i agree, massively off subject.
i have taken residentials but never organised them, day trips are bad enough, 

teachers are fair game, come on, how many of you out there that arent teachers take the mick out of us? 13 weeks paid holidays, finish at 3...that sort of thing?
i ll swap jobs with anyone who can just shut there laptop and start again then next morning.....
we worry about what we say, how we do things, if kids understood and how we are going to deliver lessons the next day, have we finished our marking etc...
it isnt a 8-3 mon to fri job at all, but i love it, and i love the kids, that s why i do it
one of my best memories ever is turning up to the prom of a "horrid" year group and one of the mean girls knocking me off my feet as she ran at me..."thankyou for taking the time to come to my prom" kids know when staff give 110%, 
it makes listening to horrid things (data, child protection, ofsted etc) worth while, because I altered that girls lifeand we all affect our kids...
tracy


----------



## Gonz Of Lancashire

Kath2003 said:


> Of course we do - would you pay for a business trip out of your own pocket?
> 
> We are at work the whole time we are there: it just so happens that our job is caring for and teaching your children who you have entrusted entirely to us! We also take school trips over weekends too - when we are not even paid to be there. We sacrifice evenings with our own family to care for yours.
> 
> If your business said to you: would you like to pay £250 out of your own pocket to spend three nights working 16 hours a day and on-call should anything go wrong in the night (holding someone else's child's hair back as they throw up all night?), would you go?!
> 
> Alternatively, would you want to take 10 unrelated 14-year olds for whom you are responsible on a 5-day trip to Spain and pay £400 for the privilege?



Well, to quote a teacher on this thread "you don't think we get subsidised travel, do you?". I took that as you had to pay your own way, of course you don't pay for work related expenses. 

Interesting that as teachers you seem all to keen to point out how much unpaid work is put in whilst on these trips unyet the 50+ more days paid holidays teachers get a year more than the average person is overlooked.


----------



## luke

Uhoh Wayne, best hover over that close thread button...


----------



## fairytale

luke said:


> Uhoh Wayne, best hover over that close thread button...







I would nt mind I'm the original poster and I still dont think I've got my answer


----------



## Kath2003

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> Interesting that as teachers you seem all to keen to point out how much unpaid work is put in whilst on these trips unyet the 50+ more days paid holidays teachers get a year more than the average person is overlooked.



We are paid to work 39 weeks of the year. We are not contracted to work holidays. It's not like your average contract when you're "given" a certain amount of holiday, it's simply that we aren't contracted to work 13 weeks of the year (the same way as you are probably contracted to only work Monday-Friday). 

The holidays are truly great as a teacher, but we DO work hard (and much of it unpaid - we are not contractually obliged to carry out ANY activities before school, after school, at lunch etc. - so all those extra-curricular clubs, concerts, sporting events etc. are off our own back). I would hate to see what some people's opinion of teachers would degrade further to if it wasn't the norm for teachers to go above and beyond. 

Regardless of this, I have maintained from the beginning that, as a teacher, I only see the educational viewpoint of taking your children out of school, and that both schools and parents must make the decision each feels is best with respect to allowing term-time holiday.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

Cyrano said:


> It has been a good fight on both sides
> 
> What is great about this thread; even though we are massively off-topic, is that each side has made their points without the need for fighting.
> 
> If DIsers made up the total parent and teacher population we would be able to sort out Local Authorities, Unions and Government perfectly
> 
> I recon we could make this the longest should I take my child out of school thread in DIS history



This is a terrific comment!

Maybe the UK DISers should form a new polictical party!


----------



## mickeyforpresident

Please don't shout me down, but teachers are only - technically - paid for 39 weeks a year which is salaried and spread over 12 months! The rest of the holidays - which many of us work through at least some of those days - are again technically - unpaid.


----------



## the ringmaster

Gonz Of Lancashire said:


> Well, to quote a teacher on this thread "you don't think we get subsidised travel, do you?". I took that as you had to pay your own way, of course you don't pay for work related expenses.
> 
> Interesting that as teachers you seem all to keen to point out how much unpaid work is put in whilst on these trips unyet the 50+ more days paid holidays teachers get a year more than the average person is overlooked.



Teachers are paid a salary, not an hourly wage, they no more get paid holidays than i get paid weekends.

Their day starts before any kids arrive at school, they leave well after the final kid has gone home, where they go home and continue to work marking school work and preparing lessons.

The idea that on the last day of the school year teachers stop work and don't start again until the first day of the new term is as stupid and childlike as beleiving that teachers live in the school.


----------



## scojos

mickeyforpresident said:


> Please don't shout me down, but teachers are only - technically - paid for 39 weeks a year which is salaried and spread over 12 months! The rest of the holidays - which many of us work through at least some of those days - are again technically - unpaid.



hear hear

i also agree that many parenst use us as unpaid baby sitting service, we offer many extra cirr activities which are now the rule rather than the exception.
unfortunately when you need to them to do extra hours in year 11 they dont want to


----------



## Kath2003

the ringmaster said:


> The idea that on the last day of the school year teachers stop work and don't start again until the first day of the new term is as stupid and childlike as beleiving that teachers live in the school.



Some days it feels that way


----------



## scojos

the ringmaster said:


> Teachers are paid a salary, not an hourly wage, they no more get paid holidays than i get paid weekends.
> 
> Their day starts before any kids arrive at school, they leave well after the final kid has gone home, where they go home and continue to work marking school work and preparing lessons.
> 
> The idea that on the last day of the school year teachers stop work and don't start again until the first day of the new term is as stupid and childlike as beleiving that teachers live in the school.



can i also add that a teachers salary starts low, and unless you are willing/able to take on extra responsibility then it creeps up as you go up the pay scale.
anyone that intersted can go on the tes website and check out the rates for their area- its not top secret like in industry...
people like me, who worked in industry before teaching, can/could earn double what they get teaching, if they choose to go back into industry.
thanks


----------



## Daysleeper40

Ok - I've read most of this thread and for the record I believe:

Holiday in term time should be on consideration of the specific circumstances and the childs previous attendence record - it should not be the norm or expected. 

Holidays to Florida really aren't that educational imo - it is a poor argument. You can talk about learning through fun all you want - going to the zoo is educational... going swimming teaches an important skill... playing brain training on your DS might help with maths - but you wouldn't dream of taking your kid out of school for two weeks to do any of those things.

Parents often seem to want it all their own way - you wouldn't be happy if the teacher just didn't turn up for school but some of you are quite happy to take your kids out for 2 weeks at a time? What is the difference? - the fact that the holiday is on your terms and in your interests as far as I can see. If there are no other extenuating circumstance (like not being able to take time off work in the holidays / some kind of once in a lifetime trip when your child has an otherwise excellent attendence record) then it's all about the money in a lot of cases. I don't think parents should try to dress it up as anything else.

Suggesting that teachers are getting some kind of paid holiday when on school trips is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.


----------



## tttessa

I'm a dinner lady - oops sorry that was non-p.c.  - a "Mid-day Supervisor" - or , as one parent said her son described me  -  "the lady who lives in the hall and does skipping" ,  so I can't imagine the things they think about teachers...

Tessa


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Great to see eveyone being respectful towards each other. Sorry to hear about your finger Wayne!!


----------



## scojos

howlongtillsummer? said:


> Great to see eveyone being respectful towards each other. Sorry to hear about your finger Wayne!!



kathy-wayne will be surrounded by teachers at the pool party and i have already threatened to throw him in the pool, so he is being on his best behaviour


----------



## UKDEB

Daysleeper40 said:


> Parents often seem to want it all their own way - you wouldn't be happy if the teacher just didn't turn up for school but some of you are quite happy to take your kids out for 2 weeks at a time? What is the difference? - the fact that the holiday is on your terms and in your interests as far as I can see.


That happened all too often when my girls were in sixth form.  I lost count of the number of times they'd come home and say they'd been left to their own devices.


----------



## UKDEB

Kath2003 said:


> we DO work hard (and much of it unpaid - we are not contractually obliged to carry out ANY activities before school, after school, at lunch etc. - so all those extra-curricular clubs, concerts, sporting events etc. are off our own back).


I don't have any beef with what you say, BUT, this is no different to working in the commercial world.  As a banker, I was contracted and paid for a 35 hour week, but was forced to work more like 60 just to meet my targets.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

scojos said:


> kathy-wayne will be surrounded by teachers at the pool party and i have already threatened to throw him in the pool, so he is being on his best behaviour





 Now that would be good entertainment during our endlessly and needlessly long summer holidays.


----------



## Kath2003

UKDEB said:


> I don't have any beef with what you say, BUT, this is no different to working in the commercial world.  As a banker, I was contracted and paid for a 35 hour week, but was forced to work more like 60 just to meet my targets.



Of course, I agree - I was merely pointing out that, whilst some people see that with 13 weeks holiday we seem to have a sweet deal (and I agree: it's great - but the pay reflects it) when we work just as hard as any other professional. I bet any teacher would love the salary of a banker  but I still wouldn't do anything else


----------



## fairytale

UKDEB said:


> I don't have any beef with what you say, BUT, this is no different to working in the commercial world.  As a banker, I was contracted and paid for a 35 hour week, but was forced to work more like 60 just to meet my targets.



I think its the professional world full stop !!!

As a Lawyer I would only get paid a set salary regardless of whether I was up from 5am preparing a case or in the office till 8pm at night dictating etc...

When I had our first child I was offered a part time position to return, but knew without asking the question that I would be paid half my salary for what would end up been a 37 hour week.


----------



## UKDEB

scojos said:


> i ll swap jobs with anyone who can just shut there laptop and start again then next morning.....


At the risk of labouring a point; not a reality for most of us.  Before I resigned as a Commercial Bank Manager, I was based at home.  When I wasn't out on the road visiting customers, it wasn't unusual for me to find mysefl shut in my study from 7am until 7pm and again from 10pm until 2am.  On more than one occasion ahead of Florida trips, I've turned off my laptop at 5am and got straight into the car to make my way to the airport! 



Kath2003 said:


> I bet any teacher would love the salary of a banker.


Believe me, you'd be disappointed.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

fairytale said:


> I think its the professional world full stop !!!
> 
> As a Lawyer I would only get paid a set salary regardless of whether I was up from 5am preparing a case or in the office till 8pm at night dictating etc...
> 
> When I had our first child I was offered a part time position to return, but knew without asking the question that I would be paid half my salary for what would end up been a 37 hour week.



I agree completely. It is just that it is our profession which is being held up for criticism by some posters here. The fact that educational authorities have banned all term time holidays does not mean that teacher's holiday entitlements are fair game.

I think this point was initally made to highlight the fact that some of us have no choice but to travel in school holidays. Taking a group on an educational visit does NOT count. In doing that I am unable to see my daughter for a week which is heart-wrenching.

Anyway. I think that if you have no option but to remove a child from school for a holiday that you should do it. You can help your child catch up and I would probably do the same myself. However, if you can go in the school holidays that is when you should go.


----------



## UKDEB

fairytale said:


> When I had our first child I was offered a part time position to return, but knew without asking the question that I would be paid half my salary for what would end up been a 37 hour week.


This is precisely what led me to resign after 28 years full-time.  I took a career break to care for my mother and, when that break came to an end, I was encouraged (implored  ) to return part-time, but I knew I'd be expected to deliver exactly the same: I'd just be paid less.


----------



## scojos

UKDEB said:


> At the risk of labouring a point; not a reality for most of us.  Before I resigned as a Commercial Bank Manager, I was based at home.  When I wasn't out on the road visiting customers, it wasn't unusual for me to find mysefl shut in my study from 7am until 7pm and again from 10pm until 2am.  On more than one occasion ahead of Florida trips, I've turned off my laptop at 5am and got straight into the car to make my way to the airport!
> 
> 
> Believe me, you'd be disappointed.




this is totally the point i was making, thank you for reinforcing it! professionals in all industrys, whatever they may be- well paid or not, do not switch off properly at any time.  this is why my disney time is so important, my colleagues laugh at me, a 36year old woman being obsessed with a flying fairy BUT the time on here and the time over there, is family time im not thinking about work...i know...its silly... but its my "down" time, and i deserve it  the point i was making (v badly!) is that teachers dont switch off easily...i know there are other people the same
i also think that as dissers we all have a slightly obsessive character, what attracted us to the dis boards in the first place was the need for info to plan a perfect holiday, what makes us stay and spend time here are our friends, we all have different opinions(and this thread is proof of that) but everything and everyone has remained civil, it has been informative and we respect eachothers varied opinions... I like that.
Tracy


----------



## wayneg

scojos said:


> kathy-wayne will be surrounded by teachers at the pool party and i have already threatened to throw him in the pool, so he is being on his best behaviour



Teachers are the best!!!! The ones from the Midlands are the best of the best. 

Have I got out of a soaking yet?


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

LOL when I saw your name I thought you had closed it!! Hehehehe .... soaking! From a teacher?? Never


----------



## psharrock

Here is my dilema.

We decided last year that we would go to Florida for Easter 2011, trying to be good we didn't want to take the kids out of school like we had done when they were younger and still in infants.

Anyway we have now got the holiday calendars for both our children, and as they are in different schools they do not match at all. DD's school is having the standard 1 week before and 1 week after Easter off, and our DS's school is having two weeks before + Easter Monday & Tuesday.

So I suppose we have 3 choices.

1. Don't Go
2. Take DD 10 out of school for a week at the end of term.
3. Take DS 12 out of school for 3 days at the start of term.

DD will be in year 6, so not keen on taking her out in her SATs year, but don't really want to take DS out of secondary schoold either.

These schools are both in the same LEA, so as its frowned upon taken our children out of school why on earth can't the school holidays not be matched up.

DD's school have already told us they will give her the time off as long as she does the homework they will set her.

However, we are currently edging towards option 3, but are going to talk to DS's school before making a final decision. 

Paul


----------



## Dimplenose

This happened a couple of years ago in our area.  There were a lot of VERY angry parents - not just the ones that were taking holidays but those arranging child care as well as teachers whose children had different holidays to them.

I know it won't solve your problems but do complain and get everyone else you know to complain too.  Now the schools liaise with each other - and there was an apology letter from the few out of kilter schools that caused the problems.


----------



## the ringmaster

psharrock said:


> Here is my dilema.
> 
> We decided last year that we would go to Florida for Easter 2011, trying to be good we didn't want to take the kids out of school like we had done when they were younger and still in infants.
> 
> Anyway we have now got the holiday calendars for both our children, and as they are in different schools they do not match at all. DD's school is having the standard 1 week before and 1 week after Easter off, and our DS's school is having two weeks before + Easter Monday & Tuesday.
> 
> So I suppose we have 3 choices.
> 
> 1. Don't Go
> 2. Take DD 10 out of school for a week at the end of term.
> 3. Take DS 12 out of school for 3 days at the start of term.
> 
> DD will be in year 6, so not keen on taking her out in her SATs year, but don't really want to take DS out of secondary schoold either.
> 
> These schools are both in the same LEA, so as its frowned upon taken our children out of school why on earth can't the school holidays not be matched up.
> 
> DD's school have already told us they will give her the time off as long as she does the homework they will set her.
> 
> However, we are currently edging towards option 3, but are going to talk to DS's school before making a final decision.
> 
> Paul




It depends not on the age of the student but on which year they are in. Whichever one doesn't have exams that summer, take her out of school.   Explain to the school why you have to take her out and they will probably let her.


----------



## Winnie McPooh

I work in the leisure/sport industry and our busiest times of year are school holidays, so we are encouraged not too take our holidays during these times. So I have to either take my child out of school or not go on holiday. Its not an ideal situation from either side, this year we have decided to take her out of school but it won't be something we will be doing regularly. After this holiday it will be back to days away here and there and the odd weekend.

Just realised ma misses was logged on before me....this is not a post from Winnie McPooh


----------



## T16GEM

UKDEB said:


> I don't have any beef with what you say, BUT, this is no different to working in the commercial world.  As a banker, I was contracted and paid for a 35 hour week, but was forced to work more like 60 just to meet my targets.





fairytale said:


> I think its the professional world full stop !!!



I totally agree with these statements, try working for yourself it NEVER stops!  100% thinking about the business, being at work, working to get work.  Even when we were in Florida in January we were constantly in touch with those covering the shop for us, emailing and texting to make sure everything was ok.  I think bottom line is *we all work hard in our jobs* going above and beyond the call of our duties.  

Loving that this thread is so totally off topic but still open - it's got to be a first!


----------



## Grumpy McScrooge

Winnie McPooh said:


> I work in the leisure/sport industry and our busiest times of year are school holidays, so we are encouraged not too take our holidays during these times. So I have to either take my child out of school or not go on holiday. Its not an ideal situation from either side, this year we have decided to take her out of school but it won't be something we will be doing regularly. After this holiday it will be back to days away here and there and the odd weekend.
> 
> Just realised ma misses was logged on before me....this is not a post from Winnie McPooh


This should have been posted by me!!!!


----------



## scojos

T16GEM said:


> Loving that this thread is so totally off topic but still open - it's got to be a first!



this is because wayne is scared of getting wet


----------



## 2Tiggies

scojos said:


> this is because wayne is scared of getting wet


----------



## mickeyforpresident

A couple of extra things....

To re-address the OP. I've been trying to find out from my LEA, LEA policy and I'm not completely sure an LEA can instruct all their schools to not allow holidays. Local Management of School's allows all schools to make their own policies, so actually the school could allow you to go if they really wanted to. An example in my authority is that the LEA asks all schools to agree to children moving schools should only do so at the beginning of a term. All the "county" schools abide by this, where as the "church" school do not!

Now.... can I ask all the teachers for their opinion on this. It seems that most parents seem to think that its ok for children to miss weeks of school when they are in infants (Key Stage 1) and juniors (Key Stage 2), where as I see these, especially Reception and KS1 as THE most important years where teacher direction and support is depended on, whereas children, the older they get, the more independant they are and so isn;t it best to take them out then????!!!! I am, of course, coming from a Primary Perspective!!

Thank you Wayne for letting the thread stay open - and if I ever meet you, I promise never to wet you!!!


----------



## iluvtot

OP, just to say we have received the letter threatening us with a fine, having taken our kids out. (This was after speaking to the Head and explaining our situation). When I rang and pointed out that I had already 'cleared'  it with the Head (albeit unauthorised), I was told it was a standard letter that wouldn't be acted upon.
Due to DH's job,we had to go outside school hols, but went in Dec, when they lost a few days when they weren't doing much anyway. Last year we went in Aug, first time as DS was taking AS's, and DD'S were taking GCSE's.
This year, again they are all taking exams, so we can't go before 30th June (DS's last exam)
At your children's age, I would say do whatever you feel comfortable with. Life is short, and you never know what is around the corner.The first time we went to Disney was because our son's Godfather died suddenly. He was only 36 and left a wife and a 5 month old son. We couldn't make any sense of it,
but decided then that family would come first. So, regardless of school hols, we took our quality family time when my husband could take it. No regrets at all.
Jules x


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

mickeyforpresident said:


> A couple of extra things....
> 
> To re-address the OP. I've been trying to find out from my LEA, LEA policy and I'm not completely sure an LEA can instruct all their schools to not allow holidays. Local Management of School's allows all schools to make their own policies, so actually the school could allow you to go if they really wanted to. An example in my authority is that the LEA asks all schools to agree to children moving schools should only do so at the beginning of a term. All the "county" schools abide by this, where as the "church" school do not!
> 
> Now.... can I ask all the teachers for their opinion on this. It seems that most parents seem to think that its ok for children to miss weeks of school when they are in infants (Key Stage 1) and juniors (Key Stage 2), where as I see these, especially Reception and KS1 as THE most important years where teacher direction and support is depended on, whereas children, the older they get, the more independant they are and so isn;t it best to take them out then????!!!! I am, of course, coming from a Primary Perspective!!
> 
> Thank you Wayne for letting the thread stay open - and if I ever meet you, I promise never to wet you!!!



I respectfully disagree. I taught infants for six years before moving to upper key stage 2. I am confident that I teach more content now than I did with the little ones. Also with little ones they are learning through doing and through experiences. You can teach phonics, early reading, number and colour, routine, time of the day ... ....  all through the stimulating holiday environment. The things which I cover would be much harder to tie in real life situations - I know I would seriously struggle and I know the topics and learning intentions inside out. 

I also disagree re the soaking situation


----------



## luke

And it's gone...


----------



## kristieuk

144 posts is something of a record - it's a shame that after all of the posts, the thread could end acrimoniously. There are up and down sides of every job, and whatever your views, this was really a thread about allowing parents to make informed decisions and to help others reach decisions themselves. Let's get some love back in the room!


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Yep everyone's opinion is different and that is as it should be. With the prices onsite as high as they are next summer anything is possible!!!!


----------



## Pegasus928

I read the posts earlier, that have since been deleted, and thought then that, up until that point, everyone had been getting across their views and opinions in a polite and good natured manner. 
As this post is dealing with our childrens education, money and - to a certain extent - local politics I am amazed at how well it has gone so far, and can honestly say that I have learnt a lot not only from fellow parents but also from those in the education profession.
I know that you do not have an easy job and applaud the work that the majority of you do to prepare our children for their educational future, and for their future outside of school.
DW and I have both had reason to criticise my own schools handling of DS education and well being in the past, but under no circumstances would I use that as an excuse to come on this thread and do a spot of 'teacher bashing' (mainly because I am as scared as Wayne - and the chance that I may meet you all in person one day whereby you could exact your revenge is deterrent enough )


----------



## luke

How great that a few deletes and things still stay civil and well thought out.
However it does make my post a few up from this seem very random


----------



## T16GEM

luke said:


> However it does make my post a few up from this seem very random



I must have logged off last night before the deletes - I thought your post was odd!  

I'm glad to see the thread still open!


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Well I have missed those deletes entirely - I hope I didn't say anything wrong. I thought your post was about what I had said Luke!!


----------



## Kath2003

I read them since they were aimed at me and didn't see any value in responding since it would have served only to wind the poster up further. 

It's the school holidays now anyway


----------



## scojos

Kath2003 said:


> I read them since they were aimed at me and didn't see any value in responding since it would have served only to wind the poster up further.
> 
> It's the school holidays now anyway



well i missed them too, and did think luke was losing the plot
but then i thought to many champagnes watching the footie and it all made sense
tracy


----------



## UKDEB

Wishing everyone a wonderful Easter break whatever their profession.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Nice touch.  Have a lovely Easter all of you.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

howlongtillsummer? said:


> I respectfully disagree. I taught infants for six years before moving to upper key stage 2. I am confident that I teach more content now than I did with the little ones. Also with little ones they are learning through doing and through experiences. You can teach phonics, early reading, number and colour, routine, time of the day ... ....  all through the stimulating holiday environment. The things which I cover would be much harder to tie in real life situations - I know I would seriously struggle and I know the topics and learning intentions inside out.
> 
> I also disagree re the soaking situation



Thanks for this - I was looking for different opinions, and I think you have a great point!

Completely missed the deleted entries?!!


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

No problem - if I am really honest and was in another profession I would have considered taking DD out of school in one of her first couple of years, but I had no choice!

I think schools may only be concerned with attendance targets rather than necessarily the educational impact, like the snow closures rather than poor attendance - what do you think??

And I missed the deleted posts too - I always miss everything lol


----------



## luke

The deleted stuff was just a bit of teacher bashing, nicely removed so we can all stay civil


----------



## Zeebs

I got to see the deleted posts and quite frankly it is better most people missed them as this thread would have turned very nasty very fast and at the moment it is full of good information for both parents and teachers.

Kirsten


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Cool.


----------



## wayneg

Kath2003 said:


> I read them since they were aimed at me and didn't see any value in responding since it would have served only to wind the poster up further.
> 
> It's the school holidays now anyway



Many times threads could be kept open if more people didn't react to the offending posts and hit the report button instead. If the posts are against the rules/Argumentative/Sarcastic we can remove and keep the thread open.
Although no-one reported the posts this morning I saw them before anyone responded with negative comments.

Back to Teachers, Matt had option of school trip to New York this Easter, he chose Florida with us. 
I think they need me to help with school trip planning to get the costs down


----------



## luke

Good stuff Wayne, I kept my head and didn't respond as I would in real life or on other forums I use, here I keep myself family friendly 

as for your trip planning, the trip we're taking our key stage 3ers in May is ridiculous pricewise, so I'll consult you next year before offering my HoF my help in planning


----------



## 2Tiggies

luke said:


> as for your trip planning, the trip we're taking our key stage 3ers in May is ridiculous pricewise, so I'll consult you next year before offering my HoF my help in planning



That's cheating isn't it?  Or maybe just plain resourceful.  If Wayne helps you out, don't be surprised to find you suddenly acquire 2 newly created posts: Chief of Planning and Minister of Finance


----------



## scojos

wayneg said:


> Many times threads could be kept open if more people didn't react to the offending posts and hit the report button instead. If the posts are against the rules/Argumentative/Sarcastic we can remove and keep the thread open.
> :



oh no, no more sacasm, you are going to have to barr me wayne


----------



## stephensmum

I have not posted but have been following this thread with interest, it has been very informative & i am pleased that it has stayed open.  I thought you teachers did very well in your responses, as I thought it did look like the intention was to wind you up, at times.  I am not a teacher but as a mum I am interested in teacher's opinions on this.  Well done, Wayne for being quick off the mark, so that this thread could stay open.


----------



## joolz1910

I have been a teacher for 17 years...wow, I am old. I am still firmly of the opinion that quality time with your family is essential, and that a carefully considered week or so out of school will not ruin a child's life chances.


----------



## luke

You know what, I haven't even given my opinion yet!
I'm kinda in two minds, thinking that I don't like seeing the little H on the register but even if someone is out for a week, they'll miss a maximum of four of my lessons, not too hard to catch up from! 
I guess it's probably more jealousy than anything else, knowing I'm restricted to more expensive peakk times. But then the benefits of the job more than make up for that! If only more places offered 'teacher discount' like places like Swan and Dolphin do


----------



## mickeyforpresident

Of course non of this would be an issue at all, if holiday companies kept prices down in the holidays!!!!

The fine for going on holiday, in my authority, can only be applied for after 12 days of unauthorised holidays. The fine is £100 or £50 if paid within x days. So, on the assumption that this is "law" and not a LEA thing, £50 is nothing on top of the cost of a holiday. Plus, if you just go for 10 school days (2 weeks) then its unlikely that a fine can even be issued.

However, I'm still on the "175 other days in the year!!" argument - however, the PP suggestion of jelousy is an interesting one to consider..... I guess I might be too!


----------



## Kath2003

mickeyforpresident said:


> Of course non of this would be an issue at all, if holiday companies kept prices down in the holidays!!!!



Supply and demand - if the prices were lower, the seats on the flights would be sold out instantly! Besides, it's possible to get good deals if you're willing to compromise (e.g. cut a day off to save £100 on each flight) and shop around, connect on flights etc. 

We're restricted to school holiday times but my budget is <£100 pppn all inclusive and so far, all good


----------



## kristieuk

It's not always the cost difference, for us there are other considerations such as the fact that both dh and I work for the same company in the same department, and obviously the school holidays are a popular time for staff leave if only for childcare reasons. He is a partner and doesn't want to be seen to pull rank over less well paid administrative staff, so it is very difficult for us both to get time off together during the school holidays. I am not complaining though as we love our holiday in October when the weather in Florida is usually beautiful, it is quieter, and we are getting away from the turn to winter here. When we get home the run up to Christmas makes those long winter nights more bearable.

DD is in year 5, but has missed a week or so either side of October half term every year. This is fortunately with her school's blessing, and she is very bright, enthusiastic and none the worse for spending valuable time with her family. I can understand that for teachers, having fixed holiday time is quite claustrophobic, but as Luke says, that is a disadvantage of a career that otherwise has many other advantages. It is one of the reasons I decided on a career in law rather than education as daft as that now seems!

The world is made up of many different types of families with very different working lives, and I do think that within reason, there should remain some flexibility to allow a fixed amount of leave where there are good reasons, and that child is otherwise settled and capable.


----------



## melly

mickeyforpresident said:


> Please don't shout me down, but teachers are only - technically - paid for 39 weeks a year which is salaried and spread over 12 months! The rest of the holidays - which many of us work through at least some of those days - are again technically - unpaid.



so then technically your actual hourly wage is nearly 20% higher than your (larger than average) yealy salary appears to be


----------



## luke

Are you a perma-troll or just on this matter?


----------



## iluvtot

melly said:


> so then technically your actual hourly wage is nearly 20% higher than your (larger than average) yealy salary appears to be



MEE-OW!!

Just to add my 2p worth, I work in pre-school; the wages are rubbish, and we don't get paid throughout the hols. But I love it!
However!!! You could not pay me enough to be a teacher these days!! I think that most of them do a stirling job, and deserve medals!
So one huge big 'high-5' to all you teachers out there, and have a peaceful and restful Easter break

Jules x
Oh and one other point I would like to make is that my children are all taking exams this year, and their teachers are actually running revision classes next week for them!!


----------



## melly

luke said:


> Are you a perma-troll or just on this matter?



no, Im not. I am presenting the facts. 

Teachers are blating about this yet missing the fact that they get paid a full salary for doing 75% of the time that most people do. If their salary was pro-rata's down (like teaching assistants) then I would accept all this "we are salaried at 39 weeks per year" however if their salary is 30K a year then 30K a year they will get (less tax etc) fo doing 30 odd weeks of the year. 

Another observation I have made on this thread is how all the teachers posts have strangely been allowed to stay on and yet anyone questioning them have been silenced. A prime example is when a teacher posted something along the lines of "would you work extra hours / time for no extra pay". This was met by several posts (including some of mine) pointing out that this is what very much happens in the private sector week in week out. 

At the end of the day, it is what it is however teachers are very much mistaken if they think they are going to get sympathy for doing "extra hours" while on a jolly holiday when people reading the posts themselves are paid for 37hrs a week but forced to do 50+ hrs (unpaid but get Lieu hours that they are unable to take anyway) just so they meet targets and avoid the sack.


----------



## melly

iluvtot said:


> Just to add my 2p worth, I work in pre-school; the wages are rubbish, and we don't get paid throughout the hols. :



Ah but your not a salaried teacher, are you. My posts were to salaried teachers who do get a good yearly salary and only work 39 weeks of the year. TBH my respect was lost when during a recession there was ballots for a strike because they claimed a 6%+ pay rise was "paltry"....all of a suddent my kids missing a few days of schooling was no longer that important yet the same people will lecture me if I choose to take my kids on a great holiday. 

As for the likes of yourself Im sure you do a great job, despite being paid poorly and yet you dont complain, just get on with your job and love it. I think thats great.


----------



## luke

Thing is tho, no teachers have 'blated on' about anything of the sort? Especially not about pay! Also maybe it wasn't so much what you said but the way that you said it?
May I ask what job it is that you do and what you actually have against teachers?


----------



## MrSplashMountain #1!

Why is this thread even  still active!?

Oh well


----------



## Pegasus928

The thread is still active because it is obviously important and of interest to a lot of people on here, which is what is so great about a public forum.
Up to now it has been civilised, open and informative from both sides and I for one would think it a shame if it changed from that.


----------



## melly

luke said:


> Thing is tho, no teachers have 'blated on' about anything of the sort? Especially not about pay! Also maybe it wasn't so much what you said but the way that you said it?
> May I ask what job it is that you do and what you actually have against teachers?





Like I said in a post above I have nothing against teachers they do an important job. However, from knowing a number of teachers I have grown tired of the "woe is me" attitude. As a proffesion they are paid an above average salary and do great hours on an anualised basis. 

As for me, I am a plant manager in industry. Granted, I am on a very good salary however I have to stay until my stuff is sorted. If things arent working well I can be in work for 18 - 20hrs in a day. I can be called up at 3AM to make a decision if required. I cant just swann off because Ive done my 8 hours because at the end of the day if my targets arent met it is me that gets the heave ho. So forgive me for being intolerent to peole who get 13 weeks holiday in a year plus a great salary.


----------



## scojos

what a shame, this had been such a civil argument, shame some people have decided teachers are "fair game".
id just like to point out most teachers dont earn £30k per year, they have to have additional responsibilities (TLRs) or have gone through threshold (6 years teaching experience minimum) - however - i would courtiously invite anyone who thinks we have an easily life, to join me for a day in my inner birmingham school, to deal with what we deal with on an everyday basis, (11-18 year olds and then tell me we have an easy life.
I repeat, MY REqUEST WAS MADE COURTEOUSLY
happy easter
tracy


----------



## FloFlo71

melly said:


> no, Im not. I am presenting the facts.
> 
> Teachers are blating about this yet missing the fact that they get paid a full salary for doing 75% of the time that most people do. If their salary was pro-rata's down (like teaching assistants) then I would accept all this "we are salaried at 39 weeks per year" however if their salary is 30K a year then 30K a year they will get (less tax etc) fo doing 30 odd weeks of the year.
> 
> Another observation I have made on this thread is how all the teachers posts have strangely been allowed to stay on and yet anyone questioning them have been silenced. A prime example is when a teacher posted something along the lines of "would you work extra hours / time for no extra pay". This was met by several posts (including some of mine) pointing out that this is what very much happens in the private sector week in week out.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is what it is however teachers are very much mistaken if they think they are going to get sympathy for doing "extra hours" while on a jolly holiday when people reading the posts themselves are paid for 37hrs a week but forced to do 50+ hrs (unpaid but get Lieu hours that they are unable to take anyway) just so they meet targets and avoid the sack.




Teachers start on £19000 a year so no way is £30000 the average salary, I wish! But don't let the facts get in the way of your bigoted jealous green eyed views.


----------



## melly

scojos said:


> what a shame, this had been such a civil argument, shame some people have decided teachers are "fair game".
> id just like to point out most teachers dont earn £30k per year, they have to have additional responsibilities (TLRs) or have gone through threshold (6 years teaching experience minimum)
> i dislike the tone to which this argument has lowered and i have therefore reported it to the mods - however - i would courtiously invite anyone who thinks we have an easily life, to join me for a day in my inner birmingham school, to deal with what we deal with on an everyday basis, (11-18 year olds and then tell me we have an easy life.
> I repeat, MY REqUEST WAS MADE COURTEOUSLY
> happy easter
> tracy



Well I dont think teachers are fair game, nor has anything been put that way. There are 2 sides to every debate, why do you feel you can express your opinion yet Im not allowed to express mine? Why is it ok to question parents ability (as this thread has done) yet questions can not be asked about teachers?  Nothing I have posed has been of a personal nature. 

As for the salary thing, the average teachers salary is something like 33K per year. So if "most teachers" dont earn anything like that then there must be some really high earners in there to drag that average figure up.


----------



## melly

FloFlo71 said:


> Teachers start on £19000 a year so no way is £30000 the average salary, I wish! But don't let the facts get in the way of your bigoted jealous green eyed views.



I will refer you to the facts

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Teacher_3025


----------



## FloFlo71

melly said:


> I will refer you to the facts
> 
> http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Teacher_3025




And anyone with half a brain understands that that doesn't mean that every teacher gets paid that amount.


----------



## melly

FloFlo71 said:


> And anyone with half a brain understands that that doesn't mean that every teacher gets paid that amount.



And anyone with half a brain would realised that noone claimed they did. Furthermore, anyone with half a brain will realise that if the AVERAGE wage for the proffesion is ~30K then a significant number of teachers must be on or approaching that figure. (either that or there is 1 bloke at the top earning 4billion PA)


----------



## luke

melly said:


> And anyone with half a brain would realised that noone claimed they did. Furthermore, anyone with half a brain will realise that if the AVERAGE wage for the proffesion is ~30K then a significant number of teachers must be on or approaching that figure. *(either that or there is 1 bloke at the top earning 4billion PA)*



 I like it!

In all fairness, I've got no bother with you refering to how much teachers get.
I'm about 3 or 4 years away from getting that 30k average, but don't forget that average is pushed up by 'London weighting' where teacher's start on much more 

Like I said tho, I'm pretty sure there's not been any teachers here moaning about poor holidays, and the only issue is you're insistance that we only work 39 weeks a year.  For example I was in work every day last week despite it being school holidays (Ok, it was by my choice, but there were a fair few teachers in too).

At least you're not being as inflamitory as you were the other day tho.

For the record, I do however think you're still a troll, having had a quick glanse through your previous postings (us teachers have far too much time on our hands  ) and seeing the kind of stuff you post on on what topics - all classic trolling style.

If not, I apologise, and fully agree with Kenny (Pegasus) earlier, this can be a good thread with people on 'both sides' (although I don't really see the need for there even to be sides) giving reasoned and polite arguements.

Happy Easter to y'all anywho


----------



## melly

luke said:


> I like it!
> 
> In all fairness, I've got no bother with you refering to how much teachers get.
> I'm about 3 or 4 years away from getting that 30k average, but don't forget that average is pushed up by 'London weighting' where teacher's start on much more
> 
> Like I said tho, I'm pretty sure there's not been any teachers here moaning about poor holidays, and the only issue is you're insistance that we only work 39 weeks a year.  For example I was in work every day last week despite it being school holidays (Ok, it was by my choice, but there were a fair few teachers in too).
> 
> At least you're not being as inflamitory as you were the other day tho.
> 
> For the record, I do however think you're still a troll, having had a quick glanse through your previous postings (us teachers have far too much time on our hands  ) and seeing the kind of stuff you post on on what topics - all classic trolling style.
> 
> If not, I apologise, and fully agree with Kenny (Pegasus) earlier, this can be a good thread with people on 'both sides' (although I don't really see the need for there even to be sides) giving reasoned and polite arguements.
> 
> Happy Easter to y'all anywho





At least someone on here can have a bit of banter. Others seem to think that they can judge us parents who take their kids out of school but when the tables are turned and the judgers become the judgees they dont like it.


----------



## luke

melly said:


> At least someone on here can have a bit of banter. Others seem to think that they can judge us parents who take their kids out of school but when the tables are turned and the judgers become the judgees they dont like it.



I actually think that the odd people here who were against kids being out in school holidays on this thread were non-teachers 

As I said before, my main reason against it is probably jealousy 

But then my teaching salary did buy me a rocket car and a solid gold house


----------



## melly

luke said:


> But then my teaching salary did buy me a rocket car and a solid gold house



Which you can enjoy on your 315 days off per year


----------



## luke

melly said:


> Which you can enjoy on your 315 days off per year



 Tis a tough job but someone has to do it


----------



## stephensmum

Banters good, but we are discussing our personal opinions on if children should be allowed to go on holiday in term time & not generalising about teachers.  I would like to see this thread remain open so please remain on topic.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

melly said:


> so then technically your actual hourly wage is nearly 20% higher than your (larger than average) yealy salary appears to be



Oh my!!

Well, I guess that if we were paid for 52 weeks per year, our salary would be higher, yeah. 

The salary is set by Government - please don't say we don't deserve it. I'm not moaning as I love my job and feel honest pride in what I do. But - I get to work most days at around 8am, rarely have a lunch hour, stay in school until 6pm (until 8/9pm on days I have governors meetings/parents evening/plays etc). I work most days until 10pm at home. I work most of Sundays. I think i deserve the money I earn.

And interesting - when I was a probationer teacher, I worked out that I earned about 75p per hour (in my first year!!) It was many, many years ago.

Wayne - think it needs to close now!


----------



## melly

mickeyforpresident said:


> Oh my!!
> 
> Well, I guess that if we were paid for 52 weeks per year, our salary would be higher, yeah.
> 
> The salary is set by Government - please don't say we don't deserve it


  feel free to point out where anyone has stated that you dont deserve your pay.         As for the yearly salary thing of course you arent paid for 52 weeks because you dont do it . The point was that someone complained about being paid for 39 weeks oblvious to the fact that the average teachers wage is above the national average even though the time in work ismuch less.


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## Kath2003

I'm utterly confused by all this given that all the teachers here have said that we appreciate that holiday is a GREAT perk of our job and that we support both parents and schools in making the decisions each feel is best for the children in their care? 

I don't remember 'blating' about pay - in fact, I don't even remember pay being particularly mentioned in this thread?

Melly - I think you need to chill out a little bit. 

£30K would be nice, though... A teacher on £30K has to have been in the profession for more than 5 full academic years or have taken on some additional responsibility. A HUGE proportion of teachers leave before the beginning of their second year (18% of those who make it into the profession; 40% of trained teachers never actually enter) so I'm guessing that despite the "above average" salary and the (admittedly fantastic) holiday allowance, teaching isn't worth it for some...


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

I think you dealt with that exceptionally well guys. Again.


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## Lizzybear

I have mixed views on all this. I work with 1-2 year olds in a charity-run nursery and 20-30k a year would only be possible if I went into management which would mean less time with the kids. I'm a graduate and have considered doing the PGCE more than a few times but ultimately I love working with the under fives and I have faith that workers in the early years sector will one day get the pay and recognition that teachers do like in other European countries, things are changing albeit slowly  I have friends who are teachers and have worked as a teaching assistant and I have to say that while many teachers are 110% committed and go above and beyond the job role (one of my best friends is a full-time nursery teacher but also acting foundation stage manager, stays after school finishes most nights teaching English to some of the parents AND is doing a masters!) but others I know/have worked with leave when the kids do and not a minute later, look down their nose at TAs (though I had a better grasp of the EYFS than this particular teacher ), sit the kids in front of DVDs for most of the end of term weeks etc. As with any profession you get the good and the bad!


----------



## UKDEB

Lizzybear said:


> As with any profession you get the good and the bad!


Aint that the truth.


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## angel659

These threads always make me laugh. Everytime the topic changes into an arguement, regardless if it is banter or not. Everytime the thread is hijacked from the op's question and into who agrees or not.

How about we offer some good advice and get off our soap box.


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## leemel

I think one of the problems with parents being told when they can take their children out of school is the arbitrary nature that councils can close schools for use as Polling stations, that INSET days are taken during term time rather than as part of the breaks. That coupled with the almost arbitrary nature of the closures that occurred over the recent cold spells i.e. schools less than a mile from each other, one open, one closed, both under the same LEA, with conditions to get to each equally as bad.
My daughters school have been very good, as long as she catches up or does the work before she goes, they don't have a problem.


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## melly

leemel said:


> I think one of the problems with parents being told when they can take their children out of school is the arbitrary nature that councils can close schools for use as Polling stations, that INSET days are taken during term time rather than as part of the breaks. That coupled with the almost arbitrary nature of the closures that occurred over the recent cold spells i.e. schools less than a mile from each other, one open, one closed, both under the same LEA, with conditions to get to each equally as bad.
> m.



Correct.

For some reason if a parent takes their kid out of school it is seen as a cataclysmic disaster even though the time out is a fraction of the total schooling time. Strangely days wasted by the school allegedly don't have as big of an effect


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## 2Tiggies

melly said:


> Correct.
> 
> For some reason if a parent takes their kid out of school it is seen as a cataclysmic disaster even though the time out is a fraction of the total schooling time. Strangely days wasted by the school allegedly don't have as big of an effect



I think most people agree on this point.  Again however, it is the Education Authority, not the teachers.  The approach does vary widely from one school to the other.  DD's school is really good I believe.  I have only taken her out once for a few days and she is never absent, however many parents take their kids out regularly and for a fair chunk of time and I assume that this speaks to a fairly lenient attitude.  A lot depends on the head teacher.  A certain amount of leeway is given for them to apply "practical common sense" in respect of a decsion to grant or deny absence.  A greater degree of the regulations are imposed by the authorities - and these are the ones that are often completely illogical.  A teacher does not have the authority to grant absences.  Whether it is practical to offer support for missed work is another story and those who are able to do so, do so as a great favour to both the parent and the child.  

What needs to be borne in mind is that while frustration and anger at illogical and inconsistent regulations can cause plenty of outrage, it is important to attack the source of the problem.  Just trying to keep things in perspective.


----------



## Cyrano

2Tiggies said:


> I think most people agree on this point.  Again however, it is the Education Authority, not the teachers.  The approach does vary widely from one school to the other.



I always think it is interesting the way an Education Authority and Schools are talked of as separate bodies. Employees in both will have the same council badge. Just as the road sweeper will have as those employed in the Transporation Service.

Most mangers/directors in Education will come from a teaching background so are still teachers.


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## Scrap_Vamp

Cyrano said:


> I always thing it is interesting the way an Education Authority and Schools are talked of as separate bodies. Employees in both will have the same council badge. Just as the road sweeper will have as those employed in the Transporation Service.
> 
> Most mangers/directors in Education will come from a teaching background so are still teachers.



While that may be the case, the point that was being made is that the teachers in individual schools should not be blamed for these things - we are on the bottom rung of the ladder and have no say at all!

At the school where I work, despite being a large comprehensive, we serve a whole network of remote villages.  Most of the children travel to school by bus.  This means that if the buses don't run to the villages, over 70% of our children wouldn't be in school!  This also means they don't get half days at the end of terms, though   In addition, teachers don't necessarily teach where they live.  I am a 15 minute car ride away from my school on main roads, and would have gone in during the snow as my route was clear.  However, the decision was made for me by the Head, who closed the school.  A further factor influencing this decision was that a lot of our site is on steep hills, and there are health and safety implications.  We were only closed fully for two days, in the end, whereas other schools more local to me were closed for at least 4.

Anyway, this is waaaaay off-topic, but I think the point is that teachers are politely requesting that you don't blame those of us on the ground for decisions that are out of our hands


----------



## 2Tiggies

Scrap_Vamp said:


> While that may be the case, the point that was being made is that the teachers in individual schools should not be blamed for these things - we are on the bottom rung of the ladder and have no say at all!



Yes, that was exactly the point I was trying to make.  Apologies for any confusion if it didn't come across clearly.  All I was trying to say was that whiile I think many of the rules and policies are somewhat ridiculous, blaming the teachers for rules made higher up in the line of authority is like blaming the cleaner in a steakhouse because your steak is overcooked.  



> Anyway, this is waaaaay off-topic, but I think the point is that teachers are politely requesting that you don't blame those of us on the ground for decisions that are out of our hands



I think that is fair.


----------



## Scrap_Vamp

2Tiggies said:


> Yes, that was exactly the point I was trying to make.  Apologies for any confusion if it didn't come across clearly.  All I was trying to say was that whiile I think many of the rules and policies are somewhat ridiculous, blaming the teachers for rules made higher up in the line of authority is like blaming the cleaner in a steakhouse because your steak is overcooked.



You came across very clearly - I was just confused by Reid's analogy that, as managers in the LEA might once have been teachers, therefore they are still teachers - it seemed that he was using this argument to justify blaming the teachers 

I think your post was very fair as well


----------



## Pegasus928

When we spoke to my DD headteacher (primary school) about taking her out for a 2 week holiday he was very supportive and said he didn't have an issue with it. He also added that the rules regarding fining parents wasn't aimed at those of us who rarely do it, but - and this is the example he gave - more to those kids whose parents may have seperated and they go on one holiday with Mum, then another with Dad and possibly holidays with grand parents too. I could see his point on this where a child could potentially miss a minimum of 4 weeks schooling in a year - possibly more.
The other experience we had was last year when we asked to take DS out of secondary school. I was working away at the time - sometimes up to 6 weeks away from home - and this is clearly one of the criteria where they will authorise the abscence. Although they did authorise it they said it was a one off and wouldnt be authorised in the future   My argument was that if we fell into the cirteria this time, and used the very same reasons next time we applied, why should one be authorised and one not.
It's these inconsistancies that frustrate people I feel.

Finally I would never seek to vent or blame the teachers for carrying out the rules that are laid down by the LEA. The majority of teachers I know do a fantastic job and thoroughly earn their money. One of our closest friends is a teacher and they couldn't come out for a drink with us the weekend before I came away recently because she had to stay in marking books and preparing lessons for the following week. I love the fact that when I leave work I can switch off. Unfortunately for them teaching is one of the many professions in this world where that is a little harder to achieve.


----------



## Cyrano

Scrap_Vamp said:


> You came across very clearly - I was just confused by Reid's analogy that, as managers in the LEA might once have been teachers, therefore they are still teachers - it seemed that he was using this argument to justify blaming the teachers
> 
> I think your post was very fair as well



Where did I say I blamed teachers? My remark was that I find it interesting that Education service and schools think of themselves seperate from the local authority.

Thankfully there are plenty of teachers and head-teachers that know that if they work with parents, that parents will work with them


----------



## joolz1910

Pegasus928 said:


> Unfortunately for them teaching is one of the many professions in this world where that is a little harder to achieve.



This is very true of the good teachers.  I teach more than 200 students every week - and I work part-time! I take time to get to know *all* of my students and I try to do my best by each of them. I can't just switch off at the end of the day (I'm not saying everyone else does!) or at the weekend. The kids I teach are really important to me.

....but I still support a parent's choice to take their child on a carefully considered holiday during term-time. My Headteacher would disagree and doesn't authorise *any* term-time holidays but, hey, he makes the rules, not me.


----------



## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> My Headteacher would disagree and doesn't authorise *any* term-time holidays but, hey, he makes the rules, not me.



And for anyone who found the point I was trying to make a little ambiguous: this sums it up in a sentence. 

There is more than one right way to do things - we each just have to find our own.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Yes our head doesn't authorise any term time holidays either. Used to - on completion of a written form. But a memo went round last year to say that all holidays must be marked as unauthorised. As far as I know they now just add to absence quotas and when they reach a certain percentage (90% or lower present I think) they will be investigated by welfare.


----------



## joolz1910

howlongtillsummer? said:


> Yes our head doesn't authorise any term time holidays either. Used to - on completion of a written form. But a memo went round last year to say that all holidays must be marked as unauthorised. As far as I know they now just add to absence quotas and when they reach a certain percentage (90% or lower present I think) they will be investigated by welfare.



Although I think it's draconian, I can see why my Headteacher refuses to authorise term-time holidays. We have about 1700 kids and he must get loads of requests from parents - it would be time-consuming to investigate each request and grant permission on that basis. 

Perhaps a fairer system would be to automatically authorise 10 days for students with 95% + attendance in the previous year. It would be easy to get those figures with SIMS registers, then anyone who didn't qualify could appeal and be authorised/declined individually.


----------



## UKDEB

howlongtillsummer? said:


> But a memo went round last year to say that all holidays must be marked as unauthorised. As far as I know they now just add to absence quotas and when they reach a certain percentage (90% or lower present I think) they will be investigated by welfare.


As I've said in the past, whether an absence is registered as authorised or unauthorised matters not one jot to parents who just take their children out of school for one holiday a year.  It matters to the school as they are measured on it, and it matters (quite rightly) with respect to the parents who just don't care whether or not their kids are in school (in as much as they can then be investigated by the authorities), _but not to the likes of people posting here_.  My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent.  It's your call, not that of the school.  They can posturise all they like (and some Heads really play that card to the max), but they have no jurisdiction.  Neither does the LEA with regards to those who have legitimate reasons for taking their children out of school in term time.  If you get a "fine" letter, either ignore it or challenge it.  Unless your child plays truant, or you willfully refuse to send them to school having entered them into the system, you're doing nothing wrong.  I've no doubt it must be infuriating to teachers and Head Teachers, but that's no reason to feel intimidated.


----------



## wideeyes

I took out my DD for 5 days for DLP when she was 5  which was not authorized by the head teacher, however when we got her report she had 0 unauthorised attendance.

 All are Flordia holidays were authorised though


----------



## Cyrano

UKDEB said:


> My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent.  It's your call, not that of the school.  They can posturise all they like (and some Heads really play that card to the max), but they have no jurisdiction.  Neither does the LEA with regards to those who have legitimate reasons for taking their children out of school in term time.



I agree Deb that is exactly how I have played it  

I know that in our case the Head-Teacher will only authorised term time leave in exception circumstances. Actually the head-teacher neither authorises nor refuses. They are given instructions from the Director of Education from the policies that the Councillors have approved.


----------



## UKDEB

wideeyes said:


> I took out my DD for 5 days for DLP when she was 5  which was not authorized by the head teacher, however when we got her report she had 0 unauthorised attendance.


Precisely what I was alluding to - it matters far more to the school that they don't have unauthorised absences (which is why your daughter's unauthorised absences miraculously appeared on her report as authorised).  I don't care what they call them, as long as they don't try to make me feel guilty about it.  They play on our fears as parents, but now my children are adults, what difference does it make to me or to them what the computer churned out as authorised or unauthorised on their reports?


----------



## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> A
> Perhaps a fairer system would be to automatically authorise 10 days for students with 95% + attendance in the previous year. It would be easy to get those figures with SIMS registers, then anyone who didn't qualify could appeal and be authorised/declined individually.



Now that makes good sense! 



UKDEB said:


> and it matters (quite rightly) with respect to the parents who just don't care whether or not their kids are in school



Sadly, this is where many of the stricter measures have stemmed from.  It happens often.  There are a couple of kids in DDs year who take term time holidays every term.  Not a few days - I am talking 2 weeks and sometimes more.  

What is sad is that both of these children have recently been moved into another class where they can work at a slower pace as they were no longer able to keep up in the class they were in.  Do I think absences had something to do with it?  Absolutely!   While there is no black and white, there is a sensible balance in the approach and you can't assess it when the child is 5 years old and apply it throughout their school years.  Things change and you need to review regularly. 



wideeyes said:


> I took out my DD for 5 days for DLP when she was 5  which was not authorized by the head teacher, however when we got her report she had 0 unauthorised attendance.



I had the same thing last year.  Although I did write to the head teacher as to be fair, I had booked a year ahead and phoned the school to confirm the holidays for the dates of our trip.  Having done so, I amended our booking to fall into what I was told would be the holiday period.  Only to discover a few months later that it was incorrect, by which time I would have incurred an amendment fee.  I raised this with her at the time. I got the usual letter, but her attendance record reflected 0 days absent. 



> All are Flordia holidays were authorised though


Serioulsy?


----------



## wideeyes

2Tiggies said:


> Serioulsy?



Yeah


----------



## UKDEB

2Tiggies said:


> Sadly, this is where many of the stricter measures have stemmed from.


Of course.  I guess what I'm saying is that I neither seek, nor legally require, a school's approval to take my child out in term time.  I understand why this is undoubtedly an unpopular stand-point from a teacher's point of view, but I feel equally as strongly about my right to decide, as a Head's desire for me to comply.  If the law changes we have a whole different argument on our hands, but as things stand, it's my choice.  People get confused between the law and this whole authorised/unauthorised absence thing.  At the risk of flogging a dead horse, that's only an issue for the schools in the context we're talking about here.


----------



## 2Tiggies

UKDEB said:


> Of course.  I guess what I'm saying is that I neither seek, nor legally require, a school's approval to take my child out in term time.  I understand why this is undoubtedly an unpopular stand-point from a teacher's point of view, but I feel equally as strongly about my right to decide, as a Head's desire for me to comply.  If the law changes we have a whole different argument on our hands, but as things stand, it's my choice.  People get confused between the law and this whole authorised/unauthorised absence thing.  At the risk of flogging a dead horse, that's only an issue for the schools in the context we're talking about here.



..... and I cannot argue any of the points you make here!   I always find discussions in text are interesting.  Without body language, facial expressions and tone of voice, it can be all too easy to misinterpret the message in the way it is intended to be conveyed.  I am not referring either to your post, or any others in particular here - just a general observation that I am constantly aware of on this and other similar threads (read: potentially contraversial ).  I am so pleased that this one has remained open, despite one or two "wobbly moments".


----------



## katytrott

I've really enjoyed this thread. My son started reception last Sept, so this whole debate is quite fresh and new with us!

My auntie in law is a retired head and we have had many a heated discussion with her. I can remember her quoting some figure (someone posted it on here earlier) about the huge no. of days a child is not at school as an argument against taking out in term time, but I remember thinking that was a bit strange as a lot of those were weekends when the family could not go anywhere.

My take on it is this: I remember as a child having awesome holidays with my family. Some of them were eductional, some were not - looking back, I don't think it mattered as the memories now are of the only 2 weeks in the year when my father was totally relaxed, chilled and a great laugh - a joy to be with. I will always treasure those times and do feel now, after having two kids of my own, that childhood isn't just about education. I think I have that feeling from reading too much Tom Sawyer as a kid, but also because I think we live in a society in which we are defined by how succesful we are career wise.

It really is the same now with my husband - our kids only truly see a totaly relaxed father when he is immersed in a different world, away from home. Also, I am starting to feel that our family is not going to run around our children's lives and their education. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to excuse them how ever much I want from school - but the odd few days at the end of term when they are young, to ensure my husband gets the break he deserves (I have just given up my nursing career to be with my kids), I do not have a problem with. The rest of the year will be spent running around them!

I think someone posted on here earlier about having a hunt around the dates and being flexible, meaning you can find something cheaper. I don't know about any other year as this is our first, but that has not been our experience this year. We have hunted with every possible company on every possible date during summer hols, and the price is still rediculous. That is just for flights as well, as we have parents in law villa for free. Last week, we were quoted 8 thousand pounds for 4 of us, with Virgin, in Aug, to Orlando, for flights alone!!!

Actually, hunting around different destinations (Europe) in Aug, didn't bring the price down that significantly, particularly when you price in accomadation which we don't normally have to pay. 

My main beef is with the holiday companies who wack the prices up so high. This just seems so unfair - I mean, triple the price - crazy! It never used to go up so drastically when I was a kid (according to my father!) and what with them and the education authority, we could end up with a generation of kids who miss out on special family memories and the education of being in a different culture. Very sad!!


----------



## wayneg

UKDEB said:


> My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent.  It's your call, not that of the school.



Unfortunately not kept up with this thread as I am away but just spotted this comment, exactly what we have done when we took Matt out for 2 weeks each October. Sent a letter advising them of dates he would not be there. Always been given authorized absence. Glad we have had headteachers & teachers fully backing our trips.


----------



## 2Tiggies

I saw Wayne's name on the right of the thread and thought "Oh no, he had to close it - and from all the way in the US ....."


----------



## team harris

I work in a school and have 2 DS of my own, so I see both sides of this.

Before I started working in a school, we did take DS' out of school for two weeks in October - they were then in Yrs 2 & 5. Our boys kept a diary whilst away and yes, you can argue that it is an educational trip.

Someone has said that your child can be ill and miss a few days from school - this happened to us, as our youngest DS had a herniotomy the following February, meaning he missed a total of four weeks school that year, which is over 10% of that year - not ideal in any situation.

I always thought that Yr5 was not really that important (SATs and 11+ a year away), but now seeing the changes in children that take place EVERY year, I would really think long and hard about this.

As said before too, do not ask your child's teacher for extra work, as 1). The child will not really be in any fit state to concentrate on school work and 2). Why should the teacher mark it, when it is additional work for them?

There is plenty for you to do out there where your child will learn without realising it, just don't put an educational label on it!


----------



## iluvtot

UKDEB said:


> As I've said in the past, whether an absence is registered as authorised or unauthorised matters not one jot to parents who just take their children out of school for one holiday a year.  It matters to the school as they are measured on it, and it matters (quite rightly) with respect to the parents who just don't care whether or not their kids are in school (in as much as they can then be investigated by the authorities), _but not to the likes of people posting here_.  My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent.  It's your call, not that of the school.  They can posturise all they like (and some Heads really play that card to the max), but they have no jurisdiction.  Neither does the LEA with regards to those who have legitimate reasons for taking their children out of school in term time.  If you get a "fine" letter, either ignore it or challenge it.  Unless your child plays truant, or you willfully refuse to send them to school having entered them into the system, you're doing nothing wrong.  I've no doubt it must be infuriating to teachers and Head Teachers, but that's no reason to feel intimidated.



I so agree Debbie I have written to the school each time, explaining the situation, and giving our dates. I have received the 'fine' letter, and have always challenged it. It makes me laugh because after having told them our dates, do they expect me to say "sorry, OK we won't go" Yeh, right!!
I always feel it is better to be honest. I have friends who say they would NEVER take their children out for a holiday; but then think it's ok to take the odd Friday/Monday when they are away for a weekend, or if the kids haven't got an inset day, and they want to get away early before the school hols begin. They always phone the kids in sick/doctors/dentist app; but hey! That's ok! All those odd days add up aswell!
Another thing, (I know this is a bit off topic), but has anyone else with more than 2 children noticed the huge hike in prices an extra(or more) child makes?
We looked at going to Europe, but to be honest, the difference in prices, compared to going to Florida, didn't make it worth the compromise.

Jules x


----------



## joolz1910

wayneg said:


> Unfortunately not kept up with this thread as I am away but just spotted this comment, exactly what we have done when we took Matt out for 2 weeks each October. Sent a letter advising them of dates he would not be there. Always been given authorized absence. Glad we have had headteachers & teachers fully backing our trips.




Yes, this is what I did too. I wrote to my children's Headteacher and told her that my two eldest children would be on holiday and gave her the dates. It was a matter of courtesy, (especially as DD2 was only 4 at the time) and I didn't really mind whether it was authorised or not. I got the standard 'we don't really approve of this' letter but the absences were authorised. 

As I've said before, a week or so in one academic year is not going to ruin a child's life chances. Life is too short to worry about things like this.


----------



## pandv_2000

iluvtot said:


> I so agree Debbie I have written to the school each time, explaining the situation, and giving our dates. I have received the 'fine' letter, and have always challenged it. It makes me laugh because after having told them our dates, do they expect me to say "sorry, OK we won't go" Yeh, right!!
> I always feel it is better to be honest. I have friends who say they would NEVER take their children out for a holiday; but then think it's ok to take the odd Friday/Monday when they are away for a weekend, or if the kids haven't got an inset day, and they want to get away early before the school hols begin. They always phone the kids in sick/doctors/dentist app; but hey! That's ok! All those odd days add up aswell!
> Another thing, (I know this is a bit off topic), but has anyone else with more than 2 children noticed the huge hike in prices an extra(or more) child makes?
> We looked at going to Europe, but to be honest, the difference in prices, compared to going to Florida, didn't make it worth the compromise.
> 
> Jules x



Argh don't tell me that - with baby number 2 on the way I don't want to know hols will be ridiculously more expensive!


----------



## joolz1910

pandv_2000 said:


> Argh don't tell me that - with baby number 2 on the way I don't want to know hols will be ridiculously more expensive!



Try having 3 kids - no standard hotel accommodation for us, just this message:

_Unfortunately this hotel does not have individual rooms big enough to accommodate your whole party._

 A studio (sleeps 4) is £1000 cheaper than a 2 bed.


----------



## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> Try having 3 kids - no standard hotel accommodation for us, just this message:
> 
> _Unfortunately this hotel does not have individual rooms big enough to accommodate your whole party._
> 
> A studio (sleeps 4) is £1000 cheaper than a 2 bed.



I feel your frustration - similar challenge on the other end of the spectrum: Single mum with one child.  Child pays a full fare paying adult price on everything!  Last year's Disney package was cheaper to take her as an adult than to pay the child price and single occupancy supplements   I understand why they do it but really ...... And yes, a few years ago I did excitedly flip through VH new brochure which boasted single parent hotels with no supplements.  Well they were far from my choice of accommodation preferences, way out of the way, said you had to have a car and ,.... they assumed you had at least 2 or 3 kids!  I guess nobody can cater for absolutely everyone.


----------



## melly

team harris said:


> As said before too, do not ask your child's teacher for extra work, as 1). The child will not really be in any fit state to concentrate on school work and 2). Why should the teacher mark it, when it is additional work for them?
> )



because its their job to. It also has not created any extra work for the teacher since they are only marking what they would anyway just aweek or so later. In addiction i fail to see the big deal in marking an 8yr olds simple maths. Its not as if we are talking about evaluating a pHD thesis


----------



## Pegasus928

melly said:


> because its their job to. It also has not created any extra work for the teacher since they are only marking what they would anyway just aweek or so later. In addiction i fail to see the big deal in marking an 8yr olds simple maths. Its not as if we are talking about evaluating a pHD thesis


 
Have you never watched 'Are You Smarter Than A 10 Year Old'


----------



## joolz1910

melly said:


> because its their job to. It also has not created any extra work for the teacher since they are only marking what they would anyway just aweek or so later. In addiction i fail to see the big deal in marking an 8yr olds simple maths. Its not as if we are talking about evaluating a pHD thesis



It must be a long time since you were at school. Have you seen the Maths 8 year old kids do?

It's not my job to provide individual tuition for a child if the parents take them on holiday, and unfortunately that's what some parents expect. Like you say, it's not a huge deal to hand out a few simple worksheets but most teaching is far more complicated than that. There is group work, practical work, ongoing assessment, licensed assessment software, performance-based assessment etc - none of these would be easy to complete at home or individually.


----------



## UKDEB

I'm sure most parents neither want nor expect teachers to set and mark extra-curricular work.  Many years ago this is precisely what was suggested by the education establishment, though, and I'd say such requests are driven by a desire to appear responsible in the face of growing disapproval.


----------



## joolz1910

UKDEB said:


> I'm sure most parents neither want nor expect teachers to set and mark extra-curricular work.  Many years ago this is precisely what was suggested by the education establishment, though, and I'd say such requests are driven by a desire to appear responsible in the face of growing disapproval.



I agree. I would never ask my children's teachers to set them extra work, neither would I want them to be doing Maths on holiday.


----------



## melly

joolz1910 said:


> It must be a long time since you were at school. Have you seen the Maths 8 year old kids do?
> 
> It's not my job to provide individual tuition for a child if the parents take them on holiday, and unfortunately that's what some parents expect. Like you say, it's not a huge deal to hand out a few simple worksheets but most teaching is far more complicated than that. There is group work, practical work, ongoing assessment, licensed assessment software, performance-based assessment etc - none of these would be easy to complete at home or individually.



My eldest is 9. Seen his maths it isn't that hard for an adult to see if its right or wrong. 

As for the individual tuition I'm not sure that many parents would want that. Simply the work that can be taught by a parent could be handed over with ease. Marking this is simply marking the same work a week later and requires no more total work.

Another myth that appears to be perpetuated by teachers is that they have a huge task in preparing additional material for them. Its as if because my child goes on holiday they now have to create a whole new sylabus for him including teaching him schrodingers wave equation. Back on planet earth this just isn't true and all he needs is reprints of the work he has missed.

People may think I'm having a swipe at teachers but I'm not. I genuinely think that although taking you kid on holiday has at least some negative effect, this effect is grossly over-exaggerated as too is the inconvenience to the teacher. At the same time the positive benefit of the holiday is under estimated


----------



## joolz1910

melly said:


> I genuinely think that although taking you kid on holiday has at least some negative effect, this effect is grossly over-exaggerated as too is the inconvenience to the teacher. At the same time the positive benefit of the holiday is under estimated



Couldn't agree more.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

melly said:


> Another myth that appears to be perpetuated by teachers is that they have a huge task in preparing additional material for them. Its as if because my child goes on holiday they now have to create a whole new sylabus for him including teaching him schrodingers wave equation. Back on planet earth this just isn't true and all he needs is reprints of the work he has missed.



This is quite insulting, i'm afraid to say. If teaching was as easy as photocopying worksheets out of a book, then let's forget teacher training, forget the professional status and standing, forget the degree.... Also, it's not as easy to just pick it up weeks later, plus that child MAY have missed out on new concepts that also need to be caught up on - this is harder than it seems as the teacher is now trying to catch your child up, and the rest of the class are not being taught as quickly as they would have been. 

The work most teachers will set for children who go on holiday will be work which requires no additional knowledge and work that can be completed without any input from the teacher or parent, hence why "you" see a page of sums. This is not the reality of a well taught class and learning experience. 

If I were able to take my child out of class and take him to Disney, I would not be doing school work with him - when on a Disney Holiday would you find the time?

In relation to Deb's earlier comment - and I'm a Headteacher - it is not a right to take your child out of school. If you take your child out of school without the HT's permission, it is illegal and, whilst unlikely, you could be risking prosecution. I approve holidays as long as attendance is good and it is not likely to affect the educational progress of the child. I have gotten my hand slapped by the LEA for doing this when the attendance is below 95%!!! I have also prosecuted (not me personally you know) one family for persistently saying "I couldn't do anything". So, please respect the school and HT by requesting permission.

Also, in relation to an earlier posting: School's don't have to listen to the LEA. School's "buy-in" to all LEA services, including adviser, legal, attendance, payroll etc. but they don't have to. A school's Governing Body is responsible for the policy in school. 

You should see school as a job - would you just walk out on your job for two weeks without permission. No you wouldn't. 

Sorry for garbling.


----------



## scojos

mickeyforpresident said:


> You should see school as a job - would you just walk out on your job for two weeks without permission. No you wouldn't.
> 
> .



i agree with everything you said, i however wouldnt have termed it as calmly as you, thats why you are a head and me a lowly teacher, not savoir vivre!!

there have many arguments on here, primary is more important than 2ndry, exams and attendance, yes, it has been proved that gcse grades and attendance is directly linked, it has also been proved that learning is not all done in the classroom, and that a holiday can educate and develop skills too.

my question would be - for how many is a trip to wdw a learning curve? did you teach your kids new things? my kids learnt to say hello and thankyou at every country in WS, ok, not massive, but a gesture, we taught them about the food s they were eatiing., and were v impressed by chefs (esp at boma) who explained to them the cultural heritage of the food they ate) they learnt loads of things at Ak... yes, they also rode buzz and shot mommy, its about balance.
i would not send printed sheets home for an absent student to complete during a holiday becuase i doubt they would be completed, thats my prof experience, and whilst im sure someone will state their child would do work sent home, in the schools i have taught in, this has not been the case.
tracy


----------



## joolz1910

mickeyforpresident said:


> The work most teachers will set for children who go on holiday will be work which requires no additional knowledge and work that can be completed without any input from the teacher or parent, hence why "you" see a page of sums. This is not the reality of a well taught class and learning experience.
> 
> 
> 
> .



This was the point I tried to make - but you make it more eloquently.

Most parents are completely reasonable (thank goodness) and only want a few 'worksheets'. It's the ones who expect an individually tailored study pack and 'catch-up' sessions when they return - that's not part of my job.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

joolz1910 said:


> I agree. I would never ask my children's teachers to set them extra work, neither would I want them to be doing Maths on holiday.



Whenever any of my children is absent I just make a little foldder with a copy of each worksheet, extension sheet, homework, learning sheet or office notes inside. I have photocopied it anyway so it is no trouble really. I do this should they be absent through illness, holiday or Monday-itis. But what is interesting is the fact that although I offer to mark it (cannot insist obviously), it rarely comes back. Maybe 1 out of 10. 

So I guess that is why I don't mind if conscientious parents take their children out of school. Those children will keep up if the parents are prepared to put the effort in with them.

My daughter was absent for two and a half weeks through illness before Christmas. I worked for an hour or so each night with her and it really helped her keep up. Once she went back we kept up the extra hour until I was happy. Even though she missed those weeks her standardised scores have really improved this year. Going on holiday would have been easier as her health wouldn't be holding her back.


----------



## joolz1910

howlongtillsummer? said:


> So I guess that is why I don't mind if conscientious parents take their children out of school. Those children will keep up if the parents are prepared to put the effort in with them.
> 
> .



I have 3 children (all different key stages) - I would have to be a super-mum.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Well of course you are. 

OT - Look at my 1000 posts YAY!!


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> I have 3 children (all different key stages) - I would have to be a super-mum.



me too honey - unfortunately as soon as teachers know you teach they do expect you to be super mom, i do what i can to help all of my kids, fortunately ds 12 is G&T in several subjects, ds 10 is a different issue he has HFASD, and so behavioural issues are as much a problem as accademic ones...
dd7 is starting to pick up on his asd tendancies, she is v v bright (much more than the eldest in a "non accademi" way, have you watched outnumbered?? thats like my house
but i cant do everything for them, so joolz im with you on this one


----------



## joolz1910

howlongtillsummer? said:


> Well of course you are.
> 
> OT - Look at my 1000 posts YAY!!



Oh yes, I'd forgotten that I am a super-mom. Silly me.
Congrats on the 1000 posts!



scojos said:


> me too honey - unfortunately as soon as teachers know you teach they do expect you to be super mom, i do what i can to help all of my kids, fortunately ds 12 is G&T in several subjects, ds 10 is a different issue he has HFASD, and so behavioural issues are as much a problem as accademic ones...
> dd7 is starting to pick up on his asd tendancies, she is v v bright (much more than the eldest in a "non accademi" way, have you watched outnumbered?? thats like my house
> but i cant do everything for them, so joolz im with you on this one



Yup, sounds familiar.
I think I have parent-guilt and teacher-guilt, basically I 'could do better'.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

howlongtillsummer? said:


> Well of course you are.
> 
> OT - Look at my 1000 posts YAY!!



Congratulations!!


----------



## mickeyforpresident

howlongtillsummer? said:


> Whenever any of my children is absent I just make a little foldder with a copy of each worksheet, extension sheet, homework, learning sheet or office notes inside. I have photocopied it anyway so it is no trouble really. I do this should they be absent through illness, holiday or Monday-itis. But what is interesting is the fact that although I offer to mark it (cannot insist obviously), it rarely comes back. Maybe 1 out of 10.



This is a really interesting idea! Until I read the return rate that it! At least you are trying!!! Are you Primary?

Scojos - I might want to tap into some of your expertise. We have a HFASD child (in Year 2) who we are really struggling with..... 

He he - we did all the language stuff around WS too!!!


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Yes I teach P6. At least I know I have done my best, my class will sit transfer tests in autumn which determines their choice of secondary school. But I have always made the packs even when I taught P1s. I had a better return rate for those


----------



## UKDEB

mickeyforpresident said:


> In relation to Deb's earlier comment - and I'm a Headteacher - it is not a right to take your child out of school. If you take your child out of school without the HT's permission, it is illegal and, whilst unlikely, you could be risking prosecution.


Unsurprisingly, the whole subject is complex, but in simple terms it isn't illegal for me to take my child out of school for legitimate reasons. There's a not-so-subtle difference between that and claiming I have a right to do so (which are your words, not mine).   If I ask my Head for permission to take my child out for a holiday and such permission is declined, the absence _should_ be recorded as unauthorised, but as I've already mentioned, this isn't in the interests of the school, so many will choose to record it as authorised.  Of course, if it is recorded as unauthorised, I run the risk of my child losing their place at that school, but there would need to be other extenuating circumstances for such an action to be enforceable.  Simply taking my child out of school for a holiday because my husband and I can not get time off in school holidays (which was our reality for many years), would not be sufficient justification for a school to exclude my child. nor for an LEA to bring a prosecution.


----------



## janiebubble

I'm sticking my nose in here, probably unwanted/unnecessary ... I teach in a sixth form college, and I would just point out that the situation is different - a holiday is never counted as an authorised absence, we don't HAVE to educate your child (so we could exclude - although it is unlikely) and I know this may sound incredibly obvious, but the vast amount of testing (which does take place twice a year - january and summer) CANNOT be moved.  You wouldn't believe the fact I've had conversations with parents who've said 'this was the only time we could take our holiday can't you move the exam???' when the child was due to take an A level or equivalent (or who have let their child MISS an A level exam to attend a football match!!!)


----------



## UKDEB

mickeyforpresident said:


> You should see school as a job - would you just walk out on your job for two weeks without permission. No you wouldn't.


You know, I can _totally_ understand that, as a teacher, you would feel this way.  I've absolutely _no doubt_ that if I were a teacher, I would think that way, too.  But please understand that I have an entirely different point of view.  For me, school is a part of my child's life; a _big_ part of my child's life (and, thus, mine, too), but our lives do not revolve around it in the way that teachers imagine it does/should.  I have huge issues with our education system - far too involved for this thread - and other separate issues with schools themselves.  As a former co-opted governor, I felt I brought a balance to the board I served on.  The Head Teacher was a truly exceptional individual - committed and passionate, but unbelievably blinkered in some respects.  She knew I admired and respected her and would never have dreamed of undermining her authority.  In turn, I knew she valued the fact that I wasn't afraid to challenge and to think laterally.

All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job.  I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, _the night before._  This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us.  We have school _and_ jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same.  That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble.  I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.


----------



## UKDEB

janiebubble said:


> You wouldn't believe the fact I've had conversations with parents who've said 'this was the only time we could take our holiday can't you move the exam???' when the child was due to take an A level or equivalent (or who have let their child MISS an A level exam to attend a football match!!!)


Well, isn't this precisely the problem?   As a society, we're adopting blanket policies to deal with the lowest common denominator.  I refuse to accept that I have to be bound by others' lack of intelligence.


----------



## 2Tiggies

UKDEB said:


> Well, isn't this precisely the problem?   As a society, we're adopting blanket policies to deal with the lowest common denominator.  I refuse to accept that I have to be bound by others' lack of intelligence.



Well, isn't this precisely the problem?   As a society, we're adopting blanket policies to deal with the lowest common denominator.  [/QUOTE]

And that, dear friends, forms the basis of the debate on this thread!  This is just another example in our modern society where rules and regulations are imposed generally, but leave no room for flexibility.  Let's face it, black and white may be pretty clear, but individuals you cannot confine everyone's circumstances and lives to fit the little boxes we are supposed to live in.  Somewhere in all this legislation there should surely be allowances made for those who do not have "the appropriate level of authority to make certain decisions" to, at the very least, be permitted to apply basic common sense when assessing a situation.  Part of the problem is that those who make these rules are not the ones who deal with the people on a daily basis.


----------



## 2Tiggies

UKDEB said:


> All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job.  I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, _the night before._  This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us.  We have school _and_ jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same.  That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble.  I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.



Now there is something I can relate to - which I commonly refer to as our "Eleventh Hour Communications".  After a full day at work, I have to go and collect my child and usually there is some activity/sport on.  So after 8 pm when I have checked and gone over her homework with her, fed her, made sure she has had her bath and all the other daily tasks required, it is a somewhat inconvenient time to be presented with a letter requesting something which requires a minimum of a day's planning. 



janiebubble said:


> we don't HAVE to educate your child


 
But we HAVE to make sure our children are at school?


----------



## joolz1910

UKDEB said:


> All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job.  I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, _the night before._  This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us.  We have school _and_ jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same.  That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble.  I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.



I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family. 

Some teachers are parents too!


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family.
> 
> Some teachers are parents too!



hear hear!!


----------



## scojos

mickeyforpresident said:


> This is a really interesting idea! Until I read the return rate that it! At least you are trying!!! Are you Primary?
> 
> Scojos - I might want to tap into some of your expertise. We have a HFASD child (in Year 2) who we are really struggling with.....
> 
> He he - we did all the language stuff around WS too!!!



if i can help in anyway with your asd student id be honoured, i taught in a school with an asd "attachment" so whilst not an expert, having josh has made me very aware
you might want to post a general thread, several of us on here have asd kids - there is also the disabiliites thread which is a hive of info where  asd is concerned (obviously wdw themed, but the info could be useful in the class too...
HTH
tracy


----------



## melly

joolz1910 said:


> I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family.
> 
> Some teachers are parents too!



The bubble that people refer to isn't about whether you have a family or not, its about if you've experienced the big wide working world outside of school. For so many teachers they have spent their entire life at school. It starts at nursery then infant school. Then primary school. Then high school. Then 6th form. Then uni. And when it comes to work [you guessed it] back to school.

For this reason it is a bubble and many many teacher have no grasp of things external to that something I've seen with numerous teachers I know


----------



## luke

Do you really think teachers have no experience of 'the real world'?
Although that 'career arch' that youve pointed out does fit me, plenty of teachers joined the profession from other careers.

Also how does that not give you experience of 'the real world'? Sure it gives you a lack of understanding of other jobs, but we don't live in the school you know, it's not Hogwarts


----------



## scojos

luke said:


> Do you really think teachers have no experience of 'the real world'?
> , but we don't live in the school you know, it's not Hogwarts



god, i wish it was

i myself had a career outside of school, i trained in nutrition/catering and worked in hotels (and i challenge anyone to find a harder job, both physically and mentally) and then retrained to teach following the arrival of my children (i actually recived a credit card bill for £100 which i couldnt pay OMG if my bills were that small now
i totally agree that some teachers have done that school-uni-school thing but in general they are the worst teachers and kids do pick up on this, the ability to manage 30 unruly kids is alot easier when you have managed a drunken stag do - trust me
life skills make teachers human, and i am glad that i have a life outside of the classroom.
are we not drifting off subject again?


----------



## 2Tiggies

luke said:


> Also how does that not give you experience of 'the real world'? Sure it gives you a lack of understanding of other jobs, but we don't live in the school you know, it's not Hogwarts



WHAT????!!! You mean you actually live in a house?   In a street, where other people live too?


----------



## 2Tiggies

scojos said:


> are we not drifting off subject again?



It seems so.  Should we get back on track and keep this open?  At least we are getting to know each other pretty well on here!


----------



## scojos

2Tiggies said:


> It seems so.  Should we get back on track and keep this open?  At least we are getting to know each other pretty well on here!



this is true, hey id rather chat with you teachers about disney than watch dr who


----------



## janiebubble

2Tiggies said:


> Now there is something I can relate to - which I commonly refer to as our "Eleventh Hour Communications".  After a full day at work, I have to go and collect my child and usually there is some activity/sport on.  So after 8 pm when I have checked and gone over her homework with her, fed her, made sure she has had her bath and all the other daily tasks required, it is a somewhat inconvenient time to be presented with a letter requesting something which requires a minimum of a day's planning.
> 
> 
> 
> But we HAVE to make sure our children are at school?



no I think you missed my point, I teach at a sixth form college, and at present once your child is 16 they don't HAVE to be in education, so just in the same way we don't HAVE to educate them.  It is post compulsory education ... all I was trying to say was be careful if your children reach 16, at this age you may find that a) there are more 'unmovable' dates such as national exams, and b) because attendance isn't compulsory you may find your child either disciplined/asked to attend holiday catch up (in our college's case) or if the absences were excessive - ultimately excluded.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

UKDEB said:


> I have huge issues with our education system - far too involved for this thread - and other separate issues with schools themselves.  QUOTE]
> 
> I think you'll find that most teachers do too!!


----------



## mickeyforpresident

UKDEB said:


> I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.



I don't believe you have been condescending, but have just put your point across.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

UKDEB said:


> Unsurprisingly, the whole subject is complex, but in simple terms it isn't illegal for me to take my child out of school for legitimate reasons. There's a not-so-subtle difference between that and claiming I have a right to do so (which are your words, not mine).   If I ask my Head for permission to take my child out for a holiday and such permission is declined, the absence _should_ be recorded as unauthorised, but as I've already mentioned, this isn't in the interests of the school, so many will choose to record it as authorised.  Of course, if it is recorded as unauthorised, I run the risk of my child losing their place at that school, but there would need to be other extenuating circumstances for such an action to be enforceable.  Simply taking my child out of school for a holiday because my husband and I can not get time off in school holidays (which was our reality for many years), would not be sufficient justification for a school to exclude my child. nor for an LEA to bring a prosecution.



You are both right and wrong. You do not have a right (yes, my words) to take your child out of school. You can of course for legitimate reasons (e.g medical appts). Term Time Holidays are not a right and should be marked as unauthorised. You clock up "x" (in my authority it's 12 days - so more than two weeks) the school can issue a penalty notice. You could also lose your child's place and I don't know of any extenuating circumstances if it were a holiday you took when you weren't given permission to do so. This wouldn't be a exclusion. You would have failed to bring your child into school and therefore lost the place. Probably over subscribed schools would be able to do this. 

Also, persistent unuthorised absence, for example, the failure to bring your child to school could (but a VERY BIG could) lead you to prosecution which could (again a VERY BIG COULD) lead the parents to being imprisonned. 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm just outlining the facts (from my point of view / professional standing). I don't agree with it fully.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

joolz1910 said:


> I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family.
> 
> Some teachers are parents too!



Agreed! My son's school is so disorganised when it comes to costumes etc. This is partly why I'm a little too organised with letters and requests coming from my school!


----------



## mickeyforpresident

2Tiggies said:


> WHAT????!!! You mean you actually live in a house?   In a street, where other people live too?



I feel like I live at school!


----------



## UKDEB

mickeyforpresident said:


> You are both right and wrong. You do not have a right (yes, my words) to take your child out of school.


Precisely what I said - I don't have a right (but that doesn't make it illegal).



mickeyforpresident said:


> You can of course for legitimate reasons (e.g medical appts).


Again, precisely what I said.



mickeyforpresident said:


> Term Time Holidays are not a right and should be marked as unauthorised.


Again, what I said. 



mickeyforpresident said:


> You clock up "x" (in my authority it's 12 days - so more than two weeks) the school can issue a penalty notice. You could also lose your child's place


And again.



mickeyforpresident said:


> I don't know of any extenuating circumstances if it were a holiday you took when you weren't given permission to do so.  This wouldn't be a exclusion. You would have failed to bring your child into school and therefore lost the place. Probably over subscribed schools would be able to do this.


Well, this is one area where I've clearly misunderstood the language.  Losing your place does not equate to your child being excluded from the school in question?  My point is that any attempt to exclude my child, or to fine me as a parent, would fail if my only "crime" was to take my child out of school for an annual holiday, particularly if the circumstances of our employment prevented my husband and me from taking time off during school holidays.



mickeyforpresident said:


> Also, persistent unuthorised absence, for example, the failure to bring your child to school could (but a VERY BIG could) lead you to prosecution which could (again a VERY BIG COULD) lead the parents to being imprisonned.


This is what I meant by extenuating circumstances.  There would have to be more to it than simply taking a child out of school for an annual family holiday.



mickeyforpresident said:


> Please don't get me wrong, I'm just outlining the facts (from my point of view / professional standing). I don't agree with it fully.


Ditto. 

You're actually saying exactly what I did, but with a different spin (because we're coming at it from different standpoints).


----------



## katytrott

melly said:


> The bubble that people refer to isn't about whether you have a family or not, its about if you've experienced the big wide working world outside of school. For so many teachers they have spent their entire life at school. It starts at nursery then infant school. Then primary school. Then high school. Then 6th form. Then uni. And when it comes to work [you guessed it] back to school.
> 
> For this reason it is a bubble and many many teacher have no grasp of things external to that something I've seen with numerous teachers I know



This describes my old best friend from my school days. Primary, middle, secondary and 6th form all within a mile radius of each other that included her home. Teacher training then at the next town so she could stay living with her parents, and now living just down the road from her parents and working as a primary teacher in the school next to the one we attended!  

Our friendship has really diminished over the years - mainly because I feel we have absolutely diddlysquat in common with each other since we were 11. It is hard to describe what it is like chatting to someone who has little to no concept or opinion on anything like ethics/politics/world affairs etc, etc. Her world revolves around school in the day and going out to local pubs/bars in the evening. I sometimes imagine her teaching my kids and shudder!

I am sure officially you don't need "life experience" to be a teacher, obvioulsy all you need to know is how to teach. However - a number of years ago, BC (Before Children), I considered changing my path as a District Nurse, slightly, into training to be a Health Visitor. I got as far as being interviewed for a space on the course, but pulled out, after deciding that I was a woman without children. I was told by the Uni/Health Trust that it didn't matter as we would be using "evidenced based practice", and learn/teach up to date research - but it just didn't sit right with me teaching mums how to deal with newborns/toddlers when I had no experience of what it is really like. Now, I feel I could be a genuine supportive and empathetic Health Visitor - really what most mums want.

Sorry, have just realised just how far off topic my post is - but as I spent a fair bit time writing it, I'm posting it!!


----------



## katytrott

Don't know if anyone else has noticed - this thread must take the award as the thread with the least amont of typos, errors and lazy writing!

Maybe the teachers here are practicing what they preach and the non teachers are working hard to avoid a low grade


----------



## 2Tiggies

katytrott said:


> Don't know if anyone else has noticed - this thread must take the award as the thread with the least *amont* of typos, errors and lazy writing!
> 
> Maybe the teachers here are practicing what they preach and the non teachers are working hard to avoid a low grade



  Quick - edit your text and I'll edit mine to delete the above quote from your post.


----------



## katytrott

2Tiggies said:


> Quick - edit your text and I'll edit mine to delete the above quote from your post.





Well done - you spotted the deliberate mistake

I can't believe I did that - I'm normally so thorough


----------



## wishspirit

UKDEB said:


> You know, I can _totally_ understand that, as a teacher, you would feel this way.  I've absolutely _no doubt_ that if I were a teacher, I would think that way, too.  But please understand that I have an entirely different point of view.  For me, school is a part of my child's life; a _big_ part of my child's life (and, thus, mine, too), but our lives do not revolve around it in the way that teachers imagine it does/should.  I have huge issues with our education system - far too involved for this thread - and other separate issues with schools themselves.  As a former co-opted governor, I felt I brought a balance to the board I served on.  The Head Teacher was a truly exceptional individual - committed and passionate, but unbelievably blinkered in some respects.  She knew I admired and respected her and would never have dreamed of undermining her authority.  In turn, I knew she valued the fact that I wasn't afraid to challenge and to think laterally.
> 
> All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job.  I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, _the night before._  This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us.  We have school _and_ jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same.  That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble.  I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.



I think you are tarring all teachers with a rather mucky brush here. Some teachers are disorganised, as probably some of your co-workers are, but they are human beings doing a tough job too. They often have homes and families at the end of the day just the same as you. Everyone gets a little caught up in their work bubble if they are passionate about their jobs, like most teachers are. If a request gets sent too late, go in the next day and explain how you'd of loved to have provided it, but it did arrive too late. 

I think we should cut teachers a bit of slack, they do an excellent job overall!



melly said:


> The bubble that people refer to isn't about whether you have a family or not, its about if you've experienced the big wide working world outside of school. For so many teachers they have spent their entire life at school. It starts at nursery then infant school. Then primary school. Then high school. Then 6th form. Then uni. And when it comes to work [you guessed it] back to school.
> 
> For this reason it is a bubble and many many teacher have no grasp of things external to that something I've seen with numerous teachers I know



See, I find this a little upsetting. I am a university student applying for Primary PGCE's (and it is NOT a walk in! They aren't taking on anyone without significant work in schools as well as something else interesting to their name) and the reason why I want to jump back into being at a school is because I love kids! I have worked throughout my time at University (all be it part time), and I think I have a grasp of what parents have to deal with, as well as teachers.

I think the 'bubble' you guys are referring to is passion. They are passionate about what they do (otherwise all the other crud they have to deal with just wouldn't be worth it). Yes it can make anyone a little insular, but teachers have a lot to juggle in their working day.



scojos said:


> god, i wish it was
> 
> i myself had a career outside of school, i trained in nutrition/catering and worked in hotels (and i challenge anyone to find a harder job, both physically and mentally) and then retrained to teach following the arrival of my children (i actually recived a credit card bill for £100 which i couldnt pay OMG if my bills were that small now
> *i totally agree that some teachers have done that school-uni-school thing but in general they are the worst teachers and kids do pick up on this, the ability to manage 30 unruly kids is alot easier when you have managed a drunken stag do - trust me*
> life skills make teachers human, and i am glad that i have a life outside of the classroom.
> are we not drifting off subject again?



I know you are trying to be jovial here, but I really don't think (or maybe want to believe) that's true. I understand that great teaching comes with experience, and NQT's can be a little bit shaky on their feet when it comes to dealing with a class, however it is only by trying can these things be achieved. Many people who are now coming out of PGCE's have more than just a degree to their name. I, for instance, have run a playscheme for children with special needs, and been working there for the last 3 years, and 2 years before that as a volunteer. I have a great deal of experience in behaviour management and communication, as well as really knowing where my passion is!

I get as annoyed as you when I hear people I am at uni with saying they are thinking of becoming teachers 'because they can't think of anything better to do'. Luckily (or unluckily for me as it is making my task a lot harder) PGCE's aren't letting those people in any more, a lot of people are having to spend a year as teaching assistants or volunteering in a school 3 days a week to even get on to these courses. I am willing to do whatever it takes to be a teacher, even if it does mean taking a few years out of training to get there.

Sorry, I just had to add my piece. Please cut teachers a bit of slack! Especially the newly qualified!


----------



## scojos

wishspirit said:


> Sorry, I just had to add my piece. Please cut teachers a bit of slack! Especially the newly qualified!



I have taught with some excellent NQTs, at my previous school, which has just been ofsteded , the only outstanding came from an NQT, they are generally more willing to try new things, have no pre conceived ideas of what is good or bad and will therefore try anything
when i first qualified (about 6 years ago now), i was 30, so "been there done that" had worked in industry for about 9 years, and had 3 kids of my own (inc a new born baby... i too worked liked a trojan to qualify!)
i walked into my HOD and said "that lesson didnt work".  she looked at me and said "why?, the class was quiet and calm, you didnt come and get me so no issues, why didnt it work?"
i dropped my head and said "because they didnt understand what i was trying to teach, it was a very simple lesson, that a-b-c-d etc in an industrial sense, but they didnt "get" it.
she looked at me and said "you ve just become an outstanding teacher, if you can see your lesson from the angle of the class and undertstnad they didnt get it and why, you ll make an amazing teacher
this comment has stuck with me for a very long time, and now i am the "old wise one", i tell this to my GTPs.
goodluck training, i for one am glad that unis are looking for some "life" in new teachers
tracy


----------



## joolz1910

wishspirit said:


> Sorry, I just had to add my piece. Please cut teachers a bit of slack! Especially the newly qualified!




I've been teaching for 17 years (yes I was one of those people who never left education, I am 'bubble woman') and I have seen it all! It doesn't matter one jot whether you have '_life/work experience_', '_25 years in teaching_' or it's your '_NQT year_' - it's about whether you can communicate your passion for your subject. It also helps if you like kids.


----------



## joolz1910

katytrott said:


> This describes my old best friend from my school days. Primary, middle, secondary and 6th form all within a mile radius of each other that included her home. Teacher training then at the next town so she could stay living with her parents, and now living just down the road from her parents and working as a primary teacher in the school next to the one we attended!
> 
> *Our friendship has really diminished over the years* - mainly because I feel we have absolutely diddlysquat in common with each other since we were 11. It is hard to describe what it is like chatting to someone who has little to no concept or opinion on anything like ethics/politics/world affairs etc, etc. Her world revolves around school in the day and going out to local pubs/bars in the evening. I sometimes imagine her teaching my kids and shudder!



No kidding?


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> I've been teaching for 17 years (yes I was one of those people who never left education, I am 'bubble woman') and I have seen it all! It doesn't matter one jot whether you have '_life/work experience_', '_25 years in teaching_' or it's your '_NQT year_' - it's about whether you can communicate your passion for your subject. It also helps if you like kids.



are you following me around???


----------



## joolz1910

scojos said:


> are you following me around???



I sure am.


----------



## crabbie1

dont want to start another debate or upset anyone but I am taking my daughter out of school for the ten days(not done this before) and am worried incase our plane is delayed etc or my daughter is genuinly ill when she comes back.Would I get into trouble,would she be marked absent? Obviously she is only young(7) but dont want to get into trouble. Thanks for any advice


----------



## joolz1910

crabbie1 said:


> dont want to start another debate or upset anyone but I am taking my daughter out of school for the ten days(not done this before) and am worried incase our plane is delayed etc or my daughter is genuinly ill when she comes back.Would I get into trouble,would she be marked absent? Obviously she is only young(7) but dont want to get into trouble. Thanks for any advice



I wouldn't worry about it. Just let the school know if your plane was delayed or if she is ill.


----------



## scojos

crabbie1 said:


> dont want to start another debate or upset anyone but I am taking my daughter out of school for the ten days(not done this before) and am worried incase our plane is delayed etc or my daughter is genuinly ill when she comes back.Would I get into trouble,would she be marked absent? Obviously she is only young(7) but dont want to get into trouble. Thanks for any advice



before i was a teacher we took the kids out of school for a few days, but didnt facture on jetlag, and boy do we get it bad in our house, instead of 2 days, they missed a week, the only thing the head said to me was the next time i had a week off for disney, could i send them back with an "off switch" as they hadnt shut up
pooh happens, most people understand


----------



## UKDEB

Oops!  Often with discussion forums, ones meanings get muddled.  I wasn't suggesting that living inside the school "bubble" makes teachers bad at teaching, but it can seem (to those of us looking in from the outside) that life totally revolves around school.  Even that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, provided those inside the system can truly comprehend that the rest of us are unlikely to share that all-consuming view.  

In all professions you'll get the gamut of competencies, from the truly awful to the exceptional.  I was often embarrassed and frustrated by the behaviour of some of my colleagues.  Others I could only aspire to emulate.  I do think it's sad that the old adage that "all teachers are teachers of English" no longer holds true.  What happened to capitalisation, grammar, punctuation, syntax...?  The system definitely failed my girls in that respect and I was forced to teach them myself.


----------



## joolz1910

UKDEB said:


> I do think it's sad that the old adage that "all teachers are teachers of English" no longer holds true.  What happened to capitalisation, grammar, punctuation, syntax...?  The system definitely failed my girls in that respect and I was forced to teach them myself.



A provocative comment...


----------



## UKDEB

joolz1910 said:


> A provocative comment...


Not intentionally provocative; just observational.  And I do feel genuinely sad about it.


----------



## joolz1910

UKDEB said:


> Not intentionally provocative; just observational.  And I do feel genuinely sad about it.




I had a conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago about accurate English. I had corrected one of his reports (I have to do this) and he accused me of being a pedant. He had confused practice/practise and was genuinely annoyed that I had highlighted it. He has been teaching for about 25 years.


----------



## mickeyforpresident

joolz1910 said:


> I had a conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago about accurate English. I had corrected one of his reports (I have to do this) and he accused me of being a pedant. He had confused practice/practise and was genuinely annoyed that I had highlighted it. He has been teaching for about 25 years.



Try reading 300 annual reports with practice/practise completely wrong!!!! You are not being pedantic at all - teachers should be able to write proper like.

Deb - it is shocking how bad English is in teachers these days. I have my own way in interview of knowing if they can write themselves - their use of possessive apostrophes are astonishingly bad as is their/there/they're.


----------



## scojos

mickeyforpresident said:


> Try reading 300 annual reports with practice/practise completely wrong!!!! You are not being pedantic at all - teachers should be able to write proper like.
> 
> Deb - it is shocking how bad English is in teachers these days. I have my own way in interview of knowing if they can write themselves - their use of possessive apostrophes are astonishingly bad as is their/there/they're.



i agree, i taught EFL for several years in france, and found out we have 7 tenses in tha past- did you know that? not many people do
i am 36 and was never taught this stuff at school, i was in the age range that missed alot of grammer info, i try to install it into my kids, but they are not getting it fed into them at school too, 1 sided doesnt work....
my written/verbal english varies greatly from the situation im in, here, class, marking, chatting with mates, interview etc. HOWEVER there is an increasing number of people who struggle to understand that tone/vocab etc SHOULD change depending on who/what/where.
joolz, ill email you next time i need something checking


have you noticed its only us teachers left, everyone else has "left the room!"


----------



## joolz1910

scojos said:


> joolz, ill email you next time i need something checking


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


>


----------



## joolz1910

Hey Tracy, it's nice to know that a bunch of teachers can still bore people so much that they all leave the room.

Homophones are the bane of my life. 
to/too/two
they're/their/there
tale/tail

And don't get me started on the apostrophe.

There, that will have seen the last of the non-teaching posters off.


----------



## UKDEB

scojos said:


> HOWEVER there is an increasing number of people who struggle to understand that tone/vocab etc SHOULD change depending on who/what/where.


Count me as one of them.  English is english in whatever circumstances it's written.


----------



## melly

wishspirit said:


> !
> 
> See, I find this a little upsetting.:



Well dont. It was no slight on your ability and if you do that job because you genuinely want to then great for you




wishspirit said:


> !I am a university student applying for Primary PGCE's (and it is NOT a walk in! They aren't taking on anyone without significant work in schools as well as something else interesting to their name) and the reason why I want to jump back into being at a school is because I love kids! I have worked throughout my time at University (all be it part time), and I think I have a grasp of what parents have to deal with, as well as teachers.
> 
> I think the 'bubble' you guys are referring to is passion. They are passionate about what they do (otherwise all the other crud they have to deal with just wouldn't be worth it). Yes it can make anyone a little insular, but teachers have a lot to juggle in their working day.
> 
> :



Nah. The bubble for me is just the lack understanding of reality amongst many teachers that come via that route. Obviously not all, but a lot of them. 

The failure to grasp reality that I am on about are those teachers who think they have been delt a poor hand in life. Those that voted to strike because they were appauled by a 6% pay rise offer during a recession ........ these people seem to have zero understanding of reality. People may wander what this has to do with this thread, well it is as follows. If I am going to have some teacher preach to me about taking my kids out of school and use the "why wont someone think of the kids" argument on me then I wouldnt expect these same teachers to strike (at the expense of my kids education) under such circumstances. That is what I dislike and why I think many dont have a firm grasp of reality. 

These kind of people who will happily preach to me yet they dont give a stuff about teaching. Probably the type that have done some dopper type degree, cant do anything else so by default entered teaching. These are the same type of people who come up with rediculouse statements like "I dont have to teach your kid" or "why should I provide your kid with some work because you went on holiday" or "why should I mark the work given to your kid while on holiday". If those people truely loved their job and truely wanted to teach they wouldnt come up with stuff like that. These are the same people that will think nothing at sniping at parents for taking their kids out of school. 

Now Im not suggesting for a minute that you are one of these people, apologies if you felt that way and it comes accross to me the way you write that you arent. However many teachers are like that and (only IMO of course) the bulk of teachers that are like that come from the type I describe. Those who have wandered into teaching by accident / default. I'd just like to stress, by saying this Im not saying all people who have followed that pathway into teaching are like that.


----------



## iluvtot

mickeyforpresident said:


> Try reading 300 annual reports with practice/practise completely wrong!!!! You are not being pedantic at all - teachers should be able to write proper like.
> 
> Deb - it is shocking how bad English is in teachers these days. I have my own way in interview of knowing if they can write themselves - their use of possessive apostrophes are astonishingly bad as is their/there/they're.



I can remember at a Primary school parent's evening asking the teacher why he hadn't corrected my son's spelling mistakes'. He looked at the book I was referring to, and told me it was history, and not english; so they didn't have to be corrected. When I asked why, I was told he didn't have time!!

Mind you, I do think texting has alot to answer for!

Jules x


----------



## janiebubble

melly said:


> Well dont. It was no slight on your ability and if you do that job because you genuinely want to then great for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. The bubble for me is just the lack understanding of reality amongst many teachers that come via that route. Obviously not all, but a lot of them.
> 
> The failure to grasp reality that I am on about are those teachers who think they have been delt a poor hand in life. Those that voted to strike because they were appauled by a 6% pay rise offer during a recession ........ these people seem to have zero understanding of reality. People may wander what this has to do with this thread, well it is as follows. If I am going to have some teacher preach to me about taking my kids out of school and use the "why wont someone think of the kids" argument on me then I wouldnt expect these same teachers to strike (at the expense of my kids education) under such circumstances. That is what I dislike and why I think many dont have a firm grasp of reality.
> 
> These kind of people who will happily preach to me yet they dont give a stuff about teaching. Probably the type that have done some dopper type degree, cant do anything else so by default entered teaching. These are the same type of people who come up with rediculouse statements like "I dont have to teach your kid" or "why should I provide your kid with some work because you went on holiday" or "why should I mark the work given to your kid while on holiday". If those people truely loved their job and truely wanted to teach they wouldnt come up with stuff like that. These are the same people that will think nothing at sniping at parents for taking their kids out of school.
> 
> Now Im not suggesting for a minute that you are one of these people, apologies if you felt that way and it comes accross to me the way you write that you arent. However many teachers are like that and (only IMO of course) the bulk of teachers that are like that come from the type I describe. Those who have wandered into teaching by accident / default. I'd just like to stress, by saying this Im not saying all people who have followed that pathway into teaching are like that.



I'd love to be offered a 6% pay rise, this year we got 1%, yes I know that's better than nothing, but teaching is not a highly paid job ... and no, I'm not in it for the money ... I have a degree in law, and passed all the solicitors exams, and when (non teachers) hear that their first words are 'why are you teaching?? you could earn more as a solicitor' which is true!  But I genuinely get a huge kick out of sharing my enthusiasm for my subject and helping my students get to university.  I realise teaching 16-18 year olds is different, but it's still hard work!!


----------



## disney_princess_85

joolz1910 said:


> There, that will have seen the last of the non-teaching posters off.



I'm not a teacher but I have a degree in English and I'm still here.


----------



## joolz1910

disney_princess_85 said:


> I'm not a teacher but I have a degree in English and I'm still here.



Please tell me you are doing a PGCE!


----------



## Zeebs

My English teacher wrote on my report card, "needs help with spelling and punctuation" and that is where it was left...... Never offered me any assistance.  I went to school in New Zealand so we have dodgy teachers there as well as fantastic ones.

??????

Are you being serious when you say if the subject isn't English they don't correct spelling and punctuation.  How the blue blazes are the kids suppose to learn?

Half our marks in essays came from the spelling, composition, punctuation of an essay, the other half was on the content of the essay.

Kirsten


----------



## joolz1910

Zeebs said:


> My English teacher wrote on my report card, "needs help with spelling and punctuation" and that is where it was left...... Never offered me any assistance.  I went to school in New Zealand so we have dodgy teachers there as well as fantastic ones.
> 
> ??????
> 
> Are you being serious when you say if the subject isn't English they don't correct spelling and punctuation.  How the blue blazes are the kids suppose to learn?
> 
> Half our marks in essays came from the spelling, composition, punctuation of an essay, the other half was on the content of the essay.
> 
> Kirsten



I can remember being told that I made 'unnecessary corrections' when I marked kids' work. I think every correction is necessary.


----------



## Zeebs

joolz1910 said:


> I can remember being told that I made 'unnecessary corrections' when I marked kids' work. I think every correction is necessary.



That makes me really cross.  Where do you live can I send my kids to you to be taught.

I won't pick up on half their mistakes, but I kind of expected their teachers to be able to.



Kirsten


----------



## joolz1910

Zeebs said:


> That makes me really cross.  Where do you live can I send my kids to you to be taught.
> 
> I won't pick up on half their mistakes, but I kind of expected their teachers to be able to.
> 
> 
> 
> Kirsten



 Send your kids to me.

Actually, better still, send them to UKDeb - she will sort them out.


----------



## iluvtot

Zeebs said:


> ??????
> 
> Are you being serious when you say if the subject isn't English they don't correct spelling and punctuation.  How the blue blazes are the kids suppose to learn?
> 
> Half our marks in essays came from the spelling, composition, punctuation of an essay, the other half was on the content of the essay.
> 
> Kirsten



It was about 9 years ago, but my argument was that it should be automatic to correct mistakes' as you are reading. I can remember my books being littered with red 'strikes' through my errors, but I learnt through them!!

Jules x


----------



## joolz1910

iluvtot said:


> It was about 9 years ago, but my argument was that it should be automatic to correct mistakes' as you are reading. I can remember my books being littered with red 'strikes' through my errors, but I learnt through them!!
> 
> Jules x



We don't use red pens now. Our policy is to use green...very Dis-friendly!


----------



## 2Tiggies

Zeebs said:


> Are you being serious when you say if the subject isn't English they don't correct spelling and punctuation.  How the blue blazes are the kids suppose to learn?
> 
> Half our marks in essays came from the spelling, composition, punctuation of an essay, the other half was on the content of the essay.
> 
> Kirsten



All our subjects were marked like that. Bad grammar and spelling and marks were deducted whether is was a physics paper of a history essay.  I understand that it is not like that here now - or couled have been the school I was in.  I don't understand what good a degree in any subject would do if you are unable to communicate effectively, but that is just my point of view (aka my not-so-humble-opinion )


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> We don't use red pens now. Our policy is to use green...very Dis-friendly!



i use pink and lilac


----------



## melly

janiebubble said:


> I'd love to be offered a 6% pay rise, this year we got 1%, yes I know that's better than nothing, but teaching is not a highly paid job ... and no, I'm not in it for the money ... I have a degree in law, and passed all the solicitors exams, and when (non teachers) hear that their first words are 'why are you teaching?? you could earn more as a solicitor' which is true!  But I genuinely get a huge kick out of sharing my enthusiasm for my subject and helping my students get to university.  I realise teaching 16-18 year olds is different, but it's still hard work!!



My apologies it was approx 7.5 % spanned over t 3yrs startining in 08.N ever the less the point still stands that at a time where the vast majority of the country didnt know if they'd have ajob or not the teachers were turning their nose up at getting several % (hence the real world comments) This action was at the expense of our kids educations therefore i will throw this back at any teacher who accuses me of damaging my childs education taking them on hols
as for the rest of your post i have nothing but respect for teachers like you.My negative comments are aimed at those who aren't and don't give a stuff


----------



## janiebubble

melly said:


> My apologies it was approx 7.5 % spanned over t 3yrs startining in 08.N ever the less the point still stands that at a time where the vast majority of the country didnt know if they'd have ajob or not the teachers were turning their nose up at getting several % (hence the real world comments) This action was at the expense of our kids educations therefore i will throw this back at any teacher who accuses me of damaging my childs education taking them on hols
> as for the rest of your post i have nothing but respect for teachers like you.My negative comments are aimed at those who aren't and don't give a stuff



Oh I'm just a little bitter ... as a sixth form college teacher we don't get the pay and conditions of school teachers, (although it is better than Further Education Colleges were I used to work).  I can't understand why post 16 education isn't valued as highly as compulsory, we work as hard, honest!!!


----------



## Miss Mo

2Tiggies said:


> Quite!
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes.  But we have to foot the bill for additional child care since other sectors of employment don't have this - in addition to ludicrous amounts of holidays over the course of the year.



Whereas I have the nice long holidays and have to pay for my private preschool childcare throughout all the holidays!!  That would well fund an extra trip to Disney if I didn't!! Also once my son is at school I work in a different authority so we'll not always even have the same school holidays!! 

It would seem no-one's happy! lol!

mo x


----------



## UKDEB

joolz1910 said:


> I can remember being told that I made 'unnecessary corrections' when I marked kids' work. I think every correction is necessary.



Thanks goodness there are still teachers around like you.  I hope you're standing your ground.


----------



## wishspirit

melly said:


> Well dont. It was no slight on your ability and if you do that job because you genuinely want to then great for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. The bubble for me is just the lack understanding of reality amongst many teachers that come via that route. Obviously not all, but a lot of them.
> 
> The failure to grasp reality that I am on about are those teachers who think they have been delt a poor hand in life. Those that voted to strike because they were appauled by a 6% pay rise offer during a recession ........ these people seem to have zero understanding of reality. People may wander what this has to do with this thread, well it is as follows. If I am going to have some teacher preach to me about taking my kids out of school and use the "why wont someone think of the kids" argument on me then I wouldnt expect these same teachers to strike (at the expense of my kids education) under such circumstances. That is what I dislike and why I think many dont have a firm grasp of reality.
> 
> These kind of people who will happily preach to me yet they dont give a stuff about teaching. Probably the type that have done some dopper type degree, cant do anything else so by default entered teaching. These are the same type of people who come up with rediculouse statements like "I dont have to teach your kid" or "why should I provide your kid with some work because you went on holiday" or "why should I mark the work given to your kid while on holiday". If those people truely loved their job and truely wanted to teach they wouldnt come up with stuff like that. These are the same people that will think nothing at sniping at parents for taking their kids out of school.
> 
> Now Im not suggesting for a minute that you are one of these people, apologies if you felt that way and it comes accross to me the way you write that you arent. However many teachers are like that and (only IMO of course) the bulk of teachers that are like that come from the type I describe. Those who have wandered into teaching by accident / default. I'd just like to stress, by saying this Im not saying all people who have followed that pathway into teaching are like that.



I think you have just had a run of bad luck with teachers! I agree there are 'jobs-worths' out there, just like any profession, but maybe it is easier to see because they tread such a fine line.

I am divided on the whole issue of taking children out of school, because part of me really does believe that education is more than what is learnt inside a classroom. However I have also seen, in my time volunteering in schools, in our jam packed curriculum how easy it is to be left behind! Teachers rarely have class time to spend getting children to catch up, leaving both the child and the teacher at a disadvantage. It is generally ok if your child is bright and has the support to keep up at home, but if they don't it can be very difficult to re-gain that learning.

So yes, I understand both sides of the coin here.



janiebubble said:


> Oh I'm just a little bitter ... as a sixth form college teacher we don't get the pay and conditions of school teachers, (although it is better than Further Education Colleges were I used to work).  I can't understand why post 16 education isn't valued as highly as compulsory, we work as hard, honest!!!



I am in complete admiration for sixth form teachers. I know how hard my teachers worked to get me through my A levels, well above and beyond the call of duty! Not to mention the mountains of marking! I definitely value your contribution!


----------



## luke

janiebubble said:


> I can't understand why post 16 education isn't valued as highly as compulsory, we work as hard, honest!!!



Damn right!! I teach A Level as well as key stages 3 and 4, and wow does it take me so much longer to plan and mark those lessons!!

I suppose the upside is not needing as much classroom management in the key stage


----------



## EPCOTFANROD

melly said:


> My apologies it was approx 7.5 % spanned over t 3yrs startining in 08.N ever the less the point still stands that at a time where the vast majority of the country didnt know if they'd have ajob or not the teachers were turning their nose up at getting several % (hence the real world comments) This action was at the expense of our kids educations therefore i will throw this back at any teacher who accuses me of damaging my childs education taking them on hols
> as for the rest of your post i have nothing but respect for teachers like you.My negative comments are aimed at those who aren't and don't give a stuff



Were you bullied in school by your teachers?  There is obviously some underlying issue here.
As a teacher of thirteen years I have yet to spend a second "on strike" so what would you "throw back at me?"


----------



## joolz1910

EPCOTFANROD said:


> Were you bullied in school by your teachers?  There is obviously some underlying issue here.
> As a teacher of thirteen years I have yet to spend a second "on strike" so what would you "throw back at me?"


----------



## tttessa

Hiya,

I'm in that delicious position of working in a primary school (2 daughters are pupils too) , though not a teacher.... I am a mid-day supervisor - dinner lady with no kitchens.... I am also a parent helper - all the fun with little responsibility..

I feel as an educated  lady - former marine radio engineer, that I can comment on some of the "real world" stuff.  There are not many teachers at our school who do not realise what the world is like out there... 

The older more experienced teachers have certainly seen a lot - going from the kids and parents being respectful of their position, to the current "phase" of seeing teachers as their "employees".  The lack of respect I hear in the playground at drop off time astounds me.

The new teachers have certainly seen the real world and all it's financial instabilities.  Have you tried getting on the courses, or attaining employment in a recession - alongside some very real debts which a lot of them will be paying off for over a decade.

The "in-betweenies" have had to expand their teaching experience through the "pc" world - where new initiatives and paperwork seem to increase exponentially, alongside the massive influx of technology into the teaching arena.

A lot seems to be expected of teachers - and from living in the real world myself, I have had no experience of the "bubble" that the teachers are supposedly a part of.

Remember schooling and education are both separate entities; WE are responsible for educating our children.  

Tessa


----------



## joolz1910

UKDEB said:


> Thanks goodness there are still teachers around like you.  I hope you're standing your ground.



I still correct every error. I like to go through the work with the students and give verbal feedback too - that way they can ask if they don't understand.



luke said:


> Damn right!! I teach A Level as well as key stages 3 and 4, and wow does it take me so much longer to plan and mark those lessons!!
> 
> I suppose the upside is not needing as much classroom management in the key stage



 I teach year 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and I have a 6th form tutor group this year. I'm 0.5 fte! My AS/A2 lessons take the most preparation but I would still prefer post-16 than 30 Year 7's.


----------



## joolz1910

tttessa said:


> Hiya,
> 
> I'm in that delicious position of working in a primary school (2 daughters are pupils too) , though not a teacher.... I am a mid-day supervisor - dinner lady with no kitchens.... I am also a parent helper - all the fun with little responsibility..
> 
> I feel as an educated  lady - former marine radio engineer, that I can comment on some of the "real world" stuff.  There are not many teachers at our school who do not realise what the world is like out there...
> 
> The older more experienced teachers have certainly seen a lot - going from the kids and parents being respectful of their position, to the current "phase" of seeing teachers as their "employees".  The lack of respect I hear in the playground at drop off time astounds me.
> 
> The new teachers have certainly seen the real world and all it's financial instabilities.  Have you tried getting on the courses, or attaining employment in a recession - alongside some very real debts which a lot of them will be paying off for over a decade.
> 
> The "in-betweenies" have had to expand their teaching experience through the "pc" world - where new initiatives and paperwork seem to increase exponentially, alongside the massive influx of technology into the teaching arena.
> 
> A lot seems to be expected of teachers - and from living in the real world myself, I have had no experience of the "bubble" that the teachers are supposedly a part of.
> 
> Remember schooling and education are both separate entities; WE are responsible for educating our children.
> 
> Tessa


----------



## disney_princess_85

joolz1910 said:


> Please tell me you are doing a PGCE!





No, I'm not doing a PGCE. Maybe one day!


----------



## iluvtot

tttessa said:


> Hiya,
> 
> I'm in that delicious position of working in a primary school (2 daughters are pupils too) , though not a teacher.... I am a mid-day supervisor - dinner lady with no kitchens.... I am also a parent helper - all the fun with little responsibility..
> 
> 
> The older more experienced teachers have certainly seen a lot - going from the kids and parents being respectful of their position, to the current "phase" of seeing teachers as their "employees".  The lack of respect I hear in the playground at drop off time astounds me.
> 
> Remember schooling and education are both separate entities; WE are responsible for educating our children.
> 
> Tessa



I work in a pre-school, and the problems' start here. We are now working from the same book as schools. The new EYFS(early years foundation stage) gives children the right to say 'no' and we are supposed to respect that! How are we supposed to teach boundaries when if a 3 year old says no, he doesn't want to help with tidy up time/go out/say sorry etc; then that's OK!
In my experience, children need boundaries, and this isn't making it any easier for teachers'. I really cannot believe what my kids get away with in their school! They talk about 'respect', but have no idea what the word really means.The lack of 'respect' shown to teachers, and their (legal) ability to deal with it diminishes as the school years' progress.
I know I sound like an old fogey, but I totally respected my teachers, and I don't know when it all started to go wrong. Kids in my school wouldn't dream of back chatting a teacher as they would be punished. Now there doesn't seem to be a punishment 'scary' enough.
I'm not talking 'Tom Browns School days' here, but if teachers' don't have any authority how can they be expected to teach properly?

Most of the teachers' I come into contact with through my childrens' schools' are amazingly dedicated people, who have to put up with rubbish on a daily basis because they don't have the authority to act, and consequently the kids think they can get away with murder.
Sorry, this is a bit garbled and off topic, but relevent I think

Jules x


----------



## Liz from Diz

I'm a teacher and I always understood that parents were entitled to take their children out for 2 weeks holiday a year. After that absences were marked as unauthorised.


----------



## joolz1910

Liz from Diz said:


> I'm a teacher and I always understood that parents were entitled to take their children out for 2 weeks holiday a year. After that absences were marked as unauthorised.



The Headteacher can authorise 10 days at his/her discretion. Unfortunately, leaving it to individual Heads makes the system seem very unfair to those who have their requests declined. The consensus appears to be that there isn't much the LEA can do if your only 'crime' is to take your child out of school for a family holiday. 

If you you have 10 days authorised and then return after that date, your child's absences will (possibly) be marked as unauthorised.


----------



## kristieuk

Liz from Diz said:


> I'm a teacher and I always understood that parents were entitled to take their children out for 2 weeks holiday a year. After that absences were marked as unauthorised.


 
My understanding is that this is at the discretion of the headteacher (who is no doubt dictated to from above). The reality is that many schools do so as not to affect their attendance figures, but the tide seems to be turning, judging by some of the experiences relayed in this thread.


----------



## melly

EPCOTFANROD said:


> Were you bullied in school by your teachers?  There is obviously some underlying issue here.
> As a teacher of thirteen years I have yet to spend a second "on strike" so what would you "throw back at me?"



No there are no underlying issues. You can make little quips like above all you want however the the situation is as follows

Either

A - I have underlying issues and have therefore completely fabricated the teachers strike of 08 

Or

B- it actually did happen and as a result I am relatively intolerant to a proffesion that is big on talk of what0parents should and shouldn't do yet are happy to put my kids best interests to the back of thje priority list when it suits them.

I realise that not all teachers will have been on strike however enough must have felt it justified to pass a vote in at least one of the unions. If you didn't do it then I have no issue with you, therefore nothing to throw back at you and likwise you should have no issue with what I post because it is not aimed at you


----------



## EPCOTFANROD

melly said:


> No there are no underlying issues. You can make little quips like above all you want however the the situation is as follows
> 
> Either
> 
> A - I have underlying issues and have therefore completely fabricated the teachers strike of 08
> 
> Or
> 
> B- it actually did happen and as a result I am relatively intolerant to a proffesion that is big on talk of what0parents should and shouldn't do yet are happy to put my kids best interests to the back of thje priority list when it suits them.
> 
> I realise that not all teachers will have been on strike however enough must have felt it justified to pass a vote in at least one of the unions. If you didn't do it then I have no issue with you, therefore nothing to throw back at you and likwise you should have no issue with what I post because it is not aimed at you



The teacher's Strike of 2008.  Was this a long winter of discontent?  Or was this a 1 day strike two years ago by one minority union in England and Wales only?
The way you are talking us teachers are walking out every year for months at a time.  No-one in my workplace has ever been on strike and some have been there for 25+ years.  Clutching at straws Melly

On a lighter note I would encourage my parents to go to Florida.  Preferably in the holidays, but I understand that circumstances can be difficult.  I just spent 5 minutes talking to a parent who has booked for August.  Another child in my class is going in May....she is the brightest child in the class and I know the parental support will be there for her to catch up.  I'll give her a pack of stuff she missed, but she will not fall behind at all...just that sort of pupil.


----------



## scojos

EPCOTFANROD said:


> The teacher's Strike of 2008.  Was this a long winter of discontent?  Or was this a 1 day strike two years ago by one minority union in England and Wales only?
> The way you are talking us teachers are walking out every year for months at a time.  No-one in my workplace has ever been on strike and some have been there for 25+ years.  Clutching at straws Melly
> 
> .



you mean i missed a strike???
damn- i ll have to change unions, hey i didnt even know there had been a strike ... was the NUT? naughty teachers

i just think this is getting silly, teachers and parents alike think that reasonable consideration on both sides mean that kids dont suffer...
so why oh why Melly, are you being soooo difficult?
tracy


----------



## Zeebs

EPCOTFANROD said:


> The teacher's Strike of 2008.  Was this a long winter of discontent?  Or was this a 1 day strike two years ago by one minority union in England and Wales only?
> The way you are talking us teachers are walking out every year for months at a time.  No-one in my workplace has ever been on strike and some have been there for 25+ years.  Clutching at straws Melly
> 
> On a lighter note I would encourage my parents to go to Florida.  Preferably in the holidays, but I understand that circumstances can be difficult.  I just spent 5 minutes talking to a parent who has booked for August.  Another child in my class is going in May....she is the brightest child in the class and I know the parental support will be there for her to catch up.  I'll give her a pack of stuff she missed, but she will not fall behind at all...just that sort of pupil.



Maybe Melly lives in the area where that minority was on strike.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  

Most teachers are great, most parents teachers have to deal with are great.  There will always be a few in both camps that are not.

I think most teachers do a fantastic job as does Melly as he has stated this previously, but just because he has come across some that he feels aren't doing a stellar job doesn't mean he has it in for all teachers in the country.

Kirsten


----------



## joolz1910

scojos said:


> i just think this is getting silly, teachers and parents alike think that reasonable consideration on both sides mean that kids dont suffer...
> so why oh why Melly, are you being soooo difficult?
> tracy



Because Melly is playing devil's advocate. Naughty naughty Melly Welly. I might have to put him/her in detention for disruptive behaviour.

Check out Melly's previous posts - he/she does this sort of thing a lot.


----------



## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> Because Melly is playing devil's advocate. Naughty naughty Melly Welly. I might have to put him/her in detention for disruptive behaviour.
> 
> Check out Melly's previous posts - he/she does this sort of thing a lot.



Now Melly, play nicely.  That's you told by the teacher.


----------



## luke

joolz1910 said:


> Because Melly is playing devil's advocate. Naughty naughty Melly Welly. I might have to put him/her in detention for disruptive behaviour.
> 
> Check out Melly's previous posts - he/she does this sort of thing a lot.



Oh yes, a quick look at their posting history shows them sticking to the hot button topics (for that ready likely to be locked), hence me calling them out as a troll very early on. And they've done nothing to dissuade me of that!

Naughty Melly Welly indeed


----------



## 2Tiggies

> If you didn't do it then I have no issue with you, therefore nothing to throw back at you and likwise you should have no issue with what I post because it is not aimed at you



Although I see where you are coming from, I do think it is disrespectful to make generalised comments about an entire profession and leave it up to those amongst the criticised group to have to decide for themselves whether it they are justified in taking it personally. Some WILL take it personally, not because they have done anything wrong, but because they care deeply about their job and the people they work with.  Regardless of what we do for a living, we are all people and sharing views, opinions and experiences is what makes the DIS so successful and enjoyable.  But it is meant to be construcive and helpful and aimed at building people up, not breaking them down.  I can tell you for a fact that some of my best friendships have been borne out of conflict through very different perspectives on some "big" issues.  I have met some wonderful people in my life and if there is one thing I have learnt, it is that you don't have to agree to get along.  But you do need to build a relationship to a certain level before you can expect to be able to be blunt in delivering your point without expecting the other party to take it to heart.


----------



## princessjodiebo

wow this is one debate i cannot stop reading about and although new to this i just wanted to say my piece 

i have 2 children one daughter who is in year 7 and a son in year 3 and i have been wrestling with what to do about taking them out of school 
 i have spoken to many teachers (my brothers girlfriend works in a secondary school )and parents alike and i tseems there is definatly no middle ground in this situation 

i am taking my children out of school for one week at the beginning of october next year as my husband cannot get time in school holidays off - he works for a huge firm of accountants and has to wait in line for holiday even if he wants to book it a year in advance our honey moon is being taken 10 months after our wedding !!

anyway next october my daughter will just be starting year 9 and my son year 5 i would absouloutely refuse to take her out during year 10 or eleven and although at my daughters school they take their options in year 8 rather than year 9 the proper groundwork for all her exams wont start til after christmas at the earliest 

i want to take my children while they are still able to look at the trip through childlike eyes - we have already started to make it educational plotting possible flight routes the importance of walt disney for cinema and film the differences in american culture and food and ours even getting them to work out how many dollars to the pound 

i know many people will judge me but we are having to save and save just for one week in term time i feel that if we dont go for it now i will never be able to 
the school are well aware that parents can sometimes take liberties regarding holidays especially those with a large amount of sickness but with my children that is not the case 
i know that teachers work hard from seeing my bros gf online at silly o clock stating that she is still up marking or lesson planning however i have spoken to my daughter and she is fully prepared to catch up on what she has missed even if it means going to afterschool homework clubs but she is old enough that i was able to talk about this holiday with her as i feel she should have a say and she is more than prepared to catch up on a weeks work 
sometimes she has to anyway when a supply teacher doesnt have any work left for them and they end up doing crosswords 

anyway i have no doubt i will be judged for this decision but it wasnt that long ago that when i was at school 10 days was automatically authorised i remember going to spain in my last year of secondary !!

didnt seem to do me much harm ! !


----------



## joolz1910

princessjodiebo said:


> wow this is one debate i cannot stop reading about and although new to this i just wanted to say my piece
> 
> i have 2 children one daughter who is in year 7 and a son in year 3 and i have been wrestling with what to do about taking them out of school
> i have spoken to many teachers (my brothers girlfriend works in a secondary school )and parents alike and i tseems there is definatly no middle ground in this situation
> 
> i am taking my children out of school for one week at the beginning of october next year as my husband cannot get time in school holidays off - he works for a huge firm of accountants and has to wait in line for holiday even if he wants to book it a year in advance our honey moon is being taken 10 months after our wedding !!
> 
> anyway next october my daughter will just be starting year 9 and my son year 5 i would absouloutely refuse to take her out during year 10 or eleven and although at my daughters school they take their options in year 8 rather than year 9 the proper groundwork for all her exams wont start til after christmas at the earliest
> 
> i want to take my children while they are still able to look at the trip through childlike eyes - *we have already started to make it educational plotting *possible flight routes the importance of walt disney for cinema and film the differences in american culture and food and ours even getting them to work out how many dollars to the pound
> *
> i know many people will judge* me but we are having to save and save just for one week in term time i feel that if we dont go for it now i will never be able to
> the school are well aware that parents can sometimes take liberties regarding holidays especially those with a large amount of sickness but with my children that is not the case
> i know that teachers work hard from seeing my bros gf online at silly o clock stating that she is still up marking or lesson planning however i have spoken to my daughter and she is fully prepared to catch up on what she has missed even if it means going to afterschool homework clubs but she is old enough that i was able to talk about this holiday with her as i feel she should have a say and she is more than prepared to catch up on a weeks work
> sometimes she has to anyway when a supply teacher doesnt have any work left for them and they end up doing crosswords
> 
> anyway i have no doubt i will be judged for this decision but it wasnt that long ago that when i was at school 10 days was automatically authorised i remember going to spain in my last year of secondary !!
> 
> didnt seem to do me much harm ! !




I certainly wouldn't judge you. You don't have to defend your decision - they are your children and you know them best.

I wouldn't worry too much about making your trip educational. If my children are educated while we are on holiday, it's usually accidental. I hope you have a great time.


----------



## princessjodiebo

thanks juliette i just couldnt resist writing on this topic !! 

so many hot headed opinions it really seems to hit a nerve with some people !

maybe they will be nice to me *** im a newbie lol


----------



## 2Tiggies

princessjodiebo said:


> i am taking my children out of school for one week at the beginning of october next year as my husband cannot get time in school holidays off - he works for a huge firm of accountants and has to wait in line for holiday even if he wants to book it a year in advance our honey moon is being taken 10 months after our wedding !!
> 
> anyway next october my daughter will just be starting year 9 and my son year 5 i would absouloutely refuse to take her out during year 10 or eleven and although at my daughters school they take their options in year 8 rather than year 9 the proper groundwork for all her exams wont start til after christmas at the earliest



This has actually become the core of this discussion/debate.  Trying to juggle what is best for the family as a whole, the individual family members, practicality and budget, as well as doing the right thing.  IMO that is the very reason that this has become such a well discussed topic.  There is no one right or wrong way to approach the issue.  Every family unit has its own circumstances and so what is right and workable will be different for all of us, and indeed, will probably change over time. 



> i know many people will judge me but we are having to save and save just for one week in term time i feel that if we dont go for it now i will never be able to



I think you will be pleasantly surprised at just how few people, if any, judge you on here.   Welcome to the thread!


----------



## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about making your trip educational. If my children are educated while we are on holiday, it's usually accidental.



 !!!!  Aaaah, a truly honest and practical person!


----------



## Scrap_Vamp

I know I've disappeared off of the thread for a while, but I've had a thought that might be useful for parents.

At our school, and at many other schools in my LEA, we have a VLE - Virtual Learning Environment.  At the moment ours isn't partciularly well used, and we are switching to a new platform over the course of the next term (I'm even having training in how to create Wikis - eek!).  However, I believe a lot of schools now have them.  In our Department we post the majority of homework (and other course materials) onto our section of the VLE.  If pupils need to catch up on work, I will direct parents here as a first port of call to find the work.  It is surprising how many parents have not learned about the VLE from the school, or indeed their children!

So, if you do need to keep your children off school, for any reason, do ask if the school has a VLE where you can access the work 

Oh, and in the spelling/grammar issue - I had a very bright Year 9 BTEC student question why I was picking up his mistakes in Drama coursework - "But it's Drama, MIss, not English!"  I keep my standards when marking, but not all teachers in my school do!


----------



## melly

EPCOTFANROD said:


> The teacher's Strike of 2008.  Was this a long winter of discontent?  Or was this a 1 day strike two years ago by one minority union in England and Wales only?
> The way you are talking us teachers are walking out every year for months at a time.  No-one in my workplace has ever been on strike and some have been there for 25+ years.  Clutching at straws Melly
> 
> On a lighter note I would encourage my parents to go to Florida.  Preferably in the holidays, but I understand that circumstances can be difficult.  I just spent 5 minutes talking to a parent who has booked for August.  Another child in my class is going in May....she is the brightest child in the class and I know the parental support will be there for her to catch up.  I'll give her a pack of stuff she missed, but she will not fall behind at all...just that sort of pupil.



Firstly you have fabricated an opinion for me. At no point have I suggested that teachers strike on a regular basis. I haven't even come close to doing so, I clearly stated when and where the strikes were anything else you have dreamt up

Secondly it matters not if it was 1 day or a winter of discontent. Us parents are reminded of how every day counts and how lost days are irrecoverable. It works both ways.

Thirdly although it is not a majority of teachers it was still 1 in 10. Even assuming that only yes voting teachers went on strike that is still 50,000 teacher or approx 1.5million kids affected plus parents inconvenienced both for time and cost of childcare. Clearly though I am in the wrong to be outraged at this and, just rub salt into the wound I should just put up and shut up when teachers pontificate whether I have damaged my kids education taking them on hols


----------



## 2Tiggies

melly said:


> Firstly you have fabricated an opinion for me. At no point have I suggested that teachers strike on a regular basis. I haven't even come close to doing so, I clearly stated when and where the strikes were anything else you have dreamt up
> 
> Secondly it matters not if it was 1 day or a winter of discontent. Us parents are reminded of how every day counts and how lost days are irrecoverable. It works both ways.
> 
> Thirdly although it is not a majority of teachers it was still 1 in 10. Even assuming that only yes voting teachers went on strike that is still 50,000 teacher or approx 1.5million kids affected plus parents inconvenienced both for time and cost of childcare. Clearly though I am in the wrong to be outraged at this and, just rub salt into the wound I should just put up and shut up when teachers pontificate whether I have damaged my kids education taking them on hols



Melly, the reason people are getting upset is that the thread is NOT ABOUT TEACHERS.  Most of them agree with you in principal regarding taking kids out of school and most of those who don't, acknowledge the fact that you have to make the best decision you can as a parent.  Putting your point of view across is what is intended on the boards.  However slamming others in the process is seen as bad form.


----------



## EPCOTFANROD

melly said:


> Firstly you have fabricated an opinion for me. At no point have I suggested that teachers strike on a regular basis. I haven't even come close to doing so, I clearly stated when and where the strikes were anything else you have dreamt up
> 
> Secondly it matters not if it was 1 day or a winter of discontent. Us parents are reminded of how every day counts and how lost days are irrecoverable. It works both ways.
> 
> Thirdly although it is not a majority of teachers it was still 1 in 10. Even assuming that only yes voting teachers went on strike that is still 50,000 teacher or approx 1.5million kids affected plus parents inconvenienced both for time and cost of childcare. Clearly though I am in the wrong to be outraged at this and, just rub salt into the wound I should just put up and shut up when teachers pontificate whether I have damaged my kids education taking them on hols



So you are saying that a two week holiday will do no more damage to a childs education than a 1 day strike two years ago?

Melly : I am taking my kids out of school because, one day, years ago, in some part of Britain, some teachers errr,  went on strike for a day.


----------



## EPCOTFANROD

I am beginning to agree with Luke in that this Melly bloke must be Fishing.


----------



## melly

EPCOTFANROD said:


> So you are saying that a two week holiday will do no more damage to a childs education than a 1 day strike two years ago?
> 
> Melly : I am taking my kids out of school because, one day, years ago, in some part of Britain, some teachers errr,  went on strike for a day.



No I didn't say that nor is it the point. The point is, for those that cvan read, that it is a bit rich for a teacher to question the motives of a parent taking their kid out of school wjhen many teachers affected childten in the same way in a quest to feather their own nest


----------



## melly

2Tiggies said:


> Melly, the reason people are getting upset is that the thread is NOT ABOUT TEACHERS.  Most of them agree with you in principal regarding taking kids out of school and most of those who don't, acknowledge the fact that you have to make the best decision you can as a parent.  Putting your point of view across is what is intended on the boards.  However slamming others in the process is seen as bad form.



The only people I have slammed are those teachers who don't gibve a stuff about teaching or kids. I have explicitly stated on a number of occasions that those who don't fit that bill meed not to be offended as I am not talking about them.

Those that do fall into that catagory tough. If the cap fits then wear it. It is those people I am trying to get my message accross to and they will know who they are


----------



## 2Tiggies

melly said:


> Those that do fall into that catagory tough. If the cap fits then wear it. It is those people I am trying to get my message accross to and they will know who they are



Did you read my post #323 on the previous page?  If you are trying to get your point across to "those people", then fair enough.  However I believe you are doing it in the wrong place.


----------



## melly

2Tiggies said:


> Although I see where you are coming from, I do think it is disrespectful to make generalised comments about an entire profession and leave it up to those amongst the criticised group to have to decide for themselves whether it they are justified in taking it personally. Some WILL take it personally, not because they have done anything wrong, but because they care deeply about their job and the people they work with.  Regardless of what we do for a living, we are all people and sharing views, opinions and experiences is what makes the DIS so successful and enjoyable.  But it is meant to be construcive and helpful and aimed at building people up, not breaking them down.  I can tell you for a fact that some of my best friendships have been borne out of conflict through very different perspectives on some "big" issues.  I have met some wonderful people in my life and if there is one thing I have learnt, it is that you don't have to agree to get along.  But you do need to build a relationship to a certain level before you can expect to be able to be blunt in delivering your point without expecting the other party to take it to heart.



Ok I will respond to it as you wish

The reason I didn't respond is basically that it isn't true. I have not generalised about teachers per say. 

The two things that could be percieved to have been generalisations are thje bubble comment then the one about the hypocrites who strike but the dole out advice on doing what is right for the kids. In each instance I have made an effort, several times to state precisely who it was aimed at.....a very specific band of people (ie not a generalisation) I have even gone to the effort of saying "this is not a generalisation, it is aimed at x. Y and z". I have also stated my respect and admiration for those teachers who love their job. Even after all of this I am being accused of generalising. I can only presume that people accusing me of this either can't read or out of stubborness are choosing not to.


----------



## 2Tiggies

melly said:


> I can only presume that people accusing me of this either can't read or out of stubborness are choosing not to.



I don't think anyone is accusing you.  Your tone, intended or not, is coming across as very hostile and naturally people are going to get a little upset about it.  Going by your posts thus far, I would not say you have a problem with communcating a point.  So you need to understand that it is quite difficult to put the perceived tone of your messages down to inability to convey your point accurately.  Always remember what mums say to the kids: It's not what you say as much as how you say it.

Another thing is that this thread is generally considered a hot topic for obvious reasons and most, very quickly, end up closed.  So far it has successfully carried a debate and interesting discussion over many pages and most of the posters on here are enjoying this.  Sadly, over the last couple of days it has threatened to evolve from a discussion into an argument.  I think I speak on behalf of the majority when I say we would like to avoid that at all costs.


----------



## scojos

EPCOTFANROD said:


> I am beginning to agree with Luke in that this Melly bloke must be Fishing.



i agree, if you look at their previous posts, some are extremely rude, we have got off lightly over here!!!

some people will always want to upset someone- personally there are enough nice people on here to ignore the *others*
tracy


----------



## 2Tiggies

scojos said:


> i agree, if you look at their previous posts, some are extremely rude, we have got off lightly over here!!!
> 
> some people will always want to upset someone- personally there are enough nice people on here to ignore the *others*
> tracy



I'm with you Tracy.  Let it be noted, my post no. 338 was my final response to such posts.  Now, where were we before we were so rudely interrupted?!


----------



## melly

2Tiggies said:


> I don't think anyone is accusing you.  Your tone, intended or not, is coming across as very hostile and naturally people are going to get a little upset about it.  Going by your posts thus far, I would not say you have a problem with communcating a point.  So you need to understand that it is quite difficult to put the perceived tone of your messages down to inability to convey your point accurately.  Always remember what mums say to the kids: It's not what you say as much as how you say it.
> 
> Another thing is that this thread is generally considered a hot topic for obvious reasons and most, very quickly, end up closed.  So far it has successfully carried a debate and interesting discussion over many pages and most of the posters on here are enjoying this.  Sadly, over the last couple of days it has threatened to evolve from a discussion into an argument.  I think I speak on behalf of the majority when I say we would like to avoid that at all costs.



I think we are having a nice debate here. Both sides of the coin are getting expressed and no one is accusing any particular person of being anything. It would be dissapointing if it were closed. 

Regarding the hostility issue I agree but I do fully intend to express a dislike of those who fall into the catagory I talk about. I have no respect for those people however I have made an effort to those who are not like that not to feel hostility from me.


----------



## joolz1910

2Tiggies said:


> I'm with you Tracy.  Let it be noted, my post no. 338 was my final response to such posts.  Now, where were we before we were so rudely interrupted?!



I remember one lad I taught several years ago. He was very disruptive and angry all the time - I just couldn't get through to him. One day he told me that he would be missing the first two weeks of Year 8 because he was going to WDW with his family. We had our first conversation where he wasn't defensive/argumentative. It was lovely to see his face light up when he told me all about the rides he was going to go on.


----------



## scojos

2Tiggies said:


> I'm with you Tracy.  Let it be noted, my post no. 338 was my final response to such posts.  Now, where were we before we were so rudely interrupted?!



not sure Lee, but obviously you are nicer than luke and myself as you had a response
anyway, im struggling with my 3 weeks planning, have you done all yours, as you seem like the only other obsessive planner on here!
i think all teachers have mild OCD.
now thats a contreversial comment....
tracy


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> I remember one lad I taught several years ago. He was very disruptive and angry all the time - I just couldn't get through to him. One day he told me that he would be missing the first two weeks of Year 8 because he was going to WDW with his family. We had our first conversation where he wasn't defensive/argumentative. It was lovely to see his face light up when he told me all about the rides he was going to go on.



 thats lovely...

i have to confess that last night in chat i was saying i felt like a stalker, everytime i seem to post at the moment its either behind you or 2tiggies

obviously as teachers we have too much time on our hands during the holidays


----------



## joolz1910

scojos said:


> :
> 
> i have to confess that last night in chat i was saying i felt like a stalker, everytime i seem to post at the moment its either behind you or 2tiggies
> 
> obviously as teachers we have too much time on our hands during the holidays



Yes, we'd better watch out, if we keep posting at this rate, we'll log on one day to find out we've been made mods.


----------



## luke

scojos said:


> obviously as teachers we have too much time on our hands during the holidays



BLEH I was back to work today.  Not long til I get a free jolly to Spain tho.  Just need to find a room to lock all the kids in and it'll be


----------



## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> I remember one lad I taught several years ago. He was very disruptive and angry all the time - I just couldn't get through to him. One day he told me that he would be missing the first two weeks of Year 8 because he was going to WDW with his family. We had our first conversation where he wasn't defensive/argumentative. It was lovely to see his face light up when he told me all about the rides he was going to go on.



I bet your face lit up too!  It is always the "small things" that are the big deal!  



scojos said:


> not sure Lee, but obviously you are nicer than luke and myself as you had a response
> anyway, im struggling with my 3 weeks planning, have you done all yours, as you seem like the only other obsessive planner on here!
> i think all teachers have mild OCD.
> now thats a contreversial comment....
> tracy



Actually, I think most people who are on the boards daily have issues with planning a little too, er .... what is the word.....?  Enthusiastically! 

I have my ADRs sorted so that is one thing under the belt.  I must admit, I felt a bit lost for the first few days.  Then I got stuck into putting together my "Break the News" pack for DD.  I was trying to think of a way to tell her without actually saying the word so now that I know what I want to do I am trying to source all my info and resources.  This is the fun part.


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> Yes, we'd better watch out, if we keep posting at this rate, we'll log on one day to find out we've been made mods.



 relax, they have just nobbled kenny


----------



## 2Tiggies

luke said:


> BLEH I was back to work today.  Not long til I get a free jolly to Spain tho.  Just need to find a room to lock all the kids in and it'll be



Aren't you worried they might find a room to lock you in?  Although if it has a telly and is well stocked .....


----------



## joolz1910

luke said:


> BLEH I was back to work today.  Not long til I get a free jolly to Spain tho.  Just need to find a room to lock all the kids in and it'll be



Why do you lock the kids in? We just take them drinking with us - they hold the coats while we fight.


----------



## scojos

joolz1910 said:


> Yes, we'd better watch out, if we keep posting at this rate, we'll log on one day to find out we've been made mods.





luke said:


> BLEH I was back to work today.  Not long til I get a free jolly to Spain tho.  Just need to find a room to lock all the kids in and it'll be



come on luke, dont forget to steal their money before you go to the bar!!



2Tiggies said:


> I bet your face lit up too!  It is always the "small things" that are the big deal!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I think most people who are on the boards daily have issues with planning a little too, er .... what is the word.....?  Enthusiastically!
> 
> I have my ADRs sorted so that is one thing under the belt.  I must admit, I felt a bit lost for the first few days.  Then I got stuck into putting together my "Break the News" pack for DD.  I was trying to think of a way to tell her without actually saying the word so* now that I know what I want to do *I am trying to source all my info and resources.  This is the fun part.



finally my first multi quote

come on then share, what are you going to do?


----------



## 2Tiggies

scojos said:


> i have to confess that last night in chat i was saying i felt like a stalker, everytime i seem to post at the moment its either behind you or 2tiggies



Actually I have noticed of late that the boards, especially this one, have been very quiet and there just seems to be a small core of posters at the moment.  I don't know if that is because we are presently in one of the main breaks where many have taken their trip now, or that the major planning issues like ADRs for the summer holiday travellers are taken care of.  Anyway, with fewer people at the moment, there is a higher chance of posting alonside the same person fairly regularly.  Anyhow, who cares?  I quite like it when you turn up next to me!


----------



## scojos

2Tiggies said:


> I quite like it when you turn up next to me!



im glad, it would be very awkward if you didnt

i agree, that it is quite on both this board and the comm board, i do think that alot of people are away, but we have more time on our hands, i certainly am checking a few times through the day to see whats new, which i wouldnt normally do on a workday.
on monday ill go back to "manic" for 6 weeks, so have to dis when i can.
i dis...do you?
tx


----------



## 2Tiggies

scojos said:


> come on then share, what are you going to do?



A few years ago, to encourage relatively healthy eating at mealtimes I started a Menu Night at home, which falls on a Friday or Saturday.  Basically DD earns credits for making healthy choices.  There are bonus points for those she makes of her own accord.  No penalty for taking crisps over an apple, but apple scores points.  It has been such a success I still do it.  Every Thursday evening she is presented with a menu which I put together with a list of fun entrees, beverages and desserts.  She gets to tick the boxes and gives it to me the next day. 

I thought I would put together a Downtown Disney menu listing her favourite places, Goofys, Candy Cauldron and Ghiradellis.  When she gets the menu the night before we fly she will finally put two and two together.  In case she thinks I am just doing another "theme evening" I am doing a fun travel pack for her with itinerary, stationery, puzzles, etc which is for the flight.  It should keep her occupied for a few hours on the plane! Still early stages. Oh, and really off topic too.  Sorry folks.


----------



## scojos

2Tiggies said:


> A few years ago, to encourage relatively healthy eating at mealtimes I started a Menu Night at home, which falls on a Friday or Saturday.  Basically DD earns credits for making healthy choices.  There are bonus points for those she makes of her own accord.  No penalty for taking crisps over an apple, but apple scores points.  It has been such a success I still do it.  Every Thursday evening she is presented with a menu which I put together with a list of fun entrees, beverages and desserts.  She gets to tick the boxes and gives it to me the next day.
> 
> I thought I would put together a Downtown Disney menu listing her favourite places, Goofys, Candy Cauldron and Ghiradellis.  When she gets the menu the night before we fly she will finally put two and two together.  In case she thinks I am just doing another "theme evening" I am doing a fun travel pack for her with itinerary, stationery, puzzles, etc which is for the flight.  It should keep her occupied for a few hours on the plane! Still early stages. Oh, and really off topic too.  Sorry folks.



omg thats amazing, if you go on allears.net you can get the ingredients to actally make some o fthe dishes....
let us know how your planning goes


----------



## Danauk

luke said:


> BLEH I was back to work today. Not long til I get a free jolly to Spain tho. Just need to find a room to lock all the kids in and it'll be


 
At least your 'free jolly' is to Spain, teaching primary school my 'jolly' this year is 3 days at an activity centre near Birmingham with year 4 - 6! Oh and next years trip is over my birthday!!


----------



## 2Tiggies

scojos said:


> omg thats amazing, if you go on allears.net you can get the ingredients to actally make some o fthe dishes....
> let us know how your planning goes



I have seen the menus, thanks.  However I am not making any of the dishes.  Her menu is, instead of picking an item, to pick the CS where we will eat that night.  I don't know if she will click that she is actually picking the place in DTD for real.  That is where the pack an itinerary come in.  At the bottom of the pack will be a card saying "Yes, we are going to Disney tomorrow!"  I have been downloading clip art to make "paper sleeves" for a set of twistable colour pencils with the Disney characters on (like you get crayola papers on the crayons) so each will have a Disney character with the colour, e.g. Winnie the Blue and a pic of Pooh on the blue one, etc.  Hope I manage to pull it off okay.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Danauk said:


> At least your 'free jolly' is to Spain, teaching primary school my 'jolly' this year is 3 days at an activity centre near Birmingham with year 4 - 6! Oh and next years trip is over my birthday!!



But seriously guys, do you not all absolutely hate residentials??

I worry myself sick from the moment we get on the coach til I hand them back to their parents! And I count them constantly!! 

I loved going back today knowing that my residential was over and that I could just enjoy my teaching! 

I think next year I will strike that week


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

2Tiggies said:


> I have seen the menus, thanks.  However I am not making any of the dishes.  Her menu is, instead of picking an item, to pick the CS where we will eat that night.  I don't know if she will click that she is actually picking the place in DTD for real.  That is where the pack an itinerary come in.  At the bottom of the pack will be a card saying "Yes, we are going to Disney tomorrow!"  I have been downloading clip art to make "paper sleeves" for a set of twistable colour pencils with the Disney characters on (like you get crayola papers on the crayons) so each will have a Disney character with the colour, e.g. Winnie the Blue and a pic of Pooh on the blue one, etc.  Hope I manage to pull it off okay.





What a magical experience!!


----------



## joolz1910

howlongtillsummer? said:


> But seriously guys, do you not all absolutely hate residentials??
> 
> I worry myself sick from the moment we get on the coach til I hand them back to their parents! And I count them constantly!!
> 
> I loved going back today knowing that my residential was over and that I could just enjoy my teaching!
> 
> I think next year I will strike that week



I like residentials, I just don't like organising/being in charge of them. The last trip we did, we had to do a risk assessment that predicted the 'risk' involved of stepping off the bus on to the pavement.


----------



## luke

joolz1910 said:


> I like residentials, I just don't like organising/being in charge of them. The last trip we did, we had to do a risk assessment that predicted the 'risk' involved of stepping off the bus on to the pavement.



I've only done one so far, but it was just me and a TA taking some sixth formers to Spain, so I did feel the pressure of 'being in charge', in fact my sicth formers now regularly shout "risk assessment" at me in homage to what I would shout at them any time they got near a road 

Next trip my HoF and also an assistant head are going too, so I'm hoping to have a bit of the pressure taken off me.

Anyway, it's a free holiday, I can't believe we don't have to pay for the pleasure...


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

I hate risk assessment - I always end up with very high numbers - what does that tell you!?

Hats off to you taking them abroad with a TA! 

You couldn't pay me enough, free holiday or not!!!


----------



## melly

howlongtillsummer? said:


> I hate risk assessment - I always end up with very high numbers - what does that tell you!?
> 
> !!



Well if you are a teacher and you get big high figures it means you are overestimating the risk unless your school is in the lebanon


----------



## EPCOTFANROD

My free jolly is to Edinburgh.  My 7th year in a row. Edinburgh is a lovely city, but seven years in a row can get quite   tough going on 3-4 hours sleep a night.


----------



## Danauk

howlongtillsummer? said:


> But seriously guys, do you not all absolutely hate residentials??
> 
> I worry myself sick from the moment we get on the coach til I hand them back to their parents! And I count them constantly!!
> 
> I loved going back today knowing that my residential was over and that I could just enjoy my teaching!
> 
> I think next year I will strike that week


 
I love doing residentials. This year will be my 19th one (in 12 years of teaching.) The ones we take our kids on are to really well supervised activity centres (ranging from camping in tents to centres with en-suite rooms), we just go around with a group of kids during the day and join in with the activities. The only bit I don't like is trying to get them to sleep on the 1st night! Taking 8 year olds though we do often get a bit of crying and home sickness on the 1st night. I am shattered though after it all! But being on call 24 hours can be draining. I won't go to bed until all my children are asleep. Than can take a while, then you have to be up before them to make sure they are all up, showered, dressed and rooms made before breakfast.


----------



## Kath2003

melly said:


> Well if you are a teacher and you get big high figures it means you are overestimating the risk unless your school is in the lebanon



School risk assessments are like no other; you literally need a 15-20 page document to take kids half a mile to the theatre in town. It takes hours to organize a trip which is why in many schools they are declining in frequency. Personally I think trips have huge educational value but the responsibility and paperwork that come with taking one on is immense so I can see why people don't/won't.


----------



## melly

Kath2003 said:


> School risk assessments are like no other; you literally need a 15-20 page document to take kids half a mile to the theatre in town. It takes hours to organize a trip which is why in many schools they are declining in frequency. Personally I think trips have huge educational value but the responsibility and paperwork that come with taking one on is immense so I can see why people don't/won't.



Well that's just rediculous then and precisely why people like myself think there is a gross amount of money wastage in public sector working (not just teaching) I appreciate though that this messing around is not because of the teachers.

Going back to the earlier example of stepping off a coach , how preposterous to even have to consider it. Was there anything identified beyond the blindingly obvious that a fall could happen? After identifying did anyone do anything about it (safety nets, mats) probably not because. That would have been stupid. Its nothing more than a box ticking exersize unless your doing it for taking kids on hazardous activities


----------



## joolz1910

melly said:


> Going back to the earlier example of stepping off a coach , how preposterous to even have to consider it. Was there anything identified beyond the blindingly obvious that a fall could happen? After identifying did anyone do anything about it (safety nets, mats) probably not because. That would have been stupid. Its nothing more than a box ticking exersize unless your doing it for taking kids on hazardous activities



I agree - it was absolutely ridiculous. My jaw dropped open when I was told that I had to put 'measures' into place. These were 15 year old students going to the local theatre! I thought that I had been misunderstood and explained that the students wouldn't have to cross a road. It's not that my school is over-zealous, this is how risk assessments are for schools.

I had to write down that a member of staff would supervise embarking/disembarking and that we would ensure that students did this in single file. Good grief.


----------



## tttessa

mmmm - risk assessments may be box ticking, but they do show that someone has actually thought of the problems that may be encountered....  

We had one (I was a parent helper) where a Y1 child fell down the steps to the coach toilet - while just getting off the bus, walking down the main aisle, turned to his mate, fell  - and broke his arm - you can bet that was "risk assessed" properly for every subsequent  trip and no further accidents of that nature have happened since - so they can be useful.... 

Yes they are "silly things that could happen anywhere", but when my kids go on a trip, I'm glad someone has actually taken the time and thought of the risks and ticked the boxes...  Kids are careless, accidents happen, but some can be protected against.

Tessa


----------



## scojos

tttessa said:


> mmmm - risk assessments may be box ticking, but they do show that someone has actually thought of the problems that may be encountered....
> 
> We had one (I was a parent helper) where a Y1 child fell down the steps to the coach toilet - while just getting off the bus, walking down the main aisle, turned to his mate, fell  - and broke his arm - you can bet that was "risk assessed" properly for every subsequent  trip and no further accidents of that nature have happened since - so they can be useful....
> 
> Yes they are "silly things that could happen anywhere", but when my kids go on a trip, I'm glad someone has actually taken the time and thought of the risks and ticked the boxes...  Kids are careless, accidents happen, but some can be protected against.
> 
> Tessa





i took a group of kids ice skating massive risks kid broke his ankle...i learnt the hard way...4 months off school


----------



## Kath2003

melly said:


> Well that's just rediculous then and precisely why people like myself think there is a gross amount of money wastage in public sector working (not just teaching) I appreciate though that this messing around is not because of the teachers.



And of course teachers aren't paid to carry out any risk assessments so many see it as an additional workload that they simply do not have the time to carry out on top of their usual teaching responsibilities. 



> Going back to the earlier example of stepping off a coach , how preposterous to even have to consider it. Was there anything identified beyond the blindingly obvious that a fall could happen? After identifying did anyone do anything about it (safety nets, mats) probably not because. That would have been stupid. Its nothing more than a box ticking exersize unless your doing it for taking kids on hazardous activities



Yep, but schools have to cover their backs to show that they did everything possible to ensure that the children were safe during the trip. We have "parental" responsibility for the children in our care - we have to show that we would consider the risks as a parent would. As other posters have said, they help to highlight any problems that you otherwise may not have considered (e.g. how do you safely get 60 school children across a busy main road?). Taking kids on a trip is stressful anyway.


----------



## howlongtillsummer?

Well said Kath


----------



## 2Tiggies

Kath2003 said:


> Yep, but schools have to cover their backs to show that they did everything possible to ensure that the children were safe during the trip. We have "parental" responsibility for the children in our care - we have to show that we would consider the risks as a parent would. As other posters have said, they help to highlight any problems that you otherwise may not have considered (e.g. how do you safely get 60 school children across a busy main road?). Taking kids on a trip is stressful anyway.



As parents we do it all the time.  For example, I will not, under any circumstances, allow my daughter to get out of the car on the "road side".  She has to climb out on the pavement.  The only differences are that I only have one child to keep an eye on and that I don't use a piece of paper to check the boxes.  However I do appreciate the fact that she is as safe at school as anywhere else. Thanks teachers.   I know it's a pain and yes, a lot of it is a bit over the top, but better too much than too little when it comes to our kids.


----------



## wishspirit

2Tiggies said:


> A few years ago, to encourage relatively healthy eating at mealtimes I started a Menu Night at home, which falls on a Friday or Saturday.  Basically DD earns credits for making healthy choices.  There are bonus points for those she makes of her own accord.  No penalty for taking crisps over an apple, but apple scores points.  It has been such a success I still do it.  Every Thursday evening she is presented with a menu which I put together with a list of fun entrees, beverages and desserts.  She gets to tick the boxes and gives it to me the next day.
> 
> I thought I would put together a Downtown Disney menu listing her favourite places, Goofys, Candy Cauldron and Ghiradellis.  When she gets the menu the night before we fly she will finally put two and two together.  In case she thinks I am just doing another "theme evening" I am doing a fun travel pack for her with itinerary, stationery, puzzles, etc which is for the flight.  It should keep her occupied for a few hours on the plane! Still early stages. Oh, and really off topic too.  Sorry folks.



That sounds like a fantastic idea! I am so glad it is helping her to make healthy choices, and that you get to have a bit of Disney fun with it too! 



joolz1910 said:


> I like residentials, I just don't like organising/being in charge of them. The last trip we did, we had to do a risk assessment that predicted the 'risk' involved of stepping off the bus on to the pavement.



I work in a playscheme for children with special needs and you wouldn't believe the paperwork! Every child has their own individual risk assessment, as well as for the site, staff, medication, equipment, trips out- all of them have to be done by more than just one person by 'thought showering ideas', then signed off by a supervisor. I have been working there for ages, to the point I know all the paperwork inside out so I end up being given it all by my bosses which they then sign to say is done. We are drowning in folders full of the blooming things!

I understand why, if the children I look after were my kids I would want every procedure in place to know they are safe and happy. However even going out to the local park is a major undertaking!


----------



## 2Tiggies

Thought I would add my view on the flip side of the coin regarding risk assessments.  

My daughter's school had a new climbing frame erected in the playground last year.  Naturally the kids were delighted.  Each day one class got a day to play on it and it rotates so it isn't a free for all and there is some element of control. Fair enough.  However imagine my amusement when DD returned from school one day and announced "No more climbing frame".  It turned out someone had slipped and grazed their arm.  So there was no climbing frame for a week while a new risk assessment was carried out.  One of the staff were talking about it when I droped DD at the breakfast club the next morning and was slightly taken aback when I pointed out that only a few days earlier my daughter had collided with another child in the playground and they had smacked their head together. Yet my child was not returned to me (thankfully) with her head retained by the school to assess the dangers .....   On that same day one of her little classmates had caught her fingers in a swinging door and had to be taken to the A&E.  Yet I noticed that every door in the school was still hanging in its rightful place .....

It is just an example of situations where I can see why, sometimes get infuriated with all the red tape and as in the above case, found it too amusing to get angry or annoyed even if I had wanted to. An above average sense of humour makes life a lot easier to tackle.  If you don't like something, do something about it.  If you can't change it, laugh about it and move on.


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## joolz1910

This is why there are fewer school trips - the red tape and masses of paperwork make it an onerous task and the burden of responsibility is huge. Unfortunately, we live in a litigious climate and schools have to cover themselves, so it's a vicious circle.


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## stephensmum

I'm involved in the running of a church holiday club that takes place the first week of the summer holidays, it's run for many years & it was thought that it may have had to end when the new risk assessments came into force.  Thankfully, everybody 'mucked in' & after the enitial major changes we have just been able to add any extras as & when.  It's run for a full week, for 80 children & is free, so we feel very lucky that we have managed to comply, sadly, a lot of others had to close.


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## joolz1910

stephensmum said:


> I'm involved in the running of a church holiday club that takes place the first week of the summer holidays, it's run for many years & it was thought that it may have had to end when the new risk assessments came into force.  Thankfully, everybody 'mucked in' & after the enitial major changes we have just been able to add any extras as & when.  It's run for a full week, for 80 children & is free, so we feel very lucky that we have managed to comply, sadly, a lot of others had to close.



My kids go to one of these every year and it is great.


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## 2Tiggies

joolz1910 said:


> My kids go to one of these every year and it is great.



My DD is doing one this week and is loving it.  It also gives Gran a few hours to herself as she cares for DD while I am at work.


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## katytrott

stephensmum said:


> I'm involved in the running of a church holiday club that takes place the first week of the summer holidays, it's run for many years & it was thought that it may have had to end when the new risk assessments came into force.  Thankfully, everybody 'mucked in' & after the enitial major changes we have just been able to add any extras as & when.  It's run for a full week, for 80 children & is free, so we feel very lucky that we have managed to comply, sadly, a lot of others had to close.



I'm involved in our church holiday club as we speak - still going strong with kids coming from all over our local villages. Such great fun and a great way of reaching out to the local community. 

The main problem we had this time was every single helper had  to be CRB checked regardless of having one with a different orgainsation, or even the same organisation. Those of us who are CRB checked for being volunteer helper in the church kids group week in, week out, still had to be checked, for doing this extra programme, even though it was with the same church.

Didn't deter us though and can't imagine it ever will!


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## joolz1910

My kids go to an Easter club and a summer club. The company DH works for makes donations to local charities, so we nominated both churches and my eldest DD's Brownie group. They have all received sizeable donations from my Dh's employer.  We didn't even realise Dh employer did this until last year!


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## melly

tttessa said:


> mmmm - risk assessments may be box ticking, but they do show that someone has actually thought of the problems that may be encountered....



That is not what risk assesement is about, it is about identifying risks and putting measures in place. Merely thinking about them and documenting them is box ticking, @rse covering but not true risk assessing. 

Where do you think the true bona fide risk assessment is done in this example of a bus? It is done at the design stage of the bus by other people not teachers. People falling on / off / during bus transportation is prevented by several design features. Floor not slippy, toe bars on edges of steps, steps not to steep or shallow and are elongated enough. The bus has adequate light (either artificial or enough surface area of windows). There are handrails to hold onto when getting off and on and travelling through the bus / coach. There is signage telling people to sit while the bus is moving etc..etc..etc. 

All of these features make the overall risk of falling extreemly small hence no need to risk assess formally. How do we know its small? Well only a fraction of a % of people making a journey end up with an injury. Bus / coach companies dont winch people off and place special padded mats down for people getting off the bus, do they? 

In this example where the teacher in question took the kids to a theatre on a coach and didnt even have to cross a road a formal risk assessmet is a waste of time. It is perfectly adequate for the teacher (within health and safety law **) to dynamically and non formally assess it at the time and put in the only control measure required which is to tell the kids to alight in an orderly fashion and hold the rail. You dont need to document that nor do you need a RA to identify the risk. To document this in some 15 - 20 page epic is as stupid as using the PUWER regs to identify that a teacher must be trained to use a pen before marking kids books with it and that the act of using a pen needs to be risk assessed. (though strictly true)
_
** *The only bit Im unsure about this comment is if there are additions to regulations when groups of kids are involved*_



tttessa said:


> We had one (I was a parent helper) where a Y1 child fell down the steps to the coach toilet - while just getting off the bus, walking down the main aisle, turned to his mate, fell  - and broke his arm



So what? Accidents happen. There are millions of coach journeys where this does not happen. Millions of people get off and on busses without falling. Those that do fall more often than not do not get hurt. It is an unbelievably small amount that do hence a risk assessment (formal documented one) is simply not required- 




tttessa said:


> you can bet that was "risk assessed" properly for every subsequent  trip and no further accidents of that nature have happened since - so they can be useful....



Exceptionally naive way of looking at it and almost certainly a view of someone who doesnt know an awefull lot about risk assesement. (no offence, you simply may never do them a lot) Look at it a different way, the journey was probably made many many times without incident WITHOUT as risk assessment. It is quite possible and even probable that the new risk assessment has achieved nothing and has nothing to do with the fact that there is no incidents recently. 



tttessa said:


> Yes they are "silly things that could happen anywhere", but when my kids go on a trip, I'm glad someone has actually taken the time and thought of the risks and ticked the boxes...  Kids are careless, accidents happen, but some can be protected against.
> 
> Tessa



If that rests your mind then so be it but sorry to burst your bubble it will have no actual effect unless there is some "meat" in the assessement. Things like getting off and on a bus do not require it. If the kids were going white water rafting or on some over night expedition then you would expect a significant risk assesement will all kinds of plans, preparation, contingencies etc..


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## melly

Kath2003 said:


> Yep, but schools have to cover their backs to show that they did everything possible to ensure that the children were safe during the trip. We have "parental" responsibility for the children in our care - we have to show that we would consider the risks as a parent would. As other posters have said, they help to highlight any problems that you otherwise may not have considered (e.g. how do you safely get 60 school children across a busy main road?). Taking kids on a trip is stressful anyway.



Refer to my post above...no point regurgetating it all



2Tiggies said:


> As parents we do it all the time.  For example, I will not, under any circumstances, allow my daughter to get out of the car on the "road side".  She has to climb out on the pavement.  The only differences are that I only have one child to keep an eye on and that I don't use a piece of paper to check the boxes.  However I do appreciate the fact that she is as safe at school as anywhere else. Thanks teachers. .



That is what is known as a dynamic risk assesment. Perfectly acceptable and usefull. Formally documenting it for the bus example is pointless much like if you wrote down in your house that you dont let your kids get out on the road side of the car also adds no value. 



2Tiggies said:


> I know it's a pain and yes, a lot of it is a bit over the top, but better too much than too little when it comes to our kids.



I dissagree. Firstly going OTT discredits proper risk assessments and people can become complacent and treat them with contempt. Think of it as if every day the fire alarm went off because it was faulty, what will happen if the real thing occurs? People will just meander along dragging their heels. Secondly they take time that could be used for properly risk assessing something else. Say in our coach trip we got off and went white water rafting. By spending so much silly time doing a 15 pager on the act of getting the bus it is more likely that something gets missed on the actual thing that really does need risk assessing.


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## melly

2Tiggies said:


> I can see why, sometimes get infuriated with all the red tape and as in the above case,  on.



A lot of the so called red tape is a bit of a myth. People go around claiming "its elf n safety gorn mad" but in reality its peoples misunderstanding of the rules and what is required therefore they go into overkill.


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## 2Tiggies

melly said:


> A lot of the so called red tape is a bit of a myth. People go around claiming "its elf n safety gorn mad" but in reality its peoples misunderstanding of the rules and what is required therefore they go into overkill.



Actually there is a lot of truth in that  - but I think that discussion, which would get quite invovled, would require another thread. I suspect a discussion on actual government regulations vs perceived ones which are quoted as gospel by the majority of people (who have been given information selectively in such a way as to change the story entirely) may not be appropriate for this forum.  Interesting, yes ....


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## iluvtot

katytrott said:


> I'm involved in our church holiday club as we speak - still going strong with kids coming from all over our local villages. Such great fun and a great way of reaching out to the local community.
> 
> The main problem we had this time was every single helper had  to be CRB checked regardless of having one with a different orgainsation, or even the same organisation. Those of us who are CRB checked for being volunteer helper in the church kids group week in, week out, still had to be checked, for doing this extra programme, even though it was with the same church.
> 
> Didn't deter us though and can't imagine it ever will!



The kids and I have been helpers at a community event run by local churches in the Summer hols for years. This started really small over 10 years ago, but is now huge, because of it's popularity. It offers kids clubs, and afternoon activities and entertainment for the adults; aswell as evening entertainment.  Every volunteer has to be CRB checked, and that is an enormous expense that has to be accounted for in the budget, as mostly everything is free.

As for risk assessments', we have just acquired a new little kitty, who thinks she was Houdini in her previous life I am having to do a risk assessment everytime I leave her in a room by herself for a few mins!!!

Jules x


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## Pegasus928

This thread seems to be going seriously off topic over the last page or two so it would be a good idea to try to bring it back on track.
As 2Tiggies said if there are some of you that would like to discuss health and safety, task risk assessments or PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations for those uninitiated amongst us ) then maybe this would be best served with its own thread in the community section.


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## fairytale

I only asked what the consequences had been for people taking their children out of school during term time 

Its a shame I cant add the number of people who have posted to my question, on my thread count. Please


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## melly

Pegasus928 said:


> This thread seems to be going seriously off topic over the last page or two so it would be a good idea to try to bring it back on track.
> As 2Tiggies said if there are some of you that would like to discuss health and safety, task risk assessments or PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations for those uninitiated amongst us ) then maybe this would be best served with its own thread in the community section.



so can I go back to writing about how teachers are lazy doppers who are failures in the hustle and bustle of real work thus choose to teach for an easy life


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## 2Tiggies

Right, lets keep this thread open and on topic.  Anyone else want to share some views or personal experiences on term time holidays?


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## melly

2Tiggies said:


> Right, lets keep this thread open and on topic.  Anyone else want to share some views or personal experiences on term time holidays?




yup

mine were great. Much cheaper, little or no queues and the weather was just great, not to hot nor cold. Awesome.


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## scojos

fairytale said:


> I only asked what the consequences had been for people taking their children out of school during term time
> 
> Its a shame I cant add the number of people who have posted to my question, on my thread count. Please



worst case scenario ? your child will llose their place at school, and be offered another school place at a school the other side of the borough, you will be fined and possibly put in prison.  you will be branded as bad parents, ewo (educational welfare officer) and social services may be involved.
that was the worst case scenario.

is that back on thread enough???


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## fairytale

melly said:


> yup
> 
> mine were great. Much cheaper, little or no queues and the weather was just great, not to hot nor cold. Awesome.



My thoughts exactly 

You know if the Weather in August was the same as October I would deal with the crowds and make use of been able to go for 4/5 weeks at a time, but for us as a family October in one word is PERFECT !!!


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## stephensmum

fairytale said:


> My thoughts exactly
> 
> You know if the Weather in August was the same as October I would deal with the crowds and make use of been able to go for 4/5 weeks at a time, but for us as a family October in one word is PERFECT !!!


We tend to go in August but I would not be opposed to going in term time, my DS12 would be though as he really likes to achieve his 100% attendence.  I can think of many reasons why i would prefer term time weather, crowds, price  but over the years we have got used to it.  One year we went to Spain in August & the heat was unbearable, really ruined the holiday.  We went in term time when DS was 7 as we were going with family & my mum & dad wouldn't have coped with the heat.  We had no problem with the school, just filled in a form & it was authorised. I think everyone needs to decide what's best for their own family & be willing to fight for their right to decide if an absence is refused.


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## joolz1910

A parent governor at my DD's school has just had his request for 4 days refused. His mother is getting married abroad, so he had no choice about dates and he obviously wants to take his children to the wedding. They got a standard letter saying that their children's attendance would be closely monitored in future. He felt really slighted as he sees this as a necessary circumstance and he was offended as his children are model students with an exemplary attendance record. I told him to ignore it and enjoy the wedding.

I think more Headteachers are adopting this zero-tolerance policy. It wouldn't deter me, as I would see it as a matter of _courtesy only_ to inform the Head about my holiday dates.


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## janiebubble

Today I have had a student - second year sixth form/year 13 which ever way you like it casually drop into conversation at the end of the lesson at the very end of the day (and his last lesson with me this week) that he won't be here next week as he'll be on holiday in New York ... its his birthday treat (for a birthday last December!) and he's already had 7 days off this year for holidays plus numerous other random illness days.  The reality of sixth form education is that there are 30/31 weeks teaching from September to the start of the A level exams.  He's now missed close on 10% of the year to go on holiday - and I was expected to produce all of next weeks lesson notes for him there and then (which I was able to do) so he didn't miss anything!!


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## scojos

sorry janie, but i would not have done that, give him the work i mean.  if that makes me i bad teacher, so be it, but at that age they are there by choice, and its a contract, you agree to be there to teach them, and they agree to be there and learn.
they are not furfilling there part of the contract, im suprised he still gets ema (if thats the case) and that his place is still available to him...
ok flame suit ready...whos first?


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## fairytale

scojos said:


> sorry janie, but i would not have done that, give him the work i mean.  if that makes me i bad teacher, so be it, but at that age they are there by choice, and its a contract, you agree to be there to teach them, and they agree to be there and learn.
> they are not furfilling there part of the contract, im suprised he still gets ema (if thats the case) and that his place is still available to him...
> ok flame suit ready...whos first?



No flames from me, I'm still worrying about my prison sentence


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## scojos

fairytale said:


> No flames from me, I'm still worrying about my prison sentence



as i stated in a previous statement, i have a girl in my tutor group who has had an attendance since sept of less than 60% she has a ewo, but no fines and deff no prison.  i gave you the worst case scenario.... trust me if your kids have attendance above 95% the school will not even blink an eye


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## UKDEB

We're simply going back over old ground as far as the original topic is concerned.  Everyone who wanted to have their say on that has had ample opportunity to do so - the thread has been active for well over two weeks - and it really has run its course now.  Thanks for everyone's contributions.


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