# disabilities assistance Abuse



## markpenske

Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system. 

You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.

Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!

Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.

Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do. 

We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.

Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.


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## Selket

markpenske said:


> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.



I use an ECV at WDW but not at home.   My badly arthritic knees cannot take that much walking.  However I can park and walk some - even into some attractions back when there was FP.   I don't know what advantage I got other than being able to sit - most lines are mainstreamed.  I've waited longer when I needed to stay in the ECV up until boarding.    It's not obvious how painful my knees are after walking.   I try not to judge anyone I see with a DAS or WC/ECV because I know there are many hidden disabilities.   I can't tell it affects my vacation.  

Maybe more people like me are likely to do a Disney vacation because they can use an ECV?   I know it's the only vacation I enjoy anymore because everywhere we try to go the walking keeps me up in pain much of the night - and I don't get to see all the things I want to see in the daytime. 

I think the handicap parking and support animals are things that exist everywhere and not just Disney so I don't know that the abuse of them is greater there.

**edited to add that one thing they "used to go out of the way" was to help those with food allergies - the chefs would come out, etc.   However now they have done a great job of making it easier to see what allergens are in what food (for major allergens).  It's nice not to have to call in advance to arrange meals, etc. like I used to have to do for one of my kids.   Rather than curtailing the food service, I think they've made it easier to access the information.


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## Belle1962

I have a handicap tag but “look” normal. I use an ecv at Disney but not at home. At home I just don’t go out much. When booking a flight I have to get medication from my doctor to control my allergies since I never know if an animal will be in the cabin. And I foresee the current das system changing since all people have to do is look on the internet and see what some people are saying to get a das for-I won’t spell out the reasons again.  So yes there are a lot of abuses but not everything is as it seems.


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## OurBigTrip

markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.
> 
> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!
> 
> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.


The previous system was much more generous, but it wasn’t just abuse by the non-disabled that led to the DAS, it was overuse by the disabled of a too generous policy.

it simply isn’t feasible to allow everyone with any kind of disability immediate access to the FP line.


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## lanejudy

I think "disability" has taken on broader meaning in the past couple of decades and with that society in general has become more accepting of those with different abilities.  The more traditional concept of "disabled" meaning a person in a wheelchair has expanded -- rightly so -- to include others who do not have need for a wheelchair but have legitimate disabilities as well.  And because society is more accepting, I think more people are willing to publicly acknowledge they have a disability and use the tools or services available to them.  Much of this may also be related to a generally aging population who no longer sit at home flipping through photo albums and reminiscing -- they are out creating more memories, even if it's at a slower pace than when they were younger.  

Fortunately, gone are the days when a disabled person was essentially a shut-in at an institution, unable to get around in the outside world and access what the rest of society took for granted.  

I have no doubts there are those who abuse the system for any perceived "perk" they think they'll get.  However, I really don't think that is a significant problem at WDW.  Using a wheelchair or a service dog or an HA parking spot gains a person pretty much nothing with regards to a "greater" experience.


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## DLgal

This is a matter of casting judgments when you don't know the whole story. I have a few friends with autistic kids and they have handicap placards. They were granted them because their kids have a tendency to elope and in parking lots that can be deadly, so the DMV will issue a placard for that reason, to minimize walking through large parking lots. You never know why anyone has a placard, but they're not very easy to get. You need to provide documented need (by a doctor). 

As for the DAS, again, you don't know what people are dealing with. Ever. Don't assume that you know what people deal with just by looking at them. 

As DAS users for over 12 years now for our autistic kids, we feel that Disney is still willing to go above and beyond to accommodate our needs, and have never been made to feel otherwise. When at the parks, we mind our own business and don't worry about who else is using a DAS and why. Disney doesn't seem to be overrun with "fakers." 

We have a friend who is a retired Marine, around 41, who appears strong and healthy at first glance. He got a DAS last month at DL because what no one can see when looking at him is that in his backpack was an oxygen tank. He is dealing with long Covid months after being hospitalized in the ICU, suffering from 2 strokes and a pulmonary embolism, and he gets fatigued after standing or walking for more than 15 minutes due to lung damage. Periodically, he needs to sit down and take hits off his oxygen tank. He also was basically blown up in Afghanistan by an IED and has a traumatic brain injury that left him with a lot of anxiety in crowded situations. Disney granted him a DAS no problem, but I'm sure some people might look at him and think he is taking advantage of the program.


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## gap2368

I do not think there is as much abuse as you think just more people in need of assistance.   on my last trip I hurt my heal I could not walk with my backpack ( that has medical supplies in it) with out a lot of trouble  but I used a wheelchair for it and pushed it  I was able to walk just fine with it. I am  sure I looked like a young person trying to take advantage of something but that was not the case.

I also use the DAS for sensory needs you sure can not see that just looking at me. like I said you really can not tell just by looking at someone wether or not they have a disability is there abuse probably yes just not so much that it made them change the system


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## DisneyOma

I got a DAS for the first time this trip. I haven't been to WDW in 4 years, since my last trip where I ended up in the ER. Two rides I never want to go on ever again are the shuttle to urgent care and an ambulance ride to the ER (even though Disney took very good care of me both times!) My anxiety had gone untreated for many years, I'm in my late 50's and walked 12 miles at WDW the other day. With DAS, the physical symptoms of my anxiety (pelvic floor disfunction) are at a minimum. Yeah, I can feel the PFD starting to rev up, but nowhere as bad as that trip 4 years ago. OP, do you think I'm cheating the system because DAS helps me stay in the park instead of being in my room half the day? 

I've seen a girl in a wheelchair with 2 service dogs on this trip, a woman with a golden retriever puppy in AK, and 11 people get on the bus with 1 family member in a scooter. The only advantage I see here is the last one, and the family actually questioned the CM and she said it was okay. I'm guessing they had been stopped for having too many people before. 

I've seen very few other guests in the FP queue this trip - we've been able to walk right up to the CM to get a time for the most part, and walk up to the tapstile to get access. I feel like if there are tons of people getting DAS then I'd be seeing a lot more of them in the queues and with the CMs at the entrance.


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## MS_Warrior

DisneyOma said:


> I've seen a girl in a wheelchair with 2 service dogs on this trip, a woman with a golden retriever puppy in AK, and 11 people get on the bus with 1 family member in a scooter. The only advantage I see here is the last one, and the family actually questioned the CM and she said it was okay. I'm guessing they had been stopped for having too many people before.



Actually, the bus is no advantage. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had to wait through 3 or 4 buses to get to the parks because they were full when they came to our bus stop. Also, scooters and wheelchairs are the last off the bus. Everyone else is already back at their room or they’re in the park long before we get off the bus.

When we first started going to Disney, I could walk the parks. We were able to ride far more rides and see more shows than we have been since I’ve had to use a scooter/wheelchair. Not a gripe in the least. I think Disney does more for disabled than other places, but I cannot imagine faking it in order to get some perceived advantage as the OP stated.

I’m glad you are able to get a DAS. I‘m thankful for Disney’s continued striving to help those of us who are disabled.


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## Groot

markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.



Yep, even see this kinda thing at home. Worst part is when they block a side or rear entry van from deploying the ramp because the offending car is parked right up against it.



markpenske said:


> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!



Yeah, especially since it’s easy to buy those vests and fake papers on Amazon/ebay.



markpenske said:


> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.



I too have the same disability, but have the version where I can walk, *BUT NOT FOR LONG DISTANCES,* so that’s why I bought my own personal powerchair. 

I’m glad sites like Spinlife exist for those of us who need a wheelchair, but can’t wait 6 months for a completely customized chair, or like me, who doesn’t want to seek insurance approval for a wheelchair that in the insurance company’s eyes, you DON’T NEED because you can “walk”, but completely ignore the fact that you still have a disability that results in limited mobility and you can’t go more than x amount of distance before you are completely drained of stamina/endurance.

But then again, those sites enable the fakers to buy themselves (and sometimes their kids) totally custom wheelchairs that cost $5,000+, no questions asked.



markpenske said:


> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.



Preach, brother, preach!


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## MikeOhio

The lack of fastpass right now is definitely driving more people to request a das as well.  Obviously not right but I know at least two families who made up reasons to get a das since fastpass wasn’t available


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## Tomizgrl13

Even though it has been said already, I just want to say, not everyone may have a physical disability that you can see. So I have both Crohns Disease, and Ankylosing Spondylitis. The Crohns can make it so that I might have to use the BR maybe 3-4 or more times in an hour, no matter what I try and do. If a line is say an hour long, thats me getting on and off the line that many times. People get angry, and think I'm cutting the line. I also risk the chance of not being in line when ready to board, and having to get back in line again, it's a nightmare and embarrassing. Also due to the AS I constantly have swelling in parts of my body and can't control when it happens, as well as 2 labral tears one in each of my hips. Sometimes I can walk ok, other times I can't, and although I don't need a wheel chair or device atm there are times when the constant moving and stopping and moving and stopping puts more strain on it and makes me worse. So there are times when waits are lower and i'm feeling ok and just get on the line, and everything is fine. Other times, I could be feeling fine, get to Disney, do a ride or 2, and then things turn on a dime. I can't control that. I have heard people look at me when I've I asked for a return time, or when I'm walking up to a ride, and say things like you don't look disabled, or I bet she's faking it. I never have more than 1 person with me (my BF for help and supervision, Disney isn't something I could EVER do on my own). So I don't doubt there are some people who do abuse it, but don't forget there are some of us who may not look disabled, but have different medical issues. 
One last thing I will say though, I do agree that there should maybe be 2 levels of DAS. Those with issues like mine, who can stay with the current system, and those who maybe need even more help and accessibility, where they can do more. Maybe try allowing them to sign up for 3 rides at a time, and if the wait is under say 30-40 mins, just let them on at that point. I do agree that some people may need more help than others.


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## Timandalicia

markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.
> 
> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!
> 
> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.


Good for you. Every advocate for those who truly needs the services needs to step up and complain to help shame the abuse of the system. I think it’s getting abused because we live in this “no shaming” society. Even on your thread here people are saying you don’t have the right because you don’t understand the situation? That’s Bull roar. You understand it completely. Keep up the good work.


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## Groot

Tomizgrl13 said:


> One last thing I will say though, I do agree that there should maybe be 2 levels of DAS. Those with issues like mine, who can stay with the current system, and those who maybe need even more help and accessibility, where they can do more. Maybe try allowing them to sign up for 3 rides at a time, and if the wait is under say 30-40 mins, just let them on at that point. I do agree that some people may need more help than others.



Yeah, there should be a seperate DAS that’s only for mobility issues, because for some rides you DO NEED to use a separate entrance because of stairs, narrow passageways, etc. in the regular line.



DisneyOma said:


> I got a DAS for the first time this trip. I haven't been to WDW in 4 years, since my last trip where I ended up in the ER. Two rides I never want to go on ever again are the shuttle to urgent care and an ambulance ride to the ER (even though Disney took very good care of me both times!) My anxiety had gone untreated for many years, I'm in my late 50's and walked 12 miles at WDW the other day. With DAS, the physical symptoms of my anxiety (pelvic floor disfunction) are at a minimum. Yeah, I can feel the PFD starting to rev up, but nowhere as bad as that trip 4 years ago. OP, do you think I'm cheating the system because DAS helps me stay in the park instead of being in my room half the day?
> 
> I've seen a girl in a wheelchair with 2 service dogs on this trip, a woman with a golden retriever puppy in AK, and 11 people get on the bus with 1 family member in a scooter. The only advantage I see here is the last one, and the family actually questioned the CM and she said it was okay. I'm guessing they had been stopped for having too many people before.
> 
> I've seen very few other guests in the FP queue this trip - we've been able to walk right up to the CM to get a time for the most part, and walk up to the tapstile to get access. I feel like if there are tons of people getting DAS then I'd be seeing a lot more of them in the queues and with the CMs at the entrance.



I think OP is talking about the abusers who BLATANTLY LIE about being disabled in order to get the front of the line privileges. (Example: People who use wheelchairs as “Shopping Carts”, fight over who gets to ride in the chair, tell their kids to fake a limp, and so on.)


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## Welsh_Dragon

In the U.K. we seem to largely minimise the risk of abuse by allowing organisations to request that anyone seeking assistance presents proof of registered disability. This usually also allows a carer to enter free of charge.


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## Gordo Gato

Groot said:


> Yeah, there should be a seperate DAS that’s only for mobility issues, because for some rides you DO NEED to use a separate entrance because of stairs, narrow passageways, etc. in the regular line.


I agree.  I had a really bad ankle injury (it left me with torn ligaments so poor stability and absent proprioception) and am fine everywhere except poorly lit damp steps like at splash. I just need to be able to see puddles or step edges and be confident where I’m putting my foot.  Several years ago I asked if I could bypass the stairs at splash, the CMs told me I had to use the main line or get a DAS to circumvent the stairs.  Guest services told me I didn’t need a DAS since it’s a mobility issue and to use an assist device. I don’t need a walker or a cane or a wheelchair: I just need to know where my foot is going and where the puddles are.

I just don’t ride splash mountain anymore and it is kind of cruddy that is the solution.

edited: for clarity


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## OurBigTrip

Gordo Gato said:


> I agree.  I had a really bad ankle injury and am fine everywhere except poorly lit damp steps like at splash. I just need to be able to see puddles or step edges and be confident where I’m putting my foot.  Several years ago I asked if I could bypass the stairs at splash, the CMs told me I had to use the main line or get a DAS to circumvent the stairs.  Guest services told me I didn’t need a DAS since it’s a mobility issue and to use an assist device. I don’t need a walker or a cane or a wheelchair: I just need to know where my foot is going and where the puddles are.
> 
> I just don’t ride splash mountain anymore and it is kind of cruddy that is the solution.



You were given bad information - you don't need a DAS to avoid the stairs, nor do you need to have an assistive device in order to avoid the stairs.  The CM at Splash should have just let you avoid the stairs, as the DAS has nothing to do with that kind of need.


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## OurBigTrip

Tomizgrl13 said:


> One last thing I will say though, I do agree that there should maybe be 2 levels of DAS. Those with issues like mine, who can stay with the current system, and those who maybe need even more help and accessibility, where they can do more. Maybe try allowing them to sign up for 3 rides at a time, and if the wait is under say 30-40 mins, just let them on at that point. I do agree that some people may need more help than others.



The problem with that idea, IMO, is that the idea is to provide equal access, not better access.


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## Selket

Groot said:


> I think OP is talking about the abusers who BLATANTLY LIE about being disabled in order to get the front of the line privileges. (Example: People who use wheelchairs as “Shopping Carts”, fight over who gets to ride in the chair, tell their kids to fake a limp, and so on.)



I didn't think it was possible to get FOTL privileges just by renting an WC or ECV -  generally you're not put in a separate line except for some rides (and then that line can be slower).   You're not usually put into the FP line (or treated like you have a DAS).   Other than, as someone mentioned, being allowed to board the bus first and bring along family,  there's no gain by renting a wheelchair?  Genuine question lol!


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## jo-jo

Groot said:


> Yeah, there should be a seperate DAS that’s only for mobility issues, because for some rides you DO NEED to use a separate entrance because of stairs, narrow passageways, etc. in the regular line.



My DH uses a wheelchair at disney about 70% of the time.   Sometimes he walks pushing the wheelchair.  He can walk, just slowly.    There are a few rides I really miss FP because the distance to push him through the lines is sooooooo long.    I don't care about the waiting, just the distance.   And at times when there isn't a line , thinking NEMO ride, I stop and let the 25 people behind me go by.   Me pushing him is slower than just people walking.


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## SueM in MN

Welsh_Dragon said:


> In the U.K. we seem to largely minimise the risk of abuse by allowing organisations to request that anyone seeking assistance presents proof of registered disability. This usually also allows a carer to enter free of charge.


That would not work in the US because there is no system of ‘registered disability’; there is nothing to show a person is disabled. 
Some people have advocated using a Handicapped Parking permit as proof of disability, but a couple problems with that:
- not everyone who would qualify for DAS qualifies for a parking permit
- not everyone who has a parking permit needs DAS; some just need the larger space in the handicapped parking spots or need a closer spot to the entrance to get out of traffic (those are the major reasons for handicapped parking, not to minimize walking)
- many people couldn’t use the parking permit for proof because they are using it to park

The last is there are legal limits in the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) in the US around asking for proof of disability as a condition of receiving accommodation for disability. 


Gordo Gato said:


> I agree.  I had a really bad ankle injury (it left me with torn ligaments so poor stability and absent proprioception) and am fine everywhere except poorly lit damp steps like at splash. I just need to be able to see puddles or step edges and be confident where I’m putting my foot.  Several years ago I asked if I could bypass the stairs at splash, the CMs told me I had to use the main line or get a DAS to circumvent the stairs.  Guest services told me I didn’t need a DAS since it’s a mobility issue and to use an assist device. I don’t need a walker or a cane or a wheelchair: I just need to know where my foot is going and where the puddles are.
> 
> I just don’t ride splash mountain anymore and it is kind of cruddy that is the solution.
> 
> edited: for clarity


I think part of this was a misunderstanding or poorly stated by the CM


OurBigTrip said:


> You were given bad information - you don't need a DAS to avoid the stairs, nor do you need to have an assistive device in order to avoid the stairs.  The CM at Splash should have just let you avoid the stairs, as the DAS has nothing to do with that kind of need.


This is what the process is, and actually what the process was officially under the previous disability program. 
For Splash in specific, the process is supposed to be waiting in the regular line UNTIL getting to the point of entering the building - that’s where the stairs are. 
The majority of queues at WDW are MAINSTREAM Lines, which means they are accessible thru the ‘main’ line of ‘stream’ of entry. Some are Mainstream all the way to boarding and some have a ‘pull off’ that avoids stairs or other inaccessible points. 
Disney Hollywood Studio and AK were built with all Mainstream Lines. EPCOT has one attraction without a Mainstream Line - Spaceship Earth. 
 MK is the oldest park and was has some that were not able to be renovated to make them Mainstream. There are only a couple with stairs; the majority of the inaccessible attractions at MK don’t have stairs; they need to get people with mobility devices to the unloading point to board because the regular boarding spot is on one side of the track and the unload point is on the other side.


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## MS_Warrior

Selket said:


> I didn't think it was possible to get FOTL privileges just by renting an WC or ECV -  generally you're not put in a separate line except for some rides (and then that line can be slower).   You're not usually put into the FP line (or treated like you have a DAS).   Other than, as someone mentioned, being allowed to board the bus first and bring along family,  there's no gain by renting a wheelchair?  Genuine question lol!



If the line doesn’t accommodate and ECV or WC, they’ll give you a return time. Then you go to a different area to wait, and you may end up waiting quite a bit longer than if you had been able to go through the line just because of logistics. 

As someone who’s walked the parks and now does ECV/WC, there really is no advantage. I would trade with an able-bodied person in a heartbeat. We now do fewer rides, and my view of the park is everyone’s backside. I can’t look around as I walk because I have to be on constant alert for those who step in front of me.

It’s exhausting. However, I’m sure I was just as oblivious and stepped in front of people when I walked the parks. Not griping - just explaining that it’s a much more enjoyable trip if you can walk the parks and stay up with your family, etc.


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## Gordo Gato

Thanks for the info.   Maybe I’ll try splash again in October. I assumed I was told I couldn’t avoid the stairs because they looked at me and made an assumption because I was in running shoes, running shorts, and probably had a race shirt on but they wouldn’t have known I only run on a treadmill or on dry, well maintained pavement.  I just didn’t want to risk an even more catastrophic ankle injury by slipping on the stairs.
It was just embarrassing because I thought every assumed I was trying to game the system and I haven’t wanted to try again and create a scene.


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## Lisa Garcia

I have 2 children with Autism who both look normal.  We have a parking permit just for the reasons mentioned above.  We have wandering/elopement issues or if we are in the middle of a meltdown we need to get the the car asap.    The whole reason we return to Disney year after year is for the DAS system.  We would not be able to handle the parks without it.  I do agree with the pre-register idea.  Six Flags and Seaworld have this.  Also, for Disney Cruises they have a specials needs department that really helps.


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## valerie160

MikeOhio said:


> The lack of fastpass right now is definitely driving more people to request a das as well.  Obviously not right but I know at least two families who made up reasons to get a das since fastpass wasn’t available



This is so, so true. And so disgusting.  My SIL (we both married into the same family) moved minutes from disney 2 years ago and a few weeks ago she kept mentioning her DAS pass. Of course I'm aware what a DAS pass is - and she knows this - because my son has down syndrome, so we've been using the DAS Pass for a few years due to his intellectual disability, sensory issues and mild physical disability and it's been very helpful for us. But I was totally confused why SHE would have a DAS Pass because I have known her and her family for over 20 years and I know they have no issues that would require a DAS Pass. When I questioned her, she said it helps her "PTSD" and quickly added that PTSD is a disability that DAS covers and Disney can't ask her for proof. My husband and I were flabbergasted, disgusted and livid, especially with her knowing our situation and blatantly abusing this pass for people that actually need it. I am 100% convinced she is using the DAS pass because FP isn't available anymore. Sadly, she is trying to be an "influencer" and has other "influencer" friends - I wouldn't be surprised if all these people are trying to find loopholes like this and doing the same thing so they can continue to enjoy FP+ type benefits.


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## ZellyB

markpenske said:


> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.




While I understand your frustration with those who abuse the system, I really hope that you'd reconsider what I quoted above.  First, I'm sorry that your son has to use a wheelchair full time and glad that Disney is able to help him and you enjoy the parks more fully.  But your assumptions here are really upsetting to me.

I used an ECV for the first time on our last trip.  I look just fine when seated, and not even too bad when I'm walking (especially early in the day).  Less than 2 years ago my trip to Disney was to run a half-marathon.  I thought I was the picture of health at 55 years old.  Then I was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer that has destroyed a few of my vertebrae and left me with numerous tumors throughout my bones.  I had a rod placed in my right femur to avoid a pathologic fracture due to the bone necrosis caused by my tumors.  I can walk, and do walk, in normal daily living.  It's not possible at Disney as my mobility and stamina won't allow it.  However, sitting full-time in a scooter also becomes uncomfortable and at times I would get up and walk and allow one of my teenage daughters to drive the scooter (perhaps you think I should have pushed it along rather than allowing them to ride it).  At times, they argued over who got to drive it.  Shocking!  Obvious evidence of abuse!

I didn't use a DAS pass as my issues are primarily mobility and the scooter allowed me to use the regular line.  Given that mobility issues alone do not warrant a DAS, I wonder why you think someone would bother to use a scooter to fake a disability since it's well-known that mobility issues alone do not warrant a DAS.

I'm likely overly sensitive to your remark as we overheard someone make a remark much like yours when we were sitting eating lunch one day with my scooter parked near by.  It very nearly ruined the day for me and took all my power to keep my husband from going over and confronting the man.  I wish I could tell you how many lines in which I'd stand;  how many hours I'd be willing to wait; how many miles I'd be thrilled to walk to be rid of this diagnosis.  I spend many days hoping I live to see my daughters and son get married.  I honestly don't type all this out for sympathy or anything else, but hopefully to give you pause about the judgments you make based on appearance.  I would think that you, having to deal with disability issues for your son, would be more understanding and compassionate about those things that you can't possibly know from a casual encounter at a theme park.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Gordo Gato said:


> Thanks for the info.   Maybe I’ll try splash again in October. I assumed I was told I couldn’t avoid the stairs because they looked at me and made an assumption because I was in running shoes, running shorts, and probably had a race shirt on but they wouldn’t have known I only run on a treadmill or on dry, well maintained pavement.  I just didn’t want to risk an even more catastrophic ankle injury by slipping on the stairs.
> It was just embarrassing because I thought every assumed I was trying to game the system and I haven’t wanted to try again and create a scene.



Quite a few years ago, when I could still walk the parks, but not do stairs, they refused to let me go on the train because I didn’t have a pass. Maybe their policy has changed since, but at that time I needed a pass (the precursor to the DAS) to avoid stairs.


----------



## Groot

Lisa Garcia said:


> I have 2 children with Autism who both look normal.  We have a parking permit just for the reasons mentioned above.  We have wandering/elopement issues or if we are in the middle of a meltdown we need to get the the car asap.    The whole reason we return to Disney year after year is for the DAS system.  We would not be able to handle the parks without it.  I do agree with the pre-register idea.  Six Flags and Seaworld have this.  Also, for Disney Cruises they have a specials needs department that really helps.



Agreed. I wouldn’t mind if I had to state what disability I have. I’m used to having disclose it for other major things in my life (example for which I’m hoping to turn into a reality soon: Buying a Powerchair.) If anything, it would really cut down on the fraudsters and let us LEGITIMATE PEOPLE get the benefits we need from the DAS.




valerie160 said:


> This is so, so true. And so disgusting.  My SIL (we both married into the same family) moved minutes from disney 2 years ago and a few weeks ago she kept mentioning her DAS pass. Of course I'm aware what a DAS pass is - and she knows this - because my son has down syndrome, so we've been using the DAS Pass for a few years due to his intellectual disability, sensory issues and mild physical disability and it's been very helpful for us. But I was totally confused why SHE would have a DAS Pass because I have known her and her family for over 20 years and I know they have no issues that would require a DAS Pass. When I questioned her, she said it helps her "PTSD" and quickly added that PTSD is a disability that DAS covers and Disney can't ask her for proof. My husband and I were flabbergasted, disgusted and livid, especially with her knowing our situation and blatantly abusing this pass for people that actually need it. I am 100% convinced she is using the DAS pass because FP isn't available anymore. Sadly, she is trying to be an "influencer" and has other "influencer" friends - I wouldn't be surprised if all these people are trying to find loopholes like this and doing the same thing so they can continue to enjoy FP+ type benefits.



I hate influencers telling people to game the system like that that’s not even meant for them.

I think we’re on the verge of ScooterGate 2.0.


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## MS_Warrior

Groot said:


> Agreed. I wouldn’t mind if I had to state what disability I have. I’m used to having disclose it for other major things in my life (example for which I’m hoping to turn into a reality soon: Buying a Powerchair.) If anything, it would really cut down on the fraudsters and let us LEGITIMATE PEOPLE get the benefits we need from the DAS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate influencers telling people to game the system like that that’s not even meant for them.
> 
> I think we’re on the verge of ScooterGate 2.0.



It wouldn’t bother me in the least to have to state my disability.


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## shawthorne44

My grandparents took turns with the wheelchair.   For the person pushing, it served as a walker.   

There is abuse though. Didn't there used to be non-Disney run VIP tours that used someone with a DAS to get front-of-the-line passes? Like the tour guides kid? 

A work buddy of mine with a DAS kid thinks the current system is more reasonable. He'd gone before when it was more generous.


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## Makmak

shawthorne44 said:


> My grandparents took turns with the wheelchair.   For the person pushing, it served as a walker.
> 
> There is abuse though. Didn't there used to be non-Disney run VIP tours that used someone with a DAS to get front-of-the-line passes? Like the tour guides kid?
> 
> A work buddy of mine with a DAS kid thinks the current system is more reasonable. He'd gone before when it was more generous.


A very long time ago, the entire group that was present with an individual in a wheelchair got front of the line access. In 1993ish I went with a friends family and the mother had a wheelchair (she didn’t normally, and I didn’t ask why she was in one that  day but I suspect, knowing their scammer behavior, that it wasn’t needed ) and we got line cuts all day. There were people with certain disabilities that groups could “hire” to get line cuts. This was a big problem as they marketed themselves as tour guides but really you were hiring the disability status line cut. Since then ques we’re modified to allow mobility devices that solved the abuse issue.


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## notatallmagic

We are new-ish users of the DAS system.  I think the issue now is that without FastPass, other riders are more aware of the system, and more upset by the seeming advantage (they likely don't understand that we wait just as long; just not in one place).  Without DAS, we could no longer do Disney or any other amusement park, but my daughter looks "normal", so I'm sure people question our need.

One of our primary reasons to use DAS initially had to do with the newer Covid rules, and how they impacted our situation.  We MIGHT be able to get by on most rides/lines with the old line rules, low crowd levels, and carefully crafted FastPasses...but maybe not.  I think so many are frustrated because of the July overcrowding and waits.

Our most recent trip, my daughter had a life-threatening event caused by a failure of DAS to work the way it normally does/should - so it is necessary for us.  She has also taken to wearing her medical devices proudly in plain view; I think maybe so that people can now "see" that she has a real reason to use "FastPass" line.  Either way, I'm grateful.


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## SueM in MN

Groot said:


> *Agreed. I wouldn’t mind if I had to state what disability I have.* I’m used to having disclose it for other major things in my life (example for which I’m hoping to turn into a reality soon: Buying a Powerchair.) If anything, it would really cut down on the fraudsters and let us LEGITIMATE PEOPLE get the benefits we need from the DAS.
> 
> I hate influencers telling people to game the system like that that’s not even meant for them.
> I think we’re on the verge of ScooterGate 2.0.





MS_Warrior said:


> *It wouldn’t bother me in the least to have to state my disability.*


Stating the disability would not do anything to cut down on abuse.
First of all, people willing to get DAS knowing they don’t have a disability are very likely to be willing to lie and say they have whatever disability they need to lie about to get it.
Second, people who have the very same condition/disability may have very different needs. Some people with cerebral palsy (which my DD has) can walk with little issue, some use a wheelchair (which they don’t need DAS to use in line), and some have additional needs that are not met by using a wheelchair (which they use DAS to meet).
Third, the ADA says you can be asked about your needs (which is why WDW Guest Relations CMs can ask what concerns the guest has with waiting in line).

Many people assume guests using scooters or wheelchairs get an advantage, but the only ‘advantage’ is having a place to sit in line while waiting. DAS specifically says it’s not needed for guests whose needs are met by using a wheelchair/ECV in line.

There have been abusers and influencers since the beginning. People were selling the old paper cards from the previous program (GAC = Guest Assistance Card) on eBay. I also saw blog posts from a pregnant influencer who wrote about getting a GAC by saying she was pregnant and couldn’t wait in line (at the same time, she wrote about traveling all over the word, including some pretty intense hikes).
Because there are no Fastpasses right now, there are probably more people without disabilities trying to use DAS, but I doubt it’s as huge a number as some people believe.


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## MS_Warrior

SueM in MN said:


> Stating the disability would not do anything to cut down on abuse.
> First of all, people willing to get DAS knowing they don’t have a disability are very likely to be willing to lie and say they have whatever disability they need to lie about to get it.



This is true. Even requiring a letter from a physician won’t really cut down on it because there are always those who will say what you want them to. I think many times people see those who “look fine” and assume they are scamming. 

However, it wouldn’t bother me to state my disability - I’ve had to with the TSA when they were insistent I could get out of my scooter and walk through scanner. Even then, it took me about 45 minutes to convince them I would fall. However, I do agree that it wouldn’t make a difference.


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## Disneyfan754321

I agree that people are abusing the system especially now that FP are gone... but it's a hard one because  my  ds has an invisible disability. He looks fine does not need a wheelchair.  I try and remember that when I'm watching other people I run into getting return times.
Going back to when they changed the system because people were abusing  it.
At six flags my son gets a guest Assistance pass.
I had to bring a doctors  note  it could not say the disability  but had to have the words  is unable to stand in  line que.  I know people still abuse the system  but it seemed  less.


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## summerlyangel

Anyone abusing the system should be shamed, but I really don't think it's a huge problem. I was there last week, and while I did see several people walk through the fast pass lines, it was not an overwhelming number by any means.  When in those "fastpass" lines, we were usually part of a small number of people, and often saw the plaids there with their groups, as well. I was really surprised how many of those there were! In another instance, we got recovery fastpasses when RNR coaster went down at the end of the night and were able to use them at Soarin the next day in Epcot. I think there are quite a few of those given out, too. I do understand the worry, though. I think there will always be people that try to get over on the system and take advantage of what they perceive to be "extra benefits". I don't know how to prevent that without cutting off the system for those that really need it. Personally, I'd be ok with them asking for documentation, but Disney has decided that is not the way they want to go, for whatever reason. I'm also not sure why people argue about this, either when it's already required for things like getting a handicapped placard. If it helps with a need I have, I see it as a reasonable tradeoff.  

For full disclosure, I asked for a DAS for the first time during that trip whereas I'd never needed it before with fastpasses. I tried to wait in hour long lines several times, but either had to leave the line or could not enjoy the ride when it was my turn because of the bathroom issues I have. After doing this for 4 days, I finally got a DAS for myself and was able to enjoy the rest of our trip. Again, this would not have been necessary had fastpasses still been available. We still often stood in lines for 30 minutes or less and saved the DAS for anything over that. For even more disclosure, we have used the DAS for several trips with my children that have autism, but never when it was just DH and I. With the kids, we've never been able to do more than 5 or 6 rides or experiences per day and certainly have never stayed a whole day in the parks! The DAS gives us the ability to experience some of what Disney has to offer, but I can guarantee that it will never be the same as what a typical family without these "hidden" disabilities is able to do on a regular day.


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## Lilsia

OP, are you basing this abuse numbers off of what you have seen? Because DAS users are not the only ones that use the FP lines now. People who have paid for the private tours use it, as well as Club 33 members. I have also heard that they are still giving out FP access to people who have had issues. So you really don't know who is going into the line an if they are using a DAS or not.


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## HashberryOTG

I do know there are people out there who make stuff up to get a DAS pass. However, the program definitely helps significantly more than it hurts. I also can't think of a single way to address the concerns of some people abusing it. We have little to no way of knowing which people ARE abusing it unless we're privy to information. Like hearing the woman I walk past bragging that she got a DAS pass to avoid lines not because her kids had actual issues of any kind, but because standing in line with them was annoying her. In no way from what I heard were those children terrors because of any disability. She was quite happy to brag about the opposite. Got to beat the system! There will never be any way for a company like Disney to know a person like that vs a parent of a child that truly needs assistance.


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## Disneyfan754321

summerlyangel said:


> Anyone abusing the system should be shamed, but I really don't think it's a huge problem. I was there last week, and while I did see several people walk through the fast pass lines, it was not an overwhelming number by any means.  When in those "fastpass" lines, we were usually part of a small number of people, and often saw the plaids there with their groups, as well. I was really surprised how many of those there were! In another instance, we got recovery fastpasses when RNR coaster went down at the end of the night and were able to use them at Soarin the next day in Epcot. I think there are quite a few of those given out, too. I do understand the worry, though. I think there will always be people that try to get over on the system and take advantage of what they perceive to be "extra benefits". I don't know how to prevent that without cutting off the system for those that really need it. Personally, I'd be ok with them asking for documentation, but Disney has decided that is not the way they want to go, for whatever reason. I'm also not sure why people argue about this, either when it's already required for things like getting a handicapped placard. If it helps with a need I have, I see it as a reasonable tradeoff.
> 
> For full disclosure, I asked for a DAS for the first time during that trip whereas I'd never needed it before with fastpasses. I tried to wait in hour long lines several times, but either had to leave the line or could not enjoy the ride when it was my turn because of the bathroom issues I have. After doing this for 4 days, I finally got a DAS for myself and was able to enjoy the rest of our trip. Again, this would not have been necessary had fastpasses still been available. We still often stood in lines for 30 minutes or less and saved the DAS for anything over that. For even more disclosure, we have used the DAS for several trips with my children that have autism, but never when it was just DH and I. With the kids, we've never been able to do more than 5 or 6 rides or experiences per day and certainly have never stayed a whole day in the parks! The DAS gives us the ability to experience some of what Disney has to offer, but I can guarantee that it will never be the same as what a typical family without these "hidden" disabilities is able to do on a regular day.



It's so funny  last time we were there , the line for DAS was super long. So I had to wait while my son waited inside in the air and  when it was our turn  people behind me  got upset that i had to  cut back in  because I had to leave for a second to go get him.

These cheaters have no idea what we go through everyday  and  if we could give up the disability we would  happily stand in every line.


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## TwoMisfits

Welsh_Dragon said:


> In the U.K. we seem to largely minimise the risk of abuse by allowing organisations to request that anyone seeking assistance presents proof of registered disability. This usually also allows a carer to enter free of charge.



I would welcome this idea 100%.  I don't even mind bringing the actual medical records, not just a doc's note.


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## OurBigTrip

TwoMisfits said:


> I would welcome this idea 100%.  I don't even mind bringing the actual medical records, not just a doc's note.


Even if the law allowed this, I still don’t see how it would help, since not everyone with a given disability requires the same accommodations.


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## TwoMisfits

OurBigTrip said:


> Even if the law allowed this, I still don’t see how it would help, since not everyone with a given disability requires the same accommodations.



Fraud would go down a ton if you needed to produce medical records and a doc's note each time (for a certain time length approval - which for most folks would be ticket length for visit) b/c it becomes expensive and burdensome to the fraudsters (b/c they don't have them already from visits/treatment).

It solves all the problems the OP has, which is the abusers.  The borderline cases (this person with this disability might not need it when most do) are not what piss people off - it's the out and out fakers who have no need or document of anything...


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## SueM in MN

TwoMisfits said:


> I would welcome this idea 100%.  I don't even mind bringing the actual medical records, not just a doc's note.


The UK and Europe have paper documentation and/or ID cards to document that they are disabled. There isn’t anything similar in the US.
Even if there was, just having something that shows the person is disabled in some way doesn’t show what the needs are.

Showing medical records or a doctor note would mean someone has to go thru/interpret them. I could literally produce reams of medical records for my daughter because her disabilities were present since birth, but almost none of it would be helpful in telling what her needs are.
CMs would also have to validate that the records or letters were actually REAL medical records from REAL doctors. At one point under the old disability system (GAC), people were sharing suggested text which some people bragged they used to make their own ’doctor letters’ for WDW.


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## TwoMisfits

SueM in MN said:


> The UK and Europe have paper documentation and/or ID cards to document that they are disabled. There isn’t anything similar in the US.
> Even if there was, just having something that shows the person is disabled in some way doesn’t show what the needs are.
> 
> Showing medical records or a doctor note would mean someone has to go thru/interpret them. I could literally produce reams of medical records for my daughter because her disabilities were present since birth, but almost none of it would be helpful in telling what her needs are.
> CMs would also have to validate that the records or letters were actually REAL medical records from REAL doctors. At one point under the old disability system (GAC), people were sharing suggested text which some people bragged they used to make their own ’doctor letters’ for WDW.



And you would not be frauding the system. 

And in this era, verifying a doc or hospital is almost as simple as a text or web search. 

And really, Disney needs to know less about specific "needs" of each person and more about just "is there basic need", b/c they only really provide one accommodation people seek, the DAS pass.  You get your own wheelchairs and conveyance devices, you get your own food and bev, you find your own place to rest, your own bathrooms, etc.


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## Lilsia

TwoMisfits said:


> Fraud would go down a ton if you needed to produce medical records and a doc's note each time (for a certain time length approval - which for most folks would be ticket length for visit) b/c it becomes expensive and burdensome to the fraudsters (b/c they don't have them already from visits/treatment).
> 
> It solves all the problems the OP has, which is the abusers.  The borderline cases (this person with this disability might not need it when most do) are not what piss people off - it's the out and out fakers who have no need or document of anything...



Another issue is people, like me, who have an ongoing medical issue that is not needed to be treated by a doctor but it affects my life. I don't want to, nor should I have to, pay to go to the doctor every year for a statement just to get the DAS. Not only does that put a financial burden on me, but it wastes the doctor's time to just see to write a note for WDW.


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## SueM in MN

TwoMisfits said:


> And you would not be frauding the system.
> 
> And in this era, verifying a doc or hospital is almost as simple as a text or web search.
> 
> And really, Disney needs to know less about specific "needs" of each person and more about just "is there basic need", b/c they only really provide one accommodation people seek, the DAS pass.  You get your own wheelchairs and conveyance devices, you get your own food and bev, you find your own place to rest, your own bathrooms, etc.


You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think. There are still many people using the Fastpass Return lines besides DAS, including Rider Swap, guest recovery passes for a ride shutdown or some other problem, VIP Tour groups (sometimes the VIP tour guide gets their guests into the line, but the the guests go on the attraction and meet the tour guide afterwards.
My husband, youngest DD and I were at WDW in June. A couple of times, we noticed large numbers of people entering the Fastpass line; we found out later they were doing some kind of Fastpass testing.

Seeing someone running or walking fast from a handicapped parking spot doesn’t mean no one in the group is disabled or that they were borrowing someone‘s handicapped parking permit. It could be someone excited who has energy in the morning. Or maybe, the disabled person is a child with autism who is perfectly capable of walking and running.
Seeing one person using a wheelchair/ECV and later another person using it doesn’t mean they are ‘cheating’. People who don’t need one all the time frequently either share it or walk for a while while someone else uses it. When my kids were little, we sometimes carried the younger one and her sister rode her wheelchair. Same thing happened with a friend’s 2 kids; both could walk and even run. The wheelchair was for her oldest son who had an inoperable heart condition and died in his sleep when he was 18.

Looking up a doctor or clinic address on line just shows it exists, not that the doctor actually wrote a letter or even cares for the patient. And, leaving a message for a doctor isn’t as easy as doing a text. When we need to contact one of my daughter’s providers, it’s either leaving a message on the MyChart message system or calling the clinic, being on hold and leaving a message. Either one will get us a call or message back in about 2 working days.

This board began in 1999 and I’ve been a Moderator since the start. In 1999, many websites were saying guests needed to bring a doctor letter to request the program in effect at that time - GAC (Guest Assistance Card).
Some people posted then that their doctor required a visit to write a letter; others‘ doctors charged a fee for writing a letter, which is only fair because it did take the doctor’s time. The patient had to pay; insurance would not because neither the visit or letter were medically necessary.
On the other hand, some people got legitimate letters from their doctor without medical need. A couple situations I remember people reporting about:
- a healthy pregnant woman got a letter saying she was disabled (her doctor told her pregnant women deserve to not wait)
- a family with 3 non disabled children got a letter saying one was disabled (her doctor said anyone taking 3 small children deserved to not wait)

And, then there were blogs where people wrote how to get GAC. Some gave instructions and text for how to write a fake doctor letter, including how to make official looking letterhead

i personally think don’t think it’s fair or right to make peopke with real disabilities jump thru a bunch of hoops to address a perceived appearance of some possible cheats.


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## ttintagel

_“Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system.”_

My issue is with people who think they can tell the difference between those two groups of people at a casual glance. Most MDs can’t even do that.

Many people don’t need a wheelchair in their everyday lives, but a day in a Disney park ain’t a day in everyday life, no matter how you slice it. And there are people who only need a wheelchair part of the time (sitting all day actually aggravates some conditions). Letting other people in their group use the wheelchair while they don’t need it hurts nobody, unless they’re operating it in an unsafe manner. I’ve toured the parks both with a wheelchair/ECV and without, and there were no advantages to the former. No FOTL access. No shorter waits. Just a lot of aggro.

Requiring a doctor’s note wouldn’t change a thing. Doctors love to write notes,  even those who have no idea how things operate at a Disney park. 

Does Disney get accommodation perfect? Heck no. You’ll see plenty of comments from me wishing that the accommodations I need for visual impairment were required instead of being left up to the whim of individual CMs at attractions. But they do a better job than most.


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## mamabunny

SueM in MN said:


> You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think...



This.

My hubs and I were just talking about this very concept tonight.  He is a "car guy" (srsly, I think it's encoded in his DNA) and he casually said "Oh we can't buy *that* car, because all of the engines are failing..."  I asked him what he had read/seen to cause him to believe that.  He said "Oh, it's *all over* the internet - that whole series of engines is bad, and they fail without warning."

To make a looooooooooooong story shorter, after much questioning, and a bit of light googling of my own, I realized that what he perceived as "all of the engines" and "everyone says" was just the normal chatter of a couple of groups of car guys.  The same basic info was being passed around all 3 of the sites he visits daily, and as I suspected, the same handful of disgruntled owners were spreading their tale of woe on every enthusiast site they could find.

So, I reminded him that often what we see on the internet is the bad stuff - it's the stuff that gets shared the most, passed around the faster and viewed the most times.  As a species, humans are weird; we all seem to have a bit of a  tendency to naturally gravitate towards those kinds of posts.  It validates your belief that *you* bought the "right" car; after all, you aren't here posting about your horrible experience...  Additionally, we rarely go online to praise a company for doing something well; if you buy a car, and it works every day, you probably don't go and post a review - or seek out a company representative - to tell everyone else how happy you are with your car.  You get in, and drive away.

I used to be a retail manager, once upon a time. When I was in training before I was assigned to my store, my DM (district manager) told me that a happy customer *might* tell 1 or 2 friends, but an *unhappy* customer tells - on average - 10 people or MORE about their experience.   When you think about that in the context of our discussion here, it's quite possible that a very minuscule fraction of Guests are fraudulently obtaining a DAS (and even bragging about it) but it's also quite possible that we are just hearing the same stories repeated over and over by others as they get passed around through the community.


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## Disneyfan754321

TwoMisfits said:


> Fraud would go down a ton if you needed to produce medical records and a doc's note each time (for a certain time length approval - which for most folks would be ticket length for visit) b/c it becomes expensive and burdensome to the fraudsters (b/c they don't have them already from visits/treatment).
> 
> It solves all the problems the OP has, which is the abusers.  The borderline cases (this person with this disability might not need it when most do) are not what piss people off - it's the out and out fakers who have no need or document of anything...


At six flags,  if your note says the condition is permanent it says in the number  they supply you   if it's temporary  it will be good  for the season or less if specified.
The first note I got they would not take because it had a diagnosis  so I had to call for another one that was vague and just said unable to wait in que lines  due to a  permanent disability.  So now it's on there for life.  Now my son shows his ID   and they give it to him, it was my ID untill he was older.


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## Karin1984

That people think there is fraud is that either not knowing how the procedures work, but also a few years ago, there were some articles about people who hired people in wheelchairs to get DAS advantages (Bad choice of words, but I don't have anything better). That is an image that really sticks, because it's so immoral. It's hard to get rid of that image. And indeed what happens when something goes wrong for a DAS-person and the press picks it up, it looks twice as bad. You never want bad press over customer experiences, but if it's with a DAS-person, your image takes a double hit. 

I'll admit mixed feelings about DAS. My main issue is there is no way of having a perfect system. My homepark is Paris, where they do ask for documentation, so my guess is that fraud is less an issue here. 
I am not 100% sure how it works in Paris, but I do think that after DAS-people have their card there is little wait for them. Unless there is a queue in the DAS-line. 

I know that people who have to use DAS have a more difficult life in general than me who is able-bodied & able-minded. They need a different way of touring than I do. I see that, no problem with it. It is needed and if I ever would need it, I would want a system as well.
But when a DAS-using friend (with good reasons) brags to me that she can ride Big Thunder Mountain 7 times in a row with little to no wait, or that I have wait at Meet & Greets 30-45 minutes longer because they keep letting DAS-people in front of me, then my understanding goes down.


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## OurBigTrip

Karin1984 said:


> That people think there is fraud is that either not knowing how the procedures work, but also a few years ago, there were some articles about people who hired people in wheelchairs to get DAS advantages (Bad choice of words, but I don't have anything better). That is an image that really sticks, because it's so immoral. It's hard to get rid of that image. And indeed what happens when something goes wrong for a DAS-person and the press picks it up, it looks twice as bad. You never want bad press over customer experiences, but if it's with a DAS-person, your image takes a double hit.
> 
> I'll admit mixed feelings about DAS. My main issue is there is no way of having a perfect system. My homepark is Paris, where they do ask for documentation, so my guess is that fraud is less an issue here.
> I am not 100% sure how it works in Paris, but I do think that after DAS-people have their card there is little wait for them. Unless there is a queue in the DAS-line.
> 
> I know that people who have to use DAS have a more difficult life in general than me who is able-bodied & able-minded. They need a different way of touring than I do. I see that, no problem with it. It is needed and if I ever would need it, I would want a system as well.
> But when a DAS-using friend (with good reasons) brags to me that she can ride Big Thunder Mountain 7 times in a row with little to no wait, or that I have wait at Meet & Greets 30-45 minutes longer because they keep letting DAS-people in front of me, then my understanding goes down.



The "tour guide" abuse was back under the old GAC system, which allowed immediate entry into the FP line for most guests who utilized it.  So while it wasn't immediate access to the ride, it was immediate access to the FP line, which for popular rides made it entirely possible for GAC holders to have very short wait times compared to non-GAC holders.

The DAS, in the US at least, doesn't provide that immediate access...the DAS holder must get a return time that is equal to the standby wait time minus 10 minutes.   After waiting, they come back and enter the FP line.  While it still provides an advantage, it doesn't provide nearly the incentive for the non-disabled to abuse it as they did the GAC.  It also prevents valid users from overusing it to the extent that ride operations for all guests are negatively impacted.

**edited to correct "was" to "wasn't"


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## TwoMisfits

SueM in MN said:


> You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think. There are still many people using the Fastpass Return lines besides DAS, including Rider Swap, guest recovery passes for a ride shutdown or some other problem, VIP Tour groups (sometimes the VIP tour guide gets their guests into the line, but the the guests go on the attraction and meet the tour guide afterwards.
> My husband, youngest DD and I were at WDW in June. A couple of times, we noticed large numbers of people entering the Fastpass line; we found out later they were doing some kind of Fastpass testing.
> 
> Seeing someone running or walking fast from a handicapped parking spot doesn’t mean no one in the group is disabled or that they were borrowing someone‘s handicapped parking permit. It could be someone excited who has energy in the morning. Or maybe, the disabled person is a child with autism who is perfectly capable of walking and running.
> Seeing one person using a wheelchair/ECV and later another person using it doesn’t mean they are ‘cheating’. People who don’t need one all the time frequently either share it or walk for a while while someone else uses it. When my kids were little, we sometimes carried the younger one and her sister rode her wheelchair. Same thing happened with a friend’s 2 kids; both could walk and even run. The wheelchair was for her oldest son who had an inoperable heart condition and died in his sleep when he was 18.
> 
> Looking up a doctor or clinic address on line just shows it exists, not that the doctor actually wrote a letter or even cares for the patient. And, leaving a message for a doctor isn’t as easy as doing a text. When we need to contact one of my daughter’s providers, it’s either leaving a message on the MyChart message system or calling the clinic, being on hold and leaving a message. Either one will get us a call or message back in about 2 working days.
> 
> This board began in 1999 and I’ve been a Moderator since the start. In 1999, many websites were saying guests needed to bring a doctor letter to request the program in effect at that time - GAC (Guest Assistance Card).
> Some people posted then that their doctor required a visit to write a letter; others‘ doctors charged a fee for writing a letter, which is only fair because it did take the doctor’s time. The patient had to pay; insurance would not because neither the visit or letter were medically necessary.
> On the other hand, some people got legitimate letters from their doctor without medical need. A couple situations I remember people reporting about:
> - a healthy pregnant woman got a letter saying she was disabled (her doctor told her pregnant women deserve to not wait)
> - a family with 3 non disabled children got a letter saying one was disabled (her doctor said anyone taking 3 small children deserved to not wait)
> 
> And, then there were blogs where people wrote how to get GAC. Some gave instructions and text for how to write a fake doctor letter, including how to make official looking letterhead
> 
> i personally think don’t think it’s fair or right to make peopke with real disabilities jump thru a bunch of hoops to address a perceived appearance of some possible cheats.



But that's why I said doc note AND medical records.  Real docs won't forge the records, and your diagnosis (if it's just healthy pregnancy in the records) would be obvious.  And if it was a perfect world, I'd have folks have to presubmit them to a certain Disney group IN ADVANCE who would then have approval (or disapproval) already done for the park, since 19 year old college students have no idea about this stuff, so approval/disapproval of DAS normally falls on "who is verbally the most adroit or who "performs" the best in the CS line."

I had a DAS-equivalent at Universal.  It was preapproved for me for a set period of days (my vacay days), since my relative (who works in the company, but not at Universal proper) asked me in advance for all my official medical records and needs.  And I sent them.  It opened my eyes to how this could go vs how it does.  Again. it's not how Universal normally does it, either...but it would be nice if it was.

As far as docs charging folks for paperwork, well, that's part of our life.  Disney offers such a large benefit that the normal park goer does not currently receive, it should not be too much burden for those looking to use it.  Nothing says you have to try to get a DAS when you go to the parks.

In our society, there's starting to be a trend to say "show me, don't tell me" (vax ID, voter ID, etc), since it's become so easy and cheap...so we should be ready for companies and/or laws to start being adapted to make that a reality.


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## Orion Nebula

I also get frustrated by the fact that not all disabilities are very noticeable. Each time I had to get a DAS pass I always wish I could provide proof. I always felt like I was being looked at suspiciously. It bothers me so much I attempted not to get one for my son (ASD) during my last trip. And then as expected he became a nightmare in line for everyone. He stims and runs into people constantly, prone to complete breakdowns due to noise and even small things like bumping his elbow. So our day at AK was ruined. The next day I got one and our trip ended up going much more smoothly and everyone had fun. 

The people that abuse this system obviously effect the ones who need it, they are horrible entitled human beings.


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## lanejudy

TwoMisfits said:


> it should not be too much burden for those looking to use it. Nothing says you have to try to get a DAS when you go to the parks.


You are looking at DAS as an optional add-on type of feature — like FP — it makes a more enjoyable experience but is not necessary.  However DAS is absolutely 100% necessary for some folks to be able to access the attractions; without it they cannot manage the parks.  See the post above as an example.

I don’t see WDW hiring a medical staff just to review medical records.  Nope.  And they determine whether my medical records support what my doctor wrote?  Is it like the insurance company who may request additional documentation before approving the request?  I'm curious what sort of documentation you think would be appropriate.  Take for example a person who has a congenital condition (meaning they were born with it); they received special ed services while school-age and depending on how the condition manifests, possibly some medical follow-ups.  Now as an adult who is adequately managing their condition on a day-to-day basis (with help from a caregiver), they don't have a lot of current medical records and the school records are long outdated.  For example, an annual follow-up with a nephrologist is _related _to the diagnosis but does not directly show the right need, and an annual physical with a PCP may show the diagnosis was discussed but not "treated" and again doesn't indicate how that diagnosis relates to needing assistance in the parks.  Just a quick peek back through the first few pages of disABILITIES shows some rare diagnoses that aren't likely to ever appear on an "accepted" list -- so again it falls to explaining the _needs_ of the individual as those needs pertain to the general park environment or specifically the queue environment.  There is no medical record that I can produce which will show that.  Any documentation or letter from a professional will require 1) an unnecessary visit (wasting my time and the doctor's time) and 2) a fee for the visit because insurance won't cover it.  And the end result is medical documentation that doesn't "prove" the specific needs.

No system is perfect.  The ADA allows for equal access based on need.  The US does not have a national registry of disabilities like some countries have, and honestly I don't think that is necessary.  As long as the access is considered "equal" there should be little incentive for fraud, and those who do fake will find a way to do that regardless of the rules.  Making the system harder for those who need it, just to weed out the few who don't, simply creates an obstacle.  It sounds like some on this thread would actually advocate for "greater than equal" access and a system that requires proof.  I am glad WDW is open and accessible to all - my family doesn't need extra.


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## Lilsia

Karin1984 said:


> That people think there is fraud is that either not knowing how the procedures work, but also a few years ago, there were some articles about people who hired people in wheelchairs to get DAS advantages (Bad choice of words, but I don't have anything better). That is an image that really sticks, because it's so immoral. It's hard to get rid of that image. And indeed what happens when something goes wrong for a DAS-person and the press picks it up, it looks twice as bad. You never want bad press over customer experiences, but if it's with a DAS-person, your image takes a double hit.
> 
> I'll admit mixed feelings about DAS. My main issue is there is no way of having a perfect system. My homepark is Paris, where they do ask for documentation, so my guess is that fraud is less an issue here.
> I am not 100% sure how it works in Paris, but I do think that after DAS-people have their card there is little wait for them. Unless there is a queue in the DAS-line.
> 
> I know that people who have to use DAS have a more difficult life in general than me who is able-bodied & able-minded. They need a different way of touring than I do. I see that, no problem with it. It is needed and if I ever would need it, I would want a system as well.
> But when a DAS-using friend (with good reasons) brags to me that she can ride Big Thunder Mountain 7 times in a row with little to no wait, or that I have wait at Meet & Greets 30-45 minutes longer because they keep letting DAS-people in front of me, then my understanding goes down.



My issue with DLP is that according to their rules, I don't have any kind of disability in the usual sense. But with my legitimate medical issue, I can not wait in line for more then 20-30 minutes at most before I would have to leave and use the facilities. So I would not qualify for a DAS there making it pretty much worthless for me to go. There are so many more medical issues then the standard "disabled" ones that they seem to not want to acknowledge. Most of us get along just fine in our day to day lives, but go to someplace like a Disney park, and that little bit of help, by waiting outside the line, makes all the difference in the world. Maybe DLP needs to change their policy to make it like WDW, where you do actually wait, just outside the line.


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## Lilsia

TwoMisfits said:


> But that's why I said doc note AND medical records.  Real docs won't forge the records, and your diagnosis (if it's just healthy pregnancy in the records) would be obvious.  And if it was a perfect world, I'd have folks have to presubmit them to a certain Disney group IN ADVANCE who would then have approval (or disapproval) already done for the park, since 19 year old college students have no idea about this stuff, so approval/disapproval of DAS normally falls on "who is verbally the most adroit or who "performs" the best in the CS line."
> 
> I had a DAS-equivalent at Universal.  It was preapproved for me for a set period of days (my vacay days), since my relative (who works in the company, but not at Universal proper) asked me in advance for all my official medical records and needs.  And I sent them.  It opened my eyes to how this could go vs how it does.  Again. it's not how Universal normally does it, either...but it would be nice if it was.
> 
> As far as docs charging folks for paperwork, well, that's part of our life.  Disney offers such a large benefit that the normal park goer does not currently receive, it should not be too much burden for those looking to use it.  Nothing says you have to try to get a DAS when you go to the parks.
> 
> In our society, there's starting to be a trend to say "show me, don't tell me" (vax ID, voter ID, etc), since it's become so easy and cheap...so we should be ready for companies and/or laws to start being adapted to make that a reality.



What? Nobody should have to show anyone, let alone a theme park employee, their personal medical records. It's no one's business what medical issues you have gone through. They are private for a reason. People are not applying for government assistance here where they should have to prove they need it. This is a theme park, where your accommodation with a DAS is to wait somewhere else instead of in line. Not really that big of a deal that would warrant showing anyone your medical history.


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## Lilsia

Orion Nebula said:


> The people that abuse this system obviously effect the ones who need it, they are horrible entitled human beings.



But how does it affect you if other people have the DAS? It's not like there is a limit that they hand out and you might not get one. Those people would still be in some kind of line so it's not like the park would be less busy. It really does not affect anyone else if others have the DAS.


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## TwoMisfits

Lilsia said:


> But how does it affect you if other people have the DAS? It's not like there is a limit that they hand out and you might not get one. Those people would still be in some kind of line so it's not like the park would be less busy. I*t really does not affect anyone else if others have the DAS.*



That's not true.  While I didn't go on other rides while I waited when I used one this year, you see routinely many people say they get a DAS return time for one ride and then head to another, so they are adding to lines for the normal park guest.  That's why it's more than a regular guest receives, and is a benefit.  If they prevented that activity, then it would be "the same."  But they don't, so the DAS rider is getting more possible access to rides.  

Now, those with DAS needs probably are not in the park as long, nor riding as much in general, so that "extra" access isn't a problem even if it's taken.  But a fraudster DAS holder - yeah, they are screwing regular attendees.


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## Orion Nebula

Lilsia said:


> But how does it affect you if other people have the DAS? It's not like there is a limit that they hand out and you might not get one. Those people would still be in some kind of line so it's not like the park would be less busy. It really does not affect anyone else if others have the DAS.



Because I think they are crappy people for abusing the system. I have two children with a disability, and anytime I come across people that shrug and think "heh, me too, free perks" it really bothers me. I have always felt like it almost discredits those who actually struggle in life but maybe I am the only one.


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## ttintagel

OurBigTrip said:


> The "tour guide" abuse was back under the old GAC system, which allowed immediate entry into the FP line for most guests who utilized it.  So while it wasn't immediate access to the ride, it was immediate access to the FP line, which for popular rides made it entirely possible for GAC holders to have very short wait times compared to non-GAC holders.
> 
> The DAS, in the US at least, doesn't provide that immediate access...the DAS holder must get a return time that is equal to the standby wait time minus 10 minutes.   After waiting, they come back and enter the FP line.  While it still provides an advantage, it doesn't provide nearly the incentive for the non-disabled to abuse it as they did the GAC.  It also prevents valid users from overusing it to the extent that ride operations for all guests are negatively impacted.
> 
> **edited to correct "was" to "wasn't"



Also, it was mostly an issue at Disneyland, where fewer attractions have accessible queues.


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## OurBigTrip

ttintagel said:


> Also, it was mostly an issue at Disneyland, where fewer attractions have accessible queues.



The use of "tour guides" abusing the system may have mostly been in Disneyland, but the instant access to FP at both Disneyland and Disney World contributed to abuse by the non-disabled and overuse by the disabled at both locations.


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## Lilsia

Orion Nebula said:


> Because I think they are crappy people for abusing the system. I have two children with a disability, and anytime I come across people that shrug and think "heh, me too, free perks" it really bothers me. I have always felt like it almost discredits those who actually struggle in life but maybe I am the only one.



I never said that those people are not crappy individuals, just that they don't affect others being able to have access to DAS. It's not like there is a limit on how many they hand out, so if someone lies to get one, it's not like they are taking the place for someone else who really needs it.


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## OurBigTrip

Lilsia said:


> I never said that those people are not crappy individuals, just that they don't affect others being able to have access to DAS. It's not like there is a limit on how many they hand out, so if someone lies to get one, it's not like they are taking the place for someone else who really needs it.



Very true, however, if (and it's a big "if") Disney feels that abuse is on the rise again, they'll make it either harder to get or less useful or both.


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## Lilsia

OurBigTrip said:


> Very true, however, if (and it's a big "if") Disney feels that abuse is on the rise again, they'll make it either harder to get or less useful or both.



They might, but they will never be able to ask anyone for medical information. So there really is no point in debating if they should or not. They are not going to risk breaking the law over something like this. And I don't think that the abuse is as bad as what some people think. Like everyone hear has already said, you don't know what someone's issues are. I look perfectly normal and healthy because my issues are not visible, they are internal. But without DAS, I would not be able to do much of anything in the parks. But I imagine if you saw me go through the FP line, you would assume that I was faking it. That is the whole point, you don't know.


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## OurBigTrip

Lilsia said:


> They might, but they will never be able to ask anyone for medical information. So there really is no point in debating if they should or not. They are not going to risk breaking the law over something like this. And I don't think that the abuse is as bad as what some people think. Like everyone hear has already said, you don't know what someone's issues are. I look perfectly normal and healthy because my issues are not visible, they are internal. But without DAS, I would not be able to do much of anything in the parks. But I imagine if you saw me go through the FP line, you would assume that I was faking it. That is the whole point, you don't know.


No, but they can ask for a doctors note if they choose to, so long as it doesn't tell what the disability is.


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## lanejudy

OurBigTrip said:


> No, but they can ask for a doctors note if they choose to, so long as it doesn't tell what the disability is.


I know Six Flags does it and probably others, but what they offer grants you access with potential for little or no wait.  So even though they say it's not intended to skip the line, it essentially works like their GOFAST pass which has a monetary value.  

Asking for a doctor's note is asking for proof.  Just because they say "don't state the disability" doesn't mean it isn't proof.  That is simply covering their butts in that they may not be the most careful in protecting the privacy of such documents.  It really has nothing to do with making the note allowable under the ADA.


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## MediumSizedMermaid

*You cannot tell someone who has a disability from someone who doesn't by looking at them. You cannot tell if a person is 'just lazy' by looking at them.*

There's been a LOT of talk in this thread about 'just' wanting to shame the 'abusers'. Guess what? Go anywhere where disabled people are talking and you will hear or read tons of stories about people who were confronted by someone who that they were 'faking' when they had a legitimate disability. Thinking you can tell 'good' disabled people from fakers or lazy people who do not deserve accommodation at a glance is ableist and gross. Just because someone's not puttering around on a crutch whimpering like freaking Tiny Tim does not mean they aren't disabled. Disabled people aren't obligated to conform to whatever Victorian novel standard you have in your head so you can feel like things are 'fair.'

If you know someone personally who admits to abusing the system, fine, call them out. But they are a minority. Anecdotes aren't data. If there was a significant amount of fraud happening Disney would adjust the system, just as they did when the stories came out about those tour guides.

The question is: Do you want the (extremely small amount) of fraudsters to be denied more than you want people who need it to have access? That's the dichotomy. The more barriers you put in the harder it will be for people with legitimate disabilities to use too. I'd rather let 10 fakers sneak in than have 1 needing person go without. But that's just me.

The current system is IMO a happy medium between accommodating people who need it and eliminating the kind of fraud that would most impact other guests.

1. Your party goes to Guest Services. You explain who needs the accommodation and maybe generally why. They take that person's picture and link that and the DAS to their MDE profile. They then scan the rest of your party to link you all. Everyone has to be there. (No taking Steve's Magicband and having him join your group later.) They will then activate DAS for a period of time. (This varies. My Dad uses DAS because of his back and one time it was length of stay only, another it was good for six months.)

*Any time your party changes you have to return to Guest Services.* (Meaning anyone trying to pull the tour guide scam is likely going to get flagged given their constantly changing parties of people they have no history/relationship with and who have no history/relationship with each other. And the above point RE Steve means they can't sell themselves as a 'VIP' guide and unwittingly add people to their party who think it's a real VIP thing and have no clue they're using DAS at all. Or your shady in-law can't add you to their party without your knowledge.)

Let's use my Dad as an example: He could be in a party with my Mom and my brother one trip. Another trip it's me, him, and my best friend. My family all has the same last name and address and my friend has a long history of being in my MDE friends and family list and FP parties etc. with me. One day during the second trip my aunt and uncle, who live in Orlando, decide to join us. Again, same last name, longstanding park history together and MDE links. All three times require a *separate* trip to Guest Services to adjust your party.

2. Anyone in the group can go to the attraction and get a return time. The time is usually approximately the standby wait and you can only have one at a time. (No having a return time for FOP in three hours and then trying to get one for Expedition Everest for one hour while you're still waiting for FOP. You can only wait in one 'line' at a time.)

3. When it's time to ride the DAS person has to be there and they have to be riding. (No Grandpa getting a return time for a coaster only the Grandkids are going on.) Their band/ticket gets scanned in the FP+ queue first. The cast member checks the photo. (No getting DAS for yourself and giving your cousin your Magicband for the day.) Everyone else taps in and you go through the FP+ queue.

All together: Photo and MDE records keep out tour guides and habitual scammers and prevent people from unwittingly abusing the system because of someone else. DAS has to be periodically renewed and party updated so you can't 'set it and forget it'. Photo and DAS person must ride requirement mean a legitimate DAS user can't 'cheat the system' and get a return time for any attraction they aren't themselves riding.

The one at a time limit means you can't be 'on line' for say 7DMT, Space Mountain, and Peter Pan at the same time. If 7DMT has a return time of two hours later, and then after that you get a one hour for Space Mountain, and after that a 1.5 hour for Pan you're 'waiting' 4.5 hours total for all of them. The benefit to 'doubling up' with shorter stand-by lines would seriously depend on how savvy and planning-oriented the DAS party was, which I feel like would skew heavily toward the legitimate users. And a savvy non-DAS planner would know all the tricks too. So if they rope-dropped 7DMT, and did Peter Pan just before closing, and waited until Space was a 45 minute wait, then they'd reduce the DAS person's time-advantage. It's very different from being an immediate front of the line pass.

If someone can think of a better system to keep out 'fakers' while not hurting the people who actually need it, I'd love to hear it. (And YES requiring a doctor's note would absolutely mean legitimate people would be unable to use DAS and NO it is not any guarantee that fakers would not still get in.)


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## SteveMouse

OurBigTrip said:


> Even if the law allowed this, I still don’t see how it would help, since not everyone with a given disability requires the same accommodations.


Not to mention telling you the name of the condition I have doesn’t describe my needs. Since only about 300 people in the US have the condition, it’s not one that most/many people are familiar with. It has a word similar to “progressive” in it, but that really only allows you to infer that it’s not static.

In my particular case, it’s pretty obvious that something is wrong, but most people don’t have a clue. In 50+ years I have met two people who recognized the condition. One was an author for Atlantic Magazine who was working on a book and article about the condition (we’d run into each other at a conference). The other was a family member of someone else with the condition. I knew the other person with the condition (who wasn’t with them) but did not know the individual I met.


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## OurBigTrip

lanejudy said:


> I know Six Flags does it and probably others, but what they offer grants you access with potential for little or no wait.  So even though they say it's not intended to skip the line, it essentially works like their GOFAST pass which has a monetary value.
> 
> Asking for a doctor's note is asking for proof.  Just because they say "don't state the disability" doesn't mean it isn't proof.  That is simply covering their butts in that they may not be the most careful in protecting the privacy of such documents.  It really has nothing to do with making the note allowable under the ADA.


True, they charge for all of their Flash Passes, even the lowest tier one that works like a DAS, so that is probably why they can do it.  Plus the info goes to a third party rather than Six Flags themselves.


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## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> No, but they can ask for a doctors note if they choose to, so long as it doesn't tell what the disability is.



I just read an article about Six Flags. A woman’s doctor didn’t get specific enough about how her disability limits her, and they denied her access. I can see this being a problem. As a retired nurse, most doctors would probably write a rather generic letter - for a charge. 

I don’t have a problem explaining my disability (though I don’t use a DAS - just a wheelchair), however the doctor’s note is another issue. 

For one thing, doctor’s notes can be faked, and even if not faked, I’m sure you could find an internet doc that would write a letter without knowing the patient - for a price.  If someone truly wants to defraud the system, they will. 

Disney’s system works better than most, because of the return times, there really is no big advantage. I cannot imagine why someone would fake it when it really doesn’t give much of an advantage.


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## Evita_W

SueM in MN said:


> Stating the disability would not do anything to cut down on abuse.
> First of all, people willing to get DAS knowing they don’t have a disability are very likely to be willing to lie and say they have whatever disability they need to lie about to get it.
> Second, people who have the very same condition/disability may have very different needs. Some people with cerebral palsy (which my DD has) can walk with little issue, some use a wheelchair (which they don’t need DAS to use in line), and some have additional needs that are not met by using a wheelchair (which they use DAS to meet).
> Third, the ADA says you can be asked about your needs (which is why WDW Guest Relations CMs can ask what concerns the guest has with waiting in line).
> 
> Many people assume guests using scooters or wheelchairs get an advantage, but the only ‘advantage’ is having a place to sit in line while waiting. DAS specifically says it’s not needed for guests whose needs are met by using a wheelchair/ECV in line.
> 
> There have been abusers and influencers since the beginning. People were selling the old paper cards from the previous program (GAC = Guest Assistance Card) on eBay. I also saw blog posts from a pregnant influencer who wrote about getting a GAC by saying she was pregnant and couldn’t wait in line (at the same time, she wrote about traveling all over the word, including some pretty intense hikes).
> Because there are no Fastpasses right now, there are probably more people without disabilities trying to use DAS, but I doubt it’s as huge a number as some people believe.


Yes, there have been abusers for a long time, even back when Disneyland did require a doctor's note to get what was then termed a special assistance pass, there were abusers. In fact, percentage wise it was likely higher than when they stopped requiring them. Basically, there were businesses all around the park offering things like "Skip the lines for $10, ask me how." And basically for $10 they would give you a fake doctor's note. This led to an increase in awareness of the program and more people getting the passes.


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## Evita_W

OurBigTrip said:


> True, they charge for all of their Flash Passes, even the lowest tier one that works like a DAS, so that is probably why they can do it.  Plus the info goes to a third party rather than Six Flags themselves.


Actually, they still have to provide a system of equal accomodations without a doctor's note under ADA, so there is something there, but you have to ask for it and point it out that ADA requires them to allow it. But the accomodations must allow for safe access equal to what any other guest can get without paying extra, so in other words if guest A has to wait 60 minutes and do stairs, guest B who can't do stairs or stand in the line die to say sin issues, would still need to wait 60 minutes somewhere and then be given an alternative entrance to use.


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## OurBigTrip

MS_Warrior said:


> I just read an article about Six Flags. A woman’s doctor didn’t get specific enough about how her disability limits her, and they denied her access. I can see this being a problem. As a retired nurse, most doctors would probably write a rather generic letter - for a charge.
> 
> I don’t have a problem explaining my disability (though I don’t use a DAS - just a wheelchair), however the doctor’s note is another issue.
> 
> For one thing, doctor’s notes can be faked, and even if not faked, I’m sure you could find an internet doc that would write a letter without knowing the patient - for a price.  If someone truly wants to defraud the system, they will.
> 
> Disney’s system works better than most, because of the return times, there really is no big advantage. I cannot imagine why someone would fake it when it really doesn’t give much of an advantage.


I agree that DAS is a better system, no question. But I don't think that Six Flags looks at the doctor's note...it's with a third party who makes the determination, but no idea what criteria (if any) they use to validate the notes, info, etc.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Evita_W said:


> Actually, they still have to provide a system of equal accomodations without a doctor's note under ADA, so there is something there, but you have to ask for it and point it out that ADA requires them to allow it. But the accomodations must allow for safe access equal to what any other guest can get without paying extra, so in other words if guest A has to wait 60 minutes and do stairs, guest B who can't do stairs or stand in the line die to say sin issues, would still need to wait 60 minutes somewhere and then be given an alternative entrance to use.


According to the Six Flags website, they are fully compliant with ADA and HIPAA.  As lanejudy noted above, it may be because the accommodations provided have a price attached for non-disabled guests.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Or, they could be full of poop as well, and they aren't really compliant - always a possibility!


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> Or, they could be full of poop as well, and they aren't really compliant - always a possibility!



An article I just read by a disabled attorney said he fully expects to see law suits in the near future because of the way they are doing the passes. No clue if they are following ADA or not.


----------



## Gordo Gato

MediumSizedMermaid said:


> There's been a LOT of talk in this thread about 'just' wanting to shame the 'abusers'


Sorry. I just asked if I could ask to bypass the stairs at splash mountain without a DAS.  I didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else. Maybe I shouldn’t have asked for clarification from what a CM told me.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Gordo Gato said:


> Sorry. I just asked if I could ask to bypass the stairs at splash mountain without a DAS.  I didn’t mean to offend you.



In the past, I wasn’t allowed to bypass stair on the railroad. Of course, that was many years ago. I don’t know how they do it nowadays.


----------



## MediumSizedMermaid

Gordo Gato said:


> Sorry. I just asked if I could ask to bypass the stairs at splash mountain without a DAS.  I didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else. Maybe I shouldn’t have asked for clarification from what a CM told me.



I was responding to a repeated trend of people saying they could tell that many people were abusing DAS by looking at them. Not to anyone in particular. And that's a totally fair question to ask. No worries!


----------



## Lilsia

MS_Warrior said:


> An article I just read by a disabled attorney said he fully expects to see law suits in the near future because of the way they are doing the passes. No clue if they are following ADA or not.



What have FP got to do with DAS? I know, absolutely nothing. It sounds like a bunch of wasteful, frivolous lawsuits against some deep pockets. And can you link that article?


----------



## Groot

Orion Nebula said:


> I also get frustrated by the fact that not all disabilities are very noticeable. Each time I had to get a DAS pass I always wish I could provide proof. I always felt like I was being looked at suspiciously. It bothers me so much I attempted not to get one for my son (ASD) during my last trip. And then as expected he became a nightmare in line for everyone. He stims and runs into people constantly, prone to complete breakdowns due to noise and even small things like bumping his elbow. So our day at AK was ruined. The next day I got one and our trip ended up going much more smoothly and everyone had fun.
> 
> The people that abuse this system obviously effect the ones who need it, they are horrible entitled human beings.



Same goes for someone like me who doesn’t fit into the “Classic Look” of their disability too.


----------



## SirDuff

Lilsia said:


> What have FP got to do with DAS? I know, absolutely nothing. It sounds like a bunch of wasteful, frivolous lawsuits against some deep pockets. And can you link that article?



I think that they were talking about Six Flags asking for documentation for their pass.


----------



## JenGo2020

markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.
> 
> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!
> 
> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.





markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.
> 
> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!
> 
> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.




A different point of view.  My husband is a 100% disabled veteran.  To the "normal" eye you would never, ever know he has any issues.  He has a disabled veterans handicap license plates - he gets the stink eye at times by people thinking he is cheating the system. Until you have been in a situation where you are with these 100% disabled veterans on a daily basis you no NOTHING of what you speak!  I would give ANYTHING to have my husband whole again (again, you would see him and think there is nothing wrong - he looks fit, he looks strong, he looks whole).  As for Disney, we were there over New Years a few months ago and yes, we had access to rides = 5 of us total.  Sorry, not going to have dad go by himself while the rest of us wait in line.  Do I feel bad? No, I don't.  Please don't judge.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Lilsia said:


> What have FP got to do with DAS? I know, absolutely nothing. It sounds like a bunch of wasteful, frivolous lawsuits against some deep pockets. And can you link that article?




DAS has nothing to do with Fast Pass except that after a person gets a return time, waits until the time has elapsed and returns to the ride, they are taken in on the FP line. I wasn’t talking about FP. I was talking about the way Six Flags is doing their disability passes - requiring a doctor’s note. I will see if I can find the article. I read it in passing, but if I find it, I will post here.


----------



## Lilsia

MS_Warrior said:


> DAS has nothing to do with Fast Pass except that after a person gets a return time, waits until the time has elapsed and returns to the ride, they are taken in on the FP line. I wasn’t talking about FP. I was talking about the way Six Flags is doing their disability passes - requiring a doctor’s note. I will see if I can find the article. I read it in passing, but if I find it, I will post here.



Ok, I thought you were talking about WDW.


----------



## Evita_W

OurBigTrip said:


> According to the Six Flags website, they are fully compliant with ADA and HIPAA.  As lanejudy noted above, it may be because the accommodations provided have a price attached for non-disabled guests.


They are definitely incorrect about that, there has to be accomodations that don't have a price attached or a doctor's note required.....bit that I would go to Six Flags anyway.


----------



## WonderlandisReality

There have always been those who complain that someone doesn’t look disabled enough. I remember it happening to my Mom when I was 3 and she was getting me and my currently attached IV apparatus out of the backseat of our car. It’s not new and most of us run into it from time to time. 
I can truly say that I have never seen anyone abuse a parking space to my knowledge. I am not naive enough to think that it never happens but it is either so exceedingly rare that in my nearly 40 years I haven’t seen it or I am a hermit who never goes anywhere. I will say going off the criteria for a handicap placard in our state 8/9 of my family meet the narrow qualifications. And more often than not we DON’T use it. Walking 150 into your local chain restaurant to be seated is a whole different experience than walking half a mile just to the turnstiles of a Disney Park.
As far as DAS, it literally pains me to read some of the “do you think I qualify” when posters clearly qualify. Most people question themselves way more about accommodations such as these than they ought to. And I have been guilty of trying to do rides without a DAS or similar accommodation until my child with microcephaly, severe fetal alcohol syndrome-affected, with severe trauma from her abusive orphanage literally melts down and starts self injurious behavior. But I have also been told by random entitled people that the same child doesn’t look disabled (even with the microcephalic head, go figure). 
Disney has always been wonderful for our family to work with. From bathroom custodians offering encouragement while I sit on the floor and rock my 8 year old to housekeeping staff who go to a different resort to find us a bath seat for the shower to park CM who gives us additional replacement wheelchair/stroller tags for when one gets ruined in the rain to ride attendants who have never been impatient when we take a little extra time to get on and off. Never a bad interaction.


----------



## mamabunny

I kind of want to shift the narrative for a moment...

The last year or so, I have been with my personal medical team on a (far too regular) basis.  They all know I'm a "Disney person", and once they heard we had to cancel our Jan 2021 trip because of my emergency surgery, every.single.one of my doctors offered me a "note" for my next trip.  

Every. Single. One.

Now, I took a moment to educate each of them about DAS, and how it works, and why I didn't personally need it (because my needs are primarily mobility-based, and are served by my personal mobility devices).

But they were all shocked, and more than one of them told me that they still have people regularly ask for those "doctors notes" for WDW and/or DL.

As you work with your medical team, please check with them, and let them know that for Disney, their notes will not be used in the decision-making process by CMs when it comes to the DAS.  Helping to educate doctors and nurses can - in the long run - help rein in a certain amount of fraud as well.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Evita_W said:


> They are definitely incorrect about that, there has to be accomodations that don't have a price attached or a doctor's note required.....bit that I would go to Six Flags anyway.


Well they’ve been doing it for years, so I’m guessing the lawsuits will be rolling in anytime.


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> Well they’ve been doing it for years, so I’m guessing the lawsuits will be rolling in anytime.



Who knows if it will ever happen. Any changes Disney makes will most likely be met with lawsuits, though. Just as the DAS change was met lawsuits. 

Personally, I think the DAS is one of the most fair accommodations because it just allows alternate waiting areas rather than the lines.


----------



## OurBigTrip

MS_Warrior said:


> Who knows if it will ever happen. Any changes Disney makes will most likely be met with lawsuits, though. Just as the DAS change was met lawsuits.
> 
> Personally, I think the DAS is one of the most fair accommodations because it just allows alternate waiting areas rather than the lines.


I agree 100% - I think Disney always has a target on them due to the depth of their pockets

I’m not a fan of having to provide a note or proof - I think Disney does it well, although I think that a few CMs probably are a little more apt to give them just because the guests ask for one, rather than basing it on the actual need.


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> I agree 100% - I think Disney always has a target on them due to the depth of their pockets
> 
> I’m not a fan of having to provide a note or proof - I think Disney does it well, although I think that a few CMs probably are a little more apt to give them just because the guests ask for one, rather than basing it on the actual need.



Very possibly. I’ve never asked for one, so I don’t know what it’s like. So far my DS has been able to handle the lines, etc. He has Down Syndrome and I’ve had people in the parks push me to get one for him, but he’s got the patience of Job. As long as I have my ECV (now a wheelchair), I’m fine. I get tired easily, but I just go back to the room early.


----------



## DisneyOma

notatallmagic said:


> We are new-ish users of the DAS system.  I think the issue now is that without FastPass, other riders are more aware of the system, and more upset by the seeming advantage (they likely don't understand that we wait just as long; just not in one place).  Without DAS, we could no longer do Disney or any other amusement park, but my daughter looks "normal", so I'm sure people question our need.
> 
> One of our primary reasons to use DAS initially had to do with the newer Covid rules, and how they impacted our situation.  We MIGHT be able to get by on most rides/lines with the old line rules, low crowd levels, and carefully crafted FastPasses...but maybe not.  I think so many are frustrated because of the July overcrowding and waits.
> 
> Our most recent trip, my daughter had a life-threatening event caused by a failure of DAS to work the way it normally does/should - so it is necessary for us.  She has also taken to wearing her medical devices proudly in plain view; I think maybe so that people can now "see" that she has a real reason to use "FastPass" line.  Either way, I'm grateful.



Would you mind explaining the DAS failure? Was the wait too long? We're here now and some of the waits have been over 10 minutes, closer to 20. I think that's going to be more common as WDW still doesn't have enough open shops, shows and restaurants to take the increased crowds.



Disneyfan754321 said:


> It's so funny  last time we were there , the line for DAS was super long. So I had to wait while my son waited inside in the air and  when it was our turn  people behind me  got upset that i had to  cut back in  because I had to leave for a second to go get him.
> 
> These cheaters have no idea what we go through everyday  and  if we could give up the disability we would  happily stand in every line.



That's a tricky one - did you tell the people behind you (and in the area) what you needed to do?



TwoMisfits said:


> I would welcome this idea 100%.  I don't even mind bringing the actual medical records, not just a doc's note.



And what if those medical records meant nothing to the CM and you didn't get the pass? A medical record doesn't say anything about needs either, just condition.



JenGo2020 said:


> A different point of view.  My husband is a 100% disabled veteran.  To the "normal" eye you would never, ever know he has any issues.  He has a disabled veterans handicap license plates - he gets the stink eye at times by people thinking he is cheating the system. Until you have been in a situation where you are with these 100% disabled veterans on a daily basis you no NOTHING of what you speak!  I would give ANYTHING to have my husband whole again (again, you would see him and think there is nothing wrong - he looks fit, he looks strong, he looks whole).  As for Disney, we were there over New Years a few months ago and yes, we had access to rides = 5 of us total.  Sorry, not going to have dad go by himself while the rest of us wait in line.  Do I feel bad? No, I don't.  Please don't judge.



Okay, I'm going to try to ask this without sounding like a jerk, and mods, feel free to delete if I don't get it right - but if your husband looks fit, strong, etc, then how is he 100% disabled? To me, 100% disabled means a nonverbal, mentally disabled, and physically disabled person, like my cousin's daughter who is an adult but cannot walk, talk, or take care of any of her own needs. She is not toilet trained, cannot sit upright without support, and has no language at all to communicate.  Is the term 100% disabled veteran a military designation?


----------



## OurBigTrip

DisneyOma said:


> Is the term 100% disabled veteran a military designation?


Yes, it’s a rating that helps determine the amount of disability payments from the government.

I’m with you on the previous question about a DAS failure…in my mind, there is really no such thing, since it’s not a work or not work thing.


----------



## MS_Warrior

[QUOTE="DisneyOma, post: 63273694, member: 

Okay, I'm going to try to ask this without sounding like a jerk, and mods, feel free to delete if I don't get it right - but if your husband looks fit, strong, etc, then how is he 100% disabled? To me, 100% disabled means a nonverbal, mentally disabled, and physically disabled person, like my cousin's daughter who is an adult but cannot walk, talk, or take care of any of her own needs. She is not toilet trained, cannot sit upright without support, and has no language at all to communicate.  Is the term 100% disabled veteran a military designation?
[/QUOTE]

100% is Military designation. Depending on level of disability, the military signs a percentage.

However, your perception of what 100% means and someone else's may be quite different. Some associate 100% with whether a person can work or not. Others expect it to be totally dependent.


----------



## Evita_W

OurBigTrip said:


> Well they’ve been doing it for years, so I’m guessing the lawsuits will be rolling in anytime.


No, because they don't have money and because they use a third party, so both point the finger at each other, so between both of those issues, it isn't worth suing. This is a prime example of why we need an ADA enforcement agency that has the authority to fine and shut down businesses if appropriate. Additionally, the fines from larger companies that can afford the fines and should be used to help the smaller businesses that can't afford it, to make the necessary changes. This whole you have to sue to get things changed needs to go.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Evita_W said:


> No, because they don't have money and because they use a third party, so both point the finger at each other, so between both of those issues, it isn't worth suing. This is a prime example of why we need an ADA enforcement agency that has the authority to fine and shut down businesses if appropriate. Additionally, the fines from larger companies that can afford the fines and should be used to help the smaller businesses that can't afford it, to make the necessary changes. This whole you have to sue to get things changed needs to go.



Couldn’t disagree more, but to each their own.


----------



## DisSurfer878

SueM in MN said:


> You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think. There are still many people using the Fastpass Return lines besides DAS, including Rider Swap, guest recovery passes for a ride shutdown or some other problem, VIP Tour groups (sometimes the VIP tour guide gets their guests into the line, but the the guests go on the attraction and meet the tour guide afterwards.
> My husband, youngest DD and I were at WDW in June. A couple of times, we noticed large numbers of people entering the Fastpass line; we found out later they were doing some kind of Fastpass testing.
> 
> Seeing someone running or walking fast from a handicapped parking spot doesn’t mean no one in the group is disabled or that they were borrowing someone‘s handicapped parking permit. It could be someone excited who has energy in the morning. Or maybe, the disabled person is a child with autism who is perfectly capable of walking and running.
> Seeing one person using a wheelchair/ECV and later another person using it doesn’t mean they are ‘cheating’. People who don’t need one all the time frequently either share it or walk for a while while someone else uses it. When my kids were little, we sometimes carried the younger one and her sister rode her wheelchair. Same thing happened with a friend’s 2 kids; both could walk and even run. The wheelchair was for her oldest son who had an inoperable heart condition and died in his sleep when he was 18.
> 
> Looking up a doctor or clinic address on line just shows it exists, not that the doctor actually wrote a letter or even cares for the patient. And, leaving a message for a doctor isn’t as easy as doing a text. When we need to contact one of my daughter’s providers, it’s either leaving a message on the MyChart message system or calling the clinic, being on hold and leaving a message. Either one will get us a call or message back in about 2 working days.
> 
> This board began in 1999 and I’ve been a Moderator since the start. In 1999, many websites were saying guests needed to bring a doctor letter to request the program in effect at that time - GAC (Guest Assistance Card).
> Some people posted then that their doctor required a visit to write a letter; others‘ doctors charged a fee for writing a letter, which is only fair because it did take the doctor’s time. The patient had to pay; insurance would not because neither the visit or letter were medically necessary.
> On the other hand, some people got legitimate letters from their doctor without medical need. A couple situations I remember people reporting about:
> - a healthy pregnant woman got a letter saying she was disabled (her doctor told her pregnant women deserve to not wait)
> - a family with 3 non disabled children got a letter saying one was disabled (her doctor said anyone taking 3 small children deserved to not wait)
> 
> And, then there were blogs where people wrote how to get GAC. Some gave instructions and text for how to write a fake doctor letter, including how to make official looking letterhead
> 
> i personally think don’t think it’s fair or right to make peopke with real disabilities jump thru a bunch of hoops to address a perceived appearance of some possible cheats.


We have also seen plenty of people who got pixie dusted by CMs and given a FP or escorted to a ride for one reason or another. I've seen plenty of reports about this online and in person


----------



## DisSurfer878

To anybody on this thread who has said someone is not disabled enough because they got a return time and then went in line elsewhere; I cannot believe this needs explaining but:

getting a return time for a 2 hour wait for mine train, and then being able to wait in line for 15 minutes for the carousel does NOT mean they are "not disabled enough" to need a DAS and you need to be outta here with that nonsense.


----------



## Branderson610

Once, I asked a Disney Rep, why they don't require medical information like Six Flags does to get a DAS pass. The rep stated, they couldn't ask for that information because fast passes were free and monateraly there was no gain.  Since, Six Flags charges for fast passes there is a monetary difference that allowed them to get paperwork because you are getting a paid service for free. So, maybe if Disney goes to paid fast passes they would implement a system that verifies for to get a DAS.


----------



## WonderlandisReality

Branderson610 said:


> Once, I asked a Disney Rep, why they don't require medical information like Six Flags does to get a DAS pass. The rep stated, they couldn't ask for that information because fast passes were free and monateraly there was no gain.  Since, Six Flags charges for fast passes there is a monetary difference that allowed them to get paperwork because you are getting a paid service for free. So, maybe if Disney goes to paid fast passes they would implement a system that verifies for to get a DAS.


Universal charges for Express Pass and we didn’t need to supply medical documentation to get their DAS equivalent


----------



## OurBigTrip

WonderlandisReality said:


> Universal charges for Express Pass and we didn’t need to supply medical documentation to get their DAS equivalent


Does the DAS equivalent use a return time, or does it offer instant access to the Express line?


----------



## WonderlandisReality

OurBigTrip said:


> Does the DAS equivalent use a return time, or does it offer instant access to the Express line?


For us it worked like express pass on everything except the train. We got a return time for 45 minutes later, went to the bathroom and the attendant caught my attention and said we could board right away so I think, both?


----------



## HopperFan

OurBigTrip said:


> Does the DAS equivalent use a return time, or does it offer instant access to the Express line?



We have used the Universal Disability Pass for years. It is a card that you present at the attraction and they give you a return time to come back.  I always read if the line is less than 30 minutes they were supposed to let you go in without a wait ... but we found that only happened when it was closer to 15-20 minutes. SO it has never worked as an Express Pass for us.

It is a more difficult to get than an DAS, and they are very strict with the number 6 on it. A few times we have had 7 and were always refused.


----------



## Branderson610

WonderlandisReality said:


> Universal charges for Express Pass and we didn’t need to supply medical documentation to get their DAS equivalent


I think it just depends on the company, Six Flags, Sea World and Cedar Point all have a documentation verification system.The Cast member said that because Fast Passes are free to everyone that DAS does not give an advantage opposed to other parks where that service is not free and this allows them to validate handing out paid services for free.


----------



## Evita_W

Branderson610 said:


> I think it just depends on the company, Six Flags, Sea World and Cedar Point all have a documentation verification system.The Cast member said that because Fast Passes are free to everyone that DAS does not give an advantage opposed to other parks where that service is not free and this allows them to validate handing out paid services for free.


Cedar Fair and SeaWorld parks do not have a verification system, but they do all more questions to advise what is safe for each individual.


----------



## Yinn

markpenske said:


> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.



*Maybe?* A family went to do a handicap drop off.  I can see a family helping someone out of the carat the drop off point before going back to the parking lot to park.  This may be especially true if the family finds the individual stubborn and refuses to accept the use of a wheelchair.

Why the handicap lot?  Because while Mr. Stubborn was essentially forced out of the car to be dropped off, perhaps Mr. Stubborn is not ok with waiting to be picked up and will insist on walking with the family to the car at the end of the day.



markpenske said:


> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.



*Maybe?* Someone has an unrepairable bone chip/fracture in their foot.  Capable of normal movement, heck even jogging.  However 6-9 miles of walking in hot weather, hours of standing aggravates it, causing swelling, pain, which shifts the pressure and weight just enough to cause an occasional dislocation in their toes.  One of which is sudden and quite painful when it happens and until you get pop it back in.  Perhaps this is the same Mr. Stubborn and refuses to use a wheelchair and/or scooter because they are fully capable of walking.  Yet the concerned family rented one just in case and the kids are more than happy to fight over who gets to play with it while avoiding some walking.



markpenske said:


> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.



The problem is you don't know who is and who isn't abusing the system.  Your post may very well be valid, there may be folks who are abusing the system.  However, you're also adding pressure to all the Mr. Stubborns out there. 

There are families who struggle to get their disabled loved ones to accept reality.  Who want nothing more than for them to be comfortable during the trip.  It's bad enough to have to fight them because "I'm fully capable d!@%t!"  They are working through their own pride and ego, unjustified judgment only gives them more reason to fight it and potentially injure themselves further.


----------



## notatallmagic

DisneyOma said:


> Would you mind explaining the DAS failure? Was the wait too long? We're here now and some of the waits have been over 10 minutes, closer to 20. I think that's going to be more common as WDW still doesn't have enough open shops, shows and restaurants to take the increased crowds.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a tricky one - did you tell the people behind you (and in the area) what you needed to do?
> 
> 
> 
> And what if those medical records meant nothing to the CM and you didn't get the pass? A medical record doesn't say anything about needs either, just condition.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm going to try to ask this without sounding like a jerk, and mods, feel free to delete if I don't get it right - but if your husband looks fit, strong, etc, then how is he 100% disabled? To me, 100% disabled means a nonverbal, mentally disabled, and physically disabled person, like my cousin's daughter who is an adult but cannot walk, talk, or take care of any of her own needs. She is not toilet trained, cannot sit upright without support, and has no language at all to communicate.  Is the term 100% disabled veteran a military designation?



Thanks for your question!  Our epic DAS fail was having to wait over 25 minutes to check back in for our DAS for Splash Mountain.  We already had our return time; and the check in line was super crowded, and 100% in the sun with a heat index of over 100 degrees.  Our total wait time ended up being over 45 minutes, with my daughter experiencing a medical crisis during the ride.  Totally avoidable, had the DAS signage (there wasn't any, resulting in load of people in the DAS line that didn't even have DAS) and Cast Member (untrained, one poor guy) been appropriate.  We wont' be back for awhile, at least until Disney gets their act together.


----------



## notatallmagic

Evita_W said:


> Cedar Fair and SeaWorld parks do not have a verification system, but they do all more questions to advise what is safe for each individual.



We live less than 30 minutes from Cedar Point, and have not had to "verify" anything.  The process for approval was virtually identical to Disney's, but we didn't have to, nor were we asked, to provide any documentation, nor were any specific questions asked.


----------



## MissSha

markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.
> 
> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!
> 
> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.


Perhaps this would not happen as often if people with scooters and their families were not put in the front of the line for attractions?  Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?


----------



## Branderson610

notatallmagic said:


> We live less than 30 minutes from Cedar Point, and have not had to "verify" anything.  The process for approval was virtually identical to Disney's, but we didn't have to, nor were we asked, to provide any documentation, nor were any specific questions asked.


Okay, I thought I saw they needed documentation when I was researching that park, guess I was wrong. However, I have done six flags many times and you do need documentation.


----------



## lanejudy

MissSha said:


> Perhaps this would not happen as often if people with scooters and their families were not put in the front of the line for attractions?  Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?


Scooters, wheelchairs, mobility devices do NOT get front-of-the-line access to attractions.  The vast majority go through the regular mainstream queue, while some use DAS which requires an equivalent waiting period outside of the queue.


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## DisSurfer878

MissSha said:


> Perhaps this would not happen as often if people with scooters and their families were not put in the front of the line for attractions?  Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?


I don't understand where the idea that this is a thing comes from, because it's not, and if you did two seconds of research, you'd know that.


----------



## HopperFan

notatallmagic said:


> Thanks for your question!  Our epic DAS fail was having to wait over 25 minutes to check back in for our DAS for Splash Mountain.  We already had our return time; and the check in line was super crowded, and 100% in the sun with a heat index of over 100 degrees.  Our total wait time ended up being over 45 minutes, with my daughter experiencing a medical crisis during the ride.  Totally avoidable, had the DAS signage (there wasn't any, resulting in load of people in the DAS line that didn't even have DAS) and Cast Member (untrained, one poor guy) been appropriate.  We wont' be back for awhile, at least until Disney gets their act together.



I will verify that this situation was a problem for us as well in July, although I wouldn't call it a DAS failure but rather a staffing failure, which impacted DAS guests.

Splash was one of the worst locations. Normal times there are approx 3 CMs at the entrance but over two days there we experienced only 1. No one was working the entrance to the Standby Line. ONE CM was working the entrance to the FP+ line where he had to (1) Give out DAS times (2) Give out Child Swap times (3) "Debate" with guests asking for DAS time who didn't have DAS (4) "Debate" with guests trying to use their MagicBand to just enter the line because .... (5) Check back in Child Swap guests (6) Check back in DAS guests (7) Check back in Recovery FP guests. At times the line was longer than when FP+ is operating but it was understaffed.


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## MissSha

DisSurfer878 said:


> I don't understand where the idea that this is a thing comes from, because it's not, and if you did two seconds of research, you'd know that.


No need for me to do any seconds of research....not my post, merely a reply to one.


----------



## MissSha

lanejudy said:


> Scooters, wheelchairs, mobility devices do NOT get front-of-the-line access to attractions.  The vast majority go through the regular mainstream queue, while some use DAS which requires an equivalent waiting period outside of the queue.


Not according to a vlog posted on youtube just last night when that clearly happened. I have no problem with people using scooters...it may make the difference about whether they can handle the physical toll of a disney trip. But to say they do not get front of the line access is not always the case.....let's face it, we've all seen it done.


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## notatallmagic

Branderson610 said:


> Okay, I thought I saw they needed documentation when I was researching that park, guess I was wrong. However, I have done six flags many times and you do need documentation.



I can only speak to our experience; but we didn't need anything for Cedar Point.  I certainly would be prepared though, especially if you are driving in from a distance.


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## notatallmagic

HopperFan said:


> I will verify that this situation was a problem for us as well in July, although I wouldn't call it a DAS failure but rather a staffing failure, which impacted DAS guests.
> 
> Splash was one of the worst locations. Normal times there are approx 3 CMs at the entrance but over two days there we experienced only 1. No one was working the entrance to the Standby Line. ONE CM was working the entrance to the FP+ line where he had to (1) Give out DAS times (2) Give out Child Swap times (3) "Debate" with guests asking for DAS time who didn't have DAS (4) "Debate" with guest trying to use their MagicBand to just enter the line because .... (5) Check back in Child Swap guests (6) Check back in DAS guests (7) Check back in Recovery FP guests. At times the line was longer than when FP+ is operating but it was understaffed.



I agree; I think proper staffing (most rides had at least 3 people working DAS) would have helped.  However, the line was more a mass of people, many/most of which weren't using DAS at all.  I think signage and additional Cast Members further out to direc traffic would have helped too.  Nobody in the mass near us was using DAS; lots of wheelchairs without DAS, Recovery FastPasses (group of 12 in front of us), and other circumstances.  And having an "earning my ears" Cast Member by himself was a trainwreck.


----------



## Lilsia

MissSha said:


> Perhaps this would not happen as often if people with scooters and their families were not put in the front of the line for attractions?  Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?



Now I see what your issue is. You are thinking that things are still as they used to be. GAC changed to DAS in 2013. So not since then has a wheelchair or ECV been sent to the front of the line. And yes, this did pretty much cut off most of the abuse. I remember it well, because there was a very significant, very noticeable drop in the number of rented wheelchairs and ECVs after that. I also remember all of the people arguing with cast members about it. When was the last time that you were actually at WDW?


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## lanejudy

MissSha said:


> Not according to a vlog posted on youtube just last night when that clearly happened. I have no problem with people using scooters...it may make the difference about whether they can handle the physical toll of a disney trip. But to say they do not get front of the line access is not always the case.....let's face it, we've all seen it done.


I did not see the Vlog post you mention, and I don't know if there is some misunderstanding of the situation, but I can assure you that mobility devices do not receive front-of-the-line access.  Only children on Make-A-Wish trips receive that.  To others in a standby queue it may _seem _as though DAS is getting to go through quickly, but what they don't see is that the party arrived earlier to get a DAS return time and then went elsewhere to wait.  When they return they use the FP queue.  Others who may be using the FP queue at this time include people on VIP tours, Club 33 members, and guests with recovery FPs (which may be issued due to a ride breakdown or some problem during their visit).


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## MissSha

Lilsia said:


> Now I see what your issue is. You are thinking that things are still as they used to be. GAC changed to DAS in 2013. So not since then has a wheelchair or ECV been sent to the front of the line. And yes, this did pretty much cut off most of the abuse. I remember it well, because there was a very significant, very noticeable drop in the number of rented wheelchairs and ECVs after that. I also remember all of the people arguing with cast members about it. When was the last time that you were actually at WDW?



LOL....every year, sometimes twice each, since 2005.  I'm going again in less than a week.  Must...get....new....glasses....as I'm clearly seeing things that aren't happening


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## Lilsia

MissSha said:


> LOL....every year, sometimes twice each, since 2005.  I'm going again in less than a week.  Must...get....new....glasses....as I'm clearly seeing things that aren't happening



You are telling us that everyone in an wheelchair or ECV is skipping the line?  That is not what is happening. There are a few where the lines are not accessible, so they are getting a return time, just like DAS. They don't just show up and get right on. But most lines are accessible and so chairs go through the line like everyone else. This is not our opinion, it is fact.


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## ZellyB

MissSha said:


> LOL....every year, sometimes twice each, since 2005.  I'm going again in less than a week.  Must...get....new....glasses....as I'm clearly seeing things that aren't happening



I think you are misinterpreting what you are seeing.  Since you are seeing them return and get into the FP line, I presume you weren't there when they first presented to get a return time.  And again, mobility scooters or wheelchairs alone don't get you a DAS.  Maybe this time look to see if you see scooters and/or wheelchairs in the regular line.  I can assure you that you will.  Don't you think that if just a scooter or wheelchair got you to use the FP line that indeed everyone in one would use it?  So why do you see them in regular lines?  Because mobility issues alone don't get you a DAS.  Could you also explain if when you say Front of the Line you actually just mean the FP return lane?  Because as far as I know DAS doesn't allow people to pass by others in the FP lane.

Sorry if I seem short-tempered, but your posts are just full of misinformation and you seem to clearly think you can judge someone's need to use a scooter and how they are abusing lines merely by your brief encounters in a theme park.

I'd love to see the vlog you saw.  I'm not saying that there aren't people who abuse DAS, but I don't think it's some kind of rampant issue.


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## MissSha

ZellyB said:


> I think you are misinterpreting what you are seeing.  Since you are seeing them return and get into the FP line, I presume you weren't there when they first presented to get a return time.  And again, mobility scooters or wheelchairs alone don't get you a DAS.  Maybe this time look to see if you see scooters and/or wheelchairs in the regular line.  I can assure you that you will.  Don't you think that if just a scooter or wheelchair got you to use the FP line that indeed everyone in one would use it?  So why do you see them in regular lines?  Because mobility issues alone don't get you a DAS.  Could you also explain if when you say Front of the Line you actually just mean the FP return lane?  Because as far as I know DAS doesn't allow people to pass by others in the FP lane.
> 
> Sorry if I seem short-tempered, but your posts are just full of misinformation and you seem to clearly think you can judge someone's need to use a scooter and how they are abusing lines merely by your brief encounters in a theme park.
> 
> I'd love to see the vlog you saw.  I'm not saying that there aren't people who abuse DAS, but I don't think it's some kind of rampant issue.



LOL...yes, you are short tempered and if YOU read my posts properly you saw where I said I have NO problem with people using scooters, in fact it could mean the difference of whether they go to disney or not.  This was not my post, merely a response to some else's which clearly DID have problems with what THEY labeled as "abuse"....not ME.  Where did I say it's a "rampant" issue please?  I believe I said "from time to time".


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## MissSha

Lilsia said:


> You are telling us that everyone in an wheelchair or ECV is skipping the line?  That is not what is happening. There are a few where the lines are not accessible, so they are getting a return time, just like DAS. They don't just show up and get right on. But most lines are accessible and so chairs go through the line like everyone else. This is not our opinion, it is fact.


nope....I'm not.  I believe my comment, after the sentence where I said I have no problem with people using scooters (there was more) was ..."from time to time".  Please show me where I said "everyone in a wheelchair is skipping the line"?


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## Lilsia

MissSha said:


> nope....I'm not.  I believe my comment, after the sentence where I said I have no problem with people using scooters (there was more) was ..."from time to time".  Please show me where I said "everyone in a wheelchair is skipping the line"?





MissSha said:


> Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?



This is literally your quote.


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## MissSha

Lilsia said:


> This is literally your quote.


LOL....do you see the quotation marks? that means I was quoting the person who began the thread. Literally


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## Lilsia

MissSha said:


> LOL....do you see the quotation marks? that means I was quoting the person who began the thread. Literally



People use quotation marks for phrases all the time. Your post very much looks as if you believe that those in chairs get to skip the line. Maybe try to see how it looks to everyone else and rewrite it so there is no confusion.


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## ZellyB

MissSha said:


> LOL...yes, you are short tempered and if YOU read my posts properly you saw where I said I have NO problem with people using scooters, in fact it could mean the difference of whether they go to disney or not.  This was not my post, merely a response to some else's which clearly DID have problems with what THEY labeled as "abuse"....not ME.  Where did I say it's a "rampant" issue please?  I believe I said "from time to time".



Ok.  Go on believing that your posts were not at all a problem that might have triggered the responses you are getting.  It's my responsibility to control the way I respond to others, not to control what they think or say, so I'll remind myself of that and move on from interacting with you.  Enjoy the remainder of your day and your next trip to Disney.


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## MissSha

Lilsia said:


> People use quotation marks for phrases all the time. Your post very much looks as if you believe that those in chairs get to skip the line. Maybe try to see how it looks to everyone else and rewrite it so there is no confusion.


it's just that we all need to slow down and listen to one another.  Just like in conversation, we're so busy plotting our reply that we don't listen to what's being said.  Same thing is true in many of the posts I read.....


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## MissSha

ZellyB said:


> Ok.  Go on believing that your posts were not at all a problem that might have triggered the responses you are getting.  It's my responsibility to control the way I respond to others, not to control what they think or say, so I'll remind myself of that and move on from interacting with you.  Enjoy the remainder of your day and your next trip to Disney.


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## Lilsia

MissSha said:


> it's just that we all need to slow down and listen to one another.  Just like in conversation, we're so busy plotting our reply that we don't listen to what's being said.  Same thing is true in many of the posts I read.....



I am not plotting, I am going off what I am reading. You can not tell inflection in these written words so it is best to make your point clear. Now that we know there is confusion, how about you tell us your meaning.


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## disney212

I am 54 and will have my 38th surgery in September. I have great days where I can still run a bit and do a cart wheel. I also have days where I can't stand up unassisted. Most days are a combo of both. I have a handicapped parking tag. I could be one of those you have seen hopping out of the car with a sprint to the gate. What you didn't see was that 2 hours later my husband had to help me get back to the car. I also have a DAS but only use it on bad days or when I need to eat as I also have Crohn's so I will get a return time after I have eaten as I never know when my crohn's will strike, it sure beats the trips when I couldn't eat OR drink while at the parks for a fear of accidents. I would be happy to provide proof for a DAS just like I had to for my handicapped parking tag and my work accommodations.


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## Weedy

The problem with people thinking that certain people don’t need a DAS is because you don’t know until you walk in their shoes.
Something that more people can relate too is …how many times before you had kids did you say “My child will never do that (fill in the blank” How did that work out for you
I also think that on Disboards we see lots of people asking will this qualify so it looks like there are lots of people each day when in reality not that many.
One more thought with things changing with Fastpass I’ve read that a few more attractions may be going to Boarding Groups or virtual queues this will allow more people to experience other things when attraction lines get long. ** I know a lot of shows and other things to do will have to open to allow this.


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## Branderson610

I think some of the live streamers are helping fuel the fire that some are just getting DAS passes that might not need them. I have seen live streamers walk through the park for hours and have DAS passes, then they let all of their friends on the DAS line. Then, eat and drink around the park for hours every other day and when it comes to getting in line they have a DAS pass and it looks very strange.


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## MS_Warrior

Branderson610 said:


> Once, I asked a Disney Rep, why they don't require medical information like Six Flags does to get a DAS pass. The rep stated, they couldn't ask for that information because fast passes were free and monateraly there was no gain.  Since, Six Flags charges for fast passes there is a monetary difference that allowed them to get paperwork because you are getting a paid service for free. So, maybe if Disney goes to paid fast passes they would implement a system that verifies for to get a DAS.



Except the DAS doesn’t work like a fast pass. With the DAS you get a return time that’s equivalent to the standby wait time. It only gives the DAS holder an alternative place to wait.


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## MS_Warrior

MissSha said:


> LOL....every year, sometimes twice each, since 2005.  I'm going again in less than a week.  Must...get....new....glasses....as I'm clearly seeing things that aren't happening



You are probably seeing them go to the front of the line after they’ve been given a return time. I use a wheelchair and when it won’t go through the line, they give me a return time equivalent to the standby wait time. When I return, they take me through an alternative entrances. (Space Mountain is the fast pass line). However, I’ve still had to wait the entire time. It may appear to those in line that I’ve been sent to the head of the line without waiting, but I’ve just been waiting in a more or less virtual queue.


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## Branderson610

MS_Warrior said:


> Except the DAS doesn’t work like a fast pass. With the DAS you get a return time that’s equivalent to the standby wait time. It only gives the DAS holder an alternative place to wait.


Das does work like a Fast Pass for waits less than 30 minutes.You don't get a return time, the cast member usually let's you through.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Evita_W said:


> Cedar Fair and SeaWorld parks do not have a verification system, but they do all more questions to advise what is safe for each individual.



This! I live about a mile from one of the SeaWorld parks and have annual passes. They have never asked what my disability is, or for a doctor’s note. They have a “Pass” that’s good for six months. They ask me several questions about safety only.


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## MS_Warrior

MissSha said:


> Perhaps this would not happen as often if people with scooters and their families were not put in the front of the line for attractions?  Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?



We aren’t! I’ve been using a wheelchair/ECV for years. Many years ago, the lines that weren’t accessible, we would get put ahead. However, for the last quite a few years, we are given return times. Most lines, however are accessible. Those with the DAS are given return times. In fact, this was such a big changes, Disney faced lawsuits over it from parents of children with Autism because they felt it was unfair. Disney won the law suits because it gives everyone the same access. Those who need the DAS or are in a WC in line that isn’t accessible, are given return times.

The only time a WC is put to the front of the line is at the buses and that is only for safety sakes to prevent to anyone from getting their toes run over by a scooter, etc.


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## SueM in MN

Branderson610 said:


> Das does work like a Fast Pass for waits less than 30 minutes.You don't get a return time, the cast member usually let's you through.


We‘ve been using DAS since it came out and have never been just ‘let thru’ unless the Standby wait was 15 minutes or less. We’ve always been given a Return Time if the Standby wait was 15-20 minutes or more.


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## gap2368

Branderson610 said:


> Das does work like a Fast Pass for waits less than 30 minutes.You don't get a return time, the cast member usually let's you through.


I have not been sent thought the FP line when there is a 30 minute or less wait for a ride but been given a return time for 20 minutes and then I come back


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## Branderson610

gap2368 said:


> I have not been sent thought the FP line when there is a 30 minute or less wait for a ride but been given a return time for 20 minutes and then I come back


I guess every cast member uses their own discretion on when they will let you access the fast pass line when it comes to DAS, I can.j7st speak from my own experience.


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## HopperFan

.


Branderson610 said:


> Das does work like a Fast Pass for waits less than 30 minutes. You don't get a return time, the cast member usually let's you through.



*No it does not. *The SYSTEM creates your return time and unless standby is 10 minutes or less - the amount of time the system takes off your return time making it 0 - the system will give you a return time of the standby minus 10 minutes. Add traveling back and forth, the DAS makes you wait the equivalent or longer than the standby time. It was great when the system began creating the return times because it took the CM out of the equation. CMs do not make that decision.

Now perhaps you are confusing it with Universal who will let guests direct through the line at 30 minutes although that hasn't worked for us either.



Branderson610 said:


> I guess every cast member uses their own discretion on when they will let you access the fast pass line when it comes to DAS.



The SYSTEM creates the return, not the CMs.  I've been using DAS since it started and this has never happened.  We always get a return time unless it is 10 minutes and even then we've sometimes had them direct us to the SB line.


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## OurBigTrip

Branderson610 said:


> I guess every cast member uses their own discretion on when they will let you access the fast pass line when it comes to DAS, I can.j7st speak from my own experience.



And that’s one of the problems, cast members not following Disney’s own policy.


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## SueM in MN

If you saw this cutie in a wheelchair, would you think it was a rented wheelchair to ‘cheat’?
What if she was sitting on a bench, with the wheelchair parked next to her?


This is my youngest DD a long time ago in EPCOT by Norway. When she was this age, posed this way in her wheelchair, I actually heard someone say to her companion (loud enough for me to hear) that ”it’s a shame they let people rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in line.” Based on her comments, it was because my daughter was crossing her leg and swinging the top leg.
She and I were sitting on a bench in Germany when I heard 2 guys behind me make the same comments. Apparently, they believed if someone can get out of their wheelchair, they must not be disabled (she didn’t even get out by herself, I lifted her and arranged her leg for her since she can’t cross it herself).



What about this picture? Does she look disabled? Or pretending to be disabled?
This picture was taken a few years ago when she was just driving around near an overlook at Kali River Rapids while we waited for her dad and friend to come thru on their raft.
Another person waiting in the area commented to their companion “if people are going to rent a wheelchair to skip lines they shouldn’t try so hard to look disabled.” Apparently, my daughter was doing too good of a job of being disabled.

And, there was a time when one of the people assigned to the same table as my family spent most of the meal complaining about how people using wheelchairs were ruining the parks by getting front of line access. That was one uncomfortable meal.
There are quite a few people who think they can tell by looking whether someone is ‘really disabled‘ or not. If they fail so miserably with someone in a wheelchair, how do they think they can do it for other disabilities without physical signs?

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: My daughter has cerebral palsy and is not able to walk, which she uses a wheelchair for. If her only need was to use the wheelchair in line, she would not need or use DAS. 
She has additional disability related needs that are not met by the wheelchair. Those are invisible and are why she uses DAS


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## Evita_W

notatallmagic said:


> We live less than 30 minutes from Cedar Point, and have not had to "verify" anything.  The process for approval was virtually identical to Disney's, but we didn't have to, nor were we asked, to provide any documentation, nor were any specific questions asked.


Ok, SeaWorld and Knott's ask things like can you safely transfer, do you have any artificial limbs (which I find funny when DH is wearing shorts and a t-shirt and they can see all of his limbs.), But definitely no documentation needed, because it.isnt.allowed to be required.


----------



## Evita_W

SueM in MN said:


> If you saw this cutie in a wheelchair, would you think it was a rented wheelchair to ‘cheat’?
> What if she was sitting on a bench, with the wheelchair parked next to her?
> View attachment 597674
> 
> This is my youngest DD a long time ago in EPCOT by Norway. When she was this age, posed this way in her wheelchair, I actually heard someone say to her companion (loud enough for me to hear) that ”it’s a shame they let people rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in line.” Based on her comments, it was because my daughter was crossing her leg and swinging the top leg.
> She and I were sitting on a bench in Germany when I heard 2 guys behind me make the same comments. Apparently, they believed if someone can get out of their wheelchair, they must not be disabled (she didn’t even get out by herself, I lifted her and arranged her leg for her since she can’t cross it herself).
> 
> View attachment 597676
> 
> What about this picture? Does she look disabled? Or pretending to be disabled?
> This picture was taken a few years ago when she was just driving around near an overlook at Kali River Rapids while we waited for her dad and friend to come thru on their raft.
> Another person waiting in the area commented to their companion “if people are going to rent a wheelchair to skip lines they shouldn’t try so hard to look disabled.” Apparently, my daughter was doing too good of a job of being disabled.
> 
> And, there was a time when one of the people assigned to the same table as my family spent most of the meal complaining about how people using wheelchairs were ruining the parks by getting front of line access. That was one uncomfortable meal.
> There are quite a few people who think they can tell by looking whether someone is ‘really disabled‘ or not. If they fail so miserably with someone in a wheelchair, how do they think they can do it for other disabilities without physical signs?


DH would have immediately asked for a new table and/or told them off to a point they would have asked for a new table.


----------



## Evita_W

OurBigTrip said:


> And that’s one of the problems, cast members not following Disney’s own policy.


They do have some discretion, as sometimes there are other operational factors that sometimes makes it better to allow you to use the FP queue right away rather than giving a return time. We had this happen when they knew they had given out a ton of return times just before DH asked for one and we were both there, so they sent us through the FP, as there was no one with a mobility device in line at the time. They may have done so with earlier parties, but the rest didn't have their entire party there at the time. It also sometimes happens when it is just him and I am not going to ride a ride like Mission Space, which he will do, but I won't.


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## Lilsia

Branderson610 said:


> Das does work like a Fast Pass for waits less than 30 minutes.You don't get a return time, the cast member usually let's you through.



That has never been my experience. They take 10 minutes off of the wait time and tell you to come back then. So you don't go right through if the wait is 30 minutes, you come back in 20 and get in the FP line. And if the wait is under 15 minutes, then you are able to just go into the regular line. I don't know where you are getting this information from.


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## gap2368

Lilsia said:


> That has never been my experience. They take 10 minutes off of the wait time and tell you to come back then. So you don't go right through if the wait is 30 minutes, you come back in 20 and get in the FP line. And if the wait is under 15 minutes, then you are able to just go into the regular line. I don't know where you are getting this information from.


I think the other poster is thinking of  universal where if the wait is 30 minutes or less you go right into there exspress lane.


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## Selket

SueM in MN said:


> If you saw this cutie in a wheelchair, would you think it was a rented wheelchair to ‘cheat’?
> What if she was sitting on a bench, with the wheelchair parked next to her?



That's awful the things they saiid - people are truly jerks sometimes.    I think we've seen in this thread that people - even when told over and over that there's no FOTL access for those in WC/ECV still think there is.    You can't fix stupid and you sure don't want to spend your vacation trying!

Your daughter is lovely btw!


----------



## DisneyOma

notatallmagic said:


> Thanks for your question!  Our epic DAS fail was having to wait over 25 minutes to check back in for our DAS for Splash Mountain.  We already had our return time; and the check in line was super crowded, and 100% in the sun with a heat index of over 100 degrees.  Our total wait time ended up being over 45 minutes, with my daughter experiencing a medical crisis during the ride.  Totally avoidable, had the DAS signage (there wasn't any, resulting in load of people in the DAS line that didn't even have DAS) and Cast Member (untrained, one poor guy) been appropriate.  We wont' be back for awhile, at least until Disney gets their act together.



Thanks for the response - yes, we are seeing the same thing, mainly at Splash and FOP. People are trying to access what they think is the FP queue without the proper access. We've found staffing at Splash to be adequate this week, but it's been hard to get over there when the Standby queue is wrapped around that area and has very dense traffic. I'm sorry your daughter had a medical crisis because of it.(((hugs)))



MissSha said:


> Perhaps this would not happen as often if people with scooters and their families were not put in the front of the line for attractions?  Maybe if they waited in the same line as everyone else people wouldn't be as eager to "get some type of advantage"?



Here now with a family friend using a mobility device. We were never given front of the line access. We have been moved to the HC sections of theaters (ITTBAB, Philharmagic) but that's it. We have been using my DAS though, and so people could think it was because of the mobility device. 



MissSha said:


> Not according to a vlog posted on youtube just last night when that clearly happened. I have no problem with people using scooters...it may make the difference about whether they can handle the physical toll of a disney trip. But to say they do not get front of the line access is not always the case.....let's face it, we've all seen it done.



I haven't seen it done at all, and my guess is the "vlog posted on YouTube" was misinformation.



MissSha said:


> LOL....every year, sometimes twice each, since 2005.  I'm going again in less than a week.  Must...get....new....glasses....as I'm clearly seeing things that aren't happening



You could be misinterpreting things you are seeing. 



Branderson610 said:


> Das does work like a Fast Pass for waits less than 30 minutes.You don't get a return time, the cast member usually let's you through.



Nope, not happening with my DAS - I've never gotten right in, but I can handle the shorter queues for the most part. 30 minutes for Standby has given me a return time.


----------



## Yinn

Selket said:


> That's awful the things they saiid - people are truly jerks sometimes.    I think we've seen in this thread that people - even when told over and over that there's no FOTL access for those in WC/ECV still think there is.    You can't fix stupid and you sure don't want to spend your vacation trying!
> 
> Your daughter is lovely btw!



I don't think it's a matter of stupidity, maybe it's all a matter of perspective.  I've been there, standing in line for an hour, still a couple rows from boarding and then all of a sudden a scooter goes wheeling by to the front of the line to be boarded.

To me, where the heck did that scooter come from?  I didn't see it in line.  It's going to the front!  Scooter = front of the line.

What I don't know is that scooter was just in a different place in line and pulled out of it for special boarding.

I'll admit I never had a clue until I was in line this past year behind two absolutely wonderful gentlemen in wheelchairs.  They helped me keep my 5 yr old entertained while we waited the 2 hours for her first Rock n Rollercoaster ride.  At one point I did ask why they were even in line.

When we got into the final line/chain link fence area, a CM came and asked them to go with him.  They gave my anxious daughter some reassuring words and wheeled right on by the rest of the folks in line and from there I couldn't see them anymore.  We waited a little while longer and eventually went on the ride.  

As we exited, we did a rider swap so I sat there waiting for the rest of my family.  I saw them wheel out a short while later.  It wasn't until that moment that I realized..they didn't go to the front.  When we were finished with our ride there was a ride delay, that was probably the ride stopped to allow them extra time to board.  But to everyone else who didn't wait with them, they came from the back and just wheeled on by to the front.


----------



## RoseGold

SueM in MN said:


> This is my youngest DD a long time ago in EPCOT by Norway. When she was this age, posed this way in her wheelchair, I actually heard someone say to her companion (loud enough for me to hear) that ”it’s a shame they let people rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in line.” Based on her comments, it was because my daughter was crossing her leg and swinging the top leg.



I gave up caring what morons at WDW think a long time ago.  It's like the ultimate privilege check to be offended by a wheelchair bound person who you think doesn't "deserve" a small line jump.  As if we wouldn't all trade it in a second.  I think I've even said that a few times.

We had a CAST MEMBER ask my obviously permanently disabled family member in a Whill Ci to "park her scooter" and walk at Beast's Castle.  Bet she won't do that again.


----------



## irish_trip_mom

We first visited Disney when our triplets were 5.  Both of our sons have autism, one more impacted than the other with sensory and anxiety issues.  We could not have done the first trip without the Disability assistance card, and it helped to make us loyal Disney visitors.  We went back the next year, and then to Disney Land and back to Disney World several times.  The last time we visited, the new system was in place, and it was more difficult, but our son was older and was more adaptable to change.  We are considering going back this November again as a family, with the triplets now 20 years old.  It will be a challenge, but when the biggest Toy Story fan ever has yet to enjoy the new attractions, how can we not?   We've always been grateful that Disney does what they can to help our family experience the joy, especially through our son's eyes.  

And when you see the 6'2" skinny kid jumping for joy when he sees Slinky Dog....that's my kid.


----------



## mistysue

Selket said:


> **edited to add that one thing they "used to go out of the way" was to help those with food allergies - the chefs would come out, etc.   However now they have done a great job of making it easier to see what allergens are in what food (for major allergens).  It's nice not to have to call in advance to arrange meals, etc. like I used to have to do for one of my kids.   Rather than curtailing the food service, I think they've made it easier to access the information.



I know I'm late to this party- but going with a person with MANY allergens, the changes they made to food service combined with COVID made food service terrible! We had 30+ minute waits just to order counter service (which we couldn't do on the app) - followed by cast members strongly avoiding checking ingredients, even resulting in receiving food containing allergens because they wouldn't check.

We are basically now restricted to table service only, meaning 90 minute minimum 3 meals/day - or else take chances that nothing risky happens as we have to pretend the allergies aren't there. (which more than once we were TOLD to do) It's easier for people with a single allergy, and I don't know how many allergens you need to get special consideration, but I know it's more than 12.


----------



## Evita_W

mistysue said:


> I know I'm late to this party- but going with a person with MANY allergens, the changes they made to food service combined with COVID made food service terrible! We had 30+ minute waits just to order counter service (which we couldn't do on the app) - followed by cast members strongly avoiding checking ingredients, even resulting in receiving food containing allergens because they wouldn't check.
> 
> We are basically now restricted to table service only, meaning 90 minute minimum 3 meals/day - or else take chances that nothing risky happens as we have to pretend the allergies aren't there. (which more than once we were TOLD to do) It's easier for people with a single allergy, and I don't know how many allergens you need to get special consideration, but I know it's more than 12.


Pretend allergies aren't there? That is insane and depending on the severity of the allergy, highly dangerous. I would ask for a lead at that point, possibly the area manager as well.....that is absurd.


----------



## Selket

mistysue said:


> I know I'm late to this party- but going with a person with MANY allergens, the changes they made to food service combined with COVID made food service terrible!



We haven't been back since covid but that sounds awful.  The allergies in our family are peanut/tree nut and shellfish and he can eat "made in a facility" so it wasn't too hard to order.  Usually they did have someone talk to him directly at QS places.

In the old days I had to call a person who helped us out and she actually had chefs from each restaurant call me back (or I called them directly).  All of those were sit down meals.   Quick service back then required them getting a chef out to talk to him which they still do today sometimes.    It's probably worth an email to guest services to let them know about your experience with the QS places - especially if you can point out which ones served food with allergens in it - so hopefully they can try to work this issue out.


----------



## mistysue

Selket said:


> We haven't been back since covid but that sounds awful.  The allergies in our family are peanut/tree nut and shellfish and he can eat "made in a facility" so it wasn't too hard to order.  Usually they did have someone talk to him directly at QS places.
> 
> In the old days I had to call a person who helped us out and she actually had chefs from each restaurant call me back (or I called them directly).  All of those were sit down meals.   Quick service back then required them getting a chef out to talk to him which they still do today sometimes.    It's probably worth an email to guest services to let them know about your experience with the QS places - especially if you can point out which ones served food with allergens in it - so hopefully they can try to work this issue out.



We wrote with specifics. 
In the past, we rarely would hear back after turning in a form pre-trip and learned about a decade ago we do mainly table service. He was top 9 plus buckwheat, cottonseed and sunflower,  it has gradually decreased to egg, dairy, peanut, shellfish and sunflower. 

This year table service chefs helped, but only when we were there in person,  and quick service gave us a run around.
 After we argued through them avoiding letting us enter to order, they wanted us to go off of those allergen menus - which don't list all of his allergens and are NOT safe when you have multiple allergens because sometimes the dairy safe one is not the same as the egg safe one, etc.  At multiple locations we found incomplete ingredient lists or wrong items shown in the binder. With egg and dairy allergies they wanted us to order breakfast on the app. We refused at beach club marketplace and for a dairy/wheat allergy my breakfast came out with the normal scrambled eggs and a huge wheat bisquit on top. Needless to say I didn't eat as we were already 45 minutes into that experience by then.   The evening before was a huge debacle about them insisting chili containing worchestershire sauce was safe and not wanting to check because it involved someone going to look at the bottle- sure enough their allergen menu was wrong. (took about a half hour to get them to look)


----------



## Obi-J Kenobi

SueM in MN said:


> We‘ve been using DAS since it came out and have never been just ‘let thru’ unless the Standby wait was 15 minutes or less. We’ve always been given a Return Time if the Standby wait was 15-20 minutes or more.


I used DAS in June for my DD.  I can absolutely confirm we had the same experience as SueM in MN (and I'm from WI and MN and WI are known rivlaries, so this a real Kumbaya moment here).  When IASW was a 15 minute wait late in the evening, the CM let us walk through.  However, when IASW was a 30 minute wait earlier in the day, we were given a return time.


----------



## Selket

mistysue said:


> We wrote with specifics.  In the past, we rarely would hear back after turning in a form pre-trip and learned about a decade ago we do mainly table service. He was top 9 plus buckwheat, cottonseed and sunflower,  it has gradually decreased to egg, dairy, peanut, shellfish and sunflower.



Yes that is too challenging to be able to order QS through an app.  A chef needs to get involved in those orders.  This is way more complicated than having 1 or 2 allergies from the major allergens group.   The days when I could contact the chefs directly before we arrived was maybe 2005 or so?  Even though it has gotten better (allergies are more recognized) we still to this day have relied heavily on sit down meals because those are usually better experiences.    It sounds like covid restrictions really messed up their QS ordering for those with complicated allergies to the point of being unusable!


----------



## mistysue

Selket said:


> Yes that is too challenging to be able to order QS through an app.  A chef needs to get involved in those orders.  This is way more complicated than having 1 or 2 allergies from the major allergens group.   The days when I could contact the chefs directly before we arrived was maybe 2005 or so?  Even though it has gotten better (allergies are more recognized) we still to this day have relied heavily on sit down meals because those are usually better experiences.    It sounds like covid restrictions really messed up their QS ordering for those with complicated allergies to the point of being unusable!


I'm hoping as they staff back up it eases the tension.  Even though I was the one getting sub-par service, I felt bad for the cast members trying to help me. The entire thing was caused by a lack of people. I wanted to be able to say "it's ok, cut corners this once" but as you know it's not really an option. At least we got to have poor dining experiences then spend the rest of the day at Disney to make it better.


----------



## SueM in MN

Regarding Mobile Ordering
We we’re at WDW for 3 weeks in June 2021. WDW was encouraging Mobile Ordering, but we never experienced a time where we could not do walk up ordering. It was available, but there was/could be a longer wait depending on how busy it was.

We did not have anyone with us on this trip with allergies, so I can’t speak to that. I just wanted to add that walk up ordering was available at all the quick service places we went to.


----------



## Lilsia

mistysue said:


> We wrote with specifics.
> In the past, we rarely would hear back after turning in a form pre-trip and learned about a decade ago we do mainly table service. He was top 9 plus buckwheat, cottonseed and sunflower,  it has gradually decreased to egg, dairy, peanut, shellfish and sunflower.
> 
> This year table service chefs helped, but only when we were there in person,  and quick service gave us a run around.
> After we argued through them avoiding letting us enter to order, they wanted us to go off of those allergen menus - which don't list all of his allergens and are NOT safe when you have multiple allergens because sometimes the dairy safe one is not the same as the egg safe one, etc.  At multiple locations we found incomplete ingredient lists or wrong items shown in the binder. With egg and dairy allergies they wanted us to order breakfast on the app. We refused at beach club marketplace and for a dairy/wheat allergy my breakfast came out with the normal scrambled eggs and a huge wheat bisquit on top. Needless to say I didn't eat as we were already 45 minutes into that experience by then.   The evening before was a huge debacle about them insisting chili containing worchestershire sauce was safe and not wanting to check because it involved someone going to look at the bottle- sure enough their allergen menu was wrong. (took about a half hour to get them to look)



This really makes me sad to hear of your experience. I have worked in food for over 30 years and I took the initiative to learn, on my own time, about what is in the things we served. I wanted to be prepared to answer questions for those with allergies because no one else that worked there had any clue, including the owner and manager. I even went and made a list for everyone else listing the common allergies in our items. But I worked for the company for 15 years. But I can understand the difficulties in relying on front line employees directing someone with, what can be life threatening, allergies. They just don't get paid enough for that kind of responsibility and it is a lot of information. The turnover in these places is so high, even for management that it would make it almost impossible to train people to be knowledgeable in all aspects of food, what goes into things, etc. The binder is a good idea, but it needs to be up to date and accurate. That is where places fail. I have found that people, in general, lack even the most basic knowledge of food, where it comes from, what is in certain basic dishes, etc. Plus they add way too many unnecessary ingredients to prepared foods making it even harder. I have also found that it is easier to say what you can have, along with what you can not and they can prepare things accordingly. I hope you contacted WDW corporate with your concerns. They need to do better.


----------



## Starwind

Lilsia said:


> This really makes me sad to hear of your experience. I have worked in food for over 30 years and I took the initiative to learn, on my own time, about what is in the things we served. I wanted to be prepared to answer questions for those with allergies because no one else that worked there had any clue, including the owner and manager. I even went and made a list for everyone else listing the common allergies in our items. But I worked for the company for 15 years. But I can understand the difficulties in relying on front line employees directing someone with, what can be life threatening, allergies. They just don't get paid enough for that kind of responsibility and it is a lot of information. The turnover in these places is so high, even for management that it would make it almost impossible to train people to be knowledgeable in all aspects of food, what goes into things, etc. The binder is a good idea, but it needs to be up to date and accurate. That is where places fail. I have found that people, in general, lack even the most basic knowledge of food, where it comes from, what is in certain basic dishes, etc. Plus they add way too many unnecessary ingredients to prepared foods making it even harder. I have also found that it is easier to say what you can have, along with what you can not and they can prepare things accordingly. I hope you contacted WDW corporate with your concerns. They need to do better.



Even more disturbing is that, historically, pre-pandemic, Disney SET the "gold standard" for dealing with food allergies. And was well known for this within the food allergy community. There was always a food allergy-trained chef and/or other cast member (supervisor or manager) available to speak with [granted, you may have to wait to speak with them, I think the longest I had to was 45 minutes at a QS location]. Disney has specific food allergy training. Their ingredient binders were for the most part up to date [but we also learned the importance of STILL speaking with the person preparing the food because sometimes they deviate... like adding butter to what should be dairy-free eggs per the ingredient binder, to make them more moist...!!]. And I have long ago lost count of the number of times I have been brought the actual packaging or a photo of it in order to confirm ingredients are safe. 

It seems now they are inconsistent - some people still report good experiences, while others have quite poor ones, at least at some locations. I get staffings issues, etc. But this is a basic safety issue they need to be getting right, or else make clear across the board "sorry, we can't accommodate right now".


----------



## mistysue

Starwind said:


> Even more disturbing is that, historically, pre-pandemic, Disney SET the "gold standard" for dealing with food allergies. And was well known for this within the food allergy community. There was always a food allergy-trained chef and/or other cast member (supervisor or manager) available to speak with [granted, you may have to wait to speak with them, I think the longest I had to was 45 minutes at a QS location]. Disney has specific food allergy training. Their ingredient binders were for the most part up to date [but we also learned the importance of STILL speaking with the person preparing the food because sometimes they deviate... like adding butter to what should be dairy-free eggs per the ingredient binder, to make them more moist...!!]. And I have long ago lost count of the number of times I have been brought the actual packaging or a photo of it in order to confirm ingredients are safe.
> 
> It seems now they are inconsistent - some people still report good experiences, while others have quite poor ones, at least at some locations. I get staffings issues, etc. But this is a basic safety issue they need to be getting right, or else make clear across the board "sorry, we can't accommodate right now".


The super "fun" one from May was that specifically at the Polynesian, the QS opened 30 minutes before table service- but they wanted the chef from table service to do allergy orders... so we couldn't start waiting for a chef until 7:30,  but parks opened at 8. 

We could order, hoping they wouldn't accidentally do anything that wasn't ok on a "non-allergy order", but it could ONLY be done through the app so not even able to ask questions.  If we didn't want to place an allergy order, they wouldn't let us order in person.  But if it was an allergy order, have to wait for the chef.  But then we have too many allergies to get breakfast in the park,  so it was a choice between 1)be an hour or so late for park opening while we wait, or 2) eat table service and be an hour or so late for park opening. 

For reference- we became DVC owners specifically because of how great Captain Cook's was with allergy breakfast before COVID times. Riviera is now our place that was amazing, but I'm hoping that Poly stay was a fluke.


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

First, let me say that I 100% agree with you. There are a lot of selfish, seemingly unethical people out there- and yes, they should be ashamed. They make -well, everything!- harder for everyone else… and they also give people with “invisible needs” a very, very bad name. One of my daughters has a need that’s extremely visible (as in- bandaged head to toe kind of visible), but 2 other of my children have physical disabilities that are hard, if not impossible, to spot. I also have an medical need that isn’t visible. I have a wheelchair now (which I only use outside of my house for trips- including trips to the grocery store), but I can still stand/walk which does make it look like I could be an imposter… I assure you I am not (& I know you’re not accusing us here) 


markpenske said:


> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.


Just a quick note here- if you ever see an older teenage boy running from the handicapped parking spot, that would be my son… and he just dropped me (or my daughter) off. The poor guy has gotten many looks from other people- especially the time I thought I could walk the queue into Small World (I seriously don‘t know what I was thinking!!)… anyway, I could hardly walk up the ramp to get out, and so I asked him to run and grab my wheelchair where we’d left it (by the entrance), and bring it to me at the exit. He asked if he could drive it instead of pushing it- and at that point I didn’t care. He was helping me and I wanted it fast!! He absolutely looked like he was joy-riding (except that he was driving very carefully)… & it made me giggle. But that experience has definitely made me think twice before just assuming someone is doing something wrong when they are obviously very able-bodied.


----------



## SueM in MN

Obi-J Kenobi said:


> I used DAS in June for my DD.  I can absolutely confirm we had the same experience as SueM in MN (and I'm from WI and MN and WI are known rivlaries, so this a real Kumbaya moment here).  When IASW was a 15 minute wait late in the evening, the CM let us walk through.  However, when IASW was a 30 minute wait earlier in the day, we were given a return time.


Madison is my home town and I am a proud University of Wisconsin - Madison alumni. Badgers all the way!


----------



## ttintagel

mistysue said:


> I'm hoping as they staff back up it eases the tension.



Maybe I’m just a pessimist, but I’ll believe they’re actually going to staff back up when I see it with my own eyes, and not a moment before. Their staffing levels were inadequate for their attendance levels before the pandemic; now that they’ve slashed their payroll I don’t see them voluntarily increasing it anytime soon.


----------



## Groot

SueM in MN said:


> If you saw this cutie in a wheelchair, would you think it was a rented wheelchair to ‘cheat’?
> What if she was sitting on a bench, with the wheelchair parked next to her?
> View attachment 597674
> 
> This is my youngest DD a long time ago in EPCOT by Norway. When she was this age, posed this way in her wheelchair, I actually heard someone say to her companion (loud enough for me to hear) that ”it’s a shame they let people rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in line.” Based on her comments, it was because my daughter was crossing her leg and swinging the top leg.
> She and I were sitting on a bench in Germany when I heard 2 guys behind me make the same comments. Apparently, they believed if someone can get out of their wheelchair, they must not be disabled (she didn’t even get out by herself, I lifted her and arranged her leg for her since she can’t cross it herself).
> 
> View attachment 597676
> 
> What about this picture? Does she look disabled? Or pretending to be disabled?
> This picture was taken a few years ago when she was just driving around near an overlook at Kali River Rapids while we waited for her dad and friend to come thru on their raft.
> Another person waiting in the area commented to their companion “if people are going to rent a wheelchair to skip lines they shouldn’t try so hard to look disabled.” Apparently, my daughter was doing too good of a job of being disabled.
> 
> And, there was a time when one of the people assigned to the same table as my family spent most of the meal complaining about how people using wheelchairs were ruining the parks by getting front of line access. That was one uncomfortable meal.
> There are quite a few people who think they can tell by looking whether someone is ‘really disabled‘ or not. If they fail so miserably with someone in a wheelchair, how do they think they can do it for other disabilities without physical signs?



I’ve seen this myself, who’s been disabled MY WHOLE LIFE. I’ve heard comments made to my mom about “Oh, your kid was walking 5 minutes ago, why is she sitting in a wheelchair now?” Or “Why is she holding her arm like that?” and my personal favorite “Don’t let the kid mock people with a limp.” When NONE OF THOSE THINGS I have any CONTROL OVER.

1. I use a wheelchair for distance/endurance issues. ANYTHING over a 1/4 mile or standing for a long period is a strict no go for me as my one leg would just give out and would make me a FALL RISK. 

2. My arm is restricted from moving like normal and the position it’s in is the most comfortable for it.

3. Well, it’s a miracle that I can EVEN WALK, even if it AIN’T FAR, so however I can do it, is the way that I’ll do it.


----------



## mamabunny

Obi-J Kenobi said:


> I used DAS in June for my DD.  I can absolutely confirm we had the same experience as SueM in MN (and I'm from WI and MN and WI are known rivlaries, so this a real Kumbaya moment here).  When IASW was a 15 minute wait late in the evening, the CM let us walk through.  However, when IASW was a 30 minute wait earlier in the day, we were given a return time.



❤ Walt Disney World... bringing folks together for 50 happy years!


----------



## Obi-J Kenobi

SueM in MN said:


> Madison is my home town and I am a proud University of Wisconsin - Madison alumni. Badgers all the way!


My apologies.  You are a transplant.  Namaste, my fellow Badger loving Sister!


----------



## Obi-J Kenobi

mamabunny said:


> ❤ Walt Disney World... bringing folks together for 50 happy years!


It truly is a miracle.  Sue of MN and I should, together, sell movie rights to a movie company.  Wonder if Disney knows of a movie company that would be interested?


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## mistysue

Groot said:


> 1. I use a wheelchair for distance/endurance issues. ANYTHING over a 1/4 mile or standing for a long period is a strict no go for me as my one leg would just give out and would make me a FALL RISK.


My son has this same sort of issue with a longer range, and honestly the most stressful part about it is people getting mad that he's faking when he's pushed to his limits. In every day life, it doesn't come up because we aren't that active, but you get about 3 miles into a day and his legs just can't work. (and we have older kids, so it's not just little kid exhaustion, when he was a baby we were told he would never walk because of how severe his hypotonia was)



ttintagel said:


> Maybe I’m just a pessimist, but I’ll believe they’re actually going to staff back up when I see it with my own eyes, and not a moment before. Their staffing levels were inadequate for their attendance levels before the pandemic; now that they’ve slashed their payroll I don’t see them voluntarily increasing it anytime soon.


I'm afraid of it not really happening too, but I have to hold onto the hope. COVID stole every local option we had because everyone changed menus to be less allergy friendly and I am a dining out type person.


----------



## pasta

I was there the end of July, and getting a return time for DAS was longer than I have ever seen it before.  Period! That being said, it could be the lack of FP and early entrance for resort guests, but I can’t definitively say it was abuse. When I originally received my DAS, I was told  to utilize other park strategies. They clearly stated I should use all other options to avoid waiting in line.  In the past, getting there early, and utilizing FP, I used DAS about 2 times a day, and there was never a wait to get a return time. Now that previous strategies are eliminated for the time being, more people are getting DAS return times at once. Maybe it’s because there are less strategies to reduce wait times on our own??Maybe it’s abuse?? Idk This last trip inJuly, I rope dropped, and I still used DAS about two times a day.  Not having the FP reduced attractions. To me, DAS worked because it’s not meant to get you on more attractions than other people, but to wait like everyone else but in an alternative setting.  Disney was a hot mess, and did nothing to alleviate waiting in lines for guests. Lack of FP, no shows to eat up crowds, or early entrance for resort guests increased lines immensely by 1000. They possibly died down the last hour. When people have other options again to reduce wait times on attractions, I think, if there is abuse happening, it will decline.

Also, please do not discuss how you received your DAS pass in detail.  Unfortunately, there are dishonest people that read these posts specifically looking for “wording “ to receive a DAS pass.


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## Mamabun

pasta said:


> I was there the end of July, and getting a return time for DAS was longer than I have ever seen it before.



We just returned too, and while getting return times did take an extra long time, from what I saw (your experience certainly could have been different), it wasn’t because there was an extra lot of people using DAS.  It was because of 1) reduced staff, often a single person at the FP entrance letting in DAS returns, giving out times, etc. 2) answering questions, so many people wanting to know how to use FP and simply not believing it wasn’t in use and 3) setting up or renewing DAS - this takes a while and I was really surprised to see, for example, a family getting DAS for the first rime ever at Splash Mountain - my personal opinion you should have to do that at guest services because it really slows down everything else at the ride entrance.

I really don’t know if there were significantly more DAS users, or abuse happening - I tend  to give everyone the benefit of doubt toward invisible disability - but the wonderful DAS CM’s were definitely overworked, and I was sorry to see that.


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## magicalfoursome

I have been to WDW many times and I did use DAS for the first time on our last trip in November 2019. I was diagnosed with a chronic illness earlier that year and DAS made the trip safer for me. I did not at all mind waiting my turn, it was just that I was safer not waiting in line. To look at me you would never know there is anything wrong. Many of us have invisible illnesses. It makes me sad though that people would abuse the DAS system. Those people have no idea what it’s like to live with a chronic illness and/or disability.


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## DisneyOma

Mamabun said:


> We just returned too, and while getting return times did take an extra long time, from what I saw (your experience certainly could have been different), it wasn’t because there was an extra lot of people using DAS.  It was because of 1) reduced staff, often a single person at the FP entrance letting in DAS returns, giving out times, etc. 2) answering questions, so many people wanting to know how to use FP and simply not believing it wasn’t in use and 3) setting up or renewing DAS - this takes a while and I was really surprised to see, for example, a family getting DAS for the first rime ever at Splash Mountain - my personal opinion you should have to do that at guest services because it really slows down everything else at the ride entrance.
> 
> I really don’t know if there were significantly more DAS users, or abuse happening - I tend  to give everyone the benefit of doubt toward invisible disability - but the wonderful DAS CM’s were definitely overworked, and I was sorry to see that.



They have the ability to set up DAS at an attraction? That's not what I've seen or read.


----------



## pasta

Mamabun said:


> We just returned too, and while getting return times did take an extra long time, from what I saw (your experience certainly could have been different), it wasn’t because there was an extra lot of people using DAS.  It was because of 1) reduced staff, often a single person at the FP entrance letting in DAS returns, giving out times, etc. 2) answering questions, so many people wanting to know how to use FP and simply not believing it wasn’t in use and 3) setting up or renewing DAS - this takes a while and I was really surprised to see, for example, a family getting DAS for the first rime ever at Splash Mountain - my personal opinion you should have to do that at guest services because it really slows down everything else at the ride entrance.
> 
> I really don’t know if there were significantly more DAS users, or abuse happening - I tend  to give everyone the benefit of doubt toward invisible disability - but the wonderful DAS CM’s were definitely overworked, and I was sorry to see that.


Good observations, but I don’t believe you can set up an initial DAS pass at an attraction. 
 I also do not like to judge people,  but whatever the reasons, there were more people getting returns than usual.


----------



## pasta

DisneyOma said:


> They have the ability to set up DAS at an attraction? That's not what I've seen or read.


I do not believe you can get DAS set up at attractions.  I believe it has to be done at guest service.


----------



## Mamabun

pasta said:


> I agree with your observations also.   If you read my entire post, you would see I clearly stated it could of been abuse.  I also do not like to judge people,  but whatever the reasons, there were more people getting returns than usual.


Sorry, didn’t mean to imply anything about your observations or experience.  Just agreeing that waits for obtaining DAS return times were longer - I thought that was a good thing you pointed out. And I just wanted to add, surprisingly for me, it wasn’t because of lots other people getting return times - it was the ‘other’ things.  Also, just a heads for folks like us who try to not let the person with disability see or think about the ride too much until you’re ready and able to ride, that obtaining the return time may need more time than previously.


----------



## pasta

Mamabun said:


> Sorry, didn’t mean to imply anything about your observations or experience.  Just agreeing that waits for obtaining DAS return times were longer - I thought that was a good thing you pointed out. And I just wanted to add, surprisingly for me, it wasn’t because of lots other people getting return times - it was the ‘other’ things.  Also, just a heads for folks like us who try to not let the person with disability see or think about the ride too much until you’re ready and able to ride, that obtaining the return time may need more time than previously.


I didn’t like the way my response sounded, and I edited my original post. No apology necessary, but thank you 

Yes, lots of variables at play.  Hopefully the new system will work, and people that can, will do returns on their phone.


----------



## SueM in MN

Lilsia said:


> That has never been my experience. They take 10 minutes off of the wait time and tell you to come back then. So you don't go right through if the wait is 30 minutes, you come back in 20 and get in the FP line. And if the wait is under 15 minutes, then you are able to just go into the regular line. I don't know where you are getting this information from.


What you have written about going directly into the line if the wait is 15 minutes or less is now written in the Disney website FAQs. Screenshot showing the info


----------



## Evita_W

SueM in MN said:


> What you have written about going directly into the line if the wait is 15 minutes or less is now written in the Disney website FAQs. Screenshot showing the info
> 
> View attachment 598997


Right and sometimes, depending on the exact set of circumstances, they do the same when the standby is longer, you ahold never expect this, but you should always be prepared for this to happen, as it has caught us unaware a couple of times and we had to get the rest of our party over to the attraction. Now unless we know it is a longer line (usually over 30 minutes), our entire party goes to get the return time as a result


----------



## Claudia1

OurBigTrip said:


> The DAS, in the US at least, doesn't provide that immediate access...the DAS holder must get a return time that is equal to the standby wait time minus 10 minutes.   After waiting, they come back and enter the FP line.  While it still provides an advantage, it doesn't provide nearly the incentive for the non-disabled to abuse it as they did the GAC.  It also prevents valid users from overusing it to the extent that ride operations for all guests are negatively impacted.
> **edited to correct "was" to "wasn't"





MS_Warrior said:


> Except the DAS doesn’t work like a fast pass. With the DAS you get a return time that’s equivalent to the standby wait time. It only gives the DAS holder an alternative place to wait.



Our recent experience has been that the wait times for DAS is nearly always equal to the standby time or even more.  (Standby lines are sometimes inflated.)  I talked to a DAS CM a couple of weeks ago and said that I've noticed the return times are closer to standby lines and she stiffened up a bit, as if expecting me to be upset.   I simple added that I understand it's not go-to-the-head-of-the-line but just to avoid any trauma or issues from waiting in line.   She then relaxed and said, "yes, everyone is still waiting the same amount of time but DAS just lets you wait in a different area".

I'm fine with that and I think that those of us who aren't trying to trick the system are OK with it, too.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Claudia1 said:


> I'm fine with that and I think that those of us who aren't trying to trick the system are OK with it, too.



I agree.


----------



## DisneyByMarriage

Just my two cents, from someone battling with inquiring about DAS for our next trip.  I have three kids.  One has a clinical diagnosis which he takes expensive medicine for.  There are cheaper generics, but of course they aren’t easy for a child to take.  So let’s say we get DAS, and we have him take the medicine right before we go to the park.  The max amount of time the medicine works is 5 hours.  Some days he gets sick from the medicine (sleep, food, heat all affect it). After that, it’s a crap shoot.  He may be the model citizen or he may touch everyone he sees.  We may or may not be approved for it - but it would make a huge difference in our day.  We still wouldn’t stay at the park the entire day, and I would venture to say MOST people who have a need for a DAS are not rope drop to wishes people.  So it’s not fair to say that “everyone with a DAS is making standby lines longer” - because in most cases the reason for needing the DAS itself probably means there are some rides you won’t even attempt.  You can never tell what’s going on, and what does “normal” look like these days?


----------



## CBMom01

It’s funny. I’m worried about the perception of abuse this trip because of the announcements. Used to be DS and I. Now with a bigger family but more need - 2 kids on the spectrum, one adult with cognitive challenges, and one with a not immediately obvious physical disability. I worry people will see 6 healthy looking people and assume we’re *those* people.


Or worse, they assume we’re abusing and think, “hell, i should do that too!”


----------



## CBMom01

DisneyByMarriage said:


> Just my two cents, from someone battling with inquiring about DAS for our next trip.  I have three kids.  One has a clinical diagnosis which he takes expensive medicine for.  There are cheaper generics, but of course they aren’t easy for a child to take.  So let’s say we get DAS, and we have him take the medicine right before we go to the park.  The max amount of time the medicine works is 5 hours.  Some days he gets sick from the medicine (sleep, food, heat all affect it). After that, it’s a crap shoot.  He may be the model citizen or he may touch everyone he sees.  We may or may not be approved for it - but it would make a huge difference in our day.  We still wouldn’t stay at the park the entire day, and I would venture to say MOST people who have a need for a DAS are not rope drop to wishes people.  So it’s not fair to say that “everyone with a DAS is making standby lines longer” - because in most cases the reason for needing the DAS itself probably means there are some rides you won’t even attempt.  You can never tell what’s going on, and what does “normal” look like these days?


thats a great point.  We don’t clog up the system because we don't do tons of rides in a day. And many of the super popular thrill rides are off the table for us anyway


----------



## mamabunny

DisneyByMarriage said:


> ...and what does “normal” look like these days?



At my house, "normal" looks like a setting on the washing machine, and nothing more...


----------



## Hoodie

Just back and it seems like they are tightening the DAS process. Saw someone with a scooter get denied at Hollywood Studios.  Interestingly, the CM told the group that they would not be eligible at DHS, AK, or Epcot as all lines are capable of handling a scooter, but to ask at MK as those lines were older and not all accessible. We were also told they are no longer overriding the 6 person limit. In the past I think Disney was more lax but with the implementation of Genie and paid FP, I think we are going to see DAS issuance more mirror Universal where it is a bit more difficult to get.  That said, I love the proposed changes to DAS with pre-screening and most importantly the ability to book your return times from your phone. I'd just be prepared for a more thorough discussion.


----------



## Lilsia

Hoodie said:


> Just back and it seems like they are tightening the DAS process. Saw someone with a scooter get denied at Hollywood Studios.  Interestingly, the CM told the group that they would not be eligible at DHS, AK, or Epcot as all lines are capable of handling a scooter, but to ask at MK as those lines were older and not all accessible. We were also told they are no longer overriding the 6 person limit. In the past I think Disney was more lax but with the implementation of Genie and paid FP, I think we are going to see DAS issuance more mirror Universal where it is a bit more difficult to get.  That said, I love the proposed changes to DAS with pre-screening and most importantly the ability to book your return times from your phone. I'd just be prepared for a more thorough discussion.



But if the person gets a DAS at MK, it is good for all of the parks, so I don't understand that. Are they able to make it park specific and don't they already have a work around at MK for those rides that the queue is not accessible, plus having a DAS does not help with getting a chair through the line. This does not make any sense.


----------



## SueM in MN

Lilsia said:


> But if the person gets a DAS at MK, it is good for all of the parks, so I don't understand that. Are they able to make it park specific and don't they already have a work around at MK for those rides that the queue is not accessible, plus having a DAS does not help with getting a chair through the line. This does not make any sense.


Exactly.
MK does have work around for all the attractions where the regular line is not accessible. Even if it was able to be made park specific, issuing it to only be active at MK would still allow it to be used at other MK attractions that are Mainstream accessible - unless they will also have a way to make it only ‘valid’ at certain attractions at MK.

This is what the Disney website FAQs says about the new process (my bold)

”Is DAS issued at one Disney theme park valid at other Disney theme parks?
DAS is *valid throughout the Resort at which it was issued*. DAS issued at Walt Disney World Resort is not, for example, valid at the Disneyland Resort, and vice versa.”


----------



## lanejudy

Hoodie said:


> the CM told the group that they would not be eligible at DHS, AK, or Epcot as all lines are capable of handling a scooter, but to ask at MK as those lines were older and not all accessible


Unfortunately, I think this sounds like a case of a poorly-trained CM.  Or partially-trained.  Right answer regarding DHS, AK and Epcot but apparently confused about MK.  Maybe they were thinking of the "wheelchair return times" that are used at some MK attractions but confused it with DAS return times.  Hopefully a CM at MK will clarify for them.  (And hopefully that DHS CM will get more training.)


----------



## ttintagel

Right - if there is a different entrance for wheelchairs at an attraction, you’re not supposed to need DAS to use it.


----------



## Groot

Hoodie said:


> Just back and it seems like they are tightening the DAS process. Saw someone with a scooter get denied at Hollywood Studios.  Interestingly, the CM told the group that they would not be eligible at DHS, AK, or Epcot as all lines are capable of handling a scooter, but to ask at MK as those lines were older and not all accessible. We were also told they are no longer overriding the 6 person limit. In the past I think Disney was more lax but with the implementation of Genie and paid FP, I think we are going to see DAS issuance more mirror Universal where it is a bit more difficult to get.  That said, I love the proposed changes to DAS with pre-screening and most importantly the ability to book your return times from your phone. I'd just be prepared for a more thorough discussion.



One time I went to Kilamanjaro Safaris, there was 5 of us, including me in the scooter, so we went to the separate loading area halfway through. Behind us though was a *PARTY OF 20 PEOPLE, ALL ACCOMPANYING 1 PERSON IN A SCOOTER!*

The person in charge of loading the handicap platform was going to let me and my family through, but someone in the afforementioned group through a fit as I was getting my cane out of the scooter basket in order to get up. They screamed “FAKER!”, “YOU DON’T NEED THAT SCOOTER!”, and “HOW BOUT YOU WALK NORMAL FOR A CHANGE!”. The CM saw that they were getting ready to fight and promptly called for security to escort them out of the park.


----------



## iloveftwilderness

The FASTPASS lane is not just used by DAS. It is also used by Club 33 members and people getting passes due to rides breaking down, etc.  Others just need to mind their business. For the ones using DAS, not all disabilities are seen.  Be kind and be thankful you don't need a DAS pass.


----------



## SueM in MN

iloveftwilderness said:


> The FASTPASS lane is not just used by DAS. It is also used by Club 33 members and people getting passes due to rides breaking down, etc.  Others just need to mind their business. For the ones using DAS, not all disabilities are seen.  Be kind and be thankful you don't need a DAS pass.


Yes… people assume it’s all DAS users right now, but it’s not.
I was at WDW for 3 weeks in June 2021. Several attractions had long lines at the Fastpass entrance and as I got close to the area while waiting in the Standby line, I could hear a fair number of discussions. Some were people asking about or coming back for Rider Swap. Some didn’t know Fastpass was not being used and were asking how to get a Fastpass.
On my trips to Pandora in AK, I saw large groups of people at Flights of Passage. I later learned they were doing trials involving the Fastpass lines (maybe testing Genie somehow).


----------



## Evita_W

Groot said:


> One time I went to Kilamanjaro Safaris, there was 5 of us, including me in the scooter, so we went to the separate loading area halfway through. Behind us though was a *PARTY OF 20 PEOPLE, ALL ACCOMPANYING 1 PERSON IN A SCOOTER!*
> 
> The person in charge of loading the handicap platform was going to let me and my family through, but someone in the afforementioned group through a fit as I was getting my cane out of the scooter basket in order to get up. They screamed “FAKER!”, “YOU DON’T NEED THAT SCOOTER!”, and “HOW BOUT YOU WALK NORMAL FOR A CHANGE!”. The CM saw that they were getting ready to fight and promptly called for security to escort them out of the park.


While that attraction could handle that number accompanying a single scooter, that is terrible, glad the CM was on top of it though. Sometimes, if they know it will take security a moment they will let them ride and have security waiting for them when they exit as well. Sometimes, its easier to keep things peaceful that way.


----------



## StitchesGr8Fan

When we were there at the end of July I got my first DAS. I used it twice and both times I had to wait for a return time from people asking how to get a Fastpass. I think that is part of why there is a wait to get return times.


----------



## Selket

Groot said:


> One time I went to Kilamanjaro Safaris, there was 5 of us, including me in the scooter, so we went to the separate loading area halfway through. Behind us though was a *PARTY OF 20 PEOPLE, ALL ACCOMPANYING 1 PERSON IN A SCOOTER!*



Out of curiosity, is there any other way to bring a scooter into that attraction and be put on the "regular" safari jeep vs. the modified one?   I'm thinking not but I bring the scooter cause the line itself is long in distance (I never remember not having a FP for it when I rode it so I probably always went in with a FP).  I can't remember that attraction line too well except that I always feel like I'm taking up a space compared to other attractions where the ECV is not pulled off to go with those who cannot leave their chair (like Flight of Passage - which again I've only ever rode with a FP but I give them the ECV and go into the "scanning" room where they match your avatar since I can stand for awhile and walk a bit.  Fortunately never got stuck in there long).   

Also wow for the 20 people!   I can't imagine navigating a park with 20 people - especially rude ones!


----------



## Evita_W

Selket said:


> Out of curiosity, is there any other way to bring a scooter into that attraction and be put on the "regular" safari jeep vs. the modified one?   I'm thinking not but I bring the scooter cause the line itself is long in distance (I never remember not having a FP for it when I rode it so I probably always went in with a FP).  I can't remember that attraction line too well except that I always feel like I'm taking up a space compared to other attractions where the ECV is not pulled off to go with those who cannot leave their chair (like Flight of Passage - which again I've only ever rode with a FP but I give them the ECV and go into the "scanning" room where they match your avatar since I can stand for awhile and walk a bit.  Fortunately never got stuck in there long).
> 
> Also wow for the 20 people!   I can't imagine navigating a park with 20 people - especially rude ones!


No, on the safari, you have to go to the modified vehicle.


----------



## DisSurfer878

Hoodie said:


> Just back and it seems like they are tightening the DAS process. Saw someone with a scooter get denied at Hollywood Studios.  Interestingly, the CM told the group that they would not be eligible at DHS, AK, or Epcot as all lines are capable of handling a scooter, but to ask at MK as those lines were older and not all accessible. We were also told they are no longer overriding the 6 person limit. In the past I think Disney was more lax but with the implementation of Genie and paid FP, I think we are going to see DAS issuance more mirror Universal where it is a bit more difficult to get.  That said, I love the proposed changes to DAS with pre-screening and most importantly the ability to book your return times from your phone. I'd just be prepared for a more thorough discussion.


I do feel bad for people with larger families. We have friends who had a standard family of four (mom, dad, 2 kids) who unexpectedly adopted their sister's 4 children when tragedy stuck. It's frustrating that people who have a disabled party member would have to pick and choose between their kids/family members.


----------



## DisneyOma

DisSurfer878 said:


> I do feel bad for people with larger families. We have friends who had a standard family of four (mom, dad, 2 kids) who unexpectedly adopted their sister's 4 children when tragedy stuck. It's frustrating that people who have a disabled party member would have to pick and choose between their kids/family members.



They have accommodated a family of 8 with only two adults in the past.  But a party of 20 would rarely be in the same ride vehicle, more like taking up 5-10 of them, so there's no real "together" except in the queue.  What people can do is have the party members not using DAS get in the queue, and then the DAS party would be able to keep in contact and coordinate the return so that they could meetup at the front. If the SB queue is moving faster than the allotted time on the DAS, the family could step aside and wait for the rest if it was that important for them to ride together.


----------



## olwyngdh

TwoMisfits said:


> Real docs won't forge the records, and your diagnosis (if it's just healthy pregnancy in the records) would be obvious.



Ummmm... https://www.ibtimes.com/florida-doctor-sells-50-mask-exemption-letters-parents-gets-fired-3281675


----------



## TwoMisfits

olwyngdh said:


> Ummmm... https://www.ibtimes.com/florida-doctor-sells-50-mask-exemption-letters-parents-gets-fired-3281675



Notice how quickly he was caught, fired, and shut down...


----------



## katmigordon

Some of us have medical issues we find a little more... embarrassing than others.  I don't really want to have to walk around telling strangers that I have issues with controlling my elimination systems.  (Crohn's, and issues with frequent urination due to diabetes.)  Combine that with mobility issues and getting in lines can be a problem.  (ECVs don't exactly turn on a dime and getting out of line at a moment's notice is impossible most of the time... and that's on top of the issue of having to start all over again when you come back to the line.)

But if it would help keep the system clean, and give me access to the help I need - I would be willing to do it.



MS_Warrior said:


> It wouldn’t bother me in the least to have to state my disability.


----------



## SueM in MN

Selket said:


> Out of curiosity, is there any other way to bring a scooter into that attraction and be put on the "regular" safari jeep vs. the modified one?   I'm thinking not but I bring the scooter cause the line itself is long in distance (I never remember not having a FP for it when I rode it so I probably always went in with a FP).  I can't remember that attraction line too well except that I always feel like I'm taking up a space compared to other attractions where the ECV is not pulled off to go with those who cannot leave their chair (like Flight of Passage - which again I've only ever rode with a FP but I give them the ECV and go into the "scanning" room where they match your avatar since I can stand for awhile and walk a bit.  Fortunately never got stuck in there long).
> 
> Also wow for the 20 people!   I can't imagine navigating a park with 20 people - especially rude ones!





Selket said:


> Out of curiosity, is there any other way to bring a scooter into that attraction and be put on the "regular" safari jeep vs. the modified one?   I'm thinking not but I bring the scooter cause the line itself is long in distance (I never remember not having a FP for it when I rode it so I probably always went in with a FP).  I can't remember that attraction line too well except that I always feel like I'm taking up a space compared to other attractions where the ECV is not pulled off to go with those who cannot leave their chair (like Flight of Passage - which again I've only ever rode with a FP but I give them the ECV and go into the "scanning" room where they match your avatar since I can stand for awhile and walk a bit.  Fortunately never got stuck in there long).
> 
> Also wow for the 20 people!   I can't imagine navigating a park with 20 people - especially rude ones!


The modification in the ride trams is that the first row is equipped with a space for a wheelchair to be tied down.
The boarding area for guests using mobility devices has a permanent ramp with a folding part to load a wheelchair into that wheelchair accessible spot. It also has space for mobility devices to be parked and trams that load there also unload in the same place so guests have their mobility device waiting for them when they get off.

A modified tram is sometimes used at the ‘regular’ boarding area if the mobility area is too full to park any more mobility devices. Guests boarding at ‘regular’ area get on there and get off in another area. Neither of those areas has space for mobility devices to park.


TwoMisfits said:


> Notice how quickly he was caught, fired, and shut down...


‘Real doctors‘ have given notes for uncomplicated pregnancies - people have posted about it on the internet in the past as a ‘hack’ to make their ‘baby moon’ the best.


----------



## Lumpy1106

iloveftwilderness said:


> The FASTPASS lane is not just used by DAS. It is also used by Club 33 members and people getting passes due to rides breaking down, etc.  Others just need to mind their business. For the ones using DAS, not all disabilities are seen.  Be kind and be thankful you don't need a DAS pass.


If only these people, all with legitimate reasons to be there, were in the FP line then there wouldn't be a problem.  What we witnessed 1st week of August '21 was for every party of 2-4 in the regular line there were DOZENS of people coming by in the FP line.  That's a CRAZY amount of abuse of the system.  I mean, just take a quick glance around the park.  What % of people do you see who are in need of a DAS?  I would be shocked if that % was even 5% - it's much lower than that.  At 5% that would mean for every 10 people in the standby line there would be 2 in the DAS/FP line.  Nobody would even notice that, or at the very least you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would object to that.  The # is completely flipped though.  The DAS abuse is easily doubling the length of the SSD and PP standby lines in particular.  That benefits no one but the cheaters.  Disney needs to get a handle on this before they start adding Genie/LL people to the FP line too.


----------



## Disneyfan754321

Lilsia said:


> Another issue is people, like me, who have an ongoing medical issue that is not needed to be treated by a doctor but it affects my life. I don't want to, nor should I have to, pay to go to the doctor every year for a statement just to get the DAS. Not only does that put a financial burden on me, but it wastes the doctor's time to just see to write a note for WDW.


 Our doctor doesnt write the note, the nurse or the social worker  does on the doctor's behalf.  Now days it's pretty easy to get a  doctor note but yes it would stop most of the  fakers.   Our note was so generic .. I think it said  our sons name  can not stand in a line que  or be exposed to heat  for lengthy amounts due to a permanent disability.

That is what six flags asks for, if it says the disability they will hand it back and wont take it.  Then they gave me that day with a temporary das pass so I could get it fixed.  Yes I realize that most people go for more than one day... the simple fact of having the note is a deterrent for some.


----------



## lanejudy

Lumpy1106 said:


> That's a CRAZY amount of abuse of the system.



Rider Swap is another big use of the FP queues, and I suspect that is much greater percentage of those in that queue moreso than DAS.


----------



## MS_Warrior

katmigordon said:


> Some of us have medical issues we find a little more... embarrassing than others.  I don't really want to have to walk around telling strangers that I have issues with controlling my elimination systems.  (Crohn's, and issues with frequent urination due to diabetes.)  Combine that with mobility issues and getting in lines can be a problem.  (ECVs don't exactly turn on a dime and getting out of line at a moment's notice is impossible most of the time... and that's on top of the issue of having to start all over again when you come back to the line.)
> 
> But if it would help keep the system clean, and give me access to the help I need - I would be willing to do it.



I do understand that. I have MS which can cause bathroom issues, also. It might be a little better now that you can do it online before going to the park and not standing in front of other people waiting in line….


----------



## iloveftwilderness

Disneyfan754321 said:


> Our doctor doesnt write the note, the nurse or the social worker  does on the doctor's behalf.  Now days it's pretty easy to get a  doctor note but yes it would stop most of the  fakers.   Our note was so generic .. I think it said  our sons name  can not stand in a line que  or be exposed to heat  for lengthy amounts due to a permanent disability.
> 
> That is what six flags asks for, if it says the disability they will hand it back and wont take it.  Then they gave me that day with a temporary das pass so I could get it fixed.  Yes I realize that most people go for more than one day... the simple fact of having the note is a deterrent for some.



You don't have to have a doctor's note.  You just tell that cast member why you are not able to wait in the regular line.  I wrote it down, so I didn't have to verbalize it and embarrass my child.  Depending on your situation, they will determine if DAS is for your family.  It was a max party of 6 people the last I checked.


----------



## DisneyOma

Lumpy1106 said:


> If only these people, all with legitimate reasons to be there, were in the FP line then there wouldn't be a problem.  What we witnessed 1st week of August '21 was for every party of 2-4 in the regular line there were DOZENS of people coming by in the FP line.  That's a CRAZY amount of abuse of the system.  I mean, just take a quick glance around the park.  What % of people do you see who are in need of a DAS?  I would be shocked if that % was even 5% - it's much lower than that.  At 5% that would mean for every 10 people in the standby line there would be 2 in the DAS/FP line.  Nobody would even notice that, or at the very least you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would object to that.  The # is completely flipped though.  The DAS abuse is easily doubling the length of the SSD and PP standby lines in particular.  That benefits no one but the cheaters.  Disney needs to get a handle on this before they start adding Genie/LL people to the FP line too.



When we were there last week, the old FP queues were never as busy or full as the SB queues, huh.  Maybe 2-3 groups ahead of us, tops. Many times we were the only ones in the queue.  Also, the 10:2 ratio in your example is 16.7%, not 5%. 5% would be 1 person in the DAS queue and 19 people in the SB queue.


----------



## Lumpy1106

DisneyOma said:


> When we were there last week, the old FP queues were never as busy or full as the SB queues, huh.  Maybe 2-3 groups ahead of us, tops. Many times we were the only ones in the queue.  Also, the 10:2 ratio in your example is 16.7%, not 5%. 5% would be 1 person in the DAS queue and 19 people in the SB queue.


The FP queue would not be as full because they are letting the FP queue straight onto the ride as much as possible, whereas the people in the SB line are held to accommodate the FP line.  You are correct, the math in my example was bad, but your corrected math only goes to further prove my point - thanks!


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

Selket said:


> Out of curiosity, is there any other way to bring a scooter into that attraction and be put on the "regular" safari jeep vs. the modified one?   I'm thinking not but I bring the scooter cause the line itself is long in distance
> …


Yes- in fact, the first time I took my electric wheelchair to KS, I was told to park with the strollers & walk the remainder of the queue… which I reluctantly did. 


Evita_W said:


> No, on the safari, you have to go to the modified vehicle.


Not necessarily. 


SueM in MN said:


> The boarding area for guests using mobility devices has a permanent ramp with a folding part to load a wheelchair into that wheelchair accessible spot. It also has space for mobility devices to be parked and trams that load there also unload in the same place so guests have their mobility device waiting for them when they get off.


The next time, I asked to stay in my chair until we reached the jeeps. When I got to the WC loading area, there was a “normal” jeep loading passengers that had gotten off of their scooters, but it was full, so I waited for the next one… and a modified jeep pulled up. It was the first time I had ever even seen one!! I was getting ready to get out of my WC, when the CM asked if I’d like to stay in my chair. Since no one else was waiting for it, I said yes- & I’m soooo glad I did! Not only did I get to be in the comfort of my own chair, but the modified jeep doesn’t stop for the “rumbling” bridge (which always causes me pain). It was wonderful!!!! I’ve ridden KS several times since, and I always wait for a modified jeep  now _(but you don’t have to!)_


----------



## SueM in MN

HappyDisneyWife said:


> Yes- in fact, the first time I took my electric wheelchair to KS, I was told to park with the strollers & walk the remainder of the queue… which I reluctantly did.
> 
> Not necessarily.
> 
> The next time, I asked to stay in my chair until we reached the jeeps. When I got to the WC loading area, there was a “normal” jeep loading passengers that had gotten off of their scooters, but it was full, so I waited for the next one… and a modified jeep pulled up. It was the first time I had ever even seen one!! I was getting ready to get out of my WC, when the CM asked if I’d like to stay in my chair. Since no one else was waiting for it, I said yes- & I’m soooo glad I did! Not only did I get to be in the comfort of my own chair, but the modified jeep doesn’t stop for the “rumbling” bridge (which always causes me pain). It was wonderful!!!! I’ve ridden KS several times since, and I always wait for a modified jeep  now _(but you don’t have to!)_


My family loves the Safari! Very easy to get on with a wheelchair.
We‘ve been to the Safari many times over the years. I’ve never seen one stop at the accessible boarding area that was not a modified tram.
We often need to wait though - since there is only one accessible spot on the tram, we often have to wait for more than one because we are not the only ones wanting it.

More often than not, our tram doesn’t get the full ‘rumbling’ bridge. We do sometimes get it though - I’ve read the bridge is triggered at a certain speed; if the tram is not at the right speed at the right point, your tram just gets minimal rumbling,
My daughter happens to like being bounced, so she’s happy when we get the ‘rumbly’ bridge.
DD anticipating a good Safari!


----------



## DisneyOma

Lumpy1106 said:


> The FP queue would not be as full because they are letting the FP queue straight onto the ride as much as possible, whereas the people in the SB line are held to accommodate the FP line.  You are correct, the math in my example was bad, but your corrected math only goes to further prove my point - thanks!



Still didn't see what you claimed to have seen - but we saw a lot of plaids this trip when I've only seen 1-2 on past trips. Perhaps your influx was due to many more VIP tour groups. Also, we were not let right on in any of the queues at the merge point unless the SB queue was empty at that point (happened once at FoP because we were walking faster than the group in the SB queue). I guess your mileage may vary?


----------



## Evita_W

TwoMisfits said:


> Notice how quickly he was caught, fired, and shut down...


With 100 more taking his place right away......there is no stopping false documentation.


----------



## Lilsia

SueM in MN said:


> More often than not, our tram doesn’t get the full ‘rumbling’ bridge. We do sometimes get it though - I’ve read the bridge is triggered at a certain speed; if the tram is not at the right speed at the right point, your tram just gets minimal rumbling,
> My daughter happens to like being bounced, so she’s happy when we get the ‘rumbly’ bridge.



I really don't think that the bridge is working. I go to AK  several times a trip and ride the safari at least 3-4 times during all times of the day. I have not had the bridge work for well over 5 years. So I don't know what is going on with it.


----------



## Groot

CBMom01 said:


> It’s funny. I’m worried about the perception of abuse this trip because of the announcements. Used to be DS and I. Now with a bigger family but more need - 2 kids on the spectrum, one adult with cognitive challenges, and one with a not immediately obvious physical disability. I worry people will see 6 healthy looking people and assume we’re *those* people.
> 
> 
> Or worse, they assume we’re abusing and think, “hell, i should do that too!”



You wouldn’t BELIEVE the amount of times that I overheard parents tell their kids to “Act Crazy” so they can cut the lines.


----------



## ellataylor

Reading through this thread really increases my anxiety around using DAS for my upcoming trip. I don’t have a visible disability but I have 2 hidden reasons why I cannot stand (or sit ) in line. I have deep shame associated with these disabilities and I would rather struggle through and severely restrict my trip than to use DAS and risk being judged for not looking disabled enough.

I don’t deny the fraudsters but I think Disney do a good job at not making it a front of the line pass, but with the new paid Genie + I worry about the increased judgement and looks, people presuming I am trying to dodge the charge. I’d rather just suffer with my disabilities than be upset and ashamed of my disability on vacation.


----------



## Selket

ellataylor said:


> I don’t deny the fraudsters but I think Disney do a good job at not making it a front of the line pass, but with the new paid Genie + I worry about the increased judgement and looks, people presuming I am trying to dodge the charge. I’d rather just suffer with my disabilities than be upset and ashamed of my disability on vacation.



Once Genie+ and the new DAS system are up and running I really don't know how anyone could tell the difference, in your case, of someone in the lightening lane with a genie return time vs. a DAS return time.  Plus the return time is done via the app rather than going to the CM at the kiosk or attraction.   Your situation also seems well suited to using the video chat procedure to inquire about whether a DAS can help you.   If your trip is soon then perhaps write out the reasons you have trouble accessing the attractions and let the CM read it (so you don't have to discuss it out loud as much at Guest Services).


----------



## mcall12

ellataylor said:


> Reading through this thread really increases my anxiety around using DAS for my upcoming trip. I don’t have a visible disability but I have 2 hidden reasons why I cannot stand (or sit ) in line. I have deep shame associated with these disabilities and I would rather struggle through and severely restrict my trip than to use DAS and risk being judged for not looking disabled enough.
> 
> I don’t deny the fraudsters but I think Disney do a good job at not making it a front of the line pass, but with the new paid Genie + I worry about the increased judgement and looks, people presuming I am trying to dodge the charge. I’d rather just suffer with my disabilities than be upset and ashamed of my disability on vacation.



i have a condition that for others means they need a DAS. For me, right now, I don’t. I may in the future, I may not. If it comes to that time, I will request one but I know if that time comes, the one thing I won’t care about is the opinions of others who I will literally never see again.

We went earlier this summer. It’s really the first time we’ve waited in stand by lines because there was no fastpass. I didn’t spend a moment thinking about the fastpass line or others in it.  You have no obligation to satisfy anyone else’s curiosity, sense of fairness, judgement, etc. 

If you have a condition that makes waiting in the standard queue environment challenging, talk to guest services about the DAS. If a mobility device would help, use one. Your money to pay for the trip is just as green as anyone else’s. Don’t sacrifice your ability to enjoy it because some random strangers are spending too much time not minding their own business.


----------



## katmigordon

That actually will help quite a bit, it's better than feeling like you're doing it with an audience.  (I'm sure people weren't paying attention as much as I felt like they were - but it still felt like they were... if that makes any sense.)



MS_Warrior said:


> I do understand that. I have MS which can cause bathroom issues, also. It might be a little better now that you can do it online before going to the park and not standing in front of other people waiting in line….


----------



## TCRAIG

MissSha said:


> Not according to a vlog posted on youtube just last night when that clearly happened. I have no problem with people using scooters...it may make the difference about whether they can handle the physical toll of a disney trip. But to say they do not get front of the line access is not always the case.....let's face it, we've all seen it done.


I use my ECV at WDW and have for @10 years - including during the GAC years - I’ve never been offered front of the line…I’ve also never expected it.  I have used the alternate entrance feature for HM, IASW and Spaceship Earth which probably did and still may reduce my wait time - but certainly isn’t front of the line!


----------



## Disneylvr

Groot said:


> You wouldn’t BELIEVE the amount of times that I overheard parents tell their kids to “Act Crazy” so they can cut the lines.



I am glad I have never heard that while waiting in the guest services line with my daughter.  My reaction to those kind of parents would not be a good one.


----------



## disneydreamer1980

Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.


----------



## ttintagel

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



All standby queues are not created equal. Some are dark. Some are closed in while others are open-air. Some are configured so people are more single-file while others are built so they crowd together. Without knowing the specific needs of the person in question, you have no way of knowing which standby queues they are able to go through and which they aren’t.


----------



## MS_Warrior

katmigordon said:


> That actually will help quite a bit, it's better than feeling like you're(I'm sure people weren't paying attention as much as I felt like they were - but it still felt like they were... if that makes any sense.)



Makes perfect sense.


----------



## SueM in MN

DisneyOma said:


> Still didn't see what you claimed to have seen - but we saw a lot of plaids this trip when I've only seen 1-2 on past trips. Perhaps your influx was due to many more VIP tour groups. Also, we were not let right on in any of the queues at the merge point unless the SB queue was empty at that point (happened once at FoP because we were walking faster than the group in the SB queue). I guess your mileage may vary?


I agree with your observation about the VIP groups. We saw so many more plaids (VIP Tour Guides) during our trip in June than we have seen before. 
We normally see a few in a week trip, but during the recent trip, we usually saw 8-10 in the first hour in the park.
We very often saw them as they were bringing their guests into the Fastpass entrance  (the plaids didn‘t wait in line with them). 
People make the assumption that anyone in the Fastpass line is using DAS, but that’s not the case. Besides guests using DAS and VIP tours, the Fastpass line is used by guests using Rider Swap, returns for ride breakdown, guest recovery and certain clubs.
During our trip, I saw some big groups coming into the Fastpass line at AK. I later found out there were some trial going on in the Fastpass line - I don’t know if it was testing of some part of Genie or just part of re-training CMs


disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.


And, you knew they were “das families”, how?


----------



## tjmw2727

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



There are no long food lines RN as its all mobile order.

DAS guidelines suggest you combine strategies and wait in the lines you can rather than use DAS on everything.   We never needed DAS until April as we used a combination of FP and paid options like dessert parties to meet our needs.  Now that neither were an option DAS made it possible for our family to tour together rather than have some sit out due to certain (non visible) conditions. 

So you may have seen us use the DAS on Slinky but not FOP for example due to the nature of the line.


----------



## Chaitali

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.


Come on, this is ridiculous.  I have a DAS for a legitimate, very specific reason.  There are certain types of lines I can’t wait in.  I try not to abuse my DAS and only use it for lines where it is needed. So you’re saying that I should just use it all the time, even when it isn’t needed?


----------



## HopperFan

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



First you don't know who are DAS families are since it is on their MagicBand/Key/Phone just like it is for Child Swap, some Recovery tickets etc.  We don't carry the big red cards anymore so no one knows who we are. And you see these same people in lines elsewhere around the parks? You are keeping track of what they are doing? 

You clearly don't understand why the DAS was actually created (and has been expanded to other needs) .... * It's not about length of time for most.* It is more about the factors in the line that make it difficult.  You aren't supposed to use your DAS unless you need it at any particular attraction. 

Most often it is about the structure of the queue. My DS has become very patient in lines but it is the structure of the line and our proximity to other guests that create the issue. If it is a primarily outdoor queue where sound isn't trapped or a large indoor line with no switchbacks he does okay. But if we are always smack up against other guests in a situation where you are sardines like BTMR or Frozen or FOP, and it is difficult to escape - then he can't be trapped that long. It's not he can't wait time wise, it's he can't handle the environment - and that is what DAS is for.

So if you see DS waited longer for Slinky, Haunted Mansion, Pirates but couldn't wait for Frozen, Buzz or BTMR ... it is not that he is abusing the DAS, it is that he is actually using it the way it is supposed to be used ... _only where necessary_.  

Perhaps since you don't know what the DAS is designed for it be best not to assume and just enjoy YOUR trip.


----------



## CJN

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



Using DAS in some lines and not in others is actually proof of it not being abused.


----------



## Ember

The problem is that there will always be two camps. One is the people who legitimately need DAS. They use the system and it’s advantages to make their vacations work for them. Because many people have invisible disabilities, they take the notion of “looking like you’re cheating” very personally. Which is understandable. Because they need these accommodations, talking about the abuses within the system is always going to be hard. In order to stop the abuse, Disney would need to take away the very advantages people need and when life is already a struggle, the thought of that can be very disheartening.

Then there there is the other camp. The people who abuse the system for the advantages it can get you. If you think what amounts to an extra fast pass using the current system wasn’t going to tempt some people to cheat, I think that’s very naive. I don’t think the abuse was huge. But it absolutely happened. Once it becomes the only way to pre-book attractions, and you can do it 30 days out? That’s a major advantage. We are talking about people who used to be up at all hours to get their kid the right fast pass. People who used to hire disabled people to give them access to faster lines. The same people who made Disney redo the previous GAC system due to their rampant abuse. The reason it is encouraged not to talk about how to get a DAS on here. (They’re probably the same people who let their kid pee in line… )

The thing is, I think it’s very possible to both support DAS and its accommodations, and still acknowledge that there are a lot of people who just suck who will absolutely misuse the system to their advantage. Once the changes come in, I think those numbers will increase dramatically, to the disadvantage of everyone.

I get that this is very personal to a lot of people (myself included). I also think it should be okay to discuss the fact that people misuse the system without it being seen as an attack on those who use it properly.


----------



## mamabunny

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



Since you are such an expert on DAS, I'm surprised that you didn't remember that "food lines" are *not* applicable for DAS use - so let's remove *that* from your argument.

DAS does not offer any accommodations for dining, shopping or Resort hotel rooms at WDW.  Those are all separate items outside the scope of DAS.


----------



## BadPinkTink

Ember said:


> The problem is that there will always be two camps. One is the people who legitimately need DAS. They use the system and it’s advantages to make their vacations work for them. Because many people have invisible disabilities, they take the notion of “looking like you’re cheating” very personally. Which is understandable. Because they need these accommodations, talking about the abuses within the system is always going to be hard. In order to stop the abuse, Disney would need to take away the very advantages people need and when life is already a struggle, the thought of that can be very disheartening.
> 
> Then there there is the other camp. The people who abuse the system for the advantages it can get you. If you think what amounts to an extra fast pass using the current system wasn’t going to tempt some people to cheat, I think that’s very naive. I don’t think the abuse was huge. But it absolutely happened. Once it becomes the only way to pre-book attractions, and you can do it 30 days out? That’s a major advantage. We are talking about people who used to be up at all hours to get their kid the right fast pass. People who used to hire disabled people to give them access to faster lines. The same people who made Disney redo the previous GAC system due to their rampant abuse. The reason it is encouraged not to talk about how to get a DAS on here. (They’re probably the same people who let their kid pee in line… )
> 
> The thing is, I think it’s very possible to both support DAS and its accommodations, and still acknowledge that there are a lot of people who just suck who will absolutely misuse the system to their advantage. Once the changes come in, I think those numbers will increase dramatically, to the disadvantage of everyone.
> 
> I get that this is very personal to a lot of people (myself included). I also think it should be okay to discuss the fact that people misuse the system without it being seen as an attack on those who use it properly.



this has to be the most logical and sensible post in this thread.

Look we all understand those of you with legitimate and genuine reasons for using DAS, many of which may be hidden or invisible and we all understand that it is a very personal and emotional issue when you feel judged and people think you are abusing the system. What every needs to acknowledge is that while the majority of people are genuine and using it for legitimate reasons, there are a minority who are not.  There will always be people who will find loopholes, who will work out how how to game the system, just because they can and they know Disney can not question it.

How many times have all of us been at guest services to give cast compliments and seen all the people complaining  to get replacement fast passes or anytime return fast passes, or free food, or all the other things that Disney does no questions asked when people complain. Again it is a minority of people gaming the system because someone with that genuine complaint got something free or extra and they want it too. 

I see it just the same as the minority of people at restaurants who know how to game the system of getting free food. I used to work at Hard Rock Cafe. They had a policy of comping a guests meal, no questions asked, if the guest complained for any reason. Over the years, and I worked in 2 different Hard Rocks in 2 different countries, the amount of people who got free food was just astounding. One incident I will always remember, a customer complained that there was a hair in her food, a long blonde hair. None of the staff who had contact with her plate of food, from the chefs to the expedite staff, to the server and the manager had long blonde hair. The only person who had long blonde hair was the customer who complained, and got free food.  

Iv'e seen it on public transport in my city. People abusing the free travel scheme, which is meant for old people and people on benefits, one person gets on the bus and tags on with the travel card, then throws the travel card out the window to their friend, who gets on and tags on with the same travel card. 

Ive seen it on Disboards, with people asking can they get away with not getting their child a parks tickets because their child looks young and they know that Disney dont ask for proof of childs age at the entrance turnstiles. 

There will always be a minority who game the system, who think that person got xyz so why cant I get xzy.


----------



## Chaitali

BadPinkTink said:


> this has to be the most logical and sensible post in this thread.
> 
> Look we all understand those of you with legitimate and genuine reasons for using DAS, many of which may be hidden or invisible and we all understand that it is a very personal and emotional issue when you feel judged and people think you are abusing the system. What every needs to acknowledge is that while the majority of people are genuine and using it for legitimate reasons, there are a minority who are not.  There will always be people who will find loopholes, who will work out how how to game the system, just because they can and they know Disney can not question it.
> 
> How many times have all of us been at guest services to give cast compliments and seen all the people complaining  to get replacement fast passes or anytime return fast passes, or free food, or all the other things that Disney does no questions asked when people complain. Again it is a minority of people gaming the system because someone with that genuine complaint got something free or extra and they want it too.
> 
> I see it just the same as the minority of people at restaurants who know how to game the system of getting free food. I used to work at Hard Rock Cafe. They had a policy of comping a guests meal, no questions asked, if the guest complained for any reason. Over the years, and I worked in 2 different Hard Rocks in 2 different countries, the amount of people who got free food was just astounding. One incident I will always remember, a customer complained that there was a hair in her food, a long blonde hair. None of the staff who had contact with her plate of food, from the chefs to the expedite staff, to the server and the manager had long blonde hair. The only person who had long blonde hair was the customer who complained, and got free food.
> 
> Iv'e seen it on public transport in my city. People abusing the free travel scheme, which is meant for old people and people on benefits, one person gets on the bus and tags on with the travel card, then throws the travel card out the window to their friend, who gets on and tags on with the same travel card.
> 
> Ive seen it on Disboards, with people asking can they get away with not getting their child a parks tickets because their child looks young and they know that Disney dont ask for proof of childs age at the entrance turnstiles.
> 
> There will always be a minority who game the system, who think that person got xyz so why cant I get xzy.


Right.  I think everyone acknowledges that every system will have some abuse.  I just don’t think it’s that much compared to the people with a legitimate need.  So then you have to weigh any extra security measures, and is it more likely to hurt people legitimately using the system.  If the abuse is not rampant, then it doesn’t make sense to add measures that will create more harm than good.


----------



## Disneylvr

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.


You follow and monitor “das families” while you are in the parks?


----------



## DisneyOma

HopperFan said:


> Most often it is about the structure of the queue. My DS has become very patient in lines but it is the structure of the line and our proximity to other guests that create the issue. If it is a primarily outdoor queue where sound isn't trapped or a large indoor line with no switchbacks he does okay. But if we are always smack up against other guests in a situation where you are sardines like BTMR or Frozen or FOP, and it is difficult to escape - then he can't be trapped that long. It's not he can't wait time wise, it's he can't handle the environment - and that is what DAS is for.



BTMR - I almost didn't make it onto BTMR this past trip, even using the DAS because the part where you go down into the "bowels" of the mine, where the walls are high and you are in two lines, makes me incredibly anxious. I even hate how you can look down from above and see that part of the queue so I try not to look. I think that's the worst queue in WDW for me after Peter Pan's Flight.


----------



## Ember

Chaitali said:


> Right.  I think everyone acknowledges that every system will have some abuse.  I just don’t think it’s that much compared to the people with a legitimate need.  So then you have to weigh any extra security measures, and is it more likely to hurt people legitimately using the system.  If the abuse is not rampant, then it doesn’t make sense to add measures that will create more harm than good.



I agree - at the current time. When Disney puts the ability to pre-book attractions in place… that will be a different story. Whatever screening method they use, I really hope it’s up to the task of managing the people who will try to “hack” the system.

I’m with the previous poster. The huge number of people who happily lie about their child being younger than they are to save the price of a ticket (who totally don’t view this as stealing in any way), are the same people who will gleefully lie for a chance to use this system.

I am all for the pre-registration call. That’s a great idea. I think the pre-booking 2x attractions/day is a terrible idea that will absolutely end in masses of people lying for access.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Ember said:


> I agree - at the current time. When Disney puts the ability to pre-book attractions in place… that will be a different story. Whatever screening method they use, I really hope it’s up to the task of managing the people who will try to “hack” the system.
> 
> I’m with the previous poster. The huge number of people who happily lie about their child being younger than they are to save the price of a ticket (who totally don’t view this as stealing in any way), are the same people who will gleefully lie for a chance to use this system.
> 
> I am all for the pre-registration call. That’s a great idea. I think the pre-booking 2x attractions/day is a terrible idea that will absolutely end in masses of people lying for access.


Yep.  Pre-registration is awesome, two preselected rides not so much.
And the pre-registration will be pretty meaningless unless they track those who are rejected for DAS before and then reject them if they try again in person as well.


----------



## DisneyOma

OurBigTrip said:


> Yep.  Pre-registration is awesome, two preselected rides not so much.
> And the pre-registration will be pretty meaningless unless they track those who are rejected for DAS before and then reject them if they try again in person as well.



What if the situation for those people change? What if the first request is denied because an ECV or wheelchair works better, but then something else comes up?


----------



## OurBigTrip

DisneyOma said:


> What if the situation for those people change? What if the first request is denied because an ECV or wheelchair works better, but then something else comes up?


If they come into the park and can’t make it work without a DAS, then they should do what people do now who are denied - go back and  tell Guest Services that they tried without but it didn’t work.


----------



## SueM in MN

OurBigTrip said:


> If they come into the park and can’t make it work without a DAS, then they should do what people do now who are denied - go back and  tell Guest Services that they tried without but it didn’t work.


And, be ready to explain what they tried and what issues they had with it


----------



## Lizgistix

DisneyOma said:


> BTMR - I almost didn't make it onto BTMR this past trip, even using the DAS because the part where you go down into the "bowels" of the mine, where the walls are high and you are in two lines, makes me incredibly anxious.



Heck, I can only imagine. Would you be able to ask to use the wheelchair/ecv entrance instead? It loads at the exit outside and the line is usually very short.


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## DisSurfer878

DisneyOma said:


> They have accommodated a family of 8 with only two adults in the past.  But a party of 20 would rarely be in the same ride vehicle, more like taking up 5-10 of them, so there's no real "together" except in the queue.  What people can do is have the party members not using DAS get in the queue, and then the DAS party would be able to keep in contact and coordinate the return so that they could meetup at the front. If the SB queue is moving faster than the allotted time on the DAS, the family could step aside and wait for the rest if it was that important for them to ride together.


That sounds really easy on paper. The likelihood of it really working out that way though? Not so easy.


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## tobikaye

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



I know you pretty much have had plenty of responses and you might just possible have wanted to , but seriously, you sound like the type of person that many of us fear will say something to us or the person we love about the need for a FP.

My sister is very good at waits, it is the environment of the wait that is an issue for her. Even with the DAS, there are some attractions she loves that she cannot do any longer because of the queue situation, even in the FP lane.

I know many in this board get a DAS for an issue I have though I have not yet needed the DAS. I have just been lucky that my bad flair ups have not happened during a trip. There may come a time when I will need to use a disability pass. Based on my flairs, I probably could still wait in some main queues, but not the longer queues where you cannot get out quickly or safely.

Please just remember that not all, as you say, “das families” are just using it for FP.  I do know that there is abuse use of the DAS, but how do you know which are just because they can wait in a long line in some situations?


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## OurBigTrip

One thing that would be interesting to see would be how many times, if ever, does a DAS user get a return time for a long wait ride, say SDMT, then immediately go into the same standby queue, wait the one to two hours to ride, then immediately redeem their return time to ride again.


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## CBMom01

OurBigTrip said:


> One thing that would be interesting to see would be how many times, if ever, does a DAS user get a return time for a long wait ride, say SDMT, then immediately go into the same standby queue, wait the one to two hours to ride, then immediately redeem their return time to ride again.


I had to read that twice to understand what you were asking.

I see that as a very unlikely scenario


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## BadPinkTink

OurBigTrip said:


> One thing that would be interesting to see would be how many times, if ever, does a DAS user get a return time for a long wait ride, say SDMT, then immediately go into the same standby queue, wait the one to two hours to ride, then immediately redeem their return time to ride again.



I would say it happens more often than people realise, by the people who are gaming the system. I used to do something similar all the time, not with DAS but with single rider and the normal Fastpass. I would get a normal Fastpass for Radiator Springs Racers. Then about 20 minutes before the time window of the Fastpass I would do Single Rider, then use my Fastpass, then go back in Single Rider. I could do Radiator Springs Racers 3 times this way in the same time it would take people in the standby line to do the ride once.  

If I worked out how to combine single rider and Fastpass, I'm sure that doing the same with DAS would be one of the hacks the not genuine people would also do. After all if they get a DAS without a genuine reason, then of course they are going to use it to get as much worth out of it as possible.


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## CJN

Oh, good grief. Using single rider line back-to-back with a FP doesn’t even come close to the level of gaming the system. And it doesn't have anything to do with DAS.

This thread seems to have devolved into an odd conversation - people worried about DAS being abused are seemingly shouting out to the world how to (supposedly) abuse DAS. And doing so before the new changes are even implemented. Let’s see how it works first.


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## mamabunny

Also, for those with fears about people potentially "gaming" the system, let's stop for a moment, and consider this:

Anyone who *geniunely* needs that DAS won't be running the standard queue if they have a DAS for that attraction, ever.  The reason is simple - _*if you have a DAS for that ride or attraction, there's a reason you cannot utilize that queue*_.  That's all the DAS is for - to help the Guest wait *outside* the standard queue environment.  It's a virtual queue, a way to wait your turn like everyone else, just outside the ride or attraction queue.

Anyone who *does* pull that kind of nonsense (get a DAS return time, then line up to ride in the regular queue, and then use the DAS return time) should not be surprised if they are flagged in the system, and/or find out that the DAS has been cancelled by the use the standard queue when they tapped in with their Magic Band.


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## DisneyOma

mamabunny said:


> Anyone who *does* pull that kind of nonsense (get a DAS return time, then line up to ride in the regular queue, and then use the DAS return time) should not be surprised if they are flagged in the system, and/or find out that the DAS has been cancelled by the use the standard queue when they tapped in with their Magic Band.



What 'tap in with magic band' are you talking about? When the DAS holder taps in for the return time? How would anyone know you were in the standby queue before that? Now that you have to pay for magic bands, many people aren't using them, from my experience. Most people ahead of us requesting a return time or tapping in had cards instead. If someone uses an RFID blocking wallet, like I do, then there's no way to know where the person has been. Or if an adult in the group carries the child's magic band around and goes in the queue it will look like the child is there too. I hope Disney has more common sense than thinking the tickets are a "catch and release" program for tracking where we are. How does that work when dad carries around the tickets for all 6 of the family in his wallet, but mom takes the little ones on Pooh while he goes in the queue for Space Mountain with the older kids? There are just too many variables for Disney to legally depend on tracking data from a removeable band or a ticket.


----------



## OurBigTrip

mamabunny said:


> Also, for those with fears about people potentially "gaming" the system, let's stop for a moment, and consider this:
> 
> Anyone who *geniunely* needs that DAS won't be running the standard queue if they have a DAS for that attraction, ever.  The reason is simple - _*if you have a DAS for that ride or attraction, there's a reason you cannot utilize that queue*_.  That's all the DAS is for - to help the Guest wait *outside* the standard queue environment.  It's a virtual queue, a way to wait your turn like everyone else, just outside the ride or attraction queue.
> 
> Anyone who *does* pull that kind of nonsense (get a DAS return time, then line up to ride in the regular queue, and then use the DAS return time) should not be surprised if they are flagged in the system, and/or find out that the DAS has been cancelled by the use the standard queue when they tapped in with their Magic Band.


That was my point - people who genuinely need a DAS aren’t going to do that, but anyone who is willing to lie to get one isn’t going to hesitate to abuse it once they have it.


----------



## gap2368

Lizgistix said:


> Heck, I can only imagine. Would you be able to ask to use the wheelchair/ecv entrance instead? It loads at the exit outside and the line is usually very short.


I use the handicap entrance for the very same resion


----------



## shawthorne44

Groot said:


> The CM saw that they were getting ready to fight and promptly called for security to escort them out of the park.



Awesome!   There needs to be more of that.


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## DisSurfer878

OurBigTrip said:


> One thing that would be interesting to see would be how many times, if ever, does a DAS user get a return time for a long wait ride, say SDMT, then immediately go into the same standby queue, wait the one to two hours to ride, then immediately redeem their return time to ride again.


The ONLY time I have ever seen this happen was with the two teenaged children of a disabled adult. They got a return time with their mom, and then they got in line right behind us, sans their mother, then went again with her. I don't really count this as the same thing. And, yes, I'm sure the DAS was for their mom.


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## ellataylor

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



These are the kind of posts that put me off using a DAS for fear of judgement. Clearly no understanding of different needs, different disabilities and how they are affected by differing environments. Plus a person who spends time on their vacation focusing on other people’s line habits.


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## ZellyB

Ember said:


> The problem is that there will always be two camps. One is the people who legitimately need DAS. They use the system and it’s advantages to make their vacations work for them. Because many people have invisible disabilities, they take the notion of “looking like you’re cheating” very personally. Which is understandable. Because they need these accommodations, talking about the abuses within the system is always going to be hard. In order to stop the abuse, Disney would need to take away the very advantages people need and when life is already a struggle, the thought of that can be very disheartening.
> 
> Then there there is the other camp. The people who abuse the system for the advantages it can get you. If you think what amounts to an extra fast pass using the current system wasn’t going to tempt some people to cheat, I think that’s very naive. I don’t think the abuse was huge. But it absolutely happened. Once it becomes the only way to pre-book attractions, and you can do it 30 days out? That’s a major advantage. We are talking about people who used to be up at all hours to get their kid the right fast pass. People who used to hire disabled people to give them access to faster lines. The same people who made Disney redo the previous GAC system due to their rampant abuse. The reason it is encouraged not to talk about how to get a DAS on here. (They’re probably the same people who let their kid pee in line… )
> 
> The thing is, I think it’s very possible to both support DAS and its accommodations, and still acknowledge that there are a lot of people who just suck who will absolutely misuse the system to their advantage. Once the changes come in, I think those numbers will increase dramatically, to the disadvantage of everyone.
> 
> I get that this is very personal to a lot of people (myself included). I also think it should be okay to discuss the fact that people misuse the system without it being seen as an attack on those who use it properly.



I don't really disagree with what you are saying here, and I think most here would agree that there are people who abuse the system.  Most of the time when people get upset with posts about abuse is when people claim to be able to tell there is abuse by looking at other people and making judgments.  Seeing "das families" in some line now makes them an expert on the fact that those individuals are clearly cheating.  This idea that anyone can just look at someone and determine what is or isn't legitimate use is ridiculous and just because we all acknowledge that some abuse occurs doesn't mean we accept that kind of superficial and absurd judgment.  

I've never used a DAS.  Hoping I won't need to in future.  I started following this forum more because I've had to start using a scooter and it's very helpful for that.  But having overheard someone in the parks making one of those judgments about me just because I had a scooter was hurtful, ignorant and upsetting.  I realize I shouldn't have let it upset me, but I did regardless.  And, I wasn't even using DAS on that trip.  I waited in standby lines like everybody else.  So perhaps if people would refrain from claiming they can tell by looking at someone or by how many people are in the FP line or whatever strange justification they use to "prove" abuse, those of us who have been or fear being judged wouldn't be defensive.


----------



## olwyngdh

ZellyB said:


> I don't really disagree with what you are saying here, and I think most here would agree that there are people who abuse the system.  Most of the time when people get upset with posts about abuse is when people claim to be able to tell there is abuse by looking at other people and making judgments.  Seeing "das families" in some line now makes them an expert on the fact that those individuals are clearly cheating.  This idea that anyone can just look at someone and determine what is or isn't legitimate use is ridiculous and just because we all acknowledge that some abuse occurs doesn't mean we accept that kind of superficial and absurd judgment.
> 
> I've never used a DAS.  Hoping I won't need to in future.  I started following this forum more because I've had to start using a scooter and it's very helpful for that.  But having overheard someone in the parks making one of those judgments about me just because I had a scooter was hurtful, ignorant and upsetting.  I realize I shouldn't have let it upset me, but I did regardless.  And, I wasn't even using DAS on that trip.  I waited in standby lines like everybody else.  So perhaps if people would refrain from claiming they can tell by looking at someone or by how many people are in the FP line or whatever strange justification they use to "prove" abuse, those of us who have been or fear being judged wouldn't be defensive.



I used a DAS for the first time on my last trip. I had never thought about being eligible because I use a scooter until a white shirted castmember came up to me in line, gave me a return time, and sent me to Guest Services to get one because she didn't think I should have to fumble under my clothes in front of people to deal with my medical implant and attachments. It made things so much easier not having to watch who was around and get my husband to try to block line of site so I didn't traumatize some kid or some kid's mother. Now I am reconsidering applying for one for our next trip because I am going to be so obviously cheating the system by using one since I already use a scooter. I have had enough abuse from other Disney guests over that-including physical at one point-that I don't know that I can take the additional stress of the further abuse I am going to get from people like some of the posters on the various threads. I don't know if they understand how hurtful their words are or if they even care.


----------



## SirDuff

mamabunny said:


> Also, for those with fears about people potentially "gaming" the system, let's stop for a moment, and consider this:
> 
> Anyone who *geniunely* needs that DAS won't be running the standard queue if they have a DAS for that attraction, ever.  The reason is simple - _*if you have a DAS for that ride or attraction, there's a reason you cannot utilize that queue*_.  That's all the DAS is for - to help the Guest wait *outside* the standard queue environment.  It's a virtual queue, a way to wait your turn like everyone else, just outside the ride or attraction queue.
> 
> Anyone who *does* pull that kind of nonsense (get a DAS return time, then line up to ride in the regular queue, and then use the DAS return time) should not be surprised if they are flagged in the system, and/or find out that the DAS has been cancelled by the use the standard queue when they tapped in with their Magic Band.



I rather think that that was BigTrip's point.  Though I don't really see how it can be tracked since not everyone uses a magic band.


----------



## ZJ5/9D47

Disneyfan754321 said:


> Our doctor doesnt write the note, the nurse or the social worker  does on the doctor's behalf.  Now days it's pretty easy to get a  doctor note but yes it would stop most of the  fakers.   Our note was so generic .. I think it said  our sons name  can not stand in a line que  or be exposed to heat  for lengthy amounts due to a permanent disability.
> 
> That is what six flags asks for, if it says the disability they will hand it back and wont take it.  Then they gave me that day with a temporary das pass so I could get it fixed.  Yes I realize that most people go for more than one day... the simple fact of having the note is a deterrent for some.



Imagine down the road your son has not had health insurance for several years because getting a job with benefits is tough in this economy and extra tough when disabled. It can take a very long time to get established with a new doctor and get to the point they feel comfortable providing a note for a disability pass. With a high-deductible plan, this process could cost thousands of dollars...all just to be able to access an already expensive vacation.

Now imagine you are diagnosed suddenly with terminal cancer and you want one last Disney trip with your family but your son can’t go because of the time and hurdles needed to get a doctor’s note. It’s fine though because some guests were prevented from lying and getting a DAS pass when they didn’t need it, right?

I don’t see myself going to Six Flags ever because there are no stated exceptions to the requirement to provide a doctor’s note and the pass is automatically required for me since the regular queues aren’t wheelchair-accessible. I don’t live near one of their parks and the third-party company used puts expiration dates on how long the notes are valid. I’m not too upset though because if that is their policy, I’m guessing their ride operations are just as terrible and I’m not interested in risking my health and safety that way.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Bottom line, Disney is going to have to do something with the new system, or there is going to be rampant abuse from the non-disabled who will want those two freebie attractions each day and Genie+ benefits without paying for Genie+ as well as first time DAS users who are on the cusp now, meaning they are able to get by with FP+ but won't be willing to pay for Genie+, so they'll get a DAS instead.  

Disney may well have a plan for cutting back on the abuse, either by asking more questions about why it's needed and thus limiting the attractions it can be used on for each guest (along the lines of those who have stated here that sometimes it's not the wait time in the line but rather the type of line, noise, crowded switchbacks, etc.) or by doing what Sue mentioned earlier about tracking who is on the DAS with the DAS holder (never the same group twice over a period of time, etc.).  No idea what they have in mind, but by going from the DAS being a tool for equal access to a tool for preferred access, they're incentivizing the very abuse that they claimed they were trying to avoid when they won their lawsuit last year.


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> Bottom line, Disney is going to have to do something with the new system, or there is going to be rampant abuse from the non-disabled who will want those two freebie attractions each day and Genie+ benefits without paying for Genie+ as well as first time DAS users who are on the cusp now, meaning they are able to get by with FP+ but won't be willing to pay for Genie+, so they'll get a DAS instead.
> 
> Disney may well have a plan for cutting back on the abuse, either by asking more questions about why it's needed and thus limiting the attractions it can be used on for each guest (along the lines of those who have stated here that sometimes it's not the wait time in the line but rather the type of line, noise, crowded switchbacks, etc.) or by doing what Sue mentioned earlier about tracking who is on the DAS with the DAS holder (never the same group twice over a period of time, etc.).  No idea what they have in mind, but by going from the DAS being a tool for equal access to a tool for preferred access, they're incentivizing the very abuse that they claimed they were trying to avoid when they won their lawsuit last year.




My understanding on the two you sign up for, is you are on the waitlist. With the DAS, you still wait the standby time. It’s not a fast pass. I’ve not used the DAS, but I use a wheelchair, and on the rides that have lines that aren’t accessible, I get a return time equal to the standby wait time. It just allows me to wait in a virtual queue instead of standing in line. I believe the DAS is the same.


----------



## magicalfoursome

OurBigTrip said:


> One thing that would be interesting to see would be how many times, if ever, does a DAS user get a return time for a long wait ride, say SDMT, then immediately go into the same standby queue, wait the one to two hours to ride, then immediately redeem their return time to ride again.


I used a DAS pass for the first time in 2019. I would never even think of doing this as the reason I get the pass is because standing in line poses certain risks and obstacles for me. Those who legitimately need DAS do not use it to ride twice.


ellataylor said:


> These are the kind of posts that put me off using a DAS for fear of judgement. Clearly no understanding of different needs, different disabilities and how they are affected by differing environments. Plus a person who spends time on their vacation focusing on other people’s line habits.


I used a DAS pass for the first time in 2019. I had been diagnosed a few months earlier and avoiding crowded queues was important for my condition. I never felt judged by anyone and frankly I wouldn’t care. I don’t care what people think. I care about my health and safety. I never even knew about DAS in the past because my family and I never needed it. If you need it, get it.


----------



## OurBigTrip

MS_Warrior said:


> My understanding on the two you sign up for, is you are on the waitlist. With the DAS, you still wait the standby time. It’s not a fast pass. I’ve not used the DAS, but I use a wheelchair, and on the rides that have lines that aren’t accessible, I get a return time equal to the standby wait time. It just allows me to wait in a virtual queue instead of standing in line. I believe the DAS is the same.


Not sure what you mean about the waitlist for the two DAS freebies…my understanding is that if the preferred attraction is available, you have a one hour window, and you’ll enter through the Lightning Lane at that point.

And while the DAS isn’t exactly like a FP, it works pretty much the same way…you reserve a time to enter the LL, then go do something else while you wait.


----------



## Sandisw

OurBigTrip said:


> One thing that would be interesting to see would be how many times, if ever, does a DAS user get a return time for a long wait ride, say SDMT, then immediately go into the same standby queue, wait the one to two hours to ride, then immediately redeem their return time to ride again.



Those who need DAS are more likely to get the return time and before they can ride, something happens and they need to leave the park.

Plenty of times this is my reality.


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## lanejudy

OurBigTrip said:


> Not sure what you mean about the waitlist for the two DAS freebies…my understanding is that if the preferred attraction is available, you have a one hour window, and you’ll enter through the Lightning Lane at that point


My understanding of Genie+ is you’ll get the “next available” ride time — presumably out of a bucket of reserved slots.  Like FP+, you may find something to ride just 10 minutes out regardless of the standby time. DAS is standby-10.  So say 7DMT has a 60 minute standby.  Genie+ may get a time for 15 minutes from now, but the DAS user has to wait 50 minutes.


----------



## Evita_W

Selket said:


> Once Genie+ and the new DAS system are up and running I really don't know how anyone could tell the difference, in your case, of someone in the lightening lane with a genie return time vs. a DAS return time.  Plus the return time is done via the app rather than going to the CM at the kiosk or attraction.   Your situation also seems well suited to using the video chat procedure to inquire about whether a DAS can help you.   If your trip is soon then perhaps write out the reasons you have trouble accessing the attractions and let the CM read it (so you don't have to discuss it out loud as much at Guest Services).


Now here is an interesting thought though, will there be more animosity towards the Lightening Lanes since now it is a paid system? I mean will those who feel they can't afford it be even more upset with those that do use it? And if so, will that carry over to those who use a DAS?


----------



## Ember

lanejudy said:


> My understanding of Genie+ is you’ll get the “next available” ride time — presumably out of a bucket of reserved slots.  Like FP+, you may find something to ride just 10 minutes out regardless of the standby time. DAS is standby-10.  So say 7DMT has a 60 minute standby.  Genie+ may get a time for 15 minutes from now, but the DAS user has to wait 50 minutes.



How Genie+ will work is all just speculation at this point. For very popular attractions, I imagine the “bucket” of slots available might get taken first thing, when the system goes live at 7am each morning. Much like the original fast passes used to. (I still remember racing to Cars Land in California Adventure at rope drop, to get a fast pass for Radiator Springs, and getting a return time of 8pm. They’d be gone completely within 15 minutes of park opening, with many people still waiting in the line to get one…) The other option was to wait in line for hours and hours. In cases like this, being able to get a return time at any point in the day would have been quite the advantage. Show up at noon, long after the fast passes have all been allocated, get a return time five hours later… sure it’s a long wait to ride, but you’re off doing other things the entire day, and you’ve gotten that “fast pass” for free rather than paid $15 for it. (Or $20 at Disneyland

I am absolutely not okay with calling people out. I would never presume to have enough information to even look sideways at someone, and it’s none of my darn business! (But I do hope Disney would, if they could prove abuse.) And I wouldn’t take this away, even with the people who abuse the system. It provides access to people who need it in probably the most fair way possible. But I also think people claiming there isn’t a considerable advantage to be gained by liars and cheats, are kidding themselves.

Last note: To the poster who was talking about the cost of a doctors note… This is one of those things you forget when you aren’t American and have free and easy access. That you guys pay so much for your healthcare.  Every time I am re-reminded it’s a bit of a shock.


----------



## Starwind

Ember said:


> Last note: To the poster who was talking about the cost of a doctors note… This is one of those things you forget when you aren’t American and have free and easy access. That you guys pay so much for your healthcare.  Every time I am re-reminded it’s a bit of a shock.



Even here in Ontario with a public healthcare system, such a doctors note may not be provided for free ... my family physician would charge $150 for it as such a note/letter (required by a third party) is not covered by OHIP (or whatever the government plan is actually called these days), and I'm not sure if that fee also covers the doctor visit to get the note or if there is an additional fee for that.


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> Not sure what you mean about the waitlist for the two DAS freebies…my understanding is that if the preferred attraction is available, you have a one hour window, and you’ll enter through the Lightning Lane at that point.
> 
> And while the DAS isn’t exactly like a FP, it works pretty much the same way…you reserve a time to enter the LL, then go do something else while you wait.



They pick the times for the return on the first two. My understanding is you get what’s assigned for those.

I do understand what you’re saying about the return time. However, with FP, you’re able to book more than one at a time. Oftentimes, you can get a FP during a peak time and not wait the 2 hours, etc. With DAS, the person still has to wait the 2 hours. 

You are correct that they could ride something else while they wait. However, for us, when we’ve been given return times for my WC, we’ve used that time to rest. We don’t have the energy to run to another area to ride. 

However, I do understand that scammers will always take advantage. I hope Disney keeps that in mind when doing the DAS, but I would hate to see them get strict enough to prevent those who need it from asking for it.

Since I’ve become disabled, it’s amazing to me what I’ve learned from those who have other types of disabilities.


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## MS_Warrior

Sandisw said:


> Those who need DAS are more likely to get the return time and before they can ride, something happens and they need to leave the park.
> 
> Plenty of times this is my reality.



Unfortunately! I remember the days we did parks from rope drop to goodnight kiss… Now, we’re never there early and I can’t remember the last time I stayed long enough to see fireworks.


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## SueM in MN

DisSurfer878 said:


> The ONLY time I have ever seen this happen was with the two teenaged children of a disabled adult. They got a return time with their mom, and then they got in line right behind us, sans their mother, then went again with her. I don't really count this as the same thing. And, yes, I'm sure the DAS was for their mom.


true


lanejudy said:


> My understanding of Genie+ is you’ll get the “next available” ride time — presumably out of a bucket of reserved slots.  Like FP+, you may find something to ride just 10 minutes out regardless of the standby time. DAS is standby-10.  So say 7DMT has a 60 minute standby.  Genie+ may get a time for 15 minutes from now, but the DAS user has to wait 50 minutes.


Agree. The postings that say DAS Users will get Genie+ for free are not correct according to what Disney has posted.
GENIE+ is “next available time” and the information says you can choose Lightning Lane selections for multiple parks.
DAS is “comparable to the current wait time. The information mentions only the park you are currently in.
These are screenshots From the Disney website announcements. This first part (highlighted in green) is about Genie+ Lightning Lane selections. WDW resort guests can make their first Lightning Lane selection at 7am on the day of their visit. Once they have used that selection, they can make another.
The second part (highlighted in blue) is the Individual Attraction Selections - these are immediate access using the Lightning Lane, paid per attraction. The attractions and the price will vary. Busier days = higher cost. Busier attraction = higher cost.
These would still be available thru Standby according to the Disney website video images.
The third part is Virtual Queues - this sounds the same as the current ‘Boarding Groups’.
The isn’t much information other than this.


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## SueM in MN

lanejudy said:


> My understanding of Genie+ is you’ll get the “next available” ride time — presumably out of a bucket of reserved slots.  Like FP+, you may find something to ride just 10 minutes out regardless of the standby time. DAS is standby-10.  So say 7DMT has a 60 minute standby.  Genie+ may get a time for 15 minutes from now, but the DAS user has to wait 50 minutes.


Genie+ = “next available time”
DAS = “comparable to the current wait”

Guests who register for DAS virtually ahead of time have the opportunity to select up to 2 experiences per day. In several places on the Disney website, it says;the can choose from ‘select attractions’ and ‘if the experience is available’.
It does NOT say what the ‘select’ attractions/experiences will be, so is not a given that the high demand attractions will be part of the selections. 
There is a one hour return window; it’s not clear if guests will be able to choose a time or just be given a time - if it works out, great; if not, too bad.


This second screenshot from the Disney website explains DAS Return Times, which are comparable to the current queue wait time. The DAS Return Time is valid until the park (or attraction) closes. So, if the attraction has a long wait, the DAS Return Time will be that long into the futur. My own family has had to leave the park before our DAS Return Time came, either my daughter had a seizure or just was having a bad day.

At the end of the screenshot, Disney suggests guests using DAS should also use the free Genie features, plus consider purchasing the extra cost features.


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## Selket

Evita_W said:


> Now here is an interesting thought though, will there be more animosity towards the Lightening Lanes since now it is a paid system? I mean will those who feel they can't afford it be even more upset with those that do use it? And if so, will that carry over to those who use a DAS?



Interesting thought ... a Disney vacation is more expensive now than ever it feels like.  Probably if I spent oodles to go and this was the only thing between me and a good vacation (paying for Genie+) I'd fork it over if there's any way I could squeeze some more nickels out of the purse.   I'm really on the fence about Genie+ but one thing I don't like its the paid aspect.


----------



## shawthorne44

To those that need a DAS and are considering not getting one for fear of judgement:  
That is on them. Feel sorry for those people that have so little going good in their lives. 

Those that get DAS as a way to scam the system (I don't think anyone here), they are truly pathetic. I am referring to those people personally known by someone else to be scamming. It is like disability in general. There are people that try to get on disability for the free money.


----------



## Sheri1912

We were unfortunately judged for my son having a DAS on our trip late July  My son is 4 years old and has Sensory Processing Disorder and ADHD. He has a lot of trouble standing in one place for long period of times and will meltdown if he's unable to run/walk out that nervous energy. Even worse, if he's forced to stand still for extended periods surrounded by people he doesn't know or in a large crowd he becomes physically aggressive and combative, with us and those around him. A group of adults waiting in line started yelling at us as were making our way onto Slinky Dog, saying there was nothing wrong with me or my "brat", we're walking fine so why do we get to skip the line. I ignored them but it hurts my heart to hear anyone saying things like that to my son. Luckily he's young enough that he didn't know or understand that they were referring to us. They obviously didn't understand the DAS system or what it's really about but it's those that don't understand how it works that judge. Or those that don't have anyone in their life who suffers from a "silent" disability.


----------



## Groot

Disneylvr said:


> I am glad I have never heard that while waiting in the guest services line with my daughter.  My reaction to those kind of parents would not be a good one.



Yeah, cuz the words that they used in real life I don’t feel comfortable typing on these forums.


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> or by doing what Sue mentioned earlier about tracking who is on the DAS with the DAS holder (never the same group twice over a period of time, etc.).  No idea what they have in mind, but by going from the DAS being a tool for equal access to a tool for preferred access, they're incentivizing the very abuse that they claimed they were trying to avoid when they won their lawsuit last year.



Why wouldn’t they be able to do the ride as often as they want? They will be waiting the standby time. It’s basically a virtual queue. If you want to stand in line over and over for a ride, no one blocks that. To me, a DAS is no different. It’s just a virtual queue.


----------



## CBMom01

MS_Warrior said:


> Why wouldn’t they be able to do the ride as often as they want? They will be waiting the standby time. It’s basically a virtual queue. If you want to stand in line over and over for a ride, no one blocks that. To me, a DAS is no different. It’s just a virtual queue.


Thats exactly right. I wonder if this is part of a larger plan to try to migrate toward hybrid virtual/physical queues.

The critics are 100% right: In theory someone csn abuse this to turn their physical wait into virtual wait. One ride at a time. My gut tells me that most people who think that will transform their park experience will realize it doesn‘t and they will have very little impact. And the few who have no guilt about it are probably abusing it already.

In other words,I believe most Disney visitors are decent people


----------



## OurBigTrip

MS_Warrior said:


> Why wouldn’t they be able to do the ride as often as they want? They will be waiting the standby time. It’s basically a virtual queue. If you want to stand in line over and over for a ride, no one blocks that. To me, a DAS is no different. It’s just a virtual queue.



I never said they shouldn’t be able to ride as often as they want to.  No idea where that came from.

Having said that, there is a difference…I can certainly line up over and over again for the same ride, but I can’t ride another ride while I’m in line.


----------



## MS_Warrior

CBMom01 said:


> Thats exactly right. I wonder if this is part of a larger plan to try to migrate toward hybrid virtual/physical queues.
> 
> The critics are 100% right: In theory someone csn abuse this to turn their physical wait into virtual wait. One ride at a time. My gut tells me that most people who think that will transform their park experience will realize it doesn‘t and they will have very little impact. And the few who have no guilt about it are probably abusing it already.
> 
> In other words,I believe most Disney visitors are decent people



I agree. It doesn’t give any advantage other than being able to wait in a different area.


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> I never said they shouldn’t be able to ride as often as they want to.  No idea where that came from.
> 
> Having said that, there is a difference…I can certainly line up over and over again for the same ride, but I can’t ride another ride while I’m in line.



Sure you can. The new Genie app - basic - not the one for purchase, allows for you to join a virtual queue.


----------



## OurBigTrip

MS_Warrior said:


> Sure you can. The new Genie app - basic - not the one for purchase, allows for you to join a virtual queue.


As can DAS users, so you can actually be in three lines at once.
DAS Return time
Virtual queue
Actual line for another attraction


----------



## MS_Warrior

OurBigTrip said:


> As can DAS users, so you can actually be in three lines at once.
> DAS Return time
> Virtual queue
> Actual line for another attraction



And managing to get to all of those rides would be next to impossible - not to mention confusing. Since it’s not actually in effect, we don’t know the details, but I seriously doubt anyone will be able to be in more than one virtual queue - If using a DAS, I doubt the app will allow a 2nd virtual queue until the time for the DAS queue has expired. 

We won’t know until it actually happens and someone who uses a DAS tells us. However, even if they allow it, I would hate to see Disney make it even harder on those who are disabled just because someone might cheat.

I don’t use a DAS, but I have disabilities and use a wheelchair. The parks are more exhausting and harder to navigate when you have a disability. Until you’ve been there, you don’t get how hard it is. I know. I once walked the parks and stayed from rope drop to goodnight kiss. 

Now, I’m lucky if I’m there for half a day. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had a Fast Pass and haven’t been able to use it. Not to mention a lot of rides I no longer do because either they, or the queue is too difficult.


----------



## Meglen

Who has this kinda energy to worry about other people's day? If someone is cheating the system Disney will handle it. If not than nothing I can do. Let karma handle it in the end.


----------



## shawthorne44

Sheri1912 said:


> A group of adults waiting in line started yelling at us as were making our way onto Slinky Dog, saying there was nothing wrong with me or my "brat", we're walking fine so why do we get to skip the line.



This bothered me, and have been thinking about it.  If someone yelled abuse at other people in Disney, they should be kicked out.    Think about if they were yelling racial slurs.    Yelling insults at a disabled kid is worse.  

I can see how as the parent, you wouldn't want to draw your kid's attention to the turds.   I am someone that needs social plans.    I just made a plan to report to a CM if I see that happen.   Maybe say something directly to them.


----------



## Sheri1912

shawthorne44 said:


> This bothered me, and have been thinking about it.  If someone yelled abuse at other people in Disney, they should be kicked out.    Think about if they were yelling racial slurs.    Yelling insults at a disabled kid is worse.
> 
> I can see how as the parent, you wouldn't want to draw your kid's attention to the turds.   I am someone that needs social plans.    I just made a plan to report to a CM if I see that happen.   Maybe say something directly to them.


Honestly I was kind of taken aback by it. Under normal circumstances I would have addressed the issue in some way but we were nearing the end of our visit at that park (kiddo can only take about 4 hours of fun and excitement at a time before he needs to regroup/quiet time). We were hot and my 9 month old was waiting to eat so I let it go in that moment. Had it happened earlier in the day I probably would have gone mama bear on them.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Sheri1912 said:


> Honestly I was kind of taken aback by it. Under normal circumstances I would have addressed the issue in some way but we were nearing the end of our visit at that park (kiddo can only take about 4 hours of fun and excitement at a time before he needs to regroup/quiet time). We were hot and my 9 month old was waiting to eat so I let it go in that moment. Had it happened earlier in the day I probably would have gone mama bear on them.



People like that wouldn’t care what was said and they’d probably deny having said anything if confronted by a CM. Unfortunately, with disabilities, we seem to encounter the worst of the worst. 

There will always be those who are jealous that someone might get something they didn’t. They don’t care that you get a return time and don’t get shoved to the head of the line automatically. No matter how many times you explain how it works, they’ll still swear DAS holders/WC users get to go to the front of the line without waiting.

Sometimes I think ignoring them is for the best. They aren’t worth the time and energy.


----------



## Bianca and Bernard

MS_Warrior said:


> Sure you can. The new Genie app - basic - not the one for purchase, allows for you to join a virtual queue.



The Basic app will have virutal queues for select attractions...RoTR and Remy's. It won't be for any other attractions. it's for restaurant reservations, scoping out lines and wait times...  Everyone has access to this.  

Genie + will be like FP; it has a cost per person, and not all attractions will be accessable.

IAS (individual attraction selections), which is for 2 attractions a day, out of a small pool of attractions; will cost money and the price will vary depending on the day and other factors.

Lightning Lanes are the old FP lanes.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Bianca and Bernard said:


> The Basic app will have virutal queues for select attractions...RoTR and Remy's. It won't be for any other attractions. it's for restaurant reservations, scoping out lines and wait times...  Everyone has access to this.
> 
> Genie + will be like FP; it has a cost per person, and not all attractions will be accessable.
> 
> IAS (individual attraction selections), which is for 2 attractions a day, out of a small pool of attractions; will cost money and the price will vary depending on the day and other factors.
> 
> Lightning Lanes are the old FP lanes.



I stand corrected. The article I read didn't say it was limited to those two rides.

However, I would still hate to see Disney make this an even harder challenge for those who need the DAS because someone might cheat. They've made it as fair as possible,  and I would rather a cheater get away with something than a family stay home because it's nearly impossible to manage.


----------



## OnlyDisney

I don't understand people thinking they can tell who "really" needs DAS or a mobility device just by looking at them.  Obviously they have never experienced life with someone with any kind of disability.  *But it shouldn't take personal experience to show empathy*.  Just like in all aspects of life, you never know what someone has to deal with so why not just be kind.  Sure some people will try to game the system (any system), but that should have no effect on how YOU treat people.  

We've used DAS for years -first for my son and recently for myself too - and now that we're local we use it at least weekly.  Luckily I've never noticed anyone making snide remarks about us using it, but, then again, I'm hard of hearing so who knows what I've missed over the years.

I look like an overweight middle age woman.  I use a rollator every time I go to the park, unless I use my scooter.  I hang my popcorn bucket off one handle and most time I have a cooler lunch bag on the seat that holds our lunch and some water bottles.  Myself and my kids each have a bag we carry.  I make them carry their bags in the morning, but later in the day I'll let them put the bag on the seat.  You catch us on a cooler day when we start the day with a sweater and even more can be piled on my walker.  I'm sure some people just assume I use the walker to carry our stuff.  

Then there are the days I use a scooter.  I really should use a scooter more but have multiple health issues one of which makes it hard to walk and one of which makes it hard to sit.  Now that my kids are older I can walk a bit while they drive the scooter.  I'm sure people think the worst when they see us switch.  I have a cane on those days but it doesn't help as much as using the walker.  
*I just had an idea - I could now take both my walker and my scooter. I could switch between the two during the day as needed with a child (or my husband on those rare times he can join us) taking over for the one I'm not using. Can you imagine the looks our family would get?*

As for using the DAS and getting right on the rides. That's never happened for us unless it's a 5-10 minute standby line. Same with the wheelchair return time.

How about we all just stop worrying that people may be cheating.  Disney's system works pretty well.  And you absolutely cannot tell if someone needs a DAS or mobility device just by looking.  Even if you think they are 100% cheating you could be 100% wrong.


----------



## fabfemmeboy

OurBigTrip said:


> As can DAS users, so you can actually be in three lines at once.
> DAS Return time
> Virtual queue
> Actual line for another attraction



...4 actually .  If you have a mobility aid and the path isn't accessible, they'll give you a "guest return time."  The two I see most commonly at WDW are HM and BTMRR.  DL has more because it has more inaccessible queues.  Though the likelihood of having a guest return time and virtual queue is very low because the only rides with virtual queues currently are at DHS and EPCOT (once Rataouille starts), neither of which have attractions that I'm aware of giving guest return times.  But now that ROTR boarding groups have been going much later in the day (e.g. after hopping begins), you could conceivably have all 4 at once now.


----------



## OnlyDisney

fabfemmeboy said:


> ...4 actually .  If you have a mobility aid and the path isn't accessible, they'll give you a "guest return time."  The two I see most commonly at WDW are HM and BTMRR.  DL has more because it has more inaccessible queues.  Though the likelihood of having a guest return time and virtual queue is very low because the only rides with virtual queues currently are at DHS and EPCOT (once Rataouille starts), neither of which have attractions that I'm aware of giving guest return times.  But now that ROTR boarding groups have been going much later in the day (e.g. after hopping begins), you could conceivably have all 4 at once now.



For the wheel chair return time/mobility return time there's also Space Mountain in Magic Kingdom and Star Tours at Hollywood Studios and Space Ship Earth at Epcot.


----------



## DisneyOma

MS_Warrior said:


> Sure you can. The new Genie app - basic - not the one for purchase, allows for you to join a virtual queue.





OurBigTrip said:


> As can DAS users, so you can actually be in three lines at once.
> DAS Return time
> Virtual queue
> Actual line for another attraction





fabfemmeboy said:


> ...4 actually .  If you have a mobility aid and the path isn't accessible, they'll give you a "guest return time."  The two I see most commonly at WDW are HM and BTMRR.  DL has more because it has more inaccessible queues.  Though the likelihood of having a guest return time and virtual queue is very low because the only rides with virtual queues currently are at DHS and EPCOT (once Rataouille starts), neither of which have attractions that I'm aware of giving guest return times.  But now that ROTR boarding groups have been going much later in the day (e.g. after hopping begins), you could conceivably have all 4 at once now.



And all the DAS does is add _*one*_ more ability to all these lists. Plus, one can only get one virtual queue spot a day, right?


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyOma said:


> And all the DAS does is add _*one*_ more ability to all these lists. Plus, one can only get one virtual queue spot a day, right?



Yes, one BG/VQ for rides like ROTR and assume Remy.  You are correct that DAS does give one extra option that others don't have. And, TBH, I am not even sure that many DAS users go all day, every day, with a return time scheduled.

I use it when I know we want to do something and the wait is longer than I can manage that day.  There have been park times when I didn't need to use it at all because things were slow enough to manage without needing it.

So, even that one extra isn't a given for everyone.


----------



## fabfemmeboy

OnlyDisney said:


> For the wheel chair return time/mobility return time there's also Space Mountain in Magic Kingdom and Star Tours at Hollywood Studios and Space Ship Earth at Epcot.



SSE never has a long enough wait when we go to give a return time, but how could I have forgotten Star Tours? We ride it nonstop! ::


----------



## SueM in MN

fabfemmeboy said:


> SSE never has a long enough wait when we go to give a return time, but how could I have forgotten Star Tours? We ride it nonstop! ::


----------



## Aladora

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.





ttintagel said:


> All standby queues are not created equal. Some are dark. Some are closed in while others are open-air. Some are configured so people are more single-file while others are built so they crowd together. Without knowing the specific needs of the person in question, you have no way of knowing which standby queues they are able to go through and which they aren’t.



I'm not finished reading this whole thread but had to jump in here and reply to this.

My son has used the GAC and DAS since his first trip in 2011. No matter the length of wait at Roger Rabbit, there was NO way he would enter the regular line even if there was absolutely no one else there.


----------



## CBMom01

Aladora said:


> I'm not finished reading this whole thread but had to jump in here and reply to this.
> 
> My son has used the GAC and DAS since his first trip in 2011. No matter the length of wait at Roger Rabbit, there was NO way he would enter the regular line even if there was absolutely no one else there.


Yep, and it's all trial and error.  More than once we've left standby lines never to return to that ride again - not even on future trips,  not even walk on.  I'm getting very frustrated with the people who believe DAS is a scam when they don't realize that for some kids the alternative isn't mere annoyance.  I'd guess 99% of us who use DAS have been driven to that customer service window because we've tried to do the parks without and had some genuinely awful outcomes.

 So if it's really important to some people to cheat, or judge, or whatever they want to do fine - just don't involve us.


----------



## Jake

I use a scooter at WDW. I can walk. Don’t use a scooter at home. Saying that I can not walk miles a day at WDW.  If I do I most likely not be able to walk the next day.  I don’t think it a advantage,  really not asking for that.  I just want to enjoy DW with out being in a lot of pain


----------



## PJ

We're local annual passholders and it was actually 2 CM's who convinced us it was ok to apply for the DAS for my husband's back issues.  Early this year (long b4 we knew FP was going away) I was telling a CM at a guest experience tent that if they didn't resume FPs I wasn't sure we'd renew our APs since he can't stand in a line for more than 25 min max before his back goes. They suggested the DAS, but I resisted since it wasnt what I considered a "disability" and I didn't want to take advantage. They assured me that inability to stand in a line was part of the purpose. This has made all the difference for us! That said, I'm glad he already has it because I suspect there will be an increase in requests, and not all legitimate.


----------



## DisneyOma

PJ said:


> We're local annual passholders and it was actually 2 CM's who convinced us it was ok to apply for the DAS for my husband's back issues.  Early this year (long b4 we knew FP was going away) I was telling a CM at a guest experience tent that if they didn't resume FPs I wasn't sure we'd renew our APs since he can't stand in a line for more than 25 min max before his back goes. They suggested the DAS, but I resisted since it wasnt what I considered a "disability" and I didn't want to take advantage. They assured me that inability to stand in a line was part of the purpose. This has made all the difference for us! That said, I'm glad he already has it because I suspect there will be an increase in requests, and not all legitimate.



They didn't ask if a scooter or wheelchair would work first? If not, this could be a problem in the future - CMs not being consistent about who/why the DAS is given out?


----------



## PJ

DisneyOma said:


> They didn't ask if a scooter or wheelchair would work first? If not, this could be a problem in the future - CMs not being consistent about who/why the DAS is given out?


No they didn't. He can walk fine - he just can't be stationery - even in a slow moving line.  A friend had inquired about a pass (also early this year) because of trouble walking. They turned him down because this doesn't save walking - at the that time you had to walk to the attraction, get a return time, then leave and walk back.  And as you said, scooter or wheelchair is an option if walking us an issue. Not sure how it would work if you had one just for standing in lines.


----------



## Alan1972

ellataylor said:


> These are the kind of posts that put me off using a DAS for fear of judgement. Clearly no understanding of different needs, different disabilities and how they are affected by differing environments. Plus a person who spends time on their vacation focusing on other people’s line habits.


My sister uses the pass and looks 100% "normal" not physically disabled,no obvious problems,often goes to the park sans husband and kids,I asked her if anyone ever said something to her or made comments.

she said not once ever and if they ever did she wouldn't give a remy's back end.

She doesnt think people really know what is going on and assume she is employee or returning ride switch parent or something.


----------



## DisneyOma

PJ said:


> No they didn't. He can walk fine - he just can't be stationery - even in a slow moving line.  A friend had inquired about a pass (also early this year) because of trouble walking. They turned him down because this doesn't save walking - at the that time you had to walk to the attraction, get a return time, then leave and walk back.  And as you said, scooter or wheelchair is an option if walking us an issue. Not sure how it would work if you had one just for standing in lines.



I'm sorry but I don't understand this - are you saying he can't sit at all, that he walks all day?  I do see that in another post here you said he has a 25 minute limit on standing still, is that all at once or cumulative? I know I sound frustrated - I want you to know it's not at you or your husband, and I hope he finds relief for his back (my dad had to have discs fused it got so bad for him).My frustration is aimed at the CMs who suggested the DAS for a mobility issue. This is the road the GAC went down, IMO, and that ended the GAC.


----------



## OurBigTrip

DisneyOma said:


> I'm sorry but I don't understand this - are you saying he can't sit at all, that he walks all day?  I do see that in another post here you said he has a 25 minute limit on standing still, is that all at once or cumulative? I know I sound frustrated - I want you to know it's not at you or your husband, and I hope he finds relief for his back (my dad had to have discs fused it got so bad for him).My frustration is aimed at the CMs who suggested the DAS for a mobility issue. This is the road the GAC went down, IMO, and that ended the GAC.


Exactly!   From the beginning of DAS, it wasn’t about not being able to stand in line, it was about not being able to wait in line, which are two different things.


----------



## PJ

OurBigTrip said:


> Exactly!   From the beginning of DAS, it wasn’t about not being able to stand in line, it was about not being able to wait in line, which are two different things.


I attached the wrong quote- it's DisneyOma I was responding to. It sounds like you're suggesting that because he can walk he should use a wheelchair or scooter for just when we need to stand in a line?  I can appreciate the frustration of those dealing with much more significant challenges, but his issue is serious enough that we we're literally going to the parks this year and doing nothing but walking around and eating. We're not jumping to the head of a line, we're not getting on rides any faster than those standing in line. And we did not talk CMs into this - it was 2 different CMs who convinced us that it was ok to use it for this. I'm kinda sorry I brought this up.


----------



## DisneyOma

PJ said:


> I attached the wrong quote- it's DisneyOma I was responding to. It sounds like you're suggesting that because he can walk he should use a wheelchair or scooter for just when we need to stand in a line?  I can appreciate the frustration of those dealing with much more significant challenges, but his issue is serious enough that we we're literally going to the parks this year and doing nothing but walking around and eating. We're not jumping to the head of a line, we're not getting on rides any faster than those standing in line. And we did not talk CMs into this - it was 2 different CMs who convinced us that it was ok to use it for this. I'm kinda sorry I brought this up.



Please don't be sorry, it's not your fault - I'm frustrated that the CMs didn't suggest the use of a wheelchair for when he can't stand. There's nothing wrong with having to use one, and if it eliminates the issues he has in the queue then he should be using one instead of the DAS. If I could block out every person in front of me and behind me, and the noises and close walls (the plexiglass made things so bad this trip!) I'd be in the standard queues more as well. I used DAS for the first time this trip and only had to use First Aid once to do my therapies. Trip before that I ended up in the ER, by way of ambulance. If using a wheelchair in queues would eliminate my need to use DAS, I'd use the wheelchair. If I could get my heated/vibrating seat to work on a wheelchair, then it might actually be the fix! But I'm not mad/blaming you at all. I just wish the CMs were consistent and didn't suggest DAS for mobility issues without suggesting a mobility device/seat first.


----------



## TwoMisfits

DisneyOma said:


> Please don't be sorry, it's not your fault - I'm frustrated that the CMs didn't suggest the use of a wheelchair for when he can't stand. There's nothing wrong with having to use one, and if it eliminates the issues he has in the queue then he should be using one instead of the DAS. If I could block out every person in front of me and behind me, and the noises and close walls (the plexiglass made things so bad this trip!) I'd be in the standard queues more as well. I used DAS for the first time this trip and only had to use First Aid once to do my therapies. Trip before that I ended up in the ER, by way of ambulance. If using a wheelchair in queues would eliminate my need to use DAS, I'd use the wheelchair. If I could get my heated/vibrating seat to work on a wheelchair, then it might actually be the fix! But I'm not mad/blaming you at all. I just wish the CMs were consistent and didn't suggest DAS for mobility issues without suggesting a mobility device/seat first.



And this is probably why they are taking these decisions out of the hands of the CMs and onto the online crew...


----------



## MS_Warrior

PJ said:


> I attached the wrong quote- it's DisneyOma I was responding to. It sounds like you're suggesting that because he can walk he should use a wheelchair or scooter for just when we need to stand in a line?  I can appreciate the frustration of those dealing with much more significant challenges, but his issue is serious enough that we we're literally going to the parks this year and doing nothing but walking around and eating. We're not jumping to the head of a line, we're not getting on rides any faster than those standing in line. And we did not talk CMs into this - it was 2 different CMs who convinced us that it was ok to use it for this. I'm kinda sorry I brought this up.


Even if you used the DAS and rode rides, you still wouldn’t skip lines since it gives you a return time, not a pass to the head of the line.


----------



## DisneyOma

TwoMisfits said:


> And this is probably why they are taking these decisions out of the hands of the CMs and onto the online crew...



There is a choice to do either online or at the parks for the DAS, so not sure that will make it more consistent or less.


----------



## overdisney

Like everything people will abuse something designed to help people really in need because they are self centered and have a me first attitude which ruins it for those truly in need.  Sad commentary on society.


----------



## TwoMisfits

DisneyOma said:


> There is a choice to do either online or at the parks for the DAS, so not sure that will make it more consistent or less.



It will be more consistent, b/c the CMs in the CS line, for anything borderline, will probably say no and to use the online group if they'd like to provide additional support or info for their need (and since there will be fewer in line, this will be easier to do b/c no one waited an hour to get their no).  And no CM in park is gonna be in the "suggest a DAS" mode.  Corporate will say to them it's now on the customer to ask, and they have given everyone notice of that and the opportunity to ask.


----------



## DisneyOma

TwoMisfits said:


> It will be more consistent, b/c the CMs in the CS line, for anything borderline, will probably say no and to use the online group if they'd like to provide additional support or info for their need (and since there will be fewer in line, this will be easier to do b/c no one waited an hour to get their no).  And no CM in park is gonna be in the "suggest a DAS" mode.  Corporate will say to them it's now on the customer to ask, and they have given everyone notice of that and the opportunity to ask.



Is this speculation or fact? Because on the DAS sticky this was posted by DLGal:

So, wanted to share some info I got from a Guest Relations CM yesterday when we established DAS on our new Magic Key (annual pass at DL). We had a pretty lengthy conversation about Disney Genie and DAS changes.

The takeaways were:

1. Guest Relations CMs have gotten NO information about the new DAS program other than Disney's official public announcement

2. GR CM's have NO idea when Genie will be launching. They have heard NOTHING.

3. GR CM's expect to be trained on the new DAS implementation MAYBE a day in advance, if they are lucky. She told me that Disney is really bad about giving them information/training in advance and most of the time when changes come, they find out day of or maybe a day early.

4. It is unknown at this time whether once Genie launches, if people who have an ACTIVE DAS at the time with a 60 day length (for annual passes) will have to re enroll inside of the 60 days or if it will carry over. So, we have DAS that is good through Nov 4. If Genie launches between now and then, she was not sure if we would have to re enroll or not.

5. Basically, they know as much as we do and have a lot of the same questions, so reaching out and trying to get clarification about how the new DAS system will work is pointless at this time, because they literally have not been given any information.


----------



## TwoMisfits

DisneyOma said:


> Is this speculation or fact?



Speculation that can probably be assumed to be fact...
The CS line will be shorter for DAS b/c many folks will have taken care of it online.
Since there is an online option, just like everything else at Disney, they will encourage folks to use it if possible and make not using it less than pleasant (has anyone waited on those reservation phone lines vs doing online reservations lately?)
And with the online option, Disney is putting the money in to standardize this already, so they'll pass what the online folks have to onsite folks, and probably say "when you don't know, just refer to online".


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## DisneyOma

TwoMisfits said:


> Speculation that can probably be assumed to be fact...
> The CS line will be shorter for DAS b/c many folks will have taken care of it online.
> Since there is an online option, just like everything else at Disney, they will encourage folks to use it if possible and make not using it less than pleasant (has anyone waited on those reservation phone lines vs doing online reservations lately?)
> And with the online option, Disney is putting the money in to standardize this already, so they'll pass what the online folks have to onsite folks, and probably say "when you don't know, just refer to online".



We must have been posting at the same time, LOL - see my above post for more info.


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## Tiberella626

Welsh_Dragon said:


> In the U.K. we seem to largely minimise the risk of abuse by allowing organisations to request that anyone seeking assistance presents proof of registered disability. This usually also allows a carer to enter free of charge.


I wish we could do this in the states. I understand why, but as a family with invisible issues it would be nice to not have the anxiety about making sure the cast member understands. Just here is my medical note would be simpler and it would keep out away more cheats.

We have been in a situation before on our first family trip where a Delta agent took other people in front of us because no one in our party is in a wheel chair even though we were in the special services line. We were also asked "so what is wrong with you?" Both to enter the line and once we reached the counter. I explained and was accommodated but I felt uncomfortable and small after that interaction.


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## Sandisw

PJ said:


> I attached the wrong quote- it's DisneyOma I was responding to. It sounds like you're suggesting that because he can walk he should use a wheelchair or scooter for just when we need to stand in a line?  I can appreciate the frustration of those dealing with much more significant challenges, but his issue is serious enough that we we're literally going to the parks this year and doing nothing but walking around and eating. We're not jumping to the head of a line, we're not getting on rides any faster than those standing in line. And we did not talk CMs into this - it was 2 different CMs who convinced us that it was ok to use it for this. I'm kinda sorry I brought this up.



Don’t be! I agree and understand completely because my issue is very similar to your husbands.  Using a scooter…which I tried…did not help which is why I went and discussed things with them to see my options.

Some days, my issue is such that even riding certain rides is impossible so I have to skip them and wait elsewhere while my family does them.


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## MS_Warrior

Sandisw said:


> Don’t be! I agree and understand completely because my issue is very similar to your husbands.  Using a scooter…which I tried…did not help which is why I went and discussed things with them to see my options.
> 
> Some days, my issue is such that even riding certain rides is impossible so I have to skip them and wait elsewhere while my family does them.



Yes! Just because you can walk, doesn’t mean you can stand or sit for extended periods of time without excruciating pain. I think those who haven’t been in your situations or had loved ones in those situations don’t get it at all.


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## Lilsia

Tiberella626 said:


> I wish we could do this in the states. I understand why, but as a family with invisible issues it would be nice to not have the anxiety about making sure the cast member understands. Just here is my medical note would be simpler and it would keep out away more cheats.
> 
> We have been in a situation before on our first family trip where a Delta agent took other people in front of us because no one in our party is in a wheel chair even though we were in the special services line. We were also asked "so what is wrong with you?" Both to enter the line and once we reached the counter. I explained and was accommodated but I felt uncomfortable and small after that interaction.



I don't think that you understand how strict they are in the UK and EU. Most of the medical issues that Disney allows for DAS would not be considered a "disability" there. I have a legitimate medical issue that has to do with frequent and urgent bathroom issues. If I were to go to Disneyland Paris, I would not qualify for a DAS there.


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## karen4546

MS_Warrior said:


> Yes! Just because you can walk, doesn’t mean you can stand or sit for extended periods of time without excruciating pain. I think those who haven’t been in your situations or had loved ones in those situations don’t get it at all.


Totally agree.  My DH is 52. he can usually walk all day with no issues.  But, the standing stationary is what gets him.  People may think it is weird because he  sort of paces but that is because of the pain/pressure in his lower back.  
He has a golf ball size fatty tumor fused around his spine that causes this pain. Removal will be risky and not an option at this time. It is a benign tumor andhas not grown much in the last 10 yrs. he has never used the DAS. He just keeps moving. 
sadly, there are rides that He enjoyed when we first started going that he can’t ride anymore Without paying the price.   Space Mountain, Dinosaur, and RNRC.


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## MS_Warrior

Tiberella626 said:


> I wish we could do this in the states. I understand why, but as a family with invisible issues it would be nice to not have the anxiety about making sure the cast member understands. Just here is my medical note would be simpler and it would keep out away more cheats.
> 
> We have been in a situation before on our first family trip where a Delta agent took other people in front of us because no one in our party is in a wheel chair even though we were in the special services line. We were also asked "so what is wrong with you?" Both to enter the line and once we reached the counter. I explained and was accommodated but I felt uncomfortable and small after that interaction.



Most airlines take the wheelchairs first before any of the others who are preboarding because they have to stow the wheelchairs once the person is in the plane. If you are able to walk, you are generally boarded after the wheelchairs. I’ve seen this on Southwest, American, and a few others. Even when in Canada, they boarded the wheelchairs first. I think it’s quicker for them to take care of the wheelchairs first, then allow those who can walk board while they deal with the chairs.


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## MS_Warrior

karen4546 said:


> Totally agree.  My DH is 52. he can usually walk all day with no issues.  But, the standing stationary is what gets him.  People may think it is weird because he  sort of paces but that is because of the pain/pressure in his lower back.
> He has a golf ball size fatty tumor fused around his spine that causes this pain. Removal will be risky and not an option at this time. It is a benign tumor andhas not grown much in the last 10 yrs. he has never used the DAS. He just keeps moving.
> sadly, there are rides that He enjoyed when we first started going that he can’t ride anymore Without paying the price.   Space Mountain, Dinosaur, and RNRC.



I understand perfectly. My issues are mobility, but I’ve had family members with issues where they couldn’t stand and sit. I’m sorry about the tumor. I’ve had one that’s been removed a couple of times, but wasn’t fused to the spine. That would be a risky situation. To me, your husband is the type that needs the DAS and should get it with no shame.


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## Tiberella626

MS_Warrior said:


> Most airlines take the wheelchairs first before any of the others who are preboarding because they have to stow the wheelchairs once the person is in the plane. If you are able to walk, you are generally boarded after the wheelchairs. I’ve seen this on Southwest, American, and a few others. Even when in Canada, they boarded the wheelchairs first. I think it’s quicker for them to take care of the wheelchairs first, then allow those who can walk board while they deal with the chairs.


This was at the ticket counter, not boarding, sorry I was not specific.


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## MS_Warrior

Tiberella626 said:


> This was at the ticket counter, not boarding, sorry I was not specific.



Ah! Usually here it’s first come, first served. Of course, if you cannot wait in the line for some reason, you can call TSA beforehand. They will make arrangements with you to call them when you arrive and they walk you through all of the process. At least at our airport that is what has happened.


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## ttintagel

TwoMisfits said:


> The CS line will be shorter for DAS b/c many folks will have taken care of it online.
> Since there is an online option, just like everything else at Disney, they will encourage folks to use it if possible and make not using it less than pleasant (has anyone waited on those reservation phone lines vs doing online reservations lately?)



This is my hope. I think that when lines are long at GR, some CMs probably feel under pressure to give either a quick “no” or a quick “yes,” without putting enough consideration into it, just to keep the line moving.

I’m certain that this is also the reason for some of the times I’ve been denied accommodations for things that are handled outside of the DAS system, because the CM on duty at the attraction just had too many other guests to deal with at the time.


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## Lottelicious

I personally wish they asked the details and people had to show up with proof. The DAS, like the one at Universal (who is way stricter and I applaud them) is not for mobility issues.
And yes, people abuse it just like parking. I’ve seen contractor, with ladders et al, parking at Home Depot in handicap. So you can’t walk the extra steps in a parking lot but can carry a ladder and climb??
Yesterday, at Epcot, a family parked in the wheelchair ramp area. I even took a photo and no one did anything. 
I have MS and have difficult walking. Great! I own my own pride ecv and now Fold & Go to go out to eat. Guess what? I shouldn’t get a DAS for that!!
Yes, I need assistance loading, swap to a wave at rides that have it, but it’s my bowel issues to why I can’t “risk” being stuck in the middle of a 45min queue with no way to rush out.


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## olwyngdh

Lottelicious said:


> I personally wish they asked the details and people had to show up with proof. The DAS, like the one at Universal (who is way stricter and I applaud them) is not for mobility issues.
> And yes, people abuse it just like parking. I’ve seen contractor, with ladders et al, parking at Home Depot in handicap. So you can’t walk the extra steps in a parking lot but can carry a ladder and climb??
> Yesterday, at Epcot, a family parked in the wheelchair ramp area. I even took a photo and no one did anything.
> I have MS and have difficult walking. Great! I own my own pride ecv and now Fold & Go to go out to eat. Guess what? I shouldn’t get a DAS for that!!
> Yes, I need assistance loading, swap to a wave at rides that have it, but it’s my bowel issues to why I can’t “risk” being stuck in the middle of a 45min queue with no way to rush out.



I feel weird having a DAS because I had, until my last Disney trip, thought that my issues could be handled with only a scooter. I own my own, I use it to have a semblance of normal life and be able to go shopping, to the zoo, and to museums. I have used one at Disney for years and never thought that my added issues would need the added accommodations until a white shirted cast member sent me to GR to get one while I was in line for Haunted Mansion. I got half a sentence out of my mouth along with showing the CM at GR my 2 remotes before he said no problem, let me get your picture. It seems Disney doesn't want me lifting my shirt or reaching inside my bra to access/activate my medical devices where children and others are forced to see me. Could I do it while waiting in line? Yes, I did it before the CM sent me to get one. Is it easier not to? Oh yes! I no longer have to try to hide in a crowd, I no longer have to make sure there are no children in the line who can see me because some idiot would be sure to think something sexual about me reaching into my bra. It is a big psychological relief and definitely reduces my anxiety. You and I are both examples of why just a mobility device isn't always the answer. Am I worried about getting one with the new system? Yea, I am. If I don't though, I will go back to taking care of things in line until another white shirt intervenes.


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## PJ

MS_Warrior said:


> Yes! Just because you can walk, doesn’t mean you can stand or sit for extended periods of time without excruciating pain. I think those who haven’t been in your situations or had loved ones in those situations don’t get it at all.


If we stop to visit while walking our dog, after 15 minutes he apologizes because he has to keep moving. So it's not just theme parks where this an issue.


----------



## MS_Warrior

PJ said:


> If we stop to visit while walking our dog, after 15 minutes he apologizes because he has to keep moving. So it's not just theme parks where this an issue.



Yeah, those of us who have issues, don’t just have them at a theme park. Unfortunately, people who’ve never been in our shoes don’t really understand.


----------



## Yinn

Lottelicious said:


> but it’s my bowel issues to why I can’t “risk” being stuck in the middle of a 45min queue with no way to rush out.



We had this debate at home prior to our last trip.  Newly diagnosed similar type of issue and we went back and forth on whether to even attempt for a DAS.  We felt like it was legitimate, if we could wait by a bathroom it would be great.  

But what bugged us was - what's the keep every potty training parent (including us) to ask for a DAS because the toddler is out of diapers but doesn't have a big enough bladder to hold it for an hour?  The best answer amongst ourselves was that the toddler would technically be able to go back into pull ups.  But, an adult could technically wear adult diapers.  Sure there's the humiliation, discomfort, etc.  But that all applies to a 3-4 year old as well.  

It was a tough debate amongst just ourselves, and yes we found ourselves leaving multiple lines because our toddler needed the restroom.  Disney does a pretty good job at letting you back in, but it is extremely difficult to get a cast members attention sometimes.  

What we found if you are stuck, take a direct path out.  That usually gets a cast members attention.  If it doesn't and you get back out just go to the rider swap/DAS/FP area and tell them you left the line because you/someone in your party needed to use the facilities.  They will give you a return time.  Worst case, even CM in character will do the right things.

We had to leave the line urgently during slinky dog, frozen, test track, speedway, dumbo, mine train, runaway railway, smugglers run, even rise of the resistance!!  That one was the most difficult and got us a backstage tour to some of the most pristine bathrooms we've ever seen.


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## CBMom01

Being a toddler is not a disability. The answer to “what’s to stop us?” :  basic human decency


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## magicalfoursome

Yinn said:


> We had this debate at home prior to our last trip.  Newly diagnosed similar type of issue and we went back and forth on whether to even attempt for a DAS.  We felt like it was legitimate, if we could wait by a bathroom it would be great.
> 
> But what bugged us was - what's the keep every potty training parent (including us) to ask for a DAS because the toddler is out of diapers but doesn't have a big enough bladder to hold it for an hour?  The best answer amongst ourselves was that the toddler would technically be able to go back into pull ups.  But, an adult could technically wear adult diapers.  Sure there's the humiliation, discomfort, etc.  But that all applies to a 3-4 year old as well.
> 
> It was a tough debate amongst just ourselves, and yes we found ourselves leaving multiple lines because our toddler needed the restroom.  Disney does a pretty good job at letting you back in, but it is extremely difficult to get a cast members attention sometimes.
> 
> What we found if you are stuck, take a direct path out.  That usually gets a cast members attention.  If it doesn't and you get back out just go to the rider swap/DAS/FP area and tell them you left the line because you/someone in your party needed to use the facilities.  They will give you a return time.  Worst case, even CM in character will do the right things.
> 
> We had to leave the line urgently during slinky dog, frozen, test track, speedway, dumbo, mine train, runaway railway, smugglers run, even rise of the resistance!!  That one was the most difficult and got us a backstage tour to some of the most pristine bathrooms we've ever seen.


I don’t think it is fair to compare a toddler wearing a pull-up and an adult wearing a depends. Anyone can have an urge to go to the bathroom in line but we all can’t get a DAS. The DAS is for an accommodation for a disability and potty training is not a disability. Taking a toddler to the restroom before getting in line is a good idea. Also, waiting in such a long line can be pretty boring, so maybe leaving to go to the bathroom might seem like a fun idea for a toddler. I am not saying your child didn’t need the bathroom,  but every hour seems like a lot.


----------



## Yinn

CBMom01 said:


> Being a toddler is not a disability. The answer to “what’s to stop us?” :  basic human decency



I think you’re missing the point. I’m not trying to argue that a toddler is a disability.

But some disabilities can lead to “need quick access to use the bathroom” which my DW has.

But what’s the difference between my wife needing to use it and my toddler needing to use it? Different root cause but same circumstance. 

Please don’t take this as I’m arguing for a toddler to be a DAS. I’m not.  

But what we were discussing is feeling bad about getting and using the DAS for my DW when she actually needed less frequent access to the bathroom than my toddler did. If we can leave a line for him we could surely leave one for her right?

We honestly didn’t think we would be given one given that thought process as that didn’t make sense to us and we were honest with that when we went up to guest services. But the whole time we couldn’t help but feel the glares. Perhaps it was self conscious but I could just hear the mumbling about how it’s just a bathroom issue. 



magicalfoursome said:


> . I am not saying your child didn’t need the bathroom,  but every hour seems like a lot.



We took our toddler prior to entering every line. With my DWs DAS, we still had to leave quite often for him to use the facilities while we were waiting in the shortened return line.  With frequent hydration in 100+ temps it was not uncommon for him to need to go 15 minutes after going already.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Yinn said:


> We had this debate at home prior to our last trip.  Newly diagnosed similar type of issue and we went back and forth on whether to even attempt for a DAS.  We felt like it was legitimate, if we could wait by a bathroom it would be great.
> 
> But what bugged us was - what's the keep every potty training parent (including us) to ask for a DAS because the toddler is out of diapers but doesn't have a big enough bladder to hold it for an hour?  The best answer amongst ourselves was that the toddler would technically be able to go back into pull ups.  But, an adult could technically wear adult diapers.  Sure there's the humiliation, discomfort, etc.  But that all applies to a 3-4 year old as well.
> 
> It was a tough debate amongst just ourselves, and yes we found ourselves leaving multiple lines because our toddler needed the restroom.  Disney does a pretty good job at letting you back in, but it is extremely difficult to get a cast members attention sometimes.
> 
> What we found if you are stuck, take a direct path out.  That usually gets a cast members attention.  If it doesn't and you get back out just go to the rider swap/DAS/FP area and tell them you left the line because you/someone in your party needed to use the facilities.  They will give you a return time.  Worst case, even CM in character will do the right things.
> 
> We had to leave the line urgently during slinky dog, frozen, test track, speedway, dumbo, mine train, runaway railway, smugglers run, even rise of the resistance!!  That one was the most difficult and got us a backstage tour to some of the most pristine bathrooms we've ever seen.



People are generally quite a tolerant for a toddler with an accident. However, and adult who ”looks fine” having an accident in line would be far more humiliating. Not to mention staying in line with soiled garments for an adult would be very humiliating.  Most toddlers aren’t humiliated.

You’re comparing apples and oranges. Those with a bowel issue, generally have other issues. Those other issues may make it very difficult to get out of line and try to get back in. Most would give up once they got out of line.


----------



## Yinn

MS_Warrior said:


> People are generally quite a tolerance for a toddler with an accident. However, and adult who ”looks fine” having an accident in line would be far more humiliating. Not to mention staying in line with soiled garments for an adult would be very humiliating.  Most toddlers aren’t humiliated.
> 
> You’re comparing apples and oranges. Those with a bowel issue, generally have other issues. Those other issues may make it very difficult to get out of line and try to get back in. Most would give up once they got out of line.



It absolutely is 100% apples and oranges. The title and purpose of the thread is abuse right? Or perceived abuse.

I have a mobility issue that is not apparent. My DW has a new diagnosis that is not visible that does make her eligible for a DAS.

We’re VERY aware and probably hypersensitive to how it might seem when a young family strolls on up kids in tow with no apparent visual cues. 

Hence why we had the discussion.  We have been extremely reluctant to utilize any of the assistance so far (until the last trip) whether it be a scooter, a handicap spot, or a DAS.

But given some of the accusations in this thread, why wouldnt we consider someone trying to argue that it’s the same about this?  That’s probably just us being hypersensitive about it.


----------



## DisneyOma

Yinn said:


> We took our toddler prior to entering every line. With my DWs DAS, we still had to leave quite often for him to use the facilities while we were waiting in the shortened return line.  With frequent hydration in 100+ temps it was not uncommon for him to need to go 15 minutes after going already.



This is why we didn't start toilet training until after one of our WDW trips. I was worried about bedwetting, accidents in line or on the bus, etc. I know some people don't have that flexibility, but we figured it just made more sense to wait.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Yinn said:


> It absolutely is 100% apples and oranges. The title and purpose of the thread is abuse right? Or perceived abuse.
> 
> I have a mobility issue that is not apparent. My DW has a new diagnosis that is not visible that does make her eligible for a DAS.
> 
> We’re VERY aware and probably hypersensitive to how it might seem when a young family strolls on up kids in tow with no apparent visual cues.
> 
> Hence why we had the discussion.  We have been extremely reluctant to utilize any of the assistance so far (until the last trip) whether it be a scooter, a handicap spot, or a DAS.
> 
> But given some of the accusations in this thread, why wouldnt we consider someone trying to argue that it’s the same about this?  That’s probably just us being hypersensitive about it.



I understand the sensitivity to the way people will look at you. I’ve been using a mobility device for years. It started at the parks because I couldn’t manage them. Now I use a mobility device anywhere I have to walk far. I’m not that old, look healthy, and overweight. I get what other people think - She’s just fat and lazy - However, I know that I have MS and RA and walking at all gets harder every day. So, I use my chair and ignore those who make assumptions.

Think about your wife in line with the sudden urge - What if she cannot get out of line and to a bathroom quickly enough? How embarrassing with that be for her? 

We were in Epcot when a stomach virus was going around. I barely made it to the bathroom. The woman in the stall was on the phone asking a family member to go to the resort and bring her clothes because she was too humiliated to walk out into the park like that. She had a mess all over her and was near tears.

My stepson didn’t make it in time, but didn’t have a huge mess. He could walk out of the park without anyone knowing.

Now, if you have the urgency and cannot hold it on a normal basis? To me, that’s someone who needs the DAS for sure. I don’t need one since my issue is mobility, but with MS bowel and bladder issues are common. There may come a day when a DAS is necessary. 

My advice, who cares what those who assume they know your life think? It’s not easy to ignore them, but as time goes on and you get older, you learn to tune them out. (I’ve only had two people over the years who were blatantly rude, and neither was in Disney.


----------



## MS_Warrior

Lilsia said:


> I don't think that you understand how strict they are in the UK and EU. Most of the medical issues that Disney allows for DAS would not be considered a "disability" there. I have a legitimate medical issue that has to do with frequent and urgent bathroom issues. If I were to go to Disneyland Paris, I would not qualify for a DAS there.



I think a lot of it comes from the ADA laws. Disney bends over backwards to try not to infringe on those laws. As it is, With the change to DAS they had lawsuits from parents of children on the spectrum because they felt it wasn’t fair to have to wait in a different area instead of being shuffled to the front of the line.


----------



## Lilsia

MS_Warrior said:


> I think a lot of it comes from the ADA laws. Disney bends over backwards to try not to infringe on those laws. As it is, With the change to DAS they had lawsuits from parents of children on the spectrum because they felt it wasn’t fair to have to wait in a different area instead of being shuffled to the front of the line.



Yeah, I get that. But my issue is that in the EU, my medical condition is not considered a disability, so I would not qualify for a DAS there. Which I find extremely disappointing. You would think that if a person qualifies at one park, then they should at the others, since the nature of the issue has not changed just because you cross a border. My goal is to go to all of the Disney parks around the World, but it would be a struggle to actually get on many of the rides. We are talking about a theme park here, not government assistance.


----------



## TwoMisfits

Lilsia said:


> Yeah, I get that. But my issue is that in the EU, my medical condition is not considered a disability, so I would not qualify for a DAS there. Which I find extremely disappointing. You would think that if a person qualifies at one park, then they should at the others, since the nature of the issue has not changed just because you cross a border. My goal is to go to all of the Disney parks around the World, but it would be a struggle to actually get on many of the rides. We are talking about a theme park here, not government assistance.



Disney may or may not use this new policy as a chance to standardize across parks (we just don't know yet)...they may at least standardize across the US parks...


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## MS_Warrior

Lilsia said:


> Yeah, I get that. But my issue is that in the EU, my medical condition is not considered a disability, so I would not qualify for a DAS there. Which I find extremely disappointing. You would think that if a person qualifies at one park, then they should at the others, since the nature of the issue has not changed just because you cross a border. My goal is to go to all of the Disney parks around the World, but it would be a struggle to actually get on many of the rides. We are talking about a theme park here, not government assistance.



True. I know the ADA law has some requirements for theme parks to make things as accessible as possible. Disney here does better than most. It’s a shame they aren’t all uniform.


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## Claire82013

disneydreamer1980 said:


> Just sayin, I’ve seen plenty of “das” families waiting in long lines for another ride while awaiting a das return time, waiting in long food lines, waiting over an hour for shows, etc. So they’re essentially treating the program like a FP program snd they obviously have the ability to wait in line.



As someone planning on using DAS for the first time due to a condition that can flare up unexpectedly, there might be entire days or the entire trip where I don't need to use DAS because my condition isn't acting up at that specific moment. Having DAS in the case that it does is important. A lot of invisible conditions work like this, and you don't know what's happening for every specific person at any given time.


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## c_los75

People abuse the system, but it's not your place to determine that. It's up to Disney CMs to determine that. Like many have said, there are many invisible disabilities that may require a DAS. No one with a disability, visible or invisible, should have to justify their need for a DAS to anyone but the CM who issues the DAS.

Now, if the person is abusing a DAS and was dishonest to the CM issuing it, that's between the abuser and a 'higher power' (God, Jesus, Karma, etc.) only.

Just enjoy the Parks and worry about your needs, no one else's.


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## tinkerbelletreasure

I’m another person who only uses a wheelchair when I’m at Disney. And I do have to get out of the chair sometimes and walk or my knees become stiff which is nearly as painful as walking 10+ miles a day. People seems to forget that just because someone isn’t “confined to a wheelchair” doesn’t mean there isn’t a legitimate need. I did about 6 trips to Disney on a bad ankle that swelled 3 times it normal size through the course of the day. I had to stop at nearly every bench I came to. By the end of the day, I was wiped out mentally from trying to push through the pain so I wouldn’t let my kids down. I was short tempered and unhappy. I would spend about 3 hours each night with my leg iced and elevated to get the swelling down enough to be able to do it again the next day. Once we left, it would take a full week for my ankle to heal enough after that abuse that it wasn’t swelling and I wasn’t limping anymore. Now, I can go all day. If I don’t let my knees get stiff, I don’t have yo do any recovery at night. Even without doing more than minimal walking, my ankle still swells twice it’s normal size. And after our last trip, we decided that even with an electric wheelchair, I’ve reached the point where I need a midweek down day. I literally could not do Disney anymore without a mobility device. And I am always afraid to post vacation pics for fear of judgement from my friends who know I do not use a wheelchair in my day to day life. You don’t know another person’s circumstances. It is not your business. And if seeing other people use a system designed to make things easier ruins your vacation because you don’t think they deserve it, or might be abusing it. That is altogether a YOU problem.


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## BigC007

markpenske said:


> Years ago Disney would really go out of they way to help those with disabilities to have a Disney experience. That’s really not the case anyone. Why? My theory is there are so many people abusing the system.
> 
> You need look no further that the “handicap” parking lot. It’s quite common to see families park in a handicap spot, hop out and jog up to the gate. Obviously using someone else’s placard.
> 
> Folks slap a “Emotional Support Animal” vest on the family pet and poof: Service animal!
> 
> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> Our son has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair full time and the slight advantages that Disney used to provide helped a bit but there are so many things we can’t do.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.
> 
> Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system. They should be ashamed, its embarrassing.



I just left Disney after a three day hopper. I was shocked at the amount of individuals using scooters. Didn’t seem to make much sense. Although most were obese. Shame people abuse the system when there are those that truly need it.


----------



## Groot

BigC007 said:


> I just left Disney after a three day hopper. I was shocked at the amount of individuals using scooters. Didn’t seem to make much sense. Although most were obese. Shame people abuse the system when there are those that truly need it.



Just because somebody is overweight doesn’t mean that that’s the reason why they need the scooter. They could have a LEGIT disability and take medication that has weight gain as a side effect.


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## c_los75

BigC007 said:


> I just left Disney after a three day hopper. I was shocked at the amount of individuals using scooters. Didn’t seem to make much sense. Although most were obese. Shame people abuse the system when there are those that truly need it.


Judging much?


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## MS_Warrior

BigC007 said:


> I just left Disney after a three day hopper. I was shocked at the amount of individuals using scooters. Didn’t seem to make much sense. Although most were obese. Shame people abuse the system when there are those that truly need it.



Have you ever thought some of them are obese because of their disability? You cannot tell if they are abusing by looking at them. 

I have been using a mobility device for years. It started with Disney and now it's anytime I have to walk very far because I physically cannot do it. If you saw me sitting in a scooter or wheelchair, you might assume I'm abusing the system. However, I have progressive Multiple Sclerosis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, disc disease in my spine.  

Until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes, you shouldn't judge them. Just because someone is obese, it doesn't mean they don't have other issues, too. 

Trying to navigate the parks in a mobility device is exhausting enough without having other park goers making snide remarks, rolling their eyes at you, etc. 

Perhaps instead of assuming people are abusing the system, be glad it's possible for the disabled to enjoy Disney also.


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## jiminyC_fan

We just got back.  5 of us.  4 who qualify for a handicap placarda at home and one who qualifies for a DAS.  For 6 days we shared ONE wheelchair.  Why?  Because of those who judge. None of us look handicap.   We would swap out the rider every so often.  On our final day, we got two wheelchairs because we just couldn't keep going.  Why should we have to suffer those days just to satisfy the judgmental people at the parks or on here?  Almost all rides you can be pushed through the lines so there is no real advantage like some think.  As fas as DAS, my grandson has uncontrolled epilepsy and autism.  He's mentally four but is really 16.  You can't tell by looking at him that he is severely handicapped.  Honestly, what does someone look like that is handicapped anyway?  My daughter is very mindful of the DAS and if a ride has a fairly low wait time, she won't even use it.  No one realizes that.  They would rather judge!  Sorry.  Off my soapbox.


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## SMF_mom23

Our last trip in March of this year it took months to finally convince my DH to let me rent a scooter for him.  He doesn't "look sick" but he has Diffuse Systemic Scleroderma and has had it for more than 15 years.  Due to SSC he has developed lung fibrosis (shattered glass looking on imaging) and cannot manage much walking at any typical speed for long without becoming so out of breath he starts coughing, sometimes to the point of vomiting.  This has been going on for YEARS, but he was very resistant to getting the scooter, in part due to what other people might say/think. My stepmother broke her little toe less than a week before our trip and I ended up renting another scooter for her to use when she needed it.  

Because neither of them felt they "needed" the scooter all the time, there were occasions when my DD(16) used it or I even I used it.  She has issues with her ankles and hips for a myriad of reasons that make it painful for her to walk long distances, some stemming from a femur fracture when she was 3. (Ironically, she was trying to stand on a DIsney Princess ball when she fell and broke her leg.)  We didn't anticipate our DD needing the scooter, so we were very glad we arranged for two.  But the looks we got sometimes, especially when trying to load on the buses, because DD would get off the scooter have one of us adults load it as they can be difficult to maneuver, were pretty harsh and DD hated those looks.


----------



## jiminyC_fan

SMF_mom23 said:


> Our last trip in March of this year it took months to finally convince my DH to let me rent a scooter for him.  He doesn't "look sick" but he has Diffuse Systemic Scleroderma and has had it for more than 15 years.  Due to SSC he has developed lung fibrosis (shattered glass looking on imaging) and cannot manage much walking at any typical speed for long without becoming so out of breath he starts coughing, sometimes to the point of vomiting.  This has been going on for YEARS, but he was very resistant to getting the scooter, in part due to what other people might say/think. My stepmother broke her little toe less than a week before our trip and I ended up renting another scooter for her to use when she needed it.
> 
> Because neither of them felt they "needed" the scooter all the time, there were occasions when my DD(16) used it or I even I used it.  She has issues with her ankles and hips for a myriad of reasons that make it painful for her to walk long distances, some stemming from a femur fracture when she was 3. (Ironically, she was trying to stand on a DIsney Princess ball when she fell and broke her leg.)  We didn't anticipate our DD needing the scooter, so we were very glad we arranged for two.  But the looks we got sometimes, especially when trying to load on the buses, because DD would get off the scooter have one of us adults load it as they can be difficult to maneuver, were pretty harsh and DD hated those looks.


It truly makes me sad that you had to experience it, too.  I'm sorry people treated you like that.


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## SMF_mom23

jiminyC_fan said:


> It truly makes me sad that you had to experience it, too.  I'm sorry people treated you like that.


Thank you.  It was disappointing and frustrating, especially where DD was concerned. For myself, I try to ignore it and just look at it as at least those people are living lives where they're blessed enough to not (yet) know what it is like to need assistance of person or technology to simply get around.  Now if I had to deal with those attitudes and judgements every day, I doubt I could be so forgiving.  /shrug


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## ttintagel

I’ve toured the parks both on foot when I was able to and in an ECV when I wasn’t. On foot was far and away a better experience. Nobody would be using ECV’s if they didn’t really need them.


----------



## Bianca and Bernard

tinkerbelletreasure said:


> I did about 6 trips to Disney on a bad ankle that swelled 3 times it normal size through the course of the day. I had to stop at nearly every bench I came to. By the end of the day, I was wiped out mentally from trying to push through the pain so I wouldn’t let my kids down. I was short tempered and unhappy. I would spend about 3 hours each night with my leg iced and elevated to get the swelling down enough to be able to do it again the next day. Once we left, it would take a full week for my ankle to heal enough after that abuse that it wasn’t swelling and I wasn’t limping anymore.




I was like this when we went to WDW in June. Every night, I would sit on the floor of the shower (no tub that trip) and run cold water over my knees, ankles and hips (from the movable showerhead). Then I would put icepacks on them for hours. 
After, I spent a week without doing much at all, except one trip to the store (usually an hour, took me 2 with how slow I had to go). Another week of slightly more moving. Then I fell down 3 cement steps while taking out trash; landed with my legs bent up under my behind, and my back on the ground. Another 3 weeks of barely moving, with injured back and knees. 

Next time, if we go again, I'm looking at an ECV.  DH and I can take turns using it as needed.


----------



## MS_Warrior

SMF_mom23 said:


> Our last trip in March of this year it took months to finally convince my DH to let me rent a scooter for him.  He doesn't "look sick" but he has Diffuse Systemic Scleroderma and has had it for more than 15 years.  Due to SSC he has developed lung fibrosis (shattered glass looking on imaging) and cannot manage much walking at any typical speed for long without becoming so out of breath he starts coughing, sometimes to the point of vomiting.  This has been going on for YEARS, but he was very resistant to getting the scooter, in part due to what other people might say/think. My stepmother broke her little toe less than a week before our trip and I ended up renting another scooter for her to use when she needed it.
> 
> Because neither of them felt they "needed" the scooter all the time, there were occasions when my DD(16) used it or I even I used it.  She has issues with her ankles and hips for a myriad of reasons that make it painful for her to walk long distances, some stemming from a femur fracture when she was 3. (Ironically, she was trying to stand on a DIsney Princess ball when she fell and broke her leg.)  We didn't anticipate our DD needing the scooter, so we were very glad we arranged for two.  But the looks we got sometimes, especially when trying to load on the buses, because DD would get off the scooter have one of us adults load it as they can be difficult to maneuver, were pretty harsh and DD hated those looks.



I’ve encountered a few nasty people in the parks. However, most have been nice. Keyboard bullies are the ones who say the meanest things. I decided a long time ago to not care if they think I’m abusing it. My family and I know what’s going on. I was a nurse for many years and have seen people who are terminally ill who would get the “looks” for using a scooter. My skin’s grown a little thicker over the years, and I‘ve decided to enjoy myself in spite of bullies, whether in Disney, on a cruise, or just shopping. Doesn’t mean I won’t call them out for being judgmental.


----------



## BroadwayHermione5

Selket said:


> I use an ECV at WDW but not at home.   My badly arthritic knees cannot take that much walking.  However I can park and walk some - even into some attractions back when there was FP.   I don't know what advantage I got other than being able to sit - most lines are mainstreamed.  I've waited longer when I needed to stay in the ECV up until boarding.    It's not obvious how painful my knees are after walking.   I try not to judge anyone I see with a DAS or WC/ECV because I know there are many hidden disabilities.   I can't tell it affects my vacation.
> 
> Maybe more people like me are likely to do a Disney vacation because they can use an ECV?   I know it's the only vacation I enjoy anymore because everywhere we try to go the walking keeps me up in pain much of the night - and I don't get to see all the things I want to see in the daytime.
> 
> I think the handicap parking and support animals are things that exist everywhere and not just Disney so I don't know that the abuse of them is greater there.
> 
> **edited to add that one thing they "used to go out of the way" was to help those with food allergies - the chefs would come out, etc.   However now they have done a great job of making it easier to see what allergens are in what food (for major allergens).  It's nice not to have to call in advance to arrange meals, etc. like I used to have to do for one of my kids.   Rather than curtailing the food service, I think they've made it easier to access the information.


As an FYI, we had multiple people come speak to us last week in regards to my mom and her red wine allergy. Either a manager, another waiter or waitress, or a host. Never got a chef. But they still do take care of allergies very well. It was refreshing to see.


----------



## Evita_W

BroadwayHermione5 said:


> As an FYI, we had multiple people come speak to us last week in regards to my mom and her red wine allergy. Either a manager, another waiter or waitress, or a host. Never got a chef. But they still do take care of allergies very well. It was refreshing to see.


DH and I both have a sensitivity to items cooked with Alcohol, things like Vanilla Extract are ok given the minimal amounts involved, but if it is an ingredient, say cooking Sherry or such, then it is a major issue and can take us down for the rest of the day and/or part of the next day.

There are times where we have thought something was safe and felt the effects afterward, so we went back and asked and sure enough, every time (it is a very distinct feeling, especially for DH) the item in question contained alcohol. It would be really nice if this was listed on the list of allergens, as this is actually more common than many think. Additionally, people who are recovering alcoholics should not have items cooked with alcohol, as it can set them back. Children also shouldn't have items cooked with alcohol, as most people believe it cooks off, but that isn't actually true, only about 60%-80% cooks off.

This is an area where Disney does fail miserably on both coasts, for example at Plaza Inn at Disneyland, the Alfredo Sauce and the Beef Gravy both contain alcohol. I only know this because a CM friend of ours works there and told us. Then at dinner when we asked about a particular dish at Cafe Orleans (which has about 6 items on the menu right now), the server had no clue and took about 10 minutes to find out, then ordered something else and they didn't check it. Now in this case, I blame the server, but in the first case, who would think to ask about Alfredo Sauce (which should literally be butter and parmesan cheese, maybe some garlic) or about beef gravy? Luckily, even before DH knew about the gravy, he would always ask for the Chicken gravy, as he likes the flavor better, so it always worked out and our CM friend was questioning why he was always ok ordering the pot roast when the beef gravy had alcohol, then we figured it out.


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## DisneyOma

BigC007 said:


> I just left Disney after a three day hopper. I was shocked at the amount of individuals using scooters. Didn’t seem to make much sense. Although most were obese. Shame people abuse the system when there are those that truly need it.



What is it about using a scooter that makes you think someone is "abusing the system"? Scooter users don't go to the head of any line, usually have to wait for a bus if there is another scooter already in line, etc. How is that abusing anything?


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## Woth2982

BigC007 said:


> I just left Disney after a three day hopper. I was shocked at the amount of individuals using scooters. Didn’t seem to make much sense. Although most were obese. Shame people abuse the system when there are those that truly need it.


I will be renting a scooter for my November trip. I will be 22 weeks pregnant and because I am tall I "look" overweight when I am in fact pregnant. I also had spine surgery and standing still causes severe pain when not pregnant. Add pregnancy to the mix and it is a lot. I can stand and walk just fine, but for my own comfort will be using the scooter. I had a broken foot in Disney before and the only rides I had any "benefits" to were Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Thunder Mountain and Spaceship Earth. Only ride I can go on this time is SE, so there will not be any huge advantage for me.


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## MS_Warrior

Woth2982 said:


> I will be renting a scooter for my November trip. I will be 22 weeks pregnant and because I am tall I "look" overweight when I am in fact pregnant. I also had spine surgery and standing still causes severe pain when not pregnant. Add pregnancy to the mix and it is a lot. I can stand and walk just fine, but for my own comfort will be using the scooter. I had a broken foot in Disney before and the only rides I had any "benefits" to were Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Thunder Mountain and Spaceship Earth. Only ride I can go on this time is SE, so there will not be any huge advantage for me.



Don’t worry about what people may say. Honestly, I’ve found most people in the parks are very nice. The worst part is they don’t see you in the scooter/wheelchair so you have to drive at a crawl to not hit anyone. 

The few looks/comments I’ve gotten have mostly been other places than WDW. I’ve dealt with many more keyboard bullies about Disney than in person. It will make the trip doable. Have a great time!


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## OldDisneyFan

I recently returned from WDW and rented a scooter two days out of seven.  Yes, I am fluffy, but also suffer from a long-term injury that makes it difficult to walk all day.  No special access and I usually parked the scooter outside of the ride queues.  Made the trip bearable.


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## Woth2982

MS_Warrior said:


> The few looks/comments I’ve gotten have mostly been other places than WDW. I’ve dealt with many more keyboard bullies about Disney than in person. It will make the trip doable. Have a great time!


Thank you! Both my doctor and family (mom, MIL and SIL are nurses) think this is the best decision for me, it will help me enjoy my trip. The pregnancy was planned but unexpected (we had infertility with our first and were expecting the same with this one), so was not expecting to be pregnant on this trip.


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## MS_Warrior

Woth2982 said:


> Thank you! Both my doctor and family (mom, MIL and SIL are nurses) think this is the best decision for me, it will help me enjoy my trip. The pregnancy was planned but unexpected (we had infertility with our first and were expecting the same with this one), so was not expecting to be pregnant on this trip.



You’re very welcome. Have a great trip.


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## Betty Rohrer

Woth2982 said:


> I will be renting a scooter for my November trip. I will be 22 weeks pregnant and because I am tall I "look" overweight when I am in fact pregnant. I also had spine surgery and standing still causes severe pain when not pregnant. Add pregnancy to the mix and it is a lot. I can stand and walk just fine, but for my own comfort will be using the scooter. I had a broken foot in Disney before and the only rides I had any "benefits" to were Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Thunder Mountain and Spaceship Earth. Only ride I can go on this time is SE, so there will not be any huge advantage for me.


I am assuming you are renting offsite but in case you are not remember as of now no trams in parking lots so it can be either a long walk to car or bus at end of day. something to think about if park renting. congrats on the new addition


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## here757

Such a judgy post.
Orginal poster trying to his behind the child’s disability..


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## Woth2982

Betty Rohrer said:


> I am assuming you are renting offsite but in case you are not remember as of now no trams in parking lots so it can be either a long walk to car or bus at end of day. something to think about if park renting. congrats on the new addition


Yes we are renting from Gold Mobility. When I had my broken foot back in 2015 it was hard to get a scooter at MK, they were all out for the day by the time I got to the park. Thank you for the tip though! We also rented a minivan. We prepared this time around lol! And thank you! We are very excited!


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## SMF_mom23

Woth2982 said:


> Yes we are renting from Gold Mobility. When I had my broken foot back in 2015 it was hard to get a scooter at MK, they were all out for the day by the time I got to the park. Thank you for the tip though! We also rented a minivan. We prepared this time around lol! And thank you! We are very excited!


We loved working with Gold Mobility.  They were very easy to work with when our flights were delayed, then the line for the DME was longer so our arrival was a few hours later than anticipated.


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## Wojodis

Judgment, verbal attacks, foul language--this current transition phase from FP+ to Disney Genie--Genie +/IAS is especially difficult for DAS users in this regard due to the fact that they are pretty much the only ones using the "Lightning Lanes". For some reason, guests in the Standby lines feel it's open season to freely express themselves (and their ignorance). Traveling with friends on my most recent trip for the 50th, we did not use a DAS but when I travel with my family, we've used one since DAS was established. I have no issue with the ridiculous comments I hear as I walk through the line--they roll right off--however, whenever an adult directs their frustration, rage, impatience at a child--I have no tolerance. Adults know, or should know better, than to verbally accost a child. People see others moving quickly through the line and either forget or don't realize: A) that you still had to check in and wait the same time that they have; B) often times it is a collective effort to engage, distract, calm a loved one (and sometimes those idle time periods can create some of the most difficult challenges--so yes, often times these "waiting periods" are spent doing something different--maintaining structure, focus, and attention is the goal); C) they are seeing a brief, passing moment in time--they did not see what just happened when someone just brushed up against my family member as we were walking up to the attraction cue; D) they have no idea what others go through or struggle with or battle to overcome both inside and outside of DisneyWorld everyday; and E) realize how many return times go unused--because, frankly, it just wasn't meant to be that day. 
In our particular situation, we did seek out a DAS. A wonderful CM at Animal Kingdom noticed what I'll call "some commotion" one morning and upon further investigation and communication--was able to expertly assist in de-escalating a situation--he then instructed us to go to Guest Services to register. I'm hopeful that once others are using the lightning lanes again--DAS users and their families will encounter much less of the aggressive behavior from other guests. 
In terms of DAS abuse--does it happen? Oh, definitely--I'm not naive--it's also not just a DAS specific issue--I've seen a family show up at a bus stop at HS with one family member in a scooter. They complained and threatened the driver until he emptied the already loaded bus. At this point, their entire party of 18 people got on board--no joking--18 people. Then back at the resort--I witnessed that same family playing tackle football 15 minutes later, including the person who was in the scooter. There will always be those who cut corners, cheat a little here and there, and do what they can to get theirs. I can waste my energy getting frustrated and angry or I can just let it go--that's my choice. So, when I see a seemingly neurotypical child or an adult with no obvious physical impairment walking by in the cue next to me and it's easy to question if this individual truly needs this accommodation or if it is just someone scamming the system--I choose to be empathetic and thankful--grateful that I don't have those struggles.
In terms of Disney researching and investigating those who lie and scam the system--Disney knows a lot more about what we do than most people think--look at the last DAS legal case--they knew where the parties were, their movements throughout the park, how much time they could spend in the park at one time, etc.--remember, no matter what media one uses--we all still have to scan in at attractions--your ticket is always your ticket (well, once it's activated with its first use)--maybe they are going to become a lot more aggressive and intensive about using this data--this may be what they have in mind going forward--who knows? Their verbiage is definitely much stronger than its ever been before--
"What happens if any of the statements made by a Guest in the process of registering for DAS are found to be not true?
If Disney determines that any of the statements a Guest made in the process of obtaining DAS are not true, the Guest will be permanently barred from entering Walt Disney World Resort and the Disneyland Resort, and any previously purchased annual passes, Magic Key passes, tickets and other park products and services will be forfeited and not refunded."


----------



## Evita_W

Wojodis said:


> Judgment, verbal attacks, foul language--this current transition phase from FP+ to Disney Genie--Genie +/IAS is especially difficult for DAS users in this regard due to the fact that they are pretty much the only ones using the "Lightning Lanes". For some reason, guests in the Standby lines feel it's open season to freely express themselves (and their ignorance). Traveling with friends on my most recent trip for the 50th, we did not use a DAS but when I travel with my family, we've used one since DAS was established. I have no issue with the ridiculous comments I hear as I walk through the line--they roll right off--however, whenever an adult directs their frustration, rage, impatience at a child--I have no tolerance. Adults know, or should know better, than to verbally accost a child. People see others moving quickly through the line and either forget or don't realize: A) that you still had to check in and wait the same time that they have; B) often times it is a collective effort to engage, distract, calm a loved one (and sometimes those idle time periods can create some of the most difficult challenges--so yes, often times these "waiting periods" are spent doing something different--maintaining structure, focus, and attention is the goal); C) they are seeing a brief, passing moment in time--they did not see what just happened when someone just brushed up against my family member as we were walking up to the attraction cue; D) they have no idea what others go through or struggle with or battle to overcome both inside and outside of DisneyWorld everyday; and E) realize how many return times go unused--because, frankly, it just wasn't meant to be that day.
> In our particular situation, we did seek out a DAS. A wonderful CM at Animal Kingdom noticed what I'll call "some commotion" one morning and upon further investigation and communication--was able to expertly assist in de-escalating a situation--he then instructed us to go to Guest Services to register. I'm hopeful that once others are using the lightning lanes again--DAS users and their families will encounter much less of the aggressive behavior from other guests.
> In terms of DAS abuse--does it happen? Oh, definitely--I'm not naive--it's also not just a DAS specific issue--I've seen a family show up at a bus stop at HS with one family member in a scooter. They complained and threatened the driver until he emptied the already loaded bus. At this point, their entire party of 18 people got on board--no joking--18 people. Then back at the resort--I witnessed that same family playing tackle football 15 minutes later, including the person who was in the scooter. There will always be those who cut corners, cheat a little here and there, and do what they can to get theirs. I can waste my energy getting frustrated and angry or I can just let it go--that's my choice. So, when I see a seemingly neurotypical child or an adult with no obvious physical impairment walking by in the cue next to me and it's easy to question if this individual truly needs this accommodation or if it is just someone scamming the system--I choose to be empathetic and thankful--grateful that I don't have those struggles.
> In terms of Disney researching and investigating those who lie and scam the system--Disney knows a lot more about what we do than most people think--look at the last DAS legal case--they knew where the parties were, their movements throughout the park, how much time they could spend in the park at one time, etc.--remember, no matter what media one uses--we all still have to scan in at attractions--your ticket is always your ticket (well, once it's activated with its first use)--maybe they are going to become a lot more aggressive and intensive about using this data--this may be what they have in mind going forward--who knows? Their verbiage is definitely much stronger than its ever been before--
> "What happens if any of the statements made by a Guest in the process of registering for DAS are found to be not true?
> If Disney determines that any of the statements a Guest made in the process of obtaining DAS are not true, the Guest will be permanently barred from entering Walt Disney World Resort and the Disneyland Resort, and any previously purchased annual passes, Magic Key passes, tickets and other park products and services will be forfeited and not refunded."


To the point of if something is untrue, thisnis a reminder for those who do need the DAS keep the explanation simple, if they need more details, let the CM ask, but that way you don't inadvertently say something that could be construed as untrue. This way, you get the assistance you actually need based on the truth of what your needs are and don't have issues down the road.

As for the comments, I usually politely point out that the queue is also used for Guest recovery if a ride broke down and if I knownof a specific ride breaking down that day, I may use it as an example and point out some people on the ride could have waited an hour and half to be evacuated (that happened to DH at Grizzly River Run in DCA before, during a 110 degree day), then they usually back down. It is also used for Club 33 members and VIP Tours, but that usually doesn't help much, as that is people paying to skip the lines. I fear Lightning lanes will be viewed in a similar fasion.


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## lanejudy

Wojodis said:


> Judgment, verbal attacks, foul language--this current transition phase from FP+ to Disney Genie--Genie +/IAS is especially difficult for DAS users in this regard due to the fact that they are pretty much the only ones using the "Lightning Lanes".


Actually, the FP queue (Lightning Lane) is currently in use for at least 5 different categories of park attendees:

Guest Recovery FP (may be given for various reasons)
Rider Swap
DAS
VIP Tours
Club 33
While I have no definitive stats, I would venture to guess both Rider Swap and Guest Recovery account for more users than DAS.


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## Woth2982

SMF_mom23 said:


> We loved working with Gold Mobility.  They were very easy to work with when our flights were delayed, then the line for the DME was longer so our arrival was a few hours later than anticipated.


I have heard great things! I am arriving on Saturday, but no parks til Tuesday so we are having them deliver the scooter on Monday! Our DD will be 15 months on this trip so between her and my situation we are taking it nice and easy this trip. It will be a new experience for all of us!


----------



## Lilsia

I am here now and have been here over a week. I have excellent hearing and usually hear the conversation around me. I have not heard one person say anything about me going through the lightening lane. I don't doubt that some people say things. I just don't think that it is as often as some think it is.


----------



## RamblinWreck

SueM in MN said:


> If you saw this cutie in a wheelchair, would you think it was a rented wheelchair to ‘cheat’?
> What if she was sitting on a bench, with the wheelchair parked next to her?
> View attachment 597674
> 
> This is my youngest DD a long time ago in EPCOT by Norway. When she was this age, posed this way in her wheelchair, I actually heard someone say to her companion (loud enough for me to hear) that ”it’s a shame they let people rent wheelchairs just to get ahead in line.” Based on her comments, it was because my daughter was crossing her leg and swinging the top leg.
> She and I were sitting on a bench in Germany when I heard 2 guys behind me make the same comments. Apparently, they believed if someone can get out of their wheelchair, they must not be disabled (she didn’t even get out by herself, I lifted her and arranged her leg for her since she can’t cross it herself).
> 
> View attachment 597676
> 
> What about this picture? Does she look disabled? Or pretending to be disabled?
> This picture was taken a few years ago when she was just driving around near an overlook at Kali River Rapids while we waited for her dad and friend to come thru on their raft.
> Another person waiting in the area commented to their companion “if people are going to rent a wheelchair to skip lines they shouldn’t try so hard to look disabled.” Apparently, my daughter was doing too good of a job of being disabled.
> 
> And, there was a time when one of the people assigned to the same table as my family spent most of the meal complaining about how people using wheelchairs were ruining the parks by getting front of line access. That was one uncomfortable meal.
> There are quite a few people who think they can tell by looking whether someone is ‘really disabled‘ or not. If they fail so miserably with someone in a wheelchair, how do they think they can do it for other disabilities without physical signs?
> 
> EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: My daughter has cerebral palsy and is not able to walk, which she uses a wheelchair for. If her only need was to use the wheelchair in line, she would not need or use DAS.
> She has additional disability related needs that are not met by the wheelchair. Those are invisible and are why she uses DAS


I genuinely cannot fathom the mindset of someone who would think any of those thoughts, let alone actually verbalize them.


----------



## RamblinWreck

Lilsia said:


> I am here now and have been here over a week. I have excellent hearing and usually hear the conversation around me. I have not heard one person say anything about me going through the lightening lane. I don't doubt that some people say things. I just don't think that it is as often as some think it is.


Now that regular people can pay for lightning lane access, I don't think there's any way for someone in the regular line to even know that you're using DAS.

They'll just judge you for spending more money than them now. Big win!


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## DisneyOma

I was only challenged once this past August when I used DAS (first trip with it, what a difference! No ride in the ambulance to the ER- yay!) and it was a little unnerving. We were using my return time for FOP, and some man called out to us from the standby queue and asked if Fastpass was working again. I just paused, turned to him and said "No, it's not" and continued in. But it made me anxious to have someone calling out to me like that.


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## BroganMc

DAS was designed around the needs of autistic kids. They later defined it as "any need that created line anxiety". Before GAC, disability needs were based around wheelchairs. GAC was to service everyone with health issues and had different access types. Those echo were allowed to use a stroller as a wheelchair. Those whip needed only to avoid stairs. And the much coveted those who got the immediate alternate entry stamp.

By adding the return times, Disney made disabled folks wait longer under the principle it was equal access to non-disabled folks. All theme parks do the same now. It doesn't take into account that the stamina of a disabled person may be less or they may be physically unable to do as much.

For instance Magic Kingdom is not a big draw to me because 70% of the rides I cannot do. They are too old and inaccessible. And yet I pay the same for theme park ticket as everyone else.

I have met many fakers along the way. The most maddening ones I encounter in the parking lots. I drive a ramp van and am usually by myself. There's no way I can get into or out of my car if someone Parks or leave something in the hatch marks. Handicapped parking is usually full at the resorts so I end up parking at the far end of the lot next to the maintenance equipment. It's the only way to be sure I can get back in my car. At home I'm parking at the far end buy a dumpster or a light pole when I go out shopping so some idiot doesn't block me out of my car. The worst abusers are those " I'll just be a minute" delivery drivers who will double Park and block two handicap spots.

But I do not have time or energy to brood over the wannabes. My body gives me enough pain and slows me down quite enough to occupy my day. If they want to rack up Bad Karma or God's Wrath, that's their business.

It does concern me that Disney set up a disability program intentionally designed around invisible disabilities that can be easily faked and require no medical proof. But only in that those of us with very visible disabilities are now being openly denied the disability program and encouraged to use the paid option Genie Plus instead.

As for the service dog abuse, the worst abuse I saw was the dog in Epcot clearly not trying to be around a crowd. She was very friendly, too friendly. Easily came up to other people licking them and even stole somebody's hotdog. Now she was friendly but imagine if you had a dog that nipped others. That should get you and the dog banned from Disney parks.


----------



## Evita_W

BroganMc said:


> DAS was designed around the needs of autistic kids. They later defined it as "any need that created line anxiety". Before GAC, disability needs were based around wheelchairs. GAC was to service everyone with health issues and had different access types. Those echo were allowed to use a stroller as a wheelchair. Those whip needed only to avoid stairs. And the much coveted those who got the immediate alternate entry stamp.
> 
> By adding the return times, Disney made disabled folks wait longer under the principle it was equal access to non-disabled folks. All theme parks do the same now. It doesn't take into account that the stamina of a disabled person may be less or they may be physically unable to do as much.
> 
> For instance Magic Kingdom is not a big draw to me because 70% of the rides I cannot do. They are too old and inaccessible. And yet I pay the same for theme park ticket as everyone else.
> 
> I have met many fakers along the way. The most maddening ones I encounter in the parking lots. I drive a ramp van and am usually by myself. There's no way I can get into or out of my car if someone Parks or leave something in the hatch marks. Handicapped parking is usually full at the resorts so I end up parking at the far end of the lot next to the maintenance equipment. It's the only way to be sure I can get back in my car. At home I'm parking at the far end buy a dumpster or a light pole when I go out shopping so some idiot doesn't block me out of my car. The worst abusers are those " I'll just be a minute" delivery drivers who will double Park and block two handicap spots.
> 
> But I do not have time or energy to brood over the wannabes. My body gives me enough pain and slows me down quite enough to occupy my day. If they want to rack up Bad Karma or God's Wrath, that's their business.
> 
> It does concern me that Disney set up a disability program intentionally designed around invisible disabilities that can be easily faked and require no medical proof. But only in that those of us with very visible disabilities are now being openly denied the disability program and encouraged to use the paid option Genie Plus instead.
> 
> As for the service dog abuse, the worst abuse I saw was the dog in Epcot clearly not trying to be around a crowd. She was very friendly, too friendly. Easily came up to other people licking them and even stole somebody's hotdog. Now she was friendly but imagine if you had a dog that nipped others. That should get you and the dog banned from Disney parks.


Service dogs, real or fake that nip will get you kicked out of the parks, DH has seen it happen. As for people who are faking, you honestly don't know who is or isn't faking or who has just dropped off their grandma closer to the entrance and is now parking or who needs a DAS or doesn't just by looking at them and no, the DAS wasn't created around autism, it was one of the needs it was designed to address, but there are many others and that comes directly from Disney executives that  were responsible for the DAS system that DH personally spoke with when they were coming out with the DAS.

And I have only seen one person mention they were denied a DAS initially and they spoke with Disability  Services and the issue was corrected.


----------



## DisneyOma

BroganMc said:


> DAS was designed around the needs of autistic kids. They later defined it as "any need that created line anxiety". Before GAC, disability needs were based around wheelchairs. GAC was to service everyone with health issues and had different access types. Those echo were allowed to use a stroller as a wheelchair. Those whip needed only to avoid stairs. And the much coveted those who got the immediate alternate entry stamp.
> 
> By adding the return times, Disney made disabled folks wait longer under the principle it was equal access to non-disabled folks. All theme parks do the same now. It doesn't take into account that the stamina of a disabled person may be less or they may be physically unable to do as much.
> 
> For instance Magic Kingdom is not a big draw to me because 70% of the rides I cannot do. They are too old and inaccessible. And yet I pay the same for theme park ticket as everyone else.



As Evita_W stated above, DAS was not designed just for autistic kids, because if it was, then you are saying the GAC did nothing for them. DAS removed the stamina/mobility disabilities, as those are met by using a mobility device.  To avoid stairs, let the CM know. 

Also, consider that not all disabilities are health issues, right?

Some theme parks do offer discounts for guests with disabilities who cannot ride a lot of attractions, or they give a discount/free pass to a companion. Disney does not because they have so many different levels of attractions, from shows, street performers (past tense now) and some of the most accessible attractions around. 

Don't forget the free parking at resorts for a vehicle with a hangtag, and if you really want to think about stuff, think about how in the US, you can apply for this: https://www.nps.gov/subjects/accessibility/access-pass.htm


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## Kimly

This whole thread is… ouch! Judge-y much?! Many Disabilities are invisible, my 13 year old daughter has JRA, my 11 year old is deaf and my husband has a fusion in his foot; all of which invisible, & would allow us to have a handicap parking pass (which we don’t, but could get ) and allow us to use DAS. We look like a fit and “ healthy “ family, and I’m sure people assume and pass judgment, but shame on them because you never know what other people are dealing with.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Kimly said:


> This whole thread is… ouch! Judge-y much?! Many Disabilities are invisible, my 13 year old daughter has JRA, my 11 year old is deaf and my husband has a fusion in his foot; all of which invisible, & would allow us to have a handicap parking pass (which we don’t, but could get ) and allow us to use DAS. We look like a fit and “ healthy “ family, and I’m sure people assume and pass judgment, but shame on them because you never know what other people are dealing with.


Since you brought it up, I am curious as to why a DAS would be issued for someone who is deaf…what does not being able to hear have to do with needing to wait outside of the standard queue?  

And a fusion in a foot sounds like a mobility issue - why would a DAS be issue for a mobility issue?


----------



## HopperFan

OurBigTrip said:


> Since you brought it up, I am curious as to why a DAS would be issued for someone who is deaf…what does not being able to hear have to do with needing to wait outside of the standard queue?
> 
> And a fusion in a foot sounds like a mobility issue - why would a DAS be issue for a mobility issue?



I have JRA and do not believe it qualifies, it's impact would be more mobility related at Disney.


----------



## OurBigTrip

HopperFan said:


> I have JRA and do not believe it qualifies, it's impact would be more mobility related at Disney.


I wasn’t sure what JRA is, so didn’t want to comment , but thank you!

There really aren’t “disabilities that qualify for DAS” because the same disability can manifest itself differently in each person, resulting in different needs, which may or may not be accommodated  by DAS.


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## bookgirl

BroganMc said:


> It does concern me that Disney set up a disability program intentionally designed around invisible disabilities that can be easily faked and require no medical proof.




Proof is not a Disney issue, that is a Federal Issue.  ADA sets the boundaries for what can be asked or answered.  As someone who had to deal with accessibility to the public in my work life I was hampered by what I could and could not ask, even when I knew someone was lying or abusing the system.

I say this as someone who does have to have accommodations (and does not always qualify or get them) in my own life and as someone who has to be on the other side of the counter so to speak.

I actually think that the 'how does waiting in a line present an issue' is a great leveler of people who truly need accommodation and those who don't, but in a way I do wish that the law made it a little easier to require some sort of 'proof'.


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## tinkychloe

RamblinWreck said:


> Now that regular people can pay for lightning lane access, I don't think there's any way for someone in the regular line to even know that you're using DAS.
> 
> They'll just judge you for spending more money than them now. Big win!



I'm glad that there are others using the 'fastpass' line again. On my last trip, when guests in the standby line would ask the CM why I was able to get a fastpass, he or she would respond to the guest that I was using a disability pass. I always felt uncomfortable with them loudly announcing that to everyone around me. Hopefully now it will be a little bit more discrete.


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## DisSurfer878

I'm just going to put a vent here. Without Fastpass at DLand, and Genie+("fastpass") now a surcharge at WDW, the number of people I've seen posting in various Disney groups on many platforms asking how to get a disability pass because "grandma has a bum knee" or "my aunt can't walk far" and so they shouldn't be "forced" to stand in lines so how do I get the DAS for them? IS DRIVING ME NUTS. And then they get CRAZY MAD when someone tells them DAS is not for mobility issues. And then all the misinformation! Random people being like oh if they have bad knees they qualify for the DAS. NOPE, not how it works. It's been 100 times worse in the last 2-3 months and it's honestly making me so irritated. It'd be one thing if they asked and accepted the "no" but they never do! They get angry, argumentative, and try to find ways around it. Maybe this isn't the place for it, but it's definitely upsetting to see multiple times a day everyday across multiple spaces.


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## mamabunny

DisSurfer878 said:


> I'm just going to put a vent here. Without Fastpass at DLand, and Genie+("fastpass") now a surcharge at WDW, the number of people I've seen posting in various Disney groups on many platforms asking how to get a disability pass because "grandma has a bum knee" or "my aunt can't walk far" and so they shouldn't be "forced" to stand in lines so how do I get the DAS for them? IS DRIVING ME NUTS. And then they get CRAZY MAD when someone tells them DAS is not for mobility issues. And then all the misinformation! Random people being like oh if they have bad knees they qualify for the DAS. NOPE, not how it works. It's been 100 times worse in the last 2-3 months and it's honestly making me so irritated. It'd be one thing if they asked and accepted the "no" but they never do! They get angry, argumentative, and try to find ways around it. Maybe this isn't the place for it, but it's definitely upsetting to see multiple times a day everyday across multiple spaces.



So, the next time that someone *here* says they are having trouble getting through to set up their DAS, let's all spare a thought for those poor CMs trying to deal with all of this mess.

When you look at the front page of this forum, all of the posts lately are about DAS.  How to get it, how to deal with the "video visit" system, who qualifies... It feels like that's all we talk about now.

I get it - lately, I have been "educating" all of my medical team as I see them about *their* misconceptions regarding the DAS - most of them still believed that the old GAC system was still in place, and the few that knew that DAS had replaced it were still wrong about how it worked, what it covered, and the fact that a "doctor's letter" was needed - or would help at all.


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## DisSurfer878

mamabunny said:


> So, the next time that someone *here* says they are having trouble getting through to set up their DAS, let's all spare a thought for those poor CMs trying to deal with all of this mess.
> 
> When you look at the front page of this forum, all of the posts lately are about DAS.  How to get it, how to deal with the "video visit" system, who qualifies... It feels like that's all we talk about now.
> 
> I get it - lately, I have been "educating" all of my medical team as I see them about *their* misconceptions regarding the DAS - most of them still believed that the old GAC system was still in place, and the few that knew that DAS had replaced it were still wrong about how it worked, what it covered, and the fact that a "doctor's letter" was needed - or would help at all.


While I understand what you're saying about being empathetic to CMs and whatnot. I think its unfair to say anyone who has been complaining or venting or frustrated by the new preregistration process is upset with CMs. They are upset with corporate Disney who does not have the program properly staffed, and by Disney's IT/software engineering team whose systems are difficult to use. It's not the CMs actually doing the system that anyone is upset with here on the Dis.


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## Belle1962

I’m not upset with the CM’s. You can’t really be upset with Disney IT either if they weren’t given enough resources to fully create this system-which we don’t know if it they were. I AM upset at Disney for creating a system that is not working and those people on the internet who, trying to be helpful, are giving up too much information on why they receive a DAS. With the new system, I think people who had skated by are now desperate for new information on what to say and what reason they might need to indicate for a DAS. Hopefully Disney will get their act together and either staff up the video lines or change the system. I personally would prefer if they just made us do it onsite-I’d be willing to go to someplace specific to “check in”, get the DAS and pick my 2 rides per day-but I haven’t reached the point where it would be impossible for me to do it yet.


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## DisneyOma

Not sure why they even have this online registration? The added DAS passes make it much too valuable and that's probably why they are getting overrun with callers. Think it's because they got rid of Fastpass, and this covers their butts somehow?


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## DisneyOma

Belle1962 said:


> I’m not upset with the CM’s. You can’t really be upset with Disney IT either if they weren’t given enough resources to fully create this system-which we don’t know if it they were. I AM upset at Disney for creating a system that is not working and those people on the internet who, trying to be helpful, are giving up too much information on why they receive a DAS. With the new system, I think people who had skated by are now desperate for new information on what to say and what reason they might need to indicate for a DAS. Hopefully Disney will get their act together and either staff up the video lines or change the system. I personally would prefer if they just made us do it onsite-I’d be willing to go to someplace specific to “check in”, get the DAS and pick my 2 rides per day-but I haven’t reached the point where it would be impossible for me to do it yet.



Or not even give the two advance DAS each day - wonder why they are doing that in the first place?


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## Belle1962

I can’t speak for Disney but maybe they actually realized that not everyone who has a disability or is traveling with someone with a disability can be online at 7:00 am. Or that they can’t get to a park until later. Or they think somewhere hidden in all the Genie; Genie+ and $ll there might be a potential “access” lawsuit. Or maybe someone just threw it out there and it stuck as “good pr”. Who the he** knows why Disney has been doing anything.


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## Disneylover99

DisneyOma said:


> Not sure why they even have this online registration? The added DAS passes make it much too valuable and that's probably why they are getting overrun with callers. Think it's because they got rid of Fastpass, and this covers their butts somehow?


I think they offered the passes as an incentive for people to pre-register to help alleviate lines at Guest Services in the parks. But I think Disney grossly underestimated how many people would jump on this. I’m surprised they’re still offering the 2 extra passes per day at this point.


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## mamabunny

DisSurfer878 said:


> While I understand what you're saying about being empathetic to CMs and whatnot. I think its unfair to say anyone who has been complaining or venting or frustrated by the new preregistration process is upset with CMs. They are upset with corporate Disney who does not have the program properly staffed, and by Disney's IT/software engineering team whose systems are difficult to use. It's not the CMs actually doing the system that anyone is upset with here on the Dis.





Belle1962 said:


> I’m not upset with the CM’s. You can’t really be upset with Disney IT either if they weren’t given enough resources to fully create this system-which we don’t know if it they were. I AM upset at Disney for creating a system that is not working and those people on the internet who, trying to be helpful, are giving up too much information on why they receive a DAS. With the new system, I think people who had skated by are now desperate for new information on what to say and what reason they might need to indicate for a DAS. Hopefully Disney will get their act together and either staff up the video lines or change the system. I personally would prefer if they just made us do it onsite-I’d be willing to go to someplace specific to “check in”, get the DAS and pick my 2 rides per day-but I haven’t reached the point where it would be impossible for me to do it yet.



So... I'm not upset with the CMs.  I'm not upset with Disney IT, and I certainly understand why everyone is frustrated with the situation.

Personally, I believe that everyone at Disney underestimated the number of people who were going to be determined to get those advanced DAS selections.  Based on anecdotal evidence, it certainly appears that there are some folks who are seeking those not for legitimate reasons, but because they view them as "free" FastPass replacements.

I am frustrated that the situation is literally sucking all the bandwidth out of the (normally) somewhat diverse conversation here; it feels like all we are talking about is DAS, and how to get through on the video calls. I am frustrated that the DAS system is basically under fire by scammers.  I am upset with the situation as a whole, but not the CMs.  They are just doing their jobs. I am not upset with Disney IT.  They were merely working with the parameters given them.  I do personally believe that when it became evident how overwhelmed the system was, Disney should have responded (minimally) with greater staffing levels.

And I am not upset with anyone who is seeking to the use the new system (for legitimate reasons).  I am not upset any with anyone in this thread. 

I *am* sorry that my words were apparently misconstrued, however.

I will refrain from commenting further on DAS, past/present/future, I promise.


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## CBMom01

No system is perfect, and any system perceived as offering advantage will be abused. I’m sure there are people sitting on hold all day all day because they are sure this will be a huge advantage, who will then complain when they realize it isn’t. Forget ‘em and enjoy your trip


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## DisSurfer878

Belle1962 said:


> I’m not upset with the CM’s. You can’t really be upset with Disney IT either if they weren’t given enough resources to fully create this system-which we don’t know if it they were. I AM upset at Disney for creating a system that is not working and those people on the internet who, trying to be helpful, are giving up too much information on why they receive a DAS. With the new system, I think people who had skated by are now desperate for new information on what to say and what reason they might need to indicate for a DAS. Hopefully Disney will get their act together and either staff up the video lines or change the system. I personally would prefer if they just made us do it onsite-I’d be willing to go to someplace specific to “check in”, get the DAS and pick my 2 rides per day-but I haven’t reached the point where it would be impossible for me to do it yet.



Disney's software team is falling apart. They are forcing them a vast majority of them to move from Los Angeles to Florida and so they are quitting like crazy. They are cutting pay in doing so and not providing relocation costs. That's why this reservation system is so bad because THAT specific team is one of the big ones being forced to move, and they have no one to work on because people are quitting like mad.


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## ttintagel

I think it’s probably true that there are a lot more people applying for DAS now who’ve never applied before, and that the elimination of free FP is playing a significant part in those numbers. 

But I’m willing to give _most_ people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do have _some_ need that they used to be able to manage by using FP instead of DAS. And because they haven’t used DAS before, they’re not familiar with what it is and isn’t meant to help with (e.g. mobility/stamina/standing issues).


----------



## Kimly

Online is a great idea I hope it works better in the future. We went this past week and stood in line for 10 mins, renewed our DAS, it was easy, and quick. For now that’s what we will be doing to renew. Waiting hours for 2 pre booked reservations (which is awesome of them, and I’m super grateful Disney is doing this) isn’t worth it for me.


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## charmed59

ttintagel said:


> I think it’s probably true that there are a lot more people applying for DAS now who’ve never applied before, and that the elimination of free FP is playing a significant part in those numbers.



I think the pandemic has also increased the number of people who get extreme anxiety in stagnant crowds.  An offshoot of the pandemic may mean there are more people eligible than before.


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## DisneyOma

charmed59 said:


> I think the pandemic has also increased the number of people who get extreme anxiety in stagnant crowds.  An offshoot of the pandemic may mean there are more people eligible than before.



I second this - as it probably applies to me!  Never used an accommodation before in my life, but after finding out that what I thought was chronic infections was actually  a reaction to stress and anxiety, I got the DAS on our trip this past August, and didn't end up with any horrible symptoms like the ones I had that sent me to the ER on our previous trip. I actually stayed away from Disney for 4 years after that trip, when we used to go 1-2 times a year. I knew my anxiety built up in queues, and we used FP all the time, and I thought I was managing? Anyways, I wasn't, and long story short, I got a DAS, and I didn't end up in the ER this trip. Only had to use First Aid once to do my PT/breathing exercises. So yes, without free FP, I need a DAS to have access to the longer queues that set off my issues.


----------



## MinnieMSue

DisneyOma said:


> I second this - as it probably applies to me!  Never used an accommodation before in my life, but after finding out that what I thought was chronic infections was actually  a reaction to stress and anxiety, I got the DAS on our trip this past August, and didn't end up with any horrible symptoms like the ones I had that sent me to the ER on our previous trip. I actually stayed away from Disney for 4 years after that trip, when we used to go 1-2 times a year. I knew my anxiety built up in queues, and we used FP all the time, and I thought I was managing? Anyways, I wasn't, and long story short, I got a DAS, and I didn't end up in the ER this trip. Only had to use First Aid once to do my PT/breathing exercises. So yes, without free FP, I need a DAS to have access to the longer queues that set off my issues.



i am so glad you figured out how to enjoy the parks now. Hopefully the ER visits are a thing of the past for you


----------



## Wiltony

markpenske said:


> Probably the worst is when people get a scooter or wheelchair just to get some type of advantage. Our last we actually came across a family that was arguing on who turn it was to ride in the wheelchair.
> 
> We’ve spoken to cast members on this issue and they basically told us they are not allowed to question guests and the fact that so many guests are abusing the system they cut back on the assistance. Somewhere along the lines the term “handicap” got lost.





Groot said:


> I think OP is talking about the abusers who BLATANTLY LIE about being disabled in order to get the front of the line privileges. (Example: People who ... fight over who gets to ride in the chair, ...)


Gawd, even this isn't as clear-cut an example of abuse as you think it is.  First of all, DAS wouldn't be granted to these people in the first place because I know it's not for mobility needs.  Second, I was this family, and was really concerned and self-conscious about judgement by people like you -- it seems it was warranted.

So since it seems like I'm required to provide an explanation to ya'll, I guess I will:  after day 3 of an 8-day trip to WDW, my youngest 10-year-old daughter started to develop some massive blisters on her feet.  Too many and too large to just cover up with band-aids.  There was no way she was going to be able to continue walking these long distances for the rest of our stay, so we rented a wheelchair to help shuttle her around the parks.  Well, I (her dad) didn't want to let her use the chair and blisters as an ongoing "crutch" and just sit like a bump-on-a-log the entire trip, so after a day-and-a-half of partial blister healing, I made her get out of the chair and walk short distances, on-and-off, until she needed to return to the chair due to the blisters starting to hurt again.  Instead of leaving the chair empty during these times, we'd let the other kids sit in it and shuttle each other around -- so yes, they'd argue over "whose turn it was to sit in the wheelchair."

I'll have to wear a sign next time to inform all the judgy people that we weren't "abusing the system" by having an occasionally empty wheelchair with us that we were apparently just using as a "shopping cart."  Get bent!


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## SueM in MN

Pretty much the _only_ ‘advantage’ to using a wheelchair or other mobility device is having a place to sit while waiting.

MOST attractions at WDW (and from what I’ve seen, also at Universal) have Mainstream Lines, which means the regular line is wheelchair accessible and guests using mobility devices wait in the same lines with everyone else.
At WDW, most lines are also ECV accessible. For those WDW attractions that are not, guests get a return time to come back to a different location since they can’t use the regular entrance/line. The return time is based on the current wait in the Standby (regular) line. 
People who _see_ guests coming back may assume they entered the line without waiting, but that’s not the real story.

My DD uses a wheelchair every day, in fact most of the time she’s awake, because she can’t walk or stand. There are a lot of full time, every day users like her. 
There are also a lot of people with disabilities/mobility issues who can manage fine in their everyday life without a mobility device or just using one occasionally.
But, WDW is not everyday life. Most people don’t walk 4-9 miles a day several days in a row or in a week. They are not ‘abusers’ or ‘fakers’; they are using tools that are available to meet their needs.


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## Evita_W

ttintagel said:


> I think it’s probably true that there are a lot more people applying for DAS now who’ve never applied before, and that the elimination of free FP is playing a significant part in those numbers.
> 
> But I’m willing to give _most_ people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do have _some_ need that they used to be able to manage by using FP instead of DAS. And because they haven’t used DAS before, they’re not familiar with what it is and isn’t meant to help with (e.g. mobility/stamina/standing issues).



This is a very valid point, interestingly enough, FP and FP+ didn't work well for DH, but when Disneyland introduced MaxPass, that system helped a lot, there were days DAS wasn't needed at all, unless we wanted to do rides that didn't have FP. Unfortunately, I don't see Genie+ working out as well since it is limited to once per attraction per day, as there are some rides we would do multiple times and others we would skip. But for many, FP may have helped.



charmed59 said:


> I think the pandemic has also increased the number of people who get extreme anxiety in stagnant crowds.  An offshoot of the pandemic may mean there are more people eligible than before.


Also quite true and not just is stagnant crowds, but overcrowding as well, I would honestly be shocked if Disney can ever go back to what was considered full capacity without people complaining.


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## CBMom01

Maybe we'd all be happier if, every time folks see someone doing something that looks extra they think: "Those must be rich people who paid for the extra super secret VIP experience!".  Then all we have to worry about is feeling inadequate financially and don't accidentally expend energy thinking someone is abusing a disability accommodation


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## LynJ

We get DAS for my daughter related to her hearing (not giving specifics, but she's qualified). However,  I've had 3 knee surgeries,  an ankle rebuild,  and 2 blood clots causing permanent leg issues.  As a result,  this trip I'll be bringing a rollator, to reduce standing for fireworks,  etc.  If people saw us getting a DAS at a blue umbrella,  I'm sure they would assume it was mobility related,  when my rollator is entirely irrelevant,  but far more visible.


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## bsmcneil

SueM in MN said:


> Pretty much the _only_ ‘advantage’ to using a wheelchair or other mobility device is having a place to sit while waiting.



I know I said this before (maybe in this thread - but I can't recall) - but your comment made me want to reiterate. I worried so much that I would get a lot of grief for using mobility aids on my last trip. I've gotten grief before in lots of venues - and I did get some. But at a certain point on my first day using a manual wheelchair (and this was a solo trip) - I want to say when my hands started bleeding after 45 minutes and I barely made it to one ride, I realized - no one would think, "Hey - this is the way to get over on people!" There wasn't an advantage for me. I couldn't make it up ramps and hills, negating whole parts of the park. The blisters were awful. Add in all of the people stopping, etc and the difficulties and then feeling dumb/weak because you can't work the chair.

Even when I did get an ECV (I had been waitlisted), perhaps it's because I chose a slower speed - but people whizzed past me constantly. I didn't pass anyone with the chair. So, it slowed me down even more (I had it in my mind that people might think - well, he's got an advantage because he can go fast). If anyone is willing to put up with the difficulties of navigating the park using mobility aids, my sense is that they need it to improve, or even allow, their access to the park. I learned on my last trip - I had a major problem on my very first day, halfway through the day (not even rope drop). And I swore that I would not go back to a park for this trip or any other without a mobility aid. And so often, I will chicken out and push on (beyond my limits) - but it was bad enough that I didn't. It wasn't optional.

It is true as SueM wrote - sitting in line is a huge advantage, although I learned that it's not the advantage I once thought. A while back, my then-partner and I were at Target trying to get our phones setup before a trip. The person was taking a long time - complications, etc, etc. But there was this one day window of a really good deal and we were about to travel across country - so we really wanted to get it done. So we waited (and, to be fair to us, they kept saying, "Oh, we should have this wrapped up in 15-20 minutes."). And we waited. After about 45 minutes, I had been moving around and grimacing. I asked my wife - are you not in a surreal amount of pain right now? "No, not at all." However, _my_ hips were on *fire*. Our ordeal lasted almost 6 hours (we did go sit and eat for part of that). I was in so much pain that I could not walk to the car - so we had to grab a wheelchair. Her hips were fine. I have this weird muscular dystrophy thing that also screwed up my hips. To me, not having to stand on them for long periods of time is a life-saver. For my partner, even after all of that time, she was unfazed. But, I'm one of those people that if you looked at me, if you saw me come in walking, you might think - well, he's just getting a wheelchair to be lazy. But I couldn't move my hips enough to walk out of the store (which is sort of what happened in the above paragraph on that first day - my hips locked and I couldn't even sit down. I couldn't rotate them to move. It was terrible).

Anyway. Be as kind and gentle as you can with folks. It may be their first time experiencing this level of pain or something not working. They may be needing to grieve in that exact moment the loss of something they once could do, maybe never could do, or may never do again. If you see some person or family that aren't taking it seriously like you think they ought to - realize they may have a different coping mechanism *OR *try to be okay with the fact that for every person/family in this situation, there are thousands more who struggle to get the help they need or don't go because they don't think they can ask for help (or the help they need isn't available). It's a small price to pay to make the most Magical Place on Earth accessible to as many people as possible.


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## potterfanatic

We will be trying to get a Pass this year and have never tried before. My daughter came down with a neurological issue induced by stress and loss the ability to fully control both her legs. Her neurologist told us that this is something that’s becoming increasingly more and more common in kids and teens as their systems react to the stress of the pandemic and pandemic recovery.


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## DisSurfer878

potterfanatic said:


> We will be trying to get a Pass this year and have never tried before. My daughter came down with a neurological issue induced by stress and loss the ability to fully control both her legs. Her neurologist told us that this is something that’s becoming increasingly more and more common in kids and teens as their systems react to the stress of the pandemic and pandemic recovery.


I say this with love and kindness; if the only problem your daughter has from this neurological disorder is that she struggles to control use of her legs, disney will likely go straight to the "DAS is not for mobility issues" and recommend a wheelchair or stroller. all they will hear is "can't walk". Just something to consider to be prepared in your explanation


----------



## potterfanatic

DisSurfer878 said:


> I say this with love and kindness; if the only problem your daughter has from this neurological disorder is that she struggles to control use of her legs, disney will likely go straight to the "DAS is not for mobility issues" and recommend a wheelchair or stroller. all they will hear is "can't walk". Just something to consider to be prepared in your explanation


Thank you for this! I actually haven’t looked into it a lot since this is a new issue for us and our trip is still a ways out. I thought that to access the wheelchair services she would need to have this pass. So I will actually do some more research and see if it’s even something we do think we’ll need. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, or abuse the system like the thread is talking about.

The main point of my previous post was that her doctor had stated that they’re seeing so many more cases of these stress induced disorders that it’s very likely that many people will legitimately need more assistance. (I’m sure that’s been discussed but I didn’t read all 400+ replies)


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## Starwind

potterfanatic said:


> Thank you for this! I actually haven’t looked into it a lot since this is a new issue for us and our trip is still a ways out. I thought that to access the wheelchair services she would need to have this pass. So I will actually do some more research and see if it’s even something we do think we’ll need. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, or abuse the system like the thread is talking about.
> 
> The main point of my previous post was that her doctor had stated that they’re seeing so many more cases of these stress induced disorders that it’s very likely that many people will legitimately need more assistance. (I’m sure that’s been discussed but I didn’t read all 400+ replies)



WDW has an excellent page with info for guests with mobility disabilities: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/en_CA/guest-services/mobility-disabilities/

Almost all of the attraction lines at WDW are wheelchair accessible, and for the few that are not, there are alternate arrangements for access (eg via the exit) - which you can receive at the entrance to the ride with no need for the DAS.

For reference, this is WDW's page about the DAS: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/en_CA/guest-services/disability-access-service/ The DAS is for "Guests who have difficulty tolerating extended waits in a conventional queue environment due to a disability" - i.e. where being in the line environment itself is an issue. Disney notes "A Guest whose disability is based on the necessity to use a wheelchair or scooter does not need DAS. Depending on the experience, Guests utilizing a wheelchair or scooter will either wait in the standard queue or receive a return time at the attraction that is comparable to the current standby wait. ".

Hope this helps.

SW


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## notatallmagic

Sigh.  Angry mama bear here.

We had our DAS pre-approval experience today.  I may post this in another group as well, but our experience was quite relevant for this forum's topic.

I'll start with the positive stuff - 
1) Both of our chat/texting Cast Members seemed competent, quick, and helpful.
2) We were able to book for our entire 3 day trip; today was 30 days out from the FIRST park day, so that was nice. I had recieved conflicting reports on that issue.
3) I let them know that we would be arriving late the first day, and leaving early on the last day, and they were able to work with that.
4) TIP:  Be SURE to pre-plan your pre-book attraction requests, have your traveling party specified in MDE, and have your Park Reservations and Reservation # ready. They seem to want to move quickly (understandably).

Now the Ugly - 
1) Logged on right a 7am.  At 7:04 the Chat came live, and asked for my List of desired attractions; the Cast Member then came back and asked why I hadn't done my Video Chat - and that was what I had requested! When I explained, they did say they were "transferring" me back into that queue; 
2) Waited just over six hours. The system kept glitching and timing me out; so after my laptop NOT letting me back in, I tried on my phone, and that worked! The very same chat window popped up, so I ended up doing the whole process on my (Samsung) phone. 
3) I filled out the "pre-cert" questionnaire about 4 1/2 hours in; then waited another 90 minutes or so. We also had to pick our attractions again - so what we'd entered the first time must not have "saved" anywhere.
4) MY VERY UN-FAVORITE PART -  My 18 year old kid is the one with the disability.  Diagnosed not quite 2 years ago; multiple Disney trips since then using DAS (and being approved immediately) every time. When we've requested in person, her disability is visually obvious; but likely not obvious on the Video Chat feature (maybe that was the issue?). In any event, the Video Chat Cast Member was simply RUDE, and implied that my daughter didn't qualify for a DAS.  My daughter clearly stated the issues she has that qualify her for DAS; she gave specific examples of park issues we've had when DAS wasn't functioning properly last summer (losing conciousness amoung them)...and the Cast Member continued to say, "sorry, I need MORE!"  Seriously?  
5)  I get that there's abuse of the system, but being super rude to any park guest who has repeatedly used DAS in the past?  Not sure what that's about?  We have only ever used the same traveling group...not sure what the trigger would have been for the harsh treatment.  My kid was in tears. Super sh#$#y treatment by the Cast Member, and totally unnecessary. I was proud of my kid for standing her ground, staying calm, and advocating for herself, but it was really crappy treatment. She was ultimately approved, but it was harsh.

In summary - I felt we needed the advance DAS for our December trip due to the super high anticipated crowd levels.  But we have one more trip before our Annual Passes expire, scheduled for a typically less busy time of year. I'm not sure I'd put my kid through this kind of nastiness again.  We've never had anything but pleasant experiences at the parks getting the DAS in person. I get that these folks are busy, but there's simply no excuse for that level of rudeness.  I was shocked.  Abuse of the system?  I'm sure there is.  But it's not likely to be abused by folks who have REPEATEDLY used DAS in the past; who request medical related resort accomodations, etc.  Epic Disney fail, IMO.


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## jo-jo

notatallmagic said:


> Sigh.  Angry mama bear here.
> 
> We had our DAS pre-approval experience today.  I may post this in another group as well, but our experience was quite relevant for this forum's topic.
> 
> I'll start with the positive stuff -
> 1) Both of our chat/texting Cast Members seemed competent, quick, and helpful.
> 2) We were able to book for our entire 3 day trip; today was 30 days out from the FIRST park day, so that was nice. I had recieved conflicting reports on that issue.
> 3) I let them know that we would be arriving late the first day, and leaving early on the last day, and they were able to work with that.
> 4) TIP:  Be SURE to pre-plan your pre-book attraction requests, have your traveling party specified in MDE, and have your Park Reservations and Reservation # ready. They seem to want to move quickly (understandably).
> 
> Now the Ugly -
> 1) Logged on right a 7am.  At 7:04 the Chat came live, and asked for my List of desired attractions; the Cast Member then came back and asked why I hadn't done my Video Chat - and that was what I had requested! When I explained, they did say they were "transferring" me back into that queue;
> 2) Waited just over six hours. The system kept glitching and timing me out; so after my laptop NOT letting me back in, I tried on my phone, and that worked! The very same chat window popped up, so I ended up doing the whole process on my (Samsung) phone.
> 3) I filled out the "pre-cert" questionnaire about 4 1/2 hours in; then waited another 90 minutes or so. We also had to pick our attractions again - so what we'd entered the first time must not have "saved" anywhere.
> 4) MY VERY UN-FAVORITE PART -  My 18 year old kid is the one with the disability.  Diagnosed not quite 2 years ago; multiple Disney trips since then using DAS (and being approved immediately) every time. When we've requested in person, her disability is visually obvious; but likely not obvious on the Video Chat feature (maybe that was the issue?). In any event, the Video Chat Cast Member was simply RUDE, and implied that my daughter didn't qualify for a DAS.  My daughter clearly stated the issues she has that qualify her for DAS; she gave specific examples of park issues we've had when DAS wasn't functioning properly last summer (losing conciousness amoung them)...and the Cast Member continued to say, "sorry, I need MORE!"  Seriously?
> 5)  I get that there's abuse of the system, but being super rude to any park guest who has repeatedly used DAS in the past?  Not sure what that's about?  We have only ever used the same traveling group...not sure what the trigger would have been for the harsh treatment.  My kid was in tears. Super sh#$#y treatment by the Cast Member, and totally unnecessary. I was proud of my kid for standing her ground, staying calm, and advocating for herself, but it was really crappy treatment. She was ultimately approved, but it was harsh.
> 
> In summary - I felt we needed the advance DAS for our December trip due to the super high anticipated crowd levels.  But we have one more trip before our Annual Passes expire, scheduled for a typically less busy time of year. I'm not sure I'd put my kid through this kind of nastiness again.  We've never had anything but pleasant experiences at the parks getting the DAS in person. I get that these folks are busy, but there's simply no excuse for that level of rudeness.  I was shocked.  Abuse of the system?  I'm sure there is.  But it's not likely to be abused by folks who have REPEATEDLY used DAS in the past; who request medical related resort accomodations, etc.  Epic Disney fail, IMO.




I never needed a pass, so maybe I don't understand.    I would think Disney would have a record of you using the pass in the past.    I don't understand the grief they gave you.   I suppose there are some medical cases that are temporary, like some going through some type of treatment can't spend lots of time in the sun.    But if your child has XYZ and it's not a temporary type illness, again why the grief?   Wouldn't that fall under renewing a pass that some speak of?


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## notatallmagic

jo-jo said:


> I never needed a pass, so maybe I don't understand.    I would think Disney would have a record of you using the pass in the past.    I don't understand the grief they gave you.   I suppose there are some medical cases that are temporary, like some going through some type of treatment can't spend lots of time in the sun.    But if your child has XYZ and it's not a temporary type illness, again why the grief?   Wouldn't that fall under renewing a pass that some speak of?



I sure would have thought so!  Today was shocking!  We have never had an issue; and her condition is chronic and life-long. It was insulting.

I would understand (maybe) if we were adding a bunch of random strangers to our travel group; or had never had the pass before...but as Annual Passholders with the same 3 family members with multiple DAS approvals before?  Just hard to understand.


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## MinnieMSue

Not that this excuses anything but I assume they are being stricter in not allowing mobility issues to get the pass on these calls than they were in the past. So I am sure they are not giving them to people just because they had the pass previously. Again they should not be rude to people but they should make sure that they are appropriately giving the pas. Otherwise we will end up with a situation where lightning lane becomes a long line.


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## SuperJ

for the folks complaining about people who "don't need" a wheelchair because they can walk. i echo the "keep it to yourself because you don't really know" crowd. about 2 years ago, i ended up severely breaking my ankle, requiring emergency surgery and a plate and screws in the ankle. i was not allowed to put any weight on it for 8 weeks.  well, we had a disney trip booked and paid for about 10 weeks after my injury. so, after only 2 weeks of physical therapy walking and speaking with my physician before deciding to go, i rented a scooter, with plans on transferring to a wheelchair for rides when needed because i was in condition to be walking more than a few steps or standing.  my doctor said, if it wasn't walking more than a few steps, i didn't need the "moon boot" and could wear regular shoes. I also had a temporary handicap parking placard. I'm in my 30s.  the first day in the parks, i wore a normal shoe. for anyone seeing me driving past on the scooter, I got all kinds of dirty looks and more than one comment, never directed to me but always near me, about people "abusing the system" or "abusing the handicap parking."  I had to explain to more than one CM at rides requiring a transfer that, yes, I really did need that wheelchair.  We'd also try to request tables near the restaurant door, where the scooter couldn't go in, and that usually took some explaining.  Anyone who saw me transfer or taking those few steps then completely understood, but anyone who saw a visibly healthy 30-something, wearing normal shoes, driving around a scooter, did not.  after that first day, I ended up wearing the boot to "justify" the scooter and the need for a wheelchair and, surprise surprise, the looks and the comments and the questions stopped.  at the end of the day, enjoy YOUR vacation and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.  if someone is really abusing the system, hope that karma will get them and move on. life is way too short and, these days, if you can afford the price of admission, you're fortunate. so enjoy it.


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## SueM in MN

jo-jo said:


> I never needed a pass, so maybe I don't understand.    I would think Disney would have a record of you using the pass in the past.    I don't understand the grief they gave you.   I suppose there are some medical cases that are temporary, like some going through some type of treatment can't spend lots of time in the sun.    But if your child has XYZ and it's not a temporary type illness, again why the grief?   Wouldn't that fall under renewing a pass that some speak of?


We registered our daughter for DAS in person at EPCOT in late October.
She has a lifelong condition and has used DAS since it began in 2013 and used the previous Guest Assistance program before that.

When we went in October, the CM assisting us said everyone was being re-registered and were supposed to be asked the same questions regarding why they needed to wait outside the regular line whether that guest had previously been registered for DAS or not.

She didn’t say why, but I know many people in the past were issued DAS when their  only need was to use a wheelchair/ECV/mobility device in line.


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## CBMom01

I’ll say this:

When we registered and answered the questions, the CM commented on which difficulty (there’s more than one) qualified and which didn’t. I found that both surprising and helpful. Haven’t had that much feedback from CMs in parks.

I won’t share- both for personal reasons and so I don’t accidentally enable abuse -but I did get the impression that the CM had spent a lot of time patiently informing people about what is *not* applicable.

Edited to more accurately say that the CM commented on which of multiple effects/challenges in the same person qualified and which did not.


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## MS_Warrior

Disneylover99 said:


> I think they offered the passes as an incentive for people to pre-register to help alleviate lines at Guest Services in the parks. But I think Disney grossly underestimated how many people would jump on this. I’m surprised they’re still offering the 2 extra passes per day at this point.



I agree. When we’ve been in the parks, the lines for DAS were insane. I think this was just a way to help decrease those lines, but they underestimated the staffing need for this. Perhaps it will improve as Disney works out the bugs.


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## DisneyOma

MS_Warrior said:


> I agree. When we’ve been in the parks, the lines for DAS were insane. I think this was just a way to help decrease those lines, but they underestimated the staffing need for this. Perhaps it will improve as Disney works out the bugs.



Not everyone in line at guest services is there for DAS, are they? I mean, we've been there for a ticket problem, and to get buttons, etc. So, I'm guessing you mean the lines at guest services to get a DAS, not that they had specific DAS lines? Or are there specific ones that I didn't know about? When I got DAS for the first time this past August, there was only one person ahead of me. When I needed to add a guest to my pass, there was no one else there at GS, so perhaps there was no DAS queue then?


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## Lilsia

DisneyOma said:


> Not everyone in line at guest services is there for DAS, are they? I mean, we've been there for a ticket problem, and to get buttons, etc. So, I'm guessing you mean the lines at guest services to get a DAS, not that they had specific DAS lines? Or are there specific ones that I didn't know about? When I got DAS for the first time this past August, there was only one person ahead of me. When I needed to add a guest to my pass, there was no one else there at GS, so perhaps there was no DAS queue then?



Exactly, people use guest services for all kinds of reasons. We should not assume they are for DAS. In fact, those getting a DAS return time are really fast, it is all of the other situations that make the lines long.


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## CBMom01

DisneyOma said:


> Not everyone in line at guest services is there for DAS, are they? I mean, we've been there for a ticket problem, and to get buttons, etc. So, I'm guessing you mean the lines at guest services to get a DAS, not that they had specific DAS lines? Or are there specific ones that I didn't know about? When I got DAS for the first time this past August, there was only one person ahead of me. When I needed to add a guest to my pass, there was no one else there at GS, so perhaps there was no DAS queue then?


At MK, my experience has been that guest services in the park moves much faster for DAS than if you go to the window outside the park.  I think that's because once inside you've eliminated everyone with ticketing/entry issues they're trying to resolve.


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## MS_Warrior

DisneyOma said:


> Not everyone in line at guest services is there for DAS, are they? I mean, we've been there for a ticket problem, and to get buttons, etc. So, I'm guessing you mean the lines at guest services to get a DAS, not that they had specific DAS lines? Or are there specific ones that I didn't know about? When I got DAS for the first time this past August, there was only one person ahead of me. When I needed to add a guest to my pass, there was no one else there at GS, so perhaps there was no DAS queue then?



I guess I didn’t make myself clear. I do understand not everyone is there for a DAS, but if 3/4 of DAS requests could be handled ahead of time, it would still decrease the lines so the wait isn’t so long for everyone else.

I’ve never done a DAS, so I can’t speak to how it works, but I’ve seen insane lines soon after park opening. I don’t know that they have separate queues for the DAS.


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## MS_Warrior

Lilsia said:


> Exactly, people use guest services for all kinds of reasons. We should not assume they are for DAS. In fact, those getting a DAS return time are really fast, it is all of the other situations that make the lines long.



I wasn’t saying the line was all DAS. My comment was they are trying to decrease DAS requests to help with the long lines. I’ve had to wait in those long lines for other things, so I do understand this Is not all for those who are asking for DAS passes.


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## Lilsia

MS_Warrior said:


> I wasn’t saying the line was all DAS. My comment was they are trying to decrease DAS requests to help with the long lines. I’ve had to wait in those long lines for other things, so I do understand this Is not all for those who are asking for DAS passes.



I understand, but many that were in the lines for the blue umbrellas where getting return times. Even setting up DAS does not take that long, unless you are denied then people usually stand there and argue. Setting up DAS takes only a few minutes and reapplying even shorter.


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## usablefiber

Selket said:


> I use an ECV at WDW but not at home.   My badly arthritic knees cannot take that much walking.  However I can park and walk some - even into some attractions back when there was FP.   I don't know what advantage I got other than being able to sit - most lines are mainstreamed.  I've waited longer when I needed to stay in the ECV up until boarding.    It's not obvious how painful my knees are after walking.   I try not to judge anyone I see with a DAS or WC/ECV because I know there are many hidden disabilities.   I can't tell it affects my vacation.
> 
> Maybe more people like me are likely to do a Disney vacation because they can use an ECV?   I know it's the only vacation I enjoy anymore because everywhere we try to go the walking keeps me up in pain much of the night - and I don't get to see all the things I want to see in the daytime.
> 
> I think the handicap parking and support animals are things that exist everywhere and not just Disney so I don't know that the abuse of them is greater there.
> 
> **edited to add that one thing they "used to go out of the way" was to help those with food allergies - the chefs would come out, etc.   However now they have done a great job of making it easier to see what allergens are in what food (for major allergens).  It's nice not to have to call in advance to arrange meals, etc. like I used to have to do for one of my kids.   Rather than curtailing the food service, I think they've made it easier to access the information.





The lighting lanes realky screwed this up in a lot of cases. 

this was a problem for our party as well: My sister prefers not to use the chair but standing in crowded lines for 30 mins in the conjoined lighting lane disabled path is not possible for us: we are totally happy to wait the extra time for our turn based on the queue time we don’t want to jump anyone’s turn, but just can’t physically stand in the line because most of the lighting lanes were backed way up and no disability alternate for many rides. 

we saw way too many people having to navigate their wheel chairs all through the crowded queue mazes in lighting lanes. At RotR at studios l. none of the staff really were sure on how to help us so we had to skip even though we used a return time wait for about 2 hours. 

They can design a trackless ride where lightsaber holograms and virtual elevators and lasers are coming at you in every which way but they can’t incorporate a separate ramp into the loading area. 

they could easily have a quick access ramp hidden from the main entrance quests right to the load on all new rides. 

Hopefully it’s something that disney can work on, or have the cast prepared and trained how to usher those through. don’t want to be too hard on them in this instance as it’s a fixable problem and hopefully they can respond to this feedback


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## DisneyOma

usablefiber said:


> The lighting lanes realky screwed this up in a lot of cases.
> 
> this was a problem for our party as well: My sister prefers not to use the chair but standing in crowded lines for 30 mins in the conjoined lighting lane disabled path is not possible for us: we are totally happy to wait the extra time for our turn based on the queue time we don’t want to jump anyone’s turn, but just can’t physically stand in the line because most of the lighting lanes were backed way up and no disability alternate for many rides.
> 
> we saw way too many people having to navigate their wheel chairs all through the crowded queue mazes in lighting lanes. At RotR at studios l. none of the staff really were sure on how to help us so we had to skip even though we used a return time wait for about 2 hours.
> 
> They can design a trackless ride where lightsaber holograms and virtual elevators and lasers are coming at you in every which way but they can’t incorporate a separate ramp into the loading area.
> 
> they could easily have a quick access ramp hidden from the main entrance quests right to the load on all new rides.
> 
> Hopefully it’s something that disney can work on, or have the cast prepared and trained how to usher those through. don’t want to be too hard on them in this instance as it’s a fixable problem and hopefully they can respond to this feedback



It's too bad that your sister chooses not to use a device that would have given her access, but that is her choice. Disney does not have to give anyone with a mobility issue (cannot stand in the line) a DAS at all, so I'm surprised she got that?


----------



## Lilsia

usablefiber said:


> The lighting lanes realky screwed this up in a lot of cases.
> 
> this was a problem for our party as well: My sister prefers not to use the chair but standing in crowded lines for 30 mins in the conjoined lighting lane disabled path is not possible for us: we are totally happy to wait the extra time for our turn based on the queue time we don’t want to jump anyone’s turn, but just can’t physically stand in the line because most of the lighting lanes were backed way up and no disability alternate for many rides.
> 
> we saw way too many people having to navigate their wheel chairs all through the crowded queue mazes in lighting lanes. At RotR at studios l. none of the staff really were sure on how to help us so we had to skip even though we used a return time wait for about 2 hours.
> 
> They can design a trackless ride where lightsaber holograms and virtual elevators and lasers are coming at you in every which way but they can’t incorporate a separate ramp into the loading area.
> 
> they could easily have a quick access ramp hidden from the main entrance quests right to the load on all new rides.
> 
> Hopefully it’s something that disney can work on, or have the cast prepared and trained how to usher those through. don’t want to be too hard on them in this instance as it’s a fixable problem and hopefully they can respond to this feedback



And yours is the perfect example why DAS does not work for those with mobility issues. They can not guarantee that you won't have a wait. So anyone that has mobility issues needs to help themselves and use a mobility device. There are thousands of people in the parks every day so there is no way that they can accommodate what you are asking for. That is instant, front of the line access. No way is that ever going to happen again. That is what caused all of the abuse issues in the first place. And it is really not the responsibility of ANY business to provide what you are asking for. That would mean that anyone who says that they have mobility issues, got to go directly to the front of the line everyplace. So grandma with bad knees would not have to wait her turn at a restaurant during their busy lunch time, etc. And that would also be like a business being required to provide other aids to those with issues, like glasses. I have a hard time reading small print, should every business that I go to have to provide me with reading glasses or should I bring my own? You see what I am saying here, right?


----------



## Selket

usablefiber said:


> The lighting lanes realky screwed this up in a lot of cases.
> 
> this was a problem for our party as well: My sister prefers not to use the chair but standing in crowded lines for 30 mins in the conjoined lighting lane disabled path is not possible for us: we are totally happy to wait the extra time for our turn based on the queue time we don’t want to jump anyone’s turn, but just can’t physically stand in the line because most of the lighting lanes were backed way up and no disability alternate for many rides.



Hmm...I don't mind taking the ECV into lines that allow it.  I think my bigger problem were the lines that did not allow for an ECV but had a WC to transfer to and I didn't have anyone to push me.   Although I often did use the old FP for those attractions (like Buzz).   I haven't had a problem navigating the ECV in any lines where it is allowed.   I also know if I choose to walk into a line (no ECV or WC)  that the attraction may go down so I'll have to choose to wait it out or leave the line if I don't want to stand for as long as it may require.

I'm sorry she had a bummer of an experience for some rides.  I think it sounds like she would benefit from using an ECV or a WC.   

I still prefer the old FP system - it was free - but will probably end up paying for LL for at least one day to see if it works for me.   I have additional medical issues (not mobility related) so I'll see how it goes.  Low crowds would be nice - haha!


----------



## Marygoodnight007

It’s the end result of Disney’s only 2 categories of disabilities Mobility or Sensory. It’s lacks a lot of nuance and the end up asking people to use a wheel chair or scooter who never have before and who only need them situationally (like long lines) and then have to find something to do with them the rest of the day. Also having staff decide on DAS who are not well versed on the ADA. 
Our issues are temporary and medical so it’s hit or miss if we get DAS renewed (we are AP so we have to do it every 60 days). The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated. But we get told it’s mobility sometimes (it’s not) then the creative work around is to have our stroller tagged as a wheel chair which I hate. There’s not a safe way to put my toddler on a scooter or wheelchair with me and I can’t chase her in line or lift her for very long so the safest place for her is the stroller but then CMs go out of the way because they think I have a disabled child. A child who runs around yet has a wheelchair sticker. You know what would be nice? Some nuance to the policy. Or a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?” At least when we get DAS it doesn’t look so ridiculous. I can carry my child for a short period of time.
It’s more ridiculous that the trams still aren’t running. I ended up being unable to get back to my car  one day and a CM had to drive me back. They told me I could request accessible parking until the trams are back…I don’t have a placard. So…that’s been weird. We aren’t fakers just people who fall into a “at the discretion of the cast member” gray area. However since they have a lot of “medical access overflow” lots now I don’t think that we are the only ones who wouldn’t need accommodation if the trams were running.

I will say I feel for people with permanent disabilities because navigating a temporary one has been rough and embarrassing.


----------



## OurBigTrip

It’s completely incorrect to say that Disney only has accommodations for mobility or sensory issues - they accommodate all sorts of things that don’t fall into either of those categories.

And quite frankly, they aren’t obligated to accommodate any condition that doesn’t meet the definition of disability under the ADA.  They wouldn’t really have to provide accommodations for people with issues that only manifest when they’re at a Disney park.

**edited for typos


----------



## Marygoodnight007

OurBigTrip said:


> And quite frankly, they aren’t obligated to accommodate any condition that doesn’t meet the definition of disability under the ADA.


i think you misunderstand mine falls under the ADA but with that weird language about it not being a disability directly but causing disabilities that fall under the ADA. That makes it confusingly vague. It’s in there but not directly.


----------



## Betty Rohrer

Marygoodnight007 said:


> It’s the end result of Disney’s only 2 categories of disabilities Mobility or Sensory. It’s lacks a lot of nuance and the end up asking people to use a wheel chair or scooter who never have before and who only need them situationally (like long lines) and then have to find something to do with them the rest of the day. Also having staff decide on DAS who are not well versed on the ADA.
> Our issues are temporary and medical so it’s hit or miss if we get DAS renewed (we are AP so we have to do it every 60 days). The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated. But we get told it’s mobility sometimes (it’s not) then the creative work around is to have our stroller tagged as a wheel chair which I hate. There’s not a safe way to put my toddler on a scooter or wheelchair with me and I can’t chase her in line or lift her for very long so the safest place for her is the stroller but then CMs go out of the way because they think I have a disabled child. A child who runs around yet has a wheelchair sticker. You know what would be nice? Some nuance to the policy. Or a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?” At least when we get DAS it doesn’t look so ridiculous. I can carry my child for a short period of time.
> It’s more ridiculous that the trams still aren’t running. I ended up being unable to get back to my car  one day and a CM had to drive me back. They told me I could request accessible parking until the trams are back…I don’t have a placard. So…that’s been weird. We aren’t fakers just people who fall into a “at the discretion of the cast member” gray area. However since they have a lot of “medical access overflow” lots now I don’t think that we are the only ones who wouldn’t need accommodation if the trams were running.
> 
> I will say I feel for people with permanent disabilities because navigating a temporary one has been rough and embarrassing.


I think the CM was talking about medical overflow parking which is usually behind the handicapped and it does not require placard. but that parking area will not help at MK as that parking and the handicapped have an uphill walk to TTC. that area has never had tram service even before covid. hope this helps understand what you were told


----------



## Lilsia

Marygoodnight007 said:


> It’s the end result of Disney’s only 2 categories of disabilities Mobility or Sensory. It’s lacks a lot of nuance and the end up asking people to use a wheel chair or scooter who never have before and who only need them situationally (like long lines) and then have to find something to do with them the rest of the day. Also having staff decide on DAS who are not well versed on the ADA.
> Our issues are temporary and medical so it’s hit or miss if we get DAS renewed (we are AP so we have to do it every 60 days). The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated. But we get told it’s mobility sometimes (it’s not) then the creative work around is to have our stroller tagged as a wheel chair which I hate. There’s not a safe way to put my toddler on a scooter or wheelchair with me and I can’t chase her in line or lift her for very long so the safest place for her is the stroller but then CMs go out of the way because they think I have a disabled child. A child who runs around yet has a wheelchair sticker. You know what would be nice? Some nuance to the policy. Or a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?” At least when we get DAS it doesn’t look so ridiculous. I can carry my child for a short period of time.
> It’s more ridiculous that the trams still aren’t running. I ended up being unable to get back to my car  one day and a CM had to drive me back. They told me I could request accessible parking until the trams are back…I don’t have a placard. So…that’s been weird. We aren’t fakers just people who fall into a “at the discretion of the cast member” gray area. However since they have a lot of “medical access overflow” lots now I don’t think that we are the only ones who wouldn’t need accommodation if the trams were running.
> 
> I will say I feel for people with permanent disabilities because navigating a temporary one has been rough and embarrassing.



Your statement about DAS just being for Sensory issues is not true. There are plenty of other issues that people get DAS for that are not for that. For example, frequent needs to leave the line. The problem with having any mobility issues being given a DAS is that it will open back up the abuse issues that they had in the past. You will see a huge uptick in people renting wheelchairs and ECVs like we had before they changed it. I don't know your issues, but it sounds like you might need another capable adult with you to help you out.


----------



## SueM in MN

Betty Rohrer said:


> *I think the CM was talking about medical overflow parking which is usually behind the handicapped and it does not require placard.* but that parking area will not help at MK as that parking and the handicapped have an uphill walk to TTC. that area has never had tram service even before covid. hope this helps understand what you were told


I think that is what the CM meant also. 
The actual designated handicapped parking are marked with blue painted lines. Parking in one of the marked ones without a permit can result in a heavy fine.
But, just beyond the marked handicapped parking, there are ‘medical overflow’ spots. Those have white painted lines and can be parked in without a handicapped parking permit.
If you don’t have a handicapped parking permit to show, you will need to explain your need to each CM you come to


----------



## Marygoodnight007

Lilsia said:


> Your statement about DAS just being for Sensory issues is not true. There are plenty of other issues that people get DAS for that are not for that. For example, bathroom issues. Anyone that has the frequent and urgent bathroom issues, like Crohn's disease can get a DAS. The problem with having any mobility issues being given a DAS is that it will open back up the abuse issues that they had in the past. You will see a huge uptick in people renting wheelchairs and ECVs like we had before they changed it. I don't know your issues, but it sounds like you might need another capable adult with you to help you out.


I do admit I’m really new to navigating any of this and I was vague. I’m not entirely sure the ins and outs. I was told only sensory issues qualified when I went to renew over the chat. But I suspect it was someone who did not know the ADA well. We usually do not have problems with in person guest services. I may have just gotten a bad person. We’ve had it renewed 2 out of the 3 times we asked but the CM the last time said it was just for sensory issues and the rules changed when they launched. I now think I may have gotten bad info and the silly work around may not have been needed.


----------



## OurBigTrip

Lilsia said:


> I don't know your issues, but it sounds like you might need another capable adult with you to help you out.



I thought the same thing...not much detail, which is perfectly fine, obviously, but it sounded "to me" more like the poster needed assistance handling the child, which shouldn't be a DAS consideration in any way, shape, or form.


----------



## DisneyOma

Marygoodnight007 said:


> It’s the end result of Disney’s only 2 categories of disabilities Mobility or Sensory. It’s lacks a lot of nuance and the end up asking people to use a wheel chair or scooter who never have before and who only need them situationally (like long lines) and then have to find something to do with them the rest of the day. Also having staff decide on DAS who are not well versed on the ADA.
> Our issues are temporary and medical so it’s hit or miss if we get DAS renewed (we are AP so we have to do it every 60 days). The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated. But we get told it’s mobility sometimes (it’s not) then the creative work around is to have our stroller tagged as a wheel chair which I hate. There’s not a safe way to put my toddler on a scooter or wheelchair with me and I can’t chase her in line or lift her for very long so the safest place for her is the stroller but then CMs go out of the way because they think I have a disabled child. A child who runs around yet has a wheelchair sticker. You know what would be nice? Some nuance to the policy. Or a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?” At least when we get DAS it doesn’t look so ridiculous. I can carry my child for a short period of time.
> It’s more ridiculous that the trams still aren’t running. I ended up being unable to get back to my car  one day and a CM had to drive me back. They told me I could request accessible parking until the trams are back…I don’t have a placard. So…that’s been weird. We aren’t fakers just people who fall into a “at the discretion of the cast member” gray area. However since they have a lot of “medical access overflow” lots now I don’t think that we are the only ones who wouldn’t need accommodation if the trams were running.
> 
> I will say I feel for people with permanent disabilities because navigating a temporary one has been rough and embarrassing.



Trying to figure this out - are you saying you get stroller as a wheelchair for your child because you have a disability that keeps you from being able to keep your child with you unless she is in the stroller? That sounds like a good solution. Queues are not the only place where you will face long lines, and just getting through the parks can be like a long line. But if you need a scooter or wheelchair to get around, what do you do with your daughter then? I just can't figure out what you are trying to say here, sorry!


----------



## Betty Rohrer

Marygoodnight007 said:


> It’s the end result of Disney’s only 2 categories of disabilities Mobility or Sensory. It’s lacks a lot of nuance and the end up asking people to use a wheel chair or scooter who never have before and who only need them situationally (like long lines) and then have to find something to do with them the rest of the day. Also having staff decide on DAS who are not well versed on the ADA.
> Our issues are temporary and medical so it’s hit or miss if we get DAS renewed (we are AP so we have to do it every 60 days). The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated. But we get told it’s mobility sometimes (it’s not) then the creative work around is to have our stroller tagged as a wheel chair which I hate. There’s not a safe way to put my toddler on a scooter or wheelchair with me and I can’t chase her in line or lift her for very long so the safest place for her is the stroller but then CMs go out of the way because they think I have a disabled child. A child who runs around yet has a wheelchair sticker. You know what would be nice? Some nuance to the policy. Or a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?” At least when we get DAS it doesn’t look so ridiculous. I can carry my child for a short period of time.
> It’s more ridiculous that the trams still aren’t running. I ended up being unable to get back to my car  one day and a CM had to drive me back. They told me I could request accessible parking until the trams are back…I don’t have a placard. So…that’s been weird. We aren’t fakers just people who fall into a “at the discretion of the cast member” gray area. However since they have a lot of “medical access overflow” lots now I don’t think that we are the only ones who wouldn’t need accommodation if the trams were running.
> 
> I will say I feel for people with permanent disabilities because navigating a temporary one has been rough and embarrassing.


now that I reread your post you sound like me with one of grandsons who was a runner. I could not chase him, will I could chase but couldnt catch him when needed. the stroller tag was life saver for me on a couple of trips with him. so if you need that tag use it. and it also makes you be able to take your stroller in building that do not usually allow strollers


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## TwoMisfits

Marygoodnight007 said:


> It’s the end result of Disney’s only 2 categories of disabilities Mobility or Sensory. It’s lacks a lot of nuance and the end up asking people to use a wheel chair or scooter who never have before and who only need them situationally (like long lines) and then have to find something to do with them the rest of the day. Also having staff decide on DAS who are not well versed on the ADA.
> Our issues are temporary and medical so it’s hit or miss if we get DAS renewed (we are AP so we have to do it every 60 days). The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated. But we get told it’s mobility sometimes (it’s not) *then the creative work around is to have our stroller tagged as a wheel chair which I hate. *There’s not a safe way to put my toddler on a scooter or wheelchair with me and I can’t chase her in line or lift her for very long so the safest place for her is the stroller but then CMs go out of the way because they think I have a disabled child. A child who runs around yet has a wheelchair sticker. You know what would be nice? Some nuance to the policy. Or a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?” At least when we get DAS it doesn’t look so ridiculous. I can carry my child for a short period of time.
> It’s more ridiculous that the trams still aren’t running. I ended up being unable to get back to my car  one day and a CM had to drive me back. They told me I could request accessible parking until the trams are back…I don’t have a placard. So…that’s been weird. We aren’t fakers just people who fall into a “at the discretion of the cast member” gray area. However since they have a lot of “medical access overflow” lots now I don’t think that we are the only ones who wouldn’t need accommodation if the trams were running.
> 
> I will say I feel for people with permanent disabilities because navigating a temporary one has been rough and embarrassing.



The ADA does not require you to get an accommodation you want...just an accommodation that will work.  So, while you may hate the stroller wheelchair tag, it does sound like that accommodation works, which is why Disney could and possibly would deny the DAS.  It's not necessary b/c another accommodation achieves the same equal access.


----------



## lanejudy

usablefiber said:


> The lighting lanes realky screwed this up in a lot of cases.


The “lightning lanes” are just a new name for what has been in place for many years — previously called the FastPass queue.  They were not reconfigured or changed in any manner.




Marygoodnight007 said:


> The ADA classifies me as non disabled but conditions relating to my medical issue could cause disabilities that need to be accommodated.





Marygoodnight007 said:


> i think you misunderstand mine falls under the ADA but with that weird language about it not being a disability directly but causing disabilities that fall under the ADA.


I think you may be stuck on feeling that you fit a definition.  The ADA doesn't actually define specific diagnoses or conditions as disabilities.  The ADA defines a disability as "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities."  This is why WDW doesn't want to know your diagnosis, just what are your needs specifically related to waiting in a standard queue environment or how are you limited in that regard.  Explain your needs.  If they can be met by using a mobility device or the stroller-as-wheelchair tag, that is all WDW has to offer.  The ADA doesn't require DAS to be offered as an accommodation to anyone with a disability if one can safely access attractions with a different accommodation.



Marygoodnight007 said:


> You know what would be nice?...a CM to ask “do you need your stroller with you?”


They can't ask that at an attraction -- too many parents would say "yes" and the loading area would be clogged with strollers.  Maybe you should request stroller-as-wheelchair at Guest Relations instead of requesting DAS?  It sounds like this works well, once you get past thinking others believe your child is disabled.  What others believe shouldn't matter.  As long as the accommodation works for your needs, that's all that matters.  I can assure you that your child is not the only one using a stroller-as-wheelchair tag who is able to get out and run around.


----------



## usablefiber

I also want to make clear my sister opted to be taken through the queue via chair but there was confusion at the entrance and the cast member i think gave us bad info in an isolated instance. We also should have done a better job at preparing and knowing all the info about the process. 

I agree they don’t have to accommodate every and all ailments to skip the lines entirely, and i know they already are putting in a lot of a effort to accommodate disabled guests which is no small feat at parks with dozens of attractions that each need to shuffle thousands of people every hour. Im just saying there are certain things they could improve upon. 

Also we ended up having a great time anyways and got on plenty of attractions without much hassle.


----------



## usablefiber

Once at six flags we were waiting for batman the ride, and a family came through the disability entrance with an older woman in a wheelchair to get on the ride. they went through and about 12 members of their family jumped on the ride cutting the line and the elderly grandmother in the chair wasn’t even riding, they just used her to cut the line. she left her at the load station while they rides. That was pretty lame.


----------



## HopperFan

usablefiber said:


> I also want to make clear my sister opted to be taken through the queue via chair but there was confusion at the entrance and the cast member i think gave us bad info in an isolated instance. We also should have done a better job at preparing and knowing all the info about the process.
> 
> I agree they don’t have to accommodate every and all ailments *to skip the lines entirely,* and i know they already are putting in a lot of a effort to accommodate disabled guests which is no small feat at parks with dozens of attractions that each need to shuffle thousands of people every hour. Im just saying there are certain things they could improve upon.
> 
> Also we ended up having a great time anyways and got on plenty of attractions without much hassle.



The only guests who "skip the lines entirely" are Make a Wish kids. 



usablefiber said:


> Once at six flags we were waiting for batman the ride, and a family came through the disability entrance with an older woman in a wheelchair to get on the ride. they went through and about 12 members of their family jumped on the ride cutting the line and the elderly grandmother in the chair wasn’t even riding, they just used her to cut the line. she left her at the load station while they rides. That was pretty lame.



At my Six Flags there is no disability entrance.  Guests with an Attraction Access Program pass get a return time just like at WDW and then return to either the main entrance or the Flash Pass entrance. So folks in that line may have paid for the access.  But yes, if they were using the AAP then the person holding pass is supposed to ride.


----------



## RamblinWreck

One thing that would probably cut down on a lot of abuse, but wouldn't be popular with the DAS users, would be removing the ability to ride other rides while you are waiting in your virtual queue for another ride.

This sounds like an expensive fix on Disney's end, though, so I doubt they'd even bother thinking about it unless they really thought DAS abuse was becoming so rampant that it was eating away at their Genie+ revenue.


----------



## Meglen

RamblinWreck said:


> One thing that would probably cut down on a lot of abuse, but wouldn't be popular with the DAS users, would be removing the ability to ride other rides while you are waiting in your virtual queue for another ride.
> 
> This sounds like an expensive fix on Disney's end, though, so I doubt they'd even bother thinking about it unless they really thought DAS abuse was becoming so rampant that it was eating away at their Genie+ revenue.


I mean with most lines being long these days if they need a DAS for lines they will be going to the lines with 15-20 min lines which are already not huge issues so shutting them off to them would kinda be mean spirited.


----------



## RamblinWreck

Meglen said:


> I mean with most lines being long these days if they need a DAS for lines they will be going to the lines with 15-20 min lines which are already not huge issues so shutting them off to them would kinda be mean spirited.


It would be the most "equal access" though. 

You want to ride something with a 2 hour line? You wait 2 hours to ride like everyone else. You're still benefiting from being able to roam freely without standing in the line, but you aren't getting to go do 4 attractions while everyone else in the same line as you only gets to do 1. 


I don't think it's cruel, really. If anything it's probably the most fair thing to do. But it would require a lot more tapstiles to be installed, as well as a lot of reworked software. But IMO it would be the most effective way to cut down on the abusers, if they saw a need for it.


----------



## Alan1972

RamblinWreck said:


> One thing that would probably cut down on a lot of abuse, but wouldn't be popular with the DAS users, would be removing the ability to ride other rides while you are waiting in your virtual queue for another ride.
> 
> This sounds like an expensive fix on Disney's end, though, so I doubt they'd even bother thinking about it unless they really thought DAS abuse was becoming so rampant that it was eating away at their Genie+ revenue.


The point is equal access so then everyone using Genie+ should also be banned from riding other rides.


----------



## RamblinWreck

Alan1972 said:


> The point is equal access so then everyone using Genie+ should also be banned from riding other rides.


Why?

DAS users are allowed to pay for Genie+ as well.


----------



## SirDuff

Alan1972 said:


> The point is equal access so then everyone using Genie+ should also be banned from riding other rides.



How do you figure that?  DAS is unrelated to Genie+ and isn’t supposed to be a substitute for it.  It is a substitute for standing in the standby line.


----------



## Alan1972

RamblinWreck said:


> Why?
> 
> DAS users are allowed to pay for Genie+ as well.


but that would be charging the disabled for accommodations. anyway the idea is so ridiculous Disney would never do it so it's not worth arguing about it.


----------



## SirDuff

Alan1972 said:


> but that would be charging the disabled for accommodations. anyway the idea is so ridiculous Disney would never do it so it's not worth arguing about it.



Only if Genie+ were the only option.  It’s not.  We can use Genie+ AND DAS.


----------



## DLgal

Disney does not think DAS abuse is a big problem, simple as that. The system works for them, apparently. They have made it even easier to use. If abuse was such a problem, they would have never shifted to allowing people to book their own return times.


----------



## MediumSizedMermaid

RamblinWreck said:


> It would be the most "equal access" though.
> 
> You want to ride something with a 2 hour line? You wait 2 hours to ride like everyone else. You're still benefiting from being able to roam freely without standing in the line, but you aren't getting to go do 4 attractions while everyone else in the same line as you only gets to do 1.
> 
> 
> I don't think it's cruel, really. If anything it's probably the most fair thing to do. But it would require a lot more tapstiles to be installed, as well as a lot of reworked software. But IMO it would be the most effective way to cut down on the abusers, if they saw a need for it.



Forcing everyone to tap in would cause huge backups on standby lines. (We've all been behind that family in the FP/LL queue who take forever to pull out their cards or use their bands or only use one side instead of both.) So you're going to lose more 'wait time' than you save, I guarantee it. So do you want to wait on longer lines for the sake of 'equality'?

And what if they purchase Genie+? Which someone who can't physically wait in a long line is likely to do. My Dad uses DAS because of his bad back (wheelchair doesn't work because whether sitting or standing, it's being in one physical position for a long time that's the issue) and we've always done Fastpass+/Genie+ as well. We actually use that instead of DAS as much as possible because those systems are open to everyone and we don't want to abuse DAS.


----------



## RamblinWreck

Alan1972 said:


> but that would be charging the disabled for accommodations. anyway the idea is so ridiculous Disney would never do it so it's not worth arguing about it.


How do you figure? The DAS is the accommodation.

Genie+ is a completely separate concept.

I don't think anyone could make a single logical argument that would successfully say it's no longer "equal access" if they were to implement it. Much less that it's somehow "ridiculous" to treat people equally.


At any rate, I don't think you have to worry about it because I don't think there's actually that much abuse of the system, and not enough to make Disney worried about it. But if they did become worried about it, I would put it high on the list of possible solutions that they would likely consider implementing.


----------



## RamblinWreck

MediumSizedMermaid said:


> Forcing everyone to tap in would cause huge backups on standby lines. (We've all been behind that family in the FP/LL queue who take forever to pull out their cards or use their bands or only use one side instead of both.) So you're going to lose more 'wait time' than you save, I guarantee it. So do you want to wait on longer lines for the sake of 'equality'?
> 
> And what if they purchase Genie+? Which someone who can't physically wait in a long line is likely to do. My Dad uses DAS because of his bad back (wheelchair doesn't work because whether sitting or standing, it's being in one physical position for a long time that's the issue) and we've always done Fastpass+/Genie+ as well. We actually use that instead of DAS as much as possible because those systems are open to everyone and we don't want to abuse DAS.


I agree that implementing it would present logistical challenges. But it's not as though the tapstile process moves slower than the actual line does.

Keep in mind that in the fastpass+ days, 75% of all people getting onto every ride were fastpass users, and they were all using the tapstiles as they currently exist, without issue. The standby line moves even slower, so I doubt it would really create an issue in terms of getting people onto rides efficiently.


Edit:

I think on my first read of your post I didn't understand what you were saying about Genie+, but I think I do now.

I don't think it would really affect Genie+, personally.

If you have a Genie+ lightning lane at 3:00 for Splash Mountain, and you try to use DAS at 2:45 on the Seven Dwarves Mine Train with a 120 minute wait, the system would just warn you that getting in this 2 hour line may make you miss your Genie+ time. Just like it would if you actually physically got into that line.


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## Lilsia

RamblinWreck said:


> One thing that would probably cut down on a lot of abuse, but wouldn't be popular with the DAS users, would be removing the ability to ride other rides while you are waiting in your virtual queue for another ride.
> 
> This sounds like an expensive fix on Disney's end, though, so I doubt they'd even bother thinking about it unless they really thought DAS abuse was becoming so rampant that it was eating away at their Genie+ revenue.


I don't think that there is abuse like you think there is. I spent about 6 weeks total time between reopening and Genie+. The lines that the DAS use where almost always empty. Every once in a while you would get a group of maybe 10 people backed up, but it is nothing like how the lines are when it was FP or Genie+. How much abuse can there possibly be when those lines never got any significant amount of people in them? I think that the people that you are seeing filling the lines are Genie+ and not the amount of DAS users as you seem to think. The real issue is that they are overselling Genie+. It is almost 50/50 at this point making it 2 stand by lines.


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## Karin1984

RamblinWreck said:


> I agree that implementing it would present logistical challenges. But it's not as though the tapstile process moves slower than the actual line does.
> 
> Keep in mind that in the fastpass+ days, 75% of all people getting onto every ride were fastpass users, and they were all using the tapstiles as they currently exist, without issue. The standby line moves even slower, so I doubt it would really create an issue in terms of getting people onto rides efficiently.


The problem is that a guest using DAS is not the same as a guest without. For example, those who are using DAS because of sensory overload probably have to take more breaks, inside or outside the park. Because of this they can do less rides than the guest without DAS. so it probably equals out how much everyone can do in one holiday.

We cannot ask Disney to tone done the sensory overload to accomodate these guests, so they have to do it another way. 

They have solved a lot of the abuse by having everyone with mobility issues in the regular line.


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## SirDuff

Karin1984 said:


> The problem is that a guest using DAS is not the same as a guest without. For example, those who are using DAS because of sensory overload probably have to take more breaks, inside or outside the park. Because of this they can do less rides than the guest without DAS. so it probably equals out how much everyone can do in one holiday.
> 
> We cannot ask Disney to tone done the sensory overload to accomodate these guests, so they have to do it another way.
> 
> They have solved a lot of the abuse by having everyone with mobility issues in the regular line.


I get what you are saying, but that isn’t covered by the ADA.  It is equal access to the ride not equal number of rides.


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## RamblinWreck

Karin1984 said:


> The problem is that a guest using DAS is not the same as a guest without. For example, those who are using DAS because of sensory overload probably have to take more breaks, inside or outside the park. Because of this they can do less rides than the guest without DAS. so it probably equals out how much everyone can do in one holiday.
> 
> We cannot ask Disney to tone done the sensory overload to accomodate these guests, so they have to do it another way.
> 
> They have solved a lot of the abuse by having everyone with mobility issues in the regular line.


I don't harbor any ill will toward anyone who has a need to use DAS, and I don't think we should be making it any more difficult for them to use it.

I think Disney currently agrees with that as I don't think they are seeing enough abuse of the system to see a need for a change currently, either.



I know some people with the kind of issues you described. They are local annual passholders who have 2 children who are both autistic and both need a lot of assistance. Just a couple weeks ago they decided to make a day trip to Hollywood Studios. Between DAS, Genie+, and just doing standby on short lines while they waited for other rides, they rode every ride in the park on a day trip.

I think that's great for them. I'd also hardly call it "equal access". And I also don't mind that people with disabilities get that bonus. But I can guarantee you that the bonus of being able to ride other rides while you wait is a big motivating factor for the people who do abuse the system.


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## RamblinWreck

Lilsia said:


> I don't think that there is abuse like you think there is. I spent about 6 weeks total time between reopening and Genie+. The lines that the DAS use where almost always empty. Every once in a while you would get a group of maybe 10 people backed up, but it is nothing like how the lines are when it was FP or Genie+. How much abuse can there possibly be when those lines never got any significant amount of people in them? I think that the people that you are seeing filling the lines are Genie+ and not the amount of DAS users as you seem to think. The real issue is that they are overselling Genie+. It is almost 50/50 at this point making it 2 stand by lines.


Oh I don't think there's that much abuse either.

I was also there in June last year and I felt bad for the DAS people. In the absence of fast passes, everyone assumes anyone getting in that line is on the DAS and it felt like a lot of judgmental eyes were trying to assess whether the people passing by them actually deserved to.


I guess I was just musing on what could be done if they actually did see a ton of abuse and thought it needed to be cut down on.


And I also don't think that any other solutions they would come up with would be very popular among DAS users.


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## DLgal

SirDuff said:


> I get what you are saying, but that isn’t covered by the ADA.  It is equal access to the ride not equal number of rides.



The ADA requires AT LEAST equal access. There is no law that says private companies cannot give people with a disability an advantage as well, *if they want to.*


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## Groot

If anything, Genie+, LL, etc. is gonna cause a resurgence of the disability fakers, instead of those of us who TRULY NEED the DAS.


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## Karin1984

Groot said:


> If anything, Genie+, LL, etc. is gonna cause a resurgence of the disability fakers, instead of those of us who TRULY NEED the DAS.


I doubt that, Genie Plus has been around for a while now, if there truly was an increase in fakers, we would have noticed it by now.


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## Yinn

I’m going to play along here. 

Where is the line drawn? Ok so we say you can’t ride alien saucers while waiting for slinky. Can you go watch the frozen show? No? How about a parade? That’s another form of entertainment. 

Can one go grab food? Or is that not allowed since it’s an activity that someone in line can’t do? Or do we only allow people who’s disability requires access to food?

Maybe we just block out sit down restaurants and sit down shows? Do we get in trouble for limiting options?

If I’m Disney, I’d rather deal with grumblings from the non disabled for not being “fair”  what’s the worst case? It makes the news that we’re treating the disabled with extra care and consideration?  The alternative is much worse.


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## RamblinWreck

Yinn said:


> I’m going to play along here.
> 
> Where is the line drawn? Ok so we say you can’t ride alien saucers while waiting for slinky. Can you go watch the frozen show? No? How about a parade? That’s another form of entertainment.
> 
> Can one go grab food? Or is that not allowed since it’s an activity that someone in line can’t do? Or do we only allow people who’s disability requires access to food?
> 
> Maybe we just block out sit down restaurants and sit down shows? Do we get in trouble for limiting options?
> 
> If I’m Disney, I’d rather deal with grumblings from the non disabled for not being “fair”  what’s the worst case? It makes the news that we’re treating the disabled with extra care and consideration?  The alternative is much worse.


I think you make valid points.

Just to be clear, I wasn’t griping about anything. I was just pointing out that the main draw for the fakers is the ability to hit up more attractions. And also that eliminating that draw wouldn’t exactly harm the purpose of the DAS.

In the more extreme examples that you listed (which are totally fair questions to ask if you go down that line of thinking that I started us on), it starts to feel much more like punishing people for being disabled than anything.

I think that saying “you don’t have to wait in the actual line, and instead can do literally anything in the park except ride other rides while you are in a virtual queue” still sounds like a pretty amazing benefit that would really help a lot of families, but would be less enticing to the fakers.

But I will also concede that I’m not disabled, nor are my immediate family members, so I definitely have some potential blind spots.


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## SueM in MN

RamblinWreck said:


> I think you make valid points.
> 
> Just to be clear, I wasn’t griping about anything. I was just pointing out that the main draw for the fakers is the ability to hit up more attractions. *And also that eliminating that draw wouldn’t exactly harm the purpose of the DAS.*
> 
> In the more extreme examples that you listed (which are totally fair questions to ask if you go down that line of thinking that I started us on), it starts to feel much more like punishing people for being disabled than anything.
> 
> I think that saying “you don’t have to wait in the actual line, and instead can do literally anything in the park except ride other rides while you are in a virtual queue” still sounds like a pretty amazing benefit that would really help a lot of families, but would be less enticing to the fakers.
> 
> But I will also concede that I’m not disabled, nor are my immediate family members, so I definitely have some potential blind spots.


One final post before closing. After 24 pages, it’s not really going anywhere new.…

I don’t agree with the bolded.
I’ll give you our real life experiences to help fill in your blind spots.

People say, “Just get there at rope drop.” Well, we can‘t get to the parks at rope drop because of our daughter’s medical needs. She can’t get herself dressed, brush teeth or hair. In the morning, she needs multiple medications and to have bladder catheterization along with flushing her bladder with sterile water/saline. We need to get her food ready and feed her.
I‘ve seen people post - “how is that different than a toddler? Why should you get benefits we don’t with a toddler?”
Well, the difference is that the toddler will eventually grow up and be able to do things for themself. My daughter won’t.

What do we do while waiting for our DAS Return Times?
- Well, sometimes we do go on some other attraction that has a short wait - that’s not as much of an option since Genie+. The waits are much longer than they were before; even compared to when it was Fastpass Plus. At least in our experience, Genie+ has slowed down the Standby Line a lot (probably boarding more people from the Lightning Lane compared to when it was free Fastpass).

- Most often we spend our wait time feeding her, giving medication or using the restroom - I need to do urinary catheterization on her ever 3.5 to 4 hours. Even though I can do it quickly, our bathroom stops are often 1/2 hour or more because we need to wait for the handicapped stall with a sink that is big enough for a wheelchair and me (usually 1 stall per restroom) or the Companion Restroom.

- if she has a seizure, we might be just sitting someplace letting her sleep (and still might have to leave after she’s rested).

- A long park day for us is about 5 hours, which is sometimes as few as 2 attractions and rarely as many as 4 - that would be a really good day. Her shortest day was about 30 minutes total at EPCOT one day; dad took her back to our resort and I stayed in the park.
We are also pretty limited on what our daughter can do in the parks - if it doesn’t have a wheelchair accessible ride car, we have to lift her in. Some, like Soarin are pretty easy. Some, like Frozen or Splash Mountain are impossible. And, even some of the easy to transfer ones like Slinky Dog or Seven Dwarfs are out because they are too rough.

_ “you don’t have to wait in the actual line, and instead can do literally anything in the park except ride other rides while you are in a virtual queue”_ might sound like an amazing benefit for someone who can actually literally do anything in the park. But, many people using DAS have very limited things they can do and you can only walk around so long in shops


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