# Proof The Rumors Are True!!!  TCD Relocation Plans!



## WannaBeImagineer

Ok so weve all read TCDs great thread about the rumors being true regarding the TCD Ranch being moved, and weve all been waiting for more information about it, well I finally found some, a permit has finally be applied for! 

I found the environmental permit, its not the detailed building or site permit, but it does have some great information. First the code name is East Parcel Development Project (EPDP) Stables. The report was 157 pages long but here are some points of interest:


This application is for the relocation of the stables only
No structure demolition is proposed with this application, only existing fences and shed removal
The project area is 6.42 acres
A new blacksmith shop IS proposed
The new stables are going to be behind the old kennel (north of it)
The stables look to be a nice size, with a good layout for walking around
Looks like the sidewalk is going to go from the existing parking lot and run along side the east side of the old kennel.
Theyre digging a pond to take all the storm water runoff













Oh and did I mention that it looks like someone accidentally included an area that they were not supposed to in this submittal. An area that shows some proposed buildings behind Pioneer Hall! Im not sure how accurate it is but it shows some new building footprints, one strange part though is that it shows one building going into the lake. It also shows a new wood dock and a floating dock. Ill try and post shortly.


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## anolefan

WannaBeImagineer said:


> Oh and did I mention that it looks like someone accidentally included an area that they were not supposed to in this submittal. An area that shows some proposed buildings behind Pioneer Hall! I’m not sure how accurate it is but it shows some new building footprints, one strange part though is that it shows one building going into the lake. It also shows a new wood dock and a floating dock. I’ll try and post shortly.



What a busy morning on the DIS.

I copied this from Debbie's "Choose your Rumor" post from earlier.

_*Everyone agreed that River Country was going to be leveled. What was going in its place was up for grabs. Choices include:

Large food court extending out onto Bay Lake. (This made sense because there were stakes with flags out in the water.)*_

Interesting indeed.

Keep it coming...


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## TheLug

Sweet!!!!!!


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## Tri-circle-D

WOW!!!!

Great find!

This makes sense.

They will build the new stable first, and then move everything there before beginning whatever it is going to be in the old TCD Farm/Pavilion area.

The castmember whom I got most of my information from on my last visit mentioned that the new barn would be "H" shaped.  I guess this one is. Kind of.

Please post more!

TCD


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## BradyBz12

Nice detective work!!!


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## shoreline99

Awesome reporting! can't wait to hear/see more!


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## Lil' Lisa

WannaBeImagineer said:


> Oh and did I mention that it looks like someone accidentally included an area that they were not supposed to in this submittal. An area that shows some proposed buildings behind Pioneer Hall! Im not sure how accurate it is but it shows some new building footprints, one strange part though is that it shows one building going into the lake. It also shows a new wood dock and a floating dock. Ill try and post shortly.




Uh oh!  It's been over 2 hours and no response.  Do you think that the Disney Mafia took him out???


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## WannaBeImagineer

Lil' Lisa said:


> Uh oh! It's been over 2 hours and no response. Do you think that the Disney Mafia took him out???


 
haha Don't worry they haven't got me yet, I just got a little busy, I hate it when work gets in the way of things. 

Ok without further delay, here you go:




Like I said before this was included with the TCD plans and I don't think it was supposed to be, as you can see it is still a work in progress. But I added some
notes of the few things I could make out. I think I'm going to plot this out and see if I can do some shading to make things a little more clear, after work of course...
I'll also and try to get some better zoomed in shots of the evertyhing.

WBI


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## Lil' Lisa

WannaBeImagineer said:


> haha Don't worry they haven't got me yet, I just got a little busy, I hate it when work gets in the way of things.
> 
> Ok without further delay, here you go:
> 
> Like I said before this was included with the TCD plans and I don't think it was supposed to be, as you can see it is still a work in progress. But I added some
> notes of the few things I could make out. I think I'm going to plot this out and see if I can do some shading to make things a little more clear, after work of course...
> I'll also and try to get some better zoomed in shots of the evertyhing.
> 
> WBI


 
Oooh!  Very interesting!!!


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## Tri-circle-D

Whoa!

I think my head is going to explode!!!

You found what we have all been looking for.

Wow!

So, what I see is a bunch of new buildings.

A bunch.

In a semi-circle.

Beginning approximately where the sidewalk is that leads to Clementine's Beach.

Thanks for tipping me off.

I found the document too.

And, there are a ton of interesting things to look at.

For example, here's a close up of the corner of Crockett's Tavern.

You know, where the rocking chairs are?

The marina would be just north of the area depicted here:






This shows the playground.

Do you see what I see?

How about now?

(Look in the little circle area near the center of this photo):






The River Country wagon!

And, just to the right of that there is a cannon!

Defending the Fort!

If we can have a cannon, maybe we can have Musket Mickey back?

TCD


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## WannaBeImagineer

I'm glad you like it TCD! I was wondering if you would be looking for it too. 

Some of the details on the pdf are great others are pretty poor though. Its also confusing the way it shows proposed things on top of the existing,
typically different line types are used to differentiate, but the way its shown it makes me think this is an Architects plan and not a detailed Engineer Site plan. 
I wonder if the old wagons and playground are just shown because they were on the old linework or CAD file and haven't been updated. I figured out that's 
the case near River Country, on this print it shows all the old stuff with the new buildings right over the top of it.

Check it out:


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## liv luvs disney

Oh this is sooo exciting!


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## Tri-circle-D

WannaBeImagineer said:


> I'm glad you like it TCD! I was wondering if you would be looking for it too.
> 
> Some of the details on the pdf are great others are pretty poor though. Its also confusing the way it shows proposed things on top of the existing,
> typically different line types are used to differentiate, but the way its shown it makes me think this is an Architects plan and not a detailed Engineer Site plan.
> I wonder if the old wagons and playground are just shown because they were on the old linework or CAD file and haven't been updated. I figured out that's
> the case near River Country, on this print it shows all the old stuff with the new buildings right over the top of it.




Great job!

I am still trying to decipher this drawing myself.

But, it doesn't show all of the existing River Country improvements.

For example, it doesn't show the Upstream Plunge pool.  Or what remains of the old Pop's Place structure.  At least I don't think it does.

I was looking at this part of the drawing with particular interest:






This shows just two of the old slides, but none of the other River Country improvements.  And, it shows a concrete wall (at least I think it does) which is not there now. 

Are they going to salvage these two slides and have them empty into a pool (before they dumped into the lake)?  It kind of looks like that to me.

This is huge!

Somebody alert the Orlando Business Journal.

And, somebody needs to break this news on the parasite websites that take all of their information from here.

TCD


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## Lil' Lisa

Since the document that the two of you have been referencing is online, can you share the location of it with the rest of us?  My curiosity has gotten the best of me and I would like to take a closer look at it too.

Thanks Bunches!!!


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## medic9016

WannaBeImagineer said:


> I'm glad you like it TCD! I was wondering if you would be looking for it too.
> 
> Some of the details on the pdf are great others are pretty poor though. Its also confusing the way it shows proposed things on top of the existing,
> typically different line types are used to differentiate, but the way its shown it makes me think this is an Architects plan and not a detailed Engineer Site plan.
> I wonder if the old wagons and playground are just shown because they were on the old linework or CAD file and haven't been updated. I figured out that's
> the case near River Country, on this print it shows all the old stuff with the new buildings right over the top of it.
> 
> Check it out:



There are 3 survey flags out in the water in front of RC. I will post a picture as so as I get all my pictures in order from last week. There was also  survey crew behind the boat rental last week. He would not give up any info or really did not know anything.


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## Tri-circle-D

OK, based on WBI's suggestion that existing improvements are shown on the drawing, I looked again for the big remaining pool, and the remnants of the Pop's Place restaurant.

I think this is it:






If this theory is true, then the Fort Wilderness Pavilion should be shown somewhere on the drawing, but I don't see it.

When I first looked at the part of the drawing shown above, I thought that it was the pool for the new resort.  But, it also looks like there is a building around it.  They have never enclosed a pool at any of the WDW resorts.  So, maybe this is supposed to show where the remaining pool is now, and then the footprint of the new building.

So, where will the pool be for this new resort?

It has to have a pool, right?

TCD


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## Tri-circle-D

Lil' Lisa said:


> Since the document that the two of you have been referencing is online, can you share the location of it with the rest of us?  My curiosity has gotten the best of me and I would like to take a closer look at it too.
> 
> Thanks Bunches!!!



Fair enough.

Here you go: 
http://my.sfwmd.gov/cmsdk/content/i...echnical/101021-29c4_epdpstables_pgd79948.pdf

Better take a look quick.

I'll bet it gets taken down soon.

TCD


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## WannaBeImagineer

Tri-circle-D said:


> OK, based on WBI's suggestion that existing improvements are shown on the drawing, I looked again for the big remaining pool, and the remnants of the Pop's Place restaurant.
> 
> I think this is it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this theory is true, then the Fort Wilderness Pavilion should be shown somewhere on the drawing, but I don't see it.
> 
> When I first looked at the part of the drawing shown above, I thought that it was the pool for the new resort. But, it also looks like there is a building around it. They have never enclosed a pool at any of the WDW resorts. So, maybe this is supposed to show where the remaining pool is now, and then the footprint of the new building.
> 
> So, where will the pool be for this new resort?
> 
> It has to have a pool, right?
> 
> TCD


 
I agree TCD that is Pop's place shown, with a new building over the top of it. As far as where the new pool will be I can't find it either, but I think the problem is we can't see the southern most portions of the project. If you look at the bottom of the print you can see two buildings have been cut off. One is on top of the employee boat dock and the other is in the center of the print.

A side note all those numbers strung together through out the project are a mix of exisiting elevations and contours, I was trying to use them to find the new and old pools. In some places you can see where the elevations jump quite a bit, I'm guessing thats some of the rock features of RC. There are some proposed elveations too but they seem to be mostly on new sidewalks.


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## Lil' Lisa

Tri-circle-D said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Here you go:
> http://my.sfwmd.gov/cmsdk/content/i...echnical/101021-29c4_epdpstables_pgd79948.pdf
> 
> Better take a look quick.
> 
> I'll bet it gets taken down soon.
> 
> TCD


 
Thanks TCD!  I was able to download it.  Would you like me to put a copy of it on my webserver?


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## Tri-circle-D

WannaBeImagineer said:


> I agree TCD that is Pop's place shown, with a new building over the top of it. As far as where the new pool will be I can't find it either, but I think the problem is we can't see the southern most portions of the project. If you look at the bottom of the print you can see two buildings have been cut off. One is on top of the employee boat dock and the other is in the center of the print.
> 
> A side note all those numbers strung together through out the project are a mix of exisiting elevations and contours, I was trying to use them to find the new and old pools. In some places you can see where the elevations jump quite a bit, I'm guessing thats some of the rock features of RC. There are some proposed elveations too but they seem to be mostly on new sidewalks.



You make a good point.

We could be looking at only half of the new resort.  Or even less that half.

What we see are the buildings which will have a lake view.

There is still a lot of land to the south of what we see here- in fact the whole TCD ranch area, as well as other space.

Whenever they get around to applying for a permit for that phase of the construction, we will see it all.

This drawing you found shows that they already know exactly what they plan to do.

These separate buildings lined up in a curve remind me of the DVC resort over at AKL.  I think what we see toward the bottom of the drawing are the lobby and other central buildings, and that there might be another row of buildings containing guest rooms to the south of what we are looking at.




Lil' Lisa said:


> Thanks TCD!  I was able to download it.  Would you like me to put a copy of it on my webserver?



If you don't mind doing so, it might be a good idea.

Then you could provide a link in case the one we are looking at disappears.

TCD


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## Lil' Lisa

Tri-circle-D said:


> So, where will the pool be for this new resort?
> 
> It has to have a pool, right?
> 
> TCD


 
What if they aren't considering it to be a new resort, but instead a part of the Fort?  If Deb is right and they are putting in DVC campsites, it wouldn't make sense to add a new pool for 100 or so new campsites.

Just a thought...


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## Tri-circle-D

Lil' Lisa said:


> What if they aren't considering it to be a new resort, but instead a part of the Fort?  If Deb is right and they are putting in DVC campsites, it wouldn't make sense to add a new pool for 100 or so new campsites.
> 
> Just a thought...



Well, I think it's pretty clear from this drawing that what is going close to the lake here is not campsites.  These are buildings.  With stairs and elevators.  If this is a DVC, I cannot imagine them trying to sell these units without a nice, exclusive pool.  As I said above, I think we are only looking at the north half of the new resort.

TCD


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## Lil' Lisa

Here you go: East Parcel Development Project PDF


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## mnsprk

Tri-circle-D said:


> Well, I think it's pretty clear from this drawing that what is going close to the lake here is not campsites.  These are buildings.  With stairs and elevators.  If this is a DVC, I cannot imagine them trying to sell these units without a nice, exclusive pool.  As I said above, I think we are only looking at the north half of the new resort.
> 
> TCD



Or how about a Ft. Themed Resort (value or moderate)?


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## ftwildernessrick

Great work !! 

OK, now we need Shan-man to do an overlay on Google Earth. 

Where are you Shan-man??


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## DaveInTN

Tri-circle-D said:


> These separate buildings lined up in a curve remind me of the DVC resort over at AKL.  I think what we see toward the bottom of the drawing are the lobby and other central buildings, and that there might be another row of buildings containing guest rooms to the south of what we are looking at.


Considering its proximity to the lake, it also reminds me a bit of the Boardwalk.  

I still wonder whether we might see a bit of a recreation of the Hotel Cheyenne concept...with shops and restaurants on the ground floor and villas/rooms above?  It would have an old west town feel, and would blend into the existing Pioneer Hall.  Considering how close they are building it, it will definitely need to blend in.  

If this resort includes additional places to dine and shop, I would personally enjoy that.


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## Lil' Lisa

Tri-circle-D said:


> Well, I think it's pretty clear from this drawing that what is going close to the lake here is not campsites. These are buildings. With stairs and elevators. If this is a DVC, I cannot imagine them trying to sell these units without a nice, exclusive pool. As I said above, I think we are only looking at the north half of the new resort.
> 
> TCD


 
Oops!  Now that I see the whole pdf, I get where everything is.  I was having trouble putting it into perspective before.  So it sounds like the garbage man didn't have the right scoop.  It will be interesting if anyone gets their hands on the rest of the plans!


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## ynottony99

*Wow!!  Talk about hitting the jack-pot. Considering how much use we got out of a flimsy rumor, this is A-Maz-Ing!!! So much info!!! *


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## Elliott

Boy, is this thing close or what?  That end building looks like it sits right on the beach, very visible to the beach and the marina.  Hard to imagine an area w/ this density of improvements/people/parking/etc. this close to the settlement not having a significant impact on the enjoyment of the fort.... maybe for the better, but I remain pessimistic as to that possibility. 

P.S.  Awsome job WBI, "The King is dead...long live the King"
 (just kidding TCD, you are still awesome)


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## WannaBeImagineer

Elliott said:


> P.S. Awsome job WBI, "The King is dead...long live the King"
> (just kidding TCD, you are still awesome)


 
Thanks for the compliments but I could never compete with King TCD! 

I was looking at the new stables a little closer and found some cool things there too. This is the layout of the new blacksmith shop, if I remember correctly it looks just like the old one, you can even see where the flume and anvil will go.








And if you look at the new stable I pointed out a few things:


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## DaveInTN

Tri-circle-D said:


> So, what I see is a bunch of new buildings.
> 
> A bunch.
> 
> In a semi-circle.
> 
> Beginning approximately where the sidewalk is that leads to Clementine's Beach.



I see one major problem with this layout.  

That area where the first building behind Pioneer Hall is depicted is the burial site of Melvin the Moose.  

If they build there, this new resort will likely be terrorized by a Melvin the Moose poltergeist.  

Who in their right mind would pay good money to buy DVC points in a resort haunted by an angry moose?


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## ynottony99

DaveInTN said:


> I see one major problem with this layout.
> 
> That area where the first building behind Pioneer Hall is depicted is the burial site of Melvin the Moose.
> 
> If they build there, this new resort will likely be terrorized by a Melvin the Moose poltergeist.
> 
> Who in their right mind would pay good money to buy DVC points in a resort haunted by an angry moose?



*What?!?!?!  Melvin is dead?????  I didn't even know he was sick!!!!*


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## Lil' Lisa

So now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, so to speak, do you think that there will be a formal announcement soon?


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## Born 2 Fish

Lil' Lisa said:


> So now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, so to speak, do you think that there will be a formal announcement soon?



About Melvin being dead ?? 
I certainly hope so !


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## Lil' Lisa

Born 2 Fish said:


> About Melvin being dead ??
> I certainly hope so !


 
Well, about that too!


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## ftwildernessrick

DaveInTN said:


> I see one major problem with this layout.
> 
> That area where the first building behind Pioneer Hall is depicted is the burial site of Melvin the Moose.
> 
> If they build there, this new resort will likely be terrorized by a Melvin the Moose poltergeist.
> 
> Who in their right mind would pay good money to buy DVC points in a resort haunted by an angry moose?



Was that the burial place of Melvin's head or the body ??


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## DaveInTN

ftwildernessrick said:


> Was that the burial place of Melvin's head or the body ??



Good question.  

Did he even have a body??


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## shoreline99

Looks like a schematic layout. A lot of the design features don't make sense; there are rooms looking at the back of Pioneer Hall for example. and a lot of the site features haven't been addressed yet - like the 12,000 volt line running out to Discovery Island, for example. I too can't believe how close it is to the settlement area. Crazy stuff.

I can't see having a rear entrance so close to Pioneer Hall without a buffer of some type. Gonna have to do some more digging on this though, before I'm convinced its the final layout.


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## Lil' Lisa

ftwildernessrick said:


> Great work !!
> 
> OK, now we need Shan-man to do an overlay on Google Earth.
> 
> Where are you Shan-man??


 
Shan-man may be able to do this better, but I gave it a shot...





I did my best to line things up using the dock and Pioneer Hall. It matches up fairly well, but isn't 100%. So is the dock in the pdf an old configuration, or do you think they are going to change it? If this is a new configuration, do you think they will add a new larger dock, perhaps extending off of the building that juts into the water???

I also think it is interesting how they positioned the buildings behind the trees. Depending on how tall the buildings are, they may be well shielded from the Fort.


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## lisareniff

Hi I'm not a regular on the camping board, mostly hang on the DVC boards, but was pointed to this thread while lurking on WDWMagic.

One thing that clues me in to those being DVC buildings is that you notice that they show a balcony going only over 2/3 of the side of a building on some of the buildings. This would be strange in a normal resort, but would make sense in a DVC.  The 2 bedroom dedicated units would only need 2 balconies in an area that would be similar to 3 resort style rooms.

Strange locations though.


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## anolefan

Lil' Lisa said:


> Shan-man may be able to do this better, but I gave it a shot...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did my best to line things up using the dock and Pioneer Hall. It matches up fairly well, but isn't 100%. So is the dock in the pdf an old configuration, or do you think they are going to change it? If this is a new configuration, do you think they will add a new larger dock, perhaps extending off of the building that juts into the water???
> 
> I also think it is interesting how they positioned the buildings behind the trees. Depending on how tall the buildings are, they may be well shielded from the Fort.



Nice job!  

I love this place!


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## BradyBz12

Y'all are awesome and I am in awe.

I predict a long life for this thread - here and on every rumor board, blog and local media outlet in a 100 mile radius.


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## lisareniff

I'm really not liking how they are positioning the new building to the waters edge ..and beyond.  It is like they are controlling access the interior section of the resort.  The portion of the new building in the center is a common area type building with bathrooms and it looks like an indoor/outdoor fireplace.  It looks like the resort extends to the water on both sides circling this area.

I would rather have a more natural water front with more activities for all three resorts.

_ETA:  Just so you don't label me as a DVC snob.  We camped for many years.  First minimalist with a small tent (not even lawn chairs!) then after our first child we owned the smallest pop-up... until our second child was getting larger and the Bernese Mountain dogs overfill the pop-up.  We may go back to camping one day but are having fun traveling to farther destinations then we would like to pull a camper._


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## I'mDownWithDisney

I almost peed myself looking at this thread. Exciting times at the fort.


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## Lil' Lisa

I'mDownWithDisney said:


> I almost peed myself looking at this thread. Exciting times at the fort.


 
There's a thread for that!  
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2543873


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## Shan-man

Lil' Lisa said:


> Shan-man may be able to do this better, but I gave it a shot...



No, I don't think I could have done much better... very good job Lil Lisa! Man, I'm away for the afternoon and look what happens! 

I wonder if the building over the water will be a stilt building or if they plan to build it on fill? If the later, prepare for LOTS of dump trucks! Also, I'm amazed that they would be planning to put the east-most building THAT close to Pioneer Hall's loading dock.

I can't deny that I'm disappointed that this will be just another DVC resort instead of a campground... pretty boring in that regard. I can only hope this results in a food court that is available for Fort guests.

Finally, there is obviously a good bit more to this resort than this drawing shows. I agree with TCD, there has to be a pool. Also, there is no parking shown, access roads, or gating.


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## Lil' Lisa

Shan-man said:


> No, I don't think I could have done much better... very good job Lil Lisa! Man, I'm away for the afternoon and look what happens!
> 
> I wonder if the building over the water will be a stilt building or if they plan to build it on fill? If the later, prepare for LOTS of dump trucks! Also, I'm amazed that they would be planning to put the east-most building THAT close to Pioneer Hall's loading dock.
> 
> I can't deny that I'm disappointed that this will be just another DVC resort instead of a campground... pretty boring in that regard. I can only hope this results in a food court that is available for Fort guests.
> 
> Finally, there is obviously a good bit more to this resort than this drawing shows. I agree with TCD, there has to be a pool. Also, there is no parking shown, access roads, or gating.


 
Thanks Shan!  I was wondering about the building over the water too.  So dos the outline of these buildings remind anyone else of a train??


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## thecplusplusguy

I have a thought.  Since this was left in as a mistake, is it possible that these buildings aren't even in the place they are supposed to be.  It is awefully weird to be so close to pioneer hall (I wouldn't want a room looking the loading dock there).  Also having the building just kind going off into the water seems a little bit off to me too.

Anyway just a thought,
Dan


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## WannaBeImagineer

thecplusplusguy said:


> I have a thought. Since this was left in as a mistake, is it possible that these buildings aren't even in the place they are supposed to be. It is awefully weird to be so close to pioneer hall (I wouldn't want a room looking the loading dock there). Also having the building just kind going off into the water seems a little bit off to me too.
> 
> Anyway just a thought,
> Dan


 
I think it's definitely a possibility, or maybe this shows what the max footprint could be, when in reality they would only build the middle few buildings. We do things like that a lot, we grab a large building footprint that somewhat fits and put it in as a place holder.

WBI


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## Tri-circle-D

Elliott said:


> Boy, is this thing close or what?  That end building looks like it sits right on the beach, very visible to the beach and the marina.  Hard to imagine an area w/ this density of improvements/people/parking/etc. this close to the settlement not having a significant impact on the enjoyment of the fort.... maybe for the better, but I remain pessimistic as to that possibility.
> 
> P.S.  Awsome job WBI, "The King is dead...long live the King"
> (just kidding TCD, you are still awesome)



I have to agree, this find by WBI is huge!  

I have been checking public records sources periodically for news, but I did not see this.

To quote the mayor:  "TCD is overrated!"



WannaBeImagineer said:


> Thanks for the compliments but I could never compete with King TCD!
> 
> I was looking at the new stables a little closer and found some cool things there too. This is the layout of the new blacksmith shop, if I remember correctly it looks just like the old one, you can even see where the flume and anvil will go.



You are already competing.  And doing quite well, I must say.

I did not notice those details on the barn drawing.  Good job on that.

I agree that it looks like they have a place for the calliope.

Also, from how things are configured, my guess would be that only that small hall with the few stalls will be accessible by the public.  But, it looks like it will give everyone an adequate look at things, while still providing peace and quiet for the horses.



DaveInTN said:


> I see one major problem with this layout.
> 
> That area where the first building behind Pioneer Hall is depicted is the burial site of Melvin the Moose.
> 
> If they build there, this new resort will likely be terrorized by a Melvin the Moose poltergeist.
> 
> Who in their right mind would pay good money to buy DVC points in a resort haunted by an angry moose?



Not to worry.

I heard they hired a witch doctor.

And, I think the burial site is actually to the north of Pioneer Hall.

I think it's depicted in this box on the drawing:






Now that I know where Melvin's head is buried, I am thinking of a late night excavation project- there might be some kazoos in there.  I am going to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark to get myself mentally prepared.



Lil' Lisa said:


> So now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, so to speak, do you think that there will be a formal announcement soon?



If I recall correctly (or IRRC for you acronym fans), they didn't formally announce Bay Lake Tower until the work had already begun (like buildings being torn down).  If this is going to be a DVC, and I suspect it is, then they have a definite timeline that they will follow.  I imagine they want stuff happening on site before they start marketing the property.  There probably isn't much advantage in announcing the project too early.



Lil' Lisa said:


> Shan-man may be able to do this better, but I gave it a shot...



Lisa-  That image is awesome!

Great job! 

Is there any chance that you could post this on your website in a form that we could zoom in on things?  Like on a PDF?



WannaBeImagineer said:


> I think it's definitely a possibility, or maybe this shows what the max footprint could be, when in reality they would only build the middle few buildings. We do things like that a lot, we grab a large building footprint that somewhat fits and put it in as a place holder.
> 
> WBI



Like others have said, I find it very odd that they would go to the expense of constructing a building hanging out over the lake, while there is plenty of available land around.  But, the more I study this, the more I think that this is more than just a hypothetical drawing.  I believe that there are buildings at the Grand Floridian that are built out over the Seven Seas Lagoon.  And, what a view there will be from that building!

Also, upon reflection, I don't think this drawing was submitted in error.  The bottom portion of the drawing indicates that its purpose is to show early relocation of utilities.  The yellow line along the west/left of Pioneer Hall shows something that is to be relocated, and there is a blue box over to the east/right of the playground which appears to show some type of new surface drainage feature (you can see it in the top right of the image I posted right above in this post).

TCD


----------



## Capt. Barbosa

I agree I think the building overlay is just a general idea of where the building placement is going to be since these plans are only for enviromental impact and not for use in the construction of buildings.


----------



## Duane

Hey  I just had a thought.... don't have too many..

Anyway, if these drawings are somewhat accurate, and with the "new" buildings being so close to Pioneer Hall, what do you think of the possibility of Disney reworking the current TE and making it the much requested quick service dining facility, and having a new and improved TE somewhere in the new complex.

Duane


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Capt. Barbosa said:


> I agree I think the building overlay is just a general idea of where the building placement is going to be since these plans are only for enviromental impact and not for use in the construction of buildings.



This was my initial thought.

But, if you look at these, there is so much detail provided that it makes me think that this is more than just a general idea.

Time will tell.




Duane said:


> Hey  I just had a thought.... don't have too many..
> 
> Anyway, if these drawings are somewhat accurate, and with the "new" buildings being so close to Pioneer Hall, what do you think of the possibility of Disney reworking the current TE and making it the much requested quick service dining facility, and having a new and improved TE somewhere in the new complex.
> 
> Duane



Disboarder Des1953 reported a rumor on another thread about both Trail's End and the Settlement Trading Post closing.  Trail's End would then become a gift shop, and I'm not sure what would happen to the Trading Post.

If Trail's End is moved out of Pioneer Hall, then the loading dock could probably be moved away from the new buildings, toward the south side of Pioneer Hall. 

Clearly, the buildings located near the bottom of the drawing look like they have big spaces in them.  DVC properties have a community hall.  Over at Saratoga Springs, the building which contains the lobby also houses a restaurant and tavern.  It looks like something like that would fit in this space:






TCD


----------



## ORLCampers

thecplusplusguy said:


> I have a thought.  Since this was left in as a mistake, is it possible that these buildings aren't even in the place they are supposed to be.  It is awefully weird to be so close to pioneer hall (I wouldn't want a room looking the loading dock there).  Also having the building just kind going off into the water seems a little bit off to me too.
> 
> Anyway just a thought,
> Dan



One great thing about being at the fort (and most campgrounds for that matter) is to enjoy the great outdoors, weather, water, etc. Based on the drawings the one interesting thing would be if the first floor that extends out over the water was a restaurant or quick service spot with outside seating on a dock overlooking the lake! They could even re-locate the rocking chairs from Crocketts out there.  Time will tell


----------



## Tri-circle-D

So, if the Bay Lake and the big cypress trees in the area shown on the drawing are the focus of this resort, what will its theme be?

How does this sound:

Cypress Point Lodge will be a medium-sized hotel facility, located on the south shore of Bay Lake near our Fort Wilderness Campground Resort. Encompassing 550 rooms and 50 log cabins on the beach, Cypress Point Lodge will offer a romantic notion of a turn-of-the-century hunting lodge secluded in a deep forest. Neither the trees nor the buildings dominate the entire area; but blend together in a natural harmony.. One can almost hear the crackling fireplace and feel the large wooden beams offer a haven of security and comfort.

Cypress Point Lodge will also include: two restaurants, a pool, extensive beach, and lake dock. Guests will commute in and out of Cypress Point Lodge by watercraft.

Sounds Disney-ish, right?

Well, Cypress Point Lodge was on the drawing boards at WDW back in 1982.

It was planned for where Wilderness Lodge currently stands.

Here's a drawing showing its proposed location:






And, here are a couple of renderings of the building:











You can find a well written article about this proposed resort which never was built here:  Progress City Article on Cypress Point Lodge

Turn of the century hunting lodge?

Sounds reasonable to me.

TCD


----------



## ynottony99

*The info. I have been given from an insider is that this Vacation Club Resort will not be done based on the original Buffalo Junction plan.  This latest find by TCD does sound like a good fit.  

I suppose this resort could be accessed via the present service road that runs to WL, but I don't know.  We have seen improvements to the rest rooms used by BYBBQ, and recently a nice new sign out front.  I know that the new resort is not opening next year, but would they be making any "improvements" to an area slated to be leveled?

It makes good sense to replace the old barn, and move it up front for easier access by all the visitors to FW.  

With all that said, I guess it still seems hard for me to imagine this resort being plopped down right smack dab against the service side of Pioneer hall, especially with abundant real estate to the South and West.*


----------



## WannaBeImagineer

Tri-circle-D said:


> So, if the Bay Lake and the big cypress trees in the area shown on the drawing are the focus of this resort, what will its theme be?
> 
> How does this sound:
> 
> Cypress Point Lodge will be a medium-sized hotel facility, located on the south shore of Bay Lake near our Fort Wilderness Campground Resort. Encompassing 550 rooms and 50 log cabins on the beach, Cypress Point Lodge will offer a romantic notion of a turn-of-the-century hunting lodge secluded in a deep forest. Neither the trees nor the buildings dominate the entire area; but blend together in a natural harmony.. One can almost hear the crackling fireplace and feel the large wooden beams offer a haven of security and comfort.
> 
> Cypress Point Lodge will also include: two restaurants, a pool, extensive beach, and lake dock. Guests will commute in and out of Cypress Point Lodge by watercraft.
> 
> Sounds Disney-ish, right?
> 
> Well, Cypress Point Lodge was on the drawing boards at WDW back in 1982.
> 
> It was planned for where Wilderness Lodge currently stands.
> 
> Here's a drawing showing its proposed location:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, here are a couple of renderings of the building:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can find a well written article about this proposed resort which never was built here: Progress City Article on Cypress Point Lodge
> 
> Turn of the century hunting lodge?
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> TCD


 
This sounds right on the money! Especially with the way they are positioning it around the Cypress head and out on to the lake. 

I think you're on to somehting TCD, the more I think about it they went to the trouble of putting stakes out in the lake I'm sure they are doing some serious land planning and this drawing is probably more accurate than I first thought.



Tri-circle-D said:


> Also, upon reflection, I don't think this drawing was submitted in error. The bottom portion of the drawing indicates that its purpose is to show early relocation of utilities. The yellow line along the west/left of Pioneer Hall shows something that is to be relocated, and there is a blue box over to the east/right of the playground which appears to show some type of new surface drainage feature (you can see it in the top right of the image I posted right above in this post).


 
I agree, I don't think the drawing was submitted in error because of needing to show the blue catch basin and yellow gas line you mentioned, but I don't think they meant to show so much additional information with this application. I also looked at the construction plans that were submitted and they didn't show anything in that area which is kind of strange.  I guess we'll just have to keep an eye out for new information.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

ynottony99 said:


> *The info. I have been given from an insider is that this Vacation Club Resort will not be done based on the original Buffalo Junction plan.  This latest find by TCD does sound like a good fit.
> 
> I suppose this resort could be accessed via the present service road that runs to WL, but I don't know.  We have seen improvements to the rest rooms used by BYBBQ, and recently a nice new sign out front.  I know that the new resort is not opening next year, but would they be making any "improvements" to an area slated to be leveled?
> 
> It makes good sense to replace the old barn, and move it up front for easier access by all the visitors to FW.
> 
> With all that said, I guess it still seems hard for me to imagine this resort being plopped down right smack dab against the service side of Pioneer hall, especially with abundant real estate to the South and West.*



Tony-

I agree with your observations.  Why spend money improving things that are going to be soon torn down?

There is a new rumor about the Settlement Trading Post getting torn down as a part of this project.  But, they just erected a new sign there.  I guess that if this new rumor is true, the new gift shop in Pioneer Hall could still be called the Settlement Trading Post, and the sign could be re-used there.

However, here is an example of them spending money on something that is about to be torn down . . .

According to this building permit from March, 2010, the new calliope display in the existing barn cost $9000:






The $9000 sounds a bit high.  But, they did remove two horse stalls, and put up dry wall and a new enclosure.  I think there was also heating and AC added.  Even if it wasn't $9K, it was a significant amount to spend on something that is apparently about to be trashed in less than a year from the improvement.

TCD


----------



## Shan-man

I found something interesting:




There is a design for a floating dock, which doesn't currently exist, under the drawing for a building, which doesn't exist. This is in the bottom left of the drawing, so it could be near the employee dock in RC. 

Also, I noticed that the measured water levels were from '79 and '81. I suspect this drawing is from the original Cypress Lodge plans.

BTW, the blue box is labeled "fence" and the contours leading to it suggest the fence surrounds a culvert.


----------



## BayLake Campers

Here is my contribution.




My pictures are not showing up??

here is the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/baylake/5118223096/


----------



## Shan-man

Also, the dock at FW marina in this drawing is not at all like the existing dock. I'm curious if it is drawn according to how the dock looked in '82?


----------



## takeme2epcot

BayLake Campers said:


> Here is my contribution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My pictures are not showing up??
> 
> here is the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/baylake/5118223096/



Very nice.

Notice how the new resort backs up nicely to RC.

It's coming back, folks.

It will be refurbished, but it's coming back.

Mark my words.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Shan-man said:


> I found something interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a design for a floating dock, which doesn't currently exist, under the drawing for a building, which doesn't exist. This is in the bottom left of the drawing, so it could be near the employee dock in RC.
> 
> Also, I noticed that the measured water levels were from '79 and '81. I suspect this drawing is from the original Cypress Lodge plans.
> 
> BTW, the blue box is labeled "fence" and the contours leading to it suggest the fence surrounds a culvert.



Shan-man:

Both of those docks are there currently.

You can see them in this photo:






They are just to the west River Country.

They are off limits to guests, so I haven't been there personally, but I hear you can get there by heading down the dirt road that continues toward Bay Lake past the TCD horse barn.

Since I haven't ever been there, this is just speculation on my part, but the view from there might look a little something like this:















(That might be the floating dock there on the left-but I wouldn't know, since I have never been there).

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind staying in a resort with this view.

TCD


----------



## Tri-circle-D

BayLake Campers said:


> Here is my contribution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My pictures are not showing up??
> 
> here is the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/baylake/5118223096/



I don't know why your photo is not showing up.

It must be a broken link or something.

I hope you don't mind, but I screen-capped it.

It is a really good photo, and I'm sure others would like to see it:






Shan-man, those two docks can be seen at the far left.

Also, this photo helps me understand why I couldn't find the Fort Wilderness Pavilion on the drawing . . . it looks like it is just south of the area depicted in the drawing.

And- from this photo, it looks like I was wrong about the location of the Upstream Plunge pool.  It is also south of where I thought it was.  Are they going to try to refurbish it?  It could be!



Shan-man said:


> Also, the dock at FW marina in this drawing is not at all like the existing dock. I'm curious if it is drawn according to how the dock looked in '82?



I agree with you here.

But, was the dock ever that short?

Maybe Google Earth has some old images?

I will check.



takeme2epcot said:


> Very nice.
> 
> Notice how the new resort backs up nicely to RC.
> 
> It's coming back, folks.
> 
> It will be refurbished, but it's coming back.
> 
> Mark my words.



It does seem that way.

But, doubt it.

We will know when we see the rest of the plans.

TCD


----------



## Lil' Lisa

Tri-circle-D said:


> Lisa- That image is awesome!
> 
> Great job!
> 
> Is there any chance that you could post this on your website in a form that we could zoom in on things? Like on a PDF?


 
I'll give it a shot tonight.  I won't be able to make it a PDF, because believe it or not, I don't have Adobe, but I can certainly put together a much larger image (I went with a screen sized image to make life easier, but I will blow them up really big and see if I can capture them in pieces and put them together again).


----------



## kazlac4

Wow..you guys just amaze me! . I have enough trouble figuring out how to use Facebook, never mind finding and deciphering the future plans of Disney projects! Anyway, once you are all done with this project, maybe you can put your heads together and find that crazed idiot Bin Laden. They way you all work together it should take, oh, maybe a week! You could then split the reward money and each buy a (future?) DVC at the Fort. It's a win-win situation!. Anyway, great job. We are all anxiously awaiting further updates!


----------



## freshlybarked

I know less than nothing about this, but for all of us out there like me I can say without a doubt I am enjoying learning something that I wouldn't get anyplace else.  This is one of the reasons I love the camping boards.  Keep the info coming and I'll try to keep up.


----------



## 3gr8kids




----------



## Tri-circle-D

WannaBeImagineer said:


> I'm glad you like it TCD! I was wondering if you would be looking for it too.
> 
> Some of the details on the pdf are great others are pretty poor though. Its also confusing the way it shows proposed things on top of the existing,
> typically different line types are used to differentiate, but the way its shown it makes me think this is an Architects plan and not a detailed Engineer Site plan.
> I wonder if the old wagons and playground are just shown because they were on the old linework or CAD file and haven't been updated. I figured out that's
> the case near River Country, on this print it shows all the old stuff with the new buildings right over the top of it.
> 
> Check it out:



The new aerial photo overlays posted by others have helped me to look at things differently.

WBI- what you have marked as a proposed sidewalks above is actually the existing boardwalk from River Country.  You can see it here:






TCD


----------



## takeme2epcot

Tri-circle-D said:


> I don't know why your photo is not showing up.
> 
> It must be a broken link or something.
> 
> I hope you don't mind, but I screen-capped it.
> 
> It is a really good photo, and I'm sure others would like to see it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shan-man, those two docks can be seen at the far left.
> 
> Also, this photo helps me understand why I couldn't find the Fort Wilderness Pavilion on the drawing . . . it looks like it is just south of the area depicted in the drawing.
> 
> And- from this photo, it looks like I was wrong about the location of the Upstream Plunge pool.  It is also south of where I thought it was.  Are they going to try to refurbish it?  It could be!
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you here.
> 
> But, was the dock ever that short?
> 
> Maybe Google Earth has some old images?
> 
> I will check.
> 
> It does seem that way.
> 
> But, doubt it.
> 
> We will know when we see the rest of the plans.
> 
> TCD



Ahhh...how about a nice gentleman's wager? Say a nice pina colada at the Poly?


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Tri-circle-D said:


> OK, based on WBI's suggestion that existing improvements are shown on the drawing, I looked again for the big remaining pool, and the remnants of the Pop's Place restaurant.
> 
> I think this is it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this theory is true, then the Fort Wilderness Pavilion should be shown somewhere on the drawing, but I don't see it.
> 
> When I first looked at the part of the drawing shown above, I thought that it was the pool for the new resort.  But, it also looks like there is a building around it.  They have never enclosed a pool at any of the WDW resorts.  So, maybe this is supposed to show where the remaining pool is now, and then the footprint of the new building.
> 
> So, where will the pool be for this new resort?
> 
> It has to have a pool, right?
> 
> TCD



I got this wrong.

The area depicted in this portion of the drawing is not the Upstream Plunge pool or Pop's Place.

It is the area which was known as Indian Springs, and an adjacent building which was a gift shop.

You can see this area in this aerial photo:






We cannot see the Upstream Plunge pool or Pop's Place on the drawing.

TCD


----------



## Tri-circle-D

takeme2epcot said:


> Ahhh...how about a nice gentleman's wager? Say a nice pina colada at the Poly?



What is the bet?

That River Country will be back?

Are you saying all or part?

Open to the public, or just for this new resort?

Tell me what you say is going to happen, and you may be on for the wager.

But, I am not drinking a Pina Colada at the Poly.

Child please.

If we are betting, the drink will be consumed at Crockett's Tavern.

At good old Fort Wilderness!

(at least for now)

And, mine will not have a paper umbrella.

Man's game.

TCD


----------



## BayLake Campers

Hope this helps you out TCD, I displayed the plans over the photo for you.
Good old ArcGIS.


----------



## Elliott

Tri-circle-D said:


> I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind staying in a resort with this view.
> 
> TCD



Speaking of view...I am wondering why the orientation of the proposed buildings doesn't take more advantage of the view of the MK?  Only the end building really has a view in that direction.  Does the CR and BLT block the best views from this point?  I would think that the fireworks we enjoy from the beach would be visible from here.
Now, if you rotated the layout 90 degrees counter-clockwise you could give all rooms (lake side at least) a lake view and take more advantage of the MK views as well.  It would also follow the contour of the lake shore a little better.


----------



## WannaBeImagineer

Tri-circle-D said:


> The new aerial photo overlays posted by others have helped me to look at things differently.
> 
> WBI- what you have marked as a proposed sidewalks above is actually the existing boardwalk from River Country. You can see it here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TCD


 
You're right TCD, now that I'm looking at this aerial it's definitely the existing boardwalk, not proposed sidewalks.

Bay Lake Campers That's a great overlay! Also great job to everyone with all the CAD and GIS work! It really brings it into perspective.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

BayLake Campers said:


> Hope this helps you out TCD, I displayed the plans over the photo for you.
> Good old ArcGIS.



ArcGis?

Gesundheit!

That photo is amazing!

Great job.

It really does put everything into perspective.

But, even with this help, I can't find something that I'm looking for.

This drawing shows existing improvements . . .

But, I can't find the existing River Country ticket window building.

Does anyone see it on the drawing?



Elliott said:


> Speaking of view...I am wondering why the orientation of the proposed buildings doesn't take more advantage of the view of the MK?  Only the end building really has a view in that direction.  Does the CR and BLT block the best views from this point?  I would think that the fireworks we enjoy from the beach would be visible from here.
> Now, if you rotated the layout 90 degrees counter-clockwise you could give all rooms (lake side at least) a lake view and take more advantage of the MK views as well.  It would also follow the contour of the lake shore a little better.



You are right.

All I can think of is that they are emphasizing the view of the Cypress Swamp.
Discovery Island blocks the view of the MK from here.  A little to the west, as you get past Discovery Island, the view is dominated by the Contemporary Resort and Bay Lake Tower.  If the theme of this resort is a turn of the century hunting lodge, the CR/BLT view doesn't work.

And, after looking at BLC's photo, something really jumps out at me . . .

Doesn't the Fort Wilderness Pavilion look like it sits front and center of this whole project?

And, the Upstream Plunge pool sits right behind it.

Maybe the Pavilion isn't going anywhere.

The Backyard BBQ yes.

But not the pavilion.



TCD


----------



## ChrisAlli

This is too exciting.  We just bought into DVC.  We are staying at  Kidani for two nights before moving over to the cabins for one last time, we love it at FW, but woulnd't use points on the cabin.  We would have bought DVC at FW, if they had it.

NOW, instead of looking into adding on at the AKL, maybe we will see what we can find out about this here at the Fort.  Think we'll be able to get anything out of the DVC reps???

I remember sitting outside Soarin a few years ago, talking to a DVC person who was off that day.  He was telling me about a possible new DVC at CR.  Maybe I'll run into someone like that in two weeks!!!


----------



## takeme2epcot

Tri-circle-D said:


> What is the bet?



Here's the bet:

I say River Country will back as follows:

- The original Whoop-'N-Holler body slides will be used
- The original tube ride will be used
- The Upstream Plunge pool will be used
- The Upstream Plunge slides will be used
- The rocks around Upstream Plunge and the body slides will stay
- The old swimming hole *may* be replaced with a traditional swimming pool
- The boom swing, tire swing, and zip line (or equivalents) will be used
- The park will be open to the public for a fee. DVC guests probably get in free
- The park will be named "River Country"




> But, I am not drinking a Pina Colada at the Poly.
> 
> Child please.
> 
> If we are betting, the drink will be consumed at Crockett's Tavern.
> 
> At good old Fort Wilderness!



Fair enough.



> And, mine will not have a paper umbrella.
> 
> Man's game.
> 
> TCD



I am secure enough in my masculinity to drink a froo froo drink, umbrella and all! However, if the drink must be consumed at Crockett's, the winner chooses (within reason, of course).


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Oh, and here's something else I have to contribute.

This is the layout of a famous WDW resort:






Does anyone recognize it?

It's the Animal Kingdom Lodge.

Here's a photo:






The way the buildings on the new drawing are separated and curved reminds me of this.

The cool thing about AKL is that the areas between the buildings are enclosed, and also have outside viewing areas.  It allows you to view the savannahs as you walk the interior halls.  The layout of this new resort looks like it employs the same design concept.

The view of Bay Lake from here is really nice.

And it looks like that will be the emphasis of this portion of the resort.

Maybe some of the old River Country elements will be the emphasis of the part of the resort which we have yet to see.

TCD


----------



## Tri-circle-D

takeme2epcot said:


> Here's the bet:
> 
> I say River Country will back as follows:
> 
> - The original Whoop-'N-Holler body slides will be used
> - The original tube ride will be used
> - The Upstream Plunge pool will be used
> - The Upstream Plunge slides will be used
> - The rocks around Upstream Plunge and the body slides will stay
> - The old swimming hole *may* be replaced with a traditional swimming pool
> - The boom swing, tire swing, and zip line (or equivalents) will be used
> - The park will be open to the public for a fee. DVC guests probably get in free
> - The park will be named "River Country"
> 
> I am secure enough in my masculinity to drink a froo froo drink, umbrella and all! However, if the drink must be consumed at Crockett's, the winner chooses (within reason, of course).



OK.

You are on!

And, I will buy you whatever drink you want at Crockett's if you are right.  If I am right, just a plain old beer will be fine.

Although it would be awesome if what you are predicting happens, I just cannot see it.

Do you have any source of information, or is this wishful thinking on your part?

TCD


----------



## takeme2epcot

It's clear to me that these plans only show half the resort (if that). Look at this image. Notice the resort we can see is horseshoe shaped, facing northeast. Imagine another horseshoe with its mouth opened facing northwest.

Perfect view of MK and fireworks.

The diagram actually suggests it. Look at the building where it's cut off.

The resort will cut right through the existing horse barn.

RC will be right at the center of this second horseshoe, like a Pac Man swallowing RC. So guests here will have a view of MK _and_ RC.


----------



## takeme2epcot

Tri-circle-D said:


> OK.
> 
> You are on!
> 
> And, I will buy you whatever drink you want at Crockett's if you are right.  If I am right, just a plain old beer will be fine.
> 
> Although it would be awesome if what you are predicting happens, I just cannot see it.
> 
> Do you have any source of information, or is this wishful thinking on your part?
> 
> TCD



Deal.

I will reveal my source over the drink/beer at Crockett's when the time comes...


----------



## Tri-circle-D

takeme2epcot said:


> It's clear to me that these plans only show half the resort (if that). Look at this image. Notice the resort we can see is horseshoe shaped, facing northeast. Imagine another horseshoe with its mouth opened facing northwest.
> 
> Perfect view of MK and fireworks.
> 
> The diagram actually suggests it. Look at the building where it's cut off.
> 
> The resort will cut right through the existing horse barn.
> 
> RC will be right at the center of this second horseshoe, like a Pac Man swallowing RC. So guests here will have a view of MK _and_ RC.



Hey new dude. . .

Your revelation has already been discussed by many of us.

This is a discussion board.

So don't just look at the pictures.

See?:




WannaBeImagineer said:


> . . .
> , but I think the problem is we can't see the southern most portions of the project. If you look at the bottom of the print you can see two buildings have been cut off. One is on top of the employee boat dock and the other is in the center of the print.





Tri-circle-D said:


> You make a good point.
> 
> We could be looking at only half of the new resort.  Or even less that half.
> 
> What we see are the buildings which will have a lake view.
> 
> There is still a lot of land to the south of what we see here- in fact the whole TCD ranch area, as well as other space.
> 
> Whenever they get around to applying for a permit for that phase of the construction, we will see it all.
> 
> This drawing you found shows that they already know exactly what they plan to do.
> 
> These separate buildings lined up in a curve remind me of the DVC resort over at AKL.  I think what we see toward the bottom of the drawing are the lobby and other central buildings, and that there might be another row of buildings containing guest rooms to the south of what we are looking at.
> 
> TCD





Tri-circle-D said:


> As I said above, I think we are only looking at the north half of the new resort.
> 
> TCD





Shan-man said:


> Finally, there is obviously a good bit more to this resort than this drawing shows. I agree with TCD, there has to be a pool. Also, there is no parking shown, access roads, or gating.



So, anyway, new dude . . .

Are you saying that the southern portion of this resort will have another row of buildings shaped like a "C"?  Like what we see on the current drawing?

I don't think so.

I think it will be like a backward "C", so that the resort's buildings kind of look like an "H" with its sides curving outward.

I do agree that it looks like this puts some of the remains of River Country in the middle.

And, maybe they will use parts of it for the new resort.

But, not a lot.

And, it won't be open to the public.

TCD


----------



## ynottony99

*Well, maybe I found nothing new, but I found something.  Here is the link:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=28.409143&lon=-81.5671778&z=17&l=0&m=b

And Here I a screen cap from that wikimapia.






Looking at this, I wonder if what we see on the submitted plans, could be left over from Buffalo Junction Days?????  Not to say that would throw all of this out the window.  The scope of  Buffalo Jct. according to this,  makes sense to me, taking advantage of all that lake front.  Most intriguing is that it was laid out to land smack dab against the service side of Pioneer hall.*


----------



## Tri-circle-D

takeme2epcot said:


> Deal.
> 
> I will reveal my source over the drink/beer at Crockett's when the time comes...



Hmmmm.

If your source was any good, why would you even mention the beer?

I am feeling a tall frosty one coming on!

The only problem is that I will probably forget our wager by the time this is all done.

What does your source tell you about when this party is going to get started?

TCD


----------



## ynottony99

*Wow what a resource that map is!!!  It has info. on projects all over WDW!!
For instance look at MK.  Details on the Fantasyland expansion.*


----------



## Tri-circle-D

ynottony99 said:


> *.  Most intriguing is that it was laid out to land smack dab against the service side of Pioneer hall.*



Tony-

Why do you say this?

The screen cap shows the eastern edge of Buffalo Junction stopping at the horse barn, and not including River Country.  I don't see it up against Pioneer Hall.  I don't think that it was ever contemplated that Buffalo Junction would occupy the area of River Country or the TCD Ranch.  So, in that regard, I don't think these are old plans we are looking at.

The area depicted in that photo is huge.  Buffalo Junction would have been a completely separate resort.  For better or worse, this new resort will be an appendage to Fort Wilderness.

TCD


----------



## BayLake Campers

TCD if you follow the path from Clementines beach you will see the shots in the middle where the flower bed is next to the ticket booth. The line work in this are is missing. On another layer and turned off? demolition? it looks like a drawing that is in the middle of being edited. Just my two cents.


----------



## takeme2epcot

Tri-circle-D said:


> Are you saying that the southern portion of this resort will have another row of buildings shaped like a "C"?  Like what we see on the current drawing?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> I think it will be like a backward "C", so that the resort's buildings kind of look like an "H" with its sides curving outward.
> 
> I do agree that it looks like this puts some of the remains of River Country in the middle.



Hey, old dude:

As I wrote previously, like a Pac Man swallowing River Country.

A backwards C, as you describe it.

Did you, perchance, fail to _read_ what I posted on this _discussion board?!?_



> And, it won't be open to the public.
> 
> TCD



We shall see.

Ahhhhh...a new rivalry...I am going to revel in this victory!


----------



## Tri-circle-D

BayLake Campers said:


> TCD if you follow the path from Clementines beach you will see the shots in the middle where the flower bed is next to the ticket booth. The line work in this are is missing. On another layer and turned off? demolition? it looks like a drawing that is in the middle of being edited. Just my two cents.



Thanks.

I saw the oval (kind of) shaped flower bed.

But, I do not see the ticket booth.

Thanks for confirming that it is not there.  I thought I was looking in the wrong place (again).

You are probably right about the drawing being incomplete.

TCD


----------



## Tri-circle-D

takeme2epcot said:


> Hey, old dude:
> 
> As I wrote previously, like a Pac Man swallowing River Country.
> 
> A backwards C, as you describe it.
> 
> Did you, perchance, fail to _read_ what I posted on this _discussion board?!?_



Sorry, but you lost me.

I'm old, after all.

What is Pac Man?

J/K

Seriously, where are you saying the extra row of buildings will go?

The drawing that we are looking at shows what looks like a central type building toward the bottom.

I don't think there would be room for another row of buildings there- those would be right on top of River Country.

I am saying the second row of buildings will be to the south, shaped like a backward "C," with what remains of River Country to the east of that row.

What are you saying?

TCD


----------



## Elliott

I think RC is a goner.  Look at this pic posted by TCD....


Tri-circle-D said:


> TCD


Note where the parking lot is.... inside the second semi-circle.  This allows the community portion of the resort to sit between the wings and be close to transportation, parking, etc..  One would have to assume a similar lay out at this new resort, placing parking right where RC is.



takeme2epcot said:


> and[/I] RC.



If so, where will the parking lot be?


----------



## NLPRacing

Elliott said:


> I think RC is a goner.  Look at this pic posted by TCD....
> 
> Note where the parking lot is.... inside the second semi-circle.  This allows the community portion of the resort to sit between the wings and be close to transportation, parking, etc..  One would have to assume a similar lay out at this new resort, placing parking right where RC is.
> 
> 
> 
> If so, where will the parking lot be?



The parking lot could be on the outside of the "C", like where the stables are now.


----------



## Elliott

NLPRacing said:


> The parking lot could be on the outside of the "C", like where the stables are now.



You could be right.

You probably are right,

but I hope not...

because if you are right that puts the view of this resort from the Pioneer Hall area as a big, ugly expanse of blacktop, plus making River Country (if they did a remodel and kept it as this new resort's pool) inaccessible to anyone outside the resort.


----------



## anolefan

Tri-circle-D said:


> Sorry, but you lost me.
> 
> Seriously, where are you saying the extra row of buildings will go?
> 
> The drawing that we are looking at shows what looks like a central type building toward the bottom.
> 
> I don't think there would be room for another row of buildings there- those would be right on top of River Country.
> 
> I am saying the second row of buildings will be to the south, shaped like a backward "C," with what remains of River Country to the east of that row.
> 
> What are you saying?
> 
> TCD



Just taking a stab at this, but I'm pretty sure you guys are saying the same things, just a bit differently.

That is how I'm interpreting both posts, and I am getting the same picture in my head.


----------



## NLPRacing

Elliott said:


> You could be right.
> 
> You probably are right,
> 
> but I hope not...
> 
> because if you are right that puts the view of this resort from the Pioneer Hall area as a big, ugly expanse of blacktop, plus making River Country (if they did a remodel and kept it as this new resort's pool) inaccessible to anyone outside the resort.



I'm just guessing.  It really depends on how this development is going to turn out.  Will it be it's own resort or will it be more like an extension of FW, like our own "The Villas at Fort Wilderness" or something like that.  If it's an extension of FW, I don't see why the amenities wouldn't be shared between the this new section and the rest of FW.  What if the whole area around Pioneer Hall was redesigned to be more like a FW version of the Boardwalk area and this new section was being built simply to add DVC units to FW. This could be a good thing.


----------



## takeme2epcot

anolefan said:


> Just taking a stab at this, but I'm pretty sure you guys are saying the same things, just a bit differently.
> 
> That is how I'm interpreting both posts, and I am getting the same picture in my head.



Yeah, I think you're right.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

anolefan said:


> Just taking a stab at this, but I'm pretty sure you guys are saying the same things, just a bit differently.
> 
> That is how I'm interpreting both posts, and I am getting the same picture in my head.



No, I don't think so.

TM2E is saying ( I think) that the second row of buildings will be shaped like a backward C (or pacman) with River Country in the mouth.  What I am having trouble visualizing is how that would work, as there isn't room for another row of buildings, which would open up to River Country, if the photo overlays are accurate.

TCD is saying that the second row will be shaped like a backward C with whatever remains of River Country at the back of the C.  I am envisioning a space here- where maybe there will be some elements of River Country used, but not much.

TCD


----------



## ynottony99

Tri-circle-D said:


> Tony-
> 
> Why do you say this?
> 
> The screen cap shows the eastern edge of Buffalo Junction stopping at the horse barn, and not including River Country.  I don't see it up against Pioneer Hall.  I don't think that it was ever contemplated that Buffalo Junction would occupy the area of River Country or the TCD Ranch.  So, in that regard, I don't think these are old plans we are looking at.
> 
> The area depicted in that photo is huge.  Buffalo Junction would have been a completely separate resort.  For better or worse, this new resort will be an appendage to Fort Wilderness.
> 
> TCD


*
I reject your reality and substitute my own.  I think that in all my excitement getting this screen cap, my deficiencies as an investigative journalist came to the fore.  I thought that the plan shown included the area marked RC.  

I don't know if I am in denial or what,  but it just doesn't make sense to me that they would squeeze it right up against and into the existing FW footprint.  Just sayin'  *


----------



## Tri-circle-D

NLPRacing said:


> I'm just guessing.  It really depends on how this development is going to turn out.  Will it be it's own resort or will it be more like an extension of FW, like our own "The Villas at Fort Wilderness" or something like that.  If it's an extension of FW, I don't see why the amenities wouldn't be shared between the this new section and the rest of FW.  What if the whole area around Pioneer Hall was redesigned to be more like a FW version of the Boardwalk area and this new section was being built simply to add DVC units to FW. This could be a good thing.



It would be good if all of the amenities were open to everyone.

Like at WL.

And AKL.

But, over at the Contemporary, they don't allow guests of the Contemporary to have access to Bay Lake Tower.  No access to the roof-top bar.  No access to the pool.  I would expect a similar situation here.  Unless they make the pool really big.  But, if this a DVC, and I bought into it, I am not sure I would want to have everyone from FW and WL using the pool at my resort.  I understand this, and I don't really have a problem with it.  They will need this exclusivity as a marketing tool.

TCD


----------



## Tri-circle-D

ynottony99 said:


> *
> I reject your reality and substitute my own.  I think that in all my excitement getting this screen cap, my deficiencies as an investigative journalist came to the fore.  I thought that the plan shown included the area marked RC.
> 
> I don't know if I am in denial or what,  but it just doesn't make sense to me that they would squeeze it right up against and into the existing FW footprint.  Just sayin'  *



I'm with you, man.

With all of the space between FW and WL, why cram it in here?

Well, the obvious reason is to take advantage of FW's infrastructure.

No new dock.

No new bus route.

Maybe a new restaurant.

And, Bam!

New DVC units to sell.

It's brilliant.

But, not the best news for FW.

TCD


----------



## ynottony99

Tri-circle-D said:


> I'm with you, man.
> 
> With all of the space between FW and WL, why cram it in here?
> 
> Well, the obvious reason is to take advantage of FW's infrastructure.
> 
> No new dock.
> 
> No new bus route.
> 
> Maybe a new restaurant.
> 
> And, Bam!
> 
> New DVC units to sell.
> 
> It's brilliant.
> 
> But, not the best news for FW.
> 
> TCD



*What you say makes sense.  And I guess if they slam it down with it's big ole backside up against FW, that probably won't affect their DVC sales.*


----------



## HockeyKat

Tri-circle-D said:


> It would be good if all of the amenities were open to everyone.
> 
> Like at WL.
> 
> And AKL.
> 
> But, over at the Contemporary, they don't allow guests of the Contemporary to have access to Bay Lake Tower.  No access to the roof-top bar.  No access to the pool.  I would expect a similar situation here.  Unless they make the pool really big.  But, if this a DVC, and I bought into it, I am not sure I would want to have everyone from FW and WL using the pool at my resort.  I understand this, and I don't really have a problem with it.  They will need this exclusivity as a marketing tool.
> 
> TCD



I agree that they will likely use the exclusivity as a marketing tool unless they use it as mini-gate type attraction.   


BW guests can and do use Luna Park even though it is technically in the DVC area.   


Do they let AKL resort guests use the Kidani Village pool?  I don't believe it is key card accessed, now that I think about it, so I guess there is nothing keeping you from doing so.   

I know at BLT and Kidani Village, as a villa guest you are encouraged to use the "main" facility for dining, shopping, etc.   We used the main Contemporary pool when at BLT, although it may not be technically allowed though I believe that it is.  

VWL, BCV, same deal... almost more so even.   Villas are both so close to the main facility and only have the smaller villa pools (although both very nice), that they almost have to use the main buildings.    Your BCV room card works for the SAB "guards" as well as a BC or YC card, as well.


----------



## Lil' Lisa

Here is a large JPG composite.  I set the original PDF to 200%, pieced together the individual screen snips as well as I could, erased the white background as well as I could and added the google map of the appropriate size in the background.  I warn anyone who wants to download this that it is 3.6MB!

Large Composite Image


----------



## I'mDownWithDisney

In regards to the different dock design overlay at the Fort marina, I seem to remember the dock being shorter and having "wings" on each side. I have a vague memory of the little rental boats being on the left side within the "u" shaped portion. Can any of our 30+ yr old members confirm? Of course, I could be out of my mind...it has happened before.


----------



## thecplusplusguy

I was there all through 70's and early 80's, so you'd think I'd remember.  But I can't.

Dan


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

Hi, I'm another lurking DVC member. 

I think a Boardwalk area that welcomed everybody would be fantastic. As for pools, it would be according to the size...if they give us a wonderful Storm-Along-Bay pool, then yeah...come on.  If they put in a quiet pool...well...I guess the DVCers may go to your cool pool.

Here's my wildest dream...Diamond Horseshoe


----------



## UConnJack

Tri-circle-D said:


> I'm with you, man.
> 
> With all of the space between FW and WL, why cram it in here?
> 
> Well, the obvious reason is to take advantage of FW's infrastructure.
> 
> No new dock.
> 
> No new bus route.
> 
> Maybe a new restaurant.
> 
> And, Bam!
> 
> New DVC units to sell.
> 
> It's brilliant.
> 
> But, not the best news for FW.
> 
> TCD



I think you hit the nail on the head with this.  Ever since DVC took off (after building OKW), all the DVC properties have been tied to areas with existing infrastructure.  The one that was proposed at Eagle Pines did not have that infrastructure in place, and they ended up canning it and building SSR on the old Disney Institute property instead.  I dont think this was a mistake just because its close to Pioneer Hall, just the opposite, I think it lends credence.  The final plans will likely change a bit, but I bet this is close to what actually happens.  All the other DVC plans that have been leaked have ended up similar to the final product.  I also bet Disney did not do this by accident.  If they really wanted this completely under wraps, they wouldnt have accidentally included this second drawing, they knew someone would find it.  They may be secretive, but they also want the buzz.  Were being played. 

I also don't see this being anything other than DVC.  DVC has been very lucrative over the last 10 years while Disney has had difficultly keeping hotel occupancy high.  Not to mention the timing is right for them to be planning the next DVC, as they seem to always want at least 1 or 2 resorts selling at any given time.

Hopefully this will be beneficial for both FW and DVC, I fear FW could get the short end of the stick.  Obviously any new restaurants would be open to all WDW guests, but I'd bet any DVC pool would be restricted to DVC guests only.  However, if they revamp RC as part of the resort development, which I wouldn't be surprised if they do because I think DVC would need a centerpiece pool/water play area for it to be successful in this area, I suspect it would be open to both DVC and FW guests since that would be a very large pool/water complex to maintain for only a relatively small number of DVC guests.  For comparison, SAB services three large resorts in YC, BC, and BCV.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Shan-man said:


> Also, the dock at FW marina in this drawing is not at all like the existing dock. I'm curious if it is drawn according to how the dock looked in '82?



OK, Shan-man, I went and took a look at this on Google Earth.

And you are right on the money.

The "leaked" drawing uses the outline of how the dock looked prior to 1999.

The question, of course, is why?

My answer, for now, is: I don't know.

So we are all on the same page, here is screen shot of LL's overlay:






And, if the lines are messing you up, here is a screen shot from Google Earth- this image is from May 2, 2010:






The oldest image available on Google Earth of this area is from February 5, 1995:






This configuration of the dock shown on this 1995 photo matches up with the configuration on the "leaked" drawing.

The next available Google Earth image is from January 6, 1999.  By that time, the dock was extended and the configuration looks like what it does today:






For good measure, here's an April 30, 2002 image, which is a little clearer than the 1999 image:






So what is up with this?

I am guessing that maybe they used old surveys for the parts of the project that aren't going to be affected by the new buildings.

So, does anyone remember there ever being a canon pointing toward the marina?

Here I am thinking that this was going to be something new, and that the River Country water wagon was coming back, but maybe they are on the drawing from an old survey? 

But, I sure don't remember any canon at the Fort.

This is all very, very curious.





HockeyKat said:


> Do they let AKL resort guests use the Kidani Village pool?  I don't believe it is key card accessed, now that I think about it, so I guess there is nothing keeping you from doing so.
> 
> I know at BLT and Kidani Village, as a villa guest you are encouraged to use the "main" facility for dining, shopping, etc.   We used the main Contemporary pool when at BLT, although it may not be technically allowed though I believe that it is.



At AKL, guests of Jambo House (the hotel) are free to use the pool at Kidani (the DVC part), and vice versa.

But at the Contemporary, it is different.  Bay Lake Tower (the DVC part) are welcome to use all of the Contemporary Resort's amenities, including the pool, but Contemporary Resort guests are not permitted to use any of the BLT amenities.  The exclusive amenities were a big selling point for BLT.



Lil' Lisa said:


> Here is a large JPG composite.  I set the original PDF to 200%, pieced together the individual screen snips as well as I could, erased the white background as well as I could and added the google map of the appropriate size in the background.  I warn anyone who wants to download this that it is 3.6MB!
> 
> Large Composite Image



Lisa-  Another fantastic job!

Thank you.

I have already spent a lot of time perusing this composite, and plan to spend some more.

It really is useful for understanding things in perspective.



I'mDownWithDisney said:


> In regards to the different dock design overlay at the Fort marina, I seem to remember the dock being shorter and having "wings" on each side. I have a vague memory of the little rental boats being on the left side within the "u" shaped portion. Can any of our 30+ yr old members confirm? Of course, I could be out of my mind...it has happened before.



Well, if your recollection matches the configuration shown above, and it sounds to me like it does, then I am happy to tell you that you are not out of your mind.

At least not this time.

Congratulations.



Mickey'sApprentice said:


> Hi, I'm another lurking DVC member.
> 
> I think a Boardwalk area that welcomed everybody would be fantastic. As for pools, it would be according to the size...if they give us a wonderful Storm-Along-Bay pool, then yeah...come on.  If they put in a quiet pool...well...I guess the DVCers may go to your cool pool.
> 
> Here's my wildest dream...Diamond Horseshoe



Welcome DVC lurker!

I would love to hear more about your Diamond Horseshoe comment.  Do you mean the show would be brought back here?  

Interesting.

It appears that it would definitely fit.

But, what about the Hoop Dee Doo Review being right next door?



UConnJack said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head with this.  Ever since DVC took off (after building OKW), all the DVC properties have been tied to areas with existing infrastructure.  The one that was proposed at Eagle Pines did not have that infrastructure in place, and they ended up canning it and building SSR on the old Disney Institute property instead.  I dont think this was a mistake just because its close to Pioneer Hall, just the opposite, I think it lends credence.  The final plans will likely change a bit, but I bet this is close to what actually happens.  All the other DVC plans that have been leaked have ended up similar to the final product.  I also bet Disney did not do this by accident.  If they really wanted this completely under wraps, they wouldnt have accidentally included this second drawing, they knew someone would find it.  They may be secretive, but they also want the buzz.  Were being played.
> 
> I also don't see this being anything other than DVC.  DVC has been very lucrative over the last 10 years while Disney has had difficultly keeping hotel occupancy high.  Not to mention the timing is right for them to be planning the next DVC, as they seem to always want at least 1 or 2 resorts selling at any given time.
> 
> Hopefully this will be beneficial for both FW and DVC, I fear FW could get the short end of the stick.  Obviously any new restaurants would be open to all WDW guests, but I'd bet any DVC pool would be restricted to DVC guests only.  However, if they revamp RC as part of the resort development, which I wouldn't be surprised if they do because I think DVC would need a centerpiece pool/water play area for it to be successful in this area, I suspect it would be open to both DVC and FW guests since that would be a very large pool/water complex to maintain for only a relatively small number of DVC guests.  For comparison, SAB services three large resorts in YC, BC, and BCV.



I don't have much to say in response to this, other than it is a very good post.

Your point about this maybe being an intentional leak by Disney is intriguing.

I can see them doing that.

If it was intentional, it would be a way for them to get free feedback from folks who obviously are interested.

So, just in case you are right:

Dear Disney Research Team-  Please move all of this over to the West a bit.  You are crowding in too close to Fort Wilderness, and I don't like it.

Also, if you are going to revive River Country, please make give Fort Wilderness guests the same access as the guests of this new resort.

Also, please give Fort Wilderness a quick serve/food court type restaurant.  Maybe something like Roaring Forks at WL.  And, please don't take away Trail's End- at least not the take out part.

I said please.

Thank you.

TCD


----------



## itch1

I second tcd sentiments !!!
I have been staying at the Fort all my life and I can safely say there has not been a cannon since 1970's


----------



## ftwildernessrick

I don't think they are going to revive any portion of River Country for any use. Too dilapidated, cost too much to rehab, etc.. I can see them using a few token items in the construction of a new pool for the DVC use.

As far as the close distance to FW, it only makes sense to share the same boat dock. It saves them from having to add another boat dock using still more boats or the FW boat having to make an extra stop mad.

And like I had said before, if this was built, it would only make sense to move the main bus transportation back to the Settlement area, but completely redesign it. They would need to straighten out the road that goes towards Creekside to directly connect with Vista Blvd. (restricted access of course). That way the bus service can 'loop' through WL, FW and then back out again


----------



## Shan-man

Ok, following my last blunder, I have spent considerable time working with the PDF, primarily separating the bits into pertinent layers. Now that this is largely done I thought I would play with what might extend beyond the edges of this sheet. As has been mentioned (sorry, I don't recall by whom) the buildings that are cut off appear to be creating a second arc. I thought, what if you build that arc out, what area would it occupy. Interestingly, it matches up neatly with the existing shoreline! See...




Now, I'm not suggesting that they will build a second arc as drawn, but there seems to be some coordination between the shape of the building arc and the shoreline. The red building over the RC dock doesn't seem to relate well to the arc of buildings, and seems to be another block of rooms, so I don't really know what to make of it.


----------



## Shan-man

Also, I agree with FWR that RC is going to be filled-in. The pool is too close to the proposed buildings, the boardwalk and part of the pond are under one, and the rock slides are right up to another. Not to mention the myriad other problems already discussed. It's toast.

And, if the new development ends up anywhere near as big as the arcs in the previous post suggest, then I think this resort will have it's own dock. The smallest I can imagine this resort being (two arcs of the size already drawn, and two stories) would be 160 suites. What's that, nearly 1,000 additional guests using the Fort dock? What if it's 3 stories, and/or has a larger second arc? I've seen lines of guests at the Fort backed up past the rental window in the off-season with just Fort folk.


----------



## thegooftroopfla

that would explain why the barn is being moved also. in the red buildings none interfere with the barn but the blue buildings go right over it. now we are getting creative


----------



## Thumper_ehhhhh

The cannon must be new and to keep us fort rif raf out of the new dvc lol


----------



## UConnJack

ftwildernessrick said:


> I don't think they are going to revive any portion of River Country for any use. Too dilapidated, cost too much to rehab, etc.. I can see them using a few token items in the construction of a new pool for the DVC use.



I less think they would refurbish what is left of RC, rather I think they will build a new water play park in its place that is similar in theme and activity.  I also think it will be an actual pool, and will not be connected to the lake (too many headaches with water quality.)  Considering the footprint of RC is similar to that of SAB, I wouldn't be surprise if they put in a comparable sized pool/water play area.  BVC is arguably the most popular DVC, and I think that is in no small part due to SAB.  

Without a premier pool area, I think they would have a relatively hard time selling this as a DVC.  No offense to FW, I love the area, but with the DVCs thus far being marketed as deluxe resorts, they will have a hard time making "The Villas at Fort Wilderness Campground" fit into the system even if it has full resort amenities.  It's all perception, and I think they will need something extra to make it stand out and overcome perceptions.  I think building RC 2.0 to rival SAB would be the best way, and along with the boat access to MK, I think it would easily stand on it own.


----------



## Shan-man

One more quick image. The partial footprint for the west-most building is a perfect match for another building in the northern arc, so I'd say this is a pretty good hypothetical of that building:






Still doesn't seem to fit with the other arcs, but there it is.


----------



## NLPRacing

UConnJack said:


> I less think they would refurbish what is left of RC, rather I think they will build a new water play park in its place that is similar in theme and activity.  I also think it will be an actual pool, and will not be connected to the lake (too many headaches with water quality.)  Considering the footprint of RC is similar to that of SAB, I wouldn't be surprise if they put in a comparable sized pool/water play area.  BVC is arguably the most popular DVC, and I think that is in no small part due to SAB.
> 
> Without a premier pool area, I think they would have a relatively hard time selling this as a DVC.  No offense to FW, I love the area, but with the DVCs thus far being marketed as deluxe resorts, they will have a hard time making "The Villas at Fort Wilderness Campground" fit into the system even if it has full resort amenities.  It's all perception, and I think they will need something extra to make it stand out and overcome perceptions.  I think building RC 2.0 to rival SAB would be the best way, and along with the boat access to MK, I think it would easily stand on it own.



Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?


----------



## burnsoc

NLPRacing said:


> Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?


BVC should be BCV - Beach Club Villas
SAB - Stormalong Bay the pool at the Beach and Yacht Club resort


----------



## UConnJack

NLPRacing said:


> Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?



No problem.  BCV = Beach Club Villas, SAB = Stormalong Bay


----------



## NLPRacing

burnsoc said:


> BVC should be BCV - Beach Club Villas
> SAB - Stormalong Bay the pool at the Beach and Yacht Club resort





UConnJack said:


> No problem.  BCV = Beach Club Villas, SAB = Stormalong Bay



Thanks! Sometimes I'm acronym challenged. I saw the SAB last time we were there, it was nice. Something like that at FW would be awesome! Hopefully it wouldn't be DVC exclusive. Especially considering what a cabin & campsite cost these days.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

itch1 said:


> I second tcd sentiments !!!
> I have been staying at the Fort all my life and I can safely say there has not been a cannon since 1970's



Thanks for the confirmation on the canon.  I thought it was new also.



ftwildernessrick said:


> I don't think they are going to revive any portion of River Country for any use. Too dilapidated, cost too much to rehab, etc.. I can see them using a few token items in the construction of a new pool for the DVC use.
> 
> As far as the close distance to FW, it only makes sense to share the same boat dock. It saves them from having to add another boat dock using still more boats or the FW boat having to make an extra stop mad.
> 
> And like I had said before, if this was built, it would only make sense to move the main bus transportation back to the Settlement area, but completely redesign it. They would need to straighten out the road that goes towards Creekside to directly connect with Vista Blvd. (restricted access of course). That way the bus service can 'loop' through WL, FW and then back out again



I agree with all of this.

Especially the part about moving the Settlement Bus Stop (to somewhere closer to the current River Country area), and making the Settlement the main bus stop for park transportation.  I still don't understand why they have the buses stop at WL and then travel all the way to the Outpost, when they could just use the internal road to get to the Settlement Bus Stop.



Shan-man said:


> Ok, following my last blunder, I have spent considerable time working with the PDF, primarily separating the bits into pertinent layers. Now that this is largely done I thought I would play with what might extend beyond the edges of this sheet. As has been mentioned (sorry, I don't recall by whom) the buildings that are cut off appear to be creating a second arc. I thought, what if you build that arc out, what area would it occupy. Interestingly, it matches up neatly with the existing shoreline! See...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I'm not suggesting that they will build a second arc as drawn, but there seems to be some coordination between the shape of the building arc and the shoreline. The red building over the RC dock doesn't seem to relate well to the arc of buildings, and seems to be another block of rooms, so I don't really know what to make of it.



Whoa Daddy!

You don't think small, do you.

That would be a huge resort.

If this was the design, what about parking?

I think you can't dismiss that little remnant of a building there by the docks just to the West of River Country.  This is where I am thinking a row of buildings will end.



Thumper_ehhhhh said:


> The cannon must be new and to keep us fort rif raf out of the new dvc lol







Shan-man said:


> One more quick image. The partial footprint for the west-most building is a perfect match for another building in the northern arc, so I'd say this is a pretty good hypothetical of that building:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still doesn't seem to fit with the other arcs, but there it is.



Shanman-

What if this building was the end of a second arc that was kind of a mirror image of the first?  It would curve the opposite way of the Northern arc.  Fort Wilderness Pavilion, the Upstream Plunge, and the new lodge type building would be in the center of these two arcs.  Parking and such could be in the area of the current TCD Farm/Ranch.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see the buildings be 4+ stories high.

Why not?

WL and the VWL are pretty tall.



NLPRacing said:


> Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?



I know SAB refers to Storm Along Bay- the big pool shared by the Yacht and Beach Club resort.   It is like a water park.  Very nice.

I believe BVC refers to Beach Club Villas (maybe it's supposed to be BCV?).  This is the DVC portion of the Beach Club Resort.

TCD


----------



## TheLug

Sweet!!!!!!


----------



## Shan-man

Tri-circle-D said:


> You don't think small, do you.
> That would be a huge resort.
> If this was the design, what about parking?
> I think you can't dismiss that little remnant of a building there by the docks just to the West of River Country.  This is where I am thinking a row of buildings will end.
> ...
> What if this building was the end of a second arc that was kind of a mirror image of the first?  It would curve the opposite way of the Northern arc.  Fort Wilderness Pavilion, the Upstream Plunge, and the new lodge type building would be in the center of these two arcs.  Parking and such could be in the area of the current TCD Farm/Ranch.



Oh I agree, I really don't think they would be building the full circle, but I thought the match of the arcs seemed too close to be coincidence. As far as the building over the RC dock, if it were the terminus of a second arc (and I agree the angle may suggest that), then the question becomes "what's the idea with the partial building to the SE of the lodge?" It is clearly the same design as the other resort suite buildings. And where is the grand entrance and registration? They need to relate to the parking, wherever that is.


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

Welcome DVC lurker!

I would love to hear more about your Diamond Horseshoe comment.  Do you mean the show would be brought back here?  

Interesting.

It appears that it would definitely fit.

But, what about the Hoop Dee Doo Review being right next door?

Thanks!

I definitely see an Old West type atmosphere very similar to the "street" section of frontierland. Using the boardwalk example, the store fronts could have a gift shop, restaurants, maybe an arcade, etc. 

My other inspiration for all of this is the main area of Dixie Landings that has the water wheel. 

I agree that there is a conflict with having a Diamond Horseshoe show AND Hoop Dee Doo.  However, I think Disney could come up with something appropriate. Boardwalk has Jellyrolls, while Dixie Landings has Yee Haw Bob. Both of these "shows" are first come first serve bars. Yee Haw Bob is family friendly, while Jellyrolls is 21 to enter. So...long story short...use the Nightclub model, and not the Dinner Show model. (A saloon would fit into that model afterall.) 

I am concerned about putting an Old West resort on water. How does that work? I mean old San Francisco or San Diego doesn't quite fit. Do you make it a Tom Sawyer, Big River theme? Do you make it Memphis or St. Louis?  Maybe, it will be Hanibal Missouri.

The only part that I really don't like about all of this is the prices that DVC have been astronomical lately. I love the idea...I just can't imagine paying $120 points for it. (I'm not willing to pay $120/pt. for ANY Resort ANYWHERE)

I think it would be a lot of fun to mix and mingle with our Fort Friends while staying at DVC.


----------



## UConnJack

Shan-man said:


> Oh I agree, I really don't think they would be building the full circle, but I thought the match of the arcs seemed too close to be coincidence. As far as the building over the RC dock, if it were the terminus of a second arc (and I agree the angle may suggest that), then the question becomes "what's the idea with the partial building to the SE of the lodge?" It is clearly the same design as the other resort suite buildings. And where is the grand entrance and registration? They need to relate to the parking, wherever that is.




Who knows what they will build, but its fun being an armchair quarterback.  While I would love to play with this in AutoCAD myself, my employer may have an issue with me taking a license to play with this at work for a few hours.  Instead, I sketched what I envision using your image.






It wouldn't be huge like AKV or SSR, but it would be bigger than BCV and VWL.  Maybe close to BWV, but I hope it wouldn't go more than 4 stories.


----------



## GOBA Mom Lynn

I have to agree with TCD on the layout of what I'll call the Southern Arc.  If someone with the computer capabilities* can show that on the overlay, I'll bet the pool and other parts of RC would fit in between the two arcs.  Plus, if you notice the main common building has what appears to be a porch all the way around it on 3 sides, with a bar on the short end.  The porch side on the southern exposure would be facing the pool area.  Just add some rocking chairs and we'd have a fancied up version of the Trails End porch.

*I'd do it myself, but unfortunately my drafting skills never made it to the computer age.

BTW:  Note to Everyone:
This has got to be one of the most enjoyable threads we've had in a while!  Maybe if we come up with enough good ideas, the Disney imagineers will use some of them.  We can only hope!


----------



## GOBA Mom Lynn

UConnJack said:


> Who knows what they will build, but its fun being an armchair quarterback.  While I would love to play with this in AutoCAD myself, my employer may have an issue with me taking a license to play with this at work for a few hours.  Instead, I sketched what I envision using your image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be huge like AKV or SSR, but it would be bigger than BCV and VWL.  Maybe close to BWV, but I hope it wouldn't go more than 4 stories.




UConnJack
Hey!  You must have been reading my mind!  Thanks!


----------



## dizfan

UConnJack said:


> It wouldn't be huge like AKV or SSR, but it would be bigger than BCV and VWL.  Maybe close to BWV, but I hope it wouldn't go more than 4 stories.



Really like the image.  If they build something like this, with a nice pool area and a decent beach (similar to BCV), I would be talking to the wife about adding on here.

Add the entertainment area (Diamond Horseshoe, an old soda fountain, shops, shooting gallery, etc) and people will be lining up to buy points.
A decent entertainment area would draw people from FW, WL/WLV, and all the boat access resorts (GF, Poly, and CR/BLT).


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Mickey'sApprentice said:


> I definitely see an Old West type atmosphere very similar to the "street" section of frontierland. Using the boardwalk example, the store fronts could have a gift shop, restaurants, maybe an arcade, etc.
> 
> My other inspiration for all of this is the main area of Dixie Landings that has the water wheel.
> 
> I agree that there is a conflict with having a Diamond Horseshoe show AND Hoop Dee Doo.  However, I think Disney could come up with something appropriate. Boardwalk has Jellyrolls, while Dixie Landings has Yee Haw Bob. Both of these "shows" are first come first serve bars. Yee Haw Bob is family friendly, while Jellyrolls is 21 to enter. So...long story short...use the Nightclub model, and not the Dinner Show model. (A saloon would fit into that model afterall.)
> 
> I am concerned about putting an Old West resort on water. How does that work? I mean old San Francisco or San Diego doesn't quite fit. Do you make it a Tom Sawyer, Big River theme? Do you make it Memphis or St. Louis?  Maybe, it will be Hanibal Missouri.
> 
> The only part that I really don't like about all of this is the prices that DVC have been astronomical lately. I love the idea...I just can't imagine paying $120 points for it. (I'm not willing to pay $120/pt. for ANY Resort ANYWHERE)
> 
> I think it would be a lot of fun to mix and mingle with our Fort Friends while staying at DVC.



I like your ideas.

Especially the one about a Saloon!

That would be a great amenity for Fort Wilderness and this new resort.

Right now, the night life ends at the Fort at around 10 pm 




UConnJack said:


> Who knows what they will build, but its fun being an armchair quarterback.  While I would love to play with this in AutoCAD myself, my employer may have an issue with me taking a license to play with this at work for a few hours.  Instead, I sketched what I envision using your image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be huge like AKV or SSR, but it would be bigger than BCV and VWL.  Maybe close to BWV, but I hope it wouldn't go more than 4 stories.



That is the idea of what I'm talking about.

Only, I think the pool ends up between the two arcs, not outside of the second arc.  Also, I don't think the second arc would go as far to the South/East as you have depicted.

It looks like the Fort Wilderness pavilion, which is between the two arcs, in the area you marked Lobby, could be saved.

The DVC's have very small lobbies.  They could put the Lobby just to the south of the FW pavilion, and maybe the pool just on the other side of the lobby, inside the arcs.   The pavilion could be used in conjunction with the pool, and for outside seating for dining, as well as other activities.

I still say no new dock or boat service- I think that's the whole idea of cramming the northern arc so close to Pioneer Hall and the beach- it isn't too far to walk to the FW dock from there.



GOBA Mom Lynn said:


> I have to agree with TCD on the layout of what I'll call the Southern Arc.  If someone with the computer capabilities* can show that on the overlay, I'll bet the pool and other parts of RC would fit in between the two arcs.  Plus, if you notice the main common building has what appears to be a porch all the way around it on 3 sides, with a bar on the short end.  The porch side on the southern exposure would be facing the pool area.  Just add some rocking chairs and we'd have a fancied up version of the Trails End porch.
> 
> *I'd do it myself, but unfortunately my drafting skills never made it to the computer age.
> 
> BTW:  Note to Everyone:
> This has got to be one of the most enjoyable threads we've had in a while!  Maybe if we come up with enough good ideas, the Disney imagineers will use some of them.  We can only hope!



Yep.  I see the porch.  The northern exposure faces the lake and Discovery Island.  Nice views there.  And the southern exposure would face the water recreation area.



dizfan said:


> Add the entertainment area (Diamond Horseshoe, an old soda fountain, shops, shooting gallery, etc) and people will be lining up to buy points.
> A decent entertainment area would draw people from FW, WL/WLV, and all the boat access resorts (GF, Poly, and CR/BLT).



Yes-  I agree with this.  There are hundreds of extra folks who visit FW every night for the Hoop Dee Doo Review and the Backyard BBQ- wouldn't Disney love to have some of those folks hang around for a bit and spend some extra money on drinks and games and such?


TCD


----------



## FWRR3

Someone suggested maybe we're being played here. Is Disney trying to save on Imagineering, and throwing this out just to see what the guests would design?


----------



## twinklebug

OK, I stop following the camping boards on a daily basis so I can concentrate on finding a darn joberoni and I return to find THIS mess of a thread.  I LOVE it! Afterall, I love Fort Wilderness and not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to afford, or have the patience enough to drive, a second home but on wheels - hence why I love my DVC so much.

 Great job on the mock ups guys! No visual concept designers in the bunch here? I'd love to see a ground view, a walk through, hear the music they'll play, the lifeguards blowing whistles at... err... no skip that one.


----------



## mom2dzb

None of these ideas leave any room for DVC cabins.


----------



## ynottony99

FWRR3 said:


> Someone suggested maybe we're being played here. Is Disney trying to save on Imagineering, and throwing this out just to see what the guests would design?





*Well, if that's the case, then let me start doing some drawing!!!!!*


----------



## twinklebug

FWRR3 said:


> Someone suggested maybe we're being played here. Is Disney trying to save on Imagineering, and throwing this out just to see what the guests would design?



I doubt it. Disney has had hundreds, even thousands of plans in filing cabinets for years and years. This is just an old one dusted off and most likely revamped to account for a few changes for engineering and to accommodate for wetland laws and new surveys/perk tests.

I don't think filing this was an accident either. Disney know's what it's doing. It's fun to imagine what they might do though


----------



## LadyTrampScamp&Angel

DVC cabins would be our dream come true!  Please!


----------



## Shan-man

Here is a whack at the TCD vision:






Just an interesting note: the lodge (as we've been calling it) is larger than Pioneer Hall even without the porches. The porches make it much larger. I still don't quite buy that the parking will be where the stables are now... who wants the suites that look out onto a parking lot? I think the main parking may still be across the road, with a lot of emphasis on cart-based bell-service.


----------



## HockeyKat

Interesting.  If they took the angle a little sharper to the south, it appears the old pool could be used as well.   

They may do under-unit parking like Kidani Village?   

I really hope they don't go toward the bell-services/valet approach.  That is one of my biggest complaints with the current Boardwalk setup, and Grand Floridian is even worse (not that I have stayed there, but have driven over for dinner and had to park and walk).     

I hate being forced into "add-on" services like that.


----------



## Capt. Barbosa

I think they are being lazy and are letting us design it for them. A little from column A a little from column B and hey boss look we designed the new Fort Wilderness DVC


----------



## stopher1

HockeyKat said:


> Interesting.  If they took the angle a little sharper to the south, it appears the old pool could be used as well.
> 
> *They may do under-unit parking like Kidani Village? *




This is exactly what I've been thinking as I've read through all of the pages watching this wonderful iterations unfold!  Great job with the drawing overlays on the Google images!  I loved seeing the older ones from the '90s in B&W to the current ones.  I've been lurking and following these rumors for a while now as they've come up, but this thread has been amazingly neat to watch and read it all unfold.  Kudos to all you inquisitive minds.  

My two cents, like HockeyKat, is that if they repeat the style of building that they did at AKV - both at Jambo House and Kidani, then they would probably  repeat the parking situation that went in at Kidani. Given the renderings, it sure does appear that they would follow that design choice all the way through with the parking situation as well. Ground level parking that is "underground" since the lobby entry area and "first floor" are actually on level two.  Multiple elevators and stairwells throughout to accomodate guests getting to and from their vehicles easily wherever they are located, and avoids that unsightly view of the parking lot.  It depends on how much would actually get built, of course.  It could be a mix of both, underunit on one side, and traditional lot for the other side?  Just guessing myself right along with you all.


----------



## TJM1976

Question...  I know the BWV, BWI, and the Boardwalk area where ESPN is, etc.   But was that "wooden walkway" out into Bay Lake with the gazebo beside RC also called a boardwalk?


----------



## ynottony99

Tri-circle-D said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Here you go:
> http://my.sfwmd.gov/cmsdk/content/i...echnical/101021-29c4_epdpstables_pgd79948.pdf
> 
> Better take a look quick.
> 
> I'll bet it gets taken down soon.
> 
> TCD



*Maybe I'm behind a little, and someone else has noted this,  but the link is dead.  Even if you go directly to Swiftmud's site, the link appears in a search, but the page itself is gone.*


----------



## Tri-circle-D

mom2dzb said:


> None of these ideas leave any room for DVC cabins.





LadyTrampScamp&Angel said:


> DVC cabins would be our dream come true!  Please!



Have faith!  Remember, we are only seeing what appears to be less than half of the plans- and these may not even be the real plans anyway.  

There was a pretty detailed rumor reported by Des1954 which included super-premium campsites right on Bay Lake.

IMHO, Disney would be missing a huge money maker if they failed to include premium cabins as part of this project.  They could be scattered around to the west of the area that we are looking at.

The current cabins at FW can only accommodate a maximum of 6 guests.  If they built cabins that could accommodate larger parties, these would be very popular.



Shan-man said:


> Here is a whack at the TCD vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just an interesting note: the lodge (as we've been calling it) is larger than Pioneer Hall even without the porches. The porches make it much larger. I still don't quite buy that the parking will be where the stables are now... who wants the suites that look out onto a parking lot? I think the main parking may still be across the road, with a lot of emphasis on cart-based bell-service.



I bow at the feet of the wizard! 

Seriously, Shan-man, you rock!

That is almost exactly what I am talking about.

Look how this design could leave both the pavilion and the barn standing.

Why tear them down?

Use them for a recreation amenity, or a restaurant, or something.

That would be cool!

And, thanks for pointing out the relative size of the main lodge building.  It is very big.  I would think that it would be multi-story, with public space on the lower floor, e.g. lobby, restaurants, bar, community room, and rooms on the upper floors.  Like at AKL.  A lot could fit in that footprint. 

A lot.



HockeyKat said:


> Interesting.  If they took the angle a little sharper to the south, it appears the old pool could be used as well.
> 
> They may do under-unit parking like Kidani Village?
> 
> I really hope they don't go toward the bell-services/valet approach.  That is one of my biggest complaints with the current Boardwalk setup, and Grand Floridian is even worse (not that I have stayed there, but have driven over for dinner and had to park and walk).
> 
> I hate being forced into "add-on" services like that.





stopher1 said:


> This is exactly what I've been thinking as I've read through all of the pages watching this wonderful iterations unfold!  Great job with the drawing overlays on the Google images!  I loved seeing the older ones from the '90s in B&W to the current ones.  I've been lurking and following these rumors for a while now as they've come up, but this thread has been amazingly neat to watch and read it all unfold.  Kudos to all you inquisitive minds.
> 
> My two cents, like HockeyKat, is that if they repeat the style of building that they did at AKV - both at Jambo House and Kidani, then they would probably  repeat the parking situation that went in at Kidani. Given the renderings, it sure does appear that they would follow that design choice all the way through with the parking situation as well. Ground level parking that is "underground" since the lobby entry area and "first floor" are actually on level two.  Multiple elevators and stairwells throughout to accomodate guests getting to and from their vehicles easily wherever they are located, and avoids that unsightly view of the parking lot.  It depends on how much would actually get built, of course.  It could be a mix of both, underunit on one side, and traditional lot for the other side?  Just guessing myself right along with you all.



I appreciate getting the DVC perspective on this.

I don't know about the under-building parking so close to the lake.

But, you are both right- that's how it was done at AKL.

And, the DVC over in Vero Beach is like that too.




TJM1976 said:


> Question...  I know the BWV, BWI, and the Boardwalk area where ESPN is, etc.   But was that "wooden walkway" out into Bay Lake with the gazebo beside RC also called a boardwalk?



I don't ever recall it being called a boardwalk, just a nature walk.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but all of that, including the gazebo, was removed earlier this year.



ynottony99 said:


> *Maybe I'm behind a little, and someone else has noted this,  but the link is dead.  Even if you go directly to Swiftmud's site, the link appears in a search, but the page itself is gone.*




Ah ha!

Good thing LL captured it and posted it on her site!

Because I am not done studying it.

Does the removal of the document mean that it was, in fact, and accidental leak?

Or is this all part of Disney's evil plan to get free feedback from Disney fans?

Anyway, since we still have the document, we can keep on discussing it . . .

This area has been bothering me, because I can't read it.

Can anyone tell me what it says inside of the square just west of the playground?:






I think the last word is area.  I am thinking that this will be a fenced off area used for construction staging.  But, I don't know why it would be on this side of the project as opposed to west of where the buildings are supposedly going. 

TCD


----------



## UConnJack

I'm not sure they would do underbuilding parking here, as they would essentially lose one floor of units to sell.  With Kidani, building the unts higher to make up for the lost units was fine since it was all about the views of the savana.  Kidani is also so large and long, that an outdoor parking area would have been massive with 1/2 of the whole resort having parking lot views.  I don't think below building parking would accomplish the same things here.


----------



## dizfan

Tri-circle-D said:


> I don't know about the under-building parking so close to the lake.
> 
> But, you are both right- that's how it was done at AKL.
> 
> And, the DVC over in Vero Beach is like that too.



One thing to keep in mind.  It's not under ground parking.  They simply put the parking on the ground, then build on top of that.  Using landscaping they make it appear to be under ground.  A few CMs told me this is what they did at Kidani.

For example, Magic Kingdom has an entire set of tunnels underneath it.   The park, is really the second floor.


----------



## Shan-man

Tri-circle-D said:


> Can anyone tell me what it says inside of the square just west of the playground?:
> 
> I think the last word is area.  I am thinking that this will be a fenced off area used for construction staging.  But, I don't know why it would be on this side of the project as opposed to west of where the buildings are supposedly going.
> TCD



It says "Mulched Swing Area"... and it is! LOL  I e-mailed you a more readable PDF, BTW.


----------



## DenLo

Thumper_ehhhhh said:


> The cannon must be new and to keep us fort rif raf out of the new dvc lol


  I don't think anyone thinks fort guests are riff raff.  It's just that to use the DVC facilities you gotta spend thousands of bucks for the privilege.  I think the Fort guests already have it figured out that they have a good deal by staying at the fort.



Tri-circle-D said:


> . . . . .
> 
> So, does anyone remember there ever being a canon pointing toward the marina?. . . . . But, I sure don't remember any canon at the Fort.





itch1 said:


> I second tcd sentiments !!!
> I have been staying at the Fort all my life and I can safely say there has not been a cannon since 1970's



I've been thinking since I heard about this project that the DVC hasn't done a POTC themed resort.  And since POTC4 is coming out and it's about pirates and conquistadors in . . . . . Florida, maybe that will be the theme for this new resort.  And now several posts have mentioned that the plans show a cannon!  

I'm not sure how a POTC theme would fit in with Ft. Wilderness though.  Hmmm.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Shan-man said:


> It says "Mulched Swing Area"... and it is! LOL  I e-mailed you a more readable PDF, BTW.



Oh . . .

duh!

That is where the swings are.

That is not as exciting as I had imagined. 

Thanks for the more readable PDF.

It's like Christmas came early.

BTW- I just noticed that the playground equipment shown on the drawing is several years out of date.  The equipment shown on the drawing was replaced about four or five years ago.

TCD


----------



## nytimez

dizfan said:


> One thing to keep in mind.  It's not under ground parking.  They simply put the parking on the ground, then build on top of that.  Using landscaping they make it appear to be under ground.



It doesn't even appear underground in most cases. You can see the parking from the road, at road level.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

DenLo said:


> I've been thinking since I heard about this project that the DVC hasn't done a POTC themed resort.  And since POTC4 is coming out and it's about pirates and conquistadors in . . . . . Florida, maybe that will be the theme for this new resort.  And now several posts have mentioned that the plans show a cannon!
> 
> I'm not sure how a POTC theme would fit in with Ft. Wilderness though.  Hmmm.



The first thing I though of when I saw the cannon was Pirates.

But, the theme of Fort Wilderness is a Davy Crockett/Daniel Boone kind of wilderness fort.  To keep out Native Americans, not pirates.

However, that cannon is significant.

Why a cannon?

It really surprises me.

Especially since they have gone out of their way to erase every possible image of Mickey holding a musket.

And, now that I have Shan-man's enhanced, PDF, I see something else here near the cannon:






See that little box below the cannon?

It says Ammo Carrier!

Ammo Carrier?

Are you kidding me?

OK- about the pirates . . .

Even though Fort Wilderness was themed as an inland frontier type pioneer area, Discovery Island, just off the banks of the Settlement, was originally themed as Treasure Island.  With pirates, and buried treasure, and such.  The shipwreck on the island, which, BTW, the main building is pointing directly at, is supposed to be the wreck of a pirate ship.

So, why couldn't this new resort have a pirate theme?

They didn't have big old cannons and ammo carriers out in the wilderness, to shoot at the Native Americans, did they?

TCD


----------



## Shan-man

Tri-circle-D said:


> BTW- I just noticed that the playground equipment shown on the drawing is several years out of date.  The equipment shown on the drawing was replaced about four or five years ago.



Yeah, I think between the dock, the old high water mark data ('79 and '81), and now the playground equipment, that we can safely say that they are drawing over old documents. Probably from the same time frame as Disney was considering Buffalo Junction and Cypress Point. I think the cannon was an idea from back then, too, and isn't likely to materialize in any future development. It's the same PC problem as the musket, who do you think it was aimed at? The Injuns and French... not that anybody would be too concerned about offending the French, but I digress. Anyway, the topo lines are probably all from this old plan, and the scattered thousands of loose elevations are new (it is much easier to gather that much data these days with GPS and lasers).

Also, I wanted to agree with a point made earlier, that the only thing from this sheet that I think is a "sure thing" is the alterations to the utilities, shown in color. That seems to be what the plan was submitted for, to my eye anyhow. The rest could very easily be just for massing, to see what fits. Also, it is obvious that some layers are turned off, as you can see elevations marking the perimeter of structures and paths that are not shown... like the RC ticket booth. Others, that are also obviously going to be demolished are shown, like the juice bar. Overall, after spending way too many hours sorting through this drawing, I can say that the CAD operator is doing a messy job of maintaing his drawing! But hey, can't look a gift horse in the mouth.


----------



## RocklandRVers

I know I have steam trains on the brain, but look at the design of the buildings.  To me, they look like huge rail cars connected together.  Maybe the larger blue arc is the roundhouse?  Again using this area as a historical timeline: You go up the Mississippi on your steam boat at Port Orleans resort, then you come to the Fort in your covered wagon and wind your way up to the Settlement where you go the rest of the way either by a boat from the dock or on up the road to a big train.  From there you go to the Wilderness Lodge in the earliest 20th Century and then onto the Contemporary where you enter a futuristic world.


----------



## skelooch

Shan-man said:


> Here is a whack at the TCD vision:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just an interesting note: the lodge (as we've been calling it) is larger than Pioneer Hall even without the porches. The porches make it much larger. I still don't quite buy that the parking will be where the stables are now... who wants the suites that look out onto a parking lot? I think the main parking may still be across the road, with a lot of emphasis on cart-based bell-service.



I think you are right on, a mirror image of the northern section. That was my first thought when you pointed out existing dock southwest of the concrete wall. Great job of superimposing it onto Google Maps.


----------



## Shan-man

RocklandRVers said:


> Maybe the larger blue arc is the roundhouse?


I just wanted to make sure no one is confused: the red buildings indicate what is shown on the leaked drawing, the blue is all hypothetical. The blue is just me trying to make sense of the clues given by the partial buildings shown in red.

Resume speculations, that is all,


----------



## liz2206

I would love it if they built a DVC resort on the old RC site as we love Fort but the cabins are not big enough anymore.

If they are going to do the resort when do you think we will hear if it is going ahead?


----------



## ynottony99

*I was just browsing through my photos from the 1st of Oct. at FW.  Lots of stakes and markers around the Settlement area and even West down past the barn.  But no stakes or markers anywhere around the Outpost Depot, or the old Kennel, where the new barn is to be built.  *


----------



## NLPRacing

liz2206 said:


> I would love it if they built a DVC resort on the old RC site as we love Fort but the cabins are not big enough anymore.
> 
> If they are going to do the resort when do you think we will hear if it is going ahead?



They are just now getting permits to move the barn.  I would guess an announcement is still a year or more away.


----------



## Thumper_ehhhhh

DenLo said:


> I don't think anyone thinks fort guests are riff raff.  It's just that to use the DVC facilities you gotta spend thousands of bucks for the privilege.  I think the Fort guests already have it figured out that they have a good deal by staying at the fort.


No it's just a ongoing joke we have on the camping boards here. Trust me I know us Fort folks arent riff raff.


----------



## WannaBeImagineer

ynottony99 said:


> *Maybe I'm behind a little, and someone else has noted this, but the link is dead. Even if you go directly to Swiftmud's site, the link appears in a search, but the page itself is gone.*


 
I think you're the first one to point it out, but you are right. I just checked the website and the application and all supporting information is still there, but the pdf that shows the area everyone is interested in is no longer up. Honestly I still think it should have never been posted in the first place, they posted signed and sealed plans of the TCD stables why did they need those pdfs too?

Oh well, lucky us I guess! I wonder if someone at PBS&J got in trouble?


----------



## ftwildernessrick

I am going to need a lot more popcorn for this post before it is over.


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

WannaBeImagineer said:


> I think you're the first one to point it out, but you are right. I just checked the website and the application and all supporting information is still there, but the pdf that shows the area everyone is interested in is no longer up. Honestly I still think it should have never been posted in the first place, they posted signed and sealed plans of the TCD stables why did they need those pdfs too?
> 
> Oh well, lucky us I guess! I wonder if someone at PBS&J got in trouble?



Ahh...that is very close if not exactly how Disney has handled the leaks in the past.


----------



## HockeyKat

UConnJack said:


> I'm not sure they would do underbuilding parking here, as they would essentially lose one floor of units to sell.  With Kidani, building the unts higher to make up for the lost units was fine since it was all about the views of the savana.  Kidani is also so large and long, that an outdoor parking area would have been massive with 1/2 of the whole resort having parking lot views.  I don't think below building parking would accomplish the same things here.



I am a bit late to the party here (darn you work for making me work!!).  

However, another reason they built the Kidani Village with the units starting on the 2nd floor for savanna view, is that the 1st floor savanna side is unusable, not just for view purposes, but due to proximity to the animals and the service roads needed to deal with them.   This may be legal, or it may be just common sense (no access to ground on savanna side means fewer guests pulled off fences).  

Jambo House, the original AKL, also has units starting on 2nd floor only when facing the savanna, although I am not entirely sure about the pool and standard view sides. 

I think it was a great idea to put the parking under, though, considering all you lose is standard view to nothing on one side.     


It would be cool if they did something halfway like Kidani, with parking under the "parking lot view" side, and rooms on the lake view side?


----------



## apehat02

If they are going to "reopen" river country, there is one big problem. Even if Disney wants to use the same slides and attractions, they would have to tear the whole thing out and start from scratch. One of the reasons it closed was the water supply coming from Bay Lake, which became illegal with the passing of a Florida law where waterparks and pools must take their sources from municipal "clean" water supplies, due to infestation and bacteria growth common to central Florida waterways. All of the structures that were filled from Bay Lake are now considered contaminated and cannot be reused.


----------



## keylime359

Why can they do the triathlon in the lake then? Just curious?


----------



## ynottony99

keylime359 said:


> Why can they do the triathlon in the lake then? Just curious?


*
This has been discussed before, and I believe the short answer is that if informed contestants chose to swim that does not hold the same liability as having hundreds of unsuspecting resort guests frolicking in it.  *


----------



## chartle

keylime359 said:


> Why can they do the triathlon in the lake then? Just curious?



The amoeba likes water of a very specific temp.  During the summer they live in water maybe 18 inches to 2 feet deep because any deeper and the water is cooler.

The triathlon is not held at a time that the amoeba should not be active.  At least thats what I think.


----------



## pooh4me

I have been lurking and have to thank all of you for helping us understand what the plans are. We love Fort Wilderness and would never stay any place else.My idea is that they want to add another form of accommodations to the Fort and then designate the whole Fort as as DVC. This would give their members cabins and campsites which although they can use their points for  these now, the number of points and the ease of using them and other perks would increase. This could be a big boast to non DVC members too,new food court,sit down restaurant and maybe a great new River Country pool.


----------



## Thumper_ehhhhh

It would suck to make all of the fort dvc. They would lose money as not everyone can afford the membership or are not interested in one.


----------



## luckycharm19335

Thumper_ehhhhh said:


> It would suck to make all of the fort dvc. They would lose money as not everyone can afford the membership or are not interested in one.


I really don't think that that would be a viable option?
At least I really hope not!


----------



## HockeyKat

Thumper_ehhhhh said:


> It would suck to make all of the fort dvc. They would lose money as not everyone can afford the membership or are not interested in one.




Just because something is DVC does not mean that a non-member can't pay cash for it.

Currently, for a DVC member to use their points on a non-DVC-yet-Disney accomodation (like moderate/value resorts, campsites, cabins, Poly, or GF), they have to pay a rather steep upcharge and the points turn into a different category if/when you have to cancel.  

Having DVC campsites/cabins, would just allow a DVC member to use points for a campsite or cabin, rather than deal with the transfer/upcharge/hassle.


I think it would be an interesting idea but an unlikely one.   More likely to have certain campsites/cabins designated for DVC.


----------



## bookwormde

When  I was guessing a few months ago I was thinking that it wold be part of VWL since I did not think they could get enough 2br equivelents for an independant, but if it is 3 or 4 floors and there are 4 or more arcs there could be as many as 500 2br units, which is more units than BLT.

That would be $1,000,000,000 in DVC sales. can you say incentive, since construction would likely be less than $250,000,000

bookwormde


----------



## luckycharm19335

HockeyKat said:


> Just because something is DVC does not mean that a non-member can't pay cash for it.
> 
> Currently, for a DVC member to use their points on a non-DVC-yet-Disney accomodation (like moderate/value resorts, campsites, cabins, Poly, or GF), they have to pay a rather steep upcharge and the points turn into a different category if/when you have to cancel.
> 
> Having DVC campsites/cabins, would just allow a DVC member to use points for a campsite or cabin, rather than deal with the transfer/upcharge/hassle.
> 
> 
> I think it would be an interesting idea but an unlikely one.   More likely to have certain campsites/cabins designated for DVC.


Yes, but in that instance would DVC take priority when trying to book your stay?


----------



## TJM1976

TCD:  thanks for the clairification on the "boardwalk".  I guess all these postings are so exciting that they became jumbled.    
Yes, the "Nature Walk" was torn down earlier.  I was able to get a few pics (from the ferry) just before it was gone.


----------



## Shan-man

This resource is no longer available here, sorry.


----------



## skelooch

Shan-man said:


> I just wanted to make sure no one is confused: the red buildings indicate what is shown on the leaked drawing, the blue is all hypothetical. The blue is just me trying to make sense of the clues given by the partial buildings shown in red.
> 
> Resume speculations, that is all,



But because of that little piece of red at the boat dock, you have created a perfectly rational assumption of what the entire complex could be.

It would be nice to know what the date of those leaked plans was.
Wasn't there plans and lots of drawings for a Bonnet Creek Resort years ago that never happened.
I don't doubt there may be plans for a lot of projects that never did or never will happen. And personally I don't care one way or the other if this one does, but I can sure see why the people who love FW would. If I were a FW regular I would care alot.


----------



## Big Kahuna

I have this figured out... Disney made no mistake,   Ftwildernessguy and Bobby planted this and they knew that everyone on the camping board would run with it.  Disney has now finished their development design for free and has been provided at least seven options of what to put there or how to make it work.

I'm on to you Bobby.......


----------



## Shan-man

This resource is no longer available here, sorry.


----------



## Capt. Barbosa

I'm liking the idea of an old western town design with a Railroad station built in , it would fit with the fort theme and pay homage to Walts love of steam trains.


----------



## ftwildernessrick

Shan-man said:


> Ok, I've been chomping at the bit all day to see what TCD was going to say about this pic that he uploaded to PhotoBucket...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he ain't posting, so I wanted to mention what I noticed about it. See the cannon? See the label that calls it a cannon? See the elevation notation under it? Doesn't that imply that the cannon was in place when the elevations were taken? I think so! So I'll ask again, are the long-time Fort'ers sure they never saw a cannon at the Fort... like around '79-'82? Notice also, they had an ammo carrier labeled due south of the cannon. Pretty cool stuff. I can hear Musket Mickey now, "Hold your posts boys, the French have taken the dock... prepare the 8" gun! Fire!"



I can honestly say I don't remember if there was one or not. There have been so many changes over the years, some subtle, some not. Sometimes I notice something gone or changed, then realized after thinking back or checking photos, that it was done some years before. If the cannon was there, it was not in an accessible play area. Kind of like the totem pole, that I did not realize it was gone until a couple of years afterwards.

Just like the lawnmower tree. I remember when you could almost see the whole thing, then the tree kept growing around it until it almost disappeared.I still wonder if the reason they cut the tree was because the tree got too big or if they did it so the lawnmower could still be seen.


----------



## Shan-man

This resource is no longer available here, sorry.


----------



## DogDawg

Props to all that have posted on this, probably the most interesting read I've seen on this site (although I am a relative newbie here).  Anyway, I may have missed it, but has there been any disscussion on the ingress/egress to this new build?  Seems like a lot of cars and busses will be headed this way. More than the road from WL can handle?  and parking?  Just my thoughts.  DD


----------



## mikeymouse1

Shan-man said:


> Ok, I've been chomping at the bit all day to see what TCD was going to say about this pic that he uploaded to PhotoBucket...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he ain't posting, so I wanted to mention what I noticed about it. See the cannon? See the label that calls it a cannon? See the elevation notation under it? Doesn't that imply that the cannon was in place when the elevations were taken? I think so! So I'll ask again, are the long-time Fort'ers sure they never saw a cannon at the Fort... like around '79-'82? Notice also, they had an ammo carrier labeled due south of the cannon. Pretty cool stuff. I can hear Musket Mickey now, "Hold your posts boys, the French have taken the dock... prepare the 8" gun! Fire!"



I spent a lot of time as a kid at the Fort in the Mid 70's and I am pretty sure there was a cannon on the play ground. Remember when the play areas were a Fort Apache theme  of sorts. Cannons kinda stick out to a 4 or 5 year old.


----------



## HockeyKat

Shan-man said:


> I did a little further analysis of the drawings this evening and using known objects for scale I determined that the suites are drawn at 33'x42' (roughly). I have no idea how that compares to other DVCs, but it sounds rather large... 1400 sq ft. Maybe they really are targeting longer-term vacationers.



A two bedroom lockoff at Kidani Village is almost 1200 sq ft, according to a site I just visited.    The rest of them seem to fall more in the 1000-1100 sq ft range, except for OKW, which is almost 1400 sq ft.


----------



## Shan-man

HockeyKat said:


> A two bedroom lockoff at Kidani Village is almost 1200 sq ft, according to a site I just visited.    The rest of them seem to fall more in the 1000-1100 sq ft range, except for OKW, which is almost 1400 sq ft.



Ok, so that jibes. Thanks!


----------



## PrincessNP

Unbelievable! Great job to all!!

I honestly dont know if I should laugh or cry??  

I think the Western idea would be really neat, but quite frankly I dont think it matches the other DVC concepts.....Bay Lake, Old key West....etc. Maybe I am being judgemental, but I think most DVCers want more of a luxury feel. Hope that isnt taken the wrong way......to some of us the Fort is luxurious!

And I certainly agree that we are underestimating the use of the land between the Fort and the WL. Is there a way to out the entrance over there?? I am not familiar enough with the grounds layout over there.


----------



## HockeyKat

Shan-man said:


> Ok, so that jibes. Thanks!



Sure!  Once you allow for hallways and such, it should be right on par with typical DVC.  


I will reiterate the last post.  This thread is awesome.   You guys are blowing me away with all of this!!


----------



## twinklebug

PrincessNP said:


> Unbelievable! Great job to all!!
> 
> I honestly dont know if I should laugh or cry??
> 
> I think the Western idea would be really neat, but quite frankly I dont think it matches the other DVC concepts.....Bay Lake, Old key West....etc. Maybe I am being judgemental, but I think most *DVCers want more of a luxury feel*. Hope that isnt taken the wrong way......to some of us the Fort is luxurious!
> 
> And I certainly agree that we are underestimating the use of the land between the Fort and the WL. Is there a way to out the entrance over there?? I am not familiar enough with the grounds layout over there.



I don't know about "luxury". Luxury to me is living a palace with maid, butler and personal chef (No, I don't have any of that, Ha!). 

For the most part, DVC'rs want the same thing Travel trailer/motor coach folk do, but not to the same extent: We both want our home with us when we're away on vacation. Campers will get up in the a.m., brew a pot of coffee and sit under their awning listening to nature and admiring the beauty around them, saying hi to the neighbors, DVC'rs will brew the coffee, struggle with ridiculously small coffee mugs stocked in the unit and will sit on the porch for the whole two minutes it takes to polish off that thimble of coffee before having to return indoors for another cup. (I pack my own mugs now . We'll say hi in passing others in the halls or in the lobby.

I don't like the old west theme myself because Old West films always highlighted the dry dust bowl of a main street and ranches. Ick. The Fort area is rich in trees and wildlife. Whatever they build, IF they build it, has to take advantage of the area's natural beauty. 

As for traffic, I doubt they'd have it go through the main part of the fort. They might hook a road up around the backside of the cabins and out to the exit. Oddly enough we still don't know if the idea is to build this onto the fort, or if they plan on this being a whole new resort. I had hoped it'd be built a bit closer to VWL and be an addition to there, just for simplicity in using points.


----------



## Thumper_ehhhhh

Looking through the picture the horseshoe shaped building kinda looks like a old round house steam locomotive shed.


----------



## BayLake Campers

Shan-man what software do you use to get the pdf to look so good?


----------



## DenLo

Although I got excited by the idea that a cannon was on the PDF which to me shouted POTC.  I just can't see the DVC not making the theme for a new DVC resort to similar to the Disney Resort it's attached to.  E.g. Bay Lake Tower is attached to the Contemporary resort so BLT is real modern.  Wilderness Lodge and the Villas at Wilderness Lodge is similar.  So if the new DVC resort is considered attached to Ft. Wilderness, it will have a similar theme.

I suppose there is a slight possibility that the River Country DVC will not be attached to anything, but that would mean that new resort would need it's own  restaurants.  The DVC hasn't built any resorts like that for awhile.  

It'll probably be years before we know anything about a DVC resort at River Country.  At least the Fort folks know where their stables/barn and all are moving.  And hopefully they'll be really nice facilities and will make up for losing the extra property.


----------



## Shan-man

BayLake Campers said:


> Shan-man what software do you use to get the pdf to look so good?



I use Adobe Illustrator, which allows me to change the width of the lines which the whole drawing is made up of. The small text has too thick of a stroke on it so it just blobs-up. Make the line thinner, presto, readable!

How about this for a concept, a lodge from the Sierra Nevadas:


----------



## vonpluto

Back to the cannon for a moment. Here's a pic from page 102 of WDW The First Decade:






From the angle of the pic this wheel could be the ammo carrier serving the cannon noted on the drawings.


----------



## Flossbolna

Hi everyone, I have not yet read the whole thread, but most of it. It's really interesting to read what you all have come up with! 

Two comments:

1) I remember from the leak of the Fantasyland expansion that on these plans (which looked similar to me in style), there was old data as well. If I remember correctly, someone mentioned that Disney is using old plans from when everything was first built still regularly for their permits. 

2) Regarding theme: Disney already built a Western Town themed hotel: the Hotel Cheyenne in Disneyland Paris. Considering that Disney used similar themes for hotels in Paris and WDW (GF and Disneyland Hotel in Paris, YC and Newport Bay Club in Paris and WL and Sequoia Lodge in Paris) this might indeed be the one they go for. However, the Cheyenne is very much a value resort in Paris, but as far as I know a very popular one. This is a site which has some pictures: http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/hotels/hotel_cheyenne.php

ETA: However, I read once that the reason for Hotel Cheyenne and also the very large Frontierland in DLP is that Europeans love the idea of the American West. DLP therefore also has Buffallo Bill's Wild West Show - a dinner show in Disney Village (which is similar to DTD).


----------



## TJM1976

vonpluto said:


> Back to the cannon for a moment. Here's a pic from page 102 of WDW The First Decade:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the angle of the pic this wheel could be the ammo carrier serving the cannon noted on the drawings.



Interesting...   do you have the link to that thread?

I'll look through some of my old pics that I've found over the years.  (I have this thing for pics of WDW in the construction stages and the early years)


----------



## ambertides

Woah. Go to The Fort for a couple days, then come down with a cold, and you come back to.... awesomeness. 

Well, potential awesomeness.


----------



## vonpluto

TJM1976 said:


> Interesting...   do you have the link to that thread?
> 
> I'll look through some of my old pics that I've found over the years.  (I have this thing for pics of WDW in the construction stages and the early years)



Not a thread,  hard bound Disney Park edition, published 1982.


----------



## bookwormde

Yes 1400sqft is just about right because you have to subtract hallways and utility areas and that takes it down to about 1100-1200 sqft.

By the way ,thanks for doing the measuring.

bookwormde


----------



## Shan-man

I just wanted to clarify that the 1400 sf ft measure is JUST the suite footprint. The halls, stair & elevator wells, etc are drawn separately. So, these will be larger than usual, lending credence to the notion that these are meant to appeal to extended length vacationers.


----------



## itch1

Ok so I will ask this guy at work who at eighteen worked on the sudstructer( sp ) of MK and Fort Wilderness !


----------



## itch1

I guess this wouldn't be that bad  !!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/IMG]


----------



## bookwormde

I do not think the interior hallways are drawn anywhere near to scale since they are often 6-8' wide. Plumbing chases and HVAC and ductwork chases typically take up 50 to 100 sqft although they got this down to much less in BLT. Still it does look roomier.

bookwormde


----------



## Shan-man

bookwormde said:


> I do not think the interior hallways are drawn anywhere near to scale since they are often 6-8' wide. Plumbing chases and HVAC and ductwork chases typically take up 50 to 100 sqft although they got this down to much less in BLT. Still it does look roomier.
> 
> bookwormde



You're right, I flubbed that one.


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

I could see DVC creating a resort with larger rooms again. 

Ft. Wilderness DVC will not be as convenient as BLT or BCV to a  park. Bigger rooms could make it a good draw.

Has transportation to the parks improved from the Fort? We stayed at WL in 2005 and thought the transportation was just awful. 

BTW, I think I may be able to clear something up to my friends at the Fort. I'm sure that there are snarky people who look down at the "poor" campers. That's just NOT nice, and shows no class. However, my recollection was that after I waited 20-30 minutes at the dock to get on a boat...it irritated me to go pick anybody else up. 

On the same trip...we shared a bus with the Grand Floridian from Downtown Disney and had to deal with several drunk adolescents who were down right vicious about having to share the bus with the riff raff staying at Wilderness Lodge.


----------



## TJM1976

vonpluto said:


> Not a thread,  hard bound Disney Park edition, published 1982.




Oh!  Gotcha.  I have that same book.


----------



## retired and happy

The boats from the marina have pretty direct routes now, but will occasionally divert to WL to pick up a handicapped person.  Very unusual lately.  All busses to the parks leave from the outpost now and they have enlarged the GC parking area somewhat.  Of course the easiest way to MK is the launch.  Most busses include WL in their route, so it's a little out of the way.


----------



## bookwormde

Shan-man,

You were very close, I am an estimator in construction so anything that does not fit pops out to me. Plus I am sure that DVD is not going to radically change there floorplans if it cost more $$$, that would cut into their profits. Water view near MK is going to sell well no mater what, and for those of use who like a more rustic feel and room to wander it is a big draw.

Thanks again

Bookwormde


----------



## brookelizabeth

A very interested lurker just had to comment...



twinklebug said:


> For the most part, DVC'rs want the same thing Travel trailer/motor coach folk do, but not to the same extent: We both want our home with us when we're away on vacation. Campers will get up in the a.m., brew a pot of coffee and sit under their awning listening to nature and admiring the beauty around them, saying hi to the neighbors, DVC'rs will brew the coffee, struggle with ridiculously small coffee mugs stocked in the unit and will sit on the porch for the whole two minutes it takes to polish off that thimble of coffee before having to return indoors for another cup. (I pack my own mugs now . We'll say hi in passing others in the halls or in the lobby.



 so true!

I'm a DVCer and the thought of Villas at Fort Wilderness sound GREAT to me!  I love the idea of escaping into nature - Wilderness Lodge does that to a certain extent already and it's a popular resort.  The "old west" theme could work for us Americans even (Hi Magdalene! ) if done properly.

I really enjoy the resorts without a beach theme.  I love escaping into a darker and cooler resort after spending time in the hot Florida sun.  I'm also a City girl, so "living in nature" for a week sounds incredibly appealing...sorta like camping...but with a shower and coffee pot in the room.  

I'm enjoying the thread!  Thank you to everyone who has poured time into all the renderings!  It's fun to imagine what might be.


----------



## Lisa0620

Tri-circle-D said:


> IMHO, Disney would be missing a huge money maker if they failed to include premium cabins as part of this project.  They could be scattered around to the west of the area that we are looking at.
> 
> The current cabins at FW can only accommodate a maximum of 6 guests.  If they built cabins that could accommodate larger parties, these would be very popular.



Don't need a bigger cabin, they can even make it smaller - just give us an adult sized bed!

This is such a great thread, thanks everyone, really fun reading.


----------



## NLPRacing

Let's keep this thing going, anybody talk to any bus drivers lately?  I need an update!  

I really get a feeling that this addition will be more inclusive to FW then exclusive.  Why would they build something so close then say "for DVC members only"?  I really think it will have a more "Villas at Fort Wilderness" then a "Bay Lake Tower" feel to it.  I just hope we get some added shops & restaurants.  That's about the only thing I see lacking currently at FW.


----------



## ynottony99

NLPRacing said:


> Let's keep this thing going, anybody talk to any bus drivers lately?  I need an update!



*TCD has not posted since last Thursday.  I'm hoping he made a weekend trip to FW and has dug up some good stuff.  *


----------



## GOBA Mom Lynn

I have a feeling that this new resort, be it DVC or not, will have to have some sort of name unto itself.  The "Villas at Fort Wilderness" would end up being a disaster as far as reservations goes.  How many people have been given (or tried to be given) a ressie at Wilderness Lodge because the people at reservations are soooo confused?  Since there already is a Villas at Wilderness Lodge, just think what having Villas at Fort Wilderness would do to reservations.  And people who haven't a clue about where they want to stay would be thinking they're booking one resort, but end up with the other.

Would this mean the theme may be different enough from Wilderness Lodge, so people wouldn't be confused?  The Old West train depot might just do that.  It will be interesting to see......


----------



## NLPRacing

GOBA Mom Lynn said:


> I have a feeling that this new resort, be it DVC or not, will have to have some sort of name unto itself.  The "Villas at Fort Wilderness" would end up being a disaster as far as reservations goes.  How many people have been given (or tried to be given) a ressie at Wilderness Lodge because the people at reservations are soooo confused?  Since there already is a Villas at Wilderness Lodge, just think what having Villas at Fort Wilderness would do to reservations.  And people who haven't a clue about where they want to stay would be thinking they're booking one resort, but end up with the other.
> 
> Would this mean the theme may be different enough from Wilderness Lodge, so people wouldn't be confused?  The Old West train depot might just do that.  It will be interesting to see......



My suggestion of "Villas at Fort Wilderness" was more of a concept then an actual name. I agree that it could be a confusing name. Whatever it's called, I really hope it's part of FW.


----------



## twinklebug

If this is built as a part of the Fort, in all honesty, can any campers can see themselves trading in their wheels for Fort Wilderness DVC points as they grow older? I think if this had been available 10 years back my dad would have DVC instead of a winter home 20 miles away. Or, maybe he'd have both.


----------



## Shan-man

I just did a massing model, assuming 3 stories, just to see the impact on the Fort:






This is obviously very rough, just indicating the main mass of the buildings, without roofs or balconies, or connecting atria. Once I have a more detailed model I will share it for you GoogleEarth users to play with. I just wanted to sketch something up over lunch.


----------



## thecplusplusguy

twinklebug said:


> If this is built as a part of the Fort, in all honesty, can any campers can see themselves trading in their wheels for Fort Wilderness DVC points as they grow older? I think if this had been available 10 years back my dad would have DVC instead of a winter home 20 miles away. Or, maybe he'd have both.



I definately see myself trading in my wheels.......



For better wheels.  The only thing that would make me think about DVC is being a millionaire, or waterfront DVC campsites.

Even in the one I have now, my bed is way more comfortable than any hotel and no sleeps there but me.


Dan


----------



## Lil' Lisa

thecplusplusguy said:


> I definately see myself trading in my wheels.......
> 
> 
> 
> For better wheels. The only thing that would make me think about DVC is being a millionaire, or waterfront DVC campsites.
> 
> Even in the one I have now, my bed is way more comfortable than any hotel and no sleeps there but me.
> 
> 
> Dan


 


Not even if I was a millionaire!


----------



## disney11fan

Please what is tcd...?


----------



## thecplusplusguy

disney11fan said:


> Please what is tcd...?



No answer for you because I'm a classless New England Sports fan.

Dan


----------



## Magicbus

disney11fan said:


> Please what is tcd...?


I would answer you but I'm angry with you for what you wrote about New Englanders on the "bash the Patriots fans" thread.


----------



## Lil' Lisa

disney11fan said:


> Please what is tcd...?


 

TCD stands for Tri-Circle-D.  It is the name of the ranch at Fort Wilderness and it is also the name of one of the members here on the board.


----------



## Magicbus

thecplusplusguy said:


> .


Oh man, delete that info, quick. And you're from Mass.


----------



## Magicbus

Lil' Lisa said:


> .



Traitor!


----------



## disney11fan

Thanks for the positive response to my message re what tcd stood for. By the way go new york...go yankees, go jets and go giants.

The best teams money could ever buy.


To my new england fan club.... How many world series have they won.  And do boo a man when he is hurt shame on you.


----------



## thecplusplusguy

Magicbus said:


> Oh man, delete that info, quick. And you're from Mass.



Done!


----------



## BradyBz12

disney11fan said:


> Thanks for the positive response to my message re what tcd stood for. By the way go new york...go yankees, go jets and go giants.
> 
> The best teams money could ever buy.



Oh dear... 

Might I suggest we get this thread back on topic before it goes horribly wrong and gets closed prematurely?

Pretty please?!?  

It's too good a thread to get shut down.



And that's coming from someone that spent her Sunday afternoon/evening keeping a seat warm at the local watering hole rooting for the Pats.


----------



## disney11fan

lil' lisa said:


> tcd stands for tri-circle-d.  It is the name of the ranch at fort wilderness and it is also the name of one of the members here on the board.



\thanks for taking the time.

Have a great day


----------



## FortWildernessCamper

brookelizabeth said:


> A very interested lurker just had to comment...
> 
> I'm a DVCer and the thought of Villas at Fort Wilderness sound GREAT to me!  I love the idea of escaping into nature - Wilderness Lodge does that to a certain extent already and it's a popular resort.  The "old west" theme could work for us Americans even (Hi Magdalene! ) if done properly.



I could imagine this being the end of the Fort...a monorail and a couple new marinas with an enlarged lake could make this the perfect transportation port for several DVC properties.  As a long range plan, it makes sense. Everyone is having fun speculating what it might be... I am speculating that no one will be happy with what it will be!


----------



## Magicbus

Nah, they won't shut it down. It's all tongue in cheek.


----------



## disney11fan

bradybz12 said:


> oh dear...
> 
> Might i suggest we get this thread back on topic before it goes horribly wrong and gets closed prematurely?
> 
> Pretty please?!?
> 
> It's too good a thread to get shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's coming from someone that spent her sunday afternoon/evening keeping a seat warm at the local watering hole rooting for the pats.



your right...and i'm sorry. Life is to short to start and have bad feelings. Have a great day.


----------



## Magicbus

FortWildernessCamper said:


> a monorail and a couple new marinas with an enlarged lake could make this the perfect transportation port


Monorails, what you see is what you get. Just to get to the MK, I doubt it at about 100 million a mile, give or take 25 million. Half a billion just for that loop can buy lots of boats and buses.


----------



## FortWildernessCamper

Magicbus said:


> Monorails, what you see is what you get. Just to get to the MK, I doubt it at about 100 million a mile, give or take 25 million. Half a billion just for that loop can buy lots of boats and buses.



Thats an excellent point...more boats will allow for character charters.  Nothing draws them in like having goofy at the helm.


----------



## sillykid

Sad...
One of they best threads in quite some time and now nothing.  This thread along with some other railroad findings of TCD are some of the best on here.


----------



## DenLo

GOBA Mom Lynn said:


> I have a feeling that this new resort, be it DVC or not, will have to have some sort of name unto itself.  The "Villas at Fort Wilderness" would end up being a disaster as far as reservations goes.  How many people have been given (or tried to be given) a ressie at Wilderness Lodge because the people at reservations are soooo confused?  Since there already is a Villas at Wilderness Lodge, just think what having Villas at Fort Wilderness would do to reservations.  And people who haven't a clue about where they want to stay would be thinking they're booking one resort, but end up with the other.
> 
> Would this mean the theme may be different enough from Wilderness Lodge, so people wouldn't be confused?  The Old West train depot might just do that.  It will be interesting to see......



Why not Tri Circle Ranch Villas?  That is definitely part of the Fort but not similar to Wilderness Lodge, Villas at Wilderness Lodge, or Ft. Wilderness.


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

DenLo said:


> Why not Tri Circle Ranch Villas?  That is definitely part of the Fort but not similar to Wilderness Lodge, Villas at Wilderness Lodge, or Ft. Wilderness.



I like it !

Just curious, what was the name of the ranch in the original Mickey Mouse Club?


----------



## ftwildernessrick

I could see them designing it more like frontier theme with little of the old West thrown in to make it different than WL.


----------



## 3gr8kids

Mickey'sApprentice said:


> I like it !
> 
> Just curious, what was the name of the ranch in the original Mickey Mouse Club?



I believe it was called the "Triple R Ranch", and it was filmed at Disney's Golden Oak Ranch in California.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Shan-man said:


> Ok, I've been chomping at the bit all day to see what TCD was going to say about this pic that he uploaded to PhotoBucket...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he ain't posting, so I wanted to mention what I noticed about it. See the cannon? See the label that calls it a cannon? See the elevation notation under it? Doesn't that imply that the cannon was in place when the elevations were taken? I think so! So I'll ask again, are the long-time Fort'ers sure they never saw a cannon at the Fort... like around '79-'82? Notice also, they had an ammo carrier labeled due south of the cannon. Pretty cool stuff. I can hear Musket Mickey now, "Hold your posts boys, the French have taken the dock... prepare the 8" gun! Fire!"



Sorry all, but I was off-line for the past four days. So, I have some catching up to do.

Shan-man, I think you are right.  The notation of an elevation would suggest that the cannon was there when the data for the drawing was first prepared.

We know from the changes to the dock at the marina and the notations out in the lake that the data is at least ten years old.



DogDawg said:


> Props to all that have posted on this, probably the most interesting read I've seen on this site (although I am a relative newbie here).  Anyway, I may have missed it, but has there been any disscussion on the ingress/egress to this new build?  Seems like a lot of cars and busses will be headed this way. More than the road from WL can handle?  and parking?  Just my thoughts.  DD



I have some information and photos which I will be posting on this topic.

Traffic to and from this area is a concern of mine, too.

One of the great things about the Settlement area at Fort Wilderness is that there is no motor vehicle traffic around (other than the buses, which stop at the Settlement bus stop).



vonpluto said:


> Back to the cannon for a moment. Here's a pic from page 102 of WDW The First Decade:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the angle of the pic this wheel could be the ammo carrier serving the cannon noted on the drawings.



Good catch.

I recall seeing that photo before.

I always thought that was a wagon wheel.

But, you are right.  It definitely could be the ammo carrier, or even the cannon itself.



ynottony99 said:


> *TCD has not posted since last Thursday.  I'm hoping he made a weekend trip to FW and has dug up some good stuff.  *



Well, your suspicions were correct.

I was, indeed at the Fort.

And, I did a little looking around.

I will be posting some photos soon.  I just need to get them uploaded and organized.




GOBA Mom Lynn said:


> I have a feeling that this new resort, be it DVC or not, will have to have some sort of name unto itself.  The "Villas at Fort Wilderness" would end up being a disaster as far as reservations goes.  How many people have been given (or tried to be given) a ressie at Wilderness Lodge because the people at reservations are soooo confused?  Since there already is a Villas at Wilderness Lodge, just think what having Villas at Fort Wilderness would do to reservations.  And people who haven't a clue about where they want to stay would be thinking they're booking one resort, but end up with the other.
> 
> Would this mean the theme may be different enough from Wilderness Lodge, so people wouldn't be confused?  The Old West train depot might just do that.  It will be interesting to see......



I agree with you about the confusion.  There is already confusion about Wilderness Lodge and Fort Wilderness being separate resorts.



Shan-man said:


> I just did a massing model, assuming 3 stories, just to see the impact on the Fort:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is obviously very rough, just indicating the main mass of the buildings, without roofs or balconies, or connecting atria. Once I have a more detailed model I will share it for you GoogleEarth users to play with. I just wanted to sketch something up over lunch.



Cool.

It doesn't look good, does it?

But, one thing that is off on Google Earth is that it makes the trees look a lot shorter than they really are.  Having just inspected this area, it looks to me like they designed the layout to take advantage of the big group of cypress trees that juts out into the lake by where the old River Country gazebo used to stand.  I think these trees will block the mass of the new buildings.



sillykid said:


> Sad...
> One of they best threads in quite some time and now nothing.  This thread along with some other railroad findings of TCD are some of the best on here.



Not to worry, there is plenty more to come.

While you are waiting for photos, take a look at this:

Disney's Eagle Pines Resort

Back in around 2001, Disney planned to develop the Eagle Pines golf course into a DVC resort.  Plans were actually drawn and permits were applied for.  The project eventually got scrubbed.  The land was sold to third parties, and has morphed into the Golden Oak Resort.

The interesting thing is that, as a previous poster mentioned, the architects who drew the leaked plans are the same firm who prepared the Eagle Pines plans.  They also designed AKL and BLT. 

Not too shabby.

TCD


----------



## NLPRacing

Tri-circle-D said:


> I have some information and photos which I will be posting on this topic.TCD


----------



## sillykid




----------



## takeme2epcot

> I recall seeing that photo before.
> 
> I always thought that was a wagon wheel.
> 
> But, you are right. It definitely could be the ammo carrier, or even the cannon itself.



I can personally attest that this is definitely the ammo carrier. There was this ammo carrier and a cannon in this area. In the very early days of FW, when I was about 6 or 7, this area wasn't fully fenced in and kids could actually play on the cannon and carrier.

A few years later the area was entirely fenced in.

Then a few years later the cannon and carrier disappeared.

Also, did you know that the water wagon predates RC? It, too, was originally part of the playground and my brother and sister and I would climb all over it. I think I have a picture somewhere of my sister and me sitting in the driver seat.

A couple years later (if that long), they painted the RC sign on it.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

takeme2epcot said:


> I can personally attest that this is definitely the ammo carrier. There was this ammo carrier and a cannon in this area. In the very early days of FW, when I was about 6 or 7, this area wasn't fully fenced in and kids could actually play on the cannon and carrier.
> 
> A few years later the area was entirely fenced in.
> 
> Then a few years later the cannon and carrier disappeared.
> 
> Also, did you know that the water wagon predates RC? It, too, was originally part of the playground and my brother and sister and I would climb all over it. I think I have a picture somewhere of my sister and me sitting in the driver seat.
> 
> A couple years later (if that long), they painted the RC sign on it.



I don't recall ever seeing a photo of a cannon at Fort Wilderness.  If you have such a photo, please share it!

TCD


----------



## twinklebug

The closest thing to a cannon at the Fort I can recall were small metal "guns" mounted up in the tree forts the playgrounds used to have. Sorry no pics of those either, but if they were there, it's quite possible a real cannon might have been around.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

OK, for those of you who are still following along, I made a field inspection of the area of this rumored new project over the past weekend.

For the past year or so, survey stakes and flags have been a common sight around Fort Wilderness.  But, up until now, nobody was quite sure what these were all about.

On Saturday, October 30, I spotted some new stakes along the north side of Vista Blvd.  Here are some photos of them:





















One of the stakes was near this paved cut-off from Vista Blvd.:
















Inside Fort Wilderness, just past the group camping area, there is a similar looking gate:











This closed-off, unpaved right of way is adjacent to the road currently used by FW buses and vendors making deliveries to the Settlement area:






So, this new survey stake got me to wondering . . .  Could WDW be contemplating creating a new, separate gate for guests to use to access the new project on the old River Country site?

Here's an aerial view of the area:






On the photo above, the green star marks the location of the cut-off and gate on Vista Blvd.  The yellow star marks where this right-of-way intersects with the right-of-way that terminates near the group camping area parking lot, and the red star marks the location of the rumored DVC project.

As I look at this, it doesn't seem to make much sense for there to be a new entrance constructed on Vista Blvd.  Such an entrance would requires guests to drive quite a way to get to the new project.  Clearly, entering through the Wilderness Lodge entry, and using the existing (currently castmember only) road to access the new project would be a better route.  

Unfortunately, either of these routes would drastically increase vehicle traffic adjacent to the exercise path between FW and WL.

The only other obvious alternative would be to route all traffic through Fort Wilderness, using the route currently used by vendors and castmembers traveling to the Settlement.  This would add a lot of traffic to the campground.  So, that's not a good solution either.

When you get down to it, there isn't a good solution.

That's probably why there was never a parking lot near River Country, and guests were transported back by internal FW transportation.  And, this new project will create a lot more traffic than RC ever did.

Not good.

On another note, I did some looking around for evidence of the cannon and ammo carrier.

As most of you know, the old wagon stood near the playground for years, until it was mysteriously moved in March of this year.  You can see that there were little concrete footers used to keep the wheels from sinking:






So, wouldn't it stand to reason that there would be similar support somewhere in the area where the cannon and ammo carrier stood?

I never noticed this concrete square before:











It looks like this might have been put there to support something.

Of course, this is where the big Christmas tree goes every year.

Maybe it is there for that.

Otherwise, I did not see any "footprints" relating to a cannon or ammo carrier:





















While looking around the area, I saw this new survey marker just inside the fenced in area of River Country:






Like a lot of you, I have also been wondering about the placement of the buildings on the leaked drawing.  Why cram the buildings in so close to Fort Wilderness?

After looking around, it looks to me like the plan is to try to use Discovery Island as a buffer between this project and the Contemporary Resort.  Remember, you could see the Contemporary Resort clearly from River Country.  Apparently, the Imagineers of old did not have a problem with folks in River Country, which was supposed to be set in pre-centennial America, from seeing the modern Contemporary Resort.  But, things have clearly progressed since then.  The Wilderness Lodge is oriented so that the main view from the lobby faces at an angle away from the Contemporary Resort.  The idea at WL is for guests to feel like they are in an old National Park hotel.  They built it so that there are very few glimpses of the Contemporary Resort.  Over at AKL, most guests cannot see anything other than the savannas from their rooms, again, to give the impression that they are in Africa, and not at a hotel in WDW.

So, I see why the proposed buildings seem to curve around the stand of cypress trees in Bay Lake, and the view is directed away from the Contemporary Resort.

But, the plans also seem to show a big central building which faces directly toward the Contemporary Resort.  

This is a photo from the shore of Bay Lake, looking toward the Contemporary Resort from where the curved row of buildings appear on the drawing:






It's a cool view.

In fact, you can see the MK monorail entering the Grand Canyon concourse in the Contemporary Resort if you look carefully at the photo.

But, if the theme of this new resort is gong to be some type of Wilderness Theme, how are they going to deal with the Contemporary Resort and BLT sitting over there.

The view of the Contemporary is even more pronounced from where the main building will sit:






But, I do notice that the main building sits back a way from the water.

I wonder if they plan on leaving the big hill and rocks from River Country to serve as a buffer between the new building and the view of the Contemporary?

Of course, if the view is directed more to the north and east, then guests will be looking right at Discovery Island, and not the Contemporary:











After all of this, I am left with more questions than I answered.

Such as:

1.  Where will guests of the new project park?

2.  How will guests drive to and from the new project?

3.  How will the dominant view of the Contemporary Resort from this parcel be addressed?; and

4.  Why build buildings out into the water?

I have some more photos of the general area to share, and I will post them after everyone has a chance to review and discuss the photos from this post.

TCD


----------



## big kahuna1

Well, personally I think the areas on both sides of this road/path leading to the possible new project area is perfect entrance and main road for additional campground loops all the way to the Lake. It will be called Fort Wilderness II or Fort Mickey.


----------



## WannaBeImagineer

Tri-circle-D said:


> After all of this, I am left with more questions than I answered.
> 
> Such as:
> 
> 1. Where will guests of the new project park?
> 
> 2. How will guests drive to and from the new project?
> 
> 3. How will the dominant view of the Contemporary Resort from this parcel be addressed?; and
> 
> 4. Why build buildings out into the water?
> 
> I have some more photos of the general area to share, and I will post them after everyone has a chance to review and discuss the photos from this post.
> 
> TCD


 
Great research as always TCD! 

I have to agree with you the more I hear or find out about this new project the more questions I have, guess I'll just have to keep looking for new info and hope for the best.


----------



## bookwormde

#4

Fishing from your balcony, just joking (sort of)

Since with the ground conditions everything will be built on piling so why not.

bookwormde


----------



## Capt. Barbosa

From Walt Dated World

http://waltdatedworld.bravepages.com/id220.htm

The November 20, 1977 episode of "The Wonderful World of Disney" One of the highlights included footage of the Mouseketeers at River Country and they sang this song. 


River Country.  Big River Country.  
It's a hoot.  It's a holler!  It's a water jamboree!
River Country.  Big River Country.
If you're hot around the collar it's the cool place to be.


River Country.  Big River Country.
Let 'er rip.  What a drip!  It's a dandy.  It's a beaut.
River Country.  Big River Country.
You can shed your cares over there, but not your bathing suit.


You can slip.
You can slide.
You can zip.
You can dive.
In River Country everyone's a friend.


You can swing from a limb.
You can sink.  
You can swim.
It's a day you'll remember when you're freezin' in December.


River Country.  Big River Country.
There's a lot about it, to brighten up your soul.
River Country.  Big River Country.
Come and join us for a visit to the ol' swimmin' hole.


----------



## vonpluto

I can confirm that the cannon and the ammo cart stood exactly where shown on the drawings. I went thru our vacation videos, and found footage from November 1986 showing both.
  I'll see if I can get some image captures and post them.


----------



## Capt. Barbosa

Not sure this has been posted but I saw this on Twitter this a.m.

Interesting piece on page two of this pdf doesnt say what time period  of the California Coast this would be from but this project sounds more like it would be GF DVC

http://www.georgecooninc.com/file/web site george_projectsreduced(1).pdf



> Disney Vacation Club decided to extend its hotel
> experience with their new California Coast
> Resort at H1, Lake Buena Vista, Orlando, Florida.
> George Coon was invited by the DVC Design
> Team to work under the direct supervision of
> GSB Architects, and Mr. Wing Chao, providing
> design direction for this next and possibly best
> of the DVC properties in Orlando.
> California’s remarkable coast offers an experience
> of recognizable icons which were chosen
> to be represented in separate hotel experiences
> including; Venice Beach, Casa del
> Mar, Montage, the Balboa Pavilion, Laguna
> Hills, Newport Beach, and Santa Barbara. The
> project is presently in the Schematic Design Phase




COMPLETION DATE:
Estimated 2012
SIZE:
Estimated 1,208 units

Thanks go to Tweeter RobonDisney


----------



## Tri-circle-D

bookwormde said:


> #4
> 
> Fishing from your balcony, just joking (sort of)
> 
> Since with the ground conditions everything will be built on piling so why not.
> 
> bookwormde




You're right about all of the buildings probably being up on pilings anyway.

But, it just seems like it creates a lot of unnecessary construction and maintenance issues to build out into the water.  On the other hand, it would create a unique building.



vonpluto said:


> I can confirm that the cannon and the ammo cart stood exactly where shown on the drawings. I went thru our vacation videos, and found footage from November 1986 showing both.
> I'll see if I can get some image captures and post them.



Please post some image captures if you can.  I also received a PM from someone that may have located a photo of the cannon- so stay tuned for that.



Capt. Barbosa said:


> Not sure this has been posted but I saw this on Twitter this a.m.
> 
> Interesting piece on page two of this pdf doesnt say what time period  of the California Coast this would be from but this project sounds more like it would be GF DVC
> 
> http://www.georgecooninc.com/file/web site george_projectsreduced(1).pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMPLETION DATE:
> Estimated 2012
> SIZE:
> Estimated 1,208 units
> 
> Thanks go to Tweeter RobonDisney



Thanks for the link.

Very interesting.

But confusing.

What is H1?

I can't imagine a California themed resort sitting here along Bay Lake adjacent to Fort Wilderness, with all the cypress trees, Spanish Moss and such, and Pioneer Hall sitting nearby.

But, who knows? 

Looking through the portfolio, I see that this group worked on some recent projects up in the Florida panhandle.  I have seen some of their work.  I like what they do.  So, it's a good thing if they are the ones designing this project.  I have faith that they will be respectful of the environment and natural landscape of this area.

TCD


----------



## stopher1

Tri-circle-D said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> Very interesting.
> 
> But confusing.
> 
> What is H1?
> 
> I can't imagine a California themed resort sitting here along Bay Lake adjacent to Fort Wilderness, with all the cypress trees, Spanish Moss and such, and Pioneer Hall sitting nearby.
> 
> But, who knows?
> 
> Looking through the portfolio, I see that this group worked on some recent projects up in the Florida panhandle.  I have seen some of their work.  I like what they do.  So, it's a good thing if they are the ones designing this project.  I have faith that they will be respectful of the environment and natural landscape of this area.
> 
> TCD



The portfolio itself is pretty interesting seeing what else they designed for WDW (Saratoga, Coronado Springs) plus some of the stuff over in Celebration.  

Like you I can't imagine a CA themed resort there by the Fort. Having it along Bay Lake speaks to the beach-culture cities the portfolio mentions, but it would not fit in well between the Fort and the Lodge.  Now if it were somehow themed to Gold Rush era California and the Sierra Nevada... then yeah, but not Southern California beach communities.  

Perhaps that information has surfaced now to try and tamp down the interest of what will eventually go in there by the Fort area, and it'll go in closer to Blizzard Beach (or elsewhere as was previously rumored a few months back) ?     Just a thought.


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

Capt. Barbosa said:


> Not sure this has been posted but I saw this on Twitter this a.m.
> 
> Interesting piece on page two of this pdf doesnt say what time period  of the California Coast this would be from but this project sounds more like it would be GF DVC
> 
> http://www.georgecooninc.com/file/web site george_projectsreduced(1).pdf
> 
> 
> COMPLETION DATE:
> Estimated 2012
> SIZE:
> Estimated 1,208 units
> 
> Thanks go to Tweeter RobonDisney



Aha!!  The other DVC rumor has been with a second gate to Disney Hollywood Studios!! This would be close to Blizzard Beach. 

IMHO, a California themed resort would fit well if adjacent to DHS.

DVC has had more than 1 resort in active sales at any one time, but they generally do not open them at the same time. IF the DHS resort opens in 2012, I wouldn't expect the Ft. Wilderness DVC to open before 2014.


----------



## vonpluto

I give you the cannon:





The caisson or limber (ammo carrier to you civilians):





Bonus! The stockade play area:





All from the porch of Trails End, November 1986.

Regarding the California Coast resort:
H1 is probably Disney code used to confuse those nosy Disney internet geeks!

1208 units?
Larger than OKW or SSR. Slightly smaller than OKW & SSR combined.
This would be a huge resort!


----------



## Thumper_ehhhhh

Frank thanks for the pictures of the cannon. Happy to see someone found some.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

vonpluto said:


> I give you the cannon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The caisson or limber (ammo carrier to you civilians):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bonus! The stockade play area:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All from the porch of Trails End, November 1986.
> 
> Regarding the California Coast resort:
> H1 is probably Disney code used to confuse those nosy Disney internet geeks!
> 
> 1208 units?
> Larger than OKW or SSR. Slightly smaller than OKW & SSR combined.
> This would be a huge resort!



Great job!

Thank you for taking the time to do the image captures and post them.

It's amazing that many folks do not remember the cannon or ammo carrier (to us civilians).

You also almost have a shot of the water wagon.  But, a post blocked the shot.

I didn't think about how big 1208 units would be.  This couldn't be shoved into this little corner of the Fort, could it?  It must refer to some other project.

TCD


----------



## cindymouse6

already taken down.  what was it of?


----------



## NLPRacing

I saved it, how can I make it available to everybody?


----------



## vonpluto

Thumper_ehhhhh and TCD: you're quite welcome,  glad to do it.



Tri-circle-D said:


> Great job!
> 
> I didn't think about how big 1208 units would be.  This couldn't be shoved into this little corner of the Fort, could it?  It must refer to some other project.
> 
> TCD



A couple of thoughts:
 The Fort has approximately 1200  sites (between cabins and RV sites), so this would in some ways double the size of the resort. Packed in tight against Trails End/Pioneer Hall it seems like the Fort would be dramatically changed.

Also, consider the Fantasyland plans. Over this past summer internet scuttlebutt said that they were outdated even by the time they were "leaked".


----------



## TheLug

I saved it also if it is needed.


----------



## TJM1976

3:35 into this video from the World of Disney show is Fort Wilderness.  Watch the clip and it has a good shot of the cannon.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83NRuG3XV7A&feature=related


----------



## takeme2epcot

TJM1976 said:


> 3:35 into this video from the World of Disney show is Fort Wilderness.  Watch the clip and it has a good shot of the cannon.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83NRuG3XV7A&feature=related



Wow! Talk about the law of attraction! I was just thinking about this show two days ago and I was wondering if it was on YouTube!

Anyway, that cannon is actually *not* the Fort cannon! It's a prop they brought in for the show.

And notice the horrible condition of the grass in front of the fort playground!


----------



## Shan-man

I agree that this is not the cannon we've been talking about from the settlement, I wonder why you would assume it's a prop for the show (for a 2 second cutaway, no less)? This cannon jibes with what a previous poster remembered: playing on a cannon near the playground that was not fenced off. I assume this was set up over near 300. The Fort apparently had, count em, two cannons!


----------



## Thumper_ehhhhh

wow and the Fort cannon plot thickens boom boom


----------



## takeme2epcot

Shan-man said:


> I agree that this is not the cannon we've been talking about from the settlement, I wonder why you would assume it's a prop for the show (for a 2 second cutaway, no less)? This cannon jibes with what a previous poster remembered: playing on a cannon near the playground that was not fenced off.



I was that previous poster, and this is not the cannon I played on.

The cannon I played on was the one in the settlement area, the one another poster just posted pictures of from 1986.

Now when I said "not fenced off," allow me to clarify. There was a fence around the area, but there was a wide opening in the fence to allow people in.

You may be right -- perhaps it's not a prop, but considering how the entire scene is shot (notice all the things that did get shot for two second cut aways), plus looking at how the cannon was placed, it doesn't seem to me to be a permanent fixture.

Further -- and I'm not expert in cannons, mind you -- but that cannon appears to be out of its time period. It seems out of place.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

As mentioned earlier, I received a PM from TJM1976 with a link to this old photo:






This is clearly a photo taken from the area somewhere near the north west side of the Settlement Trading Post, looking toward the Pioneer Hall structure.
If you look in the upper left of the photo, it looks like you can possibly see a cannon wheel there in the oval fenced-in area.

I zoomed in on this section of the photo, and this is what I saw:






I see a cannon!

Do you?

But, it looks like it is pointed toward River Country, and not the marina. 

TJM1976 also posted the link to the Mickey Mouse Club video.  I don't recall ever seeing this one before.  There are some great Fort Wilderness scenes in there, including a great shot of the Fort Wilderness Railroad in action.

Here's a screen cap of the cannon shown in the video:






There is no doubt this is a different cannon.

In viewing the scene, I don't think this is the 300 loop playground.

To me, it looks like the van is turning the corner by Crockett's Tavern, and heading toward River Country.  That would put all of this stuff around the area of the Settlement playground.

TCD


----------



## twinklebug

No doubt the cannons depicted are of 2 different types. One was a type to be hooked up to be pulled by a horse, the other was stationary, to be used in a fort or on a ship.

But, this thread has gone off on a tangent... any more discoveries regarding the map and news releases regarding this development? 

I agree that doubling the capacity of the fort through the addition of DVC may negatively impact the fort. With twice the number of people using the Trails End and the boats some changes and additions will need to be made. My bet is they'll add a store to the DVC, possibly a counter service area (arguable as they did not with the addition of Kidani to AKL) and they will most likely put one more boat into service.


----------



## Tri-circle-D

twinklebug said:


> But, this thread has gone off on a tangent... any more discoveries regarding the map and news releases regarding this development?



Um.

This is the camping forum.

That's how we roll.

What's a tangent?




twinklebug said:


> I agree that doubling the capacity of the fort through the addition of DVC may negatively impact the fort. With twice the number of people using the Trails End and the boats some changes and additions will need to be made. My bet is they'll add a store to the DVC, possibly a counter service area (arguable as they did not with the addition of Kidani to AKL) and they will most likely put one more boat into service.



If they are putting a DVC here, then there will have to be a counter service restaurant.

AKL already had a nice counter service restaurant before Kidani Village came along.  Likewise the Contemporary before BLT.  But the Fort does not have one.  One rumor reported on another thread was that the current Fort restaurant, Trail's End, will be completely shut down and replaced by a gift shop, with a brand new restaurant being added with the new construction.  I kind of believe this rumor, as the Trail's End restaurant is very dated, and is not very busy at breakfast or lunch.

TCD


----------



## Lil' Lisa

Tri-circle-D said:


> Um.
> 
> This is the camping forum.
> 
> That's how we roll.
> 
> What's a tangent?
> 
> TCD


tan·gent
   https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/ˈtæn
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




dʒənt/ 

 Show Spelled[*tan*-j_uh
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_nt] 

 Show IPA 
*–adjective *1. in immediate physical contact; touching. 

2. _Geometry _. a. touching at a single point, as a tangent in relation to a curve or surface. 

b. in contact along a single line or element, as a plane with a cylinder. 



3. tangential ( def. 3 ) . 


*–noun *4. _Geometry _. a line or a plane that touches a curve or a surface at a point so that it is closer to the curve in the vicinity of the point than any other line or plane drawn through the point. 

5. _Trigonometry _. a. (in a right triangle) the ratio of the side opposite a given angle to the side adjacent to the angle. 

b. Also called tan. (of an angle) a trigonometric function equal to the ratio of the ordinate of the end point of the arc to the abscissa of this end point, the origin being at the center of the circle on which the arc lies and the initial point of the arc being on the x-axis. _Abbreviation: _ tg, tgn 

c. (originally) a straight line perpendicular to the radius of a circle at one end of an arc and extending from this point to the produced radius which cuts off the arc at its other end. 



6. the upright metal blade, fastened on the inner end of a clavichord key, that rises and strikes the string when the outer end of the key is depressed. 


—Idiom 
7. off on 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




/ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




ata tangent, digressing suddenly from one course of action or thought and turning to another: _The speaker flew off on a tangent. _


*Origin: *
1585–90; < L _tangent- _ (s. of _tangēns, _ prp. of _tangere _ to touch) in phrase _līnea tangēns _ touching line; see -ent

*—Related forms *quasi-tangent, _adjective _

*—Can be confused: *  circumference, diameter, radius, tangent . 

*—Synonyms 
*1.  meeting, abutting. 





I would go with number 7


----------



## Tonka's Skipper

Hi Folks,

I have a question regarding how long the online reservation system has referred to FW As *The Campsites at Fort Wilderness* and not just *Fort Wilderess*

The wording *The Campsites at Fort Wilderness * bring to mind the possiblity that the new resort may be made part of FW? and not have a different name

AKK


----------



## jjbescher

Tri-circle-D said:


> If they are putting a DVC here, then there will have to be a counter service restaurant.
> 
> AKL already had a nice counter service restaurant before Kidani Village came along.  Likewise the Contemporary before BLT.  But the Fort does not have one.  One rumor reported on another thread was that the current Fort restaurant, Trail's End, will be completely shut down and replaced by a gift shop, with a brand new restaurant being added with the new construction.  I kind of believe this rumor, as the Trail's End restaurant is very dated, and is not very busy at breakfast or lunch.
> 
> TCD



Neither Villas at Wilderness Lodge or even Beach Club Villas have their own restaurant (Table or Counter service).  Beach Club made their marketplace (Gift Shop) have food and a drink station, but Wilderness Lodge did not.  When staying at either place, you have to go to the main part of the resort to get food.

jon


----------



## Tri-circle-D

Lil' Lisa said:


> tan·gent
> https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/ˈtæn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dʒənt/
> 
> Show Spelled[*tan*-j_uh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _nt]
> 
> Show IPA
> *adjective *1. in immediate physical contact; touching.
> 
> 2. _Geometry _. a. touching at a single point, as a tangent in relation to a curve or surface.
> 
> b. in contact along a single line or element, as a plane with a cylinder.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. tangential ( def. 3 ) .
> 
> 
> *noun *4. _Geometry _. a line or a plane that touches a curve or a surface at a point so that it is closer to the curve in the vicinity of the point than any other line or plane drawn through the point.
> 
> 5. _Trigonometry _. a. (in a right triangle) the ratio of the side opposite a given angle to the side adjacent to the angle.
> 
> b. Also called tan. (of an angle) a trigonometric function equal to the ratio of the ordinate of the end point of the arc to the abscissa of this end point, the origin being at the center of the circle on which the arc lies and the initial point of the arc being on the x-axis. _Abbreviation: _ tg, tgn
> 
> c. (originally) a straight line perpendicular to the radius of a circle at one end of an arc and extending from this point to the produced radius which cuts off the arc at its other end.
> 
> 
> 
> 6. the upright metal blade, fastened on the inner end of a clavichord key, that rises and strikes the string when the outer end of the key is depressed.
> 
> 
> Idiom
> 7. off on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ata tangent, digressing suddenly from one course of action or thought and turning to another: _The speaker flew off on a tangent. _
> 
> 
> *Origin: *
> 158590; < L _tangent- _ (s. of _tangēns, _ prp. of _tangere _ to touch) in phrase _līnea tangēns _ touching line; see -ent
> 
> *Related forms *quasi-tangent, _adjective _
> 
> *Can be confused: *  circumference, diameter, radius, tangent .
> 
> *Synonyms
> *1.  meeting, abutting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would go with number 7



Thank you professor.

I asked that question in jest.

But, I learned something- definition #6 is new to me.  And, now I have to ask at the risk of starting us off on another tangent:

What is a clavichord?



Tonka's Skipper said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a question regarding how long the online reservation system has referred to FW As *The Campsites at Fort Wilderness* and not just *Fort Wilderess*
> 
> The wording *The Campsites at Fort Wilderness * bring to mind the possiblity that the new resort may be made part of FW? and not have a different name
> 
> AKK



Maybe.

Or, it could just be to distinguish the Campsites at Fort Wilderness from the Cabins at Fort Wilderness.

As I recall, the distinction has been made ever since the on-line reservation system became available.




jjbescher said:


> Neither Villas at Wilderness Lodge or even Beach Club Villas have their own restaurant (Table or Counter service).  Beach Club made their marketplace (Gift Shop) have food and a drink station, but Wilderness Lodge did not.  When staying at either place, you have to go to the main part of the resort to get food.
> 
> jon



I know that.

My point is that that all DVC resort guests have easy access to a quick serve restaurant.  In every case where DVC rooms have been added to an existing resort, the quick serve restaurant is located in the pre-exitsting resort.

Fort Wilderness has no such restaurant.

Yet.

TCD


----------



## Tonka's Skipper

Thank TCD,

If it has been that way awhile.its most likely just the status quot!

My friend we have not always agreed on everything, but I bow to your great knowledge on FW! and lots of other stuff for that matter!

AKK


----------



## HockeyKat

Tri-circle-D said:


> I know that.
> 
> My point is that that all DVC resort guests have easy access to a quick serve restaurant.  In every case where DVC rooms have been added to an existing resort, the quick serve restaurant is located in the pre-exitsting resort.
> 
> Fort Wilderness has no such restaurant.
> 
> Yet.
> 
> TCD



I am going to disagree here.   Kidani Village does not have what I consider "easy access" to a QS restaurant.  Getting on a bus or walking 15-20 minutes on a virtually umarked, through the parking lot type path, isn't really easy access to me.  

BWV has the same issue.   I guess you do have the Spoodles pizza window and the cash-only wagons, but no real QS restaurant.


----------



## DenLo

Tri-circle-D said:


> . . . . .
> My point is that that all DVC resort guests have easy access to a quick serve restaurant.  In every case where DVC rooms have been added to an existing resort, the quick serve restaurant is located in the pre-exitsting resort.
> 
> Fort Wilderness has no such restaurant.
> 
> Yet.
> 
> TCD



Perhaps the new resort will have it's own QS restaurant that the Fort guests would use as well.  But like others have mentioned not all DVC members are happy with the availability or location of a QS restaurant in the current resorts.  We sound a bit pampered don't we?  I have to admit I'm always amazed when DVC members complain about the length of walk from their rooms or to a restaurant when they walk miles each day at the parks.


----------



## Debbie Jean

DenLo said:


> Perhaps the new resort will have it's own QS restaurant that the Fort guests would use as well.  But like others have mentioned not all DVC members are happy with the availability or location of a QS restaurant in the current resorts.  We sound a bit pampered don't we?  I have to admit I'm always amazed when DVC members complain about the length of walk from their rooms or to a restaurant when *they walk miles each day at the parks.*



I think it's because they walk miles in the parks that they don't want to have to do it to get to a QS at their resort  

I use a scooter so the trip over to Jambo from Kidani isn't really as much an issue  But you know it's a hike when they tell you that there is also bus service you can use 

Seriously, with a couple of exceptions, DVC  really doesn't do QS very well... neither the Mara or Artist Pallette are large nor do they have particularly varied menus, though I like both. DVC  does much better with TS offerings... and Room Service.  It would surprise me... in a good way ... if there was a really good QS  at the new resort.


----------



## proudmomof4

I don't know if this means anything but a few days ago I received an e-mail invite to a survey specifically about food and beverage offerings at Fort Wilderness.

The survey gave me 12 different scenarios with 4 different "restaurant" options in each scenario, I had to pick one "most likely" to eat at and one "least likely" to eat at in each scenario.


----------



## Doug7856

proudmomof4 said:


> I don't know if this means anything but a few days ago I received an e-mail invite to a survey specifically about food and beverage offerings at Fort Wilderness.
> 
> The survey gave me 12 different scenarios with 4 different "restaurant" options in each scenario, I had to pick one "most likely" to eat at and one "least likely" to eat at in each scenario.



Can I ask what some of the scenarios and "restaurant" option were in the survey?


----------



## proudmomof4

Doug7856 said:


> Can I ask what some of the scenarios and "restaurant" option were in the survey?



The 12 scenarios were basically "if you had the following 4 options to choose from which one would you most likely choose and which would you least likely choose?"

The 4 choices were various combinations from (I have to kind paraphrase as I don't remember their exact wording):

A fine dining establishment with multi course meals and fine wines

Dinner show

Character dining

Buffet 

Quick Service (burgers, pizzas, salads, etc)

Food Court (similar to Value and Mod resorts)

An American Bar and Grill type place (I pictured something like TGIFridays or 
Applebees or like Crocketts Tavern used to be)

International dining(Japanese, Mexican, Chinese, etc)

An expanded pool bar and grill with more food and adult drink options 

A specialty coffee and pastry type cafe

And I think there may have been a place that was more geared to adults with drinks and appetizers offered, but I may have that confused with the TGIFridays like place.


----------



## Lil' Lisa

proudmomof4 said:


> I don't know if this means anything but a few days ago I received an e-mail invite to a survey specifically about food and beverage offerings at Fort Wilderness.
> 
> The survey gave me 12 different scenarios with 4 different "restaurant" options in each scenario, I had to pick one "most likely" to eat at and one "least likely" to eat at in each scenario.


 
I got the same one.  It was one of those psych tests where you felt like they were asking you the same question over and over again in different ways!


----------



## proudmomof4

Lil' Lisa said:


> I got the same one.  It was one of those psych tests where you felt like they were asking you the same question over and over again in different ways!



Funny, yes that is what it felt like.

Hopefully it means something though, but knowing the way things are handled at the fort, probably not.


----------



## Doug7856

Thanks proudmomof4!


----------



## MandMLUVMMandDVC

I had something similar recently about Saratoga Springs.  About 3 months later they announced a couple of changes.....straight from that survey.  Hopefully this means good stuff for FW


----------



## ftwildernessrick

If I had my wish for food options, it would be this:

1) Keep Trails End
2) Expand the size of Crockett's Tavern to include table service and put things back on its menu like steaks, fajitas, etc.
3) Then add a quick service area with pizza, burgers, sandwiches, salads, snacks, etc.

They should be able to service all three from one expanded kitchen, if need be.


----------



## CoolMom2112

Tri-circle-D said:


> And, now I have to ask at the risk of starting us off on another tangent:
> 
> What is a clavichord?
> 
> 
> TCD



Its kind of like a piano, except the strings are hit with a metal hammer instead of a felt one.

CoolMom2112

BTW  LOVING this thread!!!


----------



## TJM1976

I plan on a little visit to the Fort this coming weekend for a few moments.  If I see anything worth reporting back, I shall do so!


----------



## Magicbus

TJM1976 said:


> I plan on a little visit to the Fort this coming weekend for a few moments.  If I see anything worth reporting back, I shall do so!


For a few moments???? What's the rush? Stay a while and say hi to the Fiends that are there. I'll be wearing my green ears, look for me.


----------



## TJM1976

Magicbus said:


> For a few moments???? What's the rush? Stay a while and say hi to the Fiends that are there. I'll be wearing my green ears, look for me.



Well, I do live in Orlando and plan on going to EC for the last weekend of Food and Wine.  I've managed to convience the friends going with me to "go off on a tangent" (that was for TCD  ) and swing by for a few minutes.  I just want to see if anyting new has happened and take a few pics.  I'm one of those who loves looking at vintage and construction pics of WDW.  So I have to "document the present and future".


----------



## BradyBz12

I've got  new camera to break in and we'll be there in *5 days!!!*

Anything in particular anyone wants scoped out, let me know.  I'll make a list.


----------



## ynottony99

BradyBz12 said:


> I've got  new camera to break in and we'll be there in *5 days!!!*
> 
> Anything in particular anyone wants scoped out, let me know.  I'll make a list.



*Photograph everything!!!  Have a safe trip!*


----------



## sillykid

Bump!


----------



## TJM1976

I stopped by Saturday for a few minutes....  nothing new happening that I could see.


----------



## TJM1976

our thread has died


----------



## caveat lector

I fear that the demise of the thread is pre-mature.  I'm betting we are "one new surveryor's stick popping up" away from a new round of conjecture.  The fun will be back!


----------



## NLPRacing

TJM1976 said:


> our thread has died



Let's keep it going with some conjecture.  I'll start, I think this new DVC addition will be part of the Fort.  When booking online, they already have the Campsites at Fort Wilderness and the Cabins at Fort Wilderness.  Why not the Villas at Fort Wilderness.


----------



## sillykid

I see this coming as well. The only issue I see is the building over the water.  Sure it's been done, but at probably a great cost.


----------



## FWRR3

Back in my youth I had a friend that had an apartment in a two story wooden building built on pilings on the bayside in Ocean City, Maryland. When boats went by in the nearby channel, the apartment would sway a few times. It was delightful!  

Hey, that's something Disney hasn't done, a floating hotel!


----------



## bookwormde

Driving pilings close to the shore is only minimally more expensive than on land.

bookwormde


----------



## sillykid

bookwormde said:


> Driving pilings close to the shore is only minimally more expensive than on land.
> 
> bookwormde



good point.  I know that in the swamp land they need to do it whether on land or shore.


----------



## amberjack




----------



## TuckandStuiesMom

Here's a funny little tangent -- just followed the GC architecture link and up popped a rendering for "the modern cracker" (we called'em Shotgun houses). A VERY interesting and economy-appropriate approach to resort design -- please note the pet-friendly front porch for Old Yeller and/or Ladybird. Further amenities include a covered side addition for hanging out wet clothes or setting up one's portable distillation installation (roof offers discrete privacy  shelter from helicoptor-borne revenoo-ers).

Just throwin' it out there...


----------



## Mickey'sApprentice

That sounds great for the Port Orleans DVC.

That has been speculated more than rumored. Plus, Port Orleans DVC is controversial as all DVCs have been at Deluxe resorts thus far.


----------



## BayLake Campers

Construction is close. The drainage drawings have been signed.

http://my.sfwmd.gov/cmsdk/content/ifs/apps/RegDocFolder/ERPTechnical/101021-29epdp%20stables%20sfwmd%20set%20signed%202010_101279963.pdf


----------



## WannaBeImagineer

BayLake Campers said:


> Construction is close. The drainage drawings have been signed.
> 
> http://my.sfwmd.gov/cmsdk/content/i...p stables sfwmd set signed 2010_101279963.pdf


 
Way to keep checking!  But those were actually submitted back in October, on the 22nd I think.  If you look where you found these you can see that SFWMD actually had some comments that need to be addressed.  After the engineer resubmits SFWMD has another 30 days to review.  So we still have a little while, an this is only for the ERP they still have to get their construction permit through the district.


----------



## dsw

Hey all! I'm a newbie poster, but a long time reader on the boards.  We just returned today from a long weekend at FW and I just wanted to report what I heard.  While we were near the horse stables/pony rides we slyly brought up the moving of the stables to the front of FW and the employee replied, "yes you're right they were going to move the stables but the funding for that project has recently been dropped." I'm not sure if Disney's just telling their employees that or if it's true.  When we asked her about the supposed building being built near the lake she said she hadn't heard about that yet, but that Disney doesn't tell them much. Guess we'll just have to wait and see...but thought I'd share what we heard just yesterday (12/12/10).


----------



## ynottony99

*Over the weekend I poked around a little to see what was going on.  Only thing that I could see that had changed was that all of the wooden markers that were all around the Settlement were gone.  The only ones still in place were on the walking trail that takes off from behind the Settlement Trading post.*


----------



## ynottony99

*A few photos from the weekend. Nothing really to talk about, but I took the photos so here they are.

The service area behind Pioneer Hall.  I don't recall seeing the yellow railing on the roof there before.  Maybe some work being done.





Looking out toward the lake.






On the walking trail behind Settlement Trading Post.
































The Tank is still sitting in the service area.



*


----------



## DaveInTN

Ok....THAT is a fascinating turn of events.


----------



## lisareniff

Very interesting....


----------



## sillykid

River Country Area Rumor 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a frequent lurker and rare poster. I have read all the rumors and remember a page with drawings etc. of the River Country site but I cannot find the thread so I am posting new. Please do not blast: I am only reporting what I heard and saw.

Last week I did a fishing cruise on Bay lake. It was frigid cold and we didn't catch many fish, but the guide was a nice guy who has been working at Disney for almost 20 years.

On the way back he took us past Discovery Island and the River Country site. I noticed there were a number of stakes driven into the water in a semi-circular pattern (very similar to the drawings of a building I had seen on this site). When I asked him what they were, he said there had been some folks out putting those stakes in the water a few weeks ago. He had a chance to talk to the people and they said there were plans to put a new resort in the area and they were doing a site survey. Apparently the resort would include an "over-water building" of some type.

He also said he parks in the River Country lot and has been informed that his parking arrangements "will be changing within 6 months".

There was a lot more but most of it was speculation. The stakes in the water were brightly colored and obviously not extremely old: they had streamer paper on them which wasn't badly discolored.

I know the old adage about listening to cast members, but unless this guy put the stakes with streamers in the water himself, in the same general area as the prints I had seen on this site, well....I will let you be the judge. I for one now believe there is something going on at or near the RC site. Wish I had taken a pic but it was just too cold and it was a brief moment. 


**Anyone seen any of these stakes in the water yet?


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## Lil' Lisa

.


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## ynottony99




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## Mickey'sApprentice

A DVC CM at one of the booths in one of the theme parks hinted at DVC going to Fort Wilderness. She said she was more certain of DVC going to National Harbor in Washington D.C.

I didn't ask, I was kind of under the impression that she was getting her information off the disboards.


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## DisCamper

This could be the first stage of something that was talked about years ago. Moving the Fort to a new location. I hope not


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## bookwormde

I not think there is any chance of the fort moving, lots of room to put 500 dvc room in without.

I am beginning to doubt the viability of national Harbor DVC  since you can get a Wyndom 2br for $150/night as a rental.  Who whould use 40+ DVC points when you can do that. 

bookwormde


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## tim5055

Mickey'sApprentice said:


> She said she was more certain of DVC going to National Harbor in Washington D.C.



Disney Buys Land for Future Resort Hotel at National Harbor

National Harbor Sells Land to Disney

Looking Beyond the Press Release: Disney at National Harbor

A Disney/DVC property in the Washington DC area would probably make for a good "destination".  Disney has been trying to get into the Washington DC area for decades.

Disney Wages the Latest Battle of Manassas

A New Battle of Manassas Is Under Way in the Senate

Disney surrenders Va. theme-park battle


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## pepperidge

any new information out there?


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## Jaaron2




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## ynottony99

*Spent a couple of hours at the Fort this morning.  I saw no new indications of construction.  Time will tell.*


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## Tri-circle-D

Since quite a few folks are still interested in what is going on with the stable relocation plans, I decided to check the South Florida Water Management website to see if there has been any activity on the permit application that WBI found back in October.

There has been no activity on the permit application for two months now.

The last document posted is this letter from November 16:


















The letter says that the requested information was due in 90 days.

It's been over 60 days now.

Tick-tock.

I can confirm what Ynottony99 posted:  There really hasn't been any sign of any imminent construction at the Fort since October.

Maybe Disney is backing off on this project?

TCD


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## lisareniff

From other boards I have picked up hints that they have backed off of the DVC at River Country.  That is not saying there wouldn't be a development in the WL/FW/STOL area.


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## nuts

lisareniff said:


> From other boards I have picked up hints that they have backed off of the DVC at River Country.  That is not saying there wouldn't be a development in the WL/FW/STOL area.



Can you point us those sources? Thanks!


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## margitmouse

Capt. Barbosa said:


> I'm liking the idea of an old western town design with a Railroad station built in , it would fit with the fort theme and pay homage to Walts love of steam trains.



sorry to be quoting waaaay out of context, but I really loved what you said but also felt sad.... I feel that "Disney" as a Corporation has drifted far afield from Walts original dreams. I would love to see something like this too, but with things like Toontown being  redeveloped into "princessworld", i see so many things that were delightful being replaced by things marketable.

I hope I'm proven wrong, and you are right! What a GREAT idea!


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## univmd

We camped at FW earlier this month for the 2011 Disney Marathon.  The bus driver started a conversation by telling us that a DVC resort was going to be built between FW campground and FW Lodge.  Not sure if the bus driver is a good source or not


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## Thumper_ehhhhh

univmd said:


> We camped at FW earlier this month for the 2011 Disney Marathon.  The bus driver started a conversation by telling us that a DVC resort was going to be built between FW campground and FW Lodge.  Not sure if the bus driver is a good source or not



They are one of the best places to get accurate information from. Nice rig by the way.


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## dizfan

Screamscape posted the following today...



> 2013/2014 - New Disney DVC Resort Hotel - Rumor - (2/14/11) According to one of our readers, new survey markers were spotted in the Fort Wilderness area along the nature trails near the marina and near the Settlement Trading Post. Could this be more signs of forward traction on that proposed new DVC Resort?


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## margitmouse

As much as I'd love to see a DVC in this area... does anyone else have concerns about how the population of a new resort in this area will impact the delightful peace and quiet of FW???


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## 2goofycampers

I'm taking the wait and see approach.


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## ynottony99

*From what I could see this weekend, there is no activity.  Didn't see any new markers or any changes.*


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## npcougar

Could be just a rumor, but here is an update:

http://www.epcyclopedia.com/2012/04...derness-dvc-files-to-start-construction-soon/


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## bigblock396

Wow, that's some interesting info - hadn't heard anything new on this for a long time. 

I'm sure this news will spread real fast as soon as the word "gets out" to other forums.   The web will be *a buzz* as alot of people are interested in this expansion.

Thanks for the update.


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## lisareniff

So what is the pavilion being built for???

Does the HDDR closure for a few months have any thing to do with this construction?


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## bama_ed

lisareniff said:


> So what is the pavilion being built for???
> 
> Does the HDDR closure for a few months have any thing to do with this construction?



Lisa,

In a nutshell,

1.  A new pavilion would be built for Mickey's Backyard BBQ behind the Settlement Trading Post along the lake near the 100 and 200 loops.  

2.  The Tri-Circle-D horse barn, blacksmithing shop, etc. would be relocated up to the Outpost (check-in) area of the Fort where the Trail Ride horses and corrals are.  (I guess this would take out the Pony ride area and petting zoo animals.)

3.  In the drawings released so far, Pioneer Hall and Trail's End buildings (including HDDR) appear unchanged (but I bet that is subject to review).

4.  Behind PH and TE replacing the BBQ Pavilion, Barn, and River Country area, the drawings show buildings arranged in an arc, some overhanging the current shoreline.  No indication how many stories tall they are.

5.  Soil sampling and ground compaction tests have been done to determine the makeup of the soil in the new building areas

6.  The permit referred to in the link above is at the old STOL airstrip which is parallel to World Drive between the MK Toll Booth and the TTC.

7.  The same STOL airstrip was permitted last year to allow for some paving and setting up of construction trailers for the Grand Floridian DVC job currently underway.  (Anytime dirt is going to be covered over with pavement a permit has to be filed which is where this stuff usually is then discovered).

I'd kinda be surprised if they started on a FW project so soon after starting the GF DVC project but you never know. 

Bama ED


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## lisareniff

Thanks for the great summary Bama_ed!  

I had been following these developements but it had been so long that I had forgotten about the pavilion.  

The HDDR is scheduled to be closed this fall from Oct - Dec.  Any connection?


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## bama_ed

lisareniff said:


> The HDDR is scheduled to be closed this fall from Oct - Dec.  Any connection?



Honestly I have no idea.

Bama ED


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## Mouse14

im sorry but what is TCD?


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## 2goofycampers

Tri-Circle-D Ranch

http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/recreation/tri-circle-d-ranch-farm/


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## bama_ed

2goofycampers said:


> Tri-Circle-D Ranch
> 
> http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/recreation/tri-circle-d-ranch-farm/



Yepper.  A circle for the Mickey head, two circles for the Mickey ears, and if your name is "D"-isney then that's it.

Bama ED


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## rickod

sorry to dig up an old thread, but does this shed light on anything ?

epcyclopedia.com/2012/04/02/walt-disney-world-fort-wilderness-dvc-files-to-start-construction-soon

also, i was there the end of October 2011.  my family and i were walking into the woods along the path of the old railroad.  we started near the bus station by TCD ranch.  there is a golf cart parking area across the street.  you can clearly see where the old rails were and some of the boards are still there.  we walked into the woods hoping to find a spike as a souvenir.  i noticed plenty of survey markers along the way.  some looked very fresh, but that could be because they are not in the open.


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## rickod

also forgot to mention...
on 10-26-2010, ynottony99 posted a link to a picture showing the future site of Buffalo-Junction.  less than a week ago, i checked out this link and it still showed this to be true.  i went there today and it no longer shows anything about Buffalo-Junction.


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