# Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?



## aristocatz

Just wondering if anyone knows if David's has any capacity for reimbursement since the parks and resorts are now closed? Or rescheduling for a later date?

My parents were paid in full for their trip, but parks and hotels will be closed during their dates.  

They emailed Davids and are still awaiting a reply.

Thanks!


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## karpy111

Please keep us/me updated.  I am in the same boat.  We have a trip planned for early May.  I also booked for Davids and im curious as to how they will handle this situation.  

Thanks!


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## davper

The contract is pretty clear. Unless there is negligence on the part of the member that causes you not to have a room when you arrive, there is no refund. You are encouraged to get insurance for you trip because there are no refunds in case something happens.

The member can choose to help if they can but they are not obligated to.

I would allow the renter to reschedule up to when the points expire. I have points rented out for the last week in April and the 1st week in may. The points expire on May 31st. Unless the renter can reschedule to use all before May 31st, they are out of luck.


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## Sandisw

This link shows what Davids has just posted.
https://www.disboards.com/threads/does-davids-tell-you-if-the-renter-cancels.3796406/post-61686452


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## aristocatz

Thanks so much. They did get trip insurance, but apparently it does not cover when parks are unexpectedly closed or pandemics. They assumed they weren't getting anything back or option to reschedule, just checking their options, in case they missed something.


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## Disneyepcot

davper said:


> The contract is pretty clear. Unless there is negligence on the part of the member that causes you not to have a room when you arrive, there is no refund. You are encouraged to get insurance for you trip because there are no refunds in case something happens.
> 
> The member can choose to help if they can but they are not obligated to.
> 
> I would allow the renter to reschedule up to when the points expire. I have points rented out for the last week in April and the 1st week in may. The points expire on May 31st. Unless the renter can reschedule to use all before May 31st, they are out of luck.


Unless your points were already banked from the previous UY, wouldn't you be willing to have DVC give you back your points and allow you to bank them into the next UY. (I've read they are eliminating the banking deadline at this time unless previously banked.)  Therefore this would allow you to be more generous with rescheduling the renter a reservation.


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## Sandisw

Disneyepcot said:


> Unless your points were already banked from the previous UY, wouldn't you be willing to have DVC give you back your points and allow you to bank them into the next UY. (I've read they are eliminating the banking deadline at this time unless previously banked.)  Therefore this would allow you to be more generous with rescheduling the renter a reservation.



DVC is no longer adjusting banking and borrowing rules.  The only rule being waived is the holding rule.  That rule mean that points could only be rebooked for reservations 60 days or less,

So, if an owner booked a renter on banked or borrowed points, those points will expire based on the UY of those points.  Depending on when that is, would depend how far out a new reservation can be booked.

If the points being returned are current UY points, but the owner is beyond the banking deadline, those points will now also expire at the end of the UY.


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## Deb & Bill

Sandisw said:


> DVC is no longer adjusting banking and borrowing rules.  The only rule being waived is the holding rule.  That rule mean that points could only be rebooked for reservations 60 days or less,
> 
> So, if an owner booked a renter on banked or borrowed points, those points will expire based on the UY of those points.  Depending on when that is, would depend how far out a new reservation can be booked.
> 
> If the points being returned are current UY points, but the owner is beyond the banking deadline, those points will now also expire at the end of the UY.


That means the renter is going to have to be very flexible in rescheduling their trip.


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## Sandisw

Deb & Bill said:


> That means the renter is going to have to be very flexible in rescheduling their trip.



Yes, and in some cases, the renter may not even have that option if the points expire end of March or May because nothing expires end oF April with no May UY (and that statement is for renters who may not know there is no May UY)


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## KingRichard

davper said:


> The contract is pretty clear. Unless there is negligence on the part of the member that causes you not to have a room when you arrive, there is no refund. You are encouraged to get insurance for you trip because there are no refunds in case something happens.
> 
> The member can choose to help if they can but they are not obligated to.
> 
> I would allow the renter to reschedule up to when the points expire. I have points rented out for the last week in April and the 1st week in may. The points expire on May 31st. Unless the renter can reschedule to use all before May 31st, they are out of luck.


This were we are at with our renters. Rental middle of May and my points expire on the 31st.


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## CraigInPA

Deb & Bill said:


> That means the renter is going to have to be very flexible in rescheduling their trip.



I can't imagine that even half the renters can be accommodated, since the next nine months include fall frenzy, owners will have points expiring, and the renters themselves may not have the flexibility to go when rooms are available.


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## GoingSince1990

aristocatz said:


> Just wondering if anyone knows if David's has any capacity for reimbursement since the parks and resorts are now closed? Or rescheduling for a later date?
> 
> My parents were paid in full for their trip, but parks and hotels will be closed during their dates.
> 
> They emailed Davids and are still awaiting a reply.
> 
> Thanks!


Did they pay by credit card? If so, they should be able to dispute the charge and get a full refund to their card.


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## Beesknees6

KingRichard said:


> This were we are at with our renters. Rental middle of May and my points expire on the 31st.


So what will you do? I’m in a similar situation


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## aristocatz

CraigInPA said:


> I can't imagine that even half the renters can be accommodated, since the next nine months include fall frenzy, owners will have points expiring, and the renters themselves may not have the flexibility to go when rooms are available.



I wonder what the likelihood is of Disney extending point expiration for the length of time the parks& resorts are closed?


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## Sandisw

aristocatz said:


> I wonder what the likelihood is of Disney extending point expiration for the length of time the parks& resorts are closed?



They currently are not,  I think given the nature of the points based system, and not knowing how long this will last, they are holding to all policies except holding because it could overload the system if this goes beyond the 2 weeks,,,,which most likely will.


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## aristocatz

Sandisw said:


> They currently are not,  I think given the nature of the points based system, and not knowing how long this will last, they are holding to all policies except holding because it could overload the system if this goes beyond the 2 weeks,,,,which most likely will.


It seems like they should offer members something right? Especially if the closure ends up to be a substantial amount of time. Is there a clause in their contract that covers long term closures? Just seems like the right thing to do to offer some sort of coverage after this is all done....at least for PR sake


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## Sandisw

aristocatz said:


> It seems like they should offer members something right? Especially if the closure ends up to be a substantial amount of time. Is there a clause in their contract that covers long term closures? Just seems like the right thing to do to offer some sort of coverage after this is all done....at least for PR sake



We are owners of the resorts, so really, anything done would have to be in line with timeshare laws,

Our POS states the rules and I don’t remember specific regarding this, other than if a resort is destroyed and can’t be rebuilt, the insurance payout would be divided between all the owners,

There is a clause that says they can suspend banking and borrowing of points if there was a need,    So, if this lasts long, thst could be a measure down the road,

The thing is that the system can t be overloaded with points and my own opinion is this is why they realized they can’t make exceptions to the banking and borrowing rules,...although they did last week for a few days and quickly reversed it yesterday.

Personally, I just Think there are many members who are going to suffer through this and lose points.


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## aristocatz

Sandisw said:


> We are owners of the resorts, so really, anything done would have to be in line with timeshare laws,
> 
> Our POS states the rules and I don’t remember specific regarding this, other than if a resort is destroyed and can’t be rebuilt, the insurance payout would be divided between all the owners,
> 
> There is a clause that says they can suspend banking and borrowing of points if there was a need,    So, if this lasts long, thst could be a measure down the road,
> 
> The thing is that the system can t be overloaded with points and my own opinion is this is why they realized they can’t make exceptions to the banking and borrowing rules,...although they did last week for a few days and quickly reversed it yesterday.
> 
> Personally, I just Think there are many members who are going to suffer through this and lose points.



That's too bad  I mean, obviously this is not Disney's fault, but it's too bad there's not much they can do.


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## Sandisw

aristocatz said:


> That's too bad  I mean, obviously this is not Disney's fault, but it's too bad there's not much they can do.



  I think the hard part of understanding this all is that DVC is not really Disney.  Yes, they manage it for us, but it isn't the same as what we think of as Disney.  Everything that goes on with DVC...discounts, etc...are negotiated on behalf of members with Disney Parks and Resorts (or whatever division).  

Now, that is not to say that maybe they could not try to arrange some type of additional perks or discounts with those divisions to soften the blow, but again, given how much those areas will lose, I wouldn't get my own hopes up that we are going to come out of this as members, as a whole, unscathed.


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## heynowirv

They could extend our contracts for whatever amount of time they are closed down.I see this as much longer than 2-3 weeks probably more like 2-3 months.Say you own OKW or BWV and your contract ends 1/31/2042 they could extend it to say 3/31/2042 and make everyone happy.


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## rkstocke5609

EVERYONE, DVC owner or not will be directly or indirectly impacted by this situation.  While it isn’t good, lost points are just part of the risk of the vacation club / timeshare system we are owners of.  I actually really feel sad for David’s and other rental brokers.  This could potentially destroy these businesses and likely really hurt the rental market moving forward.  Ultimately really diminish the value of DVC resales too.  I am sure many bought in with the expectation of a vibrant rental market — if that is crippled, DVC resale values would likely fall as well..


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## Sandisw

heynowirv said:


> They could extend our contracts for whatever amount of time they are closed down.I see this as much longer than 2-3 weeks probably more like 2-3 months.Say you own OKW or BWV and your contract ends 1/31/2042 they could extend it to say 3/31/2042 and make everyone happy.



Wouldn't that require all new deeds?  I wasn't around when they extended the land lease for OKW, so not sure exactly what they entailed.


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## heynowirv

Sandisw said:


> Wouldn't that require all new deeds?  I wasn't around when they extended the land lease for OKW, so not sure exactly what they entailed.


I don't know it was just a thought.


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## heynowirv

rkstocke5609 said:


> EVERYONE, DVC owner or not will be directly or indirectly impacted by this situation.  While it isn’t good, lost points are just part of the risk of the vacation club / timeshare system we are owners of.  I actually really feel sad for David’s and other rental brokers.  This could potentially destroy these businesses and likely really hurt the rental market moving forward.  Ultimately really diminish the value of DVC resales too.  I am sure many bought in with the expectation of a vibrant rental market — if that is crippled, DVC resale values would likely fall as well..


I can't speak for others but it was never our intent to rent when we bought DVC, we just had points we couldn't use and were running out of time to use.


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## rkstocke5609

heynowirv said:


> I can't speak for others but it was never our intent to rent when we bought DVC, we just had points we couldn't use and were running out of time to use.


Sure, but you likely knew it was something you could do if you couldn’t use your points at some point.  I’m just saying that resale buyers will know about all the people that got screwed out of their money because of the virus and renting points will be considered risky in the future — hence not a valuable part of owning points.  I’ve heard of people that own twice as many points as they need that rent half of them to cover maintenance fees....


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## CanAdianDad

davper said:


> The contract is pretty clear. Unless there is negligence on the part of the member that causes you not to have a room when you arrive, there is no refund. You are encouraged to get insurance for you trip because there are no refunds in case something happens.
> 
> The member can choose to help if they can but they are not obligated to.
> 
> I would allow the renter to reschedule up to when the points expire. I have points rented out for the last week in April and the 1st week in may. The points expire on May 31st. Unless the renter can reschedule to use all before May 31st, they are out of luck.



That’s actually not true it actually states  “including but not limited to negligence”


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## Beachmom0317

rkstocke5609 said:


> EVERYONE, DVC owner or not will be directly or indirectly impacted by this situation.  While it isn’t good, lost points are just part of the risk of the vacation club / timeshare system we are owners of.  I actually really feel sad for David’s and other rental brokers.  This could potentially destroy these businesses and likely really hurt the rental market moving forward.  Ultimately really diminish the value of DVC resales too.  I am sure many bought in with the expectation of a vibrant rental market — if that is crippled, DVC resale values would likely fall as well..


I agree! I have a small contract at CCV and we aren’t going in 2020 so we rented out our points. Thankfully my only rental affected by the closures was a one night stay that I just happened to still have the money from, so I just refunded the renter. Points were no where near expiring. My two rentals for October and January: the money is looooong gone to other expenses, such as maintenance fee. I know in the future if we take a year off I will likely be banking points for 1 bedroom accommodations instead of a studio since this seems like such a headache for owners when it comes to expiring and banked points. I really feel for everyone. It’s tough all around.


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## Marionnette

rkstocke5609 said:


> EVERYONE, DVC owner or not will be directly or indirectly impacted by this situation.  While it isn’t good, lost points are just part of the risk of the vacation club / timeshare system we are owners of.  I actually really feel sad for David’s and other rental brokers.  This could potentially destroy these businesses and likely really hurt the rental market moving forward.  Ultimately really diminish the value of DVC resales too.  I am sure many bought in with the expectation of a vibrant rental market — if that is crippled, DVC resale values would likely fall as well..


There’s a lot of truth in this statement. This could kill the rental market in a way that Disney never could. I know that I’m watching to see how each of the rental agencies treats their owners. I won’t deal with them in the future if I think that they’ve treated their owners unfairly now. I bought my contracts to use them for myself and my family.  I do rent to people I know. But there has always been the option to list with an agency if I felt the need. I have used them in the past but will be reluctant to use them in the future.


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## Cyberc1978

Marionnette said:


> There’s a lot of truth in this statement. This could kill the rental market in a way that Disney never could. I know that I’m watching to see how each of the rental agencies treats their owners. I won’t deal with them in the future if I think that they’ve treated their owners unfairly now. I bought my contracts to use them for myself and my family.  I do rent to people I know. But there has always been the option to list with an agency if I felt the need. I have used them in the past but will be reluctant to use them in the future.



rental market might take a dip but when members rent to renter with or without a broker there is always a risk, most just don’t want to admit it. This situation is force majeure and everyone ends up as losers. Members with expiring points will lose if they refund renters. Renters will lose if members don’t refund them.

IMO this is why you always need a travelers insurance that covers everything. If you don’t get the insurance you knowingly take the risk even though the risk is not that big it is still there.

Going forward I foresee more people getting the insurance that covers everything.


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## CarolMN

heynowirv said:


> They could extend our contracts for whatever amount of time they are closed down.I see this as much longer than 2-3 weeks probably more like 2-3 months.Say you own OKW or BWV and your contract ends 1/31/2042 they could extend it to say 3/31/2042 and make everyone happy.


Sincerely, how would that help?   The lost points will still be lost.   An extension will not change that at all, and I doubt that a short extension is not going to increase the value of those contracts at all for those who will be selling before expiration.


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## Cyberc1978

CarolMN said:


> Sincerely, how would that help?   The lost points will still be lost.   An extension will not change that at all, and I doubt that a short extension is not going to increase the value of those contracts at all for those who will be selling before expiration.


I agree, also by extending contracts beyond the 1/31 will mean owners of a February use year will have points available for that UY. So that’s not gonna happen.


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## Deb & Bill

rkstocke5609 said:


> EVERYONE, DVC owner or not will be directly or indirectly impacted by this situation.  While it isn’t good, lost points are just part of the risk of the vacation club / timeshare system we are owners of.  I actually really feel sad for David’s and other rental brokers.  This could potentially destroy these businesses and likely really hurt the rental market moving forward.  Ultimately really diminish the value of DVC resales too.  I am sure many bought in with the expectation of a vibrant rental market — if that is crippled, DVC resale values would likely fall as well..


When Hurricane Irma hit SW Florida in 2017, my timeshare on Marco Island refunded my annual fees in the form of a credit for the next year since our week vacation was scheduled during the time the resort was shut down.  We had just moved to Marco Island and hadn't sold our week yet.  So DVC could credit annual feels for 2021 if they wanted to make owners good for their loss if they had a reservation during that time and were unable to use the points. If they can bank or reschedule, they wouldn't get a fee credit.   Now my one little 80 unit timeshare that lost seven weeks of guests might have had an easier time crediting their owners than DVC will with all their thousands of owners who couldn't use their points.


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## starry_solo

Is there actually travel insurance that covers everything?


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## Lperd

Most travel insurance policies don’t cover pandemics even if you get the cancel for any reason cover


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## CarolynFH

Deb & Bill said:


> When Hurricane Irma hit SW Florida in 2017, my timeshare on Marco Island refunded my annual fees in the form of a credit for the next year since our week vacation was scheduled during the time the resort was shut down.  We had just moved to Marco Island and hadn't sold our week yet.  So DVC could credit annual feels for 2021 if they wanted to make owners good for their loss if they had a reservation during that time and were unable to use the points. If they can bank or reschedule, they wouldn't get a fee credit.   Now my one little 80 unit timeshare that lost seven weeks of guests might have had an easier time crediting their owners than DVC will with all their thousands of owners who couldn't use their points.


That’s a very interesting thought! Hopefully someone at DVC will see your post and set that idea aside to be studied once all this is over.


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## CarolMN

CarolynFH said:


> That’s a very interesting thought! Hopefully someone at DVC will see your post and set that idea aside to be studied once all this is over.


Another interesting fact relating to hurricane IRMA that I read about on another board:  

It's been reported that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.


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## CarolynFH

CarolMN said:


> Another interesting fact relating to hurricane IRMA that I read about on another board:
> 
> It's been reported that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.


Good to know!


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## heynowirv

CarolMN said:


> Sincerely, how would that help?   The lost points will still be lost.   An extension will not change that at all, and I doubt that a short extension is not going to increase the value of those contracts at all for those who will be selling before expiration.


Sincerely Carol,
     My thought wasn't about increasing value for resale but more about more time to use points that may be left over. Probably not practical but a thought just the same.
Irv.


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## heynowirv

CarolMN said:


> Another interesting fact relating to hurricane IRMA that I read about on another board:
> 
> It's been reported that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.


Good to have something to compare it to.


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## TheWheel

CarolMN said:


> Another interesting fact relating to hurricane IRMA that I read about on another board:
> 
> It's been reported that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.



The difference here is that the owner (or owners agent) closed the resort not the renters decided / could not attend due to weather.


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## heynowirv

TheWheel said:


> The difference here is that the owner (or owners agent) closed the resort not the renters decided / could not attend due to weather.


Read the whole post from Bill&Deb the resort was shut down.


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## Cyberc1978

Lperd said:


> Most travel insurance policies don’t cover pandemics even if you get the cancel for any reason cover



If that it the case then IMO it ultimately falls back on the renter as the owner have no control over a virus nor the weather. 

I just looked at the travel insurance from "Worldwide Trip Protector Plus" and they include CFAR and they dont have any exclusions about pandemics or similar.


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## Lewisc

Cyberc1978 said:


> If that it the case then IMO it ultimately falls back on the renter as the owner have no control over a virus nor the weather.
> 
> I just looked at the travel insurance from "Worldwide Trip Protector Plus" and they include CFAR and they dont have any exclusions about pandemics or similar.


Cancel for Any reason policies would, by definition, let you cancel for reasons not covered by most policies.  I haven't read anything which suggests a pandemic being an exception.

I buy a used car from you, private sale.  I give you a non-refundable deposit.  I show up the next day with the balance in cash.  Overnight a storm resulted in a downed tree totaling your car.  Is there any doubt I'm entitled to a refund?  Of course I'm assuming you didn't transfer title to me.

As a practical matter.  I don't think any of the DVC brokers have deep pockets, not owned by a large company.  I doubt they have the money available to handle months of refunds.  Dave's is in Canada.  Disney World is in Florida.  The owner and renter might be in different states, maybe different countries.  I suspect brokers will be bankrupt before this ever gets  sorted out.  Good luck locating the owner and suing him.  When the dust settles at least some of the renters will have rented from brokers which wind up out of business.

Assuming a broker has large, but not unlimited, resources a refund of the 30% owner hold back and most of the fees charged should be enough to give the renter half of his money back.  I doubt most of the brokers have enough resources but it's a thought.


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## Cyberc1978

Lewisc said:


> Cancel for Any reason policies would, by definition, let you cancel for reasons not covered by most policies.  I haven't read anything which suggests a pandemic being an exception.
> 
> I buy a used car from you, private sale.  I give you a non-refundable deposit.  I show up the next day with the balance in cash.  Overnight a storm resulted in a downed tree totaling your car.  Is there any doubt I'm entitled to a refund?  Of course I'm assuming you didn't transfer title to me.



I've read other places here on DIS that there should have been a court ruling in FL where a hurricane hit a resort and the renter wasn't able to checkin. The court ruled in favor of the owner as the hurricane was out of his control and furthermore the renter should have gotten a Travelers insurance  to ensure coverage.

I have no reason to believe that this shouldn't be the case as we are speaking of a force Majeure situation. In that situation not the renter nor the owner is to blame and both get caught in the middle.


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## rkstocke5609

All of which is why the Rental market will take a huge hit.  Would you gamble after this?  If I was going to consider renting points after this it would probably have to be $6/point (no more than whatever maintenance fees are).


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## TCRAIG

KingRichard said:


> This were we are at with our renters. Rental middle of May and my points expire on the 31st.


Same here - banked and borrowed points From a June contract for an April rental - I’ll do what I can...


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## Marionnette

rkstocke5609 said:


> All of which is why the Rental market will take a huge hit.  Would you gamble after this?  If I was going to consider renting points after this it would probably have to be $6/point (no more than whatever maintenance fees are).


No owner is going to rent thru a broker that charges $6/pt (or whatever maintenance fees are) because the broker is going to take a piece of that.

But I do agree that overall, the rental market is going to take a huge hit over this. Renters aren’t happy. Owners aren’t happy. Brokers are hearing it from both sides. They’re walking a fine line and the survival of their business depends on how they handle this.


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## rkstocke5609

Marionnette said:


> No owner is going to rent thru a broker that charges $6/pt (or whatever maintenance fees are) because the broker is going to take a piece of that.
> 
> But I do agree that overall, the rental market is going to take a huge hit over this. Renters aren’t happy. Owners aren’t happy. Brokers are hearing it from both sides. They’re walking a fine line and the survival of their business depends on how they handle this.


People will rent their points for whatever the market is willing to pay.  Or not at all.  And I just expect the market to dictate a very low price.


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## Marionnette

rkstocke5609 said:


> People will rent their points for whatever the market is willing to pay.  Or not at all.  And I just expect the market to dictate a very low price.


Most people aren’t going to rent their points at a loss. I know that I would give them away to friends, family or neighbors before renting to a stranger at those prices.


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## cvjw

rkstocke5609 said:


> People will rent their points for whatever the market is willing to pay.  Or not at all.  And I just expect the market to dictate a very low price.



Then most owners just wont rent their points. No way I would go thru all the risk of renting my points to complete strangers for $6 a point. I would take longer trips in larger villas or give the points away to family and friends first. Or, sell the contracts. Too much risk in renting - as we are seeing right now.


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## Sandisw

Cyberc1978 said:


> I've read other places here on DIS that there should have been a court ruling in FL where a hurricane hit a resort and the renter wasn't able to checkin. The court ruled in favor of the owner as the hurricane was out of his control and furthermore the renter should have gotten a Travelers insurance  to ensure coverage.
> 
> I have no reason to believe that this shouldn't be the case as we are speaking of a force Majeure situation. In that situation not the renter nor the owner is to blame and both get caught in the middle.



Do you think the fact that the owners contract says 30% is paid at check in plays a role in allowing the broker to keep that part?

Resort is closed, so no check in is happening.  Granted, thst wasn’t the intent, but I could see it being used in a more technical definition.


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## Grumpy by Birth

If the rental market dries up as a result of this, it would mean the potential for more points to be lost when people can't travel for whatever reason and have expiring points.

But the flip-side of that would potentially be improved availability of rooms.  The rental market has resulted in a lot of rooms being booked that would otherwise have been available.  

We'd all have increased risk of losing points if we can't personally use them before they expire, but increased availability might at least be a small silver lining.


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## rkstocke5609

I don’t dispute that most people wouldn’t rent their points if it goes that low.  And maybe, the bottom is maintenance fee costs + broker fee.  At that level it isn’t a “loss” .  Who knows, I just think there’s trouble ahead for the rental market and it could likely effect resale values too.


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## Marionnette

rkstocke5609 said:


> I don’t dispute that most people wouldn’t rent their points if it goes that low.  And maybe, the bottom is maintenance fee costs + broker fee.  At that level it isn’t a “loss” .  Who knows, I just think there’s trouble ahead for the rental market and it could likely effect resale values too.


Maintenance fees + broker fees is still a loss for the owner. I didn’t purchase those points with my dazzling smile. The contract itself cost money, not to mention the opportunity cost of spending the money on the contract instead of investing it. Owners weren’t making money when they used a broker. They were breaking even.


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## rkstocke5609

Marionnette said:


> Maintenance fees + broker fees is still a loss for the owner. I didn’t purchase those points with my dazzling smile. The contract itself cost money, not to mention the opportunity cost of spending the money on the contract instead of investing it. Owners weren’t making money when they used a broker. They were breaking even.


Oh, I see.  We look at it differently.  I purchased my contract with the expectation that I would use it and that the cost was an expense on future vacations which I just considered a one time choice.  So, when I think of break even I’m strictly thinking of the carrying costs of one year which is the maintenance fees.  So, in your model I need to take my $16,800 and divide by 27 years to expiration of contract.  So, rounded off that’s $623 per year.  Now, $623 / 210 points is $2.97 / point.  So, let’s say MF’s are $8, plus contract cost of $3, plus broker fee would equal my break even point .   I look at my contract cost as 3 trips that I would have paid for that I bought DVC with instead and as such I consider it “spent”.  That’s why my break even is MF’s + Broker fees.

I do see your perspective, just isn’t mine.


----------



## poofyo101

I doubt the rental market is going to change. People love disney. People want to save money.
What is going to change is the brokers market will change. Less brokers, and less people who trust brokers. 
To me it has always been better and safer to find a good owner to rent from then a broker.


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## Sandisw

poofyo101 said:


> I doubt the rental market is going to change. People love disney. People want to save money.
> What is going to change is the brokers market will change. Less brokers, and less people who trust brokers.
> To me it has always been better and safer to find a good owner to rent from then a broker.



Are you saying though that with the resort closed, a renter should still be stuck?

Thats the piece that is going to impact the rental market, unless private owners are issuing refunds.


----------



## poofyo101

Sandisw said:


> Are you saying though that with the resort closed, a renter should still be stuck?
> 
> Thats the piece that is going to impact the rental market, unless private owners are issuing refunds.



It just depends on the situation. I had a rental for late April and I advised them to move it. I told them going into it once this all started the point expiration date on it wasn't until early 2021 so I would help them move anytime in that window to any room they wanted. However I also told them the longer they waited to change the reservation the less likely they would have availability elsewhere. So we ultimately decided to move it to the fall. As we did not have a middleman its much easier to talk it through and come up with a few plans that work best.

I am not saying renters should get their money back with expiring points and putting it all on the owners either. Each situation is different but both parties should do the best to accommodate one another in a difficult time period. 

Before being an owner I tried to use the brokers and just seemed like it was not as easy or as effective then just booking directly with the owner. I still feel the same today. The communication lag trying to talk through a middleman is very frustrating at times. 

I know I would not be a happy owner however if I rented through davids expecting X amount of payment and them asking me to pay it back if points were expiring. To me that still has to fall onto the shoulders of the broker if the reservation cannot be moved/points will expire as that is the risk the broker made in running their business the way they do. just my opinion though.


----------



## Sandisw

poofyo101 said:


> It just depends on the situation. I had a rental for late April and I advised them to move it. I told them going into it once this all started the point expiration date on it wasn't until early 2021 so I would help them move anytime in that window to any room they wanted. However I also told them the longer they waited to change the reservation the less likely they would have availability elsewhere. So we ultimately decided to move it to the fall. As we did not have a middleman its much easier to talk it through and come up with a few plans that work best.
> 
> I am not saying renters should get their money back with expiring points and putting it all on the owners either. Each situation is different but both parties should do the best to accommodate one another in a difficult time period.
> 
> Before being an owner I tried to use the brokers and just seemed like it was not as easy or as effective then just booking directly with the owner. I still feel the same today. The communication lag trying to talk through a middleman is very frustrating at times.
> 
> I know I would not be a happy owner however if I rented through davids expecting X amount of payment and them asking me to pay it back if points were expiring. To me that still has to fall onto the shoulders of the broker if the reservation cannot be moved/points will expire as that is the risk the broker made in running their business the way they do. just my opinion though.



I definitely agree this will impact the brokers but I also believe that many renters would not be expected to understand that no refunds applies even if the resort closed. Yes, it’s no ones fault, but in Most other cases, if you buy something non refundable and it’s not delivered to you, a refund is processed.

That’s why I think it will impact rentals all around, including the price because I know I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone unless the get CFAR insurance. Once you do that, it may not be a huge saving over cash bookings...and Just not worth the risk.


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## Kaufeegurl

The DVC rental market will take a huge hit if the premium to stay at a deluxe resort falls within an acceptable range for a renter to book a risk free stay through Disney. And I foresee that happening for a hot minute. But the cruise lines will bounce back and so will DVC rentals (albeit with new contract wording) as people have very short memories.


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## Kaufeegurl

I personally don't rent points very often but going forward, if I need to rent points, the reservation will be only with current years points, before the banking window OR within 2 months of the start of my use year so that there is an opportunity to bank or rebook a cancelled reservation due to a crisis such as the one we are experiencing.


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## CarolMN

poofyo101 said:


> I doubt the rental market is going to change. People love disney. People want to save money.
> What is going to change is the brokers market will change. Less brokers, and less people who trust brokers.
> To me it has always been better and safer to find a good owner to rent from then a broker.


I think what is going to change  - at least in the short term, is the number of people who will be able to afford a Disney vacation.   For example, just this morning, I read that in Minnesota,  over 50,000 have applied for unemployment insurance.  Last year at this time, the number was 2,000.     Even a few weeks of no or reduced pay will make a big difference to a whole lot of people.   It will take time for people to recover.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/20/the...-be-unlike-anything-the-us-has-ever-seen.html
We also need to consider that the rental prices are closely related to Disney Hotel cash prices.   If Disney has to offer discounted stays to get people back, that will certainly depress rental prices.   And it's anybody's guess how much the rental prices will have to decline to get people to forget the losses associated with the COVID-19 resort closures and accedpt "non-refundable" reservations again.


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## _auroraborealis_

I have to agree this is temporary. And people are still going to take the risk for the most popular and expensive resorts.


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## poofyo101

CarolMN said:


> I think what is going to change  - at least in the short term, is the number of people who will be able to afford a Disney vacation.   For example, just this morning, I read that in Minnesota,  over 50,000 have applied for unemployment insurance.  Last year at this time, the number was 2,000.     Even a few weeks of no or reduced pay will make a big difference to a whole lot of people.   It will take time for people to recover.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/20/the...-be-unlike-anything-the-us-has-ever-seen.html
> We also need to consider that the rental prices are closely related to Disney Hotel cash prices.   If Disney has to offer discounted stays to get people back, that will certainly depress rental prices.   And it's anybody's guess how much the rental prices will have to decline to get people to forget the losses associated with the COVID-19 resort closures and accedpt "non-refundable" reservations again.


I agree with both those statements


----------



## heynowirv

CarolMN said:


> I think what is going to change  - at least in the short term, is the number of people who will be able to afford a Disney vacation.   For example, just this morning, I read that in Minnesota,  over 50,000 have applied for unemployment insurance.  Last year at this time, the number was 2,000.     Even a few weeks of no or reduced pay will make a big difference to a whole lot of people.   It will take time for people to recover.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/20/the...-be-unlike-anything-the-us-has-ever-seen.html
> We also need to consider that the rental prices are closely related to Disney Hotel cash prices.   If Disney has to offer discounted stays to get people back, that will certainly depress rental prices.   And it's anybody's guess how much the rental prices will have to decline to get people to forget the losses associated with the COVID-19 resort closures and accedpt "non-refundable" reservations again.


100,000 applied in Pa as per the reports this morning.


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## Lewisc

Sandisw said:


> I definitely agree this will impact the brokers but I also believe that many renters would not be expected to understand that no refunds applies even if the resort closed. Yes, it’s no ones fault, but in Most other cases, if you buy something non refundable and it’s not delivered to you, a refund is processed.
> 
> That’s why I think it will impact rentals all around, including the price because I know I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone unless the get CFAR insurance. Once you do that, it may not be a huge saving over cash bookings...and Just not worth the risk.


I think you have it reversed.  Members "owners" posting in this threat don't understand their contract isn't valid, is voided, if the resorts are all closed.  We're not talking about a guest being moved from GFV to OKW.  We're not talking about a guest who doesn't want to travel or who can't get off work.  We're talking aout a guest who paid for a resort stay which is unavailable. Some are suggesting an agreement which basically says if for any reason DVC resorts are closed all payments made by  the renter are considered to be a gift.  I question if that agreement would even be legal. 

Once the resorts open many renters, JMO, won't have the $$ available, or time off from work, to take their planned vacation.  I don't know how brokers will operate.  A kind owner might offer a partial refund if the points can be re-rented.  Win-Win  the member makes additional money and the renter gets some money back.  I see both sides.

The contract says non-refundable.  It also lists my dates and accommodations.  You have the choice, convince Disney to open the resort or refund the renter.


----------



## CraigInPA

Lewisc said:


> I think you have it reversed.  Members "owners" posting in this threat don't understand their contract isn't valid, is voided, if the resorts are all closed.  We're not talking about a guest being moved from GFV to OKW.  We're not talking about a guest who doesn't want to travel or who can't get off work.  We're talking aout a guest who paid for a resort stay which is unavailable. Some are suggesting an agreement which basically says if for any reason DVC resorts are closed all payments made by  the renter are considered to be a gift.  I question if that agreement would even be legal.
> 
> Once the resorts open many renters, JMO, won't have the $$ available, or time off from work, to take their planned vacation.  I don't know how brokers will operate.  A kind owner might offer a partial refund if the points can be re-rented.  Win-Win  the member makes additional money and the renter gets some money back.  I see both sides.
> 
> The contract says non-refundable.  It also lists my dates and accommodations.  You have the choice, convince Disney to open the resort or refund the renter.



There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens. 

When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).

The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.

The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party. 

One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat. 

But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book. 

I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.


----------



## lauraleh

Lewisc said:


> I think you have it reversed.  Members "owners" posting in this threat don't understand their contract isn't valid, is voided, if the resorts are all closed.  We're not talking about a guest being moved from GFV to OKW.  We're not talking about a guest who doesn't want to travel or who can't get off work.  We're talking aout a guest who paid for a resort stay which is unavailable. Some are suggesting an agreement which basically says if for any reason DVC resorts are closed all payments made by  the renter are considered to be a gift.  I question if that agreement would even be legal.
> 
> Once the resorts open many renters, JMO, won't have the $$ available, or time off from work, to take their planned vacation.  I don't know how brokers will operate.  A kind owner might offer a partial refund if the points can be re-rented.  Win-Win  the member makes additional money and the renter gets some money back.  I see both sides.
> 
> The contract says non-refundable.  It also lists my dates and accommodations.  You have the choice, convince Disney to open the resort or refund the renter.



I haven't waded into this conversation yet because it's obviously very owner heavy board but OMG this!  

I am a renter.  I paid for a hotel stay.  You can't provide that hotel stay? I get my money back.  I'm not involved with the logistics of when your points expire.


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## Mainsail Minnie

CraigInPA said:


> There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.


Um, not really. I do my job under a contract. If I don't work, though, I won't get paid, regardless of the fact that the contract states that my employer will pay me. That's because my part of the contracted deal (working) is not being upheld, so that would release my empolyer from its part of the deal (paying me). Same principle applies here.


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## _auroraborealis_

lauraleh said:


> I am a renter.  I paid for a hotel stay.  You can't provide that hotel stay? I get my money back.  I'm not involved with the logistics of when your points expire.


You paid for a timeshare stay. Changes a lot about it. PayPal protection applies on hotels. Not timeshares. Even your credit card terms vary.

The contract says no refunds.


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## Beachmom0317

lauraleh said:


> I haven't waded into this conversation yet because it's obviously very owner heavy board but OMG this!
> 
> I am a renter.  I paid for a hotel stay.  You can't provide that hotel stay? I get my money back.  I'm not involved with the logistics of when your points expire.


Respectfully, I think that’s where the confusion lies. It is not a hotel reservation where you can simply cancel within the cancellation window, take refund and reschedule. Renting timeshare points, DVC in particular, means you are involved with the circumstances, such as renting points close to expiring, banked points that can’t be moved forward legally, or the limited availability when trying to rebook. It’s two different things. I get the frustration. It sucks for both sides in certain scenarios.


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## CraigInPA

Mainsail Minnie said:


> Um, not really. I do my job under a contract. If I don't work, though, I won't get paid, regardless of the fact that the contract states that my employer will pay me. That's because my part of the contracted deal (working) is not being upheld, so that would release my empolyer from its part of the deal (paying me). Same principle applies here.



Not even close. You willfully chose not to work. 

A better analogy is where you are the owner of a building and you hire a contractor to install a kitchen. The contractor buys the cabinets and puts them in the building. Before they could be installed, the building burns down. At this point, it is impossible to install any kitchen because the building is gone. Regardless of the fact that the cabinets the contractor brought in were destroyed, you, as the owner of the building, say that you aren't going to pay the contractor anything because he didn't complete the contract to install the whole kitchen? That, in a nutshell, is your argument. 

Now, let's expand that analogy a bit... Let's say that only half of the custom order was delivered before the fire, but cancelling the rest of the order is impossible. It's possible, but unlikely, the contractor will ever be able to use those cabinets, so he sells them at a significant loss. Now, it's clear that the cabinets destroyed in the fire should be paid for by you, the building owner. But, what about the cabinets not destroyed? Do you have to pay for them, subject to a credit for whatever the contractor got for them? Or, do you not have to pay for them at all, since they didn't get to the job site? Or, do you have to pay full price for them, because they were ordered for your job? 

This is why a Force Majeure clause is important in a contract. That clause would dictate what happens when an event caused by neither party occurs that would prevent, curtail, or change the contract.


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## Nennie

David's seems to be a great company, and they are trying to do the right thing for both the owners and the renters.  Hopefully the owners without expiring points will outweigh those with expiring points, and David's can make up the difference.  I would hate to see this company be forced out of business.

With regard to the contract terms, and whether the owner or the renter is on the hook, since points have a limited shelf life and the points were GOOD at the time of the rental, I don't think the owner should have to return the funds (but does have to rebook if the points didn't expire).

My analogy is that I receive a $100 gift certificate for a local restaurant that expires 12/31/20.  I don't like the restaurant and I sell the gift certificate to someone for $80.  The buyer makes a reservation for 8/1/20.  On 7/31/20, the restaurant goes out of business and closes.  The buyer can't come back to me for a refund, b/c the GC was good when I sold it, and it's not my fault that they waited to use it, and certainly isn't my fault that the restaurant went out of business.  It isn't the buyers fault either of course, but they buyer is the own left with a worthless GC in this scenario.

DVC owners could have sold those points to someone with a Feb 2020 reservation, or used the points themselves.  It's a tragic situation all around, but in the case of expiring points, the owner should not have to refund.

I hope that David's can either reach into its own pocket (or perhaps has insurance???) that can cover the renters in the cases of expiring points.  Fingers crossed for everyone involved!


----------



## MICKIMINI

CraigInPA said:


> There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.
> 
> When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).
> 
> The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.
> 
> The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party.
> 
> One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat.
> 
> But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book.
> 
> I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.


I believe your statement is the most articulate and accurate I have read on disboards…  Thank you.


----------



## foreUT

CraigInPA said:


> There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.
> 
> When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).
> 
> The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.
> 
> The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party.
> 
> One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat.
> 
> But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book.
> 
> I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.


Your statement that "the broker is the one responsible" appears to be at the crux of the issue. Not sure how many years this particular broker has been in business, but I believe it's a decade or more. Every business whose major job is to act as the money pipeline for a transaction between two parties should be cognizant and prepared for the possibility, no matter how remote, that catastrophic events do occur. It's an easy route to follow that the guy who originally got the money becomes the guy expected to pay. Vacation rental companies mitigate their chargeback losses by channeling the cc payments directly to the Owner. In chargebacks, VRBO might lose their Service Fees, but the home-rental monies come directly from the home-owner bank accounts (where they were originally deposited by the credit card companies.) David's didn't use this business plan. It might have been difficult to do so w a timeshare, but the downsides of taking all the money are enormous. I'm very surprised that a contingency plan wasn't in effect and plans made to immediately address issues resulting from  DVC closures.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Nennie said:


> David's seems to be a great company, and they are trying to do the right thing for both the owners and the renters.  Hopefully the owners without expiring points will outweigh those with expiring points, and David's can make up the difference.  I would hate to see this company be forced out of business....



I think the brokers are trying to do the best for them first.  They could return the 30% they held from the owner and their percentage and call it good.  I don't think the future is looking good for any of the brokers or renting points for that matter.  There is very little action on the point rental sites.

But if the point owners can make another reservation before the points expire for the non-owners, that will be the best.  But if the reservation costs more the owner should be reimbursed for that extra cost.  The non-owners might not be able to get the resort or size villa they had before since they are looking at summer and fall.


----------



## Kaufeegurl

Deb & Bill said:


> I don't think the future is looking good for any of the brokers or renting points for that matter.  There is very little action on the point rental sites.


Only time will tell. I think the market for DVC rentals may be depressed for the short term as this crisis will impact many Americans (and internationally) financially. Discretionary spending on Disney vacations will evaporate and Disney may have to reduce resort pricing - reducing the premium of a deluxe stay through Disney nearer to the cost to rent DVC. In the longer term, things will bounce back (including cruising) as people have short memories and time softens and blurs the impact. Renters will still want to rent DVC for the substantial price savings, owners will still want/need to rent points, but I am quite sure there will be new contract wording in place spelling out exactly what will happen should this scenario happen again.


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

Deb & Bill said:


> I don't think the future is looking good for any of the brokers or renting points for that matter.



I completely agree with you on this.  I think it will be hard for either side (renter or dvc owner) to really trust that going forward their interests are 100% protected in these transactions.  

Many renters did everything right, bought insurance, and still lost some or all their vacation monies.  

Many owners also did everything right.  They supplied the points, made the reservations, added dining plan MDE etc.  In these unprecedented times, many owners have been accommodating...allowing for changes or even refunding some/all their rental income.  While the owners have seemed to come out of this better than renters,  depending how long this goes I'm guessing that owners could be taking some hits (unpaid 30% or being left with unusable, expiring points).

Going forward, I'd be extremely hesitant to participate on either side of this transaction in the current form.  As a renter I'd now never pay 100% upfront and have a chance, at no fault of my own, to lose 100% of the funds.  As an owner I'd be hard pressed to rent my points knowing I could, at the last second, be asked to refund some/all the rental income and be left with worthless/expiring points.  The only way to really give either side more protection is to take it away from the other.  David's could keep more money in escrow for the renter in case of the reservation not being available but that gives the owner less money/protection up front.  Davids could go the other way and give the owner more than 70% upfront, but that obviously means the renter is even less likely to get relief if issues come up.  

I agree with the poster above, and many others with the same sentiment, that the rental agencies must spell out to the letter what happens in a futures case like this.  That way at least everyone going in knows what they are entitled to in all cases and can decide if the transaction is worth the risks.


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## MICKIMINI

My guess is there will not be many of us owners renting in the future regardless of rewritten agreements.  No owners means no points available to renters.  It seemed to work well until this crisis, but I know I'm just going to wait out the two I have in the pipeline and that's the end.  I'm honest and ethical (like most DVC members) and don't like to be put in a position where it seems I am not, through no fault of my own...just not going there again. 

From now on when the parks reopen renters will have to deal with low levels of points available due to scared owners which "may" increase prices despite what is being said on these threads.  It is still a supply and demand economy and is yet to be seen how DVC rentals survive.  Be well.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

MICKIMINI said:


> My guess is there will not be many of us owners renting in the future regardless of rewritten agreements.  No owners means no points available to renters.  It seemed to work well until this crisis, but I know I'm just going to wait out the two I have in the pipeline and that's the end.  I'm honest and ethical (like most DVC members) and don't like to be put in a position where it seems I am not, through no fault of my own...just not going there again.
> 
> From now on when the parks reopen renters will have to deal with low levels of points available due to scared owners which "may" increase prices despite what is being said on these threads.  It is still a supply and demand economy and is yet to be seen how DVC rentals survive.  Be well.



Yeah, everything you said makes sense and is likely accurate from most owners POV, and then from my POV, a renter, the ever shrinking savings of renting points just does not seem worth it anymore when this brand new risk has now revealed itself as a real possibility. It will forever be in the back of my mind. And all that is ignoring the IMO likely scenario of true room rates (the post discount rates) coming down.

Doesn’t look good for the rental industry when there’s a good chance demand decreases on both sides.


----------



## Matty B13

If you save 50% over the rack rate at a Disney Hotel by renting DVC points, it would only take one trip to recover the cost if you had booked a cash reservation, and lost your funds this time.  So after your second rental you would be saving money again.

Also, most of the larger units, 1 bedroom & 2 bedroom units at DVC resorts are much cheaper to rent than paying cash for large suites at Disney Hotels.  I think the bargain hunters  will be out again after this crisis, but might add in Insurance that covers these things to the cost.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Matty B13 said:


> If you save 50% over the rack rate at a Disney Hotel by renting DVC points, it would only take one trip to recover the cost if you had booked a cash reservation, and lost your funds this time.  So after your second rental you would be saving money again.
> 
> Also, most of the larger units, 1 bedroom & 2 bedroom units at DVC resorts are much cheaper to rent than paying cash for large suites at Disney Hotels.  I think the bargain hunters  will be out again after this crisis, but might add in Insurance that covers these things to the cost.



I don’t know, I’m playing around on Disney’s site pricing out pretend trips (as one does when they can’t actually go lol) and found a 2 bedroom at Beach Club for about $600 more total for a 10 night stay than David’s. Approximately a $600 premium, or $60 a night, is more than worth it IMO for peace of mind, ease of change/cancellation, and actually being able to secure the room (not sitting on a wait list that may never come through). The point rental savings on a Poly studio for that same time frame (just picking what I see available) were larger, closer to $120 a night. I’m not comparing to rack rate, but to what one would actually pay with Disney.

Definitely depends on the time of year, the resort you’re considering, room type, etc. The savings aren’t necessarily always that large even at this point before prices potentially drop.


----------



## MICKIMINI

Matty B13 said:


> If you save 50% over the rack rate at a Disney Hotel by renting DVC points, it would only take one trip to recover the cost if you had booked a cash reservation, and lost your funds this time.  So after your second rental you would be saving money again.
> 
> Also, most of the larger units, 1 bedroom & 2 bedroom units at DVC resorts are much cheaper to rent than paying cash for large suites at Disney Hotels.  I think the bargain hunters  will be out again after this crisis, but might add in Insurance that covers these things to the cost.



The studio renters may just go over to Moderates and have the option to cancel.  If I were in that price range, that's what I'd do.


----------



## bobbiwoz

I have rented three times, each was for a studio.  I think and hope that the studio availability will rise when rentals are fewer.


----------



## Sandisw

Matty B13 said:


> If you save 50% over the rack rate at a Disney Hotel by renting DVC points, it would only take one trip to recover the cost if you had booked a cash reservation, and lost your funds this time.  So after your second rental you would be saving money again.
> 
> Also, most of the larger units, 1 bedroom & 2 bedroom units at DVC resorts are much cheaper to rent than paying cash for large suites at Disney Hotels.  I think the bargain hunters  will be out again after this crisis, but might add in Insurance that covers these things to the cost.



That is one way to look at it, but when you have renters right now losing $2 to $3k, because even resort closure, does not cancel the contract, it’s a pretty big risk to accept.

Most renters are not regular WDW visitors.  I would be more often than not, they are people that go less often,

Since most rentals have not only non refund, but no changes, I am just not sure I see someone who just lost it all, going that route again,

And, with owners going above and beyond in this situation with even the changes, there are going to be more renters, who may be expecting that going forward, right or wrong, and shy away,

I know if I decide to rent in the future,..I’d build in a clause now as to what would happen in terms of how much of the rental would be refundable for resort closing.

IMO, if owners don’t offer renters some sort of safety net for that, it’s going to cut down on those wanting to risk.


----------



## Beachmom0317

MICKIMINI said:


> The studio renters may just go over to Moderates and have the option to cancel.  If I were in that price range, that's what I'd do.


That’s honestly what I’ll be doing sadly. We own a small contract at CCV and I’ve rented from other owners before when we’ve run out of points. Just can’t beat the cancellation policy with moderates and with this virus I just don’t even know if I wanna plan 11m in advance. Too many unknowns


----------



## Sandisw

Beachmom0317 said:


> That’s honestly what I’ll be doing sadly. We own a small contract at CCV and I’ve rented from other owners before when we’ve run out of points. Just can’t beat the cancellation policy with moderates and with this virus I just don’t even know if I wanna plan 11m in advance. Too many unknowns



I would venture to guess you won’t be alone. I just can’t believe too many that are not successful in getting money back will see it worth it,  Although I am hearing there have been some successful cases with CC chargebacks, it won’t help a renter who didn’t pay that way.

Like I said,  I see changes coming to a lot of contracts, especially the brokers


----------



## Nennie

Beachmom0317 said:


> That’s honestly what I’ll be doing sadly. We own a small contract at CCV and I’ve rented from other owners before when we’ve run out of points. Just can’t beat the cancellation policy with moderates and with this virus I just don’t even know if I wanna plan 11m in advance. Too many unknowns



If you need points in the future, instead of renting, I would do a transfer, so you are in complete control of the points.  These are definitely uncertain times!

I rented out points (through Davids) for a June reservation, but fortunately they are June 2020 points, so if my renter needs to cancel, I can just reschedule for another date.  I'm actually tempted to reach out to them (I have the email address) to give them reassurance that the points will still be good, but haven't done so b/c I'm concerned about giving them my personal info, etc.  I guess it's just wait and see for now!


----------



## MICKIMINI

Nennie said:


> If you need points in the future, instead of renting, I would do a transfer, so you are in complete control of the points.  These are definitely uncertain times!
> 
> I rented out points (through Davids) for a June reservation, but fortunately they are June 2020 points, so if my renter needs to cancel, I can just reschedule for another date.  I'm actually tempted to reach out to them (I have the email address) to give them reassurance that the points will still be good, but haven't done so b/c I'm concerned about giving them my personal info, etc.  I guess it's just wait and see for now!


I'm an owner and occasional renter through a broker and I'd be really cautious about reaching out to the renter at this point as you likely will be breaking your part of the contract.  At this point, all parties are well aware of what is going on.  As per your contract, let the broker do what you paid him to do.  It's great that the reservations falls within a time that gives you flexibility.  If all else fails, well, it's the wild west and you can make a decision at that point.  Yes, transfers will be the safety net.


----------



## Beachmom0317

Nennie said:


> If you need points in the future, instead of renting, I would do a transfer, so you are in complete control of the points.  These are definitely uncertain times!
> 
> I rented out points (through Davids) for a June reservation, but fortunately they are June 2020 points, so if my renter needs to cancel, I can just reschedule for another date.  I'm actually tempted to reach out to them (I have the email address) to give them reassurance that the points will still be good, but haven't done so b/c I'm concerned about giving them my personal info, etc.  I guess it's just wait and see for now!



True! I do love being able to be in control. The problem is you are still on the hook for the points you paid for. I guess I’d have to make sure the points I buy for transfer are in the beginning of their UY so if I needed to cancel I can do so before the banking deadline. Another problem for me is I read you can only book with transferred points on the phone at 9am with member services? I book studios at CCV our home resort and we usually need to log on right at 8am. So many factors come into play! May just need more points ;-)


----------



## Miffy

Sandisw said:


> Since most rentals have not only non refund, but no changes, I am just not sure I see *someone who just lost it all*, going that route again,
> . . .
> IMO, if owners don’t offer renters some sort of safety net for that, it’s going to cut down on those wanting to risk.


Someone who just lost it all is never going to rent again, however, someone who isn't reading this thread, has never rented points before, and doesn't take the current situation into consideration before making their plans, is going to rent, assuming there're rentals to be had.

I say this because before this happened people were renting and they didn't care about the restrictions. Whenever I ran into a post where people were urging the OP to rent points instead of whatever their other presented options were, I always posted to let the OP know all the downsides of renting--that they'd have to pay in full upfront (in most cases) and that it was somewhere between highly unlikely and impossible that if something--anything--happened they'd be able to change or cancel the reservation, etc.

No one cared. I would then point out that I've had to change or cancel WDW reservations in the past for totally unforeseen reasons and that with renting points they could be screwed, but no one still cared. People saw the opportunity for a bargain and were convinced that no ordinary life event (like the weather or illness) would happen to them and plowed right ahead. For sure no one, including me, could've predicted the coronavirus situation.

The current situation has created a lot of difficulties for both owners and renters and I am sympathetic to both sides. That being said, renters were not unaware that they'd paid a nonrefundable amount for something that they themselves, even without the coronavirus, might not have been able to use.

Will anyone think this hard about this maybe two years from now? I doubt it. Not just because people's memories are short but because people want to do what they want to do and think X, Y, or Z is never going to happen to them. Or happen again. And they don't mind the risk because they don't feel like there is one. Kind of like all the people out on California beaches this past weekend.


----------



## Sandisw

Miffy said:


> Someone who just lost it all is never going to rent again, however, someone who isn't reading this thread, has never rented points before, and doesn't take the current situation into consideration before making their plans, is going to rent, assuming there're rentals to be had.
> 
> I say this because before this happened people were renting and they didn't care about the restrictions. Whenever I ran into a post where people were urging the OP to rent points instead of whatever their other presented options were, I always posted to let the OP know all the downsides of renting--that they'd have to pay in full upfront (in most cases) and that it was somewhere between highly unlikely and impossible that if something--anything--happened they'd be able to change or cancel the reservation, etc.
> 
> No one cared. I would then point out that I've had to change or cancel WDW reservations in the past for totally unforeseen reasons and that with renting points they could be screwed, but no one still cared. People saw the opportunity for a bargain and were convinced that no ordinary life event (like the weather or illness) would happen to them and plowed right ahead. For sure no one, including me, could've predicted the coronavirus situation.
> 
> The current situation has created a lot of difficulties for both owners and renters and I am sympathetic to both sides. That being said, renters were not unaware that they'd paid a nonrefundable amount for something that they themselves, even without the coronavirus, might not have been able to use.
> 
> Will anyone think this hard about this maybe two years from now? I doubt it. Not just because people's memories are short but because people want to do what they want to do and think X, Y, or Z is never going to happen to them. Or happen again. And they don't mind the risk because they don't feel like there is one. Kind of like all the people out on California beaches this past weekend.



Very true, but I am going to venture to guess is that rental agreements will change to say that even a resort closure would not require a refund,

And, I think the forums here will have more negative comments than before,  With CC chargebacks happening, it may be difficult for brokers as well,


----------



## Miffy

Sandisw said:


> Very true, but I am going to venture to guess is that rental agreements will change to say that even a resort closure would not require a refund,
> 
> And, I think the forums here will have more negative comments than before,  With CC chargebacks happening, it may be difficult for brokers as well,


Yes, @Sandisw. Agreed. And also, while I'm here, I appreciate all your informative posts. Thank you!


----------



## TCRAIG

I have 3 outstanding rentals with David’s.  One is for April with June points.  I will refund the renter for points that Disney gives back to me.   So, if they go back to restoring banked/borrowed - I’ll reschedule or refund the full 93 points (less the 30% David’s held back) - if I can’t get banked/borrowed points from DVC - (66 points), I’ll expect David’s to refund the 30% back to the renter and I’ll kick in enough to cover the current points I’ll get back and call it a day.  My other 2 rentals are May with April points - so I will offer to reschedule or refund all of those points (less the 30% David’s still has if refund requested).


----------



## RNicole1

We are renters that have a May 23-30 reservation. This is our first time to rent, I am a teacher, and we have saved for 4 years to go on this trip with our kids. If Disney continues to stay closed during our trip, our trip insurance will not cover it. I’ve already looked into our policy and it does not cover a pandemic. I can only hope and pray that the owner is willing to work with us. If not, I will certainly never risk renting again and just book through Disney directly. I will also make it a point to let everyone I know not to rent as well. If it comes to it, I will follow through by trying to get a charge back with my credit card.

When booking, I fully accepted the no cancellations. However, this is in no fault of my own and I shouldn’t lose my hard earned money for nothing.


----------



## Minniesgal

rkstocke5609 said:


> All of which is why the Rental market will take a huge hit.  Would you gamble after this?  If I was going to consider renting points after this it would probably have to be $6/point (no more than whatever maintenance fees are).



People generally have short memories


----------



## Krandor

CraigInPA said:


> There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.
> 
> When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).
> 
> The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.
> 
> The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party.
> 
> One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat.
> 
> But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book.
> 
> I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.



Exactly.  Very well said.  A lot of comments in this thread are owner vs renter assuming the contract is between the owner and the renter.  If going through a broker it isn't. The contracts are with the broker not each other.


----------



## Angeliki19

This thread has been great- I have been looking for something like this.  I am a renter with an early May trip.  As with others, have trip insurance but doesn't cover epidemic.  I understood my contract to be fully non-refundable for any reason, so I am not expecting anything at this point.  I was more just looking for information on how the point process works on the owner side to get a sense of likelihood of whether or not the trip can be rebooked.  I know there are a lot of nuances with the points so it's complicated to say the least.  I am patiently waiting to hear from David's and see what, if any, our options are!

In the meantime, I have rebooked our trip at CBR for October just to have *something* for this year.  We have rented points or used family CM discounts to stay at DVC villas for the past 10 years, as the rack rate of those resorts is way out of our price range. However, this has made the moderates more attractive to me!  Especially with the recent upgrades to CBR... I paid $290 a night, rack rate, through Disney for October and I have to say, I am pretty excited about it.  

So as to whether I will rent again or not, it's hard to say.  I still have dreams of staying at the Poly and for me, renting is probably going to be my best bet.  Yes, I got burned this time, but if you total up all the money I saved over the years, I still feel like I came out ahead.  On the other hand, there is more flexibility booking with Disney and if we enjoy CBR as much as I think we will, it will be hard to justify the risk again.

Thanks again for everyone's insightful posts!  This is one of the better COVID-19 related discussions going on right now.


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## tallguy001

_auroraborealis_ said:


> You paid for a timeshare stay. Changes a lot about it. PayPal protection applies on hotels. Not timeshares. Even your credit card terms vary.
> 
> The contract says no refunds.



What the contract says is irrelevant because it is void.


----------



## disneypharm

RNicole1 said:


> We are renters that have a May 23-30 reservation. This is our first time to rent, I am a teacher, and we have saved for 4 years to go on this trip with our kids. If Disney continues to stay closed during our trip, our trip insurance will not cover it. I’ve already looked into our policy and it does not cover a pandemic. I can only hope and pray that the owner is willing to work with us. If not, I will certainly never risk renting again and just book through Disney directly. I will also make it a point to let everyone I know not to rent as well. If it comes to it, I will follow through by trying to get a charge back with my credit card.
> 
> When booking, I fully accepted the no cancellations. However, this is in no fault of my own and I shouldn’t lose my hard earned money for nothing.


I agree with everything you mentioned above.  We have been to WDW 5-6 times in the last 17 years but have always stayed in moderates and values.  We always had trip insurance and never needed to file a claim.  We have a split stay (2 contracts) for 10 days in early May that we rented 11 months ago. This is our first time renting and we are celebrating our 30th anniversary and my daughter's college graduation.  I have already lost thousands of dollars because my other's daughter's study abroad was cut short and her trip insurance didn't cover the expenses.  Now I am close to losing thousands more because of renting DVC.   Even if they are willing to reschedule or refund our money, I will not put ourselves in this situation again and make sure my family and friends are also aware that renting can be extremely risky  (added:  unless contracts are different or trip insurances start covering these situations).


----------



## LAX

RNicole1 said:


> We are renters that have a May 23-30 reservation. This is our first time to rent, I am a teacher, and we have saved for 4 years to go on this trip with our kids. If Disney continues to stay closed during our trip, our trip insurance will not cover it. I’ve already looked into our policy and it does not cover a pandemic. I can only hope and pray that the owner is willing to work with us. If not, I will certainly never risk renting again and just book through Disney directly. I will also make it a point to let everyone I know not to rent as well. If it comes to it, I will follow through by trying to get a charge back with my credit card.
> 
> *When booking, I fully accepted the no cancellations. However, this is in no fault of my own and I shouldn’t lose my hard earned money for nothing.*



Not directing these comments at you in particular, but in general. Someone stands to lose something because of this unfortunate pandemic. IF DVC does nothing to help owners with reservations during the closure, is it then fair for the owners to lose their hard earned money for nothing? When owners decided to rent out their points for a DVC reservation, those points were worth whatever the renters were willing to pay. The renters thus essentially became "owners" of those points. Had those points been used for a reservation outside of the closures (or these uncertain times), there would have been no issues. Hence, to imply that someone other than the renters is at fault is unfair to those parties, IMHO.

LAX


----------



## tellingson

RNicole1 said:


> We are renters that have a May 23-30 reservation. This is our first time to rent, I am a teacher, and we have saved for 4 years to go on this trip with our kids. If Disney continues to stay closed during our trip, our trip insurance will not cover it. I’ve already looked into our policy and it does not cover a pandemic. I can only hope and pray that the owner is willing to work with us. If not, I will certainly never risk renting again and just book through Disney directly. I will also make it a point to let everyone I know not to rent as well. If it comes to it, I will follow through by trying to get a charge back with my credit card.
> 
> When booking, I fully accepted the no cancellations. However, this is in no fault of my own and I shouldn’t lose my hard earned money for nothing.





disneypharm said:


> I agree with everything you mentioned above. We have been to WDW 5-6 times in the last 17 years but have always stayed in moderates and values. We always had trip insurance and never needed to file a claim. We have a split stay (2 contracts) for 10 days in early May that we rented 11 months ago. This is our first time renting and we are celebrating our 30th anniversary and my daughter's college graduation. I have already lost thousands of dollars because my other's daughter's study abroad was cut short and her trip insurance didn't cover the expenses.



Reading through this thread, I'm am struggling to understand the usefulness of trip insurance.  Seems like a way to make you feel good about the what-ifs but don't actually protect in any substantial way.


----------



## disneypharm

LAX said:


> Not directing these comments at you in particular, but in general. Someone stands to lose something because of this unfortunate pandemic. *IF DVC does nothing to help owners with reservations during the closure, is it then fair for the owners to lose their hard earned money for nothing?* When owners decided to rent out their points for a DVC reservation, those points were worth whatever the renters were willing to pay. The renters thus essentially became "owners" of those points. Had those points been used for a reservation outside of the closures (or these uncertain times), there would have been no issues. Hence, to imply that someone other than the renters is at fault is unfair to those parties, IMHO.
> 
> LAX


First of all, as a renter, I believe that this is completely my fault to be naive enough to feel that a trip insurance will cover me.  I consider myself a very cautious person with my money.  

If DVC does nothing to help owners, then it is on Disney.  Owners will be losing their hard earned money if they decided to refund the renter.  But I doubt it that Disney will not help the owners during this unfortunate pandemic.

If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner.  I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance.  If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again.  I wonder what that would do to the rental market.  I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.


----------



## Sandisw

tellingson said:


> Reading through this thread, I'm am struggling to understand the usefulness of trip insurance.  Seems like a way to make you feel good about the what-ifs but don't actually protect in any substantial way.



I think the recommendation of travel insurance would be for typical situations that would occur for a renter when they would be prevented from going,

This situation seems to be not covered, including many of the CFAR policies.

It’s why such an issues because none of the contracts addressed resort closing. Now that it looks like Orange County will force cancellations until at least April 8 - 10 th, it’s going to become worse for the broker with more renters claiming contracts are void and filing complaints through CC.


----------



## tellingson

disneypharm said:


> First of all, as a renter, I believe that this is completely my fault to be naive enough to feel that a trip insurance will cover me.  I consider myself a very cautious person with my money.
> 
> If DVC does nothing to help owners, then it is on Disney.  Owners will be losing their hard earned money if they decided to refund the renter.  But I doubt it that Disney will not help the owners during this unfortunate pandemic.
> 
> If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner.  I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance.  If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again.  I wonder what that would do to the rental market.  I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.



So, from the perspective of an owner that occasionally rents out points, there are likely 2 main reasons that owners rent out points.
1. Points are nearing expiration and owner isn't going to use them.
2. Would rather have the cash for something else.

With respect to #1, if the points are nearing expiration, the owners are likely more limited in what they can do. Availability is an issue with everyone else cancelling and rebooking for later dates. Also, since you are likely going through a broker, communication is going to take longer which makes availability even harder. Delays from when you send what is available to the renter, to the time you get a response back, may change availability. In this case, I would just have the 2 parties get on a phone call if rebooking is an option (depending on point expiration) and try to figure something out.

If the owner falls #2, (which is typically me), I would expect that the owner can rebook the member.  DVC is being pretty flexible with points right now for reservations in the March-Early April time frame as long as the owner puts forth some effort and the points aren't set to expire soon. 

My two cents. If the owner is able to rebook, I think they should make every effort to do so. But realize that they are renting the points for a reason, and depending on the reason, their hands may be tied.


----------



## tellingson

Sandisw said:


> I think the recommendation of travel insurance would be for typical situations that would occur for a renter when they would be prevented from going,
> 
> This situation seems to be not covered, including many of the CFAR policies.
> 
> It’s why such an issues because none of the contracts addressed resort closing. Now that it looks like Orange County will force cancellations until at least April 8 - 10 th, it’s going to become worse for the broker with more renters claiming contracts are void and filing complaints through CC.



Definitely going to be interesting. My next renters are in November, so I'm fairly confident that I won't have to change their reservation.


----------



## disneypharm

tellingson said:


> So, from the perspective of an owner that occasionally rents out points, there are likely 2 main reasons that owners rent out points.
> 1. Points are nearing expiration and owner isn't going to use them.
> 2. Would rather have the cash for something else.
> 
> With respect to #1, if the points are nearing expiration, the owners are likely more limited in what they can do. Availability is an issue with everyone else cancelling and rebooking for later dates. Also, since you are likely going through a broker, communication is going to take longer which makes availability even harder. Delays from when you send what is available to the renter, to the time you get a response back, may change availability. In this case, I would just have the 2 parties get on a phone call if rebooking is an option (depending on point expiration) and try to figure something out.
> 
> If the owner falls #2, (which is typically me), I would expect that the owner can rebook the member.  DVC is being pretty flexible with points right now for reservations in the March-Early April time frame as long as the owner puts forth some effort and the points aren't set to expire soon.
> 
> My two cents. If the owner is able to rebook, I think they should make every effort to do so. But realize that they are renting the points for a reason, and depending on the reason, their hands may be tied.


Ok,  Thank you for explaining the whole process.   I understand that this is a very difficult time for all of us and hope that none of us have to go through this again.


----------



## rkstocke5609

tellingson said:


> So, from the perspective of an owner that occasionally rents out points, there are likely 2 main reasons that owners rent out points.
> 1. Points are nearing expiration and owner isn't going to use them.
> 2. Would rather have the cash for something else.
> 
> With respect to #1, if the points are nearing expiration, the owners are likely more limited in what they can do. Availability is an issue with everyone else cancelling and rebooking for later dates. Also, since you are likely going through a broker, communication is going to take longer which makes availability even harder. Delays from when you send what is available to the renter, to the time you get a response back, may change availability. In this case, I would just have the 2 parties get on a phone call if rebooking is an option (depending on point expiration) and try to figure something out.
> 
> If the owner falls #2, (which is typically me), I would expect that the owner can rebook the member.  DVC is being pretty flexible with points right now for reservations in the March-Early April time frame as long as the owner puts forth some effort and the points aren't set to expire soon.
> 
> My two cents. If the owner is able to rebook, I think they should make every effort to do so. But realize that they are renting the points for a reason, and depending on the reason, their hands may be tied.


I’ll add #3:  There are more than a few folks out there that own twice the number of points than they normally use.  Simple example, owner has 200 points, with MF’s being $8/ point.  Annual MF’s are $1600.  Owner only uses 100 points annually and rents out the other 100 points and nets $1300 renting them for X and paying the broker fee.  Now, the owner enjoys the 100 points they use at an annual cost of $300 in MF’s.


----------



## Marionnette

rkstocke5609 said:


> I’ll add #3:  There are more than a few folks out there that own twice the number of points than they normally use.  Simple example, owner has 200 points, with MF’s being $8/ point.  Annual MF’s are $1600.  Owner only uses 100 points annually and rents out the other 100 points and nets $1300 renting them for X and paying the broker fee.  Now, the owner enjoys the 100 points they use at an annual cost of $300 in MF’s.


Owners who have an abundance of points that they routinely rent are typically not using a broker. They rent privately and cut out the middleman. It’s the owners who occasionally find themselves with an excess of points who turn to brokers.


----------



## LAX

disneypharm said:


> First of all, as a renter, I believe that this is completely my fault to be naive enough to feel that a trip insurance will cover me.  I consider myself a very cautious person with my money.
> 
> If DVC does nothing to help owners, then it is on Disney.  Owners will be losing their hard earned money if they decided to refund the renter.  But I doubt it that Disney will not help the owners during this unfortunate pandemic.
> 
> If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner.  I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance.  If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again.  I wonder what that would do to the rental market.  I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.



I suspect if DVC were to help out owners with expiring points (I haven't seen reports of any here on DIS), most of those owners would be willing to extend some assistance to their renters. However, keep in mind that some owners prefer going through brokers (and leave some money on the table in doing so) because it's normally a relatively painless process, so they may not be able or willing to stalk for availability that's suitable to the renters.

I agree it would be greedy for owners to keep the rent if DVC were to somehow reimburse them for the points. Unfortunately, there are definitely some people that would take advantage of this unfortunate situation just like there are still plenty of scammers out there now.

LAX


----------



## rkstocke5609

Marionnette said:


> Owners who have an abundance of points that they routinely rent are typically not using a broker. They rent privately and cut out the middleman. It’s the owners who occasionally find themselves with an excess of points who turn to brokers.


Interesting.  Of course, no one has statistics on this so it’s really just a matter of opinion.  I still think that some want the buffer of the broker.  Some people don’t want that direct personal relationship with a renter IMHO.


----------



## cvjw

Marionnette said:


> Owners who have an abundance of points that they routinely rent are typically not using a broker. They rent privately and cut out the middleman. It’s the owners who occasionally find themselves with an excess of points who turn to brokers.



We never use our 450 dvc points, and have rented them out thru David’s for several years. We don’t want the hassle of doing it ourselves and have always  used David’s service to have someone to help us if things went south with a renter. We always have been willing to pay his fee for the extra peace of mind if a renter damaged a villa or left a unpaid bill.

No more. After this latest experience, we will be using our points or giving to friends and family to use. Or maybe just sell the contracts.


----------



## RNicole1

LAX said:


> Not directing these comments at you in particular, but in general. Someone stands to lose something because of this unfortunate pandemic. IF DVC does nothing to help owners with reservations during the closure, is it then fair for the owners to lose their hard earned money for nothing? When owners decided to rent out their points for a DVC reservation, those points were worth whatever the renters were willing to pay. The renters thus essentially became "owners" of those points. Had those points been used for a reservation outside of the closures (or these uncertain times), there would have been no issues. Hence, to imply that someone other than the renters is at fault is unfair to those parties, IMHO.
> 
> LAX



If anything, I think the renter and owner should each get 50%. That way they each “lose” something for nothing...


----------



## fsjking

Just interested how many owners would be as firm on their "No refunds" stance if they had their own vacation during this time period and Disney told them they wouldn't return their points or if they did and expired before the resorts re-opened.


----------



## Matty B13

fsjking said:


> Just interested how many owners would be as firm on their "No refunds" stance if they had their own vacation during this time period and Disney told them they wouldn't return their points or if they did and expired before the resorts re-opened.


Any owner who travels past their banking deadline, and towards the end of their UY knows, or should know, that they can lose their points “no refunds“. This is what most renters don’t understand.


----------



## fsjking

Matty B13 said:


> Any owner who travels past their banking deadline, and towards the end of their UY knows, or should know, that they can lose their points “no refunds“. This is what most renters don’t understand.



I missed the "only accept reservations from owners who are early in their UY" check box on David's application page. 

If you know better than to hold your points till the end of your UY, isn't it unethical to transfer that onto an unknowing renter?


----------



## LAX

fsjking said:


> Just interested how many owners would be as firm on their "No refunds" stance if they had their own vacation during this time period and Disney told them they wouldn't return their points or if they did and expired before the resorts re-opened.



I sort of touched on this topic in another thread. It appears that DVC has been returning points to owners whose reservations have been impacted by closure. However, some of these points now have limited "shelf life" and so far DVC hasn't granted any exception to extend them. Hence, are owners supposed to absorb these losses?

As I mention earlier, if DVC/Disney is willing to help owners (no guarantee at this point), then I think they should be more flexible with renters. Other than that, why should the owners be burdened with the risks associated with using those points, which are supposed to be transferred to renters.

I think I have read in another thread that someone brought up an analogy about someone selling gift certificates for a restaurant to another person at a discount. When that restaurant goes out of business before the gift certificates can be redeemed, should the person who purchased the certificates be reimbursed by the person who sold them?

LAX


----------



## Matty B13

fsjking said:


> If you know better than to hold your points till the end of your UY, isn't it unethical to transfer that onto an unknowing renter?


I actually make it quite clear to anyone who rents from me directly, when the points are good from and when they expire, and there are no refunds no matter what. This is the benefit with renting from an owner directly. I’ve actually directed renters to other owners who might have a better chance of filling their requests with less risk. If you check out the Rental threads you will see on several posts owners doing the same for inexperienced renters.


----------



## LAX

fsjking said:


> I missed the "only accept reservations from owners who are early in their UY" check box on David's application page.
> 
> *If you know better than to hold your points till the end of your UY, isn't it unethical to transfer that onto an unknowing renter?*



I don't think it's necessarily unethical as long as it's made clear that a reservation is nonrefundable under any circumstances. Even if those points are current UY and the reservation is relatively early in the UY, the renters shouldn't "expect" to be able to make changes to the reservation just because those points still have a relatively long shelf life. It's a risk that renters assume just like most other financial transactions in life.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> Just interested how many owners would be as firm on their "No refunds" stance if they had their own vacation during this time period and Disney told them they wouldn't return their points or if they did and expired before the resorts re-opened.



Read the many threads and you will find owners who believe DVC needs to make it right and don’t seem to accept the rules of our contract.

The rules are clear in our contract. Traveling the end of UY is risky.  But many feel the rules should be changed.

So, posts here about no refunds means no refunds, taking a hard stance with renters regarding of resort closure, are the exact opposite when owners are talking about their own lost points.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

I’m blown away by how many people don’t seem to understand they OWN the timeshare. 
If my car breaks down I’m out the use of the car for a week. If I rented the car I’m out nothing.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> I missed the "only accept reservations from owners who are early in their UY" check box on David's application page.
> 
> If you know better than to hold your points till the end of your UY, isn't it unethical to transfer that onto an unknowing renter?



Not really because in all situations other than a resort closure...which wasn’t really addressed in these contracts...these reservations are not able to be canceled or changeable by the renter.

It is the resorts being closed that is the issue for expiring points


----------



## CaliAdventurer

I heard from David's and they said that the owner has not answered them but to give it more time.  I'll be doing a charge dispute tomorrow.


----------



## we"reofftoneverland

tellingson said:


> Reading through this thread, I'm am struggling to understand the usefulness of trip insurance.  Seems like a way to make you feel good about the what-ifs but don't actually protect in any substantial way.


I agree.  I think trip insurance has so many exclusions that it is usually pointless.


----------



## TCRAIG

fsjking said:


> Just interested how many owners would be as firm on their "No refunds" stance if they had their own vacation during this time period and Disney told them they wouldn't return their points or if they did and expired before the resorts re-opened.


Isn’t that just what Disney is doing by not returning banked/borrowed points - 
Whether I rented them out or use myself - those points will be gone...


----------



## Matty B13

Maistre Gracey said:


> I’m blown away by how many people don’t seem to understand they OWN the timeshare.
> If my car breaks down I’m out the use of the car for a week. If I rented the car I’m out nothing.


I think AirBnB is a better example, because I don’t think Enterprise or Alamo rent out cars from a third party. But even then, usually the person who is renting the reservation actually owns and controls the property. 

I’m wondering if over on Tugs if their having the same debates, or have examples of this happening before???

Makes me also wonder if a DVC resort had a huge fire, and was taken out of service for 6+ months how DVC would handle that?


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Matty B13 said:


> I think AirBnB is a better example, because I don’t think Enterprise or Alamo rent out cars from a third party. But even then, usually the person who is renting the reservation actually owns and controls the property.
> 
> I’m wondering if over on Tugs if their having the same debates, or have examples of this happening before???
> 
> Makes me also wonder if a DVC resort had a huge fire, and was taken out of service for 6+ months how DVC would handle that?


I’m not sure I follow the first part. If I rent from Alamo and the car breaks down, I just get another car.
Or, if they have no more cars, as a renter I will get a refund.


----------



## TheWheel

LAX said:


> I sort of touched on this topic in another thread. It appears that DVC has been returning points to owners whose reservations have been impacted by closure. However, some of these points now have limited "shelf life" and so far DVC hasn't granted any exception to extend them. Hence, are owners supposed to absorb these losses?
> 
> As I mention earlier, if DVC/Disney is willing to help owners (no guarantee at this point), then I think they should be more flexible with renters. Other than that, why should the owners be burdened with the risks associated with using those points, which are supposed to be transferred to renters.
> 
> I think I have read in another thread that someone brought up an analogy about someone selling gift certificates for a restaurant to another person at a discount. When that restaurant goes out of business before the gift certificates can be redeemed, should the person who purchased the certificates be reimbursed by the person who sold them?
> 
> LAX


Because they are the owner and cannot transfer the points, only offer the accommodations which they cannot provide. Using your restaurant analogy, if you made a reservation for a restaurant that required you pay in advance but upon arrival the restaurant is closed. Do they get to keep your money?


----------



## Sandisw

TCRAIG said:


> Isn’t that just what Disney is doing by not returning banked/borrowed points -
> Whether I rented them out or use myself - those points will be gone...



Disney is returning points but  read how many owners want the rules of the contract to be ignored and allow banking beyond deadline or to have banked points banked again.

There is definitely a different mindset  from owners who have their own vacations canceled and stand to lose points vs, owners who feel renters are out of luck if a new reservation cant be figured out


----------



## Sandisw

Matty B13 said:


> I think AirBnB is a better example, because I don’t think Enterprise or Alamo rent out cars from a third party. But even then, usually the person who is renting the reservation actually owns and controls the property.
> 
> I’m wondering if over on Tugs if their having the same debates, or have examples of this happening before???
> 
> Makes me also wonder if a DVC resort had a huge fire, and was taken out of service for 6+ months how DVC would handle that?



Based on the terms of the actual contract we signed, my understanding of it is that we would be out of luck unless there was some insurance settlement that would be used to cover losses,

Anything DVCM does to change terms of points, is not required. They do not have to as they have an obligation to keep the system in balance and that is part of the contract,

Think of it as the debate here,  Owners believe that since there is a contract with a no refunds or change clause, they aren’t required to do it, but are helping renters,

Changes being made for owners is being done out of goodwill, not that it is legally required.


----------



## Matty B13

Sandisw said:


> Based on the terms of the actual contract we signed, my understanding of it is that we would be out of luck unless there was some insurance settlement that would be used to cover losses,
> 
> Anything DVCM does to change terms of points, is not required. They do not have to as they have an obligation to keep the system in balance and that is part of the contract,
> 
> Think of it as the debate here,  Owners believe that since there is a contract with a no refunds or change clause, they aren’t required to do it, but are helping renters,
> 
> Changes being made for owners is being done out of goodwill, not that it is legally required.


That is why I think after this mess has been settled, that DVC should come out with a "clear" policy in case another event like this happens, and the policy could be referenced an any rental agreement as well.  That way Owners & Renters know exactly how things will be handled, and are not waiting/wanting pixie dust to happen.


----------



## Sandisw

Matty B13 said:


> That is why I think after this mess has been settled, that DVC should come out with a "clear" policy in case another event like this happens, and the policy could be referenced an any rental agreement as well.  That way Owners & Renters know exactly how things will be handled, and are not waiting/wanting pixie dust to happen.



It would be nice, but there is always pixie dust given, just never been for this mass scale.  So, I do think we could have some flexibility but when there is a closure like this,IMO, rules should be followed, other than holding.

As an owner who may rent in the future, i know for sure it would be clear what is going to happen.  Though, after this, just not sure I want to.


----------



## McCrae

disneypharm said:


> I agree with everything you mentioned above.  We have been to WDW 5-6 times in the last 17 years but have always stayed in moderates and values.  We always had trip insurance and never needed to file a claim.  We have a split stay (2 contracts) for 10 days in early May that we rented 11 months ago. This is our first time renting and we are celebrating our 30th anniversary and my daughter's college graduation.  I have already lost thousands of dollars because my other's daughter's study abroad was cut short and her trip insurance didn't cover the expenses.  Now I am close to losing thousands more because of renting DVC.   Even if they are willing to reschedule or refund our money, I will not put ourselves in this situation again and make sure my family and friends are also aware that renting can be extremely risky  (added:  unless contracts are different or trip insurances start covering these situations).



Good trip insurance already exists that covers this type of event.


----------



## McCrae

Matty B13 said:


> That is why I think after this mess has been settled, that DVC should come out with a "clear" policy in case another event like this happens, and the policy could be referenced an any rental agreement as well.  That way Owners & Renters know exactly how things will be handled, and are not waiting/wanting pixie dust to happen.


I think people  will be advised to get more comprehensive insurance.  Coverage is available for this, most people probably not aware of it, others maybe decided not to pay the additional premium.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> Good trip insurance already exists that covers this type of event.



I am reading posts from renters who had CFAR and this situation is not covered,  I have yet to read anyone who has been successful.


----------



## McCrae

TheWheel said:


> Because they are the owner and cannot transfer the points, only offer the accommodations which they cannot provide. Using your restaurant analogy, if you made a reservation for a restaurant that required you pay in advance but upon arrival the restaurant is closed. Do they get to keep your money?


Points can be transferred for example to RCI Where alternative holidays can be taken.


----------



## McCrae

Maistre Gracey said:


> I’m blown away by how many people don’t seem to understand they OWN the timeshare.
> If my car breaks down I’m out the use of the car for a week. If I rented the car I’m out nothing.


It’s not as clear as that. Owners are paid for points, not length stay at a resort.


----------



## Bearval

I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money.  It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It  will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding.   If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> Not really because in all situations other than a resort closure...which wasn’t really addressed in these contracts...these reservations are not able to be canceled or changeable by the renter.
> 
> It is the resorts being closed that is the issue for expiring points


I expect that very few renters take out any insurance and even fewer will have a policy that would cover this. I have an annual insurance policy for travel that doesn’t cover this, but if I had asked at the time of taking the policy out cover could have been arranged.


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money.  It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It  will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding.   If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.


You are probably right, the question would be how is any judgement enforced, especially with owners from different states or even countries are involved. A renter could easily end up paying more to cover court costs and just be further out of pocket.


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> You are probably right, the question would be how is any judgement enforced, especially with owners from different states or even countries are involved. A renter could easily end up paying more to cover court costs and just be further out of pocket.


You just need one renter to win based upon the contract not being binding then others can use that as a precedent and a lien can be put on the property (your timeshare).


----------



## Bearval

Bearval said:


> You just need one renter to win based upon the contract not being binding then others can use that as a precedent and a lien can be put on the property (your timeshare).


If you lose and a lien is placed on the property you will have to pay court costs and the costs to remove the lien after you satisfy the judgment.


----------



## we"reofftoneverland

McCrae said:


> I think people  will be advised to get more comprehensive insurance.  Coverage is available for this, most people probably not aware of it, others maybe decided not to pay the additional premium.


Does any insurance cover pandemics?  My husband says that no insurance covers pandemics.


----------



## Lewisc

Sandisw said:


> I am reading posts from renters who had CFAR and this situation is not covered,  I have yet to read anyone who has been successful.


CFAR covers some, depending on when you cancel, of your non-refundable costs.  Rental contracts aren't valid if the property is closed.  Some posters don't agree but David's has said as much.   Contract isn't valid, the insured is entitled to a refund.  No reason for the insurance company to pay.  Assume the broker or member can't financially pay the insured.  That would be coverage for financial default which is frequently excluded outright, or sometimes included if the supplier is on a list.

Some policies might pay.  Some might not.  Travel policies list exactly what's covered.  I think many internet posters have an unrealistic expectation as to what is covered by travel insurance.


----------



## Sandisw

Lewisc said:


> CFAR covers some, depending on when you cancel, of your non-refundable costs.  Rental contracts aren't valid if the property is closed.  Some posters don't agree but David's has said as much.   Contract isn't valid, the insured is entitled to a refund.  No reason for the insurance company to pay.  Assume the broker or member can't financially pay the insured.  That would be coverage for financial default which is frequently excluded outright, or sometimes included if the supplier is on a list.
> 
> Some policies might pay.  Some might not.  Travel policies list exactly what's covered.  I think many internet posters have an unrealistic expectation as to what is covered by travel insurance.



Interesting information.


----------



## CarolynFH

Matty B13 said:


> I’m wondering if over on Tugs if their having the same debates, or have examples of this happening before???


https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/redweek-holding-all-payments-regardless.302908/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/angry-renter-wants-full-refund-on-non-refundable-rental.302934/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/refund-for-coronavirus-cancellations.302664/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/d...ns-without-penalty-due-to-coronavirus.302733/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/how-exchange-companies-are-handling-cancellations-thread.302667/There are many more such threads.  Enjoy!


----------



## TCRAIG

Sandisw said:


> Disney is returning points but  read how many owners want the rules of the contract to be ignored and allow banking beyond deadline or to have banked points banked again.
> 
> There is definitely a different mindset  from owners who have their own vacations canceled and stand to lose points vs, owners who feel renters are out of luck if a new reservation cant be figured out


Right now - Disney is restoring borrowed points back to their use year but they are now allowing points to be banked past their deadline...so for my May reservation - if it gets cancelled - I will have 154 2019 points gone - I’m would not be happy about that but I’d understand...the Initial comment was how would an owner feel if Disney didn’t refund - well Disney isn’t refunding 100% depending on the status of the points and UY...I haven’t read any owner comments about threatening to sue or calling Disney a crook and a thief


----------



## Sandisw

TCRAIG said:


> Right now - Disney is restoring borrowed points back to their use year but they are now allowing points to be banked past their deadline...so for my May reservation - if it gets cancelled - I will have 154 2019 points gone - I’m would not be happy about that but I’d understand...the Initial comment was how would an owner feel if Disney didn’t refund - well Disney isn’t refunding 100% depending on the status of the points and UY...I haven’t read any owner comments about threatening to sue or calling Disney a crook and a thief



This is where we differ. Disney is refunding all points. No owner is not getting the points back to their account from a canceled reservation.

The fact that the owner may not be able to use them and will lose them, because of the rules of our contract regarding banking, doesn’t change that all points are being resorted to the account in the status used

Yes, they are making exceptions to the rules for borrowed points.  So, owners are upset that Disney isn’t bending the banking rules part of the contfact,

Owners would have no right to sue for breach of contract because DVCM didn’t ignore the rules.


----------



## KingRichard

Beesknees6 said:


> So what will you do? I’m in a similar situation


I can only hope Disney will be back open by then.


----------



## Krandor

Bearval said:


> I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money.  It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It  will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding.   If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.



Renters do not have a contrract with the owners. They have a contract with Davids. If they want to file a lawsuit it is with David. The owner is not a party to the contract.

Even if they did file against the owner, the owner cannot give them a 100% refund because the owner doesn't have 100% of the money.  They have at best around 50% of it since that is all they have been paid to date.  David's has their commission and 30% of the money due to the owner. The only entitty that ever had ALL of the money the renter paid was David.


----------



## Matty B13

CarolynFH said:


> https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/redweek-holding-all-payments-regardless.302908/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/angry-renter-wants-full-refund-on-non-refundable-rental.302934/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/refund-for-coronavirus-cancellations.302664/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/d...ns-without-penalty-due-to-coronavirus.302733/https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/how-exchange-companies-are-handling-cancellations-thread.302667/There are many more such threads.  Enjoy!


Looks like my parents who have been renting their place in Maine for 20+ years have been right all along..... Always deal directly with a renter and only take personal checks.  They stopped using VRBO/Homeaway because of the way they wanted to take control of an owners rentals and payments.


----------



## Miffy

I've been following this thread and another thread here with similar discussions.

I hope that in the future, not just DVC rental brokers but also anyone who rents their DVC points will make it totally clear upfront in the most blatant way possible, and before any rental agreements are signed, what the resolution to the coronavirus shutdowns will turn out to be--as well as making it super clear exactly what the terms are. Because for sure a few months from now and definitely a couple of years from now, renters will be uncaring of the risks involved on their end. I see it here on the DIS all the time. People will post with their questions about future stays--what should I do?--several people will recommend renting points, and the negative aspects of doing so will be glossed over, dismissed, or ignored completely.

Yes, the negatives are clearly set out by David's and by other agencies and by the owners themselves. But renters don't seem to get it--that under most circumstances, their reservation is set in stone, cannot be moved or changed, and is totally nonrefundable.

Also, instead of advising renters to get trip insurance and saying "Google it and you'll find something somewhere," there should be a sticky on the DIS where trip insurance companies are recommended and people can post their actual experiences with them. Because I keep seeing posters saying that renters should've gotten trip insurance, and I have yet to see anyone post that they had insurance that covered a pandemic. Sure, this is an unusual event--_now_ it's unusual. Maybe 10 years from now, this won't be so unusual. I hope not, but not only don't I know, no one does.


----------



## Deb & Bill

TheWheel said:


> Because they are the owner and cannot transfer the points, only offer the accommodations which they cannot provide. Using your restaurant analogy, if you made a reservation for a restaurant that required you pay in advance but upon arrival the restaurant is closed. Do they get to keep your money?


It's more like if you bought a VISA gift card to a restaurant, didn't go until six months later and found it expired before you used it because of VISA fees.  Do you still get to use it or are you out money?


RNicole1 said:


> If anything, I think the renter and owner should each get 50%. That way they each “lose” something for nothing...


So the points owner should refund about 25% of what they have from the broker since they only got about 53% of the money the renter paid and the broker should pay the other 25%.  The renter is out 50%.  That gives the owners about $7.60 per point which is about enough to pay for the annual fee on each point.


----------



## davper

CarolMN said:


> Another interesting fact relating to hurricane IRMA that I read about on another board:
> 
> It's been reported that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.


Hi
dis they happen to list the docket# for reference?


----------



## Krandor

Miffy said:


> I've been following this thread and another thread here with similar discussions.
> 
> I hope that in the future, not just DVC rental brokers but also anyone who rents their DVC points will make it totally clear upfront in the most blatant way possible, and before any rental agreements are signed, what the resolution to the coronavirus shutdowns will turn out to be--as well as making it super clear exactly what the terms are. Because for sure a few months from now and definitely a couple of years from now, renters will be uncaring of the risks involved on their end. I see it here on the DIS all the time. People will post with their questions about future stays--what should I do?--several people will recommend renting points, and the negative aspects of doing so will be glossed over, dismissed, or ignored completely.
> 
> Yes, the negatives are clearly set out by David's and by other agencies and by the owners themselves. But renters don't seem to get it--that under most circumstances, their reservation is set in stone, cannot be moved or changed, and is totally nonrefundable.
> 
> Also, instead of advising renters to get trip insurance and saying "Google it and you'll find something somewhere," there should be a sticky on the DIS where trip insurance companies are recommended and people can post their actual experiences with them. Because I keep seeing posters saying that renters should've gotten trip insurance, and I have yet to see anyone post that they had insurance that covered a pandemic. Sure, this is an unusual event--_now_ it's unusual. Maybe 10 years from now, this won't be so unusual. I hope not, but not only don't I know, no one does.



Totally agree.  it may not be another pandemic but there could be a hurricane that closes things for a few days or soemthing like 9/11 or even a fire breaks out in one of the DVC resorts.  While unlikely all are certainly possible things that could happen


----------



## KingRichard

A couple thing about lost points. They couldn't give them for next use year because we all know that they would not have enough rooms available. 

They could maybe open up none DVC rooms for a comparable rate, but that would cost Disney a lot of cash!

Someone posted about giving those points at contract end. I thought great idea! Just remember how high the dues will be then?

$30-40 per point?

Disney can not win. 

The cheapest way out for Disney would be refund Dues(not Taxes) and the cost of those points when sold($2 per point)? Even if they included Taxes for BLT I would be looking at Less then $9 per point! 

*Better then nothing!*


----------



## davper

TCRAIG said:


> Same here - banked and borrowed points From a June contract for an April rental - I’ll do what I can...


I have the same situation. I stand to lose 2+ years of points on 5/31 if Disney won't allow me to bank my current use year and place my borrowed points back. The banked points will be lost regardless.


----------



## McCrae

we"reofftoneverland said:


> Does any insurance cover pandemics?  My husband says that no insurance covers pandemics.


If you use a broker to get your coverage they should be able to source cover for you.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> If you use a broker to get your coverage they should be able to source cover for you.



Not sure that happened with this broker.  Just from reports from renters who used them, got insurance and out of luck,

Honestly, I don’t think many of us would have thought about a pandemic when seeking insurance,


----------



## davper

CraigInPA said:


> There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.
> 
> When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).
> 
> The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.
> 
> The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party.
> 
> One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat.
> 
> But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book.
> 
> I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.


I think David's did cover themselves in the contract. David's is scrambling to protect there renters so that they will continue to rent in the future.

Here is the first part of David's contract that the renter signs:
_Terms: All Sales Final

I _____________ have been advised by David's Vacation Club Rentals to consider the purchase trip cancellation insurance. _I interpret this as 'You have been warned that all sales are final and you are responsible for protecting your investment if something were to go wrong'.
_
If you have indicated that you are a Canadian Citizen we also recommend the consideration of purchasing out of Province Health Insurance.

Neither David's Vacation Club Rentals nor The Member will assume any responsibility for specific room requests not honored by Disney at the time of arrival. _Granted this is not the intent of this line, but it can be argued that Disney is not honoring the reservation and providing the guest with a room and David's & Member are not responsible.
_
David's Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort. _I read this as not responsible if Disney closes any part of the resort including the resort itself.

A renter took ownership of the points when both parties signed the agreement. If the points should go down in value, through no part of the Member or David's, then the liability falls on the renter. After I signed, my responsibility was to keep my dues up to date and help the renter with changes or addons. With that said, If I am allowed to bank the current points and restore the borrowed points, I will let the renter reschedule within the year. But the previously banked points are lost and the renter was made aware of the fact that points have a shelf life. If all points are lost, I am strongly leaning to return the 30% still owed to me as a gesture of goodwill.


----------



## CarolMN

davper said:


> Hi
> dis they happen to list the docket# for reference?


No, they didn't.  Would have liked to read that myself.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> Not sure that happened with this broker.  Just from reports from renters who used them, got insurance and out of luck,
> 
> Honestly, I don’t think many of us would have thought about a pandemic when seeking insurance,



I agree... most people don’t read all of the conditions of their insurance and would assume sometimes they have coverage when they don’t.  This crisis though will probably change how people purchase insurance.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Sandisw said:


> I am reading posts from renters who had CFAR and this situation is not covered,  I have yet to read anyone who has been successful.


I'm not clear on how they can characterize a policy as CFAR (cancel for ANY reason) when they really mean "cancel for any reason... except those that aren't covered" (CFARETTAC).


----------



## davper

lauraleh said:


> I haven't waded into this conversation yet because it's obviously very owner heavy board but OMG this!
> 
> I am a renter.  I paid for a hotel stay.  You can't provide that hotel stay? I get my money back.  I'm not involved with the logistics of when your points expire.


Actually, I rented you points. And on your behalf, those point were traded with Disney for a stay.


----------



## Minniesgal

disneypharm said:


> First of all, as a renter, I believe that this is completely my fault to be naive enough to feel that a trip insurance will cover me.  I consider myself a very cautious person with my money.
> 
> If DVC does nothing to help owners, then it is on Disney.  Owners will be losing their hard earned money if they decided to refund the renter.  But I doubt it that Disney will not help the owners during this unfortunate pandemic.
> 
> If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner.  I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance.  If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again.  I wonder what that would do to the rental market.  I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.



In my opinion this sees things are more black and white than they are.

I agree that if DVC returns points to the owner, and if those points remain reusable, and if there is availability for rooms before those point expire then it would be unreasonable for the owner not to reschedule for the renter.  But thats a lot of stars that have to line up.

But if those points are returned but effectively unusable because either they expire soon or expire before there is availability I think it is very harsh for renters to expect a full refund from owners and in my opinion a 50 50 split of the costs would be much fairer as noone is at fault here.


----------



## Lewisc

we"reofftoneverland said:


> I agree.  I think trip insurance has so many exclusions that it is usually pointless.


Travel insurance generally covers exactly what's listed in the policy.  The problem is people assume it covers what they want it to cover.  Some people seem to think what's listed is an example of what's covered rather then an inclusive list.


McCrae said:


> Good trip insurance already exists that covers this type of event.



CFAR policies cover non-refundable charges.  A closed resort means the contract isn't valid, David's interpretation, so a refund is due.  No reason for insurance to pay.  Now if the resort was open and the insured cancelled due to fear of travel there would be coverage.


Krandor said:


> Renters do not have a contrract with the owners. They have a contract with Davids. If they want to file a lawsuit it is with David. The owner is not a party to the contract.
> 
> Even if they did file against the owner, the owner cannot give them a 100% refund because the owner doesn't have 100% of the money.  They have at best around 50% of it since that is all they have been paid to date.  David's has their commission and 30% of the money due to the owner. The only entitty that ever had ALL of the money the renter paid was David.



The specium renters agreement on David's website is between the owner and renter.  It's electronically signed.  At least one poster doesn't think the owner's electronic signature is valid.  Some might think accepting the money, after receiving a copy of the contract, suggests acceptance.


Grumpy by Birth said:


> I'm not clear on how they can characterize a policy as CFAR (cancel for ANY reason) when they really mean "cancel for any reason... except those that aren't covered" (CFARETTAC).


It is CFAR.  The question is which charges are reimbursable by insurance and which should be refunded by the travel supplier.


----------



## bababear_50

Just dropping by to say.....
I tried transferring money to my Paypal a week ago to refund an owner......estimated time of transfer to happen is Friday 27th..............................patience ..............................

Regards
Mel


----------



## davper

DGsAtBLT said:


> I don’t know, I’m playing around on Disney’s site pricing out pretend trips (as one does when they can’t actually go lol) and found a 2 bedroom at Beach Club for about $600 more total for a 10 night stay than David’s. Approximately a $600 premium, or $60 a night, is more than worth it IMO for peace of mind, ease of change/cancellation, and actually being able to secure the room (not sitting on a wait list that may never come through). The point rental savings on a Poly studio for that same time frame (just picking what I see available) were larger, closer to $120 a night. I’m not comparing to rack rate, but to what one would actually pay with Disney.
> 
> Definitely depends on the time of year, the resort you’re considering, room type, etc. The savings aren’t necessarily always that large even at this point before prices potentially drop.



That is one hell of a deal if you still have it, because I just looked. A weeks stay in a 2 bed in 1st week of October is $4,560 total on points. Cash stay costs $9,622 + taxes and fees. Points cost less than half the cash rate.

I figured cash rates would be cheaper in May due to many cancellations and low demand. But nope, it is still roughly the same cost.


----------



## davper

bobbiwoz said:


> I have rented three times, each was for a studio.  I think and hope that the studio availability will rise when rentals are fewer.


Not likely, If there are no more rentals, the points will still get used. Either by the member or because the member gave them away to a family/friend. We will not let them go to waste. Giving them to charity is better than letting them go to waste.


----------



## CaliAdventurer

Update on my sitch:  I reached out to the owner via FB and again to Davids and told them I would give it a week and dispute or if they can tell me the points are expiring (which they could since they know the UY) and then I would understand and move on with my life.   About an hour later they let me know that they finally reached the owner and though the points are expiring April UY, he agreed to refund.   So it's a happy ending for me.   But it does appear that they are reaching out to owners.  How far they will go without a squeaking wheel, who knows?  But I can say that in my case, they handled it.


----------



## Krandor

CaliAdventurer said:


> Update on my sitch:  I reached out to the owner via FB and again to Davids and told them I would give it a week and dispute or if they can tell me the points are expiring (which they could since they know the UY) and then I would understand and move on with my life.   About an hour later they let me know that they finally reached the owner and though the points are expiring April UY, he agreed to refund.   So it's a happy ending for me.   But it does appear that they are reaching out to owners.  How far they will go without a squeaking wheel, who knows?  But I can say that in my case, they handled it.



Are they refunding 100%?  including David's commission?


----------



## davper

bobbiwoz said:


> I have rented three times, each was for a studio.  I think and hope that the studio availability will rise when rentals are fewer.


Not likely, If there are no more rentals, the points will still get used. Either by the member or because the member gave them away to a family/friend. We will not let them go to waste. Giving them to charity is better than letting them go to waste.


tallguy001 said:


> What the contract says is irrelevant because it is void.


Just curious, how is it void?
I rented points to the broker who then rented them to a renter. Those points were then used to create a reservation on behalf of the renter. I received consideration for fulfilling my end of the agreement. The renter is now the owner of those points. If the value of those points should change before the renter has a chance to use them, that is on the renter. That is the risk the renter is taking on a volatile item. That is why they are encouraged to protect their investment.

IANAL and I am sure we will see arguments made before a judge on this.


----------



## MICKIMINI

CaliAdventurer said:


> Update on my sitch:  I reached out to the owner via FB and again to Davids and told them I would give it a week and dispute or if they can tell me the points are expiring (which they could since they know the UY) and then I would understand and move on with my life.   About an hour later they let me know that they finally reached the owner and though the points are expiring April UY, he agreed to refund.   So it's a happy ending for me.   But it does appear that they are reaching out to owners.  How far they will go without a squeaking wheel, who knows?  But I can say that in my case, they handled it.


It's a happy ending for you - but what about the owner?  They are out the value of those points as you are celebrating your victory lap with not so much as a thank you.  Do you know if the broker refunded the owner for the fee they paid?  I hope you appreciate that they gave back a NON REFUNDABLE contract which you knowingly signed.  A thoughtful thank you note to the owners with a $100 gift card for Disney would be gracious and a small acknowledgement that they were kind.  

Honestly, I hope you buy DVC rather than rent again.  Respectfully, if you really want to stay at DVC, please write a check for 20K or 30K and you won't have to worry about it again.


----------



## tallguy001

davper said:


> Not likely, If there are no more rentals, the points will still get used. Either by the member or because the member gave them away to a family/friend. We will not let them go to waste. Giving them to charity is better than letting them go to waste.
> 
> Just curious, how is it void?
> I rented points to the broker who then rented them to a renter. Those points were then used to create a reservation on behalf of the renter. I received consideration for fulfilling my end of the agreement. The renter is now the owner of those points. If the value of those points should change before the renter has a chance to use them, that is on the renter. That is the risk the renter is taking on a volatile item. That is why they are encouraged to protect their investment.
> 
> IANAL and I am sure we will see arguments made before a judge on this.



The renter does not own the points. The renter has a reservation in their name. The reservation is canceled. The renter now has nothing, therefore no consideration. The points are with the owner. If the value of the points should change before the owner has a chance to use them, that is on the owner.


----------



## CaliAdventurer

MICKIMINI said:


> It's a happy ending for you - but what about the owner?  They are out the value of those points as you are celebrating your victory lap with not so much as a thank you.  Do you know if the broker refunded the owner for the fee they paid?  I hope you appreciate that they gave back a NON REFUNDABLE contract which you knowingly signed.  A thoughtful thank you note to the owners with a $100 gift card for Disney would be gracious and a small acknowledgement that they were kind.
> 
> Honestly, I hope you buy DVC rather than rent again.  Respectfully, if you really want to stay at DVC, please write a check for 20K or 30K and you won't have to worry about it again.


Woah, go easy on the assumptions!  I did relay thanks to the owner and as an OWNER of 1340 points at VGF, VGC, and Aulani, I can tell you that I have written checks for many times more the numbers you mentioned.  I was borrowed out due to taking 23 family members to VGF last year and added 3 days to my own trip with rental.  I had also told Davids that if they were banked expiring, I would not pursue anything.  Not that I owe you an explanation. 

As an owner, I also know that DVC has told owners in this situation to hang tight and they are working on solutions once they know the scope of the problem and I believe they will not leave this owner with nothing, which is good for him considering his points were expiring April 1 and I rented them 1 day before the closure was announced for the last three days of the month.   If I were him, I would have accepted that I was losing my points by then and now he has hope of some remediation.  

As an owner of said number of points, I would like there to be a healthy rental market in the event I ever want to rent out my points and stiffing renters is NOT how to ensure demand. If an owner received the points back from DVC, those belong to the renter as far as I'm concerned.   Prices were at $20 what will they they be now with lost faith?


----------



## TheWheel

davper said:


> I think David's did cover themselves in the contract. David's is scrambling to protect there renters so that they will continue to rent in the future.
> 
> Here is the first part of David's contract that the renter signs:
> _Terms: All Sales Final
> 
> I _____________ have been advised by David's Vacation Club Rentals to consider the purchase trip cancellation insurance. _I interpret this as 'You have been warned that all sales are final and you are responsible for protecting your investment if something were to go wrong'.
> 
> _If you have indicated that you are a Canadian Citizen we also recommend the consideration of purchasing out of Province Health Insurance.
> 
> Neither David's Vacation Club Rentals nor The Member will assume any responsibility for specific room requests not honored by Disney at the time of arrival. _Granted this is not the intent of this line, but it can be argued that Disney is not honoring the reservation and providing the guest with a room and David's & Member are not responsible.
> 
> _David's Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort. _I read this as not responsible if Disney closes any part of the resort including the resort itself.
> 
> A renter took ownership of the points when both parties signed the agreement. If the points should go down in value, through no part of the Member or David's, then the liability falls on the renter. After I signed, my responsibility was to keep my dues up to date and help the renter with changes or addons. With that said, If I am allowed to bank the current points and restore the borrowed points, I will let the renter reschedule within the year. But the previously banked points are lost and the renter was made aware of the fact that points have a shelf life. If all points are lost, I am strongly leaning to return the 30% still owed to me as a gesture of goodwill.


You are looking at this through very owner colored glasses.

The insurance line is a suggestion to purchase insurance in case the renter needs to cancel.

Room requests are things like "pool view" not "I'd request that I actually have a room when I arrive."

The operations line specifically references "amenities" (a desirable or useful feature or facility of a building or place.)  controlled by the resort, not the accommodations themselves.

You cannot pass ownership of the points to a renter only book accommodations in their name using your points. If you passed ownership of the points then DVC would need to refund those points to the renter not the owner and the renter would be able to contact Disney directly.

As a deeded timeshare Disney DVC owners are in fact "owners" so closing the resort is in fact an action by the owner and you left out the below.

Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but *not limited to negligence* on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XX.XX US Dollars.


----------



## Lewisc

davper said:


> I rented points to the broker who then rented them to a renter. Those points were then used to create a reservation on behalf of the renter. I received consideration for fulfilling my end of the agreement. The renter is now the owner of those points. If the value of those points should change before the renter has a chance to use them, that is on the renter. That is the risk the renter is taking on a volatile item. That is why they are encouraged to protect their investment.


Did you transfer the points to the brokers DVC contract? Did the broker then make a reservation using what are now the broker's points? That's the transaction you described.  Rarely done that way.

You "rented points" to the renter not the broker, at least per Dave's rental agreement.  If you literally rented the points the renter would be able to call Disney and directly make the reservation, book DME, add on dining etc.  You made a reservation for the renter, using your points, in exchange for $$$.  Resort is closed there is no longer a valid contract.  You don't have the ability to make Disney honor your rental agreement by opening the resort for one guest.  The contract isn't valid and the renter is owed a refund.  That's David's interpretation.

I think the renter would be stuck, unless he bought CFAR insurance, if the resorts where open but not the theme parks.


----------



## tallguy001

Lewisc said:


> Did you transfer the points to the brokers DVC contract? Did the broker then make a reservation using what are now the broker's points? That's the transaction you described.  Rarely done that way.
> 
> You "rented points" to the renter not the broker, at least per Dave's rental agreement.  If you literally rented the points the renter would be able to call Disney and directly make the reservation, book DME, add on dining etc.  You made a reservation for the renter, using your points, in exchange for $$$.  Resort is closed there is no longer a valid contract.  You don't have the ability to make Disney honor your rental agreement by opening the resort for one guest.  The contract isn't valid and the renter is owed a refund.  That's David's interpretation.



This is 100% accurate. Based on David’s emails to owners, his legal representation clearly knows this as well. Parsing of contract language (NO REFUNDS!!!) is irrelevant when there is no valid contract.

This is only when the resort is closed. Renter is out of luck if the resorts are open and don’t want to (can’t) travel.


----------



## McCrae

Minniesgal said:


> In my opinion this sees things are more black and white than they are.
> 
> I agree that if DVC returns points to the owner, and if those points remain reusable, and if there is availability for rooms before those point expire then it would be unreasonable for the owner not to reschedule for the renter.  But thats a lot of stars that have to line up.
> 
> But if those points are returned but effectively unusable because either they expire soon or expire before there is availability I think it is very harsh for renters to expect a full refund from owners and in my opinion a 50 50 split of the costs would be much fairer as noone is at fault here.



Does anyone have an example where an owner could reschedule, but has refused?


----------



## davper

disneypharm said:


> If DVC returns points back to the owner, and the owner refuses to refund or change the reservation, then it will be on the owner. I understand that the contract clearly states nonrefundable,but this is an unusual circumstance. If a lot of owners refuse to refund or change their reservations (I have seen a few here), then we will have a lot of renters who will never rent again. I wonder what that would do to the rental market. I know if I were an owner, I will do everything in my power to help the renter reschedule.


If Disney works with me, I can work with the Renter/David's



cvjw said:


> We never use our 450 dvc points, and have rented them out thru David’s for several years. We don’t want the hassle of doing it ourselves and have always used David’s service to have someone to help us if things went south with a renter. We always have been willing to pay his fee for the extra peace of mind if a renter damaged a villa or left a unpaid bill.
> 
> No more. After this latest experience, we will be using our points or giving to friends and family to use. Or maybe just sell the contracts.


Has David's forced you to return monies? Have they given you bad service? Don't understand why you won't use David's anymore when it seams for years they have done exactly what you have asked of them.



Sandisw said:


> Not really because in all situations other than a resort closure...which wasn’t really addressed in these contracts...these reservations are not able to be canceled or changeable by the renter.


The reservation IS changeable or cancel able by the renter, I have made several changes for the renter in the last few months. If I don't, I am in breach of the agreement. The renter can use those points however they see fit. If they want to reschedule, they can.

A DVC member cannot offer accomodations unless it is a reservation they already made. They are only offering points for which they agreed to be go between with Disney in making the reservation. This is in the agreement that I signed '_Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations_'. Points were rented from me, not a reservation.



Sandisw said:


> Disney is returning points but read how many owners want the rules of the contract to be ignored and allow banking beyond deadline or to have banked points banked again.
> 
> There is definitely a different mindset from owners who have their own vacations canceled and stand to lose points vs, owners who feel renters are out of luck if a new reservation cant be figured out


Because it has been posted on this board a couple of times that there is travel insurance that cover pandemic, If I don't purchase that coverage, then I am assuming the risk. Why shouldn't we ask the same of the renter?

Yes, I would have to pay the full freight if I don't have insurance. I am not asking Disney to break any rules. They were laid out when I purchased.




Matty B13 said:


> That is why I think after this mess has been settled, that DVC should come out with a "clear" policy in case another event like this happens, and the policy could be referenced an any rental agreement as well. That way Owners & Renters know exactly how things will be handled, and are not waiting/wanting pixie dust to happen.


You won't see a change in DVC's agreement. They already have a clear policy.



Bearval said:


> I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money. It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding. If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.


Members who went through a broker won't end up in small claims. The broker will. While you say it is of low cost, you aren't considering that you must file in the jurisdiction that the transaction took place. In the case of renting from David's, that is in Canada. Do they have a small claims court there. And the last time I looked, $2000 was the limit in my jurisdiction for small claims. Most paid more.



tallguy001 said:


> The renter does not own the points. The renter has a reservation in their name. The reservation is canceled. The renter now has nothing, therefore no consideration. The points are with the owner.


The renter has control of points. I cannot do anything with those points or I will be in breach. David's cannot do anything with those points or they will be in breach. The party who has any control of those points and not be in breach is the renter. They direct the member on what to do with those rented points
Yes the renter has a reservation in their name by using the points they rented. If the reservation gets canceled, they still have the points and can go at a later time provided the points they have acquired has not expired.
My agreement say that a reservation is secured by using rented points. One side offered points for consideration the other side offered cash for consideration. Points are still available therefore the contract is not void.


----------



## tallguy001

davper said:


> The renter has control of points. I cannot do anything with those points or I will be in breach. David's cannot do anything with those points or they will be in breach. The party who has any control of those points and not be in breach is the renter. They direct the member on what to do with those rented points
> Yes the renter has a reservation in their name by using the points they rented. If the reservation gets canceled, they still have the points and can go at a later time provided the points they have acquired has not expired.
> My agreement say that a reservation is secured by using rented points. One side offered points for consideration the other side offered cash for consideration. Points are still available therefore the contract is not void.



This is not accurate. The renter never has points. The renter cannot make a reservation with the points. The contract is for the reservation, not the points. If the resort is closed the points revert to the owner. The renter has no way to use those points.


----------



## tallguy001

davper said:


> The reservation IS changeable or cancel able by the renter, I have made several changes for the renter in the last few months.



Here‘s the rub. You made the change. The renter is not able to independently make this change on their own because they do not own the points.


----------



## Sandisw

MICKIMINI said:


> It's a happy ending for you - but what about the owner?  They are out the value of those points as you are celebrating your victory lap with not so much as a thank you.  Do you know if the broker refunded the owner for the fee they paid?  I hope you appreciate that they gave back a NON REFUNDABLE contract which you knowingly signed.  A thoughtful thank you note to the owners with a $100 gift card for Disney would be gracious and a small acknowledgement that they were kind.
> 
> Honestly, I hope you buy DVC rather than rent again.  Respectfully, if you really want to stay at DVC, please write a check for 20K or 30K and you won't have to worry about it again.



With all due respect, it’s been shared here thst not having a clause for this type of situation in the contract, calls into question the non refundable aspect of the contract between the renter and broker..

Some feel it does and others do not. IMO, if refunds are being given, and owners may be losing out on the payments that were held back, then maybe the broker has sought legal advice that puts this in question.  There is even a post here where the broker has stated the contract is void,  I doubt they would do that without having first gotten some legal advice,

We can all have our own thoughts, but it is not okay to criticize someone, renter or owner, who is doing things by the way they believe they should go,


----------



## CraigInPA

Bearval said:


> I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money.  It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It  will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding.   If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.



Not likely. The venue in most contracts is specified as the broker's locale. If you are a David's customer in Arizona, are you going to travel to Ontario to file in small claims court against a person in New York? And, it's unlikely small claims would accept your suit, because they have to provide service to the person being sued; I haven't see a small claims court that would accept international service requirements.


----------



## Dracula

Lewisc said:


> CFAR covers some, depending on when you cancel, of your non-refundable costs.  Rental contracts aren't valid if the property is closed.  Some posters don't agree but David's has said as much.   Contract isn't valid, the insured is entitled to a refund.  No reason for the insurance company to pay.  Assume the broker or member can't financially pay the insured.  That would be coverage for financial default which is frequently excluded outright, or sometimes included if the supplier is on a list.
> 
> Some policies might pay.  Some might not.  Travel policies list exactly what's covered.  I think many internet posters have an unrealistic expectation as to what is covered by travel insurance.


With all due respect to David, he cannot unilaterally determine that a contract is not valid.


----------



## CraigInPA

Bearval said:


> You just need one renter to win based upon the contract not being binding then others can use that as a precedent and a lien can be put on the property (your timeshare).



Precedent is based upon the jurisdiction. If someone wins in small claims court in California, it cannot be used as a precedent in Pennsylvania. If they won in the Supreme Court, they could.

In order to file a lien, you need to obtain a judgement. In this case, a renter would have to file against both the broker and owner.  If the broker's contract says the venue for litigation is in Canada, you won't get a lien against a property in Florida based upon a judgement in Canada.


----------



## CaliAdventurer

Krandor said:


> Are they refunding 100%?  including David's commission?


I'll report back as soon as I know!  I don't expect them to considering they did what they were paid to do- find a member and book etc. but with this scenario maybe they feel it more politic to do so.  We'll see!


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> With all due respect to David, he cannot unilaterally determine that a contract is not valid.



If he got legal advice and was told his contract with the renter was no longer enforceable, then I’d assume he wouldn’t be fighting it


The contract with the owner is different because most owners don’t believe their contract with him changes.  Many Renters, on the other hand,  do.


----------



## davper

tallguy001 said:


> This is not accurate. The renter never has points. The renter cannot make a reservation with the points. The contract is for the reservation, not the points. If the resort is closed the points revert to the owner. The renter has no way to use those points.


We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I can't do anything with those points without the renter dictating. Because my aagreement talks about renting points, not a reservation. Per my agreement I must make a reservation using the points rented. I must be available to make changes as the renter wants.


----------



## davper

tallguy001 said:


> Here‘s the rub. You made the change. The renter is not able to independently make this change on their own because they do not own the points.


Again, I make the change per the renter's request. I cannot make changes on those rented. points. This make the renter in control.


----------



## davper

CaliAdventurer said:


> I'll report back as soon as I know!  I don't expect them to considering they did what they were paid to do- find a member and book etc. but with this scenario maybe they feel it more politic to do so.  We'll see!



I can't see David's not refunding. How can they ask the member to refund and not refund their portion?


----------



## Krandor

davper said:


> I can't see David's not refunding. How can they ask the member to refund and not refund their portion?



I agree.  It seems to be it would be right for davids to keep their portion.  Their job was to get the renter a room.  They are unable to do so.


----------



## LAX

TheWheel said:


> Because they are the owner and cannot transfer the points, only offer the accommodations which they cannot provide. Using your restaurant analogy, if you made a reservation for a restaurant that required you pay in advance but upon arrival the restaurant is closed. Do they get to keep your money?



Your restaurant analogy would apply if someone made a prepaid reservation at a Disney resort through Disney directly & then Disney decides to keep the money despite of the closure. That's definitely not right.

However, my referenced analogy involves a third party. If I had purchased prepaid accommodation certificates from Disney and decided to offload them to someone at a discount. Then, the purchaser redeem those certificates at a later time for a reservation that Disney subsequently cannot honor because of closure. If Disney were to reimburse me for those now worthless certificates, I would definitely forward the proceeds to the person I had sold those certificates. However, if Disney decides to do nothing, should I still be responsible for the lost values from the redeemed, but not honored certificates even though they were good and valid at the time of initial transaction?

LAX


----------



## CanAdianDad

LAX said:


> Your restaurant analogy would apply if someone made a prepaid reservation at a Disney resort through Disney directly & then Disney decides to keep the money despite of the closure. That's definitely not right.
> 
> However, my referenced analogy involves a third party. If I had purchased prepaid accommodation certificates from Disney and decided to offload them to someone at a discount. Then, the purchaser redeem those certificates at a later time for a reservation that Disney subsequently cannot honor because of closure. If Disney were to reimburse me for those now worthless certificates, I would definitely forward the proceeds to the person I had sold those certificates. However, if Disney decides to do nothing, should I still be responsible for the lost values from the redeemed, but not honored certificates even though they were good and valid at the time of initial transaction?
> 
> LAX


As a deeded timeshare you are the owner of the property. You are not subleting something you rented, you are renting something you own. In your analogy I pay for the reservation at the restaurant in advance, you close the restaurant and then say


LAX said:


> Your restaurant analogy would apply if someone made a prepaid reservation at a Disney resort through Disney directly & then Disney decides to keep the money despite of the closure. That's definitely not right.
> 
> However, my referenced analogy involves a third party. If I had purchased prepaid accommodation certificates from Disney and decided to offload them to someone at a discount. Then, the purchaser redeem those certificates at a later time for a reservation that Disney subsequently cannot honor because of closure. If Disney were to reimburse me for those now worthless certificates, I would definitely forward the proceeds to the person I had sold those certificates. However, if Disney decides to do nothing, should I still be responsible for the lost values from the redeemed, but not honored certificates even though they were good and valid at the time of initial transaction?
> 
> LAX


we are not talking third party here, we are talking deeded owners


----------



## Sandisw

davper said:


> If Disney works with me, I can work with the Renter/David's
> 
> 
> Has David's forced you to return monies? Have they given you bad service? Don't understand why you won't use David's anymore when it seams for years they have done exactly what you have asked of them.
> 
> 
> The reservation IS changeable or cancel able by the renter, I have made several changes for the renter in the last few months. If I don't, I am in breach of the agreement. The renter can use those points however they see fit. If they want to reschedule, they can.
> 
> A DVC member cannot offer accomodations unless it is a reservation they already made. They are only offering points for which they agreed to be go between with Disney in making the reservation. This is in the agreement that I signed '_Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations_'. Points were rented from me, not a reservation.
> 
> 
> Because it has been posted on this board a couple of times that there is travel insurance that cover pandemic, If I don't purchase that coverage, then I am assuming the risk. Why shouldn't we ask the same of the renter?
> 
> Yes, I would have to pay the full freight if I don't have insurance. I am not asking Disney to break any rules. They were laid out when I purchased.
> 
> 
> 
> You won't see a change in DVC's agreement. They already have a clear policy.
> 
> 
> Members who went through a broker won't end up in small claims. The broker will. While you say it is of low cost, you aren't considering that you must file in the jurisdiction that the transaction took place. In the case of renting from David's, that is in Canada. Do they have a small claims court there. And the last time I looked, $2000 was the limit in my jurisdiction for small claims. Most paid more.
> 
> 
> The renter has control of points. I cannot do anything with those points or I will be in breach. David's cannot do anything with those points or they will be in breach. The party who has any control of those points and not be in breach is the renter. They direct the member on what to do with those rented points
> Yes the renter has a reservation in their name by using the points they rented. If the reservation gets canceled, they still have the points and can go at a later time provided the points they have acquired has not expired.
> My agreement say that a reservation is secured by using rented points. One side offered points for consideration the other side offered cash for consideration. Points are still available therefore the contract is not void.



I have a contract with David’s and it does not include I’m responsible for changing the reservation other  than adding DDP. If the renters want different dates, etc. they are out of luck.

So it is not accurate that you are required to change a reservation for a renter when dealing with this broker.


----------



## foreUT

Does David's promote a specific Travel Insurance company? With the new restrictions in Orange County, wouldn't the Travel Insurance be in effect now? Did David's receive a benefit/commission from the Insurance, which he can now use to help in the refunds to Renters?


----------



## LAX

CanAdianDad said:


> As a deeded timeshare you are the owner of the property. You are not subleting something you rented, you are renting something you own. In your analogy I pay for the reservation at the restaurant in advance, you close the restaurant and then say
> 
> we are not talking third party here, we are talking deeded owners



Ok. I am going to play along the best I can. Let's say I am the owner of a restaurant, but not the owner of the property that my restaurant operates out of. The landlord locks up the restaurant I run because of governmental regulation. I end up setting up shop 2 states away so that I can still honor the deeply discounted certificates I sold you. If you decide it's not worth the trip or you can't find time to make the trip before they expire, do you feel entitled to a refund?

I am surprised how some renters feel they can shift all of the risks associated with a timeshare reservation to the owners while reaping the benefits of deep discounts. Again, I am not advocating that renters should lose all of their money when the resorts are closed. However, the owners shouldn't have to eat all of their expiring points either.

LAX


----------



## ILovePixieDust

LAX said:


> Ok. I am going to play along the best I can. Let's say I am the owner of a restaurant, but not the owner of the property that my restaurant operates out of. The landlord locks up the restaurant I run because of governmental regulation. I end up setting up shop 2 states away so that I can still honor the deeply discounted certificates I sold you. If you decide it's not worth the trip or you can't find time to make the trip before they expire, do you feel entitled to a refund?
> 
> I am surprised how some renters feel they can shift all of the risks associated with a timeshare reservation to the owners while reaping the benefits of deep discounts. Again, I am not advocating that renters should lose all of their money when the resorts are closed. However, the owners shouldn't have to eat all of their expiring points either.
> 
> LAX



This makes it even easier to say, with your restaurant analogy moving states, you would definitely owe the customer a refund for those certificates seeing as they were bought for that restaurant at that location. Not for a restaurant 2 states away. You have changed the fundamental basis of the certificate.
It is tough for the DVC owners in this scenario.
But the contract, through David’s, specifies the exchange of money for a reservation during specific dates. Those dates cannot be changed by the renters. So if the reservation of the hotel cannot be provided during the specified dates by the deeded owner, I could see how the contract  specifications have not been met. The renters did not agree to a contract that said they would rent ANY week between say March to May or when the owners use year ends. They are for very specific dates. And if the service or product is not provided, during specified dates, then it makes sense that the contract is null and refunds should be given.

For example, as a landlord, I can’t take a month’s rent deposit for an apartment for someone to move in next month and keep that amount if that person is not able to move in because I couldn’t offer them the apartment in the end. Even if it was the city who shut down the building because it was unsafe for occupancy for example, as the owner I could not supply the goods which mean I would owe a refund.


----------



## TheWheel

LAX said:


> Ok. I am going to play along the best I can. Let's say I am the owner of a restaurant, but not the owner of the property that my restaurant operates out of. The landlord locks up the restaurant I run because of governmental regulation. I end up setting up shop 2 states away so that I can still honor the deeply discounted certificates I sold you. If you decide it's not worth the trip or you can't find time to make the trip before they expire, do you feel entitled to a refund?
> 
> I am surprised how some renters feel they can shift all of the risks associated with a timeshare reservation to the owners while reaping the benefits of deep discounts. Again, I am not advocating that renters should lose all of their money when the resorts are closed. However, the owners shouldn't have to eat all of their expiring points either.
> 
> LAX


100% I would a be entitled to a refund as you have described above.

I am surprised how some owners feel that they can shift all the risks associated with renting their timeshare and reap the benefits of having others help pay their dues etc. and think that not providing those people the agreed upon accommodations means they've fulfilled their obligations. Up until the time that the resort hotels closed (even after the parks already had) *all* the risk was with the renter, they still had the "option" to use their reservation for accommodations. Once the resorts closed (not by gov't regulation BTW, although it was the correct thing to do) all that risk flipped back to the owner. While its unfair that anyone, renter or owner has to take the burden of this, that's the way the contracts are written. If as a renter I had decided, or was unable to attend my reservation that's on me. As an owner not be able to provide what you offered to rent is on you.


----------



## McCrae

TheWheel said:


> 100% I would a be entitled to a refund as you have described above.
> 
> I am surprised how some owners feel that they can shift all the risks associated with renting their timeshare and reap the benefits of having others help pay their dues etc. and think that not providing those people the agreed upon accommodations means they've fulfilled their obligations. Up until the time that the resort hotels closed (even after the parks already had) *all* the risk was with the renter, they still had the "option" to use their reservation for accommodations. Once the resorts closed (not by gov't regulation BTW, although it was the correct thing to do) all that risk flipped back to the owner. While its unfair that anyone, renter or owner has to take the burden of this, that's the way the contracts are written. If as a renter I had decided, or was unable to attend my reservation that's on me. As an owner not be able to provide what you offered to rent is on you.



The points sold could be used for alternative accommodation through RCI and still have value. Whilst other options are available for use of the points it could be argued that the original owner of the point has completed any obligation. The points can be used for a holiday.


----------



## Cyberc1978

TheWheel said:


> 100% I would a be entitled to a refund as you have described above.
> 
> I am surprised how some owners feel that they can shift all the risks associated with renting their timeshare and reap the benefits of having others help pay their dues etc. and think that not providing those people the agreed upon accommodations means they've fulfilled their obligations. Up until the time that the resort hotels closed (even after the parks already had) *all* the risk was with the renter, they still had the "option" to use their reservation for accommodations. Once the resorts closed (not by gov't regulation BTW, although it was the correct thing to do) all that risk flipped back to the owner. While its unfair that anyone, renter or owner has to take the burden of this, that's the way the contracts are written. If as a renter I had decided, or was unable to attend my reservation that's on me. As an owner not be able to provide what you offered to rent is on you.



You make it sound as your statement is the actual truth and the only truth. I assume you have no legal background related to this? If i'm right then your statement is just as good as a "truth" as anyone else'.


----------



## TheWheel

McCrae said:


> The points sold could be used for alternative accommodation through RCI and still have value. Whilst other options are available for use of the points it could be argued that the original owner of the point has completed any obligation. The points can be used for a holiday.


Rental contract refund clause states "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival" not "Should points not be available on date of arrival"


----------



## Marionnette

TheWheel said:


> Rental contract refund clause states "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival" not "Should points not be available on date of arrival"


The exact text of the clause is

Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival *due to an action or omission by the Member, *including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX.XX US Dollars.​


----------



## tallguy001

1. Member agrees to use his Disney Vacation Club (DVC) points to provide a reservation for Renter at:
Resort : Room Type, with arrival on x/x/2020 and departure on x/x/2020.

No reservation,  no contract. Nothing about making points available for use via RCI. Cut and dried.


----------



## RNicole1

David’s posted this on FB this morning. I am very curious as to what this plan is.


----------



## Marionnette

tallguy001 said:


> 1. Member agrees to use his Disney Vacation Club (DVC) points to provide a reservation for Renter at:
> Resort : Room Type, with arrival on x/x/2020 and departure on x/x/2020.
> 
> No reservation,  no contract. Nothing about making points available for use via RCI. Cut and dried.


You cannot sell an RCI reservation. Well, people do it but if RCI learns about it, they will cancel the reservation.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Marionnette said:


> You cannot sell an RCI reservation. Well, people do it but if RCI learns about it, they will cancel the reservation.



Its not that I disagree however in this case things could be slightly different. You rented your points prior to moving them to RCI. When the points were in RCI the renter do not pay anything for them as they have already done so. 

When people normally rents a reservation they have already made the reservation on beforehand here that is not the case.


----------



## Cyberc1978

RNicole1 said:


> David’s posted this on FB this morning. I am very curious as to what this plan is.


I'm curious too, wonder what they mean by an action plan thats is fair to both owners and renters.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Cyberc1978 said:


> I'm curious too, wonder what they mean by an action plan thats is fair to both owners and renters.



I wonder if it’s a return of the 30% and David’s profit to renters for the time being, almost splitting it down the middle.


----------



## McCrae

tallguy001 said:


> 1. Member agrees to use his Disney Vacation Club (DVC) points to provide a reservation for Renter at:
> Resort : Room Type, with arrival on x/x/2020 and departure on x/x/2020.
> 
> No reservation,  no contract. Nothing about making points available for use via RCI. Cut and dried.


Reservation does exist. If the reservation is cancelled before check in date you may have a point but they are not. The obligation to provide a reservatipn has been completed. It doesn’t matter if a resort is or is not open. The owners obligation is not to do anything that may result in the reservation being cancelled, the owner has no obligation to provide accommodation.


----------



## Marionnette

DGsAtBLT said:


> I wonder if it’s a return of the 30% and David’s profit to renters for the time being, almost splitting it down the middle.


That’s not what I’m reading on another message board. David’s indicated (thru email to an owner) that given the renter requested a refund, they would be returning the 30% _and a portion of their fee _to the renter IF they are unable to re-rent that owner’s points. However, it appears that the owner is not obligated (at this time) to refund the 70% that they had collected at the time the reservation was secured.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

I just got an email. It’s a credit they will issue if the points are expiring and can not be used.


----------



## McCrae

DGsAtBLT said:


> I just got an email. It’s a credit they will issue if the points are expiring and can not be used.


Is the credit issued to the renter or owner?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

McCrae said:


> Is the credit issued to the renter or owner?



I am a renter, it’s a travel credit should the points not be able to be re rented.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> I am a renter, it’s a travel credit should the points not be able to be re rented.



Interesting.  I see this as an attempt to curb renters who file claims with CC for chargebacks, given the notion that this will continue longer,  

His travel credit would allow him , I assume, to simply have new owners book for the renter,  But, where does money come from? I assume that the original 30% is being held from the current owner as some of his emails to owners has suggested?

Maybe he figures holding those funds will help?


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> The exact text of the clause is
> 
> Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival *due to an action or omission by the Member, *including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX.XX US Dollars.​



I think right now the issue is more the renter and broker contract being void, not so much the owner and broker,

But, my owner contract does say I get 30% upon check in and as long as the resort is closed, there is no longer a check in day.  Therefore, I think there could be something there that prevents me from getting it, if you take the words at face value.

I realize the language you quoted was from the renters contract, to me, that could be used by David’s to enforce it.


----------



## Marionnette

Sandisw said:


> I think right now the issue is more the renter and broker contract being void, not so much the owner and broker,
> 
> But, my owner contract does say I get 30% upon check in and as long as the resort is closed, there is no longer a check in day.  Therefore, I think there could be something there that prevents me from getting it, if you take the words at face value.
> 
> I realize the language you quoted was from the renters contract, to me, that could be used by David’s to enforce it.


Actually, it was from the intermediary agreement that is between renter, David’s and the owner. The language in the owner’s agreement with just David’s is different.


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> Actually, it was from the intermediary agreement that is between renter, David’s and the owner. The language in the owner’s agreement with just David’s is different.



My mistake about that aspect,  But the rest is accurate in terms of what my contract directly with him is,

That clause is really about the renter,  I was talking about him having the right to keep the 30%.  Since I agreed to those terms, I believe I am on the hook for that if the resort is closed because  it says “at time of check in.”


----------



## Marionnette

Sandisw said:


> My mistake about that aspect,  But the rest is accurate in terms of what my contract directly with him is,
> 
> That clause is really about the renter,  I was talking about him having the right to keep the 30%.  Since I agreed to those terms, I believe I am on the hook for that if the resort is closed because  it says “at time of check in.”


I’ll leave the legal interpretation to those with law degrees. Lacking any concrete language that defines what happens when actions occur outside of the control of both renter and owner, the onus appears to fall on the party that drafted the agreement(s).

Whether you’re on the hook for 0%, 30% or 100% of what David’s collected on your behalf continues to be debatable.


----------



## Miffy

This thread has convinced me of two things: (1) Never rent points. (2) If I should purchase DVC in the future, never rent my points.


----------



## momincolorado

I think the travel credit idea is precisely to curb cc chargebacks! But the question is, how much will the travel credit be worth if David's goes bankrupt? How difficult will it be to rebook the renters? The renters will have expiring tickets or APs (yes, I know disney will extend APs for the parks' closure duration) so you would need to fit that resort reservation within that window.


----------



## tallguy001

Seems like a desperate ponzi scheme to me. Rob Peter to pay Paul. Not sustainable. Take the $ back and not the credit if you are in this situation. The math will not add up.


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> I’ll leave the legal interpretation to those with law degrees. Lacking any concrete language that defines what happens when actions occur outside of the control of both renter and owner, the onus appears to fall on the party that drafted the agreement(s).
> 
> Whether you’re on the hook for 0%, 30% or 100% of what David’s collected on your behalf continues to be debatable.



It’s why I used the word I would be on the hook, not owners on the hook because it is how I interpret the contract I agreed to, 

Yes, it’s on David’s, but if they determine they have a right to hold it back...and since reports are they are and I can’t believe they didn’t seek legal advice before doing that...an owner is out of luck, regardless of their own interpretation without filing a suit to get it.


----------



## McCrae

i wonder how many people are impacted by this and what the total value we are talking about?


----------



## tallguy001

McCrae said:


> i wonder how many people are impacted by this and what the total value we are talking about?



‘Good question. Seems like David is, to be generous, struggling with this batch of closures. The shoe is going to drop soon on another closure of a minimum of 9 days (based on local curfews).


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> i wonder how many people are impacted by this and what the total value we are talking about?



I wonder too,  April is a big Spring break time.  I think they are assuming that most of those are in jeopardy so it was a good proactive way to get a jump on this before it’s officially announced,

Less angry renters,  I would love to know from owners who this impacts to see if there is a change in the release of 30% if an owner can’t or won’t reschedule or rent the points again.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> I wonder too,  April is a big Spring break time.  I think they are assuming that most of those are in jeopardy so it was a good proactive way to get a jump on this before it’s officially announced,
> 
> Less angry renters,  I would love to know from owners who this impacts to see if there is a change in the release of 30% if an owner can’t or won’t reschedule or rent the points again.



I am an owner with a reservation due over Easter. My thoughts are to offer to rebook or offer a return of the final payment due at check in. Although I don’t think I am obligated to, I would like to help if I can.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> I am an owner with a reservation due over Easter. My thoughts are to offer to rebook or offer a return of the final payment due at check in. Although I don’t think I am obligated to, I would like to help if I can.



Keep us posted to what his solution in all of this is for you as an owners,  I have read elsewhere that owners have been told they are not getting the 30% and then being asked to either send back the 70% or offer the points for rental again.

So, given this new option to renters, I wonder what the stance will be nowGranted , he has no way of doing anything other than not releasing the 30%..which is going to cause an issue of trust with owners down the road


----------



## Dracula

davper said:


> I can't see David's not refunding. How can they ask the member to refund and not refund their portion?


Because he may have used those proceeds to pay his staff?
Would be surprised if David is not, at this very moment, dipping into the 30% payments retained for owners to compensate renters. Would that make his business a pyramid scheme?


----------



## MICKIMINI

Dracula said:


> Because he may have used those proceed to pay his staff?
> Would be surprised if David is not, at this very moment, dipping into the 30% payments retained for owners to compensate renters. Would that make his business a pyramid scheme?


Like the 30% In am expecting from my October and January rentals?  I would say most likely.  I'm just sick about even having pending rentals coming up and there is nothing I can do as an owner except wait and see...I can't refund even if it would make _me_ feel better.


----------



## tallguy001

Guessing most of this will be figured out by a bankruptcy trustee. Long-term resort closures are the one thing he never counted on in putting together these contracts. He is in trouble from both sides. The upcoming second wave of closures will be brutal for him.

This then puts into doubt any future contracts, when everything is back up and running, where he is unable to pay the 30% to owners upon check-in.


----------



## Dracula

MICKIMINI said:


> Like the 30% In am expecting from my October and January rentals?  I would say most likely.  I'm just sick about even having pending rentals coming up and there is nothing I can do as an owner except wait and see...I can't refund even if it would make _me_ feel better.


So, assume hypothetically that you do not get the 30% for the first rental in October. At this point David's is in default, and all your other contracts with him should be reviewed. Would you consider taking any action for the January rentals to limit your losses there? After all, the January renter should have the option to charge back


----------



## MICKIMINI

Oh dear, I just don't want the conflict as I _paid_ the broker so I would not have any.  Not getting paid for October would certainly give me leverage for January, so I believe I could collect the 30%.  Now as far as January goes, there is _no _leverage as I won't be renting points again. so nothing in the pipeline.  I have supplied six rentals in the past year, so not paying me 30% for January would be biting the hand that feeds him.  That said, if that is all I lose out of this mess, oh well it would be totally unfair but we don't need the balance to eat, but it won't be without a diplomatic phone call with the broker personally.  I would also make a phone call to the renter after check in so they know what is going on - I would expect a call if it were me and no I would not ask for anything financially.


----------



## Lewisc

Dracula said:


> With all due respect to David, he cannot unilaterally determine that a contract is not valid.


David's, presumably with the assistance of counsel, drafted the agreement.  As such I give David's interpretation, as well as common sense reading of the context, a lot more credibility then random, anonymous, posters on an internet forum.

Regardless renters will undoubtedly first be seeking resolution from David's. Assuming David's wants to stay in business they'll have to work with owners subject to the limitations of their contracts.  David's concern is how many members rented expiring points and what action, if any, Disney will be taking to assist owners with expiring points.


----------



## RNicole1

The latest update:


----------



## tallguy001

RNicole1 said:


> The latest update:



“We have no plan but desperately need to post something and stop the bleeding. We surely have no way to make this math work with a finite # of DVC points available. We haven’t even written the plan yet because it is impossible to pull off. We’ll reach out in several days/months with maybe something. Terms and conditions will apply meaning you can only book Saratoga Springs standard rooms during the 2 weeks after New Years. Thanks for not suing us!   Love, David”


----------



## CraigInPA

Lewisc said:


> David's, presumably with the assistance of counsel, drafted the agreement.  As such I give David's interpretation, as well as common sense reading of the context, a lot more credibility then random, anonymous, posters on an internet forum.



If David used an attorney to draft that contract, I'd be VERY surprised. It's clear that Force Majeure is vital part of the contract, and it's missing. History has previous closures of DVC resorts through Hurricanes, so it's not a surprise that a resort could close. If he actually did use an attorney, he may be able to sue the attorney for errors and omissions. Attorneys (at least here in Pennsylvania) have to have an error and omissions policy in order to practice. Allow it to lapse, and you'll be in front of the local bar facing disciplinary action.


----------



## CraigInPA

Dracula said:


> Because he may have used those proceeds to pay his staff?
> Would be surprised if David is not, at this very moment, dipping into the 30% payments retained for owners to compensate renters. Would that make his business a pyramid scheme?



Not a pyramid scheme, but clearly a desperate measure which relies upon future income to pay debts from today. A lot of businesses operate this way, relying upon their creditors to practice forbearance in getting paid in a timely manner. The challenge here is that such a scheme will require David's to earmark a portion of future proceeds to clean up the accumulated liability of this, which may jeopardize his ability to pay staff and other bills. The other issue here is that it relies upon DVC members to believe that he is financially solvent and that future rentals will be paid on time and in full. If that confidence is broken, the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

tallguy001 said:


> “We have no plan but desperately need to post something and stop the bleeding. We surely have no way to make this math work with a finite # of DVC points available. We haven’t even written the plan yet because it is impossible to pull off. We’ll reach out in several days/months with maybe something. Terms and conditions will apply meaning you can only book Saratoga Springs standard rooms during the 2 weeks after New Years. Thanks for not suing us!   Love, David”



Lots of people seem quite happy with that in the comments. Better for those of us who aren’t I guess.


----------



## tallguy001

DGsAtBLT said:


> Lots of people seem quite happy with that in the comments. Better for those of us who aren’t I guess.



I’ve noticed that as well. I doubt they realize the difficult threading of the needle any plan like this would take or the realities of the points system. DVC can’t create points of out midair. David is looking for some breathing room. The post seems to have calmed people down, but the underlying issues still remain.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

tallguy001 said:


> I’ve noticed that as well. I doubt they realize the difficult threading of the needle any plan like this would take or the realities of the points system. DVC can’t create points of out midair. David is looking for some breathing room. The post seems to have calmed people down, but the underlying issues still remain.



Likely a product of many renters not understanding the finer details of DVC or the elephant in the room, the unknown future of the rental companies in general.


----------



## RNicole1

So this is our first time ever renting points and I have no experience with DVC. What does this mean?


We are prepared to issue those that were impacted by the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals. This Travel Credit will be the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received. As this Credit is in its infancy and we are working with several facets of our business, we do not have all of the details to provide to you today.


----------



## Marionnette

RNicole1 said:


> So this is our first time ever renting points and I have no experience with DVC. What does this mean?
> 
> 
> We are prepared to issue those that were impacted by the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals. This Travel Credit will be the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received. As this Credit is in its infancy and we are working with several facets of our business, we do not have all of the details to provide to you today.


It means “We’re going to throw a bone to all of the irate renters in the hopes that it will quiet them while we figure out how we’re going to handle this kerfuffle.”

But it sounds as if, in order to placate renters, David’s is going to offer a DVC by Request credit equal to the amount that the renter paid for their reservation but anything you have already gotten in the form of a refund will be subtracted from that credit. The renter can then use that credit toward a future rental. IOW, there will be no cash refunds for reservations that were (or will be) canceled due to COVID-19.

Herein lies the rub:

David’s has raised his rates since then time when a lot of renters made their reservation. Up $1 per point. For a 100-point reservation, that’s an additional $100 for the renter to pony up for the same number of points.
DVC has changed their points charts for 2021. There are now more “seasons” with some times of the year requiring more points per night than the same villa took in 2020. You may need more points for the same nights in 2020. There’s also a possibility that you may need fewer points but don’t expect to get cash back for unused points.
Like always, the ability to book your desired resort for the dates that you want is going to depend on availability and owners who supply points for rental. Owners are going to have to feel comfortable with using David’s in the future. That’s a huge question mark. No owners = no points.
Credits may have an expiration date. I would be surprised if they didn’t. Just like the airlines when you cancel a ticket, you will have a deadline to use it or lose it. You may have to travel at inconvenient times in order to use that credit.


----------



## MICKIMINI

Who knows what it means?  Everything they publish, including contracts seems to be up to interpretation.


----------



## tallguy001

RNicole1 said:


> So this is our first time ever renting points and I have no experience with DVC. What does this mean?



Only David’s can answer what this plan entails. If it were me, I would get my money back and book later. David’s model of business could be on shaky ground after these unfortunate events. I have no inside information.


----------



## fsjking

Dracula said:


> So, assume hypothetically that you do not get the 30% for the first rental in October. At this point David's is in default, and all your other contracts with him should be reviewed. Would you consider taking any action for the January rentals to limit your losses there? After all, the January renter should have the option to charge back



You cannot do that. The contracts are all separate. You will be in violation of any contract you do not fully honor and would have to do a full refund on those. You would have to sue for that 30%, but there's owners who feel that it's not worth going to court over a few thousand dollars. While you may not have to worry about David's doing anything to you about you not honoring the later contracts, a bankruptcy court could very likely expect you to. It's a bad spot to be in because you'd have to honor that contract knowing you probably aren't getting your 30% on that one either.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> You cannot do that. The contracts are all separate. You will be in violation of any contract you do not fully honor and would have to do a full refund on those. You would have to sue for that 30%, but there's owners who feel that it's not worth going to court over a few thousand dollars. While you may not have to worry about David's doing anything to you about you not honoring the later contracts, a bankruptcy court could very likely expect you to. It's a bad spot to be in because you'd have to honor that contract knowing you probably aren't getting your 30% on that one either.



I am already planning to lose out on my 30% even if the resort is up and running.  I just don’t believe that the money will be there to pay me,

Since I got the 70% and it’s enough to cover what I wanted the funds to cover, I won’t be fighting to get it if the company isn’t in business by then,

I also decided I will allow the renter to have the reservation even though I am not getting my full payment  This is more so because I’m not confident that returning funds to the broker would make it to the renter,


----------



## Nennie

fsjking said:


> You cannot do that. The contracts are all separate. You will be in violation of any contract you do not fully honor and would have to do a full refund on those. You would have to sue for that 30%, but there's owners who feel that it's not worth going to court over a few thousand dollars. While you may not have to worry about David's doing anything to you about you not honoring the later contracts, a bankruptcy court could very likely expect you to. It's a bad spot to be in because you'd have to honor that contract knowing you probably aren't getting your 30% on that one either.



It would actually be an anticipatory breach of contract.  If David's doesn't pay on the first contract, the owner can assume he won't pay on the 2nd contract and demand payment now, or else seek to mitigate damages by cancelling the reservation, perhaps even reaching out to the renter and asking for direct payment of the 30%, etc.


----------



## tallguy001

Sandisw said:


> I also decided I will allow the renter to have the reservation even though I am not getting my full payment  This is more so because I’m not confident that returning funds to the broker would make it to the renter,



This raises an excellent “Phase 2 issue.” If/when they are out of business, there are hundreds of reservations that will come up once the resorts open. If insolvent, the owner will not get the final 30% but the renter will have paid 100%.


----------



## fsjking

Nennie said:


> It would actually be an anticipatory breach of contract.  If David's doesn't pay on the first contract, the owner can assume he won't pay on the 2nd contract and demand payment now, or else seek to mitigate damages by cancelling the reservation, perhaps even reaching out to the renter and asking for direct payment of the 30%, etc.



It's a three party contract where each contract involves a different 3rd party, and one party has fully completed their requirement. It's not just David's you have a contract with.

Also, reaching out to the renter to ask for more money would be extortion.


----------



## Sandisw

Nennie said:


> It would actually be an anticipatory breach of contract.  If David's doesn't pay on the first contract, the owner can assume he won't pay on the 2nd contract and demand payment now, or else seek to mitigate damages by cancelling the reservation, perhaps even reaching out to the renter and asking for direct payment of the 30%, etc.



But, an owner would have to return the funds received if they cancel the reservation. You couldn’t recover the 30% feom the renter because they paid in full already to the broker,

So, an owner cancels, sends back the money, but I cant believe they can cancel a second contract and keep the funds as a way to recoup money not paid on a different one.  Are toy saying they could?


----------



## Krandor

tallguy001 said:


> This raises an excellent “Phase 2 issue.” If/when they are out of business, there are hundreds of reservations that will come up once the resorts open. If insolvent, the owner will not get the final 30% but the renter will have paid 100%.



It is even worse if they are out of business.  There is nobody to enforce the contracts anymore.   Both members and renters can potentially be screwed.


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> It is even worse if they are out of business.  There is nobody to enforce the contracts anymore.   Both members and renters can potentially be screwed.



Yup.  That is why, even though my rental isn’t until August, I have decided to assume they won’t be, I won’t get paid, and that I won’t leave a renter in the lurch without a reservation.


----------



## Nennie

Sandisw said:


> But, an owner would have to return the funds received if they cancel the reservation. You couldn’t recover the 30% feom the renter because they paid in full already to the broker,
> 
> So, an owner cancels, sends back the money, but I cant believe they can cancel a second contract and keep the funds as a way to recoup money not paid on a different one.  Are toy saying they could?



Yes, the owner would have to send back the portion of the $$ the owner received, but could go ahead and cancel the reservation and rent the points to someone else, or use the points themselves.  Again, this is only in a case where the owner has good cause to believe that David's won't honor the contract and won't pay the 30% owed at the time of check in.  If you have good cause that a party is going to breach the contract, you can act now to mitigate your damages.  It's known as anticipatory breach of contract or repudiation.


----------



## Sandisw

Nennie said:


> Yes, the owner would have to send back the portion of the $$ the owner received, but could go ahead and cancel the reservation and rent the points to someone else, or use the points themselves.  Again, this is only in a case where the owner has good cause to believe that David's won't honor the contract and won't pay the 30% owed at the time of check in.  If you have good cause that a party is going to breach the contract, you can act now to mitigate your damages.  It's known as anticipatory breach of contract or repudiation.



Got it! That makes sense!


----------



## fsjking

Krandor said:


> It is even worse if they are out of business.  There is nobody to enforce the contracts anymore.   Both members and renters can potentially be screwed.



Well.... There's been owners who made it clear that they won't be screwed. They'll cancel the reservation and resell or use the points.


----------



## Nennie

fsjking said:


> It's a three party contract where each contract involves a different 3rd party, and one party has fully completed their requirement. It's not just David's you have a contract with.
> 
> Also, reaching out to the renter to ask for more money would be extortion.



Not extortion at all.  This is only in the case where owner has good cause to believe that David's won't honor contract.  Owner can cancel reservation, sell it to someone else, ask renter to make up the difference from David's, etc.  Owner does have to return the funds it received though, but other than that can do whatever it wants to make itself whole or mitigate the damages.


----------



## Krandor

fsjking said:


> Well.... There's been owners who made it clear that they won't be screwed. They'll cancel the reservation and resell or use the points.



I think you would see a lot of that is David's goes out of business.   No owner would be getting their 30% at that point.  Some would keep the reservations and do the right thing and some would cancel.  It would be a complete mess.


----------



## MICKIMINI

fsjking said:


> You cannot do that. The contracts are all separate. You will be in violation of any contract you do not fully honor and would have to do a full refund on those. You would have to sue for that 30%, but there's owners who feel that it's not worth going to court over a few thousand dollars. While you may not have to worry about David's doing anything to you about you not honoring the later contracts, a bankruptcy court could very likely expect you to. It's a bad spot to be in because you'd have to honor that contract knowing you probably aren't getting your 30% on that one either.


I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.  No, I'm not going to pull the rug out from anyone.  Because I have a second renter, the broker needs to keep me "happy", right?  On the second rental, well I have no leverage.  I also indicated that if I have to, I will take a hit on the 30%.  Please read my post again - maybe I was not articulate, but I have always been a good negotiator and expect that a phone call, if needed would at least get October paid in full.  Sorry again if my post was unclear.


----------



## MICKIMINI

Sandisw said:


> I am already planning to lose out on my 30% even if the resort is up and running.  I just don’t believe that the money will be there to pay me,
> 
> Since I got the 70% and it’s enough to cover what I wanted the funds to cover, I won’t be fighting to get it if the company isn’t in business by then,
> 
> I also decided I will allow the renter to have the reservation even though I am not getting my full payment  This is more so because I’m not confident that returning funds to the broker would make it to the renter,


Please _reread_ my post.  I am willing to give up the 30%.  Apparently I am not articulate - sorry!


----------



## fsjking

Nennie said:


> Not extortion at all.  This is only in the case where owner has good cause to believe that David's won't honor contract.  Owner can cancel reservation, sell it to someone else, ask renter to make up the difference from David's, etc.  Owner does have to return the funds it received though, but other than that can do whatever it wants to make itself whole or mitigate the damages.


*extortion*
*Pronunciation /ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/ /ɪkˈstɔrʃ(ə)n/ 
NOUN*


The practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

You can call David's and say you want paid what the contract stipulates. You cannot contact the renter and ask for more. You are threatening to cancel their reservation if they don't pay more than the contract that you signed agreed to. It's extortion. Period.



MICKIMINI said:


> I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.  No, I'm not going to pull the rug out from anyone.  Because I have a second renter, the broker needs to keep me "happy", right?  On the second rental, well I have no leverage.  I also indicated that if I have to, I will take a hit on the 30%.  Please read my post again - maybe I was not articulate, but I have always been a good negotiator and expect that a phone call, if needed would at least get October paid in full.  Sorry again if my post was unclear.



My reply was to the person that replied to you about reviewing the later contracts and using them to get payment for the earlier contract. My comments really had nothing to with what you are planning.


----------



## MICKIMINI

fsjking said:


> *extortion*
> *Pronunciation /ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/ /ɪkˈstɔrʃ(ə)n/
> NOUN*
> 
> 
> The practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
> 
> You can call David's and say you want paid what the contract stipulates. You cannot contact the renter and ask for more. You are threatening to cancel their reservation if they don't pay more than the contract that you signed agreed to. It's extortion. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> My reply was to the person that replied to you about reviewing the later contracts and using them to get payment for the earlier contract. My comments really had nothing to with what you are planning.


Thanks for clarifying...I'm getting sensitive and stressed out and ready to GIVE away all my points in anticipation of any rentals I was possibly thinking about, maybe sometime in the future...no for free, no I'll pay them...just take me out of this situation please - sigh...!


----------



## fsjking

MICKIMINI said:


> Thanks for clarifying...I'm getting sensitive and stressed out and ready to GIVE away all my points in anticipation of any rentals I was possibly thinking about, maybe sometime in the future...no for free, no I'll pay them...just take me out of this situation please - sigh...!



Don't stress yourself out. This whole thing is a bad deal on many levels. This DVC stuff is the least of our worries right now.


----------



## MICKIMINI

So true.  My son and nephew are face to face with patients every day 

EDIT:  I need a diversion and since the gym is closed and I have cleaned all the baseboards...


----------



## Sandisw

MICKIMINI said:


> Please _reread_ my post.  I am willing to give up the 30%.  Apparently I am not articulate - sorry!



My post wasn’t in response to you. It was in response to someone else! I didn’t take your post as not following through.  It was clear to me,

I think we all have quarantine brain and are getting everyone mixed up!Lol


----------



## Jetku

This is all unfortunate because we just passed ROFR with about 200 points (mostly banked) on 2020 UY that we planned to rent out to offset the cost.

Sorry if I don’t understand all the dynamics here - is timeshare store in a similar quandary or is it just David’s for some reason?

David’s is who I planned to use, but obviously now am unsure of what we will do.


----------



## Sandisw

Jetku said:


> This is all unfortunate because we just passed ROFR with about 200 points (mostly banked) on 2020 UY that we planned to rent out to offset the cost.
> 
> Sorry if I don’t understand all the dynamics here - is timeshare store in a similar quandary or is it just David’s for some reason?
> 
> David’s is who I planned to use, but obviously now am unsure of what we will do.



Good question. I don’t know about the wording of that contract and whether it has a clause about things like resort closure.

The issue here is that this brokers contracts do not. So, none of the three party’s involved were the ones who closed the resort.

Whatever you decide to do, I think we have all learned that any contract needs to include this so all parties are clear as to the remedy should it happen again.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Jetku said:


> This is all unfortunate because we just passed ROFR with about 200 points (mostly banked) on 2020 UY that we planned to rent out to offset the cost.
> 
> Sorry if I don’t understand all the dynamics here - is timeshare store in a similar quandary or is it just David’s for some reason?
> 
> David’s is who I planned to use, but obviously now am unsure of what we will do.


Everyone who is acting as a broker is in a similar position.  The Timeshare Store is acting as a broker if they are finding you a renter to rent your points and they pay you.


----------



## MICKIMINI

You can make one "transfer" to another member per year - but you have to find the member and arrange the transaction.  You can "gift" a reservation or reservations - a great wedding gift, etc. if timing works out!  I believe you can also put it toward RCI.  It's not what you expected but if you get creative you might salvage some value!


----------



## Dracula

fsjking said:


> *extortion*
> *Pronunciation /ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/ /ɪkˈstɔrʃ(ə)n/
> NOUN*
> 
> 
> The practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
> 
> You can call David's and say you want paid what the contract stipulates. You cannot contact the renter and ask for more. You are threatening to cancel their reservation if they don't pay more than the contract that you signed agreed to. It's extortion. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> My reply was to the person that replied to you about reviewing the later contracts and using them to get payment for the earlier contract. My comments really had nothing to with what you are planning.


When a landlord asks for overdue rent to be paid under threat of eviction, I would not think this is extortion. In this particular case, assuming David's defaults on the first rental contract, I can see how one can think that all subsequent renters are not to blame, and I would really like for them to continue on with their vacations. At the same time, once David's is in default on one contract, he is likely to default on all contracts; if the owner cancels the reservations and informs the renter, the renter then has a choice to pursue credit card chargeback against David's to recover their money, and may choose to rent again; following this, David's or its creditors would follow up with the owner to recover their payment, minus of course the 30% from the first rental contract. I understand this is complicated, but would not think all owners are ready to assume thousands of dollars in losses due to David's default.

In a recent bankruptcy last week of OTA bookit.com, many guests were asked to pay their bills upon resort check-out, after they have already prepaid on bookit. Would they have not paid that, the resorts threatened to call the police and get them arrested. This does not count as extortion, since the resort / owner simply asked for the delivered services to be paid for, once the intermediary / bookit defaulted.

In another twist, it's well known that once you default on a credit card or loan, other credit cards with the same bank would be closed, or start charging punishing interest rates. But also, other banks may cancel credit cards even with those banks you made all payments in full. This brings the question, should an owner even wait for David's to default on the first rental agreement, or can it be assumed that a reported default on any rental agreement means David's would now be in default on all other agreements? I guess each owner would decide for themselves - some may choose to save the hassle and let the reservations go through, others may reach out to renters, yet others may outright cancel. Hopefully David's does not default and this is all moot.


----------



## KingRichard

Question? 

How many reservations do you think David's made in the 30 days this has/will last?

How many of those will lose points that have expired?

I like David's and have used them 3 times and have more points to rent out before this happened. 

David's is popular, but how big is it?  

If Disney does give back points(not expired), then I think most people will want to work with David's to rent them out again. You didn't need them in the first place and as time goes by they become less valuable. 

I just wonder if we are making more out of this then what is really going on? I figured that we will lose the 30% on less then 200 points for May and we can live with that. 

I don't know? Maybe David's has rented 100,00 points and 20% will expire? *I sure hope not! *


----------



## CraigInPA

Dracula said:


> This brings the question, should an owner even wait for David's to default on the first rental agreement, or can it be assumed that a reported default on any rental agreement means David's would now be in default on all other agreements?



If you are in this situation, and paranoid about losing the 30%, I suggest you call David's and have a discussion with them to ensure you will get paid. I would not preemptively cancel a reservation, and pay back the amount you've received, based solely upon something you read on the Internet about the company not paying.


----------



## Sandisw

KingRichard said:


> Question?
> 
> How many reservations do you think David's made in the 30 days this has/will last?
> 
> How many of those will lose points that have expired?
> 
> I like David's and have used them 3 times and have more points to rent out before this happened.
> 
> David's is popular, but how big is it?
> 
> If Disney does give back points(not expired), then I think most people will want to work with David's to rent them out again. You didn't need them in the first place and as time goes by they become less valuable.
> 
> I just wonder if we are making more out of this then what is really going on? I figured that we will lose the 30% on less then 200 points for May and we can live with that.
> 
> I don't know? Maybe David's has rented 100,00 points and 20% will expire? *I sure hope not! *



Someone mentioned he has 40 employees.  A company that big has to have a strong customer base with lots of rentals.

Plus, IMO, if he is holding back the 30% for those during the 2 weeks closure...which is what is being reported.. it has to be more than he can absorb.

I think it’s a substantial amount which is why his first stance was to try and get as many renters rescheduled that was possible, before he had to take steps that would upset both renters and owners.


----------



## RaymOOOnd

David's is free to stick to their strict cancellation policy without making concessions.
But I think this will make many-a-person think twice about using them again.
For that reason, if I were them, I'd be trying my hardest to find some structured way of working with the members, trying to reschedule those that can be rescheduled, etc. The "not my problem" approach wouldn't inspire confidence.


----------



## Sandisw

RaymOOOnd said:


> David's is free to stick to their strict cancellation policy without making concessions.
> But I think this will make many-a-person think twice about using them again.
> For that reason, if I were them, I'd be trying my hardest to find some structured way of working with the members, trying to reschedule those that can be rescheduled, etc. The "not my problem" approach wouldn't inspire confidence.



Or, he has sought legal advice that has lead him to create the solutions he has?


----------



## fsjking

Dracula said:


> When a landlord asks for overdue rent to be paid under threat of eviction, I would not think this is extortion. In this particular case, assuming David's defaults on the first rental contract, I can see how one can think that all subsequent renters are not to blame, and I would really like for them to continue on with their vacations. At the same time, once David's is in default on one contract, he is likely to default on all contracts; if the owner cancels the reservations and informs the renter, the renter then has a choice to pursue credit card chargeback against David's to recover their money, and may choose to rent again; following this, David's or its creditors would follow up with the owner to recover their payment, minus of course the 30% from the first rental contract. I understand this is complicated, but would not think all owners are ready to assume thousands of dollars in losses due to David's default.
> 
> In a recent bankruptcy last week of OTA bookit.com, many guests were asked to pay their bills upon resort check-out, after they have already prepaid on bookit. Would they have not paid that, the resorts threatened to call the police and get them arrested. This does not count as extortion, since the resort / owner simply asked for the delivered services to be paid for, once the intermediary / bookit defaulted.
> 
> In another twist, it's well known that once you default on a credit card or loan, other credit cards with the same bank would be closed, or start charging punishing interest rates. But also, other banks may cancel credit cards even with those banks you made all payments in full. This brings the question, should an owner even wait for David's to default on the first rental agreement, or can it be assumed that a reported default on any rental agreement means David's would now be in default on all other agreements? I guess each owner would decide for themselves - some may choose to save the hassle and let the reservations go through, others may reach out to renters, yet others may outright cancel. Hopefully David's does not default and this is all moot.



The landlord example is not the same. You are behind on payments you contracted to make. A comparable example would be you made your on time $1000 rent payment then the landlord says that you have to pay another $300 or he's going to evict you immediately. He can't legally do that. 

I think the resorts in the bookit situation would have probably lost in court if they had guests arrested. Even making that threat is sketchy. They would have had an obligation to inform the guest prior to check in. If they did and the guest still stayed, then that's on the guest. While I agree they are similar situations, there is some differences as the resorts did not receive any payment, where the DVC owners have received 70%. In this case, the DVC owner could choose to cancel the reservation, send the money back to David's and then inform the guest of the cancellation. They cannot, however, call and ask for more money under the threat of cancellation. There's a difference there. 

The credit card industry has long been full of double standards and dubious practices. You might as well cite examples of loan sharks and mob bosses. We all use them, but they will screw you over and get away with it every time. 

One thing to remember in all of this is the renter did nothing wrong and paid up front. There is nothing they can do to screw you over in regards to this. Any issue you have is with the intermediary and you should pursue your issues with them. Calling them up and saying you expect to be paid for previous rentals and may consider cancelling further rentals has a much stronger legal standing than calling the renter who had nothing to do with you not getting paid on someone else's reservation. 




RaymOOOnd said:


> David's is free to stick to their strict cancellation policy without making concessions.
> But I think this will make many-a-person think twice about using them again.
> For that reason, if I were them, I'd be trying my hardest to find some structured way of working with the members, trying to reschedule those that can be rescheduled, etc. The "not my problem" approach wouldn't inspire confidence.



That's all assuming that they aren't just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. They may know they are done in this industry and are just trying to find a way not to end up personally bankrupt. You have to remember, they really didn't do anything wrong here other than having a contract that didn't consider resort closures and not setting up escrow accounts to make sure the money was protected. They are probably dealing with chargebacks they have no say in and owners refusing to work with them. I can sympathize with their situation. They are going to lose in this no matter what.


----------



## Dracula

CraigInPA said:


> If you are in this situation, and paranoid about losing the 30%, I suggest you call David's and have a discussion with them to ensure you will get paid. I would not preemptively cancel a reservation, and pay back the amount you've received, based solely upon something you read on the Internet about the company not paying.


Thank you for the advice - not feeling paranoid about this issue, just trying to think one step ahead, when other people lose their lifetime savings in their 401ks, I am sure many owners would be fine missing out on a few rental dollars. Everyone would need to make sacrifices here, and few would go out unscathed. 
I am yet to see reports of owners not getting paid the 30%, and would rather not call as I am sure their inbox is full, and the website specifically asks owners to wait to be contacted. Hopefully the DVC resorts all open on April 1st and David's will remain an ongoing concern - but the odds of that are not looking good. At this point, I would expect the resorts to stay closed through May 15th (~8 weeks, similar to China), and David's to be in a cash-constrained position by April 15th - but, as a famous president said, it is just my hunch.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Thank you for the advice - not feeling paranoid about this issue, just trying to think one step ahead, when other people lose their lifetime savings in their 401ks, I am sure many owners would be fine missing out on a few rental dollars. Everyone would need to make sacrifices here, and few would go out unscathed.
> I am yet to see reports of owners not getting paid the 30%, and would rather not call as I am sure their inbox is full, and the website specifically asks owners to wait to be contacted. Hopefully the DVC resorts all open on April 1st and David's will remain an ongoing concern - but the odds of that are not looking good. At this point, I would expect the resorts to stay closed through May 15th (~8 weeks, similar to China), and David's to be in a cash-constrained position by April 15th - but, as a famous president said, it is just my hunch.



There are confirmed posts elsewhere that owners have indeed been told they are not getting it for the reservations that were to check in during the closure


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## davper

Dracula said:


> Because he may have used those proceeds to pay his staff?
> Would be surprised if David is not, at this very moment, dipping into the 30% payments retained for owners to compensate renters. Would that make his business a pyramid scheme?





tallguy001 said:


> Guessing most of this will be figured out by a bankruptcy trustee. Long-term resort closures are the one thing he never counted on in putting together these contracts. He is in trouble from both sides. The upcoming second wave of closures will be brutal for him.
> 
> This then puts into doubt any future contracts, when everything is back up and running, where he is unable to pay the 30% to owners upon check-in.





CraigInPA said:


> Not a pyramid scheme, but clearly a desperate measure which relies upon future income to pay debts from today. A lot of businesses operate this way, relying upon their creditors to practice forbearance in getting paid in a timely manner. The challenge here is that such a scheme will require David's to earmark a portion of future proceeds to clean up the accumulated liability of this, which may jeopardize his ability to pay staff and other bills. The other issue here is that it relies upon DVC members to believe that he is financially solvent and that future rentals will be paid on time and in full. If that confidence is broken, the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards.



I am willing to bet that David's has Business Interruption insurance (Not sure it applies in this case), Liability Insurance, and Umbrella Insurance. I doubt that David's will be out any money except for increased premiums.

I also think that David's offering credits is a compromise with the insurance company to spread the payments out, to ease the financial burden, and possibly save money. How many people actually use the credits in time.

As a member renting out points, I would be extremely satisfied if I got my 30% as the credit. I plan to use David's myself, to get Beach Club at the 11 month mark for a future trip. I would be even happier with David's if they paid me the 30% cash, not expecting. And would be OK if I didn't get the 30% at all.

BTW, I am interpreting the 2 notices that no money will be refunded or paid to either party. But you will get what is owed to you as a credit for a future rental.

As of now, I am not at risk unless the closure goes into the last week of April. Certainly possible but current indications are pointing to a reopen by then. I will feel sorry for the renter if it is a phased opening of the parks. Or worse, resorts open and the parks do not.


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## meryll83

What have people’s experiences been so far as renters unable to attend due to closure?
We were due at DL Grand Californian mid-April, and now the closure has been extended I’m expecting some more contact from David’s...


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## Cyberc1978

Seems that Disney have extended the closure until further notice for both parks and regular resorts.

Wonder when DVC will come with a statement.


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## starry_solo

Cyberc1978 said:


> Seems that Disney have extended the closure to April 18th for both parks and regular resorts.
> 
> Wonder when DVC will come with a statement.
> 
> View attachment 483770



why do they do this two weeks at a time?


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## CarolynFH

Cyberc1978 said:


> Seems that Disney have extended the closure to April 18th for both parks and regular resorts.
> 
> Wonder when DVC will come with a statement.
> 
> View attachment 483770


I'm pretty sure DVC is covered by this statement.  Disney's COVID-19 Operations page includes it.  https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/travel-information/


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## Sandisw

starry_solo said:


> why do they do this two weeks at a time?



They actually said it’s closed until further notice, That April 18th date is only when CMs will be paid until.

So, its Not just for 2 weeks


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## CarolynFH

starry_solo said:


> why do they do this two weeks at a time?


To me, "closed until further notice" is not the same as two weeks at a time.  April 18 is only the date they'll commit to paying CMs through.  The parks & resorts could easily be closed longer than that.


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## DGsAtBLT

starry_solo said:


> why do they do this two weeks at a time?



The closure is further notice not 2 weeks. April 18th is related to CM pay, which one could interpret to mean they may try for April 19th, but they are no longer giving an opening date.


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## starry_solo

That’s what happens when I read the summary post and not the actual picture attached!!


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## Cyberc1978

starry_solo said:


> That’s what happens when I read the summary post and not the actual picture attached!!


Sorry that’s my bad. I have edited my post.


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## waltonmkb

For me, as a renter, the problem is going to be availability.  I rented a studio at the VGC for May and I assume there is no availability for the rest of the year, let alone with all of these canceled stays that have to be rescheduled.  If I get credits it’ll be 2 years before I would actually be able to use them!  I think it’ll be easier to reschedule at Disney World just because there are so many DVC resorts.


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## Angeliki19

waltonmkb said:


> For me, as a renter, the problem is going to be availability.  I rented a studio at the VGC for May and I assume there is no availability for the rest of the year, let alone with all of these canceled stays that have to be rescheduled.  If I get credits it’ll be 2 years before I would actually be able to use them!  I think it’ll be easier to reschedule at Disney World just because there are so many DVC resorts.


I was actually hoping for the opposite, as we have never been to DL and now that i have booked us a backup at a moderate at WDW for Oct, I was thinking maybe we could use our “credit” for VGC. But you are probably right... didn’t think of that.  We might try Vero Beach too! Anyway our trip was May so I still have a lot of waiting and seeing...


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## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> I wonder too,  April is a big Spring break time.  I think they are assuming that most of those are in jeopardy so it was a good proactive way to get a jump on this before it’s officially announced,
> 
> Less angry renters,  I would love to know from owners who this impacts to see if there is a change in the release of 30% if an owner can’t or won’t reschedule or rent the points again.



David’ currently asking owners to consider payback the 70% or offering to re rent the points.  No mention of what will happen to 30% balance.


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## LAX

TheWheel said:


> 100% I would a be entitled to a refund as you have described above.
> 
> I am surprised how some owners feel that they can shift all the risks associated with renting their timeshare and reap the benefits of having others help pay their dues etc. and think that not providing those people the agreed upon accommodations means they've fulfilled their obligations. Up until the time that the resort hotels closed (even after the parks already had) *all* the risk was with the renter, they still had the "option" to use their reservation for accommodations. Once the resorts closed (not by gov't regulation BTW, although it was the correct thing to do) all that risk flipped back to the owner. While its unfair that anyone, renter or owner has to take the burden of this, that's the way the contracts are written. If as a renter I had decided, or was unable to attend my reservation that's on me. As an owner not be able to provide what you offered to rent is on you.



As long as you insist that paying for a timeshare reservation is as straightforward as paying for a set of speakers (or any physical merchandise) or prepaying for some service/work to be provided later, there is no point in debating any further whether you are entitled to 100% refund. What I will say is that someone has mentioned in another thread that a Florida court has ruled in the past that timeshare owners were NOT liable for hurricane-related timeshare closure (of course you can still claim this is different).

As far as shifting risks is concerned, you are absolutely right that owners (I guess I should qualify it by saying some because I don't speak for them all) try to shift the risks associated with the rented points to renters. However, those risks were (or at least should have been) transferred at the time of reservation, which were months ago when everything was fine and valid. Now that things have gone south, some renters conveniently claim it's solely the owners' problems that the resorts are shut down even though they have absolutely no say in that.

Notice I never claim that renters should be left hung out to dry on their own. All I have been trying to do is highlight the fact that the owners are just as much of a victim if not more than renters in this mess. If I were to be one of the unfortunate owners (luckily I am not, for the record), I think all parties involved will likely need to take their share of financial hits.

Sure, you can insist about being entitled to 100% refund all you want, but I somehow doubt even if you were to pursue this in court, you would be awarded a judgement you think you deserve.

LAX


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## davper

McCrae said:


> David’ currently asking owners to consider payback the 70% or offering to re rent the points.  No mention of what will happen to 30% balance.


I just got the same notice. So my choice is to return the 70%, which means there will be no 30% later, or rent the points again. The money received from either won't be given to the renter. It will be applied to a future credit. These points were banked from previous year and current year with Use year of June. So they expire in 2 months from today and David's knows this. The likely hood of re-renting is zero and nil. And nil is heading for the door.

What is really Pi**ing me off and getting me really hot under the collar right now is that if I am willing to lose 300 points with nothing in return, the renter is not getting the cash. David's is keeping it to apply to a future credit for the renter. So the renter is made whole, David's is made better than whole because they are keeping all the cash, and I am bent over the barrel. How the He** is this fair for both the renter and member that they promised a couple of days ago?

I am waiting until tomorrow to respond because I really want to tell them where to go and what to do when they get there. Up to this point, I was willing to work with the renter, but David's appears unwilling to work with me.

BTW, the reservation is in 4 weeks and Disney has not canceled the reservation yet.


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## conandrob240

Private owner. I rented 550 points for an April 30- May 8 reservation. Paid in full at booking. Points expire (as it stands right now) May 31. Looking back, we didn’t sign a contract for this one, just exchanged emails. WWYD?


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## davper

conandrob240 said:


> Private owner. I rented 550 points for an April 30- May 8 reservation. Paid in full at booking. Points expire (as it stands right now) May 31. Looking back, we didn’t sign a contract for this one, just exchanged emails. WWYD?


You didn't have any type of stipulations?  Then I think you are on the hook and need to refund the money IF Disney cancels the reservation. If they don't cancel, then all the loss is on the renter. 

I wouldn't volunteer anything and try to get them to agree to pay the MF so at least you are not at a loss.

If you can find the Case that is rumored to exist stating the the owner is not liable when the hotel/resort closes due uncontrollable forces. You might have leverage to get to a mutually beneficial solution.


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## conandrob240

MF? What’s MF?


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## starry_solo

conandrob240 said:


> MF? What’s MF?



maintenance fees


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## davper

conandrob240 said:


> MF? What’s MF?


Maintenance Fees


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## Marionnette

_*Just read this on FB. It sounds as if they have no idea how these travel credits will work. *_


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## conandrob240

Duh, yes. Thank you!

I guess I’m going to play follow the leader here. I don’t want to be a jerk To anyone but I also can’t afford to just lose 550 points. Hopefully DVC will come up with at least some sort of solution.


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## DebbieB

davper said:


> I am willing to bet that David's has Business Interruption insurance (Not sure it applies in this case), Liability Insurance, and Umbrella Insurance. I doubt that David's will be out any money except for increased premiums.
> 
> I also think that David's offering credits is a compromise with the insurance company to spread the payments out, to ease the financial burden, and possibly save money. How many people actually use the credits in time.



I work in Commercial Insurance, Business Interruption does not apply.    Business Interruption coverage pays after a covered property loss (fire, etc).     So if your business catches on fire and you lose income while you are closed, it is covered.   There is no covered property loss here for Business Interruption to pay.

Liability is a possibility if David's is sued for negligence.


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## DGsAtBLT

Marionnette said:


> _*Just read this on FB. It sounds as if they have no idea how these travel credits will work. *_
> 
> View attachment 484078



Yeah, I don’t think they do. I believe even in the first email they said something like they are figuring out details. Very much a last ditch effort IMO.

Also worth noting that they have been deleting negative comments on their recent posts. A negative review was deleted too (I didn’t know that was possible).


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## Lewisc

David's is regulated by Ontario's Travel Regulator www.tico.ca  There is a fund to cover some consumer losses due bankruptcy.  I have no idea how David's operation is treated.  If I was an affected Member or Renter I'd contact them.

The reality is filing legal action against a member (owner), David's or a renter is going to be difficult or impossible.  The cost to file legal action, even  if you win, is likely to be almost as much (probably more) then you'll be able to collect.

I suspect credit card disputes by renters and/or possible complaints with tico is your best shot of getting some restitution.  If I were a member I'd only let David's re -rent the points David's agrees to pay the 30% balance within 24 hours of the replacement reservation.


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## Sandisw

davper said:


> I just got the same notice. So my choice is to return the 70%, which means there will be no 30% later, or rent the points again. The money received from either won't be given to the renter. It will be applied to a future credit. These points were banked from previous year and current year with Use year of June. So they expire in 2 months from today and David's knows this. The likely hood of re-renting is zero and nil. And nil is heading for the door.
> 
> What is really Pi**ing me off and getting me really hot under the collar right now is that if I am willing to lose 300 points with nothing in return, the renter is not getting the cash. David's is keeping it to apply to a future credit for the renter. So the renter is made whole, David's is made better than whole because they are keeping all the cash, and I am bent over the barrel. How the He** is this fair for both the renter and member that they promised a couple of days ago?
> 
> I am waiting until tomorrow to respond because I really want to tell them where to go and what to do when they get there. Up to this point, I was willing to work with the renter, but David's appears unwilling to work with me.
> 
> BTW, the reservation is in 4 weeks and Disney has not canceled the reservation yet.



Uggg. That is what worries me that if a refund is sent, it is not going to renter which would be the only reason I would even consider it.

Mine is August so I think by then this will be resolved,,or this broker won’t be in business,

I don’t know the answer other than to say its reallt put a damper on all of this.


----------



## Sandisw

conandrob240 said:


> Duh, yes. Thank you!
> 
> I guess I’m going to play follow the leader here. I don’t want to be a jerk To anyone but I also can’t afford to just lose 550 points. Hopefully DVC will come up with at least some sort of solution.



The fact that your reservation is still a month away, you do have time to wait it out to give more time for them to let us know if changes for banking will be allowed.

But, as mentioned since you don’t have terms as to what would happen, you may have to try to be creative with coming to a settlement if the resort is still closed, especially if you didn’t state it was non refundable. 

IMO, as long as the resort opens, then you can deliver the reservation and won’t need to do anything.


----------



## badeacon

I received email today from David's asking me to return the 70% or  allow them to re-rent points and all apply for  a credit to the renter for future use. 
So choices are 1: return 70% to David's and they say they will add back their 30%, all for future credit.
David's gets the money and renter gets to use all their money paid via David's in future. I receive my points back( they do not expire until Feb. 2021) and re-rent them. This would have to be most likely in the fall and January, most demand for DVC and much more demand this year probably with all the cancellations this spring.
2: keep the 70% and let David's re-rent points to put in credit account for renter. David's keeps the 30% and the re-rented points would probably add back more to the credit account than originally paid by renter.  David's makes more money and renter is made whole , but I only receive 70% of what I was owed. I also spent time booking and making changes to initial rental and the re-rent will also require more of my time.

I have replied to email asking for further explanation of the re-renting process but have not heard back.
My initial thoughts are to either return the money but keep $50 for my time or if keep money and re-rent then I would be paid 30% of the re-rental. 
The email did not mention rebooking , which I would be willing to do.


----------



## Sandisw

badeacon said:


> I received email today from David's asking me to return the 70% or  allow them to re-rent points and all apply for  a credit to the renter for future use.
> So choices are 1: return 70% to David's and they say they will add back their 30%, all for future credit.
> David's gets the money and renter gets to use all their money paid via David's in future. I receive my points back( they do not expire until Feb. 2021) and re-rent them. This would have to be most likely in the fall and January, most demand for DVC and much more demand this year probably with all the cancellations this spring.
> 2: keep the 70% and let David's re-rent points to put in credit account for renter. David's keeps the 30% and the re-rented points would probably add back more to the credit account than originally paid by renter.  David's makes more money and renter is made whole , but I only receive 70% of what I was owed. I also spent time booking and making changes to initial rental and the re-rent will also require more of my time.
> 
> I have replied to email asking for further explanation of the re-renting process but have not heard back.
> My initial thoughts are to either return the money but keep $50 for my time or if keep money and re-rent then I would be paid 30% of the re-rental.
> The email did not mention rebooking , which I would be willing to do.



So, I’m curious as to what the response would be if you said, “I’ll leave the reservation in place, let Disney cancel it, and keep the 70% and cut my losses.

I mean if you don’t return the money and don’t book a new reservation, what is his plan? How does he intend to force owners into a choice.


----------



## starry_solo

Sandisw said:


> So, I’m curious as to what the response would be if you said, “I’ll leave the reservation in place, let Disney cancel it, and keep the 70% and cut my losses.
> 
> I mean if you don’t return the money and don’t book a new reservation, what is his plan? How does he intend to force owners into a choice.



plus why wouldn’t he (Davi)  just refund the renters all the money?


----------



## DebbieB

Sandisw said:


> So, I’m curious as to what the response would be if you said, “I’ll leave the reservation in place, let Disney cancel it, and keep the 70% and cut my losses.
> 
> I mean if you don’t return the money and don’t book a new reservation, what is his plan? How does he intend to force owners into a choice.



I would be tempted to try to test that.  Complicating this is the fact the Davids   is Canadian, which would complicate a legal proceeding.

I really don’t see DVC changing their mind on rebanking, members are already complaining that there is little availability to rebook.    This is really going to show the importance of home resort and use year.  I was lucky, I have an April use year with an April Riviera reservation made with current points that I just cancelled.  I plan to bank and book BWV for April next year at 11 months. Maybe I can get Riviera back at 7 months but if not, I can live with BWV.  People I feel bad for is people who got talked into Aulani with plans to stay at WDW.


----------



## davper

badeacon said:


> I received email today from David's asking me to return the 70% or  allow them to re-rent points and all apply for  a credit to the renter for future use.
> So choices are 1: return 70% to David's and they say they will add back their 30%, all for future credit.
> David's gets the money and renter gets to use all their money paid via David's in future. I receive my points back( they do not expire until Feb. 2021) and re-rent them. This would have to be most likely in the fall and January, most demand for DVC and much more demand this year probably with all the cancellations this spring.
> 2: keep the 70% and let David's re-rent points to put in credit account for renter. David's keeps the 30% and the re-rented points would probably add back more to the credit account than originally paid by renter.  David's makes more money and renter is made whole , but I only receive 70% of what I was owed. I also spent time booking and making changes to initial rental and the re-rent will also require more of my time.
> 
> I have replied to email asking for further explanation of the re-renting process but have not heard back.
> My initial thoughts are to either return the money but keep $50 for my time or if keep money and re-rent then I would be paid 30% of the re-rental.
> The email did not mention rebooking , which I would be willing to do.



I was angered by this same email they sent me. My points will be a complete loss and they want me to return the money while they don't give any of it back to the renter. The renter gets a credit and David's gets use of the money until credit is used. If credit is used. While some of us owners can go scratch.


----------



## davper

starry_solo said:


> plus why wouldn’t he (Davi)  just refund the renters all the money?


By doing it this way, David's doesn't have to take any loss and maybe make money on the deal if the renter doesn't use the credit. At the very least they can earn interest on the money until the credit is used.


----------



## Marionnette

starry_solo said:


> plus why wouldn’t he (Davi)  just refund the renters all the money?


Cash flow.

He would have to give the renter back the $4.50/point that he took off the top. This way, he keeps his commission, plus holds on to 100% of what the owner would have gotten paid while issuing a credit that has undefined terms.


----------



## Sandisw

DebbieB said:


> I would be tempted to try to test that.  Complicating this is the fact the Davids   is Canadian, which would complicate a legal proceeding.
> 
> I really don’t see DVC changing their mind on rebanking, members are already complaining that there is little availability to rebook.    This is really going to show the importance of home resort and use year.  I was lucky, I have an April use year with an April Riviera reservation made with current points that I just cancelled.  I plan to bank and book BWV for April next year at 11 months. Maybe I can get Riviera back at 7 months but if not, I can live with BWV.  People I feel bad for is people who got talked into Aulani with plans to stay at WDW.



Yes, I agree that this has really opened up things no one really thought of in so many areas. One of the reasons I bought 3 UYs and deal with it was so I never traveled late in the UY.

I also am not sure I’ll get back into the rental game again. Transfers are so much less complicated.


----------



## davper

I found this statement on David's site:


> you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort.


As we are learning, this isn't true.

I hope Disboards reconsiders them as an advertiser. David's is really shooting themselves in the foot in the way they are communicating and handling this.


----------



## Sandisw

davper said:


> I found this statement on David's site:
> 
> As we are learning, this isn't true.
> 
> I hope Disboards reconsiders them as an advertiser. David's is really shooting themselves in the foot in the way they are communicating and handling this.



Yup. And what I’ve learned is that what  I may believe is implied in  any statement may no longer be defined that way later.


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

davper said:


> I hope Disboards reconsiders them as an advertiser. David's is really shooting themselves in the foot in the way they are communicating and handling this.



With the last round of emails that went out to owners, I completely agree.  While I think Davids has tried to make as many people as whole as possible, it's pretty obvious that self preservation is the ultimate consideration.  With the recent indicatioon that resorts could be closed until end of May,  this situation isn't going to get better for David...it's going to get worse.

I would love to see Disboards fire Davids as a sponsor and enter the DVC rental game themselves.  I think it's a huge revenue stream that is just sitting there waiting to be had.  I think even if David's makes it out of this,  the risk factor of using a Canadian intermediary has been exposed.  It's just too cumbersome and costly legally gain relief from him...other than a charge back for renters.


----------



## marie1981

We are all going thru a situation that nobody could expect, and this is worldwide. Many many companies are strugling to stay alive , and this is especially everything around travelling. Airlines companies employees are temporarely out jobs because those companies only gets cancellations, no reservations.. same for hotels and I can go no and on... I rented points thru David's for april. He contacted me to see If I can refund, I said no, but I am more than happy to have him rent 70% of the points  to help reimburst the customer. I was paid, I consider those points not mine anymore. If I can help a company like David's stay in business I will... I rented many times with him before and had great customer services, I want him to stay in business and help their employees keep their jobs.  I reapeat, nobody saw that situation coming and we all have to do our part to help. By accepting to re-rent the points, I am just beeing fair and not trying to take advantage of the situation... Of course, this could be different for people who will loose points that are going to expire, but, since Disney is the one who closed the resorts, he could be a little more flexible..  What would you do if it was your company ? .


----------



## tallguy001

David has been too busy partying in Hawaii to care about you losing your money.

https://www.facebook.com/dvcRequest


----------



## Bing Showei

marie1981 said:


> We are all going thru a situation that nobody could expect, and this is worldwide. Many many companies are strugling to stay alive , and this is especially everything around travelling. Airlines companies employees are temporarely out jobs because those companies only gets cancellations, no reservations.. same for hotels and I can go no and on... I rented points thru David's for april. He contacted me to see If I can refund, I said no, but I am more than happy to have him rent 70% of the points  to help reimburst the customer. I was paid, I consider those points not mine anymore. If I can help a company like David's stay in business I will... I rented many times with him before and had great customer services, I want him to stay in business and help their employees keep their jobs.  I reapeat, nobody saw that situation coming and we all have to do our part to help. By accepting to re-rent the points, I am just beeing fair and not trying to take advantage of the situation... Of course, this could be different for people who will loose points that are going to expire, but, since Disney is the one who closed the resorts, he could be a little more flexible..  What would you do if it was your company ? .


For years, David’s made money handsomely by offering assurances to owners that they were insulated from risk and that this protection was worth the lower value assumed for those points versus renting privately.

With this latest communication, it’s clear David’s is looking to simply stay solvent. As a renter, I would have zero faith that they will be around in 6 months to use the credit. As an owner, I have zero confidence that returning any money will be anything more than cushioning the landing for David’s when they eventually crash into bankruptcy.

Owners should offer David’s the same house credit for future booking that he has graciously extended to his renters from whom he’s collected $19/point and paid the owner only $10/point. 70% of owners’ points are now available to David’s to make a future booking (subject to availability).

I understand the desire to save the business, but creating a Ponzi scheme to do it will drive away the bloodline of whatever remains of that business.


----------



## Marionnette

marie1981 said:


> What would you do if it was your company ? .


Well, I wouldn’t want to piss off my suppliers. If my suppliers were to refuse to do business with me because I screwed them over, it wouldn’t matter how many customers walked in the door. I wouldn’t have anything to sell them.


----------



## Matty B13

I also wonder if since a lot of renters don't really understand how DVC works, that they will start to complain to Disney directly and cause Disney & DVC to have a discussion with Davids?  I know that DVC isn't directly involved with the rentals, but a lot of renters don't know this.


----------



## CraigInPA

badeacon said:


> I received email today from David's asking me to return the 70% or  allow them to re-rent points and all apply for  a credit to the renter for future use.
> So choices are 1: return 70% to David's and they say they will add back their 30%, all for future credit.
> David's gets the money and renter gets to use all their money paid via David's in future. I receive my points back( they do not expire until Feb. 2021) and re-rent them. This would have to be most likely in the fall and January, most demand for DVC and much more demand this year probably with all the cancellations this spring.
> 2: keep the 70% and let David's re-rent points to put in credit account for renter. David's keeps the 30% and the re-rented points would probably add back more to the credit account than originally paid by renter.  David's makes more money and renter is made whole , but I only receive 70% of what I was owed. I also spent time booking and making changes to initial rental and the re-rent will also require more of my time.
> 
> I have replied to email asking for further explanation of the re-renting process but have not heard back.
> My initial thoughts are to either return the money but keep $50 for my time or if keep money and re-rent then I would be paid 30% of the re-rental.
> The email did not mention rebooking , which I would be willing to do.



Thankfully, I am not in this disaster at the present, but these are the two options I would consider if this was me:
1. I'd tell David's that he can rent 70% of the points, which is what he's paid for, until the end of their use year. 
2. Tell David's that he owes you the remaining 30% for the existing cancelled reservation, which is due under the owner's agreement with David's. That contract requires you to make a reservation and not cancel it. The issue of the resort being closed by DVC is not contemplated; David's wrote the contract; David's knows resorts have been closed in the past; David's thus assumes the risk for the "non refundable" aspect of the contract and owes you the remaining 30%. 

Frankly, I doubt David's is going to survive this. He'll run out of cash due to credit card charge backs, and he's robbing owners of their 30% final payment which will make owners in the future not trust him. 

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. It's a tough situation for everyone involved.


----------



## Marionnette

Matty B13 said:


> I also wonder if since a lot of renters don't really understand how DVC works, that they will start to complain to Disney directly and cause Disney & DVC to have a discussion with Davids?  I know that DVC isn't directly involved with the rentals, but a lot of renters don't know this.


Very true. I’ve seen many references on FB where renters refer to David’s and other brokers as “DVC” because the business name contains DVC (i.e. DVCrequest.com, DVC-rental.com, etc.)


----------



## bobbiwoz

davper said:


> I found this statement on David's site:
> 
> As we are learning, this isn't true.
> 
> I hope Disboards reconsiders them as an advertiser. David's is really shooting themselves in the foot in the way they are communicating and handling this.


Is David’s still a sponsor?  He’s not featured on the DVC rental forum.  The Timeshare store is.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Matty B13 said:


> I also wonder if since a lot of renters don't really understand how DVC works, that they will start to complain to Disney directly and cause Disney & DVC to have a discussion with Davids?  I know that DVC isn't directly involved with the rentals, but a lot of renters don't know this.



Honestly DVC don’t care and IMO they shouldn’t either.

Whatever an owner do with their points is not a matter for DVC to get involved in.

If renters complain to Disney or DVC they will simply direct them to where ever they rented the points from.


----------



## Nennie

Would anyone who received the "owners" email from Davids, mind cutting and pasting the entire email so the rest of us can read it?

I have absolutely no problem rebooking the points, but I'm not going to do it for 70%.


----------



## VeroGuy

As a renter who has an upcoming trip starting early June at Vero I’m really torn with what to do. My DW and I want to ride this out in hopes that we will be able to travel but as the weeks pass it looks less and less likely.

We have booked through David’s numerous times over the years without issue and we have always assumed that if we couldn’t make a trip due to our own situation we would just eat the cost. The issue is that this is not our doing, so how do both parties get made whole or at least come to some sort of agreement.

I look at David’s as the middleman who the owner used to reduce liability on their part and nothing more than that.

The contract is between me as a renter and the owner. If Disney is willing to give the owner back the points then I should be made whole with a refund of the amount of my stay. Everyone is whole at that point.

This may sound rude, and I don’t mean it to but it is not my problem as a renter that the points used to book my stay expire a month after they were due to be used. That should be between David’s and the owner and not involve me as the renter. If this were to be spelled out in the contract I would understand, but it is not. So in the renters eyes the owner should be able to move the said points to a future stay without issue as the owner has been paid for the points, am I wrong?

If my reservation is canceled by Disney then we will probably be forced to file a claim with our CC  for services not rendered. I don’t want a credit as like everyone else is saying, who knows if David’s will be here in 6 months.


----------



## Marionnette

VeroGuy said:


> As a renter who has an upcoming trip starting June 2nd at Vero I’m really torn with what to do. My DW and I want to ride this out in hopes that we will be able to travel but as the weeks pass it looks less and less likely.
> 
> We have booked through David’s numerous times over the years without issue and we have always assumed that if we couldn’t make a trip due to our own situation we would just eat the cost. The issue is that this is not our doing, so how do both parties get made whole or at least come to some sort of agreement.
> 
> I look at David’s as the middleman who the owner used to reduce liability on their part and nothing more than that.
> 
> The contract is between me as a renter and the owner. If Disney is willing to give the owner back the points then I should be made whole with a refund of the amount of my stay. Everyone is whole at that point.
> 
> This may sound rude, and I don’t mean it to but it is not my problem as a renter that the points used to book my stay expire a month after they were due to be used. That should be between David’s and the owner and not involve me as the renter. If this were to be spelled out in the contract I would understand, but it is not. So in the renters eyes the owner should be able to move the said points to a future stay without issue as the owner has been paid for the points, am I wrong?
> 
> If my reservation is canceled by Disney then we will probably be forced to file a claim with our CC  for services not rendered. I don’t want a credit as like everyone else is saying, who knows if David’s will be here in 6 months.


Welcome to the disboards!

 I encourage you to read thru the various threads on this subject, as it has been beaten to death. There are a lot of owners who are willing to help a renter reschedule their trip if they can. But there are also owners who will not “be made whole” just by getting their points back due to a lack of villas available before those points expire. Some owners are being told by DVC that they cannot move those points forward to their next use year. That means that the window of opportunity to use those points is extremely limited. And if the resorts are still closed when those points expire, well that’s just too bad.

I understand your frustration. David’s won’t even deal with you right now. They are only addressing March and April renters at this time. This situation stinks for a lot of people. Owners are frustrated, too.


----------



## marie1981

CraigInPA said:


> Thankfully, I am not in this disaster at the present, but these are the two options I would consider if this was me:
> 1. I'd tell David's that he can rent 70% of the points, which is what he's paid for, until the end of their use year.
> 2. Tell David's that he owes you the remaining 30% for the existing cancelled reservation, which is due under the owner's agreement with David's. That contract requires you to make a reservation and not cancel it. The issue of the resort being closed by DVC is not contemplated; David's wrote the contract; David's knows resorts have been closed in the past; David's thus assumes the risk for the "non refundable" aspect of the contract and owes you the remaining 30%.
> 
> Frankly, I doubt David's is going to survive this. He'll run out of cash due to credit card charge backs, and he's robbing owners of their 30% final payment which will make owners in the future not trust him.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you choose to do. It's a tough situation for everyone involved.


----------



## badeacon

Nennie said:


> Would anyone who received the "owners" email from Davids, mind cutting and pasting the entire email so the rest of us can read it?
> 
> I have absolutely no problem rebooking the points, but I'm not going to do it for 70%.




Here is the email I received. Removed the names.


We are reaching out to you today in regards to the ______reservation.

As you are aware, COVID-19 has become a pandemic, and Disney Resorts and Operations has made the difficult but brave choice to close “until further notice”. The Disney Vacation Club is cancelling those reservations impacted by their decision and returning points to owner’s accounts. 

As a result we are reaching out to inquire if you would be open to helping the _____family during this difficult time.

Reservation # 

Check in Date: April 7th, 2020

We ask, at this point, that you* do not cancel this reservation if it appears active*, but continue to work with us to see if there are any alternatives arrangements that we could pursue to assist this family. 

We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% for the _____ reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the ____paid for their reservation including our commission. 

If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit. 

We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution. 

Please let us know if you are willing to assist. If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reach out.

We look forward to hearing from you! 

Sincerely,
Cassandra Conley

David’s Vacation Club Rentals

Toll Free: (800) 610-5791

http://www.dvcrequest.com

www.facebook.com/dvcRentals

https://www.pinterest.com/dvcrentals/ 

#dvcrentals




© 2019 David's Vacation Club Rentals Cancellation Policy | Privacy Policy | Contact Us


----------



## marie1981

I do not understand  when you say that David is robbing owners of their 30% final payment...  
If the reservation gets cancelled, I get back ALL my points PLUS de 70% that was already paid. so, I think the owner is presently in the best position. 

The renter is in the worse position.. If the owner deceide to keep the points AND the 70%  $$$  it is possible that the only thing he gets back is the 30% and Davids commission on the 100% points. In that scénario, renters loose a lot, David, nothing (if he does not count his time and salaries)  and owners makes money.   

I do not agree with that scenario but I just wants to points that owners are not beeing robbed


----------



## Nennie

Thanks for posting @badeacon!  I'm thinking the 30% still gets paid when the new renter checks in.  Obviously we need clarification from Davids, but if that's the case, then I'm happy to rebook the points!


----------



## badeacon

CraigInPA said:


> Thankfully, I am not in this disaster at the present, but these are the two options I would consider if this was me:
> 1. I'd tell David's that he can rent 70% of the points, which is what he's paid for, until the end of their use year.
> 2. Tell David's that he owes you the remaining 30% for the existing cancelled reservation, which is due under the owner's agreement with David's. That contract requires you to make a reservation and not cancel it. The issue of the resort being closed by DVC is not contemplated; David's wrote the contract; David's knows resorts have been closed in the past; David's thus assumes the risk for the "non refundable" aspect of the contract and owes you the remaining 30%.
> 
> Frankly, I doubt David's is going to survive this. He'll run out of cash due to credit card charge backs, and he's robbing owners of their 30% final payment which will make owners in the future not trust him.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you choose to do. It's a tough situation for everyone involved.


I am waiting for a reply as to how the re-renting process would go. I would probably agree to re-renting the points for 30% to be paid upon reservation made ,not checkin. If able to re-rent points would probably be best outcome for all involved. I would receive my money as per contract, renter would not lose all their money and David's would receive commission, in fact 2 commissions, one original and one for re-rent. All this depends on if David's is able to stay in business.
I am not in the boat of losing my points in near future as do not expire until February but have a feeling there may be a real imbalance between supply and demand for renting in near future.
I feel all 3 parties in this transaction need to realize that there needs to be some compromise by all and every situation will be different so one rule how to handle this situation does not apply to all. and Disney also needs to understand this.


----------



## philbrody

marie1981 said:


> I do not understand  when you say that David is robbing owners of their 30% final payment...
> If the reservation gets cancelled, I get back ALL my points PLUS de 70% that was already paid. so, I think the owner is presently in the best position.
> 
> The renter is in the worse position.. If the owner deceide to keep the points AND the 70%  $$$  it is possible that the only thing he gets back is the 30% and Davids commission on the 100% points. In that scénario, renters loose a lot, David, nothing (if he does not count his time and salaries)  and owners makes money.
> 
> I do not agree with that scenario but I just wants to points that owners are not beeing robbed




Agree with this.   The owner has risk in being able to re-use the points but was paid enough to at least cover the mf's.  

The other scenario is the broker goes out of business between contract signing and check in day.  At that point I think it would be the owner who would be out the 30%.  There is a contract to not cancel the reservaiton and the broker would have declared bankruptcy (most likely) and not be liable for the 30%.  there could be an argument that the lack of final payment constitutes a breach but since they it is on the same day as check in I dont know what could be done


----------



## McCrae

David is now advising that the 30% will only be paid if they are able to rent out the points again.


----------



## Nennie

McCrae said:


> David is now advising that the 30% will only be paid if they are able to rent out the points again.



I would think Davids will have more than enough renters trying to rent and use up their credits, but if not, I guess we could always try to rent out the points ourselves, and if successful, use those funds to return the 70%.  In my case, I might bank them, and treat myself to a GV next year when this is all over!


----------



## Marionnette

marie1981 said:


> I do not understand  when you say that David is robbing owners of their 30% final payment...
> If the reservation gets cancelled, I get back ALL my points PLUS de 70% that was already paid. so, I think the owner is presently in the best position.
> 
> The renter is in the worse position.. If the owner deceide to keep the points AND the 70%  $$$  it is possible that the only thing he gets back is the 30% and Davids commission on the 100% points. In that scénario, renters loose a lot, David, nothing (if he does not count his time and salaries)  and owners makes money.
> 
> I do not agree with that scenario but I just wants to points that owners are not beeing robbed


Renters aren’t getting money back. They are getting a Travel Credit equal in dollar value to what they paid David’s. David’s keeps all the money. He gets made whole. Renter may or may not actually get to use that credit. A lot will depend on the terms of that credit (expiration date? equal number of points regardless of price? equal accommodations regardless of points needed?) And if David’s goes belly up, then that Travel Credit is worthless.

For owners, they are getting their points back but what condition are you getting them back in? Some owners have banked points that cannot be re-bank. Some have points that are past their banking deadline and cannot be banked. So, those points are pretty much distressed points that will command far less than they would have at the time the rental agreement was forged, if they can be used at all.

Is David’s going to say that the owner should re-rent those points for $10.50/point or less? That number is around what distressed points would go for thru their agency. And given that David’s would keep their commission on the re-rental, that leaves those owners worse off.


----------



## Bing Showei

VeroGuy said:


> This may sound rude, and I don’t mean it to but *it is not my problem as a renter that the points used to book my stay expire a month after they were due to be used. That should be between David’s and the owner and not involve me as the renter.* If this were to be spelled out in the contract I would understand, but it is not. So in the renters eyes the owner should be able to move the said points to a future stay without issue as the owner has been paid for the points, am I wrong?


Agreed. But the issue you’re having with getting your money back is between you and David’s. It matters absolutely nothing that an owner is willing to re-book you or refund the money for that matter. You are stuck with a future David‘s credit. *You are not getting your money back regardless of what an owner decides to do.* 

Let’s be clear about something here. The position David’s has decided to assume in the wake of all this offers absolutely ZERO assurances of anything to anyone but David’s.


----------



## Minniesgal

McCrae said:


> David’ currently asking owners to consider payback the 70% or offering to re rent the points.  No mention of what will happen to 30% balance.





VeroGuy said:


> As a renter who has an upcoming trip starting early June at Vero I’m really torn with what to do. My DW and I want to ride this out in hopes that we will be able to travel but as the weeks pass it looks less and less likely.
> 
> We have booked through David’s numerous times over the years without issue and we have always assumed that if we couldn’t make a trip due to our own situation we would just eat the cost. The issue is that this is not our doing, so how do both parties get made whole or at least come to some sort of agreement.
> 
> I look at David’s as the middleman who the owner used to reduce liability on their part and nothing more than that.
> 
> The contract is between me as a renter and the owner. If Disney is willing to give the owner back the points then I should be made whole with a refund of the amount of my stay. Everyone is whole at that point.
> 
> This may sound rude, and I don’t mean it to but it is not my problem as a renter that the points used to book my stay expire a month after they were due to be used. That should be between David’s and the owner and not involve me as the renter. If this were to be spelled out in the contract I would understand, but it is not. So in the renters eyes the owner should be able to move the said points to a future stay without issue as the owner has been paid for the points, am I wrong?
> 
> If my reservation is canceled by Disney then we will probably be forced to file a claim with our CC  for services not rendered. I don’t want a credit as like everyone else is saying, who knows if David’s will be here in 6 months.



I have no skin in the game but I don't see it like that.

The owner had something they didn't want ie a certain amount of points.  They rented those to you in a non refundable contract.  They booked specific dates for you but through no fault of the owner those dates no longer work.  

If DVC return points to the owner the owner has not been made whole.  They have had the thing they didn't want in the first place returned to them less usable than it was before you rented it.  To expect the owner to make you fully whole seems very unfair to me.

The only way I can see a fair outcome for all would be a rebook for you at a later date and if that isn't possible a 50 50 split on costs.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Minniesgal said:


> ...The only way I can see a fair outcome for all would be a rebook for you at a later date and if that isn't possible a 50 50 split on costs.


More like 50-25-25 with the renter losing 50%, the owner paying in 25% (and losing 50%) and David paying in 25% (and still gaining about 15% if the owner hasn't been paid the 30%).


----------



## davper

philbrody said:


> Agree with this. The owner has risk in being able to re-use the points but was paid enough to at least cover the mf's.


Except David's is asking for that back.


----------



## Nennie

Since David's knows the UY of everyone's points, I'll be curious to hear what they are saying to those owners whose points expire this month?  Or will everyone get the same form email, regardless of the status of their points?


----------



## davper

Deb & Bill said:


> More like 50-25-25 with the renter losing 50%, the owner paying in 25% (and losing 50%) and David paying in 25% (and still gaining about 15% if the owner hasn't been paid the 30%).


Not likely, David's is intent on not losing any money. Based on the email I got, Renter loses's 100% of cash paid and given an undefined credit for a future rental. David's get's 100% plus the Owner's 100%, The owner get's less than 0%. My points will be lost because it is very unlikely that I can rent points in a 30 day window.


----------



## davper

Nennie said:


> Since David's knows the UY of everyone's points, I'll be curious to hear what they are saying to those owners whose points expire this month?  Or will everyone get the same form email, regardless of the status of their points?


They get the same form mail. I got the exact same email knowing my points are not going to be rentable. That is how much they care about their customers.


----------



## Brian Noble

This is one of those Golden Rule situations. He who has the gold has the leverage to set the rules. Renters have no leverage at all. Owners have some: the 70% payment. David has quite a bit: the 30% plus the vigorish. What’s “legal” isn’t going to matter—individual amounts are not worth invoking the legal system to pursue, and even if they were the time it would take is probably longer than the lifetime of the underlying business. At that point it doesn’t matter if there is a judgement because there will be no money to pay it.

From where I sit, it’s only a matter of time before the company ( www.dvcrequest.com ) goes under. In the meantime the messaging to renters and owners has made it clear that dvcrequest isn’t voluntarily giving any more money to anyone for a reservation that Disney cancels. For renters, you are playing against the clock. If I were a renter I would try a chargeback. That means dvcrequest will never work with you again. That’s okay because there are lots of other places to spend your vacation dollars. I suspect dvcrequest fails before normal travel resumes. If that’s right, those credits are worthless, and whether or not they want to work with you won’t matter.

If I were an owner I’d keep my 70% and walk away. The chances of getting anything else seem remote. True, dvcrequest may never want to work with me again for being “unreasonable” but again in a few short months I don’t think that company’s opinion will matter.

In time, travel demand will recover, and someone will fill the market dvcrequest’s failure leaves open. That someone might even be the same principals.  But I think we are a long way from that.


----------



## KingRichard

davper said:


> I just got the same notice. So my choice is to return the 70%, which means there will be no 30% later, or rent the points again. The money received from either won't be given to the renter. It will be applied to a future credit. These points were banked from previous year and current year with Use year of June. So they expire in 2 months from today and David's knows this. The likely hood of re-renting is zero and nil. And nil is heading for the door.
> 
> What is really Pi**ing me off and getting me really hot under the collar right now is that if I am willing to lose 300 points with nothing in return, the renter is not getting the cash. David's is keeping it to apply to a future credit for the renter. So the renter is made whole, David's is made better than whole because they are keeping all the cash, and I am bent over the barrel. How the He** is this fair for both the renter and member that they promised a couple of days ago?
> 
> I am waiting until tomorrow to respond because I really want to tell them where to go and what to do when they get there. Up to this point, I was willing to work with the renter, but David's appears unwilling to work with me.
> 
> BTW, the reservation is in 4 weeks and Disney has not canceled the reservation yet.


Same boat as you, But Davids is not keeping the money for himself! He has to pay someone for those 300 points down the road.


----------



## davper

KingRichard said:


> Same boat as you, But Davids is not keeping the money for himself! He has to pay someone for those 300 points down the road.


But he does have use of that cash and collects interest until used. And the credit to the renter is undefined. It could have a shelf life and if the renter can't get the time to go before then, they get nothing and David's will keep the money.


----------



## Marionnette

KingRichard said:


> Same boat as you, But Davids is not keeping the money for himself! He has to pay someone for those 300 points down the road.


This assumes that they are still around to make good on those Travel Credits they are peddling to the renters. I’m not confident that too many of those renters will actually be able to redeem them before he closes his digital doors.


----------



## philbrody

davper said:


> Except David's is asking for that back.



They can ask all they want.  It's a request I plan on ignoring.  If I can make use of the points in some fashion I'll work with the renter. it's not my intent to profit on this but also wont take a 5k+ hit based on the points I rented.


----------



## KingRichard

Please what interest? How m


davper said:


> But he does have use of that cash and collects interest until used. And the credit to the renter is undefined. It could have a shelf life and if the renter can't get the time to go before then, they get nothing and David's will keep the money.


Please what interest? How much are banks paying on simple account rights now? You do realize that Davids paid 1-2% on CC when he took the money? The credit to the renter is the amount of points they rented! I would hope that Davids does not say they must use those credits in the next 12 months. He needs to spread it out over a few years so he can recover some cash and points and the renter doesn't feel like they must go on vacation in 3 months.


----------



## CarolMN

davper said:


> ........(snip)
> 
> I would love to see Disboards fire Davids as a sponsor and .........





bobbiwoz said:


> Is David’s still a sponsor?  He’s not featured on the DVC rental forum.  The Timeshare store is.



David's has not been a sponsor of the Disboards since June of *2018*.


----------



## RNicole1

Now that Disney is offering free dining to anyone who loses their reservations, would that apply to a room booked through David’s?


----------



## Minniemoo15

RNicole1 said:


> Now that Disney is offering free dining to anyone who loses their reservations, would that apply to a room booked through David’s?


No, DVC rooms are not eligible for free dining promotions.
ETA: Sorry - it looks like if you book a cash room this summer canceled DVC reservations do apply for the free dining .... I am not sure how that would work through Davids though.

What a mess all around for everyone. We have rented many times through Davids and had great experiences. I am so glad we became owners ourselves though so we now have control over our own reservations. I am also glad we picked the use year we did.


----------



## davper

KingRichard said:


> Please what interest? How m
> 
> Please what interest? How much are banks paying on simple account rights now? You do realize that Davids paid 1-2% on CC when he took the money? The credit to the renter is the amount of points they rented! I would hope that Davids does not say they must use those credits in the next 12 months. He needs to spread it out over a few years so he can recover some cash and points and the renter doesn't feel like they must go on vacation in 3 months.


Every company does not allow cash to sit idle. It is put to use somehow. Wheather is is making 1% in a nightly sweep account or paying down high interest debt now and borrow later when it is needed, they are making money on that cash. The longer they can hold onto that cash, the longer they benefit.


----------



## davper

CarolMN said:


> David's has not been a sponsor of the Disboards since June of *2018*.


Thanks, didn't know that. I assumed they were because we talk about them all the time. When ever we bring up a vendor who competes with a current sponsor, Disboards puts an end to it quickly.


----------



## heynowirv

CaliAdventurer said:


> I'll report back as soon as I know!  I don't expect them to considering they did what they were paid to do- find a member and book etc. but with this scenario maybe they feel it more politic to do so.  We'll see!


My situation is a little different. I had renters for 3/11-18, and they never showed up or cancelled.I called David's on 3/13 to find out what they knew. On3/16 they got back to me and told me the renter's never went.The parks were open until 3/16 the resorts until 3/20.After going back and forth with Disney for 3 days they finally refunded 2 nights points.
 I wrote to David's and told them I was willing to refund the price of the points +500. in good faith or I can make a reservation for them. So in essence it was 50% that the renters got back. They took the money but I never received a thank you ,except from David's of course.


----------



## davper

Minniemoo15 said:


> No, DVC rooms are not eligible for free dining promotions.
> ETA: Sorry - it looks like if you book a cash room this summer canceled DVC reservations do apply for the free dining .... I am not sure how that would work through Davids though.


Wait, what?


----------



## Minniemoo15

davper said:


> Wait, what?



I was surprised too but according to DVC Fan, members with canceled reservations are eligible.
Not sure how good of a deal it is for members though... you would have to book a cash room when presumably most would have points to use up. Also, you need to purchase tickets when many DVC members are APs.

It would, however, presumably be a better deal for Davids renters instead of their “travel credit”.... that is, if they could get their money back ...

https://dvcfan.com/2020/03/29/dvc-m...sure-eligible-for-special-disney-world-offer/


----------



## fsjking

davper said:


> Not likely, David's is intent on not losing any money. Based on the email I got, Renter loses's 100% of cash paid and given an undefined credit for a future rental. David's get's 100% plus the Owner's 100%, The owner get's less than 0%. My points will be lost because it is very unlikely that I can rent points in a 30 day window.





KingRichard said:


> Please what interest? How much are banks paying on simple account rights now? You do realize that Davids paid 1-2% on CC when he took the money? The credit to the renter is the amount of points they rented! I would hope that Davids does not say they must use those credits in the next 12 months. He needs to spread it out over a few years so he can recover some cash and points and the renter doesn't feel like they must go on vacation in 3 months.



I always laugh when I see someone says a business is keeping money to collect interest. The amount of interest gained on $5k or whatever your reservation is for over 6 months to a year isn't worth calling the bank over. Not to mention you lose liquidity that way as they are probably are going to want to lock in a term. 

Also, idk about other businesses, but we are paying just shy of 3% on cc charges online.


----------



## Sandisw

RNicole1 said:


> Now that Disney is offering free dining to anyone who loses their reservations, would that apply to a room booked through David’s?



Good question.  The key would be if the DVC owners, who owned the reservation, would be allowed to book this deal in cash for someone else,

This deal is only for a certain set of guests who had reservations during closure.  It is limited to just those guest,  So, a DVC owner who has a reservation for a guest or renter would need to find out if it can be booked that way,

Remember, this isn’t free and it is not being offered to members to book with their membership.  They are simply allowing DVC members who had reservations during the closure, to become eligible to book a cash reservation, at the same rate as other cash guests,


----------



## davper

fsjking said:


> I always laugh when I see someone says a business is keeping money to collect interest. The amount of interest gained on $5k or whatever your reservation is for over 6 months to a year isn't worth calling the bank over. Not to mention you lose liquidity that way as they are probably are going to want to lock in a term.
> 
> Also, idk about other businesses, but we are paying just shy of 3% on cc charges online.


So you think only one deal is affected by this. I imagine there are hundreds if not 1000+. It addes up.


----------



## CarolMN

davper said:


> Thanks, didn't know that. I assumed they were because we talk about them all the time. When ever we bring up a vendor who competes with a current sponsor, Disboards puts an end to it quickly.


That's not true.  Only discussions about the businesses that are in the site's filter are removed.  There are many that can be mentioned here, more by far than those in the filter.


----------



## davper

CarolMN said:


> That's not true.  Only discussions about the businesses that are in the site's filter are removed.  There are many that can be mentioned here, more by far than those in the filter.


And why are they in the sites filter If not because Disboards as an agreement with another sponsor?


----------



## fsjking

davper said:


> So you think only one deal is affected by this. I imagine there are hundreds if not 1000+. It addes up.



They are not holding money from this and putting it in a savings account to collect interest. They need liquidity right now. I get you are grasping for anything to bash them over, but this is like the guy trying to say David is blowing people's money in Hawaii. They are not making money off of interest.


----------



## CarolMN

davper said:


> And why are they in the sites filter If not because Disboards as an agreement with another sponsor?


From the Disboards Posting Guidelines:

"The  DIS is a privately owned web site and we reserve the right to restrict any outside commercial ventures at our discretion. We will not discuss the reasons behind why specific websites are filtered and any discussion regarding the word filter may be deleted. If you have questions or comments about this or any other DISboards policy, you can address with the webmasters at admin@wdwinfo.com."

See also:
A word about DIS advertisers - Please post a link to any business you wish to mention

 Please contact the admin if you wish  to  discuss this  further.


----------



## tallguy001

Looks like David removed ALL reviews from their Facebook page.


----------



## McCrae

Nennie said:


> They are not holding money from this and putting it in a savings account to collect interest. They need liquidity right now. I get you are grasping for anything to bash them over, but this is like the guy trying to say David is blowing people's money in Hawaii. They are not making money off of interest.


its not clear if David‘s are including their commission charge in the travel credit they are providing. Potentially they could get double commission if they rent points for a second time.  A few people will probably never use their travel credit.


----------



## Nennie

Not sure why that quote above is attributed to me?  I never said that!  LOL!!


----------



## starry_solo

Hopefully, if they do go bankrupt, it's at the end of the calendar year.  I have friends who used them to book a September vacation!


----------



## LAX

If I am understanding what's being posted by affected owners and renters correctly, David's is essentially digging its own grave, IMHO. Like someone already mentioned, screwing the owners makes absolutely no sense because his supply of points to rent will dry up even if he manages to survive this. If David's is really intent on preserving what's left in this business, it needs to minimize the losses to owners. The pool of renters is much greater than owners even before this mess, so it would be much easier to find new renters than owners (just in case anyone try to turn this into me advocating screwing the renters rather than owners, I am NOT!).

The right thing to do, IMHO, is try to share the financial pain amongst the parties involved. Perhaps even with David's taking a greater short-term hit if the goal is long-term survival. While I understand there is only so much loss a business can absorb, screwing the suppliers & customers to preserve the business is only delaying its eventual demise.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> If I am understanding what's being posted by affected owners and renters correctly, David's is essentially digging its own grave, IMHO. Like someone already mentioned, screwing the owners makes absolutely no sense because his supply of points to rent will dry up even if he manages to survive this. If David's is really intent on preserving what's left in this business, it needs to minimize the losses to owners. The pool of renters is much greater than owners even before this mess, so it would be much easier to find new renters than owners (just in case anyone try to turn this into me advocating screwing the renters rather than owners, I am NOT!).
> 
> The right thing to do, IMHO, is try to share the financial pain amongst the parties involved. Perhaps even with David's taking a greater short-term hit if the goal is long-term survival. While I understand there is only so much loss a business can absorb, screwing the suppliers & customers to preserve the business is only delaying its eventual demise.
> 
> LAX



I believe that him offering the travel credit to renters is his way of stopping the CC disputes.

His keeping money sent back to him by owners who don’t want to rerent the points allows him to have cash availabilie for the chargebacks coming out of his account.

All these renters who are thinking this is great may not truly understand that they aren’t going to be able to simply say I want to use my credit in December and have it happen.  Rooms may not be available for a year or so,


----------



## LAX

Sandisw said:


> I believe that him offering the travel credit to renters is his way of stopping the CC disputes.
> 
> His keeping money sent back to him by owners who don’t want to rerent the points allows him to have cash availabilie for the chargebacks coming out of his account.
> 
> All these renters who are thinking this is great may not truly understand that they aren’t going to be able to simply say I want to use my credit in December and have it happen.  Rooms may not be available for a year or so,



I have never run a business, so I am probably not qualified to comment about this. But do businesses ever ask their suppliers for money back if it has a cash flow problem? Should a business ask suppliers to take back products already delivered for a refund? If he wants to save this business, he needs to figure out a way to keep it afloat without alienating the owners. Perhaps he should draw on a line of credit or borrow against his assets if it's a temporary cash crunch that he genuinely believes he can survive?

From what I understand (and I admittedly can be totally wrong), he is trying to keep his business running by putting other people's money further at risk. He hasn't been transparent enough to the owners on his plan to survive (I know he doesn't have to divulge his business plan to anyone). Honestly, I have both rented points from and to David's before, and my few experiences have been great. However, I am not sure if I would want to do business with him in the future based on what I am reading here and I doubt I am alone.

IMHO, once a business's reputation/credibility is tarnished, it's very difficult to build it back.

LAX


----------



## OurDogCisco

I have 3 rentals out there through David.  I'm okay with returning the money because I don't have any banking issues.  But I'm a little leery of returning the money to David.  I'd prefer to return it to the renter?  Anyone know if that is possible.


----------



## Dracula

LAX said:


> If I am understanding what's being posted by affected owners and renters correctly, David's is essentially digging its own grave, IMHO. Like someone already mentioned, screwing the owners makes absolutely no sense because his supply of points to rent will dry up even if he manages to survive this. If David's is really intent on preserving what's left in this business, it needs to minimize the losses to owners. The pool of renters is much greater than owners even before this mess, so it would be much easier to find new renters than owners (just in case anyone try to turn this into me advocating screwing the renters rather than owners, I am NOT!).
> 
> The right thing to do, IMHO, is try to share the financial pain amongst the parties involved. Perhaps even with David's taking a greater short-term hit if the goal is long-term survival. While I understand there is only so much loss a business can absorb, screwing the suppliers & customers to preserve the business is only delaying its eventual demise.
> 
> LAX


I fully agree with your conclusions, but have different thoughts on some of the finer points. I am not so sure the pool of renters is much greater than the pool of owners - in any market, supply and demand typically meet at the market price; if your assumption was true, the price per point would go up until the two pools would be of similar size. And in general, in the long term the renters have more options - book cash reservations with Disney, go elsewhere or simply stay home; the owners, on the other hand, are stuck in long-term contracts and they would need to either go to the DVC resorts themselves, or rent the points out.

A business like David's would not go under because of losses - it would just fold when it runs out of cash. Right now it is probably fueled by the 30% deposits retained from reservations through February 2021, so assuming only half the renters would do credit card chargebacks, it may last about 5-6 months.


----------



## MICKIMINI

OurDogCisco said:


> I have 3 rentals out there through David.  I'm okay with returning the money because I don't have any banking issues.  But I'm a little leery of returning the money to David.  I'd prefer to return it to the renter?  Anyone know if that is possible.


Valid point - you have no idea where the money goes after it goes to the broker?  I agree that the renter won't necessarily be paid and I didn't even think of that - ouch.  I have two out as well - October and January, however both were made recently when the renters knew darn well this virus was raging everywhere so unless WDW is closed they knew what they were doing...what a mess.


----------



## Dracula

OurDogCisco said:


> I have 3 rentals out there through David.  I'm okay with returning the money because I don't have any banking issues.  But I'm a little leery of returning the money to David.  I'd prefer to return it to the renter?  Anyone know if that is possible.


This is not according to the contract, but as you have the renter's contact info, you can certainly reach out and send him a payment via PayPal. David may have some objections though.


----------



## fsjking

LAX said:


> I have never run a business, so I am probably not qualified to comment about this. But do businesses ever ask their suppliers for money back if it has a cash flow problem? Should a business ask suppliers to take back products already delivered for a refund?




Depends on the business and the item in question. Some suppliers will take inventory back. Some items can't be returned. You can't just ask for money back on items or services you can't return. It really doesn't have a lot to do with this situation though. This is essentially a 5 party deal between everyone who had involvement.


----------



## LAX

Dracula said:


> I fully agree with your conclusions, but have different thoughts on some of the finer points. I am not so sure the pool of renters is much greater than the pool of owners - in any market, supply and demand typically meet at the market price; if your assumption was true, the price per point would go up until the two pools would be of similar size. And in general, in the long term the renters have more options - book cash reservations with Disney, go elsewhere or simply stay home; the owners, on the other hand, are stuck in long-term contracts and they would need to either go to the DVC resorts themselves, or rent the points out.
> 
> A business like David's would not go under because of losses - it would just fold when it runs out of cash. Right now it is probably fueled by the 30% deposits retained from reservations through February 2021, so assuming only half the renters would do credit card chargebacks, it may last about 5-6 months.



I am not trying to argue your point about supply and demand, but just want to point out on the claim that the pool of renters is greater than owners was made based on continued "plead" by brokers (I know about David's, but not sure about others) that there are many more requests for DVC reservations than the available points to fulfill them.

LAX


----------



## Dracula

Sandisw said:


> I believe that him offering the travel credit to renters is his way of stopping the CC disputes.
> 
> His keeping money sent back to him by owners who don’t want to rerent the points allows him to have cash availabilie for the chargebacks coming out of his account.
> 
> All these renters who are thinking this is great may not truly understand that they aren’t going to be able to simply say I want to use my credit in December and have it happen.  Rooms may not be available for a year or so,


This really begs the question, why would any renter that can do a credit card chargeback and be made whole, would accept a credit voucher with uncertain terms and conditions? I get it, many people, including myself, like David's and would like to keep them in business. But you can keep them in business by renting again once the business normalizes. Airlines and cruise lines, similarly cash-strapped businesses, are doing the same, issuing vouchers for cancelled flights - and my understanding is that, once a customer accepts such a voucher, he gives up on the opportunity to pursue a credit card chargeback.


----------



## MICKIMINI

Do we know of any renter that has successfully done a chargeback - a _completed chargeback?_   Of course, initially the CC takes your side but it does involve a written statement from the CC customer and the entity that gets the chargeback and can flip flop back on the person who called for the chargeback (similar to BBB process).  It does not happen in a couple days or a week so my guess is that no one that has done a chargeback has a final answer.


----------



## LAX

MICKIMINI said:


> Do we know of any renter that has successfully done a chargeback - a _completed chargeback?_   Of course, initially the CC takes your side but it does involve a written statement from the CC customer and the entity that gets the chargeback and can flip flop back on the person who called for the chargeback (similar to BBB process).  It does not happen in a couple days or a week so my guess is that no one that has done a chargeback has a final answer.



I think it's too early to tell on the final outcomes. Based on my personal experience with a charge back on something else, it's no guarantee. I think it depends on the CC company that one uses (whether it's more customer or merchant friendly). Mine was dragged out for about three months and I eventually "lost." It wasn't several thousands of dollars, but I am not sure what else I could have done if it was a higher amount.

LAX


----------



## foreUT

For almost 15 years the claim of Peace of Mind for both parties was used as a reason to pay an extra 25% or so to a Broker. I think the failure of some Brokers to wisely use a portion of that very significant commission to insulate the Renters and the Owners from the possibility of a catastrophic event (such as now) ruined the PoM argument.


----------



## cvjw

foreUT said:


> For almost 15 years the claim of Peace of Mind for both parties was used as a reason to pay an extra 25% or so to a Broker. I think the failure of some Brokers to wisely use a portion of that very significant commission to insulate the Renters and the Owners from the possibility of a catastrophic event (such as now) ruined the PoM argument.



That claim was the reason we have rented out thousands of points with him. I wanted him in my corner if a rental went sideways. I no longer have that peace of mind in my recent dealings with his company.

I will no longer use him to rent out any of my points. That bridge is burned. I still have to figure out how to cancel one last rental that I am holding for him in November. I am super happy to send back the 70% that I have received from his company - simply to not have any more business dealings with him. I will use those points myself


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> This really begs the question, why would any renter that can do a credit card chargeback and be made whole, would accept a credit voucher with uncertain terms and conditions? I get it, many people, including myself, like David's and would like to keep them in business. But you can keep them in business by renting again once the business normalizes. Airlines and cruise lines, similarly cash-strapped businesses, are doing the same, issuing vouchers for cancelled flights - and my understanding is that, once a customer accepts such a voucher, he gives up on the opportunity to pursue a credit card chargeback.



Honestly, I don’t think they realize they can.  Some renters will be told..oh, its non refundable but we will make a special case because resoet is closed and allow you to travel later.

I still do not believe most renters have a true understanding of what booking a DVC reservation is all about.


----------



## momincolorado

Sandisw said:


> Honestly, I don’t think they realize they can.  Some renters will be told..oh, its non refundable but we will make a special case because resoet is closed and allow you to travel later.
> 
> I still do not believe most renters have a true understanding of what booking a DVC reservation is all about.



Renter here and I completely agree with you. Just look at most of the comments on their FB page - lots of thank yous, oh travel credit is great - most folks are not realizing that the credit may in many cases be completely useless (and that’s assuming he even stays in business). 

In my case, David’s informed me a few days ago that owners points were banked from prior years and DVC will not make exception to their expiration so points will expire in May, which means owner cannot re-rent. If owner agrees to send back the 70%, it will go to David’s, who will now have 100% of the payment and offer me some vague travel credit, which I will likely not be able to use (APs expiring). There will be many renters in a similar position, so David makes a nice pile of cash in these cases. I will of course insist on a refund but I doubt I will see one.


----------



## CraigInPA

Dracula said:


> A business like David's would not go under because of losses - it would just fold when it runs out of cash. Right now it is probably fueled by the 30% deposits retained from reservations through February 2021, so assuming only half the renters would do credit card chargebacks, it may last about 5-6 months.



If they stop paying the 30% to the owners, word will get around that owners aren't getting paid. Once that happens, you'll have owners telling David's to pay up ahead of check in day or will modify the reservation to cut off 30%.


----------



## OurDogCisco

cvjw said:


> That claim was the reason we have rented out thousands of points with him. I wanted him in my corner if a rental went sideways. I no longer have that peace of mind in my recent dealings with his company.
> 
> I will no longer use him to rent out any of my points. That bridge is burned. I still have to figure out how to cancel one last rental that I am holding for him in November. I am super happy to send back the 70% that I have received from his company - simply to not have any more business dealings with him. I will use those points myself


Question, I'm happy to send the 70% back too as well.  This is my first time dealing with him for 3 rentals.  Anyways, did you get an signed agreement back that your relationship had been terminated with him?  I requested a signed agreement between me, David's & the renter that our relationship has been terminated.  Just curious if he sent anything saying the agreement had been terminated or just a thank you?


----------



## CraigInPA

It occurs to me that David's is even more liable to the owners than I originally thought. 

When an owner signs up, he gives David's the run down of the points: use year, and whether points are banked, current, or borrowed and in which quantities. By choosing to use banked points that would have been at the end of their use year, he created the risk of those points being lost. Because he's been doing this for so long, and is a DVC member himself, he clearly understood the risk. I guess he dismissed the risk because all the agreements say "No Refunds". With a no refund policy, points being lost is a non-issue. But, now they are lost. Because he chose to match the owner up with a renter at the end of the use year, David's is responsible for the list points and owes the owners the full payment.


----------



## fsjking

CraigInPA said:


> It occurs to me that David's is even more liable to the owners than I originally thought.
> 
> When an owner signs up, he gives David's the run down of the points: use year, and whether points are banked, current, or borrowed and in which quantities. By choosing to use banked points that would have been at the end of their use year, he created the risk of those points being lost. Because he's been doing this for so long, and is a DVC member himself, he clearly understood the risk. I guess he dismissed the risk because all the agreements say "No Refunds". With a no refund policy, points being lost is a non-issue. But, now they are lost. Because he chose to match the owner up with a renter at the end of the use year, David's is responsible for the list points and owes the owners the full payment.



I thought I've read that owners have a choice over which reservation they fill.


----------



## Sandisw

CraigInPA said:


> It occurs to me that David's is even more liable to the owners than I originally thought.
> 
> When an owner signs up, he gives David's the run down of the points: use year, and whether points are banked, current, or borrowed and in which quantities. By choosing to use banked points that would have been at the end of their use year, he created the risk of those points being lost. Because he's been doing this for so long, and is a DVC member himself, he clearly understood the risk. I guess he dismissed the risk because all the agreements say "No Refunds". With a no refund policy, points being lost is a non-issue. But, now they are lost. Because he chose to match the owner up with a renter at the end of the use year, David's is responsible for the list points and owes the owners the full payment.



The only piece I can add is that when I rented with David’s, I was sent an email, along with a lot of other owners, with the detail of the  reservation wanted and then we respond if we are interested in accepting the booking, First one to respond wins

I think there is some responsibility on the owner since they don’t have to accept. I know I would not have accepted one with my borrowed points if it had been too far into my UY.


----------



## CraigInPA

Sandisw said:


> The only piece I can add is that when I rented with David’s, I was sent an email, along with a lot of other owners, with the detail of the  reservation wanted and then we respond if we are interested in accepting the booking, First one to respond win



True, but the owner has an expectation that the rental is absolutely non refundable based upon representations made by David's. Because David's is the purchaser of the points, he is assuming the risk of buying points for use at the end of their use year. His contract. His decision to offer to buy from the owner. His loss if anything goes wrong.


----------



## Sandisw

CraigInPA said:


> True, but the owner has an expectation that the rental is absolutely non refundable based upon representations made by David's. Because David's is the purchaser of the points, he is assuming the risk of buying points for use at the end of their use year. His contract. His decision to offer to buy from the owner. His loss if anything goes wrong.



I see your point now! You meant he should not even allow an owner to rent points with him if they have a short shelf life to begin with.


----------



## cvjw

OurDogCisco said:


> Question, I'm happy to send the 70% back too as well.  This is my first time dealing with him for 3 rentals.  Anyways, did you get an signed agreement back that your relationship had been terminated with him?  I requested a signed agreement between me, David's & the renter that our relationship has been terminated.  Just curious if he sent anything saying the agreement had been terminated or just a thank you?



not yet. I am still dealing with him on a rental where the renters checked out early (voluntarily) and want a refund. After that is sorted, I am getting out of the November rental.


----------



## cvjw

Sandisw said:


> The only piece I can add is that when I rented with David’s, I was sent an email, along with a lot of other owners, with the detail of the  reservation wanted and then we respond if we are interested in accepting the booking, First one to respond wins
> 
> I think there is some responsibility on the owner since they don’t have to accept. I know I would not have accepted one with my borrowed points if it had been too far into my UY.


David‘s did not send out the group email to me. When I wanted to rent points, he sent me the rentals directly.  And asked would I make the reservations.  Guess it was because I rented so many points thru him.


----------



## Amymouse13

badeacon said:


> Here is the email I received. Removed the names.
> 
> 
> We are reaching out to you today in regards to the ______reservation.
> 
> As you are aware, COVID-19 has become a pandemic, and Disney Resorts and Operations has made the difficult but brave choice to close “until further notice”. The Disney Vacation Club is cancelling those reservations impacted by their decision and returning points to owner’s accounts.
> 
> As a result we are reaching out to inquire if you would be open to helping the _____family during this difficult time.
> 
> Reservation #
> 
> Check in Date: April 7th, 2020
> 
> We ask, at this point, that you* do not cancel this reservation if it appears active*, but continue to work with us to see if there are any alternatives arrangements that we could pursue to assist this family.
> 
> We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% for the _____ reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the ____paid for their reservation including our commission.
> 
> If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.
> 
> We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution.
> 
> Please let us know if you are willing to assist. If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reach out.
> 
> We look forward to hearing from you!
> 
> Sincerely,
> Cassandra Conley
> 
> David’s Vacation Club Rentals
> 
> Toll Free: (800) 610-5791
> 
> http://www.dvcrequest.com
> 
> www.facebook.com/dvcRentals
> 
> https://www.pinterest.com/dvcrentals/
> 
> #dvcrentals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © 2019 David's Vacation Club RentalsCancellation Policy | Privacy Policy | Contact Us



Get the f out... So they want the owners to pay back the money they were given to David's (not the renter) so the owner may end up losing points then the renter gets a worthless voucher and no money?  So the only person getting money is David?  I sure hope owners aren't doing this.  We have mid April reservations.  It's a split stay and one owner has cancelled their 4 days but the other has not.  From what I've been told their points may expire (but they didn't know) and this was only on phone after many form emails telling me to be patient and not to email again bc it would delay process... Yeah I'm not amused.  

My husband guessed the voucher would probably say must be used this year but oh wait nothing is available...


----------



## CarolynFH

CraigInPA said:


> True, but the owner has an expectation that the rental is absolutely non refundable based upon representations made by David's. Because David's is the purchaser of the points, he is assuming the risk of buying points for use at the end of their use year. His contract. His decision to offer to buy from the owner. His loss if anything goes wrong.





Sandisw said:


> I see your point now! You meant he should not even allow an owner to rent points with him if they have a short shelf life to begin with.


I see the point too, but I’m not sure it’s David’s responsibility to manage the owner’s points in that way.


----------



## Minniemoo15

I notice they are deleting posts on their FB page. Someone commented critically, but still politely, about the travel credits and warning renters not to blindly take it. The post was deleted within minutes.

I have both rented points, and rented my own points, through Davids many times. I have recommended them to many others due to their top notch customer service.

But this all leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I would not recommend that anyone use them going forward, at least in the next couple of months to see how this all shakes out.

I feel badly for everyone involved - renters, owners and the front line employees of Davids who are trying to manage this within the parameters given by their company.


----------



## GoofyCoaster

As an owner, I would be wary of returning cash back to David. It is doubtful it will make it back to your renter. The most recent email from David’s reads that renters will be offered future travel credit.  So the refund you returned in good faith will go towards David’s chargebacks and business expenses and your renter may end up with a useless travel credit.

If my points were expiring in April or June, I’d take the 70% and just walk away.  That 70% approximates a 50/50 split for what is essentially no-fault situation on the part of the owner.   

If my points had longevity, I’d try to book another reservation for a renter.

But no way would I send money back to David right now.


----------



## lawboy2001

Amymouse13 said:


> Get the f out... So they want the owners to pay back the money they were given to David's (not the renter) so the owner may end up losing points then the renter gets a worthless voucher and no money?  So the only person getting money is David?  I sure hope owners aren't doing this.  We have mid April reservations.  It's a split stay and one owner has cancelled their 4 days but the other has not.  From what I've been told their points may expire (but they didn't know) and this was only on phone after many form emails telling me to be patient and not to email again bc it would delay process... Yeah I'm not amused.
> 
> My husband guessed the voucher would probably say must be used this year but oh wait nothing is available...



DIS-gusting!  "Help out the X family..."  if the goal is to "Help out the X family", he should be asking the owners for the 70% back TO REFUND THE MONEY TO THE RENTER.  Not keep it and use this silly travel credit invention as an excuse.  

As I have indicated on another thread, if the renter cannot check in because of this current closure, I think that returning money to the renters s what should happen, legally, in this case, since the contract has been frustrated.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

I am so incredibly frustrated with the poor communication on their end. It takes days for a response, which is almost always canned and does not address issues raised in previous emails. That, combined with them pulling the reviews from their Facebook page has me freaked out. I think we will be looking into filing a dispute or moving forward with our insurance tomorrow. The ironic part of all of this is we are insured and covered for this, but their choice to publicly bend on the no refunds policy has us stuck having to try and get our money back before we can make our claim.

I know I’ve posted our gripes many times already, but the pulling the reviews is really shady, IMO. I think we’re done waiting and giving a chance. Oh and if we were on the owner side, there is no way I would be giving back that 70% knowing it is going to the travel credit. I’m pretty annoyed they are funding the travel credits with money the owner is sending back.


----------



## momincolorado

DGsAtBLT said:


> I am so incredibly frustrated with the poor communication on their end. It takes days for a response, which is almost always canned and does not address issues raised in previous emails. That, combined with them pulling the reviews from their Facebook page has me freaked out. I think we will be looking into filing a dispute or moving forward with our insurance tomorrow. The ironic part of all of this is we are insured and covered for this, but their choice to publicly bend on the no refunds policy has us stuck having to try and get our money back before we can make our claim.
> 
> I know I’ve posted our gripes many times already, but the pulling the reviews is really shady, IMO. I think we’re done waiting and giving a chance. Oh and if we were on the owner side, there is no way I would be giving back that 70% knowing it is going to the travel credit. I’m pretty annoyed they are funding the travel credits with money the owner is sending back.



Look at the comments on their FB page. 20 mins ago, there were comments letting renters know that David’s is asking owners to pay back the money, people asking if pursuing disputes with cc companies is the best course of action if David’s hanging on to the money, etc. These comments have all now been deleted and then David’s posted their usual “stick to the script” response.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

momincolorado said:


> Look at the comments on their FB page. 20 mins ago, there were comments letting renters know that David’s is asking owners to pay back the money, people asking if pursuing disputes with cc companies is the best course of action if David’s hanging on to the money, etc. These comments have all now been deleted and then David’s posted their usual “stick to the script” response.



Yup, over the course of the last few days I have watched anything not completely complementary get deleted on the updates they posted. Even a negative review, before they took them away entirely. I didn’t think you could even do that on Facebook, otherwise what’s the point of them?


----------



## starry_solo

DGsAtBLT said:


> Yup, over the course of the last few days I have watched anything not completely complementary get deleted on the updates they posted. Even a negative review, before they took them away entirely. I didn’t think you could even do that on Facebook, otherwise what’s the point of them?



Page owners can delete any comments made on their page.

If anyone wants to refund renters directly, make sure they sign a document that releases the owners of those points from liability (owner only, not anyone else).


----------



## DGsAtBLT

starry_solo said:


> Page owners can delete any comments made on their page.
> 
> If anyone wants to refund renters directly, make sure they sign a document that releases the owners of those points from liability (owner only, not anyone else).



The page I knew. I dont know why I thought reviews were different.


----------



## DebbieB

cvjw said:


> not yet. I am still dealing with him on a rental where the renters checked out early (voluntarily) and want a refund. After that is sorted, I am getting out of the November rental.



Did you get the points back?   Can you use them?  If not, I wouldn't refund.


----------



## foreUT

CraigInPA said:


> It occurs to me that David's is even more liable to the owners than I originally thought.
> 
> When an owner signs up, he gives David's the run down of the points: use year, and whether points are banked, current, or borrowed and in which quantities. By choosing to use banked points that would have been at the end of their use year, he created the risk of those points being lost. Because he's been doing this for so long, and is a DVC member himself, he clearly understood the risk. I guess he dismissed the risk because all the agreements say "No Refunds". With a no refund policy, points being lost is a non-issue. But, now they are lost. Because he chose to match the owner up with a renter at the end of the use year, David's is responsible for the list points and owes the owners the full payment.


This is why I have not had a lot of sympathy for brokers. After being in the business for more than a decade, every possible nuance of renting points and the life of those points should have been understood and taken into account. UY logistics was the broker's job, not the other parties.


----------



## foreUT

cvjw said:


> not yet. I am still dealing with him on a rental where the renters checked out early (voluntarily) and want a refund. After that is sorted, I am getting out of the November rental.


OMG, I would never refund that money. Staying and then claiming a refund is very close to defrauding an innkeeper as defined in FL. Was it just a portion of the stay the renter wanted refunded, or the total amount? I wouldn't refund a penny, either way.


----------



## jodistrock

We rented when we went to Hilton Head March 2018. We left early because the weather was horrific. I did not ask for a refund for myself but did encourage the owner to call to see about getting points back. I don't know if they ever did... the pools were closed so there was NOTHING to do there. We left early for FL, where it was MUCH warmer!


----------



## cvjw

foreUT said:


> OMG, I would never refund that money. Staying and then claiming a refund is very close to defrauding an innkeeper as defined in FL. Was it just a portion of the stay the renter wanted refunded, or the total amount? I wouldn't refund a penny, either way.



The renters voluntarily left early, the resorts were still open. Then, wanted a refund for the nights they weren’t there. Even though all my points are gone. I told them no way. I have gotten several emails from David’s - the renters are trying to deal with the beach club and see if they can get the points returned And then get a refund. It just never ends


----------



## Lewisc

cvjw said:


> The renters voluntarily left early, the resorts were still open. Then, wanted a refund for the nights they weren’t there. Even though all my points are gone. I told them no way. I have gotten several emails from David’s - the renters are trying to deal with the beach club and see if they can get the points returned And then get a refund. It just never ends


Did David's pay you 30% when they checked in?


----------



## MICKIMINI

cvjw said:


> David‘s did not send out the group email to me. When I wanted to rent points, he sent me the rentals directly.  And asked would I make the reservations.  Guess it was because I rented so many points thru him.


That was how it was with me as well...I would just get a phone call or an email and make the reservation.


----------



## jodistrock

foreUT said:


> OMG, I would never refund that money. Staying and then claiming a refund is very close to defrauding an innkeeper as defined in FL. Was it just a portion of the stay the renter wanted refunded, or the total amount? I wouldn't refund a penny, either way.





cvjw said:


> The renters voluntarily left early, the resorts were still open. Then, wanted a refund for the nights they weren’t there. Even though all my points are gone. I told them no way. I have gotten several emails from David’s - the renters are trying to deal with the beach club and see if they can get the points returned And then get a refund. It just never ends


We also left a Washington DC hotel 1 night early & they would only give a partial refund for the night we wanted to drop. We voluntarily left. We didn't expect anything. They have to make a living too. Now, if they would have spoke with you & you decided to do that, that is a completely different scenario. If they just left early, then that's on them.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

cvjw said:


> The renters voluntarily left early, the resorts were still open. Then, wanted a refund for the nights they weren’t there. Even though all my points are gone. I told them no way. I have gotten several emails from David’s - the renters are trying to deal with the beach club and see if they can get the points returned And then get a refund. It just never ends


You have fulfilled your part in the contract, it was their choice to leave early. Do not refund even if you get points returned, which is doubtful I would have thought. There is no way you should feel obligated to do anything else.


----------



## cvjw

Maddiesmum03 said:


> You have fulfilled your part in the contract, it was their choice to leave early. Do not refund even if you get points returned, which is doubtful I would have thought. There is no way you should feel obligated to do anything else.


So agree with you. Just ready for this relationship with David’s to be over.


----------



## TheWheel

Maddiesmum03 said:


> You have fulfilled your part in the contract, it was their choice to leave early. Do not refund even if you get points returned, which is doubtful I would have thought. There is no way you should feel obligated to do anything else.


100% agree, at that point the resort was open and renters were there and left. I'd have done the same but would have had no expectation for a refund in that scenario.


----------



## SherylLC

CraigInPA said:


> There's a lot of your argument that ignores that any contract (except for those which are plainly illegal, such as a contract to kill someone) between two adult parties is binding on both parties, no matter what happens.
> 
> When the owner made the reservation, and kept the reservation open for the member, he sold something of value. The value of those points could be reduced to zero if the points are expiring soon, or be reduced greatly if the points are expiring in 2020 (because there are few rooms available between September and January).
> 
> The renter has paid money for a reservation. That money was paid to a broker. The broker collects $4.50 per point for his commission and pays the owner $10.15 per point immediately. The broker then holds $3.35 per point until the day of check-in, when it is then released to the owner.
> 
> The key problem here is that the contracts do not have a Force Majeure clause, which would state what would happen in the event the contract becomes impossible to fulfill due to the actions of a third party.
> 
> One could claim that the renter should get their money back in full. The broker would say, "But I spent time and money to make this match up, so I should be paid!". The owner would say, "I rented those points when they had value, and now they have none, so I should be paid!". Because the broker is holding the $3.35 per point, and has already collected his $4.50 per point commission, and has a "no refund" contract with the renter, he believes he is in the driver's seat.
> 
> But, ultimately, the broker is the one responsible. It is a tenet of law that the person who drafts the contract is ultimately responsible for its content, even if it works against him because of his own incompetence in drafting it. By failing to have a Force Majeure event, even though it was completely foreseeable that one would be needed (Hurricanes and 9/11 shut down Disney in the past), David's has exposed themselves to liability on both sides: refunds for the renters, and full compensation for the owners. They rented reservations which, through no fault of the renter or owner could not be fulfilled. I'm sure David's knows this, so they are scrambling to re-book as many clients as they can, and trying to keep as much cash in the bank to cover the coming charge backs from people who cannot be accommodated with a re-book.
> 
> I see major changes coming to every broker's contract due to this event, and changes as to how these brokers operate.


I saw somewhere that David's is encouraging owners to "follow your conscience" and refund the money (to David's). I found that language somewhere between offensive and despicable. Does David's have no conscience? Many owners will not have those points to use since they will be expiring. I also believe David's should be paying out the 30% to owners, as contractually promised.

Would a class action lawsuit be possible?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

SherylLC said:


> I saw somewhere that David's is encouraging owners to "follow your conscience" and refund the money (to David's). I found that language somewhere between offensive and despicable. Does David's have no conscience? Many owners will not have those points to use since they will be expiring. I also believe David's should be paying out the 30% to owners, as contractually promised.
> 
> Would a class action lawsuit be possible?



That is very condescending language from a company that would have no good reason not to pass that money right on to renters (except their own interests) instead of holding it as a credit for future use with an entirely different owner.


----------



## Sandisw

Sandisw said:


> That is very condescending language from a company that would have no good reason not to pass that money right on to renters (except their own interests) instead of holding it as a credit for future use with an entirely different owner.



I agree,  The entire thing is leaving me with a bad feeling.  I won’t use them again.   But, I’m not going to leave the renter without a room since by August it should be open.  

Getting money back and then not returning to renter is just wrong,


----------



## McCrae

I was happy to see if I can help the family that rented my points if I could. I don’t feel any obligation to provide points to another person. I am not sure if I will agree to my points being Re-rented. I would rather draw a line under this and move on. It’s a lot of extra hassle trying to match up points/dates etc. I would have a very different approach if David’s were sticking to the contracted payment dates. David might not survive and any Promise of future payments will be worthless.
My offer to rebook or transfer points was not accepted.


----------



## Lewisc

foreUT said:


> OMG, I would never refund that money. Staying and then claiming a refund is* very close to defrauding an innkeeper as defined in F*L. Was it just a portion of the stay the renter wanted refunded, or the total amount? I wouldn't refund a penny, either way.


I know many posters in this thread are "pro-owner"  Your statement is way over the top,hopefully meant as hyperbole.

A person checks out early for valid reasons.  It's certainly not very close to fraud to ask if a partial refund is due.  It's not close to fraud to ask the broker if a partial refund is due.  It's not close to fraud to even as the member (owner) if a partial refund is due.

To be clear I don't think the renter is entitled to anything other then a, polite, sorry but no response.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

McCrae said:


> I was happy to see if I can help the family that rented my points if I could. I don’t feel any obligation to provide points to another person. I am not sure if I will agree to my points being Re-rented. I would rather draw a line under this and move on. It’s a lot of extra hassle trying to match up points/dates etc. I would have a very different approach if David’s were sticking to the contracted payment dates. David might not survive and any Promise of future payments will be worthless.
> My offer to rebook or transfer points was not accepted.


I agree, I would rather cut ties altogether, but am tied in to several more rental reservations.  I did manage to persuade David’s to pay the final 30% from 18th March rental (but the resort was still open then) and waiting to see what happens with April reservation. Because they are fully paid for, I am happy to re rent the points from March.....they are August 2020 points, so lots of potential, but I have just had a request to book a reservation for 3 more points than the original booking!!! I have no more points to play with as all my 2021 points are already tied into the  3 more reservations with David’s in December and January. I worry how this will all end. I am not in a position to pay back the 70% to cut ties with David, but have no faith in getting the 30% from all the future bookings and wonder how messy the re rental of points will become.


----------



## waltonmkb

As a renter, I would like to see if the owner would consider splitting the cost 50/50 if they lost points, but I’m unsure how to convey that to David’s.  I’m afraid that if the owner gives back 100%, David’s will only pass on 50% of that since they know I will be happy with that and nobody will be the wiser.  I am sure though, that I will not be accepting a travel credit.


----------



## Nennie

waltonmkb said:


> As a renter, I would like to see if the owner would consider splitting the cost 50/50 if they lost points, but I’m unsure how to convey that to David’s.  I’m afraid that if the owner gives back 100%, David’s will only pass on 50% of that since they know I will be happy with that and nobody will be the wiser.  I am sure though, that I will not be accepting a travel credit.



Seems like David's is keeping 100% of whatever monies the owners send back.


----------



## Amymouse13

cvjw said:


> So agree with you. Just ready for this relationship with David’s to be over.


Just like David's company


----------



## McCrae

Nennie said:


> Seems like David's is keeping 100% of whatever monies the owners send back.


This is what I thought and it is a concern.


----------



## foreUT

Lewisc said:


> I know many posters in this thread are "pro-owner"  Your statement is way over the top,hopefully meant as hyperbole.
> 
> A person checks out early for valid reasons.  It's certainly not very close to fraud to ask if a partial refund is due.  It's not close to fraud to ask the broker if a partial refund is due.  It's not close to fraud to even as the member (owner) if a partial refund is due.
> 
> To be clear I don't think the renter is entitled to anything other then a, polite, sorry but no response.


At the time of the post, I did not know it was only a partial refund request. cvjw clarified in a following post. I have a vacation rental in FL and after an individual stayed at my property and then initiated a chargeback w MC, I can assure you that my local Sheriff's Office had no problem opening an investigation on that charge. I agree that modifying the request to only those nights not used makes a big difference on how it's viewed. Glad we both agree cvjw has no reason to return any previously paid funds to David's.


----------



## foreUT

DGsAtBLT said:


> That is very condescending language from a company that would have no good reason not to pass that money right on to renters (except their own interests) instead of holding it as a credit for future use with an entirely different owner.


I agree. Is the reason for not using the Owners' refunds to directly compensate their Renters be bc NOT including their commission in the refund would be a pretty glaring omission? Or, is the request mainly to infuse cash into the company? How would the broker account for a double payment? Why would anyone refund if their Renter doesn't receive the money? Too many questions.


----------



## vnovabri

Nennie said:


> Seems like David's is keeping 100% of whatever monies the owners send back.



Really? How do you know this? We got an email from Davids over the weekend requesting that we refund the 70% and that t would go to the renter as a travel credit. Interesting of note it certainly seems like we arent obligated to refund the money but Davids is asking people to do the right thing. It sucks because the rented points are banked points so we will most likely lose them but I dont want the renting family to be left out in the cold. If Davids is just going to pocket the money, and if go out of business then that travel credit isnt worth anything. I would much rather they refund the money to the renter...especially since I am still left figuring out what to do with these banked points (I am going to assume there will be no availability between now and end of my UY once things reopen).


----------



## Sandisw

vnovabri said:


> Really? How do you know this? We got an email from Davids over the weekend requesting that we refund the 70% and that t would go to the renter as a travel credit. Interesting of note it certainly seems like we arent obligated to refund the money but Davids is asking people to do the right thing. It sucks because the rented points are banked points so we will most likely lose them but I dont want the renting family to be left out in the cold. If Davids is just going to pocket the money, and if go out of business then that travel credit isnt worth anything. I would much rather they refund the money to the renter...especially since I am still left figuring out what to do with these banked points (I am going to assume there will be no availability between now and end of my UY once things reopen).



If you refund the money, he keeps the cash, and the renter gets the travel credit for a future trip,

The renter is not being offered to receive a refund, even if the owner refunds the money.

That is what many owners here are having a problem with In his newest plan.  If the renter ends up not being able to use the travel credit, he just ends up with money to keep for future payments, and IMO, help with the CC chargebacks he is dealing with.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

vnovabri said:


> Really? How do you know this? We got an email from Davids over the weekend requesting that we refund the 70% and that t would go to the renter as a travel credit. Interesting of note it certainly seems like we arent obligated to refund the money but Davids is asking people to do the right thing. It sucks because the rented points are banked points so we will most likely lose them but I dont want the renting family to be left out in the cold. If Davids is just going to pocket the money, and if go out of business then that travel credit isnt worth anything. I would much rather they refund the money to the renter...especially since I am still left figuring out what to do with these banked points (I am going to assume there will be no availability between now and end of my UY once things reopen).



They are saying it right there to you in the email, the money they’re asking for is going to David’s, and they are giving the renter a travel credit instead of their money back. It is of no benefit to you the owner, or the renter to hold this as a credit. The only party it helps is David’s.

I’m curious if they will issue travel credits to all renters, or only ones who they have received money back from their owners.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> They are saying it right there to you in the email, the money they’re asking for is going to David’s, and they are giving the renter a travel credit instead of their money back. It is of no benefit to you the owner, or the renter to hold this as a credit. The only party it helps is David’s.
> 
> I’m curious if they will issue travel credits to all renters, or only ones who they have received money back from their owners.



Sounds like all are being offered it, if they aren’t able to reschedule the trip immediately.


----------



## vnovabri

DGsAtBLT said:


> I’m curious if they will issue travel credits to all renters, or only ones who they have received money back from their owners.



This is my question. I wonder what other owners are doing...


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> Sounds like all are being offered it, if they aren’t able to reschedule the trip immediately.



We were all offered, but I wonder what ends up actually happening if they don’t receive much of anything from renters, given that that seems to be their plan to help fund these credits.

I wouldn’t be surprised if credits end up being contingent on something more than just not rebooking. They have not been exactly trustworthy throughout this.


----------



## tallguy001

Is there any interest in setting up a Facebook group to connect owners and renters? I’d be happy to help get it going. Then they can each get on the same page. The thought of David taking money back from owners and not proving refunds with that money sickens me.


----------



## DVCindy

Has any member/owner received a response from David's on a offer to try to work with a renter by rebooking a reservation for a future travel date? I have offered that option as an alternative to the options suggested in the email from David's (to either return the 70% collected so far or re-rent my points).  I don't feel comfortable with either of those options for many of the reasons that have been discussed here.  However, they will not directly answer me on this point! I'm getting frustrated that their responses have disregarded addressing this offer as a solution.  Has anyone else offered this option?


----------



## vnovabri

tallguy001 said:


> Is there any interest in setting up a Facebook group to connect owners and renters? I’d be happy to help get it going. Then they can each get on the same page. The thought of David taking money back from owners and not proving refunds with that money sickens me.



I guess part of the problem is that Davids will always have at least 30% in their control. Maybe some renters prefer to get the full credit. Again I am not sure how David's is handling that side of things.


----------



## JETSDAD

DGsAtBLT said:


> The page I knew. I dont know why I thought reviews were different.


A page owner can't delete reviews but they can turn off reviews from showing all together.  So if they were to turn them back on the negative reviews would still be there.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

JETSDAD said:


> A page owner can't delete reviews but they can turn off reviews from showing all together.  So if they were to turn them back on the negative reviews would still be there.



They definitely deleted one before they removed them. It was a few days before. I was watching the reviews closely to monitor the whole thing.

I thought what you said was the case, which is why I was surprised.


----------



## JETSDAD

DGsAtBLT said:


> They definitely deleted one before they removed them. It was a few days before. I was watching the reviews closely to monitor the whole thing.
> 
> I thought what you said was the case, which is why I was surprised.


The person who left the review would be able to delete it so it is possible that a review was removed but the page owner can not (I have a couple of business pages).  The page owner would have to report the review as false but that takes a while and it would really have to be false for it to be removed by FB.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

JETSDAD said:


> The person who left the review would be able to delete it so it is possible that a review was removed but the page owner can not (I have a couple of business pages).  The page owner would have to report the review as false but that takes a while and it would really have to be false for it to be removed by FB.



I wonder if that was the case (false review). It was made by someone who was all over their page with very negative (but true) comments that kept getting deleted. I got the impression they didn’t have their own reservation.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I sent an email to David's for my renter 04/04 - they had not contacted the renter - Upon receiving my email David's contacted them and have sent a few back and forth but are not replying to the questions my renter has - How do I know this? I contacted the renter myself to let the renter know what was going on with David's and to let the renter know I was willing to work with them to rebook their rental.
I also have rented points and I really wish my Owner would contact me as David's could care less to work with me on my rental - I have contacted him several times and he will not address it at this time as he is too bust with FL & CA - per his response. Their attitude has been very put off and I for one do NOT care for this Credit Voucher one Bit - I have Two other rentals coming up and I do not care to return any funds to David's as I don't feel it will impact the renter one bit and leave them Out in the Cold. I don't feel this is correct and I can't do that. This whole thing was a nightmare to begin with and David's has made it even worse as far as I am concerned - it will become an every man for himself grab what you can very shortly and all of this will be because of how David decided to protect himself and NOT honor his business Motto that he would TAKE ALL THE RISK - rent with him!


----------



## waltonmkb

What if the renter refuses a travel credit?  Will my only choice be a chargeback from the cc?


----------



## waltonmkb

How likely is a chargeback to be approved over this?  I found the owners on Facebook and I’m thinking of doing a chargeback and then contacting the owners directly and offering them half of the money back directly from me.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

waltonmkb said:


> How likely is a chargeback to be approved over this?  I found the owners on Facebook and I’m thinking of doing a chargeback and then contacting the owners directly and offering them half of the money back directly from me.



The owners have 70% of their money, assuming they haven’t given it back. If you are successful with a chargeback I wouldn’t do anything besides letting them know so they have that knowledge if trying to get the rest of their money from David’s.


----------



## Amymouse13

tallguy001 said:


> Is there any interest in setting up a Facebook group to connect owners and renters? I’d be happy to help get it going. Then they can each get on the same page. The thought of David taking money back from owners and not proving refunds with that money sickens me.


Don't owners have contact info?  I just have names but they aren't unique enough


----------



## Amymouse13

If David's takes the money from owners and doesn't actually give renter anything isn't that fraud??


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> If David's takes the money from owners and doesn't actually give renter anything isn't that fraud??



Davids is clear to owners what his new plan so Owners refunding money know that is What is happening.


----------



## Dracula

Amymouse13 said:


> If David's takes the money from owners and doesn't actually give renter anything isn't that fraud??


No, because David's would give renters credit vouchers - the equivalent of gift cards.


----------



## Dracula

tallguy001 said:


> Is there any interest in setting up a Facebook group to connect owners and renters? I’d be happy to help get it going. Then they can each get on the same page. The thought of David taking money back from owners and not proving refunds with that money sickens me.


As much as I don't like dealing with Facebook, I would definitely join such a Facebook group.


----------



## Dracula

Amymouse13 said:


> Don't owners have contact info?  I just have names but they aren't unique enough


Indeed, owners have the renter's full contact info. Upon a quick reading of the Intermediary Agreement, I don't see any provision preventing an owner from reaching out directly to the renter.


----------



## Amymouse13

Dracula said:


> No, because David's would give renters credit vouchers - the equivalent of gift cards.


Depends if they have any actual value...


----------



## Dracula

Amymouse13 said:


> Depends if they have any actual value...


Just like with other distressed gift cards from United, JC Penney or Sears - the sooner you use them, the better.


----------



## Deb & Bill

GoofyCoaster said:


> As an owner, I would be wary of returning cash back to David. It is doubtful it will make it back to your renter. The most recent email from David’s reads that renters will be offered future travel credit.  So the refund you returned in good faith will go towards David’s chargebacks and business expenses and your renter may end up with a useless travel credit.
> 
> If my points were expiring in April or June, I’d take the 70% and just walk away.  That 70% approximates a 50/50 split for what is essentially no-fault situation on the part of the owner.
> 
> If my points had longevity, I’d try to book another reservation for a renter.
> 
> But no way would I send money back to David right now.


At a minimum, if my points expired or were expiring before they could be used,  I would keep enough money to pay my fees on the points I rented but could not use.  Then hold the rest of the money for the renter and not send it to David.


----------



## McCrae

DVCindy said:


> Has any member/owner received a response from David's on a offer to try to work with a renter by rebooking a reservation for a future travel date? I have offered that option as an alternative to the options suggested in the email from David's (to either return the 70% collected so far or re-rent my points).  I don't feel comfortable with either of those options for many of the reasons that have been discussed here.  However, they will not directly answer me on this point! I'm getting frustrated that their responses have disregarded addressing this offer as a solution.  Has anyone else offered this option?


I made a similar offer and got no response.


----------



## Dracula

DVCindy said:


> Has any member/owner received a response from David's on a offer to try to work with a renter by rebooking a reservation for a future travel date? I have offered that option as an alternative to the options suggested in the email from David's (to either return the 70% collected so far or re-rent my points).  I don't feel comfortable with either of those options for many of the reasons that have been discussed here.  However, they will not directly answer me on this point! I'm getting frustrated that their responses have disregarded addressing this offer as a solution.  Has anyone else offered this option?


I also offered this option - thanks for suggesting it!


----------



## tallguy001

Dracula said:


> Just like with other distressed gift cards from United, JC Penney or Sears - the sooner you use them, the better.


Problem here is that the resorts are still closed, seemingly full for the rest of the year, and the details of the credit have not been announced.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Did anyone who rented out their points with David do the cruise booking instead of being paid by him?  I wonder how that is working out.


----------



## foreUT

DVCindy said:


> Has any member/owner received a response from David's on a offer to try to work with a renter by rebooking a reservation for a future travel date? I have offered that option as an alternative to the options suggested in the email from David's (to either return the 70% collected so far or re-rent my points).  I don't feel comfortable with either of those options for many of the reasons that have been discussed here.  However, they will not directly answer me on this point! I'm getting frustrated that their responses have disregarded addressing this offer as a solution.  Has anyone else offered this option?


I understand the downsides to making direct contact, but at this stage, IMO, trying to make the innocent parties on both sides of the equation, you and the Renter, as satisfied as possible, based on the situation, would be best. If you're resigned to never receiving your remaining payout, I'd contact them. You might be able to make someone happy.  JMHO


----------



## foreUT

waltonmkb said:


> What if the renter refuses a travel credit?  Will my only choice be a chargeback from the cc?


If you are leery of the credit, which is understandable, and the Resort was closed during your Reservation, it seems the only path to reimburse yourself is via a chargeback, IMO. Since the broker chose to have cc payouts come exclusively to his company and his account, the Owner will only be impacted if the Owner chooses to refund the broker the portion they've been paid.


----------



## foreUT

Deb & Bill said:


> At a minimum, if my points expired or were expiring before they could be used,  I would keep enough money to pay my fees on the points I rented but could not use.  Then hold the rest of the money for the renter and not send it to David.


Amen!


----------



## Amymouse13

tallguy001 said:


> Problem here is that the resorts are still closed, seemingly full for the rest of the year, and the details of the credit have not been announced.


Yup so worthless voucher that still depends on some dvc owner booking for me... If any are left that will work with him.

No thanks I'll try dispute resolution.


----------



## philbrody

Amymouse13 said:


> Yup so worthless voucher that still depends on some dvc owner booking for me... If any are left that will work with him.
> 
> No thanks I'll try dispute resolution.



Perhaps not.   If the voucher is in terms of a travel credit paid by the broker it could (and I have not seen T&C) be paid at any type of travel.  DVC, non DVC Disney, not disney, airfare etc.  If the broker has his wits about him he would try to get a reduced rate from a travel agent and take another cut.  I.e. all rebookings are being done by XXX Travel agent and we will remit to them directly


----------



## Amymouse13

philbrody said:


> Perhaps not.   If the voucher is in terms of a travel credit paid by the broker it could (and I have not seen T&C) be paid at any type of travel.  DVC, non DVC Disney, not disney, airfare etc.  If the broker has his wits about him he would try to get a reduced rate from a travel agent and take another cut.  I.e. all rebookings are being done by XXX Travel agent and we will remit to them directly



Still depends on David paying... And paying with what money?  I'm not seeing the magical pot of gold.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> Yup so worthless voucher that still depends on some dvc owner booking for me... If any are left that will work with him.
> 
> No thanks I'll try dispute resolution.


I would do the same.


----------



## Nennie

I don't understand why David's is telling the renters that it will takes weeks to provide them with the details of their credit.  They keep saying they are overwhelmed with emails, but when each email David's sends only provides vague answers, the result is just more emails coming right back to them!


----------



## Sandisw

Nennie said:


> I don't understand why David's is telling the renters that it will takes weeks to provide them with the details of their credit.  They keep saying they are overwhelmed with emails, but when each email David's sends only provides vague answers, the result is just more emails coming right back to them!



Maybe he can’t give details because he is trying to get a feel of how many owners are out there willing to rent points again?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

[


Nennie said:


> I don't understand why David's is telling the renters that it will takes weeks to provide them with the details of their credit.  They keep saying they are overwhelmed with emails, but when each email David's sends only provides vague answers, the result is just more emails coming right back to them!



This is how communication has been the entire time in my experience. Vague, slow to respond, and canned answers.

I understand they are overwhelmed. I’m sure they are genuinely trying and not purposely screwing people over. But I’m tempted to comment on their Facebook posts for all the people with April, May, and even later reservations not to hold their breath, our check in date was within the first couple days of the closure and we’ve barely made progress. They keep telling people with later reservations to sit tight they’re going in order.


----------



## MICKIMINI

Amymouse13 said:


> Don't owners have contact info?  I just have names but they aren't unique enough


Yes, name, address, phone and email.  Owners have the info because they make the reservation for the broker.  Renters only have the name(s) of the owners.


----------



## DVCindy

foreUT said:


> I understand the downsides to making direct contact, but at this stage, IMO, trying to make the innocent parties on both sides of the equation, you and the Renter, as satisfied as possible, based on the situation, would be best. If you're resigned to never receiving your remaining payout, I'd contact them. You might be able to make someone happy.  JMHO



I am considering it at this point.  I feel like David's is not even offering this option to the renters because their communications seem to indicate to me that their primary concern is to generate cash flow for themselves with these "Travel Credits".  I would like to rebook for my renters - it appears that my points will all be returned to my Oct  UY if DVC sticks to the current plan as outlined in their recent email, so I will have a good amount of flexibility for rebooking.


----------



## momincolorado

philbrody said:


> Perhaps not.   If the voucher is in terms of a travel credit paid by the broker it could (and I have not seen T&C) be paid at any type of travel.  DVC, non DVC Disney, not disney, airfare etc.  If the broker has his wits about him he would try to get a reduced rate from a travel agent and take another cut.  I.e. all rebookings are being done by XXX Travel agent and we will remit to them directly



I don’t need airfare, tickets etc. Even our food costs have already been covered (discounted gift cards). All I need is accommodation. And the fact of the matter is that if he’s asking owners to send the money back then he needs to pass it on to the renter not come up with some vague travel credit scheme that leaves everyone wondering what that even entails. Once refunded, I can take it from there and book my own accommodation.


----------



## draw

I rented my points to a family with a small child. The reservation was end of March and I was asked to cancel for them.  As we all know for a young family going to Disney is a milestone and expensive endeavor. I cancelled and rebooked another reservation for Davids under a different family. Davids will reimbursing family number one and I still get all my money.  I was happy to work with them and feel good that family number one is not out money along with a dream vacation. I have been renting my points to Davids for years and not only have they been timely responding to my questions this week but very professional this month and in the previous 7 years I have been using them.  I just wanted to share my experience with Davids.  Stay safe


----------



## Sandisw

draw said:


> I rented my points to a family with a small child. The reservation was end of March and I was asked to cancel for them.  As we all know for a young family going to Disney is a milestone and expensive endeavor. I cancelled and rebooked another reservation for Davids under a different family. Davids will reimbursing family number one and I still get all my money.  I was happy to work with them and feel good that family number one is not out money along with a dream vacation. I have been renting my points to Davids for years and not only have they been timely responding to my questions this week but very professional this month and in the previous 7 years I have been using them.  I just wanted to share my experience with Davids.  Stay safe



Are you sure family number one is getting their money back? Because that is not what his email to owners is saying.  The renters only get a travel credit,


----------



## foreUT

DVCindy said:


> I am considering it at this point.  I feel like David's is not even offering this option to the renters because their communications seem to indicate to me that their primary concern is to generate cash flow for themselves with these "Travel Credits".  I would like to rebook for my renters - it appears that my points will all be returned to my Oct  UY if DVC sticks to the current plan as outlined in their recent email, so I will have a good amount of flexibility for rebooking.


I think that's extremely commendable of you and very generous to provide such a wide range of dates. I hope the best for you and your Renter.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> Are you sure family number one is getting their money back? Because that is not what his email to owners is saying.  The renters only get a travel credit,



In that scenario I think the money does go to the renter (when their owner gets their points back and rebooks with another party). At least that is what David’s has told me will happen.

The credit seems to kick in when points are close to expiry, or expire before they can be booked.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> In that scenario I think the money does go to the renter (when their owner gets their points back and rebooks with another party). At least that is what David’s has told me will happen.
> 
> The credit seems to kick in when points are close to expiry, or expire before they can be booked.



Okay, but if owners send back the money..don't re rent points...why does he keep it?

It makes no sense that one renter gets money back and another doesn’t if David’s actually gets cash back...whether it’s from a new renter or from the original owner,

Yeah, I’m pretty sure my one time renting with him will be it.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> Okay, but if owners send back the money..don't re rent points...why does he keep it?
> 
> It makes no sense that one renter gets money back and another doesn’t if David’s actually gets cash back...whether it’s from a new renter or from the original owner,
> 
> Yeah, I’m pretty sure my one time renting with him will be it.



Oh I totally agree with you, if money comes back because the owner was willing to send it, it should 100% be passed along to the renter no matter the condition of the points. If an owner is actually willing to do that, David’s should IMO consider themselves lucky, send their portion back to the renter and consider that one cleared.

Just passing along how they explained the difference between a refund and a credit to me. My guess is it’ll probably also be a credit if the renter doesn’t push the issue and accepts that.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Just my thought - but when most companies are about to go out of business how do they behave ? Vague emails ? Promises to give ? No replies to direct questions ? This company is showing signs that can’t be ignored of a business in dire straits. A company that had stellar customer service to now have sunk so low and is grasping at straws - I think is trying desperately to just hang on 
I for one have 3 rentals pending 
April 
June 
Sept 
I don’t expect my 30% on any of them 
2 are for a lot of points - I don’t feel it’s fair to screw the renter but I may lose money in this 
I also rented from him but I plan on seeking a remedy for that myself since he won’t work with me 
I have read this whole post and keep up with it - it really reads like a company about to go under you may want to consider this when you think about what you are going to  do . I know I would Never take his word again not his credit voucher 
Just my thought 
I wish everyone the best of luck and the best outcome I am so sorry we are all in this as it stinks !!


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

I actually think the travel credit approach is understandable, even if I don't personally like it. Stick with me here. 

I've been following this thread for the last week or so with much interest. I'm a first time renter with a 10 day split stay (Beach Club/Poly) scheduled to begin June 5th. Naturally I'm quite anxious given the enormous sum of money we shelled out for this trip. This would be our children's (8 & 11) first trip to Disney World.

It goes without saying that I'm personally most concerned about how renters are making out in the process, but I do sincerely feel for everyone involved, including owners and David's. 

It seems the prevailing sentiment is that David's is being underhanded in the process. I can understand that sentiment to a degree, but I suspect David's is very much clinging to staying in business at this point and trying to walk an incredibly narrow tightrope of alienating as few owners/renters as possible. Obviously a lot of people are upset that they are asking for owners to return funds and offering renters credit rather than a refund. While I have zero inside knowledge on the subject, I find it doubtful that David's has the liquidity (ie, cash) to refund all impacted renters, even where some owners have been able/willing to return funds. Were I operating David's I would probably take the same approach, hoping that conditions improve and eventually all renters can be accommodated. 

As a renter, should the resorts not reopen by early June, I'm very skeptical of the credit offer, while understanding objectively that David's almost certainly is not able to refund everyone and stay in business. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a credit, assuming it could be used for a year or more out (we had a very tight travel window for this year). But a travel credit is only worthwhile to me if David's stays in business, and I think that's very much in question at the moment.

So, ultimately, I don't blame David's at all for taking the travel credit approach. However, should I personally find myself in the position of having to decide, I would lean towards asking for a full refund, and if/when that is denied, attempting the charge back approach.


----------



## fsjking

Sandisw said:


> Okay, but if owners send back the money..don't re rent points...why does he keep it?



It'll go to whoever books the travel credit reservation for the renter later. He can't refund and give a credit for a future reservation. In theory the math works. The 70% the original owner returns to David's ends up getting sent to the next owner for the renter. This way David's can hold on to his commission for operating expenses. But that ignores availability, chargebacks, Renters unwilling to rebook, owners unwilling/unable to work with him, dvc's decision about banking rules and probably 1000 other things. All being said, what I'm reading about how they are handling this deal doesn't give me much confidence on them staying in business much longer.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> It'll go to whoever books the travel credit reservation for the renter later. He can't refund and give a credit for a future reservation. In theory the math works. The 70% the original owner returns to David's ends up getting sent to the next owner for the renter. This way David's can hold on to his commission for operating expenses. But that ignores availability, chargebacks, Renters unwilling to rebook, owners unwilling/unable to work with him, dvc's decision about banking rules and probably 1000 other things. All being said, what I'm reading about how they are handling this deal doesn't give me much confidence on them staying in business much longer.



Yeah, I’m not confident either.  But, I still think that if an owner refunds, those funds belong to the renter,  They should be given the choice of a travel credit or the money IF the owner actual refunds,

If the owner offers to rebook, even for another renter, then I can see the renter getting the credit.  But a renter shouldn’t be given a credit when the owner their reservation was with has actually provided a refund.

Shady in my book.  And, I’d venture to guess the renter is not told the owner Sent money back


----------



## fsjking

Sandisw said:


> Yeah, I’m not confident either.  But, I still think that if an owner refunds, those funds belong to the renter,  They should be given the choice of a travel credit or the money IF the owner actual refunds,
> 
> If the owner offers to rebook, even for another renter, then I can see the renter getting the credit.  But a renter shouldn’t be given a credit when the owner their reservation was with has actually provided a refund.
> 
> Shady in my book.  And, I’d venture to guess the renter is not told the owner Sent money back



Oh I agree completely. Between that and the Facebook shenanigans, there's no confidence that they can be trusted. I understand why it's happening though. He has the "no refunds" clause to fall back on and can act like he's doing them a favor with the rebook. The question will be, will he have enough liquidity to cover the rebooks on the ones with owners who don't refund/rebook. If he does, maybe he just survives this.


----------



## Krandor

Nennie said:


> I don't understand why David's is telling the renters that it will takes weeks to provide them with the details of their credit.  They keep saying they are overwhelmed with emails, but when each email David's sends only provides vague answers, the result is just more emails coming right back to them!



I think it is pretty clear.  He's getting a bunch of chargebacks right now (and more that are going to come in) and doesn't have enough cash on hand to pay them.  So he needs the money from the owner to cover those chargebacks and stay afloat.   That leaves no money to honor this travel voucher right now.   The last thing he can afford is a bunch of people saying "I'll go on and use my voucher for a trip in January" (or whenever) because then he'd ALSO now have to pay for those points which he can't do right now.   It is also likely these travel credits are also going to be SUPER limited and once renters see the details and realize "I can't use this" then bang more chargebacks.  Right now he's trying to appease renters with this voucher but I don't think the reality is going to be to their liking.  So giving details and even allowing these vouchers to be used right now he just can't do.  

David's is building a house of cards right now.  He's banking on being able to get enough owners to return the 70% and enough renters not to be able to use the vouchers (and not chargeback).  

All speculation but it is the scenario that makes the most sense.


----------



## Krandor

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> So, ultimately, I don't blame David's at all for taking the travel credit approach. However, should I personally find myself in the position of having to decide, I would lean towards asking for a full refund, and if/when that is denied, attempting the charge back approach.



I get why they are doing it as well.  I'm neither a renter or an owner and am following this thread out of interest.  The problem I have David's stance here is that this was an unusual situation and nobody deliberately did anything wrong.  However David's is asking renters to sactifice by getting some nebuloud credit they may or may not be able to use and he's asking owners to sacrifice by keeping their 30% and asking for 70% back.  Nowhere is David saying he's giving anything up.  If David's mentioned he was giving up half his commission or something that would do a long way but he's asking everybody else to sacrifice while he gets to keep all the money. I understand why he's doing it (likely has no choice) but i don't like the tactic.  In the end he's likely going to wind up screwing both owners and renters.


----------



## karpy111

Krandor said:


> I think it is pretty clear.  He's getting a bunch of chargebacks right now (and more that are going to come in) and doesn't have enough cash on hand to pay them.  So he needs the money from the owner to cover those chargebacks and stay afloat.   That leaves no money to honor this travel voucher right now.   The last thing he can afford is a bunch of people saying "I'll go on and use my voucher for a trip in January" (or whenever) because then he'd ALSO now have to pay for those points which he can't do right now.   It is also likely these travel credits are also going to be SUPER limited and once renters see the details and realize "I can't use this" then bang more chargebacks.  Right now he's trying to appease renters with this voucher but I don't think the reality is going to be to their liking.  So giving details and even allowing these vouchers to be used right now he just can't do.
> 
> David's is building a house of cards right now.  He's banking on being able to get enough owners to return the 70% and enough renters not to be able to use the vouchers (and not chargeback).
> 
> All speculation but it is the scenario that makes the most sense.


Sorry.  Im trying to read older post to get caught up to date but what are charge backs???

Thanks


----------



## Krandor

karpy111 said:


> Sorry.  Im trying to read older post to get caught up to date but what are charge backs???
> 
> Thanks



If you order something with a credit card and the product isn't delivered satisfactorally you can dispute the charge with the credit card company. One advantage of using a CC. This is referred to as a chargeback. 

If I rented points during this period the resorts are shut down, I wouldn't wait on this credit from David.  I'd be calling my credit card company today.


----------



## karpy111

Thank you for the advice.  What would you do about gift cards used to purchase the dining plan??


----------



## starry_solo

karpy111 said:


> Thank you for the advice.  What would you do about gift cards used to purchase the dining plan??



The dining plan should be cancelled with the resort reservation but send an email to David's and remind him to contact the DVC owner to cancel the dining plan independently, if possible.  As soon as the refunds post to the gift cards, TRANSFER the money to new gift cards.


----------



## Krandor

starry_solo said:


> The dining plan should be cancelled with the resort reservation but send an email to David's and remind him to contact the DVC owner to cancel the dining plan independently, if possible.  As soon as the refunds post to the gift cards, TRANSFER the money to new gift cards.



I thought I read somewhere where refunds to gift card were being done by issuing NEW gift cards since people may not still have the original gift cards anymore.  I assume that card would go to the owner?


----------



## starry_solo

Krandor said:


> I thought I read somewhere where refunds to gift card were being done by issuing NEW gift cards since people may not still have the original gift cards anymore.  I assume that card would go to the owner?



They only provide new gift cards if someone tells them - when cancelling the plan - that they no longer have the original gift cards in their possession.  That would typically happen when cancelling via phone.  If online, no one to talk to, so it'll go back to the original form of payment.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

One of my renters paid for their dining plan with gift cards I was told my DVC to advise them to hold onto their gift cards in case anything happens (surprise ) I sent the advise along to David’s when I told them I had booked their dining.


----------



## kris24

I had a March trip that was cancelled that I had rented points through David’s.  Well since renting the points I actually became an owner.  I asked David’s if the owner of my rented points would either do a transfer or rebook and I would bank my points.  Not once has he told me if the owners would be willing to do either.  I don’t want my owner to have to give any money back.  Really wish I could work directly with owner.


----------



## Amymouse13

kris24 said:


> I had a March trip that was cancelled that I had rented points through David’s.  Well since renting the points I actually became an owner.  I asked David’s if the owner of my rented points would either do a transfer or rebook and I would bank my points.  Not once has he told me if the owners would be willing to do either.  I don’t want my owner to have to give any money back.  Really wish I could work directly with owner.



Wait so he's not even getting through March reservations yet??  Wonder what they do all day?  Post pictures of Disney on Facebook? Haha

Based on being told weeks to sort out this voucher thing, charge back seems better bet...


----------



## Krandor

Amymouse13 said:


> Wait so he's not even getting through March reservations yet??  Wonder what they do all day?  Post pictures of Disney on Facebook? Haha



Sounds like delete any posts that complain.


----------



## momincolorado

Amymouse13 said:


> Wait so he's not even getting through March reservations yet??  Wonder what they do all day?  Post pictures of Disney on Facebook? Haha
> 
> Based on being told weeks to sort out this voucher thing, charge back seems better bet...



I have a March reservation, check in day was supposed to be today. The latest thing I got from them was the “amazing” travel credit e-mail that they sent out to all renters on Thursday. I have not heard anything further. I did e-mail them this morning but received no response.


----------



## Krandor

momincolorado said:


> I have a March reservation, check in day was supposed to be today. The latest thing I got from them was the “amazing” travel credit e-mail that they sent out to all renters on Thursday. I have not heard anything further. I did e-mail them this morning but received no response.



Until they have the details of the credit (likely a month or two away) that is probably all you'll hear.


----------



## MichellT

If David is asking owners to sacrifice and renters to sacrifice, without giving up any of his own 30%, then that is bad business.  I have never used David's but I think he provides a needed marketplace to connect DVC owners with renters.  That is worth something unless the connection itself becomes worthless, for example if renters can't take the trips due to external forces.

I have rented from individuals and I rent some of our points out most years as well.  We had some renters affected by the closing, and I worked with all of them to hunt down new dates that worked for them in the fall and beyond.  In some cases I refunded points if the new reservation required less than the old points -- one reservation cost more by a few points and I borrowed in to make that one happen.  In another case I banked points into my next UY and booked into the future for the renters.  

That's called servicing the reservation and I would a "professional" to do the same.


----------



## fsjking

MichellT said:


> If David is asking owners to sacrifice and renters to sacrifice, without giving up any of his own 30%, then that is bad business.  I have never used David's but I think he provides a needed marketplace to connect DVC owners with renters.  That is worth something unless the connection itself becomes worthless, for example if renters can't take the trips due to external forces.
> 
> I have rented from individuals and I rent some of our points out most years as well.  We had some renters affected by the closing, and I worked with all of them to hunt down new dates that worked for them in the fall and beyond.  In some cases I refunded points if the new reservation required less than the old points -- one reservation cost more by a few points and I borrowed in to make that one happen.  In another case I banked points into my next UY and booked into the future for the renters.
> 
> That's called servicing the reservation and I would a "professional" to do the same.



I think the problem is some owners are probably saying "too bad, no refunds" and some renters have done chargebacks. If everyone was like you and in your points situation, this thread probably doesn't exist.


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## OurDogCisco

I emailed David and said that I was willing to return all the funds but in return I wanted a letter written up that I'm terminated from any liability with the renter and David and I would need signatures for both parties.  I did that on Sunday afternoon and I haven't received a response back.  I have 3 rentals out there.  I'm willing to give the money back but I'd prefer to give it to the renter.  I want to contact the renters but I'm afraid they will be upset or not willing to work with me.  I can only give back what he gave me.  I don't know what to do and the response from David's company is vague.  Every email is responded with a vague response.  I talked to a lawyer neighbor about it but he was like this is new situation.  Who knows what the right legal thing to do?  Do you think renters want to be contacted?


----------



## starry_solo

OurDogCisco said:


> I emailed David and said that I was willing to return all the funds but in return I wanted a letter written up that I'm terminated from any liability with the renter and David and I would need signatures for both parties.  I did that on Sunday afternoon and I haven't received a response back.  I have 3 rentals out there.  I'm willing to give the money back but I'd prefer to give it to the renter.  I want to contact the renters but I'm afraid they will be upset or not willing to work with me.  I can only give back what he gave me.  I don't know what to do and the response from David's company is vague.  Every email is responded with a vague response.  I talked to a lawyer neighbor about it but he was like this is new situation.  Who knows what the right legal thing to do?  Do you think renters want to be contacted?



does your contract with David prohibit you from contacting the renters directly?


----------



## OurDogCisco

starry_solo said:


> does your contract with David prohibit you from contacting the renters directly?


I'm not sure.  Let me read it.


----------



## OurDogCisco

starry_solo said:


> does your contract with David prohibit you from contacting the renters directly?


I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect.  It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel.  So I must pay him back.  But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area.  I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April.  So at that point I have to return the money.  Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can.  I'll never rent through him again.  Never... Never...


----------



## meryll83

Krandor said:


> If you order something with a credit card and the product isn't delivered satisfactorally you can dispute the charge with the credit card company. One advantage of using a CC. This is referred to as a chargeback.
> 
> If I rented points during this period the resorts are shut down, I wouldn't wait on this credit from David.  I'd be calling my credit card company today.


I’m starting to wonder if I should pursue this now, still haven’t had any contact that relates directly to our rental reservation, and maybe won’t for a while as we’re mid April.
I’ve had generic replies referring to WDW, but our reservation is for the Grand Californian at Disneyland...

We’re in the U.K. and haven’t got a lot of flexibility on ability to rebook, so not happy with the prospect of a credit.

But what would my credit card company expect me to be able to evidence? I’m not sure the lack of personalised comms or mid April date will help me here, combined with their no refunds policy... does anyone have any advice?


----------



## LAX

Krandor said:


> I get why they are doing it as well.  I'm neither a renter or an owner and am following this thread out of interest.  The problem I have David's stance here is that this was an unusual situation and nobody deliberately did anything wrong.  However David's is asking renters to sactifice by getting some nebuloud credit they may or may not be able to use and he's asking owners to sacrifice by keeping their 30% and asking for 70% back.  *Nowhere is David saying he's giving anything up.*  If David's mentioned he was giving up half his commission or something that would do a long way but he's asking everybody else to sacrifice while he gets to keep all the money. I understand why he's doing it (likely has no choice) but i don't like the tactic.  In the end he's likely going to wind up screwing both owners and renters.



I am troubled by this as well. He is asking owners & renters to "sacrifice", but what about his share? I think the way he has been handling this will likely end the business even if he survives this cash crunch.

LAX


----------



## karpy111

OurDogCisco said:


> I'm not sure.  Let me read it.


I have the owners name on my contract.  Is there anyway i could find out their phone number or email?


----------



## McCrae

draw said:


> I rented my points to a family with a small child. The reservation was end of March and I was asked to cancel for them.  As we all know for a young family going to Disney is a milestone and expensive endeavor. I cancelled and rebooked another reservation for Davids under a different family. Davids will reimbursing family number one and I still get all my money.  I was happy to work with them and feel good that family number one is not out money along with a dream vacation. I have been renting my points to Davids for years and not only have they been timely responding to my questions this week but very professional this month and in the previous 7 years I have been using them.  I just wanted to share my experience with Davids.  Stay safe



If David’s were going to pay my renters the cash back I would be thinking differently about them. In my case the original renters would only get a travel voucher. If I returned the cash to David’s it would go in his pocket rather than being returned to the renter.


----------



## McCrae

meryll83 said:


> I’m starting to wonder if I should pursue this now, still haven’t had any contact that relates directly to our rental reservation, and maybe won’t for a while as we’re mid April.
> I’ve had generic replies referring to WDW, but our reservation is for the Grand Californian at Disneyland...
> 
> We’re in the U.K. and haven’t got a lot of flexibility on ability to rebook, so not happy with the prospect of a credit.
> 
> But what would my credit card company expect me to be able to evidence? I’m not sure the lack of personalised comms or mid April date will help me here, combined with their no refunds policy... does anyone have any advice?



Normally it’s relatively easy to do a charge back with the  credit card company. When your trip is cancelled you do not need to accept a credit voucher. You need to demand a refund to your credit card from David’s. Do this by email, you may need a written record of your correspondence with them. Only if you have not been able to get a refund from David’s would a credit card company look at providing you with a refund. The refund process will take a few weeks to be completed.  When I have had to do this I found the credit card companies to be very helpful. They give the impression they want to help.


----------



## McCrae

OurDogCisco said:


> I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect.  It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel.  So I must pay him back.  But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area.  I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April.  So at that point I have to return the money.  Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can.  I'll never rent through him again.  Never... Never...


You don’t have to return anything. It’s voluntary.


----------



## Cyberc1978

I'm wondering what recourse David's would have if any towards owners? If renters just did a charge back. I mean if owners saying we are keeping the money but we may or may not rebook depending on the expiration of the points then David's will be out the money and the 70% almost twice the amount.

Charge back rules are different in each country, I've read that in the U.S you need to do it with 6 months, in my country I have to do it no later than 13 months from purchase. However i'm not allowed to wait if I know that i'm not getting what I purchased, then I need to file it asap. If I do it later than 3 or 4 months after purchase I think the credit card company (banks in my country) will be on the hook for the money. Thats why they of course prefer you to file the charge back as early as possible.


----------



## Amymouse13

fsjking said:


> I think the problem is some owners are probably saying "too bad, no refunds" and some renters have done chargebacks. If everyone was like you and in your points situation, this thread probably doesn't exist.



Well because David's isn't actually providing any real information to renters, rightfully so, weeks after contacting them I'm frustrated.  I can't contact my owners either.  One reservation for mid April has been cancelled but nothing regarding refund or attempt to rebook.  Zero information about other 4 nights that still show on my Disney.  So yeah he's lack of communication leaves folks with no other option than chargebacks.  

The first reservation was done using Citibank and you can dispute online.  The second reservation I had to call bank of America business, but oddly that was more comforting- though I'm that case my reservation was cancelled weeks ago and I was not refunded or rebooked (so clearly no goods delivered).  Boa said not to worry they are handling many similar situations and will start working on this right away.  

David's cannot expect folks to wait months while he sorts out his voucher system.  Especially when we are talking about $4000.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Amymouse13 said:


> Well because David's isn't actually providing any real information to renters, rightfully so, weeks after contacting them I'm frustrated.  I can't contact my owners either.  One reservation for mid April has been cancelled but nothing regarding refund or attempt to rebook.  Zero information about other 4 nights that still show on my Disney.  So yeah he's lack of communication leaves folks with no other option than chargebacks.
> 
> The first reservation was done using Citibank and you can dispute online.  The second reservation I had to call bank of America business, but oddly that was more comforting- though I'm that case my reservation was cancelled weeks ago and I was not refunded or rebooked (so clearly no goods delivered).  Boa said not to worry they are handling many similar situations and will start working on this right away.
> 
> David's cannot expect folks to wait months while he sorts out his voucher system.  Especially when we are talking about $4000.



Renters that have used David's or rented privately are in this sort of situation. Renters can do a charge back with those that used Paypal but how will that impact owners except for a balance in overdraft. Its different for those where Paypal can charge their Bank accounts directly.

With that said private rentals can work directly with the owner, to find a solution. However in cases where points are expiring there is really not much the owner can do (not going into discussion about what may or may not be a breach of contract) 

Anyhow the rental marked privately or through a broker will change after this.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> Well because David's isn't actually providing any real information to renters, rightfully so, weeks after contacting them I'm frustrated.  I can't contact my owners either.  One reservation for mid April has been cancelled but nothing regarding refund or attempt to rebook.  Zero information about other 4 nights that still show on my Disney.  So yeah he's lack of communication leaves folks with no other option than chargebacks.
> 
> The first reservation was done using Citibank and you can dispute online.  The second reservation I had to call bank of America business, but oddly that was more comforting- though I'm that case my reservation was cancelled weeks ago and I was not refunded or rebooked (so clearly no goods delivered).  Boa said not to worry they are handling many similar situations and will start working on this right away.
> 
> David's cannot expect folks to wait months while he sorts out his voucher system.  Especially when we are talking about $4000.


I agree with your thoughts on David’s.  Credit card charge back is the smart thing to do. Regardless what option you take you will wait months for this to be resolved.  I had to wait 3 months for a refund after one of the airlines I booked with went bust.


----------



## toniosmom

I have a rental scheduled for check-in on April 2nd.  DVC has not yet cancelled the reservation, even though they said they would be cancelling all reservations on a week-by-week basis.  I assumed this reservation would have been cancelled by now and don't want to cancel it myself because of my contract as an owner with David's.  I was also under the assumption that renters would be getting a travel credit in the case where owners would be unable/unwilling to refund the money.  I don't see any evidence or proof that this is or is not happening.  I have always had a great working relationship with David's and will continue to do business with them until I see proof that they are not doing right by their clients (both owners and renters).  This is a herculean undertaking and I think we need to be sympathetic to the difficulty.  Is it frustrating not being able to contact anyone, absolutely!  But, be happy that we are all healthy enough to be sitting here at our computers browsing through these forums.  Put it in perspective.  It'll all shake out in the end.  Right now, we're all drinking from the firehose.  Its not easy, but we need some patience.


----------



## heynowirv

rkstocke5609 said:


> Sure, but you likely knew it was something you could do if you couldn’t use your points at some point.  I’m just saying that resale buyers will know about all the people that got screwed out of their money because of the virus and renting points will be considered risky in the future — hence not a valuable part of owning points.  I’ve heard of people that own twice as many points as they need that rent half of them to cover maintenance fees....


Actually we didn't. It wasn't until years later that we were in that situation that we found out.


----------



## philbrody

I roughed out some numbers last night and I don't think this is nearly as dire as people are making it out to be.  Lots of assumptions but I don't think I'm far off.  Start with for a 6 week period (mid march to end of April) David has 10k points he's brokered.  Out of that hes collected 200k, kept 45k, payed owners 108K and has 47k sitting in an account for check in day.  I'm also assuming a 50% margin on the business meaning 22k of the 45K is profit.

If  you assume 1/3 can be rebooked,  then take 2/3 of all the above numbers.  132 collected, 30 kept, payed 71 and 31 sitting in an account.   Out of the 132 liability now there is essentially 46 cash. the 31 not paid to owners and profit margin on the 30.  so the cash needed is 86 at the most.  Reduce the liability by 30% for owners who return payments and renters who take a voucher which is either for less value of never used.  Leaves about 60k in liability.  Now if 7 weeks equates to 22k in profit then you are looking at using the margin for another 21 weeks to cover the liability.    Employees still paid, it's the 50% margin you are eating into and with bookings out 11 months covering 4 months is not the end of the world.


----------



## CanAdianDad

philbrody said:


> I roughed out some numbers last night and I don't think this is nearly as dire as people are making it out to be.  Lots of assumptions but I don't think I'm far off.  Start with for a 6 week period (mid march to end of April) David has 10k points he's brokered.  Out of that hes collected 200k, kept 45k, payed owners 108K and has 47k sitting in an account for check in day.  I'm also assuming a 50% margin on the business meaning 22k of the 45K is profit.
> 
> If  you assume 1/3 can be rebooked,  then take 2/3 of all the above numbers.  132 collected, 30 kept, payed 71 and 31 sitting in an account.   Out of the 132 liability now there is essentially 46 cash. the 31 not paid to owners and profit margin on the 30.  so the cash needed is 86 at the most.  Reduce the liability by 30% for owners who return payments and renters who take a voucher which is either for less value of never used.  Leaves about 60k in liability.  Now if 7 weeks equates to 22k in profit then you are looking at using the margin for another 21 weeks to cover the liability.    Employees still paid, it's the 50% margin you are eating into and with bookings out 11 months covering 4 months is not the end of the world.


I could vey we’ll be wrong as this is pure speculation on my part but Based on what I’ve seen on forums and Facebook, I think you are underestimating the brokered points. There are individuals talking about $20k they had put out for a rental. If he employs 35 people even if the majority of them are part time making min wage his salaries alone are likely $500k+ Yearly so just to pay them he’d need about $60k over that 6 week period. I think we are talking hundreds of renters affected with an average of at least $3k per Transaction, (again estimates are based solely off of online comments)


----------



## Cyberc1978

CanAdianDad said:


> I could vey we’ll be wrong as this is pure speculation on my part but Based on what I’ve seen on forums and Facebook, I think you are underestimating the brokered points. There are individuals talking about $20k they had put out for a rental. If he employs 35 people even if the majority of them are part time making min wage his salaries alone are likely $500k+ Yearly so just to pay them he’d need about $60k over that 6 week period. I think we are talking hundreds of renters affected with an average of at least $3k per Transaction, (again estimates are based solely off of online comments)



I actually read elsewhere that David's team is 42 employees. I think this is only the tip of the iceberg, and actual numbers are much higher.


----------



## VeroGuy

CanAdianDad said:


> I could vey we’ll be wrong as this is pure speculation on my part but Based on what I’ve seen on forums and Facebook, I think you are underestimating the brokered points. There are individuals talking about $20k they had put out for a rental. If he employs 35 people even if the majority of them are part time making min wage his salaries alone are likely $500k+ Yearly so just to pay them he’d need about $60k over that 6 week period. I think we are talking hundreds of renters affected with an average of at least $3k per Transaction, (again estimates are based solely off of online comments)



i believe you are right. I have rented with David’s 5 times with an average of around $2400.


----------



## Galun

I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.

Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before.  There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY.  Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY.  Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.

If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this.  Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%.  He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit.  If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.

If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist.  I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad.  However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.  If David’s go under, that 70% I got would be enough to cover my MF, and then I have control in how to try to help the underlying renter.

If David’s go under, the bankruptcy trustee may go after the 70% he paid me for a reservation that had been cancelled.  However I doubt a Canadian judgement is enforceable in the US.  

David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points.  They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months.  They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so.  I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market.   David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback.  I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage.  If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges.  If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either.   In theory they can survive the chargebacks.

This is a cash flow / liquidity issue.  They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now).   Large companies have credit lines for this reason.  I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model.   I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.

Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.


----------



## CraigInPA

OurDogCisco said:


> I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect.  It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel.  So I must pay him back.  But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area.  I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April.  So at that point I have to return the money.  Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can.  I'll never rent through him again.  Never... Never...



Who says you have to return the money? David's is ASKING for a return of the money or the opportunity to re-use the points for a new booking because he KNOWS that he has no legal leg to stand on regarding points he rented from you. If you can get your points back and re-use them, then let your conscience be your guide regarding a refund. If you get back points that are worthless because they can't be used or banked, then tell him no refund AND he owes you the last payment of 30%. As many others have pointed out, if you let him re-rent your points you will not receive the final payment that he withheld until check-in day.


----------



## Amymouse13

Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.
> 
> Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before.  There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY.  Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY.  Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.
> 
> If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this.  Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%.  He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit.  If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.
> 
> If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist.  I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad.  However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.
> 
> David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points.  They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months.  They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so.  I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market.   David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback.  I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage.  If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges.  If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either.   In theory they can survive the chargebacks.
> 
> This is a cash flow / liquidity issue.  They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now).   Large companies have credit lines for this reason.  I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model.   I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.
> 
> Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.



I think you ignore the fact that possibly 50% of small businesses will go out of business.  This disrupts jobs for not only the owner but all the employees.  If the owners have no money left and no credit, they won't be reopening.  I think the concept that everything will just bounce back is overly optimistic.  Some mortgage companies are giving 90 days but at end you owe all three months.  If you were out of work where does money come from?


----------



## Galun

Amymouse13 said:


> I think you ignore the fact that possibly 50% of small businesses will go out of business.  This disrupts jobs for not only the owner but all the employees.  If the owners have no money left and no credit, they won't be reopening.  I think the concept that everything will just bounce back is overly optimistic.  Some mortgage companies are giving 90 days but at end you owe all three months.  If you were out of work where does money come from?



It’s certainly possible but I don’t think it’s probable.  The government just injected 2 trillion into the economy at an unprecedented pace, and they signaled that the help would be basically unlimited.  They recognize that it’s a cash flow issue.  The new paycheck protection loans, specifically targeted toward small businesses with les than 500 employees, requires no personal guarantee, little to no underwriting (you can get the cash in as quick as a week), and covers 2.5 months of payroll / rent / utilities.  If you are a small business, the feds just covered your fixed cost for 2.5 months, and possibly longer if this continues.

I don’t think it’s a V shape rebound but I think the doom and gloom scenario is vastly exaggerated.  You see the unemployment numbers spike and news of massive layoffs / furloughs, but that’s so people can get unemployment insurance immediately while all the government stimulus is being sorted out. Just IMO.


----------



## McCrae

Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.
> 
> Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before.  There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY.  Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY.  Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.
> 
> If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this.  Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%.  He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit.  If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.
> 
> If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist.  I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad.  However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.  If David’s go under, that 70% I got would be enough to cover my MF, and then I have control in how to try to help the underlying renter.
> 
> If David’s go under, the bankruptcy trustee may go after the 70% he paid me for a reservation that had been cancelled.  However I doubt a Canadian judgement is enforceable in the US.
> 
> David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points.  They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months.  They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so.  I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market.   David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback.  I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage.  If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges.  If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either.   In theory they can survive the chargebacks.
> 
> This is a cash flow / liquidity issue.  They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now).   Large companies have credit lines for this reason.  I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model.   I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.
> 
> Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.



you follow the example you give for no1. David will receive the benefits of two commissions


Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.
> 
> Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before.  There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY.  Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY.  Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.
> 
> If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this.  Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%.  He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit.  If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.
> 
> If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist.  I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad.  However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.  If David’s go under, that 70% I got would be enough to cover my MF, and then I have control in how to try to help the underlying renter.
> 
> If David’s go under, the bankruptcy trustee may go after the 70% he paid me for a reservation that had been cancelled.  However I doubt a Canadian judgement is enforceable in the US.
> 
> David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points.  They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months.  They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so.  I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market.   David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback.  I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage.  If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges.  If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either.   In theory they can survive the chargebacks.
> 
> This is a cash flow / liquidity issue.  They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now).   Large companies have credit lines for this reason.  I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model.   I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.
> 
> Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.



In option 1. David is keeping any cash that is refunded. I would be more likely to accept option 1. If the original renter was directly benefiting. I am also disappointed that David’s won’t consider other options, such as  rebooking for the original owner or the transfer of points.  I can see how David’s business could be at risk due to lack of future rentals. In the short term its not so clear what losses he would face. His own business insurance could cover him for much of this.


----------



## foreUT

Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.
> 
> Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before.  There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY.  Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY.  Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.
> 
> If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this.  Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%.  He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit.  If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.
> 
> If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist.  I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad.  However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.  If David’s go under, that 70% I got would be enough to cover my MF, and then I have control in how to try to help the underlying renter.
> 
> If David’s go under, the bankruptcy trustee may go after the 70% he paid me for a reservation that had been cancelled.  However I doubt a Canadian judgement is enforceable in the US.
> 
> David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points.  They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months.  They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so.  I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market.   David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback.  I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage.  If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges.  If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either.   In theory they can survive the chargebacks.
> 
> This is a cash flow / liquidity issue.  They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now).   Large companies have credit lines for this reason.  I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model.   I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.
> 
> Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.


I respectfully disagree about the Renters' ability to win a chargeback. I know of numerous cases of Owners of vacation rentals w, supposedly, non-refundable contracts that lost chargebacks for much flimsier situations than this. You only have to go to a Community Forum on VR sites to read accounts of that happening. Personally, if I was a Renter or an Owner, I'd be demanding what that commission promised: and, in the case of the Renter, he should have a trip or his money, not a possibly worthless travel credit. After 15 years of very lucrative commissions, I don't understand why both Renters and Owners aren't being made whole by the broker.


----------



## CraigInPA

philbrody said:


> I roughed out some numbers last night and I don't think this is nearly as dire as people are making it out to be.  Lots of assumptions but I don't think I'm far off.  Start with for a 6 week period (mid march to end of April) David has 10k points he's brokered.  Out of that hes collected 200k, kept 45k, payed owners 108K and has 47k sitting in an account for check in day.  I'm also assuming a 50% margin on the business meaning 22k of the 45K is profit.
> 
> If  you assume 1/3 can be rebooked,  then take 2/3 of all the above numbers.  132 collected, 30 kept, payed 71 and 31 sitting in an account.   Out of the 132 liability now there is essentially 46 cash. the 31 not paid to owners and profit margin on the 30.  so the cash needed is 86 at the most.  Reduce the liability by 30% for owners who return payments and renters who take a voucher which is either for less value of never used.  Leaves about 60k in liability.  Now if 7 weeks equates to 22k in profit then you are looking at using the margin for another 21 weeks to cover the liability.    Employees still paid, it's the 50% margin you are eating into and with bookings out 11 months covering 4 months is not the end of the world.



I think your figures grossly underestimate the volume of David's business. He says he has 40 employees. Assuming he is 100% virtual office with no overhead whatsoever, and paying his 40 part time employees minimum wage, he needs to rent more than 10k points every month just to break even. Let's pick 20k, giving him a 50% margin and something to pay himself. 

For 6 weeks of outage, he has rented 30k points for a total of  $540k. Of that, $305k has already been sent to the owners, leaving $235k. His wages for the period (using the minimum wage model and $15k for himself) are $55k, leaving $180k. Of the remaining amount, $90k is earmarked for owners final payment. In theory, he has $90k remaining. In practice, he has the full $180k because he hasn't been paying the owners their final payment. Now, let's see what happens to the renters. Let's assume that 1/3 of the points are able to be re-used, and the renters get a new reservation. The other two groups we'll split 50/50. 50% of the renters refuse to deal with David's any more, and 50% will take a chance on him with travel credits. The 10k points rented by those who want nothing to do with him will generate $180k in charge backs. He has $180k in the bank (in theory). He needs to find $180k to make up the future liability to those renters who got travel vouchers, and he needs to find $45k for the remaining 30% due to the owners who re-rented points through him. So, roughly $1 from every point rental for a year will pay back his future liabilities. That's not terrible, and he could survive this.

But wait... He survived because he didn't pay the owners the last 30% owed to them, and he's telling the owners who may re-rent that they may not get their 30% either. He may have greater liability if a lower number of owners don't want to re-rent through him knowing they won't get the remaining 30%. He's further angered some owners by asking them to refund the 70% already paid. He may have less liability if people don't or can't use the travel vouchers. He could also have a larger liability if the percentage of renters who issue a charge back is higher than 1/3. He could have a very serious problem if the number of owners who now have worthless points or won't re-rent with him is higher than 2/3. He could be funding his future liabilities based upon cash flow, and may not have sufficient funds in the bank to pay for what could be a tsunami of charge backs. 

There are just too many unknown variables, starting with the number of points and ending with the renter and owner's behaviors to accurately model this.

But, you can see why many of us have a belief that David's will not survive.


----------



## Lewisc

philbrody said:


> I roughed out some numbers last night and I don't think this is nearly as dire as people are making it out to be.  Lots of assumptions but I don't think I'm far off.  Start with for a 6 week period (mid march to end of April) David has 10k points he's brokered.  Out of that hes collected 200k, kept 45k, payed owners 108K and has 47k sitting in an account for check in day.  I'm also assuming a 50% margin on the business meaning 22k of the 45K is profit.


Start with you 6 week assumption.  June 1 possible opening suggests at least 10 weeks.  All of your figures came out of thin air.



Cyberc1978 said:


> I actually read elsewhere that David's team is 42 employees. I think this is only the tip of the iceberg, and actual numbers are much higher.



We have no idea if those are 42 full time employees, part time employees or people paid on a commission basis.  That said trying to sort this out, matching members UY limitations with renters desired dates with DVC inventory has to be labor intensive.


Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.
> 
> ......
> 
> Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.


The contract specified a non-refundable payment in exchange for a specific resort reservation.  David's stated in an email the contract became invalid (void) when the reservation was cancelled.  Some posters in this thread disagree.  Do you get a refund if a concert is cancelled?  Even though the ticket says nonrefundable?  Common sense suggests if the actual service being contracted for isn't performed the customer gets a refund.

Most travel insurance excludes coverage for pandemics.  At least one poster is having issues collecting on a CFAR policy.  Polices only insure non-refundable expenses.  A case can be made a refund should be obtained from the supplier instead of from the insurance company.

The annual vaccine for seasonal flu is only  50% effective, or less.  Some people think, I'm not sure of the evidence, COVID is (or will) mutate frustrating vaccines.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Uh, so I tried to call and can’t connect. Is this a high volume of calls or are they disconnected? Apologies if this is not a new development.


----------



## McCrae

I read on David’s Facebook page comments from renters asking about rebooking. I wonder why David is not talking up owners offers to rebook for their renters?


----------



## Brian Noble

If I were a renter with a reservation that has a check-in date that has already passed, I would initiate a chargeback request right now, using the travel voucher email as evidence that the trip was not delivered and the money was not refunded. It might not work, but credit card companies tend to err on the side of their direct customers, because that's who pays the bills.



Cyberc1978 said:


> Charge back rules are different in each country, I've read that in the U.S you need to do it with 6 months



There is a minimum in which the CC issuer is required to offer the opportunity to make a request. In practice some will go longer, especially for customers they want to keep.


----------



## ziravan

OurDogCisco said:


> I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect.  It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel.  So I must pay him back.  But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area.  I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April.  So at that point I have to return the money.  Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can.  I'll never rent through him again.  Never... Never...


I would contact the renters directly, and work to rebook with them or refund them the 70% directly.

At this point, my guess is the renter will jump at being made 70% whole, especially when they know or understand that you aren’t holding the remaining 30%.


----------



## starry_solo

OurDogCisco said:


> I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect.  It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel.  So I must pay him back.  But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area.  I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April.  So at that point I have to return the money.  Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can.  I'll never rent through him again.  Never... Never...



does the contract say you have to return the funds to him? Davids doesn’t seem to be saying that the contract says that (to the owners)
 it seems like he is asking owners to return funds to him but not because the contract requires it


----------



## Krandor

foreUT said:


> I respectfully disagree about the Renters' ability to win a chargeback. I know of numerous cases of Owners of vacation rentals w, supposedly, non-refundable contracts that lost chargebacks for much flimsier situations than this. You only have to go to a Community Forum on VR sites to read accounts of that happening. Personally, if I was a Renter or an Owner, I'd be demanding what that commission promised: and, in the case of the Renter, he should have a trip or his money, not a possibly worthless travel credit. After 15 years of very lucrative commissions, I don't understand why both Renters and Owners aren't being made whole by the broker.



And don't forget Davids has send an email wherehe believes the ccontract with the renter is no longer valid.  If the contract isn't valid, renter shoould get a refund.   I'd include that email with any chargeback request.


----------



## fsjking

Galun said:


> It’s certainly possible but I don’t think it’s probable.  The government just injected 2 trillion into the economy at an unprecedented pace, and they signaled that the help would be basically unlimited.  They recognize that it’s a cash flow issue.  The new paycheck protection loans, specifically targeted toward small businesses with les than 500 employees, requires no personal guarantee, little to no underwriting (you can get the cash in as quick as a week), and covers 2.5 months of payroll / rent / utilities.  If you are a small business, the feds just covered your fixed cost for 2.5 months, and possibly longer if this continues.
> 
> I don’t think it’s a V shape rebound but I think the doom and gloom scenario is vastly exaggerated.  You see the unemployment numbers spike and news of massive layoffs / furloughs, but that’s so people can get unemployment insurance immediately while all the government stimulus is being sorted out. Just IMO.



lol I must have missed the part of the stimulus that covers installment loans and lines of credit. A lot of businesses own their building, so no rent/mortgage. If you are shut down, you probably aren't paying payroll either as you would have laid most of your employees off. Companies like that use loans to buy equipment, or lines of credit to buy supplies or get 30 day net bills from suppliers. Those payments are still having to be made and there is no income coming in.  If you are a business thats still open and rent a storefront, this is great. If you are shut down completely and own your location this does almost nothing for you.


----------



## fsjking

McCrae said:


> If David’s were going to pay my renters the cash back I would be thinking differently about them. In my case the original renters would only get a travel voucher. If I returned the cash to David’s it would go in his pocket rather than being returned to the renter.



And then use that money to pay another owner for the reservation to fulfill the voucher. It's not like he gets to keep it.


----------



## PrincessNelly

Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.



I actually think quite the opposite. Many credit card companies will side with the renter. The contract stated they rented X type of room at X resort for X amount of points/dollars, but since the resort closed the reservation could not be fulfilled. Therefore the customer is entitled to a refund.

IMO "no refunds" is totally different than a contract not fulfilled.


----------



## vnovabri

ziravan said:


> I would contact the renters directly, and work to rebook with them or refund them the 70% directly.
> 
> At this point, my guess is the renter will jump at being made 70% whole, especially when they know or understand that you aren’t holding the remaining 30%.



Although this may be the most fair solution, I would be cautious to actually do this. Without fully understanding how things will play out and the respective recourse sought by Renters, Rentees, and Davids. For example you could be creating double compensation situation where renters get your 70% back then a full credit from Davids and/or Davids comes seeking that 70% directly from you, which you already paid to the renters.

Unfortunately, Davids has created a situation that we will have to directly deal with them as the middle man on way or the other.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> And then use that money to pay another owner for the reservation to fulfill the voucher. It's not like he gets to keep it.


He gets to keep 2 lots of commission and not everyone will be able to use the voucher. Why not directly refund the Original renter?


----------



## fsjking

McCrae said:


> He gets to keep 2 lots of commission and not everyone will be able to use the voucher. Why not directly refund the Original renter?



The why he's doing it this way has been discussed. It's to keep liquid enough to try to survive this. 

Where are you getting that he gets 2 commissions?


----------



## Krandor

fsjking said:


> The why he's doing it this way has been discussed. It's to keep liquid enough to try to survive this.
> 
> Where are you getting that he gets 2 commissions?



I think he's referring to an owner who lets david's re-rent their points.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Wouldn’t re renting also complicate things in that prices have since gone up, so if for example an owner had initially used 300 points there’s now an extra $300 David’s collects assuming they’re all used for a new reservation, multiplied by how ever many new reservations there are. Where does that go? Maybe a buffer for situations where they can’t rent out the entire amount of original points.


----------



## fsjking

Krandor said:


> I think he's referring to an owner who lets david's re-rent their points.



He said if he returns the money it goes in David's pocket. 

And even in a re-rent, there will end up being 2 reservations(original renters new res, and original owners new res), so he should get 2 commissions, all else being equal. 



DGsAtBLT said:


> Wouldn’t re renting also complicate things in that prices have since gone up, so if for example an owner had initially used 300 points there’s now an extra $300 David’s collects assuming they’re all used for a new reservation, multiplied by how ever many new reservations there are. Where does that go? Maybe a buffer for situations where they can’t rent out the entire amount of original points.



Prices change. Disney has raised prices since a lot of people booked their vacations too. Rebooking means you pay what the price is for the new vacation. If you have a credit, it's going to be for what you paid out originally. The price increase was before all of this started, so it is what it is. There's nothing nefarious to it.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

fsjking said:


> He said if he returns the money it goes in David's pocket.
> 
> And even in a re-rent, there will end up being 2 reservations(original renters new res, and original owners new res), so he should get 2 commissions, all else being equal.
> 
> 
> 
> Prices change. Disney has raised prices since a lot of people booked their vacations too. Rebooking means you pay what the price is for the new vacation. If you have a credit, it's going to be for what you paid out originally. The price increase was before all of this started, so it is what it is. There's nothing nefarious to it.



No you’re misunderstanding me.

When the points are re rented to another party in order to make whole the original renters, there will be an extra $1 per point collected from the new renters above the original amount from the old renters, assuming for the sake of the example that the points all get re rented.

ETA: I wonder if that means they owner will get the difference. Did the price increase mean they get more per point now?

ETA2: I also didn’t say it was nefarious, but a further complication. Given the nature of David’s being brokers not owners of the product.


----------



## Sandisw

meryll83 said:


> I’m starting to wonder if I should pursue this now, still haven’t had any contact that relates directly to our rental reservation, and maybe won’t for a while as we’re mid April.
> I’ve had generic replies referring to WDW, but our reservation is for the Grand Californian at Disneyland...
> 
> We’re in the U.K. and haven’t got a lot of flexibility on ability to rebook, so not happy with the prospect of a credit.
> 
> But what would my credit card company expect me to be able to evidence? I’m not sure the lack of personalised comms or mid April date will help me here, combined with their no refunds policy... does anyone have any advice?



Different CC have different polices, but my understanding is that many will investigate the claim, regardless of the non refundable mention, because you paid for something that can’t be delivered

So, I know of instances where people are in that process...David’s has to then defend why you would not be entitled to the refund.  The lack of language that addresses this situation will play a role.

So, as long as VGC is closed, and the date passes, you can request the refund, and if not granted, file the dispute, and go from there


----------



## Sandisw

toniosmom said:


> I have a rental scheduled for check-in on April 2nd.  DVC has not yet cancelled the reservation, even though they said they would be cancelling all reservations on a week-by-week basis.  I assumed this reservation would have been cancelled by now and don't want to cancel it myself because of my contract as an owner with David's.  I was also under the assumption that renters would be getting a travel credit in the case where owners would be unable/unwilling to refund the money.  I don't see any evidence or proof that this is or is not happening.  I have always had a great working relationship with David's and will continue to do business with them until I see proof that they are not doing right by their clients (both owners and renters).  This is a herculean undertaking and I think we need to be sympathetic to the difficulty.  Is it frustrating not being able to contact anyone, absolutely!  But, be happy that we are all healthy enough to be sitting here at our computers browsing through these forums.  Put it in perspective.  It'll all shake out in the end.  Right now, we're all drinking from the firehose.  Its not easy, but we need some patience.



 An email was shared here from an owner that said they could refund the money and it would go in an account for the renters future credit, or the owner could agree to re rent points.

Based on that email , it seems that the renter is not being given the choice of travel credit or refund, even if the owner says they will send it back.


----------



## fsjking

DGsAtBLT said:


> No you’re misunderstanding me.
> 
> When the points are re rented to another party in order to make whole the original renters, there will be an extra $1 per point collected from the new renters above the original amount from the old renters, assuming for the sake of the example that the points all get re rented.
> 
> ETA: I wonder if that means they owner will get the difference. Did the price increase mean they get more per point now?
> 
> ETA2: I also didn’t say it was nefarious, but a further complication. Given the nature of David’s being brokers not owners of the product.



David's raised his prices, not the owners, so yes he keeps the $1. If this never happened and, after their March reservation, a renter booked another rental, they'd have had to pay that additional $1 which Davids would have retained. Unless he has also raised the fees paid to owners as well. In that case it should be passed on to them. But that would be in the contract.


----------



## Galun

fsjking said:


> lol I must have missed the part of the stimulus that covers installment loans and lines of credit. A lot of businesses own their building, so no rent/mortgage. If you are shut down, you probably aren't paying payroll either as you would have laid most of your employees off. Companies like that use loans to buy equipment, or lines of credit to buy supplies or get 30 day net bills from suppliers. Those payments are still having to be made and there is no income coming in.  If you are a business thats still open and rent a storefront, this is great. If you are shut down completely and own your location this does almost nothing for you.



Your payroll would still be covered by the payroll protection loan.  You can lay off your employees now.  As long as you hire them back immediately after loan origination date and before 6/30/2020 and maintain payroll for 2 months, the payroll loan will be forgiven.

If have taken out loans or incur expenses not covered by the stimulus bill, you apply for the SBA disaster loan to help with cash flow.

If you are shut down completely and own your location, you may not generate revenue / profit, but you are not incurring fixed expense either. 

It certainly won't work out for everybody.  But I think the government's response and stimulus plan was well thought out, and I am confident that it will ultimately work.


----------



## grubens

If it is helpful, I share my experience with DVC Rental Store.  Many months ago I "sold" it two sets of points for reservations that now fall during the closure.  I received 75% of dollars due to me when reservation was made and was to receive remaining 25% when reservation occurred.  Both reservations where explained to me as "non-cancellable."  When the renters cancelled, DVC Rental Store assured me I would receive the full amount due to me because those were the terms of the contract.  It did not sit well with me and we are in a position to do so, so I gave back the 75%.  It is my understanding based on an email exchange that the renters would receive back the full amount they paid, not just the portion I returned.

If you meant this thread to focus solely on David's, my apologies for inserting this and feel free to ignore.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

DGsAtBLT said:


> Wouldn’t re renting also complicate things in that prices have since gone up, so if for example an owner had initially used 300 points there’s now an extra $300 David’s collects assuming they’re all used for a new reservation, multiplied by how ever many new reservations there are. Where does that go? Maybe a buffer for situations where they can’t rent out the entire amount of original points.


I think you are correct. I was asked to re rent the points, but a few more than the original rental (I couldn’t, because I have no spare points!) and was told that any extra points in excess to the original rental would be paid at $15.50 per point, so I’m guessing the new renter would be paying the increased price for the full point value.


----------



## Sandisw

Galun said:


> I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter.  The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance.  Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist.  David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance.   Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose.  So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.
> 
> Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before.  There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY.  Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY.  Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.
> 
> If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this.  Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%.  He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit.  If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.
> 
> If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist.  I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad.  However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.  If David’s go under, that 70% I got would be enough to cover my MF, and then I have control in how to try to help the underlying renter.
> 
> If David’s go under, the bankruptcy trustee may go after the 70% he paid me for a reservation that had been cancelled.  However I doubt a Canadian judgement is enforceable in the US.
> 
> David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points.  They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months.  They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so.  I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market.   David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback.  I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage.  If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges.  If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either.   In theory they can survive the chargebacks.
> 
> This is a cash flow / liquidity issue.  They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now).   Large companies have credit lines for this reason.  I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model.   I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.
> 
> Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories.  The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine.  David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force  majeure.



The only thing I will add is that the contract discussed non refundable in relation to the actions of the renter,  It does not discuss what happens when the room is not available through no fault of their own,

It is this missing language that may tip the scale with the CC in favor of the renter, especially since there are emails from him in which he has acknowledged his contract with the renter is void.

From my understanding, CC chargebacks take the funds immediately from the business during the process, so if he is getting hit with a lot of them, he has to have the funds available to continue without those funds, until he wither wins or loses,

That is what I see as an issue with how well his business can weather the storm. If I was a renter, I would be filing for a chargeback immediately and hope for the best, because not delivering a room was not covered in the terms of the contract.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

fsjking said:


> David's raised his prices, not the owners, so yes he keeps the $1. If this never happened and, after their March reservation, a renter booked another rental, they'd have had to pay that additional $1 which Davids would have retained. Unless he has also raised the fees paid to owners as well. In that case it should be passed on to them. But that would be in the contract.



I'm asking if the extra $1 being charged was because he was increasing the payout to owners, I genuinely don't know. If that is the case, if I was an owner re renting I would think I would be entitled to that extra money.


----------



## Sandisw

Brian Noble said:


> If I were a renter with a reservation that has a check-in date that has already passed, I would initiate a chargeback request right now, using the travel voucher email as evidence that the trip was not delivered and the money was not refunded. It might not work, but credit card companies tend to err on the side of their direct customers, because that's who pays the bills.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a minimum in which the CC issuer is required to offer the opportunity to make a request. In practice some will go longer, especially for customers they want to keep.



This made me think about airlines. Most will try to offer a travel credit, but I just learned...never knew...that they are required, even for non refundable tickets...to refund a passenger their money, per DOT guidelines, if the airline does the canceling.

So, in this case, could apply to renters in refusing a credit.


----------



## TheWheel

Krandor said:


> And don't forget Davids has send an email wherehe believes the ccontract with the renter is no longer valid.  If the contract isn't valid, renter shoould get a refund.   I'd include that email with any chargeback request.


Can someone please post that


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> The why he's doing it this way has been discussed. It's to keep liquid enough to try to survive this.
> 
> Where are you getting that he gets 2 commissions?



He gets the commission from the original renter, and now the new renter,  Offering the refund to the renter directly means he has to send his share back too


----------



## Galun

Sandisw said:


> Different CC have different polices, but my understanding is that many will investigate the claim, regardless of the non refundable mention, because you paid for something that can’t be delivered
> 
> So, I know of instances where people are in that process...David’s has to then defend why you would not be entitled to the refund.  The lack of language that addresses this situation will play a role.
> 
> So, as long as VGC is closed, and the date passes, you can request the refund, and if not granted, file the dispute, and go from there



Well, if you are a renter, your counter party is not the hotel (Disney).  Your counter party is the owner member, and David's as an intermediary.

For David's, I don't think they are on the hook for anything based on this language.  "David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort."  However, if they don't help the renter, their reputation is ruined and they won't exist for much longer.

For the owner, I don't think they are on the hook either based on this language.  "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.""Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".  The renter got the points.  The accommodation was not available not due to action or omission but he owner.  The renter can use the points to make another accommodation reservation, but no refund.  Well, and the fact that no refund has been mentioned numerous times in the contract.  That's the way I read it.

The renters rented points that representation accommodations only.  I think there is a strong argument that in the current situation the renter will gets the points - and the underlying restrictions behind those points - to make another reservation.  They were advised to purchase travel insurance.  There is a type of travel insurance that will cover this situation - cancel at any time.  

So, I think David's has a strong case to defend a chargeback.  Now, will the average credit card charge back investigator understand all this. I doubt it, and I think a lot of them will just rule for the credit card holder since that's ultimately their customer.  I am just saying don't be so confident about it.  If you initiate a charge back and fail, you burn the bridge and David's will have no incentive to help you secure another reservation.


----------



## Galun

Sandisw said:


> He gets the commission from the original renter, and now the new renter,  Offering the refund to the renter directly means he has to send his share back too



The original renter already paid the commission and they don't pay a new one for a new reservation.

A new renter with a new reservation will have never paid the commission. 

I don't see the double commission.  Nobody would have paid twice.

He would have made an extra dollar per point if he manage to use old points to re-rent at a higher rate.  I think he'd be a fool to keep his rate at $19-20, or to keep his spread at $4.50.  He needs new reservations to get new cash in, like yesterday.


----------



## Sandisw

Galun said:


> Well, if you are a renter, your counter party is not the hotel (Disney).  Your counter party is the owner member, and David's as an intermediary.
> 
> For David's, I don't think they are on the hook for anything based on this language.  "David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort."  However, if they don't help the renter, their reputation is ruined and they won't exist for much longer.
> 
> For the owner, I don't think they are on the hook either based on this language.  "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.""Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".  The renter got the points.  The accommodation was not available not due to action or omission but he owner.  The renter can use the points to make another accommodation reservation, but no refund.  Well, and the fact that no refund has been mentioned numerous times in the contract.  That's the way I read it.
> 
> The renters rented points that representation accommodations only.  I think there is a strong argument that in the current situation the renter will gets the points - and the underlying restrictions behind those points - to make another reservation.  They were advised to purchase travel insurance.  There is a type of travel insurance that will cover this situation - cancel at any time.
> 
> So, I think David's has a strong case to defend a chargeback.  Now, will the average credit card charge back investigator understand all this. I doubt it, and I think a lot of them will just rule for the credit card holder since that's ultimately their customer.  I am just saying don't be so confident about it.  If you initiate a charge back and fail, you burn the bridge and David's will have no incentive to help you secure another reservation.



Actually, there are several reports that CFAR insurance is not covering this situation.

But, if David’s has put something out to owners that the contract with the renter is void, I can’t believe he didn’t do thst without first seeking legal advice,  That is a big statement,

That alone leads me to believe he got advice that the lack of terms and conditions dealing with not delivering the reservation is questionable. It does mention operations but all those refer to amenities and I think a renter can argue that doest apply to closure,

Only way we will ever truly know if these contracts can be legally enforced as written would be through a court proceeding.  Even the win of CC doesn’t mean that, but I agree, most renters will probsbly win, especially if they have a copy no something he sent to owners indicating the contract is void


----------



## Sandisw

Galun said:


> The original renter already paid the commission and they don't pay a new one for a new reservation.
> 
> A new renter with a new reservation will have never paid the commission.
> 
> I don't see the double commission.  Nobody would have paid twice.
> 
> He would have made an extra dollar per point if he manage to use old points to re-rent at a higher rate.  I think he'd be a fool to keep his rate at $19-20, or to keep his spread at $4.50.  He needs new reservations to get new cash in, like yesterday.



He loses the commission of the first renter when he refunds.  I didn’t mean double commission on the same transaction, but that he suffers no loss by doing the travel credit vs, the refund, even when the owner of the points sends the money back,

Renters whose owners refund the money should be the ones  deciding whether they take a credit or money, since the contract with that owner is being voided.


----------



## Galun

Sandisw said:


> This made me think about airlines. Most will try to offer a travel credit, but I just learned...never knew...that they are required, even for non refundable tickets...to refund a passenger their money, per DOT guidelines, if the airline does the canceling.
> 
> So, in this case, could apply to renters in refusing a credit.



Unlike the airlines, there is no government authority that regulates a three way contract between two un-related parties (sometimes international), with a Canadian intermediary.  Someone earlier said he who had the gold usually wins.  The owner already has the 70% and David's has the 30%.  The risk to his business comes from chargebacks and reputation.

I think this is a lot like stub hub.  They are an intermediary between ticket holders and buyers, and they are running into exactly the same issue that David's has.  Their current policy is 120% credit to buyer for future (that means no cash back to the buyer), and adjust the timing of payment to buyers until the event has actually happened.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

fsjking said:


> David's raised his prices, not the owners, so yes he keeps the $1. If this never happened and, after their March reservation, a renter booked another rental, they'd have had to pay that additional $1 which Davids would have retained. Unless he has also raised the fees paid to owners as well. In that case it should be passed on to them. But that would be in the contract.





DGsAtBLT said:


> I'm asking if the extra $1 being charged was because he was increasing the payout to owners, I genuinely don't know. If that is the case, if I was an owner re renting I would think I would be entitled to that extra money.



The $1 price increase is a wash to David's as it is passed onto the owner (that is if David's doesn't breach the contract).  Sometime in February (or could have been late January) and prior to this mess, David's increased it's owner payout for premium points from $14.50 to $15.50 per point and the fee to renters from $19 to $20 per point.


----------



## Galun

Sandisw said:


> He loses the commission of the first renter when he refunds.  I didn’t mean double commission on the same transaction, but that he suffers no loss by doing the travel credit vs, the refund, even when the owner of the points sends the money back,
> 
> Renters whose owners refund the money should be the ones  deciding whether they take a credit or money, since the contract with that owner is being voided.



If he refunds he is out cash that he cannot afford to pay out.  If he issues travel credit, he buys time. 

I agree that conceptually if the owner refunds the money, that money should go to the specific renter. But the intermediary needs the cash, and he is part of the three way contract, and these are his terms.  He is trying to survive and I understand what he is doing.

If I am an owner with an existing reservation. I want to see him survive so I can get the remaining 30%. So like I said, I would give back the 70% if my points can still be banked in the resort is not open by the time of travel.

The owner does have the renter's information and can give a refund on their own.  Personally I wouldn't do it for two reasons.  1).  If I initiate this, I might be the one that breached the contract.  If I don't do anything, I won't.  2).  You never know what the renter thinks.  You might think you are doing them a favor by refunding 70%, but they might think you are the one that skimmed off the 30%.  Then the renter is mad at you.  And if you reach out, they now have your direct contact info.  If I were the owner, I would let the dust settle before deciding to do anything, including trying to give remedy to the renter as much as possible.   Again, most renters don't understand our restrictions as owners.  If the renter expected total loss from David's and you reach out after that, they are more likely to see you as doing good instead of bad.


----------



## Galun

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> The $1 price increase is a wash to David's as it is passed onto the owner (that is if David's doesn't breach the contract).  Sometime in February (or could have been late January) and prior to this mess, David's increased it's owner payout for premium points from $14.50 to $15.50 per point and the fee to renters from $19 to $20 per point.



I think he raised his price per point by $1 this year.  So if he used points paid to owners last year to re-rent at a higher rate, he does make an extra dollar per point.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

Galun said:


> I think he raised his price per point by $1 this year.  So if he used points paid to owners last year to re-rent at a higher rate, he does make an extra dollar per point.


No, it was February (or could have been late January) as my post stated.

ETA:  Approximately February 4, 2020


----------



## Galun

Sandisw said:


> From my understanding, CC chargebacks take the funds immediately from the business during the process, so if he is getting hit with a lot of them, he has to have the funds available to continue without those funds, until he wither wins or loses,



Typically credit card payments are deposited to the business every day.  Chargebacks under investigation are usually accounted for with a hold / temporary credit on the customer's account, but the credit card company won't take the money from the vendor yet.  If the credit card company ultimately rules in favor of the renter, the credit to the renter will be made permanent, and a charge will be placed on David's merchant account.  The merchant account settles every day. If there is a negative balance, he won't get any cash.  So essentially payment from new rentals - to the extent that there is any - will "pay" for the chargebacks.

It's a cash flow issue.  If he can weather through the storm, all the piece may eventually fall in to place.  If he doesn't have the cash flow to last to that point, he will go out of business.  That's why he is begging owners for the 70% cash back and keeping it.


----------



## Amymouse13

Galun said:


> Your payroll would still be covered by the payroll protection loan.  You can lay off your employees now.  As long as you hire them back immediately after loan origination date and before 6/30/2020 and maintain payroll for 2 months, the payroll loan will be forgiven.
> 
> If have taken out loans or incur expenses not covered by the stimulus bill, you apply for the SBA disaster loan to help with cash flow.
> 
> If you are shut down completely and own your location, you may not generate revenue / profit, but you are not incurring fixed expense either.
> 
> It certainly won't work out for everybody.  But I think the government's response and stimulus plan was well thought out, and I am confident that it will ultimately work.



No idea if Canada is doing sba loans like the ones passed here...


----------



## Galun

Amymouse13 said:


> No idea if Canada is doing sba loans like the ones passed here...



I agree that he is renting to an international audience, and many small businesses will suffer.

However, I personally think the US response is done quite well.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

I hope David’s is automatically passing on that extra $1 per point to the owners who are re-renting to new renters. Certainly helps motivate them to be willing to do so (helping all of us), that’s a few hundred dollars extra in some cases.


----------



## Nennie

Another issue that arises with credit vouchers, is that David's will have a conflict if he doesn't have enough owners to do rentals for both the credit voucher customers and the new cash-paying customers.  If he is short on points, who is he going to rent them to?  I think I know the answer!!


----------



## fsjking

Galun said:


> Your payroll would still be covered by the payroll protection loan.  You can lay off your employees now.  As long as you hire them back immediately after loan origination date and before 6/30/2020 and maintain payroll for 2 months, the payroll loan will be forgiven.
> 
> If have taken out loans or incur expenses not covered by the stimulus bill, you apply for the SBA disaster loan to help with cash flow.
> 
> If you are shut down completely and own your location, you may not generate revenue / profit, but you are not incurring fixed expense either.
> 
> It certainly won't work out for everybody.  But I think the government's response and stimulus plan was well thought out, and I am confident that it will ultimately work.



Honestly, a lot, if not most, employees are better on Unemployment right now. That extra $600 made it so its a raise over what they are making working. I think a lot of business owners will let their employees do that short term rather than getting a loan to pay them even if it does turn into a grant. They'll pay more next year on their UI, but in the short term it makes sense. 

There are still expenses. Theres still an electric bill. Installment loans have to be paid. Suppliers that supplied goods prior to the shut down expect to be paid. Banks that supplied lines of credit still expect monthly payments. The loans help with cash flow, but add overhead. Combine that with no income and it's not much of a solution at all. 

I know our business(spring through fall outdoor event venue that uses primarily part time help on event days) is going to be eviscerated by this situation and the stimulus does almost nothing to help us. I know other business owners in other fields who have a similar take on it. It's great if you are still open. If not.... 

But we've jumped way off topic here.


----------



## Galun

fsjking said:


> Honestly, a lot, if not most, employees are better on Unemployment right now. That extra $600 made it so its a raise over what they are making working. I think a lot of business owners will let their employees do that short term rather than getting a loan to pay them even if it does turn into a grant. They'll pay more next year on their UI, but in the short term it makes sense.
> 
> There are still expenses. Theres still an electric bill. Installment loans have to be paid. Suppliers that supplied goods prior to the shut down expect to be paid. Banks that supplied lines of credit still expect monthly payments. The loans help with cash flow, but add overhead. Combine that with no income and it's not much of a solution at all.
> 
> I know our business(spring through fall outdoor event venue that uses primarily part time help on event days) is going to be eviscerated by this situation and the stimulus does almost nothing to help us. I know other business owners in other fields who have a similar take on it. It's great if you are still open. If not....
> 
> But we've jumped way off topic here.



The government had thought of this with the way they structured the stimulus bill.  It's going to take a little time for the banks to set the loan infrastructure (I asked, they told me they would be ready by Friday), and a couple weeks for the SBA to come up with guidelines.  I have furloughed my employees so they get unemployment now.  When I verify that I can get the loan and meet the forgiveness criteria, I will rehire them back (at their old pay which is higher than what they will get from unemployment).  With unemployment and the payroll protection loan, my employees will essentially be paid by the government for around 3.5 - 4 months.  I also get the feds to pay for 2.5 months of fixed expenses in rent and utilities.  It is up to me to figure out a way for the business to bounce back during this time.

All those expenses you mentioned are certainly real, and I am fortunate that my business does not have those.  However, from what I understand, most understand that this is an unprecedented situation, and are willing to help if you demonstrate the need.  If you go out of business, the supplier would have lost a customer, and the bank will not get their money back.  

I am sorry to read about your situation... in your case it's going to take a while for demand to bounce back even when the social distancing stuff is lifted.  The stimulus bill cannot create business demand out of thin air.  But it will help a lot of people and businesses, and hopefully a couple months down the road that leads to confidence that people will start throwing outdoor events again.  Good luck.  We all need it.


----------



## starry_solo

Galun said:


> Well, if you are a renter, your counter party is not the hotel (Disney).  Your counter party is the owner member, and David's as an intermediary.
> 
> For David's, I don't think they are on the hook for anything based on this language.  "David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort."  However, if they don't help the renter, their reputation is ruined and they won't exist for much longer.
> 
> For the owner, I don't think they are on the hook either based on this language.  "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.""Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".  The renter got the points.  The accommodation was not available not due to action or omission but he owner.  The renter can use the points to make another accommodation reservation, but no refund.  Well, and the fact that no refund has been mentioned numerous times in the contract.  That's the way I read it.
> 
> The renters rented points that representation accommodations only.  I think there is a strong argument that in the current situation the renter will gets the points - and the underlying restrictions behind those points - to make another reservation.  They were advised to purchase travel insurance.  There is a type of travel insurance that will cover this situation - cancel at any time.
> 
> So, I think David's has a strong case to defend a chargeback.  Now, will the average credit card charge back investigator understand all this. I doubt it, and I think a lot of them will just rule for the credit card holder since that's ultimately their customer.  I am just saying don't be so confident about it.  If you initiate a charge back and fail, you burn the bridge and David's will have no incentive to help you secure another reservation.




This was talked about many pages ago. Travel insurance, including CFAR, is telling their insureds that it doesn't cover pandemics


----------



## Galun

starry_solo said:


> This was talked about many pages ago. Travel insurance, including CFAR, is telling their insureds that it doesn't cover pandemics



I saw one person stating CAFR travel insurance does not cover pandemic, without offering any proof.

I just bought CAFR travel insurance for a new trip in July I just paid for, and I specifically asked about this.  I am covered when I cancel my tip 48 hours before the start of the trip.  My payout will be 75% of non refundable trip cost.  The payout will take longer because they will need to investigate how much was exactly non refundable.  But it's certainly covered.  The pandemic itself is irrelevant to CAFR policy.  I make the decision to cancel within the timeframe stated by the policy, and that's what triggers the payout.

It is certainly possible that someone bought what they thought was a CAFR policy but it's not actually CAFR.


----------



## Lewisc

Galun said:


> I saw one person stating CAFR travel insurance does not cover pandemic, without offering any proof.
> 
> I just bought CAFR travel insurance for a new trip in July I just paid for, and I specifically asked about this.  I am covered when I cancel my tip 48 hours before the start of the trip.  My payout will be 75% of non refundable trip cost.  The payout will take longer because they will need to investigate how much was exactly non refundable.  But it's certainly covered.  The pandemic itself is irrelevant to CAFR policy.  I make the decision to cancel within the timeframe stated by the policy, and that's what triggers the payout.
> 
> It is certainly possible that someone bought what they thought was a CAFR policy but it's not actually CAFR.


It was CFAR. The policy only covers non-refundable charges. Since the DVC resort was closed the carrier contended the rental contract wasn't valid. The carrier was arguing the owner or broker was responsible to refund. The poster said the claim was pending.


----------



## McCrae

Galun said:


> I saw one person stating CAFR travel insurance does not cover pandemic, without offering any proof.
> 
> I just bought CAFR travel insurance for a new trip in July I just paid for, and I specifically asked about this.  I am covered when I cancel my tip 48 hours before the start of the trip.  My payout will be 75% of non refundable trip cost.  The payout will take longer because they will need to investigate how much was exactly non refundable.  But it's certainly covered.  The pandemic itself is irrelevant to CAFR policy.  I make the decision to cancel within the timeframe stated by the policy, and that's what triggers the payout.
> 
> It is certainly possible that someone bought what they thought was a CAFR policy but it's not actually CAFR.


What insurance company did you use?


----------



## Galun

McCrae said:


> What insurance company did you use?



I believe it's Berkshire Hathaway travel protection.  Just look on one if the travel insurance aggregate websites and look for CAFR.


----------



## Galun

Lewisc said:


> It was CFAR. The policy only covers non-refundable charges. Since the DVC resort was closed the carrier contended the rental contract wasn't valid. The carrier was arguing the owner or broker was responsible to refund. The poster said the claim was pending.



Well then the claim has mot been resolved yet.  It's not yet "nonrefundable" because the travel insurance thinks someone else will give them a refund.  Insurance companies want to be the last payer.  If they ultimately don't get a refund, they should be covered by travel insurance.  If they don't, complain to the state insurance commissioner.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

DGsAtBLT said:


> I hope David’s is automatically passing on that extra $1 per point to the owners who are re-renting to new renters. Certainly helps motivate them to be willing to do so (helping all of us), that’s a few hundred dollars extra in some cases.


$15.50 per point for any extra points rented but no extra $1  for points in the original transaction


----------



## TheWheel

FYI - If any renters affected wish to rebook with Disney directly you are in fact eligable for the free dining offer on a cash reservation as long as your reservation fell inside the mentioned dates.


----------



## Lewisc

Galun said:


> Well then the claim has mot been resolved yet.  It's not yet "nonrefundable" because the travel insurance thinks someone else will give them a refund.  Insurance companies want to be the last payer.  If they ultimately don't get a refund, they should be covered by travel insurance.  If they don't, complain to the state insurance commissioner.


The poster was from Canada.  The issue is a closed resort, or cancelled flight, generally means the supplier has to offer a refund.  The insurance company doesn't have to pay.

The point is regular travel insurance doesn't cover it.  CFAR may have a loophole. David's already said the contract isn't valid since the resort was closed.  Assume the carrier confirmed that information but David's is unable to pay their bills.  This might be considered a supplier default claim which may, or not, be covered.


----------



## momincolorado

Maddiesmum03 said:


> $15.50 per point for any extra points rented but no extra $1  for points in the original transaction



Help me understand this (renter here). Since the so-called travel credit is for “dollar value” he’s charging the renters $1 more per point for any new reservation (so renter now pays more) but not passing it on to the owner assuming original points are being used to complete this new reservation, is this correct?


----------



## Amymouse13

momincolorado said:


> Help me understand this (renter here). Since the so-called travel credit is for “dollar value” he’s charging the renters $1 more per point for any new reservation (so renter now pays more) but not passing it on to the owner assuming original points are being used to complete this new reservation, is this correct?



I'm guessing dollar value based on what you paid that now isn't worth the same in current point values... If you can even book something as some have days there is no availability this fall other has any owners willing to work with him


----------



## Maddiesmum03

momincolorado said:


> Help me understand this (renter here). Since the so-called travel credit is for “dollar value” he’s charging the renters $1 more per point for any new reservation (so renter now pays more) but not passing it on to the owner assuming original points are being used to complete this new reservation, is this correct?


As I see it yes, I got the impression the rental was a new one, not for my original renters. I was paid in full for the original rental, and was told I would receive $15.50 for additional points over and above the original number of points.


----------



## CraigInPA

Galun said:


> Typically credit card payments are deposited to the business every day.  Chargebacks under investigation are usually accounted for with a hold / temporary credit on the customer's account, but the credit card company won't take the money from the vendor yet.



Incorrect, the money comes out immediately. This is done in case the merchant is experiencing a run on his account (or is planning on making a run WITH the money) to make sure the money does not disappear.


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

TheWheel said:


> Can someone please post that


Ditto. I've seen several posters mention this apparent email from David's acknowledging the contracts being considered void. Was this sent to all owners?


----------



## McCrae

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> Ditto. I've seen several posters mention this apparent email from David's acknowledging the contracts being considered void. Was this sent to all owners?


My letter mentioned nothing about the contract being void. It was a request for help.


----------



## Sandisw

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> Ditto. I've seen several posters mention this apparent email from David's acknowledging the contracts being considered void. Was this sent to all owners?



Here is a link from an owner who posted the contents of the email from David’s.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/does-davids-tell-you-if-the-renter-cancels.3796406/post-61697335


----------



## McCrae

David's already said the contract isn't valid since the resort was closed.  Assume the carrier confirmed that information but David's is unable to pay their bills.  This might be considered a supplier default claim which may, or not, be covered.
[/QUOTE]
David hasn’t said this is any correspondence I have received.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> Here is a link from an owner who posted the contents of the email from David’s.
> 
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/does-davids-tell-you-if-the-renter-cancels.3796406/post-61697335


My email is different. It makes no mention of the contract being void. It asks if I would be willing to help.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> My email is different. It makes no mention of the contract being void. It asks if I would be willing to help.



Well, it sounds like he opened himself up by putting it in an email to at least one owner,  That was sent before this travel credit idea was decided so maybe he realized that Might-not have been a good choice


----------



## DougEMG

I don't know what Dave's contracts look like, but aren't some of the rental contracts out there a *contract to rent points*, which can then be used to make reservations?  If that were the case would that make any difference at all to what is happening or what either party was responsible for?


----------



## DougEMG

In Canada the government is providing $2000 a month for 4 months to workers who being effected by COVID-19.  This could help with David's payroll.


----------



## Sandisw

DougEMG said:


> I don't know what Dave's contracts look like, but aren't some of the rental contracts out there a *contract to rent points*, which can then be used to make reservations?  If that were the case would that make any difference at all to what is happening or what either party was responsible for?



It says to rent points that represent accommodations.  So, it does put the two together,

The term ”rent points” isn’t really accurate, thought, is it? What is happening is you are renting a reservation that is being booked on points, so maybe the language of contracts should be changed to accurately reflect that.

So, I’d say anyone reading the contract is agreeing to pay for a room.


----------



## Matty B13

Sandisw said:


> The term ”rent points” isn’t really accurate, thought, is it? What is happening is you are renting a reservation that is being booked on points, so maybe the language of contracts should be changed to accurately reflect that.


I think it is more accurate than saying your renting a reservation.  The price of the "reservation" is based off of the total number of points, right.  All prices are based off of point charts for the dates of the reservation, that's why there are point calculators on all the brokers websites.

Most websites talk about "renting points" the whole DVC system is based off of this.  So that is why I wonder why people keep saying they are renting a reservation..... they are renting points, represented by a reservation.


----------



## Sandisw

Matty B13 said:


> I think it is more accurate than saying your renting a reservation.  The price of the "reservation" is based off of the total number of points, right.  All prices are based off of point charts for the dates of the reservation, that's why there are point calculators on all the brokers websites.
> 
> Most websites talk about "renting points" the whole DVC system is based off of this.  So that is why I wonder why people keep saying they are renting a reservation..... they are renting points, represented by a reservation.



Tecnically, points have no value..it’s why DVC doesn’t allow payment for transfers,

I know people say it, but Im saying I don’t agree it’s an accurate statement  

Renters are renting a confirmed reservation that the owner booked using points.


----------



## fsjking

Matty B13 said:


> I think it is more accurate than saying your renting a reservation.  The price of the "reservation" is based off of the total number of points, right.  All prices are based off of point charts for the dates of the reservation, that's why there are point calculators on all the brokers websites.
> 
> Most websites talk about "renting points" the whole DVC system is based off of this.  So that is why I wonder why people keep saying they are renting a reservation..... they are renting points, represented by a reservation.



While that's the term people have used, in this new world of what's really legal here, an owner can't, by contract, rent you points. You can make a reservation for someone using points, but you can't give them control of the points.


----------



## Matty B13

Sandisw said:


> Tecnically, points have no value..it’s why DVC doesn’t allow payment for transfers,


Then why does every deed say in it, this "represents XXX points in a XX UY"?  Every reservation and contract is based off of points in the DVC system.


----------



## Sandisw

Matty B13 said:


> Then why does every deed say in it, this "represents XXX points in a XX UY"?  Every reservation and contract is based off of points in the DVC system.



Because the points in the deed represent inventory.  You are deeded interest in a piece of real estate and it is defined based on points,

Owning points is different,  You get to do things with them, but points by themselves mean nothing. 

A renter can’t do anything with them...that’s the difference in my eyes.


----------



## Applebiscuit

I rented points for 7 nights mid-may at AKL. I am willing to move my reservation to a different date, but my fear now is that by the time David's actually contacts me, there won't be any more availability left for the summer, and my wife is in school so if we can't find summer availability I'm not sure what we are going to do.


----------



## Matty B13

Applebiscuit said:


> I rented points for 7 nights mid-may at AKL. I am willing to move my reservation to a different date, but my fear now is that by the time David's actually contacts me, there won't be any more availability left for the summer, and my wife is in school so if we can't find summer availability I'm not sure what we are going to do.


Summer isn't to bad for availability usually..... but this summer might be different.  I would try to contact Davids ASAP and try to work something out.  Hopefully the persons points you rented, didn't have a June UY.


----------



## badeacon

I just received reply from David's.  I had replied that that I could rebook the April reservation and would be willing to do until June 2022 or re-rent points but would expect 30% owed me to be paid on booking the reservation , not on checkin since I had rented these points since june 2019. 
I also mentioned that I had points rented  for a stay in mid  May and would be willing to rebook this reservation for sometime in future.
The response was that would not pay 30% owed me with re-rental until checkin, with no mention of rebooking original renters. 
The response convinces me that they really are not interested in rebooking original renter but wanting the owners to either return the 70% or re-rent so David's get the cash. I have real doubts that would be paid the 30% owed if not paid until checkin.


----------



## badeacon

Applebiscuit said:


> I rented points for 7 nights mid-may at AKL. I am willing to move my reservation to a different date, but my fear now is that by the time David's actually contacts me, there won't be any more availability left for the summer, and my wife is in school so if we can't find summer availability I'm not sure what we are going to do.


I am owner and have a mid May renter and I offered to David's to rebook for later but was told they are working on March and April and will get to May sometime in future. I wish you were my mid May rental and we could work on this together but mine was for PVB


----------



## lawboy2001

Sandisw said:


> The only thing I will add is that the contract discussed non refundable in relation to the actions of the renter,  It does not discuss what happens when the room is not available through no fault of their own,



This is a specific case of a frustrated contract.  The owner cannot provide a room 'through no fault of their own.'  The contract cannot be performed and, normally, the parties are put back to their original possessions -- i.e. money paid is returned.  

That is what should happen, legally.  David's should be paying back the 30% he is holding, to the renter, and the owner should be paying back the 70% they received, to David's or directly to the renter.


----------



## starry_solo

Applebiscuit said:


> I rented points for 7 nights mid-may at AKL. I am willing to move my reservation to a different date, but my fear now is that by the time David's actually contacts me, there won't be any more availability left for the summer, and my wife is in school so if we can't find summer availability I'm not sure what we are going to do.



Since you have the owner's name, see if you can find them yourself?  Send an email to David's (which won't be responded to), requesting the owner's contact information, too.

EDIT: for clarify


----------



## starry_solo

badeacon said:


> I am owner and have a mid May renter and I offered to David's to rebook for later but was told they are working on March and April and will get to May sometime in future. I wish you were my mid May rental and we could work on this together but mine was for PVB



Since you have the renter's contact information, maybe contact them yourself?


----------



## badeacon

lawboy2001 said:


> This is a specific case of a frustrated contract.  The owner cannot provide a room 'through no fault of their own.'  The contract cannot be performed and, normally, the parties are put back to their original possessions -- i.e. money paid is returned.
> 
> That is what should happen, legally.  David's should be paying back the 30% he is holding, to the renter, and the owner should be paying back the 70% they received, to David's or directly to the renter.


I am not a lawyer and realize that common sense does not apply to the law a lot of times ,but the owner's points that he receives back are not as valuable as they were when rented. To me the points I receive with each use year essentially have a 2 year life span or could be 3 year if borrow into previous year, and some degree of depreciation should  apply to the points. In my case I ,as owner , rented points in June 2019 for an April 2020 stay. The value of my points I receive back now is not the same as they were in June 2019.
There should  be some shared pain between all parties. If the renter receives all their money back and owner as well as David's give all back, then I do not feel that is fair.
I also do not feel David's remedy for this situation is fair as the owner and renter share all the pain.


----------



## LAX

Matty B13 said:


> I think it is more accurate than saying your renting a reservation.  The price of the "reservation" is based off of the total number of points, right.  All prices are based off of point charts for the dates of the reservation, that's why there are point calculators on all the brokers websites.
> 
> Most websites talk about "renting points" the whole DVC system is based off of this.  *So that is why I wonder why people keep saying they are renting a reservation..... they are renting points*, represented by a reservation.



People (in general) claim it's a reservation they are paying for because it gives them much more leverage with respect to reimbursement should something turn bad, which is what's happening. I think if a contract specifically spells out that it's the points that renters are paying for, then brokers and owners won't be entangled in this mess, IMHO. If that is the case, then the renters will get back what they paid for, which are the points, once DVC releases them after cancellation. Then, it would be up to the renters to decide what to do with those points whether they expire in 1 month or 1 year.

I suspect brokers who end up surviving this will need to be much more specific in their contracts as to what renters are paying for to minimize their and owners' exposure to future risks if they haven't already done so (obviously David's isn't).

LAX


----------



## Matty B13

lawboy2001 said:


> That is what should happen, legally.  David's should be paying back the 30% he is holding, to the renter, and the owner should be paying back the 70% they received, to David's or directly to the renter.


shouldn’t maintenance fees and owner administrative fees be taken out of this refund? Since the owner spent time booking the reservation and maintained the fees so the booking could be done?


----------



## fsjking

LAX said:


> People (in general) claim it's a reservation they are paying for because it gives them much more leverage with respect to reimbursement should something turn bad, which is what's happening. I think if a contract specifically spells out that it's the points that renters are paying for, then brokers and owners won't be entangled in this mess, IMHO. If that is the case, then the renters will get back what they paid for, which are the points, once DVC releases them after cancellation. Then, it would be up to the renters to decide what to do with those points whether they expire in 1 month or 1 year.
> 
> I suspected brokers who end up surviving this will need to be much more specific in their contracts as to what renters are paying for to minimize their and owners' exposure to future risks if they haven't already done so (obviously David's isn't).
> 
> LAX



Since a renter can't actually call Disney up and use those points, no. The owner retains use of the points at all times. They cannot transfer them to the renter no matter how you write the contract with David's. 



Matty B13 said:


> shouldn’t maintenance fees and owner administrative fees be taken out of this refund? Since the owner spent time booking the reservation and maintained the fees so the booking could be done?



Are you going to pay the renter interest for holding their money for 11 months(or however long)?  Were you going to not pay your maintenance fees if the points were not rented? The contract does not stipulate that either party is responsible for the other party's costs.


----------



## LAX

badeacon said:


> I am not a lawyer and realize that common sense does not apply to the law a lot of times ,but the owner's points that he receives back are not as valuable as they were when rented. To me the points I receive with each use year essentially have a 2 year life span or could be 3 year if borrow into previous year, and some degree of depreciation should  apply to the points. In my case I ,as owner , rented points in June 2019 for an April 2020 stay. The value of my points I receive back now is not the same as they were in June 2019.
> There should  be some shared pain between all parties. If the renter receives all their money back and owner as well as David's give all back, then I do not feel that is fair.
> I also do not feel David's remedy for this situation is fair as the owner and renter share all the pain.



I absolutely agree with depreciated points, but it's difficult to decide what's fair for each of the three parties involved, especially if every one of them feel it's not "their fault" that this happened. It's difficult if everyone want themselves made whole and careless about who ends up paying for the loss as long as it's not them (in general as I have read some owners & renters have been willing to work something out).

LAX


----------



## LAX

fsjking said:


> Since a renter can't actually call Disney up and use those points, no. The owner retains use of the points at all times. *They cannot transfer them to the renter no matter how you write the contract with David's*.......



I would leave that to those who have a law degree and actually practice it for a living to figure that out (perhaps you might be one in real life).

LAX


----------



## Amymouse13

I'd like to assume if an owner has read this they know that many renters have contacted David's to just get a canned response saying we'll get back to you don't email again it will delay is getting back to you.  So don't assume the renter hasn't contacted David's.  Renters only have a first and last name and often that's not nearly enough to find the person's contact info.  Like Jane Brown (not my owner but like good luck)

I can bet David's would not give a renter an owner's name as that's why owner's use David's to not have to get in middle.  Honestly I'm not sure I'd even advise an owner to contact a renter as there is no moderater if they can't agree... 

I'd be very wary of refunding cash to David's that isn't guaranteed to go to renter as honestly why?  You likely aren't helping your renter.  

I had hoped to simply rebook the points which seemed like a good idea if the dates worked, but no dice on empty promise voucher.  If points can be rebooked seemed like owner was only out a little time calling to make new reservation but in theory not money... But you know it's not my circus.

Both of my April reservations are now cancelled and zippo from David so now... I'll do the next right thing...


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> People (in general) claim it's a reservation they are paying for because it gives them much more leverage with respect to reimbursement should something turn bad, which is what's happening. I think if a contract specifically spells out that it's the points that renters are paying for, then brokers and owners won't be entangled in this mess, IMHO. If that is the case, then the renters will get back what they paid for, which are the points, once DVC releases them after cancellation. Then, it would be up to the renters to decide what to do with those points whether they expire in 1 month or 1 year.
> 
> I suspect brokers who end up surviving this will need to be much more specific in their contracts as to what renters are paying for to minimize their and owners' exposure to future risks if they haven't already done so (obviously David's isn't).
> 
> LAX



If that is the case, then contracts why do contracts metnion no changes? Points have no specific dates to them,

If the renter is really renting points, and not a reservation, then they should be allowed to use them whenever they want before expiration.


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> I'd like to assume if an owner has read this they know that many renters have contacted David's to just get a canned response saying we'll get back to you don't email again it will delay is getting back to you.  So don't assume the renter hasn't contacted David's.  Renters only have a first and last name and often that's not nearly enough to find the person's contact info.  Like Jane Brown (not my owner but like good luck)
> 
> I can bet David's would not give a renter an owner's name as that's why owner's use David's to not have to get in middle.  Honestly I'm not sure I'd even advise an owner to contact a renter as there is no moderater if they can't agree...
> 
> I'd be very wary of refunding cash to David's that isn't guaranteed to go to renter as honestly why?  You likely aren't helping your renter.
> 
> I had hoped to simply rebook the points which seemed like a good idea if the dates worked, but no dice on empty promise voucher.  If points can be rebooked seemed like owner was only out a little time calling to make new reservation but in theory not money... But you know it's not my circus.
> 
> Both of my April reservations are now cancelled and zippo from David so now... I'll do the next right thing...



I think the bigger problem is that David’s does not want owners and renters to connect and work it out without him because then he loses the opportunity to collect the money.

But, I am with you, if my renter was an April or May renter, I would not care and contact them directly, reschedule them, and then tell David’s it’s been resolved 

I wish you luck.


----------



## LAX

Sandisw said:


> If that is the case, then contracts why do contracts metnion no changes? Points have no specific dates to them,
> 
> *If the renter is really renting points, and not a reservation, then they should be allowed to use them whenever they want before expiration.*



Maybe moving forward, things will need to be different in order for the rental market to stay in business. Perhaps charge a fee for modifications as it requires extra effort? As an owner, I certainly don't want to worry about some catastrophic event happening down the road and end up coughing up my payment through no fault of my own plus losing all the rented points. The whole idea of renting out points that I can't use is so that I don't have to worry them at all afterwards. If I am still faced with similar risks, then I might as well just gift them to friends and family.

LAX


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> I think the bigger problem is that David’s does not want owners and renters to connect and work it out without him because then he loses the opportunity to collect the money.
> 
> But, I am with you, if my renter was an April or May renter, I would not care and contact them directly, reschedule them, and then tell David’s it’s been resolved
> 
> I wish you luck.



And I mean I know they are cancelled bc they disappeared from my Disney app not because David's contacted me lol.

Possibly voucher idea was proposed to reduce owner renter contact-. If the owners assumed renters were taken care of... Maybe some renters thought the voucher sounded great.


----------



## Galun

LAX said:


> People (in general) claim it's a reservation they are paying for because it gives them much more leverage with respect to reimbursement should something turn bad, which is what's happening. I think if a contract specifically spells out that it's the points that renters are paying for, then brokers and owners won't be entangled in this mess, IMHO. If that is the case, then the renters will get back what they paid for, which are the points, once DVC releases them after cancellation. Then, it would be up to the renters to decide what to do with those points whether they expire in 1 month or 1 year.
> 
> I suspect brokers who end up surviving this will need to be much more specific in their contracts as to what renters are paying for to minimize their and owners' exposure to future risks if they haven't already done so (obviously David's isn't).
> 
> LAX



The language is already there.

"This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only ... Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".

Contract states numerous times that it's non refundable, with one clause stating an exception due to an action or omission by the owner, which isn't the case here.  The contract isn't for a confirmed reservation, it's to rent points that represent accommodation.  But again, it's a contract with three different parties, one of which is a Canadian, and the other two parties can be from different states in the US, or from another country. The chance of winning, and collecting if you win, is close to zero.

Now that I think about it, I change my mind on the chance of success in chargeback.  Originally I thought it was much lower.  But then it's really up to the renter to convince the issuing bank.   The investigator at the issuing bank will look at the situation - renter paid for a reservation, DVC canceled it due to closure, but the "broker" won't give a refund.  The average investigator at the issuing bank isn't going to understand all this DVC stuff and differentiate broker vs. Disney, and likely approve the chargeback. Then it's up to David's to present the case to his merchant bank, explain that the renter paid for points instead of an actual reservation, and convince the issuing bank to charge the customer.  Again, common sense would dictate that the renter wins.  Good luck with that.

Yeah... the outlook looks pretty grim for the intermediary I think.  Just look at stub hub.  If they have confidence in winning in a chargeback, they wouldn't offer 120% credit for future purchase, which avoids the chargeback.  They won't be willing to lose 20% if they have confidence in winning the chargeback argument.  This was from a company that was acquired for $4.5 billion in late 2019.  You'd think they have the resources to hire lawyers and explore every possible angle.  This is the solution they come up with - basically paying a 20% premium to any willing takers to avoid the chargeback.


----------



## Sandisw

Galun said:


> The language is already there.
> 
> "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only ... Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".
> 
> Contract states numerous times that it's non refundable, with one clause stating an exception due to an action or omission by the owner, which isn't the case here.  The contract isn't for a confirmed reservation, it's to rent points that represent accommodation.  But again, it's a contract with three different parties, one of which is a Canadian, and the other two parties can be from different states in the US, or from another country. The chance of winning, and collecting if you win, is close to zero.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I change my mind on the chance of success in chargeback.  Originally I thought it was much lower.  But then it's really up to the renter to convince the issuing bank.   The investigator at the issuing bank will look at the situation - renter paid for a reservation, DVC canceled it due to closure, but the "broker" won't give a refund.  The average investigator at the issuing bank isn't going to understand all this DVC stuff and differentiate broker vs. Disney, and likely approve the chargeback. Then it's up to David's to present the case to his merchant bank, explain that the renter paid for points instead of an actual reservation, and convince the issuing bank to charge the customer.  Again, common sense would dictate that the renter wins.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Yeah... the outlook looks pretty grim for the intermediary I think.  Just look at stub hub.  If they have confidence in winning in a chargeback, they wouldn't offer 120% credit for future purchase, which avoids the chargeback.  They won't be willing to lose 20% if they have confidence in winning the chargeback argument.  This was from a company that was acquired for $4.5 billion in late 2019.  You'd think they have the resources to hire lawyers and explore every possible angle.  This is the solution they come up with - basically paying a 20% premium to any willing takers to avoid the chargeback.



Its why it makes no sense to me to see how one can argue the person rented points but not a reservation.

An owner can’t deliver just points to a renter,  unless that renter is another DVC owner.

Maybe it’s me.


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> Maybe moving forward, things will need to be different in order for the rental market to stay in business. Perhaps charge a fee for modifications as it requires extra effort? As an owner, I certainly don't want to worry about some catastrophic event happening down the road and end up coughing up my payment through no fault of my own plus losing all the rented points. The whole idea of renting out points that I can't use is so that I don't have to worry them at all afterwards. If I am still faced with similar risks, then I might as well just gift them to friends and family.
> 
> LAX



Like I said, maybe it is me, but no matter how you word it, a renter is renting a reservation.

I am not sure how many renters would pay for points, if the owner didn’t actually book a room.


----------



## ziravan

DougEMG said:


> I don't know what Dave's contracts look like, but aren't some of the rental contracts out there a *contract to rent points*, which can then be used to make reservations?  If that were the case would that make any difference at all to what is happening or what either party was responsible for?


My contract specifically says that once purchased, THE POINTS belong to the renter. It lists the expiration of the points and says that, within reason, I will work to rebook a trip if necessary. Within reason to me means I won’t do so 5 or 6 times. It also list cancellation policy and says points are subject to that policy and it states that any rebooking is subject to availability and due to the nature of timeshares, could be a significant issue.

Specifically, I sell points not rent reservations. All sales are final transactions.

My contract also has a force majeure clause that says we split the loss if a trip can’t be performed because of circumstances beyond our control. In the case of the one renter that got stranded with an April reservation, it wasn’t a true force majeure because she owns the points and there was plenty of time to rebook, which we did for Fall.

In any case, BECAUSE it wasn’t a true force majeure and because the points were an April UY for an April trip - I could have easily made reuse of them - I offered a full refund. She elected to rebook. It worked out well because she was able to trade Easter upcharge AKV stay for Fall Poly stay for the same number of night.


----------



## Sandisw

ziravan said:


> My contract specifically says that once purchased, THE POINTS belong to the renter. It lists the expiration of the points and says that, within reason, I will work to rebook a trip if necessary. Within reason to me means I won’t do so 5 or 6 times. It also list cancellation policy and says points are subject to that policy and it states that any rebooking is subject to availability and due to the nature of timeshares, could be a significant issue.
> 
> Specifically, I sell points not rent reservations. All sales are final transactions.
> 
> My contract also has a force majeure clause that says we split the loss if a trip can’t be performed because of circumstances beyond our control. In the case of the one renter that got stranded with an April reservation, it wasn’t a true force majeure because she owns the points and there was plenty of time to rebook, which we did for Fall.
> 
> In any case, BECAUSE it wasn’t a true force majeure and because the points were an April UY for an April trip - I could have easily made reuse of them - I offered a full refund. She elected to rebook.



Your contract makes sense to me.


----------



## Amymouse13

ziravan said:


> My contract specifically says that once purchased, THE POINTS belong to the renter. It lists the expiration of the points and says that, within reason, I will work to rebook a trip if necessary. Within reason to me means I won’t do so 5 or 6 times. It also list cancellation policy and says points are subject to that policy and it states that any rebooking is subject to availability and due to the nature of timeshares, could be a significant issue.
> 
> Specifically, I sell points not rent reservations. All sales are final transactions.
> 
> My contract also has a force majeure clause that says we split the loss if a trip can’t be performed because of circumstances beyond our control. In the case of the one renter that got stranded with an April reservation, it wasn’t a true force majeure because she owns the points and there was plenty of time to rebook, which we did for Fall.
> 
> In any case, BECAUSE it wasn’t a true force majeure and because the points were an April UY for an April trip - I could have easily made reuse of them - I offered a full refund. She elected to rebook. It worked out well because she was able to trade Easter upcharge AKV stay for Fall Poly stay for the same number of night.


 
Your own company contract?


----------



## LAX

Galun said:


> The language is already there.
> 
> "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only ... Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".
> 
> Contract states numerous times that it's non refundable, with one clause stating an exception due to an action or omission by the owner, which isn't the case here.  The contract isn't for a confirmed reservation, it's to rent points that represent accommodation.  But again, it's a contract with three different parties, one of which is a Canadian, and the other two parties can be from different states in the US, or from another country. The chance of winning, and collecting if you win, is close to zero.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I change my mind on the chance of success in chargeback.  Originally I thought it was much lower.  But then it's really up to the renter to convince the issuing bank.   The investigator at the issuing bank will look at the situation - renter paid for a reservation, DVC canceled it due to closure, but the "broker" won't give a refund.  The average investigator at the issuing bank isn't going to understand all this DVC stuff and differentiate broker vs. Disney, and likely approve the chargeback. Then it's up to David's to present the case to his merchant bank, explain that the renter paid for points instead of an actual reservation, and convince the issuing bank to charge the customer.  Again, common sense would dictate that the renter wins.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Yeah... the outlook looks pretty grim for the intermediary I think.  Just look at stub hub.  If they have confidence in winning in a chargeback, they wouldn't offer 120% credit for future purchase, which avoids the chargeback.  They won't be willing to lose 20% if they have confidence in winning the chargeback argument.  This was from a company that was acquired for $4.5 billion in late 2019.  You'd think they have the resources to hire lawyers and explore every possible angle.  This is the solution they come up with - basically paying a 20% premium to any willing takers to avoid the chargeback.



I am not talking about what has already happened. I am just saying moving forward, contracts will need to be spelled out CLEARLY so that at least the owners should be shielded from any future risks. If that puts an end to the rental market, then so be it. If I am no better off financially by renting than gifting to friends and family, then what's the point?

LAX


----------



## CraigInPA

lawboy2001 said:


> This is a specific case of a frustrated contract.  The owner cannot provide a room 'through no fault of their own.'  The contract cannot be performed and, normally, the parties are put back to their original possessions -- i.e. money paid is returned.
> 
> That is what should happen, legally.  David's should be paying back the 30% he is holding, to the renter, and the owner should be paying back the 70% they received, to David's or directly to the renter.



Interesting theory, but it ignores the probability that the owner has experienced a loss of value due to the points expiring. And, it ignores the third party to the contract (David's) who facilitated the contract, who purchased a reservation from the owner, and then sold it to the renter. And, it ignores the fact that there are three contracts involved, not just one. There is the problem with simplistic answers like the one you just gave. The situation isn't simple, complicated by the no refunds clause, lack of a force majeure clause, and responsibilities of each party across the 3 contracts.


----------



## CanAdianDad

Galun said:


> The language is already there.
> 
> "This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only ... Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid".
> 
> Contract states numerous times that it's non refundable, with one clause stating an exception due to an action or omission by the owner, which isn't the case here.  The contract isn't for a confirmed reservation, it's to rent points that represent accommodation.  But again, it's a contract with three different parties, one of which is a Canadian, and the other two parties can be from different states in the US, or from another country. The chance of winning, and collecting if you win, is close to zero.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I change my mind on the chance of success in chargeback.  Originally I thought it was much lower.  But then it's really up to the renter to convince the issuing bank.   The investigator at the issuing bank will look at the situation - renter paid for a reservation, DVC canceled it due to closure, but the "broker" won't give a refund.  The average investigator at the issuing bank isn't going to understand all this DVC stuff and differentiate broker vs. Disney, and likely approve the chargeback. Then it's up to David's to present the case to his merchant bank, explain that the renter paid for points instead of an actual reservation, and convince the issuing bank to charge the customer.  Again, common sense would dictate that the renter wins.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Yeah... the outlook looks pretty grim for the intermediary I think.  Just look at stub hub.  If they have confidence in winning in a chargeback, they wouldn't offer 120% credit for future purchase, which avoids the chargeback.  They won't be willing to lose 20% if they have confidence in winning the chargeback argument.  This was from a company that was acquired for $4.5 billion in late 2019.  You'd think they have the resources to hire lawyers and explore every possible angle.  This is the solution they come up with - basically paying a 20% premium to any willing takers to avoid the chargeback.


I would suggest closing the resort is an act of the owner


----------



## ziravan

Amymouse13 said:


> Your own company contract?


No but I have a standard contract I use. I’ll reprint it later tonight.


----------



## ziravan

CanAdianDad said:


> I would suggest closing the resort is an act of the owner


I would disagree with that.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

My contract with Davids says something along the lines of a non refundable payment in exchange for a confirmed reservation using DVC points at *resort* from *check in date* to *check out date*. My guess is that language probably helps in the case of chargebacks and such, but that's just a guess.

We've picked apart these contracts so many times, if there was anything concrete in them leaning one way or the other this would have been put to bed already IMO.


----------



## lawboy2001

CraigInPA said:


> Interesting theory, but it ignores the probability that the owner has experienced a loss of value due to the points expiring. And, it ignores the third party to the contract (David's) who facilitated the contract, who purchased a reservation from the owner, and then sold it to the renter. And, it ignores the fact that there are three contracts involved, not just one. There is the problem with simplistic answers like the one you just gave. The situation isn't simple, complicated by the no refunds clause, lack of a force majeure clause, and responsibilities of each party across the 3 contracts.



I'm discussing the contract between the owner and the renter.  That contact cannot be fulfilled.  The owner has indeed suffered a loss of the value of the property the owner wanted to rent.  But the contract between the owner and the renter doesn't provide for compensation to the owner in the event of frustration.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> My contract with Davids says something along the lines of a non refundable payment in exchange for a confirmed reservation using DVC points at *resort* from *check in date* to *check out date*. My guess is that language probably helps in the case of chargebacks and such, but that's just a guess.
> 
> We've picked apart these contracts so many times, if there was anything concrete in them leaning one way or the other this would have been put to bed already IMO.



Yup! A lawsuit with a judge who could weigh in is probably the only way we would really know! Lol

I would be so surprised if the contracts don’t change,  I’d love to know if they did with new rentals.


----------



## lawboy2001

badeacon said:


> I am not a lawyer and realize that common sense does not apply to the law a lot of times ,but the owner's points that he receives back are not as valuable as they were when rented. To me the points I receive with each use year essentially have a 2 year life span or could be 3 year if borrow into previous year, and some degree of depreciation should  apply to the points. In my case I ,as owner , rented points in June 2019 for an April 2020 stay. The value of my points I receive back now is not the same as they were in June 2019.
> There should  be some shared pain between all parties. If the renter receives all their money back and owner as well as David's give all back, then I do not feel that is fair.
> I also do not feel David's remedy for this situation is fair as the owner and renter share all the pain.



I also think David's remedy stinks, as it is pitched as 'helping out the x family' when it is really about funnelling money back to David's.  And David's isn't taking a haircut on his commish.

Your point about the owners' points for these cancelled reservations are being returned with much less value, and may even be un-useable to the owner, is a valid one.  But that issue would need to be addressed by the contract for there to be any way to recognize the owners' loss.  And it isn't.  Maybe for good reason -- as a renter, would you sign a contract for a non-refundable payment to an owner, that also stated that if the reservation is canceled for some outside reason (fire destroys resort; closure due to epidemic), then the owner will refund only 50% or 60% of the money, to account for the loss of value of the points to the owner?  Of course not.  So we can't attribute that kind of a term to the contract now.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

lawboy2001 said:


> I also think David's remedy stinks, as it is pitched as 'helping out the x family' when it is really about funnelling money back to David's.  And David's isn't taking a haircut on his commish.
> 
> Your point about the owners' points for these cancelled reservations are being returned with much less value, and may even be un-useable to the owner, is a valid one.  But that issue would need to be addressed by the contract for there to be any way to recognize the owners' loss.  And it isn't.  Maybe for good reason -- as a renter, would you sign a contract for a non-refundable payment to an owner, that also stated that if the reservation is canceled for some outside reason (fire destroys resort; closure due to epidemic), then the owner will refund only 50% or 60% of the money, to account for the loss of value of the points to the owner?  Of course not.  So we can't attribute that kind of a term to the contract now.



Their remedy does stink. And their social media behaviour even worse, IMO.

I am so turned off by the way they’re shutting down and deleting almost everything that leans negatively, even when its not argumentative or impolite, and the concerns are valid. People are reaching out on Facebook because communication has been so hard. I can understand and appreciate how hard this is to sort out and to a degree how hard it is to communicate with everyone in a timely fashion, but shutting down conversation on their page makes the whole thing feel shadier than I’m sure it actually is.

I’m grateful for these couple threads discussing this openly on here.


----------



## ziravan

This is my standard contract. These days I strongly suggest pay by check instead of PayPal.

Vacation Points Usage Contract
22 August, 2018

ZIRAVAN (DVC Member) certifies that he has and will maintain, in good standing, an ownership interest in the Disney Vacation Club throughout this contract period, sufficient to carry out the terms of this contract. DVC Member agrees to make this reservation in the tenant's name and benefit in exchange for payment.

Minnie Mouse(Tenant) agrees to purchase points necessary for this reservation and has the ability to make full payment.

This contract is entered into, in good faith, between DVC Member and Tenant for the express purpose of purchasing points necessary to reserve lodging as set forth below.

Names in Tenant's Party:
Minnie Mouse
Mickey Mouse

Unit Description and Location:
Disney's Beach Club Villa, Studio Room, Walt Disney World, FL.

DVC member will make room requests and add ons, including MDE bus transportation, dining plan at tenant's expense, celebration notifications, etc., as requested.

Duration and Dates:
4 nights - Arrival: Sun, November 11, 2018; Departure: Thursday, November 15, 2018. (60 points)

Confirmation number: 1234 5678 9012

Price:
$1000.00
Payments / Deposits:

50% of the payment ($500.00) is due on receipt of confirmation number included in this contract. The balance is due before 60 days prior to check-in, on or before September 12, 2018. Payment can be made via www.paypal.com (tenant pays any fees) to account email ziravan@yomymail.com (not my real email) or check mailed to: Ziravan. 123 Main Street, Anytown,, TX 12335.. Any form of payment returned for “insufficient funds”, or any reason, will initiate automatic cancellation of tenant’s reservations and full retention, by DVC member, of any partial payments received up to that date.

Cancellation and Refunds: Funds received for the purpose of purchasing DVC points for a reservation are non-refundable. Once bought, these points belong exclusively to Tenant.

Tenant will be held to the same terms as a DVC member for cancellation:

Cancellation on the day of arrival will forfeit the purchased points and reservation to Disney.

Points for a reservation cancelled within 30 days of arrival are placed by DVC into a holding account and must be used prior to March 31, 2019 and can only be used to book reservations at any DVC within the next 60 days, subject to limited availability.

If reservation is cancelled greater than 30 days from arrival, reservation can be rebooked anytime prior to April 01, 2019 if there is availability in the DVC booking system (11 months out or less at Beach Club Villas or 7 months out or less at any DVC resort.) These points expire on March 31, 2019. Availability may be limited and the closer to the check-in date a reservation is requested, the more difficult it might be to find suitable availability.
Tenant may request, and DVC member will make reasonable attempts, to make reservation changes as directed by the tenant, within the limitations noted above. Tenant should be aware that this might not be possible because of limited room availability.

If Tenant is unable to complete reservation before March 31, 2019, DVC member, at Tenant's request, will try to re-rent these points to another party and refund any amounts received up to the value of the reservation in this contract. Tenant is advised that, depending on when reservation is cancelled and what is available, that DVC member might not be able to recoup the full cost of this reservation on short notice.

Tenant may not sublet this reservation to any party.

DVC member will not make any changes to the reservation without first being directed to do so by the tenant.

Force Majeure: In the case of a catastrophic event beyond the control of the parties to fulfill the essentials of this contract, to provide the specified lodging during the specified times, both parties agree to equally share the loss of non-recoverable reservation/points.

Tenant agrees to follow the DVC rules and accepts responsibility and liability for the use of DVC property, including no pets. Tenant agrees to indemnify and hold harmless DVC member due to any actions taken by tenant, tenant's named party and/or tenant's guests during the execution of this reservation.

Tenant and DVC Member hereby agree to the terms of this contract. Transfer and acceptance of funds constitutes agreement to terms.

DVC Member - Ziravan

Tenant – Minnie Mouse


----------



## LAX

DGsAtBLT said:


> Their remedy does stink. And their social media behaviour even worse, IMO.
> 
> I am so turned off by the way they’re shutting down and deleting almost everything that leans negatively, even when its not argumentative or impolite, and the concerns are valid. People are reaching out on Facebook because communication has been so hard. I can understand and appreciate how hard this is to sort out and to a degree how hard it is to communicate with everyone in a timely fashion, but shutting down conversation on their page makes the whole thing feel shadier than I’m sure it actually is.
> 
> I’m grateful for these couple threads discussing this openly on here.



While I don't think David's is trying to do anything shady, the way he has been handling this has certainly drummed up so much negativity/loss of confidence that I am not sure his reputation is reparable, IMHO. And this is coming from an outside observer who has had positive experiences in the past. I just don't see how any owners currently have active reservations that have had their 30% of payment withheld will ever want to deal with David's again in the future. Without owners' points, there is no rental business.

LAX


----------



## DougEMG

ziravan said:


> This is my standard contract. These days I strongly suggest pay by check instead of PayPal.
> 
> Vacation Points Usage Contract
> 22 August, 2018
> 
> ZIRAVAN (DVC Member) certifies that he has and will maintain, in good standing, an ownership interest in the Disney Vacation Club throughout this contract period, sufficient to carry out the terms of this contract. DVC Member agrees to make this reservation in the tenant's name and benefit in exchange for payment.
> 
> Minnie Mouse(Tenant) agrees to purchase points necessary for this reservation and has the ability to make full payment.
> 
> This contract is entered into, in good faith, between DVC Member and Tenant for the express purpose of purchasing points necessary to reserve lodging as set forth below.
> 
> Names in Tenant's Party:
> Minnie Mouse
> Mickey Mouse
> 
> Unit Description and Location:
> Disney's Beach Club Villa, Studio Room, Walt Disney World, FL.
> 
> DVC member will make room requests and add ons, including MDE bus transportation, dining plan at tenant's expense, celebration notifications, etc., as requested.
> 
> Duration and Dates:
> 4 nights - Arrival: Sun, November 11, 2018; Departure: Thursday, November 15, 2018. (60 points)
> 
> Confirmation number: 1234 5678 9012
> 
> Price:
> $1000.00
> Payments / Deposits:
> 
> 50% of the payment ($500.00) is due on receipt of confirmation number included in this contract. The balance is due before 60 days prior to check-in, on or before September 12, 2018. Payment can be made via www.paypal.com (tenant pays any fees) to account email ziravan@yomymail.com (not my real email) or check mailed to: Ziravan. 123 Main Street, Anytown,, TX 12335.. Any form of payment returned for “insufficient funds”, or any reason, will initiate automatic cancellation of tenant’s reservations and full retention, by DVC member, of any partial payments received up to that date.
> 
> Cancellation and Refunds: Funds received for the purpose of purchasing DVC points for a reservation are non-refundable. Once bought, these points belong exclusively to Tenant.
> 
> Tenant will be held to the same terms as a DVC member for cancellation:
> 
> Cancellation on the day of arrival will forfeit the purchased points and reservation to Disney.
> 
> Points for a reservation cancelled within 30 days of arrival are placed by DVC into a holding account and must be used prior to March 31, 2019 and can only be used to book reservations at any DVC within the next 60 days, subject to limited availability.
> 
> If reservation is cancelled greater than 30 days from arrival, reservation can be rebooked anytime prior to April 01, 2019 if there is availability in the DVC booking system (11 months out or less at Beach Club Villas or 7 months out or less at any DVC resort.) These points expire on March 31, 2019. Availability may be limited and the closer to the check-in date a reservation is requested, the more difficult it might be to find suitable availability.
> Tenant may request, and DVC member will make reasonable attempts, to make reservation changes as directed by the tenant, within the limitations noted above. Tenant should be aware that this might not be possible because of limited room availability.
> 
> If Tenant is unable to complete reservation before March 31, 2019, DVC member, at Tenant's request, will try to re-rent these points to another party and refund any amounts received up to the value of the reservation in this contract. Tenant is advised that, depending on when reservation is cancelled and what is available, that DVC member might not be able to recoup the full cost of this reservation on short notice.
> 
> Tenant may not sublet this reservation to any party.
> 
> DVC member will not make any changes to the reservation without first being directed to do so by the tenant.
> 
> Force Majeure: In the case of a catastrophic event beyond the control of the parties to fulfill the essentials of this contract, to provide the specified lodging during the specified times, both parties agree to equally share the loss of non-recoverable reservation/points.
> 
> Tenant agrees to follow the DVC rules and accepts responsibility and liability for the use of DVC property, including no pets. Tenant agrees to indemnify and hold harmless DVC member due to any actions taken by tenant, tenant's named party and/or tenant's guests during the execution of this reservation.
> 
> Tenant and DVC Member hereby agree to the terms of this contract. Transfer and acceptance of funds constitutes agreement to terms.
> 
> DVC Member - Ziravan
> 
> Tenant – Minnie Mouse



Thanks for posting


----------



## ziravan

If you look at my contract above, this isn’t a true force majeure. Because the tenant owns the points, DVC refunding them to me means they still belong to tenant. In other words, by rebooking, we were still able to fulfill the terms of the contract.

had the points been so close to expiration that rebooking wasn’t possible, the force majeure clause would have kicked in: the renter would be out the use of the points but we had agreed to split the financial value of that loss.


----------



## fsjking

LAX said:


> I would leave that to those who have a law degree and actually practice it for a living to figure that out (perhaps you might be one in real life).
> 
> LAX



I think a pretty clear example would be are you aware of a single instance where DVC will talk to a renter and allow them to make a reservation? If the points now belong to the renter, they could call Disney and make reservations or do anything else an owner can do with points. As we know non-owners cannot do that, you did not sell them points. You could not in any way transfer points to them short of selling them your shares in the resort and making them members. You are selling a reservation based on points, but not the points themselves. 




ziravan said:


> My contract specifically says that once purchased, THE POINTS belong to the renter. It lists the expiration of the points and says that, within reason, I will work to rebook a trip if necessary. Within reason to me means I won’t do so 5 or 6 times. It also list cancellation policy and says points are subject to that policy and it states that any rebooking is subject to availability and due to the nature of timeshares, could be a significant issue.
> 
> Specifically, I sell points not rent reservations. All sales are final transactions.
> 
> My contract also has a force majeure clause that says we split the loss if a trip can’t be performed because of circumstances beyond our control. In the case of the one renter that got stranded with an April reservation, it wasn’t a true force majeure because she owns the points and there was plenty of time to rebook, which we did for Fall.
> 
> In any case, BECAUSE it wasn’t a true force majeure and because the points were an April UY for an April trip - I could have easily made reuse of them - I offered a full refund. She elected to rebook. It worked out well because she was able to trade Easter upcharge AKV stay for Fall Poly stay for the same number of night.



Same as above. You can't sell them points. Your contract with DVC doesn't allow you to do that.


----------



## Sandisw

ziravan said:


> If you look at my contract above, this isn’t a true force majeure. Because the tenant owns the points, DVC refunding them to me means they still belong to tenant. In other words, by rebooking, we were still able to fulfill the terms of the contract.
> 
> had the points been so close to expiration that rebooking wasn’t possible, the force majeure clause would have kicked in: the renter would be out the use of the points but we had agreed to split the financial value of that loss.



Your contract is a great one and if I ever do rent, I’ll be borrowing it. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## ziravan

IANAL and my major experience with contracts is oil leases. The oil companies have very specific deadlines to meet certain obligations and without a force majeure for things beyond their control, they could lose all the leases for a well over a single incident.

So, my experience there is what prompted me to add a force majeure clause. There are several old old threads on drafting a rental contract and I took the parts I liked best and created my own.

If you read mine, I purposely created more than one alternative solution if a renter were to get into a bind. Another renter recently had a child schedule a wedding during her trip. No problem, we rescheduled the trip. Life happens. My major fault with the brokers has always been not recognizing that.

I know I know the deal they made with the owners prevents that flexibility. I always viewed flexibility as my main advantage.


----------



## Amymouse13

What percentage of owners that rent, does anyone think, are actually reading this thread?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Just my opinion but I would say small percent 
I own and also rented and I’m in this both ways right now I contacted my April renter and this person was clueless about what was going on and how DVC worked but is experiencing the same frustrations dealing with David’s


----------



## Minniemoo15

ziravan said:


> IANAL and my major experience with contracts is oil leases. The oil companies have very specific deadlines to meet certain obligations and without a force majeure for things beyond their control, they could lose all the leases for a well over a single incident.
> 
> So, my experience there is what prompted me to add a force majeure clause. There are several old old threads on drafting a rental contract and I took the parts I liked best and created my own.
> 
> If you read mine, I purposely created more than one alternative solution if a renter were to get into a bind. Another renter recently had a child schedule a wedding during her trip. No problem, we rescheduled the trip. Life happens. My major fault with the brokers has always been not recognizing that.
> 
> I know I know the deal they made with the owners prevents that flexibility. I always viewed flexibility as my main advantage.



Thanks for sharing. I have rented points through Davids and on my own. I prefer on my own because it allows some level of comfort speaking directly to the owner/renter. Though my contracts state non refundable, it allows me the ability to be flexible within reason. One of my recent renters had to change dates and resorts twice due to personal reasons - no problem, there was availability so I didn’t mind doing so.

Renting independently is a lot more work than going through Davids, but it keeps the human aspect in place which I am realizing is more important than ever.


----------



## McCrae

lawboy2001 said:


> I also think David's remedy stinks, as it is pitched as 'helping out the x family' when it is really about funnelling money back to David's.  And David's isn't taking a haircut on his commish.
> 
> Your point about the owners' points for these cancelled reservations are being returned with much less value, and may even be un-useable to the owner, is a valid one.  But that issue would need to be addressed by the contract for there to be any way to recognize the owners' loss.  And it isn't.  Maybe for good reason -- as a renter, would you sign a contract for a non-refundable payment to an owner, that also stated that if the reservation is canceled for some outside reason (fire destroys resort; closure due to epidemic), then the owner will refund only 50% or 60% of the money, to account for the loss of value of the points to the owner?  Of course not.  So we can't attribute that kind of a term to the contract now.


People did sign a Contract with a no refunds or changes allowed clause and were advised to take out insurance to cover unexpected changes. If renters had this they could recover potential losses.


----------



## Amymouse13

McCrae said:


> People did sign a Contract with a no refunds or changes allowed clause and were advised to take out insurance to cover unexpected changes. If renters had this they could recover potential losses.



Right, but like for me both my reservations are currently cancelled for mid April even if I had travel insurance my reservation is cancelled...


----------



## vnovabri

I have a reservation rented for the end of April and it's not yet cancelled. David's email also said not to cancel the reservation.1 I asked David's if my renters would like to rebook, to avoid having to deal with refunding then getting a new rental in place to get another 70% transferred to me but have not heard back. This would also give me a jump before the mad rush to get a summer reservation. My banking deadline is also end of April, although most of the rented points are unbankable. I am sort of stuck in limbo.


----------



## Amymouse13

vnovabri said:


> I have a reservation rented for the end of April and it's not yet cancelled. David's email also said not to cancel the reservation.1 I asked David's if my renters would like to rebook, to avoid having to deal with refunding then getting a new rental in place to get another 70% transferred to me but have not heard back. This would also give me a jump before the mad rush to get a summer reservation. My banking deadline is also end of April, although most of the rented points are unbankable. I am sort of stuck in limbo.



From reading this thread doesn't sound like David's plans to offer that to renters and instead a voucher - not necessarily linked to previous owner.  As a renter this is what I was told too... That they are working on a voucher program but it may take some time... 

Someone yesterday said their phone lines were down... Idk what's deal with that.


----------



## starry_solo

vnovabri said:


> I have a reservation rented for the end of April and it's not yet cancelled. David's email also said not to cancel the reservation.1 I asked David's if my renters would like to rebook, to avoid having to deal with refunding then getting a new rental in place to get another 70% transferred to me but have not heard back. This would also give me a jump before the mad rush to get a summer reservation. My banking deadline is also end of April, although most of the rented points are unbankable. I am sort of stuck in limbo.



Disney will be cancelling the reservation for you, but if I were you, I would cancel it myself so that whatever points can be banked, can be done quickly, before the banking deadline.

I would also send an email to David's and let him know how many points you have that are unbankable (although he should know that already) and when they expire (again, he should know that already)


----------



## yankeesfan123

I hate this voucher idea. As a renter of points in August, which I believe will be canceled, what good is a voucher to me when David’s declares bankruptcy or just goes out of business? He’s not going to survive this.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> People did sign a Contract with a no refunds or changes allowed clause and were advised to take out insurance to cover unexpected changes. If renters had this they could recover potential losses.



That is not really fair based on reports from renters who did get travel insurance and either found out it’s not covered, or having trouble getting CFAR insurance to cover it.

I also don’t think anyone even thought about a resort closure. Had it been written in the contract, some renters would not have taken the risk, 

Without it, we are left with something implied


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> That is not really fair based on reports from renters who did get travel insurance and either found out it’s not covered, or having trouble getting CFAR insurance to cover it.
> 
> I also don’t think anyone even thought about a resort closure. Had it been written in the contract, some renters would not have taken the risk,
> 
> Without it, we are left with something implied



The contract also said the renter would be renting points. If Disney cancels and returns the points to the owner (regardless of their use year or if they then become useless to the owner), the renter was no longer rented any points.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> I hate this voucher idea. As a renter of points in August, which I believe will be canceled, what good is a voucher to me when David’s declares bankruptcy or just goes out of business? He’s not going to survive this.



We don’t yet know about August and I am holding out hope that it will go.

I also have a renter checking in then as well, and plan to reach out to them if there is still an issue with the broker.  

Your owner may do the same as right now, most are not happy with you.


----------



## ziravan

yankeesfan123 said:


> The contract also said the renter would be renting points. If Disney cancels and returns the points to the owner (regardless of their use year or if they then become useless to the owner), the renter was no longer rented any points.


Rather, the renter now has worthless points.

Similar to a gift card. If I sell you a gift card 11 months before it expires, to a restaurant that is always booked at least 2 months in advance, you’re never going to convince me that that card has the same value 6 weeks before it expires. More importantly, you aren’t going to convince me as an owner that that’s my problem not yours. 

The renter bought a reservation. The owner sold the potential value in the points. For many, both are now gone.

Its just not so simple to say, not my problem. Since the owner has 70% of the transaction already, this argument doesn’t seem well-suited to finding a reasonable solution.

If I were an owner being told, suck it up, buttercup, my response would be - no, turnip. Good luck squeezing me.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> That is not really fair based on reports from renters who did get travel insurance and either found out it’s not covered, or having trouble getting CFAR insurance to cover it.
> 
> I also don’t think anyone even thought about a resort closure. Had it been written in the contract, some renters would not have taken the risk,
> 
> Without it, we are left with something implied



I agree it’s a hard nosed way to look at things. If it came to a court case this would be the defence used.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> Right, but like for me both my reservations are currently cancelled for mid April even if I had travel insurance my reservation is cancelled...


Insurance would payout for uncoverable losses.


----------



## ziravan

McCrae said:


> Insurance would payout for uncoverable losses.


The cancel for any reason CFAR policies are apparently saying no coverage because the renter didn’t cancel, WDW did and therefore, the renter has recourse under the contract for non-performance.

With these broker contracts, that’s very debatable hence the length of this thread.


----------



## CraigInPA

lawboy2001 said:


> I'm discussing the contract between the owner and the renter.  That contact cannot be fulfilled.  The owner has indeed suffered a loss of the value of the property the owner wanted to rent.  But the contract between the owner and the renter doesn't provide for compensation to the owner in the event of frustration.



The contract between the "owner" and "renter" also includes the broker. It's a 3 way contract. You're again over simplifying the issue. You are correct that the contract does not provide compensation to the owner in the event the contract cannot be fulfilled, nor does it contemplate the agreement cannot be fulfilled. You'll note that the contract puts the entire loss upon the renter with the "no refunds, no changes" wording. Because the party that drafted the contract did not include a force majeure, it's clear that they meant the contract to be irrevocable. All 3 parties "signed" under the explicit understanding of "no refunds, no changes". By the strict wording of the contract, the renter is going to suffer the entire loss. 

However, the renter also has a separate agreement with the broker, which cannot be fulfilled either. The broker has stated that agreement is "void", probably because it shifts the loss to the broker because it doesn't make reference to points, but instead it talks about a reservation. So, while the 3 way agreement puts the loss on the renter, the broker is responsible for the loss under the 2 party renter-broker agreement because the reservation disappeared through no fault of any of the 3 parties. As the party drafting that agreement, the broker cannot claim incompetence in drafting the agreement, or an unconscionable agreement, so they are stuck with it. 

Between the broker and the owner is another agreement, which is clear that the broker is paying for points converted into a reservation. It is also clear that that agreement is still in force, leaving the broker on the hook to pay the owner regardless of whether the reservation is cancelled.


----------



## yankeesfan123

In my v


ziravan said:


> Rather, the renter now has worthless points.
> 
> Similar to a gift card. If I sell you a gift card 11 months before it expires, to a restaurant that is always booked at least 2 months in advance, you’re never going to convince me that that card has the same value 6 weeks before it expires. More importantly, you aren’t going to convince me as an owner that that’s my problem not yours.
> 
> The renter bought a reservation. The owner sold the potential value in the points. For many, both are now gone.
> 
> Its just not so simple to say, not my problem. Since the owner has 70% of the transaction already, this argument doesn’t seem well-suited to finding a reasonable solution.
> 
> If I were an owner being told, suck it up, buttercup, my response would be - no, turnip. Good luck squeezing me.



In my view, the owner has the useless points. I agreed to rent points for very specific dates. This did not occur (for arguments sake). The points were put back into the owners account by Disney. The owner has the points and the money. The renter has no points and lost their money. 

That being said, it seems like all owners and renters are doing their best to help each other out. Hopefully brokers don’t get in the way.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> We don’t yet know about August and I am holding out hope that it will go.
> 
> I also have a renter checking in then as well, and plan to reach out to them if there is still an issue with the broker.
> 
> Your owner may do the same as right now, most are not happy with you.



Are you my owner?!


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> Are you my owner?!



Lol.  No idea.  It’s a PVB reservation.


----------



## tallguy001

But they signed a contract that cannot be performed - therefore the contract no longer exists. Whether it says it is "refundable" or not is irrelevant.


----------



## PrincessNelly

McCrae said:


> People did sign a Contract with a no refunds or changes allowed clause and were advised to take out insurance to cover unexpected changes. If renters had this they could recover potential losses.


Insurance is not as cut & dry as you believe it to be, especially in a pandemic. 

I've also said it before, but IMO "no refunds" is not the same as a contract not fulfilled.


----------



## Dentam

Following this thread since I rented points through David's to stay at the Boardwalk Labor Day week.


----------



## ziravan

tallguy001 said:


> But they signed a contract that cannot be performed - therefore the contract no longer exists. Whether it says it is "refundable" or not is irrelevant.


The owner’s contract with the broker HAS been performed for these dates. That contract was to make the reservation and not do anything to cause it to cancel due to your own negligence.

Check. And Check.

I think it’s a silly argument that the owner is an extension of DVCMC but even that argument has sailed. The State of Florida is not allowing check ins. In any case, none of this involves culpability - negligence- on the part of the owner, which was an expressed element of the contract.

Whatever deal the renter had with the broker - the owner is a non-party to that deal. This is why David was telling renters that their contract was void yet telling owners to “follow their hearts” and not their contracts. Both can be and apparently are true at once. The renter may no longer have an enforceable contract, but the owner does and that contract was fulfilled.

If I were an owner here, I would not refund to David’s so that he can issue a worthless travel voucher. I also wouldn’t rebook for a 3rd party. I’d either agree to refund directly to the renter (assuming my points still had some value) or rebook for the renter. If I rebooked directly for the renter, I’d eat the 30%, if through the broker, I would not rebook without being paid in full.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

PrincessNelly said:


> Insurance is not as cut & dry as you believe it to be, especially in a pandemic.
> 
> I've also said it before, but IMO "no refunds" is not the same as a contract not fulfilled.



If insurance was as simple as people have been implying I would have been done with this thread ages ago. That recommended insurance is sending many of us right back to David’s for a refund anyways.


----------



## toniosmom

I finally got tired of waiting and reached out to my renter.  She spoke with someone at David's back on March 13th about rebooking in November and they confirmed availability and said they would take care of it.  The new reservation is one point different from the existing one.  She never heard from them again and was so relieved to get my email.  Her reservation was cancelled by Disney, so the points were returned to me.  I reached out to David's again....no response, so I went ahead and booked the new reservation.  Since David's is aware of the renter's new booking dates, I felt comfortable rebooking it.  The renter was so relieved because this stay was a couple of days prior to a cruise (that they already rebooked).  Now I just need David's to update the rental agreement and we're all good.


----------



## PrincessNelly

ziravan said:


> The owner’s contract with the broker HAS been performed for these dates. That contract was to make the reservation and not do anything to cause it to cancel due to your own negligence.
> 
> Check. And Check.
> 
> I think it’s a silly argument that the owner is an extension of DVCMC but even that argument has sailed. The State of Florida is not allowing check ins. In any case, none of this involves culpability - negligence- on the part of the owner, which was an expressed element of the contract.
> 
> Whatever deal the renter had with the broker - the owner is a non-party to that deal. This is why David was telling renters that their contract was void yet telling owners to “follow their hearts” and not their contracts. Both can be and apparently are true at once. The renter may no longer have an enforceable contract, but the owner does and that contract was fulfilled.
> 
> If I were an owner here, I would not refund to David’s so that he can issue a worthless travel voucher. I also wouldn’t rebook for a 3rd party. I’d either agree to refund directly to the renter (assuming my points still had some value) or rebook for the renter. If I rebooked directly for the renter, I’d eat the 30%, if through the broker, I would not rebook without being paid in full.


At this point, the argument is whether a renter is entitled to a cash refund & it seems that they are. Whether the owner or David's has to pay that refund is almost a separate issue.


----------



## CraigInPA

tallguy001 said:


> But they signed a contract that cannot be performed - therefore the contract no longer exists. Whether it says it is "refundable" or not is irrelevant.



The contract was "performed" by all parties. It became impossible to fulfill due to the act of a third party. That doesn't make it "no longer exist". It makes it impossible to fulfill. You then need to look at the hierarchy of contract law to see how this plays out. 

1. was the agreement to fulfill something that was illegal (like killing someone)? No. 

2. is there wording in the agreement over what should happen if the agreement becomes impossible to fulfill due to actions of a third party? No. 

3. is there wording that contemplates that the agreement cannot be fulfilled? No. 

4. did the parties enter into the agreement understanding that the contract may not be able to be fulfilled because of a third party? YES.

4A. Is there wording that apportions loss in the event of a non-fulfilled contract? YES. "no refunds, no changes" terms puts the entire risk of loss on the renter. The important thing is the "no changes" clause, which does not permit the reservation to be changed in any way whatsoever after the agreement is signed. Without wording that states what happens when the resort is closed, the strict language of the contract has to be enforced.

Under consumer protection laws, generally a consumer has to get a value for value received. So, while the 3 way agreement puts the loss on the renter, the separate agreement between the broker and the renter puts the loss to the broker.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

starry_solo said:


> Disney will be cancelling the reservation for you, but if I were you, I would cancel it myself so that whatever points can be banked, can be done quickly, before the banking deadline.
> 
> I would also send an email to David's and let him know how many points you have that are unbankable (although he should know that already) and when they expire (again, he should know that already)


If it was me, I would not cancel the reservation, because it would void the contract with David's and they could use that as the reason not to pay the final 30%. Disney will cancel it themselves, before check in day and that should be in time for the point banking deadline if it is end of the month.


----------



## meryll83

What are people’s thoughts on trying to claim via travel insurance vs credit card payment dispute?
Not sure what might be the best route, if it comes to it for me...

I think I might have an excess on the travel insurance claim, even if it is successful, I’m wondering if the credit card is the way forward... but will they expect me to have tried my insurance company first?


----------



## vnovabri

vnovabri said:


> I have a reservation rented for the end of April and it's not yet cancelled. David's email also said not to cancel the reservation.1 I asked David's if my renters would like to rebook, to avoid having to deal with refunding then getting a new rental in place to get another 70% transferred to me but have not heard back. This would also give me a jump before the mad rush to get a summer reservation. My banking deadline is also end of April, although most of the rented points are unbankable. I am sort of stuck in limbo.



Well I heard back. Among other things, they indicated that "Due to the uncertainty of the situation, we are currently holding off on securing reservations in the summer. By having the Disney Vacation Club cancel the reservations, no one is liable and the points will be put into the proper use year for rental.". 

If this is true this does not help me much because the majority of the points used for this reservation were banked points and if they arent allowing rentals over the summer then I cannot re-rent my points with them. I guess with all this I will probably return the money, cancel my reservation and try to rebook a rental with someone else.


----------



## MICKIMINI

LAX said:


> he whole idea of renting out points that I can't use is so that I don't have to worry them at all afterwards. If I am still faced with similar risks, then I might as well just gift them to friends and family.


Yes, agreed - that is why we use a broker (or used) so we don't have to deal with anything.  From now on, longer stays, bigger villas and gifting extra points.  I will only rent points with friends that understand the deal and any issues can be resolved because we trust each other and there is no one "blocking" the way!


----------



## DGsAtBLT

vnovabri said:


> Well I heard back. Among other things, they indicated that "Due to the uncertainty of the situation, we are currently holding off on securing reservations in the summer. By having the Disney Vacation Club cancel the reservations, no one is liable and the points will be put into the proper use year for rental.".
> 
> If this is true this does not help me much because the majority of the points used for this reservation were banked points and if they arent allowing rentals over the summer then I cannot re-rent my points with them. I guess with all this I will probably return the money, cancel my reservation and try to rebook a rental with someone else.



That is interesting regarding summer rentals. That really makes their whole rebooking or re-renting for another party much more difficult. I would think there are a lot of owners whose points may have come back usable but not if they aren’t reserving until after summer.

Not that I think they’re incorrect in their thinking, one of the reasons I am strongly against a credit is because I think it’s going to be a lot longer than many believe until we can actually travel again.


----------



## Sandisw

ziravan said:


> The owner’s contract with the broker HAS been performed for these dates. That contract was to make the reservation and not do anything to cause it to cancel due to your own negligence.
> 
> Check. And Check.
> 
> I think it’s a silly argument that the owner is an extension of DVCMC but even that argument has sailed. The State of Florida is not allowing check ins. In any case, none of this involves culpability - negligence- on the part of the owner, which was an expressed element of the contract.
> 
> Whatever deal the renter had with the broker - the owner is a non-party to that deal. This is why David was telling renters that their contract was void yet telling owners to “follow their hearts” and not their contracts. Both can be and apparently are true at once. The renter may no longer have an enforceable contract, but the owner does and that contract was fulfilled.
> 
> If I were an owner here, I would not refund to David’s so that he can issue a worthless travel voucher. I also wouldn’t rebook for a 3rd party. I’d either agree to refund directly to the renter (assuming my points still had some value) or rebook for the renter. If I rebooked directly for the renter, I’d eat the 30%, if through the broker, I would not rebook without being paid in full.



I agree,  I think what we have seen over the past few weeks is that the voided contract is more with David’s and renter, but the owner contract with David’s is different.

The piece of owner contract up in the air is the 30% and it’s clear from posts here and elsewhere he is not paying that to owners.  He seems to have decided, on his own, that because resort closed, that is not due.  Not sure what an owner can due to recover it,

But, I will definitely not be sending any money to David’s.  If my August trip for renters can happen because of resort closure I will reschedule them on my own, and tell David’s, I will waive my right to the 30% in exchange for dealing with renter directly.


----------



## McCrae

ziravan said:


> The cancel for any reason CFAR policies are apparently saying no coverage because the renter didn’t cancel, WDW did and therefore, the renter has recourse under the contract for non-performance.
> 
> With these broker contracts, that’s very debatable hence the length of this thread.



If you had this type  Of insurance and you didn’t cancel...have to ask why...it wasn’t a sudden surprise.


----------



## McCrae

PrincessNelly said:


> Insurance is not as cut & dry as you believe it to be, especially in a pandemic.
> 
> I've also said it before, but IMO "no refunds" is not the same as a contract not fulfilled.


All that has been established is that it’s a complex matter. It’s not clear if anyone has liability. Good chance renters will be fully refunded through credit card chargeback. Owners potentially lose 30% and David’s are likely lose lose 70%.


----------



## badeacon

This is how David's responded to me when I asked why they were not accepting attempt to rebook original renter.

"after carefully examining the impact of COVID19 on our Guests as well as Disney Vacation Club Owners, that have rented their points, we have been advised that in order to maintain industry standards, maintain consistency for each guest as well as continue with our business model a Travel Credit is being offered to all guest who have a check in impacted by the closure of all Walt Disney Resorts.
In order to facilitate thousand of our guests with the Travel Credit we are asking for The DVC Owner that rented their points for an accommodation that no longer exists to either send the 70% back or to re-rent their points that they are receiving back into their account. The funds from the DVC Owner in conjunction with our commission will be going towards funding the Travel Credits that are allocated to each guest impacted."


----------



## McCrae

meryll83 said:


> What are people’s thoughts on trying to claim via travel insurance vs credit card payment dispute?
> Not sure what might be the best route, if it comes to it for me...
> 
> I think I might have an excess on the travel insurance claim, even if it is successful, I’m wondering if the credit card is the way forward... but will they expect me to have tried my insurance company first?


 Credit Card charge back is the easier path.


----------



## MICKIMINI

yankeesfan123 said:


> In my v
> 
> 
> In my view, the owner has the useless points. I agreed to rent points for very specific dates. This did not occur (for arguments sake). The points were put back into the owners account by Disney. The owner has the points and the money. The renter has no points and lost their money.
> 
> That being said, it seems like all owners and renters are doing their best to help each other out. Hopefully brokers don’t get in the way.


...the problem is _we paid the broker to be "in the way"_ and it is not clear if as owners we are somehow breaking the contract by contacting the renter directly.   The brokers chose to be in business by being "_in the way". _


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> If you had this type  Of insurance and you didn’t cancel...have to ask why...it wasn’t a sudden surprise.



From the reports I have read, the companies seem to be telling renters the resort closure, whether they are saying they canceled or not, automatically means its no longer a non-refundable expense.    That is what they are dealing with.  

So, as soon as Disney announces the resort closing, CFAR says the renter can’t cancel, because Disney already did.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

badeacon said:


> This is how David's responded to me when I asked why they were not accepting attempt to rebook original renter.
> 
> "after carefully examining the impact of COVID19 on our Guests as well as Disney Vacation Club Owners, that have rented their points, we have been advised that in order to maintain industry standards, maintain consistency for each guest as well as continue with our business model a Travel Credit is being offered to all guest who have a check in impacted by the closure of all Walt Disney Resorts.
> In order to facilitate thousand of our guests with the Travel Credit we are asking for The DVC Owner that rented their points for an accommodation that no longer exists to either send the 70% back or to re-rent their points that they are receiving back into their account. The funds from the DVC Owner in conjunction with our commission will be going towards funding the Travel Credits that are allocated to each guest impacted."



Translation: We are asking the DVC owner to send back the 70% in order to allow us to issue a travel credit so we do not have to send back a single cent issuing a full refund to the renter, allowing us to live another day.

Renters feels pain, owners feel pain, David’s feels nothing.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> Translation: We are asking the DVC owner to send back the 70% in order to allow us to issue a travel credit so we do not have to send back a single cent issuing a full refund to the renter, allowing us to live another day.
> 
> Renters feels pain, owners feel pain, David’s feels nothing.



And, the fact that this is the model, it does two things..makes claims it is a non refundable loss for CFAR harder, and allows him to hope to win CC chargebacks because he is offering renters something for their money,

I am sick to my stomach that I am stuck with his service.  First time using, thought it was sooo worth it in how easy it way, and now just don’t like it,

He is going to have lots of angry owners and renters, and that won’t be good for his business.  Renters should definitely do one thing only...CC chargeback...even if they lose...especially if they know the owners are being asked to refund money.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> And, the fact that this is the model, it does two things..makes claims it is a non refundable loss for CFAR harder, and allows him to hope to win CC chargebacks because he is offering renters something for their money,
> 
> I am sick to my stomach that I am stuck with his service.  First time using, thought it was sooo worth it in how easy it way, and now just don’t like it,



We have had multiple really good experiences with them in the past, and they were really great to deal with before this. All the more disappointing to see how poorly this is all being handled.


----------



## Marionnette

vnovabri said:


> Well I heard back. Among other things, they indicated that "Due to the uncertainty of the situation, we are currently holding off on securing reservations in the summer. By having the Disney Vacation Club cancel the reservations, no one is liable and the points will be put into the proper use year for rental.".
> 
> If this is true this does not help me much because the majority of the points used for this reservation were banked points and if they arent allowing rentals over the summer then I cannot re-rent my points with them. I guess with all this I will probably return the money, cancel my reservation and try to rebook a rental with someone else.


I guess I’m a much more hardened businessperson.

I would allow Disney to cancel the reservation if they haven’t already. That way, I will not violate my agreement with David’s.

Then I would tell David’s that I would be attempting to re-rent those points on my own before they expire and *IF* I was successful they would get back their 70%, minus the $4.50/pt commission they charged me for brokering the canceled reservation.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

DGsAtBLT said:


> We have had multiple really good experiences with them in the past, and they were really great to deal with before this. All the more disappointing to see how poorly this is all being handled.



........and so exists the House of Cards that is only exposed once the right wind blows...........


----------



## Krandor

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> ........and so exists the House of Cards that is only exposed once the right wind blows...........



Yep.  I think the number of owners wanting to use them in the future is going to go way down.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Krandor said:


> Yep.  I think the number of owners wanting to use them in the future is going to go way down.



Yup, both owners and renters.

I know a lot of people think this will be forgotten in favour of cheaper prices once this blows over, but I really don’t think so. My guess is they rely a lot on repeat business and online word of mouth, both which are going to take a massive hit here.

And as an aside, I was kind of shocked when I saw how much more expensive my room was for the same dates in 2021. It had gone up with David’s almost $100 a night from what we paid for 2020. It’s only about a 30% savings off current Disney rack rates, but how much do we think those will actually increase this coming year given the circumstances? That 30% is the kind of discount Disney currently offers, never mind what they’ll be offering after this all shakes out. Who is going to take on risk for minimal savings? At the very least I think they’re going to end up having to price drop to draw the risk taking bargain hunters in.


----------



## Minniemoo15

DGsAtBLT said:


> Yup, both owners and renters.
> 
> I know a lot of people think this will be forgotten in favour of cheaper prices once this blows over, but I really don’t think so. My guess is they rely a lot on repeat business and online word of mouth, both which are going to take a massive hit here.
> 
> And as an aside, I was kind of shocked when I saw how much more expensive my room was for the same dates in 2021. It had gone up with David’s almost $100 a night from what we paid for 2020. It’s only about a 30% savings off current Disney rack rates, but how much do we think those will actually increase this coming year given the circumstances? That 30% is the kind of discount Disney currently offers, never mind what they’ll be offering after this all shakes out. Who is going to take on risk for minimal savings? At the very least I think they’re going to end up having to price drop to draw the risk taking bargain hunters in.




That's another thing - the cost savings of renting has be pretty significant to take the risks, especially after this.
In 2019, we rented points through Davids for BCV. My inlaws didn't want to take the risks and booked at BC directly through Disney. When all was said and done (after Disney promos, etc), they only paid around $40 more per night than we did. I would pay that in a heartbeat for the peace of mind of a fully refundable vacation. 

We since have become DVC members ourselves and I am especially glad to have control over my own reservations.


----------



## Sandisw

Minniemoo15 said:


> That's another thing - the cost savings of renting has be pretty significant to take the risks, especially after this.
> In 2019, we rented points through Davids for BCV. My inlaws didn't want to take the risks and booked at BC directly through Disney. When all was said and done (after Disney promos, etc), they only paid around $40 more per night than we did. I would pay that in a heartbeat for the peace of mind of a fully refundable vacation.
> 
> We since have become DVC members ourselves and I am especially glad to have control over my own reservations.



Given the hit Disney is taking as well, I expect pretty good cash promos in the next year, making renting, even less of a deal, especially when you add in the cost of travel insurance to protect yourself from resort closing or anything out of your control.


----------



## Minniemoo15

Sandisw said:


> Given the hit Disney is taking as well, I expect pretty good cash promos in the next year, making renting, even less of a deal, especially when you add in the cost of travel insurance to protect yourself from resort closing or anything out of your control.



Exactly. Rental prices have risen so much in the last few years. This was great for me as a new owner who had extra points to rent, but I don’t think it’s sustainable going forward. In 2018 we paid $300/night to rent points at BCV , 2019 was 340$/night, and i just looked at 2021 for fun - almost $400/night for the week we always travel. That’s a big jump.


----------



## Krandor

DGsAtBLT said:


> Yup, both owners and renters.
> 
> I know a lot of people think this will be forgotten in favour of cheaper prices once this blows over, but I really don’t think so. My guess is they rely a lot on repeat business and online word of mouth, both which are going to take a massive hit here.



I think there will be people willing to rent for deals but with the way owners are being asked to return all the money even if their points are now going to expire they may be less likely to want to do that. The no refunds was what protected owners and that is shown now to matter now making it much more of a risk for an owner to rent points through davids vs just doing it themselves. I think this move to ask for the money back from owners is going to come back and bite David's...and he is still going to have to show they can and will honor these travel vouchers which I think is going to be a problem down the line. 

I think there will be a market for points renting but not sure it will be david's due to how they handled it, but if there is demand another company will come about to meet the demand and learn from what happened here.


----------



## TheWheel

ziravan said:


> The owner’s contract with the broker HAS been performed for these dates. That contract was to make the reservation and not do anything to cause it to cancel due to your own negligence.
> 
> Check. And Check.
> 
> I think it’s a silly argument that the owner is an extension of DVCMC but even that argument has sailed. The State of Florida is not allowing check ins. In any case, none of this involves culpability - negligence- on the part of the owner, which was an expressed element of the contract.
> 
> Whatever deal the renter had with the broker - the owner is a non-party to that deal. This is why David was telling renters that their contract was void yet telling owners to “follow their hearts” and not their contracts. Both can be and apparently are true at once. The renter may no longer have an enforceable contract, but the owner does and that contract was fulfilled.
> 
> If I were an owner here, I would not refund to David’s so that he can issue a worthless travel voucher. I also wouldn’t rebook for a 3rd party. I’d either agree to refund directly to the renter (assuming my points still had some value) or rebook for the renter. If I rebooked directly for the renter, I’d eat the 30%, if through the broker, I would not rebook without being paid in full.


The renters contract specifically states "...including but not limited to negligence..." which is a very different thing than you have stated above.

I'm wondering why you'd feel its a silly argument that a deeded owner is an extension of the ownership agent? When a timeshare property is owned by deed (deeded ownership), it is considered “real” property and you pay property taxes on it. You are not an owner of points but a shared owner of the property. Therefore the closure of the property is an act by the "owner".Things may have changed since but the first round of cancelled reservations were made with no government rule to not allow check-ins. Therefore at least those early affected renter contract have not been fulfilled and they are due a refund. Now, where that refund comes from be it David's or the Owner themselves is another question.


----------



## Krandor

PrincessNelly said:


> The number of confirmed rentals on the www.dvcrentalstore.com discount page is long and I just don't see people renting non-refundable/non-flexible travel right now.



Not a chance. I had a TA booked trip for star wars weekend which I cancelled and got my deposit back. Now with this free dining offerr they have I went on and did another TA booked trip for Sep that way it's done. Am I 100% Sure I'm going to want to go to Sep? no. Too many unknowns right now (when will they open, what will park looks like when they do, etc etc). However I'm fine with booking it because I know I can cancel if I want and/or change it to say marathon weekend. I only have a $200 deposit tied up (the same $200 that was tied up for my april trip).

Would I schedule that september trip through a dvc rental place where I had to pay all up front and had no ability to cancel/change?  Not a chance in the world.


----------



## Amymouse13

As a renter I'm doing chargebacks.  My contract is with David's.  He secured reservations for me that are now cancelled so I should get refund.  I'm not hunting down the owner.  

I'm unsure when to look at rebooking though as I'm not sure when this whole coronavirus will blow over and not see sine wave like reoccurrences.  The current promo is only til September for dining and I'm not sold this is going to blow over by then.  

When we rebook as our tickets are not refundable, it won't be to rent points.


----------



## Applebiscuit

Amymouse13 said:


> As a renter I'm doing chargebacks.  My contract is with David's.  He secured reservations for me that are now cancelled so I should get refund.  I'm not hunting down the owner.
> 
> I'm unsure when to look at rebooking though as I'm not sure when this whole coronavirus will blow over and not see sine wave like reoccurrences.  The current promo is only til September for dining and I'm not sold this is going to blow over by then.
> 
> When we rebook as our tickets are not refundable, it won't be to rent points.



Can you only do chargebacks if you purchased with a Credit Card? I am new to this, and payed for my rental points with a debit card


----------



## tallguy001

Amymouse13 said:


> As a renter I'm doing chargebacks.  My contract is with David's.  He secured reservations for me that are now cancelled so I should get refund.  I'm not hunting down the owner.
> 
> I'm unsure when to look at rebooking though as I'm not sure when this whole coronavirus will blow over and not see sine wave like reoccurrences.  The current promo is only til September for dining and I'm not sold this is going to blow over by then.
> 
> When we rebook as our tickets are not refundable, it won't be to rent points.



Chargeback is the only way to go. David makes it difficult to for owners and renters to connect. Owners shouldn't be expected to pay $$ back. Renters paid David and that is where they should get their money back. No need for renters to parse the contract language.


----------



## tallguy001

Applebiscuit said:


> Can you only do chargebacks if you purchased with a Credit Card? I am new to this, and payed for my rental points with a debit card



Explain your situation to your bank. Each bank may have different rules, but I am guessing they will work closely with their valued customers on something like this.


----------



## waltonmkb

I rented points for May.  It hasn't been officially closed yet so I'm waiting in limbo.  I am planning on doing a chargeback when my reservation is officially canceled.  What happens if he goes bankrupt in the meantime?  Can you still successfully do a chargeback if they go bankrupt?


----------



## Matty B13

Applebiscuit said:


> I am new to this, and payed for my rental points with a debit card


Just a word of advice, you really shouldn't use a debit card for purchases like this, I know some people like to use it as a budgeting manager, but credit cards offer you much more protection.


----------



## yankeesfan123

waltonmkb said:


> I rented points for May.  It hasn't been officially closed yet so I'm waiting in limbo.  I am planning on doing a chargeback when my reservation is officially canceled.  What happens if he goes bankrupt in the meantime?  Can you still successfully do a chargeback if they go bankrupt?



ding ding. David’s only way out of this is bankruptcy or the equivalent up in Canada. Don’t be surprised if a “Davidina’s Vacation Rentals” opens shortly after...


----------



## Cyberc1978

yankeesfan123 said:


> “Davidina’s Vacation Rentals”


----------



## tallguy001

waltonmkb said:


> I rented points for May.  It hasn't been officially closed yet so I'm waiting in limbo.  I am planning on doing a chargeback when my reservation is officially canceled.  What happens if he goes bankrupt in the meantime?  Can you still successfully do a chargeback if they go bankrupt?



Unsure of Canadian bankruptcy laws. In the US, an "automatic stay" is put into place once the bankruptcy is filed. Once filed, creditors cannot pursue any claims. All creditors will eventually be contacted by the bankruptcy trustee to affirm the debt. Then it is a waiting game.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

I really wish I hadn’t got two more rentals lined up with David’s at the end of the year, the April one is enough of a worry!


----------



## MICKIMINI

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I really wish I hadn’t got two more rentals lined up with David’s at the end of the year, the April one is enough of a worry!


I'm in the same boat with two as well.  I won't be "free" of him until January...if he's even still around.


----------



## CraigInPA

McCrae said:


> All that has been established is that it’s a complex matter. It’s not clear if anyone has liability. Good chance renters will be fully refunded through credit card chargeback. Owners potentially lose 30% and David’s are likely lose lose 70%.



Actually David's would lose the money paid to the owner, assuming the owner refuses to refund based upon their points now being worthless,  PLUS the full amount paid to him by the owner through the credit card charge back. It's a double whammy for David's.


----------



## CraigInPA

DGsAtBLT said:


> I know a lot of people think this will be forgotten in favour of cheaper prices once this blows over, but I really don’t think so. My guess is they rely a lot on repeat business and online word of mouth, both which are going to take a massive hit here.



Don't forget social media. Every time someone mentions David's on facebook or suggests him for someone interested in renting points, someone else will chime in their horror story over this episode.


----------



## Bing Showei

toniosmom said:


> I finally got tired of waiting and reached out to my renter.  She spoke with someone at David's back on March 13th about rebooking in November and they confirmed availability and said they would take care of it.  The new reservation is one point different from the existing one.  She never heard from them again and was so relieved to get my email.  Her reservation was cancelled by Disney, so the points were returned to me.  I reached out to David's again....no response, so I went ahead and booked the new reservation.  Since David's is aware of the renter's new booking dates, I felt comfortable rebooking it.  The renter was so relieved because this stay was a couple of days prior to a cruise (that they already rebooked).  Now I just need David's to update the rental agreement and we're all good.


While this was a decent and generous thing to do, I would caution other owners to think long and hard about going this route as there are serious implications.

On the negative side, by canceling whatever reservation an owner has (as opposed to waiting for Disney to do so), the owner will be in violation of the terms of the contract between the owner and David’s and expose themselves to liabilities that would require at least the return of all monies.

On a potentially positive side, by canceling whatever reservation an owner has in place, a renter would then have a case to demand a refund as the owner failed to hold up their side of the agreement. This is likely the reason why* David’s has been curiously explicit and repeatedly insistent that the owners must NOT cancel their reservation. In all likelihood, that would be grounds for a renter refund *(less David's commission, of course).

All that said, if owners started doing this, I suspect that will only expedite David's eventual demise. And despite an owner opening a new avenue for their renter to become whole, that avenue will shut down instantly with David's bankruptcy declaration, and as an owner, you would still owe that money back to David's.  

The reality at this point is that David’s is going down the course of insolvency, and no one should have any faith that when it comes time to either collect the remaining 30% of their booking, or to cash in on their travel credit that David's will be around to honor either. As we all sit around trying to figure out the right thing to do, David’s realizes this and every decision they are making is to insulate themselves from this inevitability.


----------



## CraigInPA

tallguy001 said:


> Unsure of Canadian bankruptcy laws. In the US, an "automatic stay" is put into place once the bankruptcy is filed. Once filed, creditors cannot pursue any claims. All creditors will eventually be contacted by the bankruptcy trustee to affirm the debt. Then it is a waiting game.



And, based upon the number of potential creditors, could take a considerable amount of time.


----------



## Amymouse13

CraigInPA said:


> And, based upon the number of potential creditors, could take a considerable amount of time.


Right, most credit cards say it can take up to 90 days to resolve disputed charges


----------



## wench

I had rented one night for a stay this coming Sunday.  I just returned the money to David’s today in order to refund the renter.  I don’t believe their contract allows them force refunds in this particular situation, but they’re definitely doing their best to collect them where they can.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

I hate to say it, but I will not make another reservation until I receive payment for the remaining 30% for the April Rental (David’s are now implying that I will get the 30% after I make a new reservation, not the new check in date) than at least I know, that I can honour the reservation for that (new) renter even if David’s go under. I was fully paid in the end for the March rental, so same holds true for any new reservation I am asked to make with those points. I am already bracing myself to let the 3 rentals for December/January complete with just the 70% already received if David’s does not exist by then. I would not cancel, knowing those renters paid in full for their vacations. At least the 70% funded my dues and this summer‘s flights, which we might even get to use, you never know!


----------



## yankeesfan123

wench said:


> I had rented one night for a stay this coming Sunday.  I just returned the money to David’s today in order to refund the renter.  I don’t believe their contract allows them force refunds in this particular situation, but they’re definitely doing their best to collect them where they can.



but David’s isn’t refunding the renter. David’s is giving them a voucher (which might be useless if they fold), and then will force the renter to pay more if, for example, the renter books identical dates next year.  David’s still keeps the actual money.


----------



## badeacon

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I hate to say it, but I will not make another reservation until I receive payment for the remaining 30% for the April Rental (David’s are now implying that I will get the 30% after I make a new reservation, not the new check in date) than at least I know, that I can honour the reservation for that (new) renter even if David’s go under. I was fully paid in the end for the March rental, so same holds true for any new reservation I am asked to make with those points. I am already bracing myself to let the 3 rentals for December/January complete with just the 70% already received if David’s does not exist by then. I would not cancel, knowing those renters paid in full for their vacations. At least the 70% funded my dues and this summer‘s flights, which we might even get to use, you never know!


It must depend on who you correspond with at David's. I have been repeatedly been told that would not receive the remaining 30% until checkin of the re-rent. I have little faith would receive that 30%.


----------



## CarolMN

CraigInPA said:


> Don't forget social media. Every time someone mentions David's on facebook or suggests him for someone interested in renting points, someone else will chime in their horror story over this episode.


What are the other brokers doing?  Haven't seen posts about any other brokers.


----------



## Cyberc1978

CarolMN said:


> What are the other brokers doing?  Haven't seen posts about any other brokers.


I read in a Facebook Group that *******.com had issued a refund to all impacted renters.

There was no word on how that impacted the owners.


----------



## fsjking

yankeesfan123 said:


> but David’s isn’t refunding the renter. David’s is giving them a voucher (which might be useless if they fold), and then will force the renter to pay more if, for example, the renter books identical dates next year.  David’s still keeps the actual money.



Then David's would have to take that actual money and pay the owner that books the voucher stay for that renter. He doesn't just get to keep it.


----------



## yankeesfan123

fsjking said:


> Then David's would have to take that actual money and pay the owner that books the voucher stay for that renter. He doesn't just get to keep it.



... except he keeps the up charge because he charges more now.


----------



## wench

yankeesfan123 said:


> but David’s isn’t refunding the renter. David’s is giving them a voucher (which might be useless if they fold), and then will force the renter to pay more if, for example, the renter books identical dates next year.  David’s still keeps the actual money.


I didn’t realize they weren’t refunding. Although it wouldn’t have affected my decision.  I rented points out because I forgot to cancel a waitlist & it came through.  The points were borrowed from 2021, so I’ll still have time to use them myself.  My conscience is clear that I didn’t keep someone else’s money for something that I could no longer, in good faith, provide.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> Then David's would have to take that actual money and pay the owner that books the voucher stay for that renter. He doesn't just get to keep it.



My issue is that if the owner is being asked to either refund or offer points for rent again, it should be for the original renter, not a future one.  In essence, he is asking the owner to void the original contract that was made between himself, the renter, and the owner, and replace it with a new contract with a new renter.

If he were asking me to void my contract with the renter by sending back the funds, those funds should go to that renter.  If  he were asking me to modify my contract with the renter to allow a change...ie: making new reservation...then it should be for the original renter.

I realize this is what me may feel he needs to do to save his business, but as someone with a contract, I have lost all faith in his business model and think it is a shady way to do things.


----------



## yankeesfan123

wench said:


> I didn’t realize they weren’t refunding. Although it wouldn’t have affected my decision.  I rented points out because I forgot to cancel a waitlist & it came through.  The points were borrowed from 2021, so I’ll still have time to use them myself.  My conscience is clear that I didn’t keep someone else’s money for something that I could no longer, in good faith, provide.



Sorry, I wasn’t trying to make you feel like the bad guy. I just wanted to point out that David’s isn’t doing the great service some people think.


----------



## Sandisw

wench said:


> I didn’t realize they weren’t refunding. Although it wouldn’t have affected my decision.  I rented points out because I forgot to cancel a waitlist & it came through.  The points were borrowed from 2021, so I’ll still have time to use them myself.  My conscience is clear that I didn’t keep someone else’s money for something that I could no longer, in good faith, provide.


 
It definitely is great that you returned it.  It  is just sad that it is not your renter that gets the benefit of your kindness.  It is David's.  That renter could now end up with a worthless travel voucher, instead of the money you were paid, and returned.


----------



## fsjking

yankeesfan123 said:


> ... except he keeps the up charge because he charges more now.



... except that he increased owner payout when he raised prices. The increase was to entice more owners to rent with him. 



Sandisw said:


> My issue is that if the owner is being asked to either refund or offer points for rent again, it should be for the original renter, not a future one.  In essence, he is asking the owner to void the original contract that was made between himself, the renter, and the owner, and replace it with a new contract with a new renter.
> 
> If he were asking me to void my contract with the renter by sending back the funds, those funds should go to that renter.  If  he were asking me to modify my contract with the renter to allow a change...ie: making new reservation...then it should be for the original renter.
> 
> I realize this is what me may feel he needs to do to save his business, but as someone with a contract, I have lost all faith in his business model and think it is a shady way to do things.



Oh by no means am I defending their actions. Theres lot's here that's shady. Just this narrative that people are trying to sell that he gets to keep the money refunded by the owners just isn't accurate.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> ... except that he increased owner payout when he raised prices. The increase was to entice more owners to rent with him.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh by no means am I defending their actions. Theres lot's here that's shady. Just this narrative that people are trying to sell that he gets to keep the money refunded by the owners just isn't accurate.



But in essence he does if the renter with the travel voucher doesn't use it.  This entire system of him not keeping the money is dependent on those travel vouchers being cashed in.  The chances that they all will, given the nature of DVC availability, and the need for owners renting, IMO, isn't going to be a high percentage.  So, he will get to keep some of that money.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

fsjking said:


> Oh by no means am I defending their actions. Theres lot's here that's shady. Just this narrative that people are trying to sell that he gets to keep the money refunded by the owners just isn't accurate.



It’s a little bit true though. If the business goes under before the renter can use the credit, it’s his. If due to a number of reasons traveling again to even use the credit is not possibly for the renter it’s his again too.

The only reasons I can think of to not pass it along is to have it to use as needed immediately, to prevent from having to immediately pay out the remainder of the owners profit as well as his own cut as part of a refund, or in the hopes that it never actually gets used. None of those reasons are for anyones benefit but theirs. In the credit situation the immediate loser is the owner, renter may lose out in the future, David’s loses nothing. No shared pain. Im very frustrated that they won’t pass along the money to the renter when received. They should consider themselves lucky when the owner is even doing that, and maybe listen to their own advice to follow their conscience.


----------



## Amymouse13

Not to mention didn't he say he's not booking over the summer?  So the soonest one could use a magical voucher is next fall.


----------



## fsjking

Sandisw said:


> But in essence he does if the renter with the travel voucher doesn't use it.  This entire system of him not keeping the money is dependent on those travel vouchers being cashed in.  The chances that they all will, given the nature of DVC availability, and the need for owners renting, IMO, isn't going to be a high percentage.  So, he will get to keep some of that money.



And there will be owners who get their points back and refuse to re-rent or refund. How many reservations is he going to have to pay for out of pocket because an owner refused to work with him? Based on the sample size of the posters in this thread, I'd say quite a few. He's at least making the offer to try to rebook the renters. He's not taking the hard line "no refunds" that some here are clinging to. Most likely, he's going to lose his business here through no real fault of his own. If he files bankruptcy, he's not going to get to take any money from the business. He doesn't get to keep it. The opposite is more likely. Depending on how all this goes, and how his business is set up, he could lose more than just his business. A lot of people here have benefitted from his services, but are trashing it and acting like he's a criminal because they might not get their 30%. Then they call David's greedy.... 



DGsAtBLT said:


> It’s a little bit true though. If the business goes under before the renter can use the credit, it’s his. If due to a number of reasons traveling again to even use the credit is not possibly for the renter it’s his again too.
> 
> The only reasons I can think of to not pass it along is to have it to use as needed immediately, to prevent from having to immediately pay out the remainder of the owners profit as well as his own cut as part of a refund, or in the hopes that it never actually gets used. None of those reasons are for anyones benefit but theirs. In the credit situation the immediate loser is the owner, renter may lose out in the future, David’s loses nothing. No shared pain. Im very frustrated that they won’t pass along the money to the renter when received. They should consider themselves lucky when the owner is even doing that, and maybe listen to their own advice to follow their conscience.



No. If he goes out of business, the bankruptcy court gets it to distribute to creditors. He can't drain the accounts and say sorry folks we are out of business. It doesn't work that way. The reason you do it this way rather than direct refunds is if you have to refund all of that money, you would have to have a huge amount of cash on hand/in bank to refund all of those reservations. As owners, on here at least, have shown they are going to tell him too bad and keep the money, it's instant bankruptcy and it's up to the courts to go after the owners who don't refund. By doing it this way, you keep liquid and hope to have enough owners and renters over the next year or two to get the vouchers covered. If you really think David's loses nothing in this, how do you account for owners who have been paid not working with him and renters who do chargebacks? What about the employees he's paid to handle these reservations in the first place, but now have to handle all of these returns, chargebacks, vouchers, and rebookings? The renters aren't going bankrupt or losing everything if they lose their reservation. The owners aren't going to go bankrupt over not getting their 30%. David's might though.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> And there will be owners who get their points back and refuse to re-rent or refund. How many reservations is he going to have to pay for out of pocket because an owner refused to work with him? Based on the sample size of the posters in this thread, I'd say quite a few. He's at least making the offer to try to rebook the renters. He's not taking the hard line "no refunds" that some here are clinging to. Most likely, he's going to lose his business here through no real fault of his own. If he files bankruptcy, he's not going to get to take any money from the business. He doesn't get to keep it. The opposite is more likely. Depending on how all this goes, and how his business is set up, he could lose more than just his business. A lot of people here have benefitted from his services, but are trashing it and acting like he's a criminal because they might not get their 30%. Then they call David's greedy....
> 
> 
> 
> No. If he goes out of business, the bankruptcy court gets it to distribute to creditors. He can't drain the accounts and say sorry folks we are out of business. It doesn't work that way. The reason you do it this way rather than direct refunds is if you have to refund all of that money, you would have to have a huge amount of cash on hand/in bank to refund all of those reservations. As owners, on here at least, have shown they are going to tell him too bad and keep the money, it's instant bankruptcy and it's up to the courts to go after the owners who don't refund. By doing it this way, you keep liquid and hope to have enough owners and renters over the next year or two to get the vouchers covered. If you really think David's loses nothing in this, how do you account for owners who have been paid not working with him and renters who do chargebacks? What about the employees he's paid to handle these reservations in the first place, but now have to handle all of these returns, chargebacks, vouchers, and rebookings? The renters aren't going bankrupt or losing everything if they lose their reservation. The owners aren't going to go bankrupt over not getting their 30%. David's might though.



If owner A sends back money, and Davids gives it to renter A, then he doesn’t have to issue a travel voucher to renter A And doesn’t need a new owner.

If Owner B offers new reservation to Renter B then he doesn’t have to give any travel voucher, but does have to pay the 30%.

Owner refuses either, he keeps 30% plus his commission which covers close to 50% of travel voucher.

Using only the voucher system makes it more likely he gets extra money.  Anyway you slice it, he wants an outcome that works the best for him while creating a system that does nothing, in my eyes. but lose respect of owners or rentals.

I agree his business is on shaky ground, but his current plan definitely works in his favor to keep money when those vouchers are not used by renters,

ETA: I also believe his softening of the no refunds was because he got some legal advice that indicated his contract wasn’t enforceable.


----------



## wench

yankeesfan123 said:


> Sorry, I wasn’t trying to make you feel like the bad guy. I just wanted to point out that David’s isn’t doing the great service some people think.


No worries.  I get lazy & don’t read through all the posts, so I wasn’t caught up on everything.  You just gently looped me in to the knowledge of what’s actually happening.  No bad feelings here.


----------



## fsjking

Sandisw said:


> If owner A sends back money, and Davids gives it to renter A, then he doesn’t have to issue a travel voucher to renter A And doesn’t need a new owner.
> 
> If Owner B offers new reservation to Renter B then he doesn’t have to give any travel voucher, but does have to pay the 30%.
> 
> Owner refuses either, he keeps 30% plus his commission which covers close to 50% of travel voucher.
> 
> Using only the voucher system makes it more likely he gets extra money.  Anyway you slice it, he wants an outcome that works the best for him while creating a system that does nothing, in my eyes. but lose respect of owners or rentals.
> 
> I agree his business is on shaky ground, but his current plan definitely works in his favor to keep money when those vouchers are not used by renters,
> 
> ETA: I also believe his softening of the no refunds was because he got some legal advice that indicated his contract wasn’t enforceable.



If Owner C Refuses either option, and Renter C does a chargeback, he's out 170%. 

I don't know why you are assuming renters won't use their vouchers. Have you seen something that says they have a limited date? I see people making snarky "i bet they have to be used this year" comments, but internet crankiness is rarely rooted in reality. I'm sure there will be some that won't use them, but I'm willing to bet he's going to have more owners refusing to work with him than renters just giving up the voucher. I'm betting the amount of renters who use their voucher or do a chargeback will be over 95%. 

The problem with refunding renters is when you do that for one, you have to do it for all. If you have a renter with two reservations and one owner refunds his money and the next tells David's too bad, how do you reconcile that to the renter contractually? Once you crack no refunds on one, you set up precedent on all. 

On your ETA: I'm pretty sure that was one poster who said that and that was before the voucher plan came about unless I missed something. That tells me that he realized that he would go bankrupt if he had to refund all of the canceled reservations. Especially if this runs into June.

One thing all the owners need to realize, the only way they are getting their 30% is if he stays in business. Unless he just has large cash reserves to ride this out, the voucher deal is probably the only way that can happen.


----------



## Galun

fsjking said:


> One thing all the owners need to realize, the only way they are getting their 30% is if he stays in business. Unless he just has large cash reserves to ride this out, the voucher deal is probably the only way that can happen.



I hope more owners and renters understand this.  If he goes out of business, owners lose the 30% that has not been distributed, and renters with travel vouchers lose everything.  The winners are the owners who kept the 70% AND the cancelled points returned to the account, and renters who's credit card company issued the chargeback before David's goes under.

Again, stub hub - who was valued at $4.5 billion mere months ago - wasn't issuing cash refunds on canceled events either.  They issued a 120% toward a future credit, but not refunding cash.  People who have not run businesses do not understand the importance of working capital / cash flow.

I think his current plan is really the best one given the cards that are dealt.  On the other hand, I don't think he will survive, but I hope he does.  I've had him rent my points multiple times in the past, generally it had been a flawless experience.  Disneyland closed three times in its history, each time for a single day.  Now they are going to close for most likely 1 - 1.5 months.  This really isn't something you can plan for.  If he does go under, someone else will take his place, and they better hire good lawyers to draft the contracts.  I also think future brokers will retain more, perhaps 50/50, to account for closure risk.


----------



## Cyberc1978

With David’s issuing vouchers he is more or less clinging to the “non refund “ part of his contract as renters do not get their money back.

Only reason he may be giving the vouchers is because of bad PR and if he does not go bankrupt then he needs all the owners and renters he can get.

Some renters may do a charge back some will win others might not so the extra cash can ensure that he can continue in business.

So basically it’s just damage control x 1000


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Sandisw said:


> My issue is that if the owner is being asked to either refund or offer points for rent again, it should be for the original renter, not a future one.  In essence, he is asking the owner to void the original contract that was made between himself, the renter, and the owner, and replace it with a new contract with a new renter.
> 
> If he were asking me to void my contract with the renter by sending back the funds, those funds should go to that renter.  If  he were asking me to modify my contract with the renter to allow a change...ie: making new reservation...then it should be for the original renter.
> 
> I realize this is what me may feel he needs to do to save his business, but as someone with a contract, I have lost all faith in his business model and think it is a shady way to do things.


Sandi, the way I see it is the original contract I had/have with David’s is completed at check in day. As you know, I received all 100% of funds for March rental, so in my mind at least, those points belong to the original renter, or David’s (if he refunds the renter) but I would expect a new contract of sorts when I re rent. I have no idea how it would be worded considering No funds are being withheld until check in day!
As far as the April reservation, I have been told I will receive the final 30% when I make a new reservation, but I have real doubts about doing that. If he doesn’t pay up, then I could just cancel it which would mess up yet another persons vacation, and I would be stuck with points in holding I guess.


----------



## Amymouse13

What I can't figure out with his plan is... So it seems his argument for vouchers is that many owners points may expire by the time a renter might be able to rebook with original owner.  So if the supply of rentable points drops, is only option is to rob Peter to pay Paul.  If he doesn't have enough points to cover the vouchers then what?  He just keeps telling renters he is unable at this time to secure a reservation but he will let them know when he can despite no possible way to magically make points appear as he has to pay a new owner from his available funds.  This may presume owners with expiring points are willing to refund and lose their points but I'm not sure anyone would actually do that... That is the owner take a hypothetical loss of 5k to make David's whole.


----------



## lovethesun12

While this contract is "non-refundable", I really don't think the owner can walk away, keep 70% of the funds and go have an awesome vacation with 100% of the points (or get paid again for those points) and think there will be no legal ramifications with that decision. The terms of the contract were unfulfilled (plus that would be double dipping which is illegal).

I think David's is offering the owner the absolute most fair option and they shouldn't really consider the renter (David's is the middle man after all), just the fact they have an unfulfilled contract. The renter cannot check in so the owner does not get paid the extra 30%. If the owner still wants 100% of the funds that option is still there they will simply have to wait for that to happen. On the other hand, they can also return what was paid and wash their hands clean.

I also think he is offering the renter a very fair option. The renter entered a non-refundable contract. David's is given them an option so they do not lose everything. Like the owner, they should also be very flexible because if they are not, well they entered into a non-refundable contract and could get nothing. As for those saying there is no availability, again there is some still there. I checked for a week in July, August, Christmas and all of them have options. I think it is in the best interest of the owner to be as flexible as possible on this. 

Now both the owner and renter can refuse what was offered and that is their choice. But that could open up a can of worms for both of them in my opinion (and also be more of a headache for David's of course).


----------



## Cyberc1978

Amymouse13 said:


> What I can't figure out with his plan is... So it seems his argument for vouchers is that many owners points may expire by the time a renter might be able to rebook with original owner.  So if the supply of rentable points drops, is only option is to rob Peter to pay Paul.  If he doesn't have enough points to cover the vouchers then what?  He just keeps telling renters he is unable at this time to secure a reservation but he will let them know when he can despite no possible way to magically make points appear as he has to pay a new owner from his available funds.  This may presume owners with expiring points are willing to refund and lose their points but I'm not sure anyone would actually do that... That is the owner take a hypothetical loss of 5k to make David's whole.



As mentioned I think the only reason why he is providing the vouchers is to avoid bad PR. The contract after all did state they were non-refundable. That will ensure that his company can continue operating if he survives. I know that one of his employees did write that the contract was void - not why it was so. When everything settles down Davids will increase the price for renters (not owners) that will ensure that en renter with a vouchers needs to pay a little more on top for the same vacation.
This all assumes  that he is able to get an owners to rent their points.

Some renters may be able to do a charge back and others wont. If renters have like 12 months to use the vouchers then davids in most cases will be able to pocket the cash as I dont think most renters will be able to get anything for their vouchers due to no availability. 

Had I been renting through Davids I would not have refunded or re-rented my points unless I got my 30% as originally agreed. If Davids didn't pay I would get to keep both points and 70%

If my points were to expire 1st of June then I would offer to re-rent them before they expire if that was not an option "bad-luck-davids"

Davids is not gonna send you a thank you card for refunding and hoping to re-rent points later on, so why should you re-fund the 70%.

Davids is "in-it-to-win-it" or survive-it


----------



## Bearval

A rental company such as David's if it were to go bankrupt wouldn't be out much since it is most likely formed as a corporation or LLC and would only lose the company assets and goodwill. Since they do not own nor create the product they are selling he can easily reopen under a new business but will have to rebuild his customer base from scratch since he would not want the new business associated with the old that went under.  Bottom line here is that financially David would lose the least ( except for business goodwill which will impact his future business) and the owners and renters will lose the most.


----------



## Amymouse13

lovethesun12 said:


> While this contract is "non-refundable", I really don't think the owner can walk away, keep 70% of the funds and go have an awesome vacation with 100% of the points (or get paid again for those points) and think there will be no legal ramifications with that decision. The terms of the contract were unfulfilled (plus that would be double dipping which is illegal).
> 
> I think David's is offering the owner the absolute most fair option and they shouldn't really consider the renter (David's is the middle man after all), just the fact they have an unfulfilled contract. The renter cannot check in so the owner does not get paid the extra 30%. If the owner still wants 100% of the funds that option is still there they will simply have to wait for that to happen. On the other hand, they can also return what was paid and wash their hands clean.
> 
> I also think he is offering the renter a very fair option. The renter entered a non-refundable contract. David's is given them an option so they do not lose everything. Like the owner, they should also be very flexible because if they are not, well they entered into a non-refundable contract and could get nothing. As for those saying there is no availability, again there is some still there. I checked for a week in July, August, Christmas and all of them have options. I think it is in the best interest of the owner to be as flexible as possible on this.
> 
> Now both the owner and renter can refuse what was offered and that is their choice. But that could open up a can of worms for both of them in my opinion (and also be more of a headache for David's of course).
> [/QUOTE



The nonrefundable is probably why he's telling owners not to cancel reservations.  As my reservations aren't until April 18 and 22 and were cancelled as of at least April 1 would appear my contract is voided by David's.  He knows if they are cancelled by owners the contract is void.  My dispute claim with credit card is my reservation was cancelled already without a refund.  Disney didn't cancel weeks out.  I'm not going after owner either as my contract isn't with them.  The no refunds presumes I just didn't go when my reservation was not that the reservation no longer exists.  Simple goods not received.  Fingers crossed that is lol... I screen shot no reservations as of April 1 from my Disney app.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Governor DeSantis is telling owners to cancel all rentals starting March 29 for at least a month.


----------



## lovethesun12

Amymouse13 said:


> The nonrefundable is probably why he's telling owners not to cancel reservations.  As my reservations aren't until April 18 and 22 and were cancelled as of at least April 1 would appear my contract is voided by David's.  He knows if they are cancelled by owners the contract is void.  My dispute claim with credit card is my reservation was cancelled already without a refund.  Disney didn't cancel weeks out.  I'm not going after owner either as my contract isn't with them.  The no refunds presumes I just didn't go when my reservation was not that the reservation no longer exists.  Simple goods not received.  Fingers crossed that is lol... I screen shot no reservations as of April 1 from my Disney app.


Every situation is different and I think you would have a better case than most for receiving a full refund.


----------



## Krandor

Amymouse13 said:


> What I can't figure out with his plan is... So it seems his argument for vouchers is that many owners points may expire by the time a renter might be able to rebook with original owner.  So if the supply of rentable points drops, is only option is to rob Peter to pay Paul.  If he doesn't have enough points to cover the vouchers then what?  He just keeps telling renters he is unable at this time to secure a reservation but he will let them know when he can despite no possible way to magically make points appear as he has to pay a new owner from his available funds.  This may presume owners with expiring points are willing to refund and lose their points but I'm not sure anyone would actually do that... That is the owner take a hypothetical loss of 5k to make David's whole.



I would assume that after things restart he plans to put a certain amount of his commissions aside (and likely raise rates) to cover the vouchers he is gooing to have to pay for.  It's building a house of cards and making covering the people who lost reservations today on future revenue.  I've seen a few ccompanies try this before and I've never seen it work well because for one the people waiting on the future revenue to get made whole are not likely to be saying good things about the company which then hurts that future revenue.  

I said earlier, I think the end result is going to be both owners and renters getting screwed.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> If Owner C Refuses either option, and Renter C does a chargeback, he's out 170%.
> 
> I don't know why you are assuming renters won't use their vouchers. Have you seen something that says they have a limited date? I see people making snarky "i bet they have to be used this year" comments, but internet crankiness is rarely rooted in reality. I'm sure there will be some that won't use them, but I'm willing to bet he's going to have more owners refusing to work with him than renters just giving up the voucher. I'm betting the amount of renters who use their voucher or do a chargeback will be over 95%.
> 
> The problem with refunding renters is when you do that for one, you have to do it for all. If you have a renter with two reservations and one owner refunds his money and the next tells David's too bad, how do you reconcile that to the renter contractually? Once you crack no refunds on one, you set up precedent on all.
> 
> On your ETA: I'm pretty sure that was one poster who said that and that was before the voucher plan came about unless I missed something. That tells me that he realized that he would go bankrupt if he had to refund all of the canceled reservations. Especially if this runs into June.
> 
> One thing all the owners need to realize, the only way they are getting their 30% is if he stays in business. Unless he just has large cash reserves to ride this out, the voucher deal is probably the only way that can happen.



Assume a June 1st open date, the availability of rooms is slim. Any new renter wanting to rebook is going to struggle to use it before January.

That is a long time to wait to use something if there is no guarantee there will be owners to handle all those vouchers as well as availability.

You are right, he hasn’t put a time limit, but do you really think it will be open ended.

We can go round and round but any money he offers back..limits his risk with charge backs.
IMO it would also help his PR more than the road he is taking. 

That Renter C whose owner didn’t do anything might take the 50% from the held 30% and commission and cut their losses.

But yes, I believe many feel the voucher will be useless and why they are doing charge backs because they know if they accept it and a year from now still can’t secure a reservation when they want, they’ve lost their chance.


----------



## CraigInPA

fsjking said:


> If Owner C Refuses either option, and Renter C does a chargeback, he's out 170%.



That is not accurate. David's pays the owner 70% of the amount that he rents the points for. If the rental price of the points is $14.50, he is out $10.15. $10.15 is 53% of the $19 total price paid by the renter. Thus, he is out 153%, not 170%. Note, too, that "Option C" may very well be the result of the owner's points expiring before a booking could be made due to availability, or the decision of David's to not book rentals during this summer when the owner's points may still be valid.

The math and procedure question I'd like to hear answered by David's is what he intends to charge the renters who use a voucher, and what he will pay the owners, given his recent price hikes? David's could create additional margin for themselves by paying owners $13.50 or $14.50 (the original contracted price, as opposed to the new price of $14.50 or $15.50) and charging renters the new price of $19 or $20 for the replacement rental.


----------



## toniosmom

Bing Showei said:


> While this was a decent and generous thing to do, I would caution other owners to think long and hard about going this route as there are serious implications.
> 
> On the negative side, by canceling whatever reservation an owner has (as opposed to waiting for Disney to do so), the owner will be in violation of the terms of the contract between the owner and David’s and expose themselves to liabilities that would require at least the return of all monies.
> 
> On a potentially positive side, by canceling whatever reservation an owner has in place, a renter would then have a case to demand a refund as the owner failed to hold up their side of the agreement. This is likely the reason why* David’s has been curiously explicit and repeatedly insistent that the owners must NOT cancel their reservation. In all likelihood, that would be grounds for a renter refund *(less David's commission, of course).
> 
> All that said, if owners started doing this, I suspect that will only expedite David's eventual demise. And despite an owner opening a new avenue for their renter to become whole, that avenue will shut down instantly with David's bankruptcy declaration, and as an owner, you would still owe that money back to David's.
> 
> The reality at this point is that David’s is going down the course of insolvency, and no one should have any faith that when it comes time to either collect the remaining 30% of their booking, or to cash in on their travel credit that David's will be around to honor either. As we all sit around trying to figure out the right thing to do, David’s realizes this and every decision they are making is to insulate themselves from this inevitability.



That's exactly why I did NOT cancel the reservation myself.  I waited until DISNEY cancelled it and returned my points to me.


----------



## tallguy001

fsjking said:


> The renters aren't going bankrupt or losing everything if they lose their reservation. The owners aren't going to go bankrupt over not getting their 30%. David's might though.



“Going bankrupt” is the bar here? What about the renters who saved for 5 years to take a once in a lifetime trip? They are now supposed to be out a trip AND their money? The owner should just suck up the 30% so David can continue? Let’s face it - David brought some of this on himself with the poor contracts. It doesn’t seem like any other travel agencies are in this situation.


----------



## vnovabri

toniosmom said:


> That's exactly why I did NOT cancel the reservation myself.  I waited until DISNEY cancelled it and returned my points to me.



When did Disney cancel your reservation. I have a reservation April 25-29 that has not been canceled yet. I am waiting for that to trigger before refunding any money to Davids.


----------



## Cyberc1978

toniosmom said:


> That's exactly why I did NOT cancel the reservation myself.  I waited until DISNEY cancelled it and returned my points to me.


Let’s say that you actually did cancel the reservation yourself how could anyone ever proof that you did it and not Disney?


----------



## tallguy001

They are still deleting questions off their page.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

tallguy001 said:


> View attachment 485032
> They are still deleting questions off their page.



Yup. An owner asked very politely if it was okay to contact their renter to reschedule them and then pass along the new reservation number and info to Davids, I’m pretty sure that’s the most recent deleted post.


----------



## Dracula

Cyberc1978 said:


> Let’s say that you actually did cancel the reservation yourself how could anyone ever proof that you did it and not Disney?


Why would an owner cancel the reservation and have the points go into holding? The best thing to do is wait for Disney to cancel, so points are not in holding and may even be unborrowed. Plus remain in compliance with David's contract, so as to avoid refunding the 70% downpayment.


----------



## yankeesfan123

vnovabri said:


> When did Disney cancel your reservation. I have a reservation April 25-29 that has not been canceled yet. I am waiting for that to trigger before refunding any money to Davids.



i assume cancellations from Disney will be coming in a day or two. They aren’t an exception to the governor’s order.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

badeacon said:


> It must depend on who you correspond with at David's. I have been repeatedly been told that would not receive the remaining 30% until checkin of the re-rent. I have little faith would receive that 30%.


I am really going to hold out for full payment before rebooking, the other option, as someone on here suggested pages back, was to offer to re rent only 70% of the points as that is what has been paid for.


----------



## McCrae

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I am really going to hold out for full payment before rebooking, the other option, as someone on here suggested pages back, was to offer to re rent only 70% of the points as that is what has been paid for.


I am thinking about saying to David’s keep the 30%, and walking away. Would like a clean break.


----------



## Brian Noble

McCrae said:


> I am thinking about saying to David’s keep the 30%, and walking away. Would like a clean break.


This is what I would do. I would also try to help the renter on the side however I could given the life left in those points and my own financial wherewithal. The one thing that the pandemic is helping me think carefully about is that my actions are not just about me and my family, but that I'm tightly bound with everyone around me. This is another example of that, and I would be willing to share some of the renter's pain.

I'm less willing to share a company's pain, though.


----------



## Nennie

They are deleting posts like crazy, and they don't want owners contacting renters to rebook.  They are digging their own grave at this point.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Why would an owner cancel the reservation and have the points go into holding? The best thing to do is wait for Disney to cancel, so points are not in holding and may even be unborrowed. Plus remain in compliance with David's contract, so as to avoid refunding the 70% downpayment.



No points are going into holding, even those canceled by the owners right now as they are closed until further notice...they are waiving it for all.


----------



## cutigerlady

Realize that David’s could go after the owner using the same logic that renters are going after him. He paid you 70% for points for a 
reservation that wasn’t delivered. The owner will get the points back (whether they can be used or not is a different issue). If David’s goes under, the bankruptcy will be seeking to get that $ back from you.  I don’t they they will care if you tried to work with the renter to reschedule or refunded them directly. If I was an owner, I would return the money and wash my hands of the entire situation. If you can’t refund the $, they you really are at the mercy of working with David’s until they go out of business. 

If you need to rent out points, I would only do it in a direct owner/renter agreement that spells out exactly what happens if the reservation can’t be fulfilled.


----------



## toniosmom

vnovabri said:


> When did Disney cancel your reservation. I have a reservation April 25-29 that has not been canceled yet. I am waiting for that to trigger before refunding any money to Davids.


The check-in date was April 2nd and Disney cancelled it on March 31st late in the day.  They said they are going to be cancelling reservations week-by-week, so it may be a while before yours is cancelled.


----------



## toniosmom

Cyberc1978 said:


> Let’s say that you actually did cancel the reservation yourself how could anyone ever proof that you did it and not Disney?


I have no idea.  Frankly, I don't think it really matters who cancelled it.  The resort is closed, period.


----------



## meryll83

The only way I’ll be able to find out if my reservation has been cancelled is if/when David’s tells me. VGC at Disneyland reservations can’t be viewed online, not by me as the renter at least...


----------



## toniosmom

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I am really going to hold out for full payment before rebooking, the other option, as someone on here suggested pages back, was to offer to re rent only 70% of the points as that is what has been paid for.


Perhaps I'm missing something here.  Has anyone been told that you would no longer get the remaining 30% upon check-in on a new reservation?  Or is this an assumption?  

I rented out my points and was paid 70%.  When those points are re-rented, I only expect the remaining 30% at time of the new check-in date.  Its the same points that are being rented.  I already have the 70%.  That makes me whole. My points are in use and I didn't lose anything.  So, why would you hold out for 100% payment before re-renting the SAME points?  Then there is no protection for the renter if the owner decides to be a jerk (not that you are) and cancel their reservation.  The 30% is supposed to be their assurance that you will keep the reservation available for check-in.  

Of course, the scenario would be different if the points are no longer usable.....the owner should not take on that loss.  But, I don't think that's the situation you are referring to in your comment.


----------



## Cyberc1978

toniosmom said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something here.  Has anyone been told that you would no longer get the remaining 30% upon check-in on a new reservation?  Or is this an assumption?
> 
> I rented out my points and was paid 70%.  When those points are re-rented, I only expect the remaining 30% at time of the new check-in date.  Its the same points that are being rented.  I already have the 70%.  That makes me whole. My points are in use and I didn't lose anything.  So, why would you hold out for 100% payment before re-renting the SAME points?  Then there is no protection for the renter if the owner decides to be a jerk (not that you are) and cancel their reservation.  The 30% is supposed to be their assurance that you will keep the reservation available for check-in.
> 
> Of course, the scenario would be different if the points are no longer usable.....the owner should not take on that loss.  But, I don't think that's the situation you are referring to in your comment.



If you as an owner is promised 30% at checkin and let say checkin is 4/5. Of course that is not gonna happen as the resort is closed. You are however still contracted to get the 30% at 4/5. If you re-rent IMO David’s should honor the contract and pay you the 30% on the 4/5 and not wait until the new checkin date which could be 10 months from now.

IMO either David’s pay now(original checkin date) or he loses the 70%.

Owners are not renting to help save companies but they are renting to help themselves.


----------



## fsjking

Amymouse13 said:


> What I can't figure out with his plan is... So it seems his argument for vouchers is that many owners points may expire by the time a renter might be able to rebook with original owner.  So if the supply of rentable points drops, is only option is to rob Peter to pay Paul.  If he doesn't have enough points to cover the vouchers then what?  He just keeps telling renters he is unable at this time to secure a reservation but he will let them know when he can despite no possible way to magically make points appear as he has to pay a new owner from his available funds.  This may presume owners with expiring points are willing to refund and lose their points but I'm not sure anyone would actually do that... That is the owner take a hypothetical loss of 5k to make David's whole.



He'll have to use his commission to make up for the shortfall. If no one will rent him points he's going to go into bankruptcy anyway, so the same as if he just goes out of business now. 



CraigInPA said:


> That is not accurate. David's pays the owner 70% of the amount that he rents the points for. If the rental price of the points is $14.50, he is out $10.15. $10.15 is 53% of the $19 total price paid by the renter. Thus, he is out 153%, not 170%. Note, too, that "Option C" may very well be the result of the owner's points expiring before a booking could be made due to availability, or the decision of David's to not book rentals during this summer when the owner's points may still be valid.
> 
> The math and procedure question I'd like to hear answered by David's is what he intends to charge the renters who use a voucher, and what he will pay the owners, given his recent price hikes? David's could create additional margin for themselves by paying owners $13.50 or $14.50 (the original contracted price, as opposed to the new price of $14.50 or $15.50) and charging renters the new price of $19 or $20 for the replacement rental.



You are correct on the 153%/170%. Still 153% is a pretty significant loss. It doesn't really matter why an owner chooses to keep the money in that scenario. David's still has to eat the loss.

On which rate, they will be all new contracts. Owners who booked prior to February would actually get paid more for their points as they'd be under the new price structure. He could change the pricing structure again, but that's the same as those saying the vouchers expire in January. That's looking to make things worse without any actual proof. 



tallguy001 said:


> “Going bankrupt” is the bar here? What about the renters who saved for 5 years to take a once in a lifetime trip? They are now supposed to be out a trip AND their money? The owner should just suck up the 30% so David can continue? Let’s face it - David brought some of this on himself with the poor contracts. It doesn’t seem like any other travel agencies are in this situation.



They will get another trip. That's the idea behind the voucher. They aren't out anything but time. 
The owner doesn't have to suck anything up. They can return the 70% and wash their hands of the entire deal. 
There are plenty of agencies in this same spot. As has been quoted in this thread, Stubhub isn't doing refunds either.
And bankruptcy is a much bigger deal than losing a vacation or having to pay the maintenance fees that you contracted to do when you bought your timeshare. I get people are pissed about the situation, but get some perspective here. 



yankeesfan123 said:


> i assume cancellations from Disney will be coming in a day or two. They aren’t an exception to the governor’s order.



Cancellations are on a rolling basis within 7 days of the check in date. They covered that in the closed until further notice PR. The governors order doesn't change that. We know they'll be cancelled, but the official cancellations will be on that schedule. I'm sure a lot of that is to make it more manageable on the call centers. 



McCrae said:


> I am thinking about saying to David’s keep the 30%, and walking away. Would like a clean break.



Just know that if it goes into bankruptcy, theres nothing that says that the courts can't come after the 70%. You may want to think they won't or can't, but they can. They only way you get a clean break is to send the 70% back. 



toniosmom said:


> I have no idea.  Frankly, I don't think it really matters who cancelled it.  The resort is closed, period.



Contractually it matters. The contract doesn't allow the owner to cancel the reservation under any circumstances. An owner cancelling the reservation is one of the things that actually spells out that a renter can get a refund. If DVC cancels it, it gets us into this legal quandary we've been beating on. That may not apply in your case, but it matters to others considering cancelling before DVC does it.


----------



## toniosmom

Cyberc1978 said:


> If you as an owner is promised 30% at checkin and let say checkin is 4/5. Of course that is not gonna happen as the resort is closed. You are however still contracted to get the 30% at 4/5. If you re-rent IMO David’s should honor the contract and pay you the 30% on the 4/5 and not wait until the new checkin date which could be 10 months from now.
> 
> IMO either David’s pay now(original checkin date) or he loses the 70%.
> 
> Owners are not renting to help save companies but they are renting to help themselves.



I guess we all need to do what is best for our own circumstances.  For me, I can wait for the new check-in date for the 30%.  I thankfully still have my job.  If I was no longer employed, I may feel differently.  I reached out to my renter, who was very nervous about losing money and also wanted to rebook.  I was glad to be able to reassure them that they don't have to wait for David's in order to get it done.  We are all very stressed out about so many important things.  Vacation dates are minor, but now its one less thing my renter has to worry about.  In a time where we have so little control, its something I was able to DO for someone to make their life a little easier.


----------



## Galun

Cyberc1978 said:


> If you as an owner is promised 30% at checkin and let say checkin is 4/5. Of course that is not gonna happen as the resort is closed. You are however still contracted to get the 30% at 4/5. If you re-rent IMO David’s should honor the contract and pay you the 30% on the 4/5 and not wait until the new checkin date which could be 10 months from now.
> 
> IMO either David’s pay now(original checkin date) or he loses the 70%.
> 
> Owners are not renting to help save companies but they are renting to help themselves.



This is like a supplier demanding strict payment terms during this unprecedented situation from a distributor, to the point of possibly pushing the distributor out of business.

As an owner, I definitely want to see them survive. I used them and gave them their commission so I didn't have to deal with finding renters to being with.  I think a vibrant rental market enabled by brokers like David's help the resale value for all owners.


----------



## toniosmom

Galun said:


> This is like a supplier demanding strict payment terms during this unprecedented situation from a distributor, to the point of possibly pushing the distributor out of business.
> 
> As an owner, I definitely want to see them survive. I used them and gave them their commission so I didn't have to deal with finding renters to being with.  I think a vibrant rental market enabled by brokers like David's help the resale value for all owners.



YES!!!  That's exactly what I'm talking about.  If you can, be patient.  With my current life situation, I have too many points to use each year, so I need to rent them.  I rely on a service like David's -- I don't want to deal with the legalities of rental contracts, etc.  I don't want them to go out of business and neither should anyone else.  There are many small business owners in the same or similar predicament -- we all know someone struggling to keep their once-thriving business afloat during this crisis.  Many need a break right now and if you're in a position to give one, please do.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> He'll have to use his commission to make up for the shortfall. If no one will rent him points he's going to go into bankruptcy anyway, so the same as if he just goes out of business now.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct on the 153%/170%. Still 153% is a pretty significant loss. It doesn't really matter why an owner chooses to keep the money in that scenario. David's still has to eat the loss.
> 
> On which rate, they will be all new contracts. Owners who booked prior to February would actually get paid more for their points as they'd be under the new price structure. He could change the pricing structure again, but that's the same as those saying the vouchers expire in January. That's looking to make things worse without any actual proof.
> 
> 
> 
> They will get another trip. That's the idea behind the voucher. They aren't out anything but time.
> The owner doesn't have to suck anything up. They can return the 70% and wash their hands of the entire deal.
> There are plenty of agencies in this same spot. As has been quoted in this thread, Stubhub isn't doing refunds either.
> And bankruptcy is a much bigger deal than losing a vacation or having to pay the maintenance fees that you contracted to do when you bought your timeshare. I get people are pissed about the situation, but get some perspective here.
> 
> 
> 
> Cancellations are on a rolling basis within 7 days of the check in date. They covered that in the closed until further notice PR. The governors order doesn't change that. We know they'll be cancelled, but the official cancellations will be on that schedule. I'm sure a lot of that is to make it more manageable on the call centers.
> 
> 
> 
> Just know that if it goes into bankruptcy, theres nothing that says that the courts can't come after the 70%. You may want to think they won't or can't, but they can. They only way you get a clean break is to send the 70% back.
> 
> 
> 
> Contractually it matters. The contract doesn't allow the owner to cancel the reservation under any circumstances. An owner cancelling the reservation is one of the things that actually spells out that a renter can get a refund. If DVC cancels it, it gets us into this legal quandary we've been beating on. That may not apply in your case, but it matters to others considering cancelling before DVC does it.



Then, the Renter would get money and not voucher, correct?

While i do not like what he is doing, my comments are not meant to seem like I want him to go under, but rather if the owner is willing to refund or reschedule, then Davids should continue to be the broker and allow the original parties to settle this situation

He doesn’t want owners contacting renters to reschedule...that is what is being reported.

If he had said to owners, if you can reschedule please reach out to the renters, then he’d be dealing with a lot less headache, and actually, be working towards keeping owners and renters happy,


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> He'll have to use his commission to make up for the shortfall. If no one will rent him points he's going to go into bankruptcy anyway, so the same as if he just goes out of business now.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct on the 153%/170%. Still 153% is a pretty significant loss. It doesn't really matter why an owner chooses to keep the money in that scenario. David's still has to eat the loss.
> 
> On which rate, they will be all new contracts. Owners who booked prior to February would actually get paid more for their points as they'd be under the new price structure. He could change the pricing structure again, but that's the same as those saying the vouchers expire in January. That's looking to make things worse without any actual proof.
> 
> 
> 
> They will get another trip. That's the idea behind the voucher. They aren't out anything but time.
> The owner doesn't have to suck anything up. They can return the 70% and wash their hands of the entire deal.
> There are plenty of agencies in this same spot. As has been quoted in this thread, Stubhub isn't doing refunds either.
> And bankruptcy is a much bigger deal than losing a vacation or having to pay the maintenance fees that you contracted to do when you bought your timeshare. I get people are pissed about the situation, but get some perspective here.
> 
> 
> 
> Cancellations are on a rolling basis within 7 days of the check in date. They covered that in the closed until further notice PR. The governors order doesn't change that. We know they'll be cancelled, but the official cancellations will be on that schedule. I'm sure a lot of that is to make it more manageable on the call centers.
> 
> 
> 
> Just know that if it goes into bankruptcy, theres nothing that says that the courts can't come after the 70%. You may want to think they won't or can't, but they can. They only way you get a clean break is to send the 70% back.
> 
> 
> 
> Contractually it matters. The contract doesn't allow the owner to cancel the reservation under any circumstances. An owner cancelling the reservation is one of the things that actually spells out that a renter can get a refund. If DVC cancels it, it gets us into this legal quandary we've been beating on. That may not apply in your case, but it matters to others considering cancelling before DVC does it.


Bankruptcy court can only go after David‘s debtors. I am not and will not be registered as a debtor to him. I owe him nothing.


----------



## Krandor

McCrae said:


> Bankruptcy court can only go after David‘s debtors. I am not and will not be registered as a debtor to him. I owe him nothing.



Correct and even if the reading of the contract that the owners have to pay back the 70% is right (I don't think it is), the only way David's can make then return the money is to sue the owner and being a canadian compay that would be expensive and would not be a good way to get owners to work with you in the future.


----------



## tallguy001

I‘d expect/hope owners and renters would look out for their best interests and not the interests of an increasingly shady company. Some may be willing to take the hit, some may not. Each individual situation is different.


----------



## LAX

Galun said:


> This is like a supplier demanding strict payment terms during this unprecedented situation from a distributor, to the point of possibly pushing the distributor out of business.
> 
> As an owner, I definitely want to see them survive. I used them and gave them their commission so I didn't have to deal with finding renters to being with.  I think a vibrant rental market enabled by brokers like David's help the resale value for all owners.



As an owner myself, I certainly want a vibrant rental market for the occasional time that I end up not using the points myself. However, a vibrant rental market doesn't have to include brokers like David's. I realize this may sound harsh, but David's has really screwed this one up. While he may not have other choices, screwing the owners is definitely not the way to make things right. I will look for another broker in the future if I end up needing to rent my points.

LAX


----------



## Maddiesmum03

toniosmom said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something here.  Has anyone been told that you would no longer get the remaining 30% upon check-in on a new reservation?  Or is this an assumption?
> 
> I rented out my points and was paid 70%.  When those points are re-rented, I only expect the remaining 30% at time of the new check-in date.  Its the same points that are being rented.  I already have the 70%.  That makes me whole. My points are in use and I didn't lose anything.  So, why would you hold out for 100% payment before re-renting the SAME points?  Then there is no protection for the renter if the owner decides to be a jerk (not that you are) and cancel their reservation.  The 30% is supposed to be their assurance that you will keep the reservation available for check-in.
> 
> Of course, the scenario would be different if the points are no longer usable.....the owner should not take on that loss.  But, I don't think that's the situation you are referring to in your comment.


No, I have been told I will get the 30% for the April reservation once I make a reservation (at least that is how I understand the email) but if David’s are already saying I will not get the money at the original check in date as per our contract, then how can I have any faith that they will stay true to their word this time? if they move the goal posts and say I will get my money when the new check in date comes around, I will have waited around 22 months for that money. That is assuming David’s will be around in 11 months or so to complete the new contract. You are right, no new renter will have any faith in the reservation if I have had full payment, which is why I would rather the new rental could just be a rescheduled vacation for the original renter, made with goodwill that they get what they originally paid for.
I know these are strange circumstances and I really do feel for the renters who seem to be losing out which is why I am happy to reschedule for them with the points they rented (not that David’s seems set on this course of action) but quite honestly, I could really do with those dollars I was counting on right now, not next year or never which is why I am holding out for payment before making any new reservations. It is the only bargaining chip I have.


----------



## Stitch_Is_King

CarolMN said:


> What are the other brokers doing?  Haven't seen posts about any other brokers.



We rented from another broker and right now are stuck in limbo. The broker initally offered to allow us to rebook and sent us dates that were available. We selected our dates, which were in October, only to hear back from the broker that there was a mistake and the owner's points had to be used by September 30th. None of the other dates they offered are dates we can travel so the broker said our only option was to see if the owner could rent the points to another customer, if that was successful, we would be refunded. Otherwise it looks like we are out the money.


----------



## GoingSince1990

Stitch_Is_King said:


> We rented from another broker and right now are stuck in limbo. The broker initally offered to allow us to rebook and sent us dates that were available. We selected our dates, which were in October, only to hear back from the broker that there was a mistake and the owner's points had to be used by September 30th. None of the other dates they offered are dates we can travel so the broker said our only option was to see if the owner could rent the points to another customer, if that was successful, we would be refunded. Otherwise it looks like we are out the money.


Did you pay by credit card and was the reservation canceled because of the resort being closed? If so, I would dispute the charge.


----------



## Stitch_Is_King

GoingSince1990 said:


> Did you pay by credit card and was the reservation canceled because of the resort being closed? If so, I would dispute the charge.



We did pay by credit card. The reason we could not go was because the resort was closed. The broker said we needed to give permission for them to cancel the reservation so they could work on attempting to rent the points to another customer. My guess is that might protect them if we tried to dispute the charge.


----------



## LAX

Stitch_Is_King said:


> We rented from another broker and right now are stuck in limbo. The broker initally offered to allow us to rebook and sent us dates that were available. We selected our dates, which were in October, only to hear back from the broker that there was a mistake and the owner's points had to be used by September 30th. None of the other dates they offered are dates we can travel so the broker said our only option was to see if the owner could rent the points to another customer, if that was successful, we would be refunded. Otherwise it looks like we are out the money.



Curious if your contract has any wording that discusses what happens if the resort is closed due to "no one's fault." My guess is other brokers may face a similar problem as David's is now. However, the volume at other brokers may be more manageable, though.

LAX


----------



## ziravan

toniosmom said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something here.  Has anyone been told that you would no longer get the remaining 30% upon check-in on a new reservation?  Or is this an assumption?
> 
> I rented out my points and was paid 70%.  When those points are re-rented, I only expect the remaining 30% at time of the new check-in date.  Its the same points that are being rented.  I already have the 70%.  That makes me whole. My points are in use and I didn't lose anything.  So, why would you hold out for 100% payment before re-renting the SAME points?  Then there is no protection for the renter if the owner decides to be a jerk (not that you are) and cancel their reservation.  The 30% is supposed to be their assurance that you will keep the reservation available for check-in.
> 
> Of course, the scenario would be different if the points are no longer usable.....the owner should not take on that loss.  But, I don't think that's the situation you are referring to in your comment.


If you re-rent and, as is likely, David’s goes under, then you have to decide whether to cancel the reservation because you won’t ever get the 30%, or eat the 30% because that’s not the renter’s fault either.

Obviously, I don’t think most owners would leave a new renter high and dry. But rather than eat that 30% later, I’d make better decisions now.

If I have a current reservation, maybe I feel indebted to the current renter. I’m dang sure not going to create that problem with a new renter eyes wide open.

If I didn’t get paid the remaining 30% up front, I wouldn’t rebook.


----------



## fsjking

Sandisw said:


> Then, the Renter would get money and not voucher, correct?
> 
> While i do not like what he is doing, my comments are not meant to seem like I want him to go under, but rather if the owner is willing to refund or reschedule, then Davids should continue to be the broker and allow the original parties to settle this situation
> 
> He doesn’t want owners contacting renters to reschedule...that is what is being reported.
> 
> If he had said to owners, if you can reschedule please reach out to the renters, then he’d be dealing with a lot less headache, and actually, be working towards keeping owners and renters happy,



I just think that his best bet is to be consistent across the board if he's going to have any hope of keeping everyone from asking for refunds and the company going bankrupt. Allowing each owner/renter combo to negotiate separately is asking for trouble. Too hard to keep track of that way. The voucher system, in theory will be consistent.There are going to be plenty of owners taking advantage of this situation. Probably some renters that try to get a travel credit and a chargeback too. 



McCrae said:


> Bankruptcy court can only go after David‘s debtors. I am not and will not be registered as a debtor to him. I owe him nothing.



You have a contract with him. I get that you think you fulfilled that contract, but if there are hundreds or thousands of contracts for millions of dollars outstanding and hundreds or thousands of  chargebacks and this goes into bankruptcy, with those numbers, lawyers will go after the money. If the judge says you got your points back and you need to return the 70%, you'll have to pay. They won't argue with you, they'll just send a collection agency after you and probably put a lien on your timeshare when you try to say you don't have to pay. If you think a judge will take your side. Good luck with that.


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> I just think that his best bet is to be consistent across the board if he's going to have any hope of keeping everyone from asking for refunds and the company going bankrupt. Allowing each owner/renter combo to negotiate separately is asking for trouble. Too hard to keep track of that way. The voucher system, in theory will be consistent.There are going to be plenty of owners taking advantage of this situation. Probably some renters that try to get a travel credit and a chargeback too.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a contract with him. I get that you think you fulfilled that contract, but if there are hundreds or thousands of contracts for millions of dollars outstanding and hundreds or thousands of  chargebacks and this goes into bankruptcy, with those numbers, lawyers will go after the money. If the judge says you got your points back and you need to return the 70%, you'll have to pay. They won't argue with you, they'll just send a collection agency after you and probably put a lien on your timeshare when you try to say you don't have to pay. If you think a judge will take your side. Good luck with that.



Maybe I’m not saying it right,  The owner has a three way contract with Davids and the renter,  Davids has decided, on his own, to void the terms of *that *contract, with both people, by telling the renter they get a voucher for points from a different owner, and telling the owner to return money or rent your points to a different renter,

Unilaterally  deciding to simply void contracts and changing the terms IS a problem, regardless of his reasons or motives. 

As I said,  I have a renter in August coming and we will see by then what happens.  I won’t leave the renter without a reservation but I definitely, will not be choosing one of these options because I don’t believe he has the legal right to handle it this way.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> I just think that his best bet is to be consistent across the board if he's going to have any hope of keeping everyone from asking for refunds and the company going bankrupt. Allowing each owner/renter combo to negotiate separately is asking for trouble. Too hard to keep track of that way. The voucher system, in theory will be consistent.There are going to be plenty of owners taking advantage of this situation. Probably some renters that try to get a travel credit and a chargeback too.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a contract with him. I get that you think you fulfilled that contract, but if there are hundreds or thousands of contracts for millions of dollars outstanding and hundreds or thousands of  chargebacks and this goes into bankruptcy, with those numbers, lawyers will go after the money. If the judge says you got your points back and you need to return the 70%, you'll have to pay. They won't argue with you, they'll just send a collection agency after you and probably put a lien on your timeshare when you try to say you don't have to pay. If you think a judge will take your side. Good luck with that.



I’m based in the U.K. No chance will I be pursued.


----------



## Amymouse13

So basic logic on contracts is the terms cannot be changed unless everyone agrees to them.  David's cannot say well Disney was closed you need to do x bc it was not spelled out in contract.  If the check-in never occurred bc Disney is closed yet again not in contract.  If renter's contract is cancelled bc Disney is closed either by owner or Disney, still not in contract.  I'd guess best chance of success is renters arguing they never received something they paid for, probably a chargeback.  I'm not sold owners owe David anything especially in cases were the points expire before anyone can use them.  Not to mention I'm not sure a Canadian bankruptcy has any jurisdiction in US.  If my points were expiring I could not see reason I should be left in negative.  Definitely the rebooking 70% of points makes sense, but with any of this it is an amendment to a contract.  I don't feel as renter I'm required to amend my contract where I paid when my reservation was secured a year ago to risk my 4-5k without being tied to an actual reservation.  The original agreement was I paid after a reservation was secured, he wants to amend to pay for voucher from him... No deal.


----------



## Stitch_Is_King

LAX said:


> Curious if your contract has any wording that discusses what happens if the resort is closed due to "no one's fault." My guess is other brokers may face a similar problem as David's is now. However, the volume at other brokers may be more manageable, though.
> 
> LAX



Here is what I could find in the contract: 

The broker or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the broker's or the Member's control.


----------



## Amymouse13

Stitch_Is_King said:


> Here is what I could find in the contract:
> 
> The broker or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the broker's or the Member's control.



Right I can't sue owner if myself or party is injured for any of those reasons while there... Generic liability clause


----------



## fsjking

Sandisw said:


> Maybe I’m not saying it right,  The owner has a three way contract with Davids and the renter,  Davids has decided, on his own, to void the terms of *that *contract, with both people, by telling the renter they get a voucher for points from a different owner, and telling the owner to return money or rent your points to a different renter,
> 
> Unilaterally  deciding to simply void contracts and changing the terms IS a problem, regardless of his reasons or motives.
> 
> As I said,  I have a renter in August coming and we will see by then what happens.  I won’t leave the renter without a reservation but I definitely, will not be choosing one of these options because I don’t believe he has the legal right to handle it this way.



I think the contract was voided when the resorts closed. Now there is a valid question of whether he can make the changes he is making with a void contract. I think it certainly wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in court. He'd lose that. But if the contracts are void, are the owners legally obligated to return the money they were paid? This is a mess on so many levels. 




McCrae said:


> I’m based in the U.K. No chance will I be pursued.



The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far.  But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.


----------



## LAX

Stitch_Is_King said:


> Here is what I could find in the contract:
> 
> The broker or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, *damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party* in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions *outside the broker's or the Member's control*.



Thanks for posting. I am not trying to imply whether you are in a better or worse position in obtaining a refund relative to those rented from David's. However, the excerpt seems to be more restrictive on a potential renter's claim for reimbursement/refund when issues arise outside of the broker's or owner's control.

LAX


----------



## Stitch_Is_King

LAX said:


> Thanks for posting. I am not trying to imply whether you are in a better or worse position in obtaining a refund relative to those rented from David's. However, the excerpt seems to be more restrictive on a potential renter's claim for reimbursement/refund when issues arise outside of the broker or owner's control.
> 
> LAX



No problem. I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

I’m kind of surprised there was never a clause in there for resort closures. I know it’s incredibly rare up until now, if it even has ever happened, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that an event could shut down a resort. This widespread months and months of it, no that wouldn’t have really crossed anybody’s mind, but what about a single resort shut down because of a fire or something else more common than a pandemic? I guess maybe they would deal with those isolated cases as they came, but someone has to have considered that possibility right?


----------



## Yinn

Sandisw said:


> Well, it sounds like he opened himself up by putting it in an email to at least one owner,  That was sent before this travel credit idea was decided so maybe he realized that Might-not have been a good choice



It was also during a time of Disney’s changing policy. It could have been based on an understanding on Disney returning all points. It also could be to a member who’s within banking range, etc.


----------



## lovethesun12

McCrae said:


> I am thinking about saying to David’s keep the 30%, and walking away. Would like a clean break.


 I really don't understand why people think this is a good option. If you reuse the points yourself or re-rent them you are opening yourself up to the argument of double dipping which is illegal. If you let them sit and do nothing, you lose the 30% anyway and again open yourself up to an argument that you did nothing to honor the terms of the contract (remember, the owner may not have done anything to invalidate the contract themselves but neither did the renter or David's. Or even Disney for that matter).

The only thing that makes sense is to either return the funds or rebook, which is exactly what David's is offering.

Also in Canada there was a 75% wage subsidy for small/medium business as well as interest-free loans so I'm not sure why everyone is defaulting to bankruptcy being the only answer.


----------



## momincolorado

Few (very few) details on the “travel credit” (received in an e-mail from David’s today). It “will enable [the renter] to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.” No word on effective dates but it sounded like it might be some time before it goes into effect and of course it will come with an expiration date. 

Just an FYI re legal, sounds like they are heavily leaning on the clause in the 3 party contract that was put in to protect them from resort construction, pool or restaurant closing etc. “David’s...is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, playgrounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort...While Disney might offer you access to alternate amenities, David’s Vacation Club Rentals assumes no responsibility for situations that are not under its control.”


----------



## Sandisw

fsjking said:


> I think the contract was voided when the resorts closed. Now there is a valid question of whether he can make the changes he is making with a void contract. I think it certainly wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in court. He'd lose that. But if the contracts are void, are the owners legally obligated to return the money they were paid? This is a mess on so many levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far.  But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.



The three way contract may or may not be void, but the point is that it is a three way contract, with him as the intermediary.

Lets assume it is...It doesn’t change the fact that he doesn’t get to decide on his own on what happens.  I would even say that the owner and renter would have more say than him,

Point is, if all agree it’s void, then everyone should go back to where they started, or agree to come up with a remedy that ALL parties are in agreement with to deal with it, 

 He wants to void all the parts of the contract except the non refundable part...not giving money back to renter,,,because that benefits him,

Im not sure I can explain it any better, and we just don’t agree that what he is doing is wrong.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> I really don't understand why people think this is a good option. If you reuse the points yourself or re-rent them you are opening yourself up to the argument of double dipping which is illegal. If you let them sit and do nothing, you lose the 30% anyway and again open yourself up to an argument that you did nothing to honor the terms of the contract (remember, the owner may not have done anything to invalidate the contract themselves but neither did the renter or David's. Or even Disney for that matter).
> 
> The only thing that makes sense is to either return the funds or rebook, which is exactly what David's is offering.
> 
> Also in Canada there was a 75% wage subsidy for small/medium business as well as interest-free loans so I'm not sure why everyone is defaulting to bankruptcy being the only answer.



But Davids is NOT offering owners the option to refund or rebook the renter,  That is the point.  He wants the owner to refund the money to him or agree to rebook a different renter.

I would love to offer him the ability to keep my 30% and then tell the renter I will deal with him privately just to severe my contract with a broker who I have no faith in anymore,

I won’t because my renter has almost 5 months so they should be all set, but if this isn’t worked out by then, that is exactly what I will do.


----------



## lovethesun12

Sandisw said:


> But Davids is NOT offering owners the option to refund or rebook the renter,  That is the point.  He wants the owner to refund the money to him or agree to rebook a different renter.
> 
> I would love to offer him the ability to keep my 30% and then tell the renter I will deal with him privately just to severe my contract with a broker who I have no faith in anymore,
> 
> I won’t because my renter has almost 5 months so they should be all set, but if this isn’t worked out by then, that is exactly what I will do.


Even then though that is not really the owner's issue. The owner then did their part to honor the contract so is not liable. If David offered the refund to one person, everyone would expect it. I think it is reasonable to offer credit. He then has a pool of points to draw from for dates for people who want to rebook. He also has a pool of cash for reservations where he is unable to rebook and offer some level of refund.

I'm not 100% certain on the details but it is also quite possible David will also have received a 75% wage subsidy and interest free loans from the government to help sort out any reservations that cannot be rebooked.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> Even then though that is not really the owner's issue. The owner then did their part to honor the contract so is not liable. If David offered the refund to one person, everyone would expect it. I think it is reasonable to offer credit. He then has a pool of points to draw from for dates for people who want to rebook. He also has a pool of cash for reservations where he is unable to rebook and offer some level of refund.
> 
> I'm not 100% certain on the details but it is also quite possible David will also have received a 75% wage subsidy and interest free loans from the government to help sort out any reservations that cannot be rebooked.



I absolutely see it as an owners concern because I am a member of the contract,  No one party gets to decide what is and is not enforceable and Davids is doing the deciding,

In terms of others, his response is that all are individual contracts and not all will be settled the same way.

Of course, from Davids side, what he is proposing makes sense for him.

But why should he be the only one who gets to say what happens? Three people are involved,  He can suggest, and so can the renter, and so can the owner.  Like I said, I can cancel the reservation, tell the renter that I did, he can then tell Davids that the owner breached, and he is entitled to the refund.

Just as valid of a solution as what he has proposed, if we are simply changing terms of contracts at whim,

But, if you are saying the owner is not liable, so they can walk away with the 70%, then sure, he can do whatever he wants with the renters,  As long as he involves the owner and renter in doing something, the owner and renters should have a say as well,


----------



## Krandor

LAX said:


> As an owner myself, I certainly want a vibrant rental market for the occasional time that I end up not using the points myself. However, a vibrant rental market doesn't have to include brokers like David's. I realize this may sound harsh, but David's has really screwed this one up. While he may not have other choices, screwing the owners is definitely not the way to make things right. I will look for another broker in the future if I end up needing to rent my points.
> 
> LAX



Like I said above I'm not an owner or anybody who has rented but a company that deletes social media posts and hides reviews is not one I'd ever deal with.   If people have complaints/questions answer them and help them don't delete them.  I don't like some other aspects of how david is handling things but the deleting any complaints is enough for me never to deal with him.


----------



## Amymouse13

Krandor said:


> Like I said above I'm not an owner or anybody who has rented but a company that deletes social media posts and hides reviews is not one I'd ever deal with.   If people have complaints/questions answer them and help them don't delete them.  I don't like some other aspects of how david is handling things but the deleting any complaints is enough for me never to deal with him.


Or posts the same canned response no matter what is asked?? Will it snow tomorrow?  We are currently working on... Haha


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Krandor said:


> Like I said above I'm not an owner or anybody who has rented but a company that deletes social media posts and hides reviews is not one I'd ever deal with.   If people have complaints/questions answer them and help them don't delete them.  I don't like some other aspects of how david is handling things but the deleting any complaints is enough for me never to deal with him.



And it’s not even like its complaints for the sake of complaints. A lot of it is legit questions and comments that address major real issues going on here, comments made by people stuck in this mess, that they apparently don’t want detracting from the grateful thanks for the credit going on on their page. That really bugs me.


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> Maybe I’m not saying it right,  The owner has a three way contract with Davids and the renter,  Davids has decided, on his own, to void the terms of *that *contract, with both people, by telling the renter they get a voucher for points from a different owner, and telling the owner to return money or rent your points to a different renter,
> 
> Unilaterally  deciding to simply void contracts and changing the terms IS a problem, regardless of his reasons or motives.
> 
> As I said,  I have a renter in August coming and we will see by then what happens.  I won’t leave the renter without a reservation but I definitely, will not be choosing one of these options because I don’t believe he has the legal right to handle it this way.



You summed it up well. 

David's right now is focused on keeping David's from going bankrupt.  They don't really care about the renters or owners but only about what will keep them afloat.


----------



## lovethesun12

Sandisw said:


> I absolutely see it as an owners concern because I am a member of the contract,  No one party gets to decide what is and is not enforceable and Davids is doing the deciding,
> 
> In terms of others, his response is that all are individual contracts and not all will be settled the same way.
> 
> Of course, from Davids side, what he is proposing makes sense for him.
> 
> But why should he be the only one who gets to say what happens? Three people are involved,  He can suggest, and so can the renter, and so can the owner.  Like I said, I can cancel the reservation, tell the renter that I did, he can then tell Davids that the owner breached, and he is entitled to the refund.
> 
> Just as valid of a solution as what he has proposed, if we are simply changing terms of contracts at whim,
> 
> But, if you are saying the owner is not liable, so they can walk away with the 70%, then sure, he can do whatever he wants with the renters,  As long as he involves the owner and renter in doing something, the owner and renters should have a say as well,


I can see what your saying; it's considering the one agreement but not the big picture. One person might rent from an owner who offers a refund but they want to rebook for September and there is availability. Another renter might rent from an owner whose points expire in October but they cannot travel until Christmas for which there is no availability. If he goes contract by contract 1 is unhappy and 1 isn't. If he offers all owners/renters the same option both are happy in this case because he could play match up.


----------



## ziravan

David’s business model is sunk no matter what support the Canadian govt offers him.

His model was built by word of mouth and by promising security in a private rental transaction. He will no longer have the former and this event has proven that the latter was merely an illusion.

Both owners and renters will avoid that business model like, if you’ll excuse, the plague in the future.


----------



## Krandor

DGsAtBLT said:


> And it’s not even like its complaints for the sake of complaints. A lot of it is legit questions and comments that address major real issues going on here, comments made by people stuck in this mess, that they apparently don’t want detracting from the grateful thanks for the credit going on on their page. That really bugs me.



Totally agree.  David's is saying to the owners "Have compassion for the X family and send your 70% to David" but if an owner says "I have compassion for X family and would like to reschedule their vacation" THAT gets deleted?  Isn't offering to reschedule if you don't have points that expire quickly being compassionate to them?


----------



## starry_solo

Third party beneficiary. Might be a good idea to look it up.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> I can see what your saying; it's considering the one agreement but not the big picture. One person might rent from an owner who offers a refund but they want to rebook for September and there is availability. Another renter might rent from an owner whose points expire in October but they cannot travel until Christmas for which there is no availability. If he goes contract by contract 1 is unhappy and 1 isn't. If he offers all owners/renters the same option both are happy in this case because he could play match up.



Exactly! I agree it is about the big picture, but only for Davids, not me as an owner,

For me as an owner, it is about the contracts I signed and agreed to and what and how I want to support the renters regardless of whether I have to or not,

If I am going to have to swerve from the terms of the contract I signed, then I am going to have a say in what that swerve is.

Now that Davids has made the choice he has, I have lost faith in him and honestly, have no desire to work with him in any way if it doesn’t benefit the renter or myself.


----------



## LAX

Krandor said:


> You summed it up well.
> 
> David's right now is focused on keeping David's from going bankrupt.  They don't really care about the renters or owners but only about what will keep them afloat.



This is the impression I am getting and I am not even involved in this whole mess directly. I understand that a business owner has to do what he/she needs to do to save the business, but I think there are some lines that can't be crossed even if the intent is to save the business. What good is the business if it ends up alienating its suppliers (limited) and its customers (now & future)?

LAX


----------



## Krandor

LAX said:


> This is the impression I am getting and I am not even involved in this whole mess directly. I understand that a business owner has to do what he/she needs to do to save the business, but I think there are some lines that can't be crossed even if the intent is to save the business. What good is the business if it ends up alienating its suppliers (limited) and its customers (now & future)?
> 
> LAX



Agreed and im not directly involved either. Im
Also normally a pro business try person but that doesn’t mean supporting businesses deleting questions and concerns on social media.  

In a time like this be up front and honest. “We don’t have an answer to your question yet but will have one soon” is a better response then deleting the question.  People will understand this is not a normal time.


----------



## conandrob240

Agreed. Look at what Airbnb tried to do to owners and then quickly realize they didn’t have a business if they didn’t retain their owners.


----------



## Krandor

conandrob240 said:


> Agreed. Look at what Airbnb tried to do to owners and then quickly realize they didn’t have a business if they didn’t retain their owners.



yep which is why David is only asking owners to return the money and not threatening them.


----------



## lovethesun12

I'm curious now - what are the other DVC rental companies offering owners/renters that is better than this?


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> I'm curious now - what are the other DVC rental companies offering owners/renters that is better than this?



I read one company was giving refunds. I read about others working to get owners to rebook for the renters.


----------



## MichellT

My 2c and again I'm not a David's customer -- though I do find value in his service and use his calculator all the time    I am a private owner who purchased a points buffer long ago, with the intention of renting out some points each year to offset our dues.  Since 2003, I've rented to over 50 families and done almost 100 rentals (we get lots of "repeat" business, right up until people buy their own DVC!).  We have met so many families along the way, some of whom have become friends!  

Through life changes and job losses and surprise pregnancies and hurricanes and everything that happens to 50 families in 17 years, I thought I had seen it all until a pandemic hit.  I posted upthread that we were able to accommodate all of our renters during this crazy time, by working through things individually and making things right.  Each case had a little give and take to it but what's important to me is that our renters still have a Disney vacation to look forward to -- even if it's more forward than they planned to look 

David has a business that has no inventory -- he match-makes other people's product to a marketed audience, and contracts the matches.  If he is not able to honor his own contract then I suspect he will sink because that's the only "product" he ever had.  However the contracting isn't the only product which doesn't exist anymore :-(  And both from a cash flow and a hands-on-keyboards perspective, David is probably underwater with the work it will take to straighten these reservations out.

Unprecedented times call for creative solutions.  I would suggest that David look at all his open contracts through the foreseeable future (pick now through July 1st checkin dates) and mobilize his army of owners to work individually with their own renters to make an attempt to re-book reservations to both parties' satisfaction.  For owners and renters doing his job, David should offer in good faith to pay for up to 10% breakage -- that is when the new reservations cost a few more or less points than the original ones (they usually do), he could pony up that cash in compensation for his ending up hands-off.

If the contracts do not currently allow for putting the owners and renters in direct contact, a quick webpage contract "amendment" form where owners and renters enter their contract numbers and approval would solve this problem -- he can individually pick up "matches" where both the owner and renter of the same contract want to work together and share their contact information to move forward.

One thing is clear, which is that businesses which do the wrong thing when the right option is open to them, during a pandemic, will cease to exist in the world we'll all walk back out into when the virus is under control.


----------



## momincolorado

lovethesun12 said:


> I'm curious now - what are the other DVC rental companies offering owners/renters that is better than this?



I’m not sure it really matters to me what the others are doing; I rented through him. He’s one of the biggest players in the market. And so far, all we have seen from him is an attempt to mitigate chargebacks (travel credit), asking owners to refund or re-rent (not in their current contract) to help to fund this “travel credit” idea and any legitimate questions and comments quickly disappearing from their FB page. Was he not supposed to provide protection, a piece of mind for both sides? As a renter, I personally would never use him again.


----------



## Cyberc1978

fsjking said:


> The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far.  But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.



Could you elaborate why it’s a disadvantage?


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Cyberc1978 said:


> Could you elaborate why it’s a disadvantage?


this is of interest to me also as I am UK based.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> I think the contract was voided when the resorts closed. Now there is a valid question of whether he can make the changes he is making with a void contract. I think it certainly wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in court. He'd lose that. But if the contracts are void, are the owners legally obligated to return the money they were paid? This is a mess on so many levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The property is deeded in Florida. You being in the UK actually puts you at a disadvantage trying to defend it if it goes that far.  But you clearly have your mind made up, so I'm not going to keep trying to explain the problem with your logic.



It’s a question of legal jurisdiction regarding the contract and how it’s enforced. In my case because I signed the contract in the U.K. the U.K. courts have jurisdiction.


----------



## Cyberc1978

McCrae said:


> It’s a question of legal jurisdiction regarding the contract and how it’s enforced. In my case because I signed the contract in the U.K. the U.K. courts have jurisdiction.



As the contracts are signed digitally wouldn’t the majority or close to everyone(renter and owner) signing a contract be in their home country?


----------



## McCrae

Cyberc1978 said:


> As the contracts are signed digitally wouldn’t the majority or close to everyone(renter and owner) signing a contract be in their home country?


It's unclear, especially with international contracts. Usually with International contracts the default position is UK law. Normally in civil matters the party making the claim would need to do it in the jurisdiction of person they are claiming against. Court papers cannot be served electronically.  All initial costs would need to be paid by the person pursing the claim. An international civil claim would cost the person making the claim more than they would receive back.  It's not going to happen.


----------



## lovethesun12

momincolorado said:


> I’m not sure it really matters to me what the others are doing; I rented through him. He’s one of the biggest players in the market. And so far, all we have seen from him is an attempt to mitigate chargebacks (travel credit), asking owners to refund or re-rent (not in their current contract) to help to fund this “travel credit” idea and any legitimate questions and comments quickly disappearing from their FB page. Was he not supposed to provide protection, a piece of mind for both sides? As a renter, I personally would never use him again.


I guess so. I rented as well (not him, and my stay is not cancelled but I feel it will have to be) and I have a different view. I'm not with David's but kind of wish I was right now because I would know for certain I would be offered that option, and it wouldn't fall back on just *hoping* my owner could/would rebook my stay. People are saying DVC is/will be limited but I've looked at availability and I could stay in August, October, November or Christmas right now, but I would have to be flexible with the resort which I would be fine with. 

As a renter I was feeling good about the owner trying to do the right thing but after reading these responses and people wanting to stick it to David's and planning to walk away with their 70% and all their points I'm now wary. If David's doesn't have points to rent or money to refund the renter will automatically take the entire loss, when it is everyone's fault (and no one's fault) this happened. In this case it will force the renter to look for options - chargebacks/insurance/small claims court - all headaches and unnecessary really. 

David's can't agree to pay the 30% upfront now for the same reasons he can't on any other day. It isn't the owners fault the reservation was cancelled but it isn't David's either. If he pays everyone 30%, he would run into the same problems of paying 100% to everyone if the resorts weren't cancel (default on dues, cancellations, etc).


----------



## CraigInPA

McCrae said:


> It's unclear, especially with international contracts. Usually with International contracts the default position is UK law. Normally in civil matters the party making the claim would need to do it in the jurisdiction of person they are claiming against. Court papers cannot be served electronically.  All initial costs would need to be paid by the person pursing the claim. An international civil claim would cost the person making the claim more than they would receive back.  It's not going to happen.



I believe there is a jurisdiction clause in David's contract that specifies Canada as the venue. But, as you've correctly pointed out, serving notice on owners outside Canada for a $1000-4000 is not likely to generate any real return for David's. If I got notice David's was suing me in Canada, I'd file a request for a change in venue to Pennsylvania (where I am) or Florida (where the property is). By the time he dealt with that, his legal service and lawyer's fees would have eaten up several thousand dollars. If I got notice that David's was suing me in the US, and it wasn't  Pennsylvania, I'd file for a venue change to Pennsylvania and argue that neither David's nor I are in Florida, and his contract has a venue of Canada. 

In bankruptcy, the examiner isn't going to go after a bunch of owners located all over the planet to attempt to get them to pay back deposits paid to them by David's because of the expense alone, even ignoring the possibility that the contract is unfavorable to litigation.


----------



## lovethesun12

CraigInPA said:


> I believe there is a jurisdiction clause in David's contract that specifies Canada as the venue. But, as you've correctly pointed out, serving notice on owners outside Canada for a $1000-4000 is not likely to generate any real return for David's. If I got notice David's was suing me in Canada, I'd file a request for a change in venue to Pennsylvania (where I am) or Florida (where the property is). By the time he dealt with that, his legal service and lawyer's fees would have eaten up several thousand dollars. If I got notice that David's was suing me in the US, and it wasn't  Pennsylvania, I'd file for a venue change to Pennsylvania and argue that neither David's nor I are in Florida, and his contract has a venue of Canada.
> 
> In bankruptcy, the examiner isn't going to go after a bunch of owners located all over the planet to attempt to get them to pay back deposits paid to them by David's because of the expense alone, even ignoring the possibility that the contract is unfavorable to litigation.


But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner? Now this is a road I wouldn't want to go down but I do know double-dipping is for certain illegal in Canada. I can also see from quick google searches it seems in the USA the same is true - the landlord (owner) has the responsibility to mitigate damages.


----------



## Amymouse13

You know I'm actually kinda surprised no one saw the possibility Disney might be closed as something to write into a contract considering it's Florida... Lots of hurricanes?  

The Outer Banks rental contracts very clearly discuss hurricanes.  Even despite that many rental companies are trying to sort out some option during this as OBX has blockades in place to prevent non residents.  This likely falls under the same disaster order during hurricanes they deal with almost every year.  They also link insurance to their contact, click here to add.  

I mean I never thought about it when we rented, but seems if your business is based in an area that routinely has hurricanes you might... 

A bad contract is a bad contract.


----------



## McCrae

lovethesun12 said:


> But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner?



You need to follow the money. Renters paid David’s, not the owner. The company that David used to pay the owner could potentially claim against the owner.  Still need to establish if anyone has liability and if the no refunds/no change clause is valid or not.  Due to the complexity , costs and uncertainty of who would win this I can’t see many people going down the legal route.  Renters could pay a lot of money just to become a creditor of a bankrupt company.


----------



## Mzpalmtree

Amymouse13 said:


> You know I'm actually kinda surprised no one saw the possibility Disney might be closed as something to write into a contract considering it's Florida... Lots of hurricanes?
> 
> The Outer Banks rental contracts very clearly discuss hurricanes.  Even despite that many rental companies are trying to sort out some option during this as OBX has blockades in place to prevent non residents.  This likely falls under the same disaster order during hurricanes they deal with almost every year.  They also link insurance to their contact, click here to add.
> 
> I mean I never thought about it when we rented, but seems if your business is based in an area that routinely has hurricanes you might...
> 
> A bad contract is a bad contract.


I do agree with you but I grew up in Central Florida and typically the inland cities don’t have a lot of fear about long time closures from hurricanes. I don’t think it’s been a big risk for them historically—certainly less than the NC outer banks or coastal Florida. A closure would have typically just been a couple of days to restore power, etc—nothing like what we are seeing here. But I do believe it is short sited not to include a clause for it.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> You know I'm actually kinda surprised no one saw the possibility Disney might be closed as something to write into a contract considering it's Florida... Lots of hurricanes?
> 
> The Outer Banks rental contracts very clearly discuss hurricanes.  Even despite that many rental companies are trying to sort out some option during this as OBX has blockades in place to prevent non residents.  This likely falls under the same disaster order during hurricanes they deal with almost every year.  They also link insurance to their contact, click here to add.
> 
> I mean I never thought about it when we rented, but seems if your business is based in an area that routinely has hurricanes you might...
> 
> A bad contract is a bad contract.



I think this actually adds to the defence case. Resorts do close, you should be aware of that and take appropriate insurance coverage if it’s a concern.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> I guess so. I rented as well (not him, and my stay is not cancelled but I feel it will have to be) and I have a different view. I'm not with David's but kind of wish I was right now because I would know for certain I would be offered that option, and it wouldn't fall back on just *hoping* my owner could/would rebook my stay. People are saying DVC is/will be limited but I've looked at availability and I could stay in August, October, November or Christmas right now, but I would have to be flexible with the resort which I would be fine with.
> 
> As a renter I was feeling good about the owner trying to do the right thing but after reading these responses and people wanting to stick it to David's and planning to walk away with their 70% and all their points I'm now wary. If David's doesn't have points to rent or money to refund the renter will automatically take the entire loss, when it is everyone's fault (and no one's fault) this happened. In this case it will force the renter to look for options - chargebacks/insurance/small claims court - all headaches and unnecessary really.
> 
> David's can't agree to pay the 30% upfront now for the same reasons he can't on any other day. It isn't the owners fault the reservation was cancelled but it isn't David's either. If he pays everyone 30%, he would run into the same problems of paying 100% to everyone if the resorts weren't cancel (default on dues, cancellations, etc).



Whatever you are looking at, unless you are a DVC member, is not real time availability.

And you have it backwards, no one wants to stick it to Davids. Davids is the one who is NOT allowing owners, who have control of the points, to help out renters, like you to try and get their vacation scheduled if they can.

Many owners here who have the ability to help, want to help the renter and every day Davids doesn’t put out the word to try and make that connection, availability disappears as owners who have their own reservation reschedule.

I rescheduled my 4 night May trip to October last Friday With 3 nights at one place and one at another,  The next day,  there was nothing but one night here and there, and every day since.

The longer Davids stands in the way of trying to get owners and renters to try and work it out..which does limit his loses, chargebacks, etc..,the more he is causing owners, like me, to sour on his business model.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Dracula said:


> Why would an owner cancel the reservation and have the points go into holding? The best thing to do is wait for Disney to cancel, so points are not in holding and may even be unborrowed. Plus remain in compliance with David's contract, so as to avoid refunding the 70% downpayment.


No holding at this point in time.  Even if cancelled 30 days or less.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner? Now this is a road I wouldn't want to go down but I do know double-dipping is for certain illegal in Canada. I can also see from quick google searches it seems in the USA the same is true - the landlord (owner) has the responsibility to mitigate damages.



I would think renter has to prove the owner used the points for another rental to be considered double dipping,  or that they got usable points back, not to mention Davids is not paying the 30% to owners, so the renter would only be able after the owner for about 50% since that is all the owner has received of the renters funds,

If I was a renter, and I found out that the owner had tried to get me rescheduled ASAP or returned the money and I could have gotten a refund,  I would not be happy with the voucher,

This voucher idea sounds great for renters who believe it’s the only choice.


----------



## Deb & Bill

lovethesun12 said:


> I guess so. I rented as well (not him, and my stay is not cancelled but I feel it will have to be) and I have a different view. I'm not with David's but kind of wish I was right now because I would know for certain I would be offered that option, and it wouldn't fall back on just *hoping* my owner could/would rebook my stay. People are saying DVC is/will be limited but I've looked at availability and I could stay in August, October, November or Christmas right now, but I would have to be flexible with the resort which I would be fine with.
> 
> As a renter I was feeling good about the owner trying to do the right thing but after reading these responses and people wanting to stick it to David's and planning to walk away with their 70% and all their points I'm now wary. If David's doesn't have points to rent or money to refund the renter will automatically take the entire loss, when it is everyone's fault (and no one's fault) this happened. In this case it will force the renter to look for options - chargebacks/insurance/small claims court - all headaches and unnecessary really.
> 
> David's can't agree to pay the 30% upfront now for the same reasons he can't on any other day. It isn't the owners fault the reservation was cancelled but it isn't David's either. If he pays everyone 30%, he would run into the same problems of paying 100% to everyone if the resorts weren't cancel (default on dues, cancellations, etc).


You are forgetting about the expiration date of the points.  Banked points cannot be banked a second time.  If the owner is past their banking deadline, they cannot bank the points for even a first time.   So some of the points expired on March 31, some May 31, some July 31 and so on.  Is it fair for the owner to be out their points and any money they have already been paid?  They should at least be able to keep enough to pay for their annual fees.  David has about 47% of the money the renter paid to rent the points.  The owner already didn't get the 30% David held back. 

If the points owner doesn't get the 30% upon changing the reservation (if they can) that was withheld, why does David get to keep it?  He's not refunding any money to the renter.   And if the owner waits too long, they will never get the money.  The renter will still have a new reservation, maybe not the ideal time they had originally planned on, but they will have a reservation.


----------



## Marionnette

@lovethesun12 , I don’t know where you’re checking availability but unless you’re an owner, you’re only seeing a snapshot in time on public websites. Availability is fluid and changes by the minute, more so this year due to the owners who are canceling and rebooking their Spring trips. In addition, you might as well ignore any availability that occurs mid-November thru December because owners can only book their home resorts for those dates right now.

You also don’t know the situation of the owner’s points. If they have a June, August, September, October or December use year, it won’t matter what’s available, those points may not be useable for the dates that are open or when you can travel.

Owners on here don’t want to “stick it to David’s”. They don’t view the renters as the enemy and most would do whatever they can to salvage the renter’s trips. Doing so would also guarantee that the owners would get the balance that David’s owes them. In actuality, owners are frustrated with a system that David’s has set in place that puts David’s interests above those of both the owners and the renters. Every day that owners sit waiting for DVC to cancel their renter’s reservation is a day of reduced availability later in the year when points could possibly be used to reschedule the renter.

It’s frustrating to know that you could help if you could just contact the renter directly and work out a solution. But renters with a May or June reservation are being told to just wait patiently because David’s staff is dealing with March and April renters. And owners are being told not to contact the renter, that David’s will handle it in good time. Nero fiddles while Rome burns.


----------



## yankeesfan123

I think a good response to David’s initial email from both renters and owners should be, “thank you for the options. I’ll discuss with my lawyer about my legal options under the contract before deciding how to proceed.”

David’s might magically decide to offer new choices at that point.


----------



## lovethesun12

McCrae said:


> You need to follow the money. Renters paid David’s, not the owner. The company that David used to pay the owner could potentially claim against the owner.  Still need to establish if anyone has liability and if the no refunds/no change clause is valid or not.  Due to the complexity , costs and uncertainty of who would win this I can’t see many people going down the legal route.  Renters could pay a lot of money just to become a creditor of a bankrupt company.


 This is true but I would take the advice of a lawyer. Small claims court is not *that* expensive if you are out thousands. Again this would not be the preferred route for me at all it is a huge can of worms I would prefer not to open if simpler solutions were available.


McCrae said:


> I think this actually adds to the defence case. Resorts do close, you should be aware of that and take appropriate insurance coverage if it’s a concern.


I have 3 types of insurance coverage, one was much better than the one I was offered and allows me to cancel up until the day of my vacation. Yes there are people that know everything and probably predicted a pandemic but a normal commoner like myself would probably think trip cancellation coverage up to the day you leave is better than coverage where you aren't fully covered 30 days out. Actually though, I would be o.k. being out the money, as long as the owner did their best to minimize damages. If they refuse to even attempt to rebook and walk away with their money as well to me they are not doing their best to limit damage. They are basically saying too bad so sad you are on your own. 


Sandisw said:


> Whatever you are looking at, unless you are a DVC member, is not real time availability.
> 
> And you have it backwards, no one wants to stick it to Davids. Davids is the one who is NOT allowing owners, who have control of the points, to help out renters, like you to try and get their vacation scheduled if they can.
> 
> Many owners here who have the ability to help, want to help the renter and every day Davids doesn’t put out the word to try and make that connection, availability disappears as owners who have their own reservation reschedule.
> 
> I rescheduled my 4 night May trip to October last Friday With 3 nights at one place and one at another,  The next day,  there was nothing but one night here and there, and every day since.
> 
> The longer Davids stands in the way of trying to get owners and renters to try and work it out..which does limit his loses, chargebacks, etc..,the more he is causing owners, like me, to sour on his business model.


Do you think you are helping the renter out by keeping the 70% and all your points? Leaving David's 0 options to give them at all? Many businesses are offering credits because it is a reasonable solution. Our airlines are not refunding either they are giving credit as well. I'm not sure you could argue you did your best to mitigate damages if you refuse to return what you were paid and also refuse to do anything with the paid for points.


Sandisw said:


> I would think renter has to prove the owner used the points for another rental to be considered double dipping,  or that they got usable points back, not to mention Davids is not paying the 30% to owners, so the renter would only be able after the owner for about 50% since that is all the owner has received of the renters funds,
> 
> If I was a renter, and I found out that the owner had tried to get me rescheduled ASAP or returned the money and I could have gotten a refund,  I would not be happy with the voucher,
> 
> This voucher idea sounds great for renters who believe it’s the only choice.


Well that would be for a lawyer. But in that case the owner receives the value of the points the renter paid for. I cannot see how that would not be double dipping but again that would be for a judge and legal experience to decide not me.


Deb & Bill said:


> You are forgetting about the expiration date of the points.  Banked points cannot be banked a second time.  If the owner is past their banking deadline, they cannot bank the points for even a first time.   So some of the points expired on March 31, some May 31, some July 31 and so on.  Is it fair for the owner to be out their points and any money they have already been paid?  They should at least be able to keep enough to pay for their annual fees.  David has about 47% of the money the renter paid to rent the points.  The owner already didn't get the 30% David held back.
> 
> If the points owner doesn't get the 30% upon changing the reservation (if they can) that was withheld, why does David get to keep it?  He's not refunding any money to the renter.   And if the owner waits too long, they will never get the money.  The renter will still have a new reservation, maybe not the ideal time they had originally planned on, but they will have a reservation.


That would be a smaller number of people in those categories. I would specifically say my points expire March 31 so I cannot rebook and no in that case I definitely would not return the 70% either. It doesn't make sense for someone with points expiring March 31 or even April/May to take that offer. I would agree there.


Marionnette said:


> @lovethesun12 You also don’t know the situation of the owner’s points. If they have a June, August, September, October or December use year, it won’t matter what’s available, those points may not be useable for the dates that are open or when you can travel.
> 
> Owners on here don’t want to “stick it to David’s”. They don’t view the renters as the enemy and most would do whatever they can to salvage the renter’s trips. Doing so would also guarantee that the owners would get the balance that David’s owes them. In actuality, owners are frustrated with a system that David’s has set in place that puts David’s interests above those of both the owners and the renters. Every day that owners sit waiting for DVC to cancel their renter’s reservation is a day of reduced availability later in the year when points could possibly be used to reschedule the renter.


This is exactly why David's offering is the best option. He has the entire pool of renters and owners. So if he has an owner who has points expiring in July, he can book the earliest reservations with those and the owners get their 30% back and are made whole. Then August, September, etc to best negate the damage. Then he also has a pool of cash he can draw on when it's impossible to rebook for scenarios like points expiring in March.

If you deal with every single individual contract, people who have points expiring in August for example may not have a renter that can return in August. It is much more likely David could have 1 person willing to travel in August if he has a shizload of renters to choose from.


----------



## CraigInPA

lovethesun12 said:


> But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner? Now this is a road I wouldn't want to go down but I do know double-dipping is for certain illegal in Canada. I can also see from quick google searches it seems in the USA the same is true - the landlord (owner) has the responsibility to mitigate damages.



The venue is applicable to all parties who wish to originate a lawsuit. 

The term "double dipping" is argumentative, and does not actually express what has occurred in most cases. The owner has an agreement with David's to book a reservation with points, which he has done. At the time of the booking, the points were worth $14.50 to the owner and David's agreed to pay that to the owner in two payments, $10.15 per point immediately and $4.35 per point on check-in day. Through no fault of the owner or David's, the reservation was cancelled. David's has withheld the $4.35 payment. At that moment, the points fell into one of 4 categories:

1. Able to be put back into a future year. The owner has no out of pocket loss, and should work with David's to mitigate the loss to the other two parties by either booking a new reservation FOR THAT RENTER or to refund the $10.15 per point payment for the points that were restored to their original borrowed year. I suspect that there are very, very few of cases where an owner borrowed 100% of the points to rent.

2. Banked points and current year points which expire at the end of the use year in 2020. These are now highly distressed points, worth, according to David's own site, only $4-8 per point. Because there are few accommodations remaining between September and December, and David's has stated they would not book summer reservations, these points are likely to be lost, reducing their value to zero. The correct thing to happen would be that David's should attempt to mitigate the loss to the owner by booking a vacation with them. Should David's not be able to do that, he is responsible for the $4.35 per point payment. Because of the distressed nature of the points, the owner should refuse to refund the $10.15 per point payment, as that payment, under the owner's agreement with David's, is not refundable. This gives David's more incentive to work hard to book a trip with these points. 

3. Banked points and current year points which expire at the end of their use year in 2021. David's should attempt to mitigate the loss to the owner by re-booking the original renter, or with agreement by by other parties, a new renter. Should David's not be able to utilize the points, he is responsible for the $4.35 per point payment. Liked banked and current year points expiring in 2020, the owner should refuse to refund the $10.15 per point payment, as that payment, under the owner's agreement with David's, is not refundable. This gives David's more incentive to work hard to book a trip with these points.

4. Some combination of 1, 2, and 3. I suspect this is the most common situation. DVC members may have expiring points. By renting them, they gain some value. The way David's works is that he will ask you to borrow a small number of future points to fulfill requests and leave you with no "stranded" points.  In previous pages, we've heard from owners who booked with combinations of current and future year points. In this case, each group of points should be considered separately.

In US court, each party is responsible to the other to mitigate damages to THEMSELVES. Absent vexatious conduct, there is no underlying responsibility to mitigate damages to the other party when there is contract non-performance.


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## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> This is true but I would take the advice of a lawyer. Small claims court is not *that* expensive if you are out thousands. Again this would not be the preferred route for me at all it is a huge can of worms I would prefer not to open if simpler solutions were available.
> I have 3 types of insurance coverage, one was much better than the one I was offered and allows me to cancel up until the day of my vacation. Yes there are people that know everything and probably predicted a pandemic but a normal commoner like myself would probably think trip cancellation coverage up to the day you leave is better than coverage where you aren't fully covered 30 days out. Actually though, I would be o.k. being out the money, as long as the owner did their best to minimize damages. If they refuse to even attempt to rebook and walk away with their money as well to me they are not doing their best to limit damage. They are basically saying too bad so sad you are on your own.
> Do you think you are helping the renter out by keeping the 70% and all your points? Leaving David's 0 options to give them at all? Many businesses are offering credits because it is a reasonable solution. Our airlines are not refunding either they are giving credit as well. I'm not sure you could argue you did your best to mitigate damages if you refuse to return what you were paid and also refuse to do anything with the paid for points.
> Well that would be for a lawyer. But in that case the owner receives the value of the points the renter paid for. I cannot see how that would not be double dipping but again that would be for a judge and legal experience to decide not me.
> That would be a smaller number of people in those categories. I would specifically say my points expire March 31 so I cannot rebook and no in that case I definitely would not return the 70% either. It doesn't make sense for someone with points expiring March 31 or even April/May to take that offer. I would agree there.
> This is exactly why David's offering is the best option. He has the entire pool of renters and owners. So if he has an owner who has points expiring in July, he can book the earliest reservations with those and the owners get their 30% back and are made whole. Then August, September, etc to best negate the damage. Then he also has a pool of cash he can draw on when it's impossible to rebook for scenarios like points expiring in March.
> 
> If you deal with every single individual contract, people who have points expiring in August for example may not have a renter that can return in August. It is much more likely David could have 1 person willing to travel in August if he has a shizload of renters to choose from.



Your points apply only to the owners who decide to not offer the refund and not help the renter,

You are missing the point that owners, like me, ARE willing to help the renter get a reservation that works for them by offering up the points used for another time.

I guess I am confused, especially as a renter, why you think the broker is the one who needs to be made whole.

If you knew your owner had offered you a refund, you Would not want it?  Or if your owner tells your broker they want to work with you and reschedule, would you want thst?

But, even so, if the contract doesn’t require an owner to return the funds, or offer the points, or it’s not clear that is their liability, then the courts are the way to do,

It is not Davids who gets to decide this outcome.  It is the owner, the renter and Davids,

I guarantee you that any renter out there right now who is facing a loss would JUMP at the chance to either get their money back or a new reservation right now vs, taking a voucher that they have no idea what that gives them, 

The voucher option only benefits Davids in a situation where the owner is willing to help the renter, which is why he does t want any other deal to be done,  

There are lots of ways he could be working to help owners and renter..and his business without making it a one size fits all approach.   He has chosen not to allow that because he doesn’t really care about the actual parties he put together, but just himself.


----------



## VeroGuy

As a renter I’m still of the opinion that a case can be made that the renter has very little fault in this other than maybe not buying insurance. 

I know that my contract does not tell me if the points I’m renting are expiring in a month or a year. All I know is that I have rented valid points from an owner through David’s and that a reservation has been booked. In perfect times that is all I needed to know but these aren’t perfect times and I think that an argument could be made that the owner and David’s has fault for renting points so late into there UY and having a contract that does not address the closing of the resorts by the property management company (Disney Vacation Club) acting on behalf of the owner of the time share. 

Can an owner explain why as a renter I shouldn’t feel like I’ve gotten the short end of the stick in this scenario?

I think that the points UY And how they could become unusable is between the owner and DVC to dispute not involve the renter. Just my take and I know I could be wrong.


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## cm8

LAX said:


> I am not talking about what has already happened.* I am just saying moving forward, contracts will need to be spelled out CLEARLY so that at least the owners should be shielded from any future risks*. If that puts an end to the rental market, then so be it. If I am no better off financially by renting than gifting to friends and family, then what's the point?
> 
> LAX



My Rental Contract already includes an extenuating circumstance clause....

In addition to what Ziranvan wrote, my contract specifically states the *******Member nor DVC/DVD will be held liable or responsible for any disasters, acts of God,accident or unforeseen event that may affect the reservation.*********

I’ve always included that clause and have never lost a rental because of it.

I will always make sure that my Renters are taken care of. I had a rental from April 11-15 booked and paid for. Even though the contract specifically states that I did not have to, I have in good faith refunded the Renter because it’s the right thing to do. I hope that once the dust settles and we get back to a new norm, they will one day remember that as a kind gesture and rent from me again.

Edited to add


----------



## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> Your points apply only to the owners who decide to not offer the refund and not help the renter,
> 
> You are missing the point that owners, like me, ARE willing to help the renter get a reservation that works for them by offering up the points used for another time.
> 
> I guess I am confused, especially as a renter, why you think the broker is the one who needs to be made whole.
> 
> If you knew your owner had offered you a refund, you Would not want it?  Or if your owner tells your broker they want to work with you and reschedule, would you want thst?
> 
> But, even so, if the contract doesn’t require an owner to return the funds, or offer the points, or it’s not clear that is their liability, then the courts are the way to do,
> 
> It is not Davids who gets to decide this outcome.  It is the owner, the renter and Davids,
> 
> I guarantee you that any renter out there right now who is facing a loss would JUMP at the chance to either get their money back or a new reservation right now vs, taking a voucher that they have no idea what that gives them,
> 
> The voucher option only benefits Davids in a situation where the owner is willing to help the renter, which is why he does t want any other deal to be done,
> 
> There are lots of ways he could be working to help owners and renter..and his business without making it a one size fits all approach.   He has chosen not to allow that because he doesn’t really care about the actual parties he put together, but just himself.



I would take a new reservation if that was offered but I’m very leery on the voucher as it seems very open ended. I would also work with the owner to help mitigate loss on their end.


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> As a renter I’m still of the opinion that a case can be made that the renter has very little fault in this other than maybe not buying insurance.
> 
> I know that my contract does not tell me if the points I’m renting are expiring in a month or a year. All I know is that I have rented valid points from an owner through David’s and that a reservation has been booked. In perfect times that is all I needed to know but these aren’t perfect times and I think that an argument could be made that the owner and David’s has fault for renting points so late into there UY and having a contract that does not address the closing of the resorts by the property management company (Disney Vacation Club) acting on behalf of the owner of the time share.
> 
> Can an owner explain why as a renter I shouldn’t feel like I’ve gotten the short end of the stick in this scenario?
> 
> I think that the points UY And how they could become unusable is between the owner and DVC to dispute not involve the renter. Just my take and I know I could be wrong.



Renters and owners are both potentially put in a bad situation. But, let me ask you, if you knew I, as an owners was willing to give the money back, but Davids is the one preventing it, and the gives you a voucher, how would you feel?


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## Marionnette

lovethesun12 said:


> This is exactly why David's offering is the best option. He has the entire pool of renters and owners. So if he has an owner who has points expiring in July, he can book the earliest reservations with those and the owners get their 30% back and are made whole. Then August, September, etc to best negate the damage. Then he also has a pool of cash he can draw on when it's impossible to rebook for scenarios like points expiring in March.
> 
> If you deal with every single individual contract, people who have points expiring in August for example may not have a renter that can return in August. It is much more likely David could have 1 person willing to travel in August if he has a shizload of renters to choose from.


Best for whom? The owner who has distressed points that are worth a fraction of what they were when the agreement was made? Or the renter who receives a yet-to-be-defined voucher that he may or may not be able to use based on the terms and conditions? No, this arrangement only favors David’s.

FWIW, David’s has already stated that they will not make reservations for the remainder of the summer. Forget booking July or August for your own renter or another one (if one could be found!). And owners cannot book non-home resorts before 7 months out, so goodbye to most of November thru the rest of Fall Frenzy as DVC owners book up their home resorts for their own trips with whatever availability they can find. If owners and renters could communicate directly, then they could try to work something out between them. Instead both are waiting for David’s to get around to contacting the renter, then contacting the owner who then gets back to David’s who then relays the owner’s response to the renter, who gets back to David’s, who then forwards that response to the owner, and so on. It’s a vicious circle.

What David’s is asking the owners to do is give the money they have received back to David’s, hope that David’s can match that owner with a renter again and do it before points expire and availability dries up. And you think that is fair to the owners, how?


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> I would take a new reservation if that was offered but I’m very leery on the voucher as it seems very open ended. I would also work with the owner to help mitigate loss on their end.



And, that is why some people have soured on Davids.  Owners are being told we are not supposed to try to help the renter they booked for out,  

Owners  are being prevented in helping the renters because Davids want the voucher option only,


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## DGsAtBLT

Kind of funny that all this time I was sure that if we rented it had to be through a reputable broker to lessen the risk, and in this scenario it seems like the private renters are for the most part better off.


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## DGsAtBLT

Has David’s stated publicly (or in something more than just individual communication) that they are not booking summer?


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## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> Renters and owners are both potentially put in a bad situation. But, let me ask you, if you knew I, as an owners was willing to give the money back, but Davids is the one preventing it, and the gives you a voucher, how would you feel?


I would not be happy with the middleman that we both decided to use and would think twice before ever using them again. If I could work out something with the owner I would as long as there was an agreement in place. I think that David’s could be doing a disservice to both parties if an owner has expressed that they are willing to work with the renter.


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## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> Renters and owners are both potentially put in a bad situation. But, let me ask you, if you knew I, as an owners was willing to give the money back, but Davids is the one preventing it, and the gives you a voucher, how would you feel?


Money back pleeeaaasssseeee


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> I would not be happy with the middleman that we both decided to use and would think twice before ever using them again. If I could work out something with the owner I would as long as there was an agreement in place. I think that David’s could be doing a disservice to both parties if an owner has expressed that they are willing to work with the renter.



I agree and I think renters who have a contract with Davids should be expressing to them that they are heading owners want to help and that he is preventing it,

As I have said, I have an August renter and if things are still an issue then, I will work directly with them, regardless of what is request of me at this point


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## lovethesun12

Marionnette said:


> Best for whom? The owner who has distressed points that are worth a fraction of what they were when the agreement was made? Or the renter who receives a yet-to-be-defined voucher that he may or may not be able to use based on the terms and conditions? No, this arrangement only favors David’s.
> 
> FWIW, David’s has already stated that they will not make reservations for the remainder of the summer. Forget booking July or August for your own renter or another one (if one could be found!). And owners cannot book non-home resorts before 7 months out, so goodbye to most of November thru the rest of Fall Frenzy as DVC owners book up their home resorts for their own trips with whatever availability they can find. If owners and renters could communicate directly, then they could try to work something out between them. Instead both are waiting for David’s to get around to contacting the renter, then contacting the owner who then gets back to David’s who then relays the owner’s response to the renter, who gets back to David’s, who then forwards that response to the owner, and so on. It’s a vicious circle.
> 
> What David’s is asking the owners to do is give the money they have received back to David’s, hope that David’s can match that owner with a renter again and do it before points expire and availability dries up. And you think that is fair to the owners, how?


If an owner has distressed points, I would think it is even more important they take the offer up of rebooking. They still have their 70% and they did not deliver on the contract (again, no one did which is why this is so debatable) . I would also ask questions in that case about what happens to their 30% if they are unable to rebook for certain.

To be specific, I think it benefits:
-owners who do not have distressed points because there are more potential renters (depending on expiry they can still keep their 70% and the option is there to be made whole)
-renters because there are more options for rebooking their stay and have an option for a non-refundable contract where their points are most likely still available in some capacity but could not be delivered at that specific time through no fault of anyone.


----------



## TS1998a

I reached out and rebooked my May renters, then sent David's an email. Finally got a response from them. It follows:

"We appreciate you reaching out to the C family to circumvent the long wait times and accommodate their need to move travel dates.


If you want to continue to work directly with the C family, you are more than welcome to do so on the condition that the C family confirm with us, via email, that they are in agreement to work directly with you, relieving David’s Vacation Club Rentals of any further compensation or assistance as this will become a private rental with directly with you. Once this is confirmed, we will promptly pay you the remaining 30%.

We will proceed to contact the C family now and upon receipt of approval from them, we will complete the agreement. Please respond with your acknowledgment."


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> If an owner has distressed points, I would think it is even more important they take the offer up of rebooking. They still have their 70% and they did not deliver on the contract (again, no one did which is why this is so debatable) . I would also ask questions in that case about what happens to their 30% if they are unable to rebook for certain.
> 
> To be specific, I think it benefits:
> -owners who do not have distressed points because there are more potential renters (depending on expiry they can still keep their 70% and the option is there to be made whole)
> -renters because there are more options for rebooking their stay and have an option for a non-refundable contract where their points are most likely still available in some capacity but could not be delivered at that specific time through no fault of anyone.



I agree with you that if an owner has distressed points and cant rebook the original renter, than sure, this offer might  make sense,

But, Davids wants it to be the only option.  For an owner like me, who used borrowed points..which means my renter would have a full 11 months to reschedule, why should he not be the first one who gets to use my points?

Or, if my renter can’t afford to go in the next few years, and I am willing to give back the money, and just keep the points, why should he not be offered it first? Why should Davids get it?


----------



## Marionnette

lovethesun12 said:


> If an owner has distressed points, I would think it is even more important they take the offer up of rebooking. They still have their 70% and they did not deliver on the contract (again, no one did which is why this is so debatable) . I would also ask questions in that case about what happens to their 30% if they are unable to rebook for certain.
> 
> To be specific, I think it benefits:
> -owners who do not have distressed points because there are more potential renters (depending on expiry they can still keep their 70% and the option is there to be made whole)
> -renters because there are more options for rebooking their stay and have an option for a non-refundable contract where their points are most likely still available in some capacity but not delivered.


Distressed points expire within the next 3 months. David’s is not accepting reservations that occur during the summer. Those distressed points WILL NOT GET RENTED OUT! They will expire. In fact, any points due to expire in the next 5 months (June - September use years) will go to waste before David’s will entertain the thought of attempting to re-rent. Owners who had points expiring in March and April are already screwed out of their points. In addition, any current UY points for owners who have June or August UYs are now locked into that UY because we are past the banking deadline for them. And if David’s doesn’t act soon, the Sept. UY points will also be affected.

You really don’t understand how DVC works.

BTW, owners do not have 70% of what the renter paid. They have 70% of what David’s owed them after David’s took their cut. That means that out of every $18-$19 per point paid by renters, David’s kept $4.50 per point for commission plus $4.05-$4.35 per point. That’s 46.7%-47.5% of what the renter paid that is still in David’s hands, not 30%.


----------



## ziravan

DGsAtBLT said:


> Kind of funny that all this time I was sure that if we rented it had to be through a reputable broker to lessen the risk, and in this scenario it seems like the private renters are for the most part better off.


A few private transaction owners are being jerks about it. In the main though, the private owners manage their own reservations in part BECAUSE they like the interaction with fellow Dis-ers. They already have relationships with their renters.

My one reservation that was booked in April was a repeat renter and we’ve already rebooked for September. I had even offered a refund if that would work better.

How can I afford to do that? Volume volume volume. No, JK. It’s the LACK of volume that lets me be more flexible. I didn’t have to figure out how to manage 5,000 reservations, just one.

THAT to me is why David’s should employ that personal obligation that owners might feel towards their particular renter to make things right. IF I WERE an owner working through David’s, I’d feel just as responsible to make things right for my own renter as I did as a private owner. Making things right for David’s or some other renter? Literally not my problem, either contractually or ethically.


----------



## tallguy001

David should simply have some staff dedicated to collecting the following information:


Renters who would like to contact the owner
Owners who would like to contact the renter

If there is a match, put them together to work it out. Pay out the 30% to the owner and wash their hands of that particular situation.


----------



## DVCindy

tallguy001 said:


> David should simply have some staff dedicated to collecting the following information:
> 
> 
> Renters who would like to contact the owner
> Owners who would like to contact the renter
> 
> If there is a match, put them together to work it out. Pay out the 30% to the owner and wash their hands of that particular situation.



I agree.   I just sent a 3rd email to David's again requesting that they provide us with this option.  I am ready, willing, and able to rebook a reservation for my April renters, and the more time that passes, the less options my renters will have as far as resort availability.  I'm very frustrated and unfortunately have 2 more contracts with them for other renters with May and June reservations.


----------



## CraigInPA

TS1998a said:


> I reached out and rebooked my May renters, then sent David's an email. Finally got a response from them. It follows:
> 
> "We appreciate you reaching out to the C family to circumvent the long wait times and accommodate their need to move travel dates.
> 
> If you want to continue to work directly with the C family, you are more than welcome to do so on the condition that the C family confirm with us, via email, that they are in agreement to work directly with you, relieving David’s Vacation Club Rentals of any further compensation or assistance as this will become a private rental with directly with you. Once this is confirmed, we will promptly pay you the remaining 30%.
> 
> We will proceed to contact the C family now and upon receipt of approval from them, we will complete the agreement. Please respond with your acknowledgment."



I'm absolutely floored by that response from David's. 

They're basically saying that if you, as the owner, reach out and help your renter, that David's will not be paying the final 30% due on check in day! 

That is the most outrageous thing they've done yet, and I didn't think they could top what they already had done!


----------



## lovethesun12

Sandisw said:


> But, Davids wants it to be the only option.  For an owner like me, who used borrowed points..which means my renter would have a full 11 months to reschedule, why should he not be the first one who gets to use my points?
> 
> Or, if my renter can’t afford to go in the next few years, and I am willing to give back the money, and just keep the points, why should he not be offered it first? Why should Davids get it?


Lets put it this way. I have a rental for this summer  - lets pretend that I rented from you. I want to rebook an October stay so you have the chance to offer me a refund and honestly that would be great for the both of us so I take it and book my stay for October direct with Disney.

Here is why I don't think it's the best case. The contract next to us could have points expiring in November, and a rental who can only travel Christmas.

Through David, I would rebook my stay to October, the other renter book Christmas and are both made whole. You would receive your 100% by Christmas and the other owner theirs by October. Everyone is happy.

Through the scenario where you refund me, all is good but really we don't owe each other that because we both directly dealt with David. Meanwhile, the other owner is upset because they are only walking away with 70% of the agreed price and the renter walks away with potentially nothing.

But I digress. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this 


Marionnette said:


> Distressed points expire within the next 3 months. David’s is not accepting reservations that occur during the summer. Those distressed points WILL NOT GET RENTED OUT! They will expire. In fact, any points due to expire in the next 5 months (June - September use years) will go to waste before David’s will entertain the thought of attempting to re-rent. Owners who had points expiring in March and April are already screwed out of their points. In addition, any current UY points for owners who have June or August UYs are now locked into that UY because we are past the banking deadline for them. And if David’s doesn’t act soon, the Sept. UY points will also be affected.
> 
> You really don’t understand how DVC works.
> 
> BTW, owners do not have 70% of what the renter paid. They have 70% of what David’s owed them after David’s took their cut. That means that out of every $18-$19 per point paid by renters, David’s kept $4.50 per point plus $4.05-$4.35 per point. That’s 46.7%-47.5% of what the renter paid that is still in David’s hands, not 30%.


Why do you not think I understand how DVC works? Nothing in your explanation was anything I didn't already know. In the case of those owners I would ask those questions as well. They are valid questions.

I also realize that the entire 70% does not go to the owner. Why would anyone work for free?


----------



## Sandisw

TS1998a said:


> I reached out and rebooked my May renters, then sent David's an email. Finally got a response from them. It follows:
> 
> "We appreciate you reaching out to the C family to circumvent the long wait times and accommodate their need to move travel dates.
> 
> 
> If you want to continue to work directly with the C family, you are more than welcome to do so on the condition that the C family confirm with us, via email, that they are in agreement to work directly with you, relieving David’s Vacation Club Rentals of any further compensation or assistance as this will become a private rental with directly with you. Once this is confirmed, we will promptly pay you the remaining 30%.
> 
> We will proceed to contact the C family now and upon receipt of approval from them, we will complete the agreement. Please respond with your acknowledgment."



Now, see, he should have sent this out to all owners first, and gotten them to reach out to the renter, and work it out.  It would have saved him a lot of headaches,

Glad to know he realized this needed to happen, especially since it allows him to keep his commission.


----------



## Marionnette

VeroGuy said:


> As a renter I’m still of the opinion that a case can be made that the renter has very little fault in this other than maybe not buying insurance.
> 
> I know that my contract does not tell me if the points I’m renting are expiring in a month or a year. All I know is that I have rented valid points from an owner through David’s and that a reservation has been booked. In perfect times that is all I needed to know but these aren’t perfect times and I think that an argument could be made that the owner and David’s has fault for renting points so late into there UY and having a contract that does not address the closing of the resorts by the property management company (Disney Vacation Club) acting on behalf of the owner of the time share.
> 
> Can an owner explain why as a renter I shouldn’t feel like I’ve gotten the short end of the stick in this scenario?
> 
> I think that the points UY And how they could become unusable is between the owner and DVC to dispute not involve the renter. Just my take and I know I could be wrong.


Owner here. And FWIW, I believe there are three “ends” to this stick and you’re getting one of the shorter ones. You’re being offered a voucher, instead of a confirmed reservation, regardless of the status of the owner’s points. That voucher may or may not be worthless in the long run. Only time will tell. I would be upset and frustrated if I were in your position. However, I would not be directing my irritation at the owners. They’re getting the other short end.


----------



## DVCindy

DVCindy said:


> I agree.   I just sent a 3rd email to David's again requesting that they provide us with this option.  I am ready, willing, and able to rebook a reservation for my April renters, and the more time that passes, the less options my renters will have as far as resort availability.  I'm very frustrated and unfortunately have 2 more contracts with them for other renters with May and June reservations.



Well.... that was the fastest reply ever!  

I received the following  response: _" It is not advised to contact the guests directly as we are working on the travel credit on our end.  As the intermediary, it is outside of our agreement to have you contact the guests directly."_

So, l feel they are forcing the travel credit as the only means of resolution even when an owner has the ability to rebook travel.


----------



## Marionnette

Sandisw said:


> Now, see, he should have sent this out to all owners first, and gotten them to reach out to the renter, and work it out.  It would have saved him a lot of headaches,
> 
> Glad to know he realized this needed to happen, especially since it allows him to keep his commission.


Just spitballing here, but do you suppose that David’s was fearful that if owners and renters begin contacting each other without going thru David’s, they might lose repeat customers in the future? What would prevent owners from directly contacting those renters when they have excess points later on? Or what stops the renter from reaching out to the owner to refer a friend for a rental rather than sending that friend to David’s?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

CraigInPA said:


> I'm absolutely floored by that response from David's.
> 
> They're basically saying that if you, as the owner, reach out and help your renter, that David's will not be paying the final 30% due on check in day!
> 
> That is the most outrageous thing they've done yet, and I didn't think they could top what they already had done!



Am I reading it wrong? I thought it’s the opposite, that they’re saying once it’s confirmed the renters will work with the owner directly Davids will pay out the 30% and wash their hands of that case.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Marionnette said:


> Just spitballing here, but do you suppose that David’s was fearful that if owners and renters begin contacting each other without going thru David’s, they might lose repeat customers in the future? What would prevent owners from directly contacting those renters when they have excess points later on? Or what stops the renter from reaching out to the owner to refer a friend for a rental rather than sending that friend to David’s?



My guess is thats absolutely playing a part as well as worry it blows back on them if conversations or future rentals turn sour.


----------



## ziravan

Marionnette said:


> Just spitballing here, but do you suppose that David’s was fearful that if owners and renters begin contacting each other without going thru David’s, they might lose repeat customers in the future? What would prevent owners from directly contacting those renters when they have excess points later on? Or what stops the renter from reaching out to the owner to refer a friend for a rental rather than sending that friend to David’s?


He should be more concerned with solving the current crisis than protecting his future business model.

Said differently, screwing over both his current owners and renters is doing more to damage his future business model than whatever lost business from owners and renters making direct connection, and I believe that could be significant. It’s just not MORE significant than the ongoing slaughter of trust occurring right now.


----------



## tallguy001

Marionnette said:


> Just spitballing here, but do you suppose that David’s was fearful that if owners and renters begin contacting each other without going thru David’s, they might lose repeat customers in the future? What would prevent owners from directly contacting those renters when they have excess points later on? Or what stops the renter from reaching out to the owner to refer a friend for a rental rather than sending that friend to David’s?



Maybe, but shortsighted. No chance these owners or renters will use this “service” again if they are being treated like this now.


----------



## Amymouse13

DGsAtBLT said:


> Am I reading it wrong? I thought it’s the opposite, that they’re saying once it’s confirmed the renters will work with the owner directly Davids will pay out the 30% and wash their hands of that case.



That's what I read too... If you both agree to void your contracts with David's, they will bow out and you guys are on your own.  Though the risk is obviously Disney stays closed a long time and you can't accommodate renter and now have no middle man.  The renters only recourse is now against you.  But I digress as no one knows when Disney will reopen.


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> Just spitballing here, but do you suppose that David’s was fearful that if owners and renters begin contacting each other without going thru David’s, they might lose repeat customers in the future? What would prevent owners from directly contacting those renters when they have excess points later on? Or what stops the renter from reaching out to the owner to refer a friend for a rental rather than sending that friend to David’s?



Maybe, and a new post from someone seems to indicate they do not want owners to do it,

So, the fact that someone already rescheduled the renter, they were stuck letting it become a private transaction,

But, when it’s still in place, he doesnt want owners to do it.  I went from maybe he is trying to back to my initial feelings


----------



## Sandisw

DVCindy said:


> Well.... that was the fastest reply ever!
> 
> I received the following  response: _" It is not advised to contact the guests directly as we are working on the travel credit on our end.  As the intermediary, it is outside of our agreement to have you contact the guests directly."_
> 
> So, l feel they are forcing the travel credit as the only means of resolution even when an owner has the ability to rebook travel.



Yup, and that puts the owner and the renter at a disadvantage.  If it were me, I’d still reach out, rebook the renter, and tell Davids it’s set, and you’d like your 30% and will have the renter let them know they are waiving right to relief from Davids,

But that is Mel


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Funny how he is changing his tune - I reached out to him about my April renter - he contacted the renter and told the renter I was willing to rebook them - I had also myself contacted the renter to inquire about if they were going or rebook (this was before the resort closed) - the renter indicated they were not going and would like to rebook - David's did contact the renter and informed the renter I was willing to rebook - from there the emails from David's have not addressed any questions from the Renter and have been the standard replies - His communications seem to be dependent upon whom you speak to at his organization and when you speak to them - one day it is one thing from one person - next day something different from someone else.
I pretty much figure I am not going to see my 30% on this April Rental - it is not a lot of points and I would feel bad if the Renter lost out - but the other two rentals I have with him - NOPE not happening - If this crap keeps up - I will contact the Renters and advise them that the reservation will be cancelled and they should demand their money back and proceed with a charge back. Any way anyone wants to slice this pie - David's entered into contracts and has taken it upon himself without checking with the other parties to said contracts and has CHANGED just about everything in the contract - Yup lets all end up in court trying to straighten out this mess in a few years - ain't no one got time for that! David's has succeeded in taking a bad situation and making it all the more stressful and worse for everyone. Please refer back to his advertising about how he would take all the risk and we could rest assured! I know I don't feel very well rested - Anyone??


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> Funny how he is changing his tune - I reached out to him about my April renter - he contacted the renter and told the renter I was willing to rebook them - I had also myself contacted the renter to inquire about if they were going or rebook (this was before the resort closed) - the renter indicated they were not going and would like to rebook - David's did contact the renter and informed the renter I was willing to rebook - from there the emails from David's have not addressed any questions from the Renter and have been the standard replies - His communications seem to be dependent upon whom you speak to at his organization and when you speak to them - one day it is one thing from one person - next day something different from someone else.
> I pretty much figure I am not going to see my 30% on this April Rental - it is not a lot of points and I would feel bad if the Renter lost out - but the other two rentals I have with him - NOPE not happening - If this crap keeps up - I will contact the Renters and advise them that the reservation will be cancelled and they should demand their money back and proceed with a charge back. Any way anyone wants to slice this pie - David's entered into contracts and has taken it upon himself without checking with the other parties to said contracts and has CHANGED just about everything in the contract - Yup lets all end up in court trying to straighten out this mess in a few years - ain't no one got time for that! David's has succeeded in taking a bad situation and making it all the more stressful and worse for everyone. Please refer back to his advertising about how he would take all the risk and we could rest assured! I know I don't feel very well rested - Anyone??



Exactly how I feel,  If you are going to return funds, sending an email to the renter saying you canceled, entitles them to cash back,

I also do not like that he has decide to change, as you say, basically all terms that work in his favor, even when it could be to the detriment of that particular owner and renter,


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> Exactly how I feel,  If you are going to return funds, sending an email to the renter saying you canceled, entitles them to cash back,
> 
> I also do not like that he has decide to change, as you say, basically all terms that work in his favor, even when it could be to the detriment of that particular owner and renter,



It's cool, I didn't agree to him changing the contract.  I'll be sure to supply that to credit card folks when they ask (if).


----------



## Grnl706

How are people finding the contact information for the renter or owner?

I'm a renter and I would love to reach out to the owner just to find out the status of their points or to have a way to let them know I would like to work with them. I don't trust David's or want to wait for them for my June reservation. I know I need to reschedule, I know my dates, I just want to be done. If they can't re-schedule, I would want to try to work something out so we both don't completely lose out. This voucher just does not make sense to me.

If I rent points again, I think I'd much rather work directly with someone. This has been a lot of stress for us, sorry for the mini rant!


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Grnl706 said:


> How are people finding the contact information for the renter or owner?
> 
> I'm a renter and I would love to reach out to the owner just to find out the status of their points or to have a way to let them know I would like to work with them. I don't trust David's or want to wait for them for my June reservation. I know I need to reschedule, I know my dates, I just want to be done. If they can't re-schedule, I would want to try to work something out so we both don't completely lose out. This voucher just does not make sense to me.
> 
> If I rent points again, I think I'd much rather work directly with someone. This has been a lot of stress for us, sorry for the mini rant!



As a renter all we have is the name, and it’s found in the contract you would have been sent upon booking. Only helpful if your owners name is not super common and they are easily found online (like on Facebook).

The owner has all your contact info.


----------



## Sammie

Sandisw said:


> *I agree and I think renters who have a contract with Davids should be expressing to them that they are hearing owners want to help and that he is preventing it,*
> 
> As I have said, I have an August renter and if things are still an issue then, I will work directly with them, regardless of what is request of me at this point



Some renters have expressed that on Facebook, that some owners want to refund to the renter and he is deleting those comments. Most comments that are being left are ones praising them for the voucher option.


----------



## Yinn

Grnl706 said:


> How are people finding the contact information for the renter or owner?
> 
> I'm a renter and I would love to reach out to the owner just to find out the status of their points or to have a way to let them know I would like to work with them. I don't trust David's or want to wait for them for my June reservation. I know I need to reschedule, I know my dates, I just want to be done. If they can't re-schedule, I would want to try to work something out so we both don't completely lose out. This voucher just does not make sense to me.
> 
> If I rent points again, I think I'd much rather work directly with someone. This has been a lot of stress for us, sorry for the mini rant!



Mine found me on the “Rental Agreement” email. It was sent to the both of us and had my email address on it.

My updates:
- I contacted Davids to check if my renters reached out.  They said nope sit tight. 
- Renters contacted me, told me they sent an email to Davids but haven’t heard back. Asked if they could move the date.
- I informed them, I hadn’t been contacted to rebook and told them I’d be happy to.
- I contacted Davids and offered to rebook or refund my renter if it didn’t work for my UY. They told me to sit tight because they’re working it out with my renter. 
- I forwarded the email to my renter, they called BS. They haven’t been contacted. 
- I contacted Davids again asking to just cancel and refund. Was told to sit tight....


----------



## Amymouse13

Yinn said:


> Mine found me on the “Rental Agreement” email. It was sent to the both of us and had my email address on it.
> 
> My updates:
> - I contacted Davids to check if my renters reached out.  They said nope sit tight.
> - Renters contacted me, told me they sent an email to Davids but haven’t heard back. Asked if they could move the date.
> - I informed them, I hadn’t been contacted to rebook and told them I’d be happy to.
> - I contacted Davids and offered to rebook or refund my renter if it didn’t work for my UY. They told me to sit tight because they’re working it out with my renter.
> - I forwarded the email to my renter, they called BS. They haven’t been contacted.
> - I contacted Davids again asking to just cancel and refund. Was told to sit tight....


Tell me lies tell me sweet little lies...


----------



## skatalite

I've been trying to make sense of everything that's going on as of right now but I'm worried what we know now will change in the future.

We have a 9-night OKW stay booked through David's for late November/early December so we're not feeling the pressure to try to find an alternate option just yet, but my parents are elderly and have pre-existing conditions that are causing them to wonder if we should try to reschedule it for 2021. Hopefully they're happy sitting tight for a few more months to see where the world is at at that time.


----------



## Grnl706

Yinn said:


> Mine found me on the “Rental Agreement” email. It was sent to the both of us and had my email address on it.
> 
> My updates:
> - I contacted Davids to check if my renters reached out.  They said nope sit tight.
> - Renters contacted me, told me they sent an email to Davids but haven’t heard back. Asked if they could move the date.
> - I informed them, I hadn’t been contacted to rebook and told them I’d be happy to.
> - I contacted Davids and offered to rebook or refund my renter if it didn’t work for my UY. They told me to sit tight because they’re working it out with my renter.
> - I forwarded the email to my renter, they called BS. They haven’t been contacted.
> - I contacted Davids again asking to just cancel and refund. Was told to sit tight....


It looks like the person that did my reservation either blind Cc'd the owner or didn't include them for mine  Worth a shot though, thank you for that. I didn't think to even look.


----------



## Grnl706

DGsAtBLT said:


> As a renter all we have is the name, and it’s found in the contract you would have been sent upon booking. Only helpful if your owners name is not super common and they are easily found online (like on Facebook).
> 
> The owner has all your contact info.


Just did a quick search. Someone came up but I have no idea if it is actually the owner or not. I honestly am to the point of just sending a Facebook message and apologizing for being intrusive and see if they are indeed the owner or not.


----------



## Marionnette

Grnl706 said:


> Just did a quick search. Someone came up but I have no idea if it is actually the owner or not. I honestly am to the point of just sending a Facebook message and apologizing for being intrusive and see if they are indeed the owner or not.


If they own at one of the WDW resorts, the deed should have been recorded on the Orange County comptroller’s website. The deed may have the owner’s physical address included on their deed. If it matches up with their FB profile, you may have a match.


----------



## Galun

Marionnette said:


> If they own at one of the WDW resorts, the deed should have been recorded on the Orange County comptroller’s website. The deed may have the owner’s physical address included on their deed. If it matches up with their FB profile, you may have a match.



Put the owner‘s name into the grantee search box. If it’s a direct you should find one record, if it’s a resale you should find two. One has disney vacation management as grantor - that’s either the actual deed, or waiving right of first refusal of a resale.  The other will have people’s name(s) as grantor - that’s the actual deed of a resale.

The deed should have the address of the owner when they bought.  Check that against their Facebook profile, or just google name and address.  You can likely find an email.

If you are a renter, be upfront with how you found their contact - tell them you looked up the deed and put it together.  I’d think most owners will understand and willing to help if they can.  But also realize that some owners bought a long time ago, stopped going when their kids grow up or whatever, and rented out points to pay their maintenance fees.  They may have their own issues as well.

As owners we are all aware of what’s happening.  At the very least, I think the owner can help you search for availability / possible rebook dates, since you can’t do it as a renter.  If both parties can work out a deal and notify David’s, it looks like they will step out as an intermediary and pay out the 30% to the owner.  Then it’s a win win win situation - renter rebooked, owner gets 30%, David’s keeps commission.  If the owner tells you the points are close to expiration, then you as a renter should just proceed with a chargeback. 

https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/


----------



## ziravan

Grnl706 said:


> Just did a quick search. Someone came up but I have no idea if it is actually the owner or not. I honestly am to the point of just sending a Facebook message and apologizing for being intrusive and see if they are indeed the owner or not.


Run the owner’s name through Orange County Comptroller and see if you can use that info to figure out your owners hometown from the deed:

https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/


----------



## Grnl706

Galun said:


> Put the owner‘s name into the grantee search box. If it’s a direct you should find one record, if it’s a resale you should find two. One has disney vacation management as grantor - that’s either the actual deed, or waiving right of first refusal of a resale.  The other will have people’s name(s) as grantor - that’s the actual deed.
> 
> The deed should have the address of the owner when they bought.  Check that against their Facebook profile, or just google name and address.  You can likely find an email.
> 
> If you are a remeter, be upfront with how you found their contact - tell them you looked up the deed and put it together.  I’d think most owners will understand and willing to help if they can.  But also realize that some owners bought a long time ago, stopped going when their kids grow up or whatever, and rented out points to pay their maintenance fees.  They may have their own issues as well.
> 
> https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/


I cannot thank you all enough for this tip. I need a bit of help understanding, if you don't mind.

Found the owner, and if I am reading this right, someone ELSE is the Grantor as of last July (2 weeks before my rental agreement) and the owner on my reservation is the Grantee. If I'm understanding this right, I think they sold some of their points? Do have even more to worry about? 

Also, my owner is in Canada, I'm struggling to find anything.


----------



## Galun

Grnl706 said:


> I cannot thank you all enough for this tip. I need a bit of help understanding, if you don't mind.
> 
> Found the owner, and if I am reading this right, someone ELSE is the Grantor as of last July (2 weeks before my rental agreement) and the owner on my reservation is the Grantee. If I'm understanding this right, I think they sold some of their points? Do have even more to worry about?
> 
> Also, my owner is in Canada, I'm struggling to find anything.



The owner is the grantee.  They bought the contract on a resale from the grantor last July.  You do not have to worry about the grantor.

you should see another record with Disney vacation management as the grantor, and both the owner and the seller as the grantee.  That’s Disney waiving their right of first refusal to both parties.

Even if you can’t find a Facebook profile or email, I guess worse case you can write a letter, and it may get forwarded even if they have moved.  Good luck.


----------



## poofyo101

DGsAtBLT said:


> Kind of funny that all this time I was sure that if we rented it had to be through a reputable broker to lessen the risk, and in this scenario it seems like the private renters are for the most part better off.


I have been saying this. Better to find a reputable person to rent from. Way easier to change stuff and be accommodating. The ease of communication is probably the most important factor


----------



## CarolynFH

Yinn said:


> Mine found me on the “Rental Agreement” email. It was sent to the both of us and had my email address on it.
> 
> My updates:
> - I contacted Davids to check if my renters reached out.  They said nope sit tight.
> - Renters contacted me, told me they sent an email to Davids but haven’t heard back. Asked if they could move the date.
> - I informed them, I hadn’t been contacted to rebook and told them I’d be happy to.
> - I contacted Davids and offered to rebook or refund my renter if it didn’t work for my UY. They told me to sit tight because they’re working it out with my renter.
> - I forwarded the email to my renter, they called BS. They haven’t been contacted.
> - I contacted Davids again asking to just cancel and refund. Was told to sit tight....


Ha! If I were you, and of course I’m not, I’d rebook the renter and then notify David’s. Per an earlier post (that I’m too lazy to find right now) David will require the renter to agree and will then pay you the missing 30%.

ETA - Found it!
https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...rsement-or-rescheduling.3796922/post-61744203


----------



## lovethesun12

Interesting. First I saw of this..I might have considered renting direct if I knew about it. Anyway, I looked up my owner hoping I might figure out if the use year meant I would have a better chance of changing dates....They have 15 deeds. Living my dream life =)


----------



## Marionnette

Yinn said:


> Mine found me on the “Rental Agreement” email. It was sent to the both of us and had my email address on it.
> 
> My updates:
> - I contacted Davids to check if my renters reached out.  They said nope sit tight.
> - Renters contacted me, told me they sent an email to Davids but haven’t heard back. Asked if they could move the date.
> - I informed them, I hadn’t been contacted to rebook and told them I’d be happy to.
> - I contacted Davids and offered to rebook or refund my renter if it didn’t work for my UY. They told me to sit tight because they’re working it out with my renter.
> - I forwarded the email to my renter, they called BS. They haven’t been contacted.
> - I contacted Davids again asking to just cancel and refund. Was told to sit tight....


I honestly don’t understand why David’s is so against owners contacting the renters and ironing out an arrangement that works for both parties. The owners get their points used. The renter gets to reschedule their trip with no negative repercussions and David’s gets to keep their commission with no fear of charge backs or the hassle of issuing another voucher which just complicates accounting. Unless...David’s doesn’t want to pay the balanced owed to the owners so that they can improve their cash flow. This just reaffirms my belief that David’s has no interest in doing what is right by the owners or the renters. David’s is only interested in doing what benefits David’s.

Sorry. But as a small business owner I know the value of making my clients happy, sometimes at the expense of my balance sheet. Because above all else, I know that a happy client will tell 5 people what a wonderful business you run  but an unhappy client is going to tell the whole internet what a ******** you are.


----------



## StitchesGr8Fan

We haven’t been impacted by this, but have used David’s in the past on both sides of the fence. I don’t think we will ever use them again after this. Not because I think we are at risk of another extended closure. Simply out of principle.  And I think enough people feel the same way that it may put a huge dent in the business, of not ultimately close it all together. I feel bad for the people that work there who aren’t the decision makers.


----------



## Amymouse13

Grnl706 said:


> I cannot thank you all enough for this tip. I need a bit of help understanding, if you don't mind.
> 
> Found the owner, and if I am reading this right, someone ELSE is the Grantor as of last July (2 weeks before my rental agreement) and the owner on my reservation is the Grantee. If I'm understanding this right, I think they sold some of their points? Do have even more to worry about?
> 
> Also, my owner is in Canada, I'm struggling to find anything.



Very cool I found one of my owners, the other's address is some timeshare LLC thing.  His name is way too common so shrugs.


----------



## starry_solo

Amymouse13 said:


> Very cool I found one of my owners, the other's address is some timeshare LLC thing.  His name is way too common so shrugs.



Do you have an address?


----------



## Amymouse13

starry_solo said:


> Do you have an address?


I'm not mailing a letter to a LLC... Both of my mid April reservations got cancelled, probably by owners, which is great.  I messaged the one to just be aware what's going on here.  Since they are cancelled I'm in a different boat I guess?


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Galun said:


> Put the owner‘s name into the grantee search box. If it’s a direct you should find one record, if it’s a resale you should find two. One has disney vacation management as grantor - that’s either the actual deed, or waiving right of first refusal of a resale.  The other will have people’s name(s) as grantor - that’s the actual deed of a resale.
> 
> The deed should have the address of the owner when they bought.  Check that against their Facebook profile, or just google name and address.  You can likely find an email.
> 
> https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/


I just tried this with my own contract out of interest.It shows my address as c/o Disney Vacation Inc, Celebration. I wonder if this is because I’m in the UK.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Someone posted this link on a Facebook group and it seems that depending on the contract the owner(if renting privately) or David’s are allowed to insist that they are not to blame and insist that they have a no refund policy.

According to David’s contracts David’s is not liable for any operation changes by DVC (including the phrase not limited to clause)

Since DVC closed the resorts IMO that would be an operational change - right?

The contract does not address what will happen if the room can’t be delivered due to no fault of David’s but since David’s is not liable for operational changes aren’t they still covered?

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/hurricane-ruined-vacation-rental-65359.html


----------



## meryll83

Anyone know if there’s a comptroller to verify Disneyland VGC ownerships?


----------



## momincolorado

Cyberc1978 said:


> Someone posted this link on a Facebook group and it seems that depending on the contract the owner(if renting privately) or David’s are allowed to insist that they are not to blame and insist that they have a no refund policy.
> 
> According to David’s contracts David’s is not liable for any operation changes by DVC (including the phrase not limited to clause)
> 
> Since DVC closed the resorts IMO that would be an operational change - right?
> 
> The contract does not address what will happen if the room can’t be delivered due to no fault of David’s but since David’s is not liable for operational changes aren’t they still covered?
> 
> https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/hurricane-ruined-vacation-rental-65359.html



I got the sense that they will be using it to fight any cc chargebacks. The exact wording of the clause reads:

“David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, playgrounds, and other amenities controlled by the Resort...While Disney might offer you access to alternate amenities, David’s Vacation Club Rentals assumes no responsibility for situations that are not under its control.”

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Would this cover them?


----------



## JasonV

The agreement also says this:
The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $xxxx US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation

If the reservation is cancelled by Disney would it not make this contact null and void?


----------



## McCrae

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I just tried this with my own contract out of interest.It shows my address as c/o Disney Vacation Inc, Celebration. I wonder if this is because I’m in the UK.


same here,


----------



## Cyberc1978

JasonV said:


> The agreement also says this:
> The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $xxxx US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation
> 
> If the reservation is cancelled by Disney would it not make this contact null and void?


If the clause applies to the current situation then it does not matter if Disney cancelled or not. According to the link I provided a judge will side with the owner if we assume the above clause covers this situation.

question is does the clause covers this situation or not?


----------



## starry_solo

meryll83 said:


> Anyone know if there’s a comptroller to verify Disneyland VGC ownerships?



look in orange county California for The recorders office. That’s what they call it here in CA. You can do the same grantor grantee search


----------



## Amymouse13

momincolorado said:


> I got the sense that they will be using it to fight any cc chargebacks. The exact wording of the clause reads:
> 
> “David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, playgrounds, and other amenities controlled by the Resort...While Disney might offer you access to alternate amenities, David’s Vacation Club Rentals assumes no responsibility for situations that are not under its control.”
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Would this cover them?



In my opinion this references amenities such as pools and restaurants, this doesn't seem to reference lodging not being available.  But I'm sure they are going to argue.  The sentence appears limited to amenities not presence of a room.  A room isn't an amenity.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Amymouse13 said:


> In my opinion this references amenities such as pools and restaurants, this doesn't seem to reference lodging not being available.  But I'm sure they are going to argue.  The sentence appears limited to amenities not presence of a room.  A room isn't an amenity.



well, he’ll focus on the, “David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel,” part. 

Then again, the contract also states that the renter was renting points from an owner. In the scenarios that we are discussing, that part didn’t happen either.


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

momincolorado said:


> I got the sense that they will be using it to fight any cc chargebacks. The exact wording of the clause reads:
> 
> “David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, playgrounds, and other amenities controlled by the Resort...While Disney might offer you access to alternate amenities, David’s Vacation Club Rentals assumes no responsibility for situations that are not under its control.”
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Would this cover them?



I think this clause is meant to limit liability if Disney closes a specific part of the resort....ie you book BCV for June and they shut down Stormalong Bay or if for some reason they need to take the animals off the Savannah for the duration of your AKL stay.  I could also see it covering if you booked AKV Jambo and due to a maintenance issue, like a burst pipe, they moved you to Kadini (or another comparable option).  I'd be surprised though if shutting down the entire WDW complex due to Covid-19 would stand up as a legal "operational change" that frees David's of all legal responsibility.


----------



## Amymouse13

I think a judge might also see what other industries are doing... 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christ...-if-i-cancel-my-vacation-coronavirus-edition/
In most of these if the operator cancels a refund is due, probably as the service was not rendered.  Though who in this case is liable is dicey, but the renter only has contract with David's and especially since they are asking for cash refunds from owners super shady to only offer voucher without inherent value (unlike a Disney gift card).


----------



## Krandor

Interesting addition.  Airlines are trying to do the travel vouchers thing and dot has said they must do refunds. Of course they are regulated differently then somethjng like this but interesting In this case travel vouchers are said to be a no go 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...unds-flights-canceled-delayed-dot/2941262001/


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

Krandor said:


> Interesting addition.  Airlines are trying to do the travel vouchers thing and dot has said they must do refunds. Of course they are regulated differently then somethjng like this but interesting In this case travel vouchers are said to be a no go
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...unds-flights-canceled-delayed-dot/2941262001/



The Canadian version of the DOT recently ruled the opposite on the subject of vouchers versus refunds.  They said the airlines can issue vouchers in lieu of cash refunds, even in situations where flights are cancelled or tickets were refundable.  They did have to make the expiration of the vouchers "reasonable", which I think they settled on 24 months.  Since Davids is based in Canada not sure where any litigation would actually have to be initiated.  But if in Canada that type of ruling probably doesn't help renters trying to obtain full  refunds. 

For any renter who has been offered a voucher, what is the expiration date (if there is one)?  Apologies if this has been answered upstream.


----------



## Sandisw

Cyberc1978 said:


> Someone posted this link on a Facebook group and it seems that depending on the contract the owner(if renting privately) or David’s are allowed to insist that they are not to blame and insist that they have a no refund policy.
> 
> According to David’s contracts David’s is not liable for any operation changes by DVC (including the phrase not limited to clause)
> 
> Since DVC closed the resorts IMO that would be an operational change - right?
> 
> The contract does not address what will happen if the room can’t be delivered due to no fault of David’s but since David’s is not liable for operational changes aren’t they still covered?
> 
> https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/hurricane-ruined-vacation-rental-65359.html



The line with operational changes discusses amenities of the resort and to be honest, I don’t think it is enough for anyone to have assumed that covered resort closure.  I certainly never did when I entered into the contract as an owner,

That implied to me that the renter couldn’t claim they had a right to get out if the pool was closed, etc,

The fact that he has come up with the travel voucher does lead me to believe he got some legal advice that his contract may not have what it needs to take that stance,


----------



## Amymouse13

chicagodisneyguy said:


> The Canadian version of the DOT recently ruled the opposite on the subject of vouchers versus refunds.  They said the airlines can issue vouchers in lieu of cash refunds, even in situations where flights are cancelled or tickets were refundable.  They did have to make the expiration of the vouchers "reasonable", which I think they settled on 24 months.  Since Davids is based in Canada not sure where any litigation would actually have to be initiated.  But if in Canada that type of ruling probably doesn't help renters trying to obtain full  refunds.
> 
> For any renter who has been offered a voucher, what is the expiration date (if there is one)?  Apologies if this has been answered upstream.



They are diligently working out a plan for their voucher program... Lol.  No one knows.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Sure they are - I’ve got a bridge in NY for sale too!! I’ve got more.,..


----------



## momincolorado

chicagodisneyguy said:


> I think this clause is meant limit liability if Disney closes a specific part of the resort....ie you book BCV for June and they shut down Stormalong Bay or if for some reason they need to take the animals off the Savannah for the duration of your AKL stay.  I could also see it covering if you booked AKV Jambo and due to a maintenance issue, like a burst pipe, they moved you to Kadini (or another comparable option).  I'd be surprised though if shutting down the entire WDW complex due to Covid-19 would stand up as a legal "operational change" that frees David's of all legal responsibility.



That’s how I’m reading it as well. In other words, if you show up and the pool is closed, restaurant onsite undergoing refurb etc - not their problem, they are covered. But closure of the entire resort resulting in no place to stay would be property/services not delivered.


----------



## momincolorado

Amymouse13 said:


> They are diligently working out a plan for their voucher program... Lol.  No one knows.



And it’s top secret and must not be questioned (or any clarification requested) via social media What a great company!


----------



## Cyberc1978

Sandisw said:


> The line with operational changes discusses amenities of the resort and to be honest, I don’t think it is enough for anyone to have assumed that covered resort closure.  I certainly never did when I entered into the contract as an owner,
> 
> That implied to me that the renter couldn’t claim they had a right to get out if the pool was closed, etc,
> 
> The fact that he has come up with the travel voucher does lead me to believe he got some legal advice that his contract may not have what it needs to take that stance,



I dont know what it covers, but to me “operational changes“ can be a lot of things and as stated “this would include but is not limited to“ basically this means to me any operational changes made by DVC.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Amymouse13 said:


> In my opinion this references amenities such as pools and restaurants, this doesn't seem to reference lodging not being available.  But I'm sure they are going to argue.  The sentence appears limited to amenities not presence of a room.  A room isn't an amenity.


With the statement “not limited to“ this could mean any operational changes made by DVC.


----------



## Cyberc1978

I think one of the reasons why they came up with the voucher plan is that they want to stay in business. IF they turned down all renters they would receive very bad PR and due to that alone they might not be able to stay in business.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Cyberc1978 said:


> With the statement “not limited to“ this could mean any operational changes made by DVC.


Correct. While the examples given are amenities, they can certainly make an argument that this does cover a resort closure.


----------



## Sandisw

Cyberc1978 said:


> I dont know what it covers, but to me “operational changes“ can be a lot of things and as stated “this would include but is not limited to“ basically this means to me any operational changes made by DVC.



Which is exactly why it can’t be relied on because if I think It applies to one set of things, and you can apply it to something else...and that something else is the product you are buying...it would take a judge to decide if it was reasonable For a renter to know they were agreeing to not having a room.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Sandisw said:


> Which is exactly why it can’t be relied on because if I think It applies to one set of things, and you can apply it to something else...and that something else is the product you are buying...it would take a judge to decide if it was reasonable For a renter to know they were agreeing to not having a room.



You can argue both ways and as you say it would take a judge. Maybe that’s another reason why David’s dont wanna risk going to court, then it can go both ways. If the lose he have to pay ALL renters. Now he can settle with a vouchers and maybe increase the prices in a few months.


----------



## Amymouse13

My issue with a voucher is that he can't actually produce the good.  He's a third party.  It's not a credit with Disney cruise lines or United airlines that I can directly book.  Since he doesn't hold any actual commodity he's like a pass through.  No owners, no value to voucher.  We didn't give him money to hope to find a reservation, we paid when he could secure one.  He alone cannot make the voucher worth anything.  Not to mention we have no idea when Disney will reopen.  If he is depending on a high percentage of points that are about to expire between March and August which is fairly good...


----------



## Marionnette

Amymouse13 said:


> My issue with a voucher is that he can't actually produce the good.  He's a third party.  It's not a credit with Disney cruise lines or United airlines that I can directly book.  Since he doesn't hold any actual commodity he's like a pass through.  No owners, no value to voucher.  We didn't give him money to hope to find a reservation, we paid when he could secure one.  He alone cannot make the voucher worth anything.  Not to mention we have no idea when Disney will reopen.  If he is depending on a high percentage of points that are about to expire between March and August which is fairly good...


I think it depends on what he allows the voucher to cover. David’s also has a travel agency that could book DCL or ABD for the renter. Of course, those are much more pricey vacations than a DVC rental and would likely result in the renter spending even more money in order to get use out of their vouchers.


----------



## momincolorado

Marionnette said:


> I think it depends on what he allows the voucher to cover. David’s also has a travel agency that could book DCL or ABD for the renter. Of course, those are much more pricey vacations than a DVC rental and would likely result in the renter spending even more money in order to get use out of their vouchers.



Yup! From their e-mail to me: “This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, ABD, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Line, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.”


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

yankeesfan123 said:


> Correct. While the examples given are amenities, they can certainly make an argument that this does cover a resort closure.


Given that virtually the entire paragraph speaks to resort amenities, I highly doubt many courts would interpret this to include the paid-for accommodations being totally unavailable. The phrase "included but not limited to" is thrown into a lot of contracts, but that doesn't mean it carries as much weight as some think it does. The specific examples used gives a reasonable reader a clear indication of what was intended. While it might include something like the laundry machines not working, the idea that it would include you showing up to the resort and not even having a room is far fetched to say the least. 

To me, the strongest argument against this is if they intended to include resort closure in this clause they would have included it. It does not take an attorney to understand that this would have been very simple language to include. They included "play ground", but not "resort closure"? Clearly that language isn't included because that's not what was intended. Also worth noting, where ambiguity exists in a contract (i.e., open to interpretation), the ambiguity will be interpreted against whoever drafted the contract, in this case, David's.


----------



## yankeesfan123

right. And as a lawyer, “but not limited to” means exactly what it means: not limited to.  David’s is not limited to those examples. Not. Limited. To.

I’m a renter who could lose thousands of dollars in this. Trust me, I’m not in his side.

if there’s enough interest I can do some research on westlaw regarding how Florida courts have interpreted “not limited to”, but since we aren’t even certain a lawsuit could be brought in Florida over this contract, I’m not sure such research would be worth my time (since I can’t bill for it!)


----------



## Galun

yankeesfan123 said:


> right. And as a lawyer, “but not limited to” means exactly what it means: not limited to.  David’s is not limited to those examples. Not. Limited. To.
> 
> I’m a renter who could lose thousands of dollars in this. Trust me, I’m not in his side.
> 
> if there’s enough interest I can do some research on westlaw regarding how Florida courts have interpreted “not limited to”, but since we aren’t even certain a lawsuit could be brought in Florida over this contract, I’m not sure such research would be worth my time (since I can’t bill for it!)



Just for my interest - if David’s go bankrupt as a Canadian company, can a Canadian bankruptcy trustee even go after owners who are based outside of Canada?  If not, then it doesn‘t really matter what the contract says.

If yes, how does a Canadian trustee even collect outside of the country?  The amount we are talking about is small claims court territory.   I’d think jurisdiction is going to be a huge issue for the Canadian trustee.

Intuitively I picked David’s because he was based in Canada and I am in the US.  As an owner I get 70% of the cash right away, so in the back of my mind I always think my downside is limited if things go south.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Galun said:


> Just for my interest - if David’s go bankrupt as a Canadian company, can a Canadian bankruptcy trustee even go after owners who are based outside of Canada?  If not, then it doesn‘t really matter what the contract says.
> 
> If yes, how does a Canadian trustee even collect outside of the country?  The amount we are talking about is small claims court territory.   I’d think jurisdiction is going to be a huge issue for the Canadian trustee.
> 
> Intuitively I picked David’s because he was based in Canada and I am in the US.  As an owner I get 70% of the cash right away, so in the back of my mind I always think my downside is limited if things go south.


Absolutely NO idea, and I have even less knowledge about if they use “trustees” or how the BK process is in Canada.


----------



## Galun

yankeesfan123 said:


> Absolutely NO idea, and I have even less knowledge about if they use “trustees” or how the BK process is in Canada.



Say we have a three way contract - someone in New York (renter), someone in Canada (David’s), and someone in California (Owner).  In this case it’s the renter that’s trying to recover since they are out 100% of the money with no vacation.

I‘d think if the renter really wants to sue, it will have to be in Canada against David’s, and California against the owner.  Probably very difficult and cost prohibitive for the average renter?

For the renter chargeback really seems like the best option.


----------



## ziravan

Galun said:


> Just for my interest - if David’s go bankrupt as a Canadian company, can a Canadian bankruptcy trustee even go after owners who are based outside of Canada?  If not, then it doesn‘t really matter what the contract says.
> 
> If yes, how does a Canadian trustee even collect outside of the country?  The amount we are talking about is small claims court territory.   I’d think jurisdiction is going to be a huge issue for the Canadian trustee.
> 
> Intuitively I picked David’s because he was based in Canada and I am in the US.  As an owner I get 70% of the cash right away, so in the back of my mind I always think my downside is limited if things go south.


This is why the best solution would be to leverage whatever goodwill the owners might have towards their renters to find an equitable solution.

 No courts necessary.

Davids should be trying to use that goodwill to make things right for as many renters as possible instead of trying to pad his liquidity.

I’ve had intense discussions in the past on this site about how I felt private renters were a better option than the brokers and I was repeatedly dismissed because the extra security David’s provided was worth the price. That discussion will be different from now on, if it ever comes up again.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Any lawsuit anywhere would likely exceed the cost of what is owed.
Plus, your attorney will likely the 1/3 if whatever is recovered + costs.

the only cost effective way would be a small claims case,but you’re still going to spend a lot of money on out of country service and be unlikely to actually collect anything in the end.


----------



## yankeesfan123

ziravan said:


> This is why the best solution would be to leverage whatever goodwill the owners might have towards their renters to find an equitable solution.
> 
> No courts necessary.
> 
> Davids should be trying to use that goodwill to make things right for as many renters as possible instead of trying to pad his liquidity.
> 
> I’ve had intense discussions in the past on this site about how I felt private renters were a better option than the brokers and I was repeatedly dismissed because the extra security David’s provided was worth the price. That discussion will be different from now on, if it ever comes up again.


In general, for MOST foreseeable possibilities, David’s contract does keep everyone safer and more secrete.
Obviously, not in this scenario.


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

yankeesfan123 said:


> right. And as a lawyer, “but not limited to” means exactly what it means: not limited to.  David’s is not limited to those examples. Not. Limited. To.
> 
> I’m a renter who could lose thousands of dollars in this. Trust me, I’m not in his side.
> 
> if there’s enough interest I can do some research on westlaw regarding how Florida courts have interpreted “not limited to”, but since we aren’t even certain a lawsuit could be brought in Florida over this contract, I’m not sure such research would be worth my time (since I can’t bill for it!)


I think most of us, lawyers or not, can comprehend what "not limited to" means. But it certainly doesn't mean, "includes anything the contract drafter wants it to include after the fact."

"This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other *amenities* controlled by the Resort." I don't claim to know how for sure a particular court, in Florida or elsewhere, would interpret this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest they might not be that impressed with an argument that this was intended to include the resort being completely shut down, when "resort shutdown" would be an obvious inclusion if intended.


----------



## LAX

Cyberc1978 said:


> I think one of the reasons why they came up with the voucher plan is that they want to stay in business. *IF they turned down all renters they would receive very bad PR* and due to that alone they might not be able to stay in business.



Even with the voucher plan, there has been plenty of negative PR. At this point, I am not even sure if his business is salvageable even if he survives this liquidity crunch.

LAX


----------



## yankeesfan123

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> I think most of us, lawyers or not, can comprehend what "not limited to" means. But it certainly doesn't mean, "includes anything the contract drafter wants it to include after the fact."
> 
> "This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other *amenities* controlled by the Resort." I don't claim to know how for sure a particular court, in Florida or elsewhere, would interpret this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest they might not be that impressed with an argument that this was intended to include the resort being completely shut down, when "resort shutdown" would be an obvious inclusion if intended.


The word you actually should’ve bolded in your statement to make your argument stronger is “other”... that could imply that the only things covered are amenities, even if not listed.


----------



## Nonsuch

meryll83 said:


> Anyone know if there’s a comptroller to verify Disneyland VGC ownerships?


https://cr.ocgov.com/recorderworks/Unfortunately, Orange County California charges $1/page to view documents.


----------



## LAX

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> I think most of us, lawyers or not, can comprehend what "not limited to" means. But it certainly doesn't mean, "includes anything the contract drafter wants it to include after the fact."
> 
> "This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other *amenities* controlled by the Resort." I don't claim to know how for sure a particular court, in Florida or elsewhere, would interpret this, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest they might not be that impressed with an argument that this was intended to include the resort being completely shut down, when "resort shutdown" would be an obvious inclusion if intended.



I think you brought up a very critical point, which is the fact that David's contract is subject to interpretation. Ultimately, I think what matters is interpretation of the presiding judge (I am assuming here as I have no law background). Had there been some language discussing what happens in the event of a resort closure (contracts in use by some owners renting privately and at least one broker actually do), then it would be a completely different situation.

Again, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this mess, to some extent, is David's responsibility.

LAX


----------



## Galun

LAX said:


> Again, I don't mean to sound harsh, but this mess, to some extent, is David's responsibility.
> 
> LAX



Not harsh at all.  I am very surprised there is no Force Majeure clause that cover the current situation.  I chose David’s rent out my points because I perceive him to be most reputable, and therefore should have the best structured contract.  Clearly this is not the case.  As I read this thread, some owner‘s private contracts have these clauses.

Personally, I think they screwed up badly as a broker, and if they survive this I will seriously reconsider their competency in having them rent my excess points.  Last time I tried direct rental was in 2013 and I remember it being a big hassle to keep checking availability for perspective renters.  Not really sure what I am going to do going forward.


----------



## LAX

Galun said:


> Not harsh at all.  I am very surprised there is no Force Majeure clause that cover the current situation.  I chose David’s rent out my points because I perceive him to be most reputable, and therefore should have the best structured contract.  Clearly this is not the case.  As I read this thread, some owner‘s private contracts have these clauses.
> 
> Personally, I think they screwed up badly as a broker, and if they survive this I will seriously reconsider their competency in having them rent my excess points.  Last time I tried direct rental was in 2013 and I remember it being a big hassle to keep checking availability for perspective renters.  Not really sure what I am going to do going forward.



To be fair, David's has been very good at handling renting points during the good times. The few times I needed to rent out some points I couldn't use, they were rented within a week or so after my requests (I have read even quicker turnaround and my "delays" were partly because I couldn't check my emails multiple times a day). However, from an owner's perspective, if the broker can't "guarantee" payment for my points regardless of what happens to the reservation, then it's of no use to me. The commission has always been advertised as the "cost" for peace of mind. In this mess, I think the owners are getting neither payment (at least not full) nor peace of mind!

LAX


----------



## tubtruck

I got full payment for a 23rd March reservation.


----------



## Sandisw

tubtruck said:


> I got full payment for a 23rd March reservation.



Did you have to re rent your points?


----------



## LAX

tubtruck said:


> I got full payment for a 23rd March reservation.



Count yourself lucky based on what others have reported here. If every owner stuck in this mess eventually gets full payment, I would change my opinion. Even then, I would still have some reservation.

LAX


----------



## ziravan

Galun said:


> Not harsh at all.  I am very surprised there is no Force Majeure clause that cover the current situation.  I chose David’s rent out my points because I perceive him to be most reputable, and therefore should have the best structured contract.  Clearly this is not the case.  As I read this thread, some owner‘s private contracts have these clauses.
> 
> Personally, I think they screwed up badly as a broker, and if they survive this I will seriously reconsider their competency in having them rent my excess points.  Last time I tried direct rental was in 2013 and I remember it being a big hassle to keep checking availability for perspective renters.  Not really sure what I am going to do going forward.


Even if he had an airtight force majeure clause that clearly spells out that the renter assumes all the risk of a park closure, then what?

How does a business model of “trust us to secure your vacation” survive 5,000 or more renters on social media describing how they got screwed by that model?

I did have a force majeure clause and I’m not worried about my business model because I don’t rent that much, but even I offered to ignore the “no refunds” part of my contract and offered a refund.

David’s contract is ambiguous and he held the pen, and that’s created a distinct lack of clarity. In the end though, no matter what the contract says, he has to make it right with the renters if he hopes to survive. And if he doesn’t survive, the renters are going to be screwed regardless.

I think the true problem lies not in the wording of the contract, but in his unwillingness to allow owners who want to refund or rebook directly to their renters an opportunity to do so.


----------



## LAX

ziravan said:


> Even if he had an airtight force majeure clause that clearly spells out that the renter assumes all the risk of a park closure, then what?
> 
> *How does a business model of “trust us to secure your vacation” survive 5,000 or more renters on social media describing how they got screwed by that model?*
> 
> I did have a force majeure clause and I’m not worried about my business model because I don’t rent that much, but even I offered to ignore the “no refunds” part of my contract and offered a refund.
> 
> David’s contract is ambiguous and he held the pen, and that’s created a distinct lack of clarity. In the end though, no matter what the contract says, he has to make it right with the renters if he hopes to survive. And if he doesn’t survive, the renters are going to be screwed regardless.



I might be biased because I am an owner, but if ALL risks are CLEARLY disclosed upfront, I really don't see the brokers "screwing" the customers in that scenario. I would hope that David's and owners come together to help out however they can if that were the case as a gesture of goodwill.

I realize there is no good analogy, but if someone has been warned about potential "loss of investment" prior to buying bargain stocks on a company and the company eventually fails, ending with worthless stock certificates. Did the investor get screwed in that case?

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> I might be biased because I am an owner, but if ALL risks are CLEARLY disclosed upfront, I really don't see the brokers "screwing" the customers in that scenario. I would hope that David's and owners come together to help out however they can if that were the case as a gesture of goodwill.
> 
> I realize there is no good analogy, but if someone has been warned about potential "loss of investment" prior to buying bargain stocks on a company and the company eventually fails, ending with worthless stock certificates. Did the investor get screwed in that case?
> 
> LAX



Yes, I agree. But, I wonder how many renters would really have gotten into a contract that said, “even if the resort is closed, you will not be given any money back,”

With the rates, I’m not sure.  My renter paid around $2100 for a room that would cost $2700 via Disney, given the discount currently.  That’s only a $600 savings.   Can’t see that being enough to risk if it had included resort closures


----------



## Galun

ziravan said:


> Even if he had an airtight force majeure clause that clearly spells out that the renter assumes all the risk of a park closure, then what?
> 
> How does a business model of “trust us to secure your vacation” survive 5,000 or more renters on social media describing how they got screwed by that model?



With the unprecedented scale, he probably can't handle it even if he had the clause.  However, he should have thought of it., and it should be included contract language.  He was supposed to reduce my hassle in finding renters (which he was very good at), and provide peace of mind as a commercial broker.  Part of the peace of mind comes from the contract.  I am merely saying he is not as good as I thought he was.  We have now 47 pages of debating what should be done if Disney had canceled the reservation.  If that language was included, there would at least have been clarity.  Whether it's enforceable due to the unprecedented scope is entirely another matter.


----------



## Amymouse13

My expertise is patents and your claim defines your four corners of the world and there is no expectation to guess what maybe you meant beyond your claim... And I'd never allow some vague open ended statement like or anything similar??  I feel I read contracts fairly well and my take away was I could not cancel my stay for any reason, I could not hold owner or David's liable for harm to myself at Disney, and if chef Mickey's was closed I'm out of luck.  

I had success in past disputing charges with credit cards, recently Wells Fargo over an undersized HVAC unit.  Was it about 10 months of my life wasted, sure, but I won about $7000.  I would never hire an attorney to fight this battle bc it's unlikely even at loss of 4-5k to win me much.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.... Even if it takes learning how to calculate a load calculation... I didn't pay a dime.  

I feel if your reservation is cancelled prior to your check-in you your contract was voided.  

David's screwed the pooch not having as many owners as possible rebook and terminate as many bad contracts as possible.  Had he been able to head off at least 50% of his problems maybe he could survive.  But by going party line to everyone especially in middle of financial meltdown... I'd be shocked if every renter wasn't doing a chargeback.  Especially after their reservation was cancelled.


----------



## LAX

Sandisw said:


> Yes, I agree. But, I wonder how many renters would really have gotten into a contract that said, “even if the resort is closed, you will not be given any money back,”
> 
> With the rates, I’m not sure.  My renter paid around $2100 for a room that would cost $2700 via Disney, given the discount currently.  That’s only a $600 savings.   Can’t see that being enough to risk if it had included resort closures



The rental market will dictate whether the risk is worth the saving. If most people decide it's not worth it even at substantial discount off of direct price from Disney, then the rental market will cease to exist and I will be no worse off than with a market where I as an owner takes on the risk of getting stuck with nearly worthless points.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> The rental market will dictate whether the risk is worth the saving. If most people decide it's not worth it even at substantial discount off of direct price from Disney, then the rental market will cease to exist and I will be no worse off than with a market where I as an owner takes on the risk of getting stuck with nearly worthless points.
> 
> LAX



I think that is what I was trying to say,  The savings would have to be a pretty good one in order to risk it all,

Todays prices, IMO, and the deals Disney will be offering,  I think will have an impact on rentals where the clause says a resort closure doesn’t qualify them for a refund.


----------



## LAX

Sandisw said:


> I think that is what I was trying to say,  The savings would have to be a pretty good one in order to risk it all,
> 
> Todays prices, IMO, and the deals Disney will be offering,  I think will have an impact on rentals where the clause says a resort closure doesn’t qualify them for a refund.



I am not disagreeing with you. But I wanted to emphasize that a rental market where owners are exposed to risks that we are now seeing won't survive. If that were the case, I imagine most owners would rather gamble with renting directly, which ironically appears to be "safer" in some ways.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> I am not disagreeing with you. But I wanted to emphasize that a rental market where owners are exposed to risks that we are now seeing won't survive. If that were the case, I imagine most owners would rather gamble with renting directly, which ironically appears to be "safer" in some ways.
> 
> LAX



Got it...yes, I will never use a broker again.


----------



## Yinn

LAX said:


> I am not disagreeing with you. But I wanted to emphasize that a rental market where owners are exposed to risks that we are now seeing won't survive. If that were the case, I imagine most owners would rather gamble with renting directly, which ironically appears to be "safer" in some ways.
> 
> LAX



Less or equal risk and more money. It’s a no brainer


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> I think that is what I was trying to say,  The savings would have to be a pretty good one in order to risk it all,
> 
> Todays prices, IMO, and the deals Disney will be offering,  I think will have an impact on rentals where the clause says a resort closure doesn’t qualify them for a refund.


And uncertainty of this virus and if there will be repeat closures if numbers went up... I'm never planning a trip again I can't completely cancel.  Based on number of pandemics in last how many years?  H1n1 now this, then SARS and MERS.  No way


----------



## toniosmom

TS1998a said:


> I reached out and rebooked my May renters, then sent David's an email. Finally got a response from them. It follows:
> 
> "We appreciate you reaching out to the C family to circumvent the long wait times and accommodate their need to move travel dates.
> 
> 
> If you want to continue to work directly with the C family, you are more than welcome to do so on the condition that the C family confirm with us, via email, that they are in agreement to work directly with you, relieving David’s Vacation Club Rentals of any further compensation or assistance as this will become a private rental with directly with you. Once this is confirmed, we will promptly pay you the remaining 30%.
> 
> We will proceed to contact the C family now and upon receipt of approval from them, we will complete the agreement. Please respond with your acknowledgment."


Wow....you got a response!  I did the same thing....rebooked my renters and emailed David's (twice) to update the rental contract and have never heard back from them.  I'm getting frustrated.


----------



## Angeliki19

ziravan said:


> Run the owner’s name through Orange County Comptroller and see if you can use that info to figure out your owners hometown from the deed:
> 
> https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/


Hi! Thanks for posting this.. I tried it and found the deeds but I’m not seeing where I could find the owner’s location. It says their address is care of the DVD office in Celebration. Am I missing something?

ETA- I did a Google search and was able to find addresses for both my owners. Was thinking about sending a card in the mail explaining my situation (that we would like to rebook), but my boyfriend thinks I’m being super stalker-ish haha. He thinks they might be freaked out and then not want to work with us at all.  What do you owners think?? Would this be weird? I have just sitting around with all this unknown, but yeah definitely don’t want to invade anyone’s privacy!


----------



## Amymouse13

Angeliki19 said:


> Hi! Thanks for posting this.. I tried it and found the deeds but I’m not seeing where I could find the owner’s location. It says their address is care of the DVD office in Celebration. Am I missing something?
> 
> ETA- I did a Google search and was able to find addresses for both my owners. Was thinking about sending a card in the mail explaining my situation (that we would like to rebook), but my boyfriend thinks I’m being super stalker-ish haha. He thinks they might be freaked out and then not want to work with us at all.  What do you owners think?? Would this be weird? I have just sitting around with all this unknown, but yeah definitely don’t want to invade anyone’s privacy!


I tried a Facebook message but so far no response.  I really just wanted to let her know what was going on in this thread.


----------



## Matty B13

LAX said:


> The rental market will dictate whether the risk is worth the saving. If most people decide it's not worth it even at substantial discount off of direct price from Disney, then the rental market will cease to exist and I will be no worse off than with a market where I as an owner takes on the risk of getting stuck with nearly worthless points.


If this happens I think availability will go back to the way it was years ago, before the rental market exploded, especially for studios.  Probably the only silver-lining in this whole mess. 

I know when I rent out my points myself, I have a no refunds policy, but I let the renter change their reservation within the limits of the points that I sold them.  I make this very clear to them when trying to setup a reservation, and I only take personal checks.


----------



## Miffy

I'm not an owner or a renter, but I've been following this thread. David's is losing goodwill by the minute. It's not a business that's selling a product that people desperately need, so David's is highly dependent on goodwill. Since the business is in danger of collapsing entirely anyway, wouldn't it be better to go out with good intentions? Doing everything possible to make things as right as possible for both renters and owners? Instead of trying to salvage the business while simultaneously silencing all criticisms on social media?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

IMO you need to factor in that the credit card company has no privity (zero to do) with the contracts between the owner, dave and renter.  Or between dave and owner.  The credit card is only the method of renter meeting the contract obligations.  That has no bearing on the question of validity of one contract or the other contract.  It would mean the renter not only breached the contract but might have committed an anticipatory breach with Dave and Dave would have a cause of action against the renter.

It has no bearing on the owner and/or owner being in breach or not.


----------



## Grnl706

Angeliki19 said:


> Hi! Thanks for posting this.. I tried it and found the deeds but I’m not seeing where I could find the owner’s location. It says their address is care of the DVD office in Celebration. Am I missing something?
> 
> ETA- I did a Google search and was able to find addresses for both my owners. Was thinking about sending a card in the mail explaining my situation (that we would like to rebook), but my boyfriend thinks I’m being super stalker-ish haha. He thinks they might be freaked out and then not want to work with us at all.  What do you owners think?? Would this be weird? I have just sitting around with all this unknown, but yeah definitely don’t want to invade anyone’s privacy!


I mailed off a letter to my Owner yesterday so I definitely don't think its weird! I just explained how I got the address at the very beginning.


----------



## Amymouse13

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO you need to factor in that the credit card company has no privity (zero to do) with the contracts between the owner, dave and renter.  Or between dave and owner.  The credit card is only the method of renter meeting the contract obligations.  That has no bearing on the question of validity of one contract or the other contract.  It would mean the renter not only breached the contract but might have committed an anticipatory breach with Dave and Dave would have a cause of action against the renter.
> 
> It has no bearing on the owner and/or owner being in breach or not.


Huh??


----------



## ziravan

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO you need to factor in that the credit card company has no privity (zero to do) with the contracts between the owner, dave and renter.  Or between dave and owner.  The credit card is only the method of renter meeting the contract obligations.  That has no bearing on the question of validity of one contract or the other contract.  It would mean the renter not only breached the contract but might have committed an anticipatory breach with Dave and Dave would have a cause of action against the renter.
> 
> It has no bearing on the owner and/or owner being in breach or not.


I think David’s changing the terms of the contract to give some future credit is the breach of contract and the credit card reversal is the appropriate response.

If David’s thinks he wants to sue individual renters over that, he needs to first stop advertising that he no longer intends to honor the contract as written.

Otherwise, as a renter, my attitude would be, “good luck with that and see you in court.” In the meantime, I’m gonna try to get my money back.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Apparently I forgot to use the 'insert quotes' button.  Sorry.  The point is that many posters are assuming the credit card charge back will determine what liability is and to whom.  It will not.  A charge back will only alter the balance of power between renters and companies like "Dave".  Instead of Dave having the money the renter will have the money.  Dave will lose their profit and the money the sent to owners.  I would not expect any company to tolerate that at a high level.  At a minimum I would expect them to run for bankruptcy and stop the charge backs.  A company would also try and get money back from owners including via methods that might not be factually true.  I can certainly see a company implying that the charge back 'proves' the owner needs to repay the company.  This would be totally false but it is what I would expect.


Amymouse13 said:


> Huh??


----------



## TS1998a

toniosmom said:


> Wow....you got a response!  I did the same thing....rebooked my renters and emailed David's (twice) to update the rental contract and have never heard back from them.  I'm getting frustrated.


 Yes but I haven't heard from them since and it's been several days now.


----------



## tubtruck

People seem to assume that credit cards will simply hand the money back to the renters. I have done a chargeback in the past, and lost. My chargeback to a company called travelup was for airline tickets from the UK to USA. I had placed my wifes middle name by mistake in the last name box. I realised my mistake within five minutes and instantly called their helpline.
The company had not even booked the tickets with British Airways, I confirmed this, with Britiish Airways but still they refused a refund and were unwilling to correct the name for the ticket.
British Airways also confirmed to me that one call to them would allow any ticket name to be changed no problem as it was done within 24 hours and they realise mistakes do happen.
I had paid with American Express I contacted them and they started a chargeback. This means the money is temporarily placed back into your account, and accrues no interest until the credit card company have concluded their investigation.
I told Amex everything that happened with Travelup, their poor call centre service, what British Airways had told me about the fact no ticket had even been generated and if it had it could easily be changed as mistakes do happen and basically that their business model allows them to keep the considerable price of a transatlantic ticket for even the simplest of mistakes that was highlighted within minutes of the transaction.

Travelup contacted Amex, showed them their terms and conditions and after a couple of months Amex paid them the money. I was out to the tune of almost £1000 for a premium economy flight. As harsh as it was I had been stung  by a bunch of crooks, but their terms and conditions said under no circumstances is the ticket changeable or refundable and they simply took the opportunity to play by these pretty  rules, refusing to change any ticket details safe in the knowledge that they would eventually get to keep my money however unfair and irrespective of it would give them bad press or not.
They were able to pocket a sizeable chunk of my money for doing nothing and I had no option but to take it on the chin. Amex refused to continue any investigation or side with myself and considered the matter closed. I suggested to Amex they pay me back the money and allow Travelup to sue me. Amex were sympathetic, agreed that Travelup were behaving in a shark like manner but advised they could do no more. Should I want to go any further Amex advised I would have need to sue travelup and for £1000 with them armed with their dodgy contract I would likely be throwing good time and money after bad.

Should anyone do a chargeback, it takes about a month before David needs to even reply.  Several to get it finally sorted. David will show them his contract as evidence, highlighting no refunds in any circumstances and there is a good possibility the credit card companies will agree with him.


----------



## ziravan

tubtruck said:


> People seem to assume that credit cards will simply hand the money back to the renters. I have done a chargeback in the past, and lost. My chargeback to a company called travelup was for airline tickets from the UK to USA. I had placed my wifes middle name by mistake in the last name box. I realised my mistake within five minutes and instantly called their helpline.
> The company had not even booked the tickets with British Airways, I confirmed this, with Britiish Airways but still they refused a refund and were unwilling to correct the name for the ticket.
> British Airways also confirmed to me that one call to them would allow any ticket name to be changed no problem as it was done within 24 hours and they realise mistakes do happen.
> I had paid with American Express I contacted them and they started a chargeback. This means the money is temporarily placed back into your account, and accrues no interest until the credit card company have concluded their investigation.
> I told Amex everything that happened with Travelup, their poor call centre service, what British Airways had told me about the fact no ticket had even been generated and if it had it could easily be changed as mistakes do happen and basically that their business model allows them to keep the considerable price of a transatlantic ticket for even the simplest of mistakes that was highlighted within minutes of the transaction.
> 
> Travelup contacted Amex, showed them their terms and conditions and after a couple of months Amex paid them the money. I was out to the tune of almost £1000 for a premium economy flight. As harsh as it was I had been stung  by a bunch of crooks, but their terms and conditions said under no circumstances is the ticket changeable or refundable and they simply took the opportunity to play by these pretty  rules, refusing to change any ticket details safe in the knowledge that they would eventually get to keep my money however unfair and irrespective of it would give them bad press or not.
> They were able to pocket a sizeable chunk of my money for doing nothing and I had no option but to take it on the chin. Amex refused to continue any investigation or side with myself and considered the matter closed. I suggested to Amex they pay me back the money and allow Travelup to sue me. Amex were sympathetic, agreed that Travelup were behaving in a shark like manner but advised they could do no more. Should I want to go any further Amex advised I would have need to sue travelup and for £1000 with them armed with their dodgy contract I would likely be throwing good time and money after bad.
> 
> Should anyone do a chargeback, it takes about a month before David needs to even reply.  Several to get it finally sorted. David will show them his contract as evidence, highlighting no refunds in any circumstances and there is a good possibility the credit card companies will agree with him.


Maybe, maybe not.

I suspect each card company is going to have dozens if not hundreds of chargeback request all pointing out the the goods weren’t delivered.

Some will point out that even David’s states the contract was now void.

Some will point out that he’s no longer honoring the contracts with his travel credit scheme.

There’s power in numbers.

And. Even if the renter ultimately loses the argument, it’s still the highest percentage chance of being made whole. It’s still worth the pursuit.


----------



## Sandisw

ziravan said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> I suspect each card company is going to have dozens if not hundreds of chargeback request all pointing out the the goods weren’t delivered.
> 
> Some will point out that even David’s states the contract was now void.
> 
> Some will point out that he’s no longer honoring the contracts with his travel credit scheme.
> 
> There’s power in numbers.
> 
> And. Even if the renter ultimately loses the argument, it’s still the highest percentage chance of being made whole. It’s still worth the pursuit.



I even think the offer of the travel credit after the fact weakens his argument that it is non refundable.  He is admitting to a certain degree he is changing things.  Since that is not part of the contract, I am not sure it can be used to say the renter is getting something.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Under the circumstance IMO the offer by Daves to mitigate damages will not be seen as an admission of anything but only as an attempt to do the right thing.

If hundreds of charges are going to be at risk at two thousand dollars or more this is serious money.  I don't know how much money Daves earns or has stashed but I don't expect they have the money sitting around.  I expect they run for bankruptcy protection until it is sorted out.


----------



## tubtruck

Sandisw said:


> I even think the offer of the travel credit after the fact weakens his argument that it is non refundable.  He is admitting to a certain degree he is changing things.  Since that is not part of the contract, I am not sure it can be used to say the renter is getting something.


He will state that it simply shows he is going above and beyond, it admits nothing.


----------



## Amymouse13

Regardless of outcome I believe my odds are better with chargebacks than getting a vacation with a voucher.  I know one of my owners that cancelled early on said they would rebook to David's in writing and nope...


----------



## LAX

tubtruck said:


> He will state that it simply shows he is going above and beyond, it admits nothing.



I agree. In fact, it may actually get him some sympathy from CC companies. I think most CC companies encourage customers and merchants to "work out their differences" before getting them involved. While I am not sure how the voucher plan may change the opinions of CC companies, David's may just be able to convince them that he is working out a plan to deliver the "goods" he promised.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

tubtruck said:


> He will state that it simply shows he is going above and beyond, it admits nothing.



My opinion but   I think it will play a role in chargebacks. Why? Because he is unilaterally changing the terms of the contract


----------



## ziravan

LAX said:


> I agree. In fact, it may actually get him some sympathy from CC companies. I think most CC companies encourage customers and merchants to "work out their differences" before getting them involved. While I am not sure how the voucher plan may change the opinions of CC companies, David's may just be able to convince them that he is working out a plan to deliver the "goods" he promised.
> 
> LAX


In that case, filing for bankruptcy would be a double edged sword. He might stop the current bleeding but once in bankruptcy, this voucher plan would no longer hold any water as being a credible solution.

Personally, I wouldn’t take a travel voucher because I believe they are worthless. Whether David’s goes under now or in 3 month, his business model - that he’s a safety net for both owner and renter - is irreparably harmed.


----------



## LAX

Sandisw said:


> My opinion but   I think it will play a role in chargebacks. Why? Because he is unilaterally changing the terms of the contract



I think you are right that it may play a role, but he can claim he is not changing the terms of the original contract. In fact, he can say he is actually going above and beyond the original contract so that he can eventually deliver on what the customer initially paid. Will it convince the CC companies? Who knows?

LAX


----------



## LAX

ziravan said:


> In that case, filing for bankruptcy would be a double edged sword. He might stop the current bleeding but once in bankruptcy, this voucher plan would no longer hold any water as being a credible solution.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn’t take a travel voucher because I believe they are worthless. Whether David’s goes under now or in 3 month, his business model - that he’s a safety net for both owner and renter - is irreparably harmed.



Oh. I absolutely agree with you that David's as a company is toast, IMHO. My guess on the voucher plan is that it might buy him some extra time. Once he files for BK, does he even have to care about charge backs then (honest question)?

LAX


----------



## Amymouse13

I feel his desire to avoid letting renters rebook with willing owners which would actually fulfill the terms of the contract makes his argument less persuasive.  

We also presume he's a brilliant legal mind, but were he, his contract wouldn't have had problems.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Amymouse13 said:


> I feel his desire to avoid letting renters rebook with willing owners which would actually fulfill the terms of the contract makes his argument less persuasive.
> 
> We also presume he's a brilliant legal mind, but were he, his contract wouldn't have had problems.


Recall that major sports, entertainment and companies all over the world are having these problems.  The lawsuits have not really begun.  IMO Dave has a simple contract for many valid and smart reasons.  One of them is that no contract can ever meet every contingency.
Example:  the use of including but not limited to.  This is an acknowledgement that events outside what is foreseen can arise and assigning those risks to one party.  Arguably (and it is a strong argument) this is what happened.

IMO Dave's will have a business that can survive IF he doesn't have all his liquidity taken and if they can come up with fair solutions.

Lots of complaints on these boards about Disney and/or DVC not being able to come up with solutions.  Disney has far vaster resources than Dave's.


----------



## PopGirl26

What would you do?

I had a points rental for 3/24-3/28 through David’s.  The owner was very kind and rescheduled for May for us, but her points will be unusable after May (I don’t own DVC or understand use years, but I believe her).

It seems very unlikely that Disney resorts will be open in May, so I am thinking of any way I can to recoup the money I paid.

I intentionally paid with a card that had travel insurance (Sapphire Preferred), and it excludes fear due to pandemic.  But in this case, it isn’t my fear keeping me from travel.  It’s that the resort will (presumably) be closed!

Has anyone attempted an insurance claim yet?  Any other thoughts about how to salvage this?


----------



## TheWheel

So here's my story as a renter.

I made two reservations through David's for a split stay that was supposed to have ended yesterday.

Upon the parks closing but prior to the resorts closing I reached out to David's initially just to ask if they had a plan should the resorts shut down and I got one of their "We are looking into it" replies.

I knew that if the hotels stayed open I was likely to just be out my vacation and money.

After they announced the closing of the resorts I reached out again as I viewed the language in the contract that I was due a refund. However, I was willing to work with the owners if they were also willing to try and rebook.

After a couple of days I had heard nothing from David's so followed up and they replied saying that one of the owners was willing to rebook but they hadn't heard back from the other. I let them know that if they didn't hear back my expectation was I will be refunded for that reservation.

Unfortunately we were not able to find a similar booking during a time that worked for us. I let David's know that I thought it would be easier for all if they refunded my money as per the contract and they were free to work with the owner to rebook their points.

Davids reply was that they didn't have the cash on hand to provide my refund. This is when the alarm bells really started ringing in my head. I realized that David's wasn't working on helping their owners and guests get through this. They were only interested in keeping themselves alive and that they were willing to lie or do what they felt they needed to to keep the lights on.

I let them know that they should either find it or I would have to dispute through my CC.

I also was becoming more alarmed by reading the forums here and their social media postings and realized that if I didn't get my money soon it was unlikely to come at all so I thought it was time to put more pressure on. I reached out again as I had heard no response and told them they had 2 days to refund or I would be taking this to dispute with my credit card.

Their response was to try and lay a guilt trip about being a small family run operation with 35 employees etc. They asked me to please not go the charge back route. My response was that while I had sympathy with their situation it was unfair for them to believe that their customers needed to be the ones to foot their tab and that I expected my refund as per our contract. 

David's responded saying they had been able to re-rent one of my owners points and they would be refunding my amount in full. I asked about the other reservation and they said they were going to reach out to the other owner. (That they had told me they reached out to a week prior) I told them that since they had refunded for the first one I would give them more time but that my expectation was still a refund as per my contract.

I heard nothing and reached out again. They said they had sent the owner another booking and were just awaiting him making the reservation.

I waited two days and reached out again. They responded saying that the booking fell through. Around this time the talk of these vouchers started to come online and I knew this was a house of cards. Once again I gave them 48 hours to refund or I would be forced to go the charge back route.

2 days later I reached out as I hadn't heard anything and they replied that they had found new renters but the reservation was shorter so they could only provide a partial refund and that they already processed it. I let them know that I did not agree to a partial refund and that they needed to refund me in full. The next day they let me know that they would be refunding the remaining money.

I've booked directly with Disney now and while I downgrade from Deluxe to Moderate I did get free dining plan and no risk if I need to cancel again.

At the end of the day, happy ending for me. The owners have new bookings (assuming Davids stays in business for the 30% payout and Davids has 2 less bookings to worry about.

I think my resolution came about the way it did for a few reasons. 
1. I was one of the earliest affected renters and I reached out early. 
2. My owners were willing to work to fix what they could on their end and had points that were not expiring soon. 
3. I kept on David's and didn't just send one email and walk away with faith that David's would make it right (plus the email communications would have come in very handy in the case of a credit card dispute.) I was approaching 20 different communications between phone and email. 
4.  I also wonder if being from Canada helped as it would have been much easier for myself to launch legal action against David then it would be for others.


----------



## Amymouse13

As much as David's might want one outcome for all this, vouchers.  That's clearly not going to happen.  Likely a mix of owners working with renters outside contract, vouchers, insurance, and chargebacks.  Chargebacks are not all one outcome... Each case is different and every credit card company will decide individually.  We used two different ones and I'd be surprised if they had same outcome.


----------



## DisneyLover83

I’ve read so many different things... we rented through David’s for 5/23-5/30 at AKL. Booked it last September. 
Do we just wait? And what are we waiting on? For Disney to cancel the reservation? My owners name is generic so attempting to locate and reach my owner would be impossible. We are AP holders and flexible with dates but I fear I’ll be out all my resort money by the time the end of May rolls around with what I’m hearing about David’s.
We are sad and heartbroken because If we lose this money we can’t afford to rebook through another avenue.


----------



## Amymouse13

DisneyLover83 said:


> I’ve read so many different things... we rented through David’s for 5/23-5/30 at AKL. Booked it last September.
> Do we just wait? And what are we waiting on? For Disney to cancel the reservation? My owners name is generic so attempting to locate and reach my owner would be impossible. We are AP holders and flexible with dates but I fear I’ll be out all my resort money by the time the end of May rolls around with what I’m hearing about David’s.
> We are sad and heartbroken because If we lose this money we can’t afford to rebook through another avenue.



Our trip wouldn't be til April 18 split stay but the owners both cancelled ours, saw second reservation was cancelled by April 1.  After run around with David's I put in chargebacks.  Honestly our 3.5 yo was so sad when April 1 came as she was like April! We go to Disney in April... No honey... I used to be thinking about rebooking but my husband had to close his dental practice as per state last month.  Down one income, unless we get money back yeah IDK when we'd be going.  I wish we could get our tickets refunded.  We also had to cancel a trip in August.  The 2 year old loves flipping through a pretty Disney book from when I went as a child... Maybe some day... 

I pushed forward with my chargeback as my reservations are cancelled.  I'm sure David's would tell you they are sorting out March and April and to not send more than one email... Disney hasn't for sure said closed in May yet either...


----------



## OurDogCisco

Amymouse13 said:


> Our trip wouldn't be til April 18 split stay but the owners both cancelled ours, saw second reservation was cancelled by April 1.  After run around with David's I put in chargebacks.  Honestly our 3.5 yo was so sad when April 1 came as she was like April! We go to Disney in April... No honey... I used to be thinking about rebooking but my husband had to close his dental practice as per state last month.  Down one income, unless we get money back yeah IDK when we'd be going.  I wish we could get our tickets refunded.  We also had to cancel a trip in August.  The 2 year old loves flipping through a pretty Disney book from when I went as a child... Maybe some day...
> 
> I pushed forward with my chargeback as my reservations are cancelled.  I'm sure David's would tell you they are sorting out March and April and to not send more than one email... Disney hasn't for sure said closed in May yet either...


How do you know the owner cancelled?  DVC is automatically canceling reservations.  I’ve gotten no real response from David’s other than canned promises.  I have 3 rentals out with David and I’d like to help the renters but very difficult this is a very unusual situation.  I’d happily refund my renter but I only have part of the funds.  David gives us 70% of 14.50 so about 10.15 per point.  You paid 18.50 a point so I couldn’t really make you whole.   This process is very frustrating


----------



## DougEMG

A friend of mine had a trip booked to Portugal through Expedia which was cancelled and instead of a refund, Expedia gave them a voucher good for 1 year.


----------



## Amymouse13

OurDogCisco said:


> How do you know the owner cancelled?  DVC is automatically canceling reservations.  I’ve gotten no real response from David’s other than canned promises.  I have 3 rentals out with David and I’d like to help the renters but very difficult this is a very unusual situation.  I’d happily refund my renter but I only have part of the funds.  David gives us 70% of 14.50 so about 10.15 per point.  You paid 18.50 a point so I couldn’t really make you whole.   This process is very frustrating



I saw on my Disney app on April 1 the BLT was cancelled for April 18.  My understanding is Disney is only cancelling a week out.  My April 22 AK was cancelled before that.  David's had told me my AKL owner would rebook me after we found out deal with BLT.  The girl said BLT owner had two rentals during March time and thought the points may be expiring as I had booked so far out (duh we booked last April or May lol).  That was last they told me until canned vouchers.  

I find a voucher I can just enter on a website like Expedia to have more value than David's.  Hell no to a cruise.  

As has been said before owners have renters info if they opt to contact them.  I sent my AKL owner a fb message but no response.  Idk how to contact my BLT owner as the deed says some timeshare LLC.  

I originally would have been happy with rebooking me as that still gave me a reservation... But David's has opted no to go that path even for those that can... That's my issue.  

OBX rental companies have on their website we are dealing with each situation separately.  Smart, don't lock yourself into one path for everyone.  Fix as many problems as you can then sort out rest.  I hadn't planned to do chargeback until reading what he was doing on here.  The management of the owners is shady.


----------



## toniosmom

TheWheel said:


> So here's my story as a renter.
> 
> I made two reservations through David's for a split stay that was supposed to have ended yesterday.
> 
> Upon the parks closing but prior to the resorts closing I reached out to David's initially just to ask if they had a plan should the resorts shut down and I got one of their "We are looking into it" replies.
> 
> I knew that if the hotels stayed open I was likely to just be out my vacation and money.
> 
> After they announced the closing of the resorts I reached out again as I viewed the language in the contract that I was due a refund. However, I was willing to work with the owners if they were also willing to try and rebook.
> 
> After a couple of days I had heard nothing from David's so followed up and they replied saying that one of the owners was willing to rebook but they hadn't heard back from the other. I let them know that if they didn't hear back my expectation was I will be refunded for that reservation.
> 
> Unfortunately we were not able to find a similar booking during a time that worked for us. I let David's know that I thought it would be easier for all if they refunded my money as per the contract and they were free to work with the owner to rebook their points.
> 
> Davids reply was that they didn't have the cash on hand to provide my refund. This is when the alarm bells really started ringing in my head. I realized that David's wasn't working on helping their owners and guests get through this. They were only interested in keeping themselves alive and that they were willing to lie or do what they felt they needed to to keep the lights on.
> 
> I let them know that they should either find it or I would have to dispute through my CC.
> 
> I also was becoming more alarmed by reading the forums here and their social media postings and realized that if I didn't get my money soon it was unlikely to come at all so I thought it was time to put more pressure on. I reached out again as I had heard no response and told them they had 2 days to refund or I would be taking this to dispute with my credit card.
> 
> Their response was to try and lay a guilt trip about being a small family run operation with 35 employees etc. They asked me to please not go the charge back route. My response was that while I had sympathy with their situation it was unfair for them to believe that their customers needed to be the ones to foot their tab and that I expected my refund as per our contract.
> 
> David's responded saying they had been able to re-rent one of my owners points and they would be refunding my amount in full. I asked about the other reservation and they said they were going to reach out to the other owner. (That they had told me they reached out to a week prior) I told them that since they had refunded for the first one I would give them more time but that my expectation was still a refund as per my contract.
> 
> I heard nothing and reached out again. They said they had sent the owner another booking and were just awaiting him making the reservation.
> 
> I waited two days and reached out again. They responded saying that the booking fell through. Around this time the talk of these vouchers started to come online and I knew this was a house of cards. Once again I gave them 48 hours to refund or I would be forced to go the charge back route.
> 
> 2 days later I reached out as I hadn't heard anything and they replied that they had found new renters but the reservation was shorter so they could only provide a partial refund and that they already processed it. I let them know that I did not agree to a partial refund and that they needed to refund me in full. The next day they let me know that they would be refunding the remaining money.
> 
> I've booked directly with Disney now and while I downgrade from Deluxe to Moderate I did get free dining plan and no risk if I need to cancel again.
> 
> At the end of the day, happy ending for me. The owners have new bookings (assuming Davids stays in business for the 30% payout and Davids has 2 less bookings to worry about.
> 
> I think my resolution came about the way it did for a few reasons.
> 1. I was one of the earliest affected renters and I reached out early.
> 2. My owners were willing to work to fix what they could on their end and had points that were not expiring soon.
> 3. I kept on David's and didn't just send one email and walk away with faith that David's would make it right (plus the email communications would have come in very handy in the case of a credit card dispute.) I was approaching 20 different communications between phone and email.
> 4.  I also wonder if being from Canada helped as it would have been much easier for myself to launch legal action against David then it would be for others.



Wow....I'm impressed that you were able to receive responses from them.....multiple times!  I'm so tired of reaching out and receiving NOTHING in response.  I would even take a "We received your message.  Thanks for rebooking your renter.  We'll get the updated rental agreement out to you within the next week."  Seriously....I know they're insanely busy.  Yet, they have someone posting crap on their Facebook page.  I posted a comment about not being able to reach anyone and it was promptly deleted.  Yes, I realize that probably wasn't the place to put a post like that, which had nothing to do with the original post, but I hoped it would at least motivate someone to respond to me.  Nothing.  I've really been trying to give David's the benefit of the doubt......understanding their plight.....but I'm losing faith.


----------



## Krandor

Whatever comes from this, David's is at a minimum going to have to re-do their contract.    Here is what I'd do.  

1) In the contract put the expiration date of the points. Renters may not know all the details of borrowing, banking, etc and shouldn't have to so I'd put it as something like "you are renting x number of points that are valid though. a/b/c"
2) Change owner payment to 50% upfront and 50% on check-in
3) Add a clause for resort closure with two remedies.
a) if the poiints can be rebooked before they expire (and see #1 that date is included) then the points are simply rebooked with original owner
b) if points cannot be rebooked, owner keeps the 50%, renter gets the second 50% due to owner refunded as well as half David's fees which I believe should come out to around an actual 50% refund to the renter.  Shared pain for all but nobody loses everythinig.


----------



## ziravan

Krandor said:


> Whatever comes from this, David's is at a minimum going to have to re-do their contract.    Here is what I'd do.
> 
> 1) In the contract put the expiration date of the points. Renters may not know all the details of borrowing, banking, etc and shouldn't have to so I'd put it as something like "you are renting x number of points that are valid though. a/b/c"
> 2) Change owner payment to 50% upfront and 50% on check-in
> 3) Add a clause for resort closure with two remedies.
> a) if the poiints can be rebooked before they expire (and see #1 that date is included) then the points are simply rebooked with original owner
> b) if points cannot be rebooked, owner keeps the 50%, renter gets the second 50% due to owner refunded as well as half David's fees which I believe should come out to around an actual 50% refund to the renter.  Shared pain for all but nobody loses everythinig.


If he adds the expiration of the points, renters will come to believe that they can be rebooked for any reason before that day. His office will field a 100 calls a day from now on that has some variant of, “but the points are still good for eight more months; can’t you just work with me?!” - and that will frustrate his business model. There’s a reason he stressed no refunds, no changes and disclosing the expiration date of the points just adds bad feelings for people who need to change their dates.

Regarding 50% up front, not gonna happen. If anything, he’ll need to go to 80% to entice some owners back. David’s model is in danger enough without him implementing policies that would give him access to fewer owners. If he tried 50%, he’d never find enough owners to even make this voucher plan work, much less to actually make money in the future.


----------



## McCrae

DIsney have cancelled the reservation I had for renters and returned points to me.
David’s have advised as far as they are concerned I have completed my contractual obligations to them, regardless of me re renting the points or not. I am not required to make any refund. Any dispute with the renter will between them and I have no liability.


----------



## PrincessNelly

Krandor said:


> Whatever comes from this, David's is at a minimum going to have to re-do their contract.    Here is what I'd do.
> 
> 1) In the contract put the expiration date of the points. Renters may not know all the details of borrowing, banking, etc and shouldn't have to so I'd put it as something like "you are renting x number of points that are valid though. a/b/c"
> 2) Change owner payment to 50% upfront and 50% on check-in
> 3) Add a clause for resort closure with two remedies.
> a) if the poiints can be rebooked before they expire (and see #1 that date is included) then the points are simply rebooked with original owner
> b) if points cannot be rebooked, owner keeps the 50%, renter gets the second 50% due to owner refunded as well as half David's fees which I believe should come out to around an actual 50% refund to the renter.  Shared pain for all but nobody loses everythinig.


I just can't see people jumping to rent knowing they'd only get back 47% if the resort closed. To be honest, I know a lot of people who outright have stated they won't rent anymore because of this.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

ziravan said:


> If he adds the expiration of the points, renters will come to believe that they can be rebooked for any reason before that day. His office will field a 100 calls a day from now on that has some variant of, “but the points are still good for eight more months; can’t you just work with me?!” - and that will frustrate his business model. There’s a reason he stressed no refunds, no changes and disclosing the expiration date of the points just adds bad feelings for people who need to change their dates.
> 
> Regarding 50% up front, not gonna happen. If anything, he’ll need to go to 80% to entice some owners back. David’s model is in danger enough without him implementing policies that would give him access to fewer owners. If he tried 50%, he’d never find enough owners to even make this voucher plan work, much less to actually make money in the future.



I agree with you. What I think will have to happen to keep owners and renters coming is going to have to come out of the company’s pocket. That only makes sense, both parties currently have good reason to be unhappy with status quo.

It’s likely going to require a price drop for renters, while subsequently keeping owner’s portion the same or very close to what it is now, which a larger portion going to them upfront.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

PrincessNelly said:


> I just can't see people jumping to rent knowing they'd only get back 47% if the resort closed. To be honest, I know a lot of people who outright have stated they won't rent anymore because of this.



Actually, I think a guaranteed and defined no fighting about it portion coming back in the event of a closure makes renting a little more appealing than it is right now. Not that we will be doing it again, but I do think it helps.

It’s not just the money lost, it’s the frustration of dealing with this entire thing, the shady actions, the wishy washy behaviour, the poor communication, the insurance issues, etc.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

McCrae said:


> DIsney have cancelled the reservation I had for renters and returned points to me.
> David’s have advised as far as they are concerned I have completed my contractual obligations to them, regardless of me re renting the points or not. I am not required to make any refund. Any dispute with the renter will between them and I have no liability.



What is he saying about the 30%?


----------



## McCrae

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> What is he saying about the 30%?


I didn’t ask for further clarification on that.


----------



## McCrae

PrincessNelly said:


> I just can't see people jumping to rent knowing they'd only get back 47% if the resort closed. To be honest, I know a lot of people who outright have stated they won't rent anymore because of this.



You will be surprised what risks some people will accept for a discount.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

It would be great if you could copy and past the letter.  IMO that is exactly correct as the contracts currently exist.   Although it might, depending on the expiration of the dates seem harsh and unfair to the renters.


McCrae said:


> DIsney have cancelled the reservation I had for renters and returned points to me.
> David’s have advised as far as they are concerned I have completed my contractual obligations to them, regardless of me re renting the points or not. I am not required to make any refund. Any dispute with the renter will between them and I have no liability.


----------



## StitchesGr8Fan

I think David’s is going to go under, at least in its current form. He may be back with a new company name and new contract, and maybe new business practices. But I think the vouchers will be worthless.


----------



## badeacon

McCrae said:


> DIsney have cancelled the reservation I had for renters and returned points to me.
> David’s have advised as far as they are concerned I have completed my contractual obligations to them, regardless of me re renting the points or not. I am not required to make any refund. Any dispute with the renter will between them and I have no liability.


What is the use year of your points and do they expire soon? Maybe that is why because David's knows that points are not really useable to them.


----------



## Amymouse13

StitchesGr8Fan said:


> I think David’s is going to go under, at least in its current form. He may be back with a new company name and new contract, and maybe new business practices. But I think the vouchers will be worthless.



Especially based on what McCrea said above... Disney refunded their points and they got to keep the money.  No way David can produce vouchers out of thin air.  Whether or not that actually fulfills ones obligation might be subject to an actual lawyer not one of David's staff members is another issue.  Best course for renter is chargeback and citing this action.  Proof vouchers will end up worthless if owners get to eat and keep cake.


----------



## McCrae

badeacon said:


> What is the use year of your points and do they expire soon? Maybe that is why because David's knows that points are not really useable to them.


 The points can be used, they can be banked if required.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> Especially based on what McCrea said above... Disney refunded their points and they got to keep the money.  No way David can produce vouchers out of thin air.  Whether or not that actually fulfills ones obligation might be subject to an actual lawyer not one of David's staff members is another issue.  Best course for renter is chargeback and citing this action.  Proof vouchers will end up worthless if owners get to eat and keep cake.


I don’t want to make anything from this. The update makes it more likely I will agree to re-rent the points.


----------



## Galun

PrincessNelly said:


> I just can't see people jumping to rent knowing they'd only get back 47% if the resort closed. To be honest, I know a lot of people who outright have stated they won't rent anymore because of this.



Disney had shut down three times in its history, each time for one day.  We are looking at an unprecedented closure of at least 1.5 months.  The world is going to get better at responding if this happens again.

People have short memories.  In a couple years, do you rent to get the big discount vs cash rate, or do you plan on the unprecedented event of extended closure happening again?

I agre with another poster that the owners fee probably need to go up to get owners to give him points to rent.  Apparently the $4.5 point broker premium doens’t protect me all that much after all.  I am going to need more money from him up front.  Otherwise I will just go back to the rent / trade board myself.


----------



## cvjw

toniosmom said:


> Wow....I'm impressed that you were able to receive responses from them.....multiple times!  I'm so tired of reaching out and receiving NOTHING in response.  I would even take a "We received your message.  Thanks for rebooking your renter.  We'll get the updated rental agreement out to you within the next week."  Seriously....I know they're insanely busy.  Yet, they have someone posting crap on their Facebook page.  I posted a comment about not being able to reach anyone and it was promptly deleted.  Yes, I realize that probably wasn't the place to put a post like that, which had nothing to do with the original post, but I hoped it would at least motivate someone to respond to me.  Nothing.  I've really been trying to give David's the benefit of the doubt......understanding their plight.....but I'm losing faith.



Do you have a Comcast email?  If so, David’s does not receive them. This happened several months ago, and apparently their IT can’t find a fix for it.

If anyone is trying to reach David’s with a Comcast email, save yourselves the headache and use another email


----------



## ziravan

Galun said:


> Disney had shut down three times in its history, each time for one day.  We are looking at an unprecedented closure of at least 1.5 months.  The world is going to get better at responding if this happens again.
> 
> People have short memories.  In a couple years, do you rent to get the big discount vs cash rate, or do you plan on the unprecedented event of extended closure happening again?
> 
> I agre with another poster that the owners fee probably need to go up to get owners to give him points to rent.  Apparently the $4.5 point broker premium doens’t protect me all that much after all.  I am going to need more money from him up front.  Otherwise I will just go back to the rent / trade board myself.


The message for both owners and renters isn’t going to be not to rent.

No,

The take home message is going to be that the brokers provide little protection and certainly not enough to justify their price.


----------



## toniosmom

cvjw said:


> Do you have a Comcast email?  If so, David’s does not receive them. This happened several months ago, and apparently their IT can’t find a fix for it.
> 
> If anyone is trying to reach David’s with a Comcast email, save yourselves the headache and use another email


Interesting.  My entire communication with them in the past has been via my Comcast email account and I've had no issues.  Is this something new?


----------



## cvjw

toniosmom said:


> Interesting.  My entire communication with them in the past has been via my Comcast email account and I've had no issues.  Is this something new?



Yes. It has been a couple of months. If you are sending them emails from a Comcast email, they aren't getting them.  If they are emailing you to a Comcast email, you won’t get anything. They told me a while back about the issues. Obviously, they can’t fix it.

They email me from their personal email addresses when they need to get in touch with me.


----------



## CraigInPA

related, by only tangentially...

Comcast just outsourced their spam protection to a company called VADE. These people are incompetent and don't understand why DKIM and other sender policy frameworks have been created. They promise to de-list servers as spammers if the server owner sends them an email. It's so 1998 that it's pathetic.


----------



## Galun

ziravan said:


> The message for both owners and renters isn’t going to be not to rent.
> 
> No,
> 
> The take home message is going to be that the brokers provide little protection and certainly not enough to justify their price.



Brokers provide both convenience in finding renters, and perceived protection.  Emphasis on perceived, because it does turn out there are situations where the contract does not adequately address.

I will pay something to have a broker help me find renters where they explain all the DVC rules and have already done all the work on availability and points eligibility check.  But if I am taking on the risk of non payment, then my price to the broker surely won't be $4.50 per point going forward.


----------



## tubtruck

I have always considered that David charging $4.50 a point was pretty steep for the amount of work involved. At the same time though it has reduced the hassle for me in renting the points myself and having to deal with the problems which may occur. For that reason I have used him for the last 6 or 7 years.


----------



## cvjw

CraigInPA said:


> related, by only tangentially...
> 
> Comcast just outsourced their spam protection to a company called VADE. These people are incompetent and don't understand why DKIM and other sender policy frameworks have been created. They promise to de-list servers as spammers if the server owner sends them an email. It's so 1998 that it's pathetic.



They explained it to me that they got a new server and the new server is labeling all communication with Comcast emails as spam. Won’t let them go out or come in. They have tried to fix it, at least that is what they told me a few months ago. Obviously it isn’t fixed, because they are still emailing me from their personal email accounts.


----------



## karpy111

Sounds like a lot of you feel Davids is going out of business and his vouchers will be worthless.  If thats the case would you call your credit card for a charge back immediately.  
My trip isnt until May 2nd and it has not been cancelled as of yet.

Thanks!!!


----------



## lovethesun12

karpy111 said:


> Sounds like a lot of you feel Davids is going out of business and his vouchers will be worthless.  If thats the case would you call your credit card for a charge back immediately.
> My trip isnt until May 2nd and it has not been cancelled as of yet.
> 
> Thanks!!!


Personally I wouldn't because I'm not sure a bunch of people thinking he won't honor the reservation will be a valid argument at this point?


----------



## LAX

ziravan said:


> If he adds the expiration of the points, renters will come to believe that they can be rebooked for any reason before that day. His office will field a 100 calls a day from now on that has some variant of, “but the points are still good for eight more months; can’t you just work with me?!” - and that will frustrate his business model. There’s a reason he stressed no refunds, no changes and disclosing the expiration date of the points just adds bad feelings for people who need to change their dates.
> 
> *Regarding 50% up front, not gonna happen. If anything, he’ll need to go to 80% to entice some owners back.* David’s model is in danger enough without him implementing policies that would give him access to fewer owners. If he tried 50%, he’d never find enough owners to even make this voucher plan work, much less to actually make money in the future.



I was going to say the same. I would also add that if any broker can't shield me from potential risks, I am done working with any broker. As I mentioned before, if I am on hook should anything out of my control were to happen to a reservation I make months ago, what's the point of renting?

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> I was going to say the same. I would also add that if any broker can't shield me from potential risks, I am done working with any broker. As I mentioned before, if I am on hook should anything out of my control were to happen to a reservation I make months ago, what's the point of renting?
> 
> LAX


  Me too.  If I decide to rent again, I won’t go this route.


----------



## Frustrated renter

karpy111 said:


> Sounds like a lot of you feel Davids is going out of business and his vouchers will be worthless.  If thats the case would you call your credit card for a charge back immediately.
> My trip isnt until May 2nd and it has not been cancelled as of yet.
> 
> Thanks!!!


I wouldn’t try a charge back before the reservation is canceled.  Until then you can’t really claim the service hasn’t been provided as paid for.


----------



## Fred M

I haven’t been through all 50 pages, so apologies in advance if someone has covered this.

So if David’s guilts the owner into refunding the 70% payment, and the owner can’t use the points, the owner is taking on risk of loss because they are out the value of points and money. The renter takes on a risk for David’s being able to deliver on the travel credit. David’s is taking on no risk because they have 100% of the money. And if the owner can use the points, then the owner is made whole and the renter will assume 100% risk of loss.

If the owner makes a new reservation for the renter, or agrees to make a subsequent reservation for a new renter, and keeps the 70% payment, the owner is risking losing those points again and possibly the remaining payment if the new date can’t be accommodated by Disney. Renter has the same risk as before, and David’s has no risk again because they still have 30% of the owner’s payment plus their commission.

The only risk David’s has if the owner keeps the money and if the renter is able to pull back the funding, as with a credit card dispute.

Yeah, I’d tell them to pound sand.


----------



## DebbieB

LAX said:


> I was going to say the same. I would also add that if any broker can't shield me from potential risks, I am done working with any broker. As I mentioned before, if I am on hook should anything out of my control were to happen to a reservation I make months ago, what's the point of renting?
> 
> LAX



it will be interesting to see if contract wording is changed.  I don’t see how it can be changed to be acceptable to both owners and renters to reflect this situation.  Owners will not want to rent if they may have to refund and renters will not if they cannot get their money back if the resort is closed.


----------



## CraigInPA

This appeared in Insurance Journal today (google it to see the full article, I've only included the highlights below). So, it seems likely that even if David's has business interruption insurance, it is likely his carrier is rejecting COVID-19 claims. It also states that Force Majeure is for unforeseen external events, not something which could have been predicted (using SARS as an example of a previous pandemic). The original article also goes into how the insurance companies did not price their policies to include such an event, and how paying could cost trillions of dollars worldwide (which falls into the argument that they would be bankrupted by their own incompetence, so the contract they wrote should be set aside [good luck on that one]). This would be interesting to follow, but the litigation is likely to take years and some of the companies that might have been saved if the insurance was paid out will be long gone by the time it's settled.


*Canadian Insurers Hit with Lawsuit on Refusal to Pay COVID-19 Biz Income Claims*
A class action lawsuit has been filed against Canada’s top indemnity insurers for breach of contract in their refusal to pay business interruption claims from the COVID-19 crisis.

“Indemnity insurers are wrongfully refusing to honor their contracts,” said E.F. Anthony Merchant, a solicitor who works for Merchant Law, a Victoria, British Columbia-based law firm. “Business owners intended their insurance to cover against this. Insurance companies should pay.”

Insurance companies are claiming “force majeure” and refusing to pay, said Merchant, noting, however, that the insurance recovery for BI claims will be trillions worldwide. The COVID-19 crisis was a foreseeable event and it’s not force majeure, said Merchant in a statement, citing the examples of SARS, MERS and Avian flu, which all caused business interruptions. “The business interruption may be worse than the insurance industry expected, but it is not an excuse justifying a refusal to pay. Business is interrupted! Pay!” 

Named defendants in the suit are: Aviva Canada, Co-Operators General Insurance Co., Desjardins Financial Security Life Assurance Co., Economical Insurance, Intact Financial Corp., Lloyd’s Canada, Lloyd’s Underwriters, Northbridge General Insurance Corp., Royal & Sun Alliance, TD General Insurance Co., Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Co., Wynward Holdings and Wynward Insurance Group.

In an interview, Merchant said, the top 10-plus insurers were selected. “When you go to war, you want to pick a manageable number of enemies.”

Merchant explained that many business interruption policies use language that excludes airborne viruses. However, the COVID-19 virus can be transferred via handrails and keyboards, for example, so the virus should be part of BI property damage coverage. 

The class action was filed in the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Saskatchewan, with filing numbers of “500-06001056-205” in Quebec and “QBG797 of 2020” in Saskatchewan.


----------



## yankeesfan123

CraigInPA said:


> This appeared in Insurance Journal today (google it to see the full article, I've only included the highlights below). So, it seems likely that even if David's has business interruption insurance, it is likely his carrier is rejecting COVID-19 claims. It also states that Force Majeure is for unforeseen external events, not something which could have been predicted (using SARS as an example of a previous pandemic). The original article also goes into how the insurance companies did not price their policies to include such an event, and how paying could cost trillions of dollars worldwide (which falls into the argument that they would be bankrupted by their own incompetence, so the contract they wrote should be set aside [good luck on that one]). This would be interesting to follow, but the litigation is likely to take years and some of the companies that might have been saved if the insurance was paid out will be long gone by the time it's settled.
> 
> 
> *Canadian Insurers Hit with Lawsuit on Refusal to Pay COVID-19 Biz Income Claims*
> A class action lawsuit has been filed against Canada’s top indemnity insurers for breach of contract in their refusal to pay business interruption claims from the COVID-19 crisis.
> 
> “Indemnity insurers are wrongfully refusing to honor their contracts,” said E.F. Anthony Merchant, a solicitor who works for Merchant Law, a Victoria, British Columbia-based law firm. “Business owners intended their insurance to cover against this. Insurance companies should pay.”
> 
> Insurance companies are claiming “force majeure” and refusing to pay, said Merchant, noting, however, that the insurance recovery for BI claims will be trillions worldwide. The COVID-19 crisis was a foreseeable event and it’s not force majeure, said Merchant in a statement, citing the examples of SARS, MERS and Avian flu, which all caused business interruptions. “The business interruption may be worse than the insurance industry expected, but it is not an excuse justifying a refusal to pay. Business is interrupted! Pay!”
> 
> Named defendants in the suit are: Aviva Canada, Co-Operators General Insurance Co., Desjardins Financial Security Life Assurance Co., Economical Insurance, Intact Financial Corp., Lloyd’s Canada, Lloyd’s Underwriters, Northbridge General Insurance Corp., Royal & Sun Alliance, TD General Insurance Co., Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Co., Wynward Holdings and Wynward Insurance Group.
> 
> In an interview, Merchant said, the top 10-plus insurers were selected. “When you go to war, you want to pick a manageable number of enemies.”
> 
> Merchant explained that many business interruption policies use language that excludes airborne viruses. However, the COVID-19 virus can be transferred via handrails and keyboards, for example, so the virus should be part of BI property damage coverage.
> 
> The class action was filed in the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Saskatchewan, with filing numbers of “500-06001056-205” in Quebec and “QBG797 of 2020” in Saskatchewan.


There are certain legislatures in the US that are putting forth bills to require insurance companies to cover this under business interruption insurance even though the insurance policy doesn’t cover it.

basically, the legislature wants to force insurance companies to cover something that the insurance policy doesn’t cover (even if the business has business interruption coverage). MA, NJ, and Ohio to my knowledge have introduced bills.

Edit: sorry this is so off topic!


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

This is thought provoking.  Thank you for taking the time.   Let me ask you a question.  Does this surprise you?  It seems to me denying claims is standard insurance company practice.



CraigInPA said:


> This appeared in Insurance Journal today (google it to see the full article, I've only included the highlights below). So, it seems likely that even if David's has business interruption insurance, it is likely his carrier is rejecting COVID-19 claims. It also states that Force Majeure is for unforeseen external events, not something which could have been predicted (using SARS as an example of a previous pandemic). The original article also goes into how the insurance companies did not price their policies to include such an event, and how paying could cost trillions of dollars worldwide (which falls into the argument that they would be bankrupted by their own incompetence, so the contract they wrote should be set aside [good luck on that one]). This would be interesting to follow, but the litigation is likely to take years and some of the companies that might have been saved if the insurance was paid out will be long gone by the time it's settled.
> 
> 
> *Canadian Insurers Hit with Lawsuit on Refusal to Pay COVID-19 Biz Income Claims*
> A class action lawsuit has been filed against Canada’s top indemnity insurers for breach of contract in their refusal to pay business interruption claims from the COVID-19 crisis.
> 
> “Indemnity insurers are wrongfully refusing to honor their contracts,” said E.F. Anthony Merchant, a solicitor who works for Merchant Law, a Victoria, British Columbia-based law firm. “Business owners intended their insurance to cover against this. Insurance companies should pay.”
> 
> Insurance companies are claiming “force majeure” and refusing to pay, said Merchant, noting, however, that the insurance recovery for BI claims will be trillions worldwide. The COVID-19 crisis was a foreseeable event and it’s not force majeure, said Merchant in a statement, citing the examples of SARS, MERS and Avian flu, which all caused business interruptions. “The business interruption may be worse than the insurance industry expected, but it is not an excuse justifying a refusal to pay. Business is interrupted! Pay!”
> 
> Named defendants in the suit are: Aviva Canada, Co-Operators General Insurance Co., Desjardins Financial Security Life Assurance Co., Economical Insurance, Intact Financial Corp., Lloyd’s Canada, Lloyd’s Underwriters, Northbridge General Insurance Corp., Royal & Sun Alliance, TD General Insurance Co., Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Co., Wynward Holdings and Wynward Insurance Group.
> 
> In an interview, Merchant said, the top 10-plus insurers were selected. “When you go to war, you want to pick a manageable number of enemies.”
> 
> Merchant explained that many business interruption policies use language that excludes airborne viruses. However, the COVID-19 virus can be transferred via handrails and keyboards, for example, so the virus should be part of BI property damage coverage.
> 
> The class action was filed in the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Saskatchewan, with filing numbers of “500-06001056-205” in Quebec and “QBG797 of 2020” in Saskatchewan.


----------



## CraigInPA

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> This is thought provoking.  Thank you for taking the time.   Let me ask you a question.  Does this surprise you?  It seems to me denying claims is standard insurance company practice.



In early February, the ABA weekly newsletter predicted there would be a huge spike in COVID-19 cases, including liability for failing to prevent workplace infection, liability for failing to prevent it in nursing homes, prisons, homeless shelters (etc...), and claims against insurance companies which balk at paying out claims for business interruption insurance. So, no, it doesn't surprise me at all that insurance companies have drawn a line in the sand and said they aren't paying, nor does it surprise me that there is an attorney opening a mass tort case against the largest insurers in Canada.

Back to the original reason I posted it, however... David's claim is that neither party is at fault, so the contract is void, is invalidated at this point, now that we know that Canadian law appears to treat force majeure as unforeseeable events by third parties, not just actions by third parties (which is the prevailing opinion in US law). As such, I think we're back to the point that the contract is valid, and he as the broker is ultimately responsible to both parties for his own incompetence in drafting the contract.


----------



## Angeliki19

Grnl706 said:


> I mailed off a letter to my Owner yesterday so I definitely don't think its weird! I just explained how I got the address at the very beginning.


Good luck!! Keep us posted!


----------



## zskid00

yankeesfan123 said:


> There are certain legislatures in the US that are putting forth bills to require insurance companies to cover this under business interruption insurance even though the insurance policy doesn’t cover it.
> 
> *basically, the legislature wants to force insurance companies to cover something that the insurance policy doesn’t cover* (even if the business has business interruption coverage). MA, NJ, and Ohio to my knowledge have introduced bills.



Exactly this!  Some of you don't understand that insurance policies have very specific terms for what they cover and do not cover.  That is how your risk gets priced accurately and reserved for potential losses by the insurance companies.  Just because you think this pandemic should be covered by business interruption coverage does not make it so.  Read your insurance policies!  Don't put insurance companies on the hook after the fact because you didn't know what you were signing up for.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I think reading what you sign is always good advice for anyone.  Of course anyone knowing that they are not an expert on insurance law nor insurance contracts, that they did not choose the language of the policy; that the insurance company would not make single policy change for them means advising them to contact a really good insurance attorney if this becomes an issue if far better advice.

Whether or not the insurance company is on a hook or not is a conclusion that a disinterest 3rd party should make.....someone like a Judge.  Not someone who stands to keep millions and millions of dollars by just saying "NO" and don't bother me again.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued?  My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed.  I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's.  Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that?  A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September.  I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window.  A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open".  Any suggestions?


----------



## toniosmom

zskid00 said:


> Exactly this!  Some of you don't understand that insurance policies have very specific terms for what they cover and do not cover.  That is how your risk gets priced accurately and reserved for potential losses by the insurance companies.  Just because you think this pandemic should be covered by business interruption coverage does not make it so.  Read your insurance policies!  Don't put insurance companies on the hook after the fact because you didn't know what you were signing up for.


I agree.  I just booked our airline flight for November and bought the insurance.  I got an email from the carrier indicating that the policy does NOT cover COVID19 or pandemics unless you get sick from it before (and can't travel) or during the trip.  Insurance companies are fast and furiously updating their policies now.


----------



## toniosmom

foodiddiedoo said:


> Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued?  My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed.  I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's.  Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that?  A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September.  I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window.  A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open".  Any suggestions?


Disney is cancelling reservations on a weekly basis.  My guess is that your reservation will be cancelled by them by some time next week.  Not sure if you should initiate the chargeback until then.


----------



## Matty B13

toniosmom said:


> Insurance companies are fast and furiously updating their policies now.


Yep, soon they won't cover anything for any reason........


----------



## toniosmom

I heard from David's.....finally!  I took the advice of someone here and sent them an email from a non-Comcast account.  They responded the next day with the updated rental agreement!  They did say they are having a problem with Comcast email accounts, so if you fall into that category like me, try sending them an email from a non-Comcast account.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

toniosmom said:


> I heard from David's.....finally!  I took the advice of someone here and sent them an email from a non-Comcast account.  They responded the next day with the updated rental agreement!  They did say they are having a problem with Comcast email accounts, so if you fall into that category like me, try sending them an email from a non-Comcast account.


And what did they say? Just another plate email about giving a credit?


----------



## Dracula

foodiddiedoo said:


> Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued?  My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed.  I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's.  Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that?  A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September.  I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window.  A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open".  Any suggestions?


I don't think you have any grounds to charge back the payment to David's until your reservation is canceled, and even then you should first make a bona fide effort to obtain a refund from David's. US airlines have been recently requested by DOT to give cash refunds for canceled flights, but Canadian and European airlines are currently issuing credit vouchers, just like David's.


----------



## LAX

Matty B13 said:


> Yep, soon they won't cover anything for any reason........



Well, as long as you are willing to pay the premium, they will cover anything. The point I am trying to make is whether the cost of insurance would actually be worth the potential risks.

LAX


----------



## DebbieB

I work for a major insurance company.  Business Interruption covers income loss after a covered property claim (like a fire).  There’s no property claim with this for Business Interruption to apply.  There has to be a direct physical loss to the premises described.


----------



## Matty B13

LAX said:


> Well, as long as you are willing to pay the premium, they will cover anything. The point I am trying to make is whether the cost of insurance would actually be worth the potential risks.


Yeah, for the cost of the insurance for renting DVC points would probably make it the same as a cash reservation.


----------



## Dracula

Matty B13 said:


> Yeah, for the cost of the insurance for renting DVC points would probably make it the same as a cash reservation.


It is possible albeit unlikely, but a cash reservation would still not cover you against sickness in the family, lost flights etc. That is what a comprehensive travel insurance is for, and I think Disney also advises purchasing travel insurance for cash reservations.


----------



## Matty B13

Dracula said:


> It is possible albeit unlikely, but a cash reservation would still not cover you against sickness in the family, lost flights etc. That is what a comprehensive travel insurance is for, and I think Disney also advises purchasing travel insurance for cash reservations.


A cash reservation has a much more generous cancellation policy than a DVC point rental, most times.


----------



## Dracula

Matty B13 said:


> A cash reservation has a much more generous cancellation policy than a DVC point rental, most times.


Without a doubt, David's contracts are certainly non-cancelable, non-refundable - so the cash reservations are better as far as canceling goes. However, most owners would try to accommodate a renter in a difficult situation, based on point expiration and holding rules. By the way, many hotels offer non-refundable rates at just 5-10% discount vs. a refundable ones, being able to score a 30-50% discount with David's is quite a steal. And if renters get to do a credit card chargeback with David's, or accept a credit voucher, they should be able to mitigate the loss due to coronavirus.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Without a doubt, David's contracts are certainly non-cancelable, non-refundable - so the cash reservations are better as far as canceling goes. However, most owners would try to accommodate a renter in a difficult situation, based on point expiration and holding rules. By the way, many hotels offer non-refundable rates at just 5-10% discount vs. a refundable ones, being able to score a 30-50% discount with David's is quite a steal. And if renters get to do a credit card chargeback with David's, or accept a credit voucher, they should be able to mitigate the loss due to coronavirus.



I believe room only with Disney is a 5 day cancelation for full refund, or if less than 5 it’s one night,

A package looses only $200 up to  2 days before.  So, adding Insurance to a rental may not be enough of a substantial savings in some cases to assume the risk, especially now.

Like I said, my renter is saving about $600 on his Poly reservation.  And that is before any insurance.


----------



## LAX

Dracula said:


> Without a doubt, David's contracts are certainly non-cancelable, non-refundable - so the cash reservations are better as far as canceling goes. However, most owners would try to accommodate a renter in a difficult situation, based on point expiration and holding rules. By the way, many hotels offer non-refundable rates at just 5-10% discount vs. a refundable ones, being able to score a 30-50% discount with David's is quite a steal. And if renters get to do a credit card chargeback with David's, or accept a credit voucher, they should be able to mitigate the loss due to coronavirus.



Regardless of what happens to David's, the DVC rental market is going to take a big hit in the near term. Not only will the stories of people losing thousands of dollars still be fresh in their minds, significant discounts will be offered by many travel providers (Disney included) to lure back vacationers. That's not even factoring the negative impact on travel by a recession.

However, I am not entirely convinced that the commercial DVC rental market will be entirely gone a couple of years from now. If there is significant discount to be had on DVC villas, some people would still be willing to take a chance despite of the risks. Is it going to be as hot as it was before this pandemic? Who knows? But probably not.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> Regardless of what happens to David's, the DVC rental market is going to take a big hit in the near term. Not only will the stories of people losing thousands of dollars still be fresh in their minds, significant discounts will be offered by many travel providers (Disney included) to lure back vacationers. That's not even factoring the negative impact on travel by a recession.
> 
> However, I am not entirely convinced that the commercial DVC rental market will be entirely gone a couple of years from now. If there is significant discount to be had on DVC villas, some people would still be willing to take a chance despite of the risks. Is it going to be as hot as it was before this pandemic? Who knows? But probably not.
> 
> LAX



I agree and I do think that if contracts do include this, renters and owners will be able to go in with solid understanding of what would happen, so at least, everyone will feel informed.


----------



## CastAStone

McCrae said:


> You will be surprised what risks some people will accept for a discount.


They’re not accepting the risk for a discount, they’re accepting it for an upgrade; most people spend what they can on vacation, so it’s safe to assume that the couldn’t afford full price.

Why is this distinction important?

If I get a 50% discount off of what I can afford to pay but 1% of the time I lose my money entirely I obviously should accept that risk; I can reschedule if needed with the other 50% of my money.

If I can spend the only $3000 I have for vacation hotels for the next 24 months on a refundable hotel room or on an upgraded villa with a 1% chance I’ll lose all my money and can’t go on vacation at all, that’s a tougher risk to accept.


----------



## tubtruck

I booked a night at the Miami airport Sheraton today for August.
The rate to cancel up to 24 hours before was $151. The pay upfront none cancelable rate was $150. With regard to EU airlines they have been given permission to offer vouchers instead of refunds. They are offering up to 1 year vouchers with the option of a refund if not used within that time. In other words to smooth out their cash flow. The EU is soon expected to allow theee vouchers to be extended to 2 years.
The initial airline contracts were to refund in cash. The change had been made to prevent masses of companies going bankrupt over this. It seems fairly sensible to me and the best way out of this mess overall for everyone rather than solicitors and liquidation companies making a Fortune at everyone else’s loss.


----------



## Matty B13

Sandisw said:


> Like I said, my renter is saving about $600 on his Poly reservation.  And that is before any insurance.


And also getting a much nicer room, at least I think so, compared to a standard Poly hotel room.


----------



## Sandisw

Matty B13 said:


> And also getting a much nicer room, at least I think so, compared to a standard Poly hotel room.



That was comparing a Poly studio via cash...so same room,

 I still dont consider a $600 savings worth the risk of losing $2200.


----------



## LAX

Sandisw said:


> That was comparing a Poly studio via cash...so same room,
> 
> I still dont consider a $600 savings worth the risk of losing $2200.



Just curious. Is that $600 off of the best discounted rates Disney had at the time of booking? Perhaps the savings would be greater when compared to other more commonly available, but less discounted rates? I know some companies offer pretty good discounts that are reserved for particular groups.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

LAX said:


> Just curious. Is that $600 off of the best discounted rates Disney had at the time of booking? Perhaps the savings would be greater when compared to other more commonly available, but less discounted rates? I know some companies offer pretty good discounts that are reserved for particular groups.
> 
> LAX



That was what was showing as a room only discount when I made the reservation for the renter,

So, it may or may not be as high of a discount one could get,  If that was the case then the savings would be even less,

But, at the time, it was a $600 savings based on the quote I got on Disney site,


----------



## jimbostacks

Hey gang. I am sorry I am late to the game here. I am an owner and have rescheduled a reservation and have given back 70% to a different reservation. I have some small rentals on July and September.   I tried paging through the posts. But what is the latest is David’s still working, offering vouchers?  Am I on my own for the Last 30%?    Or all unknown still?   Thanks


----------



## Brian Noble

karpy111 said:


> Sounds like a lot of you feel Davids is going out of business and his vouchers will be worthless. If thats the case would you call your credit card for a charge back immediately.
> My trip isnt until May 2nd and it has not been cancelled as of yet.


As others upthread have poasted, I think you need to wait for a cancellation and a statement that it won't be refunded (the offer of a voucher would probably be enough for me to call that "won't be refunded.")



LAX said:


> Well, as long as you are willing to pay the premium, they will cover anything. The point I am trying to make is whether the cost of insurance would actually be worth the potential risks.


Absolutely! I was an undergraduate at UC Berkeley, and our fraternity house sat one block south of the Hayward Fault. It's built in a way that is almost optimally bad for an earthquake zone, the shape of an "L" with arms of different lengths. Those arms resonate at different frequences, and in a significant earthquake along that fault the house is very likely to collapse. (As you can imagine, this is no longer to code, but sadly it was when it was built.) Our alumni association owned the house, and looked into what earthquake insurance would cost. The premium quoted was roughly 1/3 of the value of the house.

We passed.

That same fault runs directly under California Memorial Stadium, and they spent something north of $300M to retrofit it.

I was in the house when Loma Prieta hit, and there were some very ominous creaks to the point that I was terrified. Luckily, it was a quake along the San Andreas fault, not the Hayward. But it did a *lot* of damage in the Bay Area.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Sandisw said:


> That was comparing a Poly studio via cash...so same room,
> 
> I still dont consider a $600 savings worth the risk of losing $2200.


But Disney Reservation Center may not have much inventory if owners use their own points and don't want to trade out for the Disney Collection.  People who used points for the Disney Collection are realizing that they cannot use those points for a DVC reservation, just another Disney Collection.  Disney Collection stays on points might only be newer owners who haven't lived through these days.


----------



## Sandisw

Deb & Bill said:


> But Disney Reservation Center may not have much inventory if owners use their own points and don't want to trade out for the Disney Collection.  People who used points for the Disney Collection are realizing that they cannot use those points for a DVC reservation, just another Disney Collection.  Disney Collection stays on points might only be newer owners who haven't lived through these days.



I wasn’t clear.  I was trying to see how much my renter was saving booking a Poly studio with me through David’s Vs. as a cash guest through Disney.

So, i went to Disney to price out his stay as if he were a cash guest using the discount that showed up.  It was about $600 more than what he was paying via David’s.

For me, I am not sure that is such a substantial savings to risk losing your money, if the contract included no refunds even if the resort is closed,


----------



## Galun

Sandisw said:


> That was comparing a Poly studio via cash...so same room,
> 
> I still dont consider a $600 savings worth the risk of losing $2200.



Why not?  Do you think there is a higher than 25% chance that the resort will close?  Because you are giving up saving $600 to not risk losing $2200.

The only thing that changed was the newly exposed chance of loss with extended resort shut down due to pandemic.  Again, company wide resort shutdown happened three times in the history of Disney prior to this, and each time for one day.  Last major pandemic was the Spanish flu in 1918.  We are talking about hundred year events here.


----------



## Dracula

Galun said:


> Why not?  Do you think there is a higher than 25% chance that the resort will close?  Because you are giving up saving $600 to not risk losing $2200.
> 
> The only thing that changed was the newly exposed chance of loss with extended resort shut down due to pandemic.  Again, company wide resort shutdown happened three times in the history of Disney prior to this, and each time for one day.  Last major pandemic was the Spanish flu in 1918.  We are talking about hundred year events here.


OK, but why should the renter bear all the risk of loss? A formula should be found, either by brokers or by the owners community, in which such risks are shared by owners and renters.


----------



## LAX

Dracula said:


> OK, but *why should the renter bear all the risk of loss*? A formula should be found, either by brokers or by the owners community, in which such risks are shared by owners and renters.



Because the savings that get passed onto the renters are associated with those risks. I have mentioned this before. If I have to worry about losing a percentage of the points I am renting should something out of my control occur 10 months from now, what's the point of renting them out? I would rather gift them out to friends and family, which would have given me more peace of mind.

LAX


----------



## yankeesfan123

LAX said:


> Because the savings that get passed onto the renters are associated with those risks. I have mentioned this before. If I have to worry about losing a percentage of the points I am renting should something out of my control occur 10 months from now, what's the point of renting them out? I would rather gift them out to friends and family, which would have given me more peace of mind.
> 
> LAX


Then gift them out.


----------



## Marionnette

yankeesfan123 said:


> Then gift them out.


Or don't rent if no changes/no refunds means something other than NO CHANGES and NO REFUNDS to you.


----------



## poofyo101

Dracula said:


> OK, but why should the renter bear all the risk of loss? A formula should be found, either by brokers or by the owners community, in which such risks are shared by owners and renters.


If the owners want to bear some risk thats fine, but then the price per point rental average has to go up.


----------



## VeroGuy

So a friend of mine who is an owner sent me an email from Disney about their banked points that were due to expire. They have banked points expiring in August and have until mid June to bank those points with RCI. That is a 6 week window to bank banked points that will then be good for 2 years with RCI.

I am still of the opinion that owners are really in control here. All those with canceled reservations were returned your points and you are now holding 70% of the money also. As I have stated in previous pages I think an owner should be willing to work with David’s and/or the renter to return the money they were paid.

Thoughts?


----------



## McCrae

VeroGuy said:


> So a friend of mine who is an owner sent me an email from Disney about their banked points that were due to expire. They have banked points expiring in August and have until mid June to bank those points with RCI. That is a 6 week window to bank banked points that will then be good for 2 years with RCI.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that owners are really in control here. All those with canceled reservations were returned your points and you are now holding 70% of the money also. As I have stated in previous pages I think an owner should be willing to work with David’s and/or the renter to return the money they were paid.
> 
> Thoughts?



Why should the owner lose out?


----------



## Angeliki19

Question about the credit and chargebacks.. is my ultimate goal is to rebook, the credit is fine for me as long as I get to use it. It doesn’t really matter to me which owner I am renting with. Are people just worried that David’s will go out of business and that’s why the credit isn’t a good option for them and they would prefer a chargeback?


----------



## VeroGuy

McCrae said:


> Why should the owner lose out?


The owner isn’t losing out if the banked points can be transferred to RCI where they can be used on a non-disney vacation.

Yes it would be a non-disney vacation but the points would still be usable.
The email also stated that Disney sis still looking into how to handle owners points that expired during all of this and they were waiting to see how long this lasted before coming to a final decision.


----------



## VeroGuy

Angeliki19 said:


> Question about the credit and chargebacks.. is my ultimate goal is to rebook, the credit is fine for me as long as I get to use it. It doesn’t really matter to me which owner I am renting with. Are people just worried that David’s will go out of business and that’s why the credit isn’t a good option for them and they would prefer a chargeback?



Yes that is what people seem to be worried about, my self included. I would be fine with rebooking or a voucher if that voucher was worth something or could be backed up by an insurance policy purchased by David’s to ensure that it has some value. At this point I’m not sure it does have any value.


----------



## McCrae

VeroGuy said:


> The owner isn’t losing out if the banked points can be transferred to RCI where they can be used on a non-disney vacation.
> 
> Yes it would be a non-disney vacation but the points would still be usable.
> The email also stated that Disney sis still looking into how to handle owners points that expired during all of this and they were waiting to see how long this lasted before coming to a final decision.



What you Do you suggest if none of these options work for the owner? Maybe points will expire and become worthless. Perhaps options available through RCI are not attractive.

David’s position is that the contract the owner has is with him and not an individual owner. Renters only have a contract with David’s.

Perhaps renters are not  aware that owners don’t have to do anything. David’s accepts the contract they have with him has been completed.  I could easily keep the points returned to me if I wanted to. I have no obligation to help anyone.  I like, many other owners however do want to help if we can.


----------



## Matty B13

VeroGuy said:


> So a friend of mine who is an owner sent me an email from Disney about their banked points that were due to expire. They have banked points expiring in August and have until mid June to bank those points with RCI. That is a 6 week window to bank banked points that will then be good for 2 years with RCI.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that owners are really in control here. All those with canceled reservations were returned your points and you are now holding 70% of the money also. As I have stated in previous pages I think an owner should be willing to work with David’s and/or the renter to return the money they were paid.
> 
> Thoughts?


Why do you think owners should be on the hook for all of this???? Most of them are already out $10k plus already to purchase the points to begin with.  If you want control of your reservation/points then you need to buy them yourself!  This is what my family did because we didn't like having someone else controlling our reservation.  If renters want the huge discounts off of their vacations then they need to take the risk and accept it.


----------



## zskid00

Renters aren't getting what they paid for.  Points are going back to owners and they have already received 70% of the value of those points.  If points are expiring and are not usable and can't be banked that's one thing, but I am going to guess owners can do something with those points.  Hopefully owners are willing to work with renters since they have paid 100% to David's and right now they have nothing to show for it.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Matty B13 said:


> Why do you think owners should be on the hook for all of this???? Most of them are already out $10k plus already to purchase the points to begin with.  If you want control of your reservation/points then you need to buy them yourself!  This is what my family did because we didn't like having someone else controlling our reservation.  If renters want the huge discounts off of their vacations then they need to take the risk and accept it.



What do the purchase price of points have to do with anything? With that huge chunk of change they’ve also purchased decades of points on top of this relatively small amount in question. We’re veering towards that weird territory again where it’s implied that owners are doing renters a favour renting their points out, as if they see no benefit too. Mutually beneficial relationship.

I thought we had moved past all this and we all united in our annoyance with the middle man lol.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Galun said:


> Why not?  Do you think there is a higher than 25% chance that the resort will close?  Because you are giving up saving $600 to not risk losing $2200.
> 
> The only thing that changed was the newly exposed chance of loss with extended resort shut down due to pandemic.  Again, company wide resort shutdown happened three times in the history of Disney prior to this, and each time for one day.  Last major pandemic was the Spanish flu in 1918.  We are talking about hundred year events here.



I agree that $600 is no longer enough in savings to rent here, assuming we’re not talking a very short reservation, like one night.

It’s not even just what this exposed. The booking process can be challenging as well. We generally require large amounts of points, which puts us in a position where we’re waiting a long time on the wait lists to get what we want. So we need both DVC availability to hold out and the perfect owner to come along. It has worked out mostly fine for us this long, but definitely plays a part (along with what this scenario exposed) as to why renting is almost definitely off the table for us without ridiculously large and unrealistic savings.


----------



## Dracula

zskid00 said:


> Renters aren't getting what they paid for.  Points are going back to owners and they have already received 70% of the value of those points.  If points are expiring and are not usable and can't be banked that's one thing, but I am going to guess owners can do something with those points.  Hopefully owners are willing to work with renters since they have paid 100% to David's and right now they have nothing to show for it.


I agree with you in principle - just wanted to clarify that owners did not get 70% of their points’ value, but 70% of the adjusted value after David retained its $4.50 to assume the transaction risk and act as an intermediary between owner and renter. This leaves owners with just about 50% of their points’ value.


----------



## Dracula

poofyo101 said:


> If the owners want to bear some risk thats fine, but then the price per point rental average has to go up.


Indeed, commensurate with the risk (one pandemic closing every 100 years).


----------



## VeroGuy

McCrae said:


> What you Do you suggest if none of these options work for the owner? Maybe points will expire and become worthless. Perhaps options available through RCI are not attractive.
> 
> David’s position is that the contract the owner has is with him and not an individual owner. Renters only have a contract with David’s.
> 
> Perhaps renters are not  aware that owners don’t have to do anything. David’s accepts the contract they have with him has been completed.  I could easily keep the points returned to me if I wanted to. I have no obligation to help anyone.  I like, many other owners however do want to help if we can.



I agree that the contract you signed is between you and David’s, just as the contract that the renter signed is between David’s and the renter. If David’s has accepted that the contract between the owner and him has been completed based on his contract language then I agree that the owner has no further obligation to do anything.

I am very great full for owners like you who are willing to help the renter and as I have stated before I don’t think it should all fall on the owner and would be more than willing to work with my owner and/or David’s to salvage somethingout of all this.

David’s is now stuck with trying to fulfill a contract between him and the renter which has not been completed as he can not produce a reservation for a stay. Hence why he is offering a voucher to the renter.

His poor contract language is what got his company in this predicament and he is going to pay dearly for that mistake by massive chargebacks, unfortunately.

I have said it before but will say it again, I don’t put sole blame or fault on the owner and would like to come to an amicable agreement between the three parties if at all possible.


----------



## lovethesun12

Marionnette said:


> Or don't rent if no changes/no refunds means something other than NO CHANGES and NO REFUNDS to you.


Many renters are fine with no changes and no refunds as outlined, as long as they receive the points they purchased to the best of the owner's ability (i.e., the owner attempts to minimize these unforseen damages).

I see 4 types of people here:
1) Renters who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook alternate dates/rooms/resorts/length of stay or take some sort of loss
2) Owners who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook the renter with a new contract offered or take the 70% return (because they are willing to use/rerent their points). (Disclaimer: I would include owners with distressed or recently expired points in this category and they should be made whole quickly if their points expire - this is the loss David's takes)
3) Renters who demand a 100% upfront refund solely focused on themselves
4) Owners who demand 100% of cash upfront solely focused on themselves

And then also David the mediator of all of the contracts.

I think the larger the number of people that opt for 1 and 2 the larger chance more people (including David's) will be made as close to whole and satisfied given the circumstances. In this case, EVERYONE is trying to minimize the damages for everyone else, (i.e., all victims) and there will be money available for helping those that are unable to rebook. No "what if this happens" or "what if that happens" - just take the best current option available at present because it is the option currently there.

The people that opt for 3 & 4 will result in the most difficulties and potentially largest damages. They are making no attempt to minimize the losses for the other person which could result in more loss for them (if it ever went to court), as well as David's.


----------



## McCrae

lovethesun12 said:


> Many renters are fine with no changes and no refunds as outlined, as long as they receive the points they purchased to the best of the owner's ability (i.e., the owner attempts to minimize these unforseen damages).
> 
> I see 4 types of people here:
> 1) Renters who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook alternate dates/rooms/resorts/length of stay or take some sort of loss
> 2) Owners who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook the renter with a new contract offered or take the 70% return (because they know they are able to use it. (Disclaimer: I would include owners with distressed or recently expired points in this category)
> 3) Renters who demand a 100% refund solely focused on themselves
> 4) Owners who demand 100% of cash upfront solely focused on themselves
> 
> And then also David the mediator of all of the contracts.
> 
> I think the larger the number of people that opt for 1 and 2 the larger chance more people (including David's) will be made as close to whole and satisfied given the circumstances. In this case, EVERYONE is trying to minimize the damages for everyone else, (i.e., all victims) and there will be money available for helping those that are unable to rebook. No what if this happens or what if that happens just take the best current option available at present because it is the option currently there.
> 
> The people that opt for 3 & 4 will result in the most difficulties and potentially largest damages. They are making no attempt to minimize the losses for the other person which could result in more loss for them (if it ever went to court), as well as David's.



As time has moved on we have more information. Whilst many owners think they have a relationship with the renter they made a reservation for, David’s does not regard it that way. If anything David’s policy and actions have been to distance owners from any clear link to a specific renter. Owners  are being asked to help David’s. In return they will be able to help renters.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

lovethesun12 said:


> Many renters are fine with no changes and no refunds as outlined, as long as they receive the points they purchased to the best of the owner's ability (i.e., the owner attempts to minimize these unforseen damages).
> 
> I see 4 types of people here:
> 1) Renters who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook alternate dates/rooms/resorts/length of stay or take some sort of loss
> 2) Owners who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook the renter with a new contract offered or take the 70% return (because they know they are able to use it. (Disclaimer: I would include owners with distressed or recently expired points in this category)
> 3) Renters who demand a 100% refund solely focused on themselves
> 4) Owners who demand 100% of cash upfront solely focused on themselves
> 
> And then also David the mediator of all of the contracts.
> 
> I think the larger the number of people that opt for 1 and 2 the larger chance more people (including David's) will be made as close to whole and satisfied given the circumstances. In this case, EVERYONE is trying to minimize the damages for everyone else, (i.e., all victims) and there will be money available for helping those that are unable to rebook. No what if this happens or what if that happens just take the best current option available at present because it is the option currently there.
> 
> The people that opt for 3 & 4 will result in the most difficulties and potentially largest damages. They are making no attempt to minimize the losses for the other person which could result in more loss for them (if it ever went to court), as well as David's.



I think the biggest problem here has been the breakdown in communication between all parties caused by David’s, leading to way more 3s and 4s than there would be otherwise. If David’s had been open and communicated well from the start I bet you see way more people willing to compromise and be patient.

Their own mishandling of this has led to owners who are scared to book again with their points and don’t trust that their other 30% will show up down the road so they want it now, and renters who have been given no choice but to attempt to get back the entire amount back by way of things like credit card disputes because they’re getting the run around from David’s.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

lovethesun12 said:


> Many renters are fine with no changes and no refunds as outlined, as long as they receive the points they purchased to the best of the owner's ability (i.e., the owner attempts to minimize these unforseen damages).
> 
> I see 4 types of people here:
> 1) Renters who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook alternate dates/rooms/resorts/length of stay or take some sort of loss
> 2) Owners who think all parties involved are doing their best given the circumstances, so they are trying to be flexible and willing to rebook the renter with a new contract offered or take the 70% return (because they know they are able to use it. (Disclaimer: I would include owners with distressed or recently expired points in this category)
> 3) Renters who demand a 100% refund solely focused on themselves
> 4) Owners who demand 100% of cash upfront solely focused on themselves
> 
> And then also David the mediator of all of the contracts.
> 
> I think the larger the number of people that opt for 1 and 2 the larger chance more people (including David's) will be made as close to whole and satisfied given the circumstances. In this case, EVERYONE is trying to minimize the damages for everyone else, (i.e., all victims) and there will be money available for helping those that are unable to rebook. No what if this happens or what if that happens just take the best current option available at present because it is the option currently there.
> 
> The people that opt for 3 & 4 will result in the most difficulties and potentially largest damages. They are making no attempt to minimize the losses for the other person which could result in more loss for them (if it ever went to court), as well as David's.


I think most people want to be in group 1 and 2 as well, but are so worried that David's business won't make it through this that they might not even be able to rebook.  I know I would love to reschedule my vacation to Hawaii, but at this point we have 0 idea when the country would be back to normal enough that Hawaii would even let tourism begin again.  Since none of us are WHO or CDC scientists, it's an almost impossible situation to predict when/where we will be able to go either later this year (or whenever this voucher would expire, since David's hasn't emailed any information on it and it's been two weeks since they "announced" thier solution).  I feel like we're going to devolve further into the groups 3 & 4 as David's is overstressed and perhaps too low in cash resources to be able to keep this plan afloat.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

DGsAtBLT said:


> I think the biggest problem here has been the breakdown in communication between all parties caused by David’s, leading to way more 3s and 4s than there would be otherwise. If David’s had been open and communicated well from the start I bet you see way more people willing to compromise and be patient.
> 
> Their own mishandling of this has led to owners who are scared to book again with their points and don’t trust that their other 30% will show up down the road so they want it now, and renters who have been given no choice but to attempt to get back the entire amount back by way of things like credit card disputes because they’re getting the run around from David’s.


Yes, one blanket "don't bother me email" when I asked if they could reschedule my vacation back early March, and one blanket "we're going to give you details on a credit at some point email" doesn't constitute communication.  In my earlier post, I said I was not the type of person who initiates chargebacks because I don't want to be a jerk, but the window of opportunity for me to do something with the bank will be closing very soon after the start of my canceled trip.  I hope David's steps up by then, but I imagine all the people whose vacations were canceled in March/early April are getting antsy if David's hasn't even reached out to do rebooking.  I also feel like I'd be kind of creepy to look up the owner online and try to contact them on my own.


----------



## Sandisw

Galun said:


> Why not?  Do you think there is a higher than 25% chance that the resort will close?  Because you are giving up saving $600 to not risk losing $2200.
> 
> The only thing that changed was the newly exposed chance of loss with extended resort shut down due to pandemic.  Again, company wide resort shutdown happened three times in the history of Disney prior to this, and each time for one day.  Last major pandemic was the Spanish flu in 1918.  We are talking about hundred year events here.



If contracts stated you'd lose the money if resorts closed, I am not convinced as many renters would view $600 savings as worth it, especially if you add in getting CFAR insurance,

Remember, a hurricane can damage resorts in a Florida ..so could a fire...

My opinion is that this event will make renters take pause, and what might have been an acceptable risk before this,  may not going forward.


----------



## Sandisw

Angeliki19 said:


> Question about the credit and chargebacks.. is my ultimate goal is to rebook, the credit is fine for me as long as I get to use it. It doesn’t really matter to me which owner I am renting with. Are people just worried that David’s will go out of business and that’s why the credit isn’t a good option for them and they would prefer a chargeback?



In my opinion, that is part of it.  But, given all that is happening, those vouchers require David to have enough owners willing to still use him to offer points for the reservation,

Right now, renters will have difficulty getting any reservation before January, simply because of normal DVC availability. Add in lots of owners rescheduling vacations, it’s pretty slim.

I can only speak for myself, but I won’t use hm again to rent points. The fact that he has asked owners not to try to work with the renters to help has made some owners weary.


----------



## CastAStone

Sandisw said:


> If contracts stated you'd lose the money if resorts closed, I am not convinced as many renters would view $600 savings as worth it, especially if you add in getting CFAR insurance,
> 
> Remember, a hurricane can damage resorts in a Florida ..so could a fire...
> 
> My opinion is that this event will make renters take pause, and what might have been an acceptable risk before this,  may not going forward.


Yes. Most people don’t have the cash reserves to price risk appropriately. They are gun shy. Its quite well researched. Its also well established that people are terrible at estimating the probability of low probability events, particularly when they’ve experienced them once. 

This experience would undoubtedly hurt DVC sale, resale, and rental even without the recession due to the perception of significant added risk. The question isn’t if but for how long.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> If contracts stated you'd lose the money if resorts closed, I am not convinced as many renters would view $600 savings as worth it, especially if you add in getting CFAR insurance,
> 
> Remember, a hurricane can damage resorts in a Florida ..so could a fire...
> 
> My opinion is that this event will make renters take pause, and what might have been an acceptable risk before this,  may not going forward.



Absolutely. The ease of booking and cancelling with Disney is of utmost importance to us now. TBH I don’t really have it in me for a make up trip planned a year out again either with how this one turned out.

As somewhat of an aside, out of all the various companies we had to work with here, Disney was excellent (with tickets), the airline was mediocre but expected, and an unexpected standout was Kingdom Strollers, who made cancelling very easy (maybe it always is, I don’t know) and was really easy to communicate with when a refund issue came up on our end.


----------



## Marionnette

DGsAtBLT said:


> What do the purchase price of points have to do with anything? With that huge chunk of change they’ve also purchased decades of points on top of this relatively small amount in question. We’re veering towards that weird territory again where it’s implied that owners are doing renters a favour renting their points out, as if they see no benefit too. Mutually beneficial relationship.
> 
> I thought we had moved past all this and we all united in our annoyance with the middle man lol.


Because the purchase price of the contract factors into the value of every point.

The owner paid a pretty price for their contracts. There’s a lost cost opportunity for those dollars spent. There may have been loans or mortgages which inflated the original cost per point over the original purchase price. That’s the risk the owner took.

The renter’s share of the risk is when they roll the dice and choose to rent DVC, knowing that they are not entitled to a refund or change if things go upside-down for them.

As @Matty B13 stated, if you don’t like the terms, don’t rent. Buy your own contract instead.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Marionnette said:


> Because the purchase price of the contract factors into the value of every point.
> 
> The owner paid a pretty price for their contracts. There’s a lost cost opportunity for those dollars spent. There may have been loans or mortgages which inflated the original cost per point over the original purchase price. That’s the risk the owner took.
> 
> The renter’s share of the risk is when they roll the dice and choose to rent DVC, knowing that they are not entitled to a refund or change if things go upside-down for them.
> 
> As @Matty B13 stated, if you don’t like the terms, don’t rent. Buy your own contract instead.



There’s two sides to this. If you don’t like the position renting out your points has put you in don’t rely on it to cover your costs. Only buy what you will use. Let your points expire. Etc. Putting the blame on the renters and owners in a situation where both protected themselves as best as they could have doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. On both sides many did everything right yet here we are in an unprecedented situation where the usual precautions and protections aren’t enough.

I also think its deceptive to look at the entire purchase price when you’re talking about a relatively small portion of that cost related to the amount of points in question as well as the related dues. And the vibe that owners don’t see benefit from these transactions.

If anything I think this has exposed a lot on both sides of the equation.


----------



## TheWheel

Marionnette said:


> Because the purchase price of the contract factors into the value of every point.
> 
> The owner paid a pretty price for their contracts. There’s a lost cost opportunity for those dollars spent. There may have been loans or mortgages which inflated the original cost per point over the original purchase price. That’s the risk the owner took.
> 
> The renter’s share of the risk is when they roll the dice and choose to rent DVC, knowing that they are not entitled to a refund or change if things go upside-down for them.
> 
> As @Matty B13 stated, if you don’t like the terms, don’t rent. Buy your own contract instead.


Except as a renter the David's contract stipulates you are entitled to a refund if accommodations are not available on day of check in. The risk the renter was accepting was outside of those parameters


----------



## Marionnette

DGsAtBLT said:


> There’s two sides to this. If you don’t like the position renting out your points has put you in don’t rely on it to cover your costs. Only buy what you will use. Let your points expire. Etc. Putting the blame on the renters and owners in a situation where both protected themselves as best as they could have doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. On both sides many did everything right yet here we are in an unprecedented situation where the usual precautions and protections aren’t enough.
> 
> I also think its deceptive to look at the entire purchase price when you’re talking about a relatively small portion of that cost related to the amount of points in question as well as the related dues. And the vibe that owners don’t see benefit from these transactions.
> 
> If anything I think this has exposed a lot on both sides of the equation.


It’s not “deceptive” to look at what those points costs the owner. If I buy a ton of bananas and I sell you a pound of bananas, that pound of bananas still has value. I think it’s disingenuous to imply that those points lack any value because they represent only a fraction of what the owner paid for their contracts.


----------



## Marionnette

TheWheel said:


> Except as a renter the David's contract stipulates you are entitled to a refund if accommodations are not available on day of check in. The risk the renter was accepting was outside of those parameters


That’s on David’s, not the owners. I’m sure that their lawyers are rewriting the terms for future rental agreements. Your issue is with how David’s wrote the agreement you have. It’s not with an owner who is being denied the opportunity to interface with the renter directly. But that’s why both parties went thru a middleman to being with - to distance themselves from each other and to provide a semblance of a guarantee that their money is safe.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Marionnette said:


> It’s not “deceptive” to look at what those points costs the owner. If I buy a ton of bananas and I sell you a pound of bananas, that pound of bananas still has value. I think it’s disingenuous to imply that those points lack any value because they represent only a fraction of what the owner paid for their contracts.



Im not denying their value nor am I arguing that owners should be refunding renters no matter the circumstances, but if you buy 50 years (not always 50 as you know, but for the ease of this conversation) worth of bananas and compare your paid price of 50 years of them when you are only selling me one years worth, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Owners are not taking a financial loss renting their points. Bringing up the entire DVC purchase price instead of the dues related to those points used as well as their portion of the buy in is deceptive. There are 49 years of bananas the owner is still getting. Throughout these threads it has been implied from time to time that owners are doing renters a favour by giving them a sweet deal after shelling out thousands of thousands themselves. It is not done without benefit to both parties.


----------



## Lewisc

VeroGuy said:


> I agree that the contract you signed is between you and David’s, just as the contract that the renter signed is between David’s and the renter. If David’s has accepted that the contract between the owner and him has been completed based on his contract language then I agree that the owner has no further obligation to do anything.



I'm quoting you, other posters have made the same INCORRECT observation.
The rental agreement drafted by David's is between the owner (member) and renter.  It is electronically signed by both the renter and member.  The member is accepting that contract when they accept payment.  A poster doesn't believe the contract was legally executed by the owner.  As part of the agreement David's acts as the intermediary with respect to payment.

From David's website
*This electronic agreement is made the ?? day of ????, ???? by and between YOU and YOUR OTHER (together “Renter”) and MEMBER and MEMBER (together “Member”) by ME ("Intermediary" ........

Agreed and accepted on the date first shown above.


    YOU
   Renter


    YOUR OTHER
   Renter
*

*  MEMBER
   Member


    MEMBER
   Member*


----------



## ziravan

zskid00 said:


> Renters aren't getting what they paid for.  Points are going back to owners and they have already received 70% of the value of those points.  If points are expiring and are not usable and can't be banked that's one thing, but I am going to guess owners can do something with those points.  Hopefully owners are willing to work with renters since they have paid 100% to David's and right now they have nothing to show for it.


I think in the main, owners ARE willing to work with renters to recover their vacations or their money.

I think most owners ARE NOT willing to abrogate the deal they made just to keep David’s out of bankruptcy.

Depending on the time frame of the points, I would certainly refund or rebook my renter (and as a private transaction owner, I did exactly that with the one renter affected by an April trip.)

There’s no way I’d do either (refund or rebook) if all my renter will get is a likely useless voucher. And, there is no way I’d rebook through David’s for anyone without being paid my remaining 30% at the time of the new booking.


----------



## McCrae

Lewisc said:


> I'm quoting you, other posters have made the same INCORRECT observation.
> The rental agreement drafted by David's is between the owner (member) and renter.  It is electronically signed by both the renter and member.  The member is accepting that contract when they accept payment.  A poster doesn't believe the contract was legally executed by the owner.  As part of the agreement David's acts as the intermediary with respect to payment.
> 
> From David's website
> *This electronic agreement is made the ?? day of ????, ???? by and between YOU and YOUR OTHER (together “Renter”) and MEMBER and MEMBER (together “Member”) by ME ("Intermediary" ........
> 
> Agreed and accepted on the date first shown above.
> 
> 
> YOU
> Renter
> 
> 
> YOUR OTHER
> Renter*
> 
> 
> *  MEMBER
> Member
> 
> 
> MEMBER
> Member*



The renters do not pay any funds to the individual owners. All payments to the owners come from David’s. Unless cash is paid directly to the owners you  don’t have a contract with them.  Owners are renting points to David’s. David’s state the contracts they have are with the owners and the owners have no contract with the renters.

David’s are also accepting their contract will owners have been completed to their satisfaction. Renters trying to make a claim against owners have no chance in succeeding. It’s like a customer trying to sue Boeing because a flight has been Cancelled.


----------



## Lewisc

McCrae said:


> The renters do not pay any funds to the individual owners. All payments to the owners come from David’s. Unless cash is paid directly to the owners you  don’t have a contract with them.  Owners are renting points to David’s. David’s state the contracts they have are with the owners and the owners have no contract with the renters.
> 
> David’s are also accepting their contract will owners have been completed to their satisfaction. Renters trying to make a claim against owners have no chance in succeeding. It’s like a customer trying to sue Boeing because a flight has been Cancelled.


Read my prior post.  I quoted sections from the rental agreement between the owner and renter.  The fact that the owner has asked David's to facilitate payment doesn't change the fact that the actual rental agreement is between the owner and renter. By your logic an purchase paid with paypal would become a sale between paypal and the buyer and not the actual seller.


----------



## McCrae

Lewisc said:


> Read my prior post.  I quoted sections from the rental agreement between the owner and renter.  The fact that the owner has asked David's to facilitate payment doesn't change the fact that the actual rental agreement is between the owner and renter. By your logic an purchase paid with paypal would become a sale between paypal and the buyer and not the actual seller.


Which financial institution processes a transfer of cash has nothing to do with the contract. David’s is the party owners have a contract with and the payment comes from him. If the contract was with the renter they would pay the owner directly using PayPal. Renters don’t even have contact details for the owner.

Renters have no chance of making any successful claim against an owner.


----------



## CraigInPA

DGsAtBLT said:


> Owners are not taking a financial loss renting their points.



That is factually incorrect in many cases. Today, you'll pay $225 per point for BLT. It has 40 years to go, making the per year cost $5.63 per point year. Maintenance fees for 2020 are $6.58. Adding these together, you get $12.21. But, that's not all. You also have to factor in lost opportunity cost for the initial investment. If you assume a 5% return each year over 40 years, that adds an additional $39.64 over the 40 years, or $0.99. That brings the total up to $13.20. 

David's deposit is $10.15, which represents a loss to the owner if the final payment is not made. If the final payment is made, the owner would gross $1.30. That's considered income in the eyes of the IRS, so you need to pay interest on it. But, you don't get to pay only on the $1.30. You need to pay on the total income ($14.50) minus the maintenance fees ($6.58), or $7.92 gross profit. Assuming you're in a 22% tax rate (AGI under $84k), you'll be paying $1.74 in taxes. Subtracting the $1.74 from your income of $1.30 leaves you paying $0.40 per point for the rental, not making any profit at all.

Of course, not everyone has paid $225 per point for BLT. Some paid as little as $90 per point and got 50 years. But, asserting that all owners are not taking a loss is fallacious.


----------



## CraigInPA

Lewisc said:


> Read my prior post.  I quoted sections from the rental agreement between the owner and renter.  The fact that the owner has asked David's to facilitate payment doesn't change the fact that the actual rental agreement is between the owner and renter. By your logic an purchase paid with paypal would become a sale between paypal and the buyer and not the actual seller.



Actually, it is a 3 party contract, which you'd see if you looked closely as it includes David's as "intermediary". In addition, there are two additional contracts involved. You need to look at this as a whole, not ignore what doesn't suit your narrative. The other two contracts are clear in what David's role is to be. There is no argument that both of those contracts are still binding. Those contracts require David's to fully pay the owner and procure a reservation for the renter or provide a refund. The 3 party contract David's is saying is "void" because David's chose not to include a force majeure clause which would have covered this issue. But, that's just David's opinion and he has a vested interest in it going away because he drafted that agreement, so any fault in the agreement goes against him. The claim by a renter that the owner is solely responsible ignores the fault of the intermediary, and is not consistent with the language in the contract. Furthermore, the owners have only 53% of the money paid by the renter. So, renters will not win in court going solely after the owner listed on their contract. They need to include David's, and David's will be counter-sued by the owner for the remaining payment. The resulting case will likely establish liability to David's, not the owner.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Galun said:


> Why not?  Do you think there is a higher than 25% chance that the resort will close?  Because you are giving up saving $600 to not risk losing $2200.
> 
> The only thing that changed was the newly exposed chance of loss with extended resort shut down due to pandemic.  Again, company wide resort shutdown happened three times in the history of Disney prior to this, and each time for one day.  Last major pandemic was the Spanish flu in 1918.  We are talking about hundred year events here.


There are better bio-labs out there creating new viruses all the time.  What used to be 100 year event, could be a bit more frequent.  The world is changing quickly.


----------



## dkpilati

foodiddiedoo said:


> Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued?  My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed.  I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's.  Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that?  A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September.  I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window.  A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open".  Any suggestions?



We had a check-in date of 3/21 for AKL at WDW - and as of yesterday an email from David's said they are still working out details on how the credit will work.  They said it will probably be another couple of weeks until they have details.  I was informed that it is a one-time credit use and if there are other closures we won't be able to reschedule or transfer the credit again.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

CraigInPA said:


> That is factually incorrect in many cases. Today, you'll pay $225 per point for BLT. It has 40 years to go, making the per year cost $5.63 per point year. Maintenance fees for 2020 are $6.58. Adding these together, you get $12.21. But, that's not all. You also have to factor in lost opportunity cost for the initial investment. If you assume a 5% return each year over 40 years, that adds an additional $39.64 over the 40 years, or $0.99. That brings the total up to $13.20.
> 
> David's deposit is $10.15, which represents a loss to the owner if the final payment is not made. If the final payment is made, the owner would gross $1.30. That's considered income in the eyes of the IRS, so you need to pay interest on it. But, you don't get to pay only on the $1.30. You need to pay on the total income ($14.50) minus the maintenance fees ($6.58), or $7.92 gross profit. Assuming you're in a 22% tax rate (AGI under $84k), you'll be paying $1.74 in taxes. Subtracting the $1.74 from your income of $1.30 leaves you paying $0.40 per point for the rental, not making any profit at all.
> 
> Of course, not everyone has paid $225 per point for BLT. Some paid as little as $90 per point and got 50 years. But, asserting that all owners are not taking a loss is fallacious.



Even those for whom renting does not cover their costs, they are still financially better off renting than not assuming they would not be using the points. If they do not rent them at all and let them go stale or give them away, they are still paying those same costs.

My point being, this is a beneficial relationship on both sides. Neither is doing the other a favour. Renters don’t really need to be grateful owners take the plunge to be DVC members anymore than owners need to be grateful renters are there to lessen their costs of owning. We’re all benefiting from each other. Off course the owner laid out a lot more financially, if renters are using 1 year of points on a 50 year contract (for example) they are only purchasing 2% of that owners points.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

If renting left you in the hole or very close to it, why would anyone bother? Mutually beneficial relationship.


----------



## Deb & Bill

zskid00 said:


> Renters aren't getting what they paid for.  Points are going back to owners and they have already received 70% of the value of those points.  If points are expiring and are not usable and can't be banked that's one thing, but I am going to guess owners can do something with those points.  Hopefully owners are willing to work with renters since they have paid 100% to David's and right now they have nothing to show for it.


Owners are getting 53% of what the renter paid, what you are calling 70%.  David has 47% of the money, the other portion owed to the owner and his commission on the sale.  Basically the owner was paid about $10 a point before the start of the reservation.   I could see the owner of the points keeping the annual member fees for the points they had rented (about $7-8 per point) and returning the rest to the renter.  But David would need to return his portion, both the amount he held out from the owner and his commission.  The price of doing business.  The renter could get about 55% of what they had originally paid, the price of trying to get a deal.


----------



## Fred M

DGsAtBLT said:


> My point being, this is a beneficial relationship on both sides. Neither is doing the other a favour. Renters don’t really need to be grateful owners take the plunge to be DVC members anymore than owners need to be grateful renters are there to lessen their costs of owning.



But it's far more beneficial to a renter than an owner, and that's why I will never rent out my DVC points until companies like David's pay market rates to owners. In my mind, the owners are doing the renters a huge favor that isn't worth the money David's is paying.

I looked up rack rates for the Boardwalk on the hotel side, from October 12th to 18th. It averages $566.57 per night for a garden view with a king bed. For a 6 night stay, that's $3,400. Water view is $687.33 per night, for $4,124. DVC points for a studio are 10/15 per night for the Monday through Thursday, and 14/16 per night for the Friday and Saturday. Let's say miracles of miracles happen and you snag a standard view studio. That's 68 points. Premium view will be 92 points. For the 68 point studio, David's is going to charge you $1,360, but the owner gets just over $1,000. For premium view, David's will charge you $1,840, but the owner only gets $1,426.  

What's the owner getting for their payment? The privilege of scheduling Magical Express and dining packages. The privilege of getting a bill from DVC should the renter damage the unit. The privilege of paying maintenance fees on those points. The privilege of only getting 70% up front and having to wait months and months for the remaining 30%. And the privilege of, for those of us in the US, paying federal income taxes on our rental. 

The renters' savings on rack rate is substantially more than what the owner is getting at the end of the day. And if a renter can get a deal from Disney off of rack rate, or a deal from a travel agent that saves off of rack rate, why would anyone go to David's? Because it's a better deal, and the savings for that is coming out of the owner's pocket.


----------



## toesmom

I don't think anyone ever considered this situation.  My family booked trip to Europe for July and I booked non-refundable rooms to get discounted rate.  It never even crossed my mind that we would not go.  We have always taken our family vacations.  Always.  But because of covid-19 I had to cancel. No money refunded for 2 hotels. Those were the terms.  The hotels kept the money.  I agreed to those terms when I paid the discounted room rate.  No one ever foresaw this situation.  But it happened, and from now on the idea of non-refundable is off the table.  I'm not sure what should happen here, but I feel for those who are out the money.  There should be a way to make this work.  Had I paid the refundable rate, I'd have the money back.  Had some renters paid reservations through disney, they would have the money back already.  Really bad situation for everyone.  Be well, stay home to keep everyone healthy.


----------



## Amymouse13

toesmom said:


> I don't think anyone ever considered this situation.  My family booked trip to Europe for July and I booked non-refundable rooms to get discounted rate.  It never even crossed my mind that we would not go.  We have always taken our family vacations.  Always.  But because of covid-19 I had to cancel. No money refunded for 2 hotels. Those were the terms.  The hotels kept the money.  I agreed to those terms when I paid the discounted room rate.  No one ever foresaw this situation.  But it happened, and from now on the idea of non-refundable is off the table.  I'm not sure what should happen here, but I feel for those who are out the money.  There should be a way to make this work.  Had I paid the refundable rate, I'd have the money back.  Had some renters paid reservations through disney, they would have the money back already.  Really bad situation for everyone.  Be well, stay home to keep everyone healthy.


 
One difference is you chose to cancel.  Had the hotel closed or cancelled your reservation the situation night be different...


----------



## Dracula

toesmom said:


> I don't think anyone ever considered this situation.  My family booked trip to Europe for July and I booked non-refundable rooms to get discounted rate.  It never even crossed my mind that we would not go.  We have always taken our family vacations.  Always.  But because of covid-19 I had to cancel. No money refunded for 2 hotels. Those were the terms.  The hotels kept the money.  I agreed to those terms when I paid the discounted room rate.  No one ever foresaw this situation.  But it happened, and from now on the idea of non-refundable is off the table.  I'm not sure what should happen here, but I feel for those who are out the money.  There should be a way to make this work.  Had I paid the refundable rate, I'd have the money back.  Had some renters paid reservations through disney, they would have the money back already.  Really bad situation for everyone.  Be well, stay home to keep everyone healthy.


If you have a reservation that is non-refundable 3 months from now, do not cancel it. In the worst case scenario, you don't go and are out of money. But many credit cards provide travel insurance - maybe a family member is sick? or a job loss in the family? - that would qualify you for a refund, and chances are the hotels may bring a more generous cancellation policy, or they would be closed anyway. Once you cancel, however, you forfeit all these avenues to no gain for yourself.

We have non-refundable tickets to London on Delta in June and non-refundable tickets on other European carriers, all booked last August. At this point I am 100% sure we cannot go and 90% expect to lose all the money - but there is zero benefit in me canceling.


----------



## badeacon

Dracula said:


> If you have a reservation that is non-refundable 3 months from now, do not cancel it. In the worst case scenario, you don't go and are out of money. But many credit cards provide travel insurance - maybe a family member is sick? or a job loss in the family? - that would qualify you for a refund, and chances are the hotels may bring a more generous cancellation policy, or they would be closed anyway. Once you cancel, however, you forfeit all these avenues to no gain for yourself.
> 
> We have non-refundable tickets to London on Delta in June and non-refundable tickets on other European carriers, all booked last August. At this point I am 100% sure we cannot go and 90% expect to lose all the money - but there is zero benefit in me canceling.


I have strong feeling your Delta ticket in June will not be lost. There is a good chance travel may still be restricted or  with all the flight cancellations , if rescheduled flight outside certain time frame , one can get a refund or credit with Delta. I agree not to cancel anything at this time.


----------



## Amymouse13

I have not cancelled our flight to Disney Saturday April 18 on American yet, I'm hopeful it will be cancelled or changed as then our points go back in our account (bank of America travel points) over a credit.

I'm not planning any vacations anytime soon.  I'm not convinced this whole coronavirus thing will end soon... Even if it goes down, it may come back much worse.  Refundable or not, not now and probably not for a good bit.


----------



## SherylLC

Lewisc said:


> Read my prior post.  I quoted sections from the rental agreement between the owner and renter.  The fact that the owner has asked David's to facilitate payment doesn't change the fact that the actual rental agreement is between the owner and renter. By your logic an purchase paid with paypal would become a sale between paypal and the buyer and not the actual seller.


This is not true. There are two contracts. One between David's and the renter and another with David's and the owner. The renter never signs the same paper as the owner does.  There is no contract between owner and renter.

I am so confused as to why people think it's the owners who are cheating the renters. It seems that pretty much all renters who have flexibility with their points are willing to work with renters but David's is dragging their feet and taking this option off the table until David is sure he is covered. That'll take some time and in the mean time, both renters and owners are getting shorted by his lack of action as points get less usable as time passes. Owners can't negotiate with renters on their own without breaking their contract with David.
ROCK||Owners||HARD PLACE.
Having to accept no vacation that was paid for up front or 70% of what was promised is unacceptable. The bad guy is David who is not caring for the people who have made him a ton of money over the years!

Someone made an argument that the points are only worth dues. This is also not true. The value of the points is what David agreed to pay for them. If you don't understand that, understand that if owners hadn't rented through David's they would have rented through a competitor or rented on their own. What you can rent them for is what their value is.


----------



## weich1001

Obviously this is bad all the way around for everyone involved (and even worse for family or relatives who actually contracted Covid 19 or lost a loved one during this time). 

But *assuming* you have a future reservation for when the Resorts open up (sure hope they will eventually) *AND* David's goes out of business (for whatever reason but hopefully he or his team can figure this mess out)...What would be a fair solution for those left to deal with this Intermediary's disaster!  

Obviously the Renter's paid alot of money to David's for the Reservation and his Fee's and have planned for their vacation...Owners can't refund a 100% of the money, as prior to arrival day they only receive 70% (of $14.50 or $15.50 per point/could even be less) Owners will be out the 30% (due from David's on arrival day) and if they allow the reservation to continue, will take on added risks of renting without a contract with a valid company.

I just don't see a way to make both remaining parties equally happy. So, what would a fair solution look like in your eyes? Your thoughts?


----------



## SherylLC

Dracula said:


> We have non-refundable tickets to London on Delta in June and non-refundable tickets on other European carriers, all booked last August. At this point I am 100% sure we cannot go and 90% expect to lose all the money - but there is zero benefit in me canceling.


Delta is giving 100% credit with no change fees which is good for TWO years on flights affected by COVID. You won't get cash back but you will have ample time to rebook something in the future.


----------



## Dracula

SherylLC said:


> Delta is giving 100% credit with no change fees which is good for TWO years on flights affected by COVID. You won't get cash back but you will have ample time to rebook something in the future.


But they only do this for flights leaving through May 31st, and we are booked in June. For this date the regular cancellation applies - a $250 per ticket fee and the balance on a voucher expiring one year from ticketing, that means August 2020. No matter what we are not leaving the country now and risk being stuck in quarantine somewhere, so we may have to eat the loss. Very few will get out unscathed from this crisis.


----------



## SherylLC

Dracula said:


> But they only do this for flights leaving through May 31st, and we are booked in June. For this date the regular cancellation applies - a $250 per ticket fee and the balance on a voucher expiring one year from ticketing, that means August 2020. No matter what we are not leaving the country now and risk being stuck in quarantine somewhere, so we may have to eat the loss. Very few will get out unscathed from this crisis.


You're right...my apologies.


----------



## crisi

toesmom said:


> I don't think anyone ever considered this situation.  My family booked trip to Europe for July and I booked non-refundable rooms to get discounted rate.  It never even crossed my mind that we would not go.  We have always taken our family vacations.  Always.  But because of covid-19 I had to cancel. No money refunded for 2 hotels. Those were the terms.  The hotels kept the money.  I agreed to those terms when I paid the discounted room rate.  No one ever foresaw this situation.  But it happened, and from now on the idea of non-refundable is off the table.  I'm not sure what should happen here, but I feel for those who are out the money.  There should be a way to make this work.  Had I paid the refundable rate, I'd have the money back.  Had some renters paid reservations through disney, they would have the money back already.  Really bad situation for everyone.  Be well, stay home to keep everyone healthy.



We are in the same boat - my husband and his 82 year old mother were supposed to be in Amsterdam and London this week and next.  The airfare was refunded - because it was booked on points by a Platinum member, the hotels - sorry, out of luck.  In one case the hotel did cancel the reservation - that hotel is completely closed down.  Both hotels have offered some sort of "after this passes we will try and see what can be done" offer - but no refund and no specifics on what that might be - whether that will be the opportunity to reschedule or a hefty discount - or if those hotels are even in business after the hits they'll take (the one completely closed down was a small non-chain boutique hotel).   And if Delta goes under (and they might - they only have cash on hand to operate for another month or so), those frequent flyer miles are gone as well.


----------



## lovethesun12

Fred M said:


> But it's far more beneficial to a renter than an owner, and that's why I will never rent out my DVC points until companies like David's pay market rates to owners. In my mind, the owners are doing the renters a huge favor that isn't worth the money David's is paying.


I would have to disagree with that. I guess it is beneficial in the fact that you may be able to book 11 months out, but the savings aren't always great. Last year a discount went on rack rate in Jan/Feb and I booked Beach Club Villas for $333/night average for 11 nights (cash stay from Disney). I don't think 25-30% off is unusual at all for Disney on a deluxe resort. With taxes, it came to $4120 with Disney. I just looked up the price for the exact same stay on David's website and it is $4066 (I know the price of David's had gone up a dollar or two per point this year, but still...not always phenomenal savings).


----------



## Dracula

crisi said:


> We are in the same boat - my husband and his 82 year old mother were supposed to be in Amsterdam and London this week and next.  The airfare was refunded - because it was booked on points by a Platinum member, the hotels - sorry, out of luck.  In one case the hotel did cancel the reservation - that hotel is completely closed down.  Both hotels have offered some sort of "after this passes we will try and see what can be done" offer - but no refund and no specifics on what that might be - whether that will be the opportunity to reschedule or a hefty discount - or if those hotels are even in business after the hits they'll take (the one completely closed down was a small non-chain boutique hotel).   And if Delta goes under (and they might - they only have cash on hand to operate for another month or so), those frequent flyer miles are gone as well.


In recent airline bankruptcies, frequent flyer miles remained in place. Even if Delta is bankrupt, it would likely be nationalized and continue to operate on government support - it is the strongest US major airline and will be considered strategic.


----------



## crisi

Dracula said:


> In recent airline bankruptcies, frequent flyer miles remained in place. Even if Delta is bankrupt, it would likely be nationalized and continue to operate on government support - it is the strongest US major airline and will be considered strategic.



I wouldn't expect the frequent flyer miles to remain through nationalization - and I wouldn't expect the U.S. government to nationalize airlines.   I suspect Delta will get bailed out, and if the past is any indication - with the top tier management making bank off our tax dollars - but we can hope for a "the U.S. comes to their senses" moment.    I'm not worried about the frequent flyer miles - they are gravy - which is what they are SUPPOSED to be - if they are still there that's awesome, if they aren't, well......    In fact, vacation dollars in general are supposed to be gravy - so I'm not worried about the hotels either.  We get some sort of credit for future or we don't.  I'm more worried about the health of my 81 year old mother in law and if she will ever make this trip (my husband was born near Amsterdam and hasn't been back since he was a toddler - hence this trip).   And that's regardless of Covid - she's just old and at some point, you don't do international travel any longer.


----------



## DontSpamMe

What an awful experience with the rental store. The member has not responded thus limiting my options if the park is closed. Thankfully I purchased their protection plan.  I'll still be out a few hundred dollars, but I'm getting something back. These contracts 100% benefit the member and not the renter. My experience has soured me on this DVC nonsense. No way no how would I become a member.


----------



## lawboy2001

weich1001 said:


> Obviously this is bad all the way around for everyone involved (and even worse for family or relatives who actually contracted Covid 19 or lost a loved one during this time).
> 
> But *assuming* you have a future reservation for when the Resorts open up (sure hope they will eventually) *AND* David's goes out of business (for whatever reason but hopefully he or his team can figure this mess out)...What would be a fair solution for those left to deal with this Intermediary's disaster!
> 
> Obviously the Renter's paid alot of money to David's for the Reservation and his Fee's and have planned for their vacation...Owners can't refund a 100% of the money, as prior to arrival day they only receive 70% (of $14.50 or $15.50 per point/could even be less) Owners will be out the 30% (due from David's on arrival day) and if they allow the reservation to continue, will take on added risks of renting without a contract with a valid company.
> 
> I just don't see a way to make both remaining parties equally happy. So, what would a fair solution look like in your eyes? Your thoughts?



If that is my situation for my rented reservations for later in the summer, I plan to just eat the loss of the 30% and have the renter check in per usual.  You win some you lose some.  I don't want to interfere with someone's vacation.


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## Grnl706

David's just posted an update on FB:

An Update for our Guests Impacted by the Disney Vacation Club Resort Closures:
We are issuing guests whose travel dates overlap the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals.
We are finalizing with our legal partners and software engineers to develop the systems necessary to manage this situation and deliver the Travel Credit to you very soon.
At this time, we can share that this is what we are working on releasing:
• The Travel Credit will be equal to the paid dollar value of your original rental less any compensation you may have already received
• The Travel Credit is non-transferable
• The Travel Credit can be used for any service offered by David’s Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings for rooms at Disney owned resorts, Disney Cruise Line Bookings, Adventure by Disney Bookings, Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines Bookings, or any other venue added at our discretion, based on availability
• The Travel Credit will be valid for 15 months from the date it is issued
We will be reaching out to guests soon to provide them with exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.
We hope you have more news to share with you soon


I posed the question of what they consider "overlap" since the resorts are closed until further notice. My trip is in June and even though they are not officially closed for my dates right now, I would still need to reschedule. I'm hoping my question gets answered and not deleted!


----------



## DISNEYNY

Grnl706 said:


> David's just posted an update on FB:
> 
> An Update for our Guests Impacted by the Disney Vacation Club Resort Closures:
> We are issuing guests whose travel dates overlap the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals.
> We are finalizing with our legal partners and software engineers to develop the systems necessary to manage this situation and deliver the Travel Credit to you very soon.
> At this time, we can share that this is what we are working on releasing:
> • The Travel Credit will be equal to the paid dollar value of your original rental less any compensation you may have already received
> • The Travel Credit is non-transferable
> • The Travel Credit can be used for any service offered by David’s Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings for rooms at Disney owned resorts, Disney Cruise Line Bookings, Adventure by Disney Bookings, Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines Bookings, or any other venue added at our discretion, based on availability
> • The Travel Credit will be valid for 15 months from the date it is issued
> We will be reaching out to guests soon to provide them with exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.
> We hope you have more news to share with you soon
> 
> 
> I posed the question of what they consider "overlap" since the resorts are closed until further notice. My trip is in June and even though they are not officially closed for my dates right now, I would still need to reschedule. I'm hoping my question gets answered and not deleted!



I got this as well. I am wondering what they mean by cash booking at Disney owned resorts. Does that mean David's could book a trip for us at say Caribbean Beach instead of renting points?


----------



## Frustrated renter

Grnl706 said:


> David's just posted an update on FB:
> 
> An Update for our Guests Impacted by the Disney Vacation Club Resort Closures:
> We are issuing guests whose travel dates overlap the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals.
> We are finalizing with our legal partners and software engineers to develop the systems necessary to manage this situation and deliver the Travel Credit to you very soon.
> At this time, we can share that this is what we are working on releasing:
> • The Travel Credit will be equal to the paid dollar value of your original rental less any compensation you may have already received
> • The Travel Credit is non-transferable
> • The Travel Credit can be used for any service offered by David’s Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings for rooms at Disney owned resorts, Disney Cruise Line Bookings, Adventure by Disney Bookings, Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines Bookings, or any other venue added at our discretion, based on availability
> • The Travel Credit will be valid for 15 months from the date it is issued
> We will be reaching out to guests soon to provide them with exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.
> We hope you have more news to share with you soon
> 
> 
> I posed the question of what they consider "overlap" since the resorts are closed until further notice. My trip is in June and even though they are not officially closed for my dates right now, I would still need to reschedule. I'm hoping my question gets answered and not deleted!



I would assume that until your reservation is cancelled by Disney or at least until Disney announces an opening date that they David’s will not assume your June reservation is affected, since Disney is currently accepting new bookings for June reservations.

I’m sure that’s not what you want to hear right now, and I hope you get an answer you like better, but that’s my best guess.


----------



## Grnl706

DISNEYNY said:


> I got this as well. I am wondering what they mean by cash booking at Disney owned resorts. Does that mean David's could book a trip for us at say Caribbean Beach instead of renting points?



I noticed that too. I hope they end up elaborating more.



Frustrated renter said:


> I would assume that until your reservation is cancelled by Disney or at least until Disney announces an opening date that they David’s will not assume your June reservation is affected, since Disney is currently accepting new bookings for June reservations.
> 
> I’m sure that’s not what you want to hear right now, and I hope you get an answer you like better, but that’s my best guess.


Yup, that's what I figured. I do hope they at least still approach owners/renters with summer reservations. If an owner can and is willing to work with a renter it should be allowed. 

I know for my trip almost half of our group is unable to go because they're now on unemployment. Resorts closed or not, a lot of people's plans will be completely disrupted. And it also runs into the issue of potentially paying full price for a trip with a very limited experience. The way they worded this even makes it sound like if the resort is open but parks are still closed, you're out. I can see a lot of folks taking issue with traveling from all over to just stay at a resort.


----------



## dkpilati

Our owner has indicated he is willing to re-book for us.  We have selected new dates that are only one point less than what we originally booked and are working with David's to secure that.  This is part of the email that I got from them yesterday saying I had to acknowledge before they would proceed with the new dates.

*Before I reach out to the DVC Owner to see if they are able to do this for you, can you please confirm that you acknowledge the following:*

_*If Disney closes further into the year that we are not able to:*_
_*Ask the DVC Owner to rebook for new dates again*_
*Offer a Travel credit to you*


----------



## DISNEYNY

Grnl706 said:


> I noticed that too. I hope they end up elaborating more.



Same, I would much rather book directly from Disney if possible with these circumstances. If that is possible I would hope that means we would be granted Disney's cancelation/change policies if further shutdowns happen.  Especially with those terms dkpilati just shared from David's. It does not make me want to rerent points. Patiently waiting for more details.


----------



## Grnl706

Got a canned answer from David's so I asked soecifically what date they're up to now and how often will they be updating the dates that are impacted. 

If I am impacted enough in David's eyes, I'd like to jump as soon as I'm able!


----------



## DISNEYNY

Grnl706 said:


> Got a canned answer from David's so I asked soecifically what date they're up to now and how often will they be updating the dates that are impacted.
> 
> If I am impacted enough in David's eyes, I'd like to jump as soon as I'm able!



I asked them the same question very specifically for my trip which starts on May 21, after Disney announced no new bookings until June 1st. They said they could not help me until mid-April.  Let us know how they respond to you.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

DISNEYNY said:


> I asked them the same question very specifically for my trip which starts on May 21, after Disney announced no new bookings until June 1st. They said they could not help me until mid-April.  Let us know how they respond to you.


As an FYI,  they haven't reached out to me and my vacation was supposed to start on Saturday the 18th of April.  I wouldn't expect them to be getting around to May/June any time soon.


----------



## Sandisw

DISNEYNY said:


> I got this as well. I am wondering what they mean by cash booking at Disney owned resorts. Does that mean David's could book a trip for us at say Caribbean Beach instead of renting points?



It sounds like he is willing to allow you to do that.  I don’t think it means you’d have the benefits of cash booking cancellations but it would open up to the renter more options for getting a room since DVC availability is pretty slim for the next 8 months or sol


----------



## diser_fam

What was the date of your original booking?  If you don't mind me asking....



dkpilati said:


> Our owner has indicated he is willing to re-book for us.  We have selected new dates that are only one point less than what we originally booked and are working with David's to secure that.  This is part of the email that I got from them yesterday saying I had to acknowledge before they would proceed with the new dates.
> 
> *Before I reach out to the DVC Owner to see if they are able to do this for you, can you please confirm that you acknowledge the following:*
> 
> _*If Disney closes further into the year that we are not able to:*_
> _*Ask the DVC Owner to rebook for new dates again*_
> *Offer a Travel credit to you*


----------



## yankeesfan123

Looks like a lot of David’s renters with late April or May reservations will be staying at Saratoga springs (a fine resort) in the spring  of 2021 since all the other resorts are close to full for the rest of 2020!


----------



## Grnl706

yankeesfan123 said:


> Looks like a lot of David’s renters with late April or May reservations will be staying at Saratoga springs (a fine resort) in the spring  of 2021 since all the other resorts are close to full for the rest of 2020!


This was my first time doing any of this, so I'm a bit curious. My current booking is Saratoga Springs, does it normally have more availability? Maybe I made the right choice lol!


----------



## dkpilati

diser_fam said:


> What was the date of your original booking?  If you don't mind me asking....



We were to arrive 3/21 through 3/29 at AKL originally.  

My initial communication with them was very frustrating as someone different would respond each time.  About 1-1/2 weeks ago it appears only one person has been assigned to  handle my "case".  The email subject line has her name in it, so I'm assuming it gets funneled to her.  After that, communication was much better.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Grnl706 said:


> This was my first time doing any of this, so I'm a bit curious. My current booking is Saratoga Springs, does it normally have more availability? Maybe I made the right choice lol!


Historically Saratoga springs and old key west have availability even a few weeks before a vacation. Others sell out either close to the 11 month window or shortly after the 7 month window. 

That being said, I’d still stay at Saratoga in a heart beat. With the credit I’d get, I could probably stay there twice as long as I am currently planning to stay at BLT.


----------



## Brian Noble

yankeesfan123 said:


> That being said, I’d still stay at Saratoga in a heart beat.


Me too. SSR is often viewed as the red-headed stepchild of the WDW DVC resorts, but it has really grown on me. Now that the landscaping has had a chance to mature, the resort has a relaxed but sophisticated vibe. The walking paths are second only to those around VWL and Ft. Wilderness, IMO. The improvements at the Paddock pool were a significant upgrade. The points chart re-balancing, for me, was an improvement (I don't have anyone in my party with mobility issues, and a 7ish minute walk to the central services area is not a hardship.)

I do typically rent a car when staying here, and use it often. That may be something to consider. When you are staying on points (as an owner, renting from one, or on an exchange) you do not pay for parking.


----------



## DISNEYNY

Sandisw said:


> It sounds like he is willing to allow you to do that.  I don’t think it means you’d have the benefits of cash booking cancellations but it would open up to the renter more options for getting a room since DVC availability is pretty slim for the next 8 months or sol



I guess I just don't understand how we would not be extended those benefits? I would think at a minimum, a rebooking would have to be allowed if Disney closed again? If it's booked through Disney how could they not follow the guidelines/policy Dinsey has in place for guests at those resorts.


----------



## Sandisw

DISNEYNY said:


> I guess I just don't understand how we would not be extended those benefits? I would think at a minimum, a rebooking would have to be allowed if Disney closed again? If it's booked through Disney how could they not follow the guidelines/policy Dinsey has in place for guests at those resorts.



I think, and it’s only my guess, that David’s would be the one to get the money back if you book Disney.

I see it as his way to allow people to use the voucher, but it’s still a service with him that will come with restrictions,

If he just wanted to turn your voucher into a cash stay, he’d just refund you the money,

It would be a good question to ask,


----------



## karpy111

Grnl706 said:


> David's just posted an update on FB:
> 
> An Update for our Guests Impacted by the Disney Vacation Club Resort Closures:
> We are issuing guests whose travel dates overlap the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals.
> We are finalizing with our legal partners and software engineers to develop the systems necessary to manage this situation and deliver the Travel Credit to you very soon.
> At this time, we can share that this is what we are working on releasing:
> • The Travel Credit will be equal to the paid dollar value of your original rental less any compensation you may have already received
> • The Travel Credit is non-transferable
> • The Travel Credit can be used for any service offered by David’s Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings for rooms at Disney owned resorts, Disney Cruise Line Bookings, Adventure by Disney Bookings, Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines Bookings, or any other venue added at our discretion, based on availability
> • The Travel Credit will be valid for 15 months from the date it is issued
> We will be reaching out to guests soon to provide them with exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.
> We hope you have more news to share with you soon
> 
> 
> I posed the question of what they consider "overlap" since the resorts are closed until further notice. My trip is in June and even though they are not officially closed for my dates right now, I would still need to reschedule. I'm hoping my question gets answered and not deleted!


I totally understand your dilemma.  I hope you have the choice or rescheduling even if the parks are open.


----------



## GoingSince1990

lawboy2001 said:


> If that is my situation for my rented reservations for later in the summer, I plan to just eat the loss of the 30% and have the renter check in per usual.  You win some you lose some.  I don't want to interfere with someone's vacation.


Me too. I just wouldn’t be able to bring myself to cancel an innocent renter’s vacation because of not getting the 30%, and still be able to look at myself in the mirror every day.


----------



## ziravan

Wouldn’t many of these renters benefit from a cash refund now that they could then use to take advantage of the dining plan promotion?

1. It should be avail to renters because it’s avail for DVC reservations and they’re using the conf number to verify: that’s in the renter’s name.

2. That’s a new booking through Disney so should be protected against future closures.

3. It’s a nice upgrade in benefits that should offset the price differential.

If I were a renter who still wanted to go, I’d seek a chargeback and take control of my future reservation and take advantage of the dining plan offer for affected guests.

4. If you apply for the chargeback and use the funds to book the dining plan now, you can always reverse course if you lose the appeal and cancel the Disney booking.

5. If you lose, theoretically it’s because David’s countered that he’s got a voucher plan. If he uses the voucher plan as his defense, he’ll be honor-bound by those terms to still offer it to you if you lose a chargeback dispute. So, having to take the voucher shouldn’t be the best deal you can get; it should be the worst.


----------



## TheWheel

dkpilati said:


> Our owner has indicated he is willing to re-book for us.  We have selected new dates that are only one point less than what we originally booked and are working with David's to secure that.  This is part of the email that I got from them yesterday saying I had to acknowledge before they would proceed with the new dates.
> 
> *Before I reach out to the DVC Owner to see if they are able to do this for you, can you please confirm that you acknowledge the following:*
> 
> _*If Disney closes further into the year that we are not able to:*_
> _*Ask the DVC Owner to rebook for new dates again*_
> *Offer a Travel credit to you*


That would be a big fat nope, please process my refund / CC chargeback for me.


----------



## DebbieB

My first reaction to the Facebook post today and the grateful replies was he’s trying to keep his renters calm so they don’t try chargebacks.  I hope it works out but I can’t see how financially it will.


----------



## Grnl706

Could


DISNEYNY said:


> I got this as well. I am wondering what they mean by cash booking at Disney owned resorts. Does that mean David's could book a trip for us at say Caribbean Beach instead of renting points?



Here's some clarity from David's I found in the comments (Took out names): 

 We want to make all options available to our guests, and the Travel Credit will be able to be used for securing a new point rental reservation or a reservation booked by our team as Disney travel agents.  These Disney owned resorts don't have to be DVC resorts; guests could choose to be booked in at any Disney resort (for example, Art of Animation, Pop Century, etc...).


----------



## Amymouse13

Grnl706 said:


> Could
> 
> 
> Here's some clarity from David's I found in the comments (Took out names):
> 
> We want to make all options available to our guests, and the Travel Credit will be able to be used for securing a new point rental reservation or a reservation booked by our team as Disney travel agents.  These Disney owned resorts don't have to be DVC resorts; guests could choose to be booked in at any Disney resort (for example, Art of Animation, Pop Century, etc...).



If he can book me a cash reservation, how about giving me my cash back instead?


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> If he can book me a cash reservation, how about giving me my cash back instead?



That is why I think that if someone chooses a Disney hotel, it’s not going to give them more protection for cancelation.

It just gives them more options for the vouchers, which allows them to find something sooner rather than later.


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> That is why I think that if someone chooses a Disney hotel, it’s not going to give them more protection for cancelation.
> 
> It just gives them more options for the vouchers, which allows them to find something sooner rather than later.



Right so he's using cash to book me a hotel room?  I'd rather have cash...


----------



## Grnl706

Amymouse13 said:


> Right so he's using cash to book me a hotel room?  I'd rather have cash...


Yeah this seems so odd to me. This was down in the comments after three people called them out for canned answers. I don't think they wanted to actually explain this one. I saw nothing on their website about then being Disney Travel Agents? 

I agree, they have to have some type of restriction with this because otherwise it's a loop hole to get your money back.


----------



## Dracula

I think David’s move to give access to cash reservations is pretty smart - many customers would realize how much money they are saving booking DVC vs. cash rates, and will end up renting again and feeling smug about it. And for those that will take the cash rates, I am sure David’s will qualify for at least 16% commission from Disney. Also, this will drive many renters to feel confident they would be able to rebook, and will take the voucher rather than the credit card chargeback (whereas the chargeback is what makes most sense from a strictly business point of view).


----------



## Applebiscuit

I am renting points, and after today's email from them (which was the exact same as the post made on their Facebook page) I am much more at ease. The fact they are allowing me to use the money I spent on renting points to go towards a cash reservation is important because now I know if I can't find availability with points I can just rent with cash and even get the free dining offer from Disney


----------



## LAX

Grnl706 said:


> Yeah this seems so odd to me. This was down in the comments after three people called them out for canned answers. I don't think they wanted to actually explain this one. I saw nothing on their website about then being Disney Travel Agents?
> 
> I agree, *they have to have some type of restriction with this because otherwise it's a loop hole to get your money back.*



I wonder if David's will still apply the no change/modification to these non-DVC Disney accommodations even though the underlying reservations may have no such restriction. If the renters end up needing to cancel on their own, he will then be able to minimize his losses when Disney refunds those reservations. The alternative is that he has been able to negotiate some sort of discount on blocks of Disney rooms, which I imagine would have some restrictions.

In any event, giving the renters more options is certainly a step in the right direction, IMHO.

LAX


----------



## Frustrated renter

I wonder what the terms and conditions will include when we finally see the details of this travel credit.

I’d love to minimize my losses in this unfortunate situation.  I’m guessing the “cash booking” option will have some sort of strings attached, but with DVC availability being minimal by the time the credit is offered, it may be the way to go.


----------



## Mumof4mice

David's could be expecting to have access to a large number of distressed points for rent.  Many existing clients (owners) from David's database could decide to rent out their points instead of traveling before a vaccine is available.  Most of them would be unaware of the concerns we've been discussing here. DIS users represent a tiny fraction of DVC members. 

In addition to the cheap points, David's could buy deeply discounted bulk rooms from Disney and sell them at a smaller discount.  Assuming low fixed overheads and eligibility to the business support offered by the Canadian government, they could honour all the credits issued and make it through this mess.

I've both rented from David's, and rented out points multiple times using their services.  I would really like to see them survive this.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Grnl706 said:


> This was my first time doing any of this, so I'm a bit curious. My current booking is Saratoga Springs, does it normally have more availability? Maybe I made the right choice lol!


they were doing renovations at SSR and held a bunch of villas for the renovations.  My guess is they released them all back and putting a hold on doing any more renovations for the next few months until everything can even out.


----------



## Nennie

I've been pretty negative towards David's and the way they've handled things thus far, but have to say that I'm impressed that they are giving the renters so many options, plus 15 months to rebook.  I think they are going to survive this!


----------



## Dentam

I rented points at the Boardwalk for Labor Day week.  At this point, I don't plan to go until a vaccine is developed.  I just don't think the parks would be a good idea at all until then.  I'm glad to hear that David's is giving more options and 15 months to rebook.  I hope that will still apply by the time my original trip dates come around!


----------



## yankeesfan123

Dentam said:


> I rented points at the Boardwalk for Labor Day week.  At this point, I don't plan to go until a vaccine is developed.  I just don't think the parks would be a good idea at all until then.  I'm glad to hear that David's is giving more options and 15 months to rebook.  I hope that will still apply by the time my original trip dates come around!


From my reading of David’s response and their Facebook page, this only applies if the resorts are closed. If the resort is open, but you feel unsafe going because there is no vaccine, you would not be allowed to rebook (at least the way their current program is detailed as of right now).


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> From my reading of David’s response and their Facebook page, this only applies if the resorts are closed. If the resort is open, but you feel unsafe going because there is no vaccine, you would not be allowed to rebook (at least the way their current program is detailed as of right now).



I agree, I don’t think this is going to be the new program going forward, but rather a way to help in this situation.

Once resorts open, owners of the rented points are going to expect contracts to be honored as written.


----------



## lawboy2001

Dentam said:


> I rented points at the Boardwalk for Labor Day week.  At this point, I don't plan to go until a vaccine is developed.  I just don't think the parks would be a good idea at all until then.  I'm glad to hear that David's is giving more options and 15 months to rebook.  I hope that will still apply by the time my original trip dates come around!



If the resorts are open Labor Day week, you will not have a rebooking option.  You don't go, you forfeit your $$.


----------



## Dentam

lawboy2001 said:


> If the resorts are open Labor Day week, you will not have a rebooking option.  You don't go, you forfeit your $$.



Let's hope that's not the case.  I have a very valid reason to not want to go before a vaccine is developed.  I also highly doubt that the parks can reopen and fill all existing reservations before a vaccine is developed.  A second wave of the virus is expected this fall and winter and a vaccine is not expected to be available for another year at the earliest.  We shall see though.  If the antibody tests become widely available soon, and I'm shown to have them despite never having any symptoms, or if I get the virus and recover before my trip, those are the only ways I would consider going at this point.  Or if a vaccine miraculously becomes available before Sept.


----------



## starry_solo

Dentam said:


> Let's hope that's not the case.  I have a very valid reason to not want to go before a vaccine is developed.  I also highly doubt that the parks can reopen and fill all existing reservations before a vaccine is developed.  A second wave of the virus is expected this fall and winter and a vaccine is not expected to be available for another year at the earliest.  We shall see though.  If the antibody tests become widely available soon, and I'm shown to have them despite never having any symptoms, or if I get the virus and recover before my trip, those are the only ways I would consider going at this point.  Or if a vaccine miraculously becomes available before Sept.



if the resorts are open and the parks are closed, it’s unlikely David’s would make this offer available


----------



## Deb & Bill

Dentam said:


> Let's hope that's not the case.  I have a very valid reason to not want to go before a vaccine is developed.  I also highly doubt that the parks can reopen and fill all existing reservations before a vaccine is developed.  A second wave of the virus is expected this fall and winter and a vaccine is not expected to be available for another year at the earliest.  We shall see though.  If the antibody tests become widely available soon, and I'm shown to have them despite never having any symptoms, or if I get the virus and recover before my trip, those are the only ways I would consider going at this point.  Or if a vaccine miraculously becomes available before Sept.


My guess is that if the resorts are open for business and you have a contract with David, you are expected to take the trip you reserved.  If you don't go, you better have trip insurance that will cover your need to cancel.  Otherwise, you may lose what you paid.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Dentam said:


> Let's hope that's not the case.  I have a very valid reason to not want to go before a vaccine is developed.  I also highly doubt that the parks can reopen and fill all existing reservations before a vaccine is developed.  A second wave of the virus is expected this fall and winter and a vaccine is not expected to be available for another year at the earliest.  We shall see though.  If the antibody tests become widely available soon, and I'm shown to have them despite never having any symptoms, or if I get the virus and recover before my trip, those are the only ways I would consider going at this point.  Or if a vaccine miraculously becomes available before Sept.


I am in the same boat (August trip) but I honestly expect to lose my $3400. Even if the resorts are open, I’m not sure I’d bring my family of 6 down.  Unless Dave’s wants to graciously check to see if my owners are willing the rebook me, I think I’m out the money. But David’s is under no obligation to do that, and nor are the owners.


----------



## piccolopat

Shouldn't all of the money paid for a reservation be put into an escrow account until the renter checked in?  This would protect all parties since the money would be there in case something like this happened.  Perhaps David's should get a small fee in these cases shared by both the owner and renter, but certainly not the charge they are insisting to keep under this situation.  It seems that David's was almost running a pyramid scheme since he doesn't have the 30% on hand that is owed to owners on these contracts.


----------



## starry_solo

piccolopat said:


> Shouldn't all of the money paid for a reservation be put into an escrow account until the renter checked in?  This would protect all parties since the money would be there in case something like this happened.  Perhaps David's should get a small fee in these cases shared by both the owner and renter, but certainly not the charge they are insisting to keep under this situation.  It seems that David's was almost running a pyramid scheme since he doesn't have the 30% on hand that is owed to owners on these contracts.



escrow costs money so if he needed to do that for each transaction, he would pass the costs on to the parties and for small amounts, it’s not likely “worth” it


----------



## Sandisw

piccolopat said:


> Shouldn't all of the money paid for a reservation be put into an escrow account until the renter checked in?  This would protect all parties since the money would be there in case something like this happened.  Perhaps David's should get a small fee in these cases shared by both the owner and renter, but certainly not the charge they are insisting to keep under this situation.  It seems that David's was almost running a pyramid scheme since he doesn't have the 30% on hand that is owed to owners on these contracts.



As an owner, I wouldn’t use a broker, if all funds were held,  I think he had the 30%...I think the decided to not send it to all owners as leverage to get them to return the 70% or agree to enter in to a different rental contract, 

I don’t plan to use him again....not even sure if I will do rentals at all at this point,


----------



## Grnl706

starry_solo said:


> if the resorts are open and the parks are closed, it’s unlikely David’s would make this offer available



That is what I'm thinking as well. They made a point to say Resort Closure. I don't recall seeing them mention the parks. It's a shame because if the parks are closed and I'm not local, I'd be pretty upset but I guess it is what it is. My reservation is mid June and if I go by what Disney is doing right now (accepting reservations starting June 1st) I am mentally preparing to lose all of my money.


----------



## McCrae

piccolopat said:


> Shouldn't all of the money paid for a reservation be put into an escrow account until the renter checked in?  This would protect all parties since the money would be there in case something like this happened.  Perhaps David's should get a small fee in these cases shared by both the owner and renter, but certainly not the charge they are insisting to keep under this situation.  It seems that David's was almost running a pyramid scheme since he doesn't have the 30% on hand that is owed to owners on these contracts.


I think very few owners would make points available under this scenario. It’s not worth the risk of a dispute and points potentially expiring before any issues are resolved.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

piccolopat said:


> Shouldn't all of the money paid for a reservation be put into an escrow account until the renter checked in?  This would protect all parties since the money would be there in case something like this happened.  Perhaps David's should get a small fee in these cases shared by both the owner and renter, but certainly not the charge they are insisting to keep under this situation.  It seems that David's was almost running a pyramid scheme since he doesn't have the 30% on hand that is owed to owners on these contracts.


I for one would not rent my points if I did not receive most of the money for that rental up front. I rent points when I need a cash injection more than I need a vacation.....at the time I decide to rent, not at check in nearly a year later!


----------



## minthorne

I am an owner who in the past has rented from other owners and David's.

I would just like to express my opinion that Renters do not rent points.  Renters rent the reservation.  All point transactions are between the Owner and DCV.  Once the Owner has used points to secure the Reservation then they in turn rent that reservation to the renter.  The use of points to arrive at a price for the reservation is not the same as renting points.

I'm pretty sure Disney would not allow the renting of "points".  Renting "points" implies giving temporary custody and control of points to an entity other than the owner.  That is not allowed under the DVC contract except in a point transfer which are only allowed once a year in or out.  Renting accommodations procured by points is allowed.

From David's Rental Agreement (for example)
"The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $0000.00 US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation, using Member's Disney Vacation Club points, at RESORT in a ROOM TYPE to arrive on ARRIVAL DATE and depart on DEPARTURE DATE with a confirmation number of #########. "

With that in mind, if the owner can no longer provide a confirmed reservation then this contract is void and the renter is entitled to a full refund.

Just my opinions though...


----------



## Amymouse13

minthorne said:


> I am an owner who in the past has rented from other owners and David's.
> 
> I would just like to express my opinion that Renters do not rent points.  Renters rent the reservation.  All point transactions are between the Owner and DCV.  Once the Owner has used points to secure the Reservation then they in turn rent that reservation to the renter.  The use of points to arrive at a price for the reservation is not the same as renting points.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Disney would not allow the renting of "points".  Renting "points" implies giving temporary custody and control of points to an entity other than the owner.  That is not allowed under the DVC contract except in a point transfer which are only allowed once a year in or out.  Renting accommodations procured by points is allowed.
> 
> From David's Rental Agreement (for example)
> "The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $0000.00 US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation, using Member's Disney Vacation Club points, at RESORT in a ROOM TYPE to arrive on ARRIVAL DATE and depart on DEPARTURE DATE with a confirmation number of #########. "
> 
> With that in mind, if the owner can no longer provide a confirmed reservation then this contract is void and the renter is entitled to a full refund.
> 
> Just my opinions though...



I underlined this part of contract when I made my chargeback... And the letter from David's saying my reservation was cancelled.


----------



## Sandisw

minthorne said:


> I am an owner who in the past has rented from other owners and David's.
> 
> I would just like to express my opinion that Renters do not rent points.  Renters rent the reservation.  All point transactions are between the Owner and DCV.  Once the Owner has used points to secure the Reservation then they in turn rent that reservation to the renter.  The use of points to arrive at a price for the reservation is not the same as renting points.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Disney would not allow the renting of "points".  Renting "points" implies giving temporary custody and control of points to an entity other than the owner.  That is not allowed under the DVC contract except in a point transfer which are only allowed once a year in or out.  Renting accommodations procured by points is allowed.
> 
> From David's Rental Agreement (for example)
> "The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $0000.00 US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation, using Member's Disney Vacation Club points, at RESORT in a ROOM TYPE to arrive on ARRIVAL DATE and depart on DEPARTURE DATE with a confirmation number of #########. "
> 
> With that in mind, if the owner can no longer provide a confirmed reservation then this contract is void and the renter is entitled to a full refund.
> 
> Just my opinions though...



Someone posted somewhere that the contract or deed specifically mentions that points can not be rented, as they simply represent a fractional share of ownership in a resort.


----------



## fsjking

minthorne said:


> I am an owner who in the past has rented from other owners and David's.
> 
> I would just like to express my opinion that Renters do not rent points.  Renters rent the reservation.  All point transactions are between the Owner and DCV.  Once the Owner has used points to secure the Reservation then they in turn rent that reservation to the renter.  The use of points to arrive at a price for the reservation is not the same as renting points.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Disney would not allow the renting of "points".  Renting "points" implies giving temporary custody and control of points to an entity other than the owner.  That is not allowed under the DVC contract except in a point transfer which are only allowed once a year in or out.  Renting accommodations procured by points is allowed.
> 
> From David's Rental Agreement (for example)
> "The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $0000.00 US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation, using Member's Disney Vacation Club points, at RESORT in a ROOM TYPE to arrive on ARRIVAL DATE and depart on DEPARTURE DATE with a confirmation number of #########. "
> 
> With that in mind, if the owner can no longer provide a confirmed reservation then this contract is void and the renter is entitled to a full refund.
> 
> Just my opinions though...





Sandisw said:


> Someone posted somewhere that the contract or deed specifically mentions that points can not be rented, as they simply represent a fractional share of ownership in a resort.



Yeah, owners cannot rent or sell points without transferring their ownership interest. 

If someone wants to sell me their points for the $14.50 a point they got, I'm all ears.


----------



## Dentam

yankeesfan123 said:


> I am in the same boat (August trip) but I honestly expect to lose my $3400. Even if the resorts are open, I’m not sure I’d bring my family of 6 down.  Unless Dave’s wants to graciously check to see if my owners are willing the rebook me, I think I’m out the money. But David’s is under no obligation to do that, and nor are the owners.



I may lose my money as well.  Mine was about $1,350 and I paid it last October so at least it's not money out of my pocket in the present day situation.  I also hadn't bought airfare or park tickets yet, so that's good.  Still, I could definitely use that money for other things at this point, or would ideally just love to have a reservation at a later date to look forward to.  I'm prepared, like you, to lose that money though.

Still, I have no idea how the parks or resorts can open and keep their current level of reservations... I just read that developing a vaccine even in 18 months would be unheard of.  The fastest one ever developed took four years!


----------



## VeroGuy

After seeing the latest update from David’s my worry about this situation is a little less. I Would hope that going forward he at least issues a weekly update on the situation to help tamp down the anxiety that both renters and owners are having over this situation.

It sounds promising and most will be happy with these results as they can probably find time and money within the 15 month period to take a trip, even if it costs a little more than the amount of the original reservation.  I would still like to see the fine print before getting to excited though.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> Someone posted somewhere that the contract or deed specifically mentions that points can not be rented, as they simply represent a fractional share of ownership in a resort.


Disney allows you to rent points providing it’s not done on a commercial scale. Disney basically rent the points they own every year.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> Yeah, owners cannot rent or sell points without transferring their ownership interest.
> 
> If someone wants to sell me their points for the $14.50 a point they got, I'm all ears.
> 
> View attachment 486929


Not correct. You can transfer on a one off basis points from one owner to another.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> Disney allows you to rent points providing it’s not done on a commercial scale. Disney basically rent the points they own every year.



Yes, we can rent a reservation made with points.

The language that was posted above specifically states points can nit ,  It May be a small distinction, but technically, it is the reservation we are allowed rent not the actual points themselves.


----------



## Krandor

VeroGuy said:


> After seeing the latest update from David’s my worry about this situation is a little less. I Would hope that going forward he at least issues a weekly update on the situation to help tamp down the anxiety that both renters and owners are having over this situation.
> 
> It sounds promising and most will be happy with these results as they can probably find time and money within the 15 month period to take a trip, even if it costs a little more than the amount of the original reservation.  I would still like to see the fine print before getting to excited though.



The question is can david afford to pay for everybody to be able to take a trip within 15 months?


----------



## LAX

Nennie said:


> I've been pretty negative towards David's and the way they've handled things thus far, but have to say that I'm impressed that they are giving the renters so many options, plus 15 months to rebook.  *I think they are going to survive this*!



I think it's still too early to say. I have nothing against David's as a company, but I think he is going to have a hard time getting owners in the future to rent their points through him after reports of some owners getting screwed.

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> The question is can david afford to pay for everybody to be able to take a trip within 15 months?



I wonder too.  I would think the vouchers will be dependent on the current owners who had renters during the closed period either returning the 70% of renting the points again to a new renter so that money can be used to cover cost of the voucher,

Who makes up the difference If you have an owner walking away with the 70% because the points that were used are expiring?


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> I wonder too.  I would think the vouchers will be dependent on the current owners who had renters during the closed period either returning the 70% of renting the points again to a new renter so that money can be used to cover cost of the voucher,
> 
> Who makes up the difference If you have an owner walking away with the 70% because the points that were used are expiring?




And chargebacks.... 

If I was a renter I don't think I'd take the gamble.


----------



## CaliAdventurer

Update on promised refund (before the "credit" announcement)-  Have not received anything and after an email last week, I was told it would be checked on, again.  Since, at least I found out they were expiring points, I will likely let it go, its only a 3 night 1 bed stay.   BUT I also rented a 2 bed for 10 nights in October and I'm starting to worry that they may be out of business by then and that would be a had pill to swallow.  The only silver lining is that by not going for a bit means I may finally catch up on my own points!


----------



## Grnl706

Newest post from David's:

A Timeline Update about the DVCR Travel Credit!
As previously announced, we are issuing guests whose travel dates overlap the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David's Vacation Club Rentals.
Starting Thursday April 16th, the Travel Credit system will be rolled out, and we'll begin contacting our guests to provide them with the exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.
Additionally, after listening to the feedback from our guests, we've extended the timeline for the travel credit; guests will have 24 months from the date of issue to redeem their Credit.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Amymouse13 said:


> I underlined this part of contract when I made my chargeback... And the letter from David's saying my reservation was cancelled.


When did you actually get a letter saying your reservation was canceled? My trip for April 18th to Aulani has not sent me anything from David's. Nor have I received an update email stating more about the credit.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Grnl706 said:


> Newest post from David's:
> 
> A Timeline Update about the DVCR Travel Credit!
> As previously announced, we are issuing guests whose travel dates overlap the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David's Vacation Club Rentals.
> Starting Thursday April 16th, the Travel Credit system will be rolled out, and we'll begin contacting our guests to provide them with the exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.
> Additionally, after listening to the feedback from our guests, we've extended the timeline for the travel credit; guests will have 24 months from the date of issue to redeem their Credit.


Hopefully they are still in business in 24 months.


----------



## Frustrated renter

foodiddiedoo said:


> When did you actually get a letter saying your reservation was canceled? My trip for April 18th to Aulani has not sent me anything from David's. Nor have I received an update email stating more about the credit.



My April 20 reservation hasn’t even been canceled yet. Your Aulani may not be cancelled yet either.  DVC said they were canceling reservations a week before check in.  

Also, the updates I’ve seen have been on David’s website and Facebook pages. The only email I’ve received is the original.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Frustrated renter said:


> My April 20 reservation hasn’t even been canceled yet. Your Aulani may not be cancelled yet either.  DVC said they were canceling reservations a week before check in.
> 
> Also, the updates I’ve seen have been on David’s website and Facebook pages. The only email I’ve received is the original.


Yes my Aulani reservation still shows active and even will let me do online check in.


----------



## Madame

I will never use David’s to rent points again. 3 emails to them weeks ago and I offered to return the 70%, AFTER I cancel the reservation and make sure my borrowed 2020 points are returned to their UY.  I warned them that DVC might reverse the decision to return borrowed points at any time.  Then they send me this:  they want me NOT to cancel AND return the 70% If that doesn’t take nerve.  I told them to get bent.They’re establishing a damned Ponzi scheme.

I contacted my renter weeks ago, letting them know that I would help out.  They weren’t too interested (maybe sure WDW would be open).  Got a panic email a few days ago.  Asking me what to do....  yeah.  I tried to help you weeks ago.  Contact David’s...  good luck with that...


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> I will never use David’s to rent points again. 3 emails to them weeks ago and I offered to return the 70%, AFTER I cancel the reservation and make sure my borrowed 2020 points are returned to their UY.  I warned them that DVC might reverse the decision to return borrowed points at any time.  Then they send me this:  they want me NOT to cancel AND return the 70% If that doesn’t take nerve.  I told them to get bent.They’re establishing a damned Ponzi scheme.
> 
> I contacted my renter weeks ago, letting them know that I would help out.  They weren’t too interested (maybe sure WDW would be open).  Got a panic email a few days ago.  Asking me what to do....  yeah.  I tried to help you weeks ago.  Contact David’s...  good luck with that...View attachment 487233



They don’t want you to do the canceling because then the renter would be able to claim that you breached and they get the money back.

And, of course, that doesn’t work for their voucher model. I am so sorry that your efforts to actually help the renter you contracted with though David’s wasn't the priority For him...and now it sounds as if the renter realizes that too


----------



## Madame

Sandisw said:


> They don’t want you to do the canceling because then the renter would be able to claim that you breached and they get the money back.
> 
> And, of course, that doesn’t work for their voucher model. I am so sorry that your efforts to actually help the renter you contracted with though David’s wasn't the priority For him...and now it sounds as if the renter realizes that too


Yes.  And honestly that’s why I am not canceling myself.  DVC will cancel the reservation May 2.  If my points are stuck and expire July 31 I will ask for the remaining 30% but not hold my breath.  I was willing to help in anyway I could, but not on terms that will burn me.  I’m working 12 hr days from home while homeschooling 3 kids and taking care of household chores.  I don’t have time for this game.  They need to just refund the renters who can be refunded *while* they can be refunded.


----------



## McCrae

Madame said:


> I will never use David’s to rent points again. 3 emails to them weeks ago and I offered to return the 70%, AFTER I cancel the reservation and make sure my borrowed 2020 points are returned to their UY.  I warned them that DVC might reverse the decision to return borrowed points at any time.  Then they send me this:  they want me NOT to cancel AND return the 70% If that doesn’t take nerve.  I told them to get bent.They’re establishing a damned Ponzi scheme.
> 
> I contacted my renter weeks ago, letting them know that I would help out.  They weren’t too interested (maybe sure WDW would be open).  Got a panic email a few days ago.  Asking me what to do....  yeah.  I tried to help you weeks ago.  Contact David’s...  good luck with that...View attachment 487233



Ouch...You have now broken the contract and have become liable.


----------



## Madame

McCrae said:


> Ouch...You have now broken the contract and have become liable.


Sorry?  Liable for what exactly?  I already told them I’d return the money, reclaim my points and be done.  I also directed the renter to contact David’s ASAP as I was (and continue to be) worried DVC will stop returning borrowed points.  Not sure what I’m liable for.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Madame said:


> Sorry?


... you canceled it. You can’t do that. Should’ve waited for Disney to cancel...


----------



## Madame

yankeesfan123 said:


> ... you canceled it. You can’t do that. Should’ve waited for Disney to cancel...


I didn’t cancel it.  Where did I say that.  God I forgot how much I hate this board.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> ... you canceled it. You can’t do that. Should’ve waited for Disney to cancel...



She didn’t cancel it,  She wrote to tell them that she would only return the money if she canceled and was assured she would get her points back,

They said, don’t cancel but send money back Anyway.


----------



## Madame

Sandisw said:


> She didn’t cancel it,  She wrote to tell them that she would only return the money if she canceled and was assured she would get her points back,
> 
> They said, don’t cancel but send money back Anyway.


Thx.  I don’t know how that wasn’t clear, but obviously it wasn’t.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Madame said:


> I will never use David’s to rent points again. 3 emails to them weeks ago and I offered to return the 70%, AFTER I cancel the reservation and make sure my borrowed 2020 points are returned to their UY.  I warned them that DVC might reverse the decision to return borrowed points at any time.  Then they send me this:  they want me NOT to cancel AND return the 70% If that doesn’t take nerve.  I told them to get bent.They’re establishing a damned Ponzi scheme.
> 
> I contacted my renter weeks ago, letting them know that I would help out.  They weren’t too interested (maybe sure WDW would be open).  Got a panic email a few days ago.  Asking me what to do....  yeah.  I tried to help you weeks ago.  Contact David’s...  good luck with that...View attachment 487233


Read your second sentence to mean that you emailed them AFTER you canceled.

My apologies. But sheesh... didn’t mean to make you hate the board.


----------



## Madame

yankeesfan123 said:


> Read your second sentence to mean that you emailed them AFTER you canceled.
> 
> My apologies. But sheesh... didn’t mean to make you hate the board.


No worries.  The hatred was well established before your comment, so no need to take that responsibility on


----------



## cvjw

So what would happen IF she broke the contract by canceling the reservation before David’s wanted her too?  What could David’s do to her other than wanting their 70% back?


----------



## Amymouse13

I wrote exactly that- Ponzi scheme, in my documentation for chargeback.  I had asked about Disney being closed and wanting to reschedule or see what options were and they said one owner cancelled my reservation.  The other did as well.  I don't have email for the one but was cancelled 18 days before trip so not Disney.  They probably had folks cancel before they dreamed up their Ponzi scheme.  No way they can pay for cash reservations 2 years out of they don't get cash back from owners.  Shady as f.


----------



## fsjking

McCrae said:


> Not correct. You can transfer on a one off basis points from one owner to another.



To another owner. Too many people on here want to claim they rented and/or sold points to renters.


----------



## Amymouse13

Disney furloughed 42,000 employees per news.  David's window of voucher keeps getting smaller.


----------



## poofyo101

Amymouse13 said:


> I wrote exactly that- Ponzi scheme, in my documentation for chargeback.  I had asked about Disney being closed and wanting to reschedule or see what options were and they said one owner cancelled my reservation.  The other did as well.  I don't have email for the one but was cancelled 18 days before trip so not Disney.  They probably had folks cancel before they dreamed up their Ponzi scheme.  No way they can pay for cash reservations 2 years out of they don't get cash back from owners.  Shady as f.


It sure does sound like a ponzi scheme right now.


----------



## ziravan

fsjking said:


> To another owner. Too many people on here want to claim they rented and/or sold points to renters.


It’s a game of semantics, and has long been an issue of debate on this and other boards.

My contract says rents points. I’ve been told countless times on this board that the technical term is “renting a reservation”. What really matters is not Disney’s definition or even yours, but the legal understanding beween me and my client, as evidenced by the contract between us. And that contract says that the renter has a reservation based upon the value of points and if that reservation cannot be fulfilled, any restitution is based upon the remaining value of the points. That is and was a far better deal than the alternative: a force majeure clause that says the renter agrees to a 50% loss in the event of circumstances beyond the parties  to fulfill the reservation. In the case of my renter affected, that definition entitled them to a rebooking at full value, which is already booked, based on the remaining value of the points that were still more than good for use in the Fall.

It matters very much for people like David’s to limit their understanding of the contract to renting a specific reservation. In my case, because I’m willing to be flexible with moving dates, it very much matters that my renters understand that that flexibility is a function of the residual value of the points themselves. That distinction served my affected renter quite well.

All that said, I’m also the type of guy to use the term “clip”, and especially my personal favorite expression, “bullets in a clip”- in a gun owners forum.... and if that’s not your cup of tea, just know that there are dozens of readers out there silently saying to themselves, “rounds in a magazine.”


----------



## waltfan1957

CraigInPA said:


> I'm absolutely floored by that response from David's.
> 
> They're basically saying that if you, as the owner, reach out and help your renter, that David's will not be paying the final 30% due on check in day!
> 
> That is the most outrageous thing they've done yet, and I didn't think they could top what they already had done!


That's not what it says at all.


----------



## waltfan1957

McCrae said:


> Why should the owner lose out?


How are you losing out if you got to keep the 70% and got your points back I don't understand this


----------



## waltfan1957

Amymouse13 said:


> One difference is you chose to cancel.  Had the hotel closed or cancelled your reservation the situation night be different...


----------



## Deb & Bill

waltfan1957 said:


> How are you losing out if you got to keep the 70% and got your points back I don't understand this


If the points expired before they could be used again (very likely in many cases) and the owner gave back the 70% (really only 53% of the total, but 70% of what they were supposed to  get), the owner winds up with nothing.  April 2019 points expired on Mar 31, 2010.  June 2019 points expire on May 31, 2020 and DVC isn't permitting owners to bank those points.  If the owner used banked 2018 points those expired and could not be banked a second time.


----------



## McCrae

waltfan1957 said:


> How are you losing out if you got to keep the 70% and got your points back I don't understand this


In the context of my reply owners would lose out. They poster was seeking a refund. The owner potentially will have paid annual dues on points they can’t use.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> To another owner. Too many people on here want to claim they rented and/or sold points to renters.


Doesn’t matter, it makes it clear you can sell points.

The contract owners have with David’s is for points. Points do not have to be used for DVC use. They could be rented for Disney Cruises, Disney Hotels, Disney Adventure holidays and non Disney Vacations with other companies such as Hilton. David’s contract with renters is different to the one he has with owners. Providing a owner does not cancel a reservation David’s regard the contract as being completed with the owner.


----------



## boxer11

I wouldn't wait on David's to figure it out and request a full refund.  I would first contact David's then my credit card company ASAP. Let the credit card company & David's fight it out over the charge back. Most if not all companies in the travel business are issuing full refunds and letting customers back out of any contracts. If David's files for bankruptcy the renter will be left with 0 and a worthless travel credit voucher. It's the customers "renters" money and they shouldn't be left holding the bag.


----------



## CraigInPA

boxer11 said:


> If David's files for bankruptcy the renter will be left with 0 and a worthless travel credit voucher. It's the customers "renters" money and they shouldn't be left holding the bag.



It is also the 30% owed to owners that hasn't been paid for future rentals, and apparently some rentals that were cancelled by DVC that David's decided to not pay. 

I agree with your advice, though. If I was a renter holding a cancelled by DVC reservation, I would go the chargeback route with my credit card company instead of receiving a potentially worthless travel voucher.


----------



## Amymouse13

CraigInPA said:


> It is also the 30% owed to owners that hasn't been paid for future rentals, and apparently some rentals that were cancelled by DVC that David's decided to not pay.
> 
> I agree with your advice, though. If I was a renter holding a cancelled by DVC reservation, I would go the chargeback route with my credit card company instead of receiving a potentially worthless travel voucher.



And I already sent my paperwork in for chargeback so no thanks on voucher... If I ever hear from them.  Freaking con artists.  Too late lol


----------



## fsjking

ziravan said:


> It’s a game of semantics, and has long been an issue of debate on this and other boards.
> 
> My contract says rents points. I’ve been told countless times on this board that the technical term is “renting a reservation”. What really matters is not Disney’s definition or even yours, but the legal understanding beween me and my client, as evidenced by the contract between us. And that contract says that the renter has a reservation based upon the value of points and if that reservation cannot be fulfilled, any restitution is based upon the remaining value of the points. That is and was a far better deal than the alternative: a force majeure clause that says the renter agrees to a 50% loss in the event of circumstances beyond the parties  to fulfill the reservation. In the case of my renter affected, that definition entitled them to a rebooking at full value, which is already booked, based on the remaining value of the points that were still more than good for use in the Fall.
> 
> It matters very much for people like David’s to limit their understanding of the contract to renting a specific reservation. In my case, because I’m willing to be flexible with moving dates, it very much matters that my renters understand that that flexibility is a function of the residual value of the points themselves. That distinction served my affected renter quite well.
> 
> All that said, I’m also the type of guy to use the term “clip”, and especially my personal favorite expression, “bullets in a clip”- in a gun owners forum.... and if that’s not your cup of tea, just know that there are dozens of readers out there silently saying to themselves, “rounds in a magazine.”





McCrae said:


> Doesn’t matter, it makes it clear you can sell points.
> 
> The contract owners have with David’s is for points. Points do not have to be used for DVC use. They could be rented for Disney Cruises, Disney Hotels, Disney Adventure holidays and non Disney Vacations with other companies such as Hilton. David’s contract with renters is different to the one he has with owners. Providing a owner does not cancel a reservation David’s regard the contract as being completed with the owner.



Your contract with David's or a renter is irrelevant to the point transfer question. Show where in your contract with DVC that you have the right to sell, rent, or transfer points to someone who is not a DVC owner, not just make a reservation for someone using points. If you don't have that, it doesn't matter what your contract with David's or a renter says. You don't have the legal right to do it. You can use your points to make reservations or cruises all day. You can't rent or sell the points to a non-owner. I showed in a contract the proof. Now it's your turn. If you can't, your case is lost.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> Your contract with David's or a renter is irrelevant to the point transfer question. Show where in your contract with DVC that you have the right to sell, rent, or transfer points to someone who is not a DVC owner, not just make a reservation for someone using points. If you don't have that, it doesn't matter what your contract with David's or a renter says. You don't have the legal right to do it. You can use your points to make reservations or cruises all day. You can't rent or sell the points to a non-owner. I showed in a contract the proof. Now it's your turn. If you can't, your case is lost.



If a renter cannot receive points because they are not a member it’s their problem. If they want points transferred to them they can become members. As an owner we don’t know or care about the membership status of the renter. It’s up to the renter to understand what they are buying.

I. Owners contracts are with David’s. Any payment for breaching that contract are made to David’s, not directly to any renter. Refunds from owners in connection with the Virus are not being paid  to any renter. David’s is keeping them.

2. Renters pay David’s they don’t pay the owners.

3. The owners contract is very clear. They get paid when the reservation is made and receive a balance when a renter checks in. Owners are only liable for a refund if they cancel the reservation or take action to stop it happening.

4. The no refunds or changes clause is signed by the renter.

As an owner who is willing to help I know that I have Hee Haw liability to do anything I don’t want to. Any help I give is down to my goodwill.

Renters may have a claim against David’s, but they have zero chance of making a successful claim against owners.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> If a renter cannot receive points because they are not a member it’s their problem. If they want points transferred to them they can become members. As an owner we don’t know or care about the membership status of the renter. It’s up to the renter to understand what they are buying.
> 
> I. Owners contracts are with David’s. Any payment for breaching that contract are made to David’s, not directly to any renter. Refunds from owners in connection with the Virus are not being paid  to any renter. David’s is keeping them.
> 
> 2. Renters pay David’s they don’t pay the owners.
> 
> 3. The owners contract is very clear. They get paid when the reservation is made and receive a balance when a renter checks in. Owners are only liable for a refund if they cancel the reservation or take action to stop it happening.
> 
> 4. The no refunds or changes clause is signed by the renter.
> 
> As an owner who is willing to help I know that I have Hee Haw liability to do anything I don’t want to. Any help I give is down to my goodwill.
> 
> Renters may have a claim against David’s, but they have zero chance of making a successful claim against owners.



I think you are missing the point being made,  There is actual contract language, whether you agree or not, that specifically says points can not  rented,

There is also contract language that allows us to rent reservations.

So, per POS, an owner is allowed to a rent a reservation.  But , If an owner insists they rent points, not reservations, then they have, in essence, violated one aspect of the ownership document.

If I was a renter, and was having trouble with Davids claiming that, I would point out I had paid for something that was not legally allowed


----------



## lovethesun12

McCrae said:


> If a renter cannot receive points because they are not a member it’s their problem. If they want points transferred to them they can become members. As an owner we don’t know or care about the membership status of the renter. It’s up to the renter to understand what they are buying.
> 
> I. Owners contracts are with David’s. Any payment for breaching that contract are made to David’s, not directly to any renter. Refunds from owners in connection with the Virus are not being paid  to any renter. David’s is keeping them.
> 
> 2. Renters pay David’s they don’t pay the owners.
> 
> 3. The owners contract is very clear. They get paid when the reservation is made and receive a balance when a renter checks in. Owners are only liable for a refund if they cancel the reservation or take action to stop it happening.
> 
> 4. The no refunds or changes clause is signed by the renter.
> 
> As an owner who is willing to help I know that I have Hee Haw liability to do anything I don’t want to. Any help I give is down to my goodwill.
> 
> Renters may have a claim against David’s, but they have zero chance of making a successful claim against owners.


I reread my contract after reading this. It says the owner agrees to provide a reservation from date x to date y. They are not providing that. So the contract seems it would have to be void.


----------



## ziravan

Sandisw said:


> I think you are missing the point being made,  There is actual contract language, whether you agree or not, that specifically says points can not  rented,
> 
> There is also contract language that allows us to rent reservations.
> 
> So, per POS, an owner is allowed to a rent a reservation.  But , If an owner insists they rent points, not reservations, then they have, in essence, violated one aspect of the ownership document.
> 
> If I was a renter, and was having trouble with Davids claiming that, I would point out I had paid for something that was not legally allowed


Again, it’s semantics and if you read the POS, even Disney understands that this is a wordplay to meet Florida Timeshare law.

How does a member rent from DVC? They, wait for it, buy one-time-use points. That’s DVC’s own expression of their points rental business.

When DVC charges dues, it does so by the point. But how can DVC assess a charge per point if points have no value?? It’s a conspiracy I tell you!!

How are reservations priced through David’s? Yes, by the point - but if the owner’s contract with Disney says the points have no value (and it does), then David’s broke the rules by charging a value per point and all his contracts are void, having violated the POS of the owners.

or

We can understand that regardless whether we call them bullets or rounds, clips or magazines, everybody here knows that points are what are loaded into reservations. And just like firepower is gauged by the size of the round (.45, 22lr), reservations are typically metered by the price per point - regardless what Disney officially claims are the value of those points.

Points are a purchase medium for DVC reservations and have value equal to the reservation value divided by the number of points necessary to secure the reservation. Securing that reservation means first acquiring the points, at the value they represent. Everything else is wordplay.

My private contract with renters is specific enough to convey what is being purchased and the roles both parties play in turning that purchase into a valid reservation. If I broke “the rules” by refusing to entertain the fiction that points have no value, then so did Disney. So did David’s.


----------



## Sandisw

ziravan said:


> Again, it’s semantics and if you read the POS, even Disney understands that this is a wordplay to meet Florida Timeshare law.
> 
> How does a member rent from DVC? They, wait for it, buy one-time-use points. That’s DVC’s own expression of their points rental business.
> 
> When DVC charges dues, it does so by the point. But how can DVC assess a charge per point if points have no value?? It’s a conspiracy I tell you!!
> 
> How are reservations priced through David’s? Yes, by the point - but if the owner’s contract with Disney says the points have no value (and it does), then David’s broke the rules by charging a value per point and all his contracts are void, having violated the POS of the owners.
> 
> or
> 
> We can understand that regardless whether we call them bullets or rounds, clips or magazines, everybody here knows that points are what are loaded into reservations. And just like firepower is gauged by the size of the round (.45, 22lr), reservations are typically metered by the price per point - regardless what Disney officially claims are the value of those points.
> 
> Points are a purchase medium for DVC reservations and have value equal to the reservation value divided by the number of points necessary to secure the reservation. Securing that reservation means first acquiring the points, at the value they represent. Everything else is wordplay.
> 
> My private contract with renters is specific enough to convey what is being purchased and the roles both parties play in turning that purchase into a valid reservation. If I broke “the rules” by refusing to entertain the fiction that points have no value, then so did Disney. So did David’s.



Disney is actually transferring their own points to another owner.  It’s not in anyway like a rental.

And, yes, Disney does have different rules then we do as owners so they are allowed to charge for them, where we can not charge for a transfer.

It is a point that not all agree.  I still maintain that what owners do, regardless of language used, is rent reservations made with points. It’s okay others disagree.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

Sandisw said:


> Disney is actually transferring their own points to another owner.  It’s not in anyway like a rental.



If they were transferring it would have to be current points and they would be bankable which the OTU points are not.  I don't know what it really is that DVC is doing with the OTU points.  A quasi transfer?  A limited transfer?  Now that you bring it up it's a bit strange.  Another of their own rules.


----------



## Sandisw

KAT4DISNEY said:


> If they were transferring it would have to be current points and they would be bankable which the OTU points are not.  I don't know what it really is that DVC is doing with the OTU points.  A quasi transfer?  A limited transfer?  Now that you bring it up it's a bit strange.  Another of their own rules.



Yes, there own rules, but since they go into your account, it is a transfer from them to you, but are not bankable


----------



## fsjking

McCrae said:


> If a renter cannot receive points because they are not a member it’s their problem. If they want points transferred to them they can become members. As an owner we don’t know or care about the membership status of the renter. It’s up to the renter to understand what they are buying.
> 
> I. Owners contracts are with David’s. Any payment for breaching that contract are made to David’s, not directly to any renter. Refunds from owners in connection with the Virus are not being paid  to any renter. David’s is keeping them.
> 
> 2. Renters pay David’s they don’t pay the owners.
> 
> 3. The owners contract is very clear. They get paid when the reservation is made and receive a balance when a renter checks in. Owners are only liable for a refund if they cancel the reservation or take action to stop it happening.
> 
> 4. The no refunds or changes clause is signed by the renter.
> 
> As an owner who is willing to help I know that I have Hee Haw liability to do anything I don’t want to. Any help I give is down to my goodwill.
> 
> Renters may have a claim against David’s, but they have zero chance of making a successful claim against owners.



Tell you what. Call DVC, or your lawyer, up. Let them read your purchase contract. Ask them whose problem it is that you are trying to transfer points to a non-member. You clearly are incapable of understanding your contract or just are choosing to ignore what you signed. Neither makes you right. 



ziravan said:


> Again, it’s semantics and if you read the POS, even Disney understands that this is a wordplay to meet Florida Timeshare law.
> 
> How does a member rent from DVC? They, wait for it, buy one-time-use points. That’s DVC’s own expression of their points rental business.
> 
> When DVC charges dues, it does so by the point. But how can DVC assess a charge per point if points have no value?? It’s a conspiracy I tell you!!
> 
> How are reservations priced through David’s? Yes, by the point - but if the owner’s contract with Disney says the points have no value (and it does), then David’s broke the rules by charging a value per point and all his contracts are void, having violated the POS of the owners.
> 
> or
> 
> We can understand that regardless whether we call them bullets or rounds, clips or magazines, everybody here knows that points are what are loaded into reservations. And just like firepower is gauged by the size of the round (.45, 22lr), reservations are typically metered by the price per point - regardless what Disney officially claims are the value of those points.
> 
> Points are a purchase medium for DVC reservations and have value equal to the reservation value divided by the number of points necessary to secure the reservation. Securing that reservation means first acquiring the points, at the value they represent. Everything else is wordplay.
> 
> My private contract with renters is specific enough to convey what is being purchased and the roles both parties play in turning that purchase into a valid reservation. If I broke “the rules” by refusing to entertain the fiction that points have no value, then so did Disney. So did David’s.



To use your gun analogy, a parent can take a minor out and let them shoot a handgun. They cannot give them the gun to own. Federal law prohibits that. Your contract with DVC prevents you from giving possession of points to a non-member. But you can make them a reservation using those points. Just like you can't write a contract with a 12 year old that takes precedence over federal law, you can't make a contract saying you are renting someone points that would over rule your contract with DVC. The fact that DVC will not talk to a non-member about a reservation or let them use points to make new ones is all the proof you need.


----------



## ziravan

Sandisw said:


> Yes, there own rules, but since they go into your account, it is a transfer from them to you, but are not bankable


And again, by the same terms, DVC says points cannot be transferred for value and yet it does so anyway.

Whether the value is in the points or the “ownership interest” is purposefully a game of semantics that everyone, including Disney, is playing,

I do not dispute Disney’s legal layout to satisfy Florida timeshare law that the ownership is an actual interest and not points. It is a fiction that the points hold no value on their own.

Sort of reminds me of the internet argument on currency vs money. What is what? I’m just not at all vested in the argument that’s there’s a substantial difference between points and reservations. You can point to contract language all you like. Even Disney, through their actions, acknowledge that points having no value is just a polite fiction between them and Florida Law.

Could DVC contest as a breach of contract an owner placing value directly in points and ascribing that value by rent to someone else? Possibly, but they’d spend quite a bit of time in doing so having to defend their own actions as a point owner that does the exact same thing.


----------



## Amymouse13

This hasn't been brought up recently... But what's dvc doing for owners?  Saw some article show up in my Google about how dvc was screwing owners.  So how long can Disney be closed and they say too bad so sad?  (Topic adjacent relevant if they later don't let all points expire)


----------



## Sandisw

ziravan said:


> And again, by the same terms, DVC says points cannot be transferred for value and yet it does so anyway.
> 
> Whether the value is in the points or the “ownership interest” is purposefully a game of semantics that everyone, including Disney, is playing,
> 
> I do not dispute Disney’s legal layout to satisfy Florida timeshare law that the ownership is an actual interest and not points. It is a fiction that the points hold no value on their own.
> 
> Sort of reminds me of the internet argument on currency vs money. What is what? I’m just not at all vested in the argument that’s there’s a substantial difference between points and reservations. You can point to contract language all you like. Even Disney, through their actions, acknowledge that points having no value is just a polite fiction between them and Florida Law.
> 
> Could DVC contest as a breach of contract an owner placing value directly in points and ascribing that value by rent to someone else? Possibly, but they’d spend quite a bit of time in doing so having to defend their own actions as a point owner that does the exact same thing.



They can do it because they are allowed to have different rules.  The POS gives them that right.  Just like They don’t have to follow the 11 month booking rule.

I think this started when some insisted that the renter was out of luck and it had nothing to do with the reservation because they rented points.

Davids new voucher system is clearer now,  It says you can use it for a points reservstion, cash reservation, etc.  So, it’s not being billed as just points.

I agree, DVC is not going after anyone and it is, as you have said, a semantically difference.  But, in practical terms, for any renter who is being Told that expecting the reservation isn’t necessary because they rented points, it does IMO.


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> This hasn't been brought up recently... But what's dvc doing for owners?  Saw some article show up in my Google about how dvc was screwing owners.  So how long can Disney be closed and they say too bad so sad?  (Topic adjacent relevant if they later don't let all points expire)



DVC has waived holding, which means points are returned without restrictions that normally happen if a reservation is canceled less than 31 days before check in.

DVC is also allowing those points that were borrowed to be returned to their original UY,

DVC is keeping the banking rules in place and ths is what has people  upset.  When an owner books points toward the end of the UY it is risky because if something happens, they still expire at the end of it,

So, banked points and points that were beyond the banking window have to be used as normal, no changes,  The reason is moving all of those points forward will have a huge impact and imbalance in the system, so DVC has said they can’t do anything for those types of points until this is over,  Once it is, they may be able to do something so owners don’t lose them,


----------



## ziravan

Sandisw said:


> They can do it because they are allowed to have different rules.  The POS gives them that right.  Just like They don’t have to follow the 11 month booking rule.
> 
> I think this started when some insisted that the renter was out of luck and it had nothing to do with the reservation because they rented points.
> 
> Davids new voucher system is clearer now,  It says you can use it for a points reservstion, cash reservation, etc.  So, it’s not being billed as just points.
> 
> I agree, DVC is not going after anyone and it is, as you have said, a semantically difference.  But, in practical terms, for any renter who is being Told that expecting the reservation isn’t necessary because they rented points, it does IMO.


I see now. We’re coming from different ends.

“It’s points so if a reservation didn’t happen it doesn’t count,” wasn’t an argument I was trying to make.

In my private rental, our contractual understanding regarding a reservation being valid within the viability of the specific points used was a benefit for my renter, not an excuse to not honor the deal.


----------



## skatalite

Reading all of this has me wondering what's going to come of our November/December 2020 trip, which we booked lodging for via David's.

I understand things are up in the air right now when it comes to re-opening dates for the parks, etc., but I'm concerned with all of the chatter in this thread about David's closing down and leaving folks high and dry.

It doesn't seem, as of right now since my reservations are not directly impacted by the closure, there's anything I can do.

All of the information and dialogue you're having is much appreciated!


----------



## yankeesfan123

skatalite said:


> Reading all of this has me wondering what's going to come of our November/December 2020 trip, which we booked lodging for via David's.
> 
> I understand things are up in the air right now when it comes to re-opening dates for the parks, etc., but I'm concerned with all of the chatter in this thread about David's closing down and leaving folks high and dry.
> 
> It doesn't seem, as of right now since my reservations are not directly impacted by the closure, there's nothing I can do.
> 
> All of the information and dialogue you're having is much appreciated!


I’d hope that even if David’s shuts down, the owner would keep your reservation in place. The owner would be out some money though, so who knows.


----------



## Dentam

skatalite said:


> Reading all of this has me wondering what's going to come of our November/December 2020 trip, which we booked lodging for via David's.
> 
> I understand things are up in the air right now when it comes to re-opening dates for the parks, etc., but I'm concerned with all of the chatter in this thread about David's closing down and leaving folks high and dry.
> 
> It doesn't seem, as of right now since my reservations are not directly impacted by the closure, there's nothing I can do.
> 
> All of the information and dialogue you're having is much appreciated!



I'm booked through David's for Labor Day week and have the same concerns.  I don't see how the parks can reopen while still accommodating the levels of reservations booked prior to the pandemic until a vaccine is developed.  I'm not expecting WDW to be open in September, or at least not at full capacity.  I just wonder if I'll be able to get my money back from David's - wondering if the business will last that long?  I'm thinking from reading this thread that I could get the money back from the cc I used to book it though.  Not sure if I'm understanding that correctly though.  It's a wait and see game at this point!


----------



## Dracula

I would love to keep the reservations in place, but having 5 more reservations with David's through the end of 2020, I am not ready to take that big of a loss. So here's my plan:
1. Once David's 30% is due for the first reservation, I will send him a payment reminder
2. Three business days later, I will send David a notice of default and will advise that I will cancel the other reservations
3. Three more business days later, I will reach out to the 4 remaining renters to advise of David's default, explain their reservations need to be canceled, and suggest to them to initiate a credit card chargeback. If they choose to, they can re-instate their reservation by sending over 50% of the reservation cost. This is a fantastic saving for the renter, plus an additional choice - if they pass, I will have some points in holding status, which are still better than renting them out at $10/point.


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> I'm booked through David's for Labor Day week and have the same concerns.  I don't see how the parks can reopen while still accommodating the levels of reservations booked prior to the pandemic until a vaccine is developed.  I'm not expecting WDW to be open in September, or at least not at full capacity.  I just wonder if I'll be able to get my money back from David's - wondering if the business will last that long?  I'm thinking from reading this thread that I could get the money back from the cc I used to book it though.  Not sure if I'm understanding that correctly though.  It's a wait and see game at this point!



Based on what is happening, it doesn’t appear any refund will be given.  If the resort is actually closed, it appears you will be given a travel voucher for the amount paid to use within 2 years.

If the resort is open, and you just don’t feel comfortable going, you will most likely be out of luck as that would be your choice to cancel.

If you are not comfortable with the voucher, and believe a resort closing entitles you to a refund, then you can initiate the CC chargeback at that time.


----------



## LAX

Dentam said:


> I'm booked through David's for Labor Day week and have the same concerns.  I don't see how the parks can reopen while still accommodating the levels of reservations booked prior to the pandemic until a vaccine is developed.  I'm not expecting WDW to be open in September, or at least not at full capacity.  I just wonder if I'll be able to get my money back from David's - wondering if the business will last that long?  I'm thinking from reading this thread that I could get the money back from the cc I used to book it though.  Not sure if I'm understanding that correctly though.  It's a wait and see game at this point!



If the resort you reserved is open, you have no chance of a refund even if everything else around the resort are still closed, unfortunately. I think many businesses will have reopened at some capacities by September. It's debatable to what extent the parks will be opened, though. Good luck.

LAX


----------



## fsjking

Dracula said:


> I would love to keep the reservations in place, but having 5 more reservations with David's through the end of 2020, I am not ready to take that big of a loss. So here's my plan:
> 1. Once David's 30% is due for the first reservation, I will send him a payment reminder
> 2. Three business days later, I will send David a notice of default and will advise that I will cancel the other reservations
> 3. Three more business days later, I will reach out to the 4 remaining renters to advise of David's default, explain their reservations need to be canceled, and suggest to them to initiate a credit card chargeback. If they choose to, they can re-instate their reservation by sending over 50% of the reservation cost. This is a fantastic saving for the renter, plus an additional choice - if they pass, I will have some points in holding status, which are still better than renting them out at $10/point.



So you are saying you are going to cancel 4 reservations, keep the points and the 70% payment from those?


----------



## Grnl706

fsjking said:


> So you are saying you are going to cancel 4 reservations, keep the points and the 70% payment from those?


That's what it sounds like to me. Plus the renter pay again with the charge back not even being a guarantee?


----------



## Dentam

LAX said:


> If the resort you reserved is open, you have no chance of a refund even if everything else around the resort are still closed, unfortunately. I think many businesses will have reopened at come capacities by September. It's debatable to what extent the parks will be opened, though. Good luck.
> 
> LAX



Yes, I've already been told that on this thread and understand that - thank you!  I don't believe the resorts will open at full capacity if the parks don't and I also don't think it will be feasible for either to by September.  Like I said, it's a waiting game at this point to see what happens.


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> Based on what is happening, it doesn’t appear any refund will be given.  If the resort is actually closed, it appears you will be given a travel voucher for the amount paid to use within 2 years.
> 
> If the resort is open, and you just don’t feel comfortable going, you will most likely be out of luck as that would be your choice to cancel.
> 
> If you are not comfortable with the voucher, and believe a resort closing entitles you to a refund, then you can initiate the CC chargeback at that time.



Yes, I understand that and have already been told that on here - thanks!  I was responding to the person who posted about being in the same boat as me with a trip booked for later in the year.  I should have included "resorts" in my post instead of just saying "WDW".


----------



## Dracula

fsjking said:


> So you are saying you are going to cancel 4 reservations, keep the points and the 70% payment from those?


To clarify - David only passed over 50% of the market value of the points, and points that were blocked for 10 months, and in holding, don’t have nearly the same value as “fresh points”. So, yes, once David defaults, if the renter is not willing to do chargeback and rerent, I would have the points back and the 50% as compensation for losing money on the first reservation and now other points in holding status. And the renter should have all the money back.


----------



## Dracula

Grnl706 said:


> That's what it sounds like to me. Plus the renter pay again with the charge back not even being a guarantee?


I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.


----------



## fsjking

Dracula said:


> To clarify - David only passed over 50% of the market value of the points, and points that were blocked for 10 months, and in holding, don’t have nearly the same value as “fresh points”. So, yes, once David defaults, if the renter is not willing to do chargeback and rerent, I would have the points back and the 50% as compensation for losing money on the first reservation and now other points in holding status. And the renter should have all the money back.



Yeah. That's fraud. Good luck if your renters or David's decide to sue you. Posting here is pretty much stating your intent to defraud, so you should hope none of the parties follows along here and know your identity. Cancel your reservations now and return the money if you have no intention of honoring them. Anything else is violating your contract and pretty scummy.


----------



## starry_solo

Dracula said:


> I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.



why don’t you just send the renters the portion of the money back that you have?


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> To clarify - David only passed over 50% of the market value of the points, and points that were blocked for 10 months, and in holding, don’t have nearly the same value as “fresh points”. So, yes, once David defaults, if the renter is not willing to do chargeback and rerent, I would have the points back and the 50% as compensation for losing money on the first reservation and now other points in holding status. And the renter should have all the money back.



So, you are not concerned about breaching those other contracts? If you cancel, you are obligated to return the money  

Obviously, David’s would have to sue you,  I get that if he defaults on one contract, you would want out of the others, but not sure I understand why you think you get to breach and still keep money?


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.



I don’t think you need to go through with it, but I don’t think you should keep the money when you are the one breaking the contract


----------



## Grnl706

Dracula said:


> I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.



Good for you I guess?


----------



## Amymouse13

fsjking said:


> Yeah. That's fraud. Good luck if your renters or David's decide to sue you. Posting here is pretty much stating your intent to defraud, so you should hope none of the parties follows along here and know your identity. Cancel your reservations now and return the money if you have no intention of honoring them. Anything else is violating your contract and pretty scummy.



Maybe David's is hiring?


----------



## BWV Dreamin

If a owner has received any payment for points for a reservation, And that reservation can not be honored due to an act of God, that renter should be refunded the money if the points are returned to the owner. Period. Where is the integrity here? This is part of the risk when one decides to “rent” their points. I don’t know how people can live with themselves.


----------



## Bing Showei

Dracula said:


> I would love to keep the reservations in place, but having 5 more reservations with David's through the end of 2020, I am not ready to take that big of a loss. So here's my plan:
> 1. Once David's 30% is due for the first reservation, I will send him a payment reminder
> 2. Three business days later, I will send David a notice of default and will advise that I will cancel the other reservations
> 3. Three more business days later, I will reach out to the 4 remaining renters to advise of David's default, explain their reservations need to be canceled, and suggest to them to initiate a credit card chargeback. If they choose to, they can re-instate their reservation by sending over 50% of the reservation cost. This is a fantastic saving for the renter, plus an additional choice - if they pass, I will have some points in holding status, which are still better than renting them out at $10/point.


If you feel this strongly about it, why not cancel those future reservations and send David’s their money back? No future reservation at this point will go into holding.

If you’re just holding onto the money to see if you could double-dip, I hope any renter who comes across a self-proclaimed, blood-sucking DISboard member on the Rent/Trade board does their due diligence and looks at their posting history.


----------



## Dracula

Sandisw said:


> I don’t think you need to go through with it, but I don’t think you should keep the money when you are the one breaking the contract


I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.


----------



## Dracula

Bing Showei said:


> If you feel this strongly about it, why not cancel those future reservations and send David’s their money back? No future reservation at this point will go into holding.
> 
> If you’re just holding onto the money to see if you could double-dip, I hope any renter who comes across a self-proclaimed, blood-sucking DISboard member on the Rent/Trade board does their due diligence and looks at their posting history.


Because canceling any reservation before David is in default would be breaking my contract with David. I had multiple successful contracts with David and I hope he avoids bankruptcy and stays in business so we can do more in the future. This is all very hypothetical, assuming David would become insolvent.


----------



## Dracula

BWV Dreamin said:


> If a owner has received any payment for points for a reservation, And that reservation can not be honored due to an act of God, that renter should be refunded the money if the points are returned to the owner. Period. Where is the integrity here? This is part of the risk when one decides to “rent” their points. I don’t know how people can live with themselves.


I agree that not receiving some of the money is part of the risk an owner takes when renting through an intermediary. But, is there any risk the renter also takes when renting through the same intermediary? Does a credit card company assume a risk when processing payments for a travel agency, and gets paid for it? And, if all these parties take a risk, is there a good reason why the entire loss should be borne by the owner? I would like to understand what is the owner’s share of the loss - but 100% of the residual payment does not seem fair.


----------



## Dracula

Quick personal story here, last year we had dinner with friends that told us how they are saving money to one day take the kids to VGF, where they supposedly got married. In turn, we introduced them to DVC and explained the rental business, and how David’s is market leader, has been quickly finding us customers etc. We also suggested that we do business among us, avoiding David’s commission - but since VGF is not one of our home resorts, and it is in fairly high demand thus risky to book at seven months, they went ahead with David’s and rented almost 600 points to go to VGF the first week of May with parents, in-laws, the whole clan.

Fast forward to April 2020, both my friend and my spouse, like so many others, have been furloughed. He is understandably anxious about the $11k+ reservation, and would rather cancel or at least reschedule for 2021. And we are so relieved for not having done business with our friends - if these were expiring points, it would have been a very difficult conversation as to what needs to happen next. I guess they would need to decide whether to do a chargeback or accept a credit voucher - I know what I would do but would rather not offer them any more advice.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Dracula said:


> Quick personal story here, last year we had dinner with friends that told us how they are saving money to one day take the kids to VGF, where they supposedly got married. In turn, we introduced them to DVC and explained the rental business, and how David’s is market leader, has been quickly finding us customers etc. We also suggested that we do business among us, avoiding David’s commission - but since VGF is not one of our home resorts, and it is in fairly high demand thus risky to book at seven months, they went ahead with David’s and rented almost 600 points to go to VGF the first week of May with parents, in-laws, the whole clan.
> 
> Fast forward to April 2020, both my friend and my spouse, like so many others, have been furloughed. He is understandably anxious about the $11k+ reservation, and would rather cancel or at least reschedule for 2021. And we are so relieved for not having done business with our friends - if these were expiring points, it would have been a very difficult conversation as to what needs to happen next. I guess they would need to decide whether to do a chargeback or accept a credit voucher - I know what I would do but would rather not offer them any more advice.



Yea you should probably not offer anyone your advice anymore.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.



I still don’t agree that the breach on his part of contract number 1, would give an owner the right to breach the rest and not return the funds,

You can certainly decide to do it, but there is no justification in my book that makes It right,


----------



## meryll83

So I emailed again and asked for a refund on our rental now we’re less than a week from when we were due to check in, and here’s the response I’ve received.

Any advice on what to do next? I really want to pursue a refund, and had been planning to look at doing a credit card chargeback, as the logistics of rescheduling are difficult for us, plus I have concerns over the integrity of the business...

Interestingly they almost imply they’re not even going to ask owners for anything in this latest email - nice for the owners if that’s the case!

There is some contradiction here, as they’ve previously indicated to me they could reach out to the owner to try and reschedule with another family... but again at this point they mentioned “some sort of credit”. 

So is what they’re offering now fair and reasonable, and a chargeback claim would get rejected? Any help or advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

- - - - - - - 

“I apologize for the delayed response. 

I have extended our conversation to members of senior management and at this point the best resolution we can provide is to pursue the travel credit.

As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.

Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts.

In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.

As this credit program is still in its infancy, we do not have all of the details to disclose yet. I assure you that as soon as this information has been released I will pass this information along.

I know that this is not the answer that you were hoping to hear. Please know that we are doing everything we can to deal with all affected reservations, which now total over 2000. I welcome any further questions or concerns but will otherwise be in touch as soon as possible.“


----------



## Sandisw

meryll83 said:


> So I emailed again and asked for a refund on our rental now we’re less than a week from when we were due to check in, and here’s the response I’ve received.
> 
> Any advice on what to do next? I really want to pursue a refund, and had been planning to look at doing a credit card chargeback, as the logistics of rescheduling are difficult for us, plus I have concerns over the integrity of the business...
> 
> Interestingly they almost imply they’re not even going to ask owners for anything in this latest email - nice for the owners if that’s the case!
> 
> There is some contradiction here, as they’ve previously indicated to me they could reach out to the owner to try and reschedule with another family... but again at this point they mentioned “some sort of credit”.
> 
> So is what they’re offering now fair and reasonable, and a chargeback claim would get rejected? Any help or advice would be much appreciated, thanks!
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> “I apologize for the delayed response.
> 
> I have extended our conversation to members of senior management and at this point the best resolution we can provide is to pursue the travel credit.
> 
> As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.
> 
> Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts.
> 
> In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.
> 
> As this credit program is still in its infancy, we do not have all of the details to disclose yet. I assure you that as soon as this information has been released I will pass this information along.
> 
> I know that this is not the answer that you were hoping to hear. Please know that we are doing everything we can to deal with all affected reservations, which now total over 2000. I welcome any further questions or concerns but will otherwise be in touch as soon as possible.“



IMO, I would initiate a charge back, unless you want to be able to rebook through this company down the road.

I don’t know how easy or hard it will be now that he has come up with a plan.  But, you are correct in that they are no longer going to reach out to owners to try and reschedule.


----------



## meryll83

Sandisw said:


> IMO, I would initiate a charge back, unless you want to be able to rebook through this company down the road.
> 
> I don’t know how easy or hard it will be now that he has come up with a plan.  But, you are correct in that they are no longer going to reach out to owners to try and reschedule.


The chargeback being on the basis that I’m not getting what I paid for?
(Which was a specific accommodation rental at a specific time)


----------



## Sandisw

meryll83 said:


> The chargeback being on the basis that I’m not getting what I paid for?
> (Which was a specific accommodation rental at a specific time)



Yes, that is the argument. But you couldn’t do it until the reservation has actually been canceled and no longer available.  if you go that route, I would certainly inform them after you proceed. 

Like I said, I have heard of a successful one, but that is not to guarantee all CC will view it the same way,

Others May chime with with better advice,  I have a renter checking in in August and I am already assuming the 30% I am owed won’t be sent,


----------



## Dracula

meryll83 said:


> The chargeback being on the basis that I’m not getting what I paid for?
> (Which was a specific accommodation rental at a specific time)


Correct - you can file a dispute with the credit card company and indicate that you have not received the goods or services promised. You will likely get an immediate refund, but may need to submit additional paperwork and explanations as to what actually happened in the coming weeks. This is for you, as a renter, the best option as you recover your expense and can book anything else in the future. But, as others have mentioned, there is no guarantee of success and the credit card company may determine the services were in fact provided - in which case you should still be left with the voucher. And if a lot of renters choose this option, David's is sure to go into bankruptcy, which would render the vouchers of all renters who accepted them worthless. It would basically be a run on the bank.

In principle the voucher terms sound very good, you should be able to use it on many choices - just not quite as good as the cash. However, I am not sure how accepting a voucher may impact your ability to pursue a credit card chargeback in the future, and in case of David's bankruptcy, the voucher would be worth zero.


----------



## meryll83

Dracula said:


> Correct - you can file a dispute with the credit card company and indicate that you have not received the goods or services promised. You will likely get an immediate refund, but may need to submit additional paperwork and explanations as to what actually happened in the coming weeks. This is for you, as a renter, the best option as you recover your expense and can book anything else in the future. But, as others have mentioned, there is no guarantee of success and the credit card company may determine the services were in fact provided - in which case you should still be left with the voucher. And if a lot of renters choose this option, David's is sure to go into bankruptcy, which would render the vouchers of all renters who accepted them worthless. It would basically be a run on the bank.
> 
> In principle the voucher terms sound very good, you should be able to use it on many choices - just not quite as good as the cash. However, I am not sure how accepting a voucher may impact your ability to pursue a credit card chargeback in the future, and in case of David's bankruptcy, the voucher would be worth zero.


If the refund is more or less immediate from a chargeback, but then the claim goes in favour of David’s, the bank would then ask me to repay them?

I may yet accept the credit, as I want to give all parties the benefit of the doubt, but I am concerned about the value of the credit voucher.
I suppose if David’s went bust, I could then try and claim via my travel insurance?


----------



## yankeesfan123

I’d love to hear success stories of chargebacks... is that worth starting a new thread for? Just like to know the sort of process people had to go through.


----------



## Dracula

meryll83 said:


> If the refund is more or less immediate from a chargeback, but then the claim goes in favour of David’s, the bank would then ask me to repay them?
> 
> I may yet accept the credit, as I want to give all parties the benefit of the doubt, but I am concerned about the value of the credit voucher.
> I suppose if David’s went bust, I could then try and claim via my travel insurance?


Absolutely - if the bank decides in favour of David's, your credit card account would be charged for the amount, and you would need to repay them.

The answer to your second question is not so clear. Once you accept a voucher, I think your chance of credit card chargeback are much reduced. For travel insurance, I think most policies cover specific reservations or travel plans, and not vouchers. In addition there should be a specific coverage for "travel agent insolvency" or similar. If you purchased travel insurance, it may be best to reach out to them and get their advice too (in writing). I think you would have a much harder time to collect from a travel insurance policy than from the credit card - insurance companies just don't like to pay claims, and are ready to go to court over it, whereas credit card companies need to comply with more stringent regulations regarding consumer protection.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

yankeesfan123 said:


> I’d love to hear success stories of chargebacks... is that worth starting a new thread for? Just like to know the sort of process people had to go through.


You could always start a poll...just sayin..


----------



## Frustrated renter

Dracula said:


> Absolutely - if the bank decides in favour of David's, your credit card account would be charged for the amount, and you would need to repay them.
> 
> The answer to your second question is not so clear. Once you accept a voucher, I think your chance of credit card chargeback are much reduced. For travel insurance, I think most policies cover specific reservations or travel plans, and not vouchers. In addition there should be a specific coverage for "travel agent insolvency" or similar. If you purchased travel insurance, it may be best to reach out to them and get their advice too (in writing). I think you would have a much harder time to collect from a travel insurance policy than from the credit card - insurance companies just don't like to pay claims, and are ready to go to court over it, whereas credit card companies need to comply with more stringent regulations regarding consumer protection.



if you initiate a charge back you don’t get money back until the chargeback has been resolved in your favor. The credit card company pulls it back from David’s and holds it in escrow.

the process usually takes about 45 days to resolve, so I doubt anyone can tell the success/failure rate for some time yet.


----------



## Sandisw

Frustrated renter said:


> if you initiate a charge back you don’t get money back until the chargeback has been resolved in your favor. The credit card company pulls it back from David’s and holds it in escrow.
> 
> the process usually takes about 45 days to resolve, so I doubt anyone can tell the success/failure rate for some time yet.



 I know of someone who did in fact get the credit back to the card immediately.  So, it must not be all CC that hold it.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

meryll83 said:


> If the refund is more or less immediate from a chargeback, but then the claim goes in favour of David’s, the bank would then ask me to repay them?
> 
> I may yet accept the credit, as I want to give all parties the benefit of the doubt, but I am concerned about the value of the credit voucher.
> I suppose if David’s went bust, I could then try and claim via my travel insurance?


I initiated a chargeback claim this morning with my credit card company.  This doesn't seem like an instantaneous thing as previous posters mentioned as they said I would be receiving information in the mail.  I mentioned that I emailed David's a month ago, got a standard, "don't bother us we'll figure something out email" and mentioned the clause in the contract that says you are due a full refund if you don't receive any accommodations.  The person I talked to via the phone did not seem to think this was unreasonable, just asked for a ton of information as to what the resort was and when the check in and check out dates were.  I hope that it goes through, but could see this dragging on for months.
FWIW the guy I talked to at my Credit Card said this was for sure worth fighting, even for something as small as 500 dollars you shouldn't lose it without receiving anything.  My rental was over 4500 for the week so I really thought it was worth trying that route.  I don't want to be stuck with that much money that might never be usable with David's.  I mentioned several times that they are not offering a cash refund for the accommodations.


----------



## disneypharm

It is irritating that Disney does not just come out and say that they are closed in May (just like Universal).  The longer the people with May reservations wait, the harder it will get to do a chargeback with CC companies.

“Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.”

The choice of the words above is BS!!   I understand that some owners with banked points might not be able to reschedule or refund cash, but others might be able to do.  David is trying to keep his relationship with the owners for the future, so screwing the renter in the meantime. Owners will get their points back and keep their 70% from David’s (yes, I know some banked points will be lost but we still don’t know what DVC will do for sure).  From comments from some owners on this thread, I guess a lot of owners don’t really care what happens to renters.

By providing a voucher that might become worthless eventually, he is trying to get the CC companies not do the chargebacks right now.  If he ended up bankrupt months from now, our ability to get any money from CC companies will be close to zero!!

I am tired of reading from owners that we signed the contract that clearly says non-refundable, but the same contract states that refund (not a voucher) will be provided if the accommodation is not available.


----------



## fsjking

Dracula said:


> I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.





Dracula said:


> Correct - you can file a dispute with the credit card company and indicate that you have not received the goods or services promised. You will likely get an immediate refund, but may need to submit additional paperwork and explanations as to what actually happened in the coming weeks. This is for you, as a renter, the best option as you recover your expense and can book anything else in the future. But, as others have mentioned, there is no guarantee of success and the credit card company may determine the services were in fact provided - in which case you should still be left with the voucher. And if a lot of renters choose this option, David's is sure to go into bankruptcy, which would render the vouchers of all renters who accepted them worthless. It would basically be a run on the bank.
> 
> In principle the voucher terms sound very good, you should be able to use it on many choices - just not quite as good as the cash. However, I am not sure how accepting a voucher may impact your ability to pursue a credit card chargeback in the future, and in case of David's bankruptcy, the voucher would be worth zero.



So your justification for keeping the money is the renter can do a chargeback. Then in your second message you say chargebacks aren't guaranteed. And yet you still think you are justified canceling reservations and getting both the points and the money. lol


----------



## foodiddiedoo

disneypharm said:


> It is irritating that Disney does not just come out and say that they are closed in May (just like Universal).  The longer the people with May reservations wait, the harder it will get to do a chargeback with CC companies.
> 
> “Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.”
> 
> The choice of the words above is BS!!   I understand that some owners with banked points might not be able to reschedule or refund cash, but others might be able to do.  David is trying to keep his relationship with the owners for the future, so screwing the renter in the meantime. Owners will get their points back and keep their 70% from David’s (yes, I know some banked points will be lost but we still don’t know what DVC will do for sure).  From comments from some owners on this thread, I guess a lot of owners don’t really care what happens to renters.
> 
> By providing a voucher that might become worthless eventually, he is trying to get the CC companies not do the chargebacks right now.  If he ended up bankrupt months from now, our ability to get any money from CC companies will be close to zero!!
> 
> I am tired of reading from owners that we signed the contract that clearly says non-refundable, but the same contract states that refund (not a voucher) will be provided if the accommodation is not available.


That's exactly why I went the chargeback route.  It's not like the contract doesn't clearly state if my accomodation isn't available, then I am due a full refund.  I know they obviously cannot give me the money if they don't have it, but I really don't want to rely on them remaining in business to MAYBE see some benefit from my money that I haven't had since September of last year.


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

disneypharm said:


> By providing a voucher that might become worthless eventually, he is trying to get the CC companies not do the chargebacks right now. If he ended up bankrupt months from now, our ability to get any money from CC companies will be close to zero!!


Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of chargeback protection is for cases where a business is insolvent and can't provide the paid-for product/service. So, if David's were to go out of business, it seems to me a chargeback is almost a certainty at that point. Am I missing something there?


----------



## disneypharm

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of chargeback protection is for cases where a business is insolvent and can't provide the paid-for product/service. So, if David's were to go out of business, it seems to me a chargeback is almost a certainty at that point. Am I missing something there?


I have only done one chargeback in the past and that was within a month of purchase.  I doubt any CC company will want to deal with a product purchased 1.5-2 years before a dispute.  Hope I am wrong.


----------



## meryll83

foodiddiedoo said:


> That's exactly why I went the chargeback route.  It's not like the contract doesn't clearly state if my accomodation isn't available, then I am due a full refund.  I know they obviously cannot give me the money if they don't have it, but I really don't want to rely on them remaining in business to MAYBE see some benefit from my money that I haven't had since September of last year.



Is this the section of the contract you’re referring to? Because it’s not the owner’s fault is it...

“ Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is XXXX US Dollars“


----------



## foodiddiedoo

meryll83 said:


> Is this the section of the contract you’re referring to? Because it’s not the owner’s fault is it...
> 
> “ Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is XXXX US Dollars“


But the owner cannot provide any comparable accommodations. It's absolutely not their fault but they are unable to provide anything. Therefore David's should be issuing a refund not a credit.


----------



## Frustrated renter

Sandisw said:


> I know of someone who did in fact get the credit back to the card immediately.  So, it must not be all CC that hold it.





disneypharm said:


> I have only done one chargeback in the past and that was within a month of purchase.  I doubt any CC company will want to deal with a product purchased 1.5-2 years before a dispute.  Hope I am wrong.



If you file a chargeback you can ask the credit card company to waive the normal 120 time frame by pointing out the service date (check in date) should take precedence over the purchase date.  It’s up to the credit card company though. They don’t have to make an exception (and I have seen them deny the chargeback for airfare just because it’s past the 120 day cutoff since purchase even though the flight was cancelled a week before scheduled departure).

I hope most credit cards do choose to allow chargebacks this far from purchase.  I’m contemplating a chargeback myself, but I’m doubtful about the chance of success.  The contract is far from clear that a cash refund is due if accommodations are unavailable unless through an action of the owner.  Since Disney, not the owner, cancelled the reservation I think there’s a good chance of losing a chargeback if David’s provides sufficient support.


----------



## Dracula

foodiddiedoo said:


> I initiated a chargeback claim this morning with my credit card company.  This doesn't seem like an instantaneous thing as previous posters mentioned as they said I would be receiving information in the mail.  I mentioned that I emailed David's a month ago, got a standard, "don't bother us we'll figure something out email" and mentioned the clause in the contract that says you are due a full refund if you don't receive any accommodations.  The person I talked to via the phone did not seem to think this was unreasonable, just asked for a ton of information as to what the resort was and when the check in and check out dates were.  I hope that it goes through, but could see this dragging on for months.
> FWIW the guy I talked to at my Credit Card said this was for sure worth fighting, even for something as small as 500 dollars you shouldn't lose it without receiving anything.  My rental was over 4500 for the week so I really thought it was worth trying that route.  I don't want to be stuck with that much money that might never be usable with David's.  I mentioned several times that they are not offering a cash refund for the accommodations.


I had to do a credit card chargeback with RCL for a June cruise we cancelled in March, 95 days prior to sailing. According to their terms and conditions, the cruise was 100% refundable for cancellations beyond 90 days unless there were non-refundable deposits, but when I called Costco Travel to cancel, they claimed there is an $1800 non-refundable fee. When getting only a partial refund, I disputed the payment with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card and received $1400 the next day (this is what I claimed, because I thought the $400 deposit was non-refundable). But meanwhile, RCL sent some screenshots from their computer arguing they deserve the $1800, and Chase gave me 4 weeks to comment. I will reply back with the travel confirmations from Costco, which only show a $400 deposit and don't make any reference to $1800 being non-refundable. Still can't be 100% sure how this would play out, but it is hard to believe Chase will rule for RCL based on the paperwork. In hindsight, it would have been better to let RCL cancel the cruise, and try to recover the $400 non-refundable deposit too. Note that to incentivize travelers to accept their credit vouchers, RCL and other cruise lines are issuing 125% vouchers to travelers forgoing a cash refund.


----------



## Marionnette

foodiddiedoo said:


> But the owner cannot provide any comparable accommodations. It's absolutely not their fault but they are unable to provide anything. Therefore David's should be issuing a refund not a credit.


If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.

If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Marionnette said:


> If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.
> 
> If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.


Yeah figure I can try with CC and if it fails accept my voucher.


----------



## Yinn

Marionnette said:


> If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.



This is the part that's a huge sticking point for me. 

They're asking owners for a cash refund.  But they're offering renters a travel voucher.  My renter asked for a PARTIAL cash refund.  They're reasonable and understand I'm losing points - can't reschedule we tried.  I'm appreciative of that and am willing to return cash to them.  But David's is in the middle.

Well why don't I just refund the renter directly?  Because the numbers don't make sense.  If we agree on a 50/50 split and I return 50% of what the renter paid, that's nearly the entire amount the owner has been paid.

- Renter paid 100% @ $18/pt
- Davids takes 20% commission
- Owner gets 70% of remaining 80% = 56% of what renter paid.  This is important as David's holds 44% of the total cash the renter paid and an owner can't make a meaningful direct refund without essentially refunding the entire amount.
- Davids holds remaining 24% due to the owner.  Amount is not escrowed, nor is interest passed on to the owner.  David's collects interest
- Davids asks owners to return what owner got (56% of renter paid)
- Davids now holds 100% of what renter paid
- Owner's points expire, left "holding the bag" with 0 compensation for time, lost points, etc.
- Davids gives "voucher" to renter
- Renter picks an agreeable date.
- David's is now charging $19/pt - and that's assuming 2021 points charts didn't increase points needed.
- Renter has to make up $1/point paid to Davids
- David's pays owner $14.50/point.

So all said and done. 
- Davids made more money than the original rental.
- Owner loses points, no compensation.
- Renter loses vacation, pays $1/pt or 5.5% more for their rescheduled vacation.
- New Owner is made whole, no effect.

The original owner and original renter get to hold the bag together while David's profits.  Owners, reach into your conscious while we profit off of this.  Sorry, but this is a big shame on them.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Marionnette said:


> If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.
> 
> If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.


Is there a work around David to refund the monies directly to the owner?


----------



## disneypharm

Marionnette said:


> If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.
> 
> If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.



“Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.” 

In my post above, I brought up the point that the broker is not allowing the owners to work with renters!  I believe that this is to keep owners happy so that they will stay with him.  Yes, you might think that the statement in the contract states that the lack of availability of accommodations is not "due to an action or omission by the owner", but there is no place in the contract stating that owners cannot work with renters to refund or reschedule the reservation.  I don't blame owners wanting to keep the money for their points, but if Disney is returning their points (points that can be used later), then I think it is double-dipping and they should (ethically) try to help the renter get what they paid for.


----------



## Yinn

BWV Dreamin said:


> Is there a work around David to refund the monies directly to the owner?



I replied just before you did.  The problem with doing that is even if the owner refunds 100% of what they received.  The renter would only get 56% of what they paid.  There's no easy way to a compromise without David's willing to part with cash.


----------



## Yinn

disneypharm said:


> “Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.”
> 
> In my post above, I brought up the point that the broker is not allowing the owners to work with renters!  I believe that this is to keep owners happy so that they will stay with him.  Yes, you might think that the statement in the contract states that the lack of availability of accommodations is not "due to an action or omission by the owner", but there is no place in the contract stating that owners cannot work with renters to refund or reschedule the reservation.  I don't blame owners wanting to keep the money for their points, but if Disney is returning their points (points that can be used later), then I think it is double-dipping and they should (ethically) try to help the renter get what they paid for.



As an owner, I can tell you I am NOT happy.  The contract at this point is thrown out the window with Davids.  Doesn't matter if you're the owner or the renter.  As a renter, you're not getting money.  As an owner, you're being asked for money.  We're both on the losing end of this. 

I do agree with you on the double dipping, but unfortunately a lot of people aren't.  And even more in the upcoming months will not be double dipping and unfortunately just dealing with expiring points. 

Let's look at a longer term.  If you have to make a banking decision this month because you have a rental later on in September with an October UY.  Do you hold?  If I was the owner, I'd be inclined to cancel the reservation and bank my points so I'm not left holding the bag.  Or heck if I was bent on keeping my agreement, I'd probably want to cancel the reservation.  Bank the points.  Then borrow next year's points.  Remake the reservation, just to protect myself should this last a while..


----------



## disneypharm

Yinn said:


> I replied just before you did.  The problem with doing that is even if the owner refunds 100% of what they received.  The renter would only get 56% of what they paid.  There's no easy way to a compromise without David's willing to part with cash.


If the owner pays back the 70% (or whatever the correct math is and if they can reuse the points) back to the broker, then the broker should part with their commission too.


----------



## Yinn

disneypharm said:


> If the owner pays back the 70% (or whatever the correct math is and if they can reuse the points) back to the broker, then the broker should part with their commission too.



Should being the key. They're not, they're not parting with any cash.


----------



## fsjking

Yinn said:


> Should being the key. They're not, they're not parting with any cash.



If you refund David's and cancel the reservation, it gives the Renter a much stronger case for a chargeback though.


----------



## disneypharm

Yinn said:


> Should being the key. They're not, they're not parting with any cash.


YES!!


----------



## disneypharm

fsjking said:


> If you refund David's and cancel the reservation, it gives the Renter a much stronger case for a chargeback though.


The problem is if the chargeback is not successful, both owner and renter will be out of luck.  In that case, I know why owners are not willing to return their cash.


----------



## Yinn

disneypharm said:


> The problem is if the chargeback is not successful, both owner and renter will be out of luck.  In that case, I know why owners are not willing to return their cash.



That’s exactly right. My renter has been VERY good. And I am not looking to screw them over. I’m just not willing to give Davids cash unless I know it’ll go to the renter.

If my renter confirms they got a check or a credit to their card. Then by all means I’m on board. But I refuse to make a concession for only Davids benefit.


----------



## disneypharm

Yinn said:


> That’s exactly right. My renter has been VERY good. And I am not looking to screw them over. I’m just not willing to give Davids cash unless I know it’ll go to the renter.
> 
> If my renter confirms they got a check or a credit to their card. Then by all means I’m on board. But I refuse to make a concession for only Davids benefit.


I agree with you.  Based on what was posted earlier today, Davids is no longer asking owners for money, so where is he getting the money for all these vouchers?  This is more concerning to me, making me think that these vouchers are definitely not backed by any funding!!


----------



## fsjking

Yinn said:


> That’s exactly right. My renter has been VERY good. And I am not looking to screw them over. I’m just not willing to give Davids cash unless I know it’ll go to the renter.
> 
> If my renter confirms they got a check or a credit to their card. Then by all means I’m on board. But I refuse to make a concession for only Davids benefit.



And if they refund the renter and the owner doesn't refund, then what? You may be willing to, but this thread has shown that there are owners who are going to use this to their advantage and double dip. In those cases David's is left holding the bag. Enough of those, and everyone is screwed when they go bankrupt.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

BWV Dreamin said:


> If a owner has received any payment for points for a reservation, And that reservation can not be honored due to an act of God, that renter should be refunded the money if the points are returned to the owner. Period. Where is the integrity here? This is part of the risk when one decides to “rent” their points. I don’t know how people can live with themselves.


Based on the comments here, I surmise that some owners feel that the status of the points they rented becomes the renters "problem" once they rent those points (hence, a lot of discussions over the semantics of renting "points" versus renting a "reservation").

Let's say I have points that are going to expire and I can't use them.  I decide to enter into the rental market so I don't just lose those points.  When a renter agrees to rent from me for a reservation on their desired dates, does the contract state that their reservation is being obtained using points that are about to expire and that THOSE points are the ONLY points the renter has any claim to?

Let's say I agreed to provide a reservation using 100 points.  I book the reservation with 100 points that are about to expire.  Along comes a pandemic and the resorts are closed.  Am I on the hook to use 100 new points to book a new reservation for the renter?  In other words, did they rent a reservation worth 100 points from me, or did they rent those SPECIFIC (expiring) 100 points?

The scenario above is already a bit hazy with a direct rental.  Then it gets even more convoluted when you bring a broker into the equation.  The broker ostensibly DID pay me for those SPECIFIC (expiring) points.  They knew the status of those points when they agreed to the transaction.  They then offered the accommodations to the renter using those (soon to be expired) points.  But where in any of this does the renter know that they are paying for points that have an expiration date?  Doesn't their contract with the broker just indicate the amount they're paying for a reservation that "costs" that many points?

Under normal circumstances, I suppose the "no refunds" clause makes the expiration date moot.  If the renter cancels, the owner still gets paid for those points, so there's no impact of the points expiring.  If the owner cancels, the renter gets a refund.  But with the resort being closed, now suddenly we have to determine who is left holding the bag if those points are about to expire.

In my book, it is the broker.  They paid the owner 70% up front for points with the full knowledge that those points had a short shelf life.  They, in turn, find a renter to book a reservation using those points so that they can earn a commission on the transaction.  It seems to me that the broker assumed the risk of paying for "stale" points, speculating that they would earn a return (their commission) on brokering a rental agreement.

Muddy the water even further with the arguably shoddy contract that this particular broker employed (omitting resort closure in the list of conditions where "no refunds" applies puts them on the hook for refunds), and I just don't see how either the owners or the renters should be the ones to lose out.  The broker assumed the risk by essentially contracting to obtain "stale" points that they could "flip" for a profit.  Sorry if it sounds harsh, but the broker gambled and lost.

ETA:  One of the big issues with all of this is that the broker was gambling with other people's money.  The most likely scenario I see emerging from this is that renters are out 100% of what they paid, owners are out 30% of what their expiring points were "worth" and the broker goes bankrupt.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Based on the comments here, I surmise that some owners feel that the status of the points they rented becomes the renters "problem" once they rent those points (hence, a lot of discussions over the semantics of renting "points" versus renting a "reservation").
> 
> Let's say I have points that are going to expire and I can't use them.  I decide to enter into the rental market so I don't just lose those points.  When a renter agrees to rent from me for a reservation on their desired dates, does the contract state that their reservation is being obtained using points that are about to expire and that THOSE points are the ONLY points the renter has any claim to?
> 
> Let's say I agreed to provide a reservation using 100 points.  I book the reservation with 100 points that are about to expire.  Along comes a pandemic and the resorts are closed.  Am I on the hook to use 100 new points to book a new reservation for the renter?  In other words, did they rent a reservation worth 100 points from me, or did they rent those SPECIFIC (expiring) 100 points?
> 
> The scenario above is already a bit hazy with a direct rental.  Then it gets even more convoluted when you bring a broker into the equation.  The broker ostensibly DID pay me for those SPECIFIC (expiring) points.  They knew the status of those points when they agreed to the transaction.  They then offered the accommodations to the renter using those (soon to be expired) points.  But where in any of this does the renter know that they are paying for points that have an expiration date?  Doesn't their contract with the broker just indicate the amount they're paying for a reservation that "costs" that many points?
> 
> Under normal circumstances, I suppose the "no refunds" clause makes the expiration date moot.  If the renter cancels, the owner still gets paid for those points, so there's no impact of the points expiring.  If the owner cancels, the renter gets a refund.  But with the resort being closed, now suddenly we have to determine who is left holding the bag if those points are about to expire.
> 
> In my book, it is the broker.  They paid the owner 70% up front for points with the full knowledge that those points had a short shelf life.  They, in turn, find a renter to book a reservation using those points so that they can earn a commission on the transaction.  It seems to me that the broker assumed the risk of paying for "stale" points, speculating that they would earn a return (their commission) on brokering a rental agreement.
> 
> Muddy the water even further with the arguably shoddy contract that this particular broker employed (omitting resort closure in the list of conditions where "no refunds" applies, puts them on the hook for refunds), and I just don't see how either the owners or the renters should be the ones to lose out.  The broker assumed the risk by essentially contracting to obtain "stale" points that they could "flip" for a profit.  Sorry if it sounds harsh, but the broker gambled and lost.


Lots of scenarios and spin in your comment. The fact is, through no fault of the renter, they were not able to use a reservation they paid for. Don’t care how the reservation was made, with what points, at what point the points are returned ( if that was possible), etc. That is all on the owner. The renter is due a refund...period. The owner owes this to the renter. The owner then can go after David’s.

Much the way a refund goes at any retailer. My package did not come for which I paid in advance for. Said merchant refunds the money. Then it is on the merchant to try and obtain credit from the vendor.


----------



## DVCindy

disneypharm said:


> I agree with you.  Based on what was posted earlier today, Davids is no longer asking owners for money, so where is he getting the money for all these vouchers?  This is more concerning to me, making me think that these vouchers are definitely not backed by any funding!!



I can verify that he is still asking for the owners to return the 70%. I got another email today for my 2nd renters due to check in early May. It’s the exact same email I received a couple of weeks ago regarding my April renters - which has still not be resolved.  I have asked David’s several times to please allow me to work with the renters but they told me I would be violating the terms of my agreement, and they want me to wait until DVC cancels the reservation and then we will move to the next step.


----------



## Madame

BWV Dreamin said:


> Lots of scenarios and spin in your comment. The fact is, through no fault of the renter, they were not able to use a reservation they paid for. Don’t care how the reservation was made, with what points, at what point the points are returned ( if that was possible), etc. That is all on the owner. The renter is due a refund...period. The owner owes this to the renter. The owner then can go after David’s.
> 
> Much the way a refund goes at any retailer. My package did not come for which I paid in advance for. Said merchant refunds the money. Then it is on the merchant to try and obtain credit from the vendor.


That’s ridiculous.  The owners rented their points through David’s for protection and “peace of mind.”  Why go through a broker at all if owners are personally on the hook?!?   And why in the world would this business model even exist?


----------



## BWV Dreamin

DVCindy said:


> I can verify that he is still asking for the owners to return the 70%. I got another email today for my 2nd renters due to check in early May. It’s the exact same email I received a couple of weeks ago regarding my April renters - which has still not be resolved.  I have asked David’s several times to please allow me to work with the renters but they told me I would be violating the terms of my agreement, and they want me to wait until DVC cancels the reservation and then we will move to the next step.


Obviously Disney has to cancel the reservation first. Then, you have the renters info. You can get them their refund. Don’t need David to do that.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Madame said:


> That’s ridiculous.  The owners rented their points through David’s for protection and “peace of mind.”  Why go through a broker at all if owners are personally on the hook?!?   And why in the world would this business model even exist?


Well owners take that chance when renting through a broker, just like the renter does. Does not mitigate what should be done. You brokered a deal with your points. The renter is simply purchasing a reservation.


----------



## Marionnette

disneypharm said:


> “Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.”
> 
> In my post above, I brought up the point that the broker is not allowing the owners to work with renters!  I believe that this is to keep owners happy so that they will stay with him.  Yes, you might think that the statement in the contract states that the lack of availability of accommodations is not "due to an action or omission by the owner", but there is no place in the contract stating that owners cannot work with renters to refund or reschedule the reservation.  I don't blame owners wanting to keep the money for their points, but if Disney is returning their points (points that can be used later), then I think it is double-dipping and they should (ethically) try to help the renter get what they paid for.


I would agree that it’s “double dipping” IF the points are returned to the owner in the same condition that they were in at the time that they were rented. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case.

I got “lucky” compared to other owners. My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were due to arrive in the middle of May. I contacted her at the beginning of April and then again last week to encourage her to reschedule. I have a September use year and some of those were 2019 points which needed to be banked by 4/30., Some were borrowed from 2020 and DVC put them back into the 2020 use year. Only 2 were banked in from 2018 (I’ll be losing those on Aug 31). I was able to re-book her for November, although not in her original resort and accommodations.

I would have done the same for some who rented directly from me, but I might not have refunded the cost of the 2 points that I lost.

Now consider that instead of this being my niece, let’s pretend that this was a rental thru David’s. I would not have been able to contact the renter to see if they wanted to reschedule their trip. I would not have been able to cancel the reservation. I would have had to wait until Disney canceled it in May. At that point, I would have been past my banking deadline and those points would be toast as of August 31. The borrowed points would have gone back into the 2020 use year according to what DVC is currently doing. And the two banked points would still be lost. So, out of the “returned” points, fewer than half would actually be usable at full value for a future reservation and the remainder would be severely “distressed” and virtually un-rentable before they expire. Would it be “double-dipping” if I didn’t return what David’s had paid me up to this point if more than half of those points are useless due to David’s unwillingness to do their job as an intermediary and work with both the renter and myself to reschedule?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

BWV Dreamin said:


> Lots of scenarios and *spin *in your comment. The fact is, through no fault of the renter, they were not able to use a reservation they paid for. Don’t care how the reservation was made, with what points, at what point the points are returned ( if that was possible), etc. That is all on the owner. The renter is due a refund...period. The owner owes this to the renter. The owner then can go after David’s.
> 
> Much the way a refund goes at any retailer. My package did not come for which I paid in advance for. Said merchant refunds the money. Then it is on the merchant to try and obtain credit from the vendor.


Wow.  Absolutely ZERO "spin."  I have no vested interest since I'm not a renter, nor have I rented to someone.  I don't disagree that the renter is due a refund.  But from who?  They paid the broker for the reservation.  The broker should be the one refunding them since that's who they paid.  Why is it on the owner to provide the refund and go after David's rather than the renter going after David's?

This is the problem with the convoluted 3-way contracts being used.  The owner has fulfilled their obligation to David's.  The renter has fulfilled their obligation to David's.  David's has not fulfilled their obligation to either the owner OR the renter.

The owner did provide to the broker what they were paid for and the expiration date of those points was disclosed to the broker.  The owner, in fact, has not gotten paid all of what the broker owes them.  David's guarantees the owner that they will get paid whether or not the renter checks in.  David's guarantees the renter that they will get a refund if the reservation is cancelled (i.e., not provided)... although this is another instance where the contract is lacking because it only addresses the contingency of the reservation being cancelled by the owner, not the resort being closed.

Either way, it's the broker who made guarantees to both parties that they were/are unable to honor.  Both the owner and the renter are getting screwed by the broker in this fiasco.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Marionnette said:


> I would agree that it’s “double dipping” IF the points are returned to the owner in the same condition that they were in at the time that they were rented. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case.
> 
> I got “lucky” compared to other owners. My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were due to arrive in the middle of May. I contacted her at the beginning of April and then again last week to encourage her to reschedule. I have a September use year and some of those were 2019 points which needed to be banked by 4/30., Some were borrowed from 2020 and DVC put them back into the 2020 use year. Only 2 were banked in from 2018 (I’ll be losing those on Aug 31). I was able to re-book her for November, although not in her original resort and accommodations.
> 
> I would have done the same for some who rented directly from me, but I might not have refunded the cost of the 2 points that I lost.
> 
> Now consider that instead of this being my niece, let’s pretend that this was a rental thru David’s. I would not have been able to contact the renter to see if they wanted to reschedule their trip. I would not have been able to cancel the reservation. I would have had to wait until Disney canceled it in May. At that point, I would have been past my banking deadline and those points would be toast as of August 31. The borrowed points would have gone back into the 2020 use year according to what DVC is currently doing. And the two banked points would still be lost. So, out of the “returned” points, fewer than half would actually be usable at full value for a future reservation and the remainder would be severely “distressed” and virtually un-rentable before they expire. Would it be “double-dipping” if I didn’t return what David’s had paid me up to this point if more than half of those points are useless due to David’s unwillingness to do their job as an intermediary and work with both the renter and myself to reschedule?


Dont you have all of the renters contact info when making the reservation going through David? You have to because the owner has to make the reservation.


----------



## DVCindy

BWV Dreamin said:


> Obviously Disney has to cancel the reservation first. Then, you have the renters info. You can get them their refund. Don’t need David to do that.



The refund should be coming from David’s, not me. Obviously


----------



## yankeesfan123

David’s is trying to pass off to the renters that they’ll be offering a voucher whether or not the owner returns the money. I’m sure there will be some owners who will refuse to return the money.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

DVCindy said:


> The refund should be coming from David’s, not me. Obviously


Obviously, you don’t want to do the right thing. It can be done. Not my problem, though.


----------



## fsjking

BWV Dreamin said:


> Obviously Disney has to cancel the reservation first. Then, you have the renters info. You can get them their refund. Don’t need David to do that.



Not a good idea to do that, as then the renter can still go after a chargeback to get the rest of their payment, and David's can go after the owner for violating the terms of the contract.


----------



## Madame

And now I am being told that if DVC does not returned my points to original UY I will still have to return the 70%.  And the 30% will not be forthcoming.  Per their lawyers....   yeah. Just done.


----------



## DVCindy

BWV Dreamin said:


> Obviously, you don’t want to do the right thing. It can be done. Not my problem, though.



You have no idea what my intent is. That’s quite an assumption to make about someone whose circumstances you know nothing about.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

fsjking said:


> Not a good idea to do that, as then the renter can still go after a chargeback to get the rest of their payment, and David's can go after the owner for violating the terms of the contract.


I would think that’s where talking to the renter comes in.


----------



## Yinn

fsjking said:


> And if they refund the renter and the owner doesn't refund, then what? You may be willing to, but this thread has shown that there are owners who are going to use this to their advantage and double dip. In those cases David's is left holding the bag. Enough of those, and everyone is screwed when they go bankrupt.



They don’t have to necessarily refund the full amount. Refund what they hold (44% of paid) and wait until I refund to refund the rest. Consider it good faith



Madame said:


> And now I am being told that if DVC does not returned my points to original UY I will still have to return the 70%.  And the 30% will not be forthcoming.  Per their lawyers....   yeah. Just done.



So you got legal notice?  So it isn't - hey can you anymore.  It's a - hey you MUST.  
Quite frankly if that's the case, I'll pre-emptively cancel my future rentals and return all the money as I have no confidence in the company at that point.


----------



## Marionnette

BWV Dreamin said:


> Dont you have all of the renters contact info when making the reservation going through David? You have to because the owner has to make the reservation.


Yes. I would have both email and physical addresses as well as a phone number. But contacting the renter outside of communicating thru David’s would be a violation of the contract (not that David’s is sticking to the agreement anyway). I would never see the remaining 30% that they owe me and David’s could have reason to come after me for the 70% that they did pay me because I canceled the reservation instead of waiting for Disney to do it. I could stand to lose both my points and the money I should have been paid for them.


----------



## fsjking

BWV Dreamin said:


> I would think that’s where talking to the renter comes in.



If you were a renter who wanted their money back and were going to do a chargeback anyway, and the owner contacted you offering to give their share back directly to you, are you going to say no? Hell that's full refund plus more! There's people that will try and take advantage of this situation on both sides.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Marionnette said:


> Yes. I would have both email and physical addresses as well as a phone number. But contacting the renter outside of communicating thru David’s would be a violation of the contract (not that David’s is sticking to the agreement anyway). I would never see the remaining 30% that they owe me and David’s could have reason to come after me for the 70% that they did pay me because I canceled the reservation instead of waiting for Disney to do it. I could stand to lose both my points and the money I should have been paid for them.


Again, that is of no concern to the renter.


----------



## Marionnette

BWV Dreamin said:


> Again, that is of no concern to the renter.


But it is a concern for the owner.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

fsjking said:


> If you were a renter who wanted their money back and were going to do a chargeback anyway, and the owner contacted you offering to give their share back directly to you, are you going to say no? Hell that's full refund plus more! There's people that will try and take advantage of this situation on both sides.


Well the risk of doing business. If you as owner act in good faith, that is all that matters. If others want to take advantage of the situation well that is the risk you as a renting owner, are taking.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Marionnette said:


> But it is a concern for the owner.


And the risk you took when you brokered your points.


----------



## Yinn

Marionnette said:


> Yes. I would have both email and physical addresses as well as a phone number. But contacting the renter outside of communicating thru David’s would be a violation of the contract (not that David’s is sticking to the agreement anyway). I would never see the remaining 30% that they owe me and David’s could have reason to come after me for the 70% that they did pay me because I canceled the reservation instead of waiting for Disney to do it. I could stand to lose both my points and the money I should have been paid for them.



You'll probably lose it anyway if @Madame is correct.  It's one thing to go after someone legally for not returning the 70% if they are refunding the renter.  It's another to be going after someone for not refunding, and then themselves not refunding.  That's got to be a basis for a class action there somewhere...


----------



## Madame

Yinn said:


> You'll probably lose it anyway if @Madame is correct.  It's one thing to go after someone legally for not returning the 70% if they are refunding the renter.  It's another to be going after someone for not refunding, and then themselves not refunding.  That's got to be a basis for a class action there somewhere...


Yep.  I am done.  I feel like I am being harassed at this point.  I don’t care if I lose my points.  I am so stressed out in general that I DGAC.  I simply need to await DVC to cancel my reservation, then I will return the money.  I can’t handle this.  I don’t care if the points are usable.  

I should have rented my points out myself.  I will NEVER rent, points out through a broker again, because DESPITE what certain people have to say in this thread, there is zero reason not to expect protection when going through a broker.  Good luck everyone!


----------



## disneypharm

Marionnette said:


> I would agree that it’s “double dipping” IF the points are returned to the owner in the same condition that they were in at the time that they were rented. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case.
> 
> I got “lucky” compared to other owners. My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were due to arrive in the middle of May. I contacted her at the beginning of April and then again last week to encourage her to reschedule. I have a September use year and some of those were 2019 points which needed to be banked by 4/30., Some were borrowed from 2020 and DVC put them back into the 2020 use year. Only 2 were banked in from 2018 (I’ll be losing those on Aug 31). I was able to re-book her for November, although not in her original resort and accommodations.
> 
> I would have done the same for some who rented directly from me, but I might not have refunded the cost of the 2 points that I lost.
> 
> Now consider that instead of this being my niece, let’s pretend that this was a rental thru David’s. I would not have been able to contact the renter to see if they wanted to reschedule their trip. I would not have been able to cancel the reservation. I would have had to wait until Disney canceled it in May. At that point, I would have been past my banking deadline and those points would be toast as of August 31. The borrowed points would have gone back into the 2020 use year according to what DVC is currently doing. And the two banked points would still be lost. So, out of the “returned” points, fewer than half would actually be usable at full value for a future reservation and the remainder would be severely “distressed” and virtually un-rentable before they expire. Would it be “double-dipping” if I didn’t return what David’s had paid me up to this point if more than half of those points are useless due to David’s unwillingness to do their job as an intermediary and work with both the renter and myself to reschedule?


Yes, in my previous post I mentioned if the "points can be reused by the owner and Disney returns the points, then it is double-dipping".  This is clearly reported in some posts in this thread.  By Davids dragging their feet and trying to come up with a voucher and not allowing the owners and renters work together immediately (as soon as the resorts are closed), then points like yours have become not usable.  Not all owners are in the same situation and can easily help the renter reschedule if allowed by Davids.


----------



## McCrae

BWV Dreamin said:


> Well the risk of doing business. If you as owner act in good faith, that is all that matters. If others want to take advantage of the situation well that is the risk you as a renting owner, are taking.



It’s this type of response as an owner that makes me reconsider if I should do anything to help. My contact details are not recorded on the DVC title deeds lodged in Florida. I am based in the U.K.  I don’t want any hassle and it’s very easy for me to disappear. If you didn’t like the no refunds or changes clause don’t sign the contract.


----------



## fsjking

BWV Dreamin said:


> Well the risk of doing business. If you as owner act in good faith, that is all that matters. If others want to take advantage of the situation well that is the risk you as a renting owner, are taking.



And thats why the owner should follow their contract and either preemptively cancel, or wait for DVC to cancel, and return the 70% to Davids. That way they are no legally on the hook for anything. Returning money directly to the renter opens them up to possibly having to make a double refund if it were to go to court.


----------



## fsjking

McCrae said:


> It’s this type of response as an owner that makes me reconsider if I should do anything to help. My contact details are not recorded on the DVC title deeds lodged in Florida. I am based in the U.K.  I don’t want any hassle and it’s very easy for me to disappear. If you didn’t like the no refunds or changes clause don’t sign the contract.



You sound like the guy who said he's going to cancel 5 reservations and keep the money. A real class act.


----------



## McCrae

Madame said:


> Yep.  I am done.  I feel like I am being harassed at this point.  I don’t care if I lose my points.  I am so stressed out in general that I DGAC.  I simply need to await DVC to cancel my reservation, then I will return the money.  I can’t handle this.  I don’t care if the points are usable.
> 
> I should have rented my points out myself.  I will NEVER rent, points out through a broker again, because DESPITE what certain people have to say in this thread, there is zero reason not to expect protection when going through a broker.  Good luck everyone!


You have done nothing wrong and if you rented through David’s and followed their advice you do not have to refund anyone.


----------



## Marionnette

BWV Dreamin said:


> And the risk you took when you brokered your points.


No. The broker promised a “risk-free” transaction for the owner.

“The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort. We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival. You are committed to keeping your dues and mortgages current so as not to harm any reservations.”

IMO, the broker took on the risk when they accepted a fee to act as an intermediary for my points and the renter’s reservation using a poorly-written rental agreement.


----------



## CraigInPA

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of chargeback protection is for cases where a business is insolvent and can't provide the paid-for product/service. So, if David's were to go out of business, it seems to me a chargeback is almost a certainty at that point. Am I missing something there?



Once a company declares bankruptcy, its bank accounts are frozen until the receiver can take control. The receiver will open new accounts, and close the old ones, making a chargeback impossible. So, of you hear they have declared bankruptcy, it is too late to do a chargeback.


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> You sound like the guy who said he's going to cancel 5 reservations and keep the money. A real class act.


You have a false sense of entitlement. If an owner decides to help, it’s out of goodwill. We don’t have to do anything.  Attempts to put pressure on owners will just backfire on renters. If you want a stand off carry on, see how that works out.
Being humble and grateful for help is far more likely to be successful than your approach.


----------



## fsjking

Marionnette said:


> No. The broker promised a “risk-free” transaction for the owner.
> 
> “The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort. We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival. You are committed to keeping your dues and mortgages current so as not to harm any reservations.”
> 
> IMO, the broker took on the risk when they accepted a fee to act as an intermediary for my points and the renter’s reservation using a poorly-written rental agreement.



That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.



McCrae said:


> You have a false sense of entitlement. If an owner decides to help, it’s out of goodwill. We don’t have to do anything.  Attempts to put pressure on owners will just backfire on renters. If you want a stand off carry on, see how that works out.
> Being humble and grateful for help is far more likely to be successful than your approach.



You have a contract. You are required to follow it. If someone wants to go to the full extent to pursue legal action, I have no doubt that the owners who choose to keep the points and money would lose. 

Stating you are from the UK and no one can find you is just showing your character and that you likely intend to commit fraud in regards to the contract you signed. That says all anyone needs to know about you.


----------



## TheWheel

CraigInPA said:


> Once a company declares bankruptcy, its bank accounts are frozen until the receiver can take control. The receiver will open new accounts, and close the old ones, making a chargeback impossible. So, of you hear they have declared bankruptcy, it is too late to do a chargeback.


I don't know enough of the ins and outs but I know the following scenario is possible as I have seen it happen in another business. If David is smart and shady he could also be using this time and deferred monies to be upping his debt from David's DVC to another organization that he owns or is affiliated with. Ensuring that the highest creditor is owed $1 more than the value of the organization means a scenario where only one creditor potentially gets paid. So say David's travel agency business is legally separate and takes on all these bookings for cash vacations and is the sole secured creditor, guess who the only company / person that gets paid in bankruptcy is?


----------



## Marionnette

fsjking said:


> That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.


It’s on their website.

https://dvcrequest.com/dvc-owners/information
Scroll down to “What’s the process?”


----------



## McCrae

fsjking said:


> That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a contract. You are required to follow it. If someone wants to go to the full extent to pursue legal action, I have no doubt that the owners who choose to keep the points and money would lose.
> 
> Stating you are from the UK and no one can find you is just showing your character and that you likely intend to commit fraud in regards to the contract you signed. That says all anyone needs to know about you.



Fraud. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are in my ignore list.


----------



## lovethesun12

Marionnette said:


> I would agree that it’s “double dipping” IF the points are returned to the owner in the same condition that they were in at the time that they were rented. Unfortunately, that’s not always the case.
> 
> I got “lucky” compared to other owners. My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were due to arrive in the middle of May. I contacted her at the beginning of April and then again last week to encourage her to reschedule. I have a September use year and some of those were 2019 points which needed to be banked by 4/30., Some were borrowed from 2020 and DVC put them back into the 2020 use year. Only 2 were banked in from 2018 (I’ll be losing those on Aug 31). I was able to re-book her for November, although not in her original resort and accommodations.
> 
> I would have done the same for some who rented directly from me, but I might not have refunded the cost of the 2 points that I lost.
> 
> Now consider that instead of this being my niece, let’s pretend that this was a rental thru David’s. I would not have been able to contact the renter to see if they wanted to reschedule their trip. I would not have been able to cancel the reservation. I would have had to wait until Disney canceled it in May. At that point, I would have been past my banking deadline and those points would be toast as of August 31. The borrowed points would have gone back into the 2020 use year according to what DVC is currently doing. And the two banked points would still be lost. So, out of the “returned” points, fewer than half would actually be usable at full value for a future reservation and the remainder would be severely “distressed” and virtually un-rentable before they expire. Would it be “double-dipping” if I didn’t return what David’s had paid me up to this point if more than half of those points are useless due to David’s unwillingness to do their job as an intermediary and work with both the renter and myself to reschedule?


If you didn't return what he paid you up front and you used the points yourself or rented them, it would be double-dipping.

If you didn't return what he paid you up front and the points expired (because they were not usable - which expiring in August I'm sure they would be), it would not be double dipping, and you would likely be entitled to the remaining 30% (depending on the wording of your contract).


----------



## Grnl706

Wow...this thread got pretty sad really quickly.


----------



## New Mouse

Davids taking the hefty commission that they do is akin to the owner having insurance.   Rather than renting points out for $20 myself, I let Davids keep  $6 for ease of use and peace of mind if something were to go wrong.   If not, why use Davids?

As a business, Davids should have a cash fund and/or insurance for instances like these.   If they choose not to, thats on them.   No business should exist without a years worth of cash to get by.


----------



## fsjking

McCrae said:


> Fraud. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are in my ignore list.



Thank god. Hopefully that means I won't see any more of your posts saying how you can hide from anyone trying to get their money back for the cancelled reservation you were contractually required to deliver. That you think that David's doesn't have your info makes me think you misunderstand who the stupid people in your meme are.


----------



## Yinn

fsjking said:


> That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.



Actual contract language:

Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in
Not that it matters since Davids is not honoring their own contract and the contract itself contradicts itself in multiple places.

The only thing I’m certain of is that I’d happily “rent” my points to friends and family. I would also happily use them myself, bank them and book a bungalow. From now on, I’d also happily let renters pay Disney directly at their prices - as I’m sure you renters will gladly do as well.

Davids has done it. Pit the owners against the renters rather than face them both. Well done.


----------



## fsjking

Yinn said:


> Actual contract language:
> 
> Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in
> Not that it matters since Davids is not honoring their own contract and the contract itself contradicts itself in multiple places.
> 
> The only thing I’m certain of is that I’d happily “rent” my points to friends and family. I would also happily use them myself, bank them and book a bungalow. From now on, I’d also happily let renters pay Disney directly at their prices - as I’m sure you renters will gladly do as well.
> 
> Davids has done it. Pit the owners against the renters rather than face them both. Well done.




Yeah, David's has done themselves no favors here. On some level this was inevitable. With the nature of expiring points, someone was going to have to take a loss here. It's really not fair to make any party take the brunt of that, but as the middleman, the broker is going to take the hit. Even if they return every dollar they are holding, the owners and renters wouldn't be satisfied. The voucher system, in a vacuum, is fine. But with Renters wanting full refunds and owners expecting 100% payment, there's it won't work. 

The end result of this, like you suggested, Renters will have to pay Disney rates, and Owners will have to find some other way to sell or use their points. The rental market probably dies or takes a major hit. Renters are going to not going to be willing to agree to rent under a "no refunds if the resort closes" clause. Owners will all have to come up with their own contracts and accept the responsibility that entails.

Disney probably benefits the most, economy crashing notwithstanding. More people paying their rates and more points going unused.


----------



## DougEMG

fsjking said:


> Yeah, David's has done themselves no favors here. On some level this was inevitable. With the nature of expiring points, someone was going to have to take a loss here. It's really not fair to make any party take the brunt of that, but as the middleman, the broker is going to take the hit. Even if they return every dollar they are holding, the owners and renters wouldn't be satisfied. The voucher system, in a vacuum, is fine. But with Renters wanting full refunds and owners expecting 100% payment, there's it won't work.
> 
> The end result of this, like you suggested, Renters will have to pay Disney rates, and Owners will have to find some other way to sell or use their points. The rental market probably dies or takes a major hit. Renters are going to not going to be willing to agree to rent under a "no refunds if the resort closes" clause. Owners will all have to come up with their own contracts and accept the responsibility that entails.
> 
> Disney probably benefits the most, economy crashing notwithstanding. More people paying their rates and more points going unused.



I don't think the rental market dies.  It will have to evolve and come up with ways to deal with resort closures that are clearly spelled out in the contracts.  

While the number of renters will shrink, the number of brokers will shrink as well.  I think if anything this benefits private rentals as it is much easier for an owner to deal with with an individual renter to work out these types of issues out.

In the last 2 days I have had renters emailing me looking to do a rental and I am not even advertising points for rent right now.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

disneypharm said:


> Yes, in my previous post I mentioned if the "points can be reused by the owner and Disney returns the points, then it is double-dipping".  This is clearly reported in some posts in this thread.  By Davids dragging their feet and trying to come up with a voucher and _*not allowing the owners and renters work together*_ immediately (as soon as the resorts are closed), then points like yours have become not usable.  Not all owners are in the same situation and can easily help the renter reschedule* if allowed by Davids*.


I think most owners involved in this mess are willing to help out the renters if they can.  Sure, there are probably a few unscrupulous owners with points that aren't expiring who might take advantage of the situation, but I think they are few and far between.

It sure seems like David's is preventing renters from getting their situation resolved in some cases in order to prop up their voucher plan.  If owners give the money back to David's it _might _indirectly benefit some renter somewhere. But I can also understand why owners would not want to give funds back to David's, not because of greed, but because returning the money to David's only benefits David's.  It's not being refunded to their renters, and when the Ponzi voucher house of cards collapses, then the renters AND the owners will have lost out.


----------



## Dracula

Yinn said:


> They don’t have to necessarily refund the full amount. Refund what they hold (44% of paid) and wait until I refund to refund the rest. Consider it good faith
> 
> 
> 
> So you got legal notice?  So it isn't - hey can you anymore.  It's a - hey you MUST.
> Quite frankly if that's the case, I'll pre-emptively cancel my future rentals and return all the money as I have no confidence in the company at that point.


This is not a good idea, because according to the contract with David’s, an owner is not supposed to cancel or change the DVC reservation. The owner may then be liable for more than just the 70% - any other travel costs incurred by the buyer would become the owner’s liability, according to the contract. The story is different if Disney cancels or David’s defaults.


----------



## Mumof4mice

@CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.

Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away? 

I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec.  I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates.  However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable. 

We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.


----------



## McCrae

Mumof4mice said:


> @CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.
> 
> Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away?
> 
> I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec.  I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates.  However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable.
> 
> We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.



If you cancel you could become liable for other costs the renters have associated with the reservation.  This includes flights/car hire.


----------



## Grnl706

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I think most owners involved in this mess are willing to help out the renters if they can.  Sure, there are probably a few unscrupulous owners with points that aren't expiring who might take advantage of the situation, but I think they are few and far between.
> 
> It sure seems like David's is preventing renters from getting their situation resolved in some cases in order to prop up their voucher plan.  If owners give the money back to David's it _might _indirectly benefit some renter somewhere. But I can also understand why owners would not want to give funds back to David''s, not because of greed, but because returning the money to David's only benefits David's.  It's not being refunded to their renters, and when the Ponzi voucher house of cards collapses, then the renters AND the owners will have lost out.



I couldn't understand why David's is keeping the renters and owners from working things out. I asked to be linked up with my owner via email but their response to my overall email ignored that point. They just told me to wait until mid-May and if my resort was closed I'd be extended this Travel Voucher mess. I'll be paying extra to book through Disney when I come again. This is so frustrating. They just want to hold on to as much $$ as possible.


----------



## lovethesun12

Mumof4mice said:


> @CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.
> 
> Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away?
> 
> I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec.  I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates.  However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable.
> 
> We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.


If I were you, I would definitely contact them and ask for that option. They may give you the go ahead, and if they don't it will show you tried to mitigate damages in advance if you wanted the 30%.


----------



## lovethesun12

I don't understand why some owners/renters want to talk to the other party so badly. Why did you go through David's if you want to deal directly?

I'd rather go through the rental company and be contacted that way - that's why I used them.


----------



## Grnl706

lovethesun12 said:


> I don't understand why some owners/renters want to talk to the other party so badly. Why did you go through David's if you want to deal directly?
> 
> I'd rather go through the rental company and be contacted that way - that's why I used them.


Because this is an unprecedented situation? If you would rather do it that way, good for you. Others may not have a warm and fuzzy with how David's is handling the situation.

Edit: Additionally, for some people like myself, it is their first time renting. If it is your first time why wouldn't you go through David's? It makes perfect sense, does it not? However, we all got slapped in the face with this and are trying to navigate it.


----------



## lovethesun12

Grnl706 said:


> Because this is an unprecedented situation? If you would rather do it that way, good for you. Others may not have a warm and fuzzy with how David's is handling the situation.
> 
> Edit: Additionally, for some people like myself, it is their first time renting. If it is your first time why wouldn't you go through David's? It makes perfect sense, does it not? However, we all got slapped in the face with this and are trying to navigate it.


I didn't say I had a "warm and fuzzy" with how they are handling it. I think they are a third party (that is why people chose to go through them) and trying to come up with solutions that have to mitigate damages for all contracts not just individual ones.


----------



## piccolopat

McCrae said:


> It’s this type of response as an owner that makes me reconsider if I should do anything to help. My contact details are not recorded on the DVC title deeds lodged in Florida. I am based in the U.K.  I don’t want any hassle and it’s very easy for me to disappear. If you didn’t like the no refunds or changes clause don’t sign the contract.


You may think that it would be easy for you to disappear, but DVC has to have your contact information for notices, billing dues, etc.  They can be subpoenaed and would be forced to release that information if this were to go to court.


----------



## McCrae

piccolopat said:


> You may think that it would be easy for you to disappear, but DVC has to have your contact information for notices, billing dues, etc.  They can be subpoenaed and would be forced to release that information if this were to go to court.


The contract has been agreed to be covered by Canadian Juridiction,  I am based in the U.K.  I feel very confident that no one would spend the huge amounts of cash required for an international claim especially when it is far from clear that renters would actually win.  For a start how would papers be served? 

Personally I am trying to help the renter I am associated with  because I want to.  I don’t have to.

Some renters have a false sense of entitlement. Renters are owed nothing.


----------



## piccolopat

McCrae said:


> The contract has been agreed to be covered by Canadian Juridiction,  I am based in the U.K.  I feel very confident that no one would spend the huge amounts of cash required for an international claim especially when it is far from clear that renters would actually win.  For a start how would papers be served?
> 
> Personally I am trying to help the renter I am associated with  because I want to.  I don’t have to.
> 
> Some renters have a false sense of entitlement. Renters are owed nothing.



I'm no lawyer but I think two things factor in here.  First, Canada is a part of the commonwealth and has close ties with the U.K.  Second, you could be sued in the U.S. and if you lost, your property could be seized or a lien placed on it.  I don't think you could simply run, hide and escape any liability that a court finds against you.


----------



## McCrae

piccolopat said:


> I'm no lawyer but I think two things factor in here.  First, Canada is a part of the commonwealth and has close ties with the U.K.  Second, you could be sued in the U.S. and if you lost, your property could be seized or a lien placed on it.  I don't think you could simply run, hide and escape any liability that a court finds against you.


You are correct, clearly you ARE no lawyer.


----------



## Amymouse13

McCrae said:


> The contract has been agreed to be covered by Canadian Juridiction,  I am based in the U.K.  I feel very confident that no one would spend the huge amounts of cash required for an international claim especially when it is far from clear that renters would actually win.  For a start how would papers be served?
> 
> Personally I am trying to help the renter I am associated with  because I want to.  I don’t have to.
> 
> Some renters have a false sense of entitlement. Renters are owed nothing.


 
I resent your opinion renters are due nothing.  So we deserve to have paid for something that we cannot receive.  Under that premise owners aren't due their 30% as they cannot possibly fulfill their end of contract as check-in cannot occur.  

Everyone be darned and David's keeps the bag?  The problem is no one here thinks owners and renters should lose while David's suffers no financial impact and gets to keep 30%.


----------



## merry_nbright

So, I’ve got a reservation for June 13-20th. I plan on keeping it unless the resorts are closed and then I want to try and move it to a different date with the same points. 

I did reach out to them and they informed me that they are going to try and accommodate everyone and mentioned a rental store credit if all else fails. This whole thing is stressing me out. I never do well with uncertainty.


----------



## VeroGuy

I’m in the same boat. We have an early June check-in and we are “hoping” that the resorts open. Since my reservation is at Vero we are hopeful that maybe it will be opened separately from the Orlando resorts.


----------



## Marionnette

lovethesun12 said:


> I don't understand why some owners/renters want to talk to the other party so badly. Why did you go through David's if you want to deal directly?
> 
> I'd rather go through the rental company and be contacted that way - that's why I used them.


Going thru David’s initially is the easy route, especially for anyone who is new to the DVC rental market - owner or renter. Yes, some prefer that layer of anonymity but the vast majority do so because of the promised protections that brokers tout.

What owners and renters are learning is that, while David’s is supposed to act as an intermediary on the behalf of both parties, David’s is acting in the best interest of David’s. Bypassing the intermediary and dealing directly with each other could allow the owner and renter to come to a  mutually beneficial agreement that serves both parties better than what David’s is doing.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Marionnette said:


> Going thru David’s initially is the easy route, especially for anyone who is new to the DVC rental market - owner or renter. Yes, some prefer that layer of anonymity but the vast majority do so because of the promised protections that brokers tout.
> 
> What owners and renters are learning is that, while David’s is supposed to act as an intermediary on the behalf of both parties, _*David’s is acting in the best interest of David’s.*_ Bypassing the intermediary and dealing directly with each other could allow the owner and renter to come to a  mutually beneficial agreement that serves both parties better than what David’s is doing.


I wish all that rented from David and all the owners out there they rented through David's are able to come out the other side of this okay.  

This entire mess with Covid-19 IMO will change the rental landscape.  I personally would never be willing again to pay for a reservation in full.  One advantage I see of dealing with the owner directly over the "middleman" is that the owner can do things for you that a "middleman" can't.  The owner is the owner and from what I have read most owners are working with their renters.  Some fully refunding while losing their points.


----------



## lovethesun12

McCrae said:


> Some renters have a false sense of entitlement. Renters are owed nothing.


Renters are owed a reservation, it says so in the contract. Since they cannot receive this reservation through no fault of themselves or the owner or the third party, Everyone owes something - everyone has a responsibility to each other to mitigate damages.


----------



## Bearval

TheWheel said:


> I don't know enough of the ins and outs but I know the following scenario is possible as I have seen it happen in another business. If David is smart and shady he could also be using this time and deferred monies to be upping his debt from David's DVC to another organization that he owns or is affiliated with. Ensuring that the highest creditor is owed $1 more than the value of the organization means a scenario where only one creditor potentially gets paid. So say David's travel agency business is legally separate and takes on all these bookings for cash vacations and is the sole secured creditor, guess who the only company / person that gets paid in bankruptcy is?


David's DVC is most likely set up as an LLC which means only the company assets are at risk (none of the owners property can be seized or taken to repay debt) , since this company does not manufacture any product and most likely only consists of employees, leased office space and equipment the only real asset of any value would be David's Goodwill.  Right now his company is trying to maneuver thru this to save the goodwill since if it declares bankruptcy they will have to start from scratch and build the business back up which has taken them years to get to where they are now.


----------



## Dracula

Grnl706 said:


> I couldn't understand why David's is keeping the renters and owners from working things out. I asked to be linked up with my owner via email but their response to my overall email ignored that point. They just told me to wait until mid-May and if my resort was closed I'd be extended this Travel Voucher mess. I'll be paying extra to book through Disney when I come again. This is so frustrating. They just want to hold on to as much $$ as possible.


I can think of two reasons:
1) By matching a large pool of owners with a large pool of renters, chances of finding resort matches that optimize the resort / date selection for most renters are better;
2) David's owners are by definition more reluctant to deal with renters; if they learn how to do it, next time they may rent direct and bypass David altogether; same goes for his renters.


----------



## StitchesGr8Fan

It honestly seems like David’s has taken the stance that they are not losing any of their money in this, with the argument that they have to pay their people. Guess what, people all over the world or losing their jobs or taking pay cuts. Just because David’s deals with a luxury product doesn’t mean all of his clients can afford to lose money and he shouldn’t have to.


----------



## lovethesun12

Marionnette said:


> Going thru David’s initially is the easy route, especially for anyone who is new to the DVC rental market - owner or renter. Yes, some prefer that layer of anonymity but the vast majority do so because of the promised protections that brokers tout.
> 
> What owners and renters are learning is that, while David’s is supposed to act as an intermediary on the behalf of both parties, David’s is acting in the best interest of David’s. Bypassing the intermediary and dealing directly with each other could allow the owner and renter to come to a  mutually beneficial agreement that serves both parties better than what David’s is doing.


*could allow* is the key thing here. I don't think David's is doing what is in only *their* best interest. In your method, every single owner with distressed points and every single renter that has an owner with distressed points loses. 

In David's model, none of the renters who were paired with owners with distressed points will lose, they will obtain a credit in a similar way many other companies are doing (my airline for example). 

In David's model, all of the owners that have entered into an agreement have the opportunity to just be done with it if they give back their 70% (this is exactly the same outcome for the owner as if they worked directly with the renter). They also have the opportunity to rebook and gain the extra 30% (again, the exact same outcome as if they had worked directly through the renter). 

In this case, it is also much more likely that owners with distressed points could get refunded their 30%. 

If he comes straight out and does what demanding owners/renters want (100% refunds) the business goes under and no one wins.


----------



## CraigInPA

Mumof4mice said:


> @CraigInPA thanks for your informative posts.
> 
> Do you believe owners are within our right to refund what we've been paid, cancel the reservation and walk away?
> 
> I have 3 rentals brokered by David's in Nov/Dec.  I was resigned to honouring the reservations (losing the 30%) if David's went into bankruptcy before the check in dates.  However if cancel and refund is a legal option that would be preferable.
> 
> We don't intend to travel internationally before a vaccine is available. But I'd rather gift a staycation to my US friends (if it's safe for them to do so) than throw away my points for $10pp.



If you have a strong belief that David's will not pay the remaining 30%, refunding the deposit of 70% and walking away is called an "anticipatory breach". It may work in your favor to do that, or, depending upon the exact wording and how it is interpreted by a judge, it may not. You could be liable for nothing more, or you may be liable for consequential damages such as non-refundable airfare and reputational loss by David's. Anticipatory breaches based upon hearsay and innuendo rarely go well. However, if you have correspondence from David's which states that you will not be paid the remaining 30% per the contract, or a posting somewhere on the web from David's that they aren't paying the 30%, it's not an anticipatory breach at all. I recommend, as a first step, to contact David's in writing asking them to have David himself write a letter of personal guarantee of the final payment, stating that you have read that his company has defaulted on paying the remaining 30% of some contracts, and see what his response is. If you don't get a positive response, or a response at all, then I suggest you speak to an attorney.


----------



## Deb & Bill

StitchesGr8Fan said:


> It honestly seems like David’s has taken the stance that they are not losing any of their money in this, with the argument that they have to pay their people. Guess what, people all over the world or losing their jobs or taking pay cuts. Just because David’s deals with a luxury product doesn’t mean all of his clients can afford to lose money and he shouldn’t have to.


I think David has bills of his own to pay, like boat payments perhaps?


----------



## CraigInPA

lovethesun12 said:


> Renters are owed a reservation, it says so in the contract. Since they cannot receive this reservation through no fault of themselves or the owner or the third party, Everyone owes something - everyone has a responsibility to each other to mitigate damages.



Under US law, no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party. 

You've also greatly simplified the relationship of the parties, which is how a court would determine who takes the loss. 

The owner has a separate agreement with David's which laid out the number of points, when they expire, and how much David's is to pay and when. The payment terms are 70% of the fee at booking, and 30% on check-in day, regardless of whether the renter checks in. David's has, apparently, breached that agreement by withholding the 30% payment for rentals which occurred when the resort was closed, and is asking owners to re-book and wait on that payment until the new reservation check in date or to refund the deposit payment. While the resort closure we now face was not contemplated by the contract, the broker, who drafted the contract, knew that such a situation could and has occurred in the past. If the situation was known, and the broker chose not to include it in the agreement, he cannot then unilaterally re-write the agreement to benefit himself. David's owes the final payment on the original check-in date. Period. Full Stop. Anything else the owner and David's agrees to do is open to negotiation, not what David's says will happen.

The renter has an agreement for a room reservation with a no-refunds and no-changes clause. Strictly under the contract terms, the renter is losing everything. Under consumer protection laws which may be in effect based upon where the parties are located, which supersede the contract terms, the renter is due a full refund. David's has offered a voucher program instead of refunds. Whether that is legal under Canadian law is a question that hasn't been addressed.


----------



## Marionnette

lovethesun12 said:


> *could allow* is the key thing here. I don't think David's is doing what is in only *their* best interest. In your method, every single owner with distressed points and every single renter that has an owner with distressed points loses.
> 
> In David's model, none of the renters who were paired with owners with distressed points will lose, they will obtain a credit in a similar way many other companies are doing (my airline for example).
> 
> In David's model, all of the owners that have entered into an agreement have the opportunity to just be done with it if they give back their 70% (this is exactly the same outcome for the owner as if they worked directly with the renter). They also have the opportunity to rebook and gain the extra 30% (again, the exact same outcome as if they had worked directly through the renter).
> 
> In this case, it is also much more likely that owners with distressed points could get refunded their 30%.
> 
> If he comes straight out and does what demanding owners/renters want (100% refunds) the business goes under and no one wins.


It’s an OPTION. It doesn’t have to be the only solution. You asked WHY owners and renters would want to get in touch with each other. I told you why. SHEESH! Are you this argumentative IRL?

Let’s see...David’s way:
Owner returns whatever money David’s sent them to date. Owner walks away with points that are severely damaged due to David’s dragging their feet and not allowing owner to work directly with the renter. Renter gets a voucher that they may or may not be able to use before it expires.. David’s stays somewhat solvent but reputation with owners is tarnished.


----------



## lovethesun12

Marionnette said:


> It’s an OPTION. It doesn’t have to be the only solution. You asked WHY owners and renters would want to get in touch with each other. I told you why. SHEESH! Are you this argumentative IRL?
> 
> Let’s see...David’s way:
> Owner returns whatever money David’s sent them to date. Owner walks away with points that are severely damaged due to David’s dragging their feet and not allowing owner to work directly with the renter. Renter gets a voucher that they may or may not be able to use before it expires.. David’s stays somewhat solvent but reputation with owners is tarnished.


I'm not argumentative at all if you reread my post in a different tone possibly? I just don't really agree with you. I think they are acting as a third party.


----------



## CraigInPA

Bearval said:


> David's DVC is most likely set up as an LLC which means only the company assets are at risk (none of the owners property can be seized or taken to repay debt) , since this company does not manufacture any product and most likely only consists of employees, leased office space and equipment the only real asset of any value would be David's Goodwill.  Right now his company is trying to maneuver thru this to save the goodwill since if it declares bankruptcy they will have to start from scratch and build the business back up which has taken them years to get to where they are now.



Goodwill is also an accounting term which means that the strict value of the acquired company is less than what the purchaser has paid. It appears on the balance sheet. This is the only time that Goodwill has a stated monetary value.

If David's goes bankrupt, I doubt any buyer will want to use his company name as it is now tainted. The value of his company is his customer lists and website, and perhaps some software they may have custom developed to make this process work.


----------



## lovethesun12

CraigInPA said:


> Under US law, no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party.
> 
> You've also greatly simplified the relationship of the parties, which is how a court would determine who takes the loss.
> 
> The owner has a separate agreement with David's which laid out the number of points, when they expire, and how much David's is to pay and when. The payment terms are 70% of the fee at booking, and 30% on check-in day, regardless of whether the renter checks in. David's has, apparently, breached that agreement by withholding the 30% payment for rentals which occurred when the resort was closed, and is asking owners to re-book and wait on that payment until the new reservation check in date or to refund the deposit payment. While the resort closure we now face was not contemplated by the contract, the broker, who drafted the contract, knew that such a situation could and has occurred in the past. If the situation was known, and the broker chose not to include it in the agreement, he cannot then unilaterally re-write the agreement to benefit himself. David's owes the final payment on the original check-in date. Period. Full Stop. Anything else the owner and David's agrees to do is open to negotiation, not what David's says will happen.
> 
> The renter has an agreement for a room reservation with a no-refunds and no-changes clause. Strictly under the contract terms, the renter is losing everything. Under consumer protection laws which may be in effect based upon where the parties are located, which supersede the contract terms, the renter is due a full refund. David's has offered a voucher program instead of refunds. Whether that is legal under Canadian law is a question that hasn't been addressed.


But double dipping is illegal so that would complicate things if the owner used the points or re-rented them, which is why mitigating damages is discussed.

Also, I guess every contract is different but mine specifically says "the owner agrees to provide you with a reservation from date x to date y". I'm not sure it would work in their favor if it came to that because I have not been provided with a reservation for those dates. 

But really I do not want to go down that route, at all. I would simply like to have a new reservation.


----------



## starry_solo

CraigInPA said:


> Under US law, no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party.
> 
> You've also greatly simplified the relationship of the parties, which is how a court would determine who takes the loss.
> 
> The owner has a separate agreement with David's which laid out the number of points, when they expire, and how much David's is to pay and when. The payment terms are 70% of the fee at booking, and 30% on check-in day, regardless of whether the renter checks in. David's has, apparently, breached that agreement by withholding the 30% payment for rentals which occurred when the resort was closed, and is asking owners to re-book and wait on that payment until the new reservation check in date or to refund the deposit payment. While the resort closure we now face was not contemplated by the contract, the broker, who drafted the contract, knew that such a situation could and has occurred in the past. If the situation was known, and the broker chose not to include it in the agreement, he cannot then unilaterally re-write the agreement to benefit himself. David's owes the final payment on the original check-in date. Period. Full Stop. Anything else the owner and David's agrees to do is open to negotiation, not what David's says will happen.
> 
> The renter has an agreement for a room reservation with a no-refunds and no-changes clause. Strictly under the contract terms, the renter is losing everything. Under consumer protection laws which may be in effect based upon where the parties are located, which supersede the contract terms, the renter is due a full refund. David's has offered a voucher program instead of refunds. Whether that is legal under Canadian law is a question that hasn't been addressed.



doesn’t US law also have something called third party beneficiaries? the renter is the TPB of the contract between the owner and David’s. The owner is the TPB of the contract between the renter and David’s. That sort of thing....


----------



## CraigInPA

lovethesun12 said:


> But double dipping is illegal so that would complicate things if the owner used the points or re-rented them, which is why mitigating damages is discussed.



Please cite the law which states that "double dipping is illegal". 

You won't find one that covers this situation, not even under consumer protection law. Why is that? Because the owner's agreement with David's (a corporation) requires the owner to do specific tasks, which they did. The risk is upon David's to monetize the resulting reservation. If David's cannot monetize the reservation under the terms of the contract, David's takes the loss. While consumers are generally protected against paying something for nothing, corporations are not.

You also seem to be under the belief that the owner and renter have a contract that excludes David's and supersedes the agreements in place between them and David's. That is not the case. You need to look at all 3 contracts to understand why David's is actually responsible to both parties, but neither the owner nor renter have a responsibility to each other beyond the owner not cancelling the reservation made (which no one can argue is the case in this situation).


----------



## cmrdgrs

StitchesGr8Fan said:


> _*It honestly seems like David’s has taken the stance that they are not losing any of their money in this, with the argument that they have to pay their people. Guess what, people all over the world or losing their jobs or taking pay cuts.*_ Just because David’s deals with a luxury product doesn’t mean all of his clients can afford to lose money and he shouldn’t have to.


For this reason, some Disney boards and other sources of Disney information have cut ties with David's and will no longer recommend their services anymore.


----------



## Bearval

CraigInPA said:


> Goodwill is also an accounting term which means that the strict value of the acquired company is less than what the purchaser has paid. It appears on the balance sheet. This is the only time that Goodwill has a stated monetary value.
> 
> If David's goes bankrupt, I doubt any buyer will want to use his company name as it is now tainted. The value of his company is his customer lists and website, and perhaps some software they may have custom developed to make this process work.


Yes ,goodwill is an intangible asset that has value and example would be buying out a well know popular bakery  just so you can put your products in their boxes to sell. The point i was trying to make is a company like David's is most likely trying to mitigate damages to the brand without incurring substantial losses and most likely will fold if the losses will exceed what they feel the value of saving the brand is as opposed to starting up a new comlany.


----------



## CraigInPA

starry_solo said:


> doesn’t US law also have something called third party beneficiaries? the renter is the TPB of the contract between the owner and David’s. The owner is the TPB of the contract between the renter and David’s. That sort of thing....



TPB's have to be specified in the contracts between the parties to give the TPB any standing. Typically, to cover all the bases, contracts have a "no third party beneficiaries" clause. 

Let me give you an example, if I donate the cost of a baseball field to the local school, I would usually write a check to the school, and the school would then enter into a direct agreement with the contractor to do the work. Alternatively, I could write a contract with the contractor which specifies that the school, as a TPB, gets to choose where the baseball field goes.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> I don't understand why some owners/renters want to talk to the other party so badly. Why did you go through David's if you want to deal directly?
> 
> I'd rather go through the rental company and be contacted that way - that's why I used them.



Typically, yes,  But, in this situation, when adjustments are being done, the owners have reach out to David’s to get permission to contact so they can get the renter rebooked, which is a win win for everyone.

But, David’s wants to do the vouchers so he has decided to amend all the contracts this way,  Owners cant cancel because it’s a breach,  However, by waiting for Disney, some owners will end up with points they can no longer bank which means, no way to mitigate the loss especially when all David’s seems to want now is the money back.


----------



## TheWheel

CraigInPA said:


> Please cite the law which states that "double dipping is illegal".
> 
> You won't find one that covers this situation, not even under consumer protection law. Why is that? Because the owner's agreement with David's (a corporation) requires the owner to do specific tasks, which they did. The risk is upon David's to monetize the resulting reservation. If David's cannot monetize the reservation under the terms of the contract, David's takes the loss. While consumers are generally protected against paying something for nothing, corporations are not.
> 
> You also seem to be under the belief that the owner and renter have a contract that excludes David's and supersedes the agreements in place between them and David's. That is not the case. You need to look at all 3 contracts to understand why David's is actually responsible to both parties, but neither the owner nor renter have a responsibility to each other beyond the owner not cancelling the reservation made (which no one can argue is the case in this situation).


I'd say the argument could be made that the owner through its agent (DVC) did in fact cancel the reservation. While all would agree it was the correct thing to do, the government did not shut down hotels, the owner(s) did.


----------



## lovethesun12

CraigInPA said:


> Please cite the law which states that "double dipping is illegal".
> 
> You won't find one that covers this situation, not even under consumer protection law. Why is that? Because the owner's agreement with David's (a corporation) requires the owner to do specific tasks, which they did. The risk is upon David's to monetize the resulting reservation. If David's cannot monetize the reservation under the terms of the contract, David's takes the loss. While consumers are generally protected against paying something for nothing, corporations are not.
> 
> You also seem to be under the belief that the owner and renter have a contract that excludes David's and supersedes the agreements in place between them and David's. That is not the case. You need to look at all 3 contracts to understand why David's is actually responsible to both parties, but neither the owner nor renter have a responsibility to each other beyond the owner not cancelling the reservation made (which no one can argue is the case in this situation).


My contract says the owner is to provide me with a reservation with arrival on date x and departure on date y. Explain to me how you think the owner has done the task of providing me with that if I am unable to check in on arrival date, have no reservation for the length of stay, and have no reservation on the departure date.

Again I am absolutely not saying this is the owners, David's (I am actually not with David's, if I was I would be happy right now because I know I at least may have a chance at a new reservation without having to jump through hoops), or my fault. I am not blaming anyone. I think everyone is entitled to something and unfortunately may lose something. But back to my point - making the assumption that you're an owner and can walk away may not be the correct assumption.


----------



## Dentam

Question: how can David's amend existing contracts that both parties have already signed?


----------



## CarolMN

Please state your opinions respectfully.  It is not necessary to call out other posters for their opinions.  From the DIS POSTING GUIDELINES:

*We do not believe in censorship, and open discussions about various issues is encouraged. When participating in a thread, we ask that everyone be treated with respect and that our guidelines be followed. If we find that an individual is disruptive and is unable to follow our rules, he/she will be barred from participating on our site.*


----------



## cmrdgrs

Grnl706 said:


> Because this is an unprecedented situation? If you would rather do it that way, good for you. Others may not have a warm and fuzzy with how David's is handling the situation.
> 
> Edit: Additionally, for some people like myself, it is their first time renting. If it is your first time why wouldn't you go through David's? It makes perfect sense, does it not? However, we all got slapped in the face with this and are trying to navigate it.


I have a friend that rented through David's, but her reservation is in December.  Here was her thinking on contacting the owner directly:

Her thought on looking up the owner using public records (and they have a very unique name) is that if David's folds she plans to offer the owners the additional 30% that the broker was not able to pay out.  Yes, she paid the broker in full, but she figures paying the owner directly the 30% they didn't get paid from the broker is less money than a new rental or a hotel room.

The broker's goal is keep owners and renters separate to protect their base of DVC owners.  The last thing a broker wants is for renters to find a decent/reliable owner and bypass their services.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dentam said:


> Question: how can David's amend existing contracts that both parties have already signed?


The broker can't amend what has been signed.

But, let's face it -- no one is taking a Canadian company to court.  I haven't seen their contract, but I'd assume that it says any lawsuit has to be settled in Canada.  At least if you are dealing with a Broker in the US you could potentially go to small claims court for some amount of money.  You still would have to travel to that state, but US laws would apply.  International lawsuits have to go through Federal courts I believe.  Not happening IMO.


----------



## Grnl706

cmrdgrs said:


> I have a friend that rented through David's, but her reservation is in December.  Here was her thinking on contacting the owner directly:
> 
> Her thought on looking up the owner using public records (and they have a very unique name) is that if David's folds she plans to offer the owners the additional 30% that the broker was not able to pay out.  Yes, she paid the broker in full, but she figures paying the owner directly the 30% they didn't get paid from the broker is less money than a new rental or a hotel room.
> 
> The broker's goal is keep owners and renters separate to protect their base of DVC owners.  The last thing a broker wants is for renters to find a decent/reliable owner and bypass their services.


I have the same thinking as your friend and you make a very valid point. David's needs us separate for their survival. I wanted to try to help mitigate my owners losses too which I can't do without contacting them. It doesn't seem like David's is doing much for the owners.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> The broker can't amend what has been signed.
> 
> But, let's face it -- no one is taking a Canadian company to court.  I haven't seen their contract, but I'd assume that it says any lawsuit has to be settled in Canada.  At least if you are dealing with a Broker in the US you could potentially go to small claims court for some amount of money.  You still would have to travel to that state, but US laws would apply.  International lawsuits have to go through Federal courts I believe.  Not happening IMO.



True, but an owner who decides to not return the 70% and reschedules the renter on their own, and then lets David’s know what they are doing, would need to be gone after by David’s, if he wants to claim breach.

Im not confident that David will go to that extreme against owners, especially since his business would not survive that, once word got out,

It is just sad that he is holding owners to the terms of the contract that he decided are important....wait for Disney to cancel...but doesn’t care that if it is canceled sooner, the owner could get back usable points to use for that or any renter,

My August rental through him will be the only time as an owner I will use him.  That is for sure.


----------



## DisneyBB

I have two rentals coming up just at the end of my use year.  Does anyone know if the contract forbids us talking to the renter?  I can't see anything in the agreement to say so.  Surely if it doesn't say anything we can just contact them and have a conversation.  I feel stuck between a rock and hard place at the moment.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> True, but an owner who decides to not return the 70% and reschedules the renter on their own, and then lets David’s know what they are doing, would need to be gone after by David’s, if he wants to claim breach.
> 
> Im not confident that David will go to that extreme against owners, especially since his business would not survive that, once word got out,
> 
> It is just sad that he is holding owners to the terms of the contract that he decided are important....wait for Disney to cancel...but doesn’t care that if it is canceled sooner, the owner could get back usable points to use for that or any renter,
> 
> My August rental through him will be the only time as an owner I will use him.  That is for sure.


And visa-versa.  A Canandian broker is not going to take who-knows-how-many individual owners to court.  Just isn't going to happen. 

I'm not in this position, but if I was an owner who rented through a broker, I would try to find my renter directly.  It's already slim pickings out there for availability.  The longer this goes on, and depending on my UY, the less chance I can fulfill my rental agreement waiting on the broker.


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyBB said:


> I have two rentals coming up just at the end of my use year.  Does anyone know if the contract forbids us talking to the renter?  I can't see anything in the agreement to say so.  Surely if it doesn't say anything we can just contact them and have a conversation.  I feel stuck between a rock and hard place at the moment.



There is nothing that prohibits that action,  But, the contract does prohibit an owners changing or canceling on their own,

There in lies the problem as many owners who want to help renters now, are being stopped by David’s, so that when Disney cancels and not the owner, the renter can’t claim a refund, and the owner then has to return the money or offer points again,

If an owner has expiring points, then their only option is return the money, or chance Davids going after them,


----------



## cmrdgrs

DisneyBB said:


> I have two rentals coming up just at the end of my use year.  Does anyone know if the contract forbids us talking to the renter?  I can't see anything in the agreement to say so.  Surely if it doesn't say anything we can just contact them and have a conversation.  I feel stuck between a rock and hard place at the moment.


If I were you, I wouldn't worry about the contract.  Do what you feel right doing.  All bets are off IMO in relationship to the broker agreement.  IMO, a broker in a different country is not going to bring you to court.  But, that's just my opinion, you have to follow your heart.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> I_<snip...> if an owner has expiring points, then their only option is return the money, or chance Davids going after them <...snip>_


Personally, I'd take the odds of the broker coming after me.


----------



## TheWheel

Bearval said:


> David's DVC is most likely set up as an LLC which means only the company assets are at risk (none of the owners property can be seized or taken to repay debt) , since this company does not manufacture any product and most likely only consists of employees, leased office space and equipment the only real asset of any value would be David's Goodwill.  Right now his company is trying to maneuver thru this to save the goodwill since if it declares bankruptcy they will have to start from scratch and build the business back up which has taken them years to get to where they are now.


Although if they are stating 2000+ rentals have already been affected and this goes on for another 2 months we could be looking at 5000+ rentals. If they were for an average of $3000 each we are looking at $15,000,000. If 40% of that has already been payed to owners we are talking $9 Million still in their possession. If 50% of that can be rebooked through cash bookings for a new (or existing but different) company, they get their commission on that and then could claim additional monies owed to a different LLC by ramping up their debt from another company. The above is all fictional and could be on the very high end, I'm just trying to illustrate the amount of money that could be in play here.


----------



## lawboy2001

CraigInPA said:


> Please cite the law which states that "double dipping is illegal".
> 
> You won't find one that covers this situation, not even under consumer protection law. Why is that? Because the owner's agreement with David's (a corporation) requires the owner to do specific tasks, which they did. The risk is upon David's to monetize the resulting reservation. If David's cannot monetize the reservation under the terms of the contract, David's takes the loss. While consumers are generally protected against paying something for nothing, corporations are not.
> 
> You also seem to be under the belief that the owner and renter have a contract that excludes David's and supersedes the agreements in place between them and David's. That is not the case. You need to look at all 3 contracts to understand why David's is actually responsible to both parties, but neither the owner nor renter have a responsibility to each other beyond the owner not cancelling the reservation made (which no one can argue is the case in this situation).



You've convinced me!  The owner fulfilled their obligations, the issues with the renters not being able to obtain what they paid for is for resolution between David's and the renter.


----------



## cmrdgrs

TheWheel said:


> Although if they are stating 2000+ rentals have already been affected and this goes on for another 2 months we could be looking at 5000+ rentals. If they were for an average of $3000 each we are looking at $15,000,000. If 40% of that has already been payed to owners we are talking $9 Million still in their possession. If 50% of that can be rebooked through cash bookings for a new (or existing but different) company, they get their commission on that and then could claim additional monies owed to a different LLC by ramping up their debt from another company. The above is all fictional and could be on the very high end, I'm just trying to illustrate the amount of money that could be in play here.


This doesn't take into account reservations that are not affected and still paid in full for other months.  This broker has literally millions of dollars at their disposal.  This unwillingness to "take a loss" is just ridiculous.  Obviously no one wants to lose money, but anyone and everyone in the travel industry is losing money.


----------



## lovethesun12

DisneyBB said:


> I have two rentals coming up just at the end of my use year.  Does anyone know if the contract forbids us talking to the renter?  I can't see anything in the agreement to say so.  Surely if it doesn't say anything we can just contact them and have a conversation.  I feel stuck between a rock and hard place at the moment.


Personally if I were you I would start by contacting the rental company first, explain the situation, ask what would happen if I cancelled and what would happen (i.e, would you receive your 30%) if I didn't and Disney ends up being closed. 

If they didn't respond in a few days (or gave an answer that didn't make sense based on your use year) then I would make a decision on contacting the renter.


----------



## CraigInPA

lovethesun12 said:


> My contract says the owner is to provide me with a reservation with arrival on date x and departure on date y. Explain to me how you think the owner has done the task of providing me with that if I am unable to check in on arrival date, have no reservation for the length of stay, and have no reservation on the departure date.
> 
> Again I am absolutely not saying this is the owners, David's (I am actually not with David's, if I was I would be happy right now because I know I at least may have a chance at a new reservation without having to jump through hoops), or my fault. I am not blaming anyone. I think everyone is entitled to something and unfortunately may lose something. But back to my point - making the assumption that you're an owner and can walk away may not be the correct assumption.



This thread is about David's, not whatever broker you are using. David's uses 3 contracts:

David's-Owner: This is clear that David's has no wiggle room on the remaining payment.

David's-Renter: This is clear that they intend to rent a non-refundable, non-changeable reservation.

David's-Owner-Renter: This is clear that the Owner is paid if they do not cancel the reservation. This is clear that the Renter is renting a reservation that is non-refundable and non-changeable.

The issue with the David's-Renter and David's-Owner-Renter contracts is that they could breach some consumer protection laws in the event of a resort closure. i.e., the Renter gets no reservation and no refund. David's has introduced a voucher system to reimburse the Renter's loss in order to address that shortcoming.


----------



## DisneyBB

lovethesun12 said:


> Personally if I were you I would start by contacting the rental company first, explain the situation, ask what would happen if I cancelled and what would happen (i.e, would you receive your 30%) if I didn't and Disney ends up being closed.
> 
> If they didn't respond in a few days (or gave an answer that didn't make sense based on your use year) then I would make a decision on contacting the renter.



Thanks, yes that is what I am currently doing trying to ensure that I have it in writing what is going to happen.  Just wondered if I had missed anything in the contract that stopped me having a conversation.  Much rather refund but only if the renter gets the refund.  I have used Davids for years don't want him to go under, but it is important that the owner and renter have a chance to sort it out. I know I will lose something but better that than it all.   I have asked them to check with the renters and see what they want to do.  Would love a copy of that email, but I have started the process early enough to ensure that something gets done.  I am persistent and won't give up once I get started on something, determined to find a solution.


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> I have a friend that rented through David's, but her reservation is in December.  Here was her thinking on contacting the owner directly:
> 
> Her thought on looking up the owner using public records (and they have a very unique name) is that if David's folds she plans to offer the owners the additional 30% that the broker was not able to pay out.  Yes, she paid the broker in full, but she figures paying the owner directly the 30% they didn't get paid from the broker is less money than a new rental or a hotel room.
> 
> The broker's goal is keep owners and renters separate to protect their base of DVC owners.  The last thing a broker wants is for renters to find a decent/reliable owner and bypass their services.


As an owner with multiple active reservations with David's stretching through October, I would love being contacted by the renter and work out such a plan - but only if David is bankrupt, or in default of a previous contract. The additional 30% due the owner is actually only an additional 23% payable by the renter, since David takes a $4.50 per point. An even fairer system is for the renter to only pay ~11.5% extra (or ~$2.20 per point) - this would in effect share the loss caused by David's bankruptcy between the owner and renter.


----------



## karpy111

I follow these thread pretty closely.  Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.

I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.  

First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.

Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.

Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> This doesn't take into account reservations that are not affected and still paid in full for other months.  This broker has literally millions of dollars at their disposal.  This unwillingness to "take a loss" is just ridiculous.  Obviously no one wants to lose money, but anyone and everyone in the travel industry is losing money.


I would not expect David to have millions of dollars at his disposal. His $4.50 cut has most likely already been spent on business expenses (including wages to his staff) and dividends to the owners. The only cash he has is the 30% due to the owners, but this is offset by the liability of making these payments once check-ins resume at the DVC resorts. Depending on how long the resort closure continues and the success rate of credit card chargebacks, it may be in David's best interest to declare bankruptcy and move on - there is no alternative once the chargeback amount exceeds the 30% held in reserve, he would just be out of cash.

I don't know how each travel insurance policy works, but on my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, which I am using to charge travel expenses, there is an explicit coverage for travel interruption due to airline or travel agent insolvency. With such a clause, there should be much easier for renters to pursue a successful recovery of their expense. Hence I am beginning to wonder whether a sooner rather than later David's bankruptcy would not be best for everyone involved.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Sorry... it had to be said.


----------



## Dracula

karpy111 said:


> I follow these thread pretty closely.  Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.
> 
> I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.
> 
> First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.
> 
> Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.
> 
> Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.


This is great to know - thank you so much for sharing!


----------



## Grnl706

karpy111 said:


> I follow these thread pretty closely.  Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.
> 
> I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.
> 
> First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.
> 
> Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.
> 
> Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.


This is wonderful information, thank you for sharing! 

I used my Chase Sapphire card so I'll definitely be keeping this in mind if my reservation gets cancelled. 

I feel like it may be better to just do the charge back instead of accepting the voucher? I don't know.


----------



## karpy111

Grnl706 said:


> This is wonderful information, thank you for sharing!
> 
> I used my Chase Sapphire card so I'll definitely be keeping this in mind if my reservation gets cancelled.
> 
> I feel like it may be better to just do the charge back instead of accepting the voucher? I don't know.


Thats how i feel.  Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that if Davids offers you the voucher maybe the credit card company wouldnt help you with a charge back.  However, the lady specifically said that if its not your original trip that you booked you have the right do file a dispute.  So once my date comes I think that is what i will do and they just booked with Disney.


----------



## Disneykate605

We ended up with points we could not use after a resale purchase, so we decided to rent them. I decided to rent thru David's because I liked the "no refunds". I was nervous that if I rented them out myself and someone who didn't understand the rules on DVC points asked to reschedule or cancel a reservation (which I would have no problem doing if it was possible) and I couldn't help them because of point expiration or availability issues I would feel so bad. I would have a hard time not helping someone but I would also not want to be screwed either. I felt using David's shielded me from that! I thought I would be able to just imagine the wonderful vacation I helped the happy renter have and not worry about it because if a problem had come up for the renter I never would have known about it.
Then this happened! What a crazy situation!  

One of our rentals is caught up in this whole mess (it was for March 15th - 17th, I did reschedule them even though I didn't have to since the resort was open but since DVC helped me out by putting my points back into the 2020 UY - I was able to help them out). Thankfully the other one was completed in January. I hope the resort is open for the new dates because I would like to be done with this process! I definitely learned that if I ever find us in the position with points we can't use again and we decide to rent them I will do it myself. I learned that just because I don't have to worry about something doesn't mean I won't. I obviously still felt responsible for the renter being happy. It would have been much easier for me to have been in direct contact with the renter in this circumstance. I don't like the way David's is handling the situation and I worry that if they can't go during the rescheduled time David's is going to request I re-rent to someone else and my original renter will end up with a travel voucher and that would make me sad. 
I find this whole thing stressful...and I am not out any money. 
Good luck everyone and stay safe!


----------



## Grnl706

karpy111 said:


> Thats how i feel.  Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that if Davids offers you the voucher maybe the credit card company wouldnt help you with a charge back.  However, the lady specifically said that if its not your original trip that you booked you have the right do file a dispute.  So once my date comes I think that is what i will do and they just booked with Disney.


Yeah, my husband and I just decided we'll go for the dispute and just get our money back. When we go next year, we'll just pay extra to book with Disney. The peace of mind to be able to cancel is worth way more than any savings we got renting. I got travel insurance too when I booked last year, in line with all the advice I saw, and that doesn't even help. 

David's told me via email yesterday that if Disney is closed for my June trip to expect expect to be notified mid-May. I'm not sure when your trip is but that's the tiny bit of a timeline I was able to get from them.


----------



## Minniemoo15

Disneykate605 said:


> We ended up with points we could not use after a resale purchase, so we decided to rent them. I decided to rent thru David's because I liked the "no refunds". I was nervous that if I rented them out myself and someone who didn't understand the rules on DVC points asked to reschedule or cancel a reservation (which I would have no problem doing if it was possible) and I couldn't help them because of point expiration or availability issues I would feel so bad. I would have a hard time not helping someone but I would also not want to be screwed either. I felt using David's shielded me from that! I thought I would be able to just imagine the wonderful vacation I helped the happy renter have and not worry about it because if a problem had come up for the renter I never would have known about it.
> Then this happened! What a crazy situation!
> 
> One of our rentals is caught up in this whole mess (it was for March 15th - 17th, I did reschedule them even though I didn't have to since the resort was open but since DVC helped me out by putting my points back into the 2020 UY - I was able to help them out). Thankfully the other one was completed in January. I hope the resort is open for the new dates because I would like to be done with this process! I definitely learned that if I ever find us in the position with points we can't use again and we decide to rent them I will do it myself. I learned that just because I don't have to worry about something doesn't mean I won't. I obviously still felt responsible for the renter being happy. It would have been much easier for me to have been in direct contact with the renter in this circumstance. I don't like the way David's is handling the situation and I worry that if they can't go during the rescheduled time David's is going to request I re-rent to someone else and my original renter will end up with a travel voucher and that would make me sad.
> I find this whole thing stressful...and I am not out any money.
> Good luck everyone and stay safe!


We bought a DVC resale contract last year that came with extra points that we rented out. I rented about 25% of them through David's, and the other 75% I rented on my own. I was really nervous renting on my own for the reasons you stated above. Renting on my own ended up being a great experience though. I had a good contract drawn up and when one of my renters wanted to change their dates I was able to do so and felt good about helping them (even though they acknowledged I was under no obligation to do so). I was able to check in with each of my renters before their trips to make sure everything was in order (ME, dining plan, room requests) and afterwards as well  to ensure they had a good experience.  I made more money doing it that way and it was nice to have contact with the renters myself. I liked knowing who was using our points.


----------



## TheWheel

Dracula said:


> I would not expect David to have millions of dollars at his disposal. His $4.50 cut has most likely already been spent on business expenses (including wages to his staff) and dividends to the owners. The only cash he has is the 30% due to the owners, but this is offset by the liability of making these payments once check-ins resume at the DVC resorts. Depending on how long the resort closure continues and the success rate of credit card chargebacks, it may be in David's best interest to declare bankruptcy and move on - there is no alternative once the chargeback amount exceeds the 30% held in reserve, he would just be out of cash.
> 
> I don't know how each travel insurance policy works, but on my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, which I am using to charge travel expenses, there is an explicit coverage for travel interruption due to airline or travel agent insolvency. With such a clause, there should be much easier for renters to pursue a successful recovery of their expense. Hence I am beginning to wonder whether a sooner rather than later David's bankruptcy would not be best for everyone involved.


If we based on 5000 rentals @ an average of $3000 per rental @ $19 a point Davids would have $3.5 million in commissions. I don't think his staffing and other business costs come anywhere near that, especially when we are talking only 1/4 of the year at that point.


----------



## Yinn

Dracula said:


> As an owner with multiple active reservations with David's stretching through October, I would love being contacted by the renter and work out such a plan - but only if David is bankrupt, or in default of a previous contract. The additional 30% due the owner is actually only an additional 23% payable by the renter, since David takes a $4.50 per point. An even fairer system is for the renter to only pay ~11.5% extra (or ~$2.20 per point) - this would in effect share the loss caused by David's bankruptcy between the owner and renter.



That's an interesting view that I didn't even consider.  Taking the voucher, the renter would already be paying an additional 5.5% more at the new rate.  So the compromise would eliminate the risk of a voucher for the cost of $1.1/pt.  Insurance if you will.  I wonder as a renter, how many would be a proponent of that.


----------



## Dracula

Yinn said:


> That's an interesting view that I didn't even consider.  Taking the voucher, the renter would already be paying an additional 5.5% more at the new rate.  So the compromise would eliminate the risk of a voucher for the cost of $1.1/pt.  Insurance if you will.  I wonder as a renter, how many would be a proponent of that.


Keep in mind that vouchers are only issued for reservations canceled by Disney. This $2.20 extra per point, if David is bankrupt, would work well on reservations that can be fulfilled, either as planned or rescheduled, but it would not work on expiring points.


----------



## merry_nbright

My biggest fear is availability if we have to cancel a week in June. It seems like rooms are going so fast, part of me is panicking over that now.


----------



## Yinn

merry_nbright said:


> My biggest fear is availability if we have to cancel a week in June. It seems like rooms are going so fast, part of me is panicking over that now.



I think appearances may be worse than reality.  I've been able to reschedule into several trips in August, November, and Feb.  The thing is, it's changing regularly.  One day it'll be nothing is available, the next it's a ton of stuff.  There's a whole lot of us changing things every day.


----------



## merry_nbright

Yinn said:


> I think appearances may be worse than reality.  I've been able to reschedule into several trips in August, November, and Feb.  The thing is, it's changing regularly.  One day it'll be nothing is available, the next it's a ton of stuff.  There's a whole lot of us changing things every day.



Ah, thank you! I’m having mental panic attacks over this all day. As if the stress from work and this mess isn’t bad enough.


----------



## Galun

TheWheel said:


> Although if they are stating 2000+ rentals have already been affected and this goes on for another 2 months we could be looking at 5000+ rentals. If they were for an average of $3000 each we are looking at $15,000,000. If 40% of that has already been payed to owners we are talking $9 Million still in their possession. If 50% of that can be rebooked through cash bookings for a new (or existing but different) company, they get their commission on that and then could claim additional monies owed to a different LLC by ramping up their debt from another company. The above is all fictional and could be on the very high end, I'm just trying to illustrate the amount of money that could be in play here.



Let’s see.  2,000 rentals affected in 2 months.  So that implies 12,000 rentals a year.  Let’s say it’s 10,000 reservations.  Let’s say the average cost of a rental is $2,000 - most people go to Disney at least for like 5 days?

That implies $20,000,000 in revenue.  He keeps $4,500,000 at 22.5% commission ($4.5 pp / $20pp).  As a broker most of the business cost is employees, maybe some marketing.  I read somewhere he had around 40 employees?  So his employees make $100,000 a year?

My conclusion is that 1). I have no idea his cut is this deep; 2). He is not giving me the protection that I think I am getting; 3). There are hundreds of thousands of people who wants DVC reservations.

Screw that.  I will no longer rent out my points through him going forward.


----------



## Galun

karpy111 said:


> Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.



You probably will not.  A chargeback ruled in your favor means money from the merchant to you.  If the merchant is bankrupt when you file the chargeback, there is no money to go back to you even if the chargeback is ruled in your favor.

In my opinion, you should file the chargeback immediately when the reservation is canceled through no fault of your own, and the travel voucher was not an acceptable option.  If the chargeback is ruled in your favor, you make a new reservation with cash through Disney that can be canceled without penalty.  If the chargeback is later reversed, you‘d still have the voucher so you cancel the cash disney reservation and rebook with the voucher.


----------



## Dracula

Galun said:


> Let’s see.  2,000 rentals affected in 2 months.  So that implies 12,000 rentals a year.  Let’s say it’s 10,000 reservations.  Let’s say the average cost of a rental is $2,000 - most people go to Disney at least for like 5 days?
> 
> That implies $20,000,000 in revenue.  He keeps $4,500,000 at 22.5% commission ($4.5 pp / $20pp).  As a broker most of the business cost is employees, maybe some marketing.  I read somewhere he had around 40 employees?  So his employees make $100,000 a year?
> 
> My conclusion is that 1). I have no idea his cut is this deep; 2). He is not giving me the protection that I think I am getting; 3). There are hundreds of thousands of people who wants DVC reservations.
> 
> Screw that.  I will no longer rent out my points through him going forward.


There are other costs: 3% credit card fees ($600k per year). Rent for his office space. Computer equipment and software. Then, employee costs are more than just wages - Ontario levies additional taxes on the employer. Legal fees for the attorneys he is consulting right now.
But your conclusion is very valid - it is more beneficial for renters and owners to meet in the market without a broker.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


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## stlrod

Everybody does realize don't they that there are a lot of calculations being done on a 2000+ number provided by David?  Seems like another flawed model.


----------



## Galun

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> This is only half true.  The truth is MUCH more complicated.  The end result is, that no matter if the original merchant goes bankrupt, the card holder still gets their money back.



Thanks for the detailed post.  That's very good.

So, if the customer's issuing bank is on the hook for the chargeback of a bankrupt merchant, can't the issuer just deny the chargeback?  It would be one thing if there is a merchant to go after the funds.  But if the merchant is bankrupt and the issuing bank is responsible, perhaps they will now point to the no refunds clause.  It's not like the individual customer will have the resources to fight the denial of the chargeback against their issuing bank.

I had personal experience buying wine futures from a merchant that went bankrupt.  Turned out the merchant was building a Ponzi scheme, using money from the wine futures to buy wine on the market to deliver.  I initiated a chargeback with Amex and they paid for it, but that wasn't the norm. Most people tried the chargeback route and got denied.  Even some people who had Amex got their claim denied.  I imagine it's a combination of size of the chargeback and relationship / money making potential from my spend with amex.  But in this example, your explanation does make sense - Amex gave me the credit for the chargeback, and I imagine they took the loss.


----------



## fsjking

Galun said:


> Thanks for the detailed post.  That's very good.
> 
> So, if the customer's issuing bank is on the hook for the chargeback of a bankrupt merchant, can't the issuer just deny the chargeback?  It would be one thing if there is a merchant to go after the funds.  But if the merchant is bankrupt and the issuing bank is responsible, perhaps they will now point to the no refunds clause.  It's not like the individual customer will have the resources to fight the denial of the chargeback against their issuing bank.
> 
> I had personal experience buying wine futures from a merchant that went bankrupt.  Turned out the merchant was building a Ponzi scheme, using money from the wine futures to buy wine on the market to deliver.  I initiated a chargeback with Amex and they paid for it, but that wasn't the norm. Most people tried the chargeback route and got denied.  Even some people who had Amex got their claim denied.  I imagine it's a combination of size of the chargeback and relationship / money making potential from my spend with amex.  But in this example, your explanation does make sense - Amex gave me the credit for the chargeback, and I imagine they took the loss.



I suspect the bank eats a lot of them with customers they want to keep. Our company does about 100k a year with Stripe. We are fairly sure that we've had people initiate chargebacks, but not a single one has been even forwarded to us for dispute let alone taking the money out of our account. Last year we added square terminals for in person sales and had 3 chargebacks. All 3 ended up being resolved in our favor, but they did take the money out originally then return it. But I'm guessing it's a difference between a processor we've dealt with for a number of years, and one we were a new customer with. I'd say it's a similar process on the customer side. One's they want to keep, they eat. One's they don't, they refuse. Now that doesn't account for what the PP was talking about regarding the laws of chargebacks. I'm sure that weighs in on the decision heavily.


----------



## Mumof4mice

CraigInPA said:


> Anticipatory breaches based upon hearsay and innuendo rarely go well. However, if you have correspondence from David's which states that you will not be paid the remaining 30% per the contract, or a posting somewhere on the web from David's that they aren't paying the 30%, it's not an anticipatory breach at all. I recommend, as a first step, to contact David's in writing asking them to have David himself write a letter of personal guarantee of the final payment, stating that you have read that his company has defaulted on paying the remaining 30% of some contracts, and see what his response is. If you don't get a positive response, or a response at all, then I suggest you speak to an attorney.



That's what I thought.  Hearsay and my concern about their solvency are insufficient grounds to justify an anticipatory breach.

Thank you for your explanation and practical suggestions @CraigInPA . I will email David's and ask for a personal guarantee that they will pay the balance even if resorts are closed.  Hopefully we could come to an amicable agreement as the amount at stake isn't worth the legal costs or hassle of taking it further.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> *<snip...>  I would not expect David to have millions of dollars at his disposal. <...snip>*


Obviously, this is all speculation on what he has or doesn't have in the bank.  This broker has been making a LOT of money for heck of a L-O-N-G time.  If he didn't frivolously spend his profits, I do think having millions is possible.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


----------



## VeroGuy

CraigInPA said:


> You also seem to be under the belief that the owner and renter have a contract that excludes David's and supersedes the agreements in place between them and David's. That is not the case. You need to look at all 3 contracts to understand why David's is actually responsible to both parties, but neither the owner nor renter have a responsibility to each other beyond the owner not cancelling the reservation made (which no one can argue is the case in this situation).



Couldn’t the argument be made that Disney as the property management company acted on behalf of the owners in this case?


----------



## TS1998a

Has anyone gotten the remaning 30% on a Disney-cancelled reservation? One of my renter's was supposed to check in today (offered to reschedule but no response from David's on this reservation) and no payment. Just curious before I send them yet another email that will likely be ignored as well.


----------



## CraigInPA

VeroGuy said:


> Couldn’t the argument be made that Disney as the property management company acted on behalf of the owners in this case?



Acted on behalf of the owners, yes. 

Acted at the direction of the owner whose name appears on the rental agreement, no. 

You can't extend liability to the owner by the fact that all DVC members have hired a company which acts autonomously for the well being of the entire group of members. That's like trying to sue the President of the United States because a restaurant you invested in failed because the President issued an order for social distancing. 

The contract is clear in how an individual owner may cause a breach. The closure of the resorts is not included in the list of potential owner breaches. Had a force majeure clause been included, liability for this situation would have been clear. This is really a case of incompetent contract drafting, and it's going to bite David's hard as they will have to assume liability to both parties.


----------



## CraigInPA

fsjking said:


> I suspect the bank eats a lot of them with customers they want to keep. Our company does about 100k a year with Stripe. We are fairly sure that we've had people initiate chargebacks, but not a single one has been even forwarded to us for dispute let alone taking the money out of our account.



There are two fees paid when you process a transaction. The first is a transaction fee. It's usually a small amount of money, like $0.01 to $0.35 and you pay it regardless of whether the charge is accepted or not. The second fee is the discount rate, which is a straight percentage of the total amount collected. This is usually between 1.25% and 5%. The lower figures are for established merchants who move a lot of volume. People using Stripe and Square typically are paying high transaction fees and discount rates because they aren't doing millions of dollars a year. If you're not getting chargebacks from Stripe, it's likely they are eating those chargebacks because your discount rate and transaction fees allow them to write off a certain number per year. If the number of chargebacks reaches a point where they aren't making money, they'll suspend your account.


----------



## ziravan

meryll83 said:


> “Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts.”



This is the money quote from David’s email: an admission that he is violating the terms of the original contract, “forced to step outside our policies”.

THIS is the documentation I would be giving the CC companies on a chargeback - David admitting that he’s no longer honoring the contract.


----------



## Galun

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> My only thought with your situation with AMEX is that perhaps they saw "Wine Futures" and immediately ruled it investing, which wouldn't qualify for protection, since investments can lose value.  But I can't say for sure what happened since I have VERY incomplete information.  I think since you got your money back, you likely got someone who processed your claim who didn't understand it fully...they may have just saw "you bought wine, you didn't receive wine, seller can't prove they sent wine...chargeback approved"



Wine futures are actual purchases, it’s basically wine maturing in barrel that haven’t been bottled for release.  So it should be the same goods not delivered. The merchant was supposed to take my money to buy the wine that I designated.  Instead he took the money to fill other people‘s orders.  He also bought a few houses, a boat, and paid for some “internet dates“ if I remember correctly.  anyways...

The scope of chargebacks you described certainly put it in perspective.   This is really straight forward - the average processor isn’t going to understand dvc point system and analyze a contract.  They see no check in, not the renter‘s fault, vendor refused refund.

Renters really ought to go for chargebacks.  If you chargeback you will most likely win and you get your money back.  In the small chance that you lose, you get the voucher.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

All I can say is I love AMEX.  They have immediately removed any disputed charges from my bill. Customer service is beyond wonderful. Lucky for me it has been accepted at most businesses I shop. I find its the doctor offices that dont take this card for payment.


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## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


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## Amymouse13

I think one shady aspect of the vouchers is reading the news at least California is talking about no sporting events next fall... What does this mean for Disney?  David's voucher program says you make a new reservation and you agree if the park is closed you don't get a refund for real - at least I think that's what I read... Basically a way for them to fix their bad contract and avoid losing money if the parks stay closed an extended period of time or a second nationwide closure occurs... No dice for us, we put in chargeback weeks ago.


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## ziravan

I understand that the point of the voucher program is to try to stop the chargebacks, but the end result is that it’s going to force even more chargebacks as more people determine that’s the only recourse available to them to seek a refund.


----------



## merry_nbright

ziravan said:


> I understand that the point of the voucher program is to try to stop the chargebacks, but the end result is that it’s going to force even more chargebacks as more people determine that’s the only recourse available to them to seek a refund.



Exactly. The more I sit and think about things, I seriously just want to cancel and rebook through Disney. This stress isn’t worth it.


----------



## Amymouse13

ziravan said:


> I understand that the point of the voucher program is to try to stop the chargebacks, but the end result is that it’s going to force even more chargebacks as more people determine that’s the only recourse available to them to seek a refund.



I think part of David's ploy is to get people to agree to take voucher and waive rights to chargeback...


----------



## McCrae

Galun said:


> Wine futures are actual purchases, it’s basically wine maturing in barrel that haven’t been bottled for release.  So it should be the same goods not delivered. The merchant was supposed to take my money to buy the wine that I designated.  Instead he took the money to fill other people‘s orders.  He also bought a few houses, a boat, and paid for some “internet dates“ if I remember correctly.  anyways...
> 
> The scope of chargebacks you described certainly put it in perspective.   This is really straight forward - the average processor isn’t going to understand dvc point system and analyze a contract.  They see no check in, not the renter‘s fault, vendor refused refund.
> 
> Renters really ought to go for chargebacks.  If you chargeback you will most likely win and you get your money back.  In the small chance that you lose, you get the voucher.



There is nothing to lose trying the chargeback option.


----------



## najgreen

Has anyone had success with their travel insurance?  I am a renter with a week at Aulani early June that I expect will be cancelled.  I have travel insurance but they are taking it on a "case by case basis" and won't review mine until I actually file a claim.  I can't file a claim until I get the notification from Davids that it has been cancelled.  I found the owners through facebook and sent them a message to see what the status of their points were and if they would be willing to reschedule for me, but they are not responding.   So, was curious if those that have already had their stays cancelled and had insurance were able to make successful insurance claims?


----------



## foodiddiedoo

najgreen said:


> Has anyone had success with their travel insurance?  I am a renter with a week at Aulani early June that I expect will be cancelled.  I have travel insurance but they are taking it on a "case by case basis" and won't review mine until I actually file a claim.  I can't file a claim until I get the notification from Davids that it has been cancelled.  I found the owners through facebook and sent them a message to see what the status of their points were and if they would be willing to reschedule for me, but they are not responding.   So, was curious if those that have already had their stays cancelled and had insurance were able to make successful insurance claims?


Just as an FYI my April 18th stay at Aulani was only canceled by Disney on this Tuesday despite Aulani being closed for almost a month at this point.  Don't expect Disney to cancel your reservation until within about 5-6 days of check in.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Has anyone actually received an email from David's on the credit that he's been promising today?  I know it's still early on the West Coast, but was curious.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I reiterate that I am not a lawyer and i'm not providing legal advice.
> 
> This is correct.  Each "investigator" is simply someone processing a form...checking the boxes...the "logic" of who wins is determined by an algorithm, and it's mostly done by computers.  Simply because of the sheer volume.  They certainly don't have time to read the contract, they don't have the legal skills/training to make an actual determination of who should win in light of that contract.  In the case of a chargeback from a "product/service not delivered complaint" it simply comes down to "can the merchant provide evidence that the product was delivered?"  If yes, the merchant wins.  If no, then the purchaser wins.  Again...it's HIGHLY bureaucratic.
> 
> If it requires any more actual investigation/argument/contracts etc. then they will simply say that they've made their decision and if you disagree, take the other guy to court.
> 
> So, for the renters who file a chargeback against David's, my opinion on how things will play out is: the credit card companies will take their money back and they will see it on their credit card statement.  David's can contest the chargeback saying "no refunds policy", but since it's an "item/service not delivered" complaint, I believe that the only thing that will enable David's to win the chargeback would be some kind of evidence that the product was delivered...this might be a statement from DVC saying the reservation was valid and wasn't checked in...etc.  Obviously he won't be able to produce that since it doesn't exist and I believe that he would lose the charge back.
> 
> At that point, David's only recourse to "keep" the money from the renter would be to then file a lawsuit against them and win it.   I've read the two contracts on David's website and I don't believe he would be able to actually be successful here either.  In my opinion, the contract between the renter and David's becomes void once the reservation can no longer be delivered.  It may also be a bad idea for David's to open that can of worms...I'm not an expert on consumer law in Canada...and again, i'm not a lawyer...this is not legal advice...this is only my personal opinion...etc...but he might open himself up to a counter suit...the renter might be able to claim that because the contract was cancelled through no fault of their own David's owes them for related losses/expenses...non refundable flights, lost vacation time, costs of alternative accommodations, etc.
> 
> The other issue on David's being able to actually file a lawsuit against anyone is that i'm guessing most of David's customers and the DVC owners he works with are in the USA.  He's operating a business in Canada.  His contract states that everything is to be litigated in Canada.  He can file a suit, but would likely have a hard time winning a judgement.  But even if he did get a judgement, if the person he is suing is in the USA with no assets/job in Canada, he would have no way to enforce the judgement and collect any money, without then trying to get the judgement in Canada recognized by a United States Court that has jurisdiction over the person they are trying to sue.  This is an exceptionally expensive process with not a good chance of actually recovering any money.  I don't think it's really done unless there is a dispute that involves more than tens of thousands of dollars with a good chance that you can actually recover something.


How long does it usually take from A-Z for a chargeback?  I've only ever filed a dispute when someone stole my credit card number and charged a few thousand to TJMAXX and that was resolved immediately since the bank closed that card, sent me a new one, and immediately removed the charges.  I filed my dispute on Tuesday, still haven't received any emails etc from my credit card issuer,but I do have a Case Number.  Is this usual?


----------



## starry_solo

foodiddiedoo said:


> How long does it usually take from A-Z for a chargeback?  I've only ever filed a dispute when someone stole my credit card number and charged a few thousand to TJMAXX and that was resolved immediately since the bank closed that card, sent me a new one, and immediately removed the charges.  I filed my dispute on Tuesday, still haven't received any emails etc from my credit card issuer,but I do have a Case Number.  Is this usual?



yes. its been a while since I’ve had to file a chargeback and I did it online. But I got all correspondence regarding the chargeback  via snail mail


----------



## Dracula

foodiddiedoo said:


> How long does it usually take from A-Z for a chargeback?  I've only ever filed a dispute when someone stole my credit card number and charged a few thousand to TJMAXX and that was resolved immediately since the bank closed that card, sent me a new one, and immediately removed the charges.  I filed my dispute on Tuesday, still haven't received any emails etc from my credit card issuer,but I do have a Case Number.  Is this usual?


I have received a credit on the account immediately after submitting the dispute online with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Again I find myself grateful for your thoughtful and reasoned posts.

This is the first post of yours that I am not in total agreement with.  I believe 'no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party' is an overstatement.

The more complicated disagreement is on a point not directly addressed.  In the event someone actually went to court on this I can see the key phrase as being '30% being due on the day of check in'.  It may seem that this means the day check in is supposed to take place; that the contract states it will take place.
Yet I can also see a case where a judge rules check in is not just an idea but an actual act.  That 'check in' is the key to every parties expectations of the contract(s).  So if no check in is available nor allowed then there is no 'date of check in'.  

With the resort closed clearly no judge will require a plaintiff to actually travel to disney and attempt to check in.  Check in is clearly impossible so the expense of attempting to check in would be wasted, and if a renter sued for those expenses they would never be allowed no matter the result of the case.  Impossible means a lot in contract law.  Frustration of the contract means something.  How an individual judge interprets something is really pot luck in a case like this.

If check in is impossible, and it is now, at a minimum it puts the 30% into play because the purpose of the hold back is not clearly spelled out imo.  The 30% being in play means a link is established to go after the the 70%.  This gets very complicated very fast costing a great deal of money.

This is highly fact dependent.  I can not imagine a judge allowing an owner who got the initial payment, then cancelled the reservation and was able to reuse the points to win.

In general I think people are confusing the purpose of the 30%.  IMO it is simply to stop owners from cancelling reservation. Consumer protection is just another complication.  More complicated there are a lot of states and foreign governments in play.

It is really import to underline what you state at the end.  Law supersede contracts terms.  Even DVC contracts.  Even with 'owners'.



CraigInPA said:


> Under US law, no party to a contract has a responsibility to mitigate damages to another party.
> 
> You've also greatly simplified the relationship of the parties, which is how a court would determine who takes the loss.
> 
> The owner has a separate agreement with David's which laid out the number of points, when they expire, and how much David's is to pay and when. The payment terms are 70% of the fee at booking, and 30% on check-in day, regardless of whether the renter checks in. David's has, apparently, breached that agreement by withholding the 30% payment for rentals which occurred when the resort was closed, and is asking owners to re-book and wait on that payment until the new reservation check in date or to refund the deposit payment. While the resort closure we now face was not contemplated by the contract, the broker, who drafted the contract, knew that such a situation could and has occurred in the past. If the situation was known, and the broker chose not to include it in the agreement, he cannot then unilaterally re-write the agreement to benefit himself. David's owes the final payment on the original check-in date. Period. Full Stop. Anything else the owner and David's agrees to do is open to negotiation, not what David's says will happen.
> 
> The renter has an agreement for a room reservation with a no-refunds and no-changes clause. Strictly under the contract terms, the renter is losing everything. Under consumer protection laws which may be in effect based upon where the parties are located, *which supersede the contract terms*, the renter is due a full refund. David's has offered a voucher program instead of refunds. Whether that is legal under Canadian law is a question that hasn't been addressed.


----------



## disneykins

Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.


----------



## waltonmkb

I have a reservation thru David's starting May 18th so I can't do anything until then.  If he goes bankrupt between now and then, am I out of luck as far as a chargeback?


----------



## Sandisw

disneykins said:


> Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
> I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
> Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.



He is deleting all negative comments. He is only leaving those that praise him.


----------



## GoingSince1990

waltonmkb said:


> I have a reservation thru David's starting May 18th so I can't do anything until then.  If he goes bankrupt between now and then, am I out of luck as far as a chargeback?


As others have pointed out, if you have used a credit card to pay for something that ended up not being provided, you have a legal right to a chargeback even if the merchant goes bankrupt. There is a much more detailed post earlier in this thread about who exactly will end up paying in this circumstance, but whether it's Visa, Mastercard, the card processors, or the issuing banks, the upshot is that it won't be you, assuming your dispute is successful, which it likely will be. Part of the fee that the credit cards charge to process payments is to go towards the payment of successful future chargebacks.


----------



## waltfan1957

Marionnette said:


> Dont you have all of the renters contact info when making the reservation going through David? You have to because the owner has to make the reservation.


----------



## TheWheel

disneykins said:


> Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
> I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
> Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.


For one Davids has been removing negative posts from their facebook. The reality is that the people on this board are more engaged in this discussion compared to a passive renter.  They may think it's awesome that their non refundable vacation is just going to be postponed and all will be well with the world in a month when the economy reopens and they will then get everything they paid for a month later. Talk to me in a few months or years after this is all over and we'll see their opionions then.


----------



## waltfan1957

fsjking said:


> That's the first time I've seen that. The "We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival." line suggests that the owners are not entitled to the 30% as the guests don't have a room. Granted, I don't think that's a contract you are quoting.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a contract. You are required to follow it. If someone wants to go to the full extent to pursue legal action, I have no doubt that the owners who choose to keep the points and money would lose.
> 
> Stating you are from the UK and no one can find you is just showing your character and that you likely intend to commit fraud in regards to the contract you signed. That says all anyone needs to know about you.


Please don't think all UK owners are the same, regardless of David's contract I would have contacted the renters to see if we could do anything .


----------



## disneykins

I understand David might be deleting negative posts. But when I see 100% positive posts there and 100% negative posts somewhere else, I wonder if both are deleting what suits them. Remember, the other major rental company is owned by these boards and I'm not seeing anything negative about them. Just saying.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Today from Dave's FB.  Should have the credit paperwork shortly.

_Starting Thursday April 16th, the Travel Credit system will be rolled out, and we'll begin contacting our guests to provide them with the exact details about how the Credit works, the dollar value, how to redeem the Credit, and the terms and conditions.

Additionally, after listening to the feedback from our guests, we've extended the timeline for the travel credit; guests will have 24 months from the date of issue to redeem their Credit._


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> he more complicated disagreement is on a point not directly addressed. In the event someone actually went to court on this I can see the key phrase as being '30% being due on the day of check in'. It may seem that this means the day check in is supposed to take place; that the contract states it will take place.
> Yet I can also see a case where a judge rules check in is not just an idea but an actual act. That 'check in' is the key to every parties expectations of the contract(s). So if no check in is available nor allowed then there is no 'date of check in'.



This is a moot point; David drafted the contract that is in dispute here.  His interpretation of when the final 30% is due is clearly documented on his website under the "Owners" section where he actively solicits the points from the owners and has already been posted in this thread.  The check in day does not change and is not dependent on actually checking in to the resort.  David states himself that the owner is paid regardless of the renter actually checking in.  He could argue whatever he'd like in a court, but a simple screen shot showing HIS intent of HIS terms would end that argument fairly quickly.  He's already authored statements documented that his terms are non-refundable and all the posturing he's engaging in is going outside of his policies and for goodwill purposes only.  He's made his position clear.

I feel the need to add this, but regardless of what is legal, I hope that every owner, renter , and David can be made as whole as possible.  I treat every rental as if it's my own and would do everything in my control to help any renter, even if it means me losing out.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

It is not moot but you may not be seeing my point.  Again, law beats contract.  Dave's interpretation is of little value.  Put Dave out of your head.  Who drafted the contract is not the issue.  Dave has an opinion like everyone can have an opinion (or other things)  I am not arguing the contract exists or not or if it is between 2 or 3 people or that the contract says owner is paid regardless of renter actually checking in or not.  However that is not the end of the story.  Renter ready, willing and able but is prevented, through no fault of renter. 

What are facts here?  Contracts were signed, then after signing the resort is closed pursuant to government order.  It would violate the order for the resort to be open and for renters to be there trying to check in.  Violating the order is illegal.

_“Under Florida contract law, the defense of ‘impossibility’ may be asserted in situations ‘where* purposes for which the contract was made, have, on one side become impossible to perform*.’” Harvey v. Lake Buena Vista Resort, LLC, 568 F. Supp. 2d 1354 ... “*Acts of God*” and *governmental action* are among several types of business risks which implicate the impossibility defense.” ...
Events that may make performance of the contract impossible include:_

_supervening governmental action that makes performance of the contract illegal;_







Friendlyadvice2 said:


> This is a moot point; David drafted the contract that is in dispute here.  His interpretation of when the final 30% is due is clearly documented on his website under the "Owners" section where he actively solicits the points from the owners and has already been posted in this thread.  The check in day does not change and is not dependent on actually checking in to the resort.  David states himself that the owner is paid regardless of the renter actually checking in.  He could argue whatever he'd like in a court, but a simple screen shot showing HIS intent of HIS terms would end that argument fairly quickly.  He's already authored statements documented that his terms are non-refundable and all the posturing he's engaging in is going outside of his policies and for goodwill purposes only.  He's made his position clear.
> 
> I feel the need to add this, but regardless of what is legal, I hope that every owner, renter , and David can be made as whole as possible.  I treat every rental as if it's my own and would do everything in my control to help any renter, even if it means me losing out.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Sandisw said:


> He is deleting all negative comments. He is only leaving those that praise him.



yes he is, I tried to comment but my comments got deleted and now I can’t comment to anything on his page anymore so much for transparency and honesty.


----------



## Miffy

In the future, this thread--or the main points from it--should be required reading for owners, people considering renting points or renting out their points, and people contemplating purchasing DVC, particularly people who're assuming they'll be able to either rent out points or use their banked points anywhere near their expiration date. Yes, this unprecedented situation may never happen again, but something else could happen that could have the same effect or worse.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> It is not moot but you may not be seeing my point.  Again, law beats contract.  Dave's interpretation is of little value.  Put Dave out of your head.  Who drafted the contract is not the issue.  Dave has an opinion like everyone can have an opinion (or other things)  I am not arguing the contract exists or not or if it is between 2 or 3 people or that the contract says owner is paid regardless of renter actually checking in or not.  However that is not the end of the story.  Renter ready, willing and able but is prevented, through no fault of renter.
> 
> What are facts here?  Contracts were signed, then after signing the resort is closed pursuant to government order.  It would violate the order for the resort to be open and for renters to be there trying to check in.  Violating the order is illegal.
> 
> _“Under Florida contract law, the defense of ‘impossibility’ may be asserted in situations ‘where* purposes for which the contract was made, have, on one side become impossible to perform*.’” Harvey v. Lake Buena Vista Resort, LLC, 568 F. Supp. 2d 1354 ... “*Acts of God*” and *governmental action* are among several types of business risks which implicate the impossibility defense.” ...
> Events that may make performance of the contract impossible include:_
> 
> _supervening governmental action that makes performance of the contract illegal;_




What you've described is force majeure and there is no clause for that in the contract that David drafted with HIS terms.  I don't dispute that Dave's interpretation is of little value; in fact it is the whole point of my post as I find no value in David's interpretation, but will gladly gather all the evidence as to what his interpretation is.  

You mention "the renter ready, willing and able is prevented, through no fault of renter", but you don't mention the owner ready, willing and able made a reservation that was cancelled by no fault of their own.  Again, this argument has gone full circle so many times, that everybody is dizzy!  Nobody wins here.  

What I do know is that a lot of people, owners and renters, relied on information provided by David and, based on the information, engaged him and paid handsomely to be a part of rental transaction that was supposed to be seamless.  Nobody got that and very few, if anybody, are winning here.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

It is specifically not force maeure.  _“*Acts of God*” _*and*_ *governmental action"*_ 
It does not matter if it is in the contract or not.  Law beats contract.

Again, owner is RW&A, but check in is prevented by...... GOVERNMENTAL ACTION.  Nobody did anything wrong.  It is not about winning or losing nor have I seen it mentioned before.  If this is repetitive I apologize.  

I am not taking sides.



Friendlyadvice2 said:


> What you've described is force majeure and there is no clause for that in the contract that David drafted with HIS terms.  I don't dispute that Dave's interpretation is of little value; in fact it is the whole point of my post as I find no value in David's interpretation, but will gladly gather all the evidence as to what his interpretation is.
> 
> You mention "the renter ready, willing and able is prevented, through no fault of renter", but you don't mention the owner ready, willing and able made a reservation that was cancelled by no fault of their own.  Again, this argument has gone full circle so many times, that everybody is dizzy!  Nobody wins here.
> 
> What I do know is that a lot of people, owners and renters, relied on information provided by David and, based on the information, engaged him and paid handsomely to be a part of rental transaction that was supposed to be seamless.  Nobody got that and very few, if anybody, are winning here.


----------



## davper

waltonmkb said:


> As a renter, I would like to see if the owner would consider splitting the cost 50/50 if they lost points, but I’m unsure how to convey that to David’s.  I’m afraid that if the owner gives back 100%, David’s will only pass on 50% of that since they know I will be happy with that and nobody will be the wiser.  I am sure though, that I will not be accepting a travel credit.


The problem with this is the owner has only gotten 56% of the rental price. So by your thoughts, they would return only 6%.



Dracula said:


> I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.


Yes, he breaks the contract 1st on the 1st contract. But that has no bearing on contract 2, 3, & 4. If you breach as a retaliation of contract 1, then you are liable for 2, 3, & 4.



disneypharm said:


> The choice of the words above is BS!!   I understand that some owners with banked points might not be able to reschedule or refund cash, but others might be able to do.  David is trying to keep his relationship with the owners for the future, so screwing the renter in the meantime. Owners will get their points back and keep their 70% from David’s (yes, I know some banked points will be lost but we still don’t know what DVC will do for sure).  From comments from some owners on this thread, I guess a lot of owners don’t really care what happens to renters.
> 
> I am tired of reading from owners that we signed the contract that clearly says non-refundable, but the same contract states that refund (not a voucher) will be provided if the accommodation is not available.


David's is trying to screw the owners over as well. They have handledthis whole thing very poorly and claim it is fair for all.



lovethesun12 said:


> I don't understand why some owners/renters want to talk to the other party so badly. Why did you go through David's if you want to deal directly?
> 
> I'd rather go through the rental company and be contacted that way - that's why I used them.


I would rather go through the rental company also, but they are not responsive right now. For some owners, they are in a position where they can cancel and bank the points. If they wait for David's to act, it may be too late for that limiting what an owner can do for the renter.




Galun said:


> Wine futures are actual purchases, it’s basically wine maturing in barrel that haven’t been bottled for release.  So it should be the same goods not delivered. The merchant was supposed to take my money to buy the wine that I designated.  Instead he took the money to fill other people‘s orders.  He also bought a few houses, a boat, and paid for some “internet dates“ if I remember correctly.  anyways...


Bad analogy. Wine futures is a speculation on a promise. Purchasing futures is no guarantee that you will get the value paid.



disneykins said:


> Everyone here seems to think David is going bankrupt. On his facebook page there is nothing but praise for how he is handling this situation, not one negative post out of 100+ comments. I've read about 30 pages on this thread and haven't read one positive one. Strange.
> I am an owner and have used David with no problems. I only have one small contract so I don't have much money at risk. Someone just rented from me for Halloween, got my 70% and have confidence that if the Ressie cant be completed, David will work it out.
> Some on here have thousands of points and rent almost exclusively, so I can understand their concern. Kinda like all those MBAs coming out of college and buying condos in NYC to use as Air BnBs, going to have trouble making mortgag payments now.


All those positive comments are from renters who have been told they will be made whole. All the owner's comments that they are getting screwed are getting removed. I know because I was one of them.
You claim you read 30 pages on this thread and you still believe 'David will work it out'. Good luck with that. Let's put what is happening up against your rental...
Disney is still closed come October. David's sends you an email asking for the 70% back. They tell you that they are not refunding the owner. They will keep the money and give the renter an undefined voucher to be used on future travel, despite contract stating they will get full refund. Also on the contract, as long as you do everything required, you are guaranteed payment that is not being honoured. And to make matters worse, your points expire 12/1/20 and can't be banked. Do you still have confidence in David's now that you are out your points and the money you were to get for them?

The way David has handled and communicated this whole thing has been poor. I expected more for the 22.5% I gave up.


----------



## disneykins

I would only be out my money if I send it back. I will work with the renter in that case but I will keep my payment (the 70% I already have). My argument for keeping the money would be that the renter knew the park was closed when he booked and took that risk. I might still be out the 30 % but I can tolerate that loss.


----------



## twinklebug

davper said:


> The way David has handled and communicated this whole thing has been poor. I expected more for the 22.5% I gave up.



Dude has been traveling the globe with his wife almost non-stop for the last year and bragging about it weekly, if not daily on social media. That was done in poor taste even during good times.

Then he abuses the good faith of his customers at a time when many of them are being put out of work by a pandemic and failing economy.

SMH.


----------



## Marionnette

disneykins said:


> I understand David might be deleting negative posts. But when I see 100% positive posts there and 100% negative posts somewhere else, I wonder if both are deleting what suits them. Remember, the other major rental company is owned by these boards and I'm not seeing anything negative about them. Just saying.


Disboards does not own a major DVC rental company. They do own a travel agency...Dreams Unlimited. Plus, given that this thread is specifically about David’s (check the title), it wouldn’t be surprising that they are the agency being discussed.

The only posts I’ve noticed being deleted on this thread were those that got too personal with their remarks. And I’ve been following pretty closely since the thread started.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

IMO people are trying to read exact and precise legal meaning into emails from Dave's that are meant to reassure and solve a problem.  I am pretty confident this was not reviewed by an attorney prior to Dave sending it.  It was send to me.  It is accurate and unaltered outside me removing personal information.  It asks *"if"* I would be willing to help.  No demand no threat.  They ask me not to cancel if it appear active and IMO that is pretty good advice for me and better for Dave.  I have not contacted the renter yet because I am still in the banking window.  Then Dave asks "work with us to see if there are any alternatives"

Dave does not say there has been contact with the renter and IMO the renter should make the decision on whether to gamble on Disney opening in late May/early June.  I am waiting on an answer to this question.  The idea of just returning the 70% is not developed at all.  This is not really surprising to me.  I assume it means in the event I get all my points back.  It seem evident that only a fool would expect me to send the money back if my points have vanished.  Waiting for an answer.  Yet it is an 'ask' if I am willing.  No threat and no demand.  Dave states it is a big request.

Then since I have some of the money I am asked"if" i get my points back I would re-rent them.  I presume this means without additional payment but don't know and I am waiting on a answer.

Dave specifically says the funds returned would go toward a travel credit and it would include Dave's commission.  I assume but don't know Dave would take commission on use of the voucher.

"Good afternoon [DMU],

We are reaching out to you today in regards to the XXXXXX reservation.
As you are aware, COVID-19 has become a pandemic, and Disney Resorts and Operations has made the difficult but brave choice to close “until further notice”. The Disney Vacation Club is cancelling those reservations impacted by their decision and returning points to owner’s accounts.

As a result we are reaching out to inquire *if *you would be open to helping the XXXXXX family during this difficult time.

*Reservation #XXXXXXXXXXX
Check in Date: May XX,2020*
We ask, at this point, that you *do not cancel this reservation if it appears active*,but continue to work with us to see if there are any alternatives arrangements that we could pursue to assist this family.
 We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% for the XXXXX reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the XXXXXX family paid for their reservation including our commission.
_We understand that refunding the money is not feasible for all owners, in which case would you be willing to re-rent your returned points?_By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.
We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution.
*Please let us know if you are willing to assist.*If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reach out.
We look forward to hearing from you!"


----------



## CraigInPA

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> It is specifically not force maeure.  _“*Acts of God*” _*and*_ *governmental action"*_
> It does not matter if it is in the contract or not.  Law beats contract.
> 
> Again, owner is RW&A, but check in is prevented by...... GOVERNMENTAL ACTION.  Nobody did anything wrong.  It is not about winning or losing nor have I seen it mentioned before.  If this is repetitive I apologize.
> 
> I am not taking sides.



The initial closure by Disney was not based upon "Governmental Action". The Governor's order to shelter in place came weeks after Disney closed the resorts.  

Furthermore, "acts of God and governmental actions" are actually Force Majeure events. 

If this ever were to end up in court, a Judge would review what each party thought at the time they were signing the agreement. It's quite clear from David's literature and contracts that his belief and the owner's belief at signing is that the check-in date is the date of the final payment, whether the check-in occurs or not. This is why your argument that the check-in date being impossible (due to resort closure) is a reason to avoid payment of the final 30% payment to the owner is a non-starter.


----------



## Madame

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO people are trying to read exact and precise legal meaning into emails from Dave's that are meant to reassure and solve a problem.  I am pretty confident this was not reviewed by an attorney prior to Dave sending it.  It was send to me.  It is accurate and unaltered outside me removing personal information.  It asks *"if"* I would be willing to help.  No demand no threat.  They ask me not to cancel if it appear active and IMO that is pretty good advice for me and better for Dave.  I have not contacted the renter yet because I am still in the banking window.  Then Dave asks "work with us to see if there are any alternatives"
> 
> Dave does not say there has been contact with the renter and IMO the renter should make the decision on whether to gamble on Disney opening in late May/early June.  I am waiting on an answer to this question.  The idea of just returning the 70% is not developed at all.  This is not really surprising to me.  I assume it means in the event I get all my points back.  It seem evident that only a fool would expect me to send the money back if my points have vanished.  Waiting for an answer.  Yet it is an 'ask' if I am willing.  No threat and no demand.  Dave states it is a big request.
> 
> Then since I have some of the money I am asked"if" i get my points back I would re-rent them.  I presume this means without additional payment but don't know and I am waiting on a answer.
> 
> Dave specifically says the funds returned would go toward a travel credit and it would include Dave's commission.  I assume but don't know Dave would take commission on use of the voucher.
> 
> "Good afternoon [DMU],
> 
> We are reaching out to you today in regards to the XXXXXX reservation.
> As you are aware, COVID-19 has become a pandemic, and Disney Resorts and Operations has made the difficult but brave choice to close “until further notice”. The Disney Vacation Club is cancelling those reservations impacted by their decision and returning points to owner’s accounts.
> 
> As a result we are reaching out to inquire *if *you would be open to helping the XXXXXX family during this difficult time.
> 
> *Reservation #XXXXXXXXXXX
> Check in Date: May XX,2020*
> We ask, at this point, that you *do not cancel this reservation if it appears active*,but continue to work with us to see if there are any alternatives arrangements that we could pursue to assist this family.
> We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% for the XXXXX reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the XXXXXX family paid for their reservation including our commission.
> _We understand that refunding the money is not feasible for all owners, in which case would you be willing to re-rent your returned points?_By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.
> We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution.
> *Please let us know if you are willing to assist.*If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reach out.
> We look forward to hearing from you!"


People need to wake up. 
Per their lawyers:


----------



## CraigInPA

Madame said:


> People need to wake up.
> Per their lawyers:
> View attachment 488399



That's their legal theory, untested in court. I'd expect nothing else from their attorney. Especially so if they were the firm that incompetently drafted the agreements by leaving out a Force Majeure clause. David's should be going after their errors and omissions policy carrier to bail him out.

It's clear that David's is not planning on continuing in business. When you are a broker, you can't screw over your source of supply, which is what this does.

Note that his attorney is likely "Lerners LLP", not "Learners LLP" as stated in the message.


----------



## twinklebug

CraigInPA said:


> That's their legal theory, untested in court. I'd expect nothing else from their attorney. Especially so if they were the firm that incompetently drafted the agreements by leaving out a Force Majeure clause. David's should be going after their errors and omissions policy carrier to bail him out.
> 
> It's clear that David's is not planning on continuing in business. When you are a broker, you can't screw over your source of supply, which is what this does.
> 
> Note that his attorney is likely "Lerners LLP", not "Learners LLP" as stated in the message.



He's more than planning on continuing, he is employing adult family members (his own kids).
David's business model is too old fashioned. IMHO, he needs to step down all the way and just let the kids, who actually care about the customers take over... that is if the company still exists after all this.


----------



## disneykins

I got an email from David's today to book a reservation for the fall. Not many points so not much risk? Is it worth it?


----------



## Madame

CraigInPA said:


> That's their legal theory, untested in court. I'd expect nothing else from their attorney. Especially so if they were the firm that incompetently drafted the agreements by leaving out a Force Majeure clause. David's should be going after their errors and omissions policy carrier to bail him out.
> 
> It's clear that David's is not planning on continuing in business. When you are a broker, you can't screw over your source of supply, which is what this does.
> 
> Note that his attorney is likely "Lerners LLP", not "Learners LLP" as stated in the message.


Yep, but owners beware.


----------



## Dracula

Madame said:


> People need to wake up.
> Per their lawyers:
> View attachment 488399


Interesting. However, neither David's or their retained attorneys, Lerners LLP, cannot unilaterally deem the contract as frustrated. This would need to be determined by the courts of law in Ontario that have jurisdiction over the contract.
Furthermore, a finding of frustration does not immediately create a liability for the owner for the 70% downpayment. The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void _ab initio_; only future obligations are discharged. You are likely to lose the remaining 30% payment, but an argument can be made that the owner executed his part of the agreement by providing a confirmed reservation to the renter, via the intermediary.


----------



## Sandisw

disneykins said:


> I understand David might be deleting negative posts. But when I see 100% positive posts there and 100% negative posts somewhere else, I wonder if both are deleting what suits them. Remember, the other major rental company is owned by these boards and I'm not seeing anything negative about them. Just saying.



Here are the Disboards, unless a post violates the guidelines,  members are free to post,  

Nothing is deleted unless it is a violation of the rules.


----------



## Madame

Dracula said:


> Interesting. However, neither David's or their retained attorneys, Lerners LLP, cannot unilaterally deem the contract as frustrated. This would need to be determined by the courts of law in Ontario that have jurisdiction over the contract.
> Furthermore, a finding of frustration does not immediately create a liability for the owner of the 70% downpayment. The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void _ab initio_; only future obligations are discharged. You are likely to lose the remaining 30% payment, but an argument can be done that the owner executed his part of the agreement by providing a confirmed reservation for the renter, through the intermediary.


Yes, but they believe that I am too naive/stupid to question them.  We know Lerners...  My DH is in investments in Ontario...  I would never deal with David’s again.  I cannot believe that they think owners are that dumb that we’ll just accept their word and fork over the cash no matter the state of the points.  They’ve had my points tied up since last summer!!  And the whole PayPal aspect is a concern now as well.  We’ll be giving them back the funds via bank draft sent registered mail.  Then DONE.  It’s not worth my time or effort at the moment.


----------



## CraigInPA

disneykins said:


> I got an email from David's today to book a reservation for the fall. Not many points so not much risk? Is it worth it?



LOL. Why would you even consider doing business with him? See the post from Madame a few higher, where he is telling owners that he wants all the money back for the "non-refundable" reservations. I doubt he'll be in business to pay you by the time that reservation check in date arrives.


----------



## Sandisw

disneykins said:


> I got an email from David's today to book a reservation for the fall. Not many points so not much risk? Is it worth it?



IMO, no


----------



## cmrdgrs

disneykins said:


> I got an email from David's today to book a reservation for the fall. Not many points so not much risk? Is it worth it?


First off there is very little inventory for the fall in studios. Second, I thought I read somewhere if you reschedule and the resort closes again you may not reschedule another trip. Is that true?

ETA: opps... didn't realize that you're being contacted to put a rental together.  IMO, no I would not do this.  Rent the points yourself and make ALL the money.  As we have clearly learned brokers don't protect anyone from anything.  Tons of examples out there for what to put in your contract and lots of places you can find renters.  I don't think the DIS has a "wanted" board (not sure), but other boards have these types of places on their boards to find renters.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> First off there is very little inventory for the fall in studios. Second, I thought I read somewhere if you reschedule and the resort closes again you may not reschedule another trip. Is that true?
> 
> ETA: opps... didn't realize that you're being contacted to put a rental together.  IMO, no I would not do this.  Rent the points yourself and make ALL the money.  As we have clearly learned brokers don't protect anyone from anything.  Tons of examples out there for what to put in your contract and lots of places you can find renters.  I don't think the DIS has a "wanted" board (not sure), but other boards have these types of places on their boards to find renters.



We do not have wanted boards,  People may respond to those offer points for reservations or transfers!


----------



## starry_solo

Madame said:


> Yes, but they believe that I am too naive/stupid to question them.  We know Lerners...  My DH is in investments in Ontario...  I would never deal with David’s again.  I cannot believe that they think owners are that dumb that we’ll just accept their word and fork over the cash no matter the state of the points.  They’ve had my points tied up since last summer!!  And the whole PayPal aspect is a concern now as well.  We’ll be giving them back the funds via bank draft sent registered mail.  Then DONE.  It’s not worth my time or effort at the moment.



actually, has it been six months since they sent you payment via PayPal? If not, open the transaction and click on refund. Paper trail through PayPal that way


----------



## Madame

I think that those who believe their money to be safe if they’ve been paid the 70% via PayPal had better think again.  AFAIK, nothing is stopping PP disputes from David’s against owners.  Correct me if I am wrong...


----------



## Madame

starry_solo said:


> actually, has it been six months since they sent you payment via PayPal? If not, open the transaction and click on refund. Paper trail through PayPal that way


Perfect thanks!  I wasn’t looking forward to going into the bank with everything that’s going on.


----------



## starry_solo

Madame said:


> I think if that those who believe their money to be safe if they’ve been paid the 70% via PayPal had better think again.  AFAIK, nothing is stopping PP disputes from David’s against owners.  Correct me if I am wrong...



did he send as a gift (friends and family) or as services? If services then can easily dispute six months after payment. As friends, can dispute through bank (unless he paid using a credit card)...


----------



## Madame

starry_solo said:


> did he send as a gift (friends and family) or as services? If services then can easily dispute six months after payment. As friends, can dispute through bank (unless he paid using a credit card)...


Pretty sure G&S.  So renters file a charge back, he files a dispute & owners are left holding the whole empty bag...


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> It is specifically not force maeure.  _“*Acts of God*” _*and*_ *governmental action"*_
> It does not matter if it is in the contract or not.  Law beats contract.
> 
> Again, owner is RW&A, but check in is prevented by...... GOVERNMENTAL ACTION.  Nobody did anything wrong.  It is not about winning or losing nor have I seen it mentioned before.  If this is repetitive I apologize.
> 
> *I am not taking sides.*


 
It is specifically force majeure and the point is moot as I told you earlier.  I simply disagree with you.  You're free to believe whatever you wish.


----------



## gdrj

poofyo101 said:


> I doubt the rental market is going to change. People love disney. People want to save money.
> What is going to change is the brokers market will change. Less brokers, and less people who trust brokers.
> To me it has always been better and safer to find a good owner to rent from then a broker.




Rental Market will change at minimum for the short-term IMO for the next year+ all depending how COVID19 is or isnt controlled in the future.  When there is a return to some type of normalcy, the rental market will strengthen but be changed.  Just not sure how.


----------



## Amymouse13

Does anyone really think Disney will be open this fall??


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

Amymouse13 said:


> Does anyone really think Disney will be open this fall??



At first, I thought yes, but based on what I've been reading/hearing, it seems more and more unlikely.  Orlando's economy is expected to be one of the hardest hit in the country.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Amymouse13 said:


> Does anyone really think Disney will be open this fall??


I haven't read through the whole 73 pages of posts, so maybe this was already discussed earlier, does David's contract have information in it about the resorts being open, but the parks being closed?  It would seem like most renters would not want to travel to WDW or DL if the parks aren't open.


----------



## Amymouse13

cmrdgrs said:


> I haven't read through the whole 73 pages of posts, so maybe this was already discussed earlier, does David's contract have information in it about the resorts being open, but the parks being closed?  It would seem like most renters would not want to travel to WDW or DL if the parks aren't open.


 
Someone asked last page about booking a new reservation this fall... Seems like if you don't think Disney will be open then why walk back into this *ell from past 73 pages??  But just me...


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

Interesting blog post over at www.disneytouristblog.com (google it) regarding DVC's point pool problem. Tom speculates that Disney may very well come up with solutions to help out DVC owners, such as opening up inventory on the resort side, which may very well be more readily available for the next several years. I think he makes some sound points. DVC owners are among Disney's most loyal, and it behooves Disney to both keep them happy and have them coming to Disney to stay and spend money.

Could David's be banking on many, if not all, owners being able to recover their points (with enough time to use them) once Disney is able to open back up and address these issues? It's not totally unrealistic to think this could happen.

I can understand why many are frustrated with David's. I'm a June renter and am certainly concerned with the prospect of being offered a potentially useless voucher (I'll likely try the chargeback route first). That being said, I don't really blame David's for their approach. Likely the only way they stay in business is to convince enough owners to return funds and enough renters to accept vouchers. Setting aside any contractual issues for a moment, it certainly seems that owners who are able to recover their points with plenty of time to use them aren't ultimately harmed by refunding David's. Maybe I should say "aren't ultimately harmed in the long run". I can appreciate some owners may not actually have the cash currently available to refund David's.

I'm certainly not taking David's side against the owners. I'm sympathetic to owners who rented out points that have or will expire soon and could lose out by refunding David's. I'm just wondering whether, when this process is ultimately able to play itself out, most owners will be offered a reasonable solution by Disney.


----------



## gdrj

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I reiterate that I am not a lawyer and i'm not providing legal advice.
> 
> This is correct.  Each "investigator" is simply someone processing a form...checking the boxes...the "logic" of who wins is determined by an algorithm, and it's mostly done by computers.  Simply because of the sheer volume.  They certainly don't have time to read the contract, they don't have the legal skills/training to make an actual determination of who should win in light of that contract.  In the case of a chargeback from a "product/service not delivered complaint" it simply comes down to "can the merchant provide evidence that the product was delivered?"  If yes, the merchant wins.  If no, then the purchaser wins.  Again...it's HIGHLY bureaucratic.
> 
> If it requires any more actual investigation/argument/contracts etc. then they will simply say that they've made their decision and if you disagree, take the other guy to court.
> 
> So, for the renters who file a chargeback against David's, my opinion on how things will play out is: the credit card companies will take their money back and they will see it on their credit card statement.  David's can contest the chargeback saying "no refunds policy", but since it's an "item/service not delivered" complaint, I believe that the only thing that will enable David's to win the chargeback would be some kind of evidence that the product was delivered...this might be a statement from DVC saying the reservation was valid and wasn't checked in...etc.  Obviously he won't be able to produce that since it doesn't exist and I believe that he would lose the charge back.
> 
> At that point, David's only recourse to "keep" the money from the renter would be to then file a lawsuit against them and win it.   I've read the two contracts on David's website and I don't believe he would be able to actually be successful here either.  In my opinion, the contract between the renter and David's becomes void once the reservation can no longer be delivered.  It may also be a bad idea for David's to open that can of worms...I'm not an expert on consumer law in Canada...and again, i'm not a lawyer...this is not legal advice...this is only my personal opinion...etc...but he might open himself up to a counter suit...the renter might be able to claim that because the contract was cancelled through no fault of their own David's owes them for related losses/expenses...non refundable flights, lost vacation time, costs of alternative accommodations, etc.
> 
> The other issue on David's being able to actually file a lawsuit against anyone is that i'm guessing most of David's customers and the DVC owners he works with are in the USA.  He's operating a business in Canada.  His contract states that everything is to be litigated in Canada.  He can file a suit, but would likely have a hard time winning a judgement.  But even if he did get a judgement, if the person he is suing is in the USA with no assets/job in Canada, he would have no way to enforce the judgement and collect any money, without then trying to get the judgement in Canada recognized by a United States Court that has jurisdiction over the person they are trying to sue.  This is an exceptionally expensive process with not a good chance of actually recovering any money.  I don't think it's really done unless there is a dispute that involves more than tens of thousands of dollars with a good chance that you can actually recover something.



A couple of things about the chargeback is that by filing, it starts the process, it gives you the credit, and the broker would need to respond to that, which might take some time.

If Davids was to close/bankruptcy etc., the chargeback might stick.  I have no dog in this fight but I would definitely file sooner than later.


----------



## cm8

cmrdgrs said:


> For this reason, some Disney boards and other sources of Disney information have cut ties with David's and will no longer recommend their services anymore.


As they should. It could potentially cause their businesses to fail too. I know I would not want to be associated with any business that couldn’t give a rats behind about making  his/ her customers whole even at his/ her loss.


----------



## merry_nbright

cm8 said:


> As they should. It could potentially cause their businesses to fail too. I know I would not want to be associated with any business that couldn’t give a rats behind about making  his/ her customers whole even at his/ her loss.


After this, I’ll never do it again, I know that much. It’s scared me off renting points all the way around.


----------



## McCrae

Madame said:


> I think that those who believe their money to be safe if they’ve been paid the 70% via PayPal had better think again.  AFAIK, nothing is stopping PP disputes from David’s against owners.  Correct me if I am wrong...


PayPal protection doesn’t extend to real estate transactions.


----------



## CraigInPA

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> _“Under Florida contract law, the defense of ‘impossibility’ may be asserted in situations ‘where* purposes for which the contract was made, have, on one side become impossible to perform*.’” Harvey v. Lake Buena Vista Resort, LLC, 568 F. Supp. 2d 1354 ... “*Acts of God*” and *governmental action* are among several types of business risks which implicate the impossibility defense.” ...
> Events that may make performance of the contract impossible include:_
> 
> _supervening governmental action that makes performance of the contract illegal;_



You're missing the fact that David's contract specifies the contract is governed under the laws of Canada, not Florida. So, while what you've quoted is interesting, it's not relevant to the contracts in question.


----------



## luvthatmouseinohio

rkstocke5609 said:


> All of which is why the Rental market will take a huge hit.  Would you gamble after this?  If I was going to consider renting points after this it would probably have to be $6/point (no more than whatever maintenance fees are).


I have rented points for this Thanksgiving directly from an owner here on this forum. I contacted him this week to potentially cancel the reservation because I really don’t want to go even if the parks and resorts are open. My 75 year old mom has COPD and lives with me so she’s really a high risk. The owner absolutely will not refund even part of the reservation. Said he could potentially reschedule depending on where things stand when the time grows closer. I don’t blame him, but I will definitely not take the risk of renting DVC points again since reservations at regular Disney resorts are refundable.


----------



## starry_solo

Madame said:


> Pretty sure G&S.  So renters file a charge back, he files a dispute & owners are left holding the whole empty bag...



ok. Then yes, he can show the reservation was cancelled, which is what he “paid” for....I agree, owners will be left holding the bag


----------



## TS1998a

Looks like he finally got smart and amended his contract. Here is a section from the updated sample on the site. 

"12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."


----------



## starry_solo

McCrae said:


> PayPal protection doesn’t extend to real estate transactions.


 
it goes both ways though. No seller protection. No buyer protection. Which is why if someone is paid as goods and services, the buyer can likely show services not rendered.

plus, what did David’s use as a form of payment? Credit card or PayPal balance. If it were me, I would have used a credit card as the second form of protection if/when PayPal decided to rule against me.


----------



## McCrae

starry_solo said:


> it goes both ways though. No seller protection. No buyer protection. Which is why if someone is paid as goods and services, the buyer can likely show services not rendered.
> 
> plus, what did David’s use as a form of payment? Credit card or PayPal balance. If it were me, I would have used a credit card as the second form of protection if/when PayPal decided to rule against me.


The specific point this post relates to the transaction between David’s and Owners. Renters made no Direct payment to owners.  David’s would not be able to secure repayments from owners via PayPal. In addition David’s have supplied written confirmation to Owners that providing it is Disney that has cancelled the reservation they accept the owner has completed the contract with them.


----------



## Phatscott25

After reading this I'm so glad as an owner I've only ever rented my points through the other broker.  All those contracts already specifically stated disease/pandemics in the no cancel clause.  I'm a June use year and thankfully had mostly borrowed points for a renter's April reservation and was able to help them out with a re-scheduled reservation in the fall.  But I was assured that even if I didn't, I'd still get paid my additional 25% even though the guest couldn't check in.


----------



## Madame

McCrae said:


> The specific point this post relates to the transaction between David’s and Owners. Renters made no Direct payment to owners.  David’s would not be able to secure repayments from owners via PayPal. In addition David’s have supplied written confirmation to Owners that providing it is Disney that has cancelled the reservation they accept the owner has completed the contract with them.


It would seem they’ve changed their mind about that


----------



## Sandisw

TS1998a said:


> Looks like he finally got smart and amended his contract. Here is a section from the updated sample on the site.
> 
> "12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."



What is interesting is the contract with the owner is not changed.  So, what does that mean for the owner if it happens? Do they still get the 30% regardless, or do they have to return money?


----------



## rkstocke5609

luvthatmouseinohio said:


> I have rented points for this Thanksgiving directly from an owner here on this forum. I contacted him this week to potentially cancel the reservation because I really don’t want to go even if the parks and resorts are open. My 75 year old mom had COPD and lives with me so she’s really a high risk. The owner absolutely will not refund even part of the reservation. Said he could potentially reschedule depending on where things stand when the time grows closer. I don’t blame him, but I will definitely not take the risk of renting DVC points again since reservations at regular Disney resorts are refundable.


So sorry to hear about this.  Is it possible to find another interested party in the dates and effectively “sub-lease” the reservation and have the owner change the name(s) on the reservation?  You might have to offer it at 60-70% of what you paid but if it’s allowed I would pursue something like this if it were me.


----------



## twinklebug

TS1998a said:


> Looks like he finally got smart and amended his contract. Here is a section from the updated sample on the site.
> 
> "12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."



In the past I would have read that contract, come to the "epidemic, pandemic,.... etc" part and said "yeah, they're covering all their bases, but that will never happen."

Live and learn.


----------



## cmrdgrs

twinklebug said:


> In the past I would have read that contract, come to the "epidemic, pandemic,.... etc" part and said "yeah, they're coving all their bases, but that will never happen."
> 
> Live and learn.


----------



## Krandor

TS1998a said:


> Looks like he finally got smart and amended his contract. Here is a section from the updated sample on the site.
> 
> "12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."



Wow.  I would not rent points under those terms.  Basically, in another pandemic you get a credit only under whatever terms david decides whenevrer he gets around to doing it.  Talk about a 1-way clause.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Krandor said:


> Wow.  I would not rent points under those terms.  Basically, in another pandemic you get a credit only under whatever terms david decides whenevrer he gets around to doing it.  Talk about a 1-way clause.


Not a lawyer, but in the event of this going to court, the contract might not hold up under scrutiny of a judge.  But, of course the contract also states any legal disputes have to be settled in Canada.  Since 95% of his business is probably US based... IMO, yeah ain't gonna end up in court by a US citizen.


----------



## luvthatmouseinohio

rkstocke5609 said:


> So sorry to hear about this.  Is it possible to find another interested party in the dates and effectively “sub-lease” the reservation and have the owner change the name(s) on the reservation?  You might have to offer it at 60-70% of what you paid but if it’s allowed I would pursue something like this if it were me.


That is actually a great idea and gives me something to think about. Thank you!


----------



## Dracula

rkstocke5609 said:


> So sorry to hear about this.  Is it possible to find another interested party in the dates and effectively “sub-lease” the reservation and have the owner change the name(s) on the reservation?  You might have to offer it at 60-70% of what you paid but if it’s allowed I would pursue something like this if it were me.


Yes, it is totally possible. The owner can change any guest name and address online, except for the primary guest, for which the owner would need to call DVC Member Services (good luck with that).


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Yes, it is totally possible. The owner can change any guest name and address online, except for the primary guest, for which the owner would need to call DVC Member Services (good luck with that).



It is still up to the owner, though, and they may not be willing to change the names.

But, it would be a great solution for a renter in this situation!


----------



## Matty B13

rkstocke5609 said:


> So sorry to hear about this.  Is it possible to find another interested party in the dates and effectively “sub-lease” the reservation and have the owner change the name(s) on the reservation?  You might have to offer it at 60-70% of what you paid but if it’s allowed I would pursue something like this if it were me.


I don’t think a lot of owners would agree to a sublease of a reservation.


----------



## fsjking

waltfan1957 said:


> Please don't think all UK owners are the same, regardless of David's contract I would have contacted the renters to see if we could do anything .



Don't worry, I don't. It's clearly a few bad apples here. I think most owners, regardless where they are from, will try to work with their renters and/or the broker.


----------



## davper

TS1998a said:


> Looks like he finally got smart and amended his contract. Here is a section from the updated sample on the site.
> 
> "12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."


No mention of what happens on the Owner's side of the transaction?


----------



## rkstocke5609

Sandisw said:


> It is still up to the owner, though, and they may not be willing to change the names.
> 
> But, it would be a great solution for a renter in this situation!


I’m curious.  Why would an owner be unwilling to change the name(s) on a reservation?  Just the hassle?  Or is there something I’m not considering?


----------



## Sandisw

rkstocke5609 said:


> I’m curious.  Why would an owner be unwilling to change the name(s) on a reservation?  Just the hassle?  Or is there something I’m not considering?



Some owners have a no change contract and don’t want to do a new contract, because ultimately, once names are changed, the deal is no longer with the original renters,

It really becomes a new rental. Technically once it’s changed, the original renter could then try to recover a refund and say they didn’t get the reservation paid for,


----------



## Matty B13

rkstocke5609 said:


> I’m curious.  Why would an owner be unwilling to change the name(s) on a reservation?  Just the hassle?  Or is there something I’m not considering?


If the new renter damages the room who is responsible for paying for the damages if they skip out?


----------



## rkstocke5609

Sandisw said:


> Some owners have a no change contract and don’t want to do a new contract, because ultimately, once names are changed, the deal is no longer with the original renters,
> 
> It really becomes a new rental. Technically once it’s changed, the original renter could then try to recover a refund and say they didn’t get the reservation paid for,


Ah, I get it.  You would think that potential problem could be resolved by having the original renter sign something that acknowledges they have forfeited their rights to the substitute renter that they have found - but, I am definitely no legal expert of any kind.


----------



## Krandor

davper said:


> No mention of what happens on the Owner's side of the transaction?



My bet is the new version will be the owner has to return the 70%.


----------



## Mumof4mice

Krandor said:


> My bet is the new version will be the owner has to return the 70%.



I read "each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement" to mean there is no requirement for further action by the owner.  Owners keep the points with diminished value and the ~50% payment already received as compensation.  Renters are issued travel credits.


----------



## Sandisw

rkstocke5609 said:


> Ah, I get it.  You would think that potential problem could be resolved by having the original renter sign something that acknowledges they have forfeited their rights to the substitute renter that they have found - but, I am definitely no legal expert of any kind.



Anything can happen if the owner wants to allow it, but in most cases, owners decide to make things non refundable or changeable  so they don’t have to deal with extra,

All one can do is ask the owner for options.  Some may not care and Some others might.


----------



## Sandisw

Mumof4mice said:


> I read "each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement" to mean there is no requirement for further action by the owner.  Owners keep the points with diminished value and the ~50% payment already received as compensation.  Renters are issued travel credits.



What is interesting though, as it is not included in the owner contract.  You would think it would be spelled out there as well,  Maybe that is coming


----------



## LAX

Phatscott25 said:


> After reading this I'm so glad as an owner I've only ever rented my points through the other broker.  All those contracts already specifically stated disease/pandemics in the no cancel clause.  I'm a June use year and thankfully had mostly borrowed points for a renter's April reservation and was able to help them out with a re-scheduled reservation in the fall.  But I was assured that even if I didn't, I'd still get paid my additional 25% even though the guest couldn't check in.



I have wondered why there aren't complaints about other brokers. Having their bases well covered is certainly a good reason. But, I thought the volumes at other brokers are so much lower that the few that want to complain don't even know about DIS.

LAX


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> What is interesting though, as it is not included in the owner contract.  You would think it would be spelled out there as well,  Maybe that is coming



I expect it's coming.  Is David even really renting new points right now or just dealing with the closures?


----------



## LAX

Krandor said:


> I expect it's coming.  *Is David even really renting new points* right now or just dealing with the closures?



If there are still suckers (both owners and renters) out there, I supposed he would!

LAX


----------



## Phatscott25

LAX said:


> I have wondered why there aren't complaints about other brokers. Having their bases well covered is certainly a good reason. But, I thought the volumes at other brokers are so much lower that the few that want to complain don't even know about DIS.
> 
> LAX



I wouldn't know about their volume but they appear to be a pretty big operation.  I think they're not discussed on here because they're not allowed because David used to be sponsor.  I initially went with them because they pay more pp then Davids and more upfront.  But I've had nothing but positive experiences with them and I've done quite a few rentals over the years.


----------



## ziravan

Matty B13 said:


> I don’t think a lot of owners would agree to a sublease of a reservation.


My contract explicitly forbids it. I might make an exception in this case, but I typically don’t want a middleman agreeing to terms with me and then reselling a reservation at a mark up.

Also, it opens the door to scammers to let someone use my points like that.

I don’t want someone else brokering my points. If I did, I’d have used David’s.


----------



## CraigInPA

TS1998a said:


> Looks like he finally got smart and amended his contract. Here is a section from the updated sample on the site.
> 
> "12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."



What I find interesting is that this new contract does not require the owner to refund the deposit payment (70%) in the event of a Force Majeure, but it also doesn't say that the owner gets to keep it either. It excuses the Intermediary from paying the 30% final fee, which apparently will be used to fund the "Credit" for the renter. In his email today to Owners affected by the closure, David's states that his attorney's opinion is that the Owner must re-pay the 70%. One has to wonder if the omission in the new contract is on purpose, either to not freak out owners if David's demands a refund from them, or to hide the fact that his correspondence to owners today is at odds with his latest contract.

There's no way I'd rent my points with them ever again. This is all just too shady.


----------



## McCrae

Madame said:


> It would seem they’ve changed their mind about that



Thats interesting. I have it in writing from them that my contract has been completed and that even if "my renter" succeeds with a charge back against them I will owe David's nothing.


----------



## Madame

CraigInPA said:


> What I find interesting is that this new contract does not require the owner to refund the deposit payment (70%) in the event of a Force Majeure, but it also doesn't say that the owner gets to keep it either. It excuses the Intermediary from paying the 30% final fee, which apparently will be used to fund the "Credit" for the renter. In his email today to Owners affected by the closure, David's states that his attorney's opinion is that the Owner must re-pay the 70%. One has to wonder if the omission in the new contract is on purpose, either to not freak out owners if David's demands a refund from them, or to hide the fact that his correspondence to owners today is at odds with his latest contract.
> 
> There's no way I'd rent my points with them ever again. This is all just too shady.


Either shady or completely and utterly incompetent.  Either way...


----------



## McCrae

CraigInPA said:


> What I find interesting is that this new contract does not require the owner to refund the deposit payment (70%) in the event of a Force Majeure, but it also doesn't say that the owner gets to keep it either. It excuses the Intermediary from paying the 30% final fee, which apparently will be used to fund the "Credit" for the renter. In his email today to Owners affected by the closure, David's states that his attorney's opinion is that the Owner must re-pay the 70%. One has to wonder if the omission in the new contract is on purpose, either to not freak out owners if David's demands a refund from them, or to hide the fact that his correspondence to owners today is at odds with his latest contract.
> 
> There's no way I'd rent my points with them ever again. This is all just too shady.


I didn’t receive the email  you refer to.


----------



## Madame

McCrae said:


> I didn’t receive the email  you refer to.


Me either


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Nor me. The last email I had from them regarding a rental (starting from 19th April) said "let us know when points are returned and to what use year. we will then rent them and pay the final 30% when the reservation is made which should mean a very quick turnaround for you". I'm just reluctant to make a new reservation and unsure of receiving the 30%, but anything is better than being forced to return the 70% when I just don't have it. Maybe it's because they were borrowed Aug 2020 points, so if they do go back into the correct year as DVC say they will, then they are very useful points for David to use with his credit scheme. Just a thought but maybe only owners with very distressed points are getting that email?


----------



## New Mouse

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Nor me. The last email I had from them regarding a rental (starting from 19th April) said "let us know when points are returned and to what use year. we will then rent them and pay the final 30% when the reservation is made which should mean a very quick turnaround for you". I'm just reluctant to make a new reservation and unsure of receiving the 30%, but anything is better than being forced to return the 70% when I just don't have it. Maybe it's because they were borrowed Aug 2020 points, so if they do go back into the correct year as DVC say they will, then they are very useful points for David to use with his credit scheme. Just a thought but maybe only owners with very distressed points are getting that email?



I wouldnt send anything back different than my original agreement unless a new contract and deal was initiated...  hes obviously gonna try to rent out your points at full freight and give you the 30 %


----------



## CraigInPA

McCrae said:


> I didn’t receive the email  you refer to.



Page 72 of this thread, post #1436, posted by Madame. I assumed it was an email, since Madame didn't state where it came from.


----------



## mrsmnx

Have any Davids renters gotten the email about the terms of the travel credit? Would you mind sharing the details? I had a late April reservation so the information has not been sent out yet to me yet but I would to see what they are offering.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

mrsmnx said:


> Have any Davids renters gotten the email about the terms of the travel credit? Would you mind sharing the details? I had a late April reservation so the information has not been sent out yet to me yet but I would to see what they are offering.


Nope, no travel credit email and my trip is already canceled.  So much for Thursday!


----------



## Madame

CraigInPA said:


> Page 72 of this thread, post #1436, posted by Madame. I assumed it was an email, since Madame didn't state where it came from.


Yes, but sent because I specifically told them if DVC reversed their unborrowing of points before my reservation with them was cancelled by DVC, that I would be keeping the 70% and expected the 30% paid to me & that they knew my borrowed points would expire July 31 and that they had purchased those points and had use of them until they expired. 

I don’t think it was unreasonable given that they KNOW point status when they give us a reservation to book.  And that was the response...  And that was when I decided I’d had enough.  I will already be losing a large chunk of money as I now have to pay back US funds at a vastly higher exchange rate than when I received and used the funds.  Yeah, they don’t care.  And we are fortunate enough to both have secure savings and incomes during this time, so I’ll take the hit just to get out from under this contract, no matter the status of the points.


----------



## SamRoc

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO people are trying to read exact and precise legal meaning into emails from Dave's that are meant to reassure and solve a problem.  I am pretty confident this was not reviewed by an attorney prior to Dave sending it.  It was send to me.  It is accurate and unaltered outside me removing personal information.  It asks *"if"* I would be willing to help.  No demand no threat.  They ask me not to cancel if it appear active and IMO that is pretty good advice for me and better for Dave.  I have not contacted the renter yet because I am still in the banking window.  Then Dave asks "work with us to see if there are any alternatives"
> 
> Dave does not say there has been contact with the renter and IMO the renter should make the decision on whether to gamble on Disney opening in late May/early June.  I am waiting on an answer to this question.  The idea of just returning the 70% is not developed at all.  This is not really surprising to me.  I assume it means in the event I get all my points back.  It seem evident that only a fool would expect me to send the money back if my points have vanished.  Waiting for an answer.  Yet it is an 'ask' if I am willing.  No threat and no demand.  Dave states it is a big request.
> 
> Then since I have some of the money I am asked"if" i get my points back I would re-rent them.  I presume this means without additional payment but don't know and I am waiting on a answer.
> 
> Dave specifically says the funds returned would go toward a travel credit and it would include Dave's commission.  I assume but don't know Dave would take commission on use of the voucher.
> 
> "Good afternoon [DMU],
> 
> We are reaching out to you today in regards to the XXXXXX reservation.
> As you are aware, COVID-19 has become a pandemic, and Disney Resorts and Operations has made the difficult but brave choice to close “until further notice”. The Disney Vacation Club is cancelling those reservations impacted by their decision and returning points to owner’s accounts.
> 
> As a result we are reaching out to inquire *if *you would be open to helping the XXXXXX family during this difficult time.
> 
> *Reservation #XXXXXXXXXXX
> Check in Date: May XX,2020*
> We ask, at this point, that you *do not cancel this reservation if it appears active*,but continue to work with us to see if there are any alternatives arrangements that we could pursue to assist this family.
> We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% for the XXXXX reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the XXXXXX family paid for their reservation including our commission.
> _We understand that refunding the money is not feasible for all owners, in which case would you be willing to re-rent your returned points?_By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.
> We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution.
> *Please let us know if you are willing to assist.*If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reach out.
> We look forward to hearing from you!"



We just received the same exact letter and are going over it now.


----------



## Dracula

Madame said:


> Yes, but sent because I specifically told them if DVC reversed their unborrowing of points before my reservation with them was cancelled by DVC, that I would be keeping the 70% and expected the 30% paid to me & that they knew my borrowed points would expire July 31 and that they had purchased those points and had use of them until they expired.
> 
> I don’t think it was unreasonable given that they KNOW point status when they give us a reservation to book.  And that was the response...  And that was when I decided I’d had enough.  I will already be losing a large chunk of money as I now have to pay back US funds at a vastly higher exchange rate than when I received and used the funds.  Yeah, they don’t care.  And we are fortunate enough to both have secure savings and incomes during this time, so I’ll take the hit just to get out from under this contract, no matter the status of the points.


Why do you want to make it even harder on yourself by returning the 70% with the lower CAD exchange rate? Just play along, offer to re-rent the points if possible; if the points expire, you keep the 70%; if you get a chance to re-rent, you get the rest of 30%. You don't even need to stress out over it, David would let you know when your points are needed.


----------



## momincolorado

mrsmnx said:


> Have any Davids renters gotten the email about the terms of the travel credit? Would you mind sharing the details? I had a late April reservation so the information has not been sent out yet to me yet but I would to see what they are offering.



Late March reservation for us, no e-mail. I doubt they will have much to offer unless owners are actually willing to work with them. And from what I’m seeing on this thread, they are not exactly doing their best to maintain a decent working relationship with owners. I personally think that chargeback is the way to go here.


----------



## Sandisw

[QUOTE="Phatscott25 said:


> I wouldn't know about their volume but they appear to be a pretty big operation.  I think they're not discussed on here because they're not allowed because David used to be sponsor.  I initially went with them because they pay more pp then Davids and more upfront.  But I've had nothing but positive experiences with them and I've done quite a few rentals over the years.



Please refer to this in regards to DIS policies about businesses.
DIS guidelines


----------



## Madame

Dracula said:


> Why do you want to make it even harder on yourself by returning the 70% with the lower CAD exchange rate? Just play along, offer to re-rent the points if possible; if the points expire, you keep the 70%; if you get a chance to re-rent, you get the rest of 30%. You don't even need to stress out over it, David would let you know when your points are needed.


If I needed the money, I would.  If this is the price I need to pay to get this off my plate, then so be it.  However the lesson has been learned; I’m a fool me once, never again person.  

I think if it were substantially more points I might feel differently, but at 52 points, I’ll write it off as a bad experience hopefully soon to be a bad memory.


----------



## disney4me4ever

I know one thing...I will never rent points again. We rented points last July with David’s; they are APR 2020 use year, so we’re ok that way. But I don’t like the thought of entering into *another* contract with Davids, since the original one was basically meaningless. The ppl who rented the points want to travel again, but outside our use year, so we can’t really help them with a new ressie, unless I borrowed points. I’ve agonized so much over all of this, I really would like to just forfeit the 30% and walk away. Instead of re-renting the original points to David’s, I’d rather donate them to a nurse who is working in a COVID unit. If anyone deserves some Disney Magic, they do. What a mess.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Yes frustration of purpose is close to and often mistaken for impossibility.  Since they are not generally self standing lawsuits they are further confused.  Both are remedies for a breach of contract lawsuit.  Both are also not remedies at law but at equity.  Since they are equity remedies the mitigation of damages would/will play a vital role.

Here is where the destiny of the points becomes more important.  If the points are gone then the hit will not go to the owner.  If the points are safe the owner will not be allowed to double dip.


I would love to see the rest of this or the source documents.



Madame said:


> People need to wake up.
> Per their lawyers:
> View attachment 488399


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Cases filed in FL will be heard in FL pursuant to FL choice of law and venue provision.  IMO there is no way a FL judge allows this to leave FL.  The real estate is in FL.  Most transaction were in FL.  As you posted a few days ago, LAW controls CONTRACTS.



CraigInPA said:


> You're missing the fact that David's contract specifies the contract is governed under the laws of Canada, not Florida. So, while what you've quoted is interesting, it's not relevant to the contracts in question.


----------



## GoingSince1990

I know the subject of this thread is David's but I have rented points out for an early June reservation through another leading broker, and this is the email I just received from them, which I thought some might be interested in for comparison:

_Hi (my name),
The global pandemic known as the corona virus has recently affected every aspect of everyone’s daily life. Due to the pandemic, Disneyland and Disney World closed the parks indefinitely. Many people have vacations that have been affected. We are currently working with these guests to ensure that everything is done to have the best outcome possible for everyone. One of your guests has been affected and needs your help. We are sorry to put this additional burden on you, but this is uncharted territory for all of us.
The guests are considering postponing their trip, and were wondering what your home resort is when your points expire so they can find a travel date before then.
Rest assured per your agreement, no matter what the outcome, the intermediary agreement will be honored and all funds due to you will be paid. We appreciate your help with this matter.
Thank you,_

A friendly and reasonable request and I replied that of course I'm happy to do anything I can to help with rescheduling the trip.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

As I posted earlier my renter is for the end of May.  I have not received this email.  Of course I still have not received a response to my email with questions to Dave either.

Clearly Dave is playing from behind, not doing it well, not anticipating problems or taking into account that what happens to the points, or the value of the points is going to be the most important part of any lawsuit.

I have never checked the price of filing in Canada or service but I really don't see him being able sue all these individuals nor do I see him attempting to bootstrap individual owners by filing against Disney.



CraigInPA said:


> What I find interesting is that this new contract does not require the owner to refund the deposit payment (70%) in the event of a Force Majeure, but it also doesn't say that the owner gets to keep it either. It excuses the Intermediary from paying the 30% final fee, which apparently will be used to fund the "Credit" for the renter. In his email today to Owners affected by the closure, David's states that his attorney's opinion is that the Owner must re-pay the 70%. One has to wonder if the omission in the new contract is on purpose, either to not freak out owners if David's demands a refund from them, or to hide the fact that his correspondence to owners today is at odds with his latest contract.
> 
> There's no way I'd rent my points with them ever again. This is all just too shady.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

It would be great if you could post that.



McCrae said:


> Thats interesting. I have it in writing from them that my contract has been completed and that even if "my renter" succeeds with a charge back against them I will owe David's nothing.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Yes frustration of purpose is close to and often mistaken for impossibility.  Since they are not generally self standing lawsuits they are further confused.  Both are remedies for a breach of contract lawsuit.  Both are also not remedies at law but at equity.  Since they are equity remedies the mitigation of damages would/will play a vital role.
> 
> Here is where the destiny of the points becomes more important.  If the points are gone then the hit will not go to the owner.  If the points are safe the owner will not be allowed to double dip.
> 
> 
> I would love to see the rest of this or the source documents.



The approach David’s are taking appear to contradict the document on advice posted. David’s request to let them re-rent points to another renter and not the original renter  could if the legal advice is correct create a position where points have been re-rented and the owner still has an obligation to the original renter.


----------



## Madame

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Yes frustration of purpose is close to and often mistaken for impossibility.  Since they are not generally self standing lawsuits they are further confused.  Both are remedies for a breach of contract lawsuit.  Both are also not remedies at law but at equity.  Since they are equity remedies the mitigation of damages would/will play a vital role.
> 
> Here is where the destiny of the points becomes more important.  If the points are gone then the hit will not go to the owner.  If the points are safe the owner will not be allowed to double dip.
> 
> 
> I would love to see the rest of this or the source documents.


I’ve been around these boards a while.  Most times I am annoyingly forthright, sometimes a ridiculous SJW and a bit of a drama queen (I’m French speaking, it comes with the territory ).  I am *not* known to be a disseminator of misinformation.  All that said, just so that we know where we stand.  

I have no idea which doc this info they inserted into their email to me came from.  I don’t believe the lawyers are timeshare-specific lawyers.  I would be interested in knowing how much the law firm understands about points/UY timeshares, & specifically if they understand that David’s knows the precise expiration date & limitation of every point they “buy.”


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> It would be great if you could post that.


I would like, but I won’t because it could be used to identify me.

i asked specific questions in connection to contract completion, liability to David’s and what my liability would be in the renter either took court action or succeeded in a credit card charge back. I received in writing confirmaction from David’s that I would no future liability. Any credit card back or Court action would be against David’s and not the owner.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

It does get complicated quite quickly doesn't it?

Yet I am not sure which advice you mean, so much has been offered on different 'side or povs'.  I am not posting advice I am trying to ask questions and clarify my own thinking.  When I joined to board it was to become better informed and get other views on what I could/should/would do.  That has been accomplished.  Even in disagreement there are lots of top opinions here.

I see Dave as being generally consistent.  After the 'check in' date (what ever that means) is past then things change.  Suing prior to the breach, an anticipatory breach is not really a great idea.  Yet if I lived in FL and if I lost value on my points I might to that just to have a filing date prior to any filing date of Dave while we wait to see what happens.  I am not sure I would agree Dave has that option.  Their Company is at stake and getting to agree to help nicely, or getting help with a veiled threat (sent only it seems to people who are past the 'check in day') makes sense to me. I would not do it but I can understand and acknowledge it is rational, maybe legal for Dave to do.

I have not received anything from Dave about re-renting points to someone other than than original/current renter.  And that is in an email asking for help.



McCrae said:


> The approach David’s are taking appear to contradict the document on advice posted. David’s request to let them re-rent points to another renter and not the original renter  could if the legal advice is correct create a position where points have been re-rented and the owner still has an obligation to the original renter.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

You have nailed it here.  Great post to think about.  

At some time when I am bored I might google Dave's attorney and post what I find.  As opposed to Dave and his attorney's we have the Disney gorilla who has attorney's that are not only experienced with these things but experienced enough to know they don't need empty threats or innuendo.  I am not sure Disney attorney's would allow a statement like the statement from Dave you posted to be disseminated without clearing it in advance.

I think it is highly unlikely those guys are time share much less FL time share.  Fl real estate law.  As I posted a couple of weeks ago choice of law, jurisdiction and venue are highly fact specific and complicated.  IMO it would take an experienced and practicing attorney hours to just put a draft together.  Clearly nobody is doing that for free. 

I don't see anyway Dave would go after Disney.   I don't expect Disney to allow any actions that would precipitate a class action into which Dave or someone else might jump.  But I also firmly believe Disney will find a solution I think is fair.  they always have (DVC wise/resort wise/restuarant wise) in every thing in which we have interacted.

Yet I would still file in Fl and not serve the lawsuit just to protect myself if I was in the (as of today) people at risk.  I can't explain why but I feel that who files first files best.



Madame said:


> I’ve been around these boards a while.  Most times I am annoyingly forthright, sometimes a ridiculous SJW and a bit of a drama queen (I’m French speaking, it comes with the territory ).  I am *not* known to be a disseminator of misinformation.  All that said, just so that we know where we stand.
> 
> I have no idea which doc this info they inserted into their email to me came from.  I don’t believe the lawyers are timeshare-specific lawyers.  I would be interested in knowing how much the law firm understands about points/UY timeshares, & specifically if they understand that David’s knows the precise expiration date & limitation of every point they “buy.”


----------



## AaronEuth

GoingSince1990 said:


> I know the subject of this thread is David's but I have rented points out for an early June reservation through another leading broker, and this is the email I just received from them, which I thought some might be interested in for comparison:
> 
> _Hi (my name),
> The global pandemic known as the corona virus has recently affected every aspect of everyone’s daily life. Due to the pandemic, Disneyland and Disney World closed the parks indefinitely. Many people have vacations that have been affected. We are currently working with these guests to ensure that everything is done to have the best outcome possible for everyone. One of your guests has been affected and needs your help. We are sorry to put this additional burden on you, but this is uncharted territory for all of us.
> The guests are considering postponing their trip, and were wondering what your home resort is when your points expire so they can find a travel date before then.
> Rest assured per your agreement, no matter what the outcome, the intermediary agreement will be honored and all funds due to you will be paid. We appreciate your help with this matter.
> Thank you,_
> 
> A friendly and reasonable request and I replied that of course I'm happy to do anything I can to help with rescheduling the trip.



I reached out to my October renter and gave them the details of the points expiring at the end of July 2021 (edited to correct year). I let them know I would be happy to rebook if they want new dates but the sooner they let me know the more options they will have in regards to availability.

I explained we would have to do everything through the broker but made it clear any resistance to change was not in my end.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> It does get complicated quite quickly doesn't it?
> 
> Yet I am not sure which advice you mean, so much has been offered on different 'side or povs'.  I am not posting advice I am trying to ask questions and clarify my own thinking.  When I joined to board it was to become better informed and get other views on what I could/should/would do.  That has been accomplished.  Even in disagreement there are lots of top opinions here.
> 
> I see Dave as being generally consistent.  After the 'check in' date (what ever that means) is past then things change.  Suing prior to the breach, an anticipatory breach is not really a great idea.  Yet if I lived in FL and if I lost value on my points I might to that just to have a filing date prior to any filing date of Dave while we wait to see what happens.  I am not sure I would agree Dave has that option.  Their Company is at stake and getting to agree to help nicely, or getting help with a veiled threat (sent only it seems to people who are past the 'check in day') makes sense to me. I would not do it but I can understand and acknowledge it is rational, maybe legal for Dave to do.
> 
> I have not received anything from Dave about re-renting points to someone other than than original/current renter.  And that is in an email asking for help.



Just to clarify I am not referring to you giving advice. I  meant the legal opinion that you had attached in a previous response.

My reservation was 2 weeks ago.  David’s have also made it clear in correspondence to me that any help I give would be voluntary.


----------



## CarolMN

Phatscott25 said:


> I wouldn't know about their volume but they appear to be a pretty big operation.  I think they're not discussed on here because they're not allowed because David used to be sponsor.  ...(snip).....


*100% NOT true*.  Sponsors have no input into what other businesses may be discussed on the DIS.    Please do not spread this incorrect information.   This is from the pinned thread at the top of every DIS DVC forum:

*From the DIS Guidelines:*

*7. ADVERTISING

The advertisers/sponsors who you see on the DIS are carefully chosen. ...

We do welcome discussion of DIS advertisers/sponsors as well as other businesses that you have information or questions about. ...............(snip)............

Suggestion that DIS advertisers and sponsors have influence over how the forums are run is far from the truth. They are provided advertising space on the DIS and, if they have registered usernames, will have an "Approved Advertiser" icon in their profile. Otherwise, they play no role in what may be posted on the DIS about them or their competitors.

From the DIS Guidelines:

FILTERED WORDS, NAMES and URLS

The DIS is a privately owned web site and we reserve the right to restrict any outside commercial ventures at our discretion. We will not discuss the reasons behind why specific websites are filtered and any discussion regarding the word filter may be deleted.

Here are some of the DVC resale brokers often mentioned on the DIS:

The Timeshare Store (a DIS sponsor) - http://www.dvc-resales.com
Fidelity Resales - http://fidelityresales.com/
DVC by Resale - http://www.dvcbyresale.com/
Selling Timeshares - http://www.sellingtimeshares.net
DVC Magic Resales - http://www.DVCmagicresales.com
DVC Resale Market - http://www.dvcresalemarket.com/

Here are few other options for DVC resale purchases:

Timeshare Users Group - http://www.tug2.net (Also a great resource for information about other Timeshare programs)
Timesharing Today - http://www.tstoday.com
Redweek - http://www.redweek.com
Ebay - http://www.ebay.com

...and here are some other sites frequently posted on the DIS DVC Forums:
Owners Locker - http://www.ownerslocker.com
DVC Request - http://www.DVCrequest.com
DVC News - DVCNews.com

If you wish to promote a business or site not mentioned in this post or without posting a link, please recognize that you will be doing so at your own risk.*

*Thanks in advance for your cooperation. *


----------



## Galun

Madame said:


> I have no idea which doc this info they inserted into their email to me came from.  I don’t believe the lawyers are timeshare-specific lawyers.  I would be interested in knowing how much the law firm understands about points/UY timeshares, & specifically if they understand that David’s knows the precise expiration date & limitation of every point they “buy.”



They just said they had their "lawyer" look at it.  Which means nothing.  I can say I have my "lawyer" look at it and thinks that the intermediary breached the contract and I get to keep both the 70% and the points.

It only matters if they really try to sue you.  If they do try it, pretty soon they will go out of business because owners will find out and they won't have points to broker anymore.  Oh, and if they try to sue you, good luck doing it from Canada, filing to individual owners all over the world, and then try to collect if they somehow win.

It's an empty threat.  Actually, it's not really a threat.  They simply stated that their lawyers looked at it (which you may interpret as expert opinion), and hope that you will voluntarily return the money. Don't stress over it.  If I were you I'd just ignore it.


----------



## starry_solo

Galun said:


> They just said they had their "lawyer" look at it.  Which means nothing.  I can say I have my "lawyer" look at it and thinks that the intermediary breached the contract and I get to keep both the 70% and the points.
> 
> It only matters if they really try to sue you.  If they do try it, pretty soon they will go out of business because owners will find out and they won't have points to broker anymore.  Oh, and if they try to sue you, good luck doing it from Canada, filing to individual owners all over the world, and then try to collect if they somehow win.
> 
> It's an empty threat.  Don't stress over it.  If I were you I'd just ignore it.



They aren't required to file in Canada, where they are based.

Quote from contract:
11. This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.  All parties hereto agree to submit to the *non-exclusive jurisdiction *of the courts of Ontario with respect to any disputes relating to, or legal actions brought in respect of, any matters under this agreement. 

So, they could, hypothetically file numerous small claims lawsuits (filing fee isn't that much) in the county where the owners are and use the law of Canada (since that was agreed to by the parties).  Of course, who knows that the laws of the Province of Ontario and Canada are in connection with this...

Small claims court could allow parties to appear telephonically.  I'm a member of other forums and groups and there was a dispute over payment for services rendered (transaction done via Facebook) between two pin traders.  The unhappy pin trader filed the small claims action electronically in the county where the other pin trader was located and the whole action occurred via telephone.  So, it can be done.  Will it?


----------



## Galun

starry_solo said:


> They aren't required to file in Canada, where they are based.
> 
> Quote from contract:
> 11. This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.  All parties hereto agree to submit to the *non-exclusive jurisdiction *of the courts of Ontario with respect to any disputes relating to, or legal actions brought in respect of, any matters under this agreement.
> 
> So, they could, hypothetically file numerous small claims lawsuits (filing fee isn't that much) in the county where the owners are and use the law of Canada (since that was agreed to by the parties).  Of course, who knows that the laws of the Province of Ontario and Canada are in connection with this...
> 
> Small claims court could allow parties to appear telephonically.  I'm a member of other forums and groups and there was a dispute over payment for services rendered (transaction done via Facebook) between two pin traders.  The unhappy pin trader filed the small claims action electronically in the county where the other pin trader was located and the whole action occurred via telephone.  So, it can be done.  Will it?



Yes, my wording was unclear.  I meant filing from Canada remotely to possibly hundreds to thousands of jurisdictions (if they claim they have 2000 affected reservations and growing). And collection will still be an issue.

The moment news gets out that they are filing in small claims causing owners even the slightest bit of further aggravation, their business is done (if it isn't already), so I don't think they will do it.  All they will do is continue to ask nicely, hinting that their lawyers looked at it and what not.  I do maintain this opinion.


----------



## McCrae

starry_solo said:


> They aren't required to file in Canada, where they are based.
> 
> Quote from contract:
> 11. This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.  All parties hereto agree to submit to the *non-exclusive jurisdiction *of the courts of Ontario with respect to any disputes relating to, or legal actions brought in respect of, any matters under this agreement.
> 
> So, they could, hypothetically file numerous small claims lawsuits (filing fee isn't that much) in the county where the owners are and use the law of Canada (since that was agreed to by the parties).  Of course, who knows that the laws of the Province of Ontario and Canada are in connection with this...
> 
> Small claims court could allow parties to appear telephonically.  I'm a member of other forums and groups and there was a dispute over payment for services rendered (transaction done via Facebook) between two pin traders.  The unhappy pin trader filed the small claims action electronically in the county where the other pin trader was located and the whole action occurred via telephone.  So, it can be done.  Will it?


i would bet that whilst this is a sensible option very few courts would act this way.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> It is still up to the owner, though, and they may not be willing to change the names.
> 
> But, it would be a great solution for a renter in this situation!


I know this is off topic, but since others have chimed in, hopefully the owner will be reasonable.

More on topic though, this is another thing renters should look for in a rental agreement with a broker.  Will the broker allow a "sublease" -- I have seen posts in the past that brokers won't allow a sublease (why I don't know).  For me, another deal breaker for using a broker for a rental.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I know this is off topic, but since others have chimed in, hopefully the owner will be reasonable.
> 
> More on topic though, this is another thing renters should look for in a rental agreement with a broker.  Will the broker allow a "sublease" -- I have seen posts in the past that brokers won't allow a sublease (why I don't know).  For me, another deal breaker for using a broker for a rental.



My agreement with broker does not allow sublease. If I rented on my own, I would also not allow a sublease.


----------



## ziravan

GoingSince1990 said:


> I know the subject of this thread is David's but I have rented points out for an early June reservation through another leading broker, and this is the email I just received from them, which I thought some might be interested in for comparison:
> 
> _Hi (my name),
> The global pandemic known as the corona virus has recently affected every aspect of everyone’s daily life. Due to the pandemic, Disneyland and Disney World closed the parks indefinitely. Many people have vacations that have been affected. We are currently working with these guests to ensure that everything is done to have the best outcome possible for everyone. One of your guests has been affected and needs your help. We are sorry to put this additional burden on you, but this is uncharted territory for all of us.
> The guests are considering postponing their trip, and were wondering what your home resort is when your points expire so they can find a travel date before then.
> Rest assured per your agreement, no matter what the outcome, the intermediary agreement will be honored and all funds due to you will be paid. We appreciate your help with this matter.
> Thank you,_
> 
> A friendly and reasonable request and I replied that of course I'm happy to do anything I can to help with rescheduling the trip.


I would have bent over backwards to honor such a request. I did honor that same request with my current affected renter. In this case, the broker has asked for help directly related to both the issue at hand and my particular renter.

David’s started out this way asking owners to “listen to their hearts” but he has moved on to using the threat of lawyers as a coercion prop.

By and large most owners want to help out, and most renters I think would be reasonable about finding a solution. Had David’s matched up as many of them as possible, the outliers would have been more manageable and he probably would have been able to save his business.

Now, he’s just encouraged otherwise willing owners to dig in their heels and otherwise willing renters to call their CC companies seeking redress they won’t find at David’s.


----------



## CraigInPA

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Cases filed in FL will be heard in FL pursuant to FL choice of law and venue provision.  IMO there is no way a FL judge allows this to leave FL.  The real estate is in FL.  Most transaction were in FL.  As you posted a few days ago, LAW controls CONTRACTS.



So, David's is going to engage an attorney in Florida who will file a suit in Florida, despite the venue specified in the contract to be litigated is Canada? Unless the renter or owner is also in Florida, I think the Judge in Florida would be convinced that David's is venue shopping against his own contract, and dismiss the suit after the first motion to change venue.


----------



## CraigInPA

starry_solo said:


> They aren't required to file in Canada, where they are based.
> 
> Quote from contract:
> 11. This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.  All parties hereto agree to submit to the *non-exclusive jurisdiction *of the courts of Ontario with respect to any disputes relating to, or legal actions brought in respect of, any matters under this agreement.



I doubt that any small claims court (or any court for that matter) in the US would accept a filing from a Canadian corporation which requires the decision to be based upon the laws of the Province of Ontario and Canada. I suppose it is possible that his arguments could be based upon Canadian law, and not Ontario law, which would allow him to file elsewhere in Canada, but filing in the US puts the choice of law to US law.


----------



## Galun

GoingSince1990 said:


> I know the subject of this thread is David's but I have rented points out for an early June reservation through another leading broker, and this is the email I just received from them, which I thought some might be interested in for comparison:
> 
> _Hi (my name),
> The global pandemic known as the corona virus has recently affected every aspect of everyone’s daily life. Due to the pandemic, Disneyland and Disney World closed the parks indefinitely. Many people have vacations that have been affected. We are currently working with these guests to ensure that everything is done to have the best outcome possible for everyone. One of your guests has been affected and needs your help. We are sorry to put this additional burden on you, but this is uncharted territory for all of us.
> The guests are considering postponing their trip, and were wondering what your home resort is when your points expire so they can find a travel date before then.
> Rest assured per your agreement, no matter what the outcome, the intermediary agreement will be honored and all funds due to you will be paid. We appreciate your help with this matter.
> Thank you,_
> 
> A friendly and reasonable request and I replied that of course I'm happy to do anything I can to help with rescheduling the trip.



Do you mind sharing which broker this is?  I think you can name brokers, as we are freely discussing Davids here.

If this was the broker’s approach from the very beginning, I am going to consider renting out my points through them in the future.


----------



## Sandisw

Galun said:


> Do you mind sharing which broker this is?  I think you can name brokers, as we are freely discussing Davids here.
> 
> If this was the broker’s approach from the very beginning, I am going to consider renting out my points through them in the future.



As long as the link to the broker is shared, and not just the name.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

While I usually follow your posts I am lost here.
How does a small claims or other US court 'accept' or 'not accept' a filed case?

So no matter who files you agree that filing in FL - a non exclusive jurisdiction - would replace Canadian and/or Ontario law with US law/



CraigInPA said:


> I doubt that any small claims court (or any court for that matter) in the US would accept a filing from a Canadian corporation which requires the decision to be based upon the laws of the Province of Ontario and Canada. I suppose it is possible that his arguments could be based upon Canadian law, and not Ontario law, which would allow him to file elsewhere in Canada, but* filing in the US puts the choice of law to US law*.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

ziravan said:


> David’s started out this way asking owners to “listen to their hearts” but he has moved on to using the threat of lawyers as a coercion prop.


This doesn't bode well for retaining any goodwill with owners for possible future business (assuming any can even be salvaged at this point).


----------



## Marionnette

Grumpy by Birth said:


> This doesn't bode well for retaining any goodwill with owners for possible future business (assuming any can even be salvaged at this point).


That’s for sure! I‘m probably not the only one to have bookmarked this thread so that I can link to it in later discussions.


----------



## JBwahoo

Phatscott25 said:


> After reading this I'm so glad as an owner I've only ever rented my points through the other broker.  All those contracts already specifically stated disease/pandemics in the no cancel clause.  I'm a June use year and thankfully had mostly borrowed points for a renter's April reservation and was able to help them out with a re-scheduled reservation in the fall.  But I was assured that even if I didn't, I'd still get paid my additional 25% even though the guest couldn't check in.



I think this may be the clause to which you are referring:

"[Broker] or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the [Broker]'s or the Member's control."

Not a lawyer, though my read of this passage is that it is general liability re: don't try to sue us if you get sick while on your trip or if the monorail isn't working.  This does not appear to be a force majeure clause, and certainly doesn't explicitly cover what happens if the broker is unable to provide the contracted service.  Especially considering the next passage begins "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member..."  

I don't believe this will absolve them from not being able to deliver on the contract in a similar manner being discussed regarding David's and they'll face the same risks on chargebacks.  I'd suspect there is less complaining here as this is an owner heavy part of the board, and from what I can tell this broker is still trying to make owners whole.


----------



## merry_nbright

disney4me4ever said:


> I know one thing...I will never rent points again. We rented points last July with David’s; they are APR 2020 use year, so we’re ok that way. But I don’t like the thought of entering into *another* contract with Davids, since the original one was basically meaningless. The ppl who rented the points want to travel again, but outside our use year, so we can’t really help them with a new ressie, unless I borrowed points. I’ve agonized so much over all of this, I really would like to just forfeit the 30% and walk away. Instead of re-renting the original points to David’s, I’d rather donate them to a nurse who is working in a COVID unit. If anyone deserves some Disney Magic, they do. What a mess.



I’m a nanny for two doctors. One pediatrician, one is working in the ICU. It’s REALLY rough out there. I’ve never seen my boss so worn down. They really DO deserve it.


----------



## Galun

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> While I usually follow your posts I am lost here.
> How does a small claims or other US court 'accept' or 'not accept' a filed case?
> 
> So no matter who files you agree that filing in FL - a non exclusive jurisdiction - would replace Canadian and/or Ontario law with US law/



The amounts we are talking about for reservation is probably a couple thousand each.  Solidly small claims court territory.  My understanding is that small claims in the US is basically a state law, and has to be filed in the county where the defendant reside, generally speaking.

I'd think it's cost prohibitive for David's to file hundreds or thousands of small claims, hire process servers to serve the defendant, and physically appear as plaintiff.  Not gonna happen.  Best he can do is to hold on to the 30% he has not released yet, then you as the owner has to go sue him to get it back (if he won't volunteer to give it back to you).  

I personally don't read his mentioning of lawyer as a threat, but some owners will see it that way and send money back.  He is in survival mode.  I don't think goodwill matters when you don't know if you are a going concern.


----------



## New Mouse

SamRoc said:


> We just received the same exact letter and are going over it now.



So you give us back cash....and we give the renter a gift certificate? How does that make sense.


----------



## Amymouse13

New Mouse said:


> So you give us back cash....and we give the renter a gift certificate? How does that make sense.



And why renters are like bye Felicia... Chargebacks please.  He might as well offer Monopoly money.

Makes great sense for him, get 70% back in cash, keep 30%, give renter empty promises... And when they happily sign the voucher they sign away their rights if Disney is still closed or closes again...


----------



## Yinn

New Mouse said:


> So you give us back cash....and we give the renter a gift certificate? How does that make sense.



Just hear me out. It’s a new business idea.

From here on out, when you’re looking for a DVC rental we’re going to need full payment upfront. If we don’t have a match, we’ll issue you a voucher for when we have the points available.

For owners, on the day of check in, we’ll give you an IOU and a commission free rental on your next rental.

it’ll work. Trust me


----------



## DGsAtBLT

disneykins said:


> I understand David might be deleting negative posts. But when I see 100% positive posts there and 100% negative posts somewhere else, I wonder if both are deleting what suits them. Remember, the other major rental company is owned by these boards and I'm not seeing anything negative about them. Just saying.



I appreciate a good scandal, but as someone who has been following most rental threads that have popped up very closely and had a vested interest in this, there has occasionally been positive comments made about David’s, they have not been deleted to make DVC store (that’s the sponsor one, right?) look better as you’re implying. They’re just few and far (FAR!) between since there really is not much good to say at this point.

Again as someone with a vested interest I have also closely been watching Davids Facebook page. They have deleted countless “negative” comments. Most are not even negative, just asking the hard questions they don’t want to answer publicly. They also disabled their entire review portion of their page after it was being filled with negative review after negative review. I believe I counted about 10 in a row before they disabled them and this was mid March I believe, so before all this really sunk in.

Okay, now back to my catching up on this thread. I’m a little behind so I may be repeating someone else.


----------



## LAX

ziravan said:


> I would have bent over backwards to honor such a request. I did honor that same request with my current affected renter. In this case, the broker has asked for help directly related to both the issue at hand and my particular renter.
> 
> David’s started out this way asking owners to “listen to their hearts” but he has moved on to using the threat of lawyers as a coercion prop.
> 
> By and large most owners want to help out, and most renters I think would be reasonable about finding a solution. Had David’s matched up as many of them as possible, the outliers would have been more manageable and he probably would have been able to save his business.
> 
> Now, he’s just encouraged otherwise willing owners to dig in their heels and otherwise willing renters to call their CC companies seeking redress they won’t find at David’s.



IMHO, David's first misstep in handling this situation was unilaterally withholding the 30% of payment from owners on reservations during the initial phase of closure. That happened despite of a prominent claim on his website that "owners get paid regardless of whether the renters check in or not" (paraphrase). Now I understand the difference between not having a reservation for renters to check in vs. renters not checking in voluntarily, but it's immaterial to the owners.

If David's were to make the payment as promised and then followed up with a request to help out those affected by closure, I honestly think the response from most owners would be much different. Instead, there is now so much distrust between the owners and David's that even if the voucher system were to work if enough owners cooperated, it won't play out because owners have been put in such defensive position that all they can think about are either to dig themselves out of this mess and/or try helping out their hapless renters.

LAX


----------



## Amymouse13

LAX said:


> IMHO, David's first misstep in handling this situation was unilaterally withholding the 30% of payment from owners on reservations during the initial phase of closure. That happened despite of a prominent claim on his website that "owners get paid regardless of whether the renters check in or not" (paraphrase). Now I understand the difference between not having a reservation for renters to check in vs. renters not checking in voluntarily, but it's immaterial to the owners.
> 
> If David's were to make the payment as promised and then followed up with a request to help out those affected by closure, I honestly think the response from most owners would be much different. Instead, there is now so much distrust between the owners and David's that even if the voucher system were to work if enough owners cooperated, it won't play out because owners have been put in such defensive position that all they can think about are either to dig themselves out of this mess and/or try helping out their hapless renters.
> 
> LAX



Well yeah, they have seemed to change course over and over, so like maybe they should have consulted with a real lawyer before saying anything...


----------



## CarolMN

disneykins said:


> I understand David might be deleting negative posts. But when I see 100% positive posts there and 100% negative posts somewhere else, I wonder if both are deleting what suits them. Remember, the other major rental company is owned by these boards and I'm not seeing anything negative about them. Just saying.



No one on the DIS is deleting posts about the DIS DVC Boards sponsor. Your implication is unfounded. 

*As a DVC Mod, I very much resent the implication*!  If you ever bothered to read the pinned threads, you'd know that the DIS advertisers have no influence over how the boards are run.

To the best of my recollection, this is the only recent  thread that asked about the DVC Store (aka The Timeshare Store):

DVC Rentals through the DVC Store- Anyone Been Impacted?

None of the replies to that thread have been deleted.

The only posts that are ever deleted from the DIS are the ones that violate the Posting Guidelines.


----------



## LAX

Amymouse13 said:


> Well yeah, they have seemed to change course over and over, so like maybe they should have consulted with a real lawyer before saying anything...



I honestly think a real lawyer would not have made much of a difference other than may be help him avoid sending those bonehead emails to some owners demanding return of payments. What he needed was some goodwill/luck to convince enough owners to bail him out. It may be difficult for owners that would end up getting stuck with expiring points, but there may be just enough salvageable points to make his voucher system work.

If owners knew he/she would be getting the 30% payment, I imagine many would be much more open to adjusting reservations to help out. He first whiffed with the contract. Then, he whiffed on handling of this situation. One more strike and he is out (maybe he is already on his way back to to dugout or perhaps out of the stadium!).

LAX


----------



## Sandisw

CarolMN said:


> No one on the DIS is deleting posts about the DIS DVC Boards sponsor. Your implication is unfounded.
> 
> *As a DVC Mod, I very much resent the implication*!  If you ever bothered to read the pinned threads, you'd know that the DIS advertisers have no influence over how the boards are run.
> 
> To the best of my recollection, this is the only recent  thread that asked about the DVC Store (aka The Timeshare Store):
> 
> DVC Rentals through the DVC Store- Anyone Been Impacted?
> 
> None of the replies to that thread have been deleted.
> 
> The only posts that are ever deleted from the DIS are the ones that violate the Posting Guidelines.



Agree!


----------



## CraigInPA

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> While I usually follow your posts I am lost here.
> How does a small claims or other US court 'accept' or 'not accept' a filed case?
> 
> So no matter who files you agree that filing in FL - a non exclusive jurisdiction - would replace Canadian and/or Ontario law with US law/



When one goes to the courthouse to file a case, the clerk of the court will ascertain whether you are filing in the correct venue. For example, in small claims there is a maximum amount of money that can be the basis of the suit. If you go over that, you need to go to common pleas. For international disputes, you need to go to a Federal court. I think it's highly unlikely that the US clerk would accept a case which specifies that the law to be followed is the law of Ontario and Canada, because that is what is specified in the contract. Even if the clerk accepted it, the defendant would merely have to file an objection to venue and choice of law, and the judge would summarily dismiss the case. No US judge is going to hear a case based upon Canadian law, and cannot enforce a contract based upon the supposition that US and Canadian laws are substantively similar and therefore the change of venue is inconsequential. If both parties agree to amend the contract to allow it to be heard in a US court, that changes the situation. However, I don't see any defendant making it easier for the plaintiff to sue him.

No, I do not agree. The contract is specific whose laws are to be followed. The next sentence provides the non-exclusive jurisdiction. They are separate. It's merely a guess, but I believe the non-exclusive jurisdiction clause was put in there to allow David's to file against other Canadians in small claims courts anywhere in Canada.


----------



## ziravan

I only have 3 rentals this year. One was for April that has been rescheduled for Fall. One in the Fall (which I’ve already rescheduled because her child scheduled a wedding during her original booking). And one for early June.

Early June owner reached out and asked to cancel/refund today. Doesn’t believe park will be open and doesn’t want it hanging over her during a bad time. My contract says no refunds. Points are June UY points at the beginning of their year. I told her I’d give her a full refund.

For years, I’ve argued that a private owner with whom you have a good relationship is more secure than a broker because a private owner can afford to be more flexible and flexibility matters, more so when things go sideways. I feel fairly vindicated on that point.

(I’m not looking for new renters, for the record. I have another frequent renter already put dibs on those points if I don’t use them myself, which I probably will.)


----------



## Marionnette

Bearval said:


> *David's DVC is most likely set up as an LLC* which means only the company assets are at risk (none of the owners property can be seized or taken to repay debt) , since this company does not manufacture any product and most likely only consists of employees, leased office space and equipment the only real asset of any value would be David's Goodwill.  Right now his company is trying to maneuver thru this to save the goodwill since if it declares bankruptcy they will have to start from scratch and build the business back up which has taken them years to get to where they are now.


According to the BBB, David’s Vacation Club Rentals (dvcbyrequest.com) is set up as a sole proprietorship with 26 employees.
https://www.bbb.org/ca/on/london/profile/vacation-rentals/davids-vacation-club-rentals-0187-1049496


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Marionnette said:


> According to the BBB, David’s Vacation Club Rentals (dvcbyrequest.com) is set up as a sole proprietorship with 26 employees.
> https://www.bbb.org/ca/on/london/profile/vacation-rentals/davids-vacation-club-rentals-0187-1049496


So, does that mean all of David's personal assets are at risk if the company goes bankrupt?  If so, that goes a long way in explaining the way they've handled this situation (i.e., self-preservation).


----------



## Marionnette

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, does that mean all of David's personal assets are at risk if the company goes bankrupt?  If so, that goes a long way in explaining the way they've handled this situation (i.e., self-preservation).


I’m not an attorney and I know nothing about Canadian bankruptcy laws. But I do know that our little 5-employee business was set up as an LLC and not as a sole proprietorship for the exact purpose of protecting our personal assets in the event of a lawsuit.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Marionnette said:


> I’m not an attorney and I know nothing about Canadian bankruptcy laws. But I do know that our little 5-employee business was set up as an LLC and not as a sole proprietorship for the exact purpose of protecting our personal assets in the event of a lawsuit.


I was familiar with LLCs being created largely for that protection, which is why I assume that NOT being an LLC means they don't have that protection.  But just curious if anyone knows for certain.


----------



## Dracula

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I was familiar with LLCs being created largely for that protection, which is why I assume that NOT being an LLC means they don't have that protection.  But just curious if anyone knows for certain.


The LLC option is not available in Canada. Owners would need to incorporate, setting up a corporation. It is easier to operate as a sole proprietorship - but then the business is considered to be an extension of the owner, and as such the owner is personally responsible for any debts or liabilities incurred by the business. In other words, when you're dealing with David's, you're really dealing with David.


----------



## DisneyBB

Is there anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renters directly?  I want to just contact them and say that I am willing to change their reservation but it is time dependent.


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyBB said:


> Is there anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renters directly?  I want to just contact them and say that I am willing to change their reservation but it is time dependent.



Not technically, but the owner contract you have with Davids does not allow you to change the reservation. So, you would be violating that aspect.  Only you can decide if it is worth the risk of Davids declaring you in breach and requiring the return of the 70%


----------



## Dracula

Sandisw said:


> Not technically, but the owner contract you have with Davids does not allow you to change the reservation. So, you would be violating that aspect.  Only you can decide if it is worth the risk of Davids declaring you in breach and requiring the return of the 70%


When you are in breach of the contract, you may be liable for more than just 70%. The liability may extend over other costs incurred by the renter, according to the contract.


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> Not technically, but the owner contract you have with Davids does not allow you to change the reservation. So, you would be violating that aspect.  Only you can decide if it is worth the risk of Davids declaring you in breach and requiring the return of the 70%



I would think if you emailed David's as owner saying you and renter have agreed to amend the contract he'd be an **** not to permit it.  Seems they should welcome such problem solving as it's far above and beyond the solutions they have made... My point being bringing him in before changing, bc then he agreed to it right?  I mean heck three way contract agreed to by all parties... That's the first time that has come up here...


----------



## Phatscott25

JBwahoo said:


> I think this may be the clause to which you are referring:
> 
> "[Broker] or the Member shall not be responsible for any injuries, damages, or losses caused to the Guest or Guest's travel party in connection with terrorist activities, social, or labor unrest, mechanical or construction failures or difficulties, diseases, local laws, climatic conditions, criminal acts or abnormal conditions or developments, or any other actions, omissions, or conditions outside the [Broker]'s or the Member's control."
> 
> Not a lawyer, though my read of this passage is that it is general liability re: don't try to sue us if you get sick while on your trip or if the monorail isn't working.  This does not appear to be a force majeure clause, and certainly doesn't explicitly cover what happens if the broker is unable to provide the contracted service.  Especially considering the next passage begins "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member..."
> 
> I don't believe this will absolve them from not being able to deliver on the contract in a similar manner being discussed regarding David's and they'll face the same risks on chargebacks.  I'd suspect there is less complaining here as this is an owner heavy part of the board, and from what I can tell this broker is still trying to make owners whole.


The rest of that portion of the contract you mentioned is as follows:

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with broker, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $xx US Dollars."

You may very well be correct, as far as the broker having liability to refund the renter. As an owner my concern is whether I'd be contractually forced to offer a refund. And my interpretation of the contract is that I would not. 

I received an identical email that someone else posted recently in this thread. I was asked to help if possible, but told I would receive full payment regardless. So I think my interpretation of the contract, as far as it concerns me as an owner, is correct. Either that or they value their relationship with owners much better than David's apparently does. 

Thankfully, I was able to help the renter out with a reschedule.


----------



## Phatscott25

Sandisw said:


> Please refer to this in regards to DIS policies about businesses.
> DIS guidelines





CarolMN said:


> *100% NOT true*.  Sponsors have no input into what other businesses may be discussed on the DIS.    Please do not spread this incorrect information.   This is from the pinned thread at the top of every DIS DVC forum:
> 
> *From the DIS Guidelines:*
> 
> *7. ADVERTISING
> 
> The advertisers/sponsors who you see on the DIS are carefully chosen. ...
> 
> We do welcome discussion of DIS advertisers/sponsors as well as other businesses that you have information or questions about. ...............(snip)............
> 
> Suggestion that DIS advertisers and sponsors have influence over how the forums are run is far from the truth. They are provided advertising space on the DIS and, if they have registered usernames, will have an "Approved Advertiser" icon in their profile. Otherwise, they play no role in what may be posted on the DIS about them or their competitors.
> 
> From the DIS Guidelines:
> 
> FILTERED WORDS, NAMES and URLS
> 
> The DIS is a privately owned web site and we reserve the right to restrict any outside commercial ventures at our discretion. We will not discuss the reasons behind why specific websites are filtered and any discussion regarding the word filter may be deleted.
> 
> Here are some of the DVC resale brokers often mentioned on the DIS:
> 
> The Timeshare Store (a DIS sponsor) - http://www.dvc-resales.com
> Fidelity Resales - http://fidelityresales.com/
> DVC by Resale - http://www.dvcbyresale.com/
> Selling Timeshares - http://www.sellingtimeshares.net
> DVC Magic Resales - http://www.DVCmagicresales.com
> DVC Resale Market - http://www.dvcresalemarket.com/
> 
> Here are few other options for DVC resale purchases:
> 
> Timeshare Users Group - http://www.tug2.net (Also a great resource for information about other Timeshare programs)
> Timesharing Today - http://www.tstoday.com
> Redweek - http://www.redweek.com
> Ebay - http://www.ebay.com
> 
> ...and here are some other sites frequently posted on the DIS DVC Forums:
> Owners Locker - http://www.ownerslocker.com
> DVC Request - http://www.DVCrequest.com
> DVC News - DVCNews.com
> 
> If you wish to promote a business or site not mentioned in this post or without posting a link, please recognize that you will be doing so at your own risk.*
> 
> *Thanks in advance for your cooperation. *


My apologies.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> Is there anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renters directly?  I want to just contact them and say that I am willing to change their reservation but it is time dependent.


David’s didn’t give me the option to help the renter I was originally linked with. The re-renting of points would be with  different renter.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

So it's Saturday has anyone who was a Renter received any communication from David's whatsoever on his credit system? I have seen nothing... Would have been checking in at Aulani in an hour or so.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

foodiddiedoo said:


> So it's Saturday has anyone who was a Renter received any communication from David's whatsoever on his credit system? I have seen nothing... Would have been checking in at Aulani in an hour or so.



Nope. We would have been one of the first groups impacted by the WDW closure if they are going in order. In fairness we also made it clear a credit is not a solution for us weeks ago when they announced it. But no standard email or anything.


----------



## banzai75

Hello everyone.  I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David.  We were scheduled for first week of April.  I am not a lawyer.   

My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause.   My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations.  Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund.  From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.

I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit.  The owners got their points back.  I should get my money back? It's very restrictive.  I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.  

Here is the travel credit email from David:

Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
*Terms & Conditions*

The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
Credit has no cash value.
The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## banzai75

I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above. 

I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed. 

Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?


----------



## Grnl706

banzai75 said:


> I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.
> 
> I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.
> 
> Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?




First, thank you for posting this. I was wondering how this would look. Could you just initiate the charge back and not respond? I don't like how they pigeon hole you into not accepting AND keeping your reservation as is. Seems shady. How can you keep a reservation that's cancelled?

ETA: The more I think about it, is this a way to try to stop charge backs in their tracks? If you hit no and do a charge back they now have something of you agreeing to keep the reservation and get no refund.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

banzai75 said:


> Hello everyone.  I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David.  We were scheduled for first week of April.  I am not a lawyer.
> 
> My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause.   My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations.  Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund.  From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.
> 
> I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit.  The owners got their points back.  I should get my money back? It's very restrictive.  I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.
> 
> Here is the travel credit email from David:
> 
> Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
> Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
> *Terms & Conditions*
> 
> The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
> You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
> Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
> Credit has no cash value.
> The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
> Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
> Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
> In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
> In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
> No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
> These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
> Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
> 
> Thanks everyone!



They are offering credits not refunds because they don’t have the cash available to refund us all. We can only assume, at least. IMO if they were confident in the strength of their contracts with renters they would have let us take the loss, maybe contacting those whose owners had points expiring far enough away to rebook. Their actions are souring them to a lot of their owners who are I would guess harder to replace than us renters, so my guess is they took this path because they had to, not to be “generous“ and offer a credit vs nothing.

Anyways, if a credit is not adequate in your opinion absolutely initiate a dispute. You are not required to accept it.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

banzai75 said:


> I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.
> 
> I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.
> 
> Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?



Take a page from their playbook and due to the volume of emails in your inbox, you are addressing them in order of receipt and you’ll get to theirs sometime in July.


----------



## banzai75

I'm just confused on the cash flow position and how moneys are transferred.  

1. I renter paid 3000 to DVC for aulani
2. Owner uses 50 points and books Aulani on my behalf
3. David takes percentage broker fee and pays owner 2100 to owner

Now Aulani closes

4. Owner gets refunded 50 points.  Per Disney website
5. Is owner supposed to pay David back the 2100 since he didn't provide service?
6. David then pays 3000 back to me

Is step 5 the sticking point?  Please excuse me if I simplified this to much.  Just trying to understand from a different point of view.


----------



## starry_solo

banzai75 said:


> I'm just confused on the cash flow position and how moneys are transferred.
> 
> 1. I renter paid 3000 to DVC for aulani
> 2. Owner uses 50 points and books Aulani on my behalf
> 3. David takes percentage broker fee and pays owner 2100 to owner
> 
> Now Aulani closes
> 
> 4. Owner gets refunded 50 points.  Per Disney website
> 5. Is owner supposed to pay David back the 2100 since he didn't provide service?
> 6. David then pays 3000 back to me
> 
> Is step 5 the sticking point?  Please excuse me if I simplified this to much.  Just trying to understand from a different point of view.



#3 - David doesn't pay the owner $2100.  Of the $3000 you paid, David's took 30% (or $900).  Then of the $2100 that David kept, he only paid 70%, which is $1470-ish.  He kept the remaining amount until the date of check-in.  Some owners got that remaining amount on the date of check-in (even if no one checked in because the resort is closed), but that seems to be a rare few.

#4 - doesn't always happen.  It depends on when the points expired.  That's what some of the owners 
are saying.  The points expired, cannot be banked or used, so they are worthless.

#5 - no.  See #4

#6 - no.  David's isn't giving up his 30% commission


----------



## DGsAtBLT

banzai75 said:


> I'm just confused on the cash flow position and how moneys are transferred.
> 
> 1. I renter paid 3000 to DVC for aulani
> 2. Owner uses 50 points and books Aulani on my behalf
> 3. David takes percentage broker fee and pays owner 2100 to owner
> 
> Now Aulani closes
> 
> 4. Owner gets refunded 50 points.  Per Disney website
> 5. Is owner supposed to pay David back the 2100 since he didn't provide service?
> 6. David then pays 3000 back to me
> 
> Is step 5 the sticking point?  Please excuse me if I simplified this to much.  Just trying to understand from a different point of view.



David’s pays owner 70% of their portion, and holds the rest their portion until check in date. In near all cases I believe, they have not paid out that remaining 30% on the canceled reservations. David’s has asked owners to return funds BUT the kicker, this is to fund the credits not to pass directly to renters as a refund. 

The points your owner is returned may or may not be usable points. They could expire before they can be rebooked, leaving  them worthless to that owner or close to it.

As a renter, I’m to the point where I don’t really care what’s going on between the owner and David’s. That’s for them to work out. We all used brokers to lessen our risk (haha, right?) and simplify this transaction, so that’s who I’m focused on getting money back from.


----------



## Dracula

banzai75 said:


> I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.
> 
> I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.
> 
> Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?


You cannot keep your reservation as is since it already expired during the first week of April. If you can live with the restrictive conditions of the travel voucher, take that. Otherwise, inform David that you would rather have a refund, and if he says no, dispute the charge with Chase. If Chase finds in David's favour because the reservation was non-refundable, then ask David to let you have the voucher. But it may be best to hold on with filing the dispute, because it is not 100% sure that David would still give you the voucher if you lose the dispute - so it helps to wait a couple of weeks and see how this worked for other renters, who would hopefully post on this board. Still, make sure you don't run out of the window for filing the dispute with Chase. At this point however, there is no benefit from rushing to accept the voucher (it's not like he would ever run out of vouchers) - just get in writing that he refuses to issue a refund.


----------



## Sandisw

banzai75 said:


> I'm just confused on the cash flow position and how moneys are transferred.
> 
> 1. I renter paid 3000 to DVC for aulani
> 2. Owner uses 50 points and books Aulani on my behalf
> 3. David takes percentage broker fee and pays owner 2100 to owner
> 
> Now Aulani closes
> 
> 4. Owner gets refunded 50 points.  Per Disney website
> 5. Is owner supposed to pay David back the 2100 since he didn't provide service?
> 6. David then pays 3000 back to me
> 
> Is step 5 the sticking point?  Please excuse me if I simplified this to much.  Just trying to understand from a different point of view.



The key to all of this is that even if the owner you rented the reservation from did decide to return the money they were paid to Davids, he is not giving it to the renters,  He, on his own, has decided that he will keep it and only give yu a credit

IMO, I would email him back and say you are filing a dispute with your CC because you believe you are entitled to the refund and not the credit.

Of course, it is a risk, but it sounds like those that accept the credit, and then something happens to your 2nd trip, you get nothing and he Gets to keep the money the original owner returned


----------



## Amymouse13

the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.


Haha accept this deal which fixes the loophole in my previous contract... No promise he can fill voucher either, but no take backs of not.  

I didn't get an email and we were supposed to check in today.  Our reservations were cancelled by owners in March.  My chargeback was filed in March... Yeah so we already sent documents and signed the forms for CC.


----------



## ziravan

banzai75 said:


> Hello everyone.  I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David.  We were scheduled for first week of April.  I am not a lawyer.
> 
> My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause.   My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations.  Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund.  From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.
> 
> I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit.  The owners got their points back.  I should get my money back? It's very restrictive.  I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.
> 
> Here is the travel credit email from David:
> 
> Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
> Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
> *Terms & Conditions*
> 
> The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
> You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
> Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
> Credit has no cash value.
> The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
> Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
> Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
> In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
> In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
> No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
> These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
> Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
> 
> Thanks everyone!


I wouldn’t respond and WOULD seek a chargeback. David’s is admitting that his credit has no cash value, so how can that be a legitimate substitute for your cash payment? This is a point I would make to the CC company.


----------



## momincolorado

banzai75 said:


> Hello everyone.  I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David.  We were scheduled for first week of April.  I am not a lawyer.
> 
> My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause.   My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations.  Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund.  From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.
> 
> I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit.  The owners got their points back.  I should get my money back? It's very restrictive.  I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.
> 
> Here is the travel credit email from David:
> 
> Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
> Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
> *Terms & Conditions*
> 
> The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
> You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
> Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
> Credit has no cash value.
> The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
> Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
> Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
> In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
> In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
> No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
> These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
> Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
> 
> Thanks everyone!



Cash bookings at Disney resorts are all refundable so if you are using the credit for that and something happens, he gets to keep the money. #14 - he gets to modify (or even eliminate any element of) the credit as he pleases, #15 you are releasing him from any liability (including liability under the existing rental agreement). If ANYTHING goes wrong (and we have all learned that things can go wrong), you are completely out of luck, he keeps the money. I also use Chase Sapphire- it’s a good card. I would do a chargeback.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

banzai75 said:


> I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.
> 
> I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.
> 
> Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?


Heads I win, tails you lose.



Amymouse13 said:


> Haha accept this deal which fixes the loophole in my previous contract... No promise he can fill voucher either, but no take backs of not.


----------



## waltonmkb

Amymouse13 said:


> Haha accept this deal which fixes the loophole in my previous contract... No promise he can fill voucher either, but no take backs of not.


That’s what’s really shady!  As a renter, I already signed a contract with him that I thought gave me some protection, but now in order to get anything, I have to sign a new contract that is basically s**t?  If you accept the voucher, I would still expect the previous contract to still be in effect.  How can he change the terms of the agreement in order for you to get what you paid for?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

waltonmkb said:


> That’s what’s really shady!


The terms & conditions of the voucher explicitly protect David's if closures occur again during your re-scheduled trip.  So you can either agree to forfeit your money now or accept the deal and HOPE the resorts are open when you go, because if they aren't, you get nothing.

The worst part is that the wording is such that you can choose to "keep your reservation as is."  But that only applies to those who are still gambling on resorts opening back up for an upcoming stay.  For those who already had reservations cancelled due to the closures, the choice he's offering is to take the voucher or forfeit 100% of your money.


----------



## waltonmkb

banzai75 said:


> I, ????, accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit as they're listed above.
> 
> I, ????, do not accept the terms and conditions of the travel credit and agree to keep my reservation as is, understanding that there are no refunds or modifications allowed.
> 
> Doesn't it sound like if I hit no than i am out of luck?



I would remind David that you already have a contract in place that both of you signed when you paid your money and he accepted your money and if he is no longer honoring that contract, then you are entitled to a refund.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


----------



## Frustrated renter

As a renter, I never assumed the travel credit would be as good as a cash refund but a cash refund was never offered.

Its not certain a chargeback will be successful, especially for those of us outside the 180 purchase timeframe, but after reading these terms and conditions a chargeback appears to be the more desirable option.

I was hoping the cash booking option at least would cover any risks associated with parks not re-opening by our new travel dates, giving us the ability to reschedule if Disney cancels our reservation again.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


----------



## McCrae

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> So, I was doing some research and found some interesting things.
> 
> I am going to start by saying that i'm not a lawyer.  This is not legal advice.  This is just some interesting things i've found in researching force majeure.
> 
> So, my understanding is that since (before this COVID stuff started) David's rental contracts did not have a Force Majeure clause the contracts would fall to one of two possibilities:  Frustration of Purpose or the Doctrine of Impossibility.
> 
> Some sources:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_of_purposehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibility
> Okay.  Things are probably very strange here.  A court and a bunch of high-priced lawyers will actually have to figure out what's going on.  But i'm offering a legal thought experiment.
> 
> In order for Force Majeure to apply, the contracts would have to have explicit Force Majeure clauses in them.  They don't, so we then move on to Frustration of Purpose or the Doctrine of Impossibility.
> 
> According to the wikipedia article on Frustration of purpose, it applies when the reasonably known purpose of a contract can no longer be fulfilled...but the specific terms of the contract CAN still be fulfilled.  To put this in DVC terms:  The reasonably known purpose of the contract to rent DVC points is that the family wanted to enjoy a Disney Vacation.  If the parks had closed, but the resorts had stayed open, then this would fall in to the "frustration of purpose" bucket.
> 
> The Doctrine of Impossibility applies when it is impossible to fulfill the obligations of the contract.  In this case, Disney, the government, etc. have closed the resorts and it is literally impossible to have a reservation that the renter can check in to.  It is impossible to perform the duties specified in the contract.
> 
> In the doctrine of impossibility, everyone is excused from all of their duties.  The DVC member is excused from their duty to provide the reservation. David's is excused from their duty to pay David's.  The renter is excused from their duty to pay David's.
> 
> Once thing that I thought was interesting from the article on the Doctrine of Impossibility though:
> 
> 
> Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back.  I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back.  Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.



That is one possible way to look at things. Different jurisdictions will have a different interpretation. David’s contracts are not covered by US law. Renters and owners have a contract with a Canadian company with no offices in the US. They have agreed to be bound by Canadian law. When you deal with a foreign company it’s an additional risk if things go wrong it can be much more difficult to get a resolution you are happy with.


----------



## McCrae

waltonmkb said:


> That’s what’s really shady!  As a renter, I already signed a contract with him that I thought gave me some protection, but now in order to get anything, I have to sign a new contract that is basically s**t?  If you accept the voucher, I would still expect the previous contract to still be in effect.  How can he change the terms of the agreement in order for you to get what you paid for?


I think for renters trying charge back is the most likley hope for any success. 

David’s argument will be that he has fulfilled his contract with you. Provided a reservation for a stay at Disney. He is not responsible for the resort being closed. The contract you signed had a no refunds clause under any circumstances. If you lose out you are at fault for not taking out adequate insurance as advised.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

ziravan said:


> Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back.  I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back.  Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.


But even if the owner has the money to pay David’s back, everything is not undone. Time has moved on. The value of the points returned to the owner are not the same as they were when they let David’s rent them because they will be expiring sooner. The choices the owner has in using those points has diminished or disappeared completely.


----------



## cm8

banzai75 said:


> Hello everyone.  I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David.  We were scheduled for first week of April.  I am not a lawyer.
> 
> My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause.   My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations.  Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund.  From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.
> 
> I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit.  The owners got their points back.  I should get my money back? It's very restrictive.  I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.
> 
> Here is the travel credit email from David:
> 
> Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
> Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
> *Terms & Conditions*
> 
> *The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.*
> You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
> Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
> *Credit has no cash value.*
> The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
> Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
> Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
> In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
> In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
> No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
> These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
> *Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.*
> 
> Thanks everyone!




I am also not a lawyer. Can someone please explain how they can make changes to an original contract, then say that this new one goes in place of the one thrown out?  Wouldn’t that require all parties to agree and sign acknowledging such? 

Also, if he up and made changes without the consent of either party, does this not breach the original contract anyway? How does it give them authority to make changes but everyone gets told they are not authorized to do so? 

Just curious. 

In addition to what is bolded, how can the travel credit be used to “refund” but has zero cash value? Then he goes on to say if travel exceeds “value” they have to pay more? Is he assigning “value” by which resort you booked? 

Are some people going to get less than others based on what and where they booked? This doesn’t seem like a great trade off for the renter. Especially when it says they might have to pay more. 

So, if the “credit” has zero cash value, what is it backed by?? Good faith? His company’s name?


----------



## cm8

banzai75 said:


> I'm just confused on the cash flow position and how moneys are transferred.
> 
> 1. I renter paid 3000 to DVC for aulani
> 2. Owner uses 50 points and books Aulani on my behalf
> 3. David takes percentage broker fee and pays owner 2100 to owner
> 
> Now Aulani closes
> 
> 4. *Owner gets refunded 50 points.  Per Disney website*
> 5. Is owner supposed to pay David back the 2100 since he didn't provide service?
> 6. David then pays 3000 back to me
> 
> Is step 5 the sticking point?  Please excuse me if I simplified this to much.  Just trying to understand from a different point of view.



Not all Owners have been refunded. If the points used were due to expire, many have lost those points and currently nothing has been made public on what DVC will do for those cases. 

You can’t say renters have had the points refunded if you don’t know what condition those points were in when rented out.


----------



## Grnl706

I have a question about my specific situation; I hope this is okay but everyone has been really insightful in here (and this pertains to David's).

This credit deal is just garbage. So I looked at my travel insurance policy again JUST to make sure I wasn't missing something and I think I may have. Never had to potentially file a claim before but here is what I'm thinking;

There is a clause that allows for reimbursement of non-refundable expenses (David's) if the Insured (my husband and I) or Travel Companion (we're going with a group of 9 other adults and 5 kids) loses their job at no fault of their own. Out of those 11 adults, 4 have been furloughed/let go from their jobs. That's the main reason we knew we  weren't going. Half of the group can't afford to go anymore! It says it does not apply to seasonal, temporary, independent contractors or self employed which none of them fit. 

I'm interpreting that I may be able to file a claim with some proof that those people are furloughed/laid off and are currently not working thus getting my funds back that I paid David's without doing a charge back. Is this a stretch or am I on to something?


----------



## cm8

Grnl706 said:


> I have a question about my specific situation; I hope this is okay but everyone has been really insightful in here (and this pertains to David's).
> 
> This credit deal is just garbage. So I looked at my travel insurance policy again JUST to make sure I wasn't missing something and I think I may have. Never had to potentially file a claim before but here is what I'm thinking;
> 
> There is a clause that allows for reimbursement of non-refundable expenses (David's) if the Insured (my husband and I) or Travel Companion (we're going with a group of 9 other adults and 5 kids) loses their job at no fault of their own. Out of those 11 adults, 4 have been furloughed/let go from their jobs. That's the main reason we knew we  weren't going. Half of the group can't afford to go anymore! It says it does not apply to seasonal, temporary, independent contractors or self employed which none of them fit.
> 
> I'm interpreting that I may be able to file a claim with some proof that those people are furloughed/laid off and are currently not working thus getting my funds back that I paid David's without doing a charge back. Is this a stretch or am I on to something?



When are/were you scheduled to travel? If it’s after the job loss, I believe you will be covered. If it’s before job loss then you may need to proceed in a different manner.


----------



## Grnl706

cm8 said:


> When are/were you scheduled to travel? If it’s after the job loss, I believe you will be covered. If it’s before job loss then you may need to proceed in a different manner.


Our trip is in June and the job loss started for one person at the end of March and the rest about a week ago.


----------



## cm8

Grnl706 said:


> Our trip is in June and the job loss started for one person at the end of March and the rest about a week ago.


I wouldn’t hesitate to reach out and go that route. I’d get it done ASAP. Then, hold on to that in your back pocket.... While you are pursuing that option, tell no one until due time. Sometimes it’s best not to let your right hand know what your left hand is doing!


----------



## LawrenceFamily

DisneyBB said:


> Is there anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renters directly?  I want to just contact them and say that I am willing to change their reservation but it is time dependent.



No there is nothing in either agreement (owner or renter) that restricts each other from contacting one another.


----------



## OrangeCountyCommuter

I have never rented or dealt with David. But I have dealt with bankrupt firms before. I’ve been on teams trying to untangle the mess so that the new owners can figure out what they got. And everything about this tells me David’s has a cash flow problem. He has been living off of the holdback money. That money has not been properly secured to be available to pay the owner. Basically as long as the cash kept flowing the game worked. Cash is no longer flowing the game is not working and  he is trying to claw back payments to stave off financial collapse.  


If you are an owner realize that if you return the cash it’s only going to keep the company going.  I don’t think he legally has any right to it.  I’ve never seen a bankruptcy where paying legitimate creditors was reversed 

If you are a renter, file a chargeback on your credit card TODAY.  Do not wait.   This is probably not going to end well


----------



## LawrenceFamily

OrangeCountyCommuter said:


> I have never rented or dealt with David. But I have dealt with bankrupt firms before. I’ve been on teams trying to untangle the mess so that the new owners can figure out what they got. And everything about this tells me David’s has a cash flow problem. He has been living off of the holdback money. That money has not been properly secured to be available to pay the owner. Basically as long as the cash kept flowing the game worked. Cash is no longer flowing the game is not working and  he is trying to claw back payments to stave off financial collapse.
> 
> 
> If you are an owner realize that if you return the cash it’s only going to keep the company going.  I don’t think he legally has any right to it.  I’ve never seen a bankruptcy where paying legitimate creditors was reversed
> 
> If you are a renter, file a chargeback on your credit card TODAY.  Do not wait.   This is probably not going to end well



Do you really believe that David's are going to go bankrupt? Would be typical considering we have just rented 230 points to them for February 2021 reservations!  Personally think there will be more than enough people renting points for next year to keep cash flow moving and as soon as Disney re-open in the next couple of months, things will start to get back to normal.


----------



## CraigInPA

cm8 said:


> I am also not a lawyer. Can someone please explain how they can make changes to an original contract, then say that this new one goes in place of the one thrown out?  Wouldn’t that require all parties to agree and sign acknowledging such?
> 
> Also, if he up and made changes without the consent of either party, does this not breach the original contract anyway? How does it give them authority to make changes but everyone gets told they are not authorized to do so?



If all parties to the original agreement agree to amend or replace the original contract, it can be changed. David's cannot unilaterally enforce new terms upon you and the owner. As such, his travel voucher scheme only works if you sign off on it. You don't even owe him a response, since his travel voucher is considered an "offer" to amend the agreement.


----------



## OrangeCountyCommuter

LawrenceFamily said:


> Do you really believe that David's are going to go bankrupt? Would be typical considering we have just rented 230 points to them for February 2021 reservations!  Personally think there will be more than enough people renting points for next year to keep cash flow moving and as soon as Disney re-open in the next couple of months, things will start to get back to normal.


I think there’s definitely a cash flow situation here that could lead to bankruptcy. The fact that they want money back from the owners but are not refunding it to renters tells me they’re using that cash to meet day-to-day expenses. But no cash is coming in. And the fact that they have done this to the owners means that there may not be much inventory. You are going to pay them going forward if they don’t have points to rent. The house of cards could be close to collapse.   


I also think Disney is going to open the floodgates on discounts once they reopen. And that’s going to make renting  less attractive to a lot of people. If I can get a good deal on a Disney hotel without the risk of a renting or the hassle of renting that’s what I do. I wouldn’t even bother looking at renting. I was just reading  another thread on here where somebody got beach club for about $100 more than renting a studio at Beach club Villa would’ve cost. No brainer I’ll be at Beach club and ignoring this whole renting nonsense


----------



## New Mouse

So if I am Davids...you use your voucher to request points for an AKL club DVC room for 2 weeks.   You initiate the trasnaction...Davids cant find a renter.    Davids is now off the hook according to what Im reading.

If Davids does find a renter, he pays the seller $15.50 per point 70% up front and gets $0 in return...that is someone basically kicking the can down.the road.

If I am an owner, why would I take that risk with 30% of my money?

If Davids is providing cash reservations, whos to say the price you and I can find is the price youll get?  Again there is 0 incentive for that to be the case.

As for future owners 30%, if I am ever to use a broker again, I would require my money be kept in escrow.  Looking back, there is no reason he shouldnt have a pool of money right now that isnt allowed to be touched.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

OrangeCountyCommuter said:


> I have never rented or dealt with David. But I have dealt with bankrupt firms before. I’ve been on teams trying to untangle the mess so that the new owners can figure out what they got. And everything about this tells me David’s has a cash flow problem. He has been living off of the holdback money. That money has not been properly secured to be available to pay the owner. Basically as long as the cash kept flowing the game worked. Cash is no longer flowing the game is not working and  he is trying to claw back payments to stave off financial collapse.
> 
> 
> If you are an owner realize that if you return the cash it’s only going to keep the company going.  I don’t think he legally has any right to it.  I’ve never seen a bankruptcy where paying legitimate creditors was reversed
> 
> If you are a renter, file a chargeback on your credit card TODAY.  Do not wait.   This is probably not going to end well


Communicate with the renter. If they do not get the chargeback, then as an owner, refund the renter. Worry about David’s later.


----------



## Madame

BWV Dreamin said:


> Communicate with the renter. If they do not get the chargeback, then as an owner, refund the renter. Worry about David’s later.


No!  If David’s initiated a PayPal chargeback against the owner, the owner will need those funds!   This is not a handshake deal world we live in.


----------



## CraigInPA

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> So, I was doing some research and found some interesting things.
> ...
> Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back.  I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back.  Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.



If you're dealing only in contract law, the contract became frustrated or impossible. 

However, when it became impossible, the owner may have suffered a financial loss to the value of his points. Many owners rented banked points due to expire. When the owner rented them 11 months ago, they had a value (per the contract with David's) of $14.50 per point. Getting them back with a very short window to use them, if they are usable at all (they could expire while the resort is closed, or there may not be reservations available before they expire) means they are worth considerably less than $14.50 per point. So, the owner should be compensated for the loss if the contract is impossible. 

But, step beyond contract law, and it gets more complicated. Consumer protection laws exist to prevent consumers from paying money and getting nothing of value in return. Because the risk of a resort closure was known (Hurricanes have closed various DVC resorts in the past), it should have been covered in the contract under a force majeure and all parties would then be aware of the risk. Because the force majeure was not there, the risk is likely unknown to the renter. Under most consumer protection laws, the renter is due a refund. 

And back to contract law... the party drafting a contract cannot claim incompetence in drafting as a defense. David's wrote the contract. David's acted as a reseller. He rented a reservation expressed in "points" from the owner, and sold it to to the renter as a "reservation". He collected the purchase price from the renter, and dispersed payment to the owner. He is responsible to the renter for a refund. He is responsible to the owner for paying the value of the distressed points. Had be operated as a true broker, with the renter paying the owner directly, and the owner paying David's a commission, or the renter paying David's a commission and the owner the cost of the rental, David's would be in a very different position at this moment.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Madame said:


> No!  If David’s initiated a PayPal chargeback against the owner, the owner will need those funds!   This is not a handshake deal world we live in.


Well one would know that, right? Look, it’s a mess.  Still need to communicate with the renter.


----------



## lpereira

I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
Davids  DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.


----------



## Madame

BWV Dreamin said:


> Well one would know that, right? Look, it’s a mess.  Still need to communicate with the renter.


No.  Literally that is why people used a broker.  If an owner wants to, sure, but David’s has been twisting conversations between owners & renters to suit themselves (been there, done that).  David’s is no small Mom & Pop shop, assume it is at your own peril.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Does David’s know if the points the owner is booking the reservation with are “expiring”.

As a renter, I certainly don’t know that. So if they are distressed, as a renter, that is not something I should have to concern myself with when talking about the difficulties of contract law with the doctrines of frustration or impossibility. I just rented points for a room, and a that’s all my contract says.

I really hope people stop accepting the voucher from David’s and push them to negotiate with me individually. I’d rather have 2/3 of my cash back than a voucher for the full amount.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

yankeesfan123 said:


> Does David’s know if the points the owner is booking the reservation with are “expiring”.
> 
> As a renter, I certainly don’t know that. So if they are distressed, as a renter, that is not something I should have to concern myself with when talking about the difficulties of contract law with the doctrines of frustration or impossibility. I just rented points for a room, and a that’s all my contract says.
> 
> I really hope people stop accepting the voucher from David’s and push them to negotiate with me individually. I’d rather have 2/3 of my cash back than a voucher for the full amount.


Exactly. That is what owners should be doing. I am an owner  that rents. If I had a horse in this race, it would be to communicate with my renter and come up with some acceptable solution. It’s not rocket science. Owners do not need to hide behind the agreement with David’s. That is another issue that does not concern the renter. Wish people would do the right thing.


----------



## McCrae

lpereira said:


> I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
> Davids  DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
> Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.


Potentially you could file against the company registered In Florida. I would guess it will have almost no assets. More likely to be a virtual company. It would also depend on who your contract is listed with. If the company listed in Florida is different to the company your contract is with then you will hit a block.
The easiest option to recover cash remains charge back. If that’s not successful you may struggle with any legal action.


----------



## Sandisw

BWV Dreamin said:


> Well one would know that, right? Look, it’s a mess.  Still need to communicate with the renter.



The issue is still that an owner has a contract with Davids.  They have to be careful what they do, even if they contact the renter.  A y changes or cancelations by the owner is a breach of the contract,

That requires the money to be paid back, along with other expenses.  One might not know that a chargeback to Paypal from Davids before doing something for the renter,

I have a renter with an August reservation.  I will contact the renter if I need to if the company goes under, as I plan to offer them the reservation regardless, and eat the 30% I am owed.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> Does David’s know if the points the owner is booking the reservation with are “expiring”.
> 
> As a renter, I certainly don’t know that. So if they are distressed, as a renter, that is not something I should have to concern myself with when talking about the difficulties of contract law with the doctrines of frustration or impossibility. I just rented points for a room, and a that’s all my contract says.
> 
> I really hope people stop accepting the voucher from David’s and push them to negotiate with me individually. I’d rather have 2/3 of my cash back than a voucher for the full amount.



Which is why your issue is with Davids and not the owner.  Davids has a contract with the owner as well that states nature of the points.

Basically, Davids is on the hook for both renter and owners.  As a renter, if you believe you are due a refund, then do a chargeback to your CC, because it has been mentioned several times, even owners who are returning the funds to Davids, are being told that money is not going to the original renter,


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I like and appreciate your effort here.  Quite interesting because Wiki is a 'broader' less focused view that I think would show what most people believe or expect those things to mean.  But I disagree that everyone owes the money back.  It will depend on who was damaged.  For example an owner who got money and points back will not be able to double dip.  An owner with money but wasted points will get treated differently.  Dave's appears to be the great loser if court happens which is imo why Dave is trying to throw so much against the wall




YourEveryDayAdam said:


> So, I was doing some research and found some interesting things.
> 
> I am going to start by saying that i'm not a lawyer.  This is not legal advice.  This is just some interesting things i've found in researching force majeure.
> 
> So, my understanding is that since (before this COVID stuff started) David's rental contracts did not have a Force Majeure clause the contracts would fall to one of two possibilities:  Frustration of Purpose or the Doctrine of Impossibility.
> 
> Some sources:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration_of_purposehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibility
> Okay.  Things are probably very strange here.  A court and a bunch of high-priced lawyers will actually have to figure out what's going on.  But i'm offering a legal thought experiment.
> 
> In order for Force Majeure to apply, the contracts would have to have explicit Force Majeure clauses in them.  They don't, so we then move on to Frustration of Purpose or the Doctrine of Impossibility.
> 
> According to the wikipedia article on Frustration of purpose, it applies when the reasonably known purpose of a contract can no longer be fulfilled...but the specific terms of the contract CAN still be fulfilled.  To put this in DVC terms:  The reasonably known purpose of the contract to rent DVC points is that the family wanted to enjoy a Disney Vacation.  If the parks had closed, but the resorts had stayed open, then this would fall in to the "frustration of purpose" bucket.
> 
> The Doctrine of Impossibility applies when it is impossible to fulfill the obligations of the contract.  In this case, Disney, the government, etc. have closed the resorts and it is literally impossible to have a reservation that the renter can check in to.  It is impossible to perform the duties specified in the contract.
> 
> In the doctrine of impossibility, everyone is excused from all of their duties.  The DVC member is excused from their duty to provide the reservation. David's is excused from their duty to pay David's.  The renter is excused from their duty to pay David's.
> 
> Once thing that I thought was interesting from the article on the Doctrine of Impossibility though:
> 
> 
> Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back.  I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back.  Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.


----------



## Sandisw

BWV Dreamin said:


> Exactly. That is what owners should be doing. I am an owner  that rents. If I had a horse in this race, it would be to communicate with my renter and come up with some acceptable solution. It’s not rocket science. Owners do not need to hide behind the agreement with David’s. That is another issue that does not concern the renter. Wish people would do the right thing.



Owners are not hiding behind an agreement, but rather making sure they are not breaching a contract they have with Davids,

Yes, renters have an issue here, but so do owners, and I don’t think it’s fair to criticize an owner who doesn’t want to put themself in a legal breach.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> Which is why your issue is with Davids and not the owner.  Davids has a contract with the owner as well that states nature of the points.
> 
> Basically, Davids is on the hook for both renter and owners.  As a renter, if you believe you are due a refund, then do a chargeback to your CC, because it has been mentioned several times, even owners who are returning the funds to Davids, are being told that money is not going to the original renter,


I have no problem with the owner. My statement was only indicating a problem with David’s.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I am not sure if Dave is DVC-rental LLC.  Someone had posted Dave is a sole proprietor and there was no LLC in Canada.  Did you check the assumed name act or something?



lpereira said:


> I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
> Davids  DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
> Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Sandisw said:


> Owners are not hiding behind an agreement, but rather making sure they are not breaching a contract they have with Davids,
> 
> Yes, renters have an issue here, but so do owners, and I don’t think it’s fair to criticize an owner who doesn’t want to put themself in a legal breach.


Yes but regardless renters have no reservation and owners have most of their money.  Let your conscience be your guide.


----------



## JETSDAD

Yeah, that LLC is not Davids.  Just google it you'll see what company it is.


----------



## McCrae

BWV Dreamin said:


> Yes but regardless renters have no reservation and owners have most of their money.  Let your conscience be your guide.



Or if they have taken out adequate insurance as advised renters would have no losses.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Here is the travel credit email from David:

Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.

Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.

Terms & Conditions:

The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
Credit has no cash value.
The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
Haven’t seen this posted here so thought I would share. Doesn’t seem like David cares about either the renter or owner.


----------



## Madame

BWV Dreamin said:


> Yes but regardless renters have no reservation and owners have most of their money.  Let your conscience be your guide.


And when the money is given to the renter & the owner is on the hook to PayPal to refund.  Owners might end up with useless points, and DOUBLE loss on monies paid to the renter and David’s.  You’re right, you have no stake in this.  If you did, I promise you that you would not be advocating return of funds in possible violation of a contract.


----------



## Sandisw

BWV Dreamin said:


> Yes but regardless renters have no reservation and owners have most of their money.  Let your conscience be your guide.



It has nothing to do with that,  It has to do with an owner putting themselves in a legal position in which they lose,

Now, if Davids was letting owners and renters work it out, then absolutely,

But, saying an owner is somehow at fault for not wanting to violate the terms of a legal contract is just plain wrong,


----------



## New Mouse

BWV Dreamin said:


> Yes but regardless renters have no reservation and owners have most of their money.  Let your conscience be your guide.



? Davids owes them their money back.   Davids is sitting on 30% so if they feel that bad give back the 30% and go from there.  Why is it up to the ownet to make it right when the company they purchased from isnt even doing a base level of support?


----------



## cmrdgrs

waltonmkb said:


> That’s what’s really shady!  As a renter, I already signed a contract with him that I thought gave me some protection, but now in order to get anything, I have to sign a new contract that is basically s**t?  If you accept the voucher, I would still expect the previous contract to still be in effect.  How can he change the terms of the agreement in order for you to get what you paid for?


He can change the terms of the agreement only if you agree to let him change the terms of the agreement.  By agreeing to this email, you willingly agreed with the broker to change the terms of your previous agreement.

No way in heck I would agree to these new terms.  I'd simply file a chargeback and see what happens.


----------



## stlrod

"In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue. "

Give David's more money to check to see if they can find availability to use the credit?  That takes gall!


----------



## tubtruck

Has anyone considered that this once in a lifetime event has, and is, ruining businesses. How about giving David a break and accept the credit. He is otherwise likely to be bankrupt and 30 odd peoples livings will be destroyed.
Over here in the UK, even the government has asked if people could accept credit notes if not immediately desperate for the money, rather than insist on refunds even if legally they are entitled to it, otherwise airlines and very large travel companies and many other companies will go bankrupt causing massive misery to millions. 
David never envisaged this, no company or individual did, but things happen in life and this is probably the most devastating world wide event even since the second world war. Lets not all make it worse if we don't need to, whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.


----------



## Sandisw

tubtruck said:


> Has anyone considered that this once in a lifetime event has, and is, ruining businesses. How about giving David a break and accept the credit. He is otherwise likely to be bankrupt and 30 odd peoples livings will be destroyed.
> Over here in the UK, even the government has asked if people could accept credit notes if not immediately desperate for the money, rather than insist on refunds even if legally they are entitled to it, otherwise airlines and very large travel companies and many other companies will go bankrupt causing massive misery to millions.
> David never envisaged this, no company or individual did, but things happen in life and this is probably the most devastating world wide event even since the second world war. Lets not all make it worse if we don't need to, whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.



As an owner, though, he could have done both,  He could have let all owners who could help reschedule renters do so.  He could have given the renter back the money that owners have refunded to him,

He would then have Then been left with only renters and owners whose points were not going to be valid,

Instead, he has come Upwith a scheme that only works for him, and could even makes him more money.  For every voucher that goes unused, he pockets that money since he has expected the owner to refund or rerent, 

Sorry, but he has done this to himself as far as I am concerned and I will not ever use him again


----------



## mort1331

So Dave is a member of TICO in Ontario. It is a type of travel insurance for travel agents and buyers. ie when airlines go belly up, or cruises,,,or this..it might apply. I have not gone thru the whole website or what can be claimed, but both Dave and the customer might have a route this way.
Just adding this since I have not seen in on this thread yet.
FYI

*The Ontario Travel Industry Compensation Fund – Always travel with TICO*
The Ontario Travel Industry Compensation Fund is governed by Ontario Regulation 26/05 made under the Travel Industry Act, 2002. The Fund is totally financed by registered travel agents and travel wholesalers in Ontario and is administered by the Travel Industry Council of Ontario (TICO), whose Board of Directors determine whether a claim or a part of one, meets the requirements of the Regulation. The Board is comprised of individuals appointed by the Association of Canadian Travel Agencies, the Canadian Association of Tour Operators, the Ontario Motor Coach Association, the Ontario Government and individuals elected by registered travel agents and wholesalers.
Subject to the Regulation, the Fund provides reimbursement of monies paid to an Ontario registered travel agent for travel services that are not provided due to the bankruptcy or insolvency of an Ontario registrant or an end supplier airline or cruise line, where a reimbursement has not otherwise been provided. As long as the consumer has dealt through a registered Ontario travel retailer, a claim may be filed against the Compensation Fund for the non-provision of travel services.
Claims may also be filed against the Compensation Fund to provide the reimbursement of reasonable expenses incurred (transportation, accommodation and meals) to complete a trip where the travel services have not been provided as the result of the closure of a TICO registered travel retailer or a TICO registered travel wholesaler. Provided that the consumer purchased their original travel services from an Ontario registered travel retailer, trip completion claims may be eligible when the consumer's travel services commenced prior to the failure of the TICO registrant and the consumer is in destination and unable to receive the travel services purchased to complete their travel plans.


----------



## Cyberc1978

BWV Dreamin said:


> Owners do not need to hide behind the agreement with David’s. That is another issue that does not concern the renter. Wish people would do the right thing.



I totally disagree. Owners which have used David’s don’t have any agreement with the renter directly. Owners only have that with David’s.

In this case what is the “right” thing? Owners have only received 70% of the pay but renters have paid 100%. IMO owners and renters could bypass David’s but I would ask that the renter pay the remaining 30% as that is what the owners haven’t received. It’s of no concern to the owner that the renter have already paid 100%.


----------



## New Mouse

tubtruck said:


> Has anyone considered that this once in a lifetime event has, and is, ruining businesses. How about giving David a break and accept the credit. He is otherwise likely to be bankrupt and 30 odd peoples livings will be destroyed.
> Over here in the UK, even the government has asked if people could accept credit notes if not immediately desperate for the money, rather than insist on refunds even if legally they are entitled to it, otherwise airlines and very large travel companies and many other companies will go bankrupt causing massive misery to millions.
> David never envisaged this, no company or individual did, but things happen in life and this is probably the most devastating world wide event even since the second world war. Lets not all make it worse if we don't need to, whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.



I received a fairly snide reply from them a few weeks before any of this was close to going down so I am not overly sympathetic to their plight.   Im looking to finalize current business with them and move on to someone else as I dont think they run a business that cares about either of their customers.


----------



## cmrdgrs

tubtruck said:


> Has anyone considered that this once in a lifetime event has, and is, ruining businesses. How about giving David a break and accept the credit. He is otherwise likely to be bankrupt and 30 odd peoples livings will be destroyed.
> Over here in the UK, even the government has asked if people could accept credit notes if not immediately desperate for the money, rather than insist on refunds even if legally they are entitled to it, otherwise airlines and very large travel companies and many other companies will go bankrupt causing massive misery to millions.
> *David never envisaged this, no company or individual did, but things happen in life and this is probably the most devastating world wide event even since the second world war. *Lets not all make it worse if we don't need to, whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.


Never envisioned a world event that might disrupt the world as we know it?  Really?  I don't run a multi million dollar business and in my little world I envisioned the day this could happen.  Maybe not a global pandemic, but how about another War?  How about a terrorist attack?  I don't say this to be smug, I say this because he has repeatedly stated and he has slammed owners over the years touting his "reputation" and "that he protects the renters"   Back when the world was rosy he was smug.

The reason people won't accept the credit is because his new terms in the email basically say that once the credit is issued his business has fulfilled their obligation.  He also won't allow anyone to re-book in the event this happens again -- one rebook -- no ifs ands or buts.  His new credit is unreasonable, and although I'm not a lawyer, IMO this extremely one sided contract would not hold up in court.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Frankly I’m sick of this pitting owners and renters against one another. We all used David’s as an intermediary (at a cost) to shield ourselves from this kind of thing, my issue is with them and I really could care less what goes on between them and my owner at this point.

To be perfectly honest I hope they don’t see a dime back from my owner either. I’m frustrated with the mishandling of this whole thing.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

"Darth David" said:
			
		

> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.


I missed this one when I read those terms and conditions.  Not only is "Darth David" altering the deal, he explicitly reserves the right to alter it further!



OrangeCountyCommuter said:


> And everything about this tells me David’s has a cash flow problem. *He has been living off of the holdback money.* That money has not been properly secured to be available to pay the owner.



Apparently, the evidence of this is all over Facebook.



New Mouse said:


> As for future owners 30%, if I am ever to use a broker again, I would require my money be kept in escrow.  Looking back, there is no reason he shouldnt have a pool of money right now that isnt allowed to be touched.


But if that money was in escrow, what would he use to finance _his _vacations?


----------



## stlrod

tubtruck said:


> whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.



Completely agree, but David's touted itself as the safe alternative to directly renting from an owner and advertised heavily to legitimize its business.  Was that morally right?

Also, whether anyone envisaged this is subject to debate.  While I never saw the extent of this pandemic coming, we  all saw what could happen with David's initial response to those whose vacations were cancelled due to the last hurricane.  It was at first very much, "sorry, there are no refunds."  It was at that time I stopped renting any points for trips more than 7 days after my banking deadline.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

tubtruck said:


> Has anyone considered that this once in a lifetime event has, and is, ruining businesses. How about giving David a break and accept the credit. He is otherwise likely to be bankrupt and 30 odd peoples livings will be destroyed.
> Over here in the UK, even the government has asked if people could accept credit notes if not immediately desperate for the money, rather than insist on refunds even if legally they are entitled to it, otherwise airlines and very large travel companies and many other companies will go bankrupt causing massive misery to millions.
> David never envisaged this, no company or individual did, but things happen in life and this is probably the most devastating world wide event even since the second world war. Lets not all make it worse if we don't need to, whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.



So I, as an individual renter, should be okay with potentially throwing away thousands of dollars out of pity, but David’s, a company who is (was) arguably the leader in this space had no responsibility to have contingency plans for these kinds of things nor should they consider the financial plight of all their renters who are also living through this same pandemic.

It’s ironic that renters have been condescendingly told they should have got insurance (many did), known the risks of renting, etc. but David’s was fine to operate in this space for years apparently without a solid plan for this type of scenario or any proper insurance that could cover it.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DGsAtBLT said:


> Frankly I’m sick of this pitting owners and renters against one another. We all used David’s as an intermediary (at a cost) to shield ourselves from this kind of thing, my issue is with them and I really could care less what goes on between them and my owner at this point.
> 
> To be perfectly honest I hope they don’t see a dime back from my owner either. I’m frustrated with the mishandling of this whole thing.


Some owners are reaching out to the renters directly in an effort to salvage things.  I know renters have also looked up owners using public records (depending on the last name).  It seems that in some cases that has worked well for renters/owners.


----------



## lawboy2001

waltonmkb said:


> How can he change the terms of the agreement in order for you to get what you paid for?



He can't, on his own.  That's why he needs you to click 'accept' so you agree to the new terms and you have a new deal with him.


----------



## lawboy2001

cm8 said:


> I am also not a lawyer. Can someone please explain how they can make changes to an original contract, then say that this new one goes in place of the one thrown out?  Wouldn’t that require all parties to agree and sign acknowledging such?



They can't make unilateral changes to the contract, but if the renters click 'accept' to the voucher offer, the renter agrees to David's new terms and there is a new agreement with David's agreed to by both parties.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DGsAtBLT said:


> So I, as an individual renter, should be okay with potentially throwing away thousands of dollars out of pity, but David’s, a company who is (was) arguably the leader in this space had no responsibility to have contingency plans for these kinds of things nor should they consider the financial plight of all their renters who are also living through this same pandemic.
> 
> It’s ironic that renters have been condescendingly told they should have got insurance (many did), known the risks of renting, etc. but David’s was fine to operate in this space for years apparently without a solid plan for this type of scenario or any proper insurance that could cover it.


Trip insurance probably would not have helped in this situation.  Even as an owner, if you bought the trip insurance they are not paying out because owners have the option to move their lost points into RCI, so from Travelex's point of view you didn't lose your points, so no payout.  Now I suppose if you have an impacted April UY maybe they got paid out from the insurance if they had it, but I haven't seen anyone post that they were reimbursed by Travelex.


----------



## cm8

lawboy2001 said:


> They can't make unilateral changes to the contract, but if the renters click 'accept' to the voucher offer, the renter agrees to David's new terms and there is a new agreement with David's agreed to by both parties.


Thank you! In that case, earlier suggestions to ignore would be appropriate.


----------



## banzai75

As the renter, how do I find the contact info for my owner? The only thing in my contract is their name and it's a pretty common name? Plus I have two owners listed on my contract.


----------



## lawboy2001

lpereira said:


> I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
> Davids  DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
> Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.



Someone mentioned that David's is listed as a sole proprietorship with the BBB.  I looked at my contract with him, and it is with "David Mullett" so I believe I don't have a contract with any corporate entity.


----------



## JETSDAD

lawboy2001 said:


> Someone mentioned that David's is listed as a sole proprietorship with the BBB.  I looked at my contract with him, and it is with "David Mullett" so I believe I don't have a contract with any corporate entity.


That LLC isn't David's, it's a different rental company.


----------



## Brian Noble

Cyberc1978 said:


> In this case what is the “right” thing? Owners have only received 70% of the pay but renters have paid 100%. IMO owners and renters could bypass David’s but I would ask that the renter pay the remaining 30% as that is what the owners haven’t received. It’s of no concern to the owner that the renter have already paid 100%.


I think that has to be determined based on each individual's framework. But, thinking about it, this is what I would probably do (and this is entirely hypothetical, because I am not actually in this situation):

First, none of the parties are at fault. All three got caught in an unfortunate and painful situation. So, the moral principle I would try to follow is to "share the pain" as equitably as possible. Second, I assume an owner is never going to see that 30%, and a renter is never going to see either a reservation through or a refund from the broker. That's because I assume the broker goes out of business sooner rather than later. Third, based on the broker's actions, the broker has demonstrated no willingness to share the pain of either owners or renters--the broker putting themselves first and only. Given that, I no longer believe I am morally obligated to the broker. Fourth, I do not want to personally attend the theme parks before herd immunity is established or a vaccine is available.

Given those assumptions: 

As a hypothetical owner, I would contact the renter and recommend that they pursue a chargeback. If they were unwilling or unsuccessful, I'd do what I could to work with the renter to rebook given the limitations on my points and the timeline of resorts opening. I'd also ask the renter to consider splitting the loss of the 30% with me, but I wouldn't insist on it--that would be a decision they have to make in their own framework.  If the renter was unsuccessful in their chargeback and decided they did not want to go, I would be inclined to at least split the 70% with them--and would give them more if I had significant use of the points left--based on the "shared pain" principle.

If the renter were able to obtain a chargeback, I would wish them well, and ask that they consider splitting the 30% with me. Again, that would be their decision and one I cannot make for them. As we say around the tables in recovery, we don't take others' inventory.

As a hypothetical renter, I would pursue a chargeback the instant my check-in date passed, independently of whether the owner reaches out. If the chargeback is successful, _and_ the owner reaches out, I would offer to split the owner's 30% loss and have us both call it a day. If the chargeback is unsuccessful, and the owner reached out, I would decline an offer to rebook. Instead, I'd ask the owner whether they'd be willing to share any of the 70% with me, and to consider how much use of the points they have remaining in making that decision.

------------------------
The most interesting question is what would I do if I were the hypothetical broker? I've not been putting myself in that perspective, but have instead been thinking from that of owners and renters. So, what would I do?

First, I would assume that, no matter what I do, a non-trivial number of renters are going to win chargebacks, and a non-trival number of owners will walk with both their points and the 70%. That means bankruptcy is inevitable. If that's true, then I am going to go through the pain of bankruptcy eventually. That puts me in a position to minimize shared pain by declaring bankruptcy earlier rather than later. If I declare, renters with travel insurance can collect on the supplier-default clause, including those with reservations in the future. The rest may or may not be made whole via chargebacks, but I can probably sleep at night, because they were advised to have insurance but declined.

In unwinding the company, I'd try to take whatever proceeds I still had and create as generous a severance package for my employees as I could, because they are probably facing the most pain out of the set of owners/renters/employees. Luckily, I am in Canada, so that doesn't have to include paying COBRA premiums. But, I would want to give them each several months of severance if I could, so that they have some chance of landing on their feet. Then, with the proceeds I had left, I would try to pay off the owners with check-in dates in the past to whom I still owe the 30%. I'm not sure how to best do that, because I probably don't have cash on hand to pay them all. Do I do it in order of expiration? Do I give each of them a percentage? Not sure. Maybe it all goes to employees depending on how much we are talking about. I may also have some obligations to past renters, who can't collect on their insurance--I was in business then, and their policies probably don't cover public health emergencies--and I don't know what to do there.

No matter how I made these decisions, I'd try to be transparent about them with all parties. For example, I would explain *why* I was declaring bankruptcy--to maximize the chance that they can be made whole through insurance. I would explain to everyone *why* I was paying my employees first. That way, even though this business is failing, there is a chance that I have enough good will left that I can start over with better thought-out policies to deal with these sorts of situations.


----------



## merry_nbright

BWV Dreamin said:


> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.



What is Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts? Is this booking at any of the Resorts on property without points?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

banzai75 said:


> As the renter, how do I find the contact info for my owner? The only thing in my contract is their name and it's a pretty common name? Plus I have *two owners listed on my contract*.


The plot thickens... surely David's doesn't combine points from multiple owners?  I don't see how that could be possible because the renter would have two separate reservations and would possibly have to change rooms (would be hard to link two completely different reservations).  

That would also turn the convoluted 3-way contracts into a tangled jumble of who knows what?

Maybe they are co-owners of the same DVC membership?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I reached out to David’s about my April rental before Disney closed to see if they wanted to reschedule David contacted renters and informed them I was willing to reschedule 
I also contacted the renter myself who was very happy I contacted them and had no idea about what was going on nor do they understand DVC 
Weeks later David’s stop responding to renter - renter has forward emails to me from David’s 
As far as I’m concerned I have their dates and plan on rebooking them - I hold no hope in getting my 30% on this rental - my point -David’s agreed in writing to me assisting this renter - the fact that he stopped communication does not change this - all parties agreed to change to documents - I am keeping my 70% and should get my 30% when they check in but doubt I will 
I have a June and Sept rental - both are for large amount of points - my 30% will be over $2,000 - do I believe I will get it ? No and I will not accept a travel credit in place of my money - I will not cancel and will rebook if Disney is closed I also will tell David’s but I will not be doing a voucher and would advise renters not to take it.
I also have a rental for May with David’s that he refused to address with me after several emails - this rental is over $2,400 and yes I took insurance and no it’s not covered as the insurance clearly states it will not cover anything closed because if the Government - the hotel is Aulani which Hawaii is under stay until May 20 - hotel closed - flights cancelled - even if I could get there I would have to be confined to my hotel for 14 days and right back on plane - not allowed to leave room at all - well no room as hotel is closed - I gave him several chances to rebook then asked for refund - after final rude response I called Chase - per Chase they said I had a good case. We shall see. 
As others have stated I’m not a lawyer but I do know you can’t change a signed contract unless all parties agree so his voucher is null and void and he should be told as such. It is an insult to all other parties involved and frankly I’m shocked as far as I’m concerned his ship has sunk and I really can’t say what I think he should do with his voucher as I would be kicked off the DiS! 
I wish I would never have done any business with him - lesson learned going forward if I can’t use my points I plan to donate them!
Thank you all for all the wonderful help and advice in this thread !!!


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Brian Noble said:


> I think that has to be determined based on each individual's framework. But, thinking about it, this is what I would probably do (and this is entirely hypothetical, because I am not actually in this situation):
> 
> First, none of the parties are at fault. All three got caught in an unfortunate and painful situation. So, the moral principle I would try to follow is to "share the pain" as equitably as possible. Second, I assume an owner is never going to see that 30%, and a renter is never going to see either a reservation through or a refund from the broker. That's because I assume the broker goes out of business sooner rather than later. Third, based on the broker's actions, the broker has demonstrated no willingness to share the pain of either owners or renters--the broker putting themselves first and only. Given that, I no longer believe I am morally obligated to the broker. Fourth, I do not want to personally attend the theme parks before herd immunity is established or a vaccine is available.
> 
> Given those assumptions:
> 
> As a hypothetical owner, I would contact the renter and recommend that they pursue a chargeback. If they were unwilling or unsuccessful, I'd do what I could to work with the renter to rebook given the limitations on my points and the timeline of resorts opening. I'd also ask the renter to consider splitting the loss of the 30% with me, but I wouldn't insist on it--that would be a decision they have to make in their own framework.  If the renter was unsuccessful in their chargeback and decided they did not want to go, I would be inclined to at least split the 70% with them--and would give them more if I had significant use of the points left--based on the "shared pain" principle.
> 
> If the renter were able to obtain a chargeback, I would wish them well, and ask that they consider splitting the 30% with me. Again, that would be their decision and one I cannot make for them. As we say around the tables in recovery, we don't take others' inventory.
> 
> As a hypothetical renter, I would pursue a chargeback the instant my check-in date passed, independently of whether the owner reaches out. If the chargeback is successful, _and_ the owner reaches out, I would offer to split the owner's 30% loss and have us both call it a day. If the chargeback is unsuccessful, and the owner reached out, I would decline an offer to rebook. Instead, I'd ask the owner whether they'd be willing to share any of the 70% with me, and to consider how much use of the points they have remaining in making that decision.
> 
> ------------------------
> The most interesting question is what would I do if I were the hypothetical broker? I've not been putting myself in that perspective, but have instead been thinking from that of owners and renters. So, what would I do?
> 
> First, I would assume that, no matter what I do, a non-trivial number of renters are going to win chargebacks, and a non-trival number of owners will walk with both their points and the 70%. That means bankruptcy is inevitable. If that's true, then I am going to go through the pain of bankruptcy eventually. That puts me in a position to minimize shared pain by declaring bankruptcy earlier rather than later. If I declare, renters with travel insurance can collect on the supplier-default clause, including those with reservations in the future. The rest may or may not be made whole via chargebacks, but I can probably sleep at night, because they were advised to have insurance but declined.
> 
> In unwinding the company, I'd try to take whatever proceeds I still had and create as generous a severance package for my employees as I could, because they are probably facing the most pain out of the set of owners/renters/employees. Luckily, I am in Canada, so that doesn't have to include paying COBRA premiums. But, I would want to give them each several months of severance if I could, so that they have some chance of landing on their feet. Then, with the proceeds I had left, I would try to pay off the owners with check-in dates in the past to whom I still owe the 30%. I'm not sure how to best do that, because I probably don't have cash on hand to pay them all. Do I do it in order of expiration? Do I give each of them a percentage? Not sure. Maybe it all goes to employees depending on how much we are talking about. I may also have some obligations to past renters, who can't collect on their insurance--I was in business then, and their policies probably don't cover public health emergencies--and I don't know what to do there.
> 
> No matter how I made these decisions, I'd try to be transparent about them with all parties. For example, I would explain *why* I was declaring bankruptcy--to maximize the chance that they can be made whole through insurance. I would explain to everyone *why* I was paying my employees first. That way, even though this business is failing, there is a chance that I have enough good will left that I can start over with better thought-out policies to deal with these sorts of situations.


I like your solution. It gets the owners and renters talking. Each situation may be unique and how the parties can come to some agreement will differ.


----------



## merry_nbright

How do you find the email address of the person you rented from? I’m interested in reaching out if need be.


----------



## banzai75

First, I wanted to thank everyone on here for enlightening me on this process.  I am going to try a chargeback and just wondering what info I should include in my dispute.  

Would you recommend I include the voucher information? Or do I just stick to the original contract information since said travel accomodations were not provided.


----------



## lpereira

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I am not sure if Dave is DVC-rental LLC.  Someone had posted Dave is a sole proprietor and there was no LLC in Canada.  Did you check the assumed name act or something?


That came directly from Davids website I thought but it appears I grabbed the wrong one. Interestingly Davids doesnt list his on his website but you are required to have such registration in Florida when dealing with timeshare rentals.


----------



## Brian Noble

banzai75 said:


> First, I wanted to thank everyone on here for enlightening me on this process.  I am going to try a chargeback and just wondering what info I should include in my dispute.
> 
> Would you recommend I include the voucher information? Or do I just stick to the original contract information since said travel accomodations were not provided.


I would also include the voucher, as it supplies evidence that you've asked for and not received a refund.


----------



## cmrdgrs

merry_nbright said:


> How do you find the email address of the person you rented from? I’m interested in reaching out if need be.


I'm pretty sure based on what I've read that your contract with David only gives you their name.  If their name is not unique it will be pretty hard to track them down, and even then, you would have to work pretty hard to find them.  Some renters have done this anyway.


----------



## cm8

Brian Noble said:


> I would also include the voucher, as it supplies evidence that you've asked for and not received a refund.


I agree and I would also highlight that his”credit” has zero cash value....


----------



## cmrdgrs

banzai75 said:


> First, I wanted to thank everyone on here for enlightening me on this process.  I am going to try a chargeback and just wondering what info I should include in my dispute.
> 
> Would you recommend I include the voucher information? Or do I just stick to the original contract information since said travel accomodations were not provided.


Good luck!


----------



## Marionnette

banzai75 said:


> As the renter, how do I find the contact info for my owner? The only thing in my contract is their name and it's a pretty common name? Plus I have two owners listed on my contract.


Take a look at the Rental Agreement email that you got from them after you paid for the rental. It may have been sent to you as a group email that included the owner. You might be able to contact the owner that way.


----------



## Dracula

Brian Noble said:


> I think that has to be determined based on each individual's framework. But, thinking about it, this is what I would probably do (and this is entirely hypothetical, because I am not actually in this situation):
> 
> First, none of the parties are at fault. All three got caught in an unfortunate and painful situation. So, the moral principle I would try to follow is to "share the pain" as equitably as possible. Second, I assume an owner is never going to see that 30%, and a renter is never going to see either a reservation through or a refund from the broker. That's because I assume the broker goes out of business sooner rather than later. Third, based on the broker's actions, the broker has demonstrated no willingness to share the pain of either owners or renters--the broker putting themselves first and only. Given that, I no longer believe I am morally obligated to the broker. Fourth, I do not want to personally attend the theme parks before herd immunity is established or a vaccine is available.
> 
> Given those assumptions:
> 
> As a hypothetical owner, I would contact the renter and recommend that they pursue a chargeback. If they were unwilling or unsuccessful, I'd do what I could to work with the renter to rebook given the limitations on my points and the timeline of resorts opening. I'd also ask the renter to consider splitting the loss of the 30% with me, but I wouldn't insist on it--that would be a decision they have to make in their own framework.  If the renter was unsuccessful in their chargeback and decided they did not want to go, I would be inclined to at least split the 70% with them--and would give them more if I had significant use of the points left--based on the "shared pain" principle.
> 
> If the renter were able to obtain a chargeback, I would wish them well, and ask that they consider splitting the 30% with me. Again, that would be their decision and one I cannot make for them. As we say around the tables in recovery, we don't take others' inventory.
> 
> As a hypothetical renter, I would pursue a chargeback the instant my check-in date passed, independently of whether the owner reaches out. If the chargeback is successful, _and_ the owner reaches out, I would offer to split the owner's 30% loss and have us both call it a day. If the chargeback is unsuccessful, and the owner reached out, I would decline an offer to rebook. Instead, I'd ask the owner whether they'd be willing to share any of the 70% with me, and to consider how much use of the points they have remaining in making that decision.
> 
> ------------------------
> The most interesting question is what would I do if I were the hypothetical broker? I've not been putting myself in that perspective, but have instead been thinking from that of owners and renters. So, what would I do?
> 
> First, I would assume that, no matter what I do, a non-trivial number of renters are going to win chargebacks, and a non-trival number of owners will walk with both their points and the 70%. That means bankruptcy is inevitable. If that's true, then I am going to go through the pain of bankruptcy eventually. That puts me in a position to minimize shared pain by declaring bankruptcy earlier rather than later. If I declare, renters with travel insurance can collect on the supplier-default clause, including those with reservations in the future. The rest may or may not be made whole via chargebacks, but I can probably sleep at night, because they were advised to have insurance but declined.
> 
> In unwinding the company, I'd try to take whatever proceeds I still had and create as generous a severance package for my employees as I could, because they are probably facing the most pain out of the set of owners/renters/employees. Luckily, I am in Canada, so that doesn't have to include paying COBRA premiums. But, I would want to give them each several months of severance if I could, so that they have some chance of landing on their feet. Then, with the proceeds I had left, I would try to pay off the owners with check-in dates in the past to whom I still owe the 30%. I'm not sure how to best do that, because I probably don't have cash on hand to pay them all. Do I do it in order of expiration? Do I give each of them a percentage? Not sure. Maybe it all goes to employees depending on how much we are talking about. I may also have some obligations to past renters, who can't collect on their insurance--I was in business then, and their policies probably don't cover public health emergencies--and I don't know what to do there.
> 
> No matter how I made these decisions, I'd try to be transparent about them with all parties. For example, I would explain *why* I was declaring bankruptcy--to maximize the chance that they can be made whole through insurance. I would explain to everyone *why* I was paying my employees first. That way, even though this business is failing, there is a chance that I have enough good will left that I can start over with better thought-out policies to deal with these sorts of situations.


Thank you for taking the time to write such a well-thought post. I agree that the framework you are suggesting may work, but would still like to point a few pitfalls:

As a renter, pursuing a chargeback may ruin the chance of getting a voucher, and not getting the money back either. David seems to insist that his reservations are non-refundable, and he may prevail in court. It may be best to wait to understand how other chargeback actions have gone.

As an owner, rebooking or reimbursing the renter goes against the contract the owner has with David. As long as David upholds his part of the contract, there is no good reason for an owner to breach.

As a broker, David operated under his own name, and any bankruptcy proceeding would need to be a personal bankruptcy. Also, Ontario does not have COBRA, but has an ESA law about how much severance employees need to get (and it is quite a lot after 5 years of employment). Furthermore, once bankruptcy is declared I think David would actually be prohibited from reimbursing any of his creditors (owner, renters, landlords etc) without the express approval of the bankruptcy court.


----------



## Sandisw

merry_nbright said:


> What is Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts? Is this booking at any of the Resorts on property without points?



Correct.


----------



## merry_nbright

Sandisw said:


> Correct.


oh my word, you just MADE MY DAY!
I can rebook then at Caribbean Beach Resort for my dates and use all my travel credit without the hassle. I’m going to cry. YOU ROCK!!!


----------



## Sandisw

merry_nbright said:


> oh my word, you just MADE MY DAY!
> I can rebook then at Caribbean Beach Resort for my dates and use all my travel credit without the hassle. I’m going to cry. YOU ROCK!!!



Yes, just know that it doesn’t give you the benefits of cancellation as a cash guest,  You would still be bound by the no cancel rule, and be prepared for the possibility that the rate he quotes you may be rack rate and not include any discounts,  

But, I hope it works out for you!


----------



## Grnl706

Sandisw said:


> Yes, just know that it doesn’t give you the benefits of cancellation as a cash guest,  You would still be bound by the no cancel rule, and be prepared for the possibility that the rate he quotes you may be rack rate and not include any discounts,
> 
> But, I hope it works out for you!


That's actually a good point. If you take a cash booking and Disney has a discount, you can't change ANYTHING and may end up paying more.


----------



## merry_nbright

Sandisw said:


> Yes, just know that it doesn’t give you the benefits of cancellation as a cash guest,  You would still be bound by the no cancel rule, and be prepared for the possibility that the rate he quotes you may be rack rate and not include any discounts,
> 
> But, I hope it works out for you!



It really did! I figured there would be no discounts and we don’t plan on cancelling. It just gives me so many more options and I don’t have to worry about points or availability or anything like that. Tears of joy, my friend. I was so beyond stressed about this, but this has helped me in so many ways. I’d much rather stay at a moderate then be put into a DVC room I don’t really want for only part of my trip.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Dracula said:


> As long as David upholds his part of the contract, there is no good reason for an owner to breach.


I agree that owners should be careful about breaching the contract (even with good intentions), which could put them at increased legal risk.

That said, there seems to be some question whether David's _has _upheld his part of the contract.  Depending on how one interprets the 30% being paid on the date of check-in (whether or not the renter checks in), you could argue that he's in breach for not paying owners the remaining 30%.  

I understand the argument that because resorts were closed, the renter _couldn't_ check in.  But there hasn't been a legal determination whether the "_date _of check-in" is still the date they were _supposed _to check in. That's when the contract establishes that the 30% will be paid.

Normally, if the renter is a no-show, the 30% is still payable on the date they were supposed to check in.  The contract establishes that the _date _of check-in is when the 30% is payable.  If there were other reasons the renter couldn't check in, the date that their check-in was _supposed _to occur doesn't change and the owner gets paid.  

This establishes a precedent (along with marketing material boasting that the owner gets paid *whether the renter checks in or not*). The contract didn't provide the caveat that this only applies if the renter cannot check-in because of some reasons but not others. 

This, again boils down to poorly written contracts that didn't clearly take resort closures into account.


----------



## Brian Noble

Dracula said:


> As a renter, pursuing a chargeback may ruin the chance of getting a voucher, and not getting the money back either.


I think that's correct. However, because I assume that the broker will be out of business shortly, I put zero value on the voucher. 



Dracula said:


> As an owner, rebooking or reimbursing the renter goes against the contract the owner has with David.


Agreed. However, I would no longer feel beholden to that contract based on the broker's actions to date. I believe working directly with the renter is morally preferable to trying to honor that contract. I think the chances of the broker obtaining relief from me are low, and would be willing to take that chance. Someone in a different risk position might choose differently.



Dracula said:


> As a broker, David operated under his own name, and any bankruptcy proceeding would need to be a personal bankruptcy. Also, Ontario does not have COBRA, but has an ESA law about how much severance employees need to get (and it is quite a lot after 5 years of employment). Furthermore, once bankruptcy is declared I think David would actually be prohibited from reimbursing any of his creditors (owner, renters, landlords etc) without the express approval of the bankruptcy court.


Thanks for the background on Canadian employement law; I did not know that! Yes, it would be a personal bankrupty. But, in my hypothetical I believe that to be inevitable. In that case, minimize-/share-pain suggests that the sooner I do that, the better for reasons I suggested above. Plus, it leaves more resources for me to meet my obligations to my employees which, as a business owner, I would want to meet first.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

merry_nbright said:


> It really did! I figured there would be no discounts and we don’t plan on cancelling. It just gives me so many more options and I don’t have to worry about points or availability or anything like that. Tears of joy, my friend. I was so beyond stressed about this, but this has helped me in so many ways. I’d much rather stay at a moderate then be put into a DVC room I don’t really want for only part of my trip.


I really don't want to be a downer, but one additional concern to consider... if you accept the voucher and use it for a "cash stay" (no points involved), you still have to make sure you understand these clauses from his terms and conditions:



> Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
> 
> In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and *no modification, cancelations or rebooking* will be permitted.


In other words, even if _*you *_don't cancel, if resorts are still closed, or close again on your dates, you are out of luck.


----------



## Amymouse13

So this whole PayPal chargeback thing to owners... Say what?  What if you close that PayPal account?  Move any money out and yeah good luck David??


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> So this whole PayPal chargeback thing to owners... Say what?  What if you close that PayPal account?  Move any money out and yeah good luck David??



Pay Pal charge back is not available  for this type of transaction.


----------



## Amymouse13

McCrae said:


> Pay Pal charge back is not available  for this type of transaction.



I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them?  I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.


----------



## merry_nbright

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I really don't want to be a downer, but one additional concern to consider... if you accept the voucher and use it for a "cash stay" (no points involved), you still have to make sure you understand these clauses from his terms and conditions:


Sadly, I’m out of luck if I don’t agree with it, anyways. So, why not go to a resort I want that I don’t really need to worry about availability? This is truly the best option for me.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them?  I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.


Real Estate related transactions are exempted by Pal Pal for payment protection.
As long as owners don’t break the terms of the contract they have with David’s he has No claim against them.


----------



## starry_solo

Amymouse13 said:


> I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them?  I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.



PayPal doesn't cover timeshare transactions....which _really _means for the person that got the funds from David's, they are SOL.  PayPal will point to their clause that they don't cover those transactions, which means the _owner_ should not have received the funds from David's.

This should also work for the renter, because _David's shouldn't _have received the funds from the renter that way.  There is a thread here or in *********** that someone who used PayPal for timeshare transactions (as the one receiving the funds) got their account frozen until the $13,000 was returned.

The prior poster seems to think that since PayPal doesn't cover timeshare transactions, they won't become involved.  But the problem is, if the transaction itself is VOID (under PayPal policies), the person who sent the money is the one who is made whole by PayPal.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Amymouse13 said:


> I thought owners were concerned David's would come after them?  I suppose for the 70% under breach of contract.


If he does, I think owners would make the case that he already breached the contract by not paying the remaining 30% on the "_date _of check-in, _whether or not_ the renter checked-in."


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

The only thing Dave has at stake is the commission.   And a good argument it was earned.  Dave also has the commission in  his hand.  He does not need to be made whole and it certainly appears that Dave is determined to remain whole while others sink.


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## McCrae

Where in Pay Pals conditions does it state they will void a transaction and return funds to the originator for a time share related transaction?


----------



## Amymouse13

I'm not talking about renter paid with PayPal, was related to of owners worked with renter if David would go after the owner and get back from PayPal... So like what if they closed account lol...

Another note, did every renter impacted get the voucher email? I didn't but we also did chargeback back in March as soon as the owner cancelled them.  We would have checked in yesterday.  

I'm in the David's owes me boat .


----------



## banzai75

How much does Dave make off of these transactions besides the $133 booking fee?


----------



## Madame

McCrae said:


> Where in Pay Pals conditions does it state they will void a transaction and return funds to the originator for a time share related transaction?


For me it was more the interpretation that owners are the « sellers » and David’s the « buyer » and $ would be returned to the buyer.  I think most of these types of sites side with the purchaser of the goods/services.  I’m not sure about the whole Timeshare aspect.


----------



## piccolopat

lpereira said:


> I keep seeing where David's contracts state they are governed under Canada law. The state of Florida might differ. Especially given that Davids recognizes he is subject to Florida law when he registered with them. States generally have mechanisms in place to businesses from jurisdiction hopping to bypass their consumer laws. Or employment laws. Etc.
> Davids  DVC-RENTAL LLC is registered with the State of Florida as a Seller of Travel. Registration No. ST42053.
> Im willing to bet you could file on him in Florida.



I would try to file a complaint with the state of Florida.  If David's doesn't do right by renters and owners alike, Florida could revoke their registration and not allow him to do business in the state any longer.  That would be powerful leverage to force him to do the right thing here.  Renters whose reservations could not be honored should be reimbursed in cash.  Owners should have their points returned (whether they have value or not at this point in time is a different issue IMHO).  David's may or may not be able to retain their commission but I would venture to guess no.  There may be a non-cancellation clause with no refund, but that could never have been reasonably expected to apply in cases where the resort closed down through no fault of owners or renters.  David's wrote the contract so any deficiencies in the contract are his problem to bear.


----------



## banzai75

Amymouse13 said:


> I'm not talking about renter paid with PayPal, was related to of owners worked with renter if David would go after the owner and get back from PayPal... So like what if they closed account lol...
> 
> Another note, did every renter impacted get the voucher email? I didn't but we also did chargeback back in March as soon as the owner cancelled them.  We would have checked in yesterday.
> 
> I'm in the David's owes me boat .



Can you keep us updated on your chargeback status? Curious as to how many of these will get approved.


----------



## tubtruck

piccolopat said:


> I would try to file a complaint with the state of Florida.  If David's doesn't do right by renters and owners alike, Florida could revoke their registration and not allow him to do business in the state any longer.  That would be powerful leverage to force him to do the right thing here.  Renters whose reservations could not be honored should be reimbursed in cash.  Owners should have their points returned (whether they have value or not at this point in time is a different issue IMHO).  David's may or may not be able to retain their commission but I would venture to guess no.  There may be a non-cancellation clause with no refund, but that could never have been reasonably expected to apply in cases where the resort closed down through no fault of owners or renters.  David's wrote the contract so any deficiencies in the contract are his problem to bear.


David does business in Canada, it has nothing to do with Florida, just like if I set up a timeshare rental firm in the UK selling Florida rentals, no government body anywhere in the USA could do anything about it even if they didn't like what I was doing as like in Canada they have zero jurisdiction here.


----------



## we"reofftoneverland

This is a really interesting discussion.  We are owners and have never rented our points but we did contact David’s once to look into it.  He sent us the contract and we never signed.  We decided not to rent our points because the contract made us a bit nervous.  We did not tell David’s that.  Instead, we politely declined and said we may rent our points at a future date.  DAVID’S DID NOT RESPOND AT ALL.  At that point we knew we had dodged a bullet.  No professional entity would just not respond to someone who might be a future customer.  But back to the discussion... DH does contract law, so out of boredom this morning I pulled up the email with the contract David’s had sent us a few months ago and we looked at it.  DH said, that, even though it is an awful contract (which is why we never signed it), the way he reads it in this case, the owner should get the 70% payment because he made the reservation for the renter and did not cancel it.  That is clearly stated in the contract.  The renter should get the rest of the 30% designated for the owner because technically check in was not possible.  And, begrudgingly, David should keep his payment, although that is up for debate.  He did facilitate the reservation and monies, but did he do his job fully?  The contract is written in favor of the owner, and the renter is getting a “deal” by taking on more risk.  Obviously, a decent contract would discuss what would happen in extreme situations, but David’s is obviously not very well run.
The subsequent agreement that someone posted that David’s is trying to get people to sign is also very poorly written and gives no security to renters.  How is he paying for the future rentals?  He is trying to get renters to give up what little rights they had in the first contract.  He should be giving additional future “credit” if that is the case.  As a renter,  if it is possible to get back the 30% due the owner, that is the least risky path.  What would that be?  Is it about $5 a point?  David’s should have that money in an escrow account, ready to pay the owner, so it should be easy to pay it to the renter.  But I wonder if he even has that money or if he was running a quasi ponzi scheme.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

banzai75 said:


> How much does Dave make off of these transactions besides the $133 booking fee?



I believe it’s $4.50 per point.


----------



## piccolopat

tubtruck said:


> David does business in Canada, it has nothing to do with Florida, just like if I set up a timeshare rental firm in the UK selling Florida rentals, no government body anywhere in the USA could do anything about it even if they didn't like what I was doing as like in Canada they have zero jurisdiction here.


Yes but since David's had to registered with the state of Florida, there is obvious a connection to the state of Florida whether he likes it or not.  If Florida revokes his registration, he may not be able to do business wit FL timeshares anymore.


----------



## tubtruck

They wont be able to stop him doing business, he is not in the USA.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

piccolopat said:


> I would try to file a complaint with the state of Florida.  If David's doesn't do right by renters and owners alike, Florida could revoke their registration and not allow him to do business in the state any longer.  That would be powerful leverage to force him to do the right thing here.  Renters whose reservations could not be honored should be reimbursed in cash.  Owners should have their points returned (whether they have value or not at this point in time is a different issue IMHO).  David's may or may not be able to retain their commission but I would venture to guess no.  There may be a non-cancellation clause with no refund, but that could never have been reasonably expected to apply in cases where the resort closed down through no fault of owners or renters.  David's wrote the contract so any deficiencies in the contract are his problem to bear.



Not sure if it’s just how I’m reading this so apologies if you knew this, but owners points being returned have nothing to do with David’s. That is on DVC and is being done, the usefulness of those points are a different story but that’s probably veering a bit off topic.

Owners are out the 30% remaining of their portion of the rental that David’s holds until check in.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

DGsAtBLT said:


> Owners are out the 30% remaining of their portion of the rental that David’s holds until check in.


That he's supposed to be holding only until the *date *of check-in (whether or not the renter checks in).


----------



## momincolorado

we"reofftoneverland said:


> This is a really interesting discussion.  We are owners and have never rented our points but we did contact David’s once to look into it.  He sent us the contract and we never signed.  We decided not to rent our points because the contract made us a bit nervous.  We did not tell David’s that.  Instead, we politely declined and said we may rent our points at a future date.  DAVID’S DID NOT RESPOND AT ALL.  At that point we knew we had dodged a bullet.  No professional entity would just not respond to someone who might be a future customer.  But back to the discussion... DH does contract law, so out of boredom this morning I pulled up the email with the contract David’s had sent us a few months ago and we looked at it.  DH said, that, even though it is an awful contract (which is why we never signed it), the way he reads it in this case, the owner should get the 70% payment because he made the reservation for the renter and did not cancel it.  That is clearly stated in the contract.  The renter should get the rest of the 30% designated for the owner because technically check in was not possible.  And, begrudgingly, David should keep his payment, although that is up for debate.  He did facilitate the reservation and monies, but did he do his job fully?  The contract is written in favor of the owner, and the renter is getting a “deal” by taking on more risk.  Obviously, a decent contract would discuss what would happen in extreme situations, but David’s is obviously not very well run.
> The subsequent agreement that someone posted that David’s is trying to get people to sign is also very poorly written and gives no security to renters.  How is he paying for the future rentals?  He is trying to get renters to give up what little rights they had in the first contract.  He should be giving additional future “credit” if that is the case.  As a renter,  if it is possible to get back the 30% due the owner, that is the least risky path.  What would that be?  Is it about $5 a point?  David’s should have that money in an escrow account, ready to pay the owner, so it should be easy to pay it to the renter.  But I wonder if he even has that money or if he was running a quasi ponzi scheme.


Agreed and I can tell you that in my case (renter),  David’s agreed to refund the 30% to me. Apparently, the owner’s points used are expiring at the end of May and according to David’s, owner is refusing to refund the 70%. David’s refund to me was for 30% of the total amount paid so it included a portion of his commission but not all of it. The question is what to do about the remaining 70% that they are, per an e-mail from one of his daughters (who appears to be lacking some basic customer service skills), refusing to refund. It appears that my options are either this credit (with ridiculous terms and with the understanding that David’s is likely to make even more money from this) or a chargeback.


----------



## starry_solo

McCrae said:


> Where in Pay Pals conditions does it state they will void a transaction and return funds to the originator for a time share related transaction?



There isn't going to be a specific location in the user agreement.

Recipients of funds (aka "sellers") are bound by the seller protection policy here:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protectionand
elsewhere

*What isn’t covered by Seller Protection?*
Most PayPal transactions are covered as long as they follow these requirements. However, there are instances where Seller Protection doesn’t apply:

Claims, chargebacks, or reversals filed because the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one).
*Intangible purchases like services, digital goods, etc.*
Items picked up locally or in person.
Transactions made through PayPal Direct, Virtual Terminal, PayPal Business, or PayPal Here.
Instances where you receive multiple payments for an item.
Claims filed directly through an eBay account.
Prohibited items such as drug paraphernalia, ammunition/firearms, or counterfeit goods.
First Class Mail International, since the receipt only shows the address the order was delivered to – not the customer's address.
Donations
These eligibility requirements for coverage can also be found in the Seller Protection section of our User Agreement.

Portion of user agreement

*Refunds, Reversals and Chargebacks*
*General information*
If you receive a payment for selling goods or services that is later refunded or invalidated for any reason, you are responsible for the full amount of the payment sent to you plus any fees (including any applicable chargeback fee described below). Whenever a transaction is refunded or otherwise reversed, PayPal will refund or reverse the transaction from your PayPal account. If a currency conversion is necessary (for example if the balance in your Cash Account or your business PayPal account for a particular currency is insufficient to cover the amount of a refund or reversal, or if the buyer paid in a different currency), PayPal will perform a currency conversion in order to refund or reverse the transaction. PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) at the time the refund or reversal is processed will be used.
If you refund a payment for goods or services, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller are not returned to you. The amount of the refunded payment will be deducted from your PayPal account.

*Payments that are invalidated and reversed*
Payments to you may be invalidated and reversed by PayPal if:

You lose a PayPal Purchase Protection claim submitted to us by a buyer, including as a result of your failure to respond in a timely manner.
You lose a Venmo Protected Purchase Program claim.
Your buyer pursues a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction and the transaction is not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. The card issuer, not PayPal, determines whether a buyer is successful when they pursue a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction.
You do not fulfill the transaction as promised or you cannot provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery when required.
eBay decides against you under its money back guarantee program (and you haven’t opted out).
Our investigation of a bank reversal made by a buyer or the buyer’s bank finds that the transaction was fraudulent.
PayPal sent the payment to you in error.
The payment was unauthorized
*You received the payment for activities that violated this user agreement or any other agreement between you and PayPal.*
So, likely, David's sent payment as "Goods and Services."  The owner cannot show that a tangible item was sold (a reservation is not a "tangible" item) so the owner cannot show shipment to the confirmed shipping address.

So, then we go to *services*.  David's sent payment for services (a reservation) that is not available anymore (due to the closure of the resort).

But then, wait?  Does it qualify under PayPal's buyer/purchase protection policy?!  Well, no.  But what happens?  A smart buyer would have sent payment with their credit card, not via their bank account.  I know that when one of my friend's used David's, she did not (and still does not) have a PayPal account.  So, even though she "paid" through PayPal, she really used her credit card to fund the payment.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#s2-purchase-protection
*Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program*
Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Real estate, including residential property.

There are times when PayPal will rule in favor of the buyer but not charge the seller.  I doubt this is going to be one of those times.  As I mentioned in my prior post, there is a thread here or in *********** where the owner of points used PayPal numerous times and got his PayPal account frozen for engaging in these unauthorized activities.  He didn't get PayPal to release the hold on his account until he reimbursed people their funds, to the tune of $13,000.


----------



## McCrae

momincolorado said:


> Agreed and I can tell you that in my case (renter),  David’s agreed to refund the 30% to me. Apparently, the owner’s points used are expiring at the end of May and according to David’s, owner is refusing to refund the 70%. David’s refund to me was for 30% of the total amount paid so it included a portion of his commission but not all of it. The question is what to do about the remaining 70% that they are, per an e-mail from one of his daughters (who appears to be lacking some basic customer service skills), refusing to refund. It appears that my options are either this credit (with ridiculous terms and with the understanding that David’s is likely to make even more money from this) or a chargeback.


Thats interesting as an owner David’s didnt give me the option to refund the renter. He was only willing to give the renter a voucher and wanted to keep for himself any refund I would make.


----------



## disneypharm

we"reofftoneverland said:


> DH does contract law, so out of boredom this morning I pulled up the email with the contract David’s had sent us a few months ago and we looked at it.  DH said, that, even though it is an awful contract (which is why we never signed it), the way he reads it in this case, the owner should get the 70% payment because he made the reservation for the renter and did not cancel it.  That is clearly stated in the contract.  The renter should get the rest of the 30% designated for the owner because technically check in was not possible.  And, begrudgingly, David should keep his payment, although that is up for debate.  He did facilitate the reservation and monies, but did he do his job fully?  The contract is written in favor of the owner, and the renter is getting a “deal” by taking on more risk.  Obviously, a decent contract would discuss what would happen in extreme situations, but David’s is obviously not very well run.
> The subsequent agreement that someone posted that David’s is trying to get people to sign is also very poorly written and gives no security to renters.  How is he paying for the future rentals?  He is trying to get renters to give up what little rights they had in the first contract.  He should be giving additional future “credit” if that is the case.  As a renter,  if it is possible to get back the 30% due the owner, that is the least risky path.  What would that be?  Is it about $5 a point?  David’s should have that money in an escrow account, ready to pay the owner, so it should be easy to pay it to the renter.  But I wonder if he even has that money or if he was running a quasi ponzi scheme.



I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract.  The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!! 
"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "


----------



## DGsAtBLT

McCrae said:


> Thats interesting as an owner David’s didnt give me the option to refund the renter. He was only willing to give the renter a voucher and wanted to keep for himself any refund I would make.



I think this showcases what a major problem here has been.

They have not had a unified response. People have been told no refunds period (and then this changed to credits), people have been told refunds if points are re-rented, people like the previous poster have been told a portion can be refunded. Owners have been told many different things as well, like about where the money goes if refunded. A small number of owners have apparently been able to receive their full payment while others haven’t. Some have been told thanks for working it out with your renter, others have been told do not contact. They seem to be making it up as they go.

They have been a mess which instills absolutely no confidence in anyone. I’m sure this is not helping at all with the actions both owners and renters are choosing to take and is certainly not helping anyone make decisions that could benefit David’s, which is obviously what they want.


----------



## McCrae

starry_solo said:


> There isn't going to be a specific location in the user agreement.
> 
> Recipients of funds (aka "sellers") are bound by the seller protection policy here:
> https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protectionand
> elsewhere
> 
> *What isn’t covered by Seller Protection?*
> Most PayPal transactions are covered as long as they follow these requirements. However, there are instances where Seller Protection doesn’t apply:
> 
> Claims, chargebacks, or reversals filed because the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one).
> *Intangible purchases like services, digital goods, etc.*
> Items picked up locally or in person.
> Transactions made through PayPal Direct, Virtual Terminal, PayPal Business, or PayPal Here.
> Instances where you receive multiple payments for an item.
> Claims filed directly through an eBay account.
> Prohibited items such as drug paraphernalia, ammunition/firearms, or counterfeit goods.
> First Class Mail International, since the receipt only shows the address the order was delivered to – not the customer's address.
> Donations
> These eligibility requirements for coverage can also be found in the Seller Protection section of our User Agreement.
> 
> Portion of user agreement
> 
> *Refunds, Reversals and Chargebacks*
> *General information*
> If you receive a payment for selling goods or services that is later refunded or invalidated for any reason, you are responsible for the full amount of the payment sent to you plus any fees (including any applicable chargeback fee described below). Whenever a transaction is refunded or otherwise reversed, PayPal will refund or reverse the transaction from your PayPal account. If a currency conversion is necessary (for example if the balance in your Cash Account or your business PayPal account for a particular currency is insufficient to cover the amount of a refund or reversal, or if the buyer paid in a different currency), PayPal will perform a currency conversion in order to refund or reverse the transaction. PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) at the time the refund or reversal is processed will be used.
> If you refund a payment for goods or services, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller are not returned to you. The amount of the refunded payment will be deducted from your PayPal account.
> 
> *Payments that are invalidated and reversed*
> Payments to you may be invalidated and reversed by PayPal if:
> 
> You lose a PayPal Purchase Protection claim submitted to us by a buyer, including as a result of your failure to respond in a timely manner.
> You lose a Venmo Protected Purchase Program claim.
> Your buyer pursues a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction and the transaction is not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. The card issuer, not PayPal, determines whether a buyer is successful when they pursue a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction.
> You do not fulfill the transaction as promised or you cannot provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery when required.
> eBay decides against you under its money back guarantee program (and you haven’t opted out).
> Our investigation of a bank reversal made by a buyer or the buyer’s bank finds that the transaction was fraudulent.
> PayPal sent the payment to you in error.
> The payment was unauthorized
> *You received the payment for activities that violated this user agreement or any other agreement between you and PayPal.*
> So, likely, David's sent payment as "Goods and Services."  The owner cannot show that a tangible item was sold (a reservation is not a "tangible" item) so the owner cannot show shipment to the confirmed shipping address.
> 
> So, then we go to *services*.  David's sent payment for services (a reservation) that is not available anymore (due to the closure of the resort).
> 
> But then, wait?  Does it qualify under PayPal's buyer/purchase protection policy?!  Well, no.  But what happens?  A smart buyer would have sent payment with their credit card, not via their bank account.  I know that when one of my friend's used David's, she did not (and still does not) have a PayPal account.  So, even though she "paid" through PayPal, she really used her credit card to fund the payment.
> 
> https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#s2-purchase-protection
> *Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program*
> Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:
> 
> Real estate, including residential property.
> 
> There are times when PayPal will rule in favor of the buyer but not charge the seller.  I doubt this is going to be one of those times.  As I mentioned in my prior post, there is a thread here or in *********** where the owner of points used PayPal numerous times and got his PayPal account frozen for engaging in these unauthorized activities.  He didn't get PayPal to release the hold on his account until he reimbursed people their funds, to the tune of $13,000.



The renter did not pay the owner for the rental of points using PayPal , they paid David’s. Any charge back through a credit card and pay pal would be between David’s and the renter.

It is likely David’s  made a cash transfer to owner using pay pal.  Therefore a credit card charge back through pay pal won’t happen. Still don’t see how David’s would get a payback through Pay pal from an owner.


----------



## LawrenceFamily

The thing I cant get my head around is why the 30% is being held by David? 

Upon making a booking, the renter pays $20 per point for a booking over 7 months in advance. $4.5 per point stays with David and $15.50 is allocated to the owner. 

However, only 70% of that $15.50 per point is given to the owner at the point of reservation and 30% is held until the day of check in to ensure that the owner keeps their side of the deal and ensures the booking is upheld. 

As the booking is non-refundable, the 30% is paid to the owner regardless of whether or not the renter has checked in.  

At this point, David has already received his total fee ($4.5 * points needed for booking) so he has no claim to the 30%. 

Even in the contract that we have recently signed with them as an owner, it makes no reference to not being paid the 30% if the resort is not open. It clearly states that an owner will receive the remaining 30% "at the time of check-in". 

This indicates that at 3pm on the day of checkin, the balance should be paid to the owner, regardless. 

Lets use and example for a booking using 200 points:

David's fee is $900 ($4.50 * 200)
30% of the $15.5 on a 200 point reservation is $930

David will have kept that $930 in account for between 7-11 months, generating interest and helping with cashflow. But like others have said, this money should really be in ESCROW. We do a similar thing in the UK when we rent properties and we store a renters deposit in a TDP Scheme. I was surprised when we realised this wasn't the case with our agreement with David's

If David is refusing the owners their 30%, I would imagine he'll be having a number of lawsuits against him, because legally he has no right whatsoever to withhold it if the day of checkin has passed on the reservation.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

disneypharm said:


> I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract.  The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!!
> "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "


This, again, highlights the biggest problem (IMHO) that David has on his hands... he made guarantees to both the owner and the renter that they would get 100% but never considered that resorts being closed would put him on the hook to fulfill those promises to both parties.


----------



## McCrae

DGsAtBLT said:


> I think this showcases what a major problem here has been.
> 
> They have not had a unified response. People have been told no refunds period (and then this changed to credits), people have been told refunds if points are re-rented, people like the previous poster have been told a portion can be refunded. Owners have been told many different things as well, like about where the money goes if refunded. A small number of owners have apparently been able to receive their full payment while others haven’t. Some have been told thanks for working it out with your renter, others have been told do not contact. They seem to be making it up as they go.
> 
> They have been a mess which instills absolutely no confidence in anyone. I’m sure this is not helping at all with the actions both owners and renters are choosing to take and is certainly not helping anyone make decisions that could benefit David’s, which is obviously what they want.



I am in wait and see mode. I want to help, but if I can’t help my original renter am not sure it makes sense for me to re rent my points. I could still have an obligation to the original renter.


----------



## LawrenceFamily

disneypharm said:


> I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract.  The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!!
> "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival* due to an action or omission by the Owner*, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "



Covid-19 isnt an action or omission by the owner so this clause wouldn't be valid in this instance.

Nowhere in the renters agreement does it say that if accomodation is not secured, a full refund will be given. 

The refund is only given in the event that the owner goes against their agreement (i.e cancels the room, doesn't pay their dues or misses mortgage payments causing the room to be cancelled by Disney), in which case, David would refund the renter on full as the 70% plus costs and fees would be re-payable by the owner, as per the agreement the owner has with David.


----------



## tubtruck

A complication with paypal is you have used the US paypal rules. In all likelyhood they will be different in Canada, just like they are here in the UK. It all depends on each countries different banking laws.

Here are uk rules on refunds, which countries rules they use, who knows.

These are the purchases PayPal Buyer Protection doesn't cover.

Real estate.
Motorised vehicles and industrial machinery.
Custom-made goods that are significantly not as described.
Stored value items such as gift cards and pre-paid cards.
Items that violate our policies.
Anything bought in person (not over the internet).
Send Money transactions to friends or family.
Disputes filed more than 180 days after the purchase for item not received and significantly not as described claims.
Items that have sustained normal wear and tear and items that were described accurately by the seller.
PayPal cannot assist you with filing or enforcing a warranty claim with your seller or the original manufacturer. Similarly, PayPal’s Buyer protection cannot resolve issues around the lack of warranty or product registration materials. This protection is limited to the item itself.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Grumpy by Birth said:


> This, again, highlights the biggest problem (IMHO) that David has on his hands... he made guarantees to both the owner and the renter that they would get 100% but never considered that resorts being closed would put him on the hook to fulfill those promises to both parties.



I know it’s easy to say now knowing what we do, but this really surprises me. A pandemic with resorts closing for months and months was probably not something most of us would have predicted happening, even hurricanes have not historically closed the resorts, but what would have happened if a fire had taken out the majority of rooms in a DVC resort? Not out of the question in resorts with few or even one building.

Obviously he would have been dealing with a smaller number of reservations impacted so maybe he thought it could be dealt with on a case by case basis, but if private renters had the sense to have clauses in their contracts to cover these types of scenarios, what the heck David’s?


----------



## Sandisw

LawrenceFamily said:


> The thing I cant get my head around is why the 30% is being held by David?
> 
> Upon making a booking, the renter pays $20 per point for a booking over 7 months in advance. $4.5 per point stays with David and $15.50 is allocated to the owner.
> 
> However, only 70% of that $15.50 per point is given to the owner at the point of reservation and 30% is held until the day of check in to ensure that the owner keeps their side of the deal and ensures the booking is upheld.
> 
> As the booking is non-refundable, the 30% is paid to the owner regardless of whether or not the renter has checked in.
> 
> At this point, David has already received his total fee ($4.5 * points needed for booking) so he has no claim to the 30%.
> 
> Even in the contract that we have recently signed with them as an owner, it makes no reference to not being paid the 30% if the resort is not open. It clearly states that an owner will receive the remaining 30% "at the time of check-in".
> 
> This indicates that at 3pm on the day of checkin, the balance should be paid to the owner, regardless.
> 
> Lets use and example for a booking using 200 points:
> 
> David's fee is $900 ($4.50 * 200)
> 30% of the $15.5 on a 200 point reservation is $930
> 
> David will have kept that $930 in account for between 7-11 months, generating interest and helping with cashflow. But like others have said, this money should really be in ESCROW. We do a similar thing in the UK when we rent properties and we store a renters deposit in a TDP Scheme. I was surprised when we realised this wasn't the case with our agreement with David's
> 
> If David is refusing the owners their 30%, I would imagine he'll be having a number of lawsuits against him, because legally he has no right whatsoever to withhold it if the day of checkin has passed on the reservation.



Because Davids knows he has a problem with his contract with the renter to potentially refund the money since there is no reservation.

He is saying that because check in didn’t happen, the owner is no longer due the 30% and is now trying to say the entire contract with the owner has been frustrated and therefore, owner owes money back,

He needs that to happen so he can use that money to pay cover the cost of the voucher.

It is a mess for sure,  Nothing an owner can do to get that 30% except sue Davids foe it.  I think most will just walk away,


----------



## disneypharm

LawrenceFamily said:


> Covid-19 isnt an action or omission by the owner so this clause wouldn't be valid in this instance.
> 
> Nowhere in the renters agreement does it say that if accomodation is not secured, a full refund will be given.
> 
> The refund is only given in the event that the owner goes against their agreement (i.e cancels the room, doesn't pay their dues or misses mortgage payments causing the room to be cancelled by Disney), in which case, David would refund the renter on full as the 70% plus costs and fees would be re-payable by the owner, as per the agreement the owner has with David.


This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views.  No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher.  I am not going to argue with you about it!


----------



## DGsAtBLT

disneypharm said:


> This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views.  No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher.  I am not going to argue with you about it!



Yeah, I think the lengths they are going through to “help” renters is because they think their contract is not going to hold up with reservations being cancelled so they are trying to prevent people doing things like chargebacks. I believe if they felt their contract was sound they would not risk pissing off their owners, who I’m guessing have a bigger impact on their business than pissed off renters, and they would have left it alone if modifications could not be made to reservations.

I think (from my non lawyer perspective) the most important part of the contract from the renters POV is not the portion that talks about when you’re entitled to a refund, but that it clearly states it’s for a reservation at X resort between X and Y. There’s no reservation anymore.


----------



## Sandisw

disneypharm said:


> This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views.  No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher.  I am not going to argue with you about it!



What owners are saying, though, that the renter may be entitled to a refund from Davids, not the owner,  The owner has met all the terms of the contract they have,

His voucher system is because he knows he would be responsible to the renter, and is trying to stop charge backs, while at the same time trying to back out of the contract he has with the owner,

Remember, there are owners on here who have stared they would refund if going to the renter, and Davids has responded that they will be keeping the money,  So, even if owners want to refund, Davids has stated renters will not get it.


----------



## disneykins

Lots of angles to this thing and it doesn't sound like there will be any winners.
What would have happened say 6 months ago I, as an owner had rented to someone through Davids and then I didn't make my maintenance payment. My reservation for the renter would be cancelled and David would want my 70% payment back. What was his recourse if I refused?


----------



## LawrenceFamily

disneypharm said:


> This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views.  No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher. * I am not going to argue with you about it!*



Bit strong - I'm not arguing with you at all 

But I personally don't think a renter has a case in court to get a full refund based on the agreement they signed.  

I think David's will be offering a voucher to save their reputation and business. It's a good will gesture as a way to ensure their customers stay happy and continue to use them in the future.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal.  And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed.  And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it.  David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit.  Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have.  This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points.  The yellow highlight was in the original.

_"*if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed* we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest. 

To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)
_

_The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:   (_1-6 deleted by me_)_












*Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner*

 

_When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club *you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association membe*r. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.

*Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."*_




McCrae said:


> The renter did not pay the owner for the rental of points using PayPal , they paid David’s. Any charge back through a credit card and pay pal would be between David’s and the renter.
> 
> It is likely David’s  made a cash transfer to owner using pay pal.  Therefore a credit card charge back through pay pal won’t happen. Still don’t see how David’s would get a payback through Pay pal from an owner.


----------



## tubtruck

disneykins said:


> Lots of angles to this thing and it doesn't sound like there will be any winners.
> What would have happened say 6 months ago I, as an owner had rented to someone through Davids and then I didn't make my maintenance payment. My reservation for the renter would be cancelled and David would want my 70% payment back. What was his recourse if I refused?


I guess he would probably have just sucked it up, the fact someone had not paid their maintenance would mean it was highly likely they would be unable to pay up even if sued.


----------



## momincolorado

McCrae said:


> Thats interesting as an owner David’s didnt give me the option to refund the renter. He was only willing to give the renter a voucher and wanted to keep for himself any refund I would make.


I don't think the owner was given the option to refund me in this case either. I was informed by David's a couple of weeks back that the points used were expiring and that I would get a voucher, at which point I began to fight for a refund. From what I can tell, they are most worried about the chargebacks. I made it very clear that I am not particularly interested in his voucher scheme; the initial contract in place is for accommodations, which he did not deliver. I am not interested in revising this contract under the current proposed terms. I am VERY interested in walking away from this mess (IMO, the company is incredibly poorly run) as soon as the final resolution has been reached and never use him again. First time using him as I usually rent from a friend.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

My guess is they anticipated any issues they encountered (pre covid) to be limited to a small number of reservations they could fix for that renter and then eat the loss beyond the portion they held, rather than worrying about going after individual owners for relatively small amounts.


----------



## McCrae

.


----------



## Minniemoo15

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal.  And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed.  And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it.  David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit.  Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have.  This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points.  The yellow highlight was in the original.
> 
> _"*if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed* we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.
> 
> To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
> In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)_
> 
> 
> _The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:   (_1-6 deleted by me_)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner*
> 
> 
> 
> _When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club *you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association membe*r. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.
> 
> *Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."*_



That is...incredible.

I have used Davids as a renter multiple times, and then as an owner when we bought into DVC. I spoke so highly of them to others and recommended them to many friends and family.
I can’t believe how they are treating and alienating their owners. Renters aren’t getting treated well either with this credit that you have one shot to use-it-or-lose-it.

Wow. I almost can’t even believe this is the same company that I have dealt with for years. How disappointing. I definitely will not be doing business with them going forward. Good Will is their biggest asset - they were pretty much universally praised basically everywhere online before this. Seems they have lost quite a bit of that in this mess.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal.  And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed.  And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it.  David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit.  Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have.  This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points.  The yellow highlight was in the original.
> 
> _"*if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed* we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.
> 
> To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
> In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)_
> 
> 
> _The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:   (_1-6 deleted by me_)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner*
> 
> 
> 
> _When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club *you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association membe*r. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.
> 
> *Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."*_



I haven’t received this type of email. I was asked if I would be willing to help. I asked about potential liability and received an email from David’s saying I didn’t need to refund the 70%. As far as David‘s were concerned I had completed my contractual obligations.


----------



## disneypharm

LawrenceFamily said:


> Bit strong - I'm not arguing with you at all
> 
> But I personally don't think a renter has a case in court to get a full refund based on the agreement they signed.
> 
> I think David's will be offering a voucher to save their reputation and business. It's a good will gesture as a way to ensure their customers stay happy and continue to use them in the future.


My apologies but I have read the same discussion over and over again in this thread.  I just disagree with your assessment as it is not just a goodwill gesture.  He is also trying to avoid all the chargebacks.


----------



## Dracula

momincolorado said:


> I don't think the owner was given the option to refund me in this case either. I was informed by David's a couple of weeks back that the points used were expiring and that I would get a voucher, at which point I began to fight for a refund. From what I can tell, they are most worried about the chargebacks. I made it very clear that I am not particularly interested in his voucher scheme; the initial contract in place is for accommodations, which he did not deliver. I am not interested in revising this contract under the current proposed terms. I am VERY interested in walking away from this mess (IMO, the company is incredibly poorly run) as soon as the final resolution has been reached and never use him again. First time using him as I usually rent from a friend.


Just curious, if this was to happen with points rented from your friend, and David was not involved at all, how would you have worked things out?


----------



## LawrenceFamily

I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.

It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!

It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own. 

My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

LawrenceFamily said:


> I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.
> 
> It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!
> 
> It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own.
> 
> My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.



Knowing what I know now I do not trust his own website for reviews.

Near the beginning of this he removed reviews from the Facebook page, It was becoming filled with negative reviews. Whoever runs the page also has been deleting anything in comments that are not positive, even legitimate questions that indirectly point out negative aspects of this.

I was always someone who praised them in the past. I’m now wondering how they treated customers who faced issues with their experience, or if for years they have been lucky with little issues coming up that could be blamed on them once reservations had been made (I think that’s plausible). I had good experiences in the past but also nothing going wrong that needed rectifying.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> _When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club *you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association membe*r. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.
> 
> *Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."*_



Posters here have made a similar case (i.e., that owners are responsible for the closures, even if indirectly).  In the end, that may very well be how this all pans out.  But the fact that he is flat out telling owners now that they are, essentially in breach of the contract because "they" cancelled the reservation indicates that he may be getting desperate and may start playing hardball to get all of "his" money back from owners.



Minniemoo15 said:


> Wow. I almost can’t even believe this is the same company that I have dealt with for years.


Survival instinct.  Every penny he has (not to mention many he's already spent) is on the line.


----------



## Madame

LOL!  They are literally reading through this thread and throwing our suppositions at us .  They are scrambling to try to save the business and destroying it with their one-size-fits-all ridiculous voucher scheme. 

Why in the world are they not looking at which situations are salvageable (eg owner can return funds with points still usable, or owners who can rebook their renter)???  Dealing with those, then seeing which situations are a write off and  making renters whole themselves??? They’re all over the map!!!  And they’ve had a month to start to sort this out


----------



## disneykins

LawrenceFamily said:


> I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.
> 
> It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!
> 
> It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own.
> 
> My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.


All valid points but I don't think anyone here will agree with you. Davids is a mom and pop kind of operation, small, simple office space not in a high rent building. I think I read they have about 30 employess.
I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He is trying to do something to help all parties. He could have just walked away, declared bankruptcy and left us all hanging. I don't know if his solution is the best, its probably the best he could come up with and stay in business. There probably needs to be some compromise on all sides, but I don't know what that looks like.


----------



## Madame

disneykins said:


> All valid points but I don't think anyone here will agree with you. Davids is a mom and pop kind of operation, small, simple office space not in a high rent building. I think I read they have about 30 employess.
> I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He is trying to do something to help all parties. He could have just walked away, declared bankruptcy and left us all hanging. I don't know if his solution is the best, its probably the best he could come up with and stay in business. There probably needs to be some compromise on all sides, but I don't know what that looks like.


It’s not Mom & Pop.  Bankruptcy would probably help renters with their chargebacks.  It is possible that the bankruptcy of the business would lead to personal bankruptcy as well due to Canadian law.  He’s trying to save himself.


----------



## LawrenceFamily

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Posters here have made a similar case (i.e., that owners are responsible for the closures, even if indirectly.  In the end, that may very well be how this all pans out.  But the fact that he is flat out telling owners now that they are, essentially in breach of the contract because "they" cancelled the reservation indicates that he may be getting desperate and may start playing hardball to get all of "his" money back from owners.
> 
> 
> Survival instinct.  *Every penny he has (not to mention many he's already spent) is on the line.
> *




You say that but last week we rented points with them for next February - the points went live one day, the agreement was secured the next day and I had received 70 of the money in my account the next day. 

If money was a problem, surely they wouldn't have passed me the 70% of my agreement so quickly?

I'm concerned with what im reading on here but my experience has been pretty positive so far. I just hope the hotels are open by February 2021! Haha.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

disneykins said:


> All valid points but I don't think anyone here will agree with you. Davids is a mom and pop kind of operation, small, simple office space not in a high rent building. I think I read they have about 30 employess.
> I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He is trying to do something to help all parties. He could have just walked away, declared bankruptcy and left us all hanging. I don't know if his solution is the best, its probably the best he could come up with and stay in business. There probably needs to be some compromise on all sides, but I don't know what that looks like.



Many of us on both sides did attempt to give the benefit of the doubt but the way this has been handled has been frustrating at best. Eventually people are going to put their own best interests first.

I bet being communicative and open could have bought them some goodwill and faith. And of course there are still a number of people who are happy with the credit.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

LawrenceFamily said:


> If money was a problem, surely they wouldn't have passed me the 70% of my agreement so quickly?


I was alluding to what Madame also referred to above... that he is now also facing personal bankruptcy due to the way his company is set up.  My comment about money he's already spent was a bit of a jab about his somewhat extravagant vacations that were posted all over social media.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

Madame said:


> LOL!  They are literally reading through this thread and throwing our suppositions at us .  They are scrambling to try to save the business and destroying it with their one-size-fits-all ridiculous voucher scheme.
> 
> Why in the world are they not looking at which situations are salvageable (eg owner can return funds with points still usable, or owners who can rebook their renter)???  Dealing with those, then seeing which situations are a write off and  making renters whole themselves??? They’re all over the map!!!  And they’ve had a month to start to sort this out


Well, he last logged in on a Wednesday morning.  He and his minions have been regulars here.


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----------



## momincolorado

Dracula said:


> Just curious, if this was to happen with points rented from your friend, and David was not involved at all, how would you have worked things out?


For my reservation, David's used June 2018 use year points that have already been banked into the 2019 use year and will exp on May 31, 2020. Not something I would expect my friend would do. Nevertheless, in the event of resorts closure and assuming that I would find myself in this situation, I would propose to split the losses between us. In this case, in two separate e-mails to David's, I have specifically suggested seeing if a compromise could be worked out among the 3 parties. David's was not interested and kept pushing the voucher idea instead. It now appears he is also putting pressure on the owners (at least some owners) for the 70% arguing contract frustration etc. I have no way of knowing who, at this point, has the 70%. Is it the still owner or did the money go back to David's? Either way, it's clear that David's has a cash flow problem so I seriously question the value of the so-called credit. This leaves chargeback as the only viable option.


----------



## Sandisw

LawrenceFamily said:


> You say that but last week we rented points with them for next February - the points went live one day, the agreement was secured the next day and I had received 70 of the money in my account the next day.
> 
> If money was a problem, surely they wouldn't have passed me the 70% of my agreement so quickly?
> 
> I'm concerned with what im reading on here but my experience has been pretty positive so far. I just hope the hotels are open by February 2021! Haha.



The money you got paid came from a new renter. So, he had to send you that as had he not, he would have had to refund the renter right away, as you would have canceled the reservation.


----------



## Dracula

momincolorado said:


> For my reservation, David's used June 2018 use year points that have already been banked into the 2019 use year and will exp on May 31, 2020. Not something I would expect my friend would do. Nevertheless, in the event of resorts closure and assuming that I would find myself in this situation, I would propose to split the losses between us. In this case, in two separate e-mails to David's, I have specifically suggested seeing if a compromise could be worked out among the 3 parties. David's was not interested and kept pushing the voucher idea instead. It now appears he is also putting pressure on the owners (at least some owners) for the 70% arguing contract frustration etc. I have no way of knowing who, at this point, has the 70%. Is it the still owner or did the money go back to David's? Either way, it's clear that David's has a cash flow problem so I seriously question the value of the so-called credit. This leaves chargeback as the only viable option.


Thank you for the answer. I am really interested how these 2-party transactions work out, especially between friends, and especially with expiring points. Assuming the price of the “friendly“ point was $16, do you think your friend would have refunded $8, or maybe $4 (allocating the first $8 to the annual fees, then splitting the remaining $8)?


----------



## starry_solo

For owners who have been paid by David's (through PayPal), look up your transaction history with PayPal and see what it shows up as.,...family/friends or goods/services.

NOTE: If David's does go the PayPal dispute route, he is going to expose his account to PayPal as violating the user agreement and it will likely get frozen.....


----------



## lawboy2001

Grumpy by Birth said:


> The plot thickens... does David's combined points from multiple owners?  I don't see how that could be possible because the renter would have two separate reservations and would possibly have to change rooms (would be hard to link two completely different reservations).  Maybe they are co-owners of the same DVC membership?



No.  The two owners on that renters contract is simply because they are the two owners of the DVC contact.  David's doesn't commingle points.


disneypharm said:


> I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract.  The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!!
> "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "



Yes, the poster was referring to the owners' contract.  And clearly, under the renters' contract, the renter is due a full refund.  So that refund can be funded from the 30% held back from the owners, and the rest....from wherever David can scrounge it up!


----------



## McCrae

starry_solo said:


> For owners who have been paid by David's (through PayPal), look up your transaction history with PayPal and see what it shows up as.,...family/friends or goods/services.
> 
> NOTE: If David's does go the PayPal dispute route, he is going to expose his account to PayPal as violating the user agreement and it will likely get frozen.....


In my history it has no description. Other companies do.


----------



## lawboy2001

LawrenceFamily said:


> You say that but last week we rented points with them for next February - the points went live one day, the agreement was secured the next day and I had received 70 of the money in my account the next day.
> 
> If money was a problem, surely they wouldn't have passed me the 70% of my agreement so quickly?
> 
> I'm concerned with what im reading on here but my experience has been pretty positive so far. I just hope the hotels are open by February 2021! Haha.



I believe David's charges renters 20$ a point now.  So if you rented 100 points with him, the renter gave him 2000$ and David's gave you 70% of $15.50 (1085$), meaning that as a result of your transaction, David's now has 900$ in increased cash flow.  That's why your transaction was so smooth.  Whether it was a good transaction in the end, depends on if David's is around in February to pay you your 30% holdback funds.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I have been giving David all credit for trying to help fix a bad situation.  Not anymore.  

Size and mom/pop are not that important to me now because he is really treading close to the area between lying and hoping.

He is a not a company, if he goes bankrupt his house and cars go with.



disneykins said:


> All valid points but I don't think anyone here will agree with you. Davids is a mom and pop kind of operation, small, simple office space not in a high rent building. I think I read they have about 30 employess.
> I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He is trying to do something to help all parties. He could have just walked away, declared bankruptcy and left us all hanging. I don't know if his solution is the best, its probably the best he could come up with and stay in business. There probably needs to be some compromise on all sides, but I don't know what that looks like.


----------



## Sandisw

starry_solo said:


> For owners who have been paid by David's (through PayPal), look up your transaction history with PayPal and see what it shows up as.,...family/friends or goods/services.
> 
> NOTE: If David's does go the PayPal dispute route, he is going to expose his account to PayPal as violating the user agreement and it will likely get frozen.....



Mine says payment received vs. money received from some of my friends and family.  I assume that means its goods and service’s


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

That was great advice and a good starting place.  Thank you.  
I was paid by Capital Technologies but it even has David's picture from the web site next to it.  I do not seeing anything about family/friends or goods/services.  I will be grateful for any further assistance.

*
Capitol Technologies*
Nov 29, 2019Payment Received
Loading transaction details for
*Capitol Technologies*
Nov 29, 2019Payment Received

Paid byCapitol Technologies800-610-5791http://www.dvcrequest.comdavid@dvcrequest.com




starry_solo said:


> For owners who have been paid by David's (through PayPal), look up your transaction history with PayPal and see what it shows up as.,...family/friends or goods/services.
> 
> NOTE: If David's does go the PayPal dispute route, he is going to expose his account to PayPal as violating the user agreement and it will likely get frozen.....


----------



## cmrdgrs

LawrenceFamily said:


> Bit strong - I'm not arguing with you at all
> 
> But I personally don't think a renter has a case in court to get a full refund based on the agreement they signed.
> 
> I think David's will be offering a voucher to save their reputation and business. It's a good will gesture as a way to ensure their customers stay happy and continue to use them in the future.


I have to say I disagree. Just because a contract was drawn and signed by all parties doesn't mean a court might not overturn the agreement and side with the renter (or in this case the Plantiff). I've been in several lawsuits over contracts and have won in court as the Plaintiff.

Contracts are overturned all the time in court. Question is, will anybody sue David's? Probably not.


----------



## CraigInPA

[QUOTE="Sandisw, post: 61796806, member: 217917"
It is a mess for sure,  Nothing an owner can do to get that 30% except sue Davids foe it.  I think most will just walk away,
[/QUOTE]

...And will never rent points through David's again. 

David's has to know that they are killing their supply chain, without which he has no business. Because he is organized as a sole proprietorship,  he is likely facing personal bankruptcy so he will say and do whatever he can to get cash back from the owners (whether supported by the contract terms or not).


----------



## cmrdgrs

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> That was great advice and a good starting place.  Thank you.
> I was paid by Capital Technologies but it even has David's picture from the web site next to it.  I do not seeing anything about family/friends or goods/services.  I will be grateful for any further assistance.
> 
> 
> *Capitol Technologies*
> Nov 29, 2019Payment Received
> Loading transaction details for
> *Capitol Technologies*
> Nov 29, 2019Payment Received
> 
> Paid byCapitol Technologies800-610-5791http://www.dvcrequest.comdavid@dvcrequest.com


This is interesting. For years DVC owners who rent always wondered how David got around the PayPal restrictions for a timeshare rental. I personally know owners who had their PayPal accts frozen over DVC Rentals. Is it possible that David misrepresented the transaction to PayPal?


----------



## JasonV

From the TICO website:



*Do I have any protection if the company that issued my travel voucher goes out of business?*
If you are unable to redeem a voucher or similar document issued by a TICO-registered travel agency or tour operator for future travel services because the TICO-registered travel agency or tour operator has become bankrupt or insolvent or ceased to carry on business and that failure is related to COVID-19, you can make a claim against the Travel Industry Compensation Fund until March 31, 2022.

Coverage under the Travel Industry Compensation Fund has expanded. If you have redeemed a voucher or similar document but the TICO-registered travel agency or tour operator or airline or cruise line becomes bankrupt or ceases operations prior to travel taking place, and travel services are not provided, you can make a Travel Industry Compensation Fund claim, subject to the provisions of the Regulation.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

CraigInPA said:


> [QUOTE="Sandisw, post: 61796806, member: 217917"
> It is a mess for sure,  Nothing an owner can do to get that 30% except sue Davids foe it.  I think most will just walk away,



...And will never rent points through David's again.

David's has to know that they are killing their supply chain, without which he has no business. Because he is organized as a sole proprietorship,  he is likely facing personal bankruptcy so he will say and do whatever he can to get cash back from the owners (whether supported by the contract terms or not).
[/QUOTE]

I agree, I think they do know and their actions have all been last resort because they believe they owe renters money and their contracts will not be enough to stop chargebacks.

If they thought their non refundable contracts held up through resort closure, seems like it would be much better for the long term health of the company to allow nothing but rebooking should it work out on a case by case basis, angering some renters but keeping owners happy. I would guess owners are harder to replace, also considering that plenty of potential renters not seeing anything wrong by standing with standing by their non refundable contracts.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Madame said:


> LOL!  They are literally reading through this thread and throwing our suppositions at us .  They are scrambling to try to save the business and destroying it with their one-size-fits-all ridiculous voucher scheme.
> 
> Why in the world are they not looking at which situations are salvageable (eg owner can return funds with points still usable, or owners who can rebook their renter)???  Dealing with those, then seeing which situations are a write off and  making renters whole themselves??? They’re all over the map!!!  And they’ve had a month to start to sort this out


This is what I've been thinking too. They clearly seem disorganized and inconsistent


----------



## starry_solo

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> That was great advice and a good starting place.  Thank you.
> I was paid by Capital Technologies but it even has David's picture from the web site next to it.  I do not seeing anything about family/friends or goods/services.  I will be grateful for any further assistance.
> 
> 
> *Capitol Technologies*
> Nov 29, 2019Payment Received
> Loading transaction details for
> *Capitol Technologies*
> Nov 29, 2019Payment Received
> 
> Paid byCapitol Technologies800-610-5791http://www.dvcrequest.comdavid@dvcrequest.com



payment received is not good. That usually means goods or services. Open the transaction to see if a fee was taken out.

usually when it’s friends/family, it should say “money received”


----------



## izzy

I’m an owner and have never rented my points before but have considered it. I was planning on using David’s if I did, but you can rest assured that I won’t do that now given how he is treating both the owners and the renters. He is trying to screw both of them.  I think one of the previous posters had it right when they said he is having cash flow problems.  He is trying to grab cash from whoever he can at this point. I predict bankruptcy in the near future as he won’t be able to keep his Ponzi scheme going for very long.


----------



## cvjw

I just looked back thru my PayPal transactions and all the money from David’s say payment received. Money that my son just sent me says money received.


----------



## Madame

Mine is the Canadian version of PayPal (I rarely use it).  Under two transactions with businesses it states « payment » and describes the service / good.  The payment from David’s says « payment received. »  No other details.  And way past six months.  Almost 10.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Thank you, I appreciate your help.

I don't understand how Paypal charge back works but I have only used paypal 1 time since moving the money from David and that was a couple of weeks ago to buy books.

I think removing all financing information from paypal and then ending my account is the safe/best thing to do.  Today I reached out to the renter who said they had no contact from David other than the 'offer for certificate is coming'.

Not only am I starting to believe I don't want to be associated with the way this Dave mess is devolving and misleading people I am starting to see my self interest differently now.



starry_solo said:


> payment received is not good. That usually means goods or services. Open the transaction to see if a fee was taken out.
> 
> usually when it’s friends/family, it should say “money received”


----------



## Dracula

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Thank you, I appreciate your help.
> 
> I don't understand how Paypal charge back works but I have only used paypal 1 time since moving the money from David and that was a couple of weeks ago to buy books.
> 
> I think removing all financing information from paypal and then ending my account is the safe/best thing to do.  Today I reached out to the renter who said they had no contact from David other than the 'offer for certificate is coming'.
> 
> Not only am I starting to believe I don't want to be associated with the way this Dave mess is devolving and misleading people I am starting to see my self interest differently now.


That would not really work, PayPal knows who you are and will notify you in case you need to reimburse them. It may be best to keep the account open, because it is used on many websites, including eBay, and they are more likely to side with a loyal customer. Save a print-out of the website that says that owners get paid the 30% remainder whether the guest checks in or not. I seriously doubt PayPal is going to help David recover payments from thousands of customers for transactions that are excluded by their seller’s protection policy.


----------



## Galun

Madame said:


> No!  If David’s initiated a PayPal chargeback against the owner, the owner will need those funds!   This is not a handshake deal world we live in.



I don't think this is a concern if the owner is not trying to double dip (by keeping the 70% and the refunded points).


----------



## Galun

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal.  And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed.  And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it.  David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit.  Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have.  This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points.  The yellow highlight was in the original.
> 
> _"*if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed* we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.
> 
> To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
> In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)_
> 
> 
> _The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:   (_1-6 deleted by me_)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner*
> 
> 
> 
> _When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club *you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association membe*r. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.
> 
> *Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."*_



If he sent this to an owner, he is desperate and no longer care about goodwill.  This is a sinking ship.

If I were a renter I'd file a chargeback while I still can.


----------



## AaronEuth

Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable.   Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable.  Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.

Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable.  With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.

Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit.  Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.


----------



## Galun

McCrae said:


> In my history it has no description. Other companies do.



He paid owners through payment for goods and services, and avoided transaction fees to the "seller" by paying with a bank account.

As a seller I had dealt with Paypal investigations before.  When the buyer (or seller, it goes both ways) files a dispute, they look for the item and shipment tracking.  Plenty of sellers had been hit by return fraud when the buyer "returns" a package filled with rocks but with tracking, and PayPal ruled against the seller and gave the refund to the buyer.  They care only about tracking number.  This clearly does not apply in this situation.

So they might go after services not performed.  I had never deal with a PayPal investigation for services, but in my experience they will need a description of the services rendered (just like in goods where they need what was sold and tracking).    Well, David's never filled in a description of what the payment was for.  

If the owner is not intentionally trying to double dip (keep the points AND the 70%), I don't think they need to worry too much about a chargeback from PayPal.


----------



## McCrae

AaronEuth said:


> Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable.   Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable.  Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.
> 
> Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable.  With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.
> 
> Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit.  Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.


I don think many owners would sign up for that.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


----------



## suemom2kay

davper said:


> The contract is pretty clear. Unless there is negligence on the part of the member that causes you not to have a room when you arrive, there is no refund. You are encouraged to get insurance for you trip because there are no refunds in case something happens.
> 
> The member can choose to help if they can but they are not obligated to.
> 
> I would allow the renter to reschedule up to when the points expire. I have points rented out for the last week in April and the 1st week in may. The points expire on May 31st. Unless the renter can reschedule to use all before May 31st, they are out of luck.


I bet a court of law would find your thinking flawed.  You can't rent what you don't have.  If the resorts are not open in May you are renting a non-existent reservation and that is awful.  I am an owner and rented several reservations this year.  I have reached out to all of my renters offering rescheduling or refunds.  This is not easy for me, but it is the right thing to do.


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> I bet a court of law would find your thinking flawed.  You can't rent what you don't have.  If the resorts are not open in May you are renting a non-existent reservation and that is awful.  I am an owner and rented several reservations this year.  I have reached out to all of my renters offering rescheduling or refunds.  This is not easy for me, but it is the right thing to do.



Did you rent privately or did you use a broker?


----------



## DisneyBB

Lots of great information on this thread with lots of opinions.

My gut is telling me to contact my renters and ask them what they want to do.  I would love to Reschedule them myself or even refund the 70% directly to them.  However my head is saying that I would open myself up to no end of problems.   Mine is time sensitive so I need to act or lose my points and potentially my money.  

David has said it is ok to contact the renters but should I copy him in to ensure there is no breach?


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> Lots of great information on this thread with lots of opinions.
> 
> My gut is telling me to contact my renters and ask them what they want to do.  I would love to Reschedule them myself or even refund the 70% directly to them.  However my head is saying that I would open myself up to no end of problems.   Mine is time sensitive so I need to act or lose my points and potentially my money.
> 
> David has said it is ok to contact the renters but should I copy him in to ensure there is no breach?



I have similar thoughts to you, but also share concerns about potential new problems we could end up facing.  By going directly to the renters you could end up taking the liability for fixing this problem away from David's and taking it on yourself. You could end up with demands not only for a refund, but additional costs such as flights.

My thought have moved on a bit...my thinking has changed.

We pay David a commission to make renting as easy as possible and avoid dealing with any problems.  Now is his turn to work for the fee he has been paid.

For the renters I think there is a good possibility that they will be able to get a full refund from David's via a credit card charge back. I think they will be fine.

As for David's I don't feel I owe him anything. If anything he owes me money.

I think it makes sense to move on a draw a line under this.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I agree with what is right to do here, in a moral sense.  But David told me the exact opposite.  David does not want me to contact the renter (trip reservation at the end of May).

Yet David told me precisely that if my reservation is cancelled by Disney and David can not re-rent the points by the end of my use year then I lose the 30%.  David has stated repeated the renter will not get any cash refund.

Of the three parties only David has no claim on the 30%.  Yet in writing and in public David has proclaimed he is keeping it.



DisneyBB said:


> Lots of great information on this thread with lots of opinions.
> 
> My gut is telling me to contact my renters and ask them what they want to do.  I would love to Reschedule them myself or even refund the 70% directly to them.  However my head is saying that I would open myself up to no end of problems.   Mine is time sensitive so I need to act or lose my points and potentially my money.
> 
> David has said it is ok to contact the renters but should I copy him in to ensure there is no breach?


----------



## Sandisw

AaronEuth said:


> Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable.   Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable.  Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.
> 
> Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable.  With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.
> 
> Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit.  Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.



If that is the model, I think he will have trouble finding as many owners who will engage with him,

If I decide to rent again, I won’t be using him.  And, if I wanted to, I certainly wouldn’t in a refundable situation.

Id rent on my own and take less.


----------



## disneypharm

DisneyBB said:


> Lots of great information on this thread with lots of opinions.
> 
> My gut is telling me to contact my renters and ask them what they want to do.  I would love to Reschedule them myself or even refund the 70% directly to them.  However my head is saying that I would open myself up to no end of problems.   Mine is time sensitive so I need to act or lose my points and potentially my money.
> 
> David has said it is ok to contact the renters but should I copy him in to ensure there is no breach?


@DisneyBB  Thank you for being so supportive of the renter.  Please be aware that there are several owners on this thread who have clearly mentioned that they might re-rent the returned points and keeping their 70%.  Some of these owners might be giving you advise even though they are not legal experts!  I believe that most owners are like you willing to help but they are afraid to reach out because of these posts.  If you have a time sensitive reservation and David has mentioned that he is ok with you rescheduling the renter, I would urge you to reach out to both Davids and your renter.  Many owners have been successful rescheduling their renters recently.

Just to add, if I were an owner, I will not be sending my 70% to Davids for him to keep and give a voucher to the renter.  Please just try to reschedule the renter.


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyBB said:


> Lots of great information on this thread with lots of opinions.
> 
> My gut is telling me to contact my renters and ask them what they want to do.  I would love to Reschedule them myself or even refund the 70% directly to them.  However my head is saying that I would open myself up to no end of problems.   Mine is time sensitive so I need to act or lose my points and potentially my money.
> 
> David has said it is ok to contact the renters but should I copy him in to ensure there is no breach?



I know it’s a risk to breach, so I would make sure that everyone is in on the conversation and that you get acknowledgement from all once things are done.

I have an August rental and have decided not to breach.  As we get closer, I may contact the renter to let them know the reservstion is secure, regardless of whether or not I get my final payment,

But, if resorts are open, I will let the reservation stay and will no change it, even if it means I lose the 111 points because I don’t want to be in a position to say I have to refund.


----------



## DisneyBB

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I agree with what is right to do here, in a moral sense.  But David told me the exact opposite.  David does not want me to contact the renter (trip reservation at the end of May).
> 
> Yet David told me precisely that if my reservation is cancelled by Disney and David can not re-rent the points by the end of my use year then I lose the 30%.  David has stated repeated the renter will not get any cash refund.
> 
> Of the three parties only David has no claim on the 30%.  Yet in writing and in public David has proclaimed he is keeping it.



It is so confusing.  I was told ok to contact and that if I refunded it would towards the travel voucher.   I would rather the renter got refunded.  But I dont think I am the one in control of this and just want to ensure I don’t, by accident, cause more issues that some how negates the contract.  

So from some of the answers here.  Even if the points are expiring David is still asking for the money back?


----------



## DebbieB

AaronEuth said:


> Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable.   Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable.  Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.
> 
> Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable.  With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.
> 
> Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit.  Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.



If fully refundable, renters would be cancelling if a better deal came along.     Plus nothing upfront, I doubt owners would want their points tied up with no payment.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

DisneyBB said:


> It is so confusing.  I was told ok to contact and that if I refunded it would towards the travel voucher.   I would rather the renter got refunded.  But I dont think I am the one in control of this and just want to ensure I don’t, by accident, cause more issues that some how negates the contract.
> 
> So from some of the answers here.  Even if the points are expiring David is still asking for the money back?


IMO what you are being asked for is a fraud.  It is a possible outcome a renter does not want the voucher but loses a charge back.  If David has the 70% back and does not issue refunds, as Dave has stated, then Dave has his commission and he has all the owners money and lost nothing.  Then he is using the owners money and/or the renter's money to 'fund' other vouchers and/or his salary.


----------



## DisneyBB

Sandisw said:


> I know it’s a risk to breach, so I would make sure that everyone is in on the conversation and that you get acknowledgement from all once things are done.
> 
> I have an August rental and have decided not to breach.  As we get closer, I may contact the renter to let them know the reservstion is secure, regardless of whether or not I get my final payment,
> 
> But, if resorts are open, I will let the reservation stay and will no change it, even if it means I lose the 111 points because I don’t want to be in a position to say I have to refund.



Why wouldn’t you get your final payment?  If the resort is open then the contract is complete.    

The other worry I have is if the renter wants a resort that is too far out to book, will David agree to a open contract that allows me to wait to book? Or will the renter have to choose something that I can book now?   It would be so much easier to do my own thing.


----------



## DisneyBB

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO what you are being asked for is a fraud.  It is a possible outcome a renter does not want the voucher but loses a charge back.  If David has the 70% back and does not issue refunds, as Dave has stated, then Dave has his commission and he has all the owners money and lost nothing.  Then he is using the owners money and/or the renter's money to 'fund' other vouchers and/or his salary.


Quite this is one of my concerns for the renter.


----------



## Marionnette

AaronEuth said:


> Assuming the Rental Broker's survive this, I fully expect that going forward they will have a policy in plain to rent points in the first 8 months of their current use year; and keep reservations fully refundable.   Those points would all be in a state in which they are able to be canceled and bankable.  Payment terms would probably have to be 100% at check in, held in escrow.
> 
> Maybe they will have a section, for distressed points which will be non refundable.  With distressed points being any point that would not be bankable if reservation cancelled.
> 
> Ultimately, I expect the rental market to take a huge hit.  Owners aren't going to be interested in possibly losing points.


David’s has already amended their renter’s agreement to include a force majeure. No refunds, even in the event of an act of God, pandemic, etc.

https://dvcrequest.com/dvc-owners/sample-guest-invoice
_12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations._​
So, it appears that he will continue to offer vouchers with vague terms of use to renters under these conditions. He will not offer a complete refund. And he will continue to screw owners.

Bye bye, David. Good luck getting any owner to allow you to tie up their points for up to 11 months and then tell them “So sad, too bad. I’m covering my own *** but I’ll hang yours out to dry”


----------



## Amymouse13

If David's said the contract is frustrated, would owners be in violation of contract if they worked directly with renter??? There is no contract... So is everything he is saying outside the contract lol


----------



## WanderlustinFP

Hi everyone!

I have a reservation with David's DVC in May and I contacted them earlier this month to see if they can get in touch with the owner to reschedule my trip to a later date. I'm a nurse right in the epicenter of COVID 19, therefore I knew the situation was looking bleak and Disney would not be up and running in May.  They sent me a canned email response just like their replies on Facebook. I know they are inundated with cancelled reservations from March and April, so the chances of them of working on my May reservation is slim to none, but I gave them a head ups to try to work things out with the owner this way they don't lose any points. 

Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in?  I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?


----------



## Dracula

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I agree with what is right to do here, in a moral sense.  But David told me the exact opposite.  David does not want me to contact the renter (trip reservation at the end of May).
> 
> Yet David told me precisely that if my reservation is cancelled by Disney and David can not re-rent the points by the end of my use year then I lose the 30%.  David has stated repeated the renter will not get any cash refund.
> 
> Of the three parties only David has no claim on the 30%.  Yet in writing and in public David has proclaimed he is keeping it.


While the renter would not get a cash refund from David, he would be getting a credit voucher (with some onerous terms, but still a credit voucher). And yes, if the contract is deemed frustrated, it would seem David is entitled to retain the rest of the 30% due to the owner, and use it to fund his travel voucher scheme. The owner would have the recourse to take David to court in Canada, but I doubt it is worth the trouble and the expense for $4 per point. It is an unfortunate situation, and a zero-sum game - everyone has to share in the loss.


----------



## ziravan

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I've read some more stuff and done some more research since I last posted.  I've altered my opinion of things slightly:
> 
> Renters:
> Do a chargeback if you can.  Especially if David's is refusing a refund.  Get made whole.  In my opinion, these vouchers he's offering are funny money in every sense of the word.  Take the cash and use it to rebook your dream vacation on your own terms.  Chances are good you're going to see a LOT of really great deals coming up for travel outside of David's.  You can negotiate a MUCH better deal with MUCH better terms.  The global economy is going to be in recession.  Good deals on vacations and travel are going to be plentiful.  If you are within your 120-day to 180-day window that your credit card allows a chargeback...do it.  I believe your chances of success are high.  Even if David's goes out of business/bankrupt you are still very likely to get your money back.  (See my previous post in this thread about how charge backs work)
> 
> Owners:
> I am not a lawyer, and this is a complicated mess.  This is not legal advice.  In my opinion, David's is probably correct when he says the contract is frustrated.  The legal theory originates in English Common Law and it has equivalents in both US and Canadian law.  The theory is called The Doctrine of Impossibility:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossibility
> 
> Essentially, because David's contracts didn't have a force majeure clause in them, then that usually means the Doctrine of Impossibility applies.  Basically, it states that if it later becomes impossible for one or more parties to a contract to fulfill their obligations, then the whole contract becomes void.  Canada has a similar legal theory called The Doctrine of Frustration.  Reference:  http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96166_01
> 
> If this contract were governed under US law, then the Doctrine of Impossibility would void the contract as a whole, and David's could then sue the owner for unjust enrichment for the amount of money that David's paid the owner.  It is pretty cut and dried as a matter of US law...There are few exceptions to this, and I don't think any of them would apply in this situation.
> 
> But it gets VERY interesting!  The contract between DVC owners and David's covered under Canadian Law!  Here is the relevant "Frustrated Contract Act" that applies in Canada:  http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96166_01
> 
> It boils down to the same GENERAL principle... if a contract cannot be fulfilled by one or more parties to the contract because of an unforeseeable event, then the whole contract is cancelled.  If parts have already been fulfilled, then those parts can stand.  Payment under the contract is not considered one of the "obligations" in respect to partial fulfillment of the obligations....so just because David's has paid you, it's not considered to have partially fulfilled the contract.  Basically, cash can be undone...you can just pay the other guy back...but goods and services are a lot harder to undo.
> 
> BUT...there is a BUT....
> 
> 
> 
> I have bolded the section that I think is relevant here...be sure to expand the quote above to see the whole thing
> 
> Others on this board have said that David's website has explicitly stated that the owner WILL get paid whether the renter checks in or not.  If that's true, then I believe that becomes an implied term of the contract.
> 
> Part of it will also depend on what David's did previously in regards to cancellations beyond the control of both the renter and the owner...hurricanes come to mind.  What did David's do in those situations where a renter couldn't check in?  I know there have been a couple hurricanes that prevent people from checking in while David's has been operating.  If he previously ate the loss and paid owners while refunding the renter, then it could create a history of providing insurance and likely makes David's the one on the hook.
> 
> Another question is what are other rental brokerage services doing?  Are they effecting an insurance against these losses?  If so, David's could get swept up in it.
> 
> Those are all questions for a judge to decide.
> 
> IF the judge decides that there is implied insurance in what David's offered, then David's would likely owe the owner for the full obligation.  i.e. the owner did everything on their end...and David's provided an insurance that the owner would be paid.  The owner would still get paid.  There is a chance that the judge will say that the owner gets to keep the 70% but David's doesn't have to pay the remaining 30% since the contract is frustrated.
> 
> IF the judge decides that the whole contract is frustrated, and voids the whole thing...i.e. there is no implied insurance...this would reverse everything...including any payments that anybody has made...including the payment from David's to the owner.  However... then we go on to the Restitution portion of the law:
> 
> 
> 
> You could claim restitution for your partial performance under the contract.  You booked a reservation and did the things you were required to do that you could still do.  The restitution must only consist of reasonable expenditures.  You cannot take in to account the loss of profits or if you get paid any insurance money.  Additionally, the court would take in to account any benefits which remain with the party claiming restitution (i.e. you got your points back...what is the state of those points...etc)
> 
> IMO, IF your points are in a reasonably good position...they are bankable, not at risk of expiring, etc...then you likely owe David's all of the money back, and can't claim any damages...you MIGHT be able to claim that the points are now worth less than they were originally because a banked point is not as flexible as a current use-year point...etc...But basically:  If DVC made you whole on points, then you don't get to claim restitution on those "expenses" because there weren't any.
> 
> If your points are in one of those weird states where you could still deposit them in to RCI but no longer bank them, then you might be able to make some sort of quasi claim...at least you could claim the booking fees for RCI..I'm not sure but you'd be on shaky ground here.  You might be better off not depositing them in to RCI and letting them expire so you could claim what I theorize below...
> 
> IF your points are in a distressed state...i.e. they are expired, can no longer be banked, were banked points that will expire before the resorts open, etc. or are otherwise generally lost..then you can likely make a claim against David's for costs:
> 
> this means that you could claim reasonable "losses" of your costs on those points.  Probably equal to your cost of purchasing those points for that year from DVC (purchase price of points, divided by number of years in the contract), plus reasonable interest on that money (time value of money), plus the annual dues for those points.  You might be able to add some reasonable cost of your time in booking the reservations, managing, etc...All told, i'd guess you'd get about half the TOTAL money that you would've otherwise been paid by David's for any points that would be lost.
> 
> Again...it's a jumbled mess, and largely depends on your INDIVIDUAL circumstances as an owner.
> 
> At least, that is all my humble opinion as someone who is not really well versed in Canadian Contract Law.  In reality, you should probably talk to a lawyer if it DOES come to that.  I will say it again:  I am not a lawyer and I am not giving legal advice.  I am just a law/contract nerd who watches a lot of REALLY boring YouTube.
> 
> Now with that very interesting Legal hypothesis out of the way...let's get a bit more practical...Let's talk about the feasability of David's actually going after an owner for the money that was paid by David's to the owner.  I am not suggesting that anyone do anything with this information, or take any actions based on my opinion here.  You should definitely consult with a lawyer to get real advice.  This is just a thought experiment I am working through in my head.
> 
> David's ability to actually recover money from an owner he has paid is probably pretty low.  It's already been discussed that it's very likely David's has been paying owners through the "send cash to friends/family" function of PayPal.  If that's true, then that pretty much means that he will be unable to forcibly reverse the transaction via PayPal.  That would've been the "quick and easy" way to get his money back, if it would've been successful.  He will likely actually have to file a law suit and collect on that law suit to get his money back.
> 
> Let's get a bit realistic about actually filing suit against hundreds, if not thousands, of owners.  A lawyer that is advocating for David's is not going to take these cases pro bono.  David's would be required to pay any filing fees up front for all of these suits.  He would also have to pay his lawyer for their cost of preparing and filing the suit up front.  All told, probably a few hundred dollars each...
> 
> Once he files the suit, he has to provide process service to the individual's he is suing.  The people in Canada are probably relatively easy...just hire a process server and get it done.   For the folks in the US, that likely becomes a much more difficult process.  International process service is going to cost more.  Again these are all expenses that David's pays up front.
> 
> Now that process service has happened, the court sets a hearing date...But guess what...the whole world has been shut down for months because of COVID!  The courts are going to be very back logged.  It will likely be many many months, if not a year or more before a court date rolls around.  And that all depends on when courts reopen, and what changes they make to going through cases, and if those changes slow down their ability to handle cases.
> 
> Court date rolls around, you as the owner don't show up...so David's gets a default judgement.  That would likely equal any money he's paid you plus the court costs and interest on that money.  Great...he's now got a piece of paper that says you owe him money.  Now he has to collect.
> 
> If you're in Canada, it's likely much easier...I don't know the ins/outs of Canadian judgement collections, but he can likely garnish your bank account, garnish your wages, and seize any assets you own.
> 
> If you're in the US, it's going to be MUCH harder.  He would then have to file ANOTHER case in a US court to get his Canadian judgement recognized in the US.  It's relatively straight forward, but he would have to hire a US attorney to do it, and that attorney would have to be local to the owner.  Again, additional expense that David's has to pay upfront...likely another few hundred dollars...I think there may be process service as well in this step again...All of this will take time, backlogged courts closed because of COVID, etc...It could take ANOTHER 6-12 months.  And at the end of that...he's got a piece of paper from a US court that says his piece of paper from a Canadian court is valid in the US.  He now needs to collect on it.
> 
> Collecting on a judgement can be a difficult thing.  You are generally allowed to garnish wages, bank accounts, file liens on property, etc.  But he first has to know where you bank accounts are, where you work, and/or if/where you own property.  In theory, he could attach to your DVC membership and file a Lien against that...that would only ever become relevant if you sold your DVC...It wouldn't prevent you from actually using it.  But again, in order to find all of this information out, he would need to hire someone to find that information.   All at his expense.  Now, if he finds money, he can deduct his costs in collecting that money from his proceeds used to pay off your judgement to him...so if he's successful, you ultimately pay for all of these expenses.  But if he's not successful in collecting money, then he's out the extra money.
> 
> All told, in his worst-case case (US owner, who stonewalls him) it would likely be 2-3 years before he would be able to collect any money by force and it would likely cost him about $2000, up front, to go about it.  All of that time/hassle/expense to collect on what is likely about $1500-$3000?  I don't believe that the cost/benefit analysis here would add up for that to be a feasible route for David's to go down.
> 
> David's can send some scary letters, demand that you pay him, those actions are cheap...but, in my opinion, actually forcing an owner to pay him back is going to be a long and expensive process with a low chance of successfully collecting money.


In this situation, even if as an owner I thought the right thing to do was to return the money, I STILL wouldn’t help fund David’s voucher scheme. I would demand the ability to directly pay my renter in exchange for a release of liability from both renter and broker.

Otherwise, sue me.

At the end of the day, my offer to repay is still far better than the expenses for Court. If I were gonna repay, it’d be on my terms and go back to the renter or not at all.


----------



## disneypharm

In his latest contract, #7"Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.", he is offering renters to do a cash booking with Disney.  If this is truely a cash reservation, then it should be refundable per Disney.  But he states that this is nonrefundable as well.  So, in the case of another closure (eg, pandemic), Disney would allow Davids to cancel the reservation, then he pockets the money!!  I can't imagine this is legal in any country, especially Canada.    If he really has the money to make a cash reservation for you, then he should allow you have the same benefits as other Disney guests. 

Also, -“In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue. "  I have already paid him a lot of money for him keep, why would I pay more money to check to see if they can find availability?  

Too many issues with his new contract!  Ugh!


----------



## banzai75

WanderlustinFP said:


> Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in?  I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?



I have the same card and initiated a charge back yesterday for my April reservation. I will let you all know how it goes.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Updates for those interested in chargebacks:  I called and filed a dispute last Tuesday.  I still hadn't received any email stating that my case was open, so I called back (I'm using a Signature VISA credit card).  I actually somehow managed to get the exact same customer service rep on the phone again and asked him if he was the only person working (since I had to hold for about 20 minutes).  He stated that my case is still being investigated and it takes anywhere from 30-90 days to full resolve.  They will send the confirmation via snail mail but he stated that the charges are now put on hold and to not pay them on my CC. Obviously that doesn't help as I paid my money to David's back in September and fully pay off the CC every month.  He did state that most communication for charge backs is via mail and if anything else was needed I would be contacted that way.  He appologized that I hadn't recevied my letter yet, but did mention that there's been a lot of chargebacks lately. I'm hopeful this will get resolved positively for me as I still haven't even received the email offering a credit from David's yet.


----------



## banzai75

Email from David about refunds 


As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.
Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.

In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.
We have begun rolling out the travel credit terms and conditions and have sent this to you in a separate e-mail. 
Please let us know if you have any additional questions or concern.


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyBB said:


> Why wouldn’t you get your final payment?  If the resort is open then the contract is complete.
> 
> The other worry I have is if the renter wants a resort that is too far out to book, will David agree to a open contract that allows me to wait to book? Or will the renter have to choose something that I can book now?   It would be so much easier to do my own thing.



At this point, I don’t trust this company at all,  I am resolved to lose it and quite frankly, have no desire to make any type of concessions,  

That means, no rescheduling either,  If I was doing this privately, I’d be more willing to help out.  But I refuse to deal through Davids anymore, which means no variance from the contract I have.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

disneypharm said:


> Please be aware that there are several owners on this thread who have clearly mentioned that they might re-rent the returned points and keeping their 70%. Some of these owners might be giving you advise even though they are not legal experts!



Really? Several? I've been following along pretty closely and haven't seen this, but I admit that I could have missed it.  I can certainly understand your frustration if you've seen several owners posting this and I realize that you acknowledge you've seen owners trying to help as well.  From what I've seen, the owners are trying to understand legally what they're obligated to do while clearly acknowledging that they want to help the renters in any way they can.  At the end of the day, it isn't right for any party to take a loss in this situation, but unfortunately, its clear that many will.


----------



## Cyberc1978

LawrenceFamily said:


> You say that but last week we rented points with them for next February - the points went live one day, the agreement was secured the next day and I had received 70 of the money in my account the next day.
> 
> If money was a problem, surely they wouldn't have passed me the 70% of my agreement so quickly?
> 
> I'm concerned with what im reading on here but my experience has been pretty positive so far. I just hope the hotels are open by February 2021! Haha.



assuming David’s is NOT around when your 30% is due. What would you do? I’d also assume that you would also know well in advance if he wasn’t.


----------



## disneypharm

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> Really? Several? I've been following along pretty closely and haven't seen this, but I admit that I could have missed it.  I can certainly understand your frustration if you've seen several owners posting this and I realize that you acknowledge you've seen owners trying to help as well.  From what I've seen, the owners are trying to understand legally what they're obligated to do while clearly acknowledging that they want to help the renters in any way they can.  At the end of the day, it isn't right for any party to take a loss in this situation, but unfortunately, its clear that many will.


Yep, several and not just on this thread.  As I mentioned that I believe most owners are willing to help.  If you have read my other posts, I have acknowledged that some owners might not be in a position to help (eg, losing points), but others are, so I wanted to make sure that all new owners in this thread to know that just because some owners are very active on this thread, does not mean that they are legal experts and she shouldn't assume that their words are actual facts.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

Sandisw said:


> If that is the model, I think he will have trouble finding as many owners who will engage with him,
> 
> If I decide to rent again, I won’t be using him.  And, if I wanted to, I certainly wouldn’t in a refundable situation.
> 
> Id rent on my own and take less.


Sandy, you can rent on your own just fine. Posting for less than what David charges will still be more than he paid you. I like having a conversation with my renter even before the contract is signed. I want them to feel comfortable with me and explain/answer any questions they may have. Makes the whole process so much better..They always have my number to reach me any time. You can do it!!


----------



## Sandisw

BWV Dreamin said:


> Sandy, you can rent on your own just fine. Posting for less than what David charges will still be more than he paid you. I like having a conversation with my renter even before the contract is signed. I want them to feel comfortable with me and explain/answer any questions they may have. Makes the whole process so much better..They always have my number to reach me any time. You can do it!!



Oh, I know that I can rent for more! I was just saying that if it was a choice, I’d take less doing it by myself than every using a broker,

I am not sure I am doing it again anyway.  I’d rather just transfer extra points when I have them!


----------



## DisneyBB

Amymouse13 said:


> If David's said the contract is frustrated, would owners be in violation of contract if they worked directly with renter??? There is no contract... So is everything he is saying outside the contract lol



That’s what I would like to know as well. If the contract is voided by this can we not just do our own thing?


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> It is so confusing.  I was told ok to contact and that if I refunded it would towards the travel voucher.   I would rather the renter got refunded.  But I dont think I am the one in control of this and just want to ensure I don’t, by accident, cause more issues that some how negates the contract.
> 
> So from some of the answers here.  Even if the points are expiring David is still asking for the money back?


David has asked for money back, but it was a voluntary request to me.


----------



## cruisehopeful

WanderlustinFP said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a reservation with David's DVC in May and I contacted them earlier this month to see if they can get in touch with the owner to reschedule my trip to a later date. I'm a nurse right in the epicenter of COVID 19, therefore I knew the situation was looking bleak and Disney would not be up and running in May.  They sent me a canned email response just like their replies on Facebook. I know they are inundated with cancelled reservations from March and April, so the chances of them of working on my May reservation is slim to none, but I gave them a head ups to try to work things out with the owner this way they don't lose any points.
> 
> Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in?  I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?


Your dining plan will probably be auto refunded to your gift cards. It might take a long time, but Disney is giving refunds.

I never rented from a broker, but is there any way you can find out who the owner is? Many owners are trying to help the renters if they have the ability to rebook or get a refund. If you cannot figure out how to locate the owner, I'd go ahead and start a charge back right now. Davids sounds like a Ponzi scheme and you should to whatever it takes to get your money back.


----------



## McCrae

WanderlustinFP said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a reservation with David's DVC in May and I contacted them earlier this month to see if they can get in touch with the owner to reschedule my trip to a later date. I'm a nurse right in the epicenter of COVID 19, therefore I knew the situation was looking bleak and Disney would not be up and running in May.  They sent me a canned email response just like their replies on Facebook. I know they are inundated with cancelled reservations from March and April, so the chances of them of working on my May reservation is slim to none, but I gave them a head ups to try to work things out with the owner this way they don't lose any points.
> 
> Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in?  I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?



I am an owner and would suggest you go down the charge back route.  You will need to ask David's for a full refund before you start the process.

From my experience David's will make no attempt to contact the owner you rented from. I offered to David's the option of working with the renter to reschedule their visit. He didn't take me up on this.

It might be worthwhile contacting Disney now and asking what is their refund policy on dining plans and how do you go about getting a refund.


----------



## McCrae

cruisehopeful said:


> Your dining plan will probably be auto refunded to your gift cards. It might take a long time, but Disney is giving refunds.
> 
> I never rented from a broker, but is there any way you can find out who the owner is? Many owners are trying to help the renters if they have the ability to rebook or get a refund. If you cannot figure out how to locate the owner, I'd go ahead and start a charge back right now. Davids sounds like a Ponzi scheme and you should to whatever it takes to get your money back.



If you contact a owner directly don't be surprised if you get no response. The contract they have is with David's and not you. Under the contract David's does not allow owners to contact renters.

Whilst most owners are willing to help, many would be concerned about the implications of breaking the contract terms with david's.


----------



## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> If you contact a owner directly don't be surprised if you get no response. The contract they have is with David's and not you. Under the contract David's does not allow owners to contact renters.
> 
> Whilst most owners are willing to help, many would be concerned about the implications of breaking the contract terms with david's.


I am even more confused now.  I could not see anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renter.  We can’t go ahead and reschedule or refund but can start a conversation copying David in to prove we are not saying anything we should do.   My worry is the renter will know their options.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> I am even more confused now.  I could not see anywhere in the contract that says we cannot contact the renter.  We can’t go ahead and reschedule or refund but can start a conversation copying David in to prove we are not saying anything we should do.   My worry is the renter will know their options.



It reads pretty clearly that you are trying to be as helpful as possible. I think you also need to consider how do you protect yourself from possible litigation.

Why not step back and let things play out.

Maybe your renter is happy to accept the no refunds clause.

If your renter lodges a credit card charge back application why not wait to see if they are successful.


----------



## Cyberc1978

disneypharm said:


> @DisneyBB  Thank you for being so supportive of the renter.  Please be aware that there are several owners on this thread who have clearly mentioned that they might re-rent the returned points and keeping their 70%.  Some of these owners might be giving you advise even though they are not legal experts!  I believe that most owners are like you willing to help but they are afraid to reach out because of these posts.  If you have a time sensitive reservation and David has mentioned that he is ok with you rescheduling the renter, I would urge you to reach out to both Davids and your renter.  Many owners have been successful rescheduling their renters recently.
> 
> Just to add, if I were an owner, I will not be sending my 70% to Davids for him to keep and give a voucher to the renter.  Please just try to reschedule the renter.


Most owners if not all want to help If they can. However some can’t help as their points are expiring. Also most agrees that throwing good money after bad is a terrible business choice. In this case if owners still haven’t received their remaining 30% and are left with expiring points only way to recoup the 30% would be to use new points for a new reservation.


----------



## moab44

I booked my trip last August for this April. I haven’t received my voucher email yet. Even though it’s cancelled.  I live in Canada .  I wanted to see what my option were with my Capital One Aspire MasterCard.  So I called today.  They said with that particular card I have travel insurance. They will cover each person on the trip up to $1000.00.  They said even if Dave’s goes bankrupt I will get $4000.00 dollars. I will still be out $2000.00 but that’s better than nothing. They also said even if it took a couple years from the first date of purchase  I would still be covered.  So I think I will see what how the voucher program works.  If we don’t get the hotel or time we want or the park Is still closed next year or as stated before Dave’s go bankrupt we can still get some money back.


----------



## LawrenceFamily

Cyberc1978 said:


> assuming David’s is NOT around when your 30% is due. What would you do? I’d also assume that you would also know well in advance if he wasn’t.



What would I do about what? If a business is bankrupt, there's next to no chance that I'd get any part of the 30% that was owed to me.
The reservation is still live though and I have the owners email address, so if the worst did happen then I'd just liaise directly with the renter and make sure they had a good holiday. It is what it is.


----------



## lawboy2001

disneypharm said:


> In his latest contract, #7"Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.", he is offering renters to do a cash booking with Disney.  If this is truely a cash reservation, then it should be refundable per Disney.  But he states that this is nonrefundable as well.  So, in the case of another closure (eg, pandemic), Disney would allow Davids to cancel the reservation, then he pockets the money!!  I can't imagine this is legal in any country, especially Canada.    If he really has the money to make a cash reservation for you, then he should allow you have the same benefits as other Disney guests.
> 
> Also, -“In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue. "  I have already paid him a lot of money for him keep, why would I pay more money to check to see if they can find availability?
> 
> Too many issues with his new contract!  Ugh!



Nothing wrong with that really.  David's makes a contract with his renters that their payment is non-refundable, David's books an accommodation as a travel agent with Disney, with terms that he gets his money back from Disney upon cancellation, per terms of his agreement with Disney.  He's acting like a reseller or bundler in this case.  There is no rule of law he needs to provide the same terms to his customers as Disney provided to him.


----------



## GoingSince1990

Regarding credit card chargebacks, don't assume that you will not be successful just because it is a long time since you paid for the trip. In November 2015 we charged about $4000 to our credit card for a daily meals delivery service called The Fresh Diet. When the firm went out of business in July 2016, at which time we had about $2500 worth of meals remaining to be delivered, I assumed that we would be out of luck because it was about 8 months since we had paid. But I went ahead and filed the chargeback anyway, got an immediate conditional credit on my card, supplied the information that Citibank requested, and lo and behold, won the dispute, and the credit became permanent. At least for this credit card, the chargeback time limit clock does not start at the time of payment, it starts at the time that the goods and services paid for are not supplied. If I was a renter I would absolutely go ahead and file the chargeback as opposed to accepting that awful "travel credit" that David's is trying to push on people.


----------



## disneypharm

lawboy2001 said:


> Nothing wrong with that really.  David's makes a contract with his renters that their payment is non-refundable, David's books an accommodation as a travel agent with Disney, with terms that he gets his money back from Disney upon cancellation, per terms of his agreement with Disney.  He's acting like a reseller or bundler in this case.  There is no rule of law he needs to provide the same terms to his customers as Disney provided to him.


So, basically by signing the new contract which does not give me any protection, I am getting rid of the previous contract that gives me some!!  I am sorry, that is just greedy!  So, in that case, he has the owner's 30%, his commission from the previous booking, and then my cash from Disney.  Just Wow!!


----------



## banzai75

moab44 said:


> I booked my trip last August for this April. I haven’t received my voucher email yet. Even though it’s cancelled.  I live in Canada .  I wanted to see what my option were with my Capital One Aspire MasterCard.  So I called today.  They said with that particular card I have travel insurance. They will cover each person on the trip up to $1000.00.  They said even if Dave’s goes bankrupt I will get $4000.00 dollars. I will still be out $2000.00 but that’s better than nothing. They also said even if it took a couple years from the first date of purchase  I would still be covered.  So I think I will see what how the voucher program works.  If we don’t get the hotel or time we want or the park Is still closed next year or as stated before Dave’s go bankrupt we can still get some money back.



This is interesting way.  I did not think about trip travel insurance.  From my interpretation, Chase's travel insurance indicates this is a covered.  

Do you think I should file a trip insurance claim as well as a chargeback?  I already filed a chargeback, but trip insurance must be filed within 20 days of the occurence.


----------



## Cyberc1978

LawrenceFamily said:


> What would I do about what? If a business is bankrupt, there's next to no chance that I'd get any part of the 30% that was owed to me.
> The reservation is still live though and I have the owners email address, so if the worst did happen then I'd just liaise directly with the renter and make sure they had a good holiday. It is what it is.


If davids goes out of business and your contract is with him then you are in a position to cancel as you would not get the final payment or find a solution with your renter.

in this case I would recommend the renter to do a CC chargeback. When or if the renter wins he could pay the 30% and do whatever he wants with the rest.


----------



## Dracula

disneypharm said:


> So, basically by signing the new contract which does not give me any protection, I am getting rid of the previous contract that gives me some!!  I am sorry, that is just greedy!  So, in that case, he has the owner's 30%, his commission from the previous booking, and then my cash from Disney.  Just Wow!!


There should not be much "cash from Disney", unless you paid money on top of the credit voucher. David may also not have the 30% due the owner, as that may have been refunded to the owner upon completion of a new rental. But yes, these are pretty onerous terms on the voucher - and there is a chance you would be out of money, and because the voucher terms it may be more difficult to pursue a chargeback.


----------



## moab44

banzai75 said:


> This is interesting way.  I did not think about trip travel insurance.  From my interpretation, Chase's travel insurance indicates this is a covered.
> 
> Do you think I should file a trip insurance claim as well as a chargeback?  I already filed a chargeback, but trip insurance must be filed within 20 days of the occurence.


According to the Capital One people I didn’t have to apply to get this started it would just happen if I needed it to.


----------



## starry_solo

banzai75 said:


> This is interesting way.  I did not think about trip travel insurance.  From my interpretation, Chase's travel insurance indicates this is a covered.
> 
> Do you think I should file a trip insurance claim as well as a chargeback?  I already filed a chargeback, but trip insurance must be filed within 20 days of the occurence.



i would check to make sure it doesn’t conflict with each other but I would likely do both. Insurance may only cover $1000 or so, depending on the card you have.


----------



## Amymouse13

Our dining plans were automatically refunded to credit card after about a week from when reservations were cancelled.

What I like best about David's is that he claims the contract is frustrated yet he will unilaterally institute some new contract that fits his financial goals.  

We paid half with boa biz cc for one 4 night stay and they already mailed formed for us to sign and send back proof, for that one I had David's email saying the reservation was cancelled, the owner cancelled it.  Boa biz doesn't allow online chargeback so I spoke with person to get it started.

The other is Citibank cc and have just done their online part.  

I never got voucher email from David's but maybe they know I put in chargeback a month ago?  (Mine were cancelled about 2.5 weeks at least before trip by owners- trip was supposed to start 4/18)


----------



## disneypharm

Dracula said:


> *There should not be much "cash from Disney", unless you paid money on top of the credit voucher.* David may also not have the 30% due the owner, as that may have been refunded to the owner upon completion of a new rental. But yes, these are pretty onerous terms on the voucher - and there is a chance you would be out of money, and because the voucher terms it may be more difficult to pursue a chargeback.


I assume Davids used his own cash (which is technically what I paid him with the first contract) not a voucher to make the reservation with Disney.  So, if closure occurs again, Disney will give him his cash back.


----------



## lawboy2001

disneypharm said:


> So, basically by signing the new contract which does not give me any protection, I am getting rid of the previous contract that gives me some!!  I am sorry, that is just greedy!  So, in that case, he has the owner's 30%, his commission from the previous booking, and then my cash from Disney.  Just Wow!!


You've got it   DIS-gusting huh!!??


----------



## banzai75

starry_solo said:


> i would check to make sure it doesn’t conflict with each other but I would likely do both. Insurance may only cover $1000 or so, depending on the card you have.



Reading the FAQ's of travel insurance I don't think they will approve it because DVC is offering a voucher (albeit not a good one.)  

Per Chase's Insurance Carrier
Please note that if a common carrier provides a Voucher toward another trip as a form of refund for a cancellation, no payment will be made on your claim with Card Benefit Services because this insurance reimburses specific covered non-refundable travel expenses.   If the Voucher issued by the airline expires and is never used, a claim may be payable provided all other terms and conditions are met.   If you are charged a fee associated with changing or canceling your airline ticket, reimbursement of that fee may be eligible at the time of loss provided all terms and conditions are met. 

If the flight is non-refundable, please provide verification of whether there is an available credit for future travel. Some airlines provide credits instead of refunds, which typically have an expiration date. Once the credit expires, please send proof so we can continue processing your claim.


----------



## moab44

Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?


----------



## Dracula

moab44 said:


> Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?


I would certainly rent points again through David if he is running a going concern. There is a great deal of convenience not having to seek and negotiate with renters, and just have peace of mind knowing you would be paid, albeit less money, whether the renter checks in or not.


----------



## Cyberc1978

moab44 said:


> Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?



I own BWV but I haven’t used davids before. I would certainly think twice if Davids are the right broker for me to use. I would maybe use one of the other brokers instead.

i think a lot of owners would prefer not to use David’s in the future.


----------



## LawrenceFamily

moab44 said:


> Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?



I doubt the owner would know that the renter was paying with a voucher? The voucher would be given to you from David's would it not and then you redeem it with them if you make a new booking? The new owner would receive 70% cash upfront as per the agreement and I am assuming that David would pay this direct to the owner. 

In this scenario, David is taking the hit on a full booking cost, unless he withholds the 30% from the owner of the original booking, in which case it'd be 70%.


----------



## Noodlez

Dracula said:


> I would certainly rent points again through David if he is running a going concern. There is a great deal of convenience not having to seek and negotiate with renters, and just have peace of mind knowing you would be paid, albeit less money, whether the renter checks in or not.



I feel the same.  I prefer to use a broker and I haven't seen anything yet which makes me think any of the others are better.


----------



## Marionnette

[


moab44 said:


> Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?


No. I own at BWV and would not deal with him again given his newest rental agreement.


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> Did you rent privately or did you use a broker?


I rented privately.


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> I rented privately.


OK. That makes things a lot cleaner.  The contracts owners have signed with Brokers places restrictions on what they can do to help. They have to honour the conditions of the agreement.


----------



## cmrdgrs

I'm just curious if someone has the knowledge and/or legal background and can explain why brokers, AirBnB, VBRO, Redweek, etc -- why aren't these businesses not required to hold funds in escrow and have escrow insurance?  All of these transactions seem like escrow transactions, no?

*ETA: If the mods feel this is off topic please delete and accept my apology.*


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> OK. That makes things a lot cleaner.  The contracts owners have signed with Brokers places restrictions on what they can do to help. They have to honour the conditions of the agreement.


Agreed. I thought about going through a broker but 15% commission is ridiculous for what is basically a middleman service which is now proving to be not so good for renters or owners. I’m so glad I just rented privately!  Sorry for all involved in this mess.


----------



## Sandisw

moab44 said:


> Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?



I will not use him in the future,


----------



## Maddiesmum03

moab44 said:


> Just out of curiosity. A question to the owners of DVC property. If I used the voucher and try to book a stay next year at a Boardwalk villa,  how many of you would give the points for the trip?  If no one would do it, what good are the vouchers?


Well, David has the use of some points of mine for an end of March reservation, as I actually got paid 100% (resorts were still open) so the points are his to use as he wants (good through to August 2021 so very useful points!) but the only request I have had so far was for a reservation using more points which isn't going to happen!


----------



## cmrdgrs

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Well, David has the use of some points of mine for an end of March reservation, as I actually got paid 100% (resorts were still open) so the points are his to use as he wants (good through to August 2021 so very useful points!) but the only request I have had so far was for a reservation using more points which isn't going to happen!


I guess I don't understand... Is this the scenario?

The renter paid in full, the date for check-in came and the renter did not check-in.  Since the resort was open, the renter lost the money paid to David.  However, since the resort was open, you received your full payment.

Now David is going to re-rent the points that you were paid for, and he will be paid again, but what happens for you?  Are you also paid again?


----------



## Maddiesmum03

cmrdgrs said:


> I guess I don't understand... Is this the scenario?
> 
> The renter paid in full, the date for check-in came and the renter did not check-in.  Since the resort was open, the renter lost the money paid to David.  However, since the resort was open, you received your full payment.
> 
> Now David is going to re-rent the points that you were paid for, and he will be paid again, but what happens for you?  Are you also paid again?


Yes, he is going to re rent the points, and no I won’t get paid again  In an ideal world I would like to have re rented for the original renter, but our email dialog suggested the money from a new rental would refund the original renters. I guess that was before he thought up the voucher scheme.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Yes, he is going to re rent the points, and no I won’t get paid again  In an ideal world I would like to have re rented for the original renter, but our email dialog suggested the money from a new rental would refund the original renters. I guess that was before he thought up the voucher scheme.


But, you really have no way of knowing what happened with the original renters -- if they got their money back, or if they were issued a future travel credit, or if they paid for the reservation and David stuck to his "non-refundable" clause (which seems like could have happened)


----------



## Maddiesmum03

cmrdgrs said:


> But, you really have no way of knowing what happened with the original renters -- if they got their money back, or if they were issued a future travel credit, or if they paid for the reservation and David stuck to his "non-refundable" clause (which seems like could have happened)


That is very true, in my eyes those points (or another reservation booked with them) belong to the original renters.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Yes, he is going to re rent the points, and no I won’t get paid again  In an ideal world I would like to have re rented for the original renter, but our email dialog suggested the money from a new rental would refund the original renters. I guess that was before he thought up the voucher scheme.


Sounds like David’s is getting awfully close to a pyramid scheme in that scenario...


----------



## Galun

WanderlustinFP said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a reservation with David's DVC in May and I contacted them earlier this month to see if they can get in touch with the owner to reschedule my trip to a later date. I'm a nurse right in the epicenter of COVID 19, therefore I knew the situation was looking bleak and Disney would not be up and running in May.  They sent me a canned email response just like their replies on Facebook. I know they are inundated with cancelled reservations from March and April, so the chances of them of working on my May reservation is slim to none, but I gave them a head ups to try to work things out with the owner this way they don't lose any points.
> 
> Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in?  I used my Chase Sapphire back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?



Wait for the reservation to be canceled by Disney - it may occur before day of check in.   You will likely be offered a voucher.  At that point you refuse it and initiate a chargeback with your credit card.  

Credit card chargeback requires the trigger event to first occur (reservation cancelled through no fault of your own), and usually require you to work with the merchant to find a resolution (David's offered you a voucher which the terms you find to be unacceptable).  

Thank you for the work that you are doing.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

banzai75 said:


> Email from David about refunds
> 
> 
> As you know we act as an intermediary between DVC owners and guests. As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, *we therefore have a no-refunds policy*, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund. Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted. We understand that through no act or omission of yours, ours, nor the DVC booking owner this reservation no longer exists.
> Due to the incredible impact of the COVID19 pandemic, we have been forced to *step outside of our policy in order to be more accommodating to the affected travelling families that had secured reservations that now have been cancelled by Disney due to the closure of Disney Resorts*. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> In direct response to the COVID19 pandemic, with the assistance of our legal partners and *as a token of our goodwill* in alignment with Travel Industry Standards, we have come up with a program that gives guests time and choices in travel, when it is safe for them to do so. This Travel Credit will enable the guest to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit. This travel credit has been extended to guests who have not been successful in arranging alternate dates using the points of their original DVC booking owner, and have not otherwise been compensated.
> We have begun rolling out the travel credit terms and conditions and have sent this to you in a separate e-mail.
> Please let us know if you have any additional questions or concern.


So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, David's indicates that they would be legally within their rights to stick to the "no refunds" policy despite the resorts being closed.  They are only offering vouchers out of the kindness of their hearts... as a gesture of goodwill.

So, if David's is _voluntarily _accommodating renters (albeit with potentially worthless vouchers), I'll give him a little bit of credit for that.  However, he's singing a different tune with some owners in making veiled legal threats that they owe him the 70% back.

So which is it?  Contractual obligation or gesture of goodwill?  If the latter, then he's not required to provide recovery to those renters.  That would mean that the "no refunds" policy still applies, but he's giving them vouchers anyway out of the kindness of his heart.  If he's choosing to do that as a gesture of goodwill and not because he's legally bound to, then it seems he still owes the remaining 30% to the owner since he's opting to step outside his policy and "waive" the no refunds clause.

He can't unilaterally change the terms of the contract in order to sprinkle optional pixie dust and then tell owners they are legally bound to fund it.


----------



## SeaDis

I've tried to keep up with this this fast thread, but have missed 15-20 pages along the way.  Would anyone care to safety check this?

I have a reservation mid-May with borrowed points.  Since I can (currently) reclaim the points, I reached out to my renter to check their intentions for their trip and make them aware that I can refund the 70% I have received.  They stated they are cancelling trip, and yes I should go ahead and cancel/reclaim the points (which I haven't yet).  I emailed David's to confirm but I'm getting no reply; hopefully because they are taking them on reservation date, but I have no idea.

Obviously I am worried about the borrowed points policy changing while we wait.  I would rather give it back directly to the renter, but if they pursue a voucher then no problem giving it back to David's.  BUT, if the points policy changes, I am less inclined to return money especially when I seem to be the only one working on this for a couple weeks now.

Would you cancel the reservation, reclaim the points, and just wait for David's to ask for the 70%?  The renter stated to do this (email), so I wouldn't expect a claim for travel damages, etc.  I don't see how David's can claim damages if they are keeping commission and I make the 70% fully available.  Thanks!


----------



## mustinjourney

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> Once thing that I thought was interesting from the article on the Doctrine of Impossibility though:
> 
> 
> Based on that, I am theorizing that everyone owes everyone there money back.  I believe, from a legal perspective, the DVC Member owes David his money back, and David owes the renter their money back.  Essentially, everything is undone as if the contract were never signed.



Now go do research on unsecured transactions....and similarly, what it takes to enforce a judgment.  In short, even if the renter is supposed to get their money back, not only would they have to spend a decent amount of money to go to court (and likely hire an attorney as well) and win -- but THEN, they'd have to spend more money trying to collect on the judgment. 

And if David's is more or less bankrupt -- that's no good.  And the owners of the contract, depending on the state they live in, could be judgment proof.  Unlike the IRS, you can't garnish wages or threaten jailtime.

Additionally -- it's beyond unlikely for a contract victor to be awarded extra damages for a breach of contract (and in this case -- it's not even a breach).

Lastly -- as for "unjust enrichment" -- if the DVC owners used points that are about to expire and Disney is not letting them do anything with those points, the DVC owner is not unjustly enriched.  If anything -- they're still not getting the last 30% they bargained for.


----------



## Dracula

SeaDis said:


> I've tried to keep up with this this fast thread, but have missed 15-20 pages along the way.  Would anyone care to safety check this?
> 
> I have a reservation mid-May with borrowed points.  Since I can (currently) reclaim the points, I reached out to my renter to check their intentions for their trip and make them aware that I can refund the 70% I have received.  They stated they are cancelling trip, and yes I should go ahead and cancel/reclaim the points (which I haven't yet).  I emailed David's to confirm but I'm getting no reply; hopefully because they are taking them on reservation date, but I have no idea.
> 
> Obviously I am worried about the borrowed points policy changing while we wait.  I would rather give it back directly to the renter, but if they pursue a voucher then no problem giving it back to David's.  BUT, if the points policy changes, I am less inclined to return money especially when I seem to be the only one working on this for a couple weeks now.
> 
> Would you cancel the reservation, reclaim the points, and just wait for David's to ask for the 70%?  The renter stated to do this (email), so I wouldn't expect a claim for travel damages, etc.  I don't see how David's can claim damages if they are keeping commission and I make the 70% fully available.  Thanks!


NO! You have a contract with David that expressly prohibits you from canceling or changing the reservation, and doing so makes you liable for any other costs incurred by the renter (park tickets, airfare, maybe even lost wages). You do not yet know whether the resort would be closed in May (probably will, but Disney would not confirm, and did not cancel your reservation). Bottom line, you already have the 70% from David, do not cancel the reservation unless directed by David.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

As you indicate this because very complex very quickly.
OTH I find the discussion really interesting and informative.



mustinjourney said:


> Now go do research on unsecured transactions....and similarly, what it takes to enforce a judgment.  In short, even if the renter is supposed to get their money back, not only would they have to spend a decent amount of money to go to court (and likely hire an attorney as well) and win -- but THEN, they'd have to spend more money trying to collect on the judgment.
> 
> And if David's is more or less bankrupt -- that's no good.  And the owners of the contract, depending on the state they live in, could be judgment proof.  Unlike the IRS, you can't garnish wages or threaten jailtime.
> 
> Additionally -- it's beyond unlikely for a contract victor to be awarded extra damages for a breach of contract (and in this case -- it's not even a breach).
> 
> Lastly -- as for "unjust enrichment" -- if the DVC owners used points that are about to expire and Disney is not letting them do anything with those points, the DVC owner is not be unjustly enriched.  If anything -- they're still not getting the last 30% they bargained for.


----------



## Sandisw

SeaDis said:


> I've tried to keep up with this this fast thread, but have missed 15-20 pages along the way.  Would anyone care to safety check this?
> 
> I have a reservation mid-May with borrowed points.  Since I can (currently) reclaim the points, I reached out to my renter to check their intentions for their trip and make them aware that I can refund the 70% I have received.  They stated they are cancelling trip, and yes I should go ahead and cancel/reclaim the points (which I haven't yet).  I emailed David's to confirm but I'm getting no reply; hopefully because they are taking them on reservation date, but I have no idea.
> 
> Obviously I am worried about the borrowed points policy changing while we wait.  I would rather give it back directly to the renter, but if they pursue a voucher then no problem giving it back to David's.  BUT, if the points policy changes, I am less inclined to return money especially when I seem to be the only one working on this for a couple weeks now.
> 
> Would you cancel the reservation, reclaim the points, and just wait for David's to ask for the 70%?  The renter stated to do this (email), so I wouldn't expect a claim for travel damages, etc.  I don't see how David's can claim damages if they are keeping commission and I make the 70% fully available.  Thanks!



As just mentioned, you would be in violation of your contact.  The thing is that even if you return the 70% to Davids, he has made it clear that he will not be giving it to your renters,

So, you are really stuck at the points to keep it as is, and let your renters know that per the information you have heard about Davids, is that funds are not being returned to renters, even when owners are willing,

Unless you get it in writing from Davids allowing you to cancel and his assurance it will go to your renters, I’d not go that route,


----------



## mustinjourney

tubtruck said:


> Has anyone considered that this once in a lifetime event has, and is, ruining businesses. How about giving David a break and accept the credit. He is otherwise likely to be bankrupt and 30 odd peoples livings will be destroyed.
> Over here in the UK, even the government has asked if people could accept credit notes if not immediately desperate for the money, rather than insist on refunds even if legally they are entitled to it, otherwise airlines and very large travel companies and many other companies will go bankrupt causing massive misery to millions.
> David never envisaged this, no company or individual did, but things happen in life and this is probably the most devastating world wide event even since the second world war. Lets not all make it worse if we don't need to, whats morally right and whats legally right are not always the same.



based on reports from others that followed him on his social media accounts, dude was living the high life and traveling the globe...presumably using the never-ending cash flow provided by the business.  He reportedly bought a 40 or 50 ft yacht a year or two ago.  

If he can't float his business expenses for 2 or 3 months, then he was living completely outside of his means...and that's on him.


----------



## GrumpyInPhilly

Sandisw said:


> Oh, I know that I can rent for more! I was just saying that if it was a choice, I’d take less doing it by myself than every using a broker,
> 
> *I am not sure I am doing it again anyway.  I’d rather just transfer extra points when I have them!*



I've rented several times in the past.  No more!  I just did my first transfer thru the site sponsor.


----------



## Madame

SeaDis said:


> I've tried to keep up with this this fast thread, but have missed 15-20 pages along the way.  Would anyone care to safety check this?
> 
> I have a reservation mid-May with borrowed points.  Since I can (currently) reclaim the points, I reached out to my renter to check their intentions for their trip and make them aware that I can refund the 70% I have received.  They stated they are cancelling trip, and yes I should go ahead and cancel/reclaim the points (which I haven't yet).  I emailed David's to confirm but I'm getting no reply; hopefully because they are taking them on reservation date, but I have no idea.
> 
> Obviously I am worried about the borrowed points policy changing while we wait.  I would rather give it back directly to the renter, but if they pursue a voucher then no problem giving it back to David's.  BUT, if the points policy changes, I am less inclined to return money especially when I seem to be the only one working on this for a couple weeks now.
> 
> Would you cancel the reservation, reclaim the points, and just wait for David's to ask for the 70%?  The renter stated to do this (email), so I wouldn't expect a claim for travel damages, etc.  I don't see how David's can claim damages if they are keeping commission and I make the 70% fully available.  Thanks!


I am in in the exact same position.  Do not cancel the reservation nor refund the renter.  Let DVC cancel.  Wait until your points are unborrowed and refund David’s.  If DVC changes the policy before the reservation is cancelled, you’ll have to decide what to do.  I posted a screenshot of David’s response (apparently citing their lawyer) several pages back.  They are claiming that if points get stuck, owner must return the 70% anyway...


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> As just mentioned, you would be in violation of your contact.  The thing is that even if you return the 70% to Davids, he has made it clear that he will not be giving it to your renters,
> 
> So, you are really stuck at the points to keep it as is, and let your renters know that per the information you have heard about Davids, is that funds are not being returned to renters, even when owners are willing,
> 
> Unless you get it in writing from Davids allowing you to cancel and his assurance it will go to your renters, I’d not go that route,



Agreed. Best to wait until Disney cancels the reservation.


----------



## mustinjourney

tubtruck said:


> David does business in Canada, it has nothing to do with Florida, just like if I set up a timeshare rental firm in the UK selling Florida rentals, no government body anywhere in the USA could do anything about it even if they didn't like what I was doing as like in Canada they have zero jurisdiction here.



pretty sure he would satisfy the "minimal contacts" needed to establish that he does business in the US.  But it's been a while since I took Civ. Pro., so I could be wrong.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

There is a real reality to standing in front of a judge, as a potential voter, as a person in his/her district or county suffering damage to an out of state/out of country business that seems to be gaming people.
I think the 'public policy' of each state in stopping that is fairly strong whether basic fairness or some type of consumer protection.
"Erie" this comes up isn't it?



mustinjourney said:


> pretty sure he would satisfy the "minimal contacts" needed to establish that he does business in the US.  But it's been a while since I took Civ. Pro., so I could be wrong.


----------



## yankeesfan123

mustinjourney said:


> Now go do research on unsecured transactions....and similarly, what it takes to enforce a judgment.  In short, even if the renter is supposed to get their money back, not only would they have to spend a decent amount of money to go to court (and likely hire an attorney as well) and win -- but THEN, they'd have to spend more money trying to collect on the judgment.
> 
> And if David's is more or less bankrupt -- that's no good.  And the owners of the contract, depending on the state they live in, could be judgment proof.  Unlike the IRS, you can't garnish wages or threaten jailtime.
> 
> Additionally -- it's beyond unlikely for a contract victor to be awarded extra damages for a breach of contract (and in this case -- it's not even a breach).
> 
> Lastly -- as for "unjust enrichment" -- if the DVC owners used points that are about to expire and Disney is not letting them do anything with those points, the DVC owner is not be unjustly enriched.  If anything -- they're still not getting the last 30% they bargained for.


Even if the owner gets the points back with only a few weeks of use and the money... they’re still unjustly enriched, to at least some minimal degree.


----------



## yankeesfan123

mustinjourney said:


> pretty sure he would satisfy the "minimal contacts" needed to establish that he does business in the US.  But it's been a while since I took Civ. Pro., so I could be wrong.


Minimal contacts means incredibly little if the contract


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


----------



## mustinjourney

LawrenceFamily said:


> I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.
> 
> It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!
> 
> It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own.
> 
> My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.



it's all relative though.  If you had 500 ressies at 200 points for one month -- then presumably you have been doing that same business for quite some time.  If so -- you SHOULD have a significant savings to weather this storm.

500 reservations at 200 points at $20 per point yields $2million in cash coming in.  $4.5 per point goes towards his operating revenue ($450k), and $14.5 per point goes to the owners (70% now and 30% SHOULD be in an escrow account of some sort) -- So $14.5*200*500*.7 is $1.015 million to owners and $435k to his escrow account.

Maybe I'm crazy -- but I would think that a company with this type of revenue would want to keep at least 3 or 4 million in the bank as a rainy day fund.  

And let's not forget he also should have money coming in from his travel agent side as well.  


Notwithstanding the above -- the actions currently being taken are incredibly short sighted.  He's managed to completely alienate his suppliers (owners) and piss off the buyers.  Even if he can get past the closings -- I'm not sure he's going to make it long term.  And it certainly won't be at the same level he was previously at.


----------



## mustinjourney

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I am going to reiterate on this post what I have said previously.  I am not a lawyer.  I am not providing legal advice.  I am just a law nerd who watches a LOT of boring you tube about this kind of stuff.  If you want to know about what you should do to protect your interests in your situation, contact a lawyer.  I am simply offering a legal hypothesis about how I think these kinds of situations would play out.  This whole situation is a hot mess and there's a fair chance i'm wrong.
> 
> You are not wrong on the difficulty for the renter getting a judgement against David's.  This is why i'm suggesting that the renters go the chargeback route, if they still can.  The credit card companies will attempt to take the money back from David's.  They will very likely return the money to the renter, even if the credit card companies are successful or not in getting the money back from David's.  Please see my previous post in this thread regarding Credit Card chargebacks and how they work for an explanation as to why the renter would still get their money back, even if David's is bankrupt, skips town, stonewalls, etc.
> 
> I literally talk about the difficulty in going after money in a lawsuit in the exact post of mine that you quoted.  Litigating against someone IS risky, expensive, and SLOW.  Now I do discuss it from the perspective of David's going after the DVC Owners for the 70% he's already paid them.  Most of the same points I bring up would be true for renters who wanted to file a suit against David's.  Although, there is a fair chance of a class-action suit since there are MANY owners and/or renters who may be due money from David's...but again, slow, risky, and expensive.  Chargebacks are generally quick, easy, and (I believe) have a high chance of success in this situation.
> 
> I still believe the "unjust encrichment" argument I pose is still valid, *IF the contract were being litigated under US law.*  If/when the contract is declared by a judge to fall under the Doctrine of Impossibility...THE WHOLE THING get's tossed.  Not just part of it.  ALL of it.  Essentially the judge declares that "everything will be as if the contract and transaction never existed at all."  He waves his magic gavel, and your points are now yours, David's money is now his.  The problem is that you are now in possession of David's money.  Hence why it's unjust enrichment...you now possess money that, legally, belongs to another.  He could, in theory, file a suit to get that money back.
> 
> When you said "the DVC owner is not be unjustly enriched." you are applying the term broadly, when I am using it in a very narrow legal definition.  I do agree with your broad application:  You did everything right.  You acted in good faith.  This was not your fault.  You thought you would be protected.  David's contract said you would be paid the remaining money on check in day.  You did nothing wrong.  I agree with all of that.  But NONE of that matters since, legally, that contract would no longer exist.  Which basically means that you received payment when nothing of value was provided in return.  The REASON that "nothing of value was provided in return" is because the judge voided your whole contract and transaction.  In the eyes of the law, it never happened...was never signed...everybody gets everything back...complete undo.
> 
> I understand that your points may be in a state that puts them in distress...there's a fair chance they can no longer be banked, they expire soon, or some other reason that you can no longer get the value of your points.  But they are YOUR points and now, since there is no longer a contract (since it's been voided by the court), that's YOUR problem...not David's.  What becomes your problem (from the court's perspective) is that you've now got a bunch of David's money.
> 
> Is that the right thing?  No.  I am not presenting what's right.  I'm presenting what I think will happen if this got litigated in a US court.
> 
> ...But...fortunately, David's own contract says that it isn't governed under the laws of the US...it's governed under the laws of Canada and Ontario.  And THAT version of this legal doctrine is a bit more friendly, I believe, towards the owners.
> 
> Please read my whole post above as to details about what I THINK would happen in a Canadian court.  Short version:
> 
> There's a chance that David's could be found to have provided an  implied insurance/guarantee on his end.  If so, he could be on the hook to you for the full amount.  Maybe the judge cuts the difference and says you get to keep your 70% and David's doesn't have to pay the remaining 30%.
> 
> If the judge finds that David's DIDN'T provide an implied insurance/guarantee, then the contract would fall to the Doctrine of Frustration under Canadian contract law.  This is very similar to what I said before...compete undo.  You get your points back, David's gets his money back...BUT there is a process in the law here that allows you to claim expenses for what you've done so far.
> I think that if your points are in a distressed state, you could make a claim for your cost in providing those points. (cost you paid to purchase those points for that one year, maintenance fees, etc.)  If your points are not in a distressed state (i.e. they can be banked, still valid, Disney returns borrowed points to their original use year, etc.) then you likely won't get to claim anything and would have to return the full amount to David's.
> 
> Now the amount you can claim WON'T be the amount specified you would be paid in the contract.  You don't get to make a profit.  It is limited to your REASONABLE costs in owning the points.  This is why I say the cost you paid for the points for the one year, plus annual dues, maybe you can claim some misc. expenses as well.  I don't know what would and would not be allowed.  That would likely be determined by a long precedence of Canadian case law that i'm not going to research.  I am guessing the amount would be roughly half of the total amount of money you would've gotten in total from David's.
> 
> I do believe the Canadian way of doing things is probably the most FAIR to David's and the Owner.  The pain is shared between them.



I'll save you the time -- I am an attorney.

I was trying to help you out.  Wasting time and effort on surmising what may or may not happen it court is a fool's errand if you can't ultimately collect the money.  THAT was the point of my post.


----------



## dragonflymom

Madame said:


> I am in in the exact same position.  Do not cancel the reservation nor refund the renter.  Let DVC cancel.  Wait until your points are unborrowed and refund David’s.  If DVC changes the policy before the reservation is cancelled, you’ll have to decide what to do.  I posted a screenshot of David’s response (apparently citing their lawyer) several pages back.  They are claiming that if points get stuck, owner must return the 70% anyway...



I am in a similar situation (mid-May reservation and also having reached out to renter offering to reschedule but they don't want to travel in next 12 months and already cancelled air, dining plan, etc.) In my case, half my points are banked points expiring this Aug. and half are current UY points that can still be salvaged if I bank by April 30.  I am leaning towards cancelling my reservation rather than waiting for Disney to do so so that I don't miss the banking deadline.  I would be returning my 70% to David's.  I realize I am breaching in this scenario but I am also returning the money.  The renter is super nice and we have exchanged multiple texts so I am pretty she won't come after me, in fact she indicated she would love to rent directly from me in the future once her family feels safe to travel again, so any other risk I need to worry about?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I am going to reiterate on this post what I have said previously.  I am not a lawyer.  I am not providing legal advice.  I am just a law nerd who watches a LOT of boring you tube about this kind of stuff.  If you want to know about what you should do to protect your interests in your situation, contact a lawyer.  I am simply offering a legal hypothesis about how I think these kinds of situations would play out.  This whole situation is a hot mess and there's a fair chance i'm wrong.
> 
> You are not wrong on the difficulty for the renter getting a judgement against David's.  This is why i'm suggesting that the renters go the chargeback route, if they still can.  The credit card companies will attempt to take the money back from David's.  They will very likely return the money to the renter, even if the credit card companies are successful or not in getting the money back from David's.  Please see my previous post in this thread regarding Credit Card chargebacks and how they work for an explanation as to why the renter would still get their money back, even if David's is bankrupt, skips town, stonewalls, etc.
> 
> I literally talk about the difficulty in going after money in a lawsuit in the exact post of mine that you quoted.  Litigating against someone IS risky, expensive, and SLOW.  Now I do discuss it from the perspective of David's going after the DVC Owners for the 70% he's already paid them.  Most of the same points I bring up would be true for renters who wanted to file a suit against David's.  Although, there is a fair chance of a class-action suit since there are MANY owners and/or renters who may be due money from David's...but again, slow, risky, and expensive.  Chargebacks are generally quick, easy, and (I believe) have a high chance of success in this situation.
> 
> I still believe the "unjust encrichment" argument I pose is still valid, *IF the contract were being litigated under US law.*  If/when the contract is declared by a judge to fall under the Doctrine of Impossibility...THE WHOLE THING get's tossed.  Not just part of it.  ALL of it.  Essentially the judge declares that "everything will be as if the contract and transaction never existed at all."  He waves his magic gavel, and your points are now yours, David's money is now his.  The problem is that you are now in possession of David's money.  Hence why it's unjust enrichment...you now possess money that, legally, belongs to another.  He could, in theory, file a suit to get that money back.
> 
> When you said "the DVC owner is not be unjustly enriched." you are applying the term broadly, when I am using it in a very narrow legal definition.  I do agree with your broad application:  You did everything right.  You acted in good faith.  This was not your fault.  You thought you would be protected.  David's contract said you would be paid the remaining money on check in day.  You did nothing wrong.  I agree with all of that.  But NONE of that matters since, legally, that contract would no longer exist.  Which basically means that you received payment when nothing of value was provided in return.  The REASON that "nothing of value was provided in return" is because the judge voided your whole contract and transaction.  In the eyes of the law, it never happened...was never signed...everybody gets everything back...complete undo.
> 
> I understand that your points may be in a state that puts them in distress...there's a fair chance they can no longer be banked, they expire soon, or some other reason that you can no longer get the value of your points.  But they are YOUR points and now, since there is no longer a contract (since it's been voided by the court), that's YOUR problem...not David's.  What becomes your problem (from the court's perspective) is that you've now got a bunch of David's money.
> 
> Is that the right thing?  No.  I am not presenting what's right.  I'm presenting what I think will happen if this got litigated in a US court.
> 
> ...But...fortunately, David's own contract says that it isn't governed under the laws of the US...it's governed under the laws of Canada and Ontario.  And THAT version of this legal doctrine is a bit more friendly, I believe, towards the owners.
> 
> Please read my whole post above as to details about what I THINK would happen in a Canadian court.  Short version:
> 
> There's a chance that David's could be found to have provided an  implied insurance/guarantee on his end.  If so, he could be on the hook to you for the full amount.  Maybe the judge cuts the difference and says you get to keep your 70% and David's doesn't have to pay the remaining 30%.
> 
> If the judge finds that David's DIDN'T provide an implied insurance/guarantee, then the contract would fall to the Doctrine of Frustration under Canadian contract law.  This is very similar to what I said before...compete undo.  You get your points back, David's gets his money back...BUT there is a process in the law here that allows you to claim expenses for what you've done so far.
> I think that if your points are in a distressed state, you could make a claim for your cost in providing those points. (cost you paid to purchase those points for that one year, maintenance fees, etc.)  If your points are not in a distressed state (i.e. they can be banked, still valid, Disney returns borrowed points to their original use year, etc.) then you likely won't get to claim anything and would have to return the full amount to David's.
> 
> Now the amount you can claim WON'T be the amount specified you would be paid in the contract.  You don't get to make a profit.  It is limited to your REASONABLE costs in owning the points.  This is why I say the cost you paid for the points for the one year, plus annual dues, maybe you can claim some misc. expenses as well.  I don't know what would and would not be allowed.  That would likely be determined by a long precedence of Canadian case law that i'm not going to research.  I am guessing the amount would be roughly half of the total amount of money you would've gotten in total from David's.
> 
> I do believe the Canadian way of doing things is probably the most FAIR to David's and the Owner.  The pain is shared between them.



Great job of research.  Really enjoy reading your posts.  I would only add that in court these types of cases are so fact dependent the case could come down to how many time an owner rented.  The current incident is my first time renting in 6 years.  OTH it seems common that other posters are renting multiple times a year.  A smart person suing that owner might allege it is not a consumer transaction at all but rather a regular course of business.  that would move the goal posts.

Lot to think about


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## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


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## Sandisw

dragonflymom said:


> I am in a similar situation (mid-May reservation and also having reached out to renter offering to reschedule but they don't want to travel in next 12 months and already cancelled air, dining plan, etc.) In my case, half my points are banked points expiring this Aug. and half are current UY points that can still be salvaged if I bank by April 30.  I am leaning towards cancelling my reservation rather than waiting for Disney to do so so that I don't miss the banking deadline.  I would be returning my 70% to David's.  I realize I am breaching in this scenario but I am also returning the money.  The renter is super nice and we have exchanged multiple texts so I am pretty she won't come after me, in fact she indicated she would love to rent directly from me in the future once her family feels safe to travel again, so any other risk I need to worry about?



Well, if you do the canceling, the renter is entitled to a refund, not a voucher,

If you are returning the money, Davids could still try to go after you for other things, but given the time sensitive matter of your banking window, I’d probably risk it.  I would include that in the email as well that you decided you needed to mitigate your losses and are returning the money.


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## YourEveryDayAdam

deleted


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## tubtruck

Maybe David will end up on Judge Judy.


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## Amymouse13

Hmm I'm waiting for the commercial on TV... Were you a dvc owner who was not paid by David's?  Were you a renter who got nothing?  Call the so and so law firm today.  We are pursuing a class action suit... Lol 

(This isn't real... Yet??)


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## Grumpy by Birth

Amymouse13 said:


> Hmm I'm waiting for the commercial on TV... Were you a dvc owner who was not paid by David's?  Were you a renter who got nothing?  *Call the so and so law firm today.  *We are pursuing a class action suit... Lol
> 
> (This isn't real... Yet??)


Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe.


----------



## Dracula

dragonflymom said:


> I am in a similar situation (mid-May reservation and also having reached out to renter offering to reschedule but they don't want to travel in next 12 months and already cancelled air, dining plan, etc.) In my case, half my points are banked points expiring this Aug. and half are current UY points that can still be salvaged if I bank by April 30.  I am leaning towards cancelling my reservation rather than waiting for Disney to do so so that I don't miss the banking deadline.  I would be returning my 70% to David's.  I realize I am breaching in this scenario but I am also returning the money.  The renter is super nice and we have exchanged multiple texts so I am pretty she won't come after me, in fact she indicated she would love to rent directly from me in the future once her family feels safe to travel again, so any other risk I need to worry about?


The renter may not be able to come after you if she tells you to cancel, but once you cancel she would have a very strong case to go after David with a credit card chargeback, and David would likewise have a very strong case to go after you for whatever other losses he incurred as part of the chargeback alleging you breached his contract.
It would be better to get David onboard with this plan as well, and sign a 3-way amendment to the contract outlining the new plan, and who pays back what money to whom.
On the other hand, if you wait there is still a chance the resorts would open mid-May and you would collect the remainder of 30%.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Amymouse13 said:


> Hmm I'm waiting for the commercial on TV... Were you a dvc owner who was not paid by David's?  Were you a renter who got nothing?  Call the so and so law firm today.  We are pursuing a class action suit... Lol
> 
> (This isn't real... Yet??)


I say it's time to hire Saul Goodman.  He'll do a bang-up job for sure!  But, there is always Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill.


----------



## izzy

Amymouse13 said:


> Hmm I'm waiting for the commercial on TV... Were you a dvc owner who was not paid by David's?  Were you a renter who got nothing?  Call the so and so law firm today.  We are pursuing a class action suit... Lol
> 
> (This isn't real... Yet??)



Morgan and Morgan. For the people. 

Couldn’t resist.  I get so tired of their commercials on the Orlando tv stations!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

(insert first name here) "The Hammer" (insert last name here)


----------



## LAX

Noodlez said:


> I feel the same.  I prefer to use a broker and I haven't seen anything yet which makes me think any of the others are better.



I don't rent on a regular basis, so I prefer using a broker, too. Plus, I thought the commission I would be paying provides the peace of mind (evidently not the case with David's). However, I have read at least one other broker that keeps paying the owners (the residual percentage at check-in date) through the closure. I am not sure what that broker has been doing for impacted renters, though. From an owner's perspective, that's a broker I would be more interested in working with in the future if I decide not to take on the risk myself. If I have to worry about some rare events (one in a lifetime perhaps) happening 11 months after I rent out my points, that's no more useful than trying to figure out how I can use instead lose them.

LAX


----------



## cmrdgrs

LAX said:


> I don't rent on a regular basis, so I prefer using a broker, too. Plus, I thought the commission I would be paying provides the peace of mind (evidently not the case with David's). However, I have read at least one other broker that keeps paying the owners (the residual percentage at check-in date) through the closure. I am not sure what that broker has been doing for impacted renters, though. From an owner's perspective, that's a broker I would be more interested in working with in the future if I decide not to take on the risk myself. If I have to worry about some rare events (one in a lifetime perhaps) happening 11 months after I rent out my points, that's no more useful than trying to figure out how I can use instead lose them.
> 
> LAX


I'm sure we would all like to know which broker that is. I have not heard this reported from any of the brokers.


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## mustinjourney

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> Thank you!  I enjoy writing them.  Any hypothetical cases are DEFINITELY going to be decided on many facts.  Many I likely can't even imagine.  I don't think it would necessarily come down to how many times an owner has rented.  Here's why I think that:
> 
> From David's agreement between the DVC owner and David's:
> 
> 
> This basically says that everyone is responsible for knowing HOW DVC works.  No one can claim ignorance.
> 
> I do have another legal theory that I might write up later about this particular clause in David's contract that might shift more responsibility between David's and DVC owners towards David's.  I do admit, it's a long shot and not likely...which is why I haven't written it up yet.  It's far more likely a court would just declare the contract to be frustrated/impossible and void the whole thing.



im sorry. But you have admitted you have zero legal training.

Even if you were a law student I would tell you to be careful bc there are rules about unauthorized practice of law. Researching on Wikipedia is not legal research.

you keep talking about how you’re not giving legal advice, yet you keep making opinions where you declare what is or isn’t legal.

The topic at hand is very complex. You have international laws, contract disputes, timeshare laws, state laws, choice of venue, choice of law, collections, escrow laws, General contract interpretations, etc.  just to name a few issues.

This is not something an armchair lawyer that reads a few wiki articles should be pontificating on what is and isn’t legal OR guesstimating how a court would rule.


----------



## LAX

cmrdgrs said:


> I'm sure we would all like to know which broker that is. I have not heard this reported from any of the brokers.



Admittedly, it was based on a post in one of the threads, so I am not even sure if it's an isolated case or "standard" practice at that particular broker. Unfortunately, I can't remember which thread it was to find out which broker that might be.

LAX


----------



## DisneyBB

Why is a David going after some to get the 70% back with a ‘lawyer’ type letter.  While others are keeping theirs?   Some with distressed points are still being asked to return the money.   If in an email he said the 70% can be kept for distressed points.  Is that an agreement that would stand up?


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## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> Why is a David going after some to get the 70% back with a ‘lawyer’ type letter.  While others are keeping theirs?   Some with distressed points are still being asked to return the money.   If in an email he said the 70% can be kept for distressed points.  Is that an agreement that would stand up?


In my emails from David’s they state they will keep the 30% due to me on Check in date to be used to compensate my renter.  I would only get this 30% back if I agreed to re-rent my points.  They have accepted I can keep the 70% already paid. My points are not distressed.


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## LawrenceFamily

mustinjourney said:


> it's all relative though.  If you had 500 ressies at 200 points for one month -- then presumably you have been doing that same business for quite some time.  If so -- you SHOULD have a significant savings to weather this storm.
> 
> 500 reservations at 200 points at $20 per point yields $2million in cash coming in.  $4.5 per point goes towards his operating revenue ($450k), and $14.5 per point goes to the owners (70% now and 30% SHOULD be in an escrow account of some sort) -- So $14.5*200*500*.7 is $1.015 million to owners and $435k to his escrow account.
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy -- but I would think that a company with this type of revenue would want to keep at least 3 or 4 million in the bank as a rainy day fund.
> 
> And let's not forget he also should have money coming in from his travel agent side as well.
> 
> Notwithstanding the above -- the actions currently being taken are incredibly short sighted.  He's managed to completely alienate his suppliers (owners) and piss off the buyers.  Even if he can get past the closings -- I'm not sure he's going to make it long term.  And it certainly won't be at the same level he was previously at.



Yes of course, this makes sense based on the assumption that he has 500 bookings every month at 200 points, retaining $4.50 per point. But I just threw that figure out there because I literally have no idea. Even on those numbers though at $450k a month, that's gross margin, not profit. You're not taking into account costs to the business.

With 30 staff, they'd have significant overheads such as salaries, rent, advertising, phones, systems, website, tax etc, so my point was more.....has David got millions of dollars sat in a business bank account ready to pay out all of the renters who want their money back? My guess would be no, because they are not big enough to have that amount of retained earnings after tax sat in a bank 'ready for a rainy day'.


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## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> In my emails from David’s they state they will keep the 30% due to me on Check in date to be used to compensate my renter.  I would only get this 30% back if I agreed to re-rent my points.  They have accepted I can keep the 70% already paid. My points are not distressed.



That's good to know but I am sure I have seen posts where owners are asked to return the 70% as well.


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## Maddiesmum03

DisneyBB said:


> That's good to know but I am sure I have seen posts where owners are asked to return the 70% as well.


David's cannot expect to have the money returned and use of the points as well.....talk about double dipping!!!!


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## DisneyBB

Maddiesmum03 said:


> David's cannot expect to have the money returned and use of the points as well.....talk about double dipping!!!!


I see sorry I phrased that badly.  I meant if the points were distressed he was still asking for the money back in some posts. I may have read it wrong though.  In my case if I wait for Disney the points are distressed and I can no longer use them.  But will he argue I can put them in RCI?  If not distressed then you are right he either re-rents or gets them money back.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> That's good to know but I am sure I have seen posts where owners are asked to return the 70% as well.


It seems like owners are being treated differently.  That's why I am holding off doing anything, incase their tune changes.


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## Maddiesmum03

DisneyBB said:


> I see sorry I phrased that badly.  I meant if the points were distressed he was still asking for the money back in some posts. I may have read it wrong though.  In my case if I wait for Disney the points are distressed and of can no longer use them.  But will he argue I can put them in RCI?  If not distressed then you are right he either re-rents or gets them money back.


Others may disagree with me from a legal standpoint, but in my eyes, those points are the ones he used for the reservation and I was paid for. I would still offer him the option to re rent them even if they are distressed and certainly not return the 70%. I have had such a conversation with one of his staff, as I originally thought the points from my end of March rental would not be returned to their original year and expire on 31st July 2020.


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## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> It seems like owners are being treated differently.  That's why I am holding off doing anything, incase their tune changes.


So in your case he is allowing you to keep the 70% and the points if the resort is closed?  Don't blame you for holding off if your points are not going to expire then you should be fine.  It is really weird how many different things he has told owners.  It worries me that he is going to flip around at the last min.  It is a matter of trust and not sure how emails hold up if he changes his mind.


----------



## DisneyBB

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Others may disagree with me from a legal standpoint, but in my eyes, those points are the ones he used for the reservation and I was paid for. I would still offer him the option to re rent them even if they are distressed and certainly not return the 70%. I have had such a conversation with one of his staff, as I originally thought the points from my end of March rental would not be returned to their original year and expire on 31st July 2020.


So if he can't re-rent them due to them expiring, then you have completed your contract?  And you don't have any more input?

This is my situation mine will expire unless I act soon.


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## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> So in your case he is allowing you to keep the 70% and the points if the resort is closed?  Don't blame you for holding off if your points are not going to expire then you should be fine.  It is really weird how many different things he has told owners.  It worries me that he is going to flip around at the last min.  It is a matter of trust and not sure how emails hold up if he changes his mind.



Yes. I want to help my renter if I can and would refund them directly if it was an option.  It's not. I don't agree with David's approach.


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## Maddiesmum03

DisneyBB said:


> So if he can't re-rent them due to them expiring, then you have completed your contract?  And you don't have any more input?
> 
> This is my situation mine will expire unless I act soon.


That is how I would have left it, unless he got his legal team involved retrospectively. BUT....my situation for that rental was different as it was the week the parks were closed but the resort still open, so they agreed I had fulfilled my contract and I got the remaining 30%, I then had my points returned to Aug 2020 use year, so he has use of points that are good through til next summer, but that wasn't the case when I was paid the 30%.
I have another rental that was due a couple of days ago. I have not received the 30% and have been told that I will receive the remaining 30% when I book a new reservation.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DisneyBB said:


> Why is a David going after some to get the 70% back with a ‘lawyer’ type letter.  While others are keeping theirs?   Some with distressed points are still being asked to return the money.   If in an email he said the 70% can be kept for distressed points.  Is that an agreement that would stand up?


That's a very good question.  I have a friend who rented through David and his rental was in March. The resort was open for the guest's entire stay, but the renter did not check-in to the room (I believe their were travel issues for the renter due to the pandemic).  The owner was originally told they would be paid for the rental in full, but then David's did not pay the owner the final 30%.  There is inconsistency on the part of the broker going on for sure.


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## Amymouse13

Here is a theory David's may be banking on... https://www.piratesandprincesses.ne...ld-to-remain-closed-for-the-rest-of-2020/amp/

Cash bookings bc there isn't dvc availability... No refunds, then Disney is closed he only needs to front cash until Disney actually reopens?  Then when they don't, he has gotten renters to waive chargeback or refund if park closed, and he keeps cash... 

Just a theory...


----------



## mgarbowski

Amymouse13 said:


> Here is a theory David's may be banking on... https://www.piratesandprincesses.ne...ld-to-remain-closed-for-the-rest-of-2020/amp/
> Cash bookings bc there isn't dvc availability... No refunds, then Disney is closed he only needs to front cash until Disney actually reopens?  Then when they don't, he has gotten renters to waive chargeback or refund if park closed, and he keeps cash...
> Just a theory...


That headline is dramatic, but the article only says Disney is developing a worst case contingency plan in which the parks remain closed through 2020. This should be no surprise at all. Disney execs would be incompetent if they did not plan for that as a possibility, but that does not mean it is particularly likely and David's would be foolish to make a plan that depends on it.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

cmrdgrs said:


> That's a very good question.  I have a friend who rented through David and his rental was in March. The resort was open for the guest's entire stay, but the renter did not check-in to the room (I believe their were travel issues for the renter due to the pandemic).  The owner was originally told they would be paid for the rental in full, but then David's did not pay the owner the final 30%.  There is inconsistency on the part of the broker going on for sure.


That is totally inconsistent to what happened to me. There were a few emails backwards and forwards before I got payment, but I said I would not re rent points without the 30%. I had completely fulfilled my part of the contract as the resort was open and renter could have checked in. Disney cancelled the reservation on the day of check in.  At the time the points were still sitting in 2019 UY, I stated that to me the value of those points were now worth only 30% of the value they were when I rented them, therefore I would keep the points as recompense if I did not get the money owed.


----------



## mgarbowski

GrumpyInPhilly said:


> I've rented several times in the past.  No more!  I just did my first transfer thru the site sponsor.


This is the second reference I've seen to this transfer option, and I have no idea what it is. Can you or someone else elaborate please?


----------



## cmrdgrs

mgarbowski said:


> This is the second reference I've seen to this transfer option, and I have no idea what it is. Can you or someone else elaborate please?


A short veer off topic... DVC members can transfer points between each others memberships.  Certain rules apply ==>_DVC Website Link_


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## BWV Dreamin

cmrdgrs said:


> A short veer off topic... DVC members can transfer points between each others memberships.  Certain rules apply ==>_DVC Website Link_


But that is done “ without” any fees, correct?


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## BWV Dreamin

I think Timeshare Store can help with transfers. Does anyone know what the transfer rate is for the owner?


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## Disaseny

Disney officially cancelled my room for next week yesterday. I emailed David's yesterday and pointed out the two sections of my contract about what I purchased room X at X for dates xxxx-xxxx. I also highlighted the part about if the accommodation a are not available and we can't have suitable comparable accommodations than I am so a refund. Their response....just an canned email about the travel credit and a statement that they will be contacting me about the terms and conditions and they are working in sequential order. I am not waiting on them to get their stuff together i filed a chargeback request with Chase this morning.


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## cmrdgrs

BWV Dreamin said:


> But that is done “ without” any fees, correct?


DVC doesn't charge a transfer fee.  Some use escrow services of one type or another.  For me, this is just a different form of a rental that [as always] needs trust.  Just like a rental, the owner is generally paid first, then the transfer occurs.  Transfer is a final transaction.


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## merry_nbright

Disaseny said:


> Disney officially cancelled my room for next week yesterday. I emailed David's yesterday and pointed out the two sections of my contract about what I purchased room X at X for dates xxxx-xxxx. I also highlighted the part about if the accommodation a are not available and we can't have suitable comparable accommodations than I am so a refund. Their response....just an canned email about the travel credit and a statement that they will be contacting me about the terms and conditions and they are working in sequential order. I am not waiting on them to get their stuff together i filed a chargeback request with Chase this morning.



Mine isn’t until June and I’m super worried that if I do the chargeback, I’ll get nothing. That was why I was banking on the whole cash Disney bookings. It’s such a mess.


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## Friendlyadvice2

BWV Dreamin said:


> But that is done “ without” any fees, correct?





cmrdgrs said:


> DVC doesn't charge a transfer fee.  Some use escrow services of one type or another.  For me, this is just a different form of a rental that [as always] needs trust.  Just like a rental, the owner is generally paid first, then the transfer occurs.  Transfer is a final transaction.



FWIW, DVC rules state that points cannot be transferred between owners for compensation (note, I'm not saying it doesn't happen).  DVC charges no fees to conduct a transfer between members.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Maddiesmum03 said:


> That is totally inconsistent to what happened to me. There were a few emails backwards and forwards before I got payment, but I said I would not re rent points without the 30%. I had completely fulfilled my part of the contract as the resort was open and renter could have checked in. Disney cancelled the reservation on the day of check in.  At the time the points were still sitting in 2019 UY, I stated that to me the value of those points were now worth only 30% of the value they were when I rented them, therefore I would keep the points as recompense if I did not get the money owed.


Initially my friend was told by David that he would be paid the final 30% by David (when this all had just started and no one knew the extent of the shutdown), but he has now backtracked on that and is refusing to pay out the last 30%.  He has some other rentals too, and since David didn't pay out the 30% he is not willing to return the 70% on the other rentals. Oy vey.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

cmrdgrs said:


> Initially my friend was told by David that he would be paid the final 30% by David (when this all had just started and no one knew the extent of the shutdown), but he has now backtracked on that and is refusing to pay out the last 30%.  He has some other rentals too, and since David didn't pay out the 30% he is not willing to return the 70% on the other rentals. Oy vey.


I agree, the whole thing is very messy, I am still to receive the 30% due two days ago, which if they are true to their word (!) I should get if I re-rent those points, but I also had rented out my 2021 points in February with him, for December/January rentals and I am just keeping my fingers crossed that a) the parks and resorts have all reopened and b) that he is still in business then!     But your friend should surely get the 30% owed for the reservation when the resorts were still open. What excuse is he using to withhold what is due?


----------



## cmrdgrs

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I agree, the whole thing is very messy, I am still to receive the 30% due two days ago, which if they are true to their word (!) I should get if I re-rent those points, but I also had rented out my 2021 points in February with him, for December/January rentals and I am just keeping my fingers crossed that a) the parks and resorts have all reopened and b) that he is still in business then!     But your friend should surely get the 30% owed for the reservation when the resorts were still open. What excuse is he using to withhold what is due?


I honestly am not privy to the entire details.  It probably has to do with the other 70% he was paid and their disagreement on those rentals.  The bottom line is that the bond of trust has been broken.  I think more people would be willing (if they are able) to refund the money back to David if they knew the renter was getting back their money.  But, the voucher David is offering is just a complete shaft IMO, and if renters are taking that deal (which I'm sure many are) that is just adding to the ire of owners.


----------



## moab44

If I accept the voucher and try to rebook for next April what are chances of getting into the Beach Club?  The cost calculator is still on Dave’s site and it goes to next April. If I was able to get a room and Dave’s goes under. Do I get to keep the reservation? From what I understand from my email if I book for next April and the park is still closed I lose it all.


----------



## cmrdgrs

moab44 said:


> If I accept the voucher and try to rebook for next April what are chances of getting into the Beach Club?  The cost calculator is still on Dave’s site and it goes to next April. If I was able to get a room and Dave’s goes under. Do I get to keep the reservation? From what I understand from my email if I book for next April and the park is still closed I lose it all.


This is the reason I would not be willing to accept the voucher.  It seems to me that agreeing to the voucher supersedes and eliminates whatever little protection was in your original agreement with David. On top of that, I personally, would not be willing to accept a one time credit and if this happens all over again I'm out everything.  Plus -- my understanding from what I read is that you need to pay a new $98 fee to David in order to have his team find you a new rental?  WTH is with that?

IMO David is basically bullying renters into taking the voucher because renters are not being given any other option.  He won't pair renters with their owners, if owners give back the money he won't return it to renters.  He won't allow anyone to talk and salvage what they can.  IMO he is taking a bad situation and just making it worse.  Renters aren't happy - Owners aren't happy - and clearly he still wants to be paid money.


----------



## Sandisw

merry_nbright said:


> Mine isn’t until June and I’m super worried that if I do the chargeback, I’ll get nothing. That was why I was banking on the whole cash Disney bookings. It’s such a mess.



Honestly, I’m feeling confident that DVC resorts will be open, even if parks are not, If that is the case, you may not have an option for a travel voucher,

Things in Florida are better than expected, and it is in DVCs best interest to get the resorts open to stop the loss of points to the system.


----------



## mustinjourney

LawrenceFamily said:


> Yes of course, this makes sense based on the assumption that he has 500 bookings every month at 200 points, retaining $4.50 per point. But I just threw that figure out there because I literally have no idea. Even on those numbers though at $450k a month, that's gross margin, not profit. You're not taking into account costs to the business.
> 
> With 30 staff, they'd have significant overheads such as salaries, rent, advertising, phones, systems, website, tax etc, so my point was more.....has David got millions of dollars sat in a business bank account ready to pay out all of the renters who want their money back? My guess would be no, because they are not big enough to have that amount of retained earnings after tax sat in a bank 'ready for a rainy day'.


At no point did I surmise how much he had in profit.  I clearly stated revenue.  So please do not tell me what I did or did not take into account.  Again, my point was that it is all relative.  The more revenue you bring in, the larger your rainy day fund needs to be.  Just like my 6 months of living expenses differs drastically with someone like Bill Gates.

Second -- according to David himself, in a posting I saw on a different site, he actually has over 40 employees.

Notwithstanding the above, we have no idea how he pays his employees or what his overhead costs are.  If he's paying commissions, then this situation should not affect his business as much as if he pays straight hourly or salary.  But if he's not making at least 33% net revenue on this business model, his expenses are far too high.


----------



## GoingSince1990

Amymouse13 said:


> Hmm I'm waiting for the commercial on TV... Were you a dvc owner who was not paid by David's?  Were you a renter who got nothing?  Call the so and so law firm today.  We are pursuing a class action suit... Lol
> 
> (This isn't real... Yet??)


I guarantee that you will never see this commercial on TV. Law firms will only invest the huge expense and time needed for a class action lawsuit when there is a corporation with millions of dollars in enormous deep pockets to go after. Which David’s most assuredly is not.


----------



## Sandisw

moab44 said:


> If I accept the voucher and try to rebook for next April what are chances of getting into the Beach Club?  The cost calculator is still on Dave’s site and it goes to next April. If I was able to get a room and Dave’s goes under. Do I get to keep the reservation? From what I understand from my email if I book for next April and the park is still closed I lose it all.



If he secures it with a new owner, and then goes under, There is a good chance the owner will cut their losses and you will be out the reservation,

If you take the voucher, IMO, I’d opt for a reservation not booked on points, but through Disney directly.  The chances there are greater,


----------



## GrumpyInPhilly

BWV Dreamin said:


> I think Timeshare Store can help with transfers. Does anyone know what the transfer rate is for the owner?



$15.50 pp


----------



## GrumpyInPhilly

cmrdgrs said:


> DVC doesn't charge a transfer fee.  Some use escrow services of one type or another.  For me, this is just a different form of a rental that [as always] needs trust.  Just like a rental, the owner is generally paid first, then the transfer occurs.  Transfer is a final transaction.



Using The Timeshare Store to facilitate the process, the owner gets paid after the transfer has occurred.


----------



## Dracula

Sandisw said:


> Honestly, I’m feeling confident that DVC resorts will be open, even if parks are not, If that is the case, you may not have an option for a travel voucher,
> 
> Things in Florida are better than expected, and it is in DVCs best interest to get the resorts open to stop the loss of points to the system.


Beyond the drop in new contract sales - which is totally understandable, since cruises and theme parks are shuttered, how exactly is Disney losing from the loss of points to the system? As far as Disney is concerned, DVC members need to keep paying their hefty dues, whether they get to use their points or the points go to waste, the loss is on the members so far. If we fail to pay the monthly dues, Disney would promptly foreclose on our timeshares, and our investment turns to pixie dust, along with our credit scores.

I always saw a large international guest presence at WDW. It is great that Florida has few cases on its own, but where would the guests come from? Only Florida, or maybe China? Italy? Spain? UK? New York? Until the pandemic is controlled worldwide, or a cure has been found, WDW would not be in business as usual, no matter how many cases Florida has.


----------



## merry_nbright

Sandisw said:


> Honestly, I’m feeling confident that DVC resorts will be open, even if parks are not, If that is the case, you may not have an option for a travel voucher,
> 
> Things in Florida are better than expected, and it is in DVCs best interest to get the resorts open to stop the loss of points to the system.



If the parks aren’t open, what’s the point?


----------



## yankeesfan123

merry_nbright said:


> If the parks aren’t open, what’s the point?


The point is that the resort is open, which is what you contracted for.

Open resort = (likely) no voucher. 

If that ends up being the case with me, where the parks are closed but resort is open, I may try to settle my claim directly with David’s for less than the value of what I paid (which, if the points aren’t distressed, would benefit us both), or try to deal with the owner directly to rebook me with some financial enticements. I would not plan to go if the parks were not open.


----------



## Sandisw

merry_nbright said:


> If the parks aren’t open, what’s the point?



I do get that...but, unfortunately, when you are dealing with a DVC reservation that is there, the owner and the broker are providing what you bought.  

Just trying to let you know that there is a chance your reservation will be there.


----------



## GoingSince1990

merry_nbright said:


> If the parks aren’t open, what’s the point?


I've never done it, but I quite often see people mentioning "no park" trips to Disney World.


----------



## SherylLC

Amymouse13 said:


> Hmm I'm waiting for the commercial on TV... Were you a dvc owner who was not paid by David's?  Were you a renter who got nothing?  Call the so and so law firm today.  We are pursuing a class action suit... Lol
> 
> (This isn't real... Yet??)


But seriously, is this not class action lawsuit material?


----------



## merry_nbright

yankeesfan123 said:


> The point is that the resort is open, which is what you contracted for.
> 
> Open resort = (likely) no voucher.
> 
> If that ends up being the case with me, where the parks are closed but resort is open, I may try to settle my claim directly with David’s for less than the value of what I paid (which, if the points aren’t distressed, would benefit us both), or try to deal with the owner directly to rebook me with some financial enticements. I would not plan to go if the parks were not open.



Yeah, that might be the best option if the resorts are open and the parks are not. It’s a painful waiting game.


----------



## Dracula

SherylLC said:


> But seriously, is this not class action lawsuit material?


Class action lawsuits mostly benefit the attorneys. Call it "just enrichment". Owners may get an additional $1 per point, if lucky. Not worth the aggravation, IMHO. Where would the cash even come from? It has already been established that David runs an asset-light business. I would rather have David remain in business and continue to provide a safe, competitive marketplace for owners and renters.


----------



## mgarbowski

cmrdgrs said:


> A short veer off topic... DVC members can transfer points between each others memberships.  Certain rules apply ==>_DVC Website Link_


Thanks. I knew about transferring to another member but did not think there was any sort of market for it.


----------



## merry_nbright

Sandisw said:


> I do get that...but, unfortunately, when you are dealing with a DVC reservation that is there, the owner and the broker are providing what you bought.
> 
> Just trying to let you know that there is a chance your reservation will be there.



Painfully annoying. I’m at AKL, so who knows at this point? This will be the last time I ever rent points, sadly. Has not been a pleasant experience.


----------



## Dracula

merry_nbright said:


> Painfully annoying. I’m at AKL, so who knows at this point? This will be the last time I ever rent points, sadly. Has not been a pleasant experience.


Sorry to hear that. But these are some exceptional circumstances - over 42,000 dead in the US, 16,500 dead in the UK and 1,700 dead in Canada, about 1 in 4 Americans without a job, much of the population imprisoned in their homes, retirement savings cut, many companies essentially bankrupt and on government provided life support, oil price turned negative for the first time in history. I am hard pressed to see many people able to get a pleasant experience. We all need to try to make the best of this situation - we are in this together, need to come out together, and help each other rebuild our lives. 

It would be interesting to see if DVC resale prices would ever turn negative, like the timeshares in Cancun where you can actually get paid to take a contract, and everyone can enjoy the DVC resorts for less than the annual dues.

Until then, know you're not alone - everyone in the first world is stressed about where they would go on vacation this year, and whether they still have a job, or other income, in a few months.


----------



## mustinjourney

Sandisw said:


> If he secures it with a new owner, and then goes under, There is a good chance the owner will cut their losses and you will be out the reservation,
> 
> If you take the voucher, IMO, I’d opt for a reservation not booked on points, but through Disney directly.  The chances there are greater,


how would this work?  Wouldn't David just have to pay for the first night's stay to secure a hotel room, with the balance being due at check-in?  If so, could the person get stuck holding the bag?  I'd be shocked if disney is going to care what is going on with David's and the renter.


----------



## Fred M

mustinjourney said:


> im sorry. But you have admitted you have zero legal training.
> 
> Even if you were a law student I would tell you to be careful bc there are rules about unauthorized practice of law. Researching on Wikipedia is not legal research.
> 
> you keep talking about how you’re not giving legal advice, yet you keep making opinions where you declare what is or isn’t legal.
> 
> The topic at hand is very complex. You have international laws, contract disputes, timeshare laws, state laws, choice of venue, choice of law, collections, escrow laws, General contract interpretations, etc.  just to name a few issues.
> 
> This is not something an armchair lawyer that reads a few wiki articles should be pontificating on what is and isn’t legal OR guesstimating how a court would rule.



I have to agree wholeheartedly with this. I've been practicing law for 25 years in California and the legal issues with David's is something I wouldn't wade into. @YourEveryDayAdam, I appreciate the fact that this is a hobby for you, it's fun, and your intent is to not offer legal advice. But people will often read what they want to read, and you can't keep someone from construing your posts as legal advice. Also, your research is limited. For instance, you keep referencing the "doctrine of impossibility" and "unjust enrichment" but haven't even touched on issues like adhesion contracts and liquidated damages. Notwithstanding the fact that the laws in California are going to be different from New Jersey, Florida, Canada, the UK, and wherever else an owner lives who used David's.

@mustinjourney has pointed out the complexity of this issue and has offered some sage advice. You should really follow it.


----------



## merry_nbright

Dracula said:


> Until then, know you're not alone - everyone in the first world is stressed about where they would go on vacation this year, and whether they still have a job, or other income, in a few months.



Thankfully, I still have a job. I work for doctors. I live with them. I also haven’t left the house in over a month. I’m just mainly worrying about losing my money and making sure my parents, who live 7 hours away, stay put in their house. This is true insanity.


----------



## mustinjourney

SherylLC said:


> But seriously, is this not class action lawsuit material?



I do not specialize in class action lawsuits -- but it would seem that there could be issues getting certification for a breach of contract claim b/c breach of contract is typically so fact-intensive and individualized with respect to a "meeting of the minds."



> Assuming that the Avritts’ interpretation of the contract is plausible, however, *the existence of two or more reasonable interpretations opens the door for extrinsic evidence about what each party intended when it entered the contract*. In addition to extrinsic evidence about Northern’s intent, Reliastar would be entitled to introduce evidence about how the contract was explained in various sales discussions and whether each purchaser’s understanding of the contract was consistent with the theory the Avritts now advance. Thus, Reliastar’s liability to the entire class for breach of contract cannot be established with common evidence.



https://www.classactioncountermeasu...of-contract-class-actions-avritt-v-reliastar/
I have no idea how Canada might rule -- but this would likely be a hurdle that would need to be overcome to ultimately be successful.

And last, but not least, if David's is insolvent, there won't be any attorneys willing to take the case b/c they don't want to waste their own time and money chasing something that won't payoff.


----------



## Noodlez

Dracula said:


> I would rather have David remain in business and continue to provide a safe, competitive marketplace for owners and renters.



I completely agree with this.  I'm not saying that David's have dealt with this perfectly, but I haven't heard of any other brokers doing better!  I understand some people are very upset that points may expire without being used to their 'value', but that is an issue with DVC rather than Davids.

From what I have heard, they have asked owners to re-book if possible. This is completely understandable. They're still offering the same amount you agreed to accept for your points, they're just hoping you can move them!

Rather than asking renters to re-book in such uncertain times they are giving them a voucher so they can re-book at any time they choose in the next year or two. This seems to be a lot better than some other brokers are offering.

They're doing this because they want to keep the business afloat! Of course they should have some reserves, but Virgin Australia went into administration today and Virgin Atlantic looks likely to follow. These are massive companies but they can't cope with this unprecedented amount of refunds. Everyone has different circumstances, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone to take the voucher if they need the money, but for those that can afford to wait you may be helping a company stay afloat and keep people in jobs, as well as ensuring that everyone who does take this option still has a broker to work with!


----------



## mel&me

GoingSince1990 said:


> I've never done it, but I quite often see people mentioning "no park" trips to Disney World.


I have done this before,
And Last time I went  October 2019 I did go into the parks but only 2 days was down for 9 days.
I have been to disney several times and sometimes just enjoy the resorts and do other things around town. Lots to do and see that is not disney. But am a member and always stay at the DVC resorts.
Always have a rental car.


----------



## Dracula

FWIW, major European airline Ryanair is no longer giving passengers on cancelled flights refunds, they need to accept credit vouchers until "the COVID-19 emergency has passed". Air Canada is doing the same. Can we really expect anything more from David?


----------



## Madame

Noodlez said:


> I completely agree with this.  I'm not saying that David's have dealt with this perfectly, but I haven't heard of any other brokers doing better!  I understand some people are very upset that points may expire without being used to their 'value', but that is an issue with DVC rather than Davids.
> 
> From what I have heard, they have asked owners to re-book if possible. This is completely understandable. They're still offering the same amount you agreed to accept for your points, they're just hoping you can move them!
> 
> Rather than asking renters to re-book in such uncertain times they are giving them a voucher so they can re-book at any time they choose in the next year or two. This seems to be a lot better than some other brokers are offering.
> 
> They're doing this because they want to keep the business afloat! Of course they should have some reserves, but Virgin Australia went into administration today and Virgin Atlantic looks likely to follow. These are massive companies but they can't cope with this unprecedented amount of refunds. Everyone has different circumstances, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone to take the voucher if they need the money, but for those that can afford to wait you may be helping a company stay afloat and keep people in jobs, as well as ensuring that everyone who does take this option still has a broker to work with!


Many are thoroughly frustrated that *many* businesses (big & small) do not put away sufficient funds for emergencies and are given a pass or worse are the first to line up with hand extended for a bailout.  Yet, at the same time, Joe & Jane public are supposed to be responsible, are supposed to have 3-6 months of reserves tucked away.  

Yeah I get it, businesses have most of their funds tied up in XYZ yada yada yada.  This happens over & over & over again though.  No sympathy whatsoever especially given what we know about the owner of said business & his lifestyle...


----------



## Madame

Dracula said:


> FWIW, major European airline Ryanair is no longer giving passengers on cancelled flights refunds, they need to accept credit vouchers until "the COVID-19 emergency has passed". Air Canada is doing the same. Can we really expect anything more from David?


No.  I expect more from all businesses.


----------



## mustinjourney

Madame said:


> Many are thoroughly frustrated that *many* businesses (big & small) do not put away sufficient funds for emergencies and are given a pass or worse are the first to line up with hand extended for a bailout.  Yet, at the same time, Joe & Jane public are supposed to be responsible, are supposed to have 3-6 months of reserves tucked away.
> 
> Yeah I get it, businesses have most of their funds tied up in XYZ yada yada yada.  This happens over & over & over again though.  No sympathy whatsoever especially given what we know about the owner of said business & his lifestyle...



I generally agree with you --- my only comment is that this shouldn't be considered a bailout.  This is a government forced shutdown, which is akin to a "taking" by the government.  Ergo, there should be compensation for the taking.


----------



## GoingSince1990

Dracula said:


> FWIW, major European airline Ryanair is no longer giving passengers on cancelled flights refunds, they need to accept credit vouchers until "the COVID-19 emergency has passed". Air Canada is doing the same. Can we really expect anything more from David?


Not quite true. Refunds are still available, as European law requires, but Ryanair is warning that they will take a long time to process and is very strongly pushing passengers to accept vouchers instead.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...ter-fresh-ryanair-u-turn-on-refunds-1.4233483


----------



## Madame

mustinjourney said:


> I generally agree with you --- my only comment is that this shouldn't be considered a bailout.  This is a government forced shutdown, which is akin to a "taking" by the government.  Ergo, there should be compensation for the taking.


I understand many here don’t agree, but the longest bull market run in history was already going to end poorly - no matter how many billions were being pumped into the US economy it was clear the run was over & being artificially sustained.  No matter the trigger event, responsible businesses should have been prepping for a downturn, David’s included.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

FYI - According to Chase - a voucher offered that I will not be able to use is grounds for a charge back that I would win if Covid is the reason


----------



## Noodlez

> No matter the trigger event, responsible businesses should have been prepping for a downturn, David’s included.



I'm really not trying to side with 'big business' here, and there are many things I would like to change about the way things are run.  I'm also unhappy about some of the people asking for bailouts, but that isn't what David's is doing.  Of course we should expect companies to be able to support themselves when there is a downturn in business, but I can't think of many companies that could put enough aside to not have any income at all for months on end, whilst not laying anyone off and paying their staff full wages for the entire time, as well as refunding all of their customers for money already paid!


----------



## cmrdgrs

This is a question that's probably rhetorical in nature, but some type of law applies to brokers.  Their businesses for some reason aren't an escrow company (which I don't understand).  I guess I'm just wondering because some body of law governs what the brokers can and cannot do, no?  Exactly what is a broker?  A travel agent?  A realtor?  What type of business are they?


----------



## McCrae

Noodlez said:


> I completely agree with this.  I'm not saying that David's have dealt with this perfectly, but I haven't heard of any other brokers doing better!  I understand some people are very upset that points may expire without being used to their 'value', but that is an issue with DVC rather than Davids.
> 
> From what I have heard, they have asked owners to re-book if possible. This is completely understandable. They're still offering the same amount you agreed to accept for your points, they're just hoping you can move them!
> 
> Rather than asking renters to re-book in such uncertain times they are giving them a voucher so they can re-book at any time they choose in the next year or two. This seems to be a lot better than some other brokers are offering.
> 
> They're doing this because they want to keep the business afloat! Of course they should have some reserves, but Virgin Australia went into administration today and Virgin Atlantic looks likely to follow. These are massive companies but they can't cope with this unprecedented amount of refunds. Everyone has different circumstances, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone to take the voucher if they need the money, but for those that can afford to wait you may be helping a company stay afloat and keep people in jobs, as well as ensuring that everyone who does take this option still has a broker to work with!



Priority for David’s has not been to rebook renters. His priority has been to ask owners to give him money that he can use for his business.  He does not encourage owners to contact renters with offers of support. Things would be a lot easier if his focus was on helping renters. Most owners would support this.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Earlier someone had posted comparing the owners and DVC to owning a house that is being managed.  This has led to some speculation on my part.  It seems to me that if I had a house rented to an agent, and that agent never contacted me about the agent getting told to let the renter leave/throw renter out or stop renting then that agent really messed up and owes me.

If "DISNEY" ordered the DVC to close, or just asked DVC to close then owners seem to be entitled to notice.  The amount of money at stake to DVC (owners) is more than enough to justify an attorney or 2 to look at a class action.  DVC can not serve two masters.  Yet I have not really seen any information about this other than the it was not the state of FL that forced the DVC closing, instead time shares were specifically allowed to continue.  Disney is a deep pocket.  there are lots of questions about the 'money' relationship between DVC and Disney.  I would bet there are a lot of interesting transcripts and emails here.


----------



## Madame

Noodlez said:


> I'm really not trying to side with 'big business' here, and there are many things I would like to change about the way things are run.  I'm also unhappy about some of the people asking for bailouts, but that isn't what David's is doing.  Of course we should expect companies to be able to support themselves when there is a downturn in business, but I can't think of many companies that could put enough aside to not have any income at all for months on end, whilst not laying anyone off and paying their staff full wages for the entire time, as well as refunding all of their customers for money already paid!


Then you lay people off.  We have VERY generous support available for workers who are laid off due to COVID in Canada.  It’s weekly as well, not a one time lump sum.


----------



## disneypharm

Noodlez said:


> *From what I have heard, they have asked owners to re-book if possible. *This is completely understandable. They're still offering the same amount you agreed to accept for your points, they're just hoping you can move them!



Not from what I have seen!  “Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.”

I have emailed twice asking to contact the owner to reschedule and both times received a standard email to wait!!


----------



## foodiddiedoo

I finally got my email form David's today, since I'm in the middle of the process of a chargeback should I just choose to ignore it while I wait for a resolution?


----------



## tubtruck

GoingSince1990 said:


> Not quite true. Refunds are still available, as European law requires, but Ryanair is warning that they will take a long time to process and is very strongly pushing passengers to accept vouchers instead.
> https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...ter-fresh-ryanair-u-turn-on-refunds-1.4233483


Its very true. I applied for a refund on the 20th March after a flight from UK to Tenerife was cancelled. The EU law states that a refund must be given within 7 days. I received an email from Ryan air today, over a month later offering nothing but a voucher.
The majority of European airlines have removed the facility to ask for a refund online, many including the likes of BA, KLM, Lufthansa and TAP Portugal to name a few have removed any online refund option offering a phone number that is never answered even if waiting hours and simply ignoring the law on the right to a 7 day refund and are offering vouchers with conditions attached refunds only.


----------



## banzai75

foodiddiedoo said:


> I finally got my email form David's today, since I'm in the middle of the process of a chargeback should I just choose to ignore it while I wait for a resolution?



I would ignore it.  I am in same boat as you.  But just started my chargeback process.


----------



## JasonV

For anyone thinking of accepting the credit, any change you can argue to have some of the terms and conditions removed.  Some of these are just ridiculous!

_In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue._

He want us to give him more money just to book a reservation.  Being from Canada I would lose on the exchange even if the same dollar value was refunded.

_David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit._

Who would ever agree to a condition like this one?


----------



## meryll83

foodiddiedoo said:


> I finally got my email form David's today, since I'm in the middle of the process of a chargeback should I just choose to ignore it while I wait for a resolution?





banzai75 said:


> I would ignore it.  I am in same boat as you.  But just started my chargeback process.


My bank told me to tell them I did not accept the credit and that I was taking it further through them.

I left it slightly more open than a flat out decline and replied...

“As you advised me in your previous email on XXXX that the reservation I have paid for no longer exists, the options below aren’t both valid and therefore unfair.

As previously advised in my email from XXXX, given you have not provided a refund as requested, I am taking this further through my credit provider.“


----------



## Sandisw

mustinjourney said:


> how would this work?  Wouldn't David just have to pay for the first night's stay to secure a hotel room, with the balance being due at check-in?  If so, could the person get stuck holding the bag?  I'd be shocked if disney is going to care what is going on with David's and the renter.



I agree that the voucher is a bad idea...was just trying to say that if one is going to use it, I wouldn’t get involved in another points based rental,

But, if I was the person using the voucher, you bring up a great point to suggest that the cash reservation be paid in full at me of booking with Disney.


----------



## Dracula

GoingSince1990 said:


> Not quite true. Refunds are still available, as European law requires, but Ryanair is warning that they will take a long time to process and is very strongly pushing passengers to accept vouchers instead.
> https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...ter-fresh-ryanair-u-turn-on-refunds-1.4233483



This was a posting today on the blog hosted by the Guardian (sorry, not sure how to provide a link):

*Ryanair* has told passengers they will have to wait until “the Covid-19 emergency has passed” if they want a refund for a cancelled flight, writes *Miles Brignall*, Guardian money reporter.​Last month Europe’s biggest budget airline was offering passengers on cancelled flights the option of a refund within 20 working days, via its website.​The airline has been forced to ground most of its fleet due to the pandemic, although it is still running a few flights in and out of the UK, mostly out of Dublin and Stansted.​Passengers were initially delighted, but a Ryanair email sent out on Monday, seen by the Guardian, has heralded an about-turn.​Instead of the refund, passengers have been sent a link telling them how told how to use its vouchers to purchase Ryanair flights and other services over the next 12 months.​Passengers can still request a cash refund, it states, but the request will be placed “in the cash refund queue until the Covid-19 emergency has passed”.​“We highly recommend using the refund voucher as these are readily available and you can book flights on all Ryanair Group airlines in over 200 destinations,” says the airline.​Passengers who have tried to insist on the refund have told the Guardian that they have been left “waiting for hours to talk to a chatbot”, and it is impossible to get it processed.​Ryanair said: “For any cancelled flight, Ryanair is giving customers all of the options set out under EU regulations, including refunds.”​EU rules require the airlines to refund passengers on flights they cancel within seven days, but the airline industry across the board has ignored this over the last month, citing extraordinary circumstances.​EasyJet has since reintroduced the option of a cash refund online, while BA requires passengers to call the airline, which is near impossible at the moment.​The airlines can only offer credit vouchers with the consent of the passenger but this has not stopped the airlines and travel companies telling passengers, making this the only practical option.​​


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Earlier someone had posted comparing the owners and DVC to owning a house that is being managed.  This has led to some speculation on my part.  It seems to me that if I had a house rented to an agent, and that agent never contacted me about the agent getting told to let the renter leave/throw renter out or stop renting then that agent really messed up and owes me.
> 
> If "DISNEY" ordered the DVC to close, or just asked DVC to close then owners seem to be entitled to notice.  The amount of money at stake to DVC (owners) is more than enough to justify an attorney or 2 to look at a class action.  DVC can not serve two masters.  Yet I have not really seen any information about this other than the it was not the state of FL that forced the DVC closing, instead time shares were specifically allowed to continue.  Disney is a deep pocket.  there are lots of questions about the 'money' relationship between DVC and Disney.  I would bet there are a lot of interesting transcripts and emails here.



DVCM has emergency powers that allows them to close the resorts once a state of emergency was declared,  Reading the POS, and in emails with DVC, it was this power that allowed them to make the choice.

Im not suggesting it wasnt recommended by Disney, but our POS covers this in the sense, that DVCM acted within their authority as the management entity


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Sandisw said:


> DVCM has emergency powers that allows them to close the resorts once a state of emergency was declared,  Reading the POS, and in emails with DVC, it was this power that allowed them to make the choice.
> 
> Im not suggesting it wasnt recommended by Disney, but our POS covers this in the sense, that DVCM acted within their authority as the management entity


Do your emails state or suggest this was a DVCM decision and not being told?  I have seen the very vague and general communication that starts listing different 'consults' and then references all of them as being the reason.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Do your emails state or suggest this was a DVCM decision and not being told?  I have seen the very vague and general communication that starts listing different 'consults' and then references all of them as being the reason.



I didn’t ask that,  I simply wanted to verify the part of the POS allowed them to close.   My reading of the POS allows them the power to do what they did through that clause.  The property management agreement is with Disney and they indicated this played a role as well.

For me, it doesn’t really matter how it was decided in terms of consult between divisions, but rather that DVCM did indeed use that provision of the contract as some questioned whether move was legal,

Dont want to derail the thread, but it appears it was a legal move on behalf of the owners.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

merry_nbright said:


> It’s such a mess.


Yes, it is... a steaming, _hot _mess.


----------



## CanAdianDad

Sandisw said:


> If he secures it with a new owner, and then goes under, There is a good chance the owner will cut their losses and you will be out the reservation,
> 
> If you take the voucher, IMO, I’d opt for a reservation not booked on points, but through Disney directly.  The chances there are greater,


I just thought of something. What if David’s makes the cash bookings by only paying the deposit initially again trying to buy himself more time?


----------



## Grnl706

CanAdianDad said:


> I just thought of something. What if David’s makes the cash bookings by only paying the deposit initially again trying to buy himself more time?



That is a very good point. If you do a cash booking, is he having you pay the full amount at the time of booking?


----------



## yankeesfan123

CanAdianDad said:


> I just thought of something. What if David’s makes the cash bookings by only paying the deposit initially again trying to buy himself more time?


Wouldn’t be surprising. Just more of the pyramid scheme he’s trying to run to stay afloat.


----------



## purplenancy27

McCrae said:


> Or if they have taken out adequate insurance as advised renters would have no losses.


Insurance does not cover a pandemic!


----------



## Sandisw

CanAdianDad said:


> I just thought of something. What if David’s makes the cash bookings by only paying the deposit initially again trying to buy himself more time?



It would be the first question that I asked.  But, at least with Disney, you are no longer dealing with an owner who has ponts, etc.

I personally wouldn’t even accept a voucher...but if one decides to, I’d not choose a point reservsrion


----------



## mustinjourney

Sandisw said:


> I didn’t ask that,  I simply wanted to verify the part of the POS allowed them to close.   My reading of the POS allows them the power to do what they did through that clause.  The property management agreement is with Disney and they indicated this played a role as well.
> 
> For me, it doesn’t really matter how it was decided in terms of consult between divisions, but rather that DVCM did indeed use that provision of the contract as some questioned whether move was legal,
> 
> Dont want to derail the thread, but it appears it was a legal move on behalf of the owners.


Agreed.

While Disney may have deep pockets -- certainly deeper than David's -- they also most certainly have better lawyers.


----------



## mustinjourney

CanAdianDad said:


> I just thought of something. What if David’s makes the cash bookings by only paying the deposit initially again trying to buy himself more time?


that was literally the point I was making.


----------



## mustinjourney

Grnl706 said:


> That is a very good point. If you do a cash booking, is he having you pay the full amount at the time of booking?



the cash booking would be made as part of the voucher program -- so HE'S the one that is supposed to be paying the initial deposit and the balance due on check-in.

Which is great if he's still in business...but if he's not?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

CanAdianDad said:


> I just thought of something. What if David’s makes the cash bookings by only paying the deposit initially again trying to buy himself more time?





yankeesfan123 said:


> Wouldn’t be surprising. Just more of the pyramid scheme he’s trying to run to stay afloat.


So, the previous renter uses their voucher to make a "cash" reservation, David's pays one night's deposit when making the reservation, and when full payment comes due and he doesn't have the rest of the cash...


----------



## ziravan

I don’t think many of the owners here are blaming Disney or DVC. Even the issue of expiring points and what to do with them must be balanced against the impact of adding those points back into an otherwise full capacity system.


----------



## Grnl706

I just saw in another thread that David's is not taking any new bookings until August 1st per an email that went out? Has anyone seen that?


----------



## Frustrated renter

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, the previous renter uses their voucher to make a "cash" reservation, David's pays one night's deposit when making the reservation, and when full payment comes due and he doesn't have the rest of the cash...



It’s even worse if the new cash reservation costs MORE than the voucher (which is likely if it’s for the same number of days as the original rental).  

Then the renter would be paying David’s up front the additional cost, and he could pay Disney only the initial deposit until full payment is due, leaving the balance in jeopardy in the case of bankruptcy.


----------



## New Mouse

Frustrated renter said:


> It’s even worse if the new cash reservation costs MORE than the voucher (which is likely if it’s for the same number of days as the original rental).
> 
> Then the renter would be paying David’s up front the additional cost, and he could pay Disney only the initial deposit until full payment is due, leaving the balance in jeopardy in the case of bankruptcy.



Couldnt the guest just call Disney with the confirmation number and verify the reservation was paid in full? If not, Davids would be in breach of their own agreement.


----------



## Frustrated renter

New Mouse said:


> Couldnt the guest just call Disney with the confirmation number and verify the reservation was paid in full? If not, Davids would be in breach of their own agreement.



Is there anything in the agreement that specifies when David’s sends payment to Disney? Normally full payment isn’t due to Disney until a month before the check in date if I understand correctly.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

New Mouse said:


> Couldnt the guest just call Disney with the confirmation number and verify the reservation was paid in full? If not, Davids would be in breach of their own agreement.


Or, why even include David’s in final payment? Have the voucher cover as much as possible, then just call Disney and pay the balance directly.


----------



## Frustrated renter

Maistre Gracey said:


> Or, why even include David’s in final payment? Have the voucher cover as much as possible, then just call Disney and pay the balance directly.



I’ve never booked a cash room through a travel agent like David’s.  If you can send payment directly to Disney and have David’s only handle the “travel credit” amount as you suggest, then at least you aren’t risking any further funds.


----------



## Maistre Gracey

Frustrated renter said:


> I’ve never booked a cash room through a travel agent like David’s.  If you can send payment directly to Disney and have David’s only handle the “travel credit” amount as you suggest, then at least you aren’t risking any further funds.


Agreed. Although I have booked numerous cash rooms, I don’t know exactly how David has his voucher system set up. Could be a gotcha in there.


----------



## MichelleB

If you book a room through a Travel Agent, Disney will only accept payment processed through the Travel Agency.  You won't be able to call Disney and verify or make the final payment and they'll refer you back to the Agency.


----------



## McCrae

purplenancy27 said:


> Insurance does not cover a pandemic!



You can get insurance to cover this. Earlier in this thread there are examples of this insurance being discussed by posters who had it.


----------



## DisneyBB

My travel insurance covers pandemics, but if I re book for next year it says it won’t be covered for covid-19.


----------



## BWV Dreamin

mustinjourney said:


> the cash booking would be made as part of the voucher program -- so HE'S the one that is supposed to be paying the initial deposit and the balance due on check-in.
> 
> Which is great if he's still in business...but if he's not?


Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.....


----------



## cm8

WanderlustinFP said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a reservation with David's DVC in May and I contacted them earlier this month to see if they can get in touch with the owner to reschedule my trip to a later date. I'm a nurse right in the epicenter of COVID 19, therefore I knew the situation was looking bleak and Disney would not be up and running in May.  They sent me a canned email response just like their replies on Facebook. I know they are inundated with cancelled reservations from March and April, so the chances of them of working on my May reservation is slim to none, but I gave them a head ups to try to work things out with the owner this way they don't lose any points.
> 
> *Should I initiate a CC charge back the day I'm supposed to check-in?  I used my Chase Sapphire* back in October and their site does not mention anything about a charge back time frame. I also prepaid my dining plan with Disney gift cards. How will I get that money back?


Hello! You are actually in a great position! You may not need to initiate a charge back on that day. Chase Sapphire has Trip Interruption insurance up to $10,000 depending on your level. Please read the terms you agreed to as they will govern what is covered. As far as the Dining plan, maybe you can locate the renter and have them refund the amount? If not, maybe you can tack it onto your claim?
Good luck either way.


----------



## cm8

BWV Dreamin said:


> Sandy, you can rent on your own just fine. Posting for less than what David charges will still be more than he paid you. I like having a conversation with my renter even before the contract is signed. I want them to feel comfortable with me and explain/answer any questions they may have. Makes the whole process so much better..They always have my number to reach me any time. You can do it!!


 I agree! I always provide my renter with the information needed to search me up on the OCC site as well. Trust from both sides are required and must be maintained at all times. It’s not hard to do the right thing. 

My renters know how to reach me. I give them my cell, and my home number. I’m probably a nuisance to them at some point ()because I do monthly updates to see how they are and to see if I can be of further assistance.(most are first timers so I help them link reservations and remind them of FP days and ADR. I also forward any email received from DVC if it will affect their stay. I do this because it’s hard handing over your hard earned money to a stranger in hopes that they won’t take your money and run. Faith, Trust and Pixie Dust is not just a saying! 

I hope your give it a chance. It seems to all go smoothly! Just make sure your have a good contract and everything is outlined and adhered to.  Hope to see you posting soon!!


----------



## cmrdgrs

cmrdgrs said:


> This is a question that's probably rhetorical in nature, but some type of law applies to brokers.  Their businesses for some reason aren't an escrow company (which I don't understand).  I guess I'm just wondering because some body of law governs what the brokers can and cannot do, no?  Exactly what is a broker?  A travel agent?  A realtor?  What type of business are they?


I guess no one knows the answer to this?  What type of business is a DVC Broker?  Travel agent?


----------



## cmrdgrs

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I agree, the whole thing is very messy, I am still to receive the 30% due two days ago, which if they are true to their word (!) I should get if I re-rent those points, but I also had rented out my 2021 points in February with him, for December/January rentals and I am just keeping my fingers crossed that a) the parks and resorts have all reopened and b) that he is still in business then!     But your friend should surely get the 30% owed for the reservation when the resorts were still open. What excuse is he using to withhold what is due?


If/when you get your last 30% please let us know


----------



## DebbieB

McCrae said:


> You can get insurance to cover this. Earlier in this thread there are examples of this insurance being discussed by posters who had it.


 
It was covered under some cancel for any reason policies.  From what I’ve heard, they are now excluding. Be sure to read terms before buying.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DebbieB said:


> It was covered under some cancel for any reason policies.  From what I’ve heard, they are now excluding. Be sure to read terms before buying.


Most renters won't pick up the insurance.  In the world of pandemics I wonder if renters will no longer be willing to accept "non-refundable"


----------



## Noodlez

DebbieB said:


> It was covered under some cancel for any reason policies.  From what I’ve heard, they are now excluding. Be sure to read terms before buying.



Thankfully ours is only stopping Covid cover for new policies. As long as we keep renewing we’re fine!


----------



## Maddiesmum03

cmrdgrs said:


> Most renters won't pick up the insurance.  In the world of pandemics I wonder if renters will no longer be willing to accept "non-refundable"


Maybe the price of such insurance should be built into the price paid for the reservation?  I think we are all in agreement that the Broker should have had some sort of insurance to cover situations such as this, especially when you consider the cut they take.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Noodlez said:


> Thankfully ours is only stopping Covid cover for new policies. As long as we keep renewing we’re fine!


Can I ask, was this through an insurance company?  Or was this through the Broker?  I know one Broker offered a cancel for any reason option on their rentals that charged more PP to the renter.


----------



## meryll83

meryll83 said:


> My bank told me to tell them I did not accept the credit and that I was taking it further through them.
> 
> I left it slightly more open than a flat out decline and replied...
> 
> “As you advised me in your previous email on XXXX that the reservation I have paid for no longer exists, the options below aren’t both valid and therefore unfair.
> 
> As previously advised in my email from XXXX, given you have not provided a refund as requested, I am taking this further through my credit provider.“


Had an email response from David’s today, for anyone following along...

“Thank you for the email.

To ensure that all guests are treated fair and equally all guests impacted by the closure of Disney Vacation Club Resorts are being issued a Travel Credit. As previously advised, David’s Vacation Club has made the decision to offer a full credit to our guests, on terms and conditions which we believe are fair in the circumstances. We intend to make this offer consistently to all of our guests and accordingly are not able to make an exception in this case.

If you have any questions please let us know and we will do our best to assist.”

Just going to wait it out to see what my bank say now...


----------



## cmrdgrs

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Maybe the price of such insurance should be built into the price paid for the reservation?  I think we are all in agreement that the Broker should have had some sort of insurance to cover situations such as this, especially when you consider the cut they take.


I'm definitely in agreement, but the way they structure their Agreements/Contracts as "non-refundable" why would anyone think a broker had this type of coverage?  I understand why people use a broker in theory and I have considered it myself, but current pandemic aside, renting your points is so easy to do yourself, and I usually get over broker prices, so why would I give up that money to have and pay my MFs with or spend in other ways?  Why hand it to a broker?  No reply necessary.  I realize I'm veering off topic.  Maybe I should open a separate thread on this topic.

ETA: It seems like several mods are following this thread too.  If I wanted to open a thread on the above, its not obvious to me where it should be placed.  A little help from someone?


----------



## banzai75

meryll83 said:


> Had an email response from David’s today, for anyone following along...
> 
> “Thank you for the email.
> 
> To ensure that all guests are treated fair and equally all guests impacted by the closure of Disney Vacation Club Resorts are being issued a Travel Credit. As previously advised, David’s Vacation Club has made the decision to offer a full credit to our guests, on terms and conditions which we believe are fair in the circumstances. We intend to make this offer consistently to all of our guests and accordingly are not able to make an exception in this case.
> 
> If you have any questions please let us know and we will do our best to assist.”
> 
> Just going to wait it out to see what my bank say now...



had similar email this am with this added in

As it relates to point 14 in our terms and conditions, our intention is to provide flexibility in the Terms and Conditions if adjustments or amendments need to be made. The intention is not for malice but to continue to provide the service to guests. For example, it will allow us to assess the direction provided by health experts as well as government officials when considering extending the life of the Travel Credit. We had previously indicated the Travel Credit would be viable for 15 months we have since increased the longevity of the Travel Credit to 24 months.


----------



## cmrdgrs

I was thinking about this the other day -- someone stated that David had indicated that the contract was "frustrated" if David considers the contract frustrated, doesn't that mean that the contract is null and void for both parties?


----------



## Noodlez

cmrdgrs said:


> Can I ask, was this through an insurance company?  Or was this through the Broker?  I know one Broker offered a cancel for any reason option on their rentals that charged more PP to the renter.



This is just our normal annual travel insurance, but we're in the UK.  It's not a cancel for any reason policy, however pandemics are covered.


----------



## disneypharm

banzai75 said:


> had similar email this am with this added in
> 
> As it relates to point 14 in our terms and conditions, our intention is to provide flexibility in the Terms and Conditions if adjustments or amendments need to be made. The intention is not for malice but to continue to provide the service to guests. For example, it will allow us to assess the direction provided by health experts as well as government officials when considering extending the life of the Travel Credit. We had previously indicated the Travel Credit would be viable for 15 months we have since increased the longevity of the Travel Credit to 24 months.


If they want to help the renter, they should add to their #7 (see below) that they are willing to provide the same benefit to the renter as other Disney guests with cash reservations (eg, in case of another closure by Disney, return the money that Disney has to the renter and not pocket it!!).  

#7 "Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings."


----------



## disneypharm

Noodlez said:


> This is just our normal annual travel insurance, but we're in the UK.  It's not a cancel for any reason policy, however pandemics are covered.


My trip insurance (from US) does not mention any pandemic exclusions, so not sure how they can all of a sudden say it is not included.  However, it clearly states that quarantines are included!!  Not sure what that means!!


----------



## Bing Showei

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed. And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it.


If David's are saying owners have to return the money because Disney acted on behalf owners and canceled the reservation, thereby owners failed to deliver on their end of the agreement, then renters are due a refund because owners failed to "honor" their agreement responsibilities.

Every renter should leverage this policy decision to argue for a chargeback with their credit card company.


banzai75 said:


> As we have a contractual obligation to pay your DVC booking owner for the use of their points, we therefore have a no-refunds policy, as once the funds have been paid to the DVC booking owner, they are no longer in our control to be able to provide a refund.


If David’s are telling renters “no refund” because the owners didn’t cancel but that Disney made the reservation unavailable, then owners have fulfilled their obligations.

Every owner should keep their 70% regardless of their point status.

David's seem determined to have it both ways.


banzai75 said:


> The intention is not for malice but to continue to provide the service to guests. For example, it will allow us to assess the direction provided by health experts as well as government officials when considering extending the life of the Travel Credit.


How is anyone supposed to believe this? Again and again David’s has proven they are only looking out for their own survival. If there was ever a genuine concern for the renters and owners they have profited off of for the last 15 years, they would not repeatedly shift risk onto those same owners and renters with every policy making decision


----------



## Amymouse13

I got my voucher email today, did not respond.  They have been notified about my chargeback from CC a few days ago.  Took Citi nearly a month to contact them and they have until June 14 to respond.  Boa biz cc sent forms weeks ago.  Has anyone actually accepted the voucher??


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> I was thinking about this the other day -- someone stated that David had indicated that the contract was "frustrated" if David considers the contract frustrated, doesn't that mean that the contract is null and void for both parties?


David's opinion of the contract - that it is frustrated, impossible to execute, void, null etc - is valuable only to David. As an executed agreement between multiple parties, the contract can only be invalidated, or amended, by consent from all parties, or by a court of law or arbitrator. It is very possible an Ontario court would find the contract to be frustrated, and declare it void albeit not ab initio, but from the time it became frustrated - which means the owner would not receive the 30% remainder from David.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> David's opinion of the contract - that it is frustrated, impossible to execute, void, null etc - is valuable only to David. As an executed agreement between multiple parties, the contract can only be invalidated, or amended, by consent from all parties, or by a court of law or arbitrator. It is very possible an Ontario court would find the contract to be frustrated, and declare it void albeit not ab initio, but from the time it became frustrated - which means the owner would not receive the 30% remainder from David.


If David is taking actions based on the contract being frustrated, why can't an owner take action based on the contract being frustrated?

If David has stated that the contract is frustrated, and assuming that it is, the "value" I see to owners is the potential for those owners that are coming up on banking deadlines to have the ability to cancel the reservations they are holding and bank those points if that is possible for them.


----------



## Amymouse13

Amymouse13 said:


> I got my voucher email today, did not respond.  They have been notified about my chargeback from CC a few days ago.  Took Citi nearly a month to contact them and they have until June 14 to respond.  Boa biz cc sent forms weeks ago.  Has anyone actually accepted the voucher??



Just kidding, they retracted my voucher until my cc dispute is settled.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Amymouse13 said:


> Just kidding, they retracted my voucher until my cc dispute is settled.


So David replied to you letting you know that your credit card dispute is being responded to by them, and have notified you that until the dispute is settled your voucher has been retracted?


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> If David is taking actions based on the contract being frustrated, why can't an owner take action based on the contract being frustrated?
> 
> If David has stated that the contract is frustrated, and assuming that it is, the "value" I see to owners is the potential for those owners that are coming up on banking deadlines to have the ability to cancel the reservations they are holding and bank those points if that is possible for them.


I would think frustration only occurs when the contracted reservation is canceled by Disney. An owner proactively canceling the reservation in anticipation of a Disney closure would be in breach and, according to the contract terms, liable not just for the 70% downpayment but also all other costs incurred and claimed by the renter (park tickets, dining reservation, airfare, lost wages - the sky is the limit). There is no good reason why any owner would expose themselves to uncapped liability, just to preserve 30% of the points' value (assuming the 70% downpayment is not refunded to David).


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> _*I would think frustration only occurs when the contracted reservation is canceled by Disney*_. An owner proactively canceling the reservation in anticipation of a Disney closure would be in breach and, according to the contract terms, liable not just for the 70% downpayment but also all other costs incurred and claimed by the renter (park tickets, dining reservation, airfare, lost wages - the sky is the limit). There is no good reason why any owner would expose themselves to uncapped liability, just to preserve 30% of the points' value (assuming the 70% downpayment is not refunded to David).


I can see your point.  Hadn't thought of it that way.  Gosh this really is a mess.  I feel bad for renters and owners caught up in this circumstance.

I guess the real sticking point is owners giving back the 70% and renters not getting back any funds for the vacation they paid for.  The voucher is a complete mess for renters.  IMO, I would not accept that voucher no way.  I hope renters are successful with their chargebacks.


----------



## Amymouse13

cmrdgrs said:


> So David replied to you letting you know that your credit card dispute is being responded to by them, and have notified you that until the dispute is settled your voucher has been retracted?



Pretty much... Lol.


----------



## minthorne

I can't wait for the Netflix documentary series on David's Vacation Club in 2023.


----------



## disneypharm

Just checked my days on David's calculator that shows I have to pay $300 more for the same week next year.  So, if there is closure next year, I could be paying $300 more in addition to what I have paid and lose it all because of the new contract stating that no refunds.    Wow!!!


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> I can see your point.  Hadn't thought of it that way.  Gosh this really is a mess.  I feel bad for renters and owners caught up in this circumstance.
> 
> I guess the real sticking point is owners giving back the 70% and renters not getting back any funds for the vacation they paid for.  The voucher is a complete mess for renters.  IMO, I would not accept that voucher no way.  I hope renters are successful with their chargebacks.


Some recent info that I would rather not disclose suggests that very few owners with canceled reservations are returning the 70%. On the other hand, if renters are successful with their chargebacks, every day that Disney continues to cancel reservations reduces David's chances to remain in business - so you essentially hope for David to go out of business. Can a mechanism be found by which everyone involved (owners, renters, David) shares in the loss?


----------



## banzai75

Is there anyway to find out if your reservation was cancelled by Disney or the owner?  If I called DVC would they know or would it just say cancelled.


----------



## karen4546

disneypharm said:


> Just checked my days on David's calculator that shows I have to pay $300 more for the same week next year.  So, if there is closure next year, I could be paying $300 more in addition to what I have paid and lose it all because of the new contract stating that no refunds.    Wow!!!



I figured they would have to raise price/pt. to make u[ for the vouchers they issued.  I mean someone has to make up the deficit.  In the future, David's could factor in the cost of cancel for any reason insurance (that has NO EXCLUSIONS) to cover their interests.   I mean CYOA- right?


----------



## cmrdgrs

karen4546 said:


> I figured they would have to raise price/pt. to make u[ for the vouchers they issued.  I mean someone has to make up the deficit.  In the future, David's could factor in the cost of cancel for any reason insurance (that has NO EXCLUSIONS) to cover their interests.   I mean CYOA- right?


May not be a raise in price -- but, the "season" of travel is probably different -- DVC did make some changes to the 2021 point calendars, maybe that resort was impacted by the changes.


----------



## cvjw

banzai75 said:


> Is there anyway to find out if your reservation was cancelled by Disney or the owner?  If I called DVC would they know or would it just say cancelled.



If you can still see your reservation in your my Disney experience account, it hasn’t been canceled. When it disappears from there, it has been cancelled.

DVC will only speak with owners.


----------



## cherylmc

minthorne said:


> I can't wait for the Netflix documentary series on David's Vacation Club in 2023.



I'm betting on a CNBC episode of "American Greed"


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

minthorne said:


> I can't wait for the Netflix documentary series on David's Vacation Club in 2023.





cherylmc said:


> I'm betting on a CNBC episode of "American Greed"



Could be, but I think I'm going to go with:

 "Davids' Vacation Club, hmmm, I've never heard of them; must just be some old defunct company!"


----------



## cmrdgrs

disneypharm said:


> Just checked my days on David's calculator that shows I have to pay $300 more for the same week next year.  So, if there is closure next year, I could be paying $300 more in addition to what I have paid and lose it all because of the new contract stating that no refunds.    Wow!!!


This is the reason the voucher is such a bad option.  I only get one rebook?  WTH?  It's the only way he can pay his "supply chain" because his new contract will state that owners get paid no matter what and renters take full risk, even when it's beyond their control.


----------



## Sandisw

disneypharm said:


> Just checked my days on David's calculator that shows I have to pay $300 more for the same week next year.  So, if there is closure next year, I could be paying $300 more in addition to what I have paid and lose it all because of the new contract stating that no refunds.    Wow!!!



One reason it could be more is because the DVC point charts had some changes in 2021 which raised the number of points needed for certain rooms,..while others went down,


----------



## McCrae

Dracula said:


> Some recent info that I would rather not disclose suggests that very few owners with canceled reservations are returning the 70%. On the other hand, if renters are successful with their chargebacks, every day that Disney continues to cancel reservations reduces David's chances to remain in business - so you essentially hope for David to go out of business. Can a mechanism be found by which everyone involved (owners, renters, David) shares in the loss?


I think its too late. David’s should have asked all renters if they are willing to be rebooked and ask all owners if they would help rebook their renters. I think a lot more people would have accepted this,


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Some recent info that I would rather not disclose suggests that very few owners with canceled reservations are returning the 70%. On the other hand, if renters are successful with their chargebacks, every day that Disney continues to cancel reservations reduces David's chances to remain in business - so you essentially hope for David to go out of business. Can a mechanism be found by which everyone involved (owners, renters, David) shares in the loss?



I'd guess in a lot of cases the money is already spent.  Just like David spent his profits.  His voucher just added fuel to the fire and enraged owners even more.  You can't ask for the money back and then not refund the renter too.  That really stoked ire, and I can't say I blame owners.  I'd be angry too.



McCrae said:


> I think its too late. David’s should have asked all renters if they are willing to be rebooked and ask all owners if they would help rebook their renters. I think a lot more people would have accepted this,


IMO, David needed to be willing to do what RedWeek did -- put owners and renters in touch with one another (if the owners were willing).  By trying to control all correspondence, he is just a bottleneck to finding a solution, and helping everyone salvage the situation.

So, either this is a software issue that can't be turned around, or an unwillingness, or both.  An unprecedented event calls for an unprecedented solution paired with some humbleness would be nice too.


----------



## disneypharm

Sandisw said:


> One reason it could be more is because the DVC point charts had some changes in 2021 which raised the number of points needed for certain rooms,..while others went down,


Yes, I understand, but my point was paying more and be in the same situation later with a new contract with no way to give a refund.    Why would I want to put myself in the same situation again.


----------



## disneypharm

cmrdgrs said:


> IMO, David needed to be willing to do what RedWeek did -- put owners and renters in touch with one another (if the owners were willing).  By trying to control all correspondence, he is just a bottleneck to finding a solution, and helping everyone salvage the situation.


Someone mentioned earlier that the reason he didn't do that is to prevent people to find out that they can make their own deals without a broker in the future.


----------



## cmrdgrs

disneypharm said:


> Yes, I understand, but my point was paying more and be in the same situation later with a new contract with no way to give a refund.    Why would I want to put myself in the same situation again.


Oh, I totally agree.  I posted the same information as Sandisw -- that the increase could be related to the chart changes.  Our point is that the increase isn't due to David raising his price.

If I were a renter, hard as it may be, I'd probably walk away if a Credit Card dispute didn't refund me, and then I would never rent again and be sure to tell everyone I know never to rent points.  EVER!


----------



## cmrdgrs

disneypharm said:


> Someone mentioned earlier that the reason he didn't do that is to prevent people to find out that they can make their own deals without a broker in the future.


That may be.  I think it's too damaging given the circumstances, but he's the multimillionaire, not me, so I'm sure he has his reasons for doing what he is doing and feels confident in his decisions.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

minthorne said:


> I can't wait for the Netflix documentary series on David's Vacation Club in 2023.


"DVC King" ?????


----------



## mustinjourney

Dracula said:


> I would think frustration only occurs when the contracted reservation is canceled by Disney. An owner proactively canceling the reservation in anticipation of a Disney closure would be in breach and, according to the contract terms, liable not just for the 70% downpayment but also all other costs incurred and claimed by the renter (*park tickets, dining reservation, airfare, lost wages - the sky is the limit*). There is no good reason why any owner would expose themselves to *uncapped liability*, just to preserve 30% of the points' value (assuming the 70% downpayment is not refunded to David).



why do you think they would be on the hook for all those extra things?


----------



## Krandor

Dracula said:


> Some recent info that I would rather not disclose suggests that very few owners with canceled reservations are returning the 70%. On the other hand, if renters are successful with their chargebacks, every day that Disney continues to cancel reservations reduces David's chances to remain in business - so you essentially hope for David to go out of business. Can a mechanism be found by which everyone involved (owners, renters, David) shares in the loss?



But David in none of this is volunteering to share in the loss. He's taking losses but only due to it being forced on him.  In his mind, the owner should return everything, he keeps his, and the renter gets a crappy voucher that he is hoping can't/doesn't get used so he keeps it all.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Krandor said:


> But David in none of this is volunteering to share in the loss. He's taking losses but only due to it being forced on him.  In his mind, the owner should return everything, he keeps his, and the renter gets a crappy voucher that he is hoping can't/doesn't get used so he keeps it all.


Perfect summary.  AND even if owners and renters could work together and work out a deal, David will not allow it.


----------



## Dracula

mustinjourney said:


> why do you think they would be on the hook for all those extra things?


Because my intermediary agreement with David says:
   7. The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs.
   8. The DVC Owner hereby agrees to indemnify Intermediary from and in respect of all losses, costs, damages and claims suffered or incurred by Intermediary as a result of the DVC Owner failing to fulfill any responsibility or comply with any obligation of DVC Owner hereunder.

David's obligations include:
   4.f. Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in.


----------



## banzai75

Amymouse13 said:


> I got my voucher email today, did not respond.  They have been notified about my chargeback from CC a few days ago.  Took Citi nearly a month to contact them and they have until June 14 to respond.  Boa biz cc sent forms weeks ago.  Has anyone actually accepted the voucher??



Chase was pretty quick in notifying them. Only a couple days.

their offer has since been rescinded


I wanted to follow up with you today as our system generated a Travel Credit email to you a few days ago regarding your stay in April. As you have issued a dispute today on the funds for your reservation, the reservation cannot be worked with until the dispute is resolved. As such, the Travel Credit offer for this reservation has been put on pause.

Should your dispute be decided in our favor, we will work to re-issue you the Travel Credit at that time.


----------



## Dracula

banzai75 said:


> Chase was pretty quick in notifying them. Only a couple days.
> 
> their offer has since been rescinded
> 
> 
> I wanted to follow up with you today as our system generated a Travel Credit email to you a few days ago regarding your stay in April. As you have issued a dispute today on the funds for your reservation, the reservation cannot be worked with until the dispute is resolved. As such, the Travel Credit offer for this reservation has been put on pause.
> 
> Should your dispute be decided in our favor, we will work to re-issue you the Travel Credit at that time.


This is good to know - so filing for a chargeback does not jeopardize the chance of getting a voucher. This makes the chargeback route a no brainer... RIP David


----------



## Disaseny

I just received my email from David's and had already filed my dispute with Chase yesterday. Wonder how long it will take to rescind the offer. I can't wait to see what reasons why they give that they cannot refund the money to me.


----------



## owensjro

disneypharm said:


> Not from what I have seen!  “Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are* not permitted*.”
> 
> I have emailed twice asking to contact the owner to reschedule and both times received a standard email to wait!!



I am an owner with an upcoming rental. I was contacted asking if I was willing to re-rent the points to support a voucher. I have asked multiple times if the renter would prefer to rebook and the answer each time has been that I would be asked to re-rent and they would be given a voucher. 

So it seems to me that the voucher is being pushed on both ends now above any other option.


----------



## disneypharm

owensjro said:


> I am an owner with an upcoming rental. I was contacted asking if I was willing to re-rent the points to support a voucher. I have asked multiple times if the renter would prefer to rebook and the answer each time has been that I would be asked to re-rent and they would be given a voucher.
> 
> So it seems to me that the voucher is being pushed on both ends now above any other option.


Sorry!  But what is that mean to "re-rent"?     Re-rent to a different person and not reschedule the same renter?  If yes, why?


----------



## starry_solo

disneypharm said:


> Sorry!  But what is that mean to "re-rent"?     Re-rent to a different person and not reschedule the same renter?  If yes, why?



David's is offering the original renter a voucher. David's wants the owner who rented the points and got the points back to rent to a new renter.
David's collects commission again?


----------



## disneypharm

Wait!  So, by accepting to re-rent to a different person, you will be returning your 70% to him,  he will keep the money and then provides a voucher to the existing renter.  Then you re-rent your points to a new renter, and in the mean time, he will get another commission from the new renter (in addition to the money you returned)?


----------



## disneypharm

starry_solo said:


> David's is offering the original renter a voucher. David's wants the owner who rented the points and got the points back to rent to a new renter.
> David's collects commission again?


Thanks,  we were typing at the same time.


----------



## owensjro

starry_solo said:


> David's is offering the original renter a voucher. David's wants the owner who rented the points and got the points back to rent to a new renter.
> David's collects commission again?



Exactly. Whereas I would rather help the renter directly and try to work with them to rebook their trip. I'm not even being offered that option now. The first rental I had in March we discussed rebooking but the renter didn't want to. Now it appears to be off the table entirely.


----------



## Marionnette

disneypharm said:


> Sorry!  But what is that mean to "re-rent"?     Re-rent to a different person and not reschedule the same renter?  If yes, why?


Yes. David’s wants owners who secured reservations for a renter who is now affected by the shutdown to make a reservation for a new renter using those same points.

The owner keeps the 70% they’ve been paid but has to wait until the new renter checks in before they get the remaining 30%. David’s collects a new rental fee from the 2nd renter. The original renter gets a voucher. Part of the money collected from renter #2 will offset the voucher. David’s collects two fees for two rentals (the original rental plus the new rental) off of the same set of points.


----------



## Krandor

Marionnette said:


> Yes. David’s wants owners who secured reservations for a renter who is now affected by the shutdown to make a reservation for a new renter using those same points.
> 
> The owner keeps the 70% they’ve been paid but has to wait until the new renter checks in before they get the remaining 30%. David’s collects a new rental fee from the 2nd renter. The original renter gets a voucher. Part of the money collected from renter #2 will offset the voucher. David’s collects two fees for two rentals (the original rental plus the new rental) off of the same set of points.



that is a house of cards ready to collapse And kicking the can down the road.

Im shocked there are new people wanting to rent seeing this voucher crap and the new “if resorts are closer we’ll issue a voucher on whatever terms we decide when we get around to it” terms.


----------



## DisneyBB

i Would want to see proof from David that contact with my renter has been made.  I would want to see that an offer to reschedule or refund has been made.


----------



## DisneyBB

owensjro said:


> Exactly. Whereas I would rather help the renter directly and try to work with them to rebook their trip. I'm not even being offered that option now. The first rental I had in March we discussed rebooking but the renter didn't want to. Now it appears to be off the table entirely.


Did you receive all the money for your March rental ? Or did you have to refund?


----------



## Krandor

DisneyBB said:


> i Would want to see proof from David that contact with my renter has been made.  I would want to see that an offer to reschedule or refund has been made.



they are only doing vouchers now. Nothing else seems to be on the table.


----------



## Dracula

disneypharm said:


> Sorry!  But what is that mean to "re-rent"?     Re-rent to a different person and not reschedule the same renter?  If yes, why?


Because the chances of matching a large pool of renters with a large pool of owners are much better than accommodating one renter at a time with the same set of points.


----------



## Cyberc1978

If the number of posts in this thread is any indication (2000+) a lot of people either have an opinion or is impacted by this one way or another.

When the corona dust settles I wonder if Davids is still around if he is how many owners and renters will be using him. His damage control is sort of non existent except for deleting negative comments on this Facebook page.


----------



## Dracula

Marionnette said:


> Yes. David’s wants owners who secured reservations for a renter who is now affected by the shutdown to make a reservation for a new renter using those same points.
> 
> The owner keeps the 70% they’ve been paid but has to wait until the new renter checks in before they get the remaining 30%. David’s collects a new rental fee from the 2nd renter. The original renter gets a voucher. Part of the money collected from renter #2 will offset the voucher. David’s collects two fees for two rentals (the original rental plus the new rental) off of the same set of points.


I was totally with you until you stated that David collects two fees from the same set of points. No question, David collects the fee on the second rental (the re-rented points). But he refunds his first fee to the first renter as a voucher, and this voucher must be used on a different set of points (the first set of points, if unexpired, we assume has been re-rented). And when the first renter uses the voucher to make a reservation, then David earns another fee, on another set of points (or cruise, cash booking etc.). I don't see anything fishy here, other than the voucher terms which are very one-sided.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Krandor said:


> they are only doing vouchers now. Nothing else seems to be on the table.



I have looked into the crystal ball and I foresee that David’s will have problems fulfilling voucher rental request in the future to come.


----------



## Cyberc1978

I’m keen to hear about how the CC chargebacks will turn out, in the weeks/months to come

I assume that it’s not lawyers processing the claims and if Davids can provide contracts etc maybe he have a good case. OTOH maybe he don’t.


----------



## Disneyepcot

McCrae said:


> I think its too late. David’s should have asked all renters if they are willing to be rebooked and ask all owners if they would help rebook their renters. I think a lot more people would have accepted this,


This is how David's attempted to work it out in March (mine was one of the first reservations cancelled). Unfortunately my owner only offered for me to rebook through May 31 since they had used June 2019 UY points.  *If the owner had known absolutely sure what DVC would allow, if anything, for their expired points then they may have been willing to work something out with me.* *There was just too many unknowns.*
I have not received an offer for the voucher because early on, before the voucher deal, I refused to rebook with my owner and notified David's that my credit card company would deal with them through a charge back.    It has been about 30 days now but I was told it could take up to 60 to finalize the charge back.  At this time the money is back in my account but the decision is not final yet.


----------



## Miffy

Krandor said:


> that is a house of cards ready to collapse And kicking the can down the road.
> 
> Im shocked there are new people wanting to rent seeing this voucher crap and the new “if resorts are closer we’ll issue a voucher on whatever terms we decide when we get around to it” terms.


I was shocked at first too, but I'm even more shocked that people are still hoping to go on a cruise sometime before 2057.


----------



## Jwdisney914

Sorry if already answered - has David’s specified how long the voucher is valid for? Thanks!


----------



## VeroGuy

starry_solo said:


> David's is offering the original renter a voucher. David's wants the owner who rented the points and got the points back to rent to a new renter.
> David's collects commission again?


Bingo!!


----------



## Krandor

Jwdisney914 said:


> Sorry if already answered - has David’s specified how long the voucher is valid for? Thanks!



24 months or until bankrupcy whichever comes first


----------



## VeroGuy

Krandor said:


> 24 months or until bankrupcy whichever comes first


Sad, but becoming more true by the day IMO.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Krandor said:


> 24 months or until bankrupcy whichever comes first


So true.

Remember the voucher is only worth anything if Davids can find a new owner. With his current behavior that might become increasingly difficult.


----------



## Krandor

VeroGuy said:


> Sad, but becoming more true by the day IMO.



Yep.  I think they are going to lose a lot of these chargebacks and not have enough new renters/owners to keep things from collapsing.


----------



## Krandor

Cyberc1978 said:


> So true.
> 
> Remember the voucher is only worth anything if Davids can find a new owner. With his current behavior that might become increasingly difficult.



Voucher can also be used on cash reservations and given his clause on points reservations needing a deposit "while voucher code is verified" (huh - its' his code what is there to verify) I think I'd use it on a cash reservation if I had one (though I'd be doing a chargeback even  before that)


----------



## VeroGuy

Krandor said:


> Yep.  I think they are going to lose a lot of these chargebacks and not have enough new renters/owners to keep things from collapsing.


I have rented through David’s every year for the past 6 years and have had nothing but pleasant experiences, so I truly do mean what I say. I am saddened to see a company I valued as a consumer go down like this. I am pulling for him. But I am not sure the voucher system will work out.


----------



## Krandor

VeroGuy said:


> I have rented through David’s every year for the past 6 years and have had nothing but pleasant experiences, so I truly do mean what I say. I am saddened to see a company I valued as a consumer go down like this. I am pulling for him. But I am not sure the voucher system will work out.



I've never used him but I cannot support the actions he has been taking through this thing at all.  This may have not been the norm for him and it doesn't sound like it was.   However, his current actions are nothing but disguisting IMO.  For a company that it sounds like was a good company it certainly is a bad way to go out but at this point he's digging his own grave.


----------



## suemom2kay

Dracula said:


> Class action lawsuits mostly benefit the attorneys. Call it "just enrichment". Owners may get an additional $1 per point, if lucky. Not worth the aggravation, IMHO. Where would the cash even come from? It has already been established that David runs an asset-light business. I would rather have David remain in business and continue to provide a safe, competitive marketplace for owners and renters.


Clearly it is far from safe.


----------



## momincolorado

banzai75 said:


> Chase was pretty quick in notifying them. Only a couple days.
> 
> their offer has since been rescinded
> 
> 
> I wanted to follow up with you today as our system generated a Travel Credit email to you a few days ago regarding your stay in April. As you have issued a dispute today on the funds for your reservation, the reservation cannot be worked with until the dispute is resolved. As such, the Travel Credit offer for this reservation has been put on pause.
> 
> Should your dispute be decided in our favor, we will work to re-issue you the Travel Credit at that time.



Even better! Nothing to lose then if going the chargeback route first.


----------



## LAX

VeroGuy said:


> I have rented through David’s every year for the past 6 years and have had nothing but pleasant experiences, so I truly do mean what I say. *I am saddened to see a company I valued as a consumer go down like this.* I am pulling for him. But I am not sure the voucher system will work out.



You shouldn't for what have been reportedly done to both the owners and renters. Don't get me wrong, I have had positive experiences with the company in the past. However, at times like this, it definitely should have done more to help out its customers (both owners and renters are customers). So far, it has been all about saving the company's behind. If there is any truth to the extravagant lifestyle he has had over the last couple of years, he definitely could/should have spent some of that funds to put in some "safety measures" so that it can better cope with unforeseen circumstances like this, IMHO.

LAX


----------



## banzai75

If he believes his no refund policy would hold up against chargebacks he wouldn't have issued the voucher system.  He is hoping renters will accept the voucher in fear of losing their entire reservation.  A promise of something in the future is better than nothing.  Renters might not be aware of chargebacks and these forums. 

Surprised he is doing this to owners though.  If he alienates them, he won't have any supply for future reservations.

I myself was unaware of these forums as a first time renter and had to do a little digging before I ended up here to see peoples opinions on David and what options I might have. 

I'm glad I found this forum and appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions!


----------



## suemom2kay

Dracula said:


> FWIW, major European airline Ryanair is no longer giving passengers on cancelled flights refunds, they need to accept credit vouchers until "the COVID-19 emergency has passed". Air Canada is doing the same. Can we really expect anything more from David?


Yes we should expect a lot more from David's.  The airlines have a product and own billions of dollars worth of aircraft, have bills to pay to the airports, an enormous payroll, etc.  On the other hand, David's doesn't own the product.  He has to have a small amount of overhead for office space, employees, no product to buy or house.

If an owner is willing to refund the renter (I would be even if my points are distressed) that money should go to the renter.  If a renter wants to split the loss 50/50 with the owner, they should be allowed to do that.  The 30% should have been retained in escrow for checkin... so even if owner is not willing to refund (I have no idea the legalities of this, I'm a nurse not a lawyer) he still has the 30%.  He can give that to the renter and tell the owner, they couldn't checkin so owner doesn't get the 30%.  

With all David's scrambling we can only assume that the 30% was not held in escrow and he blew it on yachts and vacations.  He sounds like a horrible person.


----------



## cmrdgrs

starry_solo said:


> David's is offering the original renter a voucher. David's wants the owner who rented the points and got the points back to rent to a new renter.
> *David's collects commission again?*


We have a winner!  David collects another commission and the person actually doing the work to secure the new reservation gets zero


----------



## RanDIZ

I’m not up to speed with the whole David’s situation, but just started reading some posts. I have a Dec 2020 vacation booked. I used a visa bank card. Just curious what I’ll be dealing with if David’s is not around.


----------



## Disaseny

Krandor said:


> Voucher can also be used on cash reservations and given his clause on points reservations needing a deposit "while voucher code is verified" (huh - its' his code what is there to verify) I think I'd use it on a cash reservation if I had one (though I'd be doing a chargeback even  before that)
> [/QUOT
> 
> But how does his cash reservation work? If I book a cash reservation directly through Disney i put $200 down for a package or one night deposit and if I need to cancel, at day day 31 , I can and I am not out any money. If Disney would close again due to another flare up in the fall, Disney would give me everything back that I paid.  Would I have to pay the value of the trip over my voucher amount right away, therefore giving him more money to pay with? If I would use a voucher, do the same rules apply? Guessing not because 1) he says they have no CASH value, 2) it if closed we are SOL.


----------



## EYL

Cyberc1978 said:


> When the corona dust settles I wonder if Davids is still around if he is how many owners and renters will be using him. His damage control is sort of non existent except for deleting negative comments on this Facebook page.



I go on his FB group page sometimes, see all the praises, and wonder if those poor people know the pros and cons of the travel voucher. I saw one negative comment posted around midnight, and it was gone the next morning.  At least allow a meaningful conversation and answer questions so that the public can see it.  I rented out my points through Davids for a late-June reservation and, if cancelled, am contemplating just letting the renter know the pros and cons.  I am fortunate to be in a position to return all the money back to Davids, but feel really bad that the renters won't be able to ask for a refund.  Disney isn't cheap and we could be talking about someone's long-term savings...


----------



## Dracula

I don’t remember seeing this mentioned before, but in Canada it is legal for the airlines to offer credit vouchers instead of cash refunds for canceled flights:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...-offer-customers-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refunds/


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> I don’t remember seeing this mentioned before, but in Canada it is legal for the airlines to offer credit vouchers instead of cash refunds for canceled flights:
> 
> https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...-offer-customers-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refunds/


Not sure I understand what that has to do with the price of milk.


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> Not sure I understand what that has to do with the price of milk.


Airlines, travel agents, hotels - same thing. The point is, if the Canadian Department of Transportation gave guidance that it is OK to issue travel vouchers for canceled travel-related activities, it is possible that David would use this as he argues the credit card disputes. I am really curious how all these chargebacks would turn out, hopefully we’ll hear from his renters.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Airlines, travel agents, hotels - same thing. The point is, if the Canadian Department of Transportation gave guidance that it is OK to issue travel vouchers for canceled travel-related activities, it is possible that David would use this as he argues the credit card disputes. I am really curious how all these chargebacks would turn out, hopefully we’ll hear from his renters.


I'm curious how the chargebacks will go too. 

I just don't think comparing David to an airline = same thing.


----------



## mrsmnx

Any Canadians currently attempting a chargeback? We booked 11 months ago so not sure it is even an option due to how long ago it was booked.


----------



## poofyo101

Could just be buying himself some time right now against credit card chargebacks.


----------



## cmrdgrs

mrsmnx said:


> Any Canadians currently attempting a chargeback? We booked 11 months ago so not sure it is even an option due to how long ago it was booked.


All you can do is try.


----------



## Disaseny

Can't hurt to try. I booked mine beginning of October for next week, and Chase initiated the chargeback when I called.


----------



## lovethesun12

Dracula said:


> I don’t remember seeing this mentioned before, but in Canada it is legal for the airlines to offer credit vouchers instead of cash refunds for canceled flights:
> 
> https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...-offer-customers-vouchers-in-lieu-of-refunds/


Yes I've had a bunch of cancellations and I received vouchers/credit, not cash, for all of them (oddly I have FOUR sets of travel insurance; one was purchased extra coverage, and none of them cover this scenario). My reservation is not here yet but my flights are cancelled and I received a credit. My DVC Rental will likely be cancelled (not David's btw) and the people I heard from received a credit so I assume I will as well. My disney tickets are non-refundable but again, I can apply the cost to a new set of tickets.

Truthfully I would really like to see all those companies stay in business. I am a returning customer for all of them because of the great service I've received. If taking a credit will help them stay afloat I'm more than happy with it.

I do now understand that some may need a refund (or their 30%) though as everything unfolds and I really hope they receive it. I'm not entirely convinced I'll get to use any of the credits (except maybe the tickets  ) but personally I feel so thankful for everything I have lately I'm just going with the flow on this now - it is what it is.


----------



## CraigInPA

Marionnette said:


> Yes. David’s wants owners who secured reservations for a renter who is now affected by the shutdown to make a reservation for a new renter using those same points.
> 
> The owner keeps the 70% they’ve been paid but has to wait until the new renter checks in before they get the remaining 30%. David’s collects a new rental fee from the 2nd renter. The original renter gets a voucher. Part of the money collected from renter #2 will offset the voucher. David’s collects two fees for two rentals (the original rental plus the new rental) off of the same set of points.



Do they expect you to be paid last year's price ($14.50) or this year's price ($15.50)? 

I'm guessing last year's price, which gives them an extra dollar of profit when someone buys a new reservation or redeems a voucher.

If this year's price, will they pay 70 cents on every point to make the 70% "paid to the owner at booking" correct?


----------



## Cyberc1978

Dracula said:


> Airlines, travel agents, hotels - same thing. The point is, if the Canadian Department of Transportation gave guidance that it is OK to issue travel vouchers for canceled travel-related activities, it is possible that David would use this as he argues the credit card disputes. I am really curious how all these chargebacks would turn out, hopefully we’ll hear from his renters.



I know that David’s is a Canadian company and he must follow Canadian rules and law. However I dont know which rules or laws applies here? Seems that if you take David’s to court the venue is in Canada.

Doing a charge back is not the same and US companies or companies in other countries have to follow the rules in those countries.

Here in the EU the KLM airline is not following EU law for cancelled flights. Normally they should do a refund but the Dutch government said a voucher was okay.

Had it been me I would file for a charge back both in Canada and anywhere else if I had ordered something which was not delivered.


----------



## McCrae

lovethesun12 said:


> Yes I've had a bunch of cancellations and I received vouchers/credit, not cash, for all of them (oddly I have FOUR sets of travel insurance; one was purchased extra coverage, and none of them cover this scenario). My reservation is not here yet but my flights are cancelled and I received a credit. My DVC Rental will likely be cancelled (not David's btw) and the people I heard from received a credit so I assume I will as well. My disney tickets are non-refundable but again, I can apply the cost to a new set of tickets.
> 
> Truthfully I would really like to see all those companies stay in business. I am a returning customer for all of them because of the great service I've received. If taking a credit will help them stay afloat I'm more than happy with it.
> 
> I do now understand that some may need a refund (or their 30%) though as everything unfolds and I really hope they receive it. I'm not entirely convinced I'll get to use any of the credits (except maybe the tickets  ) but personally I feel so thankful for everything I have lately I'm just going with the flow on this now - it is what it is.


I agree with your overall sentiment. In David's case I think a lot of owners are not happy with the way David's has handled this and he has lost a lot of goodwill. The impression he has created is that his priority is to look after himself. As an owner my priority is to try and help the renter.  David's blocking attempts to help the renters and as such I am not inclined to do anything to help him.


----------



## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> I agree with your overall sentiment. In David's case I think a lot of owners are not happy with the way David's has handled this and he has lost a lot of goodwill. The impression he has created is that his priority is to look after himself. As an owner my priority is to try and help the renter.  David's blocking attempts to help the renters and as such I am not inclined to do anything to help him.



it def looks that way.  It would almost be better if the renter cancels with David then owner gets the 30%.  Then the owner could refund the renter directly.   This is for future bookings outside of the shutdown and if points are not distressed.   But that would take trust in the owner on the renters side. i would be hesitant in committing that to an email but wonder if a phone conversation between the owner and renter would work?


----------



## Maddiesmum03

CraigInPA said:


> Do they expect you to be paid last year's price ($14.50) or this year's price ($15.50)?
> 
> I'm guessing last year's price, which gives them an extra dollar of profit when someone buys a new reservation or redeems a voucher.
> 
> If this year's price, will they pay 70 cents on every point to make the 70% "paid to the owner at booking" correct?


I was asked to make a reservation for a few points more than the original. I was told I would be paid $15.50 for each new point (nothing for the others because I have already been paid 100% for those) so yes, Davids will make $1 extra per old point plus his usual commission.  I said no to this reservation, as I have no extra points to play with and I guess I can but ask for my cut of the extra $ per point. I hadn't even thought of that. Originally, I was hoping the new reservation would be for the same renters as before who of course have already paid for those points. I really don't like that their "voucher" is not worth the same value of points (regardless of points charts changing) because of his price hike.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> it def looks that way.  It would almost be better if the renter cancels with David then owner gets the 30%.  Then the owner could refund the renter directly.   This is for future bookings outside of the shutdown and if points are not distressed.   But that would take trust in the owner on the renters side. i would be hesitant in committing that to an email but wonder if a phone conversation between the owner and renter would work?



I think compromise is needed. I would be willing to give up the 30% owed to me  to rebook for the renter. The renter needs to be willing to be re-booked. I don't want a family to lose out on a trip to Disney. If renters can't rebook or are unwilling I would suggest credit card charge back is the best option for them.


----------



## suemom2kay

cmrdgrs said:


> May not be a raise in price -- but, the "season" of travel is probably different -- DVC did make some changes to the 2021 point calendars, maybe that resort was impacted by the changes.


David’s raised their price per point. So even if points required are equal, will still cost renter more.


----------



## Dracula

Cyberc1978 said:


> I know that David’s is a Canadian company and he must follow Canadian rules and law. However I dont know which rules or laws applies here? Seems that if you take David’s to court the venue is in Canada.
> 
> Doing a charge back is not the same and US companies or companies in other countries have to follow the rules in those countries.
> 
> Here in the EU the KLM airline is not following EU law for cancelled flights. Normally they should do a refund but the Dutch government said a voucher was okay.
> 
> Had it been me I would file for a charge back both in Canada and anywhere else if I had ordered something which was not delivered.


Customer cannot do multiple chargebacks - only with the credit card they used for payment to David. Somebody else explained on this thread how such disputes are reviewed and decided - by a low paid, overworked employee at the card issuing bank. Most of David’s renters are in the US, but it does not really matter. As you mentioned, a ruling of the Canadian ministry of transportation that vouchers are an acceptable form of refund for canceled travel, with the provision in the contract that it is subject to Canadian law, should make David’s case in a credit card dispute very strong. I now think most renters may need to do their best with the offered vouchers.


----------



## Krandor

suemom2kay said:


> David’s raised their price per point. So even if points required are equal, will still cost renter more.




So use the voucher on the exact same trip as was cancelled and david still makes more money. smh


----------



## suemom2kay

Dracula said:


> Airlines, travel agents, hotels - same thing. The point is, if the Canadian Department of Transportation gave guidance that it is OK to issue travel vouchers for canceled travel-related activities, it is possible that David would use this as he argues the credit card disputes. I am really curious how all these chargebacks would turn out, hopefully we’ll hear from his renters.


Again the key difference is the airline has a seat on an airplane to offer that voucher against. David’s owns nothing. And whose giving him points in the future to fulfill the voucher. Not this girl.


----------



## Krandor

suemom2kay said:


> Again the key difference is the airline has a seat on an airplane to offer that voucher against. David’s owns nothing. And whose giving him points in the future to fulfill the voucher. Not this girl.



Right.  since an airline owns the plane they could reserver 5-10 seats per plane for voucher people and fill the rest with paying customers and not take a big hit on the voucher especially if those seats would likely be empty.  David is still going to have to pay an owner their owed price even though he isn't getting money from the renter on the voucher.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Amymouse13 said:


> Pretty much... Lol.


I'm assuming my bank hasn't managed to reach out to him yet, since I didn't get a rescinded email on the credit but I did file the dispute over a week ago.  That's so odd.


----------



## momincolorado

Dracula said:


> Airlines, travel agents, hotels - same thing. The point is, if the Canadian Department of Transportation gave guidance that it is OK to issue travel vouchers for canceled travel-related activities, it is possible that David would use this as he argues the credit card disputes. I am really curious how all these chargebacks would turn out, hopefully we’ll hear from his renters.



US DOT requires airlines to issue a refund when flights are cancelled, this requirement extends to all airlines (US and other international carriers) that touch on US soil. Delta sent an internal memo out to travel agents a couple of weeks back letting them know that they will no longer fight any chargebacks for cancelled flights. There is a process in place for those customers who are having trouble obtaining the refunds (incl refunds from international carriers that operate US flights), you can file a complaint with DOT, let the airline know that you are doing this and that will often times get things moving. If not, chargeback is an option as well.


----------



## suemom2kay

Krandor said:


> Right.  since an airline owns the plane they could reserver 5-10 seats per plane for voucher people and fill the rest with paying customers and not take a big hit on the voucher especially if those seats would likely be empty.  David is still going to have to pay an owner their owed price even though he isn't getting money from the renter on the voucher.


And David's doesn't own any hotel rooms so what is the voucher against?  What owner's will do business with him after this fiasco?  For all the protection he advertised, it was just smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Krandor

suemom2kay said:


> And David's doesn't own any hotel rooms so what is the voucher against?  What owner's will do business with him after this fiasco?  For all the protection he advertised, it was just smoke and mirrors.



and to use the voucher to rent points you have to give david a deposit.  Why?


----------



## Dracula

suemom2kay said:


> And David's doesn't own any hotel rooms so what is the voucher against?  What owner's will do business with him after this fiasco?  For all the protection he advertised, it was just smoke and mirrors.


I can't talk about others, but I would keep doing business with David as long as he keeps paying on our contracts. So far on our impacted reservations I offered to re-rent my points with him, and kept the 70%. And re-rental is supposed to take place at the higher 2020 price, $15.50 per point.


----------



## Krandor

Dracula said:


> I can't talk about others, but I would keep doing business with David as long as he keeps paying on our contracts. So far on our impacted reservations I offered to re-rent my points with him, and kept the 70%. And re-rental is supposed to take place at the higher 2020 price, $15.50 per point.



So you already got your 70% and he's going to re-rent at the higher rate.  Are you going to get a new payment of the difference between the old 70% and the higher price 70%?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

There was talk a few pages back about increased prices next year, between David’s own increase and what I’m assuming is point chart changes our reservation is $3000 more next year. It’s a big reservation, but still. Yeah I’m eagerly waiting to use a voucher and hand over $3k more, she says sarcastically.

FWIW that is nowhere near the 50% off rack rates people quote that will keep renters coming. It’s fairly in line with standard Disney discounts. There are certainly some resorts and times of year where renting looks unappealing even without the issues that have come to light.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

About re-renting, this is how the earlier renters were told we could get refunds. I’m not sure if that practice was stopped.

Theoretically that money shouldn’t be going to a voucher but straight to the renter with the extra $1 per point going to the owner.


----------



## cmrdgrs

suemom2kay said:


> And David's doesn't own any hotel rooms so what is the voucher against?  What owner's will do business with him after this fiasco?  For all the protection he advertised, it was just smoke and mirrors.


I think there are a lot of owners and potential renters that will continue to use David's.  He controls his FB page and deletes negative reviews, so unless you are on a forum, or know someone impacted, you probably have no clue of the mess going on.


----------



## suemom2kay

cmrdgrs said:


> I think there are a lot of owners and potential renters that will continue to use David's.  He controls his FB page and deletes negative reviews, so unless you are on a forum, or know someone impacted, you probably have no clue of the mess going on.





cmrdgrs said:


> I think there are a lot of owners and potential renters that will continue to use David's.  He controls his FB page and deletes negative reviews, so unless you are on a forum, or know someone impacted, you probably have no clue of the mess going on.


He will have some owners, but word will get out.  His BBB reviews will start coming in as well and Another Forum for DVC owners has dropped him as a sponsor.  I don't see this ending well for David's.  And again, I take big issue on a voucher when he has no ownership of points or hotel rooms.  The terms of the voucher allow him to void it at any time.  Really sucky if you ask me.


----------



## cmrdgrs

suemom2kay said:


> He will have some owners, but word will get out.  His BBB reviews will start coming in as well and Another Forum for DVC owners has dropped him as a sponsor.  I don't see this ending well for David's.  And again, I take big issue on a voucher when he has no ownership of points or hotel rooms.  The terms of the voucher allow him to void it at any time.  Really sucky if you ask me.


No Question suemom2kay.  However, there are plenty of old internet searches out there to point you in the direction of David's just due to his length of time in business.  The board that dropped him as a sponsor dropped him and was willing to give up his money to support their board.  Not a lot of people willing to do that IMO.  He still has it on his website that they endorse him.

Even on this thread we've seen multiple owners still willing to rent through him and not taking issue with his voucher policy.  I think your willingness to do this is 100% dependent on whether that individual owner did or did not lose points in this transaction.

For me, I don't rent with brokers, and I have even sent some renters away from me to David because he had a better price.  I would *never, ever, ever* *recommend David again*, and will be sure to tell anyone and everyone to not use him in the future.


----------



## TheWheel

mrsmnx said:


> Any Canadians currently attempting a chargeback? We booked 11 months ago so not sure it is even an option due to how long ago it was booked.


I'm one of the lucky few that actually got a refund out of David's but in March when I contacted Visa to look at my options  I was told I would still be able to dispute based on when the trip was to commence as opposed to when I payed.


----------



## TheWheel

Dracula said:


> Customer cannot do multiple chargebacks - only with the credit card they used for payment to David. Somebody else explained on this thread how such disputes are reviewed and decided - by a low paid, overworked employee at the card issuing bank. Most of David’s renters are in the US, but it does not really matter. As you mentioned, a ruling of the Canadian ministry of transportation that vouchers are an acceptable form of refund for canceled travel, with the provision in the contract that it is subject to Canadian law, should make David’s case in a credit card dispute very strong. I now think most renters may need to do their best with the offered vouchers.


A big caveat is the Department of Transportation statement is not legally binding, really it's more of an "opinion" that is contrary to Canadian law. There is a class action being built on this in Canada with one of the first requests that they remove this statement from their website.


----------



## vnovabri

Well Disney finally canceled my april reservation that was rented out. Although I dont like the idea of refunding the money to Davids rather than the renter, I guess I will return the 70% to wash my hands of this. 

I rebooked my non-bankable points for the last 5 days in August (before my UY expires). I will either go for a non-park vacation or try to rent the reservation if things calm down. Davids really doesnt give me any other option and put me in a tough spot.


----------



## cmrdgrs

vnovabri said:


> Well Disney finally canceled my april reservation that was rented out. Although I dont like the idea of refunding the money to Davids rather than the renter, I guess I will return the 70% to wash my hands of this.
> 
> I rebooked my non-bankable points for the last 5 days in August (before my UY expires). I will either go for a non-park vacation or try to rent the reservation if things calm down. Davids really doesnt give me any other option and put me in a tough spot.


This is just my opinion, but -- Before you return the money to David -- I would contact him and insist that the money go back to the renter.  There isn't any reason he can't give you the name of the renter and you can mail that check back to it's rightful owner.  It's complete bull that you give David back money that will never go back to the renter.  That renter may need that money, literally, to buy food.  It completely irks me that David is standing in the way of returning funds to rightful owners if a DVC member is willing to return the money.


----------



## disneykins

I am not directly affected by this mess, yet. I am an owner and made a booking for Davids for October, hopefully all will be back to normal by then.
One thing I'm not sure of. I thought our DVC contract as owners said we can't take money in exchange for a reservation for someone else. We can gift our points or bank and borrow them. Am I wrong? I've been an owner for 27 years so its been awhile since I read my contract. I only started renting through David's a few years ago and have had a great experience doing that.
People are complaining about Davids lifestyle, yachts, trips, etc. We dont know his back story but why do we begrudge him the  good life? I'm sure lots of companies have gone under and the owner has come out of it untouched and his lifestyle goes on, why is this any different?


----------



## DisneyBB

vnovabri said:


> Well Disney finally canceled my april reservation that was rented out. Although I dont like the idea of refunding the money to Davids rather than the renter, I guess I will return the 70% to wash my hands of this.
> 
> I rebooked my non-bankable points for the last 5 days in August (before my UY expires). I will either go for a non-park vacation or try to rent the reservation if things calm down. Davids really doesnt give me any other option and put me in a tough spot.


Were your points for this reservation unbankable?  If so did David ask for money back even though the points were expiring?  This is my fear, I thought we would keep 70% if the points were stressed. And David keeps 30%.


----------



## vnovabri

DisneyBB said:


> Were your points for this reservation unbankable?  If so did David ask for money back even though the points were expiring?  This is my fear, I thought we would keep 70% if the points were stressed. And David keeps 30%.



Yeah, after Disney canceled, I banked what was bankable (due by the end of April) then booked the un-bankable points into the latest reservation I could. That way, if we cant or dont feel comfortable going in Aug we can cancel the reservation in Sep and bank those into RCI at a chance to salvage at least some of those points.


----------



## DisneyBB

vnovabri said:


> Yeah, after Disney canceled, I banked what was bankable (due by the end of April) then booked the un-bankable points into the latest reservation I could. That way, if we cant or dont feel comfortable going in Aug we can cancel the reservation in Sep and bank those into RCI at a chance to salvage at least some of those points.


Sorry just to be clear, as this could be my situation.  Did David demanded the money back? Or did you offer it back?


----------



## vnovabri

I have not offered it back yet. They did not demand the money back either, see below. I did ask if I could refund the renter directly a few weeks ago which they basically sent a canned answer that the renter will be getting a travel voucher. I also asked if I could re-rent but they said that they are not doing summer rentals at this time, for obvious reasons, but this does not help me because my points will expire over the summer. So my only option is to take my chance not doing anything (which personally does not feel right) or just return the money and move on.

" We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% of funds for the XYZ reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the XXX Family paid for their reservation including our commission.

If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.

We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution."

Edited to remove name.


----------



## vnovabri

Re-reading it, they do make it sound like they need the money returned to offer the renter the voucher, but I assume that is just poor language and not accurate to the situation. However, if it is accurate then I guess at least returning the money provides something to the renter that I would not otherwise be able to provide.


----------



## cmrdgrs

disneykins said:


> I am not directly affected by this mess, yet. I am an owner and made a booking for Davids for October, hopefully all will be back to normal by then.
> One thing I'm not sure of. I thought our DVC contract as owners said we can't take money in exchange for a reservation for someone else. We can gift our points or bank and borrow them. Am I wrong? I've been an owner for 27 years so its been awhile since I read my contract. I only started renting through David's a few years ago and have had a great experience doing that.
> People are complaining about Davids lifestyle, yachts, trips, etc. We dont know his back story but why do we begrudge him the  good life? I'm sure lots of companies have gone under and the owner has come out of it untouched and his lifestyle goes on, why is this any different?


I don't personally begrudge anyone who has a good business idea and makes money and/or lives an extravagant lifestyle.

As an owner who rents their points privately, I do begrudge being chastised by David over the years, hearing him tout over and over again that he offers "safety." He offers what owners can't.  He's never had a person lose money who has used his services, yadda-yadda-yadda-yadda.  Really Mr. Broker?  Time to put your money where your mouth is IMO.  Oh, but you can't do that because you spent all the money on... yourself?  And now you want owners and renters to bail you out on crappy terms?

I begrudge listening to his rhetoric over the years and now he refuses to help owners and renters salvage a bad situation by allowing people to contact one another.  Instead he is a bottleneck to the solution and IMO has everyone held hostage under his terms on a product that he doesn't even have any ownership in or money invested in.  Owners can't cancel and renters are being forced to accept ridiculous terms of new vouchers.

In the end, based on what I've read and my personal contact with multiple owners, more private owners have made renters "whole" -- brokers are not making anyone "whole" -- not by a long shot.


----------



## cmrdgrs

vnovabri said:


> Re-reading it, they do make it sound like they need the money returned to offer the renter the voucher, but I assume that is just poor language and not accurate to the situation. However, if it is accurate then I guess at least returning the money provides something to the renter that I would not otherwise be able to provide.


How about providing the money back to the renter?  That credit may never be able to be used by the family that booked the original travel.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I think there are a lot of owners and potential renters that will continue to use David's.  He controls his FB page and deletes negative reviews, so unless you are on a forum, or know someone impacted, you probably have no clue of the mess going on.



True, but I know his reputation will take a hit here on the DIS, and potentially elsewhere,

I am going to bet that Disney comes out with some good incentives that is going to make the savings from renting less, which may not be enough to outweigh the risk.

Will he retain some business? Sure.  But it will take a while IMO to have more owners decide to book with him, unless he raises his price and cuts his commission.


----------



## DisneyBB

vnovabri said:


> I have not offered it back yet. They did not demand the money back either, see below. I did ask if I could refund the renter directly a few weeks ago which they basically sent a canned answer that the renter will be getting a travel voucher. I also asked if I could re-rent but they said that they are not doing summer rentals at this time, for obvious reasons, but this does not help me because my points will expire over the summer. So my only option is to take my chance not doing anything (which personally does not feel right) or just return the money and move on.
> 
> " We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% of funds for the Lieder reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the XXX Family paid for their reservation including our commission.
> 
> If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.
> 
> We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution."


Yes that does sound like a request not a demand.  My understanding is they have to give the renter a travel voucher whether you return the money or not.  I am starting the process of early and hoping to reschedule or refund the renters.  I almost wish the renters would cancel then I could refund directly to them.   As David would have to give me the 30%.


----------



## Sandisw

vnovabri said:


> Well Disney finally canceled my april reservation that was rented out. Although I dont like the idea of refunding the money to Davids rather than the renter, I guess I will return the 70% to wash my hands of this.
> 
> I rebooked my non-bankable points for the last 5 days in August (before my UY expires). I will either go for a non-park vacation or try to rent the reservation if things calm down. Davids really doesnt give me any other option and put me in a tough spot.



It is a tough spot but if I am faced with the same issue come August, I will not be returning the funds,

I will simply say I will work with the renter directly, and let Davids know when it is rescheduled so he can update his records to pay me the additional 30%.

If he doesn’t agree, then I will tell him I am opting out and he can keep the 30%.


----------



## Sandisw

disneykins said:


> I am not directly affected by this mess, yet. I am an owner and made a booking for Davids for October, hopefully all will be back to normal by then.
> One thing I'm not sure of. I thought our DVC contract as owners said we can't take money in exchange for a reservation for someone else. We can gift our points or bank and borrow them. Am I wrong? I've been an owner for 27 years so its been awhile since I read my contract. I only started renting through David's a few years ago and have had a great experience doing that.
> People are complaining about Davids lifestyle, yachts, trips, etc. We dont know his back story but why do we begrudge him the  good life? I'm sure lots of companies have gone under and the owner has come out of it untouched and his lifestyle goes on, why is this any different?



Contract allows you to rent a reservation made with your points.  You are, however, responsible for all your guests, so if there issues, your account would be frozen until you get your renters or guests to fix them,


----------



## momincolorado

vnovabri said:


> Re-reading it, they do make it sound like they need the money returned to offer the renter the voucher, but I assume that is just poor language and not accurate to the situation. However, if it is accurate then I guess at least returning the money provides something to the renter that I would not otherwise be able to provide.



No, I’m a renter dealing with expired points reservation and, according to David’s, an owner who refuses to refund the 70%. Nevertheless, David’s did extend the voucher offer to me so the worthless voucher offer is not dependent on you returning the 70%. If you can find a way to refund the renter directly and work David’s into the communication, I’m sure that would be preferable to the renter.


----------



## cmrdgrs

I also forgot to add I begrudge having a FB page that deletes negative comments.  I begrudge the unicorns and rainbows facade.  I also begrudge his ability to be humble and apologetic.

Rant over (I think)


----------



## cmrdgrs

momincolorado said:


> No, I’m a renter dealing with expired points reservation and, _*according to David’s, an owner who refuses to refund the 70%*_. Nevertheless, David’s did extend the voucher offer to me so the worthless voucher offer is not dependent on you returning the 70%. If you can find a way to refund the renter directly and work David’s into the communication, I’m sure that would be preferable to the renter.


This could be true.  May not be true.  Since he won't allow anyone to work out deals in between parties that are willing to work out deals.  Did you try to go the chargeback route?  Another poster said that even if the chargeback isn't successful for you David is saying that he will still honor the voucher.  So, from that standpoint, you have nothing to lose (the one GOOD thing he is doing).


----------



## Sandisw

momincolorado said:


> No, I’m a renter dealing with expired points reservation and, according to David’s, an owner who refuses to refund the 70%. Nevertheless, David’s did extend the voucher offer to me so the worthless voucher offer is not dependent on you returning the 70%. If you can find a way to refund the renter directly and work David’s into the communication, I’m sure that would be preferable to the renter.



Thank you for sharing.  This is exactly why if my renters reservation is an issue, I will not be refunding what I have been paid,

IMO, vouchers should be for those renters whose owners were not able to help in either refunding or rescheduling,

But, that would be worse for Davids because the more vouchers he issues, the higher percentage that could expire with never being used, and thus he gets it all.


----------



## momincolorado

cmrdgrs said:


> This could be true.  May not be true.  Since he won't allow anyone to work out deals in between parties that are willing to work out deals.  Did you try to go the chargeback route?  Another poster said that even if the chargeback isn't successful for you David is saying that he will still honor the voucher.  So, from that standpoint, you have nothing to lose (the one GOOD thing he is doing).



You are right, I have no way of knowing who, at this point, is hanging on to the 70%. David’s refunded me 30% of the total and wants to roll the remainder into this worthless voucher. Yes, I’m taking the chargeback route for the remaining 70% - chase confirmed that I can do this even on a partial amount.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

vnovabri said:


> " We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% of funds for the _______ reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the XXX Family paid for their reservation including our commission."


So, assuming that the travel voucher retains it's value and the renter uses it in the future to re-book, David's will have to keep the 70% that the owner returned in "escrow. "  Maybe not a formal escrow account, but at least holding on to those funds so he has them available when the time comes to make good on the redeeming the voucher.

If he, instead uses those funds for something else (presumably to cover charge-backs), then he will only have funds to cover the vouchers if income from new renters comes in.  But if, he has to pay that money (minus his commission) to the owners for these new transactions, that still doesn't fund the vouchers.  

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around where the money is going to come from when it's time to pay the piper for all of these vouchers that are being issued.

If the 70% being returned by the owner is actually being used to "fund" the voucher, then it would be a wash if David's refunded the renter instead of giving them a voucher.

Lastly, if the renter gets their money back (whether through charge-back, successfully redeeming a voucher, actual cash refund, or whatever), and David's keeps their commission, the owners with distressed/expired points are still left as the sole loser in this scenario.  I'd surmise that a lot of people rent precisely _because _those points are going to expire.  They will lose those points and get none of the funds if they volunteer to refund the 70% to David's.

What if David's asked the owner to give a _partial _refund and he took the difference out of his commission?


----------



## McCrae

momincolorado said:


> No, I’m a renter dealing with expired points reservation and, according to David’s, an owner who refuses to refund the 70%. Nevertheless, David’s did extend the voucher offer to me so the worthless voucher offer is not dependent on you returning the 70%. If you can find a way to refund the renter directly and work David’s into the communication, I’m sure that would be preferable to the renter.


Have you consider how fair this would be to the owner? Fees have been paid on the points rented out. Why should the owner lose out.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Sandisw said:


> True, but I know his reputation will take a hit here on the DIS, and potentially elsewhere,
> ...


It's already taking hits right and left in various locations.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

momincolorado said:


> You are right, I have no way of knowing who, at this point, is hanging on to the 70%. David’s refunded me 30% of the total and wants to roll the remainder into this worthless voucher. Yes, I’m taking the chargeback route for the remaining 70% - chase confirmed that I can do this even on a partial amount.


So, he's issuing a partial cash refund of the 30% to renters (the 30% that some would argue he owes to the owner), and the voucher is only for the remaining 70%?  

No matter how I do the math, it appears that he's using everyone else's money to solve the problem, but not giving up his cut.  Maybe that's actually happening but, based on what his customers are reporting, it certainly doesn't seem so.


----------



## momincolorado

McCrae said:


> Have you consider how fair this would be to the owner? Fees have been paid on the points rented out. Why should the owner lose out.


I didn’t say they should. I simply made a factual statement that according to David’s, the owner refused to send back the 70%. I certainly don’t think that the owner should be sending anything back to David’s. If they are willing to refund, they should be refunding the renter not the broker. If they are not willing to refund, the chargeback is against the broker, not the owner, because the broker accepted the renter’s payment.


----------



## Deb & Bill

momincolorado said:


> You are right, I have no way of knowing who, at this point, is hanging on to the 70%. David’s refunded me 30% of the total and wants to roll the remainder into this worthless voucher. Yes, I’m taking the chargeback route for the remaining 70% - chase confirmed that I can do this even on a partial amount.


Make sure you get the full amount he owes you.  He gives the owner of the points about 54% of what you paid him to make the reservation.  He kept about 47%, the "30%" he owes the owner of the points (24% of the total) and the 20% he kept for himself.


----------



## vnovabri

cmrdgrs said:


> How about providing the money back to the renter?  That credit may never be able to be used by the family that booked the original travel.



I agree that is why I asked  Davids to do this. However, I have reservations about doing this personally. If somehow Davids is able to seek recourse and rightfully demand the 70% back, I will be in a double loss situation.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

momincolorado said:


> You are right, I have no way of knowing who, at this point, is hanging on to the 70%. David’s refunded me 30% of the total and wants to roll the remainder into this worthless voucher. Yes, I’m taking the chargeback route for the remaining 70% - chase confirmed that I can do this even on a partial amount.


Thanks for this.  You say David refunded you 30% of what you paid so that would not include the commission, correct?


----------



## momincolorado

Deb & Bill said:


> Make sure you get the full amount he owes you.  He gives the owner of the points about 54% of what you paid him to make the reservation.  He kept about 47%, the "30%" he owes the owner of the points (24% of the total) and the 20% he kept for himself.



Yes, I made the calculations and have the amounts written down - what went to the owner, amount of David’s commission, what they refunded back to me and what the remainder is. I have an e-mail paper trail where this was discussed with them as well and I have provided it to Chase. Thank you! I will update on the chargeback when I hear anything, I’m sure other renters going that route will as well.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Thanks for this.  You say David refunded you 30% of what you paid so that would include the commission, correct?


Not necessarily.  As "Deb & Bill" illustrated above, David's has possession of almost half of the total funds.  So, if he refunds 30%, he is still holding onto around 20%, while asking the owner to return their 70% (really about 54% of the total).


----------



## Dracula

disneykins said:


> I am not directly affected by this mess, yet. I am an owner and made a booking for Davids for October, hopefully all will be back to normal by then.
> One thing I'm not sure of. I thought our DVC contract as owners said we can't take money in exchange for a reservation for someone else. We can gift our points or bank and borrow them. Am I wrong? I've been an owner for 27 years so its been awhile since I read my contract. I only started renting through David's a few years ago and have had a great experience doing that.
> People are complaining about Davids lifestyle, yachts, trips, etc. We dont know his back story but why do we begrudge him the  good life? I'm sure lots of companies have gone under and the owner has come out of it untouched and his lifestyle goes on, why is this any different?


This is a very interesting clause in David's contract with the owner. Technically David asks to be the exclusive channel to the market for the owner's points available for rentals, prohibiting the owner from listing with other brokers or by himself. This is one-sided verbiage in the contract, because David does not guarantee the points would be rented through his service, therefore asking the owner to assume the risk of his points not being rented. However, I would not lose too much sleep over this clause as it is unenforceable - David has no way of knowing what you do with your points; by all means, let David know if the amount of available points on your contract has changed.

Somewhat similarly, when I sold a house through a realtor, I had to sign a time-bound exclusive listing agreement. In that case, the realtor pursued an MLS listing, took pictures of the property and assumed advertising costs. But in this case, David's costs of loading another 160-point contract in his computer are negligible - it is laughable that he requests (and maybe even expects) exclusivity.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

It occurs to me that all these financial 'mumbo jumbos' may have serious consequences for David.  Canada must have fraud statutes and criminal laws that cover the holding of money for a particular purpose.

I am not out any money yet.  But for example lets say I agree to do what David asked me to do and agree re-rent my points.  David charges a higher sale price but only pays me based on $14.50/point because I have already been paid.  Then David keeps the additional sales money?

How is this not a violation of my existing contract with him and my understanding is that if I do agree to re-rent we continue that contract because I have money already.

So there is literally know theory and no travel agency guideline, no Realtor  ethic that allows a broker to keep part of the sales proceeds outside the commission or agreed to, paid and receipted advances.

This is so egregious I can't see anyone getting away with it.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

It was brought up in the context of how it might impact chargebacks, but another possible issue he has on his hands is whether or not the manner in which he used Paypal for transactions was legal.  It appears from some of the comments that he may have been sending the money as "friends & family" instead of "goods & services" (I can't say for sure this is the case, but that seems to be what's been reported here).  Even if that wasn't done intentionally to avoid restrictions of using Paypal for real estate transactions, taxes, Paypal fees, etc., he could face some ramifications for that.


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> It was brought up in the context of how it might impact chargebacks, but another possible issue he has on his hands is whether or not the manner in which he used Paypal for transactions was legal.  It appears from some of the comments that he may have been sending the money as "friends & family" instead of "goods & services" (I can't say for sure this is the case, but that seems to be what's been reported here).  Even if that wasn't done intentionally to avoid restrictions of using Paypal for real estate transactions, taxes, Paypal fees, etc., he could face some ramifications for that.



His payment to me is listed differently then my friends and family payments,  

It appears the same as when I was paid for a sale on eBay.


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

Grumpy by Birth said:


> It was brought up in the context of how it might impact chargebacks, but another possible issue he has on his hands is whether or not the manner in which he used Paypal for transactions was legal.  It appears from some of the comments that he may have been sending the money as "friends & family" instead of "goods & services" (I can't say for sure this is the case, but that seems to be what's been reported here).  Even if that wasn't done intentionally to avoid restrictions of using Paypal for real estate transactions, taxes, Paypal fees, etc., he could face some ramifications for that.



I thought most were thinking the payments were consistent with goods & services, but maybe I missed some indicating family & friends.  Regardless, with how sensitive PayPal's AML software is, Davids would have had to of had discussions with PayPal simply based on the high volume and dollar amount of transactions he conducts.  They simply would not let him move that much money without following the "know your customer" rules and without having an understanding of his business.


----------



## CraigInPA

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, he's issuing a partial cash refund of the 30% to renters (the 30% that some would argue he owes to the owner), and the voucher is only for the remaining 70%?
> 
> No matter how I do the math, it appears that he's using everyone else's money to solve the problem, but not giving up his cut.  Maybe that's actually happening but, based on what his customers are reporting, it certainly doesn't seem so.



It's actually worse than that; the 30% is 30% of the amount to be paid to the Owner, which is approximately 25% of the total paid by the renter to David's. The 75% remaining is then given as a voucher.

But, what happens when you tell David's you want to stay at a particular resort at a particular time? He collects another fee, which is refunded when the new reservation is secured. But, if he has no owner willing to book that stay for him (a likely outcome of how he is treating the owners), he tells you he can't book your stay after some number of months and then refunds that new fee. This could go on and on, until the voucher expires, each time holding the new booking fee for a few months. Ponzi scheme, indeed...


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Sandisw said:


> His payment to me is listed differently then my friends and family payments,
> 
> It appears the same as when I was paid for a sale on eBay.





Friendlyadvice2 said:


> I thought most were thinking the payments were consistent with goods & services, but maybe I missed some indicating family & friends.  Regardless, with how sensitive PayPal's AML software is, Davids would have had to of had discussions with PayPal simply based on the high volume and dollar amount of transactions he conducts.  They simply would not let him move that much money without following the "know your customer" rules and without having an understanding of his business.


I may have misunderstood the way PPs described those Paypal transactions.  I thought some of the posters indicated that they weren't "goods and services" but it's possible I just misread the posts.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> Thank you for sharing.  This is exactly why if my renters reservation is an issue, I will not be refunding what I have been paid,
> 
> _*IMO, vouchers should be for those renters whose owners were not able to help in either refunding or rescheduling,
> 
> But, that would be worse for Davids because the more vouchers he issues, the higher percentage that could expire with never being used, and thus he gets it all.*_


Vouchers are a way for a business to save face IMO.  They sound good on the surface and some percentage of them will not be redeemed.  Vouchers are only good for a portion of those issued the voucher.

I have a travel voucher on Hawaiian Airlines that was created when my Aulani trip in March was cut short due to the pandemic.  My flight was not cancelled, so I was not entitled to a refund, and due to the long hold times, I wasn't able to reschedule my flight and ensure I could actually get off the island before they stopped flights to the mainland (Phoenix in particular).

I'm 80% sure that I'm not going to get the opportunity to use the voucher before it expires because I only have until Dec 31, 2020 to complete my travel.  From Phoenix, about the only place my voucher is good for is travel from Phoenix to Hawaii.  I haven't fully investigated all my options.  However, I don't see a Hawaii trip happening before 2020 ends.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> I thought most were thinking the payments were consistent with goods & services, but maybe I missed some indicating family & friends.  _*Regardless, with how sensitive PayPal's AML software is, Davids would have had to of had discussions with PayPal simply based on the high volume and dollar amount of transactions he conducts.  They simply would not let him move that much money without following the "know your customer" rules and without having an understanding of his business.*_


Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies.  Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes.  Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.  

For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules.  I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions.  I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

cmrdgrs said:


> Vouchers are a way for a business to save face IMO.  They sound good on the surface and some percentage of them will not be redeemed.  Vouchers are only good for a portion of those issued the voucher.
> 
> I have a travel voucher on Hawaiian Airlines that was created when my Aulani trip in March was cut short due to the pandemic.  My flight was not cancelled, so I was not entitled to a refund, and due to the long hold times, I wasn't able to reschedule my flight and ensure I could actually get off the island before they stopped flights to the mainland (Phoenix in particular).
> 
> I'm 80% sure that I'm not going to get the opportunity to use the voucher before it expires because I only have until Dec 31, 2020 to complete my travel.  From Phoenix, about the only place my voucher is good for is travel from Phoenix to Hawaii.  I haven't fully investigated all my options.  However, I don't see a Hawaii trip happening before 2020 ends.


The difference here, is that your flight wasn't cancelled.  Yet the airline is giving you a voucher anyway because of the unusual circumstances that prevented you from being able to be on the flight.  That's good customer service because you weren't due ANY refund, but they are giving you a voucher anyway.

In the e-mail posted here earlier, David's asserts that this is the same thing... that he is going "outside of" the no refunds policy to give a voucher as a "gesture of goodwill."  This would be true if DVC had remained open but, due to the pandemic, renters were unable to check-in, and he's giving them a voucher anyway even though they are due no refund (in which case his goodwill should not be at the expense of asking owners to return money).

In fact, if the renter is due no refund because of the "no refunds" policy then, by extension, the owner should receive their remaining 30% and no vouchers are necessary for customer recovery, unless David's just wants to take these out of his own pocket as a "gesture of goodwill."

If he was giving vouchers when no refunds are due, then I would applaud him for going above and beyond.

But since the resorts were closed and he's arguably on the hook to refund the renter, these vouchers take on a completely different character.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

cmrdgrs said:


> Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies.  Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes.  Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.
> 
> For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules.  I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions.  I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.


I'm pretty sure THIS ^^^ was the discussion that gave me the impression there could be something problematic with using Paypal.


----------



## momincolorado

CraigInPA said:


> It's actually worse than that; the 30% is 30% of the amount to be paid to the Owner, which is approximately 25% of the total paid by the renter to David's. The 75% remaining is then given as a voucher.
> 
> But, what happens when you tell David's you want to stay at a particular resort at a particular time? He collects another fee, which is refunded when the new reservation is secured. But, if he has no owner willing to book that stay for him (a likely outcome of how he is treating the owners), he tells you he can't book your stay after some number of months and then refunds that new fee. This could go on and on, until the voucher expires, each time holding the new booking fee for a few months. Ponzi scheme, indeed...


Ok, to clarify, in my case, the refund was for 30% of the total amount paid so in other words, the 30% that would normally go to the owner plus (small part) of David’s commission (that’s of course assuming that he doesn’t have the 70% back from the owner). He is still hanging on to a big chunk of his commission. I don’t think it’s their new policy going forward, it’s something they agreed to in my case and they have been, from I have seen, pretty inconsistent. I read of two instances of a full refund very early on, few people that supposedly got something partial, now it’s this voucher. As the time went on, they became more and more insistent on this voucher scheme presumably calculating that that’s the only way they will stay afloat.

Yes, the voucher is a Ponzi scheme. The only possible use of it would be for cash booking but we are most likely talking rack rates, we know it can’t be modified or cancelled (but it can on Disney’s end, in which case he pockets the money) and I would have to trust him to pay not only the one night deposit but actually the remainder on the check-in date. That’s assuming that he is actually still around by then...


----------



## cmrdgrs

Grumpy by Birth said:


> The difference here, is that your flight wasn't cancelled.  Yet the airline is giving you a voucher anyway because of the unusual circumstances that prevented you from being able to be on the flight.  That's good customer service because you weren't due ANY refund, but they are giving you a voucher anyway.
> 
> In the e-mail posted here earlier, David's asserts that this is the same thing... that he is going "outside of" the no refunds policy to give a voucher as a "gesture of goodwill."  This would be true if DVC had remained open but, due to the pandemic, renters were unable to check-in, and he's giving them a voucher anyway even though they are due no refund (in which case his goodwill should not be at the expense of asking owners to return money).
> 
> In fact, if the renter is due no refund because of the "no refunds" policy then, by extension, the owner should receive their remaining 30% and no vouchers are necessary for customer recovery, unless David's just wants to take these out of his own pocket as a "gesture of goodwill."
> 
> If he was giving vouchers when no refunds are due, then I would applaud him for going above and beyond.
> 
> But since the resorts were closed and he's arguably on the hook to refund the renter, these vouchers take on a completely different character.


I agree with you Grumpy by Birth.  My example probably is a bad example -- I'm am not entitled to anything.  It was my decision to buy a new plane ticket and take the voucher because I had no other choice.  My flight had not yet been cancelled.  Part of this is a software issue IMO.  If Hawaiian Airlines' software had allowed me to enter my ticket number on their website and reschedule my own flight without needing to talk with a CS representative, I wouldn't have a voucher, I would have been able to use my ticket.  But, as I sat on hold for hours to speak with a representative, I could see the seats on the plane filling up because the flights were all being cancelled.  On top of that the resort I was staying at was closing with very little notice.  Literally, Hawaiian Airlines was cancelling all flights off the Island in 3 days.  It was a mad scramble to get out off the island before I didn't have a place to stay or a flight.

In comparison owners are willing to give back the funds to renters, but he isn't willing to give that money back to its rightful owner.  That renter could be made whole and David is not allowing that renter to be made whole.


----------



## Marionnette

cmrdgrs said:


> Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies.  Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes.  Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.
> 
> For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules.  I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions.  I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.


Capt*o*l Technologies is owned by (wait for it)...David Mullett.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> This is a very interesting clause in David's contract with the owner. Technically David asks to be the exclusive channel to the market for the owner's points available for rentals, prohibiting the owner from listing with other brokers or by himself. This is one-sided verbiage in the contract, because David does not guarantee the points would be rented through his service, therefore asking the owner to assume the risk of his points not being rented. However, I would not lose too much sleep over this clause as it is unenforceable - David has no way of knowing what you do with your points; by all means, let David know if the amount of available points on your contract has changed.
> 
> Somewhat similarly, when I sold a house through a realtor, I had to sign a time-bound exclusive listing agreement. In that case, the realtor pursued an MLS listing, took pictures of the property and assumed advertising costs. But in this case, David's costs of loading another 160-point contract in his computer are negligible - it is laughable that he requests (and maybe even expects) exclusivity.


Basically sounds like a non compete clause.  It doesn't hold water and is ridiculous of him to put in his agreement because its not enforceable, so why bother? IMO, just more arrogance in an effort to control things.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Marionnette said:


> Capt*o*l Technologies is owned by (wait for it)...David Mullett.


Opps... sorry for the misspelling.  Yes, I realize that David owns that company too.  Question is why are DVC rental payments being funneled through this company?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

The plot thickens...


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

cmrdgrs said:


> Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies.  Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes.  Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.
> 
> For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules.  I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions.  I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.


The payments do come from Capitol Technologies and while I do have additional information on this setup, I will not post about it here other than to reiterate that David's is obviously tied to it.


----------



## McCrae

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> The payments do come from Capitol Technologies and while I do have additional information on this setup, I will not post about it here other than to reiterate that David's is obviously tied to it.


If you look on Google Maps Capital Technologies is the company listed at David’s address. No signs are visible displaying David’s DVC company.  The pictures make it look like a unit in an industrial park.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Grumpy by Birth said:


> The plot thickens...


I don't know if the "plot thickens" or not.



Friendlyadvice2 said:


> The payments do come from Capitol Technologies and while I do have additional information on this setup, I will not post about it here other than to reiterate that David's is obviously tied to it.


Maybe the "plot does thicken?"  --- Obviously, don't expect an answer based on your post.


----------



## Noodlez

I’m an owner with two rentals coming up through David’s. At first I was going to ask if I could contact the renter
 but now I see why this would be unfair. If this was left to the individuals to sort out I would be offering my renters any booking until June next year, and would happily add another few points if necessary. Another owner may say the booking has to be before December and must be the same number of points or fewer. The fair way is to let all renters have 2 years to rebook, regardless of point expiry.

From the other side, I may have a flexible renter who is happy with whatever I can rebook whereas someone else has one that only want all their money back, which may have already been spent. This way, David’s is giving owners an option of refunding, rebooking, or neither.

I fully understand why they cannot pay owners in full and refund renters in full at the same time. This seems to be a very fair way of doing it.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

cmrdgrs said:


> Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies.  Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes.  Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.
> 
> For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules.  I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions.  I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.


You are correct about Capital Technologies.  That was me and maybe others.  That is the name of the company that paid me.  The link led to Dave's web site I recall.

Keeping the funds in the general account, which is not segregated and must in fact be a personal account (at least in the US there is no hybrid business personal account that I know of) or a quirk of Canadian law.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

And just where are you going to post the information
Is this a case of double secret probabtion?



Friendlyadvice2 said:


> The payments do come from Capitol Technologies and while I do have additional information on this setup, I will not post about it here other than to reiterate that David's is obviously tied to it.


----------



## mustinjourney

Dracula said:


> Because my intermediary agreement with David says:
> 7. The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs.
> 8. The DVC Owner hereby agrees to indemnify Intermediary from and in respect of all losses, costs, damages and claims suffered or incurred by Intermediary as a result of the DVC Owner failing to fulfill any responsibility or comply with any obligation of DVC Owner hereunder.
> 
> David's obligations include:
> 4.f. Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in.



I think I've mentioned this before, but there is something known as an "efficient" breach of contract, wherein you notify the parties involved that you are going to breach the contract and then you pay back the money you've received to the broker.

As far as the renter coming after you -- technically speaking, I don't see how they can sue you for anything.  There is no "privity" between the owner and the renter.  They'd have to go after David's and then David's would have to come after you.  That just seems unlikely.

And as far as damages, when a contract is breached, the non-breaching party typically has a duty to mitigate their risk/damages.  Right now -- park tickets, airlines, etc... can all pretty much be refunded.  So I'm not sure how much someone could really be on the hook for.  I suppose there is some risk there -- not sure what I would personally do -- but I don't see it as slam dunk that the owner loses and loses big.

Of course -- all of that is with respect to US law.  What Canada does, I have no idea.  So this could all be moot.


----------



## mustinjourney

Cyberc1978 said:


> I have looked into the crystal ball and I foresee that David’s will have problems fulfilling voucher rental request in the future to come.



yeah--that money is coming straight out of his pocket to the extent any point owners didn't return the 70%.


----------



## meryll83

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, he's issuing a partial cash refund of the 30% to renters (the 30% that some would argue he owes to the owner), and the voucher is only for the remaining 70%?
> 
> No matter how I do the math, it appears that he's using everyone else's money to solve the problem, but not giving up his cut.  Maybe that's actually happening but, based on what his customers are reporting, it certainly doesn't seem so.


Oh, well done on at least getting a 30% refund! We’ve only been offered a voucher for the whole lot...

Anyone else been able to get even the 30% refunded?


----------



## Sandisw

Noodlez said:


> I’m an owner with two rentals coming up through David’s. At first I was going to ask if I could contact the renter
> but now I see why this would be unfair. If this was left to the individuals to sort out I would be offering my renters any booking until June next year, and would happily add another few points if necessary. Another owner may say the booking has to be before December and must be the same number of points or fewer. The fair way is to let all renters have 2 years to rebook, regardless of point expiry.
> 
> From the other side, I may have a flexible renter who is happy with whatever I can rebook whereas someone else has one that only want all their money back, which may have already been spent. This way, David’s is giving owners an option of refunding, rebooking, or neither.
> 
> I fully understand why they cannot pay owners in full and refund renters in full at the same time. This seems to be a very fair way of doing it.



Good points, but it didn’t have to be either or.  If the owner and the original renter couldn’t come to an agreement to get rescheduled, then it moves to the voucher system.

I think that the more owners and renters who had worked it out...or at least been allowed to try, the better this situation would be, at least from the standpoint of owners feeling as though they were being an equal participant in trying to Make it right.


----------



## ScubaCat

Cyberc1978 said:


> I have looked into the crystal ball and I foresee that David’s will have problems fulfilling voucher rental request in the future to come.


If the business had the money, he wouldn't need to conjure vouchers out of thin air.  A responsibly run business would hold the renters' money in escrow until check-in and final disbursement.

I have a renter checking in early January (my first rental ever; great start!! ).  It's only 76 points and I received the 70% already, so if David's ceases to be a thing and doesn't pay me the 30%, I'll probably just let the renter keep the reservation since it's only a few hundred bucks I'd be out.  I know I probably don't *have* to do that, but I have received more than the dues for the points already and there are 3 small kids in the party, so to me it's the right thing to do.  But every situation is very different, so it's a case-by-case decision.

That said, it'd be a cold day in [unairconditioned club cool] before I ever refunded the 70% to David's...


----------



## Choirmom

I'm a renter and have a split stay (2 different reservations) in October. I'm concerned that even if the resorts are open, if David's goes under before October, that my reservations will be cancelled by the owner(s). In that case, I would pursue a charge back, but I will have no room booked. We have already purchased Halloween party tickets, park tickets etc. Would you recommend booking a cash reservation as back up?


----------



## cmrdgrs

Choirmom said:


> I'm a renter and have a split stay (2 different reservations) in October. I'm concerned that even if the resorts are open, if David's goes under before October, that my reservations will be cancelled by the owner(s). In that case, I would pursue a charge back, but I will have no room booked. We have already purchased Halloween party tickets, park tickets etc. Would you recommend booking a cash reservation as back up?


Certainly wouldn't hurt to have a backup.  Most cash reservations can be cancelled 5 days out.  I'd check with the hotel you book with on their cancellation policy.


----------



## Dracula

Choirmom said:


> I'm a renter and have a split stay (2 different reservations) in October. I'm concerned that even if the resorts are open, if David's goes under before October, that my reservations will be cancelled by the owner(s). In that case, I would pursue a charge back, but I will have no room booked. We have already purchased Halloween party tickets, park tickets etc. Would you recommend booking a cash reservation as back up?


Most likely, in case of David's bankruptcy, the owners would not cancel outright as their points would be devalued as well. They would either let you go on with your reservation, or will reach out to see if you can make up the part that David owes them ($4.35 per point). I guess what you do depends on the price of the cash reservation, cancelation fee on the cash reservation, and alternate plans like charging back only the $4.35 pp.


----------



## Noodlez

Sandisw said:


> Good points, but it didn’t have to be either or.  If the owner and the original renter couldn’t come to an agreement to get rescheduled, then it moves to the voucher system.
> 
> I think that the more owners and renters who had worked it out...or at least been allowed to try, the better this situation would be, at least from the standpoint of owners feeling as though they were being an equal participant in trying to Make it right.



Unfortunately, not all sites are as scrupulous as this! I’m on many social media DVC groups and the discrepancies would definitely get discussed.  People with expiring points could get named and shamed for not rebooking. Once the renters had the owners details people could be bullied in to returning money they really don’t have right now.

As I mentioned, this is a recent change of feelings for me. I personally want to contact my renters, but I’m one of the lucky ones that can use my points for another year and I have a few to spare. Returning the paid amounts also wouldn’t have much impact on our lives.   Those who would suffer are those who are already worrying about expiring points that are now too late to bank, and those who really needed the income from the rentals.


----------



## Sandisw

Noodlez said:


> Unfortunately, not all sites are as scrupulous as this! I’m on many social media DVC groups and the discrepancies would definitely get discussed.  People with expiring points could get named and shamed for not rebooking. Once the renters had the owners details people could be bullied in to returning money they really don’t have right now.
> 
> As I mentioned, this is a recent change of feelings for me. I personally want to contact my renters, but I’m one of the lucky ones that can use my points for another year and I have a few to spare. Returning the paid amounts also wouldn’t have much impact on our lives.   Those who would suffer are those who are already worrying about expiring points that are now too late to bank, and those who really needed the income from the rentals.



Well, I just think Davids had a chance to make this entire situation a win win win for all parties.

Instead, he chose a plan that was unilaterally decided, and ons that shifts most of it to renters and more to owners.

So, he did damage to his business.  I certainly won’t recommend him any longer, and won’t use him again,  I think it will take him years to build it back up, if he can survive that long.

However, it is his business and he gets to choose to run it his way.  We will see how his choices play out in the next year.


----------



## ScubaCat

Sandisw said:


> Well, I just think Davids had a chance to make this entire situation a win win win for all parties.
> 
> Instead, he chose a plan that was unilaterally decided, and ons that shifts most of it to renters and more to owners.



The decision was made farther back when he opted not to hold the buyer's money in escrow until the end of the transaction.  It'd be like going to close on a resale DVC deed where the title company couldn't disburse the seller's part because it spent some on overhead and were counting on new contracts behind yours to cover it.  He should not have paid himself (the business) until the end of the contract.  Then, this wouldn't be an issue.  Clearly, he rode the float, and here we are with "vouchers", which are almost definitely not worth the digital paper they're printed on.


----------



## lawboy2001

cmrdgrs said:


> Someone posted on this thread (I believe) that the payment comes (and maybe goes to?) Capital Technologies.  Who knows what that means in PayPal's eyes.  Capital Technologies, just by the name, IMO doesn't sound like a DVC point rental agency or a travel agency of some type, that's for sure.
> 
> For years those of us that rent our points privately have always wondered how David skirts the rules on PayPal about "timeshare transactions" being against their rules.  I always just figured he brought PayPal so much money that he had some type of agreement with them to allow him to do these types of transactions.  I still don't understand any of the payments, how Capital Technologies fits in the picture, or how any of this is allowed to happen without any type of Escrow account -- I'm sure I never will too.



Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction."  It is a vacation rental transaction.


----------



## Amymouse13

lawboy2001 said:


> Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction."  It is a vacation rental transaction.



Well seems the intent may have been to obsure the nature of transaction.  As someone said had it said David's vacation rentals might be problematic.


----------



## Amymouse13

Btw I think took Citi nearly a month to contact David's re chargeback.  I'm not sure about boa as it's not my CC, it's my husband's biz one.  He has until mid June to respond to Citibank.


----------



## suemom2kay

cmrdgrs said:


> I don't personally begrudge anyone who has a good business idea and makes money and/or lives an extravagant lifestyle.
> 
> As an owner who rents their points privately, I do begrudge being chastised by David over the years, hearing him tout over and over again that he offers "safety." He offers what owners can't.  He's never had a person lose money who has used his services, yadda-yadda-yadda-yadda.  Really Mr. Broker?  Time to put your money where your mouth is IMO.  Oh, but you can't do that because you spent all the money on... yourself?  And now you want owners and renters to bail you out on crappy terms?
> 
> I begrudge listening to his rhetoric over the years and now he refuses to help owners and renters salvage a bad situation by allowing people to contact one another.  Instead he is a bottleneck to the solution and IMO has everyone held hostage under his terms on a product that he doesn't even have any ownership in or money invested in.  Owners can't cancel and renters are being forced to accept ridiculous terms of new vouchers.
> 
> In the end, based on what I've read and my personal contact with multiple owners, more private owners have made renters "whole" -- brokers are not making anyone "whole" -- not by a long shot.


I wholeheartedly agree with this.  I opted not to use David's for my rentals because I didn't see any value in his service.  I made about 5 smallish reservations for May through October.  I've contacted all of my renters offering changes or refunds.  Even if the resorts are open, I don't know who may have lost their jobs.  We are very fortunate, I'm an ICU nurse so no shortage of work for me.  My husband was furloughed for a couple of weeks and is back at it.  None of my renters have cancelled but I am glad I gave them piece of mind.  I'm also lucky because my use year is Feb so the timing is perfect for this mess.  David's getting in the way of resolution is ridiculous.  I wonder if it is even legal.  Time will tell.


----------



## suemom2kay

Krandor said:


> and to use the voucher to rent points you have to give david a deposit.  Why?


This one really baffles me.  He says he'll return it after "verification" but will he?  Or will he stall and drag them along.


Grumpy by Birth said:


> If the 70% being returned by the owner is actually being used to "fund" the voucher, then it would be a wash if David's refunded the renter instead of giving them a voucher.


Remember in his new terms he can void the voucher at any time...  I'm thinking he added that little line in there because he KNOWS he won't have the capital to fulfill these vouchers.


----------



## suemom2kay

Marionnette said:


> Capt*o*l Technologies is owned by (wait for it)...David Mullett.


Never mind...


----------



## cmrdgrs

lawboy2001 said:


> Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction."  It is a vacation rental transaction.


I don't understand what your trying to say here. Are you saying that you don't believe PayPal doesn't allow payments for a timeshare rental?

Quoted from a Q&A from the PayPal site:
_services and real estate are actually ineligible. We'll gladly process the payment for you for simplicity's sake, but if there's any issues and you would need to open a dispute, we would not be able to make a determination on it._

OR 

Are you saying DVC isn't a timeshare?


----------



## DisneyBB

I 


ScubaCat said:


> The decision was made farther back when he opted not to hold the buyer's money in escrow until the end of the transaction.  It'd be like going to close on a resale DVC deed where the title company couldn't disburse the seller's part because it spent some on overhead and were counting on new contracts behind yours to cover it.  He should not have paid himself (the business) until the end of the contract.  Then, this wouldn't be an issue.  Clearly, he rode the float, and here we are with "vouchers", which are almost definitely not worth the digital paper they're printed on.


I think that even if he had done that he would still be short.  Because of his contract he has to give a voucher even when the owner can’t pay back the 70% so he has to cover that.  But yes everything else should be there and not spent until the checkin date.


----------



## SherylLC

mustinjourney said:


> yeah--that money is coming straight out of his pocket to the extent any point owners didn't return the 70%.


It's actually much less since he also collected a booking fee and additional money for points.


----------



## Cyberc1978

lawboy2001 said:


> Sorry, I know it is possible what you say has already been confirmed by PayPal, but if not, I really do not believe that a transaction to rent a room at a DVC resort is a "timeshare transaction."  It is a vacation rental transaction.





cmrdgrs said:


> I don't understand what your trying to say here. Are you saying that you don't believe PayPal doesn't allow payments for a timeshare rental?
> 
> Quoted from a Q&A from the PayPal site:
> _services and real estate are actually ineligible. We'll gladly process the payment for you for simplicity's sake, but if there's any issues and you would need to open a dispute, we would not be able to make a determination on it._



I recently had a dispute filed in Paypal from my renter which wanted the money back due to the corona. My renter used G&S.

Long story short, Paypal ruled in my favor not the renter.

PayPal didn’t state any reason for ruling in my favor.

Even though PayPal don’t allow timeshare transactions they didn’t void this one. Maybe they ruled in my favor due to the nature of the transaction I don’t know.

If renters file a dispute (if they used PayPal) then David’s may win too. However if David’s files a dispute with owners he might lose.

I don’t know if my renter used a CC to fund the transaction in that case I might see a charge back filed too.


----------



## McCrae

Cyberc1978 said:


> I recently had a dispute filed in Paypal from my renter which wanted the money back due to the corona. My renter used G&S.
> 
> Long story short, Paypal ruled in my favor not the renter.
> 
> PayPal didn’t state any reason for ruling in my favor.
> 
> Even though PayPal don’t allow timeshare transactions they didn’t void this one. Maybe they ruled in my favor due to the nature of the transaction I don’t know.
> 
> If renters file a dispute (if they used PayPal) then David’s may win too. However if David’s files a dispute with owners he might lose.
> 
> I don’t know if my renter used a CC to fund the transaction in that case I might see a charge back filed too.



I would think it is because Paypal Protection doesn't extend to real estate related extensions.


----------



## McCrae

ScubaCat said:


> The decision was made farther back when he opted not to hold the buyer's money in escrow until the end of the transaction.  It'd be like going to close on a resale DVC deed where the title company couldn't disburse the seller's part because it spent some on overhead and were counting on new contracts behind yours to cover it.  He should not have paid himself (the business) until the end of the contract.  Then, this wouldn't be an issue.  Clearly, he rode the float, and here we are with "vouchers", which are almost definitely not worth the digital paper they're printed on.



The rental market would virtually die if all funds were held in Escrow. Owners won't take the risk of losing out in a dispute that could end up with them having points they can't use.


----------



## DisneyBB

Cyberc1978 said:


> I recently had a dispute filed in Paypal from my renter which wanted the money back due to the corona. My renter used G&S.
> 
> Long story short, Paypal ruled in my favor not the renter.
> 
> PayPal didn’t state any reason for ruling in my favor.
> 
> Even though PayPal don’t allow timeshare transactions they didn’t void this one. Maybe they ruled in my favor due to the nature of the transaction I don’t know.
> 
> If renters file a dispute (if they used PayPal) then David’s may win too. However if David’s files a dispute with owners he might lose.
> 
> I don’t know if my renter used a CC to fund the transaction in that case I might see a charge back filed too.


Did you have a contract in writing with the renter?  I am quite nervous about renting directly because of issues like this.


----------



## Cyberc1978

McCrae said:


> I would think it is because Paypal Protection doesn't extend to real estate related extensions.



That could very well be the reason.


----------



## Cyberc1978

DisneyBB said:


> Did you have a contract in writing with the renter?  I am quite nervous about renting directly because of issues like this.


Yes I had a contract which PayPal asked for and got.


----------



## lawboy2001

cmrdgrs said:


> I don't understand what your trying to say here. Are you saying that you don't believe PayPal doesn't allow payments for a timeshare rental?
> 
> Quoted from a Q&A from the PayPal site:
> _services and real estate are actually ineligible. We'll gladly process the payment for you for simplicity's sake, but if there's any issues and you would need to open a dispute, we would not be able to make a determination on it._
> 
> OR
> 
> Are you saying DVC isn't a timeshare?


I am saying that, IMHO, a rental through David's is a vacation rental transaction, not a timeshare or real estate transaction.  Someone had commented that these transactions weren't covered because they were "timeshare" transactions.  The timeshare transaction is when you purchased DVC, not when you rent out some of your points.   

As for your quote from the PayPal site, that does not say that "real estate" transactions cannot be processed through PayPal, only that their payment protection will not apply.  Some poster much further up this chain seemed to be saying that Paypal couldn't be used for these rental transactions.


----------



## Cyberc1978

lawboy2001 said:


> I am saying a rental through David's is a vacation rental transaction, not a timeshare or real estate transaction.
> 
> As for your quote from the PayPal site, that does not say that "real estate" transactions cannot be processed through PayPal, only that their payment protection will not apply.



According to my link you can’t use PayPal for timeshare rentals rights. I would say DVC fall under that category.

https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp...cy-regarding-the-sale-of-real-property-FAQ799


----------



## Madame

Cyberc1978 said:


> According to my link you can’t use PayPal for timeshare rentals rights. I would say DVC fall under that category.
> 
> https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp...cy-regarding-the-sale-of-real-property-FAQ799


Yup.


----------



## cmrdgrs

lawboy2001 said:


> I am saying that, IMHO, a rental through David's is a vacation rental transaction, not a timeshare or real estate transaction.  Someone had commented that these transactions weren't covered because they were "timeshare" transactions.  The timeshare transaction is when you purchased DVC, not when you rent out some of your points.
> 
> As for your quote from the PayPal site, that does not say that "real estate" transactions cannot be processed through PayPal, only that their payment protection will not apply.  Some poster much further up this chain seemed to be saying that Paypal couldn't be used for these rental transactions.


I don't know. I personally know someone who's PayPal acct was frozen bt PayPal due to a DVC rental situation.

I'll find the PayPal rule and post it.

NVM - DIDN'T READ ABOVE


----------



## Cyberc1978

cmrdgrs said:


> I don't know. I personally know someone who's PayPal acct was frozen bt PayPal due to a DVC rental situation.
> 
> I'll find the PayPal rule and post it.


I already did it. See above


----------



## lawboy2001

Madame said:


> Yup.
> View attachment 490340



Wow, I suppose David's transactions could be described as offers to "rent rights to the periodic use of a property"  -- so if I owned a vacation rental, I can use PayPal, but if my vacation rental is a timeshare, I can't.  Seems a bit of a distinction without a difference?


----------



## Cyberc1978

lawboy2001 said:


> Wow, I suppose David's transactions could be described as offers to "rent rights to the periodic use of a property"  -- so if I owned a vacation rental, I can use PayPal, but if my vacation rental is a timeshare, I can't.  Seems a bit of a distinction without a difference?



I wonder if there is a difference seen from PayPal perspective if I rent and either send an invoice to the renter, send a request or if the renter send me the funds using F&S or G&S


----------



## cmrdgrs

Brokers should not be accepting payments in this fashion from PayPal.  Now maybe PayPal just turned a blind eye to David due to the volume, but others have had their PayPal accounts locked for the same type transaction.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DisneyBB said:


> I
> 
> I think that even if he had done that he would still be short.  Because of his contract he has to give a voucher even when the owner can’t pay back the 70% so he has to cover that.  But yes everything else should be there and not spent until the checkin date.


Yes, in this scenario, David would be short because we know that some owners were paid 70% of their funds on expiring points.  Some of those owners will not rebook and they won't return the 70% to David because the money is spent and they don't plan to dig down into their own pocket to reimburse David.

The way I see this, is as a business you sometimes lose money.  David has been lucky to run a business for a long time that has seen very little loss.  High profit low return as my DH likes to say.  This day of reckoning was bound to happen.  Obviously, no one saw a pandemic, but if he didn't plan for a 2 - 3 month shutdown, or think about banked/borrowed points, or how to handle some type of major disruption to his renters due to a war or other type of major event, he wasn't thinking at all.  I wouldn't be able to sleep at night handling that many transactions and not worry about a major disruption to my business.

But, that's just me.  I never spend the money my renters give me until they have checked in to their room and I know they are happy and settled in.  I even go so far as to set the funds for rentals aside in a separate account for both tax reasons, and to ensure I don't spend money I don't really have until it's all said and done.  I'm sorry, I just don't see why a broker can't do the same.


----------



## Dracula

Madame said:


> Yup.
> View attachment 490340


I wonder what is meant by “periodic use of a property”. According to the dictionary, ”periodic” is an event occurring at regular intervals, say week 23 every year. The transactions that David intermediates are rather rental rights for occasional use of a timeshare property.


----------



## crisi

Periodic can also mean occasional.  Its been a long standing Paypal policy that they don't deal in timeshare rentals.  Not that they follow it, but with that in writing, its another example of Caveat Emptor - I wouldn't expect Paypal to get involved in recovering funds at all.  The most action I believe they would take is that Paypal shuts down the participants accounts - and it wouldn't necessarily just be the owner - so renters looking to this for redress may with to be careful about what they wish for.


----------



## cmrdgrs

crisi said:


> Periodic can also mean occasional.  Its been a long standing Paypal policy that they don't deal in timeshare rentals.  Not that they follow it, but with that in writing, its another example of Caveat Emptor - I wouldn't expect Paypal to get involved in recovering funds at all.  The most action I believe they would take is that Paypal shuts down the participants accounts - and it wouldn't necessarily just be the owner - so renters looking to this for redress may with to be careful about what they wish for.


There are other ways to take a payment with a credit card.  Why not just use one that accepts a credit card?  I use SquareUp for my credit card transactions.  Why break a rule that you know you're breaking (and your renter does not know you're breaking happily thinking they have protection with PayPal) -- that's my question [to David].


----------



## DisneyBB

I think if David used Paypal as if you pay for goods or services then the recipient  pays a fee to PayPal which is quite a bit.


----------



## myth2001

Some more editing to add new information:

Hi newcomer here, and I have an upcoming split stay rental with David in November.

Just trying to see if I got all that is being discussed here, so it seems the current solution being enacted is
1) Owner are being asked to give back the 70% already received and get your points back, David can also try to re-rent out your points for you,.
2) David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld + any fund from owners that are willing to give back their 70% - any incurred cost, will be pooled into a single pool that will support the resolution to the renter.
3) renter will get a travel voucher to be used at David for the next 2 years, this voucher would be essentially backed by the fund collected in 2, and shortfall will be taken out David's profit in the next 2 years
Overall it does not seem that un-reasonable to me?

Benefit to David:

I am guessing the focus is to try to have a consistent solution for all renter and owner, instead of doing one by one resolution which will take a lot more effort, and also risk renter with bad luck lashing out?
Having a larger pooled fund will make it less riskier over all?
Also using voucher system will lock the customers into using David, thus can still get commission
Some of the main objection seem to be:
Renter:
        1) what if David can not remain solvent, and then future reservation and voucher will fall through
        2) how much of "David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld" is left after incurred expenses
        3) wants refund instead of voucher, due to voucher's new term is concerning such as reservation made would be non-refundable
Owner:
        1) you might loss out on the points if they can not be used or re-rented before expire (this appear to be less an issue after DVC extended the point expiration?)
        2) Some owner want to make sure their specific renter is taken care of
        3) Some owner object to being asked to consider giving back the 70%

This sound about right?


----------



## cmrdgrs

DisneyBB said:


> I think if David used Paypal as if you pay for goods or services then the recipient  pays a fee to PayPal which is quite a bit.


There are still ways to take the payment and allow for the fee.  JMHO, but to me, it seems that you're being dishonest with renters.  PayPal explicitly doesn't allow for this type of transaction using their services and David's boldly ignores the rule.  For me, it doesn't sit well, but I'm too conservative, I don't like blatantly like to breaking rules that has been set.  If a company is breaking a rule, and I know about it, I won't do business with them.  I follow the rules and I expect others to do the same on a business transaction.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

McCrae said:


> The rental market would virtually die if all funds were held in Escrow. Owners won't take the risk of losing out in a dispute that could end up with them having points they can't use.


Perhaps, but even under the current system, the owner is only getting about 50% of the funds up-front.  David's should be able to keep the rest tucked away until the transaction is complete.


cmrdgrs said:


> I even go so far as to set the funds for rentals aside in a separate account for both tax reasons, *and to ensure I don't spend money* *I don't really have* until it's all said and done.  I'm sorry, *I just don't see why a broker can't do the same.*


I think the bolded is the part that chafes many... there's a strong perception that David went out and blew all the money immediately on yachts and trips around the world, and now has to give vouchers because the money for refunds is no longer available.  It appears, at least on the surface, that he was banking on the "no cancellations" policy being iron-clad and, as soon as the renter paid, he was "in the clear."


----------



## Dracula

myth2001 said:


> Hi newcomer here, and I have an upcoming split stay rental with David in November.
> 
> Just trying to see if I got all that is being discussed here, so it seems the current solution being enacted is
> 1) Owner are being asked to give back the 70% already received and get your points back, con being you might loss out on the points if they can not be used or re-rented before expire
> 2) David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld + any fund from owners that are willing to give back their 70%, will be pooled into a single pool that will support the resolution to the renter
> 3) renter will get a travel voucher to be used at David for the next 2 years, this voucher would be essentially backed by the fund collected in 2, and shortfall will be taken out David's profit in the next 2 years
> Overall it does not seem that un-reasonable to me?
> 
> Benefit to David:
> 
> I am guessing the focus is to try to have a consistent solution for all renter and owner, instead of doing one by one resolution which will take a lot more effort, and also risk renter with bad luck lashing out?
> Having a larger pooled fund will make it less riskier over all?
> Also using voucher system will lock the customers into using David, thus can still get commission
> Some of the main objection seem to be:
> 1) Some renter wants refund instead of voucher
> 2) Some owner want to make sure their specific renter is taken care of
> 3) Some owner object to being asked to consider giving back the 70%
> 4) some renter worry what if David can not remain solvent and future reservation and voucher will fall through
> This sound about right?


That's about right!
There is another option for #1 - owners can keep the 70% and allow David to re-rent the points. It is essentially the same thing - it reduces David's available cash but provides him with a pool of points to use with the renters redeeming vouchers.
People are also wondering whether there is any cash left at #2 - David's commission and the 30% remainder. As far as the commission goes, much of it may have been spent on credit card fees, wages and other operating costs, and dividends.
Of major concern are the voucher terms - basically David has the right to unilaterally amend the terms, and all reservations made with the voucher would be non-refundable - even when a Disney cruise, for instance, has a clear cancellation policy.


----------



## myth2001

Thanks, added to the list


----------



## TheWheel

myth2001 said:


> Hi newcomer here, and I have an upcoming split stay rental with David in November.
> 
> Just trying to see if I got all that is being discussed here, so it seems the current solution being enacted is
> 1) Owner are being asked to give back the 70% already received and get your points back, David can also try to re-rent out your points for you,. Con being you might loss out on the points if they can not be used or re-rented before expire
> 2) David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld + any fund from owners that are willing to give back their 70%, will be pooled into a single pool that will support the resolution to the renter.
> 3) renter will get a travel voucher to be used at David for the next 2 years, this voucher would be essentially backed by the fund collected in 2, and shortfall will be taken out David's profit in the next 2 years
> Overall it does not seem that un-reasonable to me?
> 
> Benefit to David:
> 
> I am guessing the focus is to try to have a consistent solution for all renter and owner, instead of doing one by one resolution which will take a lot more effort, and also risk renter with bad luck lashing out?
> Having a larger pooled fund will make it less riskier over all?
> Also using voucher system will lock the customers into using David, thus can still get commission
> Some of the main objection seem to be:
> 1) Concern about how much of "David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld" is left
> 2) some renter worry what if David can not remain solvent and future reservation and voucher will fall through
> 3) Some renter wants refund instead of voucher
> 4) The voucher's term has some concern, such as being reservation made would be non-refundable
> 5) Some owner want to make sure their specific renter is taken care of
> 6) Some owner object to being asked to consider giving back the 70%
> 
> This sound about right?


7) Renters have a case to demand refund, hence why David's is offering. Accepting the voucher terms removes that so renters are essentially signing away rights that they currently have in order to accept the voucher.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

DisneyBB said:


> I think if David used Paypal as if you pay for goods or services then the recipient  pays a fee to PayPal which is quite a bit.


Dave advertised, and I think he still does, that owners get the entire amount and that David's pays pay pal fees


----------



## Sandisw

TheWheel said:


> 7) Renters have a case to demand refund, hence why David's is offering. Accepting the voucher terms removes that so renters are essentially signing away rights that they currently have in order to accept the voucher.



To add, his voucher system is depending on his continued success to find enough new owners to rent their points so he can fulfill the terms of the voucher in that two year timeframe,


----------



## McCrae

myth2001 said:


> Hi newcomer here, and I have an upcoming split stay rental with David in November.
> 
> Just trying to see if I got all that is being discussed here, so it seems the current solution being enacted is
> 1) Owner are being asked to give back the 70% already received and get your points back, David can also try to re-rent out your points for you,. Con being you might loss out on the points if they can not be used or re-rented before expire
> 2) David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld + any fund from owners that are willing to give back their 70%, will be pooled into a single pool that will support the resolution to the renter.
> 3) renter will get a travel voucher to be used at David for the next 2 years, this voucher would be essentially backed by the fund collected in 2, and shortfall will be taken out David's profit in the next 2 years
> Overall it does not seem that un-reasonable to me?
> 
> Benefit to David:
> 
> I am guessing the focus is to try to have a consistent solution for all renter and owner, instead of doing one by one resolution which will take a lot more effort, and also risk renter with bad luck lashing out?
> Having a larger pooled fund will make it less riskier over all?
> Also using voucher system will lock the customers into using David, thus can still get commission
> Some of the main objection seem to be:
> 1) Concern about how much of "David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld" is left
> 2) some renter worry what if David can not remain solvent and future reservation and voucher will fall through
> 3) Some renter wants refund instead of voucher
> 4) The voucher's term has some concern, such as being reservation made would be non-refundable
> 5) Some owner want to make sure their specific renter is taken care of
> 6) Some owner object to being asked to consider giving back the 70%
> 
> This sound about right?


Bit missing is that owners could end up being the losers here.

Dues have been paid on the points rented. The owner could easily have paid thousands of dollars in fees. Points could be  returned that are unusable. Therefore the owners loses out.


----------



## McCrae

cmrdgrs said:


> There are other ways to take a payment with a credit card.  Why not just use one that accepts a credit card?  I use SquareUp for my credit card transactions.  Why break a rule that you know you're breaking (and your renter does not know you're breaking happily thinking they have protection with PayPal) -- that's my question [to David].


Paypal rules vary from country to country. In Canada David’s may not be breaking any rules. Providing you are not doing anything illegal you can use PayPal. Paypal Protect exemptions are however the same across all regions.


----------



## suemom2kay

myth2001 said:


> Hi newcomer here, and I have an upcoming split stay rental with David in November.
> 
> Just trying to see if I got all that is being discussed here, so it seems the current solution being enacted is
> 1) Owner are being asked to give back the 70% already received and get your points back, David can also try to re-rent out your points for you,. Con being you might loss out on the points if they can not be used or re-rented before expire
> 2) David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld + any fund from owners that are willing to give back their 70%, will be pooled into a single pool that will support the resolution to the renter.
> 3) renter will get a travel voucher to be used at David for the next 2 years, this voucher would be essentially backed by the fund collected in 2, and shortfall will be taken out David's profit in the next 2 years
> Overall it does not seem that un-reasonable to me?
> 
> Benefit to David:
> 
> I am guessing the focus is to try to have a consistent solution for all renter and owner, instead of doing one by one resolution which will take a lot more effort, and also risk renter with bad luck lashing out?
> Having a larger pooled fund will make it less riskier over all?
> Also using voucher system will lock the customers into using David, thus can still get commission
> Some of the main objection seem to be:
> 1) Concern about how much of "David's commission + 30% of the fund that was withheld" is left
> 2) some renter worry what if David can not remain solvent and future reservation and voucher will fall through
> 3) Some renter wants refund instead of voucher
> 4) The voucher's term has some concern, such as being reservation made would be non-refundable
> 5) Some owner want to make sure their specific renter is taken care of
> 6) Some owner object to being asked to consider giving back the 70%
> 
> This sound about right?


To add directly from David's T&C of his "voucher."

In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
*David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit. *


----------



## ScubaCat

DisneyBB said:


> I
> 
> I think that even if he had done that he would still be short.  Because of his contract he has to give a voucher even when the owner can’t pay back the 70% so he has to cover that.  But yes everything else should be there and not spent until the checkin date.





McCrae said:


> The rental market would virtually die if all funds were held in Escrow. Owners won't take the risk of losing out in a dispute that could end up with them having points they can't use.



This is true, I forgot about the initial disbursement in that calculation. The rest should still be held, though. Business should pay itself last. (wishful thinking, I know.).


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

suemom2kay said:


> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.



I thought David's responded to somebody that the sole purpose of the inclusion of this clause is so that they can offer unrestricted flexibility to this unprecedented offering of goodwill so that the voucher program will function at optimum levels to maximize the benefit to their rental customers..........or something like that?  That silly goose David, he's always about putting the customer first!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> I thought David's responded to somebody that the sole purpose of the inclusion of this clause is so that they can offer *unrestricted flexibility* to this unprecedented offering of goodwill so that the voucher program will function at optimum levels to maximize the benefit to their rental customers..........or something like that?  That silly goose David, he's always about putting the customer first!


Unrestricted flexibility in avoiding refunding anyone.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Friendlyadvice2 said:


> I thought David's responded to somebody that the sole purpose of the inclusion of this clause is so that they can offer unrestricted flexibility to this unprecedented offering of goodwill so that the voucher program will function at optimum levels to maximize the benefit to their rental customers..........or something like that?  That silly goose David, he's always about putting the customer first!


Right...I need a legal agreement to void the agreement on the voucher to give a renter something better than what I originally offered, because no one would willingly accept a better offer. Why didn't I think of that?


----------



## moab44

My family and I are talking about hitting accept on the voucher and trying to book again for next April for the BCV  or BWV.  We have enough of a credit that we won’t have to pay anything extra, I hope. Has anyone hit accept and tried to book again?  We have rented the last five years from Dave’s.  In those previous year everything worked out well.


----------



## cmrdgrs

moab44 said:


> My family and I are talking about hitting accept on the voucher and trying to book again for next April for the BCV  or BWV.  We have enough of a credit that we won’t have to pay anything extra, I hope. Has anyone hit accept and tried to book again?  We have rented the last five years from Dave’s.  In those previous year everything worked out well.


Have you tried to process a chargeback first?  Some reported that David is still honoring the credit if the chargeback if settled in his favor.


----------



## CraigInPA

suemom2kay said:


> To add directly from David's T&C of his "voucher."
> 
> David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.



i.e., If no owner wants to do business with me, or I can't find you a reservation for your requested dates, you get...nothing.


----------



## moab44

I emailed Dave’s and they said if at the time of the request there is nothing I still hold onto the credits. Only if my request is filled is the voucher released


----------



## banzai75

cmrdgrs said:


> Have you tried to process a chargeback first?  Some reported that David is still honoring the credit if the chargeback if settled in his favor.



Agree. Try a chargeback first then you can book with whomever you want. His voucher may not be worth anything and he may not have points to book it with.

once you accept you lose all your leverage and rights.


----------



## moab44

CraigInPA said:


> i.e., If no owner wants to do business with me, or I can't find you a reservation for your requested dates, you get...
> 
> 
> cmrdgrs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried to process a chargeback first?  Some reported that David is still honoring the credit if the chargeback if settled in his favor.
> 
> 
> 
> I called my credit card company they said I was covered under their insurance for up to $1000.00 per person  if the trip is cancelled.   Even by pandemic. They ask about vouchers being offered. If those fall through I’m still covered. No time limit either
Click to expand...


----------



## Fred M

ScubaCat said:


> This is true, I forgot about the initial disbursement in that calculation. The rest should still be held, though. Business should pay itself last. (wishful thinking, I know.).



Totally agree with you. If David's took their commission only on check in by the renter, then he would have close to enough money to line up a new owner for that rental, even if the original owner didn't return any money. Let's say someone rented out 160 points through David's at $20 per point. Renter pays David's $3,200. David's commission on that is $720. The owner is then slated to get $2,480, with 70% at the time of rental ($1,736) and 30% when the renter checks-in ($744). As many others above have posted, at the time of rental, the owner only has 54% percent of the funds and the 46% balance is with David's. If David's takes a commission at the time of check-in, and not time of reservation, then David's has $1,464 in escrow and only needs to go out of pocket $272 to line up a new owner, and then David's has 7 to 11 months to make enough off of other commissions to pay himself back the $272 and come up with the owner's $744 for the 30% payment. But if he spent his commission, then he's only sitting on $744, and his out of pocket costs to get a new owner is close to $1,000. Makes it much harder to line up a new owner, unless the original owner refunds the 70%.

And as for why an owner wouldn't refund the 70%, that amount, depending on when the owner bought is close to, or for some of us, less than the maintenance fees plus price of acquisition on those points. The 70% works out to $10.85 per point in this situation. If the owner got those points for $150 per point, and paid cash, that's $24,000 spread out over basically 50 years (not including tax, title, transaction fees). Even if we don't compound the loss of use for that money, that's $480 per year or $3 per point. Current maintenance fees plus $3 per point will exceed $10.85 for a lot of owners. If an owner is losing those points and can't bank them, then it's understandable why an owner would keep the 70%. And really, David's should be making the renter whole, not the owner.


----------



## moab44

banzai75 said:


> Agree. Try a chargeback first then you can book with whomever you want. His voucher may not be worth anything and he may not have points to book it with.
> 
> once you accept you lose all your leverage and rights.


When I asked about CC they asked a bunch of question and then passed me onto the insurance people. So I’m guessing the chargeback might not be available


----------



## Marionnette

moab44 said:


> My family and I are talking about hitting accept on the voucher and trying to book again for next April for the BCV  or BWV.  We have enough of a credit that we won’t have to pay anything extra, I hope. Has anyone hit accept and tried to book again?  We have rented the last five years from Dave’s.  In those previous year everything worked out well.


Are you willing to pay David’s another deposit to seek that new reservation? If you do, and the voucher covers the complete price of the rental, how will David’s handle the cash you forked over for the “deposit”? Will he apply it to the cost of the rental first, before applying the voucher?

Booking for April 2021 begins May 1. You’ve chosen two very popular resorts (Flower & Garden Festival time). What will you do if David’s can’t line up a BWV or BCV willing to take a chance on David’s in time to get you one of those resorts.

I think that those who are taking the vouchers should consider that this will be a new rental market when the dust settles. If you thought reservations at BCV, BWV, or RIV were unicorns before all of this, you can be assured that they will be non-existent now. Be prepared to either accept SSR or do a hotel reservation.


----------



## merry_nbright

moab44 said:


> I emailed Dave’s and they said if at the time of the request there is nothing I still hold onto the credits. Only if my request is filled is the voucher released



Don’t use points, book it as a cash reservation. Better availability and you’re not waiting for points.


----------



## Galun

I don't think it's a necessarily a Ponzi scheme.  Sure you take money in from new reservations to fulfill old liabilities, but money is fungible.  David's does not incur a loss unless 1). the owner keeps the 70% but David's does not get points back to re-rent, either because the points expire worthless (using banked points), or the owner tries to double dip; 2). the renter initiates a charge back and wins.  In case 1, David's has only lost about 53% of the reservation cost since he keeps the 30% payment to owner and the commission.  In case 2, he really just lost the commission, assuming he got the points back to re-rent.  In all other situations, the math to both the owner and renter is eventually equal.  Even if the renter made a cash reservation, the cash value is only the 70% paid to the owner.  So if you can't find a discounted DVC room, he uses whatever he paid to the owner to book a cash room.  So your voucher will have value.

I read somewhere that he had 2000 affected reservations.  It's hard to say what percent is in case 1 and 2.  In case 1 he loses $10.15 per point (70% already paid out to owner).  In case 2 if the renter does a chargeback and wins, he loses $4.50 per point.  Obviously we don't know what the exact percentages are, and how many points those reservations represent.  But let's assume 100 points per reservation and he take a loss on 20% of the reservations - on 10% he loses $10.15, on the other 10% he loses $4.50.  His loss is around $260k. It's a blow but probably not fatal to the business.  If 2.5 months of closure is 2000 reservations, he can generate over $4 million in commissions per year.

But he does have a cash flow problem immediately.  He might be getting back a lot of points from owners willing to re-rent, but he may not be able to turn them into cash from future reservations, which means no commission revenue for him.  Also, if he cannot re-rent the points, it can eventually become an additional loss like case 1 where the owner keeps the 70% with attached reservation.  This is why he is also asking for cash back first, and re-rent points second - if he get the cash back from the owner then he has no risk of future loss if the points cannot be re-rented.  This is also why he is offering the voucher instead of giving refunds - these reservation will still eventually happen, and thus there is no immediately cash outlay, and eventually he keeps the commission.  If you take the voucher you are locked into making a reservation and thus generating a commission for him.

I think his voucher plan is quite reasonable.  But personally I don't plan on using him again because I think the $4.50 cut he is taking is way too deep for the perceived safety to owners (or lack thereof).


----------



## cmrdgrs

moab44 said:


> When I asked about CC they asked a bunch of question and then passed me onto the insurance people. So I’m guessing the chargeback might not be available


Once you click accept on the voucher, IMO the new voucher agreement supersedes your old agreement with David's.  It's possible that by clicking "accept" that you give up your right to your Insurance and chargeback by accepting the voucher.

I don't what the "best" way is to approach the chargeback.  Maybe other can chime in with advice.  To my knowledge no one has been through the entire process to see if a chargeback would be successful.  That could take months.


----------



## DisneyBB

moab44 said:


> My family and I are talking about hitting accept on the voucher and trying to book again for next April for the BCV  or BWV.  We have enough of a credit that we won’t have to pay anything extra, I hope. Has anyone hit accept and tried to book again?  We have rented the last five years from Dave’s.  In those previous year everything worked out well.


Is the owner of the points unable to reschedule for you?  That would be the better route.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

moab44 said:


> My family and I are talking about hitting accept on the voucher and trying to book again for next April for the BCV  or BWV.  We have enough of a credit that we won’t have to pay anything extra, I hope. Has anyone hit accept and tried to book again?  We have rented the last five years from Dave’s.  In those previous year everything worked out well.


David’s has my BWV points to rent right now  ..... but you cannot book as far out as April yet, so if that is when you are thinking of going you have a while to decide what is you best way forward and still have the chance to book at the 11 month mark if you decide to go the voucher route.


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyBB said:


> Is the owner of the points unable to reschedule for you?  That would be the better route.


Davids is no longer allowing owners to reschedule the renters,  His options to owners are refund money or we decide to rent your points again to whoever we want so we can get money to hopefully use toward your renters voucher


----------



## Dracula

Well, it seems that Disney is delaying point expiration:

"We know that some Members had reservations for Disney Vacation Club resort stays during the closure period using *points that are set to expire*. 2019 Use Year points for April and June that are set to expire in 2020 and that were used for these reservations will be extended for one year from the current expiration date. 2018 Use Year points for April and June that were banked into 2019 and used for these reservations will be extended for six months from their current expiration date. Please note this temporary policy only includes expiring points that were used to book a stay between March 12 and the end of the closure period and that involve a reservation cancelled after February 29. In addition, to better support Member availability, Disney Vacation Club will not extend the life of our expiring developer points.

In light of this and to help with resort availability in the coming year, beginning today Members who want to *borrow points* to complete a reservation will temporarily only be able to borrow up to 50 percent of their future Use Year points per contract, as permitted by your Home Rules and Regulations. Doing this will help manage inventory and accommodate more Members who want to schedule their vacations once the resorts reopen. Points already borrowed for a stay outside the closure period will be honored, even if they are above the 50 percent threshold. We will continue to monitor our inventory and re-evaluate, with the goal of returning to our standard policy as soon as it is appropriate to do so.

Finally, some Members have had questions about how the closure is affecting their association’s *annual dues*. While lower operating costs are anticipated for each condominium association because of the closures, there are many unknowns ahead as the resorts return to operation. Our commitment to Guest and Cast safety remains our top priority, and changes may be implemented to the way we operate, which may add some new costs. Given the unique circumstances of this situation, the proposal is to issue a credit to Members in mid-December as part of the distribution of Annual Dues Statements for 2021 if their association has an operating surplus (as opposed to rolling all surpluses into reserves)."


----------



## ScubaCat

Sandisw said:


> Davids is no longer allowing owners to reschedule the renters,  His options to owners are refund money or we decide to rent your points again to whoever we want so we can get money to hopefully use toward your renters voucher



I'd refund it........ as soon as the renter confirms that she got HER money back first.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

CraigInPA said:


> i.e., If no owner wants to do business with me, or I can't find you a reservation for your requested dates, you get...nothing.


----------



## Dracula

ScubaCat said:


> I'd refund it........ as soon as the renter confirms that she got HER money back first.


Looks like owners with August points are out of luck - will get points back, but only 2 months left to make reservations, June and July 2020, with spotty availability.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Dracula said:


> Well, it seems that Disney is delaying point expiration:
> 
> "We know that some Members had reservations for Disney Vacation Club resort stays during the closure period using *points that are set to expire*. 2019 Use Year points for April and June that are set to expire in 2020 and that were used for these reservations will be extended for one year from the current expiration date. 2018 Use Year points for April and June that were banked into 2019 and used for these reservations will be extended for six months from their current expiration date. Please note this temporary policy only includes expiring points that were used to book a stay between March 12 and the end of the closure period and that involve a reservation cancelled after February 29. In addition, to better support Member availability, Disney Vacation Club will not extend the life of our expiring developer points.
> 
> In light of this and to help with resort availability in the coming year, beginning today Members who want to *borrow points* to complete a reservation will temporarily only be able to borrow up to 50 percent of their future Use Year points per contract, as permitted by your Home Rules and Regulations. Doing this will help manage inventory and accommodate more Members who want to schedule their vacations once the resorts reopen. Points already borrowed for a stay outside the closure period will be honored, even if they are above the 50 percent threshold. We will continue to monitor our inventory and re-evaluate, with the goal of returning to our standard policy as soon as it is appropriate to do so.
> 
> Finally, some Members have had questions about how the closure is affecting their association’s *annual dues*. While lower operating costs are anticipated for each condominium association because of the closures, there are many unknowns ahead as the resorts return to operation. Our commitment to Guest and Cast safety remains our top priority, and changes may be implemented to the way we operate, which may add some new costs. Given the unique circumstances of this situation, the proposal is to issue a credit to Members in mid-December as part of the distribution of Annual Dues Statements for 2021 if their association has an operating surplus (as opposed to rolling all surpluses into reserves)."


Just saw that notification on DVC page.  This is HUGE news!  I haven't had time to really absorb and analyze this, but it appears to prevent a lot of owners from losing points and balances that with future borrowing restrictions (albeit not eliminating borrowing altogether), which many here have predicted.

ETA:  E-mail with this notification also just hit my inbox.  Of note, it says "to help with resort availability in the coming year" so I assume that's how long they plan to limit borrowing (at least initially, I wonder if it might get extended?).


----------



## momincolorado

moab44 said:


> When I asked about CC they asked a bunch of question and then passed me onto the insurance people. So I’m guessing the chargeback might not be available



I have insurance of up to $10k on the Sapphire Reserve but the voucher complicates the insurance route. For this reason, chargeback is a better option. I would call your credit card issuer back, explain to the CSR that you are doing a chargeback and ask to speak to someone who will have some answers for you as to how to proceed (each issuer is different).

If you really want the voucher, I would also speak to an attorney before clicking “Accept”  - someone in your friends or family circle perhaps or a friend of a friend who can take a quick look at the contract in place as well as the voucher T&Cs and advise you accordingly.

As a side note, Disney has not announced re-opening dates (we all hope it’s June 1 but it’s possible that it will be later) and the longer the closure the less revenue this company will be pulling in and there appears to be very little (if anything) in reserves. Even after re-opening, new renters may be harder to come by - parks may be closed or operating at limited capacity and Disney is likely to release attractive discounts. David’s supply chain will also be affected; AFAIK, this is the only broker out there that is asking/demanding money back from the owners. All of these factors will affect the likelihood of the voucher implementation going forward.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Looks like owners with August points are out of luck - will get points back, but only 2 months left to make reservations, June and July 2020, with spotty availability.


Yes.  All of my contracts are August UYs.  I have 611 points currently at risk.


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> Yes.  All of my contracts are August UYs.  I have 611 points currently at risk.


That's very unfortunate. If you have direct renters, maybe you can still get them rescheduled for June / July. If reservations are through David, maybe you can keep the 70%.


----------



## ScubaCat

Dracula said:


> Looks like owners with August points are out of luck - will get points back, but only 2 months left to make reservations, June and July 2020, with spotty availability.



Not necessarily - see the new DVC policy just posted on the member site.  I'm sure there will be discussion in another thread on the specifics, but the points will be extended.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> That's very unfortunate. If you have direct renters, maybe you can still get them rescheduled for June / July. If reservations are through David, maybe you can keep the 70%.


Very unfortunate indeed.  I've already decided to refund my renter if they can't/won't travel (early July rental).  I only have one small rental impacted because as a general rule, I _*never*_ rent in the last 4 months of my UY.  In 14 years of ownership, this is once of twice I have rented in the last 4 months.  Hoping it works out, but if it doesn't I don't collect all the money upfront.  I only have to refund a deposit, which I can easily do.

The other BIG issue is that I have a Disney Collection reservation (332 points) -- again, broke my own rule and traveled in the last 4 months of my UY (I always cringe when I pull the trigger on a decision like that which I know is risky).  I've rescheduled for literally the last 3 days of my UY July 29, 30 & 31 at the GCH.


----------



## Dracula

ScubaCat said:


> Not necessarily - see the new DVC policy just posted on the member site.  I'm sure there will be discussion in another thread on the specifics, but the points will be extended.


Based on the policy update, only April and June use years will be extended. There is no extension, as of now, for August use year points - so reservations made with August points that are canceled in April or May would have the points past the banking deadline and expiring on July 31st.


----------



## ScubaCat

Dracula said:


> Based on the policy update, only April and June use years will be extended. There is no extension, as of now, for August use year points - so reservations made with August points that are canceled in April or May would have the points past the banking deadline and expiring on July 31st.


Good point there, thanks.  Perhaps they'll update the policy as time goes on or make exceptions on a case-by-case basis.  

Worst case scenario (besides losing them, IMHO), you could deposit them into RCI.  I believe 45 days prior to expiration is the deadline for that.


----------



## Dracula

ScubaCat said:


> Good point there, thanks.  Perhaps they'll update the policy as time goes on or make exceptions on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Worst case scenario (besides losing them, IMHO), you could deposit them into RCI.  I believe 45 days prior to expiration is the deadline for that.


Great idea, thank you for reminding me! I was never able to go somewhere through RCI, but I guess it is better than letting the points expire with no recourse.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Based on the policy update, only April and June use years will be extended. There is no extension, as of now, for August use year points - so reservations made with August points that are canceled in April or May would have the points past the banking deadline and expiring on July 31st.



The rules on the website, which wasn’t in the email, states that those with points beyond a banking window will also get late banking if the reservation is canceled due to a resort closure,

So, those with May reservations and Aug UY, will be allowed to bank late if they are indeed closed still,

It does mention that once resorts are opened, no exceptions will be made,  I think it’s a good sign we will see resorts open June 1st


----------



## dragonflymom

ScubaCat said:


> Good point there, thanks.  Perhaps they'll update the policy as time goes on or make exceptions on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Worst case scenario (besides losing them, IMHO), you could deposit them into RCI.  I believe 45 days prior to expiration is the deadline for that.


That would be nice if they do extend this temporary policy if parks remain closed since I have a contract with Sep UY, but I suspect that they may not since the timing of the announcement today may be deliberate, since the banking deadline for Sep UY is coming up.  I look at the announcement as a gentle nudge to Sep UY owners that they still have time to bank their points and they can't claim ignorance about the park closure and how their travel plans could be affected.


----------



## Dvcfam123

Sandisw said:


> The rules on the website, which wasn’t in the email, states that those with points beyond a banking window will also get late banking if the reservation is canceled due to a resort closure,
> 
> So, those with May reservations and Aug UY, will be allowed to bank late if they are indeed closed still,
> 
> It does mention that once resorts are opened, no exceptions will be made,  I think it’s a good sign we will see resorts open June 1st


I’m having trouble finding where is says that late banking will be allowed.  Are you able to help identify where this is stated on the member site? Thanks.


----------



## ScubaCat

Dracula said:


> Great idea, thank you for reminding me! I was never able to go somewhere through RCI, but I guess it is better than letting the points expire with no recourse.


It's definitely a last resort (no pun intended) but better than letting them vanish into thin air.  I'd wait until right up to the deadline though in case they extend the policy exceptions.


----------



## ScubaCat

Dvcfam123 said:


> I’m having trouble finding where is says that late banking will be allowed.  Are you able to help identify where this is stated on the member site? Thanks.



https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/borrow-points/policy-updates/

_Members with later Use Years should follow normal banking guidelines to bank their current Use Year Vacation Points. *If a reservation was cancelled due to the Resort closure after the Member’s banking window, an exception will be made to bank the allotted Points associated with that reservation.*_


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

So, what ramifications does everyone think the new policy announcement will have on David's and the rental market in general?

Off hand, it seems like this could mean those owners who were set to lose points might now be more willing to re-rent them since they still have a limited shelf-life?

Will owners be more inclined to return the 70% to David's and use the "extended" points for a reservation of their own in the coming year?

Could this announcement by DVC perhaps be the lifeline that saves David's rental broker business?


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, what ramifications does everyone think the new policy announcement will have on David's and the rental market in general?
> 
> Off hand, it seems like this could mean those owners who were set to lose points might now be more willing to re-rent them since they still have a limited shelf-life?
> 
> Will owners be more inclined to return the 70% to David's and use the "extended" points for a reservation of their own in the coming year?
> 
> Could this announcement by DVC perhaps be the lifeline that saves David's rental broker business?



No, because now the borrowing rule at 50% could limit owners from what they have available for rental,

Those with banked points expiring aren’t getting that much time to rebook someone.

I guess it could play a role with those with April, June, and maybe Aug UY with May reservations who will now have 2019 points that being allowed late banking,


----------



## moab44

DisneyBB said:


> Is the owner of the points unable to reschedule for you?  That would be the better route.


Lots of people on this thread said they contacted either the owner or renter
My owner never tried to contact me.


----------



## ScubaCat

dragonflymom said:


> That would be nice if they do extend this temporary policy if parks remain closed since I have a contract with Sep UY, but I suspect that they may not since the timing of the announcement today may be deliberate, since the banking deadline for Sep UY is coming up.  I look at the announcement as a gentle nudge to Sep UY owners that they still have time to bank their points and they can't claim ignorance about the park closure and how their travel plans could be affected.


I actually disagee with that motive from DVC's perspective. I'm sure they'd rather you keep your summer booking and let you late-bank if necessary. Otherwise if everyone cancels and banks, that's even more points for the overloaded system to handle in 2021.

Nevertheless, the policy states you'll be able to bank if your booking is canceled due to resort closure, so it mainly depends on what you're comfortable with in terms of going to Disney somewhat soon after they reopen considering all the current circumstances.


----------



## WanderlustinFP

I found my owner, but I'm not sure if I should contact her.


----------



## ScubaCat

WanderlustinFP said:


> I found my owner, but I'm not sure if I should contact her.



From the perspective of a renter, there's probably not much to lose. Problem is, David's is still holding 30% of her funds, so I'm not sure there's much you can do unless they're willing to accept any sort of agreement you work out. It's tricky all around since the broker holds some of the cards but wants to control the entire situation. Understandable for the business, but not necessarily working out best for the renter and owner right now.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Based on the policy update, only April and June use years will be extended. There is no extension, as of now, for August use year points - so reservations made with August points that are canceled in April or May would have the points past the banking deadline and expiring on July 31st.



Aug UY members who have May trips canceled, assuming resort is closed, will be allowed to bank late,

I


----------



## cmrdgrs

I'm not sure the the extension on 2018 banked points for April & June UYs helps things very much.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand, you only get a 6 month extension from the date the points originally expired?  So, for April that means they expire at the end of September and for June that means they expire at the end of November?

Availability for studios (the most popular rental) is very, very sparse right now in those months.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I'm not sure the the extension on 2018 banked points for April & June UYs helps things very much.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand, you only get a 6 month extension from the date the points originally expired?  So, for April that means they expire at the end of September and for June that means they expire at the end of November?
> 
> Availability for studios (the most popular rental) is very, very sparse right now in those months.



Correct,  So, assuming a June 1st opening, April UY is getting a 4 month window,  

And, if someone has say, 50 points extended, getting something with them may not be feasible,.

People may also not want or be able to travel in the summer, which is the Bulk of the time the points will be used,


----------



## ScubaCat

There is still a good amount of studio availability for the next 4 months.  If you have a small'ish number of April or June 2018 points getting the 6 month extension, I'd book something ASAP.  Even if you can't or don't want to go, you can list it 30 days prior on the rent/trade forum (or earlier if you sign up for premium).  Or possibly dvcstore.com could rent it for you as well.


----------



## DisneyBB

I reached out to my renters via David in the end.  Thought I would try and see what happens.  Very quickly one of my renters replied asking to reschedule.  So you can still ask for that via David’s.   My bookings are not till the summer but thought it best to make sure they were ok.


----------



## McCrae

moab44 said:


> Lots of people on this thread said they contacted either the owner or renter
> My owner never tried to contact me.



This is probably the most common situation. The owners contract is with the broker and most owners will deal directly with the broker.


----------



## DisneyBB

moab44 said:


> Lots of people on this thread said they contacted either the owner or renter
> My owner never tried to contact me.


I contacted my renters via David’s.  Was nervous about breaching contracts so thought it best to go through them.  Have you thought about trying to reach out to the owner via David’s?


----------



## lawboy2001

DisneyBB said:


> I contacted my renters via David’s.  Was nervous about breaching contracts so thought it best to go through them.  Have you thought about trying to reach out to the owner via David’s?



What do you mean by this?  You contacted David's and asked to work with renter through him?


----------



## DisneyBB

lawboy2001 said:


> What do you mean by this?  You contacted David's and asked to work with renter through him?



yes I asked them to contact the families to see what they wanted to do about their bookings.   I could have contacted them myself but didn’t want to be put in the position giving incorrect information.  My contract is with David so wanted to ensure I did it right.  I have rebooked one family already they came back quite quickly.   Tbh it very smoothly.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> yes I asked them to contact the families to see what they wanted to do about their bookings.   I could have contacted them myself but didn’t want to be put in the position giving incorrect information.  My contract is with David so wanted to ensure I did it right.  I have rebooked one family already they came back quite quickly.   Tbh it very smoothly.


That’s interesting I asked to do the same and David’s discourage me from contacting the renter.


----------



## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> That’s interesting I asked to do the same and David’s discourage me from contacting the renter.


Ask them to do it for you then. Or did you mean he didn’t want to contact them?


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> That’s interesting I asked to do the same and David’s discourage me from contacting the renter.


 
Which indicates he has been inconsistent at best in this situation.


----------



## Bowen Family

Can anyone think of any reason David’s would resist contacting the owner about deferring my reservation for 1 year? That’s what I’ve asked them to do and am awaiting a response. Our 1 week AKL stay is mid-May 2020, so technically not yet cancelled, but I want to be pro-active about asking the owner to try on June 1, 2020 to re-book our 1 week stay for May 2021. Seems a very simple way to resolve this, as the # of points and booking season are the same. No voucher, no refunds, just a deferral. Any thoughts on how David’s will respond. Because this is the only solution I’m interested in. If they refuse to act as my “intermediary” on this, we’ll just initiate a chargeback. Hope it doesn’t come to that.


----------



## starry_solo

Bowen Family said:


> Can anyone think of any reason David’s would resist contacting the owner about deferring my reservation for 1 year? That’s what I’ve asked them to do and am awaiting a response. Our 1 week AKL stay is mid-May 2020, so technically not yet cancelled, but I want to be pro-active about asking the owner to try on June 1, 2020 to re-book our 1 week stay for May 2021. Seems a very simple way to resolve this, as the # of points and booking season are the same. No voucher, no refunds, just a deferral. Any thoughts on how David’s will respond. Because this is the only solution I’m interested in. If they refuse to act as my “intermediary” on this, we’ll just initiate a chargeback. Hope it doesn’t come to that.



Because those points may not be valid til May 2021.


----------



## momincolorado

Bowen Family said:


> Can anyone think of any reason David’s would resist contacting the owner about deferring my reservation for 1 year? That’s what I’ve asked them to do and am awaiting a response. Our 1 week AKL stay is mid-May 2020, so technically not yet cancelled, but I want to be pro-active about asking the owner to try on June 1, 2020 to re-book our 1 week stay for May 2021. Seems a very simple way to resolve this, as the # of points and booking season are the same. No voucher, no refunds, just a deferral. Any thoughts on how David’s will respond. Because this is the only solution I’m interested in. If they refuse to act as my “intermediary” on this, we’ll just initiate a chargeback. Hope it doesn’t come to that.


Do you know the status of the owners' points? They might expire before May 2021. Also, David's now charges more per point so that very same reservation will now cost you more, which is great for David's but not so great for the renter.


----------



## JasonV

David’s refused to contact the owner to see if they are in a situation where a refund may be possible.  They confirmed that the only option available to me is their travel voucher.  I’m interested in hearing how chargebacks go as this is most likely where I am headed.


----------



## Bowen Family

momincolorado said:


> Do you know the status of the owners' points? They might expire before May 2021. Also, David's now charges more per point so that very same reservation will now cost you more, which is great for David's but not so great for the renter.



I presume David’s would know status of these points, and obviously that’s out of theirs and the owner’s hands. I’m hoping that with the policy change yesterday from DVC, expired points becomes less a problem for re-booking (though obviously still a possibility that I’d have to accept).


----------



## Bowen Family

JasonV said:


> David’s refused to contact the owner to see if they are in a situation where a refund may be possible.  They confirmed that the only option available to me is their travel voucher.  I’m interested in hearing how chargebacks go as this is most likely where I am headed.



That really bugs me. This attempt at a one size fits all solution to a complicated rental process and situation just feels destined to prolong uncertainty. I think they should have had a suite of options for different scenarios, and without making any guarantees, try to find the best possible outcome for each customer. In some instances that might be a voucher, others a rebooking, and others a refund. Having options would at least acknowledge that David’s isn’t in a position to please everyone, which they appear to be pretending to be with this untested voucher system.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Bowen Family said:


> I presume David’s would know status of these points, and obviously that’s out of theirs and the owner’s hands. I’m hoping that with the policy change yesterday from DVC, expired points becomes less a problem for re-booking (though obviously still a possibility that I’d have to accept).


If I as an owner had used David’s and he basically told me to go stick it, since he didn’t pay me the last 30% as agreed. Then I would not use him to rent my now extended points. I’d either go on a FREE vacation or rent the points privately.

Well maybe I give him the chance to rent them all over again and pay me a new 70%.

No way I would do it for free. Had he paid me the 30% as originally agreed then it was a different matter I would of course help out.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Bowen Family said:


> Can anyone think of any reason David’s would resist contacting the owner about deferring my reservation for 1 year? That’s what I’ve asked them to do and am awaiting a response. Our 1 week AKL stay is mid-May 2020, so technically not yet cancelled, but I want to be pro-active about asking the owner to try on June 1, 2020 to re-book our 1 week stay for May 2021. Seems a very simple way to resolve this, as the # of points and booking season are the same. No voucher, no refunds, just a deferral. Any thoughts on how David’s will respond. Because this is the only solution I’m interested in. If they refuse to act as my “intermediary” on this, we’ll just initiate a chargeback. Hope it doesn’t come to that.


I think the main reason the broker doesn't want to do this, even if they could, is control.  The broker is not willing to relinquish control of the transaction.  He wants to force everyone to take the voucher, void the original contract, and maintain control of everything.  He is basically holding renters hostage to the voucher because if you don't accept the voucher and void the original agreement with the broker, you get nothing.  The broker is not interested in offering a "suite" of solutions based on different scenarios.

RedWeek did the opposite.  If owners and renters wanted to communicate, they allowed them to communicate and work out a deal without RedWeek.  Once the deal was worked out RedWeek asked to be notified of what was agreed upon.  RedWeek realized that they were a bottleneck to finding solutions and putting people at ease, so they decided to stop being a bottleneck and allow owners and renters to communicate.  This broker continues to be a bottleneck for whatever the reasons are -- can't or won't -- no one knows.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Cyberc1978 said:


> I’d either go on a FREE vacation or rent the points privately.


If you're able to use the extended points for yourself or rent them to someone else privately, I think you might have to return the 70% to David's to avoid running afoul of "double dipping" rules.  Characterizing using the extended points as going on a FREE vacation would seem to violate that rule.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Cyberc1978 said:


> If I as an owner had used David’s and he basically told me to go stick it, since he didn’t pay me the last 30% as agreed. Then I would not use him to rent my now extended points. I’d either go on a FREE vacation or rent the points privately.
> 
> Well maybe I give him the chance to rent them all over again and pay me a new 70%.
> 
> No way I would do it for free. Had he paid me the 30% as originally agreed then it was a different matter I would of course help out.


I see this point.  David wants me as the owner to continue to do work for his company, he isn't giving up his commission, but I'm suppose to jump through hoops for free for him and as he stated in his own email "work tirelessly" to help his business survive.


----------



## starry_solo

Bowen Family said:


> I presume David’s would know status of these points, and obviously that’s out of theirs and the owner’s hands. I’m hoping that with the policy change yesterday from DVC, expired points becomes less a problem for re-booking (though obviously still a possibility that I’d have to accept).



send him an email and ask if he can contact the owner to see if they got an extension on their points and how long it is. If it’s the six month extension, then you have to be able to travel sometime in summer to early fall. Are you willing to do that?


----------



## Bowen Family

cmrdgrs said:


> I think the main reason the broker doesn't want to do this, even if they could, is control.  The broker is not willing to relinquish control of the transaction.  He wants to force everyone to take the voucher, void the original contract, and maintain control of everything.  He is basically holding renters hostage to the voucher because if you don't accept the voucher and void the original agreement with the broker, you get nothing.  The broker is not interested in offering a "suite" of solutions based on different scenarios.
> 
> RedWeek did the opposite.  If owners and renters wanted to communicate, they allowed them to communicate and work out a deal without RedWeek.  Once the deal was worked out RedWeek asked to be notified of what was agreed upon.  RedWeek realized that they were a bottleneck to finding solutions and putting people at ease, so they decided to stop being a bottleneck and allow owners and renters to communicate.  This broker continues to be a bottleneck for whatever the reasons are -- can't or won't -- no one knows.



This is exactly what I originally asked David’s for, and they refused on the grounds that they are my intermediary. Ok, fine, if their job is to be an intermediary then they should have to take my proposal back to the owner on my behalf. But they are conflicted and hence part of the problem, not the solution.


----------



## Bowen Family

starry_solo said:


> send him an email and ask if he can contact the owner to see if they got an extension on their points and how long it is. If it’s the six month extension, then you have to be able to travel sometime in summer to early fall. Are you willing to do that?



Yes, I’ve asked them to contact the owner to explore different options for rebooking. Just received another refusal from David’s within the last hour, and a reminder that I am eligible for a “possible travel credit”. Not good enough. I’ve given them one last chance to contact the owner and if they refuse again I’ll start a charge back claim.


----------



## McCrae

Grumpy by Birth said:


> If you're able to use the extended points for yourself or rent them to someone else privately, I think you might have to return the 70% to David's to avoid running afoul of "double dipping" rules.  Characterizing using the extended points as going on a FREE vacation would seem to violate that rule.


There is no such rule.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Grumpy by Birth said:


> If you're able to use the extended points for yourself or rent them to someone else privately, I think you might have to return the 70% to David's to avoid running afoul of "double dipping" rules.  Characterizing using the extended points as going on a FREE vacation would seem to violate that rule.



Assuming David’s tried to stick it to me I don’t think he would do anything to pursue this. If he did it would fall back on him too.


----------



## Cyberc1978

cmrdgrs said:


> I see this point.  David wants me as the owner to continue to do work for his company, he isn't giving up his commission, but I'm suppose to jump through hoops for free for him and as he stated in his own email "work tirelessly" to help his business survive.



I actually think with this new solution with extended points and David’s treating owners badly will bite him in the a.. since owners with expired points now get them back.

Why should owners work with David’s and not use the points themselves?


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I see this point.  David wants me as the owner to continue to do work for his company, he isn't giving up his commission, but I'm suppose to jump through hoops for free for him and as he stated in his own email "work tirelessly" to help his business survive.



If I am asked to reschedule, I will not do it for free,  I will expect the additional $1 per point he will be charging the renter.  If not, I’ll pull my points and refund the money and wash my hands of it...of course, this is only if the resort is closed.  If it is open, renter either goes or I keep the 70% and the points.


----------



## Pluto777

..


----------



## Pluto777

Sandisw said:


> If I am asked to reschedule, I will not do it for free,  I will expect the additional $1 per point he will be charging the renter.  If not, I’ll pull my points and refund the money and wash my hands of it...of course, this is only if the resort is closed.  If it is open, renter either goes or I keep the 70% and the points.


This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but here goes the "sorry folks, the moose for renting DVC points shoulda told ya" opinion (if any of you saw the old National Lampoon's "Vacation" with Chevy Chase you get the paraphrased joke).

Maybe many of you out there are like myself; but the first time I heard about 'renting points' to get a huge discount at WDW I was skeptical and wasn't sure if I even believed it was real. I was worried it might be a scam, what if we showed up (it was a huge family trip) after spending thousands and there was a problem? It almost sounded too good to be true - but the low price was too tempting. As it turned out for us, & probably many of you, it has been a fantastic cost saver for most of us who have saved thousands on vacations by renting DVC points vs cash stays through WDW direct.  

I understood as soon as I read about renting DVC points that there WAS some risk when it came to cancellations compared to a cash stay, and that this was the the other side of the coin of the huge financial savings. Well, guess what? It seems that the risk has finally arrived. I sympathize with all those renters of points from a broker who did not buy insurance, but when you signed the contract, did you not know there was an element of risk versus paying more to book directly through Disney for cash? Did you carefully read the contract to rent points and accept the fact that you were getting a huge discount in exchange for giving up some of the cancellation policies of a cash stay?

I have been both a renter AND an owner, so I understand from both perspectives. While I never worked specifically with Davids, we rented points from other brokers and I have to say that there WAS an option to pay for insurance IN CASE of cancellation on the website we used. One family group took the insurance, the other did not. I don't know if Davids mentions insurance or not, but when I looked into using them to rent, I'm pretty sure I remember at least ASKING them about insurance.  Remember, the whole idea behind renting points is that you save a TON OF $$$$ vs a WDW cash stay.  In many cases we checked out, it was such a huge discount we we're suspicious and we DID inquire about travel insurance (and as I said some of us bought it).

Maybe I am a bit old school, but my philosophy is you don't get something for nothing. If you are paying $360 a night for a comparable room that is offered direct for $780 a night then IMO  have to be willing to accept certain things that you are NOT getting with that discount, OR you have to be WILLLING TO BUY ADDITIONAL INSURANCE protection.

Cash direct through WDW gives a what IMO are VERY generous cancellation terms. Yes you pay extra for it, but you are guaranteed by the "Mouse himself" that what you pay for with only what I believe is a 5 day cancellation notice. Can you REALLY argue you are entitled to the same protection that a person who paid premium rack rate to WDW directly should get when you spent only half that amount by renting DVC points and opting NOT to buy insurance protection?  Of COURSE I feel bad for any renter or owner affected by this mess - this is afterall a nightmare across the world and many people are losing far more than vacations and money. Heck, EVEN WDW cash ressies have that 5 day rule, so on SOME level there is ALWAYS going to be some element of risk (natural disasters, airline/travel problems, last minute illness, PANDEMICS etc) when you commit to a hugely expensive vacation - how much MORE so if you opt NOT to pay for travel insurance?

When you sign a contract I believe you MUST read the TERMS of that contract, and although I am not a lawyer, it was pretty clear to me that by renting DVC points and NOT paying the higher cash price directly to WDW we we're taking on some added risk vs a cash through WDW stay. Is there less risk from a broker vs an individual? I don't know. I suppose it depends on which broker used and which individual used. I do know though that the more $$ put on the table, whether its to buy OR rent DVC points, the more you risk losing if there is a 'bump in the road' for your vacation without travel insurance. As I said, I have NEVER used David's, but I have used other brokers and I have to say, I WAS just a little bit nervous that someone might get a last minute illness, a flight delay, bad weather etc etc. However I was WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT RISK because I saved about 60% off the cost of a cash booking directly through WDW to rent our points. Just as I also accepted the financial risks of DVC ownership.  Should I have also paid for tavel insurance when I rented? Probably. But when you get on a plane and fly 25,000 feet in the air, are you not taking a risk? It's all a question of how much of a risk a person feels is REASONABLE vs the reward/savings of time or money on a vacation that they spend.

 I leave to those who have contracts they signed with Davids and the experts out there who understand those contracts that specific problem. I of COURSE personally feel bad for EVERYONE,  renters, owners AND Davids who are losing and will lose here. After all, literally everyone on earth is hurting from this COVID nightmare. Vacations have been lost and people are stressed out. Some owners are losing points for personal family reservations, Disney is getting hurt, brokers are getting hurt etc etc. Some friends of mine who own at DVC have told me because they lost banked points that were due to expire soon they have lost points. Is someone 'reimbursing' them? No. What happens to owners who invested in DVC? What happens to cast Members who lose jobs? What happens to flights that were paid for and lost? This thing is a mess and for sure, some people are going to lose something.

While this is a board dealing with vacations to a place we all love, the REAL suffering out there are people who are sick or dying, people who have lost jobs and livelihoods lost. We must not over look these far more serious problems and accept that were all hurting.  That said, this a board about Disney vacations so I believe that when you sign a contract, you should be held to whatever you signed up for. If you took a risk in exchange for a discount, then is it really fair to complain if an unforeseen event comes up, and you are now held to that contract after you decided NOT to buy insurance? 

I  personally did NOT buy travel insurance a huge family trip (though some family did) and was lucky enough that we had a great time with no problems, but IF this or some other disaster had come up to scuttle our travel plans, I was 100% mentally prepared and was willing to accept the financial loss because it was MY gamble that I took NOT to buy the insurance vs saving thousands on the trip. I knew the risks of renting points, I accepted that risk and if I had lost money because I chose NOT to pay for the insurance I was prepared to accept the loss.  Just my opinion..


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Pluto777 said:


> This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but here goes the "sorry folks, the moose for renting DVC points shoulda told ya" opinion (if any of you saw the old National Lampoon's "Vacation" with Chevy Chase you get the paraphrased joke).
> 
> Maybe many of you out there are like myself; but the first time I heard about 'renting points' to get a huge discount at WDW I was skeptical and wasn't sure if I even believed it was real. I was worried it might be a scam, what if we showed up (it was a huge family trip) after spending thousands and there was a problem? It almost sounded too good to be true - but the low price was too tempting. As it turned out for us, & probably many of you, it has been a fantastic cost saver for most of us who have saved thousands on vacations by renting DVC points vs cash stays through WDW direct.
> 
> I understood as soon as I read about renting DVC points that there WAS some risk when it came to cancellations compared to a cash stay, and that this was the the other side of the coin of the huge financial savings. Well, guess what? It seems that the risk has finally arrived. I sympathize with all those renters of points from a broker who did not buy insurance, but when you signed the contract, did you not know there was an element of risk versus paying more to book directly through Disney for cash? Did you carefully read the contract to rent points and accept the fact that you were getting a huge discount in exchange for giving up some of the cancellation policies of a cash stay?
> 
> I have been both a renter AND an owner, so I understand from both perspectives. While I never worked specifically with Davids, we rented points from other brokers and I have to say that there WAS an option to pay for insurance IN CASE of cancellation on the website we used. One family group took the insurance, the other did not. I don't know if Davids mentions insurance or not, but when I looked into using them to rent, I'm pretty sure I remember at least ASKING them about insurance.  Remember, the whole idea behind renting points is that you save a TON OF $$$$ vs a WDW cash stay.  In many cases we checked out, it was such a huge discount we we're suspicious and we DID inquire about travel insurance (and as I said some of us bought it).
> 
> Maybe I am a bit old school, but my philosophy is you don't get something for nothing. If you are paying $360 a night for a comparable room that is offered direct for $780 a night then IMO  have to be willing to accept certain things that you are NOT getting with that discount, OR you have to be WILLLING TO BUY ADDITIONAL INSURANCE protection.
> 
> Cash direct through WDW gives a what IMO are VERY generous cancellation terms. Yes you pay extra for it, but you are guaranteed by the "Mouse himself" that what you pay for with only what I believe is a 5 day cancellation notice. Can you REALLY argue you are entitled to the same protection that a person who paid premium rack rate to WDW directly should get when you spent only half that amount by renting DVC points and opting NOT to buy insurance protection?  Of COURSE I feel bad for any renter or owner affected by this mess - this is afterall a nightmare across the world and many people are losing far more than vacations and money. Heck, EVEN WDW cash ressies have that 5 day rule, so on SOME level there is ALWAYS going to be some element of risk (natural disasters, airline/travel problems, last minute illness, PANDEMICS etc) when you commit to a hugely expensive vacation - how much MORE so if you opt NOT to pay for travel insurance?
> 
> When you sign a contract I believe you MUST read the TERMS of that contract, and although I am not a lawyer, it was pretty clear to me that by renting DVC points and NOT paying the higher cash price directly to WDW we we're taking on some added risk vs a cash through WDW stay. Is there less risk from a broker vs an individual? I don't know. I suppose it depends on which broker used and which individual used. I do know though that the more $$ put on the table, whether its to buy OR rent DVC points, the more you risk losing if there is a 'bump in the road' for your vacation without travel insurance. As I said, I have NEVER used David's, but I have used other brokers and I have to say, I WAS just a little bit nervous that someone might get a last minute illness, a flight delay, bad weather etc etc. However I was WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT RISK because I saved about 60% off the cost of a cash booking directly through WDW to rent our points. Just as I also accepted the financial risks of DVC ownership.  Should I have also paid for tavel insurance when I rented? Probably. But when you get on a plane and fly 25,000 feet in the air, are you not taking a risk? It's all a question of how much of a risk a person feels is REASONABLE vs the reward/savings of time or money on a vacation that they spend.
> 
> I leave to those who have contracts they signed with Davids and the experts out there who understand those contracts that specific problem. I of COURSE personally feel bad for EVERYONE,  renters, owners AND Davids who are losing and will lose here. After all, literally everyone on earth is hurting from this COVID nightmare. Vacations have been lost and people are stressed out. Some owners are losing points for personal family reservations, Disney is getting hurt, brokers are getting hurt etc etc. Some friends of mine who own at DVC have told me because they lost banked points that were due to expire soon they have lost points. Is someone 'reimbursing' them? No. What happens to owners who invested in DVC? What happens to cast Members who lose jobs? What happens to flights that were paid for and lost? This thing is a mess and for sure, some people are going to lose something.
> 
> While this is a board dealing with vacations to a place we all love, the REAL suffering out there are people who are sick or dying, people who have lost jobs and livelihoods lost. We must not over look these far more serious problems and accept that were all hurting.  That said, this a board about Disney vacations so I believe that when you sign a contract, you should be held to whatever you signed up for. If you took a risk in exchange for a discount, then is it really fair to complain if an unforeseen event comes up, and you are now held to that contract after you decided NOT to buy insurance?
> 
> I  personally did NOT buy travel insurance a huge family trip (though some family did) and was lucky enough that we had a great time with no problems, but IF this or some other disaster had come up to scuttle our travel plans, I was 100% mentally prepared and was willing to accept the financial loss because it was MY gamble that I took NOT to buy the insurance vs saving thousands on the trip. I knew the risks of renting points, I accepted that risk and if I had lost money because I chose NOT to pay for the insurance I was prepared to accept the loss.  Just my opinion..


I would be really happy to see the names of the wonderful insurance companies you speak of.  To what I have read almost none are paying off over C19.  My understanding, since I never bought the coverage since it really did't cover anything (last year traveling with 7 months pregnant dil) is even Disney insurance that directly links to Disney is no longer covering C19


----------



## yankeesfan123

Pluto777 said:


> This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but here goes the "sorry folks, the moose for renting DVC points shoulda told ya" opinion (if any of you saw the old National Lampoon's "Vacation" with Chevy Chase you get the paraphrased joke).
> 
> Maybe many of you out there are like myself; but the first time I heard about 'renting points' to get a huge discount at WDW I was skeptical and wasn't sure if I even believed it was real. I was worried it might be a scam, what if we showed up (it was a huge family trip) after spending thousands and there was a problem? It almost sounded too good to be true - but the low price was too tempting. As it turned out for us, & probably many of you, it has been a fantastic cost saver for most of us who have saved thousands on vacations by renting DVC points vs cash stays through WDW direct.
> 
> I understood as soon as I read about renting DVC points that there WAS some risk when it came to cancellations compared to a cash stay, and that this was the the other side of the coin of the huge financial savings. Well, guess what? It seems that the risk has finally arrived. I sympathize with all those renters of points from a broker who did not buy insurance, but when you signed the contract, did you not know there was an element of risk versus paying more to book directly through Disney for cash? Did you carefully read the contract to rent points and accept the fact that you were getting a huge discount in exchange for giving up some of the cancellation policies of a cash stay?
> 
> I have been both a renter AND an owner, so I understand from both perspectives. While I never worked specifically with Davids, we rented points from other brokers and I have to say that there WAS an option to pay for insurance IN CASE of cancellation on the website we used. One family group took the insurance, the other did not. I don't know if Davids mentions insurance or not, but when I looked into using them to rent, I'm pretty sure I remember at least ASKING them about insurance.  Remember, the whole idea behind renting points is that you save a TON OF $$$$ vs a WDW cash stay.  In many cases we checked out, it was such a huge discount we we're suspicious and we DID inquire about travel insurance (and as I said some of us bought it).
> 
> Maybe I am a bit old school, but my philosophy is you don't get something for nothing. If you are paying $360 a night for a comparable room that is offered direct for $780 a night then IMO  have to be willing to accept certain things that you are NOT getting with that discount, OR you have to be WILLLING TO BUY ADDITIONAL INSURANCE protection.
> 
> Cash direct through WDW gives a what IMO are VERY generous cancellation terms. Yes you pay extra for it, but you are guaranteed by the "Mouse himself" that what you pay for with only what I believe is a 5 day cancellation notice. Can you REALLY argue you are entitled to the same protection that a person who paid premium rack rate to WDW directly should get when you spent only half that amount by renting DVC points and opting NOT to buy insurance protection?  Of COURSE I feel bad for any renter or owner affected by this mess - this is afterall a nightmare across the world and many people are losing far more than vacations and money. Heck, EVEN WDW cash ressies have that 5 day rule, so on SOME level there is ALWAYS going to be some element of risk (natural disasters, airline/travel problems, last minute illness, PANDEMICS etc) when you commit to a hugely expensive vacation - how much MORE so if you opt NOT to pay for travel insurance?
> 
> When you sign a contract I believe you MUST read the TERMS of that contract, and although I am not a lawyer, it was pretty clear to me that by renting DVC points and NOT paying the higher cash price directly to WDW we we're taking on some added risk vs a cash through WDW stay. Is there less risk from a broker vs an individual? I don't know. I suppose it depends on which broker used and which individual used. I do know though that the more $$ put on the table, whether its to buy OR rent DVC points, the more you risk losing if there is a 'bump in the road' for your vacation without travel insurance. As I said, I have NEVER used David's, but I have used other brokers and I have to say, I WAS just a little bit nervous that someone might get a last minute illness, a flight delay, bad weather etc etc. However I was WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT RISK because I saved about 60% off the cost of a cash booking directly through WDW to rent our points. Just as I also accepted the financial risks of DVC ownership.  Should I have also paid for tavel insurance when I rented? Probably. But when you get on a plane and fly 25,000 feet in the air, are you not taking a risk? It's all a question of how much of a risk a person feels is REASONABLE vs the reward/savings of time or money on a vacation that they spend.
> 
> I leave to those who have contracts they signed with Davids and the experts out there who understand those contracts that specific problem. I of COURSE personally feel bad for EVERYONE,  renters, owners AND Davids who are losing and will lose here. After all, literally everyone on earth is hurting from this COVID nightmare. Vacations have been lost and people are stressed out. Some owners are losing points for personal family reservations, Disney is getting hurt, brokers are getting hurt etc etc. Some friends of mine who own at DVC have told me because they lost banked points that were due to expire soon they have lost points. Is someone 'reimbursing' them? No. What happens to owners who invested in DVC? What happens to cast Members who lose jobs? What happens to flights that were paid for and lost? This thing is a mess and for sure, some people are going to lose something.
> 
> While this is a board dealing with vacations to a place we all love, the REAL suffering out there are people who are sick or dying, people who have lost jobs and livelihoods lost. We must not over look these far more serious problems and accept that were all hurting.  That said, this a board about Disney vacations so I believe that when you sign a contract, you should be held to whatever you signed up for. If you took a risk in exchange for a discount, then is it really fair to complain if an unforeseen event comes up, and you are now held to that contract after you decided NOT to buy insurance?
> 
> I  personally did NOT buy travel insurance a huge family trip (though some family did) and was lucky enough that we had a great time with no problems, but IF this or some other disaster had come up to scuttle our travel plans, I was 100% mentally prepared and was willing to accept the financial loss because it was MY gamble that I took NOT to buy the insurance vs saving thousands on the trip. I knew the risks of renting points, I accepted that risk and if I had lost money because I chose NOT to pay for the insurance I was prepared to accept the loss.  Just my opinion..


Not an unpopular opinion. It just shows that you don’t understand how this process has worked essentially flawlessly for decades. Trip insurance likely doesn’t help. Most wont. And a global pandemic is something that no layperson ever saw as a real possibility.

So you can have your opinion. I fully understand that if I got sick and couldn’t go, then I’d have to eat the money. Or if I got a new job and wasn’t allowed to go, no problem. No problem at all.

But here we have a broker with a completely void contract who is not acting with consistency and is only acting in his best interest.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Pluto777 said:


> This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but here goes the "sorry folks, the moose for renting DVC points shoulda told ya" opinion (if any of you saw the old National Lampoon's "Vacation" with Chevy Chase you get the paraphrased joke).
> 
> Maybe many of you out there are like myself; but the first time I heard about 'renting points' to get a huge discount at WDW I was skeptical and wasn't sure if I even believed it was real. I was worried it might be a scam, what if we showed up (it was a huge family trip) after spending thousands and there was a problem? It almost sounded too good to be true - but the low price was too tempting. As it turned out for us, & probably many of you, it has been a fantastic cost saver for most of us who have saved thousands on vacations by renting DVC points vs cash stays through WDW direct.
> 
> I understood as soon as I read about renting DVC points that there WAS some risk when it came to cancellations compared to a cash stay, and that this was the the other side of the coin of the huge financial savings. Well, guess what? It seems that the risk has finally arrived. I sympathize with all those renters of points from a broker who did not buy insurance, but when you signed the contract, did you not know there was an element of risk versus paying more to book directly through Disney for cash? Did you carefully read the contract to rent points and accept the fact that you were getting a huge discount in exchange for giving up some of the cancellation policies of a cash stay?
> 
> I have been both a renter AND an owner, so I understand from both perspectives. While I never worked specifically with Davids, we rented points from other brokers and I have to say that there WAS an option to pay for insurance IN CASE of cancellation on the website we used. One family group took the insurance, the other did not. I don't know if Davids mentions insurance or not, but when I looked into using them to rent, I'm pretty sure I remember at least ASKING them about insurance.  Remember, the whole idea behind renting points is that you save a TON OF $$$$ vs a WDW cash stay.  In many cases we checked out, it was such a huge discount we we're suspicious and we DID inquire about travel insurance (and as I said some of us bought it).
> 
> Maybe I am a bit old school, but my philosophy is you don't get something for nothing. If you are paying $360 a night for a comparable room that is offered direct for $780 a night then IMO  have to be willing to accept certain things that you are NOT getting with that discount, OR you have to be WILLLING TO BUY ADDITIONAL INSURANCE protection.
> 
> Cash direct through WDW gives a what IMO are VERY generous cancellation terms. Yes you pay extra for it, but you are guaranteed by the "Mouse himself" that what you pay for with only what I believe is a 5 day cancellation notice. Can you REALLY argue you are entitled to the same protection that a person who paid premium rack rate to WDW directly should get when you spent only half that amount by renting DVC points and opting NOT to buy insurance protection?  Of COURSE I feel bad for any renter or owner affected by this mess - this is afterall a nightmare across the world and many people are losing far more than vacations and money. Heck, EVEN WDW cash ressies have that 5 day rule, so on SOME level there is ALWAYS going to be some element of risk (natural disasters, airline/travel problems, last minute illness, PANDEMICS etc) when you commit to a hugely expensive vacation - how much MORE so if you opt NOT to pay for travel insurance?
> 
> When you sign a contract I believe you MUST read the TERMS of that contract, and although I am not a lawyer, it was pretty clear to me that by renting DVC points and NOT paying the higher cash price directly to WDW we we're taking on some added risk vs a cash through WDW stay. Is there less risk from a broker vs an individual? I don't know. I suppose it depends on which broker used and which individual used. I do know though that the more $$ put on the table, whether its to buy OR rent DVC points, the more you risk losing if there is a 'bump in the road' for your vacation without travel insurance. As I said, I have NEVER used David's, but I have used other brokers and I have to say, I WAS just a little bit nervous that someone might get a last minute illness, a flight delay, bad weather etc etc. However I was WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT RISK because I saved about 60% off the cost of a cash booking directly through WDW to rent our points. Just as I also accepted the financial risks of DVC ownership.  Should I have also paid for tavel insurance when I rented? Probably. But when you get on a plane and fly 25,000 feet in the air, are you not taking a risk? It's all a question of how much of a risk a person feels is REASONABLE vs the reward/savings of time or money on a vacation that they spend.
> 
> I leave to those who have contracts they signed with Davids and the experts out there who understand those contracts that specific problem. I of COURSE personally feel bad for EVERYONE,  renters, owners AND Davids who are losing and will lose here. After all, literally everyone on earth is hurting from this COVID nightmare. Vacations have been lost and people are stressed out. Some owners are losing points for personal family reservations, Disney is getting hurt, brokers are getting hurt etc etc. Some friends of mine who own at DVC have told me because they lost banked points that were due to expire soon they have lost points. Is someone 'reimbursing' them? No. What happens to owners who invested in DVC? What happens to cast Members who lose jobs? What happens to flights that were paid for and lost? This thing is a mess and for sure, some people are going to lose something.
> 
> While this is a board dealing with vacations to a place we all love, the REAL suffering out there are people who are sick or dying, people who have lost jobs and livelihoods lost. We must not over look these far more serious problems and accept that were all hurting.  That said, this a board about Disney vacations so I believe that when you sign a contract, you should be held to whatever you signed up for. If you took a risk in exchange for a discount, then is it really fair to complain if an unforeseen event comes up, and you are now held to that contract after you decided NOT to buy insurance?
> 
> I  personally did NOT buy travel insurance a huge family trip (though some family did) and was lucky enough that we had a great time with no problems, but IF this or some other disaster had come up to scuttle our travel plans, I was 100% mentally prepared and was willing to accept the financial loss because it was MY gamble that I took NOT to buy the insurance vs saving thousands on the trip. I knew the risks of renting points, I accepted that risk and if I had lost money because I chose NOT to pay for the insurance I was prepared to accept the loss.  Just my opinion..



You are right it’s not a popular opinion but nonetheless it’s right but a lot of renters(not all) want to have the cake and eat it too.

I wonder if the same renters buy a stock and it suddenly tanks will they start complain too?


----------



## Disaseny

Pluto777 said:


> This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but here goes the "sorry folks, the moose for renting DVC points shoulda told ya" opinion (if any of you saw the old National Lampoon's "Vacation" with Chevy Chase you get the paraphrased joke).
> 
> Maybe many of you out there are like myself; but the first time I heard about 'renting points' to get a huge discount at WDW I was skeptical and wasn't sure if I even believed it was real. I was worried it might be a scam, what if we showed up (it was a huge family trip) after spending thousands and there was a problem? It almost sounded too good to be true - but the low price was too tempting. As it turned out for us, & probably many of you, it has been a fantastic cost saver for most of us who have saved thousands on vacations by renting DVC points vs cash stays through WDW direct.
> 
> I understood as soon as I read about renting DVC points that there WAS some risk when it came to cancellations compared to a cash stay, and that this was the the other side of the coin of the huge financial savings. Well, guess what? It seems that the risk has finally arrived. I sympathize with all those renters of points from a broker who did not buy insurance, but when you signed the contract, did you not know there was an element of risk versus paying more to book directly through Disney for cash? Did you carefully read the contract to rent points and accept the fact that you were getting a huge discount in exchange for giving up some of the cancellation policies of a cash stay?
> 
> I have been both a renter AND an owner, so I understand from both perspectives. While I never worked specifically with Davids, we rented points from other brokers and I have to say that there WAS an option to pay for insurance IN CASE of cancellation on the website we used. One family group took the insurance, the other did not. I don't know if Davids mentions insurance or not, but when I looked into using them to rent, I'm pretty sure I remember at least ASKING them about insurance.  Remember, the whole idea behind renting points is that you save a TON OF $$$$ vs a WDW cash stay.  In many cases we checked out, it was such a huge discount we we're suspicious and we DID inquire about travel insurance (and as I said some of us bought it).
> 
> Maybe I am a bit old school, but my philosophy is you don't get something for nothing. If you are paying $360 a night for a comparable room that is offered direct for $780 a night then IMO  have to be willing to accept certain things that you are NOT getting with that discount, OR you have to be WILLLING TO BUY ADDITIONAL INSURANCE protection.
> 
> Cash direct through WDW gives a what IMO are VERY generous cancellation terms. Yes you pay extra for it, but you are guaranteed by the "Mouse himself" that what you pay for with only what I believe is a 5 day cancellation notice. Can you REALLY argue you are entitled to the same protection that a person who paid premium rack rate to WDW directly should get when you spent only half that amount by renting DVC points and opting NOT to buy insurance protection?  Of COURSE I feel bad for any renter or owner affected by this mess - this is afterall a nightmare across the world and many people are losing far more than vacations and money. Heck, EVEN WDW cash ressies have that 5 day rule, so on SOME level there is ALWAYS going to be some element of risk (natural disasters, airline/travel problems, last minute illness, PANDEMICS etc) when you commit to a hugely expensive vacation - how much MORE so if you opt NOT to pay for travel insurance?
> 
> When you sign a contract I believe you MUST read the TERMS of that contract, and although I am not a lawyer, it was pretty clear to me that by renting DVC points and NOT paying the higher cash price directly to WDW we we're taking on some added risk vs a cash through WDW stay. Is there less risk from a broker vs an individual? I don't know. I suppose it depends on which broker used and which individual used. I do know though that the more $$ put on the table, whether its to buy OR rent DVC points, the more you risk losing if there is a 'bump in the road' for your vacation without travel insurance. As I said, I have NEVER used David's, but I have used other brokers and I have to say, I WAS just a little bit nervous that someone might get a last minute illness, a flight delay, bad weather etc etc. However I was WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT RISK because I saved about 60% off the cost of a cash booking directly through WDW to rent our points. Just as I also accepted the financial risks of DVC ownership.  Should I have also paid for tavel insurance when I rented? Probably. But when you get on a plane and fly 25,000 feet in the air, are you not taking a risk? It's all a question of how much of a risk a person feels is REASONABLE vs the reward/savings of time or money on a vacation that they spend.
> 
> I leave to those who have contracts they signed with Davids and the experts out there who understand those contracts that specific problem. I of COURSE personally feel bad for EVERYONE,  renters, owners AND Davids who are losing and will lose here. After all, literally everyone on earth is hurting from this COVID nightmare. Vacations have been lost and people are stressed out. Some owners are losing points for personal family reservations, Disney is getting hurt, brokers are getting hurt etc etc. Some friends of mine who own at DVC have told me because they lost banked points that were due to expire soon they have lost points. Is someone 'reimbursing' them? No. What happens to owners who invested in DVC? What happens to cast Members who lose jobs? What happens to flights that were paid for and lost? This thing is a mess and for sure, some people are going to lose something.
> 
> While this is a board dealing with vacations to a place we all love, the REAL suffering out there are people who are sick or dying, people who have lost jobs and livelihoods lost. We must not over look these far more serious problems and accept that were all hurting.  That said, this a board about Disney vacations so I believe that when you sign a contract, you should be held to whatever you signed up for. If you took a risk in exchange for a discount, then is it really fair to complain if an unforeseen event comes up, and you are now held to that contract after you decided NOT to buy insurance?
> 
> I  personally did NOT buy travel insurance a huge family trip (though some family did) and was lucky enough that we had a great time with no problems, but IF this or some other disaster had come up to scuttle our travel plans, I was 100% mentally prepared and was willing to accept the financial loss because it was MY gamble that I took NOT to buy the insurance vs saving thousands on the trip. I knew the risks of renting points, I accepted that risk and if I had lost money because I chose NOT to pay for the insurance I was prepared to accept the loss.  Just my opinion..


I agree with you to a point. yes, I saved money but I also bought trip insurance in case *I *needed to cancel. The issue comes is that *I  *did not cancel. Something happened that closed the resort. Now I paid cash to DAvid's for a non existent reservation, and he is telling me I have two choices: accept his travel credit or keep my nonexistent resetvation. None of this is in my current contract. The contract says if accommodations are not available at time of arrival, due to the owner, I get a refund. Yes, I understand that the owner personally did not cancel the reservation, that Disney did. But he can't tell me that the owner did not cancel, and then tell the owner they need to give the 70% back to him, and claim that per  a section of his contract with an owner, because they allow dvc to make decisions on  the behalf of the owner, therefore the owner is liable for what Disney decided.
He  is also telling me that the travel credit has no CASH value.WTH??? I paid him cash, of course it has cash value! It's not like he handed me a coupon for a free reservation. I paid him.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I would be really happy to see the names of the wonderful insurance companies you speak of.  To what I have read almost none are paying off over C19.  My understanding, since I never bought the coverage since it really did't cover anything (last year traveling with 7 months pregnant dil) is even Disney insurance that directly links to Disney is no longer covering C19


If you read all of this thread you see comments from Renters that have been covered by insurance and have received payouts. It is available.


----------



## Cyberc1978

yankeesfan123 said:


> Not an unpopular opinion. It just shows that you don’t understand how this process has worked essentially flawlessly for decades. Trip insurance likely doesn’t help. Most wont. And a global pandemic is something that no layperson ever saw as a real possibility.
> 
> So you can have your opinion. I fully understand that if I got sick and couldn’t go, then I’d have to eat the money. Or if I got a new job and wasn’t allowed to go, no problem. No problem at all.
> 
> But here we have a broker will a completely void contract who is not acting with consistency and is only acting in his best interest.


Does not matter that things have worked flawlessly for years or not. You always need to plan for the unexpected. If you don’t you have to be a man and suck it up. 

I’ve been traveling for more than 20 years not once did I go without insurance.

I’ve looked it up early in and at least one travelers insurance covered. You need to buy a CFAR. I would however expect that they at least won’t cover Covid-19 anymore.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Disaseny said:


> I agree with you to a point. yes, I saved money but I also bought trip insurance in case *I *needed to cancel. The issue comes is that *I  *did not cancel. Something happened that closed the resort. Now I paid cash to DAvid's for a non existent reservation, and he is telling me I have two choices: accept his travel credit or keep my nonexistent resetvation. None of this is in my current contract. The contract says I get a refund if accommodations are not available at time of arrival, due to the owner, I get a refund. Yes, I understand that the owner personally did not cancel the reservation, that Disney did. But he can't tell me that the owner did not cancel, and then tell the owner they need to give the 70% back to him, and claim that let a section of his contract with an owner, because they allow dv C to make deductions on the behalf of the owner, therefore the owner is liable for what Disney decided.
> He  is also telling me that the travel credit has no CASH value.WTH??? I paid home cash, of course it has cash value! It's not like he handed me a coupon for a free reservation. I paid him.



I’m not condoning David’s actions or behavior and I wouldn’t use him.

the pandemic is no ones fault that’s why you always need the CFAR insurance. At least some covered if they dont in the future you as a renter need to absorbe that risk. Absorbing the risk is part of the risk you take to save money.

No risk no glory or no risk no saving.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Cyberc1978 said:


> You are right it’s not a popular opinion but nonetheless it’s right but a lot of renters(not all) want to have the cake and eat it too.
> 
> I wonder if the same renters buy a stock and it suddenly tanks will they start complain too?


You could have easily named the wonderful insurance company that would have covered this, but you didn't did you?
Even policies advertised to cover 'anything' and 'everything' have refused coverage.  Are you posting about their keeping money for failing to cover what they promised?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

McCrae said:


> If you read all of this thread you see comments from Renters that have been covered by insurance and have received payouts. It is available.


I have read nearly every post.  Please feel free to educate me.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

My insurance was ironically not complicated by COVID-19, but by David’s themselves and their backing off their no refunds policy.


----------



## Yinn

Grumpy by Birth said:


> If you're able to use the extended points for yourself or rent them to someone else privately, I think you might have to return the 70% to David's to avoid running afoul of "double dipping" rules.  Characterizing using the extended points as going on a FREE vacation would seem to violate that rule.



Depends on the situation.

1) There were some who weren’t paid - even though the resort was open. Some checked in, some didn’t. These people fulfilled their contract but weren’t paid the remaining 30%.

2) There were some who got advanced cancellation requests, when the resort was not yet declared closed. These people fulfilled their contract but weren’t paid the remaining 30%.

But if you’re in the bucket where the resort was closed, and you now have your points. Then I would tend to agree with you. Although, I’d tell Davids to pay me the 30% before I’d reschedule.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Cyberc1978 said:


> Does not matter that things have worked flawlessly for years or not. You always need to plan for the unexpected. If you don’t you have to be a man and suck it up.
> 
> I’ve been traveling for more than 20 years not once did I go without insurance.
> 
> I’ve looked it up early in and at least one travelers insurance covered. You need to buy a CFAR. I would however expect that they at least won’t cover Covid-19 anymore.


Are you aware CFAR policies are prohibited in some states?
That they are not paying off either?
Or to the extent they do anything they require someone to actually be sick with C19?
Are you an insurance agent?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

It’s silly IMO to go down this whole renters should have known better, owners should have known better road again without talking about how David had established himself as the leader in this space building a relatively huge business, also without considering the risk or preparing for it.

As the intermediary who grew himself by promising easy transactions and low risk (for a fee), that’s where I place most of the responsibility.


----------



## lawboy2001

Pluto777 said:


> Cash direct through WDW gives a what IMO are VERY generous cancellation terms. Yes you pay extra for it, but you are guaranteed by the "Mouse himself" that what you pay for with only what I believe is a 5 day cancellation notice. Can you REALLY argue you are entitled to the same protection that a person who paid premium rack rate to WDW directly should get when you spent only half that amount by renting DVC points and opting NOT to buy insurance protection?  rt etc etc. Some friends of mine who own at DVC have told me because they lost banked points that were due to expire soon they have lost points. Is someone 'reimbursing' them? No. What happens to owners who invested in DVC? What happens to cast Members who lose jobs? What happens to flights that were paid for and lost? This thing is a mess and for sure, some people are going to lose something.
> 
> I  personally did NOT buy travel insurance a huge family trip (though some family did) and was lucky enough that we had a great time with no problems, but IF this or some other disaster had come up to scuttle our travel plans, I was 100% mentally prepared and was willing to accept the financial loss because it was MY gamble that I took NOT to buy the insurance vs saving thousands on the trip. I knew the risks of renting points, I accepted that risk and if I had lost money because I chose NOT to pay for the insurance I was prepared to accept the loss.  Just my opinion..



The difference in this case is that the renter isn't cancelling, the resort is closed so the reservation is cancelled for the renter, and they cannot go on the trip they booked.  It's not the same situation as someone cancelling because they lost their job; someone in travel group died; they are getting divorced etc.  

As for insurance, does travel insurance cover this situation?  I think some posters have indicated it does not. If insurance will pay out for this, then maybe I agree with you, renters risk, they should have bought insurance, but if not, I disagree.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I have read nearly every post.  Please feel free to educate me.


Read them all.

Buy insurance next time.


----------



## McCrae

lawboy2001 said:


> The difference in this case is that the renter isn't cancelling, the resort is closed so the reservation is cancelled for the renter, and they cannot go on the trip they booked.  It's not the same situation as someone cancelling because they lost their job; someone in travel group died; they are getting divorced etc.
> 
> As for insurance, does travel insurance cover this situation?  I think some posters have indicated it does not. If insurance will pay out for this, then maybe I agree with you, renters risk, they should have bought insurance, but if not, I disagree.



Not all will do, but some do.


----------



## McCrae

.


----------



## Cyberc1978

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Are you aware CFAR policies are prohibited in some states?
> That they are not paying off either?
> Or to the extent they do anything they require someone to actually be sick with C19?
> Are you an insurance agent?


No I’m not aware. I’m located in Europe.

Insurance agent  sometimes is wish but no I’m a banker.

early in with the virus I did a google search for CFAR and the first I found I looked up all the terms and read them. They didn’t exclude pandemics or similar. To be honest I dont recall the name.


----------



## starry_solo

So as a FYI, there are different policies in Europe than in the US. Perhaps some policies in Europe cover pandemics but we have yet to find any, including CFAR policies, that cover pandemics in the USA.


----------



## LAX

McCrae said:


> Read them all.
> 
> Buy insurance next time.



More importantly, buy the RIGHT insurance next time.

LAX


----------



## Cyberc1978

starry_solo said:


> So as a FYI, there are different policies in Europe than in the US. Perhaps some policies in Europe cover pandemics but we have yet to find any, including CFAR policies, that cover pandemics in the USA.


That’s true but I looked up the ones in the US.


----------



## McCrae

starry_solo said:


> So as a FYI, there are different policies in Europe than in the US. Perhaps some policies in Europe cover pandemics but we have yet to find any, including CFAR policies, that cover pandemics in the USA.



You might find this article useful.

https://www.aarp.org/travel/travel-tips/safety/info-2020/insurance-coronavirus-coverage.html


----------



## LAX

starry_solo said:


> So as a FYI, there are different policies in Europe than in the US. Perhaps some policies in Europe cover pandemics but we have yet to find any, including CFAR policies, that cover pandemics in the USA.



This is veering way OT, but some of you are overcomplicating this. If you somehow can't find an insurance company to offer a policy that covers your DVC rental for any reason, then just book direct with Disney! The difference you pay is a form of "insurance." You will get your money back if another pandemic ends up closing the resorts. Heck, you can cancel up until a few days before check-in even if you just don't feel like going any more.

The obvious dilemma is whether you are willing to pay the difference (usually not a small amount) in exchange for the protection. Like I mentioned many pages ago, renting DVC has risks and ALL renters need to be comfortable with taking on the risks, or at least be willing to take some measures to mitigate those risks.

LAX


----------



## DGsAtBLT

If it turns out that renters are overall successful with chargebacks, seems to me that's just as good of a cover your "rear" measure as an insurance that covers this scenario, a huge benefit of buying stuff with credit cards. Again that points to the intermediary as the one who did a poor job of considering the risks of renting points out.


----------



## Noodlez

starry_solo said:


> So as a FYI, there are different policies in Europe than in the US. Perhaps some policies in Europe cover pandemics but we have yet to find any, including CFAR policies, that cover pandemics in the USA.



I’m also based in Europe. I’d never heard of CFAR policies before this situation but I always have annual travel insurance and add on as many eventualities as I can to cover whatever may happen. I started doing this as a lot of people (a few years ago) found they weren’t covered for ash clouds. I wanted to make sure I was covered for things out of my control, and it wasn’t much more to do so.

The insurance I have wouldn’t cover if I just decided to cancel it myself, but it covers most other eventualities. Someone asked people to name companies, so mine is https://www.insureandgo.com/. Obviously, you can’t take it out for Covid now, but no insurance will let you cover after the fact.

Edited to add: I’m not in any way trying to promote that company, or even say how good they are. There was an earlier post saying that no one was willing to name companies so I have done.


----------



## Pluto777

As I mentioned in my prior opinion, I never worked in any way with David's specifically - either as a renter or owner, but another broker which I used (I am not able to post the name here) does have insurance that SOME of my family paid for. They did and do offer a "cancel for cancel reason" policy "no questions asked" IF you want to pay for it which some members of my family insisted on signing up for. They never used it, but it gave them piece of mind which they said made it worth it for them, and I have no doubt they would have given me a LOT of "I told you so" criticism had a snag come up and i was forced to change plans without insurance. - and maybe they would have been 100% right to do so. Again I am not aware of how it works over at David's.

As to the choice I made not to take the CFAR policy, I did not sign up for it because I (perhaps foolishly)  viewed it as a very remote possibility. It was pure luck that I turned out to be correct, and I do sympathize with those who have lost money in this mess. It was a bit of a gamble, but I accepted that because I felt the risk was remote. Had things not worked out for me I was absolutely 100% prepared financially and mentally to accept the financial loss just as I was when I took an even greater financial risk by buying into DVC.

I have cancelled vacations and had to pay airline 'penalty fees' of thousands of dollars because I did not have CFAR insurance. I did not get angry, but simply took the hit and moved on.  I saw the money spent on the airfare and rented points as 'already spent money' whether we went or not. Again just recently and for the 2nd year in aa row I lost some money on plane ticket 'penalty fees' that I did not insure and I viewed the penalty itself as a type of insurance on the tickets, so again I paid up and moved on.  I always try to familiarize myself on the cancellation policy of any trip/vacation I take, the likelihood of a cancellation and factor it in to decide if I should insure or not. So yes, it was 100% a type of gamble when I rented points and didn't take CFAR insurance from the unnamed broker I decided to use and that was my original point. I accepted that risk as part of the savings and that was it.


Again, I never worked with David's and so I really can't comment on how they are handling things one way or the other or even what their policy is. However I would say that in my opinion (for whatever thats worth!) as a buyer for any large cost trip, you should always check such things and decide if and what travel insurance you need.


----------



## CanAdianDad

McCrae said:


> Read them all.
> 
> Buy insurance next time.


As you love stating ”buy insurance” you know owners could do the same to protect their points should they expire in the event that they weren’t able to provide the agreed upon reservation And are due to provide a refund as they did not live up to their end of the contract by closing the resort. I think that both owners and renters can easily point the finger at David’s in this case as he promised protection to both sides. As most can attest, insurance is not the answer for renters.


----------



## Dracula

Bowen Family said:


> Can anyone think of any reason David’s would resist contacting the owner about deferring my reservation for 1 year? That’s what I’ve asked them to do and am awaiting a response. Our 1 week AKL stay is mid-May 2020, so technically not yet cancelled, but I want to be pro-active about asking the owner to try on June 1, 2020 to re-book our 1 week stay for May 2021. Seems a very simple way to resolve this, as the # of points and booking season are the same. No voucher, no refunds, just a deferral. Any thoughts on how David’s will respond. Because this is the only solution I’m interested in. If they refuse to act as my “intermediary” on this, we’ll just initiate a chargeback. Hope it doesn’t come to that.


The solution you are suggesting is not optimum, in David's eyes, for a few reasons:
- Mid-May DVC reservations have not yet been canceled, and according to your contract, the reservation cannot be canceled or changed. You would need to wait for Disney to cancel it - they are doing it approximately one week ahead.
- A reservation next May can be a different number of points, and points are $1 more expensive this year anyway. So an even exchange may not be possible, David would like you to redeem the voucher and pay the difference.
- The earliest the reservation can be re-booked is mid-June, and this is only if the owner has AKL points. Otherwise it is mid-October, with no guarantee of availability.
- As other people mentioned, the points may not be usable next year. David is currently asking owners to verify point status after cancelation by Disney - doing it before is not always obvious.
- From David's standpoint, if the owner's points can be re-rented, he would rather re-rent them now to someone else and book you later with someone else's fresh points - booking you with the exact same points, even if possible, may not produce the best match.
- Finally, if both you and the owner realize how easy is to get in touch, make reservations and change them, would you still go through David next time? You are jeopardizing his business model.


----------



## LAX

CanAdianDad said:


> As you love stating ”buy insurance” you know owners could do the same to protect their points should they expire in the event that they weren’t able to provide the agreed upon reservation And are due to provide a refund as they did not live up to their end of the contract by closing the resort. I think that both owners and renters can easily point the finger at David’s in this case as he promised protection to both sides. As most can attest, insurance is not the answer for renters.



That "insurance" would be David's from owners' perspective. The commission he makes should be more than just match-making.

LAX


----------



## Disaseny

Pluto777 said:


> As I mentioned in my prior opinion, I never worked in any way with David's specifically - either as a renter or owner, but another broker which I used (I am not able to post the name here) does have insurance that SOME of my family paid for. They did and do offer a "cancel for cancel reason" policy "no questions asked" IF you want to pay for it which some members of my family insisted on signing up for. They never used it, but it gave them piece of mind which they said made it worth it for them, and I have no doubt they would have given me a LOT of "I told you so" criticism had a snag come up and i was forced to change plans without insurance. - and maybe they would have been 100% right to do so. Again I am not aware of how it works over at David's.
> 
> As to the choice I made not to take the CFAR policy, I did not sign up for it because I (perhaps foolishly)  viewed it as a very remote possibility. It was pure luck that I turned out to be correct, and I do sympathize with those who have lost money in this mess. It was a bit of a gamble, but I accepted that because I felt the risk was remote. Had things not worked out for me I was absolutely 100% prepared financially and mentally to accept the financial loss just as I was when I took an even greater financial risk by buying into DVC.
> 
> I have cancelled vacations and had to pay airline 'penalty fees' of thousands of dollars because I did not have CFAR insurance. I did not get angry, but simply took the hit and moved on.  I saw the money spent on the airfare and rented points as 'already spent money' whether we went or not. Again just recently and for the 2nd year in aa row I lost some money on plane ticket 'penalty fees' that I did not insure and I viewed the penalty itself as a type of insurance on the tickets, so again I paid up and moved on.  I always try to familiarize myself on the cancellation policy of any trip/vacation I take, the likelihood of a cancellation and factor it in to decide if I should insure or not. So yes, it was 100% a type of gamble when I rented points and didn't take CFAR insurance from the unnamed broker I decided to use and that was my original point. I accepted that risk as part of the savings and that was it.
> 
> 
> Again, I never worked with David's and so I really can't comment on how they are handling things one way or the other or even what their policy is. However I would say that in my opinion (for whatever thats worth!) as a buyer for any large cost trip, you should always check such things and decide if and what travel insurance you need.


I am okay with losing the money as it was only me going for 4 nights and less than 1k.....I am still going for a chargeback, but if that fails, I won't take their travel voucher. I just don't trust the company any longer. From the way he botched this and their deleting of negative comments and reviews on Facebook, it shows me what type of company they really are. He needs to be able to take the good and the bad.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Bowen Family said:


> I presume David’s would know status of these points, and obviously that’s out of theirs and the owner’s hands. I’m hoping that with the policy change yesterday from DVC, expired points becomes less a problem for re-booking (though obviously still a possibility that I’d have to accept).


I don't presume that at all. His actions IMO do not support this knowledge.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Cyberc1978 said:


> Does not matter that things have worked flawlessly for years or not. You always need to plan for the unexpected. If you don’t you have to be a man and suck it up.
> 
> I’ve been traveling for more than 20 years not once did I go without insurance.
> 
> I’ve looked it up early in and at least one travelers insurance covered. You need to buy a CFAR. I would however expect that they at least won’t cover Covid-19 anymore.


Hi. The vast majority of insurances do not cover this. Just like business insurances. Just not covered under a typical insurance policy.

And actually, now that COVID-19 is foreseeable, many contracts sold now WOULD automatically cover it.


----------



## LAX

cmrdgrs said:


> I don't presume that at all. His actions IMO do not support this knowledge.



I believe I have read somewhere that David is a DVC owner himself. Thus, I think he should have at least decent knowledge of the system. In fact, he might even know the system so well that he can use it to his/his business' advantage, which doesn't necessarily align with the best interests of other owners or renters.

LAX


----------



## McCrae

CanAdianDad said:


> As you love stating ”buy insurance” you know owners could do the same to protect their points should they expire in the event that they weren’t able to provide the agreed upon reservation And are due to provide a refund as they did not live up to their end of the contract by closing the resort. I think that both owners and renters can easily point the finger at David’s in this case as he promised protection to both sides. As most can attest, insurance is not the answer for renters.



The contract the renter signed accepted a no refunds, or changes clause. This is why they needed insurance if they were not happy with this risk. It’s harsh, but renters could have taken steps to remove this risk and have to take responsibility  for not doing it. 

Owners risk Is different to renters because they signed a different contract with the broker. Yes insurance is an option an owner should consider. It’s likely to be a different type of insurance than the renter, probably a policy covering critical illness and or loss of income. If as an Owner you don’t protect yourself you can only blame you, no one else.


----------



## cmrdgrs

LAX said:


> I believe I have read somewhere that David is a DVC owner himself. Thus, I think he should have at least decent knowledge of the system. In fact, he might even know the system so well that he can use it to his/his business' advantage, which doesn't necessarily align with the best interests of other owners or renters.
> 
> LAX


I don't doubt that David has a very good working knowledge of the DVC system.

What I meant in response to the OP was I'm not sure if David does or does not know, for every reservation made, what type of points were used (i.e. banked, borrowed or current UY, as well as, home resort used to book from the owner).

I say this because someone earlier in the thread posted an email from David asking for specifics from the owner about the points the owner could use to rebook and asking for these details.

I could be completely wrong, but it almost seems that a-point-was-a-point-was-a-point in certain situations (probably when booked in the 7 month window) when the reservation was booked.  If it wasn't that way, David might be able to offer better and more flexible solutions and wouldn't be just holding everyone hostage with the terrible terms of his voucher.

Again, I know nothing about his operation, I could be completely wrong about his software and the type of reports he can pull out of his software.

If I was a broker, caught up in all of this, I wouldn't be doing most of the things that David is doing.  IMO his actions are damaging his reputation and his business.  It seems that he has lost the trust of his customers and owners who rent points with him.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I don't doubt that David has a very good working knowledge of the DVC system.
> 
> What I meant in response to the OP was I'm not sure if David does or does not know, for every reservation made, what type of points were used (i.e. banked, borrowed or current UY, as well as, home resort used to book from the owner).
> 
> I say this because someone earlier in the thread posted an email from David asking for specifics from the owner about the points the owner could use to rebook and asking for these details.
> 
> I could be completely wrong, but it almost seems that a-point-was-a-point-was-a-point in certain situations (probably when booked in the 7 month window) when the reservation was booked.  If it wasn't that way, David might be able to offer better and more flexible solutions and wouldn't be just holding everyone hostage with the terrible terms of his voucher.
> 
> Again, I know nothing about his operation, I could be completely wrong about his software and the type of reports he can pull out of his software.
> 
> If I was a broker, caught up in all of this, I wouldn't be doing most of the things that David is doing.  IMO his actions are damaging his reputation and his business.  It seems that he has lost the trust of his customers and owners who rent points with him.



I can tell you they do know exactly what the status of the points.  We have to give them all that information

He may not want to disclose the information with a renter because it’s not really part of his contract with them.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> I can tell you they do know exactly what the status of the points.  We have to give them all that information
> 
> He may not want to disclose the information with a renter because it’s not really part of his contract with them.


Could be.  As I said, I don't know.  I'm sure he asks for this information at the time of booking, maybe he can, maybe he can't produce reports on the stats.  I certainly do not understand his actions at all.

Hard to say why he is doing what he is doing.  His actions make sense to him and I guess for him that's all that's important.


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> The contract the renter signed accepted a no refunds, or changes clause. This is why they needed insurance if they were not happy with this risk. It’s harsh, but renters could have taken steps to remove this risk and have to take responsibility  for not doing it.


The renters paid for a room type at a specific resort for specific dates.  If they can't check in to the room because it is no longer available, then David owes them a REFUND not a voucher.  David's for years marketed his no risk service and protection of the renter from unscrupulous owners cancelling their reservation (either willingly or through default), but now he is scrambling.  He is obstructing people from solving their own issues which is the opposite of what a broker (or travel agent - not sure what he is really) should be doing.  

As for a no refunds contract, David's breached that contract the minute Disney closed the resort.  Therefore, the chargebacks should go through.  Just my opinion but the contract is breached or "frustrated" learned that word on this thread.

I have several rentals this year and believe that the onus of the impact of the resort closures is on me the owner.  If I rented you an apartment and the building burned down before you moved in, I would owe you back your rent and security deposit.  If you were already there, I couldn't collect rent from you while the apartment was not there.

Putting all the responsibility on the renters to get insurance makes no sense IMHO.  This is not a renter needing to cancel a vacation.  This is a resort closure.


----------



## Amymouse13

Honestly this pot stirrer was just trying to do that... In my case both owners cancelled my reservations (one I believe was trying to rebook before this voucher scheme, but that is gone now).  Cancelled reservation = refund.  I underlined that part of contract in my chargeback.  Heck for one David's was nice enough to put that in an email (was one that planned to rebook me).  I'm guessing finding insurance for covid-19 from now one will be as likely as a unicorn (and probably any pandemic or epidemic)


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> The renters paid for a room type at a specific resort for specific dates.  If they can't check in to the room because it is no longer available, then David owes them a REFUND not a voucher.  David's for years marketed his no risk service and protection of the renter from unscrupulous owners cancelling their reservation (either willingly or through default), but now he is scrambling.  He is obstructing people from solving their own issues which is the opposite of what a broker (or travel agent - not sure what he is really) should be doing.
> 
> As for a no refunds contract, David's breached that contract the minute Disney closed the resort.  Therefore, the chargebacks should go through.  Just my opinion but the contract is breached or "frustrated" learned that word on this thread.
> 
> I have several rentals this year and believe that the onus of the impact of the resort closures is on me the owner.  If I rented you an apartment and the building burned down before you moved in, I would owe you back your rent and security deposit.  If you were already there, I couldn't collect rent from you while the apartment was not there.
> 
> Putting all the responsibility on the renters to get insurance makes no sense  IMHO.  This is not a renter needing to cancel a vacation.  This is a resort closure.


The contract the renter signed with David’s has nothing to do with the Owners, it’s between the renters and David’s. . Insurance was available, it was a choice not to take it.

It’s far from clear that credit card charge backs will be successful. It has been mentioned on this thread that a PayPal did not side with a renter over this issue.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Grumpy by Birth said:


> If you're able to use the extended points for yourself or rent them to someone else privately, I think you might have to return the 70% to David's to avoid running afoul of "double dipping" rules.  Characterizing using the extended points as going on a FREE vacation would seem to violate that rule.





McCrae said:


> There is no such rule.


Poor choice of words.  I didn't mean to imply that DVC had a no double dipping "rule."  I was referring to an element of timeshare laws that others here have referred to.  

Before anyone points out that there's no such law, I admit that I'm only aware of it because some random person on the internet posted about it here.


----------



## disneypharm

McCrae said:


> The contract the renter signed accepted a no refunds, or changes clause. This is why they needed insurance if they were not happy with this risk. It’s harsh, but renters could have taken steps to remove this risk and have to take responsibility  for not doing it.


You and a few owners in this thread need to stop blaming the renters for this mess!!  Most renters knew that the contract is non-refundable as long as the accommodation was available.  Most renters have bought trip insurance (from US and not UK which some seem to have coverage for pandemic - as stated by some posts here) that now conveniently claim that a pandemic is not covered.   The renter's contract clearly states that if accommodation is not available, a refund will be provided.   No one in their right mind is willing to pay for a accommodation if they thought that there is a possibility that their room might not be available.  
Now, Davids wants renters to sign a contract that gives them no protection in case of no availability/cancellation.  "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancellations or rebooking will be permitted. "    
It seems Disney is now trying to work with owners who might be losing points, so there is a greater chance for them to be able to reuse the points that they have received some payment for (70% or whatever that is!),  so hope more owners are willing to help the renters (I know Davids doesn't allow this! but for others who have rented privately, then maybe they can now) instead of them thinking of re-renting the points or telling them to get insurance!


----------



## suemom2kay

From when I almost used David's to rent my points...

This electronic agreement is made ##### by and between ###### and ##### (together 'DVC Owner') and David's Vacation Club Rentals ('Intermediary').
The DVC Owner requests assistance from the Intermediary for the purpose of finding and managing guests in exchange for an agreed price per rented point payable to the DVC Owner and an agreed commission per rented point payable to the Intermediary.
The DVC Owner and the Intermediary acknowledge that they are completely familiar with the terminology used by the Disney Vacation Club and are fully familiar with the operations and the rules and regulations of the Disney Vacation Club and neither will rely on the other for guidance regarding policies or procedures of the Disney Vacation Club.
The number of points made available for rental by the DVC Owner under this agreement is set out below. The Intermediary has no responsibility for any points not rented to guests during the specified rental year or for any points which expire for any reason whatsoever prior to being rented. This agreement shall cease to be applicable with respect to Intermediary's responsibility to supply DVC Owner with guests seeking rental opportunities after the full number of points available for rental in the specified rental year have been rented or after the end of such specified rental year (with respect to any unrented points). A new Intermediary Agreement may be entered into by the parties after all points available for rental have been rented or the specified rental year has ended.
The Intermediary agrees to be responsible for:
Supplying the DVC Owner with guests who are seeking rental opportunities, as available to Intermediary
Contacting Disney Vacation Club's Owner Services to check availability for guests
Contacting the DVC Owner with eligible guests' rental inquiries
Collecting funds from the guest for a reservation made by the DVC Owner for such guest
Creating and receiving an agreed rental agreement, in form approved by Intermediary, from a reserving guest
_Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in_
Ensuring that a guest's reservation is confirmed to the guest
Providing the DVC Owner with a credit card or other financial information from the guest if the guest elects to add a dining plan, ticket package or other Disney Vacation Plan optional add-on to enable processing of such add-on request by the DVC Owner

The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:
Providing the Intermediary with full details on how many points are available for rental in the specified rental year, as noted below
Advising the Intermediary which Home Resort the points belong to, as noted below
Advising the Intermediary which year that the points belong to, as noted below
Advising the Intermediary whether and how many points may be banked or borrowed in order to secure reservations in the specified rental year
_Keeping maintenance fees and mortgages payable by the DVC Owner current at all times_
_Keeping DVC Owner's membership in the Disney Vacation Club current and active so as not to adversely affect any active reservations or potential reservations during the specified rental year_
_Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner_
*Maintaining an active PayPal account* with which to receive payment for funds collected by Intermediary with respect to guest reservations
Obtaining a confirmation from Disney Vacation Club with respect to each guest reservation using the information provided by Intermediary to DVC Owner with respect to that guest and then sending that reservation confirmation electronically to Intermediary
Processing all reserved guests' requests for optional add-ons and for specific room requests with Disney Vacation Club and/or Walt Disney Company ("Disney"). A copy of all email confirmations from the Disney Vacation Club and/or Disney with respect to such add-ons must be forwarded to Intermediary for further forwarding to the guest in question.
Processing payment for guests' optional add-on requests using a credit card/financial information obtained by Intermediary from the guest and provided to DVC Owner. DVC Owner will use such credit card/financial information only for the express purpose of processing the add-on requests with Disney Vacation Club and/or Walt Disney Company ("Disney") and not for any other purpose and will otherwise keep such information strictly confidential.

_The DVC Owner further agrees and promises:_
_Not to list for sale, and not to list for rental with another rental agent, the points covered by active reservations or available for rental hereunder during the specified rental year_
_To keep all Disney Vacation Club maintenance fees, dues and assessments current_
_To keep all mortgages with respect to the DVC Owner's Disney Vacation Club property current_
_To keep the DVC Owner's membership in the Disney Vacation Club in good standing_

_The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary *and a guest *with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner_ under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs.
The DVC Owner hereby agrees to indemnify Intermediary from and in respect of all losses, costs, damages and claims suffered or incurred by Intermediary as a result of the DVC Owner failing to fulfill any responsibility or comply with any obligation of DVC Owner hereunder.
_This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the *Province of Ontario* and the laws of Canada applicable therein._ All parties hereto agree to submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Ontario with respect to any disputes relating to, or legal actions brought in respect of, any matters under this agreement.
The DVC Owner represents and warrants that the following information is complete and accurate with respect to the DVC Owner:

So the owner providing restitution to David's "and a guest."  Would this allow the owner's to reimburse the guests without fear of David's coming after them?  I don't even know if his own contract would allow him to "go after" an owner anyway.


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> The contract the renter signed with David’s has nothing to do with the Owners, it’s between the renters and David’s. . Insurance was available, it was a choice not to take it.


Correct.  But David was in breach of his own contract as soon as Disney cancelled the reservation.  The owner's have an obligation to David, but that is a whole other discussion and from his contract it is vague if David has a leg to stand on.


> It’s far from clear that credit card charge backs will be successful. It has been mentioned on this thread that a PayPal did not side with a renter over this issue.


Paypal prohibits timeshare transactions including rentals.  Which further begs David's corporate character into question since he requires a Paypal account for his owners.  Not surprised Paypal is no help in light of this violation of their terms.  I can't see why CC chargebacks won't go through since the product purchased is not being provided.  This is in no way the same as a renter cancelling a reservation due to illness, injury, or other issue.  Blaming the renter for not getting insurance has nothing to do with David's obligation to refund due to his breach of the contract for a specific room type at a specific resort on specific dates.


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## suemom2kay

Just to add....

If I Book BCV with current Disney World Sun and Fun Promotion, I can get a 1 bedroom villa for $584 + tax per night.

David's Point Rental = $3515
Disney's Cash Ressie = $3285

He is pricing himself right out of business.  If his unscrupulous business practices don't get him, his price gouging will.  RIP David's


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## ScubaCat

suemom2kay said:


> Just to add....
> 
> If I Book BCV with current Disney World Sun and Fun Promotion, I can get a 1 bedroom villa for $584 + tax per night.
> 
> David's Point Rental = $3515
> Disney's Cash Ressie = $3285
> 
> He is pricing himself right out of business.  If his unscrupulous business practices don't get him, his price gouging will.  RIP David's


Rental prices are fair. It's what the points are worth to the owners as well. The points charts don't necessarily line up with demand, and the hotels yield depending on such. In fact, summer is a bit less points next year. (and did I mention free parking??)


----------



## Sandisw

suemom2kay said:


> Just to add....
> 
> If I Book BCV with current Disney World Sun and Fun Promotion, I can get a 1 bedroom villa for $584 + tax per night.
> 
> David's Point Rental = $3515
> Disney's Cash Ressie = $3285
> 
> He is pricing himself right out of business.  If his unscrupulous business practices don't get him, his price gouging will.  RIP David's



Now add the cost of CFAR insurance and renting is no longer attractive at those rates.

I still believe rental prices will need to come down if Disney continues with decent discounts.

That will be a problem for brokers because he will have to pay owners less or take very little commissio.


----------



## suemom2kay

ScubaCat said:


> Rental prices are fair. It's what the points are worth to the owners as well. The points charts don't necessarily line up with demand, and the hotels yield depending on such. In fact, summer is a bit less points next year. (and did I mention free parking??)


I think rental prices are fair in general, but not David's prices.  He is up to $19pp (non-premium) and is giving owners the same $14.50 (non-premium) to 15.50.  So he raised his commission by $1 pp but kept his payout the same.  That puts his commission at about 24%.  That is a HUGE commission to be an intermediary.  He doesn't do much and clearly offers no protection to the renter and a big mess for owners.  I compared apples to apples and Disney beat his price.  If the renter paid Premium prices for that summer reservation, it would be $3700 (David's) vs $3285 (CRO).  So quite a bit more for a LOT of risk.


----------



## suemom2kay

Sandisw said:


> Now add the cost of CFAR insurance and renting is no longer attractive at those rates.
> 
> I still believe rental prices will need to come down if Disney continues with decent discounts.
> 
> That will be a problem for brokers because he will have to pay owners less or take very little commissio.


Agreed.  Except at greater than or equal to 24% commission he has plenty of wiggle room.


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## cmrdgrs

DVC rentals are always in direct competition with Disney CRO reservations.  I just had a renter contact me the other day about a rental I have at VGC.  I recommended before he commit to a VGC rental, he should really consider a CRO GCH with Disney.  More flexibility given the current environment, and right now they have some good deals.  It's not that I'm not happy to take the rental, I don't really want to take a rental and have an unhappy "customer" -- but, that's how I think.  I want people to feel happy, not taken advantage of.  If people don't feel treated fairly they won't be repeat renters.  I think DVC rental prices overall are headed for a lower price.


----------



## suemom2kay

cmrdgrs said:


> DVC rentals are always in direct competition with Disney CRO reservations.  I just had a renter contact me the other day about a rental I have at VGC.  I recommended before he commit to a VGC rental, he should really consider a CRO GCH with Disney.  More flexibility given the current environment, and right now they have some good deals.  It's not that I'm not happy to take the rental, I don't really want to take a rental and have an unhappy "customer" -- but, that's how I think.  I want people to feel happy, not taken advantage of.  If people don't feel treated fairly they won't be repeat renters.  I think DVC rental prices overall are headed for a lower price.


I agree with all of this.


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## Yinn

Sandisw said:


> Now add the cost of CFAR insurance and renting is no longer attractive at those rates.
> 
> I still believe rental prices will need to come down if Disney continues with decent discounts.
> 
> That will be a problem for brokers because he will have to pay owners less or take very little commissio.



The fact that he's raised prices but not to the owners means the latter is unlikely.  So if he reduces the fees to owners, he'll quickly lose them.  At $13.50-14.50/pt, that's already a slim margin over annual dues.  If he brings them down hypothetically buy $1/pt, that's a gain of $4-5/pt for most owners.  

At those prices, I'll be much more likely to bank my points or splurge on a 2 bedroom.  If I'm in a bind with expiring points, maybe I'll rent them out.  Otherwise my friends & family will be hearing from me.  Want to go to Disney?  I have points to use.


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> The renters paid for a room type at a specific resort for specific dates.  If they can't check in to the room because it is no longer available, then David owes them a REFUND not a voucher.  David's for years marketed his no risk service and protection of the renter from unscrupulous owners cancelling their reservation (either willingly or through default), but now he is scrambling.  He is obstructing people from solving their own issues which is the opposite of what a broker (or travel agent - not sure what he is really) should be doing.
> 
> As for a no refunds contract, David's breached that contract the minute Disney closed the resort.  Therefore, the chargebacks should go through.  Just my opinion but the contract is breached or "frustrated" learned that word on this thread.
> 
> I have several rentals this year and believe that the onus of the impact of the resort closures is on me the owner.  If I rented you an apartment and the building burned down before you moved in, I would owe you back your rent and security deposit.  If you were already there, I couldn't collect rent from you while the apartment was not there.
> 
> Putting all the responsibility on the renters to get insurance makes no sense IMHO.  This is not a renter needing to cancel a vacation.  This is a resort closure.



I hope renters can get refunds from David’s if that is possible under the contract they have with him. I don’t think it is. Early indications are that credit card charge backs may not be successful. We have already read reports on this thread that Pay Pal have rejected a charge back claim after reviewing contract.

Its not clear that in Canada David’s has broken any Pay Pal rules.  Pay Pal in the US has different rules to other countries they operate.

The option to take insurance is available and if you decide not to take that option you run a risk that you will lose out. Not taking insurance is a gamble, usually you win, but not always.

David’s recommends renters to take insurance because unexpected things can happen. It’s up to each individual if they decide to follow that advice or not.


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## yankeesfan123

This whole “buy insurance” talk has been going on for way too long in this thread and seems completely irrelevant to how David’s is handling the situation, which is what I thought this thread was for.


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## DisneyBB

I thought I would share my experience so far as an owner with David.   

My reservations are in the last few months of my use year.  I did realise this when I accepted them but like everyone else didn't envisage this happening. 

I contacted David with my concerns about points expiring etc (this was before the DVC update).  He replied promptly and explained what he is currently doing.  I replied saying I would like to contact my renters and ask them what they would like to do.  I had decided to work within Davids refund policy if the renters wanted his voucher or reschedule to another date.  

David thanked me and said he would contact the renters to see what they wanted to do. He did say that I could approach them but was concerned that I maybe would be placed in a position of compromising the contract or not being able to answer questions.  So I left it to them to contact the families.

One of the families came back with a request to reschedule.  I did this online using the same points after banking them.  The cost to renter has not changed and the new contract to them states that in case this situation happens again hey would be given a travel voucher.  

Waiting for the other family to decide, but TBH it has been a very smooth transaction.  Now the worry of points not expiring has gone it makes it a lot easier.  I have used David for years renting out my points and everything has gone smoothly in the past.  Will I rent again? not sure because of the worry of losing points and disappointing families is quite stressful. Def will not rent them in the last 4 months of their life though.

Thought it is important to say when transactions have gone well just to balance things out.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> I hope renters can get refunds from David’s if that is possible under the contract they have with him. I don’t think it is. Early indications are that credit card charge backs may not be successful. We have already read reports on this thread that Pay Pal have rejected a charge back claim after reviewing contract.
> 
> Its not clear that in Canada David’s has broken any Pay Pal rules.  Pay Pal in the US has different rules to other countries they operate.
> 
> The option to take insurance is available and if you decide not to take that option you run a risk that you will lose out. Not taking insurance is a gamble, usually you win, but not always.
> 
> David’s recommends renters to take insurance because unexpected things can happen. It’s up to each individual if they decide to follow that advice or not.



I thought the chargeback was for a vacation rental that was available but not for a Disney canceled room.


----------



## Sandisw

DisneyBB said:


> I thought I would share my experience so far as an owner with David.
> 
> My reservations are in the last few months of my use year.  I did realise this when I accepted them but like everyone else didn't envisage this happening.
> 
> I contacted David with my concerns about points expiring etc (this was before the DVC update).  He replied promptly and explained what he is currently doing.  I replied saying I would like to contact my renters and ask them what they would like to do.  I had decided to work within Davids refund policy if the renters wanted his voucher or reschedule to another date.
> 
> David thanked me and said he would contact the renters to see what they wanted to do. He did say that I could approach them but was concerned that I maybe would be placed in a position of compromising the contract or not being able to answer questions.  So I left it to them to contact the families.
> 
> One of the families came back with a request to reschedule.  I did this online using the same points after banking them.  The cost to renter has not changed and the new contract to them states that in case this situation happens again hey would be given a travel voucher.
> 
> Waiting for the other family to decide, but TBH it has been a very smooth transaction.  Now the worry of points not expiring has gone it makes it a lot easier.  I have used David for years renting out my points and everything has gone smoothly in the past.  Will I rent again? not sure because of the worry of losing points and disappointing families is quite stressful. Def will not rent them in the last 4 months of their life though.
> 
> Thought it is important to say when transactions have gone well just to balance things out.



That is great he worked with you. It sounds like others were not that lucky.


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## DisneyBB

Sandisw said:


> I thought the chargeback was for a vacation rental that was available but not for a Disney canceled room.


Yes this is not in the same situation as the Disney cancelled reservations.  But think mine would have ended up that way.  I could just watched it play out but thought if I was a family renting I would want the opportunity to reschedule a trip.  
I thought it would useful as others have up and coming trips that Disney may well cancel.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

McCrae said:


> Read them all.
> 
> Buy insurance next time.


To much redundant reading, try the actual  policy summary.  Notice WHO has to cancel the trip to create coverage.  And of course, it is not available since there is a chance insurance companies will have to disgorge their fraudulent coverage.

_Trip Cancellation for Any Reason_

_*(Trip Cancellation for Any Reason coverage is temporarily unavailable)*

Optional Trip Cancellation For Any Reason can reimburse up to 75% of your prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable Trip Cost* if you have to cancel*. 

The reason for your cancellation doesn’t matter, but you will need to meet a few other requirements.
*To be eligible for this coverage, make sure:*_

_You purchased Trip Cancellation For Any Reason within 24 hours of making initial deposit for your trip._
_*You cancel your trip 48 hours or more before your scheduled departure.*_
_You insured all of your nonrefundable trip costs that are subject to cancellation penalties._
_Your per person trip cost is no more than $10,000._
_You weren’t disabled from travel when you bought coverage._


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## dsnymnkyuncle

LAX said:


> More importantly, buy the RIGHT insurance next time.
> 
> LAX


Please help, what company is the "RIGHT" insurance?  Easy to just repeat false incorrect information.  What's the name?


----------



## Bowen Family

DisneyBB said:


> I thought I would share my experience so far as an owner with David.
> 
> My reservations are in the last few months of my use year.  I did realise this when I accepted them but like everyone else didn't envisage this happening.
> 
> I contacted David with my concerns about points expiring etc (this was before the DVC update).  He replied promptly and explained what he is currently doing.  I replied saying I would like to contact my renters and ask them what they would like to do.  I had decided to work within Davids refund policy if the renters wanted his voucher or reschedule to another date.
> 
> David thanked me and said he would contact the renters to see what they wanted to do. He did say that I could approach them but was concerned that I maybe would be placed in a position of compromising the contract or not being able to answer questions.  So I left it to them to contact the families.
> 
> One of the families came back with a request to reschedule.  I did this online using the same points after banking them.  The cost to renter has not changed and the new contract to them states that in case this situation happens again hey would be given a travel voucher.
> 
> Waiting for the other family to decide, but TBH it has been a very smooth transaction.  Now the worry of points not expiring has gone it makes it a lot easier.  I have used David for years renting out my points and everything has gone smoothly in the past.  Will I rent again? not sure because of the worry of losing points and disappointing families is quite stressful. Def will not rent them in the last 4 months of their life though.
> 
> Thought it is important to say when transactions have gone well just to balance things out.



Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly how all three parties can and should work together to find a mutually acceptable outcome. And since the recent DVC policy announcement, I’d like to think we’ll see a lot more of these stories. But so far, David’s is rebuffing my repeated requests to simply seek a deferred reservation with the owner. They keep calling themselves my intermediary, but are literally doing the opposite of what an intermediary is supposed to do! More renters should contact them and insist on this approach before even contemplating this so called voucher or credit. I already have a credit, thanks very much! 70% of my money is with the owner! Let us all sort this out the easy way before agreeing to take up residence in this house of cards they are building.


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## dsnymnkyuncle

Insurance posts matter when making renters whole is part of the discussion.  Dave has taken an unusual course in fixing the problem.  Chargeback is a viable alternative to David and the problem.  Several post that insurance is also a solution.  It is not.  I tried to get coverage as I posted before for a trip last JAN at then end of the day, reading the policy the answer was the policy WOULD NOT pay.  The cost of the policy then became wasted.

I appreciate the reference to insure and go and will be looking at it later.  For now it makes extremely clear that C19 is EXCLUDED from coverage after insure and go declared C19 a "KNOWN EVENT" on the 11th of March.  So far they will "CONSIDER" a claim for before they made the declaration.  As you can see from the above post there is still a multiple set of fine print hoops to jump through.

Far easier to just ask who, if anyone, actually got paid by an add on insurance policy and who the issuer was.


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> I hope renters can get refunds from David’s if that is possible under the contract they have with him. I don’t think it is. Early indications are that credit card charge backs may not be successful. We have already read reports on this thread that Pay Pal have rejected a charge back claim after reviewing contract.
> 
> Its not clear that in Canada David’s has broken any Pay Pal rules.  Pay Pal in the US has different rules to other countries they operate.
> 
> The option to take insurance is available and if you decide not to take that option you run a risk that you will lose out. Not taking insurance is a gamble, usually you win, but not always.
> 
> David’s recommends renters to take insurance because unexpected things can happen. It’s up to each individual if they decide to follow that advice or not.


Assuming Paypal has a "no timeshare rule" only for the US makes little sense to me and I find that highly unlikely.  In addition, the majority of his customers are in the US and would be putting a claim through Paypal US.  My point is if PP says no timeshares, PP is not likely to protect the renter when it doesn't work out.

And really, are we still talking about the renter having insurance?  David's breached the contract when the room was cancelled.  The reason for the cancellation is irrelevant since it was NOT cancelled by the renter.  David's is responsible to refund they're money and I am confident that once CC companies verify that the goods were not received on the purchase, they will authorize the chargeback.  But, we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Bowen Family

Bowen Family said:


> Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly how all three parties can and should work together to find a mutually acceptable outcome. And since the recent DVC policy announcement, I’d like to think we’ll see a lot more of these stories. But so far, David’s is rebuffing my repeated requests to simply seek a deferred reservation with the owner. They keep calling themselves my intermediary, but are literally doing the opposite of what an intermediary is supposed to do! More renters should contact them and insist on this approach before even contemplating this so called voucher or credit. I already have a credit, thanks very much! 70% of my money is with the owner! Let us all sort this out the easy way before agreeing to take up residence in this house of cards they are building.



An update on my request to reschedule with the owner:

David’s has just advised me that my owner’s points are set to expire in Dec 2020, so rescheduling our May 2020 AKL stay with that owner for a 2021 date is not possible. 

Can an owner please help me understand this? Does this mean that the owner’s points were banked from 2018 and were originally going to expire in June 2020 (one month after our trip), and that DVC’s new 6 month extension on banked points means they now expire in Dec 2020? That’s the only scenario I can think of, since if these points were from 2019 or 2020 UY points, they would be available beyond Dec 2020. Am I even close on this?


----------



## Amymouse13

suemom2kay said:


> Assuming Paypal has a "no timeshare rule" only for the US makes little sense to me and I find that highly unlikely.  In addition, the majority of his customers are in the US and would be putting a claim through Paypal US.  My point is if PP says no timeshares, PP is not likely to protect the renter when it doesn't work out.
> 
> And really, are we still talking about the renter having insurance?  David's breached the contract when the room was cancelled.  The reason for the cancellation is irrelevant since it was NOT cancelled by the renter.  David's is responsible to refund they're money and I am confident that once CC companies verify that the goods were not received on the purchase, they will authorize the chargeback.  But, we'll just have to wait and see.



I know as a renter I paid with a credit card not PayPal and I am not sure it was even option.


----------



## CarolMN

Bowen Family said:


> An update on my request to reschedule with the owner:
> 
> David’s has just advised me that my owner’s points are set to expire in Dec 2020, so rescheduling our May 2020 AKL stay with that owner for a 2021 date is not possible.
> 
> Can an owner please help me understand this? Does this mean that the owner’s points were banked from 2018 and were originally going to expire in June 2020 (one month after our trip), and that DVC’s new 6 month extension on banked points means they now expire in Dec 2020? That’s the only scenario I can think of, since if these points were from 2019 or 2020 UY points, they would be available beyond Dec 2020. Am I even close on this?


Yes, that must be the case.  If June use year points originally from 2018 were used, the extension just announced says those points will now expire on 12/1/2020.  The last night they could pay for is 11/30/2020.


----------



## Bowen Family

CarolMN said:


> Yes, that must be the case.  If June use year points originally from 2018 were used, the extension just announced says those points will now expire on 12/1/2020.  The last night they could pay for is 11/30/2020.



Very helpful, Carol!  Thank you!


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bowen Family said:


> Very helpful, Carol!  Thank you!


My understanding of the 'voucher' is that you are uncoupled from the owner currently contracted with.  One part of the voucher that benefits is that your owner could be paired with someone travelling sooner and you could be paired with a different owners with different point use  years.  This is not an endorsement of the vouchers.


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## DVC Doctor

The amazing thing is that Davids is absent posting on this site and others.

If there was good news to report, he would be using these forums to post, if there is bad news, then he would vanish.

Live by the sword....die by the sword


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> An update on my request to reschedule with the owner:
> 
> David’s has just advised me that my owner’s points are set to expire in Dec 2020, so rescheduling our May 2020 AKL stay with that owner for a 2021 date is not possible.
> 
> Can an owner please help me understand this? Does this mean that the owner’s points were banked from 2018 and were originally going to expire in June 2020 (one month after our trip), and that DVC’s new 6 month extension on banked points means they now expire in Dec 2020? That’s the only scenario I can think of, since if these points were from 2019 or 2020 UY points, they would be available beyond Dec 2020. Am I even close on this?



The other piece is they could be banked 2018 Dec UY points.  Those are not being given any extension because they anticipate resorts open by then.

So, they could either be points from June UY points that were extended, or they type I mentioned above.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Bowen Family said:


> An update on my request to reschedule with the owner:
> 
> David’s has just advised me that my owner’s points are set to expire in Dec 2020, so rescheduling our May 2020 AKL stay with that owner for a 2021 date is not possible.
> 
> Can an owner please help me understand this? Does this mean that the owner’s points were banked from 2018 and were originally going to expire in June 2020 (one month after our trip), and that DVC’s new 6 month extension on banked points means they now expire in Dec 2020? That’s the only scenario I can think of, since if these points were from 2019 or 2020 UY points, they would be available beyond Dec 2020. Am I even close on this?





CarolMN said:


> Yes, that must be the case.  If June use year points originally from 2018 were used, the extension just announced says those points will now expire on 12/1/2020.  The last night they could pay for is 11/30/2020.



couldn’t the points have been from a December 2018 UY which have been banked to 2019 as well? Then they would expire 11/30-2020 too.

 They aren’t necessarily from a June UY which have been extended.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Sandisw said:


> The other piece is they could be banked 2018 Dec UY points.  Those are not being given any extension because they anticipate resorts open by then.
> 
> So, they could either be points from June UY points that were extended, or they type I mentioned above.


Ha ha my point exactly - I didn’t see your response


----------



## McCrae

CanAdianDad said:


> As you love stating ”buy insurance” you know owners could do the same to protect their points should they expire in the event that they weren’t able to provide the agreed upon reservation And are due to provide a refund as they did not live up to their end of the contract by closing the resort. I think that both owners and renters can easily point the finger at David’s in this case as he promised protection to both sides. As most can attest, insurance is not the answer for renters.



Owners could buy insurance, but it wouldn’t be the same type as renters should have. Both parties would be looking to cover different risks.

Renters are facing a problem if they didn’t have insurance. Potential  losses could have been covered. Insurance to cover this risk was available for the renter.  If you wanted to be protected insurance clearly was the answer.

If anything I am surprised that anyone would sign a contract with a no refunds clause and not take out insurance to protect themselves.  So many things can go wrong.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> I know as a renter I paid with a credit card not PayPal and I am not sure it was even option.


Owners are paid through Pay Pal. People had been talking about the possibility of David’s doing a charge back through PayPal against owners.
As ever with threads the discussion points can drift. Some posters started to criticise David’s for using PayPal as they thought this activity was not allowed  and it was a sign of bad practice. The PayPal rules in Canada and every other country are different. It appears that in Canada it’s not against the rules for Davids to pay owners through PayPal. Pay Pal protection is not available and Davids has no chance of a successful charge back against owners.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Insurance posts matter when making renters whole is part of the discussion.  Dave has taken an unusual course in fixing the problem.  Chargeback is a viable alternative to David and the problem.  Several post that insurance is also a solution.  It is not.  I tried to get coverage as I posted before for a trip last JAN at then end of the day, reading the policy the answer was the policy WOULD NOT pay.  The cost of the policy then became wasted.
> 
> I appreciate the reference to insure and go and will be looking at it later.  For now it makes extremely clear that C19 is EXCLUDED from coverage after insure and go declared C19 a "KNOWN EVENT" on the 11th of March.  So far they will "CONSIDER" a claim for before they made the declaration.  As you can see from the above post there is still a multiple set of fine print hoops to jump through.
> 
> Far easier to just ask who, if anyone, actually got paid by an add on insurance policy and who the issuer was.



You just looked at the wrong type of insurance policy. If you look at the link I posted earlier in this thread from the AARP it outlines all of the options available, the article has a link to where you could find insurance that would covers this type of risk.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> To much redundant reading, try the actual  policy summary.  Notice WHO has to cancel the trip to create coverage.  And of course, it is not available since there is a chance insurance companies will have to disgorge their fraudulent coverage.
> 
> _Trip Cancellation for Any Reason_
> 
> _*(Trip Cancellation for Any Reason coverage is temporarily unavailable)*
> 
> Optional Trip Cancellation For Any Reason can reimburse up to 75% of your prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable Trip Cost* if you have to cancel*.
> 
> The reason for your cancellation doesn’t matter, but you will need to meet a few other requirements.
> *To be eligible for this coverage, make sure:*_
> 
> _You purchased Trip Cancellation For Any Reason within 24 hours of making initial deposit for your trip._
> _*You cancel your trip 48 hours or more before your scheduled departure.*_
> _You insured all of your nonrefundable trip costs that are subject to cancellation penalties._
> _Your per person trip cost is no more than $10,000._
> _You weren’t disabled from travel when you bought coverage._



Every insurance policy is different. If you don’t like the conditions offered by a policy don’t buy it, get another one.
Full insurance coverage was available.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Please help, what company is the "RIGHT" insurance?  Easy to just repeat false incorrect information.  What's the name?



5 minutes searching on google will get you an adequate policy.


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> Assuming Paypal has a "no timeshare rule" only for the US makes little sense to me and I find that highly unlikely.  In addition, the majority of his customers are in the US and would be putting a claim through Paypal US.  My point is if PP says no timeshares, PP is not likely to protect the renter when it doesn't work out.
> 
> And really, are we still talking about the renter having insurance?  David's breached the contract when the room was cancelled.  The reason for the cancellation is irrelevant since it was NOT cancelled by the renter.  David's is responsible to refund they're money and I am confident that once CC companies verify that the goods were not received on the purchase, they will authorize the chargeback.  But, we'll just have to wait and see.


David’s is not based in the US and is covered by PayPal rules in Canada. As far as I am aware it is not illegal to use PayPal to pay owners based in the US. Clearly based on the volume of transactions David’s have, PayPal don’t regard it as a problem or they would have stopped it.


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> David’s is not based in the US and is covered by PayPal rules in Canada. As far as I am aware it is not illegal to use PayPal to pay owners based in the US. Clearly based on the volume of transactions David’s have, PayPal don’t regard it as a problem or they would have stopped it.


You are completely missing my point. If the customer aka renter uses PayPal in the US for a timeshare transaction, the customer would likely not be protected because the customer violated PayPal rules. I’m not, nor have you been speaking to David’s using PayPal to pay owners. I’m talking about buyer protection in PayPal.  This whole line of conversation is related to your claim that PayPal did not protect renters. Which why would PayPal protect the renter if the renter used PP for a timeshare rental transaction?  Let’s try to stay on point here.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

McCrae said:


> You just looked at the wrong type of insurance policy. If you look at the link I posted earlier in this thread from the AARP it outlines all of the options available, the article has a link to where you could find insurance that would covers this type of risk.  I underlined the hoops but 'trip cost' is a defned term by policy.  The insurance company is not paying for you or anyone to litigate or fight with David or airlines.  they are not paying you out and taking your claim.


You are not only wrong you seem to be actively misleading people.  There is coverage if you get C19.  But not anymore.  It is a 'known event'.  No coverage.  You have to cancel.  You, not Disney, not David not the owner.

https://www.aarp.org/travel/travel-tips/safety/info-2020/insurance-coronavirus-coverage.html
*"Cancel for any reason” coverage*
The only way to be compensated when you need to change or cancel your trip to avoid a high-risk area during a viral outbreak is by purchasing a cancel for any reason (CFAR) benefit with your travel insurance w3policy. CFAR coverage usually adds about 50 percent to the price of a basic policy, which averages 4 percent to 10 percent of a trip’s cost, says Stan Sandberg, cofounder of TravelInsurance.com, a site for comparing and purchasing travel insurance policies. Older travelers, who may be more at risk of health issues, tend to pay at the higher end of that range.
There are eligibility requirements for CFAR coverage: You usually are required to buy it no more than 21 days after paying for your trip. You also can’t cancel any later than 48 hours before your departure, and will* only* be reimbursed *up to 75 percent* of your *prepaid*, *nonrefundable* trip cost, says Meghan Walch, product manager for ************, another site for comparing and buying travel insurance policies. (Note that states regulate the U.S. travel insurance industry, so policy options vary; New York, for instance, doesn’t allow the sale of CFAR insurance.)


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

McCrae said:


> 5 minutes searching on google will get you an adequate policy.


Except it will not.  Which is proven by your responses instead of proving a name or link.  One would assume you knew something about which insurance company provides this based on your comments.  yet there is nothing supporting your conclusions


----------



## Sandisw

There seem to be a lot of back and forth regarding insurance.  It has been stared several times that some renters have indeed purchased travel insurance and have now found out it will not provide relief.  It has also been shared that some CFAR policy will cover and others will not. 

Obviously, in normal times, that is wise advice.  However, we are veering off topic which is the situation both renters and owners are having..positive and negative,,,with this broker,

Please continue discussing that topic only.  Continued posts regarding that will be deleted.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Sandisw said:


> There seem to be a lot of back and forth regarding insurance.  It has been stared several times that some renters have indeed purchased travel insurance and have now found out it will not provide relief.  It has also been shared that some CFAR policy will cover and others will not.
> 
> Obviously, in normal times, that is wise advice.  However, we are veering off topic which is the situation both renters and owners are having..positive and negative,,,with this broker,
> 
> Please continue discussing that topic only.  Continued posts regarding that will be deleted.


Got it.


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> You are completely missing my point. If the customer aka renter uses PayPal in the US for a timeshare transaction, the customer would likely not be protected because the customer violated PayPal rules. I’m not, nor have you been speaking to David’s using PayPal to pay owners. I’m talking about buyer protection in PayPal.  This whole line of conversation is related to your claim that PayPal did not protect renters. Which why would PayPal protect the renter if the renter used PP for a timeshare rental transaction?  Let’s try to stay on point here.


Agreed Pay Pal would not protect renter, sorry for my misunderstanding.


----------



## suemom2kay

Sandisw said:


> There seem to be a lot of back and forth regarding insurance.  It has been stared several times that some renters have indeed purchased travel insurance and have now found out it will not provide relief.  It has also been shared that some CFAR policy will cover and others will not.
> 
> Obviously, in normal times, that is wise advice.  However, we are veering off topic which is the situation both renters and owners are having..positive and negative,,,with this broker,
> 
> Please continue discussing that topic only.  Continued posts regarding that will be deleted.


Whoops.  Missed this post.  I got it now.


----------



## wuzzles

Do anybody know if David's is offering vouchers for the short period when the resorts were open, but the parks weren't? Or is it just for the period when resorts closed down?


----------



## LAX

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Please help, what company is the "RIGHT" insurance?  Easy to just repeat false incorrect information.  What's the name?



**Mods: I realize this is OT, but I appreciate the opportunity to respond to accusation of me "repeating false incorrect information." I will keep it brief.**

Please refer to post#2269, which I discussed different forms of "insurance" available. The bottom line is "insurance" does NOT have to come from an insurance company, so it's a moot point to offer you a company name. ALL renters need to decide what level of protection they need to feel comfortable before making a reservation. If you need the flexibility of a refundable reservation for literally any reason, then book directly with Disney and forgo the discounts you might otherwise enjoy through a nonrefundable DVC rental.

Lastly, let me know if that post contains any factually incorrect information.

LAX


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> Agreed Pay Pal would not protect renter, sorry for my misunderstanding.


It's all good.  I think we were talking about 2 different things.


----------



## cm8

wuzzles said:


> Do anybody know if David's is offering vouchers for the short period when the resorts were open, but the parks weren't? Or is it just for the period when resorts closed down?


I’m not David nor do I work for him. As an Owner who rents, if the resort was OPEN but the parks were closed, you would not be entitled to anything. The contract you entered into was for ***Sleeping accommodations ***   only.. And as such, you choose not to utilize your stay.


----------



## cmrdgrs

cm8 said:


> I’m not David nor do I work for him. As an Owner who rents, if the resort was OPEN but the parks were closed, you would not be entitled to anything. The contract you entered into was for ***Sleeping accommodations ***   only.. And as such, you choose not to utilize your stay.


However, as I reported earlier in the thread - a good friend of mine was not paid his 30% balance by David when the resort was open and the parks were closed.  I do not know what happened in that situation with this renter (and my friend the owner).  Didn't make much sense to me.


----------



## cm8

cmrdgrs said:


> However, as I reported earlier in the thread - a good friend of mine was not paid his 30% balance by David when the resort was open and the parks were closed.  I do not know what happened in that situation with this renter (and my friend the owner).  Didn't make much sense to me.


I would politely ask for my 30%. That would make David in breach of his own contract. I would post on every social media platform my experience with his company and the lack of response and resolution. There is zero excuse for why he has chosen to keep something that does not belong to him. Your friend should give him a time frame to have the funds paid and then look into what other options are available to get his /her funds. That is not acceptable. Maybe there is some licensing board this can be reported to?


----------



## cmrdgrs

cm8 said:


> I would politely ask for my 30%. That would make David in breach of his own contract. I would post on every social media platform my experience with his company and the lack of response and resolution. There is zero excuse for why he has chosen to keep something that does not belong to him. Your friend should give him a time frame to have the funds paid and then look into what other options are available to get his /her funds. That is not acceptable. Maybe there is some licensing board this can be reported to?


My friend did and David won't.  At least the was how it was left off at the end of March.  I think my friend and David are at a stalemate.


----------



## CraigInPA

cmrdgrs said:


> My friend did and David won't.  At least the was how it was left off at the end of March.  I think my friend and David are at a stalemate.



A lawsuit isn't worth the effort unless your friend is in Ontario Canada. A "stalemate" when one party unequivocally owes the other and refuses to pay is "theft". But, social media shaming is the great equalizer. Have your friend post his experience in a few places and send the links to David's so they can see how they are being portrayed. Don't threaten, just do it.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

CC Dispute update.  My CC issuer has asked me to provide a detailed email showing that my reservation was canceled (I just did a screenshot of Aulani's website showing all reservations will be automatically canceled for DVC) and why I am requesting a dispute (should be obvious, I didn't cancel, I didn't get an product, I paid a considerable chunk of change).  I also did a screenshot of the portion of the contract stating that a renter will be due a refund if no suitable accomodations can be given, and the blanket email that said "hey we will get back to you" which they never did after I asked about my reservation being potentially canceled.  I made sure to mention that David's is not offering any cash refunds.  I didn't say anything about the voucher because I don't want to further complicate matters, and the voucher is an entirely new contract that I did not agree to (still sitting in my inbox being ignored right now).  Anyone else hear anything from their CC companies?


----------



## suemom2kay

foodiddiedoo said:


> CC Dispute update.  My CC issuer has asked me to provide a detailed email showing that my reservation was canceled (I just did a screenshot of Aulani's website showing all reservations will be automatically canceled for DVC) and why I am requesting a dispute (should be obvious, I didn't cancel, I didn't get an product, I paid a considerable chunk of change).  I also did a screenshot of the portion of the contract stating that a renter will be due a refund if no suitable accomodations can be given, and the blanket email that said "hey we will get back to you" which they never did after I asked about my reservation being potentially canceled.  I made sure to mention that David's is not offering any cash refunds.  I didn't say anything about the voucher because I don't want to further complicate matters, and the voucher is an entirely new contract that I did not agree to (still sitting in my inbox being ignored right now).  Anyone else hear anything from their CC companies?


I think you have a very good shot.  When is your reservation for?


----------



## suemom2kay

cmrdgrs said:


> However, as I reported earlier in the thread - a good friend of mine was not paid his 30% balance by David when the resort was open and the parks were closed.  I do not know what happened in that situation with this renter (and my friend the owner).  Didn't make much sense to me.


This is another case where it boggles the mind that David won't work with both parties.  So did the renter cancel the reservation or just not show.  If they cancelled, Disney is currently extending those points.  If the renter could go prior to point expiration, you have resolution for all involved.  If he's not willing to work with anyone both the renter and owner lose in this situation.  It just boggles the mind.


----------



## VeroGuy

Has anyone accepted the voucher yet?  If so, is the voucher for the entire amount you sent David’s or is it for the entire amount minus David’s commission?  Just curious.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

suemom2kay said:


> This is another case where it boggles the mind that David won't work with both parties.  So did the renter cancel the reservation or just not show.  If they cancelled, Disney is currently extending those points.  If the renter could go prior to point expiration, you have resolution for all involved.  If he's not willing to work with anyone both the renter and owner lose in this situation.  It just boggles the mind.


This is another illustration of how complicated this situation is.  I would add that, if the resorts were open (which is what I thought the PP reported) and the renter was a no-show, then the renter should not be due a refund (voucher or otherwise) and the owner should have received the remaining 30% on the date of check-in per their contracts.

I don't see how David's can possibly treat a no-show while resorts were open the same as renters not having a reservation because the resorts were closed.  Unless I misunderstood the scenario, David's clearly owes the owner their 30% and the renter is not due a refund in this instance.  The contract was not "frustrated" or "invalidated" if resorts were open and the renter did not check in.  In fact, his contract explicitly states that, under those circumstances, the owner gets the remaining 30% and the "no cancellations" clause would apply to the renter.

If David's wants to be magnanimous and refund the renter anyway, that's his prerogative.  But not with the money he owes the owner in this case.


----------



## cm8

VeroGuy said:


> Has anyone accepted the voucher yet?  If so, is the voucher for the entire amount you sent David’s or is it for the entire amount minus David’s commission?  Just curious.


I wish we could get a definitive answer on that being that it specifically states the voucher has Zero cash value?? How do you assign values to an item that is worth zero?


----------



## Bing Showei

foodiddiedoo said:


> CC Dispute update.  My CC issuer has asked me to provide a detailed email showing that my reservation was canceled (I just did a screenshot of Aulani's website showing all reservations will be automatically canceled for DVC) and why I am requesting a dispute (should be obvious, I didn't cancel, I didn't get an product, I paid a considerable chunk of change).  I also did a screenshot of the portion of the contract stating that a renter will be due a refund if no suitable accomodations can be given, and the blanket email that said "hey we will get back to you" which they never did after I asked about my reservation being potentially canceled.  I made sure to mention that David's is not offering any cash refunds.  I didn't say anything about the voucher because I don't want to further complicate matters, and the voucher is an entirely new contract that I did not agree to (still sitting in my inbox being ignored right now).  Anyone else hear anything from their CC companies?


These were the explicit instructions from David's to me, as an owner, on how to handle a pending reservation during closure:



> (SNIP)
> 
> At this time we are asking that you do not cancel the reservation and let Disney do this on their own. We completely understand the inability to pay back the deposit that was sent to you back in ******* 2019.
> 
> Once this reservation is officially canceled by Disney, the points will be returned to you on a case-by-case basis. Some Owners points have been moved forward, some have not. Once we are able to determine the official expiry date of these points, we can further discuss the re-rental process.
> 
> (SNIP)
> 
> Sincerely,
> *******



This communication is important for two reasons.

One, David's is providing explicit instruction for owners to allow Disney to proceed with a cancellation of the reservation.

Two, David's is differentiating the actions of DVCMC in cancelling the reservation from an owner in terms of the cancellation process.

Point one is important for renters as it shows that at this point that David’s foresaw a cancellation and provided instructions to owners to allow this process to occur. If followed, these actions reduce David’s exposure to a contract breach with the renter (as opposed to owners cancelling on their own).

It would be helpful if other owners can confirm similar instructions were sent to them.


----------



## cvjw

cmrdgrs said:


> However, as I reported earlier in the thread - a good friend of mine was not paid his 30% balance by David when the resort was open and the parks were closed.  I do not know what happened in that situation with this renter (and my friend the owner).  Didn't make much sense to me.



I had a renter checking in on the 15th of March. The resorts were open the whole stay and the parks were open for part of the stay. David’s did not want to pay me the remaining 30%. I noticed late in the day that they had not paid me. When I called them, they said they may pay me in a few days. I told them I was done with them if they didn’t pay and to check and see how many of my points they had rented out. They paid about an hour later. If this was my first rental with them, I suspect the results would have been different. 

I also had a renter who chose to leave Disney early, while the resorts were still open. They wanted me to refund them for the nights they weren’t at Disney, even though no points came back to me. I said no.


----------



## lovethesun12

cvjw said:


> I had a renter checking in on the 15th of March. The resorts were open the whole stay and the parks were open for part of the stay. David’s did not want to pay me the remaining 30%. I noticed late in the day that they had not paid me. When I called them, they said they may pay me in a few days. I told them I was done with them if they didn’t pay and to check and see how many of my points they had rented out. They paid about an hour later. If this was my first rental with them, I suspect the results would have been different.
> 
> I also had a renter who chose to leave Disney early, while the resorts were still open. They wanted me to refund them for the nights they weren’t at Disney, even though no points came back to me. I said no.


As a renter not an owner, I think it was very unfair to even ask you for that.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

suemom2kay said:


> I think you have a very good shot.  When is your reservation for?


It was for April 18-25th.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

cmrdgrs said:


> My friend did and David won't.  At least the was how it was left off at the end of March.  I think my friend and David are at a stalemate.


That's the kind of thing that is REALLY going to scare off a lot of owners from using David's in the future.  I have not used David's to rent out my points, but I was keeping his service in my back pocket in case I ever had some points that I wouldn't be able to use for some reason...But now, I don't think I would be using David's...

I kind-of-get the argument that the owner "cancelled the reservation via Disney doing it and Disney is acting as the owner's agent" kind of thing...and David's wanting their money back or refusing to pay the 30% based on the reservation being actually cancelled.  

But for David's to make that argument as a basis for refusing to pay the owner their 30% and then turn around to the RENTERS and make almost the exact OPPOSITE argument while refusing to refund the renter is certainly contradictory.  David's is trying to have his cake, and eat it too.  Going to the renters and, essentially, saying the owner didn't cancel your reservation...Disney did...so you aren't due a refund...but out of the graciousness of our hearts, we will let you rebook at some point in the future (* - some restrictions apply).  He is arguing both sides of the coin to the different parties to the transaction and making the argument to each party that is most beneficial to David's.

If I were an owner, I would be okay if David's didn't pay me the 30%.  I understand a lot of owners don't agree with this, but I would be okay with it.  It's a situation that is literally hitting EVERYONE and I think it's fair for that pain to be felt equally.  If he didn't pay me the remaining 30%, I would consider the points mine, at that point, to use as I see fit...him paying me his original 70% is actually pretty darned close to 50% of the total amount of money he collected from the renter.

I would then attempt to work with David's to reasonably re-rent the points as best I could within the restrictions that are on those SPECIFIC points (use years, expiration, banking, borrowing, etc.)  If I re-rented, I would want the remaining 30% right away...not at check in... and I would consider that the points would belong to David's for him to use for the benefit of the renters...he could cancel, re-rent to more renters, etc...I wouldn't care...again within the usage limitations of those specific points.

If he couldn't find a renter within a reasonable amount of time before points expire or I couldn't bank them, etc...then I would just book a reservation for myself, upgrade one of my own reservations, RCI deposit, or gift them to a friend/family member and walk away.

Since Disney extended points expiration on reservations that were cancelled due to COVID, then it's a lot easier to work with David's on re-renting or to better plan for using the points myself.

If David's is ALSO refusing to pay owners their 30% for that weird period around where the parks were closed but resorts were open, then that is COMPLETE BS...IF that's true, I would DEFINITELY not rent my points through David's ever again.  There is literally no argument for not paying on that reservation.  If David's wants to give the renters in those cases his voucher, then that is HIS prerogative, but those points would definitely be used with no recourse from DVC...he absolutely should pay those out.


----------



## Dracula

cm8 said:


> I wish we could get a definitive answer on that being that it specifically states the voucher has Zero cash value?? How do you assign values to an item that is worth zero?


Airline frequent flyer miles have zero cash value, yet airlines are very happy to let you pay cash for them. There are plenty of other things that officially have no cash value, cannot be resold or returned, yet people spend money to acquire them: votes, love, a 20% off coupon at Lowe's, a strong avatar on Fortnite, a term life insurance shortly after issue, a Tables in Wonderland discount card and so on


----------



## Dracula

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> That's the kind of thing that is REALLY going to scare off a lot of owners from using David's in the future.  I have not used David's to rent out my points, but I was keeping his service in my back pocket in case I ever had some points that I wouldn't be able to use for some reason...But now, I don't think I would be using David's...
> 
> I kind-of-get the argument that the owner "cancelled the reservation via Disney doing it and Disney is acting as the owner's agent" kind of thing...and David's wanting their money back or refusing to pay the 30% based on the reservation being actually cancelled.
> 
> But for David's to make that argument as a basis for refusing to pay the owner their 30% and then turn around to the RENTERS and make almost the exact OPPOSITE argument while refusing to refund the renter is certainly contradictory.  David's is trying to have his cake, and eat it too.  Going to the renters and, essentially, saying the owner didn't cancel your reservation...Disney did...so you aren't due a refund...but out of the graciousness of our hearts, we will let you rebook at some point in the future (* - some restrictions apply).  He is arguing both sides of the coin to the different parties to the transaction and making the argument to each party that is most beneficial to David's.
> 
> If I were an owner, I would be okay if David's didn't pay me the 30%.  I understand a lot of owners don't agree with this, but I would be okay with it.  It's a situation that is literally hitting EVERYONE and I think it's fair for that pain to be felt equally.  If he didn't pay me the remaining 30%, I would consider the points mine, at that point, to use as I see fit...him paying me his original 70% is actually pretty darned close to 50% of the total amount of money he collected from the renter.
> 
> I would then attempt to work with David's to reasonably re-rent the points as best I could within the restrictions that are on those SPECIFIC points (use years, expiration, banking, borrowing, etc.)  If I re-rented, I would want the remaining 30% right away...not at check in... and I would consider that the points would belong to David's for him to use for the benefit of the renters...he could cancel, re-rent to more renters, etc...I wouldn't care...again within the usage limitations of those specific points.
> 
> If he couldn't find a renter within a reasonable amount of time before points expire or I couldn't bank them, etc...then I would just book a reservation for myself, upgrade one of my own reservations, RCI deposit, or gift them to a friend/family member and walk away.
> 
> Since Disney extended points expiration on reservations that were cancelled due to COVID, then it's a lot easier to work with David's on re-renting or to better plan for using the points myself.
> 
> If David's is ALSO refusing to pay owners their 30% for that weird period around where the parks were closed but resorts were open, then that is COMPLETE BS...IF that's true, I would DEFINITELY not rent my points through David's ever again.  There is literally no argument for not paying on that reservation.  If David's wants to give the renters in those cases his voucher, then that is HIS prerogative, but those points would definitely be used with no recourse from DVC...he absolutely should pay those out.


David indicated to me that the balance of 30% would be paid when the new, re-rented reservation would check in. So far David has never left me with un-rented points, but these are not normal times. I guess if there are no customers, 45 days prior to expiration I would move the points to RCI.


----------



## momincolorado

Bing Showei said:


> These were the explicit instructions from David's to me, as an owner, on how to handle a pending reservation during closure:
> 
> 
> 
> This communication is important for two reasons.
> 
> One, David's is providing explicit instruction for owners to allow Disney to proceed with a cancellation of the reservation.
> 
> Two, David's is differentiating the actions of DVCMC in cancelling the reservation from an owner in terms of the cancellation process.
> 
> Point one is important for renters as it shows that at this point that David’s foresaw a cancellation and provided instructions to owners to allow this process to occur. If followed, these actions reduce David’s exposure to a contract breach with the renter (as opposed to owners cancelling on their own).
> 
> It would be helpful if other owners can confirm similar instructions were sent to them.



I spoke with Chase on this issue so this might be of interest to those with chargebacks pending. While I’m still awaiting final resolution, Chase had indicated that the “contract won’t protect them if the services or goods were not delivered.” In other words, the cc issuer here is not looking to take the contract apart, clause by clause, to see who cancelled and what it all means. They were focused on two things - that the renter did not cancel and that the reservation dates were during the resort closure period.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Same thing Chase said to me - If you paid for it and it was Not delivered you are due a refund - per Chase they can not do this.


----------



## banzai75

WDWEPCOT said:


> Same thing Chase said to me - If you paid for it and it was Not delivered you are due a refund - per Chase they can not do this.



this is very encouraging as I am with chase too!


----------



## cmrdgrs

There is just no way that any broker is going to be able to stop the chargeback process.  Yes, the renter paid in full, but the renter did not cancel.  So, it would seem to me the "non-refundable" part of the contract applies to the renter cancelling -- no?  The contract didn't state anything about what happens when Disney cancels -- yes?

I honestly think the credit card companies are going to side with renters.  The renter paid for a service/room that was not fulfilled on the date is was suppose to be fulfilled.

IMO, renters should not accept the credit voucher.  I also don't understand how David can issue the renter a credit voucher without a new contractual agreement with the owner.  Doesn't the owner also have to sign a new agreement with David?


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> There is just no way that any broker is going to be able to stop the chargeback process.  Yes, the renter paid in full, but the renter did not cancel.  So, it would seem to me the "non-refundable" part of the contract applies to the renter cancelling -- no?  The contract didn't state anything about what happens when Disney cancels -- yes?
> 
> I honestly think the credit card companies are going to side with renters.  The renter paid for a service/room that was not fulfilled on the date is was suppose to be fulfilled.
> 
> IMO, renters should not accept the credit voucher.  I also don't understand how David can issue the renter a credit voucher without a new contractual agreement with the owner.  Doesn't the owner also have to sign a new agreement with David?


As an owner, I did not sign a new agreement with David - just an email exchange confirming I am willing to re-rent, and they notified me that my points are back in the queue.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I have nothing as an Owner that cancels the agreement I have with David’s 
I as a renter have an agreement that was not fulfilled 
David has taken it upon himself without checking with the parties who signed these agreements to issue a voucher and now wants Owners and Renters to enter into new agreements with new people - are you kidding me? He hasn’t handle the first set of agreements correctly and now we should enter more agreements with him? As I have said I have horses in both sides of this and I’m so sorry I ever dealt with him as he is not living up to what he has advertised .


----------



## disneypharm

I was told the same thing by Chase; however, let's not get too excited yet.  Although the money was put back in my account immediately, I still have to send them documents (eg, emails, contracts) before final approval.  I have 2 contracts (split stay) bought several months apart.  I realized that I paid each using a different credit card, so now I have to deal with 2 companies.  Ugh!  They have very different processes.  I had to call Chase but the other cc company is by mail or fax, so it will be weeks before I hear back anything.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

cmrdgrs said:


> There is just no way that any broker is going to be able to stop the chargeback process.  Yes, the renter paid in full, but the renter did not cancel.  So, it would seem to me the "non-refundable" part of the contract applies to the renter cancelling -- no?  The contract didn't state anything about what happens when Disney cancels -- yes?
> 
> I honestly think the credit card companies are going to side with renters.  The renter paid for a service/room that was not fulfilled on the date is was suppose to be fulfilled.
> 
> IMO, renters should not accept the credit voucher.  I also don't understand how David can issue the renter a credit voucher without a new contractual agreement with the owner.  Doesn't the owner also have to sign a new agreement with David?


This goes back to the fundamental problem that David has on his hands...

The renter didn't cancel, but they didn't get the reservation they paid for... so they are due a refund from David's.

The owner didn't cancel either and has a contract stating that they get paid whether the renter checks in or not... so technically, they are due the remaining 30% of the payment and don't have an obligation to return money to David's because they fulfilled the terms of the contract they have with him.

Some may argue that Disney closing counts because it was "on the owner's behalf."  But the owner's contract with David's says that their obligation is that THEY don't cancel the reservation, or cause it to be cancelled due to their negligence (defaulting on MF payment, loan, etc.).  Disney closing the resorts due to a pandemic is not negligence on the owner's part.

Things are further complicated by the convoluted 3-way contract which doesn't make the owner accountable to the renter, but to David's.  Under normal circumstances, if an owner cancelled someone's reservation, they owe the money back to David's per their contract with him.  David's owes a refund to the renter per his contract with them.  The owner is not refunding the renter, David's is... because that's who they paid.

If the contract David's had with owners was better written, it wouldn't be in question whether they were obligated to return the 70% deposit they were paid and David's should have been able to use those funds to refund 100% of renters.

One thing is for certain... if rental brokers survive this, they will re-write their contracts to avoid being stuck holding the bag if something like this ever happens again.


----------



## disneypharm

Grumpy by Birth said:


> One thing is for certain... if rental brokers survive this, they will re-write their contracts to avoid being stuck holding the bag if something like this ever happens again.


He has and that's why some renters are refusing to sign the new contract that removes any protection they had before.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

disneypharm said:


> He has and that's why some renters are refusing to sign the new contract that removes any protection they had before.


I was referring to having better written contracts for new rentals moving forward.  

What he's doing now is trying to change the terms of existing contracts, which is one of the reasons many who are dealing with this company are fed up.


----------



## disneypharm

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I was referring to having better written contracts for new rentals moving forward.
> 
> What he's doing now is trying to change the terms of existing contracts, which is one of the reasons many who are dealing with this company are fed up.


Yes, I got that.  He probably will be using same paragraphs for future contracts.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> As an owner, I did not sign a new agreement with David - just an email exchange confirming I am willing to re-rent, and they notified me that my points are back in the queue.


But, really this situation requires a new contract between everyone.  Plus, if David doesn't allow a sublet of the rental, by his own contract aren't you required to do a new rental for the same renters?


----------



## CraigInPA

Grumpy by Birth said:


> If the contract David's had with owners was better written, it wouldn't be in question whether they were obligated to return the 70% deposit they were paid and David's should have been able to use those funds to refund 100% of renters.



David's advertises "security" and "simplicity" for the Owner. The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill. The Owner doesn't have to find a Renter. The Owner doesn't have to deal with a Renter who wants to change their reservation. The Owner doesn't have to worry that the Renter will somehow reverse the transaction. For an Owner, the only thing they need to do is make the reservation, maybe order DDP, pay their dues, not cancel the reservation, and get paid by David's. All of these are points that David's advertises in order to get Owners to rent their points through him. For this, David's collects $4.50 per point as a commission, which is about 25% of the total paid by the Renter. Owners view the commission as high, but not for the "security" and "simplicity" that David's advertises for them.

If David's re-wrote his contract to make the Owner's payment reversible in the event of a Force Majeure or resort closure, his business would be done because no Owner will rent through him because his claim of "security" would be bogus.

I expect most of this are moot arguments, since David's has so incompetently handled the present situation and angered so many Owners that he is likely done as a company.


----------



## CraigInPA

cmrdgrs said:


> But, really this situation requires a new contract between everyone.  Plus, if David doesn't allow a sublet of the rental, by his own contract aren't you required to do a new rental for the same renters?



He needs to amend the current contract if the three parties are still the same, or enter into a new contract if the parties have changed.

He actually wants to do a new contract, since he gets to charge the new higher rental fee to his Renters. He is, however, sticking it to the Owners by not giving them the new higher fee paid to Owners, unless there are new points involved. And even then, only the new points are paid at the higher rate.

Such an outstanding example of honorable business practices I have not seen since.....Bernie Madoff.


----------



## dragonflymom

CraigInPA said:


> The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill.



How does this work?  If the owner were stuck with a DVC bill related to renter, would owner get re-imbursed by the broker who then goes after the renter?


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> But, really this situation requires a new contract between everyone.  Plus, if David doesn't allow a sublet of the rental, by his own contract aren't you required to do a new rental for the same renters?


It is not a sublet of an existing reservation, it would be a new reservation for new renters, at a higher price point, $15.50 instead of $14.50. Yes, I wish the 30% would have been paid to me at the day of check-in, but I think it is understandable that cash is in short supply these days. And for all the owners who say they would rent the points themselves, at this time renting points is many times more difficult than it was just two months ago.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> It is not a sublet of an existing reservation, it would be a new reservation for new renters, at a higher price point, $15.50 instead of $14.50. Yes, I wish the 30% would have been paid to me at the day of check-in, but I think it is understandable that cash is in short supply these days. And for all the owners who say they would rent the points themselves, at this time renting points is many times more difficult than it was just two months ago.


The way I view it, and we may disagree, you did a rental for a particular party for a particular amount of points.  David can't randomly now give you a new renter.  In my mind, you are tied to the old renter under the original agreement, those are the terms of what you, the original renter, and David agreed to.

If David wants you to rent your points to a new renter that (in my mind) requires a new agreement between your old renter, you and David.  Without an agreement from all three parties it doesn't seem like a valid contract.


----------



## New Mouse

If he is creating a new contract going forward doesnt that bascially justify both the owners and renters current claims?


----------



## cmrdgrs

CraigInPA said:


> David's advertises "security" and "simplicity" for the Owner. _*The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill. *_The Owner doesn't have to find a Renter. The Owner doesn't have to deal with a Renter who wants to change their reservation. The Owner doesn't have to worry that the Renter will somehow reverse the transaction. For an Owner, the only thing they need to do is make the reservation, maybe order DDP, pay their dues, not cancel the reservation, and get paid by David's. All of these are points that David's advertises in order to get Owners to rent their points through him. For this, David's collects $4.50 per point as a commission, which is about 25% of the total paid by the Renter. Owners view the commission as high, but not for the "security" and "simplicity" that David's advertises for them.
> 
> If David's re-wrote his contract to make the Owner's payment reversible in the event of a Force Majeure or resort closure, his business would be done because no Owner will rent through him because his claim of "security" would be bogus.
> 
> I expect most of this are moot arguments, since David's has so incompetently handled the present situation and angered so many Owners that he is likely done as a company.


This is not a true statement.  Every broker is just a middleman.  If the renter does damage to the room -- you the owner -- you are responsible for working things out between the broker, renter and Disney.

Brokers offer false sense of security to owners.  It has always been my opinion that brokers create an artificial ceiling on rental prices.  I have never and will never use a broker to do a rental.  I regularly rent my points for premium over brokers.  My average for renting my points is $20pp without a broker.  I never understand why owners settle for the prices brokers pay.  To each his own, but I think the extra dollars I make, and put in my own pocket, doing my own rentals, is well worth the work.


----------



## Bearval

CraigInPA said:


> David's advertises "security" and "simplicity" for the Owner. The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill. The Owner doesn't have to find a Renter. The Owner doesn't have to deal with a Renter who wants to change their reservation. The Owner doesn't have to worry that the Renter will somehow reverse the transaction. For an Owner, the only thing they need to do is make the reservation, maybe order DDP, pay their dues, not cancel the reservation, and get paid by David's. All of these are points that David's advertises in order to get Owners to rent their points through him. For this, David's collects $4.50 per point as a commission, which is about 25% of the total paid by the Renter. Owners view the commission as high, but not for the "security" and "simplicity" that David's advertises for them.
> 
> If David's re-wrote his contract to make the Owner's payment reversible in the event of a Force Majeure or resort closure, his business would be done because no Owner will rent through him because his claim of "security" would be bogus.
> 
> I expect most of this are moot arguments, since David's has so incompetently handled the present situation and angered so many Owners that he is likely done as a company.


I am not a lawyer but I did read the renters contract that is currently online and I would not get all warm and fuzzy about owner protection about the renter trashing or damaging the unit? My question is how is the renters forced to pay the damages? I only saw language that stated the renter has to pay the damages to the owner. What happens when the renter refuses or disputes they are responsible but DVC holds the owner responsible for the damage his "guests " did?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

CraigInPA said:


> If David's re-wrote his contract to make the Owner's payment reversible in the event of a Force Majeure or resort closure, his business would be done because no Owner will rent through him because his claim of "security" would be bogus.


Alternatively, he could put the onus on the renter... expanding the "no cancellations/no refunds" policy to include closures as a result of Force Majeure.  But then who would be willing to rent under those terms?

And, perhaps more importantly, would it matter what the contract says about "no refunds" if credit card companies and/or courts determine that he's not allowed to keep the money if no accomodations were provided.



CraigInPA said:


> I expect most of this are moot arguments, since David's has so incompetently handled the present situation and angered so many Owners that he is likely done as a company.


Very possible.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

cmrdgrs said:


> This is not a true statement.  Every broker is just a middleman.  If the renter does damage to the room -- you the owner -- you are responsible for working things out between the broker, renter and Disney.
> 
> Brokers offer false sense of security to owners.  It has always been my opinion that brokers create an artificial ceiling on rental prices.  I have never and will never use a broker to do a rental.  I regularly rent my points for premium over brokers.  My average for renting my points is $20pp without a broker.  I never understand why owners settle for the prices brokers pay.  To each his own, but I think the extra dollars I make, and put in my own pocket, doing my own rentals, is well worth the work.


_*The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill.*_
It might not be entirely true but the renter has to provide their own credit card for charges and has been checked in on their own and in person.  As far as unpaid bills the credit card is charged at least daily (by summary not by asking).  I don't see a scenario where an unpaid bill becomes an owner issue.  Cash customers can damage as well and as far as I know the association (owners) have never paid for that damage.  Maybe be Disney picks it up, to the extent it happens which would be something to think about if it happened.  But I have never heard of this occuring.

I tend to agree on the value of using a broker or not.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> _*The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill.*_
> It might not be entirely true but the renter has to provide their own credit card for charges and has been checked in on their own and in person.  As far as unpaid bills the credit card is charged at least daily (by summary not by asking).  I don't see a scenario where an unpaid bill becomes an owner issue.  Cash customers can damage as well and as far as I know the association (owners) have never paid for that damage.  Maybe be Disney picks it up, to the extent it happens which would be something to think about if it happened.  But I have never heard of this occuring.
> 
> I tend to agree on the value of using a broker or not.



They run a hold, but do not charge the cards until a certain threshold is met.  So, in theory, a renter can leave a balance if there is an issue processing the final bill. 

DVC would freeze an owners account until they get the guest to settle.  Same with room damages.

My understanding is the broker would help the owner in the sense they would work with the renter to settle things up, but ultimately, owners are held liable for guests, and if they can’t get them to pay, an owner has to or be locked out of using their membership,

Years ago, I read a few posts in which this happened, and owners were forced to settle because they couldn’t get a renter to make good.  It is rare though.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

Sandisw said:


> Years ago, I read a few posts in which this happened, and owners were forced to settle because they couldn’t get a renter to make good.  It is rare though.



I've read a couple too but less than a handful - maybe 2 or 3?  And all but one were actually family members.  I think people were posting about those because the notice came weeks after the visit.  And also recall that it was declined credit cards, not rooms trashed.  I don't believe that would happen now because of the way they are handling credit card charges.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Sandisw said:


> They run a hold, but do not charge the cards until a certain threshold is met.  So, in theory, a renter can leave a balance if there is an issue processing the final bill.
> 
> DVC would freeze an owners account until they get the guest to settle.  Same with room damages.
> 
> My understanding is the broker would help the owner in the sense they would work with the renter to settle things up, but ultimately, owners are held liable for guests, and if they can’t get them to pay, an owner has to or be locked out of using their membership,
> 
> Years ago, I read a few posts in which this happened, and owners were forced to settle because they couldn’t get a renter to make good.  It is rare though.


This was not my understanding at all.  I just ended a chat with DVC.  DVC says that at check the individual checking in either places a hold on credit card or posts a cash equivalent.  There is no liability to me as an owner for any charges by a checked in guest.  None.

Then I asked about damage to the room.  According to the documents available to the chat person there is NO liability to me as an owner to damage to the room by a checked in guest.  Liability for the damage is agreed to by the guest checking in.  None for me.


----------



## New Mouse

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> This was not my understanding at all.  I just ended a chat with DVC.  DVC says that at check the individual checking in either places a hold on credit card or posts a cash equivalent.  There is no liability to me as an owner for any charges by a checked in guest.  None.
> 
> Then I asked about damage to the room.  According to the documents available to the chat person there is NO liability to me as an owner to damage to the room by a checked in guest.  Liability for the damage is agreed to by the guest checking in.  None for me.



None of that is actually true.   If the guest stiffs the bill, which can and has been done, the owner is responsible.   One of the reasons Ive used Davids in the past is that he can and should be liable for getting funds from the guest.   If not, I would pass the bill along to him.


----------



## cmrdgrs

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> This was not my understanding at all.  I just ended a chat with DVC.  DVC says that at check the individual checking in either places a hold on credit card or posts a cash equivalent.  There is no liability to me as an owner for any charges by a checked in guest.  None.
> 
> Then I asked about damage to the room.  According to the documents available to the chat person there is NO liability to me as an owner to damage to the room by a checked in guest.  Liability for the damage is agreed to by the guest checking in.  None for me.


But, none of this has to do with the broker is the point.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> This was not my understanding at all.  I just ended a chat with DVC.  DVC says that at check the individual checking in either places a hold on credit card or posts a cash equivalent.  There is no liability to me as an owner for any charges by a checked in guest.  None.
> 
> Then I asked about damage to the room.  According to the documents available to the chat person there is NO liability to me as an owner to damage to the room by a checked in guest.  Liability for the damage is agreed to by the guest checking in.  None for me.



That is correct,  Disney can not come after you.  But, if you have a guest that causes damage or has a guest who ends up for some reason with an unpaid bill...ieL credit card issue after they check out...DVC will freeze your account until you get your guest to pay up.  It is even in the POS that you are ultimately responsible for the actions of your guests.

I do agree that with the way they do things now it is less likely, as I believe that is why they do the hold... but, they won’t let you use your account until things are settled.


----------



## Amymouse13

cmrdgrs said:


> The way I view it, and we may disagree, you did a rental for a particular party for a particular amount of points.  David can't randomly now give you a new renter.  In my mind, you are tied to the old renter under the original agreement, those are the terms of what you agree to.
> 
> If David wants you to rent your points to a new renter that (in my mind) requires a new agreement



I believe my contract as a renter explicitly listed the owner's names with whom I had contract...


As an aside and really off topic, I've learned so much contract law reading these past 108 or pages... Heck I've read my Montessori contract and their handbook and hot dang nothing about closures and still paying!  Force majeure, frustrated contracts, who said you don't learn new things during a pandemic and maybe save some money!

Btw so yes, Bank of America corporate credit card we had to call to file dispute and they quickly put required forms to sign in our account. We attached underlined contract and an email from David's saying our reservation was cancelled (back when he thought about doing things differently to have owner rebook) 

Citibank cc let me do online and just a few questions.  Currently says they have contacted David's and they have til June 14 or so to respond.  I presume they will ask for more but IDK...

We put in dispute back in March for our April 18-26 split stay (why two cc).  Both reservations were cancelled by April 1.


----------



## Bowen Family

Question for renters on here: how and when did you receive your cancellation notice for your rented DVC reservation?

Our May 10 check-in date still appears in our plans, even though Disney last week cancelled our FP and dining reservations. Starting to think we’re not going in May. Ha ha.

But seriously, what notice should I expect about the room cancellation? Does it come from Disney straight to my Disney account and/or email? Or to the owner, who forwards it to David’s, who then forwards it on to us?


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> Question for renters on here: how and when did you receive your cancellation notice for your rented DVC reservation?
> 
> Our May 10 check-in date still appears in our plans, even though Disney last week cancelled our FP and dining reservations. Starting to think we’re not going in May. Ha ha.
> 
> But seriously, what notice should I expect about the room cancellation? Does it come from Disney straight to my Disney account and/or email? Or to the owner, who forwards it to David’s, who then forwards it on to us?



I don’t think DVC has canceled that far out yet, They are on a different timetable then Disney, They are doing it week to week and believe just starting on those the first week in May

DVC is not sending out emails to owners,  The owner will see it disappear from their account when it is canceled,


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Amymouse13 said:


> As an aside and really off topic, I've learned so much contract law reading these past 108 or pages... Heck I've read my Montessori contract and their handbook and hot dang nothing about closures and still paying!  Force majeure, frustrated contracts, who said you don't learn new things during a pandemic and maybe save some money!


Don't forget about Illinois consumer protection laws overriding terms and conditions of the contract altogether.


----------



## starry_solo

Grumpy by Birth said:


> This goes back to the fundamental problem that David has on his hands...
> 
> The renter didn't cancel, but they didn't get the reservation they paid for... so they are due a refund from David's.
> 
> The owner didn't cancel either and has a contract stating that they get paid whether the renter checks in or not... so technically, they are due the remaining 30% of the payment and don't have an obligation to return money to David's because they fulfilled the terms of the contract they have with him.
> 
> Some may argue that Disney closing counts because it was "on the owner's behalf."  But the owner's contract with David's says that their obligation is that THEY don't cancel the reservation, or cause it to be cancelled due to their negligence (defaulting on MF payment, loan, etc.).  Disney closing the resorts due to a pandemic is not negligence on the owner's part.
> 
> Things are further complicated by the convoluted 3-way contract which doesn't make the owner accountable to the renter, but to David's.  Under normal circumstances, if an owner cancelled someone's reservation, they owe the money back to David's per their contract with him.  David's owes a refund to the renter per his contract with them.  The owner is not refunding the renter, David's is... because that's who they paid.
> 
> If the contract David's had with owners was better written, it wouldn't be in question whether they were obligated to return the 70% deposit they were paid and David's should have been able to use those funds to refund 100% of renters.
> 
> One thing is for certain... if rental brokers survive this, they will re-write their contracts to avoid being stuck holding the bag if something like this ever happens again.



They need to rewrite the contracts and make them one single contract


----------



## suemom2kay

foodiddiedoo said:


> It was for April 18-25th.


Oh... so that's already been cancelled by Disney.  My money is on you getting your money!


----------



## Amymouse13

starry_solo said:


> They need to rewrite the contracts and make them one single contract



I don't think so as then why does David's exist... Though I'm sure many of us wonder that each day... Like he's the middle man so if he's out of contract... 

I don't think this will be simple for him to rewrite, sure he can say renter no refunds no matter what blah blah, owners do what if resort is closed, keep the points and the money?  Or David gets both sides? Lol.  If owners don't get 70% upfront then why rent, if they have to return if closed regardless if points expire why rent, and why would a renter really want if there reservation was cancelled for any reason or by any person no refunds?  No thanks...

If we ever get to go back... I'm not renting points


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Bowen Family said:


> Question for renters on here: how and when did you receive your cancellation notice for your rented DVC reservation?
> 
> Our May 10 check-in date still appears in our plans, even though Disney last week cancelled our FP and dining reservations. Starting to think we’re not going in May. Ha ha.
> 
> But seriously, what notice should I expect about the room cancellation? Does it come from Disney straight to my Disney account and/or email? Or to the owner, who forwards it to David’s, who then forwards it on to us?


I never received an email about my canceled reservation from Disney, or David's.  Mine was cancelled several weeks ago for a 4/18 check in.


----------



## Sammie

Ultimately the renter is the member's guest and the member assumes responsibility of that room and consequently any damages or unpaid charges. I have always known that brokers provide more convenience than security and renters and members are naive to think otherwise. We rent beach condos all the time dealing directly with owners. If I were to ever rent my points, I would never use a broker.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> I don't think so as then why does David's exist... Though I'm sure many of us wonder that each day... Like he's the middle man so if he's out of contract...
> 
> I don't think this will be simple for him to rewrite, sure he can say renter no refunds no matter what blah blah, owners do what if resort is closed, keep the points and the money?  Or David gets both sides? Lol.  If owners don't get 70% upfront then why rent, if they have to return if closed regardless if points expire why rent, and why would a renter really want if there reservation was cancelled for any reason or by any person no refunds?  No thanks...
> 
> If we ever get to go back... I'm not renting points



The large discount over rack rates will have some people willing to take the risk that another pandemic type event won't occur again.


----------



## meryll83

My credit card company are now saying up to 45 days before they’ll be in touch with me just to get some more detail regarding my payment dispute, before even actually getting it submitted!

Thinking my travel insurance might be the way forward as, (in theory) they have shorter timescales... even if I would lose a small excess fee on the claim.

However, part of what the insurance claim guidance mentions is required as evidence is a cancellation invoice. I don’t think I can get this from David’s without choosing their option 2, and that leaves me completely empty handed if the insurance claim doesn’t go through...


----------



## Bearval

Sammie said:


> Ultimately the renter is the member's guest and the member assumes responsibility of that room and consequently any damages or unpaid charges. I have always known that brokers provide more convenience than security and renters and members are naive to think otherwise. We rent beach condos all the time dealing directly with owners. If I were to ever rent my points, I would never use a broker.


I total agree here, a company such as David's in my own opinion is charging a huge " finders fee" for matching your points up with a renter, after that you do a lot of the work by booking the room, DDP, Disney transportation, making changes if necessary and assuming the risks involved if this person unknown to you damages the property where costs are involved.  I think if I need to rent points it will be to family and friends I trust.


----------



## Henwen88

CraigInPA said:


> David's advertises "security" and "simplicity" for the Owner. The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill. The Owner doesn't have to find a Renter. The Owner doesn't have to deal with a Renter who wants to change their reservation. The Owner doesn't have to worry that the Renter will somehow reverse the transaction. For an Owner, the only thing they need to do is make the reservation, maybe order DDP, pay their dues, not cancel the reservation, and get paid by David's. All of these are points that David's advertises in order to get Owners to rent their points through him. For this, David's collects $4.50 per point as a commission, which is about 25% of the total paid by the Renter. Owners view the commission as high, but not for the "security" and "simplicity" that David's advertises for them.
> 
> If David's re-wrote his contract to make the Owner's payment reversible in the event of a Force Majeure or resort closure, his business would be done because no Owner will rent through him because his claim of "security" would be bogus.
> 
> I expect most of this are moot arguments, since David's has so incompetently handled the present situation and angered so many Owners that he is likely done as a company.


 
Very well put.  These are my same thoughts, and I have rented points both privately and through David's in the past.  I did a transfer last year instead and that was much better than either rental method... points gone, money in bank, hands washed of transaction


----------



## Henwen88

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> _*The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill.*_
> It might not be entirely true but the renter has to provide their own credit card for charges and has been checked in on their own and in person.  As far as unpaid bills the credit card is charged at least daily (by summary not by asking).  I don't see a scenario where an unpaid bill becomes an owner issue.  Cash customers can damage as well and as far as I know the association (owners) have never paid for that damage.  Maybe be Disney picks it up, to the extent it happens which would be something to think about if it happened.  But I have never heard of this occuring.





Sandisw said:


> They run a hold, but do not charge the cards until a certain threshold is met.  So, in theory, a renter can leave a balance if there is an issue processing the final bill.
> 
> DVC would freeze an owners account until they get the guest to settle.  Same with room damages.
> 
> My understanding is the broker would help the owner in the sense they would work with the renter to settle things up, but ultimately, owners are held liable for guests, and if they can’t get them to pay, an owner has to or be locked out of using their membership,
> 
> Years ago, I read a few posts in which this happened, and owners were forced to settle because they couldn’t get a renter to make good.  It is rare though.



That's actually not true (in my experience).  I rented points to a friend/co-worker.  Apparently, the cc they had for room charges had expired so they ended up with a large bill that went unpaid.  I had no clue (using my points normally) until months later (maybe 8 or so) when she was having issues with her credit report and let it slip.  They eventually made good with Disney, and I no longer rent to them, but if I wouldn't have found out on the renter's side, who knows if I would have ever learned of the situation from DVC.


----------



## Bowen Family

meryll83 said:


> However, part of what the insurance claim guidance mentions is required as evidence is a cancellation invoice. I don’t think I can get this from David’s without choosing their option 2, and that leaves me completely empty handed if the insurance claim doesn’t go through...



I’m still weighing my options and wondering also about proof of cancellation. So far the only thing we’ve decided for certain is that we will never select Option #2. 

Honestly, I’d really like to put my faith in Option #1, but it’s so one-sided and leaves the renter paying the same amount for FAR more risk than the original contract. At this point, I can’t see myself renting points ever again without knowing the expiry status of what I’m renting, and an agreement to work with the owner to reschedule within their expiry window in the event of a resort closure. 

Consumers of these rented points simply need more information to make informed decisions. But these options aren’t that. This is a take it or leave it offer, and even the ‘take it’ option can leave you with nothing. So for us it’s take a leap of faith with Option #1 or start a claim with our CC company. But definitely not Option #2!


----------



## suemom2kay

Bowen Family said:


> I’m still weighing my options and wondering also about proof of cancellation. So far the only thing we’ve decided for certain is that we will never select Option #2.
> 
> Honestly, I’d really like to put my faith in Option #1, but it’s so one-sided and leaves the renter paying the same amount for FAR more risk than the original contract. At this point, I can’t see myself renting points ever again without knowing the expiry status of what I’m renting, and an agreement to work with the owner to reschedule within their expiry window in the event of a resort closure.
> 
> Consumers of these rented points simply need more information to make informed decisions. But these options aren’t that. This is a take it or leave it offer, and even the ‘take it’ option can leave you with nothing. So for us it’s take a leap of faith with Option #1 or start a claim with our CC company. But definitely not Option #2!


A screenshot of Disney’s COVID message stating that all resorts are closed should suffice. It’s not a mystery that everything is closed. Alternatively, you have your confirmation number. Plug it into MDE and you should get a message that reservation is not found. HTH.


----------



## suemom2kay

McCrae said:


> The large discount over rack rates will have some people willing to take the risk that another pandemic type event won't occur again.


At David’s $19pp, is not much of a discount and can often be more (especially for 1 bedrooms). With a 25% or 30% discount from CRO.   David’s is over $100 MORE than CRO per night for a 1 bedroom August 2020.


----------



## Bowen Family

suemom2kay said:


> A screenshot of Disney’s COVID message stating that all resorts are closed should suffice. It’s not a mystery that everything is closed. Alternatively, you have your confirmation number. Plug it into MDE and you should get a message that reservation is not found. HTH.



Funny, saving screenshots is exactly what we’ve been doing so far! Our check in is/was May 10 so it still shows up in MDE. I’ll take your good advice for searching the res # once it disappears from our account. Thanks!


----------



## Sandisw

Henwen88 said:


> That's actually not true (in my experience).  I rented points to a friend/co-worker.  Apparently, the cc they had for room charges had expired so they ended up with a large bill that went unpaid.  I had no clue (using my points normally) until months later (maybe 8 or so) when she was having issues with her credit report and let it slip.  They eventually made good with Disney, and I no longer rent to them, but if I wouldn't have found out on the renter's side, who knows if I would have ever learned of the situation from DVC.



That is indeed a big change. Thank you for correcting me as that used to be the policy.


----------



## meryll83

suemom2kay said:


> A screenshot of Disney’s COVID message stating that all resorts are closed should suffice. It’s not a mystery that everything is closed. Alternatively, you have your confirmation number. Plug it into MDE and you should get a message that reservation is not found. HTH.


Thanks for the advice, will go and take a screenshot....
EDIT - where do I find the David’s message that the resorts are closed, I can’t see it?

Unfortunately we were booked at VGC at Disneyland who I understand don’t use the same reservation system...


----------



## McCrae

suemom2kay said:


> At David’s $19pp, it’s not much of a discount and can often be more (especially for 1 bedrooms). With a 25% or 30% discount from CRO.   David’s is over $100 MORE than CRO per night for a 1 bedroom August 2020.



For now that seems to be the case, but in normal circumstances thats not the position.  Availability for DVC units through Disney is normally very limited. I wouldn't consider renting points unless their was enough of a financial incentive to do so.


----------



## cmrdgrs

meryll83 said:


> Thanks for the advice, will go and take a screenshot....
> EDIT - where do I find the David’s message that the resorts are closed, I can’t see it?
> 
> Unfortunately we were booked at VGC at Disneyland who I understand don’t use the same reservation system...


You're correct. Disneyland reservations do not work in the My Disney Experience app.

I would think the Disneyland website might show the are closed?


----------



## meryll83

cmrdgrs said:


> You're correct. Disneyland reservations do not work in the My Disney Experience app.
> 
> I would think the Disneyland website might show the are closed?


It does, I’ll just screenshot that instead and hope that’s enough!


----------



## foodiddiedoo

meryll83 said:


> It does, I’ll just screenshot that instead and hope that’s enough!


That's what I did for Aulani, since it's not part of MDE either.  The person I talked to on the phone yesterday about collecting more information for my chargeback said that sounded fine but YMMV.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Henwen88 said:


> That's actually not true (in my experience).  I rented points to a friend/co-worker.  Apparently, the cc they had for room charges had expired so they ended up with a large bill that went unpaid.  I had no clue (using my points normally) until months later (maybe 8 or so) when she was having issues with her credit report and let it slip.  They eventually made good with Disney, and I no longer rent to them, but if I wouldn't have found out on the renter's side, who knows if I would have ever learned of the situation from DVC.


If I am reading you correctly the issue was caused at some point by an expired CC.  Disney never contacted you and you saw no effect on your account and rights.   You found out the issue existed from information on the renter's side.  This took about 8 months for you to learn.

This is pretty much what I would have expected.  I don't think the reason why the CC didn't work matters.  Here, the expired CC and subsequent charges is 100% on Disney, maybe excluding outright fraud but even then it is a Disney problem imo.  You didn't give an opinion on the renter's credit, sign a co pay agreement.  Not Disney, not any company nor any person can make someone responsible for what happens in these situations with out express consent.  I am far from a CC expert but this seems to violate many federal and state consumer protections.  And just like the IL Consumer Fraud Act it acts outside (or despite if you prefer) a contract.  FYI sign a contract for murder and see if a court enforces it.  then ask why a perfectly executed contract won't be enforced.  Law rules contracts.

In addition to my chat with DVC here is what is on line at Disney now.  Notice it covers room damages, smoking etc.  Again I am not a CC expert but I don't see how taking an extra 100 dollars every time a charge is made can go wrong.  the hold and hold time are not the bill and payment.  I am fairly sure Disney also (or did) check on the remaining balance on a card but not how.  It might be that damage discovered exceeds the CC max after check out.  Still can't see this an owner issue.


----------



## suemom2kay

meryll83 said:


> Thanks for the advice, will go and take a screenshot....
> EDIT - where do I find the David’s message that the resorts are closed, I can’t see it?
> 
> Unfortunately we were booked at VGC at Disneyland who I understand don’t use the same reservation system...


I meant on Disney's website.   You have your contract with David's showing a reservation at VGC so showing resort closure on the Disneyland site would show that you can't possibly have a reservation there.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> If I am reading you correctly the issue was caused at some point by an expired CC.  Disney never contacted you and you saw no effect on your account and rights.   You found out the issue existed from information on the renter's side.  This took about 8 months for you to learn.
> 
> This is pretty much what I would have expected.  I don't think the reason why the CC didn't work matters.  Here, the expired CC and subsequent charges is 100% on Disney, maybe excluding outright fraud but even then it is a Disney problem imo.  You didn't give an opinion on the renter's credit, sign a co pay agreement.  Not Disney, not any company nor any person can make someone responsible for what happens in these situations with out express consent.  I am far from a CC expert but this seems to violate many federal and state consumer protections.  And just like the IL Consumer Fraud Act it acts outside (or despite if you prefer) a contract.  FYI sign a contract for murder and see if a court enforces it.  then ask why a perfectly executed contract won't be enforced.  Law rules contracts.
> 
> In addition to my chat with DVC here is what is on line at Disney now.  Notice it covers room damages, smoking etc.  Again I am not a CC expert but I don't see how taking an extra 100 dollars every time a charge is made can go wrong.  the hold and hold time are not the bill and payment.  I am fairly sure Disney also (or did) check on the remaining balance on a card but not how.  It might be that damage discovered exceeds the CC max after check out.  Still can't see this an owner issue.



The POS does make it clear that you are responsible for your guests,

It appears that they may have stopped the practice, but what Disney has them sign doesn’t take away the responsibilty you agreed to in the POS,

To be clear, they never asked owners to pay but rather held them responsible to make sure they contacted their guest to settle up

I will try today to find the specific language.  But, it is good to know that maybe DVC has reversed how they hold owners responsible.


----------



## suemom2kay

meryll83 said:


> My credit card company are now saying up to 45 days before they’ll be in touch with me just to get some more detail regarding my payment dispute, before even actually getting it submitted!
> 
> Thinking my travel insurance might be the way forward as, (in theory) they have shorter timescales... even if I would lose a small excess fee on the claim.
> 
> However, part of what the insurance claim guidance mentions is required as evidence is a cancellation invoice. I don’t think I can get this from David’s without choosing their option 2, and that leaves me completely empty handed if the insurance claim doesn’t go through...


----------



## starry_solo

@meryll83 : when was your resort reservation?  There should be screenshots dated March 11th or 12th that provide that information as well (about the closure of the hotels).

There are certainly newspaper articles that talk about it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/business/disneyland-coronavirus.html
I'm sure a Disney blog has it listed somewhere as a screenshot.  Heck, it might even be in the Disneyland section of this forum.


----------



## meryll83

starry_solo said:


> @meryll83 : when was your resort reservation?  There should be screenshots dated March 11th or 12th that provide that information as well (about the closure of the hotels).
> 
> There are certainly newspaper articles that talk about it:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/business/disneyland-coronavirus.html
> I'm sure a Disney blog has it listed somewhere as a screenshot.  Heck, it might even be in the Disneyland section of this forum.


Got a screenshot from the DL website dated 16th April which works, as we were due to check in shortly after that.

Thanks all for the help!


----------



## lawboy2001

Sandisw said:


> The POS does make it clear that you are responsible for your guests,
> 
> It appears that they may have stopped the practice, but what Disney has them sign doesn’t take away the responsibilty you agreed to in the POS,
> 
> To be clear, they never asked owners to pay but rather held them responsible to make sure they contacted their guest to settle up
> 
> I will try today to find the specific language.  But, it is good to know that maybe DVC has reversed how they hold owners responsible.



I don't think owners are responsible when Disney accepts an invalid form of payment from a DVC guest.  "Hey DVC Owner!  The CC imprint we took from your guests wasn't honoured because the CC had expired!  Can you track them down and give us the dough pretty please??"  Ummm, no.  No I can't.  That was your job!!


----------



## Sandisw

lawboy2001 said:


> I don't think owners are responsible when Disney accepts an invalid form of payment from a DVC guest.  "Hey DVC Owner!  The CC imprint we took from your guests wasn't honoured because the CC had expired!  Can you track them down and give us the dough pretty please??"  Ummm, no.  No I can't.  That was your job!!



There are many things in the POS that discusses the responsibility and terms of rentals, including the denial of a renter if they do not have a contract with the owner in which agree to abide by terms of the POS...and they dont have to reimburse renter or owner for this in any way,

It also says owners are reasonable for a guest who refuses to leave on time if the next owner or guest can’t get in.  They can fine the DVC owner.

They even reserve the right from time to time to have to approve all rentals, in their sole discretion

Like I said, they used to freeze the accounts, but owners can indeed be held liable in terms of use of their membership.  It may be a practice not in use as much for CC because of the new way they process those,

But, legally, they can hold you as an owner responsible for what rules of the POS any of your guests violate, including room damage,

Davids, or any broker, can not assume this for you,  If one rents, or even books for guests,  I would encourage all owners to know exactly what the POS says in terms of what you agree to when you let others use your membership.

That was really the point I was making.  We assume risks when we let strangers use our membership.


----------



## MICKIMINI

CraigInPA said:


> He needs to amend the current contract if the three parties are still the same, or enter into a new contract if the parties have changed.
> 
> He actually wants to do a new contract, since he gets to charge the new higher rental fee to his Renters. He is, however, sticking it to the Owners by not giving them the new higher fee paid to Owners, unless there are new points involved. And even then, only the new points are paid at the higher rate.
> 
> Such an outstanding example of honorable business practices I have not seen since.....Bernie Madoff.


Ouch!  And I agree!


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

lawboy2001 said:


> I don't think owners are responsible when Disney accepts an invalid form of payment from a DVC guest.  "Hey DVC Owner!  The CC imprint we took from your guests wasn't honoured because the CC had expired!  Can you track them down and give us the dough pretty please??"  Ummm, no.  No I can't.  That was your job!!



They are your "guest" and yes, Disney retains the right to come back to you via DVC.   I've only read about it once or twice and it was resolved between owner and guest.  One would think it was their job and so tough luck on them but Disney/DVC made certain in our agreements that we end up as ultimately responsible.  Nice when it's really all on them but they got to write the contract and no modifications allowed by us.  

However, even so, it's so rare that it's not worth worrying about IMO.  And as I mentioned when I've read about it it's been friends or family of the owner.  Maybe once was not.


----------



## GrumpyInPhilly

Henwen88 said:


> Very well put.  These are my same thoughts, and I have rented points both privately and through David's in the past. I did a transfer last year instead and that was much better than either rental method... points gone, money in bank, hands washed of transaction



I agree.  I've rented thru David's in the past as well and just did a transfer thru the site sponsor.  SO much easier!


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

This is the language I think people are referring to as possibly requiring an owner to stand good for a renter not paying a bill or damaging the room.  Again recall my motto "Law conquers contract".  It this is not the language or there is more I would appreciate being pointed at that.

_*"All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and you will be responsible for the acts or omissions of your renters or any other person or persons you permit to use your reserved Vacation Home." *_

So without being snarky try the criminal or murder hypothetical.  Is an owner responsible for a renter who goes down on points and murders a spouse?  Obviously not.  Yet murder is clearly an act of the renter (for stipulation caught in the act, on video and confession IOW not an evidence thing) and imo murder is a violation of the rules and regulations.

So where is the line between the all inclusive POS language and reality?  Law rules contracts, even recorded contracts.  A criminal act like murder jumps in between the DVC and the owner.  Owners have zero responsibility for criminal acts.  Could running out on charges or damaging other people's property be considered a crime?  A 3rd party that DVC authorizes, Like a CC company that Disney pays for a service does as well.  If Disney decides that in the future owners will need to agree to pay for renter charges/damages it will be different.


----------



## Marionnette

Henwen88 said:


> Very well put.  These are my same thoughts, and I have rented points both privately and through David's in the past.  I did a transfer last year instead and that was much better than either rental method... points gone, money in bank, hands washed of transaction


Do you happen to recall what they charged to act as the intermediary for point transfers? I may end up with more points than I can use next year and definitely don’t want to do any rentals. But I’ve also been gun shy about transfers to strangers. An intermediary would take that worry away.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> This is the language I think people are referring to as possibly requiring an owner to stand good for a renter not paying a bill or damaging the room.  Again recall my motto "Law conquers contract".  It this is not the language or there is more I would appreciate being pointed at that.
> 
> _*"All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and you will be responsible for the acts or omissions of your renters or any other person or persons you permit to use your reserved Vacation Home." *_
> 
> So without being snarky try the criminal or murder hypothetical.  Is an owner responsible for a renter who goes down on points and murders a spouse?  Obviously not.  Yet murder is clearly an act of the renter (for stipulation caught in the act, on video and confession IOW not an evidence thing) and imo murder is a violation of the rules and regulations.
> 
> So where is the line between the all inclusive POS language and reality?  Law rules contracts, even recorded contracts.  A criminal act like murder jumps in between the DVC and the owner.  Owners have zero responsibility for criminal acts.  Could running out on charges or damaging other people's property be considered a crime?  A 3rd party that DVC authorizes, Like a CC company that Disney pays for a service does as well.  If Disney decides that in the future owners will need to agree to pay for renter charges/damages it will be different.



The entire conversation was based on someone posting that the broker takes on the responsibility of the owners and that is not true,

There is much more than that in the POS I have for RIV that is even further defined specifically.

DVCM can indeed freeze your ability to use your account if they have a reason to by acts of your guess that violate the terms and conditions of the POS.  Your example is silly because murder is not part of the terms and conditions of your product.

As said already, it is rare, and May not be used for CC charges, as someone shared a situation in which 8 months went by and they were not effected,

However, to continue to say you cant be held responsible for things renters or your guests do that violate use of the property is not accurate and anyone renting should be sure they understand it and are comfortable with that risk,

A broker offers no protection to this.

ETA:  All POS documents have the information on different pages so in RIV it starts on page 78.


----------



## Bowen Family

This discussion of liability for damages is interesting but a bit off topic, no?


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> This discussion of liability for damages is interesting but a bit off topic, no?



To a certain extent, but it is something related to the broker and what he would owe an owner in his contract and a piece of what may happen after this in terms of owners trusting the broker .


----------



## HuskieJohn

Davids customer here for a 6/19 - 6/28 trip.
We are 51% thinking that we will not be going on our trip.
Any pointers as to best recovery of anything?
I am trying to google the DVC owner to see if we can work something out without David's involvement but that is a long shot.


----------



## GatorD

Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.

Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.


----------



## Sandisw

GatorD said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.
> 
> Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.



Would the travel insurance claim through the CC be the same process as a charge back?

Travel insurance usually covers non refundable costs, where a chargeback is based on not receiving a good or service you paid for,


----------



## cmrdgrs

GatorD said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.
> 
> Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.


As the person that was denied the claim, I would go back to the CC company and point out that your voucher is dependent on the owner that rented you the points signing a new agreement.

IMO, your contract is not with a random owner, but a very specific owner.  David is making a promise on a voucher, but he has nothing in writing between you and the original owner that rented you the points.  Just as the original agreement between you and the original owner was for very specific dates, there needs to be a new agreement with your original owner that they are going to book your new dates.  Without that, I don't see how the voucher holds water.

Where is the new agreement between the parties?  To me, it seems clear that a new agreement needs to be signed between the original three parties.  Without the agreement of the original owner, you don't really have anything.


----------



## GatorD

Sandisw said:


> Would the travel insurance claim through the CC be the same process as a charge back?
> 
> Travel insurance usually covers non refundable costs, where a chargeback is based on not receiving a good or service you paid for,



Different process I think as this was through insurer that is part of my card benefits. I still have option for chargeback which I am considering after reading through all the posts here.


----------



## Bowen Family

GatorD said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.
> 
> Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.



Thanks for sharing this. We need to decide what we’re going to about the voucher offer for our May 10 reservation, so this is helpful.

And I disagree with the CC company interpretation that the voucher is full value. It carries new risk that the original contract didn’t; specifically that David’s can alter the new credit at any time, and that by accepting terms of the credit, we accept this possibility without recourse. Until/unless one has actually completed their rebooked DVC stay, that is a lot less value and a whole lot more uncertainty. Just my opinion.


----------



## McCrae

Bowen Family said:


> Thanks for sharing this. We need to decide what we’re going to about the voucher offer for our May 10 reservation, so this is helpful.
> 
> And I disagree with the CC company interpretation that the voucher is full value. It carries new risk that the original contract didn’t; specifically that David’s can alter the new credit at any time, and that by accepting terms of the credit, we accept this possibility without recourse. Until/unless one has actually completed their rebooked DVC stay, that is a lot less value and a whole lot more uncertainty. Just my opinion.



Does this not only relate to Holiday insurance with the credit card company? A credit card charge back request is different.

I can understand why the insurance claim wouldn't work. 

Paypal according to a poster on this thread have also declined to settle the claim in favour of the renter.

IMO CC charge back has always been the most likely option to succeed. I guess we will probably need to wait maybe 1-2 months before we know what is happening.


----------



## Marionnette

HuskieJohn said:


> Davids customer here for a 6/19 - 6/28 trip.
> We are 51% thinking that we will not be going on our trip.
> Any pointers as to best recovery of anything?
> I am trying to google the DVC owner to see if we can work something out without David's involvement but that is a long shot.


If the resorts are open when your dates roll around, I don’t think you can get a refund. DVC will not be automatically canceling reservations if they are open. The owner will not be getting their points back if you don’t show up. And the way David’s has been doing business, I would not expect any leniency on their no-refunds policy.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Bowen Family said:


> Thanks for sharing this. We need to decide what we’re going to about the voucher offer for our May 10 reservation, so this is helpful.
> 
> And I disagree with the CC company interpretation that the voucher is full value. It carries new risk that the original contract didn’t; specifically that David’s can alter the new credit at any time, and that by accepting terms of the credit, we accept this possibility without recourse. Until/unless one has actually completed their rebooked DVC stay, that is a lot less value and a whole lot more uncertainty. Just my opinion.


David IMO can't issue a credit on points he doesn't own nor can guarantee. I'd definitely point out that David can cancel the voucher for any reason at any time.


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> David IMO can't issue a credit on points he doesn't own nor can guarantee. I'd definitely point out that David can cancel the voucher for any reason at any time.


The credit voucher is not exclusively for points - my understanding is that the voucher can be redeemed for cash stays, cruises, and other Disney travel.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> The credit voucher is not exclusively for points - my understanding is that the voucher can be redeemed for cash stays, cruises, and other Disney travel.



Still require him to generate income from point rentals


----------



## momincolorado

GatorD said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.
> 
> Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.


The cc travel insurance and the chargeback are two different things. I would call Citi and let them know that you are looking to dispute the charge based on services/goods not provided. They will ask you a bunch of questions - who cancelled the reservation, for what dates was the reservation etc and may request documentation, i.e. cancellation notice, to initiate the chargeback (they can also request this at a later time). Once you dispute the charge, you should see the credit temporarily back on your account while you await final resolution. Quite a few renters on this thread have chargebacks pending and we don’t know yet what the final outcome will be but we do know that this is currently the only possible way to obtain a refund.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> The credit voucher is not exclusively for points - my understanding is that the voucher can be redeemed for cash stays, cruises, and other Disney travel.


But, it also can be canceled by David at any time at his discretion, no?


----------



## cmrdgrs

momincolorado said:


> The cc travel insurance and the chargeback are two different things. I would call Citi and let them know that you are looking to dispute the charge based on services/goods not provided. They will ask you a bunch of questions - who cancelled the reservation, for what dates was the reservation etc and may request documentation, i.e. cancellation notice, to initiate the chargeback (they can also request this at a later time). Once you dispute the charge, you should see the credit temporarily back on your account while you await final resolution. Quite a few renters on this thread have chargebacks pending and we don’t know yet what the final outcome will be but we do know that this is currently the only possible way to obtain a refund.


If denied you can resubmit new information upon denial. This happened to me once and I resubmitted in that instance and was granted my chargeback after resubmitting more information


----------



## nagshead

Agree with this. I’d appeal to the credit card. What happens if David’s goes out of business? These vouchers will be worth nothing and you won’t be able to file with credit card because you will be out of the window to file claims (I think this window varies by credit card).


----------



## Galun

GatorD said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.
> 
> Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.



If they approve your insurance claim, citi / their insurance underwriter is paying out.  Citi is incentivized to follow the exact rules and look for every reason to deny you.

If they approve your chargeback, David's is paying out, not Citi nor their insurance underwriter.  Citi will have to follow the chargeback rules, but their incentive is aligned with you, who is their customer.

Do the chargeback.


----------



## Amymouse13

My Citi dispute says online he has responded and they will let me know after they review whatever he said/sent.  I thought David's would wait til June, but they didn't.  We'll see... Lol


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> My Citi dispute says online he has responded and they will let me know after they review whatever he said/sent.  I thought David's would wait til June, but they didn't.  We'll see... Lol





Amymouse13 said:


> My Citi dispute says online he has responded and they will let me know after they review whatever he said/sent.  I thought David's would wait til June, but they didn't.  We'll see... Lol



It reads asthough David's are confident they are correct, otherwise no reason for them to respond quickly.


----------



## Amymouse13

McCrae said:


> It reads asthough David's are confident they are correct, otherwise no reason for them to respond quickly.



Right, they believe the voucher program is a solution I'm sure.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Full value voucher ?? Hmm vouchers have no value read the rules he listed 
I believe (my thoughts ) the credit card co May thinks these vouchers are like airline vouchers and they are not - even airlines are a bit more flexible than this - you at least have a chance to use your airline voucher.


----------



## Madame

WDWEPCOT said:


> Full value voucher ?? Hmm vouchers have no value read the rules he listed
> I believe (my thoughts ) the credit card co May thinks these vouchers are like airline vouchers and they are not - even airlines are a bit more flexible than this - you at least have a chance to use your airline voucher.


I think those filing a charge back are going to have to get very detailed (broken contract, forced to accept new contract, David’s ability to revoke/change said contract on a whim) if they want to see a reimbursement.  That’s why many of us owners are angry - we are supposed to give the money back, & THIS is what renters are getting???  

I knew the voucher system would make a chargeback harder.  That’s exactly why the only consistent messaging coming from David’s to ALL owners is to not cancel the reservation - then renters would be due a refund.   Owners, however, don’t want to be the party breaking the contract and perhaps subjecting themselves to further liability.  This is so shady...


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m on both sides - I rented and rented out - I myself contacted one of my renters and David was onboard then he stopped speaking to my renter -?? Their new dates are coming up I guess I will contact them again and see what is going on if they were offered a voucher and accepted it ?? I’m holding no hope for my 30% and I have 2 more rentals this year 
As for my rental - he flat refused to even deal with me nice ammunition for the charge back


----------



## Henwen88

Marionnette said:


> Do you happen to recall what they charged to act as the intermediary for point transfers? I may end up with more points than I can use next year and definitely don’t want to do any rentals. But I’ve also been gun shy about transfers to strangers. An intermediary would take that worry away.



I actually transferred to a 'stranger' from an ad on the rent/trade board.  We had a contract, did the whole 3 way call to MS to confirm points, paypal payment then immediate transfer.  I agree that it was a bit scary knowing the finality of the transaction and ALL of the things that could go wrong though!  I would also be interested in the fees for the board sponsor for transfers.


----------



## tubtruck

People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.


----------



## McCrae

Amymouse13 said:


> Right, they believe the voucher program is a solution I'm sure.



I would be surprised if David's hadn't taken legal advice and are responding based on that. If they were not confident why would they respond so quickly? Time will tell.

Interesting to note that in Europe the EU has ruled that airlines can issue vouchers and are not required to make cash refunds.


----------



## Bowen Family

Another poster said: People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, *in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.*
As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.
[/QUOTE]


Honest question. Do airlines include caveats like these when offering their vouchers:


David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
Because these are my primary concerns with the voucher. These give David’s permission to keep or cancel the credit without cause, and by accepting these terms you’ve given them that permission without any recourse.

So let’s say my current owner rebooks or uses the points I’ve already paid for. They’re made whole. Great! I’m glad for them.

But I use my credit to book either a cash room or DVC res and the resorts close again. Or David’s just doesn’t have the cash in reserve or available points to make good on the credit. David’s keeps either the cash room refund from Disney, or if DVC, my original payment for my current res. And the renter gets what exactly? Nothing.

So how does all of this compare to airline vouchers? Because airlines offer a service they own. Much different scenario here.


----------



## cmrdgrs

nagshead said:


> Agree with this. I’d appeal to the credit card. What happens if David’s goes out of business? These vouchers will be worth nothing and you won’t be able to file with credit card because you will be out of the window to file claims (I think this window varies by credit card).


I would highlight the following:

1) terms of the voucher - the cancelation part in particular

2) that you have no new signed agreement with the original owner that rented you the points. This broker works off of agreements. Where is the new signed agreement.

IMO, the credit card company will not care about the argument the broker could go under.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Bowen Family said:


> Another poster said: People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
> As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.
> 
> 
> Honest question. Do airlines include caveats like these when offering their vouchers:
> 
> 
> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
> Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
> Because these are my primary concerns with the voucher. These give David’s permission to keep or cancel the credit without cause, and by accepting these terms you’ve given them that permission without any recourse.
> 
> So let’s say my current owner rebooks or uses the points I’ve already paid for. They’re made whole. Great! I’m glad for them.
> 
> But I use my credit to book either a cash room or DVC res and the resorts close again. Or David’s just doesn’t have the cash in reserve or available points to make good on the credit. David’s keeps either the cash room refund from Disney, or if DVC, my original payment for my current res. And the renter gets what exactly? Nothing.
> 
> So how does all of this compare to airline vouchers? Because airlines offer a service they own. Much different scenario here.



The airlines are getting bailouts


----------



## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> I would be surprised if David's hadn't taken legal advice and are responding based on that. If they were not confident why would they respond so quickly? Time will tell.
> 
> Interesting to note that in Europe the EU has ruled that airlines can issue vouchers and are not required to make cash refunds.



when did the EU rule on that?


----------



## CraigInPA

tubtruck said:


> People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
> As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.



The voucher has value only if it can be redeemed. If you want to stay on a particular date, there has to be availability. If there is no availability, the voucher has no value. David's, and David's alone, tells you whether there is availability, which is a situation ripe for abuse. A certain number of voucher holders may never redeem the voucher based upon their own circumstances changing. A renter accepting the voucher, with the wording allowing David's to change the terms or cancel it at any time for any reason, is accepting a lesser product than what they initially agreed to purchase. These vouchers have a stated value of $0 because David's does not want to issue refunds. They are chits for product he sells, and can't be used or exchanged elsewhere. It's my theory that in the event of bankruptcy, the travel industry underwriting insurance may say these vouchers have a value of $0 because there is no other Canadian travel agency that will accept them with any value.

Having been in the payment card industry for 40 years, I can tell you that it is highly likely that chargebacks will be successful. Credit card issuers tend to side with their customers, not the merchants, unless that customer has a pattern of disputes. Beyond David's agreement, there exists consumer protection laws regarding paying for a particular product and it not being given that product. Despite David's insistence that the terms were "no refunds, no changes", he failed to deliver the reservation. He is in breach, and he needs to make good on that. The vouchers are not in the original agreement, and they are not out of the goodness of his heart, they are specifically designed to prevent people from issuing chargebacks. David's knows his company will likely lose every chargeback, so decreasing the number of chargebacks filed is the goal.


----------



## cmrdgrs

tubtruck said:


> People saying the voucher has no value are inncorect. It has a value of what people initially paid for in points. It only has no value if not redeemed or if David goes out of business. At present he is still in business. The voucher is not dependent on anyone having the exact same owner provide the points, in the same way as cancelled flight voucher used on the same route will not have the same crew, plane or pilot.
> As I mentioned many pages ago, my own experience of chargeback, I think it unlikely in the present circumstances that people will get a successful chargeback from their credit card company given David’s initial terms and their “over and above” offer of a voucher.


The original contract was signed with a particular owner. It is not just a contract with anyone - it is with a particular person, for a particular resort for specific dates. Where is the paperwork from the person I rented with on my reservation that was canceled assuring they will be able to rent to me again?


----------



## CraigInPA

DisneyBB said:


> when did the EU rule on that?



The EU, in the announcement that allowed the airlines to issue vouchers for future flights, specifically stated that they were doing this because of the high potential for the airlines entering bankruptcy if they did not.

In the US, the government has injected hundreds of millions of dollars into the airlines to keep them afloat and allow them to offer cash refunds.


----------



## yankeesfan123

https://online-learning.harvard.edu/course/contractsx-trust-promise-contract?delta=1
For anyone interested!

Its free.


----------



## cmrdgrs

If I were arguing for a chargeback I would focus on the original contract. No substitutions, no sublets, that the contract clearly ties you to a very particular owner.


----------



## cmrdgrs

yankeesfan123 said:


> https://online-learning.harvard.edu/course/contractsx-trust-promise-contract?delta=1
> For anyone interested!
> 
> Its free.


But, this is more fun. After you take it let us know what you find out


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

Apologies if I missed it, but are there any reports of anyone that has successfully USED their voucher to book something...either a DVC stay or cash stay?


----------



## yankeesfan123

cmrdgrs said:


> But, this is more fun. After you take it let us know what you find out


I’m already a lawyer but I need continuing education credits so I might take it anyways!


----------



## yankeesfan123

chicagodisneyguy said:


> Apologies if I missed it, but are there any reports of anyone that has successfully USED their voucher to book something...either a DVC stay or cash stay?


I doubt there will be any issues at this early stage in actually being able to “book” using the voucher. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I’m more concerned about actually booking the room and resort I actually want, and then what might happen in David’s goes under if I don’t use the voucher for a year or two.


----------



## fancymouse

I hope this is okay to ask here, but I've looked elsewhere for how other brokers are handling the situation and seen nowhere near as much specific information. Are other big brokers handling their rentals differently? On a different platform someone mentioned that another big broker is giving refunds (I tried to name the broker, but the system seemed to think my post was spam, so I removed the name?? Sorry I am new to this). This sounded incorrect, but I wan't sure. I would think that all brokers would be in a similar situation, but if anyone has any insight on if there are other ways it was being handled I'd love to know! People on other platforms seem quick to make it sound as if one company is better than another right now, but to me they all seem similar (at least in this situation).

We rented points through David's for November, so I have been actively following this thread partially out of invested interest and partially out of curiosity. This is such a complicated situation all around!


----------



## Bowen Family

chicagodisneyguy said:


> Apologies if I missed it, but are there any reports of anyone that has successfully USED their voucher to book something...either a DVC stay or cash stay?



I’ve been following this and other threads pretty closely to try and gauge which way this voucher system is going. My totally unofficial scoreboard so far from the posts I’ve read:

Rebookings: no reports yet

CC Chargebacks: multiple claims filed. Seems June will be the earliest we’ll see outcomes. 

CC Travel Insurance claim: one recent report it was denied on basis of voucher, but option to re-file within 1 year if voucher not used. 

Anyone else have a different tally? Maybe this should become its own thread...


----------



## DisneyBB

CraigInPA said:


> The EU, in the announcement that allowed the airlines to issue vouchers for future flights, specifically stated that they were doing this because of the high potential for the airlines entering bankruptcy if they did not.
> 
> In the US, the government has injected hundreds of millions of dollars into the airlines to keep them afloat and allow them to offer cash refunds.


That’s not my understanding, EU have said they have to give refunds and not insist on vouchers.  BA have to give refunds if asked, can offer refunds in voucher form but cannot enforce it. Just got a refund for my Italian trip from BA.  waiting to see about my Florida flight.  Unless I have missed an announcement.

Sorry this is off topic, but wanted to reply.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I believe I posted this before but if not - per my conversation with Chase - if you have a voucher you will or can’t use because of covid it is a chargeback


----------



## Bowen Family

WDWEPCOT said:


> I believe I posted this before but if not - per my conversation with Chase - if you have a voucher you will or can’t use because of covid it is a chargeback



I missed this if you did indeed post it earlier. Can you please elaborate a bit on this? Are you saying Chase’s position is that a chargeback is the appropriate avenue after they were informed of details on the voucher?


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> That’s not my understanding, EU have said they have to give refunds and not insist on vouchers.  BA have to give refunds if asked, can offer refunds in voucher form but cannot enforce it. Just got a refund for my Italian trip from BA.  waiting to see about my Florida flight.  Unless I have missed an announcement.
> 
> Sorry this is off topic, but wanted to reply.



The EU has changed its policy from the one you quote. Only recently announced.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> when did the EU rule on that?


Today. We are living in very strange times. Situations where normally you would expect to be a slam dunk charge back are no longer so certain.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bowen Family said:


> I’ve been following this and other threads pretty closely to try and gauge which way this voucher system is going. My totally unofficial scoreboard so far from the posts I’ve read:
> 
> Rebookings: no reports yet
> 
> CC Chargebacks: multiple claims filed. Seems June will be the earliest we’ll see outcomes.
> 
> CC Travel Insurance claim: one recent report it was denied on basis of voucher, but option to re-file within 1 year if voucher not used.
> 
> Anyone else have a different tally? Maybe this should become its own thread...


Love the idea!  I think you need to add insurance that is not CC related and results.  I will add that the renters took the voucher from Dave primarily for 2 reasons.  I did contract them directly to confirm and for their trip, scheduled to being May 29 they did not want to be in a position of making the decision to go or not go at some point in between the 29th and now.  And they really like the 24 months to use.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I was talking about vouchers and how I didn’t believe I would be able to use it and Chase stated it was unacceptable I should do a chargeback if I paid for a service I did not receive or have a voucher I can’t use it is grounds for a chargeback because of covid


----------



## AaronEuth

Anyone doing charge backs should also include in their chargeback the voucher is only good for the original value.  Nothing prevents Davids from raising the cost per point, decreasing the effective value of the voucher.   I do believe he has already increased the cost per point slightly since this already happened.   

If David's ends up upside down in regards to more vouchers being issued than he has funds to pay owners, a dirty solution is to further increase the charge per point and increase his portion with it.


----------



## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> Today. We are living in very strange times. Situations where normally you would expect to be a slam dunk charge back are no longer so certain.


Ok thank you didn’t realise they had changed.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I am Not saying a Chargeback will work - I am just letting you know what Chase said to me when I spoke with them regarding doing a chargeback.  I agree this is a strange times .


----------



## GrumpyInPhilly

Henwen88 said:


> I actually transferred to a 'stranger' from an ad on the rent/trade board.  We had a contract, did the whole 3 way call to MS to confirm points, paypal payment then immediate transfer.  I agree that it was a bit scary knowing the finality of the transaction and ALL of the things that could go wrong though!  *I would also be interested in the fees for the board sponsor for transfers.*



Owner receives $15.50 pp.  Renter pays either $19 or $20 pp depending on resort.


----------



## Megan Kenworthy

Has anyone else received an email from David's that includes -

"Before reaching out to the owner of your June reservation, I just wanted to make sure that you do not plan on traveling at all regardless of the status.  *If that is not the case, please let me know* but I just wanted to ask before reaching out to those owners. "

I have an early June reservation. Is David's thinking renters will commit to not traveling and then won't qualify for or pursue a charge back (they would have documentation that the renter wasn't going to accept/keep the service anyway)? I spoke with David's on the phone and she insisted I respond via email to this request (documentation?)


----------



## banzai75

Megan Kenworthy said:


> Has anyone else received an email from David's that includes -
> 
> "Before reaching out to the owner of your June reservation, I just wanted to make sure that you do not plan on traveling at all regardless of the status.  *If that is not the case, please let me know* but I just wanted to ask before reaching out to those owners. "
> 
> I have an early June reservation. Is David's thinking renters will commit to not traveling and then won't qualify for or pursue a charge back (they would have documentation that the renter wasn't going to accept/keep the service anyway)? I spoke with David's on the phone and she insisted I respond via email to this request (documentation?)



Sounds suspect. Almost as if they want you to say you aren’t going and can use that against your credit chargeback later.

even if they reach out to the owner David isn’t rebooking.  Sounds like he just wants documentation and then get owner to rebook his points into the voucher system.


----------



## Sandisw

Megan Kenworthy said:


> Has anyone else received an email from David's that includes -
> 
> "Before reaching out to the owner of your June reservation, I just wanted to make sure that you do not plan on traveling at all regardless of the status.  *If that is not the case, please let me know* but I just wanted to ask before reaching out to those owners. "
> 
> I have an early June reservation. Is David's thinking renters will commit to not traveling and then won't qualify for or pursue a charge back (they would have documentation that the renter wasn't going to accept/keep the service anyway)? I spoke with David's on the phone and she insisted I respond via email to this request (documentation?)



Yes, that would be my take,  I am not sure that I would respond other than to say that when or if you change plans you will let them know


----------



## DisneyBB

banzai75 said:


> Sounds suspect. Almost as if they want you to say you aren’t going and can use that against your credit chargeback later.
> 
> even if they reach out to the owner David isn’t rebooking.  Sounds like he just wants documentation and then get owner to rebook his points into the voucher system.


David is rebooking, my renter was coming in August and I rebooked then jan at their request via David.  I did reach out to David and asked him to ask.


----------



## Diswiz99

DisneyBB said:


> David is rebooking, my renter was coming in August and I rebooked then jan at their request via David.  I did reach out to David and asked him to ask.


I just got off the phone with them and was told they are doing absolutely NO rebooking without using the voucher system and rebooking past August. I repeatedly asked to keep the same owner and move my June trip back to late June or July and she said they are not doing it AT ALL.


----------



## SeaDis

I read way back in this thread that David's not able to receive from/send to Comcast emails due to a server upgrade.  Is anyone with Comcast communicating with them currently?  I'm not getting any response and wondering which is the case.    Thanks!


----------



## Cyberc1978

McCrae said:


> I would be surprised if David's hadn't taken legal advice and are responding based on that. If they were not confident why would they respond so quickly? Time will tell.
> 
> Interesting to note that in Europe the EU has ruled that airlines can issue vouchers and are not required to make cash refunds.



Are you sure about that? I heard yesterday that 12 countries was asking the EU commission about them allowing or Accepting airlines to issue vouchers instead of refunds. The matter does however need to be takes up in the EU parliament and approved, Lucky not all countries In the EU agrees.  The parliament is much more into protecting the consumer than the business. 

Also the ministers from each country is having a meeting today and from my understand regardless of their opinions the parliament still need to approve.




CraigInPA said:


> The EU, in the announcement that allowed the airlines to issue vouchers for future flights, specifically stated that they were doing this because of the high potential for the airlines entering bankruptcy if they did not.
> 
> In the US, the government has injected hundreds of millions of dollars into the airlines to keep them afloat and allow them to offer cash refunds.



seems that some countries are just taking a s... on EU laws and regulations. But for now consumers can ask for a chargeback from their CC and get their money back.


McCrae said:


> Today. We are living in very strange times. Situations where normally you would expect to be a slam dunk charge back are no longer so certain.


Just file for a chargeback and that should be a slam dunk as each country have their own set of chargeback rules. The rules In my country superseded the airlines rules In another country.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

banzai75 said:


> Sounds suspect. Almost as if they want you to say you aren’t going and can use that against your credit chargeback later.
> 
> even if they reach out to the owner David isn’t rebooking.  Sounds like he just wants documentation and then get owner to rebook his points into the voucher system.


A few weeks ago I was emailing David about this.  What was infuriating to me was my 'window' to bank was open till the end of April, the trip was for May 29 and the family had 3 kids all under 7.  IMO what the renter wanted to do was the entire key because any other outcome was possible.  It took David until 11 days ago to reach out to the renter to see what they wanted.  now it is solved.
IMO David made things much worse for most by refusing communication.  I see this a giant step in the right direction.

That said the language you were responding to is not just odd but a bit suspicious especially if the email was not in response to the renter bringing up a change of dates.


----------



## ScubaCat

Diswiz99 said:


> I just got off the phone with them and was told they are doing absolutely NO rebooking without using the voucher system and rebooking past August. I repeatedly asked to keep the same owner and move my June trip back to late June or July and she said they are not doing it AT ALL.



I wonder if that's intended to bring the transaction under the updated contract terms? (Sorry if that's been discussed; I'm a bit behind on this one!)


----------



## Diswiz99

ScubaCat said:


> I wonder if that's intended to bring the transaction under the updated contract terms? (Sorry if that's been discussed; I'm a bit behind on this one!)


I believe so.


----------



## ScubaCat

Diswiz99 said:


> I believe so.



Ok, that would make sense.  Otherwise making the change should be fairly simple.


----------



## VeroGuy

Megan Kenworthy said:


> Has anyone else received an email from David's that includes -
> 
> "Before reaching out to the owner of your June reservation, I just wanted to make sure that you do not plan on traveling at all regardless of the status.  *If that is not the case, please let me know* but I just wanted to ask before reaching out to those owners. "
> 
> I have an early June reservation. Is David's thinking renters will commit to not traveling and then won't qualify for or pursue a charge back (they would have documentation that the renter wasn't going to accept/keep the service anyway)? I spoke with David's on the phone and she insisted I respond via email to this request (documentation?)


I have an early June reservation also and have not received anything as of yet. If I may ask, when did you receive this email?


----------



## DisneyBB

Diswiz99 said:


> I just got off the phone with them and was told they are doing absolutely NO rebooking without using the voucher system and rebooking past August. I repeatedly asked to keep the same owner and move my June trip back to late June or July and she said they are not doing it AT ALL.


Not sure, .  Maybe the policy has changed since I did my change for my renter.


----------



## tubtruck

With regard to European airlines, they are simply ignoring the law. Ryanair for instance has now said, yes you can have a refund rather than a voucher. We can give you the  voucher now. However we cannot process a cash refund while the covid 19 pandemic is happening as a large part of our staff have are not essential. We will process a cash refund once the pandemic has ended. This may though be in 12 months time.


----------



## Cyberc1978

tubtruck said:


> With regard to European airlines, they are simply ignoring the law. Ryanair for instance has now said, yes you can have a refund rather than a voucher. We can give you the  voucher now. However we cannot process a cash refund while the covid 19 pandemic is happening as a large part of our staff have are not essential. We will process a cash refund once the pandemic has ended. This may though be in 12 months time.


If it was me I’d do a charge back. The money will do more good in my pocket and I can’t buy food for my family with a voucher.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Megan Kenworthy said:


> Has anyone else received an email from David's that includes -
> 
> "Before reaching out to the owner of your June reservation, I just wanted to make sure that you do not plan on traveling at all regardless of the status.  *If that is not the case, please let me know* but I just wanted to ask before reaching out to those owners. "
> 
> I have an early June reservation. Is David's thinking renters will commit to not traveling and then won't qualify for or pursue a charge back (they would have documentation that the renter wasn't going to accept/keep the service anyway)? I spoke with David's on the phone and she insisted I respond via email to this request (documentation?)


Why is anyone talking to David? Last I checked he isn't talking to renters or owners.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> Full value voucher ?? Hmm vouchers have no value read the rules he listed
> I believe (my thoughts ) the credit card co May thinks these vouchers are like airline vouchers and they are not - even airlines are a bit more flexible than this - you at least have a chance to use your airline voucher.


If you book a flight with your airline voucher and that flight is subsequently cancelled, you should still be able to use the voucher for a future booking.  But if you book with David's voucher and the resorts close again during your dates, there are no re-bookings allowed.  You get one chance to redeem it.  If something goes wrong, you forfeit the voucher and...


----------



## WDWEPCOT

That’s what I’m saying !! I don’t think the credit card co understands this when they hear voucher and these vouchers don’t have value from this broker by the way he does business - he can’t be trusted !


----------



## Indy2018

After reading most of this and trying to understand... has anyone been able to use a the voucher?  I know the owner that we were renting from decided to "keep" their points. I am thinking we just have to wait and hope that someone else will be willing to work with Dave's to rent to us and hope that it is in a timeframe that we can go. Is that what most people are thinking?


----------



## VeroGuy

Indy2018 said:


> After reading most of this and trying to understand... has anyone been able to use a the voucher?  I know the owner that we were renting from decided to "keep" their points. I am thinking we just have to wait and hope that someone else will be willing to work with Dave's to rent to us and hope that it is in a timeframe that we can go. Is that what most people are thinking?


From what others are saying David’s is not booking anything for this summer with the voucher. If people have accepted it they have not been able to use it at this point.

I asked a few pages ago if anyone has accepted the voucher and if the amount was for the original amount paid to David’s or if he was taking out his commission, but I haven’t gotten a response. My question is if, say for instance, my original reservation was for $3000 is David’s taking a cut from this when I go to rebook a cash reservation? I assume he will. What is the cut, 20%, 30%?

I think that if we are forced into taking the voucher I won’t be doing a point reservation again, but that’s just my opinion.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

VeroGuy said:


> From what others are saying David’s is not booking anything for this summer with the voucher. If people have accepted it they have not been able to use it at this point.
> 
> I asked a few pages ago if anyone has accepted the voucher and if the amount was for the original amount paid to David’s or if he was taking out his commission, but I haven’t gotten a response. My question is if, say for instance, my original reservation was for $3000 is David’s taking a cut from this when I go to rebook a cash reservation? I assume he will. What is the cut, 20%, 30%?
> 
> I think that if we are forced into taking the voucher I won’t be doing a point reservation again, but that’s just my opinion.



I think he will certainly be taking his commission again from a points rental, as it is built into the cost of the rental and it can be argued the company is doing the work for 2 reservations (she tries not to say in a snarky tone).

With a Disney cash reservation, correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t the commission be paid by Disney and not impact on your cost? That’s how Disney travel agents work, right? No extra cost to the guest but a kick back by Disney?


----------



## foodiddiedoo

foodiddiedoo said:


> CC Dispute update.  My CC issuer has asked me to provide a detailed email showing that my reservation was canceled (I just did a screenshot of Aulani's website showing all reservations will be automatically canceled for DVC) and why I am requesting a dispute (should be obvious, I didn't cancel, I didn't get an product, I paid a considerable chunk of change).  I also did a screenshot of the portion of the contract stating that a renter will be due a refund if no suitable accomodations can be given, and the blanket email that said "hey we will get back to you" which they never did after I asked about my reservation being potentially canceled.  I made sure to mention that David's is not offering any cash refunds.  I didn't say anything about the voucher because I don't want to further complicate matters, and the voucher is an entirely new contract that I did not agree to (still sitting in my inbox being ignored right now).  Anyone else hear anything from their CC companies?


So this morning I went to look at my bank account and I have two negative transactions on my credit card for "Adjusted Amounts" totaling the David's transactions.  I called the CC company and they said they issued a provisional credit because they felt like I was going to win my dispute based upon the information I provided, but to still wait a month or so because there's always a chance it could fall through.  They said they still had to give the vendor some more time to respond, but that I should probably have a letter stating the conclusion of the investigation in one month.  David's has yet to respond at all.  Seems promising!


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Bowen Family said:


> I missed this if you did indeed post it earlier. Can you please elaborate a bit on this? Are you saying Chase’s position is that a chargeback is the appropriate avenue after they were informed of details on the voucher?


I didn't even mention the voucher in my charge-back case as I have just ignored the email.  Surprisingly I haven't had an email from David's taking the voucher back until the dispute is "resolved".  Other posters have mentioned that.  Perhaps it's because I haven't responded at all.


----------



## VeroGuy

DGsAtBLT said:


> I think he will certainly be taking his commission again from a points rental, as it is built into the cost of the rental and it can be argued the company is doing the work for 2 reservations (she tries not to say in a snarky tone).
> 
> With a Disney cash reservation, correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t the commission be paid by Disney and not impact on your cost? That’s how Disney travel agents work, right? No extra cost to the guest but a kick back by Disney?


I’m not sure how it works with a Disney travel agency as I have always booked direct through Disney when not renting points. Maybe someone else can answer this question?  I’m still curious how this will work out. Thanks for the reply!


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> I think he will certainly be taking his commission again from a points rental, as it is built into the cost of the rental and it can be argued the company is doing the work for 2 reservations (she tries not to say in a snarky tone).
> 
> With a Disney cash reservation, correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t the commission be paid by Disney and not impact on your cost? That’s how Disney travel agents work, right? No extra cost to the guest but a kick back by Disney?



Typically, yes,  What we don’t know is what rate Davids will be charging those with vouchers for cash reservations.  Will it be rack rates? Or, will he offer the specials that Disney has?

From my reading, the voucher will be for the total paid, which includes his initial commission.  However, if his rates are up or I’d the cash reservation from Disney is more than the voucher, the renter will pay.

I too would only go with a Disney reservation, but more so because you have an easier chance to find something.

Everything is still dependent on him having future owners to rent points to pay for trades, even those choosing Disney.  I bet that is why he isn’t accepting use of vouchers this summer,  He has to make sure he is getting new rentals.

Right now, all these renters are eligible for the free dining promotion and Davids, IMO, should be working to get those booked if they want that,  The fact that he is not is telling.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I would think you could use the fact he will not book the voucher in your charge back - again he is offering something you can’t use ! Remember what Chase said to me - a voucher you can’t use is a charge back


----------



## cvjw

SeaDis said:


> I read way back in this thread that David's not able to receive from/send to Comcast emails due to a server upgrade.  Is anyone with Comcast communicating with them currently?  I'm not getting any response and wondering which is the case.    Thanks!



they do not receive Comcast emails and can’t send emails to Comcast accounts. You have to use a different email account to talk to them, or use one of their private email addresses. I have one if you pm me


----------



## TheWheel

tubtruck said:


> With regard to European airlines, they are simply ignoring the law. Ryanair for instance has now said, yes you can have a refund rather than a voucher. We can give you the  voucher now. However we cannot process a cash refund while the covid 19 pandemic is happening as a large part of our staff have are not essential. We will process a cash refund once the pandemic has ended. This may though be in 12 months time.


Ryanair are actually offering "Front Of The Line" for refunds tickets for purchase. Could you imagine if David's tried something like that?


----------



## cmrdgrs

Indy2018 said:


> After reading most of this and trying to understand... has anyone been able to use a the voucher?  I know the owner that we were renting from decided to "keep" their points. I am thinking we just have to wait and hope that someone else will be willing to work with Dave's to rent to us and hope that it is in a timeframe that we can go. Is that what most people are thinking?


This is _*exactly*_ my point about why David cannot issue a "credit voucher" without the original owner.  Your original contract with David is not with any random owner -- it is with a specific owner.  If that owner is keeping their points (whatever that means) and gave back the money to David, you in turn deserve your money back too. This is the argument to make IMHO with the credit card companies.  If David recieved money back from the original owner, he should in turn be returning that money to the rightful owners -- THE RENTERS!


----------



## cmrdgrs

SeaDis said:


> I read way back in this thread that David's not able to receive from/send to Comcast emails due to a server upgrade.  Is anyone with Comcast communicating with them currently?  I'm not getting any response and wondering which is the case.    Thanks!





cvjw said:


> they do not receive Comcast emails and can’t send emails to Comcast accounts. You have to use a different email account to talk to them, or use one of their private email addresses. I have one if you pm me



Really?  IMO (based on the fact that I host my own email and have business level internet) the only reason David would be banned from sending emails to Comcast account is because he has been marked with Comcast as a spammer and/or he is using residential internet and is too cheap to pay for business level internet.  This is so ridiculous considering he owns a web development and hosting company.  Seriously David?  You can't fix this?


----------



## cvjw

cmrdgrs said:


> Really?  IMO (based on the fact that I host my own email and have business level internet) the only reason David would be banned from sending emails to Comcast account is because he has been marked with Comcast as a spammer and/or he is using residential internet and is too cheap to pay for business level internet.  This is so ridiculous considering he owns a web development and hosting company.  Seriously David?  You can't fix this?



I was told late last year that they went to a new server and the server was marking all Comcast emails as junk, so they couldn’t send or receive them. That was literally over 6 months ago, so seems like they could have fixed it by now. Especially since Comcast email addresses are so prevalent in the US, and that is where their point renters live. As of last month, they were still using their personal email addresses when they needed to get in touch with me - I only have a Comcast email address


----------



## kmermaid

I have a comcast email address and have received emails from team@dvcrequest.com.  The last email exchange was on 04/27/20 so very recent.  Maybe I am not understanding the comcast situation.


----------



## Fred M

Bowen Family said:


> Can anyone think of any reason David’s would resist contacting the owner about deferring my reservation for 1 year? That’s what I’ve asked them to do and am awaiting a response. Our 1 week AKL stay is mid-May 2020, so technically not yet cancelled, but I want to be pro-active about asking the owner to try on June 1, 2020 to re-book our 1 week stay for May 2021. Seems a very simple way to resolve this, as the # of points and booking season are the same. No voucher, no refunds, just a deferral. Any thoughts on how David’s will respond. Because this is the only solution I’m interested in. If they refuse to act as my “intermediary” on this, we’ll just initiate a chargeback. Hope it doesn’t come to that.



There's no reason for David's not to contact the owner and see if it's possible. But there could be a lot of reasons why, beyond banking and borrowing issues, the owner has to use the points personally: they haven't personally used their points in the past two years; anniversary; big birthday (50th, 60th, etc.); wedding gift; family coming to Florida; and the desire for traveling outside their home in 2021.  So while the transaction is very simple, the reasons why an owner rents points aren't.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Diswiz99 said:


> ... they are doing absolutely NO rebooking without using the voucher system and rebooking past August.





VeroGuy said:


> ...David’s is not booking anything for this summer with the voucher.





Sandisw said:


> ... he isn’t accepting use of vouchers this summer


So, if I have this straight, David's extended the expiration of the voucher from 12 months to 24 months, except he won't redeem these vouchers for another 6 months?


----------



## Kevin_W

Megan Kenworthy said:


> Has anyone else received an email from David's that includes -
> 
> "Before reaching out to the owner of your June reservation, I just wanted to make sure that you do not plan on traveling at all regardless of the status.  *If that is not the case, please let me know* but I just wanted to ask before reaching out to those owners. "
> 
> I have an early June reservation. Is David's thinking renters will commit to not traveling and then won't qualify for or pursue a charge back (they would have documentation that the renter wasn't going to accept/keep the service anyway)? I spoke with David's on the phone and she insisted I respond via email to this request (documentation?)



I have a reservation starting May 23 and have heard nothing from David's.  I assumed this was because Disney hasn't officially closed for those dates yet, but it's interesting that your reservation is in June and you have heard from them.

I was interested in what the process would bem,which is how I stumbled onto this thread.  It seems like the process will be calling Chase.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, if I have this straight, David's extended the expiration of the voucher from 12 months to 24 months, except he won't redeem these vouchers for another 6 months?
> 
> View attachment 492105


I think he accepts them for use after August 1st or September 1st.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Grumpy by Birth said:


> So, if I have this straight, David's extended the expiration of the voucher from 12 months to 24 months, except he won't redeem these vouchers for another 6 months?
> 
> View attachment 492105


He extended the expiration because he is refusing to book any vouchers.  He is only interested in taking care of any new business coming to him and those with vouchers are not a priority.


----------



## KingRichard

DGsAtBLT said:


> I think he will certainly be taking his commission again from a points rental, as it is built into the cost of the rental and it can be argued the company is doing the work for 2 reservations (she tries not to say in a snarky tone).
> 
> With a Disney cash reservation, correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t the commission be paid by Disney and not impact on your cost? That’s how Disney travel agents work, right? No extra cost to the guest but a kick back by Disney?


How could he take a commission again? The voucher has zero cash value! Now he would hope that it would be used for a cruise or Disney cash stay, then yes he should get a extra kick back.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

KingRichard said:


> How could he take a commission again? The voucher has zero cash value! Now he would hope that it would be used for a cruise or Disney cash stay, then yes he should get a extra kick back.



I just meant they are charging the full price including their commission for any voucher used for a rental as far as we know. So the price charged (and paid for with the voucher) includes the built in commission amount.

On that note, I think most renters will be facing a price increase since they booked their initial reservation because of the $1 per point increase so losing out in value.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

cmrdgrs said:


> He extended the expiration because he is refusing to book any vouchers.  He is only interested in taking care of any new business coming to him and those with vouchers are not a priority.


Wait a minute... so David's is issuing vouchers and IS NOT making any reservations with those vouchers at all?  Like, not even for travel in 11 months from now?  Only new cash rentals?!  Have people TRIED to book new reservations with those vouchers?

Man, that is crazy messed up.  IMO, the voucher customers should be his absolute FIRST priority.  Mainly because DVC inventory is going to be WRECKED for the next year or two.  There is such a glut of points in the system from these closures that ANY booking is going to be VERY tough...and he's pulling in new bookings and taking away potential inventory from people who have already paid for their vacations MONTHS, if not a year, ago?! 

Assuming all of that is true, not that I think that David's really has a chance of winning the Credit Card charge backs, in spite of the voucher...BUT if he does challenge the charge back, then this would be ANOTHER thing to bring up as a part of that dispute...that you are being denied the ability to book any travel with the voucher.

Not to mention the owners who have had their points rescued by DVC by extending their expiration by 6 months...David's could absolutely be saving these transactions and points from expiring.


----------



## Sandisw

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> Wait a minute... so David's is issuing vouchers and IS NOT making any reservations with those vouchers at all?  Like, not even for travel in 11 months from now?  Only new cash rentals?!  Have people TRIED to book new reservations with those vouchers?
> 
> Man, that is crazy messed up.  IMO, the voucher customers should be his absolute FIRST priority.  Mainly because DVC inventory is going to be WRECKED for the next year or two.  There is such a glut of points in the system from these closures that ANY booking is going to be VERY tough...and he's pulling in new bookings and taking away potential inventory from people who have already paid for their vacations MONTHS, if not a year, ago?!
> 
> Assuming all of that is true, not that I think that David's really has a chance of winning the Credit Card charge backs, in spite of the voucher...BUT if he does challenge the charge back, then this would be ANOTHER thing to bring up as a part of that dispute...that you are being denied the ability to book any travel with the voucher.
> 
> Not to mention the owners who have had their points rescued by DVC by extending their expiration by 6 months...David's could absolutely be saving these transactions and points from expiring.



Supposedly he is not booking until at least August or Sept 1st.


----------



## Marionnette

Sandisw said:


> Supposedly he is not booking until at least August or Sept 1st.


Interestingly, he has a number of dedicated reservations for June, July and August. Now, why wouldn’t he allow renters to use their vouchers for them?


----------



## JasonV

Sandisw said:


> Typically, yes,  What we don’t know is what rate Davids will be charging those with vouchers for cash reservations.  Will it be rack rates? Or, will he offer the specials that Disney has?



Here is a response received from David’s on this subject today:

Thanks for reaching out. When making a cash booking, the current "rack rate" would apply. So whatever the Disney site rates are at the time of booking is the price that would apply for you. We do not get any additional discounts by booking as an agent.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

Sandisw said:


> Supposedly he is not booking until at least August or Sept 1st.


I've never used David's service as either an owner or a renter...but...hypotehtical...Let's say that i'm an owner, and I rented points through David's on a reservation that was impacted by COVID...Both David's and I had a COMPLETELY unprecedented life line thrown by DVC by extending points expiration by at least 6 months.  He's got a massive pool of renters who now have vouchers...and an equally massive pool of owners who have points that are potentially in Peril...he could be matching up those renters with those owners RIGHT NOW.  Points that are in peril and expire in less than 1 year...less than 6 months in a lot of cases...and he's simply sitting on his butt?!

So let's see...maybe I booked this rental with points that were banked...and would've expired March 31 with no hope of banking...DVC came to the rescue...extended my points expiration 6-months to September 31...David's could be matching up renters with owners who have points in peril.  David's would make renters who have vouchers happy, and owners who have points expiring with nothing to use them on happy by getting their remaining 30%.  David's could come through this and minimize points being lost, get owners paid in full...albeit a few months late, get renters who are unhappy something new to look forward to, hopefully avoid chargebacks, and (ideally for David's) KEEP his commission.

As an owner, I would be happy to help David's make use of those points if he could find a renter.  I would be willing to work with him to find a new renter, work with my old renter, etc. to use those points...David's removes a potential chargeback liability, I get paid, and a renter gets what they paid for.  I get that a lot of people don't want to travel in the next 4-6 months, but there are people who are itching to get out and do something.  David's COULD be working with EVERYONE to make them happy.


----------



## Disaseny

JasonV said:


> Here is a response received from David’s on this subject today:
> 
> Thanks for reaching out. When making a cash booking, the current "rack rate" would apply. So whatever the Disney site rates are at the time of booking is the price that would apply for you. We do not get any additional discounts by booking as an agent.


Well that takes that option off the table......why would I pay him more money when I can book directly through Disney and get a better deal, with à better cancellation term?


----------



## CraigInPA

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I've never used David's service as either an owner or a renter...but...hypotehtical...Let's say that i'm an owner, and I rented points through David's on a reservation that was impacted by COVID...Both David's and I had a COMPLETELY unprecedented life line thrown by DVC by extending points expiration by at least 6 months.  He's got a massive pool of renters who now have vouchers...and an equally massive pool of owners who have points that are potentially in Peril...he could be matching up those renters with those owners RIGHT NOW.  Points that are in peril and expire in less than 1 year...less than 6 months in a lot of cases...and he's simply sitting on his butt?



Except that these points having extended expirations are expiring during the peak time for dvc resorts. Simply, there is little to no availability for owners to reserve alternative reservations between September and the expiration of the points in late 2020.

Hindsight is 20/20, but David's could have been proactively working a solution for those first three weeks and mitigated any losses. Instead, David's spent staff time on deleting negative social media posts and sending threatening letters to owners demanding a full refund.


----------



## yankeesfan123

cmrdgrs said:


> This is _*exactly*_ my point about why David cannot issue a "credit voucher" without the original owner.  Your original contract with David is not with any random owner -- it is with a specific owner.  If that owner is keeping their points (whatever that means) and gave back the money to David, you in turn deserve your money back too. This is the argument to make IMHO with the credit card companies.  If David recieved money back from the original owner, he should in turn be returning that money to the rightful owners -- THE RENTERS!


That’s the pyramid scheme... unless David is taking a personal hit and using his own money to fulfill the vouchers if the original owner doesn’t refund.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Disaseny said:


> Well that takes that option off the table......why would I pay him more money when I can book directly through Disney and get a better deal, with à better cancellation term?


Well, if the alternative to paying extra for the rack rate using the voucher is losing everything you paid for the cancelled reservation, I suppose some would suck it up and accept those terms.  That's assuming that renters will not be able to get their money back through charge backs or other means.


----------



## Sandisw

JasonV said:


> Here is a response received from David’s on this subject today:
> 
> Thanks for reaching out. When making a cash booking, the current "rack rate" would apply. So whatever the Disney site rates are at the time of booking is the price that would apply for you. We do not get any additional discounts by booking as an agent.



Well, not entirely true because TAs do book specials for clients all the time,

If it were me, this would make the voucher even less appealing


----------



## cmrdgrs

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> I've never used David's service as either an owner or a renter...but...hypotehtical...Let's say that i'm an owner, and I rented points through David's on a reservation that was impacted by COVID...Both David's and I had a COMPLETELY unprecedented life line thrown by DVC by extending points expiration by at least 6 months.  He's got a massive pool of renters who now have vouchers...and an equally massive pool of owners who have points that are potentially in Peril...he could be matching up those renters with those owners RIGHT NOW.  Points that are in peril and expire in less than 1 year...less than 6 months in a lot of cases...and he's simply sitting on his butt?!
> 
> So let's see...maybe I booked this rental with points that were banked...and would've expired March 31 with no hope of banking...DVC came to the rescue...extended my points expiration 6-months to September 31...David's could be matching up renters with owners who have points in peril.  David's would make renters who have vouchers happy, and owners who have points expiring with nothing to use them on happy by getting their remaining 30%.  David's could come through this and minimize points being lost, get owners paid in full...albeit a few months late, get renters who are unhappy something new to look forward to, hopefully avoid chargebacks, and (ideally for David's) KEEP his commission.
> 
> As an owner, I would be happy to help David's make use of those points if he could find a renter.  I would be willing to work with him to find a new renter, work with my old renter, etc. to use those points...David's removes a potential chargeback liability, I get paid, and a renter gets what they paid for.  I get that a lot of people don't want to travel in the next 4-6 months, but there are people who are itching to get out and do something.  David's COULD be working with EVERYONE to make them happy.


Availability is very scarce right now for studios.  JMHO, but for whatever availability there is I'm David would much rather fill the order of a paid renter than that of a voucher re-renter.  IMO, new paying customers are getting priority over vouchers.  Studios are by far the most popular rental and those are scarce.  The longer he waits to book the more scarce they get.


----------



## McCrae

cmrdgrs said:


> He extended the expiration because he is refusing to book any vouchers.  He is only interested in taking care of any new business coming to him and those with vouchers are not a priority.


Do you have any evidence of this?


----------



## cmrdgrs

McCrae said:


> Do you have any evidence of this?


It's been reported that some people have tried to book and are unable to book any earlier than when David will let them.  David is saying August or September.  Others on this thread have said the same.


----------



## McCrae

cmrdgrs said:


> It's been reported that some people have tried to book and are unable to book any earlier than when David will let them.  David is saying August or September.  Others on this thread have said the same.


I have read that as well, but is he doing anything different with new renters?  I wouldn’t be surprised if he is holding off earlier bookings for everyone.


----------



## spinchy

I'm as frustrated as the rest of you with this, but I can't fault Davids for not wanting to book new reservations right away.  We're all hopeful that the parks and resorts will be open in a month or two, but why would he want to book these vouchers for June 1, just to find everything still closed?    Despite the new terms in the contract, he'd be dealing with a whole new pile of angry customers.       Just counting down the days until my trip is officially cancelled so I can start the charge back process too now.   With the restrictions and his price increases, the "full value" voucher sure isn't full value anymore.


----------



## Cyberc1978

spinchy said:


> I'm as frustrated as the rest of you with this, but I can't fault Davids for not wanting to book new reservations right away.  We're all hopeful that the parks and resorts will be open in a month or two, but why would he want to book these vouchers for June 1, just to find everything still closed?    Despite the new terms in the contract, he'd be dealing with a whole new pile of angry customers.       Just counting down the days until my trip is officially cancelled so I can start the charge back process too now.   With the restrictions and his price increases, the "full value" voucher sure isn't full value anymore.


On top any bookings for 2021 could be more points/money as Disney have shuffled the points around for 2021. Potentially it could also be less but it all depends on the time of year the booking is for.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

spinchy said:


> ... why would he want to book these vouchers for June 1, just to find everything still closed? Despite the new terms in the contract, he'd be dealing with a whole new pile of angry customers.


Precisely _*because *_of the new terms in the contract (despite the whole new pile of angry customers)?


----------



## Amymouse13

I'm actually surprised he cares to wait to book til September, if the voucher terms are no refunds even if closed why not book a slew of reservations that might not be fulfilled... Renter agreed, owner got paid, whatever right?  (This is very snarky sarcastic if you can't tell...)


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> I'm actually surprised he cares to wait to book til September, if the voucher terms are no refunds even if closed why not book a slew of reservations that might not be fulfilled... Renter agreed, owner got paid, whatever right?  (This is very snarky sarcastic if you can't tell...)



Actually, I think he can’t book yet because if renters choose Disney, he would have no reason not to book and he’d have to have the money to do it.


----------



## New Mouse

He obviously doesnt have the money to book the vouchers.  If he were in a sound financial state right now, getting those vouchers immediately off his books would be a priority....its also quite obvious stretching them to 2 years softens his outlay of cash.


----------



## cmrdgrs

New Mouse said:


> He obviously doesnt have the money to book the vouchers.  If he were in a sound financial state right now, getting those vouchers immediately off his books would be a priority....its also quite obvious stretching them to 2 years softens his outlay of cash.


But, he doesn't need money, he [supposedly] has points from owners. Why would he need money?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Amymouse13 said:


> I'm actually surprised he cares to wait to book til September, if the voucher terms are no refunds even if closed why not book a slew of reservations that might not be fulfilled... Renter agreed, owner got paid, whatever right?  (This is very snarky sarcastic if you can't tell...)


 

Sarcasm in this thread?  Say it ain't so!


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> But, he doesn't need money, he [supposedly] has points from owners. Why would he need money?



He needs money if someone chooses an option that is not a points rental.  If they decide to use their voucher at a Disney hotel, cruise, etc, he has to pay cash for that.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Sandisw said:


> He needs money if someone chooses an option that is not a points rental.  If they decide to use their voucher at a Disney hotel, cruise, etc, he has to pay cash for that.


Although, in at least some of those instances, he only needs to front the 1-night deposit.


----------



## DisneyBB

cmrdgrs said:


> But, he doesn't need money, he [supposedly] has points from owners. Why would he need money?


It could also be where he has to issue a voucher and the points have expired or expiring.  So he has no points and no refund to fall back on.


----------



## Cyberc1978

DisneyBB said:


> It could also be where he has to issue a voucher and the points have expired or expiring.  So he has no points and no refund to fall back on.


Only reason he is doing the voucher thing is to avoid chargebacks from renters. I think he hopes that some or most will be declined as the renters are being returned something they can still use with David’s. 

I know this is a different matter but I tried to file a claim with my travelers insurance but they declined due to me getting the voucher. If I hadn’t got that it was another matter.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

I can confirm that David’s is letting customers with credit notes to re book now ( others have said he will not rebook til August, but I think that just means for stays before August) as I have just re rented my points for a family for 11 months time. From the contract sent I know they only had to make up the deficit of a few $ and the rest was their credit. I have also been paid the remaining 30% for those points. The extra $1 per point will be paid to me at check in. At least one family with a credit note has a successful outcome and one owner (me!) who is happy with David’s response to getting final payment.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I can confirm that David’s is letting customers with credit notes to re book now ( others have said he will not rebook til August, but I think that just means for stays before August) as I have just re rented my points for a family for 11 months time. From the contract sent I know they only had to make up the deficit of a few $ and the rest was their credit. I have also been paid the remaining 30% for those points. The extra $1 per point will be paid to me at check in. At least one family with a credit note has a successful outcome and one owner (me!) who is happy with David’s response to getting final payment.


That’s great to hear for both you and the family. I just hope that everyone is just as lucky.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Cyberc1978 said:


> That’s great to hear for both you and the family. I just hope that everyone is just as lucky.


Me too.


----------



## McCrae

Cyberc1978 said:


> Only reason he is doing the voucher thing is to avoid chargebacks from renters. I think he hopes that some or most will be declined as the renters are being returned something they can still use with David’s.
> 
> I know this is a different matter but I tried to file a claim with my travelers insurance but they declined due to me getting the voucher. If I hadn’t got that it was another matter.


From David’s point of view offering the Voucher may turn out to be a bad decision. The voucher prevents successful insurance claims and is more likely to create more Charge back claims. If they didn’t offer the voucher and the insurance paid out, charge backs would not be successful.


----------



## McCrae

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I can confirm that David’s is letting customers with credit notes to re book now ( others have said he will not rebook til August, but I think that just means for stays before August) as I have just re rented my points for a family for 11 months time. From the contract sent I know they only had to make up the deficit of a few $ and the rest was their credit. I have also been paid the remaining 30% for those points. The extra $1 per point will be paid to me at check in. At least one family with a credit note has a successful outcome and one owner (me!) who is happy with David’s response to getting final payment.



This is very encouraging to read, as an owner I have been sitting on the fence thinking about what I will do. My initial thoughts are that I am more likely to offer my points for re-rental.


----------



## Cyberc1978

McCrae said:


> From David’s point of view offering the Voucher may turn out to be a bad decision. The voucher prevents successful insurance claims and is more likely to create more Charge back claims. If they didn’t offer the voucher and the insurance paid out, charge backs would not be successful.


Unless his thinking is that only very few customers are having insurance and therefore going to pursue a charge back instead.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I can confirm that David’s is letting customers with credit notes to re book now ( others have said he will not rebook til August, but I think that just means for stays before August) as I have just re rented my points for a family for 11 months time. From the contract sent I know they only had to make up the deficit of a few $ and the rest was their credit. I have also been paid the remaining 30% for those points. The extra $1 per point will be paid to me at check in. At least one family with a credit note has a successful outcome and one owner (me!) who is happy with David’s response to getting final payment.


I hope you get the extra $1 and the 30% he still owes you when the guest checks in.  He may be insolvent by then.  The guest will still have your reservation though.


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Although, in at least some of those instances, he only needs to front the 1-night deposit.



True, but he’d need balance quickly for summer reservations.   That is why I think he is not booking with his vouchers so he can build back up to cover the balance when it is due,


----------



## cmrdgrs

Marionnette said:


> Interestingly, he has a number of dedicated reservations for June, July and August. Now, why wouldn’t he allow renters to use their vouchers for them?


Are they studios?  I haven't looked, but I'd guess they are not studios.


----------



## akadk

Question for Point Owners and Renters?

We were scheduled via David's for May 2 to May 6. Note: We have used David's successfully in the past and already have another separate booking scheduled in November. Obviously May trip was canceled to park closure.

We have disagreed with the new credit terms if a rescheduled trip is canceled again, we have lost full payment. No one can predict the future but we assume closures will happen again at some point.

We have heard numerous times by David's that the new credit is fair for all involved. How is the credit fair to the Renter if they paid both David's - and by proxy Owner - if they just forfeit all paid fees?


----------



## Marionnette

cmrdgrs said:


> Are they studios?  I haven't looked, but I'd guess they are not studios.


A lot of studios and at a wide variety of resorts.


----------



## Marionnette

akadk said:


> Question for Point Owners and Renters?
> 
> We were scheduled via David's for May 2 to May 6. Note: We have used David's successfully in the past and already have another separate booking scheduled in November. Obviously May trip was canceled to park closure.
> 
> We have disagreed with the new credit terms if a rescheduled trip is canceled again, we have lost full payment. No one can predict the future but we assume closures will happen again at some point.
> 
> We have heard numerous times by David's that the new credit is fair for all involved. How is the credit fair to the Renter if they paid both David's - and by proxy Owner - if they just forfeit all paid fees?


It isn’t. That’s just how David’s wishes to market it.


----------



## dragonflymom

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I have also been paid the remaining 30% for those points.



So glad to hear it all worked out with you, David's and the renter.  I am impressed that David's has already paid you the remaining 30% for the re-rented reservation 11 months out.  Did you have to ask for it or was that built into the "new" contract?


----------



## Bowen Family

akadk said:


> Question for Point Owners and Renters?
> 
> We were scheduled via David's for May 2 to May 6. Note: We have used David's successfully in the past and already have another separate booking scheduled in November. Obviously May trip was canceled to park closure.
> 
> We have disagreed with the new credit terms if a rescheduled trip is canceled again, we have lost full payment. No one can predict the future but we assume closures will happen again at some point.
> 
> We have heard numerous times by David's that the new credit is fair for all involved. How is the credit fair to the Renter if they paid both David's - and by proxy Owner - if they just forfeit all paid fees?



Many on this thread have the same questions and concerns. I certainly do. 

As for fair or not: I feel that renters who were booked a DVC stay on an owner’s distressed points, ie points on the verge of expiration and therefore no practical chance of using or re-renting, then the voucher seems fair. Perhaps it’s even more than fair, since the owner isn’t likely to get their remaining 30% payment for their lost points, but the renter at least has an offer from David’s of a possible future booking at full value. Assuming this voucher system works as expected. 

But in any other circumstance I can think of, accepting the voucher leaves the renter exposed to a lot of risk and the chance of getting nothing, while both the owner and David’s can be made whole. That is the part that doesn’t sit well with me.


----------



## akadk

Bowen Family said:


> Many on this thread have the same questions and concerns. I certainly do.
> 
> As for fair or not: I feel that renters who were booked a DVC stay on an owner’s distressed points, ie points on the verge of expiration and therefore no practical chance of using or re-renting, then the voucher seems fair. Perhaps it’s even more than fair, since the owner isn’t likely to get their remaining 30% payment for their lost points, but the renter at least has an offer from David’s of a possible future booking at full value. Assuming this voucher system works as expected.
> 
> But in any other circumstance I can think of, accepting the voucher leaves the renter exposed to a lot of risk and the chance of getting nothing, while both the owner and David’s can be made whole. That is the part that doesn’t sit well with me.


Here's the rub, we were vacationing with other family members using their own DVC Points (not David's). They were near expiration. Disney already gave them their points back with extended expirations. Seems fair of Disney and not shocked they treated their guest that way.

We are 100% certain that David's points owners have also received their points back from Disney as well with extended deadlines for use. Even if David's is negotiating with those owners to utilize the returned points, why try to handicap the renters with new terms?


----------



## Marionnette

akadk said:


> We are 100% certain that David's points owners have also received their points back from Disney as well with extended deadlines for use. Even if David's is negotiating with those owners to utilize the returned points, why try to handicap the renters with new terms?


DVC only extended the points for affected owners with April and June UYs. Not every owner was given an additional 6 months to use their points.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

dragonflymom said:


> So glad to hear it all worked out with you, David's and the renter.  I am impressed that David's has already paid you the remaining 30% for the re-rented reservation 11 months out.  Did you have to ask for it or was that built into the "new" contract?


I confirmed with them before booking that they would pay me on booking, rather than at check in. Having read on here that their rates had gone up I cheekily suggested payment of the $1 at the time of check in and to my surprise they agreed without any argument and put a note against my points. They automatically paid once the renters had paid their extra dollars on top of their credit note.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

Maddiesmum03 said:


> I confirmed with them before booking that they would pay me on booking, rather than at check in. Having read on here that their rates had gone up I cheekily suggested payment of the $1 at the time of check in and to my surprise they agreed without any argument and put a note against my points. They automatically paid once the renters had paid their extra dollars on top of their credit note.


I am glad to hear that it sounds like David's may be starting to do this credit right by owners.  That is encouraging.  I am also glad that he is letting renters with vouchers actually book right now, even if he's not letting them travel until August or September.  Even though evidence suggests that Disney is going to open June 1, in at least some capacity, I get that Disney may not be open this summer at all...and this is likely avoiding a situation where they get their reservation cancelled out from under them again.


----------



## akadk

Marionnette said:


> DVC only extended the points for affected owners with April and June UYs. Not every owner was given an additional 6 months to use their points.


Thanks again. That's useful information. I imagine Disney will keep extending points back until such time they can open safely. Note: We were not asking David's for money back originally, just no new terms with loss of funds and no trip. It will be interesting to see if people flock to Disney once reopened. I suspect many may not feel safe traveling to the resort.


----------



## Bowen Family

akadk said:


> Thank
> 
> Here's the rub, we were vacationing with other family members using their own DVC Points (not David's). They were near expiration. Disney already gave them their points back with extended expirations. Seems fair of Disney and not shocked they treated their guest that way.
> 
> We are 100% certain that David's points owners have also received their points back from Disney as well with extended deadlines for use. Even if David's is negotiating with those owners to utilize the returned points, why try to handicap the renters with new terms?



In our case, we have a May 10 check-in that still shows up in MDE. My understanding is that DVC is only cancelling reservations on a rolling basis 5 days out from check-in. So I expect the owner has been smart and not cancelled my res on his own, so that this coming Tuesday the reservation will be cancelled by DVC. This means the owner will then receive his points back from DVC, and though his points have not been extended (I have learned from David’s that these points are borrowed from a Nov 2018 UY, so not eligible for the recent April and June 2018 UY extensions), he still has until the end of November 2020 this year to use them. That’s a six month window from a presumed June re-opening. Not bad for him. 

So will ‘my’ owner re-book these points for his own use by November 2020? Will he rent them to someone else? I have no idea. All I know for certain is I’ve paid $1,000’s for these points, and right now the owner has either 70% of my money and David’s the other 30%; or David’s has all of it. 

So what do I want to happen?

My first preference would be to know the owner’s actions. If he refunds my money to David’s and receives his points back from DVC, I simply can’t understand why David’s wouldn’t refund me. The original contract is distressed. Cancel it and let us all move on. I’d gladly forego David’s commission, just give me back the rest!

Failing that best case, I’d be cautiously open to this credit system, but not with the conditions attached. Going forward, I’d want to know when my next batch of rented points expire (all future DVC renters should start insisting on this info, IMO), and retain the right to rebook or otherwise receive compensation of some sort in the event of a resort closure. 

But after a lot of thought and reading on this topic, these two scenarios are all I’m interested in. Anything else and I’ll take my chances with a chargeback. I don’t want to put David’s in a tougher spot than they’re in, I really don’t. But I also need to protect my own interests. We all do!


----------



## akadk

Bowen Family said:


> In our case, we have a May 10 check-in that still shows up in MDE. My understanding is that DVC is only cancelling reservations on a rolling basis 5 days out from check-in. So I expect the owner has been smart and not cancelled my res on his own, so that this coming Tuesday the reservation will be cancelled by DVC. This means the owner will then receive his points back from DVC, and though his points have not been extended (I have learned from David’s that these points are borrowed from a Nov 2018 UY, so not eligible for the recent April and June 2018 UY extensions), he still has until the end of November 2020 this year to use them. That’s a six month window from a presumed June re-opening. Not bad for him.
> 
> So will ‘my’ owner re-book these points for his own use by November 2020? Will he rent them to someone else? I have no idea. All I know for certain is I’ve paid $1,000’s for these points, and right now the owner has either 70% of my money and David’s the other 30%; or David’s has all of it.
> 
> So what do I want to happen?
> 
> My first preference would be to know the owner’s actions. If he refunds my money to David’s and receives his points back from DVC, I simply can’t understand why David’s wouldn’t refund me. The original contract is distressed. Cancel it and let us all move on. I’d gladly forego David’s commission, just give me back the rest!
> 
> Failing that best case, I’d be cautiously open to this credit system, but not with the conditions attached. Going forward, I’d want to know when my next batch of rented points expire (all future DVC renters should start insisting on this info, IMO), and retain the right to rebook or otherwise receive compensation of some sort in the event of a resort closure.
> 
> But after a lot of thought and reading on this topic, these two scenarios are all I’m interested in. Anything else and I’ll take my chances with a chargeback. I don’t want to put David’s in a tougher spot than they’re in, I really don’t. But I also need to protect my own interests. We all do!


Totally agree with all stated. Vacations aren't supposed to be a spin on the roulette table. My wife and I jumped on this forum to confirm are perspective as a renter is not crazy or unheard-of. This whole situation should have been handled in a different way.

I have a banquet business and couldn't imagine telling brides that their date has come and gone, but they can rebook; however, if our venue is closed upon 2nd booking - WE KEEP THE MONEY FOR NO SERVICES. I'd be out of the wedding business in a few months.


----------



## Marionnette

Bowen Family said:


> In our case, we have a May 10 check-in that still shows up in MDE. My understanding is that DVC is only cancelling reservations on a rolling basis 5 days out from check-in. So I expect the owner has been smart and not cancelled my res on his own, so that this coming Tuesday the reservation will be cancelled by DVC. This means the owner will then receive his points back from DVC, and though his points have not been extended (I have learned from David’s that these points are borrowed from a Nov 2018 UY, so not eligible for the recent April and June 2018 UY extensions), he still has until the end of November 2020 this year to use them. That’s a six month window from a presumed June re-opening. Not bad for him.
> 
> So will ‘my’ owner re-book these points for his own use by November 2020? Will he rent them to someone else? I have no idea. All I know for certain is I’ve paid $1,000’s for these points, and right now the owner has either 70% of my money and David’s the other 30%; or David’s has all of it.
> 
> So what do I want to happen?
> 
> My first preference would be to know the owner’s actions. If he refunds my money to David’s and receives his points back from DVC, I simply can’t understand why David’s wouldn’t refund me. The original contract is distressed. Cancel it and let us all move on. I’d gladly forego David’s commission, just give me back the rest!
> 
> Failing that best case, I’d be cautiously open to this credit system, but not with the conditions attached. Going forward, I’d want to know when my next batch of rented points expire (all future DVC renters should start insisting on this info, IMO), and retain the right to rebook or otherwise receive compensation of some sort in the event of a resort closure.
> 
> But after a lot of thought and reading on this topic, these two scenarios are all I’m interested in. Anything else and I’ll take my chances with a chargeback. I don’t want to put David’s in a tougher spot than they’re in, I really don’t. But I also need to protect my own interests. We all do!


DVC is returning points to the UY that they came from when the reservation was made. It doesn’t matter whether the owner cancels or DVC does it. So, the owner is not “being smart” by allowing the reservation to stand.

If the owner cancels the reservation, the renter is entitled to a cash refund, not a voucher. David’s is discouraging owners from canceling and asking them to allow DVC to do it. That way, David’s can say that “it’s no one’s fault but here, let me offer you, the renter, a voucher”. But on the other end, they are trying to strong arm the owner into either re-renting the points or returning the money by claiming that the contract has been “frustrated”.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Bowen Family said:


> Going forward, I’d want to know when my next batch of rented points expire (all future DVC renters should start insisting on this info, IMO)


This goes back to the question of whether you are paying for a certain NUMBER of points or a specific SET of points.  If the former, expiration shouldn't matter because if those points expire, the owner should still be on the hook to provide a reservation using additional points if necessary.  Some have asserted that the renter is renting the specific points and they must be used by the renter before they expire.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this gets further complicated by the broker's 3-way contract.  The broker DID know the status of those points.  Did he pay the owner for the expiring points specifically or for that many points in general?

I would venture a guess that many points in the rental market are to some degree "distressed."  Some owners may plan well in advance to rent points they know they won't be using that year, but it's probably fairly often that they are renting specifically because they are going to lose the points due to expiration.


----------



## Bowen Family

Marionnette said:


> DVC is returning points to the UY that they came from when the reservation was made. It doesn’t matter whether the owner cancels or DVC does it. So, the owner is not “being smart” by allowing the reservation to stand.
> 
> If the owner cancels the reservation, the renter is entitled to a cash refund, not a voucher. David’s is discouraging owners from canceling and asking them to allow DVC to do it. That way, David’s can say that “it’s no one’s fault but here, let me offer you, the renter, a voucher”. But on the other end, they are trying to strong arm the owner into either re-renting the points or returning the money by claiming that the contract has been “frustrated”.



I could have been clearer, but yes, this is exactly what I’m referring to when I said the owner was smart to leave the reservation and let DVC cancel it, lest they owe me a refund.


----------



## Marionnette

Bowen Family said:


> I could have been clearer, but yes, this is exactly what I’m referring to when I said the owner was smart to leave the reservation and let DVC cancel it, lest they owe me a refund.


To be clear, the owner would not owe you a refund. Your contract is with David’s. David’s would owe you the refund not a voucher, if the owner canceled. David’s would then go after the owner for breaching the contract that David’s has with the owner.


----------



## Bowen Family

Grumpy by Birth said:


> This goes back to the question of whether you are paying for a certain NUMBER of points or a specific SET of points.  If the former, expiration shouldn't matter because if those points expire, the owner should still be on the hook to provide a reservation using additional points if necessary.  Some have asserted that the renter is renting the specific points and they must be used by the renter before they expire.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this gets further complicated by the broker's 3-wasy contract.  The broker DID know the status of those points.  Did he pay the owner for the expiring points specifically or for that many points in general?
> 
> I would venture a guess that many points in the rental market are to some degree "distressed."  Some owners may plan well in advance to rent points they know they won't be using that year, but it's probably fairly often that they are renting specifically because they are going to lose the points due to expiration.



Agreed, it’s a difficult but important distinction. I think the way to salvage and re-build trust in the point rental industry going forward is to let the ‘buyer beware’ and give them advance knowledge of the point’s expiry status before they agree to rent. Then they can decide for themselves if distressed points are worth the additional risk compared to points that could be more easily re-acheduled in the event of a closure.


----------



## Bowen Family

Marionnette said:


> To be clear, the owner would not owe you a refund. Your contract is with David’s. David’s would owe you the refund not a voucher, if the owner canceled. David’s would then go after the owner for breaching the contract that David’s has with the owner.



I think we may be getting into semantics here, as the refund is ultimately owed the renter if the owner cancels. David’s is meant to secure and forward the refund in that case. But yes, I take your point.


----------



## Marionnette

Bowen Family said:


> Agreed, it’s a difficult but important distinction. I think the way to salvage and re-build trust in the point rental industry going forward is to let the ‘buyer beware’ and give them advance knowledge of the point’s expiry status before they agree to rent. Then they can decide for themselves if distressed points are worth the additional risk compared to points that could be more easily re-acheduled in the event of a closure.


“Distressed” points are marketed that way. They typically expire within 3 months of the day they are also offered up for rental.

Points that are made available at 11 months are anything but “distressed”. For instance, someone who booked a March rental in April for David’s using their April UY points might be using banked points that have almost a full year of useful life. If they were from the current UY, their life could have been extended by banking them into the next year by Oct. 31. IOW, those points had a lot of life left to them when they were used to make a reservation for the renter. They weren’t “distressed” at the time that the rental agreements were made.


----------



## Marionnette

Bowen Family said:


> I think we may be getting into semantics here, as the refund is ultimately owed the renter if the owner cancels. David’s is meant to secure and forward the refund in that case. But yes, I take your point.


Actually, no, it’s not semantics. David’s owes the renter a refund regardless of their ability to recover from the owner, if the owner cancels. That’s why David’s is discouraging owners from taking proactive measures to cancel ahead of DVC doing it.


----------



## DisneyBB

Marionnette said:


> Actually, no, it’s not semantics. David’s owes the renter a refund regardless of their ability to recover from the owner, if the owner cancels. That’s why David’s is discouraging owners from taking proactive measures to cancel ahead of DVC doing it.


The owner cannot cancel as the contract will be in breach and the owner would be responsible for costs from the renter such as airfare etc.   I have rented my points, one has rescheduled and other wants to stay put.   I have no choice but to follow the contract.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

You are renting specific points no doubt to it as David’s clearly goes over your points with you when you sign to tent points with him - he knows exactly what you are renting and when where they are good for - this isn’t his rodeo - he may write horrible contracts - he may try to hose everyone over / but he knows the DVC system don’t doubt that for a minute .


----------



## Marionnette

DisneyBB said:


> The owner cannot cancel as the contract will be in breach and the owner would be responsible for costs from the renter such as airfare etc.   I have rented my points, one has rescheduled and other wants to stay put.   I have no choice but to follow the contract.


But again, it would be up to David’s to recover those costs for the renter because the renter does not have a contract with the owner. I’m not advocating for owners to cancel reservations in advance. I’m just saying that David’s motivation isn’t to protect the owner when they tell owners to wait until DVC does the cancellations.  It’s all about self-preservation. David’s wants to be able to issue vouchers instead of refunding cash to the renter.


----------



## banzai75

Does anyone else find it strange that David or his representative is not posting on here at all?  

The only comments they post are on Facebook that say to contact the office.


----------



## Cyberc1978

banzai75 said:


> Does anyone else find it strange that David or his representative is not posting on here at all?
> 
> The only comments they post are on Facebook that say to contact the office.


I think he is afraid of being flamed by renters and owners.


----------



## Bowen Family

Marionnette said:


> But again, it would be up to David’s to recover those costs for the renter because the renter does not have a contract with the owner. I’m not advocating for owners to cancel reservations in advance. I’m just saying that David’s motivation isn’t to protect the owner when they tell owners to wait until DVC does the cancellations.  It’s all about self-preservation. David’s wants to be able to issue vouchers instead of refunding cash to the renter.



I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund. 

14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.
> 
> 14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.



Typically, yes.  However, right now, owners have offered to cancel and refund the renter, and Davids has asked them not to because he does not want to give renters the money, even when an owner is willing to do so,

I think right now, David’s motivation for not having an owner cancel is because he doesn’t want to have to give the money an owner refunds, plus the rest of the money he is still holding, back, To a renter,

He wants to be able to force the renter to accept the voucher, even when owners have returned funds,


----------



## Bowen Family

Sandisw said:


> Typically, yes.  However, right now, owners have offered to cancel and refund the renter, and Davids has asked them not to because he does not want to give renters the money, even when an owner is willing to do so,
> 
> I think right now, David’s motivation for not having an owner cancel is because he doesn’t want to have to give the money an owner refunds, plus the rest of the money he is still holding, back, To a renter,
> 
> He wants to be able to force the renter to accept the voucher, even when owners have returned funds,



100% in agreement with this! 

Just speculation on my part, but David’s probably didn’t want some renters to feel they’d been short-changed because a refund wasn’t available from ‘their’ owner, while others had that option. So we wind up with this attempt at a one-size-fits-all solution, when in fact there are many different circumstances and what is needed is flexibility and tailored solutions.


----------



## McCrae

DisneyBB said:


> The owner cannot cancel as the contract will be in breach and the owner would be responsible for costs from the renter such as airfare etc.   I have rented my points, one has rescheduled and other wants to stay put.   I have no choice but to follow the contract.



No one can stop an owner cancelling a contract.


----------



## McCrae

akadk said:


> Totally agree with all stated. Vacations aren't supposed to be a spin on the roulette table. My wife and I jumped on this forum to confirm are perspective as a renter is not crazy or unheard-of. This whole situation should have been handled in a different way.
> 
> I have a banquet business and couldn't imagine telling brides that their date has come and gone, but they can rebook; however, if our venue is closed upon 2nd booking - WE KEEP THE MONEY FOR NO SERVICES. I'd be out of the wedding business in a few months.


Do you offer your services at a big discount to your competitors and do your clients sign a no refunds or changes clause in your contracts?


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> 100% in agreement with this!
> 
> Just speculation on my part, but David’s probably didn’t want some renters to feel they’d been short-changed because a refund wasn’t available from ‘their’ owner, while others had that option. So we wind up with this attempt at a one-size-fits-all solution, when in fact there are many different circumstances and what is needed is flexibility and tailored solutions.



I applaud your optimism but I think Davids is choosing not refund renters when owners do is because he wants control of the money and is worried about himself, no one else,

I am so regretting doing business with him, but I’m confident WDW will be open in August when my renters go.  If they decide not to even with reopening, because of the way Davids has dealt sith this, I will not be refunding or rescheduling, nor will I cancel and just let the points expire because I will not continue a deal with his business


----------



## Bowen Family

Sandisw said:


> I applaud your optimism but I think Davids is choosing not refund renters when owners do is because he wants control of the money and is worried about himself, no one else,
> 
> I am so regretting doing business with him, but I’m confident WDW will be open in August when my renters go.  If they decide not to even with reopening, because of the way Davids has dealt sith this, I will not be refunding or rescheduling, nor will I cancel and just let the points expire because I will not continue a deal with his business



Hey, open is open. You certainly sound in the right to me if you were to refuse any changes.


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> Hey, open is open. You certainly sound in the right to me if you were to refuse any changes.



I guess my point was that If Davids had not played these games I would have offered my renter a chance to reschedule as the points being used are in their first month of use,


----------



## DisneyBB

McCrae said:


> No one can stop an owner cancelling a contract.


Yes of course as an owner I can cancel, but I would be opening myself up to the possibility of extra costs associated with that.  David and renter would have to give permission to cancel.


----------



## Bowen Family

Sandisw said:


> I guess my point was that If Davids had not played these games I would have offered my renter a chance to reschedule as the points being used are in their first month of use,



I totally get it. Suppose you did rebook but then there’s a resort closure for the new date. What then? Why prolong all this uncertainty? I hope the whole point rental industry figures out a new normal, since it can benefit everybody involved. But I regret being stuck in it right now and would love an out. In the future, if we rent points again, I’ll look to book directly with owners.


----------



## McCrae

Bowen Family said:


> I totally get it. Suppose you did rebook but then there’s a resort closure for the new date. What then? Why prolong all this uncertainty? I hope the whole point rental industry figures out a new normal, since it can benefit everybody involved. But I regret being stuck in it right now and would love an out. In the future, if we rent points again, I’ll look to book directly with owners.



If you want to be fully protected pay full price and go with Disney.


----------



## MICKIMINI

I participated in this thread from the beginning and have read every post since.  I am reading as I too want to understand how this is being handled by the broker who has complete control at this point.  I am tired of the animosity towards owners who have done nothing wrong.   I get that renters are upset and I would be too.  Owners DID NOT cause this debacle.

The specifics of the contracts are made known.   A request from a renter is made and shortly after a group of owners are approached.  Some owners have to compete, others don't seem to.  I get an email for a specific reservation and can accept or decline.  If you decline too often, my guess is you are sent to the back of the line.  I have been asked to borrow additional points several times to complete a reservation which I have fulfilled.  I have made many families happy and now I'm the bad guy.  Seriously?

I have two pending that I can help with for about 12 months forward but will that help the MY renter?  I'm not Disney and can't be expected to have an unlimited supply of points that go for two years.  If I give 70% back (actually 53% after commission) if my renter took a voucher - where does the money go?  My gut says give back  the money, but will MY renter get it?  If I can help MY renter with a mutually acceptable reservation (if my pendings end up in this mess) I will.  I'm just hoping all goes well.  I can't control what I can't control.  I'm stuck in the middle and can't contact my owner as it's a breach of my contract.  These contracts were poorly written and now renters and owners are being asked to breach the contracts they signed by the company that created the contracts.  It seems that one party out of three seems to win here either way.

We as owners offer a discounted option for renters, who clearly have a choice to book direct or rent.  We only get $14.50 or $15.50 per point.  Note that we pay around $8.00 MF's for each point every year and then pay income taxes on the $14.50 or $15.50 and this doesn't even account for the tens of thousands we paid for our contracts.  An example $14.50 per point - $8 MF's - 25% tax = *$2.88 per point or $28.80 for a 10 point one night studio reservation*.  This is not a money maker. 

I hope I can provide a bit more insight, but honestly expect to get flack for this post - so be it.  This has been debated for 129 pages and my final post won't solve anything, but I feel better.


----------



## Mumof4mice

Bowen Family said:


> I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.
> 
> 14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.



You've quoted David's updated contract which shifts risks onto owners and renters.  On those terms I wouldn't rent out my points in future.

The contracts for the affected reservations reads:

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $1368.00 US Dollars."


----------



## DisneyBB

Mumof4mice said:


> You've quoted David's updated contract which shifts risks onto owners and renters.  On those terms I wouldn't rent out my points in future.
> 
> The contracts for the affected reservations reads:
> 
> "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $1368.00 US Dollars."


This is the bit that would stop me cancelling without authorisation

“The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs“


----------



## Bowen Family

MICKIMINI said:


> I participated in this thread from the beginning and have read every post since.  I am reading as I too want to understand how this is being handled by the broker who has complete control at this point.  I am tired of the animosity towards owners who have done nothing wrong.   I get that renters are upset and I would be too.  Owners DID NOT cause this debacle.
> 
> The specifics of the contracts are made known.   A request from a renter is made and shortly after a group of owners are approached.  Some owners have to compete, others don't seem to.  I get an email for a specific reservation and can accept or decline.  If you decline too often, my guess is you are sent to the back of the line.  I have been asked to borrow additional points several times to complete a reservation which I have fulfilled.  I have made many families happy and now I'm the bad guy.  Seriously?
> 
> I have two pending that I can help with for about 12 months forward but will that help the MY renter?  I'm not Disney and can't be expected to have an unlimited supply of points that go for two years.  If I give 70% back (actually 53% after commission) if my renter took a voucher - where does the money go?  My gut says give back  the money, but will MY renter get it?  If I can help MY renter with a mutually acceptable reservation (if my pendings end up in this mess) I will.  I'm just hoping all goes well.  I can't control what I can't control.  I'm stuck in the middle and can't contact my owner as it's a breach of my contract.  These contracts were poorly written and now renters and owners are being asked to breach the contracts they signed by the company that created the contracts.  It seems that one party out of three seems to win here either way.
> 
> We as owners offer a discounted option for renters, who clearly have a choice to book direct or rent.  We only get $14.50 or $15.50 per point.  Note that we pay around $8.00 MF's for each point every year and then pay income taxes on the $14.50 or $15.50 and this doesn't even account for the tens of thousands we paid for our contracts.  An example $14.50 per point - $8 MF's - 25% tax = *$2.88 per point or $28.80 for a 10 point one night studio reservation*.  This is not a money maker.
> 
> I hope I can provide a bit more insight, but honestly expect to get flack for this post - so be it.  This has been debated for 129 pages and my final post won't solve anything, but I feel better.



I’ve also been following and participating in this thread from the beginning, and honestly, I think the flack is mostly directed at David’s. There have been a handful of renters upset with owners (without cause IMO), and at least as many owners looking down on renters and suggesting we’re looking for handouts. I mean, I was just told by another poster to deal direct with Disney and pay “full price” if I want assurances. Really?? 

Renters do pay full price, for the points DVC owners voluntarily rented out. Owners set the price, renters pay it in full, and we both get something out of this arrangement. We both deserve to have our interests reasonably protected. And there’s really no need for clients of David’s (in other side of the equation) to quarrel with each other here. 

In any event, with no recent developments to share on this topic, this thread feels like it’s devolving. I’m out. Good luck everyone.


----------



## Mumof4mice

DisneyBB said:


> This is the bit that would stop me cancelling without authorisation
> 
> “The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs“



@DisneyBB , it took over two weeks, but I was able to negotiate with David's to cancel/reschedule.

I had 4 upcoming bookings in Nov/Dec.  I specifically asked if David's will guarantee payment of the 30% balance if resorts close again (best effort made to rebook after I'm paid the balance).  They replied that I would not be paid the balance if resorts close again.  But "DO NOT CANCEL your reservations!"

I wrote them a strongly worded email, demanding to refund funds I received and cancel the reservations.  The team passed it onto management.  The director eventually came back to say that she would release me from the contracts, as long as I returned the funds already received.  And they will "refund or reschedule" the renters. 

During the two week wait, expecting David's to dig in their heels, I connected with two of my renters.  I cancelled their booking, had points returned to 2021, and re-booked them in the first month of the 2021 UY.  We informed David's, and updated the contracts (to the new, lousy one).  My renters were really happy and I felt that was a good compromise.  Since the points will not be expiring and worthless if the resorts closed again, the new contract risks were acceptable in this instance.  I'll gift friends or burn points on bungalows before I ever rent again. 

The end outcome was two reservations were cancelled, two were rescheduled.  I think David's, as with many other companies, will try their luck first to see what they can get away with.  But you don't have to accept their first offer and settle for something you're not comfortable with.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Bowen Family said:


> ...So will ‘my’ owner re-book these points for his own use by November 2020? Will he rent them to someone else? I have no idea. All I know for certain is I’ve paid $1,000’s for these points, and right now the owner has either 70% of my money and David’s the other 30%; or David’s has all of it.
> ...!


If the owner of the points still has their initial portion of money, they have about 53%, not 70%.  David has 46% of the amount you paid.  Now if the owner returned their initial disbursement, then David would have 100% of what you paid.


----------



## Madame

First time I’ve seen the updated contract.  I get why renters might continue to do business with David’s with a contract like that, just for the savings vs direct booking,  but seriously would anyone here rent their points out under that contract?

Want to make sure I’m not missing something here, but what’s in it for the owner vs private self-directed rental.  The only reason to use a broker was protection (which was obviously illusory).  Renters are easy to find, way more renters than owners lately, or a point transfer, even better.  I don’t get it


----------



## Amymouse13

MICKIMINI said:


> I participated in this thread from the beginning and have read every post since.  I am reading as I too want to understand how this is being handled by the broker who has complete control at this point.  I am tired of the animosity towards owners who have done nothing wrong.   I get that renters are upset and I would be too.  Owners DID NOT cause this debacle.
> 
> The specifics of the contracts are made known.   A request from a renter is made and shortly after a group of owners are approached.  Some owners have to compete, others don't seem to.  I get an email for a specific reservation and can accept or decline.  If you decline too often, my guess is you are sent to the back of the line.  I have been asked to borrow additional points several times to complete a reservation which I have fulfilled.  I have made many families happy and now I'm the bad guy.  Seriously?
> 
> I have two pending that I can help with for about 12 months forward but will that help the MY renter?  I'm not Disney and can't be expected to have an unlimited supply of points that go for two years.  If I give 70% back (actually 53% after commission) if my renter took a voucher - where does the money go?  My gut says give back  the money, but will MY renter get it?  If I can help MY renter with a mutually acceptable reservation (if my pendings end up in this mess) I will.  I'm just hoping all goes well.  I can't control what I can't control.  I'm stuck in the middle and can't contact my owner as it's a breach of my contract.  These contracts were poorly written and now renters and owners are being asked to breach the contracts they signed by the company that created the contracts.  It seems that one party out of three seems to win here either way.
> 
> We as owners offer a discounted option for renters, who clearly have a choice to book direct or rent.  We only get $14.50 or $15.50 per point.  Note that we pay around $8.00 MF's for each point every year and then pay income taxes on the $14.50 or $15.50 and this doesn't even account for the tens of thousands we paid for our contracts.  An example $14.50 per point - $8 MF's - 25% tax = *$2.88 per point or $28.80 for a 10 point one night studio reservation*.  This is not a money maker.
> 
> I hope I can provide a bit more insight, but honestly expect to get flack for this post - so be it.  This has been debated for 129 pages and my final post won't solve anything, but I feel better.



Oh contraire my dear owner, I see your side.  I fault no one but David for writing a poor contract.

Had I signed a contract they said no refunds even if a pandemic closes Disney for extended period of time, mea culpa.  

But I did not.  

Anyhow, is there a way to know the owner cancelled thus ensuring success of my chargeback?  For one I have an email from David's weeks out saying it was cancelled (back in March when he hoped to rebook), the other cancelled in mde days later without email.  Mde had no reservations on April 1 for April 18 thus clearly owner cancelled....


----------



## Bearval

Madame said:


> First time I’ve seen the updated contract.  I get why renters might continue to do business with David’s with a contract like that, just for the savings vs direct booking,  but seriously would anyone here rent their points out under that contract?
> 
> Want to make sure I’m not missing something here, but what’s in it for the owner vs private self-directed rental.  The only reason to use a broker was protection (which was obviously illusory).  Renters are easy to find, way more renters than owners lately, or a point transfer, even better.  I don’t get it


What is in it for the owner? The chance for the owner to pay a hefty finders fee to someone who gets the lions share after expenses and passes most of the risks onto the owners


----------



## Marionnette

Bowen Family said:


> I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.
> 
> 14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.


That’s the post-coronavirus contract. The contract that every renter that is dealing with a loss from this shutdown had different wording which made David’s responsible for refunding the renter. It was then up to David’s to recover from the owner.

ETA: The exact wording from the contract in effect at the time of March &April rentals is

"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX.XX US Dollars."

Note that it does not state that the owner pays the renter. Only that the renter is due a refund in the exact amount that they paid David's.


----------



## LAX

Bowen Family said:


> I don’t think David’s sees it your way, though. The quote below is directly from their website. It clearly says that where the owner is at fault, the owner is responsible for the renter’s refund.
> 
> 14. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that *Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner.* In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, *the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner*.



Wow! Another, and likely final, blow to David's business. I can't see how any owner would still want to rent points through this broker with this clause in the contract. If something happens to the reservation through no fault of my own, I am still on the hook?! Not only that, I am potentially required to pay extra $$ out of pocket for "comparable" accommodation??? Is he out of his mind???

Gee, I would rather gift the points if I don't want to bother renting them out on my own. Unless other brokers take the same stance, stick a fork into David's Vacation Club Rentals!

LAX


----------



## akadk

McCrae said:


> Do you offer your services at a big discount to your competitors and do your clients sign a no refunds or changes clause in your contracts?


Yes and yes, but we don't treat our clients like we are a charity. If you want free money just ask, many of us are happy to donate. We prefer to choose our donations, not be told whom to donate to. Never asked a client for money for no service; never will!


----------



## Madame

akadk said:


> Yes and yes, but we don't treat our clients like we are a charity. If you want free money just ask, many of us are happy to donate. We prefer to choose our donations, not be told whom to donate to. Never asked a client for money for no service; never will!


The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients.  This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all.  I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s.  Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.


----------



## DisneyBB

Mumof4mice said:


> @DisneyBB , it took over two weeks, but I was able to negotiate with David's to cancel/reschedule.
> 
> I had 4 upcoming bookings in Nov/Dec.  I specifically asked if David's will guarantee payment of the 30% balance if resorts close again (best effort made to rebook after I'm paid the balance).  They replied that I would not be paid the balance if resorts close again.  But "DO NOT CANCEL your reservations!"
> 
> I wrote them a strongly worded email, demanding to refund funds I received and cancel the reservations.  The team passed it onto management.  The director eventually came back to say that she would release me from the contracts, as long as I returned the funds already received.  And they will "refund or reschedule" the renters.
> 
> During the two week wait, expecting David's to dig in their heels, I connected with two of my renters.  I cancelled their booking, had points returned to 2021, and re-booked them in the first month of the 2021 UY.  We informed David's, and updated the contracts (to the new, lousy one).  My renters were really happy and I felt that was a good compromise.  Since the points will not be expiring and worthless if the resorts closed again, the new contract risks were acceptable in this instance.  I'll gift friends or burn points on bungalows before I ever rent again.
> 
> The end outcome was two reservations were cancelled, two were rescheduled.  I think David's, as with many other companies, will try their luck first to see what they can get away with.  But you don't have to accept their first offer and settle for something you're not comfortable with.



I have done just this with my rental families one has been rescheduled from August to jan and the other wants to stay put.  My point was I could not just cancel on my own as that would or could be an issue.  It had to be done via David.


----------



## moab44

I accepted the voucher. I got my code this week. I put in my new request for next year. Now we wait to see what happens next.


----------



## cdunn03

moab44 said:


> I accepted the voucher. I got my code this week. I put in my new request for next year. Now we wait to see what happens next.


Hi! I am glad that you were able to put in your request. Just wondering what your dates were?  I still haven’t heard from David’s and my DVC rental was for May 17th. Thanks!


----------



## moab44

cdunn03 said:


> Hi! I am glad that you were able to put in your request. Just wondering what your dates were?  I still haven’t heard from David’s and my DVC rental was for May 17th. Thanks!


My original dates were in April


----------



## Dracula

Madame said:


> The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients.  This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all.  I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s.  Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.



Thank you for asking me a direct question! The way I read the new contract, it seems that the owner needs to reimburse a renter with a canceled reservation due to action or omission of the owner. It is hard to see how a pandemic driven resort closure is an action of the owner; I see that David can make the argument that DVCM closes the resorts, and DVCM represents the owner; but I don’t see that being withheld in court. And the only way for David to recover losses on a contract would be to take the owner to court. I see no mention of need to refund for closures due to earthquakes, fires, hurricanes - all these things that never happen until they do.

Of more concern seems the clause that David would book the renter into another accommodation of his choosing, and the owner would pay the difference. This opens the door to uncapped liability, which is always a big risk. If David finds suitable to re-book the renter at Trump’s resort in Florida, maybe I cannot affford to pay for the upgrade. So, I would need to be extra careful to not cancel by mistake the renter’s reservation.

Look, my preference would be to rent any excess points directly so I can make more money. However, I think a broad, transparent marketplace in which large pools of owners are matched with large pools of renters can be more efficient. It is at times exhausting to explain to renters that they cannot book non-home resorts beyond 7 months, and it is not worth using BLT points on an OKW stay six weeks from today. And I also noticed that opportunities for direct  rental have dried up, whereas I know a guy in Canada with thousands of vouchers waiting to be redeemed. So yes, in the short term at least I still plan on renting some excess points through David.


----------



## New Mouse

Dracula said:


> Thank you for asking me a direct question! The way I read the new contract, it seems that the owner needs to reimburse a renter with a canceled reservation due to action or omission of the owner. It is hard to see how a pandemic driven resort closure is an action of the owner; I see that David can make the argument that DVCM closes the resorts, and DVCM represents the owner; but I don’t see that being withheld in court. And the only way for David to recover losses on a contract would be to take the owner to court. I see no mention of need to refund for closures due to earthquakes, fires, hurricanes - all these things that never happen until they do.
> 
> Of more concern seems the clause that David would book the renter into another accommodation of his choosing, and the owner would pay the difference. This opens the door to uncapped liability, which is always a big risk. If David finds suitable to re-book the renter at Trump’s resort in Florida, maybe I cannot affford to pay for the upgrade. So, I would need to be extra careful to not cancel by mistake the renter’s reservation.
> 
> Look, my preference would be to rent any excess points directly so I can make more money. However, I think a broad, transparent marketplace in which large pools of owners are matched with large pools of renters can be more efficient. It is at times exhausting to explain to renters that they cannot book non-home resorts beyond 7 months, and it is not worth using BLT points on an OKW stay six weeks from today. And I also noticed that opportunities for direct  rental have dried up, whereas I know a guy in Canada with thousands of vouchers waiting to be redeemed. So yes, in the short term at least I still plan on renting some excess points through David.



Especially if its peak season in the area.


----------



## McCrae

Madame said:


> The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients.  This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all.  I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s.  Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.



Until owners receive direct payment from renters, renters will remain David’s clients.


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

Dracula said:


> I have received a credit on the account immediately after submitting the dispute online with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card.


We just did the same--do you still have the refund?  Did they request any kind of other paperwork/verification from you?  Any and all tips welcome.


----------



## banzai75

AnnieMouseMom said:


> We just did the same--do you still have the refund?  Did they request any kind of other paperwork/verification from you?  Any and all tips welcome.



I added the contract as additional information. Highlighted the lack of a force majeure clause.  Also there was something in there about if no acclamations available a refund is due. I put that in there too.


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

Thank you so much! I imagine we will he asked for the same info, so I appreciate this!


----------



## Bearval

LAX said:


> Wow! Another, and likely final, blow to David's business. I can't see how any owner would still want to rent points through this broker with this clause in the contract. If something happens to the reservation through no fault of my own, I am still on the hook?! Not only that, I am potentially required to pay extra $$ out of pocket for "comparable" accommodation??? Is he out of his mind???
> 
> Gee, I would rather gift the points if I don't want to bother renting them out on my own. Unless other brokers take the same stance, stick a fork into David's Vacation Club Rentals!
> 
> LAX


Problem is alot of people do not read the fine print until there is a problem.  Knowing that the new contract puts all of the liability on the owner including additional costs above and beyond what the renter was paying will make me never use Davids to rent my extra points.


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> Problem is alot of people do not read the fine print until there is a problem.  Knowing that the new contract puts all of the liability on the owner including additional costs above and beyond what the renter was paying will make me never use Davids to rent my extra points.


This potential liability is not new, it’s why owners have been waiting for Disney to cancel.

What is new is the requirement for owners to pay back the monies if the reservation is cancelled by Disney.  This will reduce the appeal of renting.


----------



## Tiggr88

McCrae said:


> This potential liability is not new, it’s why owners have been waiting for Disney to cancel.
> 
> What is new is the requirement for owners to pay back the monies if the reservation is cancelled by Disney.  This will reduce the appeal of renting.


That's interesting. I thought when I read a few thousand pages back that the new contract said that the renter would not get a refund if Disney cancelled. I thought they added pandemic to the reasons that the renter would not be compensated.

The only time the owner would be responsible is if they cancelled or were responsible for the reservation not being available. 

Then again, it still seemed a little confusing when I read it.


----------



## cdunn03

moab44 said:


> My original dates were in April


Thank You


----------



## LAX

McCrae said:


> This potential liability is not new, it’s why owners have been waiting for Disney to cancel.
> 
> What is new is the requirement for owners to pay back the monies if the reservation is cancelled by Disney.  This will reduce the appeal of renting.



Well, it turns out that potential liability is not new despite of prominent claims by the broker on its website otherwise. However, the new contract (at least the excerpt posted here) not only clearly dumps that liability onto the owners, it also ADDS that owners can be responsible for ADDITIONAL out of pocket cost for "comparable" accommodation to compensate the affected renters. That's not even factoring in that the owners may potentially get stuck with useless points.

The owners get to fork over $4-5 per point while taking on all these risks?? I just don't understand why anyone would knowingly do this.

LAX


----------



## Amymouse13

So how can a renter know for sure if Disney or the owner cancelled...


----------



## Bearval

LAX said:


> Well, it turns out that potential liability is not new despite of prominent claims by the broker on its website otherwise. However, the new contract (at least the excerpt posted here) not only clearly dumps that liability onto the owners, it also ADDS that owners can be responsible for ADDITIONAL out of pocket cost for "comparable" accommodation to compensate the affected renters. That's not even factoring in that the owners may potentially get stuck with useless points.
> 
> The owners get to fork over $4-5 per point while taking on all these risks?? I just don't understand why anyone would knowingly do this.
> 
> LAX


I agree that was the point I was try to make in an earlier reply. A renter reading the new contract would be quite happy.


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> So how can a renter know for sure if Disney or the owner cancelled...



Honestly, it would probably difficult at this point.  However, a call by a DVC owner asking when they are being canceled might be a clu.

But, Davids or a renter wouldn’t have any proof for sure and would not be able to get that information from DVC either about a specific reservation.


----------



## DebbieB

banzai75 said:


> Does anyone else find it strange that David or his representative is not posting on here at all?
> 
> The only comments they post are on Facebook that say to contact the office.



They don't want to put anything in writing that could later be used against them.    Smart legal move.


----------



## Amymouse13

Bearval said:


> I agree that was the point I was try to make in an earlier reply. A renter reading the new contract would be quite happy.



I thought new renter contract said no refunds for pandemics, hurricanes, etc... Seems this clause pertains to if owner cancels??


----------



## Bowen Family

Amymouse13 said:


> So how can a renter know for sure if Disney or the owner cancelled...



I read on another thread that DVC members were having their reservations cancelled by DVC 5 days out from check-in. I can’t verify this obviously, but I can tell you that my May 10 check-in (via rented points) is still in my MDE. So if it disappears May 5, that rolling 5-day policy may be correct. And if your res disappears earlier than 5 days out, may be the member that cancelled it. But hard to know for sure.


----------



## Dracula

Bowen Family said:


> I read on another thread that DVC members were having their reservations cancelled by DVC 5 days out from check-in. I can’t verify this obviously, but I can tell you that my May 10 check-in (via rented points) is still in my MDE. So if it disappears May 5, that rolling 5-day policy may be correct. And if your res disappears earlier than 5 days out, may be the member that cancelled it. But hard to know for sure.


So far I had a couple of reservations canceled by Disney exactly seven days before check-in. There is no cancellation message - just the reservation disappears from the DVC member’s online dashboard.


----------



## LAX

Bearval said:


> I agree that was the point I was try to make in an earlier reply. *A renter reading the new contract would be quite happy.*



Maybe David's new business plan is to buy a bunch of DVC contracts in the next year or two during the recession. Otherwise, he is going to find DVC points much harder to come by to rent. While there are some people who don't read the fine prints, I imagine a fair number of owners would do a quick google search before putting hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of points for rent. Hopefully, they will end up finding warnings on sites such as this or other similar ones.

LAX


----------



## Bowen Family

Dracula said:


> So far I had a couple of reservations canceled by Disney exactly seven days before check-in. There is no cancellation message - just the reservation disappears from the DVC member’s online dashboard.



Interesting. I’m 7 days out and my res is still there, so DVC is not totally consistent on this.


----------



## Amymouse13

Bowen Family said:


> Interesting. I’m 7 days out and my res is still there, so DVC is not totally consistent on this.



Both of mine (split stay were gone over 18 days out) know one was cancelled by owner and have email from David's saying such.  Presume other was but can't prove it.


----------



## Bowen Family

Amymouse13 said:


> Both of mine (split stay were gone over 18 days out) know one was cancelled by owner and have email from David's saying such.  Presume other was but can't prove it.



I’m just curious - why would David’s confirm one cancellation for you and not the other? Or was the 2nd not through them?


----------



## Amymouse13

Bowen Family said:


> I’m just curious - why would David’s confirm one cancellation for you and not the other? Or was the 2nd not through them?



This was their first plan, to rebook folks with same owners... So they reached out to both, the one cancelled and awaited what would happen with other... Never heard anything more from David's despite calling and emailing- then the other one disappeared from mde and then heard about this voucher program...


----------



## Bowen Family

Amymouse13 said:


> This was their first plan, to rebook folks with same owners... So they reached out to both, the one cancelled and awaited what would happen with other... Never heard anything more from David's despite calling and emailing- then the other one disappeared from mde and then heard about this voucher program...



Got it. Thanks! You know it’s funny, I think David’s initial post in all of this was the right instinct. I don’t have it in front of me, but it was something along the lines of ‘many variables’ and working together, etc. to find the right solutions. And then the whole voucher thing dropped...


----------



## Amymouse13

Bowen Family said:


> Got it. Thanks! You know it’s funny, I think David’s initial post in all of this was the right instinct. I don’t have it in front of me, but it was something along the lines of ‘many variables’ and working together, etc. to find the right solutions. And then the whole voucher thing...



They had eluded other owner's points were going to expire and had two March rentals too.  So possibly in my case they could have rebooked half but not other?  We put in chargeback back in March.


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> Interesting. I’m 7 days out and my res is still there, so DVC is not totally consistent on this.



They are doing week by week Monday to Friday.  Although today is 7 days, it is a Sunday, so I assume that could be why


----------



## Bowen Family

Amymouse13 said:


> They had eluded other owner's points were going to expire and had two March rentals too.  So possibly in my case they could have rebooked half but not other?  We put in chargeback back in March.



March? You seem ahead of the curve! Will you share your outcome here? We reached out to David’s expressing concerns and seeking some clarifications with the voucher. We told them we could never accept it as written. Still awaiting a response. So looks very likely we’ll go the chargeback route once our May 10 res disappears this week. I truly don’t wish their company ill will but I just don’t have faith in the solution offered.


----------



## Bowen Family

Sandisw said:


> They are doing week by week Monday to Friday.  Although today is 7 days, it is a Sunday, so I assume that could be why



That makes sense! Thanks.


----------



## Bearval

LAX said:


> Maybe David's new business plan is to buy a bunch of DVC contracts in the next year or two during the recession. Otherwise, he is going to find DVC points much harder to come by to rent. While there are some people who don't read the fine prints, I imagine a fair number of owners would do a quick google search before putting hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of points for rent. Hopefully, they will end up finding warnings on sites such as this or other similar ones.
> 
> LAX


I am pretty sure DVC has a clause against buying contracts for the sole purpose of renting.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

Bearval said:


> I am pretty sure DVC has a clause against buying contracts for the sole purpose of renting.


They do.  There is also a limit on the number of points an individual may own.  4000 points maximum at any one resort and 8000 points across all DVC resorts.  This is across any and all contracts that have your name on it.


----------



## SherylLC

Bearval said:


> Problem is alot of people do not read the fine print until there is a problem.  Knowing that the new contract puts all of the liability on the owner including additional costs above and beyond what the renter was paying will make me never use Davids to rent my extra points.


Totally agree! I wonder if owners realize that this coming fall 2020 (if history of past pandemics repeats itself) we will be right back here where we are now, except at that time it will likely be even worse (more deaths. people becoming even more ill). Knowing this, why would any owner want any part of a Davids contract? He is passing the burden back onto the owners....beware!


----------



## Cyberc1978

SherylLC said:


> Totally agree! I wonder if owners realize that next fall (if history of past pandemics repeats itself) we will be right back here where we are now, except at that time it will likely be even worse (more deaths. people becoming even more ill). Knowing this, why would any owner want any part of a Davids contract? He is passing the burden back onto the owners....beware!



if the past is any guide for the future then there will be a second wave and maybe a third.

With that in mind I would be very cautious renting as an owner or renter because the risk is much higher that the reservation end up being cancelled.


----------



## DisneyBB

Cyberc1978 said:


> if the past is any guide for the future then there will be a second wave and maybe a third.
> 
> With that in mind I would be very cautious renting as an owner or renter because the risk is much higher that the reservation end up being cancelled.


This is the section of the contract is showing what would happen if the booking was cancelled through no fault of the owner.

12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.

The other section is if the owner cancels.


----------



## McCrae

LAX said:


> Well, it turns out that potential liability is not new despite of prominent claims by the broker on its website otherwise. However, the new contract (at least the excerpt posted here) not only clearly dumps that liability onto the owners, it also ADDS that owners can be responsible for ADDITIONAL out of pocket cost for "comparable" accommodation to compensate the affected renters. That's not even factoring in that the owners may potentially get stuck with useless points.
> 
> The owners get to fork over $4-5 per point while taking on all these risks?? I just don't understand why anyone would knowingly do this.
> 
> LAX



The section posted here was very similar to the conditions in the old contract.


----------



## Cyberc1978

DisneyBB said:


> This is the section of the contract is showing what would happen if the booking was cancelled through no fault of the owner.
> 
> 12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.
> 
> The other section is if the owner cancels.



From what I can read it does not say that owners should refund any money due to force majeure.


----------



## DisneyBB

Cyberc1978 said:


> From what I can read it does not say that owners should refund any money due to force majeure.


This the section on the owners new contract


In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has paid 70% of the funds collected for the reservation from Guest to DVC Owner pursuant to 4(f) of this Agreement, DVC Owner will return to Intermediary the full amount it has already received from Intermediary, as soon as is reasonably possible after the conditions(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to DVC Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to DVC Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.


----------



## Cyberc1978

DisneyBB said:


> This the section on the owners new contract
> 
> 
> In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has paid 70% of the funds collected for the reservation from Guest to DVC Owner pursuant to 4(f) of this Agreement, DVC Owner will return to Intermediary the full amount it has already received from Intermediary, as soon as is reasonably possible after the conditions(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to DVC Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to DVC Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.



Oh I see. So the owners and renters are left paying the bill and David’s keeping the money.

If David’s can pull this off he can pocket owners and renters money for years to come.


----------



## DisneyBB

Cyberc1978 said:


> Oh I see. So the owners and renters are left paying the bill and David’s keeping the money.
> 
> If David’s can pull this off he can pocket owners and renters money for years to come.


For new rentals, I rescheduled my renter and they had a new contract that said in the event of a pandemic etc they get a travel voucher.  I didn’t sign a new contract as a owner.


----------



## Cyberc1978

DisneyBB said:


> For new rentals, I rescheduled my renter and they had a new contract that said in the event of a pandemic etc they get a travel voucher.  I didn’t sign a new contract as a owner.


I foresee that the owners contract is going to change again as a lot of owners wont accept those terms.


----------



## LAX

DisneyBB said:


> This the section on the owners new contract
> 
> 
> In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has paid 70% of the funds collected for the reservation from Guest to DVC Owner pursuant to 4(f) of this Agreement, DVC Owner will return to Intermediary the full amount it has already received from Intermediary, as soon as is reasonably possible after the conditions(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to DVC Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to DVC Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.



Ok. This clause somewhat clarifies what would be not considered owner's fault. However, it still leaves the owner holding the bag even when the broker still gets to keep the commission, like someone already mentioned.

I think the shaft now has effectively shifted from the renters to the owners. Guess what? Many owners likely won't rent their points through this broker because why pay $4-5 per point while still taking on all the risks. If I am willing to take risks, I might as well pocket the commission myself. In other words, is match-making alone really worth the commission being charged? Perhaps some owners might feel that way, but are there enough of them?

LAX


----------



## Cyberc1978

LAX said:


> Ok. This clause somewhat clarifies what would be not considered owner's fault. However, it still leaves the owner holding the bag even when the broker still gets to keep the commission, like someone already mentioned.
> 
> I think the shaft now has effectively shifted from the renters to the owners. Guess what? Many owners likely won't rent their points through this broker because why pay $4-5 per point while still taking on all the risks. If I am willing to take risks, I might as well pocket the commission myself. In other words, is match-making alone really worth the commission being charged? Perhaps some owners might feel that way, but are there enough of them?
> 
> LAX


I agree, when enough owners wont use Davids he needs to amend the contract as he wont make any money. In the end this will effect renters with a voucher unless renters goes for a cash stay but end result may be the same if Davids can't get enough money to cover the cash bookings the booking will end up being cancelled by Disney.


----------



## McCrae

Cyberc1978 said:


> I agree, when enough owners wont use Davids he needs to amend the contract as he wont make any money. In the end this will effect renters with a voucher unless renters goes for a cash stay but end result may be the same if Davids can't get enough money to cover the cash bookings the booking will end up being cancelled by Disney.



Potentially I would be willing to re-rent my points. For now I am just waiting to see how things evolve. The new owners contract makes it less likely that I will use David’s again.  I don’t want to have points that could expire worthless.  Renters can get insurance to cover cancellation risks, owners can’t.  It has to be worthwhile for me to rent out my points.


----------



## DisneyBB

I think it will change how people rent their points.  For instance if I did rent again I would ensure I only took rentals for the first 8 months of my use year.  Def not use banked points.  So the pool of potential owners renting will go down as most people will think this way.


----------



## Bearval

DisneyBB said:


> This is the section of the contract is showing what would happen if the booking was cancelled through no fault of the owner.
> 
> 12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is _______________ US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.
> 
> The other section is if the owner cancels.


But here is the problem with the contract. If an owner has to wait until DVC cancels the reservation even though it is obvious that the resort will be closed weeks in advance of when DVC does the cancelations it may be past the time the owner can bank the points to the next year.   There is no guarantee that DVC will extend the life of the points again. In the new contract only The renter and David's is left whole. Owners get screwed.


----------



## Amymouse13

Well if owners and renters don't like David's terms, I'm sure there are other dvc rental companies or soon will be... If David's leaves a vacuum it will soon be filled by a more astute business person that is perhaps more ethical and just.... IMO


----------



## Bowen Family

Bearval said:


> But here is the problem with the contract. If an owner has to wait until DVC cancels the reservation even though it is obvious that the resort will be closed weeks in advance of when DVC does the cancelations it may be past the time the owner can bank the points to the next year.   There is no guarantee that DVC will extend the life of the points again. In the new contract only The renter and David's is left whole. Owners get screwed.



I wouldn’t personally describe the voucher being offered to renters as being made whole. David’s reserves the right to modify and even rescind the voucher as they see fit. Under the new terms of unforeseen cancellations, it seems members can be made whole if they are able to re-use their returned points; and renters only if/after their credit results in a completed stay. So good outcomes are still possible for both parties, but with lots more uncertainty. Except, of course, no uncertainty for David’s. They’ve definitely covered themselves.


----------



## Bowen Family

Bowen Family said:


> I wouldn’t personally describe the voucher being offered to renters as being made whole. David’s reserves the right to modify and even rescind the voucher as they see fit. Under the new terms of unforeseen cancellations, it seems members can be made whole if they are able to re-use their returned points; and renters only if/after their credit results in a completed stay. So good outcomes are still possible for both parties, but with lots more uncertainty. Except, of course, no uncertainty for David’s. They’ve definitely covered themselves.



EDIT: I just read the new sample rental agreement, and it’s different than the voucher terms offered for current cancellations. Yeah, agreed, these terms really aren’t great for members unless you’re assured of using returned points. But since a lot of members rent out ‘older’ points, it leaves you at higher risk.


----------



## Bearval

Bowen Family said:


> EDIT: I just read the new sample rental agreement, and it’s different than the voucher terms offered for current cancellations. Yeah, agreed, these terms really aren’t great for members unless you’re assured of using returned points. But since a lot of members rent out ‘older’ points, it leaves you at higher risk.


I don't have ever have a huge amount of excess points if any at all. If I do I will offer them for rent to family, friends or to church members at a $1.00 cheaper than a place such as David's and I will use contract.   If an incident arises out of everyone's control i(such as another pandemic) I would eat the loss if there was one but I would have the ability to work with the renter to reschedule or cancel so that no one loses anything.


----------



## CraigInPA

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> They do.  There is also a limit on the number of points an individual may own.  4000 points maximum at any one resort and 8000 points across all DVC resorts.  This is across any and all contracts that have your name on it.



Apparently, the limit is based upon how the title reads. So, John A. Doe gets the first 8000, John B. Doe gets the next 8000, and so on.


----------



## Kaufeegurl

I have been following this thread and I will NEVER rent my excess points through David's again. I used him twice for reservations last year and the rentals were flawless, but the exposure of his character and his new contract guarantees I will not use his company again. In fact, if I have excess points going forward, I will go the transfer route with this site's sponsor - I truly do not want to hold a reservation for a renter again. It will be interesting to see if he even survives this as I think a lot of owners' eyes have been opened (mine included) and they will look for alternatives to the admittedly prior ease of renting points through what was thought a reputable company. And renters will not be flocking back when they calculate how little savings they get along with an onerous contract compared to the assurance of booking directly with Disney.


----------



## Dracula

Madame said:


> The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients.  This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all.  I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s.  Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.


Bonjour Madame,
As I read the clause that owner needs to refund David in full in case of force majeure, irrespective of points status, so David can issue his credit voucher to the renter, I am inclined to not rent through David again, especially if other brokers offer other, more fair ways to split the loss caused by force majeure. Hopefully other brokers would rise to fill the gap, or maybe an owner co-op.


----------



## Madame

Dracula said:


> Bonjour Madame,
> As I read the clause that owner needs to refund David in full in case of force majeure, irrespective of points status, so David can issue his credit voucher to the renter, I am inclined to not rent through David again, especially if other brokers offer other, more fair ways to split the loss caused by force majeure. Hopefully other brokers would rise to fill the gap, or maybe an owner co-op.


That's the way I was reading it too.  Thanks for updating!


----------



## akadk

Madame said:


> The renters are David’s clients, not the owners’ clients.  This is on him and he knows it as evidenced by the ridiculous new contract which totally absolves him of any responsibility at all.  I’m curious, now that we’ve seen the contract @Dracula, if you will still rent out via David’s.  Not being snarky, genuinely looking for your take.



Once we received the "new language", we started this process understanding this situation was no one's fault. Since we disagreed with new terms, we simply contacted David's and asked to waive the language of "if next trip is cancelled, money lost." We didn't want a refund from owner or David's. Once they declined to "make any exceptions in fairness to all clients", things got weird.

No, we would not use David's again if contracts have any disclaimers that include the possibility of no trip and loss of funds. Note: We already have another November 2020 trip booked - separate booking - not looking forward to that potential outcome either.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Bonjour Madame,
> As I read the clause that owner needs to refund David in full in case of force majeure, irrespective of points status, so David can issue his credit voucher to the renter, I am inclined to not rent through David again, especially if other brokers offer other, more fair ways to split the loss caused by force majeure. Hopefully other brokers would rise to fill the gap, or maybe an owner co-op.


To summarize what I think I understand in reading the last few pages:

David has a new clause that requires owners to refund the 70% in the event of a force majeure.  However, he keeps his commission, and when the owner refunds David, he will only issue a travel voucher to the renter (I assume under the same terms the travel voucher has now).   So, he just put in to writing what he was trying to do right now, but couldn't because it wasn't in the original Agreement signed with the owner.

Also, if the cost of a replacement room has increased, the owner now is responsible to pay the difference for "suitable accommodations" and David has the sole discretion to decide what he constituents as suitable and equal to the original rental?


----------



## devlin447

karpy111 said:


> I follow these thread pretty closely.  Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.
> 
> I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.
> 
> First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.
> 
> Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.
> 
> Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.



Thank you for sharing. I have an upcoming rental myself and have been debating my options. 

I wasn't able to find in a previous thread but has anyone actually had any luck with executing a credit card charge back? I am just curious if it is even really a viable option.

I also have travel insurance but not the Cancel for Any Reason kind. I know every policy is different but has anyone had any luck with travel insurance that wasn't cancel for any reason?

Lastly, has anyone accepted the travel credit from Davids? On the surface, it seems like a resonable solution to a very difficult problem. There is just so much risk involved that I won't know the outcome of until I reschedule and go on said vacation.  

Thanks.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> To summarize what I think I understand in reading the last few pages:
> 
> David has a new clause that requires owners to refund the 70% in the event of a force majeure.  However, he keeps his commission, and when the owner refunds David, he will only issue a travel voucher to the renter (I assume under the same terms the travel voucher has now).   So, he just put in to writing what he was trying to do right now, but couldn't because it wasn't in the original Agreement signed with the owner.
> 
> Also, if the cost of a replacement room has increased, the owner now is responsible to pay the difference for "suitable accommodations" and David has the sole discretion to decide what he constituents as suitable and equal to the original rental?



The owner is only responsible for the cost difference if they cancel.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> The owner is only responsible for the cost difference if they cancel.


I've been trying to follow the posts of the Agreement changes and it's been confusing.  I wish I had the old and the new side-by-side. 

What new paragraph is that spelled out in?  I saw a #12 & #14

Again, an effort to stop what's happening now, some owners cancelling or re-booking a renter behind David's back as the intermediary?


----------



## Bowen Family

devlin447 said:


> Thank you for sharing. I have an upcoming rental myself and have been debating my options.
> 
> I wasn't able to find in a previous thread but has anyone actually had any luck with executing a credit card charge back? I am just curious if it is even really a viable option.
> 
> I also have travel insurance but not the Cancel for Any Reason kind. I know every policy is different but has anyone had any luck with travel insurance that wasn't cancel for any reason?
> 
> Lastly, has anyone accepted the travel credit from Davids? On the surface, it seems like a resonable solution to a very difficult problem. There is just so much risk involved that I won't know the outcome of until I reschedule and go on said vacation.
> 
> Thanks.



I haven’t seen a single report yet on outcomes of chargebacks, and there was someone on here yesterday that filed theirs back in March. So it clearly takes time. 

I have seen one report of a denied insurance claim on the grounds that the voucher was offered, but with the caveat they could try again if the voucher failed to deliver.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I've been trying to follow the posts of the Agreement changes and it's been confusing.  I wish I had the old and the new side-by-side.
> 
> What new paragraph is that spelled out in?  I saw a #12 & #14
> 
> Again, an effort to stop what's happening now, some owners cancelling or re-booking a renter behind David's back as the intermediary?



The paragraph about an owner being responsible is in the contract for the renter that the owner is a part of along with the renter and broker,

The part about returning the 70% paid to them in the event of a force majeure is the owners contract,

So, based on that, even if I was considering them in the future, which I am not, these clauses would turn me way off.


----------



## momincolorado

devlin447 said:


> Thank you for sharing. I have an upcoming rental myself and have been debating my options.
> 
> I wasn't able to find in a previous thread but has anyone actually had any luck with executing a credit card charge back? I am just curious if it is even really a viable option.
> 
> I also have travel insurance but not the Cancel for Any Reason kind. I know every policy is different but has anyone had any luck with travel insurance that wasn't cancel for any reason?
> 
> Lastly, has anyone accepted the travel credit from Davids? On the surface, it seems like a resonable solution to a very difficult problem. There is just so much risk involved that I won't know the outcome of until I reschedule and go on said vacation.
> 
> Thanks.



Quite a few renters have chargebacks pending with provisional credits placed back to their accounts and awaiting final outcome.

I know that credit card travel insurance is a no go due to the voucher option but the chargeback is an option even if the insurance is not.

Personally, I could not accept the voucher under T&Cs that clearly state that David’s is under no obligation to fulfill it in the first place. I also think there is a good possibility that he won’t have enough points to make the vouchers work leaving the renter with cash booking (that does not qualify for the same promotions and cancellation benefits that Disney offers) as the only option. And of course if he goes under, the vouchers are completely worthless. I would much rather take my chances with the chargeback, put the money back into my account and not have it tied up with David’s. If the chargeback is successful, I can then make my own decisions about what works best for accommodations going forward.

He has also indicated to renters that the voucher option will remain on the table if the chargeback fails so the way I see it, there is nothing to lose by going the chargeback route first.


----------



## Amymouse13

Seems in summary in the new contract if pandemic hits everyone has agreed to pay David's and as renter is offered a voucher and agreed to force majeure clause, no chargeback.  Basically David wins, everyone else stands to lose, just so we all know the new game.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> They do.  There is also a limit on the number of points an individual may own.  4000 points maximum at any one resort and 8000 points across all DVC resorts.  This is across any and all contracts that have your name on it.


Darn!  4000 points is just a little shy of allowing me to move into AKV as my permanent residence!   



Amymouse13 said:


> Seems in summary in the new contract if pandemic hits everyone has agreed to pay David's and as renter is offered a voucher and agreed to force majeure clause, no chargeback.  Basically David wins, everyone else stands to lose, just so we all know the new game.


----------



## Deb & Bill

LAX said:


> Maybe David's new business plan is to buy a bunch of DVC contracts in the next year or two during the recession. Otherwise, he is going to find DVC points much harder to come by to rent. While there are some people who don't read the fine prints, I imagine a fair number of owners would do a quick google search before putting hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of points for rent. Hopefully, they will end up finding warnings on sites such as this or other similar ones.
> 
> LAX


That would require David to put out a lot of cash to buy all those premium resorts, plus to pay all their annual fees.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Bowen Family said:


> I haven’t seen a single report yet on outcomes of chargebacks, and there was someone on here yesterday that filed theirs back in March. So it clearly takes time.
> 
> I have seen one report of a denied insurance claim on the grounds that the voucher was offered, but with the caveat they could try again if the voucher failed to deliver.


Yeah I have a received provisional credit on my card from the chargeback I filed in Mid-April.  The bank told me not to spend it for 30 days or so while they give David's more time to respond but he hasn't as of yet.


----------



## LAX

CraigInPA said:


> Apparently, the limit is based upon how the title reads. So, John A. Doe gets the first 8000, John B. Doe gets the next 8000, and so on.



I was going to say if there is a will (and cash), there is a way! My comment about David's getting his own supply of points was more or less tongue-in-cheek. He is acting as if he is the only game in town. I think unless other brokers go in the same direction (which they might, similar to what airlines do), he won't have enough points to rent. He already claimed he was in short supply pre-COVID, and he will get even less now after this self-destruction, IMHO.

Even if all brokers end up being anti-owners, most owners would still be better off doing points transfer or renting on their own. I would even argue that gifting to friends and family is a better option than worrying about whether the resort would be open at the time of a rented reservation. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions before on this thread, if I end up running the risk of losing points (risk of another pandemic/event shutting all DVC resorts is admittedly small, but you never know), what's the point of renting?

LAX


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

LAX said:


> I was going to say if there is a will (and cash), there is a way! My comment about David's getting his own supply of points was more or less tongue-in-cheek. He is acting as if he is the only game in town. I think unless other brokers go in the same direction (which they might, similar to what airlines do), he won't have enough points to rent. He already claimed he was in short supply pre-COVID, and he will get even less now after this self-destruction, IMHO.
> 
> Even if all brokers end up being anti-owners, most owners would still be better off doing points transfer or renting on their own. I would even argue that gifting to friends and family is a better option than worrying about whether the resort would be open at the time of a rented reservation. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions before on this thread, if I end up running the risk of losing points (risk of another pandemic/event shutting all DVC resorts is admittedly small, but you never know), what's the point of renting?
> 
> LAX


Recall David is not a corporation but an individual working with family.  I don't know how many family but 4 or 5 adds up to a lot of points... 8K for 4 people is 32K points.  32K making (?) 2 point after the work aspect of Dave is over (out of commission) still is 64K per year in savings on his own commission.  Then 6 more after dues.  It adds and he is in the business it would be really smart of them


----------



## Dracula

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Recall David is not a corporation but an individual working with family.  I don't know how many family but 4 or 5 adds up to a lot of points... 8K for 4 people is 32K points.  32K making (?) 2 point after the work aspect of Dave is over (out of commission) still is 64K per year in savings on his own commission.  Then 6 more after dues.  It adds and he is in the business it would be really smart of them


But DVC points represent a real estate interest, an asset, and in bankruptcy creditors would come after David's assets. Why would David set up a business that is limited by how much capital he has, and whatever rules Disney comes up with, when he can grow an intermediary model with nearly zero capital investment? I am sure that if his contract is not acceptable to owners, he would need to change it again. Furthermore, in a pandemic or other force majeure, David would still lose the use of his points, just like the owners do. I am fairly confident David wants to run a business as an intermediary, not renting out his own points.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> 8K for 4 people is 32K points.




Hmmm... so if I put 4000 points in my name and 4000 points in my wife's name, we *CAN *live at AKV!!!!!!!


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Dracula said:


> But DVC points represent a real estate interest, an asset, and in bankruptcy creditors would come after David's assets. Why would David set up a business that is limited by how much capital he has, and whatever rules Disney comes up with, when he can grow an intermediary model with nearly zero capital investment? I am sure that if his contract is not acceptable to owners, he would need to change it again. Furthermore, in a pandemic or other force majeure, David would still lose the use of his points, just like the owners do. I am fairly confident David wants to run a business as an intermediary, not renting out his own points.


As a rhetorical question I have no answer.  David has decided to do and has done many things, just recently that not only make no sense to me but that seem to me to make his business and his problems worse.

But if I were in the business buying a lot of 60-70 per point contracts not caring about the annual pass or any discount seems to generate a great ROI.  There probably is SOME reason he did not limit his liability


----------



## LAX

Dracula said:


> But DVC points represent a real estate interest, an asset, and in bankruptcy creditors would come after David's assets. Why would David set up a business that is limited by how much capital he has, and whatever rules Disney comes up with, when he can grow an intermediary model with nearly zero capital investment? I am sure that if his contract is not acceptable to owners, he would need to change it again. Furthermore, in a pandemic or other force majeure, David would still lose the use of his points, just like the owners do. *I am fairly confident David wants to run a business as an intermediary, not renting out his own points*.



The way he has it set up, it's a no brainer! I can make tons of $$$ while other people (mostly owners) take on the risks. Who wouldn't want a "risk-free" money-making scheme?! Heck, if I can find these owners, I am willing to undercut David's commission.

LAX


----------



## cmrdgrs

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess.  For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see?  What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?


----------



## yankeesfan123

cmrdgrs said:


> So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess.  For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see?  What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?
> 
> And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?
> 
> I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?


I’d love to answer... but I think it might start an argument.

The only way to avoid an argument is to make David’s take all the risk. But that’s not realistic.


----------



## Madame

cmrdgrs said:


> So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess.  For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see?  What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?
> 
> And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?
> 
> I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?


Brokers should only take points that won’t be lost due to force majeure.  Owners should only offer points that they won’t lose because of the same.  I bet a huge share of points rented via brokers do not have a big window of use (banked).  

If I were a renter I would not want to rent points about to expire, or would expect a larger discount.  

I personally won’t ever use a broker again.  I’ll rent out myself, using one of The excellent contracts found here and make sure the renter knows the life of the points.  I think that would be fair.  Brokers can do one.  Useless services.


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess.  For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see?  What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?
> 
> And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?
> 
> I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?



If I was to book with a broker again, I think i would want to see that if something happens via resort closure, that the renter is entitled to a reschedule to be worked out with the owner.

If no reschdule can happen, then the owner keeps the 70% paid, and is done with the transaction.  The broker can then make whatever deal they want with the renter as they still have the 30% not paid to the owner and their commission.


----------



## cmrdgrs

yankeesfan123 said:


> I’d love to answer... but I think it might start an argument.
> 
> The only way to avoid an argument is to make David’s take all the risk. But that’s not realistic.


You could PM me, I'm very curious what people are thinking.


----------



## Amymouse13

Interesting question... I'm glad I found this group to learn contract law... 

It seems the owners simply want their money due and renters just want their reservation.  I'm not sure we should presume a pandemic would occur again, but we also aren't out of this one.  As the number of deaths seems to be constantly increasing, I'm less convinced I'd be wanting to go to Disney any time again soon... I'm not even convinced there will for sure be a vaccine.  

The biggest question is my mind is how dvc acts to make owners whole.  I'm not for screwing over the owner, I'm not for owner double dipping, and I'm not for David double dipping.

Ideally same owner and renter rebooking... Guess that means points not expiring.  Maybe those need different price and contract


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess.  For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see?  What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?
> 
> And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?
> 
> I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?


I think a $3 per point commission is fair for intermediating between owners and renters. In exchange, the intermediary would assume credit card fees ~$0.60 per point, and reimburse the renter in case of resort closure, with the owner having to re-rent points or, if the points expire, getting to keep the 70% but forgoing the 30% remainder. Hopefully in a couple of years the pandemic would be behind us and will become an insurable risk.


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> Interesting question... I'm glad I found this group to learn contract law...
> 
> It seems the owners simply want their money due and renters just want their reservation.  I'm not sure we should presume a pandemic would occur again, but we also aren't out of this one.  As the number of deaths seems to be constantly increasing, I'm less convinced I'd be wanting to go to Disney any time again soon... I'm not even convinced there will for sure be a vaccine.
> 
> The biggest question is my mind is how dvc acts to make owners whole.  I'm not for screwing over the owner, I'm not for owner double dipping, and I'm not for David double dipping.
> 
> Ideally same owner and renter rebooking... Guess that means points not expiring.  Maybe those need different price and contract



DVC is a timeshare which means they don’t have to make us whole, but rather make sure the system works moving forward,  Some of what they have done was nice and has helped owners, but  it wasn’t done with that as it’s main focus,

What many DVC owners are now learning is that booking reservations in the last 4 months of your UY is even more risky than one ever imagined because things can happen outside ones control.


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> DVC is a timeshare which means they don’t have to make us whole, but rather make sure the system works moving forward,  Some of what they have done was nice and has helped owners, but  it wasn’t done with that as it’s main focus,
> 
> What many DVC owners are now learning is that booking reservations in the last 4 months of your UY is even more risky than one ever imagined because things can happen outside ones control.



My point was more no one wants to lose out... Owners don't want to have to refund, renters don't want to lose all their money outside contract terms (old contract), and David's isn't really working for free so.... My point was if dvc extends life might resolve the conundrum...


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> My point was more no one wants to lose out... Owners don't want to have to refund, renters don't want to lose all their money outside contract terms (old contract), and David's isn't really working for free so.... My point was if dvc extends life might resolve the conundrum...



True, but only some points are being extended, not all...and only ones that apply to the closure for expiring during it,

So, yes, no one wants to lose in this situation, but even DVC cant necessarily help owners who can’t use points even if extended.

This entire situation has shown a big weakness in the brokers set up.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Sandisw said:


> True, but only some points are being extended, not all...and only ones that apply to the closure for expiring during it,
> 
> So, yes, no one wants to lose in this situation, but even DVC cant necessarily help owners who can’t use points even if extended.
> 
> This entire situation has shown a big weakness in the brokers set up.


Yes. I have an Aug UY and I have points that may be effected (610) so, I don't know yet what will happen if resorts aren't open in June & July


----------



## Bowen Family

cmrdgrs said:


> So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess.  For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see?  What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?
> 
> And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?
> 
> I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?



I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW. 

In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment *if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points. *

Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member *if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.*

Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.

Not saying I know exactly what that looks like.  But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting. 

And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Maybe this is controversial but here goes. 

Davids tend to think that his contract does not apply to him. At least not if it cost him money. Current owners are not getting their 30% even though they should. 

Even if a new owner "accepts" davids contract terms and give davids his points to rent and then we have a new pandemic, then Davids assume that owners will issue a refund. If owners wont, what will Davids do? We have already clarified that taking davids or an owner to court over $1,000 - $2,000 is not worth it. 

I know that going forward you couldn't use Davids again but the owners that Davids have screwed now, most likely wont work with him again too.

Just saying if Davids dont play by the rules why should everyone else?


----------



## McCrae

Bowen Family said:


> I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.
> 
> In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment *if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points. *
> 
> Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member *if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.*
> 
> Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.
> 
> Not saying I know exactly what that looks like.  But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.
> 
> And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.


 As an owner this wouldn’t work for me. I want a simple easy transaction without any complications.  I want all sales to be final and would only agree to provide a refund if I was directly responsible for a reservation being cancelled. I would like to have the ability but not the obligation to amend/reschedule reservations in the event of a resort closing.

I would expect a better drafted contract for the renter making it clear that under no circumstances would refunds be available.  The discounted price obtained through renting is a reflection of the risks involved for the renter.


----------



## Cyberc1978

a question for renters.

It seems that Florida state are working on re-opening, IF resorts are open but parks are not do you still wanna go? Even if parks are open would you feel safe enough to go?


----------



## Grnl706

Cyberc1978 said:


> a question for renters.
> 
> It seems that Florida state are working on re-opening, IF resorts are open but parks are not do you still wanna go? Even if parks are open would you feel safe enough to go?


I won't be going. My reservation is mid June. I've already booked a room directly with Disney for next year. I was flying, which I don't feel comfortable doing, and it is a 14 hour drive which j never intended to do. I wouldn't go that far for a resort stay only. If the parks are open, I think it would still be too altered for the trip we have to make.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Bowen Family said:


> I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.
> 
> In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment *if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points. *
> 
> Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member *if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.*
> 
> Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.
> 
> Not saying I know exactly what that looks like.  But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.
> 
> And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.


As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?

I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.


----------



## Bowen Family

yankeesfan123 said:


> As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?
> 
> I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.



Agreed! My suggestion is only meant to apply to future rentals, and not applicable to the current situation. Renters should be able to make informed decisions about the points they’re paying for. They may decide to go ahead with a riskier rental anyways, but at least it was with full knowledge.


----------



## Cyberc1978

yankeesfan123 said:


> As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?
> 
> I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.



Problem already start when you as a renter makes the reservation with David’s.

Say you want to travel 3/20-3/28-2021. That reservation can be made now and points for the reservation is all but distressed.
Furthermore an owner with an April UY can ensure the dates BUT the points expire 3/31-2021.

IMO renters want all the savings when staying onsite but they don’t want any of the risks. IMO that doesn’t add up.

if you don’t want any of the risks you shouldn’t have any of the savings.

Hopefully no owners in their right mind are gonna take all risks and then only getting paid pennies on the dollar which David’s are offering.


----------



## Bowen Family

McCrae said:


> As an owner this wouldn’t work for me. I want a simple easy transaction without any complications.  I want all sales to be final and would only agree to provide a refund if I was directly responsible for a reservation being cancelled. I would like to have the ability but not the obligation to amend/reschedule reservations in the event of a resort closing.
> 
> I would expect a better drafted contract for the renter making it clear that under no circumstances would refunds be available.  The discounted price obtained through renting is a reflection of the risks involved for the renter.



I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree. 

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop. 

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “_Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”_

Life just doesn’t work that way!


----------



## Donna M

Bowen Family said:


> Agreed! My suggestion is only meant to apply to future rentals, and not applicable to the current situation. Renters should be able to make informed decisions about the points they’re paying for. They may decide to go ahead with a riskier rental anyways, but at least it was with full knowledge.


I agree that renters need to understand what they are agreeing to, but I don't think it would be reasonable for renters to understand the whole "points expiring" thing, nor be expected to.  If I was renting, I would assume that the points are good, that all the contracts out there would be able to give me the reservation that I would need.  I would be thinking that renting points is similar to renting a hotel room with some differences, that the savings are worth it, or were worth it up till this fiasco.  All the ins and outs of banking, borrowing, and rule of four, or whatever it's called, can be confusing enough for the owners.

I am an owner and have mention David's to other DVC friends, though I haven't needed to use them myself.  After what has happened and the way the new contract reads, especially the section on having to cover more expensive accommodations if something happened, there's no way I would rent out points now, nor will I mention David's in any positive light.


----------



## lawboy2001

Bowen Family said:


> I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.
> 
> For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.
> 
> Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “_Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”_
> 
> Life just doesn’t work that way!



This whole comparison of the cost of booking rooms from Disney vs rent DVC points is invalid.  The rooms for cash from Disney are not generally DVC rooms.   Look up availability for DVC rooms on the Disney site for next fall or winter, and you'll see that not many have a realistic opportunity to book many DVC rooms for cash from Disney.   I.e. you want a one bedroom at VGF -- good luck!!!!  Boardwalk?  Same.   

If people want to stay in a DVC room with a full kitchen or even kitchenette, rather than a hotel room, there are 2 realistic options -- buy DVC or rent from an existing owner.  

This whole discussion started with someone saying "Renters want discounts from cash rates!" and off we went.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Bowen Family said:


> I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.
> 
> For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.
> 
> Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “_Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”_
> 
> Life just doesn’t work that way!


I agree to the extent that if you pay full Disney price you should have the same protection.

a stay at BWV either direct or through an owner is the same except for housekeeping and the cancellation policy.

Saving up to 50% does come with a risk. As before corona renting is not for everyone and that’s totally okay.

btw you can’t book ie BWV directly with Disney more than 11 months out. Disney need to follow the same set of rules as owners.


----------



## CraigInPA

yankeesfan123 said:


> As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?



I would posit that the vast majority of points offered for rent are banked points, followed by current year points where the Owner wants to go somewhere else. In a direct renter-owner contract, the owner could state the expiration of the points and allow the renter to decide whether to book a no-refund reservation.

When I rented points directly, I was completely up front with the renter that the points (all of which were banked points) expired on November 30, and I would be willing to re-schedule his trip if he found it necessary to change it from the original May date. As it was, he did end up needing to change it, and I successfully moved it to October. It was understood, by contract, that the contract was non-refundable for any reason.

When you rent from a broker, who masks the details of the transaction from you, you rightly assume that the broker is working in both your and the owner's interest to mitigate risk. As we've seen, David's did not even consider resort closure in his contract, despite the fact that resort closures had occurred in the past due to hurricanes.

It seems that the future business model may be to rent points based upon when they expire. For example, if you want an October 2021 reservation at BLT and it's November 2020, you need to rent BLT points. In matching you to owners, you have a choice of taking banked points expiring in November at $18/point, current year (1) points expiring in April 2022 for $22/point, or current year refundable (2) points expiring in April 2022 for $24/point. The current year (1) and current year refundable (2) points could have change privileges, allowing a reservation up to their expiration date. The current year refundable (2) would have the ability to get a refund up to 3 months before the expiration of the points (i.e., when they can still be banked) less a service fee of $2 per point. Current year (1) and banked points would have no refund for any reason whatsoever.


----------



## MIDisFan

Bowen Family said:


> I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.
> 
> For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is* less valuable* than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, *the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply*, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.
> 
> Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “_Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”_
> 
> Life just doesn’t work that way!



Odd that something less valuable would be in such high demand. The problem is that when you agreed to use a broker and signed the contract, as a renter, you took on all the risk. Fair or not, those were the agreed upon terms. If brokers start demanding owners be flexible to make changes or refunds, they will find an even greater shortage of points to rent.   Moving forward, the brokers are changing the terms to at best offer you a credit in the event of a resort closure beyond control of any party. What difference would it make if the owners points were distressed or not to the renter.


----------



## McCrae

Bowen Family said:


> I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.
> 
> For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.
> 
> Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “_Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”_
> 
> Life just doesn’t work that way!



Renters like owners have a choice. If they don't like the contract terms walk away.

David's contracts with renters did not make it clear enough what the risks were. If they had he wouldn't be facing the problems he now does.


----------



## Bowen Family

McCrae said:


> Renters like owners have a choice. If they don't like the contract terms walk away.
> 
> The problem with David's contracts with renters is that the risks were not clearly spelt out.



Agreed on all points! And I am definitely walking away.


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

McCrae said:


> Renters like owners have a choice. If they don't like the contract terms walk away.


Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone on either side of the transaction can use David's and feel their interests are protected.  Even if best case scenario of June 1st happens there are decent odds another flare up could cause a second closure.  I just can't see how renter's savings or owner's revenue is worth the risks currently involved.


----------



## disneypharm

McCrae said:


> As an owner this wouldn’t work for me. I want a simple easy transaction without any complications.  I want all sales to be final and would only agree to provide a refund if I was directly responsible for a reservation being cancelled. I would like to have the ability but not the obligation to amend/reschedule reservations in the event of a resort closing.
> 
> *I would expect a better drafted contract for the renter making it clear that under no circumstances would refunds be available. * The discounted price obtained through renting is a reflection of the risks involved for the renter.


Really?  He has already created a new contract (see one of the terms below) that clearly states that the accommodation is non-refundable in the event of another closure.  So, what else do you need?    Right now, most renters are stuck and will be taking a voucher and sign a new contract, hoping to get something out of this mess.  However, as I have said before, I don't understand why any renter in their right mind will be willing to sign a new contract that does not guarantee any accommodation!!

It is like sellers online trying to sell you something, you pay them, but they will not guarantee you a product!!  LOL!!

"In the event of  a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted." 
"


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bowen Family said:


> I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.
> 
> In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment *if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points. *
> 
> Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member *if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.*
> 
> Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.
> 
> Not saying I know exactly what that looks like.  But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.
> 
> And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.


How could this be implemented?  Since David knows the status of points should renters get a discount on banked or soon to expire points matched to a more stringent no refunds policy?


----------



## Amymouse13

I'm pretty sure most renters myself included interpreted no refunds to pertain to any reason I needed to cancel or reschedule not limited to family illness, jobs, etc... Clearly not that our reservation could be cancelled by another to no fault of ours and be due nothing... Actually appeared to acknowledge that by saying if owner cancelled we received refund.


----------



## McCrae

disneypharm said:


> Really?  He has already created a new contract (see one of the terms below) that clearly states that the accommodation is non-refundable in the event of another closure.  So, what else do you need?    Right now, most renters are stuck and will be taking a voucher and sign a new contract, hoping to get something out of this mess.  However, as I have said before, I don't understand why any renter in their right mind will be willing to sign a new contract that does not guarantee any accommodation!!
> 
> It is like sellers online trying to sell you something, you pay them, but they will not guarantee you a product!!  LOL!!
> 
> "In the event of  a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
> "





disneypharm said:


> Really?  He has already created a new contract (see one of the terms below) that clearly states that the accommodation is non-refundable in the event of another closure.  So, what else do you need?    Right now, most renters are stuck and will be taking a voucher and sign a new contract, hoping to get something out of this mess.  However, as I have said before, I don't understand why any renter in their right mind will be willing to sign a new contract that does not guarantee any accommodation!!
> 
> It is like sellers online trying to sell you something, you pay them, but they will not guarantee you a product!!  LOL!!
> 
> "In the event of  a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
> "



The idea of non refundable bookings is not unique or a new idea. It's common practice in the field sports industry where the weather can force cancellations.

No one is forced to accept this clause and as long as the renters understand and accept what risks they are taking on , its not a problem. 

David's current contract makes it clear that an owner would be required to refund a renter.  The conditions are clear.  As an owner it's up to me to decide if I want to accept this or not.


----------



## McCrae

chicagodisneyguy said:


> Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone on either side of the transaction can use David's and feel their interests are protected.  Even if best case scenario of June 1st happens there are decent odds another flare up could cause a second closure.  I just can't see how renter's savings or owner's revenue is worth the risks currently involved.



I agree.


----------



## McCrae

Bowen Family said:


> I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.
> 
> For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.
> 
> Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “_Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”_
> 
> Life just doesn’t work that way!



What made you decide to rent points?


----------



## Dracula

Amymouse13 said:


> I'm pretty sure most renters myself included interpreted no refunds to pertain to any reason I needed to cancel or reschedule not limited to family illness, jobs, etc... Clearly not that our reservation could be cancelled by another to no fault of ours and be due nothing... Actually appeared to acknowledge that by saying if owner cancelled we received refund.


David surely knows how to put the "fun" in "no refunds". Disney fans would appreciate


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?
> 
> I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.



I think if the renter is getting a significant savings then they have to decide if it’s worth the risk of renting,

As an owner, I wouldn’t rent through a broker with having to return fund, regardless of point status because getting points back that I can’t use...which is why i rented in the first place...doesn’t do me any good.  I’d be forced to get into another contract,

Having said that, I think it needs to be clear to renters the options and what happens and then they get to make an informed choice,

Now, if I was renting privately, then my deal with a renter, if a resort closed, would be to refund them a set dollar amount..$5... for a cancelation.  Some might be okay with it and some will not,

Id be willing to make minor changes as long as they were far enough away and within the expiration of the points since I’d be collecting 100% at time of original booking


----------



## Bowen Family

McCrae said:


> What made you decide to rent points?



Fair question. 

1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.

2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.      

Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?


----------



## CraigInPA

@Bowen Family  I was like you. After extensive research, I wanted to try various DVC resorts to see which one was our future "home". I had previously stayed at Poly (like 15 times!), but never at my other two choices: BCV and BLT. So, I rented some points. I stayed at BCV at the end of food and wine, and BLT at the beginning of flower and garden. I'm really glad I did, because both my wife and I both decided that BLT was perfect for us.

When we purchased our first resale contract, it came completely loaded. We banked the current year points. Because we had planned to go somewhere other than WDW the next year, we suddenly had 320 points we needed to get rid of inside 18 months. We decided to rent them through David's, and had a good experience with that. Later, when we bought an add-on that also came loaded, we had another 60 points we needed to use or lose. Those we rented ourselves through disboards. It was an easy process once we had someone who was realistic about availability and how many points were needed for his desired stay. Since then, we've added on again, but banked the points and then used them the next year. 

So, in answer to your question as to what made me decide to rent points, it was simply because we (or anyone in the family) had no use for them before they expired.


----------



## Madame

Bowen Family said:


> Fair question.
> 
> 1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.
> 
> 2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.
> 
> Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?


Your response here makes it look like you didn’t strike first.  You did.  How about we focus on the broker, to whom all of us « paid » (owners losing potential $ & that $ going to the broker is exactly like owners paying for their services),  and whose contract seems to protect no one.


----------



## McCrae

Bowen Family said:


> Fair question.
> 
> 1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.
> 
> 2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.
> 
> Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?



I had some available, choice either bank them or rent. Decided to rent. It was an easy process.


----------



## MIDisFan

Bowen Family said:


> Fair question.
> 
> 1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.
> 
> 2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.
> 
> Now your turn. *What made you decide to rent out your points?*



Not to speak for someone else, but for me, simple---surplus of points. It's been years since i've rented points through a broker. If I recall correctly, the contract always seemed to favor the broker and the owner. Reservations were non refundable for any reason short of the owner not honoring the reservation. The reason most choose to go through a broker rather than a private party is for the false sense of security the brokers push acting as an escrow service. The reality is, they seem to be doing far less for their customers than a private owner is willing to. At a premium, I might add.

The situation is horrible for renters and owners. It's not fair to blame either when that falls entirely on the brokers imho


----------



## cmrdgrs

chicagodisneyguy said:


> Honestly at this point_* I don't know how anyone on either side of the transaction*_ can use David's and *feel their interests are protected*.  Even if best case scenario of June 1st happens there are decent odds another flare up could cause a second closure.  I just can't see how renter's savings or owner's revenue is worth the risks currently involved.


To me, I guess this is really where the miscommunication is, brokers *don't* have anyone's best interests in mind.  They are a business and exist to make money and have there own best interest in mind, and are trying to figure out how to make the maximum amount of money and pay owners the least amount of money.

I'm not saying that brokers don't want to provide a service that had perceived value and [up till now] seemed to make people happy -- Some owners clearly don't want to deal with renters directly.  These owners seem to want some level of anonymity, and they didn't want to have to find renters interested in using their points.  What I find interesting is that the owners still provided all the same "services" they would have to provide for the renter, as if they rented their points privately.  So the owners are doing the same amount of work.  All the high paid broker did was play the role of a high paid match maker.

Renters had a perceived feeling of being "safe" and that their vacation money was safe by using the broker instead of booking directly with an owner.  Renters are willing to accept a non-refundable discounted DVC vacation if the cancellation is their fault.  The thought that Disney & DVCM would close resorts leaving owners and renters hanging never entered into anyone's consciousness.

As we have seen from this scenario a point isn't a point when there is a problem. This fact has shown the flaw in the broker model.  Aside from "premium" resorts that are hard to book or have high demand, flexibility to accommodate a change in the event of a force majeure has real value to the broker.

It seems like the biggest issue that I've seen were everyone takes issue is that brokers are not willing to take any type of loss on their very high commission in this situation ($4.50pp = 22.5% profit on each transaction).

And what do owners and renters get for the 22.5% profit the broker took in the transaction?  Not a whole lot we have come to find out.

Maybe the outcome of this is that brokers will be less popular?  Maybe "classified" ads for DVC rentals will become more popular?

Can someone else enter the market with a broker model mousetrap?  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


----------



## Cloudy

Amymouse13 said:


> I'm pretty sure most renters myself included interpreted no refunds to pertain to any reason I needed to cancel or reschedule not limited to family illness, jobs, etc... Clearly not that our reservation could be cancelled by another to no fault of ours and be due nothing... Actually appeared to acknowledge that by saying if owner cancelled we received refund.



This would be an interesting poll.  I am a renter, although not through David's.  I had a one week rental at WBC through Redweek (May 8th) and a 2 month rental (April and May) at a privately owned condo in Clearwater.  I booked a no cancellation reservation.  I interpreted this to mean no refunds for any reason: illness, lost job, hurricane, or now pandemic.  The only reason I would expect a refund is if the owner cancelled as either fraud or an elective reason on their end (they had an illness and now needed the condo).  

For full disclosure, in the end, the owner of the Redweek rental gave me a full refund after a request by Redweek not initiated by me (WBC closed during our dates).  For the Clearwater rental, we have agreed with the owner to split the loss 50/50 (we were prepared to go but the Condo Association is not allowing renters).


----------



## cmrdgrs

Cloudy said:


> This would be an interesting poll.  I am a renter, although not through David's.  I had a one week rental at WBC through Redweek (May 8th) and a 2 month rental (April and May) at a privately owned condo in Clearwater.  I booked a no cancellation reservation.  I interpreted this to mean no refunds for any reason: illness, lost job, hurricane, or now pandemic.  The only reason I would expect a refund is if the owner cancelled as either fraud or an elective reason on their end (they had an illness and now needed the condo).
> 
> For full disclosure, in the end, the owner of the Redweek rental gave me a full refund after a request by Redweek not initiated by me (WBC closed during our dates).  For the Clearwater rental, we have agreed with the owner to split the loss 50/50 (we were prepared to go but the Condo Association is not allowing renters).


The biggest problem I see is that the closure is due to a party not even represented or involved in the agreement.  In your rental case, in Clearwater, the the Condo Association has made the decision to not allow renters and the owner of the condo has no say in the matter.  In the case of Disney, Disney made the decision to close, and DVCM on my behalf as an owner made the decision to close the resort.  As an owner, I had no say in the matter.

Brokers pay one price to owners for their points because that model is simply and easy to understand.  What if brokers shifted and paid more money to owners for bankable/current UY points and less money for banked points or when a reservation is made in the last 4 months of the owners UY?  Obviously, the same would be true for renters they pay more for bankable/current UY points and less for reservations made on banked points or in the last four months of an owners UY?

Honestly, this is what I do on personal level when I rent.  I never book a rental in the last 4 months of my UY and I try to book rentals early in my UY to give me maximum flexibility.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

As an owner, one thing this has taught me:  If I do rent out my points, I am renting out specific points that can be used for a reservation and not necessarily a specific reservation.  Renting those specific points may be conditioned on initially acquiring a specific reservation...but you are buying the points, and not the reservation those points are backing.

i.e. you get "X number of Feb 2020 use year points, that can be used for a reservation between now and Jan 31, 2021.  If you contact me 2 weeks before the banking deadline, i'll bank them in to be able to be used for a reservation from Feb 1, 2021 to Jan 31, 2022.  Your reservation at ABC Resort for X sized room for Y-Z dates is already booked.  You can have one courtesy rebooking, subject to availability.  Additional rebookings cost $20 each, subject to availability.  No changes within 45 days of check in, Points not used before they expire are forfeit and no refunds will be provided"  Something like that.  At this point, I would also be sure to include a resort closure clause, where i'll do a free rebook if the resort is closed through no fault of the owner or renter...subject to points usage restrictions previously established...giving the renter the same flexibility that DVC gives me to use those points...banking deadlines, waived holding, extended usage, etc...again, all subject to availability.

From an owners perspective, the purpose of rentals is that I have points that I either can't use or don't want to use.  For renters, the purpose of rentals is discounted rooms at Disney Resorts, but there is some aspect of "you get what you pay for"...if you want full flexibility, return policy, refunds, daily housekeeping, etc. then you have to pay full retail.  Those privileges are built in to the price of those accommodations.   

We as owners took that same bargain of "you get what you pay for"...We get these rooms at a significant discount, while also accepting significant limitations.  From my perspective, if renters want to participate in that system, then they should also be taking on the risks/limitations of that system.  Caveat Emptor...buyers should be responsible for knowing what they are buying before hand.  Unless an owner misleads a renter about what they are buying, then it is up to the renter to know what they are buying into and it's limitations.  Renters aren't buying a hotel room.  They are buying one-time-usage of a timeshare.


----------



## cmrdgrs

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> As an owner, one thing this has taught me:  If I do rent out my points, I am renting out specific points that can be used for a reservation and not necessarily a specific reservation.  Renting those specific points may be conditioned on initially acquiring a specific reservation...but you are buying the points, and not the reservation those points are backing.
> 
> i.e. you get "X number of Feb 2020 use year points, that can be used for a reservation between now and Jan 31, 2021.  If you contact me 2 weeks before the banking deadline, i'll bank them in to be able to be used for a reservation from Feb 1, 2021 to Jan 31, 2022.  Your reservation at ABC Resort for X sized room for Y-Z dates is already booked.  You can have one courtesy rebooking, subject to availability.  Additional rebookings cost $20 each, subject to availability.  No changes within 45 days of check in, Points not used before they expire are forfeit and no refunds will be provided"  Something like that.  At this point, I would also be sure to include a resort closure clause, where i'll do a free rebook if the resort is closed through no fault of the owner or renter...subject to points usage restrictions previously established...giving the renter the same flexibility that DVC gives me to use those points...banking deadlines, waived holding, extended usage, etc...again, all subject to availability.
> 
> From an owners perspective, the purpose of rentals is that I have points that I either can't use or don't want to use.  For renters, the purpose of rentals is discounted rooms at Disney Resorts, but there is some aspect of "you get what you pay for"...if you want full flexibility, return policy, refunds, daily housekeeping, etc. then you have to pay full retail.  Those privileges are built in to the price of those accommodations.
> 
> _We as owners took that same bargain of "you get what you pay for"...We get these rooms at a significant discount, while also accepting significant limitations.  From my perspective, if renters want to participate in that system, then they should also be taking on the risks/limitations of that system.  Caveat Emptor...buyers should be responsible for knowing what they are buying before hand.  Unless an owner misleads a renter about what they are buying, then it is up to the renter to know what they are buying into and it's limitations.  Renters aren't buying a hotel room.  They are buying one-time-usage of a timeshare._


This is really well said IMO -- given the mess of the closures.  I can't speak for others, but I do think it is fair for an owner to offer a workaround to the renter under the same restrictions Disney gives me the owner to work under in the case of a force majeure causing the DVC resort to close.  But, then the price for points shouldn't be equal in my mind for a renter.

Take this situation.  All renters paid the same price for reservation in the 7 month window.  But, in this situation with the closure, all renters did not get the same result given what type of points they unknowingly rented (banked/current UY/borrowed).  I guess the broker is trying to make up for that shortfall with the travel vouchers, but the travel vouchers don't seem to be making owners or renters happy, so dealing with this on the back end of the deal, instead of the front end of the deal seems to be backfiring for brokers.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

cmrdgrs said:


> This is really well said IMO -- given the mess of the closures.  I can't speak for others, but I do think it is fair for an owner to offer a workaround to the renter under the same restrictions Disney gives me the owner to work under in the case of a force majeure causing the DVC resort to close.  But, then the price for points shouldn't be equal in my mind for a renter.
> 
> Take this situation.  All renters paid the same price for reservation in the 7 month window.  But, in this situation with the closure, all renters did not get the same result given what type of points they unknowingly rented (banked/current UY/borrowed).  I guess the broker is trying to make up for that shortfall with the travel vouchers, but the travel vouchers don't seem to be making owners or renters happy, so dealing with this on the back end of the deal, instead of the front end of the deal seems to be backfiring for brokers.


Yes, and that is one of the downsides of the broker model for DVC rental.  They hide the messy details from the renter.  When a broker books a reservation there could be any number of owners that they can pull from, and as a renter, you could end up with points of a WIDE variety of status...current year...borrowed...banked...and any one of the use year months....you simply don't know. 

I know why brokers try to hide those details from renters...because it would simply cause confusion and apprehension for the renter that is, in most cases, not necessary for them to be confused about.  Brokers SHOULD be matching up owners and renters well...not matching up desired dates with travel in the last 4-months of the use year...paying more for current use-year points...etc...

By removing the broker from the equation, the renter can be much more informed about what they end up with.  And, from what we've seen, most renters and owners have been perfectly willing to rebook, compromise, etc. to make everyone happy.  It's really been the brokers getting in the way...either because they don't want to give up the relationship to the renter or they are just unwilling to spend the time necessary to make it happen correctly.


----------



## Amymouse13

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> Yes, and that is one of the downsides of the broker model for DVC rental.  They hide the messy details from the renter.  When a broker books a reservation there could be any number of owners that they can pull from, and as a renter, you could end up with points of a WIDE variety of status...current year...borrowed...banked...and any one of the use year months....you simply don't know.
> 
> I know why brokers try to hide those details from renters...because it would simply cause confusion and apprehension for the renter that is, in most cases, not necessary for them to be confused about.  Brokers SHOULD be matching up owners and renters well...not matching up desired dates with travel in the last 4-months of the use year...paying more for current use-year points...etc...
> 
> By removing the broker from the equation, the renter can be much more informed about what they end up with.  And, from what we've seen, most renters and owners have been perfectly willing to rebook, compromise, etc. to make everyone happy.  It's really been the brokers getting in the way...either because they don't want to give up the relationship to the renter or they are just unwilling to spend the time necessary to make it happen correctly.



Brokers or only David


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## cmrdgrs

Amymouse13 said:


> Brokers or only David


As far as I know, none of the brokers share the details/status of the points they rent.  We have several renters on this thread that didn't know anything about points or why certain points might have more value than others.  And all the brokers, as far as I can tell from what I've been reading here and on other boards, are issuing travel vouchers just like David.

ETA: The only time that I know of when David shares the status of points is when the points are "distressed" and he is having a "fire sale" for those types of rentals where he sends a flash email.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.

This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference.  As an owner, I am an owner.  I am not a renter.  I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort.  Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service.  We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.

When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make.  They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do.  If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job.  FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.

When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract.  If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void.  The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging.  I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.

Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf.  In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves.  As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did.  We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own.   We are the owners.  We are the ones who hired DVCM.  Our representative was the one who made that decision.  We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract.  The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs.  We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.

For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk.  The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back.  That is the risk they took by getting the "deal".  They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing.  If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.


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## disneykins

We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
flame away, lol


----------



## CanadaDisney05

disneykins said:


> We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
> We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
> flame away, lol



We'll see how this all shakes out, but for me, I'd rather take my chances with David's who is located in Canada, than having to apply for an ITIN, and file a US tax return.


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## Dracula

disneykins said:


> We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
> We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
> flame away, lol


Hoping for the best only works until the unimaginable happens. Assume your reservation in the fall is canceled, and your friendly neighbourhood David asks you to refund the 70%. You do it because everything worked well in the past. Now if you were to have points to rent again, would you still rent through David?


----------



## disneykins

Dracula said:


> Hoping for the best only works until the unimaginable happens. Assume your reservation in the fall is canceled, and your friendly neighbourhood David asks you to refund the 70%. You do it because everything worked well in the past. Now if you were to have points to rent again, would you still rent through David?


Not sure what I'd do. I'm not going to worry about it until it happens. If the renter asked to cancel now, I'd say no, I have a contract and I'm confident Disney resorts will be open in the fall. And they made this reservation in early April. If the resorts are still closed (or closed due to a new outbreak of something) I would deal with that at the time. And I'm sure that would be a small worry for me in the grand scheme of things, people dying, businesses crashing, unemployment, etc.


----------



## cmrdgrs

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.
> 
> This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference.  As an owner, I am an owner.  I am not a renter.  I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort.  Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service.  We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.
> 
> When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make.  They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do.  If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job.  FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.
> 
> When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract.  If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void.  The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging.  I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.
> 
> Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf.  In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves.  As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did.  We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own.   We are the owners.  We are the ones who hired DVCM.  Our representative was the one who made that decision.  We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract.  The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs.  We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.
> 
> For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk.  The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back.  That is the risk they took by getting the "deal".  They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing.  If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.


I agree with you CanadaDisney05 -- Although DVC Owners didn't have a "say" in the resorts closing, we do pay DVCM to make these decisions for us and this is the decision they made.  For the owner, this was a risk that might not have been anticipated when they made the decision to rent their points, but it happened -- so now what?

For me, I just think the idea of all points being equal just doesn't work in the broker model.  This whole situation with the resorts being shut down may happen again.  For that reason, if I was a renter, I would only be willing to book if an owner was willing to fully refund me in the event of a resort closure.  If an owner doesn't want to do that I think I would just book direct with Disney.


----------



## cmrdgrs

One more thing to throw out there -- If a DVC Member had purchased Travelex, those DVC members I know that put in a claim against Travelex (or tried to) were denied their claim because of RCI being an option for "saving" their points.  Travelex did not pay out either in this situation.

Those that got paid their 70% from David that amount wasn't a whole lot more than what Travelex might have paid them had they paid on the claim.


----------



## Dracula

cmrdgrs said:


> One more thing to throw out there -- If a DVC Member had purchased Travelex, those DVC members I know that put in a claim against Travelex (or tried to) were denied their claim because of RCI being an option for "saving" their points.  Travelex did not pay out either in this situation.
> 
> Those that got paid their 70% from David that amount wasn't a whole lot more than what Travelex might have paid them had they paid on the claim.


Travelex for DVC owners is not a CFAR insurance, and resort closure due to pandemic is not one of the reasons covered. Unlike David, however, Travelex would reimburse additional travel expenses associated with the trip, like non-refundable airfare.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Travelex for DVC owners is not a CFAR insurance, and resort closure due to pandemic is not one of the reasons covered. Unlike David, however, Travelex would reimburse additional travel expenses associated with the trip, like non-refundable airfare.


I understand that Travelex is not = to Cancel for Any Reason Insurance.  The person I know that submitted the claim was not denied the claim on the pandemic as not being a covered reason for coverage.  They were denied the claim because they had the ability to move the points into RCI and therefore they did not lose their points.

All I was saying was that when David pays out 70% of the agreed upon price in their contract that the amount he is paying = more than the price per point that Travelex would pay on those same points.  I wasn't looking at lost airfare or anything else.


----------



## Bowen Family

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.
> 
> This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference.  As an owner, I am an owner.  I am not a renter.  I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort.  Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service.  We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.
> 
> When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make.  They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do.  If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job.  FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.
> 
> When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract.  If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void.  The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging.  I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.
> 
> Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf.  In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves.  As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did.  We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own.   We are the owners.  We are the ones who hired DVCM.  Our representative was the one who made that decision.  We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract.  The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs.  We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.
> 
> For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk.  The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back.  That is the risk they took by getting the "deal".  They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing.  If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.



Now that is a refreshing take! But I think you may have just got yourself uninvited from the DVC member christmas party.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Bowen Family said:


> Now that is a refreshing take! But I think you may have just got yourself uninvited from the DVC member christmas party.


But.... this is why [some] private owners who rent have 100% reimbursed renters.

It's the middleman broker situation that is changing the dynamic of what owners will do and the limitations brokers are placing on owners for what they would like to do which is gumming up the works.


----------



## cm8

cmrdgrs said:


> But.... this is why [some] private owners who rent have 100% reimbursed renters.
> 
> It's the middleman broker situation that is changing the dynamic of what owners will do and the limitations brokers are placing on owners for what they would like to do which is gumming up the works.


Exactly


----------



## cmrdgrs

disneykins said:


> We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
> We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
> flame away, lol


I'm sorry to read that you think you will be "flamed."  I don't really think anyone is interested in flaming anyone else.  Heated discussion -- yes, I think when people are losing money (as renters) or losing points (as owners) they can get, shall we say, passionate....

If you're happy with David, I'd say keep using him.

IMPO, I think you are foolish to hand over to a broker 22.5% of the "profit" you could put in your own pocket -- simply to be a matchmaker for you.  You could use this 22.5% to pay even more towards your MFs or more towards your cruises, but they are your points, if you are happy with David and his services, why change anything?


----------



## lovethesun12

CraigInPA said:


> @Bowen Family  I was like you. After extensive research, I wanted to try various DVC resorts to see which one was our future "home". I had previously stayed at Poly (like 15 times!), but never at my other two choices: BCV and BLT. So, I rented some points. I stayed at BCV at the end of food and wine, and BLT at the beginning of flower and garden. I'm really glad I did, because both my wife and I both decided that BLT was perfect for us.
> 
> When we purchased our first resale contract, it came completely loaded. We banked the current year points. Because we had planned to go somewhere other than WDW the next year, we suddenly had 320 points we needed to get rid of inside 18 months. We decided to rent them through David's, and had a good experience with that. Later, when we bought an add-on that also came loaded, we had another 60 points we needed to use or lose. Those we rented ourselves through disboards. It was an easy process once we had someone who was realistic about availability and how many points were needed for his desired stay. Since then, we've added on again, but banked the points and then used them the next year.
> 
> So, in answer to your question as to what made me decide to rent points, it was simply because we (or anyone in the family) had no use for them before they expired.


So why not let them expire?


----------



## lovethesun12

Bowen Family said:


> Now that is a refreshing take! But I think you may have just got yourself uninvited from the DVC member christmas party.


Yes. The one where all the renters hand over 5-10k and the owners give them fresh air in return and wonder why the renters are feeling so "entitled".

ETA: Disclaimer: Yes I do realize some owners are trying to rebook and give refunds. This applies to the ones who think renters are entitled for wanting something for the thousands they spent while they are keeping their points and 70%.


----------



## CmdrThor

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> As an owner, one thing this has taught me:  If I do rent out my points, I am renting out specific points that can be used for a reservation and not necessarily a specific reservation.  Renting those specific points may be conditioned on initially acquiring a specific reservation...but you are buying the points, and not the reservation those points are backing.
> 
> i.e. you get "X number of Feb 2020 use year points, that can be used for a reservation between now and Jan 31, 2021.  If you contact me 2 weeks before the banking deadline, i'll bank them in to be able to be used for a reservation from Feb 1, 2021 to Jan 31, 2022.  Your reservation at ABC Resort for X sized room for Y-Z dates is already booked.  You can have one courtesy rebooking, subject to availability.  Additional rebookings cost $20 each, subject to availability.  No changes within 45 days of check in, Points not used before they expire are forfeit and no refunds will be provided"  Something like that.  At this point, I would also be sure to include a resort closure clause, where i'll do a free rebook if the resort is closed through no fault of the owner or renter...subject to points usage restrictions previously established...giving the renter the same flexibility that DVC gives me to use those points...banking deadlines, waived holding, extended usage, etc...again, all subject to availability..



i has the same thought initially. But as I thought about it more I think I am going to be up front that a resort closure equals a refund. I will also offer modifications for a small fee, but if I am charging a certain price for a confirmed reservation, part of that price is due to the fact that the reservation is desirable and difficult to get. They won’t get the same value rescheduling. Additionally, I am already seeing most renters looking for owners saying up front they want it in writing that they will get a refund if the resort is closed. It’s the right thing to do as an owner, and it is very rare. If it does happen, I will either attempt to re-rent, use the points on my own, or donate a reservation to a friend or family.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

CmdrThor said:


> i has the same thought initially. But as I thought about it more I think I am going to be up front that a resort closure equals a refund. I will also offer modifications for a small fee, but if I am charging a certain price for a confirmed reservation, part of that price is due to the fact that the reservation is desirable and difficult to get. They won’t get the same value rescheduling. Additionally, I am already seeing most renters looking for owners saying up front they want it in writing that they will get a refund if the resort is closed. It’s the right thing to do as an owner, and it is very rare. If it does happen, I will either attempt to re-rent, use the points on my own, or donate a reservation to a friend or family.


That is definitely very fair.  If that's something the rental market demanded from owners, then I would only ever likely rent current year points, and only for reservations that are not within my banking window.  But, I think at that point I would just forgo renting my points and either double up and stay in a 1 bedroom, go for a longer trip, or gift them to a family member.  I'd rather use the points when they are in their prime rather than have to try to figure out what to do with potentially distressed points.


----------



## CraigInPA

lovethesun12 said:


> So why not let them expire?



I paid the dues on those points. Do the math and you'll see that it was thousands of dollars that would have been wasted by not utilizing those points in some way.


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## CraigInPA

CmdrThor said:


> i has the same thought initially. But as I thought about it more I think I am going to be up front that a resort closure equals a refund. I will also offer modifications for a small fee, but if I am charging a certain price for a confirmed reservation, part of that price is due to the fact that the reservation is desirable and difficult to get. They won’t get the same value rescheduling. Additionally, I am already seeing most renters looking for owners saying up front they want it in writing that they will get a refund if the resort is closed. It’s the right thing to do as an owner, and it is very rare. If it does happen, I will either attempt to re-rent, use the points on my own, or donate a reservation to a friend or family.



I think the whole concept of refunding non-refundable reservations is crazy! 

Let the status of the points dictate what happens next. If the renter rented points (converted to a reservation) and the resort closes, they can still use the points for another reservation while those points are still valid. If they don't want to travel during those periods, or there is no availability, then the renter will take the full loss. Be up front with the renter as to when the points expire, and offer re-bookings (for a nominal fee) for convenience. If you want to be bold and daring, offer a 50% cash refund for any cancellation more than 31 days before check-in. There is absolutely no need to follow the broker's (broken) business model.


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## CanadaDisney05

CraigInPA said:


> I think the whole concept of refunding non-refundable reservations is crazy!
> 
> Let the status of the points dictate what happens next. *If the renter rented points (converted to a reservation) *and the resort closes, they can still use the points for another reservation while those points are still valid. If they don't want to travel during those periods, or there is no availability, then the renter will take the full loss. Be up front with the renter as to when the points expire, and offer re-bookings (for a nominal fee) for convenience. If you want to be bold and daring, offer a 50% cash refund for any cancellation more than 31 days before check-in. There is absolutely no need to follow the broker's (broken) business model.


See the bolded part.  I think this is the biggest grey area.  With the brokers it seems like it is clear that as a renter, you are renting the reservation, not points.  You never get access to the points.  You can't do what you want with them.  You can't go ahead and re-rent them out to a third party.  In a private transaction, it really depends what the the contract states.

With no contract, my personal thought would be:

1) if the owner is taking points and bookings reservation on behalf of the renter, they are renting a reservation.

2)  if the owner is transferring points into another owners account, then they are renting points.


----------



## CraigInPA

CanadaDisney05 said:


> See the bolded part.  I think this is the biggest grey area.  With the brokers it seems like it is clear that as a renter, you are renting the reservation, not points.  You never get access to the points.  You can't do what you want with them.  You can't go ahead and re-rent them out to a third party.  In a private transaction, it really depends what the the contract states.
> 
> With no contract, my personal thought would be:
> 
> 1) if the owner is taking points and bookings reservation on behalf of the renter, they are renting a reservation.
> 
> 2)  if the owner is transferring points into another owners account, then they are renting points.



The brokers have created a model where all points have the same value, whether they are banked or current year, or whether they are used for a reservation that is within or outside their banking window. This, as we see, is a broken model. Banked points with a fixed end date that cannot be extended are inherently less valuable than ones which can be banked. 

The owner maintains the points, and converts those points into a reservation. The renter never gains access to the actual points. The points are reserved for the use of the renter by the owner, and the renter directs the owner what to "spend" those points on. The contract would dictate whether the points can be re-rented to a third party. I expect every contract to prohibit that.

One is required by the DVC POS to utilize a written contract when renting, but to address your other points:
1. Semantics. The contract specifies what the renter is renting. I doubt that anyone will be as stupid as David's and continue to rent "reservations" again.
2. Perhaps. Technically, transferred points cannot be sold.


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## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.
> 
> This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference.  As an owner, I am an owner.  I am not a renter.  I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort.  Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service.  We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.
> 
> When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make.  They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do.  If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job.  FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.
> 
> When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract.  If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void.  The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging.  I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.
> 
> Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf.  In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves.  As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did.  We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own.   We are the owners.  We are the ones who hired DVCM.  Our representative was the one who made that decision.  We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract.  The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs.  We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.
> 
> For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk.  The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back.  That is the risk they took by getting the "deal".  They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing.  If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.



I am a DVC owner as well but you have to realize that in reality we are all renters. We purchased a right to use DVC until 2054 for SSR. After that, who knows if they will offer an extension. While I like to believe *DVD* has our best interests in heart, it's not always the case. I don't think Disney shut down simply on our behalf. The state of Florida had a lot more input than members lol. I understand the point you are trying to make. This whole situation is new territory. The brokers were not prepared for something like this, but regardless, the burden to make it right should fall on their shoulders, not renters and owners. If an owner is trying to keep their points and the 70% initial payment, shame on them. Now that DVC has extended points there's no reason owners can't make new reservations. If you gave a Broker 200 points to rent, what difference does it make if he makes a new reservation with them. Yes, he's getting a second commission, but let him sleep with that.

I feel the brokers should have given renters the option for a refund, credit, or rebook. They should have went to owners and said, we are going to pay u the remaining 30%, but we own the rights to those points now and will take on the risk of the expiration of those points. At least one of the brokers showed their true colors a couple years back and I would never use one again. You would think a business that does really well, some say in the millions of profits a year, would take care of their customers. I believe that situation is still on the BBB website.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

CraigInPA said:


> The brokers have created a model where all points have the same value, whether they are banked or current year, or whether they are used for a reservation that is within or outside their banking window. This, as we see, is a broken model. Banked points with a fixed end date that cannot be extended are inherently less valuable than ones which can be banked.



I think this lends credence to the fact that the renter is renting a reservation, not the points themselves.  The renter is never given any indication of the type of points, restrictions on the points, risks to the points etc....  The renter requests a specific reservation, and the broker finds an owner that can make that reservation.  IMO, the renter is renting a reservation, not the points themselves..... and I'm saying this as an owner, not a renter.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> I am a DVC owner as well but you have to realize that in reality we are all renters. We purchased a right to use DVC until 2054 for SSR. After that, who knows if they will offer an extension. While I like to believe *DVD* has our best interests in heart, it's not always the case. I don't think Disney shut down simply on our behalf. The state of Florida had a lot more input than members lol. I understand the point you are trying to make. This whole situation is new territory. The brokers were not prepared for something like this, but regardless, the burden to make it right should fall on their shoulders, not renters and owners. If an owner is trying to keep their points and the 70% initial payment, shame on them. Now that DVC has extended points there's no reason owners can't make new reservations. If you gave a Broker 200 points to rent, what difference does it make if he makes a new reservation with them. Yes, he's getting a second commission, but let him sleep with that.
> 
> I feel the brokers should have given renters the option for a refund, credit, or rebook. They should have went to owners and said, we are going to pay u the remaining 30%, but we own the rights to those points now and will take on the risk of the expiration of those points. At least one of the brokers showed their true colors a couple years back and I would never use one again. You would think a business that does really well, some say in the millions of profits a year, would take care of their customers. I believe that situation is still on the BBB website.


Just to be clear, my post was not in support of the broker.  It was more about the general concept of where does the risk lie (owner/renter).

I'm not a Florida real estate lawyer, but from my understanding, the contract is more than a leasehold agreement.  This is not a landlord/renter situation (in terms of our contracts with Disney when we bought our DVC contracts as owners).  The membership as a whole has full ownership of the property until 2054 when it reverts back to Disney.  Until 2054, the entire risk falls on our shoulders.  We essentially own the resort until 2054.  At that point, we agreed to sell the resort back to Disney for zero compensation.


----------



## McCrae

MIDisFan said:


> I am a DVC owner as well but you have to realize that in reality we are all renters. We purchased a right to use DVC until 2054 for SSR. After that, who knows if they will offer an extension. While I like to believe *DVD* has our best interests in heart, it's not always the case. I don't think Disney shut down simply on our behalf. The state of Florida had a lot more input than members lol. I understand the point you are trying to make. This whole situation is new territory. The brokers were not prepared for something like this, but regardless, the burden to make it right should fall on their shoulders, not renters and owners. If an owner is trying to keep their points and the 70% initial payment, shame on them. Now that DVC has extended points there's no reason owners can't make new reservations. If you gave a Broker 200 points to rent, what difference does it make if he makes a new reservation with them. Yes, he's getting a second commission, but let him sleep with that.
> 
> I feel the brokers should have given renters the option for a refund, credit, or rebook. They should have went to owners and said, we are going to pay u the remaining 30%, but we own the rights to those points now and will take on the risk of the expiration of those points. At least one of the brokers showed their true colors a couple years back and I would never use one again. You would think a business that does really well, some say in the millions of profits a year, would take care of their customers. I believe that situation is still on the BBB website.



I agree with a lot of what you have written.

David's has however pushed the idea that owners contracts are with him and not individual renters. Legally this may or may not be the case. Potentially you could as an owner provided David's with points to re-rent and then find yourself with a claim from your original renter.  This makes me want to wait and see how things develop.

If charge backs are declined it will make me more confident to re-rent points.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Just to be clear, my post was not in support of the broker.  It was more about the general concept of where does the risk lie (owner/renter).
> 
> I'm not a Florida real estate lawyer, but from my understanding, the contract is more than a leasehold agreement.  *This is not a landlord/renter situation* (in terms of our contracts with Disney when we bought our DVC contracts as owners).  The membership as a whole has full ownership of the property until 2054 when it reverts back to Disney.  Until 2054, the entire risk falls on our shoulders.  We essentially own the resort until 2054.  At that point, we agreed to sell the resort back to Disney for zero compensation.



My comment was more to the reality of the situation as opposed to the legality of our ownership. Members don't own 100% of the points at any resort, don't have any say in the decisions effecting those resorts, nor do we have any rights to the property after the expiration of the contract. Seems more like a rental agreement, even though I still call myself a DVC owner. Sounds better lol.


----------



## McCrae

MIDisFan said:


> My comment was more to the reality of the situation as opposed to the legality of our ownership. Members don't own 100% of the points at any resort, don't have any say in the decisions effecting those resorts, nor do we have any rights to the property after the expiration of the contract. Seems more like a rental agreement, even though I still call myself a DVC owner. Sounds better lol.



You are correct, you have a maximum 50 year lease.


----------



## MIDisFan

McCrae said:


> I agree with a lot of what you have written.
> 
> David's has however pushed the idea that owners contracts are with him and not individual renters. Legally this may or may not be the case. Potentially you could as an owner provided David's with points to re-rent and then find yourself with a claim from your original renter.  This makes me want to wait and see how things develop.
> 
> If charge backs are declined it will make me more confident to re-rent points.



I think what the broker is saying is that they purchased your points and should be able to do with them what they want. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. If the original person files a charge back claim, that would be against the broker not the owner, so again I don't see what the owner has to loose by agreeing to re-book. The only contention could be the remaining 30%. If I were an owner in the same position, I would allow the broker to re-book under the stipulation that they would still pay the 30% if the points expired before they found a renter.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> My comment was more to the reality of the situation as opposed to the legality of our ownership. Members don't own 100% of the points at any resort, don't have any say in the decisions effecting those resorts, nor do we have any rights to the property after the expiration of the contract. Seems more like a rental agreement, even though I still call myself a DVC owner. Sounds better lol.


Think of it more like a condo rather than a freehold.  It's common ownership.  As a condo owner, you own 100% of your unit plus a portion of the common areas.  You hold 100% of the risk of your unit, but share the proportionate risk of the common areas.  Because it is unrealistic to have everyone agree on everything, and equally take part in decision making, condo owners collectively pay a management company to run the day to day and make decisions based on the best interest of the condo owners.  

When buying into the condo, you accept the fact that you are not going to be able to make decisions autonomously for the property that you own.  You are bound to a certain set of rules that could change at anytime by the management company.  In exchange, you are getting access to common areas, and sharing the operating costs and risks amongst the other owners.  When the elevator breaks in the condo, the owners don't go back to the builder and ask them to fix it because it's outside of their individual unit.  The owner's collectively pay for it through their condo fees.  If you want to have a bbq on your deck , but the agreed upon rules state you are not allowed to, you cannot just change the rules because you are an owner.  Depending on the specific condo association, you would need the owners collectively request that the rules be changed.

DVC is very similar.  I don't know the exact legalities, but I'm sure if enough owners made a formal protest that they didn't believe DVCM was acting faithfully in our best interest, we could have them removed and pay another management company to do the work.  But this would have to be a collective decision.  Not an individual decision.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

McCrae said:


> You are correct, you have a maximum 50 year lease.


I actually don't think this is true.  If the resort burns down and cannot be rebuilt, the owners get to collectively share the insurance proceeds. If this was a lease, we would get the "prepaid" portion of our original payment returned.  The property would also not be legally deeded to us.

My interpretation of what is actually happening is that we are buying the property, and have already agreed in the purchase agreement to resell the property back to Disney at the end of the 50 years for $0.00.  During the 50 years, we take on the full risk of ownership.


----------



## McCrae

MIDisFan said:


> I think what the broker is saying is that they purchased your points and should be able to do with them what they want. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. If the original person files a charge back claim, that would be against the broker not the owner, so again I don't see what the owner has to loose by agreeing to re-book. The only contention could be the remaining 30%. If I were an owner in the same position, I would allow the broker to re-book under the stipulation that they would still pay the 30% if the points expired before they found a renter.



If charge backs are successful, it would make it clear that David's no refunds clause is not legally enforceable. Not all renters will have paid by credit card and those  that haven't could have a case to pursue the owner.


----------



## lovethesun12

CraigInPA said:


> I paid the dues on those points. Do the math and you'll see that it was thousands of dollars that would have been wasted by not utilizing those points in some way.


The point. 

For the record, I haven't read through your specific posts on the topic; this is not meant to be argumentative at all. I'm just quoting this one in general to point out the obvious. 

A rental transaction is a mutually beneficial (usually) transaction between owners and renters.

It's completely ridiculous to try to argue anything else.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

McCrae said:


> If charge backs are successful, it would make it clear that David's no refunds clause is not legally enforceable. Not all renters will have paid by credit card and those  that haven't could have a case to pursue the owner.


Chargebacks are offered as a complimentary service by credit card companies for using their cards.  It is not a court order.  Also keep in mind, that law is governed by the jurisdiction.  David's operates in Ontario.  You would have to sue them in small claim's court in Ontario.


----------



## McCrae

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I actually don't think this is true.  If the resort burns down and cannot be rebuilt, the owners get to collectively share the insurance proceeds. If this was a lease, we would get the "prepaid" portion of our original payment returned.  The property would also not be legally deeded to us.
> 
> My interpretation of what is actually happening is that we are buying the property, and have already agreed in the purchase agreement to resell the property back to Disney at the end of the 50 years for $0.00.  During the 50 years, we take on the full risk of ownership.



I dont think you are correct about DVC members sharing an insurance payout. I believe any payment in these circumstances would come from Disney.  DVC rights are temporary and therefore it's a lease.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

McCrae said:


> I dont think you are correct about DVC members sharing an insurance payout. I believe any payment in these circumstances would come from Disney.  DVC rights are temporary and therefore it's a lease.


I could be mistaken.  That was not my understanding though.  Maybe someone else could chime in.


----------



## Dracula

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Chargebacks are offered as a complimentary service by credit card companies for using their cards.  It is not a court order.  Also keep in mind, that law is governed by the jurisdiction.  David's operates in Ontario.  You would have to sue them in small claim's court in Ontario.


Chargebacks are not exactly offered by the credit card companies out of their generosity. In the US there are laws for consumers protection that mandate credit card companies to keep consumers harmless in case of fraudulent card use, goods / services not delivered etc.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Think of it more like a condo rather than a freehold.  It's common ownership.  As a condo owner, you own 100% of your unit plus a portion of the common areas.  You hold 100% of the risk of your unit, but share the proportionate risk of the common areas.  Because it is unrealistic to have everyone agree on everything, and equally take part in decision making, condo owners collectively pay a management company to run the day to day and make decisions based on the best interest of the condo owners.
> 
> When buying into the condo, you accept the fact that you are not going to be able to make decisions autonomously for the property that you own.  You are bound to a certain set of rules that could change at anytime by the management company.  In exchange, you are getting access to common areas, and sharing the operating costs and risks amongst the other owners.  When the elevator breaks in the condo, the owners don't go back to the builder and ask them to fix it because it's outside of their individual unit.  The owner's collectively pay for it through their condo fees.  If you want to have a bbq on your deck , but the agreed upon rules state you are not allowed to, you cannot just change the rules because you are an owner.  Depending on the specific condo association, you would need the owners collectively request that the rules be changed.
> 
> DVC is very similar.  I don't know the exact legalities, but I'm sure if enough owners made a formal protest that they didn't believe DVCM was acting faithfully in our best interest, we could have them removed and pay another management company to do the work.  But this would have to be a collective decision.  Not an individual decision.



When you purchase a condo, you own it until you decide to sell it. Not when the HOA determines. That's how traditional timeshares work. DVC is a right to use. Doesn't matter to me either way. Whether i say i own points or an interest in points. Either way they are going  back to DVC in 2054


----------



## McCrae

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Chargebacks are offered as a complimentary service by credit card companies for using their cards.  It is not a court order.  Also keep in mind, that law is governed by the jurisdiction.  David's operates in Ontario.  You would have to sue them in small claim's court in Ontario.



This is not correct. Credit card companies don't do this to be nice. They have legal obligations which require them to payback their customers if a contracted service is not provided. When reviewing an application for a charge back they make a call on who is correct. if the losing party disagrees they can take the dispute to court.


----------



## CraigInPA

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I actually don't think this is true.  If the resort burns down and cannot be rebuilt, the owners get to collectively share the insurance proceeds. If this was a lease, we would get the "prepaid" portion of our original payment returned.  The property would also not be legally deeded to us.
> 
> My interpretation of what is actually happening is that we are buying the property, and have already agreed in the purchase agreement to resell the property back to Disney at the end of the 50 years for $0.00.  During the 50 years, we take on the full risk of ownership.



Incorrect. We have leased the land from Disney for 50 years. Our lease hold improvements (buildings, pools, landscaping, driveways, parking lots, etc...) revert to the land owner at the expiration of the lease. There is no agreement to sell anything back to Disney at the end. In addition, if the property becomes unusable (burns down or the state of Florida goes underwater), we as DVC members holding that lease would be the beneficiaries of any insurance settlement. In the event the lease hold improvements need to be removed (for example, if there is a fire), the cost of doing so falls on the DVC members holding the lease.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> When you purchase a condo, you own it until you decide to sell it. Not when the HOA determines. That's how traditional timeshares work. DVC is a right to use. Doesn't matter to me either way. Whether i say i own points or an interest in points. Either way they are going  back to DVC in 2054


I just pulled out the SSR Public Offering Statement to take a quick look.  Without reading the whole thing, it appears that we "own" the buildings, but "lease" the land.  The condo automatically terminates upon the expiration or termination of the ground lease.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

McCrae said:


> This is not correct. Credit card companies don't do this to be nice. They have legal obligations which require them to payback their customers if a contracted service is not provided. When reviewing an application for a charge back they make a call on who is correct. if the losing party disagrees they can take the dispute to court.





Dracula said:


> Chargebacks are not exactly offered by the credit card companies out of their generosity. In the US there are laws for consumers protection that mandate credit card companies to keep consumers harmless in case of fraudulent card use, goods / services not delivered etc.



I stand corrected.  But that is not really the point I was making.  The point was, that the chargeback is a service being offered (whether by choice or mandated by law) by the credit card companies.  It is not a court order and is not a decision made by a judge.  It is not a precedent that could be used in court which is what the poster I was replying to was suggesting.


----------



## CraigInPA

lovethesun12 said:


> The point.
> 
> For the record, I haven't read through your specific posts on the topic; this is not meant to be argumentative at all. I'm just quoting this one in general to point out the obvious.
> 
> A rental transaction is a mutually beneficial (usually) transaction between owners and renters.
> 
> It's completely ridiculous to try to argue anything else.



I was answering your specific question as to why I rented points. Yes, it is obvious that one rents points they wouldn't be able use in order to obtain funds that could be used. Frankly, I see no other motivation for owners to rent points.

On the reverse side of the equation, renters are renting either to get accommodations not offered by CRO, or to get a "deal". They accept that they don't get cancellation privileges like a CRO reservation, no daily housekeeping, and no "free dining" or other promotional offers. From the renters point of view, these trade offs are factored into the price they pay.

It's completely ridiculous to argue that renters should get something for which they have not paid, and which they expressly knew was a fundamental difference between a DVC rental and a CRO reservation.


----------



## Madame

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I think this lends credence to the fact that the renter is renting a reservation, not the points themselves.  The renter is never given any indication of the type of points, restrictions on the points, risks to the points etc....  The renter requests a specific reservation, and the broker finds an owner that can make that reservation.  IMO, the renter is renting a reservation, not the points themselves..... and I'm saying this as an owner, not a renter.


They might be renting a reservation from David’s, but David’s is renting points from the owner


----------



## CanadaDisney05

CraigInPA said:


> Incorrect. We have leased the land from Disney for 50 years. Our lease hold improvements (buildings, pools, landscaping, driveways, parking lots, etc...) revert to the land owner at the expiration of the lease. There is no agreement to sell anything back to Disney at the end. In addition, if the property becomes unusable (burns down or the state of Florida goes underwater), we as DVC members holding that lease would be the beneficiaries of any insurance settlement. In the event the lease hold improvements need to be removed (for example, if there is a fire), the cost of doing so falls on the DVC members holding the lease.


I mentioned the "lease" of the land in a subsequent post, but everything else you are suggesting is basically the same thing as I said.  It may not be a buy/sell transaction on paper, but it is essentially that.  We are leasing the land and building (owning) the buildings/amenities, and at the end of the ground lease, our ownership of the buildings and amenities transfers to Disney with no compensation.  During the ground lease, we own all the "leasehold improvements" and take on the full risk.  If the building burns down and it is decided not to be rebuilt, we are compensated through insurance proceeds, not a proportionate refund of our purchase by Disney.

Edit: To be clear, if we were leasing the buildings, we wouldn't be compensated through insurance proceeds.  Disney would be compensated through insurance proceeds, and we would be entitled to a prorated refund of our lease payment (the original buy in).


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Madame said:


> They might be renting a reservation from David’s, but David’s is renting points from the owner


That could be the case.  I've never been involved in a transaction with this particular company.  My point is that I don't think the renter should be liable here at all to absorb the losses from resort closure.  Whether the owner or David's absorbs the loss should be based on the contract between them.


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> I dont think you are correct about DVC members sharing an insurance payout. I believe any payment in these circumstances would come from Disney.  DVC rights are temporary and therefore it's a lease.



The POS is clear that if a resort is damaged and not repaired, all owners will be given their share of the insurance proceeds,

This may or may not be the same as what was paid,  Our lease with Disney is the ground lease...not the building.  We own that so any insurance payouts go to us.


----------



## lovethesun12

CraigInPA said:


> I was answering your specific question as to why I rented points. Yes, it is obvious that one rents points they wouldn't be able use in order to obtain funds that could be used. Frankly, I see no other motivation for owners to rent points.
> 
> On the reverse side of the equation, renters are renting either to get accommodations not offered by CRO, or to get a "deal". They accept that they don't get cancellation privileges like a CRO reservation, no daily housekeeping, and no "free dining" or other promotional offers. From the renters point of view, these trade offs are factored into the price they pay.
> 
> It's completely ridiculous to argue that renters should get something for which they have not paid, and which they expressly knew was a fundamental difference between a DVC rental and a CRO reservation.


The renter did pay for *something*  though.

If a person buys a bathing suit online, it’s non-refundable. The person who purchases must realize if it’s too large, too small, poor fit they are out of money.

But if the person who took the money wasn’t able to deliver the suit they have a responsibility to make it right. The understanding of the agreement was that a suit would be delivered.

They are not necessarily entitled to a refund. But you can’t just take money from people, deliver nothing and walk away. If that’s what a person wants to do they shouldn’t enter into agreements with others at all.


----------



## Madame

CanadaDisney05 said:


> That could be the case.  I've never been involved in a transaction with this particular company.  My point is that I don't think the renter should be liable here at all to absorb the losses from resort closure.  Whether the owner or David's absorbs the loss should be based on the contract between them.


Ok, but David’s is literally the topic of this thread.


----------



## MIDisFan

lovethesun12 said:


> The renter did pay for *something*  though.
> 
> If a person buys a bathing suit online, it’s non-refundable. The person who purchases must realize if it’s too large, too small, poor fit they are out of money.
> 
> But if the person who took the money wasn’t able to deliver the suit they have a responsibility to make it right. The understanding of the agreement was that a suit would be delivered.
> 
> They are not necessarily entitled to a refund. But you can’t just take money from people, deliver nothing and walk away. If that’s what a person wants to do they shouldn’t enter into agreements with others at all.



Completely agree with you on this. The problem is what if you buy that bathing suit on Amazon from one of their 3rd party sellers? Who handles the dispute? Amazon does because they value your business and they take care of you first then go to the 3rd party to handle it. The brokers should take care of the renters first. Seems like they and their contracts were not prepared to handle a situation like this. I think the contract stated the rental was non refundable for anything except a cancelation through the fault of an owner. I may be wrong on that, I'm sure someone can correct that if so


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> Completely agree with you on this. The problem is what if you buy that bathing suit on Amazon from one of their 3rd party sellers? Who handles the dispute? Amazon does because they value your business and they take care of you first then go to the 3rd party to handle it. The brokers should take care of the renters first. Seems like they and their contracts were not prepared to handle a situation like this. I think the contract stated the rental was non refundable for *anything except a cancelation through the fault of an owner*. I may be wrong on that, I'm sure someone can correct that if so


The resorts closing is a "fault" of the owner.  The owner is the one responsible for the resort being open.  DVCM works on behalf of the owner.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Madame said:


> Ok, but David’s is literally the topic of this thread.


I get it, but there have been many posts in this 139 paged thread that indicated the renter should bare some of the loss.  My post was in response to those posts.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I will point out that what seems like a life time ago I brought up the idea of the renters getting money back due to the contract(s) becoming impossible.  Not a popular idea at the time.  It is close to what you are saying, that the decision was made by our hired managers in our best interest.  In fact the hired managers were not hired by the owners.  If the owners change managers there are serious consequences to the owners.  The vote needed to change and the consequences are in the documents.  Management is wholly owned by Disney, run by Disney and there is literally no information about what was exchanged between Disney (various aspects) and management.  Management could have well been ordered to close.

You are also accepting as fact the 'conclusion' that management acted in the owner's best interest.  I don't recall any information that supports that conclusion.  It is an open question.  There is a fiduciary responsibility here, that means something.  It is not a 'business decision' as the standard typically required in corporations and shared ownership.



CanadaDisney05 said:


> Think of it more like a condo rather than a freehold.  It's common ownership.  As a condo owner, you own 100% of your unit plus a portion of the common areas.  You hold 100% of the risk of your unit, but share the proportionate risk of the common areas.  Because it is unrealistic to have everyone agree on everything, and equally take part in decision making, condo owners collectively pay a management company to run the day to day and make decisions based on *the best interest of the condo owners.*
> 
> When buying into the condo, you accept the fact that you are not going to be able to make decisions autonomously for the property that you own.  You are bound to a certain set of rules that could change at anytime by the management company.  In exchange, you are getting access to common areas, and sharing the operating costs and risks amongst the other owners.  When the elevator breaks in the condo, the owners don't go back to the builder and ask them to fix it because it's outside of their individual unit.  The owner's collectively pay for it through their condo fees.  If you want to have a bbq on your deck , but the agreed upon rules state you are not allowed to, you cannot just change the rules because you are an owner.  Depending on the specific condo association, you would need the owners collectively request that the rules be changed.
> 
> DVC is very similar.  I don't know the exact legalities, but I'm sure if enough owners made a formal protest that they didn't believe DVCM was acting faithfully in our best interest, we could have them removed and pay another management company to do the work.  But this would have to be a collective decision.  Not an individual decision.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> The resorts closing is a "fault" of the owner.  The owner is the one responsible for the resort being open.  DVCM works on behalf of the owner.


 
Interesting viewpoint. I disagree


----------



## CanadaDisney05

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I will point out that what seems like a life time ago I brought up the idea of the renters getting money back due to the contract(s) becoming impossible.  Not a popular idea at the time.  It is close to what you are saying, that the decision was made by our hired managers in our best interest.  In fact the hired managers were not hired by the owners.  If the owners change managers there are serious consequences to the owners.  The vote needed to change and the consequences are in the documents.  Management is wholly owned by Disney, run by Disney and there is literally no information about what was exchanged between Disney (various aspects) and management.  Management could have well been ordered to close.
> 
> You are also accepting as fact the 'conclusion' that management acted in the owner's best interest.  I don't recall any information that supports that conclusion.  It is an open question.  There is a fiduciary responsibility here, that means something.  It is not a 'business decision' as the standard typically required in corporations and shared ownership.


I think these are two separate issues.

1) What is the outlined responsibility of "Management".
2) What our collective opinion about the job they are doing.

I'm pretty comfortable in saying that DVCM has a legal responsibility to act in our best interest.  They "should" not be operating in a manner that puts Disney's bottom line ahead of the owner's best interest.  Whether or not they are acting responsible is personal opinion and up for debate.  It's similar to a politician.  In a democracy, we have an election to elect a representative of our interests.  Whether or not they end up acting in our best interest is debatable.  Whether or not they should be putting our own interest ahead of their personal interests is not up for debate.

I'm not suggesting one way or another whether I think DVCM is acting in our best interest.  I'm just illustrating that they are responsible to.  Maybe the accountability system is not setup in a manner that best limits conflicts of interest, but it is the system that we agreed to when we purchased our contracts.  Owning DVC is not a requirement, it is a choice.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> Interesting viewpoint. I disagree


We'll have to agree to disagree then.  Which is fine.


----------



## lovethesun12

MIDisFan said:


> Completely agree with you on this. The problem is what if you buy that bathing suit on Amazon from one of their 3rd party sellers? Who handles the dispute? Amazon does because they value your business and they take care of you first then go to the 3rd party to handle it. The brokers should take care of the renters first. Seems like they and their contracts were not prepared to handle a situation like this. I think the contract stated the rental was non refundable for anything except a cancelation through the fault of an owner. I may be wrong on that, I'm sure someone can correct that if so


You’re not wrong. But the non-refundable part was based on renters actually getting what they paid for, a reservation during that time frame, which owners did not deliver.

But my post was in response to owners painting renters as entitled for wanting a reservation they paid thousands for, not to how David’s handled it. I think a credit is a fair option.


----------



## Bowen Family

I recall reading (maybe on another thread, I’ve lost track!) that a DVC member received a recent email from David’s with an interpretation that as “owners” who have delegated their decision-making authority to DVC, David’s could technically insist on receiving the 70% back, since the members were by proxy responsible for the closure. And at the time that was a pretty dramatic change in tone from David’s first communications to members, which initially sought refunds from members on a strictly voluntary basis. Am I remembering that correctly? Anybody here have that email?

As for the outcome of chargebacks, in preparation for possibly filing one of our own, I spoke with my CC company about the process. The very first thing they asked me is what I’ve done to work this out with the vendor; and second, whether the vendor offered any sort of voucher. So I suspect that results of chargebacks will vary depending on the claimant’s ability to convince the CC company of meaningful attempts to find a resolution, and also to identify critical flaws with the voucher as offered. Personally, I’m ready to put in the work to get my money back, but others might not have the stomach for it, which I totally get. Vacation planning isn’t supposed to be like this for anyone. 

We’re also weighing whether Small Claims Court isn’t a better route (at least for those of us that live in Ontario where David’s is located). I have more faith in impartial mediation through Ontario’s legal system, and relying on our Consumer Protection Act in my defence, than inviting yet another self-interested party (Visa) into this mess. I could live with a ruling not in my favour from the courts. Less so from an underpaid 20-year old call centre worker/claims investigator from Visa. 

And just for the record, I immediately reached out to David’s in March when this all went down. I sought permission to deal directly with the DVC member to lessen David’s load, and to hopefully negotiate a solution that worked out equitably for all of us. But I was denied that request. So here we are.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I think these are two separate issues.
> 
> 1) What is the outlined responsibility of "Management".
> 2) What our collective opinion about the job they are doing.
> 
> I'm pretty comfortable in saying that DVCM has a legal responsibility to act in our best interest.  They "should" not be operating in a manner that puts Disney's bottom line ahead of the owner's best interest.  Whether or not they are acting responsible is personal opinion and up for debate.  It's similar to a politician.  In a democracy, we have an election to elect a representative of our interests.  Whether or not they end up acting in our best interest is debatable.  Whether or not they should be putting our own interest ahead of their personal interests is not up for debate.
> 
> I'm not suggesting one way or another whether I think DVCM is acting in our best interest.  I'm just illustrating that they are responsible to.  Maybe the accountability system is not setup in a manner that best limits conflicts of interest, but it is the system that we agreed to when we purchased our contracts.  Owning DVC is not a requirement, it is a choice.



It is not just a matter of opinion.  It is not similar to a politician.   

It subject to judicial review.  If enough owners decided to challenge management it would make a substantial impact on the Disney bottom line, leaving aside PR.  I will restate that I believe Disney has gone more than half way on this and the current issues.  Paying people when there is no obligation, providing health coverage, actually minimizing damage to both owners and renters all underline to me that Disney is a far cry from the robber barrons of the past.   That said avoiding attorney and class actions is a powerful motivator.   the difference between asking a court to review a 'business decision' is totally and completely different from a review of a possible breach of a fiduciary duty.  IMO and certainly not legal advice but I think a good case can be made that the decision to close was so material that it needed to be given to the owners.  A good case is not the same as easy case.

In terms of the well you choose to buy idea....if the documents required you to vote the way management instructed would you have to vote that way?  It is the same principle.  Law controls contracts not the other way around.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bowen Family said:


> I recall reading (maybe on another thread, I’ve lost track!) that a DVC member received a recent email from David’s with an interpretation that as “owners” who have delegated their decision-making authority to DVC, David’s could technically insist on receiving the 70% back, since the members were by proxy responsible for the closure. And at the time that was a pretty dramatic change in tone from David’s first communications to members, which initially sought refunds from members on a strictly voluntary basis. Am I remembering that correctly? Anybody here have that email?
> 
> As for the outcome of chargebacks, in preparation for possibly filing one of our own, I spoke with my CC company about the process. The very first thing they asked me is what I’ve done to work this out with the vendor; and second, whether the vendor offered any sort of voucher. So I suspect that results of chargebacks will vary depending on the claimant’s ability to convince the CC company of meaningful attempts to find a resolution, and also to identify critical flaws with the voucher as offered. Personally, I’m ready to put in the work to get my money back, but others might not have the stomach for it, which I totally get. Vacation planning isn’t supposed to be like this for anyone.
> 
> We’re also weighing whether Small Claims Court isn’t a better route (at least for those of us that live in Ontario where David’s is located). I have more faith in impartial mediation through Ontario’s legal system, and relying on our Consumer Protection Act in my defence, than inviting yet another self-interested party (Visa) into this mess. I could live with a ruling not in my favour from the courts. Less so from an underpaid 20-year old call centre worker/claims investigator from Visa.
> 
> And just for the record, I immediately reached out to David’s in March when this all went down. I sought permission to deal directly with the DVC member to lessen David’s load, and to hopefully negotiate a solution that worked out equitably for all of us. But I was denied that request. So here we are.


Yes this happened to me.  In fact it was the first time that argument was attributable to David that I had seen and some posting speculated it was a result of david reading these threads.  I don't see you attempting a CC would stop a small claims if you were unsuccessful in the CC.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> It is not just a matter of opinion.  It is not similar to a politician.
> 
> It subject to judicial review.  If enough owners decided to challenge management it would make a substantial impact on the Disney bottom line, leaving aside PR.  I will restate that I believe Disney has gone more than half way on this and the current issues.  Paying people when there is no obligation, providing health coverage, actually minimizing damage to both owners and renters all underline to me that Disney is a far cry from the robber barrons of the past.   That said avoiding attorney and class actions is a powerful motivator.   the difference between asking a court to review a 'business decision' is totally and completely different from a review of a possible breach of a fiduciary duty.  IMO and certainly not legal advice but I think a good case can be made that the decision to close was so material that it needed to be given to the owners.  A good case is not the same as easy case.
> 
> In terms of the well you choose to buy idea....if the documents required you to vote the way management instructed would you have to vote that way?  It is the same principle.  Law controls contracts not the other way around.


I think your misinterpreting what I'm saying.  I believe we are actually saying the same thing, in different words.

DVCM has the legal obligation to act on our behalf.

There are arguments whether or not you believe they are fulfilling that obligation or not.

I am 100% NOT suggesting that DVCM has the right to put our need's to the side in order to maximize profits of Disney.  Those are not the terms we signed up for in our purchase agreement.  The terms we agreed to were the controls put in place to deter DVCM from acting in the best interest of Disney.


----------



## Bowen Family

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I don't see you attempting a CC would stop a small claims if you were unsuccessful in the CC.



Agreed. Visa also told me we couldn’t start a claim until after our check-in date, which for us was this coming weekend .

I’ve left the door open to David’s to work with me on changes to the credit terms, which IMHO no renter should ever accept as offered, but haven’t had a response back. So come Monday next week, we’ll probably start both processes.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

I know this is WAY   but all the talk of what we own vs. lease, etc. got me thinking again about precisely which unit I own.  When I first purchased, I dug up the drawings showing where my unit was... it's room 7666 at Kidani Village.  Here's the view from "my" unit:

 

Then, I estimated how much of the room I "own" based on the square footage and my % interest in it.

Turns out, here's what I actually own:


----------



## Kevin_W

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I know this is WAY   but all the talk of what we own vs. lease, etc. got me thinking again about precisely which unit I own.  When I first purchased, I dug up the drawings showing where my unit was... it's room 7666 at Kidani Village.  Here's the view from "my" unit:
> 
> View attachment 493119
> 
> Then, I estimated how much of the room I "own" based on the square footage and my % interest in it.
> 
> Turns out, here's what I actually own:
> 
> View attachment 493120



Well, on an average day, the toilet is probably more useful than the giraffe.


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I know this is WAY   but all the talk of what we own vs. lease, etc. got me thinking again about precisely which unit I own.  When I first purchased, I dug up the drawings showing where my unit was... it's room 7666 at Kidani Village.  Here's the view from "my" unit:
> 
> View attachment 493119
> 
> Then, I estimated how much of the room I "own" based on the square footage and my % interest in it.
> 
> Turns out, here's what I actually own:
> 
> View attachment 493120


Do you think we own enough to claim Florida Resident discounts?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Maddiesmum03 said:


> Do you think we own enough to claim Florida Resident discounts?


I'll qualify after I add-on those 8000 points and move in to AKV.


----------



## cmrdgrs

I know there is disagreement on this, but as I stated earlier, I agree that DVCM has the ability on the behalf of owners to shut the resort, so in turn you could interpret that to say that I as an owner shut the resort, which in turn effected the renter from not being able to check-in.  It's actually the only point in this mess that I agree with David on.

Owners that didn't have a rentals, aren't just accepting that their points are lost, they expect Disney to "do" something for them.  I think it is completely unreasonable for an owner to say to a renter that what they booked was non-refundable, money lost because the owner lost the points.  I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think a court would side with an owner if they did this and the renter lost their money.

For me, as we have all been highlighting here, this 100% re-enforces that at the time the rental is made an owner's points may not be distressed, but any reservation has the ability for an owner's points to _become_ a distressed.

Current UY points that are used to book a reservation in the first 8 months of an owners UY should be worth more than banked points, and IMO a broker should pay more for these points.  Because let's face it in the event of a force majeure event, the best way the broker can actually fill the renters need to re-book a reservation and not return the renters money, is if the points they used from the original owner are bankable.

_*Correct me if I'm wrong renters*, but if you could be assured your vacation could be rebooked, you would be willing to accept a voucher?  The issue is that renters and owners have lost complete confidence with David and his ability to fulfill his vouchers._

The extension that Disney gave to April and June UYs was "nice" but it was limited.  Not as good as the original owner being able to bank their points, by their banking deadline, and extend the points for an entire year.

To do what I have described above brokers would need to completely rewrite their software, and rethink the way they do business.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

cmrdgrs said:


> _*Correct me if I'm wrong renters*, but if you could be assured your vacation could be rebooked, you would be willing to accept a voucher?  The issue is that renters and owners have lost complete confidence with David and his ability to fulfill his vouchers._


I'm not a renter, but I'm just trying to put myself in their shoes.  I would want my money back, not a voucher, even if the broker was an Expedia or another major travel agency.  I rented a specific reservation.  Not the promise of a future reservation.

Having said that, I would probably resign myself to accept the voucher rather than going down any legal path if the probability of me getting what I want was high.  The problem here is that the probability is low for many reasons that have been brought up (David's financial solvency, availability, etc...)


----------



## McCrae

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I stand corrected.  But that is not really the point I was making.  The point was, that the chargeback is a service being offered (whether by choice or mandated by law) by the credit card companies.  It is not a court order and is not a decision made by a judge.  It is not a precedent that could be used in court which is what the poster I was replying to was suggesting.


I does though indicate that an independent company views the contract conditions were not met.


----------



## cmrdgrs

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I'm not a renter, but I'm just trying to put myself in their shoes.  I would want my money back, not a voucher, even if the broker was an Expedia or another major travel agency.  I rented a specific reservation.  Not the promise of a future reservation.
> 
> Having said that, I would probably resign myself to accept the voucher rather than going down any legal path if the probability of me getting what I want was high.  The problem here is that the probability is low for many reasons that have been brought up (David's financial solvency, availability, etc...)


I agree.  If I were a renter I would want my money back too.  But, I'm looking at this from the eyes of broker, and the broker doesn't own the points, and he doesn't have all the money in hand to give back to the renter.  He gave 70% of what was collected to the owner.  I suppose the broker could get a bond of some type, carry insurance, or in the case of David who has been renting for a l-o-n-g time and has made a lot of money over the years, he maybe able to self-insure and give back the money.  All things to consider from the brokers side.

As a private owner, you have control, you can give back the money if you desire.  Maybe rentals with private individuals will become more popular.  For me, I rent at a minimum the same price (or even $1.00 or more) than a broker.  Usually, people want to pay me less, but maybe if they know I'll refund their money and check my references, they might balk less -- dunno.


----------



## Kevin_W

cmrdgrs said:


> _*Correct me if I'm wrong renters*, but if you could be assured your vacation could be rebooked, you would be willing to accept a voucher?  The issue is that renters and owners have lost complete confidence with David and his ability to fulfill his vouchers._





> I'm not a renter, but I'm just trying to put myself in their shoes. I would want my money back, not a voucher, even if the broker was an Expedia or another major travel agency. I rented a specific reservation. Not the promise of a future reservation.



I'm a renter, and like CanadaDisney05 said, I'd wan't my money back. We bought an AP at the end of last summer before the rates went up so we could go last summer and then again early this summer to make the price work.  If I don't go this summer, my AP will expire likely before I could use the voucher (even with Disney extensions).  Or, if I decided to go anyway I would have to re-book during a more expensive season.

All that said, I understand the situation is not ideal for anyone: renter, owner, or broker.  A guaranteed voucher would be better than losing my money entirely and might be a middle ground that would work for everyone.


----------



## McCrae

cmrdgrs said:


> I know there is disagreement on this, but as I stated earlier, I agree that DVCM has the ability on the behalf of owners to shut the resort, so in turn you could interpret that to say that I as an owner shut the resort, which in turn effected the renter from not being able to check-in.  It's actually the only point in this mess that I agree with David on.
> 
> Owners that didn't have a rentals, aren't just accepting that their points are lost, they expect Disney to "do" something for them.  I think it is completely unreasonable for an owner to say to a renter that what they booked was non-refundable, money lost because the owner lost the points.  I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think a court would side with an owner if they did this and the renter lost their money.
> 
> For me, as we have all been highlighting here, this 100% re-enforces that at the time the rental is made an owner's points may not be distressed, but any reservation has the ability for an owner's points to _become_ a distressed.
> 
> Current UY points that are used to book a reservation in the first 8 months of an owners UY should be worth more than banked points, and IMO a broker should pay more for these points.  Because let's face it in the event of a force majeure event, the best way the broker can actually fill the renters need to re-book a reservation and not return the renters money, is if the points they used from the original owner are bankable.
> 
> _*Correct me if I'm wrong renters*, but if you could be assured your vacation could be rebooked, you would be willing to accept a voucher?  The issue is that renters and owners have lost complete confidence with David and his ability to fulfill his vouchers._
> 
> The extension that Disney gave to April and June UYs was "nice" but it was limited.  Not as good as the original owner being able to bank their points, by their banking deadline, and extend the points for an entire year.
> 
> To do what I have described above brokers would need to completely rewrite their software, and rethink the way they do business.



The problem is not the status of points that doesn’t matter. It’s all down to a poorly written contract regarding  no refunds.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I know this is WAY   but all the talk of what we own vs. lease, etc. got me thinking again about precisely which unit I own.  When I first purchased, I dug up the drawings showing where my unit was... it's room 7666 at Kidani Village.  Here's the view from "my" unit:
> 
> View attachment 493119
> 
> Then, I estimated how much of the room I "own" based on the square footage and my % interest in it.
> 
> Turns out, here's what I actually own:
> 
> View attachment 493120


Recall you are only leasing the water


----------



## Grnl706

cmrdgrs said:


> I know there is disagreement on this, but as I stated earlier, I agree that DVCM has the ability on the behalf of owners to shut the resort, so in turn you could interpret that to say that I as an owner shut the resort, which in turn effected the renter from not being able to check-in.  It's actually the only point in this mess that I agree with David on.
> 
> Owners that didn't have a rentals, aren't just accepting that their points are lost, they expect Disney to "do" something for them.  I think it is completely unreasonable for an owner to say to a renter that what they booked was non-refundable, money lost because the owner lost the points.  I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think a court would side with an owner if they did this and the renter lost their money.
> 
> For me, as we have all been highlighting here, this 100% re-enforces that at the time the rental is made an owner's points may not be distressed, but any reservation has the ability for an owner's points to _become_ a distressed.
> 
> Current UY points that are used to book a reservation in the first 8 months of an owners UY should be worth more than banked points, and IMO a broker should pay more for these points.  Because let's face it in the event of a force majeure event, the best way the broker can actually fill the renters need to re-book a reservation and not return the renters money, is if the points they used from the original owner are bankable.
> 
> _*Correct me if I'm wrong renters*, but if you could be assured your vacation could be rebooked, you would be willing to accept a voucher?  The issue is that renters and owners have lost complete confidence with David and his ability to fulfill his vouchers._
> 
> The extension that Disney gave to April and June UYs was "nice" but it was limited.  Not as good as the original owner being able to bank their points, by their banking deadline, and extend the points for an entire year.
> 
> To do what I have described above brokers would need to completely rewrite their software, and rethink the way they do business.


Renter here. I'd want my money back as well. I understood I was booking a non-refundable room if I was the one having to cancel but not if the resort was closed. This was just too stressful and I would/am rebooking directly with Disney for the flexibility. I never plan on renting points again.


----------



## cmrdgrs

McCrae said:


> The problem is not the status of points that doesn’t matter. It’s all down to a poorly written contract regarding  no refunds.


Agreed.  The contract is written poorly. I was really looking to the future.  restructure the payment for points and better spell out what happens should the resorts close -- for the future.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Recall you are only leasing the water


And renting the adult beverages that go down the drain with that water.


----------



## Amymouse13

Update on chargeback saw note in my Citibank online they had reversed my chargeback... I called as I could not read it yet as it's not uploaded, but here is what I was told:. If the merchant argues (I guess sometimes they agree) it's reversed until you provide your side.  Good times... I'll start drafting my response to submit after it's uploaded with instructions.  Seems he just paperbombed them with pages from agreement online when we made reservation which isn't really pertinent..  stay tuned...


----------



## disneypharm

Amymouse13 said:


> Update on chargeback saw note in my Citibank online they had reversed my chargeback... I called as I could not read it yet as it's not uploaded, but here is what I was told:. If the merchant argues (I guess sometimes they agree) it's reversed until you provide your side.  Good times... I'll start drafting my response to submit after it's uploaded with instructions.  Seems he just paperbombed them with pages from agreement online when we made reservation which isn't really pertinent..  stay tuned...


Did you initially just call Citibank or sent them a request with papers?   I have 2 reservations that were made several months apart with 2 different CCs.  For one of my reservations, I submitted a long letter with information about the first contract and sections of the new contract that described the main differences between them.  This bank wanted me to fax (who uses faxes anymore!!) or send info in mail.  I just received a letter from them letting me know they are investigating.  They haven't posted any refunds yet.  The second bank is Chase and I called and started a dispute.  They added a refund to my account right away but I feel that they will reverse it as soon as they hear back from the broker.  So, each bank is different.  
Time for you to bombard them with papers too


----------



## cmrdgrs

Amymouse13 said:


> Update on chargeback saw note in my Citibank online they had reversed my chargeback... I called as I could not read it yet as it's not uploaded, but here is what I was told:. If the merchant argues (I guess sometimes they agree) it's reversed until you provide your side.  Good times... I'll start drafting my response to submit after it's uploaded with instructions.  Seems he just paperbombed them with pages from agreement online when we made reservation which isn't really pertinent..  stay tuned...


Sorry to hear this, but it doesn't mean your chargeback won't be successful.  Good luck!


----------



## Amymouse13

disneypharm said:


> Did you initially just call Citibank or sent them a request with papers?   I have 2 reservations that were made several months apart with 2 different CCs.  For one of my reservations, I submitted a long letter with information about the first contract and sections of the new contract that described the main differences between them.  This bank wanted me to fax (who uses faxes anymore!!) or send info in mail.  I just received a letter from them letting me know they are investigating.  They haven't posted any refunds yet.  The second bank is Chase and I called and started a dispute.  They added a refund to my account right away but I feel that they will reverse it as soon as they hear back from the broker.  So, each bank is different.
> Time for you to bombard them with papers too



Citibank uses an online dispute you can really only check box saying service not received.  They then contacted David's and here we are...

Bank of America we had to call, then they mailed us a form, then contacted David's, then mailed us a copy of everything David sent.  This is a harder one as I can't call them as I'm not on my husband's business credit card as user so they won't talk to me.... We tried to call last night but they close at 7pm...


----------



## disneypharm

Amymouse13 said:


> Citibank uses an online dispute you can really only check box saying service not received.  They then contacted David's and here we are...
> 
> Bank of America we had to call, then they mailed us a form, then contacted David's, then mailed us a copy of everything David sent.  This is a harder one as I can't call them as I'm not on my husband's business credit card as user so they won't talk to me.... We tried to call last night but they close at 7pm...


Very frustrating!!  One of the CCs is my husband's CC as well.  When we initially called, he told them that he authorizes me to discuss the matter with them, so I was able to do the dispute.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

I’m a renter who wants money not a voucher even in a perfect world where it could be guaranteed. I have no interest in dealing with the downsides of renting and what has now proven itself to be a lot more hassle for an ever shrinking benefit. On top of that, I have no interest in dealing with a pointless at best intermediary again.

We accepted the risks and downsides renting. We dealt with the much more inconvenient booking process, we accepted the lack of housekeeping, we accepted our inability to change or cancel, we accepted our inability to contact Disney about our reservation, etc. We purchased insurance, which should have worked beautifully... until David’s decided to become wishy washy with their no refunds.

I’m done with the drama. I want my money back, especially the 50% or so that I don’t think most renters except those on this website even realize never went to an owner.


----------



## Bowen Family

I have some new info to share. Apologies, I don't think I'm allowed to post links to the full regs, but they're easy enough to find if you want to read them in full.

Section 46 of Ontario's Travel Industry Act (O. Reg 26/05) used to say this:

----------------------------

*Duty of registrant who resells travel services*
46. If a registrant acquires rights to travel services for resale to other registrants or to customers and the supplier fails to provide the travel services paid for by a customer, the registrant who acquired the rights for resale *shall reimburse the customer or provide comparable alternate travel services acceptable to the customer.*  O. Reg. 26/05, s. 46.

-----------------------------

My note: On March 30, 2020, the Province of Ontario (via O. Reg 101/20) amended the act as follows:

------------------------------

Section 46 of the Regulation is revoked and the following substituted:

*Duty of registrant who resells travel services*
46. (1) If a registrant acquires rights to travel services for resale to other registrants or to customers, and the supplier fails to provide the travel services paid for by a customer, the registrant who acquired the rights for resale shall,
(a) reimburse the customer;
(b) provide comparable alternate travel services that are acceptable to the customer; or
(c) provide the customer with a voucher, certificate, coupon or similar document that is acceptable to the customer, for future redemption towards travel services.

(2) Despite subsection (1), if the supplier’s failure to provide the travel services *is related to coronavirus (COVID-19)*, the registrant may elect to provide the customer with a *voucher*, certificate, coupon or similar document, for future redemption towards travel services.

(3) The voucher, certificate, coupon or similar document referred to in subsection (2) shall,

(a) *be of at least equal value to the travel services not provided;* and

(b) be redeemable for a period of at least one year after the day it was issued, but not be limited to acquiring travel services that take place during that period.

(4) Subsections (2) and (3) apply with respect to a supplier’s failure to provide travel services that occurs on or after the day this subsection comes into force.

(5) Subsections (2), (3), (4) and this subsection are revoked on April 1, 2021.

--------------------------------

6. The Regulation is amended by adding the following section:
*Application re voucher, certificate, coupon or similar document

56.1 *In sections 57 to 71,

(a) the person who redeems a voucher, certificate, coupon or similar document for travel services is considered to be the person who pays for the travel services; and

*(b) the value of the travel services for which the voucher, certificate, coupon or similar document was redeemed is considered to be the amount paid.*


----------



## cmrdgrs

@Bowen Family *-- *This is an interesting post. But, wouldn't you think that if your Agreement with David was signed before April 18th that the original act would stand?

ETA: I guess this answers my question posed much earlier in this thread about the type of business that David operates under -- he is formally a travel agent?


----------



## Donna M

.


----------



## Dracula

Donna M said:


> .


Those were the good old days.... Now we probably get 10 squares per guest, per day. Single ply.


----------



## lovethesun12

cmrdgrs said:


> @Bowen Family *-- *This is an interesting post. But, wouldn't you think that if your Agreement with David was signed before April 18th that the original act would stand?
> 
> ETA: I guess this answers my question posed much earlier in this thread about the type of business that David operates under -- he is formally a travel agent?


Vouchers are not uncommon here. Could just be providing clarification after inquiries.


----------



## Bowen Family

cmrdgrs said:


> @Bowen Family *-- *This is an interesting post. But, wouldn't you think that if your Agreement with David was signed before April 18th that the original act would stand?
> 
> ETA: I guess this answers my question posed much earlier in this thread about the type of business that David operates under -- he is formally a travel agent?



FYI: I've edited my post with a March 30, 2020 date, as upon further research, this is the date when the reg came into force. It was published in the Ontario Gazette on April 18, 2020, though this is a minor and not terribly interesting distinction!

And my interpretation is that it is meant to apply to travel services (accommodations in this instance) cancelled after the March 30, 2020 date, so the date of the original rental agreement is not likely a factor.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

_(2) Despite subsection (1), if the supplier’s failure to provide the travel services *is related to coronavirus (COVID-19)*, the registrant may elect to provide the customer with a *voucher*, certificate, coupon or similar document, for future redemption towards travel services. _

I see this as a big complication for CC and avoiding the voucher


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Donna M said:


> .





Dracula said:


> Those were the good old days.... Now we probably get 10 squares per guest, per day. Single ply.


This reply makes me REALLY wish I'd seen the OP before it was edited!


----------



## Bowen Family

Amymouse13 said:


> Citibank uses an online dispute you can really only check box saying service not received.  They then contacted David's and here we are...
> 
> Bank of America we had to call, then they mailed us a form, then contacted David's, then mailed us a copy of everything David sent.  This is a harder one as I can't call them as I'm not on my husband's business credit card as user so they won't talk to me.... We tried to call last night but they close at 7pm...



Thanks for this helpful info. Do you mind briefly describing for us the documentation David’s provided Bank of America? Is it the Ontario Travel Industry Act regulations I posted this afternoon?

And good luck!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Ok I’m a bit frustrated 
I rented out my points - with David’s approval I contacted thru David’s and told my renter I would rebook them if they did not want to travel and Disney was closed - they did not and it was
David quit speaking to my renter and to me 
I was in contact with renter and knew the dates they wished to book. Contacted renter to find out they accepted travel voucher from David’s 
Ahh where does this place me now ? I have not received any communication from David’s nor would I have known about travel voucher if I had not contacted renter 
Here I was trying to be decent and don’t feel like renter is being decent at all - as renter was very vague in offering in details to me at all 
So are they rebooked ? I don’t know 
Am I to rebook ? I don’t know 
Is anyone telling me anything ? Nope


----------



## Amymouse13

Bowen Family said:


> Thanks for this helpful info. Do you mind briefly describing for us the documentation David’s provided Bank of America? Is it the Ontario Travel Industry Act regulations I posted this afternoon?
> 
> And good luck!



Looked like screen shots of computer screens like during making reservations?  Highlighted no refund policy... 

Both Citibank and Bank of America said this is all normal... That we have to fight after they respond


----------



## DGsAtBLT

For what it's worth the representative from our CC company told us offering a voucher shouldn't have any bearing on a dispute of this nature. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure, but just thought I'd throw it out there.


----------



## disneypharm

Amymouse13 said:


> Looked like screen shots of computer screens like during making reservations?  Highlighted no refund policy...
> 
> Both Citibank and Bank of America said this is all normal... That we have to fight after they respond


Then maybe you should send the following section of the contract highlighted back to the CC company:
"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, *the Renter will be due a refund limited t*o the amount paid which is $XXX US Dollars."


----------



## Best_Vacation_EVER!

Feel super bad so bad for everyone that has to deal with this.  We tried a couple of times to book with Davids for our Dec 2020 trip --- no success --- and I am *SO* grateful for that now. Our Res is with WDW directly so we're covered.

Definitely hope that things work out for everyone.


----------



## DisneyBB

WDWEPCOT said:


> Ok I’m a bit frustrated
> I rented out my points - with David’s approval I contacted thru David’s and told my renter I would rebook them if they did not want to travel and Disney was closed - they did not and it was
> David quit speaking to my renter and to me
> I was in contact with renter and knew the dates they wished to book. Contacted renter to find out they accepted travel voucher from David’s
> Ahh where does this place me now ? I have not received any communication from David’s nor would I have known about travel voucher if I had not contacted renter
> Here I was trying to be decent and don’t feel like renter is being decent at all - as renter was very vague in offering in details to me at all
> So are they rebooked ? I don’t know
> Am I to rebook ? I don’t know
> Is anyone telling me anything ? Nope


When was your original reservation?  How frustrating for you not to get a reply from David when you are doing the right thing.  I decided for my rentals to leave it upto David to contact renters as I didn’t want it to get messy.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

My renters were for early April


----------



## DisneyBB

WDWEPCOT said:


> My renters were for early April


So did David give you the 30% or ask for the money back or request the use of your points for a future booking?  If he hasn’t then I would send an email stating a date by which you want to hear from him before considering the contract full filled.  If your renters have a voucher then they are fulfilled.  If your points need banking then state that deadline.  I would be very clear what you are prepared to do.   I would be frustrated by the lack of response as well.  He was very prompt at replying to me about my future rentals.


----------



## MIDisFan

disneypharm said:


> Then maybe you should send the following section of the contract highlighted back to the CC company:
> "Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an *action or omission by the Owner*, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXX US Dollars."



I truly hope every renter is made whole and owners as well. I just don't see any action or omission by the owners. I think an argument can be made that DVC did not make the decision to shut down. Did the executive order issued by the Governor exclude Disney World? I thought it was mandated as a non essential business to close. Therefore, members, by proxy, are not responsible because DVC did not make the decision on our behalf or otherwise. In any event, the only opinion that will matter is your CC company's opinion. Hopefully everyone who goes this route is successful.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I have not heard from David’s since March last word I had from my renter was that David’s had stopped communicating with them - I checked with renter since the new dates picked were coming up to be booked to find out they have voucher 
No I have not received 30% and my points are good to be rented 
My concern is I have a contract until proven otherwise I have a signed contract with this renter - so release me from this contract - then we can go down that rabbit hole - either the contracts are valid or they are not but we can’t play it both ways to David’s advantage and everyone else determent . I myself want something in writing releasing me from this contract.  I am not a lawyer but contracts are legal binding documents and can’t be changed unless ALL parties agree to change them. I do not recall being asked if I agreed to a voucher nor was I asked to fulfill said voucher 
So here we are


----------



## DisneyBB

WDWEPCOT said:


> I have not heard from David’s since March last word I had from my renter was that David’s had stopped communicating with them - I checked with renter since the new dates picked were coming up to be booked to find out they have voucher
> No I have not received 30% and my points are good to be rented
> My concern is I have a contract until proven otherwise I have a signed contract with this renter - so release me from this contract - then we can go down that rabbit hole - either the contracts are valid or they are not but we can’t play it both ways to David’s advantage and everyone else determent . I myself want something in writing releasing me from this contract.  I am not a lawyer but contracts are legal binding documents and can’t be changed unless ALL parties agree to change them. I do not recall being asked if I agreed to a voucher nor was I asked to fulfill said voucher
> So here we are


You are completely right to be cautious of the next move.  David should be talking to you because you are an owner that is willing to work with him.  If I were you I would stop talking to your renter and send an email to Davids asking for clarity.  Give him a date to reply to you,  stating the possible dates the renter has asked for with the booking window coming up.  Ask him what he wants you do with the booking.   He will not want the renter to have a voucher and a booking.  But he may want to use your points for someone else or the original renter.  Make sure he knows when the points expire and are of no more use.  I think your email maybe at the bottom of the pile now and he may think it has been dealt with.  Your contract is with Davids not the renter.  I decided not to talk to my renters as it would complicate things.


----------



## McCrae

WDWEPCOT said:


> I have not heard from David’s since March last word I had from my renter was that David’s had stopped communicating with them - I checked with renter since the new dates picked were coming up to be booked to find out they have voucher
> No I have not received 30% and my points are good to be rented
> My concern is I have a contract until proven otherwise I have a signed contract with this renter - so release me from this contract - then we can go down that rabbit hole - either the contracts are valid or they are not but we can’t play it both ways to David’s advantage and everyone else determent . I myself want something in writing releasing me from this contract.  I am not a lawyer but contracts are legal binding documents and can’t be changed unless ALL parties agree to change them. I do not recall being asked if I agreed to a voucher nor was I asked to fulfill said voucher
> So here we are



I am an owner and understand your concerns. My reservation was in April. I have not received the remaining 30% from David’s. I was told to wait until Disney cancelled. I did this. I have been asked if I would like to help out by re-renting. I am undecided on this.  Regardless of what I do David’s sent me an email stating I have fulfilled my contract with them.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I did NOT cancel either I waited for Disney to do it 
Radio silence from David’s on my rents and on the points I have rented also


----------



## WDWEPCOT

My concern is the renter could obtain two rentals now - one from me because David knows we are working and one with the voucher 
I think I am just going to wait for David to contact me - he’s the Broker earn your commission - he has too many different people handling one person


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> I truly hope every renter is made whole and owners as well. I just don't see any action or omission by the owners. I think an argument can be made that DVC did not make the decision to shut down. Did the executive order issued by the Governor exclude Disney World? I thought it was mandated as a non essential business to close. Therefore, members, by proxy, are not responsible because DVC did not make the decision on our behalf or otherwise. In any event, the only opinion that will matter is your CC company's opinion. Hopefully everyone who goes this route is successful.


From my understanding, businesses that provide accomodations including hotels and timeshares are considered an essential business.  The shutting down of the resort was a Disney/DVCM decision, not a government order.


----------



## lovethesun12

MIDisFan said:


> I truly hope every renter is made whole and owners as well. I just don't see any action or omission by the owners. I think an argument can be made that DVC did not make the decision to shut down. Did the executive order issued by the Governor exclude Disney World? I thought it was mandated as a non essential business to close. Therefore, members, by proxy, are not responsible because DVC did not make the decision on our behalf or otherwise. In any event, the only opinion that will matter is your CC company's opinion. Hopefully everyone who goes this route is successful.


This is a circular discussion because owners are going to argue they are not responsible and so are renters.

But my argument there would be:
1) Not having a reservation available is the action/omission
2) If you want to argue the owner/DVC didn't make the decision the contract specifically states "should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the *Owner*, including *but not limited* to negligence on the part of the owner".

The entire purpose of the contract was to provide the renter with a reservation. It is NOT limited to negligence on their part.


----------



## Bowen Family

MIDisFan said:


> I truly hope every renter is made whole and owners as well. I just don't see any action or omission by the owners. I think an argument can be made that DVC did not make the decision to shut down. Did the executive order issued by the Governor exclude Disney World? I thought it was mandated as a non essential business to close. Therefore, members, by proxy, are not responsible because DVC did not make the decision on our behalf or otherwise. In any event, the only opinion that will matter is your CC company's opinion. Hopefully everyone who goes this route is successful.



I'm interested in this distinction also. From my understanding (and admittedly, I'm working from media reports, so this may not be fully accurate), Florida's governor declared hotels essential services and permitted to them to open or close at their discretion. So I can in fact book a room at any of the Disney Springs area hotels right now, but right across the street, Saratoga Springs is closed. 

Complicating things further is the governor's Exec Order 20-87, which suspends rental of "vacation rental properties", but this order also very clearly exempts "...hotels, motels, inns, *resorts*, non-transient public lodging establishments, or *time share projects.*"

So theme/amusement parks are undoubtedly closed by these orders, but are their resorts? Or are they, like the Disney Springs hotels, legally permitted to be open right now? And to be clear, I'm not suggesting they should be. I'm just interested in the distinction. 

Anyone else have insight to share on this?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bowen Family said:


> I'm interested in this distinction also. From my understanding (and admittedly, I'm working from media reports, so this may not be fully accurate), Florida's governor declared hotels essential services and permitted to them to open or close at their discretion. So I can in fact book a room at any of the Disney Springs area hotels right now, but right across the street, Saratoga Springs is closed.
> 
> Complicating things further is the governor's Exec Order 20-87, which suspends rental of "vacation rental properties", but this order also very clearly exempts "...hotels, motels, inns, *resorts*, non-transient public lodging establishments, or *time share projects.*"
> 
> So theme/amusement parks are undoubtedly closed by these orders, but are their resorts? Or are they, like the Disney Springs hotels, legally permitted to be open right now? And to be clear, I'm not suggesting they should be. I'm just interested in the distinction.
> 
> Anyone else have insight to share on this?


To be on the bright side I will take the position, and it is a position, that 'vacation rental properties' includes DVC points when rented for any of several reasons that would be more apt on non disney rentals...eg keep out of state people from coming
Whereas a time share project would be far less rental and out of state travel and concern owners


----------



## disneypharm

MIDisFan said:


> I truly hope every renter is made whole and owners as well. I just don't see any action or omission by the owners. I think an argument can be made that DVC did not make the decision to shut down. Did the executive order issued by the Governor exclude Disney World? I thought it was mandated as a non essential business to close. Therefore, members, by proxy, are not responsible because DVC did not make the decision on our behalf or otherwise. In any event, the only opinion that will matter is your CC company's opinion. Hopefully everyone who goes this route is successful.


You highlighted the owner's section of the paragraph.  I never highlighted that part of the paragraph to blame the owner.  Based on the initial contract, if no accommodations, you get a refund, regardless of who is at fault.  This is what I was told on the phone by my CC representative.  Of course, the broker will send the non-refundable part to the CC company for his own defense without sending the second paragraph.  It is our job as the CC owners to let the CC company know that there are more info on the first and second contracts.


----------



## SageG

What is the latest reservation that someone has had cancelled at this point?  I have a split stay coming up that still hasn't been cancelled for some reason (based on what others had said, I had assumed the first leg would've been by now).  First stay is BLT checking in on 5/21 and out on 5/27; second is Villas at Grand Floridian checking in on 5/27 and out on 6/1.  Curious if anyone has been cancelled in that same window yet.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Per my credit card - no room refund period ! From Chase


----------



## disneypharm

SageG said:


> What is the latest reservation that someone has had cancelled at this point?  I have a split stay coming up that still hasn't been cancelled for some reason (based on what others had said, I had assumed the first leg would've been by now).  First stay is BLT checking in on 5/21 and out on 5/27; second is Villas at Grand Floridian checking in on 5/27 and out on 6/1.  Curious if anyone has been cancelled in that same window yet.


We have a split stay for May 9th (cancelled on Monday May 4th) and May 12th (cancelled on Tuesday May 5th).  So, your dates will most likely get cancelled 5 days before.


----------



## MIDisFan

disneypharm said:


> You highlighted the owner's section of the paragraph.  I never highlighted that part of the paragraph to blame the owner.  Based on the initial contract, if no accommodations, you get a refund, regardless of who is at fault.  This is what I was told on the phone by my CC representative.  Of course, the broker will send the non-refundable part to the CC company for his own defense without sending the second paragraph.  It is our job as the CC owners to let the CC company know that there are more info on the first and second contracts.



My apologies. I only quoted your post to highlight the wording in the contract. I wish you all have success with charge backs through your CC companies.


----------



## Sandisw

Bowen Family said:


> I'm interested in this distinction also. From my understanding (and admittedly, I'm working from media reports, so this may not be fully accurate), Florida's governor declared hotels essential services and permitted to them to open or close at their discretion. So I can in fact book a room at any of the Disney Springs area hotels right now, but right across the street, Saratoga Springs is closed.
> 
> Complicating things further is the governor's Exec Order 20-87, which suspends rental of "vacation rental properties", but this order also very clearly exempts "...hotels, motels, inns, *resorts*, non-transient public lodging establishments, or *time share projects.*"
> 
> So theme/amusement parks are undoubtedly closed by these orders, but are their resorts? Or are they, like the Disney Springs hotels, legally permitted to be open right now? And to be clear, I'm not suggesting they should be. I'm just interested in the distinction.
> 
> Anyone else have insight to share on this?



I have posted this in several places, so I will summarize,  POSgives DVCM the right to shut down once a state of emergency is declared,  The property management agreement is with Disney so that plays a role too,  Under both of these it gave DVCM the authority to shut down due to health and safety,  It is not required that they be ordered to shut down,

Once those emergency orders are lifted, then they have to open back up in what would be considered a reasonable amount of time,,,ie: can’t stay closed any longer than necessary. But, as long as there are stare or local orders giving them the ability to stay shut, it’s up to them to decide.


----------



## Bowen Family

Sandisw said:


> I have posted this in several places, so I will summarize,  POSgives DVCM the right to shut down once a state of emergency is declared,  The property management agreement is with Disney so that plays a role too,  Under both of these it gave DVCM the authority to shut down due to health and safety,  It is not required that they be ordered to shut down,
> 
> Once those emergency orders are lifted, then they have to open back up in what would be considered a reasonable amount of time,,,ie: can’t stay closed any longer than necessary. But, as long as there are stare or local orders giving them the ability to stay shut, it’s up to them to decide.



Thank you! Very helpful.


----------



## MIDisFan

Sandisw said:


> I have posted this in several places, so I will summarize,  POSgives DVCM the right to shut down once a state of emergency is declared,  The property management agreement is with Disney so that plays a role too,  Under both of these it gave DVCM the authority to shut down due to health and safety,  It is not required that they be ordered to shut down,
> 
> Once those emergency orders are lifted, then they have to open back up in what would be considered a reasonable amount of time,,,ie: can’t stay closed any longer than necessary. But, as long as there are stare or local orders giving them the ability to stay shut, it’s up to them to decide.


 
State of Emergency would be different from a stay at home order would it not? While DVC would have a right to shut down under a State of Emergency, that would not be the case if they were mandated to shut down under an executive order from state.


----------



## Dracula

WDWEPCOT said:


> Per my credit card - no room refund period ! From Chase


Does this mean they denied your chargeback? Are you planning to appeal that, what is the next step?


----------



## Amymouse13

WDWEPCOT said:


> Per my credit card - no room refund period ! From Chase



We were told by both credit cards this is expected, we have to respond now


----------



## momincolorado

Dracula said:


> Does this mean they denied your chargeback? Are you planning to appeal that, what is the next step?



I read this as Chase’s position is if no room available you get a refund, period.


----------



## Sandisw

MIDisFan said:


> State of Emergency would be different from a stay at home order would it not? While DVC would have a right to shut down under a State of Emergency, that would not be the case if they were mandated to shut down under an executive order from state.



Yes, those are different, but DVCM shut down DVC resorts before any stay at home was issued,  They were shut down at the same time Disney shut down their own resorts.

I think the point is that when the decision was made, it was legally done via emergency powers given to them via the POS.


----------



## merry_nbright

As stated before, I’ve got a reservation from them booked from June 13-20. My dad has a ton of underlying conditions and even if the parks are open, we are not going. Every week I email them and they reply back, saying stuff like we need to take care of the May customers first and they will work with me to rebook or a voucher, but I am still beyond stressed about this. I think I’m so neurotic, they’re getting annoyed by my once a week emails. Oh well. I don’t quit and I won’t until this is taken care of.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

merry_nbright said:


> As stated before, I’ve got a reservation from them booked from June 13-20. My dad has a ton of underlying conditions and even if the parks are open, we are not going. Every week I email them and they reply back, saying stuff like we need to take care of the May customers first and they will work with me to rebook or a voucher, but I am still beyond stressed about this. I think I’m so neurotic, they’re getting annoyed by my once a week emails. Oh well. I don’t quit and I won’t until this is taken care of.



They’re willing to give you a voucher even if the parks and resorts are open?


----------



## merry_nbright

DGsAtBLT said:


> They’re willing to give you a voucher even if the parks and resorts are open?



No clue, but they did say they will work with me to get it changed, so, take that as you will.


----------



## Marionnette

momincolorado said:


> I read this as Chase’s position is if no room available you get a refund, period.


Puntuation would help.

Is is it: 

no room = refund, period!

or

no room refund, period!​


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I have not received a denied - David has until June 3rd to reply 
As for my rented points I’ve heard nothing since March 
As in Owner who rented points out - I’ve heard nothing since March


----------



## starry_solo

merry_nbright said:


> No clue, but they did say they will work with me to get it changed, so, take that as you will.



They probably expect WDW to remain closed but if the resorts are open during that time and you choose not to go, try to see if they.can change the name on the reservation


----------



## merry_nbright

starry_solo said:


> They probably expect WDW to remain closed but if the resorts are open during that time and you choose not to go, try to see if they.can change the name on the reservation



Fine with me, just as long as they do what they said and work with me! So fingers crossed!


----------



## banzai75

merry_nbright said:


> No clue, but they did say they will work with me to get it changed, so, take that as you will.



I think they are stalling to see what happens come June.  If resorts open up, then they don't have to give you a voucher.   You should try to contact owner if you can find them.


----------



## Sandisw

merry_nbright said:


> Fine with me, just as long as they do what they said and work with me! So fingers crossed!



It will be interesting how they deal with your case if resorts are open  as most owners would expect to be paid in full regardless of whether you want to go.

If Davids decides to help you out, that would be great for you.


----------



## fancymouse

cmrdgrs said:


> I agree.  If I were a renter I would want my money back too.  But, I'm looking at this from the eyes of broker, and the broker doesn't own the points, and he doesn't have all the money in hand to give back to the renter.  He gave 70% of what was collected to the owner.  I suppose the broker could get a bond of some type, carry insurance, or in the case of David who has been renting for a l-o-n-g time and has made a lot of money over the years, he maybe able to self-insure and give back the money.  All things to consider from the brokers side.
> 
> As a private owner, you have control, you can give back the money if you desire.  Maybe rentals with private individuals will become more popular.  For me, I rent at a minimum the same price (or even $1.00 or more) than a broker.  Usually, people want to pay me less, but maybe if they know I'll refund their money and check my references, they might balk less -- dunno.



Just curious- I normally book with Disney, but tried out David’s for a November reservation. Naively I thought booking with a broker provided at least some level of security, but see now that’s not the case. I know I will never use a broker again, but have wondered if renting from a private owner could possibly be any better. Did you have rentals during this time period? Are you saying you gave them their money back? Just wondering and if so that was nice of you. It sounds like some owners didn’t (and I get both sides of the argument), but I was thinking I would be willing to pay a higher price per point if it meant the risk was split a little more fairly. Or pay a higher price for points that could be used for longer. There is such a gap between Disney prices and rental prices that there’s a lot of room to work with. Also, again, just curious do you draft any sort of contract or anything? Sorry for the questions, I have just never looked into private rentals before and am wondering how someone would distinguish renting from different owners as some clearly have different views on situations like this. Just wondering if you spell it out in advance.


----------



## cmrdgrs

fancymouse said:


> Just curious- I normally book with Disney, but tried out David’s for a November reservation. Naively I thought booking with a broker provided at least some level of security, but see now that’s not the case. I know I will never use a broker again, but have wondered if renting from a private owner could possibly be any better. Did you have rentals during this time period? Are you saying you gave them their money back? Just wondering and if so that was nice of you. It sounds like some owners didn’t (and I get both sides of the argument), but I was thinking I would be willing to pay a higher price per point if it meant the risk was split a little more fairly. Or pay a higher price for points that could be used for longer. There is such a gap between Disney prices and rental prices that there’s a lot of room to work with. Also, again, just curious do you draft any sort of contract or anything? Sorry for the questions, I have just never looked into private rentals before and am wondering how someone would distinguish renting from different owners as some clearly have different views on situations like this. Just wondering if you spell it out in advance.


Every owner is different.  I do not think admin would appreciate my discussing how I handle a renter on this thread.  For several reasons, and it's off topic.  But, I don't think anything would stop us from talking via PM


----------



## Dracula

fancymouse said:


> Just curious- I normally book with Disney, but tried out David’s for a November reservation. Naively I thought booking with a broker provided at least some level of security, but see now that’s not the case. I know I will never use a broker again, but have wondered if renting from a private owner could possibly be any better. Did you have rentals during this time period? Are you saying you gave them their money back? Just wondering and if so that was nice of you. It sounds like some owners didn’t (and I get both sides of the argument), but I was thinking I would be willing to pay a higher price per point if it meant the risk was split a little more fairly. Or pay a higher price for points that could be used for longer. There is such a gap between Disney prices and rental prices that there’s a lot of room to work with. Also, again, just curious do you draft any sort of contract or anything? Sorry for the questions, I have just never looked into private rentals before and am wondering how someone would distinguish renting from different owners as some clearly have different views on situations like this. Just wondering if you spell it out in advance.


Here is why it's better to deal directly with the owner:
- Prices are better - most owners split David's commission of $4.50 per point with the renter
- You have the owner's address and contact information
- Most owners do not require any deposit to check availability for you
- It should be no problem for owners to arrange a date change, or change the main guest on the reservation (which David does not allow)
- You don't have to worry about David becoming bankrupt (however you may still worry that owner would not pay his dues)


----------



## cmrdgrs

However, broker renters always have to worry about an Owner defaulting on their MFs


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Here is why it's better to deal directly with the owner:
> - _*Prices are better - most owners split David's commission of $4.50 per point with the renter*_
> - You have the owner's address and contact information
> - Most owners do not require any deposit to check availability for you
> - It should be no problem for owners to arrange a date change, or change the main guest on the reservation (which David does not allow)
> - You don't have to worry about David becoming bankrupt (however you may still worry that owner would not pay his dues)


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Here is why it's better to deal directly with the owner:
> - _*Prices are better - most owners split David's commission of $4.50 per point with the renter*_
> - You have the owner's address and contact information
> - Most owners do not require any deposit to check availability for you
> - It should be no problem for owners to arrange a date change, or change the main guest on the reservation (which David does not allow)
> - You don't have to worry about David becoming bankrupt (however you may still worry that owner would not pay his dues)


Sometimes.... not always


----------



## fancymouse

cmrdgrs said:


> Every owner is different.  I do not think admin would appreciate my discussing how I handle a renter on this thread.  For several reasons, and it's off topic.  But, I don't think anything would stop us from talking via PM





Dracula said:


> Here is why it's better to deal directly with the owner:
> - Prices are better - most owners split David's commission of $4.50 per point with the renter
> - You have the owner's address and contact information
> - Most owners do not require any deposit to check availability for you
> - It should be no problem for owners to arrange a date change, or change the main guest on the reservation (which David does not allow)
> - You don't have to worry about David becoming bankrupt (however you may still worry that owner would not pay his dues)


I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to go off topic. I've been following this thread for weeks and it seemed like some of the more recent posts were musing about the future of David's and the rental market in general. I was just looking for some clarity of how booking directly from an owner would be better/different. IIRC the new contract for David's had a clause about the hotels being closed and put the responsibility back onto the owner? I hope I'm remembering that correctly. Strictly from a  renters perspective this seems safer, but does this scare away owners and if so what's the alternative for both renters and owners? On that note maybe David's ends up charging more since there is now a little more security. Or maybe they do break down the points into different categories for UY and charge different prices. No one needs to answer if this isn't the place for it, I was just wondering! Thanks!


----------



## cmrdgrs

fancymouse said:


> I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to go off topic. I've been following this thread for weeks and it seemed like some of the more recent posts were musing about the future of David's and the rental market in general. I was just looking for some clarity of how booking directly from an owner would be better/different. IIRC the new contract for David's had a clause about the hotels being closed and put the responsibility back onto the owner? I hope I'm remembering that correctly. Strictly from a  renters perspective this seems safer, but does this scare away owners and if so what's the alternative for both renters and owners? On that note maybe David's ends up charging more since there is now a little more security. Or maybe they do break down the points into different categories for UY and charge different prices. No one needs to answer if this isn't the place for it, I was just wondering! Thanks!


if you increase your post count, you can PM people and take the discussion offline.  I think you need a minimum of 10 posts to private message people (or get private messages)


----------



## ScubaCat

fancymouse said:


> No one needs to answer if this isn't the place for it, I was just wondering! Thanks!





cmrdgrs said:


> if you increase your post count, you can PM people and take the discussion offline.  I think you need a minimum of 10 posts to private message people (or get private messages)



You can get to 10 posts by posting 7 more times real quick here:  https://www.disboards.com/threads/posting-to-up-your-post-count.3757047/


----------



## disneypharm

fancymouse said:


> I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to go off topic. I've been following this thread for weeks and it seemed like some of the more recent posts were musing about the future of David's and the rental market in general. I was just looking for some clarity of how booking directly from an owner would be better/different. IIRC the new contract for David's had a clause about the hotels being closed and put the responsibility back onto the owner? I hope I'm remembering that correctly.* Strictly from a  renters perspective this seems safer, *but does this scare away owners and if so what's the alternative for both renters and owners? On that note maybe David's ends up charging more since there is now a little more security. Or maybe they do break down the points into different categories for UY and charge different prices. No one needs to answer if this isn't the place for it, I was just wondering! Thanks!


Not really!!  Although the first renter's contract states that no accommodation, you get a refund, the new contracts has the following new clause:
"In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."  So, no it is not safer!!


----------



## DisneyBB

disneypharm said:


> Not really!!  Although the first renter's contract states that no accommodation, you get a refund, the new contracts has the following new clause:
> "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."  So, no it is not safer!!


Isn’t that for the credit voucher?  Think if the above happens it falls on the owner to refund.


----------



## Donna M

fancymouse said:


> I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to go off topic. I've been following this thread for weeks and it seemed like some of the more recent posts were musing about the future of David's and the rental market in general. I was just looking for some clarity of how booking directly from an owner would be better/different. IIRC the new contract for David's had a clause about the hotels being closed and put the responsibility back onto the owner? I hope I'm remembering that correctly. Strictly from a  renters perspective this seems safer, *but does this scare away owners *and if so what's the alternative for both renters and owners? On that note maybe David's ends up charging more since there is now a little more security. Or maybe they do break down the points into different categories for UY and charge different prices. No one needs to answer if this isn't the place for it, I was just wondering! Thanks!



Yes! The new contract sure scares me off. There's a section that says the owner will need to pay additional money if the initial unit is no longer available, and David gets to choose the replacement.  I look at that as if the renter wanted a two bedroom at OKW and something happened, David's could put them into a two bedroom at the Grand Floridian hotel, which would cost quite a bit, and I would be required to pay the difference with no input.


----------



## RNicole1

I’ll be honest, I’ve tried to keep up with this thread but after 2 months and 143 pages, I just can’t.

We have never used DVC for anything in the past and after a friend recommendation, we used David’s to book a trip at the Poly for May 23-30. Of course I don’t think this trip is going to happen, so I have to figure out what happens next. I had planned to use the cash voucher option and rebook for next June but I am so confused. I’ve seen some say not to do that. Can I get an updated opinion on what I should do??? Should I accept the cash credit with David’s and book next June (again at the Poly or GF) or try a chargeback on my Chase Sapphire?


----------



## SageG

RNicole1 said:


> I’ll be honest, I’ve tried to keep up with this thread but after 2 months and 143 pages, I just can’t.
> 
> We have never used DVC for anything in the past and after a friend recommendation, we used David’s to book a trip at the Poly for May 23-30. Of course I don’t think this trip is going to happen, so I have to figure out what happens next. I had planned to use the cash voucher option and rebook for next June but I am so confused. I’ve seen some say not to do that. Can I get an updated opinion on what I should do??? Should I accept the cash credit with David’s and book next June (again at the Poly or GF) or try a chargeback on my Chase Sapphire?


I'm in a similar position (BLT and VGF from 5/21 to 6/1) and used Chase Sapphire Reserve.  My plan is to try the chargeback route first.  If that fails, then I'll accept the voucher from David's as one person noted several pages ago that David's offered them a voucher and then rescinded it due to the chargeback with the understanding that it would be reissued if the credit card company rules in favor of David's.

I've seen no finalized results of chargebacks, either successful or unsuccessful at this point.  A lot of people have filed them and some have heard back that David responded and that the renter was next up to provide evidence as to why the CC company should rule in their favor.


----------



## knockUout

I am an owner that rented points at 10 months for a priority resort in March.  These points were banked from 2018 with an April use year.   In March I was asked by David's to return the 70% payment and cancel the reservation (this was right before the check-in date).  I replied to David's that these points would expire April 1, 2020 which David's knew from the original contract signed.   I inquired if the renters had insurance and never received a reply to that question.   I was asked to not cancel the reservation online because the points would not be allocated properly.   I inquired to the status of the remaining 30% and was told that would need to be used to compensate the renter.  I called DVC and asked about my point status (this was in March).  I was told they would expire April 1, 2020.  I conveyed this to Davids.   The only response was that the 30% would be used to compensate renters.  In April, I reached out to Davids and offered to reschedule for THIS FAMILY once word was received that my points could be used by Oct 1, 2020.  I never received a reply to this offer.

Today I received an email from Davids.   
"We wanted to reach out to you today with regards to the points that were to be used for the ********** that were due to expire at the end of March 2020.  AS you may be aware DVC has released a new policy extending the expiration date of April and June use years......   We would like to extend the opportunity to re-rent these points so that we may continue to offer your guests an amicable solution for their cancelled reservations as well as to provide you with compensation for the 30% balance left owing to you should we successfully re-rent your points.  If you are interested in renting these points please let us know the following information so that we can determine how they apply to the extension. Use year? Points due to expire? Were these points previously banked from 2019 to 2020 use year?  IF you answered yes to the above question, how many points were previously banked from 2018 into 2019?  How many points in total would you like rented?"

I emailed back asking if my original renter was wanting to reschedule. Reply from Davids was that the family received a voucher for 24 months and Davids did not know if my original renter could travel in the available time frame.  "If you are willing to re-rent the points, we will be re-renting the points  to a new guest so that we are able to collect the funds from that new reservation so that we are able to  put the funds towards the ********* (original renter) travel credit."  

What to do??? I have followed this entire thread and I don't anticipate receiving the 30% that I was owed.  This is not a large amount of points. (less than 100).  I thought I would send the renter 1/2 of the money that I had received (the 70%)  from davids in a rather anonymous manner.  The reason for not the entire amount was that these points were booked 10 months prior for a highly desirable location and I would cover my maintenance fees.  "Share the loss"  I have not contacted the renter.  
My business has been shuttered for over six weeks and it appears no govt. assistance is available.  I don't plan on utilizing the points myself that were returned to me.  My thought actually was to see what plan Davids had and if the original family didn't want to reschedule, I would  try to book a reservation and gift a stay to healthcare workers  who took care of Covid patients. (resort stay).   

Advice please.


----------



## knockUout

I am really not comfortable with Davids voucher plan, new contracts, etc. Fool me once.........


----------



## McCrae

knockUout said:


> I am really not comfortable with Davids voucher plan, new contracts, etc. Fool me once.........



It’s cod liver oil time...


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> This is not correct. Credit card companies don't do this to be nice. They have legal obligations which require them to payback their customers if a contracted service is not provided. When reviewing an application for a charge back they make a call on who is correct. if the losing party disagrees they can take the dispute to court.


That is not exactly true,most if not all credit cards have a clause in the contract that you already have agreed to by filling out the application where you surrender your rights to sue them in a court of law. You have agreed to binding arbitration and to use the arborbitor of their choosing .


----------



## CraigInPA

knockUout said:


> I am an owner that rented points at 10 months for a priority resort in March.  These points were banked from 2018 with an April use year.   In March I was asked by David's to return the 70% payment and cancel the reservation (this was right before the check-in date).  I replied to David's that these points would expire April 1, 2020 which David's knew from the original contract signed.   I inquired if the renters had insurance and never received a reply to that question.   I was asked to not cancel the reservation online because the points would not be allocated properly.   I inquired to the status of the remaining 30% and was told that would need to be used to compensate the renter.  I called DVC and asked about my point status (this was in March).  I was told they would expire April 1, 2020.  I conveyed this to Davids.   The only response was that the 30% would be used to compensate renters.  In April, I reached out to Davids and offered to reschedule for THIS FAMILY once word was received that my points could be used by Oct 1, 2020.  I never received a reply to this offer.
> 
> Today I received an email from Davids.
> "We wanted to reach out to you today with regards to the points that were to be used for the ********** that were due to expire at the end of March 2020.  AS you may be aware DVC has released a new policy extending the expiration date of April and June use years......   We would like to extend the opportunity to re-rent these points so that we may continue to offer your guests an amicable solution for their cancelled reservations as well as to provide you with compensation for the 30% balance left owing to you should we successfully re-rent your points.  If you are interested in renting these points please let us know the following information so that we can determine how they apply to the extension. Use year? Points due to expire? Were these points previously banked from 2019 to 2020 use year?  IF you answered yes to the above question, how many points were previously banked from 2018 into 2019?  How many points in total would you like rented?"
> 
> I emailed back asking if my original renter was wanting to reschedule. Reply from Davids was that the family received a voucher for 24 months and Davids did not know if my original renter could travel in the available time frame.  "If you are willing to re-rent the points, we will be re-renting the points  to a new guest so that we are able to collect the funds from that new reservation so that we are able to  put the funds towards the ********* (original renter) travel credit."
> 
> What to do??? I have followed this entire thread and I don't anticipate receiving the 30% that I was owed.  This is not a large amount of points. (less than 100).  I thought I would send the renter 1/2 of the money that I had received (the 70%)  from davids in a rather anonymous manner.  The reason for not the entire amount was that these points were booked 10 months prior for a highly desirable location and I would cover my maintenance fees.  "Share the loss"  I have not contacted the renter.
> My business has been shuttered for over six weeks and it appears no govt. assistance is available.  I don't plan on utilizing the points myself that were returned to me.  My thought actually was to see what plan Davids had and if the original family didn't want to reschedule, I would  try to book a reservation and gift a stay to healthcare workers  who took care of Covid patients. (resort stay).
> 
> Advice please.



Ask yourself this question... 

Am I confident that David's will pay me the 30% after they previously stiffed me on the last reservation?

If you say yes, I'd like to sell you a really nice bridge in New York...


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> That is not exactly true,most if not all credit cards have a clause in the contract that you already have agreed to by filling out the application where you surrender your rights to sue them in a court of law. You have agreed to binding arbitration and to use the arborbitor of their choosing .


 
I am based in the U.K. where no such conditions apply. Fully a Accept that different laws apply depending where you are based. Where do you live?


----------



## disneypharm

DisneyBB said:


> Isn’t that for the credit voucher?  Think if the above happens it falls on the owner to refund.


Well,  I can't imagine the new renter's contract (for new reservations) will omit the above clause.  I assume that David's has learned his lesson and includes it in all renter's new contracts going forward.


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> I am based in the U.K. where no such conditions apply. Fully a Accept that different laws apply depending where you are based. Where do you live?


I do not live in the U.K. so I do not know the language in the credit cards agreements there, but I can tell you that I have cards from 3 major C.C. companies and they all have the same clause for binding arbitration.


----------



## Sandisw

knockUout said:


> I am an owner that rented points at 10 months for a priority resort in March.  These points were banked from 2018 with an April use year.   In March I was asked by David's to return the 70% payment and cancel the reservation (this was right before the check-in date).  I replied to David's that these points would expire April 1, 2020 which David's knew from the original contract signed.   I inquired if the renters had insurance and never received a reply to that question.   I was asked to not cancel the reservation online because the points would not be allocated properly.   I inquired to the status of the remaining 30% and was told that would need to be used to compensate the renter.  I called DVC and asked about my point status (this was in March).  I was told they would expire April 1, 2020.  I conveyed this to Davids.   The only response was that the 30% would be used to compensate renters.  In April, I reached out to Davids and offered to reschedule for THIS FAMILY once word was received that my points could be used by Oct 1, 2020.  I never received a reply to this offer.
> 
> Today I received an email from Davids.
> "We wanted to reach out to you today with regards to the points that were to be used for the ********** that were due to expire at the end of March 2020.  AS you may be aware DVC has released a new policy extending the expiration date of April and June use years......   We would like to extend the opportunity to re-rent these points so that we may continue to offer your guests an amicable solution for their cancelled reservations as well as to provide you with compensation for the 30% balance left owing to you should we successfully re-rent your points.  If you are interested in renting these points please let us know the following information so that we can determine how they apply to the extension. Use year? Points due to expire? Were these points previously banked from 2019 to 2020 use year?  IF you answered yes to the above question, how many points were previously banked from 2018 into 2019?  How many points in total would you like rented?"
> 
> I emailed back asking if my original renter was wanting to reschedule. Reply from Davids was that the family received a voucher for 24 months and Davids did not know if my original renter could travel in the available time frame.  "If you are willing to re-rent the points, we will be re-renting the points  to a new guest so that we are able to collect the funds from that new reservation so that we are able to  put the funds towards the ********* (original renter) travel credit."
> 
> What to do??? I have followed this entire thread and I don't anticipate receiving the 30% that I was owed.  This is not a large amount of points. (less than 100).  I thought I would send the renter 1/2 of the money that I had received (the 70%)  from davids in a rather anonymous manner.  The reason for not the entire amount was that these points were booked 10 months prior for a highly desirable location and I would cover my maintenance fees.  "Share the loss"  I have not contacted the renter.
> My business has been shuttered for over six weeks and it appears no govt. assistance is available.  I don't plan on utilizing the points myself that were returned to me.  My thought actually was to see what plan Davids had and if the original family didn't want to reschedule, I would  try to book a reservation and gift a stay to healthcare workers  who took care of Covid patients. (resort stay).
> 
> Advice please.



Honestly, if it were me, I would simply decline the offer to re rent the points to a different owner unless I was paid the additional 30% before making the new rental as well as the additional $1/point he is now charging the new renters,

If that does not happen, then you believe you have fulfilled your End of the contract and will walk away without the 30%

I would not refund the renter because it sounds like they decided the voucher was better for them.


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> I do not live in the U.K. so I do not know the language in the credit cards agreements there, but I can tell you that I have cards from 3 major C.C. companies and they all have the same clause for binding arbitration.


I don’t doubt you, are you based in the US?


----------



## DisneyBB

disneypharm said:


> Well,  I can't imagine the new renter's contract (for new reservations) will omit the above clause.  I assume that David's has learned his lesson and includes it in all renter's new contracts going forward.


It is in the new owners one that I would have to refund the renter.  Can’t be in both otherwise who is getting the money?


----------



## DisneyBB

knockUout said:


> I am an owner that rented points at 10 months for a priority resort in March.  These points were banked from 2018 with an April use year.   In March I was asked by David's to return the 70% payment and cancel the reservation (this was right before the check-in date).  I replied to David's that these points would expire April 1, 2020 which David's knew from the original contract signed.   I inquired if the renters had insurance and never received a reply to that question.   I was asked to not cancel the reservation online because the points would not be allocated properly.   I inquired to the status of the remaining 30% and was told that would need to be used to compensate the renter.  I called DVC and asked about my point status (this was in March).  I was told they would expire April 1, 2020.  I conveyed this to Davids.   The only response was that the 30% would be used to compensate renters.  In April, I reached out to Davids and offered to reschedule for THIS FAMILY once word was received that my points could be used by Oct 1, 2020.  I never received a reply to this offer.
> 
> Today I received an email from Davids.
> "We wanted to reach out to you today with regards to the points that were to be used for the ********** that were due to expire at the end of March 2020.  AS you may be aware DVC has released a new policy extending the expiration date of April and June use years......   We would like to extend the opportunity to re-rent these points so that we may continue to offer your guests an amicable solution for their cancelled reservations as well as to provide you with compensation for the 30% balance left owing to you should we successfully re-rent your points.  If you are interested in renting these points please let us know the following information so that we can determine how they apply to the extension. Use year? Points due to expire? Were these points previously banked from 2019 to 2020 use year?  IF you answered yes to the above question, how many points were previously banked from 2018 into 2019?  How many points in total would you like rented?"
> 
> I emailed back asking if my original renter was wanting to reschedule. Reply from Davids was that the family received a voucher for 24 months and Davids did not know if my original renter could travel in the available time frame.  "If you are willing to re-rent the points, we will be re-renting the points  to a new guest so that we are able to collect the funds from that new reservation so that we are able to  put the funds towards the ********* (original renter) travel credit."
> 
> What to do??? I have followed this entire thread and I don't anticipate receiving the 30% that I was owed.  This is not a large amount of points. (less than 100).  I thought I would send the renter 1/2 of the money that I had received (the 70%)  from davids in a rather anonymous manner.  The reason for not the entire amount was that these points were booked 10 months prior for a highly desirable location and I would cover my maintenance fees.  "Share the loss"  I have not contacted the renter.
> My business has been shuttered for over six weeks and it appears no govt. assistance is available.  I don't plan on utilizing the points myself that were returned to me.  My thought actually was to see what plan Davids had and if the original family didn't want to reschedule, I would  try to book a reservation and gift a stay to healthcare workers  who took care of Covid patients. (resort stay).
> 
> Advice please.


As it’s already been said don’t refund the renter they have been sorted out.  Def agree with only rebooking if 30% given to you now.  Or I like your idea of gifting the points as you have the 70%


----------



## cmrdgrs

Your post knockUout reinforces for me what I have been saying from the beginning on this thread (and people disagreed with me) -- David does not have good records on the type of points (banked, current UY or borrowed) for each of his owners and how that matched up to his renters.  If he did have these records or could pull reports on this information he wouldn't be asking the following in his email to you:

_If you are interested in renting these points please let us know the following information so that we can determine how they apply to the extension. *Use year? Points due to expire?* *Were these points previously banked from 2019 to 2020 use year?*  IF you answered yes to the above question, how many points were *previously banked from 2018 into 2019?* _

This is just crazy to me!!!!

As for your question -- I agree with Sandisw -- decline the invitation to re-rent and call it a day.  But, they are your points, you should do what you think is best for you.  If you could use the additional 30%, maybe you want to re-rent.  The email does say you will only get paid* IF* they can re-rent the points.


----------



## Dracula

DisneyBB said:


> It is in the new owners one that I would have to refund the renter.  Can’t be in both otherwise who is getting the money?


Can you guess the answer to the question of who gets the money when the owner returns the 70%, and the renter gets nothing? Let me help: starts with a “D”, and ends with a “D”. Inside you can find a bird from ancient Rome. And he also killed Goliath.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Ooh I think I know but I thought we couldn’t use that language in the DIS??


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> Honestly, if it were me, I would simply decline the offer to re rent the points to a different owner unless I was paid the additional 30% before making the new rental as well as the additional $1/point he is now charging the new renters,
> 
> If that does not happen, then you believe you have fulfilled your End of the contract and will walk away without the 30%
> 
> I would not refund the renter because it sounds like they decided the voucher was better for them.


I agree that I would want the 30% upfront. If they tell you they cannot do that because you may not fulfill your end of the deal tell them they are the only ones so far that didn’t hold up their end once already.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

David's said:
			
		

> "If you are willing to re-rent the points, we will be re-renting the points  to a new guest so that we are able to collect the funds from that new reservation so that we are able to put the funds towards the ********* (original renter) travel credit."


Wow.  That seems to be the very definition of a Ponzi scheme.


----------



## AquaDame

I've read some of this thread but not all (144 pages is a lot!) and it seems like the majority here are owners... may I ask, what would you prefer your renters do? 

My husband has almost entirely decided he will not be going on our trip in October* baring a miracle, which makes me wonder if I shouldn't at least ask David's what the status of the points they used for our reservation is. I do not want the owner out anything, but if its easy and their points won't expire... I'd kick myself for not asking. I know October is so far away, but if I do try wouldn't sooner be better? The other option of course is to just eat it and stay home and have no one check in... would our owner get a refund of some kind if we just no show?

*Our debate about it was sparked again today because our Governor announced today that all large gatherings are cancelled through September here. So while Oct 4th seems far away, for all intents and purposes decisions are being made that far out already.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Definition of Ponzi Scheme 
a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors. 
So yes you are correct!


----------



## starry_solo

AquaDame said:


> I've read some of this thread but not all (144 pages is a lot!) and it seems like the majority here are owners... may I ask, what would you prefer your renters do?
> 
> My husband has almost entirely decided he will not be going on our trip in October* baring a miracle, which makes me wonder if I shouldn't at least ask David's what the status of the points they used for our reservation is. I do not want the owner out anything, but if its easy and their points won't expire... I'd kick myself for not asking. I know October is so far away, but if I do try wouldn't sooner be better? The other option of course is to just eat it and stay home and have no one check in... would our owner get a refund of some kind if we just no show?
> 
> *Our debate about it was sparked again today because our Governor announced today that all large gatherings are cancelled through September here. So while Oct 4th seems far away, for all intents and purposes decisions are being made that far out already.



You can ask David's, but they will go with the "no refundable" clause of your original contract (if the resort is open in October).  If you stay home, the owner would still be charged the full points cost unless they found out you didn't check in and could cancel the rest of the reservation, but then those points would be put in holding.

See if they will let you change the name of the guests on the reservation?


----------



## AquaDame

starry_solo said:


> You can ask David's, but they will go with the "no refundable" clause of your original contract (if the resort is open in October).  If you stay home, the owner would still be charged the full points cost unless they found out you didn't check in and could cancel the rest of the reservation, but then those points would be put in holding.
> 
> See if they will let you change the name of the guests on the reservation?



Thanks! With all the chatter about switching reservations for people, including trips after mine, I was not sure what exactly they were doing.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Any Way you wish to slice this - David's is not gaining trust or maintaining trust  - not from Owners nor from Renters - Moving forward I am finding it beyond me to trust anything from him.  This is just my feelings as I am dealing with him as both an Owner and a Renter. I am so DONE! Well I would like to be but sad to say I have signed contracts - and I am an HONEST person who will uphold my end of the contract - and per my written e-mal - I will WAIT to be contacted by David's so I can tell him what I really think of his Voucher and his mistreatment and his plans to change signed contracts without contacting all parties involved.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

AquaDame said:


> Thanks! With all the chatter about switching reservations for people, including trips after mine, I was not sure what exactly they were doing.



I don't think we really know with certainty what they're going to be doing for people with reservations when the resorts/parks are open who just don't want to or can't go. Even though I really dislike their voucher program, I think it would be overly generous to allow guests in those kind of scenarios to cancel and take advantage of it. 

Either way, the only consistent thing here has been inconsistency. You'll just have to see what answer they give to you specifically, as they seem to be willing to move from the party line with some not others, allow more communication and flexibility between some owners/renters than others, etc.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> I've read some of this thread but not all (144 pages is a lot!) and it seems like the majority here are owners... may I ask, what would you prefer your renters do?
> 
> My husband has almost entirely decided he will not be going on our trip in October* baring a miracle, which makes me wonder if I shouldn't at least ask David's what the status of the points they used for our reservation is. I do not want the owner out anything, but if its easy and their points won't expire... I'd kick myself for not asking. I know October is so far away, but if I do try wouldn't sooner be better? The other option of course is to just eat it and stay home and have no one check in... would our owner get a refund of some kind if we just no show?
> 
> *Our debate about it was sparked again today because our Governor announced today that all large gatherings are cancelled through September here. So while Oct 4th seems far away, for all intents and purposes decisions are being made that far out already.



This isn’t meant to be harsh but I have a renter checking in in August and unfortunately, if the resort is open, then I will hold them to the contract, even if they say they don’t want to go.

It will mean the points will be charged anyway, so I will lose them, but expect full payment from Davids,

Now, if Davids decides he wants to do something different for them, then I will forgo my additional 30% to be released from the contract so I can cancel the trip and keep the points as compensation.

If resorts are closed, then I will take a different approach.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DGsAtBLT said:


> _*I don't think we really know with certainty what they're going to be doing for people with reservations when the resorts/parks are open who just don't want to or can't go. Even though I really dislike their voucher program, I think it would be overly generous to allow guests in those kind of scenarios to cancel and take advantage of it.*_
> 
> Either way, the only consistent thing here has been inconsistency. You'll just have to see what answer they give to you specifically, as they seem to be willing to move from the party line with some not others, allow more communication and flexibility between some owners/renters than others, etc.


I've been pretty harsh on David throughout this thread, however on this point, I'd have to agree.  The points don't belong to the broker, and the owner can only extend to a renter what DVC extends to them.  I know as a general rule David does not allow "sub-lets" and owners here have said they wouldn't allow them either, so I'm not sure what would happen, but I don't think it would be "wrong" of David to simply not refund the renter if the park is open, and the renter doesn't travel.


----------



## AquaDame

DGsAtBLT said:


> You'll just have to see what answer they give to you specifically, as they seem to be willing to move from the party line with some not others, allow more communication and flexibility between some owners/renters than others, etc.



Yeah, thats part of why we can't tell whats going on exactly - since I'm not an owner I know nothing really..!



Sandisw said:


> This isn’t meant to be harsh but I have a renter checking in in August and unfortunately, if the resort is open, then I will hold them to the contract, even if they say they don’t want to go.
> 
> It will mean the points will be charged anyway, so I will lose them, but expect full payment from Davids,
> 
> Now, if Davids decides he wants to do something different for them, then I will forgo my additional 30% to be released from the contract so I can cancel the trip and keep the points as compensation.
> 
> If resorts are closed, then I will take a different approach.



I don't read it as harsh at all, as I said, I don't want the owner out anything. I just also don't want to leave money on the table if there is something I should or could be doing, either.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

If resorts are open - renter does not want to go - you should still get your 30% period 
David would hold YOU to the contract and you should hold HIM to it too! 
If he wants to do a side deal that is of no concern to you and your contract with David.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

AquaDame said:


> Yeah, thats part of why we can't tell whats going on exactly - since I'm not an owner I know nothing really..!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't read it as harsh at all, as I said, I don't want the owner out anything. I just also don't want to leave money on the table if there is something I should or could be doing, either.



The worst they can tell you if you ask is no! My guess is the most you'll get if everything is open is David's being willing to contact your owner to see if your trip can be moved (if it works with point expiry and whatnot).


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m not saying he should or should not do these deals 
What I’m saying is we have contracts that are legal binding documents that can’t be tossed willy nilly to suit one party without all parties consent . 
if David honors the contract to the Owner as he should ( I know ) and offers a deal to renter then that is and should be on him NOT the Owner.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Don’t trust that - I offered to move my renter and everyone was so over joyed and then everything disappeared off the face of the Earth now that it is time to rebook them! Radio silence


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m old money not new money - I’m sure that is why !! No ponzi here !!


----------



## AquaDame

I'm sorry this is happening @WDWEPCOT ; I think what you were trying to do was very nice.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you - You know the old saying = no good deed goes unpunished! I was really trying to be decent - but alas it is not working. 
I have had an earful from DH to last me a lifetime!!! haa haa


----------



## SnowW

We had rented points with David’s for a May DW trip. David’s has sent us for review the terms and conditions for the credit they are offering us. We have not agreed to it as of yet.

One question I had was... It states we can also use it for “Cash bookings at Disney owned resorts”... Does this mean we can have David’s book us a non-DVC regular Disney resort room with our credit voucher and not rent DVC points?? If so, would that mean we can get flexibility with our next trip, and can change dates if needed or cancel and get a refund directly from Disney? Sounds too good to be true!




> Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings


----------



## Amymouse13

Honestly if I were an owner I might be sticking by my contract... Was for x renter and when they check in I get 30%... Somewhere above the discussion of what to do to get remaining 30%, think is seems whatever it is isn't in your contract??  By David but letting you complete contract with original renter any other option appears not in the contract??  (Ie book someone else, not get 30%, refund 70%)???  So could he later claim you breached contract even if you did what he asked??


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I will say when I asked David's to check with my Owner to move my rental (not WDW - Aulani ) David's flat refused to even ask the Owner. I requested 3 times - all met with No. I even moved to Manager who was very snotty with me. I will state I was extremely polite with my request (i have them in writing to prove it) . 
Once the hotels closed - I demanded a refund - met with No - went for charge back = all emails used against them. All this going on at same time I was offering to move my renter. Hello?? Yeah they were all for that - but help me out - Oh Heck No they don't do that! What??


----------



## Amymouse13

SnowW said:


> We had rented points with David’s for a May DW trip. David’s has sent us for review the terms and conditions for the credit they are offering us. We have not agreed to it as of yet.
> 
> One question I had was... It states we can also use it for “Cash bookings at Disney owned resorts”... Does this mean we can have David’s book us a non-DVC regular Disney resort room with our credit voucher and not rent DVC points?? If so, would that mean we can get flexibility with our next trip, and can change dates if needed or cancel and get a refund directly from Disney? Sounds too good to be true!



Nope... Your waive cancel, change, pandemic, he only pays deposit...


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Amymouse13 said:


> Honestly if I were an owner I might be sticking by my contract... Was for x renter and when they check in I get 30%... Somewhere above the discussion of what to do to get remaining 30%, think is seems whatever it is isn't in your contract??  By David but letting you complete contract with original renter any other option appears not in the contract??  (Ie book someone else, not get 30%, refund 70%)???  So could he later claim you breached contract even if you did what he asked??


This is WHAT I am thinking in regards to the signed contracts and his ponzi scheme!


----------



## Sandisw

SnowW said:


> We had rented points with David’s for a May DW trip. David’s has sent us for review the terms and conditions for the credit they are offering us. We have not agreed to it as of yet.
> 
> One question I had was... It states we can also use it for “Cash bookings at Disney owned resorts”... Does this mean we can have David’s book us a non-DVC regular Disney resort room with our credit voucher and not rent DVC points?? If so, would that mean we can get flexibility with our next trip, and can change dates if needed or cancel and get a refund directly from Disney? Sounds too good to be true!



He will be booking the Disney resorts for you, but sent an email to another person that stated you will be charged rack rate and won’t be eligible for any special discounts offered by Disney,

The only benefit to this over a points rental, to be honest, is that it will be easier to find a room fasters dealing with Disney resorts,  

But, in terms of anything else, you won’t be getting any of the benefits of being a cash guest using his voucher.


----------



## fancymouse

disneypharm said:


> Not really!!  Although the first renter's contract states that no accommodation, you get a refund, the new contracts has the following new clause:
> "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."  So, no it is not safer!!



This sounds like it is for the credit voucher? I was referring to the new contracts. The poster below, Donna, mentioned what the new wording implies. I guess it’s good for renters, but seems awful for owners. I would be worried too! 



Donna M said:


> Yes! The new contract sure scares me off. There's a section that says the owner will need to pay additional money if the initial unit is no longer available, and David gets to choose the replacement.  I look at that as if the renter wanted a two bedroom at OKW and something happened, David's could put them into a two bedroom at the Grand Floridian hotel, which would cost quite a bit, and I would be required to pay the difference with no input.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Well I know one thing - I am NOT doing another contract with them EVER again as an Owner or a Renter! Amen ! Come heck or high water - I can't say what DH said but you get the general idea. Stick a fork in me I am DONE! He is just to shady for me! I will gift my points in the future if I can't use them and Hawaii is just not in my future.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

WDWEPCOT said:


> Well I know one thing - I am NOT doing another contract with them EVER again as an Owner or a Renter! Amen ! Come heck or high water - I can't say what DH said but you get the general idea. Stick a fork in me I am DONE! He is just to shady for me! I will gift my points in the future if I can't use them and Hawaii is just not in my future.



Yup. Our renting days are done.

Although I guess never say never, if he wants to drop prices to oh I don't know, $1 per point I may take the gamble.


----------



## disneypharm

SnowW said:


> We had rented points with David’s for a May DW trip. David’s has sent us for review the terms and conditions for the credit they are offering us. We have not agreed to it as of yet.
> 
> One question I had was... It states we can also use it for “Cash bookings at Disney owned resorts”... Does this mean we can have David’s book us a non-DVC regular Disney resort room with our credit voucher and not rent DVC points?? If so, would that mean *we can get flexibility with our next trip, and can change dates if needed or cancel and get a refund directly from Disney*? Sounds too good to be true!


No, you can't.  From the contract for voucher "this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."


----------



## WDWEPCOT

As good as that may sound I could not take listening to DH if God forbid something went wrong so I’m going to have to go with never 
BUT you know that old saying - never say never but I’m not saying it DH is so here we are !!


----------



## Bearval

fancymouse said:


> This sounds like it is for the credit voucher? I was referring to the new contracts. The poster below, Donna, mentioned what the new wording implies. I guess it’s good for renters, but seems awful for owners. I would be worried too!


This problem belongs to the to the rental agency for a flawed contract.   There are four parts to a contract for it to be valid, Offer, Acceptance, Agreement and Consideration.    IMHO it is the Consideration  portion of the original contracts that is causing the issue .   Consideration is the act of giving compensation for being provided with a service or item in return.   Since the Renter nor the  Owner violated the contract they both need to be made whole.  The renter paid and did not receive compensation and the Owner did not cancel so according to the contact as written they are still entitled to the funds.  Ambiguity in a contract  goes against the writer/provider of the contract which in this case is the rental agency.   This may be why  no one so far has posted that they were notified by the rental agency that if they do not return the funds that the rental agency  would seek legal action to force a return since they may have already been advised they most likely would lose.


----------



## laserpastry

AquaDame said:


> I've read some of this thread but not all (144 pages is a lot!) and it seems like the majority here are owners... may I ask, what would you prefer your renters do?
> 
> My husband has almost entirely decided he will not be going on our trip in October* baring a miracle, which makes me wonder if I shouldn't at least ask David's what the status of the points they used for our reservation is. I do not want the owner out anything, but if its easy and their points won't expire... I'd kick myself for not asking. I know October is so far away, but if I do try wouldn't sooner be better? The other option of course is to just eat it and stay home and have no one check in... would our owner get a refund of some kind if we just no show?
> 
> *Our debate about it was sparked again today because our Governor announced today that all large gatherings are cancelled through September here. So while Oct 4th seems far away, for all intents and purposes decisions are being made that far out already.




Since my husband and my children have high-risk health issues, we have pretty much decided, short of a miracle, that we are not going in November as well.  I already reached out to David's to see if he was willing to contact the owner to ask if they were willing/able to do anything, while understanding that we were the ones cancelling, so we were not entitled to any accommodation.  We just thought that if the owner was able to re-rent the points to someone who could use them, then it would be great if they didn't go to waste.  David's refused to even ask the owner.  So, just a head's up.


----------



## Marionnette

laserpastry said:


> Since my husband and my children have high-risk health issues, we have pretty much decided, short of a miracle, that we are not going in November as well.  I already reached out to David's to see if he was willing to contact the owner to ask if they were willing/able to do anything, while understanding that we were the ones cancelling, so we were not entitled to any accommodation.  We just thought that if the owner was able to re-rent the points to someone who could use them, then it would be great if they didn't go to waste.  David's refused to even ask the owner.  So, just a head's up.


So much for “work[ing] from your heart”, which is what they are asking owners to do. I guess that street only runs in one direction.


----------



## fancymouse

Bearval said:


> This problem belongs to the to the rental agency for a flawed contract.   There are four pats to a contract for it to be valid, Offer, Acceptance, Agreement and Consideration.    IMHO it is the Consideration  portion of the original contracts that is causing the issue .   Consideration is the act of giving compensation for being provided with a service or item in return.   Since the Renter nor the  Owner violated the contract they both need to be made whole.  The renter paid and did not receive compensation and the Owner did not cancel so according to the contact as written they are still entitled to the funds.  Ambiguity in a contract  goes against the writer/provider of the contract which in this case is the rental agency.   This may be why  no one so far has posted that they were notified by the rental agency that if they do not return the funds that the rental agency  would seek legal action to force a return since they may have already been advised they most likely would lose.


Yes, I can’t belive how vague the original contracts are. I mean I live in Florida and hurricanes were on my mind when I signed the contract. There was no mention so I just kind of brushed it aside, but honestly in the back of my mind I assumed I would get money back in that scernario. I understood if _I _cancelled I would get no money back, but at the time I didn’t fully understand the business model. Now I see the problem with that assumption.


----------



## kmermaid

laserpastry said:


> Since my husband and my children have high-risk health issues, we have pretty much decided, short of a miracle, that we are not going in November as well.  I already reached out to David's to see if he was willing to contact the owner to ask if they were willing/able to do anything, while understanding that we were the ones cancelling, so we were not entitled to any accommodation.  We just thought that if the owner was able to re-rent the points to someone who could use them, then it would be great if they didn't go to waste.  David's refused to even ask the owner.  So, just a head's up.


I'm an owner who contracted to with David's to set up a November rental for a family.  I have reached out twice to David's to ask the renter if they would like to reschedule say for spring break.  The family booked the reservation at the 11 month mark for a high demand time (Thanksgiving).  On my first reach out Davids said no they are too busy working with those already effected (though they answer my emails within minutes).  The second time I stated my reason thinking the family can only travel on holidays or might be in better financial place in the spring.  They replied that the family has not reached out to them so thanks for my concern but no they are not contacting them.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Same crap they told me about my renter funny thing my renter was wanting to rebook - Shocking news David is not being upfront with Renters or Owners - it is Called  - they do not speak the truth - they don’t seem to care about all those customers they currently have in keeping them for the future and on that note I say - mission accomplished ! On that note they hit the mark!


----------



## disneykins

Sandisw said:


> This isn’t meant to be harsh but I have a renter checking in in August and unfortunately, if the resort is open, then I will hold them to the contract, even if they say they don’t want to go.
> 
> It will mean the points will be charged anyway, so I will lose them, but expect full payment from Davids,
> 
> Now, if Davids decides he wants to do something different for them, then I will forgo my additional 30% to be released from the contract so I can cancel the trip and keep the points as compensation.
> 
> If resorts are closed, then I will take a different approach.


I am in the same position with an October rental (I am an owner). I agree with your decision to hold them to the contract if the resort is open and I would expect my 30%. It would be the same situation as if Covid never happened.
If Davids wants to do something different with them and you forgo your additional 30%, you would keep the points as compensation, would you also keep the 70% you already received. It seems, if you give Davids the 70% back you are going above and beyond, going to a lot of trouble to held David out when he's doing nothing to help you.


----------



## banzai75

disneykins said:


> I am in the same position with an October rental (I am an owner). I agree with your decision to hold them to the contract if the resort is open and I would expect my 30%. It would be the same situation as if Covid never happened.
> If Davids wants to do something different with them and you forgo your additional 30%, you would keep the points as compensation, would you also keep the 70% you already received. It seems, if you give Davids the 70% back you are going above and beyond, going to a lot of trouble to held David out when he's doing nothing to help you.



As a renter, if the resorts were open I wouldn't expect anything different from the owner.  If I didn't want to go, than that would be my choice.

However, I would approach David, and ask for communication to the owner if there was anything possible I could do.  I would expect at least David try to communicate with them on my behalf and if the owner says no then I would accept that.


----------



## VeroGuy

banzai75 said:


> As a renter, if the resorts were open I wouldn't expect anything different from the owner.  If I didn't want to go, than that would be my choice.
> 
> However, I would approach David, and ask for communication to the owner if there was anything possible I could do.  I would expect at least David try to communicate with them on my behalf and if the owner says no then I would accept that.


As a renter, I agree with you completely.  That was the risk I assumed when I signed the contract.


----------



## laserpastry

banzai75 said:


> As a renter, if the resorts were open I wouldn't expect anything different from the owner.  If I didn't want to go, than that would be my choice.
> 
> However, I would approach David, and ask for communication to the owner if there was anything possible I could do.  I would expect at least David try to communicate with them on my behalf and if the owner says no then I would accept that.


 
Agreed.


----------



## DisneyBB

kmermaid said:


> I'm an owner who contracted to with David's to set up a November rental for a family.  I have reached out twice to David's to ask the renter if they would like to reschedule say for spring break.  The family booked the reservation at the 11 month mark for a high demand time (Thanksgiving).  On my first reach out Davids said no they are too busy working with those already effected (though they answer my emails within minutes).  The second time I stated my reason thinking the family can only travel on holidays or might be in better financial place in the spring.  They replied that the family has not reached out to them so thanks for my concern but no they are not contacting them.


It seems to be mixed replies from David’s.  I reached out because my banking deadline was approaching and I was worried about my renters.  They replied and said they would contact them.  Maybe because my points were expiring they felt it was a good idea to contact them.  The other thing I said to them was if they were to busy could I email them myself to enquire about whether they would like to change.  Try asking if you can do that?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

DisneyBB said:


> It seems to be mixed replies from David’s.  I reached out because my banking deadline was approaching and I was worried about my renters.  They replied and said they would contact them.  Maybe because my points were expiring they felt it was a good idea to contact them.  The other thing I said to them was if they were to busy could I email them myself to enquire about whether they would like to change.  Try asking if you can do that?


This is pretty much what I tried, but it took a couple of weeks


----------



## Krandor

Bowen Family said:


> Agreed. Visa also told me we couldn’t start a claim until after our check-in date, which for us was this coming weekend ☹.
> 
> I’ve left the door open to David’s to work with me on changes to the credit terms, which IMHO no renter should ever accept as offered, but haven’t had a response back. So come Monday next week, we’ll probably start both processes.



I'll be real interested to hear the outcome and I think it is good that you are in a posittion to be able to take it to court.  There has been a lot of debate on here about what the contracts mean and it would be real interesting to see an actual judge make a determination on it.  Though I'm not sure if David would want to run the risk of an adverse judgement.   Wouldn't be shocked if he decides to settle if you do start the process.


----------



## Disaseny

Update on my chargeback: Chase came back and approved the credit. I received my letter this afternoon. Dispute resolved, credit approved. Mind you my dispute was less than 1k, so I don't know if he even fought it. I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond. I did not have to send anything.


----------



## starry_solo

Disaseny said:


> Update on my chargeback: Chase came back and approved the credit. I received my letter this afternoon. Dispute resolved, credit approved. Mind you my dispute was less than 1k, so I don't know if he even fought it. I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond. I did not have to send anything.



Wouldn't you have started earlier than April 21st?  Isn't a billing cycle approximately 30 days?


----------



## Disaseny

I called Chase on 4/21 and they told me he had two billing cycles to respond. I am guessing since the credit is approved, he did not try to fight it.


----------



## Dracula

Disaseny said:


> Update on my chargeback: Chase came back and approved the credit. I received my letter this afternoon. Dispute resolved, credit approved. Mind you my dispute was less than 1k, so I don't know if he even fought it. I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond. I did not have to send anything.


Thank you for the update. Unfortunately for David, if a significant number of renters pursue chargebacks rather than accept vouchers, and these chargebacks all get approved, it would be next to impossible to avoid bankruptcy.

Assuming the average booking horizon is 7.5 months, and the resorts would be closed for 2.5 months - this means 1/3 of David’s book of reservations would have been canceled. Since he only holds in cash ~25% of the funds paid by the renter (the money meant for the owners at check-in time), assuming 80% of renters file for chargebacks, basically all this money would be gone to reimburse renters.

A resort closure of 4 months would be certain bankruptcy. I would think David really really hopes the resorts would open really really soon, no matter what the parks do.


----------



## disneypharm

I would have definitely considered a voucher to save his business if he handled this mess better.   His new contracts are so bad for owners and renters that there is no choice but chargebacks.   I had several things cancelled (eg, shows, musicals, tickets etc..) because of this pandemic and I either donated the funds back to the nonprofit or small businesses or took the voucher, but after the way David's handled everything, I refuse to do business with them.


----------



## dragonflymom

Disaseny said:


> I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond.



Does this mean David's has two billing cycles starting from 4/21 to respond, meaning he can still respond up through approximately end of June if he has not responded already?  It would be interesting to know if David's had responded between 4/21 and 5/8, or whether Chase looked at it as fairly open-and-shut and decided in your favor.


----------



## Disaseny

dragonflymom said:


> Does this mean David's has two billing cycles starting from 4/21 to respond, meaning he can still respond up through approximately end of June if he has not responded already?  It would be interesting to know if David's had responded between 4/21 and 5/8, or whether Chase looked at it as fairly open-and-shut and decided in your favor.


Yes, he had two billing cycles to respond. Not sure if he did and decided not to fight it or like you said Chase decided it was open and shut.


----------



## Disaseny

disneypharm said:


> I would have definitely considered a voucher to save his business if he handled this mess better.   His new contracts are so bad for owners and renters that there is no choice but chargebacks.   I had several things cancelled (eg, shows, musicals, tickets etc..) because of this pandemic and I either donated the funds back to the nonprofit or small businesses or took the voucher, but after the way David's handled everything, I refuse to do business with them.


I was on the same thought on the vouchers until I saw the terms of the credit. I talked with a friend of mine who works with lots of terms and conditions daily, and they said no way would they accept them.


----------



## izzy

On the Cruise Critic website numerous people are doing chargebacks against Princess because of how long the refunds are taking. It was mentioned that when a chargeback is filed that the merchant is also hit with a chargeback fee by the bank.  So, that’s even more money leaving David’s coffers. I really don’t see how he’s going to dig his business out of this overall mess. You can’t have both renters and owners mad at you for how the current situation is being handled as well as being distrustful of the new contract terms and conditions.


----------



## 3babiesmom

I am a renter and my trip was scheduled for May 26-Jun 1.  So the "voucher" David is offering, is that my only option?

I am perfectly happy with postponing my trip, I just don't want to lose all my money and David's is making me nervous.


----------



## banzai75

3babiesmom said:


> I am a renter and my trip was scheduled for May 26-Jun 1.  So the "voucher" David is offering, is that my only option?


You can try a chargeback on your CC once your check in comes and the resort is still closed.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

While  I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David.  I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.

David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down.  Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate.  But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips.  It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted.  This is not to excuse David but it is reality.  Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat.  I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.

I don't see evil motive here.  I agree with results and path to them.


----------



## TheWheel

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> While  I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David.  I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.
> 
> David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down.  Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate.  But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips.  It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted.  This is not to excuse David but it is reality.  Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat.  I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.
> 
> I don't see evil motive here.  I agree with results and path to them.


I don't think most of us see evil here. I think what we do see is someone who through their own fault of not having properly designed contracts has essentially left both owners and renters believing (rightfully IMHO) they are due either refunds or final payments at check in date.
Poor contracts and all, I believe if managed differently we would have seen both renters and owners be much more willing to work with David's to get to an agreeable position. However, actions in the past few weeks have shown that they / he are much more concerned with their position than they are with either renters or owners. I think most renters and owners wish a positive solution for both sides and would be willing to do what they could within reason to help aid the other side even if they were to suffer some level of loss. What neither side appears to be interested in is watching both parties getting the short end of the stick while David tries to ensure he can still dock his yacht.
The flip flopping and attempts to change the rules as he goes along while trying to maximize his profits and further minimize his risks on the backs of both parties suggests he will be very lucky to come out of this with the business intact which creates further risk and stress to renters and owners alike. So unsurprisingly people believe he should be accountable for that.


----------



## lawboy2001

starry_solo said:


> Wouldn't you have started earlier than April 21st?  Isn't a billing cycle approximately 30 days?



He had 2 billing cycles to respond.  He obviously responded much sooner.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Here is where I disagree.  There are clear lines of change in what David responded with.  My point is that the original response was predictable and fit with the the world David and the rest of knew.  I am new here myself but I don't recall seeing posts on the issues with David's contracts pre C19.  Pretty much everyone seemed ok with David outside his large cut.   Naturally the first response was WAIT!  And clearly David was overwhelmed with nowhere near the people to respond much less resolves issues.   So communications were a giant issue.  Then the issues with the contract that became clear with 20-20 hind sight came into view.  AND after that came the 'owners shut down the resort and caused the problem' and 'contract impossibility'.   

Each of these hind sight times (paradyms)  came with different solutions and answer from David.  The facts changed dramatically from mid March to April to today.  It is easy to say flip flop.  reality is that as facts change and reality emerges responses have to change as well.  Disney closing for 2 weeks and public announcements that it was going to be open by April 1 or Easter for sure mattered.  The response for a 2 week shut down and a 2.5 month shuts are completely different.

Finally and without taking a side you can claim David is soley responsible for the contract issues.  Yet you have a motive to take this position don't  you?  For how many years and how many hundreds of thousands of points was the contract fine and not objected to?



TheWheel said:


> I don't think most of us see evil here*. I think what we do see is someone who through their own fault of not having properly designed contracts* has essentially left both owners and renters believing (rightfully IMHO) they are due either refunds or final payments at check in date.
> Poor contracts and all, I believe if managed differently we would have seen both renters and owners be much more willing to work with David's to get to an agreeable position. However, actions in the past few weeks have shown that they / he are much more concerned with their position than they are with either renters or owners. I think most renters and owners wish a positive solution for both sides and would be willing to do what they could within reason to help aid the other side even if they were to suffer some level of loss. What neither side appears to be interested in is watching both parties getting the short end of the stick while David tries to ensure he can still dock his yacht.
> The *flip flopping and attempts to change the rules* as he goes along while trying to maximize his profits and further minimize his risks on the backs of both parties suggests he will be very lucky to come out of this with the business intact which creates further risk and stress to renters and owners alike. So unsurprisingly people believe he should be accountable for that.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

The wheel - well stated !!


----------



## DGsAtBLT

I don’t think David or any of his employees are evil. I don’t think they are intentionally trying to screw us.

I think they are looking out for their survival right now above all, and as such none of the decisions being made are in my best interest as a renter, or in owners best interests. They have past the point of satisfying customers (which is owners and renters), IMO.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> While  I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David.  I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.
> 
> David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down.  Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate.  But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips.  It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted.  This is not to excuse David but it is reality.  Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat.  I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.
> 
> I don't see evil motive here.  I agree with results and path to them.



I don’t think evil is the way I describe this, but rather him deciding to make decisions only with his interests in mind.

He could have allowed renters and owners to connect to work things out if at all possible,  This would have reduced charge backs, reduced the number of renters needing vouchers, and kept owners and renters feeling like everyone was working together.

As an owner with a rental, I have lost confidence in the way he does business   But, the good thing is we all get to decide how to evaluate his actions and whether we want to continue working with him after the choices he has made during this situation.


----------



## lovethesun12

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> While  I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David.  I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.
> 
> David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down.  Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate.  But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips.  It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted.  This is not to excuse David but it is reality.  Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat.  I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.
> 
> I don't see evil motive here.  I agree with results and path to them.


Yes. I would like to add that here there was/is guaranteed access to interest free emergency loans for some businesses, and also a current program in place for loans of up to 6 million for med/large businesses. 

Those saying he will go bankrupt are just making assumptions. I'm not saying it won't happen, but all travel related businesses are probably in for rough times. Some will suffer through and some won't.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

As a business in order to keep your customers and your revenue you follow your word - it is your good will - without going into all the accounting rules etc 
Go back to the beginning of this thread and read what David posted on His websites stating he Would work on a case by case basis - then read this Whole thread for example after example of him changing his his tune to the same people time and again 
Any business who I have dealt with who were awesome for years does not earn a free pass to screw me over just because they decided to look out for their own interest in a bad time and not their customers


----------



## WanderlustinFP

I would have no issues with a credit, but his new terms & conditions are more like limitations that decrease the value of my current rental agreement. I would have no recourse if he decided to change the value of the credit in any way.


----------



## Dracula

lovethesun12 said:


> Yes. I would like to add that here there was/is guaranteed access to interest free emergency loans for some businesses, and also a current program in place for loans of up to 6 million for med/large businesses.
> 
> Those saying he will go bankrupt are just making assumptions. I'm not saying it won't happen, but all travel related businesses are probably in for rough times. Some will suffer through and some won't.


Please keep in mind David does business under his own name, as a sole proprietorship. Why in the world would he go in the hole up to $6M in order to keep operating? Also, small businesses in Canada can get emergency loans for up to Cdn$40,000 - this is about $30k, probably good for the renters booked on 1/4 of a resort closure day.


----------



## Marionnette

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> While  I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David.  I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.
> 
> David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down.  Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate.  But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips.  It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted.  This is not to excuse David but it is reality.  Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat.  I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.
> 
> I don't see evil motive here.  I agree with results and path to them.


Evil? Self-interested and short-sighted is more like it.

I think I’ve said it before, as a small business owner I know that if you have good business practices, and make your customer happy, they will tell 2-5 people how wonderful you are. Piss off just one customer and they will tell the whole internet about your poor treatment of them!


----------



## Bearval

Marionnette said:


> Evil? Self-interested and short-sighted is more like it.
> 
> I think I’ve said it before, as a small business owner I know that if you have good business practices, and make your customer happy, they will tell 2-5 people how wonderful you are. Piss off just one customer and they will tell the whole internet about your poor treatment of them!


He is going to need a lot of owners to sign the new convoluted contracts with him for his vouchers to work.  I hope they are printed out on toilet paper so they will at least be useful.


----------



## lovethesun12

Dracula said:


> Please keep in mind David does business under his own name, as a sole proprietorship. Why in the world would he go in the hole up to $6M in order to keep operating? Also, small businesses in Canada can get emergency loans for up to Cdn$40,000 - this is about $30k, probably good for the renters booked on 1/4 of a resort closure day.


I don't think he would take a loan for that much; that just happens to be the max amount available so I quoted it instead of some random number because I don't know what he needs. Just that there is access.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Case by case for 2 weeks is completely and totally different from case by case to a world where it is EVERYONE for 2.5 months.  Go back to the beginning of the threat and see how people were mad at Disney for the Disney response.

Fixing 14 days of bookings as was originally thought is just not the same.  As more is learned responses have to change. Disney changed, David changed restaurants changed.  the government changed

On March 14 there were 200 some deaths.  The public was being reassured the worst was over.  Businesses have to plan and did.  That March 14 world did not exist nor did it come close to existing and all planning for it was wrong.  Of course if you are expecting David to know more and be more accurate than the US government and Disney then we have different worlds.

I would certainly be interested to find out the name of the 'good will' business that went bankrupt to stand by a contract that did not exist.  

The fact is the best argument on the contract is not 2nd guessing as is so easy to do.  It is that the contract became impossible to perform and that means something.  It is not a question of 'who can go to court' or 'where do you sue'.





WDWEPCOT said:


> As a business in order to keep your customers and your revenue you follow your word - it is your good will - without going into all the accounting rules etc
> Go back to the beginning of this thread and read what David posted on His websites stating he Would work on a case by case basis - then read this Whole thread for example after example of him changing his his tune to the same people time and again
> Any business who I have dealt with who were awesome for years does not earn a free pass to screw me over just because they decided to look out for their own interest in a bad time and not their customers


----------



## GoingSince1990

Disaseny said:


> Update on my chargeback: Chase came back and approved the credit. I received my letter this afternoon. Dispute resolved, credit approved. Mind you my dispute was less than 1k, so I don't know if he even fought it. I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond. I did not have to send anything.


Having had every dispute I have ever filed with a CC company approved, I did expect this outcome. My understanding of the dispute process is that the credit card company will ask the questions:
1. Did you pay for goods or a service?
2. Were the goods, or the service, supplied?
3. If the first answer is "yes" and the second answer is "no", the dispute is resolved in the cardholder's favor, with any gray areas interpreted to favor the cardholder.
One message from this is that it is great to pay for things by credit card, because of this extra protection.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

If the contracts are frustrated then everyone should be put back where they were before / renters receive refunds / owners receive points - period


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Yes they should.  Bu that was also impossible because of banking rules.  There was no one size fits all solution.  There was a finger and a hole in the dyke.  Then more holes starting popping through.



WDWEPCOT said:


> If the contracts are frustrated then everyone should be put back where they were before / renters receive refunds / owners receive points - period


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Yes they should.  Bu that was also impossible because of banking rules.  There was no one size fits all solution.  There was a finger and a hole in the dyke.  Then more holes starting popping through.



Correct, but Davids decided to make it one size fits all when he began refusing to let owners who could help renters work it out, which IMO, would have been seen as a much better move than what he did.

Like I said, I will not work with him again, and at this point, will refuse anything beyond what is in my contract,,,thst means, no rebooking and no refunding,


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> Correct, but Davids decided to make it one size fits all when he began refusing to let owners who could help renters work it out, which IMO, would have been seen as a much better move than what he did.
> 
> Like I said, I will not work with him again, and at this point, will refuse anything beyond what is in my contract,,,thst means, no rebooking and no refunding,


I believe it would be better stated that his decisions were based upon the magic slipper only being the right size to fit his foot.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I agree - this situation is fluid and like it it not it needs to be handled on case by case basis by David’s


----------



## CanadaDisney05

I haven't read all 148 pages, but what did the other rental companies do?

They way I see it, there is no good solution.

Option 1) owner gives money back to renter.  Owner's points expire.  Owner is pissed.

Option 2) owner keeps 70% then David gives additional 30% on check in date.  Renter is pissed.

3) owner keeps 100%, and David gives renter back 100%.  David (as the middle man), ends up covering the entire cost.  Customers are happy.  David takes a massive loss.  (Even a company as large as Disney would never do this.  Disney wasn't exactly giving out free hotel rooms to those DVC members who's points expired.  Their solution was to take inventory away from those who's points didn't expire).

4) Do what he's doing.  Owner keeps 70%.  Renter gets a 100% credit.  David keeps 30%.  It's not perfect for anyone.  David is still taking a loss.  He's using the 30% to offset the 100% credits.  Of course, some won't get used, and he's spreading the negative cash flow over a longer period of time.

None of the solutions are good.  I don't think its as simple as just letting owner and renter hash things out for a multitude of reasons such as.

1) privacy laws.
2) giving customers the opportunity to gain confidence that they won't need his service in the future. Etc....


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I haven't read all 148 pages, but what did the other rental companies do?
> 
> They way I see it, there is no good solution.
> 
> Option 1) owner gives money back to renter.  Owner's points expire.  Owner is pissed.
> 
> Option 2) owner keeps 70% then David gives additional 30% on check in date.  Renter is pissed.
> 
> 3) owner keeps 100%, and David gives renter back 100%.  David (as the middle man), ends up covering the entire cost.  Customers are happy.  David takes a massive loss.  (Even a company as large as Disney would never do this.  Disney wasn't exactly giving out free hotel rooms to those DVC members who's points expired.  Their solution was to take inventory away from those who's points didn't expire).
> 
> 4) Do what he's doing.  Owner keeps 70%.  Renter gets a 100% credit.  David keeps 30%.  It's not perfect for anyone.  David is still taking a loss.  He's using the 30% to offset the 100% credits.  Of course, some won't get used, and he's spreading the negative cash flow over a longer period of time.
> 
> None of the solutions are good.  I don't think its as simple as just letting owner and renter hash things out for a multitude of reasons such as.
> 
> 1) privacy laws.
> 2) giving customers the opportunity to gain confidence that they won't need his service in the future. Etc....


Essentially Disney is doing number 3  giving the renter back 100% and taking a 100% loss since there is no 3rd party .  Davids would be the in the same boat if they were owners.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Sandisw said:


> Correct, but Davids decided to make it one size fits all when he began refusing to let owners who could help renters work it out, which IMO, would have been seen as a much better move than what he did.
> 
> Like I said, I will not work with him again, and at this point, will refuse anything beyond what is in my contract,,,thst means, no rebooking and no refunding,



I am certainly not advocating anyone sign with David again or for the first time.  Maybe I have not been clear.  When the issues started no business would allow the parties to the contract try and change the contract obligations, change the requirements and obligations without the business being present.  It just would not happen.
In addition solving the immediate 2 week problem, which was beyond them, to allow the other parties outside that 2 week window to move into the future is just a waste of time.  Likewise with simply cancelling.  David did not have enough time.  to allow a renter and owner to agree to change a reservation, perhaps for different points from April 3 to May 12 would have simply wasted everyone's time.  If David allowed one set of owner/renter to circumvent the contract it could have been the end to David.  For all the faults with David that exist all of them would be far worse if David were in bankruptcy.

The problems with the contract seem to all be 20 20 from the future looking back.  Can anyone expect a business to immediately reject their own contract that had worked well for years and years and tens of thousands of transaction?

Disney cash sales were directly with purchasers and refunded.  It can not be compared to a 3rd party services contract.  It is different.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I am certainly not advocating anyone sign with David again or for the first time.  Maybe I have not been clear.  When the issues started no business would allow the parties to the contract try and change the contract obligations, change the requirements and obligations without the business being present.  It just would not happen.
> In addition solving the immediate 2 week problem, which was beyond them, to allow the other parties outside that 2 week window to move into the future is just a waste of time.  Likewise with simply cancelling.  David did not have enough time.  to allow a renter and owner to agree to change a reservation, perhaps for different points from April 3 to May 12 would have simply wasted everyone's time.  If David allowed one set of owner/renter to circumvent the contract it could have been the end to David.  For all the faults with David that exist all of them would be far worse if David were in bankruptcy.
> 
> The problems with the contract seem to all be 20 20 from the future looking back.  Can anyone expect a business to immediately reject their own contract that had worked well for years and years and tens of thousands of transaction?
> 
> Disney cash sales were directly with purchasers and refunded.  It can not be compared to a 3rd party services contract.  It is different.



I just don’t agree he was forced  to handle it this way. Very simple emails to all owners who had renters to try and reach out if they had points that could be rescheduled,

Remember, from the very beginning he asked for changes to the contract...No one is saying he should have refunded every renter,  I am not even sure it’s because of his contracts,

I am saying that he had a way to limit the number of frustrated renters and owners and save his business at the same time.  His choice, IMO, doesn’t do that.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Sandisw said:


> I just don’t agree he was forced  to handle it this way. Very simple emails to all owners who had renters to try and reach out if they had points that could be rescheduled,
> 
> Remember, from the very beginning he asked for changes to the contract...No one is saying he should have refunded every renter,  I am not even sure it’s because of his contracts,
> 
> I am saying that he had a way to limit the number of frustrated renters and owners and save his business at the same time.  His choice, IMO, doesn’t do that.


I am totally on board with the lack of communication.  From where I sit it seems child's play to be able to send group emails to every one at the beginning.  But I am not an IT person and I have no idea of the cost or requirements from this.  I just know how to do it and have the ability to take advantage of it.  I have no idea if the software  for a small company like David would have this.  I don't recall seeing any of the similar companies did a better job of communications.

My daughter works for a major public university  in IL.  When she wants to group email she is required to submit the email and all attachments for review a week in advance.  then no changes.  This is unthinkable to me because my software does all this on its own including picking the groups if i want

I also don't have any idea what kind of volume is done.  I would only guess the first days were a nightmare for them to try and respond to, hence the finger and dyke reference.

It does seem like hiring someone new to only send FYI letters to owner/renters could have been done.  I am not offering this as a text book management solution.  I am only saying this is what actually happens and that I don't think it was originally a question to David or how David survives.  I think it was panic.


----------



## spinchy

Speaking as a renter, I'm understanding of his need to change directions and some degree of uncertainty during all of this.  In the end, I'd personally be fine with the voucher if he hadn't A) raised his prices since I bought and B) added all the new conditions.   I respect his need to navigate some pretty difficult financial waters here, but I'm going to try the charge back route simply because of those factors.   "Here's a voucher that buys you less than what you had and, if Covid is still around next time, you have to sign off on me keeping all of your money and giving you nothing." 
If he'd offered me a voucher for an equivalent number of premium points, and not with all the new conditions I'd be happy to go along with the voucher plan.


----------



## Bearval

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I am certainly not advocating anyone sign with David again or for the first time.  Maybe I have not been clear.  When the issues started no business would allow the parties to the contract try and change the contract obligations, change the requirements and obligations without the business being present.  It just would not happen.
> In addition solving the immediate 2 week problem, which was beyond them, to allow the other parties outside that 2 week window to move into the future is just a waste of time.  Likewise with simply cancelling.  David did not have enough time.  to allow a renter and owner to agree to change a reservation, perhaps for different points from April 3 to May 12 would have simply wasted everyone's time.  If David allowed one set of owner/renter to circumvent the contract it could have been the end to David.  For all the faults with David that exist all of them would be far worse if David were in bankruptcy.
> 
> The problems with the contract seem to all be 20 20 from the future looking back.  Can anyone expect a business to immediately reject their own contract that had worked well for years and years and tens of thousands of transaction?
> 
> Disney cash sales were directly with purchasers and refunded.  It can not be compared to a 3rd party services contract.  It is different.


If the company went into bankruptcy the renters would  be better off if they paid with a credit card.


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> If the contracts are frustrated then everyone should be put back where they were before / renters receive refunds / owners receive points - period


What i have noticed by looking at other sites that rent DVC points is that all of the contracts in the fine print now stick it to the owners of the points for making the renters whole by having to refund the money they received if an event like this happens again. I would be willing to bet this is being driven by the credit cards companies so that they are not on the hook for paying out for credit cards protection to their customers and if a business wants to accept C.C.s then they have to have this language in the contract.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> I just don’t agree he was forced  to handle it this way. Very simple emails to all owners who had renters to try and reach out if they had points that could be rescheduled,



If he does this, he basically demonstrates that the value of his service is essentially nil.  That is not a strong marketing strategy


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Chase stated you can’t offer something like a hotel room take the money and not receive hotel room and not receive a refund - it is not allowed an it is a chargeback


----------



## cm8

Bearval said:


> What i have noticed by looking at other sites that rent DVC points is that all of the contracts in the fine print now stick it to the owners of the points for making the renters whole by having to refund the money they received if an event like this happens again. I would be willing to bet this is being driven by the credit cards companies so that they are not on the hook for paying out for credit cards protection to their customers and if a business wants to accept C.C.s then they have to have this language in the contract.



If this is in fact true. I hope the Owners will now just rent the points out themselves. Less headaches and you are free to move about the cabin so to speak when it all hits the fan.

As an Owner who rents sans “Intermediary” I  have the ability to meet the needs of my Renters as we both see fit (within the parameters of our terms). I see no use for those types of services to still be around if this is the case. Owners should really look into the rental threads here and read up. I promise you it’s easier than you think! The people are friendly and the competition is fierce! . You won’t regret it! Just make sure to use a contract, and make sure that you can stand by that piece of paper. 

All I know is that you need to be able to honor your word. No one else will ever use you again if you fail to honor the commitment made. Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war


----------



## CanadaDisney05

WDWEPCOT said:


> Chase stated you can’t offer something like a hotel room take the money and not receive hotel room and not receive a refund - it is not allowed an it is a chargeback


I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel.  I am a broker.  I am the middle man.  I agree that the renter's should be made whole.  But I think the responsibility is on the owners.

One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel.  I am a broker.  I am the middle man.  I agree that the renter's should be made whole.  But I think the responsibility is on the owners.
> 
> One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?


He is also the author of the contracts and in litigation the ambiguity of a contract goes against the person who provides the contract. He is stuck and is trying to get people to agree to a new contract with different  language. Also to the best of my knowledge he is not demanding owners return payment received because he really can't since there was no cause in the old contract unless the owner themselves canceled.


----------



## spinchy

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel.  I am a broker.  I am the middle man.  I agree that the renter's should be made whole.  But I think the responsibility is on the owners.
> 
> One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?


He carries the ACTA accreditation right on his website (Association of Canadian Travel Agencies).  Don't think he'd get away with that.   And renters are only being offered the voucher, no refund possible at all is what I was told.  He's using however many of those 70%s he can get his hands on to fund the vouchers I believe.


----------



## Bearval

spinchy said:


> He carries the ACTA accreditation right on his website (Association of Canadian Travel Agencies).  Don't think he'd get away with that.   And renters are only being offered the voucher, no refund possible at all is what I was told.  He's using however many of those 70%s he can get his hands on to fund the vouchers I believe.


I also believe he is setup as a sole proprietary.  If this is true he is fighting to keep from going into personal bankruptcy since all of his personal assets are on the line.


----------



## Sandisw

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel.  I am a broker.  I am the middle man.  I agree that the renter's should be made whole.  But I think the responsibility is on the owners.
> 
> One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?



Broker that accepted the CC payment, so he Is the one who will be responsible for the chargeback.

He then has to go after owners if he wants to via trying to clawback the Paypal payment..

Not seeing how that Is going to help moving forward instill confidence in owners.


----------



## McCrae

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel.  I am a broker.  I am the middle man.  I agree that the renter's should be made whole.  But I think the responsibility is on the owners.
> 
> One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?



If an owner pays back the 70% it goes to David’s, not the renter.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> Broker that accepted the CC payment, so he Is the one who will be responsible for the chargeback.
> 
> He then has to go after owners if he wants to via trying to clawback the Paypal payment..
> 
> Not seeing how that Is going to help moving forward instill confidence in owners.



Paypal won’t accept any charge back from David’s to owners.  He is not covered by PayPal protection.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> Broker that accepted the CC payment, so he Is the one who will be responsible for the chargeback.
> 
> He then has to go after owners if he wants to via trying to clawback the Paypal payment..
> 
> Not seeing how that Is going to help moving forward instill confidence in owners.


The problem with him trying to get PayPal to clawback the funds is that he is going to have to prove he is entitled to it and I don't believe the language in the contracts he used will prove that for him.


----------



## lovethesun12

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I haven't read all 148 pages, but what did the other rental companies do?
> 
> They way I see it, there is no good solution.
> 
> Option 1) owner gives money back to renter.  Owner's points expire.  Owner is pissed.
> 
> Option 2) owner keeps 70% then David gives additional 30% on check in date.  Renter is pissed.
> 
> 3) owner keeps 100%, and David gives renter back 100%.  David (as the middle man), ends up covering the entire cost.  Customers are happy.  David takes a massive loss.  (Even a company as large as Disney would never do this.  Disney wasn't exactly giving out free hotel rooms to those DVC members who's points expired.  Their solution was to take inventory away from those who's points didn't expire).
> 
> 4) Do what he's doing.  Owner keeps 70%.  Renter gets a 100% credit.  David keeps 30%.  It's not perfect for anyone.  David is still taking a loss.  He's using the 30% to offset the 100% credits.  Of course, some won't get used, and he's spreading the negative cash flow over a longer period of time.
> 
> None of the solutions are good.  I don't think its as simple as just letting owner and renter hash things out for a multitude of reasons such as.
> 
> 1) privacy laws.
> 2) giving customers the opportunity to gain confidence that they won't need his service in the future. Etc....


Well based on BBB reviews and forums I found the rental company I used did the same random things as David's except much slower to make a decision to issue credits.


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> Paypal won’t accept any charge back from David’s to owners.  He is not covered by PayPal protection.


PayPal might be getting ready to clawback funds from him for renters who paid with paypal.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Case by case for 2 weeks is completely and totally different from case by case to a world where it is EVERYONE for 2.5 months.  Go back to the beginning of the threat and see how people were mad at Disney for the Disney response.
> 
> Fixing 14 days of bookings as was originally thought is just not the same.  As more is learned responses have to change. Disney changed, David changed restaurants changed.  the government changed
> 
> On March 14 there were 200 some deaths.  The public was being reassured the worst was over.  Businesses have to plan and did.  That March 14 world did not exist nor did it come close to existing and all planning for it was wrong.  Of course if you are expecting David to know more and be more accurate than the US government and Disney then we have different worlds.
> 
> I would certainly be interested to find out the name of the 'good will' business that went bankrupt to stand by a contract that did not exist.
> 
> The fact is the best argument on the contract is not 2nd guessing as is so easy to do.  It is that the contract became impossible to perform and that means something.  It is not a question of 'who can go to court' or 'where do you sue'.



It’s perhaps not a clear as you may think. In the field sports industry it’s common place for no refunds to be given when a trip is cancelled due to an unexpected event.  The no refunds clause is accepted.  David’s no refunds clause could easily be accepted by CC and courts.


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> PayPal might be getting ready to clawback funds from him for renters who paid with paypal.



Davids maybe impacted by this, but not owners unless he used a credit card to pay them. Pay Pal  protection is clear that it doesnt cover real estate related transactions. On this thread an owner who rented privately stated paypal rejected their renters claim against him.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

spinchy said:


> Speaking as a renter, I'm understanding of his need to change directions and some degree of uncertainty during all of this.  In the end, I'd personally be fine with the voucher if he hadn't A) raised his prices since I bought and B) *added all the new conditions*.   I respect his need to navigate some pretty difficult financial waters here, but I'm going to try the charge back route simply because of those factors.   "Here's a voucher that buys you less than what you had and, *if Covid is still around next time, you have to sign off on me keeping all of your money and giving you nothing*."
> If he'd offered me a voucher for an equivalent number of premium points, and not with all the new conditions I'd be happy to go along with the voucher plan.


I'd be a lot more inclined to cut David's some slack if it weren't for those added conditions.  They essentially force the renter to agree to get nothing in the case of another closure.  That's just a ridiculous stipulation IMO and renters are being told "take it or leave it."  You either risk getting nothing with the voucher or you turn down the voucher and get nothing.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

We all understand that the contract was poorly written.  Hindsight is 20-20.  Keep in mind that they are likely limited staff and can't deal with individual negotiations between all the owners and renters.  Other than allowing owner and renter to speak to each other, what blanket policy does everyone suggest these brokers to put out there to deal with the situation?


----------



## Bearval

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I'd be a lot more inclined to cut David's some slack if it weren't for those added conditions.  They essentially force the renter to agree to get nothing in the case of another closure.  That's just a ridiculous stipulation IMO and renters are being told "take it or leave it."  You either risk getting nothing with the voucher or you turn down the voucher and get nothing.


I would demand a refund and not accept the voucher that he is hoping you will. He is counting on people agreeing to the new contract. From what I understand the " no refunds " clause is enforced if the cancelation is caused by the renter and this is clearly not the case.  You cannot agree to new terms a d have a successful chargeback.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> We all understand that the contract was poorly written.  Hindsight is 20-20.  Keep in mind that they are likely limited staff and can't deal with individual negotiations between all the owners and renters.  Other than allowing owner and renter to speak to each other, what blanket policy does everyone suggest these brokers to put out there to deal with the situation?


Also remember he limited the ability of the owners to mitigate their losses by telling them not to cancel.  Some owners at the time they did this still could have canceled and banked their points. (DVC later allowed this to happen anyway) this IMHO was only done for his self interest since the renter would be due a refund and the owner could have salvaged their points but the agency would have not made any commission. He would have been better off telling the owners who wanted to cancel to do so and get the money refunded.


----------



## McCrae

CanadaDisney05 said:


> We all understand that the contract was poorly written.  Hindsight is 20-20.  Keep in mind that they are likely limited staff and can't deal with individual negotiations between all the owners and renters.  Other than allowing owner and renter to speak to each other, what blanket policy does everyone suggest these brokers to put out there to deal with the situation?


Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

McCrae said:


> Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.


I meant to deal with the current Covid issue


----------



## disneypharm

McCrae said:


> Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.


So, basically adding the paragraph he has added to the voucher contract: "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted." 
Right?  Well, that's crazy!   I hope no renter signs on a contract that basically tells you to give them money but no guarantee to give you anything!! Yes, I know you keep saying on this thread that this is normal in sports industry!!  I think this should not be acceptable in any industry, especially travel industry!


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.


The problem with this is who is going to want to rent a DVC room knowing they could lose thousands? That is why the language on the new contracts in my opinion stick it to the owners.  The secondary rental market is going to see big changes  with owners and renters not wanting to rent under the current and new conditions.  Going forward will be interesting


----------



## Sandisw

McCrae said:


> Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.



I  believe that a no refunds clause, with this situation being one that still results in nothing, will be a harder sell moving forward..which is why I think he included the voucher option,


----------



## JenniferYoung44

WDWEPCOT said:


> If the contracts are frustrated then everyone should be put back where they were before / renters receive refunds / owners receive points - period


But that’s not possible because points are time sensitive. in order to put the owner back to the exact same position as they were 11 months ago when a reservation was made you’d have to add 11 months to the points expiration and David can’t do that.


----------



## AquaDame

laserpastry said:


> David's refused to even ask the owner.  So, just a head's up.



This is good to know, thank you!



disneykins said:


> I am in the same position with an October rental (I am an owner). I agree with your decision to hold them to the contract if the resort is open and I would expect my 30%. It would be the same situation as if Covid never happened.
> If Davids wants to do something different with them and you forgo your additional 30%, you would keep the points as compensation, would you also keep the 70% you already received. It seems, if you give Davids the 70% back you are going above and beyond, going to a lot of trouble to held David out when he's doing nothing to help you.



Yeah, I've had more days to sleep on it, and in the last couple days all our other plans, events, trips, etc for the year have been cancelled by the event organizers, so I'm certainly feeling more defeated in general. All large gatherings in my state are cancelled until September, so please forgive me if I disagree that it's my choice & "it would be the same situation as if Covid never happened" once the hotels at WDW open back up.

To us the room was just location and benefit for everything outside the room - or I could go anywhere and wouldn't be paying the Disney premium. Til now, non-refundable to me meant if something happens in my life and we can't go my money is gone. Which I remain fine with. Not, the destination itself is changed but hey, you can _technically_ go... Never would I have thought when I booked last year that my trip may well fall during a phased reopening during a pandemic (what will be available still TBD). My problem is thinking of it from the renter's POV rather than from the owner's POV which is you're providing the room, done. In the end I'll live and learn.


----------



## McCrae

disneypharm said:


> So, basically adding the paragraph he has added to the voucher contract: "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
> Right?  Well, that's crazy!   I hope no renter signs on a contract that basically tells you to give them money but no guarantee to give you anything!! Yes, I know you keep saying on this thread that this is normal in sports industry!!  I think this should not be acceptable in any industry, especially travel industry!



The problem with David’s contract was the lack of clarity. This type of clause is not unusual and people are happy to sign them. If you don’t like the clause walk away or buy insurance that covers your concerns.


----------



## McCrae

Sandisw said:


> I  believe that a no refunds clause, with this situation being one that still results in nothing, will be a harder sell moving forward..which is why I think he included the voucher option,


I agree it will stop some people from wanting to rent and the market might become smaller.  It does however remove any ambiguity about the risks a renter is taking.


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> The problem with this is who is going to want to rent a DVC room knowing they could lose thousands? That is why the language on the new contracts in my opinion stick it to the owners.  The secondary rental market is going to see big changes  with owners and renters not wanting to rent under the current and new conditions.  Going forward will be interesting



I think you will be surprised how many people will take a risk to get a discount. Going to Florida in Hurricane season is a risk yet people do it every year. A lot of people will view what has happened as a one off and unlikely to be repeated again in our life time.
The risks can of course be mitigated with a good insurance policy that allows cancellation for any reason. 
One thing that I think will change is that people will look at insurance policies in more detail and what they cover.


----------



## CraigInPA

Bearval said:


> What i have noticed by looking at other sites that rent DVC points is that all of the contracts in the fine print now stick it to the owners of the points for making the renters whole by having to refund the money they received if an event like this happens again. I would be willing to bet this is being driven by the credit cards companies so that they are not on the hook for paying out for credit cards protection to their customers and if a business wants to accept C.C.s then they have to have this language in the contract.



More likely, this change is being driven by the brokers themselves, who want to safeguard their business from a situation like David's faces today. This should make any Owner question the value of the broker's "matchmaking" service at 25% of the total paid by the Renter.

As an Owner, I would never rent points under the condition that I would have to give a refund in full for points which became worthless through no fault of mine.


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> I think you will be surprised how many people will take a risk to get a discount. Going to Florida in Hurricane season is a risk yet people do it every year. A lot of people will view what has happened as a one off and unlikely to be repeated again in our life time.
> The risks can of course be mitigated with a good insurance policy that allows cancellation for any reason.
> One thing that I think will change is that people will look at insurance policies in more detail and what they cover.


There is one DVC point rental place that offers their own cancel for any reason insurance that pays out on a reduced sliding scale.  The real joke here is if you read the owners contract you still are obligated to rent your points or return all of the money you received.  So if the renter cancels the week before  you still have to let the company rent the number of  points or you must pay them back.  I asked what if the points are going to expire before you can rent them, their answer, you must return payment.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> If he does this, he basically demonstrates that the value of his service is essentially nil.  That is not a strong marketing strategy



Judging by the thousands of responses in this thread and thousands more on other well known forums, I'd say he's already demonstrated the lack of value in his services moving forward. I think he is destroying his supply chain with this new contract. Owners take on the majority of the risk? No thank you.


----------



## Bearval

CraigInPA said:


> More likely, this change is being driven by the brokers themselves, who want to safeguard their business from a situation like David's faces today. This should make any Owner question the value of the broker's "matchmaking" service at 25% of the total paid by the Renter.
> 
> As an Owner, I would never rent points under the condition that I would have to give a refund in full for points which became worthless through no fault of mine.


I agree.Also as an owner if I needed points if would try and find another owner here who would do a transfer as opposed to a renting of the points so I would have some control on making changes if need be


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> Judging by the thousands of responses in this thread and thousands more on other well known forums, I'd say he's already demonstrated the lack of value in his services moving forward. I think he is destroying his supply chain with this new contract. Owners take on the majority of the risk? No thank you.


I mean, owners already took on the majority of risk by owning.  See the hundreds of threads about owners pissed that their points were going to expire because they booked travel in the last 4 months of their use year.  Taking on the majority of risk is part of ownership.  So I think you may be right in the short term, but long term I think people will continue to ignore risk just as they always do.

WDW has also been opened for about 582 months I believe.  Two of those months have resulted in a total closure.  That's less than 0.35% of the time this clause would come into place.  My guess is once this pandemic is over, people will quickly forget just as they always do. 

Fwiw, I'm not suggesting people forget and automatically go back and use these services, I'm just suggesting it is human nature.


----------



## Cyberc1978

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I mean, owners already took on the majority of risk by owning.  See the hundreds of threads about owners pissed that their points were going to expire because they booked travel in the last 4 months of their use year.  Taking on the majority of risk is part of ownership.  So I think you may be right in the short term, but long term I think people will continue to ignore risk just as they always do.
> 
> WDW has also been opened for about 582 months I believe.  Two of those months have resulted in a total closure.  That's less than 0.35% of the time this clause would come into place.  My guess is once this pandemic is over, people will quickly forget just as they always do.
> 
> Fwiw, I'm not suggesting people forget and automatically go back and use these services, I'm just suggesting it is human nature.


I agree that owners already took on most risks by owning. That’s also why I think it’s fair that renters also take some of the risks when they get a big discount on the rooms.

Some renters wants to have the cake and eat it too.


----------



## VeroGuy

Bearval said:


> Also remember he limited the ability of the owners to mitigate their losses by telling them not to cancel.  Some owners at the time they did this still could have canceled and banked their points. (DVC later allowed this to happen anyway) this IMHO was only done for his self interest since the renter would be due a refund and the owner could have salvaged their points but the agency would have not made any commission. He would have been better off telling the owners who wanted to cancel to do so and get the money refunded.


This is what really irks me the most. In doing this IMO he proved that the voucher isn’t worth the webpage is was booked on, lol. He has proven that he is only acting in his own best interest and if someone were to bring this to the BBB and show where the company specifically directed owners to not cancel so that he would not have to give a refund, I’m not sure that would sit well with them in regards to his standing as a trustworthy company.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I mean, owners already took on the majority of risk by owning.  See the hundreds of threads about owners pissed that their points were going to expire because they booked travel in the last 4 months of their use year.  Taking on the majority of risk is part of ownership.  So I think you may be right in the short term, but long term I think people will continue to ignore risk just as they always do.
> 
> WDW has also been opened for about 582 months I believe.  Two of those months have resulted in a total closure.  That's less than 0.35% of the time this clause would come into place.  My guess is once this pandemic is over, people will quickly forget just as they always do.
> 
> Fwiw, I'm not suggesting people forget and automatically go back and use these services, I'm just suggesting it is human nature.


I think what will happen going forward is that these services will have way more people wanting to rent  than there will be of owners wanting their points rented out.  The new language of the contracts sticks it to the owners  so if someone consistently has too many excess points they may look to sell those contracts as opposed to renting them out.  Also more people will look to rent them out by themselves.   This in turn will eventually drive up the price per point for renters since demand will outstrip supply.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bearval said:


> I think what will happen going forward is that these services will have way more people wanting to rent  than there will be of owners wanting their points rented out.  The new language of the contracts sticks it to the owners  so if someone consistently has too many excess points they may look to sell those contracts as opposed to renting them out.  Also more people will look to rent them out by themselves.   This in turn will eventually drive up the price per point for renters since demand will outstrip supply.


That is definitely a possibility, and maybe even probable.  Granted, I still think people have short memories.  Taking a step back, the risk level is actually really small.  If you rent out 100 points at $20 per, your risking about $2000 (a lot of money but in the grand scheme, most DVC owners would be able to absorb that loss) with a really low probability of failure.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I mean, owners already took on the majority of risk by owning.  See the hundreds of threads about owners pissed that their points were going to expire because they booked travel in the last 4 months of their use year.  Taking on the majority of risk is part of ownership.  So I think you may be right in the short term, but long term I think people will continue to ignore risk just as they always do.
> 
> WDW has also been opened for about 582 months I believe.  Two of those months have resulted in a total closure.  That's less than 0.35% of the time this clause would come into place.  My guess is once this pandemic is over, people will *quickly* forget just as they always do.
> 
> Fwiw, I'm not suggesting people forget and automatically go back and use these services, I'm just suggesting it is human nature.



Good thing DVC extended those points. David's advertised NO RISK to owners when soliciting points and the contract was heavily favored towards the owner. Using a broker in the past provided a level of security for owners. Non refundable for any reason other than an action by the owner. Yes, I understand your stance is the action was simply purchasing DVC. I disagree with that assumption and doubt he would have any success with that argument. 

The million dollar question is will people forget soon enough for them to weather the storm. For the 40+ employees working at David's, I hope so. My heart goes out to them and I'm sure some of them are even participating in these threads throughout the various forums.

For myself and my circle or friends/owners, It will be never. We will handle things on our own. Same risk, higher reward, and control of the level of customer service.


----------



## keishashadow

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I mean, owners already took on the majority of risk by owning. See the hundreds of threads about owners pissed that their points were going to expire because they booked travel in the last 4 months of their use year. Taking on the majority of risk is part of ownership. So I think you may be right in the short term, but long term I think people will continue to ignore risk just as they always do.


I was not thrilled to pull the plug yesterday on a 2nd trip during this pandemic.  Banking window was approaching.  At least DVC was agreeable to reinstating the 2020 UY points back for me.

I’ve only been in a situation where I had to rent my points a couple of times & only would consider renting to another member.  Makes things easier as we all know the drill...my points, my choice.

There is an inherent risk on both sides of a TS rental from an owner.   For the owner (guest will trash the room or run up other unpaid charges) & renter (the owner will default). 

It’s an awful, unexpected situation for renters who had to be wildly excited to be able to afford staying at a deluxe villa (for nearly the same Price as an on-site value resort).   If anything, I’d file a chargeback on my credit card & hope for the best since the services weren’t rendered.  

 I’m a gambler but not inclined to rent another member’s points. When I run out of my own points, I revert to rentals for Wyndham Bonnet Creek but always thru Vacation Strategy.  Cancelled my Easter booking there outside of their stated cancellation period, didn’t purchase their insurance.  This was well before Disney closed the parks.  They issued me a non-expiring credit for my funds which was much appreciated.

For the cancelled trip I did have cruise-related trip insurance purchased in 2019. It would’ve covered all components of my trip _except_ any TS components.  The same as all the other cruise TI polices i’ve Had in the past.  FYI Starting in 2020 you have to purchase the pricier cancel for any reason sort or pandemic related issues aren’t covered under traditional policies.

I understand that the DVC professional rental sites want to shield themself, but so do those owners who used their services who likely never expected this might backfire upon them via posting their points in good faith.  

I smell a class action suit from one or both sides of the fence against the brokerage agencies.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> That is definitely a possibility, and maybe even probable.  Granted, I still think people have short memories.  Taking a step back, the risk level is actually really small.  If you rent out 100 points at $20 per, your risking about $2000 (a lot of money but in the grand scheme, most DVC owners would be able to absorb that loss) with a really low probability of failure.


I would rather bank the points , offer them to friends or family at the cost of the yearly dues or gift them to friends or family or donate them to my church and take a tax write off for the value of a cash room equivalent.  For arguments sake say 100 points get you 5 nights for a studio valued at $600.00 a night that is 3k that I can write off.  I much rather do one of those options instead of signing a convoluted contract. 


CanadaDisney05 said:


> That is definitely a possibility, and maybe even probable.  Granted, I still think people have short memories.  Taking a step back, the risk level is actually really small.  If you rent out 100 points at $20 per, your risking about $2000 (a lot of money but in the grand scheme, most DVC owners would be able to absorb that loss) with a really low probability of failure.


----------



## Bearval

MIDisFan said:


> Good thing DVC extended those points. David's advertised NO RISK to owners when soliciting points and the contract was heavily favored towards the owner. Using a broker in the past provided a level of security for owners. Non refundable for any reason other than an action by the owner. Yes, I understand your stance is the action was simply purchasing DVC. I disagree with that assumption and doubt he would have any success with that argument.
> 
> The million dollar question is will people forget soon enough for them to weather the storm. For the 40+ employees working at David's, I hope so. My heart goes out to them and I'm sure some of them are even participating in these threads throughout the various forums.
> 
> For myself and my circle or friends/owners, It will be never. We will handle things on our own. Same risk, higher reward, and control of the level of customer service.


I would like to meet that renter or owner who gets screwed out of $2,000.00 + that will soon forget.


----------



## Bearval

Bearval said:


> I would rather bank the points , offer them to friends or family at the cost of the yearly dues or gift them to friends or family or donate them to my church and take a tax write off for the value of a cash room equivalent.  For arguments sake say 100 points get you 5 nights for a studio valued at $600.00 a night that is 3k that I can write off.  I much rather do one of those options instead of signing a convoluted contract.


I would like to meet that owner who gets screwed out of $2,000.00 +  that will soon forget.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bearval said:


> I would rather bank the points , offer them to friends or family at the cost of the yearly dues or gift them to friends or family or donate them to my church and take a tax write off for the value of a cash room equivalent.  For arguments sake say 100 points get you 5 nights for a studio valued at $600.00 a night that is 3k that I can write off.  I much rather do one of those options instead of signing a convoluted contract.


Thats a noble thing, but I think that way of thinking puts you in the vast minority.  Where I live, you'd get about 20% back on your taxes by making the donation.  In a previous post I said that parks and resorts have been closed now for about 0.35% of WDWs existence.  Let's use those numbers just for simplicity.  I can't imagine the average person is willing to give up 80% of the profits to protect themselves from a 0.35% risk.  Especially when the 0.35% probability represents an amount that can generally be swallowed (this isn't life/disability insurance where even with a low probability, the loss is far too large for someone to overcome financially).


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bearval said:


> I would like to meet that renter or owner who gets screwed out of $2,000.00 + that will soon forget.


Most owners aren't getting screwed out of $2000 though.  What percentage of DVC owners had a rental during this period?  Of those, how many had the rental with this particular company.  Of those, how many returned the 70%?

I agree, I don't think anyone who personally took a full loss on this will jump to use their services again.  What I'm suggesting is that this number represents a vocal minority rather than the potential market.  Most of those who weren't directly negatively affected will likely forget or simply won't care.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Thats a noble thing, but I think that way of thinking puts you in the vast minority.  Where I live, you'd get about 20% back on your taxes by making the donation.  In a previous post I said that parks and resorts have been closed now for about 0.35% of WDWs existence.  Let's use those numbers just for simplicity.  I can't imagine the average person is willing to give up 80% of the profits to protect themselves from a 0.35% risk.  Especially when the 0.35% probability represents an amount that can generally be swallowed (this isn't life/disability insurance where even with a low probability, the loss is far too large for someone to overcome financially).


You are contradicting yourself, in an earlier post you stated most owners could absorb the loss now you are saying they can't?  Make up your mind which it is.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Dracula said:


> Thank you for the update. Unfortunately for David, if a significant number of renters pursue chargebacks rather than accept vouchers, and these chargebacks all get approved, it would be next to impossible to avoid bankruptcy.
> 
> Assuming the average booking horizon is 7.5 months, and the resorts would be closed for 2.5 months - this means 1/3 of David’s book of reservations would have been canceled. Since he only holds in cash ~25% of the funds paid by the renter (the money meant for the owners at check-in time), assuming 80% of renters file for chargebacks, basically all this money would be gone to reimburse renters.
> 
> A resort closure of 4 months would be certain bankruptcy. I would think David really really hopes the resorts would open really really soon, no matter what the parks do.


The other thing to consider from a business perspective is that for every chargeback filed the business pays fees.  Additionally, too many chargebacks can result in a merchant losing their ability to take credit cards, but in the wake of the pandemic maybe this will be overlooked.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bearval said:


> You are contradicting yourself, in an earlier post you stated most owners could absorb the loss now you are saying they can't?  Make up your mind which it is.


There's a difference between being able to absorb a loss without a financial hardship, and being willing to give away that kind of money.


----------



## Donna M

Section 15 of David's renter's agreement:

.... _ In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value *shall be the responsibility of the Owner*._

I read through both contracts with David's and noticed that the above is found only in the renter's agreement.  Interesting that the owner is responsible for something that is not found in the owner's agreement.  How can they get away with that?  Looks like the owner is not agreeing to pay the difference.  This is the clause that will keep me away from renting out my points.  If I missed it after reading it twice, that's a problem too.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> This is good to know, thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've had more days to sleep on it, and in the last couple days all our other plans, events, trips, etc for the year have been cancelled by the event organizers, so I'm certainly feeling more defeated in general. All large gatherings in my state are cancelled until September, so please forgive me if I disagree that it's my choice & "it would be the same situation as if Covid never happened" once the hotels at WDW open back up.
> 
> To us the room was just location and benefit for everything outside the room - or I could go anywhere and wouldn't be paying the Disney premium. Til now, non-refundable to me meant if something happens in my life and we can't go my money is gone. Which I remain fine with. Not, the destination itself is changed but hey, you can _technically_ go... Never would I have thought when I booked last year that my trip may well fall during a phased reopening during a pandemic (what will be available still TBD). My problem is thinking of it from the renter's POV rather than from the owner's POV which is you're providing the room, done. In the end I'll live and learn.



I can certainly understand where you are coming from as a renter,  But, the contract that you signed was pretty clear that i represents accommodations only, and that there was no guarantee of anything else,

So, if the resort is open, and the room you paid for available for check in, and you decide not to go, I am not understanding how it isn’t a default on your part?

Currently, no room is a completely different scenario, and I do think Davids has an issue with the set up for doing something for those renters,

But, once resorts are available, as difficult as it may be for a renter and the experience different with limited options, the choice really to cancel does fall on the renter and not broker or owner.


----------



## Grnl706

Sandisw said:


> I can certainly understand where you are coming from as a renter,  But, the contract that you signed was pretty clear that i represents accommodations only, and that there was no guarantee of anything else,
> 
> So, if the resort is open, and the room you paid for available for check in, and you decide not to go, I am not understanding how it isn’t a default on your part?
> 
> Currently, no room is a completely different scenario, and I do think Davids has an issue with the set up for doing something for those renters,
> 
> But, once resorts are available, as difficult as it may be for a renter and the experience different with limited options, the choice really to cancel does fall on the renter and not broker or owner.


This was my thinking as a renter too. If the resorts are open, that becomes on me. That's where I try my travel insurance or eat the money. I wouldn't even expect to be offered that stupid voucher from David's. 

The contract doesn't say anything about the parks, just the room. It's not on the owner or David's for me to have a certain experience, just a room.  Now if the room is cancelled because of the closure (looking more likely now that they're not accepting reservations in June), I would expect some type of remedy like a refund or to file a charge back.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> There's a difference between being able to absorb a loss without a financial hardship, and being willing to give away that kind of money.


Doesn't really matter in both cases the owner is out 2k. One is willingly the other is forced upon them.


----------



## Sandisw

Grnl706 said:


> This was my thinking as a renter too. If the resorts are open, that becomes on me. That's where I try my travel insurance or eat the money. I wouldn't even expect to be offered that stupid voucher from David's.
> 
> The contract doesn't say anything about the parks, just the room. It's not on the owner or David's for me to have a certain experience, just a room.  Now if the room is cancelled because of the closure (looking more likely now that they're not accepting reservations in June), I would expect some type of remedy like a refund or to file a charge back.



You can still book DVC rooms in June,  It is only cash reservations not being taken.


----------



## Grnl706

Sandisw said:


> You can still book DVC rooms in June,  It is only cash reservations not being taken.


I know. Still, to me I take the cash reservation change as a sign that it may not look as good for June to be when they open. At least mod June when my reservation is.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Cyberc1978 said:


> I agree that owners already took on most risks by owning. That’s also why I think it’s fair that renters also take some of the risks when they get a big discount on the rooms.
> 
> Some renters wants to have the cake and eat it too.



Owners have at least 70% of their money (unless they voluntarily returned it) plus their points, some in better state than others. David’s has 100% of their money, and in many cases they are holding the owners remaining 30%. Renters are out 100% of their money, 100% of their service purchased, and are left with at best a questionable voucher if we do not escalate to insurance/credit card. Renters are far and away most screwed in the situation if they do nothing and accept status quo. 

Renters do accept risks and downsides to renting. There is plenty outside of this pandemic that is way more inconvenient when it comes to renting, that we accept for discounted rooms. I’m sorry but the discount is hardly THAT high that that a major risk should be losing the reservation entirely with little to show for it while none of the other parties take a hit.

I really hate when this conversations turns to pitting owners and renters against each other.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> You can still book DVC rooms in June,  It is only cash reservations not being taken.


The business of renting DVC points relies heavily on repeat customers, this includes the renters and the owners who make their points available. It is clear from looking at how alot of the Intermediaries are restructuring their contracts that they place alot more value on the renters now. It is going to be tougher to run a business when you don't have a product to sell and with Disney most likely steeply discounting the rooms to draw back the crowds when they are allowed to.


----------



## Bearval

Grnl706 said:


> I know. Still, to me I take the cash reservation change as a sign that it may not look as good for June to be when they open. At least mod June when my reservation is.


It could be that the resort may be open but not the parks. Disney does not want to piss off a cash customer.


----------



## Bearval

DGsAtBLT said:


> Owners have at least 70% of their money (unless they voluntarily returned it) plus their points, some in better state than others. David’s has 100% of their money, and in many cases they are holding the owners remaining 30%. Renters are out 100% of their money, 100% of their service purchased, and are left with at best a questionable voucher if we do not escalate to insurance/credit card. Renters are far and away most screwed in the situation if they do nothing and accept status quo.
> 
> Renters do accept risks and downsides to renting. There is plenty outside of this pandemic that is way more inconvenient when it comes to renting, that we accept for discounted rooms. I’m sorry but the discount is hardly THAT high that that a major risk should be losing the reservation entirely with little to show for it while none of the other parties take a hit.
> 
> I really hate when this conversations turns to pitting owners and renters against each other.


I am not a renter or and owner who has rented points but I feel for both sides but think almost all of the anger is towards the Intermediary do to a piss poor contract. In my opinion any owner who was made completely whole should refund the monies , this would be the owners who had 2021points returned to 2021 and those who could bank 2020 points.  The Intermediary should be on the hook for making the renters whole.


----------



## TCRAIG

VeroGuy said:


> This is what really irks me the most. In doing this IMO he proved that the voucher isn’t worth the webpage is was booked on, lol. He has proven that he is only acting in his own best interest and if someone were to bring this to the BBB and show where the company specifically directed owners to not cancel so that he would not have to give a refund, I’m not sure that would sit well with them in regards to his standing as a trustworthy company.


But if the owner cancelled - wouldn’t that pretty much guarantee that the owner would have to reimburse - since that’s what is in the contract?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Bearval said:


> I am not a renter or and owner who has rented points but I feel for both sides but think almost all of the anger is towards the Intermediary do to a piss poor contract. In my opinion any owner who was made completely whole should refund the monies , this would be the owners who had 2021points returned to 2021 and those who could bank 2020 points.  The Intermediary should be on the hook for making the renters whole.



100% of my anger and frustration is directed at David’s, lol. 

We all used him as an intermediary for a relatively hefty fee and he has proven himself to be a matchmaker and nothing more.


----------



## Bearval

TCRAIG said:


> But if the owner cancelled - wouldn’t that pretty much guarantee that the owner would have to reimburse - since that’s what is in the contract?


Yes it would but if they canceled early enough they could have banked the points ,refunded the money and they David's would have to refund the renter.  Why do you think David's was telling the onwers not to cancel?????????????


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bearval said:


> Doesn't really matter in both cases the owner is out 2k. One is willingly the other is forced upon them.



We'll have to agree to disagree here.  I personally think there is a huge difference when you are voluntarily giving away money vs having it taken away.



Bearval said:


> The business of renting DVC points relies heavily on repeat customers, this includes the renters and the owners who make their points available. It is clear from looking at how alot of the Intermediaries are restructuring their contracts that they place alot more value on the renters now. It is going to be tougher to run a business when you don't have a product to sell do to the language in the new contracts with the pint owners along with Disney most likely steeply discounting the rooms to draw back the crowds when they are allowed to.



Of course you need both sides to make the business work.  But I think it's always harder to find people to give you money than it is to find people to give money to.



Bearval said:


> I am not a renter or and owner who has rented points but I feel for both sides but think almost all of the anger is towards the Intermediary do to a piss poor contract. In my opinion any owner who was made completely whole should refund the monies , this would be the owners who had 2021points returned to 2021 and those who could bank 2020 points.  The Intermediary should be on the hook for making the renters whole.



The thing is, the intermediary doesn't have the inventory supply to just give everyone everything.  They aren't a retailer.  They don't buy supply then resell it.  They just manage the transaction between two individuals and get a piece as compensation (roughly 25%).  If they give the owners and renters both 100%, they are giving away 175% with no compensation to show for it.  Even as large as Disney is, they wouldn't give that much money away.  I don't think you can expect a small business like David's to just give away that kind of cash that they likely don't even have.


----------



## banzai75

Before all this started I didn't know anything about rented points, use year, banked points, borrowed.  I just made a reservation at a slightly discounted rate than Aulani.  Saw some good reviews and went with it.  Saw the no-cancel party and was fine with it.  I made a April Resy in January.  

Started contacting David come March, asking him if he could contact owner.  Kept saying they only doing March reservations.  They wouldnt touch mine.  April came, then he said there is a voucher coming.  I was excited about that.   So I don' think he even tried to contact my owner.


Mid April comes and new voucher terms come out and I saw they were terrible.  Proceeded with chargeback.  All my anger directed towards David not the owner.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> The thing is, the intermediary doesn't have the inventory supply to just give everyone everything.  They aren't a retailer.  They don't buy supply then resell it.  They just manage the transaction between two individuals and get a piece as compensation (roughly 25%).  If they give the owners and renters both 100%, they are giving away 175% with no compensation to show for it.  Even as large as Disney is, they wouldn't give that much money away.  I don't think you can expect a small business like David's to just give away that kind of cash that they likely don't even have.



Aren't the brokers telling owners that they paid for those points and they belong to the broker now? There have been quite a few stories of Disney compensating a guest over and beyond as a gesture of good will and to ensure future business. Sometimes it's what a business has to do to make things right for their namesake. What attempt have the brokers made as such? How do you issue a voucher good towards the future use of something you don't have since they don't have a supply? Any offer to at least refund the commission, or is that being used to fuel the new luxury yacht? The broker business isn't as small as some would like to portray. Didn't one state they had over 3000 reservations effected? Do the math.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree here.  I personally think there is a huge difference when you are voluntarily giving away money vs having it taken away.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you need both sides to make the business work.  But I think it's always harder to find people to give you money than it is to find people to give money to.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, the intermediary doesn't have the inventory supply to just give everyone everything.  They aren't a retailer.  They don't buy supply then resell it.  They just manage the transaction between two individuals and get a piece as compensation (roughly 25%).  If they give the owners and renters both 100%, they are giving away 175% with no compensation to show for it.  Even as large as Disney is, they wouldn't give that much money away.  I don't think you can expect a small business like David's to just give away that kind of cash that they likely don't even have.


Under the language in the new contracts that fully favor the re


CanadaDisney05 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree here.  I personally think there is a huge difference when you are voluntarily giving away money vs having it taken away.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you need both sides to make the business work.  But I think it's always harder to find people to give you money than it is to find people to give money to.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, the intermediary doesn't have the inventory supply to just give everyone everything.  They aren't a retailer.  They don't buy supply then resell it.  They just manage the transaction between two individuals and get a piece as compensation (roughly 25%).  If they give the owners and renters both 100%, they are giving away 175% with no compensation to show for it.  Even as large as Disney is, they wouldn't give that much money away.  I don't think you can expect a small business like David's to just give away that kind of cash that they likely don't even have
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imbiguty of a contract goes a against the provider of that contract  that is why they are not demanding the owners repay the funds because according to his language in the contract or lack of language they are not required to . As to the renters he has to provide some compensation since for the he did not fulfill the "Consideration " part of the contract and according to the language he would only have to provide this if the owner defaulted in some way and they did not.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> Aren't the brokers telling owners that they paid for those points and they belong to the broker now?



Considering the points are in the owners account, and the owner maintains full control, I don't understand how that is even possible .



> There have been quite a few stories of Disney compensating a guest over and beyond as a gesture of good will and to ensure future business. Sometimes it's what a business has to do to make things right for their namesake.



Not at 7x the cost in the thousands.  



> What attempt have the brokers made as such? How do you issue a voucher good towards the future use of something you don't have since they don't have a supply? Any offer to at least refund the commission, or is that being used to fuel the new luxury yacht? The broker business isn't as small as some would like to portray. Didn't one state they had over 3000 reservations effected? Do the math.



Again, let's assume average rental is 150 points at $19/pt. Owner gets 14.50 per points.  To make everyone whole, David has to give the owner $2,175 and the renter $2,850, and then paying the commission to the employee (let's say its $1 per point so another $150)..  so this relatively small business is out $5,175 per reservation.  Let's assume you are correct they have 3000 reservation per year.  That's about 250 reservations so far that have been canceled.  That's nearly $1.3 million to give away.  Now if the average reservation earns them $375 of profit (150 x 4.5 - 2), that would take 3400 future reservations just to break even, which is about 14 months of working for free.  Its just not possible.

As it is, the owners in general are getting 100% of the money at the end of the day if they rent the points (according to the policy), and the renter is getting a voucher to get a stay.  

I know there are some external factors that may get in the way of everyone being made whole, but atleast they are doing what they can reasonably do.  I get why people are upset.  But I haven't heard a single reasonable solution  here that fixes the problem for everyone.  Just like the earlier loss of banked points problem, everyone's solution is "the big business should bail us all out".


----------



## Bearval

MIDisFan said:


> Aren't the brokers telling owners that they paid for those points and they belong to the broker now? There have been quite a few stories of Disney compensating a guest over and beyond as a gesture of good will and to ensure future business. Sometimes it's what a business has to do to make things right for their namesake. What attempt have the brokers made as such? How do you issue a voucher good towards the future use of something you don't have since they don't have a supply? Any offer to at least refund the commission, or is that being used to fuel the new luxury yacht? The broker business isn't as small as some would like to portray. Didn't one state they had over 3000 reservations effected? Do the math.


I wouldn't take the voucher if my day of check in has past .  The new terms are not the same as the one you signed up for.  I would contact my C.C. and demand a refund. Why would you be required to sign a new contract? Could it be it would nullify the original so you then couldn't have a successful charge back??


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Considering the points are in the owners account, and the owner maintains full control, I don't understand how that is even possible .
> 
> 
> 
> Not at 7x the cost in the thousands.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, let's assume average rental is 150 points at $19/pt. Owner gets 14.50 per points.  To make everyone whole, David has to give the owner $2,175 and the renter $2,850, and then paying the commission to the employee (let's say its $1 per point so another $150)..  so this relatively small business is out $5,175 per reservation.  Let's assume you are correct they have 3000 reservation per year.  That's about 250 reservations so far that have been canceled.  That's nearly $1.3 million to give away.  Now if the average reservation earns them $375 of profit (150 x 4.5 - 2), that would take 3400 future reservations just to break even, which is about 14 months of working for free.  Its just not possible.
> 
> As it is, the owners in general are getting 100% of the money at the end of the day if they rent the points (according to the policy), and the renter is getting a voucher to get a stay.
> 
> I know there are some external factors that may get in the way of everyone being made whole, but atleast they are doing what they can reasonably do.  I get why people are upset.  But I haven't heard a single reasonable solution  here that fixes the problem for everyone.  Just like the earlier loss of banked points problem, everyone's solution is "the big business should bail us all out".


I didn't see anyone  asking to be "bailed out" just to be given what they were promised and signed a contract for. As for a solution, it is not up to the renters or owners to provide one it is up to the entity that has the business that made the contractual promises


----------



## McCrae

Bearval said:


> There is one DVC point rental place that offers their own cancel for any reason insurance that pays out on a reduced sliding scale.  The real joke here is if you read the owners contract you still are obligated to rent your points or return all of the money you received.  So if the renter cancels the week before  you still have to let the company rent the number of  points or you must pay them back.  I asked what if the points are going to expire before you can rent them, their answer, you must return payment.


I have no problem with this type of contract as long as it’s clear what my obligations are. I can then make a better informed choice. I wouldn’t agree to rent with those conditions attached.


----------



## McCrae

TCRAIG said:


> But if the owner cancelled - wouldn’t that pretty much guarantee that the owner would have to reimburse - since that’s what is in the contract?


Yes, if the owner cancelled they would  be liable, not David’s.


----------



## VeroGuy

TCRAIG said:


> But if the owner cancelled - wouldn’t that pretty much guarantee that the owner would have to reimburse - since that’s what is in the contract?


I was looking at it from the perspective that if the owner could have banked their points and David’s prevented that, it should now be on David’s to make both parties whole. If the owner was willing to cancel, and return funds so they could bank the points and in turn make the renter whole with a refund from David’s and David’s prevented that then I just looks bad IMO. It’s been said a ton on heat but David’s could have at least worked with both parties to share the loss and salvage a good rep. Instead this is where we are now. I don’t blame any owner, my frustration is with David’s and the poor management of this entire situation.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bearval said:


> I didn't see anyone  asking to be "bailed out" just to be given what they were promised and signed a contract for. As for a solution, it is not up to the renters or owners to provide one it is up to the entity that has the business that made the contractual promises


Diaclaimer:
A) I'm not an Ontario Lawyer
B) I haven't seen the contracts.

But from my understanding, David is not buying points from the owners and then reselling.  They are acting as an intermediary agent in the transaction.  At no time does David take legal ownership of those points.  At no point does David take control over the points.

If the renter sues David for not providing the accommodations and not refunding the renter, I'd suspect David wouldn't be held responsible.  I'd suspect the renter would have a better chance at suing the owner for the refund.

Where the renter may have a case against David is for the act of not acting as an intermediary during the pandemic which didn't allow owners and renters to work things out.  They would likely get away with it though given that there was a worldwide pandemic, and the situation evolved too rapidly, with too many reservations affected in such a short time.  It was not reasonable to expect David's to have the capacity to deal with that type of volume in that short of a time frame.

Let me give another example.  If Disney decided not to refund cash clients who booked through Dreams Unlimited, would the expectation be that you sue Dreams or Disney.  (I know dreams doesn't hold funds in escrow, but that's besides the point)


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Considering the points are in the owners account, and the owner maintains full control, I don't understand how that is even possible .
> 
> 
> 
> Not at 7x the cost in the thousands.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, let's assume average rental is 150 points at $19/pt. Owner gets 14.50 per points.  To make everyone whole, David has to give the owner $2,175 and the renter $2,850, and then paying the commission to the employee (let's say its $1 per point so another $150)..  so this relatively small business is out $5,175 per reservation.  Let's assume you are correct they have 3000 reservation per year. *That's about 250 reservations so far that have been canceled.*  That's nearly $1.3 million to give away.  Now if the average reservation earns them $375 of profit (150 x 4.5 - 2), that would take 3400 future reservations just to break even, which is about 14 months of working for free.  Its just not possible.
> 
> As it is, the owners in general are getting 100% of the money at the end of the day if they rent the points (according to the policy), and the renter is getting a voucher to get a stay.
> 
> I know there are some external factors that may get in the way of everyone being made whole, but atleast they are doing what they can reasonably do.  I get why people are upset.  But I haven't heard a single reasonable solution  here that fixes the problem for everyone.  Just like the earlier loss of banked points problem, everyone's solution is "the big business should bail us all out".



The solution for every customer would not necessarily be a refund. It should have been an option and possible imo. 14 months to break even isn't really that bad to be honest. Plenty of businesses loose money over a year and are able to weather through the storm. Quite a few businesses suffer a net loss at some point. Guess it depends on how well its managed. I don't see it as a bail out but rather the consequence of poor business practices.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Diaclaimer:
> A) I'm not an Ontario Lawyer
> B) I haven't seen the contracts.
> 
> But from my understanding, David is not buying points from the owners and then reselling.  They are acting as an intermediary agent in the transaction.  At no time does David take legal ownership of those points.  At no point does David take control over the points.
> 
> If the renter sues David for not providing the accommodations and not refunding the renter, I'd suspect David wouldn't be held responsible.  I'd suspect the renter would have a better chance at suing the owner for the refund.
> 
> Where the renter may have a case against David is for the act of not acting as an intermediary during the pandemic which didn't allow owners and renters to work things out.  They would likely get away with it though given that there was a worldwide pandemic, and the situation evolved too rapidly, with too many reservations affected in such a short time.  It was not reasonable to expect David's to have the capacity to deal with that type of volume in that short of a time frame.
> 
> *Let me give another example.  If Disney decided not to refund cash clients who booked through Dreams Unlimited, would the expectation be that you sue Dreams or Disney.  (I know dreams doesn't hold funds in escrow, but that's besides the point)*



Wouldn't you sue the party you gave the funds to?


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Diaclaimer:
> A) I'm not an Ontario Lawyer
> B) I haven't seen the contracts.
> 
> But from my understanding, David is not buying points from the owners and then reselling.  They are acting as an intermediary agent in the transaction.  At no time does David take legal ownership of those points.  At no point does David take control over the points.
> 
> If the renter sues David for not providing the accommodations and not refunding the renter, I'd suspect David wouldn't be held responsible.  I'd suspect the renter would have a better chance at suing the owner for the refund.
> 
> Where the renter may have a case against David is for the act of not acting as an intermediary during the pandemic which didn't allow owners and renters to work things out.  They would likely get away with it though given that there was a worldwide pandemic, and the situation evolved too rapidly, with too many reservations affected in such a short time.  It was not reasonable to expect David's to have the capacity to deal with that type of volume in that short of a time frame.
> 
> Let me give another example.  If Disney decided not to refund cash clients who booked through Dreams Unlimited, would the expectation be that you sue Dreams or Disney.  (I know dreams doesn't hold funds in escrow, but that's besides the point)


You have to go by what was written in the contracts and the intermediary in this case provided those contracts and in litigation ambiguity of a contract goes against the provider of the contract which in this case is the intermediary.  As an example with the contract in question the renter was expecting a room or a refund if they did not cancel and the owner was expecting full payment as long as they didn't cancel the fact that they was no clause in the contract on what to do if an event such as this would happen falls on the shoulders of the intermediary.   The newer contract he is using addresses this now but doesn't help for the old ones.  As for your example of comparing Dreams and Disney to this one, that is comparing apples and oranges since the contracts are different.


----------



## Cyberc1978

DGsAtBLT said:


> Owners have at least 70% of their money (unless they voluntarily returned it) plus their points, some in better state than others. David’s has 100% of their money, and in many cases they are holding the owners remaining 30%. Renters are out 100% of their money, 100% of their service purchased, and are left with at best a questionable voucher if we do not escalate to insurance/credit card. Renters are far and away most screwed in the situation if they do nothing and accept status quo.
> 
> Renters do accept risks and downsides to renting. There is plenty outside of this pandemic that is way more inconvenient when it comes to renting, that we accept for discounted rooms. I’m sorry but the discount is hardly THAT high that that a major risk should be losing the reservation entirely with little to show for it while none of the other parties take a hit.
> 
> I really hate when this conversations turns to pitting owners and renters against each other.


I’m not condoning the actions from David’s or his voucher scheme. Owner with a April or June UY got their points back and in the end the points was extended. Extending points does not mean that all is good, as owner with those UY’s still can’t use the points or at least June owners can’t. When the points are usable the inventory is even more scarce than it use to be.

Those owners which could have or can rebook definitely should have done it also regardless of David’s opinion.

it seems that Davids believe that his contract does not apply to him since he is not paying the remaining 30% so why should owners follow his “paper document”.  We have already established that taking David’s, owners or renters to court is way too expensive for the one doing it so why not just help out renters if you can.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bearval said:


> There is one DVC point rental place that offers their own cancel for any reason insurance that pays out on a reduced sliding scale.  The real joke here is if you read the owners contract you still are obligated to rent your points or return all of the money you received.  So if the renter cancels the week before  you still have to let the company rent the number of  points or you must pay them back.  I asked what if the points are going to expire before you can rent them, their answer, you must return payment.


I may have missed it but I don't recall a single post, not one where someone had insurance that paid.  To many are repeating the mantra of 'just insure'.  Thank you for reading the policy.  thank you understanding it would take your money but not paid off.  For C19 in spite of the misleading claim of cancel for any reason in the name, it is just not true. A renter has to cancel within generally 48 hours to qualify and meet the other restrictions.  not one renter of a stay cancelled by disney will be paid by insurance.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Cyberc1978 said:


> I’m not condoning the actions from David’s or his voucher scheme. Owner with a April or June UY got their points back and in the end the points was extended. Extending points does not mean that all is good, as owner with those UY’s still can’t use the points or at least June owners can’t. When the points are usable the inventory is even more scarce than it use to be.
> 
> Those owners which could have or can rebook definitely should have done it also regardless of David’s opinion.
> 
> it seems that Davids believe that his contract does not apply to him since he is not paying the remaining 30% so why should owners follow his “paper document”.  We have already established that taking David’s, owners or renters to court is way too expensive for the one doing it so why not just help out renters if you can.



I realize the issues with the points coming back to owners, which is why I said that some got points back in better states than others. Just pointing out that I don’t think renters want to have their cake and eat it too, and that I think by default we are in the worst scenario before any action taken. 

I actually think owners should hold onto every dime they’ve gotten from David’s so far without a guarantee if returned it goes to their renter. His voucher garbage should only apply when owners cannot or will not give money back, IMO. That he is trying to fund them with owner returned money instead of just giving the renter the money back when it’s in hand tells me all I need to know about intentions and also has me questioning the companies financial situation as my guess is they aren’t sending returned money directly to renters because it’s a hardship to return their portion (and possibly the 30% the owner never received).


----------



## cmrdgrs

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Considering the points are in the owners account, and the owner maintains full control, I don't understand how that is even possible .
> 
> Not at 7x the cost in the thousands.
> 
> Again, let's assume average rental is 150 points at $19/pt. Owner gets 14.50 per points.  To make everyone whole, David has to give the owner $2,175 and the renter $2,850, and then paying the commission to the employee (let's say its $1 per point so another $150)..  so this relatively small business is out $5,175 per reservation.  Let's assume you are correct they have _3000 reservation per year._  That's about 250 reservations so far that have been canceled.  That's nearly $1.3 million to give away.  Now if the average reservation earns them $375 of profit (150 x 4.5 - 2), that would take 3400 future reservations just to break even, which is about 14 months of working for free.  Its just not possible.
> 
> As it is, the owners in general are getting 100% of the money at the end of the day if they rent the points (according to the policy), and the renter is getting a voucher to get a stay.
> 
> I know there are some external factors that may get in the way of everyone being made whole, but atleast they are doing what they can reasonably do.  I get why people are upset.  But I haven't heard a single reasonable solution  here that fixes the problem for everyone.  Just like the earlier loss of banked points problem, everyone's solution is "the big business should bail us all out".


According to David's own emails it sounds like he potentially is doing 3000-4000 per month, not per year.

Again, I've been hard on David throughout this thread, and feel for both the renter and the owner.  But, when owners say "I've had my points tied up all this time with the broker" "I deserve to be paid" that to me is immaterial - yes as an owner your points have been tied up, but if you had rented the points privately instead of with a broker they would have been "tied up" too.  The renter never had their stay at the resort.

Obviously, David is not alone in dealing with angry renters and owners.  VRBO, HomeAway, RedWeek, etc -- all of them are struggling through this mess.

If David had the money, it would have been helpful to refund renters at least 50% of what they paid and tried to get owners to continue to rebook.  But, as the middle man he controls nothing.  The DVC points don't belong to David, and the renters are angry because in theory he should have close to the 50% in hand because the rental never happened.

In the case were owners and renters wanted to speak IMO he should not have been the bottleneck stopping that process.  And now the onslaught of chargebacks are just going to overwhelm his business.

Not pretty.


----------



## cmrdgrs

AND I just want to point out that *only* April and June UYs got points back.  August UYs have not been helped in this situation.  Owners have not been made "whole" by DVCM.  They were "helped" but if you had banked 2018 points you only have a 6 months extension and for part of that extension everything has been closed and no announcement of re-opening has been announced.  So how helpful was that 6 month extension?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

cmrdgrs said:


> According to David's own emails it sounds like he potentially is doing 3000-4000 per month, not per year.
> 
> Again, I've been hard on David throughout this thread, and feel for both the renter and the owner.  But, when owners say "I've had my points tied up all this time with the broker" "I deserve to be paid" that to me is immaterial - yes as an owner your points have been tied up, but if you had rented the points privately instead of with a broker they would have been "tied up" too.  The renter never had their stay at the resort.
> 
> Obviously, David is not alone in dealing with angry renters and owners.  VRBO, HomeAway, RedWeek, etc -- all of them are struggling through this mess.
> 
> If David had the money, it would have been helpful to refund renters at least 50% of what they paid and tried to get owners to continue to rebook.  But, as the middle man he controls nothing.  The DVC points don't belong to David, and the renters are angry because in theory he should have close to the 50% in hand because the rental never happened.
> 
> In the case were owners and renters wanted to speak IMO he should not have been the bottleneck stopping that process.  And now the onslaught of chargebacks are just going to overwhelm his business.
> 
> Not pretty.


I agree.  I will add that David saying to owners originally "Don't cancel" was great advice and probably intended to limit owner's taking liability they did not have.  David should have explained this instead of just giving the conclusion of "don't cancel".   David got a bennies from this advice as well.  I have no idea what renters in general wanted and when.  Mine had decided in mid april they didn't want the risk of their trip on May 29.  If David has told owners to cancel or do as they wished everything would be different.  I don't know how the CC would go if the owner cancelled and the contract required owner and not David to fix.  I think it would have made things worse for most renters too.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I agree.  I will add that David saying to owners originally "Don't cancel" was great advice and probably intended to limit owner's taking liability they did not have.  David should have explained this instead of just giving the conclusion of "don't cancel".   David got a bennies from this advice as well.  I have no idea what renters in general wanted and when.  Mine had decided in mid april they didn't want the risk of their trip on May 29.  If David has told owners to cancel or do as they wished everything would be different.  I don't know how the CC would go if the owner cancelled and the contract required owner and not David to fix.  I think it would have made things worse for most renters too.



Well, if the renter requested the cancel in exchange for a refund, and the owner was willing to refund because they got points back they could or would use, then things could have worked out,

Again, not all owners would have been willing to refund, but Davids stopped them for one reason only,,,so he didn’t have to refund th e the money,,,

Once an owner cancel, he has to give the refund and then get it from the owner,  

We can come up with lots os different reasons why he may have done XYZ, but it still comes down to the fact that he could have worked with all owners and renters effected to see what worked best for that agreement,  

But, it is his business and he decided what would happen, and will know the true effect on his business going forward based on how many owners or Renters will or will not work with him.


----------



## suemom2kay

MIDisFan said:


> Judging by the thousands of responses in this thread and thousands more on other well known forums, I'd say he's already demonstrated the lack of value in his services moving forward. I think he is destroying his supply chain with this new contract. Owners take on the majority of the risk? No thank you.


Agreed.  I chose not to use David's cause I thought his cut was ridiculous.  Points used for reservations I made are Feb UY so I have lots of wiggle room.  I've offered my renters refunds/rescheduling.  No one has asked for a refund (yet) those that needed to re-scheduled.  Easy peasy.  I believe that the risk is on me.  But if I were using a broker taking a steep commission, I wouldn't feel that way.  At least shared risk should be in play.  He's gotten fat over the years on the backs of owners, its his turn to ante up.


----------



## McCrae

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I may have missed it but I don't recall a single post, not one where someone had insurance that paid.  To many are repeating the mantra of 'just insure'.  Thank you for reading the policy.  thank you understanding it would take your money but not paid off.  For C19 in spite of the misleading claim of cancel for any reason in the name, it is just not true. A renter has to cancel within generally 48 hours to qualify and meet the other restrictions.  not one renter of a stay cancelled by disney will be paid by insurance.


Earlier in this thread a poster stated he used his cancel for any reason insurance to obtain a refund.


----------



## starry_solo

McCrae said:


> Earlier in this thread a poster stated he used his cancel for any reason insurance to obtain a refund.



One of the very first posts said that their friend's insurance didn't cover pandemics or when parks were closed


----------



## Grnl706

I have a claim out for my travel insurance currently. I'd be happy to report back on how that goes. I submitted it April 22nd after what I believe to be a qualifying situation (read my policy thoroughly) happened and I submitted all the necessary documentation. Not sure how it's going to go but it was worth a shot and my easiest option.


----------



## Amymouse13

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I may have missed it but I don't recall a single post, not one where someone had insurance that paid.  To many are repeating the mantra of 'just insure'.  Thank you for reading the policy.  thank you understanding it would take your money but not paid off.  For C19 in spite of the misleading claim of cancel for any reason in the name, it is just not true. A renter has to cancel within generally 48 hours to qualify and meet the other restrictions.  not one renter of a stay cancelled by disney will be paid by insurance.



My reading of past 2000 pages is that bc David's issued voucher insurance isn't paying in drive cases.  Prior to that pandemics were often weren't covered.


----------



## 3babiesmom

So as a renter, if accept David's voucher and for some reason he goes bankrupt or out of business, then what?


----------



## Amymouse13

3babiesmom said:


> So as a renter, if accept David's voucher and for some reason he goes bankrupt or out of business, then what?



The last line in his voucher is you basically waived all your rights... In my chargeback rebuttal I cited the top 5 terms of his voucher that were not acceptable or at all part of my previous signed contract...


----------



## 3babiesmom

But what if I have already used my voucher (rescheduled my trip)? Would I get to use the points?


----------



## cm8

yes


3babiesmom said:


> But what if I have already used my voucher (rescheduled my trip)? Would I get to use the points?


No, I believe that reservation will
be effectively canceled. And that is what you agreed to.


----------



## Bearval

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I may have missed it but I don't recall a single post, not one where someone had insurance that paid.  To many are repeating the mantra of 'just insure'.  Thank you for reading the policy.  thank you understanding it would take your money but not paid off.  For C19 in spite of the misleading claim of cancel for any reason in the name, it is just not true. A renter has to cancel within generally 48 hours to qualify and meet the other restrictions.  not one renter of a stay cancelled by disney will be paid by insurance.


Usually for "cancel for any reason" insurance you have up to 48 hours before your date to cancel  and some policies are on a sliding scale for payment .    Meaning the closer you get to your date of arrival the less you get back. Cancel for any reason insurance would be one of the few policies that would pay out but most people don't buy it because it is also the most expensive


----------



## meryll83

Amymouse13 said:


> The last line in his voucher is you basically waived all your rights... In my chargeback rebuttal I cited the top 5 terms of his voucher that were not acceptable or at all part of my previous signed contract...


Can I ask which 5 you chose? Might help with my own claim when someone eventually gets in touch with me for more information... thanks!


----------



## McCrae

starry_solo said:


> One of the very first posts said that their friend's insurance didn't cover pandemics or when parks were closed


Most basic policies dont.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Amymouse13 said:


> My reading of past 2000 pages is that bc David's issued voucher insurance isn't paying in drive cases.  Prior to that pandemics were often weren't covered.


Generally speaking my travel insurance won’t cover anything pandemic or not if I’m provided with a voucher from the vendor.


----------



## Bearval

meryll83 said:


> Can I ask which 5 you chose? Might help with my own claim when someone eventually gets in touch with me for more information... thanks!


I would have to believe the last line where you are required to waive your rights would be enough.  Once you agree and sign that i don't believe you can have a charge back since this new contract would supercede the original one.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> Again, not all owners would have been willing to refund, but Davids stopped them for one reason only,,,so he didn’t have to refund th e the money,,,



This is a major jump in logic.  Without knowing all of the details it's impossible to know for sure, but there are plenty of other reasons (some of which I already laid out in this thread) for why he didn't allow owners to refund the cash to renters.



Sandisw said:


> We can come up with lots os different reasons why he may have done XYZ, but it still comes down to the fact that he could have worked with all owners and renters effected to see what worked best for that agreement,



If its true and he has 2000 to 3000 reservations per month, judging by the size of his staff listed on the website, it could take a year before they'd be able to resolve all of these issues, with the vast majority of owners probably not willing to refund the renters anyways.   You can see it in this thread.  By in large almost all owners believe they are entitled to the funds because it was "non refundable", while renteres believe they are entitled to  full refund because they don't believe the non refundable applies to this situation.  Davids is a small to medium sized company who's staff is probably not trained to make judgment calls like that and handle negotiations.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> The solution for every customer would not necessarily be a refund. It should have been an option and possible imo. 14 months to break even isn't really that bad to be honest. Plenty of businesses loose money over a year and are able to weather through the storm. Quite a few businesses suffer a net loss at some point. Guess it depends on how well its managed. I don't see it as a bail out but rather the consequence of poor business practices.


There's a huge difference between losing money, and voluntarily losing seven times your typical income level.  Keep in mind, the numbers I used were estimates based on two months of closure.  Someone later corrected that it was in fact about 2500 per month of sales rather than per year..  so here is an updated calculation.

5175 x 2500 x 3 months = 39 million dollars.

I'm pretty sure, even if they wanted to pay everyone out of goodwill, they couldn't just give away $39 million.

I've gotten a lot of responses about why the renter is right or why the owner is right, but still no one pointed to logical solution of how the broker could possibly fix the problem.  Just complaints about the one solution they offered.

Do I think the solution is perfect?  Definitely not.  Are there flaws?  Definitely.  Will everyone be made whole by the solution he came up with?  No, a lot of people will lose a lot of money.  Do I think its the best solution that anyone has brought to the table that I've seen?  It probably is.

Let's go with the assumption that David's is not going to go bankrupt (you can't expect the company to come up with a solution that leads them to bankruptcy, if so your just being naive), who really loses?  Owners eventually get the remaining 30%.  May take a bit longer than they were hoping for but they still get it.  Renter still gets their reservation.  Maybe its not exactly when and where they were hoping, but they still get to go on vacation.  And Davids gets to keep operating, which is good for all of us.  Davids acts as a marketing agent for point rentals on our (owners) behalf.

Just curious, what was the DVC stores solution to the same issues?  Nobody is discussing them


----------



## Amymouse13

meryll83 said:


> Can I ask which 5 you chose? Might help with my own claim when someone eventually gets in touch with me for more information... thanks!



Just read through terms of voucher and see which seem totally unreasonable... Like he can cancel it, you waive rights, depends on availability...

The problem for us is that it's not a guarantee for a reservation.  Secondly, it's a way for him to fix his faulty contract and have you agree to waive rights if you don't get anything... Basically you get nothing but you agreed to it.  When he added like 10 new contract terms not part of original contract is when it seemed like he really wasn't interested in helping renters.  

The problem is he can't guarantee the original contract terms as if an owners points can't be used he runs into a supply problem.  If every original owner could provide a reservation, he could fulfil what he was supposed to do and not lose his shirt.  This is what he should have tried to do especially with extended point life.  Maybe reservations would have looked different like instead of 7 nights in studio 4 nights in 1 bedroom but renters at least would be sure they got something.  Owners would have fulfilled and he really didn't end up losing... Instead he thinks owners will refund money and renters will take a voucher with those terms... Why would I agree to getting nothing lol


----------



## Marionnette

3babiesmom said:


> But what if I have already used my voucher (rescheduled my trip)? Would I get to use the points?


Okay. You’re asking that if you accept the voucher and reschedule your trip, and the David’s goes bankrupt, what happens then?

Well, first off, you don’t “own” those points. Neither does David’s. The DVC member owns the points. David’s agrees to pay that member the remaining 30% of what she/he is owed on your check in day. If David’s goes bankrupt, that owner can pretty much be assured that they will not receive their final amount.

Each owner acts independently. Some will look at a situation like that and leave the reservation as is, and accept that they will never see that last payment. Some, in anticipation of not getting paid, could cancel the reservation and let David’s deal with the renter. And others might look at the reservation and drop 30% of the nights. There’s no way of knowing how individual owners will act, regardless of whether they have a legal right to do it.

My advice, if you choose to go the way of a voucher (which I highly discourage doing), would be to book a regular room reservation. But that would be only if David’s guarantees that the reservation is paid in full at the time it is made AND he provides proof that it has been paid. You don’t want to show up at Disney for your vacation and learn that only the deposit has been paid and you owe the balance.

TBH, a chargeback on your credit card is really your best protection.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> There's a huge difference between losing money, and voluntarily losing seven times your typical income level.  Keep in mind, the numbers I used were estimates based on two months of closure.  Someone later corrected that it was in fact about 2500 per month of sales rather than per year..  so here is an updated calculation.
> 
> 5175 x 2500 x 3 months = 39 million dollars.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, even if they wanted to pay everyone out of goodwill, they couldn't just give away $39 million.
> 
> I've gotten a lot of responses about why the renter is right or why the owner is right, but still no one pointed to logical solution of how the broker could possibly fix the problem.  Just complaints about the one solution they offered.
> 
> Do I think the solution is perfect?  Definitely not.  Are there flaws?  Definitely.  Will everyone be made whole by the solution he came up with?  No, a lot of people will lose a lot of money.  Do I think its the best solution that anyone has brought to the table that I've seen?  It probably is.
> 
> Let's go with the assumption that David's is not going to go bankrupt (you can't expect the company to come up with a solution that leads them to bankruptcy, if so your just being naive), who really loses?  Owners eventually get the remaining 30%.  May take a bit longer than they were hoping for but they still get it.  Renter still gets their reservation.  Maybe its not exactly when and where they were hoping, but they still get to go on vacation.  And Davids gets to keep operating, which is good for all of us.  Davids acts as a marketing agent for point rentals on our (owners) behalf.
> 
> Just curious, what was the DVC stores solution to the same issues?  Nobody is discussing them


David's is listed on the BBB site as a sole proprietorship ,if this is accurate then his personal assets are on the line if he goes into bankruptcy ( house , car , dog etc) he is currently fighting for his financial life to keep from going bankrupt.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> There's a huge difference between losing money, and voluntarily losing seven times your typical income level.  Keep in mind, the numbers I used were estimates based on two months of closure.  Someone later corrected that it was in fact about 2500 per month of sales rather than per year..  so here is an updated calculation.
> 
> 5175 x 2500 x 3 months = 39 million dollars.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, even if they wanted to pay everyone out of goodwill, they couldn't just give away $39 million.
> 
> I've gotten a lot of responses about why the renter is right or why the owner is right, but still no one pointed to logical solution of how the broker could possibly fix the problem.  Just complaints about the one solution they offered.
> 
> Do I think the solution is perfect?  Definitely not.  Are there flaws?  Definitely.  Will everyone be made whole by the solution he came up with?  No, a lot of people will lose a lot of money.  Do I think its the best solution that anyone has brought to the table that I've seen?  It probably is.
> 
> Let's go with the assumption that David's is not going to go bankrupt (you can't expect the company to come up with a solution that leads them to bankruptcy, if so your just being naive), who really loses?  Owners eventually get the remaining 30%.  May take a bit longer than they were hoping for but they still get it.  Renter still gets their reservation.  Maybe its not exactly when and where they were hoping, but they still get to go on vacation.  *And Davids gets to keep operating, which is good for all of us*.  Davids acts as a marketing agent for point rentals on our (owners) behalf.
> 
> Just curious, what was the DVC stores solution to the same issues?  Nobody is discussing them



This situation has proven that there is not much value in using a broker as a DVC owner. The biggest advantage was security. We now see that was a false sense for both renter and owner. Rather or not, the broker has the ability to make things right has no bearing on his responsibility to do so.

 I don't think the overall demand on this thread has been  for him to refund every renter and for owners to also keep the 70% plus their points. Mostly the sticking point has been the terms of the voucher and for owners not being allowed to work with renters directly to help with re-booking. Both are solutions that would not cause a financial burden. As you stated earlier, if he lets owners and renters work together they would see they don't really need his services. So what will they provide moving forward that makes it good for all of us?


----------



## spinchy

I've gotten a lot of responses about why the renter is right or why the owner is right, but still no one pointed to logical solution of how the broker could possibly fix the problem.  Just complaints about the one solution they offered.

Do I think the solution is perfect?  Definitely not.  Are there flaws?  Definitely.  Will everyone be made whole by the solution he came up with?  No, a lot of people will lose a lot of money.  Do I think its the best solution that anyone has brought to the table that I've seen?  It probably is.

[/QUOTE]

I think there is a better solution than the one they’ve offered. A voucher that doesn‘t require agreeing to the new terms and is equal in value to what was originally paid. If they’d offered me a voucher for an equal number of points to what I purchased and still agreed to try to help if Covid forces another closure, I’d have accepted it right away.  Instead, I’ve started a charge back.


----------



## New Mouse

spinchy said:


> I've gotten a lot of responses about why the renter is right or why the owner is right, but still no one pointed to logical solution of how the broker could possibly fix the problem.  Just complaints about the one solution they offered.
> 
> Do I think the solution is perfect?  Definitely not.  Are there flaws?  Definitely.  Will everyone be made whole by the solution he came up with?  No, a lot of people will lose a lot of money.  Do I think its the best solution that anyone has brought to the table that I've seen?  It probably is.



I think there is a better solution than the one they’ve offered. A voucher that doesn‘t require agreeing to the new terms and is equal in value to what was originally paid. If they’d offered me a voucher for an equal number of points to what I purchased and still agreed to try to help if Covid forces another closure, I’d have accepted it right away.  Instead, I’ve started a charge back.
[/QUOTE]

And from an owners perspective, proof that the 30% due to all owners is in a holding account, not being user to fund the current situation.

Honesty and integrity go a long way to sustaining a business.


----------



## suemom2kay

CanadaDisney05 said:


> There's a huge difference between losing money, and voluntarily losing seven times your typical income level.  Keep in mind, the numbers I used were estimates based on two months of closure.  Someone later corrected that it was in fact about 2500 per month of sales rather than per year..  so here is an updated calculation.
> 
> 5175 x 2500 x 3 months = 39 million dollars.


It looks like your basing this on the HUGE assumption that every cancelled reservation requires a full refund.  If David's would allow owners to reschedule their renters, a lot of these refunds would not be necessary.



CanadaDisney05 said:


> Just curious, what was the DVC stores solution to the same issues?  Nobody is discussing them


I would have to assume much better or people would be talking about it here.

Bottom line, David's made it impossible for those affected to find adequate solutions.  He made a nice commission for many years and now is inventing a ponzi like scheme to get out of having to provide any of his share to fix this mess.  The owners with viable points that have posted on this thread wanted to work with their renters and were precluded by David's.  This is not the actions of a business trying to find solutions for their customers.


----------



## Bearval

suemom2kay said:


> It looks like your basing this on the HUGE assumption that every cancelled reservation requires a full refund.  If David's would allow owners to reschedule their renters, a lot of these refunds would not be necessary.
> 
> 
> I would have to assume much better or people would be talking about it here.
> 
> Bottom line, David's made it impossible for those affected to find adequate solutions.  He made a nice commission for many years and now is inventing a ponzi like scheme to get out of having to provide any of his share to fix this mess.  The owners with viable points that have posted on this thread wanted to work with their renters and were precluded by David's.  This is not the actions of a business trying to find solutions for their customers.


I believe most of the owners want to do the right thing if they are able to. Any owner who was given points back that they are able to bank should allow them to be used by the renters in the future but the intermediary here has changed the rules and is requiring them to agree to a new contract with different language.  They also stopped people from trying to mitigate their losses by telling the owners not to cancel. I see both sides and I am talking about owers and renters here. The only group that should be stuck if everyone did the right thing would be bookings that were done with points that are passed the banking date and will expire. In this case the intermediary should be responsible for using a poor contract and his actions to try and fix the situation does not bode well and gives the appearance his fixes were in his best interests


----------



## glamdring269

I first rented from David's years ago then eventually bought into DVC and used David's as a broker to rent out my points. The only real value he provided from my perspective as a DVC owner is connecting me to many more potential renters than I would get anywhere else since they are renting from his company and not from me. There is a trust there that you're just not going to get from a 1:1 exchange on a message board. It took a catastrophic event to destroy that trust and I'm really concerned about how the rental landscape is going to look when we come out of the other side of this.


----------



## suemom2kay

Bearval said:


> I believe most of the owners want to do the right thing if they are able to. Any owner who was given points back that they are able to bank should allow them to be used by the renters in the future but the intermediary here has changed the rules and is requiring them to agree to a new contract with different language.  They also stopped people from trying to mitigate their losses by telling the owners not to cancel. I see both sides and I am talking about owers and renters here. The only group that should be stuck if everyone did the right thing would be bookings that were done with points that are passed the banking date and will expire. In this case the intermediary should be responsible for using a poor contract and his actions to try and fix the situation does not bode well and gives the appearance his fixes were in his best interests


Exactly!


----------



## suemom2kay

glamdring269 said:


> I first rented from David's years ago then eventually bought into DVC and used David's as a broker to rent out my points. The only real value he provided from my perspective as a DVC owner is connecting me to many more potential renters than I would get anywhere else since they are renting from his company and not from me. There is a trust there that you're just not going to get from a 1:1 exchange on a message board. It took a catastrophic event to destroy that trust and I'm really concerned about how the rental landscape is going to look when we come out of the other side of this.


I rented over 150 points over 5 rentals here on the DIS.  It took a couple of days to rent my points.  My affected renters were re-scheduled in a few minutes.  An intermediary was supposed to make it safer for all, and in a normal climate, perhaps that was true.  I just see us going back to basics before the David's of the world.  A handy dandy contract and you're better protected than using a Canada based company here in the US.


----------



## crisi

suemom2kay said:


> I rented over 150 points over 5 rentals here on the DIS.  It took a couple of days to rent my points.  My affected renters were re-scheduled in a few minutes.  An intermediary was supposed to make it safer for all, and in a normal climate, perhaps that was true.  I just see us going back to basics before the David's of the world.  A handy dandy contract and you're better protected than using a Canada based company here in the US.



Your ability to do so however, depended on your use year, your renters willingness to reschedule before your points expire (I'm not going to Disney for the next year and if my points expire, they expire - that's a petri dish I'm not getting close to until we get herd immunity or my family and I have established immunity).  Owners whose renters were travelling at the end of their use year didn't have the luxury to reschedule - their points were expiring.  And Disney extended them, but not for long enough periods of time to keep everyone happy.  

Its really nice when owners were willing and able to do this for renters.  Not all owners could.  And David, who deals with many renters and many owners couldn't discriminate that "this pairing received X as compensation but this one received Y, and this one got nothing at all."

I see us continuing to use brokers, but with a new awareness that you are getting a spectacular deal because there is risk.  That was ALWAYS the case.  Brokers lowered that risk, but the risk renters take is still there if they go private.  I would have been looking at renters and saying "see, non-refundable for any reason, right there in the contract."

However, most of the current brokers will have to declare bankruptcy.  Some may reopen under new names.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> This is a major jump in logic.  Without knowing all of the details it's impossible to know for sure, but there are plenty of other reasons (some of which I already laid out in this thread) for why he didn't allow owners to refund the cash to renters.


I don't think that would be a major jump in logic since the contract clearly states if the owner cancels the reservation they must refund payment.


----------



## moab44

Has anyone who has accepted the voucher been able to book something yet?  I was told I need to wait till May for my request to be looked at.


----------



## suemom2kay

crisi said:


> Your ability to do so however, depended on your use year, your renters willingness to reschedule before your points expire (I'm not going to Disney for the next year and if my points expire, they expire - that's a petri dish I'm not getting close to until we get herd immunity or my family and I have established immunity).  Owners whose renters were travelling at the end of their use year didn't have the luxury to reschedule - their points were expiring.  And Disney extended them, but not for long enough periods of time to keep everyone happy.
> 
> Its really nice when owners were willing and able to do this for renters.  Not all owners could.  And David, who deals with many renters and many owners couldn't discriminate that "this pairing received X as compensation but this one received Y, and this one got nothing at all."
> 
> I see us continuing to use brokers, but with a new awareness that you are getting a spectacular deal because there is risk.  That was ALWAYS the case.  Brokers lowered that risk, but the risk renters take is still there if they go private.  I would have been looking at renters and saying "see, non-refundable for any reason, right there in the contract."
> 
> However, most of the current brokers will have to declare bankruptcy.  Some may reopen under new names.


Correct, it would not work for all. But why should renter A who rented x number of points from owner A have to worry about renter B’s transaction. If David’s would allow owners to work with their renters, he would only have to deal with those without resolution. He now has every customer without resolution.  Unless you consider his “voucher” program a resolution.


----------



## Bearval

crisi said:


> Your ability to do so however, depended on your use year, your renters willingness to reschedule before your points expire (I'm not going to Disney for the next year and if my points expire, they expire - that's a petri dish I'm not getting close to until we get herd immunity or my family and I have established immunity).  Owners whose renters were travelling at the end of their use year didn't have the luxury to reschedule - their points were expiring.  And Disney extended them, but not for long enough periods of time to keep everyone happy.
> 
> Its really nice when owners were willing and able to do this for renters.  Not all owners could.  And David, who deals with many renters and many owners couldn't discriminate that "this pairing received X as compensation but this one received Y, and this one got nothing at all."
> 
> I see us continuing to use brokers, but with a new awareness that you are getting a spectacular deal because there is risk.  That was ALWAYS the case.  Brokers lowered that risk, but the risk renters take is still there if they go private.  I would have been looking at renters and saying "see, non-refundable for any reason, right there in the contract."
> 
> However, most of the current brokers will have to declare bankruptcy.  Some may reopen under new names.


I think when all of the dust settles here you are going to see the contracts go thru several rewrites until the terms get to that happy medium where both the renters and the owners find acceptable.   If I were to start up a business such as this I would use a contract that was very similar to the one that was being used but I would require CFAR insurance  and a check off box for the renter if they didn't want to purchase it and a full explanation of the risks.    Yes this would increase the cost of the contract ( from what I have seen it would be about 10% more) and they do reduce the reimbursement the closer the arrival date is when you cancel.


----------



## glamdring269

suemom2kay said:


> I rented over 150 points over 5 rentals here on the DIS.  It took a couple of days to rent my points.  My affected renters were re-scheduled in a few minutes.  An intermediary was supposed to make it safer for all, and in a normal climate, perhaps that was true.  I just see us going back to basics before the David's of the world.  A handy dandy contract and you're better protected than using a Canada based company here in the US.



Did you have previous experience/references? Honestly have never tried to use the board as I assumed with 0 references/rental history it would be difficult to get anyone to move forward. Gotta start somewhere though.


----------



## suemom2kay

glamdring269 said:


> Did you have previous experience/references? Honestly have never tried to use the board as I assumed with 0 references/rental history it would be difficult to get anyone to move forward. Gotta start somewhere though.


Nope!  Just bought my contract and it came with loaded points I couldn’t use.


----------



## crisi

suemom2kay said:


> Correct, it would not work for all. But why should renter A who rented x number of points from owner A have to worry about renter B’s transaction. If David’s would allow owners to work with their renters, he would only have to deal with those without resolution. He now has every customer without resolution.  Unless you consider his “voucher” program a resolution.



Because they have a contract not with the owner, but with David.  And David needs to apply policy consistently because he is running a business, not a free for all.


----------



## VeroGuy

crisi said:


> Your ability to do so however, depended on your use year, your renters willingness to reschedule before your points expire (I'm not going to Disney for the next year and if my points expire, they expire - that's a petri dish I'm not getting close to until we get herd immunity or my family and I have established immunity).  Owners whose renters were travelling at the end of their use year didn't have the luxury to reschedule - their points were expiring.  And Disney extended them, but not for long enough periods of time to keep everyone happy.
> 
> Its really nice when owners were willing and able to do this for renters.  Not all owners could.  And David, who deals with many renters and many owners couldn't discriminate that "this pairing received X as compensation but this one received Y, and this one got nothing at all."
> 
> I see us continuing to use brokers, but with a new awareness that you are getting a spectacular deal because there is risk.  That was ALWAYS the case.  Brokers lowered that risk, but the risk renters take is still there if they go private.  I would have been looking at renters and saying "see, non-refundable for any reason, right there in the contract."
> 
> However, most of the current brokers will have to declare bankruptcy.  Some may reopen under new names.



I don’t believe that to be true,  David’s rental contract with me specifically states that if the reservation CANNOT be fulfilled due to any action outside of the renters control like the owner canceling the resi or *DVCM, acting on behalf of the owner canceling the resi I am due a refund in full paid by the intermediary.

“Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, *the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $x,xxx.xx US Dollars.*”

David has pitted owners against renters when we really all should be flat out saying no to this one sided voucher that releases him from his obligations of the original contract.

*Edited for clarification


----------



## crisi

Bearval said:


> I think when all of the dust settles here you are going to see the contracts go thru several rewrites until the terms get to that happy medium where both the renters and the owners find acceptable.   If I were to start up a business such as this I would use a contract that was very similar to the one that was being used but I would require CFAR insurance  and a check off box for the renter if they didn't want to purchase it and a full explanation of the risks.    Yes this would increase the cost of the contract ( from what I have seen it would be about 10% more) and they do reduce the reimbursement the closer the arrival date is when you cancel.



Frankly, if renters don't like the terms, many owners do not need to rent.


----------



## McCrae

VeroGuy said:


> I don’t believe that to be true,  David’s rental contract with me specifically states that if the reservation CANNOT be fulfilled due to any action outside of the renters control like the owner canceling the resi or DVCM canceling the resi I am due a refund in full.
> 
> “Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, *the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $x,xxx.xx US Dollars.*”
> 
> David has pitted owners against renters when we really all should be flat out saying no to this one sided voucher that releases him from his obligations of the original contract.



Where does it refer to DVCM cancelling?


----------



## crisi

VeroGuy said:


> I don’t believe that to be true,  David’s rental contract with me specifically states that if the reservation CANNOT be fulfilled due to any action outside of the renters control like the owner canceling the resi or DVCM canceling the resi I am due a refund in full.
> 
> “Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, *the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $x,xxx.xx US Dollars.*”
> 
> David has pitted owners against renters when we really all should be flat out saying no to this one sided voucher that releases him from his obligations of the original contract.



This isn't an act or omission by the member.


----------



## Amymouse13

McCrae said:


> Where does it refer to DVCM cancelling?



This doesn't say the owner will refund, it actually doesn't say from whom the refund comes... No suitable reservation available we are due refund from someone- presumably the person we have contract with (David).


----------



## Marionnette

VeroGuy said:


> I don’t believe that to be true,  David’s rental contract with me specifically states that if the reservation CANNOT be fulfilled due to any action outside of the renters control like the owner canceling the resi or DVCM canceling the resi I am due a refund in full.
> 
> “Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Member, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Member and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Member, *the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $x,xxx.xx US Dollars.*”
> 
> David has pitted owners against renters when we really all should be flat out saying no to this one sided voucher that releases him from his obligations of the original contract.


I don’t see where it specifically states that “if the reservation  CANNOT be fullfilled due to any action outside of the renters (sic) control” that the renter is due a refund or other accommodation. It only refers to actions or omissions by the owner. DVCM is not mentioned at all.


----------



## Amymouse13

Marionnette said:


> I don’t see where it specifically states that “if the reservation  CANNOT be fullfilled due to any action outside of the renters (sic) control” that the renter is due a refund or other accommodation. It only refers to actions or omissions by the owner. DVCM is not mentioned at all.



It's been previously mentioned dvcm acts on behalf of owners.  Also in early says some owners cancelled reservations before David changed his tune.


----------



## VeroGuy

McCrae said:


> Where does it refer to DVCM cancelling?


It doesn’t but it has been mentioned on here that an argument can be made that DVCM is an extension of the owner and acted on behalf of the owner and still is.

Most resorts have announced reopening dates in Florida but crickets are coming from DVCM and Disney. Yes the logistics of opening these resorts may be more complex but no statement is a statement. You have owners who are losing value In their membership by the day with no response from the management company an owner trusted would act in their best interest. Has any owner reached out to DVCM and asked for an explanation or a time frame for when their timeshare will be made available to them? Serious question.


----------



## Donna M

McCrae said:


> Where does it refer to DVCM cancelling?



I would have the same question.  From what I remember, there is wording about DVC resorts being closed, but it does not use the words.. DVCM cancelling...


----------



## VeroGuy

My wife and I have looked into DVC ownership for a while and just have never pulled the trigger on it. We liked renting to try out resorts and I guess you can say we are still in the trial phase.

I would still entertain the idea, even to this day and after this event. But I do question DVCM just as I would question my HOA if they decided something on my behalf for common areas theat required me to take a financial loss.


----------



## crisi

Amymouse13 said:


> It's been previously mentioned dvcm acts on behalf of owners.  Also in early says some owners cancelled reservations before David changed his tune.



Yeah, that's not a legal argument that holds any water.  DVCM does not represent me in regards to your rental.  They represent me in their negotiations with the general Walt Disney Company.  Their representation is limited and does not extend as far as you are implying.


----------



## Sandisw

CanadaDisney05 said:


> This is a major jump in logic.  Without knowing all of the details it's impossible to know for sure, but there are plenty of other reasons (some of which I already laid out in this thread) for why he didn't allow owners to refund the cash to renters.
> 
> 
> 
> If its true and he has 2000 to 3000 reservations per month, judging by the size of his staff listed on the website, it could take a year before they'd be able to resolve all of these issues, with the vast majority of owners probably not willing to refund the renters anyways.   You can see it in this thread.  By in large almost all owners believe they are entitled to the funds because it was "non refundable", while renteres believe they are entitled to  full refund because they don't believe the non refundable applies to this situation.  Davids is a small to medium sized company who's staff is probably not trained to make judgment calls like that and handle negotiations.



My point was he is stopping owners from canceling to preserve points because then he has to refund renters , which he does not want to do,  Plain and simple,

So, any owner who was willing to send the money back, and be allowed to cancel so they had usable points has been told they can’t do that...they must wait for Disney,..why?  

He wants the ability to change the contract, but won’t let owners out when it doesn’t fit his needs,


----------



## Amymouse13

crisi said:


> Yeah, that's not a legal argument that holds any water.  DVCM does not represent me in regards to your rental.  They represent me in their negotiations with the general Walt Disney Company.  Their representation is limited and does not extend as far as you are implying.



So you're saying dvcm doesn't decide when to replace carpet or paint buildings on your behalf but when it comes to operating status they don't?  I'm not saying owners should refund renters as the contract merely says I'm due a refund... Not that owners are paying.  My contract is with David's.


----------



## VeroGuy

Amymouse13 said:


> So you're saying dvcm doesn't decide when to replace carpet or paint buildings on your behalf but when it comes to operating status they don't?  I'm not saying owners should refund renters as the contract merely says I'm due a refund... Not that owners are paying.  My contract is with David's.


I agree with you, and I was just trying to point out the flaw in David’s contract language.


----------



## Marionnette

Amymouse13 said:


> It's been previously mentioned dvcm acts on behalf of owners.  Also in early says some owners cancelled reservations before David changed his tune.


The point is that the PP stated that the rental agreement specifically mentions cancellations by DVCM. It doesn’t. And it could be argued that actions by DVCM are not actions by the owner. That point has never been clarified and gets repeated by renters who want to put owners on the hook for the pandemic cancellations.


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> It doesn’t but it has been mentioned on here that an argument can be made that DVCM is an extension of the owner and acted on behalf of the owner and still is.
> 
> Most resorts have announced reopening dates in Florida but crickets are coming from DVCM and Disney. Yes the logistics of opening these resorts may be more complex but no statement is a statement. You have owners who are losing value In their membership by the day with no response from the management company an owner trusted would act in their best interest. Has any owner reached out to DVCM and asked for an explanation or a time frame for when their timeshare will be made available to them? Serious question.



Yes, I have contacted them and the state of emergency issued in Florida,,,and now extended...gives DVCM the legal authority to keep the resorts closed in the interest of health and safety,  Disney is the one with the property management contract so that plays into this as well,

So, as long as those orders are in play, they can delay opening until  they have the procedures in place to safely open the resorts,,,and these emergency powers do allow them to keep owners out.


----------



## VeroGuy

Marionnette said:


> The point is that the PP stated that the rental agreement specifically mentions cancellations by DVCM. It doesn’t. And it could be argued that actions by DVCM are not actions by the owner. That point has never been clarified and gets repeated by renters who want to put owners on the hook for the pandemic cancellations.


I am a renter and am not trying to put you as an owner on the hook. I am putting David on the hook for not clarifying the difference in the contract.

I am owed a refund by the intermediary that created the contract.


----------



## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> Yes, I have contacted them and the state of emergency issued in Florida,,,and now extended...gives DVCM the legal authority to keep the resorts closed in the interest of health and safety,  Disney is the one with the property management contract so that plays into this as well,
> 
> So, as long as those orders are in play, they can delay opening until  they have the procedures in place to safely open the resorts,,,


Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.


----------



## crisi

Amymouse13 said:


> So you're saying dvcm doesn't decide when to replace carpet or paint buildings on your behalf but when it comes to operating status they don't?  I'm not saying owners should refund renters as the contract merely says I'm due a refund... Not that owners are paying.  My contract is with David's.



I'm saying they decide to replace carpet on my behalf, and close the resort, but that doesn't extend to them being my representative in an agreement between me and David and a renter.  Its a little like saying my homeowners association is my representative when replacing my siding - but they aren't when Instacart delivers groceries to my door.  An agent has limited authority and liability, and I have limited liability regarding the actions of my agent.


----------



## Marionnette

VeroGuy said:


> I am a renter and am not trying to put you as an owner on the hook. I am putting David on the hook for not clarifying the difference in the contract.
> 
> I am owed a refund by the intermediary that created the contract.


According to your rental agreement, you are owed a refund if an omission or action by the owner results in no room being available. By extending DVMC’s actions to be included as an action by the owner, you are, in effect, making the owner responsible to David’s for a refund.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

VeroGuy said:


> I am a renter and am not trying to put you as an owner on the hook. I am putting David on the hook for not clarifying the difference in the contract.
> 
> I am owed a refund by the intermediary that created the contract.



Right.

I’m assuming that clause is in there to protect a renter from an owner cancelling and leaving the renter without a reservation and without money. If that did happen, I couldn't care less what went on between owner and David’s, Davids gives me the money back and how they obtain it is their problem. This is why we all use them. They are the middle man and offered some (false) layer of protection. 

It frustrates me that they have created an entire business around lowering risk in these transactions being the intermediary, yet some seem willing to excuse them for not having plans in place when something goes majorly wrong. Yes this scenario is huge and unprecedented, but it appears they are flying by the seat of their pants even when the closure was 2 weeks.
Surely that should have been planned for in some way, even just a single resort. What if a fire took out a DVC resort?


----------



## VeroGuy

Marionnette said:


> According to your rental agreement, you are owed a refund if an omission or action by the owner results in no room being available. By extending DVMC’s actions to be included as an action by the owner, you are, in effect, making the owner responsible to David’s for a refund.


I get what you are saying but my contract is between David’s and I. Just as the owners contract is between the owner and David’s.

I was not privy to contract language between the owner and David’s and therefore I am not going after owners for a refund but I am going after the company who I paid for a reservation that can’t be fulfilled.

It is up to David’s and the owner to hash out how that happens between themselves. If David’s believes the owner owes him something that is on him to go after those funds and he can do so outside of giving me a refund for the non-existing reservation that was paid for.

It has been said many times before in this thread that this situation has really exposed what the intermediary does for there heavy fee, and that is not a lot. If I rent going forward I will do so with private owners that have a clear and concise contract, likely to be one of my many friends that are DVC members who I have a personal relationship with.


----------



## Grnl706

Maybe I'm missing something but the rental contracts says it is for XX days at XX resort with a reservation number. If that does not exist because the resort is closed what contract does a renter even have? The contract isn't for a specific number of points, it is for a specific reservation. Is the entire thing not voided the second that reservation doesn't exist? David's is on the hook to fix that to the renter, not the owner. When it comes to David's and the owner, I understand that creates entirely different issues and is a different contract. But I'm just not seeing that anyone is expecting the owner to  do anything? It is all David's on both sides, Renter vs. Davids and Owner vs. Davids, not Renter vs. Owner.


----------



## yankeesfan123

DGsAtBLT said:


> Right.
> 
> I’m assuming that clause is in there to protect a renter from an owner cancelling and leaving the renter without a reservation and without money. If that did happen, I couldn't care less what went on between owner and David’s, Davids gives me the money back and how they obtain it is their problem. This is why we all use them. They are the middle man and offered some (false) layer of protection.
> 
> It frustrates me that they have created an entire business around lowering risk in these transactions being the intermediary, yet some seem willing to excuse them for not having plans in place when something goes majorly wrong. Yes this scenario is huge and unprecedented, but it appears they are flying by the seat of their pants even when the closure was 2 weeks.
> Surely that should have been planned for in some way, even just a single resort. What if a fire took out a DVC resort?


I think Disney would do their best to accommodate the guests into a different resort... and I think the original contract covered that. I think the closest and realistic comparison is the resorts close due to a hurricane. But as we have seen, the resorts typically stay open even if the park is closed, which I’m sure David knows.


----------



## crisi

DGsAtBLT said:


> Right.
> 
> I’m assuming that clause is in there to protect a renter from an owner cancelling and leaving the renter without a reservation and without money. If that did happen, I couldn't care less what went on between owner and David’s, Davids gives me the money back and how they obtain it is their problem. This is why we all use them. They are the middle man and offered some (false) layer of protection.
> 
> It frustrates me that they have created an entire business around lowering risk in these transactions being the intermediary, yet some seem willing to excuse them for not having plans in place when something goes majorly wrong. Yes this scenario is huge and unprecedented, but it appears they are flying by the seat of their pants even when the closure was 2 weeks.
> Surely that should have been planned for in some way, even just a single resort. What if a fire took out a DVC resort?



How much overhead would they have had to have added to the reservation to be able to have cash to cover the possibility that months of reservations would be cancelled?  The amount they would have needed to charge you to have the business model you suggest they have would have made it price prohibitive to rent points - CRO would become a much much more attractive option.  With a DVC rental you get a good deal, but part of the good deal involves risk.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

VeroGuy said:


> It doesn’t but it has been mentioned on here that an argument can be made that DVCM is an extension of the owner and acted on behalf of the owner and still is.  Most resorts have announced reopening dates in Florida but crickets are coming from DVCM and Disney. Yes the logistics of opening these resorts may be more complex but no statement is a statement. You have owners who are losing value In their membership by the day with no response from the management company an owner trusted would act in their best interest. Has any owner reached out to DVCM and asked for an explanation or a time frame for when their timeshare will be made available to them? Serious question.



I really like the thought and will extend to the possibility that as a "RESORT" no DVC property is being evaluated for opening outside the larger package of opening parks as well.  To me this is another sign that the management company needs a real review on decision making v the taking of orders to help the larger business and its profitability.

Many FL resorts never closed.  DVC was not required to be closed by the emergency and so saying it was 'cover' merely means that what was really going on is unseen.  Owners are entitled to see what is underneath the 'cover'.  Our financial situations and 'fiduciary' require it.

  DVC is owned (obviously) by the owners who never voted or were consulted about closing.  Clearly this is a major decision, a material decision.  As far as I have seen, and I have looked there is literally no indication management looked at staying open without the parks.  If resorts staying open would have mitigated even minimum costs we should know.  It seems that protecting the larger DISNEY was more important.

This is not remotely like a fiduciary and barely a 'reasonable business decision'.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

crisi said:


> How much overhead would they have had to have added to the reservation to be able to have cash to cover the possibility that months of reservations would be cancelled?  The amount they would have needed to charge you to have the business model you suggest they have would have made it price prohibitive to rent points - CRO would become a much much more attractive option.  With a DVC rental you get a good deal, but part of the good deal involves risk.



So what exactly is the point of the intermediary, besides matchmaking?

There is a lot of downside to a DVC rental. Most renters accept these happily. They include more difficulty booking, planning further out needed, subject to availability of both DVC and a suitable owner (a big one, as it makes getting certain desirable resorts/times very difficult), inability to modify, inability to cancel, lack of housekeeping, lack of ability to add things like DDP or requests without doing it through a third party, and any other glaring ones I’m missing. The discount over Disney rates is hardly that large that it should account for the loss of the entire reservation and your money through no fault of your own, IMO.

Even if they should not be expected to have cash reserves on hand, they clearly had no plan in place for a scenario even approaching the magnitude of this one. They did not have this written into their contracts, like some private owners have show us they do, leading to the unprecedented move to back off the no refund policy. They did not have a system in place to facilitate communication between renter and owner to resolve issues. The voucher program was created on the fly. Those of us with early reservations saw tons of wishy washy answers and different rules depending on who you talked to since they really had no idea what to do. So as renters, we’re supposed to anticipate the chance of this and “accept the risk” but the intermediary who has made a living in this space was okay to carry on accepting that most reservations go off without a hitch and he’ll cross that bridge when he comes to it, I guess.


----------



## Cyberc1978

Dang. It’s very hard to keep up with this thread. If you don’t read it for a few hours, all of a sudden there are 4 more pages of updates


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Short summary, a force majeure clause and spelling out in contracts exactly who would owe who what, if anything is owed, would have covered David’s behind and protected from a lot of this aggravation. This is not unheard of, we have DIS posters who have it written into their own private contracts.

So renters should accept renting risk, owners should know better than to use points nearing expiry and should “follow their hearts”, but David’s, the leader in this space couldn’t be expected to predict this and plan for it. That doesn’t mean having a giant bank account to refund months worth of people.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Cyberc1978 said:


> Dang. It’s very hard to keep up with this thread. If you don’t read it for a few hours, all of a sudden there are 4 more pages of updates



I seem to lose it for a few days when I miss clicking the notification once, then I come back to pages and pages missed.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I really like the thought and will extend to the possibility that as a "RESORT" no DVC property is being evaluated for opening outside the larger package of opening parks as well.  To me this is another sign that the management company needs a real review on decision making v the taking of orders to help the larger business and its profitability.
> 
> Many FL resorts never closed.  DVC was not required to be closed by the emergency and so saying it was 'cover' merely means that what was really going on is unseen.  Owners are entitled to see what is underneath the 'cover'.  Our financial situations and 'fiduciary' require it.
> 
> DVC is owned (obviously) by the owners who never voted or were consulted about closing.  Clearly this is a major decision, a material decision.  As far as I have seen, and I have looked there is literally no indication management looked at staying open without the parks.  If resorts staying open would have mitigated even minimum costs we should know.  It seems that protecting the larger DISNEY was more important.
> 
> This is not remotely like a fiduciary and barely a 'reasonable business decision'.



I do think the point you need to understand is that the property management agreement right now is with Disney.  They run the resorts and from my understanding...although I have not requested a copy of it even though we can,,,is that terms of this played a role as well in supporting the closure,

So, if Disney as property managers had the ability to not provide staff, which is what was implied..then DVCM cant force them to.

Trying to get DVCM replaced or a change in who is hired as a property manager is not something easily done.  In order for the board vote of the unit to be dictated by owners....not just our representative...60% of all owners of that specific unit have to agree on what that vote would be.  Trying to find all the owners of a unit, then contacting them, then getting them at least 60% of them to agree on how to vote...each unit gets only one vote...would be near impossible,  And that is just for one unit at a resort.  To make any real changes, this would have to be done for every unit at every resort,

This is off topic so I will leave it there, but DVD set this up in such a way that as owners, we have very little power in deciding who runs things,,,and to be honest, most DVC owners are probably oblivious to all of this and have no issue with how things are done.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Don't mistake my point here.  I agree that renters were potentially the losers more in this situation, OUTSIDE the CC.  But there is a CC.  If David tried to force the no refund policy then the CC would have ended his business.  Period.

In short and a nutshell the CC enforces the legal 'impossible to perform' standard outside of court and outside mitigation of losses.   This also covers the 'owners closed it due to management' issue.  CC simple at the core.  You paid for a place to stay.  If you didn't get it and it wasn't your fault you get the money back.  If the room was not there it doesn't matter to CC if it was because of the 'owners' or 'management' or 'hurricane' or C19.  It would only matter if it was the renters fault because the renter didn't get what you paid for.

There is no fault on renters here and outside something changing the no refund policy; David losses all.  Maybe someone better at numbers could figure this amount but I don't see anyway the CC does not force David to bankruptcy.  A bankrupt David is not a help to anyone.  The court and trustees do not move fast and while it is dangerous to say what a court would do without extensive experience in that court in an environment of expiring points bankruptcy would have made things far worse.  Eg, It leaves some owners with a double dip and some with unpaid money due from David.

"INTERMEDIARY" then is key.   David exists to make money matching owners and renters.  There is no other point to David.  I can't imagine a scenario where an intermediary allows, much less facilitates direct owner/renter contacts. It would liken to MickeyD referring hamburger customers to the king.

As for no plan..... look from the converse side on effective plans or even any plan.  Did Disney have a plan?  Did the federal government have a plan?  Any of 50 state governments or thousands of local governments?  The airline industry?  As businesses did fox or cnn or msnbc have plans?  The other intermediaries?

Nobody had a plan for this and while people can 'post' they had it covered in their contract the real possibility that it was impossible to check in would void their contracts as well.  Without seeing those contracts my gut feeling is if paid by CC then the renters get their  money back.  the key to the private contracts is the sense of fairness and willingness to work the problem out.



DGsAtBLT said:


> So what exactly is the point of the intermediary, besides matchmaking?
> 
> There is a lot of downside to a DVC rental. Most renters accept these happily. They include more difficulty booking, planning further out needed, subject to availability of both DVC and a suitable owner (a big one, as it makes getting certain desirable resorts/times very difficult), inability to modify, inability to cancel, lack of housekeeping, lack of ability to add things like DDP or requests without doing it through a third party, and any other glaring ones I’m missing. The discount over Disney rates is hardly that large that it should account for the loss of the entire reservation and your money through no fault of your own, IMO.
> 
> Even if they should not be expected to have cash reserves on hand, they clearly had no plan in place for a scenario even approaching the magnitude of this one. They did not have this written into their contracts, like some private owners have show us they do, leading to the unprecedented move to back off the no refund policy. They did not have a system in place to facilitate communication between renter and owner to resolve issues. The voucher program was created on the fly. Those of us with early reservations saw tons of wishy washy answers and different rules depending on who you talked to since they really had no idea what to do. So as renters, we’re supposed to anticipate the chance of this and “accept the risk” but the intermediary who has made a living in this space was okay to carry on accepting that most reservations go off without a hitch and he’ll cross that bridge when he comes to it, I guess.


----------



## Bing Showei

Sandisw said:


> Again, not all owners would have been willing to refund, but Davids stopped them for one reason only,,,so he didn’t have to refund th e the money,,,





CanadaDisney05 said:


> *This is a major jump in logic. Without knowing all of the details it's impossible to know for sure*, but there are plenty of other reasons (some of which I already laid out in this thread) for why he didn't allow owners to refund the cash to renters.


And this...


CanadaDisney05 said:


> it could take a year before they'd be able to resolve all of these issues, *with the vast majority of owners probably not willing to refund the renters anyways*.


Pot, meet kettle.

And this after the repeated admissions that you have not read the entirety of this thread, nor have you taken the time to understand the legal language and contractual obligations between David's and the owner and David's and the renter. You even seemed to not understand how those contractual structures make it matter NOTHING whether or not an owner sends money back.

Despite all of this, you continue to shill for David's despite proclamations that you're not defending his actions; deflecting blame from David's does exactly that. Portraying the multi-million dollar company (sole proprietorship notwithstanding) as a poor struggling business owner who's making best efforts to save his little mom & pop business is far more destructive narrative than any assertions you may have read from owners you believe to be acting entitled.

You also push owners to come up with a solution, yet absolve David's the from the piss poor decisions they made every step of the way which include:
- preventing owners from working directly with renters despite repeated requests
- insisting that owners allow Disney to cancel the reservation as opposed to proactively canceling reservations that would require a refund (this continues today for May reservations)
- turning around and suggesting that owner are liable for the actions of DVCMC

The list goes on.

I sympathize with renters. More than that, I believe they *are* owed a reservation that doesn't come replete with all the risks that David's is now refusing to shoulder. David's then goes on to additionally shift risk to owners in case of another shutdown.

You have to look at the actions of this company as a whole to recognize that they are either doing everything they can in the name of self-preservation to come out of this taking on the least amount of financial exposure as possible, or it is so incompetently run, that they don't see how these actions will doom their business.

This isn't just a contract issue, it's an issue of a company that doesn't seem to understand how demonstrating some good will (as opposed to just asking others to do it from their "hears" on their behalf) will go a long way. Any decent business owner knows without your customers, you are nothing. That voucher is a big **** you to every renter. If not calculated, it is the epitome of destroying your brand; shooting oneself in the foot. If David's are struggling to survive, they will be more responsible for their own demise than any virus.


----------



## cmrdgrs

A lot of what is being discussed here is a rehashing.  JMHO, but I really think that part of the problem with working out a solution is tied to software.  I don't work for David and I know nothing about David's software, but from what has been posted here, I think his software cannot do some of the things that would help him help renters and owners.

David doesn't even seem to have a basic understanding of what the status of points were that were used to book the various renters (i.e. current UY points, banked points from 2018 or 2019, or borrowed points).  I say this because owners have posted emails form David asking these questions to the owner about the points the owner gave David and he used from those owners to book rooms for renters.

Without this basic knowledge on the points renters reservations were made with finding a way out of this is a huge mess.  Again, just my opinion, but it's one of the reasons the only way out of this is to issue a voucher to the renter.  It just seems like his is clueless about how the reservations where made.  I could be completely wrong, but from what has been posted here, that what seems to be true in my eyes.


----------



## SherylLC

Marionnette said:


> Evil? Self-interested and short-sighted is more like it.
> 
> I think I’ve said it before, as a small business owner I know that if you have good business practices, and make your customer happy, they will tell 2-5 people how wonderful you are. *Piss off just one customer and they will tell the whole internet about your poor treatment of them!*


This is so true! People don't even have to be slighted, they just need to fell slighted and off they go with internet review revenge. Has this started with David's business yet? On Facebook he has made himself look like a saint. Has he been reported anywhere else?


----------



## Krandor

Want to add a news item that is tangentally related.   Many people have had their trip insurance say they are not going to pay out.  Well, in Georgia, a dentist is trying to start a class action against his business insurance company for denying a business interruption claim due to COVID.  

I have a feeling we are going to see more lawsuits like this against insurance companies denying claims over COVID. Legal seafood has filed one as well.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/cobb...-coronavirus-business/LdcgmYmpKQu1nxG6jRLJEM/


----------



## crisi

DGsAtBLT said:


> So what exactly is the point of the intermediary, besides matchmaking?
> 
> There is a lot of downside to a DVC rental. Most renters accept these happily. They include more difficulty booking, planning further out needed, subject to availability of both DVC and a suitable owner (a big one, as it makes getting certain desirable resorts/times very difficult), inability to modify, inability to cancel, lack of housekeeping, lack of ability to add things like DDP or requests without doing it through a third party, and any other glaring ones I’m missing. The discount over Disney rates is hardly that large that it should account for the loss of the entire reservation and your money through no fault of your own, IMO.
> 
> Even if they should not be expected to have cash reserves on hand, they clearly had no plan in place for a scenario even approaching the magnitude of this one. They did not have this written into their contracts, like some private owners have show us they do, leading to the unprecedented move to back off the no refund policy. They did not have a system in place to facilitate communication between renter and owner to resolve issues. The voucher program was created on the fly. Those of us with early reservations saw tons of wishy washy answers and different rules depending on who you talked to since they really had no idea what to do. So as renters, we’re supposed to anticipate the chance of this and “accept the risk” but the intermediary who has made a living in this space was okay to carry on accepting that most reservations go off without a hitch and he’ll cross that bridge when he comes to it, I guess.



For renters:
Matchmaking is why many people use them
You won't get scammed by an owner - this situation is not getting scammed.
You won't be out your money if an owner doesn't pay their dues or sells their contract
You get a great room at a great price - but WITH SOME RISK.   Don't like that risk, you should have rented via CRO.

For owners:
Ease in rental
Not having to deal with the renters themselves
A fair price per point

Our GOVERNMENT had no plan in place for a scenario on this scale.  Most major companies were (and many still are) scrambling.  It took three weeks for Wells Fargo to get a friend of mine a laptop so she could work from home.  And you expect a small business to have planned for it and have set the reserves aside?   That's a nice thought, but it isn't reality based.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Krandor said:


> Want to add a news item that is tangentally related.   Many people have had their trip insurance say they are not going to pay out.  Well, in Georgia, a dentist is trying to start a class action against his business insurance company for denying a business interruption claim due to COVID.
> 
> I have a feeling we are going to see more lawsuits like this against insurance companies denying claims over COVID. Legal seafood has filed one as well.
> 
> https://www.ajc.com/news/local/cobb...-coronavirus-business/LdcgmYmpKQu1nxG6jRLJEM/



It is literally impossible for a 'normal' person to read this insurance jibber dash where 'cancel for any reason' means something quite different and be protected.  I have not found the person who allegedly got paid yet.  I was hoping someone might step up and say 'yes it was me'.

Insurance companies spend hundred of millions of dollars and employ upteen lawyers and marketing and 'word play' pros to see the product sell and an equal amount to avoid paying.

I can laugh now but once I had a computer stolen in GA and the insurance company denied coverage because it was not in the world at the time.  In writing.  In my experience people pushing insurance as a solution have either never had an insurance claim that was not an every day thousands of times a day claim or they get money in some way from insurance.


----------



## crisi

Bing Showei said:


> Despite all of this, you continue to shill for David's despite proclamations that you're not defending his actions; deflecting blame from David's does exactly that. Portraying the multi-million dollar company (sole proprietorship notwithstanding) as a poor struggling business owner who's making best efforts to save his little mom & pop business is far more destructive narrative than any assertions you may have read from owners you believe to be acting entitled.



I own a multi million dollar company - well, me and my business partner do.  This year I might clear $40k - most of which I'll take in salary to meet my IRS obligations to actually pay myself.  It isn't like I would be in a position to make any of my consultants whole if their contract with my client were to end early due to business circumstances.  So we sign contracts for six months or a year - but reality is that the contract terms all have an out - the client can't sue us if our consultant leaves - because it isn't slavery and life happens - we had a consultant end a contract early last year due to cancer.  And our contractors can't sue us if the client declares bankruptcy and lets them go before their term is up (as happened with one of our clients in March).  

We expect that the consultant and the client will do their best to meet the start and end date of the contract.  But no one is going to court if that doesn't happen because life happens and it isn't worth anyone's attorney's fees - you can't get blood from a stone.  

A multi million dollar company merely means millions pass through my hands every year.  I keep very little of it.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

crisi said:


> For renters:
> Matchmaking is why many people use them
> You won't get scammed by an owner - this situation is not getting scammed.
> You won't be out your money if an owner doesn't pay their dues or sells their contract
> You get a great room at a great price - but WITH SOME RISK.   Don't like that risk, you should have rented via CRO.
> 
> For owners:
> Ease in rental
> Not having to deal with the renters themselves
> A fair price per point
> 
> Our GOVERNMENT had no plan in place for a scenario on this scale.  Most major companies were (and many still are) scrambling.  It took three weeks for Wells Fargo to get a friend of mine a laptop so she could work from home.  And you expect a small business to have planned for it and have set the reserves aside?   That's a nice thought, but it isn't reality based.



Being out a reservation and all your money through no decision of your own (ie. wanting to cancel) has never been the referred to risk of renting through David’s and I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to act as such.

David’s couldn’t have prepared for this (there are ways beyond months worth of cash reserves, like the clauses our very own DISers have written into their contracts), the entire US government is getting a pass, but individual renters should have accepted this as risk or gone cash through Disney instead? Okay.


----------



## cmrdgrs

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> <snip...>  "INTERMEDIARY" then is key.   David exists to make money matching owners and renters.  There is no other point to David.  <...snip>



You are 100% correct.  David (and all brokers) are _*overpaid*_ match makers.  Owners that used them think for some reason they are "protected" (what has been a shock to some owners) we have learned is _*brokers protect nothing*_. They are just way, way, way overpaid match makers for owners that are not interested in finding their own renters. Basically a 25% commission on a match making transaction? PLUS zero protection?

Is some cases for renters what you have [hopefully] learned is that working with a solid owner is 100% better than dealing with a high paid broker.  An owner can do things for you that a broker cannot.  But, there is work to be done on the renters part too in order to find that "solid" owner, so working with the broker was easier from them as well.

And let us not forget the cancelled reservations from the past that have been buried by David.  It's always unicorns and rainbows when you deal with him.  Even now on his FB page he is manipulating bad press -- so renters are fooled and continue to be fooled.



dsnymnkyuncle said:


> <snip...>  Nobody had a plan for this and while people can 'post' they had it covered in their contract the real possibility that it was impossible to check would void their contracts as well.  <...snip>



I can agree with you that nobody saw a pandemic coming.  However, some owners at least tell their renters what type of points they rented (current UY, banked 2018 or 2019, borrowed points) and the consequence of what could happen in an emergency.  Some owners do educate their renters on the points they are renting -- clearly David did none of this.  Some owners had a force majeure clause in their contracts -- which David didn't.  That was a pretty huge oversight on his part.  Also some owners don't spend the money until the renter checks in.  Since David can't seem to refund any portion of the money paid to him by the renter it's assumed he doesn't have it to give.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

cmrdgrs said:


> You are 100% correct.  David (and all brokers) are _*overpaid*_ match makers.  Owners that used them think for some reason they are "protected" (what has been a shock to some owners) we have learned is _*brokers protect nothing*_. They are just way, way, way overpaid match makers for owners that are not interested in finding their own renters. Basically a 25% commission on a match making transaction? PLUS zero protection?
> 
> Is some cases for renters what you have [hopefully] learned is that working with a solid owner is 100% better than dealing with a high paid broker.  An owner can do things for you that a broker cannot.  But, there is work to be done on the renters part too in order to find that "solid" owner, so working with the broker was easier from them as well.
> 
> And let us not forget the cancelled reservations from the past that have been buried by David.  It's always unicorns and rainbows when you deal with him.  Even now on his FB page he is manipulating bad press -- so renters are fooled and continue to be fooled.
> 
> 
> 
> I can agree with you that nobody saw a pandemic coming.  However, some owners at least tell their renters what type of points they rented (current UY, banked 2018 or 2019, borrowed points) and the consequence of what could happen in an emergency.  Some owners do educate their renters on the points they are renting -- clearly David did none of this.  Some owners had a force majeure clause in their contracts -- which David didn't.  That was a pretty huge oversight on his part.  Also some owners don't spend the money until the renter checks in.  Since David can't seem to refund any portion of the money paid to him by the renter it's assumed he doesn't have it to give.



Can you expand on the cancelled reservations in the past? I don’t think I know what you’re referring to.


----------



## crisi

DGsAtBLT said:


> Being out a reservation and all your money through no decision of your own (ie. wanting to cancel) has never been the referred to risk of renting through David’s and I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to act as such.
> 
> David’s couldn’t have prepared for this (there are ways beyond months worth of cash reserves, like the clauses our very own DISers have written into their contracts), the entire US government is getting a pass, but individual renters should have accepted this as risk or gone cash through Disney instead? Okay.



It was never spelled out....it was ALWAYS a risk.  9/11 should have taught us that.   What if there had been a mass shooting in Downtown Disney.  Or a bomb exploding on Space Mountain.  Caveat Emptor - David was not responsible for spelling out all of your risk.  

Why do renters THINK they were getting this great deal?  They were getting this great deal because there was RISK.


----------



## cmrdgrs

SherylLC said:


> This is so true! People don't even have to be slighted, they just need to fell slighted and off they go with internet review revenge. Has this started with David's business yet? On Facebook he has made himself look like a saint. Has he been reported anywhere else?


He looks like a saint on FB because he deletes anything negative that gets written.  He isn't on Yelp.  Probably not on Google reviews.  His main presence is on FB which he can 100% control.  On the BBB site I just don't think people think to write there, I saw, like, three reviews.  One from someone who's owner cancelled on them and they were left without a reservation.  On their David replied in defense, but that's about it from what I see.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

crisi said:


> It was never spelled out....it was ALWAYS a risk.  9/11 should have taught us that.   What if there had been a mass shooting in Downtown Disney.  Or a bomb exploding on Space Mountain.  Caveat Emptor - David was not responsible for spelling out all of your risk.
> 
> Why do renters THINK they were getting this great deal?  They were getting this great deal because there was RISK.



Like I have said multiple times, there is tons of downside and risk that comes with renting that is generally accepted.

If these contracts are sound and the renters shoulder all the risk, can I ask why David’s has made the decisions they have including but not limited to angering owners trying to get money back, and losing out real cash having to pay out new owners when vouchers are used, if this should all have been known risk renters accepted? They are pretty obviously giving vouchers to stop the immediate bleeding and spread it over time, flattening the bleeding curve if you will, because they disagree with you and believe renters are owed something.


----------



## cmrdgrs

DGsAtBLT said:


> Can you expand on the cancelled reservations in the past? I don’t think I know what you’re referring to.


Renters have been left without a reservation due to owner cancellations.  No one knows how often this has happened because brokers bury it.  One example I could find was on the BBB site.  It has and does happen.  I'm not saying that the broker doesn't work to fix it, but it does happen.


----------



## McCrae

VeroGuy said:


> It doesn’t but it has been mentioned on here that an argument can be made that DVCM is an extension of the owner and acted on behalf of the owner and still is.
> 
> Most resorts have announced reopening dates in Florida but crickets are coming from DVCM and Disney. Yes the logistics of opening these resorts may be more complex but no statement is a statement. You have owners who are losing value In their membership by the day with no response from the management company an owner trusted would act in their best interest. Has any owner reached out to DVCM and asked for an explanation or a time frame for when their timeshare will be made available to them? Serious question.



Most people understand that Disney probably know as much as you and I when it comes to how long resorts will be impacted. No one knows. As an owner I no complaints in how they are dealing with this problem and I wouldn't be asking them questions I know they can't answer.  We all need to have a bit of patience.


----------



## crisi

cmrdgrs said:


> Renters have been left without a reservation due to owner cancellations.  No one knows how often this has happened because brokers bury it.  One example I could find was on the BBB site.  It has and does happen.  I'm not saying that the broker doesn't work to fix it, but it does happen.



Yep, and that is the risk a broker covers - but only by being able to refund your money.  He cannot make reservations appear out of thin air.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Additionally, David is very fierce about protecting his image.  IMO, he has posters who misrepresent themselves a "regular" people when they in fact are really working for David.  IMO, they infiltrate different Disney boards working things to their advantage.

I am a poster on a different board that has been attacked by David (or a representative of his by his screen name on that board) in the past whenever I have lobbied that working with an owner direct is 100% better than a broker.  I have been slammed in the past by David.

It's really one of the main reasons I have ZERO sympathy for him.  All I said in the past has come true.  My renters got their money back in full.  David's renters are basically screwed IMO -- so Mr. Broker -- time to put your money where your mouth is.  You touted protection all those years in the past, where is it?


----------



## McCrae

DGsAtBLT said:


> Like I have said multiple times, there is tons of downside and risk that comes with renting that is generally accepted.
> 
> If these contracts are sound and the renters shoulder all the risk, can I ask why David’s has made the decisions they have including but not limited to angering owners trying to get money back, and losing out real cash having to pay out new owners when vouchers are used, if this should all have been known risk renters accepted? They are pretty obviously giving vouchers to stop the immediate bleeding and spread it over time, flattening the bleeding curve if you will, because they disagree with you and believe renters are owed something.



David states he is trying to help renters impacted by this because he wants to help them, not because he is obligated to. 

My communications from David's have been civil, he hasn't demanded anything. He has asked if I would be willing to help renters caught up in this, by either returning money paid or agreeing to re-rent points.  It's very clear it's my choice to do this or nothing.


----------



## Marionnette

DGsAtBLT said:


> Can you expand on the cancelled reservations in the past? I don’t think I know what you’re referring to.


From 2015:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/advice-needed-room-canceled-accidentally.3419687/
Also, posted in 2017:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/e...ntal-from-trusted-site.3654850/#post-58617667


----------



## crisi

cmrdgrs said:


> Additionally, David is very fierce about protecting his image.  IMO, he has posters who misrepresent themselves a "regular" people when they in fact are really working for David.  IMO, they infiltrate different Disney boards working things to their advantage.
> 
> I am a poster on a different board that has been attacked by David (or a representative of his by his screen name on that board) in the past whenever I have lobbied that working with an owner direct is 100% better than a broker.  I have been slammed in the past by David.
> 
> It's really one of the main reasons I have ZERO sympathy for him.  All I said in the past has come true.  My renters got their money back in full.  David's renters are basically screwed IMO -- so Mr. Broker -- time to put your money where your mouth is.  You touted protection all those years in the past, where is it?



I honestly don't care one way or the other about David.  Nor do I have a particular emotional investment in the owners or the renters. I had a good rental through David, I'd use his services again if available, but I'm not a shill for him any more than I'm a shill for Disney.

I just think people are not being realistic in what can happen, or will happen.   Realistically..... David's will go under.  Owners will, for the most part - pocket what they have received and won't get any more.  Renters will be out reservations.  There will not be a company to get your money out of.  

Does anyone remember a few years ago when Thomas Cook - the British travel agency went under - a lot of people simply lost their vacations and their money?    There isn't much "should" in these circumstances, there simple is what "is."


----------



## Krandor

crisi said:


> I honestly don't care one way or the other about David.  Nor do I have a particular emotional investment in the owners or the renters. I had a good rental through David, I'd use his services again if available, but I'm not a shill for him any more than I'm a shill for Disney.
> 
> I just think people are not being realistic in what can happen, or will happen.   Realistically..... David's will go under.  Owners will, for the most part - pocket what they have received and won't get any more.  Renters will be out reservations.  There will not be a company to get your money out of.
> 
> Does anyone remember a few years ago when Thomas Cook - the British travel agency went under - a lot of people simply lost their vacations and their money?    There isn't much "should" in these circumstances, there simple is what "is."



I agree with the assessment of what is likely to happen which is why I think renters affected should do chargebacks.  It is their most likely way to get any off their money back while they are still in business.


----------



## SherylLC

cmrdgrs said:


> David doesn't even seem to have a basic understanding of what the status of points were that were used to book the various renters (i.e. current UY points, banked points from 2018 or 2019, or borrowed points).  I say this because owners have posted emails form David asking these questions to the owner about the points the owner gave David and he used from those owners to book rooms for renters.
> 
> Without this basic knowledge on the points renters reservations were made with finding a way out of this is a huge mess.  Again, just my opinion, but it's one of the reasons the only way out of this is to issue a voucher to the renter.  It just seems like his is clueless about how the reservations where made.  I could be completely wrong, but from what has been posted here, that what seems to be true in my eyes.


Believe me, David has been doing this for a very long time and he knows EXACTLY what points are from which use year, which will expire, banked/borrowed, etc. because it's part of the contract an owner fills out when they offer their points. He's dialed in.

Also, someone mentioned he's also an owner, so I'm thoroughly confident he gets it.


----------



## crisi

Krandor said:


> I agree with the assessment of what is likely to happen which is why I think renters affected should do chargebacks.  It is their most likely way to get any off their money back while they are still in business.



If you can do so.....I think in a lot of cases, you won't be successful.  But yes, if your credit card company will let you do a chargeback, go for it.  Paypal probably won't, but its worth trying.


----------



## Marionnette

SherylLC said:


> Believe me, David has been doing this for a very long time and he knows EXACTLY what points are from which use year, which will expire, banked/borrowed, etc. because it's part of the contract an owner fills out when they offer their points. He's dialed in.
> 
> Also, someone mentioned he's also an owner, so I'm thoroughly confident he gets it.


Oh, I firmly believe that asking an owner to supply the status of the points used is nothing more than a stall tactic. David’s knows exactly how many points came from banking, borrowing or current UYs and what UY they came from. The only time there might be some degree of ambiguity would be if the owner made multiple reservations for David’s.


----------



## Krandor

SherylLC said:


> Believe me, David has been doing this for a very long time and he knows EXACTLY what points are from which use year, which will expire, banked/borrowed, etc. because it's part of the contract an owner fills out when they offer their points. He's dialed in.
> 
> Also, someone mentioned he's also an owner, so I'm thoroughly confident he gets it.



So he's my question then.. if he has all this information does he try to make up owners and renters into the safest transactions possible (not end of UY, etc) just in the event something happened that points would still be in good shape or did he just figure his no refund thing was good enough?


----------



## cmrdgrs

SherylLC said:


> Believe me, David has been doing this for a very long time and he knows EXACTLY what points are from which use year, which will expire, banked/borrowed, etc. because it's part of the contract an owner fills out when they offer their points. He's dialed in.
> 
> Also, someone mentioned he's also an owner, so I'm thoroughly confident he gets it.


I'm not questioning his DVC knowledge.  I'm questioning can he pull a report, from his system, that shows him for every rental what type of points that renter used for their reservation?

If he knows what type of points that were used for which renters, why is he sending emails asking owners for this information?  I'll find the post with the email.  I have to go back through the thread.


----------



## dwight16

i have a trip paid for Via davids for july at Aulani i see his site is basically shut down and his phones are off excellent sign.  i cant read 156 pages of this post but i would imagine if things dont work out and since hawaii is currently arresting people who come there and leave there rooms and Aulani is not open currently its not looking great.  Now that being said if the resort is open and i choose not to go i am out of luck.  Insurance would not cover that unless i am sick so its a personal choice to walk away.  on the other hand if the resort is closed when what?  i did have some luck with AMEX disputing charges with some companies that would not issue refunds.  that would be a tactic used if this does not work out and davids is crickets.  remember he holds back 25%  is he at least offering that back to people? these credit card companies would side with the customer at least in the short term and this would cause davids to go bankrupt extremely fast.  the CC company takes out the money from their account right way while its being investigated.


----------



## starry_solo

Krandor said:


> Want to add a news item that is tangentally related.   Many people have had their trip insurance say they are not going to pay out.  Well, in Georgia, a dentist is trying to start a class action against his business insurance company for denying a business interruption claim due to COVID.
> 
> I have a feeling we are going to see more lawsuits like this against insurance companies denying claims over COVID. Legal seafood has filed one as well.
> 
> https://www.ajc.com/news/local/cobb...-coronavirus-business/LdcgmYmpKQu1nxG6jRLJEM/



I'm on a class action lawsuit mailing list and I got an email about this specific issue (not the dentist, but business interruption insurance lawsuits) a few weeks ago.  Crazy....


----------



## cmrdgrs

@.SherylLC

Post #2861 (from user knockUout)

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...r-rescheduling.3796922/page-144#post-61861790
Email from David asking the owner for details on the points they rented.  IMO, if David has all this information at his fingertips he wouldn't need to send this email.  So, you tell me, why is he collecting this information if he already has it all?


----------



## SageG

cmrdgrs said:


> Post #2861 (from user knockUout)
> 
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...r-rescheduling.3796922/page-144#post-61861790
> Email from David asking the owner for details on the points they rented.  IMO, if David has all this information at his fingertips he wouldn't need to send this email.  So, you tell me, why is he collecting this information if he already has it all?


Renter here.  My reservations were made back in August 2019.  The representative I was speaking with (a month ago when they were still talking to renters about rebooking) said that they didn't have UY and banking data on the underlying points for my reservation digitally.  They have it in their office in paper format, but due to local ordinances, they were not allowed to go to their office to retrieve the data.  She said they had gone through a digitization process at some point between now and August 2019, so most of the reservations she was working on had this data but the older ones like mine did not.  Take that for what it's worth.


----------



## starry_solo

cmrdgrs said:


> I'm not questioning his DVC knowledge.  I'm questioning can he pull a report, from his system, that shows him for every rental what type of points that renter used for their reservation?
> 
> If he knows what type of points that were used for which renters, why is he sending emails asking owners for this information?  I'll find the post with the email.  I have to go back through the thread.



It doesn't seem like he (David's) can....which is odd.

Here's my rough math, just for March.

2500 reservations/month
March = was closed for 1/2 the month so let's just even it out and say that in March, there were 1250 reservations left that were cancelled due to the closure.

15 days left in March (calendar days, not working days).  13-15 employees?  Let's go with 13 employees.

So, 13 employees to handle 1250 reservations (since in March, we knew they would be closed to March 31st). That's a little less than 100 reservations per person to handle in 15 days (ok, let's take out the weekends and make it 9 days.  So 11 reservations per person per day.

I don't know.  I don't see how they (David's) can't have organized records of which owners they matched up with which renters and their user year/points used.  It seems to be a simple Excel Spreadsheet (well, multiple)....

Then give each of them a personalized solution.


----------



## cm8

CanadaDisney05 said:


> the cash to renters.
> 
> 
> 
> Snip....[/QUOTE*]You can see it in this thread. By in large almost all owners believe they are entitled to the funds because it was "non refundable*", while renteres believe they are entitled to  full refund because they don't believe the non refundable applies to this situation.



What you have stated is absolutely not the case. Those of us who are Owners and Rent have bent over backwards to meet the needs of OUR Renters even if we had to take a loss because that is what you do. PERIOD. 

Don’t make us out to be greedy and self serving when it’s not even remotely the case. And furthermore, David’s workforce size has zero to do with the ability to make one’s customers whole. He could easily send an email instructing his crew to provide customer recovery even if he stands to lose a few $$$$$. 

The ones that won’t refund are within their right to do so as they have not been made whole either. Why should they have to return the $$$ when He’s still keeping what rightfully belongs to them and won’t even issue the refund back to the Renter but only willing to offer a so called voucher not worth the nothingness it’s printed on?  

It’s almost like “the nerve of the Owner to want to be made whole”while they are only interested in doing what David did, Protecting their assets at all cost. 

All this makes some people realize is that they can now cut the middleman out. 

This is all my opinion though, so take it for what it is worth


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I'm not questioning his DVC knowledge.  I'm questioning can he pull a report, from his system, that shows him for every rental what type of points that renter used for their reservation?
> 
> If he knows what type of points that were used for which renters, why is he sending emails asking owners for this information?  I'll find the post with the email.  I have to go back through the thread.



He knows the status of my points as I only offered borrowed points from my Aug UY. It’s part of the contract and it is what triggers the email asking to book a reservation.

So, somewhere he has to have the information in terms of the renters information and reservation. It wouldn’t be hard to know at least in most cases.


----------



## Marionnette

SageG said:


> Renter here.  My reservations were made back in August 2019.  The representative I was speaking with (a month ago when they were still talking to renters about rebooking) said that they didn't have UY and banking data on the underlying points for my reservation digitally.  They have it in their office in paper format, but due to local ordinances, they were not allowed to go to their office to retrieve the data.  She said they had gone through a digitization process at some point between now and August 2019, so most of the reservations she was working on had this data but the older ones like mine did not.  Take that for what it's worth.


Smoke and mirrors. Like the Wizard of Oz pushing buttons and pulling levers behind a curtain.

I can pull up an intermediary agreement email from them from last year. It specifically lists how many points are in my annual allotment, my UY, the number of points that are current, the number that are banked and the number that I was willing to borrow to complete a reservation. If I can pull up that email, why can’t they? Who prints this stuff out without keeping a digital copy, too?


----------



## cmrdgrs

starry_solo said:


> It doesn't seem like he (David's) can....which is odd.
> 
> Here's my rough math, just for March.
> 
> 2500 reservations/month
> March = was closed for 1/2 the month so let's just even it out and say that in March, there were 1250 reservations left that were cancelled due to the closure.
> 
> 15 days left in March (calendar days, not working days).  13-15 employees?  Let's go with 13 employees.
> 
> So, 13 employees to handle 1250 reservations (since in March, we knew they would be closed to March 31st). That's a little less than 100 reservations per person to handle in 15 days (ok, let's take out the weekends and make it 9 days.  So 11 reservations per person per day.
> 
> I don't know.  I don't see how they (David's) can't have organized records of which owners they matched up with which renters and their user year/points used.  It seems to be a simple Excel Spreadsheet (well, multiple)....
> 
> Then give each of them a personalized solution.


From his own email he stated he has 42 employees.

I own a software business, and for this reason, I just see the confusion/roadblock reaction from David as a software issue.  Some of this is supported IMO in the responses people posted on this thread.  It doesn't matter really, it's just my opinion, and I know many disagree.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Marionnette said:


> Smoke and mirrors. Like the Wizard of Oz pushing buttons and pulling levers behind a curtain.
> 
> I can pull up an intermediary agreement email from them from last year. It specifically lists how many points are in my annual allotment, my UY, the number of points that are current, the number that are banked and the number that I was willing to borrow to complete a reservation. If I can pull up that email, why can’t they? Who prints this stuff out without keeping a digital copy, too?


Again, it might exist in a contract/agreement on paper or digitally -- can he push a button and produce a report?  If he could do that IMO this would be flowing more smoothly for him.


----------



## Marionnette

cmrdgrs said:


> Again, it might exist in a contract/agreement on paper or digitally -- can he push a button and produce a report?  If he could do that IMO this would be flowing more smoothly for him.


He doesn’t need a full report in order to look up the information for that single owner whom he is asking to re-book a reservation. It would not be that difficult to look up that intermediary agreement email for the owner who booked for @SageG. It’s not a matter of “can’t”, it’s a matter of “won’t”.


----------



## SageG

Marionnette said:


> He doesn’t need a full report in order to look up the information for that single owner whom he is asking to re-book a reservation. It would not be that difficult to look up that intermediary agreement email for the owner who booked for @SageG. It’s not a matter of “can’t”, it’s a matter of “won’t”.


I agree.  Though the specific rep from David's that I was speaking with was trying to be helpful, it was clear management wasn't that interested in fixing things for me despite me entertaining rebooking even if my only ask was understanding the flexibility of the underlying points for my reservation.  

I even mentioned that the chargeback route would be my alternative approach if this didn't work and they still didn't jump at the opportunity of fixing my reservation for me.  They instead offered up the voucher (details weren't available at that time, only that they were being worked out) and said the voucher would be much more flexible for me than trying to rebook using the current points I rented since the expiration of those points might be much more limiting than the voucher.


----------



## crisi

cm8 said:


> What you have stated is absolutely not the case. Those of us who are Owners and Rent have bent over backwards to meet the needs of OUR Renters even if we had to take a loss because that is what you do. PERIOD.
> 
> Don’t make us out to be greedy and self serving when it’s not even remotely the case. And furthermore, David’s workforce size has zero to do with the ability to make one’s customers whole. He could easily send an email instructing his crew to provide customer recovery even if he stands to lose a few $$$$$.
> 
> The ones that won’t refund are within their right to do so as they have not been made whole either. Why should they have to return the $$$ when He’s still keeping what rightfully belongs to them and won’t even issue the refund back to the Renter but only willing to offer a so called voucher not worth the nothingness it’s printed on?
> 
> It’s almost like “the nerve of the Owner to want to be made whole”while they are only interested in doing what David did, Protecting their assets at all cost.
> 
> All this makes some people realize is that they can now cut the middleman out.
> 
> This is all my opinion though, so take it for what it is worth



Some have, some haven't.   I suspect a lot of renters are hearing that they are stuck from their private owners, but the owners aren't admitting it.  Use year happens.  Not all renters can rebook when the owner has points available.


----------



## Disneykate605

starry_solo said:


> If you stay home, the owner would still be charged the full points cost unless they found out you didn't check in and could cancel the rest of the reservation, but then those points would be put in holding.
> 
> As I understand it, once it is check in day you get no refunds of any days. So if an owner were to find out the renter never checked in there is no way for them to cancel the rest of the reservation and get points back for the remaining days...not even holding points. I'm pretty sure the cancellation rule says if you cancel the reservation between 30 - 1 days before the points go into holding. If you cancel the day of or are a no show there is no point refund given.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I print and keep copies that’s who !!


----------



## starry_solo

cmrdgrs said:


> From his own email he stated he has 42 employees.
> 
> I own a software business, and for this reason, I just see the confusion/roadblock reaction from David as a software issue.  Some of this is supported IMO in the responses people posted on this thread.  It doesn't matter really, it's just my opinion, and I know many disagree.



Wait, 42 employees?!  Dang, that is a lot.


----------



## Amymouse13

I'm not convinced David's emails are actually not just mass emails to appear he's working hard on a solution... And after he gets all the information next steps are coming... Stalling?? Perhaps just fighting sea of chargebacks.


----------



## Tiggr88

I wonder if it would help to think of David's business as being comprised of two primary services:

Brokerage
Insurance
The Brokerage is what provided many if the services we think of as any broker, matchmaking, setting/creating a marketplace, providing contracts, setting a price, etc. 

David's took this a step further though and added, promoted and marketed the insurance aspect, which was primarily directed at the renters. Many prospective renters were concerned that they would show up and the rental would not be valid/honored. David's saw a business opportunity to mitigate that risk by providing insurance in the form of a rate premium that would cover the risk that the owner, for whatever reason, didn't honor the contract leaving the renter without a room. 

However, while he may have understood and managed the brokerage side fine, he appears to have been out of his element on the insurance side. While the only risk he thought he was covering  was the owner cancelling or the reservation being cancelled due to the owner's actions (not paying MF's etc.), insurance is a tricky business and there is a reason it is usually highly regulated.  It requires the business to understand all of the risks, contemplate them throughout their contracts and set aside reserves to cover the risks. It appears that David's may have set aside funds to cover his known risks (i.e. owner cancelling) but clearly missed the risk that Disney might cancel. Because of that, he obviously did not put aside funds to cover that risk. 

While it is true that no one may have contemplated Disney mass cancelling reservations, by getting into the business of providing the insurance he really needed to have. As others have pointed out, what would have happened if one of the resorts burned down? While DVC may have been reimbursed for rebuilding, what would happen to the reservations for members and how would that have impacted the rentals? This was not considered. 

The harsh view of a competitive marketplace is that if he is facing catastrophic losses due to misunderstanding the risk, going out of business may be the right macroeconomic answer. If the brokerage and insurance model is still a profitable one going forward, then the marketplace response would be that someone else would fill the void. Poorly run businesses go out of business all the time. It is the nature of the capitalist economy. While everyone would probably be better off if he somehow stayed in business in order to mitigate the losses, based on his responses to the issue, the lack of trust with significant poprtions of the owners and renters as well as his original inability to price and reserve his risk, he may not be able to continue. 

One of the most anti-capitalist and dangerous sentiments I have heard is that businesses have a right to make a profit. They do not. All businesses have a right to try and make a profit. If they are successful they should be applauded. But if they are not, they should fail. Just as importantly, if a business is making significant profits, a competitive marketplace would expect other competitors to jump in and eventually force prices lower down to some level where the strongest will survive. Of course, that sentiment should be applied to businesses large and small, but that is a topic for a different thread. 

The bottom line is that he didn't set aside reserves for this risk and therefore probably does not have the funds to cover all of the renters who believe the contract says they should be reimbursed as well as the owners who also believe their contract says they should be paid, even if a bankruptcy court takes his personal possessions. 

Retrospectively, some (many?) people are almost certainly going to get screwed.

Prospectively, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the rental market. In theory, the risk of Disney cancelling needs to get priced into the equation, since it doesn't appear that anyone (owners, brokers, renters) have included that in their decisions to date. While renters have considered the risk of the owner cancelling and either paying insurance through a broker against this risk or accepting it and renting direct without the protection, it doesn't appear that they have included mass cancellations by Disney in their thought process. 


If owners take on the risk, then they will need to raise the price in order to make it worthwhile or the supply side will dry up, driving up the price, perhaps to a non-competitive level with Disney direct.
Alternatively, if renters have to take on the risk, they are going to want a much better discount to take on that additional risk, lowering the price to the point where the supply side will also dry up. If someone offers insurance, either in the David's model or as cancel for any reason from a real insurer, that insurance will most likely be very pricey if available at all and therefore also have the affect of raising the renter's total cost for the rental. 

I suppose it is possible that buyers and sellers will disappear in the same ration as to keep the price the same, but that doesn't seem likely. Not sure what that pricing impact will be, but I find it hard to believe that it will be status quo. Someone is taking on a previously non-contemplated risk. perhaps it will be negligible but I can't imagine renters viewing non-cancellable reservations that get impacted only if they cancel as the same as taking on the risk of Disney cancelling, either direct or through a broker. 

Of course, it may be hard to measure this affect if the economy doesn't recover and that impacts travel in general.


----------



## Bearval

Tiggr88 said:


> I wonder if it would help to think of David's business as being comprised of two primary services:
> 
> Brokerage
> Insurance
> The Brokerage is what provided many if the services we think of as any broker, matchmaking, setting/creating a marketplace, providing contracts, setting a price, etc.
> 
> David's took this a step further though and added, promoted and marketed the insurance aspect, which was primarily directed at the renters. Many prospective renters were concerned that they would show up and the rental would not be valid/honored. David's saw a business opportunity to mitigate that risk by providing insurance in the form of a rate premium that would cover the risk that the owner, for whatever reason, didn't honor the contract leaving the renter without a room.
> 
> However, while he may have understood and managed the brokerage side fine, he appears to have been out of his element on the insurance side. While the only risk he thought he was covering  was the owner cancelling or the reservation being cancelled due to the owner's actions (not paying MF's etc.), insurance is a tricky business and there is a reason it is usually highly regulated.  It requires the business to understand all of the risks, contemplate them throughout their contracts and set aside reserves to cover the risks. It appears that David's may have set aside funds to cover his known risks (i.e. owner cancelling) but clearly missed the risk that Disney might cancel. Because of that, he obviously did not put aside funds to cover that risk.
> 
> While it is true that no one may have contemplated Disney mass cancelling reservations, by getting into the business of providing the insurance he really needed to have. As others have pointed out, what would have happened if one of the resorts burned down? While DVC may have been reimbursed for rebuilding, what would happen to the reservations for members and how would that have impacted the rentals? This was not considered.
> 
> The harsh view of a competitive marketplace is that if he is facing catastrophic losses due to misunderstanding the risk, going out of business may be the right macroeconomic answer. If the brokerage and insurance model is still a profitable one going forward, then the marketplace response would be that someone else would fill the void. Poorly run businesses go out of business all the time. It is the nature of the capitalist economy. While everyone would probably be better off if he somehow stayed in business in order to mitigate the losses, based on his responses to the issue, the lack of trust with significant poprtions of the owners and renters as well as his original inability to price and reserve his risk, he may not be able to continue.
> 
> One of the most anti-capitalist and dangerous sentiments I have heard is that businesses have a right to make a profit. They do not. All businesses have a right to try and make a profit. If they are successful they should be applauded. But if they are not, they should fail. Just as importantly, if a business is making significant profits, a competitive marketplace would expect other competitors to jump in and eventually force prices lower down to some level where the strongest will survive. Of course, that sentiment should be applied to businesses large and small, but that is a topic for a different thread.
> 
> The bottom line is that he didn't set aside reserves for this risk and therefore probably does not have the funds to cover all of the renters who believe the contract says they should be reimbursed as well as the owners who also believe their contract says they should be paid, even if a bankruptcy court takes his personal possessions.
> 
> Retrospectively, some (many?) people are almost certainly going to get screwed.
> 
> Prospectively, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the rental market. In theory, the risk of Disney cancelling needs to get priced into the equation, since it doesn't appear that anyone (owners, brokers, renters) have included that in their decisions to date. While renters have considered the risk of the owner cancelling and either paying insurance through a broker against this risk or accepting it and renting direct without the protection, it doesn't appear that they have included mass cancellations by Disney in their thought process.
> 
> 
> If owners take on the risk, then they will need to raise the price in order to make it worthwhile or the supply side will dry up, driving up the price, perhaps to a non-competitive level with Disney direct.
> Alternatively, if renters have to take on the risk, they are going to want a much better discount to take on that additional risk, lowering the price to the point where the supply side will also dry up. If someone offers insurance, either in the David's model or as cancel for any reason from a real insurer, that insurance will most likely be very pricey if available at all and therefore also have the affect of raising the renter's total cost for the rental.
> 
> I suppose it is possible that buyers and sellers will disappear in the same ration as to keep the price the same, but that doesn't seem likely. Not sure what that pricing impact will be, but I find it hard to believe that it will be status quo. Someone is taking on a previously non-contemplated risk. perhaps it will be negligible but I can't imagine renters viewing non-cancellable reservations that get impacted only if they cancel as the same as taking on the risk of Disney cancelling, either direct or through a broker.
> 
> Of course, it may be hard to measure this affect if the economy doesn't recover and that impacts travel in general.


I don't see prices being paid to the owners going lower when they have to pay the high  maintenance fees.  After this mess any owner who consistently has excess points they need to rent most likely would sell some of their contracts to get to the level they only now need. This in turn will make less points available to rent on the secondary market ceeating a shortage.


----------



## Tiggr88

Bearval said:


> I don't see prices being paid to the owners going lower when they have to pay the high  maintenance fees.  After this mess any owner who consistently has excess points they need to rent most likely would sell some of their contracts to get to the level they only now need. This in turn will make less points available to rent on the secondary market ceeating a shortage.


I agree that may happen. We might see the same price point but with far fewer actual rentals. Works on an individual market where renters and owners work directly. It will be interesting to see if the reduction in volume makes the broker business still worthwhile, especially if no one is paying for the "insurance" and the only real service being provided is the brokerage.

I also have to believe that renters are not going to want to pay the same price tomorrow that they pay today if they have to take on the additional risk of the resort closing. I have no idea what that price difference would be, but buying a product where I am in control of whether I lose my money or not versus having someone else potentially in charge are two different things.

Of course the same goes for owners. that's why I have to believe that it will get priced in somehow or the market may significantly dry up. I don't believe it will be considered the same value as before by renters. 

There is a range of prices that is controlled on the low end by what price owners are willing to take and on the high end by what the direct alternatives are. If the economy does not rebound quickly, in a year or two if demand for vacations to Disney (and elsewhere) is down, then the price will need to reflect that as well. Either due to Disney more aggressively discounting the direct price or people deciding to stay in values or mods and not want to pay the premium for deluxe (which would lead to the discounted direct pricing as well).


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> So, if the resort is open, and the room you paid for available for check in, and you decide not to go, I am not understanding how it isn’t a default on your part?



The same way people are getting a refund for their MNSSHP tickets right now - and 125% future cruise credit even if they cancelled their cruise before Disney did under contracts they signed. Both cases it is clear that they are nonredundable (or only partially) when people decide not to go. Disney has a history of being especially accomodating when things are out of the ordinary. That's all. They're defaulting as well but are being treated as if they are not. It was worth asking.


----------



## dwight16

So I take it from some of these messages people are not getting there money back? What happens if they can’t pay the 25% to the owners and they then cancel the reservations. Have a aulani reservation for July from the looks of it I would want it open rather then trying to get a refund.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> The same way people are getting a refund for their MNSSHP tickets right now - and 125% future cruise credit even if they cancelled their cruise before Disney did under contracts they signed. Both cases it is clear that they are nonredundable (or only partially) when people decide not to go. Disney has a history of being especially accomodating when things are out of the ordinary. That's all. They're defaulting as well but are being treated as if they are not. It was worth asking.



The difference though is those guests booked with Disney, the company, who has decided to amend things.

You rented a private reservation from an individual for a savings that gave you much stricter cancellation rules than had you gone directly with Disney.

I agree it never hurts to ask if the broker would be willing to do anything to help, even when it is the renter who wants to cancel.


----------



## cmrdgrs

dwight16 said:


> So I take it from some of these messages _people are not getting there money back_? What happens if they can’t pay the 25% to the owners and they then cancel the reservations. Have a aulani reservation for July from the looks of it I would want it open rather then trying to get a refund.


I'm assume you are referring to renters?  No renters are not getting their money back from David.  They are being issued a travel voucher for future travel when a renter's reservation is cancelled due to the pandemic.  Terms of the voucher are not favorable to the renter.  Terms of the voucher are posted earlier on this thread and, I assume, will be in an email that will be sent to you from David if your reservation is cancelled.


----------



## Sandisw

dwight16 said:


> So I take it from some of these messages people are not getting there money back? What happens if they can’t pay the 25% to the owners and they then cancel the reservations. Have a aulani reservation for July from the looks of it I would want it open rather then trying to get a refund.



There are some owners who have not been paid the rest of what they are owed.

The contract doesn’t allow for owners to cancel and if they do, they risk potential issues,  

But, there is a chance an owner may choose to do it anyway, and return funds to the broker just to be done...or cancel and force broker to go after them if they feel they won’t get full payment.


----------



## cmrdgrs

Tiggr88 said:


> I wonder if it would help to think of David's business as being comprised of two primary services:
> 
> Brokerage
> Insurance
> The Brokerage is what provided many if the services we think of as any broker, matchmaking, setting/creating a marketplace, providing contracts, setting a price, etc.
> 
> David's took this a step further though and added, promoted and marketed the insurance aspect, which was primarily directed at the renters. Many prospective renters were concerned that they would show up and the rental would not be valid/honored. David's saw a business opportunity to mitigate that risk by providing insurance in the form of a rate premium that would cover the risk that the owner, for whatever reason, didn't honor the contract leaving the renter without a room.
> 
> However, while he may have understood and managed the brokerage side fine, he appears to have been out of his element on the insurance side. While the only risk he thought he was covering  was the owner cancelling or the reservation being cancelled due to the owner's actions (not paying MF's etc.), insurance is a tricky business and there is a reason it is usually highly regulated.  It requires the business to understand all of the risks, contemplate them throughout their contracts and set aside reserves to cover the risks. It appears that David's may have set aside funds to cover his known risks (i.e. owner cancelling) but clearly missed the risk that Disney might cancel. Because of that, he obviously did not put aside funds to cover that risk.
> 
> While it is true that no one may have contemplated Disney mass cancelling reservations, by getting into the business of providing the insurance he really needed to have. As others have pointed out, what would have happened if one of the resorts burned down? While DVC may have been reimbursed for rebuilding, what would happen to the reservations for members and how would that have impacted the rentals? This was not considered.
> 
> The harsh view of a competitive marketplace is that if he is facing catastrophic losses due to misunderstanding the risk, going out of business may be the right macroeconomic answer. If the brokerage and insurance model is still a profitable one going forward, then the marketplace response would be that someone else would fill the void. Poorly run businesses go out of business all the time. It is the nature of the capitalist economy. While everyone would probably be better off if he somehow stayed in business in order to mitigate the losses, based on his responses to the issue, the lack of trust with significant poprtions of the owners and renters as well as his original inability to price and reserve his risk, he may not be able to continue.
> 
> One of the most anti-capitalist and dangerous sentiments I have heard is that businesses have a right to make a profit. They do not. All businesses have a right to try and make a profit. If they are successful they should be applauded. But if they are not, they should fail. Just as importantly, if a business is making significant profits, a competitive marketplace would expect other competitors to jump in and eventually force prices lower down to some level where the strongest will survive. Of course, that sentiment should be applied to businesses large and small, but that is a topic for a different thread.
> 
> The bottom line is that he didn't set aside reserves for this risk and therefore probably does not have the funds to cover all of the renters who believe the contract says they should be reimbursed as well as the owners who also believe their contract says they should be paid, even if a bankruptcy court takes his personal possessions.
> 
> Retrospectively, some (many?) people are almost certainly going to get screwed.
> 
> Prospectively, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the rental market. In theory, the risk of Disney cancelling needs to get priced into the equation, since it doesn't appear that anyone (owners, brokers, renters) have included that in their decisions to date. While renters have considered the risk of the owner cancelling and either paying insurance through a broker against this risk or accepting it and renting direct without the protection, it doesn't appear that they have included mass cancellations by Disney in their thought process.
> 
> 
> If owners take on the risk, then they will need to raise the price in order to make it worthwhile or the supply side will dry up, driving up the price, perhaps to a non-competitive level with Disney direct.
> Alternatively, if renters have to take on the risk, they are going to want a much better discount to take on that additional risk, lowering the price to the point where the supply side will also dry up. If someone offers insurance, either in the David's model or as cancel for any reason from a real insurer, that insurance will most likely be very pricey if available at all and therefore also have the affect of raising the renter's total cost for the rental.
> 
> I suppose it is possible that buyers and sellers will disappear in the same ration as to keep the price the same, but that doesn't seem likely. Not sure what that pricing impact will be, but I find it hard to believe that it will be status quo. Someone is taking on a previously non-contemplated risk. perhaps it will be negligible but I can't imagine renters viewing non-cancellable reservations that get impacted only if they cancel as the same as taking on the risk of Disney cancelling, either direct or through a broker.
> 
> Of course, it may be hard to measure this affect if the economy doesn't recover and that impacts travel in general.


I think the general flaw in that you posted here is that IMO David never promoted any type of "insurance" he simply stated in multiple places and touted all the time that renting with him was "safer."  He was a "safer" avenue over renting directly from an owner.  David never said he offered insurance of any type.  His contract states the opposite with renters that he doesn't offer insurance and he recommended people get insurance for their trips. (not pointing the finger at renters or looking to rehash this conversation -- just what David's contract says)

On those occasions when an owner did cancel and left a renter without a room reservation, David stepped in and covered the renters room expense.  This is a very different situation from offering "insurance."

In retrospect maybe David should have had a bond of some type.  Maybe renters will demand to be better "insured" only time with tell.  In the meantime, if I were a renter, I would not be willing to sign a non-refundable agreement in the event that DVCM or Disney closes the resorts.  I think most renters can live with the reservation being non-refundable if they default.  But, this idea that when it's not the renters fault they lose their vacation money doesn't fly, and as an owner who rents points, it doesn't fly with me either.


----------



## Tiggr88

cmrdgrs said:


> I think the general flaw in that you posted here is that IMO David never promoted any type of "insurance" he simply stated in multiple places and touted all the time that renting with him was "safer."  He was a "safer" avenue over renting directly from an owner.  David never said he offered insurance of any type.  His contract states the opposite with renters that he doesn't offer insurance and he recommended people get insurance for their trips. (not pointing the finger at renters or looking to rehash this conversation -- just what David's contract says)
> 
> On those occasions when an owner did cancel and left a renter without a room reservation, David stepped in and covered the renters room expense.  This is a very different situation from offering "insurance."
> 
> In retrospect maybe David should have had a bond of some type.  Maybe renters will demand to be better "insured" only time with tell.  In the meantime, if I were a renter, I would not be willing to sign a non-refundable agreement in the event that DVCM or Disney closes the resorts.  I think most renters can live with the reservation being non-refundable if they default.  But, this idea that when it's not the renters fault they lose their vacation money doesn't fly, and as an owner who rents points, it doesn't fly with me either.


I believe we’re saying the same thing when it comes to renters not wanting to sign an agreement that puts their reservation at risk if it is cancellable for any other reason than their own choice. I believe the price most people would be willing to accept that risk is not one that owners would be willing to provide at.

I still think it is valid to look at the guarantee he provided as a type of risk mitigation where the higher cost reflects a type of insurance against that risk but can understand if others don’t. Thinking of it that way is where he went wrong. He only considered the risk of the owner cancelling and therefore wrote his contracts that way. If he had thought through it more carefully he would have thought about it more broadly and therefore written his contracts that way. I believe he ended up in the trip insurance business and may not have completely appreciated all that meant.


----------



## crisi

cmrdgrs said:


> In retrospect maybe David should have had a bond of some type.  Maybe renters will demand to be better "insured" only time with tell.  In the meantime, if I were a renter, I would not be willing to sign a non-refundable agreement in the event that DVCM or Disney closes the resorts.  I think most renters can live with the reservation being non-refundable if they default.  But, this idea that when it's not the renters fault they lose their vacation money doesn't fly, and as an owner who rents points, it doesn't fly with me either.



But plenty of people will.  Disney room rates for a BWV room start at something like $500 a night.  A rental started at, what? a little over $200 a night.  DVC rental was never a good deal for someone who couldn't afford to eat the cost if they had to cancel.  Kid breaks a leg the day before you leave.  You get the flu right before you are about to board a plane.  Grandma dies.  Your spouse walks out the door.  Those aren't cancellations that are your fault, but they still are non-refundable.   I suspect most renters didn't buy insurance (not that insurance will pay out in this case) because they were willing to accept the risk that if they got the flu on Friday before a Saturday flight to Disney they'd just be out the money.


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> There are some owners who have not been paid the rest of what they are owed.
> 
> The contract doesn’t allow for owners to cancel and if they do, they risk potential issues,
> 
> But, there is a chance an owner may choose to do it anyway, and return funds to the broker just to be done...or cancel and force broker to go after them if they feel they won’t get full payment.



Right so back to can David know if the owner cancelled or Disney cancelled?  If my reservation disappeared by April 1 appears owners cancelled as it was for April 18 and 24, but can David actually come after an owner??  Like I get his point don't have owner cancel... But is there any proof anywhere??  Obviously in past if reservation disappeared one could guess owner cancelled, but in this situation??? ...


----------



## cmrdgrs

crisi said:


> But plenty of people will.  Disney room rates for a BWV room start at something like $500 a night.  A rental started at, what? a little over $200 a night.  DVC rental was never a good deal for someone who couldn't afford to eat the cost if they had to cancel.  Kid breaks a leg the day before you leave.  You get the flu right before you are about to board a plane.  Grandma dies.  Your spouse walks out the door.  Those aren't cancellations that are your fault, but they still are non-refundable.   I suspect most renters didn't buy insurance (not that insurance will pay out in this case) because they were willing to accept the risk that if they got the flu on Friday before a Saturday flight to Disney they'd just be out the money.


I guess my point is that all the examples that you gave are things that happened in "my world" -- not my fault per se, but they happened in my world and I can easily see that it's probably my fault that I didn't buy the insurance for the unexpected.  Lord knows I myself have purchased many vacations without travel insurance and I have also bought travel insurance.  Point is I made the choice.  (not looking to debate that a pandemic might not have been covered)

All I'm saying is renters can live with the loss if they are at fault. 

Everyone differs on this.  My perspective is that as the owner, they are my points, I own them, and I own the risk. A renter shouldn't lose their money if my "representative" [DVCM] closes the resort.  That's not the renters fault.  You don't have to agree with me, other owners may not agree with me, heck no one on this thread has to agree with me, it's just how I personally feel.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Bing Showei said:


> And this...
> 
> Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> And this after the repeated admissions that you have not read the entirety of this thread, nor have you taken the time to understand the legal language and contractual obligations between David's and the owner and David's and the renter. You even seemed to not understand how those contractual structures make it matter NOTHING whether or not an owner sends money back
> 
> 
> Despite all of this, you continue to shill for David's despite proclamations that you're not defending his actions; deflecting blame from David's does exactly that. Portraying the multi-million dollar company (sole proprietorship notwithstanding) as a poor struggling business owner who's making best efforts to save his little mom & pop business is far more destructive narrative than any assertions you may have read from owners you believe to be acting entitled.
> 
> You also push owners to come up with a solution, yet absolve David's the from the piss poor decisions they made every step of the way which include:
> - preventing owners from working directly with renters despite repeated requests
> - insisting that owners allow Disney to cancel the reservation as opposed to proactively canceling reservations that would require a refund (this continues today for May reservations)
> - turning around and suggesting that owner are liable for the actions of DVCMC
> 
> The list goes on.
> 
> I sympathize with renters. More than that, I believe they *are* owed a reservation that doesn't come replete with all the risks that David's is now refusing to shoulder. David's then goes on to additionally shift risk to owners in case of another shutdown.
> 
> You have to look at the actions of this company as a whole to recognize that they are either doing everything they can in the name of self-preservation to come out of this taking on the least amount of financial exposure as possible, or it is so incompetently run, that they don't see how these actions will doom their business.
> 
> This isn't just a contract issue, it's an issue of a company that doesn't seem to understand how demonstrating some good will (as opposed to just asking others to do it from their "hears" on their behalf) will go a long way. Any decent business owner knows without your customers, you are nothing. That voucher is a big **** you to every renter. If not calculated, it is the epitome of destroying your brand; shooting oneself in the foot. If David's are struggling to survive, they will be more responsible for their own demise than any virus.



What do you suggest the "multi million dollar company" do?  What seems to be missing from all these responses is that they don't have the bank roll that Disney does.  They can't just provide an act of "goodwill".  They would likely (its a sole prop, Financials are not public) go
bankrupt well before handing out this goodwill to even a fraction of the clients that took a loss.  Which means the majority of clients would end up with nothing rather than a voucher.  If I was a renter, Id take my chances on the voucher over nothing.

Yes, they made a mistake in their contracts.  It was a mistake.  It wasn't malicious.   They aren't evil. They probably cheaped out and wrote the contracts themselves instead of hiring a qualified lawyer.  But here we are now, and they are atleast trying to resolve the situation to the best that their resources allow.

As has been stated, the contract is between the renter and David.  Therefore, there is no negotiation to be had between renter and owner.  He also cannot have different terms for different renters.  (I know at the beginning they were doing different things for different people, but even Disney was doing the same thing until an official policy came out).  The policy has to be uniform.

I have no stake in this.  I'm an owner, not a renter, but have never used Davids services.  I'm probably as impartial as can be.  I just don't understand what anyone expects them to do.  Everytime I ask this question I get the same responses.  "He should have had a better contract", "he should give everyone the money they are legally entitled to", "your a shill for Davids", "you don't understand the contracts" etc... the problem is, these responses are either hindsight explanations of the problem instead of a solution, personal attacks towards me or David, discussing legal obligations rather than realistic options, or not possible due to resource constraints.  Its all bad mouthing without discussion of what an appropriate, realistic response would/could be.  This is a discussion forum, not a groupthink rally

I also don't believe someone acting in their own best interest is a bad or morally objective thing.  Everyone here complaining about not getting their 30%, losing their rental and not getting a  refund, losing their points due to closure are all doing the same thing.  I would never expect someone to put themselves into personal bankruptcy just to provide " goodwill" to customers of a business that will no longer exist.

Edited for spelling and grammar


----------



## TCRAIG

McCrae said:


> David states he is trying to help renters impacted by this because he wants to help them, not because he is obligated to.
> 
> My communications from David's have been civil, he hasn't demanded anything. He has asked if I would be willing to help renters caught up in this, by either returning money paid or agreeing to re-rent points.  It's very clear it's my choice to do this or nothing.


Same here - I’m an owner with (so far) 3 rentals impacted.  At least IN MY COMMUNICATIONS - David’s has been civil and has not demanded anything - but rather to see if I was willing to take back my points and refund the 70% already received or re-rent the points.


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> Right so back to can David know if the owner cancelled or Disney cancelled?  If my reservation disappeared by April 1 appears owners cancelled as it was for April 18 and 24, but can David actually come after an owner??  Like I get his point don't have owner cancel... But is there any proof anywhere??  Obviously in past if reservation disappeared one could guess owner cancelled, but in this situation??? ...



 DVC hasn’t canceled any reservations prior to 7 days prior at most.  So, Davids could accuse an owner of doing it if it happened before then.

Other than that, there Is nothing David would have access to that proved or disproved it.


----------



## Amymouse13

Sandisw said:


> DVC hasn’t canceled any reservations prior to 7 days prior at most.  So, Davids could accuse an owner of doing it if it happened before then.
> 
> Other than that, there Is nothing David would have access to that proved or disproved it.



So he can't really come after owners over suspicion they cancelled...

As I said before, I believe he would have been best off trying to honor original contracts. Seems in many cases Disney extended point life.  Granted might not be where the original reservation was, maybe not a studio, maybe less days... But it was possible to as close as possible fulfill the contract under a bad situation.

But instead owners are left with no way to fulfill their contract.  Renters may get nothing or pursue chargeback.  David may or may not make it, but everyone hates him...


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> So he can't really come after owners over suspicion they cancelled...
> 
> As I said before, I believe he would have been best off trying to honor original contracts. Seems in many cases Disney extended point life.  Granted might not be where the original reservation was, maybe not a studio, maybe less days... But it was possible to as close as possible fulfill the contract under a bad situation.
> 
> But instead owners are left with no way to fulfill their contract.  Renters may get nothing or pursue chargeback.  David may or may not make it, but everyone hates him...



Actually, they extended the life of very few types of points at this points.  2018 April and June UY banked points were given 6 months, but can’t even be used to book something until around June 5th....those April one are only good until Oct 1st...and the June ones until Dec 1st.

All other banked 2018 points have not yet been given that so many are still expiring in the next few months.

Some 2019 points were allowed to be banked late...but again, only a few UYs needed this,

So,  many owners are still stuck with points only good for maybe the rest of 2020 and using them won’t be easy.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

crisi said:


> But plenty of people will.  Disney room rates for a BWV room start at something like $500 a night.  A rental started at, what? a little over $200 a night.  DVC rental was never a good deal for someone who couldn't afford to eat the cost if they had to cancel.  Kid breaks a leg the day before you leave.  You get the flu right before you are about to board a plane.  Grandma dies.  Your spouse walks out the door.  Those aren't cancellations that are your fault, but they still are non-refundable.   I suspect most renters didn't buy insurance (not that insurance will pay out in this case) because they were willing to accept the risk that if they got the flu on Friday before a Saturday flight to Disney they'd just be out the money.



My insurance would cover some of those types of scenarios. Maybe not the broken bone one. I believe it even covered things like work revoking time off. So no, I was not willing to be out thousands. It actually also covered this pandemic, I imagine because I had the Canadian governments advising not to cross the border working in my favour, my complication was the insurance company wanting me to get money back from David’s first and David’s backing off of their firm no refunds.

For what it’s worth, the BWV savings and BCV tend to be higher, since those two strike a nice balance between relatively low points and higher rack rates. Even BCV though I found an either very similar or better deal from Disney than David’s for certain dates on I think it was a 2 bedroom, after their discount was applied. The other resorts though, especially the newer ones, don’t necessarily see as fantastic of a discount comparing actual Disney rate to rental cost. It can flip flop as to what the better deal is even if you pretending they were the same product for arguments sake. Always worth comparing apples to apples before deciding. One year for approximately the same cost we would have paid to rent the same room we got free dining from Disney on a 1 bedroom at BLT. Long winded point being, (for any future renters reading this) it’s not always cheaper or a crazy discount worth additional risk and downside, do the math every time.


----------



## Kevin_W

I've tried to keep up with this thread and have seen talk of chargebacks and trip insurance.  What is the verdict on insurance?  I paid with a Chase Sapphire Reserve card which has trip insurance and one of the covered conditions is:

• You or Your Traveling Companion’s lodging accommodations at the destination of the Trip being made uninhabitable 

I would think that Disney closing the resort would meet the definition of being uninhabitable.  Has anyone filed this way?


----------



## starry_solo

Kevin_W said:


> I've tried to keep up with this thread and have seen talk of chargebacks and trip insurance.  What is the verdict on insurance?  I paid with a Chase Sapphire Reserve card which has trip insurance and one of the covered conditions is:
> 
> • You or Your Traveling Companion’s lodging accommodations at the destination of the Trip being made uninhabitable
> 
> I would think that Disney closing the resort would meet the definition of being uninhabitable.  Has anyone filed this way?



I thought I read in an earlier post that someone’s credit card insurance said being provided a voucher was an appropriate accommodation and to contact them later if the voucher was not used within the appropriate time. I haven’t figured out how to search a thread for keywords though


----------



## SherylLC

cmrdgrs said:


> @.SherylLC
> 
> Post #2861 (from user knockUout)
> 
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...r-rescheduling.3796922/page-144#post-61861790
> Email from David asking the owner for details on the points they rented.  IMO, if David has all this information at his fingertips he wouldn't need to send this email.  So, you tell me, why is he collecting this information if he already has it all?


My point is that I KNOW for a fact he had the detail on points when he initially make an reservation. You can't even offer them to him to rent without completing this on his request form. Are you asking me to SPECULATE as to why he is asking for this after the fact? (You didn't need to prove to me someone posted that-I would have believed you.) My GUESS is that once the reservation is set he no longer saves the information. Or possibly he is just buying time.

You asked. That's the answer that makes the most sense to me. So there you go.

Edited to add:
I looked at my response to your post as I'm sitting here wondering why anyone would have issue with my comments.
Here are YOUR words in bold:
*David doesn't even seem to have a basic understanding of what the status of points were that were used to book the various renters 
Without this basic knowledge on the points renters reservations were made with finding a way out of this is a huge mess*. 
I think we can both agree he has made mistakes. My point is being ignorant of how the points system works isn't one of them BUT even if it was, being ignorant of the product you are offering to your clients, is not an excuse to pass the damage on to others who are abiding by your contracts. It just means you're ignorant. I personally don't believe he is ignorant at all. I think he is willing to break his contract with both sides to save his own skin.


----------



## banzai75

Kevin_W said:


> I've tried to keep up with this thread and have seen talk of chargebacks and trip insurance.  What is the verdict on insurance?  I paid with a Chase Sapphire Reserve card which has trip insurance and one of the covered conditions is:
> 
> • You or Your Traveling Companion’s lodging accommodations at the destination of the Trip being made uninhabitable
> 
> I would think that Disney closing the resort would meet the definition of being uninhabitable.  Has anyone filed this way?



I have same card as do a few others. I tried do a chargeback first.  

Even though his voucher is terrible I believe the trip insurance will accept that as satisfactory and deny the claim. There was a post on here earlier whose claim was denied because of the voucher.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> What do you suggest the "multi million dollar company" do?  What seems to be missing from all these responses is that they don't have the bank roll that Disney does.  They can't just provide an act of "goodwill".  They would likely (its a sole prop, Financials are not public) go
> bankrupt well before handing out this goodwill to even a fraction of the clients that took a loss.  Which means the majority of clients would end up with nothing rather than a voucher.  If I was a renter, Id take my chances on the voucher over nothing.
> 
> Yes, they made a mistake in their contracts.  It was a mistake.  It wasn't malicious.   They aren't evil. They probably cheaped out and wrote the contracts themselves instead of hiring a qualified lawyer.  But here we are now, and they are atleast trying to resolve the situation to the best that their resources allow.
> 
> As has been stated, the contract is between the renter and David.  Therefore, there is no negotiation to be had between renter and owner.  He also cannot have different terms for different renters.  (I know at the beginning they were doing different things for different people, but even Disney was doing the same thing until an official policy came out).  The policy has to be uniform.
> 
> I have no stake in this.  I'm an owner, not a renter, but have never used Davids services.  I'm probably as impartial as can be.  I just don't understand what anyone expects them to do.  Everytime I ask this question I get the same responses.  "He should have had a better contract", "he should give everyone the money they are legally entitled to", "your a shill for Davids", "you don't understand the contracts" etc... the problem is, these responses are either hindsight explanations of the problem instead of a solution, personal attacks towards me or David, discussing legal obligations rather than realistic options, or not possible due to resource constraints.  Its all bad mouthing without discussion of what an appropriate, realistic response would/could be.  This is a discussion forum, not a groupthink rally
> 
> I also don't believe someone acting in their own best interest is a bad or morally objective thing.  Everyone here complaining about not getting their 30%, losing their rental and not getting a  refund, losing their points due to closure are all doing the same thing.  I would never expect someone to put themselves into personal bankruptcy just to provide " goodwill" to customers of a business that will no longer exist.
> 
> Edited for spelling and grammar



Other suggestions have been made, maybe you don't agree with them, but more than simply offering refunds has been suggested. Re-issue vouchers with more favorable terms, refund his commission or forgo future commissions to effected renters, guarantee owners with distressed points priority over new points going into the queue or payout the remaining 30% if points aren't used before expiration.  I don't think they had/have evil intentions, although some actions like removing negative comments on their facebook page might appear to have a little malice. I just don't understand the tone that they are simply doing the best they can. I don't think you can fault brokers for not preparing for something of this magnitude. As pointed out by Crisi, carrying that amount of overhead would probably not be feasible. However, IMO, they don't seem to want to take any financial responsibility towards it. I could be completely off, basing my opinion on hearsay, but I haven't heard/read anywhere of any financial relief offered to any client. If they do end up bankrupt, I would imagine it would only be a matter of time before they resurface or the void is filled by others.


----------



## dwight16

this is a lesson for how we are to travel in the future.  you now have to be very weary on what the company you choose to do business with handles your deposits.  from what i learned all these travel companies small to large (airlines and cruise companies down to dvc rentals) are ponzie schemes.  the take massive customer deposits and do what they please with them before their travel dates.  hence why cruise and airlines basically went bankrupt after a week or two of this.  i get no one planned for this and its not industry standard even for a summer beach rental to hold the money in escrow until the travel date but going forward we are all going to have to need these things.  I believe as a DVC owner this has fundamentally damaged the value of this product having to book so far in advance and being left holding the bag is not a great feeling.  i have lost a wdw trip with my own points and i am probably going to lose a rented trip for aulani in july even if its open and if its closed looks like zero money back.  Davids should be giving back the 30% at least if they cant recover the money.  hard lesson learned...


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> Other suggestions have been made, maybe you don't agree with them, but more than simply offering refunds has been suggested. Re-issue vouchers with more favorable terms, refund his commission or forgo future commissions to effected renters, guarantee owners with distressed points priority over new points going into the queue or payout the remaining 30% if points aren't used before expiration.  I don't think they had/have evil intentions, although some actions like removing negative comments on their facebook page might appear to have a little malice. I just don't understand the tone that they are simply doing the best they can. I don't think you can fault brokers for not preparing for something of this magnitude. As pointed out by Crisi, carrying that amount of overhead would probably not be feasible.* However, IMO, they don't seem to want to take any financial responsibility towards it. I could be completely off, basing my opinion on hearsay, but I haven't heard/read anywhere of any financial relief offered to any client.* If they do end up bankrupt, I would imagine it would only be a matter of time before they resurface or the void is filled by others.



This is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong.

Owner's have two choices.  Keep the 70% and keep the points.  They can then take those points and see if they can use them personally, or try and rent them out again which means further profit.  Worst case, the points expire and they lose 30%.  Second choice is to allow David's to re-rent the points, and then get 100%.  Overall, it's not perfect, but it's not too bad.

Renter's get one choice.  They get a voucher which can be used for several different options including a future DVC stay, or a booking through his travel agency (which could include booking hotel rooms through Disney).  Again, it's not a perfect solution for the renter, but it's still overall not that bad.

In order to allow the owner to keep the 70%, and then issue a 100% voucher to the renter, that requires excess cash.  Doing some rough math, David's in general keeps about 24% of the funds as a commission.  Now, he gives a chunk of that amount to his employees as their commission.  So l assume he (the company) only keeps about 13% as gross profit (which is different than profit.  He still has other expenses to cover) under normal circumstances.  So far, the owner has received about 53% of the total funds (14.50 / 19 x 0.7) that the renter paid, the employee has about 10% (2 / 19) , and David has 37% (1 - 16.50 / 19).  Still following me?  He now has to cover a 100% voucher with only 37% of the funds to help.  He is taking a 63% loss.  Which means, he is taking a major financial loss on those vouchers.

In the circumstances where the owner allows their points to be re-rented, everyone is technically made whole. In the circumstance where the owner keeps the 70%, David is taking a major financial loss, the owner is taking a smaller loss, and the renter is taking zero financial loss  (they are taking a qualitative loss).   Yes, some of the terms are a bit different on the voucher, but these are basically the terms that everyone is saying were missing from the original agreements that lead to the mess in the first place.  Again, it's not a perfect solution, but IMO it's about as much as you can ask for given the scenario.  All three parties are sharing the loss, with the broker taking the the brunt of it.


----------



## crisi

cmrdgrs said:


> I guess my point is that all the examples that you gave are things that happened in "my world" -- not my fault per se, but they happened in my world and I can easily see that it's probably my fault that I didn't buy the insurance for the unexpected.  Lord knows I myself have purchased many vacations without travel insurance and I have also bought travel insurance.  Point is I made the choice.  (not looking to debate that a pandemic might not have been covered)
> 
> All I'm saying is renters can live with the loss if they are at fault.
> 
> Everyone differs on this.  My perspective is that as the owner, they are my points, I own them, and I own the risk. A renter shouldn't lose their money if my "representative" [DVCM] closes the resort.  That's not the renters fault.  You don't have to agree with me, other owners may not agree with me, heck no one on this thread has to agree with me, it's just how I personally feel.



Covid also happened in your world - or do you live in somewhere that people aren't dying?


----------



## CanadaDisney05

dwight16 said:


> Davids should be giving back the 30% at least if they cant recover the money.  hard lesson learned...


It's not 30% of the renter's money.  It's 30% of the owner's portion, which is really only 22% of the renter's money.  So the choice really is, do you want 22% of your money back, or a 100% credit voucher.  Sure the voucher comes with some added risks, but I think by being 4.5X more value, that more than covers the risk.


----------



## dwight16

CanadaDisney05 said:


> It's not 30% of the renter's money.  It's 30% of the owner's portion, which is really only 22% of the renter's money.  So the choice really is, do you want 22% of your money back, or a 100% credit voucher.  Sure the voucher comes with some added risks, but I think by being 4.5X more value, that more than covers the risk.



as this goes on there is almost zero chance davids makes it though this or any rental company that operates like this do you have any idea how many lawsuits this guy is going to have to deal with bc i am sure some renters are laywers probably a few.  each day that goes by the losses mount up and this could go until june/july.  let alone he is losing on the travel agent side of the business.  right now i would take 30% over a future credit from a company that probably does not exist in 6 months


----------



## Dracula

CanadaDisney05 said:


> This is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Owner's have two choices.  Keep the 70% and keep the points.  They can then take those points and see if they can use them personally, or try and rent them out again which means further profit.  Worst case, the points expire and they lose 30%.  Second choice is to allow David's to re-rent the points, and then get 100%.  Overall, it's not perfect, but it's not too bad.
> 
> Renter's get one choice.  They get a voucher which can be used for several different options including a future DVC stay, or a booking through his travel agency (which could include booking hotel rooms through Disney).  Again, it's not a perfect solution for the renter, but it's still overall not that bad.
> 
> In order to allow the owner to keep the 70%, and then issue a 100% voucher to the renter, that requires excess cash.  Doing some rough math, David's in general keeps about 24% of the funds as a commission.  Now, he gives a chunk of that amount to his employees as their commission.  So l assume he (the company) only keeps about 13% as gross profit (which is different than profit.  He still has other expenses to cover) under normal circumstances.  So far, the owner has received about 53% of the total funds (14.50 / 19 x 0.7) that the renter paid, the employee has about 10% (2 / 19) , and David has 37% (1 - 16.50 / 19).  Still following me?  He now has to cover a 100% voucher with only 37% of the funds to help.  He is taking a 63% loss.  Which means, he is taking a major financial loss on those vouchers.
> 
> In the circumstances where the owner allows their points to be re-rented, everyone is technically made whole. In the circumstance where the owner keeps the 70%, David is taking a major financial loss, the owner is taking a smaller loss, and the renter is taking zero financial loss  (they are taking a qualitative loss).   Yes, some of the terms are a bit different on the voucher, but these are basically the terms that everyone is saying were missing from the original agreements that lead to the mess in the first place.  Again, it's not a perfect solution, but IMO it's about as much as you can ask for given the scenario.  All three parties are sharing the loss, with the broker taking the the brunt of it.


These are not the choices David gave me as an owner. The choices were:
1) Return the 70% received, and keep the points in whatever condition they were;
2) Keep the 70%, but agree to re-rent the points through David and receive the remaining 30% at the new reservation day of check-in.

I chose #2, but I am struggling with what happens if David is unable to re-rent the points prior to their expiration.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

dwight16 said:


> as this goes on there is almost zero chance davids makes it though this or any rental company that operates like this do you have any idea how many lawsuits this guy is going to have to deal with bc i am sure some renters are laywers probably a few.  each day that goes by the losses mount up and this could go until june/july.  let alone he is losing on the travel agent side of the business.  right now i would take 30% over a future credit from a company that probably does not exist in 6 months


You could be correct.  But again, it's only 22%.

However, none of us actually know the real situation.  1) How many people are actually going to sue in Ontario small claims court?  Would they even win given that he offered a 100% credit voucher?  2) He likely has liability insurance.  How much?  I have no clue.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

CanadaDisney05 said:


> This is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Owner's have two choices.  Keep the 70% and keep the points.  They can then take those points and see if they can use them personally, or try and rent them out again which means further profit.  Worst case, the points expire and they lose 30%.  Second choice is to allow David's to re-rent the points, and then get 100%.  Overall, it's not perfect, but *it's not too bad*.
> 
> Renter's get one choice.  They get a voucher which can be used for several different options including a future DVC stay, or a booking through his travel agency (which could include booking hotel rooms through Disney).  Again, it's not a perfect solution for the renter, but *it's still overall not that bad*.
> 
> In order to allow the owner to keep the 70%, and then issue a 100% voucher to the renter, that requires excess cash.  Doing some rough math, David's in general keeps about 24% of the funds as a commission.  Now, he gives a chunk of that amount to his employees as their commission.  So l assume he (the company) only keeps about 13% as gross profit (which is different than profit.  He still has other expenses to cover) under normal circumstances.  So far, the owner has received about 53% of the total funds (14.50 / 19 x 0.7) that the renter paid, the employee has about 10% (2 / 19) , and David has 37% (1 - 16.50 / 19).  Still following me?  He now has to cover a 100% voucher with only 37% of the funds to help.  He is taking a 63% loss.  Which means, he is taking a major financial loss on those vouchers.
> 
> In the circumstances where the owner allows their points to be re-rented, everyone is technically made whole. In the circumstance where the owner keeps the 70%, David is taking a major financial loss, the owner is taking a smaller loss, and the renter is taking zero financial loss  (they are taking a qualitative loss).   *Yes, some of the terms are a bit different on the voucher*, but these are basically the terms that everyone is saying were missing from the original agreements that lead to the mess in the first place.  Again, it's not a perfect solution, but IMO it's about *as much as you can ask for* given the scenario.  All three parties are sharing the loss, with *the broker taking the the brunt of it*.


Thank you for clearing this all up for us, David.


----------



## cmrdgrs

crisi said:


> Covid also happened in your world - or do you live in somewhere that people aren't dying?


Please don't lecture me on people dying.  I've had one relative and two friends die due to complications from Covid (these three people died without family by their side, and I was not allowed to go to the funerals).  So, yes in my world people are dying.  I'm also taking loans to make ends meet to keep paying my own bills due to lost business thanks to Covid.

You and I don't have to agree.  I'm allowed to have my perspective and you are allowed to not like it.

If the owner has a way-- I personally feel that renters should be refunded.  I've stated it before, I've stated again, and I still feel this way.  Nothing you can say will sway me any other way.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Dracula said:


> These are not the choices David gave me as an owner. The choices were:
> 1) Return the 70% received, and keep the points in whatever condition they were;
> 2) Keep the 70%, but agree to re-rent the points through David and receive the remaining 30% at the new reservation day of check-in.
> 
> I chose #2, but I am struggling with what happens if David is unable to re-rent the points prior to their expiration.


I guess I misinterpreted it a bit.  The third option of keeping the 70% is not a choice he explicitly offered, but is of course is still an option.  However, option 2 is basically the same scenario as you were in prior other than delaying the date of payment.  Given the circumstance, I think that is actually pretty fair.  Of course there are risks involved just like everything in life and you personally have to weigh the risks.


----------



## Sandisw

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I guess I misinterpreted it a bit.  The third option of keeping the 70% is not a choice he explicitly offered, but is of course is still an option.  However, option 2 is basically the same scenario as you were in prior other than delaying the date of payment.  Given the circumstance, I think that is actually pretty fair.  Of course there are risks involved just like everything in life and you personally have to weigh the risks.



He also could have allowed an owner to reschedule the renter if they wanted To do thst,

Still comes down to Davids deciding contract terms are void, frustrated, whatever you want to say and then deciding for all 3 parties ...with them having no say,,,what was going to happen.

That is the problem I have with his actions and why I won’t do anything if something happens comes into play for my renters in August that is not explicitly stated in my contract,  He has caused a lot of distrust and I won’t ever recommend to anyone to use him.


----------



## Dracula

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I guess I misinterpreted it a bit.  The third option of keeping the 70% is not a choice he explicitly offered, but is of course is still an option.  However, option 2 is basically the same scenario as you were in prior other than delaying the date of payment.  Given the circumstance, I think that is actually pretty fair.  Of course there are risks involved just like everything in life and you personally have to weigh the risks.


I also thought option #2 is the most fair, this is why I chose it. The other implicit options would have been:
3) Keep the 70% and use the points elsewhere (risky, since I have other, larger reservations with David and may then not be paid on those)
4) Take David to court in Ontario for the remaining 30% (not worth it to me)
5) Insist on the 30% payment and use the other reservations as leverage (does not seem fair at this point)


----------



## Dracula

As I engage in the daily speculation on the future of David's business, a question comes to mind:
*How can we tell when David is bankrupt?*

All signs point toward his inability to continue as a going concern. At this time, my understanding is that he is no longer issuing the remaining 30% to owners, nor is he making new reservations for renters because the resorts are closed (reminds me of a candidate for office who would not release his tax returns because they were under audit). David is still sending emails, he is sending vouchers, and in some cases has money withdrawn as a result of credit card chargebacks. So, in this maelstrom of grief, what would be the telltale signs that David is in fact bankrupt - would it be the lack of email response? people would stop picking up the phone?


----------



## Bearval

Dracula said:


> These are not the choices David gave me as an owner. The choices were:
> 1) Return the 70% received, and keep the points in whatever condition they were;
> 2) Keep the 70%, but agree to re-rent the points through David and receive the remaining 30% at the new reservation day of check-in.
> 
> I chose #2, but I am struggling with what happens if David is unable to re-rent the points prior to their expiration.


If you chose  #2 is he requiring you to sign the new version of his contract? Also is the agreement to allow him to re-rent the original points or "new" points?   I would  allow him to re- rent the "original " set of points if they are still good and I would make it clear to him when they expire . I would definitely NOT sign the new version of his contract.


----------



## Amymouse13

The assumption that the voucher can be used and that a valid reservation will be had is far from given.  Cash reservation what if he doesn't pay more than deposit?  Point reservation may not be available or the owner may cancel bc they didn't get 30%.  Then you waived right to fight that you got nothing...


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> He also could have allowed an owner to reschedule the renter if they wanted To do thst,


Isn't that what he's doing with the voucher system?  Does it really matter to anyone who they are renting to or who they are renting from?



> Still comes down to Davids deciding contract terms are void, frustrated, whatever you want to say and then deciding for all 3 parties ...with them having no say,,,what was going to happen.


I get it's not ideal, but what you are suggesting is not logistically possible.  He doesn't have the manpower to mediate new contract terms for each rental individually.  I think we can all agree that more clear contract terms are needed and that is what is being done.



> That is the problem I have with his actions and why I won’t do anything if something happens comes into play for my renters in August that is not explicitly stated in my contract,  He has caused a lot of distrust and I won’t ever recommend to anyone to use him.



Everyone is entitled to do business with who they choose.  I personally think, that IF he can get through this in the short term, long term he will be fine.  People forget.  People are greedy.  People see the savings and they will ignore the risk.  It's human nature.  There are always new owners and renters who weren't affected and won't care about what happened to some random person on a forum 2,5,10 years ago.


----------



## cmrdgrs

SherylLC said:


> My point is that I KNOW for a fact he had the detail on points when he initially make an reservation. You can't even offer them to him to rent without completing this on his request form. Are you asking me to SPECULATE as to why he is asking for this after the fact? (You didn't need to prove to me someone posted that-I would have believed you.) My GUESS is that once the reservation is set he no longer saves the information. Or possibly he is just buying time.
> 
> You asked. That's the answer that makes the most sense to me. So there you go.
> 
> Edited to add:
> I looked at my response to your post as I'm sitting here wondering why anyone would have issue with my comments.
> Here are YOUR words in bold:
> *David doesn't even seem to have a basic understanding of what the status of points were that were used to book the various renters
> Without this basic knowledge on the points renters reservations were made with finding a way out of this is a huge mess*.
> I think we can both agree he has made mistakes. My point is being ignorant of how the points system works isn't one of them BUT even if it was, being ignorant of the product you are offering to your clients, is not an excuse to pass the damage on to others who are abiding by your contracts. It just means you're ignorant. I personally don't believe he is ignorant at all. I think he is willing to break his contract with both sides to save his own skin.


I never ever disagreed that David collected information about an owners points at the time the contract was made.  I never said David didn't understand the product that he sold or didn't understand DVC and how it works.  I did say that he didn't educate renters on what they were buying related to those underlying points.

I am saying that, and it is supported by the link I gave you, that David has sent out emails asking owners about the points that owners rented to them.

All I was saying is that the details of the underlying points used for each guest reservation does not seem to be in a data base where he can produce a report.  I'm saying that I think David has a software issue in helping him sort through this efficiently.  That's my opinion based on his actions and I've already stated that maybe I'm incorrect, but that's how it appears to me.

Why do you take issue with what I'm saying?  I'm questioning David's software.  Nothing else.  If you know things about David's software please share what you know.


----------



## dwight16

Dracula said:


> As I engage in the daily speculation on the future of David's business, a question comes to mind:
> *How can we tell when David is bankrupt?*
> 
> All signs point toward his inability to continue as a going concern. At this time, my understanding is that he is no longer issuing the remaining 30% to owners, nor is he making new reservations for renters because the resorts are closed (reminds me of a candidate for office who would not release his tax returns because they were under audit). David is still sending emails, he is sending vouchers, and in some cases has money withdrawn as a result of credit card chargebacks. So, in this maelstrom of grief, what would be the telltale signs that David is in fact bankrupt - would it be the lack of email response? people would stop picking up the phone?



the CC charge backs will end him IMHO the CC will side with the customer at the start and they will take the money from davids account even if its a valid charge they shoot first and ask questions later.  i am sure this already started so he will have a major negative balance i know that is the rout i am going if my july reservation gets canceled.  he is going to owe hundreds of thousands to the CC companies.  so even getting the 30% back will be a challenge.


----------



## 3babiesmom

Has anyone finished the chargeback process from their CC company?  What was the process?  What was the outcome?


----------



## Dracula

Bearval said:


> If you chose  #2 is he requiring you to sign the new version of his contract? Also is the agreement to allow him to re-rent the original points or "new" points?   I would  allow him to re- rent the "original " set of points if they are still good and I would make it clear to him when they expire . I would definitely NOT sign the new version of his contract.


David did not ask me to sign the new version of the contract. However, for the previous reservations I had two contracts - one I accepted when listing the points, and a second one issued once I made the reservation. It is quite possible he would try to sneak in a refund clause on this second contract, the one done at the time of reservation. In that case, I would probably let him know that I reject these terms and give him 24-48 hours to acknowledge, or have his reservation canceled.

I also recall some verbiage that, by accepting the PayPal payment, I as owner implicitly agree to his contract terms. This is funny because I cannot really reject an incoming PayPal payment. In this case, however, I don't expect any significant payment coming in (he may still pay an extra $1 per point since the point price has gone up since last year).


----------



## Sandisw

cmrdgrs said:


> I never ever disagreed that David collected information about an owners points at the time the contract was made.  I never said David didn't understand the product that he sold or didn't understand DVC and how it works.  I did say that he didn't educate renters on what they were buying related to those underlying points.
> 
> I am saying that, and it is supported by the link I gave you, that David has sent out emails asking owners about the points that owners rented to them.
> 
> All I was saying is that the details of the underlying points used for each guest reservation does not seem to be in a data base where he can produce a report.  I'm saying that I think David has a software issue in helping him sort through this efficiently.  That's my opinion based on his actions and I've already stated that maybe I'm incorrect, but that's how it appears to me.
> 
> Why do you take issue with what I'm saying?  I'm questioning David's software.  Nothing else.  If you know things about David's software please share what you know.



He didn’t have to do anything but allow an owner to reach out to the  renter and book the new reservation if they wanted to.  All owners have renters information..Davids has owners emails,

Even when owners said they would do the leg work for him to reschedule the original renter, he said no to most,

So, not sure what that has to do with a software issue.  If he can send emails to owners telling them what not to do, or what he expects, he could have easily allowed those willing to make the new reservations for those renters,

I guess my issue is that his choices were not the only ones he could have made and IMO, had he allowed the owners and renters who could have worked together to reschedule, it would have been better for him and reduced chargebacks as we have read many posts from renters who simply wanted a chance to be rebooked and told, nope...take a voucher..,and, BTW, not even going to attempt to get you rebooked until at least the fall

But you are right,,,we don’t agree that David handled this appropriately.  I am unfortunately stuck at this point unless I decide to void the contract myself...since he can..and just cancel, return the funds, and keep my points.


----------



## anomamatt

CanadaDisney05 said:


> It's not 30% of the renter's money.  It's 30% of the owner's portion, which is really only 22% of the renter's money.  So the choice really is, do you want 22% of your money back, or a 100% credit voucher.  Sure the voucher comes with some added risks, but I think by being 4.5X more value, that more than covers the risk.



That is the holdback portion that would have been paid to the owner.  But there is also the significant broker fee that David's still has.

David only paid out ~51% of the total money collected from the renter.  

I'm not suggesting 49% might be better than the voucher (it might be), but it's important to make it clear that David's has only paid out roughly half of what they collected.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> He didn’t have to do anything but allow an owner to reach out to the  renter and book the new reservation if they wanted to.  All owners have renters information..Davids has owners emails,


Due to privacy laws, he would probably have to reach out to the renter first and get them to acknowledge that they want to be reached out to by the owner directly.  Owner may have that information, but they probably don't have the right to contact the renter directly.



> Even when owners said they would do the leg work for him to reschedule the original renter, he said no to most,


How is this any better than the voucher system?  The voucher system is essentially the same as the owner re-renting their points, and the renter re-renting points.  Owner is still going to get paid when the renter checks in.  What difference does it make if it's to the same person or not?


----------



## CraigInPA

CanadaDisney05 said:


> This is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Owner's have two choices.  Keep the 70% and keep the points.  They can then take those points and see if they can use them personally, or try and rent them out again which means further profit.  Worst case, the points expire and they lose 30%.  Second choice is to allow David's to re-rent the points, and then get 100%.  Overall, it's not perfect, but it's not too bad.
> 
> Renter's get one choice.  They get a voucher which can be used for several different options including a future DVC stay, or a booking through his travel agency (which could include booking hotel rooms through Disney).  Again, it's not a perfect solution for the renter, but it's still overall not that bad.
> 
> In order to allow the owner to keep the 70%, and then issue a 100% voucher to the renter, that requires excess cash.  Doing some rough math, David's in general keeps about 24% of the funds as a commission.  Now, he gives a chunk of that amount to his employees as their commission.  So l assume he (the company) only keeps about 13% as gross profit (which is different than profit.  He still has other expenses to cover) under normal circumstances.  So far, the owner has received about 53% of the total funds (14.50 / 19 x 0.7) that the renter paid, the employee has about 10% (2 / 19) , and David has 37% (1 - 16.50 / 19).  Still following me?  He now has to cover a 100% voucher with only 37% of the funds to help.  He is taking a 63% loss.  Which means, he is taking a major financial loss on those vouchers.
> 
> In the circumstances where the owner allows their points to be re-rented, everyone is technically made whole. In the circumstance where the owner keeps the 70%, David is taking a major financial loss, the owner is taking a smaller loss, and the renter is taking zero financial loss  (they are taking a qualitative loss).   Yes, some of the terms are a bit different on the voucher, but these are basically the terms that everyone is saying were missing from the original agreements that lead to the mess in the first place.  Again, it's not a perfect solution, but IMO it's about as much as you can ask for given the scenario.  All three parties are sharing the loss, with the broker taking the the brunt of it.



But those aren't the only choices he's asked for. 

He also asked Owners to refund the 70%, no matter what the status of the points, and stated that the money would be used for fund a voucher for his entire base of customers, since he would not issue a refund to a Renter whose Owner issued a refund (because that would require David's to give up his commission).

For a very small number of Owners early on, he accepted that they contacted the Renter and re-scheduled the trip. By doing so, he decided that he was out of the agreement, and promised to pay the 30% remaining to the Owner. This quickly stopped with David's telling Owners not to do that any more. When Renters tracked down Owners, David's admonished them for contacting the Owners directly. David's also told Renters that they would contact the Owners on their behalf about re-scheduling, but quite a number of Renters and Owners in this thread stated that David never bothered to contact the other party.

So, let's talk about the vouchers...

The voucher terms can be changed at David's sole whim, or even cancelled.

If a Renter uses the voucher and the resort is closed, the Renter does not get to re-schedule and the voucher value is lost.

The voucher is full rack rate on a cash reservation at Disney, which allows David's to pocket the agent's commission or spread (the applicable discounts offered to anyone booking through CRO versus full rack rate). Since we expect Disney to offer 30% or perhaps more of a discount in the short term, the spread gives David a considerable commission. In fact,at a Deluxe hotel, that could be as much as $200 per night at 30% off.  Since his DVC rental price was likely was about $300 per night for a studio, the Renter would be paying quite a bit more to stay Deluxe, and would have to drop to moderate resorts to avoid paying more. With David's profit on the spread, his retained 30% not paid to the Owner, and his own earlier commission, he is almost entirely whole if the Renter doesn't put in additional money. If the Renter puts in money, David's could actually make a profit. 

The voucher can also be used to rent another DVC reservation. David's, no doubt, has a stock of points from cancelled reservations where the Owners have agreed to re-rent the points in the hope that they will get the final payment. These DVC points in stock will be prioritized towards new cash customers, in order to build up the cash position. A few of these may go to people who lost reservations and were given a voucher. However, because only David's knows what points are in stock for what resort, he can game the voucher holders and tell them he is looking for Owners to rent to him and is unsuccessful in doing so. If he is truly unscrupulous, he would never fulfill a voucher with points unless those points are coming up on expiration. This forces customers who want to book far in advance into pricier cash reservations where he makes money on the spread. If a voucher holder gets to book a DVC stay, it is at the new higher price per point, so the Renter will be paying money out of their pocket for an equivalent stay, which goes into David's pocket (David's has stated the old points are at the old price, only new points are paid at the higher rate).

Of course, some people will never use those vouchers, so all of the money, whether it is the commission plus the 30% in holding for the Owner, or the full amount because the Owner issued a refund, goes into David's pocket.

Yes, some Owners will keep the 70% and walk away, but as I've explained earlier, the voucher scheme makes up for that. What the voucher scheme cannot prevent is chargebacks eating through David's cash reserves. If Renters don't like the terms of the voucher, they will issue a chargeback. If enough do, David's voucher system will be under-funded and David's will go into bankruptcy.

@CanadaDisney05  I find it interesting that you state that David's employees receive a commission on each booking, and even suggest an amount for that commission. While travel agents are typically commissioned, clerical employees typically are paid per hour. I haven't seen published anywhere how David's pays his employees. So, this causes me to ask you directly:

@CanadaDisney05  Are you in any way affiliated with David's? An employee, ex-employee, relative of an employee, investor, creditor, David's family member, David himself?


----------



## CanadaDisney05

anomamatt said:


> That is the holdback portion that would have been paid to the owner.  But there is also the significant broker fee that David's still has.
> 
> David only paid out ~51% of the total money collected from the renter.
> 
> I'm not suggesting 49% might be better than the voucher (it might be), but it's important to make it clear that David's has only paid out roughly have of what they collected.


I did the math in a previous post a few up.  Remember that he also pays part of that commission to his employee.  He also has other costs.  It's not all profit.  The extra 30% is still going to go to the owner also once the reservation eventually gets completed.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

In my case where he originally was going to let me rebook my renter and then went silent - my renter took voucher - no one told me / now is when I could have booked my renter and I contacted them to find out they took voucher 
So I am doing what David last said to me.,,wait tell they contact me 
What I suspect he is doing with my renter - getting a new owner to book so he has cash because I don’t believe he has any 
Will my renter get booked any time soon ? Nope 
Had my renter stuck with the original contracts and emails the renter would be booked - I was willing to forgo the 30% and even stated in email as I assume David’s will fold - I made myself crystal clear in writing - if that does not prove David’s is out for himself only I don’t know what does 
I WOULD NOT trust that voucher at all not do I intend on accepting it if he ever gets around to sending me one for my rental that was cancelled . 
I have 3 point rentals that I have rented out with him and 1 I rented myself - wishing now I never did any of them - this is a hot mess and getting hotter every day!!


----------



## Sandisw

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Due to privacy laws, he would probably have to reach out to the renter first and get them to acknowledge that they want to be reached out to by the owner directly.  Owner may have that information, but they probably don't have the right to contact the renter directly.
> 
> 
> How is this any better than the voucher system?  The voucher system is essentially the same as the owner re-renting their points, and the renter re-renting points.  Owner is still going to get paid when the renter checks in.  What difference does it make if it's to the same person or not?



Nothing in my contract prohibits me from contacting the renter directly

Why does it matter? Because the voucher depends on someone else’s points.  If an owner can help the original renter, why is that a problem?  Why should the renter have to accept new terms when the original owner is willing to work with them?

I thInk we are repeating same thoughts.  You believe that what Davids had offered owners in this deal is fair, and I do not.  No sense going around it because every argument you make for his practices I can think of just as valid as a reason why he could have allowed other things to happen,

As you stated it’s his business and if wants to pick and choose what part of his contract gets enforced and what does not, that’s on him,  As an owner who has a contract with him , I will choose to do the same thing,...what is best for me.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

CraigInPA said:


> But those aren't the only choices he's asked for.
> 
> He also asked Owners to refund the 70%, no matter what the status of the points, and stated that the money would be used for fund a voucher for his entire base of customers, since he would not issue a refund to a Renter whose Owner issued a refund (because that would require David's to give up his commission).
> 
> 
> For a very small number of Owners early on, he accepted that they contacted the Renter and re-scheduled the trip. By doing so, he decided that he was out of the agreement, and promised to pay the 30% remaining to the Owner. This quickly stopped with David's telling Owners not to do that any more. When Renters tracked down Owners, David's admonished them for contacting the Owners directly. David's also told Renters that they would contact the Owners on their behalf about re-scheduling, but quite a number of Renters and Owners in this thread stated that David never bothered to contact the other party.



Most businesses changed their tune very early on.  This is not unique to David's.  Lower level employees made decisions before the big boss was able to come up with a formal policy.  DVC member services was doing the same thing.



> So, let's talk about the vouchers...
> 
> The voucher terms can be changed at David's sole whim, or even cancelled.
> 
> If a Renter uses the voucher and the resort is closed, the Renter does not get to re-schedule and the voucher value is lost.


I said it many times, its not perfect.  But atleast it's more than a free fast pass.  You are still getting 60 - 90% of the value of the original contract depending on your analysis of the risk.  But again, this is the problem with the original contract.  It didn't indicate who was responsible when the resort closed.  Now it indicates it.  He had to choose one side.  He chose the owner's side.  IMO, he couldn't leave it ambiguous again.  If he left it up in the air, would this have been a better solution for you?



> The voucher is full rack rate on a cash reservation at Disney, which allows David's to pocket the agent's commission or spread (the applicable discounts offered to anyone booking through CRO versus full rack rate). Since we expect Disney to offer 30% or perhaps more of a discount in the short term, the spread gives David a considerable commission. In fact,at a Deluxe hotel, that could be as much as $200 per night at 30% off.  Since his DVC rental price was likely was about $300 per night for a studio, the Renter would be paying quite a bit more to stay Deluxe, and would have to drop to moderate resorts to avoid paying more. With David's profit on the spread, his retained 30% not paid to the Owner, and his own earlier commission, he is almost entirely whole if the Renter doesn't put in additional money. If the Renter puts in money, David's could actually make a profit.



Does it explicitly say it will be at rack rate?  Or does it just not guarantee an promotions?  If so, I would agree that he should be selling it at whatever price Disney sells it to him at.  He shouldn't be profiting (other than commission) on that portion.



> The voucher can also be used to rent another DVC reservation. David's, no doubt, has a stock of points from cancelled reservations where the Owners have agreed to re-rent the points in the hope that they will get the final payment. *These DVC points in stock will be prioritized towards new cash customers, in order to build up the cash position*.



That is a MAJOR assumption with no evidence to support the theory.



> A few of these may go to people who lost reservations and were given a voucher. However, because only David's knows what points are in stock for what resort, he can game the voucher holders and tell them he is looking for Owners to rent to him and is unsuccessful in doing so. If he is truly unscrupulous, he would never fulfill a voucher with points unless those points are coming up on expiration. This forces customers who want to book far in advance into pricier cash reservations where he makes money on the spread. If a voucher holder gets to book a DVC stay, it is at the new higher price per point, so the Renter will be paying money out of their pocket for an equivalent stay, which goes into David's pocket (David's has stated the old points are at the old price, only new points are paid at the higher rate).
> 
> Of course, some people will never use those vouchers, so all of the money, whether it is the commission plus the 30% in holding for the Owner, or the full amount because the Owner issued a refund, goes into David's pocket.



This is a lot of assumption assuming the worst.  All of these are possibilities, but there is no evidence to suggest that he will operate under that manner.



> Yes, some Owners will keep the 70% and walk away, but as I've explained earlier, the voucher scheme makes up for that. What the voucher scheme cannot prevent is chargebacks eating through David's cash reserves. If Renters don't like the terms of the voucher, they will issue a chargeback. If enough do, David's voucher system will be under-funded and David's will go into bankruptcy.


I never disagreed that chargebacks could be successful and cause financial hardship.



> @CanadaDisney05  I find it interesting that you state that David's employees receive a commission on each booking, and even suggest an amount for that commission. While travel agents are typically commissioned, clerical employees typically are paid per hour. I haven't seen published anywhere how David's pays his employees. So, this causes me to ask you directly:
> 
> @CanadaDisney05  Are you in any way affiliated with David's? An employee, ex-employee, relative of an employee, investor, creditor, David's family member, David himself?


[/quote]

Just because I'm from Canada doesn't mean I know David from Canada......

No, I am in no way affiliated with David.  I've never even done business with David.  I don't know him.  Never met him.  Never met anyone who works there.  Other than the fact that I am an owner who could potentially in the future use David or any of the other brokerages if the need ever arised, I'm about as impartial on this subject as can be.

I don't know how much they make in commission.  It was an assumption.  I took a brief look at his website, and it looks like the vast majority of the staff are travel agents who are typically paid a commission.  I made up a number.  It could be high, it could be low.  It doesn't really matter.  It was just to illustrate that he has to pay his employees.   The $4.50 commission doesn't directly go into David's pockets as profit.  He has expenses.


----------



## Sandisw

It is in this thread somewhere that Davids has expiclity stated renters who use a voucher for Disney rooms will be charged rack rate,  They will not be eligible for the promotions.  He claims there is some reason he wouldn’t be allowed to secure them,


----------



## chicagodisneyguy

Sandisw said:


> It is in this thread somewhere that Davids has expiclity stated renters who use a voucher for Disney rooms will be charged rack rate,  They will not be eligible for the promotions.  He claims there is some reason he wouldn’t be allowed to secure them,



I've tried to keep up, but has anyone been allowed to book anything yet with their voucher?  If not, has David's given an indication as to when bookings will be allowed?


----------



## Marionnette

chicagodisneyguy said:


> I've tried to keep up, but has anyone been allowed to book anything yet with their voucher?  If not, has David's given an indication as to when bookings will be allowed?


I believe someone said that they will begin booking again in August. There’s a ton of dedicated reservations that they are peddling on the website. I don’t know if they are actually booking them or just haven’t updated their webpage. Some of them are for June. The BCV reservation for 6/7-613 @$19/pt has me choking back a laugh. I sincerely hope that no unsuspecting renter pays $4K+ for what will probably end up being canceled and replaced with a voucher.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> It is in this thread somewhere that Davids has expiclity stated renters who use a voucher for Disney rooms will be charged rack rate,  They will not be eligible for the promotions.  He claims there is some reason he wouldn’t be allowed to secure them,


So maybe there is a reason why he can't get the promotional offers.  I don't know the logistics.  The assumption that he is defrauding renters by claiming he can't secure the promotional rates but then paying the promotional rates himself and pocketing the difference (I know you didn't suggest this, but the response you are replying to was in response to another user who was claiming this) is a hell of an assumption based on nothing.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I am sorry but I find this pretty confusing.  Could you explain what your insurance is?  Credit card based?  Trip insurance?  Some type of umbrella?
It sounds like the whichever insurance you had based the claim on the Canadian government 'advising' no border crossing?
Then it sounds like the insurance company has not paid you.  Have you been paid?  If so could you add a breakdown of how much and for what?

What was the impact of David backing off of no refunds?[/QUOTE]




DGsAtBLT said:


> My insurance would cover some of those types of scenarios. Maybe not the broken bone one. I believe it even covered things like work revoking time off. So no, I was not willing to be out thousands. It actually also covered this pandemic, I imagine because I had the Canadian governments advising not to cross the border working in my favour, my complication was the insurance company wanting me to get money back from David’s first and David’s backing off of their firm no refunds.


----------



## starry_solo

GatorD said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. We had a rental at BCV for mid-April though David’s. I filed a claim with my CC travel insurance (CitiCard). I received the denial of claim this morning. The basis of the denial was because a full value voucher was issued. It did say I could re-file if voucher is unused after a year.
> 
> Not sure what I’m going to do next. If we take voucher, we would use it for a cash room reservation instead of DVC rental. It was only 2 studio nights but still not an insignificant sum of money since it was peak point season.



Here is the post @Kevin_W


----------



## Sandisw

CanadaDisney05 said:


> So maybe there is a reason why he can't get the promotional offers.  I don't know the logistics.  The assumption that he is defrauding renters by claiming he can't secure the promotional rates but then paying the promotional rates himself and pocketing the difference (I know you didn't suggest this, but the response you are replying to was in response to another user who was claiming this) is a hell of an assumption based on nothing.



He is a TA and I think it is a stretch to suggest there could be any rational reason why he is charging voucher clients rack rate.

Sorry, but him suggesting there would be no way to book those rates is laughable at best.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> So maybe there is a reason why he can't get the promotional offers.  I don't know the logistics.  The assumption that he is defrauding renters by claiming he can't secure the promotional rates but then paying the promotional rates himself and pocketing the difference (I know you didn't suggest this, but the response you are replying to was in response to another user who was claiming this) is a hell of an assumption based on nothing.



Are there any examples of other travel agents not being able to secure promotional offers on rooms?


----------



## Dracula

MIDisFan said:


> Are there any examples of other travel agents not being able to secure promotional offers on rooms?


None that I know of  A good friend is a TA booking Disney, she is always happy to get promotional offers for her customers!


----------



## banzai75

If you are a travel agent and the best rate you can get is rack rate then I’m not sure why anyone would use you.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> He is a TA and I think it is a stretch to suggest there could be any rational reason why he is charging voucher clients rack rate.
> 
> Sorry, but him suggesting there would be no way to book those rates is laughable at best.


At this point we are no longer debating based on the facts presented, but rather on conjecture.  I have no idea if you are right or wrong.  If you are correct and he can secure the promotional offers, but instead is pocketing the difference, then I am fully on your side.  I think that would be disgusting on his behalf.

Unless there is actual concrete evidence to suggest this is happening, I personally choose to give people the benefit of the doubt.  We'll have to agree to disagree.  But that is why we are all here, to discuss, not to promote groupthink.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> This is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Owner's have two choices.  Keep the 70% and keep the points.  They can then take those points and see if they can use them personally, or try and rent them out again which means further profit.  Worst case, the points expire and they lose 30%.  Second choice is to allow David's to re-rent the points, and then get 100%.  Overall, it's not perfect, but it's not too bad.
> 
> Renter's get one choice.  They get a voucher which can be used for several different options including a future DVC stay, or a booking through his travel agency (which could include booking hotel rooms through Disney).  Again, it's not a perfect solution for the renter, but it's still overall not that bad.
> 
> In order to allow the owner to keep the 70%, and then issue a 100% voucher to the renter, that requires excess cash.  Doing some rough math, David's in general keeps about 24% of the funds as a commission.  Now, he gives a chunk of that amount to his employees as their commission.  So l assume he (the company) only keeps about 13% as gross profit (which is different than profit.  He still has other expenses to cover) under normal circumstances.  So far, the owner has received about 53% of the total funds (14.50 / 19 x 0.7) that the renter paid, the employee has about 10% (2 / 19) , and David has 37% (1 - 16.50 / 19).  Still following me?  He now has to cover a 100% voucher with only 37% of the funds to help.  He is taking a 63% loss.  Which means, he is taking a major financial loss on those vouchers.
> 
> In the circumstances where the owner allows their points to be re-rented, everyone is technically made whole. In the circumstance where the owner keeps the 70%, David is taking a major financial loss, the owner is taking a smaller loss, and the renter is taking zero financial loss  (they are taking a qualitative loss).   Yes, some of the terms are a bit different on the voucher, but these are basically the terms that everyone is saying were missing from the original agreements that lead to the mess in the first place.  Again, it's not a perfect solution, but IMO it's about as much as you can ask for given the scenario.  All three parties are sharing the loss, with the broker taking the the brunt of it.



He's not covering vouchers with 37% of the funds if the owners are returning points in order to keep their 70%. If anything he stands to benefit if everyone took a voucher for future travel since now his prices have gone up.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> He's not covering vouchers with 37% of the funds if the owners are returning points in order to keep their 70%. If anything he stands to benefit if everyone took a voucher for future travel since now his prices have gone up.


You are correct.  In the situation where the owner refunds the money, it's basically breakeven (he upped his price, but he also upped the payout to the owner.  Either way, it's immaterial).  But in the situation where the owner keeps the money, he is put in a bind.  He's trying to do right by the renter, irregardless to what the owner's actions are.


----------



## spinchy

Sandisw said:


> He is a TA and I think it is a stretch to suggest there could be any rational reason why he is charging voucher clients rack rate.
> 
> Sorry, but him suggesting there would be no way to book those rates is laughable at best.


I remember the post you're referring to and felt it was ambiguous.   I felt that the response from David's employee  may have meant they had no extra or special discounts to be applied to such a booking.   Not necessarily that every booking would be full rack rate.   I could be wrong, but that was my impression when I read it.


----------



## Minniemoo15

I felt like the rack rate booking meant that he isn’t going to apply changes after it’s booked. So if you book a stay for December - you pay whatever today’s rate is - final sale.  If free dining or 40% off or whatever comes out next month, too bad. I could be wrong on this but I don’t think he wants to be putting the man power into changing these voucher reservations several times. Which doesn’t mean it’s right - the terms on that voucher are shady to say the least.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> You are correct.  In the situation where the owner refunds the money, it's basically breakeven (he upped his price, but he also upped the payout to the owner.  Either way, it's immaterial).  But in the situation where the owner keeps the money, he is put in a bind.  He's trying to do right by the renter, irregardless to what the owner's actions are.



It's immaterial to the Broker, not the renters. The renters with vouchers are still having to pay the extra for a future reservation. Actually raising the price only negatively effects renters. How do you see that as doing right by the renter? I assume owners with current contracts will not be paid that raise in price, only owners moving forward.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> It's immaterial to the Broker, not the renters. The renters with vouchers are still having to pay the extra for a future reservation. Actually raising the price only negatively effects renters. How do you see that as doing right by the renter? I assume owners with current contracts will not be paid that raise in price, only owners moving forward.


I guess I have a slightly different mindset.  I don't think its realistic that the broker would volunteer to make the owners and renters whole, while bankrupting itself.   In fact, I don't even think it would be possible if he wanted to.  So keep in mind, I'm starting with that point of view which may be different than yours.

Given that, since this is an unprecedented event, and nobody had a issue with the lack of clarity in the contract when it was signed (not the owners, not the renters, and not the brokers), everyone will share the loss to some extent, but nobody will be left with nothing.  There are several ways to do that.  He chose this method.  Again, without conjecture, I feel that this method is accomplishing that goal.


----------



## MIDisFan

Dracula said:


> None that I know of  A good friend is a TA booking Disney, she is always happy to get promotional offers for her customers!



Guess the assumptions about David's while maybe not true, aren't completely baseless.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I guess I have a slightly different mindset.  I don't think its realistic that the broker would volunteer to make the owners and renters whole, while bankrupting itself.   In fact, I don't even think it would be possible if he wanted to.  So keep in mind, I'm starting with that point of view which may be different than yours.
> 
> Given that, since this is an unprecedented event, and nobody had a issue with the lack of clarity in the contract when it was signed (not the owners, not the renters, and not the brokers), everyone will share the loss to some extent, but nobody will be left with nothing.  There are several ways to do that.  He chose this method.  Again, without conjecture, I feel that this method is accomplishing that goal.



I still fail to find where the Broker is taking a loss issuing a voucher worth X now but when it's redeemed it worth X minus 1. In all honesty the vouchers will more than likely end up with a value of zero once the CC charge backs start to go through. Just stinks for renters who may have taken the vouchers.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

MIDisFan said:


> I still fail to find where the Broker is taking a loss issuing a voucher worth X now but when it's redeemed it worth X minus 1. In all honesty the vouchers will more than likely end up with a value of zero once the CC charge backs start to go through. Just stinks for renters who may have taken the vouchers.


I stand ready to be corrected by those who know more about CC but I see the voucher as having an impact on the success of charge backs


----------



## KingRichard

Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?

Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!

Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children? 

How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?

If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?


----------



## Bearval

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I stand ready to be corrected by those who know more about CC but I see the voucher as having an impact on the success of charge backs


If you search the internet for travel vouchers you will see dozens of articles concerning airlines hotels and travel companies pushing vouchers now and why. (one major reason is the low redemption rate)They all tell you to demand a refund and they have to give it to you unless you canceled the trip first or if you have already accepted the voucher.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I can speak to this.  I have never made more than one rental a year.  In all the years probably 5 or so.  Yet one year I got an email from Disney about renting points.  Didn't keep it but it was kind of 'word to the wise' reminding me of the rules on renting.

There is clearly some line between me on every few years and people who have multiple contract out a time but I dont recall ever seeing a max.

That said I can see David owning whatever the max is and since he does not need to worry about annual pass or 11 months windows and pays bottom of market for cheap contracts that he has to have this as the third leg of his business.
The other being broker and insurer



KingRichard said:


> Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?
> 
> Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!
> 
> Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?
> 
> How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?
> 
> If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?


----------



## CanadaDisney05

MIDisFan said:


> I still fail to find where the Broker is taking a loss issuing a voucher worth X now but when it's redeemed it worth X minus 1. In all honesty the vouchers will more than likely end up with a value of zero once the CC charge backs start to go through. Just stinks for renters who may have taken the vouchers.


He's taking the loss because not every owner is giving him back the 70%, yet he's offering the voucher to every renter.

If the vouchers end up with a value of zero because the company goes out of business, it is what it is....  That doesn't make it a scam or a con.  You can't expect the company to worry about making people whole if that act will lead them out of business.  At the end of the day, everyone has to worry about their own well being first.  That's why renters and owners are so mad.  They are focusing on their own situation and want to be made whole.


----------



## Dracula

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I can speak to this.  I have never made more than one rental a year.  In all the years probably 5 or so.  Yet one year I got an email from Disney about renting points.  Didn't keep it but it was kind of 'word to the wise' reminding me of the rules on renting.
> 
> There is clearly some line between me on every few years and people who have multiple contract out a time but I dont recall ever seeing a max.
> 
> That said I can see David owning whatever the max is and since he does not need to worry about annual pass or 11 months windows and pays bottom of market for cheap contracts that he has to have this as the third leg of his business.
> The other being broker and insurer


The limit is 20 - no more than 20 reservations per year, unless you make all of them for you and your family.


----------



## dwight16

KingRichard said:


> Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?
> 
> Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!
> 
> Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?
> 
> How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?
> 
> If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?


So the way a cc works is I call up and dispute the charge at say chase. They ask why I tell them right then they take the charge off my card and take the money out of david’s account. They investigate you fill out forms. David would fight it and he would have to fill out forms.  Someone decides and that’s pretty final. How they would view the contract I have no idea but my guess is they side would interest paying customers. So then david would have a negative balance in his account he better hope they don’t have access to his accounts or things can get real dicey for him. This keeps happening he get a major negative balance the banks will want there money he will get cut off or taken to court. He can’t do business bc he can’t take credit cards.


----------



## Dracula

KingRichard said:


> Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?
> 
> Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!
> 
> Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?
> 
> How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?
> 
> If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?


Assuming David and his family are point-rich, using their own points to make their customers whole is similar to using their cash savings. I don't think either renters or David care whether new rentals are set up with David's cash or David's future points. It would be great if David is willing to put his personal assets on the line to make his customers whole. 

There is indeed a point limit set by Disney, a member can only amass 8,000 DVC points, with a maximum of 4,000 points at any one resort.

Moving cash to different accounts is not as easy as it sounds. I would think in bankruptcy court the judge would ask for the financial transactions of the business. Also, although David operates his rental empire as a sole proprietorship, I would think he set up business bank accounts to handle business transactions. He could of course declare a dividend and transfer funds to his personal accounts, but because of the sole proprietorship nature of his business, he may still need to surrender some of his assets to his creditors. A judge would not look kindly on a business owner that declared a large dividend just before his business went bankrupt.

Now, you may wonder who those creditors would be, since renters and owners are unlikely to file small claims in Ontario? It would be the very banks holding his business accounts, who are now pressured by credit card chargebacks.

As an interesting fact - I chose to send David a refund for one of my canceled reservations, because I was able to transfer those points to someone else within days from when they became available. His team advised me to return the 70% via PayPal to a different account than the one who paid me originally. Since they gave me the instructions in writing I don't worry too much about not fulfilling my contract, but it is a red flag which may indicate that some of his accounts, either PayPal or bank, may already be in withholding.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

dwight16 said:


> my guess is they side would interest paying customers


Just for clarification, credit card companies don't make the majority of their money from consumer's (you and me) who may pay interest.  They make their money from the merchants (David's) who get charged 2-4% for every credit card transaction they process.  If you paid David $1000, the credit card company gets about $30 off the top, and David gets $970.

I don't necessarily agree with you that the CC company will have a bias towards the side that they earn their revenue from, but if they did, they would be siding with David, not the renter.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Dracula said:


> The limit is 20 - no more than 20 reservations per year, unless you make all of them for you and your family.


Now that makes sense.  The first purchase was for DD when she was a cast member.  We got lots of one time use points and made multiple trips.  What a great time!


----------



## Bearval

dwight16 said:


> So the way a cc works is I call up and dispute the charge at say chase. They ask why I tell them right then they take the charge off my card and take the money out of david’s account. They investigate you fill out forms. David would fight it and he would have to fill out forms.  Someone decides and that’s pretty final. How they would view the contract I have no idea but my guess is they side would interest paying customers. So then david would have a negative balance in his account he better hope they don’t have access to his accounts or things can get real dicey for him. This keeps happening he get a major negative balance the banks will want there money he will get cut off or taken to court. He can’t do business bc he can’t take credit cards.


They will also look at what the "exchange " policy that was in place at the time.  If is says refund you get a refund.   If it says voucher then you would get a voucher.   Also vouchers redemptions tend to run way below 100% and from what I understand there is a 24 month time frame and once you book you cannot make any changes and it is non transferable.  I wouldn't be surprised if theses are redeemed at less than 70%.  Guess this is why airlines and travel  companies pressure you into thinking you have no choice but to accept a voucher.


----------



## Bearval

CanadaDisney05 said:


> He's taking the loss because not every owner is giving him back the 70%, yet he's offering the voucher to every renter.
> 
> If the vouchers end up with a value of zero because the company goes out of business, it is what it is....  That doesn't make it a scam or a con.  You can't expect the company to worry about making people whole if that act will lead them out of business.  At the end of the day, everyone has to worry about their own well being first.  That's why renters and owners are so mad.  They are focusing on their own situation and want to be made whole.


Don't feel too bad for him. It is not as dire a situation for him as it seems.  He took in say average of $20 per point from the renters, paid the owners 70% of an average of $15 which is $10.50. Say none of the owners give him back any money or allows him to re-rent the points.  So now he issues vouchers which if they are redeemed at 100% (which is unlikely.) He has to shell out $15 per point for the vouchers that get redeemed.. So far he took in $20 but put out $25.50 for a negative of $5.50 per point. However, vouchers have a far less than 100% redemption rate and with  from what I understand is  24 month expiration date and a no change rule and they are non transferable these may get redeemed at less than 70%. So he can wind up close to break even thru this mess.


----------



## lawboy2001

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Just for clarification, credit card companies don't make the majority of their money from consumer's (you and me) who may pay interest.  They make their money from the merchants (David's) who get charged 2-4% for every credit card transaction they process.  If you paid David $1000, the credit card company gets about $30 off the top, and David gets $970.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with you that the CC company will have a bias towards the side that they earn their revenue from, but if they did, they would be siding with David, not the renter.



Do you suppose that the 30$ the credit card company made from David in this transaction represents more money than they make from the renter, who may be their long standing cardholding customer?   No?  That was the other poster's point.  The credit card company surely earns more revenue from their individual card holder who is disputing this rental transaction than they do from the merchant on the other side of the dispute, in this case, David's.


----------



## CraigInPA

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Just for clarification, credit card companies don't make the majority of their money from consumer's (you and me) who may pay interest.  They make their money from the merchants (David's) who get charged 2-4% for every credit card transaction they process.  If you paid David $1000, the credit card company gets about $30 off the top, and David gets $970.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with you that the CC company will have a bias towards the side that they earn their revenue from, but if they did, they would be siding with David, not the renter.



Having run a business that processes tens of millions of dollars in no-card-present internet sales, I can tell you that credit card issuers side with the card holder more than 99% of the time. The only time a merchant like me wins is when the card holder has a history of baseless disputes.


----------



## Krandor

CanadaDisney05 said:


> He's taking the loss because not every owner is giving him back the 70%, yet he's offering the voucher to every renter.
> 
> If the vouchers end up with a value of zero because the company goes out of business, it is what it is....  That doesn't make it a scam or a con.  You can't expect the company to worry about making people whole if that act will lead them out of business.  At the end of the day, everyone has to worry about their own well being first.  That's why renters and owners are so mad.  They are focusing on their own situation and want to be made whole.



David's is not taking the loss. He's trying his best to not take any loss at all even a shared loss. 

He wanted owners to pay him back their money. David now has 100% of the money the renter paid. Does the renter get it? Nope. They get a voucher with horrible terms that are designed to make it as likely as possible that is not be used. 

Renters out a vacation and have a voucher that isn't designed to be used
Owner gets no money and has points that best case are worth less then they were before
David gets all the money.  

Don't see how david is the loser in what he has setup.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

CraigInPA said:


> Having run a business that processes tens of millions of dollars in no-card-present internet sales, I can tell you that credit card issuers side with the card holder more than 99% of the time. The only time a merchant like me wins is when the card holder has a history of baseless disputes.


I'm in charge of finance of a company who deals with tens of millions as well and in the past 10 years have never lost a card dispute.  Its all about having proper documentation.



lawboy2001 said:


> Do you suppose that the 30$ the credit card company made from David in this transaction represents more money than they make from the renter, who may be their long standing cardholding customer?   No?  That was the other poster's point.  The credit card company surely earns more revenue from their individual card holder who is disputing this rental transaction than they do from the merchant on the other side of the dispute, in this case, David's.


I do actually.  Because they don't make only $30 off of your transaction from him.  They get $30 from every $1000 of credit card transactions he processes.  Which is a lot higher volume than the $120 per year annual fee and some interest you may pay if your not paying your card on time.

Again, I don't think they are actually taking into consideration who they earn more money from.  I'm just informing that that is where the big money comes from.


----------



## CraigInPA

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I'm in charge of finance of a company who deals with tens of millions as well and in the past 10 years have never lost a card dispute.  Its all about having proper documentation.



I'll bet you are physically shipping a product and/or have card present transactions. Those are easy for a merchant to win.

But, I refuse to believe your assertion of zero. Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses. 

I sell electronic goods in real time, never see a physical card, don't have a verifiable signature, and no way to verify the email address used is that of the card holder. I.e., impossible to win a chargeback. 

In David's situation, he has sold a reservation that hasn't been delivered. He will likely lose chargeback disputes due to non-delivery of a purchased product, regardless of the "no refunds" policy.


----------



## TCRAIG

Dracula said:


> Assuming David and his family are point-rich, using their own points to make their customers whole is similar to using their cash savings. I don't think either renters or David care whether new rentals are set up with David's cash or David's future points. It would be great if David is willing to put his personal assets on the line to make his customers whole.
> 
> There is indeed a point limit set by Disney, a member can only amass 8,000 DVC points, with a maximum of 4,000 points at any one resort.
> 
> Moving cash to different accounts is not as easy as it sounds. I would think in bankruptcy court the judge would ask for the financial transactions of the business. Also, although David operates his rental empire as a sole proprietorship, I would think he set up business bank accounts to handle business transactions. He could of course declare a dividend and transfer funds to his personal accounts, but because of the sole proprietorship nature of his business, he may still need to surrender some of his assets to his creditors. A judge would not look kindly on a business owner that declared a large dividend just before his business went bankrupt.
> 
> Now, you may wonder who those creditors would be, since renters and owners are unlikely to file small claims in Ontario? It would be the very banks holding his business accounts, who are now pressured by credit card chargebacks.
> 
> As an interesting fact - I chose to send David a refund for one of my canceled reservations, because I was able to transfer those points to someone else within days from when they became available. His team advised me to return the 70% via PayPal to a different account than the one who paid me originally. Since they gave me the instructions in writing I don't worry too much about not fulfilling my contract, but it is a red flag which may indicate that some of his accounts, either PayPal or bank, may already be in withholding.


I refunded 2 reservations back to David’s via PayPal and it was the same account he used to pay me.


----------



## Dracula

TCRAIG said:


> I refunded 2 reservations back to David’s via PayPal and it was the same account he used to pay me.


Well, I double-checked. My original payment came from ”david”, and the repayment went to “team”. They both appear as Capitol Technologies, with the same avatar.


----------



## Mumof4mice

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I'm in charge of finance of a company who deals with tens of millions as well and in the past 10 years have never lost a card dispute. Its all about having proper documentation.



Must be some pretty powerful _proper documentation_. If only we could all be as competent.



CraigInPA said:


> Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.



This is our experience too.  It's one of the easiest loopholes scammers exploit.  I'm sure they share the hacks online, amongst their community.  We've literally supplied signed paperwork, close up photos and CCTV footage as proof, and still lost CCs.


----------



## Bearval

CraigInPA said:


> I'll bet you are physically shipping a product and/or have card present transactions. Those are easy for a merchant to win.
> 
> But, I refuse to believe your assertion of zero. Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.
> 
> I sell electronic goods in real time, never see a physical card, don't have a verifiable signature, and no way to verify the email address used is that of the card holder. I.e., impossible to win a chargeback.
> 
> In David's situation, he has sold a reservation that hasn't been delivered. He will likely lose chargeback disputes due to non-delivery of a purchased product, regardless of the "no refunds" policy.


IMHO Davids will lose the charge backs due to the ambiguity in the contract language, the no-refunds policy for the renter has to do if they fail to meet their obligations and they clearly did not.  If the language was clear he would have changed it for all new reservations going forward.  I believe the rents will have to wait until their date of arrival has past the ask Davids for a refund then if not refund is given (voucher is not a refund) then they can submit the chargeback.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

CraigInPA said:


> I'll bet you are physically shipping a product and/or have card present transactions. Those are easy for a merchant to win.
> 
> But, I refuse to believe your assertion of zero. Any time a card holder claims their card was improperly used, even when a physical shipping has taken place to their house, the merchant loses.
> 
> I sell electronic goods in real time, never see a physical card, don't have a verifiable signature, and no way to verify the email address used is that of the card holder. I.e., impossible to win a chargeback.
> 
> In David's situation, he has sold a reservation that hasn't been delivered. He will likely lose chargeback disputes due to non-delivery of a purchased product, regardless of the "no refunds" policy.


Sorry I misread your previous post.  Yes we provide in person tourism services so the majority of our transactions are done in person.  From time to time we process over the phone.  In Canada, chip technology has actually been common place for probably well over 10 years now, so the volume of Canadians with chargebacks is limited.  We do get many Americans though who didn't have chips for the longest time.

So the we actually have very few chargebacks.  The odd time we do have one, we have signed and dated documentation from the customer indicating that they personally received the service.  This is why we have never (atleast since I have been in my role) had a successful chargeback against us.


----------



## Sandisw

KingRichard said:


> Has anyone received a voucher yet and can they post it please. Everyone is claiming this and that yet one post said he was charging rack rates with no proof?
> 
> Also I stated before that I believe David and family members more then likely own thousands of points themselves and can use those points to keep the business running. He would more then likely have to wait monthly for more UY points to be added to his accounts!
> 
> Someone posted you can only do 10 rentals per year. Sure 10x300=3,000 points! Wife has same? Adult children?
> 
> How about transfer of points to employees? 1,000 points?
> 
> If Davids was going bankrupt then would he have not done it after the first 2 weeks? I have never even looked at bankruptcy so can't tell how it works or how fast, but it would seem to me that you would go silent and transfer all remaining cash to different accounts to avoid charge backs?



There is a post in this thread where they received an email from Davids stating that a cash reservation through Disney will be charged rack rate,  The renter inquired and posted the response here,

So, we have a confirmed report that is his plan.  Here it is:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...rsement-or-rescheduling.3796922/post-61841274


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> There is a post in this thread where they received an email from Davids stating that a cash reservation through Disney will be charged rack rate,  The renter inquired and posted the response here,
> 
> So, we have a confirmed report that is his plan.  Here it is:
> 
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...rsement-or-rescheduling.3796922/post-61841274


Reading that response, my interpretation is different.  My interpretation is that whatever the rate is on the Disney website that day is what you get.  What they are trying to say is that as a travel agent they don't get access to any "hidden discounts" that the average consumer can't find on the website.  The use of the word "rack rate" is confusing.


----------



## MIDisFan

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Reading that response, my interpretation is different.  My interpretation is that whatever the rate is on the Disney website that day is what you get.  What they are trying to say is that as a travel agent they don't get access to any "hidden discounts" that the average consumer can't find on the website.  The use of the word "rack rate" is confusing.



Have to agree with that interpretation. They use the term rack rate but go on to say whatever the price is on the website is the price u pay. If there is a promotion that you have access to on the web site that would be what you pay. They just don't have any non published discounts available.


----------



## Sandisw

CanadaDisney05 said:


> Reading that response, my interpretation is different.  My interpretation is that whatever the rate is on the Disney website that day is what you get.  What they are trying to say is that as a travel agent they don't get access to any "hidden discounts" that the average consumer can't find on the website.  The use of the word "rack rate" is confusing.



Now you are playing with words,  Rack rate is always full price.  It has never been defined as anything different.

Again, feel free to keep defending Davids,  You have that right,  But, to try to say he doesn’t mean rack rate to mean rack rate?  Now it’s just getting silly


----------



## banzai75

Terms used in the hotel industry to describe the cost to a customers that request accommodations for the same day without prior booking arrangements . The rack rate price *tends to be more expensive* than the rate that the customer could have received if he/she used a travel agency or third-party service. Rack rates can vary based on the day that the room is requested. For instance, the rack rate may be more expensive on weekends, which are usually high travel days.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/rack-rate.html 

A hotel rack rate is the "published rate," or "the *maximum* a property charges for a room," according to Frommer's Travel Guides. It is sometimes quoted to potential customers over the phone, and it may be displayed on the room door. Either way, it's similar to the sticker price on a car: The only people likely to pay the rack rate are those who are unaware they can obtain a discount. 

*rack rate*
Slang for rent at full asking price with only the minimal build-out or other allowances usually quoted to prospects. No concessions.

What is the meaning / definition of Rack Rate in the hospitality industry?
When it comes to setting prices for rooms, establishing the highest rate is important. This rate is called the Rack Rate, and it is from this *maximum* price that all other rates take their lead. But that is not to say that one Rack Rate will apply to every room in a hotel. No. With rack rate setting it is essential to apply a different rate to each room category, otherwise occupancy (and therefore revenue) could be adversely affected.


----------



## SageG

MIDisFan said:


> Have to agree with that interpretation. They use the term rack rate but go on to say whatever the price is on the website is the price u pay. If there is a promotion that you have access to on the web site that would be what you pay. They just don't have any non published discounts available.


Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount?  My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).  

I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate.  I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation.  If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

Sandisw said:


> Now you are playing with words,  Rack rate is always full price.  It has never been defined as anything different.
> 
> Again, feel free to keep defending Davids,  You have that right,  But, to try to say he doesn’t mean rack rate to mean rack rate?  Now it’s just getting silly





JasonV said:


> So whatever the Disney site rates are at the time of booking is the price that would apply for you.  We do not get any additional discounts by booking as an agent.


This looks like it was communicated in a quick email.  This doesn't look like it came from a legal document where you have to analyze every word carefully.  Someone probably just used the wrong word without checking it over.  They used the term rack rate, but quickly followup clarifying that you pay whatever the published rate is on Disney's website at the time of booking.

I'm not saying I'm right.  I'm just saying that I don't think that post was conclusive evidence that David is paying discounted prices to Disney, then charging the customer rack rate, in order to pocket the difference.


----------



## Sandisw

SageG said:


> Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount?  My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).
> 
> I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate.  I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation.  If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.



The voucher credit includes his commission.  His statement regarding rack rate supports that he books at the lower rate to ensure he still gets that commission,  Until I see someone post thst they qualified for any promotion being given, then I think his plan is to indeed charge full price on cash stays.

If not, he could have very easily allowed those with canceled trips to rebook using the free dining that was offered to all guests that had reservations canceled  I find it interesting he did not seem to be allowing that. I wonder why?.


----------



## CanadaDisney05

SageG said:


> Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount?  My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).



I agree with that.  I don't think anybody is suggesting that David is the greatest travel agent in the world that would do anything to save his clients a few dollars.  But the accusations here are that he is using the Covid situation to offer these vouchers which force clients to buy through him so that he can pay Disney discounted prices, then charging the clients rack rates in order to line his own pockets.  There's a big difference between doing that vs just not dedicating the resources to constantly monitoring the Disney website to get the client the absolute best deal.  Not everything is black and white.  There is somewhere in between the two.  It just doesn't fit the narrative here.



> I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate.  I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation.  If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.



Does that even matter though?  That has no effect on the renter or buyer.  That is between him and Disney.


----------



## SageG

CanadaDisney05 said:


> I agree with that.  I don't think anybody is suggesting that David is the greatest travel agent in the world that would do anything to save his clients a few dollars.  But the accusations here are that he is using the Covid situation to offer these vouchers which force clients to buy through him so that he can pay Disney discounted prices, then charging the clients rack rates in order to line his own pockets.  There's a big difference between doing that vs just not dedicating the resources to constantly monitoring the Disney website to get the client the absolute best deal.  Not everything is black and white.  There is somewhere in between the two.  It just doesn't fit the narrative here.
> 
> 
> 
> Does that even matter though?  That has no effect on the renter or buyer.  That is between him and Disney.



I absolutely think it matters as it would be interesting to understand his incentives and if they align with the voucher recipient.  Here it is clear that they do not if the situation works the way I'm expecting that it will.  I'm a renter, so I'm trying to determine if it makes sense to accept the new terms and conditions of the voucher program.  As part of that assessment, I'm trying to determine the risks of misalignment of my interests with David's (as anyone should when considering a new contract) and this is a large one as far as cash bookings are concerned.

I'm sure David is being advised by lawyers now of exactly what he can and cannot say to try to save his business, which has led to a less than transparent process.  The terms and conditions of the voucher that he offered me for my cancelled reservation could not have been written to be more slanted in his favor, so that coupled with the lack of transparency leaves me and everyone else to have to read into those terms and conditions what the worst possible outcome may be so we can determine if we want to accept that worst possible outcome as what might actually happen to us.  You seem to be willing to give David the benefit of the doubt, which is probably driven by you not being an owner or a renter that is tangled up in this mess.  I'm not willing to do the same as I must look out for what is best for myself just as you've mentioned you would expect everyone to do in this scenario.


----------



## MIDisFan

SageG said:


> Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount?  My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).
> 
> I'd be interested in understanding how his kickback from Disney as a travel agent is affected by a discount to rack rate.  I'm assuming he gets a fixed percentage of the total booking cost as compensation.  If that's true, then not only would David be using his resources to save his customers money, but he'd be cutting himself out of a portion of his commission by doing so.



That's a good question and one that would need to be addressed in the terms of the voucher before I'd be willing to accept one. I'm not sure it would require a lot more resources than what it requires now if he has a separate department for travel. The problem would be addressing balances on vouchers that end up with a remaining balance if a discount comes out.


----------



## 3babiesmom

At this point, I’d pay full rack rates if I was guaranteed a reservation!!!  It’s the guarantee that I’m concerned about!!


----------



## CanadaDisney05

SageG said:


> I absolutely think it matters as it would be interesting to understand his incentives and if they align with the voucher recipient.  Here it is clear that they do not if the situation works the way I'm expecting that it will.  I'm a renter, so I'm trying to determine if it makes sense to accept the new terms and conditions of the voucher program.  As part of that assessment, I'm trying to determine the risks of misalignment of my interests with David's (as anyone should when considering a new contract) and this is a large one as far as cash bookings are concerned.
> 
> I'm sure David is being advised by lawyers now of exactly what he can and cannot say to try to save his business, which has led to a less than transparent process.  The terms and conditions of the voucher that he offered me for my cancelled reservation could not have been written to be more slanted in his favor, so that coupled with the lack of transparency leaves me and everyone else to have to read into those terms and conditions what the worst possible outcome may be so we can determine if we want to accept that worst possible outcome as what might actually happen to us.  You seem to be willing to give David the benefit of the doubt, which is probably driven by you not being an owner or a renter that is tangled up in this mess.  I'm not willing to do the same as I must look out for what is best for myself just as you've mentioned you would expect everyone to do in this scenario.


I don't really disagree with anything your saying here.  We all have to look out for our best interest and analyze the risk and compare it to our own risk tolerance.

Like you said, I'm really a neutral third party in this conversation.  I find it interesting because unfortunately it's a bit of a dilemma for everyone.  The likelihood that everyone comes out whole is pretty low.  I am curious about how it all turns out though and hoping everyone gets made as whole as possible.  I am not rooting against anyone here.

Maybe I am being a bit defensive of the business for no real reason other than the fact that in my point of view they are getting unfairly criticized in a public forum without representation, and based on very limited evidence.  There has basically been a whole story being presented as fact here that they are forcing renters into accepting these vouchers so that they can sell them cash rooms at full rack rate while paying Disney discounted rates in order to pocket the difference.   When the evidence was presented, it was a 3 line email where everyone is getting hung up on a single word that is clearly being used in the wrong context.  It doesn't mean that everyone here is wrong, and David's is not doing what is being suggested, but I need a little bit more of concrete evidence before publicly shaming them.


----------



## momincolorado

SageG said:


> Right, but the better question is if you book a cash booking now at the current rack rate and at a later date a discount is offered by Disney, would you get the benefit of that discount?  My guess is the answer is no because of what a previous poster noted - David isn't going to want to spend resources constantly updating cash reservations to get the voucher user a better rate (even if that means cash savings for the voucher user since they may have had to kick in cash if their voucher wasn't sufficient to cover the total cost).


The cash booking is subject to the voucher T&Cs, which clearly state that all sales are final, no modifications. So regardless of whether they truly meant “rack rates” or it was just a poor choice of words, it is clear that no discounts/promotions released subsequent to your booking would be applied. Furthermore, ref item #10 in the T&Cs, in the event of a second wave and resort closure, you would not be entitled to any re-booking or refund even though Disney would in fact refund David’s. Needless to say, this is NOT how travel agents normally operate. But it’s an amazing deal...for David!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

How’s that song go..,take the money and run ..,


----------



## Kevin_W

Since I just got my voucher offer, I emailed to clarify when and how I could use it.  I'll post back here if/when I get an answer.


momincolorado said:


> The cash booking is subject to the voucher T&Cs, which clearly state that all sales are final, no modifications. So regardless of whether they truly meant “rack rates” or it was just a poor choice of words, it is clear that no discounts/promotions released subsequent to your booking would be applied.
> 
> Furthermore, ref item #10 in the T&Cs, in the event of a second wave and resort closure, you would not be entitled to any re-booking or refund even though Disney would in fact refund David’s. Needless to say, this is NOT how travel agents normally operate. But it’s an amazing deal...for David!



The first part of that I'm actually fine with.  If I buy a car for $$ and a month later the manufacturer discounts that car by $2000 I might wish I'd waited, but at the time I determined that the price I paid for the car was fair.  Same for a hotel room.

I'm not okay with the second part, where if anything goes wrong my money evaporates into the broker's pocket.


----------



## cmrdgrs

CanadaDisney05 said:


> <snip> _*in my point of view they are getting unfairly criticized in a public forum without representation, and based on very limited evidence*_.  <...snip>


Welcome to the internet and the court of public opinion.  Why do you think that David has fiercely defended his "reputation" for all these years?  And in protecting his "reputation" he promoted "protection" that IMO was smoke and mirrors.  The internet is a rough neighborhood sometimes.  IMO I have to disagree.  We do have "evidence" -- we have cancelled reservations, unhappy renters (and owners) and future travel vouchers being issued with terms that people don't like nor do they think the terms are 100% fair to the renters.  We have zero evidence from David that he will actually stay in business.  So, to say we don't have "evidence" is ridiculous.

I can't tell you the number of times I was unfairly criticized by David or a representative of David's for saying that I thought renting from a private owner was superior to renting from a broker.  And as I stated earlier in this thread my renters all got repaid in full for cancelled reservations -- and David's renters?  Yeah, to quote Hertz "not exactly"

I can't say I have any sympathy right now after how I was treated by him and/or his representatives.  Karma sometimes has a way of coming back around I'm afraid.


----------



## Dracula

Kevin_W said:


> Since I just got my voucher offer, I emailed to clarify when and how I could use it.  I'll post back here if/when I get an answer.
> 
> 
> The first part of that I'm actually fine with.  If I buy a car for $$ and a month later the manufacturer discounts that car by $2000 I might wish I'd waited, but at the time I determined that the price I paid for the car was fair.  Same for a hotel room.
> 
> I'm not okay with the second part, where if anything goes wrong my money evaporates into the broker's pocket.


Nice example - but it makes a difference with a car because supposedly you took possession of a car when you paid for it, whereas in our case renters book rooms that would be occupied in the future. Typically, non-cancelable cruise, airfare and hotel reservations can be floated down to a lower price, when and if such a lower price becomes available; obviously there can be no price adjustment after the trip, or even when the reservation becomes non-refundable. Therefore it is hard to understand why David would refuse to float down the price to the better offer available from Disney, when all other travel agents are willing to do so. In any case, David should not treat voucher customers any different than regular cash customers, if he wants to maintain the perception (illusion?) that his vouchers hold real value.

I am curious, why would you rather accept a voucher with restrictions when you can have a credit card chargeback, and book again whenever, wherever you want?


----------



## Sandisw

Kevin_W said:


> Since I just got my voucher offer, I emailed to clarify when and how I could use it.  I'll post back here if/when I get an answer.
> 
> 
> The first part of that I'm actually fine with.  If I buy a car for $$ and a month later the manufacturer discounts that car by $2000 I might wish I'd waited, but at the time I determined that the price I paid for the car was fair.  Same for a hotel room.
> 
> I'm not okay with the second part, where if anything goes wrong my money evaporates into the broker's pocket.



Yes, keep us posted, especially if renters with vouchers are eligible for Disney promotions that are advertised on the website.


----------



## spinchy

Dracula said:


> Nice example - but it makes a difference with a car because supposedly you took possession of a car when you paid for it, whereas in our case renters book rooms that would be occupied in the future. Typically, non-cancelable cruise, airfare and hotel reservations can be floated down to a lower price, when and if such a lower price becomes available; obviously there can be no price adjustment after the trip, or even when the reservation becomes non-refundable. Therefore it is hard to understand why David would refuse to float down the price to the better offer available from Disney, when all other travel agents are willing to do so. In any case, David should not treat voucher customers any different than regular cash customers, if he wants to maintain the perception (illusion?) that his vouchers hold real value.
> 
> I am curious, why would you rather accept a voucher with restrictions when you can have a credit card chargeback, and book again whenever, wherever you want?



I’d suggest 2 reasons David won’t do it.  1) his commission through Disney is a percentage of the sale.  When travel agents take the time to do this for you (as the good ones always do) they’re costing themselves money to do what’s best for you. 
 2) it takes a LOT of time even for a small volume travel agent (even during non-Covid times wait time on Disney’s travel agent line can be extremely long).  If he ends up with a lot of bookings through Disney, he doesn’t want to tie his staff up checking for sales that are going to lose money for him.


----------



## Sandisw

spinchy said:


> I’d suggest 2 reasons David won’t do it.  1) his commission through Disney is a percentage of the sale.  When travel agents take the time to do this for you (as the good ones always do) they’re costing themselves money to do what’s best for you.
> 2) it takes a LOT of time even for a small volume travel agent (even during non-Covid times wait time on Disney’s travel agent line can be extremely long).  If he ends up with a lot of bookings through Disney, he doesn’t want to tie his staff up checking for sales that are going to lose money for him.



I do understand that he may not want to change for a better promotion. But, stating a renter will pay rack rate, indicates no promotions will be allowed.

Hopefully, someone will get clarification that the email that quoted that was not accurate. Because if it is, then it is just one more move on his part that doesn’t seem to benefit anyone but him.


----------



## 3babiesmom

banzai75 said:


> Hello everyone.  I am a renter. It sounds like most of you are owners and I am trying to understand my options with David.  We were scheduled for first week of April.  I am not a lawyer.
> 
> My original contract from January doesn't state anything about a force majeure clause.   My thought is that I entered into a contract whereby I pay money and owner was supposed to provide accommodations.  Since resorts closed, and service not provided I am entitled to a refund.  From Disney sites, it says that all reservations are cancelled automatically and points are returned to owners automatically.
> 
> I don't understand why I can't just a refund and why I have to do this future credit.  The owners got their points back.  I should get my money back? It's very restrictive.  I'm thinking of just initiating a chargeback dispute with Chase Sapphire.
> 
> Here is the travel credit email from David:
> 
> Thank you for your patience in waiting for our communications.
> Below are the Terms and Conditions for the David's Vacation Club Rentals Travel Credit. Once you've had the opportunity to review the information, we look forward to receiving your response and would ask that you please indicate your reply by clicking on a button below.
> *Terms & Conditions*
> 
> The Credit will be for the entire value of the original booking, less any compensation already received, and the Credit can only be applied to one subsequent booking. If the value of the Credit exceeds the value of the subsequent booking, the remaining differential in value will not be refunded, nor will it be available for extra's or add-on's such as dining plans or park tickets. If the value of the subsequent booking exceeds the value of the Credit, the guest will be responsible for paying the difference.
> You may not assign or transfer the Credit or any rights, interests or obligations hereunder. You may not combine this Credit with any other credit or promotional offer.
> Any Reservation booked using the Credit is FINAL SALE – NO EXCEPTIONS. This includes, but is not limited to, date modification, resale and changes to the Guest names used for the original booking.
> Credit has no cash value.
> The Travel Credit will not be reissued if it is lost or stolen. Keep this information in a safe location.
> Credit is available for use up to 24 months after the date of issue. Credit must be used within 24 months.
> Credit can be used for any service offered by David's Vacation Club Rentals including but not limited to Point Rentals, Cash Bookings at Disney owned resorts, Cruise Bookings or Adventure by Disney bookings.
> Credits cannot be applied to Park Tickets, Dining Plans, or insurance plans.
> In the case of Point Rentals, upon requesting a reservation with your credit code, you will be asked to authorize a new deposit. Once the code has been confirmed, your deposit will be refunded and the reservation process will continue.
> In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals does not guarantee the availability of services. The Credit is subject to availability of the selected product at time of booking.
> No terms and conditions, other than those stated herein, and no agreement or understanding, oral or written, in any way purporting to modify these Terms and Conditions shall be binding.
> These terms and conditions shall be governed by, and interpreted in accordance with, the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein.
> David's Vacation Club Rentals reserves the right to change, add, modify, or eliminate any element of the Credit or any type of service or activity currently available with the Credit.
> Credit represents full and final satisfaction of any and all obligations set out in the original Rental Agreement and David's Vacation Club Rentals is released from any further rights, obligations or performance of the original Rental Agreement.
> 
> Thanks everyone!



So #9, does this mean I have to pay him again until my voucher is confirmed?


----------



## Amymouse13

The concept of cash booking is nice minus he only pays deposit when he books (supposedly) and if Disney is shut down again... No room for you!  I'm not sure which of those two aspects concerns me more...


----------



## VeroGuy

3babiesmom said:


> So #9, does this mean I have to pay him again until my voucher is confirmed?


Yes, that is my understanding of the terms.

From a technological standpoint this is probably because that is how his current system is setup and it was the easiest route for him to go.

Why he couldn’t take the funds from the voucher to do this I’m not sure.


----------



## Kevin_W

Dracula said:


> Nice example - but it makes a difference with a car because supposedly you took possession of a car when you paid for it, whereas in our case renters book rooms that would be occupied in the future. Typically, non-cancelable cruise, airfare and hotel reservations can be floated down to a lower price, when and if such a lower price becomes available; obviously there can be no price adjustment after the trip, or even when the reservation becomes non-refundable. Therefore it is hard to understand why David would refuse to float down the price to the better offer available from Disney, when all other travel agents are willing to do so. In any case, David should not treat voucher customers any different than regular cash customers, if he wants to maintain the perception (illusion?) that his vouchers hold real value.
> 
> I am curious, why would you rather accept a voucher with restrictions when you can have a credit card chargeback, and book again whenever, wherever you want?



Good points.  The car isn't a perfect example, but it's still something I'd be willing to live with.

Regarding accepting the voucher vs getting my money back through the credit card - I wouldn't rather have the voucher.  Going through the credit card first is what I'm trying (first trip insurance, since that's easier to process than chargeback for such an old charge; if that doesn't work I'll try chargeback).


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Exactly 





Amymouse13 said:


> The concept of cash booking is nice minus he only pays deposit when he books (supposedly) and if Disney is shut down again... No room for you!  I'm not sure which of those two aspects concerns me more...


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> The voucher credit includes his commission.  His statement regarding rack rate supports that he books at the lower rate to ensure he still gets that commission,  Until I see someone post thst they qualified for any promotion being given, then I think his plan is to indeed charge full price on cash stays.
> 
> If not, he could have very easily allowed those with canceled trips to rebook using the free dining that was offered to all guests that had reservations canceled  I find it interesting he did not seem to be allowing that. I wonder why?.


A canceled reservation using points is not eligible for free dining only cash reservations were.


----------



## Sandisw

Bearval said:


> A canceled reservation using points is not eligible for free dining only cash reservations were.



Not true  Guests with canceled DVC reservations could have booked a free dining cash package, They just could not pay with points, but they were allowed to book as a cash guest. 

Renters from Davids with vouchers, who are allowed to book cash reservations with those vouchers, would indeed had been eligible to book one of those trips while it was offered,

From my understanding, renters were not given that option as a choice for their voucher. Until that promotion was pulled last week, it was available for stays through September.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

That offer for free dining was also good to DVC people if they wished to rebook as cash


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Clarify - not from David just Disney


----------



## suemom2kay

cmrdgrs said:


> I can't tell you the number of times I was unfairly criticized by David or a representative of David's for saying that I thought renting from a private owner was superior to renting from a broker.


Far Superior!


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> That offer for free dining was also good to DVC people if they wished to rebook as cash


So you are saying if people booked thru Davids by renting points they were then eligible to us the voucher he gave th to rebook and get free dining?


----------



## Dracula

Bearval said:


> So you are saying if people booked thru Davids by renting points they were then eligible to us the voucher he gave th to rebook and get free dining?


Yes, I think that was indeed the case - just that David was not yet making new reservations last week. However, cash reservations would have been more expensive than rentals, with all the same strings attached - so not sure this would have been a better deal.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Why again is David not making any reservations with his voucher ??


----------



## Bearval

Dracula said:


> Yes, I think that was indeed the case - just that David was not yet making new reservations last week. However, cash reservations would have been more expensive than rentals, with all the same strings attached - so not sure this would have been a better deal.


You are right it wouldn't be a better deal


----------



## Madame

Bearval said:


> So you are saying if people booked thru Davids by renting points they were then eligible to us the voucher he gave th to rebook and get free dining?


Yes, they were.


----------



## spinchy

Madame said:


> Yes, they were.


I can 100% confirm this.  I had my Davids trip cancelled and called direct to Disney to book free dining promotion for myself.  No reason he couldn’t have booked it for me and applied the voucher if he’d been willing to.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Yes, I think that was indeed the case - just that David was not yet making new reservations last week. However, cash reservations would have been more expensive than rentals, with all the same strings attached - so not sure this would have been a better deal.



A renter with a voucher could have booked a moderate resort with free dining and that very well could have been as good of a deal as a points reservation.

It really does all depend on how many guests,,,even with a deluxe room for a family of 4 with free dining might make it as affordable as a DVC room with a discount.

Hopefully, a renter will get more clarification about cash bookings and post here if they indeed they can use vouchers for Disney promotions.


----------



## Sandisw

spinchy said:


> I can 100% confirm this.  I had my Davids trip cancelled and called direct to Disney to book free dining promotion for myself.  No reason he couldn’t have booked it for me and applied the voucher if he’d been willing to.



Did you ask him to book it via the voucher and were turned down?


----------



## New Mouse

Why anyone thinks David is going to book them a deal is beyond me.  Not a single thing hes done thus far would lead me to even wonder about that.


----------



## Amymouse13

New Mouse said:


> Why anyone thinks David is going to book them a deal is beyond me.  Not a single thing hes done thus far would lead me to even wonder about that.



I'm still thinking believing the voucher will result in a vacation might be wishful thinking too... Unfortunately.


----------



## 3babiesmom

Amymouse13 said:


> I'm still thinking believing the voucher will result in a vacation might be wishful thinking too... Unfortunately.


But really what other option do we have other than the voucher?  We can't communication with the owner.   Don't credit card companies have a time limitation on chargebacks?


----------



## Amymouse13

3babiesmom said:


> But really what other option do we have other than the voucher?  We can't communication with the owner.   Don't credit card companies have a time limitation on chargebacks?



I'm doing chargeback.  If it fails I guess I'll try voucher but I'll also be prepared I'm probably getting nothing


----------



## Dracula

3babiesmom said:


> But really what other option do we have other than the voucher?  We can't communication with the owner.   Don't credit card companies have a time limitation on chargebacks?


Yes, the time limit is generally 60 days from when the services were supposed to be received.


----------



## Sandisw

3babiesmom said:


> But really what other option do we have other than the voucher?  We can't communication with the owner.   Don't credit card companies have a time limitation on chargebacks?



I think CC do have a limit, but in this case, I think that limit doesn’t kick in yet because the delivery of the service has just passed, 

So, many renters are filing CC chargebacks and we have at least one report so far that the got notification the case is closed and they did indeed get their money back.


----------



## spinchy

Sandisw said:


> Did you ask him to book it via the voucher and were turned down?


To be honest, I didn’t trust him to get it done in time.   I’d tried to contact him ahead of time and kept getting canned responses to the effect of ‘we’re not done dealing with the people ahead of you yet’. I don’t mean this critically, I’m sure they were overwhelmed.   But I knew I wanted this deal and needed to act quickly to get a date I could use, so I chose to handle it on my own.    When I booked, I explained my situation with the existing DVC booking through a broker and Disney was quite happy to book the promotion for me.  Absolutely no reason David’s wouldn’t have been able to make the same booking and then apply the voucher to it if they’d wanted to.


----------



## momincolorado

3babiesmom said:


> But really what other option do we have other than the voucher?  We can't communication with the owner.   Don't credit card companies have a time limitation on chargebacks?


60 days from when the reservation was cancelled not from when it was booked. Mine was booked last August, I called Chase last month and initiated chargeback. Chase placed a provisional credit back on my account and David’s has two billing cycles to respond. We did see a report of a successful chargeback on this thread last week, I believe it was with Chase.


----------



## 3babiesmom

momincolorado said:


> 60 days from when the reservation was cancelled not from when it was booked. Mine was booked last August, I called Chase last month and initiated chargeback. Chase placed a provisional credit back on my account and David’s has two billing cycles to respond. We did see a report of a successful chargeback on this thread last week, I believe it was with Chase.


That is really encouraging!  Thank you!


----------



## Bearval

Madame said:


> Yes, they were.


Well it that is true than any DVC member or their guests( since David's customers who got vouchers were guests of the DVC owners)who had their vacation canceled would have be eligible too. I find this hard to believe.


----------



## _auroraborealis_

Bearval said:


> Well it that is true than any DVC member or their guests( since David's customers who got vouchers were guests of the DVC owners)who had their vacation canceled would have be eligible too. I find this hard to believe.


It was explicitly true. Had to book by phone.

Not sure why it is hard to believe.


----------



## Bearval

_auroraborealis_ said:


> It was explicitly true. Had to book by phone.
> 
> Not sure why it is hard to believe.


Did you have to pay cash for the new reservation or did you use points


----------



## _auroraborealis_

Bearval said:


> Did you have to pay cash for the new reservation or did you use points


Cash. That is the thing. Anyone with any reservation was eligible for the cash free dining offer.


----------



## Bearval

_auroraborealis_ said:


> Cash. That is the thing. Anyone with any reservation was eligible for the cash free dining offer.


Ok i misunderstood,  I didn't think you could get the offer by using points. So if you had any type of reservation you had to use cash to rebook to get the free dining.


----------



## Madame

Bearval said:


> Ok i misunderstood,  I didn't think you could get the offer by using points. So if you had any type of reservation you had to use cash to rebook to get the free dining.


Yes a cash booking.  Only good through Aug 31 or so which I assume would make it a non-starter for David’s as they are not allowing summer rebookings.


----------



## Madame

Bearval said:


> Well it that is true than any DVC member or their guests( since David's customers who got vouchers were guests of the DVC owners)who had their vacation canceled would have be eligible too. I find this hard to believe.


This is how I knew it to be true.  Posted in the resorts board somewhere.  I had sent the screenshot to my renter a while back which is why I have it.


----------



## suemom2kay

Sandisw said:


> A renter with a voucher could have booked a moderate resort with free dining and that very well could have been as good of a deal as a points reservation.
> 
> It really does all depend on how many guests,,,even with a deluxe room for a family of 4 with free dining might make it as affordable as a DVC room with a discount.
> 
> Hopefully, a renter will get more clarification about cash bookings and post here if they indeed they can use vouchers for Disney promotions.


Even the summer 25% off is better then points in some cases.  I looked at 6 nights in a one bedroom I think (I had posted about it earlier in this thread) and it was less than a points reservation same resort, same dates.  If David trully plans on helping people, he needs to start making good on his voucher...  But he won't.  I predict he's gonna keep all funds he's collected and RUN!


----------



## _auroraborealis_

A good rule of thumb is that Disney is always ready to take money. The FD offer could not be used on a points booking, but if you had a points booking and wanted to throw cash at a new booking, sure, have FD that might not even be super-usable given that TS may be closed or heavily constrained.


----------



## crisi

cmrdgrs said:


> Please don't lecture me on people dying.  I've had one relative and two friends die due to complications from Covid (these three people died without family by their side, and I was not allowed to go to the funerals).  So, yes in my world people are dying.  I'm also taking loans to make ends meet to keep paying my own bills due to lost business thanks to Covid.
> 
> You and I don't have to agree.  I'm allowed to have my perspective and you are allowed to not like it.
> 
> If the owner has a way-- I personally feel that renters should be refunded.  I've stated it before, I've stated again, and I still feel this way.  Nothing you can say will sway me any other way.



I'm sorry for your losses, and now I really don't understand why you think this isn't happening in your world or why its different than grandpa ending up in the ICU after a heart attack and you can't go.  And for reference, I'm out about $6k for a vacation myself over this mess.


----------



## crisi

I'm wondering about the free dining offer.....Disney is going to have a restaurant problem when they open.  Many Disney restaurants are too crowded to social distance in.  They are going to need to operate at probably 30% capacity to be safe - no more knocking elbows with strangers at the table next to you at Le Cellier.    Buffets are going to need to be restructured - I've been less intimate with former boyfriends that with strangers in the buffet line at Boma.    It seems ill conceived unless they have plans to expand the physical restaurant capacity to be able to seat guests and maintain at least six feet between tables.  There seems to me to be a huge queuing theory problem in this solution.


----------



## _auroraborealis_

crisi said:


> I'm wondering about the free dining offer.....Disney is going to have a restaurant problem when they open.  Many Disney restaurants are too crowded to social distance in.  They are going to need to operate at probably 30% capacity to be safe - no more knocking elbows with strangers at the table next to you at Le Cellier.    Buffets are going to need to be restructured - I've been less intimate with former boyfriends that with strangers in the buffet line at Boma.    It seems ill conceived unless they have plans to expand the physical restaurant capacity to be able to seat guests and maintain at least six feet between tables.  There seems to me to be a huge queuing theory problem in this solution.



Yep. I suspect the FD is going to be a horror show. And everything you mention is in addition to supply chain issues. Character dining is also an issue.


----------



## VeroGuy

It is being reported on the cancellation thread that Disney is not honoring the FD offer for affected reservations.

I also just got the dreaded email stating Our reservations have been impacted  


1 night stay at POR June 1 (Cash)
5 night stay at Vero June 2-7 (DVC Rented through David’s)
4 night stay at POR June 7-11 (Cash)

I’m trying to confirm on the DVC reservation, I think I will have to call Disney now.


----------



## KAT4DISNEY

crisi said:


> I'm wondering about the free dining offer.....Disney is going to have a restaurant problem when they open.  Many Disney restaurants are too crowded to social distance in.  They are going to need to operate at probably 30% capacity to be safe - no more knocking elbows with strangers at the table next to you at Le Cellier.    Buffets are going to need to be restructured - I've been less intimate with former boyfriends that with strangers in the buffet line at Boma.    It seems ill conceived unless they have plans to expand the physical restaurant capacity to be able to seat guests and maintain at least six feet between tables.  There seems to me to be a huge queuing theory problem in this solution.



It may be why the promotion has ended earlier than some were expecting - someone at Disney finally realized what a mess they were creating.  I agree it is likely going to be a huge headache for Disney that they went back to this old standard for a promotion.  Assuming they get open as soon as they hope.


----------



## Marionnette

VeroGuy said:


> It is being reported on the cancellation thread that Disney is not honoring the FD offer for affected reservations.
> 
> I also just got the dreaded email stating Our reservations have been impacted
> 
> 
> 1 night stay at POR June 1 (Cash)
> 5 night stay at Vero June 2-7 (DVC Rented through David’s)
> 4 night stay at POR June 7-11 (Cash)
> 
> I’m trying to confirm on the DVC reservation, I think I will have to call Disney now.


The DVC reservation will most likely not be canceled until closer to your scheduled arrival date. Good luck getting thru to David’s (I believe that they are not answering their phones yet). But most likely, they will tell you that they are dealing with March/April/May cancellations and they will get around to you in due time.


----------



## SageG

Marionnette said:


> The DVC will most likely not be canceled until closer to your scheduled arrival date. Good luck getting thru to David’s (I believe that they are not answering their phones yet). But most likely, they will tell you that they are dealing with March/April/May cancellations and they will get around to you in due time.


For what it's worth, my DVC reservations that start next Thursday, 5/21 disappeared from MDE today.


----------



## VeroGuy

Marionnette said:


> The DVC reservation will most likely not be canceled until closer to your scheduled arrival date. Good luck getting thru to David’s (I believe that they are not answering their phones yet). But most likely, they will tell you that they are dealing with March/April/May cancellations and they will get around to you in due time.


Thanks for the reply.  It’s looking like it is only the one night stay on June 1st that is affected at their point even though I can’t confirm that because phone lines at Disney are being hammered right now.

I’m in for the long haul with the DVC reservation, at this point it is what it is and if it gets canceled and I’m alerted 5 days out then I’ll take it.

My hope is Vero opens and I don’t have to worry about making a decision regarding the voucher.


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> Thanks for the reply.  It’s looking like it is only the one night stay on June 1st that is affected at their point even though I can’t confirm that because phone lines at Disney are being hammered right now.
> 
> I’m in for the long haul with the DVC reservation, at this point it is what it is and if it gets canceled and I’m alerted 5 days out then I’ll take it.
> 
> My hope is Vero opens and I don’t have to worry about making a decision regarding the voucher.



There are reports on the Resorts boards of trips starting June 7th booked on cash are getting emails too


----------



## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> There are reports on the Resorts boards of trips starting June 7th booked on cash are getting emails too


Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Amymouse13

I thought they pushed to July..
https://blogmickey.com/2020/05/disn...-availability-for-disney-springs-restaurants/


----------



## Kevin_W

I thought people here might be interested in the reply I received:  

"At this point, due to the uncertainty of the Disney closures, we are not booking for July. However, if the resorts and parks are open, and there is availability, we can certainly try to secure you a room. 

At this time, our management team is working out the logistics of booking through Disney directly, so we are not sure if you would be eligible for Annual Pass discounts at this time. However, we can certainly provide you with this information once it is figured out. 

If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to reach out. "

So, nothing definite either way.


----------



## MIDisFan

Kevin_W said:


> I thought people here might be interested in the reply I received:
> 
> "At this point, due to the uncertainty of the Disney closures, we are not booking for July. However, if the resorts and parks are open, and there is availability, we can certainly try to secure you a room.
> 
> At this time, our management team is working out the logistics of booking through Disney directly, so we are not sure if you would be eligible for Annual Pass discounts at this time. However, we can certainly provide you with this information once it is figured out.
> 
> If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to reach out. "
> 
> So, nothing definite either way.



Not sure what new logistics there would be from what they would normally do through their travel department as far as booking rooms with passholder or other group specific rates. Maybe they are looking into booking rooms through the Disney Collection with DVC points


----------



## Sandisw

Kevin_W said:


> I thought people here might be interested in the reply I received:
> 
> "At this point, due to the uncertainty of the Disney closures, we are not booking for July. However, if the resorts and parks are open, and there is availability, we can certainly try to secure you a room.
> 
> At this time, our management team is working out the logistics of booking through Disney directly, so we are not sure if you would be eligible for Annual Pass discounts at this time. However, we can certainly provide you with this information once it is figured out.
> 
> If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to reach out. "
> 
> So, nothing definite either way.



Thank you for getting clarification. It is good to know that they may allow discounts, which is a very good thing!


----------



## Marionnette

Kevin_W said:


> At this time, our management team is working out the logistics of booking through Disney directly, so we are not sure if you would be eligible for Annual Pass discounts at this time. However, we can certainly provide you with this information once it is figured out.


I wonder what they meant by “the logistics of booking through Disney directly”? Aren’t they travel agents in addition to being brokers? The “logistics” should already be in place.

What I think they mean is “we don’t have 2 nickels to rub together right now and can’t afford to make payments on hotel stays. You’ll have to wait until we have suckered booked cash-paying renters before we have the funds to honor your voucher”.


----------



## TheWheel

Sandisw said:


> A renter with a voucher could have booked a moderate resort with free dining and that very well could have been as good of a deal as a points reservation.
> 
> It really does all depend on how many guests,,,even with a deluxe room for a family of 4 with free dining might make it as affordable as a DVC room with a discount.
> 
> Hopefully, a renter will get more clarification about cash bookings and post here if they indeed they can use vouchers for Disney promotions.


I was lucky enough to get a refund out of David's for my March bookings prior to the voucher nonsense. I did exactly that, rebooked my trip to moderate direct with Disney with Free Dining, saved money (even after upgrading to Disney Dining from QSD plan) but miles ahead in security should I need to cancel and rebook again.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Marionnette said:


> What I think they mean is “we don’t have 2 nickels to rub together right now and can’t afford to make payments on hotel stays. You’ll have to wait until we have suckered booked cash-paying renters before we have the funds to honor your voucher”.


----------



## starry_solo

I posted this in the shorter thread about David's and DVC reservations, but thought it would be useful here too.

Thread originally posted it in:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/clarification-on-davids-rental-situation.3801721
From:
https://www.tico.ca/consumers/frequently-asked-questions.html
*I was provided with a credit voucher by a travel agency, tour operator, an airline or cruise line prior to it ceasing operations, for use at a later date. Can I file a claim for the credit amount?*

No. As a general rule, credits are provided to consumers for a variety of reasons ranging from cancellation of travel services to dissatisfaction of travel services received or due to some other customer service issue. Credit vouchers have no cash value and are not eligible for reimbursement. The current legislation states that a customer is not entitled to be reimbursed for consequential or indirect damages incurred as a result of the failure to provide the travel services.

*Can I claim against the Compensation Fund for the non-provision of travel services due to weather, a strike, mechanical problems or force majeure?*

There is no provision under Ontario Regulation 26/05 to allow a claim against the Compensation Fund when the travel services are not provided due to weather, a strike, mechanical problems or force majeure. The Compensation Fund can only reimburse consumers who have purchased their travel services from an Ontario registered travel agency and who have not received the travel services due to the bankruptcy or insolvency of an Ontario registered travel retailer, travel wholesaler or due to the cessation of an airline or cruise line.


----------



## Disneyepcot

TheWheel said:


> I was lucky enough to get a refund out of David's for my March bookings prior to the voucher nonsense. I did exactly that, rebooked my trip to moderate direct with Disney with Free Dining, saved money (even after upgrading to Disney Dining from QSD plan) but miles ahead in security should I need to cancel and rebook again.


Your owner must have had points that they could rerent;  therefore refunding their payment to David's and he could refund you. 
I also had a March reservation and my owner had points expiring May 31 so I was not offered a refund.  I was only offered the possibility of the owner rescheduling my trip in April or May.  Hence, I opted to refuse and put in for the CC chargeback.  I was never offered the voucher and I am being patient as I wait for my dispute to hopefully be resolved in my favor.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

The way this reads Bankruptcy for David does appear a solution.
Insolvency?  I might make that claim now.



starry_solo said:


> I posted this in the shorter thread about David's and DVC reservations, but thought it would be useful here too.
> 
> Thread originally posted it in:
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/clarification-on-davids-rental-situation.3801721
> From:
> https://www.tico.ca/consumers/frequently-asked-questions.html
> *I was provided with a credit voucher by a travel agency, tour operator, an airline or cruise line prior to it ceasing operations, for use at a later date. Can I file a claim for the credit amount?*
> 
> No. As a general rule, credits are provided to consumers for a variety of reasons ranging from cancellation of travel services to dissatisfaction of travel services received or due to some other customer service issue. Credit vouchers have no cash value and are not eligible for reimbursement. The current legislation states that a customer is not entitled to be reimbursed for consequential or indirect damages incurred as a result of the failure to provide the travel services.
> 
> *Can I claim against the Compensation Fund for the non-provision of travel services due to weather, a strike, mechanical problems or force majeure?*
> 
> There is no provision under Ontario Regulation 26/05 to allow a claim against the Compensation Fund when the travel services are not provided due to weather, a strike, mechanical problems or force majeure. The Compensation Fund can only reimburse consumers who have purchased their travel services from an Ontario registered travel agency and who have not received the travel services due to the bankruptcy or insolvency of an Ontario registered travel retailer, travel wholesaler or due to the cessation of an airline or cruise line.


----------



## Dracula

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> The way this reads Bankruptcy for David does appear a solution.
> Insolvency?  I might make that claim now.


But how is insolvency established, until David officially files for bankruptcy? What will determine TICO to establish David has become insolvent? He is not making any reservations, nor is he paying owners the 30%; I have to assume he is still paying his staff, so wages are right now his main cash outflow.


----------



## Bearval

Dracula said:


> But how is insolvency established, until David officially files for bankruptcy? What will determine TICO to establish David has become insolvent? He is not making any reservations, nor is he paying owners the 30%; I have to assume he is still paying his staff, so wages are right now his main cash outflow.


And money put into hold by credit card charge backs until the outcome is determined.


----------



## lovethesun12

Dracula said:


> But how is insolvency established, until David officially files for bankruptcy? What will determine TICO to establish David has become insolvent? He is not making any reservations, nor is he paying owners the 30%; I have to assume he is still paying his staff, so wages are right now his main cash outflow.


Since his business is affected by covid-19, to the best of my knowledge he would be eligible for a 75% wage subsidy for employees which would greatly reduce the outflow for that as well.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Dracula said:


> But how is insolvency established, until David officially files for bankruptcy? What will determine TICO to establish David has become insolvent? He is not making any reservations, nor is he paying owners the 30%; I have to assume he is still paying his staff, so wages are right now his main cash outflow.


In the US people don't have to wait till someone decides to go to bankruptcy court.  David could be forced in.  I am not sure how 'insolvency' would differ from that in Canada but I am sure it does


----------



## Dracula

lovethesun12 said:


> Since his business is affected by covid-19, to the best of my knowledge he would be eligible for a 75% wage subsidy for employees which would greatly reduce the outflow for that as well.


Is this a program available in Ontario?


----------



## Dracula

Bearval said:


> And money put into hold by credit card charge backs until the outcome is determined.


You are right, I forgot about that. Was he processing credit cards directly, or via PayPal? PayPal allows users to have negative balance in case of chargeback, and would not automatically withdraw money from a linked bank account.


----------



## lovethesun12

Dracula said:


> Is this a program available in Ontario?


Yes, all Canada. I'm really not an expert on this, I just have the general knowledge it is available to businesses with a sharp decline in revenue as a result of covid-19, which I *think* would apply for him. It is available until the end of summer I think.


----------



## cvjw

Dracula said:


> You are right, I forgot about that. Was he processing credit cards directly, or via PayPal? PayPal allows users to have negative balance in case of chargeback, and would not automatically withdraw money from a linked bank account.



I just returned money to him yesterday thru PayPal using my credit card. Not sure if he also accepts credit cards directly. We decided to sell a contract that had a rented reservation on it, so I refunded the 70% and cancelled the reservation.


----------



## RNicole1

If I file a chargeback on my credit card, will David’s pull my credit offer for good? I want to try a chargeback and if it doesn’t go through, then accept the credit, but I don’t want to start the chargeback and lose any chance of the credit either.


----------



## Amymouse13

RNicole1 said:


> If I file a chargeback on my credit card, will David’s pull my credit offer for good? I want to try a chargeback and if it doesn’t go through, then accept the credit, but I don’t want to start the chargeback and lose any chance of the credit either.



The email I got said it's that they will hold voucher until outcome...


----------



## CanadaDisney05

lovethesun12 said:


> Yes, all Canada. I'm really not an expert on this, I just have the general knowledge it is available to businesses with a sharp decline in revenue as a result of covid-19, which I *think* would apply for him. It is available until the end of summer I think.


The CEWS provides businesses who have seen a 30%+ drop in wages against the same month in 2019, or the average in Jan/Feb 2020, a subsidy to help with meeting payroll obligations.  They can receive up 75% of their payroll as a subsidy up to a maximum of $847 per week per employee.  There are specific rules for arms-length employees.

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/subsidy/emergency-wage-subsidy.html


----------



## lovethesun12

CanadaDisney05 said:


> The CEWS provides businesses who have seen a 30%+ drop in wages against the same month in 2019, or the average in Jan/Feb 2020, a subsidy to help with meeting payroll obligations.  They can receive up 75% of their payroll as a subsidy up to a maximum of $847 per week per employee.  There are specific rules for arms-length employees.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/subsidy/emergency-wage-subsidy.html


Thanks for the link! Do you think the business would qualify?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

lovethesun12 said:


> Thanks for the link! Do you think the business would qualify?


Have to lol, do you mean David??


----------



## lovethesun12

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Have to lol, do you mean David??


Lol, yes, I figured the title of the thread gave that away =)


----------



## Disney1fan2002

Can someone clarify something for me? If owners are returning the 70% payment on the reservation that was cancelled, are the renters receiving the cash back, or is David's keeping the returned funds and offering just future travel vouchers to the renter?


----------



## spinchy

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Can someone clarify something for me? If owners are returning the 70% payment on the reservation that was cancelled, are the renters receiving the cash back, or is David's keeping the returned funds and offering just future travel vouchers to the renter?


He is keeping the money.  Renters only have the offer of a voucher regardless of what their particular owner does.


----------



## Disney1fan2002

spinchy said:


> He is keeping the money.  Renters only have the offer of a voucher regardless of what their particular owner does.



WOW..that is real crappy. So, the owners that are refunding the 70% are the owners that want their points back I would hope. I was going to try to scramble and come up with a way to return the money, because I thought of the renter being out all that money. Now that I know the renter is not getting the funds, I will keep my 70% and let David's re-rent the points so I can collect the remaining 30%.

ETA: the e-mail I got from David's about the cancelled reservations implied that if I could return the 70% the renter would be refunded. I'm glad I came upon these threads to discover otherwise.


----------



## lauraleh

RNicole1 said:


> If I file a chargeback on my credit card, will David’s pull my credit offer for good? I want to try a chargeback and if it doesn’t go through, then accept the credit, but I don’t want to start the chargeback and lose any chance of the credit either.


He would have to give you the credit.  The only way he could possibly win a chargeback is by claiming he is giving you a credit voucher.


----------



## McCrae

lauraleh said:


> He would have to give you the credit.  The only way he could possibly win a chargeback is by claiming he is giving you a credit voucher.



Maybe. Or the CC may accept his no refunds contract clause.


----------



## McCrae

Disney1fan2002 said:


> WOW..that is real crappy. So, the owners that are refunding the 70% are the owners that want their points back I would hope. I was going to try to scramble and come up with a way to return the money, because I thought of the renter being out all that money. Now that I know the renter is not getting the funds, I will keep my 70% and let David's re-rent the points so I can collect the remaining 30%.
> 
> ETA: the e-mail I got from David's about the cancelled reservations implied that if I could return the 70% the renter would be refunded. I'm glad I came upon these threads to discover otherwise.



Be careful about accepting the new contract that goes with re-renting.  It transfers liability to you. Smart move is to forget about the 30%, either use the points yourself or walk away.


----------



## Disney1fan2002

McCrae said:


> Be careful about accepting the new contract that goes with re-renting.  It transfers liability to you. Smart move is to forget about the 30%, either use the points yourself or walk away.



I wasn't aware that I could walk away. At first, when I told them my points expire the end of May, they told me they understood if I could not refund the 70%. Then, they found out DVC was extending the expire dates, so the email they sent me was basically telling me to let them know what use year I was in so they can point my points back in the queu. Why wouldn't they just use my points to re-book my original renters? I guess I can walk away if they won't honor the original contract I signed for the points, correct?


----------



## Disney1fan2002

Can someone help me figure out if David's is screwing everyone involved? 

1) they are not refunding renters who have had their reservations cancelled due to the pandemic, they are offering travel vouchers. Do these travel vouchers have an expiration date?
2) they are asking owners to refund the 70%, but understand if the owner can't do that, so they are asking the owner to re-rent the points out for the remaining 30%.

Some owners have refunded the 70% to David's either to get their points back, or re-rent them for the new price of $14.50/pp. I don't know.

What I have so far is David's has the renter's original money for X amount of points paid in full upfront. They have paid out 70% of it to the owner. Some of which have given back the 70%. That 70% does not go back to the renter. They then take the points from the cancelled reservation and place them back in the queue to be re-rented. He is charging the new renters full price for the points, but only paying the owner the 30% balance left on the previous reservations. 70% stays with David's.  I can only assume that some renters will have to eat the cost of their vacation that was cancelled, some vouchers will never be used. It seems to me, the people taking the full brunt of this are both the owners and the renters, while David's just sits back taking money from everyone. Am I right or do I have this all wrong?


----------



## Amymouse13

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Can someone help me figure out if David's is screwing everyone involved?
> 
> 1) they are not refunding renters who have had their reservations cancelled due to the pandemic, they are offering travel vouchers. Do these travel vouchers have an expiration date?
> 2) they are asking owners to refund the 70%, but understand if the owner can't do that, so they are asking the owner to re-rent the points out for the remaining 30%.
> 
> Some owners have refunded the 70% to David's either to get their points back, or re-rent them for the new price of $14.50/pp. I don't know.
> 
> What I have so far is David's has the renter's original money for X amount of points paid in full upfront. They have paid out 70% of it to the owner. Some of which have given back the 70%. That 70% does not go back to the renter. They then take the points from the cancelled reservation and place them back in the queue to be re-rented. He is charging the new renters full price for the points, but only paying the owner the 30% balance left on the previous reservations. 70% stays with David's.  I can only assume that some renters will have to eat the cost of their vacation that was cancelled, some vouchers will never be used. It seems to me, the people taking the full brunt of this are both the owners and the renters, while David's just sits back taking money from everyone. Am I right or do I have this all wrong?



I did a chargeback because I don't trust the voucher to be worth anything


----------



## McCrae

Disney1fan2002 said:


> I wasn't aware that I could walk away. At first, when I told them my points expire the end of May, they told me they understood if I could not refund the 70%. Then, they found out DVC was extending the expire dates, so the email they sent me was basically telling me to let them know what use year I was in so they can point my points back in the queu. Why wouldn't they just use my points to re-book my original renters? I guess I can walk away if they won't honor the original contract I signed for the points, correct?



I would have been happy to use my points to re book the original renter, David’s won’t allow it. He says the contract is with him and not the renter.  He is breaking the contract he has with you by not paying the 30% he owes you. My points are not distressed and I have decided to cut my losses and walk away.  You owe David’s nothing.  It’s very much your choice on what to do next. David’s can’t demand any refund from you and he can’t force you to re-rent your points. Any money you give back to David’s goes into his pocket and not your renters.


----------



## McCrae

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Can someone help me figure out if David's is screwing everyone involved?
> 
> 1) they are not refunding renters who have had their reservations cancelled due to the pandemic, they are offering travel vouchers. Do these travel vouchers have an expiration date?
> 2) they are asking owners to refund the 70%, but understand if the owner can't do that, so they are asking the owner to re-rent the points out for the remaining 30%.
> 
> Some owners have refunded the 70% to David's either to get their points back, or re-rent them for the new price of $14.50/pp. I don't know.
> 
> What I have so far is David's has the renter's original money for X amount of points paid in full upfront. They have paid out 70% of it to the owner. Some of which have given back the 70%. That 70% does not go back to the renter. They then take the points from the cancelled reservation and place them back in the queue to be re-rented. He is charging the new renters full price for the points, but only paying the owner the 30% balance left on the previous reservations. 70% stays with David's.  I can only assume that some renters will have to eat the cost of their vacation that was cancelled, some vouchers will never be used. It seems to me, the people taking the full brunt of this are both the owners and the renters, while David's just sits back taking money from everyone. Am I right or do I have this all wrong?



David’s is trying to screw the renter and owner.  The vouchers have a 2 year expiry date. Under the new contract you would be liable to payback renters. Currently you have no liability.

David’s will make money from you re-renting points. He gets another commission, he Keeps all of the money from the re- rental.  You get paid your original 30% from money he already has received from your renter.  David is basically getting 1 extra commission plus an extra 30%.

You get your points back no matter what. You can  rent them through another broker if you like, or use them as you see fit.

I would ignore any emails you get from David’s.


----------



## Sandisw

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Can someone help me figure out if David's is screwing everyone involved?
> 
> 1) they are not refunding renters who have had their reservations cancelled due to the pandemic, they are offering travel vouchers. Do these travel vouchers have an expiration date?
> 2) they are asking owners to refund the 70%, but understand if the owner can't do that, so they are asking the owner to re-rent the points out for the remaining 30%.
> 
> Some owners have refunded the 70% to David's either to get their points back, or re-rent them for the new price of $14.50/pp. I don't know.
> 
> What I have so far is David's has the renter's original money for X amount of points paid in full upfront. They have paid out 70% of it to the owner. Some of which have given back the 70%. That 70% does not go back to the renter. They then take the points from the cancelled reservation and place them back in the queue to be re-rented. He is charging the new renters full price for the points, but only paying the owner the 30% balance left on the previous reservations. 70% stays with David's.  I can only assume that some renters will have to eat the cost of their vacation that was cancelled, some vouchers will never be used. It seems to me, the people taking the full brunt of this are both the owners and the renters, while David's just sits back taking money from everyone. Am I right or do I have this all wrong?



Pretty much. The 70% owners have is not 70% of total paid..only what they are owed.

If vouchers go unused, he ends up with that value. Of course, there are some owners who wont refund or re-rent which leaves him about 50% short. But he is charging renters with vouchers new prices and not given owners whose points need to be rented nothing more.

IMO, he should have offered any renter whose owner refunded their money back...even keeping The part for his commission, rescheduled them if owner could or give voucher when neither could happen.


----------



## _auroraborealis_

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Then, they found out DVC was extending the expire dates, so the email they sent me was basically telling me to let them know what use year I was in so they can point my points back in the queu. Why wouldn't they just use my points to re-book my original renters? I guess I can walk away if they won't honor the original contract I signed for the points, correct?


He cannot force you to make a booking. You control the points.


----------



## spinchy

McCrae said:


> David’s is trying to screw the renter and owner.  The vouchers have a 2 year expiry date. Under the new contract you would be liable to payback renters. Currently you have no liability.
> 
> David’s will make money from you re-renting points. He gets another commission, he Keeps all of the money from the re- rental.  You get paid your original 30% from money he already has received from your renter.  David is basically getting 1 extra commission plus an extra 30%.
> 
> You get your points back no matter what. You can  rent them through another broker if you like, or use them as you see fit.
> 
> I would ignore any emails you get from David’s.


I agree with all of this except the part about David’s collecting an extra commission.  As the voucher includes the value of the original commission, if the renter uses the full voucher for another booking then the original commission is effectively ‘refunded’.   I see David’s main bonus profits coming from unused or partially used vouchers.


----------



## Bearval

lauraleh said:


> He would have to give you the credit.  The only way he could possibly win a chargeback is by claiming he is giving you a credit voucher.


The original contract stated that there was no refund if you violated your obligation as a renter. If you did not than you should get a refund since the original contract did not say voucher.  Make sure you state that in you request for a charge bacm


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Disney1fan2002 said:


> So, the owners that are refunding the 70% are the owners that want their points back I would hope.



Some owner's points are distressed or may have even expired at this point (hence, why they rented them in the first place).  I suspect this is one reason why a lot of owners have no interest in refunding the 70%.  The points they'll "get back" will still be lost and the owner will get nothing.  

Another reason is that the refunded money is not going back to their renter.  They're concerned that the money is being kept by David.  Theoretically, that money will be used to fund the renter's vacation when they redeem the voucher David's issued them.  



Disney1fan2002 said:


> ETA: the e-mail I got from David's about the cancelled reservations implied that if I could return the 70% the renter would be refunded. I'm glad I came upon these threads to discover otherwise.


The renter is getting "refunded" with a voucher.


----------



## Bearval

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Some owner's points are distressed or may have even expired at this point (hence, why they rented them in the first place).  I suspect this is one reason why a lot of owners have no interest in refunding the 70%.  The points they'll "get back" will still be lost and the owner will get nothing.
> 
> Another reason is that the refunded money is not going back to their renter.  They're concerned that the money is being kept by David.  Theoretically, that money will be used to fund the renter's vacation when they redeem the voucher David's issued them.
> 
> 
> The renter is getting "refunded" with a voucher.
> 
> View attachment 495140


A voucher is not a refund.  I have past transactions (not with Davids)  where the merchant tried to give me a voucher and my charge back was successful.   The merchant had a no refund policy (it was a water park that was closed due to an equipment breakdown on the day we were to go).


----------



## Sandisw

spinchy said:


> I agree with all of this except the part about David’s collecting an extra commission.  As the voucher includes the value of the original commission, if the renter uses the full voucher for another booking then the original commission is effectively ‘refunded’.   I see David’s main bonus profits coming from unused or partially used vouchers.



Add that owners re-renting points aren’t getting the extra $1 he is charging new renters,  That goes into his pocket, along with the extra it will cost some of the current renters to secure same room since his fees have gone up.


----------



## Disaseny

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Can someone help me figure out if David's is screwing everyone involved?
> 
> 1) they are not refunding renters who have had their reservations cancelled due to the pandemic, they are offering travel vouchers. Do these travel vouchers have an expiration date?
> 2) they are asking owners to refund the 70%, but understand if the owner can't do that, so they are asking the owner to re-rent the points out for the remaining 30%.
> 
> Some owners have refunded the 70% to David's either to get their points back, or re-rent them for the new price of $14.50/pp. I don't know.
> 
> What I have so far is David's has the renter's original money for X amount of points paid in full upfront. They have paid out 70% of it to the owner. Some of which have given back the 70%. That 70% does not go back to the renter. They then take the points from the cancelled reservation and place them back in the queue to be re-rented. He is charging the new renters full price for the points, but only paying the owner the 30% balance left on the previous reservations. 70% stays with David's.  I can only assume that some renters will have to eat the cost of their vacation that was cancelled, some vouchers will never be used. It seems to me, the people taking the full brunt of this are both the owners and the renters, while David's just sits back taking money from everyone. Am I right or do I have this all wrong?


Throw in the fact that the vouchers have a 24 month expiration  date from the time it is issued. If issued in Aprl, it's more like 20 months if he is not booking until August or later.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

So do I have this correct - if David issues you a voucher your time clock starts ticking on the voucher regardless if you accept it or not ?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Oh AND he isn’t booking on those vouchers right now that the time clock is ticking on correct ??


----------



## starry_solo

WDWEPCOT said:


> Oh AND he isn’t booking on those vouchers right now that the time clock is ticking on correct ??



@WDWEPCOT : vouchers aren't being issued until the renter agrees to the new contract.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you yeah I don’t believe I would do that !!


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> Thank you yeah I don’t believe I would do that !!


I would go for the charge back


WDWEPCOT said:


> Thank you yeah I don’t believe I would do that !!


I would go for the charge back , just make sure you send them all of the facts and that the voucher will not work for you.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I believe for a renter a chargeback is the best option 
I am just curious as an owner if your renter takes a voucher - where does that leave you in regards to the contracts ? As an owner I feel I have fulfilled my end of my contract with David and feel David has taken it upon himself to change the contracts without consulting the parties who signed the contracts and I feel he has in several cases broken the contracts 
Now if the renter signs a new contract (voucher ) how does that cancel void etc the old contract ??? Where does that leave all parties in these contracts ? Again contacts are legal binding documents they must have a beginning and an end - do we have that in the first contracts ? 
If the answer is no - then the contract should have a remedy and by law that remedy should be followed - that is the whole f point of a contract otherwise why do we have them ? 
Now if David has been caught talking out of both sides of his mouth to Owners and Renters ( posted on these boards ) why would you trust him to sign another contract with him? I’m just curious - as I am not seeing him behave at least with me in any form as a respectable business and I am both currently a renter and a owner with him.


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> I believe for a renter a chargeback is the best option
> I am just curious as an owner if your renter takes a voucher - where does that leave you in regards to the contracts ? As an owner I feel I have fulfilled my end of my contract with David and feel David has taken it upon himself to change the contracts without consulting the parties who signed the contracts and I feel he has in several cases broken the contracts
> Now if the renter signs a new contract (voucher ) how does that cancel void etc the old contract ??? Where does that leave all parties in these contracts ? Again contacts are legal binding documents they must have a beginning and an end - do we have that in the first contracts ?
> If the answer is no - then the contract should have a remedy and by law that remedy should be followed - that is the whole f point of a contract otherwise why do we have them ?
> Now if David has been caught talking out of both sides of his mouth to Owners and Renters ( posted on these boards ) why would you trust him to sign another contract with him? I’m just curious - as I am not seeing him behave at least with me in any form as a respectable business and I am both currently a renter and a owner with him.



I know if there is an issue for my renter in August, I will offer the following...reschedule the original renter, under terms of old contract.::not responsible for Future closure or forfeit my 30% to be released from the contract,

Not willing to agree to anything else,


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> I believe for a renter a chargeback is the best option
> I am just curious as an owner if your renter takes a voucher - where does that leave you in regards to the contracts ? As an owner I feel I have fulfilled my end of my contract with David and feel David has taken it upon himself to change the contracts without consulting the parties who signed the contracts and I feel he has in several cases broken the contracts
> Now if the renter signs a new contract (voucher ) how does that cancel void etc the old contract ??? Where does that leave all parties in these contracts ? Again contacts are legal binding documents they must have a beginning and an end - do we have that in the first contracts ?
> If the answer is no - then the contract should have a remedy and by law that remedy should be followed - that is the whole f point of a contract otherwise why do we have them ?
> Now if David has been caught talking out of both sides of his mouth to Owners and Renters ( posted on these boards ) why would you trust him to sign another contract with him? I’m just curious - as I am not seeing him behave at least with me in any form as a respectable business and I am both currently a renter and a owner with him.


My understanding is that by accepting the voucher you surrender you ability to seek a chargeback.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I did offer to reschedule my renter thru David - everyone was onboard until they were not - then unbeknownst to me renter accepted voucher - I still have not heard from David  - as Owner in this situation where does this leave me? I did not cancel the reservation - when I contacted the renter to confirm new dates to book was informed of voucher renter wished me well - nothing from David since March when I contacted them - I received my points back from DVC - so now what?  I am sure I’m not the only person in this situation 
I know we have discussed this for pages and pages


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> I did offer to reschedule my renter thru David - everyone was onboard until they were not - then unbeknownst to me renter accepted voucher - I still have not heard from David  - as Owner in this situation where does this leave me? I did not cancel the reservation - when I contacted the renter to confirm new dates to book was informed of voucher renter wished me well - nothing from David since March when I contacted them - I received my points back from DVC - so now what?  I am sure I’m not the only person in this situation
> I know we have discussed this for pages and pages


Let your conscience be your guide. If you are made whole by receiving your points back and you can use them then you should consider giving back the funds that you have received.  If the points you have received back are basically useless to you due to your UY. I would just leave things the way they are since you booked a room for the agent and this did not allow you to use your points possibly before all of the cancelations. What i would never do is sign the new convoluted contracts.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void ab initio ("from the beginning"); only future obligations are discharged. At common law, obligations which fell due for performance before the frustrating event are still in operation 

Correct me if I’m wrong - didn’t David say the contracts were frustrated ??


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> I did offer to reschedule my renter thru David - everyone was onboard until they were not - then unbeknownst to me renter accepted voucher - I still have not heard from David  - as Owner in this situation where does this leave me? I did not cancel the reservation - when I contacted the renter to confirm new dates to book was informed of voucher renter wished me well - nothing from David since March when I contacted them - I received my points back from DVC - so now what?  I am sure I’m not the only person in this situation
> I know we have discussed this for pages and pages



Personally...and this is only my opinion...you offered your renter options...they certainly were not worried about you and your points...and neither is Davids.  At this point, I would simply use your points as you wish and if contacted by Davids, tell him you will forfeit the 30% owed as you consider the matter settled...unless you want to re-rent the points.

My big problem with re-renting with a new contract is that it makes the owners responsible for any type of issue...resort closure, damage, etc...and to me, that is no longer something I will move forward with.

As I have stated many times, Davids has said the contract is frustrated and that owners should be giving money back or re-renting points because the closure by Disney makes them liable but then tells renter that Disney canceling is not fault of owner which is what entitles them to refund.

Not doing anything at this point myself that isn't what I feel is comfortable dealing with his company.  I am sure some will disagree.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you - I posted the legal definition of frustrated contracts - I believe this answers my questions 
Yes - wild horses couldn’t make me sign that new contract let alone EVER do any business with that shady man again absolutely no reason except his greed for his action 
You can make or break yourself in times like this I believe David’s is showing his choice my opinion others are free to form their own and I wish everyone peace and well !! I really hope everyone is made as whole as possible but I’m afraid it will not happen and it just sucks!!


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void ab initio ("from the beginning"); only future obligations are discharged. At common law, obligations which fell due for performance before the frustrating event are still in operation
> 
> Correct me if I’m wrong - didn’t David say the contracts were frustrated ??


It would be a court of law that would declare the contract is frustrated since everyone's interpretation of what is a frustrated contract would differ.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I am not declaring them frustrated I am just posting the legal definition of a frustrated contract


----------



## Yinn

WDWEPCOT said:


> I did offer to reschedule my renter thru David - everyone was onboard until they were not - then unbeknownst to me renter accepted voucher - I still have not heard from David  - as Owner in this situation where does this leave me? I did not cancel the reservation - when I contacted the renter to confirm new dates to book was informed of voucher renter wished me well - nothing from David since March when I contacted them - I received my points back from DVC - so now what?  I am sure I’m not the only person in this situation
> I know we have discussed this for pages and pages



I went through a similar situation, they'll reach back out.  You'll get an email telling you that your points are extended, and that to reach an "amicable" situation for everyone, you'll be encouraged to rent your points.  If you do re-rent your points, you'll be paid your 30%. Which implies you won't get the 30% if you don't re-rent your points.  

The way the email reads, it's encouraging and doesn't make it seem like it's a requirement for you to re-rent your points.  But I don't like that it leverages the remaining 30% as hostage.  It also doesn't address any money that was returned.  So does that mean only 30% is going to be paid out?


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> I am not declaring them frustrated I am just posting the legal definition of a frustrated contract


Sorry,  I was referring to where David was stating the contracts were frustrated.  It would be interesting to see what a court would decide since he wrote the contracts and this is the important part, dealing with a product that had a expiration date. Just unwinding the transactions wouldn't make all of the owners whole and since these owners locked up their ability to use them for him and could have used them before the shutdowns.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I strongly urge google search covid 19 frustrated contracts English law 
Very interesting read - any way you want to slice this David has messed this up and in my opinion is at fault 
I’m just not seeing how he has not breached these contracts 
They may not be frustrated (not far from it) but none of his actions seem to be him truly  trying to uphold his end of the contracts in any meaningful fashion - again my experience and opinion


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

WDWEPCOT said:


> The legal consequence of a contract which is found to have been frustrated is that the contract is automatically terminated at the point of frustration. The contract is not void ab initio ("from the beginning"); only future obligations are discharged. At common law, obligations which fell due for performance before the frustrating event are still in operation
> 
> Correct me if I’m wrong - didn’t David say the contracts were frustrated ??


David has sent emails with the frustration/impossible scenario.  That is not the end of the question if you are in 'legalease'.  The remedies for those are equitable.  In court you don't get to double dip.  If you have your points and are whole then the money goes back, of course going back here seems to be David and no further.  Reality and legal are not matching well here.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Bearval said:


> It would be a court of law that would declare the contract is frustrated since everyone's interpretation of what is a frustrated contract would differ.


I believe it would not be a court of law it would be a court of equity although some states have combine the powers of both in their lowest court level.  A breach of contract is a court of law.  A court of law standing alone from a court of equity can not grant equitable remedies.  In your posts there is no breach of contract and if there is a breach of contract you sue on that.  Equity is for non breaches of contract like frustration or impossible.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

lol, when the other part to a contract puts 'frustration/impossible' in writing, sends it to you and asks you to act accordingly it is pretty hard for them to get out of it.



WDWEPCOT said:


> I am not declaring them frustrated I am just posting the legal definition of a frustrated contract


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I am under no delusion that I will ever see the 30% owed me for the 3 rentals I have with him / I am not happy about that but I won’t screw someone out of their vacation - I just hope I don’t have a situation where the resort is open and my renter does not go - then my points are toast.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I believe it would not be a court of law it would be a court of equity although some states have combine the powers of both in their lowest court level.  A breach of contract is a court law.  there is no breach in frustration or impossible.



I think the point is that if a owner doesn’t believe that the resort closure voids the contract, then Davids would have to use the legal system to recover he decides to go that route,


----------



## WDWEPCOT

The definition of frustrated you are paid for your services up to point of frustration upon point of frustration nothing more is required not returned


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m just not convinced they are frustrated in all contracts because the act has to be impossible - not all points are impossible to rent but some are - so some contracts are frustrated and some not - but the longer this goes the more that will change as we are hitting a moving target - then DVC moved it some more - then DVC said can’t borrow more than 50% points - all will come into play which may in turn make all contracts frustrated


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

WDWEPCOT said:


> I’m just not convinced they are frustrated in all contracts because the act has to be impossible - not all points are impossible to rent but some are - so some contracts are frustrated and some not - but the longer this goes the more that will change as we are hitting a moving target - then DVC moved it some more - then DVC said can’t borrow more than 50% points - all will come into play which may in turn make all contracts frustrated


Frustration of purpose and impossibility are different remedies.  They do not depend on each other.  Points being possible to be rented or wasted would become important AFTER a court ruled on frustration of purpose or impossibility.  The future use of 'points' would not be relevant to the question of whether the contract was impossible.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m order to rule on frustration it would have to be proved that the contract is impossible to be performed - not difficult - impossible -  having points that are expired would accomplish that goal 
The sole act of court / judge declaring a contract frustrated does not imply nor seek remedy it stops / ends the contract at the point of frustration 
Because these contracts are so poorly written and covid they have met a few requirements for frustration but the main requirement is - impossible - is it impossible to fulfill obtaining a room? Some  owners can honestly say yes some right now no  - but as David drags this on more owners will be able to say yes as points become unable to be used or borrowed back to fulfill original contract amount hence meeting impossible making them frustrated 
This DOES not give David the right to do anything that he is doing as a judge needs to rule on frustration 
Maybe David should try working from the kindness of his heart for the best interest of someone besides himself - it would have done his business a lot more value and goodwill than what he is currently getting 
Again just my opinion - others may very


----------



## lawboy2001

Bearval said:


> It would be a court of law that would declare the contract is frustrated since everyone's interpretation of what is a frustrated contract would differ.



You have that right!!  

I have commented previously that I think performance of these rental contracts has been frustrated by the closure of the DVC resorts.   

I also indicated that in this case of frustration, money exchanged should be returned.  Someone commented that frustration absolves the parties of any further performance of their obligations, and so nothing further need be done, but what has already been done (i.e. money exchange) is not required to be undone.  I'm skeptical.  I think that legal theory of frustration is applicable to longer term contractual relationships in which a series of obligations and payments, over months or years, are to be performed under the contract.  

In the case of these rental contracts, there was only one single obligation (on the owner):  to make available accommodation that the renter made payment to David's for, and which payment David already partially transferred to the owner.   So I think this is analogous to making a contract to buy a painting, in which the buyer pays a deposit, following which the painting is destroyed.  The contact cannot be performed.  I don't think the law provides that the seller can keep the deposit.  I'm sure this was a first year law example but maybe I am out to lunch on this!?    

But...on further reflection, the analogy is far from perfect: the  DVC resorts are still there, unlike the painting my example, so bookings can be made.  It may just be much more difficult to get a booking, and it may need flexibility on both owners and renters side.  Frustration isn't generally found if a circumstance makes performance of a contract more difficult or somewhat different from what the parties the contract contemplated.  Food for thought!

It's all really just an academic question -- no one is going to court over this, and consequently no one will be forced to pay up if they don't want to or are unable to.

The advice to let your conscience be your guide sounds as good as any to me....


----------



## lawboy2001

WDWEPCOT said:


> I’m just not convinced they are frustrated in all contracts because the act has to be impossible - not all points are impossible to rent but some are - so some contracts are frustrated and some not - but the longer this goes the more that will change as we are hitting a moving target - then DVC moved it some more - then DVC said can’t borrow more than 50% points - all will come into play which may in turn make all contracts frustrated



Good point!  I share your view, and posted on it -- before reading your post


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

You are using impossible in 2 senses.  There is a word used to describe something that can not be done.  That is not legal impossibility.  Neither can be used in a court of law to fix David issues.

Again, you are equating frustration of purpose as requiring legal impossibility.  Legal impossibility is a distinct legal theory existing apart from frustration of purpose.  They are different.  They do not depend on each althought they are clearly often misunderstood and confused.  
The contract is not breached but it is impossible.  Alternatively the contract is not breached but has a frustrated purpose.  After a decision is made on either impossible OR on frustration the 'reality' of the DVC points becomes relevant, but only to do equity for all parties.  To be fair to everyone.

At the time prior to a ruling that the contract became impossible or frustrated the status of the points is not material.

If there is a breach of contract then it is not a case of frustration or impossibility.  Period.  Full stop.  There are only contract remedies.

If the contract is impossible or frustrated it is NOT breach and breach of contract remedies do not matter.  *So at this point the language of the contract literally does not matter anymore.  It doesn't matter if it is clear or not clear.  If David wrote it or you wrote it.*

A judge ruling a contract purpose is frustrated OR impossible is limited to equitable, not contract remedies.

I am completely lost how you say some owners can provide a room for last week.  Before a Judge rules the contract has a date for performance, eg check in.  The contract controls but after a ruling then the contract language does not matter.  The judge is not 'fixing' the contract he or she is making things fair.  Fair does not include ordering a renter to take a vacation at any time other than what the renter had chosen.

David is asserting his economic power and 'knowledge' over renters who seem less informed on their rights to advantage this nightmare in his favor.  This has been successful, imo with owners who have a better grasp of the situation and generally more experience.



WDWEPCOT said:


> I’m order to rule on frustration it would have to be proved that the contract is impossible to be performed - not difficult - impossible -  having points that are expired would accomplish that goal
> The sole act of court / judge declaring a contract frustrated does not imply nor seek remedy it stops / ends the contract at the point of frustration
> Because these contracts are so poorly written and covid they have met a few requirements for frustration but the main requirement is - impossible - is it impossible to fulfill obtaining a room? Some  owners can honestly say yes some right now no  - but as David drags this on more owners will be able to say yes as points become unable to be used or borrowed back to fulfill original contract amount hence meeting impossible making them frustrated
> This DOES not give David the right to do anything that he is doing as a judge needs to rule on frustration
> Maybe David should try working from the kindness of his heart for the best interest of someone besides himself - it would have done his business a lot more value and goodwill than what he is currently getting
> Again just my opinion - others may very


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Things to ponder away on a Sunday with no sports and it’s raining !!


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> Things to ponder away on a Sunday with no sports and it’s raining !!



Well, NASCAR is on so made my day!,,  38 laps to go!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Look up what is required for a contract to be ruled frustrated - it has to be impossible to be carried out as written 
The Judge will not offer remedy on frustration that would be another matter you would have to take to court 
I am not confusing the two 
Thank you for you long explanation


----------



## Disney1fan2002

Sandisw said:


> I know if there is an issue for my renter in August, I will offer the following...reschedule the original renter, under terms of old contract.::not responsible for Future closure or forfeit my 30% to be released from the contract,
> 
> Not willing to agree to anything else,



I agree with this, and also, I am going to stipulate I get my 30% at the time I make the confirmed reservation. Even if WDW opens in July, there is a very good chance it may have to close again in the fall/winter months because all the science is pointing to a resurgence once the cold weather comes back around. I am not signing the new contract. If they want to screw over the renters by not giving them their cash back, then I won't feel bad if I have to walk away with my points. If they would allow us to just rebook our original renters, there would be no problems. Since they are not letting that happen, for some unknown reason, they can go pound sand.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Horse racing for me!! Just finished watching !!


----------



## Disaseny

WDWEPCOT said:


> Horse racing for me!! Just finished watching !!


Disney vlogs from just before everything closed.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I would welcome you but it was effort to put together.  I would far rather have had you read it.  In my final response and opinion on your posts I have 2 things.  First, All issues would be resolved in one lawsuit.  You would NOT go back to court.  That is just wrong.  Below are a couple of links.  My understanding is that if the link posts it is permitted and otherwise can not be followed.

Second, these are not mine or anyone I know.  Since you mention research read what attorney's licensed and practicing in FL say.   The primary purpose of the contract was a stay at DVC on exact dates and all parties knew it and participated in obtaining those dates.  C19 was nobody's fault.  Nobody contemplated DVC being closed owners responsibility or not.

https://millerjohnson.com/publicati...y-frustration-of-purpose-or-impracticability/
*3 different things*_.  "... impossibility, frustration of purpose, and impracticability may excuse performance of a contract ... If a contract does not specifically address impossibility, frustration of purpose, and impracticability, then we look to the common law and statutes, including the UCC.

Frustration of purpose is limited to situations in which *a party’s primary purpose for entering the transaction is frustrated, through no fault of the party,* by an event the nonoccurrence of which was a basic assumption on which the contract was made.  And the excuse only applies if both parties understood that purpose to be a principle purpose of the contract."_

https://www.akerman.com/en/perspect...s-and-implications-of-various-state-laws.html
*Frustration of Purpose:*
_
Frustration of purpose occurs when “one of the parties finds that the purpose for which it bargained, and which purposes were known to the other party, have been frustrated because of the failure of consideration, or impossibility of performance by the other party.” ...  ”[33] T*he court highlighted that, in order for a the purpose of a contract to be frustrated, it must be due to circumstances beyond the parties’ control.*[36]_






WDWEPCOT said:


> Look up what is required for a contract to be ruled frustrated - it has to be impossible to be carried out as written
> The Judge will not offer remedy on frustration that would be another matter you would have to take to court
> I am not confusing the two
> Thank you for you long explanation


----------



## Amymouse13

Seems an owner who received 70% and reservation was cancelled could offer to rerent those points as to fulfill the contract which was to rent points... I'd hard pass that money refund as it's not any part of contract.  If you offer to rerent points and David's doesn't respond well that's on him.  All this crud he's doing outside the contract is pretty creative but well but in signed contract.  Just like my chargeback counter argument... This new contract isn't the one I agreed to.  

Also seems doesn't matter if an owner cancels and banks if he can't prove you cancelled and not Disney right?  Think this was a few pages ago and him being like don't cancel despite chances could prevent banking.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I did read your post thank you for assuming I didn’t 
As to Florida law - read your contract with David if you have one - not done in Florida -  you would have to go to Canada 
Peace out


----------



## Best_Vacation_EVER!

We've rented privately in the past (and the owners were awesome by the way  -- never had to change anything but we understood.... we got a cheaper rate by assuming some risk and losing some change flexibility  plus  the owners got $ for points they weren't going to use.)    Everyone was happy  --- really a win-win for everyone.   

This year in Dec we were looking for BLT/TPV at 11 months (+ 2 weeks out) and didn't see anyone listing points on various boards so we contacted Davids --- luckily it didn't work out --- so we booked directly for RO with Disney (with the discount it wasn't a huge amount of difference and I had a Bounceback I booked just in case -- although it gave us only a day or two of discount.)

I think this has totally made it clear to us  --- that whatever we'd save with renting through a broker isn't worth it.  Any insurance but "cancel for any reason" wouldn't have applied -- and when we looked into that it would have raised the price enough that going through Disney with discounts was close enough that we went that route.   Maybe we'd rent directly with an owner again but never through a broker.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Reading pages and pages of all the legal complexities of this situation is starting to drive me insane!



RIP Jerry Stiller!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m sure going to miss him he was funny !! I’ve said that very statement several times regarding this mess - you hit that one on the nail !!


----------



## lovethesun12

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Reading pages and pages of all the legal complexities of this situation are starting to drive me insane!
> 
> View attachment 495332


Honestly partly for curiosity and partly because I wanted to know where I stood when I talked to the rental company about this, I consulted a lawyer for advice on how to go forward.

The information I received was different from every single piece of advice offered on this thread. Not one single person, I repeat, not one post offered the advice I received.


----------



## McCrae

lovethesun12 said:


> Honestly partly for curiosity and partly because I wanted to know where I stood when I talked to the rental company about this, I consulted a lawyer for advice on how to go forward.
> 
> The information I received was different from every single piece of advice offered on this thread. Not one single person, I repeat, not one post offered the advice I received.



what was your advice?


----------



## McCrae

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Reading pages and pages of all the legal complexities of this situation are starting to drive me insane!
> 
> View attachment 495332



7 different lawyers will give you 7 different opinions.


----------



## Shelly F - Ohio

One thing to keep in mind is this company is located in Canada so there might be a bit of a twist should you seek to pursue a lawsuit with David's. You will need find a lawyer who can handle international cases.


----------



## Yinn

McCrae said:


> what was your advice?



We know what it’s not. 
- Claim chargeback
- Small claims
- Contact the owner
- Contact Davids
- Take the voucher
- Don’t take the voucher

My guess - Do nothing, wait it out. Or was that suggested and I missed it?


----------



## Maddiesmum03

Disney1fan2002 said:


> I agree with this, and also, I am going to stipulate I get my 30% at the time I make the confirmed reservation. Even if WDW opens in July, there is a very good chance it may have to close again in the fall/winter months because all the science is pointing to a resurgence once the cold weather comes back around. I am not signing the new contract. If they want to screw over the renters by not giving them their cash back, then I won't feel bad if I have to walk away with my points. If they would allow us to just rebook our original renters, there would be no problems. Since they are not letting that happen, for some unknown reason, they can go pound sand.


I got my 30% on re renting the points, not on the new check in date. I did not care for the wording of the new contract that was sent after payment, because it had that same bit about the owner having to pay the $$$$ renters paid for the reservation if accommodation is not available, or even more if David's chooses alternative accommodation for more money!!!! 
I emailed back stating that the reservation had been made with goodwill, the money I received was for my original contract which is now complete, I do not accept the contract sent represents the circumstances of the re rental of points and that I would categorically not refund any money for this reservation if Disney decides to shut the resort, but I would again try to re rent for another date (they are Aug 2020 points so will still be good for a while yet!) . I had a reply confirming payment was for the original rental and this was just their standard contract. I'm not 100% happy, but will just have to see how things pan out for next March and at least I have the email trail.


----------



## Bearval

McCrae said:


> 7 different lawyers will give you 7 different opinions.


You got it! My lawyer told me I am right and their lawyer is telling them they are right.


----------



## Bearval

Yinn said:


> We know what it’s not.
> - Claim chargeback
> - Small claims
> - Contact the owner
> - Contact Davids
> - Take the voucher
> - Don’t take the voucher
> 
> My guess - Do nothing, wait it out. Or was that suggested and I missed it?
> [/QUOTE
> What we do know is that the original contracts were poorly written and that ambiguity goes against the writer/provider of the contract.  He wouldn't have rewriten the contracts if they had him covered.  One issue is that he advertised to the owners and renters a garrentee it they held up their end they had nothing to worry about.


----------



## lovethesun12

McCrae said:


> what was your advice?


That's fair to ask however even though there are a lot of similarities, my situation is different than many on this thread mostly because I'm with a different rental company, in a different location with a different contract. My rental has not been cancelled yet, and I also would be satisfied with a voucher (prefer not to have the extra conditions though) so asked about what my options were if I was not offered one or offered one with different terms. I just had a million *if this happens, what should I do...* so the answers did specifically apply to me really.

My point was that just because someone offered advice on this thread (myself included) it doesn't mean it's the best advice.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Amymouse13 said:


> Seems an owner who received 70% and reservation was cancelled could offer to rerent those points as to fulfill the contract which was to rent points... I'd hard pass that money refund as it's not any part of contract.  If you offer to rerent points and David's doesn't respond well that's on him.  All this crud he's doing outside the contract is pretty creative but well but in signed contract.  Just like my chargeback counter argument... This new contract isn't the one I agreed to.
> 
> Also seems doesn't matter if an owner cancels and banks if he can't prove you cancelled and not Disney right?  Think this was a few pages ago and him being like don't cancel despite chances could prevent banking.


This is exactly my situation only I reached contacted David a couple of weeks prior to the banking deadline.  My opinion to David was that under the circumstances his telling me not to cancel made David responsible for all the points.  This led to communication with the Buyer and David asking me to cancel the reservation.

I do not believe there is a way to stop the renter from knowing you cancelled the reservation.  I maybe wrong but if you (an owner) cancel on your own you are creating what seems a night mare situation for yourself.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

lovethesun12 said:


> Honestly partly for curiosity and partly because I wanted to know where I stood when I talked to the rental company about this, I consulted a lawyer for advice on how to go forward.
> 
> The information I received was different from every single piece of advice offered on this thread. Not one single person, I repeat, not one post offered the advice I received.


That does not make it good.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Update - I WON my dispute - credit card - chase 
Rental - Aulani - check in May 2 - filed dispute March 25 - when hotel was closed - had already contacted David several times - I did not submitted any paperwork to Chase. I went over everything with Chase on phone and offered to send documents - informed them per David they are too busy with Florida to handle Hawaii but they were not too busy to take my money ! 
I also informed them I had points rented out with them and how that was being handled - I really believe all this played into it
Bottom line as I have posted - per Chase - not allowed to take money and not provide room - not forced to take voucher - grounds for chargeback


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> Update - I WON my dispute - credit card - chase


----------



## banzai75

Now to get word out to everyone!  Post it on Facebook! See how fast it gets deleted !


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I also won my dispute against American Airlines with the cancelled flight voucher - I so love Disney Chase!!! 
one more dispute pending from my cancelled Hawaii cruise
The only decent business has been DCL!! They were awesome !!


----------



## _auroraborealis_

Grumpy by Birth said:


> View attachment 495394



This whole thing is like Spring Festivus.

Many grievances.
We can call the dispute a feat of strength.
And a Festivus miracle.

All we need is a pole, right?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I don’t do Facebook but if I did I would post it in all caps !!!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

_auroraborealis_ said:


> This whole thing is like Spring Festivus.
> 
> Many grievances.







_auroraborealis_ said:


> All we need is a pole, right?




RIP Jerry Stiller!


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> Update - I WON my dispute - credit card - chase
> Rental - Aulani - check in May 2 - filed dispute March 25 - when hotel was closed - had already contacted David several times - I did not submitted any paperwork to Chase. I went over everything with Chase on phone and offered to send documents - informed them per David they are too busy with Florida to handle Hawaii but they were not too busy to take my money !
> I also informed them I had points rented out with them and how that was being handled - I really believe all this played into it
> Bottom line as I have posted - per Chase - not allowed to take money and not provide room - not forced to take voucher - grounds for chargeback



Now it will be interesting to see if his message to owners changes at all.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Well I still have not heard from him and I had offered to reschedule my renter before their vacation was cancelled - then crickets - they ended up taking a voucher - and no one had contacted me - but he is booking new clients and some vouchers - none of thus makes any sense - hot mess


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> Well I still have not heard from him and I had offered to reschedule my renter before their vacation was cancelled - then crickets - they ended up taking a voucher - and no one had contacted me - but he is booking new clients and some vouchers - none of thus makes any sense - hot mess


Problem is that if people accept the vouchers by signing the new and IMPROVED  contract they have surrendered their ability to do a chargeback.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> Well I still have not heard from him and I had offered to reschedule my renter before their vacation was cancelled - then crickets - they ended up taking a voucher - and no one had contacted me - but he is booking new clients and some vouchers - none of thus makes any sense - *hot mess*


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

banzai75 said:


> I added the contract as additional information. Highlighted the lack of a force majeure clause.  Also there was something in there about if no acclamations available a refund is due. I put that in there too.


Hello! Thanks so much for this. The credit card just asked me for additional info. Can you explain how the absence of the force majeure clause and the acclamation will help in my request for a refund? I googled but am not a lawyer!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I do love your Post! You make me laugh!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> I do love your Post! You make me laugh!


We all need a little laughter about now!


----------



## banzai75

AnnieMouseMom said:


> Hello! Thanks so much for this. The credit card just asked me for additional info. Can you explain how the absence of the force majeure clause and the acclamation will help in my request for a refund? I googled but am not a lawyer!



I’m not a lawyer either but I basically said his original contract doesn’t have a force majeue clause. Since it doesn’t have it then it doesn’t cover events such as the pandemic which would free him from the contract.

if you see the future voucher contract he has added it in. So I also referenced that he is forcing you to accept a new contract which limits his liability.


----------



## Bearval

AnnieMouseMom said:


> Hello! Thanks so much for this. The credit card just asked me for additional info. Can you explain how the absence of the force majeure clause and the acclamation will help in my request for a refund? I googled but am not a lawyer!


I think spell check took over and they meant accomendations not acclamation.  They had stated in their contract there was language if there were no accommodations available they were due a refund.  If David's did not stipulate in their documents that a voucher would be given in place of a refund then they have to get a refund.  They are hoping you accept the voucber


----------



## Sandisw

AnnieMouseMom said:


> Hello! Thanks so much for this. The credit card just asked me for additional info. Can you explain how the absence of the force majeure clause and the acclamation will help in my request for a refund? I googled but am not a lawyer!



Here is what I might add to the information. It’s part of the contract with my renter, but you should have it in yours


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> Here is what I might add to the information. It’s part of the contract with my renter, but you should have it in yours
> 
> View attachment 495415


That pretty much sinks his battleship


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Bearval said:


> That pretty much sinks his battleship


I'll avoid the temptation to add a meme here and just say... it might not if the card company considers refunding via a voucher an acceptable form of refund.  Ordinarily, it might not be ok to issue a voucher instead of a cash refund unless it was spelled out as an option in the contract.  But with COVID, all bets seem to be off with regards to this.


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I'll avoid the temptation to add a meme here and just say... it might not if the card company considers refunding via a voucher an acceptable form of refund.  Ordinarily, it might not be ok to issue a voucher instead of a cash refund unless it was spelled out as an option in the contract.  But with COVID, all bets seem to be off with regards to this.



I am thinking that a CC would still see this as something that entitles the renter since no mention of a voucher implies it will be actual money back..or at the very least, that is what the renter assumed it would be.

Based on now 2 wins with chargebacks, I’d be surprised if most, if not all renters, will prevail.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Per Chase - because of COVID and people not able or wanting to travel you are not forced to take a voucher - hence why I won the chargeback with American Airlines - I could not use the voucher before it expired and Chase said it was unacceptable - I wasn't even calling on a dispute for the airlines - it came up in conversation and Chase told me to file a dispute.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

I'm not surprised CCs are siding with the customers.  But I just recall some earlier reports that many were allowing airlines, etc. to issue vouchers as adequate compensation.


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I'm not surprised CCs are siding with the customers.  But I just recall some earlier reports that many were allowing airlines, etc. to issue vouchers as adequate compensation.



Yes, I think maybe in Canada? But, many airlines here are still processing refunds,

Delta just completely changed my flights from one layover to two and arrival time went from noon to 8 pm.  Called and no issues being refunded.


----------



## Bearval

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I'll avoid the temptation to add a meme here and just say... it might not if the card company considers refunding via a voucher an acceptable form of refund.  Ordinarily, it might not be ok to issue a voucher instead of a cash refund unless it was spelled out as an option in the contract.  But with COVID, all bets seem to be off with regards to this.


Language early states refund will be in U.S. dollars.   The " Return/Refund " policy has to specify state what a refund is to be if it is not a return of cash.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Delta did that to me - changed from one layover to 4 - which made the flight impossible to make as the layovers overlapped the flight times with the connections - then argued with me about the flight making it with the connections - eventually got them to admit the flight would not work - so they refunded my ticket and not DH ticket even thou we were on the same number - what the heck! After another 6 hour hold - they had to reinstate DH ticket because they could see it but not credit it (?) then they refunded the new ticket. 
I would never had known about this at all if they had not sent an email telling me how much they were looking forward to me flying with them as I thought the flight was cancelled back in March when I called them.


----------



## Yinn

Sandisw said:


> Now it will be interesting to see if his message to owners changes at all.



You mean that now he has to manage both vouchers and cash refunds?  A chargeback is probably a nail in the coffin.  

I don't know how he's going to be able to bleed cash without going after owners for it.  Then the owners he's going after, they're not going to want to give points up for him to fulfill vouchers.  This is going to spiral fast.


----------



## Bearval

Yinn said:


> You mean that now he has to manage both vouchers and cash refunds?  A chargeback is probably a nail in the coffin.
> 
> I don't know how he's going to be able to bleed cash without going after owners for it.  Then the owners he's going after, they're not going to want to give points up for him to fulfill vouchers.  This is going to spiral fast.


It is not as bad as you would think for him.  I put that in post 3232.


----------



## Sandisw

Yinn said:


> You mean that now he has to manage both vouchers and cash refunds?  A chargeback is probably a nail in the coffin.
> 
> I don't know how he's going to be able to bleed cash without going after owners for it.  Then the owners he's going after, they're not going to want to give points up for him to fulfill vouchers.  This is going to spiral fast.



Just wondering if Anything changes in dealing with specific owners whose renters win.

Like I said, I am dreading having a rental upcoming, just because I am doubtful of how things are going to progress, even if opened.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I have one rental with Disney closed - One rental in June which I am thinking Disney will be closed and one in Sept which who knows?? As I have stated before - I am not holding my breath thinking that David's will pay me the 30% if the resort is open as he is playing by rules he sets by the minute.


----------



## BDJazz

Hello all,

Im writing for some clarification.  As an owner who rented points to a family, whose vacation was cancelled in May, my preference would have been to work directly with the owners to work something out.  Am I correct in reading that if my points are now re-rented, they are subject to a new contract putting liability on me to refund money?  I certainly don't want to screw over the renters, but I will not agree to terms of a new contract that puts liability on me. Trying to let my conscience be my guide, but it seems to me that requesting me to refund money to him, but not offering cash refunds to his renters puts me in a situation to look like the "bad guy".  Any stipulation out there that says I can't contact the renters directly and work something out? My fear would be that he starts renting out the contracts that expire soonest, and my points maybe being rented last minute, or maybe not at all??  Then would he try and come after my $$ at that time?


----------



## Disneyepcot

Disneyepcot said:


> Your owner must have had points that they could rerent;  therefore refunding their payment to David's and he could refund you.
> I also had a March reservation and my owner had points expiring May 31 so I was not offered a refund.  I was only offered the possibility of the owner rescheduling my trip in April or May.  Hence, I opted to refuse and put in for the CC chargeback.  I was never offered the voucher and I am being patient as I wait for my dispute to hopefully be resolved in my favor.


UPDATE:   I just called Chase to check on my dispute and they said it has been resolved in my favor with my funds now permanently in my account and the confirmation letter is in the mail.

ETA:  I submitted my claim March 19 over the phone, before it got extremely busy, and was never asked to send any other information.


----------



## banzai75

Disneyepcot said:


> UPDATE:   I just called Chase to check on my dispute and they said it has been resolved in my favor with my funds now permanently in my account and the confirmation letter is in the mail.



when did you submit claim?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Disneyepcot said:


> UPDATE:   I just called Chase to check on my dispute and they said it has been resolved in my favor with my funds now permanently in my account and the confirmation letter is in the mail.


----------



## CraigInPA

BDJazz said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Im writing for some clarification.  As an owner who rented points to a family, whose vacation was cancelled in May, my preference would have been to work directly with the owners to work something out.  Am I correct in reading that if my points are now re-rented, they are subject to a new contract putting liability on me to refund money?  I certainly don't want to screw over the renters, but I will not agree to terms of a new contract that puts liability on me. Trying to let my conscience be my guide, but it seems to me that requesting me to refund money to him, but not offering cash refunds to his renters puts me in a situation to look like the "bad guy".  Any stipulation out there that says I can't contact the renters directly and work something out? My fear would be that he starts renting out the contracts that expire soonest, and my points maybe being rented last minute, or maybe not at all??  Then would he try and come after my $$ at that time?



By all means reach out to the renter. David's does not want you to do it, because it prevents him from charging the renter the new higher rental price. David's did tell some owners that he would pay them the 30% remaining if both parties report that they have successfully re-scheduled. Note that this really only works if your renter can travel before your points expire, and needs pretty much the same number of points. 

If you and the renter can't work it out, then you have a choice whether to allow David's to re-rent your points. If you decide not to, you do NOT have to give him a refund of the 70% you've received. If you decide you will allow David's to re-rent the points, demand that he pay the remaining 30% upon you providing a confirmation number, not when the member checks in. David's could be heading into bankruptcy, and you were due your money the May day that was the original check in day. Allowing David's to push that payment date back months increases the chance that you will never receive it. do NOT agree to the new rental agreement. Tell Davids that if they want to re-rent your points, it is under the old rental agreement. The new agreement requires the owner to provide a full refund in the event of a future resort closure. No owner should have to agree to that.


----------



## BDJazz

CraigInPA said:


> By all means reach out to the renter. David's does not want you to do it, because it prevents him from charging the renter the new higher rental price. David's did tell some owners that he would pay them the 30% remaining if both parties report that they have successfully re-scheduled. Note that this really only works if your renter can travel before your points expire, and needs pretty much the same number of points.
> 
> If you and the renter can't work it out, then you have a choice whether to allow David's to re-rent your points. If you decide not to, you do NOT have to give him a refund of the 70% you've received. If you decide you will allow David's to re-rent the points, demand that he pay the remaining 30% upon you providing a confirmation number, not when the member checks in. David's could be heading into bankruptcy, and you were due your money the May day that was the original check in day. Allowing David's to push that payment date back months increases the chance that you will never receive it. do NOT agree to the new rental agreement. Tell Davids that if they want to re-rent your points, it is under the old rental agreement. The new agreement requires the owner to provide a full refund in the event of a future resort closure. No owner should have to agree to that.


Thank you for the info.  I did verbally consent to re-rental but was never given the terms, as it was a phone conversation.  I just reached out via e-mail to inquire about the terms should I re-rent the points, stating I wouldn't abide by a contract that put me at risk.  I was never told the new contract terms had changed when I verbally gave that consent, so I'm hoping i haven't just made a mistake?  I'm assuming this is just something that I would find out at the point in time someone new wants to re-rent the points, at which point I would decline? Its so tough as I want what's best for me, my renters, and in all honesty David as well.  I've used him in the past and has always been great to work with. As an owner, I appreciate having a way to rent my points.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

BDJazz said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Im writing for some clarification.  As an owner who rented points to a family, whose vacation was cancelled in May, my preference would have been to work directly with the owners to work something out.  Am I correct in reading that if my points are now re-rented, they are subject to a new contract putting liability on me to refund money?  I certainly don't want to screw over the renters, but I will not agree to terms of a new contract that puts liability on me. Trying to let my conscience be my guide, but it seems to me that requesting me to refund money to him, but not offering cash refunds to his renters puts me in a situation to look like the "bad guy".  Any stipulation out there that says I can't contact the renters directly and work something out? My fear would be that he starts renting out the contracts that expire soonest, and my points maybe being rented last minute, or maybe not at all??  Then would he try and come after my $$ at that time?



If the renters are working with David's, then they got a voucher and can re-rent in the future...assuming David's is still in business then.  If David's business survives this, then they will be made some semblance of whole.  There are many valid arguments that these renters should be getting a full cash refund,  but David's is refusing to honor that part of his contract with his customers.

A lot of renters are simply disputing the purchase with their credit card companies and we are starting to see many of those first disputes come back in favor of the renter.  This likely means most, if not all, renters who dispute the charges with their credit cards are going to get their money back from David's.  They are being fully made whole.  This is something that has the great potential to put David's business at significant risk.

You are not obligated to agree to the new contract.  You can say no.  If you are not comfortable with the new terms, then I would NOT recommend you agree to them.  

Some people consider it the right thing to do to refund the money to David's.  That is your call.  I certainly cannot and will not argue with that point of view.  Refunding the money to David's will help his business potentially survive in the end.  It will help him to fund the vouchers he is now on the hook for and provide cash to potentially pay off the credit card charge backs that are coming.

A lot of owners, who have points that cannot be realistically used and/or rerented, are refusing to return the money to David's as they were promised no risks and were (for all intents and purposes) given a guarantee that they would get paid.  I also cannot and will not argue with this point of view either.  A lot of owners rented points with David's simply because they would be unable to use those points and wanted to get some value out of them before they expired and couldn't be used.  A lot of owners are going to have their points expire and be unusable.

Put simply:  It's impossible for everyone to "Win" in this scenario.  Owners, Renters, and David's can and will lose.  TBH, renters have the best possible outcome to this:  Dispute the charge with your credit card.  You'll get cash that, if you want, you can use to re-rent points later...put it in savings...pay bills...take it straight to Disney and get a good deal directly from the mouse when they reopen...Cash is KING!

Most recently reported interactions with David's seems to be along the lines of that he is letting owners keep that money, and asking that they re-rent their points with the promise of the remaining 30% being paid out to them.  Reports are mixed, but it seems that David's is paying some owners the remaining 30% now when the points are re-rented and for some owners David's is not doing that.  There have also been a report or two of David's agreeing to the old contract terms for re-rented points.  If that is important to you, then be sure to insist on this and don't feel obligated to rerent your points if David's refuses.

David's has been refusing to pay the remaining 30% to all owners unless they agree to re-rent and this will typically put those owners under the new terms.  There are many valid arguments on both sides of the coin.  I don't think ANYONE would argue that by giving the money back to David's that you are the "bad guy".  If anything, that is likely the best thing you are able to do from the "let your conscience be your guide" perspective.

Another point of view is that if enough people file charge backs, and enough owners refuse to rerent points, then David's inevitably goes bankrupt.  There won't be enough owners willing to rerent points to satisfy all the vouchers he's been issuing.  David's still has to pay his staff, rent, expenses, and these overhead costs aren't going away.  There are folks here that seem to think bankruptcy is inevitable.  While we don't have any insight into David's actual business finances, I can't say I would be surprised to see his business fail because of this.  

It's possible to argue that even if every owner returned every penny that David's still wouldn't be able to survive because of his overhead expenses...staff wages, rent, etc.  Most businesses cannot survive for three and a half months without delivering a single product...That's how long DVC resorts are likely to be shuttered (at minimum) at this point...mid March to end of June...3.5 months...30% annual loss of business.  Even once the resorts reopen... his business, or ANY travel business, isn't going to return to the levels they were before COVID.  Between the recession and folks being afraid to travel...THAT will likely take a year or two.

Additionally, Disney is likely to offer SIGNIFICANT discounts to get people to return back to the resorts/parks again.  I remember the height of "The Great Recession" when Disney pretty regularly offered a flat 40% discount on rooms.  Those prices put direct/CRO cash DVC rooms at about the same cost as going through David's.  David's price is going to be more directly competing with Disney's cash price.  That will dry up all his new business unless he lowers his rental rates...so either he's making LESS money off the top, or he's passing that reduced rate to the owners...that could also dry up the owners who are willing to rent with him.

My point on the last three paragraphs is that David's has a reasonable chance of failing, regardless of what happens.  If you refund money back to him, you may be sending that cash to be sucked up by the bankruptcy instead.  His renters won't see that money at all then.

If it were me, I'd agree to re-rent the SPECIFIC points that I originally rented with David's, including all of the use restrictions around them...banked points...borrowed points...Disney extending expiration on some points...etc...  I would only re-rent at the old contract terms, and if he paid the remaining 30% at the time I provide the reservation confirmation number.  If he rents them and I get the remaining 30% great!  If it's not possible to rerent those points, or David's is unable to find a new renter before banking deadlines, then i'd see if I could deposit those points in to RCI or try to use them for a last minute trip of some sort, and completely walk away not returning the amounts already paid.

In the end, do what you feel is best for you and your situation.  If you have the money to be able to give the money back, you have a reasonable ability to use/rerent your points in the future, David's agrees to let you rerent at the old contract paying you the remaining funds due at time of reservation, and/or it helps you sleep better at night...those are all things that are unique to you, your points, and your situation.  Weigh them carefully and you'll come to the right answer that makes sense for you...I don't think there really is a right/wrong answer here...and there DEFINITELY isn't one answer that applies to everyone's situation.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Why are you using an intermediary?



Sandisw said:


> Here is what I might add to the information. It’s part of the contract with my renter, but you should have it in yours
> 
> View attachment 495415


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Why are you using an intermediary?
> 
> View attachment 495487



I am not sure I understand your question.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Sandisw said:


> I am not sure I understand your question.


You said the attachment had language you suggested be added to an owner's contract to rent directly and that you used it.  the language says

" if accomidations are not ......on the part of Member (owner) _and after communication with the interm__ediar__y_

Why do you have an intermediary in your contract with a renter?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> You said the attachment had language you suggested be added to an owner's contract to rent directly and that you used it.  the language says
> 
> " if accomidations are not ......on the part of Member (owner) _and after communication with the interm__ediar__y_
> 
> Why do you have an intermediary in your contract with a renter?


That's an excerpt from David's contract.  I believe she was suggesting the PP include it in the information sent to the credit card company to support a charge back, not to include it in a private rental contract.


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> You said the attachment had language you suggested be added to an owner's contract to rent directly and that you used it.  the language says
> 
> " if accomidations are not ......on the part of Member (owner) _and after communication with the interm__ediar__y_
> 
> Why do you have an intermediary in your contract with a renter?



I actually used Davids to rent.  This was the first time I ever rented to someone I didn’t know and figured it be easier,

But, I posted that in response to a renter as what they should be showing from their contracts with Davids...to the CC company as documentstion.

So, this is the actual part of my contract for my renter through the broker,  It’s why I am so frustrated because what I thought was a good move, given what has happened, I’m locked into following through with it.


----------



## lovethesun12

Sandisw said:


> Yes, I think maybe in Canada? But, many airlines here are still processing refunds,
> 
> Delta just completely changed my flights from one layover to two and arrival time went from noon to 8 pm.  Called and no issues being refunded.


I'm responding here because I mentioned prior that I received a credit and it was common, so it's possible those thoughts originated from me, but have read some articles since that you should be able to get a refund in Canada as well due to covid.

I haven't looked into it since because my flights were partially purchased through a rewards program and vouchers offered by the airline but just thought I would put it out there that a refund seems to be possible now if they call rather than cancel online.


----------



## ScubaCat

Sandisw said:


> I actually used Davids to rent.  This was the first time I ever rented to someone I didn’t know and figured it be easier,
> 
> But, I posted that in response to a renter as what they should be showing from their contracts with Davids...to the CC company as documentstion.
> 
> So, this is the actual part of my contract for my renter through the broker,  It’s why I am so frustrated because what I thought was a good move, given what has happened, I’m locked into following through with it.



I did my first ever rental thru David's in February. Nice timing...     Checkin isn't til next January so hopefully my lifetime record of success with David's will be 1 for 1.  I certainly won't make this mistake again though. Disboards rent/trade forum next time for sure.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Me too !!


----------



## BDJazz

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> If the renters are working with David's, then they got a voucher and can re-rent in the future...assuming David's is still in business then.  If David's business survives this, then they will be made some semblance of whole.  There are many valid arguments that these renters should be getting a full cash refund,  but David's is refusing to honor that part of his contract with his customers.
> 
> A lot of renters are simply disputing the purchase with their credit card companies and we are starting to see many of those first disputes come back in favor of the renter.  This likely means most, if not all, renters who dispute the charges with their credit cards are going to get their money back from David's.  They are being fully made whole.  This is something that has the great potential to put David's business at significant risk.
> 
> You are not obligated to agree to the new contract.  You can say no.  If you are not comfortable with the new terms, then I would NOT recommend you agree to them.
> 
> Some people consider it the right thing to do to refund the money to David's.  That is your call.  I certainly cannot and will not argue with that point of view.  Refunding the money to David's will help his business potentially survive in the end.  It will help him to fund the vouchers he is now on the hook for and provide cash to potentially pay off the credit card charge backs that are coming.
> 
> A lot of owners, who have points that cannot be realistically used and/or rerented, are refusing to return the money to David's as they were promised no risks and were (for all intents and purposes) given a guarantee that they would get paid.  I also cannot and will not argue with this point of view either.  A lot of owners rented points with David's simply because they would be unable to use those points and wanted to get some value out of them before they expired and couldn't be used.  A lot of owners are going to have their points expire and be unusable.
> 
> Put simply:  It's impossible for everyone to "Win" in this scenario.  Owners, Renters, and David's can and will lose.  TBH, renters have the best possible outcome to this:  Dispute the charge with your credit card.  You'll get cash that, if you want, you can use to re-rent points later...put it in savings...pay bills...take it straight to Disney and get a good deal directly from the mouse when they reopen...Cash is KING!
> 
> Most recently reported interactions with David's seems to be along the lines of that he is letting owners keep that money, and asking that they re-rent their points with the promise of the remaining 30% being paid out to them.  Reports are mixed, but it seems that David's is paying some owners the remaining 30% now when the points are re-rented and for some owners David's is not doing that.  There have also been a report or two of David's agreeing to the old contract terms for re-rented points.  If that is important to you, then be sure to insist on this and don't feel obligated to rerent your points if David's refuses.
> 
> David's has been refusing to pay the remaining 30% to all owners unless they agree to re-rent and this will typically put those owners under the new terms.  There are many valid arguments on both sides of the coin.  I don't think ANYONE would argue that by giving the money back to David's that you are the "bad guy".  If anything, that is likely the best thing you are able to do from the "let your conscience be your guide" perspective.
> 
> Another point of view is that if enough people file charge backs, and enough owners refuse to rerent points, then David's inevitably goes bankrupt.  There won't be enough owners willing to rerent points to satisfy all the vouchers he's been issuing.  David's still has to pay his staff, rent, expenses, and these overhead costs aren't going away.  There are folks here that seem to think bankruptcy is inevitable.  While we don't have any insight into David's actual business finances, I can't say I would be surprised to see his business fail because of this.
> 
> It's possible to argue that even if every owner returned every penny that David's still wouldn't be able to survive because of his overhead expenses...staff wages, rent, etc.  Most businesses cannot survive for three and a half months without delivering a single product...That's how long DVC resorts are likely to be shuttered (at minimum) at this point...mid March to end of June...3.5 months...30% annual loss of business.  Even once the resorts reopen... his business, or ANY travel business, isn't going to return to the levels they were before COVID.  Between the recession and folks being afraid to travel...THAT will likely take a year or two.
> 
> Additionally, Disney is likely to offer SIGNIFICANT discounts to get people to return back to the resorts/parks again.  I remember the height of "The Great Recession" when Disney pretty regularly offered a flat 40% discount on rooms.  Those prices put direct/CRO cash DVC rooms at about the same cost as going through David's.  David's price is going to be more directly competing with Disney's cash price.  That will dry up all his new business unless he lowers his rental rates...so either he's making LESS money off the top, or he's passing that reduced rate to the owners...that could also dry up the owners who are willing to rent with him.
> 
> My point on the last three paragraphs is that David's has a reasonable chance of failing, regardless of what happens.  If you refund money back to him, you may be sending that cash to be sucked up by the bankruptcy instead.  His renters won't see that money at all then.
> 
> If it were me, I'd agree to re-rent the SPECIFIC points that I originally rented with David's, including all of the use restrictions around them...banked points...borrowed points...Disney extending expiration on some points...etc...  I would only re-rent at the old contract terms, and if he paid the remaining 30% at the time I provide the reservation confirmation number.  If he rents them and I get the remaining 30% great!  If it's not possible to rerent those points, or David's is unable to find a new renter before banking deadlines, then i'd see if I could deposit those points in to RCI or try to use them for a last minute trip of some sort, and completely walk away not returning the amounts already paid.
> 
> In the end, do what you feel is best for you and your situation.  If you have the money to be able to give the money back, you have a reasonable ability to use/rerent your points in the future, David's agrees to let you rerent at the old contract paying you the remaining funds due at time of reservation, and/or it helps you sleep better at night...those are all things that are unique to you, your points, and your situation.  Weigh them carefully and you'll come to the right answer that makes sense for you...I don't think there really is a right/wrong answer here...and there DEFINITELY isn't one answer that applies to everyone's situation.


Thank you for such a great, well-thought-out response.  So many unknowns here.  I appreciate you giving me some items to think about and consider.  I very much wish we could deal with the original renters directly and avoid this mess.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I wished it too and you can’t help but laugh when you step back and look at this big stupid mess !! Because trying to do the right thing by letting your heart conscience be your guide doesn’t work because well  
 - there’s David / and he is Messing up everything - as they saying goes - he’s the fly in the ointment! I’ve got more sayings but I would be kicked off the DIS and I love the DIS boards too much to do that !!


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

BDJazz said:


> Thank you for such a great, well-thought-out response.  So many unknowns here.  I appreciate you giving me some items to think about and consider.  I very much wish we could deal with the original renters directly and avoid this mess.


I  agree.  A HUGE portion of David's issues could've been resolved if he simply let owners and renters agree to reschedule.  Some owners would be unable to due to point expiration, others would simply be greedy and be unwilling unless David's paid out the remainder.  Some renters would be unable because they only get one time of year to travel and points would expire before hand, or unwilling due to concerns about COVID.  These are all valid points of view.  

But I can guess that about half of all of these situations would've simply been taken care of if David's simply got out of the way:
"Hey, I want to work with my owner/renter to try to reschedule"
"Okay, let me check with them and give them your contact info.  Be sure to let me know what you work out..." 

Options that owners and renters can come to could include rescheduling to a new room, new resort, new dates...maybe owners can bank points and push them a year forward...maybe an owner can use existing year's points themselves or deposit points in to RCI and give the renter the next year's points...maybe even the option exists for the owner to return the money to David's, David's then returns the money to the renter...maybe the renter would be willing to give up 10% to David's for his expenses for a cash refund, or keep 100% of it as his Voucher.

For owners/renters who refuse to make a compromise, THEN force your silly voucher on them.  I get there are going to be some Grade A prime "Gastons" out there who will only think of themselves and be unwilling to compromise...but I think for the most part everyone will be willing to figure something out.  At least give them the chance.

Again, I think AT LEAST half of the reservations could've been dealt with like this...ESPECIALLY once DVC gave an extension on expiration for the severely distressed points, and made unbanking the default, breathing a LOT of new life in to otherwise dead points.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Amen !! I begged him to contact my Owner and walked it up the food chain - they were very rude firm NO 
Once resort closed  -I again begged  - again firm NO 
Then I demanded a refund - they said too busy dealing with Florida - no problem chargeback 
As for MY renter - as I have previously posted - I contacted David’s and renter Before their checkin - no they did not wish to go - I stated to David I would rebook - he told renter as renter sent me that email - I had several email exchanges covering several weeks with renter to Nail down dates - when came time to book - before I booked - contacted renter as I had heard nothing from David in over a month - renter stated they took voucher  and wished me well! 
ok good luck to you getting your dates for Spring Break when David starts booking whenever the heck that is!!!
i will still have kindness in me for my other two rentals BUT I will not be reaching out to them
If I am asked to Re-rent - yes BUT under terms of the ONLY contract I signed the old one AND my 30% will be Paid at time of booking or I won’t book 
I have well over 300 points rented out currently with him 
Now if he takes FOREVER asking me to rent - well that dog don’t hunt! Because when my banking window opens believe me I’m banking - and since I can only borrow 50% he is going to be shooting his own foot! I think that little problem will start showing it’s ugly head soon enough in our big ole pot of HOT MESS!!


----------



## Amymouse13

WDWEPCOT said:


> Amen !! I begged him to contact my Owner and walked it up the food chain - they were very rude firm NO
> Once resort closed  -I again begged  - again firm NO
> Then I demanded a refund - they said too busy dealing with Florida - no problem chargeback
> As for MY renter - as I have previously posted - I contacted David’s and renter Before their checkin - no they did not wish to go - I stated to David I would rebook - he told renter as renter sent me that email - I had several email exchanges covering several weeks with renter to Nail down dates - when came time to book - before I booked - contacted renter as I had heard nothing from David in over a month - renter stated they took voucher  and wished me well!
> ok good luck to you getting your dates for Spring Break when David starts booking whenever the heck that is!!!
> i will still have kindness in me for my other two rentals BUT I will not be reaching out to them
> If I am asked to Re-rent - yes BUT under terms of the ONLY contract I signed the old one AND my 30% will be Paid at time of booking or I won’t book
> I have well over 300 points rented out currently with him
> Now if he takes FOREVER asking me to rent - well that dog don’t hunt! Because when my banking window opens believe me I’m banking - and since I can only borrow 50% he is going to be shooting his own foot! I think that little problem will start showing it’s ugly head soon enough in our big ole pot of HOT MESS!!



Well yeah you do you boo... David's is sure doing for him.  He signed the contract too so my response would be where is that in your contract?  Agreement to rent points that's it.  Nothing about what if Disney is closed.  Closest to signed contract is to rerent points to same folks, second is renting to someone else... Imo.  He doesn't rerent the points after you contacted him?  That's on him.  Sure 70% isn't 100%, but other than threats looks like lawsuit might be only recourse for owners as he's just making amendments on the fly for a situation never imagined.  Owners just wanted money for points.  I wouldn't jump on refunding money as it's not in contract and doesn't seem to help renter.  Heck I'm trying to keep all the money I can lol...


----------



## najgreen

For those of you that have had rentals, how did you get your official cancellation?  We are booked for mid- June at Aulani and Hawaii has extended its 14 day visitor quarantine through the end of June.  I have travel insurance and was going to make a claim (I figure I have nothing to lose) with AIG and see if they would accept it before then trying a credit card claim.  I called to find out what documentation they need, and they want the cancellation notification from the resort.  Do you get that from David's?  I know they are cancelling about a week out, so I won't get mine for another couple of weeks, but just wasn't sure who actually got the notice?


----------



## banzai75

There was no official cancellation from aulani. I asked for an email and they said they didn’t and won’t send any out.

I just used aulani screenshots


----------



## Dracula

najgreen said:


> For those of you that have had rentals, how did you get your official cancellation?  We are booked for mid- June at Aulani and Hawaii has extended its 14 day visitor quarantine through the end of June.  I have travel insurance and was going to make a claim (I figure I have nothing to lose) with AIG and see if they would accept it before then trying a credit card claim.  I called to find out what documentation they need, and they want the cancellation notification from the resort.  Do you get that from David's?  I know they are cancelling about a week out, so I won't get mine for another couple of weeks, but just wasn't sure who actually got the notice?


There is no cancelation message - the reservation magically disappears from the dashboard, just like the coronavirus is supposed to disappear one day. I can imaging it is going to be difficult to prove how the reservation got canceled. Screenshots are a good idea, and you may want to include as well a screenshot with Disney's notification that DVC reservations would be canceled one week ahead.


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

BDJazz said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Im writing for some clarification.  As an owner who rented points to a family, whose vacation was cancelled in May, my preference would have been to work directly with the owners to work something out.  Am I correct in reading that if my points are now re-rented, they are subject to a new contract putting liability on me to refund money?  I certainly don't want to screw over the renters, but I will not agree to terms of a new contract that puts liability on me. Trying to let my conscience be my guide, but it seems to me that requesting me to refund money to him, but not offering cash refunds to his renters puts me in a situation to look like the "bad guy".  Any stipulation out there that says I can't contact the renters directly and work something out? My fear would be that he starts renting out the contracts that expire soonest, and my points maybe being rented last minute, or maybe not at all??  Then would he try and come after my $$ at that time?


I just want to say that, as a renter, I don't see you as the bad guy!  I don't think there's a stipulation that says you can't contact the renter.


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

Grumpy by Birth said:


> View attachment 495454


Wow!  I'm keeping my fingers crossed my claim resolves in the same way!


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

So update/looking for advice: I just got an email from David's finally offer the voucher.  But I do not want the voucher (for all the reasons others have complained about it).  Do you think it's worth following up with Chase to say we got the voucher and found it unacceptable?  Or is my claim stronger if I don't send this information?  (Note: I already submitted 30 pages of documentation that basically say, "Here is the original contract.  It says if the accommodations can't be provided, then I'm due a refund.  Also, here are the many emails I exchanged with David's basically telling me I had no options because they aren't even doing vouchers for my dates of travel, despite the fact that Disney remains closed indefinitely."


----------



## Dracula

AnnieMouseMom said:


> So update/looking for advice: I just got an email from David's finally offer the voucher.  But I do not want the voucher (for all the reasons others have complained about it).  Do you think it's worth following up with Chase to say we got the voucher and found it unacceptable?  Or is my claim stronger if I don't send this information?  (Note: I already submitted 30 pages of documentation that basically say, "Here is the original contract.  It says if the accommodations can't be provided, then I'm due a refund.  Also, here are the many emails I exchanged with David's basically telling me I had no options because they aren't even doing vouchers for my dates of travel, despite the fact that Disney remains closed indefinitely."


I would refrain from going back to Chase at this point. Other renters advised their chargebacks were approved without any documentation - why overcomplicate things and bring up the voucher, explain you disagree with its terms etc - just wait for the decision from Chase. They would give a chance to David to respond, and you would then get a chance to submit further documentation as needed, but chances are good that Chase would not consider a voucher an acceptable form of refund.


----------



## AnnieMouseMom

Okay--thanks!  I hope I didn't provide too much to begin with, but all the documentation I sent earlier was basically that they were doing nothing, so I guess it's okay.


----------



## WanderlustinFP

Chase asked me for documentation. I sent them the original rental agreement,  the updated agreement (which I ignored) and the back & forth emails.

Chase did not require documentation from a couple of renters here. I wonder if it’s based on the amount charged. Mine was a few thousand dollars.


----------



## waltonmkb

AnnieMouseMom said:


> So update/looking for advice: I just got an email from David's finally offer the voucher. But I do not want the voucher (for all the reasons others have complained about it). Do you think it's worth following up with Chase to say we got the voucher and found it unacceptable? Or is my claim stronger if I don't send this information? (Note: I already submitted 30 pages of documentation that basically say, "Here is the original contract. It says if the accommodations can't be provided, then I'm due a refund. Also, here are the many emails I exchanged with David's basically telling me I had no options because they aren't even doing vouchers for my dates of travel, despite the fact that Disney remains closed indefinitely."



I just filed my dispute today.  My credit card company specifically asked if they offered any other compensation, so I had to say yes.  I sent all of the email correspondence with David's including original rental agreement and the new travel credit agreement.  On the original agreement I highlighted the part that says if no accommodation was available, I was entitled to a cash refund and noted that a voucher was never mentioned.  On the new agreement, I highlighted terms #10, #11 and #14 and made note that if I accept the travel credit, I must agree to all new terms and new risks that the original agreement did not have.  I also noted that David's can alter the credit at any time and I only have one chance at using the credit.  If the resorts close again during a 2nd reservation, I lose the credit with no possible recourse.

Edit to add that my credit card is through WellsFargo Visa.


----------



## BDJazz

Does your new agreement have any specific changes to the owner’s section as well?
Just curious because I got an email today saying terms for points re rented are under the “current” intermediary agreement. I’ve asked them to email me a copy b hasn’t seen anything yet. Could you copy and pAste the agreement (minus personal info) if you don’t mind?


----------



## Sandisw

BDJazz said:


> Does your new agreement have any specific changes to the owner’s section as well?
> Just curious because I got an email today saying terms for points re rented are under the “current” intermediary agreement. I’ve asked them to email me a copy b hasn’t seen anything yet. Could you copy and pAste the agreement (minus personal info) if you don’t mind?


 I think you can find it on his website. It is posted somewhere here to.


----------



## BDJazz

Sandisw said:


> I think you can find it on his website. It is posted somewhere here to.


Thank you. I just found it on his website. You are right. Thank you


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I can not imagine an owner agreeing to the new terms for points subject to the prior contract.  Has anyone done this?  I don't think I have seen this posted before although I believe I read David has sent the 30% and even agreed to pay the higher price.  I don't recall the subject of having a new contract come up



BDJazz said:


> Thank you. I just found it on his website. You are right. Thank you


----------



## Sandisw

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I can not imagine an owner agreeing to the new terms for points subject to the prior contract.  Has anyone done this?  I don't think I have seen this posted before although I believe I read David has sent the 30% and even agreed to pay the higher price.  I don't recall the subject of having a new contract come up



Which, after reading that again, makes me realize I will not be willing to reschedule my renter...as I once was.. or any renter.


----------



## VeroGuy

So I got the voucher email today but am kinda confused as my check-in isn’t until June 2nd. Should I assume that DVC has canceled the reservation?  It is still in MDE. I thought I read that DVC wasn’t canceling things until 5 days out?


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> So I got the voucher email today but am kinda confused as my check-in isn’t until June 2nd. Should I assume that DVC has canceled the reservation?  It is still in MDE. I thought I read that DVC wasn’t canceling things until 5 days out?



They are not, but CRO has canceled cash reservations and park hours have been removed through June 6th.  So, even though DVC hasn’t canceled that far out, they may be using what Parks and Resorts is doing as a guide to assume DVC won’t be opened either.


----------



## Grnl706

Just wanted to give an update. First, I got an email from David's today telling me that my reservation is not impacted just yet and to wait. They gave a date of June 7th as when I would most likely hear something.

Second, I had sent a letter to my owner awhile back. She actually responded today! From what I'm reading, David's has already given her the heads up that she may be needed to re-rent the points she used for me for another renter. Her use year is Sep 2019 and she wants to hold out to see what Disney does to get her points to expire in Sep 2021 instead (Not sure about the dynamics of that, she explained more but I don't want to go into too much detail). She does not know about the voucher and wanted to work with me through David's once things settle but David's will only let me do the voucher so that is out. 

It made me realize just how horrible the voucher is. Here I am with an owner that is willing to reschedule me for next year. David's can't let that happen because he needs to change the contract so here's the voucher with new terms. He can't just let us work together to reschedule even if we were both willing. 

I'm still waiting to hear back from my travel insurance but I'm so thankful that she reached out, it was very kind.


----------



## Disney1fan2002

Grnl706 said:


> Just wanted to give an update. First, I got an email from David's today telling me that my reservation is not impacted just yet and to wait. They gave a date of June 7th as when I would most likely hear something.
> 
> Second, I had sent a letter to my owner awhile back. She actually responded today! From what I'm reading, David's has already given her the heads up that she may be needed to re-rent the points she used for me for another renter. Her use year is Sep 2019 and she wants to hold out to see what Disney does to get her points to expire in Sep 2021 instead (Not sure about the dynamics of that, she explained more but I don't want to go into too much detail). She does not know about the voucher and wanted to work with me through David's once things settle but David's will only let me do the voucher so that is out.
> 
> It made me realize just how horrible the voucher is. Here I am with an owner that is willing to reschedule me for next year. David's can't let that happen because he needs to change the contract so here's the voucher with new terms. He can't just let us work together to reschedule even if we were both willing.
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear back from my travel insurance but I'm so thankful that she reached out, it was very kind.



Refuse the voucher, do a charge back and then work with your owner on your own. You may even save some money. She may rent to you for the price David's paid her.


----------



## Grnl706

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Refuse the voucher, do a charge back and then work with your owner on your own. You may even save some money. She may rent to you for the price David's paid her.


Is David's paying the owners the 30%? Or only if she re-rents to someone else?


----------



## Sandisw

Grnl706 said:


> Is David's paying the owners the 30%? Or only if she re-rents to someone else?



Most are not getting it. If they re rent the points, then he is delaying until the new check in....although a few have reported getting it At the time of the new reservation.

He seems to have made a few exceptions here or there and to be honest, no one knows why.  But, majority of renters being given only the option of a voucher regardless of what an owner is willing to do and majority of owners are being told refund the money received  or re rent To someone else, regardless of what a renter would like.


----------



## Disney1fan2002

the owners only get the 30% if David's can find them a renter


----------



## cvjw

Sandisw said:


> Most are not getting it. If they re rent the points, then he is delaying until the new check in....although a few have reported getting it At the time of the new reservation.
> 
> He seems to have made a few exceptions here or there and to be honest, no one knows why.  But, majority of renters being given only the option of a voucher regardless of what an owner is willing to do and majority of owners are being told refund the money received  or re rent To someone else, regardless of what a renter would like.



I bet he makes exceptions for the owners who rent out a lot of points with him. Ones that he doesn’t want to lose. That is the only reason he paid me the 30% that he owed me in March. I told him he would never rent another point out for me if he didn’t pay. He paid a couple hours later.


----------



## Dracula

Grnl706 said:


> Just wanted to give an update. First, I got an email from David's today telling me that my reservation is not impacted just yet and to wait. They gave a date of June 7th as when I would most likely hear something.
> 
> Second, I had sent a letter to my owner awhile back. She actually responded today! From what I'm reading, David's has already given her the heads up that she may be needed to re-rent the points she used for me for another renter. Her use year is Sep 2019 and she wants to hold out to see what Disney does to get her points to expire in Sep 2021 instead (Not sure about the dynamics of that, she explained more but I don't want to go into too much detail). She does not know about the voucher and wanted to work with me through David's once things settle but David's will only let me do the voucher so that is out.
> 
> It made me realize just how horrible the voucher is. Here I am with an owner that is willing to reschedule me for next year. David's can't let that happen because he needs to change the contract so here's the voucher with new terms. He can't just let us work together to reschedule even if we were both willing.
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear back from my travel insurance but I'm so thankful that she reached out, it was very kind.


Based on current DVC rules, September 2019 points could be banked until April 30th, 2020. At this time the points would expire on August 31st. Hopefully David can find another renter for these points, but most likely they would expire since availability is now very limited.


----------



## Grnl706

Dracula said:


> Based on current DVC rules, September 2019 points could be banked until April 30th, 2020. At this time the points would expire on August 31st. Hopefully David can find another renter for these points, but most likely they would expire since availability is now very limited.


Forgive me, I'm really just now learning DVC points.  I might have this wrong. They expire this September and If Disney cancels, they can be put back in the 2020 use year, right? Then they can be used until September of next year or is that off?


----------



## _auroraborealis_

Grnl706 said:


> Forgive me, I'm really just now learning DVC points.  I might have this wrong. They expire this September and If Disney cancels, they can be put back in the 2020 use year, right? Then they can be used until September of next year or is that off?


Disney may not be permitting putting points back by August. Terms may change.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

So here is my current understanding.  I am an owner and been paid the 70%.  My renter decided on the voucher.  David is not/does not appear to be close to sending me the missing 30%.  My points are safe because I got them banked in april.  My prior expectations, based on the loosely worded emails with David and reading here I was expecting David would re rent those points.  Send me the 30% and the price increase under the terms of the old contract.

If David is requiring the new contract then I am in great shape with 70% paid and my points back.  I can not imagine any circumstance where I would take liability for the reservation outside of me cancelling it.
Are people getting a new round of rentals already that spell this out or are people getting informal emails that are not clear with the new rentals?  It seems to me David is in a particularly bad place to be trying to be a tough guy in this situation.



Sandisw said:


> Most are not getting it. If they re rent the points, then he is delaying until the new check in....although a few have reported getting it At the time of the new reservation.
> 
> He seems to have made a few exceptions here or there and to be honest, no one knows why.  But, majority of renters being given only the option of a voucher regardless of what an owner is willing to do and majority of owners are being told refund the money received  or re rent To someone else, regardless of what a renter would like.


----------



## CarolMN

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> So here is my current understanding.  I am an owner and been paid the 70%.  My renter decided on the voucher.  David is not/does not appear to be close to sending me the missing 30%.  My points are safe because I got them banked in april.  My prior expectations, based on the loosely worded emails with David and reading here I was expecting David would re rent those points.  Send me the 30% and the price increase under the terms of the old contract.
> 
> If David is requiring the new contract then I am in great shape with 70% paid and my points back.  I can not imagine any circumstance where I would take liability for the reservation outside of me cancelling it.
> Are people getting a new round of rentals already that spell this out or are people getting informal emails that are not clear with the new rentals?  It seems to me David is in a particularly bad place to be trying to be a tough guy in this situation.


If I were in this situation, I would tell David I am more than willing to re-rent the points for any stay (up to the expiration of the returned points), but he would first have to send me the remaining 30% I am owed.  I would not want to wait for a new check-in date.    Take it or leave it..

I know I would NOT cancel the new reservation & if Disney does, then the new renter will have whatever option(s) the voucher or new contract gives him.  David wouldn't lose unless he refuses my offer, and if so, he will be out the $$ he already paid me.  So I think that is fair.


----------



## JETSDAD

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but it looks like they've just extended the travel credits to be valid for 36 months.  Probably better for them to have it stretched out over a longer period of time.


----------



## banzai75

JETSDAD said:


> I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but it looks like they've just extended the travel credits to be valid for 36 months.  Probably better for them to have it stretched out over a longer period of time.



just trying to entice more people to take it figuring they have so long to use it and give up their right to do a chargeback.

He is trying to give himself more time to survive now that he is seeing that he is losing the chargebacks


----------



## dischris11

I've tried following this thread but I haven't been able to keep up with it. I have a rental in June that I think will likely be cancelled due to the resorts being closed. Has anyone been successful with a chargeback yet? I know they take awhile and a bunch of people were waiting.


----------



## zskid00

I don't know if anyone has received a permanent chargeback claim in their favor.  Right off the bat they issue a provisional credit and then the final resolution can drag on for months and go back and forth.


----------



## banzai75

dischris11 said:


> I've tried following this thread but I haven't been able to keep up with it. I have a rental in June that I think will likely be cancelled due to the resorts being closed. Has anyone been successful with a chargeback yet? I know they take awhile and a bunch of people were waiting.



Renters - 3
David’s - 0


----------



## Sandisw

zskid00 said:


> I don't know if anyone has received a permanent chargeback claim in their favor.  Right off the bat they issue a provisional credit and then the final resolution can drag on for months and go back and forth.



Yes, we have reports of successful wins, which have been closed in renters favor.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Yes I have been !! Two billing cycles is what it takes - Disney Chase 
I submitted No paperwork did it over the phone and did it immediately when hotel closed because Hawaii was on lock down my checkin was May 2nd I submitted chargeback March 25 After I gave David’s several chances !


----------



## dischris11

Cancellation notices are going out today for non-dvc reservation times during my stay. How do I know when I'm cancelled and what do I use to show it's in cancelled to file a charge back? Thanks!


----------



## VeroGuy

dischris11 said:


> Cancellation notices are going out today for non-dvc reservation times during my stay. How do I know when I'm cancelled and what do I use to show it's in cancelled to file a charge back? Thanks!


I’ve got the same question because my trip still shows in MDE and online. How do I know it’s canceled other than getting a voucher offer from David’s?


----------



## Kevin_W

VeroGuy said:


> I’ve got the same question because my trip still shows in MDE and online. How do I know it’s canceled other than getting a voucher offer from David’s?



Good questions -I got the voucher offer while my trip still showed in MDE.  MY 5/23 reservation finally disappeared from MDE on 5/20.


----------



## Dracula

dischris11 said:


> Cancellation notices are going out today for non-dvc reservation times during my stay. How do I know when I'm cancelled and what do I use to show it's in cancelled to file a charge back? Thanks!


DVC cancels reservations one week in advance, on business days only. There is no notification sent. David wrote owners asking them to watch for such cancelations, and upon noticing a reservation has been canceled, owners are invited to either refund the money received, or inform David of their DVC points status and re-rent those points through David.


----------



## IdahoDisneyFan

Many thanks for all the helpful commentary in this thread! I just received notifications from Disney cancelling all of our dining reservations for a June 6-14 trip. Also today David's emailed me with the form voucher offer. Although I know DVC will not likely formally cancel our trip for another couple of weeks I went ahead and emailed David's indicating we would be seeking a refund. I am not responding to the voucher email at this time. Naturally I don't want to accept it, nor do I want to decline it...just in case. We intend to pursue a chargeback through Chase. Has anyone here started that process even before DVC formally cancelled the reservation? 

It appears to me many renters think their only option is to accept a voucher, so I am extremely grateful for the information I've gleaned here on the boards.


----------



## Amymouse13

So looks like Citi has applied a second conditional credit and David's has until July to respond?  Well this is fun... Not like I have nothing else to do with my time.  So appears process can be more like tennis... I serve, he returns, I return... SMH


----------



## Marionnette

Amymouse13 said:


> So looks like Citi has applied a second conditional credit and David's has until July to respond?  Well this is fun... Not like I have nothing else to do with my time.  So appears process can be more like tennis... I serve, he returns, I return... SMH


They originally gave them until June to answer, right? Did you supply additional info, so now they’re giving David’s time to respond?


----------



## Amymouse13

Marionnette said:


> They originally gave them until June to answer, right? Did you supply additional info, so now they’re giving David’s time to respond?



Yes they reversed bc he responded (that's how it works) but then he can argue now that I provided paperwork.


----------



## Marionnette

Amymouse13 said:


> Yes they reversed bc he responded (that's how it works) but then he can argue now that I provided paperwork.


I remember going thru a similar process with Citi. Took months but the credit stayed until things were resolved.

I had ordered a large amount of ceramic pieces when we vacationed in a Italy and had them shipped home. Two months after getting home, still no pottery. Emailed the store and tried to contact them thru FB. Nothing. Did a chargeback. Next thing you know, I get an email from the store with a shipping tracking number.

Pottery arrives, two pieces are missing. Citi asks if dispute is resolved. Nope. Emailed the shop again, with copy of receipt and the missing items circled.

Two weeks later, another package arrives. One item is the wrong size (I had ordered a matching oil and vinegar set, they sent the smaller oil dispenser). Citi asks is everything okay? Nope.

Emailed the shop again, this time with pictures of the mismatched set. Two weeks later, the correct oil dispenser arrives. Citi asked if all is good. I could finally say yes and the credit was removed from my card.

All this to say that Citi stood by me the whole way until the merchant made things right. But I’ll probably never be able to show my face in Ravello again. I’m sure that I caused that merchant a lot of headaches.


----------



## Amymouse13

When I first did online dispute credit was immediate, they didn't ask for documentation, David argued, they reversed, I sent documentation, credit again... We'll see...


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Yes I started chargeback in March my checkin was May - with Chase - hotel was closed - BUT mine was Aulani and Hawaii was on a lockdown which I’m sure helped


----------



## SageG

IdahoDisneyFan said:


> Many thanks for all the helpful commentary in this thread! I just received notifications from Disney cancelling all of our dining reservations for a June 6-14 trip. Also today David's emailed me with the form voucher offer. Although I know DVC will not likely formally cancel our trip for another couple of weeks I went ahead and emailed David's indicating we would be seeking a refund. I am not responding to the voucher email at this time. Naturally I don't want to accept it, nor do I want to decline it...just in case. We intend to pursue a chargeback through Chase. Has anyone here started that process even before DVC formally cancelled the reservation?
> 
> It appears to me many renters think their only option is to accept a voucher, so I am extremely grateful for the information I've gleaned here on the boards.


I just got off the phone with Chase (1-888-489-8452 is the direct number for the Chase credit card disputes department) to file my three disputes (split stay, plus two rooms for a part of the stay so three separate reservations/credit card charges).  They asked for just the basic information about my reservations but no formal documentation yet.  Just FYI, if you have to dispute three or more charges with the same vendor, then the first two can be automatically completed over the phone but any beyond that have to be filed in paper, so it will take a couple of days before I get the paperwork to submit on my third dispute.  Since I've opted out of paper mailing, the paperwork will come electronically, at least.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Amymouse13 said:


> When I first did online dispute credit was immediate, they didn't ask for documentation, David argued, they reversed, I sent documentation, credit again... We'll see...



Our company asked for documentation right away. We are an earlier reservation but started the process later as we gave them multiple opportunities to make it right without involving the CC first.


----------



## Amymouse13

DGsAtBLT said:


> Our company asked for documentation right away. We are an earlier reservation but started the process later as we gave them multiple opportunities to make it right without involving the CC first.



Our reservations were mid April split stay.  We have similar round two going with bank of America corporate but they don't seem to do online so my husband will need to call them to check tomorrow.


----------



## Kevin_W

SageG said:


> I just got off the phone with Chase (1-888-489-8452 is the direct number for the Chase credit card disputes department) to file my three disputes (split stay, plus two rooms for a part of the stay so three separate reservations/credit card charges).  They asked for just the basic information about my reservations but no formal documentation yet.  Just FYI, if you have to dispute three or more charges with the same vendor, then the first two can be automatically completed over the phone but any beyond that have to be filed in paper, so it will take a couple of days before I get the paperwork to submit on my third dispute.  Since I've opted out of paper mailing, the paperwork will come electronically, at least.



thanks, I was just about to look up that number.

I also had a split say - I paid the $119 deposit on each and then 2 days later paid the balance.  Would that qualify as 4 transactions, or only 2?


----------



## SageG

Kevin_W said:


> thanks, I was just about to look up that number.
> 
> I also had a split say - I paid the $119 deposit on each and then 2 days later paid the balance.  Would that qualify as 4 transactions, or only 2?


That's a great question and I should've clarified in my original post.  Based on the customer service rep that I spoke with, they count the number of separate transactions on your credit card statement, so for me it was six (3 deposits plus 3 charges).


----------



## Cyberc1978

I saw that some renters have won a chargeback at least initially have anyone lost or been declined by their credit card company?


----------



## Sandisw

Cyberc1978 said:


> I saw that some renters have won a chargeback at least initially have anyone lost or been declined by their credit card company?



We have t heard of any chargebacks that have been denied yet,  One person did say they lost a travel insurance claim.


----------



## SwirlTheCitrus

Okay, geniuses here, help~!

So, I contacted the person renting the points (through David's) and they rebooked my March reservation for May. That has now been cancelled. Can I still do a chargeback?

Also, I have a David's reservation in August-- will this CC Cb impact it? I won't be blackballed or anything, right?

Also-- has anyone tried a Paypal dispute?

How sure are we that David's is going under?


----------



## McCrae

SwirlTheCitrus said:


> Okay, geniuses here, help~!
> 
> So, I contacted the person renting the points (through David's) and they rebooked my March reservation for May. That has now been cancelled. Can I still do a chargeback?
> 
> Also, I have a David's reservation in August-- will this CC Cb impact it? I won't be blackballed or anything, right?
> 
> Also-- has anyone tried a Paypal dispute?



 Pay pal protection doesn’t cover time share renting.


----------



## CraigInPA

SwirlTheCitrus said:


> Okay, geniuses here, help~!
> 
> So, I contacted the person renting the points (through David's) and they rebooked my March reservation for May. That has now been cancelled. Can I still do a chargeback?
> 
> Also, I have a David's reservation in August-- will this CC Cb impact it? I won't be blackballed or anything, right?
> 
> Also-- has anyone tried a Paypal dispute?
> 
> How sure are we that David's is going under?



You can absolutely issue a charge back. 

I doubt David's would retaliate against you for the August reservation since cancelling you would trigger another chargeback he couldn't win.

There is conjecture that David's will fail based upon the volume of chargebacks, the ponzi-like voucher program, and the depressed demand for new bookings. As a result, he may literally run out of money. Only David's knows for sure what his cash position is, so everything you read here is purely a guess.


----------



## Choirmom

My sister has a rented reservation July 9 through 16 at VGC. We are not hopeful about Disneyland being open, but that is still nearly 7 weeks away. Since she has never rented before, if her owner cancels (and the parks are open), will she be notified before we all hop on a plane down to CA? It would suck not to have a room!


----------



## McCrae

Choirmom said:


> My sister has a rented reservation July 9 through 16 at VGC. We are not hopeful about Disneyland being open, but that is still nearly 7 weeks away. Since she has never rented before, if her owner cancels (and the parks are open), will she be notified before we all hop on a plane down to CA? It would suck not to have a room!


Why would her owner cancel? The reservation is only likely to be cancelled if the hotel is closed and Disney cancel it. Otherwise the owner will be liable For all her holiday costs.


----------



## Choirmom

McCrae said:


> Why would her owner cancel? The reservation is only likely to be cancelled if the hotel is closed and Disney cancel it. Otherwise the owner will be liable For all her holiday costs.


I was reading where owners were cancelling and banking points and I got a little concerned. Just wondering how we would know if the owner cancelled. She booked through Davids.


----------



## Sandisw

Choirmom said:


> I was reading where owners were cancelling and banking points and I got a little concerned. Just wondering how we would know if the owner cancelled. She booked through Davids.



The owners who have mentioned canceling are doing it now when we know resorts are closed.

If the owner did want to back out, ...think unlikely if resorts are open..they would most likely cancel at least 31 days out or the points are restricted. 

I am not sure with VGC how to verify reservations.


----------



## AquaDame

Choirmom said:


> I was reading where owners were cancelling and banking points and I got a little concerned. Just wondering how we would know if the owner cancelled. She booked through Davids.





Sandisw said:


> The owners who have mentioned canceling are doing it now when we know resorts are closed.
> 
> If the owner did want to back out, ...think unlikely if resorts are open..they would most likely cancel at least 31 days out or the points are restricted.
> 
> I am not sure with VGC how to verify reservations.



Would you not be able to use the confirmation number to see it online at https://disneyland.disney.go.com/my-hotel-reservation/auth ? I can see both of my rented reservations at the WDW site.


----------



## starry_solo

AquaDame said:


> Would you not be able to use the confirmation number to see it online at https://disneyland.disney.go.com/my-hotel-reservation/auth ? I can see both of my rented reservations at the WDW site.



No. You can't confirm a VGC reservation


----------



## Choirmom

starry_solo said:


> No. You can't confirm a VGC reservation


Can my sister call the resort to confirm? I really don't think the owner would cancel if the resort is open, but it would be nice to be able to confirm before we fly down there.


----------



## starry_solo

Choirmom said:


> Can my sister call the resort to confirm? I really don't think the owner would cancel if the resort is open, but it would be nice to be able to confirm before we fly down there.



I believe a week or two before the reservation beginning date.


----------



## Choirmom

starry_solo said:


> I believe a week or two before the reservation beginning date.


Ok. Thanks. This was supposed to be a once in a lifetime trip. 7 nights at VGC. Pretty sure it won't happen but want to be prepared just in case. As a consolation, hubby and I have 8 nights at WDW in October. Hopefully that will happen. If not, I will get over it, but it will be a very disappointing year after what started out as my Year of Disney.


----------



## stevef86

I'm admittedly still trying to wade through these posts, apologies if this has all been answered.

My family and I booked a rental through David's and received the voucher, which while I can appreciate David's feels that's the best/only fair way, we have concerns with it. I reached out to David's and didn't get very far, but a few points:



> Pay pal protection doesn’t cover time share renting.


- We used PayPal, so is considering a dispute totally moot at this point and ergo it would be advised to take the voucher?
- If we take the voucher and David's goes under, there's probably no recourse and that money would just be lost?

Thanks in advance, there's been a lot of good info skimming here, and we're trying to understand the full risk and make the best decision.


----------



## Kaufeegurl

If you used PayPal with your Credit Card you can do a chargeback with your credit card company.


----------



## Cyberc1978

stevef86 said:


> I'm admittedly still trying to wade through these posts, apologies if this has all been answered.
> 
> My family and I booked a rental through David's and received the voucher, which while I can appreciate David's feels that's the best/only fair way, we have concerns with it. I reached out to David's and didn't get very far, but a few points:
> 
> 
> - We used PayPal, so is considering a dispute totally moot at this point and ergo it would be advised to take the voucher?
> - If we take the voucher and David's goes under, there's probably no recourse and that money would just be lost?
> 
> Thanks in advance, there's been a lot of good info skimming here, and we're trying to understand the full risk and make the best decision.


Most likely you will lose a PayPal dispute. However if you used a credit card through PayPal you can contact the credit card company and file a charge back.


----------



## Dracula

stevef86 said:


> I'm admittedly still trying to wade through these posts, apologies if this has all been answered.
> 
> My family and I booked a rental through David's and received the voucher, which while I can appreciate David's feels that's the best/only fair way, we have concerns with it. I reached out to David's and didn't get very far, but a few points:
> 
> 
> - We used PayPal, so is considering a dispute totally moot at this point and ergo it would be advised to take the voucher?
> - If we take the voucher and David's goes under, there's probably no recourse and that money would just be lost?
> 
> Thanks in advance, there's been a lot of good info skimming here, and we're trying to understand the full risk and make the best decision.


If you used a credit card with PayPal, you are still covered by the credit card - should start there.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

If you paid with a credit card via PayPal, then I would try the dispute resolution process through both channels.  If one says no, then maybe the other will say yes.  I would try PayPal first, then your credit card account if PayPal doesn't come through for you.

Stevef86, in your case, I would try PayPal at the very least.  Even if you paid via PayPal with your bank account, the worst that happens is they don't cover it and you're right where you started.  If you paid via PayPal with your credit/debit card, then if/when PayPal doesn't cover the transaction, then go ahead and try it with your credit/debit card.

*If filing a chargeback with your credit card company, and you paid via PayPal, be sure to NOT file it as a fraudulent transaction.  Doing so will cause PayPal to flag your whole PayPal account for fraud and lock it down.  Be sure to file it as "goods not received" and/or "goods not as described".*

From PayPal's site about this:


> from https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US#purchase-protection
> 
> Dispute with us or your card issuer
> If you used a debit or credit card as the payment method for a transaction through your PayPal account and you are dissatisfied with the transaction, you may be entitled to dispute the transaction with your card issuer. Applicable card chargeback rights may be broader than those available to you under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program. For example, if you dispute a transaction with your card issuer, you may be able to recover amounts you paid for unsatisfactory items even if they don’t qualify for protection under a Significantly Not as Described claim with us.
> 
> You must choose whether to pursue a dispute with PayPal under our Purchase Protection program, or to pursue the dispute with your card issuer. You can’t do both at the same time or seek a double recovery. If you pursue a dispute/claim with us and you also pursue a dispute for the same transaction with your card issuer, we’ll close your dispute/claim with us. This won’t affect the dispute process with your card issuer. In addition, if you pursue a dispute with your card issuer, you cannot pursue a dispute/claim with us later.
> 
> If you choose to dispute a transaction with PayPal and we decide against you, you can seek to pursue the dispute with your card issuer later. If PayPal does not make a final decision on your claim until after your card issuer's deadline for filing a dispute, and because of our delay you recover less than the full amount you would have been entitled to recover from the card issuer, we will reimburse you for the remainder of your loss (minus any amount you have already recovered from the seller or your card issuer).
> 
> Before contacting your card issuer or filing a dispute with PayPal, you should contact the seller to attempt to resolve your issue in accordance with the seller’s return policy.


----------



## Kevin_W

SageG said:


> That's a great question and I should've clarified in my original post.  Based on the customer service rep that I spoke with, they count the number of separate transactions on your credit card statement, so for me it was six (3 deposits plus 3 charges).



I just called Chase and wanted to confirm what you said - since I had 4 transactions for a split stay (2 deposit, 2 for the balance) I have to file by paper rather than over the phone.  Unlike your case, they did not process the first 2 over the phone, but are sending all 4 by paper instead (hopefully, electronically instead of USPS).


----------



## VeroGuy

Well my June 2-7 reservation for Vero is no longer in MDE.

What did others do about contacting David’s? I do not want to reply to the voucher offer as I am pretty sure we don’t want to go down that road. I am also eagerly waiting Disney’s announcement tomorrow to see when Vero and HHI will open.

Would it be to much to ask David to move the dates and keep my original owner if the owners points allow for it? I would think this would be easier then writing a new contract and so on. Thoughts, is that being unreasonable?


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> Well my June 2-7 reservation for Vero is no longer in MDE.
> 
> What did others do about contacting David’s? I do not want to reply to the voucher offer as I am pretty sure we don’t want to go down that road. I am also eagerly waiting Disney’s announcement tomorrow to see when Vero and HHI will open.
> 
> Would it be to much to ask David to move the dates and keep my original owner if the owners points allow for it? I would think this would be easier then writing a new contract and so on. Thoughts, is that being unreasonable?



It is perfectly reasonable.  However, based on owners and renters experience so far, he has not been willing to do this.  Maybe, with the announcement tomorrow, and him having an idea of when resorts will be taking guests again, his stance will change!

It does not hurt to ask and go from there!!


----------



## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> It is perfectly reasonable.  However, based on owners and renters experience so far, he has not been willing to do this.  Maybe, with the announcement tomorrow, and him having an idea of when resorts will be taking guests again, his stance will change!
> 
> It does not hurt to ask and go from there!!


Thanks!  I’m hoping I can work something out with him.

on another note I am disappointed with the customer service. I didn’t get any kind of email or call from David’s at least expressing that they care about me the customer and are willing to work with all parties involved to come to a reasonable agreement to this situation. IMO a simple email or 3 minute call would go a long way.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Not wanting to be a Debbie downer here just an FYI from my own experience - you just can’t trust what he tells you as it changes with the wind - he could say he will work with y’all then turn around and not which was my experience 
Just my two cents but I wouldn’t put any faith in anything this Company has to say they have made it very clear to me who is important to them - not Owners and not renters which leaves David. Going forward I would not be able to do any business with them with the terms he is using. 
I wish you the best of luck and if he won’t work with you I would urge you to consider a charge back if you do not want his voucher. 
please post to let us know how it goes
Thanks !!


----------



## DGsAtBLT

DVC opening approximately 3 weeks before parks officially open makes me worried for renters who have reservations caught up in that period (and aren’t okay with resort only). No doubt that has to mess up chargebacks, but I wonder what David’s does with vouchers.


----------



## Krandor

DGsAtBLT said:


> DVC opening approximately 3 weeks before parks officially open makes me worried for renters who have reservations caught up in that period (and aren’t okay with resort only). No doubt that has to mess up chargebacks, but I wonder what David’s does with vouchers.




Yeah this is going to be a mess. Renters will want refunds. Owners will expect their money is resorts are open. Chargeback will be tough if resort is open and available to check into. 

based on david's past actions, I expect he'll tell renters they are SOL if resort is open AND likely try to find a way not to pay the 30% since they didn't checkin.


----------



## Minniesgal

Cyberc1978 said:


> I saw that some renters have won a chargeback at least initially have anyone lost or been declined by their credit card company?



A couple of people on my facebook group said they had been declined because they had a voucher option.  Not sure how true it is.


----------



## JasonV

Received the following questions from RBC.  Looking for advice on how to answer the questions to optimize my chances of winning the dispute.

-       What happened (a description of the dispute)?    
-       Did you cancel prior to the expected delivery date? OR    
Has the merchant cancelled (If yes, please provide the date merchant notified you and method of contact?    
If you cancelled, please provide the method of cancellation and date.    
What is the merchant's cancellation policy?    
-       On what date did you attempt to resolve with the merchant?    
-       How did you contact them?     
-       What did the merchant offer as a resolution?


----------



## VeroGuy

Has anyone been able to get through to Davids in the past day or two?  The live chat is down on the site and all I get is a recorded message when I call


----------



## DGsAtBLT

VeroGuy said:


> Has anyone been able to get through to Davids in the past day or two?  The live chat is down on the site and all I get is a recorded message when I call



They’ve been active as recently as about 30 mins ago on Facebook sharing the announcement.


----------



## Yinn

VeroGuy said:


> Has anyone been able to get through to Davids in the past day or two?  The live chat is down on the site and all I get is a recorded message when I call



It's been like that for months.  Email is your best chance, and even then you might not hear back.


----------



## OrangeCountyCommuter

VeroGuy said:


> Has anyone been able to get through to Davids in the past day or two?  The live chat is down on the site and all I get is a recorded message when I call


And that tells you all you need to know about the company...


----------



## VeroGuy

OrangeCountyCommuter said:


> And that tells you all you need to know about the company...


That is what I’m afraid of.


----------



## VeroGuy

Yinn said:


> It's been like that for months.  Email is your best chance, and even then you might not hear back.


Thanks I’ll email them.


----------



## Krandor

VeroGuy said:


> Has anyone been able to get through to Davids in the past day or two?  The live chat is down on the site and all I get is a recorded message when I call



They are likely swamped right now both with people who have trips during the now closed resort time AND people with trips planned during the no-parks time.


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> They are likely swamped right now both with people who have trips during the now closed resort time AND people with trips planned during the no-parks time.



Going to be very interesting to see how he handles this!  All I know is my renters will have both resort and parks...even if they are limited...during their dates.  So, I know I will be keeping that intact!


----------



## dischris11

Hi everyone. Are there any other reports about the success of chargebacks? As of today, my stay in June is officially cancelled and I am trying to contact Davids now.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

My renters just missed it I am very sad for them ! They booked a huge trip over 300 points ouch !! I wasn’t expecting my 30% if the resort was open but I’m sad for them as I don’t feel there is any value in the voucher - I would offer to assist but as I have posted that didn’t work out before thanks to the roadblock known as David’s


----------



## VeroGuy

dischris11 said:


> Hi everyone. Are there any other reports about the success of chargebacks? As of today, my stay in June is officially cancelled and I am trying to contact Davids now.


I am also trying to get in contact with Davids and have yet to be successful today. I sent an email about two hours ago, we will see if they respond. Good luck with the charge back if that is the route you decide to go.


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> Going to be very interesting to see how he handles this!  All I know is my renters will have both resort and parks...even if they are limited...during their dates.  So, I know I will be keeping that intact!



Yeah especially for the time period with DVC resorts open and parks closed.


----------



## WanderlustinFP

I believe there were three posters here who were successful with the charge backs.

I faxed over the documents for my cancelled trip that was supposed to happen two weeks ago, and called Chase today to make sure they received it. Chase went through the documents and said they will contact David’s for their side of the story. Right now I have a temporary credit and it should take 60 days for a final decision.

I never got through David’s via phone. No one ever picks up.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

That phone thing is kind of a shame, I always found beforehand they were really easy to get ahold of by phone even just to answer a silly question (or reassure you there’s still availability while sitting on a wait list ).

Think it says a lot about the volume of unhappy customers trying to get through as well as the scope of the problem there.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

There have been posts where the included travel insurance through a credit card booking was denied because David's provided the voucher.  

As previously mentioned, there have been a handful of successful credit card charge backs.

Chargebacks and the Travel Insurance provided by your credit card are TWO different things.  If you were denied for travel insurance, make a NEW phone call to your credit card company, tell them you want to do a chargeback on the charge.

If they ask for details of the voucher, simply say that the voucher was not in the original agreement and you don't accept the terms of the voucher.  The original agreement said you would get a refund not a voucher.  Include copies of your agreement, and highlight the relevant passage.


----------



## VeroGuy

DGsAtBLT said:


> That phone thing is kind of a shame, I always found beforehand they were really easy to get ahold of by phone even just to answer a silly question (or reassure you there’s still availability while sitting on a wait list ).
> 
> Think it says a lot about the volume of unhappy customers trying to get through as well as the scope of the problem there.


After trying to call all day I believe the phone system has been set to go directly to the recording and that they are not answering any calls at all. That doesn’t bode well for anyone who is trying to salvage an existing contract like me.  

It just speaks volumes to me, and I agree that before all of this I always had someone to answer questions by phone and to be honest I prefer having a conversation over the phone as I actually like interacting with people.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

VeroGuy said:


> After trying to call all day I believe the phone system has been set to go directly to the recording and that they are not answering any calls at all. That doesn’t bode well for anyone who is trying to salvage an existing contract like me.
> 
> It just speaks volumes to me, and I agree that before all of this I always had someone to answer questions by phone and to be honest I prefer having a conversation over the phone as I actually like interacting with people.



Yes I think it’s been shut down for a while and they’ve directed all communication to email, which I get from a CYA and also an organization perspective (gotta remember what you promised each person), but it certainly doesn’t make you feel confident in their operation.


----------



## Choirmom

So, there is a _possibility_ that VGC is open for our dates July 9 - 16, but the parks will most likely be closed. That will really suck! I feel like we would have no alternative but to go, since there would be no way to get the money we paid refunded.


----------



## iupui1299

I have a stay that starts June 21st and ends the 23rd. I would actually go for a resort only stay but via email David’s said they would not be able to move the date over one day. I’m not sure if my Total reservation will be cancelled or just the day they aren’t opened.


----------



## pincushions

I have a reservation at BRV June 21 check in via Dave's with a DDP for six people... Looks like Wilderness Lodge is opening the 22. Any idea how this will play out. I'm ok taking a voucher for 2021. Honestly would rather not go this year either


----------



## jp1138

DGsAtBLT said:


> DVC opening approximately 3 weeks before parks officially open makes me worried for renters who have reservations caught up in that period (and aren’t okay with resort only). No doubt that has to mess up chargebacks, but I wonder what David’s does with vouchers.


I am in this group, checking into BWV on July 5th and leaving the 12th. I have gotten nothing but a canned response from David's all day today. I am hoping they can work with me and owner to move the stay back. Even moving back one week would theoretically allow my wife and I to go to a park every day. I hope some kind of solution is worked out so I don't have to sit at the Boardwalk for 5 days with no Disney parks to go to. I am not very hopeful of this as of today though...


----------



## Deb & Bill

Anybody who has a reservation before the Disney parks open could go to Universal or Sea World.  They both open very soon.  But they will need transportation to get there.


----------



## VeroGuy

jp1138 said:


> I am in this group, checking into BWV on July 5th and leaving the 12th. I have gotten nothing but a canned response from David's all day today. I am hoping they can work with me and owner to move the stay back. Even moving back one week would theoretically allow my wife and I to go to a park every day. I hope some kind of solution is worked out so I don't have to sit at the Boardwalk for 5 days with no Disney parks to go to. I am not very hopeful of this as of today though...


You actually got an email back from Davids today?  I didn’t even get a canned response.


----------



## Krandor

With owners getting extra time now on their points you would think  David's would want to try to work with them to reschedule the renters if the renters were interested especially if during the period when resorts and open and parks are closed.  What are the chances?


----------



## Bearval

Krandor said:


> With owners getting extra time now on their points you would think  David's would want to try to work with them to reschedule the renters if the renters were interested especially if during the period when resorts and open and parks are closed.  What are the chances?


I think Davids burned that bridge to the ground then pissed on the ashes when he came up with that new owners contract .


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> With owners getting extra time now on their points you would think  David's would want to try to work with them to reschedule the renters if the renters were interested especially if during the period when resorts and open and parks are closed.  What are the chances?



The extension isn’t that much for many members.  And, to be honest, this broker has not seemed to be very willing to work with an owner and renter together,

Plus, for many extended points, there isn’t a lot left between now and November 30th to book.

Now, maybe with an almost month worth of resorts but no parks, he will change things around. IMO, I think many renters will be out of luck if the resort is open.  For them, I hope my cynical nature toward this broker is wrong and he comes through


----------



## Krandor

Bearval said:


> I think Davids burned that bridge to the ground then pissed on the ashes when he came up with that new owners contract .



I agree but do wish he'd come to his sense especially with points being extended.


----------



## Sandisw

jp1138 said:


> I am in this group, checking into BWV on July 5th and leaving the 12th. I have gotten nothing but a canned response from David's all day today. I am hoping they can work with me and owner to move the stay back. Even moving back one week would theoretically allow my wife and I to go to a park every day. I hope some kind of solution is worked out so I don't have to sit at the Boardwalk for 5 days with no Disney parks to go to. I am not very hopeful of this as of today though...



I can tell you not much left trying to move it back a week anyway..maybe SSR and OKW...but even though we’re going fast this afternoon.


----------



## Sandisw

pincushions said:


> I have a reservation at BRV June 21 check in via Dave's with a DDP for six people... Looks like Wilderness Lodge is opening the 22. Any idea how this will play out. I'm ok taking a voucher for 2021. Honestly would rather not go this year either



The entire reservation will be canceled since your check in date is on a closed day.  I would assume that you will be eligible for the voucher


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> The extension isn’t that much for many members.  And, to be honest, this broker has not seemed to be very willing to work with an owner and renter together,
> 
> Plus, for many extended points, there isn’t a lot left between now and November 30th to book.
> 
> Now, maybe with an almost month worth of resorts but no parks, he will change things around. IMO, I think many renters will be out of luck if the resort is open.  For them, I hope my cynical nature toward this broker is wrong and he comes through



I'm not a renter or owner but I do feel for renters whoa re going to caught in the resort open/parks closed situation and so wish there was something that could be done for them but yeah they are most likely going to be SOL.


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> I'm not a renter or owner but I do feel for renters whoa re going to caught in the resort open/parks closed situation and so wish there was something that could be done for them but yeah they are most likely going to be SOL.



I do too because had he started out letting an owner and renter work it out if possible, he may be in a better position to handle this.

In a way, it was easier on him with resorts and parks closed,  Now, many owners could take the approach resort open, so not changing and expect payment in full,

The bigger problem is that with every minute, rooms are going so even if an owner wants to help...there may be nothing that can work for the renter with new dates.


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> I do too because had he started out letting an owner and renter work it out if possible, he may be in a better position to handle this.
> 
> In a way, it was easier on him with resorts and parks closed,  Now, many owners could take the approach resort open, so not changing and expect payment in full,
> 
> The bigger problem is that with every minute, rooms are going so even if an owner wants to help...there may be nothing that can work for the renter with new dates.



While I know why Disney basically has to get the DVC resorts open ASAP for legal reasons it really has put David's and renters in an even worse bind then they were before. I don't think a renter can win a chargeback if resort is open and David's isn't going to offer a voucher. 

It makes a bad situation even worse.


----------



## iupui1299

I did hear back from them today after asking to shift my stay one day. They told me they could not make any modifications and brought up the voucher deal.


----------



## jp1138

Sandisw said:


> I can tell you not much left trying to move it back a week anyway..maybe SSR and OKW...but even though we’re going fast this afternoon.


I would take anything at this point! Much better than the alternative.


----------



## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> I do too because had he started out letting an owner and renter work it out if possible, he may be in a better position to handle this.
> 
> In a way, it was easier on him with resorts and parks closed,  Now, many owners could take the approach resort open, so not changing and expect payment in full,
> 
> The bigger problem is that with every minute, rooms are going so even if an owner wants to help...there may be nothing that can work for the renter with new dates.


This is why I was trying to get ahold of him today, I know every minute is precious at this point. I really hope to see a response to my email by midday tomorrow. I wonder what availability looks like at Vero for the last two weeks in June?

Cash reservations look to be nonexistent or it could just be the system being under maintenance right now.


----------



## Sandisw

VeroGuy said:


> This is why I was trying to get ahold of him today, I know every minute is precious at this point. I really hope to see a response to my email by midday tomorrow. I wonder what availability looks like at Vero for the last two weeks in June?
> 
> Cash reservations look to be nonexistent or it could just be the system being under maintenance right now.



They have cut off all cash And ticket reservations until further notice as they said they will work with people who have them already to get schedules for parks when the new reservation opens up.

DVC site is even struggling with so many members trying to change We don’t allow specific posting of rooms but will just say, it’s certain slim pickings for all resorts right now.


----------



## VeroGuy

iupui1299 said:


> I did hear back from them today after asking to shift my stay one day. They told me they could not make any modifications and brought up the voucher deal.


Yeah, I feel for you. In my situation I have a week at Vero in a One bedroom that is a decent amount of points and really would like to see when the owners points expire and get something booked ASAP under the original contract.

I don’t feel the restrictions in the new contract are fair.  I just don’t see why the hesitation to help his customers?  He would be out nothing moving my reservation by two weeks.


----------



## Sandisw

I wanted to add..for Renters,,,the extension of points is not automatic and some may not see them moved for a week or more,

Those who were told at the end of April that April and June points would be extended, were also told they would not have access until after June 5th.  So they can’t even book with them yet and some can’t even be booked online, only by calling..,

It is very possible some of the newest points will take longer


----------



## Marionnette

Krandor said:


> With owners getting extra time now on their points you would think  David's would want to try to work with them to reschedule the renters if the renters were interested especially if during the period when resorts and open and parks are closed.  What are the chances?


Owners are not getting “extra time” on their points unless the reservation falls during the closure. If the resorts are open, even if the parks are not, the owners are not having the expiration dates moved back.


----------



## pincushions

Marionnette said:


> Owners are not getting “extra time” on their points unless the reservation falls during the closure. If the resorts are open, even if the parks are not, the owners are not having the expiration dates moved back.



Seems like it would be a really small group of people over all (those booked in that window before parks open with points soon expiring). I don't understand why they couldn't be accommodated. All I know is I'm never renting points via a third party again after this, even if I get a voucher and it works out...


----------



## Krandor

Marionnette said:


> Owners are not getting “extra time” on their points unless the reservation falls during the closure. If the resorts are open, even if the parks are not, the owners are not having the expiration dates moved back.



AH I missed that detail.  So sounds like 6/22-7/11 renters have almost no options.


----------



## Sandisw

pincushions said:


> Seems like it would be a really small group of people over all (those booked in that window before parks open with points soon expiring). I don't understand why they couldn't be accommodated. All I know is I'm never renting points via a third party again after this, even if I get a voucher and it works out...



Do you mean DVC allowing an owner the extension because the reservation is a rental?

Or, owners willing to change a renter using other points they have if the ones originally used are not extended?


----------



## Marionnette

Krandor said:


> AH I missed that detail.  So sounds like 6/22-7/11 renters have almost no options.


It does seem like a no-win situation. While a number of DVC owners may be content to have a resort-only stay, I would bet that the majority of renters are heading there for a park-centric visit. But the rental agreements are pretty clear that it is for accommodations only. There is no guarantee that the pool will be open, the monorails will run or that the parks will be open. As long as the resort room is available to be occupied on the reservation date, I cannot see where a renter could even successfully argue a case for a chargeback.

ETA: I found the wording from the old “pre-COVID” rental agreement

_David’s Vacation Club Rentals is not liable for any operations changes by the Disney Vacation Club with respect to where you have booked your travel. This would include but is not limited to operations of resort restaurants, pools, play grounds and other amenities controlled by the Resort._​_
The Walt Disney Company and the Disney Vacation Club are constantly improving their resorts and properties for the current and future enjoyment of all guests. Your trip or your resort amenities may or may not be impacted by construction at Disney resorts and properties. While Disney might offer you access to alternate amenities, David's Vacation Club Rentals assumes no responsibility for situations that are not under its control._​


----------



## pincushions

Sandisw said:


> Do you mean DVC allowing an owner the extension because the reservation is a rental?
> 
> Or, owners willing to change a renter using other points they have if the ones originally used are not extended?



Disney actually accommodating them in any way... not necessarily on the owners.


----------



## Krandor

pincushions said:


> Disney actually accommodating them in any way... not necessarily on the owners.



Disney is supporting the DVC members as much as they can.   DVC has no relationship with renters.


----------



## Sandisw

pincushions said:


> Disney actually accommodating them in any way... not necessarily on the owners.



DVC can only do so much legally and to be honest, the extension of the 2018 points is a surprise as it could add a lot of extra points,

So, to offer owners extensions when resorts are open...we aren’t guaranteed parks as part of ownership...would create even more of an issue of excess points.

Disney the company, isn’t involved in DVC and has no obligation to owners to use their inventory to help either,

So, for renters who are stuck with reservations during park closure but resorts open, especially if it’s through a broker could end up pretty stuck,


----------



## lovethesun12

Krandor said:


> With owners getting extra time now on their points you would think  David's would want to try to work with them to reschedule the renters if the renters were interested especially if during the period when resorts and open and parks are closed.  What are the chances?


The border is currently closed so I wouldn't be able to go. I asked my rental company if they would reach out to the owner and rebook my stay, and I would pay the remainder of the cost upfront (I still have 40% left to pay). But they refused to do it. I guess they are all taking a hard line there, but I don't really get it in my situation since I offered to pay the entire 100% upfront. I feel like in my case they aren't making the owner or renter happy. Not sure what their plan is.


----------



## pincushions

Sandisw said:


> DVC can only do so much legally and to be honest, the extension of the 2018 points is a surprise as it could add a lot of extra points,
> 
> So, to offer owners extensions when resorts are open...we aren’t guaranteed parks as part of ownership...would create even more of an issue of excess points.
> 
> Disney the company, isn’t involved in DVC and has no obligation to owners to use their inventory to help either,
> 
> So, for renters who are stuck with reservations during park closure but resorts open, especially if it’s through a broker could end up pretty stuck,



Yeah i get the legal issues with the points but you would think they would do something other than burning people like that. Also to say Disney isn't involved in DVC at all is a little unfair its a tiered subsidiary WDC "controls"... that's a bit like saying PepsiCo has nothing to do with Gatorade or Pepsi.


----------



## Sandisw

pincushions said:


> Yeah i get the legal issues with the points but you would think they would do something other than burning people like that. Also to say Disney isn't involved in DVC at all is a little unfair its a tiered subsidiary WDC "controls"... that's a bit like saying PepsiCo has nothing to do with Gatorade or Pepsi.



Actually, based on the contract it is fair to say that, What  we sign as owners is clear.....TWDC is not liable for the program or its operation, including losses,

If one is not an owner, it may be hard to understand, but we sign up for it when we buy.  Don’t want to derail this thread, but it is the way it is,

Right now, unless a reservation is during an actual closure, an owner will not receive an extension of banked 2018 points or 2019 points beyond banking window.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Bearval said:


> I think Davids burned that bridge to the ground then pissed on the ashes when he came up with that new owners contract .


----------



## Marionnette

Well, I’ll give David’s some props. Someone on Facebook, from outside of the US, asked what would happen if the resorts are open but they cannot travel because their country is not allowing leisure travel to the US. David’s response was that they would receive a voucher. I half expected a too bad, so sad attitude and was mildly surprised that the renter was promised a voucher to cover the cost of their rental.


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> Well, I’ll give David’s some props. Someone on Facebook, from outside of the US, asked what would happen if the resorts are open but they cannot travel because their country is not allowing leisure travel to the US. David’s response was that they would receive a voucher. I half expected a too bad, so sad attitude and was mildly surprised that the renter was promised a voucher to cover the cost of their rental.



That is awesome for the renter! I’d love to find out if he is going to pay the owner the remaining 30% or just let the owner out of the contract and keep points.

He is moving in the right direction!


----------



## starry_solo

jp1138 said:


> I am in this group, checking into BWV on July 5th and leaving the 12th. I have gotten nothing but a canned response from David's all day today. I am hoping they can work with me and owner to move the stay back. Even moving back one week would theoretically allow my wife and I to go to a park every day. I hope some kind of solution is worked out so I don't have to sit at the Boardwalk for 5 days with no Disney parks to go to. I am not very hopeful of this as of today though...



Lack of availability will be the issue.


----------



## hazekids246

I'm sooo sad about our trip! June 26-July 3 BWV. No parks open, no chance of a voucher. We planned for this trip since Aug of last year as a celebration for my 2020 senior. With covid, not getting to see my grad walk across the stage and get a diploma to now not being able to access a Disney park while staying on Disney property. We've collected $1300 in Disney gift cards to spend AT DISNEY PARKS. Now all we will have access to is Disney Springs and possibly Boardwalk pool? It's definately not the trip we planned for But hubby and I will have to make the best of it for our kids. Maybe Universal or Seaworld, but its not Disney! Anyone else in our position or anyone with some advice for us.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Yes I have the standard advice - thank God you are healthy 
Thank God you are not losing your money on your vacation 
Thank God you can take a vacation 
I am sorry it is not what you wished and dreamed about but in the end it is more than what a lot of others may ever have 
The glass is half full not half empty 
So let’s start making lemonade out of these pesky lemons that have been thrust upon us! 
congrats on the graduation!!! It does suck it is not how you pictured it but it does not diminish the accomplishment !! 
a lot of us missed our vacation and are fighting for funds and even more lost jobs and lives this whole thing just sucks!! 
I hope you can salvage some fun - do try Universal yup it’s not Disney but it is not a hotel room either !!


----------



## Sandisw

hazekids246 said:


> I'm sooo sad about our trip! June 26-July 3 BWV. No parks open, no chance of a voucher. We planned for this trip since Aug of last year as a celebration for my 2020 senior. With covid, not getting to see my grad walk across the stage and get a diploma to now not being able to access a Disney park while staying on Disney property. We've collected $1300 in Disney gift cards to spend AT DISNEY PARKS. Now all we will have access to is Disney Springs and possibly Boardwalk pool? It's definately not the trip we planned for But hubby and I will have to make the best of it for our kids. Maybe Universal or Seaworld, but its not Disney! Anyone else in our position or anyone with some advice for us.


 Contact the broker and see if for sure you are not eligible for the voucher. Doesn’t hurt to ask!

Then, as you said, you’ll make the best of it!  Maybe they will be test running the Skyliner and that will be an option for fun!


----------



## Marionnette

hazekids246 said:


> I'm sooo sad about our trip! June 26-July 3 BWV. No parks open, no chance of a voucher. We planned for this trip since Aug of last year as a celebration for my 2020 senior. With covid, not getting to see my grad walk across the stage and get a diploma to now not being able to access a Disney park while staying on Disney property. We've collected $1300 in Disney gift cards to spend AT DISNEY PARKS. Now all we will have access to is Disney Springs and possibly Boardwalk pool? It's definately not the trip we planned for But hubby and I will have to make the best of it for our kids. Maybe Universal or Seaworld, but its not Disney! Anyone else in our position or anyone with some advice for us.


Okay. This sucks. No two ways about it and I’m not going to tell you to count your blessings. I’ve never found that kind of advice to be soothing when what I really want is a hug and someone to say that it’s alright to be mad, sad, angry, hurt and disappointed all at the same time. So, here’s a virtual hug. Go ahead and feel bad about this whole messed up world. I do too, even though I have a lot of blessings in my life.

Universal will be open. Take 2 or 3 days to really see everything.
Go to Volcano Bay (their water park).
Visit their City Walk for a change from Disney Springs.
Take in some of the kitschy attractions on International Drive (Fun Spot America will be open).
Do an escape room, again if they are open.
Visit Gatorland.
Rent a car and drive to the space coast. Hang out on Cocoa Beach.
Check to see if Splitsville in Disney Springs will be open by the time you visit and go bowling.
Visit Legoland
Try Busch Gardens
Resort hop to the various DVC resorts. Do a hidden Mickey challenge at each one. Offer a prize for the ultimate winner.


----------



## dnbdisney

Just received my email from David's that our June 13th-20th reservation has been cancelled and was offered the voucher.
My question is if we try for a charge back with our credit card company will David's not give us the voucher?  I know the voucher may not have any value if he goes under and who knows what availability will be going forward.  We are just trying to figure out our best option.


----------



## starry_solo

dnbdisney said:


> Just received my email from David's that our June 13th-20th reservation has been cancelled and was offered the voucher.
> My question is if we try for a charge back with our credit card company will David's not give us the voucher?  I know the voucher may not have any value if he goes under and who knows what availability will be going forward.  We are just trying to figure out our best option.



There was a report somewhere in the preceding 179 pages that someone did a chargeback and the voucher was taken away, with the mention that if the chargeback was not successful, it (the voucher) would be valid again.


----------



## Grnl706

Just received my voucher email as well for June 14th to June 20th. I plan on ignoring it and letting it sit. If the travel insurance doesn't work, I'm going to do a charge back. I read the terms again and it is just ridiculous. The best part is his two options at the end! Accept ALL of the above or keep your non-existent reservation? SMH.


----------



## DVC Doctor

David's "voucher" is worth less than the paper it is printed on.....oops, he probably is giving digital vouchers...my bad, perhaps that digital voucher can be resold on Minecraft of something like that.


----------



## dnbdisney

Grnl706 said:


> Just received my voucher email as well for June 14th to June 20th. I plan on ignoring it and letting it sit. If the travel insurance doesn't work, I'm going to do a charge back. I read the terms again and it is just ridiculous. The best part is his two options at the end! Accept ALL of the above or keep your non-existent reservation? SMH.


Thanks for the input, we think we will go for a charge back and see what happens.


----------



## jb405

hazekids246 said:


> I'm sooo sad about our trip! June 26-July 3 BWV. No parks open, no chance of a voucher. We planned for this trip since Aug of last year as a celebration for my 2020 senior. With covid, not getting to see my grad walk across the stage and get a diploma to now not being able to access a Disney park while staying on Disney property. We've collected $1300 in Disney gift cards to spend AT DISNEY PARKS. Now all we will have access to is Disney Springs and possibly Boardwalk pool? It's definately not the trip we planned for But hubby and I will have to make the best of it for our kids. Maybe Universal or Seaworld, but its not Disney! Anyone else in our position or anyone with some advice for us.



we are in a similar situation and yep, it sucks. We aren’t with David’s but another agency and we’re told the same thing, since the resort is open we are not eligible for credit. We are going to have a convo with management but don’t have much hope. If they still say no we will likely hit universal and the resort pool and make the best of it. It all around sucks. I knew it was a risk going in but the bad stuff only happens to other people right??


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Grnl706 said:


> The best part is his two options at the end! Accept ALL of the above or keep your non-existent reservation? SMH.


----------



## yankeesfan123

So my family and I decided not to go on our 8/10-8/14 trip. 2 bedroom standard at BLT. Rented through David’s obviously.

At this point I don’t really care about a voucher or trying to see if David’s can help move us out of the kindness of our hearts.

Is there any official way (that isn’t against the rules) to transfer this to a friend, family member, or a stranger on the internet? I assume no. But I’d just hate to see this wasted.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> So my family and I decided not to go on our 8/10-8/14 trip. 2 bedroom standard at BLT. Rented through David’s obviously.
> 
> At this point I don’t really care about a voucher or trying to see if David’s can help move us out of the kindness of our hearts.
> 
> Is there any official way (that isn’t against the rules) to transfer this to a friend, family member, or a stranger on the internet? I assume no. But I’d just hate to see this wasted.



No, you can’t change the names and if guest shows up not on reservation they would t be allowed to check in and you’d be in violation anyway.

The only thing you can do is confirm you won’t use it so the owner could salvage points but it won’t help you at all.

I would say if this was my renter and I knew ahead of time, I’d be willing to keep points and tell David’s to refund the renter the 30% of my fee that I was owed.

But I don’t think David’s is willing to do that. You could ask.


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> No, you can’t change the names and if guest shows up not on reservation they would t be allowed to check in and you’d be in violation anyway.
> 
> The only thing you can do is confirm you won’t use it so the owner could salvage points but it won’t help you at all.
> 
> I would say if this was my renter and I knew ahead of time, I’d be willing to keep points and tell David’s to refund the renter the 30% of my fee that I was owed.
> 
> But I don’t think David’s is willing to do that. You could ask.



But if the owner cancels and salvags the points arn't they in violation of their contract?


----------



## starry_solo

yankeesfan123 said:


> So my family and I decided not to go on our 8/10-8/14 trip. 2 bedroom standard at BLT. Rented through David’s obviously.
> 
> At this point I don’t really care about a voucher or trying to see if David’s can help move us out of the kindness of our hearts.
> 
> Is there any official way (that isn’t against the rules) to transfer this to a friend, family member, or a stranger on the internet? I assume no. But I’d just hate to see this wasted.




Do you have the maximum number of guests?  If not, you might be able to add guests to the reservation but not sub-let or transfer it?  It depends on what the rental contract says....does it allow addition of new guests not originally identified if you haven't reached maximum capacity for the room?


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> But if the owner cancels and salvags the points arn't they in violation of their contract?



Yes. That is why they wouldn’t do it without permission from renter and David’s. But if a renter knows they aren’t going to use it AND the renter isn’t getting money, they could technically confirm that and as long as David’s allowed them out..then it could work.

But. I doubt David’s will allow it.

ETA: I know if my renter in August doesn’t want to go, and Davids reaches out to me at all, my only remedy to him will be I keep points, 70% and I’ll willing give up 30% to be let out of contract, or except full payment check in day and lose the points.

Will not refund, reschedule, or rerent.


----------



## Sandisw

starry_solo said:


> Do you have the maximum number of guests?  If not, you might be able to add guests to the reservation but not sub-let or transfer it?  It depends on what the rental contract says....does it allow addition of new guests not originally identified if you haven't reached maximum capacity for the room?



My contract with David’s does not require me to add guests. Only fix spellings.


----------



## dischris11

I received the voucher offer today for my June 13-19 stay. I think we will try the charge back approach but has anyone had experience with using the cash booking option? If you use the cash booking do you get the same protections from Disney meaning if they need to close again, you would be able to refund or move your trip? I know there has been speculation about this based on the voucher language but I wanted to know if anyone has taken that option and has an answer.


----------



## Marionnette

yankeesfan123 said:


> So my family and I decided not to go on our 8/10-8/14 trip. 2 bedroom standard at BLT. Rented through David’s obviously.
> 
> At this point I don’t really care about a voucher or trying to see if David’s can help move us out of the kindness of our hearts.
> 
> Is there any official way (that isn’t against the rules) to transfer this to a friend, family member, or a stranger on the internet? I assume no. But I’d just hate to see this wasted.


I don’t think that David’s would even offer you a voucher. The resorts will be open, so that absolves him of any responsibility to make you whole. Your agreement with David’s might have a non-transferable clause in it, which is done to prevent people from reselling reservations at an even higher price. And even if David’s were to allow it, the owner might not be available to make the changes.

But I seriously doubt that David’s is going to permit you to get “off the hook” by selling a reservation that they brokered for you. What they might allow, with the owner’s agreement, would be to give you a voucher in the event that they can book another renter into those exact same dates.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Question - since DVC is canceling 5 days out and I currently have a renter for 6/15 and as of this morning the resv is still showing valid - where are these cancelled reservations for mid June coming from that David says are cancelled ??? I’m just confused 
Thanks


----------



## Sandisw

dischris11 said:


> I received the voucher offer today for my June 13-19 stay. I think we will try the charge back approach but has anyone had experience with using the cash booking option? If you use the cash booking do you get the same protections from Disney meaning if they need to close again, you would be able to refund or move your trip? I know there has been speculation about this based on the voucher language but I wanted to know if anyone has taken that option and has an answer.



No, booking a cash reservation doesn’t make you a Disney cash guest,  The voucher states if something happens, you are out of luck,  It is a one and done,  The only plus to picking a Disney room is it is more likely it will be easier to secure,

There also doesn’t seem to be consensus yet as to the rate one will pay if a special is in effect.  If you are considering it, I would find out if Disney has an advertised special going on and it’s one the website, will you be eligible for that .


----------



## yankeesfan123

Marionnette said:


> I don’t think that David’s would even offer you a voucher. The resorts will be open, so that absolves him of any responsibility to make you whole. Your agreement with David’s might have a non-transferable clause in it, which is done to prevent people from reselling reservations at an even higher price. And even if David’s were to allow it, the owner might not be available to make the changes.
> 
> But I seriously doubt that David’s is going to permit you to get “off the hook” by selling a reservation that they brokered for you. What they might allow, with the owner’s agreement, would be to give you a voucher in the event that they can book another renter into those exact same dates.


None of what you said addressed my question. At all. But thanks.


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> Question - since DVC is canceling 5 days out and I currently have a renter for 6/15 and as of this morning the resv is still showing valid - where are these cancelled reservations for mid June coming from that David says are cancelled ??? I’m just confused
> Thanks



I think he is assuming they will be based on the opening date as well as the cash reservation schedule of cancellations.

Even though DVC hasn’t actually canceled 2nd week of Jine, cash ones were last week, so he knew it was only a matter of time for DVC to catch up,

Of course, now DVC is opening much earlier than Disney hotels, so he could have gotten himself in hot water if they had decided to open DVC next week!


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> My contract with David’s does not require me to add guests. Only fix spellings.


Well, I think you misspelled “Samantha” when you wrote “Kevin”.


----------



## Marionnette

yankeesfan123 said:


> None of what you said addressed my question. At all. But thanks.


Okay. Here’s a more concise answer:
No. You cannot sell your reservation to someone else. Your contract doesn’t allow it.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> Well, I think you misspelled “Samantha” when you wrote “Kevin”.



Good one! That is caught at the beginning though...I know because I did it!

Unfortunately, there is no good answer or solution for a renter who doesn’t want to go when a resort is open, unless Davids decides to offer all guests vouchers.


----------



## VeroGuy

Sandisw said:


> I think he is assuming they will be based on the opening date as well as the cash reservation schedule of cancellations.
> 
> Even though DVC hasn’t actually canceled 2nd week of Jine, cash ones were last week, so he knew it was only a matter of time for DVC to catch up,
> 
> Of course, now DVC is opening much earlier than Disney hotels, so he could have gotten himself in hot water if they had decided to open DVC next week!


Unless the reservation is for Vero or HHI which are opening on 6/15. In that circumstance no email would have gone out.


----------



## pincushions

Can someone explain the issues with these voucher. How is the risk any different than the initial risk of renting points?


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Leaving contracts aside for a moment.
I am pretty sure the owner could call and change the names on the reservation for Yankeesfan123.  Just like the owner could cancel it.  I think but did not check David will sell existing reservations.  This would give dave a double dip.  Assuming this is paid for and David is holding the money what is stopping the owner/renter from changing the names?  Dave has all he is entitled too he doesn't deserve a double dip.


----------



## Marionnette

pincushions said:


> Can someone explain the issues with these voucher. How is the risk any different than the initial risk of renting points?


The vouchers have language that work against the renter.

Want to book another DVC reservation? You will need to pony up a deposit just to have them do a search. If you’re lucky enough to get an owner match, that deposit will be applied to the cost, if it is more than your voucher. And it will likely require more than your voucher covers because David’s raised his rental fees in January.

Another shutdown occurs and it affects your new reservation? Too bad, Cookie! This is a one-shot deal!

If the new rental or hotel reservation requires less money than the voucher amount, you don’t get a refund. You lose that amount.

If David’s goes belly up, your voucher is worthless. If you have a reservation booked in a DVC resort, the owner could cancel it because David’s is t going to pay them. If it’s booked at a Disney hotel, it may not be paid in full. You would be on the hook for the balance.

Can’t travel in the next 36 months? Or can’t get David’s to book something for you during that timespan? Too bad, Cookie! The voucher has an expiration date.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Marionnette said:


> Okay. Here’s a more concise answer:
> No. You cannot sell your reservation to someone else. Your contract doesn’t allow it.


Also didn’t say I was trying to sell it


----------



## pincushions

Marionnette said:


> The vouchers have language that work against the renter.
> 
> Want to book another DVC reservation? You will need to pony up a deposit just to have them do a search. If you’re lucky enough to get an owner match, that deposit will be applied to the cost, if it is more than your voucher. And it will likely require more than your voucher covers because David’s raised his rental fees in January.
> 
> Another shutdown occurs and it affects your new reservation? Too bad, Cookie! This is a one-shot deal!
> 
> If the new rental or hotel reservation requires less money than the voucher amount, you don’t get a refund. You lose that amount.
> 
> *If David’s goes belly up, your voucher is worthless*. If you have a reservation booked in a DVC resort, the owner could cancel it because David’s is t going to pay them. If it’s booked at a Disney hotel, it may not be paid in full. You would be on the hook for the balance.
> 
> Can’t travel in the next 36 months? Or can’t get David’s to book something for you during that timespan? Too bad, Cookie! The voucher has an expiration date.




That's the part that scares me everything else I can understand it appears to be typical.. My check in date is June 21 at BRV... provided they give me a "credit" also I paid via disney gift cards for the DDP about $2800. I assume my only options are to try and get the DDP credit back first and issue a charge back.


----------



## yankeesfan123

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Leaving contracts aside for a moment.
> I am pretty sure the owner could call and change the names on the reservation for Yankeesfan123.  Just like the owner could cancel it.  I think but did not check David will sell existing reservations.  This would give dave a double dip.  Assuming this is paid for and David is holding the money what is stopping the owner/renter from changing the names?  Dave has all he is entitled too he doesn't deserve a double dip.


I think the basic argument I’m hearing is that David doesn’t have to... but it would be a nice thing to do with very little effort.


----------



## starry_solo

pincushions said:


> That's the part that scares me everything else I can understand it appears to be typical.. My check in date is June 21 at BRV... provided they give me a "credit" also I paid via disney gift cards for the DDP about $2800. I assume my only options are to try and get the DDP credit back first and issue a charge back.



tell David’s you want to cancel the DDP To get the refund for that


----------



## pincushions

starry_solo said:


> tell David’s you want to cancel the DDP To get the refund for that



Any email I send them is sent back with a boiler plate response basically saying we'll reach out to you if your canceled...


----------



## Marionnette

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> Leaving contracts aside for a moment.
> I am pretty sure the owner could call and change the names on the reservation for Yankeesfan123.  Just like the owner could cancel it.  I think but did not check David will sell existing reservations.  This would give dave a double dip.  Assuming this is paid for and David is holding the money what is stopping the owner/renter from changing the names?  Dave has all he is entitled too he doesn't deserve a double dip.


The first step would be David’s willingness to put the contract aside and ask the owner to make the changes. There’s no harm in asking but David’s is not obliged to agree. There’s nothing in it for him except the goodwill it would buy him.

But contractually speaking, his agreement is not with the people a renter might choose to sublet to. It could open a whole can of worms for him if he allowed it. That’s why it would behoove him to just rent out the confirmed reservation to another renter that actually signs his rental agreement, if he chooses to make any concessions at all.


----------



## Marionnette

pincushions said:


> That's the part that scares me everything else I can understand it appears to be typical.. My check in date is June 21 at BRV... provided they give me a "credit" also I paid via disney gift cards for the DDP about $2800. I assume my only options are to try and get the DDP credit back first and issue a charge back.


I hope you still have those gift cards. When DVC refunds the dining plan, the money should go back to the form of payment that was used. The DDP should get canceled when the reservation is canceled by DVC and the refund should be automatically triggered then.

You can take to Facebook and pose your question directly to David’s there. I think some people are getting results quicker when they ask on social media. Or you may find someone who dealt with this already and they may have an answer for you.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> I think the basic argument I’m hearing is that David doesn’t have to... but it would be a nice thing to do with very little effort.



Correct,  He could always have allowed it, but the contract with owners,,and the reasons owners have booked with him and paid him a decent fee...was so they didn’t have to do anything more once the reservation was made,

In this situation, with so many renters not being able to go, he has taken the hard line, even when owners have said they would reach out to a renter and get them rescheduled.

That is why your situation is so difficult because he hasn’t been very renter or owner friendly since this started.

Maybe you will get lucky and he will be in a different spot and change His current practices!


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

yankeesfan123 said:


> I think the basic argument I’m hearing is that David doesn’t have to... but it would be a nice thing to do with very little effort.


I am kind of suggesting you contact the owner and think about doing it without David.  David has no connection into DVC he uses the owner for that


----------



## yankeesfan123

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I am kind of suggesting you contact the owner and think about doing it without David.  David has no connection into DVC he uses the owner for that


Agreed. Might try that route. My owner has quite a presence on the internet due to his business that accepts donations, so I might try that option once I get a response from David.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Marionnette said:


> I hope you still have those gift cards. When DVC refunds the dining plan, the money should go back to the form of payment that was used. The DDP should get canceled when the reservation is canceled by DVC and the refund should be automatically triggered then.
> 
> You can take to Facebook and pose your question directly to David’s there. I think some people are getting results quicker when they ask on social media. Or you may find someone who dealt with this already and they may have an answer for you.


I’ve only had my questions on Facebook to David’s deleted lol.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> Agreed. Might try that route. My owner has quite a presence on the internet due to his business that accepts donations, so I might try that option once I get a response from David.



Just be aware that an owner doing this for you could get him in hot water with his contract with Davids and he may be forfeiting the 30% he is still owed.

Obviously, that is up to him, but giving you background as to what could happen. 

Without Davids approval, a contract/name change To new renters could leave him without all his money.


----------



## Debbie Jean

I was able to re-book with David's using my voucher. Although I entered my credit card to authorize the search, no fee was assessed against it. The total was exactly what I paid for the original booking so no additional required.

This was not a huge booking. I am a long time DVC owner myself and used David's to add on a few days to a booking I already had. I go to WDW several times a year and was point poor. Usually I would do a transfer but for only a few days, I decided to rent..... first time, wouldn't you know? 

Was able to re-book for next March. While I got all the canned emails, when I finally submitted my reservation request, I got a prompt response.

Hopefully all goes well in the future both for me and the person who owns the points!


----------



## Bearval

Krandor said:


> I'm not a renter or owner but I do feel for renters whoa re going to caught in the resort open/parks closed situation and so wish there was something that could be done for them but yeah they are most likely going to be SOL.


To salvage their vacation they are going to have to settle for staying at a DVC resort while going to Universal and SeaWorld


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> Just be aware that an owner doing this for you could get him in hot water with his contract with Davids and he may be forfeiting the 30% he is still owed.
> 
> Obviously, that is up to him, but giving you background as to what could happen.
> 
> Without Davids approval, a contract/name change To new renters could leave him without all his money.


Unless I make up that money for him outside of David’s!  But this is all hypothetical. Who knows where this will go


----------



## Princess Michele

I am a relatively new DVC owner and have a couple of questions regarding rental reservations.  We did not have any plans for a Disney trip this year so we rented our points through David's to two different renters.  I have not had any contact from David's and have been trying to read through the thread to update myself on the current situation.

The first rental is 6/16/23/20 - 6/23/20.  Since this rental starts prior to 6/22/20 DVC should cancel it on 6/9/20 and the points will be returned to my account.  I used 63 banked pints to make this rental along with current year points.  I have a December use year so I know the banked points will be lost unless a new reservation can be made prior to 11/30/20.

The second rental is 7/6/20 - 7/10/20.   I used current year points for this reservation.  These renters are from the U.K. and I would assume that they will not be traveling with current travel restrictions in place.  Since this reservation is after 6/22/20 DVC will not be canceling it and in order for my points to not go into holding I would need to cancel before 6/6/20.  I know I cannot cancel the reservation without hearing from David's or I would be in violation of the contract.  Do you think I should contact the renters to ask if they are still planning on taking their trip?

Once my June reservation is canceled could I contact Member Services and ask them to use my 63 banked points for the July reservation to free up 63 current year points?  Would that cause a problem for the contract with David's?  I know I told David's how many banked points and current year points I had but I do not think they know which reservation used the banked points.  I am okay with losing the banked points but I do not want my current year points to go into holding.  I would love to be able to cancel the July reservation before the 30 day mark if the renters will not be using it but it sounds like trying to get a response from David's in the next week will be next to impossible.

I do not mind trying to change the reservation dates if that works for the renters but that does not seem to be an option based on what I have read here.   I am okay if I loose the 30% I am still owed if I can bank most of my current use year points.  This was the first time we rented points out.  Since we did not have plans for a trip this year I thought renting the points was a good way to help others have the trip they were dreaming of.   I think in the future I will just use the points myself or gift them to friends and family.

Thank you for any answers.


----------



## Bearval

Princess Michele said:


> I am a relatively new DVC owner and have a couple of questions regarding rental reservations.  We did not have any plans for a Disney trip this year so we rented our points through David's to two different renters.  I have not had any contact from David's and have been trying to read through the thread to update myself on the current situation.
> 
> The first rental is 6/16/23/20 - 6/23/20.  Since this rental starts prior to 6/22/20 DVC should cancel it on 6/9/20 and the points will be returned to my account.  I used 63 banked pints to make this rental along with current year points.  I have a December use year so I know the banked points will be lost unless a new reservation can be made prior to 11/30/20.
> 
> The second rental is 7/6/20 - 7/10/20.   I used current year points for this reservation.  These renters are from the U.K. and I would assume that they will not be traveling with current travel restrictions in place.  Since this reservation is after 6/22/20 DVC will not be canceling it and in order for my points to not go into holding I would need to cancel before 6/6/20.  I know I cannot cancel the reservation without hearing from David's or I would be in violation of the contract.  Do you think I should contact the renters to ask if they are still planning on taking their trip?
> 
> Once my June reservation is canceled could I contact Member Services and ask them to use my 63 banked points for the July reservation to free up 63 current year points?  Would that cause a problem for the contract with David's?  I know I told David's how many banked points and current year points I had but I do not think they know which reservation used the banked points.  I am okay with losing the banked points but I do not want my current year points to go into holding.  I would love to be able to cancel the July reservation before the 30 day mark if the renters will not be using it but it sounds like trying to get a response from David's in the next week will be next to impossible.
> 
> I do not mind trying to change the reservation dates if that works for the renters but that does not seem to be an option based on what I have read here.   I am okay if I loose the 30% I am still owed if I can bank most of my current use year points.  This was the first time we rented points out.  Since we did not have plans for a trip this year I thought renting the points was a good way to help others have the trip they were dreaming of.   I think in the future I will just use the points myself or gift them to friends and family.
> 
> Thank you for any answers.


I would call now and see if member services will allow you to switch the banked points now to the July reservation. If you don't ask the answer no.


----------



## Sandisw

Princess Michele said:


> I am a relatively new DVC owner and have a couple of questions regarding rental reservations.  We did not have any plans for a Disney trip this year so we rented our points through David's to two different renters.  I have not had any contact from David's and have been trying to read through the thread to update myself on the current situation.
> 
> The first rental is 6/16/23/20 - 6/23/20.  Since this rental starts prior to 6/22/20 DVC should cancel it on 6/9/20 and the points will be returned to my account.  I used 63 banked pints to make this rental along with current year points.  I have a December use year so I know the banked points will be lost unless a new reservation can be made prior to 11/30/20.
> 
> The second rental is 7/6/20 - 7/10/20.   I used current year points for this reservation.  These renters are from the U.K. and I would assume that they will not be traveling with current travel restrictions in place.  Since this reservation is after 6/22/20 DVC will not be canceling it and in order for my points to not go into holding I would need to cancel before 6/6/20.  I know I cannot cancel the reservation without hearing from David's or I would be in violation of the contract.  Do you think I should contact the renters to ask if they are still planning on taking their trip?
> 
> Once my June reservation is canceled could I contact Member Services and ask them to use my 63 banked points for the July reservation to free up 63 current year points?  Would that cause a problem for the contract with David's?  I know I told David's how many banked points and current year points I had but I do not think they know which reservation used the banked points.  I am okay with losing the banked points but I do not want my current year points to go into holding.  I would love to be able to cancel the July reservation before the 30 day mark if the renters will not be using it but it sounds like trying to get a response from David's in the next week will be next to impossible.
> 
> I do not mind trying to change the reservation dates if that works for the renters but that does not seem to be an option based on what I have read here.   I am okay if I loose the 30% I am still owed if I can bank most of my current use year points.  This was the first time we rented points out.  Since we did not have plans for a trip this year I thought renting the points was a good way to help others have the trip they were dreaming of.   I think in the future I will just use the points myself or gift them to friends and family.
> 
> Thank you for any answers.



You can not cancel any reservation with Davids or it entitles his renters to a refund,  So, you will have to wait for DVC to cancel the first one,

Once canceled, you can then modify the July reservation on your own to free up current UY points and have the banked points Used in that.  It won’t change a thing.   You can also call DVC and ask them to reallocate,  They can not do this until the first reservation is canceled and you have to let them do it so you don’t violate the contract with Davids,

In terms of the July rental, you are stuck.  Any cancellation by you without Davids express consent, regardless of what the renters tell you, voids the contract and you are liable,

I realize you want to avoid holding, and maybe help the renter, but as long as It is during times when resorts are open, you are entitled to get full payment,

For the canceled one, Davids will ask you to either refund the money or agree to rent those points again before paying you the balance,


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> Correct,  He could always have allowed it, but the contract with owners,,and the reasons owners have booked with him and paid him a decent fee...was so they didn’t have to do anything more once the reservation was made,
> 
> In this situation, with so many renters not being able to go, he has taken the hard line, even when owners have said they would reach out to a renter and get them rescheduled.
> 
> That is why your situation is so difficult because he hasn’t been very renter or owner friendly since this started.
> 
> Maybe you will get lucky and he will be in a different spot and change His current practices!


I am shocked. David’s offered to reach out to the owner to rebook if possible OR issue a voucher.

Even though my dates are in August and the resort and parks will be open.

I’ve been very critical of David’s here. And I’m aware of the downsides of the voucher. But they did not have to do this and could have just kept my money. I am shocked.


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> I am shocked. David’s offered to reach out to the owner to rebook if possible OR issue a voucher.
> 
> Even though my dates are in August and the resort and parks will be open.
> 
> I’ve been very critical of David’s here. And I’m aware of the downsides of the voucher. But they did not have to do this and could have just kept my money. I am shocked.



Great news! Maybe he has realized taking this approach is much better in the long run for his business.  Fingers crossed for you!


----------



## Amymouse13

starry_solo said:


> There was a report somewhere in the preceding 179 pages that someone did a chargeback and the voucher was taken away, with the mention that if the chargeback was not successful, it (the voucher) would be valid again.



That might have been me, true


----------



## Bearval

yankeesfan123 said:


> I am shocked. David’s offered to reach out to the owner to rebook if possible OR issue a voucher.
> 
> Even though my dates are in August and the resort and parks will be open.
> 
> I’ve been very critical of David’s here. And I’m aware of the downsides of the voucher. But they did not have to do this and could have just kept my money. I am shocked.


The voucher is an attempt to invalidate chargebacks. They are hoping you accept it since you will forfeit your ability to do a chargeback if you do.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Bearval said:


> The voucher is an attempt to invalidate chargebacks. They are hoping you accept it since you will forfeit your ability to do a chargeback if you do.


I’d have zero chance at a chargeback. Park is open. Hotel is open. No chance.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Sandisw said:


> Great news! Maybe he has realized taking this approach is much better in the long run for his business.  Fingers crossed for you!


I did remind him I was a frequent renter.... traveling with a nurse and school teacher..


----------



## Bearval

yankeesfan123 said:


> I’d have zero chance at a chargeback. Park is open. Hotel is open. No chance.


it is open for your scheduled dates?


----------



## Sandisw

yankeesfan123 said:


> I did remind him I was a frequent renter.... traveling with a nurse and school teacher..



Send my regards to both,  I retired from 33 years of teaching in November and it was perfect timing! God bless them in the work they are doing!


----------



## yankeesfan123

Bearval said:


> it is open for your scheduled dates?


Yup. Mid August.


----------



## Bearval

yankeesfan123 said:


> Yup. Mid August.


He is gonna need to try and keep as many of his long time customers happy but for most that ship has already sailed.   Made up rules as he went that seem to only benefit him.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Bearval said:


> He is gonna need to try and keep as many of his long time customers happy but for most that ship has already sailed.   Made up rules as he went that seem to only benefit him.


Yup. I’m aware. Hence my shock.


----------



## Princess Michele

Bearval said:


> I would call now and see if member services will allow you to switch the banked points now to the July reservation. If you don't ask the answer no.





Sandisw said:


> You can not cancel any reservation with Davids or it entitles his renters to a refund,  So, you will have to wait for DVC to cancel the first one,
> 
> Once canceled, you can then modify the July reservation on your own to free up current UY points and have the banked points Used in that.  It won’t change a thing.   You can also call DVC and ask them to reallocate,  They can not do this until the first reservation is canceled and you have to let them do it so you don’t violate the contract with Davids,
> 
> In terms of the July rental, you are stuck.  Any cancellation by you without Davids express consent, regardless of what the renters tell you, voids the contract and you are liable,
> 
> I realize you want to avoid holding, and maybe help the renter, but as long as It is during times when resorts are open, you are entitled to get full payment,
> 
> For the canceled one, Davids will ask you to either refund the money or agree to rent those points again before paying you the balance,


Thank you for your responses.  I will wait until DVC cancels the June reservation and then call Member Services to have the points reallocated.  I hope the July renters are able to make their trip.  Something I thought would be so easy has become very stressful.


----------



## momincolorado

yankeesfan123 said:


> I am shocked. David’s offered to reach out to the owner to rebook if possible OR issue a voucher.
> 
> Even though my dates are in August and the resort and parks will be open.
> 
> I’ve been very critical of David’s here. And I’m aware of the downsides of the voucher. But they did not have to do this and could have just kept my money. I am shocked.


Wow! Interesting that he would offer an option to rebook, which is I think what many renters really wanted, for a time frame in which the resorts are open but not for when they are closed. My reservation was in late March and rebooking was certainly not an option not even after the points extension.  My chargeback is still pending. I wonder if he has finally realized that after this fiasco, he will have very few customers left. I think you reached out on the right day and in the right time Glad it worked out!


----------



## yankeesfan123

momincolorado said:


> Wow! Interesting that he would offer an option to rebook, which is I think what many renters really wanted, for a time frame in which the resorts are open but not for when they are closed. My reservation was in late March and rebooking was certainly not an option not even after the points extension.  My chargeback is still pending. I wonder if he has finally realized that after this fiasco, he will have very few customers left. I think you reached out on the right day and in the right time Glad it worked out!


Right? I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a renter lined up for my dates in mid August already, but at a higher per-point price. And then when (if) I use the voucher, I’ll also be paying a higher per-point price. David’s wins here. But better than me losing over $3k.


----------



## lovethesun12

Marionnette said:


> Well, I’ll give David’s some props. Someone on Facebook, from outside of the US, asked what would happen if the resorts are open but they cannot travel because their country is not allowing leisure travel to the US. David’s response was that they would receive a voucher. I half expected a too bad, so sad attitude and was mildly surprised that the renter was promised a voucher to cover the cost of their rental.


Yup. I'm kicking myself again for not booking David's because I just lost a lot of money. My broker won't even contact the owner when I offered to pay them a rebooking fee, and offered to pay the full cost of the stay if they rebooked =(. Win some lose some.


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> Yup. I'm kicking myself again for not booking David's because I just lost a lot of money. My broker won't even contact the owner when I offered to pay them a rebooking fee, and offered to pay the full cost of the stay if they rebooked =(. Win some lose some.



Don’t beat yourself up because most renters so far have had the same experience with Davids that you did,  No option to contact owners, etc,

It seems he has made this gesture to guests,,,we have heard about two,,.whose reservations are during when the resorts are open but guests don’t want to or can not go, 

He wasn’t that helpful for those renters that had reservations during the closure,


----------



## lovethesun12

Sandisw said:


> Don’t beat yourself up because most renters so far have had the same experience with Davids that you did,  No option to contact owners, etc,
> 
> It seems he has made this gesture to guests,,,we have heard about two,,.whose reservations are during when the resorts are open but guests don’t want to or can not go,
> 
> He wasn’t that helpful for those renters that had reservations during the closure,


Thanks  He actually had it posted on his FB page. One person asked about travel restrictions for a fall trip; he wrote (in the comment section) that he is also extending the credits to renters who cannot get to Florida because of travel restrictions.


----------



## jp1138

yankeesfan123 said:


> I am shocked. David’s offered to reach out to the owner to rebook if possible OR issue a voucher.
> 
> Even though my dates are in August and the resort and parks will be open.
> 
> I’ve been very critical of David’s here. And I’m aware of the downsides of the voucher. But they did not have to do this and could have just kept my money. I am shocked.


This is incredibly encouraging to me!! I am booked for the week before the parks opens and have been consistently asking for a rebook option. I hope to be offered the same deal. (And will continually ask until I am given it, now that I know it exists)


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Bearval said:


> He is gonna need to try and keep as many of his long time customers happy but for most that ship has already sailed.






Sandisw said:


> Don’t beat yourself up because most renters so far have had the same experience with Davids that you did,  No option to contact owners, etc,
> 
> It seems he has made this gesture to guests,,,we have heard about two,,.whose reservations are during when the resorts are open but guests don’t want to or can not go,
> 
> He wasn’t that helpful for those renters that had reservations during the closure,



This is really counter-intuitive.  If resorts are open and the renter decides not to check-in, that's one of the few circumstances that is clearly defined in the original contract... Renter forfeits all funds and owner gets paid the remaining 30% on the day check-in was supposed to occur.

It's strange that David's would be flexible with renters who, according to the terms of their contract, are NOT due a refund, while simultaneously screwing over a LOT of renters who were prevented from checking in due to no fault of their own who, one could argue, ARE due a refund.


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> View attachment 497695
> 
> 
> 
> This is really counter-intuitive.  If resorts are open and the renter decides not to check-in, that's one of the few circumstances that is clearly defined in the original contract... Renter forfeits all funds and owner gets paid the remaining 30% on the day check-in was supposed to occur.
> 
> It's strange that David's would be flexible with renters who, according to the terms of their contract, are NOT due a refund, while simultaneously screwing over a LOT of renters who were prevented from checking in due to no fault of their own who, one could argue, ARE due a refund.
> 
> View attachment 497696



That is well said! I’m going to be one of those owners whose renters are out of luck if they don’t want to visit in August.

If Davids want to offer them something, great.  But it won’t involve me changing names or dates, and I expect to be paid in full.


----------



## Mickey009

I have been keeping my eyes to rent through Davids but I am having second thought about it.  Thank you for this link!


----------



## dismom58

One thing I noticed on another thread that is going to complicate this plan of David’s is DVC is not magically bringing your expired points back to life they are issuing new points rumored to be from their own points! These are issued once your points expire which closes the reservation window to a few months Two problems when the renter accepts a new reservation they have to do it in the window allowed by Disney for banked points which is going to be a very crowded window! Secondly you don’t know if David’s will have the points , owners may be fed up with him and walk away,  many renters are charging back their credit cards successfully this may help but what about limits on parks! Do you accept a reservation date then find out you can’t go to a park as they are at capacity? This is a massive balancing act he is playing! He probably won’t survive this as a business since his credibility goes away once limited experiences are not what some people will pay for, if too many vouchers request same dates and his points inventory can’t get those dates he now broke his voucher?


----------



## Scott C.

yankeesfan123 said:


> I did remind him I was a frequent renter.... traveling with a nurse and school teacher..


That’s good news! I am in the exact same situation and have been emailing David’s. We go in August, frequent renters, and wife is a nurse. My wife will not go in August. We will not take our kids/family on a plane yet since it’s too dangerous. I’m just hoping for a voucher no chargeback and this post at least brings me some hope. I was planning on renting again at a different time but just wanted to wait until it was safer to travel.


----------



## yankeesfan123

jp1138 said:


> This is incredibly encouraging to me!! I am booked for the week before the parks opens and have been consistently asking for a rebook option. I hope to be offered the same deal. (And will continually ask until I am given it, now that I know it exists)


Be careful on the rebook option (if offered). I very much preferred this option before yesterday, but given all the news with the cancellations of FP and dining reservations for the foreseeable future, rebooking 6 months or 11 months in advance might not be far enough to have a “normal” vacation. The voucher is good for 36 months (if David’s survives that long). Both options have their risks but it’s better than losing all the money.


----------



## Dentam

yankeesfan123 said:


> I am shocked. David’s offered to reach out to the owner to rebook if possible OR issue a voucher.
> 
> Even though my dates are in August and the resort and parks will be open.
> 
> I’ve been very critical of David’s here. And I’m aware of the downsides of the voucher. But they did not have to do this and could have just kept my money. I am shocked.



Wow, this is great news!  I have a rental for Labor Day week and don't want to go with all of the changes taking place and the lack of a vaccine.  I would love to just rebook for next year and your post here has given me hope!


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> If Davids want to offer them something, great. But it won’t involve me changing names or dates, and I expect to be paid in full.



That seems like a pretty harsh line to take since it wouldn't take much effort to change names or dates for people who are trying to err on the side of caution for their own health and the health of others.  But to each their own I guess.


----------



## starry_solo

pincushions said:


> Any email I send them is sent back with a boiler plate response basically saying we'll reach out to you if your canceled...



Well, at this point, all dining plans are being cancelled by Disney so you shouldn't have to worry about it.  Hope you kept your original gift cards for payment.  Otherwise, contact David's ASAP (via Facebook and other forms of social media) so he can make contact with the owner who can let DVC know to send new gift cards.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dismom58 said:


> He probably won’t survive this as a business since his credibility goes away once limited experiences are not what some people will pay for, *if too many vouchers request same dates and his points inventory can’t get those dates he now broke his voucher*?


He'll just change the terms and conditions again... subsection 9(j)(3) of the revised contract (applicable retroactively to all, of course) will read:



If you even inquire about availability on a date and there's no availability on that date, you have used your one chance to redeem your voucher.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I have already said this is a HOT MESS and now it gets HOTTER! 
I just can't wrap my head around this - My heart just breaks - people are losing their hard earned money for just wanting to take a vacation (I mean Owners and Renters)  - all from a deadly virus - you try and schedule and poof it is gone...or you schedule and roll the dice to see if poof it is gone - This is the BEST that can be done? I just can't believe this! Maybe I have this wrong - but I just would NOT want to try and schedule anything and would be rather nervous to go and wonder = do I have a room? Can I get into a Park? Will I be able to obtain food? For what Disney charges - Just not worth it. BUT...I would have to go if I rented - BUT this virus is thrown into the mix - and it has changed EVERYTHING! 
David's would offer worthless voucher to UK because of Travel restrictions - Yet didn't to US who had travel restrictions (??) - Offer to help - then backed out of offer to help - Disney is now open - but removes everything and says they will let you know later what you MAY be able to do. 
What is a person to do?? How were you to know 11 months ago that you would be here now?? People are so wrung out with all of this - I just wish there was a better answer. 
Sorry for my ramble I am just frustrated with this mess - NOT with people - just the situation - Well with one person DAVID I just think he could have done a better job than the one he is doing. I think Disney needs to offer information so people can make informed decisions - a lot of money and time is on the line and people need to be able to make decisions and some can't wait until the last minute to do those. 
And last - For What DAVID is getting in Commission is butt should be doing a WHOLE LOT better job than what he is - Just my opinion! 
Rant Over but I really feel for the people who have reservations and don't want to go and the Owners who have points and may end up with wasted points. Neither one wins = BUT David. It just isn't right. This is not a normal situation because of this virus and we all know this stupid virus will come back and we will all still be here dealing with this mess!


----------



## lovethesun12

WDWEPCOT said:


> I have already said this is a HOT MESS and now it gets HOTTER!
> I just can't wrap my head around this - My heart just breaks - people are losing their hard earned money for just wanting to take a vacation (I mean Owners and Renters)  - all from a deadly virus - you try and schedule and poof it is gone...or you schedule and roll the dice to see if poof it is gone - This is the BEST that can be done? I just can't believe this! Maybe I have this wrong - but I just would NOT want to try and schedule anything and would be rather nervous to go and wonder = do I have a room? Can I get into a Park? Will I be able to obtain food? For what Disney charges - Just not worth it. BUT...I would have to go if I rented - BUT this virus is thrown into the mix - and it has changed EVERYTHING!
> David's would offer worthless voucher to UK because of Travel restrictions - Yet didn't to US who had travel restrictions (??) - Offer to help - then backed out of offer to help - Disney is now open - but removes everything and says they will let you know later what you MAY be able to do.
> What is a person to do?? How were you to know 11 months ago that you would be here now?? People are so wrung out with all of this - I just wish there was a better answer.
> Sorry for my ramble I am just frustrated with this mess - NOT with people - just the situation - Well with one person DAVID I just think he could have done a better job than the one he is doing. I think Disney needs to offer information so people can make informed decisions - a lot of money and time is on the line and people need to be able to make decisions and some can't wait until the last minute to do those.
> And last - For What DAVID is getting in Commission is butt should be doing a WHOLE LOT better job than what he is - Just my opinion!
> Rant Over but I really feel for the people who have reservations and don't want to go and the Owners who have points and may end up with wasted points. Neither one wins = BUT David. It just isn't right. This is not a normal situation because of this virus and we all know this stupid virus will come back and we will all still be here dealing with this mess!


David has said he will offer a credit on FB to anyone unable to travel due to restrictions.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

That is wonderful 
David said to me as an Owner he would allow me to work with my renter to rebook them and then changed his tune 
I as a renter could not go because of travel restrictions David flat refused to do Anything after asking multiple times I submitted a chargeback and won 
David has Never offered me a voucher 
David has yet to contact me again about re-renting my points which I stated to him in writing I would do 
My personal opinion only I really don’t trust anything that Company will say or do at this point 
I know one thing - I flat refuse his new terms and conditions


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> That seems like a pretty harsh line to take since it wouldn't take much effort to change names or dates for people who are trying to err on the side of caution for their own health and the health of others.  But to each their own I guess.



I admit it is harsh.  But, I have no desire to continue to work with this broker beyond what I contracted for and won’t ever again,

Changing  dates means I am stuck with a rental longer than I planned to and not interested in that,  Changing names means I will be under his new contract which has terms I’d never agree to in the first place,

So, it’s not as simple as it sounds from an owners perspective.  Now, I would be willing to give up the rest of funds owed me to be let out of the contract, keep the points and walk away with what I have been paid.  That gives Davids, between his commission and my unpaid share almost 50% of what the renter gave him to refund them or give a voucher,

But, if resorts and parks are open, and a renter doesn’t feel comfortable going, that is a choice and sometimes hard choices come with consequences not ideal,


----------



## Sandisw

lovethesun12 said:


> David has said he will offer a credit on FB to anyone unable to travel due to restrictions.



So, if an owner is a US resident with no travel restrictions in place, but just doesn’t want to go, what will he do?

And, what about the owners? Will they be paid in full regardless? The plot thickens!


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> I admit it is harsh.  But, I have no desire to continue to work with this broker beyond what I contracted for and won’t ever again,
> 
> Changing  dates means I am stuck with a rental longer than I planned to and not interested in that,  Changing names means I will be under his new contract which has terms I’d never agree to in the first place,
> 
> So, it’s not as simple as it sounds from an owners perspective.  Now, I would be willing to give up the rest of funds owed me to be let out of the contract, keep the points and walk away with what I have been paid.  That gives Davids, between his commission and my unpaid share almost 50% of what the renter gave him to refund them or give a voucher,
> 
> But, if resorts and parks are open, and a renter doesn’t feel comfortable going, that is a choice and sometimes hard choices come with consequences not ideal,



Those reasons do make sense and I can understand your reasoning - thanks for explaining your stance on this.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

EXACTLY !! What Happens? Who the heck knows? Where is that darn Magic 8 Ball??


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> EXACTLY !! What Happens? Who the heck knows? Where is that darn Magic 8 Ball??



<<SHAKE>>

<<SHAKE>>


<<SHAKE>>


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> <<SHAKE>>
> View attachment 497769
> <<SHAKE>>
> View attachment 497770
> 
> <<SHAKE>>
> View attachment 497771



Just got to add your daily visuals make me laugh.  I know everyone is stressed and it’s hard not to be, but, yeah...I am enjoying the humor!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I so LOVE your pictures!!! THANK YOU!!!!!! ❤


----------



## Grumpy by Birth




----------



## AnnieMouseMom

Update: I called Chase Sapphire today and it seems that we won our dispute.  They said David's does have 30 days to respond (I don't know if anyone on here has survived the 30 day window yet after they got their refund).  But the point is, at this stage, we won the dispute and the money is being returned to our account.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

AnnieMouseMom said:


> Update: I called Chase Sapphire today and it seems that we won our dispute.  They said David's does have 30 days to respond (I don't know if anyone on here has survived the 30 day window yet after they got their refund).  But the point is, at this stage, we won the dispute and the money is being returned to our account.



Awesome! Thanks for sharing


----------



## banzai75

AnnieMouseMom said:


> Update: I called Chase Sapphire today and it seems that we won our dispute.  They said David's does have 30 days to respond (I don't know if anyone on here has survived the 30 day window yet after they got their refund).  But the point is, at this stage, we won the dispute and the money is being returned to our account.


When did you file the chargeback ?


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> My contract with David’s does not require me to add guests. Only fix spellings.



Very interesting... on my confirmation it says this:

"For any requests for this reservation, such as changes in the number of guests, magical express or the dining plan, we will require a minimum of 30 days advance notice to ensure that the member can be contacted in enough time to execute the request."

I did add my husband a few days after I made the reservation when he changed his mind, but it did not occur to me with this verbage that it was not covered under the contract. You'd think the only reason they wouldn't would be timing. I had also considered gifting my reservation away, and may still ask in the hopes the owner's don't mind if I find anyone willing to travel. 

If the owners are getting 100% while I'm getting 0%... it sure feels like an easy enough ask.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> Very interesting... on my confirmation it says this:
> 
> "For any requests for this reservation, such as changes in the number of guests, magical express or the dining plan, we will require a minimum of 30 days advance notice to ensure that the member can be contacted in enough time to execute the request."
> 
> I did add my husband a few days after I made the reservation when he changed his mind, but it did not occur to me with this verbage that it was not covered under the contract. You'd think the only reason they wouldn't would be timing. I had also considered gifting my reservation away, and may still ask in the hopes the owner's don't mind if I find anyone willing to travel.
> 
> If the owners are getting 100% while I'm getting 0%... it sure feels like an easy enough ask.



I was referring to the question of a renter adding new guests not part of their family, and talking themselves off..subletting the reservation

Changing who the renters are is a change in the contract and that I am not obligated to agree to do, 

But, you are correct, if my renter had room and wanted to add a guest, that would be my responsibility.

Thanks for catching so I could clear up the point I was trying ot make.


----------



## Dracula

Sandisw said:


> I was referring to the question of a renter adding new guests not part of their family, and talking themselves off..subletting the reservation
> 
> But, you are correct, if my renter had room and wanted to add a guest, that would be my responsibility.
> 
> Thanks for catching so I could clear up the point I was trying ot make.


Subletting the reservation is inconvenient for the owner, since it involves calling Member Services with long lead time, to potentially allow the renter to make a profit by subletting at a higher price. Not that there is anything wrong with making a profit with a well-timed investment, but it should be based on the renter's time and effort, not the owner's.

On rare occasions where David asked me to modify existing reservations, he offered me $1 per point to do so.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Question - would DVC Allow it? Doesn’t the reservation have to keep the original guest or it becomes a new reservation ?


----------



## Dracula

WDWEPCOT said:


> Question - would DVC Allow it? Doesn’t the reservation have to keep the original guest or it becomes a new reservation ?


It remains the same reservation. Canceling a reservation is very risky as the room would be released and could instantly go to a waitlisted booking.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

May I inquire what kind of mod you made that would induce David to pay you to do it ? It would seem it would be outside of your contract ? I’m just curious if you don’t mind sharing - if you do mind that is cool too


----------



## WDWEPCOT

So you would have to cancel and rebook not modify by adding and removing names that is what I thought I just got confused 
Thanks


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> Question - would DVC Allow it? Doesn’t the reservation have to keep the original guest or it becomes a new reservation ?



No.  You can not change the lead name online, but you can modify guests as much as you want as an owner,

Disney has a rule for cash reservations booked on bounce back that the lead has to stay on it, but not DVC

So, if you need to change all guests, just chat with MS and tell them to update guests,  If the lead guest remains, you can add and change all others online.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

the reason I asked as I have been told by DVC that very rule


----------



## Dracula

WDWEPCOT said:


> May I inquire what kind of mod you made that would induce David to pay you to do it ? It would seem it would be outside of your contract ? I’m just curious if you don’t mind sharing - if you do mind that is cool too


Once it was a different room type for the same days, and once it was a main guest name change, I think. Yes, it is outside of the contract - but if I can make an extra $1pp for working a bit to change a reservation, why not?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Oh I agree ! 
I had inquired on my rental way back before this nightmare if there was any way I could upgrade my room to be rudely met from David’s with No - I was more than willing to pay for the changes and it was 11 months out - would it have killed them to at least inquire ? Customer Service is a foreign language to that company long before covid !


----------



## New Mouse

So when theme park reservations open up, who is gonna book for the renters, considering the owners are the ones getting contacted?


----------



## Grnl706

Dentam said:


> I emailed David's this morning about my Labor Day week trip and let them know that I am not comfortable traveling to a tourist destination before a vaccine is available.  They responded promptly with these options:
> 
> As the Disney Vacation Club resorts are officially open during your stay, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation.
> Although the contract will have been fulfilled, we are committed to going above and beyond in offering you the following option.
> What we can offer is to attempt to re-rent your reservation. We will be responsible for trying to find another renter for this reservation. If we are successful, then we can offer you the following compensation:
> 100% of your funds, in the form of a Travel Credit. The Travel Credit is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking) or Adventures by Disney
> Or
> A partial refund. There will be a restocking fee of _$3.00 per point_, which is used to cover the costs of the fees, workforce, and the use of our resources to advertise the reservation. Once the new renter pays for their booking, we will provide you with a refund less the restocking fee to the same method of payment that was originally used.
> *If we cannot find a new renter, then we will not be able to refund your money as this would place the DVC owner in financial harm’s way. *The DVC points system is very complicated, which is the reason we have a final sale policy.
> If we do not find a new renter, the reservation will remain booked in your name. The DVC booking owner will not cancel it.
> If you accept these terms, we will reach out to your DVC booking owner to inquire if they are willing to accommodate. Please understand that owners choose to use our service because we take the hassle out of rentals by offering a no refund policy. While we know that this is a crucial matter to your family, we also have to maintain our contractual obligations with our owners, and they may choose not to assist.
> 
> 
> I think I will go with the partial refund option and hope that they are able to rebook with a new renter.  Thoughts?


This is the first I'm seeing anything about a partial refund? Has anyone else seen that offered before?


----------



## peaceluv&mickeymouse

New Mouse said:


> So when theme park reservations open up, who is gonna book for the renters, considering the owners are the ones getting contacted?


Why wouldn’t the renter be contacted.  I am a renter and see everything in MDE, I would expect to be contacted or have access to this system. Is their something I am missing ?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Wow that is a new spin dud he get a new attorney and a PR person ?? Doing some image control ?? Seems that ship sailed !! 
I do sincerely hope this works out for you !! I also really hope he sticks to his word this time and tries to do the right thing !! It will be a refreshing change.


----------



## Dentam

WDWEPCOT said:


> Wow that is a new spin dud he get a new attorney and a PR person ?? Doing some image control ?? Seems that ship sailed !!
> I do sincerely hope this works out for you !! I also really hope he sticks to his word this time and tries to do the right thing !! It will be a refreshing change.



I got the response from them in less than an hour which was nice.  I just emailed back and asked to go with the partial refund option.  Here's hoping my owner will be willing to rebook with a new renter and that David's can find a new renter for the reservation... fingers crossed... seems like it might be a long shot but worth a try!


----------



## Marionnette

New Mouse said:


> So when theme park reservations open up, who is gonna book for the renters, considering the owners are the ones getting contacted?


What makes you think that “renters” would not be contacted? My daughter and her friends are going in September. She got the email and she’s not on my DVC membership and goes by her married name. As far as DVC is concerned, she is my guest just like any renter would be.


----------



## New Mouse

peaceluv&mickeymouse said:


> Why wouldn’t the renter be contacted.  I am a renter and see everything in MDE, I would expect to be contacted or have access to this system. Is their something I am missing ?




Dunno...I am an owner and received the reservation email...first chance to book yada yada


----------



## FreeTime

What are the odds though that it will be able to be re-rented with the ticket purchase restrictions?


----------



## Marionnette

Dentam said:


> I emailed David's this morning about my Labor Day week trip and let them know that I am not comfortable traveling to a tourist destination before a vaccine is available.  They responded promptly with these options:
> 
> As the Disney Vacation Club resorts are officially open during your stay, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation.
> Although the contract will have been fulfilled, we are committed to going above and beyond in offering you the following option.
> What we can offer is to attempt to re-rent your reservation. We will be responsible for trying to find another renter for this reservation. If we are successful, then we can offer you the following compensation:
> 100% of your funds, in the form of a Travel Credit. The Travel Credit is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking) or Adventures by Disney
> Or
> A partial refund. There will be a restocking fee of _$3.00 per point_, which is used to cover the costs of the fees, workforce, and the use of our resources to advertise the reservation. Once the new renter pays for their booking, we will provide you with a refund less the restocking fee to the same method of payment that was originally used.
> *If we cannot find a new renter, then we will not be able to refund your money as this would place the DVC owner in financial harm’s way. *The DVC points system is very complicated, which is the reason we have a final sale policy.
> If we do not find a new renter, the reservation will remain booked in your name. The DVC booking owner will not cancel it.
> If you accept these terms, we will reach out to your DVC booking owner to inquire if they are willing to accommodate. Please understand that owners choose to use our service because we take the hassle out of rentals by offering a no refund policy. While we know that this is a crucial matter to your family, we also have to maintain our contractual obligations with our owners, and they may choose not to assist.
> 
> 
> I think I will go with the partial refund option and hope that they are able to rebook with a new renter.  Thoughts?


Don’t take this the wrong way because I would be happy for you if this works out...

BUT

As an owner, I would be upset if I had to go thru changing a reservation over to a new renter because David wants to look like a hero. And he gets to keep $3/point for HIS troubles?!! What about the owner that either has to contact member services to change the names on an existing reservation or secure an entirely new reservation for him? Apparently the owner’s time has no value. SMH


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> I emailed David's this morning about my Labor Day week trip and let them know that I am not comfortable traveling to a tourist destination before a vaccine is available.  They responded promptly with these options:
> 
> As the Disney Vacation Club resorts are officially open during your stay, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation.
> Although the contract will have been fulfilled, we are committed to going above and beyond in offering you the following option.
> What we can offer is to attempt to re-rent your reservation. We will be responsible for trying to find another renter for this reservation. If we are successful, then we can offer you the following compensation:
> 100% of your funds, in the form of a Travel Credit. The Travel Credit is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking) or Adventures by Disney
> Or
> A partial refund. There will be a restocking fee of _$3.00 per point_, which is used to cover the costs of the fees, workforce, and the use of our resources to advertise the reservation. Once the new renter pays for their booking, we will provide you with a refund less the restocking fee to the same method of payment that was originally used.
> *If we cannot find a new renter, then we will not be able to refund your money as this would place the DVC owner in financial harm’s way. *The DVC points system is very complicated, which is the reason we have a final sale policy.
> If we do not find a new renter, the reservation will remain booked in your name. The DVC booking owner will not cancel it.
> If you accept these terms, we will reach out to your DVC booking owner to inquire if they are willing to accommodate. Please understand that owners choose to use our service because we take the hassle out of rentals by offering a no refund policy. While we know that this is a crucial matter to your family, we also have to maintain our contractual obligations with our owners, and they may choose not to assist.
> 
> 
> I think I will go with the partial refund option and hope that they are able to rebook with a new renter.  Thoughts?



I would take the partial refund but remember, thIs requires an owner to be willing to agree to a new rental situation.

Some will and some won’t...I have already posted that I will be one of those owners who will not because renting to a new renter puts me under a new contract with the broker, and his new terms and conditions are not something I would ever agree to.

I get you are not comfortable going, but I also think you need to be prepared that an owner will say no.

Good luck.

ETA: I see you said above you realize it is a long shot.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Availability ??? Seems to be in short supply for DVC unless a whole bunch of people cancel - I’ve been scouting to do a short trip any DVC resort slim pickins ! Someone may want to grab something already booked BUT the Owner should insist on a slice of that Fee David is charging


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> Don’t take this the wrong way because I would be happy for you if this works out...
> 
> BUT
> 
> As an owner, I would be upset if I had to go thru changing a reservation over to a new renter because David wants to look like a hero. And he gets to keep $3/point for HIS troubles?!! What about the owner that either has to contact member services to change the names on an existing reservation or secure an entirely new reservation for him? Apparently the owner’s time has no value. SMH



Good point! Yeah, i wonder if he will offer any of that $3 to the owner.

The only positive I see in this is that it sounds like I will be getting my 30%.  I had written that off!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I agree I won’t go for those new terms I just can’t put myself in that position 
Remind me - what is his commission for again??


----------



## Madame

WDWEPCOT said:


> Wow that is a new spin dud he get a new attorney and a PR person ?? Doing some image control ?? Seems that ship sailed !!
> I do sincerely hope this works out for you !! I also really hope he sticks to his word this time and tries to do the right thing !! It will be a refreshing change.


As an owner, no way I would take on another replacement renter.  You know they’ll make the owner subject to the new contract.  Nuh-uh. That’d be a hard no even though I would feel bad for the renter.


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> As an owner, no way I would take on another replacement renter.  You know they’ll make the owner subject to the new contract.  Nuh-uh. That’d be a hard no even though I would feel bad for the renter.



I agree and I will feel bad if my renter can’t go and loses out.  But, that is the tough part in that because there are aspects on the owners side that a renter won’t realize...and I don’t fault them for that.

I do think Davids just opened up his business to a less than hassle free option for owners,  He has now allowed renters a way to try to make a non refundable reservation refundable or changeable.

But, hey, he may have owners willing to go for it who don’t realize there is even a new contract or are fine with doing extra work,

I can say given wait times of an hour with MS to change the name on a confirmed reservation, yeah,.,no!


----------



## Dentam

Marionnette said:


> Don’t take this the wrong way because I would be happy for you if this works out...
> 
> BUT
> 
> As an owner, I would be upset if I had to go thru changing a reservation over to a new renter because David wants to look like a hero. And he gets to keep $3/point for HIS troubles?!! What about the owner that either has to contact member services to change the names on an existing reservation or secure an entirely new reservation for him? Apparently the owner’s time has no value. SMH



How long would this take you to do?  Maybe he will offer owners part of the $3 rebooking fee for their time, who knows.  I  think I read on here that an owner said that David's gave him an extra $1 per point to make a change.


----------



## Dentam

WDWEPCOT said:


> Availability ??? Seems to be in short supply for DVC unless a whole bunch of people cancel - I’ve been scouting to do a short trip any DVC resort slim pickins ! Someone may want to grab something already booked BUT the Owner should insist on a slice of that Fee David is charging



Just saw your post after I posted above about this - I agree that the owners should be given part of the rebooking fee!


----------



## Marionnette

Dentam said:


> How long would this take you to do?  Maybe he will offer owners part of the $3 rebooking fee for their time, who knows.  I  think I read on here that an owner said that David's gave him an extra $1 per point to make a change.


A lead name change on a reservation requires member services to do it. IF you can even get thru to member services by phone, there are reports of hold times of an hour or more. And it would have to be done when member services is open. Not every owner has that kind of time to waste.


----------



## Dentam

Marionnette said:


> A lead name change on a reservation requires member services to do it. IF you can even get thru to member services by phone, there are reports of hold times of an hour or more. And it would have to be done when member services is open. Not every owner has that kind of time to waste.



Maybe if he offers you extra money you would be more amenable to using an hour of your time to help a renter out?  Anyway, I'm hoping my owner will be open to helping.


----------



## Marionnette

Dentam said:


> Maybe if he offers you extra money you would be more amenable to using an hour of your time to help a renter out?  Anyway, I'm hoping my owner will be open to helping.


Everybody has his price. Mine would be $3/point.

ETA: It’s an hour wait on hold. It takes multiple attempts to even get thru to be placed in the queue. The phone lines are a mess.


----------



## Amymouse13

I get folks assume you have to accept his new terms by changing the names like this essentially subletting option where David gets $3/point... But seems you could argue just changing names to new renters is a mere modification of original contract and original terms still apply?

Btw anyone know if you can get refund on tickets?  I saw maybe disney changed tune on park tickets??


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> I get folks assume you have to accept his new terms by changing the names like this essentially subletting option where David gets $3/point... But seems you could argue just changing names to new renters is a mere modification of original contract and original terms still apply?
> 
> Btw anyone know if you can get refund on tickets?  I saw maybe disney changed tune on park tickets??



You could, but given his track record, some may not want to,  I also doubt he will be marketing confirmed reservation but ask the owner to cancel and offer points up for rent,

I am going to add too that right now, with this new reservation system into the parks, there is no guarantee you will get in every day of the trip,

The rental market could be depressed. But hey, if any owner wants to agree to changes, they absolutely can.  But I also think renters who are told no, when it is a choice not to go, should not be upset that their owner is making a choice to say no to altering  the agreement.


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> But I also think renters who are told no, when it is a choice not to go, should not be upset that their owner is making a choice to say no to altering the agreement.



I will not be upset if my owner says no.  Just hoping they will be willing to help out since renters are otherwise either going to lose all of their money or feel obligated to travel to a tourist site during a global pandemic.


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> I will not be upset if my owner says no.  Just hoping they will be willing to help out since renters are otherwise either going to lose all of their money or feel obligated to travel to a tourist site during a global pandemic.



It seems like you have the right attitude! Good luck and I’ll just add  your owner is more flexible then me!


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> It seems like you have the right attitude! Good luck and I’ll just add  your owner is more flexible then me!



Thanks!  I am praying you aren't my owner!


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> Thanks!  I am praying you aren't my owner!



I am definitely not! So, your chances just went up!

ETA: I did post that I am willing to let Davids give my renter, if I am asked, the rest of the money I am owed to end the deal, which he could use to offer the renter a voucher for 50%


----------



## Grnl706

Amymouse13 said:


> I get folks assume you have to accept his new terms by changing the names like this essentially subletting option where David gets $3/point... But seems you could argue just changing names to new renters is a mere modification of original contract and original terms still apply?


He didn't mention any of the other changes that are included in the voucher that "fixed" the old contract (in his favor). So I would read this as the partial refund option keeps the original contract terms.


----------



## Sandisw

Grnl706 said:


> He didn't mention any of the other changes that are included in the voucher that "fixed" the old contract (in his favor). So I would read this as the partial refund option keeps the original contract terms.



But it doesn’t because the new renter signs a new rental agreement with the owner,  The owner will get anew agreement with the new renters names,

That new rental agreement with the new renter has information about an owners responsibility of what happens if there is an issue that is the owners fault. 

It also says that a closure would require the owner to refund what has been paid. So, that new language is part of the new contracts with this new renter,

So, there really is no way to rent points to someone else that doesn’t involve documents with different terms.


----------



## Grnl706

Sandisw said:


> But it doesn’t because the new renter signs a new rental agreement with the owner,  The owner will get anew agreement with the new renters names,
> 
> That new rental agreement with the new renter has information about an owners responsibility of what happens if there is an issue that is the owners fault.
> 
> It also says that a closure would require the owner to refund what has been paid. So, that new language is part of the new contracts with this new renter,
> 
> So, there really is no way to rent points to someone else that doesn’t involve documents with different terms.


Sorry I was thinking as a renter (I'm not an owner).


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> But it doesn’t because the new renter signs a new rental agreement with the owner,  The owner will get anew agreement with the new renters names,
> 
> That new rental agreement with the new renter has information about an owners responsibility of what happens if there is an issue that is the owners fault.
> 
> It also says that a closure would require the owner to refund what has been paid. So, that new language is part of the new contracts with this new renter,
> 
> So, there really is no way to rent points to someone else that doesn’t involve documents with different terms.


So  under the new contracts if another pandemic hits and the owner does not refund the money does the renter have to sue the owner since the contracts  state the owner is liable?


----------



## Marionnette

Bearval said:


> So  under the new contracts if another pandemic hits and the owner does not refund the money does the renter have to sue the owner since the contracts  state the owner is liable?


Under the new owner’s contract, a force majeure results in the renter getting a voucher and the owner must either agree to re-rent their points or return any monies already received from David’s.


----------



## Bearval

Marionnette said:


> Under the new owner’s contract, a force majeure results in the renter getting a voucher and the owner must either agree to re-rent their points or return any monies already received from David’s.


I think the 25% finders fee for getting a renter is outrageous for the work and liability the owners accept with the new contracts and the lack of work on David's part.


----------



## Marionnette

Bearval said:


> I think the 25% finders fee for getting a renter is outrageous for the work and liability the owners accept with the new contracts and the lack of work on David's part.


Agreed.


----------



## Dentam

Bearval said:


> I think the 25% finders fee for getting a renter is outrageous for the work and liability the owners accept with the new contracts and the lack of work on David's part.



I think everyone here is assuming that David's will be keeping the $3 per point.  He could be asking for that in order to give the owner money for their time spent making any changes.


----------



## 5kidsmommy

I have a question about upcoming stays. We rented points through David's. We still plan on going since it's in September. Yesterday I received an email stating there was a new reservation system and since I had tickets I would be priority. I'm wondering about the wording since it didn't say I had an onsite hotel stay. I'm just curious if our owner got an email about the stay. Have owners who are renting points received emails about onsite stays?


----------



## Bearval

Dentam said:


> I think everyone here is assuming that David's will be keeping the $3 per point.  He could be asking for that in order to give the owner money for their time spent making any changes.


I think you are giving him too much credit considering his recent actions


----------



## Dentam

Bearval said:


> I think you are giving him too much credit considering his recent actions



Well, he seems to have been making some changes for the better as time goes on, so you never know.


----------



## Marionnette

Dentam said:


> I think everyone here is assuming that David's will be keeping the $3 per point.  He could be asking for that in order to give the owner money for their time spent making any changes.


I think you’re assuming too much. The email you posted said:

A partial refund. There will be a restocking fee of _$3.00 per point_, which is used to cover the costs of the fees, workforce, and the use of our resources to advertise the reservation.​
Nothing mentioned about compensating the owner for their efforts. And IMO, David’s should be charging a flat fee for”restocking” given that it takes the same amount of effort to rebook a 50-point reservation as it does a 500-point reservation...and that fee should go directly to the owner who is the one actually putting in all of the effort.


----------



## Dentam

Marionnette said:


> I think you’re assuming too much. The email you posted said:
> ​A partial refund. There will be a restocking fee of _$3.00 per point_, which is used to cover the costs of the fees, workforce, and the use of our resources to advertise the reservation.​
> Nothing mentioned about compensating the owner for their efforts. And IMO, David’s should be charging a flat fee for”restocking” given that it takes the same amount of effort to rebook a 50-point reservation as it does a 500-point reservation...and that fee should go directly to the owner who is the one actually putting in all of the effort.



Very good point about the flat fee!  I realize what it said in the email, but with the rate he has been making changes, he could still offer an owner money for their time.  Probably giving him too much credit there as you and others have said though.


----------



## CarolMN

Just an FYI   - There is no need to actually call MS and wait on hold to change the name on a reservation.  This can easily be accomplished via an email.  It might take a few days, but if the reservation isn't for a few months, this shouldn't be a problem.   IMO, not wanting to call MS is not a good reason for refusing to help a renter in the situation @Dentam  described..

I get why an owner may not want to accept the new owner's contract (if that's still a requirement).  David may be willing to keep the original contract criteria for these situations.  I'd ask and make the name change contingent on that.


----------



## garanorymom

Dentam said:


> Maybe if he offers you extra money you would be more amenable to using an hour of your time to help a renter out?  Anyway, I'm hoping my owner will be open to helping.


For me as an owner it would not be the time. I would actually be happy to help. BUT I am terrified of the new contract. I have always used David. I have never rented on my own. I am sitting on about 300 Beach Club and Poly points I will need to rent in 2021–but I can’t do it with the new contract. I can’t risk actually losing the points and owing money for a new room too.


----------



## Sandisw

5kidsmommy said:


> I have a question about upcoming stays. We rented points through David's. We still plan on going since it's in September. Yesterday I received an email stating there was a new reservation system and since I had tickets I would be priority. I'm wondering about the wording since it didn't say I had an onsite hotel stay. I'm just curious if our owner got an email about the stay. Have owners who are renting points received emails about onsite stays?



I got one for my own August  stay.  But I didn’t get a second one even though I have a rental during that same month.


----------



## Sandisw

garanorymom said:


> For me as an owner it would not be the time. I would actually be happy to help. BUT I am terrified of the new contract. I have always used David. I have never rented on my own. I am sitting on about 300 Beach Club and Poly points I will need to rent in 2021–but I can’t do it with the new contract. I can’t risk actually losing the points and owing money for a new room too.



That is where I am at and why I said if I am contacted, the only option I am willing to do is agree to give up the rest of what I am owed so the renter has something, providing I am let out of the contract, can cancel, and walk away with what I was paid, and my points, including taking them back in holding status. 

Now, I am not sure if the broker would take me up on this or even bring it back to the renter...but given resorts and parks will be open during the reservation, I think that is fair solution.

I am still hopeful though that the family I rented to will be going and this is all moot in my situation.


----------



## lawboy2001

Marionnette said:


> A lead name change on a reservation requires member services to do it. IF you can even get thru to member services by phone, there are reports of hold times of an hour or more. And it would have to be done when member services is open. Not every owner has that kind of time to waste.


Is there a reason this cannot be done by email?


----------



## Marionnette

lawboy2001 said:


> Is there a reason this cannot be done by email?


Email can take anywhere from a single day to over a week for a response. It’s better than making multiple attempts to connect with MS by phone (for the owner) but David and his new renter would have to wait patiently for that change.


----------



## lawboy2001

Marionnette said:


> Email can take anywhere from a single day to over a week for a response. It’s better than making multiple attempts to connect with MS by phone (for the owner) but David and his new renter would have to wait patiently for that change.



Then they'll have to wait.  Far better than being told the owner is unwilling to rebook a new renter because of the invalid excuse that an hour on hold with MS is too much work.  Just send an email and when MS responds, they respond.


----------



## Marionnette

lawboy2001 said:


> Then they'll have to wait.  Far better than being told the owner is unwilling to rebook a new renter because of the invalid excuse that an hour on hold with MS is too much work.  Just send an email and when MS responds, they respond.


I don’t find the “excuse” to be invalid. Not everyone likes to deal with email correspondence. Heck, a lot of owners couldn’t even tell you where to find the email link on the member website. When you ask someone for a favor, you don’t get to dictate how they accomplish it. If an owner doesn’t want to be bothered with changing names on a reservation they did for David’s, they don’t have to. It’s not in their intermediary agreement that they must.


----------



## tch121

I am outraged. I reached out to David’s in March and April asking to reschedule my Aulani trip for this June.  I got the canned we will get to you email in March and nothing in April. This morning I receive an email from David’s that I can reschedule up until November 30th if the owner is willing.  I gave alternative dates. I got an email back staying - oh sorry we sent that to you in error. Your reservation is for Aulani and you will only get the credit. I asked how can my contract be broken with me not getting a refund and they responded it is in my best interest to take the refund (3 party non-refundable, no modification or cancellation agreement). Really?! So not providing a room isn’t cancellation?  I’ll continue my credit card dispute I started when I didn’t hear back in April.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I know that I can’t be on the phone at work for hours on end for personal business and I also don’t always have time to devout to trying to get ahold of a business before they close when I get home - there are times I work 12 hour days and have other duties I must address at home - so understanding that not everyone has the time to spend what could be hours to contact MS to do a favor that you more than likely are not getting paid for in my opinion is a bug request - I think Owners should be allowed to do the request any way they can IF they agree to do said request.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I hope you win !! My rental was in Aulani his response to me was they were to busy with WDW to address Aulani - they weren’t too busy to take my money !! I wish you the best of luck as Hawaii looks to remain on lockdown for some time to come 
He never addressed me after his flat NO and never offered the voucher and as far as I know never responded to Chase


----------



## Sandisw

lawboy2001 said:


> Then they'll have to wait.  Far better than being told the owner is unwilling to rebook a new renter because of the invalid excuse that an hour on hold with MS is too much work.  Just send an email and when MS responds, they respond.



With all due respect, if resort is open...especially if the parks are too..then any action by the owner to refuse a change IS valid, including not wanting to change renters.

When resorts are closed, whole other ball game.  Renters making a choice not to go when what they paid for is available, it’s on them and  It’s unfair to criticize an owner who decides not to alter things.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Aulani I don’t believe is opening


----------



## lawboy2001

WDWEPCOT said:


> I know that I can’t be on the phone at work for hours on end for personal business and I also don’t always have time to devout to trying to get ahold of a business before they close when I get home - there are times I work 12 hour days and have other duties I must address at home - so understanding that not everyone has the time to spend what could be hours to contact MS to do a favor that you more than likely are not getting paid for in my opinion is a bug request - I think Owners should be allowed to do the request any way they can IF they agree to do said request.



SO SEND MS AN EMAIL.   It's 2020!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you for shouting 
I was just commenting as the discussion was about calling versus emailing no need to be so rude


----------



## lawboy2001

Sandisw said:


> With all due respect, if resort is open...especially if the parks are too..then any action by the owner to refuse a change IS valid, including not wanting to change renters.
> 
> When resorts are closed, whole other ball game.  Renters making a choice not to go when what they paid for is available, it’s on them and  It’s unfair to criticize an owner who decides not to alter things.



Absolutely.  I was not arguing that owners should feel obligated make any changes when the resorts are open.   I was addressing posts in which posters justified their unwillingness to make any changes based on the inconvenience of waiting on hold for MS for a long time, such as an hour.  

In fact, no one needs to wait on hold for MS to make a change -- they can spend 5 minutes drafting and sending an email.    

To which someone actually responded -- Oh I maybe I don't like email.

 Give me a break!!  We're all spending hours on these boards posting emailed comments!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I know when David’s sends request they have clearly stated in my email request to call MS - David’s does not want to wait days for Owners to take care of what they are requesting them to do - something that would need to be addressed with David


----------



## Sandisw

lawboy2001 said:


> Absolutely.  I was not arguing that owners should feel obligated make any changes when the resorts are open.   I was addressing posts in which posters justified their unwillingness to make any changes based on the inconvenience of waiting on hold for MS for a long time, such as an hour.
> 
> In fact, no one needs to wait on hold for MS to make a change -- they can spend 5 minutes drafting and sending an email.
> 
> To which someone actually responded -- Oh I maybe I don't like email.
> 
> Give me a break!!  We're all spending hours on these boards posting emailed comments!



I think it was your use of the term invalid for me.  But, I get what you are saying.  An owner who is comfortable doing it, definitely has an option other than a long hold as they  can send an email and tell the renters and David’s it would take time!

But, any owners who simply say not interested in doing either doesn't have to justify or explain why.


----------



## Marionnette

.


lawboy2001 said:


> Absolutely.  I was not arguing that owners should feel obligated make any changes when the resorts are open.   I was addressing posts in which posters justified their unwillingness to make any changes based on the inconvenience of waiting on hold for MS for a long time, such as an hour.
> 
> In fact, no one needs to wait on hold for MS to make a change -- they can spend 5 minutes drafting and sending an email.
> 
> To which someone actually responded -- Oh I maybe I don't like email.
> 
> Give me a break!!  We're all spending hours on these boards posting emailed comments!


These are message board comments, not emails.

Not everyone is comfortable using the email process. It’s not like composing an email from your gmail account. You have to be logged in to your online DVC account. You have to know where to look for the “Contact Us” link on the website. Then you can find the secure email page. Once there, you’re limited to the number of characters in the message. It’s more like emailing a business thru their contact page. And while millennials are at ease with this, there are older people who either don’t trust it or just feel more comfortable using the phone. I know a lot of owners who don’t use the website for anything.


----------



## lovethesun12

garanorymom said:


> For me as an owner it would not be the time. I would actually be happy to help. BUT I am terrified of the new contract. I have always used David. I have never rented on my own. I am sitting on about 300 Beach Club and Poly points I will need to rent in 2021–but I can’t do it with the new contract. I can’t risk actually losing the points and owing money for a new room too.


I wouldn't if I were you either, you can rent them with your own contract being specific there are no refunds. But this is also the exact reason I would never rent direct.


----------



## Dentam

Marionnette said:


> Email can take anywhere from a single day to over a week for a response. It’s better than making multiple attempts to connect with MS by phone (for the owner) but David and his new renter would have to wait patiently for that change.



My reservation is over 3 months from now, so waiting days or over a week should not be an issue for David's or the new renter, if he does find one.



Marionnette said:


> These are message board comments, not emails.



I think he was referring to the emails from David's that have been copied and pasted into this thread, showing that the people commenting on this thread do in fact know how to and are comfortable using email to communicate with David's.  Seems they would also be comfortable emailing MS then...

I know many of you are mad at David's and have your mind set that you will do nothing to help him out.  So maybe don't think of it as helping him, think of it as helping a fellow Disney fan caught in the same crazy situation that everyone is in right now - dealing with a global pandemic that no one saw coming when we booked months ago.


----------



## garanorymom

lovethesun12 said:


> I wouldn't if I were you either, you can rent them with your own contract being specific there are no refunds. But this is also the exact reason I would never rent direct.


I think the problem will be that most owners will no longer be willing to use a broker.


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> My reservation is over 3 months from now, so waiting days or over a week should not be an issue for David's or the new renter, if he does find one.
> 
> 
> 
> I think he was referring to the emails from David's that have been copied and pasted into this thread, showing that the people commenting on this thread do in fact know how to and are comfortable using email to communicate with David's.  Seems they would also be comfortable emailing MS then...
> 
> I know many of you are mad at David's and have your mind set that you will do nothing to help him out.  So maybe don't think of it as helping him, think of it as helping a fellow Disney fan caught in the same crazy situation that everyone is in right now - dealing with a global pandemic that no one saw coming when we booked months ago.



Well, there are many renters out there whose owners offered to help them and David’s said no.

Again, I know you would love your owner to agree..and I hope you get that pixiedust,

But, you are one of the lucky ones that has gotten a response like you did,

My last thought is that I respect everyone has a different comfort level in terms of going to WDW during this time, but it still remains that a renter who doesn’t want to visit is the one defaulting and owners who choose to want the contracted honored...regardless the reason, including being unhappy with the broker,,,should be respected for that choice too

You have been clear that you get that and I certainly don’t blame any renter who asks. Worst case is you are told no!


----------



## Bearval

garanorymom said:


> For me as an owner it would not be the time. I would actually be happy to help. BUT I am terrified of the new contract. I have always used David. I have never rented on my own. I am sitting on about 300 Beach Club and Poly points I will need to rent in 2021–but I can’t do it with the new contract. I can’t risk actually losing the points and owing money for a new room too.


I think after this fiasco that owers who consistently have points year to year that they need to rent out will sell some of their contracts if they do have multiple contracts so they don't have to go thru this crap again.


----------



## Marionnette

Dentam said:


> My reservation is over 3 months from now, so waiting days or over a week should not be an issue for David's or the new renter, if he does find one.
> 
> 
> 
> I think he was referring to the emails from David's that have been copied and pasted into this thread, showing that the people commenting on this thread do in fact know how to and are comfortable using email to communicate with David's.
> 
> I know many of you are mad at David's and have your mind set that you will do nothing to help him out.  So maybe don't think of it as helping him, think of it as helping a fellow Disney fan caught in the same crazy situation that everyone is in right now - dealing with a global pandemic that no one saw coming when we booked months ago.


Why didn’t you quote me completely instead of snipping just one sentence? I explained why “emailing” member services is not like composing a gmail email. But you chose to ignore that part.

I hope your owner makes it all work out for you. It will take time. The owner has to agree to do it, first. Then David’s will need to list it as a confirmed reservation on their website. Then someone has to “purchase” that reservation. Then, and only then, will the owner need to change the names. Because, as you mentioned in a PP, until a new renter can be found, the reservation will remain in your name.

In the meantime, the phone lines, chat function and email responses for member services could improve drastically. Right now, they’re a mess.


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> Why didn’t you quote me completely instead of snipping just one sentence? I explained why “emailing” member services is not like composing a gmail email. But you chose to ignore that part.
> 
> I hope your owner makes it all work out for you. It will take time. The owner has to agree to do it, first. Then David’s will need to list it as a confirmed reservation on their website. Then someone has to “purchase” that reservation. Then, and only then, will the owner need to change the names. Because, as you mentioned in a PP, until a new renter can be found, the reservation will remain in your name.
> 
> In the meantime, the phone lines, chat function and email responses for member services could improve drastically. Right now, they’re a mess.



Not to mention, this new park reservation system. That is going to play a role in this broker finding renters right now..I think!


----------



## Dentam

Marionnette said:


> Why didn’t you quote me completely instead of snipping just one sentence? I explained why “emailing” member services is not like composing a gmail email. But you chose to ignore that part.



It wasn't some sinister motive I had, jeez.  It was the line that caught my eye and I was in a hurry.  I'm done with this thread  now unfortunately.  There's a lot of bitterness here and lack of empathy for renters. 

Take care, all!


----------



## Marionnette

Dentam said:


> It wasn't some sinister motive I had, jeez.  It was the line that caught my eye and I was in a hurry.  I'm done with this thread  now unfortunately.  There's a lot of bitterness here and lack of empathy for renters.
> 
> Take care, all!


And there’s a lack of understanding, or any desire to understand, on the part of some renters. When you lack background, you can’t comprehend why something that appears to be so simple is actually rather complicated. But if you would prefer to see what I’ve tried to explain about DVC as being anti-David’s or uncooperative and unsympathetic to renters, then that’s on you.

You’ve never tried to log onto the crappy DVC website only to get the dreaded 7 dwarfs “We’re working on it” screen...day after day for a week. Or made over 300 attempts to call member services before you got connected to an hour-long queue...and then got disconnected when a CM picked up. Or sent a message thru their secure email system without getting a response because somehow it disappeared into the ether.

But I still wish you success because I feel bad for anyone who is caught up in this mess. No one should feel compelled to vacation some place where they don’t think they will be safe. And it would suck to lose the money you spent renting thru David’s.


----------



## Amymouse13

I do think if David's attempts to appease folks who don't wish to go that will hasten their demise... At that point they are just arbitrarily following a contract.  Issuing vouchers for everyone and anyone undermines an already flawed idea...  Disney lodging closed one situation.  Lodging open was agreed to in contract.  Not that I'm trying to get a voucher... We did chargeback since in April it was closed.


----------



## Madame

Amymouse13 said:


> I do think if David's attempts to appease folks who don't wish to go that will hasten their demise... At that point they are just arbitrarily following a contract.  Issuing vouchers for everyone and anyone undermines an already flawed idea...  Disney lodging closed one situation.  Lodging open was agreed to in contract.  Not that I'm trying to get a voucher... We did chargeback since in April it was closed.


Totally agreed.  They are opening Pandora’s box & setting a precedent that they will regret given how fast news travels...  There was a thread here a year or so ago about David’s and a renter looking to get a refund- maybe his wife was expecting unexpectedly (something like that) and it got heated because changes/problems/aggro  are not what owners sign up for and “pay” David’s for, & that was only one client...


----------



## AquaDame

I wonder if he is trying to be more flexible with renters due to the chargebacks... if he can keep $3 per point or delay people submitting for that by offering a voucher "if he can find a different renter" that would stave off some of his losses. 

I thought about sending them an email when I saw a PP get that response for an autumn stay... but at this point I'm kind of intrigued to see what this park reservation system looks like. Part of me is now MORE interested in going to see how it shakes out. Honestly if I wasn't terrified of catching this virus I'd definitely be going just to experience it. My husband is still a solid no though, so I'm just delaying the inevitable. Our tickets expiration was pushed back to next year but we already have plans with our 10th wedding anniversary. Pushing it out to 2021 instead probably isn't going to be in the cards.


----------



## Grnl706

AquaDame said:


> I wonder if he is trying to be more flexible with renters due to the chargebacks... if he can keep $3 per point or delay people submitting for that by offering a voucher "if he can find a different renter" that would stave off some of his losses.



That's my thinking too. He realizes that people aren't falling for the voucher and needs some other way to keep peoples cash. He has to get cash from someone else to be able to even pay you back at the reduced amount. I just don't see him sharing that $3 per point with the owner. I think he's losing too many clients on both sides.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

A renter shouldn’t be able to win a chargeback when the parks and especially resort are open. Their only chance at getting money back would be some sort of insurance that allowed them to cancel, and that doesn’t hit David’s in the wallet so it shouldn’t motivate vouchers.

I think it’s some attempt at “following your heart” or whatever he said to owners but like pointed out, it just makes a lot of us uneasy because of his willingness to go off contract like that.

I will say, we gave opportunity for them to prevent our chargeback (closed resort not a future one) by refunding even just the portion they theoretically should have been holding, but they didn’t seem very interested so .


----------



## Bearval

Grnl706 said:


> That's my thinking too. He realizes that people aren't falling for the voucher and needs some other way to keep peoples cash. He has to get cash from someone else to be able to even pay you back at the reduced amount. I just don't see him sharing that $3 per point with the owner. I think he's losing too many clients on both sides.


IMHO I get the feeling he values and needs to cater to the renters more that the owners since they are paying customers.   He must feel there are always going to be owners willing to rent points to him instead of letting them expire.


----------



## MaxsDad

As someone who is both a member and someone who rented points from David's for an upcoming trip in October I can see both sides of it.  We had no points left for the year because of trips originally planned in April and June that were eventually cancelled.  FWIW I didn't even consider contacting David's to see if we could cancel because of the contract, because the parks are open, and because of the position it would put the owner in. But if I could cancel it I would for lots of reasons.


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> Not to mention, this new park reservation system. That is going to play a role in this broker finding renters right now..I think!



very true.  right now if somebody doesn’t yet have a park ticket they can’t get one. I’m not going to book a place esoecially under a no refund clause if I dont know I can get a park ticket And reservation. So right now his market is likely only people with passes or old tickets.


----------



## Bearval

Krandor said:


> very true.  right now if somebody doesn’t yet have a park ticket they can’t get one. I’m not going to book a place esoecially under a no refund clause if I dont know I can get a park ticket And reservation. So right now his market is likely only people with passes or old tickets.


This may actually play into David's favor for all of his customers who are holding vouchers for trips that were canceled in March, April and May since they most likely had already bought tickets.   What he may lack is cash to pay owners for points to book these trips and available rooms to book


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

As an owner with points that were restocked I might get into this idea that someone (David) owes me an additional $3/point for my effort.


Dentam said:


> Very good point about the flat fee!  I realize what it said in the email, but with the rate he has been making changes, he could still offer an owner money for their time.  Probably giving him too much credit there as you and others have said though.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I don't understand the reasoning that David can somehow force anyone into a new contract.  Either the contract you signed and agreed to is over in which case you don't have to sign a new one or the contract you signed is not over in which case a new contract without some other payment (consideration) to you seems really pointless.   

I don't see any reason to agree to a new contract and I don't see any way it can be forced on you.


garanorymom said:


> For me as an owner it would not be the time. I would actually be happy to help. BUT I am terrified of the new contract. I have always used David. I have never rented on my own. I am sitting on about 300 Beach Club and Poly points I will need to rent in 2021–but I can’t do it with the new contract. I can’t risk actually losing the points and owing money for a new room too.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Dentam said:


> I think everyone here is assuming that David's will be keeping the $3 per point.  He could be asking for that in order to give the owner money for their time spent making any changes.






dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I don't understand the reasoning that David can somehow force anyone into a new contract.  Either the contract you signed and agreed to is over in which case you don't have to sign a new one or the contract you signed is not over in which case a new contract without some other payment (consideration) to you seems really pointless.
> 
> I don't see any reason to agree to a new contract and I don't see any way it can be forced on you.



David's is "forcing" many into new contracts by holding their money and vacations hostage.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I am not sure I understand how David is holding any owner's vacation hostage.

If there is not a contract with an owner then (assuming your fact that David is holding owner money) then David is breaching the contract and like every contract that is breached there is a remedy in addition to on line posting.  If you don't like the remedy then the time to have decided that was prior to signing.  People can ASSUME the other party is honorable and will do "the right thing" even if the right thing is arguable.

If there is a contract, for example having gotten 70%, a request to re-rent points and no payment of the 30% then according to your stipulations there is actually a breach by David and the contract is over and you have remedies.

But you can't play both sides

For a renter charge back is the answer and it has been working.  If someone CHOOSES to take the voucher then then that is a deliberate choice to change the contract.



Grumpy by Birth said:


> View attachment 498167
> 
> 
> David's is "forcing" many into new contracts by holding their money and vacations hostage.


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> Totally agreed.  They are opening Pandora’s box & setting a precedent that they will regret given how fast news travels...  There was a thread here a year or so ago about David’s and a renter looking to get a refund- maybe his wife was expecting unexpectedly (something like that) and it got heated because changes/problems/aggro  are not what owners sign up for and “pay” David’s for, & that was only one client...



I second this.  I get that this may be unprecedented, but as you said, their are renters who


AquaDame said:


> I wonder if he is trying to be more flexible with renters due to the chargebacks... if he can keep $3 per point or delay people submitting for that by offering a voucher "if he can find a different renter" that would stave off some of his losses.
> 
> I thought about sending them an email when I saw a PP get that response for an autumn stay... but at this point I'm kind of intrigued to see what this park reservation system looks like. Part of me is now MORE interested in going to see how it shakes out. Honestly if I wasn't terrified of catching this virus I'd definitely be going just to experience it. My husband is still a solid no though, so I'm just delaying the inevitable. Our tickets expiration was pushed back to next year but we already have plans with our 10th wedding anniversary. Pushing it out to 2021 instead probably isn't going to be in the cards.



I think it is very possible he has decided to do that  My thoughts stem that as a broker, he can absolutely offer his renters the option to allow it to be rented out if he wants to do that,

I just don’t agree that with resorts and the parks open, an owner should have to defend why they want to see the contract honored, and not be accused of having no empathy for a renter,

If a renter can make the choice not to go, then they should understand and respect an owner who doesn't want to make changes, regardless of how easy it would be,

I absolutely think if David’s is now willing to contact an owner on behalf of a renter who is apprehensive, more power to him, and I don’t fault any renter for trying.

ETA.: I think renters forget sometimes that owners give up $4.5 to David’s to not have to change renters and dates. I am being paid $14.50 a point vs, the $17/point I could have gotten on my own.  

So, if in this model David’s wants to let renters out, then let’s see if he agrees to give up any of his commission and pays the owner more for the change.


----------



## Krandor

Sandisw said:


> I second this.  I get that this may be unprecedented, but as you said, their are renters who
> 
> 
> I think it is very possible he has decided to do that  My thoughts stem that as a broker, he can absolutely offer his renters the option to allow it to be rented out if he wants to do that,
> 
> I just don’t agree that with resorts and the parks open, an owner should have to defend why they want to see the contract honored, and not be accused of having no empathy for a renter,
> 
> If a renter can make the choice not to go, then they should understand and respect an owner who doesn't want to make changes, regardless of how easy it would be,
> 
> I absolutely think if David’s is now willing to contact an owner on behalf of a renter who is apprehensive, more power to him, and I don’t fault any renter for trying.



you are right. An owner has a contract and doesn’t have to do anything not in there if they dont want to.

I can’t help but think that is David hadn’t burned so much goodwill with owners earlier that they would be more willing to help now.

the shutdown was almost easier. Resort closed not many options. This new situation of renters who don’t want to come is trickier and now he almost needs owners to try to help but it seems many have lost trust in him with how he treated the owners during the shutdown. He made his bed.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> I second this.  I get that this may be unprecedented, but as you said, their are renters who
> 
> 
> I think it is very possible he has decided to do that  My thoughts stem that as a broker, he can absolutely offer his renters the option to allow it to be rented out if he wants to do that,
> 
> I just don’t agree that with resorts and the parks open, an owner should have to defend why they want to see the contract honored, and not be accused of having no empathy for a renter,
> 
> If a renter can make the choice not to go, then they should understand and respect an owner who doesn't want to make changes, regardless of how easy it would be,
> 
> I absolutely think if David’s is now willing to contact an owner on behalf of a renter who is apprehensive, more power to him, and I don’t fault any renter for trying.


What I dont think anyone other than the owners are taking into account is that the points have an expiration date and are subject to banking dates and holding periods. If a renter cancels the points could be after the banking period and if it is a late cancelation it could put the points into holding.   This would not be what I signed up for if I chose to rent my points out. In addition to this even if it is not past either date it could be after my home resort booking advantage which would make getting a new renter harder and no premium for renting points since it would be under 7 months.


----------



## Sandisw

Bearval said:


> IMHO I get the feeling he values and needs to cater to the renters more that the owners since they are paying customers.   He must feel there are always going to be owners willing to rent points to him instead of letting them expire.



Except, without owners, he has nothing to sell those paying customers.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> ....I absolutely think if David’s is now willing to contact an owner on behalf of a renter who is apprehensive, more power to him, and I don’t fault any renter for trying.



Frustrating slow that he’s willing to do it now though, with all the botched communication throughout the actual closure that prevented willing parties from being able to move reservations. I’m annoyed on behalf of those who wanted to move reservations that now he’s going against contract to do it, but wasn’t doing it promptly for whatever reason when people were losing their vacations through no choice of their own.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> Except, without owners, he has nothing to sell those paying customers.


True but it appears with his current actions he seems to think he will still be able to get owners to rent him points to use


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Krandor said:


> you are right. An owner has a contract and doesn’t have to do anything not in there if they dont want to.
> 
> I can’t help but think that is David hadn’t burned so much goodwill with owners earlier that they would be more willing to help now.
> 
> the shutdown was almost easier. Resort closed not many options. This new situation of renters who don’t want to come is trickier and now he almost needs owners to try to help but it seems many have lost trust in him with how he treated the owners during the shutdown. He made his bed.



I think the willingness to go against contract has the potential to backfire big time. Why not for the family who now can’t travel for personal reasons after the pandemic ends? Are they going to get a voucher option? Are his non refundable contracts going to be “non refundable” in the future, when people realize they’re non refundable in name alone?

Odd time to choose to be flexible considering the actions taken during the closure. Although I imagine it’s because they see the end of the closure and what the damage is now, and they think they’re able to hand out vouchers for customer satisfaction now without too much harm. So maybe a good sign overall for those who are holding vouchers.


----------



## Marionnette

Bearval said:


> True but it appears with his current actions he seems to think he wi ati be able to get owners to rent him points to use


He had trouble getting enough owners to supply points before this happened. I don’t think he’s going to see owners clamoring to rent thru him in the future. After reading firsthand reports of his opinion of “lazy” owners that use his service, it would be a cold day in hell before he would get an opportunity to make money off of my points.


----------



## Krandor

Marionnette said:


> He had trouble getting enough owners to supply points before this happened. I don’t think he’s going to see owners clamoring to rent thru him in the future. After reading firsthand reports of his opinion of “lazy” owners that use his service, it would be a cold day in hell before he would get an opportunity to make money off of my points.



lazy owners?  Huh?  Isn’t the point of using a service like David’s is so the owners have To do very little work? Isn’t that why he gets a commission to make it easy and lazy for the owners?


----------



## Sandisw

Krandor said:


> you are right. An owner has a contract and doesn’t have to do anything not in there if they dont want to.
> 
> I can’t help but think that is David hadn’t burned so much goodwill with owners earlier that they would be more willing to help now.
> 
> the shutdown was almost easier. Resort closed not many options. This new situation of renters who don’t want to come is trickier and now he almost needs owners to try to help but it seems many have lost trust in him with how he treated the owners during the shutdown. He made his bed.



Very true, and I think that if he is going to try, hopefully he is open to owners ideas on ways to limit the losses, if changing the reservation or taking on a new rental is not something they want to do.


----------



## Marionnette

Krandor said:


> lazy owners?  Huh?  Isn’t the point of using a service like David’s is so the owners have To do very little work? Isn’t that why he gets a commission to make it easy and lazy for the owners?


I pay an accountant to do my taxes. Does that mean I’m lazy? Or if I pay a maid to clean my house, should she label me lazy? Instacart shopping for groceries instead of getting them myself...is that lazy too?

Lazy is such a demeaning term. It speaks volumes about what he thinks of owners.


----------



## Krandor

Marionnette said:


> I pay an accountant to do my taxes. Does that mean I’m lazy? Or if I pay a maid to clean my house, should she label me lazy? Instacart shopping for groceries instead of getting them myself...is that lazy too?
> 
> Lazy is such a demeaning term. It speaks volumes about what he thinks of owners.



it does. To advertise it as easy and convient for the owners and then call them lazy for wanting it to be easy and convient is just crazy. That is what he sold them on.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> Frustrating slow that he’s willing to do it now though, with all the botched communication throughout the actual closure that prevented willing parties from being able to move reservations. I’m annoyed on behalf of those who wanted to move reservations that now he’s going against contract to do it, but wasn’t doing it promptly for whatever reason when people were losing their vacations through no choice of their own.



I more than 100% agree with you because from the start, with resorts closed, he should have taken the approach because I think many owners felt that closure did put them under some obligation to be involved

With resorts open, there Really is no reason to not have contracts honored,  Like I said, I don’t begrudge any renter who asks and I don’t begrudge David’s for contacting owners as some may not care.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

At this point I feel like paying him the premium for his services is kind of like paying for a house cleaning service, and when they arrive they hand you all their supplies and tell you to do it yourself.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Sandisw said:


> I more than 100% agree with you because from the start, with resorts closed, he should have taken the approach because I think many owners felt that closure did put them under some obligation to be involved
> 
> With resorts open, there Really is no reason to not have contracts honored,  Like I said, I don’t begrudge any renter who asks and I don’t begrudge David’s for contacting owners as some may not care.



I fully support owners who tell him where to go when he tries to go off contract right now. Especially ones who may have already been dealing with a reservation during the closed period.

I agree with you, as much as it sucks to feel forced into a vacation when you aren’t comfortable, there is no reason for contracts to not be honoured when everything is open. I could see why he may be more lenient during those few weeks when DVC resorts are open and parks are not, but past that I think is can of worms territory!


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> I fully support owners who tell him where to go when he tries to go off contract right now. Especially ones who may have already been dealing with a reservation during the closed period.
> 
> I agree with you, as much as it sucks to feel forced into a vacation when you aren’t comfortable, there is no reason for contracts to not be honoured when everything is open. I could see why he may be more lenient during those few weeks when DVC resorts are open and parks are not, but past that I think is can of worms territory!



And I know I am one of those owners who won’t do the things that some renters here would hope for with resorts open.

But, then again, I am also an owner willing to walk away with only 70% of what I agreed to be paid to keep the points and give my renter...if they want out..something vs losing it all.


----------



## strike4

I'm a first time renter and I'm now wondering why I would ever go the DVC route again.  I'm now stuck with a reservation when I don't feel 
comfortable and if I do, I'm not getting the experience that I paid for with the parks.  I'm now seeing horror stories about people showing up
to their resort only to have the owner renege on the room, something I didn't realize was prevalent etc...  There seems to be no way brokers, owners
or renters can win here. 

I want to add that while I'm not thrilled with my personal situation, at least I'm not a make a wish parent that had my child's vacation cancelled and may
not ever get another chance. When I think of their heartache, it puts things in perspective for me.


----------



## Krandor

strike4 said:


> I'm a first time renter and I'm now wondering why I would ever go the DVC route again.  I'm now stuck with a reservation when I don't feel
> comfortable and if I do, I'm not getting the experience that I paid for with the parks.  I'm now seeing horror stories about people showing up
> to their resort only to have the owner renege on the room, something I didn't realize was prevalent etc...  There seems to be no way brokers, owners
> or renters can win here.
> 
> I want to add that while I'm not thrilled with my personal situation, at least I'm not a make a wish parent that had my child's vacation cancelled and may
> not ever get another chance. When I think of their heartache, it puts things in perspective for me.



homedtly if you want flexibility to change dates or cancel you need to go cash.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

It is disrespectful and tells me what he thinks of me as an Owner and I can’t say here what I’d like to tell him but when if ever he contacts me I sure will 
I’m so done with him - talk about burning your bridge behind you !


----------



## 5kidsmommy

Krandor said:


> homedtly if you want flexibility to change dates or cancel you need to go cash.



Funny thing is this is actually why we rented points for this stay. We schedule specific dates knowing we never change them. That's why renting appealed to us. We knew we were locked in and that was fine. We still plan on being there in September.


----------



## Marionnette

strike4 said:


> I'm a first time renter and I'm now wondering why I would ever go the DVC route again.  I'm now stuck with a reservation when I don't feel
> comfortable and if I do, I'm not getting the experience that I paid for with the parks.  I'm now seeing horror stories about people showing up
> to their resort only to have the owner renege on the room, something I didn't realize was prevalent etc...  There seems to be no way brokers, owners
> or renters can win here.
> 
> I want to add that while I'm not thrilled with my personal situation, at least I'm not a make a wish parent that had my child's vacation cancelled and may
> not ever get another chance. When I think of their heartache, it puts things in perspective for me.


Are you renting from a broker or directly from an owner? Have you tried to reach out to them? If so, how did they respond?

I’m glad that you can put things in perspective but it’s okay to feel bad about your own situation. We humans can have more than one emotion running at the same time. We’re very complex beings. I encourage you to contact the owner or broker to see what can be done if you haven’t done so yet.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

strike4 said:


> I'm a first time renter and I'm now wondering why I would ever go the DVC route again.  I'm now stuck with a reservation when I don't feel
> comfortable and if I do, I'm not getting the experience that I paid for with the parks.  I'm now seeing horror stories about people showing up
> to their resort only to have the owner renege on the room, something I didn't realize was prevalent etc...  There seems to be no way brokers, owners
> or renters can win here.
> 
> I want to add that while I'm not thrilled with my personal situation, at least I'm not a make a wish parent that had my child's vacation cancelled and may
> not ever get another chance. When I think of their heartache, it puts things in perspective for me.



Before this we had multiple great experiences with David’s. No complaints, very easy to communicate with, everything went off without a hitch. If we had something come up in our personal lives not allowing us to travel, we had insurance that covered it.

The pandemic turned it all on its head. I am not comfortable renting points again.


----------



## Krandor

5kidsmommy said:


> Funny thing is this is actually why we rented points for this stay. We schedule specific dates knowing we never change them. That's why renting appealed to us. We knew we were locked in and that was fine. We still plan on being there in September.



mans for people in that situation a lot of Money can be saved by renting as long as something like this doesn’t happen.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I am not sure I understand how David is holding any owner's vacation hostage.
> 
> If there is not a contract with an owner then (assuming your fact that David is holding owner money) then David is breaching the contract and like every contract that is breached there is a remedy in addition to on line posting.  If you don't like the remedy then the time to have decided that was prior to signing.  People can ASSUME the other party is honorable and will do "the right thing" even if the right thing is arguable.
> 
> If there is a contract, for example having gotten 70%, a request to re-rent points and no payment of the 30% then according to your stipulations there is actually a breach by David and the contract is over and you have remedies.
> 
> But you can't play both sides
> 
> For a renter charge back is the answer and it has been working.  If someone CHOOSES to take the voucher then then that is a deliberate choice to change the contract.



I'll re-phrase...

IMO, David's is breaching the contract with owners by not paying owners the 30% that he promised to pay on the date of check-in (whether or not check-in occurred) as long as the owner didn't breach the contract by cancelling the reservation (or causing it to be cancelled due to their negligence).  Thus, he is holding the owner's money hostage unless they agree to the new contract terms.  Yes, owners have the remedy of taking legal action against David's.  But that's only necessary because he is holding their money hostage unless they agree to the new terms.

IMO, David's is also breaching the contract with renters that said they would receive their money back (no mention of a voucher) if the reservation was not provided.  He is holding 100% of their money hostage and insisting they accept a voucher under new contract terms.  Yes, renters have a remedy of pursuing charge backs (in some cases), or taking legal action against David's.  But, again, that's only necessary because he is holding their money hostage unless they agree to the new terms (one could argue that he still has their money held hostage even if they agree to the terms, since all they're getting is a voucher that may end up being worthless).

I don't see that observation as "playing both sides."  I see it as being my assessment that David's is paying neither owners nor renters the money they are due based on the contracts he entered into with them.  He's got their money and is refusing to pay either party, hence my use of the term "holding their money hostage."


----------



## strike4

Marionnette said:


> Are you renting from a broker or directly from an owner? Have you tried to reach out to them? If so, how did they respond?
> 
> I’m glad that you can put things in perspective but it’s okay to feel bad about your own situation. We humans can have more than one emotion running at the same time. We’re very complex beings. I encourage you to contact the owner or broker to see what can be done if you haven’t done so yet.



I'm renting from David's.   I have a reservation in Oct.  I haven't tried to cancel because it doesn't look like it would be any use.  I will say any other contact I have had with them
has been prompt and courteous.


----------



## Sandisw

strike4 said:


> I'm renting from David's.   I have a reservation in Oct.  I haven't tried to cancel because it doesn't look like it would be any use.  I will say any other contact I have had with them
> has been prompt and courteous.



You certainly can, as a renter, reach out about concerns, and ask for options, if any.

Right now, if you don’t go, you are out it all but even if it is a long shot you will get something back, I say try.


----------



## Amymouse13

Krandor said:


> very true.  right now if somebody doesn’t yet have a park ticket they can’t get one. I’m not going to book a place esoecially under a no refund clause if I dont know I can get a park ticket And reservation. So right now his market is likely only people with passes or old tickets.



So wait... My reservation was cancelled in April, I'm not planning to rebook anytime soon, we have about 2k worth of park tickets that Disney won't refund but they won't sell folks with a trip tickets?  If only David's had a ticket resale business... Lol
I'd much rather have my 2k back for tickets over an infinite credit from Disney...


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Amymouse13 said:


> So wait... My reservation was cancelled in April, I'm not planning to rebook anytime soon, we have about 2k worth of park tickets that Disney won't refund but they won't sell folks with a trip tickets?  If only David's had a ticket resale business... Lol
> I'd much rather have my 2k back for tickets over an infinite credit from Disney...



Are they special tickets? There have been quite a few people reporting Disney refunding tickets without hassle lately, I don’t know that they were as willing to do so a couple months ago.

In any case, you might get a better answer just talking to a different CM lol.


----------



## Amymouse13

DGsAtBLT said:


> Are they special tickets? There have been quite a few people reporting Disney refunding tickets without hassle lately, I don’t know that they were as willing to do so a couple months ago.
> 
> In any case, you might get a better answer just talking to a different CM lol.



I guess I'll trying calling... Email is just use by December or credit.  Nope just park hopper...


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Amymouse13 said:


> I guess I'll trying calling... Email is just use by December or credit.  Nope just park hopper...



Fingers crossed for you! By the way they just extended December to Sept 26 2021.


----------



## Marionnette

Amymouse13 said:


> I guess I'll trying calling... Email is just use by December or credit.  Nope just park hopper...


I just linked tickets yesterday. They won’t expire until 09/26/2021 even though my start day is in late October. I think they’re extending the valid dates for all date-based tickets to 9/26/2021. My daughter bought hers for early September of this year and her “valid thru” date is the same as mine.


----------



## Marionnette

strike4 said:


> I'm renting from David's.   I have a reservation in Oct.  I haven't tried to cancel because it doesn't look like it would be any use.  I will say any other contact I have had with them
> has been prompt and courteous.


Try. Another poster has reported that David’s offered them a choice of a voucher or a cash refund minus $3/point if the reservation can be rented out to someone else.


----------



## Madame

Marionnette said:


> Try. Another poster has reported that David’s offered them a choice of a voucher or a cash refund minus $3/point if the reservation can be rented out to someone else.


Pandora’s box...  Wouldn’t want to be David’s...


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Marionnette said:


> Try. Another poster has reported that David’s offered them a choice of a voucher or a cash refund minus $3/point if the reservation can be rented out to someone else.



Have they always offered this (the cash refund minus a fee), or were dedicated reservations strictly from owners trying to sell their own?


----------



## Marionnette

DGsAtBLT said:


> Have they always offered this (the cash refund minus a fee), or were dedicated reservations strictly from owners trying to sell their own?


I don’t know whether David’s has ever offered concessions on the “no refunds” policy...even when a hurricane disrupted travel to Central Florida. Dedicated reservations were usually owners trying to rent existing reservations for a busy time or near the end of their UY.


----------



## RachStu

5kidsmommy said:


> I have a question about upcoming stays. We rented points through David's. We still plan on going since it's in September. Yesterday I received an email stating there was a new reservation system and since I had tickets I would be priority. I'm wondering about the wording since it didn't say I had an onsite hotel stay. I'm just curious if our owner got an email about the stay. Have owners who are renting points received emails about onsite stays?



We are owners who have made reservations for David in August and September and we haven’t received any emails about tickets for those stays. I can only assume they simply go to the people listed on the booking.


----------



## Bearval

Amymouse13 said:


> So wait... My reservation was cancelled in April, I'm not planning to rebook anytime soon, we have about 2k worth of park tickets that Disney won't refund but they won't sell folks with a trip tickets?  If only David's had a ticket resale business... Lol
> I'd much rather have my 2k back for tickets over an infinite credit from Disney...


I am sure they will sell your tickets for you and give you a voucher in return.


----------



## 5kidsmommy

RachStu said:


> We are owners who have made reservations for David in August and September and we haven’t received any emails about tickets for those stays. I can only assume they simply go to the people listed on the booking.



Thank you so much for your reply. I figured we were safe since we did get an email from Disney but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on one. Your reply relieved some stress so many, many thanks. 

Now ifonly I could convince my husband to buy which was the whole point of renting points, little did any of us know what the future would hold. Oh well.


----------



## RachStu

I’m afraid I haven’t had a chance to read all of the comments on this thread, so apologies if this has already been asked. I am an owner working with David’s. I’ve got rentals booked for people in August (BLT and Aulani) and Sept (AKV). I haven’t had any communication from David’s in relation to these rentals. I imagine he is busy dealing with the ones that have occurred whilst the parks and hotels have been closed. I know that we agreed not to contact the renters directly when we signed the contract. However, as owner I do have the email address of the lead guest for each booking. I am tempted to contact them to see if they want to change the date of their reservation to later in the year (before the points expire on 30 November). Although it would take a bit of time on my part, I’d be more than happy to do it provided I still received the outstanding 30%. If the Renter wanted to change and we did make the change I’m assuming that David would be none the wiser and that I’d still get my 30% on the day the renter was due to check in. Is that correct? Do the renters have to do anything on the day of checking in to trigger the payment? Do they have to email David’s and confirm they have been able to check in or is it automatic?


----------



## Bearval

RachStu said:


> I’m afraid I haven’t had a chance to read all of the comments on this thread, so apologies if this has already been asked. I am an owner working with David’s. I’ve got rentals booked for people in August (Aulani) and Sept (WDW). I haven’t had any communication from David’s in relation to these rentals. I imagine he is busy dealing with the ones that have occurred whilst the parks and hotels have been closed. I know that we agreed not to contact the renters directly when we signed the contract. However, as owner I do have the email address of the lead guest for each booking. I am tempted to contact them to see if they want to change the date of their reservation to later in the year (before the points expire on 30 November). Although it would take a bit of time on my part, I’d be more than happy to do it provided I still received the outstanding 30%. If the Renter wanted to change and we did make the change I’m assuming that David would be none the wiser and that I’d still get my 30% on the day the renter was due to check in. Is that correct? Do the renters have to do anything on the day of checking in to trigger the payment? Do they have to email David’s and confirm they have been able to check in or is it automatic?


Well his renters would have to contact him on the date they were scheduled to check on and say they did so he will pay you the remaining 30%.    However if something happens such as a second closing they would be SOL if they wanted to do a chargeback or a voucher since they would have violated the contract by dealing directly with the owner


----------



## Sandisw

RachStu said:


> I’m afraid I haven’t had a chance to read all of the comments on this thread, so apologies if this has already been asked. I am an owner working with David’s. I’ve got rentals booked for people in August (BLT and Aulani) and Sept (AKV). I haven’t had any communication from David’s in relation to these rentals. I imagine he is busy dealing with the ones that have occurred whilst the parks and hotels have been closed. I know that we agreed not to contact the renters directly when we signed the contract. However, as owner I do have the email address of the lead guest for each booking. I am tempted to contact them to see if they want to change the date of their reservation to later in the year (before the points expire on 30 November). Although it would take a bit of time on my part, I’d be more than happy to do it provided I still received the outstanding 30%. If the Renter wanted to change and we did make the change I’m assuming that David would be none the wiser and that I’d still get my 30% on the day the renter was due to check in. Is that correct? Do the renters have to do anything on the day of checking in to trigger the payment? Do they have to email David’s and confirm they have been able to check in or is it automatic?



IMO, I would not try to do a work around David’s in this instance,  If you are willing to make adjustments for the renter and want to reach out to them to see if they want to change, then that would be okay,

If they say yes, then I would not actually make any changes without getting confirmation from David’s, with the renter included, that you all ageee to make the change,

Technically, anything you do to change or cancel a trip, triggers a refund to the renter, and makes you liable. There was a report of an owner here who reached out, renter said they wanted a change, and they contacted David’s to confirm they could do it, only to reach out to the renter shortly after to find out David’s had contacted them and shared the voucher idea and they took it.

I have an August renters at Poly and haven’t heard anything but don’t anticipate I will unless the renters reach out to David’s because they don’t want to go.  If that happens, I will share with David’s the option I am willing to do and the renter and broker can decide if it works for them...if not, then the contract will stay and I will expect full payment regardless if renters go or not.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m the Owner you mentioned 
Don’t do it !! Let this Play out - I think if you reach out to David the renter will be offered a voucher and you will be under his new terms and I would advise against going under those terms - just my opinion you need to make your own decisions but keep in mind if you change anything without David’s approval you are breaking your contract 
It seems David thinks it’s ok for him to break contracts just not any Owners


----------



## RachStu

WDWEPCOT said:


> I’m the Owner you mentioned
> Don’t do it !! Let this Play out - I think if you reach out to David the renter will be offered a voucher and you will be under his new terms and I would advise against going under those terms - just my opinion you need to make your own decisions but keep in mind if you change anything without David’s approval you are breaking your contract
> It seems David thinks it’s ok for him to break contracts just not any Owners



Thanks for sharing your experience. I was thinking of reaching out to the renter rather than David and then perhaps making a joint approach if they wanted to change their booking (one of the renters is from South Korea and I doubt will be able to, or want to, travel with the current restrictions. Perhaps it’s best to just leave things be, although I imagine that if the renter contacts David and requests a date change on the booking then David’s won’t ask me to make the change. Perhaps I’m wrong though and being unduly harsh on David’s.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

David will offer voucher he’s trying to get cash 
I would strongly advise you to not contact I understand where you are coming from but this falls into no good deed goes unpunished 
I’m sorry your in this boat but hey you have a ton of company - I myself have two so far maybe 3 before it’s done and I was a renter too !!


----------



## Sandisw

RachStu said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience. I was thinking of reaching out to the renter rather than David and then perhaps making a joint approach if they wanted to change their booking (one of the renters is from South Korea and I doubt will be able to, or want to, travel with the current restrictions. Perhaps it’s best to just leave things be, although I imagine that if the renter contacts David and requests a date change on the booking then David’s won’t ask me to make the change. Perhaps I’m wrong though and being unduly harsh on David’s.



His stance during the closure was a hard no,  A few renters have posted here that he offered them an options for trying to secure a new renter.

So, I think if your renters contact him, and he is doing what is being reported right now, you may here from him and can decide if you want to or can still help.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

The reason I said voucher was because it was stated the renter is out of country and more than likely under travel restrictions - it seems David is NOW offering vouchers to out of country renters under Travel Restrictions 
He didn’t care about in country renters under them


----------



## RachStu

WDWEPCOT said:


> The reason I said voucher was because it was stated the renter is out of country and more than likely under travel restrictions - it seems David is NOW offering vouchers to out of country renters under Travel Restrictions
> He didn’t care about in country renters under them



Yes, one is international but the other two bookings are from US citizens.  

Fingers' crossed for them all!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Good luck but I would not if it was me agree to those new terms he has


----------



## RachStu

WDWEPCOT said:


> Good luck but I would not if it was me agree to those new terms he has



Don't worry, I won't!  Any amendment to the booking would be made on the condition that the original terms and conditions are applicable i.e. it would be an amendment not a new booking.  I'm only interested in making a change that assists the current renter, not in making a new booking for someone else in substitution.  Thanks for the heads up. Now I just have to try to rent out c.500 points to be used before the end of November.  I'm thinking that is where I will need the luck!


----------



## garanorymom

Marionnette said:


> He had trouble getting enough owners to supply points before this happened. I don’t think he’s going to see owners clamoring to rent thru him in the future. After reading firsthand reports of his opinion of “lazy” owners that use his service, it would be a cold day in hell before he would get an opportunity to make money off of my points.



Where did he say this? I would very much like to read this as someone that has used his service in the past.


----------



## Marionnette

garanorymom said:


> Where did he say this? I would very much like to read this as someone that has used his service in the past.


I cannot link to it here. It was another DVC message board and the person posting had direct interaction with David. Actually, a couple of posters on that board had in-person experiences with him and none of them came away with a warm, fuzzy feeling.


----------



## lawboy2001

RachStu said:


> Don't worry, I won't!  Any amendment to the booking would be made on the condition that the original terms and conditions are applicable i.e. it would be an amendment not a new booking.  I'm only interested in making a change that assists the current renter, not in making a new booking for someone else in substitution.  Thanks for the heads up. Now I just have to try to rent out c.500 points to be used before the end of November.  I'm thinking that is where I will need the luck!



Aulani has ample availability but this discussion vis a vis your BLT rental is a moot point.  Check out the availability calendar -- no more than 3 consecutive days available, usually midweek.


----------



## Bearval

garanorymom said:


> Where did he say this? I would very much like to read this as someone that has used his service in the past.


Precovid he used to advertise heavily that he needed owner's points.


----------



## RachStu

That doesnt fill me with much hope of using the points that are due to expire at the end of November


----------



## Marionnette

RachStu said:


> That doesnt fill me with much hope of using the points that are due to expire at the end of November


People are changing plans rapidly right now. I cancelled 5 nights in a BWV standard view studio yesterday because one of my brothers bailed out of a family trip scheduled for October. You might just need to be stalking constantly.

If nothing else, those cabins and bungalows are still showing a lot of open nights. Someone might be interested in splurging on a night or two in one of those if the price is right. Who knows?


----------



## Donna M

Marionnette said:


> Try. Another poster has reported that David’s offered them a choice of a voucher or a cash refund minus $3/point if the reservation can be rented out to someone else.



I thought I read all the posts, but suddenly I'm seeing references to a new deal from David's.  Can someone explain this or lead me to the referenced post.   Thanks.


----------



## Marionnette

Donna M said:


> I thought I read all the posts, but suddenly I'm seeing references to a new deal from David's.  Can someone explain this or lead me to the referenced post.   Thanks.


The OP deleted their post on this thread but they were quoted (because...the rule!) in a subsequent post, so their comments are still visible.

Here’s the subsequent post. You can read their quoted post there. It covers the details.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...r-rescheduling.3796922/page-185#post-61946431


----------



## Donna M

Thanks Marionnette     Going back, I did see that post with the ....  only.  So that's what it was.


----------



## DisneyBB

RachStu said:


> I’m afraid I haven’t had a chance to read all of the comments on this thread, so apologies if this has already been asked. I am an owner working with David’s. I’ve got rentals booked for people in August (BLT and Aulani) and Sept (AKV). I haven’t had any communication from David’s in relation to these rentals. I imagine he is busy dealing with the ones that have occurred whilst the parks and hotels have been closed. I know that we agreed not to contact the renters directly when we signed the contract. However, as owner I do have the email address of the lead guest for each booking. I am tempted to contact them to see if they want to change the date of their reservation to later in the year (before the points expire on 30 November). Although it would take a bit of time on my part, I’d be more than happy to do it provided I still received the outstanding 30%. If the Renter wanted to change and we did make the change I’m assuming that David would be none the wiser and that I’d still get my 30% on the day the renter was due to check in. Is that correct? Do the renters have to do anything on the day of checking in to trigger the payment? Do they have to email David’s and confirm they have been able to check in or is it automatic?


We had two families rent points from us through David’s.  My points have a bank deadline of May 31st.  I approached David’s at the end of April and asked him to reach out to my Aug and sept bookings to see if they wanted to change.  Both have now changed to January. David’s was quick to reply, promptly dealt with emails to the renting families.  They do have an amended contract but it says if anything happens next January they get a voucher.  My contract has not changed.  I would email David’s asking if he can reach out to your families explaining the deadline of November.   Your family from SK May have flights tied up with their booking so that may hinder it.  As others have said don’t be tempted to do your own th8ng with the renters, that could make you liable.


----------



## RachStu

Thanks DisneyBB. That’s useful to know.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

That is awesome !! A plus plus works out for Owner and renter! Why the heck hasn’t he done this at the beginning ??


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I heard from David’s today in regards to my upcoming June renter that will be cancelled - they have been offered a voucher 
I was given the option of returning the 70% or renting my returned points 
I responded I would rent but under terms of original contract 
They replied it would be under terms of original contract and I would receive the additional $1 per point from their price increase 
I will get the 30% at checkin 
Since my points are 2021 and we can only borrow 50% it may be a year before I can rent them again if they are returned to their original use year
Funny how they never got back to me on my April rental I guess since the points were so small they don’t care


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

I guess that's a good sign that you're under the terms of the original contract plus getting an extra $1 per point.  I guess that all assumes that David's is able to find you a new renter, but it looks like you have a lot of time for David's to be able to find you a renter.

I am encouraged by the various turn arounds i'm seeing reported from David's and their policies...given that they're helping renters and owners find new dates...and accommodating owners with extra money for the troubles.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I was shocked keep in mind I won a chargeback against him


----------



## Krandor

WDWEPCOT said:


> I heard from David’s today in regards to my upcoming June renter that will be cancelled - they have been offered a voucher
> I was given the option of returning the 70% or renting my returned points
> I responded I would rent but under terms of original contract
> They replied it would be under terms of original contract and I would receive the additional $1 per point from their price increase
> I will get the 30% at checkin
> Since my points are 2021 and we can only borrow 50% it may be a year before I can rent them again if they are returned to their original use year
> Funny how they never got back to me on my April rental I guess since the points were so small they don’t care



id save a copy of that email.


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> I heard from David’s today in regards to my upcoming June renter that will be cancelled - they have been offered a voucher
> I was given the option of returning the 70% or renting my returned points
> I responded I would rent but under terms of original contract
> They replied it would be under terms of original contract and I would receive the additional $1 per point from their price increase
> I will get the 30% at checkin
> Since my points are 2021 and we can only borrow 50% it may be a year before I can rent them again if they are returned to their original use year
> Funny how they never got back to me on my April rental I guess since the points were so small they don’t care



Its good he has decided to take a different stance.  Now, let’s wait to hear from all the owners here who did agree to re rent the points and whether they were given that extra $1!

But, it’s a good sign for him and may help turn things somewhat around for his reputation.

I think the larger problem for him..and any broker or owner renting points...is the new reservation systems.  Until we see how it works, and if guests are at least guarantees a park..not park of choice...each day of the trip, you may have renters a little shy to take on non refundable contracts.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’ve kept all my correspondence with him and only do things in writing I didn’t fall if the pumpkin truck yesterday haa haa


----------



## Amymouse13

I'm not gonna scroll back up to directly thank the person who suggested calling Disney to inquire about getting refund on tickets but seems they have to submit a form and there are certain dates that appear to be getting refunds... If you call... I should hear in a few weeks...

I'm not sure how deciding to do refunds may play into their future park plans or they are just being understanding ??


----------



## Amymouse13

Also has anyone been successful with a chargeback using Visa?  One of our chargebacks was denied and they said visa was denying then all??


----------



## Princess Michele

WDWEPCOT said:


> I heard from David’s today in regards to my upcoming June renter that will be cancelled - they have been offered a voucher
> I was given the option of returning the 70% or renting my returned points
> I responded I would rent but under terms of original contract
> They replied it would be under terms of original contract and I would receive the additional $1 per point from their price increase
> I will get the 30% at checkin
> Since my points are 2021 and we can only borrow 50% it may be a year before I can rent them again if they are returned to their original use year
> Funny how they never got back to me on my April rental I guess since the points were so small they don’t care


I heard from David's today also regarding my June renter.  I sent an email with a few questions I need answered so I can make a decision.  Hopefully they will respond today.  I am not sure whether I should return the 70% or re-rent the points.  Part of me wants to return the money and move on but then I will need to do something with my points as we are not planning on a trip to WDW next year.


----------



## Bearval

Amymouse13 said:


> Also has anyone been successful with a chargeback using Visa?  One of our chargebacks was denied and they said visa was denying then all??


What was the reason for the denial? They are required to give you a reason in writing why your claim as denied.


----------



## Amymouse13

Bearval said:


> What was the reason for the denial? They are required to give you a reason in writing why your claim as denied.



My husband called and that's what they told him.  Said we could pursue civil suit?  I presume they will mail something.  Our other chargeback is with MasterCard via Citibank.  The visa is a bank of America business card.  Just curious if anyone had heard this from a visa...


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> My husband called and that's what they told him.  Said we could pursue civil suit?  I presume they will mail something.  Our other chargeback is with MasterCard via Citibank.  The visa is a bank of America business card.  Just curious if anyone had heard this from a visa...



I wonder if it is because it is a business card? Are there different rules for the,? Doesn’t think it matters though


----------



## WDWEPCOT

My charge back was with a chase visa and I won


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I have one pending on a different travel issue with citi MasterCard that is not looking so well
I will say Chase by far is superior in all things my opinion and experience only


----------



## Bearval

Amymouse13 said:


> My husband called and that's what they told him.  Said we could pursue civil suit?  I presume they will mail something.  Our other chargeback is with MasterCard via Citibank.  The visa is a bank of America business card.  Just curious if anyone had heard this from a visa...


I would call them back and ask when you can expect the denial letter.  Then resubmit the chargeback with a copy of the denial letter and a copy of your contract with the pertinent sections highlighted.


----------



## Amymouse13

Bearval said:


> I would call them back and ask when you can expect the denial letter.  Then resubmit the chargeback with a copy of the denial letter and a copy of your contract with the pertinent sections highlighted.



We submitted that... With voucher wording, contract highlighted, and letter... They claim visa isn't allowing??


----------



## Bearval

Amymouse13 said:


> We submitted that... With voucher wording, contract highlighted, and letter... They claim visa isn't allowing??


I have heard of visa initially denying chargeback claims but it was because they submitted the claim before the resort was closed for the days of the booking.  Once those dates passed they resubmitted with all of the contract information etc. and then they were successful.


----------



## emerald3582

I just looked at the trip insurance I bought for my DCL back in Jan 2019. At the time, I was more concerned about hurricanes or medical evac. The policy did not include pandemic, but it did not exclude it either. It did specifically include being quarantined:

"a. You or Your Traveling Companion being hijacked, quarantined, required to serve on a jury (notice of jury duty must be received after Your Effective Date), served with a court order to appear as a witness in a legal action in which You or Your Traveling Companion is not a party (except law enforcement officers); "

I'm wondering if I would have been denied or granted coverage because of this clause. If and when I do purchase trip insurance again, I'm sure the verbage will be modified. Just as the rental agreements will also.

Also, just to reassure you owners out there, I have been researching plans to rent points for my upcoming WDW vacation in October 2021 and still plan to do so.


----------



## Kevin_W

WDWEPCOT said:


> My charge back was with a chase visa and I won



How long did yours take?  I filed my paperwork with Chase 5/27 and got a notice of receipt.  Then I received a boilerplate note 5/28 saying they would look into it, but nothing since then.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I filed over the phone it takes two billing cycles - mine was Aulani and David is not dealing with Aulani per David they are too busy with FL I don’t believe they ever responded to Chase as mine was resolved before two billing cycles 
I filed in March the minute the hotel closed after I had given David several chances my checkin was not until May but since hotel was closed and Hawaii was on lock down thru June Chase accepted my filing a charge back 
I submitted nothing


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Oh and I was never offered a voucher


----------



## Debbie Jean

WDWEPCOT said:


> Oh and I was never offered a voucher



If I'm understanding you, it sounds like you filed a charge back right away, "in March the minute the hotel closed" well ahead of your May reservation. At that point, David's was only dealing with cancelled reservations... mine was at the end of May. I had to wait until it was actually cancelled by Disney to be offered the voucher. I accepted and have since re-booked for next year.

I would not expect you to be offered a voucher having filed the charge back. Were it to be denied, then you would be offered a voucher.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Once Canada closed their border and Hawaii was on lock down - there was no way the Hawaii cruise was going to happen = I contacted David begging him to ask the Owner to rebook - Flat NO - Then the Hotel closed - Again I contacted David - Again NO - Asked to speak to Manager - again NO and was told they are too busy dealing with Florida to deal with Hawaii - So I called Chase. Chase found this unacceptable (and so did I). While all this was going on - I also had an April Renter who David had consented that I could work with to rebook - well him took that back unknown to me and gave them a voucher (they were FL) - So he was giving out Vouchers - Just not to Renters in Hawaii. Remember he was too busy dealing with Florida - Never too busy to take your cash. What I find infuriating I have a June renter who will be cancelled  next week - funny that now all of a sudden David can find my email address and contact me about that - doesn't care to not have that cash! My little April rental who cares ?? 
But my rental in Hawaii was almost $3,000 I would think that would have been worth his time But what do I know????


----------



## Debbie Jean

WDWEPCOT said:


> Once Canada closed their border and Hawaii was on lock down - there was no way the Hawaii cruise was going to happen = I contacted David begging him to ask the Owner to rebook - Flat NO - Then the Hotel closed - Again I contacted David - Again NO - Asked to speak to Manager - again NO and was told they are too busy dealing with Florida to deal with Hawaii - So I called Chase. Chase found this unacceptable (and so did I). While all this was going on - I also had an April Renter who David had consented that I could work with to rebook - well him took that back unknown to me and gave them a voucher (they were FL) - So he was giving out Vouchers - Just not to Renters in Hawaii. Remember he was too busy dealing with Florida - Never too busy to take your cash. What I find infuriating I have a June renter who will be cancelled  next week - funny that now all of a sudden David can find my email address and contact me about that - doesn't care to not have that cash! My little April rental who cares ??
> But my rental in Hawaii was almost $3,000 I would think that would have been worth his time But what do I know????



I wasn’t suggesting you should have necessarily done anything differently. Just that under your circumstances you would not have been offered a voucher. 

The voucher system was actually not set up and offered until quite a bit later than the point in March you are referencing. You elected to do a charge back immediately. If you had waited until Disney cancelled your May reservation you would have been offered a voucher. 

People who have charge backs pending now, I believe are told that they will still be eligible for vouchers if they are denied. So there is no loss in trying that route.


----------



## Krandor

WDWEPCOT said:


> Once Canada closed their border and Hawaii was on lock down - there was no way the Hawaii cruise was going to happen = I contacted David begging him to ask the Owner to rebook - Flat NO - Then the Hotel closed - Again I contacted David - Again NO - Asked to speak to Manager - again NO and was told they are too busy dealing with Florida to deal with Hawaii - So I called Chase. Chase found this unacceptable (and so did I). While all this was going on - I also had an April Renter who David had consented that I could work with to rebook - well him took that back unknown to me and gave them a voucher (they were FL) - So he was giving out Vouchers - Just not to Renters in Hawaii. Remember he was too busy dealing with Florida - Never too busy to take your cash. What I find infuriating I have a June renter who will be cancelled  next week - funny that now all of a sudden David can find my email address and contact me about that - doesn't care to not have that cash! My little April rental who cares ??
> But my rental in Hawaii was almost $3,000 I would think that would have been worth his time But what do I know????



For them just to say they were not going to deal with Hawaii was ridiculous.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Real frosted my cake !!


----------



## Krandor

WDWEPCOT said:


> Real frosted my cake !!



I assume you are in the not using David's again camp then?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

As the line in Kill Bill Goes - we have unfinished business - once that is done - we are DONE for all eternity ! Amen ! 
To each his own but it’s not for me as a Owner or Renter and sad to say I was both in this mess.


----------



## Krandor

WDWEPCOT said:


> As the line in Kill Bill Goes - we have unfinished business - once that is done - we are DONE for all eternity ! Amen !
> To each his own but it’s not for me as a Owner or Renter and sad to say I was both in this mess.



Wish you all the best in getting through this thing.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Oh thank you I hope everyone comes out well I’m afraid that may not be the case this whole mess just sucks all way around everywhere !!


----------



## Grnl706

My reservation for 6/14-6/20 has disappeared from MDE. Renter's don't receive emails of the cancellation, correct? 

What was everyone doing once their reservation disappeared? I was sent the voucher email. Do I respond asking for a refund first?


----------



## Sandisw

Grnl706 said:


> My reservation for 6/14-6/20 has disappeared from MDE. Renter's don't receive emails of the cancellation, correct?
> 
> What was everyone doing once their reservation disappeared? I was sent the voucher email. Do I respond asking for a refund first?



DVC doesn’t send cancellation emails at all.  I can’t help with the rest.


----------



## Grnl706

Sandisw said:


> DVC doesn’t send cancellation emails at all.  I can’t help with the rest.


That's good to know! I was surprised to see it gone. I thought they were only cancelling 5-7 days out.


----------



## Sandisw

Grnl706 said:


> That's good to know! I was surprised to see it gone. I thought they were only cancelling 5-7 days out.



Now that DVC has an opening date, it sounds like maybe they increased timeline. No need to wait any more.


----------



## diser_fam

WDWEPCOT said:


> My charge back was with a chase visa and I won



My check in date of June 7th disappeared this morning and I used a Chase Disney Premier Visa.  When you called in to initiate your charge back, what information did you have to provide.  I'm assuming the date and amount of the charge?  Did you have to email them any screen shots or other information after the call?  David's contract?  Thanks in advance.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I told them what I booked - how it worked I explained the whole process - I told her Hawaii was on lockdown and that whole process and my own travel lockdown - I told her the hotel was closed with no reopen date and I went over all my correspondence with David to rebook or obtain a refund  
I offered to send documents but was never requested to do so 
Chase stance was you could not take money for a room and not provide room and not give refund unacceptable


----------



## DduzDis

I may be in the minority, but actually refunded the rental I had.  It was only one day so not a huge sum of money.  I would not have felt good about getting to bank the points and keep the money.  What happens between the renter and David's is between them. But, I feel good about my part.  It would be  a different story I think if I was not able to use the points.


----------



## SherylLC

DduzDis said:


> I may be in the minority, but actually refunded the rental I had.  It was only one day so not a huge sum of money.  I would not have felt good about getting to bank the points and keep the money.  What happens between the renter and David's is between them. But, I feel good about my part.  It would be  a different story I think if I was not able to use the points.


I don't think you are in the minority. Why do you think you are? I think nearly all of us will do the right thing. It's when points are lost that the decisions are harder.


----------



## DduzDis

SherylLC said:


> I don't think you are in the minority. Why do you think you are? I think nearly all of us will do the right thing. It's when points are lost that the decisions are harder.



I indicated that I 'may' be.  I don't know for sure.


----------



## VeroGuy

I initiated my chargeback this morning with chase for my check in that was for yesterday. I explained the process and how it all worked but the specialist that I spoke to made it sound as if there was a different set of rules because this was dealing with a timeshare rental. To be honest I don’t have a good feeling. 

The chargeback was initiated and the paperwork is being sent and we will see how it goes.


----------



## VeroGuy

Just to add to my other post, I was specifically asked if any form of mediation was offered. I told them that a voucher was offered but that the terms of the voucher were unacceptable and required me to sign a new contract that reduced my ability as a customer to receive the service in which I paid for.


----------



## Bearval

VeroGuy said:


> I initiated my chargeback this morning with chase for my check in that was for yesterday. I explained the process and how it all worked but the specialist that I spoke to made it sound as if there was a different set of rules because this was dealing with a timeshare rental. To be honest I don’t have a good feeling.
> 
> The chargeback was initiated and the paperwork is being sent and we will see how it goes.


You should have corrected them and let them know your reservation was with a travel agency, that is what he has on his website  or at least did.


----------



## PrincessNelly

Anyone dealing with the other major rental site? How are they handling things?

I noticed that they are charging upwards of $28 per point on some of their confirmed reservations. Wondering if thats been passed on to the owners.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

PrincessNelly said:


> Anyone dealing with the other major rental site? How are they handling things?
> 
> I noticed that they are charging upwards of $28 per point on some of their confirmed reservations. Wondering if thats been passed on to the owners.



Is $28 a typo??


----------



## Amymouse13

For my one chargeback supposedly bank of America took to visa twice which is all they are allowed to do and Visa said no as a voucher was offered.  I had supplied all the documentation and explained the voucher was a different contract etc but didn't matter... Have asked for a supervisor to call me but that was days ago now... Still waiting on my Citibank MasterCard.  Meh.  I think our total was like 3500 between 1400 with bank of America card and about 2000 with Citibank.  We got our flights refunded, meal plans, put in form for tickets, so at least we got a good portion back I guess?  Still hopeful for Citibank...


----------



## VeroGuy

Bearval said:


> You should have corrected them and let them know your reservation was with a travel agency, that is what he has on his website  or at least did.


Yeah I plan on explaining that once I receive the letter by snail mail. I was told to submit all documentation and a detailed explanation, os I will make it a point to say travel agency. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## PrincessNelly

PrincessNelly said:


> Anyone dealing with the other major rental site? How are they handling things?
> 
> I noticed that they are charging upwards of $28 per point on some of their confirmed reservations. Wondering if thats been passed on to the owners.


Not a typo. Lol. I was just browsing their confirm rentals and notice quite a few were that high. 
$1700 for a 60 point stay at AKL.
$800 for a one night studio rental at Beach Club and so on. All of them are higher than the $18-$20 range


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m sorry your charge back with visa is not going well that sucks ! Chase visa had stated to me in March that because of Covid you did not have to accept vouchers because you could not know when or if you could travel any time - I won both my chargebacks with Chase in regards to that now Citi MasterCard they are another story as I’m still going back with them and Delta over the hot mess Delta made of my flights - it’s a long story !


----------



## DGsAtBLT

PrincessNelly said:


> Not a typo. Lol. I was just browsing their confirm rentals and notice quite a few were that high.
> $1700 for a 60 point stay at AKL.
> $800 for a one night studio rental at Beach Club and so on. All of them are higher than the $18-$20 range



Wow. Gotta capitalize on those who can’t book through Disney but want to go, gross.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Asking and getting are two different things those prices are shocking !! Wow


----------



## DGsAtBLT

For what it’s worth, David’s dedicated reservations are priced normally, should anyone reading this thread about everyone’s frustrations with them decide to rent lol.


----------



## Bearval

DGsAtBLT said:


> For what it’s worth, David’s dedicated reservations are priced normally, should anyone reading this thread about everyone’s frustrations with them decide to rent lol.


My question would be under the new contracts if the owner backed out and canceled my reservation would I get a refund or would I have to take a voucher?


----------



## Sandisw

Bearval said:


> My question would be under the new contracts if the owner backed out and canceled my reservation would I get a refund or would I have to take a voucher?



I believe he offers only a voucher now.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I believe you are correct


----------



## Disneykate605

We had renters scheduled for March 15- 17th. The resort was open for their stay. I felt bad though and contacted David's to find out if there was anything I could do to help (they were points that were set to expire March 31st but I heard that DVC was unborrowing points so I figured I'd try to help.) I was actually out of town at the time and they said they would get in touch with me if they needed me and they said assume the renters are going. I called again and they said they would ask the renters. I again reached out to David's on the check in day and they told me that the renter did want to reschedule. When did they plan on telling me?? Anyway the dates the renter wanted weren't available so I stalked and got them. This all happened in the beginning of this mess and they let me reschedule for my original renter. The rescheduled date are during the closure (June 14-16). David's emailed me asking for 70% back or for me to re-rent the points. We actually were paid all of the money David's owed us because I reminded him in the beginning that the resort was open and it was there choice not to go.
I'm not sure what we want to do...we don't really want to deal with David's anymore I think the part of the renters contract that puts extra liability on the owner when it's not mentioned in the owner contract is super shady! We also could use those points now since there is a borrowing restriction in place. I think we  actually fulfilled our contract since the resort was open for the original reservation  but would feel bad about keeping all the money and the points. We are thinking of returning the 70% and keeping the 30% (I have spent so much time on hold, online &  the phone with DVC for this rental). If we could reschedule the same renter we would do that but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It was only 46 points so it is not a ton of money we are talking about.
What does everyone think?


----------



## Sandisw

Disneykate605 said:


> We had renters scheduled for March 15- 17th. The resort was open for their stay. I felt bad though and contacted David's to find out if there was anything I could do to help (they were points that were set to expire March 31st but I heard that DVC was unborrowing points so I figured I'd try to help.) I was actually out of town at the time and they said they would get in touch with me if they needed me and they said assume the renters are going. I called again and they said they would ask the renters. I again reached out to David's on the check in day and they told me that the renter did want to reschedule. When did they plan on telling me?? Anyway the dates the renter wanted weren't available so I stalked and got them. This all happened in the beginning of this mess and they let me reschedule for my original renter. The rescheduled date are during the closure (June 14-16). David's emailed me asking for 70% back or for me to re-rent the points. We actually were paid all of the money David's owed us because I reminded him in the beginning that the resort was open and it was there choice not to go.
> I'm not sure what we want to do...we don't really want to deal with David's anymore I think the part of the renters contract that puts extra liability on the owner when it's not mentioned in the owner contract is super shady! We also could use those points now since there is a borrowing restriction in place. I think we could actually fulfilled our contract but would feel bad about keeping all the money and the points. We are thinking of returning the 70% and keeping the 30% (I have spent so much time on hold, online &  the phone with DVC for this rental). If we could reschedule the same renter we would do that but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It was only 46 points so it is not a ton of money we are talking about.
> What does everyone think?



My opinion...I’d say you already made the adjustment and that a 2nd closure the renter is out of luck,

Those are the terms of his new voucher.  So, if it is good for him, it’s good for an owners..


----------



## mcdanohio

You have done more than enough, I would cut ties and keep the full payment from the contract.


----------



## mcdanohio

So I have been lurking on this thread for some time and finally registered just to respond. 

As an owner I have rented my points to David's for many years, it has always worked out perfectly until COVID hit. 

I know have 3 contracts that he choose to cancel even though there was no negligence on my part.  He did pay me the final 30% after the first cancellation and has held the final 30% on the final 2.  I am still holding 7 reservations for families with him and I have notified him that I expected the final 30% payment 45 days prior to check in as he now has a known issue of fulfilling contracts.  If the final 30% is not paid 45 days prior then I will communicate with the renter and David's in an email and let them know the reservation will be canceled.  I have to do what I can to protect myself and receive my money due as honestly I do not trust them at all.

They have sent a counter offer that they would pay me the final 30% if I rented the points again on the canceled reservations but withholding a single dollar per point to be paid at check in, I declined this offer as well.

I have been in contact with a lawyer (friend) and was advised that David's did not have a legal right to cancel any of the contracts and withhold the final payment.  He also suggested that I amend the payment terms and send certified mail.


----------



## dragonflymom

mcdanohio said:


> I am still holding 7 reservations for families with him and I have notified him that I expected the final 30% payment 45 days prior to check in as he now has a known issue of fulfilling contracts. If the final 30% is not paid 45 days prior then I will communicate with the renter and David's in an email and let them know the reservation will be canceled.



I'm sorry but why would you break your contract and derail 7 other families' vacations?  I understand you're upset about the other 3 reservations that were cancelled (by Disney) and not paid 30%, but why would you put this on 7 other innocent parties?


----------



## starry_solo

dragonflymom said:


> I'm sorry but why would you break your contract and derail 7 other families' vacations?  I understand you're upset about the other 3 reservations that were cancelled (by Disney) and not paid 30%, but why would you put this on 7 other innocent parties?



Agreed. I doubt any attorney would tell you to break the other 7 contracts due to David's actions on the other 3.


----------



## New Mouse

dragonflymom said:


> I'm sorry but why would you break your contract and derail 7 other families' vacations?  I understand you're upset about the other 3 reservations that were cancelled (by Disney) and not paid 30%, but why would you put this on 7 other innocent parties?



Because they can get their money back from.their credit card and the business in question (Davids) seems to be defaulting on his obligations.


----------



## dragonflymom

New Mouse said:


> Because they can get their money back from.their credit card and the business in question (Davids) seems to be defaulting on his obligations.



What if the 7 families want to go on their vacation as planned and don't want their hard earned dollars held hostage by a dispute between an owner and David's over prior completely unrelated rentals?


----------



## DisneyBB

New Mouse said:


> Because they can get their money back from.their credit card and the business in question (Davids) seems to be defaulting on his obligations.


The contract as an owner is very clear if the owner cancels they are liable for all costs. This could include airfares and other expenses.  Not a good idea!


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> I believe he offers only a voucher now.


That would such


DisneyBB said:


> The contract as an owner is very clear if the owner cancels they are liable for all costs. This could include airfares and other expenses.  Not a good idea!


That is only if the owner signed one of the new contracts.  Also I would be curious to know what would happen if an owner defaults on the new  contract?  It states the owner is liable but does it state who has to file legal action if the owner refuses to pay?   To make it clear, I do not agree for someone to default a contract.


----------



## CraigInPA

starry_solo said:


> Agreed. I doubt any attorney would tell you to break the other 7 contracts due to David's actions on the other 3.



Anticipatory breach is a situation where one party breaches the contract because the actions of the other party show a likelihood of the other party not fulfilling their obligations. In this case, David's refusal to pay the remaining required payments on 2 contracts puts the other 7 in jeopardy because it shows a pattern where David's is not fulfilling his part of the contract. Many attorneys will say you can cancel the other 7 to cut your losses, but they'll also tell you that you need to refund the 7 less the amount owed to you on the 2. Others will tell you to try to work it out, because the impact you create by cancelling 7 may lead to further litigation (especially if the renters don't get a full refund from David's per contract) which may be costly.


----------



## New Mouse

dragonflymom said:


> What if the 7 families want to go on their vacation as planned and don't want their hard earned dollars held hostage by a dispute between an owner and David's over prior completely unrelated rentals?



They didnt purchase the vacation from the owner, they purchased it from Davids.   It is up to David to solve the problem in that case.   His options are to pay the money owed to the owner as agreed, take the owner to court or find another solution for the renter.   

He wants to be paid for being the middle man, this is what happens when you try to pass the buck like he has been.


----------



## DisneyBB

Bearval said:


> That would such
> 
> That is only if the owner signed one of the new contracts.  Also I would be curious to know what would happen if an owner defaults on the new  contract?  It states the owner is liable but does it state who has to file legal action if the owner refuses to pay?   To make it clear, I do not agree for someone to default a contract.


It’s is both contracts if the owner cancels the reservation the owner is liable.  If the dvc resorts shuts then only in the new contract is the owner responsible.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

IMO the first contract would also require owners to pay for cancelling a reservation without agreement of the renter/David.


Bearval said:


> That is only if the owner signed one of the new contracts.  Also I would be curious to know what would happen if an owner defaults on the new  contract?  It states the owner is liable but does it state who has to file legal action if the owner refuses to pay?   To make it clear, I do not agree for someone to default a contract.


----------



## renda460

SherylLC said:


> I don't think you are in the minority. Why do you think you are? I think nearly all of us will do the right thing. It's when points are lost that the decisions are harder.


I'm just curious if other owners have paid income taxes on the points they rented?  I would consider refunding the money, however when I considered the maintenance fees already paid and income taxes already paid on this income, refunding would mean I would lose money in the end (points will expire in Nov and will likely be lost).   Should the loss be on my part while the renters get a refund?  If Davids were to take the 46% they still have from the reservation and refund it to the renters, then all 3 of us take a loss, but a much smaller one per party.


----------



## Sharene0724

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO the first contract would also require owners to pay for cancelling a reservation without agreement of the renter/David.



The verbiage from the old contract does state owner is required to pay for cancelling without agreement. The below is from the old contract that I agreed to as an owner for a current rental with David's. This is why even though my current rental is in the period of time that the resorts are closed, I am waiting for Disney to cancel and am not touching the points at all until that happens.

"The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs."


----------



## DisneyBB

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> IMO the first contract would also require owners to pay for cancelling a reservation without agreement of the renter/David.


Yes that is what I said or meant.  That is why as an owner I have been very careful to arrange the alterations of my renters through David.  Don't want any comeback on me.  I still have the old contract and the new dates for the renters are under a new contract.


----------



## Sharene0724

renda460 said:


> I'm just curious if other owners have paid income taxes on the points they rented?  I would consider refunding the money, however when I considered the maintenance fees already paid and income taxes already paid on this income, refunding would mean I would lose money in the end (points will expire in Nov and will likely be lost).   Should the loss be on my part while the renters get a refund?  If Davids were to take the 46% they still have from the reservation and refund it to the renters, then all 3 of us take a loss, but a much smaller one per party.



I paid taxes on mine, and I see your point on spreading the loss among the three parties. I think each situation is different and you have to do what is right for you, I don't judge anyone who keeps the money or pays it out. It's really an individual situation type decision.

I do wonder though how it affects the ability to rent with David's in the future. I may not like his new contract now but what if he changes it and goes back to the old or something similar? I might want to rent though him then. Do you think he puts anyone on a list where he wouldn't do business with them? That's the only thing that bothers me with the situation. Maybe I just need to go the private rental route through boards.


----------



## rstamm

Could someone explain to me why David’s doesn’t want me to rebook the family I originally booked and wants me to book a new family?

I’m not understanding this


----------



## CraigInPA

rstamm said:


> Could someone explain to me why David’s doesn’t want me to rebook the family I originally booked and wants me to book a new family?
> 
> I’m not understanding this



He has new cash coming from the new family versus no new cash (or a very small amount of cash) from your existing family. The only way he can afford to fund the voucher program is to book new business to bring in cash to pay for reservations and chargebacks, while at the same time hoping that the voucher holders don't all redeem those vouchers.


----------



## CraigInPA

renda460 said:


> I'm just curious if other owners have paid income taxes on the points they rented?  I would consider refunding the money, however when I considered the maintenance fees already paid and income taxes already paid on this income, refunding would mean I would lose money in the end (points will expire in Nov and will likely be lost).   Should the loss be on my part while the renters get a refund?  If Davids were to take the 46% they still have from the reservation and refund it to the renters, then all 3 of us take a loss, but a much smaller one per party.



The renters are getting a voucher, not a refund. The voucher terms are really bad for the renters. One important aspect of the voucher program is that David's needs to have owners willing to rent to David's in order to fulfill vouchers. If owners, upset that David's hasn't paid many other owners, don't agree to rent to David's, the vouchers will be effectively worthless unless the renter wants to book a full rack rate hotel room. 

You are not required to refund the 70% you received based upon the old contract. So, if you points will be worthless as a result of the report closure, don't even consider refunding David's the money you received.


----------



## rstamm

CraigInPA said:


> He has new cash coming from the new family versus no new cash (or a very small amount of cash) from your existing family. The only way he can afford to fund the voucher program is to book new business to bring in cash to pay for reservations and chargebacks, while at the same time hoping that the voucher holders don't all redeem those vouchers.


Thank you


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

CraigInPA said:


> He has new cash coming from the new family versus no new cash (or a very small amount of cash) from your existing family. The only way he can afford to fund the voucher program is to book new business to bring in cash to pay for reservations and chargebacks, while at the same time hoping that the voucher holders don't all redeem those vouchers.


If the new cash is paying for charge backs by renters whose reservations were cancelled, then he needs newer cash to pay for the reservations of the new customers.  And when he uses that newer cash to pay for the slightly less new customers (and those redeeming vouchers), he needs more even newer cash...


----------



## SherylLC

renda460 said:


> I'm just curious if other owners have paid income taxes on the points they rented?  I would consider refunding the money, however when I considered the maintenance fees already paid and income taxes already paid on this income, refunding would mean I would lose money in the end (points will expire in Nov and will likely be lost).   Should the loss be on my part while the renters get a refund?  If Davids were to take the 46% they still have from the reservation and refund it to the renters, then all 3 of us take a loss, but a much smaller one per party.


IMHO, if your points are lost, you should be paid in full by David's.


----------



## rstamm

So if I re rent my points isn’t there something negative in the new agreement now for owners 
I think I read on here?

I want to make a good decision and not sure I should be renting my points anymore with David’s


----------



## SherylLC

rstamm said:


> Could someone explain to me why David’s doesn’t want me to rebook the family I originally booked and wants me to book a new family?
> 
> I’m not understanding this


In one of my reservations with him, a family is backing out of a September reservation and the points will expire at end of November, he wants to put a new family in the current reservation because he knows if I cancel the reservation it's very likely that we won't be able to book a new one before November ends and the points will be lost.


----------



## Sharene0724

rstamm said:


> So if I re rent my points isn’t there something negative in the new agreement now for owners
> I think I read on here?
> 
> I want to make a good decision and not sure I should be renting my points anymore with David’s




The new contract is on their site but basically it places the risk on the owner versus David's if Disney cancels the reservation for something like the pandemic:

"In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has paid 70% of the funds collected for the reservation from Guest to DVC Owner pursuant to 4(f) of this Agreement, DVC Owner will return to Intermediary the full amount it has already received from Intermediary, as soon as is reasonably possible after the conditions(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to DVC Owner. A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to DVC Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."


----------



## Marionnette

Sharene0724 said:


> The new contract is on their site but basically it places the risk on the owner versus David's if Disney cancels the reservation for something like the pandemic:
> 
> "In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has paid 70% of the funds collected for the reservation from Guest to DVC Owner pursuant to 4(f) of this Agreement, DVC Owner will return to Intermediary the full amount it has already received from Intermediary, as soon as is reasonably possible after the conditions(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to DVC Owner. A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to DVC Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations."


And that is a huge sticking point going forward. Having your points tied up for months and possibly holding a reservation past your banking deadline, then having to refund to David’s (not the renter) due to a force majeure? This puts all of the risk on the owner. Why would anyone offer their points to be rented out under those conditions?


----------



## Sharene0724

Marionnette said:


> And that is a huge sticking point going forward. Having your points tied up for months and possibly holding a reservation past your banking deadline, then having to refund to David’s (not the renter) due to a force majeure? This puts all of the risk on the owner. Why would anyone offer their points to be rented out under those conditions?



We did not re rent our points with them exactly because of that. I think someone a few posts ago had said that David's has basically become a match maker for owners and renters and nothing else with this new contract. Seems like a lot to pay for just match making. Now to figure out how to squeeze in another trip next year or maybe look to doing a private rental on the boards now that we have the points back.


----------



## Donna M

rstamm said:


> So if I re rent my points isn’t there something negative in the new agreement now for owners
> I think I read on here?
> 
> I want to make a good decision and not sure I should be renting my points anymore with David’s



The following is the part that bothers me as an owner and renting:


Donna M said:


> 15. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. *In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.*
> 
> The above is found *only *in the renter's agreement.  The owner's agreement calls for refunding the renter's costs, but it is not written that the owner will be responsible for additional payment if David needs to find more expensive accommodations.  There's no way I would rent with such an unknown possibility.
> 
> I don't understand how David's can expect owners to pay the difference when it is not in the owner's contract.  And unfortunately, the renter is lead to believe that the owner will pay.


----------



## disneypharm

I just found out that one chargeback is successful.  I provided a long letter highlighting the differences between the first and second (voucher) contract.  CC company never asked for anything else. I filed a dispute on April 21st and was refunded a credit to my account today.  Now one more to go ;-)


----------



## Sandisw

rstamm said:


> So if I re rent my points isn’t there something negative in the new agreement now for owners
> I think I read on here?
> 
> I want to make a good decision and not sure I should be renting my points anymore with David’s



If something happens and the resort closes, or is damaged, etc., you have to refund the 70% paid, regardless of what status your points will be in.

For me, that is a big one. I can rent on my own and make my own terms so both myself and renter share the loss.

This puts it on the shoulder of the owner only. He keeps commission and renter gets voucher.


----------



## dragonflymom

New Mouse said:


> They didnt purchase the vacation from the owner, they purchased it from Davids.   It is up to David to solve the problem in that case.   His options are to pay the money owed to the owner as agreed, take the owner to court or find another solution for the renter.
> 
> He wants to be paid for being the middle man, this is what happens when you try to pass the buck like he has been.



I understand all the grievances that owners have with David's.  I came to this thread because I had my first (and only) rental with David's during the closure period and believe it or not, I had read every single post in this 190+ page thread!  I learned a lot from everyone and took the advice of reaching out to my renters and offered to reschedule.  They didn't know when they could go to Disney again since the trip was a 3-family reunion to celebrate an 80th birthday.  They said they would take the voucher and I pointed out the risks of the voucher program to them based on what I had learned here and suggested they could try the credit card chargeback route.  In the end they felt the voucher program was fair given the pandemic plus they said they had understood the risks of a non-refundable rental.  The conversation with my renters along with some of the advice here made me decide to return my 70% to David's, take my points back and try to re-rent myself since I don't like the new contract terms.  I also like the advice to go with your gut what is the right thing to do to be able to sleep at night.  And it will be different for everyone so there shouldn't be any judgment passed on what owners ultimately decide to do as each circumstance is different.

What I do want to highlight is that whatever animosity an owner may have towards David's please do not escalate by dragging in other innocent renters and making a bad situation worse.  If you think about it, the renters are in the worst situation in this mess since they are out 100% of their money unless they are successful with a chargeback.  For owners, everyone's math will be different--some are happy if they can just recoup annual maintenance fees while others want the full contracted $14.50 from David's. There are many arguments outlined in this thread that an owner can pick and choose to support one's ultimate decision.

To further support my plea for owners not to escalate by hurting more renters, imagine yourself as one of the co-workers in this analogous situation:  let's say I had a beef with my boss, maybe a long-deserved raise or bonus that they had promised me.  I worked my butt off and when the time came, not only did they not give me the raise because the company was in financial trouble due to the pandemic but to add insult to injury, they wanted everyone to take a 10% pay cut including me.  I am furious so to force the issue, I refused to co-operate with my 7 other co-workers and would not provide them with what they need to do their jobs.  It is now up to the boss to solve everyone's problems because the boss/company shouldn't have passed the buck.

Finally, there are times when it makes sense to extend good will, flexbility or benefit of the doubt despite what is legally enforceable on a piece of paper.  I believe CV-19 is one of those times.  Just ask yourself whether you have ever been on the receiving end of an act of kindness, someone cutting you some slack despite what you're required to do or not do.  I'm sure you would have been grateful in those situations and if you can be in a position to pay it forward, wonderful!  If not, please consider not pouring gasoline on a fire.


----------



## rstamm

Thank you for the responses!!


----------



## Madame

SherylLC said:


> In one of my reservations with him, a family is backing out of a September reservation and the points will expire at end of November, he wants to put a new family in the current reservation because he knows if I cancel the reservation it's very likely that we won't be able to book a new one before November ends and the points will be lost.


Not directed at you, but I don’t understand why he is allowing renters to back out during non-closure periods.  This is not smart; owners use a broker to avoid the “I can’t go for X reason.”


----------



## starry_solo

Madame said:


> Not directed at you, but I don’t understand why he is allowing renters to back out during non-closure periods.  This is not smart; owners use a broker to avoid the “I can’t go for X reason.”



Maybe he gets money from the new family and the old family gets a voucher?


----------



## banzai75

starry_solo said:


> Maybe he gets money from the new family and the old family gets a voucher?



He is going to ask the owner to then re rent the points for new renters or for people using vouchers. Then he offers voucher to the person cancelling and can just keep pushing reservations out further and further.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Madame said:


> Not directed at you, but I don’t understand why he is allowing renters to back out during non-closure periods.  This is not smart; owners use a broker to avoid the “I can’t go for X reason.”




Personally I think it’s an attempt to do the “right thing” now that the end of the closure is known, but I think the attempt misses the mark and just further aggravates those of us who are unimpressed with how everything has been handled, including but not limited to the way they don’t seem to care to stick to their contracts at their discretion only.


----------



## Sandisw

Madame said:


> Not directed at you, but I don’t understand why he is allowing renters to back out during non-closure periods.  This is not smart; owners use a broker to avoid the “I can’t go for X reason.”



I think he is trying to keep renters happy and figures he can convince owners, given what is happening in hopes they have no idea how things have gone so far.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I think it’s a money grab and he’s trying to gain some goodwill doing it but plain and simple it’s a money grab fir his house of cards 
Bottom line it ties up your 30% for all of eternity but if you accept the fact that you may never get it - no harm - the issues come with you the Owner having to book new people again and God forbid this happens again because per David’s I’m rebooking under the terms of my original contract NOT the new contract language so if we have another closure I’m not rebooking a third time because by then my points will be toast !!


----------



## DVC BLT

I'm an owner renting my points through Davids.  Was contacted today that the renter doesnt want to take the trip in November due to COVID.  Offered me $2 additional per point if I agree to let him change the name on the reservation, but no mention of a new contract with new terms?  I'm concerned about a 2nd outbreak and the new person wanting to cancel.  With that said, i've read some of this thread and its opened my eyes to how difficult it must be for the renter as well.  I'm trying to decide between just taking the points back or changing the name.  Any pros / cons?  I'm open to refunding the cash to Davids, but wont be using the points either so i'll have to find another place to rent them for me...ugh...

Anyone else get the $2 offer? Thoughts as to why he is doing this?


----------



## Dracula

DVC BLT said:


> I'm an owner renting my points through Davids.  Was contacted today that the renter doesnt want to take the trip in November due to COVID.  Offered me $2 additional per point if I agree to let him change the name on the reservation, but no mention of a new contract with new terms?  I'm concerned about a 2nd outbreak and the new person wanting to cancel.  With that said, i've read some of this thread and its opened my eyes to how difficult it must be for the renter as well.  I'm trying to decide between just taking the points back or changing the name.  Any pros / cons?  I'm open to refunding the cash to Davids, but wont be using the points either so i'll have to find another place to rent them for me...ugh...
> 
> Anyone else get the $2 offer? Thoughts as to why he is doing this?


Go for it - you just make more money for a call to Member Services. From your standpoint as an owner, it should not matter which renter gets to enjoy your timeshare.


----------



## AquaDame

DVC BLT said:


> I'm an owner renting my points through Davids.  Was contacted today that the renter doesnt want to take the trip in November due to COVID.  Offered me $2 additional per point if I agree to let him change the name on the reservation, but no mention of a new contract with new terms?  I'm concerned about a 2nd outbreak and the new person wanting to cancel.  With that said, i've read some of this thread and its opened my eyes to how difficult it must be for the renter as well.  I'm trying to decide between just taking the points back or changing the name.  Any pros / cons?  I'm open to refunding the cash to Davids, but wont be using the points either so i'll have to find another place to rent them for me...ugh...
> 
> Anyone else get the $2 offer? Thoughts as to why he is doing this?



If its under a new contract I wouldn't... if you can keep the same contract and really just change the name, sure. I also would lean towards not refunding the money to David's. The renter is still going to get a voucher, not a refund. 

I'm wondering if he is really finding that many renters to swap in all of a sudden... I'd love to offload my reservation (but not for a voucher so I'm still waffling).


----------



## SherylLC

WDWEPCOT said:


> I think it’s a money grab and he’s trying to gain some goodwill doing it but plain and simple it’s a money grab fir his house of cards
> Bottom line it ties up your 30% for all of eternity but if you accept the fact that you may never get it - no harm - the issues come with you the Owner having to book new people again and God forbid this happens again because per David’s I’m rebooking under the terms of my original contract NOT the new contract language so if we have another closure I’m not rebooking a third time because by then my points will be toast !!





DVC BLT said:


> I'm an owner renting my points through Davids.  Was contacted today that the renter doesnt want to take the trip in November due to COVID.  Offered me $2 additional per point if I agree to let him change the name on the reservation, but no mention of a new contract with new terms?  I'm concerned about a 2nd outbreak and the new person wanting to cancel.  With that said, i've read some of this thread and its opened my eyes to how difficult it must be for the renter as well.  I'm trying to decide between just taking the points back or changing the name.  Any pros / cons?  I'm open to refunding the cash to Davids, but wont be using the points either so i'll have to find another place to rent them for me...ugh...
> 
> Anyone else get the $2 offer? Thoughts as to why he is doing this?


The $2 offer was the one I received as well. I replied I would rebook for a new family, but because I have heard he is not paying Owners I'd need the 30% plus the $2/point upon confirmation of reservation AND original contract terms would apply. My points expire in November for a September reservation. I have not heard back.


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## RachStu

I’m sure I read in a previous post that David had offered some renters the ability to rebook for an additional $3 per point. There was some discussion as to whether he would offer any part of this to the owners.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Go for it - you just make more money for a call to Member Services. From your standpoint as an owner, it should not matter which renter gets to enjoy your timeshare.



I would add that any owner willing should get it in writing that if the resort closes again for any reason, they will not be held responsible to refund money as new contracts say...if that is something that matters.


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## La2kw

Wow, finally made it through all 197 pages!  Thank you to all of you who contributed your information to this thread regarding this debacle.  I am an owner who rented points out through David's.  We have done it before and have always had a good experience- quick and easy.  This situation is disappointing because if I do return the $$, the renters do not get the cash and I don't think that is right.  Plus, the reservation I made starts before the reopening and ends after the reopening.  So the resort will be open during most of the renter's stay.  I don't know if I will get all my points back, or some of the points back, so I'm going to wait and see what DVC does.  The reservation is still active and has not been cancelled by DVC even though the check in date is less than two weeks away.

I tell you what though, I will not ever rent out points under this new contract or probably any other contract again.  It's bad enough that David's is keeping 100% of the renter's money even if I return the 70%, but then the new contract opens me up to losing money and points in a similar situation?  They clearly do not think too highly of us owners.

On the bright side, I guess I have a lot more DVC vacations in my future!


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## renda460

La2kw said:


> Plus, the reservation I made starts before the reopening and ends after the reopening.  So the resort will be open during most of the renter's stay.  I don't know if I will get all my points back, or some of the points back, so I'm going to wait and see what DVC does.  The reservation is still active and has not been cancelled by DVC even though the check in date is less than two weeks away.



I am also waiting to see how the reservations around the opening period will be handled.  I rented out my points through David's for a stay that occurs entirely when the resorts are open, but only includes a couple days of the parks being opened.  I am curious if the renters will have the option to cancel for a voucher through Davids, and if they do, will my points have an extended expiration.  If not, the points will expire July 31.  All the DVC documention just mentions points being extended through the end of the closure, but they don't specify if that means closure of the resorts or parks.


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## Sandisw

renda460 said:


> I am also waiting to see how the reservations around the opening period will be handled.  I rented out my points through David's for a stay that occurs entirely when the resorts are open, but only includes a couple days of the parks being opened.  I am curious if the renters will have the option to cancel for a voucher through Davids, and if they do, will my points have an extended expiration.  If not, the points will expire July 31.  All the DVC documention just mentions points being extended through the end of the closure, but they don't specify if that means closure of the resorts or parks.



Closure of parks.  If resorts are open, then other then the return of borrowed points,,,which can change at any time...no other exceptions apply.


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## HikingFam

I didn't see a discussion anywhere about other DVC rental companies' practices (if I missed it, will someone please direct me?), but we rented through a different company that says as long as the hotel itself is open, we either keep the reservation or lose all our money.  I would much rather take a voucher (as questionable as David's longevity may be) than lose $5,000.  With a higher risk person in our party and a child with disabilities who will not wear a mask, I don't see any other option.  Wondering if there is any point in pushing the issue.  If anyone has advice, I would love to chat with you.


----------



## Dracula

HikingFam said:


> I didn't see a discussion anywhere about other DVC rental companies' practices (if I missed it, will someone please direct me?), but we rented through a different company that says as long as the hotel itself is open, we either keep the reservation or lose all our money.  I would much rather take a voucher (as questionable as David's longevity may be) than lose $5,000.  With a higher risk person in our party and a child with disabilities who will not wear a mask, I don't see any other option.  Wondering if there is any point in pushing the issue.  If anyone has advice, I would love to chat with you.


You still have a few things to try:
1) Ask to reschedule the reservation at a later time.
2) Ask for a guest name change and rent the reservation privately.
3) Ask if it is possible to cancel altogether and get a 50% refund.


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## starry_solo

HikingFam said:


> I didn't see a discussion anywhere about other DVC rental companies' practices (if I missed it, will someone please direct me?), but we rented through a different company that says as long as the hotel itself is open, we either keep the reservation or lose all our money.  I would much rather take a voucher (as questionable as David's longevity may be) than lose $5,000.  With a higher risk person in our party and a child with disabilities who will not wear a mask, I don't see any other option.  Wondering if there is any point in pushing the issue.  If anyone has advice, I would love to chat with you.



Did you buy the points protection policy?


----------



## HikingFam

starry_solo said:


> Did you buy the points protection policy?



No, because at the time the only reasons we would conceivably need to cancel would have been sickness, death in family, weather...all things that are covered by our existing travel insurance.  Never imagined there would be a pandemic and we would have no guarantee of even getting into the parks (half of our party doesn't have tickets yet).  Lesson learned, obviously!


----------



## lovethesun12

HikingFam said:


> I didn't see a discussion anywhere about other DVC rental companies' practices (if I missed it, will someone please direct me?), but we rented through a different company that says as long as the hotel itself is open, we either keep the reservation or lose all our money.  I would much rather take a voucher (as questionable as David's longevity may be) than lose $5,000.  With a higher risk person in our party and a child with disabilities who will not wear a mask, I don't see any other option.  Wondering if there is any point in pushing the issue.  If anyone has advice, I would love to chat with you.


I've read a lot on this and in my opinion there are many other companies that aren't doing as much for renters as David's. It doesn't hurt to ask though.


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## cm8

lovethesun12 said:


> I've read a lot on this and in my opinion there are many other companies that aren't doing as much for renters as David's. It doesn't hurt to ask though.


Wow really?


----------



## starry_solo

Dracula said:


> As an owner, I would certainly change the names on a reservation to help the renter recover some money. And if a broker pays $2 per point to do so, within the framework of the existing contract, would be even happy to do it.



I think it’s $50 they offer if The lead guest changes under the points protection plan. However, as I read the agreement, it appearsto also require the member to add or delete guests from the reservation, other than the lead guest, without additional compensation


----------



## RachStu

HikingFam said:


> Thank you - it is.  Maybe I underestimate what is involved in changing the name on the reservation, but it seems like a small thing for an owner to do to help someone in this unprecedented situation.  I can understand refusing to reschedule or cancel if the owner's points are about to expire, but changing names seems minor in the grand scheme of things.  I'm the lead guest, so good to know that we may be able to change other guests' names if we go (since half of our party almost definitely can't go unless the virus miraculously disappears before September).



I think it would normally be pretty easy to change the lead guest’s name. You would simply call member services to do this (I don’t believe the lead guest’s name can be changed online). However, at the moment it’s really hard to get through to Member Services on the phone. I got the engaged tone 20+ times when I tried and when i did get through I was told there was a wait time of 70 mins to speak to someone. I gave up and sent an email. Five days later I’ve yet to receive a reply to that. So, it can be a bit tricky at the moment to make those sorts of changes. Hopefully things will settle down soon. It’s certainly a change I would make for any of my renters if requested, provided I could actually get through.


----------



## CraigInPA

renda460 said:


> I am also waiting to see how the reservations around the opening period will be handled.  I rented out my points through David's for a stay that occurs entirely when the resorts are open, but only includes a couple days of the parks being opened.  I am curious if the renters will have the option to cancel for a voucher through Davids, and if they do, will my points have an extended expiration.  If not, the points will expire July 31.  All the DVC documention just mentions points being extended through the end of the closure, but they don't specify if that means closure of the resorts or parks.



If the resort is open, it is David's position that the contract is valid. If the renter chooses not to go, they lose everything. Recently, he started offering a "I'll try to re-rent the reservation" scheme for his customers, who would pay $3 per point if successful (i.e., they get a voucher for their full reservation amount less $3 per point). If unsuccessful, they lose everything.   I see it as unlikely that David's would be able to successfully re-rent the reservation when only part of the reservation includes times when the parks are open, as well as because it is clearly in the next few weeks (too short a window for most people). 

In your case, with points about to expire, and DVC unlikely to "extend" those points when the reservation is for a time when the resort is open, you will likely lose them. 

Regardless of what happens with the renter, your points are toast, so you should be paid the remainder of the rental price (i.e., the 30% withheld until check-in day). There are reports that David's is withholding this fee from some owners, and others he has stated that he would only pay it if they agree to re-rent the points. These positions are in direct conflict with the contract he signed with the owner, yet he believes he can get away with it so he's doing it.


----------



## New Mouse

HikingFam said:


> Thank you - it is.  Maybe I underestimate what is involved in changing the name on the reservation, but it seems like a small thing for an owner to do to help someone in this unprecedented situation.  I can understand refusing to reschedule or cancel if the owner's points are about to expire, but changing names seems minor in the grand scheme of things.  I'm the lead guest, so good to know that we may be able to change other guests' names if we go (since half of our party almost definitely can't go unless the virus miraculously disappears before September).



In the case of Davids, he is not even paying out money owed to owners right now.  In many cases, thats thousands of dollars.   Without an immediate payment from Davids, I wouldnt even consider it.   The issue you are nentioning is between the renter and the place they purchased from, not the owner...so it would take a concession from all 3.


----------



## renda460

CraigInPA said:


> There are reports that David's is withholding this fee from some owners, and others he has stated that he would only pay it if they agree to re-rent the points. These positions are in direct conflict with the contract he signed with the owner, yet he believes he can get away with it so he's doing it.


I had another reservation I made for a renter in April which never happened.  David's contacted me and asked me to return the 70%.  I said no, so they asked if I would be willing to eventually re-rent those points.  I said yes.  I still have not received the final 30% on that reservation.  I assumed it would come if/when a new reservation I make has their check in.  Originally I did not push for the money back because I felt bad for the renters and had assumed it would go back to them.  Reading here, I see the renters are getting at best a voucher, and no refunds.  In hindsight I should have pushed for my 30% and still continued to be open to renting out those points for someone else, with no later on compensation if a rental actually occurs.


----------



## renda460

Does anyone have any insight into renters who may have purchased cancel anytime Insurance and gotten a refund?  If this happened, David's is off the hook and no voucher is given, correct?  For any reservations where this occurred, is David's paying out the other 30% to the owner?  Or are they still keeping that portion of the payment?  As owners, we really have no way of knowing if our renters got a refund from Insurance or not.


----------



## Sandisw

Please remember to post the link to a business. I have had to delete posts that did not, 

Remember, if a business is filtered, we can not discuss it here on the DiS,  By providing the link,..you will know via preview if it will show up..if not, then don’t work around things by posting a name,  

Updates can be made to the filter, so it’s always good to confirm. Thank you.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> In the case of Davids, he is not even paying out money owed to owners right now.  In many cases, thats thousands of dollars.   Without an immediate payment from Davids, I wouldnt even consider it.   The issue you are nentioning is between the renter and the place they purchased from, not the owner...so it would take a concession from all 3.



Exactly.  And, to be honest, the debate of how easy or hard it is for  an owner to me isn’t the issue,  The issue is that all of a sudden if an owner wants to see their contract fulfilled and not get involved in changes when Resort is open, seem to be be labeled as selfish.

If a resort being open but a renter not wanting to go doesn’t fall into the no changes clause, I don’t know what does.

I am all for the contacting of individual owners and if they want to change, great...but if not, IMO, a renter should not be upset with an owner for making the choice to not have to do anything more.


----------



## SherylLC

Sandisw said:


> Exactly.  And, to be honest, the debate of how easy or hard it is for  an owner to me isn’t the issue,  The issue is that all of a sudden if an owner wants to see their contract fulfilled and not get involved in changes when Resort is open, seem to be be labeled as selfish.
> 
> If a resort being open but a renter not wanting to go doesn’t fall into the no changes clause, I don’t know what does.
> 
> I am all for the contacting of individual owners and if they want to change, great...but if not, IMO, a renter should not be upset with an owner for making the choice to not have to do anything more.


I have been trying to get through to Member Services off and on for two weeks. I sent an email about a week ago and have not heard back. We're trying to get our small business up and running again so I don't have all day to keep calling (constant busy signals) or checking the website for chat availability.  But I have placed at least 30 calls and constantly check member website throughout the day for chat. I am hesitant to contact my renters directly since I am not even sure I can transfer their reservations due to this and the fact of point expiration limitations and availability of rooms. This latter part took a while for me to understand so explaining it to a non-member could be a nightmare. I guess my point is this: being willing to make changes and being ABLE to make changes are not one and the same. I agree with Sandisw, it is not selfish, it may fall to practical matters and limitations.

Also, I do not want David's coming after me for damages to the renter for changing/cancelling reservations.


----------



## HikingFam

SherylLC said:


> I have been trying to get through to Member Services off and on for two weeks. I sent an email about a week ago and have not heard back. We're trying to get our small business up and running again so I don't have all day to keep calling (constant busy signals) or checking the website for chat availability.  But I have placed at least 30 calls and constantly check member website throughout the day for chat. I am hesitant to contact my renters directly since I am not even sure I can transfer their reservations due to this and the fact of point expiration limitations and availability of rooms. This latter part took a while for me to understand so explaining it to a non-member could be a nightmare. I guess my point is this: being willing to make changes and being ABLE to make changes are not one and the same. I agree with Sandisw, it is not selfish, it may fall to practical matters and limitations.
> 
> Also, I do not want David's coming after me for damages to the renter for changing/cancelling reservations.



See, I didn't know that an owner would have to go to this much trouble just to change the name.  That makes more sense now that it isn't as simple as going online and making a change.  Just to be clear, I am not blaming owners at all here.  It is a crappy situation all around.  It just doesn't feel fair to me that they keep my $5,000 and then the rental company rents the same points to someone else, so that someone in the equation is getting paid twice (I assume it's not the owner).


----------



## starry_solo

renda460 said:


> Does anyone have any insight into renters who may have purchased cancel anytime Insurance and gotten a refund?  If this happened, David's is off the hook and no voucher is given, correct?  For any reservations where this occurred, is David's paying out the other 30% to the owner?  Or are they still keeping that portion of the payment?  As owners, we really have no way of knowing if our renters got a refund from Insurance or not.



So far, we haven't heard from anyone with CFAR insurance who has actually filed or been successful with a claim.  Early on, someone posted that their CFAR insurance should cover them.  However, that poster never came back to say whether they actually filed with the CFAR and whether it covered them.

The issue that some posters saw is that the CFAR insurance is if the INSURED (the one buying the policy) cancels the trip, NOT if the trip is cancelled on them by the provider.  Plus CFAR insurance typically would provide 50-75% of non-refundable costs.  So, whether the insurance company considers a voucher offered by David's an acceptable solution is a crapshoot.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

HikingFam said:


> See, I didn't know that an owner would have to go to this much trouble just to change the name.  That makes more sense now that it isn't as simple as going online and making a change.  Just to be clear, I am not blaming owners at all here.  It is a crappy situation all around.  It just doesn't feel fair to me that they keep my $5,000 and then the rental company rents the same points to someone else, so that *someone in the equation is getting paid twice (I assume it's not the owner).*


----------



## SherylLC

HikingFam said:


> See, I didn't know that an owner would have to go to this much trouble just to change the name.  That makes more sense now that it isn't as simple as going online and making a change.  Just to be clear, I am not blaming owners at all here.  It is a crappy situation all around.  It just doesn't feel fair to me that they keep my $5,000 and then the rental company rents the same points to someone else, so that someone in the equation is getting paid twice (I assume it's not the owner).


Thank you for your response. Under normal circumstances, it may be inconvenient, but not a ton of trouble, in my opinion anyway. And you are correct, the owner is not paid twice, the intermediary is (although they are likely also "losing" overall  due to what is going on). No winners anywhere...


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

This is my recollection as well except I don't recall a single person coming forward and claiming that the add on trip insurance got them money back.  I recall a different poster claiming that happened, yet not being able to locate the claim.  I believe you are spot on about who has to cancel and there are limitations on when it is cancelled plus lots of other fine print.



starry_solo said:


> So far, we haven't heard from anyone with CFAR insurance who has actually filed or been successful with a claim.  Early on, someone posted that their CFAR insurance should cover them.  However, that poster never came back to say whether they actually filed with the CFAR and whether it covered them.
> 
> The issue that some posters saw is that the CFAR insurance is if the INSURED (the one buying the policy) cancels the trip, NOT if the trip is cancelled on them by the provider.  Plus CFAR insurance typically would provide 50-75% of non-refundable costs.  So, whether the insurance company considers a voucher offered by David's an acceptable solution is a crapshoot.


----------



## Sandisw

HikingFam said:


> See, I didn't know that an owner would have to go to this much trouble just to change the name.  That makes more sense now that it isn't as simple as going online and making a change.  Just to be clear, I am not blaming owners at all here.  It is a crappy situation all around.  It just doesn't feel fair to me that they keep my $5,000 and then the rental company rents the same points to someone else, so that someone in the equation is getting paid twice (I assume it's not the owner).



Actually, that won’t happen with a resort open.  If the owner does not want to change the name, then they will simply let the reservation stand, lose the points, and get their full pay.

Unless another option is presented by the owner, that is how it works,  I know I will be proposing a solution if my renter doesn’t want to go, but it will be up to David’s if he wants to accept it on behalf of the renter


----------



## starry_solo

HikingFam said:


> See, I didn't know that an owner would have to go to this much trouble just to change the name.  That makes more sense now that it isn't as simple as going online and making a change.  Just to be clear, I am not blaming owners at all here.  It is a crappy situation all around.  It just doesn't feel fair to me that they keep my $5,000 and then the rental company rents the same points to someone else, so that someone in the equation is getting paid twice (I assume it's not the owner).



look at your contract to see what the terms say about changing names. Maybe you can get help that way


----------



## AquaDame

I've heard a few people mention "holding" being suspended during the park closure (I assume once the resorts open June 22nd they'll stop waiving that, right?). Am I correct in reading about it that as long as you cancel more than one month out the points are returned normally for your use year? Sorry for not understanding, I'm a renter, not an owner. Just trying to make sure me sitting on my reservation while I see what happens isn't going to make it even worse for the owner when we likely cancel. 

I assume my owners either play ball with the voucher system or be disinclined whether I do that now or in a few more weeks when Disney finally releases more details. I do wish I knew a little more about them... if I knew for a fact my reservation is right at the end of their window to use the points I wouldn't bother them with asking.


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> Actually, that won’t happen with a resort open.  If the owner does not want to change the name, then they will simply let the reservation stand, lose the points, and get their full pay.
> 
> Unless another option is presented by the owner, that is how it works,  I know I will be proposing a solution if my renter doesn’t want to go, but it will be up to David’s if he wants to accept it on behalf of the renter



If I don't check in, doesn't the owner have the ability to take some of their points back?


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> If I don't check in, doesn't the owner have the ability to take some of their points back?



All points are lost as of day of check in,  In order for the owner to get any points, they’d have to cancel at least day before, and if they do that, they violated the contract with David’s

So, if an owner decides not to allow changes in dates or names, they will not be keeping points


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> All points are lost as of day of check in,  In order for the owner to get any points, they’d have to cancel at least day before, and if they do that, they violated the contract with David’s
> 
> So, if an owner decides not to allow changes in dates or names, they will not be keeping points



Thank you! Looks like I'll need to contact Davids any way you slice it then, so no reason not to ask.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> Thank you! Looks like I'll need to contact Davids any way you slice it then, so no reason not to ask.



Yup! There do seem to be some posts that David’s is offering owners incentives...a few $$ more per point to do it...so, you have a chance thst it may be enough for your owner to do something!


----------



## Jen4400

We  borrowed points and couldn't go, so we rented out our existing reservation in May.  Since it was cancelled, David's gave us the option to return the 70% or let them rent out the points again.  In the end, we just returned the money.  We didn't lose the points because of the policy change, and we didn't want to deal with renting them out anymore.  I did inquire about how they were handling renters who purchased trip insurance that may have covered the cancellation.  Here's their response...

'Unfortunately, for the most part Travel Insurance companies haven't been covering COVID19 closures or cancellations as it is a pandemic, which is rarely covered even in 'cancel for any reason' policies. In the instance that the guest has insurance, we are managing this on a case by case basis.'


----------



## rstamm

David’s asked me to use my points for a different family he won’t let the current family rebook with my points.

I asked for the 30% I’m owed when he confirms the new reservation and he said only after they pay and it’s in 2020 not sure what that means and no offer of extra money.


----------



## Sandisw

rstamm said:


> David’s asked me to use my points for a different family he won’t let the current family rebook with my points.
> 
> I asked for the 30% I’m owed when he confirms the new reservation and he said only after they pay and it’s in 2020 not sure what that means and no offer of extra money.



Thanks.  Is this for a reservation during the time when the resorts are open? Or was it when closed.


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## rstamm

It’s 1 day before they open I actually thought they’d just cancel the one day but I guess the whole reservation will be canceled 

I guess only certain people get offered extra for changing
Disappointed I’d have to wait months more for my 30% already waited about 11 months


----------



## Maddiesmum03

rstamm said:


> It’s 1 day before they open I actually thought they’d just cancel the one day but I guess the whole reservation will be canceled
> 
> I guess only certain people get offered extra for changing
> Disappointed I’d have to wait months more for my 30% already waited about 11 months


Dig your heels in and say you will only rent the points if you get paid the final 30% at the time of booking and that you will only re rent under the same terms as the original rental and not accept a new contract. They need our points, otherwise their voucher scheme is worthless!
My re rental was for March 2021, so I will get the extra $1 on check in day.


----------



## La2kw

rstamm said:


> It’s 1 day before they open I actually thought they’d just cancel the one day but I guess the whole reservation will be canceled
> 
> I guess only certain people get offered extra for changing
> Disappointed I’d have to wait months more for my 30% already waited about 11 months



Do you know for sure that the whole reservation will be cancelled?  I’m trying to find out the same thing.  Their Checkin date is the 19th but most of the reservation is after the opening.  I have had no luck getting through to DVC.


----------



## owensjro

I know this isn't entirely relevant to the thread as it doesn't involve DVC points but I found this article today in our local news about a vacation rental company offering credit vs. a refund and it was an interesting read nonetheless. Just shows that David's isn't the only one out there doing this, but in this case it doesn't look like it will fly!
https://abc11.com/business/lawsuit-...fusing-to-give-refunds-amid-covid-19/6237685/


----------



## Sandisw

La2kw said:


> Do you know for sure that the whole reservation will be cancelled?  I’m trying to find out the same thing.  Their Checkin date is the 19th but most of the reservation is after the opening.  I have had no luck getting through to DVC.



DVC seems to be canceling all so unless an owner modifies it, it will be canceled in its entirety


----------



## Bearval

M


Sandisw said:


> DVC seems to be canceling all so unless an owner modifies it, it will be canceled in its entirety





owensjro said:


> I know this isn't entirely relevant to the thread as it doesn't involve DVC points but I found this article today in our local news about a vacation rental company offering credit vs. a refund and it was an interesting read nonetheless. Just shows that David's isn't the only one out there doing this, but in this case it doesn't look like it will fly!
> https://abc11.com/business/lawsuit-...fusing-to-give-refunds-amid-covid-19/6237685/


But it is relevant in the fact that the issue is with the intermediary and contracts that cannot be executed.  He has to give a refund and is hoping renters take the voucher and sign away their rights by accepting the vouchers and new contracts.


----------



## Grnl706

Another update;

Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;

"Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns. 

 The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.

With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months. 

 While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.

We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.  






We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.   

If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."

I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.


----------



## SherylLC

Grnl706 said:


> Another update;
> 
> Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;
> 
> "Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns.
> 
> The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months.
> 
> While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."
> 
> I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.


I'm sorry you're in this position--it stinks! I like how he says "I told you to buy travel insurance"! He knows full well that pandemic is probably not covered!


----------



## Grnl706

Exactly. I'm lucky I did have travel insurance and I have a situation that actually may apply. I do have a claim out with travel insurance that is just going to take a long time to resolve but I refuse to even acknowledge that to him. It's not the point! At first I felt bad about doing a charge back but the "I told you so" attitude is just too far. It's very difficult not to respond.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Grnl706 said:


> Another update;
> 
> Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;
> 
> "Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns.
> 
> The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months.
> 
> While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."
> 
> I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.


You’re not wrong. This response from David’s has been going on for months and is the basis for chargeback attempts.


----------



## Sandisw

Grnl706 said:


> Exactly. I'm lucky I did have travel insurance and I have a situation that actually may apply. I do have a claim out with travel insurance that is just going to take a long time to resolve but I refuse to even acknowledge that to him. It's not the point! At first I felt bad about doing a charge back but the "I told you so" attitude is just too far. It's very difficult not to respond.



There has been one report that the voucher offer was enough for the travel insurance to be denied,

But, we have had mostly successful stories of chargebacks,  It is interesting that he failed to mention that money refunded by owners is being kept and not given to renters even when they were in the position to do it,

Good luck.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

I always find this kind of thing funny.  A quote from the https://abc11.com/business/lawsuit-...fusing-to-give-refunds-amid-covid-19/6237685/   This says volumes about their 'customer service' and fault.

_"Dear Guests,

After much consideration, we have decided not to issue cash refunds to guests who had reservations between the dates of 4/4/20 and 5/15/20. We are however offering a dollar for dollar credit towards another stay either this year or next year. Hundreds of guests have already accepted this offer. *Dare County's decision to close the road was not something that could not have been anticipated and is neither the fault of our guests or our homeowners*. ... 

This offer is a change from our long-standing policy and lease agreement, which very clearly states that there are no refunds for access issues. *We have never before offered any form of compensation for road closures, which are fairly common occurrences on Hatteras Island*. However, because of the unprecedented nature of this event, we wanted to do something to help our guests. This option will only be available until June 19, 2020, so we encourage you to take advantage of it soon._ "


----------



## Brianstl

Grnl706 said:


> Another update;
> 
> Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;
> 
> "Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns.
> 
> The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months.
> 
> While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."
> 
> I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.


You should remind them in your reply that your contract does have refund language in it when it comes to the accommodations not being available on check in day.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Grnl706 said:


> Another update;
> 
> Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;
> 
> "Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns.
> 
> The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months.
> 
> While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."
> 
> I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.





yankeesfan123 said:


> You’re not wrong. This response from David’s has been going on for months and is the basis for chargeback attempts.


Yup.  That appears to be the same form letter they've been sending out for months now.


----------



## Bearval

Grnl706 said:


> Another update;
> 
> Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;
> 
> "Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns.
> 
> The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months.
> 
> While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."
> 
> I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.


I like how he added that part about his legal partners.   You have a unexacutible contract,  so the contract is invalid and his no refund policy is null and void.  He is hoping you will accept the voucher and not do a chargeback.


----------



## yankeesfan123

Bearval said:


> I like how he added that part about his legal partners.   You have a unexacutible contract,  so the contract is invalid and his no refund policy is null and void.  He is hoping you will accept the voucher and not do a chargeback.


While I’m pro-chargeback, I’m pretty sure there have been some reports of them failing.


----------



## momincolorado

Grnl706 said:


> Another update;
> 
> Travel insurance is going to take a very long time to come to a decision but I can cancel my claim at any time so I started the work to begin a charge back. I emailed David's requesting a refund and this is the response I got;
> 
> "Thanks so much for reaching out.  We certainly understand your concerns.
> 
> The world is in an unprecedented situation that no one was prepared for. Although we have a no refund policy, we understand the stress that this situation might have placed on you. While some owners have been eager to help, not many are in the position to issue refunds. Those who have offered points back, may have restrictions on those points that make them less than attractive for future travel.
> 
> With the assistance of our legal partners and as a token of our goodwill, we feel that we have come up with a program that gives you time and choices in travel. We are going to replace the points you rented with a Travel Credit in the amount of funds you originally paid. This Travel Credit will enable you to apply it towards another rental at a Disney Vacation Club Resort, or apply it towards other travel venues that we offer such as Disney Cruise Line, Adventures by Disney, Regular Disney Resort Bookings and Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, subject to the guidelines and conditions of the Travel Credit.  As well as the Travel Credit is now valid for 36 months.
> 
> While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly the frustration with this situation.  If you have travel insurance please let us know as we can provide you with documentation for you to make an insurance claim.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns please let us know.  Thank you."
> 
> I'm extremely frustrated that they're acting like they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. The contract specifically says my funds were in exchange for what my cancelled reservation was. That doesn't exist, so he owes me money, plain and simple. I at least have that I asked for a refund and he declined. I thought about asking about a partial refund and just eating that $3 per point but I doubt he'd even do that. My owner was already in contact with me via email and told me David's already approached her back in May about re-renting her points. I can't wait until this is over, this is just so frustrating all around. Contrary to what they say, this is not what I agreed to.


Since they appear to be standing by their original rental agreement (albeit only on the renter’s end, lol) I would ask them why not simply offer the voucher under the same terms? Their “token of goodwill” is only extended after you agree to new contract terms; therefore, they are essentially offering nothing in place of the product that was not delivered (I assume your reservation is during resorts’ closure). This is not a case of closure being nobody’s fault so they offer something of similar/same value at a later date; in this case, the new contract substitution substantially diminishes the product replacement’s (voucher) value. Make sure you keep all communication as supporting docs to your chargeback in case your credit card issuer requests it. So far, we have seen Chase customers being successful or at least I have not seen any denials from Chase, I think there was a Citi credit card insurance denial and one chargeback initial denial - I think this was BoA.


----------



## Bearval

yankeesfan123 said:


> While I’m pro-chargeback, I’m pretty sure there have been some reports of them failing.


I think the ones that have failed so far are because they were submitted too early or they failed to inform their CC company that at the  time the intermediary didn't have a policy for vouchers as a method of refunds when they signed the contract.  His no refunds policy only had to do if the renter defaulted.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Bearval said:


> I like how he added that part about his legal partners.



For those of you who may have missed this in another thread...


----------



## lawboy2001

Bearval said:


> I think the ones that have failed so far are because they were submitted too early or they failed to inform their CC company that at the  time the intermediary didn't have a policy for vouchers as a method of refunds when they signed the contract.  His no refunds policy only had to do if the renter defaulted.



I suspect the same.....that card holders doing chargebacks are not making clear to the CC company that the voucher is offered only upon making a new agreement, with less favourable terms, rather than as a replacement for the initial reservation.


----------



## Princess Michele

I rented my out points through David's for a trip starting 6/16/20.  I was contacted by David's about either refunding the 70% or re-renting my points.  I notified David's of my decision and we are waiting for DVC to cancel the reservation.  I have been checking daily and it has not been canceled yet.  The reservation begins in 6 days.  I know I cannot cancel the reservation due to the rental agreement.  Should I contact Member Services to inquire about the reservation or just continue to wait?  Thank you.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

My rented points Resv starts in 5 days still not cancelled I expect it to be cancelled tonight 
I’m just letting this play out - I have faith that DVC will cancel and put my points back - now David renting them before DVC returns them to their proper use year not so much faith but that will be his problem


----------



## lawboy2001

I had a reservation cancelled but the borrowed points were not put back into their original use year, but into the use year they were borrowed into.  I hope this will be corrected.  Once it is corrected and I know I have my points in the original use year I can decide what to do...


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

On one reservation (rented) the returning of points took 12 days, on the family reservation it took nearly 20 days.



lawboy2001 said:


> I had a reservation cancelled but the borrowed points were not put back into their original use year, but into the use year they were borrowed into.  I hope this will be corrected.  Once it is corrected and I know I have my points in the original use year I can decide what to do...


----------



## SherylLC

lawboy2001 said:


> I had a reservation cancelled but the borrowed points were not put back into their original use year, but into the use year they were borrowed into.  I hope this will be corrected.  Once it is corrected and I know I have my points in the original use year I can decide what to do...


It says it will take up to 15 days. I needed the points for a wait list so I called and they updated for me immediately.


----------



## Princess Michele

WDWEPCOT said:


> My rented points Resv starts in 5 days still not cancelled I expect it to be cancelled tonight
> I’m just letting this play out - I have faith that DVC will cancel and put my points back - now David renting them before DVC returns them to their proper use year not so much faith but that will be his problem


Thanks for the information.  I will continue to wait patiently and hope that the reservation is canceled in the next day or two.  Mine are current use year points so they should be returned right away.


----------



## Amymouse13

lawboy2001 said:


> I suspect the same.....that card holders doing chargebacks are not making clear to the CC company that the voucher is offered only upon making a new agreement, with less favourable terms, rather than as a replacement for the initial reservation.



I provided highlighted original contract, voucher with terms and brief letter... Still waiting on Citibank MasterCard.  So far boa visa corporate card has said no but they have resubmitted again after I was "insistent"... Fingers crossed


----------



## Kevin_W

Amymouse13 said:


> I provided highlighted original contract, voucher with terms and brief letter... Still waiting on Citibank MasterCard.  So far boa visa corporate card has said no but they have resubmitted again after I was "insistent"... Fingers crossed



Just my update -  I submitted to Chase 15 days ago and haven't heard anything, aside from 2 notes that they are really busy and will get back to me.


----------



## banzai75

Kevin_W said:


> Just my update -  I submitted to Chase 15 days ago and haven't heard anything, aside from 2 notes that they are really busy and will get back to me.


I submitted back on April 19 and still waiting.  I think I am close to hearing something soon as they havent gotten back for any additional info or anything.  This is with Chase.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

4days until checkin and still not cancelled guess DVC is waiting until last minute


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> 4days until checkin and still not cancelled guess DVC is waiting until last minute



Since everyone knows now resorts are closed, I am sure they are in no rush.  Many owners are probably canceling and moving on their own since we have dates.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m not about to break my contract !! I’ll let David be the one who does that!! I just take screen shots in case for some strange reason DVC misses this and doesn’t cancel but I think they will


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> I’m not about to break my contract !! I’ll let David be the one who does that!! I just take screen shots in case for some strange reason DVC misses this and doesn’t cancel but I think they will



Absolutely.  I wasn’t suggesting you cancel...just maybe why DVC isn’t rushing any more.


----------



## Deb & Bill

Princess Michele said:


> Thanks for the information.  I will continue to wait patiently and hope that the reservation is canceled in the next day or two.  Mine are current use year points so they should be returned right away.


You might even email MS and ask them about returning your borrowed points to the year they were borrowed from.  You should get some kind of a response from them.


----------



## Letty09

banzai75 said:


> I submitted back on April 19 and still waiting.  I think I am close to hearing something soon as they havent gotten back for any additional info or anything.  This is with Chase.


My chase claim got declined last week.  I submitted my claim May 7th. They never asked for any documents. Then just last week got the notice saying they found the charge “valid” because of Davids “no refunds policy.”


----------



## Amymouse13

Letty09 said:


> My chase claim got declined last week.  I submitted my claim May 7th. They never asked for any documents. Then just last week got the notice saying they found the charge “valid” because of Davids “no refunds policy.”



You can argue... especially if you didn't submit anything


----------



## starry_solo

Amymouse13 said:


> You can argue... especially if you didn't submit anything



Exactly.  Appeal the issue!


----------



## Bearval

Amymouse13 said:


> You can argue... especially if you didn't submit anything


I would challenge the denied claim since they didn't have all of the correct information from you about the situation.  They most likely went on David's stating their " no refunds policy".  I am sure David's didn't tell them that the "old" policy you had in your contract only had to do with no refunds if you had defaulted not if the room wasn't available.  Also I am sure they didn't tell them they wanted you to sign a new agreement that was different then the original.


----------



## Letty09

Bearval said:


> I would challenge the denied claim since they didn't have all of the correct information from you about the situation.  They most likely went on David's stating their " no refunds policy".  I am sure David's didn't tell them that the "old" policy you had in your contract only had to do with no refunds if you had defaulted not if the room wasn't available.  Also I am sure they didn't tell them they wanted you to sign a new agreement that was different then the original.


Yes I am going to resubmit another claim. I did explain that I didn’t receive services stated on contract and that the new voucher had very different terms and conditions that I could not accept. Davids sent their response with both original contract and the new voucher terms, with them pointing out where they suggested “getting travel” insurance because they had a no “refunds policy,” but that with the voucher they were overly meeting any requirement to customer.


----------



## SherylLC

Letty09 said:


> Yes I am going to resubmit another claim. I did explain that I didn’t receive services stated on contract and that the new voucher had very different terms and conditions that I could not accept. Davids sent their response with both original contract and the new voucher terms, with them pointing out where they suggested “getting travel” insurance because they had a no “refunds policy,” but that with the voucher they were overly meeting any requirement to customer.


I hope you win your renewed claim!

So, given David's argument against charge backs, he really has ZERO excuse for not paying owners!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

SherylLC said:


> I hope you win your renewed claim!
> 
> So, given David's argument against charge backs, he really has ZERO excuse for not paying owners!



 You're not supposed to notice that David's has one argument for renters and another for owners.


----------



## disneypharm

Grnl706 said:


> "While the COVID19 virus was not on the Horizon when you secured your reservation we were clear on our website, Terms and Conditions that you agreed to, as well as our Rental Agreement that you accepted;  we have a No Cancellation/No Refund policy.
> 
> We have also advised your party to Purchase Trip Insurance.



What a BS!!   He is basically lying to CC companies by saying that the contract was non-refundable without adding the section about if no accommodations are available, you get a full refund!!    And the bit about I told you to purchase a trip insurance is also disgusting.  I can't believe that Chase is declining a refund with only taking his information and not the customer.  I have a dispute still pending with Chase, so I will make sure to call them on Monday to let them know what he is doing!!  Ugh!!


----------



## Amymouse13

I know both of our disputes were Initially declined, but that is part of process.  You dispute, they contact him, he argues, they side with him, you present your side with evidence...

From this point bank of America visa declined ours again, I called multiple times arguing and they are reviewing again.

I'm still waiting on Citibank MasterCard.

I'm sure they bank on most folks giving up...


----------



## Grnl706

disneypharm said:


> What a BS!!   He is basically lying to CC companies by saying that the contract was non-refundable without adding the section about if no accommodations are available, you get a full refund!!    And the bit about I told you to purchase a trip insurance is also disgusting.  I can't believe that Chase is declining a refund with only taking his information and not the customer.  I have a dispute still pending with Chase, so I will make sure to call them on Monday to let them know what he is doing!!  Ugh!!


When I talked to Chase I kept pointing out that the original contract says my money was in exchange for X room and that room has been cancelled so I'm not getting the services I paid for. I told them about the voucher but that the voucher is not the same terms as the original contract so again, still not getting what I paid for. They did the initial credit to me but I am fully prepared to fight this. David's is so incredibly shady I hope no one uses them again. The funny thing is, I do have travel insurance and did file a claim I haven't heard back on yet. When I found out they were going by trip date vs submission date I decided to start the charge back since my room was cancelled around that same time. Travel insurance said they'd still reimburse whatever I don't get back if I was approved.  The charge back is what David's deserves, in my opinion. My argument will stand that he can't enforce anything in the original contract unless I get that exact confirmation number as it is in the contract and that is now impossible.


----------



## Grnl706

Bearval said:


> I would challenge the denied claim since they didn't have all of the correct information from you about the situation.  They most likely went on David's stating their " no refunds policy".  I am sure David's didn't tell them that the "old" policy you had in your contract only had to do with no refunds if you had defaulted not if the room wasn't available.  Also I am sure they didn't tell them they wanted you to sign a new agreement that was different then the original.


Is it beneficial to respond to David's voucher email detailing why it's not acceptable? Then if they try to submit only their email one would have the rebuttal on the same email trail ready to go? Since we now see his hand and see how he's trying to argue it.


----------



## Princess Michele

WDWEPCOT said:


> 4days until checkin and still not cancelled guess DVC is waiting until last minute


Just checking to see if DVC cancelled your reservation prior to today.  My rental reservation begins tomorrow and it has not been cancelled yet.  I emailed David's yesterday to let them know that is has not been cancelled since I am re-renting the points.  If the points are lost then I cannot re-rent and will not be giving the 70% back.  Thanks.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Shockingly no I checked this morning still sitting there - my points have not changed but the countdown clock to the next vacation is now showing but the June 15 Resv is still just sitting there if they don’t cancel tonight I’ll have to call them but I’m not cancelling as that would be me breaking the contract and we all know only David is allowed to break his worthless contracts


----------



## Princess Michele

WDWEPCOT said:


> Shockingly no I checked this morning still sitting there - my points have not changed but the countdown clock to the next vacation is now showing but the June 15 Resv is still just sitting there if they don’t cancel tonight I’ll have to call them but I’m not cancelling as that would be me breaking the contract and we all know only David is allowed to break his worthless contracts


David's just responded to my email and gave me permission to call DVC and have them cancel so the points are not lost.  I will call them this afternoon after I finish helping my son with his schoolwork.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Good luck ! Took me several tries to get them and then an hour on hold


----------



## WDWEPCOT

DVC just called me about the Resv 
Gave me options to cancel or to modify 
Informed me the dining plan had already been refunded - hmm I had to call to add how did it get refunded ?? Did Disney do it in their own ?? 
DVC is returning borrowed points immediately so that will be a problem for me to rent the point again with the borrowing rules oh well nothing I can do about that it is what it is
Very surprised they called as always my experience with Member Service always excellent top notch !!


----------



## Princess Michele

I just received a call from DVC also about my reservation and asked if I wanted to cancel or modify. I told them to cancel. My points were current use year and banked.  I have a July rental also and they asked if I wanted to reallocate the banked points to July.  I said yes and MS made the switch. Now to wait and see if the July rental cancels. Service was excellent also.


----------



## Sandisw

WDWEPCOT said:


> DVC just called me about the Resv
> Gave me options to cancel or to modify
> Informed me the dining plan had already been refunded - hmm I had to call to add how did it get refunded ?? Did Disney do it in their own ??
> DVC is returning borrowed points immediately so that will be a problem for me to rent the point again with the borrowing rules oh well nothing I can do about that it is what it is
> Very surprised they called as always my experience with Member Service always excellent top notch !!



Dining plans were refunded to original form of payment. That was done by Disney...not DVC.


----------



## SherylLC

Do renters using David's usually get owners name and contact info?


----------



## SageG

SherylLC said:


> Do renters using David's usually get owners name and contact info?


I only have the owners name on my contracts, but no contact information.  Someone reported on a previous page that when their contract was emailed to them, David's forgot to BCC the parties involved so they had the owners' email address, but unfortunately that is not the case for my rentals.


----------



## Debbie Jean

No.

The owners name will be on the contract, however, depending on how common it is, you may be able to find contact information yourself.

Keep in mind that many owners use David’s to rent out points specifically because they do not have to deal with the renter directly and David’s does not encourage this. Any issues you may have should be directed to David’s.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Grnl706 said:


> When I talked to Chase I kept pointing out that the original contract says my money was in exchange for X room and that room has been cancelled so I'm not getting the services I paid for. I told them about the voucher but that the voucher is not the same terms as the original contract so again, still not getting what I paid for. They did the initial credit to me but I am fully prepared to fight this. David's is so incredibly shady I hope no one uses them again. The funny thing is, I do have travel insurance and did file a claim I haven't heard back on yet. When I found out they were going by trip date vs submission date I decided to start the charge back since my room was cancelled around that same time. Travel insurance said they'd still reimburse whatever I don't get back if I was approved.  The charge back is what David's deserves, in my opinion. My argument will stand that he can't enforce anything in the original contract unless I get that exact confirmation number as it is in the contract and that is now impossible.


I got an initial refund of my money with my CC company back on May 1st for a canceled trip on April 18th-25th through David's.  They asked for information up front and I pasted the portion of my original contract stating that I was entitled to a room and if I didn't received said room I was due a full refund.  I also gave them all the information including the reservation info and they said they thought that was more than enough to win my dispute.  It's now June 16th, the refunded money is still on my credit card (woe is me if one morning I come to check my bank account and see another 4500 dollar charge posted to my credit card) and no word back from my bank since then.  They told me that if I was worried about the process not going through to just not spend the refund until end of May.  I'm wondering if 45 days is enough at this point.  I also never responded in any way to David's email asking me to accept the terms for a credit and that was not mentioned on my claim either.


----------



## SageG

foodiddiedoo said:


> I got an initial refund of my money with my CC company back on May 1st for a canceled trip on April 18th-25th through David's.  They asked for information up front and I pasted the portion of my original contract stating that I was entitled to a room and if I didn't received said room I was due a full refund.  I also gave them all the information including the reservation info and they said they thought that was more than enough to win my dispute.  It's now June 16th, the refunded money is still on my credit card (woe is me if one morning I come to check my bank account and see another 4500 dollar charge posted to my credit card) and no word back from my bank since then.  They told me that if I was worried about the process not going through to just not spend the refund until end of May.  I'm wondering if 45 days is enough at this point.  I also never responded in any way to David's email asking me to accept the terms for a credit and that was not mentioned on my claim either.


I spoke to Chase again today to get a status update on my disputes.  I've spoken to three different Chase reps at this point and two have told me that David's has two billing cycles to respond while a third said he only has 30 days.  I'm guessing the two billing cycles is the correct answer.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

SageG said:


> I spoke to Chase again today to get a status update on my disputes.  I've spoken to three different Chase reps at this point and two have told me that David's has two billing cycles to respond while a third said he only has 30 days.  I'm guessing the two billing cycles is the correct answer.


So if my dispute information was deemed complete by April 28th, I'd assume two billing cycles is 2 months?  At this point I'll just hold my breath until the end of July.


----------



## Kevin_W

SageG said:


> I spoke to Chase again today to get a status update on my disputes.  I've spoken to three different Chase reps at this point and two have told me that David's has two billing cycles to respond while a third said he only has 30 days.  I'm guessing the two billing cycles is the correct answer.



Thanks for that update.  I haven't spoken with anyone at Chase, just corresponded electronically and have gotten the "we're looking into it" response.


----------



## SherylLC

Debbie Jean said:


> No.
> 
> The owners name will be on the contract, however, depending on how common it is, you may be able to find contact information yourself.
> 
> Keep in mind that many owners use David’s to rent out points specifically because they do not have to deal with the renter directly and David’s does not encourage this. Any issues you may have should be directed to David’s.


Ya, well I'm an owner. I rescheduled for two different renters and David's has twice put my email (not BCC'd) to them in the new contract confirmation. I really didn't need one more reason to dislike David's...so sloppy!


----------



## Bing Showei

SherylLC said:


> Ya, well I'm an owner. I rescheduled for two different renters and David's has twice put my email (not BCC'd) to them in the new contract confirmation. I really didn't need one more reason to dislike David's...so sloppy!


I don’t think it’s sloppy at all. It’s by design.

David’s can provide whatever lip service they want, verbal or otherwise, that owners are “operating under the old agreement” but if the email clearly lays out that the new rental agreement with the renter, an email all owners will be copied on, that owners must make restitutions to the renter should things go south, David’s will have further evidence to provide the credit card company against any chargeback that they are off the hook. 

Their piecemeal agreement situation with all these new rentals/rebookings sow enough doubt and confusion around liability that any owner should assume they are accepting far greater risks by rerenting.

As has been their practice in the past, David’s are continuing to bet that everything goes fine and none of this will matter, but this time they wised up and are no longer gambling with house money.


----------



## New Mouse

Bing Showei said:


> I don’t think it’s sloppy at all. It’s by design.
> 
> David’s can provide whatever lip service they want, verbal or otherwise, that owners are “operating under the old agreement” but if the email clearly lays out that the new rental agreement with the renter, an email all owners will be copied on, that owners must make restitutions to the renter should things go south, David’s will have further evidence to provide the credit card company against any chargeback that they are off the hook.
> 
> Their piecemeal agreement situation with all these new rentals/rebookings sow enough doubt and confusion around liability that any owner should assume they are accepting far greater risks by rerenting.
> 
> As has been their practice in the past, David’s are continuing to bet that everything goes fine and none of this will matter, but this time they wised up and are no longer gambling with house money.



House money is the only reason they exist... they survive at the rates they do because they acted as a pseudo travel insurance company... and for that service, their rates were justified.   Without that service, they are now a matchmaking entity which most owners will not buy.

Had their own business insurance policy been robust they could have likely avoided this.


----------



## tubtruck

New Mouse said:


> House money is the only reason they exist... they survive at the rates they do because they acted as a pseudo travel insurance company... and for that service, their rates were justified.   Without that service, they are now a matchmaking entity which most owners will not buy.
> 
> Had their own business insurance policy been robust they could have likely avoided this.


How do you know they have not got some form of insurance policy ?


----------



## Bearval

foodiddiedoo said:


> I got an initial refund of my money with my CC company back on May 1st for a canceled trip on April 18th-25th through David's.  They asked for information up front and I pasted the portion of my original contract stating that I was entitled to a room and if I didn't received said room I was due a full refund.  I also gave them all the information including the reservation info and they said they thought that was more than enough to win my dispute.  It's now June 16th, the refunded money is still on my credit card (woe is me if one morning I come to check my bank account and see another 4500 dollar charge posted to my credit card) and no word back from my bank since then.  They told me that if I was worried about the process not going through to just not spend the refund until end of May.  I'm wondering if 45 days is enough at this point.  I also never responded in any way to David's email asking me to accept the terms for a credit and that was not mentioned on my claim either.


I would save all of the correspondence and cancel that credit card so they can no longer go back and put the charge back on.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Bearval said:


> I would save all of the correspondence and cancel that credit card so they can no longer go back and put the charge back on.


Canceling credit cards hurt your score, and I have had this particular one for over 12 years so it's also a long running line of credit.  I'm fine with waiting it out.


----------



## Bearval

foodiddiedoo said:


> Canceling credit cards hurt your score, and I have had this particular one for over 12 years so it's also a long running line of credit.  I'm fine with waiting it out.


The drop in your score is only temporary and it is based upon the percentage of available credit you are using.  So if you keep you balances low or pay them off monthly you would see a very low drop if any at all in your score.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

edit


----------



## SherylLC

tubtruck said:


> How do you know they have not got some form of insurance policy ?


He almost certainly is getting government assistance as well.


----------



## laserpastry

laserpastry said:


> Since my husband and my children have high-risk health issues, we have pretty much decided, short of a miracle, that we are not going in November as well.  I already reached out to David's to see if he was willing to contact the owner to ask if they were willing/able to do anything, while understanding that we were the ones cancelling, so we were not entitled to any accommodation.  We just thought that if the owner was able to re-rent the points to someone who could use them, then it would be great if they didn't go to waste.  David's refused to even ask the owner.  So, just a head's up.


So, just an update on our situation...  I contacted David's again and asked again if they would be willing to contact the owner and ask if anything can be done.  They agreed to try to rent out our reservation -- which is a long shot, I know -- and offered either a voucher or a refund minus $3/pt if they are successful.  I am satisfied.  All I wanted was a chance to try to resolve this.  If things don't work out, we're no worse off than we were before, and I appreciate David offering us options.  I know he's been inconsistent, to say the least, but he just created some goodwill with us.


----------



## AquaDame

laserpastry said:


> So, just an update on our situation...  I contacted David's again and asked again if they would be willing to contact the owner and ask if anything can be done.  They agreed to try to rent out our reservation -- which is a long shot, I know -- and offered either a voucher or a refund minus $3/pt if they are successful.  I am satisfied.  All I wanted was a chance to try to resolve this.  If things don't work out, we're no worse off than we were before, and I appreciate David offering us options.  I know he's been inconsistent, to say the least, but he just created some goodwill with us.



I'm wondering how many of these re-rentals are successful... if you can come back with an update if you hear anything I'd appreciate it!


----------



## Marionnette

AquaDame said:


> I'm wondering how many of these re-rentals are successful... if you can come back with an update if you hear anything I'd appreciate it!


Have you seen all of the confirmed reservations that are available on David’s website? I’ve never seen so many! Lot of renters want to cancel. I don’t think they’re all going to sell. But the PP has a Thanksgiving reservation. That should help. I hope it works out for them.


----------



## EllieBride

Marionnette said:


> Have you seen all of the confirmed reservations that are available on David’s website? I’ve never seen so many! Lot of renters want to cancel. I don’t think they’re all going to sell. But the PP has a Thanksgiving reservation. That should help. I hope it works out for them.



I’m curious too.  David’s contacted me a couple of weeks ago to say that my October renter doesn’t want to travel (not surprised) and asked if I would consider re-renting for the $1 per point inconvenience fee.  After several email exchanges to confirm that I’ll still get my 30% no matter what and that original contract terms still apply for me, I said yes. 

Now it‘s been a few weeks and I’m still not seeing my reservation listed on his website.  Maybe they forgot to post it?  It’s really not my problem to follow up, but I’m sure the renter might be bummed that it’s not even being advertised.  I may end up sending an email...  but really!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I think he’s past Pandora’s box and his house if cards will crush him soon it’s beyond a hot mess 
Too many people impacted when hotels were closed now a crush of people not wanting to go and him hurting his business by treating everyone so horribly


----------



## Bsandman

Marionnette said:


> Have you seen all of the confirmed reservations that are available on David’s website? I’ve never seen so many! Lot of renters want to cancel. I don’t think they’re all going to sell. But the PP has a Thanksgiving reservation. That should help. I hope it works out for them.



I was able to re-rent my reservation (thanks also to a great owner for being flexible). We took the $3 restocking fee deduction just to cut our losses. Our reservation was over Thanksgiving.


----------



## banzai75

Florida case counts keep rising.  What will David do if Disney does a 180 and has to postpone opening ?


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> I think he’s past Pandora’s box and his house if cards will crush him soon it’s beyond a hot mess
> Too many people impacted when hotels were closed now a crush of people not wanting to go and him hurting his business by treating everyone so horribly


----------



## New Mouse

No one is going to rent those reservations at those prices.   Thinking they will is absurd and a waste of time and labor on Davids part.

Its quite surprising to me how many places are not dropping their prices right now.


----------



## Marionnette

New Mouse said:


> No one is going to rent those reservations at those prices.   Thinking they will is absurd and a waste of time and labor on Davids part.
> 
> Its quite surprising to me how many places are not dropping their prices right now.


The only way that David’s can drop the price would be either if the owner agrees to cede part of what they originally agreed to accept (remember, David’s has already offered some owners an additional $1/pt to re-rent the reservation) OR David’s reduces their $4.50/pt profit from the rental.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

New Mouse said:


> No one is going to rent those reservations at those prices.   Thinking they will is absurd and a waste of time and labor on Davids part.
> 
> Its quite surprising to me how many places are not dropping their prices right now.



I don’t know, they might go quickly if the rumours are true and DVC is nearly the only thing open, and especially if Disney doesn’t allow people to book new reservations. I wonder if they get snatched up when (if) it becomes official that other resorts are not opening come July 11.

Might be an odd turn of events that allows rental companies to live another day despite how turned off so many of us are by them.


----------



## Tinkerbelle83

This thread has me a little concerned. I rented points through David's for an arrival this upcoming Tuesday. My reservation is for Jambo and when I saw that it wasn't going to be open. I reached out. I was told they haven't heard from the owner and to just arrive at the resort on my reservation. I am very much pro giving people in the hospitality some slack during these times, but now I'm genuinely concerned that I wont have a place to stay when I arrive.


----------



## starry_solo

Tinkerbelle83 said:


> This thread has me a little concerned. I rented points through David's for an arrival this upcoming Tuesday. My reservation is for Jambo and when I saw that it wasn't going to be open. I reached out. I was told they haven't heard from the owner and to just arrive at the resort on my reservation. I am very much pro giving people in the hospitality some slack during these times, but now I'm genuinely concerned that I wont have a place to stay when I arrive.



They should move you to Kidani


----------



## New Mouse

starry_solo said:


> They should move you to Kidani


 
Or you just show up to Jambo and get your money back and more calling David.


----------



## Sandisw

Marionnette said:


> Have you seen all of the confirmed reservations that are available on David’s website? I’ve never seen so many! Lot of renters want to cancel. I don’t think they’re all going to sell. But the PP has a Thanksgiving reservation. That should help. I hope it works out for them.



The tough part right now is who is going to rent unless they have tickets.


----------



## Tinkerbelle83

New Mouse said:


> Or you just show up to Jambo and get your money back and more calling David.



My biggest fear


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> The tough part right now is who is going to rent unless they have tickets.



Maybe people who were going to stay offsite but want to reserve parks sooner..? I think it'd only save them a few days though - there are only a few days between each scenario (resort+tickets, AP w/o resort, ticket only holders). Maybe AP holders that want to book something sooner rather than later?


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> Maybe people who were going to stay offsite but want to reserve parks sooner..? I think it'd only save them a few days though - there are only a few days between each scenario (resort+tickets, AP w/o resort, ticket only holders). Maybe AP holders that want to book something sooner rather than later?



It would have to be current ticket holders...but if one has no idea when they can buy and if by that time they may not get park days, it would be a risky move,

Now, once ticket sales open up, then they may.


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> It would have to be current ticket holders...but if one has no idea when they can buy and if by that time they may not get park days, it would be a risky move,
> 
> Now, once ticket sales open up, then they may.



Which isn't going to be until later this summer... add on to that he has the "dedicated" reservations kind of buried. I had to search for it and I knew to look... I had no idea it was an option before all this.


----------



## DisneyBB

Tinkerbelle83 said:


> This thread has me a little concerned. I rented points through David's for an arrival this upcoming Tuesday. My reservation is for Jambo and when I saw that it wasn't going to be open. I reached out. I was told they haven't heard from the owner and to just arrive at the resort on my reservation. I am very much pro giving people in the hospitality some slack during these times, but now I'm genuinely concerned that I wont have a place to stay when I arrive.


Does it say on your MDE if you are still in Jambo?  It should say where you are staying.  The owner also puts your email address in the booking, so you should get updates.  I am not sure what they send to the renter, but David should be able to advise you.


----------



## Disnerd62

Tinkerbelle83 said:


> My biggest fear


Just wondering if they moved you to Kidani? (we are in the same situation as you)


----------



## Sandisw

Disnerd62 said:


> Just wondering if they moved you to Kidani? (we are in the same situation as you)



This person was sent to Kidani!


----------



## banzai75

Update on credit card dispute. My stay was at aulani.

I have won my dispute.  Filed mid Apri. I am with chase reserve.

Did everything online and never spoke to an agent.


----------



## cm8

banzai75 said:


> Update on credit card dispute. My stay was at aulani.
> 
> I have won my dispute.  Filed mid Apri. I am with chase reserve.
> 
> Did everything online and never spoke to an agent.


Awesome


----------



## DGsAtBLT

banzai75 said:


> Update on credit card dispute. My stay was at aulani.
> 
> I have won my dispute.  Filed mid Apri. I am with chase reserve.
> 
> Did everything online and never spoke to an agent.



Love hearing this! Can’t wait until I can make a similar post.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m so happy you won !!!


----------



## banzai75

WDWEPCOT said:


> I’m so happy you won !!!



Got some questions on what I included

I included the original contract and highlighted the part about the actual refund amount if owner or agent didn’t have accommodations.

Also pointed out no force majeure clause

Also put new voucher terms and how they changed original contract and why they were unacceptable.

Can include this to anyone privately if you need assistance ! It was a long email.


----------



## Letty09

banzai75 said:


> Got some questions on what I included
> 
> I included the original contract and highlighted the part about the actual refund amount if owner or agent didn’t have accommodations.
> 
> Also pointed out no force majeure clause
> 
> Also put new voucher terms and how they changed original contract and why they were unacceptable.
> 
> Can include this to anyone privately if you need assistance ! It was a long email.



I’m glad you won your claim.
Did you mail your dispute? I did the online charge dispute on the Chase website and they denied my claim. I plan on resubmitting my dispute.


----------



## Kevin_W

For those with Chase using the online service - it might be worth your time to call.  I got an e-letter from them yesterday asking for me to submit documents related to the claim.  This was a little over a month after they had sent me the same letter and I had sent them the relevant documents.  Even though I had followed up by secure message to inquire on the status, when speaking with a person on the phone yesterday it turns out that Chase never filed those documents.  The person on the phone did that yesterday and they put a temporary credit on the card.  So my case is really just starting now, rather than a month ago.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I know I handled my disputes via phone with Chase  and Citi - I did not have to submit any paperwork - I won all disputes - I also had some on airfare in addition to the rental


----------



## banzai75

Letty09 said:


> I’m glad you won your claim.
> Did you mail your dispute? I did the online charge dispute on the Chase website and they denied my claim. I plan on resubmitting my dispute.



I submitted online. The initial submission has a very limited character limit. So that was just the basic stuff.

I then followed up with a secure message and put in additional details and additional documentation. I believe they allow PDFs in the secure messages so I included the contract and voucher and screenshots of closure.


----------



## lauraleh

banzai75 said:


> I submitted online. The initial submission has a very limited character limit. So that was just the basic stuff.
> 
> I then followed up with a secure message and put in additional details and additional documentation. I believe they allow PDFs in the secure messages so I included the contract and voucher and screenshots of closure.



Can you send me your email that you sent?  We have gone back and forth with Citi and it's frustrating!


----------



## Letty09

[


WDWEPCOT said:


> I know I handled my disputes via phone with Chase  and Citi - I did not have to submit any paperwork - I won all disputes - I also had some on airfare in addition to the rental



I have called twice and both representatives have said it’s a different department that settles the disputes that the only way is through fax or mail. They probably were handling disputes over the phone until they got extremely busy.  I did get my Chase points back from my airfare by calling but that was at the end of March. I have seen recently that people are having trouble getting their airfare points/money back.


----------



## Letty09

banzai75 said:


> I submitted online. The initial submission has a very limited character limit. So that was just the basic stuff.
> 
> I then followed up with a secure message and put in additional details and additional documentation. I believe they allow PDFs in the secure messages so I included the contract and voucher and screenshots of closure.



Oh ok thanks! When I called after they denied my claim they said I could only fax or mail. Did they send you David’s response on your Chase messages? They sent me what David’s sent them. A detailed breakdown of my contract as to why they oppose a refund.


----------



## banzai75

Letty09 said:


> Oh ok thanks! When I called after they denied my claim they said I could only fax or mail. Did they send you David’s response on your Chase messages? They sent me what David’s sent them. A detailed breakdown of my contract as to why they oppose a refund.



I never saw any response from David.  In fact I never heard from Chase after I initially submitted until it was approved/won which was a couple days ago.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Chase never said anything to me that they heard from David’s but again David stated they were too busy with FL to handle Hawaii


----------



## Callie

Thinking of you all. I cannot believe how much those reservations cost at David’s. Makes me even more thankful we own.


----------



## foodiddiedoo

I finally got a letter in the mail from my bank my dispute was resolved successfully! At least today I got one for the deposit I'm expecting a separate one for the entire rest tomorrow.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

foodiddiedoo said:


> I finally got a letter in the mail from my bank my dispute was resolved successfully! At least today I got one for the deposit I'm expecting a separate one for the entire rest tomorrow.



Congrats!! Thanks for sharing


----------



## foodiddiedoo

DGsAtBLT said:


> Congrats!! Thanks for sharing


Hopefully I'm the first of many people in this thread to actually win their dispute against David's.


----------



## Letty09

foodiddiedoo said:


> I finally got a letter in the mail from my bank my dispute was resolved successfully! At least today I got one for the deposit I'm expecting a separate one for the entire rest tomorrow.


Glad you won your dispute! Which bank was it with?


----------



## foodiddiedoo

Letty09 said:


> Glad you won your dispute! Which bank was it with?


PNC Bank Signature VISA.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Your not the first but I hope you are one of many !! I’m so happy you won !


----------



## spinchy

Another successful charge back to report.   This is from a Canadian credit card, Rogers MC.   It says the decision could be reversed if they get new info, but for now they've found in my favour.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> Your not the first but I hope you are one of many !! I’m so happy you won !


----------



## DGsAtBLT

spinchy said:


> Another successful charge back to report.   This is from a Canadian credit card, Rogers MC.   It says the decision could be reversed if they get new info, but for now they've found in my favour.



Awesome! Thank you for sharing, a Canadian win gives me hope.


----------



## Sparkyor

We won our chargeback through Chase.  Filed over the phone and didn't have to send anything additional.   Filed the last week of April.  Have another claim through a different Chase card that is pending.  That one I did have to send in paperwork since the first person I talked to denied it the same day.  I appealed with paperwork and they have given me a temporary credit.  I have confidence I will win that one too.


----------



## Diswiz99

banzai75 said:


> Got some questions on what I included
> 
> I included the original contract and highlighted the part about the actual refund amount if owner or agent didn’t have accommodations.
> 
> Also pointed out no force majeure clause
> 
> Also put new voucher terms and how they changed original contract and why they were unacceptable.
> 
> Can include this to anyone privately if you need assistance ! It was a long email.



Can you message me your response? Capitol one just asked me for more info. Thanks!


----------



## weich1001

Just wondering....Sorry if this has already been addressed somewhere.

Now that some of the DVC Resorts have started re-opening and a few (all be it appears to be very few) people appear to be brave or crazy and checking in, Are the Owners that made the Guests's Reservations (for the current opened time period) receiving their 30% due to them on day of check-in, from David's? Simply put, has David's honored his contract with the Owner's or walked away from paying remaining balance on a valid issued contract?

I am not asking if David's honored his contracts during the closure period...that's been debated over and over! Further I am not asking what happens if they end up getting shuttered back down again due to increasing Covid cases.


----------



## kirmouse

We were planning to go in August, but with Covid running out of control in Florida and the required quarantine upon our return to NY, it looks like it might be smart to reschedule. Should we even bother reaching out to David’s, or just eat the cost? The sad thing is  we had to cancel this same trip back in February due to a family emergency. I can’t believe we’re going to have to cancel again and lose all our money a second time. The loss of our trip, compounded by the financial loss, is such a major disappointment.


----------



## Marionnette

kirmouse said:


> We were planning to go in August, but with Covid running out of control in Florida and the required quarantine upon our return to NY, it looks like it might be smart to reschedule. Should we even bother reaching out to David’s, or just eat the cost? The sad thing is  we had to cancel this same trip back in February due to a family emergency. I can’t believe we’re going to have to cancel again and lose all our money a second time. The loss of our trip, compounded by the financial loss, is such a major disappointment.


It doesn’t hurt to reach out to see what they can do. If you don’t contact them, then you’re definitely out of the money. If you do contact them, you might still be out of the money but there’s a chance that they may work something out for you.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

You may be offered a voucher as others who did not want to go because of covid have been - never hurts to ask versus just taking a loss.


----------



## Yinn

weich1001 said:


> Just wondering....Sorry if this has already been addressed somewhere.
> 
> Now that some of the DVC Resorts have started re-opening and a few (all be it appears to be very few) people appear to be brave or crazy and checking in, Are the Owners that made the Guests's Reservations (for the current opened time period) receiving their 30% due to them on day of check-in, from David's? Simply put, has David's honored his contract with the Owner's or walked away from paying remaining balance on a valid issued contract?
> 
> I am not asking if David's honored his contracts during the closure period...that's been debated over and over! Further I am not asking what happens if they end up getting shuttered back down again due to increasing Covid cases.



The answer is no.  I had a renter cancel for later in the year and I’ve already been told that I wouldn’t receive the 30% unless I re-rented.

When I made it known that I didn’t want to rerent I was told that I had to hold the reservation through check in. If I didn’t want to do that, I’d have to pay the deposit back.  That’s despite the cancellation coming through, and the contract saying that if the renter cancelled, I’m still due.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Yikes ... I’m thinking of renting out a reservation through David’s but reading through this thread is making me have some second thoughts!


----------



## starry_solo

SleeplessInTO said:


> Yikes ... I’m thinking of renting out a reservation through David’s but reading through this thread is making me have some second thoughts!



all brokers have non refundable terms


----------



## SleeplessInTO

starry_solo said:


> all brokers have non refundable terms


The agreement that David’s sent me contains a force majeure clause that I’m getting mixed info on. 

It sounds like they’re asking owners to repay the cash received (70%) but only giving a voucher, if that, to the renters?


----------



## Yinn

SleeplessInTO said:


> Yikes ... I’m thinking of renting out a reservation through David’s but reading through this thread is making me have some second thoughts!



Consider this. Best case, you get paid 100% and you’ll make anywhere from $4-$8/point after dues. 

If they withhold the final 30% payment, you’re renting for $10.15 a point. Subtract your dues and the profit is anywhere from $0 to $4/point.

Under the new contract, force majeure you’d have to refund it all. What counts? We’re still in a global pandemic despite parks being open. Worst case, you lose points and have to refund. Netting you a loss equal to your annual dues.


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Yinn said:


> Consider this. Best case, you get paid 100% and you’ll make anywhere from $4-$8/point after dues.
> 
> If they withhold the final 30% payment, you’re renting for $10.15 a point. Subtract your dues and the profit is anywhere from $0 to $4/point.
> 
> Under the new contract, force majeure you’d have to refund it all. What counts? We’re still in a global pandemic despite parks being open. Worst case, you lose points and have to refund. Netting you a loss equal to your annual dues.


Very good points.


----------



## starry_solo

SleeplessInTO said:


> The agreement that David’s sent me contains a force majeure clause that I’m getting mixed info on.
> 
> It sounds like they’re asking owners to repay the cash received (70%) but only giving a voucher, if that, to the renters?



Oh. You're looking to rent out a reservation.  I thought you were looking to rent a confirmed reservation from David's .


----------



## Greg36

SleeplessInTO said:


> Very good points.



We just rented a confirmed reservation through David's (as the owner of the reservation/contract) for early 2021. It was the first time we used David's and I definitely was unsure after reading through this thread and a few others. The points expire in March and we knew we were not going to go so we figured it is worth the risk. They are being pretty upfront now that if the resort is closed or if a government mandate prevents travel you need to refund the 70% (or they will try and re-rent the points). It definitely feels a bit like a gamble, but from my perspective, we were going to lose the points anyway. We are in Canada so getting to Orlando is that much more complex anyway. It did not take long for the reservation to rent and the renters live close to Orlando so we felt like that will improve the chances of it working out.  We got paid the 70% right away but with the currency exchange I am just leaving it in paypal until check in (in case it needs to be refunded). Overall, I found David's okay to work with. It was frustrating asking for clarification but just continuing to get back cut and pasted messages from their policies. I also think under these new terms the owner is taking on much, if not all, of the risk. Having said that, they were pretty quick to respond to me, took care of the advertising, and did find someone to rent the reservation very quickly. They also handle all of the financial and contractual pieces and do seem to assume some responsibility for helping to address issues related to things like potential room damage. I can definitely see people being apprehensive using them moving forward, but for people who don't want to take on the responsibility of renting their points on their own, there are not really a lot of other options.


----------



## New Mouse

Greg36 said:


> We just rented a confirmed reservation through David's (as the owner of the reservation/contract) for early 2021. It was the first time we used David's and I definitely was unsure after reading through this thread and a few others. The points expire in March and we knew we were not going to go so we figured it is worth the risk. They are being pretty upfront now that if the resort is closed or if a government mandate prevents travel you need to refund the 70% (or they will try and re-rent the points). It definitely feels a bit like a gamble, but from my perspective, we were going to lose the points anyway. We are in Canada so getting to Orlando is that much more complex anyway. It did not take long for the reservation to rent and the renters live close to Orlando so we felt like that will improve the chances of it working out.  We got paid the 70% right away but with the currency exchange I am just leaving it in paypal until check in (in case it needs to be refunded). Overall, I found David's okay to work with. It was frustrating asking for clarification but just continuing to get back cut and pasted messages from their policies. I also think under these new terms the owner is taking on much, if not all, of the risk. Having said that, they were pretty quick to respond to me, took care of the advertising, and did find someone to rent the reservation very quickly. They also handle all of the financial and contractual pieces and do seem to assume some responsibility for helping to address issues related to things like potential room damage. I can definitely see people being apprehensive using them moving forward, but for people who don't want to take on the responsibility of renting their points on their own, there are not really a lot of other options.



Aside from finding a renter and maybe or maybe not giving you the money you are owed, its clear Davids will help with nothing.   If thats worth $4 to $5 a point to you, have at it.   I would assume that literally anything goes wrong in the future, hes going to try to pass the buck, regardless of the contract.


----------



## Madame

Greg36 said:


> We just rented a confirmed reservation through David's (as the owner of the reservation/contract) for early 2021. It was the first time we used David's and I definitely was unsure after reading through this thread and a few others. The points expire in March and we knew we were not going to go so we figured it is worth the risk. They are being pretty upfront now that if the resort is closed or if a government mandate prevents travel you need to refund the 70% (or they will try and re-rent the points). It definitely feels a bit like a gamble, but from my perspective, we were going to lose the points anyway. We are in Canada so getting to Orlando is that much more complex anyway. It did not take long for the reservation to rent and the renters live close to Orlando so we felt like that will improve the chances of it working out.  We got paid the 70% right away but with the currency exchange I am just leaving it in paypal until check in (in case it needs to be refunded). Overall, I found David's okay to work with. It was frustrating asking for clarification but just continuing to get back cut and pasted messages from their policies. I also think under these new terms the owner is taking on much, if not all, of the risk. Having said that, they were pretty quick to respond to me, took care of the advertising, and did find someone to rent the reservation very quickly. They also handle all of the financial and contractual pieces and do seem to assume some responsibility for helping to address issues related to things like potential room damage. I can definitely see people being apprehensive using them moving forward, but for people who don't want to take on the responsibility of renting their points on their own, there are not really a lot of other options.


I would deposit the points in RCI.  Did you read the new contract over carefully?  Especially the part where the owner is responsible financially for providing/paying for accommodations for the renter (which could mean $$$$ out of pocket as there is no specified limit) should the agreed upon accommodations become unavailable..?  

As a Canadian who can’t be bothered to get an ITIN in order to rent via other brokers I have rented out several times through David’s. I would never do so again, *especially* given the fact that we are still at the very beginning of this pandemic.

Europe has already opened to Canadians & if we are on the verge of losing points we will deposit into RCI for use in Canada or the EU.  No way would  I use a broker again - their usefulness was always only the mitigation of risk & that has been nullified.


----------



## Greg36

New Mouse said:


> Aside from finding a renter and maybe or maybe not giving you the money you are owed, its clear Davids will help with nothing.   If thats worth $4 to $5 a point to you, have at it.   I would assume that literally anything goes wrong in the future, hes going to try to pass the buck, regardless of the contract.



My goal was to get as much $$$ as possible from points that would expire anyways. At 70% payment, I am at least covering the cost of dues.


----------



## Brett Wyman

SleeplessInTO said:


> Yikes ... I’m thinking of renting out a reservation through David’s but reading through this thread is making me have some second thoughts!



If its a one time thing just rent through these forums.


----------



## Greg36

Madame said:


> I would deposit the points in RCI.  Did you read the new contract over carefully?  Especially the part where the owner is responsible financially for providing/paying for accommodations for the renter (which could mean $$$$ out of pocket as there is no specified limit) should the agreed upon accommodations become unavailable..?
> 
> As a Canadian who can’t be bothered to get an ITIN in order to rent via other brokers I have rented out several times through David’s. I would never do so again, *especially* given the fact that we are still at the very beginning of this pandemic.
> 
> Europe has already opened to Canadians & if we are on the verge of losing points we will deposit into RCI for use in Canada or the EU.  No way would  I use a broker again - their usefulness was always only the mitigation of risk & that has been nullified.



I hear what you are saying. We did not really have any interest in RCI ourselves. Did review the contract carefully. I am not sure which part you are referring to but my read was that you can be on the hook if you do something as an owner that would cause room to be unavaliable (e.g., not keeping up on dues). If the room was not avaliable due to the pandemic (for example) that would trigger the force majeure clause and would actually offer the owner some protection (IMHO).


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Brett Wyman said:


> If its a one time thing just rent through these forums.


I was thinking about it, I read through the rules and I’d have to purchase the platinum plan in order to post the reservation for rent (it’s not in the next 30 days). I will probably end up posting the points here though and just let the reservation go.
Was hoping the broker would make life easier in exchange for their cut of the fees but so far, not the case!


----------



## SleeplessInTO

Greg36 said:


> We just rented a confirmed reservation through David's (as the owner of the reservation/contract) for early 2021. It was the first time we used David's and I definitely was unsure after reading through this thread and a few others. The points expire in March and we knew we were not going to go so we figured it is worth the risk. They are being pretty upfront now that if the resort is closed or if a government mandate prevents travel you need to refund the 70% (or they will try and re-rent the points). It definitely feels a bit like a gamble, but from my perspective, we were going to lose the points anyway. We are in Canada so getting to Orlando is that much more complex anyway. It did not take long for the reservation to rent and the renters live close to Orlando so we felt like that will improve the chances of it working out.  We got paid the 70% right away but with the currency exchange I am just leaving it in paypal until check in (in case it needs to be refunded). Overall, I found David's okay to work with. It was frustrating asking for clarification but just continuing to get back cut and pasted messages from their policies. I also think under these new terms the owner is taking on much, if not all, of the risk. Having said that, they were pretty quick to respond to me, took care of the advertising, and did find someone to rent the reservation very quickly. They also handle all of the financial and contractual pieces and do seem to assume some responsibility for helping to address issues related to things like potential room damage. I can definitely see people being apprehensive using them moving forward, but for people who don't want to take on the responsibility of renting their points on their own, there are not really a lot of other options.


Hi fellow Canadian! I’m in the same boat. The responses I’ve been getting from David’s are timely but inconsistent. 
I may go with the PP’s suggestion and rent the points privately on these boards.


----------



## Bearval

Greg36 said:


> We just rented a confirmed reservation through David's (as the owner of the reservation/contract) for early 2021. It was the first time we used David's and I definitely was unsure after reading through this thread and a few others. The points expire in March and we knew we were not going to go so we figured it is worth the risk. They are being pretty upfront now that if the resort is closed or if a government mandate prevents travel you need to refund the 70% (or they will try and re-rent the points). It definitely feels a bit like a gamble, but from my perspective, we were going to lose the points anyway. We are in Canada so getting to Orlando is that much more complex anyway. It did not take long for the reservation to rent and the renters live close to Orlando so we felt like that will improve the chances of it working out.  We got paid the 70% right away but with the currency exchange I am just leaving it in paypal until check in (in case it needs to be refunded). Overall, I found David's okay to work with. It was frustrating asking for clarification but just continuing to get back cut and pasted messages from their policies. I also think under these new terms the owner is taking on much, if not all, of the risk. Having said that, they were pretty quick to respond to me, took care of the advertising, and did find someone to rent the reservation very quickly. They also handle all of the financial and contractual pieces and do seem to assume some responsibility for helping to address issues related to things like potential room damage. I can definitely see people being apprehensive using them moving forward, but for people who don't want to take on the responsibility of renting their points on their own, there are not really a lot of other options.


I would ask for further clarification on how any " room damage" would be handled.   From what I understand the contract states the renter is responsible but my question is how is that enforced?  Are they required to pay Davids then he reimburses you or is the owner responsible to get reimbursement from the renter if they refuse to pay?    I don't think this is very clear in the contract.


----------



## La2kw

SleeplessInTO said:


> Yikes ... I’m thinking of renting out a reservation through David’s but reading through this thread is making me have some second thoughts!



I've used them a number of times with good results.  Until Covid.  I'll never use them again, I don't agree with their handling of this situation and their new contract puts all liability on owners and renters and nothing on him.


----------



## Princess Michele

weich1001 said:


> Just wondering....Sorry if this has already been addressed somewhere.
> 
> Now that some of the DVC Resorts have started re-opening and a few (all be it appears to be very few) people appear to be brave or crazy and checking in, Are the Owners that made the Guests's Reservations (for the current opened time period) receiving their 30% due to them on day of check-in, from David's? Simply put, has David's honored his contract with the Owner's or walked away from paying remaining balance on a valid issued contract?
> 
> I am not asking if David's honored his contracts during the closure period...that's been debated over and over! Further I am not asking what happens if they end up getting shuttered back down again due to increasing Covid cases.


I rented out points for a reservation with the check in date being today.  I received my 30% payment this afternoon from David's.  I do not know if the guests checked in or not.  I did not receive any communication from David's that the guest wanted to cancel or change the reservation.  Since the guests were from the U.K. I am assuming that they either decided to loose the money they spent, disputed the charge, or they had travel insurance.


----------



## momincolorado

Another successful chargeback report. I just logged into my chase account and have a letter dtd late June indicating that dispute has been resolved and my account was credited for the full disputed amount. Looks like 61 days between the time dispute was filed until resolution. Card was Chase Sapphire Reserve.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Excellent !! So happy for you


----------



## izzy

.


----------



## Disnerd62

Princess Michele said:


> I rented out points for a reservation with the check in date being today.  I received my 30% payment this afternoon from David's.  I do not know if the guests checked in or not.  I did not receive any communication from David's that the guest wanted to cancel or change the reservation.  Since the guests were from the U.K. I am assuming that they either decided to loose the money they spent, disputed the charge, or they had travel insurance.


Glad to hear you got your 30%.  We were able to re-schedule our trip from May to October (same owner)  who has been amazing in helping with the rescheduling.  She actually sent me an email, we coordinated the change in dates, and then we both contacted Daves.    Can't say enough about how great this owner has been, and happy to hear that there is precedence that she will get her 30% when we check in.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.


----------



## Sandisw

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.



I saw that too...it’s crazy.


----------



## New Mouse

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.



When you compare $19 a point, its not competitive with the direct rates people can get right now.


----------



## banzai75

Can someone explain to me the dedicated reservations ?

I’m assuming owner and renter were matched previously. Renter perhaps has decided not to go and take a voucher. Does owner hold onto reservation in expectation of receiving the 30 percent ?

is David’s just trying to get a little extra something out of it?


----------



## DGsAtBLT

New Mouse said:


> When you compare $19 a point, its not competitive with the direct rates people can get right now.



Yeah, I know we’ve had lots of discussion about that in here, but at the regular prices right now there’s not near enough of a discount from the actual rates you can get through Disney to take on the risk and the hassle of a point rental, IMO.

With heavy AP discounts coming back already, I won’t be surprised if regular discounts are on the horizon.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

banzai75 said:


> Can someone explain to me the dedicated reservations ?
> 
> I’m assuming owner and renter were matched previously. Renter perhaps has decided not to go and take a voucher. Does owner hold onto reservation in expectation of receiving the 30 percent ?
> 
> is David’s just trying to get a little extra something out of it?



I think some may be owners trying to rent out their own existing reservations?

There has also been at least one person amongst these discussions somewhere (can’t remember where) who was told when they didn’t feel comfortable going when the resorts were open David’s would attempt to re-rent their reservation and give them back a portion as a refund if successful.


----------



## CastAStone

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.


I expect we’ll see rental prices collapse further in the next few months. I think they’ll recover just fine once things pick back up but the short term will just keep getting uglier. If your options are let 200 points expire or take $2/point, who would turn down $400 for an hour of work?


----------



## Matty B13

CastAStone said:


> If your options are let 200 points expire or take $2/point, who would turn down $400 for an hour of work?


What if the renter damages the room and leaves you on the hook with the resort?  It really ins't worth is at $2/point, maybe $10/point.

We are going to have to loss 32 points this year, since it just isn't worth it to rent them out.


----------



## CastAStone

Matty B13 said:


> What if the renter damages the room and leaves you on the hook with the resort?  It really ins't worth is at $2/point, maybe $10/point.
> 
> We are going to have to loss 32 points this year, since it just isn't worth it to rent them out.


It won’t be worth it to everyone, sure, but I do imagine there will be continued downward pressure.


----------



## Griz1

Just got my CC dispute resolved in my favor!

Reservation was for 3 days starting on 3/19, The day before resorts closed. Waited for David’s to make things right but didn’t like some of the provisions in his voucher offer.
Filed with Chase Sapphire Reserve about May 10. Did not have to supply any paperwork, just discussed with agent on the phone.

Love my Chase Sapphire card.


----------



## starry_solo

banzai75 said:


> Can someone explain to me the dedicated reservations ?
> 
> I’m assuming owner and renter were matched previously. Renter perhaps has decided not to go and take a voucher. Does owner hold onto reservation in expectation of receiving the 30 percent ?
> 
> is David’s just trying to get a little extra something out of it?



OK, these are reservations that have already been made.  Some by owners who were already matched up with renters and the renters have chosen not to go (typically COVID related reasons, quarantine, travel ban, etc.).  The renters contact David's to see if David's can re-rent the reservation and/or get some of their (renters) money back.  Depending on the travel insurance policy the renter has, they have to make efforts to mitigate their losses.  David's reaches out to contact the owners to see if they will make the change, promising an extra $2-3 per point if David's successfully re-rents the reservation [from what I've read, under the terms of the original agreement]).  So, in the beginning, David's was trying to get $19/point, give $3/point to the owner, and return $16/point to the renter (thereby, not making anything other than the original commission).  Well, that's not working well because there are a lot more reservations than there are renters.  So the prices have to go down, especially for travel within the next 30 days or so.

Disney is not accepting new reservations for 2020 so if anyone wants to go, it has to be through a DVC reservation


----------



## banzai75

Griz1 said:


> Just got my CC dispute resolved in my favor!
> 
> Reservation was for 3 days starting on 3/19, The day before resorts closed. Waited for David’s to make things right but didn’t like some of the provisions in his voucher offer.
> Filed with Chase Sapphire Reserve about May 10. Did not have to supply any paperwork, just discussed with agent on the phone.
> 
> Love my Chase Sapphire card.



congrats. Seems like most of the chase sapphire have won their disputes!


----------



## CastAStone

starry_solo said:


> OK, these are reservations that have already been made.  Some by owners who were already matched up with renters and the renters have chosen not to go (typically COVID related reasons, quarantine, travel ban, etc.).  The renters contact David's to see if David's can re-rent the reservation and/or get some of their (renters) money back.  Depending on the travel insurance policy the renter has, they have to make efforts to mitigate their losses.  David's reaches out to contact the owners to see if they will make the change, promising an extra $2-3 per point if David's successfully re-rents the reservation [from what I've read, under the terms of the original agreement]).  So, in the beginning, David's was trying to get $19/point, give $3/point to the owner, and return $16/point to the renter (thereby, not making anything other than the original commission).  Well, that's not working well because there are a lot more reservations than there are renters.  So the prices have to go down, especially for travel within the next 30 days or so.
> 
> Disney is not accepting new reservations for 2020 so if anyone wants to go, it has to be through a DVC reservation


In addition to that, if you want to rent your points right now through a broker, the only way to offer them at a discounted rate is with a dedicated reservation.


----------



## Dentam

starry_solo said:


> Disney is not accepting new reservations for 2020 so if anyone wants to go, it has to be through a DVC reservation



Disney started accepting new reservations for 2020 last Thursday.  They also have a 40% discount offer for AP's and another offer for FL residents I believe.


----------



## Dentam

I'm the one who posted about David's offering me most of my money back if the owner was willing to change the name on the reservation, which they were.  My rental is on the dedicated rentals pages for Sept... I counted over 200 last I checked just for that month though.  

My dad would like to go - he's not as concerned about the virus as I am.  The numbers today put FL at 4th in the world for number of cases in one day - 15k.  Could be partially due to more testing now than what was available back in the spring but I won't feel comfortable going unless numbers come down.

So... I will likely lose the money I paid either way, but if my dad wants to use the reservation than at least it won't be a total loss.  I will join him if the numbers come down before Labor Day week.


----------



## starry_solo

Dentam said:


> Disney started accepting new reservations for 2020 last Thursday.  They also have a 40% discount offer for AP's and another offer for FL residents I believe.



Ok, I wasn't sure if they had done that yet.  I only looked for theme park tickets and then the day I was going to buy them, my friend canceled her trip to WDW.


----------



## Dentam

starry_solo said:


> Ok, I wasn't sure if they had done that yet.  I only looked for theme park tickets and then the day I was going to buy them, my friend canceled her trip to WDW.



Yeah, they announced it the afternoon before they became available, so not much notice!  Park tickets are available now also.  I got them for my dad and I along with park reservations and we will watch the situation and make a decision as we get closer to Sept.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.





Sandisw said:


> I saw that too...it’s crazy.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth




----------



## Kevin_W

Griz1 said:


> Just got my CC dispute resolved in my favor!
> 
> Reservation was for 3 days starting on 3/19, The day before resorts closed. Waited for David’s to make things right but didn’t like some of the provisions in his voucher offer.
> Filed with Chase Sapphire Reserve about May 10. Did not have to supply any paperwork, just discussed with agent on the phone.
> 
> Love my Chase Sapphire card.



Good to hear!  It's interested the differing experiences people have with the same credit card/bank (I realize Chase is a huge place, though). They asked em to file the same paperwork twice.


----------



## coffeemama

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.



Wow. And on the opposite end of the spectrum, David's (biggest?) competitor has tons of dedicated reservations for rent on their page for $24,  $25, $26 per point and up. I saw one today that worked out to be $30 per point! Are people really going to pay that?! Strange times....


----------



## Brian Noble

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.


RCI has had multiple weeks just sitting in the spacebank in 1BR villas at both OKW and SSR to the end of August. Usually they disappear in a matter of hours.


----------



## graychef

I just booked five nights in August 2020 at Old Key West 1-BR that ended up being about $360/night after tax. That same reservation would’ve been the equivalent of 156 points @ $11.50/point. It will be difficult to dump some of the dedicated reservations when they are competing with AP discounts.


----------



## Amymouse13

Won our dispute with Citibank (final decision) this was after initial refund, then David responded, Citi reversed, we argued again, and finally we won.  So far bank of America corporate has not sided with us, they tried to claim visa won't let them (lies)- it's not my business card so my husband will need to sort that out if he wants that money back.


----------



## meryll83

Amymouse13 said:


> Won our dispute with Citibank (final decision) this was after initial refund, then David responded, Citi reversed, we argued again, and finally we won.  So far bank of America corporate has not sided with us, they tried to claim visa won't let them (lies)- it's not my business card so my husband will need to sort that out if he wants that money back.


Can I ask what your experience with the second argument was?
We had just a week left to go to keep the temporary chargeback funds awarded on our claim, with Halifax in the UK, but David’s has challenged because apparently a voucher is a suitable alternative to a cash refund by Canadian law.
Halifax have advised me that David’s have not provided appropriate evidence of this however, so have automatically continued  the challenge back with my claim, but David’s now get another 45 days to respond...


----------



## Amymouse13

meryll83 said:


> Can I ask what your experience with the second argument was?
> We had just a week left to go with our claim, with Halifax in the UK, but David’s then challenged because apparently a voucher is a suitable alternative to a cash refund by Canadian law.
> Halifax have advised me that David’s have not provided appropriate evidence of this however, so have automatically continued with my claim, but David’s now get another 45 days to respond...



So Citibank initially I did online where I just click a few buttons... Goods not received and that's it.  David's sent a stock pile of garbage so then they reverse (supposedly many times the merchant doesn't argue so there is no need for further action).  I then wrote letter and provided copy of voucher and contract.  We were during closed time in April.  David's had until July 10 to argue... I'm not sure if they did.  Decided as of July 12.


----------



## meryll83

Amymouse13 said:


> So Citibank initially I did online where I just click a few buttons... Goods not received and that's it.  David's sent a stock pile of garbage so then they reverse (supposedly many times the merchant doesn't argue so there is no need for further action).  I then wrote letter and provided copy of voucher and contract.  We were during closed time in April.  David's had until July 10 to argue... I'm not sure if they did.  Decided as of July 12.


Thanks for the info.
So you provided evidence that the voucher wasn’t providing the same terms as the original contract? Was that your main challenge back?


----------



## zskid00

I would also like to know what angle you took on the second response.  I have the same issue with my Citi card where they automatically sided with me then sided with David's when they provided a rebuttal.  I have since responded to that change in the case, but I haven't heard back about a final decision yet.  There may still be time for me to add documentation to my case.


----------



## cm8

zskid00 said:


> I would also like to know what angle you took on the second response.  I have the same issue with my Citi card where they automatically sided with me then sided with David's when they provided a rebuttal.  I have since responded to that change in the case, but I haven't heard back about a final decision yet.  There may still be time for me to add documentation to my case.


I don’t have a horse in this race but I have been following this thread. I do believe most countered with the fact that the original agreement stipulated you were owed a cash refund back not a voucher. Also, the voucher has zero monetary benefits and can be canceled at anytime! Also, if another closure happens, you will also not be compensated further...


----------



## Yinn

DGsAtBLT said:


> Did you guys see there are a bunch of dedicated reservations for $9 a point??  I just saw it shared on their Facebook page. Wow. I have to assume that means the number of people who are willing to both travel right now and rent points is really low.



I wonder how many of those are “re-rent” reservations.

David’s gets a cancellation, claims parks and resorts are open and doesn’t refund. Tells owner to re-rent for an extra $2.

If they don’t have a match, they list the original reservation for $9 to hopefully make an additional $7/pt. If it doesn’t rent, didn’t cost them anything and they pay the owner. If it rents, they just made an extra $7/pt.  Heck, if that’s the case it’s even more profitable considering they normally only make $4-5/pt.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Yinn said:


> I wonder how many of those are “re-rent” reservations.
> 
> David’s gets a cancellation, claims parks and resorts are open and doesn’t refund. Tells owner to re-rent for an extra $2.
> 
> If they don’t have a match, they list the original reservation for $9 to hopefully make an additional $7/pt. If it doesn’t rent, didn’t cost them anything and they pay the owner. If it rents, they just made an extra $7/pt.  Heck, if that’s the case it’s even more profitable considering they normally only make $4-5/pt.


----------



## Amymouse13

zskid00 said:


> I would also like to know what angle you took on the second response.  I have the same issue with my Citi card where they automatically sided with me then sided with David's when they provided a rebuttal.  I have since responded to that change in the case, but I haven't heard back about a final decision yet.  There may still be time for me to add documentation to my case.



I mean I laid out the facts... They had until July 10 to respond.  I think was like 45-60 days from my documentation.


----------



## RachStu

David’s reached out to us yesterday to see if we would be willing to change the name on a rental that we have made for them in Sept for an additional $2 per point. The email made clear that we would still receive the outstanding 30% of the payment due to us on check in day regardless of whether we made the change or not. I’ve agreed to make the change provided it’s made as an addendum to the original contract and not subject to the new terms and conditions. I haven’t received a reply yet.


----------



## banzai75

Is this how he is paying for the voucher system? Using these reservations that were  going to expire anyways for all his credits ?

his only payment is 2$ a point and now he has clreared a credit.


----------



## CastAStone

I mean not for nothing but David has made hundreds if not $1000+ per rental for thousands of rentals a year for years. I'm betting he has some money. And if giving people $2/point keeps those people as customers moving forward, that's just good for business.


----------



## RachStu

banzai75 said:


> Is this how he is paying for the voucher system? Using these reservations that were  going to expire anyways for all his credits ?
> 
> his only payment is 2$ a point and now he has clreared a credit.



I believe they are attempting to resell the reservations. However, from what I can see on their webpage, they appear to be selling some reservations for as little as $9 a point. He is therefore not recouping much. September reservations are currently advertised at $18 a point but I imagine this will come down, assuming Disney is still open then and Florida is not back in lockdown. When someone comes to use their voucher in the future that is going to cost David at least $14 a point I would have thought unless the rental market takes a complete nose dive.


----------



## Anek0618

I have joined this party late as I am an owner with 2 reservations coming up at Aulani. It is looking like the resort will definitely be closed. I have read David’s new contracts and am not a fan. Hoping to find out from other owners that have been through this what my options are. I don’t need to know what you decided to do, just weighing options. David has not reached out to me as of yet, but I expect something soon.


----------



## RachStu

Anek0618 said:


> I have joined this party late as I am an owner with 2 reservations coming up at Aulani. It is looking like the resort will definitely be closed. I have read David’s new contracts and am not a fan. Hoping to find out from other owners that have been through this what my options are. I don’t need to know what you decided to do, just weighing options. David has not reached out to me as of yet, but I expect something soon.



I also have an Aulani reservation booked for someone in August. I haven’t heard anything from David’s about that reservation yet. I did contact them about it about six weeks ago to ask them to contact the renter to see if they wanted to change dates. They said they hadn’t heard anything from the renter to indicate that and didn’t seem to be willing to reach out to the renter to offer a change as an option.


----------



## banzai75

Aulani will cancel automatically about 7 days prior.

you don’t need to do anything to cancel. Renter is probably waiting for cancelllation then will try to chargeback.


----------



## RachStu

Possibly. They are from South Korea though so I’m surprised they haven’t contacted Davids. I don’t know if they even know about the seven day cancellation.


----------



## Rat-a-too-ee

RachStu said:


> I also have an Aulani reservation booked for someone in August. I haven’t heard anything from David’s about that reservation yet. I did contact them about it about six weeks ago to ask them to contact the renter to see if they wanted to change dates. They said they hadn’t heard anything from the renter to indicate that and didn’t seem to be willing to reach out to the renter to offer a change as an option.



I'm in the same situation. 

These are my options from an email I received:

"We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% of funds sent to you for the reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the Family paid for their reservation including our commission.
If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit."


I am really confused how things will work since these were banked March 2019 use year points.  What if they cannot be re-rented and expire?


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I had a resv at Aulani - David would not address it so I did a chargeback and won 
As an Owner with resv at WDW during closure I offered for one of my two resv to change the revs dates - David said ok - I was working with renter directly then everyone got quiet - well  come to find out later renter was offered voucher - keep in mind this process started long before he came up with the voucher program 
Go forward several months before I hear from him again and all out if blue he sends me a new rental request for my 2nd rental person - not the first - but quoted to me how many points I owe him to rent - for the rest of this story see above post 
I have made it crystal clear I’m NOT signing any new agreements period the end as their  new terms are horrible to Owners - they have stated I won’t have to but
Words are wind these people lie


----------



## Sandisw

Rat-a-too-ee said:


> I'm in the same situation.
> 
> These are my options from an email I received:
> 
> "We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% of funds sent to you for the reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for the family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the Family paid for their reservation including our commission.
> If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit."
> 
> 
> I am really confused how things will work since these were banked March 2019 use year points.  What if they cannot be re-rented and expire?



If you decide to allow him to rent the points again, then you only need to worry about them for trips before they expire next February.

It would be up to him to find a renter for your points.  If I was in this position, I would not be refunding money unless I wanted to have the points back to use myself.

The key is that if he gets a new renter for later, you will not be paid the 30% you are owed until the new check in date.  Be sure you are okay with that as well.


----------



## Amymouse13

Who seriously thinks Disney won't get closed again soon...


----------



## Anek0618

My only concern with re-renting is the new contracts he has put in place. Did anyone have any luck getting him to agree that it would still fall under the old contract? Do I trust him even if he agrees? Refunding is not really an option for us as we are Canadian and will get killed with the current exchange rate. Uggg. What a situation. This is the first and last time I ever rent out our points.


----------



## homeboycartel

Hey all,  I have a reservation I rented through David’s for an 8/7 check-in date. They reached out to me today to say the renters are cancelling and to see if I would re-rent for the $2/ pt. What happens if no one bites for the $9 special? Could I change the names 48-72 hours before check in and use it? The emails confirmed I’ll receive my 30% check-in amount. Just curious what becomes of the points if no one shows up.


----------



## cm8

homeboycartel said:


> Hey all,  I have a reservation I rented through David’s for an 8/7 check-in date. They reached out to me today to say the renters are cancelling and to see if I would re-rent for the $2/ pt. What happens if no one bites for the $9 special? Could I change the names 48-72 hours before check in and use it? The emails confirmed I’ll receive my 30% check-in amount. Just curious what becomes of the points if no one shows up.


If no one shows up, you will not be paid the 30% left per your original contract AND your points will be lost


----------



## Greg36

Anek0618 said:


> My only concern with re-renting is the new contracts he has put in place. Did anyone have any luck getting him to agree that it would still fall under the old contract? Do I trust him even if he agrees? Refunding is not really an option for us as we are Canadian and will get killed with the current exchange rate. Uggg. What a situation. This is the first and last time I ever rent out our points.



This was one of our concerns too (exchange rate conversion costs) so we opted to just leave the money in paypal until check in...


----------



## Sandisw

cm8 said:


> If no one shows up, you will not be paid the 30% left per your original contract AND your points will be lost



I think with resorts open, owners are supposed to get the 30% owed as this is a renters cancellation.

Points will be lost but there is no reason an owner should not get paid.

Now, I did read where this happened and the owner only lost points for first day...DVc returned the rest...might have been a glitch, but it’s possible.


----------



## Sandisw

homeboycartel said:


> Hey all,  I have a reservation I rented through David’s for an 8/7 check-in date. They reached out to me today to say the renters are cancelling and to see if I would re-rent for the $2/ pt. What happens if no one bites for the $9 special? Could I change the names 48-72 hours before check in and use it? The emails confirmed I’ll receive my 30% check-in amount. Just curious what becomes of the points if no one shows up.



I think if you change the names and use it yourself, you owe the money back.

Now, if it were me, and I could, go and David’s was offering for $9, I might say I’d rent it for that, take off the money I was owed and send the difference and keep the points,  

Of course, David’s might now allow that...lol


----------



## RachStu

Sandisw said:


> I think if you change the names and use it yourself, you owe the money back.
> 
> Now, if it were me, and I could, go and David’s was offering for $9, I might say I’d rent it for that, take off the money I was owed and send the difference and keep the points,
> 
> Of course, David’s might now allow that...lol



What a great idea. If you did it in a friend’s name he’d be none the wiser and the points would only cost $7 after the $2 extra payment for the name change is taken into account


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I like that idea !


----------



## cm8

WDWEPCOT said:


> I like that idea !


Careful, he might hate competition 
#ifyoucantbeatthem #jointhem


----------



## RachStu

Just had my second request from David’s to make a name change. As this rate all four of the bookings I have with him will be re-rented!


----------



## Friendlyadvice2

RachStu said:


> Just had my second request from David’s to make a name change. As this rate all four of the bookings I have with him will be re-rented!


Well, they'll be advertised on the site to be re-rented, but most will simply go unused.  With all of the confirmed reservations for rent, there are a lot of points that are just simply expiring.


----------



## RachStu

I do wonder if many people will try to back out of private rentals (if they can get a full refund from the owner) and look to book one of these bargain reservations instead. That would be pretty low, but I bet it will happen.


----------



## Brian Noble

iflyjetzzz said:


> I can tell you that the Doubletree Disney Springs (a good neighbor hotel) has noticably lower prices later this year than they did same time last year.


It's not just in the WDW area. We are helping our daughter move to Madison, WI for her graduate program. Hotel rates are dropping like a rock for those August dates while I watch, with plenty of availability.



Amymouse13 said:


> Who seriously thinks Disney won't get closed again soon...


I don't think Florida state government will close them unless the DeSantis administration has a drastic change of heart. Orange County? Maybe, maybe not. 

I doubt Disney does it on their own unless they end up in a huge publicity disaster as a repeat super-spreader location. And, in the current media environment, it would be hard to garner that much negative attention given the other dumpster fires nearly everywhere you look.



RachStu said:


> Just had my second request from David’s to make a name change. As this rate all four of the bookings I have with him will be re-rented!


A _lot_ of people are canceling due to case growth, particularly in Florida. That they paid and might not get anything back isn't as important as the growing risk of infection for an increasing number of people. For example, Disney apparently shifted some of their excess ticket-holder/resort guest Park Pass availability into the Annual Passholder bucket in the past day or so. Possibly that is happening because resort bookings/day ticket cancellations are trending lower than expected.


----------



## Dixie1337

homeboycartel said:


> Hey all,  I have a reservation I rented through David’s for an 8/7 check-in date. They reached out to me today to say the renters are cancelling and to see if I would re-rent for the $2/ pt. What happens if no one bites for the $9 special? Could I change the names 48-72 hours before check in and use it? The emails confirmed I’ll receive my 30% check-in amount. Just curious what becomes of the points if no one shows up.



So I can tell you that I reached out to David's and asked if my reservations in December could be re-rented because we would rather not travel.  They agreed (if the owner agrees) at a cost of $3 pp.  $2 of which I see will go to the owner.  I wouldn't bank on these "cancelled" reservations being sold off for $9 a point. 

If they can't be re-rented, and if the border is open and we can get travel insurance depending on the situation in the USA we may go as it's still our reservation that we paid for and December is a long way from now and it's impossible to say how things will look.  There's too many unknowns to make a final decision now... it's just ideally we would cancel and not have to think about it. 

If something happens to the reservation outside of the points being re-rented I'm asking for 100% of my money back and I think they will ask the same from you.  So.... I really don't think you should change anything.

I know your reservation is much sooner so there are fewer unknowns but I think my point stands regardless.


----------



## lawboy2001

Anek0618 said:


> My only concern with re-renting is the new contracts he has put in place. Did anyone have any luck getting him to agree that it would still fall under the old contract? Do I trust him even if he agrees? Refunding is not really an option for us as we are Canadian and will get killed with the current exchange rate. Uggg. What a situation. This is the first and last time I ever rent out our points.



To clarify, if you 're-rent' by changing the name on the existing reservation, your owner's contract is not changed.  You simply get 2$ per point bonus.  The new renter will have the 'new' renters contract, with "force majeur' terms and the other changes.   

I just did this yesterday -- there was no new contract for me, just the 2$ per point bonus payment.


----------



## Anek0618

Unfortunately I can’t just change a name as the resort will be closed over the time of the reservation. Will it still be the same scenario if he completely re-rents my points for another time? If I can maintain my old contract I may be ok with it.


----------



## Sandisw

lawboy2001 said:


> To clarify, if you 're-rent' by changing the name on the existing reservation, your owner's contract is not changed.  You simply get 2$ per point bonus.  The new renter will have the 'new' renters contract, with "force majeur' terms and the other changes.
> 
> I just did this yesterday -- there was no new contract for me, just the 2$ per point bonus payment.



Owner contract does not change, but was told by the broker that if another situation happens, the owner is required to refund the money per the new contract with renter..

So, it seems there has been different messages to different owners, just an FyI


----------



## WDWEPCOT

As before consistent being inconsistent can’t trust a darn thing these people do !! Ugh


----------



## homeboycartel

update:  I straight up asked if they cannot re-rent the points if I can have them back at 72 hours before check-in To try and save them and release them from paying me the 30% guaranteed. we shall see.


----------



## Dixie1337

homeboycartel said:


> update:  I straight up asked if they cannot re-rent the points if I can have them back at 72 hours before check-in To try and save them and release them from paying me the 30% guaranteed. we shall see.



That would be so unfair to the renter.  If you want the points give back the money, or enjoy the money and say goodbye to the points.


----------



## Bearval

homeboycartel said:


> update:  I straight up asked if they cannot re-rent the points if I can have them back at 72 hours before check-in To try and save them and release them from paying me the 30% guaranteed. we shall see.


My question is has any owner received the 30% if the guest has not checked in during COVID if they didn't agree to re-rent the points?


----------



## lawboy2001

Anek0618 said:


> Unfortunately I can’t just change a name as the resort will be closed over the time of the reservation. Will it still be the same scenario if he completely re-rents my points for another time? If I can maintain my old contract I may be ok with it.



I don't know the answer to that, but I seem to recall a poster saying that during back and forth with David's, they did end up agreeing that the old owner contract terms would apply in this situation.


----------



## lawboy2001

Sandisw said:


> Owner contract does not change, but was told by the broker that if another situation happens, the owner is required to refund the money per the new contract with renter..
> 
> So, it seems there has been different messages to different owners, just an FyI



Good thing my reservation is only a few days away so I'm safe!


----------



## homeboycartel

Dixie1337 said:


> That would be so unfair to the renter.  If you want the points give back the money, or enjoy the money and say goodbye to the points.


The renter already canceled and was given a voucher. The listing is up for re-renting. I am not optimistic someone is going to want to rent it. It is unlikely anyone will use these points.


----------



## momincolorado

homeboycartel said:


> The renter already canceled and was given a voucher. The listing is up for re-renting. I am not optimistic someone is going to want to rent it. It is unlikely anyone will use these points.


My understanding is that the renters whose resorts are open and who simply do not want to go only get a voucher if the reservation re-rents, is this not correct?


----------



## homeboycartel

they were cryptic about what is being given to the renters who have voluntarily cancelled. I’m keeping the reservation posted for re-rent but there’s way more inventory on that market then demand. So if it doesn’t re-rent, no voucher, and I am only looking to modify and rescind it if done on the last day to do so. Dvc member services said NOW, at 3-days/72-hours before check-in, you can cancel and not have holding. My thing is if it’s not re-rented then, the points shouldn’t be wasted. I fulfilled my side of the contract by making the reservation.


----------



## Sandisw

homeboycartel said:


> they were cryptic about what is being given to the renters who have voluntarily cancelled. I’m keeping the reservation posted for re-rent but there’s way more inventory on that market then demand. So if it doesn’t re-rent, no voucher, and I am only looking to modify and rescind it if done on the last day to do so. Dvc member services said NOW, at 3-days/72-hours before check-in, you can cancel and not have holding. My thing is if it’s not re-rented then, the points shouldn’t be wasted. I fulfilled my side of the contract by making the reservation.



I happen to agree with you.  The contracts always said if the renter cancels, it is non refundable.

I know this may be something never considered, but I think an owner who as agreed to rent it to someone else has made concessions.

I have shared already if it were me, I’d offer the 30% I am owed to the renter and be allowed to keep points  it hasn’t been rented within a day or two of check in.


----------



## homeboycartel

Exactly. Usually it’s a moot point as DVC is, rightfully, not giving us owners the option to return the points to inventory this late and forego holding. That is why I think brokers need to be creative here to keep business from both sides.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’ve tried the keep 30% with them and they ignored me and sent the same rental request hence we are in a break ! I have several issues with them and they are not being resolved so we will just wait 
As far as I’m concerned I upheld my end if contract - David is the end that is changing and breaking contracts without checking with other parties of the contract - so issue will be on his end not mine


----------



## Dixie1337

homeboycartel said:


> The renter already canceled and was given a voucher. The listing is up for re-renting. I am not optimistic someone is going to want to rent it. It is unlikely anyone will use these points.



This isn't something david's is doing.  IF the reservation re-rents you can choose either a voucher or a refund less a $3 per point re-stocking fee.  If the reservation doesn't re-rent, it's still your reservation and you you get nothing except, you know, the reservation.


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> I happen to agree with you.  The contracts always said if the renter cancels, it is non refundable.



As far as the reservation is concerned, no one's cancelled anything, they just said they don't want to go and are asking to re-rent the points.  For all the owner knows if the renter isn't able to re-rent the points they might end up going.


----------



## starry_solo

homeboycartel said:


> they were cryptic about what is being given to the renters who have voluntarily cancelled. I’m keeping the reservation posted for re-rent but there’s way more inventory on that market then demand. So if it doesn’t re-rent, no voucher, and I am only looking to modify and rescind it if done on the last day to do so. Dvc member services said NOW, at 3-days/72-hours before check-in, you can cancel and not have holding. My thing is if it’s not re-rented then, the points shouldn’t be wasted. I fulfilled my side of the contract by making the reservation.



If you cancel the reservation before the date, you'll need to refund David's because now you've breached the original contract


----------



## lawboy2001

homeboycartel said:


> they were cryptic about what is being given to the renters who have voluntarily cancelled. I’m keeping the reservation posted for re-rent but there’s way more inventory on that market then demand. So if it doesn’t re-rent, no voucher, and I am only looking to modify and rescind it if done on the last day to do so. Dvc member services said NOW, at 3-days/72-hours before check-in, you can cancel and not have holding. My thing is if it’s not re-rented then, the points shouldn’t be wasted. I fulfilled my side of the contract by making the reservation.


Yes if no one has grabbed your reservation with 72 hours to go, no one will.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Putting the resv up fir renting us something David’s is doing - the renter doesn’t want to go but doesn’t want to cancel and be out the money - the Owner is out the points - you rented them and David should pay you for them - changing names you make a few $ for doing that service -IF someone would bite on it - not likely - the million $ question becomes will David pay when no one shows up ? Then Owner is not fulfilled and points are wasted and here we are still


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> As far as the reservation is concerned, no one's cancelled anything, they just said they don't want to go and are asking to re-rent the points.  For all the owner knows if the renter isn't able to re-rent the points they might end up going.



I am confused.  If the renter doesn’t want to go and wants the owner to rent to someone else, how is that not a cancelation?

Still requires the owner to basically Enter into a new agreement with a new renter.

When resorts were closed, things were different, but now it Reallt does fall into the category of a renter cancellation if they are asking the owner to change names, 

People can say it’s not a big deal, but one of the reasons owners paid David’s  $4.50 a point was so they didn’t have to do anything once original reservation was done.


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> I am confused.  If the renter doesn’t want to go and wants the owner to rent to someone else, how is that not a cancelation?
> 
> Still requires the owner to basically Enter into a new agreement with a new renter.
> 
> When resorts were closed, things were different, but now it Reallt does fall into the category of a renter cancellation if they are asking the owner to change names,
> 
> People can say it’s not a big deal, but one of the reasons owners paid David’s  $4.50 a point was so they didn’t have to do anything once original reservation was done.



They told me that if the owner agrees with trying to re-rent and if someone bites and reservation is transferred to someone else, at that point it can't be undone.  At that point my reservation would be effectively cancelled.  Until then it's still my reservation.  I paid for it.  I didn't tell david's and the owner to keep my money and take back the reservation and congratulations on the windfall to the owner.  

I'm honestly confused how this is difficult to understand.  Owners absolutely will be paid the 30% because no one will be getting any refunds or vouchers unless the points are able to be re-rented.  Renters will not be getting their money back, and for that reason those points belong to the renter and if they don't want to use them, it's their prerogative to waste them.  The owner got paid for those points.

The reservation is non refundable and the resorts are open.  Things were more complicated when the resorts were closed.  Renters like me might not love the situation now, but we should understand it (and I do).  What I absolutely will not accept is paying for those points and having the owner use them for themselves anyway.  We have a contract, the reservation is mine up until the moment it's transferred and if it's not transferred, it stays mine unless you want to pay me back.  

Owners have a right to refuse to work with the renters and even try to re-rent the points, but that's pretty mean IMO.


----------



## Best Aunt

Dixie1337 said:


> I'm honestly confused how this is difficult to understand.  Owners absolutely will be paid the 30% because no one will be getting any refunds or vouchers unless the points are able to be re-rented.



Now I’m confused.  How do you know that owners will absolutely be paid the 30%?  The company in question has taken steps in the recent past which attempted to treat the owners in a less than honorable fashion.  I’m not sure why you are absolutely convinced that the company will act in an honorable way toward the owners in the future.


----------



## Dixie1337

Best Aunt said:


> Now I’m confused.  How do you know that owners will absolutely be paid the 30%?  The company in question has taken steps in the recent past which attempted to treat the owners in a less than honorable fashion.  I’m not sure why you are absolutely convinced that the company will act in an honorable way toward the owners in the future.



That happened when the resorts were closed.  It was a complicated situation.  This situation is very straightforward.  If you rented points and don't want to go/can't go, but the resort is open, that's on you.  They were also giving vouchers out during that time without it being necessary to try to rerent the reservation, since there was no reservation.  It was an entirely different scenario.


----------



## fancymouse

Sandisw said:


> I am confused.  If the renter doesn’t want to go and wants the owner to rent to someone else, how is that not a cancelation?
> 
> Still requires the owner to basically Enter into a new agreement with a new renter.
> 
> When resorts were closed, things were different, but now it Reallt does fall into the category of a renter cancellation if they are asking the owner to change names,
> 
> People can say it’s not a big deal, but one of the reasons owners paid David’s  $4.50 a point was so they didn’t have to do anything once original reservation was done.


I saw the correspondence David’s sent in that other thread talking about this specific situation (resorts open) and there is no new contract. They said specifically that it would be the _same_ contract just with the names changed. Unless the original reservation was made under the new contracts, if the resorts were to close again they said it would be handled the same way the others were. Owners wouldn’t get the 30% but David’s could also not force them to pay anything back. I’m sure if it was the original renter still they would get a voucher. Maybe a renter who bought the discounted reservation would get one too? Seems like a stretch but I haven’t seen anyone talking about this from the renter’s side. Anyway I think people are confusing the two re-rental situations (closed vs. open) as they are being handled differently.


----------



## Sandisw

fancymouse said:


> I saw the correspondence David’s sent in that other thread talking about this specific situation (resorts open) and there is no new contract. They said specifically that it would be the _same_ contract just with the names changed. Unless the original reservation was made under the new contracts, if the resorts were to close again they said it would be handled the same way the others were. Owners wouldn’t get the 30% but David’s could also not force them to pay anything back. I’m sure if it was the original renter still they would get a voucher. Maybe a renter who bought the discounted reservation would get one too? Seems like a stretch but I haven’t seen anyone talking about this from the renter’s side. Anyway I think people are confusing the two re-rental situations (closed vs. open) as they are being handled differently.



My response was for the renters listing confirmed reservations by asking the owners to change names since resorts closed wouodnt apply.

It is possible things are getting confused, but most posts lately have been about renters wanting not to go and from owners being asked to agree to let the renter out of the contract by at least agreeing to change the renters.

Just pointing out that in these cases, it is indeed a renter canceling out.


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> My response was for the renters listing confirmed reservations by asking the owners to change names since resorts closed wouodnt apply.
> 
> It is possible things are getting confused, but most posts lately have been about renters wanting not to go and from owners being asked to agree to let the renter out of the contract by at least agreeing to change the renters.
> 
> Just pointing out that in these cases, it is indeed a renter canceling out.



Not cancelling out.  Attempting to cancel out.  Nothing is cancelled and the old contract is still valid until a new renter is secured.


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> Not cancelling out.  Attempting to cancel out.  Nothing is cancelled and the old contract is still valid until a new renter is secured.



Technically, yes, it is not canceled until day of check in, but the point remains the same.

Original renters don’t want to go and there is at least one report so far that when an owner pushed the broker, they were told they would owe money back if resort is closed.

I just don’t think it’s as cut and dry that an owner isn’t signing up for different terms, even when agreeing to a name change...


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> Technically, yes, it is not canceled until day of check in, but the point remains the same.
> 
> Original renters don’t want to go and there is at least one report so far that when an owner pushed the broker, they were told they would owe money back if resort is closed.
> 
> I just don’t think it’s as cut and dry that an owner isn’t signing up for different terms, even when agreeing to a name change...



It's an important distinction to make when some people are thinking about changing the name on the reservation to use themselves 24-72 hours before check in if david's can't find a re-renter.  At that point nothing was cancelled and you've broken the contract you have with the renter.


----------



## JGard911

Sandisw said:


> My response was for the renters listing confirmed reservations by asking the owners to change names since resorts closed wouodnt apply.
> 
> It is possible things are getting confused, but most posts lately have been about renters wanting not to go and from owners being asked to agree to let the renter out of the contract by at least agreeing to change the renters.
> 
> Just pointing out that in these cases, it is indeed a renter canceling out.



What would you do when the renter is requesting to cancel out because Disney is telling them they can not come on Disney property.  That is currently the case for Tri-State area people (CT, NY,NJ).  Holding people to resort reservations when the parks were not open was bad enough.  Who goes on vacation to sit in a hotel room?   But now holding people to resort reservations they cant actually use is just obnoxious.


----------



## Sandisw

JGard911 said:


> What would you do when the renter is requesting to cancel out because Disney is telling them they can not come on Disney property.  That is currently the case for Tri-State area people (CT, NY,NJ).  Holding people to resort reservations when the parks were not open was bad enough.  Who goes on vacation to sit in a hotel room?   But now holding people to resort reservations they cant actually use is just obnoxious.



Hopefully, they have travel insurance that might cover it.  If not, unfortunately, the renter is really out of luck.

These are a private reservation that is from an owner, even when a broker Is used. 

It certainly isn an owners fault if there is an order. They sold something they can deliver. I know it sounds harsh, but this type of situation is one of the drawbacks of renting vs. cash with Disney   You are stuck if you can’t go, no matter what the reason.

Personally, this is the reason why I think the rental market will take a hit


----------



## JGard911

Travel insurance doesn't cover a pandemic.

But no one is "stuck".  Selling something with no value is against the law. (Doctrine of impossibility, contracts lacking _force majeure_ or excuse of performance provisions)
Small claims court or filing a complaint with a credit card company probably will.  I have seen many credit card companies deciding in favor of the renter. 

This is going to destroy your industry with the negative feedback it is going to create and live with for a very long time.


----------



## fancymouse

Sandisw said:


> My response was for the renters listing confirmed reservations by asking the owners to change names since resorts closed wouodnt apply.
> 
> It is possible things are getting confused, but most posts lately have been about renters wanting not to go and from owners being asked to agree to let the renter out of the contract by at least agreeing to change the renters.
> 
> Just pointing out that in these cases, it is indeed a renter canceling out.


In the end it technically is, but I think the issue is that they aren't necessarily "cancelling" yet and it's more likely they are calling to find out their options. Most probably don't know the owners are getting this information. I have a feeling that for some renters if they knew that the owners could officially cancel their reservation and somehow still get the points for future use they'd be pretty upset. Owners expecting that (and full payment or even 70% for that matter) is as questionable as renters expecting a full refund without understanding the nuances of renting/DVC point system. It's just another tough situation where people on both sides have valid arguments, but in order for logic to prevail it would take the renter being completely understanding and getting no refund (or compensation) while also knowing their owner got all of their money (minus David's fee) and is going to possibly get a vacation on the same points meant for them. Some might be okay with that (given there are no other options), but other would probably balk at the idea. 



Sandisw said:


> I just don’t think it’s as cut and dry that an owner isn’t signing up for different terms, even when agreeing to a name change...


I only know that in the other thread that the OP posted the correspondence between themself and David's. They posted all of the responses which included scenarios about closing again etc. David's said that they would get the 30% regardless of re-rental or not should the resort be open and if the resort closed again they would lose the 30% regardless of re-rental or not. I doubt they are telling different people different things about this particular situation. If I had to bet it probably has more to do with posters not clarifying what they mean by "re-rent" and what the circumstances are. They are definitely handling closure reservations differently than reservations now that the resorts are open again, but maybe I missed a post in this incredibly long thread...lol


----------



## Sandisw

JGard911 said:


> Travel insurance doesn't cover a pandemic.
> 
> But no one is "stuck".  Selling something with no value is against the law. (Doctrine of impossibility, contracts lacking _force majeure_ or excuse of performance provisions)
> Small claims court or filing a complaint with a credit card company probably will.  I have seen many credit card companies deciding in favor of the renter.
> 
> This is going to destroy your industry with the negative feedback it is going to create and live with for a very long time.



But, those that have won did so when the resort was closed.  What a renter has purchased...a reservation...which is legally allowed via an owners contract...is available.

Unless the contract specifically says a renter can back out, even with the resort is open, they would be indeed stuck.

I do agree with you, as I said, that this will make renting much less popular because of the no refunds aspect of them.


----------



## Sandisw

fancymouse said:


> In the end it technically is, but I think the issue is that they aren't necessarily "cancelling" yet and it's more likely they are calling to find out their options. Most probably don't know the owners are getting this information. I have a feeling that for some renters if they knew that the owners could officially cancel their reservation and somehow still get the points for future use they'd be pretty upset. Owners expecting that (and full payment or even 70% for that matter) is as questionable as renters expecting a full refund without understanding the nuances of renting/DVC point system. It's just another tough situation where people on both sides have valid arguments, but in order for logic to prevail it would take the renter being completely understanding and getting no refund (or compensation) while also knowing their owner got all of their money (minus David's fee) and is going to possibly get a vacation on the same points meant for them. Some might be okay with that (given there are no other options), but other would probably balk at the idea.
> 
> 
> I only know that in the other thread that the OP posted the correspondence between themself and David's. They posted all of the responses which included scenarios about closing again etc. David's said that they would get the 30% regardless of re-rental or not should the resort be open and if the resort closed again they would lose the 30% regardless of re-rental or not. I doubt they are telling different people different things about this particular situation. If I had to bet it probably has more to do with posters not clarifying what they mean by "re-rent" and what the circumstances are. They are definitely handling closure reservations differently than reservations now that the resorts are open again, but maybe I missed a post in this incredibly long thread...lol



To be fair, only the owner can actually cancel a reservation. All a renter can do is not show up.

An owner with the broker can’t even do that, so really, in all these instances, the reservation will never be canceled...it will just be forfeited when the renter does not go.

After all that has happened, not sure this broker can be trusted..but, all owners dealing with him will have to make a decision if they want to.


----------



## JGard911

fancymouse said:


> I have a feeling that for some renters if they knew that the owners could officially cancel their reservation and somehow still get the points for future use they'd be pretty upset.



Thats an understatement of all time.  Do you really think owners should get paid for something they dont actually give up?  Wow   Don't have to go to law school to know that's illegal.   Can I call you to testify during class action lawsuits?


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> It certainly isn an owners fault if there is an order.



It's not their fault, no but it also isn't okay for an owner to keep money that was paid for a product that the renter can't use for reasons beyond their control.  People need to look beyond what is on paper here and search their conscience to do what is right.


----------



## Sandisw

Dentam said:


> It's not their fault, no but it also isn't okay for an owner to keep money that was paid for a product that the renter can't use for reasons beyond their control.  People need to look beyond what is on paper here and search their conscience to do what is right.



This is what bothers me in this. All of a sudden it’s on the owner?

Renting has risks and this is one of them. Don’t forget that many owners rent excess points for a reason.

Agree to disagree that an owner who holds a renter to their contract is in the wrong.


----------



## Dentam

Sandisw said:


> This is what bothers me in this. All of a sudden it’s on the owner?
> 
> Renting has risks and this is one of them. Don’t forget that many owners rent excess points for a reason.
> 
> Agree to disagree that an owner who holds a renter to their contract is in the wrong.



Yep, agree to disagree for sure.


----------



## fancymouse

JGard911 said:


> Thats an understatement of all time.  Do you really think owners should get paid for something they dont actually give up?  Wow   Don't have to go to law school to know that's illegal.   Can I call you to testify during class action lawsuits?


I don't have a dog in this particular fight. I was just referrencing a poster who contemplated cancelling the reservation in the case they knew the room couldn't be re-rented and the original renter couldn't go. For the record I don't think they were trying to be malicious and I took it as more of a concern as to points going to waste and that does seem unnecessary (assuming there is someone who _would_ go). 

In the end, even if the renter could absolutely not go, I think they'd be upset if the owner did this. Logically, this does not make a whole lot of sense since the alternative is for the room to just be empty and to be fair, you'd also need to acknowledge David's would likely not facilitate any of the other possible solutions, so it's not really the owner's fault either. 

First, even if an owner felt an obligation to give the money back, a renter would not receive it. David's has been keeping refunds in order to provide vouchers. In that case David's _might_ give you a voucher, but honestly I doubt it. Since the resort is open, the contract does explicitly state the renter would be cancelling. (I get there are extenuating circumstances in the case of NYs or Canadians etc, but for most, it is ultimately a choice and whether they like it or not that's what the contract says). 

Also in a situation where the points may have a longer usage and aren't expiring anytime soon, it sounds like David's isn't even offering the option to push the reservation.

Another option might be to give the reservation to a friend or someone the renter chooses. Renters have the right to do this up to 30 days in advance (IIRC), but let's say a renter decides to wait and see if the reservation re-rents, unless David's gives an exception they wouldn't even let you give your reservation to someone at the last minute.

Basically the only two options are to let the room sit empty or (possibly) let the owner try to save the points. The latter requires the renter to be selfless. I think in a situation like this where a renter is left with no options, it would seem like the right thing to do. Maybe that's just me.  In reality this is a moot point because David's will most likely enforce the contract in order to keep them legally protected, so I doubt they would let owners officially cancel _and _keep the money even if that meant the room will be unused.


----------



## Sandisw

JGard911 said:


> Thats an understatement of all time.  Do you really think owners should get paid for something they dont actually give up?  Wow   Don't have to go to law school to know that's illegal.   Can I call you to testify during class action lawsuits?



I think that is why owners who went with brokers wont do that. It violates the contract without permission from The broker.

The only way an owner will is if they strike a deal with the renter and the broker that all agree to in a way to amend the contract.

From most posts I have read, owners are simply allowing the reservations o be fulfilled as is now resorts are open.


----------



## Dixie1337

fancymouse said:


> I don't have a dog in this particular fight. I was just referrencing a poster who contemplated cancelling the reservation in the case they knew the room couldn't be re-rented and the original renter couldn't go. For the record I don't think they were trying to be malicious and I took it as more of a concern as to points going to waste and that does seem unnecessary (assuming there is someone who _would_ go).
> 
> In the end, even if the renter could absolutely not go, I think they'd be upset if the owner did this. Logically, this does not make a whole lot of sense since the alternative is for the room to just be empty and to be fair, you'd also need to acknowledge David's would likely not facilitate any of the other possible solutions, so it's not really the owner's fault either.
> 
> First, even if an owner felt an obligation to give the money back, a renter would not receive it. David's has been keeping refunds in order to provide vouchers. In that case David's _might_ give you a voucher, but honestly I doubt it. Since the resort is open, the contract does explicitly state the renter would be cancelling. (I get there are extenuating circumstances in the case of NYs or Canadians etc, but for most, it is ultimately a choice and whether they like it or not that's what the contract says).
> 
> Also in a situation where the points may have a longer usage and aren't expiring anytime soon, it sounds like David's isn't even offering the option to push the reservation.
> 
> Another option might be to give the reservation to a friend or someone the renter chooses. Renters have the right to do this up to 30 days in advance (IIRC), but let's say a renter decides to wait and see if the reservation re-rents, unless David's gives an exception they wouldn't even let you give your reservation to someone at the last minute.
> 
> Basically the only two options are to let the room sit empty or (possibly) let the owner try to save the points. The latter requires the renter to be selfless. I think in a situation like this where a renter is left with no options, it would seem like the right thing to do. Maybe that's just me.  In reality this is a moot point because David's will most likely enforce the contract in order to keep them legally protected, so I doubt they would let owners officially cancel _and _keep the money even if that meant the room will be unused.



Another option is for the owner to cancel or change the name on the reservation at which point the contract is broken and the renter would be refunded unless the owner can provide the renter with comparable accommodations to sit empty.  The owner isn't going to do that, and the renter isn't going to do what you proposed either.  As the renter I'm especially not going to do that because I get left with literally nothing and the owner always walks away with something, either money or the reservation.  I'll take the empty room.


----------



## fancymouse

Dixie1337 said:


> Another option is for the owner to cancel or change the name on the reservation at which point the contract is broken and the renter would be refunded unless the owner can provide the renter with comparable accommodations to sit empty.  The owner isn't going to do that, and the renter isn't going to do what you proposed either.  As the renter I'm especially not going to do that because I get left with literally nothing and the owner always walks away with something, either money or the reservation.  I'll take the empty room.


I mean, I get it and contractually you have every right to do this. We have a November rental and since we live in FL we’ll probably wait until the last minute to make a decision. Theoretically, if I could allow my owner to cancel and recoup their points (assuming we decide not to go), I would hope that karma rewards me some day!!  Honestly, I am inspired by the owners who said they refunded the money without hesitation because their renters didn’t get their vacation. I know not everyone was in a position to do this, but in my situation, I would lose nothing I wouldn’t already be losing, so I might as well pay it forward! But hopefully your reservation re-rents and everyone wins! Good luck!!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I was in same situation with Aulani _ I had and have horses on both sides of this as renter and as Owner
Speaking as renter here - before resort closed I couldn’t go travel bans were in place never was I blaming Owner- my blame lies with the Company that handled the deal and made a commission - David’s - since he wouldn’t work with me I did a chargeback LONG before my checkin since resort was closed thru my checkin date and won my dispute
Speaking as an Owner - I have 3 rentals / 2 impacted with resort closures - I’m struggling with working with this shady company trying to rent my points with them as every time you speak to them it’s a different story abd they uphold nothing
I do not trust them one bit as they have no value.
I really believe most people are wanting and trying to do the right thing with one HUGE exception being David’s
Yes I feel sorry beyond words for someone who had a resv and doesn’t want to go and would lose the money - as an Owner I expect to be paid - period the end
As a renter I would pray they close the resort and I’d file a chargeback as there is no way on God’s  green Earth I would take that voucher !!


----------



## AquaDame

WDWEPCOT said:


> I was in same situation with Aulani _ I had and have horses on both sides of this as renter and as Owner
> Speaking as renter here - before resort closed I couldn’t go travel bans were in place never was I blaming Owner- my blame lies with the Company that handled the deal and made a commission - David’s - since he wouldn’t work with me I did a chargeback LONG before my checkin since resort was closed thru my checkin date and won my dispute
> Speaking as an Owner - I have 3 rentals / 2 impacted with resort closures - I’m struggling with working with this shady company trying to rent my points with them as every time you speak to them it’s a different story abd they uphold nothing
> I do not trust them one bit as they have no value.
> I really believe most people are wanting and trying to do the right thing with one HUGE exception being David’s
> Yes I feel sorry beyond words for someone who had a resv and doesn’t want to go and would lose the money - as an Owner I expect to be paid - period the end
> As a renter I would pray they close the resort and I’d file a chargeback as there is no way on God’s  green Earth I would take that voucher !!



The problem is that "the right thing" is what is up for debate. If you go by the contract then its very cut and dry: resorts are open, so as long as owners do not cancel the reservation they are entitled to 100% of what they were promised, period. Everything following "but" doesn't hold water. It can leave whatever bitter taste in your mouth you like, but it still is what the contract explicitly states - these rooms are available.

People on these boards, which are by and large some of the nicest people I have ever head the pleasure to speak with, are saying exactly this. 

As a renter, I AM praying the resort closes again so I can try a charge back. If the numbers weren't gaining steam (this is not an invitation to argue anything at all, I am stating a fact that the numbers are still increasing and nothing else) then I wouldn't even be doing that because I KNOW now we messed up big time by renting. Y'all have drilled that into my head.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Well I wouldn’t go so far as to say you messed up renting - my stupid crystal ball didn’t tell me this mess was coming... who knew ???


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> The problem is that "the right thing" is what is up for debate. If you go by the contract then its very cut and dry: resorts are open, so as long as owners do not cancel the reservation they are entitled to 100% of what they were promised, period. Everything following "but" doesn't hold water. It can leave whatever bitter taste in your mouth you like, but it still is what the contract explicitly states - these rooms are available.
> 
> People on these boards, which are by and large some of the nicest people I have ever head the pleasure to speak with, are saying exactly this.
> 
> As a renter, I AM praying the resort closes again so I can try a charge back. If the numbers weren't gaining steam (this is not an invitation to argue anything at all, I am stating a fact that the numbers are still increasing and nothing else) then I wouldn't even be doing that because I KNOW now we messed up big time by renting. Y'all have drilled that into my head.



I also think that this entire situation has brought a lot to light for both owners and renters that no one even considered, including, it appears, the broker in dealing with a resort closure,

IMO, its a bad situation all the way around now that things are open and there really is no right or wrong answer as each situation is different. 

I am sorry you will be stuck if the resort does not close and you are forced to simply go or lose out.


----------



## Dentam

AquaDame said:


> If you go by the contract then its very cut and dry: resorts are open, so as long as owners do not cancel the reservation they are entitled to 100% of what they were promised, period. Everything following "but" doesn't hold water. It can leave whatever bitter taste in your mouth you like, but it still is what the contract explicitly states - these rooms are available.



And what I am saying is that people need to look beyond what is on paper.  It may take government intervention at this point - similar to what has been done already (and more that is being proposed) for the airline industry.  Unfortunately companies won't always do what is right on their own.  Forcing people to either lose all of their money or go against travel restrictions to enter an area that is considered a hot spot right now is simply not right.  It also goes against what the government is trying to institute in terms of public health and safety.  I don't care what any contract says.


----------



## Minniesgal

Sandisw said:


> This is what bothers me in this. All of a sudden it’s on the owner?
> 
> Renting has risks and this is one of them. Don’t forget that many owners rent excess points for a reason.
> 
> Agree to disagree that an owner who holds a renter to their contract is in the wrong.




Agree with this, this is situation normal is a renter rents points and decides for whatever reason not to go.

The whole reason renters get reduced price stays is because they are accepting the cancellation risk.  If it were risk free those points would rent a lot higher.

At the end of the day if a renter cancels late the chances of an owner getting back points they can actually use is slim to none.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

It didn’t seem to matter to David’s when Hawaii had travel restrictions and renters would have been held hostage in rooms or sent right back home - then when Aulani closed he still didn’t care - he’s only looking out for $$$ and all he has accomplished is making Owners mad and putting Renters against Owners 
There is not a good solution to this problem no matter how it is sliced someone or everyone (except David it seems ) is getting screwed -  renters lose money if don’t go or  risk virus which they could catch anywhere - Owners may be left with worthless points or demands to return funds or forced into terms they don’t agree with 
The one person holding all the cards and making all of this worse is who ??? David’s the company you paid a commission to so you would not have problems ! As Dr Phil would say - How’s that working for ya??


----------



## cvjw

Dixie1337 said:


> That happened when the resorts were closed.  It was a complicated situation.  This situation is very straightforward.  If you rented points and don't want to go/can't go, but the resort is open, that's on you.  They were also giving vouchers out during that time without it being necessary to try to rerent the reservation, since there was no reservation.  It was an entirely different scenario.



Nope - happened to me when the resorts were open in March, but the parks were closing. My renters were to check in while the resorts were 100% open for their trip, but the parks were only open a few days. David’s did not want to pay the final 30% on checkin day. I wouldn’t give David’s as much credit to treat the owners fairly as you are doing.


----------



## Dixie1337

cvjw said:


> Nope - happened to me when the resorts were open in March, but the parks were closing. My renters were to check in while the resorts were 100% open for their trip, but the parks were only open a few days. David’s did not want to pay the final 30% on checkin day. I wouldn’t give David’s as much credit to treat the owners fairly as you are doing.



well... the parks are open too


----------



## cvjw

Dixie1337 said:


> well... the parks are open too



The parks being open for only half the week didn’t play into the decision by David’s to try and not pay me what they owed me. They tried not to pay because they could - not like I am going to Canada to take them to small claims court to try and recoup my money. I would not be shocked if they did the same to others.


----------



## CincyKen

Hello Everyone!

Longtime lurker but rare poster here.  Today I received a letter from my bank credit card stating that my chargeback request has been resolved in my favor. This was for a 6 night Jambo reservation that was to begin on 5/13.

I just wanted to thank everyone for all of the great information in this thread. Without it, it wouldn't have even occurred to me to pursue a chargeback. Much appreciated!


----------



## SageG

I wanted to share the fantastic news with the group that two of my six credit card disputes with David's have been permanently resolved in my favor.  (I had 3 rooms reserved, so one dispute for each deposit and one dispute for each balance payment.)  For the two disputes that were resolved, I never submitted any paperwork as the Chase representative took the information over the phone and that was it.  David's responded to my dispute by saying the contract was nonrefundable, but the Chase representative I spoke with said his argument was not valid and that he would have to prove that he provided the services that I paid for (Chase rejected his argument without asking for any documentation from me).  

For the remaining four disputes, I had to complete paperwork with Chase, so I submitted the contracts, an explanation of the situation, etc.  Those four are still pending, but the Chase representative said they would expect those disputes to be resolved similarly in the next few weeks.  All charges were made on my Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Many thanks to this group for the great information shared via this thread over the past several months.  I'm crossing my fingers for all of you that filed disputes that you have a similar outcome!


----------



## Chrisv28

I have a reservation in the first week of September. I am Canadian, and there is a travel ban. David’s is offering the same solution “if the reservation gets rented”, I would get a travel credit. I am 100% ok with it, but I don’t think they’ll be able to rent it at that price. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should go about trying to get my money back?!


----------



## Dixie1337

Chrisv28 said:


> I have a reservation in the first week of September. I am Canadian, and there is a travel ban. David’s is offering the same solution “if the reservation gets rented”, I would get a travel credit. I am 100% ok with it, but I don’t think they’ll be able to rent it at that price. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should go about trying to get my money back?!



I don’t think you can.  The resorts are open and you agreed to a nonrefundable reservation.  Also you could travel by air if you wanted to but who would want to, and also you wouldn’t be covered for any COVID related medical expenses that might come up while you’re there and again who would want to go under those conditions.  But... non refundable


----------



## Chrisv28

Dixie1337 said:


> I don’t think you can.  The resorts are open and you agreed to a nonrefundable reservation.  Also you could travel by air if you wanted to but who would want to, and also you wouldn’t be covered for any COVID related medical expenses that might come up while you’re there and again who would want to go under those conditions.  But... non refundable



True. I was hoping there’d be something legally preventing David’s from doing This. But honestly I don’t think there is


----------



## Sandisw

Chrisv28 said:


> True. I was hoping there’d be something legally preventing David’s from doing This. But honestly I don’t think there is



There really isn’t anything legally that allows you out of the contract as what you rented is available.  

Unfortunately, this situation has brought to light the real risks of renting something that is non refundable and that things can happen outside our control that can put us at a loss.

I am sorry you can’t make the trip.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Chrisv28 said:


> I have a reservation in the first week of September. I am Canadian, and there is a travel ban. David’s is offering the same solution “if the reservation gets rented”, I would get a travel credit. I am 100% ok with it, but I don’t think they’ll be able to rent it at that price. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should go about trying to get my money back?!



Im sure if this was applicable to you you wouldn’t be asking, but just incase I *think* our insurance (Canadian, purchased pre pandemic) would have covered this scenario as it covered travel advisories past a certain level. Didn’t work out for us to get our money back because of the closure, but again just incase you do have insurance.


----------



## Chrisv28

DGsAtBLT said:


> Im sure if this was applicable to you you wouldn’t be asking, but just incase I *think* our insurance (Canadian, purchased pre pandemic) would have covered this scenario as it covered travel advisories past a certain level. Didn’t work out for us to get our money back because of the closure, but again just incase you do have insurance.


We do have the cancellation insurance on our cc, except it only covers up to $1500 Canadian per person.. better then nothing but I don’t think they’ll even cover it anyway as it’s a timeshare


----------



## cm8

Chrisv28 said:


> We do have the cancellation insurance on our cc, except it only covers up to $1500 Canadian per person.. better then nothing but I don’t think they’ll even cover it anyway as it’s a timeshare


In my opinion, I’d put forth a claim and submit the information pursuant to my reasoning and see what they say. The most they can do is say no.


----------



## graychef

An update for the group:

I filed two chargeback claims (deposit and balance) against David’s for a Grand Californian reservation that was cancelled in June. Prior to the cancellation, I attempted twice to resolve the issue by offering flexibility of the reservation dates and by offering to replace my reservation for a Dedicated Reservation posted on the website. I emailed in April and again in May. I got the canned response both times. I was offered a voucher in late May and I immediately called to file the chargebacks. Did everything over the phone but had my documents prepared in case I needed.

I was notified today that one chargeback (balance) has been resolved in my favor. Still waiting on the deposit but I’m not too concerned about that. Disney Chase Visa.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

cm8 said:


> In my opinion, I’d put forth a claim and submit the information pursuant to my reasoning and see what they say. The most they can do is say no.


I agree with this.  Especially if you bought the travel insurance before COVID started.  File the claim, and appeal it at least once if they reject it.  As said before, the worse that happens is they say no and you still don't have any money.  But if they cover even part of the claim, that's better than nothing!


----------



## Minniesgal

Chrisv28 said:


> I have a reservation in the first week of September. I am Canadian, and there is a travel ban. David’s is offering the same solution “if the reservation gets rented”, I would get a travel credit. I am 100% ok with it, but I don’t think they’ll be able to rent it at that price. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should go about trying to get my money back?!



If the resorts are open I don't think you can get a refund


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Just curious... I've seen a lot of posts on DISboards referring to the current "fire sale" rental prices, but I've looked at a few websites and I'm only seeing what I would consider typical rental prices.  Can anyone point me in the right direction to find where those listings are?  Thanks.


----------



## Marionnette

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Just curious... I've seen a lot of posts on DISboards referring to the current "fire sale" rental prices, but I've looked at a few websites and I'm only seeing what I would consider typical rental prices.  Can anyone point me in the right direction to find where those listings are?  Thanks.


Try some of the DVC Facebook groups.


----------



## Brianstl

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Just curious... I've seen a lot of posts on DISboards referring to the current "fire sale" rental prices, but I've looked at a few websites and I'm only seeing what I would consider typical rental prices.  Can anyone point me in the right direction to find where those listings are?  Thanks.


David’s had dedicated rentals at $9 a point last week.  Not sure if they are still up on the site or not.


----------



## DGsAtBLT

Brianstl said:


> David’s had dedicated rentals at $9 a point last week.  Not sure if they are still up on the site or not.



I saw them advertised on Facebook earlier today.


----------



## Best Aunt

I think i’m allowed to link this:
https://dvcrequest.com/dvc-guests/dedicated-reservations-for-rent
There’s another company renting at $10 per point but not allowed to post link


----------



## starry_solo

Chrisv28 said:


> I have a reservation in the first week of September. I am Canadian, and there is a travel ban. David’s is offering the same solution “if the reservation gets rented”, I would get a travel credit. I am 100% ok with it, but I don’t think they’ll be able to rent it at that price. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I should go about trying to get my money back?!



try insurance if you have it. Credit cardis unlikely to resolve in your favor since this isn’t the fault of the merchant and the product (reservatio) is available with the resort being open. Tell David’s you’ll take half the funds back and tell them to fire sale the reservation if you want cash back, which is what I would suggest.


----------



## starry_solo

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Just curious... I've seen a lot of posts on DISboards referring to the current "fire sale" rental prices, but I've looked at a few websites and I'm only seeing what I would consider typical rental prices.  Can anyone point me in the right direction to find where those listings are?  Thanks.



only for really upcoming reservations. Not for stuff later in the year


----------



## lawboy2001

Grumpy by Birth said:


> Just curious... I've seen a lot of posts on DISboards referring to the current "fire sale" rental prices, but I've looked at a few websites and I'm only seeing what I would consider typical rental prices.  Can anyone point me in the right direction to find where those listings are?  Thanks.



https://dvcrequest.com.  rentals coming up in the next few weeks are listed for about 9$ a point, which is about half price.


----------



## connorlevismom

David's emailed me this morning that they had found a renter for the points that I agreed to re-rent (I am the owner). I responded with the following:

I just wanted to confirm a few things before I move forward:

What happens if the resorts close again? Am I obligated to pay back any money to anyone?
I understand that the new renters are signing a new contract with you, but I am not signing a new contract with them (or you). I would like to see a copy of the contract that they are signing so that I can make sure I am comfortable with it and it does not tie me to anything that I am not aware of.
I just wanted to clarify that I will be receiving the remaining 30% that I am owed, no matter what, in addition to $360.00 ($2.00X180 points).
 So far I have heard nothing back, but will let everyone know what they say. I think people are interested in hearing their response to these questions.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Excellent questions I’ve asked several of them -  I’ve been down this path - they lie - I don’t trust them and we are in a break - as to # 1, if it’s not in your contract - why ask David to give you new terms you have not agreed to? You will need to work that one out otherwise you may be in and endless loop until your points are toast


----------



## Dixie1337

connorlevismom said:


> David's emailed me this morning that they had found a renter for the points that I agreed to re-rent (I am the owner). I responded with the following:



when is the reservation for?  I hope for the original renter's sake this works out.


----------



## connorlevismom

Dixie1337 said:


> when is the reservation for?  I hope for the original renter's sake this works out.



Mid-August.


----------



## connorlevismom

Here is the response:

1. If the resorts close again, we will inquire if you would be able to/willing to assist in either returning the 70% that has been paid out, or re-renting the points should DVC choose to return them.

2. Your points are being rented under the old Intermediary Agreement. With everything that has taken place during this pandemic, we have had to make some adjustments to the contracts, however your points will not fall under the new Intermediary Agreement unless you list them again. Re-rental of your points also falls under the old Intermediary Agreement as this is what they were agreed upon with.

 With that being said, if we find a family to successfully take over the booking, their Rental Agreement would be under the new agreement, which can be found in the link below. The only portion that has changed for the Rental Agreement is that we have added a Force Majeure clearly defining that the guests will receive a travel credit under such circumstances. In the event of a Force Majeure, we would ask what is mentioned above in point #1, either returning the 70% already paid out, or re-renting the points that have been returned from the resort closure.

3. As long as the reservation remains in good standing and the resort is open and available for guests to use, it does not matter whether the reservation is resold to another family or not, the remaining 30% would be paid out on the scheduled date of check-in. The additional $2/pt would be paid upon making the modification and the new family making payment, not on the date of check-in but before!


I am not really sure what to do. In once instance, the reservation is only a couple of weeks away so I don't think resorts will be closing. However, I DO NOT want to be stuck holding the bag should something go sideways. In another instance, I do want to help the original renters as much as possible.

Thoughts?


----------



## Dixie1337

connorlevismom said:


> Here is the response:
> 
> 1. If the resorts close again, we will inquire if you would be able to/willing to assist in either returning the 70% that has been paid out, or re-renting the points should DVC choose to return them.
> 
> 2. Your points are being rented under the old Intermediary Agreement. With everything that has taken place during this pandemic, we have had to make some adjustments to the contracts, however your points will not fall under the new Intermediary Agreement unless you list them again. Re-rental of your points also falls under the old Intermediary Agreement as this is what they were agreed upon with.
> 
> With that being said, if we find a family to successfully take over the booking, their Rental Agreement would be under the new agreement, which can be found in the link below. The only portion that has changed for the Rental Agreement is that we have added a Force Majeure clearly defining that the guests will receive a travel credit under such circumstances. In the event of a Force Majeure, we would ask what is mentioned above in point #1, either returning the 70% already paid out, or re-renting the points that have been returned from the resort closure.
> 
> 3. As long as the reservation remains in good standing and the resort is open and available for guests to use, it does not matter whether the reservation is resold to another family or not, the remaining 30% would be paid out on the scheduled date of check-in. The additional $2/pt would be paid upon making the modification and the new family making payment, not on the date of check-in but before!
> 
> 
> I am not really sure what to do. In once instance, the reservation is only a couple of weeks away so I don't think resorts will be closing. However, I DO NOT want to be stuck holding the bag should something go sideways. In another instance, I do want to help the original renters as much as possible.
> 
> Thoughts?



I think they're going to ask the same of you/not give you the 30% if the resorts are closed whether or not you re-rent.  I don't see what you have to lose, but you have to gain $2/pt.

p.s. as a renter I am biased lol, but I think this is true regardless.


----------



## Sandisw

connorlevismom said:


> Here is the response:
> 
> 1. If the resorts close again, we will inquire if you would be able to/willing to assist in either returning the 70% that has been paid out, or re-renting the points should DVC choose to return them.
> 
> 2. Your points are being rented under the old Intermediary Agreement. With everything that has taken place during this pandemic, we have had to make some adjustments to the contracts, however your points will not fall under the new Intermediary Agreement unless you list them again. Re-rental of your points also falls under the old Intermediary Agreement as this is what they were agreed upon with.
> 
> With that being said, if we find a family to successfully take over the booking, their Rental Agreement would be under the new agreement, which can be found in the link below. The only portion that has changed for the Rental Agreement is that we have added a Force Majeure clearly defining that the guests will receive a travel credit under such circumstances. In the event of a Force Majeure, we would ask what is mentioned above in point #1, either returning the 70% already paid out, or re-renting the points that have been returned from the resort closure.
> 
> 3. As long as the reservation remains in good standing and the resort is open and available for guests to use, it does not matter whether the reservation is resold to another family or not, the remaining 30% would be paid out on the scheduled date of check-in. The additional $2/pt would be paid upon making the modification and the new family making payment, not on the date of check-in but before!
> 
> 
> I am not really sure what to do. In once instance, the reservation is only a couple of weeks away so I don't think resorts will be closing. However, I DO NOT want to be stuck holding the bag should something go sideways. In another instance, I do want to help the original renters as much as possible.
> 
> Thoughts?



I think the issue is that under current renters there is no mention of you having to re rent points or return funds.  You really are simply out the 30%.

However, I agree the chances of closing are slim. But a new agreement. iMO, puts you into a position to have to refund or rent again.

The current one gives you options.  With the rental in August, though, it might be worth the risk because it is so close to today’s date.


----------



## New Mouse

connorlevismom said:


> Here is the response:
> 
> 1. If the resorts close again, we will inquire if you would be able to/willing to assist in either returning the 70% that has been paid out, or re-renting the points should DVC choose to return them.
> 
> 2. Your points are being rented under the old Intermediary Agreement. With everything that has taken place during this pandemic, we have had to make some adjustments to the contracts, however your points will not fall under the new Intermediary Agreement unless you list them again. Re-rental of your points also falls under the old Intermediary Agreement as this is what they were agreed upon with.
> 
> With that being said, if we find a family to successfully take over the booking, their Rental Agreement would be under the new agreement, which can be found in the link below. The only portion that has changed for the Rental Agreement is that we have added a Force Majeure clearly defining that the guests will receive a travel credit under such circumstances. In the event of a Force Majeure, we would ask what is mentioned above in point #1, either returning the 70% already paid out, or re-renting the points that have been returned from the resort closure.
> 
> 3. As long as the reservation remains in good standing and the resort is open and available for guests to use, it does not matter whether the reservation is resold to another family or not, the remaining 30% would be paid out on the scheduled date of check-in. The additional $2/pt would be paid upon making the modification and the new family making payment, not on the date of check-in but before!
> 
> 
> I am not really sure what to do. In once instance, the reservation is only a couple of weeks away so I don't think resorts will be closing. However, I DO NOT want to be stuck holding the bag should something go sideways. In another instance, I do want to help the original renters as much as possible.
> 
> Thoughts?



There is 0 reason they cant pay you the 30% up front.  Its not like the guest hasnt paid them full freight up front.


----------



## connorlevismom

I ended up making the switch to the new renters. I couldn't, in good conscience, not do anything to help the original renter out. I figure at best, I made more money and at worst I would be out the same amount. Hopefully I made the right decision.


----------



## Dentam

I asked David's to take my rental off their dedicated rentals page. There were over 300 listed for Sept alone so chances were slim that it would be re-rented. My owner was at least willing to help me out by trying to re-rent which was very nice of her. Now just hoping we stay healthy.


----------



## connorlevismom

Just an update. I made the switch this morning and I did end up getting the extra $2.00 per point into my Paypal account just now. So they are transferring that money right away. I will get the remaining 30% on check-in day.


----------



## WanderlustinFP

Here’s an update on my chargeback. I had a split stay at Poly and AKV for a trip back in May.  Chase just informed me that my AKV reservation is fully refunded, but my Poly reservation is still pending. That doesn’t even make sense because I was supposed to check-in to Poly first. After waiting on the phone for over an hour to speak to a rep, she agreed that I should be receiving the Poly refund as well and to be patient. 

I charged both reservations to my Chase Sapphire card.


----------



## Frustrated renter

finally found out today I won my $5k chargeback on my April rental.  Hallelujah!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Wonderful news what a weight lifted off your shoulders !


----------



## Kevin_W

Lots of successes here recently.  Chase refunded the first of my 4 claims (split stay, so 2 deposits, 2 full charges).  The other 3 should follow shortly.


----------



## Galun

Great to see all the successful chargebacks.

On the other hand it really makes me wonder whether they will stay in business.


----------



## banzai75

Galun said:


> Great to see all the successful chargebacks.
> 
> On the other hand it really makes me wonder whether they will stay in business.



I think he got a lot of folks to take his voucher.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

banzai75 said:


> I think he got a lot of folks to take his voucher.


I've probably been as critical as anyone here about some of the actions the company took, but I sincerely hope that David's voucher plan works out for folks so they aren't left losing everything they invested in these vacations.


----------



## Bearval

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I've probably been as critical as anyone here about some of the actions the company took, but I sincerely hope that David's voucher plan works out for folks so they aren't left losing everything they invested in these vacations.


It appears by the posting that the majority of the cbargebacks are successful.  Unless he is getting some sort of bail out he is going struggle to stay afloat.


----------



## New Mouse

can everyone please not put him out til november so.i get paid for grand cal!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Bearval said:


> It appears by the posting that the majority of the cbargebacks are successful.  Unless he is getting some sort of bail out he is going struggle to stay afloat.


True, but as PP mentioned, there may be MANY more customers (many who aren't on these boards) who simply accepted vouchers rather than filing a chargeback.


----------



## Kaufeegurl

I used David's twice pre-COVID to rent out extra points. My only reservation at the time was that I thought the way they matched an owner to a renter was unprofessional and similar to a game show. I probably would have been looking for another company if I needed to rent extra points again. I have followed this thread with interest, and because of the way David's has handled the rental issues related with COVID (for both renter and owner), I am now sure I would never use him again. 2 weeks ago we made the difficult decision not to travel for our early December BCV reservation which is using banked points expiring 8/2021. I listed that reservation with The DVC Store and it was rented yesterday. The process was seamless and the team at The DVC Store was professional. 

I think David's will be lucky to survive as he needs owners with points to rent and I think there are a lot of owners (like myself) who will no longer do business with him.  I can only hope that he survives long enough to fulfill the vouchers for those poor renters that took them instead of doing a chargeback.


----------



## graychef

Grumpy by Birth said:


> I've probably been as critical as anyone here about some of the actions the company took, but I sincerely hope that David's voucher plan works out for folks so they aren't left losing everything they invested in these vacations.


What’s crazy is that I am driving to Orlando this week for a vacation. I knew that my Grand Californian reservation would need to be moved due to the closure. And I knew I wanted to go to Florida once things opened there. I offered a few options to change to a WDW reservation, even pointing out a few dedicated reservations I would opt for. Had David’s listened to that and offered something similar, I would not have filed for a chargeback. But nope. Many of these chargebacks could have been avoided. 

And I agree, I do hope all renters and owners who are transacting with David’s are accommodated fairly.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I would not gave filed either but he could have cared less and stated so - so I filed and thank you Chase I won - now I could care less if he goes out of business with the only exception beings the peeps who took his vouchers - I do hope they can get something out of that but with the way he continues it’s not looking good


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> I would not gave filed either but he could have cared less and stated so - so I filed and thank you Chase I won - now I could care less if he goes out of business with the only exception beings the peeps who took his vouchers - I do hope they can get something out of that but with the way he continues it’s not looking good


If he goes bankrup can the people who took the vouchers still file a chargeback then?  A few years ago I had a successful chargeback against a bankrup company,  my understanding is the credit card company took the hit.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I really don’t know - I believe someone posted all about credit cards and chargebacks in the thread awhile back - I’m just not sure if you could do one if you took the voucher but if they go under then maybe you could - because you would not be receiving what you paid for in the first place. But I’m no expert


----------



## Bearval

WDWEPCOT said:


> I really don’t know - I believe someone posted all about credit cards and chargebacks in the thread awhile back - I’m just not sure if you could do one if you took the voucher but if they go under then maybe you could - because you would not be receiving what you paid for in the first place. But I’m no expert


I actually just googled it and that is what happened when Thomas Cook travel agency went bankrupt.   People who paid for travel with credit cards were reimbursed if the disputed the charges.


----------



## DisneyBB

I really hope David doesn’t go out of business.  I have two families renting from me through David.  Originally they were going August and Sept but I asked them through David if they would like to change.  They are now going in January.   I will try and help them if David’s does go under.  But my experience with him has been to opposite to others.  He has been quick to respond and happy to work with me my renters.


----------



## jennf

I've been waiting a long time to post this as I was waiting on the final outcome.....

We had a split stay booked in March right at the beginning of the closure... I contacted Davids right away and David's agreed to refund me the first part of the trip  (when he was still refunding if an owner refunded the $ back to him). 

As we all know, issuing refunds to renters didn't last long and shortly after I received the first refund,  I received an email that he couldn't refund the other portion of the split stay because they had not been able to reach/hear back from the second owner (I don't know if I believe that after reading through this entire thread from both owners & renters ). 

At that point he offered the infamous voucher with all the new stipulations.  Because of this helpful thread I decided not to respond to the voucher email and instead I put through a chargeback with Chase back in May.  

Today, I just received a response back from Chase that we won. So glad that issue is resolved and in our favor.... 

The silver lining is that after this ordeal, we just had our offer accepted on our first resale contract so that in the future we have control of our own points if something like this happens again.  

Thanks to everyone that contributed to the thread !!!  I hope that others that went the chargeback route have the same outcome as we did and that for those that are using the voucher that everything works out for you as well.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Wonderful News so happy for you! 
Welcome Home Neighbor on your DVC purchase !


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

Bearval said:


> If he goes bankrup can the people who took the vouchers still file a chargeback then?  A few years ago I had a successful chargeback against a bankrup company,  my understanding is the credit card company took the hit.


Yes, this is normal.  For many reasons the liability chain goes all the through the credit card processing chain:
First the actual merchant is liable.  
If they are bankrupt, out of business, etc. then the bank that they process the credit cards with is liable (An example of who this would be would be a company like PayPal, Venmo, etc...but for companies, not individual people)
Then the bank that issues your credit card is liable.

This is something that's actually baked in to US law for actual CREDIT cards, but Visa/Mastercard have both decided to extend those same protections to debit cards and visa/mastercard gift cards also.


----------



## CarolynFH

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> Yes, this is normal.  For many reasons the liability chain goes all the through the credit card processing chain:
> First the actual merchant is liable.
> If they are bankrupt, out of business, etc. then the bank that they process the credit cards with is liable (An example of who this would be would be a company like PayPal, Venmo, etc...but for companies, not individual people)
> Then the bank that issues your credit card is liable.
> 
> This is something that's actually baked in to US law for actual CREDIT cards, but Visa/Mastercard have both decided to extend those same protections to debit cards and visa/mastercard gift cards also.


But would the deadline to file a claim apply if the person accepts a voucher for a rental in 2020 (in lieu of a chargeback at that time) and then can't use it because the merchant goes bankrupt in 2021? In other words, are David's customers who have accepted vouchers now SOL if he goes bankrupt before they can use their vouchers?


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

CarolynFH said:


> But would the deadline to file a claim apply if the person accepts a voucher for a rental in 2020 (in lieu of a chargeback at that time) and then can't use it because the merchant goes bankrupt in 2021? In other words, are David's customers who have accepted vouchers now SOL if he goes bankrupt before they can use their vouchers?


I am using this as my guide, and it follows my understanding:  https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-time-limit/
It depends on the policies of your bank, Visa, MasterCard, Etc. 

To quote the limits for Visa for "Services Not Provided or Goods Not Received" disputes: 


> Under this reason code, if the delivery of goods or services can reasonably be expected _after_ the actual transaction date--buying concert tickets a month before the event date, for example--chargeback time limits are calculated based on multiple criteria.  First, the issuing bank must wait 15 calendar days before initiating a dispute. This time period starts on either
> 
> The transaction date, if the date the expected goods/service delivery date was unspecified
> The date the Cardholder returned or attempted to return the merchandise (if the merchandise was returned due to late delivery)
> Additionally, the dispute must be processed either
> 
> 
> *Within 120 days of the last date the cardholder expects to receive the goods or services, not to exceed 540 calendar days from transaction; or*
> *Within 120 days of the date the cardholder was informed that the goods/services would not be provided, not to exceed 540 calendar days from transaction*



Be sure to expand the quote to read the entire thing.  I highlighted the relevant sections.  Mastercard has similar exceptions to their time limits as well.  Basically, the clock doesn't start ticking on Chargebacks for things like travel, hotels, concert tickets, etc. until you were to have expected to receive the goods/services up to a TOTAL maximum of 540 days.  In the case of David's, that would basically be 120 days from the date of check in, up to about 1.5 years from the date you initially paid.  Or 120 days from the date David's informed you that you wouldn't be able to check in, up to about 1.5 years from the date you initially paid.

You would be able to file your charge back up to 120 days after your latest anticipated delivery (check-in) date.  So 120 days after your original check in date, or 120 days after your NEW check-in date if you rescheduled with a voucher.  Again, up to a TOTAL maximum of 540 days (about 1.5 years).

The vouchers anticipated life span is 2 years or 3 years now?  Obviously it's value from David's is anticipated to be valid WELL beyond the 1.5 years from the date the transaction hit your card that Visa/MasterCard protect you with Chargebacks.  So it is very much possible that you would be left with a worthless voucher and no way to file a chargeback If David's goes bankrupt and you haven't checked in to the DVC room within 540 days of the charge hitting your card.

This is why my recommendation is:  Don't accept the voucher.  File the charge back and get your cash.  It will always be good to buy a reservation later without any expiration date and from ANY vendor selling reservations...including Time Share Store, David's, another owner direct, or even Disney themselves...I anticipate there to be some REALLY good deals available direct from Disney to get folks to come back.  Possibly even less expensive than the current going rental rates.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

LOL.  The Deals from Disney have started!  I just found out about Disney's Passholder 40% off for most DVC villas.  So I did some comparison shopping:

SSR 
Studio standard, direct from Disney is $1809.71 (taxes included).  Cost from David's is $1,368
1 bedroom standard, direct from Disney for $2,469.21 (taxes included).  Cost from David's is $2,698
2 bedroom standard is $3,583.61 direct or $3,572 from David's.

AKV
1 Bedroom standard view is $3,021.36 direct or $2,660 from David's.

BCV
Studio is $2,382.12 direct or $1,748 from David's.  
2 bedroom direct is $4,860.01 or $4,446 from David's


So the cost benefit of going with David's is DEFINITELY diminished.  It seems that David's still has better prices on Studios, but if you need something bigger, you can get good deals on 1BR or 2BR direct from Disney and not pay that much more than David's...or even get a better deal direct from Disney.  Keep in mind that you will have all of Disney's baked in flexibility and protection of being able to cancel, as well as full daily house keeping!


----------



## Best Aunt

PP has an interesting point about comparing what Disney is charging versus what David’s is charging.  But Disney isn’t doing full daily housekeeping these days:

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/guest-services/housekeeping-service/


----------



## Sandisw

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> LOL.  The Deals from Disney have started!  I just found out about Disney's Passholder 40% off for most DVC villas.  So I did some comparison shopping:
> 
> SSR
> Studio standard, direct from Disney is $1809.71 (taxes included).  Cost from David's is $1,368
> 1 bedroom standard, direct from Disney for $2,469.21 (taxes included).  Cost from David's is $2,698
> 2 bedroom standard is $3,583.61 direct or $3,572 from David's.
> 
> AKV
> 1 Bedroom standard view is $3,021.36 direct or $2,660 from David's.
> 
> BCV
> Studio is $2,382.12 direct or $1,748 from David's.
> 2 bedroom direct is $4,860.01 or $4,446 from David's
> 
> 
> So the cost benefit of going with David's is DEFINITELY diminished.  It seems that David's still has better prices on Studios, but if you need something bigger, you can get good deals on 1BR or 2BR direct from Disney and not pay that much more than David's...or even get a better deal direct from Disney.  Keep in mind that you will have all of Disney's baked in flexibility and protection of being able to cancel, as well as full daily house keeping!



It is these types of discounts that will impact the rental market because for such a small savings...sometimes not even...it really makes the risk and lack of flexibility of renting less attractive.

Prices will need to come down I think to compete.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> It is these types of discounts that will impact the rental market because for such a small savings...sometimes not even...it really makes the risk and lack of flexibility of renting less attractive.
> 
> Prices will need to come down I think to compete.


Well i don't think his ad " save thousands " on your Disney vacation is correct now.


----------



## Upatnoon

Disney can move quickly to reduce rates to spur demand because they have far more information about what they need to do to fill rooms.

Eventually, the DVC rental market will catch up. It's more complicated for David's because he has to convince the people whose points he is renting to take less money.


----------



## Bearval

Upatnoon said:


> Disney can move quickly to reduce rates to spur demand because they have far more information about what they need to do to fill rooms.
> 
> Eventually, the DVC rental market will catch up. It's more complicated for David's because he has to convince the people whose points he is renting to take less money.


Would that happen to be the same people who fulfilled their portion of the contract but never received all of the funds promised?


----------



## CraigInPA

Upatnoon said:


> Disney can move quickly to reduce rates to spur demand because they have far more information about what they need to do to fill rooms.
> 
> Eventually, the DVC rental market will catch up. It's more complicated for David's because he has to convince the people whose points he is renting to take less money.



And that is the problem of the buyer/broker model David employs. He feels he deserves a 25% gross margin for acting as matchmaker and clearing house for the transaction. Whenever Disney heavily discounts, the savings he is offering gets smaller. In order to keep advertising those huge savings, he needs to shave his margin, get the owner to accept less, or both.  If you eliminate him entirely from the equation, the savings magically re-appear with a swish of Tinkerbell's wand. So, the future of David's and other companies that use this model is to somehow come up with a competitive offering to Disney's discounting, whether it be additional perks, or heavy discounting. But, IMO, David's largest immediate and future competition is owners who no longer want to work with him (or any other broker), and choose to rent their points out directly.


----------



## Upatnoon

CraigInPA said:


> And that is the problem of the buyer/broker model David employs. He feels he deserves a 25% gross margin for acting as matchmaker and clearing house for the transaction. Whenever Disney heavily discounts, the savings he is offering gets smaller. In order to keep advertising those huge savings, he needs to shave his margin, get the owner to accept less, or both.  If you eliminate him entirely from the equation, the savings magically re-appear with a swish of Tinkerbell's wand. So, the future of David's and other companies that use this model is to somehow come up with a competitive offering to Disney's discounting, whether it be additional perks, or heavy discounting. But, IMO, David's largest immediate and future competition is owners who no longer want to work with him (or any other broker), and choose to rent their points out directly.


There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.

This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.


----------



## dsnymnkyuncle

Upatnoon said:


> There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.
> 
> This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.


Agreed, this does leave the issue of owners being liability for similar accommodations that I think was in the new contract.


----------



## JayDubs

I had a split stay booked in May through David’s. I disputed the charges with Capital One and just received confirmation (almost exactly 90 days from originally filing the disputes) that I had been successful in my chargeback and my case is now closed.  

Including deposits, I had 4 charges on two separate Capital One credit cards.  I was required to submit additional information (contracts and email correspondence). I was told in May that it would take up to 90 days and that’s almost exactly how long it took.

I’m so relieved I have this behind me and I’m wishing good luck to all of you still in the middle of the drama!


----------



## CarolMN

CraigInPA said:


> And that is the problem of the buyer/broker model David employs. He feels he deserves a 25% gross margin for acting as matchmaker and clearing house for the transaction. Whenever Disney heavily discounts, the savings he is offering gets smaller. In order to keep advertising those huge savings, he needs to shave his margin, get the owner to accept less, or both.  If you eliminate him entirely from the equation, the savings magically re-appear with a swish of Tinkerbell's wand. So, the future of David's and other companies that use this model is to somehow come up with a competitive offering to Disney's discounting, whether it be additional perks, or heavy discounting. But, IMO, David's largest immediate and future competition is owners who no longer want to work with him (or any other broker), and choose to rent their points out directly.


While the Disboards has seen a definite uptick in usage, we mods have also had to issue a very large number of rejections  - entirely due to people who do not read  (or maybe do not understand) the rules before posting.  That;s true for even long-term DIS DVC forum posters.    Current rules have been in place since early 2011.

There's something to be said for working with someone who knows what he/she is doing  - on both sides of the transaction.


----------



## Dean Marino

CarolMN said:


> While the Disboards has seen a definite uptick in usage, we mods have also had to issue a very large number of rejections  - entirely due to people who do not read  (or maybe do not understand) the rules before posting.  That;s true for even long-term DIS DVC forum posters.    Current rules have been in place since early 2011.
> 
> There's something to be said for working with someone who knows what he/she is doing  - on both sides of the transaction.


Well, there is yet another reason to be Leary of acting as an intermediate party, in DVC Rentals....

Lawsuits. Hundreds and hundreds of them. Were it me? I would strongly consider getting as far away from this business, as possible.  But I'm not a mod.... just a DVC owner.

Ultimately - we donated the 2019 use year points that DVC intended to steal from us, to a lovely family able to DRIVE to WDW. "Rent your points" just got way too ugly - even with agencies. And I would suggest that others consider this approach.

One could "Rent", and face Litigation.  Or?  One could just offer those robbed points, FREE, to a wonderful family that can GET to WDW, and back HOME, in 2020 .


----------



## New Mouse

Upatnoon said:


> There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.
> 
> This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.



Not after this debacle.   I used to be in that crowd, but never again.


----------



## Bearval

New Mouse said:


> Not after this debacle.   I used to be in that crowd, but never again.


What you may see are owners that constantly have too many points ever year downsize what they own or try and rent the points themselves. Also people who have been renters every year or every other year buy some resale contracts.  I really can' t see an owner willing to rent points thru an intermediary for very little above MFs especially with that new contract.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

Upatnoon said:


> There will always be owners who don't want to do any work and just want to give their points to someone to rent. Likewise, there will always people who want to rent points to save money, but fear dealing with an individual owner or don't want to do the work to find someone to rent from.
> 
> This leaves the door open for brokers if they can keep the price attractive enough, and market forces will eventually do that.





New Mouse said:


> Not after this debacle.   I used to be in that crowd, but never again.



A lot of that is going to depend on how the market adjusts.  Obviously, renters and owners are going to demand more protection on both sides.  This is exactly where a broker can come in and make some good money.  It is very likely going to require a travel insurance element of some sort in order to be able to properly protect everyone.

If they were to add an insurance element to broker rentals for DVC then that is going to make costs go up for renters, the amounts paid to owners go down, the amount of money that brokers get to keep go down, or some combination of all 3.  TBH, there is likely some room for David's to reduce his take and pay an insurance company to cover all parties involved in case things go sideways.  

Owners get $15.50 per point, while David's collects $20.00 per point.  That's $4.50 gross profit for David's.  22.5%.  On a single week-long reservation for a BLT studio, that's a gross profit of $525!!  On top of that, he get's to keep 30% of the money he would normally pay to an owner in an interest bearing account and earn interest on the remaining $500+ for probably an average of 6-7 months.  David's very likely could pay $115 (5%) per reservation to an insurance company, still make a TON of money and give everyone involved FULL protection of their funds.


----------



## starry_solo

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> A lot of that is going to depend on how the market adjusts.  Obviously, renters and owners are going to demand more protection on both sides.  This is exactly where a broker can come in and make some good money.  It is very likely going to require a travel insurance element of some sort in order to be able to properly protect everyone.
> 
> If they were to add an insurance element to broker rentals for DVC then that is going to make costs go up for renters, the amounts paid to owners go down, the amount of money that brokers get to keep go down, or some combination of all 3.  TBH, there is likely some room for David's to reduce his take and pay an insurance company to cover all parties involved in case things go sideways.
> 
> Owners get $15.50 per point, while David's collects $20.00 per point.  That's $4.50 gross profit for David's.  22.5%.  On a single week-long reservation for a BLT studio, that's a gross profit of $525!!  On top of that, he get's to keep 30% of the money he would normally pay to an owner in an interest bearing account and earn interest on the remaining $500+ for probably an average of 6-7 months.  David's very likely could pay $115 (5%) per reservation to an insurance company, still make a TON of money and give everyone involved FULL protection of their funds.



I doubt an insurance company would insure that type of transaction.


----------



## Debbie Jean

starry_solo said:


> I doubt an insurance company would insure that type of transaction.



I agree. People who bought “cancel for any reason” insurance have posted they have not been covered for pandemic losses. Certainly moving forward, this will be a specified exclusion. 

Many people got burned and frankly, some of the DIS threads which are there for all to read will, I expect, dissuade renters or at the very least induce them to look for much larger point discounts. They may find the pricing with incentives Disney offers to be much more reliable and worth what I suspect will be not that much more than on the rental market.


----------



## Deb & Bill

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> A lot of that is going to depend on how the market adjusts.  Obviously, renters and owners are going to demand more protection on both sides.  This is exactly where a broker can come in and make some good money.  It is very likely going to require a travel insurance element of some sort in order to be able to properly protect everyone.
> 
> If they were to add an insurance element to broker rentals for DVC then that is going to make costs go up for renters, the amounts paid to owners go down, the amount of money that brokers get to keep go down, or some combination of all 3.  TBH, there is likely some room for David's to reduce his take and pay an insurance company to cover all parties involved in case things go sideways.
> 
> Owners get $15.50 per point, while David's collects $20.00 per point.  That's $4.50 gross profit for David's.  22.5%.  On a single week-long reservation for a BLT studio, that's a gross profit of $525!!  On top of that, he get's to keep 30% of the money he would normally pay to an owner in an interest bearing account and earn interest on the remaining $500+ for probably an average of 6-7 months.  David's very likely could pay $115 (5%) per reservation to an insurance company, still make a TON of money and give everyone involved FULL protection of their funds.


With Disney offering direct booking discounts,  $20 a point might be hard to get.


----------



## suebeelin

Deb & Bill said:


> With Disney offering direct booking discounts,  $20 a point might be hard to get.



Is DIsney even taking new reservations right now?


----------



## starry_solo

suebeelin said:


> Is DIsney even taking new reservations right now?



For 2021, yes.


----------



## Sandisw

starry_solo said:


> For 2021, yes.



They are for 2020 as well.  You just can’t book at resorts not yet open.


----------



## RachStu

We've just had a trip that I booked for David's cancelled.  It's a small booking (less than 150 points) and the renter is based in South Korea so couldn't have travelled anyway at present.  I am assuming that despite the terms of the contract David's is going to ask whether i'm willing to refund the 70% that i've been paid.  I've now missed my 31 July banking window for these points although I'm hoping MS will bank them for me given the resort is closed.


----------



## Dean Marino

RachStu said:


> We've just had a trip that I booked for David's cancelled.  It's a small booking (less than 150 points) and the renter is based in South Korea so couldn't have travelled anyway at present.  I am assuming that despite the terms of the contract David's is going to ask whether i'm willing to refund the 70% that i've been paid.  I've now missed my 31 July banking window for these points although I'm hoping MS will bank them for me given the resort is closed.


Wellllll - it's sort of stuff like this that prompted Sandy & I to avoid renting, and just DONATE points to a wonderful family within WDW driving distance.  In normal times?  Renting is fine.  Right now?  We just did not think it would be good for us (Renters), or others (Recipients) .


----------



## RachStu

Dean Marino said:


> Wellllll - it's sort of stuff like this that prompted Sandy & I to avoid renting, and just DONATE points to a wonderful family within WDW driving distance.  In normal times?  Renting is fine.  Right now?  We just did not think it would be good for us (Renters), or others (Recipients) .



All of my rentals were entered into pre-COVID back in Jan / Feb this year.  There are no winners  in the present circumstances.


----------



## starry_solo

RachStu said:


> We've just had a trip that I booked for David's cancelled.  It's a small booking (less than 150 points) and the renter is based in South Korea so couldn't have travelled anyway at present.  I am assuming that despite the terms of the contract David's is going to ask whether i'm willing to refund the 70% that i've been paid.  I've now missed my 31 July banking window for these points although I'm hoping MS will bank them for me given the resort is closed.



Is it Aulani?  I would think DVC would be willing to make special accommodations for Aulani and VGC, given that those two resorts are still closed.


----------



## New Mouse

starry_solo said:


> Is it Aulani?  I would think DVC would be willing to make special accommodations for Aulani and VGC, given that those two resorts are still closed.



Has anyone had updates on these situations? Im coming up on a situation with dec use year in October at VGC and havent a clue what to expect from DVC.


----------



## RachStu

starry_solo said:


> Is it Aulani?  I would think DVC would be willing to make special accommodations for Aulani and VGC, given that those two resorts are still closed.



Yes, Aulani for an August stay with a Dec UY. The current published policy only extends points for a year due to closure up to an October UY. I’ve emailed MS.


----------



## jamnich314

Forgive me if I missed it after skimming the last few months of posts but, as a renter through David's, I have a reservation in mid-September that we are NOT using. They are trying to re-rent but I'm not optimistic. At this point I'm (mostly) at peace with losing the money but what course of action should we take? Do we simply not show up and Disney forfeits our reservation? If we cancel does that help the owner out in any way?


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

jamnich314 said:


> Forgive me if I missed it after skimming the last few months of posts but, as a renter through David's, I have a reservation in mid-September that we are NOT using. They are trying to re-rent but I'm not optimistic. At this point I'm (mostly) at peace with losing the money but what course of action should we take? Do we simply not show up and Disney forfeits our reservation? If we cancel does that help the owner out in any way?


If you're 100% certain that you aren't going, then yes it can probably help the owner out.  They can get the points back by cancelling with Disney and then either use them themselves or find another renter.  If that's the course of action you wish to take, you should do that soon as there is a 30 day window with which the owner can cancel.


----------



## Debbie Jean

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> If you're 100% certain that you aren't going, then yes it can probably help the owner out.  They can get the points back by cancelling with Disney and then either use them themselves or find another renter.  If that's the course of action you wish to take, you should do that soon as there is a 30 day window with which the owner can cancel.


 In which case the owner should return the money already received. No reason they should be enriched by your misfortune.  

And yes, I realize the money will not go to the renter but to David’s. Still the money should be returned


----------



## CraigInPA

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> If you're 100% certain that you aren't going, then yes it can probably help the owner out.  They can get the points back by cancelling with Disney and then either use them themselves or find another renter.  If that's the course of action you wish to take, you should do that soon as there is a 30 day window with which the owner can cancel.



Although, if the owner cancels or changes the reservation, the owner becomes liable for a refund to David's. And, depending upon the use year and expiration of the points, it may be impossible to use those points. So, don't expect an owner to cancel the reservation.


----------



## RachStu

New Mouse said:


> Has anyone had updates on these situations? Im coming up on a situation with dec use year in October at VGC and havent a clue what to expect from DVC.



I spoke to a cast member on chat and they said they are unable to make an exception and bank my points from the cancelled (by Disney) Aulani trip.  I should have banked 11 days ago.  If they had cancelled the trip 8 days earlier than they did then I would have been able to bank the points myself.  Am currently on hold to speak to someone in member services about it.  This should have been capable of being resolved by the person on chat.


----------



## jamnich314

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> If you're 100% certain that you aren't going, then yes it can probably help the owner out.  They can get the points back by cancelling with Disney and then either use them themselves or find another renter.  If that's the course of action you wish to take, you should do that soon as there is a 30 day window with which the owner can cancel.



I emailed them asking about it. They said due to complexity of banking and borrowing points that cancellations are not permitted per their all sales final policy.


----------



## RachStu

jamnich314 said:


> I emailed them asking about it. They said due to complexity of banking and borrowing points that cancellations are not permitted per their all sales final policy.



Do you have the owner's email address? You could contact them directly and let them know they can cancel.  If my renters did this I'd cancel the reservation and donate the points to charity.


----------



## jamnich314

RachStu said:


> Do you have the owner's email address? You could contact them directly and let them know they can cancel.  If my renters did this I'd cancel the reservation and donate the points to charity.



Nope. Only first and last names. They kept the two parties very separated.


----------



## Bearval

RachStu said:


> Do you have the owner's email address? You could contact them directly and let them know they can cancel.  If my renters did this I'd cancel the reservation and donate the points to charity.


But if the owner cancels they are required to return the money they have already received.


----------



## RachStu

Bearval said:


> But if the owner cancels they are required to return the money they have already received.



I doubt David's has the time or resource to commence legal proceedings, particularly against international owners.


----------



## RachStu

jamnich314 said:


> Nope. Only first and last names. They kept the two parties very separated.



As an owner I have my renter's email address and other details.  I haven't contacted anyone direct though.  I know neither of my renters wish to travel and I've agreed to change names if David's can find a new renter.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

RachStu said:


> I doubt David's has the time or resource to commence legal proceedings, particularly against international owners.


Or even the time/resources necessary to even check if a reservation is even still valid on check in day.  My guess is that David's only finds out about these in the case that a renter actually shows up and finds they don't have a reservation.  But in these cases, the renter ISN'T showing up.


----------



## RachStu

YourEveryDayAdam said:


> Or even the time/resources necessary to even check if a reservation is even still valid on check in day.  My guess is that David's only finds out about these in the case that a renter actually shows up and finds they don't have a reservation.  But in these cases, the renter ISN'T showing up.



I wouldn't like to take the risk.  What if they did show up?!


----------



## Sandisw

Debbie Jean said:


> In which case the owner should return the money already received. No reason they should be enriched by your misfortune.
> 
> And yes, I realize the money will not go to the renter but to David’s. Still the money should be returned



Most likely. the owner will simply allow the points to be lost, collect the 30% owed to them an walk away,

No real Reason for an owner to lose when things are open. Now, one option that could be offered is foe the owner to keep the points  but allow David’s to give the renter the owners 30% still owed...with his commission, the renter would still end up with about 50% of their cost in a voucher.

There are ways to make it a win/win for all.


----------



## Sandisw

RachStu said:


> Do you have the owner's email address? You could contact them directly and let them know they can cancel.  If my renters did this I'd cancel the reservation and donate the points to charity.



The only problem with this is that if the owner cancels, then the renter can request a full refund, even if they agree to it via the owner as a side deal,

IMO, it’d be risky to do as an owner,


----------



## TCRAIG

Sandisw said:


> The only problem with this is that if the owner cancels, then the renter can request a full refund, even if they agree to it via the owner as a side deal,
> 
> IMO, it’d be risky to do as an owner,


I agree, as the owner, I would never cancel a rental I had made for a client thru David’s without written convent from David’s.


----------



## MaxsDad

We had a reservation through David's for October that we had asked about a month ago to cancel. Received an email today stating that they had found a new renter, which surprised me considering how much was available. We decided to take the credit because 3 years seems like a lot of time and since this was our first adult only trip in 11 years we plan on rebooking when we can.  I am sure this has already been mentioned in the thread but I thought this was an interesting clause in the new terms for the credit:

"In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted. "

In hindsight I wish I had just taken the refund they offered, we only would have been out $300 which was a lot easier to swallow than losing the original cost of the trip.
Either way, I don't think I will be renting from them again, and as an owner I definitely won't go through them if I ever have points to rent (although I never seem to have any points which is why I had to rent for this trip )


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

MaxsDad said:


> I am sure this has already been mentioned in the thread but I thought this was an interesting clause in the new terms for the credit:
> 
> "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted. "



That clause is perhaps the biggest source of consternation for those accepting vouchers.  Once you redeem them, you waive any further changes, even if resorts were to close again.


----------



## MaxsDad

Grumpy by Birth said:


> That clause is perhaps the biggest source of consternation for those accepting vouchers.  Once you redeem them, you waive any further changes, even if resorts were to close again.


Yeah, it is definitely pretty sketchy and one of the reasons, I won't go this route again. Just hope we will be able to get a trip in using the credit.


----------



## starry_solo

MaxsDad said:


> We had a reservation through David's for October that we had asked about a month ago to cancel. Received an email today stating that they had found a new renter, which surprised me considering how much was available. We decided to take the credit because 3 years seems like a lot of time and since this was our first adult only trip in 11 years we plan on rebooking when we can.  I am sure this has already been mentioned in the thread but I thought this was an interesting clause in the new terms for the credit:
> 
> "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted. "
> 
> In hindsight I wish I had just taken the refund they offered, we only would have been out $300 which was a lot easier to swallow than losing the original cost of the trip.
> Either way, I don't think I will be renting from them again, and as an owner I definitely won't go through them if I ever have points to rent (although I never seem to have any points which is why I had to rent for this trip )



send them an email saying you want the refund and you’ve changed your mind about the voucher. Don’t you have to sign a new contract to accept the new terms ?


----------



## dnbdisney

I just wanted to give anyone out there hoping for a charge back, my fantastic news I just saw on my CHASE account!  
They found in my favor against David's in my dispute over no refunds!
I provided my information about the situation and after David's tried to shoot me down I sent more information including the fact that if we cancelled or defaulted there was no refund.  I highlighted that section as well as the section that talked about if no room available I would receive a refund.
They finalized the dispute overnight and made the credit permanent.
I started the dispute on May 23rd, so it took over 11 weeks but I am just very happy with Chase's decision.


----------



## dnbdisney

I do want to thank Disboards and every member on here because until I read about possible charge backs I hadn't even thought about going that route.


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

CarolMN said:


> There's something to be said for working with someone who knows what he/she is doing - on both sides of the transaction.


This is actually what is most disturbing to me about how David’s is handling this whole situation.

*They do not understand how the modification process actually works*... and I found this out through a series of emails between myself and them. _The whole thing is just sad because so many people are hurt & upset by this, and I think they should’ve done their homework before rolling out their new policy. _

Right now, they say they are able to give you a partial refund/total credit IF they can find a new renter for the owner... so, I assumed they meant a new renter for those points (as that is what would make the most sense & the most people happy)... but, no. They actually mean they must find a new renter for your exact reservation... which is why their site is _flooded with dedicated reservations for rent._ They still have people lined up with new reservation requests which should be matched with the ded-res owners... not waiting for new owners. 

However, David’s is under the serious misunderstanding that the owner would be in violation of the contract if they modify the booking for the current renter to a time more suitable for their travel, or to a new renter with a different request... because they fundamentally do not understand how modifications work and believe the owner must first cancel a reservation & then separately rebook (in a new transaction). Furthermore, because of that misguided theory, they also mistakenly believe that the owner would need to have enough points on hand for two separate bookings, so that they could have a new booking in place before legally being able to cancel the first booking. _Zero of that is true!_

I respectfully explained all of this to them and although they were very skeptical at first, they finally saw they may not have properly understood modifications... but said they are still going to stick with their flawed model. It’s incredibly unfortunate for all involved.


----------



## Sandisw

HappyDisneyWife said:


> This is actually what is most disturbing to me about how David’s is handling this whole situation.
> 
> *They do not understand how the modification process actually works*... and I found this out through a series of emails between myself and them. _The whole thing is just sad because so many people are hurt & upset by this, and I think they should’ve done their homework before rolling out their new policy. _
> 
> Right now, they say they are able to give you a partial refund/total credit IF they can find a new renter for the owner... so, I assumed they meant a new renter for those points (as that is what would make the most sense & the most people happy)... but, no. They actually mean they must find a new renter for your exact reservation... which is why their site is _flooded with dedicated reservations for rent._ They still have people lined up with new reservation requests which should be matched with the ded-res owners... not waiting for new owners.
> 
> However, David’s is under the serious misunderstanding that the owner would be in violation of the contract if they modify the booking for the current renter to a time more suitable for their travel, or to a new renter with a different request... because they fundamentally do not understand how modifications work and believe the owner must first cancel a reservation & then separately rebook (in a new transaction). Furthermore, because of that misguided theory, they also mistakenly believe that the owner would need to have enough points on hand for two separate bookings, so that they could have a new booking in place before legally being able to cancel the first booking. _Zero of that is true!_
> 
> I respectfully explained all of this to them and although they were very skeptical at first, they finally saw they may not have properly understood modifications... but said they are still going to stick with their flawed model. It’s incredibly unfortunate for all involved.



Here is the thing though...from an owners stand point, it is a breach of the contract by Davids to ask or expect  the owner to make changes.  David’s can not force an owner to book something for someone else...the contract is between them and the original renter. 

When we signed, it was to book one trip and that was it.  Even asking the owner to change names is technically not something we need to do,

In addition, if the dates are changed, the owner is now waiting for the rest of their money.

Now, an owner can modify and leave lead guest for new dates, but again, that is asking an owner to change things when really, there  is no reason why when resorts are open.

While I have been very  critical of David’s, in this case, the fact that he even asked owners if they would be willing to change names for renters uncomfortable or not able to go was a pretty nice gesture,

David’s is doing what he is doing because he is trying to balance renters and owners and if he started asking all those owners to book a new renter it would severely hurt him in the long run.


----------



## HappyDisneyWife

Sandisw said:


> Here is the thing though...from an owners stand point, it is a breach of the contract by Davids to ask or expect the owner to make changes. David’s can not force an owner to book something for someone else...the contract is between them and the original renter.


I am also an owner currently renting through David’s. I understand what you’re saying, but if _both sides agree_ to a change to the original contract (which is they’re currently doing)- _there is no breach_. I am definitely not suggesting David’s force owners to change if they don’t want to. The contract is there to protect them. But I, as an owner, want to be able to actually help the renter in question- not merely change lead guest names (like the current model does). 


Sandisw said:


> Now, an owner can modify and leave lead guest for new dates, but again, that is asking an owner to change things when really, there is no reason why when resorts are open.


Renters are from everywhere- including different countries. It’s not as simple as the “resorts are open.” Plus people with highly compromised immune systems are put in a real bind. It’s a unique situation and nothing is cut and dry. (On both sides of the fence! Owners & renters!!)


Sandisw said:


> David’s is doing what he is doing because he is trying to balance renters and owners and if he started asking all those owners to book a new renter it would severely hurt him in the long run.


I disagree. Asking never hurts. He might find a lot of willing owners (like myself!) who are willing to go in and do a modification. Either way, David’s does all the work finding the best fit for me. 


Sandisw said:


> While I have been very critical of David’s, in this case, the fact that he even asked owners if they would be willing to change names for renters uncomfortable or not able to go was a pretty nice gesture,


I completely agree. He could’ve stood by his 100% no cancellation policy, if he really wanted to. I truly believe he is trying to help- I just think he could’ve done better (since a flawed understanding was behind the new policy).


----------



## Sandisw

HappyDisneyWife said:


> I am also an owner currently renting through David’s. I understand what you’re saying, but if _both sides agree_ to a change to the original contract (which is they’re currently doing)- _there is no breach_. I am definitely not suggesting David’s force owners to change if they don’t want to. The contract is there to protect them. But I, as an owner, want to be able to actually help the renter in question- not merely change lead guest names (like the current model does).
> 
> Renters are from everywhere- including different countries. It’s not as simple as the “resorts are open.” Plus people with highly compromised immune systems are put in a real bind. It’s a unique situation and nothing is cut and dry. (On both sides of the fence! Owners & renters!!)
> 
> I disagree. Asking never hurts. He might find a lot of willing owners (like myself!) who are willing to go in and do a modification. Either way, David’s does all the work finding the best fit for me.
> 
> I completely agree. He could’ve stood by his 100% no cancellation policy, if he really wanted to. I truly believe he is trying to help- I just think he could’ve done better (since a flawed understanding was behind the new policy).



For you, its no big deal.  For me, as an owner, it would have been..and I would venture to guess I am not the only one.

My renters must be going as they check in in 10 days and I have not been contacted.

Sorry, but I disagree that this situation should no longer fall under the normal terms of non refundable when resorts are open. There are renters all the time that I bet have had issues like death or illness that have been stuck.

But, from his standpoint, giving the number of renters that want out, I can see why it made sense to take the one Size fits all approach now because I can imagine he would get a lot of flack from renters since anything beside the confirmed reservation being rented is so owner dependent.

Of course, my rental days with his company are over and can’t wait for this one and only to be completed.


----------



## JasonV

Another successful chargeback to report; RBC Avion VISA.  Response from RBC was that “the merchant has accepted the dispute”.


----------



## SherylLC

oh-ohhh....David's emailed me this morning asking if I would change the guest's name on a reservation. There was no "we'll give you $2 per point for your troubles" so I replied they could send me the details and asked if the $2 per point compensation was still in place. I haven't heard back all day. For past reservation updates they emailed me with new guest's details as soon as I said yes.

I hope funds are not drying up. I hope I will still get my 30% at check in date


----------



## robinb

SherylLC said:


> oh-ohhh....David's emailed me this morning asking if I would change the guest's name on a reservation. There was no "we'll give you $2 per point for your troubles" so I replied they could send me the details and asked if the $2 per point compensation was still in place. I haven't heard back all day. For past reservation updates they emailed me with new guest's details as soon as I said yes.
> 
> I hope funds are not drying up. I hope I will still get my 30% at check in date


You want $2 per point extra for a simple phone call which will help out your previous renters?  Really?


----------



## AaronEuth

robinb said:


> You want $2 per point extra for a simple phone call which will help out your previous renters?  Really?




Calling DVC member services right now is not simple.   My last call (maybe 3 weeks ago) was approximately 3 hours of constant attempts and receiving a busy signal.  As in I called, got a busy signal, and immediately redialed, and got a busy signal.  Repeat literally hundreds of times.    Then once I did get connected it was maybe 80-90 minutes of hold.

That is half a day I am not at work, not able to play with my kid, watch a movie etc.


----------



## lawboy2001

robinb said:


> You want $2 per point extra for a simple phone call which will help out your previous renters?  Really?



First of all, the OP doesn't say that s/he wants 2$ before doing anything, but only inquired if it would be on the table.  But I am sure all all informed owners would expect this payment, because we are aware that that is what David's has offered in the very recent past.  So what!  The change will more that double the work the owner has to go through, because instead of just making an online booking, you have to call MS and that is a nightmare right now.


----------



## SherylLC

robinb said:


> You want $2 per point extra for a simple phone call which will help out your previous renters?  Really?


Well, I've done it three times already. The first two did really did take a good portion of the day. Waiting on hold, disconnected, busy signals, repeat-for over 4 hours each time. Fortunately, I have a job that allows me to be tied up on the phone without a problem. I don't imagine everyone's workplace can allow it.

Since you bring it up, I stated first in my reply, "Yes, send me the new guest's info." I then asked in a second paragraph if they were still offering the $2. I will do it no matter their answer but given it was offered regularly in the past I thought it worth the inquiry. Who doesn't want a couple hundred bucks?

I think you may be suggesting I reside in a lower moral rung that you do...pretty judgmental and really such a useless comment. My concern in posting is not getting the 30% balance and I am looking to encourage anyone experiencing this to post. This, I think is coming at some point, dependent on David's revenue.


----------



## cm8

SherylLC said:


> Well, I've done it three times already. The first two did really did take a good portion of the day. Waiting on hold, disconnected, busy signals, repeat-for over 4 hours each time. Fortunately, I have a job that allows me to be tied up on the phone without a problem. I don't imagine everyone's workplace can allow it.
> 
> Since you bring it up, I stated first in my reply, "Yes, send me the new guest's info." I then asked in a second paragraph if they were still offering the $2. I will do it no matter their answer but given it was offered regularly in the past I thought it worth the inquiry. Who doesn't want a couple hundred bucks?
> 
> I think you may be suggesting I reside in a lower moral rung that you do...pretty judgmental and really such a useless comment. My concern in posting is not getting the 30% balance and I am looking to encourage anyone experiencing this to post. This, I think is coming at some point, dependent on David's revenue.



My goodness! 3 times already?  I hope you get the extra cash, you certainly deserve it.


----------



## New Mouse

robinb said:


> You want $2 per point extra for a simple phone call which will help out your previous renters?  Really?



Yes, he wants the business.... he worked with to compensate him for rearranging a deal which he has no requirememt to do.


----------



## Sandisw

robinb said:


> You want $2 per point extra for a simple phone call which will help out your previous renters?  Really?



If it was me, I’d want it as well.  I am sorry, but it frustrates me that owners, now that resorts are open, are being made out to be  the bad guys for expecting the contract to be honored Or given some incentive to revise the terms.  

If David’s wants to give renters a chance to recoup by allowing the reservation to be rented to someone else, why should the only ones who get nothing out of the change be the owner?

Davids is keeping some of the funds from the renter for this option so it should be shared with the owner, YMMV.


----------



## RachStu

To my surpise, David's informed me today they had a new renter for a stay due to commence in 9 days. I was slightly dismayed to realise they did not try to obtain payment from the new renter until after I'd made the change.  I've had issues with David's not receiving payment before so if that happens in the current case after I've gone to the trouble of calling member services I'll be mightily p*ssed!


----------



## robinb

SherylLC said:


> Well, I've done it three times already. The first two did really did take a good portion of the day. Waiting on hold, disconnected, busy signals, repeat-for over 4 hours each time. Fortunately, I have a job that allows me to be tied up on the phone without a problem. I don't imagine everyone's workplace can allow it.
> 
> Since you bring it up, I stated first in my reply, "Yes, send me the new guest's info." I then asked in a second paragraph if they were still offering the $2. I will do it no matter their answer but given it was offered regularly in the past I thought it worth the inquiry. Who doesn't want a couple hundred bucks?
> 
> I think you may be suggesting I reside in a lower moral rung that you do...pretty judgmental and really such a useless comment. My concern in posting is not getting the 30% balance and I am looking to encourage anyone experiencing this to post. This, I think is coming at some point, dependent on David's revenue.


Yes, if you had held out for additional compensation I would indeed have judged you to reside on a lower moral rung.

This is a difficult time for everyone.  DVC members, renters and David's business.  Renters are _screwed_. They are stuck with reservations they cannot use and in contracts that do not allow for cancellations. The BEST they can do is take a loss and re-rent their reservations. The LEAST we can do is help them without demanding more money. As for your 30% balance, do you think there is a better or worse chance that it will be there is every owner bleeds David's dry with change fees?



Sandisw said:


> If it was me, I’d want it as well.  I am sorry, but it frustrates me that owners, now that resorts are open, are being made out to be  the bad guys for expecting the contract to be honored Or given some incentive to revise the terms.
> 
> If David’s wants to give renters a chance to recoup by allowing the reservation to be rented to someone else, why should the only ones who get nothing out of the change be the owner?
> 
> Davids is keeping some of the funds from the renter for this option so it should be shared with the owner, YMMV.


I am frustrated that DVC members act like everything is like it used to be when they could rent their points through David's and then wash their hands of their renters.  I know that was an advantage of David's that you didn't have to worry or think about your renters.  I swear that some of this is about punishing David's, but the renters are real people who are in a bind.  

I prefer to be kind to and look out for the renters rather than demanding more money to change a reservation, YYMV.


----------



## fancymouse

SherylLC said:


> oh-ohhh....David's emailed me this morning asking if I would change the guest's name on a reservation. There was no "we'll give you $2 per point for your troubles" so I replied they could send me the details and asked if the $2 per point compensation was still in place. I haven't heard back all day. For past reservation updates they emailed me with new guest's details as soon as I said yes.
> 
> I hope funds are not drying up. I hope I will still get my 30% at check in date


Is it possible this is just a regular name change at the renter’s request? The contract does say renters can request a name change up until 30 days out (IIRC). Maybe they decided to give their reservation to a friend etc? I thought the $2 per point deal was for rerenting the points and it sounds like they had to get permission from the owner in order to do that. If they never asked you, I don’t think they can re-rent them and that’s why they may not have offered the extra money.


----------



## SherylLC

robinb said:


> Yes, if you had held out for additional compensation I would indeed have judged you to reside on a lower moral rung.
> 
> This is a difficult time for everyone.  DVC members, renters and David's business.  Renters are _screwed_. They are stuck with reservations they cannot use and in contracts that do not allow for cancellations. The BEST they can do is take a loss and re-rent their reservations. The LEAST we can do is help them without demanding more money. As for your 30% balance, do you think there is a better or worse chance that it will be there is every owner bleeds David's dry with change fees?
> 
> 
> I am frustrated that DVC members act like everything is like it used to be when they could rent their points through David's and then wash their hands of their renters.  I know that was an advantage of David's that you didn't have to worry or think about your renters.  I swear that some of this is about punishing David's, but the renters are real people who are in a bind.
> 
> I prefer to be kind to and look out for the renters rather than demanding more money to change a reservation, YYMV.


Have a lovely day, Robinb. Honestly, life is too short!


----------



## CraigInPA

robinb said:


> Yes, if you had held out for additional compensation I would indeed have judged you to reside on a lower moral rung.
> 
> This is a difficult time for everyone.  DVC members, renters and David's business.  Renters are _screwed_. They are stuck with reservations they cannot use and in contracts that do not allow for cancellations. The BEST they can do is take a loss and re-rent their reservations. The LEAST we can do is help them without demanding more money. As for your 30% balance, do you think there is a better or worse chance that it will be there is every owner bleeds David's dry with change fees?
> 
> I am frustrated that DVC members act like everything is like it used to be when they could rent their points through David's and then wash their hands of their renters.  I know that was an advantage of David's that you didn't have to worry or think about your renters.  I swear that some of this is about punishing David's, but the renters are real people who are in a bind.
> 
> I prefer to be kind to and look out for the renters rather than demanding more money to change a reservation, YYMV.



David's is charging a the new renters a fee. If they are using a voucher, it is at least $1 per point (the difference between the old fee structure and new fee structure). If they are completely new, they're paying whatever the listed amount is ($9-11 per point for close reservations). The original renters are getting a voucher (for $3-10 less per point than what they paid), so no money going back to them.

The owner is NOT required to do anything under the contract. Doing nothing means that the owner still gets the 30% on check-in day. That this owner is even considering changing the names on the contract shows that they have empathy for the original renters (who would lose everything if the owner did nothing). Whether the owner is compensated for changing the reservation or not, they have stepped up and done something nice for the original renters.

So, get off your high horse and see what's really going on here!


----------



## Dixie1337

CraigInPA said:


> The original renters are getting a voucher (for $3-10 less per point than what they paid), so no money going back to them.



I'm not sure if they're offering different things to different renters, but I asked to re-rent 2 different reservations in 2020 and was offered what I've seen everyone else get offered and it wasn't this.  Renters who want to try to re-rent their points for reservations in 2020 are being offered either the full amount as a voucher or a cash refund less $3 per point.


----------



## Marionnette

fancymouse said:


> Is it possible this is just a regular name change at the renter’s request? The contract does say renters can request a name change up until 30 days out (IIRC). Maybe they decided to give their reservation to a friend etc? I thought the $2 per point deal was for rerenting the points and it sounds like they had to get permission from the owner in order to do that. If they never asked you, I don’t think they can re-rent them and that’s why they may not have offered the extra money.


The renter can add or remove names prior to 30 days out, but not the lead guest’s name without re-renting the reservation. It’s a technicality but it comes down to the renter, not their surrogate, being the one with a contract with David’s. Subletting the reservation is not permitted. David’s wants to keep the original renter on the hook with a voucher while collecting a new rental fee from any lead name change.


----------



## spinchy

Dixie1337 said:


> I'm not sure if they're offering different things to different renters, but I asked to re-rent 2 different reservations in 2020 and was offered what I've seen everyone else get offered and it wasn't this.  Renters who want to try to re-rent their points for reservations in 2020 are being offered either the full amount as a voucher or a cash refund less $3 per point.



This is what I was offered, however since their prices have gone up since I booked the voucher is no longer worth as much.  In my case, I booked when Davids charged $2/pt less.  While the voucher is dollar for dollar equivalent, on a point for point basis it is worth less than what I signed up for.  Not saying this is fair/unfair, just a fact that the voucher is worth less than what it replaces for me.


----------



## robinb

CraigInPA said:


> David's is charging a the new renters a fee. If they are using a voucher, it is at least $1 per point (the difference between the old fee structure and new fee structure). If they are completely new, they're paying whatever the listed amount is ($9-11 per point for close reservations). The original renters are getting a voucher (for $3-10 less per point than what they paid), so no money going back to them.
> 
> The owner is NOT required to do anything under the contract. Doing nothing means that the owner still gets the 30% on check-in day. That this owner is even considering changing the names on the contract shows that they have empathy for the original renters (who would lose everything if the owner did nothing). Whether the owner is compensated for changing the reservation or not, they have stepped up and done something nice for the original renters.
> 
> So, get off your high horse and see what's really going on here!


I never said they would get a refund.  If the reservation is re-rented the original renters are not completely left holding the bag for a reservation they will never use.  If that's a voucher, it's absolutely better than nothing.  It makes sense that it would be for whatever David's sells the reservation for so I guess I don't see your point about it being for less than they paid.  They are the ones taking the loss, not the DVC member.  The DVC member still gets paid the full amount for the original reservation.

Demanding to be paid extra to help out the renters in this unique pandemic situation is NOT "nice".  Sitting back and saying "My contract doesn't require me to do Jack!" is NOT "nice".  If that opinion means that I'm on a "high horse" then I guess I'll just enjoy the view.


----------



## Bearval

CraigInPA said:


> David's is charging a the new renters a fee. If they are using a voucher, it is at least $1 per point (the difference between the old fee structure and new fee structure). If they are completely new, they're paying whatever the listed amount is ($9-11 per point for close reservations). The original renters are getting a voucher (for $3-10 less per point than what they paid), so no money going back to them.
> 
> The owner is NOT required to do anything under the contract. Doing nothing means that the owner still gets the 30% on check-in day. That this owner is even considering changing the names on the contract shows that they have empathy for the original renters (who would lose everything if the owner did nothing). Whether the owner is compensated for changing the reservation or not, they have stepped up and done something nice for the original renters.
> 
> So, get off your high horse and see what's really going on here!


Ditto on what CraiginPa said


----------



## Dixie1337

spinchy said:


> This is what I was offered, however since their prices have gone up since I booked the voucher is no longer worth as much.  In my case, I booked when Davids charged $2/pt less.  While the voucher is dollar for dollar equivalent, on a point for point basis it is worth less than what I signed up for.  Not saying this is fair/unfair, just a fact that the voucher is worth less than what it replaces for me.



You can look at it this way.  That's still not what CraigInPA was suggesting was happening either though


----------



## Sandisw

robinb said:


> Yes, if you had held out for additional compensation I would indeed have judged you to reside on a lower moral rung.
> 
> This is a difficult time for everyone.  DVC members, renters and David's business.  Renters are _screwed_. They are stuck with reservations they cannot use and in contracts that do not allow for cancellations. The BEST they can do is take a loss and re-rent their reservations. The LEAST we can do is help them without demanding more money. As for your 30% balance, do you think there is a better or worse chance that it will be there is every owner bleeds David's dry with change fees?
> 
> 
> I am frustrated that DVC members act like everything is like it used to be when they could rent their points through David's and then wash their hands of their renters.  I know that was an advantage of David's that you didn't have to worry or think about your renters.  I swear that some of this is about punishing David's, but the renters are real people who are in a bind.
> 
> I prefer to be kind to and look out for the renters rather than demanding more money to change a reservation, YYMV.



And owners are real people too and I don’t agree that expecting some of what David’s is charging the renter to make the adjustments is wrong,  When resorts were closed it was different, but yeah, I think if a renter is deciding not to go for whatever reason, they should also be happy and understanding about an owner who is willing to make changes as well and be willing to give a small token for that option.   Road goes both ways.


----------



## Bing Showei

Marionnette said:


> David’s wants to keep the original renter on the hook with a voucher while collecting a new rental fee from any lead name change.


This. A million times, this. It’s a point worth underscoring as I think those who don’t appreciate what David’s is actually doing is mistakenly seeing their endeavors as a “we’re-all in-this-together/united-we-stand” effort. If that is one’s starting point, the logical progression is that Owners need to also do their part.

This is not what is happening.

David’s are not being altruistic. It’s a calculated move to shift risk to everyone else but David’s. It’s a vehicle to generate liquidity; converting an already-paid-for reservation into an IOU and second booking on the same points. Renters risk holding onto a worthless voucher. Is it better than a non-refundable cancellation? Sure. But at the cost of owners being asked to assume new risks/terms far less favorable than the previous agreement. Regardless of what David’s are saying to owners, their message to new renters could not be more explicit: if the reservation becomes unavailable for ANY reason, David’s are off the hook, the onus is on the owners to issue a refund to the renter and David’s hands are washed of it. They send these terms and conveniently now copy owners on that same communication... in case there’s any question down the line that the owner was aware of this bit of language.

It feels like those who perpetuate the notion that David’s is allowing their non-refundable/non-cancelable rentals to suddenly be exchanged for a voucher are doing this out of some newly discovered empathy given the pandemic is prone to misplace any sense of obligation on the part of DVC owners. I would argue that owners who agree to the new terms are supporting a system that transfers all risk from the mediator to the owner and provides renters with a false sense of being made whole.

Everyone can agree that renters are in a bind. They are without a doubt the most risk-exposed out of any party. But pre-pandemic, David’s would’ve told these same renters to go pound sand if they aren’t able to go for *whatever* reason. Instead now, under cash crunch, David’s suddenly found religion and are so sympathetic to the plight of others?

Maybe. Or maybe they are taking advantage of renter desperation to kick the can down the road, double book points and shift the risk to owners.

The challenge for a lot of owners is that had David’s shown some good a good faith effort from the start to honestly shoulder some of the risk (e.g., offered to pass returned Owners monies directly to the renter, removed language that would screw renters with vouchers in a second forced closure, removed language that would screw owners in a re-rented forced closure, etc.), owners wouldn’t be questioning if it’s worth putting in any effort, especially if it means being left holding the bag as David‘s ropes in a second rental on the owner’s points.


----------



## Dixie1337

I don't really understand why everyone is ignoring the fact that renters are being offered cash refunds less a $3 per point rebooking fee on rebooked rentals.  That's not a voucher.  It's not 100% of your money back either but it's better than a kick in the butt which is really all you're entitled to under the contract.


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> I don't really understand why everyone is ignoring the fact that renters are being offered cash refunds less a $3 per point rebooking fee on rebooked rentals.  That's not a voucher.  It's not 100% of your money back either but it's better than a kick in the butt which is really all you're entitled to under the contract.



Exactly.  Renters really are the ones who are asking for some level of help.  Pandemic aside, renters always carried the most risk and asking the owner to agree to new terms for what would amountto a small $2.00/point fee is more than fair to them.  I mean, someone renting 100 points who paid $1900...gets $1600 back from a non refundable contract when technically services are being delivered.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

can someone please explain his process for re renting your cancelled points ? 
say your renter took a voucher and you offered to re rent your points -David’s has stated you Will Not be subject to the new terms and you will receive the the difference in what he charges now versus when you originally rented - but since you will have a brand new renter how are you Not subjected to the new terms??


----------



## VivalaDisney

Dixie1337 said:


> I don't really understand why everyone is ignoring the fact that renters are being offered cash refunds less a $3 per point rebooking fee on rebooked rentals.  That's not a voucher.  It's not 100% of your money back either but it's better than a kick in the butt which is really all you're entitled to under the contract.



Plus those who, in their hurry to attack owners trying to break even by recovering funds on a rapidly devaluing asset, are ignoring the renters who have received FULL refunds via a credit card chargeback or insurance.


----------



## SherylLC

..


WDWEPCOT said:


> can someone please explain his process for re renting your cancelled points ?
> say your renter took a voucher and you offered to re rent your points -David’s has stated you Will Not be subject to the new terms and you will receive the the difference in what he charges now versus when you originally rented - but since you will have a brand new renter how are you Not subjected to the new terms??


I can share my experience. David's has asked me to change the reservation to a new renter when the original one wanted to cancel/postpone the one they had. I'v done this three times. He offered "as a thank you" to me a $2 per point as a "courtesy" since by contract terms owners are not compelled to do this. When the poop hit the fan with closures, owners were forbidden by David's from contacting renters directly (owners have contact info for renters when they make the reservation, but renters do not) or else be in breach of contract and subject to prosecution blah-blah even though a majority of owners on this thread were more than willing to do what ever they could.

So David's, who just wanted to keep things under control, I get it, would take cancellation requests as they could handle them and sent owners change requests where applicable. I assume (I do not know for sure) if the reservation is cancelled the original renter gets a voucher...but as I said, I am not clear on this. So what happened to me as an owner, when I rescheduled the reservation, I got my $2/point and was cc'd on an email to the renter with a copy of THEIR CONTRACT WITH DAVID attached which stated if there was another closure, act of God, etc. that David's was 100% off the hook and the owner was 100% liable. At the time, I wrote David's and said NO WAY I was going to take on that risk and he wrote back saying that I shouldn't worry that I was not liable as I had not signed the new contract, etc. I can't believe I accepted that line of baloney! Of course, in the event of another closure, the renter is going to come after me! Why wouldn't they since they do not know that I never agreed to the same contract that they did.

Thank you, Bing Showei for reminding me of the history.

Thank you, Robinb, for reminding me what and who is nice and not nice.

I was going to reschedule this weekend for the latest renter, but I just emailed David and said that I can't take on the risk. I will stand by the contract I signed.

Edited to add: when David's sent the three new contracts, he cc'd me, not BCC'd, so if something goes awry the renters now have my contact info! So much for the privacy David's promised! I also believe he probably cc'd owners so he could pass the liability on to the owners. He'll probably argue since we knew about it, no matter that we didn't sign, it's maybe considered an electronic acceptance and the contract stands. Just guessing!


----------



## spinchy

Sandisw said:


> Exactly.  Renters really are the ones who are asking for some level of help.  Pandemic aside, renters always carried the most risk and asking the owner to agree to new terms for what would amountto a small $2.00/point fee is more than fair to them.  I mean, someone renting 100 points who paid $1900...gets $1600 back from a non refundable contract when technically services are being delivered.


I wonder if part of the reason for Davids to be offering anything to renters now that the resort is open is because "services being delivered" could still be debatable.   Those coming from other countries (or even some parts of the US) didn't have access to the resorts due to travel restrictions.   Do you think this new willingness to try to make changes could be because he's afraid more credit cards might decide in favour of the renter still?


----------



## SherylLC

spinchy said:


> I wonder if part of the reason for Davids to be offering anything to renters now that the resort is open is because "services being delivered" could still be debatable.   Those coming from other countries (or even some parts of the US) didn't have access to the resorts due to travel restrictions.   Do you think this new willingness to try to make changes could be because he's afraid more credit cards might decide in favour of the renter still?


Well, under new contracts OWNERS are liable not only for cost of reservation but also expenses (airfare, new accommodations, etc.). He has no reason not to entice renters into a new contract.


----------



## Sandisw

spinchy said:


> I wonder if part of the reason for Davids to be offering anything to renters now that the resort is open is because "services being delivered" could still be debatable.   Those coming from other countries (or even some parts of the US) didn't have access to the resorts due to travel restrictions.   Do you think this new willingness to try to make changes could be because he's afraid more credit cards might decide in favour of the renter still?



I think he could be but again, a travel restriction doesn’t amend or take away from the contract signed,  So, strictly speaking, the room  reservation is there,

Normally, that type of issue would be covered under travel insurance but some are having trouble as its COVID,  On the other hand, maybe those under the restriction can file a claim on those grounds?

I am sure he wouldn’t want chargebacks, but honestly, I think with resorts open, he would win as nothing in the contract is being breached with the room still booked,

These comments are not meant to be harsh toward a renter, but they chose to rent for the discount and assumed the risk.  IMO, I bet most renters have no issue in giving owners the extra if it means they have a chance to get the bulk of their funds returned...knowing It’s them asking for the exception,


----------



## Sandisw

SherylLC said:


> ..
> 
> I can share my experience. David's has asked me to change the reservation to a new renter when the original one wanted to cancel/postpone the one they had. I'v done this three times. He offered "as a thank you" to me a $2 per point as a "courtesy" since by contract terms owners are not compelled to do this. When the poop hit the fan with closures, owners were forbidden by David's from contacting renters directly (owners have contact info for renters when they make the reservation, but renters do not) or else be in breach of contract and subject to prosecution blah-blah even though a majority of owners on this thread were more than willing to do what ever they could.
> 
> So David's, who just wanted to keep things under control, I get it, would take cancellation requests as they could handle them and sent owners change requests where applicable. I assume (I do not know for sure) if the reservation is cancelled the original renter gets a voucher...but as I said, I am not clear on this. So what happened to me as an owner, when I rescheduled the reservation, I got my $2/point and was cc'd on an email to the renter with a copy of THEIR CONTRACT WITH DAVID attached which stated if there was another closure, act of God, etc. that David's was 100% off the hook and the owner was 100% liable. At the time, I wrote David's and said NO WAY I was going to take on that risk and he wrote back saying that I shouldn't worry that I was not liable as I had not signed the new contract, etc. I can't believe I accepted that line of baloney! Of course, in the event of another closure, the renter is going to come after me! Why wouldn't they since they do not know that I never agreed to the same contract that they did.
> 
> Thank you, Bing Showei for reminding me of the history.
> 
> Thank you, Robinb, for reminding me what and who is nice and not nice.
> 
> I was going to reschedule this weekend for the latest renter, but I just emailed David and said that I can't take on the risk. I will stand by the contract I signed.
> 
> Edited to add: when David's sent the new contracts, he cc'd owners not BCC'd so if something goes awry the renters now have my contact info! So much for the privacy David's promised! I also believe he probably cc'd owners so he could pass the liability on to the owners. He'll probably argue since we knew about it, no matter that we didn't sign, it's maybe considered an electronic acceptance and the contract stands. Just guessing!



This is exactly why I too would have been weary.  He can say you are not liable, but if the new rental contract with your name and the renter says you are, you are.  There is never an actual signature involved in his transactions.

I am glad you made the decision that works best for you.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you for this I have been pondering this and I just don’t believe a word they say ! We will be on a permanent break as I’ve made it crystal clear I Will Not be under the terms of his new contract 
He can go pound sand


----------



## New Mouse

RachStu said:


> To my surpise, David's informed me today they had a new renter for a stay due to commence in 9 days. I was slightly dismayed to realise they did not try to obtain payment from the new renter until after I'd made the change.  I've had issues with David's not receiving payment before so if that happens in the current case after I've gone to the trouble of calling member services I'll be mightily p*ssed!



Hes selling at 9 a point so not overly surprised.   My questions is 9 a point....2 a point goes to the owner...7 a point isnt covering his loss if he offered a voucher to soneone who paid 20 a point.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> Hes selling at 9 a point so not overly surprised.   My questions is 9 a point....2 a point goes to the owner...7 a point isnt covering his loss if he offered a voucher to soneone who paid 20 a point.



Are we sure that those reservations being rented that low are giving the original renter more than what he got?


----------



## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> Are we sure that those reservations being rented that low are giving the original renter more than what he got?



Well hes not giving anyone back cash...i had not heard of anyone getting a voucher for less than what they paid... so im not sure.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> Well hes not giving anyone back cash...i had not heard of anyone getting a voucher for less than what they paid... so im not sure.



There is a post a few back that stated some renters now are being given that option. Who knows though because the policies with his company have changed many times over.


----------



## Dixie1337

New Mouse said:


> Well hes not giving anyone back cash...i had not heard of anyone getting a voucher for less than what they paid... so im not sure.



oh come on


----------



## starry_solo

I would think that the reservations that are being lowered are for people who want a cash refund back. My friend lowered the price of hers so she could at least get some money back.  I thought the voucher was dependent on whether the reservation was rented out.  So, if the reservation wasn't rented out, the original renter got nothing.  But if it is rented out at a discounted price, they got the voucher for the discounted price, not the full price they paid.  And if they wanted cash back, they would get it at the discounted price, minus the $3 restocking fee.


----------



## Spark65

WDWEPCOT said:


> He can go pound sand



I like you!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you ! I’m usually more colorful but I don’t want to be kicked off the DIS I love  the DIS 
There is no love between David and me - more and more I see him as Daddy Warbucks or Scrooge McDuck sitting on his pile of cash laughing at the poor renters !


----------



## quandrea

WDWEPCOT said:


> Thank you ! I’m usually more colorful but I don’t want to be kicked off the DIS I love ❤ the DIS
> There is no love between David and me - more and more I see him as Daddy Warbucks or Scrooge McDuck sitting on his pile of cash laughing at the poor renters !


Agreed. Reading all these horror stories. I will never rent out  points with him again. I have 289 points that may expire. I’d rather that happen than use his services.


----------



## SherylLC

WDWEPCOT said:


> Thank you for this I have been pondering this and I just don’t believe a word they say ! We will be on a permanent break as I’ve made it crystal clear I Will Not be under the terms of his new contract
> He can go pound sand


Yes, I'm so glad Robinb spoke up from the "view from her high-horse" that she admits she embraces! I made original changes 4-5 months ago and all of us have been through a lot since then. We're all just trying to survive this weird, new, scary world. I was willing to change another reservation at first, but now that I remember David's terms, I realize that if I do that I'll be liable for a heck of a lot more than just the monies I received for the rental! Several times more if I have to pay it back plus possibly airfare, incidentals, replacement accommodations etc. for a family of five! I 100% believe that without a vaccine the pandemic will resurface again (and likely will before a vaccine is made available) so this is not a gamble I am willing to make.

David's messed up. He didn't allow for pandemic. He's not alone. Not many of us thought we needed to consider it. He had a unprotected business model and is now is trying to pull his business out but is doing it on the shoulders of owners whose goodwill may end up being ruinous for them. Messy situation. Renters are on the short stick of it but owners should not be bullied/shamed or otherwise pressured to put their necks and pocketbooks on the line for an unknown.


----------



## spinchy

SherylLC said:


> Well, under new contracts OWNERS are liable not only for cost of reservation but also expenses (airfare, new accommodations, etc.). He has no reason not to entice renters into a new contract.


Owners will only be liable for those extra costs if they are responsible for cancelling the reservation (or losing the reservation for non-payment of dues, etc).


----------



## Bearval

Dixie1337 said:


> I don't really understand why everyone is ignoring the fact that renters are being offered cash refunds less a $3 per point rebooking fee on rebooked rentals.  That's not a voucher.  It's not 100% of your money back either but it's better than a kick in the butt which is really all you're entitled to under the contract.


You are wrong concerning your statement that a renter was entitled to nothing under the contract   if you are referring to the time DVC was closed. They paid for a room and would have been in default if the chose not to go, problem was no room was provided.   This is why those who chose to do a chargeback are winning their claims.


----------



## SherylLC

spinchy said:


> Owners will only be liable for those extra costs if they are responsible for cancelling the reservation (or losing the reservation for non-payment of dues, etc).


I admit I may be wrong on this. I hope I am. But I am still not willing to go into an agreement where one party has accepted under certain conditions but the other party is bound by different conditions. My understanding is the new contracts make owners liable under force majuere, but I am getting older, LOL, and could be mistaken.


----------



## spinchy

Sandisw said:


> I think he could be but again, a travel restriction doesn’t amend or take away from the contract signed,  So, strictly speaking, the room  reservation is there,
> 
> Normally, that type of issue would be covered under travel insurance but some are having trouble as its COVID,  On the other hand, maybe those under the restriction can file a claim on those grounds?
> 
> I am sure he wouldn’t want chargebacks, but honestly, I think with resorts open, he would win as nothing in the contract is being breached with the room still booked,
> 
> These comments are not meant to be harsh toward a renter, but they chose to rent for the discount and assumed the risk.  IMO, I bet most renters have no issue in giving owners the extra if it means they have a chance to get the bulk of their funds returned...knowing It’s them asking for the exception,


As a renter, I was more than happy to lose a portion of the money paid to get that exception.   My expectation was that some of that was for the owner.
As an owner, I haven't yet been asked to make a change, but  I'd be unwilling to do it unless Davids was giving me a portion of that money.

Being on both sides of the issue, I agree with your last point completely.  

If David's isn't afraid of losing more charge backs, the only other reason for doing this is customer satisfaction.  He's creating a lot of extra work for his staff (for not a lot of extra money) buy opening the door to these changes now that the resorts are open.  I wonder if it's a combination of pressure from forums like this and a fear that credit card companies might still allow charge backs going forward.   Either way, from my renter perspective, I'm glad he's at least trying to help people who want/need to back out now.  He certainly doesn't have to at this point.   And owners don't have to agree to help out.  So thanks to all who choose to!


----------



## spinchy

SherylLC said:


> I admit I may be wrong on this. I hope I am. But I am still not willing to go into an agreement where one party has accepted under certain conditions but the other party is bound by different conditions. My understanding is the new contracts make owners liable under force majuere, but I am getting older, LOL, and could be mistaken.


I've just been through the process with them from the owner side.   Under force majeure, we'd agree to pay back the money already given to us by David's.   Which may be issue enough to make you not want to do business with them.   But the parts about extra costs (travel, finding comparable accommodations, etc) only apply if we are responsible for the room not being provided.


----------



## Sandisw

spinchy said:


> As a renter, I was more than happy to lose a portion of the money paid to get that exception.   My expectation was that some of that was for the owner.
> As an owner, I haven't yet been asked to make a change, but  I'd be unwilling to do it unless Davids was giving me a portion of that money.
> 
> Being on both sides of the issue, I agree with your last point completely.
> 
> If David's isn't afraid of losing more charge backs, the only other reason for doing this is customer satisfaction.  He's creating a lot of extra work for his staff (for not a lot of extra money) buy opening the door to these changes now that the resorts are open.  I wonder if it's a combination of pressure from forums like this and a fear that credit card companies might still allow charge backs going forward.   Either way, from my renter perspective, I'm glad he's at least trying to help people who want/need to back out now.  He certainly doesn't have to at this point.   And owners don't have to agree to help out.  So thanks to all who choose to!



 Very good points and I am thinking it may end up being his new business model because issues with COVID will be around for awhile and he opened the door in allowing this and I think it will be hard to change it in the future.

Again, owners who choose to go with him will know what they are agreeing to and that will work if they decide to still rent.  I won’t again because I don’t like his contract, but as long as the new model works for renters and owners, more power to them!


----------



## Bearval

SherylLC said:


> I admit I may be wrong on this. I hope I am. But I am still not willing to go into an agreement where one party has accepted under certain conditions but the other party is bound by different conditions. My understanding is the new contracts make owners liable under force majuere, but I am getting older, LOL, and could be mistaken.


My question is if you are a renter and the owner cancels your reservations who goes after the owner for restitution?  Is this spelled out in the contract?  Does David reimburse the renter and he sues the owners for the room ,airfare and other expenses? Or does he tell the renter they have to sue? I would like to see how this would play out especially of the owner is not based in the U.S.  even if it was in the U.S. this would most likely exceed the limits of small claims courts.   Also what recourse would you have with an overseas owner who may have even sold his timeshare?


----------



## Marionnette

Bearval said:


> You are wrong concerning your statement that a renter was entitled to nothing under the contract   if you are referring to the time DVC was closed. They paid for a room and would have been in default if the chose not to go, problem was no room was provided.   This is why those who chose to do a chargeback are winning their claims.


I believe that’s true regarding reservations which were cancelled during the shutdown.

Now that resorts are open, David’s is giving the renters two options should they decide not to travel. Option #1 is to accept a full-price voucher, which I believe is what is being offered to international travelers who cannot visit the USA. Option#2 is to accept a cash refund minus $3/point, which I  believe is being offered to both foreign and domestic travelers who wish to cancel. Both are contingent on the owner re-renting the reservation. If the owner chooses not to re-rent the reservation or points, then under the previous intermediary agreement the owner still gets paid. But if the owner elects to re-rent their reservation or points, David’s will pay them $2/point for their efforts.

So think about it. In option #1, the renter gets a full-price credit, but under David’s new rental prices, it costs $1-$3 more per point versus a year ago. The renter will pay that much more for the same reservation when they redeem their voucher. Or they will shorten their trip by a day or two, which ultimately results in a leftover credit that gets forfeited. A win for David’s.

In Option #2, David’s keeps $3/point from the original renter. They charge the new renter $1-$3 more per point under their new 2020 price structure. They pay the owner $2/point and keep $2-$4 per point for their efforts. They are returning their commission to the original renter ($4.50/point) but they are collecting it from the new renter on the back end. Another win for David’s.

ETA: And if the owner cannot/will not re-rent the reservation or points, David’s gets to keep the original commission, the owner is still entitled to payment under the original “no refunds” terms of the agreement. The reservation would sit empty and unused. But the renter? It sounds as if they would be SOL.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Daddy Warbucks !! Sitting on his cash ! He’s not helping anyone but himself - I’ve found his staff to be rude and very demanding since this covid started on both the renter and owner sides since I’ve had horses in both races ! 
ymmv - but I for one am so done with him ! I have one rental checking in 9/5 I hope to be paid but if not so be it because as far as I’m concerned he can keep the 3 30% he owes me and we can all walk away - which I’ve told him in writing which he promptly ignored - strong arm tactics don’t work with me and I told he mgr that!


----------



## New Mouse

spinchy said:


> Owners will only be liable for those extra costs if they are responsible for cancelling the reservation (or losing the reservation for non-payment of dues, etc).



That is not what the contract says.


----------



## Marionnette

New Mouse said:


> That is not what the contract says.


You’re reading the contracts incorrectly.

*From the Intermediary Agreement that both renter and owner get after the reservation is secured:*

15. Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and, after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the parties agree that Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is _______________ US Dollars which refund shall be the responsibility of Owner. In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.

*From the Intermediary Agreement that the owner gets when offering up their points if the owner fails to maintain the reservation:*
​7. The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs.

*But in the event of a force majeure that is beyond the control of all parties (also from the owner’s intermediary agreement): *

10. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has paid 70% of the funds collected for the reservation from Guest to DVC Owner pursuant to 4(f) of this Agreement, DVC Owner will return to Intermediary the full amount it has already received from Intermediary, as soon as is reasonably possible after the conditions(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to DVC Owner. A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to DVC Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.
​​​​​​


----------



## spinchy

New Mouse said:


> That is not what the contract says.


unless you have a different contract than the one I received, it is very specifically what the contract says


----------



## SherylLC

spinchy said:


> I've just been through the process with them from the owner side.   Under force majeure, we'd agree to pay back the money already given to us by David's.   Which may be issue enough to make you not want to do business with them.   But the parts about extra costs (travel, finding comparable accommodations, etc) only apply if we are responsible for the room not being provided.


I hear you and I believe you. But given that the likelihood of force majeure coming into play again very soon, as an owner I'm better off with the original contract.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

# 15 is my problem - included but not limited to - talk about leaving a door open on that one 
Keep in mind - he stated as an owner I would be under terms of my original contract - but he slips this in AND he has stated it is the DVC Owners who were responsible for the closing of the resorts during - can’t be trusted !


----------



## SherylLC

WDWEPCOT said:


> # 15 is my problem - included but not limited to - talk about leaving a door open on that one
> Keep in mind - he stated as an owner I would be under terms of my original contract - but he slips this in AND he has stated it is the DVC Owners who were responsible for the closing of the resorts during - can’t be trusted !


and this part: "as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion"


----------



## robinb

SherylLC said:


> I was going to reschedule this weekend for the latest renter, but I just emailed David and said that I can't take on the risk. I will stand by the contract I signed.


So you're not going allow David's to re-rent the points?


----------



## Minniesgal

robinb said:


> So you're not going allow David's to re-rent the points?




I wouldn't with those new terms and conditions.


----------



## AquaDame

Minniesgal said:


> I wouldn't with those new terms and conditions.



I had thought someone mentioned keeping their original contract on the owner's side..? Is he no longer doing that?

I finally sent the email asking mine to be tossed into the olympic sized pool of dedicated reservations. I've been assuming the money is lost since WDW is not showing any signs of closing again, even going so far as to announce even shorter hours, so if it doesn't work oh well. At least I did SOMETHING to try to mitigate losses.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> ... more and more I see him as Daddy Warbucks or Scrooge McDuck sitting on his pile of cash laughing at the poor renters !







spinchy said:


> I've just been through the process with them from the owner side.   Under force majeure, we'd agree to pay back the money already given to us by David's.   Which may be issue enough to make you not want to do business with them.   But the parts about extra costs (travel, finding comparable accommodations, etc) *only apply if we are responsible for the room not being provided*.





WDWEPCOT said:


> # 15 is my problem - included but not limited to - talk about leaving a door open on that one
> Keep in mind - he stated as an owner I would be under terms of my original contract - but he slips this in AND *he has stated it is the DVC Owners who were responsible for the closing of the resorts* during - can’t be trusted !


This would be my concern.  Some have argued that DVC closing *was *technically the owner's responsibility.  Even though the owner didn't personally cancel, they were unable to honor the contract to provide a reservation (not just the points used for the reservation).  Owners could be held responsible for future closures even though it's DVC and not the owner cancelling the reservation.


----------



## SherylLC

Bearval said:


> My question is if you are a renter and the owner cancels your reservations who goes after the owner for restitution?  Is this spelled out in the contract?  Does David reimburse the renter and he sues the owners for the room ,airfare and other expenses? Or does he tell the renter they have to sue? I would like to see how this would play out especially of the owner is not based in the U.S.  even if it was in the U.S. this would most likely exceed the limits of small claims courts.   Also what recourse would you have with an overseas owner who may have even sold his timeshare?


That is an excellent question and it illustrates beautifully what a lot of people lose sight of.

If an owner cancels the reservation they will have broken their contract with David's and David's would pursue (and rightfully be given, I hope) restitution. Now David's would work with the renter to determine what restitution would be but the onus would remain with David's to pursue a settlement. The renter would not have the right to do this because there is no agreement between owner and renter. There are TWO agreements-one between owner and David's, and a second independent agreement between David's and the renter.

That's my understanding and if I've got this wrong, someone please jump in...


----------



## Bearval

SherylLC said:


> That is an excellent question and it illustrates beautifully what a lot of people lose sight of.
> 
> If an owner cancels the reservation they will have broken their contract with David's and David's would pursue (and rightfully be given, I hope) restitution. Now David's would work with the renter to determine what restitution would be but the onus would remain with David's to pursue a settlement. The renter would not have the right to do this because there is no agreement between owner and renter. There are TWO agreements-one between owner and David's, and a second independent agreement between David's and the renter.
> 
> That's my understanding and if I've got this wrong, someone please jump
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherylLC said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is an excellent question and it illustrates beautifully what a lot of people lose sight of.
> 
> If an owner cancels the reservation they will have broken their contract with David's and David's would pursue (and rightfully be given, I hope) restitution. Now David's would work with the renter to determine what restitution would be but the onus would remain with David's to pursue a settlement. The renter would not have the right to do this because there is no agreement between owner and renter. There are TWO agreements-one between owner and David's, and a second independent agreement between David's and the renter.
> 
> That's my understanding and if I've got this wrong, someone please jump in...
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you getting the information from that David's will pursue restitution? Are you quoting it from the contract or are you assuming that is what they would do? Remember,  the recent track record they have  has a lot to be desired.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> I had thought someone mentioned keeping their original contract on the owner's side..? Is he no longer doing that?
> 
> I finally sent the email asking mine to be tossed into the olympic sized pool of dedicated reservations. I've been assuming the money is lost since WDW is not showing any signs of closing again, even going so far as to announce even shorter hours, so if it doesn't work oh well. At least I did SOMETHING to try to mitigate losses.



He says you are but the agreement with the new renter, which you become a part of and has your name as a party to the contract states you agree to new terms that are not in any of the old ones,

So, ultimately, you are entering into something that could make you liable regardless of what he is saying if there is a closure down the road.


----------



## SherylLC

To Bearval:
Where am I getting information that David's will pursue restitution? I'm not saying he "would," I'm surmising he would be legally entitled to. That's only my understanding since as an owner I entered into a contract with him. My understanding is that the renter has no standing to come after me if I did something dishonest since nothing in my contract with David's specifies any specific renter. Where I get fuzzy is David being an INTERMEDIARY. I'm not sure how that affects the legal ties/relationship between owner and renter.

Anyone with thoughts? A little help here?


----------



## Bearval

SherylLC said:


> To Bearval:
> Where am I getting information that David's will pursue restitution? I'm not saying he "would," I'm surmising he would be legally entitled to. That's only my understanding since as an owner I entered into a contract with him. My understanding is that the renter has no standing to come after me if I did something dishonest since nothing in my contract with David's specifies any specific renter. Where I get fuzzy is David being an INTERMEDIARY. I'm not sure how that affects the legal ties/relationship between owner and renter.
> 
> Anyone with thoughts? A little help here?


----------



## Bearval

As an intermediary they do have a responsibility to ensure at the time of the contract the product exists. They do this by not sending you any monies until you send them the confirmation number of the reservation.  Good luck on assuming they will take legal action on your behalf of you are a renter if the owner then cancels.  I would want the process of the intermediary having to reimburse me written into the contract.


----------



## Deb & Bill

WDWEPCOT said:


> Daddy Warbucks !! Sitting on his cash ! He’s not helping anyone but himself - I’ve found his staff to be rude and very demanding since this covid started on both the renter and owner sides since I’ve had horses in both races !
> ymmv - but I for one am so done with him ! I have one rental checking in 9/5 I hope to be paid but if not so be it because as far as I’m concerned he can keep the 3 30% he owes me and we can all walk away - which I’ve told him in writing which he promptly ignored - strong arm tactics don’t work with me and I told he mgr that!


That's gonna sink his yacht.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

Sandisw said:


> He says you are but the agreement with the new renter, which you become a part of *and has your name as a party to the contract* *states you agree to new terms* that are not in any of the old ones,
> 
> So, ultimately, you are entering into something that could make you liable regardless of what he is saying if there is a closure down the road.



The closures due to this pandemic shined a light on the flawed nature of separate contract between the owner/David's and David's/renter.  I see a similar (perhaps worse) flaw in owners being told they are still under the terms of the old contract, but the renter's (new) contract says the owner is liable.

How can this be in the renter's contract without the owner consenting to entering into those terms of the agreement?

And how can the renter be assured that the owner is liable for their losses when the owner has not agreed to that?



Deb & Bill said:


> That's gonna sink his yacht.


----------



## Dean Marino

So - a little off topic.  What WE did....
DVC owners, BRV, WDW will rob us of 147 points by 3-31-2021.

We THOUGHT "rent em". Then we saw the legal mess of 2020. We gave up, and went out of the box.

We have DONATED those points to a lovely family within driving distance of WDW.  Mom, Dad, and two wonderful daughters.

DVC will not get these points.  We will not get sued.  And another Family will be very happy .  I am sleeping better now .


----------



## Sandisw

Grumpy by Birth said:


> The closures due to this pandemic shined a light on the flawed nature of separate contract between the owner/David's and David's/renter.  I see a similar (perhaps worse) flaw in owners being told they are still under the terms of the old contract, but the renter's (new) contract says the owner is liable.  How can this be in the renter's contract without the owner consenting to entering into those terms of the agreement?
> 
> 
> View attachment 518788



Yup.  This is why it’s not as simple as an owner changing things to help original renters who can’t or don’t want to go, regardless of reason.

Changing a name IS basically doing a new rental...and while I feel for renters who lose in this situation, owners also need to be comfortable with what they could be stuck doing if resorts closed, that they currently don’t have to do.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I agree I tried to help my renters then David got involved and I just can’t afford that risk ! He’s all about screwing the Owners while he does the renters too ! I didn’t think he could make matters worse but I was so wrong - he couldn’t write a contract correctly the first time and obviously he’s still using the Three Stooges for this round of contracts because telling me as an Owner I’m under my original contract terms then putting me on the new terms is dirty pool! No thanks I’ll pass 
Good Day and Good Bye!!


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

WDWEPCOT said:


> I agree I tried to help my renters then David got involved and I just can’t afford that risk ! He’s all about screwing the Owners while he does the renters too ! I didn’t think he could make matters worse but I was so wrong - he couldn’t write a contract correctly the first time and *obviously he’s still using the Three Stooges* for this round of contracts because telling me as an Owner I’m under my original contract terms then putting me on the new terms is dirty pool! No thanks I’ll pass
> *Good Day and Good Bye!!*


----------



## WDWEPCOT

You read my mind !!


----------



## Mumof4mice

Dean Marino said:


> So - a little off topic.  What WE did....
> DVC owners, BRV, WDW will rob us of 147 points by 3-31-2021.
> 
> We THOUGHT "rent em". Then we saw the legal mess of 2020. We gave up, and went out of the box.
> 
> We have DONATED those points to a lovely family within driving distance of WDW.  Mom, Dad, and two wonderful daughters.
> 
> DVC will not get these points.  We will not get sued.  And another Family will be very happy .  I am sleeping better now .



A lovely gift for the lucky family, and the best outcome out of the bad situation!  

How did you find the recipients?


----------



## robinb

Dean Marino said:


> So - a little off topic.  What WE did....
> DVC owners, BRV, WDW will rob us of 147 points by 3-31-2021.
> 
> We THOUGHT "rent em". Then we saw the legal mess of 2020. We gave up, and went out of the box.
> 
> We have DONATED those points to a lovely family within driving distance of WDW.  Mom, Dad, and two wonderful daughters.
> 
> DVC will not get these points.  We will not get sued.  And another Family will be very happy .  I am sleeping better now .


That is awesome!  You are very kind .


----------



## quandrea

Dean Marino said:


> So - a little off topic.  What WE did....
> DVC owners, BRV, WDW will rob us of 147 points by 3-31-2021.
> 
> We THOUGHT "rent em". Then we saw the legal mess of 2020. We gave up, and went out of the box.
> 
> We have DONATED those points to a lovely family within driving distance of WDW.  Mom, Dad, and two wonderful daughters.
> 
> DVC will not get these points.  We will not get sued.  And another Family will be very happy .  I am sleeping better now .


This is my plan as well. I’m reconciled to losing 289 banked points come November 2021. If I can’t use them, I plan on gifting them to friends who can travel. I’ll never rent points again, especially not through David’s. I’ve watched this saga unfold since March. It’s August now and the whole thing is still a mess.


----------



## lawboy2001

Grumpy by Birth said:


> The closures due to this pandemic shined a light on the flawed nature of separate contract between the owner/David's and David's/renter.  I see a similar (perhaps worse) flaw in owners being told they are still under the terms of the old contract, but the renter's (new) contract says the owner is liable.
> 
> How can this be in the renter's contract without the owner consenting to entering into those terms of the agreement?
> 
> And how can the renter be assured that the owner is liable for their losses when the owner has not agreed to that?
> 
> 
> View attachment 518788



I think David's has a lot of different contacts now.  I rented a reservation to a new renter, and noticed that the new contact listed all three of us -- me; renters; Davids -- as parties.  And the contact said nothing about owner liability if there is a new closure, so I don't know where that is coming from, unless there are a variety of contacts David's uses.  

Since the rental was only a week and a half in the future, I wasn't worried about 'another closure' in any case though....


----------



## Minniesgal

Sandisw said:


> He says you are but the agreement with the new renter, which you become a part of and has your name as a party to the contract states you agree to new terms that are not in any of the old ones,
> 
> So, ultimately, you are entering into something that could make you liable regardless of what he is saying if there is a closure down the road.



This and the fact the trust has gone..


----------



## SleeplessInTO

The contract with David’s (as an owner) was a mess. I had a dedicated Feb reservation to rent out but his team could not give me a clear answer on this force majeure clause. They talked about me being on the hook to return the initial 70% if the parks were closed (even if DVC resorts still open), if there are border restrictions for non-US or non-Floridian travellers, etc and then contradicted themselves in the next email.

The conflicting responses made me too uneasy to deal with David’s. I don’t want to screw over any renters. But they are obviously inconsistent in their messaging and there’s a wide gap in expectations about who is responsible and for what in different scenarios. I’d prefer to be honest and upfront about what each party is agreeing to. 

For any other owners in a similar situation I’ve been looking at RCI as an option.


----------



## spinchy

Grumpy by Birth said:


> View attachment 518752
> 
> 
> 
> This would be my concern.  Some have argued that DVC closing *was *technically the owner's responsibility.  Even though the owner didn't personally cancel, they were unable to honor the contract to provide a reservation (not just the points used for the reservation).  Owners could be held responsible for future closures even though it's DVC and not the owner cancelling the reservation.


That's an interesting point of view.  I'm curious as to whether there's any legal grounds supporting that, or just somebody at David's who was trying to force the issue with certain owners by making that claim.    I'm also curious as to what it would take to actually close the resorts again.  If they're staying open through the current conditions in Florida, what would it really take for them to close up again?


----------



## Sandisw

spinchy said:


> That's an interesting point of view.  I'm curious as to whether there's any legal grounds supporting that, or just somebody at David's who was trying to force the issue with certain owners by making that claim.    I'm also curious as to what it would take to actually close the resorts again.  If they're staying open through the current conditions in Florida, what would it really take for them to close up again?



It has not been legally challenged, and based on specific contract langue that did not exist, the unclear part was the owners part or responsibilty to David’s.

He did keep the 30%, and it seems clear given the chargeback wins he was on the hook to renters.  But, he has not gone after any renter that we know of...no info posted here at least...who didn’t return the 70% or agree to rent points again.  Some did walk away.

I think that is why his new contracts tell owners they are indeed required to return the 70% if resorts close or any other issue like that.

The interesting part was that he told owners back then that DVCM closing was technically them and they owed money back...but then told renters owners were not responsible for the decision and therefore not entitled to a refund when the contract says any actions by owners results in one,

So, basically, it played it both ways which is why many owners lost faith And won’t use him again.


----------



## Grumpy by Birth

spinchy said:


> That's an interesting point of view.  I'm curious as to whether there's any legal grounds supporting that, or just somebody at David's who was trying to force the issue with certain owners by making that claim.



Likely, David's was making that statement to deflect responsibility away from his business.  That being said, there were some self-professed lawyers posting earlier on this thread (and perhaps some others) who seemed to be of the same opinion.  They stated that the owner was not just renting "points" but a "reservation."  And that, if the accommodations were not available, the owner was liable because customer didn't get the reservation they paid for.  

This illustrated what I consider a major flaw in the broker business model.  The broker is paying the owner for their (often expiring) points.  The broker then offers those points to a renter.  But the renter was never told that they were renting points with "conditions" (i.e., expiration).  It was never an issue when resorts were open because the renter was agreeing to a "non-refundable" reservation. This meant that the owner still got their money if the renter didn't show up, so it didn't matter that the points then expired.  The owner had been paid for points by the broker whether the renter actually used them or not.

But with COVID, the resorts closed and it put into question WHO owed WHO?  The renter was due a refund, but from WHO?  They had paid the broker, not the owner.  The owner had "sold/rented" their points to the broker, who accepted them knowing their expiration status.  It was just a big mess.

Now that we're in the reopening phase, things are still muddy... if a renter won't travel because they don't feel safe enough (or even if they are prevented from coming due to travel restrictions, etc.), that technically should still fall under the "non-refundable" status of the contract. 

It's admirable that the broker (and owners) are willing to still work with renters who can't/won't travel even though resorts are now open, but this actually complicates matters further because the accommodations promised ARE still being provided.  Those points will likely be lost because the renter did not keep their reservation, so who is on the hook?

There are no simple answers, but one thing is certain... if I had ever considered renting points in the past, I will NOT consider it moving forward.  We will gift our points to family/friends if we can't use them. 



spinchy said:


> I'm also curious as to what it would take to actually close the resorts again.  If they're staying open through the current conditions in Florida, what would it really take for them to close up again?



Hurricane?  Second wave of COVID-19?  Who would ever have thought that the resorts would be closed for months in the first place.  This has taught everyone that literally ANYthing could happen.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

If you read what David’s has said - he ASK owners IF they COULD return the money already paid to them if they are able to - clearly it is NOT in my contract that I would should or have to do this 
Again in same request he clearly ask in same manner to Owners about renting out their points again IF they are able to - again NOT in my contract 
He asked Owners to put aside their contracts and work from their hearts - well I was all for that - but Not to the extent that David’s puts all financial responsibility on me while he sits and just collects cash ! Just shows where His heart is! 
I really honestly feel horrible for all renters stuck right now - they really have no options - when resorts were closed you could pursue a chargeback but with resorts open you are stuck and it sucks! Who knew 11 months ago we would be where we are now ?? My stupid crystal ball failed on this one!!! Epic fail !!


----------



## RachStu

Does anyone know of any owners who requested they be paid their outstanding 30% for reservations that were during the closed period and, if so, what David stated in response? Am just curious. 

I received my additional $2 p/p today for re-renting a reservation. I’m surprised the reservation resold. Someone got a nice last minute bargain at $9/pt for BLT. I’ve got one reservation left for next month which is up for resale. I will not be renting my points via David’s again after that reservation has completed.


----------



## RachStu

SherylLC said:


> ..
> 
> So what happened to me as an owner, when I rescheduled the reservation, I got my $2/point and was cc'd on an email to the renter with a copy of THEIR CONTRACT WITH DAVID attached which stated if there was another closure, act of God, etc. that David's was 100% off the hook and the owner was 100% liable. At the time, I wrote David's and said NO WAY I was going to take on that risk and he wrote back saying that I shouldn't worry that I was not liable as I had not signed the new contract, etc. I can't believe I accepted that line of baloney! Of course, in the event of another closure, the renter is going to come after me! Why wouldn't they since they do not know that I never agreed to the same contract that they did.
> 
> ...
> 
> Edited to add: when David's sent the three new contracts, he cc'd me, not BCC'd, so if something goes awry the renters now have my contact info!



This charlatan has just done this to me, although he has BCC’d me in. This is fraud. He’s told the new renter that we have agreed to this tri-partite rental agreement to induce them into entering into a contract with him for this reservation. He should be reported to the Canadian version of trading standards. When I agreed to make the change I made it clear that it would not be subject to a new contract but would take effect as an amendment to the original intermediary agreement. He accepted this in writing. This is truly shocking behaviour for a business owner. It only goes to reinforce the decision I’d already made not to rent through him again (I hadn’t seen his email when I submitted my post immediately above this one).


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m very sorry this has happened to you 
I agree this does appear to be a form of fraud I’m no lawyer but I don’t see how any of this is legal he is taking a mess and making it worse God forbid the resorts close - at least Disney is currently stating it would hurt them more to close than to stay open with short hours


----------



## starry_solo

RachStu said:


> This charlatan has just done this to me, although he has BCC’d me in. This is fraud. He’s told the new renter that we have agreed to this tri-partite rental agreement to induce them into entering into a contract with him for this reservation. He should be reported to the Canadian version of trading standards. When I agreed to make the change I made it clear that it would not be subject to a new contract but would take effect as an amendment to the original intermediary agreement. He accepted this in writing. This is truly shocking behaviour for a business owner. It only goes to reinforce the decision I’d already made not to rent through him again (I hadn’t seen his email when I submitted my post immediately above this one).



Just send an email "reply all" that says that you do not agree to the change in terms and that you will be abiding by the terms of the original contract between David's and you.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Great idea to put in writing to all parties involved that you Never accepted any changes in terms and David’s have stated to you in writing that you would Not be held to the new terms ! Call him out on his sneaky behavior !!


----------



## CraigInPA

RachStu said:


> This charlatan has just done this to me, although he has BCC’d me in. This is fraud. He’s told the new renter that we have agreed to this tri-partite rental agreement to induce them into entering into a contract with him for this reservation. He should be reported to the Canadian version of trading standards. When I agreed to make the change I made it clear that it would not be subject to a new contract but would take effect as an amendment to the original intermediary agreement. He accepted this in writing. This is truly shocking behaviour for a business owner. It only goes to reinforce the decision I’d already made not to rent through him again (I hadn’t seen his email when I submitted my post immediately above this one).



Since you have the contact information for the owner, and David's contact information, you should send both the following email with the tripartite agreement attached:

I, (state your name), am not a part to the attached tripartite agreement, and am subject only to the original rental agreement in place for this rental dated (original agreement date). As such, the renter should not assume that the agreement signed by renter is fully enforceable against any party other than David's Vacation Rentals.
signed,
(state your name again)


----------



## SherylLC

CraigInPA said:


> Since you have the contact information for the owner, and David's contact information, you should send both the following email with the tripartite agreement attached:
> 
> I, (state your name), am not a part to the attached tripartite agreement, and am subject only to the original rental agreement in place for this rental dated (original agreement date). As such, the renter should not assume that the agreement signed by renter is fully enforceable against any party other than David's Vacation Rentals.
> signed,
> (state your name again)


THANK YOU!! THIS is very helpful!


----------



## connorlevismom

My re-rental checked in today and my money was transferred to me promptly. I am happy that everything worked out, but even happier that I can now sever ties with this unethical company.

After this company swore up and down IN WRITING that I was not bound to the new contract, I too, got the email to the renter (copying me) with their contact terms stating I was now liable. Thankfully I was only 2 weeks from the rental and was fairly certain this rental would happen.

I will NEVER rent with this company again. Now the issue becomes; who do I use now? I don't think I want to do it myself, so prefer a broker.


----------



## quandrea

I have to wonder how long the business will be able to stay afloat with so much bad word of mouth.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m so happy that it worked out for you - great blessing lol way around for you and renter ! What a wonderful feeling to be done!! Congratulations


----------



## EYL

connorlevismom said:


> I will NEVER rent with this company again. Now the issue becomes; who do I use now? I don't think I want to do it myself, so prefer a broker.



I used David's to rent out points and eventually refunded the money that I received.  I didn't think I would want to rent my points out myself either. But I gave it a try, and it turned out to be a great experience so far.  Just knowing that I would do the right thing if the resorts ever close down again (i.e., refund the money to the person who paid for it in the first place), gives me comfort.  I hope it gives the renters some comfort also.


----------



## johnkerryP

I had successfully used Davids in the past, back in 2015. I rented points for an Aulani trip for October. There has been basically no communication at this point yet, but there is just aboslutely no way the resort will open that soon. I feel for the owners, because we are all stuck. This whole thing has really put a bad taste in my mouth. I understand this is a very odd situation we're all in, and no one could've predicted it - however his reaction toward this process just strikes me as very poor business. I guess I just want to apologize as a renter, to the owners experiencing this - it shouldn't be this way. I worry this "credit" situation is just a giant ponzi scheme - but i also don't want the people i rented from to be impacted if i utilize my credit card to dispute the contract. Any insight into this? In a perfect world, I would just ask the owners directly if i could move it to another time that works for both of us - but I know that isn't feasible given this mediator in the middle. What the best option that leaves the owner and renter in the best available financial situation to walk away?


----------



## Dracula

johnkerryP said:


> I had successfully used Davids in the past, back in 2015. I rented points for an Aulani trip for October. There has been basically no communication at this point yet, but there is just aboslutely no way the resort will open that soon. I feel for the owners, because we are all stuck. This whole thing has really put a bad taste in my mouth. I understand this is a very odd situation we're all in, and no one could've predicted it - however his reaction toward this process just strikes me as very poor business. I guess I just want to apologize as a renter, to the owners experiencing this - it shouldn't be this way. I worry this "credit" situation is just a giant ponzi scheme - but i also don't want the people i rented from to be impacted if i utilize my credit card to dispute the contract. Any insight into this? In a perfect world, I would just ask the owners directly if i could move it to another time that works for both of us - but I know that isn't feasible given this mediator in the middle. What the best option that leaves the owner and renter in the best available financial situation to walk away?


Your best choice is to file a credit card chargeback when / if your Aulani reservation gets canceled. You should get all your money back and the owner would keep part of the money, and potentially re-rent with David. Then, with the cash in hand, when you are ready to rent again, reach out to one of the Aulani owners on this board, like me - you will save the headache of dealing with the intermediary and save money compared to David.

Alternately you can accept David's voucher - I know multiple people who took the voucher and went on to re-book, however the fine print on the voucher makes it less attractive than the chargeback, and you may end up forfeiting the money if David becomes bankrupt. This is probably the path to choose if you can afford to lose the money, and would like to help David to stay in business.

Based on our ongoing relationship, I think David is definitely cash constrained, but not bankrupt yet as he is still making payments to owners, albeit not as smoothly as he used to.


----------



## robinb

Does anyone know how David is currently handling immediate reservations at Aulani for owners?  I know there was a variety of procedures when DVC first shut down, but did he finally settle on one?  Also, what procedures are in place at DVC for expiring points used at a closed resort?  My advice to @johnkerryP depends on the answer to these questions.  Thanks!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Go for chargeback I had an Aulani rental and David’s could have cared less - I contacted him several times he stated he was too busy with FL to worry about Hawaii so I did and WON a chargeback
No way on Earth would I take that worthless voucher from a company that treats their clients and customers the way he does 
You do what you think is best but I would encourage you to rent from someone on these boards versus David’s you will be treated MUCH better. 
Good Luck!! Let us know how it goes!!


----------



## Dracula

robinb said:


> Does anyone know how David is currently handling immediate reservations at Aulani for owners?  I know there was a variety of procedures when DVC first shut down, but did he finally settle on one?  Also, what procedures are in place at DVC for expiring points used at a closed resort?  My advice to @johnkerryP depends on the answer to these questions.  Thanks!


Not sure I fully understand the first question... David relies on the owner to notify him of a reservation being canceled, then he in turn notifies the renter and offers a voucher. The owner is asked to refund the 70% paid or re-rent the points, although some people choose neither option. Disney is willing to un-borrow and do late banking for points used, but would only extend expiring banked points through the end of November.


----------



## Marionnette

robinb said:


> Does anyone know how David is currently handling immediate reservations at Aulani for owners?  I know there was a variety of procedures when DVC first shut down, but did he finally settle on one?  Also, what procedures are in place at DVC for expiring points used at a closed resort?  My advice to @johnkerryP depends on the answer to these questions.  Thanks!


DVC made minor exceptions for expiring points used at closed resorts.

For instance, for specific UYs, any banked points used for making a reservation during the closures at WDW were extended until Nov. 30, 2020. So, those 2 banked points from my Sept. UY  that were used for a May reservation will be useable for a reservation that ends on or before the night of 11/30/2020. But the kicker is that they have to expire first. They remain in my 2019 UY until they expire on 9/1/2020. Then DVC has to add them back in. I cannot use them to make a reservation that occurs after 8/31/2020 until they actually expire and DVC does its magic.

DVC is not offering any grace when it comes to banking deadlines. So if the reservation gets cancelled 7 months or more beyond the start of your UY, your points cannot be banked forward and have a limited remaining life.

Borrowed points are being returned to their original UY if a reservation is cancelled. This is true whether the owner or Disney cancels the reservation. This courtesy could end at any time but has been the rule for several months now.

Unfortunately, @johnkerryP would have no idea what UY the owner has, nor whether the points used were banked, current or borrowed. To my knowledge, David’s is not sharing that information with renters even though they collect that information when an owner signs up with them. I believe that their procedure for handling closures vs cancellations by renters are being handled differently. If the resort was closed by Disney, then the renter is being offered a voucher.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

He never offered me one for my Aulani rental when the resort was closed and I believe other Aulani renters have posted the same - as with David he is not consistent in how he handles things


----------



## connorlevismom

johnkerryP said:


> I had successfully used Davids in the past, back in 2015. I rented points for an Aulani trip for October. There has been basically no communication at this point yet, but there is just aboslutely no way the resort will open that soon. I feel for the owners, because we are all stuck. This whole thing has really put a bad taste in my mouth. I understand this is a very odd situation we're all in, and no one could've predicted it - however his reaction toward this process just strikes me as very poor business. I guess I just want to apologize as a renter, to the owners experiencing this - it shouldn't be this way. I worry this "credit" situation is just a giant ponzi scheme - but i also don't want the people i rented from to be impacted if i utilize my credit card to dispute the contract. Any insight into this? In a perfect world, I would just ask the owners directly if i could move it to another time that works for both of us - but I know that isn't feasible given this mediator in the middle. What the best option that leaves the owner and renter in the best available financial situation to walk away?



As an owner, I would absolutely encourage you 100% to do a chargeback. Under NO circumstance would I tell you take a voucher from this company. I appreciate your concern for the owner, but you have to look out for yourself and like I said, I would NOT take that voucher. Seeing what he did to owners that offered to change the name on reservations to try and help, it is very clear to me that he will lie (in writing no-less) without any regard to anyone but himself.

IMO - it is only a matter of time before this guy goes out of business (or gets sued by someone) and everyone who accepted the voucher will be left with zero.


----------



## The X Man

So I had to cancel a trip do I wound up with about 90 points that have to be used by 11/30. I figured for this amount I try them again.  3 weeks ago signed the contract to rent the points but haven't heard anything from them I'll try myself to rent them.


----------



## RachStu

robinb said:


> Does anyone know how David is currently handling immediate reservations at Aulani for owners?  I know there was a variety of procedures when DVC first shut down, but did he finally settle on one?  Also, what procedures are in place at DVC for expiring points used at a closed resort?  My advice to @johnkerryP depends on the answer to these questions.  Thanks!



This is the text of the email that I received from David's:

"We are reaching out to you today in regards to the XXXX reservation.
As you are aware, COVID-19 has become a pandemic, and Aulani has remained closed.  As such The Disney Vacation Club should have canceled the XXXX reservation, and began the process of returning the points to your account.
If the reservation does appear active please do not cancel, as DVC will auto cancel the reservation (ensuring the points don't go into holding).
As a result we are reaching out to inquire if you would be open to helping the XXXX family during this difficult time.
Reservation #  XXXX
Check in Date:  August 26, 2020
We are asking if you would be willing to return the 70% for the reservation. The funds that are returned will go towards a Travel Credit for this family. This Travel Credit will be in the total amount that the xxxx family paid for their reservation including our commission.
If refunding the money is not feasible, would you be willing to re-rent your returned points? By re-renting your returned points the funds from the new guest will go towards the Travel Credit.
We understand that this is a big request and a situation that we have never encountered. We are hoping that we can all work together to find a viable solution.
Please let us know if you are willing to assist. If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to reach out.
We look forward to hearing from you!
Sincerely,


----------



## Bearval

Why is he not offering to refund the money instead of giving a travel credit?


----------



## CraigInPA

Bearval said:


> Why is he not offering to refund the money instead of giving a travel credit?



Because he spent the money that was his part of the commission to run his business and buy a yacht. So, 25% of the total rental price is already gone.  I think it is pretty doubtful that he has a sufficient cash reserve to come up with the already spent funds in order to issue full refunds.

You'll note that he's asking the owner to issue a refund of all funds they received, regardless of the status of the points. He doesn't say when that 30% will be paid in the event of a new reservation, or what happens if you agree to let him try to re-rent the points and he can't.


----------



## RachStu

Bearval said:


> Why is he not offering to refund the money instead of giving a travel credit?



I don't know.  I'm thoroughly sick of the guy.  I told him I expected to be paid the 30% due on check in day as per the terms of the agreement .  You can imagine the response that I got.


----------



## RoseGold

I'm pretty disgusted by this whole thread.  I guess I know where I won't be renting out my points.


----------



## Sandisw

Woohoo! Got the 30% i was owed today and now this deal is done!  Reservation still showing so I just assume the renters didn’t check in yet today.  But, glad payment came without issue.


----------



## kelly622

I have a reservation in November, it is currently listed in their confirmed reservations as my husband and I are unable to attend. He is in a high-risk category. Seems unlikely it will be re-rented as there are so many listings. I put it on my Chase Sapphire reserve card thinking it would be covered at the time, who knew they don’t cover pandemics! Are there any other avenues to go here? Total is close to $2k


----------



## Dracula

Sandisw said:


> Woohoo! Got the 30% i was owed today and now this deal is done!  Reservation still showing so I just assume the renters didn’t check in yet today.  But, glad payment came without issue.



I had the same thing, the reservation showed on the Dashboard until check-out date, but got paid the 30%. It was a newish reservation, made just three weeks before with re-rented points, so I assume the renters checked in.


----------



## Marionnette

kelly622 said:


> I have a reservation in November, it is currently listed in their confirmed reservations as my husband and I are unable to attend. He is in a high-risk category. Seems unlikely it will be re-rented as there are so many listings. I put it on my Chase Sapphire reserve card thinking it would be covered at the time, who knew they don’t cover pandemics! Are there any other avenues to go here? Total is close to $2k


The credit cards are going to view your situation differently than someone who couldn’t go because the resort wasn’t even open. So, I’m not confident that a chargeback or travel insurance claim will work. Technically, David’s is meeting the terms of the contract. They are actually showing flexibility by giving you the opportunity to recover what you paid by trying to rent the reservation out again.

Unfortunately, you’re learning that there’s a risk that comes with the bargain price of a DVC rental. I hope that the reservation rents out. Don’t be averse to dropping the price per point on the rental if David’s gives you that option. Getting some of your money back is better than nothing.


----------



## Dracula

kelly622 said:


> I have a reservation in November, it is currently listed in their confirmed reservations as my husband and I are unable to attend. He is in a high-risk category. Seems unlikely it will be re-rented as there are so many listings. I put it on my Chase Sapphire reserve card thinking it would be covered at the time, who knew they don’t cover pandemics! Are there any other avenues to go here? Total is close to $2k



Other avenues to go would include your CSR travel insurance for conditions that are covered - like an illness developed before the trip, or even a doctor's letter advising your husband to not leave the immediate area due to his health condition, without even mentioning the pandemic. Or, ask your owner to switch you to a low-stress, non-WDW location like Vero Beach or Hilton Head, and enjoy a relaxed vacation there!


----------



## starry_solo

kelly622 said:


> I have a reservation in November, it is currently listed in their confirmed reservations as my husband and I are unable to attend. He is in a high-risk category. Seems unlikely it will be re-rented as there are so many listings. I put it on my Chase Sapphire reserve card thinking it would be covered at the time, who knew they don’t cover pandemics! Are there any other avenues to go here? Total is close to $2k



tell David’s that you will take less back per point, even less than the $3 restocking fee.  Friend had to go down to $14/point (so she recovers $11/point) before one of her three reservations booked through David’s was re-rented


----------



## momincolorado

Sandisw said:


> It has not been legally challenged, and based on specific contract langue that did not exist, the unclear part was the owners part or responsibilty to David’s.
> 
> He did keep the 30%, and it seems clear given the chargeback wins he was on the hook to renters.  But, he has not gone after any renter that we know of...no info posted here at least...who didn’t return the 70% or agree to rent points again.  Some did walk away.
> 
> I think that is why his new contracts tell owners they are indeed required to return the 70% if resorts close or any other issue like that.
> 
> The interesting part was that he told owners back then that DVCM closing was technically them and they owed money back...but then told renters owners were not responsible for the decision and therefore not entitled to a refund when the contract says any actions by owners results in one,
> 
> So, basically, it played it both ways which is why many owners lost faith And won’t use him again.



I actually brought this up with them at the time. I found it fascinating that on one end (owners), they were arguing contract frustration and went as far as to say that the 70% is returnable (never mind the fact that this would mean returning all parties to pre-contract position, in other words, cash going back to the renter and that’s clearly not what David’s wanted). On the other end (renter) their argument was contract is non-refundable. 

I inquired about this because neither argument, whether the money is returnable or non-refundable, entitled them to keep the cash and start issuing worthless vouchers. I received a rather curt reply from one of David’s daughters ignoring my inquiry and reiterating that the voucher was their only offer (I then went on to do a chargeback, which was successful and last I heard owner, whose points were expiring, kept their 70% as they should have). There is no question that cash flow is an issue for David’s.

They must have known that both sides will compare notes, they read these boards just like everyone else, and that it will make them look completely untrustworthy to say the least, yet they put it out there anyway. It left me shaking my head, it was just such a poor management on their part. At a time when they did everything they could (incl deleting unfavorable social media comments etc) to control their image and reputation, they simultaneously managed, by sending these emails that were then shared on these boards, to make themselves look completely shady and incompetent.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

They are shady ! Not so sure in the incompetent - but they sure as heck can’t write a decent contract ! They have lost a lot of business with their handling of this situation ! 
I’m glad you won your chargeback !


----------



## Bowen Family

Sharing another successful chargeback outcome for a cancelled May 2020 stay at AKL. This was for a Canadian VISA. 

I submitted a fairly lengthy claim. Main points were: 1) the resort closure was not mandatory but an action of the owner’s association made on behalf of its members, hence (per contract) refund owed from David’s. 2) I made numerous attempts at a negotiated settlement, including a refund but minus David’s commission OR booking a future stay under original contract terms. 3) The new contract offered higher risk terms with no guarantee of accommodations for which I’ve already paid in full; and I wouldn’t have entered into my initial contract under these new terms. 

I was credited the full amount 10 days after filing, but told I may be contacted for additional info within 30 days (I never was) and that the refund may be rescinded up to 60 days from filing (that was yesterday). 

Nice to put this ordeal behind me and I wish other members and renters a satisfactory outcome. Hopefully one day we’ll be able to return to WDW, and I may consider private point rentals then. But no more third party brokers for our family. 

For now we are content to stay close to home and enjoy all that Ontario has to offer in the summertime! 

Be well.


----------



## quandrea

What are the consequences for David’s with all these chargebacks?  Is it a black mark on his business?


----------



## lawboy2001

Bowen Family said:


> Sharing another successful chargeback outcome for a cancelled May 2020 stay at AKL. This was for a Canadian VISA.
> 
> I submitted a fairly lengthy claim. Main points were: 1) the resort closure was not mandatory but an action of the owner’s association made on behalf of its members, hence (per contract) refund owed from David’s. 2) I made numerous attempts at a negotiated settlement, including a refund but minus David’s commission OR booking a future stay under original contract terms. 3) The new contract offered higher risk terms with no guarantee of accommodations for which I’ve already paid in full; and I wouldn’t have entered into my initial contract under these new terms.
> 
> I was credited the full amount 10 days after filing, but told I may be contacted for additional info within 30 days (I never was) and that the refund may be rescinded up to 60 days from filing (that was yesterday).
> 
> Nice to put this ordeal behind me and I wish other members and renters a satisfactory outcome. Hopefully one day we’ll be able to return to WDW, and I may consider private point rentals then. But no more third party brokers for our family.
> 
> For now we are content to stay close to home and enjoy all that Ontario has to offer in the summertime!
> 
> Be well.



I'm glad this all worked out for you!  I'm sure there will be many owners (like me) who previously used David's who will now be posting points for rent on these boards, so you will have options in the future.


----------



## Marionnette

quandrea said:


> What are the consequences for David’s with all these chargebacks?  Is it a black mark on his business?


In the short term, the business loses the revenue from the transaction. In David's case it comes down to both what they paid out to the owner AND what gets refunded to the renter. So, they get hit twice.

In the long term, enough charge backs puts the merchant at risk of paying higher fees for every credit card transaction or possibly not being able to accept credit cards at all.


----------



## FreeTime

quandrea said:


> What are the consequences for David’s with all these chargebacks?  Is it a black mark on his business?



I expect that he will not be able to cover all of the chargebacks and will file bankruptcy. When the card carrier credits a consumer and they chargeback the merchant, the merchant is obligated to pay the carrier the amount they credited the consumer. David’s is likely fighting these credit card companies saying that he continued to offer vouchers, etc. I suspect that  CFPB is involved due to the number of chargebacks.


----------



## Best Aunt

FreeTime said:


> I expect that he will not be able to cover all of the chargebacks and will file bankruptcy. When the card carrier credits a consumer and they chargeback the merchant, the merchant is obligated to pay the carrier the amount they credited the consumer. David’s is likely fighting these credit card companies saying that he continued to offer vouchers, etc. I suspect that  CFPB is involved due to the number of chargebacks.



what’s CFPB and are there negative consequences for the company if it is involved?


----------



## New Mouse

At some point it would also likely impact his credit card fees as well.  Im not sure if or when they would actually cut off his ability to take payments.


----------



## Bearval

quandrea said:


> What are the consequences for David’s with all these chargebacks?  Is it a black mark on his business?


the only " black mark" would be from owners/renters, there would be none from the credit card companies since the charge back process is what they and the merchant agree to settle disputes.


----------



## FreeTime

Best Aunt said:


> what’s CFPB and are there negative consequences for the company if it is involved?



Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They help to resolve financial claims from customers as well as monitor businesses that have had a high number of complaints and chargebacks. Their model doesn’t monitor David’s but monitors complaints received on credit cards. When they see an increase in complaints against a vendor, they investigate. Their database will allow them to see these chargebacks to David across all credit cards. As they are a government agency they don’t just see those where consumers have went to them for complaints as they can access more data if they have reason to.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

New Mouse said:


> At some point it would also likely impact his credit card fees as well.  Im not sure if or when they would actually cut off his ability to take payments.


Yes it can.  Too many charge backs and his merchant account provider could determine that his business is too risky and terminate his merchant account...i.e. he couldn't process credit cards any more.  It doesn't takes a LOT of charge backs for that to happen though.  Most merchant providers require the charge back rate (% of transactions that result in a chargeback) to be less than 1 or 2%.

Chargebacks are the LEADING cause of why merchant accounts are terminated by the provider.

There are usually 3 things a merchant account provider can do:
1)  Merchant can lose any favorable processing rates the merchant gets for processing volume.  David's likely has enough sales that he gets a discount on his credit card processing.  This raises his costs to accept credit cards
2)  Merchant account providers will often institute a reserve account for a merchant.  The merchant account provider will hold a percentage of a merchants charges in the reserve account for anywhere from 120-180 days.  usually around 1-2 months of anticipated sales volume (15-30% of gross sales)
3)  The merchant account provider can terminate the merchant account completely and they will lose the ability to process credit cards.  At this point, the merchant is STILL liable for future chargebacks.  But since, as an internet business, they can no longer sell using credit cards it usually means they are out of business.

Again, if his chargeback volume gets above 1-2% he could be at risk for any or all of these things happening.

See:  https://chargebacks911.com/terminated-processing-agreement-and-closed-merchant-account/


----------



## Brianstl

lawboy2001 said:


> I'm glad this all worked out for you!  I'm sure there will be many owners (like me) who previously used David's who will now be posting points for rent on these boards, so you will have options in the future.


I don’t think that will be an option many renters will take.  The number of owners that believed they didn’t have to refund money for reservations when the resorts were closed is going to be enough to scare off many previous renters from going that route.  For me personally it isn’t worth the risk going forward.  

At least with a point rental company I can pay using a charge card and get my money back by disputing the charge.  That option isn’t available when renting directly from the owner.

I will be just booking hotel rooms in the future.


----------



## Deb & Bill

quandrea said:


> What are the consequences for David’s with all these chargebacks?  Is it a black mark on his business?


Unless he paid cash for that yacht, he might be late in making his payments on it.


----------



## paddles

Hi everyone - I've read some of this very long thread, but haven't gotten through all of this.  

We're currently booked through David's for an Aulani trip over Christmas. I've never used them before and was really worried about booking a non-refundable trip. Lesson learned. If the world is opened up by then and the resorts are open, we'd like to go. 

The question I have is if David's goes bankrupt between now and then, will I still have the reservation at Aulani's? When I paid in full, I believe the owner got 70% and had to transfer points, with the final 30% being paid to them on the first day of the reservation. But can the owner remove those points for any reason if David's goes under?

thanks for your insights!


----------



## CarolynFH

paddles said:


> Hi everyone - I've read some of this very long thread, but haven't gotten through all of this.
> 
> We're currently booked through David's for an Aulani trip over Christmas. I've never used them before and was really worried about booking a non-refundable trip. Lesson learned. If the world is opened up by then and the resorts are open, we'd like to go.
> 
> The question I have is if David's goes bankrupt between now and then, will I still have the reservation at Aulani's? When I paid in full, I believe the owner got 70% and had to transfer points, with the final 30% being paid to them on the first day of the reservation. But can the owner remove those points for any reason if David's goes under?
> 
> thanks for your insights!


The owner could cancel the reservation if they wanted to, up to the day of checkin, due to not getting the 30% owed to them on day of checkin. Hopefully the owner would communicate with you beforehand (they have your contact information because they needed it to make the reservation in the first place) and work with you in some way, so that you wouldn’t show up at Aulani and be surprised not to have a reservation.

Hope that won’t happen to you!


----------



## paddles

thanks for your quick reply. It's tough because it's not clear if Aulani will even open up by Dec....

But I'll keep positive thoughts. I REALLY would love a trip to Hawaii, so fingers crossed


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

paddles said:


> Hi everyone - I've read some of this very long thread, but haven't gotten through all of this.
> 
> We're currently booked through David's for an Aulani trip over Christmas. I've never used them before and was really worried about booking a non-refundable trip. Lesson learned. If the world is opened up by then and the resorts are open, we'd like to go.
> 
> The question I have is if David's goes bankrupt between now and then, will I still have the reservation at Aulani's? When I paid in full, I believe the owner got 70% and had to transfer points, with the final 30% being paid to them on the first day of the reservation. But can the owner remove those points for any reason if David's goes under?
> 
> thanks for your insights!


Technically, the DVC owner can cancel the reservation at any time, whether David's goes bankrupt or not.  What is supposed to protect the reservation is the 30% of the money that David's owes the owner to guarantee that the reservation exists when you check in.  

If David's does goes bankrupt, then there is more than a fair chance the owner cancels the reservation because the owner isn't going to get paid all of the money owed to them.  It's going to depend on the individual owner.  Some may keep the reservation.  Others might cancel it to reclaim their points.  As the renter, there isn't anything that YOU can do about it.  Hopefully, if the owner cancels, they at least let you know so you aren't in a lurch to find accommodations when you arrive.  I would see about checking the status of the reservation before you get on the planes to make sure it's still valid.

Be assured that if David's does go bankrupt and you don't have a reservation, then you can file a chargeback with your credit card company and probably get a full refund through them.  This is true whether David's still exists or not.  Additionally, if Aulani/Hawaii isn't reopened by the time your trip comes around, then you should also be able to file a chargeback through your credit card and get a full cash refund through them as well. I would recommend NOT taking the "voucher" offer he has been giving renters...Cash is king!


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I agree 100% with the above - please check your resv before you leave and if the resort is not open immediately file a chargeback DO NOT take that voucher !! 
Good Luck I hope it works out for you!!


----------



## paddles

Thanks for all the responses. I called Chase about my Reserve card earlier today and they said I wouldn't get anything back if David's goes under (Chase says they don't cover insolvency of a business or the pandemic). For those who got a chargeback credit, I think it only happened when the the resort is actually closed.

Hopefully, David's stays liquid enough to last through Dec. Otherwise, I may be SOL. And I would definitely NOT take a credit voucher!!  I had a Royal Caribbean cancel my cruise in June, and I took the money and ran!


----------



## CarolynFH

paddles said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I called Chase about my Reserve card earlier today and they said I wouldn't get anything back if David's goes under (Chase says they don't cover insolvency of a business or the pandemic). For those who got a chargeback credit, I think it only happened when the the resort is actually closed.
> 
> Hopefully, David's stays liquid enough to last through Dec. Otherwise, I may be SOL. And I would definitely take a credit voucher!!  I had a Royal Caribbean cancel my cruise in June, and I took the money and ran!


I sincerely hope all goes well for you. But if Hawaii and Aulani are still closed in December, you can file a chargeback with Chase since David won’t be able to provide the accommodations you paid for. Don’t take a voucher then - if David goes bankrupt it will be worthless.


----------



## lawboy2001

Brianstl said:


> I don’t think that will be an option many renters will take.  The number of owners that believed they didn’t have to refund money for reservations when the resorts were closed is going to be enough to scare off many previous renters from going that route.  For me personally it isn’t worth the risk going forward.
> 
> At least with a point rental company I can pay using a charge card and get my money back by disputing the charge.  That option isn’t available when renting directly from the owner.
> 
> I will be just booking hotel rooms in the future.



Under the contract with David's, owners didn't have to refund the money they had been paid in the resort closure situation.  David's had to refund the renters.  

I don't disagree with your broader point though -- there will be a much less vibrant DVC point rental market in the future!


----------



## Brianstl

lawboy2001 said:


> Under the contract with David's, owners didn't have to refund the money they had been paid in the resort closure situation.  David's had to refund the renters.
> 
> I don't disagree with your broader point though -- there will be a much less vibrant DVC point rental market in the future!


I am not talking specifically about David’s here.  There was multiple owners on this site talking about About how their private contacts were non refundable ignoring the fact that no matter what you put into the contract that if you can’t make the accommodations available, the owner has defaulted on the contract. 

It should be noted that applies to owners that rented through David’s, too.  David’s just decided not to pursue that route because he was trying to not upset owners.  Without owners willing to make points available to him, he doesn’t have much of a business.  He decided that trying to limit the anger of owners by not telling them they were legally obligated to return the money for rentals during the resort closures was best for his business.


----------



## YourEveryDayAdam

paddles said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I called Chase about my Reserve card earlier today and they said I wouldn't get anything back if David's goes under (Chase says they don't cover insolvency of a business or the pandemic). For those who got a chargeback credit, I think it only happened when the the resort is actually closed.
> 
> Hopefully, David's stays liquid enough to last through Dec. Otherwise, I may be SOL. And I would definitely NOT take a credit voucher!!  I had a Royal Caribbean cancel my cruise in June, and I took the money and ran!


Honestly, I have to COMPLETELY disagree with the assessment you got from Chase's representative.  I think you were provided bad information.  EVERYONE is responsible for the transaction.  It starts with the merchant and works its way all the way back through the chain to your credit card issuer.  If the merchant can't pay then the merchant's credit card processor pays...if they can't pay (exceptionally rare...has never happened) then visa/mastercard will pay...If visa/mastercard won't pay (due to policies) then the issuer bank (your bank) will be required to pay.

From https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/deposit-refund-bankrupt-company-1267/


> Of course, if the merchant’s gone bankrupt, there may not be any money in its account to deduct. In this case, Visa, MasterCard and American Express require that the acquirer cover the loss. It’s not merely a suggestion, says Teri Charest, a spokeswoman for U.S. Bank. “Banks are bound by [these] rules and parameters established by the card networks,” she says.



I hope it doesn't get to that point, but if it does get to it...still file the chargeback.  Just don't mention anything about them going bankrupt.  Just say that you paid for a reservation and the resort is closed.  merchant isn't providing a refund.  At that point the chargeback will go to the acquiring bank (David's Bank) and it's their responsibility to collect from David's.  But they'll pay your bank who will then pay you.

I think perhaps you ended up in Chase's travel insurance department?  It's true that their travel insurance probably wouldn't cover this situation.  But you want to specifically end up in their "charge back" (sometimes called "disputes") department.  Chargebacks are another and different kind of protection that will protect you in the case that you don't receive the goods or services you paid for.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thank you so much for clarifying all that is involved with credit cards - it is very helpful to all of us !!!


----------



## VivalaDisney

Brianstl said:


> He decided that trying to limit the anger of owners by not telling them *they were legally obligated to return the money for rentals during the resort closures* was best for his business.



I disagree with this statement.  Under the signed contracts between David's and the owners, (which was prepared by David's), owners were not legally obligated to return money for rentals during the resort closures.


----------



## Dean Marino

paddles said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I called Chase about my Reserve card earlier today and they said I wouldn't get anything back if David's goes under (Chase says they don't cover insolvency of a business or the pandemic). For those who got a chargeback credit, I think it only happened when the the resort is actually closed.
> 
> Hopefully, David's stays liquid enough to last through Dec. Otherwise, I may be SOL. And I would definitely NOT take a credit voucher!!  I had a Royal Caribbean cancel my cruise in June, and I took the money and ran!


If this is indeed what Chase told you?  While I hate to say this.... CANCEL with David's.  Immediately do a chargeback BEFORE insolvency is declared .

My dear wife once had to deal with a bankrupt Employer .  So much goes WRONG, once a formal declaration is made .


----------



## Brianstl

VivalaDisney said:


> I disagree with this statement.  Under the signed contracts between David's and the owners, (which was prepared by David's), owners were not legally obligated to return money for rentals during the resort closures.


The contract clearly states that you are renting out points that represent accommodations.  When the resort was closed by Disney on your behalf (Disney closed the resort on your behalf by the power you sign over to them) those  accommodations were not available.​  The contract clearly states when that happens all funds received have to be returned.


----------



## Sandisw

Brianstl said:


> The contract clearly states that you are renting out points that represent accommodations.  When the resort was closed by Disney on your behalf (Disney closed the resort on your behalf by the power you sign over to them) those
> accommodations were not available.
> The contract clearly states when that happens all funds received have to be returned.



Many have shared that the contract with David's and the renter says that.  But, the contract with the owner says that they are to get 70% when the reservation is made and that the rest is there when check in happens...which did not, which is why David's kept it.

Seems to be inconsistent opinions by those with law experience that since David's contract with the owner is vague and it does not clearly state what happens with a resort closure....unless its a fault of the owner. Some might argue that it is also unclear if DVCM, as a third party, can be used to say it was the owner.  I started out feeling like you did and through responses from more experience legal minds, I have since changed my mind that I am not sure.

I think David's chose not to go after owners for one reason because I think it would force him to give renters back money vs. voucher.  Clearly, the renters were entitled to a cash refund if he wants to claim the owner was at fault...which is what he would have to do to hold them liable for returning the 70%.


----------



## VivalaDisney

Brianstl said:


> The contract clearly states that you are renting out points that represent accommodations.  When the resort was closed by Disney on your behalf (Disney closed the resort on your behalf by the power you sign over to them) those
> accommodations were not available.
> The contract clearly states when that happens all funds received have to be returned.



The pre-COVID contract between David's and the owner does not "clearly state" that when the resorts close, the owners have to return all funds.  For contracts of adhesion especially, the rule of _contra proferentem_ should be applied.  In other words, ambiguous wording of the contract is construed against the drafter.  This contract was written by David's, and offered to owners on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.  I'm not a Canadian attorney, but I understand this rule applies there too.


----------



## Brianstl

VivalaDisney said:


> The pre-COVID contract between David's and the owner does not "clearly state" that when the resorts close, the owners have to return all funds.  For contracts of adhesion especially, the rule of _contra proferentem_ should be applied.  In other words, ambiguous wording of the contract is construed against the drafter.  This contract was written by David's, and offered to owners on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.  I'm not a Canadian attorney, but I understand this rule applies there too.


The person renting out the points is unable to provide the accommodations.  When you can’t provide the goods or services promised in the contract you have defaulted.  You don’t get to keep the money.  Plus the contract that owners signed with David’s clearly states....

"The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs."

Before you state the DVC owner didn’t cancel the reservation resulting in the reservation not being honored, legally the DVC owner did cancel the reservation.  Disney was acting legally on your behalf as the property owner when they canceled the reservations through the power you assigned them when you bought your share of the property.


----------



## AZMermaid

I just wonder what percent of David’s customers are onto his games. Obviously we on this thread are, but we are probably a small fraction of his clientele. I‘d bet there are a good number of people out there thrilled (okay, satisfied) with his voucher... until he can’t rebook them. I dont think many people overall are considering charging back because of the voucher.


----------



## CraigInPA

Brianstl said:


> The contract clearly states that you are renting out points that represent accommodations.  When the resort was closed by Disney on your behalf (Disney closed the resort on your behalf by the power you sign over to them) those
> accommodations were not available.
> The contract clearly states when that happens all funds received have to be returned.



This was hammered to death in the first 2000 posts of this thread. The way the contract was written is that you were renting points as expressed in a room reservation. While the room reservation may not have been possible to fulfill on dates when the resort was closed, the underlying points did not disappear.


----------



## paddles

I haven't read the first 2000 posts, but what I'm gathering is that the owner can keep the 70% and also have their points returned back to them if the resort is closed?  And the renter gets nothing but a voucher that is worthless if David's goes under. yeah - this sux being on the renting end.


----------



## Brianstl

CraigInPA said:


> This was hammered to death in the first 2000 posts of this thread. The way the contract was written is that you were renting points as expressed in a room reservation. While the room reservation may not have been possible to fulfill on dates when the resort was closed, the underlying points did not disappear.


The owner was unable to make the points available. The points were returned to the owner.  Florida like every other state has an obligation of good faith and fair dealing expectation that all contracts have to operate under. Florida rental law clearly states that this obligation applies to all rental contracts in the state. If this ever actually goes to court there is no way the owners get to keep the money for canceled reservations.


----------



## Marionnette

paddles said:


> I haven't read the first 2000 posts, but what I'm gathering is that the owner can keep the 70% and also have their points returned back to them if the resort is closed?  And the renter gets nothing but a voucher that is worthless if David's goes under. yeah - this sux being on the renting end.


You should go back and read the owners’ side to get a balanced perspective. A lot of owners got screwed in the process as well. But while renters had the option to do a chargeback and get all of their money back, a lot of owners did not get their points back, or did not get them back in an useable form. Points have a finite life. Many points ended up expiring as a result of the closure and DVC did not do anything to make it right for quite a few owners.

I was lucky. My “renter” is my niece. I was able to contact her when the writing was on the wall and we made a back up plan that allowed me to cancel her reservation, bank my points forward for a year before that window of opportunity closed, and reschedule her for this fall. I would have done the same for a private rental.  But David’s keeps a wall between owners and renter. He kept them from communicating with one another and he refused to allow owners to reschedule for their renters. And while he asked for the return of that 70% payment, he refused to pass the refunded money to the renter.

Yes, it “sux” to be one of his renters thru all of this.  But being an owner has been no bed of roses, either.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Well you must not have any skin in this as the contract clearly states it’s under Canadian law. Again read this thread - this horse has been beaten to death buried burned and then some !!


----------



## starry_solo

So far, it looks like the second of my friend's three DVC reservations with David's has been rented (the first one was a week or two ago, the second one appears to have been within the past day or two since the reservation itself is not on the dedicated reservations site).

No luck with the third reservation (4 nights at VGF) because the owner hasn't contacted David's back.  When all is said and done, my friend is recovering about half of what she paid out, which is better than nothing   She had to lower the price down to $14/point (so she recovers $11/point and I think paid $18 or $19/point when the reservations were booked at 11 months out).  I'm glad she listened to me when I told her to tell David's that she'd lower the price she wanted back cuz, some money is better than no money


----------



## WDWEPCOT

FYI remember David’s kept his commission kept the 30% too and as my rental was Aulani he could have cared less no offer of a voucher here - he was just going to keep the cash! So yes I did a chargeback 
Yes Owners were hurt in this and renters but renters had the option of doing a chargeback - Owners didn’t who had points that expired !


----------



## Brianstl

WDWEPCOT said:


> Well you must not have any skin in this as the contract clearly states it’s under Canadian law. Again read this thread - this horse has been beaten to death buried burned and then some !!


The contract can state Canadian law applies but the property being rented is in Florida and if any of this would go to court Florida law would most likely apply.   If Canadian law would apply in Canada there is a duty of honest performance implied in all contracts regardless of what the contract states.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

No not all mine was Hawaii - not all DVC is in FL 
Glad your all over this 6 months later - I’m sure your expert advise will be most helpful !!


----------



## Brianstl

WDWEPCOT said:


> No not all mine was Hawaii - not all DVC is in FL
> Glad your all over this 6 months later - I’m sure your expert advise will be most helpful !!


Hawaii has the same implied obligation of good faith and fair dealing for all contracts no matter what people want to think the contract might say or what it even actually may say.  So even if owners are right that the contract says what they want it to say, it would be an unconscionable provision.  The question is it worth the cost of actually taking it to court. For most renters it is probably not worth the money litigation would cost.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Are you renters taking David’s to court ? Why are you wanting to go after Owners you paid David’s - I could understand David wanting time try to go after Owners with his worthless frustrated contracts that he is playing both sides on - but nit sure I see renters going after Owners because you are forgetting it’s a 3 party contract and I won my chargeback against David’s not the Owner - you may want to look into Rental law it’s been discussed to death in this thread


----------



## paddles

This thread has gotten really ugly. Not sure why. I think we can all agree that it's not a good situation for anyone. 

I was just saying above that if an owner doesn't have expiring points, AND David's goes under, they have the benefit of keeping 70% and their points. Renters, on the other hand, would have nothing.  And absolutely for the owners with expiring points, it would be tough situation as well.   

This whole thing has made me learn my lesson. I will happily pay hotel rack rates since I have recourse there - I feel helpless (as we all do) currently. That's what I typically do, and stupidly in 2020, I thought it could be a win-win to rent points. Reading this thread has really made me feel bad about the whole thing.


----------



## Brianstl

WDWEPCOT said:


> Are you renters taking David’s to court ? Why are you wanting to go after Owners you paid David’s - I could understand David wanting time try to go after Owners with his worthless frustrated contracts that he is playing both sides on - but nit sure I see renters going after Owners because you are forgetting it’s a 3 party contract and I won my chargeback against David’s not the Owner - you may want to look into Rental law it’s been discussed to death in this thread


Who said David’s is blameless?

I have looked into the rentals laws of Florida and even had a friend of mine who is a lawyer look at the contracts when I thought my reservation might be canceled to explore my options if that happened.  Why don’t you look into Florida’s rental laws and see legally what is supposed to happen to that 70% the owner receives upfront.  Hint, the owner isn’t legally allowed to spend the money or commingle the money with their own funds.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

If David’s goes under all is not lost - in this thread someone went to a LOT of trouble on several occasions to explain the whole process of credit cards in regards to a business that goes bankrupt- please read the thread if you are concerned 
Also in this very long thread it is discussed doing a chargeback After you took the voucher - you may wish to read up on that one too 
Credit card chargebacks are from date of expected services in most cases - all covered in the excellent piece posted earlier 

Thank you for referring me to bone up on contract law but alas I have no need to do such things as the saying goes Been There Done That Bought The shirt - I appreciate your attempts to assist but my ships sailed months ago - just so you know I have horses in both races as owner who is renting out points and being screwed over by David’s and as renter who David’s tried to screw. You will gain no sympathy from me - this man and his company care none for his customers or clients or the word of law
One final note - there are MANY excellent Owners (and renters) on this thread please do not make blind assumptions that Owners are just taking 70% and their points and running - it is NOT the case ! It does a major disservice to everyone! 

Renters - please don’t feel all is lost - please read this thread - you may find some help - 

Yes this thread has been ugly and yes this thread has been super awesome ! Take the good with the bad! Life is not all rainbows and sunshine ! Sorry if I upset you!!


----------



## meryll83

Very pleased to say it's finally my turn to report some good news on my chargeback!

We were due to travel to Disneyland from the UK back in April, and rented points through David's to stay at VGC. After the resort closed and chaos ensued, we eventually raised a chargeback later that month after initially trying to get a refund from David's, being asked to wait for the voucher, and then being very disappointed when we saw what the terms of the voucher actually were.
My bank (based in the UK) initiated the chargeback fairly quickly and returned the funds to my account, with the caveat that David's had 45 days to challenge this...
About a week before the 45 days were up, my bank let me know David's had challenged my claim, based on vouchers being an acceptable alternative to a cash refund under Canadian law... 

However, my bank weren't satisfied that evidence had been provided by David's to validate this, so advised they had now given David's another 45 days to provide this.
Cue more waiting, but yesterday that 45 days was up, and no further contact was made by David's, so it's good to hear that those returned funds are now permanently mine! 

Good luck to everyone else still going through the process, or trying to work things out with David's or their renters/owners!

As a sort of related aside... I may end up with some of my own DVC points that I am unable to use before they're due to expire, so might have to consider renting them out. I think I 'd still feel more comfortable using a firm with expertise rather than doing this independently, so have there been any other DVC rental companies that have handled the pandemic situation well, and that others would recommend using? (Not sure whether recommendations are allowed on the boards, so please feel free to PM me if not!)


----------



## Bowen Family

meryll83 said:


> Very pleased to say it's finally my turn to report some good news on my chargeback!
> 
> We were due to travel to Disneyland from the UK back in April, and rented points through David's to stay at VGC. After the resort closed and chaos ensued, we eventually raised a chargeback later that month after initially trying to get a refund from David's, being asked to wait for the voucher, and then being very disappointed when we saw what the terms of the voucher actually were.
> My bank (based in the UK) initiated the chargeback fairly quickly and returned the funds to my account, with the caveat that David's had 45 days to challenge this...
> About a week before the 45 days were up, my bank let me know David's had challenged my claim, based on vouchers being an acceptable alternative to a cash refund under Canadian law...
> 
> However, my bank weren't satisfied that evidence had been provided by David's to validate this, so advised they had now given David's another 45 days to provide this.
> Cue more waiting, but yesterday that 45 days was up, and no further contact was made by David's, so it's good to hear that those returned funds are now permanently mine!
> 
> Good luck to everyone else still going through the process, or trying to work things out with David's or their renters/owners!
> 
> As a sort of related aside... I may end up with some of my own DVC points that I am unable to use before they're due to expire, so might have to consider renting them out. I think I 'd still feel more comfortable using a firm with expertise rather than doing this independently, so have there been any other DVC rental companies that have handled the pandemic situation well, and that others would recommend using? (Not sure whether recommendations are allowed on the boards, so please feel free to PM me if not!)



I live in Ontario where David’s operates and in researching my options I discovered that our provincial government did in fact change the Ontario Travel Industry Act along these lines as a sort of lifeline to the travel industry following COVID. 

Pre-COVID, if your prepaid accommodations or services were unavailable through no fault of your own, you had the OPTION of accepting a vendor’s proposed voucher/credit, or receiving a full refund. 

As a temporary COVID-related measure, the government allowed travel industry vendors (agents/hotels/airlines/etc) sole discretion to offer credits/vouchers to affected customers. 

I think David’s took this temporary measure a step too far when they additionally inserted a clause that would allow them to modify or cancel the credit without any recourse to the consumer. Just speculation on my part, but absent that red flag, I suspect I would have lost my own chargeback claim. But I singled out that bad faith clause in my submission, and was successful without any apparent defence/rebuttal from David’s.


----------



## Sandisw

Brianstl said:


> The owner was unable to make the points available. The points were returned to the owner.  Florida like every other state has an obligation of good faith and fair dealing expectation that all contracts have to operate under. Florida rental law clearly states that this obligation applies to all rental contracts in the state. If this ever actually goes to court there is no way the owners get to keep the money for canceled reservations.



However, the contract doesn’t specifically say the 70% is owed back,  The owner may simply be on the hook to provide the same points to the broker for renting again.

Again, its been gone back and forth and given that his new contracts are specific, I venture that his legal team helped him realize the flaw and it’s why we have not heard of owners being sued by him,

He didn’t want the contract frustrated exactly because then he had to give renters the cash.  

I do agree that unless a court steps in to determine exactly what was rented and what was not, we can all speculate.  But, I do not think any longer the return of the funds was a given, especially since the owner did not receive all the funds owed.


----------



## Bearval

Bowen Family said:


> I live in Ontario where David’s operates and in researching my options I discovered that our provincial government did in fact change the Ontario Travel Industry Act along these lines as a sort of lifeline to the travel industry following COVID.
> 
> Pre-COVID, if your prepaid accommodations or services were unavailable through no fault of your own, you had the OPTION of accepting a vendor’s proposed voucher/credit, or receiving a full refund.
> 
> As a temporary COVID-related measure, the government allowed travel industry vendors (agents/hotels/airlines/etc) sole discretion to offer credits/vouchers to affected customers.
> 
> I think David’s took this temporary measure a step too far when they additionally inserted a clause that would allow them to modify or cancel the credit without any recourse to the consumer. Just speculation on my part, but absent that red flag, I suspect I would have lost my own chargeback claim. But I singled out that bad faith clause in my submission, and was successful without any apparent defence/rebuttal from David’s.


I would think that the changes the OTIA made might only be enforceable in Ontario or Canada.    This would be why most if not all of the charge backs from the US have been successful.


----------



## CraigInPA

Brianstl said:


> The contract can state Canadian law applies but the property being rented is in Florida and if any of this would go to court Florida law would most likely apply.   If Canadian law would apply in Canada there is a duty of honest performance implied in all contracts regardless of what the contract states.



You are clearly not a lawyer. 

When venue and applicable law are specified in a contract, you can't just pop into your local courthouse and expect them to invalidate both of these in favor of having the case heard in that courthouse. If both parties agreed to the venue and applicable law change, it *might* happen. But, I don't see any small claims judge accepting a case involving a company in Canada and litigants located anywhere else on the planet. You'd have to go to federal court, where the cost to file would exceed the total value of any rental.


----------



## Brianstl

CraigInPA said:


> You are clearly not a lawyer.
> 
> When venue and applicable law are specified in a contract, you can't just pop into your local courthouse and expect them to invalidate both of these in favor of having the case heard in that courthouse. If both parties agreed to the venue and applicable law change, it *might* happen. But, I don't see any small claims judge accepting a case involving a company in Canada and litigants located anywhere else on the planet. You'd have to go to federal court, where the cost to file would exceed the total value of any rental.


This involves the rental of real estate.  In those cases 99.99999% of the time jurisdiction and venue is determined by where the real estate is located regardless of what the contract states.  Just because something is written into a contract doesn’t make it so.


----------



## CraigInPA

Brianstl said:


> This involves the rental of real estate.  In those cases 99.99999% of the time jurisdiction and venue is determined by where the real estate is located regardless of what the contract states.  Just because something is written into a contract doesn’t make it so.



You're clearly not a lawyer. Contract terms, in general, govern unless the resulting agreement is illegal.


----------



## Brianstl

CraigInPA said:


> You're clearly not a lawyer. Contract terms, in general, govern unless the resulting agreement is illegal.


You can't transfer jurisdiction in a rental contract from the state the immovable property is located in to another state much less another country.  Choice of forum and choice of law clauses are worthless because the laws governing are those in the state where the property is located at the time the right to use that property is created.

Also, I never said I was a lawyer.


----------



## Dixie1337

I got an email saying that someone wants to take over my december AKL reservation.  I'm so happy I could cry!  Now I'm just waiting and hoping the owner follows through.  I'm nervous AF.  If they change their mind about re-assigning the reservation I'm out of options.  If they follow through I'll receive a cash refund less a $3 per point fee, which I think is fair.


----------



## VivalaDisney

Brianstl said:


> You can't transfer jurisdiction in a rental contract from the state the immovable property is located in to another state much less another country.  Choice of forum and choice of law clauses are worthless because the laws governing are those in the state where the property is located at the time the right to use that property is created.
> 
> Also, I never said I was a lawyer.


DVC points can be used for resort stays at DVC properties in three states.  DVC points can be used for cruises; the ones showing on DVC's website depart from seven US states and territories, and at least five countries.  Under your knowledge of jurisdiction for contracts involving a vacation club, which state or country should govern for a reservation at HHI?  At Aulani?  And where would jurisdiction be when DVC points are used for a reservation on a cruise which departs England and arrives in Spain, when the points owner lives in Illinois, the points renter lives in Missouri, the DVC points are from an Aulani contract, and David's is in Canada?  There is a reason jurisdiction is set forth in contracts.


----------



## Brianstl

VivalaDisney said:


> DVC points can be used for resort stays at DVC properties in three states.  DVC points can be used for cruises; the ones showing on DVC's website depart from seven US states and territories, and at least five countries.  Under your knowledge of jurisdiction for contracts involving a vacation club, which state or country should govern for a reservation at HHI?  At Aulani?  And where would jurisdiction be when DVC points are used for a reservation on a cruise which departs England and arrives in Spain, when the points owner lives in Illinois, the points renter lives in Missouri, the DVC points are from an Aulani contract, and David's is in Canada?  There is a reason jurisdiction is set forth in contracts.


The original David's contract stated you are renting points that represent accommodations at a specific location in Florida.  With those contracts you aren't renting a cruise. The contract that the owner purchased states the owner is buying a real estate interest.  The owner is renting out their real estate interest.  That interest is immovable property.  

Disney might call it Disney Vacation Club, but owners don't own a club membership.  It is a timeshare and the owner bought, as stated in their contract, real estate.  The owner pays taxes on that real estate.  The owner is renting out use of that real estate.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Nope. I bought a time share I suggest you research time shares 
I DO NOT own the real estate - DVC does I purchased an interest in it which is only good for a stated number if years per my contract with DVC 
If I rent my points my contract with David’s states the renter is renting a points which represent a reservation - it never stated real estate . 
I’m not really sure what your point is with all of this but I would like to expand on one thing stated 
Yup just because something is written into a contract doesn’t make it so - per Chase non refundable - you can’t take someone’s money and not give them the product or service regardless of the contract  - you are correct there!!


----------



## Sandisw

Lets remember that this thread has gone back and forth many times in what an owners obligation was when resorts were closed and unless David’s chose to take an owner to court to force them to return funds, and had won, everything else is pure speculation,

Now that resorts are open, other than Aulani and VGC, it’s more about owners and renters dealing with people uncomfortable or unable to go.


----------



## Dean Marino

Boy, with all of this?  Glad we bailed on any renting....

We donated our points, to a lovely family within driving distance of WDW.  We feel pretty good, no one can sue us, and WDW does not get to steal those points for rental .


----------



## WDWEPCOT

That was very nice of you I’m glad you were able to do that !


----------



## NARM Again

I just found this thread today as I’ve been and have read quite  a few pages but haven’t had the time to go through everything.  In Feb I rented my points for a reservation in December but the Renter has said that they do not want to go.  David’s have stated that they are looking for someone to take over the reservation but I’m thinking about cancelling and returning the 70% but only it benefits the Renter.

Renters - how much were you offered back if the Owner cancelled and returned the 70%?

Owners - how long did you have to return the 70% and were there any additional fees?


----------



## starry_solo

NARM Again said:


> I just found this thread today as I’ve been and have read quite  a few pages but haven’t had the time to go through everything.  In Feb I rented my points for a reservation in December but the Renter has said that they do not want to go.  David’s have stated that they are looking for someone to take over the reservation but I’m thinking about cancelling and returning the 70% but only it benefits the Renter.
> 
> Renters - how much were you offered back if the Owner cancelled and returned the 70%?
> 
> Owners - how long did you have to return the 70% and were there any additional fees?



AFAIK from reading these hundreds of pages, renters are only offered the voucher.  But then again, none of the owners have cancelled the reservation as I recall.


----------



## Sandisw

NARM Again said:


> I just found this thread today as I’ve been and have read quite  a few pages but haven’t had the time to go through everything.  In Feb I rented my points for a reservation in December but the Renter has said that they do not want to go.  David’s have stated that they are looking for someone to take over the reservation but I’m thinking about cancelling and returning the 70% but only it benefits the Renter.
> 
> Renters - how much were you offered back if the Owner cancelled and returned the 70%?
> 
> Owners - how long did you have to return the 70% and were there any additional fees?



As mentioned, the process was a voucher.  He has given renters cash back minus a fee in order to Re rent reservations now resorts are open.

I would contact him and say you are willing to cancel and return the funds .on the condition the bulk goes  to the renter. 

You do have the renters information so I would CC them as part of the email.  Worst he says is no and you then decide to stick with it or return and walk away.


----------



## dragonflymom

starry_solo said:


> But then again, none of the owners have cancelled the reservation as I recall.



The reason why owners here do not cancel is that you would be violating contract terms if you cancel unilaterally (even if you return the 70%) since your obligation is to make the room available on the reservation date(s).  If you want your points back, then work with David's and the renters to see whether they can release you from your obligations.  Otherwise, the option of re-renting is definitely worth exploring since December is a popular time and depending on your resort and room type, it may be easily re-rentable.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> As mentioned, the process was a voucher.  He has given renters cash back minus a fee in order to Re rent reservations now resorts are open.
> 
> I would contact him and say you are willing to cancel and return the funds .on the condition the bulk goes  to the renter.
> 
> You do have the renters information so I would CC them as part of the email.  Worst he says is no and you then decide to stick with it or return and walk away.


I would contact him and the renter and let him know you would be willing to cancel the rental only if the renter was given a full refund and not a voucher and t h at you would not be held liable for anything.  This would put him on the spot to do the right thing for everyone involved not just his own best interests.


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> As mentioned, the process was a voucher.  He has given renters cash back minus a fee in order to Re rent reservations now resorts are open.
> 
> I would contact him and say you are willing to cancel and return the funds .on the condition the bulk goes  to the renter.
> 
> You do have the renters information so I would CC them as part of the email.  Worst he says is no and you then decide to stick with it or return and walk away.



Has any renter actually had their owner cancel on them *since the resorts re-opened*?  I would love to know what the outcome of that was (not just a bunch of speculation but actual first hand experience!)


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> Has any renter actually had their owner cancel on them *since the resorts re-opened*?  I would love to know what the outcome of that was (not just a bunch of speculation but actual first hand experience!)



No reports of an owner who has offered that option to the broker.  Plenty of owners who have agreed to change names for confirmed reservations for extra funds in order to give the renter some cash back.

I am going to assume that most owners want to keep the cash and not the Points.


----------



## starry_solo

I'm sure that David's would still charge the commission as well.  So, he can offer a return of part of the funds, but not all...


----------



## Dixie1337

starry_solo said:


> I'm sure that David's would still charge the commission as well.  So, he can offer a return of part of the funds, but not all...



this kind of speculation is exactly what isn’t helpful and just ends up confusing everyone


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> this kind of speculation is exactly what isn’t helpful and just ends up confusing everyone



I think the fact that everything he has done, including allowing renters who just don’t want to go to list their reservation...with an owners approval..and receive cash back minus a $3/pt fee and his voucher system, I think it’s clear David’s will not agree to anything that doesn’t include him keeping his fee,


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> I think the fact that everything he has done, including allowing renters who just don’t want to go to list their reservation...with an owners approval..and receive cash back minus a $3/pt fee and his voucher system, I think it’s clear David’s will not agree to anything that doesn’t include him keeping his fee,



you have no idea though and loss of accommodations as a result of an action by the owner is covered in the contract.  People read these posts and take them as gospel.  People are still claiming the only thing renters can get when reservations are rerented is a voucher.  This thread would be way shorter and more useful if people could stick to facts


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> you have no idea though and loss of accommodations as a result of an action by the owner is covered in the contract.  People read these posts and take them as gospel.  People are still claiming the only thing renters can get when reservations are rerented is a voucher.  This thread would be way shorter and more useful if people could stick to facts



Based on the number of owners and renters who have posted here with their specific experiences, I would say we pretty much have lots of facts,

You are correct...we have no first hand knowledge of any renter getting all their cash back, except for a charge back....

You are correct that no renter has posted here that they had an owner cancel a reservation they intended to use....more likely because owners are not doing it.

However, there are plenty of posts that have been shared by renters that now that resorts were open they have been given two options...voucher for full amount or cash back minus a $3/restocking fee...if it is re rented And an owner has agreed to allow it, So, I am not sure why you say that only vouchers is being promoted,

But, it is clear that there is overwhelming evidence that everything David’s has done, has involved him keeping his share.

ETA: and as an owner who just finished a contract with him, I feel I do have a good handle of what my options were if my renters had wanted out.


----------



## Marionnette

Dixie1337 said:


> you have no idea though and loss of accommodations as a result of an action by the owner is covered in the contract.  People read these posts and take them as gospel.  People are still claiming the only thing renters can get when reservations are rerented is a voucher.  This thread would be way shorter and more useful if people could stick to facts


Well, if you can find anywhere that a renter has indicated that David’s gave them a full cash refund, I’d like to see it. Post after post in this thread, on other disboards forum, on David’s own Facebook page and on other DVC message boards, either by owners or by renters, have said virtually the same thing: renters are either getting vouchers or they are given a partial refund if the owner can re-rent the points to another renter.  I don’t think that many people across a variety of forums would echo the same responses if there weren’t an element of truth to it.

But you go ahead and believe what you want to believe.


----------



## mjr0483

dsnymnkyuncle said:


> I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal.  And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed.  And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it.  David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit.  Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have.  This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points.  The yellow highlight was in the original.
> 
> _"*if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed* we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.
> 
> To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
> In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)_
> 
> 
> _The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:   (_1-6 deleted by me_)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner*
> 
> 
> 
> _When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club *you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association membe*r. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.
> 
> *Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."*_



I used David's to rent my points in two small transactions for checking in on 10/24/20 and 11/15.
Why would David's hold the remaining 30% payment? The only reason I see Davids doing this is if he refunded the renter and returned the points to me to recoup.

What happens if the renter doesn't show up for the reservation? What happens to my points?
I guess I have to read up on all the scenarios.
David's hasn't reached out to me as there is still some time before these rentals.


----------



## starry_solo

mjr0483 said:


> I used David's to rent my points in two small transactions for checking in on 10/24/20 and 11/15.
> Why would David's hold the remaining 30% payment? The only reason I see Davids doing this is if he refunded the renter and returned the points to me to recoup.
> 
> What happens if the renter doesn't show up for the reservation? What happens to my points?
> I guess I have to read up on all the scenarios.
> David's hasn't reached out to me as there is still some time before these rentals.



He holds the remaining portion to make sure that the owner doesn't do anything to cancel the reservation.

If the renter doesn't show up for the reservation, the points are lost.  You, as the owner, should get the remaining 30% owed to you on the check-in date.


----------



## RachStu

mjr0483 said:


> I used David's to rent my points in two small transactions for checking in on 10/24/20 and 11/15.
> Why would David's hold the remaining 30% payment? The only reason I see Davids doing this is if he refunded the renter and returned the points to me to recoup.
> 
> What happens if the renter doesn't show up for the reservation? What happens to my points?
> I guess I have to read up on all the scenarios.
> David's hasn't reached out to me as there is still some time before these rentals.



You won’t receive the 30% if it’s a booking at a resort which is closed. If the resort is open and the renter simply doesn’t go then you still receive your 30%. In that instance your points will be “lost” but you will have been paid for them.


----------



## mjr0483

RachStu said:


> You won’t receive the 30% if it’s a booking at a resort which is closed. If the resort is open and the renter simply doesn’t go then you still receive your 30%. In that instance your points will be “lost” but you will have been paid for them.



I feel bad about the entire situation. Both of the people he rented points to are US based, so hopefully they still intend to go. Checking my dashboard, both OKW reservations still say booked.
I am decided today I am going 11/1 to 11/8 at a 2 Bedroom at Bonnet Creek.


----------



## mjr0483

Has anyone contacted the renter directly? I know David's said don't do this. It is just in poor taste or against the contract?


----------



## Sandisw

mjr0483 said:


> Has anyone contacted the renter directly? I know David's said don't do this. It is just in poor taste or against the contract?



Technically, you probably should not.  I just finished a rental with him.  I got the 30% day of check in and I assume renters went.  It stayed as a reservation on my dashboard until the day after check out.

The problem with contacting them is that if you and the renter decide on something outside your contract, David’s would still need to approve, unless the resorts are closed, and then I think renter and owner may have upper hand.

IMO, if the reservations are at open resorts, I would not initiate any changes.


----------



## mjr0483

Sandisw said:


> Technically, you probably should not.  I just finished a rental with him.  I got the 30% day of check in and I assume renters went.  It stayed as a reservation on my dashboard until the day after check out.
> 
> The problem with contacting them is that if you and the renter decide on something outside your contract, David’s would still need to approve, unless the resorts are closed, and then I think renter and owner may have upper hand.
> 
> IMO, if the reservations are at open resorts, I would not initiate any changes.



I am not making any changes to the reservations. From reading some of these posts it seems like David's is doing right by some and wrong by others.
I did reach out to David's to check the status of my upcoming rentals. I have the ability to refund the original renter if Davids is going to be slimy about it and offer a voucher. I just want to know so I can make my 10/31 banking deadline.


----------



## Sandisw

mjr0483 said:


> I am not making any changes to the reservations. From reading some of these posts it seems like David's is doing right by some and wrong by others.
> I did reach out to David's to check the status of my upcoming rentals. I have the ability to refund the original renter if Davids is going to be slimy about it and offer a voucher. I just want to know so I can make my 10/31 banking deadline.



Keep us posted if you get any info different than what has been reported for your renters, assuming they want out!


----------



## mjr0483

Sandisw said:


> Keep us posted if you get any info different than what has been reported for your renters, assuming they want out!



I emailed Davids to see if they had heard anything.
They did respond timely and that both parties are intending to go.
Hopefully all will proceed as planned.


----------



## AquaDame

mjr0483 said:


> I emailed Davids to see if they had heard anything.
> They did respond timely and that both parties are intending to go.
> Hopefully all will proceed as planned.



That is very kind of  you!

I reached out as a renter over two weeks ago but the owners have not responded to David's at all, which was surprising. I expected a "no" though I was hopeful, but I guess I don't even get that.


----------



## AaronEuth

Hopefully the mods will allow this as a word of warning for others, even though it was the other point rental website.

If you rented out your points, and ended up returning your funds, make sure to get an email confirmation when they receive and deposit the check.  Otherwise, two months later, their records may show that you never returned the money.  Luckily between your own bank statements, and confirmation emails between yourself and their accounting, ironically the same supervisor who claims it was not received now, the check was confirmed received and deposited 2 months ago.

Keeping records obviously applies to both major rental agencies, but hopefully the above gives you an idea of the level of disorganization of the rental company.

Edit: received a very polite apology email after I responded with my documentation.   All good.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

Thankfully you kept your records! What a nightmare !! I hope you providing this puts an end to it


----------



## zebsterama

We have rented directly from owners many times, without any issues.

We are now in the process of buying resale -- awaiting ROFR -- via GF.

The contract is loaded, so if it comes through, we will likely want to rent our points.

I was thinking of using David's service, purely out of convenience, but from what I'm reading -- that's not happening.

In a word .....WOW!

On a side note -- I remember when the Rent/Trade board rules changed (many moons/years ago). This, just so happened to coincide with David's sponsorship. Let's just say ... the changes, at the time, were quite controversial. Isn't Karma grand.


----------



## AquaDame

zebsterama said:


> On a side note -- I remember when the Rent/Trade board rules changed (many moons/years ago). This, just so happened to coincide with David's sponsorship. Let's just say ... the changes, at the time, were quite controversial. Isn't Karma grand.



FWIW the problem with my rental with David's isn't him, its the owner who did not so much as respond to his request to re-rent the points to someone who wants to go that week. I think Id have a great shot as the only other option during that week is AKL at $18/point, mine was for a studio at Boardwalk and I was planning on doing $14/point. They apologized but there isn't any way they can help when the OWNER is the silent party. I honestly believe I would have risked this problem renting from anyone anywhere at this point.


----------



## New Mouse

AquaDame said:


> FWIW the problem with my rental with David's isn't him, its the owner who did not so much as respond to his request to re-rent the points to someone who wants to go that week. I think Id have a great shot as the only other option during that week is AKL at $18/point, mine was for a studio at Boardwalk and I was planning on doing $14/point. They apologized but there isn't any way they can help when the OWNER is the silent party. I honestly believe I would have risked this problem renting from anyone anywhere at this point.




It could be a result of how hes treated owners throughout this.  Many cant be bothered and are content just walking away.


----------



## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> It could be a result of how hes treated owners throughout this.  Many cant be bothered and are content just walking away.



This is what I think for some owners who are not responding.  It is very possible they had more then one rental and those other experiences have them deciding to just not deal with the company.

Or, they have lost trust in him and in no way want to become involved in a different contract, even though he says terms are the same. I know I would not have done it.


----------



## robinb

AquaDame said:


> FWIW the problem with my rental with David's isn't him, its the owner who did not so much as respond to his request to re-rent the points to someone who wants to go that week. I think Id have a great shot as the only other option during that week is AKL at $18/point, mine was for a studio at Boardwalk and I was planning on doing $14/point. They apologized but there isn't any way they can help when the OWNER is the silent party. I honestly believe I would have risked this problem renting from anyone anywhere at this point.


Yours is the second story I have read today about DVC members ghosting renters and not replying to David.  I'm very sorry that you're both going through this.  You would think that people would have human decency, but I guess not.  A private owner may have ghosted you as well, but at least you would have vetted the person renting to you and you would have had their contact information.



New Mouse said:


> It could be a result of how hes treated owners throughout this.  Many cant be bothered and are content just walking away.


... with ALL of their money.  Don't blame David for people being crappy.  Face it, some DVC members don't care about the renters.  They got theirs and just don't care except to have their hand out for the remaining 30%.


----------



## Sandisw

robinb said:


> Yours is the second story I have read today about DVC members ghosting renters and not replying to David.  I'm very sorry that you're both going through this.  You would think that people would have human decency, but I guess not.  A private owner may have ghosted you as well, but at least you would have vetted the person renting to you and you would have had their contact information.
> 
> ... with ALL of their money.  Don't blame David for people being crappy.  Face it, some DVC members don't care about the renters.  They got theirs and just don't care except to have their hand out for the remaining 30%.



Well, some owners offered renters money back and David’s said no many times,

So, yeah, David’s has done shady things to both renters and owners and has not been willing to work with owners who offered him alternative solutions that would have helped renters,

Honestly, maybe David’s isn’t being upfront either and is no longer wanting to list so many confirmed reservations so blaming it on the owner,  No way for a renter to know and I would not put it past him.


----------



## robinb

Sandisw said:


> Well, some owners offered renters money back and David’s said no many times,
> 
> So, yeah, David’s has done shady things to both renters and owners and has not been willing to work with owners who offered him alternative solutions that would have helped renters,
> 
> Honestly, maybe David’s isn’t being upfront either and is no longer wanting to list so many confirmed reservations so blaming it on the owner,  No way for a renter to know and I would not put it past him.


I don’t disagree that he has done some shady things.  However, I think it’s an overreach saying that he is not attempting to contact members to re-rent vacations and saying that owners are not  replying. There are plenty of vacations available on his website and @AquaDame says that her dates were very likely to sell.  It really doesn’t make any sense.


----------



## starry_solo

AquaDame said:


> FWIW the problem with my rental with David's isn't him, its the owner who did not so much as respond to his request to re-rent the points to someone who wants to go that week. I think Id have a great shot as the only other option during that week is AKL at $18/point, mine was for a studio at Boardwalk and I was planning on doing $14/point. They apologized but there isn't any way they can help when the OWNER is the silent party. I honestly believe I would have risked this problem renting from anyone anywhere at this point.



yeah, my friend had the same issue with a VGF rental that was scheduled for late September, post DCL that was cancelled. The owners of the AKV and BCV studio rentals contacted him back and were willing to change the names for the fee and my friend reduced the asking price to $14/point. The AKV sold quicker. Nothing from VGF owner but I asked her to ask him again....the time for the rental hasn’t passed yet....


----------



## Sandisw

robinb said:


> I don’t disagree that he has done some shady things.  However, I think it’s an overreach saying that he is not attempting to contact members to re-rent vacations and saying that owners are not  replying. There are plenty of vacations available on his website and @AquaDame says that her dates were very likely to sell.  It really doesn’t make any sense.



He gets very little from this and we have no idea if what he says is the truth.

I get a renter is frustrated but this is truly the meaning of having a non refundable contract.

He burned a lot of owners and for all we know these owners were some of them.


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> Honestly, maybe David’s isn’t being upfront either and is no longer wanting to list so many confirmed reservations so blaming it on the owner,  No way for a renter to know and I would not put it past him.



This isn't it.... we had two reservations actually, one for two nights at OKW and then the second one. The OKW went up and was rented fairly quickly, which is making this all the more frustrating to think the other for four nights would have gone too. If they weren't going to bother, I doubt they would have done one and not the other.

Edited to add, once again, I do understand your POV that I should just accept defeat. In my scenario though David's is no longer the bad guy here, I'm fully blaming the owner who isn't getting back to him to even so much as say no. A no is better than ghosting us.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> This isn't it.... we had two reservations actually, one for two nights at OKW and then the second one. The OKW went up and was rented fairly quickly, which is making this all the more frustrating to think the other for four nights would have gone too. If they weren't going to bother, I doubt they would have done one and not the other.



I was referring to another poster who just checked recently.  But I still feel that it is unfair to criticize owners....not that you have personally..who simply are not interested in changing deals with him, given the level of distrust he has caused by his own actions..

ETA. And please understand I am not saying renters should not ask as all owners are in different situations.


----------



## Bearval

Sandisw said:


> He gets very little from this and we have no idea if what he says is the truth.
> 
> I get a renter is frustrated but this is truly the meaning of having a non refundable contract.
> 
> He burned a lot of owners and for all we know these owners were some of them.


I believe there are earlier posts by owners who stated they agreed to change the renters names as long as it was under the original contract rules but that the intermediary used their new version.


----------



## RachStu

Bearval said:


> I believe there are earlier posts by owners who stated they agreed to change the renters names as long as it was under the original contract rules but that the intermediary used their new version.



Yes, he did this to me.


----------



## Sandisw

RachStu said:


> Yes, he did this to me.



And its why slamming owners bothers me because there are differences in that new contract and it really doesn’t matter what he tells an owner, it’s the actual contract that would be enforceable if something happens. 

So, its just not as simple as it sounds.


----------



## Debbie Jean

AquaDame said:


> Edited to add, once again, I do understand your POV that I should just accept defeat. In my scenario though David's is no longer the bad guy here, I'm fully blaming the owner who isn't getting back to him to even so much as say no. A no is better than ghosting us.



Totally agree.

In this case, I fail to see how anyone could defend an owner who simply ignores the request. How hard is it to respond “no”?


----------



## Best Aunt

Debbie Jean said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> In this case, I fail to see how anyone could defend an owner who simply ignores the request. How hard is it to respond “no”?



Well, maybe it’s very hard. Maybe they’re sick. Maybe they have a family member who’s sick. Maybe they replied and their email got lost in cyberspace. We don’t know what’s going on in this person’s life. 

The negativity here is getting to be too much for me.  I think it’s time for me to stop reading this thread.


----------



## Bearval

Debbie Jean said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> In this case, I fail to see how anyone could defend an owner who simply ignores the request. How hard is it to respond “no”?


You are only hearing what the intermediary wants you to know.   Do you think if the owner told him he rather cancel the reservation so the renter gets a full refund he would tell you that?  I doubt it since he told owners earlier not to cancel reservations


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> This isn't it.... we had two reservations actually, one for two nights at OKW and then the second one. The OKW went up and was rented fairly quickly, which is making this all the more frustrating to think the other for four nights would have gone too. If they weren't going to bother, I doubt they would have done one and not the other.
> 
> Edited to add, once again, I do understand your POV that I should just accept defeat. In my scenario though David's is no longer the bad guy here, I'm fully blaming the owner who isn't getting back to him to even so much as say no. A no is better than ghosting us.



Why is anyone the bad guy? You have no idea why the owner is not responding

I didn’t say you should except defeat, but you are the one asking for an out of the contract, so i simply don’t agree you should be blaming anyone.


----------



## Sandisw

Best Aunt said:


> Well, maybe it’s very hard. Maybe they’re sick. Maybe they have a family member who’s sick. Maybe they replied and their email got lost in cyberspace. We don’t know what’s going on in this person’s life.
> 
> The negativity here is getting to be too much for me.  I think it’s time for me to stop reading this thread.



I need to follow your lead and just moderate.  But I have read that some emails going to David’s from a Comcast, I think, don’t actually make it since he changed something...maybe owner did reply and it got overlooked? 

And you are right, no one has any Idea what is going on.


----------



## Sandisw

Debbie Jean said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> In this case, I fail to see how anyone could defend an owner who simply ignores the request. How hard is it to respond “no”?



Maybe they did and it got overlooked given the volume of emails the broker seems to be getting? Maybe the Owner has more serious issues and thought they did respond?

Ultimately, no response to the email is a no.  I just think we should have some compassion for owners as well who may very well be dealing with issues too vs attacking their character.


----------



## Sandisw

Bearval said:


> You are only hearing what the intermediary wants you to know.   Do you think if the owner told him he rather cancel the reservation so the renter gets a full refund?  I doubt it since he told owners earlier not to cancel reservations



Great point.  Yeah, he did tell renters most owners were not returning funds and they had to take the voucher when owners came here and said they did return the money...

So yeah, no way is he telling any renter now if an owner was willing to just cancel it and let them have funds back because then they’d get it all.


----------



## Debbie Jean

Bearval said:


> You are only hearing what the intermediary wants you to know.   Do you think if the owner told him he rather cancel the reservation so the renter gets a full refund?  I doubt it since he told owners earlier not to cancel reservations



Ah, yes, the “benefit of the doubt”, always applied to the owner. 

Hey, I get it. I’ve been an owner for more than 15 years.  But good character was never a criteria DVC required.  From the information given in this instance, I think it is reasonable to assume the owner ghosted. But I don’t need to do backflips to create a circumstance that absolves the owner. In this case I take what was posted as what actually happened.


----------



## robinb

Debbie Jean said:


> Ah, yes, the “benefit of the doubt”, always applied to the owner.


... and Davids is always the villain.


----------



## aymekae

Crazy thread. I have a question as an owner who rented out Aulani points this fall. I refunded the 70% I received to David's as it's early in my use year and I decided to use the points myself. I'm thinking about emailing the renters to let them know that I refunded their money to David's, and if they are dissatisfied with David's voucher/refund offer, that others have successfully disputed the transaction with their credit card company. Good idea or bad idea?


----------



## Sandisw

aymekae said:


> Crazy thread. I have a question as an owner who rented out Aulani points this fall. I refunded the 70% I received to David's as it's early in my use year and I decided to use the points myself. I'm thinking about emailing the renters to let them know that I refunded their money to David's, and if they are dissatisfied with David's voucher/refund offer, that others have successfully disputed the transaction with their credit card company. Good idea or bad idea?



I certainly would because IMO, renters should be given the option to take the money or the voucher when owners refunded the money.

Davids could even offer the renter it in the same way he is for those listing confirmed reservations...with a $3/point fee.

It is very possible the renter would jump at that vs, the CC dispute which would be good for the broker.


----------



## EYL

Sandisw said:


> Great point.  Yeah, he did tell renters most owners were not returning funds and they had to take the voucher when owners came here and said they did return the money...
> 
> So yeah, no way is he telling any renter now if an owner was willing to just cancel it and let them have funds back because then they’d get it all.



I can confirm this because I am an owner that used his services.  I rented points for a June reservation and contacted the renters directly beforehand to let them know to rest at ease.  That when asked, I fully intend to refund the money.  I did when the time came, within an hours time of the email to see if I can return the money.  The renters emailed me a few days later, asking why I changed my mind.  I told them that I didn't and I asked them to call me.  We had a very pleasant conversation.  Apparently, they were told that the owner is refusing to refund the money so they can't get a cash refund.  A couple of weeks later, I heard from the renter and she said that she didn't get her voucher yet and she thinks it was because they exchanged some words.  Not sure of what their status is now, but I wish them well.

I'll call it as I see it:  The "put your contract aside and work from your heart" crap is BS.  No renter should have to go through the stress of the pandemic, and the stress of losing all their money at the same time.  There's only 1 villain here and it's neither the owner nor the renter.


----------



## EYL

aymekae said:


> Crazy thread. I have a question as an owner who rented out Aulani points this fall. I refunded the 70% I received to David's as it's early in my use year and I decided to use the points myself. I'm thinking about emailing the renters to let them know that I refunded their money to David's, and if they are dissatisfied with David's voucher/refund offer, that others have successfully disputed the transaction with their credit card company. Good idea or bad idea?



Good idea.  I would and I did.  It never sat right with me that someone would be speaking on my behalf with words that I've never said.


----------



## Sandisw

EYL said:


> I can confirm this because I am an owner that used his services.  I rented points for a June reservation and contacted the renters directly beforehand to let them know to rest at ease.  That when asked, I fully intend to refund the money.  I did when the time came, within an hours time of the email to see if I can return the money.  The renters emailed me a few days later, asking why I changed my mind.  I told them that I didn't and I asked them to call me.  We had a very pleasant conversation.  Apparently, they were told that the owner is refusing to refund the money so they can't get a cash refund.  A couple of weeks later, I heard from the renter and she said that she didn't get her voucher yet and she thinks it was because they exchanged some words.  Not sure of what their status is now, but I wish them well.
> 
> I'll call it as I see it:  The "put your contract aside and work from your heart" crap is BS.  No renter should have to go through the stress of the pandemic, and the stress of losing all their money at the same time.  There's only 1 villain here and it's neither the owner nor the renter.



Thanks for sharing your story. Just another example of why I take what David’s tells renters with a grain of salt, because I doubt you were the only owner whose renter was lied to,


----------



## dclpluto

Last week davids email me and said a owner didn’t want to go I was I willing to rebook it keep the reservation but they will try to find someone else for the reservation. I said yes of course even if there wasn’t any 150 extra for changing. I have looked everyday it finally has shown up. Renter  must of been really scared or couldn’t go the price is really really low it won’t last long. So low might even be worth it for me to buy it back myself lol. But I won’t do that doesn’t seem right. Not going to say what it is don’t want it to seem I’m after the 150. But it won’t last long guarantee.


----------



## dclpluto

dclpluto said:


> Last week davids email me and said a owner didn’t want to go I was I willing to rebook it keep the reservation but they will try to find someone else for the reservation. I said yes of course even if there wasn’t any 150 extra for changing. I have looked everyday it finally has shown up. Renter  must of been really scared or couldn’t go the price is really really low it won’t last long. So low might even be worth it for me to buy it back myself lol. But I won’t do that doesn’t seem right. Not going to say what it is don’t want it to seem I’m after the 150. But it won’t last long guarantee.



Update I told you it wouldn’t last long. Under 24 hours. Davids contact me said they had new renters who want to take over the reservation.  Original renters lost a lot. The new booking was for only 11 dollars a point. Knew it wouldn’t last long. It was at the boardwalk in a studio beginning of October for 5 nights Sunday check out Friday. I know they were scarred but I would of knocked it down to like 15 dollars leave it there for a week than if it didnt get any takers knock it down again.


----------



## starry_solo

dclpluto said:


> Update I told you it wouldn’t last long. Under 24 hours. Davids contact me said they had new renters who want to take over the reservation.  Original renters lost a lot. The new booking was for only 11 dollars a point. Knew it wouldn’t last long. It was at the boardwalk in a studio beginning of October for 5 nights Sunday check out Friday. I know they were scarred but I would of knocked it down to like 15 dollars leave it there for a week than if it didnt get any takers knock it down again.



they probably wanted some money back with a Good guarantee that it would be taken. I think they could have asked for $14/point and gotten it, but maybe they needed the money back quicker (even though they get $8/point)


----------



## AquaDame

Sandisw said:


> Why is anyone the bad guy? You have no idea why the owner is not responding
> 
> I didn’t say you should except defeat, but you are the one asking for an out of the contract, so i simply don’t agree you should be blaming anyone.



Well, its because most people are blaming Davids from what I can tell, and some are blaming the renters for not seeing this coming which.. how could we? It's unprecedented and frustrating that DL and Aulani are still closed with lower numbers. It's unsafe to travel and East Coast Disney seems to not care. It's making me defensive too.


----------



## AquaDame

dclpluto said:


> Update I told you it wouldn’t last long. Under 24 hours. Davids contact me said they had new renters who want to take over the reservation.  Original renters lost a lot. The new booking was for only 11 dollars a point. Knew it wouldn’t last long. It was at the boardwalk in a studio beginning of October for 5 nights Sunday check out Friday. I know they were scarred but I would of knocked it down to like 15 dollars leave it there for a week than if it didnt get any takers knock it down again.



Oof... The one we were ghosted on is also Boardwalk studio, first week of Oct. Sitting in Portland, surrounded by wildfires with air quality so bad its off the charts being reminded to be nicer because I don't know whats going on in the owners' lives. My MIL's farm is 5 miles from burning to the ground, my aunt's house was lost in WA... I'm honestly trying but it's hard, y'all. We're ALL are having a hard time of it right now!


----------



## Deb & Bill

AquaDame said:


> Oof... The one we were ghosted on is also Boardwalk studio, first week of Oct. Sitting in Portland, surrounded by wildfires with air quality so bad its off the charts being reminded to be nicer because I don't know whats going on in the owners' lives. My MIL's farm is 5 miles from burning to the ground, my aunt's house was lost in WA... I'm honestly trying but it's hard, y'all. We're ALL are having a hard time of it right now!


Florida is very safe now.  Numbers are dropping quickly.  Come to Florida and get away from the smoke and fires.


----------



## dclpluto

Deb & Bill said:


> Florida is very safe now.  Numbers are dropping quickly.  Come to Florida and get away from the smoke and fires.



yep my wife was scared to go last week. Went to Hilton head instead. Now going beginning of December now she saids she isn’t scared.I’m sure hundred thousands of people who were scared is no longer scared and now are planning on going. Which is great news for disney, universal, sea world for them and the employees. Plus lots of other workers who will be coming back that has a job because of tourists. Wish she wasn’t scared last week with the low crowds that will soon be coming to a end.


----------



## dclpluto

AquaDame said:


> Oof... The one we were ghosted on is also Boardwalk studio, first week of Oct. Sitting in Portland, surrounded by wildfires with air quality so bad its off the charts being reminded to be nicer because I don't know whats going on in the owners' lives. My MIL's farm is 5 miles from burning to the ground, my aunt's house was lost in WA... I'm honestly trying but it's hard, y'all. We're ALL are having a hard time of it right now!



so sorry. I would see if davids can email them again. I probably have gotten over 50 emails from davids in the last 9 months but at least two emails went to the junk file. They could of also easily overlooked it. Most people will do it. I got 150 dollars for changing to a new family which took about 15 minutes with the hold time. I don’t see many people turning that down.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> Well, its because most people are blaming Davids from what I can tell, and some are blaming the renters for not seeing this coming which.. how could we? It's unprecedented and frustrating that DL and Aulani are still closed with lower numbers. It's unsafe to travel and East Coast Disney seems to not care. It's making me defensive too.



People have been blaming David’s for the actions he has actually done when resorts were closed and owners were willing to work with renters in a variety of ways and he said no. He has lied to renters..see post above...so yeah, his actions are questionable.

I never supported the notion About renters with the whole should have gotten insurance because even those who did are out of luck,

But, now that resorts are open, peoples decision not to travel based on safety is Based on an individual choice and I think everyone needs to decide that.  Personally, I have No issue traveling but certainly don’t  begrudge those who do,

Point though is renters who need a change now are on the losing end...and I do feel bad for them...but they choose to rent a private reservation vs. one from Disney, which prevents a change or cancel.

So we will agree to disagree that any renter should be mad that an owner wants the contract fulfilled as is because whether people agree or not, putting your name on a new contract with new renters does obligate owners to new terms and conditions, no matter what David says when it comes down to it,

Of course you should be frustrated or disappointed and I am sorry that for whatever reason, the second owner can’t help you.


----------



## Brianstl

Sandisw said:


> People have been blaming David’s for the actions he has actually done when resorts were closed and owners were willing to work with renters in a variety of ways and he said no. He has lied to renters..see post above...so yeah, his actions are questionable.
> 
> I never supported the notion About renters with the whole should have gotten insurance because even those who did are out of luck,
> 
> But, now that resorts are open, peoples decision not to travel based on safety is Based on an individual choice and I think everyone needs to decide that.  Personally, I have No issue traveling but certainly don’t  begrudge those who do,
> 
> Point though is renters who need a change now are on the losing end...and I do feel bad for them...but they choose to rent a private reservation vs. one from Disney, which prevents a change or cancel.
> 
> So we will agree to disagree that any renter should be mad that an owner wants the contract fulfilled as is because whether people agree or not, putting your name on a new contract with new renters does obligate owners to new terms and conditions, no matter what David says when it comes down to it,
> 
> Of course you should be frustrated or disappointed and I am sorry that for whatever reason, the second owner can’t help you.



Many owners have been willing to work with people.  That is great, but we shouldn’t act like all owners have done that or that the new contract is why they won’t.  We have seen in this very thread owners that were trying to figure out how to keep their points and still get paid if the renter wasn’t going to show.  That is just greed.


----------



## Sandisw

Brianstl said:


> Many owners have been willing to work with people.  That is great, but we shouldn’t act like all owners have done that or that the new contract is why they won’t.  We have seen in this very thread owners that were trying to figure out how to keep their points and still get paid if the renter wasn’t going to show.  That is just greed.



Of course it’s not all and sorry if I made it sound like that. but there is a difference between resorts open and closed,

Keeping points and all the money would not be okay, that is for sure.

And, sure, maybe owners don’t want to change names for other reasons than contract.

I was just saying that it should be okay., no matter what the reason for the owner to keep things intact.


----------



## Henwen88

AquaDame said:


> Oof... The one we were ghosted on is also Boardwalk studio, first week of Oct. Sitting in Portland, surrounded by wildfires with air quality so bad its off the charts being reminded to be nicer because I don't know whats going on in the owners' lives. My MIL's farm is 5 miles from burning to the ground, my aunt's house was lost in WA... I'm honestly trying but it's hard, y'all. We're ALL are having a hard time of it right now!



I'm very sorry to see/hear about the severe losses out west.  As we are sitting and watching for another hurricane on gulf coast, I do appreciate that everybody's got 'something' going on - it's just been a rougher year than most for everyone.  On a positive note - that reservation (boardwalk studio) is still yours unless your owner replies/re-rents.  Grab an n95 mask and a cheap, cheap flight and come enjoy the Boardwalk balcony!  We all need to de-stress a bit, I think.


----------



## Amymouse13

So I stopped reading this a bit back, so end all we won charge back with Citibank and lost with bank of America ... Our trip was back in April while disney was closed.  So we are looking at about 1500$ in voucher, FML.  Is there any market to sell a voucher??  Is that even something that could be done....  I don't want to deal with David's and don't want to travel... Yes I know 3 years...


----------



## starry_solo

Amymouse13 said:


> So I stopped reading this a bit back, so end all we won charge back with Citibank and lost with bank of America ... Our trip was back in April while disney was closed.  So we are looking at about 1500$ in voucher, FML.  Is there any market to sell a voucher??  Is that even something that could be done....  I don't want to deal with David's and don't want to travel... Yes I know 3 years...



You'd have to ask if you can transfer the voucher to someone else? Or book a reservation in someone else's name?


----------



## purplenancy27

I want to add a night to a reservation. If i purchase an dedicated reservation from David’s, will the renter be reimbursed?


----------



## Sandisw

purplenancy27 said:


> I want to add a night to a reservation. If i purchase an dedicated reservation from David’s, will the renter be reimbursed?



From reports, The renters were given choices of a full amount voucher or he was refunding cash minus a $3/point restocking fee.

So, I would say it depends on what the renter actually chose.


----------



## Sandisw

Amymouse13 said:


> So I stopped reading this a bit back, so end all we won charge back with Citibank and lost with bank of America ... Our trip was back in April while disney was closed.  So we are looking at about 1500$ in voucher, FML.  Is there any market to sell a voucher??  Is that even something that could be done....  I don't want to deal with David's and don't want to travel... Yes I know 3 years...



Only David’s can tell you if you are allowed to use the voucher to book in someone else’s name,  IMO, I would think he would allow it since you would be the ones giving the names,

I am not sure you will get him to agree to find a renter for you to take the voucher...all you can do is ask.


----------



## Dracula

Is David still in business? I listed the points from a few contracts with him, and there's radio (email) silence for weeks. My guess is their focus is on re-renting the zillions of points from canceled reservations, and they may not want to rent any new points on which they have to pay the 70% upfront.


----------



## Sandisw

Dracula said:


> Is David still in business? I listed the points from a few contracts with him, and there's radio (email) silence for weeks. My guess is their focus is on re-renting the zillions of points from canceled reservations, and they may not want to rent any new points on which they have to pay the 70% upfront.


 
Last I knew they were but I’d say you may be correct in that they are using owners points from the closures who agreed to rent again vs send back money.

They also have tons of confirmed ones up for less because renters want out which may be taking renters away from the new points.


----------



## RachStu

Dracula said:


> Is David still in business? I listed the points from a few contracts with him, and there's radio (email) silence for weeks. My guess is their focus is on re-renting the zillions of points from canceled reservations, and they may not want to rent any new points on which they have to pay the 70% upfront.



Yes, I think so. They contacted me on Friday to see if I still had points that I wanted to rent with them. I politely declined.


----------



## spinchy

Dracula said:


> Is David still in business? I listed the points from a few contracts with him, and there's radio (email) silence for weeks. My guess is their focus is on re-renting the zillions of points from canceled reservations, and they may not want to rent any new points on which they have to pay the 70% upfront.


In business enough that they have finally challenged my charge back after 3 months.   Ugh, back to proving my case with the credit card again so they understand why these vouchers aren't fair compensation....


----------



## AquaDame

Well in yet another twist (and just to be completely transparent as I've commented several times already on this thread) David's emailed me out of the blue today and said my other reservation - the one the owners supposedly did not respond on - has sold and we will be getting our refund minus the $3 per point fee.

I never did see it posted to their list of dedicated reservations but I last looked a week or so ago - I thought we were out of time... check in is in 11 days. They never updated us that the owners had responded or anything. I have no idea what to think, or who to believe, but I'm thrilled that money I had kissed goodbye is coming back to us.


----------



## Sandisw

AquaDame said:


> Well in yet another twist (and just to be completely transparent as I've commented several times already on this thread) David's emailed me out of the blue today and said my other reservation - the one the owners supposedly did not respond on - has sold and we will be getting our refund minus the $3 per point fee.
> 
> I never did see it posted to their list of dedicated reservations but I last looked a week or so ago - I thought we were out of time... check in is in 11 days. They never updated us that the owners had responded or anything. I have no idea what to think, or who to believe, but I'm thrilled that money I had kissed goodbye is coming back to us.



Id say in this case, it doesn’t matter why you didn’t get contacted, its a happy ending for you.


----------



## WDWEPCOT

I’m very happy for you ! Wonderful news


----------



## cm8

spinchy said:


> In business enough that they have finally challenged my charge back after 3 months.   Ugh, back to proving my case with the credit card again so they understand why these vouchers aren't fair compensation....


Good luck!


----------



## Ecomommy09

We check in just 8 days from now. Hopefully, our owner has no intention of cancelling our stay this late.  I have been worried the owner would be so mad at David’s they’d cancel us to spite him.


----------



## Sandisw

Ecomommy09 said:


> We check in just 8 days from now. Hopefully, our owner has no intention of cancelling our stay this late.  I have been worried the owner would be so mad at David’s they’d cancel us to spite him.



Even as angry as owners were..,myself included...they would violate the contract doing it and screw renters in the process for no reason because resorts are open and he is paying owners for the stays.

So, I’d say you are safe. Only thing some owners have done is not agree to name changes when a renter wanted out because of contract differences and don’t trust him that it doesn’t apply even though they are put on a new contract with new renters that have different terms.

Have a great time.


----------



## Dracula

Ecomommy09 said:


> We check in just 8 days from now. Hopefully, our owner has no intention of cancelling our stay this late.  I have been worried the owner would be so mad at David’s they’d cancel us to spite him.


Spite has no place in contracts... we have a contract with David, we may have issues with the way he does business but as long as he honors his part of the deal, owners in all likelihood will honor theirs.


----------



## Disney1fan2002

Sandisw said:


> From reports, The renters were given choices of a full amount voucher or he was refunding cash *minus a $3/point restocking fee.*
> 
> So, I would say it depends on what the renter actually chose.



Interesting that his "restocking" fee equals his profit on points.


----------



## cvjw

AquaDame said:


> I never did see it posted to their list of dedicated reservations but I last looked a week or so ago - I thought we were out of time... check in is in 11 days. They never updated us that the owners had responded or anything. I have no idea what to think, or who to believe, but I'm thrilled that money I had kissed goodbye is coming back to us.



We purchased a confirmed reservation last month 2 days before the stay started!  11 days is plenty of time to plan a stay!  Congrats on your reservation selling


----------



## Sandisw

Disney1fan2002 said:


> Interesting that his "restocking" fee equals his profit on points.



He did offer owners $2 per point so it appears he kept only the $1.


----------



## mjr0483

Sandisw said:


> Even as angry as owners were..,myself included...they would violate the contract doing it and screw renters in the process for no reason because resorts are open and he is paying owners for the stays.
> 
> So, I’d say you are safe. Only thing some owners have done is not agree to name changes when a renter wanted out because of contract differences and don’t trust him that it doesn’t apply even though they are put on a new contract with new renters that have different terms.
> 
> Have a great time.



Sorry I am not all caught up on this thread.
I have rented my points through David's and they sent me an email asking if I would be willing to change the name on the reservation for the $2/PP kick back.
Does the original rentee get a full refund on points if they are successful in renting my points again? I am ok with this if they are doing the right thing and getting the money back to the folks who cancelled, but if they are just taking a second bite at my points, then even at $2/PP I am not sure.


----------



## mjr0483

Ok I think I understand the re-rental process now.
If they can re-rent the points for the original price paid, they refund back minus $3 restocking fee, of which they give $2 to owner and keep $1 to process the second rental.
I think this sounds fair. What does everyone else think?


----------



## Sandisw

mjr0483 said:


> Ok I think I understand the re-rental process now.
> If they can re-rent the points for the original price paid, they refund back minus $3 restocking fee, of which they give $2 to owner and keep $1 to process the second rental.
> I think this sounds fair. What does everyone else think?



Up to you. I was not asked but had I would not have done so because it puts me into a new contract with a new renter. That new contract has terms for owners not in the original renters 
contracts. 

David’s has said the owner remains under same rules because he doesn’t make you sing a new owners one but in the end your name goes in a different contract no matter what he says. 

Now if the trip is not far off it might be okay but again it’s up to you and your comfort level.


----------



## New Mouse

Agreed, i passed because the likelihood of it getting rented is slim.


----------



## mjr0483

Sandisw said:


> Up to you. I was not asked but had I would not have done so because it puts me into a new contract with a new renter. That new contract has terms for owners not in the original renters
> contracts.
> 
> David’s has said the owner remains under same rules because he doesn’t make you sing a new owners one but in the end your name goes in a different contract no matter what he says.
> 
> Now if the trip is not far off it might be okay but again it’s up to you and your comfort level.



I am not following here on what the downside is to me who owns the points.


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> Up to you. I was not asked but had I would not have done so because it puts me into a new contract with a new renter. That new contract has terms for owners not in the original renters
> contracts.
> 
> David’s has said the owner remains under same rules because he doesn’t make you sing a new owners one but in the end your name goes in a different contract no matter what he says.
> 
> Now if the trip is not far off it might be okay but again it’s up to you and your comfort level.



honestly this suggests I could write up a contract saying you owe me a million dollars, put your name on it, and then you owe me a million dollars.  Obviously that’s not how contracts work.  People can put your name on whatever they want but if you don’t sign it you didn’t agree to it and it’s not binding.  I think this is paranoia.


----------



## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> honestly this suggests I could write up a contract saying you owe me a million dollars, put your name on it, and then you owe me a million dollars.  Obviously that’s not how contracts work.  People can put your name on whatever they want but if you don’t sign it you didn’t agree to it and it’s not binding.  I think this is paranoia.



Well, a contract that says if resort closes you are required to return funds for a deal you got paid for is a valid one IMO. 

Your example is silly because when you do a deal with David’s you agree to things via online acknowledgement for renting points. 

Again, you can do what you want and I will do what I want. The poster asked opinions and I gave mine. I personally would not agree to new terms and conditions. Others may. 

Oh, and by the way, I know for a fact that an owner pushed him on this very subject and he did indeed admit that you were agreeing to return funds is resort was closed. Something you were not required to do with the original contracts.  Not paranoia at all.


----------



## Dracula

mjr0483 said:


> Ok I think I understand the re-rental process now.
> If they can re-rent the points for the original price paid, they refund back minus $3 restocking fee, of which they give $2 to owner and keep $1 to process the second rental.
> I think this sounds fair. What does everyone else think?



I think this sounds fair as long as you don't agree to a full refund in the event the resort is closed.


----------



## AngelDisney

I rented two Christmas DVC reservations and was devastated for not being able to go due to the closed border between Canada and US plus the 14-day quarantine. I am thankful to David’s team and the two amazingly helpful DVC owners who agreed to change my reservations. I was able to re-rent my reservations successfully two months after I had agreed to re-rent my reservations. I opted for the partial refund option and paying $3/point for re-renting my reservations. It’s my first time renting DVC and I made sure my cc had travel insurance coverage before renting, but with WDW not being closed for December, I can’t claim my cc insurance. I am glad that David’s offers this option even though DVC rental reservations are non-refundable. I just want to share my experience as a DVC renter and show my appreciation to the DVC owners who had helped renters like me!


----------



## Dixie1337

Sandisw said:


> Well, a contract that says if resort closes you are required to return funds for a deal you got paid for is a valid one IMO.
> 
> Your example is silly because when you do a deal with David’s you agree to things via online acknowledgement for renting points.
> 
> Again, you can do what you want and I will do what I want. The poster asked opinions and I gave mine. I personally would not agree to new terms and conditions. Others may.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, I know for a fact that an owner pushed him on this very subject and he did indeed admit that you were agreeing to return funds is resort was closed. Something you were not required to do with the original contracts.  Not paranoia at all.



and for many other people he says that no they will not be bound by the terms of the new contract... but you think despite saying that, they are?  

so I guess if david inserts into the contract without notification that you owe him a million dollars that would be binding too?


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## New Mouse

Dixie1337 said:


> and for many other people he says that no they will not be bound by the terms of the new contract... but you think despite saying that, they are?
> 
> so I guess if david inserts into the contract without notification that you owe him a million dollars that would be binding too?



No, but at the end of the day if something goes wrong, you will wind up in court because of it.   You will win, but you will wind up there.


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## Debbie Jean

New Mouse said:


> No, but at the end of the day if something goes wrong, you will wind up in court because of it.   You will win, but you will wind up there.


Honestly, for this amount of money, I don’t think anyone is going to wind up in court.

Whether you involve yourself is your choice but no one is spending the money on any kind of litigation. Potential stress and aggravation maybe.


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## AquaDame

Debbie Jean said:


> Honestly, for this amount of money, I don’t think anyone is going to wind up in court.
> 
> Whether you involve yourself is your choice but no one is spending the money on any kind of litigation. Potential stress and aggravation maybe.



I don't disagree with you, but small claims court exists for a reason... people can be petty, desperate, or any other number of things. I don't see David's company doing anything other than coming to some sort of agreement with people before it gets to that point though.


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## _auroraborealis_

I think owners who nod and agree that of course they're on the old contract and the new contract doesn't apply are just encouraging David's to continue their business practices, which I think most of us have agreed are shady at this point.


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## robinb

mjr0483 said:


> Ok I think I understand the re-rental process now.
> If they can re-rent the points for the original price paid, they refund back minus $3 restocking fee, of which they give $2 to owner and keep $1 to process the second rental.
> I think this sounds fair. What does everyone else think?


I think it's fair and I admire you for allowing your points to be re-rented.  Your renter will thank you for it and the new renter will be happy that they're getting a deal.  Win-win-win.


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## Debbie Jean

AquaDame said:


> I don't disagree with you, but small claims court exists for a reason... people can be petty, desperate, or any other number of things. I don't see David's company doing anything other than coming to some sort of agreement with people before it gets to that point though.



I've done small claims before... but how would this one even work? 

I live in NJ, David's in Canada, property is in FL and my supposed owner is in IL? Just an example, btw, but is likely how most transactions would look.


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## AquaDame

Debbie Jean said:


> I've done small claims before... but how would this one even work?
> 
> I live in NJ, David's in Canada, property is in FL and my supposed owner is in IL? Just an example, btw, but is likely how most transactions would look.



I'm not a lawyer but intercountry contracts exist so there must be provisions for how they work. My guess is slowly at best... they don't at worst. 

My guess is while he went ahead and started using the new contract that puts the owner at risk if the resorts close again he wouldn't honestly go after anyone who only signed the old one. But again... not a lawyer.


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## Sandisw

Dixie1337 said:


> and for many other people he says that no they will not be bound by the terms of the new contract... but you think despite saying that, they are?
> 
> so I guess if david inserts into the contract without notification that you owe him a million dollars that would be binding too?



I have no idea why you are being so contentious.  The document with the new renter does say you owe the money.  And, from what I understand about contracts, if  you have agreed to the terms..which you are when he creates the new document...you are bound by the terms,

The new renter contract has the language right there in black and white so there is no slipping it in.

As I have said, I personally would not have been comfortable putting my name on a contract that obligates me to something I was not obligated to when I agreed to rent a reservation via  David’s,

The fact that David’s did indeed confirm with an owner that yes, they would  be agreeing to those terms, is proof that in the end, the contract is what guides it 

If it wasn’t an issue, he’d put the new renter on the old renter contract.  But wait,,,he can’t...because he wants them bound to agreeing to a voucher if something happens. 

If renters can now decide they have a reason not to go, which I don’t fault them for, I also believe owners who are not comfortable to get involved in a new deal be respected as well.

I simply disagree with you


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## Sandisw

_auroraborealis_ said:


> I think owners who nod and agree that of course they're on the old contract and the new contract doesn't apply are just encouraging David's to continue their business practices, which I think most of us have agreed are shady at this point.



Exactly.  Even if the chances of going to court are slim, you Are agreeing to something new and not all owners want to do that.


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## EllieBride

I just recently agreed to a name modification for my October renter and I received the $2pp compensation from David’s.  Before agreeing to do it, we had numerous emails confirming that I was still going to be under my original contract’s terms and condition.  Of course, I was still nervous, but I decided that modifying was the right thing to do for the original renter.  

When I received my updated agreement with my new renter, here is what it said:


> 12. In the event of a Force Majeure (as defined in this paragraph), each party shall be excused from any future performance of obligations under this agreement; provided, however that if Intermediary has collected 100% of the funds for the reservation from Renter, Intermediary will provide to Renter a Credit which is limited in value to the amount paid for the reservation which is $1320.00 US Dollars on such terms and conditions as determined by Intermediary in its sole discretion, as soon as is reasonably possible after the condition(s) constituting the Force Majeure event is/are notified by Intermediary to Renter and Owner.  A Force Majeure is an event beyond the Intermediary’s reasonable control which renders performance of a rental reservation with respect to Owner’s rented points impossible or substantially impaired, including without limitation, acts of God, acts of government, embargoes, war, riot, epidemic, pandemic, natural disaster, governmental order restrictions and Disney Vacation Club closures or cancellation of reservations.


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## Sandisw

EllieBride said:


> I just recently agreed to a name modification for my October renter and I received the $2pp compensation from David’s.  Before agreeing to do it, we had numerous emails confirming that I was still going to be under my original contract’s terms and condition.  Of course, I was still nervous, but I decided that modifying was the right thing to do for the original renter.
> 
> When I received my updated agreement with my new renter, here is what it said:



Thanks for sharing the updated version. It does look like the part about owners requiring the repayment is no longer in there. That is great news and even I would have agreed under this language.


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## disneykins

We are owners who rented points out through David's in April in the middle of this mess. Our guests checked out yesterday and we received all our money from David's as scheduled. We were holding our breath the last few months that they might cancel but we never heard anything so assume they were happy to go (they were from Tennessee). 
Just wanted to post that there are good news cases when using David's. We would use them again in the future. We tend to give him the benefit of the doubt but we do live near his office and are able to drive by and ensure he is still in business, lol.


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## Dracula

I have also received payment from David on a recent check-in at the end of October. For another check-in in September there was some pushback, I had to reach out and request to get paid, but the October one went smoothly, got paid exactly on day of check-in. Hopefully their liquidity situation is improving and they can afford to keep both owners and guests happy.


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## CateinPhoenix

Hello, I have read through the posts, but unsure what my option are.  Rented two nights Aulani from David's for Nov 22-24.  We are not able to go in November, but instead going in December 4-18th.  
We would either like to move the reservation to December dates if possible, or could we expect to receive some sort of voucher or refund?  I'm not expecting much at this point as we have already made other accommodations reservations, however I somehow want to let Aulani know that we won't be checking in so that the room can be used for other guests. 
It's our first time renting points so not sure how all this works.


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## Dracula

You should reach out to David as soon as possible. I think a refund / voucher are out of the question, since the resort is open and welcoming guests. However, a change of dates to December is possible, provided there is availability; it may help if you are willing to pay ~$3 per point, to justify David’s time for reaching out to the owner etc.


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## CateinPhoenix

Dracula said:


> You should reach out to David as soon as possible. I think a refund / voucher are out of the question, since the resort is open and welcoming guests. However, a change of dates to December is possible, provided there is availability; it may help if you are willing to pay ~$3 per point, to justify David’s time for reaching out to the owner etc.



Here is the David's response: 
Thank you for reaching out again about your reservation. 
As the Disney Vacation Club Resort Aulani is officially open during your stay on November 22-24, 2020, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation. 
Although the rental agreement is active and is in good standing with Aulani being open, we are committed to going above and beyond as we certainly travel concerns at this time. 
We can offer to reach out to your Owner to see if they can move your reservation to a new date. Based on the expiration date of your DVC Owners points unfornately they can only move your reservation up to November 30, 2020. Also, it is up to your DVC Owner to work with us on your behalf. Again, the DVC Resort is open, your current reservation is active, and the Owner has fulfilled their end of the contract. They are under no obligation to assist.
*Or*
We can issue you Travel Credit that is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking), or Adventures by Disney. The Travel Credit would be in the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received.   
 If you would like to keep your reservation, that's okay too!

How does the Travel credit work?  Would I be able to try to use it for a DVC stay in December?


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## Sandisw

CateinPhoenix said:


> Hello, I have read through the posts, but unsure what my option are.  Rented two nights Aulani from David's for Nov 22-24.  We are not able to go in November, but instead going in December 4-18th.
> We would either like to move the reservation to December dates if possible, or could we expect to receive some sort of voucher or refund?  I'm not expecting much at this point as we have already made other accommodations reservations, however I somehow want to let Aulani know that we won't be checking in so that the room can be used for other guests.
> It's our first time renting points so not sure how all this works.



Contact David’s.  For WDW reservations, providing an owner agrees, he may be willing to advertise it as is, which is what he did for renters going to WDW.

There have been no reports of him asking owners to change dates, just names.

The owner can not cancel the trip or the violate the contract, so I would not worry about them being able to free up the room for others.

ETA: I posted before your response.


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## Sandisw

CateinPhoenix said:


> Here is the David's response:
> Thank you for reaching out again about your reservation.
> As the Disney Vacation Club Resort Aulani is officially open during your stay on November 22-24, 2020, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation.
> Although the rental agreement is active and is in good standing with Aulani being open, we are committed to going above and beyond as we certainly travel concerns at this time.
> We can offer to reach out to your Owner to see if they can move your reservation to a new date. Based on the expiration date of your DVC Owners points unfornately they can only move your reservation up to November 30, 2020. Also, it is up to your DVC Owner to work with us on your behalf. Again, the DVC Resort is open, your current reservation is active, and the Owner has fulfilled their end of the contract. They are under no obligation to assist.
> *Or*
> We can issue you Travel Credit that is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking), or Adventures by Disney. The Travel Credit would be in the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received.
> If you would like to keep your reservation, that's okay too!
> 
> How does the Travel credit work?  Would I be able to try to use it for a DVC stay in December?



Sounds like he is offering you a Voucher to be used so it would be available toward any rooms for DVC that may be open.  Just be aware, things are scarce...and we don’t allow owners to check and post what could be there,

So, reach back out and ask him to book you something for those dates.


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## MICKIMINI

Just to note, I was paid for an October reservation on date of check in.  One more to go in January...hopeful it goes smoothly as well.


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## Sandisw

CateinPhoenix said:


> Here is the David's response:
> Thank you for reaching out again about your reservation.
> As the Disney Vacation Club Resort Aulani is officially open during your stay on November 22-24, 2020, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation.
> Although the rental agreement is active and is in good standing with Aulani being open, we are committed to going above and beyond as we certainly travel concerns at this time.
> We can offer to reach out to your Owner to see if they can move your reservation to a new date. Based on the expiration date of your DVC Owners points unfornately they can only move your reservation up to November 30, 2020. Also, it is up to your DVC Owner to work with us on your behalf. Again, the DVC Resort is open, your current reservation is active, and the Owner has fulfilled their end of the contract. They are under no obligation to assist.
> *Or*
> We can issue you Travel Credit that is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking), or Adventures by Disney. The Travel Credit would be in the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received.
> If you would like to keep your reservation, that's okay too!
> 
> How does the Travel credit work?  Would I be able to try to use it for a DVC stay in December?



I want to add that I find it very interesting he just offered up the voucher since he has to pay the owner for the reservation.  I wonder if it is because it was only for the 2 nights.

Keep us posted as to what happens!

ETA: if I was a renter who wasn’t given that option, I’d contact him back!


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## DGsAtBLT

Haven’t been around here in a while and am pages and pages behind, but just wanted to say we won our dispute . We were from way back in the early days of the closure. So grateful for all the advice that came out of this thread, thank you guys!!


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## New Mouse

I had an interesting situation with Grand Cal where Davids agreed to eat the 70% and I agreed to eat the 30% and we all went our separate ways.   No haggle or hassle.


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## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> I had an interesting situation with Grand Cal where Davids agreed to eat the 70% and I agreed to eat the 30% and we all went our separate ways.   No haggle or hassle.



So you kept the points then? Awesome if you did!  It does sound that maybe he has learned that being flexible and working with owners and renters works out better in The long run!


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## New Mouse

Sandisw said:


> So you kept the points then? Awesome if you did!  It does sound that maybe he has learned that being flexible and working with owners and renters works out better in The long run!



Yup, i tried to be flexible to them and/or the rebter but they didnt want to go that route and understood w distressed points it may be more reasonable for me to just keep them.


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## Sandisw

New Mouse said:


> Yup, i tried to be flexible to them and/or the rebter but they didnt want to go that route and understood w distressed points it may be more reasonable for me to just keep them.



Excellent.  Well, I am glad to hear of positive things for owners. I am glad to be done with them, but will say in the end, I ended up in a wonderful place!


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## ziravan

Dixie1337 said:


> and for many other people he says that no they will not be bound by the terms of the new contract... but you think despite saying that, they are?
> 
> so I guess if david inserts into the contract without notification that you owe him a million dollars that would be binding too?


The issue is not whether you’d owe a million dollars but rather, if you have the time and attention to spend $20k defending against such a claim. And believe me, I’ve seen companies more than willing to “muddy the waters” to make the legal process impossible. This is especially true where they would otherwise have liabilities: now they scream “what about my claims!?” in an attempt to offset their own liabilities - often with success. All they need to do is fight opposing claims to a draw, “I don’t owe them full payment; they owe me a refund!” If nobody gets paid as a result, then in this case it’d be a win for the company making new claims that offset existing ones.

Add to that the international nature of any claims and it’s a bridge too far whether I’d really owe a million or not.

IANAL but I’ve seen this strategy employed enough to make me quite jaded about it.


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## CateinPhoenix

CateinPhoenix said:


> Here is the David's response:
> Thank you for reaching out again about your reservation.
> As the Disney Vacation Club Resort Aulani is officially open during your stay on November 22-24, 2020, we are obligated to fulfill the contract by paying your DVC Owner whose points have been absorbed by the Disney Vacation Club for your reservation.
> Although the rental agreement is active and is in good standing with Aulani being open, we are committed to going above and beyond as we certainly travel concerns at this time.
> We can offer to reach out to your Owner to see if they can move your reservation to a new date. Based on the expiration date of your DVC Owners points unfornately they can only move your reservation up to November 30, 2020. Also, it is up to your DVC Owner to work with us on your behalf. Again, the DVC Resort is open, your current reservation is active, and the Owner has fulfilled their end of the contract. They are under no obligation to assist.
> *Or*
> We can issue you Travel Credit that is valid for 36 months and does not need to be used exclusively for a Disney Vacation Club Reservation. You may utilize this travel credit for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Walt Disney World Resorts (value, moderate, deluxe booking), or Adventures by Disney. The Travel Credit would be in the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received.
> If you would like to keep your reservation, that's okay too!
> 
> How does the Travel credit work?  Would I be able to try to use it for a DVC stay in December?


Just wanted to provide an update....we were provided a travel voucher from David's, good for 3 years.  We were able to find a room we wanted at the new dates for Aulani and used the voucher with no problem....Overall very happy with how they made everything right for us.


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## AnnieMouseMom

I should add in a response too that's much delayed.  We did get a refund from Chase Sapphire for our reservation.  So it was definitely worth filing the complaint with them.  All best wishes to others!


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## thptrek

Just this morning, David's notified me that the person holding a February reservation does not want to go and if I would be willing to allow them to find a new family to put on the reservation. They would pay me $1 per point for my troubles, if they can find a new family to take the res.

I can see on David's site that there are already 4 reservations listed for the same days (same resort and room). I wonder if they would be able to find a new family.

After reading this thread I am nervous too about changing anything since this was on the old agreement with Davids and the renter. If I do nothing I still get my 30% in Feb when the reservation hits.


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## AnnieMouseMom

thptrek said:


> Just this morning, David's notified me that the person holding a February reservation does not want to go and if I would be willing to allow them to find a new family to put on the reservation. They would pay me $1 per point for my troubles, if they can find a new family to take the res.
> 
> I can see on David's site that there are already 4 reservations listed for the same days (same resort and room). I wonder if they would be able to find a new family.
> 
> After reading this thread I am nervous too about changing anything since this was on the old agreement with Davids and the renter. If I do nothing I still get my 30% in Feb when the reservation hits.


I would double check that you’ll get your 30 percent on the original reservation if you leave it as it is. Other owners have told me that they didn’t receive their payment when the renters canceled with David’s. I’m sure others here can weigh in with their experiences and wisdom.


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## thptrek

That is a concern. In the email, David's twice states that any decision does not affect the 30% I will get on the day of the reservation.  I would not think that David's would violate the agreement and not send me the 30%.


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## AquaDame

thptrek said:


> Just this morning, David's notified me that the person holding a February reservation does not want to go and if I would be willing to allow them to find a new family to put on the reservation. They would pay me $1 per point for my troubles, if they can find a new family to take the res.
> 
> I can see on David's site that there are already 4 reservations listed for the same days (same resort and room). I wonder if they would be able to find a new family.
> 
> After reading this thread I am nervous too about changing anything since this was on the old agreement with Davids and the renter. If I do nothing I still get my 30% in Feb when the reservation hits.



FWIW whether or not *they* find a new family is on them... when I was allowed to relist one of my two reservations for this past October I ended up dropping it to $3 per point less than the other exact one on their site, taking the $60 reduced refund. It worked; after that it was gone in a couple of days.

Something was up with the second one... Davids' said the owner had not gotten back to them so I thought I was stuck, but then I got an email 9 days out from check-in saying that one had been taken as well. Since the owners hadn't responded by the time I'd inquired about lowering the price, it was sold at the original per point price minus their fee. It was  a huge relief and I'm grateful to the owners.


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## Noodlez

I had two bookings they asked me to change.  It took less than 5 minutes on an online chat and I got $1 extra per point for doing it!  David's are doing so much to help everyone, so it was good to not only assist the original renter but to be given more money for doing so!


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## Sandisw

thptrek said:


> That is a concern. In the email, David's twice states that any decision does not affect the 30% I will get on the day of the reservation.  I would not think that David's would violate the agreement and not send me the 30%.



Most people who have decided to change things have not posted any issues. However, he did some owners an extra $2/pt for the changes. 

I think it’s up to you and comfort level with it but even the latest contract with renters seems to have taken out the requirements for owners to reimburse for closure...that only appears in new owners contract which does not get updated, so it is not as risky as it originally appeared to be.


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## AZMermaid

So this is interesting.... on a social media Aulani group, a renter rented 3 studios for Xmas and cancelled with David. She has an email verifyi g vouchers.  She is still getting calls from Aulani regarding her future stay. She says she got the credit without any expectation of rebooking reservation in another name. I’m guessing he’s just letting this be a no show? But why? He still has to pay the owner and now owes 3 Xmas week studios worth of vouchers. It makes no sense.... unless bankruptcy is looming and he’s like, eh whatever?


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## _auroraborealis_

AZMermaid said:


> So this is interesting.... on a social media Aulani group, a renter rented 3 studios for Xmas and cancelled with David. She has an email verifyi g vouchers.  She is still getting calls from Aulani regarding her future stay. She says she got the credit without any expectation of rebooking reservation in another name. I’m guessing he’s just letting this be a no show? But why? He still has to pay the owner and now owes 3 Xmas week studios worth of vouchers. It makes no sense.... unless bankruptcy is looming and he’s like, eh whatever?


Or maybe it is just incompetence.


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## Sandisw

AZMermaid said:


> So this is interesting.... on a social media Aulani group, a renter rented 3 studios for Xmas and cancelled with David. She has an email verifyi g vouchers.  She is still getting calls from Aulani regarding her future stay. She says she got the credit without any expectation of rebooking reservation in another name. I’m guessing he’s just letting this be a no show? But why? He still has to pay the owner and now owes 3 Xmas week studios worth of vouchers. It makes no sense.... unless bankruptcy is looming and he’s like, eh whatever?



Doesn’t make sense at all.  The owner won’t cancel them because it puts them in breach of the contract so those will continue to stay until canceled as a no show.

Obviously he has decided to allow vouchers for Aulani as this is not the first report I have seen.  Maybe he doesn’t have a ton of renters at that resort and can absorb the vouchers for those that ask to not go? 

From what I have read elsewhere, those options are not being give to WDW resorts.  It is use or lose, especially for 2021....of course, he could have changed that too.


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## DisneyBB

So I had two bookings in Sept 2020 changed them to Jan at renters request.  Now one of them can’t go and I am being asked to change the name if they can sell the booking.  No problem will do that. It is a shame they left it so late I would have changed it again if requested.    Looked and there are so many listings!


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## cm8

DisneyBB said:


> So I had two bookings in Sept 2020 changed them to Jan at renters request.  Now one of them can’t go and I am being asked to change the name if they can sell the booking.  No problem will do that. It is a shame they left it so late I would have changed it again if requested.    Looked and there are so many listings!


I hope they find someone but it’s gonna be hard luck for sure !


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## starry_solo

cm8 said:


> I hope they find someone but it’s gonna be hard luck for sure !



as long as they are willing to lower the price, it should. I told a friend to lower her price by a few dollars and it rented out quickly. She only lost 50% rather than 100%


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## DisneyBB

cm8 said:


> I hope they find someone but it’s gonna be hard luck for sure !


Think they have lowered it.  I still get my 30% plus $1 a point for changing the name.


----------

