Some things I have been reading

[luvsJack]

Five of Seaworld's 22 whales were captured from the wild, but not by Seaworld. The remaining 17 whales were born in captivity. I had a post on the first page that tells how those 5 wild captured whales came to be at Seaworld. You can easily find information online that backs what I have said. Simply do a google search for the whales name and then type Orca next to it. For example, search for "Tilly Orca" or any other whale you want to find more information about.

Though Seaworlds tanks are some of the best in the world as far as marine parks are concerned. However, i'll admit, I wish they were more realistic to the Ocean. For example, having rocks and Seaweed at the bottom.

Think about the whales that were born at Seaworld. Would releasing them into the Ocean, a place they have never been before, cause more harm than good? Research about Keiko the whale from the movie free willy. He was released back into the wild. Just do a google search for him and find out the result of his release and both the pros and cons on the release.

So, am I correct in assuming that if Sea World did not exist, those 5 would have either been killed or released and died as a result of that? It certainly makes sense to me that the current whales they have could not be released. These animals are in close contact with humans daily, they do not hunt for food and do not have to deal with whatever dangers there are to them in the wild.


I did see on the Sea World facebook page about them releasing a manatee that had been at the park for a year receiving medical care, rescuing a pod of beached pilot whales and releasing a rescued sea turtle. So obviously there is a lot of good in what they do. Does the park and the money made there make these things possible?

In googling Keiko, I just read an article from National Geographic about Keiko and Tilikum. It talks about the whales becoming psychotic in captivity. Now it says that Tilikum was at SeaLand and in a very small tank. The author of this article says its possible he became psychotic from that experience. Have any whales been shown to become psychotic from being at Sea World or is it an assumption that if it happens at one place it will happen at another?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130803-blackfish-orca-killer-whale-keiko-tilikum-sea-world/

 

[sonnyjane]

I really recommend that people read "Killer Controversy: why orcas should mo longer be kept in captivity."
http://www.hsi.org/assets/pdfs/orca_white_paper.pdf

Thanks for posting that. I found it earlier today but thought that it might be too "biased" for some. Truth hurts, honestly. When I went to Blackfish, I went with a friend that works at Sea World. We were both in tears.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Previously, there was a post about how old SeaWorld's captive orcas were. There is another side to that . . . The number of SeaWorld's captive orcas that died and their age at death.

If I counted correctly, 27 of 32 died before their 21st birthday.

Baby Shamu II Female Sea World San Diego 12 days Heart Defect
Bjossa
Female Sea World San Diego ~ 24 years Bronchopneumonia
Canuck Male Sea World San Diego ~ 4 years Candidiasis
Canuck II Male Sea World San Diego ~ 6 years Chronic Kidney Disease
Haida II Female Sea World San Antonio ~ 20 years Brain Abcess
Halyn Female Sea World San Antonio 2 years, 8 months Acute Encephalitis
Kahana Female Sea World San Antonio ~ 13 years Cancer
Kalina Female Sea World Orlando 25 years, 9 days Septicemia
Kandu Female Sea World San Diego ~ 6 years Pneumonia and Liver Necrosis
Kandu III Female Sea World San Diego ~ 7 years Uraemia - Nephritis
Kandu V Female Sea World San Diego ~ 14 years Massive Haemorrhage
Kanduke Male Sea World Orlando ~ 15 years Bacterial Pneumonia
Katerina Female Sea World San Antonio 10 years, 6 months Unknown Infection
Kenau Female Sea World Orlando ~ 15 years Bacterial Pneumonia
Knootka Female Sea World San Diego ~ 24 years Pyogranulomatais Pneumonia
Kona Female Sea World San Diego ~ 12 years Septicemia
Kona II Female Sea World Orlando ~ 12 years Lung Abcess
Kotar Male Sea World San Antonio ~ 17 years Fractured Skull
Nootka IV Female Sea World Orlando ~ 13 years Stillbirth Complications
Nyar Female Sea World Orlando 2 years, 4 months Immune System Failure
Orky II Male Sea World San Diego ~ 29 years Acute Pneumonia and Chronic Wasting
Ramu Male Sea World Orlando ~ 18 years Cardiopulmonary Decompostion
Samoa Female Sea World San Antonio ~ 12 years Labour Complications
Sandy Female Sea World Orlando ~ 11 years Cerebral Haemorrhage
Shamu Female Sea World San Diego ~ 9 years Septicemia and Pyometra
Shawn Male Sea World San Diego ~ 2 years Pneumonia
Splash Male Sea World San Diego 15 years, 7 months Perfoated Stomach
Sumar Male Sea World San Diego 12 years, 3 months Unknown
Taima Female Sea World Orlando 20 years, 10 months Stillbirth Complications
Taku Male Sea World San Antonio 14 years, 1 month Intertitial Penumonia
Winnie Female Sea World San Antonio ~ 26 years Blocked Intestine
Winston Male Sea World San Diego ~ 19 years Chronic Cardiovascular Failure

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/

 

[sonnyjane]

Thanks for listing that CPT. I do encourage followers of this thread to search our "blackfish" thread. I have a marine bio degree and have followed these whales in the wild and there's no doubt that their lifespans in the wild far overshadow those in captivity. I used To love Sea World and wanted to work there. The truth is I now have more information and don't agree with their policies anymore.

 

[GadgetTheInventor]

The way I do my part is to use my power as a consumer because I firmly believe that the only time America makes any type of change is when it affects (or is it effects? I can never remember) it's pocket book. I'm sorry but I'm super cynical. I believe we would kill every animal on this planet if it benefited us. I believe we would chop down every single tree in this country, pollute every lake, stream and ocean if we thought it would get us cheap gas. Sea world is a corporate entity, their primary focus will always be to satisfy their shareholders. The health and well being of those animals will always be secondary.

Great point.

While it can be beneficial to debate a topic, I also believe that change is spurred by how consumers spend their money.

When I look at SeaWorld, I ask myself...is there someplace better to spend my money that can accomplish the same goals? For me there is. I am a strong supporter of eco-tourism and there is quite a bit of that in the Orlando area. I think it is kind of far fetched to think that SeaWorld will just suddenly shut down. It will continue to evolve just like circuses and zoos have. One of the most prominent zoos in the country used to have a tribe of indians on display in a roped off area doing "indian" things. I doubt they would be able to be successful with a display like that these days.

If we want to have a constructive discussion about animal rights, why not discuss our own recent personal struggles on the topic? Has anyone cut back on eating meat one day a week? Has anyone switched to a body care product that wasn't tested on animals? Did anyone take their kids to the local park and look at their nature center instead of the circus? It's easy to point a finger and judge others...how about we judge ourselves just as harshly?

 

[Sparkly]

And for those of you who watch ANY documentary on any topic, I encourage you to think critically, be aware of the creator's biases, and read about the other side of the issue. Documentaries exist to influence you in a certain direction, and they often uses distortions of the truth, manipulation, and a host of logically flawed persuasive techniques to influence your thinking.

Hit the nail on the head. I never believe these documentaries. I prefer to learn the facts and make up my own mind. You're correct in that these things are often biased. Part of why I didn't like Super Size Me- that, and I saw several flaws in the documentary.

 

[lexandme]

So, am I correct in assuming that if Sea World did not exist, those 5 would have either been killed or released and died as a result of that? It certainly makes sense to me that the current whales they have could not be released. These animals are in close contact with humans daily, they do not hunt for food and do not have to deal with whatever dangers there are to them in the wild.


I did see on the Sea World facebook page about them releasing a manatee that had been at the park for a year receiving medical care, rescuing a pod of beached pilot whales and releasing a rescued sea turtle. So obviously there is a lot of good in what they do. Does the park and the money made there make these things possible?

In googling Keiko, I just read an article from National Geographic about Keiko and Tilikum. It talks about the whales becoming psychotic in captivity. Now it says that Tilikum was at SeaLand and in a very small tank. The author of this article says its possible he became psychotic from that experience. Have any whales been shown to become psychotic from being at Sea World or is it an assumption that if it happens at one place it will happen at another?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130803-blackfish-orca-killer-whale-keiko-tilikum-sea-world/

I would not assume anything. Part of the problem is Sea World's secrecy. You would have to trace the origins of those whales and how Sea World came to obtain them. No one will ever know if they were candidates for rehab and release. The veterinarians and sea mammal experts that decided these placements and conditions of the whales are all employed and paid generously by Sea World. Please remember this is big business with billions of dollars in profits every year. And they constantly need to replenish their stock. The pilot whales you mentioned are a great source of controversy. Sea World won't divulge their conditions at "rescue". These are some of the reasons I become suspect of Sea World activities. If you have nothing to hide, give us the data!

Again, Sea World will not tell us the conditions (mental and physical) of any of their captive cetaceans. Even those that were born in captivity through their breeding program. Please don't be deceived by the "dolphin smile". They cannot be happy in those unnatural habitats.

 

[sonnyjane]

If anyone has about half an hour, here was a discussion from a Seattle radio station this morning about the film.

The Blackfish talk starts around 2:22.

http://kiroradio.com/listen/9960361/#

ETA: I think the key words are "exit strategy". Just dropping them off in the ocean and having them fend for themselves without rehab/reintro work would isn't the answer, but Sea World and other parks SHOULD at least admit that they are going to make changes moving forward. No more breeding, period. No more taking whales from the wild, no matter the species, unless there is dramatic irrefutable evidence that in the wild, the whales would die (they way zoos have Species Survival Plans). Sea World is not alone in this. As with the belugas, several other facilities are just as bad. I will never visit the Georgia Aquarium for a plethora of reasons, the most recent beluga import attempt being just one of many. The bottom line is they want to make money and will do so as they see fit. I work for a NOT-for-profit and I think it makes a world of difference. Every stuffed animal sold in the gift shop is converted into funds for animal protection, research, and refurbishment at the park. That is absolutely NOT true of Sea World. If I am a general jerk, trip strangers, and take candy from babies, but once a year I volunteer at a food bank, am I a good person in general? I'd argue not, but SW would argue yes - a few good deeds overshadow the negative. I said this in our other thread, but SW suffers from an identity crisis. They want the benefits of saying they help animals like a zoological facility, but they want the profits of being a pure amusement park, and as a result they aren't particularly awesome at doing either in my opinion.

 

[KBF]

So, am I correct in assuming that if Sea World did not exist, those 5 would have either been killed or released and died as a result of that? It certainly makes sense to me that the current whales they have could not be released. These animals are in close contact with humans daily, they do not hunt for food and do not have to deal with whatever dangers there are to them in the wild.

If Seaworld didn't exist, there's no telling what might have happened. But that is anyones guess. You have to remember that this all took place in the 1970s, 80s and early 90s. I highly doubt there was ever a plan for a release of these whales into the wild. What you have to understand about releasing whales or any animal for that matter into the wild, is that it takes time, people and most of all, money. If Seaworld didn't exist, I don't think back in the 70s, 80s or 90s those whales would have been released. They probably would have died or been killed. You think about these small marine parks that housed the whales to being with. You would need to have a dedicated group of people to assist in moving the whale, taking care of the whale, and eventually releasing the whale into the ocean. Those parks wouldn't have been able to do that, Seaworld back then probably wouldn't be able to do it either.

Even today, you can't simply take a whale, and dump it in the ocean to let it swim away freely. Some people propose whats called Sea Pens. These Sea Pens are basically a holding area in the ocean where the whale is confined to that certain area, but they still live in the care of man for some time. It would cost a ton of money to set up that Sea Pen, get the dedicated group of people to be responsible for that seapen and that whales feeding and veterinary care for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. There is the chance that the whale wouldn't survive. Eventually years later, if they were deemed releasable, they could be allowed to swim into the ocean on their own.

Keiko, the whale from free willy, when he was released into the ocean, kept coming back to boats, and where there were humans. After captivity being all these whales have ever known, do you think this wouldn't be the same result if a Seaworld whale is released into the ocean?

I did see on the Sea World facebook page about them releasing a manatee that had been at the park for a year receiving medical care, rescuing a pod of beached pilot whales and releasing a rescued sea turtle. So obviously there is a lot of good in what they do. Does the park and the money made there make these things possible?

Of course. Money makes the world go round. These teams of people, veterinary treatments, and rescue efforts aren't free by any means. Do you have a pet? How much does it cost for the pets food, vet bills, and other miscellaneous expenses? Now that's one pet. Mulitply that by thousands to include all the animals in Seaworld's care. Remember, that's not just Seaworld in Orlando. But also Seaworld in Texas, and California. As well as the animals at Busch Gardens in Tampa and Virginia. As well as the animals at Discovery Cove in Florida, Aquatica in Orlando, California and Texas. Plus you need to pay all the staff members an hourly rate to care for each one of these animals 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. You also have to pay for the upkeep of the exhibits for the animals. Expenses include all the water that is pumped into the exhibits for the whales and dolphins and other marine life daily, the cooling system for animals such as penguins. Water heaters for animals that require warmer water. Filtration systems to pump and keep the water in the exhibits clean. You have to understand that there is a ton of money that needs to be brought in by Seaworld to even begin caring for these animals daily. And that's the nature of the business.

You can't run on donations alone. You need attractions, shows and animal exhibits that bring people in to spend money which allows Seaworld to care for all the rescued animals. You can say that Seaworld can build more rides, and get of the animal attractions. But think about in a world where Disney and Universal IOA exist right down the street, Seaworld needs something that seperates itself from those two. Something that makes it unique. And that's where the animal exhibits and shows come in. People say the shows are cruel. But show provide both physical and mental stimulation for the animals.

In googling Keiko, I just read an article from National Geographic about Keiko and Tilikum. It talks about the whales becoming psychotic in captivity. Now it says that Tilikum was at SeaLand and in a very small tank. The author of this article says its possible he became psychotic from that experience. Have any whales been shown to become psychotic from being at Sea World or is it an assumption that if it happens at one place it will happen at another?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130803-blackfish-orca-killer-whale-keiko-tilikum-sea-world/

Honestly, who is really to say that a whale or any animal for that matter is Psychotic? The definition of Psychotic or Psychosis from the national library of medicine.... "Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality that usually includes: False beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions) ; Seeing or hearing things that aren't there (hallucinations)."

How does one know when a whale has lost touch with reality or has false beliefs about what is taking place or who one is? They don't. Whales are living, feeling beings that have emotions like most animals do. If you've ever had a dog, you would know that sometimes that dog will growl at you if he's angry or in certain situations, you may have a dog that tries to bite you for one reason or another. Does that make the dog psychotic? Or does that mean the dog has emotions and sometimes feels angry. I think this is the same case with the whales. Sometimes, the whales are angry and want to be left alone. Sometimes the trainers didn't realize this until the whale reacted. Of course there were injuries, the trainers were swimming with a 5,000-10,000 pound animal. Injuries are bound to happen. Even with your pets. How many times has a cat scratched you or a dog nipped at you? How many times have you gotten pissed off at another person and wanted to punch them across the face?

And yes, a trainer was killed by a whale who never had people in the water with him. Whatever you or anyone else wants to believe about how Dawn got into the water is fine. That's anyone's guess. And that's all it is. A guess. I don't think even Seaworld knows. Until anyone has seen footage of the incident where she either is pulled in by her arm, pulled in by her ponytail, fell in the pool, grabbed by her waist and dragged in, all you have is an assumption. And think about this too. Seaworld has existed for 50 years. In 50 years there was 1 death of a TRAINER AT SEAWORLD. (The drunk guy who was on drugs and snuck into the whale exhibit after the park closed doesn't count. An autopsy revealed he died of hypothermia anyway) A death that occurred not during a regular show, but occurred after a dining experience had ended. The dining experience being a totally different event from a regular show. Think about in those 50 years how many shows were performed at all the parks yearly. Thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Think about all the training sessions between shows with the whales. And of all those situations, there was 1 death. Now i'm not justifying that 1 death is ok. 1 death is unacceptable and heaven forbid it ever happens again. But don't you think if the whales were "Psychotic" that more than 1 death would have occurred during the hundreds of thousands of shows and training sessions in the 50 year history of the park?

 

[sonnyjane]

And think about this too. Seaworld has existed for 50 years. In 50 years there was 1 death of a TRAINER AT SEAWORLD. (The drunk guy who was on drugs and snuck into the whale exhibit after the park closed doesn't count. An autopsy revealed he died of hypothermia anyway) A death that occurred not during a regular show, but occurred after a dining experience had ended. The dining experience being a totally different event from a regular show. Think about in those 50 years how many shows were performed at all the parks yearly. Thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Think about all the training sessions between shows with the whales. And of all those situations, there was 1 death. Now i'm not justifying that 1 death is ok. 1 death is unacceptable and heaven forbid it ever happens again. But don't you think if the whales were "Psychotic" that more than 1 death would have occurred during the hundreds of thousands of shows and training sessions in the 50 year history of the park?

KBF, there have been many, MANY non-lethal incidents at Sea World, some during performances in front of crowds, as well as injuries and even deaths at other parks around the world. Blackfish is not necessarily against Sea World, it's against the orcas being in captivity in general. OSHA is arguing that SW is putting trainers unnecessarily at risk and that there need to be protective measures taken when working with the orcas. SW is arguing that they aren't that dangerous, despite a long history of incidents in captivity. SW is arguing that basically because their shows SUCK without water work - absolutely atrocious and any of the trainers worth their salt will tell you that. I have friends that have worked at Shamu stadium. The last time I went to the parks, shortly after the "no water work" order came down, I witnessed more than half the stadium get up and leave about 10 minutes in because the show was so "lame". They want to get back their "wow" factor which is why they are fighting so hard.

And keep in mind that the things captured on guests' cameras and leaked to the press are just that, the ones that were actually caught on tape. Who knows how many other incidents went unreported?

 

[KBF]

KBF, there have been many, MANY non-lethal incidents at Sea World, some during performances in front of crowds, as well as injuries and even deaths at other parks around the world. Blackfish is not necessarily against Sea World, it's against the orcas being in captivity in general. OSHA is arguing that SW is putting trainers unnecessarily at risk and that there need to be protective measures taken when working with the orcas. SW is arguing that they aren't that dangerous, despite a long history of incidents in captivity. SW is arguing that basically because their shows SUCK without water work - absolutely atrocious and any of the trainers worth their salt will tell you that. I have friends that have worked at Shamu stadium. The last time I went to the parks, shortly after the "no water work" order came down, I witnessed more than half the stadium get up and leave about 10 minutes in because the show was so "lame". They want to get back their "wow" factor which is why they are fighting so hard.

And keep in mind that the things captured on guests' cameras and leaked to the press are just that, the ones that were actually caught on tape. Who knows how many other incidents went unreported?

I am not denying the fact that there have been numerous non lethal injuries to trainers. There have been numerous injures that the public is now aware of. I also agree that swimming with the whales is dangerous which is why I said of course there have been injures, since the trainers were swimming with a 5,000-10,000 pound animal. I guess the point I'm trying to prove with the post I made above is the whales are not causing these injuries because they're psychotic from living in captivity, but because it is indeed dangerous working with a large animal who like all other living beings, has emotions like anger that caused them to sometimes lash out at trainers. And that anger is not necessarily because they're living in captivity, but because of another social reason that may be of issue between the whales that we're not aware of. Like I said, sometimes your dog is having a bad day for whatever reason and growls at you or tries to bite you. Sometimes the dog bites you. It's the same with the whales. Whales are animals who sometimes have bad days which causes them to become angry with the trainers when the trainers were swimming with the whales when the whales just wanted to be left alone for the time being.

I also have to say that I think that waterworks with trainers in the water with the whales should be done with permanently. After being out of the water for 3 1/2 years, it's way to risky now to get back in, even with improved safety procedures in place. I think that ship has sailed. I think there can definitely be a strong bond between trainers and whales even with the shows that are in place now. And yes, the One Ocean show is disappointing to someone like me who has seen what the show can be like when the trainers are in the water with the whales, but I think to people who have not seen a Shamu show before, or not as many times as I have, it can still be something special to them. But as much as I want to see a show with trainers in the water with the whales again, I don't think it's right for Seaworld to be pushing for that to happen anymore.

I disagree however that Blackfish isn't necessarily against Seaworld. I have not seen the film, nor will I ever watch it, but are there any clips in the film that feature or talk about Lolita at the Miami Seaquarium? If you want to talk about animal abuse, I suggest you start with Miami Seaquarium and the horrible conditions that their killer whale, Lolita is living in. I think Blackfish is 100% about and against Seaworld due to the fact that the film is comprised by former whale trainers and workers at Seaworld. Does the film ever happen to mention why the trainers left Seaworld? I have learned that several former Seaworld trainers featured in that film were fired from Seaworld for different reasons. Perhaps the trainers have a personal vendetta against the park for firing them years ago? Again, who knows for sure? But it's something to think about.

 

[sonnyjane]

I am not denying the fact that there have been numerous non lethal injuries to trainers. There have been numerous injures that the public is now aware of. I also agree that swimming with the whales is dangerous which is why I said of course there have been injures, since the trainers were swimming with a 5,000-10,000 pound animal. I guess the point I'm trying to prove with the post I made above is the whales are not causing these injuries because they're psychotic from living in captivity, but because it is indeed dangerous working with a large animal who like all other living beings, has emotions like anger that caused them to sometimes lash out at trainers. And that anger is not necessarily because they're living in captivity, but because of another social reason that may be of issue between the whales that we're not aware of. Like I said, sometimes your dog is having a bad day for whatever reason and growls at you or tries to bite you. Sometimes the dog bites you. It's the same with the whales. Whales are animals who sometimes have bad days which causes them to become angry with the trainers when the trainers were swimming with the whales when the whales just wanted to be left alone for the time being.

I also have to say that I think that waterworks with trainers in the water with the whales should be done with permanently. After being out of the water for 3 1/2 years, it's way to risky now to get back in, even with improved safety procedures in place. I think that ship has sailed. I think there can definitely be a strong bond between trainers and whales even with the shows that are in place now. And yes, the One Ocean show is disappointing to someone like me who has seen what the show can be like when the trainers are in the water with the whales, but I think to people who have not seen a Shamu show before, or not as many times as I have, it can still be something special to them. But as much as I want to see a show with trainers in the water with the whales again, I don't think it's right for Seaworld to be pushing for that to happen anymore.

I disagree however that Blackfish isn't necessarily against Seaworld. I have not seen the film, nor will I ever watch it, but are there any clips in the film that feature or talk about Lolita at the Miami Seaquarium? If you want to talk about animal abuse, I suggest you start with Miami Seaquarium and the horrible conditions that their killer whale, Lolita is living in. I think Blackfish is 100% about and against Seaworld due to the fact that the film is comprised by former whale trainers and workers at Seaworld. Does the film ever happen to mention why the trainers left Seaworld? I have learned that several former Seaworld trainers featured in that film were fired from Seaworld for different reasons. Perhaps the trainers have a personal vendetta against the park for firing them years ago? Again, who knows for sure? But it's something to think about.

They don't talk about Seaquarium which I agree is awful. They do talk about other parks though. It's Sea World-centric just because that's where Tilikum lives and where Dawn's death occurred, but it follows the life of Tilikum at his other facility as well. If anything the film points the blame at SeaLand, his first facility, for creating a lot of his psychological problems. Some of the most heart-wrenching testimony comes from folks that worked at other parks, not SW. I wish you'd have an open mind and see it. I think you'll find it's a lot less "propaganda" than you think.

 

[luvsJack]

If Seaworld didn't exist, there's no telling what might have happened. But that is anyones guess. You have to remember that this all took place in the 1970s, 80s and early 90s. I highly doubt there was ever a plan for a release of these whales into the wild. What you have to understand about releasing whales or any animal for that matter into the wild, is that it takes time, people and most of all, money. If Seaworld didn't exist, I don't think back in the 70s, 80s or 90s those whales would have been released. They probably would have died or been killed. You think about these small marine parks that housed the whales to being with. You would need to have a dedicated group of people to assist in moving the whale, taking care of the whale, and eventually releasing the whale into the ocean. Those parks wouldn't have been able to do that, Seaworld back then probably wouldn't be able to do it either.

Even today, you can't simply take a whale, and dump it in the ocean to let it swim away freely. Some people propose whats called Sea Pens. These Sea Pens are basically a holding area in the ocean where the whale is confined to that certain area, but they still live in the care of man for some time. It would cost a ton of money to set up that Sea Pen, get the dedicated group of people to be responsible for that seapen and that whales feeding and veterinary care for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. There is the chance that the whale wouldn't survive. Eventually years later, if they were deemed releasable, they could be allowed to swim into the ocean on their own.

Keiko, the whale from free willy, when he was released into the ocean, kept coming back to boats, and where there were humans. After captivity being all these whales have ever known, do you think this wouldn't be the same result if a Seaworld whale is released into the ocean?




Of course. Money makes the world go round. These teams of people, veterinary treatments, and rescue efforts aren't free by any means. Do you have a pet? How much does it cost for the pets food, vet bills, and other miscellaneous expenses? Now that's one pet. Mulitply that by thousands to include all the animals in Seaworld's care. Remember, that's not just Seaworld in Orlando. But also Seaworld in Texas, and California. As well as the animals at Busch Gardens in Tampa and Virginia. As well as the animals at Discovery Cove in Florida, Aquatica in Orlando, California and Texas. Plus you need to pay all the staff members an hourly rate to care for each one of these animals 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. You also have to pay for the upkeep of the exhibits for the animals. Expenses include all the water that is pumped into the exhibits for the whales and dolphins and other marine life daily, the cooling system for animals such as penguins. Water heaters for animals that require warmer water. Filtration systems to pump and keep the water in the exhibits clean. You have to understand that there is a ton of money that needs to be brought in by Seaworld to even begin caring for these animals daily. And that's the nature of the business.

You can't run on donations alone. You need attractions, shows and animal exhibits that bring people in to spend money which allows Seaworld to care for all the rescued animals. You can say that Seaworld can build more rides, and get of the animal attractions. But think about in a world where Disney and Universal IOA exist right down the street, Seaworld needs something that seperates itself from those two. Something that makes it unique. And that's where the animal exhibits and shows come in. People say the shows are cruel. But show provide both physical and mental stimulation for the animals.



Honestly, who is really to say that a whale or any animal for that matter is Psychotic? The definition of Psychotic or Psychosis from the national library of medicine.... "Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality that usually includes: False beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions) ; Seeing or hearing things that aren't there (hallucinations)."

How does one know when a whale has lost touch with reality or has false beliefs about what is taking place or who one is? They don't. Whales are living, feeling beings that have emotions like most animals do. If you've ever had a dog, you would know that sometimes that dog will growl at you if he's angry or in certain situations, you may have a dog that tries to bite you for one reason or another. Does that make the dog psychotic? Or does that mean the dog has emotions and sometimes feels angry. I think this is the same case with the whales. Sometimes, the whales are angry and want to be left alone. Sometimes the trainers didn't realize this until the whale reacted. Of course there were injuries, the trainers were swimming with a 5,000-10,000 pound animal. Injuries are bound to happen. Even with your pets. How many times has a cat scratched you or a dog nipped at you? How many times have you gotten pissed off at another person and wanted to punch them across the face?

And yes, a trainer was killed by a whale who never had people in the water with him. Whatever you or anyone else wants to believe about how Dawn got into the water is fine. That's anyone's guess. And that's all it is. A guess. I don't think even Seaworld knows. Until anyone has seen footage of the incident where she either is pulled in by her arm, pulled in by her ponytail, fell in the pool, grabbed by her waist and dragged in, all you have is an assumption. And think about this too. Seaworld has existed for 50 years. In 50 years there was 1 death of a TRAINER AT SEAWORLD. (The drunk guy who was on drugs and snuck into the whale exhibit after the park closed doesn't count. An autopsy revealed he died of hypothermia anyway) A death that occurred not during a regular show, but occurred after a dining experience had ended. The dining experience being a totally different event from a regular show. Think about in those 50 years how many shows were performed at all the parks yearly. Thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Think about all the training sessions between shows with the whales. And of all those situations, there was 1 death. Now i'm not justifying that 1 death is ok. 1 death is unacceptable and heaven forbid it ever happens again. But don't you think if the whales were "Psychotic" that more than 1 death would have occurred during the hundreds of thousands of shows and training sessions in the 50 year history of the park?

Everything you say makes a lot of sense.

Your thoughts on the psychotic thing particularly interests me and was sort of how I was thinking. How can they say the whales go psychotic by being captive but Sea World has been around for a very long time, so it just seem to me that if anyone knew this was happening with the whales it would be Sea World.

As for releasing the whales, it is true for ANY wild animal that is raised with humans or spends a long time with humans. They never really go completely back into the wild. People around here are forever finding baby deer or raccoon after raising the animal, they want to let it go but the animal always stays close by and comes back for food. And even if the animal learns to find its own food, it will come back just for the human contact. So, it only makes sense that a whale will do the same thing.

 

[CPT Tripss]

If the captive orca exhibition industry did not exist, would all those orca have been captured? Very few of the captives were stranded, the vast majority were purposely captured, sorted, some released and others sold to the capture exhibition industry.

http://www.cetacousin.bplaced.net/stat/orca/ocapture.html

 

[CPT Tripss]

Why does SeaWorld grow the problem of how to deal with the captive population by their breeding program? And why in the world base it on Tilicum, with the possibility of passing on his undesirable behavior traits?

The captive exhibition entertainment industry created and grew the problem, now they say, it's too big a problem to solve, so we need to keep doing things the old way.

Stop breeding now!

 

[CPT Tripss]

Where there's a will there's a way. A big creative outfit like SeaWorld should be able to create an orca equivalent of the Tennessee Elephant Sanctuary and the several chimp sanctuaries. They profited for years from orca exhibitions and tricks.

If the animals are too habituated to humans to be rehabilitated and released, they'll figure out a way.

 

[Surfinpiratee]

I don't think Sea World is cruel to animals at all. I love Sea World and will continue to go and support them.

HOWEVER: (this is a question for my own knowledge) Isn't the reason you see the Killer Whales with their top fin kinda curved to one side from being in captivity?

 

[fabulousfive]

Dogs and other animals thrive off being "trained" and doing things to please their owners. Whose to say mammals don't thrive off of that too? Maybe its more enjoyable to them to do be trained to do tricks, always have calm waters to live in and food and treats CONSTANTLY given to them. Whose to say that this life is worse off then the one they had? Are we in their minds?

Would you go to a zoo then?

Zoos and aQuariums do a lot for the animals on this earth.

No, we don't go to zoos either. Nor do we ever visit the circus. I don't like the idea of animals (especially large ones) living in captivity. I will say we do frequent the local aquarium but only because they have smaller fish where I don't feel they are so crammed, and there are many rescued animals as well as endangered. I struggled for a long time with Animal Kingdom and we hence have never been. I've started to feel that maybe the space is large enough for the animals and we are going to check it out for the first time this winter. I hope I have a good feeling while there...

 

[fabulousfive]

I welcome intelligent discussion regarding this topic. It encourages others to investigate the facts and come to their own conclusion. I do believe captivity of cetaceans is cruel. I also believe more people are coming to the same conclusion. Sea World's rebuttal to the movie Blackfish was weak at best. The videos of the dolphin that jumped out of the tank and the beluga that "beached" itself did not promote them in a good light either. Sea World is in a bad place now. The whole world is watching. Keep the conversation going!

Now I want to see the documentary.

 

[sonnyjane]

I don't think Sea World is cruel to animals at all. I love Sea World and will continue to go and support them.

HOWEVER: (this is a question for my own knowledge) Isn't the reason you see the Killer Whales with their top fin kinda curved to one side from being in captivity?

Yes. It happens because in captivity they spend much less time swimming underwater and therefore gravity wins and the fin collapses. While it can occur in the wild, it happens in about 1% of the population. In captivity, dorsal collapse occurs in at least 25% of individuals. They discuss this in the film, as well as how Sea World employees have been told to lie to guests about it. I went to the film with my friend that works at SW and she confirmed that they were instructed to say the same thing the employees in the film say. They were also told, regarding the film, that SW was never asked to comment during the making of the film, whereas the filmmaker claims they denied multiple requests. Someone is lying and I know who I have my money on...