Prices just hit my threshold :-(

[3DisneyFanz]

Well played sir.....well played.

Don't take this wrong because I don't know your background with Disney but lots of people see the headlines about attendance reaching record numbers and stock prices reaching record highs and don't realize that for all intents and purposes they are simply returning to where they were in the 90s.

 

[SmithSmith]

Don't take this wrong because I don't know your background with Disney but lots of people see the headlines about attendance reaching record numbers and stock prices reaching record highs and don't realize that for all intents and purposes they are simply returning to where they were in the 90s.

Comments like this get posted quite a bit and I'm always confused by them, so perhaps you can help me understand. Below are the Magic Kingdom attendance numbers since 1991:

2014 : 19.3 million
2013 : 18.5 million
2012 : 17.5 million
2011 : 17.1 million
2010 : 16.9 million
2009 : 17.2 million
2008 : 17.0 million
2007 : 17.0 million
2006 : 16.6 million
2005 : 16.2 million
2004 : 15.1 million
2003 : 14 million
2002 : 14 million
2001 : 14.7 million
2000 : 15.4 million
1999 : 15.2 million
1998 : 15.6 million
1997 : 17.0 million
1996 : 13.8 million
1995 : 12.9 million
1994 : 11.2 million
1993 : 12.0 million
1992 : 11.5 million
1991 : 18.0 million
1990 : ? (similar to 1990)

I couldn't locate an actual figure for 1990, but sources indicate resort attendance was similar to 1991, so for the averages below I assumed attendance for that year was also 18 million.

1990's : 14.52 average
2000's : 15.72 average
2010's : 17.86 average

According to the averages above, there would be a reduction of 3.3 million people/per year at the Magic Kingdom alone, if what you said was true and attendance was actually returning to where it was in the 90's. IMO, only 3 years in the 90's (1990, 1991, & 1997) even come close to rivaling the attendance numbers of our current decade. From my perspective, WDW is on track to having its strongest decade yet. So my question to you is, what is it about these numbers that makes you think differently?

 

[disneyfan2kids]

I have to wonder if the majority (not all, but the majority) of the people responding that WDW is worth the recent price increase are younger. In my opinion, people who traveled often to WDW in 80/90/00's know a different "value" that used to be had vs current. We can see the "then vs now" changes that make us question the ever skyrocketing increases with lack of new attractions and consistent decline of unique dining.

I mean if you don't know any different and "this" WDW is al you know and you have no comparisons to "that" WDW it would make sense that some people just don't "get it."

And I 100% disagree that WDW doesn't want it's Repeat clients bit would rather the "big whale"... Because, DVC that's why. They'd have stopped the DVC expansions years ago if research showed that DVC wasn't profitable.

It's the DVC people and the locals that will be your bread and butter when all the young families drop $10-12K on a single vacation for very little return and decide they won't be back for 5 years.

If nothing else, there are probably tens of thousands of people who are now going to entertain the Universal Sea World option. Many may love it and thank WDW for forcing their hand to discover a whole new vacation tradition. I would have NEVER entertained going to Universal a year ago. Now I am learning everything I can about it. For Igors sake... He better hope Universal fails to impress the people in this camp... But I have to imagine that won't be the case.

Their short term gain creates long term problems, I'm afraid.

 

[mom2rtk]

And I 100% disagree that WDW doesn't want it's Repeat clients bit would rather the "big whale"...

I agree. They don't want one group over another. They want them ALL. They're just a bit blinded by their greed right now.

 

[Art 1]

It's really quiet simple. It has been, and still is, I have been told this personally , that the philosophy of Disney Co is to raise praises constantly until (they show up at the gate and turn around and leave). And that's been the course since the early 90's.

Look at the price of luxury items over the last say 15 years, cars, jewelry, watches, leather good. They have all sky rocketed and continue too. Not sure why so many here can't understand that this is just how things work.

 

[goofy4tink]

I have to wonder if the majority (not all, but the majority) of the people responding that WDW is worth the recent price increase are younger. In my opinion, people who traveled often to WDW in 80/90/00's know a different "value" that used to be had vs current. We can see the "then vs now" changes that make us question the ever skyrocketing increases with lack of new attractions and consistent decline of unique dining.

I mean if you don't know any different and "this" WDW is al you know and you have no comparisons to "that" WDW it would make sense that some people just don't "get it."

And I 100% disagree that WDW doesn't want it's Repeat clients bit would rather the "big whale"... Because, DVC that's why. They'd have stopped the DVC expansions years ago if research showed that DVC wasn't profitable.

It's the DVC people and the locals that will be your bread and butter when all the young families drop $10-12K on a single vacation for very little return and decide they won't be back for 5 years.

If nothing else, there are probably tens of thousands of people who are now going to entertain the Universal Sea World option. Many may love it and thank WDW for forcing their hand to discover a whole new vacation tradition. I would have NEVER entertained going to Universal a year ago. Now I am learning everything I can about it. For Igors sake... He better hope Universal fails to impress the people in this camp... But I have to imagine that won't be the case.

Their short term gain creates long term problems, I'm afraid.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!! Those people that have been going for the past 5-8 years have nothing to base a comparison on. There are so many things I miss about the way it was at WDW..at restaurants you could get little swizzle sticks and napkins that were restaurant specific. There was resort specific stuff for sale....one of my all time favorite coffee mugs is from AKL..it was made in Africa, but is 'Disney-fied'. I have a Christmas ornament that was made in Africa. I miss the tree lighting ceremony at Epcot. I miss the Lights of Winter. I miss the great stuff you used to get at the parties...commemorative buttons, free photos. I miss the overall 'magical' feel....yes, there are CMs that still go out of their way to do something a bit extra. Now? I would be happy with consistently pleasant CMs!! I miss being able to find different, interesting things in various shops...vs nowadays where if you forget to buy something at the Emporium, you can find it at Mouse Gears!!! Yes, the shops at AK have some different stuff, but it hasn't changed over the years.
I own DVC....do I think that Disney couldn't care less about me? No, not really. But, we do sometimes feel like the red-headed step-child. They have our money. They know we'll be back. They know how much we will spend on meals. They don't need to 'do' anything to keep us. Yes, we can slow down our visits to WDW....seems that's exactly what many here are going to do. But the cost to buy into DVC has gone up hugely!!!! It has almost doubled since I first bought in '03. And we're getting less now. Yes, I know...we still get point usage. But...we used to get free valet parking, we used to get nicer amenities in our villas, the villas were maintained much better years ago. Now they're taking away certain times of year on our APs, but charging us more. So, yeah, red-headed step-child.
My son lives in Tampa. They didn't renew their residents AP this year. Just felt that they weren't getting much for their money. The parks haven't really changed..in fact, some, like DHS and Epcot, have gone downhill. Sure, they're building new stuff. But people don't really want to pay now, for attractions down the road. They are paying top dollar for half empty parks. Sure, MK has the new Fantasy Land. But in all seriousness, how long do adults, with no kids, spend in that area? I now ride SDMT and then leave the area. And if I don't get to ride it? No big deal.
I'm finding that a lot of my time at WDW is starting to feel like one big 'no big deal'. I used to love just walking around the parks, taking it all in. Now? There has been so much construction, in all the parks, that it has taken a lot of that enjoyment away. Yes, I know how that sounds..how can they add new stuff without all that construction. But they could space it out so that only one park is impacted in a big way.
I'm taking two days in the middle of my WDW trip, in Jan, to head to US/IoA. I'll be buying an AP there...it's more than worth it, if just for the room discounts. I have to wonder, if down the road, we don't start heading off WDW property to do other things in the area. Heck, even Busch Gardens is only 90 mins away!!!

 

[wisblue]

I think there are different types of "repeat" visitors. One type makes WDW a regular vacation destination by visiting roughly once every year or so. DVC is perfect for guests like that, who can use the banking and borrowing of points to sometimes visit more often than once a year and sometimes skip a year.

Then there are really frequent visitors, those who visit more than once a year, and sometimes for several weeks a year. That includes locals or people who live within a few hundred miles who can make frequent short visits.

Annual passes usually only make economic sense for people who make multiple visits, either a couple of trips of at least a few days each or several one or two day trips. I agree that Disney wants all types of guests, but the significant increases in AP prices in recent years suggest to me that they are trying to put a damper on people who use those APs to get literally dozens of park days. Those guests are probably less likely to spend as much per day, and are less profitable, than the guests who only visit once in a lifetime or once every few years. And, because they do visit so often, they are probably more likely to focus their attention on each park's most popular attractions, making those attractions less available to the infrequent guests.

I wonder if Disney has ever considered a type of ticket for these frequent visitors that would be kind of a hybrid between a traditional annual pass and the now defunct non-expiring tickets. I am thinking of something that would give the guest something like 10 or 15 admissions to use in a 365 day period at a price of about $40 per admission. This would give regular visitors a reasonable per day price but prevent them from visiting so often that they become unprofitable. They could even build in a rollover feature that would allow guests to push something like 5 of their admissions into the next year if they renew their tickets. So, those admissions would be somewhat flexible without being completely non-expiring.

We will get a better idea when the next round of increases for MYW tickets comes out. But, I don't expect the increases for those tickets to be as high on a percentage basis as the increases for APs, especially for the non peak periods. I think Disney wants to encourage those infrequent visitors to spend their entire week at WDW, and the best way to do that is to offer tickets which offer low marginal prices for days after the 3 or 4 days it takes to visit each park.

 

[anniemae]

I have to wonder if the majority (not all, but the majority) of the people responding that WDW is worth the recent price increase are younger. In my opinion, people who traveled often to WDW in 80/90/00's know a different "value" that used to be had vs current. We can see the "then vs now" changes that make us question the ever skyrocketing increases with lack of new attractions and consistent decline of unique dining.

I mean if you don't know any different and "this" WDW is al you know and you have no comparisons to "that" WDW it would make sense that some people just don't "get it."

And I 100% disagree that WDW doesn't want it's Repeat clients bit would rather the "big whale"... Because, DVC that's why. They'd have stopped the DVC expansions years ago if research showed that DVC wasn't profitable.

It's the DVC people and the locals that will be your bread and butter when all the young families drop $10-12K on a single vacation for very little return and decide they won't be back for 5 years.

If nothing else, there are probably tens of thousands of people who are now going to entertain the Universal Sea World option. Many may love it and thank WDW for forcing their hand to discover a whole new vacation tradition. I would have NEVER entertained going to Universal a year ago. Now I am learning everything I can about it. For Igors sake... He better hope Universal fails to impress the people in this camp... But I have to imagine that won't be the case.

Their short term gain creates long term problems, I'm afraid.

I agree with this. DH and I used to travel to Disney every other year during the first week of Feb back in the 90's. It was awesome. I have pictures of us on Main St with about 20 people around, and it was mid-morning. There was no need for rope drop, you could sleep in, leisurely get to the park and walk on every ride. No need for fast pass as there was simply no wait for anything. The food quality was excellent and there was no need for ADR's, you simply ate when you were hungry and walked up to any restaurant. The service was impeccable, and plentiful. I think that is where there is a divide. The folks that never experienced THAT Disney think the Disney of today is fine. But those of us who were treated to the Disney of the past know what we are missing.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

Comments like this get posted quite a bit and I'm always confused by them, so perhaps you can help me understand. Below are the Magic Kingdom attendance numbers since 1991:

2014 : 19.3 million
2013 : 18.5 million
2012 : 17.5 million
2011 : 17.1 million
2010 : 16.9 million
2009 : 17.2 million
2008 : 17.0 million
2007 : 17.0 million
2006 : 16.6 million
2005 : 16.2 million
2004 : 15.1 million
2003 : 14 million
2002 : 14 million
2001 : 14.7 million
2000 : 15.4 million
1999 : 15.2 million
1998 : 15.6 million
1997 : 17.0 million
1996 : 13.8 million
1995 : 12.9 million
1994 : 11.2 million
1993 : 12.0 million
1992 : 11.5 million
1991 : 18.0 million
1990 : ? (similar to 1990)

I couldn't locate an actual figure for 1990, but sources indicate resort attendance was similar to 1991, so for the averages below I assumed attendance for that year was also 18 million.

1990's : 14.52 average
2000's : 15.72 average
2010's : 17.86 average

According to the averages above, there would be a reduction of 3.3 million people/per year at the Magic Kingdom alone, if what you said was true and attendance was actually returning to where it was in the 90's. IMO, only 3 years in the 90's (1990, 1991, & 1997) even come close to rivaling the attendance numbers of our current decade. From my perspective, WDW is on track to having its strongest decade yet. So my question to you is, what is it about these numbers that makes you think differently?

If you're simply looking at numbers yes the company is very strong. If you're looking at the things that built the brand like innovation, service and being an industry leader. I never dreamed I'd see the day when they told customers we realize we're giving you to much so we're reducing our benefits to be like everyone else. There are other companies doing Disney better than Disney now.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Sorry you are in that position. It would be nice to think there are 'many' others- but my guess is that it is way fewer than we believe it to be. People will get upset for a while, but the Disney parks will be busting at the seams again next year- and the year after that- and for many years to come.

I hope disney doesn't just take that for granted. MK had similar numbers in the early nineties...they just surpassed the 1991 mk attendance level in the last couple years...maybe 2013? Their park was bursting at the seams then, attendance was booming....then it stopped. Not only stopped growing, but fell pretty far in 1992 and took 20 years (appx) to get back to the attendance levels they had. IIRC, Epcot still hasn't surpassed what its attendance was back then. It isn't as though they weren't building anything new in that era either.

The disney lovers, like us here, were the ones continuing to come when attendance dropped. I hope disney doesn't lose sight of that in the long-run.

 

[eliza61]

It's really quiet simple. It has been, and still is, I have been told this personally , that the philosophy of Disney Co is to raise praises constantly until (they show up at the gate and turn around and leave). And that's been the course since the early 90's.

Look at the price of luxury items over the last say 15 years, cars, jewelry, watches, leather good. They have all sky rocketed and continue too. Not sure why so many here can't understand that this is just how things work.

Hey Art,
no, I think we absolutely do get it, I think the problem comes up because when we post that we're done, we generally get a very heavy push back and told we are "haters".

I am in no way a hater of Disney, I love the place but the quality of the product no longer is worth my money.

You are absolutely right it is just like other quality items. I love coach bags but I do not spend my money at the coach outlets, the quality of the outlet stores is totally different imo than their full line store.

Car manufacturers at least know that they have to up their game every few years, that's why every new year model is consistently improving. Can we really say that about Disney? heck no. In no area are the parks better than even 3 years ago.

Disney IMO has become an outlet. As I mentioned, two out of the 4 parks are antiquated and only worth half of the admission, I'm a dvc owner and the resorts are less well maintained and the food has gone downhill (again just my experience). My last visit was actually one of the better ones in 5 years.

So I am doing just what you said, I'm turning around and leaving. now I'm hoping with the promised expansions and refurbs that I'll return but for now, there are many other places.

I simply cannot continue to pay more for less. why is that hard to understand?

It's funny because I would bet in almost every other area of peoples lives, no how would they continue to fork over money for less, heck, I've seen people here throw hissy fits because the ice cream cartons are no longer full size. Yet because Disney does the very same thing, it's ok.

I'm glad some still find value at the Mouseworld but sky high prices and all I'm getting is a free picture cd is simply not enough for me anymore.

That's all we're saying

 

[Angel Ariel]

Comments like this get posted quite a bit and I'm always confused by them, so perhaps you can help me understand. Below are the Magic Kingdom attendance numbers since 1991:

2014 : 19.3 million
2013 : 18.5 million
2012 : 17.5 million
2011 : 17.1 million
2010 : 16.9 million
2009 : 17.2 million
2008 : 17.0 million
2007 : 17.0 million
2006 : 16.6 million
2005 : 16.2 million
2004 : 15.1 million
2003 : 14 million
2002 : 14 million
2001 : 14.7 million
2000 : 15.4 million
1999 : 15.2 million
1998 : 15.6 million
1997 : 17.0 million
1996 : 13.8 million
1995 : 12.9 million
1994 : 11.2 million
1993 : 12.0 million
1992 : 11.5 million
1991 : 18.0 million
1990 : ? (similar to 1990)

I couldn't locate an actual figure for 1990, but sources indicate resort attendance was similar to 1991, so for the averages below I assumed attendance for that year was also 18 million.

1990's : 14.52 average
2000's : 15.72 average
2010's : 17.86 average

According to the averages above, there would be a reduction of 3.3 million people/per year at the Magic Kingdom alone, if what you said was true and attendance was actually returning to where it was in the 90's. IMO, only 3 years in the 90's (1990, 1991, & 1997) even come close to rivaling the attendance numbers of our current decade. From my perspective, WDW is on track to having its strongest decade yet. So my question to you is, what is it about these numbers that makes you think differently?

I think the point that the pp was trying to make was exactly what these numbers show. There has only been " record attendance " in mk since 2013, when they broke the 18 million mark for the first time since 1991.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I think that soon the crowds will tend to be more day visitors- people with a one day one park ticket. Now that doing a week at Disney has gotten so crazy with the pricing, I think a lot of people will end up just visiting MK as a day during a few day trip to Orlando kind of thing. Even though the one day tickets are pricey, it's still all a lot of people will be able to afford. Asking a family of 4 or 5 to either purchase 4 or 5 7-day MYW tickets or 4 or 5 annual passes, adding up to thousands before you even get to reserving the hotel or gas or airfare money, is just completely out of reach of about half the population.

This is what everyone did when I was growing up. We never went to WDW as kids. But the few people that did go would drive down from NJ, stay with family or stay at a timeshare offsite, go to MK for ONE day, pack a lunch and then the rest of the vacation was an Orlando vacation.

These 7-10 day WDW vacations were unheard of. No one went to WDW for a WHOLE WEEK.

Even now I know 3 people who go to WDW regularly (every 1-2 years), stay onsite and do a whole WDW vacation. Most people I know still stay offsite in a condo or hotel, go to WDW for a day, Universal for 1-2 days, maybe SeaWorld for a day.

 

[BK2014]

Answer to number 1 see the 90's. Answer to number 2 Why build so many DVC properties if they don't care about repeat customers?

That is a good point. But my thought on that is that DVC is a good investment is for people who are happy with the WDW that they already know and love, not for the repeat customers who will get bored and want to see changes. That is not to say that DVC members may not want to see new additions or changes. I simply think that it would be risky to make such a big investment and return commitment without being happy with the product that already exists. Plus, since you are committed to returning, you put a lot of faith in WDW not taking away the aspects that you love and making changes that you hate. This of course, is my own opinion.

 

[flicx]

I think the point that the pp was trying to make was exactly what these numbers show. There has only been " record attendance " in mk since 2013, when they broke the 18 million mark for the first time since 1991.

Exactly! They have had big attendance numbers before. Then things dropped off a lot! History has been known to repeat itself. Especially if your company is helping it along by huge price increases and cutbacks and closures at every turn!

 

[Slapshot1188]

We will get a better idea when the next round of increases for MYW tickets comes out. But, I don't expect the increases for those tickets to be as high on a percentage basis as the increases for APs, especially for the non peak periods. I think Disney wants to encourage those infrequent visitors to spend their entire week at WDW, and the best way to do that is to offer tickets which offer low marginal prices for days after the 3 or 4 days it takes to visit each park.

I expect them to use tiered pricing. There will be a few "low" times which will see prices drop ever so slightly from current rates or even stay the same. Then you will have "regular" which will see a 5-8% bump. Then you will have "Peak" which will have a 20-25% bump. Knowing Disney it will be Bronze, Silver and Gold... they will also then hype how much money you save with the Bronze/Silver compared to the Gold!!! (Ignoring the fact that they just made Gold 20% more expensive!)

 

[lugnut33]

Actually Disney doesn't care if they run off 10k people because there's another 10k to take there place. Bottom line if a few hundred dollars on a once a year vacation is going to break you then you might want to take a deeper look into your finances. Prices increase on just about everything and most of the time you get the same thing or less, milk, gas, utilities, cable, health insurance.

Wow just wow all this "Disney sucks, Disney is evil money grabbers,Disney isn't a luxury vacation, the food isn't even that good" "I can have a much better vacation cheaper elsewhere" OK then go, go on have fun, more ADR's and one less person in line.

You probably need to go back and re-read the thread if that's what you think people are saying. This raise did NOT happen in a vacuum.

BTW, my DVC points are now listed for sale if you're interested. I'm selling not just because of this price increase, I'm selling because the value is not there any longer. I have seen a steady degradation in the return on my vacation dollars that were being spent at Disney. And before you say "good, Disney wants to get rid of you anyways because you didn't spend as much as a new customer", well on our last 8 day trip in August I spent just over $5K at Disney (does not include airline flights). I want to see a new guest staying at Pop Century keep up with that burn rate.

 

[wisblue]

I expect them to use tiered pricing. There will be a few "low" times which will see prices drop ever so slightly from current rates or even stay the same. Then you will have "regular" which will see a 5-8% bump. Then you will have "Peak" which will have a 20-25% bump. Knowing Disney it will be Bronze, Silver and Gold... they will also then hype how much money you save with the Bronze/Silver compared to the Gold!!! (Ignoring the fact that they just made Gold 20% more expensive!)

Beonze, silver, gold were the categories used in the surveys they sent out in the last year.

I expect that there will be some form of seasonal pricing too but, as I said in another thread, the key thing for me will be how they price the multiple day tickets, such as whether they still have a low marginal cost for days after the first 3 and how they price the hopper option.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

I expect them to use tiered pricing. There will be a few "low" times which will see prices drop ever so slightly from current rates or even stay the same. Then you will have "regular" which will see a 5-8% bump. Then you will have "Peak" which will have a 20-25% bump. Knowing Disney it will be Bronze, Silver and Gold... they will also then hype how much money you save with the Bronze/Silver compared to the Gold!!! (Ignoring the fact that they just made Gold 20% more expensive!)

There is no chance tiered pricing results in any kind of decrease. Where we are now will simply be the baseline everything else will increase from.

 

[WillAustin]

That is a good point. But my thought on that is that DVC is a good investment is for people who are happy with the WDW that they already know and love, not for the repeat customers who will get bored and want to see changes. That is not to say that DVC members may not want to see new additions or changes. I simply think that it would be risky to make such a big investment and return commitment without being happy with the product that already exists. Plus, since you are committed to returning, you put a lot of faith in WDW not taking away the aspects that you love and making changes that you hate. This of course, is my own opinion.

I'd guess that a lot of DVC owners were happy with the existing product at the time they bought it. When we looked into it I couldn't see a possibility that I'd be disenchanted with changes they might make. Now I'm glad we didn't buy in.