How Kneeling Became a Protest Symbol

[Darklord77]

"The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free. . . It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free."

I can't remember his name, but I heard a guy once say this:

And she's getting threadbare and wearing thin
But she's in good shape for the shape she's in
'Cause she's been through the fire before
And I believe she can take a whole lot more
So we raise her up every morning
We take her down every night
We don't let her touch the ground and we fold her up right
On second thought, I do like to brag
'Cause I'm mighty proud of that ragged old flag

also:

I hear people talkin' bad,
About the way they have to live here in this country
Harpin' on the wars we fight
And gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be
And I don't mind 'em switchin' sides
And standin' up for things they believe in
But when they're runnin' down our country, man
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

 

[tex1989]

So this is a very interesting topic. Over the years I have had numerous conversations about flags and the do's and don'ts. My Father served in WWII and Korea in the Navy. He respected the flag his entire life. But he also said that fighting for his country and respecting the flag also meant that because of the constitution, freedom of speech and all the things that made this country great also gave individuals the right to disrespect the flag. He hated that anyone would do that but understood that he fought for their right to do it.

As far as the kneeling goes, that is also their right to do so. Where that always sort of crossed the line for me was that if your boss or in this case team owner said don't do it then don't do it. I mean could a meat packing plant worker get off work and walk across the street and join the Peta protestors when he gets off work? I mean I work in the Energy business and if I became a leader of a highly public Green organization attempting to disrupt my companies operations in my off time, then they might take issue with it. Sure NFL players are highly visible and have a following for causes but if they choose to bite the hand so to speak then there may be consiquinces. Granted the NFL and Roger Goodell has come forward and said the NFL was wrong but that was not their stance then.

As far as rules for the flag, I do not believe they are laws, but rather rules. I am aware of this because as the president of our local Little League in years past I would receive a call, mail and numerous pamplets from our local VFW every time who ever was responsible for closing down the field that night forgot to take one of the American Flags down. (The flag should only be flown at night if there is a spot light on it)

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Here's an honest question for people upset with NFL players kneeling.:

They are kneeling for a reason, right? They are protesting something. Are you more upset with them, or with the other people in the stadium wearing their hats and talking and moving around during the anthem? Isn't that disrespecting the flag more? People walking up and down the stadium, getting food, goofing off, whatever? Isn't that worse? At least the NFL players are paying attention. Do you ever confront people who are just going about their business when the anthem plays? If no, why not?

 

[Searc]

Here's an honest question for people upset with NFL players kneeling.:

They are kneeling for a reason, right? They are protesting something. Are you more upset with them, or with the other people in the stadium wearing their hat and talking and moving around during the anthem? Isn't that disrespecting the flag more? People walking up and down the stadium, getting food, goofing off, whatever? Isn't that worse? At least the NFL players are paying attention. Do you ever confront people who are just going about their business when the anthem plays? If no, why not?

And if they don't stand at attention with their hand over their hearts at home whenever that song is played, they can sit their butts down right now.

 

[Canooknic]

Where is the outrage for this? A silent protest on the side line is more offensive than this?? Seriously??

 

[Darklord77]

Where is the outrage for this? A silent protest on the side line is more offensive than this?? Seriously??
View attachment 499977

As long as they stand for the national anthem, and maybe jump up and down a bit, I see no problem with it!

 

[Dan Murphy]

...just not during the National Anthem.

No, no. When there is the national anthem played at the Bulls games we go to, or to any other place where it is played, I stand tall with my right hand over my heart, hat off. If my grandkids are with me, and they forget, I remind them to do so also. However, just because I stand for the anthem, certainly does not mean somebody else who decides to kneel to bring attention to a cause, or for whatever reason, should not be allowed to do so. They are not, by kneeling, or whatever, disrespecting the flag. Not at all. I am exercising my right, they are also exercising theirs. If a person, ANY person, says it is disrespectful, they do not know what the Constitution says. We ALL, have our rights. And those rights do not state they one must stand during a national anthem.

 

[Darklord77]

At least the NFL players are paying attention.

You say paying attention. I say trying to GAIN attention.

 

[BrianL]

Here's an honest question for people upset with NFL players kneeling.:

They are kneeling for a reason, right? They are protesting something. Are you more upset with them, or with the other people in the stadium wearing their hats and talking and moving around during the anthem? Isn't that disrespecting the flag more? People walking up and down the stadium, getting food, goofing off, whatever? Isn't that worse? At least the NFL players are paying attention. Do you ever confront people who are just going about their business when the anthem plays? If no, why not?

This is one that I have always wondered about. It seems like tons of people in the stadium are not really paying attention to the anthem anyway. Sure, those at their seats will stand, but those in line for food/drink, using the restroom, etc. aren't doing anything special. It reminds me of this quote from The Simpsons as read by Michael Buffer before a boxing match:

"Due to popular demand we will forego our National Anthem."

That was a satirical point being made all the way back in 1996, which once again proves the way ahead-of-the-curve brilliance that is The Simpsons.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

You say paying attention. I say trying to GAIN attention.

 

[mrsap]

No, no. When there is the national anthem played at the Bulls games we go to, or to any other place where it is played, I stand tall with my right hand over my heart, hat off. If my grandkids are with me, and they forget, I remind them to do so also. However, just because I stand for the anthem, certainly does not mean somebody else who decides to kneel to bring attention to a cause, or for whatever reason, should not be allowed to do so. They are not, by kneeling, or whatever, disrespecting the flag. Not at all. I am exercising my right, they are also exercising theirs. If a person, ANY person, says it is disrespectful, they do not know what the Constitution says. We ALL, have our rights. And those rights do not state they one must stand during a national anthem.

But WHY do you stand?? Why do any American’s stand during the ‘flag salute?’ Not because we feel like it. It’s to Honor our military and our country. No, you don’t have to, but if you believe in WHY you SHOULD stand, then how can you say it’s ok to kneel? I just don’t get that part.

 

[shelemm]

As a family member of many who served in the military, including a WWII Veteran, I have too much respect for them to kneel, especially when we are honoring them.

Kneeling is and has always been considered respectful. Did you read my OP? It was proposed by an ex-Green Beret, although he said he wouldn't do it himself. Kaepernick was in mourning, and you don't fly the flag at full mast if you are in mourning. So in absence of that, he kneels. Not really different than flying the flag at half mast which is an accepted practice.

I am not a veteran, but I work almost exclusively with veterans, and many don't have a problem with it and respect what he's doing.

I too was shocked when I first heard about it. Where I went to college, everything stopped in its tracks for the national anthem. No admittance to the venue, no hot dog sales, everyone stood at attention, so I was not used to this act. But it's important to listen to other voices and not dismiss them. It's how we grow as human beings.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

People can protest. Never said they couldn’t. However, I don’t believe the time to do it is when we are saluting the flag and singing the national anthem. As a family member of many who served in the military, including a WWII Veteran, I have too much respect for them to kneel, especially when we are honoring them.

And this repetitive “time and place” is exactly why we are where are right now. Maybe if there had been less of that and more listening, we’d be further along. But they are exercising their Constitutional rights, so while you may not like it, it is absolutely the right time and place. I suggest you look beyond the what to the why.

And my family was career military and they don’t have a problem with it. If they aren’t offended, why should I be? I fully appreciate our serve members and all they’ve done for us, but putting limits on the freedoms they won for us, shouldn’t be one of them.

Again - you can do as you please. Never said you couldn’t. But your avatar does have to do with this conversation- it’s a contradiction to what you are pushing here. Just funny you should choose a flag as an avatar.

It’s not a contradiction. You can have respect for your flag AND respect for the players who exercised their Constitutional right. You can also believe that taking a knee isn’t disrespectful to service members or the flag. It’s not always an either/or.

 

[shelemm]

But WHY do you stand?? Why do any American’s stand during the ‘flag salute?’ Not because we feel like it. It’s to Honor our military and our country. No, you don’t have to, but if you believe in WHY you SHOULD stand, then how can you say it’s ok to kneel? I just don’t get that part.

In answer to your question: Do you object when they fly the flag at half mast? How is that OK? Kneeling is an act of respect while you are in mourning. That's the reason why he took that action, and it was recommended to him by a Green Beret.

 

[Darklord77]

If a person, ANY person, says it is disrespectful, they do not know what the Constitution says. We ALL, have our rights. And those rights do not state they one must stand during a national anthem.

Correct. It's not in the Constitution, even the US Code is guidance and not an enforceable law. However, it is disrespectful. It's disrespectful to every soldier and sailor who followed that flag into battle. It's disrespectful to every man and woman who died on a battlefield with that flag sewn on their uniform. Some see it different and disagree. That's fine.

No, you don’t have to, but if you believe in WHY you SHOULD stand, then how can you say it’s ok to kneel? I just don’t get that part.

People want to play on both sides of the fence. Chalk it up to the PC police or the cancel culture, no one wants to feel the wrath of this small segment of society because they do yell the loudest.

 

[BrianL]

But WHY do you stand?? Why do any American’s stand during the ‘flag salute?’ Not because we feel like it. It’s to Honor our military and our country. No, you don’t have to, but if you believe in WHY you SHOULD stand, then how can you say it’s ok to kneel? I just don’t get that part.

I think what some are saying is not that they agree with it but that they respect the right to do it. The below quote sums up the ideal of free speech, something America holds dear:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

 

[mrsap]

Kaepernick was in mourning

It’s so hard for me to respect anyone who protests our flag, let alone someone who does it wearing socks with pictures of cops depicted as pigs on them.

 

[Colleen27]

It also might benefit us to review the history of why the National Anthem and Flag have been recently incorporated into our sporting events.

I just spent a few minutes on the internet with a few articles.

Interesting info out there.

Yeah, not that long ago the players weren't even expected to be on the field for the anthem.

But I know I'm not a True Patriot™ - I still miss when we sang Take Me Out To The Ballgame during the 7th inning stretch, rather than God Bless America (which we are also, apparently, now required to stand for or face the drunken wrath of those in the stands around us).

 

[shelemm]

In answer to your question: Do you object when they fly the flag at half mast? How is that OK? Kneeling is an act of respect while you are in mourning. That's the reason why he took that action, and it was recommended to him by a Green Beret.

Correct. It's not in the Constitution, even the US Code is guidance and not an enforceable law. However, it is disrespectful. It's disrespectful to every soldier and sailor who followed that flag into battle. It's disrespectful to every man and woman who died on a battlefield with that flag sewn on their uniform. Some see it different and disagree. That's fine.


People want to play on both sides of the fence. Chalk it up to the PC police or the cancel culture, no one wants to feel the wrath of this small segment of society because they do yell the loudest.

The issue of disrespect has been addressed many times over. Please give your reason for not accepting it. You need to listen to other voices. I changed my mind about it and so can you.

 

[DopeyDame]

What are your thoughts on hugging a flag? Like full on two arms, pressed close to the body embrace?

We're in the middle of a pandemic. You can elbow-bump a flag if you really must, but generally, no hugging and remain six feet away from the flag at all times.