Dis Unplugged 6/9/20 - A question about the black experience at Walt Disney World

[Lizgistix]

Many people are calling for Splash to be re-themed to Princess and the Frog. I will support what makes everyone feel safe and comfortable in the park, and what we do to make sure the park reflects and IS an inclusive environment.

I'm all for it. Princess and the Frog needs more than just a princess meet and an appearance in the afternoon parade. Walt himself said his parks aren't museums, so why not update Splash to something more current?

 

[Tonyz]

I'm all for it. Princess and the Frog needs more than just a princess meet and an appearance in the afternoon parade. Walt himself said his parks aren't museums, so why not update Splash to something more current?

Yes the parks aren’t museums but I think we should have some respect for the classics. There are some “untouchables” on property. But that doesn’t mean other things can’t change.

 

[The WDW 3]

I’m all for a change of Splash Mountain, but how does the Princess and the Frog fit there? That would fit as well as converting the Tower of Terror to 101 Dalmatians. Or the Contemporary putting in an Incredibles themed restaurant. Don’t put a square peg in a round hole. Give the Princes and the Frog a proper attraction if that’s what people want.

 

[JacknSally]

I have to say that I was very excited to come back and see that this thread is on 3 pages! It's very heartening to see that people want to have this conversation and also that we (speaking for myself as a black woman but including all persons of color) can share things that we may have held close to us for fear of judgment (you're overreacting, not EVERYONE is like that, etc...).

I have had a some feelings on the subjects of the former Dixie Landings, Song of the South, Splash Mountain theme, even the crows in Dumbo. I think that deserves it's own thread honestly! There's so much to unpack there. Personally, never chose (and my parents when they were the ones spending the bucks to take me) to stay at Dixie Landing simply because of the connotations. That's a reflection of my comfort level. I have a much longer and deeper reason for feeling this way so i won't derail too much!

I just wanted to say a "thank you" to everyone who has shared even a small part of their story and experience here, and please continue to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing if you want to do so! Thank you OP for starting this thread, too!

As for the other subjects you mentioned, TummyGirl, I for one would love to hear your thoughts on them, be it here or in another post, should you ever decide to share them.



Removed my question about POR since RapunzelIsMyHomegirl cleared up the wording thing

 

[RapunzelIsMyHomeGirl]

I just wanted to say a "thank you" to everyone who has shared even a small part of their story and experience here, and please continue to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing if you want to do so! Thank you OP for starting this thread, too!

As for the other subjects you mentioned, TummyGirl, I for one would love to hear your thoughts on them, be it here or in another post, should you ever decide to share them.

I do have a question, if y'all don't mind. I certainly don't want anyone to feel like I'm asking them to do any work on my behalf; I was just hoping to continue this conversation a little. Please no one feel obligated to respond!

To the PPs who have mentioned their discomfort with Riverside specifically - in your opinion, is there anything Disney could do with this property as it exists now that would make it less uncomfortable, or would the property need a complete remodel? Genuinely asking, without any snark to my question. I know changing the name from Dixie Landings to Riverside and dropping the cotton images were assumed to be efforts to get away from the problematic context it originally had, but obviously that didn't change what the buildings look like. If they stop describing them as "plantation-style complexes" as others have suggested and describe them as "southern-style mansions" or something along those lines, is that an actual improvement, or does it fall short? Again, I mean those questions genuinely and without any trace of snark or sarcasm.

I admit in my ignorance (and privilege and naivety) that before the last few weeks, I hadn't made the link between the Magnolia Bend buildings and plantations. I absolutely should've! I just saw them as the old southern mansions that are common in the region - but duh, JnS, obviously the originals that inspired MB were once plantations. So thank you to all the PPs who brought this up!

Disney no longer refers to them as plantations but as "mansions". The citations for the verbiage earlier in the thread were non-Disney owned sites.

What does PP stand for?

 

[JacknSally]

Disney no longer refers to them as plantations but as "mansions". The citations for the verbiage earlier in the thread were non-Disney owned sites.

What does PP stand for?

Thank you for the clarification about the wording!

PPs = previous posters

 

[RapunzelIsMyHomeGirl]

Thank you for the clarification about the wording!

PPs = previous posters

thanks for teaching me the abbreviation. I've always used OP but never knew PP.

 

[Heather07438]

I realize this isn't a WDW perspective but thought this was a great place to share this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268794618461618177

"As the Commander of Pacific Air Forces, a senior leader in our Air Force, and an African-American, many of you may be wondering what I’m thinking about the current events surrounding the tragic death of George Floyd. Here’s what I’m thinking about..." - Gen. CQ Brown, Jr.

 

[kylenne]

I'm conflicted on this one.

It was obvious all the cotton references had to go. Then there's the back story of the brothers, one went out to the quiet bayou and the other Colonel living the big life on the plantation. It's enough to make the mind wander and fill in the blanks.

I think it's fine to celebrate the south, just need to be aware of details that can be misconstrued to make it feel like it's celebrating something else. For better and worse, much of the culture included plantation estates. If all references of plantations were removed, does that go too far in the other direction, kinda like trying to erase it happened. Could this be something WDW considered, or did they just overlook it? How do people of color feel about it?

I can only speak for myself obviously but I absolutely despise POR and I’ll never set foot in it. Even when I stayed at POFQ I didn’t go over there. The truth is that changing the name and backstory details does nothing to change the architectural stylings and the aesthetic. The “mansions” are plantation houses whether they call them that or not (and I’m extra insulted that they chose to have Tiana of all characters welcoming you to them). The entire theme is still Antebellum South. This era is a tremendous source of pain for many Black Americans with roots in the South. Not exactly something I associate with my happy place. Do I think it’s intentionally hurtful? No. But I think it speaks to the lack of diversity within WDI that there was no one in the room to say, “hey, maybe theming a whole resort around an era especially painful for some of our guests is a bad idea”.

I did not watch the episode this week because I’ve been very busy at work, but to speak on my own experience as a black woman, who is also queer...I have experienced racial microaggressions in the World like anywhere else. Never from CMs, ever! I want to make that clear. And not all white guests, either; one of the reasons I love the parks so much is getting to meet people from all over and bonding over our love of Disney. I’ve had so many wonderful conversations with guests of different backgrounds in queues, etc. But there are definitely times where I am very much reminded of my blackness in this space. Especially as a frequent guest of Deluxe resorts. There’s the “benign” sort of stuff, like the tipsy white lady who gushed a little bit too long about how beautiful my hair was at Brown Derby Lounge and got awkwardly laughed off before she could ask to touch it. But I also feel unkind stares on me at times, the “what are YOU doing here?” looks, always from other guests. There’s an ugly and territorial sort of ignorance at work, as though a black woman couldn’t possibly afford these things. More than once I’ve been asked if I was in the right line for Magical Express for instance (notably not on my POFQ stay). Probably the most egregious example though was when my gf and I had massages at Senses over at the Grand, and as soon as we walked into the ladies lounge, every one of those ladies—all white—stared at me like I had two heads. My purple hair probably didn’t help, but it felt very racial, as if I had invaded their space. I ignored them and sipped my tea lol.

The thing is, from a young age, I’ve been used to being the only or one of a few black faces in white dominated spaces. I know how to navigate these situations and I don’t let anyone make me feel like I don’t belong. I also want to make it clear that the negative experiences are not the whole of it at all. So much more has been positive.

So yes, the Disney bubble does let me forget for a little while, but it doesn’t keep everything away all the time.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Disney no longer refers to them as plantations but as "mansions". The citations for the verbiage earlier in the thread were non-Disney owned sites.

What does PP stand for?

One of the sites I found that still used it was the Disney Mom's Panel, but yeah, the main Disney site seems to have very brief overview and doesn't use the term "plantation" in it

 

[kylenne]

On a positive note though: I broke down and cried like a baby when I met Tiana at Princess Fairytale Hall a couple of years ago. I was not expecting that kind of reaction at all from myself, even though I’ve cosplayed her before at comic cons and gotten the same reaction from little kids! But something about seeing a black princess, in a space like that...I guess I’d been waiting for it my whole life. I apologized to her for crying and said it was because when I was growing up, I never had a princess who looked like me. People talk a lot about representation mattering, myself included, but it really hit me then. When she hugged me, I felt like a little girl again. When people talk about The Magic, that’s the first thing I think about.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I’m all for a change of Splash Mountain, but how does the Princess and the Frog fit there? That would fit as well as converting the Tower of Terror to 101 Dalmatians. Or the Contemporary putting in an Incredibles themed restaurant. Don’t put a square peg in a round hole. Give the Princes and the Frog a proper attraction if that’s what people want.

I think it fits ok - or the imaginers can make the story fit.

Thinking specifically of WDW the idea is to move East (Philadelphia) to West and also through time (starting in the lat 18th century, going to late 19th century with Big Thunder Mtn) ... So putting PatF at where Splash is put it in between East and West and timeframe isn't too far per (PatF is like 1920's)

Not saying it is perfect but I think it can fit there without too many mental gymnastics

 

[Heather07438]

I can only speak for myself obviously but I absolutely despise POR and I’ll never set foot in it. Even when I stayed at POFQ I didn’t go over there. The truth is that changing the name and backstory details does nothing to change the architectural stylings and the aesthetic. The “mansions” are plantation houses whether they call them that or not (and I’m extra insulted that they chose to have Tiana of all characters welcoming you to them). The entire theme is still Antebellum South. This era is a tremendous source of pain for many Black Americans with roots in the South. Not exactly something I associate with my happy place. Do I think it’s intentionally hurtful? No. But I think it speaks to the lack of diversity within WDI that there was no one in the room to say, “hey, maybe theming a whole resort around an era especially painful for some of our guests is a bad idea”.

I did not watch the episode this week because I’ve been very busy at work, but to speak on my own experience as a black woman, who is also queer...I have experienced racial microaggressions in the World like anywhere else. Never from CMs, ever! I want to make that clear. And not all white guests, either; one of the reasons I love the parks so much is getting to meet people from all over and bonding over our love of Disney. I’ve had so many wonderful conversations with guests of different backgrounds in queues, etc. But there are definitely times where I am very much reminded of my blackness in this space. Especially as a frequent guest of Deluxe resorts. There’s the “benign” sort of stuff, like the tipsy white lady who gushed a little bit too long about how beautiful my hair was at Brown Derby Lounge and got awkwardly laughed off before she could ask to touch it. But I also feel unkind stares on me at times, the “what are YOU doing here?” looks, always from other guests. There’s an ugly and territorial sort of ignorance at work, as though a black woman couldn’t possibly afford these things. More than once I’ve been asked if I was in the right line for Magical Express for instance (notably not on my POFQ stay). Probably the most egregious example though was when my gf and I had massages at Senses over at the Grand, and as soon as we walked into the ladies lounge, every one of those ladies—all white—stared at me like I had two heads. My purple hair probably didn’t help, but it felt very racial, as if I had invaded their space. I ignored them and sipped my tea lol.

The thing is, from a young age, I’ve been used to being the only or one of a few black faces in white dominated spaces. I know how to navigate these situations and I don’t let anyone make me feel like I don’t belong. I also want to make it clear that the negative experiences are not the whole of it at all. So much more has been positive.

So yes, the Disney bubble does let me forget for a little while, but it doesn’t keep everything away all the time.

Thanks Kylenne for more clarity on POR. TummyGirl was helpful too.

As you were posting that I was having a conversation with DS17 that was started by asking him if any of his online hang outs are having conversations about the black experience. He shared what he was just learning in the Magic the Gathering forums and I shared what we've discussed here about WDW, POR in particular. I think I get it now, something like that which makes people uncomfortable doesn't really have a worthwhile quality. Plantation has to go. At first I wondered if maybe it could err on trying to remove all mention of past atrocities (because we see some of that in history) but yeah, there are many better environments to deal with that.

 

[TresGriffin]

I can only speak for myself obviously but I absolutely despise POR and I’ll never set foot in it. Even when I stayed at POFQ I didn’t go over there. The truth is that changing the name and backstory details does nothing to change the architectural stylings and the aesthetic. The “mansions” are plantation houses whether they call them that or not (and I’m extra insulted that they chose to have Tiana of all characters welcoming you to them). The entire theme is still Antebellum South. This era is a tremendous source of pain for many Black Americans with roots in the South. Not exactly something I associate with my happy place. Do I think it’s intentionally hurtful? No. But I think it speaks to the lack of diversity within WDI that there was no one in the room to say, “hey, maybe theming a whole resort around an era especially painful for some of our guests is a bad idea”.

I did not watch the episode this week because I’ve been very busy at work, but to speak on my own experience as a black woman, who is also queer...I have experienced racial microaggressions in the World like anywhere else. Never from CMs, ever! I want to make that clear. And not all white guests, either; one of the reasons I love the parks so much is getting to meet people from all over and bonding over our love of Disney. I’ve had so many wonderful conversations with guests of different backgrounds in queues, etc. But there are definitely times where I am very much reminded of my blackness in this space. Especially as a frequent guest of Deluxe resorts. There’s the “benign” sort of stuff, like the tipsy white lady who gushed a little bit too long about how beautiful my hair was at Brown Derby Lounge and got awkwardly laughed off before she could ask to touch it. But I also feel unkind stares on me at times, the “what are YOU doing here?” looks, always from other guests. There’s an ugly and territorial sort of ignorance at work, as though a black woman couldn’t possibly afford these things. More than once I’ve been asked if I was in the right line for Magical Express for instance (notably not on my POFQ stay). Probably the most egregious example though was when my gf and I had massages at Senses over at the Grand, and as soon as we walked into the ladies lounge, every one of those ladies—all white—stared at me like I had two heads. My purple hair probably didn’t help, but it felt very racial, as if I had invaded their space. I ignored them and sipped my tea lol.

The thing is, from a young age, I’ve been used to being the only or one of a few black faces in white dominated spaces. I know how to navigate these situations and I don’t let anyone make me feel like I don’t belong. I also want to make it clear that the negative experiences are not the whole of it at all. So much more has been positive.

So yes, the Disney bubble does let me forget for a little while, but it doesn’t keep everything away all the time.

This. All of this.

 

[sweetpeama]

Well said about the “she’s so pretty” nonsense. I tried to brush it off just so it wouldn’t continue and make her (even more) potentially uncomfortable. But kudos to you for addressing it with eloquence.

But no to re-theming Splash Mountain. Do whatever else you want, but don’t touch Splash.

Looking at Splash Mountain just from the fact that those who know the story are getting fewer and fewer it needs to be changed to some other theme. I am in my late 40s and I remember watching Song of the South on TV (we had 3 channels so it wasn't on cable) when I was around 7 or 8 years old. If you figure that the odds of anyone under age 40 having seen Song of the South (yes I know you can find bootleg copies online all the time) from a legitimate source that a link will remain stable is low.

https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf
Using the 2010 percentage of the US population by age groups and further making an assumption that the 25-44 year old group is spread equally across all the age groups making each age in that group 1.4% of the population multiplied by 5 years (40, 41, 42, 43, 44) and then adding that number to the 45-64 age group and the 65 and older age group results in 46.4% of the population being in an age demographic that they might have seen it at some point before Disney pulled the movie.

Going off the 46% of adults in the US have seen a movie in a theater in the past 12 months according to this site

https://www.statista.com/statistics...=During a survey in June,once or year or less.

aproximately 21.344% of the population has seen Song of the South in a theater rounding it up to 35% to account for those who have also seen it on video and you still have 65% of the population that has not seen this show. As those in the 65 and older age group reach the end of their lives and pass away this number is only going to grow.

So the next question is what to change the theme to keeping in mind that there is water flowing in the ride. So what familiar Disney Movies have a significant amount of water in theme that there is not already an attraction.

Leo and Stitch-but that is more of an ocean and not along a stream, creek (not a creek too slow moving for that), a river is more appropriate.

The Princess and the Frog-has water and is at the appropriate sizing for the type of water

Tangled-again has water and is appropriate but having a dramatic drop is not the best for a your floating along watching the beautiful floating laterns to end with so eliminate that idea.

Moana again more of an ocean type story.

Jungle Book-appropriate water sizing and speed of the water moving but there is already Jungle Cruise and does a Jungle book themed attraction belong more appropriately in Animal Kingdom and not Magic Kingdom. In my opinion yes.

This brings us back to The Princess and The Frog as a theming suggestion to change Splash Mountain too in the near future (please do not start any more construction until the ones that are ongoing are complete or if it can not be completed in time for the 50th anniversary of Magic Kingdom) so Splash Mountain Theming at both Magic Kingdom and Disneyland should be changed to a Princess and the Frog Theming.

 

[DisGuy101]

Looking at Splash Mountain just from the fact that those who know the story are getting fewer and fewer it needs to be changed to some other theme. I am in my late 40s and I remember watching Song of the South on TV (we had 3 channels so it wasn't on cable) when I was around 7 or 8 years old. If you figure that the odds of anyone under age 40 having seen Song of the South (yes I know you can find bootleg copies online all the time) from a legitimate source that a link will remain stable is low.

https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf
Using the 2010 percentage of the US population by age groups and further making an assumption that the 25-44 year old group is spread equally across all the age groups making each age in that group 1.4% of the population multiplied by 5 years (40, 41, 42, 43, 44) and then adding that number to the 45-64 age group and the 65 and older age group results in 46.4% of the population being in an age demographic that they might have seen it at some point before Disney pulled the movie.

Going off the 46% of adults in the US have seen a movie in a theater in the past 12 months according to this site

https://www.statista.com/statistics...=During a survey in June,once or year or less.

aproximately 21.344% of the population has seen Song of the South in a theater rounding it up to 35% to account for those who have also seen it on video and you still have 65% of the population that has not seen this show. As those in the 65 and older age group reach the end of their lives and pass away this number is only going to grow.

So the next question is what to change the theme to keeping in mind that there is water flowing in the ride. So what familiar Disney Movies have a significant amount of water in theme that there is not already an attraction.

Leo and Stitch-but that is more of an ocean and not along a stream, creek (not a creek too slow moving for that), a river is more appropriate.

The Princess and the Frog-has water and is at the appropriate sizing for the type of water

Tangled-again has water and is appropriate but having a dramatic drop is not the best for a your floating along watching the beautiful floating laterns to end with so eliminate that idea.

Moana again more of an ocean type story.

Jungle Book-appropriate water sizing and speed of the water moving but there is already Jungle Cruise and does a Jungle book themed attraction belong more appropriately in Animal Kingdom and not Magic Kingdom. In my opinion yes.

This brings us back to The Princess and The Frog as a theming suggestion to change Splash Mountain too in the near future (please do not start any more construction until the ones that are ongoing are complete or if it can not be completed in time for the 50th anniversary of Magic Kingdom) so Splash Mountain Theming at both Magic Kingdom and Disneyland should be changed to a Princess and the Frog Theming.

Personally, I believe Disney has already done enough by deciding to pull Song of the South. Sure, Splash Mountain was created based off of certain characters from a tone deaf movie, but the ride itself tries hard to omit those aspects.

I love slash mountain and would not want it to change for anything.

 

[kylenne]

Sidestepping the Splash talk for a sec, but if we're talking about theming and IPs, this is where I have to lament the legal issues limiting the use of Marvel in the FL parks for the hundredth time because Black Panther would be such a perfect fit for the parks, and that was a massive juggernaut of a movie financially, much more so than GotG. Only Endgame made more domestically. It was also a cultural phenomenon in a different way than just your standard Marvel blockbusters. If they just had to stick a coaster in Future World, instead of the dubious handwaving they came up with to justify GotG, can you imagine if they were able to theme it to BP instead? People talked about having a "Stark Expo" to sort of be a next gen Innoventions or Communicore, but given Wakanda's technology, it could easily be imagined as one of Shuri's outreach projects, with an emphasis on encouraging STEM (to bring it back to the old school edutainment mission). And imagine an Jedi Training Academy type of experience for the kiddos with the Dora Milaje. Due to the themes of the movie (advanced technology being in harmony with the natural environment, rich and diverse cultures, etc) there is so much untapped potential for it to be not just a thoughtless IP cash grab but something genuinely organic that fits in with the themes and missions of the parks. (AK also!)

And none of this has to be preachy either, btw. I'm just really sad it'll never happen because of lawyers.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Sidestepping the Splash talk for a sec, but if we're talking about theming and IPs, this is where I have to lament the legal issues limiting the use of Marvel in the FL parks for the hundredth time because Black Panther would be such a perfect fit for the parks, and that was a massive juggernaut of a movie financially, much more so than GotG. Only Endgame made more domestically. It was also a cultural phenomenon in a different way than just your standard Marvel blockbusters. If they just had to stick a coaster in Future World, instead of the dubious handwaving they came up with to justify GotG, can you imagine if they were able to theme it to BP instead? People talked about having a "Stark Expo" to sort of be a next gen Innoventions or Communicore, but given Wakanda's technology, it could easily be imagined as one of Shuri's outreach projects, with an emphasis on encouraging STEM (to bring it back to the old school edutainment mission). And imagine an Jedi Training Academy type of experience for the kiddos with the Dora Milaje. Due to the themes of the movie (advanced technology being in harmony with the natural environment, rich and diverse cultures, etc) there is so much untapped potential for it to be not just a thoughtless IP cash grab but something genuinely organic that fits in with the themes and missions of the parks. (AK also!)

And none of this has to be preachy either, btw. I'm just really sad it'll never happen because of lawyers.

I do recall a discussion on the boards of if they could bring Wakanda to EPCOT .... the thinking was that due to legal restrictions the character of Black Panther cannot be used but could Wakanda with no Black Panther be use?

What I saw was more if it could be positioned as one of the World Showcase countries (thus, the focus on the land not the character) - but would show off the nature and the technology of what is seen in the movies

 

[kylenne]

I do recall a discussion on the boards of if they could bring Wakanda to EPCOT .... the thinking was that due to legal restrictions the character of Black Panther cannot be used but could Wakanda with no Black Panther be use?

What I saw was more if it could be positioned as one of the World Showcase countries (thus, the focus on the land not the character) - but would show off the nature and the technology of what is seen in the movies

Tbh I would feel deeply weird about sticking Wakanda in WS for the same reason I agreed with the outrage of shoehorning Frozen into Norway. Fictional countries in WS make the 80s Epcot kid in me feel bad. I would much rather see that awful placeholder feeling "African outpost" go and have a real African country added (yes, Morocco exists but it's not enough).

As much as I love Pandora and see no problem with its inclusion in AK, the justifications used for it being there actually make way more sense for a Wakanda land. And while I obviously would want to see black Imagineers in a prominent role if it ever happened, I also think I would trust Joe Rohde with that project considering the love and care that went into Harambe and the Asia section of the park.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I realize that the reason AK is one of my favorite parks is because it feels much more like it follows the mission of edutainment and cultural immersion than modern Epcot does.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Tbh I would feel deeply weird about sticking Wakanda in WS for the same reason I agreed with the outrage of shoehorning Frozen into Norway. Fictional countries in WS make the 80s Epcot kid in me feel bad. I would much rather see that awful placeholder feeling "African outpost" go and have a real African country added (yes, Morocco exists but it's not enough).

As much as I love Pandora and see no problem with its inclusion in AK, the justifications used for it being there actually make way more sense for a Wakanda land. And while I obviously would want to see black Imagineers in a prominent role if it ever happened, I also think I would trust Joe Rohde with that project considering the love and care that went into Harambe and the Asia section of the park.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I realize that the reason AK is one of my favorite parks is because it feels much more like it follows the mission of edutainment and cultural immersion than modern Epcot does.

yeah, there was definitely debate/discussion about if it made sense or not - was more of just trying to think of a way to get around the marvel restrictions.

There are always rumors about retheming Dinoland in AK, maybe Wakandaland could go there? The focus of AK is on sustainability and concervation and learning about the natural world - maybe the focus there could be on how technology enables that?